Transcript
Index
00:00:00
[NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain
errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.]Bill Hamade: 00:00:00 My name is Bill Hamade. I'm 68 years old and my hometown
is Toronto, Ontario, Canada.Anna Takada: 00:00:07 Okay. And, um, can you tell me just a little bit about
yourself, where you're from and, um, well we'll start with where you're from, where you, where you've been.BH: 00:00:24 I was born in Toronto. And my parents met in the 50s. And I went to
public school high school there. I went to university outside of Toronto in a city called Waterloo and also London, Ontario. I returned to Toronto as a librarian and, uh, I worked as a library in the Toronto Public Library System for 31 years. Then I retired a couple of years ago when I was 58. And, um, one of the things that relate to this is that I really wanted to maintain or look at my family history and I made that kind of a lifetime thing that I've been doing and it's opened my eyes to a lot of things, but not only for the history of the Japanese Canadians, but also the personal stories that my own family had done, had gone through. Um, with their experience in Canada from the late 1890s, right up to the present day.AT: 00:01:34 And can you tell me about, um, how and when you started to get
interested in, in this history and starting to do your own research?BH: 00:01:45 I got interested in the history a little bit in high school, but in
university I have a history degree. I decided in my fourth year, not my third year, to start doing information to do research on the experience. Uh, one of the first things I did in my third year was I did the use of newspapers as a propaganda tool for, uh, interning Japanese Canadians. And what I did is I took all the national papers from Vancouver all the way to Halifax to see how many articles and what kind of reporting would be done on the community and how it also of course, was the results and the attitudes of the public at large to the internment. And the need to in their eyes or whether it was something they didn't think was really necessary. Then my fourth year, I, uh, did research on the internment itself, but also on the, um, possibility of, uh, Redress. And, um, I met with a couple of fairly prominent Japanese Canadians. Ken Adachi wrote a book called The Enemy That Never Was. I spoke to him about doing some primary research at the, um, the National Library of Canada and, and the other information that we might have within the community. The other person was George Tanaka who was a, um, uh, a person at the time, following the war, with the Japanese Canadian Citizens League I believe it was called. And they had at that time, already, started the movement towards trying to find out and trying to, um, uh, have advocate for getting Redress or, or some kind of compensation for the Japanese Canadians. As well as looking at having the Japanese Canadians be able to go back to Vancouver, and to the, um, the West Coast. But that was impossible. The government would not let Japanese Canadians go back within a hundred miles of the West Coast. So that was the kind of thing that I would research.AT: 00:03:59 Even are you talking about during the.
BH: 00:04:04 This is the 1950s, actually in the 50s, that they were already
looking at the injustice and then coming up with ways of doing this. And I believe the Japanese community also had the, um, the, um, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the, um, there was another group, the in Canada, that's called a CCF party. It's a Canadian Cooperative Federation, which later became the new Democratic Party. It was a, a left wing party, but they also advocated for the Japanese Canadians and they were also trying to try to achieve justice for them as well too. So they provided lawyers and legal, um, information and support from the community. So I, um, was very interested in that type of thing. When I did this research, it was before 1988 before the Redress Movement. So I, um, was quite interested in that. I didn't get as involved in the Movement itself. It looked like there was a lot of people in there already doing it, but, um, it was always that kind of thing. Uh, and that of course also sparked, spurred my, um, uh, continuation of wanting to do family research of all too. So as I said, it was over 30 years ago that I started doing this. And, uh, I probably didn't ask my grandparents, my parents enough questions cause it was, it was fairly hard for them. Though my father, who had been 24 when he was interned and was a Japanese National. He, uh, was not one of the ones that was as bitter as say, some of my, um, other uncles and aunts who were born in Canada. Although my father had come to Canada, when he was 10 years old. Um, were very, very, some of them were very bitter about what had happened, justifiably, but that's what happened.AT: 00:06:03 Um, and before we get into your actual family story, I do want to
ask a few more questions. Um, so when you were, when you were growing up, um, was there any kind of, uh, what, what was the extent of this particular history being included in, say, a U.S. History class or, you know, was it, um, was it publicly, did people know about it or?BH: 00:06:40 I don't think people really did. Um, I didn't, I don't think I knew
until later on in high school when you hear kind of things about it and the book The Enemy That Never Was, came out, I believe in the 70s. And so that did draw some attention to it. Also in Canada, the War Measures Act, which was the act that they used in Canada to intern the Japanese had been, uh, involved by, uh, Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, Justin Trudeau's father, uh, to deal with the problems that were happening in Quebec. And, um, and I think that's when it came out that it's not, things happen again. And so, um, uh, my understanding is that's when it kind of came to the forefront again. Um, the Japanese Canadian community also had celebrated a centennial in Canada in 1977. I think that in the multiculturalism, um, in Canada seemed to be developing quite a bit then. So people were looking at the roots again and seeing the kinds of things that were going on. And that's probably how I'd gone into it as well too. I didn't and I realized, oh, this happened to my father and all my grandparents and uh, and that was kind of, um, uh, a little obviously a shock, but then it, it, uh, to answer your question, it really didn't come out. I don't think in the education system that has the later, of course, and I, and probably the same as in the United States, but, uh, it's something that, uh, we would never know. I even know to tell my own son now that this happened to his parents and grandparents, and I have friends, contemporaries of mine, that never realized. I remember someone a few years ago that had no clue that my parents have been ah interned.AT: 00:08:42 Um, does that mean, um, you didn't grow up talking about it with
your family or you didn't? Did you learn about it through school and then you started inquiring?AT: 00:08:53 Um, my father was at much, much more open about discussing it and
uh, which I found interesting, but he, that was just his personality. He wasn't driven to tears. He just talked about the whole situation. He became an advocate, I think of human rights and labor rights, and I firmly believe it was because of, you know, he was, he was really looking after the underdog. Um, and so I, I think most of what I got was starting with him, my own kind of, um, studied all of this because of my history background. But then of course it did come out afterwards. It did become, I think, part of the educational system and something that was just there with the multiculturalism part of it too.AT: 00:09:43 So that means that you first learned of it through your family?
BH: 00:09:46 I believe. Yeah, yes.
AT: 00:09:50 I know this, I know that's a long time ago. You might not
necessarily remember.BH: 00:09:56 It was 40 years ago, I guess over 40 years ago. This all started
coming up. Yeah. But I'm pretty sure that's the way it was.AT: 00:10:06 Um, so if we could move into, um, what you've learned about, about
your family history. I would love to hear, um, what you maybe start with what you knew from your family just from, from conversations and things like that. And then maybe we can go into what you found from your own research?BH: 00:10:29 Okay. Um, through my own family, I, the most of the information as
I said, came from my father. He, um, told me that he was in a camp, in an internment camp in a place called Lemon Creek, which was in the Interior British Columbia. And he had also worked in road camps because he was a Japanese National. The government in Canada said on February 26th that they were going to do this with, with, uh, with the community. And he was shipped out on March 2nd. So literally four days later he was sent to Jasper, Alberta, which is now a National Park, but he was there on a road camp and he was only there for three months because there was a big flood. And then he said that he was sent back towards, the internment camp in Lemon Creek where his parents and his younger siblings were. He had, he told me, one of his brothers who was not very happy, with the whole situation had been sent to a more of a, another detention camp where the, the Japanese who were not being cooperative justifiably so, to Ontario and it was a different kind of work camp. And um, other than that, he would say that his youngest brother who was born in the camp in 1941, and uh, he was 24 years younger than my father. My father was born in 1917 and came, came to Japan in 1928. And there was some of the other things that my father told me. So that came out in relation to the Japanese National thing where he, it was his experience and was quite unique his parents of course were in the same boat, but he was a young person that was doing this. He also.AT: 00:12:23 So his parents came as well to the U.S.? Oh, I'm sorry to Canada?
BH: 00:12:23 Um, yes, my, uh, his mother came in 1919 and his father around the
same time as well too. So they were, my grandmother I think was only 20, 21 when she first came to Canada and my father was, uh, her grandfather, my grandfather was 24 then they went back cause my, my father stayed with his grandmother until 1928 my grandmother went back and brought him, brought him to Canada. And, um, my grandmother's grandfather had also been to Canada, which I didn't know and he came in 1899 and already had and had some fishing boats and my father worked on these fishing boats. So they were, that was most of the story of, of the family that I got from him. Um, my mother's side of the family was different. I don't know if you want me to speak about that. Um, my mother, um, was born in Canada on Vancouver Island in 1920, 1923. And at that time, the Japanese community wasn't as structured on the island as it was in Vancouver. And, and it wasn't just there but everywhere. A lot of Japanese children were sent back to Japan for a proper education. And so she was taken back by her mother in 1926 when she was three years old to their hometown and in Fukuoko Ken in a small village called Kurume. And, um, so she, she lived there, but her parents and her two sisters stayed in Canada and, uh, uh, they were, my grandfather worked in a, um, a lumber camp in a place in Duncan and was called the Hillcrest Lumber. And there was a lot of Japanese Canadians that had, had done that and there was a lot of Japanese Canadians who were born and raised or worked on Vancouver Island. And they were interned as well. And, uh, coincidentally they also went to the same, um, internment camp that my paternal grandparents went to and they had, they had not known each other at that time. So that was an interesting coincidence. Uh, just as a little funny story, when my grandmother, my maternal grandmother met a, heard that my father was going to marry my mother, I guess she had known him from the camp and said, I don't like that guy. And so it was, uh, it was, it was a interesting thing. And then I, but my father didn't go into much detail about that and my four grandparents really couldn't speak very much English. And I think they had probably more of a harder time because they had built all their lives and, and uh, I think would have been difficult to talk to them about that. I remember my maternal, my paternal grandmother had kinda just waved her hand like this, and they'd lost a couple of stores in Vancouver and all the channels and the car and um, these were to my grandparents just built it up over 24, 25 years and well over 30 years. And my great grandfather lost his fishing boats as well. And so that was, that was all the stuff that I had found out more through the family. Afterwards, when I started to, uh, look for information. Uh, some of the information wasn't available still because it was still protected by privacy because none of the people were still alive. But there were a lot of things from, I think, believe it was called the enemy cus, enemy property custodian in Canada. So I did find out some of the things that had happened with some of their, um, what, what they had actually lost. But when it came to the family history, that's when I started doing things like finding out that my great grandfather had come in, it looks like in 1899. But he was also granted not as citizenship. I'm trying to remember what the term is for that, for Japanese. But in 1903, he was granted that. And the reason why was that the candidates were putting pressure on the government to give the Japanese this, because they couldn't work as commercial efficient and unless they had this status. So it wasn't, it was only economic wasn't for the, uh, the right reasons. And, um, I think that, uh, what I found out afterwards were things that my father actually had his personal documents as well too. And so that's how I found out a little bit more about what had happened. A lot of these documents I found after the Redress because they had to draw all these documents together. And that's how I found out some of the other things where he exactly had gone. He had not gone into the detail about this, but I was quite surprised of where he had been shipped. And I'm focusing more on my father because he's the younger one who was being sent to different camps in different lumber companies as well to do work. And of course, the interesting thing of course was that the paid, uh, my father, the Japanese to do this, but they also took out room and board as well too. So it was, uh, I was an interesting thing and when I looked at a couple of documents and I said, okay, so you paid them this. But by the way, we need the money to say, well, here's where you lived at for where you lived and what you ate, which was well, we can symbolize our own opinions on that. Um, and um, really that's, that's when I started finding out, looking through city directories but also some of the documents in the, uh, the National Library. Just what my, where my grandparents and my father and my uncles and aunts had lived and, and the different places they had gone within Vancouver. And, uh, just what, what it was that they had worked for and what they had lost. So, um, what I'm trying to do now is doing the research of what's gone on, what went on before they came to Canada. And, um, that, that, that, um, through, uh, work that my, uh, my son is doing is finding out what, what has actually happened in the small town that my great grandfather and my grandparents and my father came from in [Mio?]. And, um, and this is scary because it's being done through Kyoto University and all the information is being interpreted for me because I don't have Japanese language skills. And, and I think a lot of, uh, uh, Japanese Canadians of my generation are in that same boat as well too. And, um, so, uh, just the other day I found out that my great grandfather died in 1954. He had been repatriated back to Canada because the Japanese Canadians were given the choice of either going back to Japan for a free ride or coming East, uh, I guess on their own, on their own ticket to, uh, settle in, uh, wherever else in Canada except for that a hundred mile limit. And he had gone back in 1946 when he was 70 years old. The poor man had lost two, two boats. He'd been here for over 45 years, and just didn't think it was more, was he gonna do, he was gonna live with his, uh, his, uh, daughter and son-in-law that they, they were already stretched from, from this bad experience. His wife, also, I should throw this in, because it's something else I'd research too. She'd come to Canada in 1926 she had stayed in Japan while he was here. One of my aunts, and this is an interesting story, said she was a bit of a womanizer. So they said you better come over and it was sad because she came in 1926 and then she died in 1928 in Vancouver with, of cancer. And um, one of the things I'm trying to find out is where she's buried because I've seen her death certificate with the British Columbia records, but it said, she's buried, but I've been looking at records at um, uh, a cemetery in Vancouver called Mountain View, where a lot of Japanese and Chinese Canadians have been buried, but I can't find any records right now. So I'm still trying to find that. Um, but my son actually, um, was shown by her husband, my great grandfather's gravestone in [Mio?] And he died in July of 1954 which I did not know until about a week or so ago. So, um, we are trying to find out any information going back a few generations from that as well too. I have a picture of my grandmother with her, her grandmother, my great, great grandmother and I don't know anything about her other than the picture. And I know it was taken in Japan because my mother's wearing the kimono and her mother had known that her grandmother had never been to Canada. So it's um, that's still the thing that I've got through personal papers but things that um, um, have come up through, um, the Japanese Canadian National Museum and I guess other institutions will have this where I'm starting to find information about my family. So it's a, it's an interesting journey. Uh, uh, just hope I live long enough to see if I can bring it a little bit closer and we are looking for a koseki as well too. We think we may have one but we know we're going to see if we can get one of those as well.AT: 00:22:36 I'm sorry what?
BH: 00:22:36 A koseki. A family history, so.
AT: 00:22:40 So, so for, forgive me.
BH: 00:22:44 That's okay.
AT: 00:22:46 I'm putting this together in my mind, but were your parents still
alive, um, when you began doing some of this family research?BH: 00:22:58 Yes, they were. Yeah. My father had died, uh, in 2006 and my mother
died in 2009. Um, my mother didn't know as much because she was in Japan as I had said, but she didn't come back to Canada until 1951. Again, the governor wasn't sure if they were going to let them back in. There was still that thing going on as well too. My grandmother also went back to Japan after the war and they were giving her a hard time about coming back to Canada. She was already been granted citizenship, but it was, I guess it was one of those things where, you know, no, we were not sure. And, and it was because the government still wasn't sure what they wanted to do with the Japanese. And um, so when it came to talking to her, there wasn't much of a Canadian experience and my grandparents had long died. And again, there was a language barrier and both of my aunts had passed away before I was even born and one had died in Japan. She went back in the 30s and died there. My other one died in Toronto in 1955. But they, they had my, the one that died in Toronto plus my two, my grandparents had gone through the experience, my other Auntie died in the 30s, so she had. And so, um, my mother didn't really know too much and unfortunately because of the war she couldn't come back. So she had stayed in, uh, Japan up to, uh, as I said, 1950, 1951. She did tell me stories about the war where she saw B29s flying over her village every day, dropping little metal sheets that said that would jam radar and send you down propaganda paper about, you know, should surrender that the war is over and this kind of thing. And it was funny because my brother and I, when we were younger, had built or build model airplanes and she walked by one day, she said, "Oh, it's the B29." My brother and I looked at each other. We were only 12, 13 years old and not realizing that she had actually seen a B29. So I always joked with her and I said, "Well how could you tell from the top because you'd always see them from the bottom." She just laughed and she said she, it was interesting because she talked about the high pitch sound that they had made. So they knew that the B29s were coming way before. They had never, they were never bombed. She was in a farming community. Uh, but uh, she had heard about the two atom bombs as well and she heard the Emperor's speech not really seeing they're going to surrender, but, uh, it was the first time she had heard, uh, the Emperor's voice. So you always hear about that in history. And my mother actually talked about that and uh, that's without me ever saying anything. She just said she remembers in the village they all listened to a few radios.AT: 00:26:03 Have you looked into your mom's family's history?
BH: 00:26:08 Yes, I have quite a bit actually. Yes. Because they lived on the
island and they, it was more rural. It was harder to find things. So city directories it would get, there wasn't very much there. Um, her older sister who had been born around 1918 or so had, um, worked as a housekeeper in Vancouver I think in Victoria. Um, in Duncan for, I think, a fairly wealthy family. I just, and her husband, after she died in 1937, I still had a scrap from her. And um, I found when I found her marriage, her marriage certificate online finally, uh, it had been released. That's the first time they ever found out what the groom's name was. So I googled it, found his obituary, sent an email to the, um, uh, the funeral home, just benefiting who I was and saying if there was any members of the family who may want to contact me or I'd like to contact some, what I'd like to hear from them. And a about a week later, so one of the daughters had contacted me from the second marriage cause my, uh, the gentleman and my, um, aunt had, didn't have children. She died when she was 19 or 20, and they had been married in Victoria, BC, went back to Japan and she died. He came back to Canada I think, um, after the war remarried, but it kept some photo albums that she had. And the family sent me that. So it was very interesting. Um, there was everything from pictures of my aunt with his family. And um, then I also found out that she lived in Victoria a little bit longer cause then I had a family name [Koga?] and that helped me find more information. But, um, if you look in city directories, a lot of times they'll just say Oriental they won't say names and things like that so it was, there's a lot of people with that last name, I guess. Uh, but there, um, it, uh, it kind of closed the book on that because we had never known. And the ironic thing is when my aunt had died in Japan, she was probably no more than 50 or a 100 miles away from where my mother was, but I'm not sure they knew or they may have known, but, um, they wouldn't have known really known each other. And my mother left when she was three. My aunt was more Canadian than Japanese cause she was born in Canada and went through the education system. My mother was the exact the opposite. So, um, I did find out a little bit about that side of the family if it's not the same and unfortunately because my grandparents and my grandparents didn't have the language skills. But also I think, uh, it was something, I don't think they, they really wanted to talk about. But I mean, I think the same with my paternal grandparents. It was just really tough.AT: 00:29:43 And were you, um, when you look back at those, kind of, the start
of this journey of exploring your, your family's history, um, and also the particular history of the Incarceration and experiences during World War II.BH: 00:30:04 Right.
AT: 00:30:06 Um, if you, if you had to try to pinpoint what, um, inspired that
or inspired you to do that work and, and what, what has, why is this important to you and what, what's been the kind of the driving force, if you could name it?BH: 00:30:29 I would think it's personal. There's no question about it. I think
having the history background probably had me thinking that way a little bit more. But obviously there's a lot of people that don't have the history background that have the genealogy personal part of this that I think they want to find out. And uh, one thing that does make it difficult I think are the language skills. Being able to communicate at the time. And as we talked about earlier, just the educational part and not knowing about this, this had happened. Um, I, I think that, um, I lost my train of thought on your question, again. I'm sorry. No, so it was, can, can you repeat the question about it?AT: 00:31:16 Yeah, I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about what
has inspired or motivated you to, um, yeah, to start and continue this journey. It's been 30 years as you mentioned.BH: 00:31:29 Yeah. I think what's inspired me is so it's not lost. I think it's
important that, uh, my son quite grateful that he is embraced this and he is really interested in it. But I, and I would like to think that future generations, whether it's our family at large or people who are in the community and people who aren't in the community realized that this had happened. This is how it affected people on a personal level. Um, and uh, even in Canada, there were many times where it was, it's not gonna happen again because we've always had different immigrant groups come and we had the Vietnamese boat people were that, you know, just like the United States has as well too. Of course, currently there's a hustle that thinking again, I know my, uh, my son who was fairly politically active said, "So what's the difference between what's happening with the Muslims now and what's happening with my, my family?" And, uh, so I think just preserving all of this history and, uh, just the fact of making sure this kind of thing never happens again. I think are the, are the important things to, uh, ensure to, that's, that just doesn't happen again, but at the same time, on a personal level, it is just a, the memory of the family, uh, making sure that, um, future generations know, as I said before.AT: 00:33:23 And so do you just have one son? You have other children?
BH: 00:33:26 Not I just have one son and I have a brother and sister as well
too. And uh one of my sis, my sister lives in San Jose and my brother lives in Toronto, we do. Actually I live in Pickering, which is outside of Toronto. But, uh, um, I think I'm very proud but also happy that my, my son does see the importance of this is really taken a role in, um, gone back to his roots, literally gone back to where his great grandparents and, and beyond have come from. And, uh, I have visited there myself, but I'm obviously going to make the trip back again to just to, uh, be able to, you know, come full circle with it. And uh, I'm glad. And, uh, um, but I think that the people in Japan also have seen this history now too, that Japanese Canadians and Americans from their communities had gone through this experience. And, uh, with a different kind of wartime experience than what they had. But I think it was important for them to realize this as well too. And I think that this is something that, uh, that they're seeing because I, I can see on this, like my great grandfather, he came back and who knows if he talked about it, uh, would know that this happened. And I think that the fact that this is all coming to light now with the Internet and that as well too, I think people are gonna realize worldwide that this did happen in Canada, in the United States.AT: 00:35:15 And what kind of advice would you give to people who are interested
in, um, a similar kind of work? Of um, research documentation, preservation?BH: 00:35:34 I think, not to give up. I think you, the most important thing is
to talk to your relatives. I, that's, I think one of the rules of genealogy and a family history is talk to the people, they're going to, they're going to tell you things that you're never gonna find any documents. Um, and just from listening to what they say, then you're gonna know maybe which documents to go to. And it's worth, I think that's the thing that I would say to it's worth it. It takes a lot of time. But, uh, it's something that you shouldn't forget. It's, uh, you should be proud of, you should be aware of and perhaps, um, as time goes on, um, future generations could even do more research so you can start the journey, but it may be finished afterwards, but I think people in your family in the future would appreciate what you've done in the present, so what you've done now.AT: 00:36:54 And um, what were
BH: 00:37:05 You can ask anything
AT: 00:37:05 Sure, sure, I'm just trying to think of how to phrase this question.
BH: 00:37:11 You won't hurt my feelings.
AT: 00:37:14 In your, in your opinion. Um, why, why is this, why is this history
important? Why, why is it, is it crucial for everyone to know about?BH: 00:37:38 So I think so because I think a lot of people have different
stories and experiences, especially in the United States and Canada with the immigrant experience. And, uh, there's different stories, but I think that the, the stories, um, should all be told so people understand each other to this is the history that people in Jap, Japanese community came through the Chinese community with head tax. And the Jewish community was not being able to, um, weren't allowed to come into the country. Middle Easterners, Muslims. I it, I think that's the important part is that the history that the experiences aren't necessarily exactly the same, but there's still the experience. And I think that's something that people have to be proud of. If you look back at the new people that are coming to the country now, but the past months and just the kinds of things they went. And I think it also molded the way, um, the country has become, the countries have become, whether it's through government laws and legislation and so on, or if it's just people's attitude and, uh, uh, understanding of what people have gone through. Uh, hopefully again, and I know I said this earlier, but some of these things don't happen again and that, um, we learned something from them. You know, I think that's, in my opinion, I think that's one of the most important parts. We've learned, mutual understanding. You see where we've come from, let's go forward, let's go forward positively. Let's remember all these things that have happened, but let's make it, make sure that we're progressing and going the right way rather than going back a couple of steps.AT: 00:39:33 And on that note, what are some of your wishes for the future generations?
BH: 00:39:42 Well, the unique thing well, of course I, I think, with any kind
of, not a statistical wizard, but I think that, I think the Japanese community has done is, they've shown through intermarriage and through, um, having, um, this experience, the understanding of different cultures, but just looking at people not that way just as people and, and um, and yet say, well, we're not, I think our grandparents might've been more concerned about us wandering down the system just because they were, they had that different kind of approach to what the Japanese were. But, um, I know that, uh, I think out of all my 20 cousins, I think only one marriage another Japanese, but all the rest had not. And I, and I realize that it's part of the experience that the community had gone through. But I, um, also think that I look at the Japanese community is doing it now, but you, but now you can walk around anywhere in the states and Canada and you can see that people are friends. It doesn't matter if they're Black, white, yellow, Brown, whatever, that, that, that is starting to happen. And I think that's what I hope and I, and I can see that the, the future can bring that, that it doesn't matter that that doesn't become, uh, uh, something that affects the society at large. I hope.AT: 00:41:28 And this is kind of going off to a different topic, but it just
made me think of this. Um, I'm curious about what, what your experience has been with, um, the Japanese Canadian community? Was there, were you raised in, what kind of communities did you grow up in?BH: 00:41:54 You know, it's kind of funny because when my parents bought their
first house, the first house, their house in Toronto when I was born. So I guess the first house where actually, the second one in the suburbs of Toronto. Um, they moved to an area where everyone was a war vet. The Bentley's, the Patterson's, the Riley's, the Chapman's. Um, and I remember, uh, my friend's mother saying to me once, she said, you know, when your parents moved in in 1957, we didn't know what to expect. All we knew that was just Japanese family. Knew nothing about Japanese, never met a Japanese person before. All they had heard was through the newspapers, through their war experiences. My understanding is that none of them happened to fight against the Japanese. They all, fought in the European theater. But, um, so I was born and raised into that community just like my uncles and aunts who were Japanese Canadians. And I knew Oh Canada. I knew, I knew hockey. I know, I knew things that were Canadian. I also had things from my Japanese, uh, um, background as well too, cause my mother had been in Japan, but it was a nice mix and I wasn't doing one. Now I know what I had mentioned are people that seem to all be of English or Scottish or Irish descent, but, um, there were also people that were Italian Canadians, Greek Canadians as well. And Toronto was starting to become that, I think in the 1940s and 50s and 60s, where it was starting to attract a lot of immigrants from different cultures. And, um, so to answer your question, I think there was that different that well that angst I guess with the community, uh, just on the street. But I remember when, uh, one of them say, well, your parents were the nicest people. They were respectful. They, you know, they really looked after their gardens, not the stereotype, but they were really ah nice, gentle people. And so it's that thing about the preconceived notions and actually living with people that I think really came out of it. And, you know, don't get me wrong, I still experienced a lot of, uh, uh, prejudice when I went to school. Um, there was a couple of other Asian families and a Black family and, uh, it was, I think we all know it was a different attitude in the, uh, approach in the 50s and 60s called a lot of different names. And, uh, you know, the war had only been over for 12 years at that time as well too. So when you think back now, uh, 9-11 is been longer than than what I had experienced when I was in a suburb of Toronto at the time. And so, um, uh, it was that, but as time went on, and I think the years went by and, and just the different interactions that we had with different people, I'd like to think that, uh, it was just change and it was like one other Japanese family that, or Greek family, whatever. It was a kind of thing. And I think as the, that generation of, of children started to get together, it didn't, it didn't seem to really matter. You know, we all played hockey on the street or we all went to the movies together. Or we'd play baseball at the school yard and that kind of thing. So.AT: 00:45:44 Did you know of any Japanese Canadian families? Growing up?
BH: 00:45:44 We did. Um, partially because of the, uh, family friends. So
friends that my parents had met, whether it was in Vancouver, British Columbia or was here in Toronto because, uh, the community did try to do things still together. They, uh, try not to, uh, I remember one gentleman said there was, uh, three, three couples, three Japanese couples of we're going to a movie in Toronto. We all took separate street cars. And when we got to the movie theaters, we all sat in different areas of the theater cause we didn't want to be together. And this happened in the 50s. So, um, you know, the, there was that, but, um, oh gosh, I have lost the question again.AT: 00:46:38 Did you grow up with other Japanese?
BH: 00:46:38 Oh, right, yes. And so, um, and um, one of them, um, one family
they're uh, I've, I've still stay in contact with they're very good friends of my, uh, my parents. And I go fishing and I still take, uh, uh the family. Some of the wildlife I catch and things like that, but it's, um, I guess it's kind of trying to preserve what my parents had as, as, as with families. But really it was more coincidence or happenstance, I guess if a Japanese families also lived in the same community and went to school with, with you because some of these other families were throughout the city. So it was more that personal apartment than there was within the community there, there was a couple more. Yeah. But we didn't really, you know, it was just like another friend kind of thing or someone else you didn't like.AT: 00:47:40 So, growing up, how would you describe your, um, relationship with
your or your understanding of your own personal identity?BH: 00:47:53 Well, I was reminded all the time I was different. There's no
question about that. Um, but, um, for a personal identity, I, you know, proud as hell of it. So, you know, it's, uh, uh, it's something where, um, you know, maybe my, my son or, you know, and hopefully future generations aren't gonna forget that their Japanese heritage, but they also embrace being Canadian. And, uh, well my sister's American now and it's, um, I guess it's something that's there in, in a way being a visible minority. I think it's a little bit different because you are reminded constantly. But, uh, on the other hand, it's uh I think society has seen it more as a, as a positive now. I mean, sushi places on every corner, isn't there? But, uh, uh, you know, with the Japanese can we have a cultural center, we have national museum now and I think it's great. So it's not just the Japanese that I, I, I hope all of the different, uh, uh, uh, peoples that are around, develop that same kind of thing too. You don't, you don't forget where you came from. Don't forget your culture. I think it's important for other, uh, communities to see that culture and experience, you know. It's great to have all of these different foods. It's great to have these different dances, music. So, so on and so forth and then it also sparks interest and maybe going back to that country as well too, whether it's Japan or somewhere else where these people come from and understand just what has made them the way they are and then uh, helps you understand more what, you know, what their background, how they are, kind of thing.AT: 00:50:09 I just have a couple more question.
BH: 00:50:15 Yeah.
AT: 00:50:15 As we wrap up. Um, what would you say were some of the, if you, if
you could name them what some of the greatest impacts that the Incarceration experience had on your family and maybe yourself personally as well?BH: 00:50:36 I think the biggest impact was that they had to move from BC to
Ontario. They had to start all over again. I think when they started seeing the difficulty other new immigrant groups were having or that they were going to make sure that there wasn't going to be any problems with that. Um, you know, there was the economic part as well too. I know my, my grandfather worked, um, well gosh, he would've been in his 50s when he'd run stores and did things with fishing in that for years. And then all of a sudden he's putting bowling trophies together or things like that, or just doing things to make ends meet. And um, really what it was, it was starting over again. And, um, being hadn't been through the education system or through the government or just through society. I think that was a big impact. But I think moving to, cause moving from the West Coast and BC is a lot different than Ontario is. And uh, um, when you're in your 50s, I think it's a big thing. So I'm talking about my grandparents obviously, cause I think they had the most as far as, um, as a personal property and then that type of thing as well too. And they invested, invested all their life in, into Canada. And they wanted to stay. I know when I looked at passenger lists that they intended to stay, they did not, they did go back, but they wanted to stay in Canada. They wanted to make it better for their kids, for their grandkids and for beyond. So I think that's the impact that the, um, the families did, you know. And I don't think we're unique in that regard our family.AT: 00:52:29 How about intergenerationally?
BH: 00:52:31 Well, I, I think it's the same thing. Um, the reason why, and
again, I'm just speaking from my own family, but, uh, as I mentioned earlier, I have over 20 cousins and they have, um, children as well too. And uh, some of them are involved in things with the community. One of them does a, is the editor of, uh, of a, uh, a national Japanese Canadian paper and she's a fourth generation Japanese Canadian.AT: 00:53:07 Which paper is that?
BH: 00:53:07 The, The Nikkei Voice out of Toronto. And Kelly's working on that.
And I think, um, when I, when I talk to my cousins and, and, and I think their children, I don't talk to them, but I think they, I think they realized just how important and how interesting the family history is. And I, and I think, you know, you're always going to get people who aren't going to be really interested in that, but you will get ones that are. And I think intergenerationally, I think there are members that are, I'm hoping that it goes, as I said earlier, keeps going. But, uh, until the whole story is told and I don't think it will be a bestseller. But, but at the same time, I think it, uh, it's important and, uh, it'll be interesting to see how the Japanese community continues on, as, as we continue to become, uh, integrated within society.AT: 00:54:18 And I know I caught you before you were able to really get into the
Chicago starting Resettlement in Chicago. Um, at some point I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on a comparison of, of that migration, uh, that many Japanese Canadians experienced. And then what happens in the U.S.BH: 00:54:46 From, so most of the Japanese Americans I guess went from
California to Chicago and, and yeah, wherever else.AT: 00:54:53 Yeah, and so the way it works here was, um, Chicago took in the
most peopleBH: 00:54:59 Oh.
AT: 00:54:59 Um, in part because there was a labor shortage.
BH: 00:55:02 Right.
AT: 00:55:03 Um, it was considered a more, a liberal city or accepting. Um, but
you know, folks also went to Cleveland, Jersey, New York, Detroit, just anywhere these.BH: 00:55:18 Big cities.
AT: 00:55:19 In the Midwest and East Coast. And, um, the, the WRA, um, I forget
the name of the kind of Canadian equivalent of the overseas, the group that oversaw the entire process of internmentBH: 00:55:37 Um
AT: 00:55:38 As part of the U.S. military. I just read it this morning. Um, but
it was, it seemed like a similar, similar, umBH: 00:55:48 You mean to the, the
AT: 00:55:49 Departments
BH: 00:55:50 Yeah, you mean the department that helped that decided the ones who
we're going to be repatriated and the ones that were going to be sent to these. It wasn't really citizenship. I'm trying to, it might have been labor. Could it be labor? That they were involved at one time, different ministries were involved as this whole situation evolved and so, and there was different things as well within that too. So, uh, gee I think I'd remember.AT: 00:56:26 But um.
BH: 00:56:26 No, I am very interested in that. I mean that's why when I saw this
exhibition online and fortunate that I was able to see it, I really wanted to find out more about the American experience. Cause I knew about Manzanar, I knew about as I said, Tule Lake. And the 442. I knew about the regimen as well. Daniel Inouye, he was ah in Hawai'i?AT: 00:56:51 Mhm.
BH: 00:56:51 He, uh, he, he had fought there as well too. Um, and I remember my,
my father had mentioned that as well too. And then there was also in Canada, there was also a regiment too that uh fought. There were more interpreters in that, but still in, you know, but the point was of course they wanted to, and there was also ah in Vancouver, a WWI Japanese, uh, monument to the war vets who fought in the First World War in Canada/ Britain at the time. So, um, no, I, I, it's, it's, it's interesting the parallels, but also some of the differences as well too. And uh, I believe our Redress happened, just, just after the ones for United States. Ironically, it was, uh, the government conservative government in Canada, and I think they were the government that was really pressuring the, the liberal government at the time to do something with the Japanese. So, you know, it's good having the apology, but still, unfortunately everybody, I think just like in the States or a lot of the people that really should have heard of it. And benefited from it did this, was kind of too late. But at least it was, it was given so.AT: 00:58:17 Yeah, um. And the, I'm, I'm not sure about Resettlement of Canada.
But that's also something that typically has been excluded from the greater narrative of the Incarceration. Where the um, you know, oftentimes the most basic narrative is people were evacuated, relocated, went to camp and that's kind of where the story ends. But for so many people, because you know, in California that are barred from returning, um, immediately at least. So, and a lot of people participated in this indefinite leave program. So it was a very orchestrated effort that the government, you know, wanted to break up these communities and in large part it was successful, you know. Many communities where we're isolated and I don't know, sometimes it just, it blows my mind that's such a huge migration is kind of written off, and not reallyBH: 00:59:31 And then in the States, I believe there was over a 100,000 Japanese
Canadians ah, Japanese people, but in Canada there's was only 23,000, 24,000. And, uh, uh, you know, and I think that was part of it was breaking up the communities. They did not like Japantowns or, or, or being the hard workers in the fishing industry and working for less money. And, uh, trying to make ends meet and so on and that, but I think there was a social part of the economic part, let's face it, I think was a big part. And so is political too, there's no question about it. But uh, uh, you know that goes back to we just don't forget that happened, that's all. And in, in Canada it was Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg. Some people did go because they were farmers to Saskatchewan, in Alberta as well too. So there are still quite big communities there and uh they have cultural centers or some kind of thing going on as well too. And the East Coast, I shouldn't have been excluded them, but I don't think there's much there. And a lot of people have gone back, obviously a lot of Japanese have gone back to British Columbia. My father said he'd love to have gone back, but his life was in Ontario now. So there's another impact as well too. I mean he just loved it. And some of my cousins are there now, they moved back, you know, so. You know, part of it is it's a lot better weather, but it's also, I, I think they a appreciate what their parents, our grandparents had gone through too. So I suppose that part's good too.AT: 01:01:17 If you could leave any message or, or legacy for your son, for
generations to come. What kind of messaging would you want to leave them?BH: 01:01:32 I think um, not to forget. Not to forget that this happened, but
also, um, the preservation of the family. And, uh, don't, never forget where you came from. And uh, and just keep that message going forever.AT: 01:01:59 And is there, anything that I might have missed or that you'd want
to add before we wrap up?BH: 01:02:03 Oh, goodness. Um, I don't, I guess the only thing is, um, I guess
kind of regretting that, uh, the personal stories maybe got missed from that generation that were most effective. Um, it doesn't mean that the Nisei should not be interviewed as well. I'm sure that that is happening, but, uh, it's, um, it's better than the not doing it at all. And I, uh, you know, as a third generation/ fourth generation, I, you know, I'm, I'm retelling stories that I had heard from that about my father's generation anyway, not so much from my grandparents, but, uh, researching it and I'm hoping that I can tell the story that way as well too. Uh, I think that's what we have to keep doing is just, if you don't tell the story yourself, it's going to get lost.AT: 01:03:09 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to.
BH: 01:03:09 Well, thanks for having me. I, yeah, I know it's not, uh, I, I,
well, I think it is so similar story to what happened in the United States. But, uh, um, again, I, I think it's great for our community to realize what we experienced on both sides of the 49th as well too.AT: 01:03:30 Thank you.
BH: 01:03:30 Okay.
