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7,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/7,"Ashikawa, Lori (3/31/2021)","Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1950","Lori Ashikawa is a sansei born in Oakland, California and raised in Southern California. Being raised by a well-educated mother who experienced incarceration in her young adulthood, Lori grew up in an environment that encouraged assimilation both from internal familial pressure and societal pressure, and thus was separate from any Japanese American or Asian American identity. A musician, Lori moved to Chicago in 1990, when her partner got a job working for the Chicago Symphony, and being an only child, Lori’s mother followed her to Chicago. In looking for ways for her mother to have a community, Lori found JASC. In addition to finding a way for her mother to be involved in the JA community, for the first time, Lori found herself drawn to experiencing aspects of Japanese culture, including music and language. Over the years, Lori has learned more about her Japanese American identity and Japanese ancestry and heritage, visiting relatives in Japan, and remaining active in the community in Chicago.",,,,2021-03-31,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Ueunten, JJ",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AshikawaLori20210331.xml," 5.4 3/31/2021 Ashikawa, Lori (3/31/2021) 1:22:51 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1950 Sansei Cultural Reclamation Japanese American Identity Topaz Pasadena Bay Area Ashikawa, Lori Ueunten, JJ video 1:|20(3)|33(7)|45(8)|59(2)|66(14)|75(14)|92(8)|100(14)|109(9)|119(6)|128(8)|140(4)|149(8)|159(2)|168(12)|179(3)|187(9)|195(14)|206(13)|214(7)|224(1)|233(9)|242(8)|251(11)|260(2)|269(8)|279(4)|288(1)|299(16)|307(8)|317(6)|329(7)|340(4)|349(4)|370(8)|381(2)|387(13)|396(5)|407(4)|418(9)|427(14)|436(14)|449(2)|459(11)|467(14)|476(8)|486(9)|497(5)|507(1)|516(14)|525(16)|533(11)|544(1)|558(8)|565(13)|573(7)|582(13)|592(8)|601(13)|610(8)|620(6)|627(12)|634(9)|642(7)|648(10)|658(11)|668(13)|677(2)|686(10)|697(2)|711(2)|720(12)|728(4)|737(4)|745(6)|756(2)|765(13)|776(1)|792(7)|801(4)|819(10)|834(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/553118339/0acb452f53 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553118339" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Lori Ashikawa is a sansei born in Oakland, California and raised in Southern California. Being raised by a well-educated mother who experienced incarceration in her young adulthood, Lori grew up in an environment that encouraged assimilation both from internal familial pressure and societal pressure, and thus was separate from any Japanese American or Asian American identity. A musician, Lori moved to Chicago in 1990, when her partner got a job working for the Chicago Symphony, and being an only child, Lori’s mother followed her to Chicago. In looking for ways for her mother to have a community, Lori found JASC. In addition to finding a way for her mother to be involved in the JA community, for the first time, Lori found herself drawn to experiencing aspects of Japanese culture, including music and language. Over the years, Lori has learned more about her Japanese American identity and Japanese ancestry and heritage, visiting relatives in Japan, and remaining active in the community in Chicago. JJ Ueunten (JJU): Today is March 31st, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N. Clark St. in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Lori Ashikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. What is your full name? Lori Ashikawa (LA): Lori Patricia Ashikawa. JJU: And what is your year of birth? LA: 1957. JJU: And where were you born? LA: I was born in Oakland, California. JJU: And when did your family first come to the US? LA: My grandfather first came and it would have been in the early 1900s. So it would have been, yeah I' ; m not really sure, sometime between 1900 and when the Gentlemen' ; s Agreement started. So he was born in 1880-something I think. JJU: And where did he settle in the US? Oh, where did he settle? LA: Oh ,so he moved to the San Francisco Bay area and I think he settled right away in the East Bay. So the San Leandro, Hayward area. JJU: And do you know what motivated him to go to the US? Like come to the US? LA: I don' ; t really know and actually I was going to, I have a family tree that I' ; ve kind of put together over the years. I was gonna try to dig that up but I forgot. I know he wasn' ; t the oldest in the family, so I' ; m assuming he came for more opportunity? But that' ; s a really good question, I don' ; t know. JJU: And do you know what kind of work he did? LA: So what I think, I think he finished his schooling in Japan, and then came to the US in his early 20s, and went into the nursery business. So he was part of the early California flower market. JJU: And then, did you have other family that came from Japan after? LA: So after my grandfather came, he started up the business in the flower market and then his bride came over later. So I' ; m assuming that she must have come after the Gentlemen' ; s Agreement when they were allowing spouses to come into the country. And so wha-what were you asking? So-- JJU: Oh, i-- just if other people came after? LA: Oh okay, so there were no other family members from his side of the family, or my grandmother' ; s side of the family, so they were the only people who immigrated. JJU: And have you had heard like kind of any other stories or things that you want to share about kind of their pre-WWII life? LA: Well I' ; ve learned a lot about their-- both families just i-in more recent years so I know, I know a lot more about my grandmother' ; s family than I do about my grandfather' ; s family but I' ; ve tracked down all the relatives. I...I don' ; t know a whole lot about, yeah what their lives were like in Japan, those two specifically. But there have been all kinds of stories that have been passed down about the family. I' ; ve been to my grandmother' ; s family compound which is in--both my grandparents, grandfather and grandmother, came from Gunma-ken. So they actually...I' ; ve been to the family compound of my grandmother' ; s side, which is-- her maiden name was Sakurai. And the person living there I think it was something like the 21st generation? They were able to find a family tree that was written out, and had been hidden somewhere in the house. And it had the line going all the way back to the 1600s I think. Well, the Edo period. So they had a, my grandmother had a very large family. I think there were eight or nine children and a few of them died along the way as children. But all of those branches of family are still there, and they all have offspring going down to you know what would be like my-- if I had grandchildren. But it' ; s really interesting, the family compound that my grandmother' ; s family lived at had, they had their own cemetery area there and they also had a storehouse that was full of treasures. So there are all these stories, and I don' ; t know if any of them are true about them somehow having some kind of connection to the emperor. [laughs] But it' ; s like, family legend. JJU: Probably later I might ask a little bit more about you visiting LA: Okay JJU: And like connecting with your family. But I' ; m gonna have to ask, when and where was your family incarcerated? LA: So my mother' ; s family was incarcerated at Topaz in Utah. And it would have been right at the time everyone left the Bay Area. JJU: And then, is, is that the only part of your family that was...is that the only part of your family that was incarcerated? LA: Well my father was born in Hawaii, and my mother was born in Oakland. So since my father was born in Hawaii, I don' ; t think his family were incarcerated. But he did enlist in the army, and he was in the...I guess in the...I think he did translation work? He went to Minnesota and did boot camp and all of that in Minnesota. So that it was- I guess the intelligence unit. And he kept the diary which I still have, it' ; s a bunch of photographs. And I didn' ; t, I should have brought it but I didn' ; t bring it. And there are pictures of him and--training in Minnesota which is really interesting because it' ; s just a few Japanese American guys and then lots of Caucasians and nurses that he was friends with. And...and then there' ; s pictures of him goin-- flying over Italy and then later flying over Hiroshima after it had been bombed. So I' ; m not really sure why he went to Japan at that point, if it was after the war. But he told me that as part of his uh- part of being enlisted like, that they were able to go and take treasures from Japan, and so I have a bayonet with a sword on it, and it' ; s in the closet. (laughs) So it' ; s, it' ; s a very odd kind of relationship. The fact that my father never went to camp and my mother did go to camp. JJU: I' ; m now curious about like, did your father' ; s family come from...did your father' ; s family come from Japan then to Hawaii originally? LA: Yes, yeah so my, my grandmother on my father' ; s side had some kind of plantation? I think she grew tobacco, and then later they, they switched what they were growing there. I think they even--well I' ; m not really sure, I mean I visited once when I was five, but actually I' ; m--I' ; m estranged from my father, so I haven' ; t really had the chance to speak to him for the last 50 years really. So, yeah I don' ; t really know a lot about his side of the family. JJU: Do you know how old your mother was when the incarceration happened? LA: She had...she was somewhere in the middle of her college years so she was a student at UC Berkeley, and she was getting a degree in social welfare. And I' ; m not exactly sure if she completed--if she completed the degree after, or if she was in that group of students who were allowed to graduate early. Because I think that if you had just a year left they were able to s-speed you up and somehow get-- get your degree to you. So she-- she got a bachelor' ; s degree but I don' ; t think she had actually formally finished. So yeah, so that would have meant that she would have been 20, 21 something like that. JJU: Did your mom or anyone in your family share about their experiences, or any stories or reflections about the incarceration? LA: No, not until after reparations so-- and I' ; ve heard that that' ; s pretty common. So, the first time that I heard anything about the camps was when I was maybe in 3rd or 4th grade and there was a neighbor up the street, Mr. Watson, he was British. And he and his wife were very nice and they gave--they gave full sized candy bars at Halloween. So I think I must have been trying to schmooze up to them because I think I stopped there on my way home from-- from elementary school which was just up the street so I could walk to school. And I remember going into their backyard, and Mr. Watson saying to me " ; Oh it' ; s really too bad what- what happened to your family during the war." ; And I didn' ; t know- well for one thing I didn' ; t know that there had been a war or I wasn' ; t--I was really vaguely aware of World War II. And so I asked him " ; Well what do you- what are you talking about or what do you mean?" ; and he said " ; Oh yeah well the US government put your family into camps during World War II to protect them." ; And so I ran home to my mom and I was like " ; What' ; s this about?" ; and s-she didn' ; t really give me a satisfactory answer so I was really under the impression that my family had done something wrong and just been in jail. And then I didn' ; t hear anything more--I think there-- in high school, maybe one of the US history textbooks had a little blurb about the camps but it really was-- I can even remember what it looked like here' ; s the textbook, here' ; s the regular text, and then up in the corner was a little tiny box that was like one of those sidebar things and it was a picture of the barracks and it just said you know " ; In 1941 Japanese Americans were interned at camps across the US" ; or something and that was it. So that gave me a little bit more knowledge about it, but it wasn' ; t really until reparations that my mother told any personal stories. I mean I think I...I gleaned bits of knowledge from stuff that I read but nothing personal. JJU: Do you wanna maybe talk a little bit about reparations and then your, your mother sharing a little bit after that and how that happened? LA: Yeah, so I remember I-I guess she started like, there was kind of a buzz in the Japanese American community and people started talking about what was happening. And since I was just involved- wrapped up in my own life I didn' ; t really pay attention, but my mom started cutting articles out of the newspaper, and so I kind of peripherally knew about it. And then when the actual reparations was passed and Reagan signed it, I remember like my mom being really excited. And we went, we used to go visit the relatives up in the San Francisco Bay area at all the holidays. So we would go at Easter and at Christmas usually. Then I remember going up and one of my relatives who usually never really talked about anything personal I mean he was like really good at making jokes and stuff. I remember sitting in, in the living room and hearing him talk about- about reparations and all the adults getting really, really serious and really emotional that they could finally talk about something that they had just kind of squirreled away and you know, swept under the rug. So that was the first time that people really started t-to talk. JJU: Do you remember like some of the things that were shared? Either in that kind of, in that room or after? LA: Well my mom, then she started telling stories about what happened in those days. So she talked about how their family went to Tanforan to the horses stalls, and she talked about how bad it smelled because the horses stalls had just been whitewashed over, and how she could still see the hay there. And then she talked about when they finally went out to Topaz and were getting situated in those barracks and how dusty it was, and dirty. And she mostly talked about how angry she was all the time, and how she just really felt it was so unjust what was happening, and since she was in college, I think she was already pretty involved in the world outside of family life. So she said to get away from the family, she would go to the furthest part of the camp, I guess there was one, lone, tree and she would sit under that tree just to be alone and be away from everyone. But she was living in-- so she had three older brothers and her mom, and they all lived together. Her dad had passed away when she was about 13 years-old so basically it was just her mom being in charge of everything, and then her older brothers also since she was the baby of the family. And then a lot of other stories kinda came out later after I went to a reunion, a camp reunion with her in the 90s. And I think seeing, seeing a lot of people that she had known in the camp, kind of brought back a lot, a lot more memories for her. But right after the whole stuff about the reparations came out I think that was pretty much what she talked about. JJU: I' ; m curious like, how was it for you to kind of finally hear your family or your mom talk about these things, after like having, not even heard about it, and how did that change or affect you? LA: Well growing up I was-- I pretty much grew up in a really white neighborhood in Pasadena, CA. So in my elementary school, I think there were only a few Asian kids like maybe two Japanese American kids in my grade, and there was like one African American kid and everyone else was white. Oh, and maybe one little Hispanic girl and that was it! So it was yeah, very white community, and growing up I didn' ; t really have any Japanese American friends except I did have one best friend in first grade, Naomi Uchida. And I didn' ; t, I don' ; t even think I knew she was Japanese American but she was small like me and I really liked her, and we hung out together and did everything together but then my teacher said, pulled us aside and said " ; You can' ; t be friends anymore, because you have to integrate." ; So I wasn' ; t friends with her anymore after that, and I mostly hung out with white kids then all the way up through high school. And I didn' ; t have any real Japanese American self-identity. We belonged to a Japanese American church that was... kind of far it was maybe like 8, 8 or 9 miles away so the kids who went to that church went to different schools. So I didn' ; t really have any friends at church, and I thought the kids were all snobby, especially the Japanese American girls. They were really clique-ish, and I didn' ; t have anything in common with them I thought. So the kids I hung out with in high school were all, all white as I said and all really politically active. ' ; Cause our school, because of Brown versus Board of Education we had this whole busing thing going in Pasadena and we were all really involved in what was happening with the school board, and you know we were trying to boycott standardized tests because they were racist. And we' ; re doing all this stuff and at the same time, oh and the Vietnam War was going on, but I had no Japanese American identity or self knowledge! And I didn' ; t really think how any of that would be connected with what had happened with the camps. I mean I think I was like really peripherally aware of what had happened during World War II, and I remember in high school I had these great teachers but no one really talked about the Japanese Americans-- so I, consequently I always thought that I was white. And one day this teacher who was not my teacher, Rich Miyagawa, he pulled me aside and he tried to politicize me. He gave me a book to read about Japanese American identity, and I can' ; t remember what the book was called. But-- Oh it was something about an American or...yeah I don' ; t remember, anyway. So I remember reading the book, and thinking " ; Well you know he has some interesting points" ; but I still just didn' ; t see how they really applied to me. So I just tucked that information away and, it all came flooding back later of course. (laughs) But yeah, it' ; s just interesting to be so disengaged from your community even though it' ; s not like I wasn' ; t politically aware. JJU: I' ; m curious about how that kind of, chang-how, how that changed and how you became aware, more aware of your Japanese American identity. LA: Well my mom--okay I didn' ; t have any Japanese American friends, but I did have my cousins in the San Francisco Bay Area. But they didn' ; t--okay, so (laughs) I had, what happened after the war is my mother' ; s three brothers, of them the oldest, Willie, he inherited the family' ; s nursery business. So he, as I' ; ve heard like a lot of issei transferred ownership to the-their kids so they could maintain ownership of their companies. And so my, my grandmother' ; s and grandfather' ; s nursery was part of the California flower market as I said before, and there was a tight knit group in San Lorenzo, which is one of the communities up there. It was like this San Lorenzo nursery...I have a whole book on the history of the California flower market. But anyway, so because of the way the isseis transferred their businesses to the nisei, my mom' ; s oldest brother took over the nursery and was running it with, with his younger brother Shigeru, and with my grandmother. So they kept the business going...and what was your question? Where was I going with that? Well about their community. Okay, so they were really involved, th-the branch of the family that went into the nursery business was really involved in the Japanese, Japanese American community in the East Bay. So they went to a Japanese American church, and they knew a lot of community people in that area. And one of the brothers though, went to Med school, and so I think that was a really big deal for the family to be able to come up with the money to send him to med school. And because of that, he didn' ; t have to go to the camps because he was already off on the East Coast going to school. And when, after the war ended that branch of the family went back to the Bay Area to live, they ended up settling in Marin County which was a pretty wealthy neighborhood across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. And as a kid, I always referred to that branch of the family as the city mice and the ones who lived in the East Bay as the country mice because they were so completely different to me as a kid. The city mice were basically white in my mind. Even though I think my aunt was really interested in Japan, and they had gone back a few times, they had sent money there, they, they were the ones who kept up the connections with Japan. And the family in the East Bay pretty much ran the nursery and we' ; re really, really JA and never went to Japan and never went anywhere besides the Bay Area. They never even went to Southern California for a long time. So it was a weird like a, kind of- almost like a rift between these two different kinds of Japanese American identity. The one that was really white and then the one that was really involved in community. And they even talk different like going and visiting, I realized that you know the East Bay community didn' ; t talk like anyone else I knew, they had their own sort of slang and when I started learning Japanese about 10 years ago, I realized like a lot of the things that they would say like they would say like my one of my cousin' ; s name is Chuckie or Charles. They' ; d say " ; Okay we' ; re gonna go to the store with Chuckie guys" ; and I realized or " ; We' ; re gonna go with-" ; you know their Aunt, " ; Auntie guys." ; I realized that was like the same as saying minna-san in Japanese. And there were all these like really clever things that they would say that were related actually to the Japanese language just because of living in the community. And I would never hear that from the city mice. So I, yeah so then back in Pasadena where I was living, tha--the kids who went to my church then they were like a whole ' ; nother group of Japanese American culture that I didn' ; t really understand or have connection to. JJU: I' ; m sorry if you already said this, but like how did your family end up in Pasadena versus like the East Bay area, Marin county? LA: So after the war, I know a lot of Japanese people weren' ; t allowed to go back to their communities right away. But the way my mom told the story was that she didn' ; t want to go back. She was, she just wanted to sort of go out and see the world, so she ended up going to Detroit. And she met my dad who was at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. He was studying to- he ended up getting his PhD in, in Biophysics. So she met him there and she was living in a YWCA. In fact, I have a picture. So one of my grandparents' ; neighbors was Toshio Mori. And they-he was a good family friend and so... Actually, one of the stories in here is the " ; All American Girl" ; and my mom swears that that' ; s about her. Because Toshio Mori and his brother I guess would walk past her house everyday and she' ; d be sitting on the steps, and that' ; s what this story " ; The American Girl" ; is about. And then here' ; s the inscription from Toshio Mori, that says, " ; To Mrs. K Nieda, My close friend and neighbor, who, next to my mother, gave me encouragement since childhood days." ; and it' ; s signed March 5th, 1949, San Leandro. But anyway there' ; s a picture here and I don' ; t know what this-this is what my mom would do. She would have newspaper clippings and then she would just like fold ' ; em all which way, and oh wait this is the wrong clipping! (laughs) Okay, this is just the family of Toshio Mori looking at the book. I thought that this was going to be the picture of my mom in the YWCA in Detroit. So that must be folded up in another book somewhere. So ba-backtracking, my-- JJU: Did you want to talk a little bit about, you know, her experience at the YWCA, or Detroit? LA: Yeah so okay, that was supposed to be the YWCA. So she lived in the YWCA, and she met my dad in Detroit and actually the city mice, my aunt from that wing of the family, also went to that area. I guess she had been planning to go to school in New York, she wanted to go into fashion design. And they wouldn' ; t let her go to New York because of the-some kind of quota, so she had--she ended up going somewhere in Michigan I think also. And then my mom after meeting my dad there, then they moved back eventually to the Bay Area and they got married and they settled in- I guess they were living in Albany, which is right next to Berkeley. And that' ; s when I was born so I lived in Albany. And then my dad got a job at USC, USC what was it called, I think it was like the County Medical Center that was connected to University of Southern California. And so that' ; s why they moved to Pasadena. JJU: Just, just ' ; cause like we' ; re in the Midwest I' ; m curious if there' ; s anything else you want to share about like, your mom or your parents' ; time like in Detroit? LA: You know, I don' ; t know a whole lot about that except that, lots of our family friends in Pasadena had some kind of connection to the Midwest. So it must have been because they went there after the war. So I think my parents were introduced by someone who went to Ann Arbor and ended up in Pasadena, and they kind of became sort of my mom' ; s close family friends and I called them auntie and uncle even though they weren' ; t related. But they were, they were kind of like the only connection I had to the Japanese American community besides my relatives. So their families I kind of knew them, but not- I didn' ; t play with them as a-well I did I guess. When my parents would visit, or my mom would visit, then I would play with the kids. Yeah, and that, but that' ; s about all--I keep meeting people actually from the Midwest which is interesting. So there must have been a large number of Japanese Americans who ended up in the Great Lakes region. JJU: Yeah, my understanding is that you couldn' ; t go back to the coast if you wanted to leave before the war was over or something like that? LA: If you--? JJU: Oh I just...I I think like people couldn' ; t go back to the coast if they wanted to leave- LA: OH Right. (nods) JJU: Before the war was over. Maybe there was like jobs or stuff here. LA: Yeah because actually another friend of my mom' ; s in LA, she had also been near, kind of near Ann Arbor. And I think she ended up staying there but she would come and visit in the Los Angeles area because she had some other relatives there. JJU: And so your mom went directly from Topaz to Michigan? LA: I think so. Yeah I don' ; t know, an-and I' ; m not really clear on what happened to their property and what it was like when they went back. I mean I know that they had neighbors who took care of their nursery so they, they didn' ; t lose everything. They were able to, to get back on their feet and I think the American friends helped also. But I' ; m not sure if my grandmother went right back to the Bay Area and the kids dispersed? ' ; Cause I never really heard of the, the two brothers who were running the nursery, I never heard stories of them being anywhere else. So I' ; m not sure if they were allowed to go back. JJU: I know you talked a little bit about your family opening up a little bit more about talking about their wartime experiences during...But after reparations, I guess I' ; m wondering if you see kind of like a different kind of willingness to talk about it like in different generations of the family? LA: No, not really, which is kind of interesting. I know how-- I almost feel like the nisei wanted to talk more about it than the sansei did but maybe that' ; s my family. I know that the-- none of my relatives, none of my cousins, so my, my age group seemed really very interested in Japan except for me. And I didn' ; t really become interested in Japan, and I know you' ; re talking about the whole incarceration thing. But I think it' ; s connected, to know about family history. I-I just didn' ; t--it didn' ; t really seem like people were that interested. It' ; s like they wanted to just be part of American life. And after reparations, our parents really wanted to talk about it. And so when I went to one of the reunions, the camp reunion, I was the only kid who went which is, that' ; s really weird! Because all my-my aunt, city mouse aunt, she went and, but none of her kids went, she had three daughters who were my cousins. And then on the country mice side, my mom went, but her brother didn' ; t go, her older brother had died when he was fairly young. And then none of their kids went! But they were more involved in actual real Japanese American life than I was, but I went to the reunion. So that is really interesting that--and I think it' ; s, it' ; s probably different now like I think after the sansei, I think the yonsei are much more connected with history. JJU: Like your cousins' ; children? LA: Well my friends' ; children. I don' ; t know, my cousins' ; children aren' ; t particularly interested either so maybe it' ; s just a family trait! (laughs) JJU: Yeah, I' ; m curious about you connecting to your family history in Japan and how that kind of came about and you became interested in that after kind of growing up without a strong sense of Japanese identity. LA: Well, so I' ; m an only child so when I moved to Chicago in 1990 my--I left my mom alone in Pasadena, and there were no other relatives down there they were all still up in the Bay Area. So there was always this question of should she go up to the Bay Area where she has relatives? But they were just mostly nieces and nephews, and then, and one brother who was still alive. Or should she come out to Chicago? So we decided that she should come to Chicago even though the weather was completely different and she didn' ; t know anyone out here except for me. But she moved out in 2000? Or was it 2001? Somewhere right around that and she ended up living just a short like, three blocks away from us and so...but right before she came, I had been out here about 10 years already and I thought she' ; s going to need to have friends. So I saw a group of Japanese-looking people walking by the lake and I like, like went and talked to one of them, and found out they had a walking group, and that' ; s how I found out about the JASC. So I thought, " ; Wow, she can make friends at the JASC" ; , so that' ; s how I started getting interested actually in Japanese Americans. ' ; Cause when I found out what kinds of programs they had here, yeah it was just--it was to find a community for her and by doing that I kind of found a community for myself. Which is really weird when you think I' ; d been here for 10 years and I didn' ; t even know that there were Japanese Americans living in Chicago. I mean I thought that there were just hardly any Asians at all. And most of my friends that I met when I came here, didn' ; t know anything about Japanese Americans and I had to always explain where I' ; d grown up, and it was just so different than being in California. So that' ; s how I got interested, just by being a surrogate for her. JJU: And what brought you up to Chicago originally? LA: Okay so I' ; m a musician, I' ; m a violinist. And I lived in a house full of musician friends in Venice, CA. And one of the musicians who moved in eventually became my husband, but at that time he was my boyfriend, so he, he auditioned and he was able to get a job with the Chicago Symphony. So I moved out to follow him and then we got married after I moved out like a year later. So yeah I didn' ; t really know anything about the Midwest, and I didn' ; t really you know I didn' ; t even know that Chicago was near where my dad and mom had met ' ; cause I just didn' ; t have a concept geographically of the Midwest. JJU: And was it after kind of finding some Japanese American community here that you started looking into like your own family history in Japan more? LA: So my mom, my mom had gone to Japan when she was really young like three or something. She didn' ; t really remember anything about it. And then, but my grandmother did go back periodically. So I think my mother, well so it was the city mice who actually were maintaining connection with all the Japanese relatives. And so my aunt in Tiburon would invite relatives to come over from Japan and then they would always go to--they would do Northern California, San Francisco, and then as far part of their sightseeing family visit thing they would go to Southern California and then they would stay with us and they would do Los Angeles and that whole part of it. And so because of those connections my mom knew a lot of the relatives in Japan. And from her, mostly from her mother' ; s side ' ; cause that was a bigger family anyway. And so my mom went to Japan for the first time in 1986 with my aunt and they traveled and they went to all the different relatives that had come to California and they made those connections so I think my mom, she was getting more and more interested in it. And actually, one of my mother' ; s uncles had come to the United States and studied horticulture with my grandfather and then sort of taken what he learned from my grandfather back to Japan and used that knowledge there. So there was always this kind of like feeling like oh we' ; ve gotten so much from you Californians and then the Californians were getting a lot from the, the relatives in Japan so there was kind of like a mutual respect there. And so my mom kind of, she knew about these connections, and then I think after-- so after she went to Japan for the first time in ' ; 86 she started kind of reaching out to those relatives more and writing letters then she wanted to take me so I went for the first time in 1996--or 1995. Then I met, I met some of the relatives that I had met as a child growing up. And then, then it' ; s interesting then after, after my mom got involved with the JASC, I came to a judo performance over there, and the reason I came to the performance was--even though I didn' ; t know anything about judo or any of the Japanese martial arts, a friend of mine who' ; s a musician, a Caucasian guy, his son was doing judo over there. And so he invited me to come and watch his kid do judo. So I went and they had this whole thing set up and I think they probably still do it where they had kind of a little ceremonial thing at the beginning and they had the tape recorder there and they put the tape in and they pressed the button and then this Japanese music came on and then then they turned it off like right in the middle of a phrase. And I was so mad I was thinking " ; This is so stupid why, why are you using recorded music you should use live music, aren' ; t there any live Japanese musicians in town?" ; And then right after that Tatsu, I just happened to see that he advertised a workshop for shamisen so I started studying shamisen, and then I got interested, I thought well if I' ; m gonna study shamisen I should learn Japanese language, and JASC was offering Japanese language classes. So I started a beginning class, and then, and then I started getting more interested in the actual culture. It' ; s a little, it' ; s a little weird ' ; cause it is about your life it' ; s not just about the subject matter it' ; s all connected. JJU: I think going a little bit back to maybe some of the kind of possible intergenerational effects of wartime experiences-- Are there any like behavioral patterns that you see in yourself or other people in your family that you think could be connected to like, their wartime experiences? LA: I was thinking about this question, and it' ; s kind of hard for me to divide what is sort of a cultural Japanese American trait or a trait that' ; s been passed down culturally. You know they always say that the Japanese Americans in Los Angeles are basically a time capsule of the Meiji era because time froze when they went to Los Angeles with their traditions. And so ther--there' ; s like certain things that I think are really ingrained behavior-wise that come from Japan. And then layer on that the camp experience and it' ; s, it' ; s hard for me to separate it out. Except that I did have a revelation a number of years ago. When I when I first moved to Chicago, I was playing in a string quartet with some musicians and one of them had survived, he was like an older gentleman, he had survived the Holocaust. He' ; d been in a camp as a child. And then it turned out that the pianist, who was our guest pianist playing with our quartet. He, he was like a blonde hair blue eyed guy but it turned out he was half Filipino. So I don' ; t know where the blonde hair came from. But he had also survived trauma, his family had survived trauma. We were comparing notes, and I realized that there were a lot of personality traits that were similar and they were this thing of you know just thinking that catastrophe was just around the corner. Like everything that you did moving through life you did so carefully because you thought that something that you would do could trigger something bad happening and that was the first time I had ever thought about sort of generational trauma. ' ; Cause the pianist, I think it was his parents who had been in the Philippines and had... And it was probably, it was probably incurred through Japanese imperialism or something, their experience. But anyway, yeah so that is something maybe that came from camp that I could sort of see. And then the other thing, there' ; s sort of a rebelliousness that I see in my family like my mom was really rebellious but I' ; m not sure if that, if she was just that way to start with and it was enhanced by her camp experience? But she never wanted to do things the way everyone else did them, and she also was she was pretty much a feminist I think. And she kind of raised me that way. And then in my cousins I could see, what I' ; ve seen with a lot of sansei actually where they' ; re, they like go out of their way to be louder than everyone else it seems like. And I don' ; t know if that is either, part of trying to be as white as possible or if it' ; s because they were told by their parents to blend in after the camp and so they' ; re rebelling against that? ' ; Cause I know that there was a lot of pressure to conform and I think that' ; s, that' ; s partially why I never learned any Japanese arts or did language, even though other kids when I was growing up did do Japanese dance, and kendo and, and stuff but I never did. So I think my mom was really trying hard to raise me as white as possible and she did a really good job! (laughs) JJU: I guess besides being kind of like separated from Japanese culture-- Are there, are there things that you see in yourself that are kind of, you think might be related to either like camp experiences or, or like maybe, maybe even wartime experiences from your dad? LA: From--? JJU: Oh, from your dad? LA: Oh, well I think there' ; s like probably two different kinds of... kinds of reactions to life that you inherit. I mean some of it is when you know about what happened. So watching my mom' ; s response to the emotions coming out after reparations so there' ; s that, but then there' ; s also the kind of undercurrent you know whether it' ; s stifling the way you act or kind of changing the way you act or-- So wait, can you repeat the question again? JJU: Yeah, I' ; m just wondering... You talked about some of the patterns that you see in your family about what might be-- Might be kind of like a legacy from wartime experiences, and I was just wondering how you saw that in relation to yourself? LA: Hmm-- Yeah I can' ; t, it' ; s so hard to divide what' ; s... What came about after I learned about things and what, what was already there. Although I, I mean I guess you know anytime there' ; s like dysfunction in a family, the tendency is to want to ascribe that, the reason for that to some past hurt or trauma. So yeah there' ; s like a lot of secrecy there' ; s a lot of kind of weird shame there' ; s a lot of acting out in strange ways, but I don' ; t know if that would have been even without having the camp experience. I mean I think the biggest thing that I noticed was the whole repression thing of not acknowledging what had happened for so long and trying so hard to blend into society, that you as a group of people lose your identity. And yeah I can really see that like-- Just trying to ignore that whole aspect of your life and wanting to move on, and so that kind of affects how you move through life like you pick and choose and you sweep things under the rug if you don' ; t think it' ; s gonna further your, your career or be in your best interest. So yeah, definitely like white-washing your past I think is the biggest thing that I' ; ve noticed. JJU: Thanks for sharing that. I wanted to just briefly ask, like you' ; ve talked about going on like reunions, to like a camp reunion? Yeah, is there anything more that you' ; d like to kind of share about that experience? LA: Well that' ; s the first time that I had actually heard that... I don' ; t know if you' ; ve heard this, but I went to one of the panel discussions and they were talking about how there was actually a movement to have Japanese American women sterilized and that it almost passed according to the person who was speaking. And so that was really shocking ' ; cause I realized I wouldn' ; t have been born if they had actually done that. But I--I didn' ; t even really think about it and I mean when I think about it now, that it' ; s just like so similar to what happens you know when you wanna just... Well it' ; s genocide basically, you know when you want to wipe out a whole group of people because of some perceived defect. It' ; s more than just saying oh they' ; re a threat because they might be informers or something it' ; s wanting to wipe them out as a race! That' ; s really shocking. And then the other thing is I didn' ; t know about the 442nd so we went-- my mom and I went to a film that was about that and I remember my mom crying through the whole thing and I had never seen her cry in my whole life. Even though all these horrible things that happened to her while I was growing up, I mean my dad walked out when I was like 5 or something. We had adopted a little boy, so I had a... Well actually my, yeah I had a sister but she died of crib death seven years before I was born. And then when I was about 5, my parents adopted a brother, and they had him for like about a year and then they gave him back because they got divorced. So it' ; s like I had this little brother who I loved and took care of and then they took him away. And my mom never cried during that, then my dad left and never came back and never paid child support, my mom never cried. But when the 442nd movie was showing, that' ; s when she cried. And she said th--I mean she was so angry that these boys had gone off to fight and nothing came of it. They all--I mean so many of them died and the family was still stuck in the camp and they didn' ; t have any kind of dispensation from that. JJU: You know, I think-- Just hearing that, makes me feel like your mom had like a strong sense of when things are unjust. And I know you talked about like being kind of politically active even in high school. I wanted to know if you want to share a little bit about kind of your activism now, and how it is or is not related to your Japanese American identity. LA: Well going back to that teacher, who wasn' ; t my teacher in high school who politicized me about Japanese American things. I think I always, so I always knew that this kind of injust thing had happened to Japanese Americans, but at the same time I think it was really hard, you know how we always called it relocation camps? It was really hard to bring myself to say concentration camp because I knew what happened to the Jewish people in the Nazi camps, and I didn' ; t ever want it to sound like we had gone through anything like that kind of genocide. So ther--and then looking at what happened to black Americans with slavery, and you know and how they were still fighting oppression even now. It' ; s always been really hard for me to think that I should stand up for Japanese Americans especially ' ; cause Japanese Americans seemed so privileged economically, and they seem to have been allowed to kind of climb the ladder and achieve like middle class and upper middle class lifestyles. So yeah I' ; m still kind of... I' ; m still kind of grappling with the sort of hidden parts of what happened because of the camps. And especially after these attacks in Georgia last week, I mean I think I' ; m starting to finally understand you know, where I fit into this whole thing of oppression in the world. And I think it is, I mean I guess that is sort of a byproduct of the camps that our families didn' ; t talk about, the issues. And were just so busy trying to climb the ladder and get economic stability. And my aunt so the city mice aunt. They, when they moved into Tiburon as a doctor and his wife they weren' ; t allowed to join the, the yachting club because that was only allowed for white people. And they faced a lot of discrimination but they kind of just dug in their heels and said we' ; re going to stay here in this society and we' ; re going to make it. And they did that by having like economic stability but also by kind of blending in. Even though my aunt was really always interested in Japanese things, I think they still somehow were able to blend in or that' ; s what it looked like to me. And so, what I grew up with, thinking I was white, was seeing all these other sanseis-- sansei kids who didn' ; t seem really connected or aware politically of what was going on in the world and almost went, almost went too far to the right and became sort of republican. Didn' ; t speak out for other oppressed groups, didn' ; t seem to be interested in politics, and allowed things to happen in our country that hurt other, other minority groups. So I spent a lot of my adult life being angry at Japanese Americans ' ; cause it seemed like the only ones I met were the really uninvolved, or just kind of privileged, ignorant I guess. I don' ; t know how to describe it. So when I--you know, I kind of feel like now the next generation I can relate to that group more because they remind me more of the white activist kids that I grew up with when I was in high school. And they seem more aware of the connections and patterns that are happening in the world and they don' ; t seem so involved with the material things and I-- I' ; m sure that I' ; m just completely blind to like a whole other group of, of kids who are my own age but I just like lumped all Japanese Americans together. In fact, one of my--she didn' ; t go to my high school she went to the next high school but she was in Pasadena, and Pasadena' ; s not that big of a city. But she is that filmmaker, Renee Tajima. And I actually--they were family friends of ours, and I had no idea that she was an activist, I mean she made that film about Vincent Chin and I didn' ; t learn about that ' ; till way later and I remember thinking wow she could have been my friend and yet I' ; d like was so snobby because I just had this stereotype of Japanese American kids. Boy--both boys and girls. JJU: Do you wanna talk a little bit about like your activism now or anything like that? LA: Well it' ; s really nice to be able to, to relate to a group of people that you have historical background. And I guess I never, I never realized that that could be so comforting in a way. And I sort of understand, I remember people like right after George Floyd was murdered, I remember people saying oh you know be really careful with your black friends don' ; t burden them with questions about, what it' ; s--you know how you survived this oppression your whole life and all this stuff. And after those murders in Georgia, I became like hyper-aware that of who was not acknowledging that it had happened or who was acknowledging that it had happened and sort of the responsibility that I felt like a weariness of " ; Oh I' ; m going to have to explain why this is bad and where I fit into the picture." ; And so it' ; s kind of nice if, if you' ; re in with a group of Japanese Americans you kind of already sort of know what that history is and you don' ; t have to like go back and explain it and so it' ; s kind of like this realization, " ; Oh that' ; s what they meant" ; about how you know they were just, people were so tired of thinking about George Floyd thinking about Black Lives Matter marches, and their own personal lives being a black person. I can finally, I think I finally can empathize with that and know what it means. It' ; s not about, it' ; s not necessarily even about being angry about what you' ; ve been angry about your whole life, but it' ; s about, yeah just having to sort of carry that weight and move through the world with that. And so yeah that' ; s kind of what I' ; m thinking. And then the other thing is that this whole narrative that I' ; ve had my whole life about how I' ; m basically white, I can really see why people were so mad at me, some of my Japanese American friends when I would say that. Like I' ; ve had friends just look at me like they can' ; t even believe that these words came out of my mouth, and I know that it' ; s because of my upbringing and and then I was brought up in those particular circles and my neighborhood. But it' ; s also-- I can see now that maybe it' ; s, it' ; s kind of a betrayal. That it' ; s like almost like the epitome of white privilege that I am exhibiting as a Japanese American and maybe that' ; s what I' ; m so mad about when I' ; ve seen other sansei who kind of seem to--to me, seem to be ignoring issues maybe that' ; s like just a mirror to what I am myself ignoring. Like my own history, or thinking that I' ; m better than it somehow. So it' ; s really interesting, but it changes every day. JJU: For some reason when you were sharing that, like I kind of came back to when you shared about being told you can' ; t be friends with that other Japanese person. LA: Yeah. JJU: And I didn' ; t ask at the time when you first shared that, but like, do you remember how that experience was for you? LA: Oh, well it was terrible. It was like being told--but you know I was so like, into following the rules. Unless it, unless it was with my mom then I was into rebelling. (Laughs) But if it was an authority figure like, like a white teacher but they were-- all the teachers were white so that doesn' ; t... that' ; s not really a good argument. But anyway with an authority figure yeah I think I just said " ; Oh yeah she' ; s right I should, I should be integrating. I shouldn' ; t hang out with someone who looks like me." ; But it' ; s weird to think about that as like a second grader or first grader like how are you... ' ; Cause kids don' ; t even notice I mean I really was not aware of race at all until she put a big sticker on it. (laughs) And maybe that' ; s why I never had any Japanese friends after that, because it was kind of like " ; No, you should be integrating." ; And you know, and I just like recently I can really understand why some black groups don' ; t want to let white people in, or Asian people in, or-- because they need to preserve that kind of safe zone. I never knew about safe zones before, like and how important and how important that is to have. Well I' ; m, kind of one of the things I' ; ve been thinking about is the connection between the people that my mom knew in the Bay Area pre-war. So I was just saying to JJ off camera that the Korematsu' ; s were really, really close friends of my mom' ; s family. So, during that whole thing when, when he didn' ; t go to camp and was able to, you know protest in whatever way, why they were singling out people to go to camp, that must have made a big impression on her. And also when she was at UC Berkeley her--one of the people she worked with as, as a student was Andreas Papandreou who became Prime Minister of Greece and he was like the first socialist to be in the Greek government. And my mom also had a connection to the lawyer, Stephen Bingham, with--who is a lawyer for the Black Panthers so and--and also the other really close family friend of theirs was Yuri Kochiyama' ; s family and Yuri Kochiyama' ; s twin brother was a good friend of my mom. So she had all these connections with these really revolutionary things that were going on! And yet after the camp, I just don' ; t understand like why, she didn' ; t have like a Japanese identity. Like I mean she never cooked Japanese food, she cooked sashimi if you can cook sashimi, occasionally. But you know she was just really super like white an-and even like when she--so after my dad left, she got a job. She had just been a housewife after, after camp and after she got married. But she got a job, like a secretarial job and she hung out with sort of the outcasts at her workplace. Which were--so you know the hierarchy you have like the doctors, and then underneath that were the gay doctors, so those were her best friends because they were outcast. So the gay doctors, and then the the lab techs, and then the nurses, and then the secretarial staff which is what my mom was. So they used to party together all the time, but she didn' ; t, it was like that side of her and then there was the Japanese American families that seemed really conservative in Pasadena, and also my mom was an outcast ' ; cause she was a divorcee and so she didn' ; t really fit in. And it wasn' ; t till she got older that she started like reconnecting with her Japanese American-ness even though I mean she always had friends, but I guess she just never, she always felt like an outcast. So I wonder if that' ; s ' ; cause of that whole sort of conformity that a lot of JAs subscribe to after camp. JJU: Any, any other kind of things that you want to share? LA: Well yeah I guess the, the other thing is the whole model minority myth, and that I just feel like there are so many secrets in, in nisei families that they didn' ; t talk about because they were trying so hard to conform. And I mean they were just, you know like when there were suicides and things and no one would tell you it was a suicide they would just tell you oh someone just all of a sudden died, and never talk about it! I mean I still don' ; t know to this day, but I just had cousins who would suddenly disappear and I wouldn' ; t know why. I mean, I don' ; t know if it' ; s because the family felt so much shame and--so is it a Japanese thing, or is that because of conforming after you come out of camp? And then, yeah my father was in jail after, after camp just for a stupid business deals that he did I mean... but no one ever talked about that and you know he was, he lived on Skid Row he was bankrupt, even though he was highly educated. It' ; s just, this whole thing of shame. So is that a Japanese thing, or because you' ; re trying to conform and put this image on your family after camp? I mean it' ; s probably a combination of both but-- I don' ; t hear any of those stories. I mean people just like my gen, I don' ; t know maybe it' ; s different in the next generations. But my generation, they either say they don' ; t remember, or they never heard from their parents or they just don' ; t talk about stuff. JJU: Are you kind of like more willing to talk about stuff you think? LA: Than other people? JJU: Yeah. LA: Yeah maybe, but that' ; s ' ; cause I' ; m so white! (laughs) I don' ; t know. JJU: Well thank you, I know you brought some documents and stuff, is there anything else that you wanted to share or include in the interview? LA: Well let' ; s see, yeah there' ; s a lot of interesting history about the family in Japan, but I guess that' ; s not really that pertinent necessarily. My grandmother did... She went to get her-- she got citizenship in the 60s I think. Or maybe it was even later? And she wrote a poem about becoming a citizen, which I think, I could never understand how she could be so... Sort of feel patriotic after going through the whole war experience. Let me see if I can find it. Oh okay, so she belonged to a, a club so lots of niseis--or I mean--lots of isseis belong to sort of poetry clubs. And I have a bunch of her poetry, but I can' ; t read it, it' ; s all in kanji and, anyway, so here' ; s a translation of one of hers. So it' ; s: Going steadily to study English Even through the rain at night I thus attained late in life, American citizenship Kiyoko Nieda San Leandro, California Yeah, so she was really proud of, of getting her citizenship. Why? I don' ; t understand. I guess she was happy to be a Californian. JJU: Yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t have any other kind of questions right now. So if you don' ; t have anything else that you wanted to share... LA: Yeah I ca--I mean I don' ; t know if there' ; s anything... I think we pretty much-- JJU: Thank you for how much you' ; ve shared. LA: Oh, (laughs) I hope I didn' ; t share too much. JJU: Not on our end. (laughs) LA: Yeah it' ; s kind of, I' ; m sure like, I should--I wish I could find that teacher from high school and find out what happened to him, because I wonder if he was just doing that all the time, reaching out to kids he thought needed to be politicized. (laughs) Or you know, or maybe I just looked so clueless that I just, you know and he just felt like if, if no one told me I was Japanese I would never know. I would go through my whole life without knowing. I don' ; t know, he really I mean really felt like it was his mission to enlighten me that way. JJU: Well you figured it out eventually! (laughs) LA: I eventually figured it out! (laughs) Well I mean--they say it takes like, you know a lot of people don' ; t become interested in their history or their lineage until they' ; re in their 50s ' ; cause you' ; re so busy with your life up to then... Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AshikawaLori20210331.xml AshikawaLori20210331.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 ","Sansei^^ Cultural Reclamation^^ Japanese American Identity^^ Topaz^^ Pasadena^^ Bay Area",0300,,,,,,,"Ashikawa, Lori",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/cc85b3b47ed903aa868d5ba7ac81cc61.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
458,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/458,"Fujii, Sono and Midori (6/9/2021)",,"Sisters Sono and Midori ""Dori"" Fujii were born and raised in Chicago in the 1950s and 60s. Their father was born in Gifu, Japan and their mother, a nisei, was born in San Jose, California. In this interview, they discuss their mother's experiences growing up in the Japanese American community in San Jose, their father's early life in Japan, and their family members' experiences of incarceration and resettlement in Chicago. Their mother was in college at San Jose State University prior to her incarceration at Santa Anita and then Heart Mountain, where she met Sono and Midori’s father, Ryoichi Fujii. The youngest of five children in a family that suffered financially after the death of his father, Ryoichi Fujii had a difficult childhood, taught himself English while apprenticing in a textile business, was accepted to Doshisha University, and eventually moved to the United States to study theology at Oberlin College. At Heart Mountain, he taught American history and government classes to other incarcerees. Following the war, he founded the Chicago Shimpo newspaper while Sono and Dori's mother worked in a number of roles, including as a social worker and a therapist. In sharing the experiences of their family, Sono and Midori want to ensure that younger generations understand the importance of this history and not let it be forgotten. They express that understanding this history is crucial as context for present-day social and political issues.",,,,2021-06-09,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujiiSono_FujiiMidori20210609.xml," 5.4 6/9/2021 Fujii, Sono and Midori (6/9/2021) 1:37:11 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Chicago Shimpo Santa Anita Heart Mountain Doshisha University San Jose, CA Redress Fujii, Ryoichi Hyde Park Postwar housing Fujii, Sono Fujii, Midori Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|25(11)|47(13)|58(11)|87(3)|99(6)|111(8)|124(3)|143(9)|153(13)|163(1)|175(6)|187(15)|210(2)|225(2)|234(12)|246(10)|260(1)|275(5)|293(4)|305(13)|321(9)|345(5)|378(5)|398(3)|414(10)|428(7)|448(6)|460(12)|468(14)|486(8)|502(3)|513(10)|534(14)|551(11)|561(14)|573(10)|592(10)|608(7)|623(12)|633(1)|666(4)|681(2)|693(8)|706(12)|732(9)|748(6)|769(11)|783(6)|803(10)|814(12)|827(8)|837(2)|865(7)|876(1)|894(2)|907(8)|929(15)|956(15)|967(10)|978(14)|995(2)|1016(9)|1032(5)|1043(18)|1054(2)|1067(9)|1080(1)|1095(3)|1117(10)|1130(6)|1145(13)|1165(15)|1185(2)|1200(4)|1224(8)|1247(11)|1272(9)|1289(16)|1306(5)|1323(4)|1343(3)|1359(15)|1374(13)|1381(6)|1391(13)|1409(11)|1423(4)|1437(7)|1462(10)|1474(4)|1481(3)|1492(10)|1507(1)|1516(11)|1524(1)|1535(7) 0 https://vimeo.com/582590267/6aecedb9b4 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/582590267?h=6aecedb9b4" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Sisters Sono and Midori " ; Dori" ; Fujii were born and raised in Chicago in the 1950s and 60s. Their father was born in Gifu, Japan and their mother, a nisei, was born in San Jose, California. In this interview, they discuss their mother's experiences growing up in the Japanese American community in San Jose, their father's early life in Japan, and their family members' experiences of incarceration and resettlement in Chicago. Their mother was in college at San Jose State University prior to her incarceration at Santa Anita and then Heart Mountain, where she met Sono and Midori’s father, Ryoichi Fujii. The youngest of five children in a family that suffered financially after the death of his father, Ryoichi Fujii had a difficult childhood, taught himself English while apprenticing in a textile business, was accepted to Doshisha University, and eventually moved to the United States to study theology at Oberlin College. At Heart Mountain, he taught American history and government classes to other incarcerees. Following the war, he founded the Chicago Shimpo newspaper while Sono and Dori's mother worked in a number of roles, including as a social worker and a therapist. In sharing the experiences of their family, Sono and Midori want to ensure that younger generations understand the importance of this history and not let it be forgotten. They express that understanding this history is crucial as context for present-day social and political issues. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is June 9th, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee Building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln and the interviewees are Sono and Midori Fujii. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. To get us started, could you please each state your full name and your year of birth? Sono Fujii: Sono Christie Fujii, 1951. Midori Fujii: Midori Fujii, 1950. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Sono Fujii: Chicago. Midori Fujii: Both of us in Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: And is that also where you grew up? Midori Fujii: Yeah. Sono Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were your parents born and raised? Sono Fujii: Our father was born in Gifu, Japan in 1950. And our mother was, I mean, sorry, 1905. 1905, and our mother was born in 1920 in San Jose, California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And could you tell me first, a little bit about your mother' ; s family? Could you tell me where your maternal grandparents were born? Sono Fujii: Maternal grandparents... Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know when they came to the US? Midori Fujii: So, my grand, my maternal grandfather came here in the early 1900s right? He must have come in like 1910 or so? And our grandmother came in 1918, 1917, ' ; 18. Emma Saito Lincoln: So initially, your grandfather came alone. Midori Fujii: Yes. Mhm. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then was he already married and he called his wife over? Midori Fujii: No, he was not, but the marriage was through a family connection. Sono Fujii: It was an arranged marriage, but it was not a picture book marriage. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know what it was that motivated your grandfather to immigrate? Sono Fujii: We don' ; t know a lot about his family. Um, I suppose we could ask? We have one surviving aunt and one surviving uncle, but we, I don' ; t know that much. Midori Fujii: He came here, he was a businessman, which was in some ways, unusual at that time, so he came to the U.S. And then he was an insurance salesman in the Japanese American community in San Jose. Our grandmother was university-educated, very unusual at that time. She went to Doshisha. Right? Sono Fujii: I don' ; t think she went to Doshisha. Midori Fujii: Where did she go? Sono Fujii: She went to a women' ; s college. Midori Fujii: Where did she go? Okay. Sono Fujii: There' ; s, I think that' ; s in her... Midori Fujii: We should look in Issei Women it' ; s in that. Sono Fujii: Yeah. It' ; s in Issei Women or it' ; s in that book about the San Jose pioneers. I' ; ve been working on a family chronology and didn' ; t bring it with me. Emma Saito Lincoln: That' ; s perfectly alright. So in any case, she was, she was university educated-- Midori Fujii: She was. Sono Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: --which was extremely unusual. Sono Fujii: And she was Christian. Her father had been with the Japanese railroads and they were in, she spent some part of her childhood in Korea, with, working on the railroads, Japanese railroad built in Korea. I don' ; t know much about that history, I' ; m not sure it' ; s a good history, but I know she was there and she remembers the cold. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, let' ; s fast forward a little bit, and would you be able to tell me a little bit about your mother' ; s childhood in California? Do you know much about what that experience was like for her? Midori Fujii: I think we know a fair amount, just anecdotally. So she grew up, she was one of eight children, seven surviving, and the kids spanned an 18-year period. They lived next door to, what were the Okagakis to them? Sono Fujii: Mr. Okagaki was her uncle and he knew Mr. Kimura, our grandfather. He knew Mr. Kimura. I think they were somehow both involved with the Japanese newspaper in town? I' ; ve seen connection-- I' ; ve, I' ; ve seen that they were both involved... I didn' ; t necessarily put it together, but they may... Anyway, my grandmother was one of three sisters and I don' ; t know how it happened, but she was the one who came to the United States and married Toshio Kimura. And they lived together. Midori Fujii: So, the Okagakis and the Kimuras live next door to each other. I mean, literally, like no fence. Sono Fujii: There was, there was these big, there was this big house, these two big houses, and the kids sort of ran back and forth. And even when-- they sort of paired off by age. Midori Fujii: So there were, so the, there were nine Okagakis-- kids, so there were like, in all, like what, 16 kids in this like big extended family? I think the other thing that' ; s notable at that time is that there were laws against Asians owning property, correct? And I know that for our grandparents, and I' ; m assuming for the Okagakis, too, and one of the people in town signed, an American white, Caucasian citizen, signed the deeds so that the, the property was in his name and not in our grandparents' ; name. And then when my mom and her older brother-- her younger brother became of age, because they were born in the U.S., They were able to transfer title to the house. To their names. Sono Fujii: I think it, I think it went to Mom' ; s name. Midori Fujii: Mom' ; s name first. Sono Fujii: And then when she married and came to Chicago- Midori Fujii: Married, okay. Correct. You' ; re right. Sono Fujii: She transferred it to her older brother, no to her brother and then the n-next oldest sister. Midori Fujii: Right, but it was all of that sort of the land laws were like a big issue and probably one of the things that saved the house during the war when the, when people were evacuated, right? Because the house wasn' ; t in their name. So, it actually probably protected the family in a way that' ; s sort of weird. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know, other than living in very close proximity to the Okagaki family, did your mother' ; s family live within a Japanese American community? Sono Fujii: Yes. So, my grandmother, until she died, was very active in the Methodist Church. It' ; s a Japanese American Methodist church that was like two or three blocks. They lived in what is still now Japantown of San Jose. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Geographically, they' ; ve, I don' ; t know, somehow the city has mapped that out and they' ; re in that quadrant. Sono Fujii: Right. But the interesting thing about that, the school boundaries, there was just a little bit of Japantown that was in one school and there was, a majority of Japantown was in another school. And, Mom always said that she went to Jefferson School. She and the Minetas and the Okagakis, so Norm Mineta' ; s, Norman Mineta' ; s family was in that area, and Mr. Mineta was also an insurance salesman. They went to the better school and the other' ; s kids that went to a different part of, different school. It wasn' ; t as good. It was closer to the canneries. So, when we would visit, I remember visiting there in the 1960s, there was still a Del Monte processing plant, where you would hear the whistle blow and there was this big like water tower with the Del Monte sign. Midori Fujii: But I, but I would say what, what is really striking about our mom' ; s childhood and it' ; s and my grandfather, was like quite a... He has, like bo-- I don' ; t know, baskets of family video somewhere? And they had a very like typical American childhood. You know they went to the 4th of July parades, they did picnics, they went to Yosemite, they went to the ocean, my mom, you know my da-- my grandfather made ketchup in the backyard, you know it was kind of, you know a very, you know very American childhood in a lot of ways for the times. And they were also the Japanese that were living in town as opposed to the Japanese that were more doing agricultural work right? Sono Fujii: ' ; Cause that was when Santa Clara Valley was like this big fruit and vegetable basket and so there were a lot of truck farmers in, in Santa Clara Valley. Midori Fujii: So I do think that... So the backdrop to everything that happened later, in terms of the evacuation was, I mean, it was striking. So this was not a family that was like... You know, they observed Japanese custom and some holidays, but it was a very American family. My, like my mom and her siblings took piano lessons. They you know, did their school song. And, my aunt and my grandmother could still... n- my aunt and my mom would like sing their like junior high school song, you know so it was like really pretty a normal, typical American childhood and I don' ; t think it ever occurred to my mom or to her dad that anything like the evacuation could happen, um and it just, not. Although Japantown was Japantown right? It was still pretty segregated. And as I think Sono alluded to, in, she mentioned it in the write up. When my mother' ; s brother, who was I think older than her or just a hair younger- Sono Fujii: No he was, he was, she was the first born, he was born... Midori Fujii: --was born, he died within a very few days of his birth. My, our grandfather couldn' ; t bury him in the regular communit-- in the regular cemetery and needed to find a plot for him way at the edge of the cemetery in town because he was not permitted, I guess. I don' ; t know exactly what the law was, but... Sono Fujii: And I, right, right, but there' ; s a, now there' ; s a Japanese section. Midori Fujii: Yeah, in that cemetery. Sono Fujii: --in that cemetery and that' ; s where the rest of the family is buried. That' ; s where all the Okagakis and the Kimuras are buried, but Megumi is still way out. Midori Fujii: Way out by the fence. Sono Fujii: Way out by the... Midori Fujii: Literally, I' ; m serious, by the highway. Sono Fujii: --by the highway. And actually my mom, when she died, she asked that some of her ashes be buried with him ' ; cause she didn' ; t like him being there all by himself. Emma Saito Lincoln: So other than what you' ; ve already mentioned about the restrictions on property ownership and cemetery segregation, are you aware of other ways in which your mother' ; s family felt discriminated against during that time? Sono Fujii: I mean... Midori Fujii: Not directly, I think... You know, after all, so my mom was like, she was like, how old, 21 when the war started, right? In 1941. So she was the oldest of her siblings and she was in college. Sono Fujii: She was at San Jose State. Midori Fujii: She doesn' ; t really talk a lot about the racism that no doubt was present right? And some of the political stuff, in terms of the economic kind of like biases and practices that were trying to marginalize the Japanese community, in particular. You know, and I' ; m sure that everybody was aware of the, the alien laws then and the fact that her parents couldn' ; t be citizens, but I don' ; t know that that was like a front and present issue. Do you get a sense of it? Sono Fujii: I think it, I think it showed up in... I' ; m not, I don' ; t think it was like in your face all the time but I remember, I think I must have been in high school, I asked my mom if she went to her prom and she said no. And she said that one of the-- she' ; d overheard a conversation between some of the Caucasian kids that one of the Nisei boys was taking another Nisei girl and the comment was, " ; Yeah, she' ; s his girlfriend," ; and it was sort of like this sort of idea that she-- you could only ask another Nisei to prom. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I think that probably was really clear. You didn' ; t cross racial lines like that. That was probably, I think, the more... Sort of the, those norms then, were probably... Sono Fujii: And I also, I don' ; t know about how many friends she had. We don' ; t know how many friends she had or if she had friends in the Caucasian community because the families, were so... There were so many kids. Like the Okagakis were, Mr. and Mrs. Okagaki were a little bit older than my grandparents and they had, some of their older children were maybe seven or eight years older than my mother, who was the oldest. But like my mom was paired up with someone, she was paired up with Ellen and Eddie and Janet were paired up. Midori Fujii: You know so when the families would go, I mean they, when they would go, like that those pairs, but when they would go on a like a family trip, obviously you don' ; t take 16 kids. Or even if you could, they' ; re not all the same age. But they, those cohorts, like five or six of them would pile in the car and go with our grandfather, so some of the Okagakis, some of my mom' ; s. So, but they like, so Mom and Guyo and Ellen and those guys would always do something together. So, it' ; s like a, a really close cousinship right? Sono Fujii: Right. I mean, even though they weren' ; t, I mean technically... Our grandmother was cousins to the Okagaki kids but generationally, I mean, she was aligned with her aunt and uncle. But I think that also, my mom said it made my grandmother' ; s life challenging because she had to be obedient to her husband, her aunt, and her uncle. Midori Fujii: So yeah, maybe one of the things, to add is that she' ; s 15 years younger than our grandfather and that wasn' ; t that uncommon then, and that' ; s the age difference between our parents. Emma Saito Lincoln: So your grandmother was 15 years younger than your grandfather, and then your mother also was 15 years younger than your father. Midori Fujii: Correct. Emma Saito Lincoln: And so I' ; m getting the sense that you' ; re not quite sure how much social interaction or friendship your mother had outside of that large familial unit because there were so many children. Midori Fujii: Yeah you know what? I think the thing that it, the way I would say is notable by its absence is their conversation about relationships outside of that cohort or pictures of people outside. Sono Fujii: But we don' ; t have a, we don' ; t have a lot of pictures of their growing up? Midori Fujii: Well, there' ; s, Juni has a lot. They did in San Jose. There' ; s a lot of albums there. And then there' ; s a lot of like photography, like video, whatever you call it, motion picture right on those, on those slides, and the big reels, but those are all of family and Japanese holidays and the 4th of July. And I think one of the things that my mom talked a lot about was building floats for the 4th of July, ' ; cause it' ; s California right, and you can just put flowers and everything on them, and so that was kind of a big deal. Emma Saito Lincoln: So let' ; s fast forward a little bit. You mentioned that your mother was in college when Pearl Harbor happened, and... Midori Fujii: Wasn' ; t she at San Jose State? Sono Fujii: She was at San Jose State. I actually just saw this last night in the materials that you brought over. There was her transcript from, I don' ; t know it was from San Jose State... It said that she was enrolled in the spring semester at San Jose State in 1942 and she withdrew on May 27th, 1942, but she was granted like 10 and one quarter credit hours for the work that she' ; d completed. And it' ; s like, " ; Yeah, that' ; s when she was shipped off to Santa Anita." ; Midori Fujii: Well, of note they, where they sent the transcript was to her father in Heart Mountain. That' ; s the mailing address on the transcript. Sono Fujii: The mailing, it says that your guardian and it gives his name and his barrack address and that just like, that' ; s just like... devastating. Emma Saito Lincoln: What year was she in school? Was she quite close to graduating at that point? Sono Fujii: She went to ... What' ; s the other thing we saw, I saw last night? She went to NYU. She was, she had attended school at NYU and I think this was stuff that she asked for when she applied to go to graduate school in the early 1960s, so she' ; s got these transcripts. You know-- Midori Fujii: So she left camp, I think, to go to, to NYU. You could leave, right? You could leave Heart Mountain if you had a place to go that wasn' ; t in the Western command. So I think she went first, I think she went to NY-- to New York, and then she went to Cleveland and worked for the American Friends Service Committee. I think that' ; s the sequence, right? Sono Fujii: I' ; m not sure. I haven' ; t gotten that far, but there' ; s- Midori Fujii: Something like that. Sono Fujii: But there' ; s, but yeah, I was surprised to see that she' ; d gone to NYU. I was like, " ; I didn' ; t know that." ; Midori Fujii: Not for long. Sono Fujii: But like maybe, but she definitely left from... And she left camp before Daddy did. She left before he did, which surprised me to read that. But I think he was doing work with the WRA in camp. Midori Fujii: Correct. And I think she graduated from San Jose State. Sono Fujii: Yes. Her diploma is from San Jose State. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. So maybe the credits that she received after leaving camp were applied toward her degree at San Jose. Sono Fujii: Right, they transferred. Emma Saito Lincoln: So let' ; s back up a little bit then, to, to Pearl Harbor. And you mentioned Santa Anita and then Heart Mountain. Did her whole family go together? Sono Fujii: Yes. Midori Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: And the Okagaki family, also? Sono Fujii: No. One of the Okaga--Two of the Okagakis, so... Henry was the oldest Okagaki son. He had already, I think he' ; d married and he was a doctor? He was not there. He did not get evacuated. Midori Fujii: Who? Sono Fujii: Henry. Midori Fujii: Henry? Sono Fujii: Henry and Martha. Midori Fujii: Yeah, he was in Wisconsin and somebody else was in Denver. Sono Fujii: That was Guyo , Guyo married Larry Tajiri, who was the... Midori Fujii: Rocky Mountain Shinbun, right? Sono Fujii: No, I thought the Pacific Citizen. Midori Fujii: Pacific. Okay. Sono Fujii: Pacific Citizen. And they, they were in either Salt Lake City or in Denver and I think, I think I have a memory of when they were being transported from Santa Anita to Heart Mountain. They may have seen Guyo and Larry like at the train station or something. Midori Fujii: So the only reas-- every, all the younger Okagakis were, went to Heart Mountain. It was only the, the people that were old enough not to be in San Jose when this happened. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. I' ; d like to pick up the thread on incarceration in a little bit. But first, I' ; d, I' ; d like to talk about your father and his story and how he came to the U.S. So, let' ; s start with, what could you tell me about your father' ; s family in Japan? Midori Fujii: You want me to do that? Sono Fujii: You can, sure. Midori Fujii: So our dad was one of five children, and the only boy. Sono Fujii: And the youngest. Midori Fujii: The youngest of five and the only boy. He was born, his dad, he was what, 15 months or two years or something like that when his dad died, leaving a lot of debt. Sono Fujii: Yeah his, his dad had co-signed for debt for some of his workers. His dad owned a... My father described it as a transportation company, but really, it was like a rickshaw company, where you know people... It wasn' ; t a taxi. It was a human taxi. Midori Fujii: So, I think one of the things that' ; s really notable is my, our dad almost never talked about his childhood. It was only when we were like in college, even. And I finally said to my dad, " ; You just have to talk to us a little bit. We don' ; t know anything." ; And I think we knew a little from our mom. His childhood was, was extremely difficult. They were extremely poor. So the things that we knew about my dad were like anecdotal. Like, he had malnutrition illnesses when he was a kid. And so we knew he had beriberi, but you know because you' ; re a kid, you' ; re like, okay whatever. Sono Fujii: --said he had tapeworms. Midori Fujii: He had, yeah, parasites, a lot of different things. And we knew, and then as we got older, we knew that some, several of his sisters had died before they really reached adulthood. And so he really didn' ; t talk a lot about some of that history because it was, I think, so difficult. And it, so he was apprenticed... In Japan at that time, public school was only free until, I guess you were in- Sono Fujii: Sixth grade. Like sixth grade. Midori Fujii: Middle school, sixth grade, something like that. And my dad writes in his, in the little letter that, in some of the correspondence that he wrote to us, that, you know he was a bright kid and he was respected in his class. But when he was in sixth grade, he couldn' ; t go forward because he had-- Sono Fujii: His mother couldn' ; t afford to send-- Midori Fujii: His mom couldn' ; t afford to send him. So she apprenticed him to a silk merchant. And I think that was like, he writes about that as being deeply upsetting and feeling, I think very left behind. Sono Fujii: And, and very angry. Midori Fujii: Yeah. So, don' ; t know a lot about those years except that he studied and went-- He didn' ; t go to school, but he studied English and he studied whatever he needed to study to pass the college entrance exams. Sono Fujii: Right so... So I' ; ve found- Midori Fujii: That part you found. Sono Fujii: That part I found. He was apprenticed to a silk merchant in Kyoto in what I think is the Nishijin district, which is known for its weaving. And it was very, very hard work. And he was expected to work like six days a week until 10 o' ; clock at night. And so he became, I don' ; t know how, but he somehow connected with the local Christian Church there and learned that Doshisha University would accept people if you didn' ; t have, you didn' ; t have to have a middle school and high school education diploma to get into, into Doshisha but you needed to learn English. You needed to know English. And so because he had to work until 10 o' ; clock at night, he couldn' ; t, he couldn' ; t go to night school. So he took correspondence classes to learn English. And he told the owner of the store that he was doing this to, to improve the business prospects for the store. I mean he' ; s... So that he could get the owner to support him doing this. But he talks about studying at night with his kimono over his head so that he wouldn' ; t disturb the other apprentices and the other people. And I think he came to understand that there wasn' ; t a lot of future there because it was probably very tightly controlled. I don' ; t know if there was a system of guilds or apprenticeships or... But there wasn' ; t a lot of opportunity. He said you could stay in the same position for years and years and-- Midori Fujii: There wasn' ; t that mobility in Japan in general at that time. Sono Fujii: Right. So he, for him to have gone to, to university was, it took an incredible amount of discipline. Midori Fujii: It also crossed a line with his mother because she' ; s, was a devout Buddhist. And he is now, Christianity was sort of the, sort of path to education at that time in some ways. So, and I think he was just interested in it. Sono Fujii: Right. But she was a very, she was a very devout Buddhist. Midori Fujii: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Sono Fujii: I mean, to the extent of when, when my dad was younger, the French Air Force was helping the Japanese develop their air force. And he got very interested and he would go and he would watch. And I actually did a little research on this and there was like a, an airbase nearby and there still is an airbase, I think near Gifu. And I think his grades slipped. And his mother said to him, " ; How can I face your father in paradise?" ; It' ; s like, oh. Midori Fujii: Just don' ; t have anything on Catholic guilt huh? Sono Fujii: Just like Catholic guilt, Jewish guilt. Midori Fujii: Buddhist guilt. There you go. Sono Fujii: Buddhist guilt. Emma Saito Lincoln: So it sounds like through sheer determination and discipline, your father as a self-taught man was accepted into Doshisha University. And what did he study there? Do you know? Sono Fujii: It was a Christian Protestant school. That was, I mean, it had a lot of connections with American universities. I mean, I think you were mentioning Amherst and-- Midori Fujii: And Oberlin. Sono Fujii: And Oberlin. And he... He, he did... You were talking about the, the conflict with his mom about going to... This conversion to Christianity. And she, she went and talked to her priest and he, he gave it his blessing. And so his mom was okay with it because I think he said he' ; s, he' ; s you know advancing his education and you know it' ; s to make him a better person. So he came to the United States in-- Midori Fujii: Well, I think there' ; s like, there' ; s another piece in there. So then he was in, he had to do a, what a, I guess what we would call an internship now. And he worked in some of these very extremely impoverished communities in Japan. Sono Fujii: That was the Nishijin Weavers. Midori Fujii: Was that where he worked in that community as a minister? Sono Fujii: Yeah. Midori Fujii: Okay. Sono Fujii: Yeah. Midori Fujii: But he said, so this is in one of his letters, that he became really disillusioned with the church. That, that the church really didn' ; t have the answers of like, you know in the life hereafter. And you just have to like- Sono Fujii: You have to suffer. Midori Fujii: You have to suffer. Sono Fujii: And then you get your reward when you die. Midori Fujii: And he just thought that that was like, that the church had nothing to offer the people who he was trying to minister to. And I think that was one of the reasons he came to the U.S. He thought that by coming to, to the theology school and working on his master' ; s degree in theology, that he would find some answers. So then he did come to the U.S. I think in 1931, Oberlin had an exchange program. I think they still do with some of the, the Japanese universities. I don' ; t know if it' ; s, the Shansi program is there now. I don' ; t know if he was part of that or what it was. But he came to Oberlin and eventually earned his master' ; s degree in divini-- in theology. But never became ordained because in part, he decided that in fact the church, even though he had a master' ; s and was working on a theology degree also did not have a great deal to offer people who were... he was pretty disi--, I think pretty disillusioned. I don' ; t know whether that' ; s the word. Not a fan of that. So he stepped away. Emma Saito Lincoln: So he comes to the, he comes to the U.S., he gets his master' ; s in theology, and then he steps away from, from the church. Where was he living when Pearl Harbor happened? Sono Fujii: So, so there' ; s like from 1934 to 1941 we' ; re talking about. So he' ; s in Oberlin in 1934, and at that time he' ; d already become very, very opposed to the rise of militarism in Japan. And apparently there were a lot of heated discussion groups at Oberlin among some of the Japanese students there. Midori Fujii: Because the Manchurian invasion was in like the-- Sono Fujii: There was Manchurian, the Mukden bridge incident. And I mean, he writes about how he, he had intended, his plan was to return to Japan even though he didn' ; t like what was going on there. But he had to make money to earn his return fare. And so he had worked in New York at restaurants in the summers and he went back to New York and was working there. Midori Fujii: So, so the thing that' ; s... The other thing that sort of fits in here is that he didn' ; t come to the United States as Ryoichi Fujii, right? He came here as Katsu Asano. And I don' ; t know exactly when he, when in that period, but it would' ; ve been in that period. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: He decided to change his name and overstay his student visa. Sono Fujii: He also joined the American Communist Party. Midori Fujii: Right. Sono Fujii: Because it was the only-- Midori Fujii: Vocal group? Sono Fujii: Vocal group against Japanese militarism. And I also think that you know his experiences in Japan with the workers, the weavers, really sort of led him more to, more sympathetic to that than unbridled capitalism. So, he' ; s in the American Communist Party in New York, and then he gets to Los Angeles. Midori Fujii: God knows how, right? Sono Fujii: I don' ; t know how. I mean, I' ; m still piecing that together. And I, and he becomes involved with the party there as well. And I' ; m not exactly sure what he' ; s doing there. Is he working in a restaurant? Is he working in Japantown? Where is he living? I don' ; t know. But anyway, he' ; s in Los Angeles when Pearl Harbor happens and he' ; s sent to Santa Anita. Emma Saito Lincoln: So your mother' ; s family and your father all ended up in Santa Anita. Sono Fujii: Right. And that' ; s where they met. Midori Fujii: Actually, I think our dad met our grandmother first. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Because he was teaching American history classes? Sono Fujii: American history, American government. And he, he felt that it was important-- He always, I mean because he was opposed to militarism, he always felt that America was a better solution, was you know, the answer. And he wanted the Issei to understand more about America, American history, and American government. And so he started teaching these classes. But, and this what' ; s so interesting, we still have his books from that era and- Midori Fujii: Books he purchased. Sono Fujii: Books he purchased on American history and on American government. And, and some of them, I mean we, I can tell by the copyright date, the publication date that they would' ; ve been you know pre-war or during that time. And some of them even have his name and his barrack address from like Heart Mountain or Santa Anita. So that makes me happy to know that this would' ; ve been one of his sources. And years later, Henri Mom, Mrs. Okagaki, the kids, she was called Henri Mom for Henry' ; s mom told me that when she was in camp, she would go to my dad' ; s lectures. And she said, " ; And we called him sensei." ; It' ; s like, okay. Midori Fujii: So the books are books on Lincoln, Jeffersonian democracy, Thomas Payne. What are the other ones in there at that period? The Federalist Papers. Just a bunch of like really you know classic sort of American history kind of. Emma Saito Lincoln: And he was teaching these classes both at Santa Anita and at- Midori Fujii: At Heart Mountain. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Primarily to the Issei. Sono Fujii: Yeah, to the Issei. Emma Saito Lincoln: Now your mother and father met at Santa Anita. Did they kind of strike up with each other right away? Midori Fujii: Did they meet at Santa Anita? Sono Fujii: They must have. Midori Fujii: Well, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know where exactly they met. Sometime during the war through her mom. Sono Fujii: Through her mom or her dad. Midori Fujii: Yeah. And her mom was like not, not a f- said he' ; s too much older. I think partly because that' ; s her experience. But they liked him. I mean, he was like respectable enough. Sono Fujii: And he was, he was not that much younger than she was. Midori Fujii: Who? Sono Fujii: Daddy was-- Daddy. I mean, Daddy was born in 1905. Grandma was born in like, 19-- 1898, 1897, something like that? So I know that when they wanted to get married, she was a little bit, she was a little concerned because she' ; d been widowed so young and she didn' ; t want that to you know, happen to my mom and have seven kids. Midori Fujii: So I think the other thing in terms of the war, our mom was like devastated by the evacuation and the war. And I think my dad, our dad, not so much. He was like, kind of like, that' ; s what governments do. I don' ; t think he, for a number of reasons, of course, number one, he' ; s not a U.S. citizen. He' ; s not born here. Sono Fujii: He doesn' ; t have family here. Midori Fujii: He doesn' ; t have family here. But also he grew up in, in militaristic Japan, right? Where governments did whatever. And so I don' ; t think, he didn' ; t experience a sense of betrayal that my, our mom and grandfather experienced. It' ; s very different. I mean I think he believed in this country and that kind of thing, but I don' ; t think it undermined him in the same way. I think his, the challenge that he had was not going back to Japan ' ; cause he left his mom, her only son, and he never returned. And she died before, you know during the war or shortly thereafter. So you know that sort of, in terms of his history, I would think that' ; s probably the sort of the defining moment is not going back, not taking care of her, not reassuring her. Because he remembers her saying goodbye to him and at the har-- at Yokohama Harbor. And that' ; s like, I think a searing moment for him. And I don' ; t think he, he never recovered from that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Right. Because in the lead up to the war he was in Los Angeles and, and trying to save up money to return to Japan, is... You think? Midori Fujii: Yeah. Sono Fujii: I don' ; t know when he gave up the idea of returning to Japan. I do know that at one point the party asked for his passport and he gave it to them. And I think at that point, that' ; s when he became undocumented, illegal, whatever. And that plus his joining the party were what, was the basis for the, his arrest in 1953. Midori Fujii: So I think he changed his name in LA, right? It wasn' ; t in New York. I don' ; t know. It was one of those like weird things. Like, pick a name and then he picked a name. Didn' ; t seem like it was a real thought through. Right? Sono Fujii: Ryoichi though, I think the name, the name has significance though. It' ; s Ichi is number one. Midori Fujii: Okay. Sono Fujii: So, I' ; m not sure what the kanji are. Midori Fujii: But so he was known as Bob Fujii and I know that was- Sono Fujii: Because I think Ryoichi was just way too hard for Americans to pronounce. Midori Fujii: So like, just call me Bob or Robert or whatever. So it was just one of those, how did that happen? Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were growing up, did you know that your father had changed his name at some point? Sono Fujii: I didn' ; t know until I was in high school. And it was... You' ; d found out earlier. Midori Fujii: I don' ; t think so. Sono Fujii: Mmmmm, I thought you' ; d found out earlier, you' ; d seen some papers or something? Midori Fujii: Yeah, not really. I don' ; t think so. I mean if it was, it' ; s like one of those things that just doesn' ; t register at that age, you' ; re in high school, you just immigration and all that is, it' ; s not front and center in the conversation. But back then, not so much. We knew vaguely kind of about the, the deportation hearings and that kind of thing, but it-- Sono Fujii: I didn' ; t, all I knew was that daddy wasn' ; t working anymore. We were eating a lot of grilled cheese and tomato soup and he was home. Midori Fujii: Right. That' ; s what we knew. Sono Fujii: That' ; s what we knew. Emma Saito Lincoln: And this is after the war? Correct? During your childhood. Sono Fujii: Right. So he' ; s arrested in 1953. And I think it' ; s not until 1956 that the deportation proceedings are finally finished. I mean, they' ; re put behind the, the officer renders his decision and they suspend deportation proceedings. Which is another long story. Midori Fujii: So we' ; ve jumped ahead here. Emma Saito Lincoln: Yeah, let' ; s, let' ; s back up a little bit to when everybody' ; s still in camp. Midori Fujii: Okay. Emma Saito Lincoln: And you mentioned a sense of betrayal that your mother and grandfather felt, and I' ; m wondering if you could expand on that a little bit. What do you know of, of their time in camp and how they felt about it? Sono Fujii: So when they got to, I think this was Heart Mountain. When they got to Heart Mountain, they were a family of nine. So two, two parents, my mother who would' ; ve been 20- Midori Fujii: 22. Sono Fujii: 22, by that time, late, 21, 22. And Yo who would' ; ve been six or seven maybe? Midori Fujii: No, she was born in ' ; 37. Sono Fujii: So she would' ; ve been five. In a one bedroom, in a one room. And that just wasn' ; t going to work for my mother. And both, I heard from several, several members of the family that my mom went down and she demanded more space and she got it. I mean, she just wasn' ; t going to put up with it. And she, she got more space for the family. Was still not a lot of space, but my fath- our grandfather had a correspondence with, I think her name was Nancy Cotherine. Midori Fujii: Nancy Cotherine, Nancy Storm? Sono Fujii: He had a correspondence with a friend on the outside. Midori Fujii: Caucasian. Sono Fujii: Caucasian, and I... Midori Fujii: Those, there are a number of letters. Sono Fujii: There are a number of letters which, she gave to my mom and me. She' ; d saved them. And we don' ; t have her side of the correspondence, but we have his correspondence. And she gave it to us in 1972 and we donated it to the Hoover Institute. So that correspondence now is there. Midori Fujii: We might have copies of it here. Sono Fujii: We do, we definitely have copies of it. But he speaks very clearly about his sense of betrayal. And one of his quotes was used in that- Midori Fujii: " ; Then they came for..." ; Sono Fujii: " ; And then they came for me" ; , the exhibit that was here. It said, ' ; I never thought I' ; d see my children behind barbed wire.' ; And it was like Toshio Kimura. And it was like, " ; oh my God" ; . And he died. He got his family back and he was dead within a month. Just, killed him. Midori Fujii: So I think that like if I think about our, that family, like the war was devastating. I think that other families have, other people have written about the way in which the, they way in which camp was set up and the, the dining situation and that kind of thing really destroyed the family unit. ' ; Cause, and particularly the, the people that would' ; ve been affected by that would' ; ve been our uncles are, who were sort of in that eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 age where they' ; re just old enough to be out and running around. And I think that the boys for probably reasons of that and also some of the prejudice against Asian men, that kind of thing, were really, really impacted by the war in a way that was, I don' ; t think we really understand all that at this point. Sono Fujii: And that, and that their father died. Midori Fujii: And then upon return home, their dad died within a month. So, and so now their mom is like, you know she is a, she' ; s a widow. She' ; s caring for kids, like five kids, right? Or four kids of school age or high school. The older kids would' ; ve been my mom, my, her older, her younger... The oldest three were old enough to be out. But the, the two younger boys and my aunt, particularly, were at home. And they have been, you know they' ; re the ones that came back to the house, and the racism and the prejudice and everything else that occurred, I think, post-war in San Jose and certainly were old enough to have been aware of that right before they were, they were evacuated. You know not old enough to be... I think as like young adults-- my mom was a young adult, more outraged. I think that was my mom' ; s perspective, right? Much more, she was much more angry than she was harmed by that. But I think the younger kids, if you just think about how that, that kids input that at that age, very difficult, and our grand-- I don' ; t know that my grandparents talked that much about it with them. My mom remembers her mother saying on the day they left, " ; It' ; s a beautiful day to be leaving home." ; That' ; s all she said. It' ; s like, the place is falling apart and that' ; s sort of that understated you know gaman. Sono Fujii: Yeah, shikata ga nai. Midori Fujii: Yeah, so-- Emma Saito Lincoln: So, that' ; s what she said the day they left their home to go to Santa Anita. Midori Fujii: They left, they left San Jose. That' ; s correct. Sono Fujii: " ; It' ; s a beautiful to be taking a journey." ; Midori Fujii: Yeah, so you know that there are things that didn' ; t get processed in the midst of all of that, right? Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you think you saw in your uncles and your aunt the after effects of that, now as, you know as adults, yourselves looking back on what you experienced with them? Midori Fujii: You know, only you can only infer that. Sono Fujii: And, and also you know, we were here. We were in Chicago. They were in, in California. Midori Fujii: But I do think some of-- Sono Fujii: Travel wasn' ; t that easy and certainly we didn' ; t have the money to go to, to California. I mean we saw, there' ; s pictures of mom taking us there when we were like toddlers and then we went in ' ; 60 and ' ; 63. Midori Fujii: So, I mean I have, I have a real clear opinion about that and I don' ; t feel like, that' ; s personal. That' ; s their story. And I don' ; t feel I can share that, other than to say that I think it profoundly affected them and was negative. The one thing I could say is that my uncle, who never married and was really very private and very much sort of his own person for a long time, he, he had cancer in the end of his life and he finally let some of the wall down. And the, the memories that he has of his childhood and being with his dad are just, you know they' ; re lovely memories. But it' ; s kind of heartbreaking, in the, knowing the entire context of the loss that he experienced and the absolute, I think real absence of acknowledgement of that loss right? Because after the war, everybody comes home and it' ; s a crisis. My grandmother is just trying to survive. And you know he went on to be, I mean he was like stupidly smart. He got a patent for torpedoes or something from UC Berkeley. I mean it' ; s like we went through his stuff after he died and it' ; s like you know he never shared any of it. Sono Fujii: " ; Who knew this stuff? Who knew this?" ; Midori Fujii: He was just really private about it! Sono Fujii: He has a, he has a patent for anti-roll technology. Midori Fujii: You know it' ; s like all this stuff that, and the family is like, " ; Well, who knew?" ; Right? But I think it was, you know just, I don' ; t know that people felt like they could speak up in that. I think that there was a lot of that there' ; s just too much else going on to have those conversations. So, but I would say that was, you know, we always thought that that was probably what happened, but that was a kind of a window in. But it really took, he was in his eighties when he did some art therapy and somebody said to him, " ; We need to work on this. Like, let' ; s, let' ; s do this so you can be more at peace." ; And, and he was able to do that and yeah it' ; s like, that was a gift for him for sure. Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Let' ; s switch back a little bit to your, to your mother, and also let' ; s shift forward into the postwar resettlement period. You were describing how your, your mother, partly due to what age she was when this all happened, was able to be angry about it in a way that her siblings weren' ; t. And I-- Midori Fujii: Angry and vocal. Emma Saito Lincoln: And vocal. Which plays into how history plays out later, correct? Midori Fujii: Yes. Sono Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Could we talk a little bit about that and your mother' ; s role in, in the redress movement? Sono Fujii: Um, so this would' ; ve been in the... Midori Fujii: 70s. Sono Fujii: 70s and early 80s. I have to admit, I was not, I was not hooked into what really she was doing. Midori Fujii: I don' ; t know how she got connected with William Hohri and that group, but she was. Sono Fujii: But she was and we know she gave testimony at the commission here in Chicago. Midori Fujii: She worked, she worked pretty hard with NCJAR. She has a lot of, like I would just remember a lot of conversations. But it seemed like, I think one of the things probably should comment on is that for a lot of sansei, they never really heard about the evacuation growing up, of the internm-- any of that. That was not a conversation that happened in their families, not so in our family. Sono Fujii: I mean, we definitely knew about it. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Sono Fujii: I mean, and enough so, enough so that I did a lot of research in, in college and in graduate school on it. Midori Fujii: But even as little kids right? So my mom, our mom was like pretty... I don' ; t know. Whatever you, I don' ; t know what word you would use to describe her. Sono Fujii: Vocal. I mean, she didn' ; t- Midori Fujii: Vocal, yeah but-- Sono Fujii: We knew about it. We knew that they had met there. We knew that her father had died. Because that was the only thing that made her cry. Midori Fujii: Right, I think that was the notable thing, as kids. Sono Fujii: That was the only thing that made her cry. Midori Fujii: But every time she talked about it. And she, so she wasn' ; t like a tearful person. You know that was like, a lot of things could happen and there wasn' ; t, she was dry eyed, but not this. So I think that, and you know, as a kid, you flag that as notable. And also didn' ; t realize that other families weren' ; t talking about this. Sono Fujii: Right. I mean and when we, even within her extended family. So when we went to Heart Mountain in 2015 and some of the, the sansei Okagaki were there. And this was like, this was the first time we really spent time with them, just because you know they were there. They were all... We didn' ; t grow up there. And I remember one of the Okagaki cousins saying that he didn' ; t know anything about the evacuation until he was taking piano lessons with June, our aunt. She, she gave piano lessons in the family parlor and you know I guess the Okagakis got sent over there for piano lessons. And um, she said-- he said to, he said to me, he said, " ; That' ; s how I learned about it." ; I said, " ; Your parents never talked to you about it?" ; He said, " ; No, I had not a clue." ; I mean these were, Scott is Craigy' ; s son, right? Midori Fujii: Yeah. He' ; s 60, yeah 65. I think the other thing is, when we grew up, so the Japanese, one of the areas that the Japanese resettled was in Hyde Park. right? And there were, I don' ; t think we understood that, that connection as kids. Like that was really part of Resettlers. I think that piece was just, you know there were other, some Japanese in Hyde Park. Not that many, but a fair amount, a number. And um, so that' ; s the, I think, and my, and our dad worked at the Shimpo then at that time, so... Emma Saito Lincoln: So let' ; s talk a little bit more about your growing up years then. And it, it does sound as though you, much more so than some others of your generation, were exposed to this history. Midori Fujii: We were, but we weren' ; t really an integral part of the Japanese community either, which was really odd. So my mom really had stepped away from that in some ways. I don' ; t really understand all of that. Our dad was involved in it, obviously because he was working at the Shimpo. And what-- Sono Fujii: Since there were financial costs for that. Midori Fujii: Yeah, for sure. But he would, you know he was involved with the Japanese community and the faith community more, not as a minister. But, but really was, you know we weren' ; t like sort of an integral part of that. I think one of the things, some of the, our classmates and I, I' ; ve talked with them a little bit about it as like we' ; ve gotten older and they said, " ; Oh yeah, we went to Cub Scouts with all the other sansei." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Really? You did that? I didn' ; t know that was going on." ; Well obviously- Sono Fujii: Well we wouldn' ; t have gone to Cub Scouts. Midori Fujii: We wouldn' ; t have gone to Cub Scouts. Sono Fujii: There weren' ; t, but there weren' ; t-- we were not aware of nisei or sansei-based social organizations. There was not, as far as we knew, a, a nisei church. Although there obviously were. I think, you know my-- Midori Fujii: We went to the picnics, we went to natsu matsuri. Sono Fujii: We went to those. Midori Fujii: For sure. Yeah. Sono Fujii: And then I also think that there was a, there was a real concerted effort. I mean when you read the, the history, I mean there were, when people left the camps, they were instructed not to be clannish. Not to be... Midori Fujii: To assimilate. Sono Fujii: They were told to assimilate and not to stick with their own kind and they should, they should stay away from... You know like, we didn' ; t-- There were no Japanese language schools here. We weren' ; t taught Japanese. Japanese was spoken if my parents didn' ; t want us to understand. Midori Fujii: There were Japanese schools, but not around us I think. Sono Fujii: I mean maybe there was more so on the north side? But we certainly... And I think that was like a source of friction in their marriage, too. My parents' ; marriage. That he was so involved in the Japanese community and not making a ton of money with the paper. My mom had to go back to work and I think at one point they had to take a, they had to ask one of her brothers for a loan, which I-- Midori Fujii: I think, so the other thing, you know, I guess there are a number of things. One is that because of just their background, we grew... Hyde Park is Hyde Park in Chicago and it' ; s a pretty activist community. So I remember growing up and being real involved, my parents being fairly involved in the civil rights movement and being aware of what was going on in terms of the Chicago school boycotts and that kind of thing. The other thing is that, I had thought this to be the case and then we just read through some of my dad' ; s correspondence, and I think it' ; s fair to say that his, that the paper was his ministry in, in this way, that he, when he was in camp, he really, there was a big move to try and encourage people to leave, to say, " ; You don' ; t have to stay here." ; But my dad felt like, people can' ; t come to Chicago without knowing anything. And so he was part of the Resettlers, and I think he was also part of like... he said, " ; But a community needs some way of communicating, and, and a paper is, you know, that' ; s the way to do that." ; And so I do think that, so one of his correspondence with somebody that was one of his witnesses for the deportation does allu-- does say that directly. You' ; re working in your community is, that is your ministry. You have done your work, it' ; s just been in a different way than you were originally planning. And I do, I do think that that was really very true. I also think that my dad' ; s sense of where he came from, in terms of, and the guilt he carried for leaving Japan and not going back. His, he did say one time something like, " ; I don' ; t ever want to be too comfortable." ; Like, the idea of becoming materially sort of settled. I think that that was really, he was very conflicted about that. My mom wasn' ; t. Our mom wasn' ; t. She grew up in a... she was as Sono said, we' ; re not wealthy but an established family. They had a house. They had some ownership. Sono Fujii: They had a car, yes. Midori Fujii: A car. You know those kinds of things. And so, but after the war, my dad had never had that. They came to Chicago, and I remember we, we lived in a, would' ; ve been kind of what we would call now, like well it was not really quite a one bedroom apartment. It was like a kitchen, dining room, living room altogether and then a little room off the side and a bathroom down the hall. So they didn' ; t.. When we were very young, just, just even bathing and that kind of thing, I mean if you' ; re a kid, you' ; re in the kitchen sink. If you' ; re my mom, you' ; re down the hall. And that was like, I don' ; t think that it bothered my dad in the same way. Right? I mean why would it? He was a single man, then he went to camp. My mom grew-- our mom grew up in a house, and camp was like an outrage to her. But then, you know and then she came to Chicago and married and she' ; s now going down the hall to have to go to the bathroom and have a congregate situation. They moved eventually, like not short after that, to a, a house with, that had a bathroom and a, a full bathroom within the house. But, for us that was not a big deal. But I' ; m sure for her, can' ; t imagine. Sono Fujii: Right they, they, they I mean, part of it was that the post-war housing shortage, right So a lot of these big apartments were split into multiple units. But I think the first two places we lived in were, were apartments that had been split. You know, and it wasn' ; t until 1960- Midori Fujii: ' ; 60. Sono Fujii: ' ; 60 or so that they had their own bedroom. I mean they slept on the sleeper sofa in the living room and we had the bedroom. And I mean I remember like when it was, when it would be raining and there would be big thunder, you and I would like try to go out there and crawl underneath the sleeper sofa ' ; cause we were scared. And she would say, " ; Go back to your room." ; Midori Fujii: Right, under the view that if lightning strikes it strikes you first, I guess. (laughs) Sono Fujii: But I mean I also think it was, it was also a sense of, you know, it was a privacy issue. You know? Midori Fujii: Yeah, I think they just, right, it was also like you know pull yourself, it was that like American metho-- thing about kids need to like, sleep in their own beds, that whole mentality, too. It probably was a privacy thing but... Emma Saito Lincoln: What would you say are some of the values that your parents tried to instill in you? Sono Fujii: Honesty, hard work. Midori Fujii: I don' ; t even think it was like talked about. Right? I don' ; t think. I don' ; t really- Sono Fujii: There was nothing, there was nothing, I mean, we didn' ; t go to church. We weren' ; t-- Midori Fujii: Well, we went to church eventually under our own steam, but... Sono Fujii: Right, but we didn' ; t grow up in a congregation where you were told to be a good Christian. Midori Fujii: It' ; s like my daughter said to me one time, she goes, " ; We didn' ; t have rules growing up." ; And I said, " ; What are you talking about?" ; And I said, " ; What about share, be kind, you know be honest, like work hard?" ; Sono Fujii: I think it was modeled. Midori Fujii: Yeah, and she was like, " ; Oh, those rules." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Yeah." ; She goes, " ; Well, you didn' ; t punish us. We just would never not do that." ; And that' ; s pretty much how I think we grew up. It was like, I think that' ; s in the, I don' ; t know. I mean, I don' ; t remember really being told that. Other than, I think the other thing was like, I think through stories and understanding other people' ; s sacrifice and knowing the family history, there, you know it was kind of a little bit more like, don' ; t put your needs first. Like, think about other people. Think about somebody else' ; s perspective. Don' ; t, and it was never said, don' ; t be selfish. It was, don' ; t ask for something that' ; s going to make somebody else feel bad because they can' ; t give it to you. You know that' ; s certainly a, for me, like a very big thing. Like if you, if we asked our parents for something and they couldn' ; t give it. Like, it only takes once or twice as a kid for you to look at that and say, " ; Not going to do that." ; Because they weren' ; t mean about it. They were hurt by it and you just don' ; t go there anymore. And we knew that things were not easy. Sono Fujii: But I don' ; t think we, I don' ; t think we understood how financially challenged or strapped they were. Midori Fujii: No. Sono Fujii: Because we didn' ; t, because that' ; s just what you know. I mean so, I mean I didn' ; t realize until we had, my mother would make a stir fry of hot dogs and cabbage and rice and she made another dish with kidney beans and bacon and celery and-- Midori Fujii: I think that must be camp food or something. But it was like- Sono Fujii: And she would serve it over rice. I mean, I hate kidney beans to this day. Midori Fujii: Yeah, but it was like-- Sono Fujii: But it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t until I grew up and realized that, yeah, this is, this is low income food. This is, you know we did not have, I mean, roast beef was rare. We never had roast beef. We had chicken. And of course you couldn' ; t get fish those days. I mean, you could get the blocks of frozen perch filets, but I mean we-- Midori Fujii: Right, I mean, those were the days when stores were only open until 6:00 and not on the weekends right? So that' ; s the other issue. Sono Fujii: Right, I mean the butcher shop, the butcher closed at 6:00 or 5:00, you know. So we-- Midori Fujii: No but I' ; m, it didn' ; t feel like a, a tortured, difficult childhood in that-- Sono Fujii: Yeah, I didn' ; t feel poor. Midori Fujii: Right. Sono Fujii: We had clothes. We shopped at the budget floor at Field' ; s, but I didn' ; t know what budget floor meant. I mean we just, that' ; s where we bought our clothes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you, do you think people realize, people in the Japanese community, Japanese American community today, who think about the Chicago Shimpo and, and know of your father' ; s role at the newspaper, do you think they realize that all those years that he was doing this incredibly important work that it wasn' ; t financially lucrative? Sono Fujii: I don' ; t think anybody thought of it that way? And I don' ; t think that the Japanese American community was a, was a wealthy community. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t... Sono Fujii: I mean I don' ; t know what the parents did. You know, like I mean I go, one of the, the, so there were a number of families in our neighborhood where the kids were like our age, and there was one family that lived in our building, and I know he was an auto mechanic. But I don' ; t know what the other families, you know like what Fred' ; s or Iris' ; s or David' ; s families or Fred, I don' ; t know what their parents did. I mean, they' ; re, they' ; re parents. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t, I think that, as Sono said, I don' ; t think the Japanese community was an affluent community. There were a lot of you know people that were owning a store. It seemed like a very hard working community, in general, right? If you think about Toguri' ; s or any of the ministers that were there. These were not... Sono Fujii: Franklins. Midori Fujii: There were a lot of people that were just serving the community. There was a lot of, sort of that was my sense is a community of mutual support and service and not a lot of affluence. And also I think a lot of the nisei returned to the West Coast as they hit retirement age. I mean the Japanese community in Chicago is like, it' ; s a shrinking community. You know, the issei died and the nisei left. Sono Fujii: Or they, you know they went to the suburbs. Midori Fujii: Yeah, but a lot of them returned to the West Coast. I think that' ; s right, isn' ; t it? Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were young and your father was working for the paper, did you tag along? Midori Fujii: Some. Sono Fujii: I don' ; t remember going to the paper a lot. I mean, I remember working there a couple of summers. I can' ; t, was I in like high school? Midori Fujii: So part of the thing was, the paper moved from the, near our house to the north side, so our dad commuted from Hyde Park to where it was like right by Wrigley Field. Sono Fujii: 3744 North Clark. Midori Fujii: North Clark. Right? And so that' ; s a pretty big hike just to like, if you' ; re just going for a field trip, you just don' ; t do that with your kids if you don' ; t have to. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: So, I think you did that in high school for work. Sono Fujii: Right, we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have a car, so my dad would have to take the, the Garfield bus to the, to Garfield Train Station and then catch the B train to Addison and then walk from Addison to the, I mean that' ; s why he was a Cubs fan. Midori Fujii: So it was like a, it' ; s a long commute. Right? So, and he just did that and it was like, mmm, nobody thought anything of it. It' ; s just, go to work, come home. It was like that was it. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you worked there in the summers, what kind of work did you do? Sono Fujii: Basically, I addressed the papers. So I would go, the paper came out what, every two weeks? Midori Fujii: Mmm not originally it was... Sono Fujii: Well, by that time. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t know. Sono Fujii: Anyway, I would to have put the, they had these, it was a address, it was a labeling address machine and you would just put the papers through it and the address would come out. But it wasn' ; t you know... Midori Fujii: I think the thing that I remember the most about it is our dad looking for a typesetter. And had like, and he would talk about this one guy that was just so fast and what it was like to be able to find somebody. ' ; Cause if you look at what it, it' ; s like, like it' ; s, I mean you ca-- unimaginable to think about setting individual characters and type, like just mind numbing, but that' ; s what they did! And um, Sono Fujii: They had um... Midori Fujii: We didn' ; t have Xerox machines, so if my dad wanted to copy something, he typed it or transcribed it by hand. And it' ; s like, Sono Fujii: And it was all in Japanese. Midori Fujii: Well no. And, but some, like some of the books I, I' ; ve went, I' ; ve gone through some of his stuff and a chapter from a book that he thought was worth keeping, he had typed it out and I' ; m like, God. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: But he wanted to keep it so he did. Sono Fujii: Right, and he had special printed paper. So the, the newspaper, I mean you know Japanese is written from right to left, and the columns were horizontal columns, and there was a pre-printed like grid kind of paper where he would write his articles. And each little square, he would put a, a character like a kanji or a hiragana, or katakana in there. And, then he would hand that to the typesetter, and the typesetter, had a, he would just pull the different size and put it all by hand. I mean it' ; s just amazing. So, I mean, I don' ; t know if you want, we' ; ve got photos of it. Emma Saito Lincoln: Yes. I think now would be a great time to share those photos. Sono Fujii: So this is a picture of the, of our dad at the... Midori Fujii: So these, this is all type here. These like different individual pieces of type. Sono Fujii: There were different, and there are different size fonts and, for the same character. Here' ; s another picture of him. That' ; s-- Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember him ever talking about purchasing the type? Sono Fujii: There' ; s actually something about that in one of his letters because he had to... Midori Fujii: He had to rent the type or something. Right? Sono Fujii: There was some controversy as to where he was going to get it from. I don' ; t know. I' ; ll look for that, and if you want I' ; ll send it to you. Emma Saito Lincoln: I' ; m just curious if had to, if that was something they had to order all the way from Japan? Midori Fujii: Curate it was like the short answer is like it wasn' ; t easy, and, and, and purchasing the actual printing machine and moving that was like, a big deal. Sono Fujii: There was, I mean I remember that, when growing up, every now and then some guy would drop off these small but really heavy packages. I mean he was a Caucasian guy and this thing would like weigh a ton. I' ; d say, " ; What is in that?" ; you know, " ; Oh, it' ; s type." ; I mean, how do you get, in the United States, kanji? I have no idea. Emma Saito Lincoln: And how do you find a person with the skill to set that type? Midori Fujii: That is the question. Yeah. I think that these people were from Japan. Sono Fujii: I mean there was this b- and I sho- and I don' ; t have it, but I, I can send you it again. I' ; ve got a picture of this big, huge printing press that was in the back, and it was very noisy. Midori Fujii: Yeah, it looks like something you' ; d see at the Museum of Science and Industry. I mean it' ; s like this giant black machine, like industrial strength. I' ; m like, whoa. Emma Saito Lincoln: What did you think of your father' ; s work when you were young? Sono Fujii: It was what he did. Midori Fujii: Well, I think I would say a couple of things. It' ; s what he did but it was really what he did. Meaning, he' ; d go to work, but then he' ; d come home and he' ; d write and he' ; d read. So he didn' ; t, it wasn' ; t just like he came home and then that was it. I mean he played with us, he was around. I mean it wasn' ; t like he was like an absent dad. And he was like very different from a lot of, well it wasn' ; t issei either, right? But he really did like do the dishes, and he helped, he was, he didn' ; t help around the house, he was like part of taking care of us and taking care of laundry and doing a lot of different things. So, very un-, very sort of non-traditional in terms of Japanese of his generation. Right? Sono Fujii: I mean he didn' ; t, he didn' ; t drive a car. He had no interest in driving a car. He was deaf in one ear, so that would' ; ve been an issue. Midori Fujii: But he, but he would-- Sono Fujii: He was somewhat handy around the house. Midori Fujii: I mean, he would repair things and he could cook, and yeah. But, I think he was really working a lot of the time on the weekends. He was reading, he was writing. I mean really, I think of my dad as a scholar. Don' ; t you? Like as an ac- Like if he were like in another time, he' ; d be an academic. I think that, that he was really always studying and reading and trying to stay up to date. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Enough so that, as Sono said, he did hand write his articles. There were times when he had to wrap his wrist because I think he was getting tendonitis and that kind of thing when he was writing a lot. Sono Fujii: And he also, he also, I remember him going out at night. I remember him going out tonight-- at night and doing what, I mean, I didn' ; t know at the time. He would say, " ; I have to go talk to a family." ; And, and I' ; m thinking that it was like family counseling, that there were people who were having problems in their family, and they turned to my dad, and he would go and talk to them. And like, he was doing this even when like I was in college. I mean it wasn' ; t an every day thing, but I just remember him having to go out. And I, I remember when my parents separated that that was kept, I mean he originally was going to, wanted to be very open about it, but he told me that someone said to him, " ; If your marriage can' ; t succeed, what hope is there for the rest of us?" ; And it was just like, (sigh) so I mean, we never publicized it, but I always had the sense that it was something that we didn' ; t talk openly about. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I di-, I was not aware of it in that way because I think that, the thing that was notable for me is that our parents got along much better once they weren' ; t trying to, sort of, I mean, by then we' ; re, they' ; re... We' ; re also grown, but they were very supportive of each other. I think certainly early in terms of the Resettlers and that kind of thing. And, our mom was ready, if our dad had been deported to go to Japan with him to get settled and then to send for us. It didn' ; t, I think we only learned that indirectly, I think I learned that from my aunt. And then as, when they were both older, they were very supportive of each other, and so I think that always had a sense that family is family. And that was, I think that' ; s a really pretty strong value. Regardless of like their, whatever individual differences they had. So, we had family Christmases, Thanksgivings, that kind of thing after our parents separated. Um... Sono Fujii: There was a, there was a Midori Fujii: It was I think-- Sono Fujii: There was like maybe two years when it was... But I think our mother had a fairly catastrophic... Midori Fujii: She had a car accident and broke her neck actually. Sono Fujii: Car accident, and she broke her neck. I mean this was in 1971 and they' ; d been separated for two years. And my dad and Dori were there like within hours after they found out. My dad was just... devastated by it. I think that really brought them back, brought them together in a way that you know they realized how much they cared for each other in spite of their differences. But, you know, after that we were you know, doing things together and having Christmases together and that kind of stuff again. Emma Saito Lincoln: You mentioned earlier that, that your mother worked? Partly to help ease the financial strain. What kind of work did she do? Midori Fujii: She was a social worker and then she was a therapist. Sono Fujii: She worked at the University of Chicago Libraries for a while too. Midori Fujii: Mhmm. She worked for Public Aid for a while. I think that system just enraged her though, sort of the bias and the ' ; no man in the house rule' ; back then. She was disgusted by it, but... And then, and then she went back to school to get a master' ; s degree. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then, and I, I know we, we touched a little bit on redress earlier, but when your mother testified at the CWRIC hearing in Chicago, did you attend? Were you there? Sono Fujii: Mm-mm. Midori Fujii: Mm-mm. I don' ; t even, I just vaguely remember her saying, I' ; m going to go do this. It was like, I' ; m going out to lunch. You know, it was... She' ; d been working on it so hard and, and after a while you just kind of lost track of it. I mean there were... Once in a while she would say, " ; Would you read this? or do that, or..." ; I think I was a little bit, probably more aware of it than you were at that time. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know how she felt about the five minute time limit? Sono Fujii: No. Midori Fujii: No. Sono Fujii: I didn' ; t know there was such a thing. Midori Fujii: Oh yeah, that. Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you watched the recording? Midori Fujii: Mm yeah, Catherine got it for us. I had read her testimony, but it' ; s different to see it. Sono Fujii: Yeah. I know, I know my husband has shared it with some of his colleagues and they use it in their classes. At, you know, someone used it when he was teaching up at Lake Forest College. I don' ; t know anymore, but it' ; s out there. Emma Saito Lincoln: How did it feel for you watching? Midori Fujii: To watch it? Oh, that' ; s an interesting, well my, she was much more soft spoken than I remember. I would' ; ve thought, she came after, I forget who it was first, she was ver- a very fiery speaker. But my mom, that was like, it didn' ; t seem not like her, but was much more measured. But she seemed so, relatively in my memory when talking about that, sort of silent but deadly, let' ; s put it that way. Quiet but deadly. My mom could have that ability to do that, so. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember how she felt eventually when the checks were issued and the apology letters were sent out? Or your grandmother, how she felt? Sono Fujii: More about my grandmother. So, my grandmother was one of the named plaintiffs, and there actually was a ceremony in San Jose where the checks were given to some of the older, to the Issei, and my grandmother gave a speech. And the only reason we know so much about it is the assistant attorney general for the Civil Rights Division was John Dunne at the time. And Mr. Dunne had been a partner at the law firm where I worked. And he was in the New York office and I was in the Chicago office. And one of the partners in Chicago knew that he was going to be doing this. And he reached out to Mr. Dunne and told him that my grandmother was going to be there and that you know, I' ; d been working for the law firm for like 20 years. So they had a correspondence and they had an exchange at the, at the ceremony, and that, it was covered in the papers as well. And my grandmother said that the apology was what meant more. She said if they hadn' ; t, if there hadn' ; t been the apology, accepting the money only would' ; ve left her with a funny feeling. She wouldn' ; t have felt right. And I think that' ; s true. I think that the, the apology was what was the most important to them, to the Issei, and to the Japanese community. Because I mean, $20,000 wasn' ; t going to compensate for what happened. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t know. I mean, that' ; s a good question. I don' ; t know that my mom felt, our mom felt that much satisfaction. I think she was like, yeah, that' ; s the least that should have been done. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: It was the, the bare minimum I don' ; t think she thought... You know ' ; cause she was, she really believed in reparations and it, you know it' ; s kind of a negligible amount, and she' ; s pretty clear about that in her testimony so... Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we need to start wrapping up unfortunately, ' ; cause I think we could keep talking for quite some time. I think in closing, I' ; d love to know what each of you would like future generations to know about your family' ; s experiences. What would you like them to take away from all of this? Midori Fujii: Well, it' ; s not over. You look at what we' ; re dealing with in this country. It' ; s like you know, all we need to do is look at immigration history. And it' ; s a history of racism and privilege and people being unsure about, clear eyed about what values really matter. So yeah, I mean, the, our current moment couldn' ; t be more clear. I think there' ; s no, there' ; s, it' ; s not a, hopefully not a surprise that the Japanese and the Asi-, the AAIP community and Black Lives Matter, and there' ; s some allyship finally in those communities that I don' ; t think was there previously. So, I guess that' ; s what I have to say. It' ; s like don' ; t get me started. (laughs) Sono Fujii: Yeah, I mean, I think I want our children to know about it and I want our children to understand its importance. We have been to Heart Mountain twice. All of our child- all of my children have been there. Your-- Midori Fujii: One of my two children has been there. Sono Fujii: I want them, I think they understand the importance of it. I think our s- my son moreso. I don' ; t want it to be forgotten. I don' ; t want it to be considered irrelevant. I don' ; t want... To, to move on. Midori Fujii: You know it' ; s understanding origin, or it' ; s like understanding your history, whether it' ; s how this country was founded and, and who was disenfranchised along the way and how communities form and sustain themselves. I mean the J-, you know the Japanese commu- and some of the model minority issues that have sort of divided communities, that' ; s all part of this, I think in terms of... and I think understanding all of that and understanding the pieces of a story, whether it' ; s your own family history, whether it' ; s the nation' ; s history or community' ; s history, like, it you-- in terms of understanding the context of the decisions that we' ; re making today. It isn' ; t just a flash on the news. Right? It' ; s not like this moment in time. There' ; s a whole underpinning to that, and we just need to have a better informed you know voter, I don' ; t know, populace, whatever, I don' ; t know you know, in terms of just understanding. Democracy, is not... You have to work at it. It is not just something that happens at war. People knew what was happening on the West Coast and there were some people that were opposed, but it just went along. Right? And that' ; s, you know, we take so many things for granted that aren' ; t automatic. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we' ; ll end on that note, what, what democracy takes. Thank you both so much for participating. Sono Fujii: Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujiiSono_FujiiMidori20210609.xml FujiiSono_FujiiMidori20210609.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project ","Chicago Shimpo^^Santa Anita^^Heart Mountain^^Doshisha University^^San Jose, CA^^Redress^^Fujii, Ryoichi^^Hyde Park^^Postwar housing",0900,,,"Fujii, Dori",,,,"Fujii, Sono^^Fujii, Midori",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"ISHRAB,Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/4fade97eeade8024136a2b1c003770a7.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
455,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/455,"Hikawa, Barbara and Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (6/23/2021)",,"Barbara (Sunnie) Hikawa is a sansei born in Chicago in 1949, whose family has a rich history and strong roots in the local Japanese American community. In this interview, she is joined by her daughter Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa, a yonsei hapa who was also raised in the Chicago Japanese American community, particularly the Japanese American church community. During World War II, Sunnie and Chelsea’s family members were interned at Tule Lake. After the war, Sunnie’s parents moved to different areas of the Midwest but eventually settled in Chicago, where Sunnie’s father went to law school, and where they raised their family. Sunnie’s paternal grandmother ran a boarding house on LaSalle Street, providing temporary housing for many nisei resettlers. Both Sunnie and Chelsea are involved in their church as the current and past choir directors, and talk about how their experiences with church informed their experience with the JA community. They share their experiences with racism, thoughts about their upbringing, and the differences between generations and how Japanese culture is shared and maintained across them.",,,,2021-06-23,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HikawaBarbara20210623.xml," 5.4 6/23/2021 Hikawa, Barbara and Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (6/23/2021) 1:08:37 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Yonsei Intergenerational Mixed-race Tule Lake Drum and Bugle Corps Christ Congregational Church Hikawa, Barbara (Sunnie) Dolinar-Hikawa, Chelsea Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|24(16)|44(3)|62(2)|79(8)|95(2)|112(1)|126(12)|141(5)|163(1)|178(9)|195(6)|208(4)|230(8)|248(4)|263(12)|283(4)|297(3)|311(1)|332(10)|345(1)|357(4)|377(6)|405(2)|424(3)|436(10)|452(13)|471(6)|495(4)|509(5)|534(2)|563(7)|588(7)|602(16)|617(4)|637(1)|655(4)|681(11)|691(2)|705(17)|725(3)|738(11)|763(2)|773(13)|802(2)|818(4)|839(14)|866(2)|883(12)|903(3)|924(8)|947(10)|959(1)|976(5)|985(14)|998(11)|1010(8)|1023(9)|1035(5)|1048(9)|1059(1)|1072(4)|1082(7)|1094(4)|1105(10)|1118(11)|1133(12)|1151(8)|1166(11) 0 https://vimeo.com/583597304/2e900ffb4f Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/583597304?h=2e900ffb4f" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Barbara (Sunnie) Hikawa is a sansei born in Chicago in 1949, whose family has a rich history and strong roots in the local Japanese American community. In this interview, she is joined by her daughter Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa, a yonsei hapa who was also raised in the Chicago Japanese American community, particularly the Japanese American church community. During World War II, Sunnie and Chelsea Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is June 23rd, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln and the interviewee is Barbara Hikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese-Americans in the Chicago area. So to get us started, could you please state your full name for me? Barbara Hikawa (BH): Barbara Hikawa. EL: And what name do you go by? BH: I- But I go by Sunnie. EL: And what year were you born in? BH: I was born in 1949. EL: And where? BH: In Chicago, at Frank Cuneo Memorial Hospital, which no longer exists. EL: And is Chicago also where you grew up? BH: I grew up here, and I went away-- only away when I went to college and graduate school. EL: And where were your parents born and raised? BH: My mom was born in Las Animas, Colorado because my grandfather had a, a ranch there. And my grandfather-- my father was born in Walnut Creek, California which is near Sacramento. EL: And what about your grandparents? BH: So I believe all of my grandparents were from Yamanashi-ken. That' ; s the Mount Fuji, I think -ken and I' ; m pretty sure my grand- my maternal grandparents are from there. And my maternal, my paternal grandmother, I don' ; t know about my paternal grandfather because he died when I was, before I was born. EL: Do you happen to know approximately when your grandparents on either side first came to the U.S.? BH: Well, I think that my maternal grandfather was actually a very early arrival. I feel like there may be a family story that he came when the San Francisco earthquake happened that he was there, which would be like 1903? So I think that was pretty early, I don' ; t think many others came ' ; til the teens but I could be wrong about that. So I think he came, and then later I think my grandmother must have been a picture bride or something and came. And then my paternal grandparents I don' ; t know when they came. EL: Do you have any idea what motivated them to immigrate? BH: I don' ; t. I do k-, well let' ; s see, the pater- the maternal grandfather who came early, was I believe he was one of those sons he was like the second of a bunch of sons so he was given to another family to have their name to carry on the name. So, I don' ; t know. EL: And you said your, your maternal grandparents had a ranch? BH: Maternal grandparents had a ranch in Colorado. EL: Okay, and on your paternal side do you know what their, what your grandfather' ; s occupation was in the U.S.? BH: I don' ; t know about them, ' ; cause let' ; s see he died, he died e-early I guess. They, my father had four brothers. And then, no, he had a brother, and then sh- my grandmother remarried and there were three more sons, and then that fa- stepfather died bef- when I was really little, that I don' ; t remember so-- EL: I see. BH: So she was always just kind of a strong woman on her own. EL: Do you know on either side whether their pre-war homes were within communities of other Japanese-Americans or Japanese people? BH: Their pre-war homes? Oh, I, I do know that my mom has many friends from that era who are Japanese-American. So I assume that yes, that came, that came to different places in the country and I' ; ve heard about them and know them. I think they-- her mom took in like some kids from another family even, and they lived in Florida. She had a friend in New Jersey, and another friend from Chicago I think he' ; s-- he died a few years ago. EL: And those are all people that your mother knew in Colorado? BH: In Colorado. So there' ; s I think a small Colorado group of, of Nisei, Issei and Nisei and then my dad' ; s-- I don' ; t, Walnut Creek sounds like it might have had a, a Japanese-- but I, Japanese American population but I don' ; t know. EL: Did your parents ever talk about their childhood experiences with you? BH: Not much you know, the Nisei didn' ; t talk that much about themselves. My mom had a younger brother who died when he was like two, like ate some poison berries. And I think that was always a big blow that the son died, and that, so my paternal grandfather I think was very, connected-- proud of, you know, my father. That, she married this guy. So he became like the son they never had. Whereas, he came from five sons, but he was the oldest. And, I' ; m sorry, what was your question? If they talked about-- EL: Just about their childhood, what, what kinds of experiences they had? BH: Well I know my mom learned to drive a tractor at 11, that' ; s about all I know. My dad, I think told me that he used to eat tortillas with the Mexican farm hands in the fields with hot dogs. (laughs) EL: So let' ; s shift gears a little bit and talk about wartime, and let' ; s start with just when and where your family was incarcerated? BH: They were all, all of them were in Tule Lake. So I think my maternal, my paternal grandmother had a grocery store in Walnut Creek, or Sacramento? I don' ; t know. And I think at that time my pat- my maternal grandparents had sold the ranch and had moved to California. So they- so both sides were all sent to Tule Lake, where my maternal grandfather was like the block captain or something? These people in charge of things sort of. And my mom worked on the Tule Lake newsletter. She was the secretary, you know, illustrator, she made the covers. She was, my mom was an artist. And um-- Yeah, so they all-- My dad always tells the story how, he was graduating from high school and his- he wanted to buy a car. And he had his eye on this car, he had saved up the money, he was going to get the car-- and then he got interned. So. EL: So your father was just at the tail end of high school, how old was your mother? BH: She was a, she was exactly- they had the same birthday, she was exactly a year younger. So, I guess he had just graduated and she was going to graduate. EL: Was she able to finish her high school education in camp? BH: You know that' ; s a good question, I don' ; t know. I mean I know she went to community college, before-- You know? That doesn' ; t-- I don' ; t know, I, I guess not. I don' ; t know, I mean I know she went to college later so-- I guess so? EL: And what can you tell me about their experiences or your grandparent' ; s experiences at Tule Lake? Did they ever talk to you about that time? BH: No. They don' ; t talk about it. My mother, who is strangely-- she has-- Well, they may not be so strange, it may be pretty typical, I' ; m not sure, for Nisei. Will say, " ; Oh, it wasn' ; t so bad. It was not that bad, we had fun." ; You know she was there, there were a lot of young-- other people her age, teenagers I guess. Seventeen, eighteen-year-olds and they had fun or whatever. Though, we did find a sketchbook of hers from that period, and there' ; s pictures of the, the sheds and the camp and everything. EL: Do you have any idea maybe what kinds of things they brought with them, or what they might have left behind? BH: No. EL: No? BH: They, they have, obviously had to leave everything behind. The grocery store, sell a grocery store in three days and all the inventory? Yeah. EL: Do you know what their living quarters were like? BH: I don' ; t. I mean they were in a stable, right? But I think they were, like maybe just my grandparents and my mom and-- I-- but I don' ; t know for sure. EL: And then at some point your father was able to leave camp? BH: Right. He, the one way to get out was to go dig-- is it sugar beets? Something like that, up in Idaho or someplace like that? And so he signed up for that to get out of the camp. And he said that was just horrible, horrible, brack-baking, brack-bak-, back-breaking terrible work. And so he did not want to do that anymore so when the opportunity came to leave-- to enlist, he was ready to do that. And I guess they, there were some problems at the camp, I think Tule Lake had a bunch of, a lot of resistance people, so they, in the middle of the night, they got in a truck and left. So, like nobody knew that they were leaving, it was like they were whisked away. EL: Do you know what his motivations were for serving? Was it mostly as a way out of camp, or was it patriotism? BH: (laughs) Well that' ; s a good question. I, you know, the way he tells it, yeah he wanted to get out of camp. I' ; m sure there' ; s a patriotic motive in there. EL: And do you know how his parents felt about it when he made that decision? BH: I' ; m sure they were fine with it. Trying to think, the f- of the four brothers, probably at least three of them were with him. I think one might have gone, I think one maybe went back to Japan. Like they were given that choice, go to the camp or go to Japan, and I think the second brother may have done that. The other three went with my dad I think. And then they all, I think joined the Army too. EL: So what unit did he serve in? BH: So he was in the military intelligence. And I hope I' ; m not jumping your questions, but he' ; s got some, he had a great story about it which I only found out about when my second husband passed away and his family had come for the funeral and my dad just started talking. I had never heard him tell these stories. And so he told this story about the military intelligence service that he was in, which I' ; ve later read, I think-- And I knew he was in Minnesota, so I' ; m assuming that' ; s why he was in Minnesota was where, that' ; s where they were training them. Well there were some people like him who spoke English perfectly, he was born and raised here, and he could understand s- you know Japanese, but he could speak English perfectly. But he wasn' ; t very good at writing or reading. And then there were other people who were really good at writing Japanese, but they weren' ; t so good at speaking English. And then there are other people who could read it really well, but then they couldn' ; t write it-- Anyway there were three different types of skills, and what they discovered was, that in order to make one complete translator they had to have three people. To like really do like, hear what the thing was-- the person was saying in Japanese or read the, the document in Japanese and then sort of be able to tell it to my dad who then could translate in English and tell people what they were saying. But the Army he said, this is how efficient the Army is. So they made these groups of three. They all had their assignments and they' ; re in groups of three. And then when they got deployed they were all separated and sent to different troops. So all that work and-- I don' ; t know, he said, " ; That' ; s the army for you." ; (laughs) EL: Were his brothers also serving in the MIS? BH: Uh no, they weren' ; t in MIS I don' ; t think. But I think they were in some other combat or something. EL: And do you know where he was sent during the war? BH: He was in the South Pacific. So I mean he does talk about-- he, I do know he was in the South Pacific with MacArthur. EL: And while he was serving, his brothers were also serving, one brother was in Japan, his parents were still in camp, correct? BH: Yes. EL: Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about, connected to his military service, can you tell me about after the war, his involvement in the Nisei Post? BH: Oh, well, alright so-- I' ; ll kind of be broad here. My grandfather on my mother' ; s side, remember I said he was like the block captain but had also come over as-- he' ; d also been given a name that wasn' ; t his name, but I believe th- a cousin of his, like a blood cousin, had come to Chicago and was part of the Resettlers Committee. So that' ; s why they came here to Chicago. And then my dad was up in Minnesota and I think he had known my mom, but was dating somebody else at the time. But then he started coming down and seeing my mom, that' ; s when they got together. And wait, and your question is-- how-- EL: Nisei Post. BH: --Nisei Post. Oh, well then-- EL: (laughs) But this is also very interesting! BH: --Yeah, but so then, after the war, they settled in Chicago. And well my guess is anybody who was a veteran would join the, the American Legion Nisei Post. ' ; Cause there were plenty of you know four, four four two, 442nd and MIS people here so, there was a, a solid Japanese American community, not huge but you know pretty well connected. And I do know, I actually met somebody from the, from, from New York or something, a, a Nisei woman who had never been interned because she was on the East Coast. So they didn' ; t get interned, or Hawaii. EL: So let' ; s, let' ; s rewind a little bit then, ' ; cause you were trying to explain about your parents and how part of your family came to Chicago, and then your father was coming down to Chicago, so-- Your parents had met in camp? BH: Yeah, I think they knew each other. Right, so-- I mean, you know they, they knew of each other maybe or something. And then, I don' ; t know how that switched that my dad suddenly started visiting to see my mom. And then yeah, his family came out to Chicago too. EL: And what about your, your dad' ; s parents, where did they go after camp? BH: Well that-- I don' ; t know when, I don' ; t exactly how-- But I-- this was what I was, what I had written to you. My pat- my father' ; s mother had a boarding house in Chicago that was like a way station for a lot of Nisei or even-- Is it Nikkei? People from Japan? Coming through Chicago. So, a lot of people would come and stay there and live there for a few years before getting married or doing something else. So that, she was sort of known I think, with that. EL: Did that have a name, did the building have a name? BH: No. It was-- EL: Do you know where, where it was located? BH: Yeah I do know where it was. It was-- Let' ; s see what was it? It was something like 1122 or 1022 North LaSalle. EL: And what was her name? BH: Her name was Wakao Hikawa. But my father' ; s father, blood father was named Sato. But he took my, his stepfather' ; s name of Hikawa. EL: So at what point did your parents actually marry? BH: That' ; s a good question, I don' ; t know? Let' ; s see, I was born in 1949 and I think they were married for probably a couple years before that? So 47, 46, 45? I don' ; t know. EL: And at that point in time, were they both working? BH: Let' ; s see-- Oh my dad, on the GI Bill, he got into Harvard Law School and Northwestern Law School and he wanted, my mom wanted him to go to Harvard, but he wanted to stay in Chicago so I think he went to Northwestern. So he was in law school, I think probably at the very beginning and then he became a lawyer. And so she was-- I think, she was helping out at-- Oh, the name is going to escape me but it was another pretty prominent Chicago Japanese American family. Is it Yamamoto maybe? The Yamamotos, they had a, he had a trading import company and so she worked there with him. --Or, Dick Yamada? Well anyway-- (laughs) EL: And then you' ; re born in 1949, do you have siblings? I do, I have two younger sisters. My second sister lives in-- now, Greenwich, Connecticut and Palm Beach, Florida and she was a lawyer at-- um, vice president at ABC television. And my youngest sister is the associate principal violist of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Symphony, and she' ; s been there for like 40 years so she' ; s a real Los Angeleno. EL: And where did you all grow up? Which neighborhood? BH: We all grew up in Uptown, which was a changing neighborhood at the time. It was, it had been really Jewish, and then it was starting to just change over to Appalachian white people were moving in. And I remember a Chinese laundry family moved in, and I used to play with that son. There was a lot of playing in the neighborhood with a lot of different kids. And so it was changing over. EL: And what schools did you go to? BH: All, we all went to Francis Parker School which is a private school not in our neighborhood. We should have gone to Goudy Public School but we didn' ; t. And, and then Senn High School but we went to Francis Parker. EL: And was Francis Parker all the way through from K through 12? BH: (nods) I started at 5 years old, went through high school and my sister started at 4 years old and went through high school. EL: Were there many other Japanese-American families in your orbit at that time, or at your school? BH: Not at my school, no. There was a Korean kid in my class, which is, I think how we got to Parker because his father was a dentist and he' ; d been in dental school at Northwestern when my dad was in law school and they' ; d gotten to be buddies. And that' ; s how my dad found out about Francis Parker. But other than that, no not at Parker. But in the neighborhood, every summer I went to the Park District Day Camp and then I did meet more neighborhood kids and there was a, there were a couple of Japanese American Sanseis like me, and so-- EL: Did your family participate in any Japanese American organizations? BH: Oh yes, (laughs) of course they did. So, I s- mentioned that we, my grandparents went to the Presbyterian Church on Sheffield. But not, then my family when I was like five, we switched to Christ Congregational Church on Buckingham. And there was a huge Sunday school, I mean there must have been two hundred kids and, and they also had like a volleyball league for teenagers. So my cousins, my sort of cousins from the original family of my grandfather' ; s cousin, like my mom' ; s second or third cousin. They were older than us and they played in like that volleyball or softball league. And my dad was in the American Legion Post 1183, right? God, my memory is going. And they started a Drum and Bugle Corps so I participated in the Drum and Bugle Corps. And through that, you really got to know there were like six Japanese churches. So there was like the Presbyterian Church, there was our church Tri-C, there was MBT which is Midwest Buddhist Chur- Temple and now it' ; s called BTC, Buddhist Temple of Chicago but back then we just called it-- something else I can' ; t remember. And CFC, Christian Fellowship Church, maybe a couple others, JCJC Japanese Church of Jesus Christ, and one that was on Lakeside I think. Um-- but so you, as teenagers you kind of, if you had a dance, if one group had a, if the Legion Posts had a dance, all the other people from all the other churches your age might show up, you know the Eagle Scouts and-- And then Drum Corps was started out mostly Japanese American but then changed. And then I remember my parents joined a group or started a group with a bunch of other Japanese Americans called The Co-Op Investors, cooperative investors. And so that was a big part our li- of our lives. A lot of those people I know were good friends of my parents and they always had a big Christmas party that we looked forward to every year and I think they socialized and had dances and stuff. EL: Can you explain to me what that group did? BH: Oh yeah, it was an investment group, they invested money. EL: So they pooled their funds and-- BH: They pooled their funds I guess and did investments, I don' ; t know. EL: Were they investing in, in other community efforts? Or community, or-- BH: I was a kid, I didn' ; t know what they did. It was just, " ; Co-Op Investors" ; and I think they had a credit union maybe, I was able to get, start a little savings account or something with them and, and a bunch of those people' ; s kids I knew who also went to Drum and Bugle Corps, stuff like that so-- EL: And about Drum and Bugle Corps, what kinds of activities did you do as part of that? BH: Well, mostly t-the drum and bugle corps. We had you know, practices like twice a week or whatever and then marching practice and then we' ; d go to competitions and parades and-- And so you were with those people a lot (laughs). But they started getting bigger and, and lettin-- like more people start to join from all over the city and far away. EL: I think we' ; ll pause there. -- EL: And we have an additional interviewee has joined us, so could you please introduce yourself? Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (CDH): Hi, my name is Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa and I am Sunnie Hikawa' ; s daughter. EL: And in what year were you born? CDH: 1974. EL: Okay, and you were born here in Chicago? CDH: Um, I was actually born on the West Coast in Oregon but we moved here, back here when I was very young maybe 2 or so? Or a baby, yeah I think? BH: Yeah. EL: And then you' ; ve-- CDH: And then I' ; ve lived here ever since, yes. EL: Okay, so let' ; s switch back to what we were talking about. We had just finished discussing the Drum and Bugle Corps and the many organizations that your family was part of. In particular, church. And could you explain to me your involvement in the choir at church? BH: Well so, let' ; s see. So I, I would say I grew up in the church. Um-- You know I think the Nisei population here was close-knit in that most of them knew everybody and they all did things with-- amongst themselves. Whereas my generation I would say-- We spread out a little bit more. Yes we still had Sansei friends, but we also had other friends too. Whereas I would say most of my parents' ; friends, most, were, if they weren' ; t work colleagues, were Japanese American-- were also Nisei. So the church, I' ; d gone there as a child, and then I went away to college. I got married, I had kids, and I decided I think I had, I think at, at some point I decided to go sing in the choir. So, ' ; cause my family was very musical, we had all been musi- musical, studied music. So I decided to sing in the choir and then they lost the choir director and they asked me if I would be the choir director. So without having experience I gained it by doing it on the job. And then oh about five la- years later I actually did get my job at Francis Parker as music teacher accompanist/companist, and then got a master' ; s degree in music. So then I was the choir director for a long time! (laughs) For 30, I don' ; t know 35 years, maybe more? 40? EL: And, what did you find most rewarding about that? BH: You know that the church is a wonderful group of people. A very caring and supportive group of people, and so it was just, it was-- and there were also quite, some very good singers and good musicians in the choir. So it was pretty fun to work with them and create music. EL: And I understand this choir connection is, is a thread that carries through to the next generation so could you explain a little bit about that? BH: Well I, I was also working full-time, and I started to get burned out from the two jobs. And so I decided to retire from the choir job. And so they said okay, and they put up a listing, and my daughter Chelsea who is also, has a music degree, decided to apply for the job, and she got it! CDH: Yes, about 10 years ago. So I applied, and initially of course I thought, " ; Oh well I' ; m Sunnie' ; s daughter, I grew up in the church, of course I' ; m gonna just be given this job!" ; But they had an entire application process so I had to t- apply and I had interviews and everything and then I got the job as choir director, as music director. And so I' ; ve been doing it for about the last 10 years I' ; d say, and it' ; s been wonderful. EL: How does it make you feel as a mother to know that you' ; ve passed on this-- BH: (Laughs) EL: --both the talent and the position to your daughter? BH: Oh, it' ; s, it' ; s great! It' ; s great because I can, we can talk about it, and we- I understand the, the problems or the issues that, that she might encounter. And, you know, and so I still sing in the choir for her. CDH: She still helps me a lot. She' ; s still quite present, and actually this past year because of the pandemic we sort of jointly worked together. I have two young sons who were hybrid learning and so I had kind of a difficult year and my mom h-- now that she' ; s retired, she was actually had time to help me. So we were able to go completely virtual with the choir and she learned an entirely new set of skills to master it and so we did that jointly. That was a really fun project that we, we mastered, and recorded. BH: To make virtual choir videos. CDH: Yeah, virtual-- more than 20 songs that we worked on over the year with, with our choir. BH: (smiles) They' ; re online, and anybody can hear it. CDH: They' ; re on YouTube, you can watch them. (laughs) EL: And, and one of those was part of the Memorial Day program correct? BH: Right, because for the last, I don' ; t know, 30 years a lot of the other choirs of the other Japanese churches kind of faded away, but ours remained quite vibrant. And so they asked us to perf- to sing for the the Memorial Day services so every year we' ; re the church that they ask to do that. And, this year, as in the past they, well they decided on a virtual service, and I guess-- CDH: Right, Karen Kanemoto had written to me saying, " ; Do y- is there anything that you could submit?" ; and I was like, " ; Oh, well coincidentally, actually we' ; ve been working on videos for our choir for the last six months so I definitely have a good selection I could send you." ; EL: How has the past year changed how you view choir leadership? I mean aside from having to take on a new skill set and adapt to things being virtual, has it, has it altered how you think about leading a choir? CDH: Yes, I think so. But I, I have to think about that. I think it became even more apparent to me that it' ; s actually a really fundamental part of community and a worship service that, I think everyone understands that music is so powerful but when you don' ; t have access to it, it' ; s absolutely just so important and people really feel the lack of it. So when the pandemic first happened, and I was just singing solos every week and it wasn' ; t quite the same thing and then my mom had the idea, we should try and actually do this virtual thing and I was worried, a lot of our choir members are older and it' ; s a really hard new thing to learn with computers I was like, " ; Oh, I' ; m not sure it' ; s gonna be really complicated." ; But my mom was like, " ; No, I really think we can do it, we' ; ll, we' ; ll figure it out step by step and do it together." ; And we did. And I think initially people were hesitant, but then-- BH: Oh, they were hesitant. (laughs) CDH: They were hesitant (laughs) to do this. But then when we did, and they saw that we were still recreating this, this powerful experience of singing together, even though we weren' ; t actually, technically in the same place, it was just-- it was-- BH: The response was-- CDH: The response was huge, and people were so appreciative, and I just think more than ever people recognized that, that music, that singing together in harmony is such a fundamental part of being a human. Like it' ; s really taken on even more import don' ; t you think? BH: Yeah. And I think that, I think our church was proud because they pivoted so quickly to online services, but I was noticing they just felt kind of lacking something. So I' ; m glad we did that. CDH: Yeah, and actually the really beautiful thing, (to BH) did you talk about Makoto and, an-- BH: Oh! No I didn' ; t, oh! CDH: So of course, the one silver lining about doing virtual choir is that anyone can participate regardless of where they are in the world, and we have some wonderful members of the church who' ; ve moved back to Japan, and have never been able to sing with us again. But then they joined again, and they' ; ve been singing in our virtual choir this whole year. BH: Yup. CDH: So that' ; s been a really big li- silver lining. EL: Is your church still majority Japanese American? CDH: Yeah? BH: Yeah? CDH: Maybe half and half? Or maybe even more than half? BH: Maybe probably still majority, yeah. EL: Do you have any sense if that' ; s also the case for the other churches that were prominent in the Japanese American community when you were growing up? BH: I' ; m going to guess that we are more diverse than some of those that have survived. I mean I know that the Presbyterian Church that was on Sheffield, and then they' ; ve moved to Ravenswood area, right? Is that where Elaine' ; s sister goes? CDH: I can' ; t remember. BH: That-- it' ; s a more fundamental church. CDH: Yeah. BH: And I understand they' ; re doing very well. Like they have a, a they' ; re pretty, they have a pretty good population. CDH: Yeah. BH: But I think it' ; s mostly Japanese American, but I don' ; t know, so maybe I should stop. CDH: Yeah I think our church makes a very concerted effort to be very much about social justice and interaction with the community. And we happen to be located in West Ridge, which is a very diverse community, though obviously not that many Japanese Americans. And so that' ; s taken on more of a presence in the church. And we' ; re open and affirming as well so-- EL: So we talked a little bit, Sunnie, about your upbringing and your school experience, but Chelsea I' ; m wondering if we could talk a little bit about your Chicago upbringing as a Japanese American and whether, you know whether you had Japanese American classmates at school or whether you were engaged in a lot of social activities or organizations out- other than church that had a JA focus. CDH: Right so at school, at Francis Parker where I attended in the eighties and nineties, I think it became much less diverse than it had been when my mom was there previously. I think it' ; s gotten more diverse again, but it was a very homogeneous period back then, so my classmates and I would always joke that there was one and a half Japanese people in the class. There' ; s one other classmate who was Japanese and then me, being half Asian. And that might have been the only Asians in, in my whole grade actually. There was not a lot of Asians back there, then. However, I did grow up in the Japanese church in that I had to go every Sunday, and I was always at all of the cultural events. That was, I, I feel very large part of my life as a child. I can remember all the things we celebrated, you know Aki-Matsuri, and making ozoni, and all these things that, that were culturally important to me when I was a kid. And I did spend a lot of time with my maternal grandparents growing up, with my mom' ; s parents. And so I think both for me and my sister that informed a lot of how we feel about like eating Japanese American cuisine like we really, really used to doing things like that. And I did also study taiko drum at Midwest Buddhist Temple when I was in high school and I really enjoyed that. But in my school experience I would say no, there was very little exposure or kinship with other Asians. And actually, I can remember in eighth grade my mom felt that Parker was not a diverse community, and she really wanted me to switch and go to Whitney Young where at least there' ; d be more people of color. But I was very attached to my friends, and I didn' ; t want to move so I stayed there the whole time. But I feel like a-- both my sister and I studied Japanese, the language in college and we both studied abroad in Japan ' ; cause that was very interesting to us. And so I feel like much more in college I was able to access that part of my cultural heritage. EL: When you were young, did you have much awareness of the history of incarceration and what your family had been through during the war? CDH: I think when I was very young I did not. I' ; m, I' ; m, I' ; m thinking I became more aware of that maybe as a preteen? And also I would say like, for my grandfather he would sometimes speak about his experiences with um-- he was with Military Intelligence translating in the Pacific, my grandmother was incarcerated at Tule Lake and she would never talk about it. Right? BH: (shakes head) CDH: It was a very taboo subject for her. So even if you would ask her directly about it, it was just something she didn' ; t want to discuss, so I think as a child I was not aware of that but definitely as a preteen I, I became more cognizant of what had happened. EL: Was that because it was taught to you at school? Or did you hear, h-hear it from your mother or other community members? CDH: I' ; m trying to remember, I, I don' ; t know. I know, well actually, ' ; member? I think I was in high school there was a, an interesting exhibit at the Field Museum about Japanese American women in Chicago. Do you remember that? And we performed there. It was, it was back in the 90s I think there was actually an exhibit. BH: Oh maybe, yeah. CDH: So I know that was a part of it, and I, I' ; m not sure? Maybe at church, I' ; m not, I' ; m not sure. EL: And Sunnie did you, do you have a memory of learning about incarceration at a specific point in your life, or did you kind of always know about it? BH: No, I, I don' ; t know-- I can' ; t pinpoint a spot, but I do know, I told you that we-- I have this old, yellowed, Tribune magazine from, I' ; m going to say 1954? No, probably 1958 or 9. That, where they did an article about the incarceration, and they interviewed my family. --or they did an article about my family and I think it was because of the incarceration. So-- that' ; s probably it. CDH: I just remembered something. BH: Oh you did? CDH: So I don' ; t remember when reparations were given, but I was a teen or pre-teen and my grandparents did receive reparations. And I remember that. EL: Did you understand at that time what it was for? CDH: I think it, then it was explained to me. That Grandma and Grandpa are getting money from the government, why is this happening, what are they gonna do with it, and then I can remember that being like, " ; Oh yes, so the government is finally apologizing." ; And I remember it was sad for my grandparents because their parents were the ones who substantially lost property, but they were not alive anymore to receive the apology and the reparations. I can remember that quite well. EL: Do you remember your grandparents' ; emotional response? CDH: Not real-- I feel like they were like, " ; It' ; s about time!" ; (laughs) But, maybe they didn' ; t discuss that with me as much. BH: Yeah. EL: Were they at all involved in the redress movement, or, or were you Sunnie? BH: No, not at all, my guess is that it was incidental. It had happened, it was done, moving on. Oh, here' ; s this check, isn' ; t that nice? EL: And this question is, is really for both of you, when you were growing up or in adulthood, did you ever experience racism or bias due to your identity? BH: Well, I have one story I always tell. Which is that when I was about 10, I was going to the grocery store and this kid yelled at me from across the street, " ; Ching, chong, Chinaman!" ; something like that. And I remember the shock, and the with being, what, withdrawing. But then I pulled myself together and said, " ; I' ; m not Chinese, I' ; m Japanese!" ; But, like, I really showed him! (laughs) What a good repartee, retort. So I remember that very clearly. CDH: I have, well I have a couple stories. I do remember as a teenager walking down Diversey right by your house, with my grandparents, Courtney and I, and a bunch of drunk people were coming out of the bars and they surrounded Grandma and Grandpa and started yelling " ; Ching Chong" ; in their faces. And my sister and I got up in their faces and were like, " ; Leave our grandparents alone!" ; and they ran away, but I remember that very distinctly. They just surrounded them and started yelling, " ; ching-chong-ching-chong-ching" ; right in Grandma and Grandpa' ; s faces. So that was crazy. Me personally, because I' ; m biracial, people don' ; t always know what I am, often they think I' ; m Latina. I' ; ve actually experienced name calling because of that. But I did have a pretty crazy experience about 10 years ago, I was walking in the Little Saigon neighborhood with my husband and his friend, and this man came up and punched me as hard as they could in the chest a couple times and knocked the wind out of me. And at the time I thought, " ; What is happening, is it ' ; cause I' ; m a woman? Like I can' ; t be ' ; cause I' ; m Asian? Like what is happening?" ; And we called the police, and they picked him up and he told the police officer I was a, a, " ; Chink Gook Bitch" ; sorry. And I had to get out of his neighborhood. So that was very shocking to me, but that did happen about 10 years ago. EL: Wow, especially given what' ; s going on now-- CDH: Mhmm. EL: --that' ; s incredible to know that you experienced that, not during this current wave, but, but prior to it. CDH: No, I, I think that just shows that it' ; s always been there but it' ; s just much more public, public now that people are aware of that, but I' ; m sure incidences like that happe- have happened for the last fifty years. And yeah, I mean at the time I remember they said, " ; Do you want to press charges?" ; and I was just sort of in shock, and I didn' ; t. But maybe knowing what I now-- know now maybe I should have, but I, I didn' ; t even think of it. EL: How did you, how did you move past that experience? CDH: Um, I don' ; t know, I still think about it sometimes. I can remember the man' ; s face, and how he looked at my face and he just hated me. I can see it very clearly. He just saw my face, and he just hated me right away. Which is crazy! I, I will say he actually was black, and I understand that there is sometimes animosity between those two communities, and I know why that' ; s there because he' ; s obviously more oppressed than I am, so I just sometimes think of that. EL: And given that, that you had this experience some time ago, when all of this news over the past year started t- to be talked about, that hate directed at AAPI folks, especially directed at women, and in many cases elderly women, CDH: Yeah, EL: How did you react to that? CDH: Well it made me feel very sad, it made me feel vulnerable, especially for like my mom, my aunts, my grandma, it made me worried a l-, really worried for them. But so we did, my mom and I are working on an initiative, we' ; re raising funds for Advancing Justice Chicago. We have a, a five concert series that we' ; re performing at church, and all the money we raise will go to fight anti-Asian racism. That' ; s the best we can do. EL: Have either one of you changed your, your behavior, your sort of daily behavior to protect yourselves? Do you feel you can protect yourselves? CDH: I don' ; t think we have, I keep telling all my relatives, " ; You have to be careful!" ; but, but they' ; re like, " ; No we' ; re strong we' ; re fine!" ; Though I will say one of my best friends who is Korean, drives with a block over the side, so that no one can tell she' ; s Asian when she' ; s driving. Teresa does. BH: Oh really? CDH: ' ; Cause she' ; s, she lives in the suburbs and she' ; s afraid. EL: Thank you for sharing that experience. So, I want to switch back to Sunnie briefly, are there any particular people, places, or events that hold special meaning for you from your childhood? BH: Hmm, well I' ; m sure there are, as I said the Co-Op Investors, that Christmas party, and then every year the Resettler' ; s committee had a picnic, and I remember going to that one. Co-Op Investors would also do a, we did, like a r- not a retreat we' ; d like, we went up to a camp somewhere for a weekend, stayed three nights at some cabin in Northern Michigan, or something, or Wisconsin. That was super fun. The church' ; s, it used to be called a Bazaar, now it' ; s called Aki-Matsuri for the last 30 years, and that' ; s always a great event. Can I think of anything else? I can' ; t. EL: Can you describe for me some of the activities at the Resettler' ; s picnics? BH: I' ; m afraid I can' ; t, I was young. They w- I' ; m sure they had relay races and games and stuff like that. Tha- our church picnic is also a lot of fun. We have games, but we also have like a potluck I should say that the potlucks of, like Mother' ; s Day potluck, or just any of the potlucks that we have at our church, the food is fantastic! So it' ; s a lot about the food and it' ; s great! EL: And then, are there still elements of Japanese food present at those events? CDH: Oh yeah! It' ; s all Japanese food. BH: Oh! Yeah a lot. It' ; s mostly, it' ; s mostly Japanese food. CDH: It' ; s the best home cooked Japanese food! BH: Yes, it' ; s y-you know, age-sushi, inari-sushi, and maki-sushi, and-- CDH: --teriyaki, BH: --teriyaki, CDH: --chashu, BH: --yeah! (laughs) EL: I' ; m, I' ; m curious about language, especially because you mentioned Chelsea that you studied Japanese, and your, your sister studied Japanese. Barbara, did you grow up knowing Japanese at all? BH: I did not! (laughs) And this is crazy, because I did visit my other daughter in Japan when she was living there, and everybody would come up to talk to me and I would give them this blank look, and then my daughter would start talking in very fluent Japanese. And that was kind of off-putting I think for the people there. I-- this is one of those things like, " ; Oh I wish I hadn' ; t quit piano when I was young" ; --that people say. I mean I didn' ; t quit piano, I still play piano. But all the other kids had to go to Japanese school, and we did not. And I was really happy that we didn' ; t have to go, ' ; cause they all hated it, but of course now I wish I could speak Japanese. I really do. EL: Do you know why your parents didn' ; t make you go? BH: My parents, I like to think that my parents were pretty modern, sort of, not separate from the Japanese American community, but willing to send me to private school, and look at other outside opportunities for us-- CDH: --I think Grandma also really wanted to assimilate, I feel like they were purposely not giving you a Japanese cultural childhood, you and my aunts. Because they really felt-- I feel like for my grandma after the experience of the internment camps, she really wanted you guys to be Americanized. BH: And ambitious yeah. CDH: Yes, and really be true American girls, with American names and like leave that behind you know? BH: Yeah, I think you' ; re right. EL: How did, how does that make you feel about some of the elements of Japanese culture that have been lost, that weren' ; t transmitted from your grandparents generation to your mother, and thus couldn' ; t be transmitted from your mother to you? CDH: Yeah, I, I do think it' ; s a shame and I think all my cousins feel that way. We, we wish, I mean hindsight is 20-20, but we wish there had been more of a passing of it along, because neither of my aunts ha- have it either and all of their kids are interested in their cultural heritage too. So it' ; s, it' ; s too bad that that' ; s not what happened. EL: Do you feel that by studying Japanese yourself in college and then studying abroad in Japan you were able to reclaim some of that heritage? CDH: Oh definitely, and I know my cousin also studied Japan-- Japanese in school as well. We were all kind of wanting to get back that piece of our identity that we didn' ; t have as much, and it, it' ; s not anyone' ; s fault! (laughs) BH: (laughs) CDH: But it was important to us, so yes, mos- we all studied Japanese and we all went abroad and lived in Japan, and yeah it was very-- it was, it made me feel proud to reclaim that. BH: I think, like Jane Kaihatsu too, like a l- there were people even my age, CDH: She' ; s a sansei. BH: --who felt, they wanted to find out more about that piece of themselves of their identity and did go explore in Japan. CDH: Mhmm, definitely. EL: And regarding incarceration, have any members of your family participated in pilgrimages back to Tule Lake? CDH: No, I think we would be interested, but that' ; s the piece of th-- my grandma wants to not look at it, is I don' ; t think she would ever want to go back there. And she wouldn' ; t ever want to discuss it. And in fact most of the Nisei I know do not want to talk about it, the only Nisei I, I knew who would let us like interview her was very young at the time, she was only like 10 when she was incarcerated, so she didn' ; t have the same emotional experience that older people did. But so, for my grandma s- I don' ; t think she' ; d ever be interested in retracing that. BH: And she' ; s 100 now, so clearly her parents and all the Issei are gone. CDH: Yeah, it' ; s too bad ' ; cause I think the rest of us would be interested. EL: If you could talk to your grandmother about her time in camp or if you could speak to your mother about time in camp, what would you most want to ask her? BH: Hmm, (laughs) CDH: I mean, I would like to know her, how she felt emotionally and like everything! I' ; d want to know what her daily life was like, and I' ; d want to know everything about the experience. Remember we did find that, she had been like the publisher of the newsletter or something we found these old papers and, yeah-- BH: Right, no I told her about that, and I want to bring them and have them go into the historical-- CDH: But my feeling is that she is just not interested in discussing that at all. BH: There' ; s, yeah. I- even when we found those sketches, I believe what I was doing was trying to do oral histories from my parents on camera. So I was interviewing my dad, ' ; cause my mom didn' ; t want to do it and I found those sketches, I think I was showing them to my dad and my mom, or-- I was asking my dad about questions, and my mom brought out these sketches. She would never have done it if we had asked her directly, but it was because I was interviewing my dad that all of a sudden these little sketches suddenly appeared. But then, she didn' ; t really want to talk about them after that. CDH: Actually, I tal- do you remember this crazy story? So, my husband is Italian-American and I' ; m Slovenian and Japanese, so when we had our, we had like a bridal shower at church and we had all different kinds of food and I was like, " ; Oh I, I thought it' ; d be fun, I put up the three flags for Slovenia, Italy, and Japan, and one of the nisei woman came up to me and said " ; Chelsea, I' ; m worried we' ; re going to get in trouble because you put up the Rising Sun, should we take that down?" ; She' ; s like, " ; What if the police come?" ; And I was like, " ; Well, I, I promise you we will be okay but if you really feel uncomfortable, I could take it down?" ; and she was like, " ; No, no I just want to make sure that you' ; re careful." ; But she was like, afraid! EL: And what year was that in? CDH: 2007? Like this was fairly recent, but she was nervous cuz I put up the Japanese flag. BH: Wow. EL: Chelsea, I would like to ask you as a fellow mixed-raced Japanese American, BH: --it' ; s almost 4:15 so-- CDH: Okay. EL: --and given that you grew up very much connected to the Japanese American community here, were you ever made to feel less than because you were half? CDH: Definitely not by the community here in Chicago, and definitely not my parents or grandparents, friends, definitely not. But I will say in college I sometimes felt I didn' ; t really belong in one group or the other just from being mixed race. So I, I felt that more when I stepped out of my own community that I' ; d been raised in. EL: And did you know many other mixed-race Japanese Americans growing up? CDH: Aside from my own family I don' ; t think I did. My cousins are, and-- BH: That' ; s it, yeah. CDH: --no, I think I really-- and in fact I think it was much a rarer to be mixed Japanese when I was little, now I see many-- like my sons, many of their friends are half-Asian, but when I was little it was much rarer to be half-Asian. EL: And I think we' ; ll pause there so that you can take off. -- EL: So we were talking about pilgrimage and maybe interest in your generation and your children' ; s generation but out of respect for your mother' ; s feelings about it, you all choose not to participate in pilgrimage. We talked a little bit about Chelsea' ; s mixed-race experience, and I' ; m wondering, you mentioned trying to do oral history, and, and how your mother engaged a little bit only because you were talking to your father. Was your father willing to talk about camp at all, or was it just his military experience? BH: Yeah, I think he would have been much more willing to talk about it, I just don' ; t even remember if I asked him much. But, yeah my dad was, is more open-- Was. EL: And did you, did you have other relatives or family friends who did talk openly about camp? BH: I don' ; t think so. I think, I would think a universal Sansei experience would be that the Issei and the Nisei did not talk about camp. There' ; s that Japanese um, Japanese virtue gaman. You don' ; t monku-monku about, you don' ; t complain, you just get on, so-- EL: So how did you go about educating yourself about this very important piece of your family' ; s history? BH: I think, I didn' ; t go about educating myself, I think pieces of it just would come out here and there like, " ; What camp were you at?" ; " ; We were at Tule Lake." ; " ; Oh, how old were you?" ; That, but over the years. Just, and you put it together, that piece of the puzzle with what you read of elsewhere or find out about from films, or other media, and it just fits in and becomes part of that picture. EL: Did you feel a sense of loss in terms of cultural heritage, or did it ever occur to you that, that you hadn' ; t received cultural knowledge from your parents? BH: No, as I say because-- we' ; re so Western, my family was so Western compared to many of the, most of my other Sansei friends, that I felt unique or proud of that. So no, I didn' ; t feel that until now. I wish I could speak Japanese, or knew how to cook Japanese food better-- EL: So how did it feel when your children did feel a sense of loss or something missing and then took steps to acquire that for themselves? BH: I don' ; t think it was expressed as a sense of loss, I think it' ; s more of a sense of curiosity, wanting to know about this. So when she took Japanese in college I said, " ; Oh, that' ; s great, that sounds like fun!" ; And the same thing for m-- and then she did her junior year abroad in Japan, in Osaka. And then my youngest daughter actually got a fellowship to teach at a college in Ja- Japan, to teach English at a college in Japan. So she was there for three years, and got really fluent in Japanese culture and Ja- and Japanese language. EL: And other than the awkwardness of people expecting you to speak Japanese when you were in Japan, what was the experience like for you, going to visit your, your children in Japan? BH: Well it, that was the last two weeks of a three month around the Pacific thing. My partner and I backpacked, we went to Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and then we went to Japan. So, he was tired, and wanted to get home, and I thought it was just-- the food was fantastic, just delicious food which is a crucial part of any culture for me. And so the food was great, but he found the culture so foreign. Like of all the places that we had visited, this was the most foreign. We' ; ve been all over the world in many, many different cultures but the juxtaposition of the ancient and the modern and I mean technologically, way futuristic modern, just was so jarring to him. And the fact that when we approached anybody to talk to them people were very, and would run away. They just, they were very wary of us and t- of tourists and didn' ; t want to talk. And he found that pretty off-putting. (laughs) EL: Was that in more rural areas, or also in cities? BH: No, no no no. That was in Tokyo and Osaka. Everywhere we went, we' ; d ask a question, people' ; d just, in English, I would say like, " ; Do you speak English?" ; and they' ; d all (no gesture). And this was in 2000 so, I understand-- well I could be wrong, I think somebody told me that now things are, you see English signs and things like that. But then you didn' ; t. So when we' ; re trying to get around the subway, and every name of every stop was in Japanese letters, and we' ; d just like, they all look the same! It' ; s very hard. Like which stop did we want? Is it that one? That one? That one? So, yeah. So he, he was not very fond, he didn' ; t like it very much. I would of course love to go back. We did have a couple of wonderful experiences at a ryokan, a minshuku, and that was pretty amazing ' ; cause it was in the winter, so nobody was there. We were the only guests. They have the outdoor Japanese, the min-, what is it, the hot tub out there? And the, in the minshuku, the woman, her neighbor had caught a fish. She said, " ; Oh, my neighbor caught a fish, I will, do you like, I will serve it to you as sashimi." ; She brought in this huge platter of sashimi. I' ; m a vegetarian, my daughter does not care for sashimi, so we just sort of looked at, at my partner, Randy, and said " ; You gotta do us proud." ; So he ate the whole thing of sashimi, the entire big tuna that was on this platter! EL: He took one for the team. BH: He did. I mean he loves sashimi, but there was enough for five people. (laughs) EL: So I think, I would like to know, what you think I should be asking about the Sansei experience in Chicago? BH: Um, what should you be asking about it? It' ; s pretty great I think. I think there was a lot of opportunities in the, amongst the different groups and activities. So the MBT I think had the Boy Scouts, and the Drum and Bugle Corps, and then there was the Inter-church volleyball league. And, I, I feel like, and the, and Senn High School I think a lot of Japanese Americans were at Senn High School. There was also a group who were in Hyde Park, then they moved up to the North side too. But then, a lot of people started moving out to the suburbs, as I got, by the time they were getting out of, getting into college. I think a lot of families were moving out. But for a while there, it was pretty, I think it was a pretty nice, connected community. As I said earlier, you can meet somebody and they' ; d say, you' ; d say your name, they' ; d say, " ; Oh, Hikawa!" ; or whatever their name might be. They' ; d know somebody, or they knew of you or-- So there was a lot of connection, there were the three grocery store-- the three stores on the Belmont-Clark intersection, and so we used to always go to York Foods, or Toguri' ; s, or-- Star Market, yes, Star Market I believe the owner went to our church even. So, and those communities were big, as I said we had a huge Sunday School, there must have been 300, 500 members? Not like now, where we have 50, maybe? Because, our Nisei, we used to have a Nisei congregation, they' ; re all gone. Now we have the Nisei, and very few of them left. My mom is a hundred, but she lives with my sister, wherever my sister goes. So, she' ; s not part of that community anymore, most of ' ; em, a lot of ' ; em have left, and a lot of them have died. So that' ; s pretty sad. And I guess I think, you grew up on the East Coast, but you didn' ; t know a Japanese American community, my guess is. EL: No, I didn' ; t. BH: But even if you had, I wonder if there were one. Even for my daughter' ; s age, for the Yonsei. Here, this far removed from the West Coast. West Coast, I don' ; t, there' ; s, it' ; s certainly not as much solidarity to that group as there was when I was growing up, when it was definitely-- a lot of my, the people I know like at my church, other Sansei, their friends are all other Sansei. They have lots of Sansei friends, so-- And certainly, as I said, my parent' ; s group of friends was very connected. And I think that' ; s really nice to have had that. So I feel sorry for other communities that weren' ; t as rich perhaps as the one in Chicago. My guess is if you lived out in a smaller town or some other state it wasn' ; t that. So I' ; m, I' ; m grateful for that. EL: Do you think there' ; s anything that the Japanese American community in Chicago now could or should be doing that would help strengthen the sense of community or connectedness between us? BH: No, I' ; m afraid I feel like it' ; s-- not disintegrated, but it' ; s been stretched pretty thin maybe. I- more people moving out to more suburbs. A lot of the Sansei I know, their kids don' ; t live here, they' ; ve all moved away. That' ; s just the way of the world we' ; re a much more mobile society that way people move away they don' ; t stay as my parents' ; generation did and raising their families in one place. So I don' ; t, I, I wouldn' ; t, I can' ; t think of anything. I know that coming here to the JASC, I come for taiko drumming lessons here, and I' ; m sort of impressed that the other people in the group, some of whom are also Sansei, do speak some Japanese. And the offerings here are a lot for Japanese people who have, there' ; s, there is that community here because-- mostly in the north suburbs a lot of corporations I think brought Japanese executives in, people from Japan. So there' ; s a " ; Japanese-Japanese ' ; ' ; community that exists of which I know absolutely nothing, I' ; m not in touch with them. But I do have a friend from Berlin who is from Japan, so when she comes-- her husband is from Chicago, so when she comes, they come to Chicago, she plays in a koto group out in Arlington Heights or someplace and is-- And since she speaks Japanese, she' ; s in touch with that group but as a Japanese American, I' ; m not. Oops, I think I touched my mic. So I, I wish I could a- think of something, but I, I don' ; t know. EL: And for your grandchildren, Chelsea mentioned that her spouse is not Japanese American, so that would make your grandchildren one quarter Japanese American. BH: She calls them " ; quapa" ; . Quapa, like half is hapa, and then quapa. (laughs) EL: What do you do as a grandparent to, to help them understand that piece of their diverse heritage and-- BH: Well, I don' ; t think I do anything particular. But I do know that for example, at my younger grandson' ; s nursery school last year, Chelsea offered to do a unit on Japan with the four-year-olds, or three-- no they were three-year-olds. And she said, " ; Do you want to help?" ; So I went, and we read a Japanese fairytale, and she' ; d created an art project with some watercolor on paper or something like that, making a, a fish kite or some Japanese-y kind of thing. So, I did that, I don' ; t know how connected they feel to it, but it' ; s, it' ; s a w-, it' ; s something that keeps it alive I think. EL: Is there anything, now that she' ; s not in the room, that you would like to ask Chelsea that you' ; ve never really felt you could or never had the opportunity to? BH: No not really, I pretty much would ask her whatever I want to if I feel like it! (laughs) EL: And, as we wrap up here I' ; m, I would love to know what motivated you to participate in the oral history project? BH: A couple of things. There was an exhibit not too long ago, at, I can' ; t remember the name of the gallery, but over on Fullerton and Halsted. And I went to that and they-- it was about the internment. And they showed some films, several films. And then I saw some people I knew. And often I' ; ll see films, or see exhibits even say, " ; This soldier from the 442nd" ; and it' ; d be like, " ; Oh it' ; s Sats Tanakatsubo" ; or some family I know, and I always feel like, " ; Well, why isn' ; t my family up there?" ; And then I thought, " ; Well, if I don' ; t do it nobody' ; s going to do it." ; So when I saw the thing that said, " ; Do you want to do an oral history project?" ; I thought, oh, I should do one. I' ; m about 10 years too late, but I should do it, so, that' ; s why I' ; m doing it. (laughs) EL: It' ; s never too late! And I' ; m very grateful for your participation. I think to close things out here, I' ; ll ask you what, what would you like future generations to know about you and your family? BH: Oh, hmm I just thought of something I wanted to say, and then let me think about that question. EL: Okay. BH: Which is, I remember that my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, did go back to Japan for a visit a couple of times. And they said, the thing they said was, everybody knew they were American-- by their shoes. It was the funniest thing, because obviously they were J-Japanese, they spoke J-Japanese, she said, but people would look at their shoes, and know that they weren' ; t Japanese. Why? Because our shoes were better? I' ; m not, I don' ; t know the answer to that. --Okay so now your question about is there anything I' ; d like-- EL: What would you most like future generations to know about you or your family? BH: Oh, hmm. About me and my family. EL: What would you like your legacy to be? BH: Oh I don' ; t know, that we, that we were part of the human race and tried to do our best to, to promote justice, and make the world better for some people? I guess? EL: I think that' ; s a lovely sentiment. I think we' ; ll end there so thank you very much. BH: Thank you. (smiles) Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HikawaBarbara20210623.xml HikawaBarbara20210623.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1 ","Sansei^^Yonsei^^Intergenerational^^Mixed-race^^Tule Lake^^Drum and Bugle Corps^^Christ Congregational Church",1800,,,,,,,"Hikawa, Barbara (Sunnie)^^Dolinar-Hikawa, Chelsea",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"ISHRAB,Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/998120c2b89ed4e7f37f5b920214b179.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
17,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/17,"Kawaguchi, Kayoko (6/2/2021)",,"Kay Kawaguchi, a shin-issei/sansei, describes the pre-war immigration journeys of her family and her husband's family, her husband's experiences while incarerated at Rohwer, and her own experiences in Japan during and after WWII. She also recalls her arrival in the U.S. in 1970 on a temporary visa and the circumstances that led to her eventual marriage and permanent residence in Chicago. A long-time employee at the Chicago Shimpo and the Japanese American Service Committee, she reflects on her community-centered work and shares her hopes for the future.",,,,2021-06-02,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml," 5.4 6/2/2021 Kawaguchi, Kayoko (6/2/2021) 1:05:12 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Shin-Issei Sansei Terminal Island Wakayama Osaka Rohwer Edgewater Beach Hotel Chicago Shimpo Japanese American Service Committee Kawaguchi, Kayoko (Kay) Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|22(9)|41(11)|60(13)|79(2)|95(1)|108(13)|116(1)|123(10)|134(3)|143(6)|152(12)|165(7)|177(9)|187(9)|201(5)|219(11)|227(4)|234(3)|247(10)|260(16)|266(13)|281(10)|307(5)|321(7)|331(6)|341(14)|349(4)|368(4)|376(1)|384(2)|397(5)|407(14)|415(12)|432(5)|445(1)|456(11)|468(9)|477(10)|484(5)|499(6)|508(11)|516(6)|539(11)|550(13)|574(14)|584(5)|595(2)|601(8)|616(14)|625(3)|634(7)|641(4)|648(5)|658(2)|669(5)|679(10)|689(6)|697(3)|708(9)|719(2)|727(3)|733(2)|743(6)|754(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/563747629/5ed5d00363 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/563747629?h=5ed5d00363" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kay Kawaguchi, a shin-issei/sansei, describes the pre-war immigration journeys of her family and her husband's family, her husband's experiences while incarerated at Rohwer, and her own experiences in Japan during and after WWII. She also recalls her arrival in the U.S. in 1970 on a temporary visa and the circumstances that led to her eventual marriage and permanent residence in Chicago. A long-time employee at the Chicago Shimpo and the Japanese American Service Committee, she reflects on her community-centered work and shares her hopes for the future. Emma Lincoln (EL): Today is June 2nd, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee Building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Kay Kawaguchi. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Thank you for joining us today. Kay Kawaguchi (KK): You' ; re welcome. EL: To get us started, could you please state your full name for me? KK: Kayoko Kawaguchi. EL: Okay, and what is your year of birth? KK: 1942. EL: And where were you born? KK: Osaka, Japan. EL: And is that also where you grew up? KK: Uhh, partially. I went to Wakayama, my mother' ; s hometown, because of the war and came back to Osaka again, so yeah, mostly. EL: And were your parents and grandparents also born and raised in Osaka or Wakayama? KK: My father' ; s side, and my mother' ; s side is Wakayama. EL: And when people ask what generation are you, how do you answer? KK: Shin-Issei. EL: Okay, and when did you come to the U.S. yourself? KK: 1970. EL: Okay, and who were the first people in your family to come to the U.S.? KK: My grandparents is Issei, so actually I' ; m a Issei, Shin-Issei, but it skipped. Because my mother is Japanese, because she was born in Japan, and my grandparents was born in Wakayama and immigrated to the U.S. And later, before the war started, they went back to Japan. My two uncles was born in U.S. so they are American citizens. EL: So your maternal grandparents immigrated, do you know approximately when that was? KK: I don' ; t exactly know. EL: Maybe early, early 20th century? Maybe? KK: Right. EL: And had some children in the U.S., and then returned to Japan, and then your mother was born in Japan, right? KK: Ah no, it was real funny story. My grandmother had 5 children, first 3 was the girls. Every time she was--got pregnant, she went back to Japan, and had the baby in Japan. Then left with the grand--her parents, and came back to U.S., that she did it for 3 times. Then last 2 was the boy, and I guess she was tired, going back and forth so, she had 2 boys in U.S. EL: I see. That' ; s very interesting that she was able to go back and forth-- KK: That' ; s right-- EL: --between the U.S. and Japan multiple times. So do you know much about what your grandparent' ; s life was like, on the West Coast? KK: Not much, but I think my grandfather was a fisherman in Terminal Island, and my grandmother was working at the cannery at that time, that' ; s only I know. EL: And were they still alive when you were born? KK: Yes. EL: When your family returned to Japan before you were born, do you know wh--why they chose to move back? KK: Oh that--that was original plan, well they immigrate here, they work hard, save money, and going back to Japan, and live in Japan. EL: I see. KK: But my um--one of the uncle, the oldest son returned to U.S., before war started, so he' ; s the one called, I don' ; t know, kibei? So he' ; s only one came back, then war started. EL: Okay, so when the war started, that uncle, was he living in the exclusion zone? Was he sent to a camp? KK: No, he was drafted after the war started, he was living with the, his uncle and cousins the time, then war started and he was drafted. And younger brother in Japan was also drafted in Japanese army. EL: Did that cause pain for your family? KK: Probably, but I was too young, so I don' ; t remember. But I know the grandmother was always worried about both side. EL: Right. So I' ; m going to shift gears a little bit, and talk about your husband' ; s family. And can you tell me a little, whatever you know, about your husband' ; s family' ; s experience during World War II? KK: My father-in-law, I never met him before I married, he passed away, but he was born in Niigata, Japan, and somehow moved to Wakayama, and lived there. And one day I guess he decided to come to the U.S. when we young and he, I think it was California, in San Francisco area? And he was doing school boy and going to school and working for the family, American family. And their family was, those days, governor or mayor' ; s brother' ; s house? And when he grew up, um--I think that master told him " ; You better get married" ; . So he wants to marry some Japanese woman so went back to Japan and married to the, my husband' ; s mother, and came back. In that time, that' ; s the way before the war started, and my husband' ; s mother and father was 22 years different in age--almost like father and daughter. But I guess it' ; s everything went well, then one day young...his friend, his friend wants to rent farm, to start farming. But he was not Japanese--I mean American, so he couldn' ; t rent a place. Then my husband' ; s father was uh, " ; OK, I think I can do that for you" ; so he went to the master and ask for it, and this one is I just hear, I don' ; t know if it' ; s truth or not. Master wrote the letter to the officials, " ; this boy was born in U.S. and I know his parents was. He grow up here and went back to Japan, so he was American citizen" ; , and he got the paper and also um he can help the friend to rent the farm. But after that, we found out it was not true, because he had Japanese passport. My husband asked me one day, " ; Why did my father have a Japanese passport when he was a U.S. citizen?" ; then I found out that, that wasn' ; t true. Then-- EL: So, the whole, the whole time your husband thought that his father had been a U.S. citizen, and then how old was he when that passport was discovered? How was your husband when the passport was discovered and he learned his father was not a U.S. citizen? KK: That passport was, he is in, if it' ; s not mistake, probably he was late 20s, so um his real age was different. EL: So what happened to your husband' ; s family then? When the war started? KK: So living, my husband was born in, um, whoops, Downey, California. And I think he went to school there, and grammar school. So, so he have uh, three sisters, and he was the last one and it was boy, so father was really happy. Then when he was seven-years-old, the war started. No wait, maybe the war started...10 I think went in camp, and there was, Rohwer, Arkansas. The whole family went in there, so my sister-in-law went to high school in that camp. This maybe half year or one year before war ended, they came, got out the camp, went to Michigan. They had a farming job, they' ; re looking for the season labor, so the whole family went there. EL: I see, did they talk much about the camp experience when you met them? KK: Mmm, a little bit. But my husband had some good time when he was young, some older people there it' ; s like uh, maybe teenager, or 17-18 years old friend, the couple people had a duty there going to a town once a week or something to pick up a mail in the post office and bring to the camp. So he wants to go out the camp, I mean city. Then friend said, " ; You wanna go?" ; , he says " ; Yes" ; . They put him into the bag, the mail bag, tied the top, put him in a car, and drove out the gate and went to pick up a mail and peek a little bit, and outside the town and again he' ; s in the bag and come back to the camp. [Laughs] EL: And he didn' ; t get caught? KK: Didn' ; t get caught. [smiles] EL: Having grown up in Japan yourself and not having come to the U.S. until much later after the war, were you aware of the history of incarceration of Japanese Americans? KK: I heard about it but I never thought that bad, because in Japan a lot of people had difficult time those days. No meal. But those days I hear that they had enough meal. Well I don' ; t know the truth or not but that' ; s what I hear it. And American government took care of them, but in Japan it' ; s all country but most of people they have enough to eat and they always have to escape from the bombing. So there was a hard time. EL: You were very young during the war. Do you, do you have clear memories of the hardships that you experienced during the war? KK: Mmm, my father went to the war, drafted. So my mother and myself went to mother' ; s hometown it' ; s a village rural area and lived there with a grandmother. And I was small, and those village, didn' ; t have much childrens because young man is all went to the war, and not many young, small, kids there. So I walk around the neighbors, and I always get treat, they was so happy, and I didn' ; t have much memory of that hard time. EL: How about during the occupation period? KK: That time, I was back to Osaka. Then father came back from the war, and we lost the house and everything else. So we rent the friend' ; s house or whatever. Even that, they probably, adult had hard time, all the mothers and other people. But I don' ; t have much memory of that. And few year later, my uncle in Japan, contact to us, " ; War is ended" ; so he sent us, once a month? Maybe every other month? Small package from Japan. I was looking forward to it. [Smiles] There' ; s lot of candies in there. [laughs] EL: He was sending from Japan or from the U.S. to Japan? KK: From U.S. to Japan. EL: So this is your uncle who stayed in the U.S. and served in the U.S. military. Okay, what was in those packages? KK: Packages is candies, coffee, and I remember the Crisco? And the funny thing is uncle sent to grandmother, to his mother, he said, " ; What you want?" ; well we didn' ; t have much things here, but food didn' ; t taste good. So what he sent to her is little packages of Aji-no-moto. [laughs] It' ; s really funny in U.S. they had Aji-no-moto! [laughs] EL: It' ; s a Japanese product! KK: It is! EL: So your, your uncle living in the U.S. was sending a Japanese product from the U.S. back to Japan. KK: Yeah, just Aji-no-moto, all other stuff is-- EL: Was American? KK: Mhmm, and that, I remember the spam, the can of spam he sent us. That was a treat for me. It' ; s meat, which usually we don' ; t eat much. But I had uh fish, a lot of fish, living in, near the ocean in Wakayama, but that--and Lipton' ; s chicken noodle soup, in the dry package? That I loved, those days. And because other, other families don' ; t have those things, so when every time package come, mother and grandma cut up the paper, and put the candy in so many different papers and wrap up, and they give to the neighbor' ; s kid. So I was watching this, is that my candy gonna be here, left, when it' ; s end of the day? I would worry about it! And it' ; s about, I was uh three, four, four years old? But I said, we didn' ; t have much rice but we had plenty of seafood. And one things when I think about now was that actually, after the war ended, no more bombing, fishermen went out to the ocean, and they found a lot of lobsters there living under the, you know ocean. And they caught a lot! So that was, they provided us this, replace the rice, the big lobster in our house, and we can' ; t eat it up right away, so grandmother wrap up the lobster in the cloth, and keep ' ; em in under the tatami, the ground. They live in there for a while, there' ; s no refrigerations, and sleep, at night time, I hear the noise, ' ; gigigigi' ; , it' ; s you know the, they rubbing their, you know? Body? There was uh--big lobster, they called it ise-ebi in Japan, delicious. And after I grew up, I didn' ; t have much chance to eat that! So expensive! [laughs] EL: So you were rice poor but lobster rich at that time. KK: Mhmm! [laughs] EL: I' ; m curious, and maybe, maybe you don' ; t know because you were a child then, but during the war especially, but also after the war, were your grandparents able to stay in communication with their one son who was serving in the U.S. military? KK: Yes, that letter they sent back and forth, yeah. EL: Skipping forward a little bit, to the point in your life where you left Japan and came to the U.S., and what year was that in again? KK: Excuse me, what was that? EL: What year was that in? KK: Oh I came here in 1970, but before that when I was a 4th grader, my grandpar--, --mother, --father, grandfather, passed away. And grandma and one of the uncle discharged from the Japanese military, he said I' ; m a American citizen, I' ; m taking my mother to, back to U.S. And brother is there, so he applied for that, and it took a few years because he went to the war in Japanese military, they didn' ; t okay right away. And um, when they went back to U.S., I went to the Kobe, the harbor, the big ship was there, called the President Wilson, the huge boat those days to me. And they went back to Japa--I mean U.S. with that boat. And since that, I was always thinking about, if I am going to U.S. someday, I want to go with that boat. So, when I was 28, the dream come true. Those days, already the airplane was available, but I want to get on that boat, and I found out the boat is almost end of the duty, last couple trip and going to uh military or something. So I got on and that time, they says, " ; There' ; s no space left for you" ; but then, they call me and they say " ; One cancellation, you want to go?" ; I says " ; Yes" ; . So I got on there. EL: So you chose to go on a boat even though you could have gone on an airplane? KK: Right. EL: And at that time there was your one uncle who had been in the U.S. the whole time, and the-and also the uncle and your grandmother who had already left Japan and went back to the U.S. KK: Grandmother that time she went back to Japan, she said " ; I' ; m too old, live in America" ; . And I think this country is for the young people, so she came back by herself and end her life in Japan. EL: I see. KK: After I came to here. But when I want to go, she said " ; You may and you have to go ' ; cause you' ; re young, you should experience the U.S." ; EL: So she encouraged you to go. KK: Yes. EL: Did you go by yourself? KK: Here? EL: Yeah, on that boat. KK: Yes. EL: Were you excited? KK: In a way, and also a little bit afraid of it, going to the new place. That' ; s another reason I took a boat. That' ; s 14 days in the ocean with other people, and many of them Americans. So I said, " ; Oh maybe I get used to a little bit" ; so... EL: That was very wise for you at age 20 to recognize you would need that slower transition. KK: Well, no I am 28 at that time. [laughs] EL: 28, still very wise! KK: Yeah. [smiles] EL: Do you remember the boat ride? KK: Mhmm, yes. That time, yes Yokohama. Then um, to the Hawaii is 10 days and from Hawaii to San Francisco was 4 days. And all the--really smooth trip, that crossing oceans. And Hawaii we get off for one day, and they had a, like a tour, but also you can go your own. And I think it was ju--partially took a tour, and first time start walking ground, it little bit funny because it' ; s 10 days in a boat you know move you know? But it was hot too and dry. And uh, I remember the first time I had a really, really, tasty pineapple. The place they, you know demonstration and cut up and serving to the people and um first time I found out you have to pay tax every time you buy something. And also, if it' ; s a restaurant you gotta give them a tip, which in Japan I never give to them, so it was real funny st--. " ; Oh maybe I wonder I have enough money for end of the trip?" ; . EL: How had you saved up enough money for your, your boat fare? KK: After high school I graduate, I start working, I don' ; t know what is college too but I think about it and I went company a small company I was start working there. And I also did a little bit for invest money. Then at night time I went to school, it' ; s not the regular college but for writing poems and novels, but my job got really busy and I have to give up because I couldn' ; t keep my eye open anymore! [laughs] So I quit the school, and time being I save money. EL: So when you arrived in the U.S., what was your intent? Were you planning to stay long term? KK: No, I just wanna see--meet every relative in the U.S. Because I have cousins and uncles. And cousin is previously visit to Japan once before I leave there so I knew them. Then um so I have a relative in California, L.A. and San Jose and uhh some in Chicago. So I says I would like to have one year to experience living there and meet the relatives. But they only give me 6 months. 6 months? It' ; s okay. So I came here and I want to do something, so, but, language is barrier. So I was taking a little class in Japan for flower arrangement, in Western style. And that school have a connection in Chicago' ; s flower arrangement school, so I registered for that, and they have some special class for us in Japanese. So I just did that, and that was a good thing because I paid in Japanese yen to tuitions, so I don' ; t have to spend my precious dollars. Only 1000 dollar I can have it, exchanged in those days. So I went to school a little bit in Japan and came here, and that was Chicago, so before the school start in September, I stay with my two uncles, one in San Jose and one in L.A. EL: When you say they only gave you 6 months, do you mean the government, the U.S. government, only gave you a 6 month visa? KK: That' ; s right, yes, passport, visa. EL: And you came to Chicago because of this connection between your flower arrangement school in Japan and-- KK: And my relatives. EL: --And the school here and your relatives here. KK: It was funny, day before the school start, my cousin took me to downtown, there was a school there, aba--uh Wabash. And I have to get off at the Van Buren to go into the school. And my cousin told me you get on, I think she told me " ; Blue" ; . And it' ; s " ; B" ; , don' ; t get on " ; A" ; , it' ; s a blue train and B. " ; Okay" ; . And I was, next day I was waiting in the station, blue train it never come, it' ; s all greens. And I look at the sign, and I saw that sign background was blue, and that " ; B" ; and I says " ; OH, that was--I was waiting for about 30 minutes in the station!" ; . [laughs] So I get on there and I was keep my ear open and looking outside, I will miss the station, and I didn' ; t know what the conductor saying, announcing. And I look at conductor and he was chewing gum and saying the same time. I says, " ; No wonder I can' ; t hear well because he chewing gum" ; . Then, after that he was stopped chewing gum still don' ; t--I don' ; t understand what he saying! [laughs] So, and anyway I catched the station and got off, then next day, same thing, but I don' ; t want to miss it because announce their way, it' ; s, they don' ; t say " ; next is where" ; and " ; Belmont, next" ; . So next always comes at end of it. So when said next, that means I missed the top, the beginning, the name of a station. So I count the station next day, and every time stop, 1, 2, 3! [laughs] EL: So that was how you figured out not to miss your station. KK: That' ; s right, so my ear was not used to English, and the pronunciation is different too. EL: Did you speak any English before you came here? KK: Not much, " ; hello" ; ," ; how are you?" ; , and " ; thank you" ; , and " ; what is this" ; , few words. But I live with my cousin' ; s house, and my cousins speak little Japanese, with most English, my aunt and uncle speak Japanese fully, so that was help. But the flower arrangement school, th--it--cousin took me to one day before, and its, " ; Oh good, because it' ; s full of students, all Japanese, okay I can go with them, maybe I don' ; t understand, but I can ask them." ; The day the school start, I went there, I am the only one Japanese. So I ask the secretary, " ; What happened to the other Japanese girls?" ; And she said, " ; Oh, they finished the course, and they went back to Japan." ; [laughs] That was the last day I went there, and I was only one. But most bo--arrangement things by hand, so I catch up. EL: So if your original intent was to stay for a year, but you were limited to six months by your visa, what changed? KK: Umm, I was, after the school training was, 4 weeks? When I finished that, the secretary told me, " ; One of the flower shops need of somebody help, so if you want to train, working there as a trainee, you can go there" ; . I said, " ; Okay, I learned something, so school is maybe not enough for it" ; , so I said okay, and also downtown. Right across the street, of--I mean a river of the merchandise mart, a small shop, I went there, and start working. Somehow, boss likes me. And of course the Japanese they work hard. And then um, I can' ; t get salary because I' ; m training, but he bought me lunch, and he gave me the bus fare. And so I was working, sometimes he pick me up too, and I was working there, and pretty soon I have to go back to Japan because my visa expired. Boss says, " ; Well, I need you here" ; . Cheap labor right? [laughs] Lunch and car fare! So he said, " ; My son is a lawyer so let me see if he could do something about it." ; Then, few weeks, just few weeks, he extended, another one year. EL: What was that boss' ; name? KK: Mike Kaplan. He passed away. EL: And what was the name of his flower shop? KK: ' ; Mike' ; s Floral Shop' ; . [smiles] EL: So, so Mike Kaplan' ; s son helped you extend your visa by another year, and then after that did you go back to Japan, or did you stay? KK: No, in time--in between I met my husband, and married. EL: And how did you meet your husband? KK: He was my auntie and uncle' ; s sister-in-law' ; s friend. They were in same camp, in Rohwer. And they was talking about it and I didn' ; t know. They said " ; One boy is out from camp in Chicago here, but he still single yet." ; EL: So they introduced you? KK: Mhmm, and he came to my, my uncle' ; s house, and the first time I met him, the first things he asked me, he tried to speak in Japanese, so he said, " ; Sakana suki desu ka?" ; [laughs] " ; Do you like fish?" ; I says, " ; The fish to eat, or fish in general?" ; I didn' ; t know his hobby was tropical fish and aquariums, so he explained to me, he says " ; I don' ; t know I like it or not, I never think about it" ; but I says " ; maybe" ; . [laughs] EL: What was your first impression of him? KK: Uhh, you know, the age difference was about 10 years, I know he was 10 year older than me, said " ; oh, a little bit too old for me" ; but then he looks young, and I didn' ; t make any decision, but I, and he' ; s nice, nice guy, seems honest. He look a little bit shy, but I start going date. EL: What kind of places did you go on your dates? KK: It was funny too, he said " ; You wanna go miniature golf?" ; He took me to golf, miniature golf course, and he drove all over, couldn' ; t find the place and he say, " ; I knew that was here, what happened to it?!" ; " ; You came before?" ; he says, " ; Yes!" ; " ; How long ago?" ; " ; 10 years" ; . I says " ; 10 years?! Maybe they are out of business or moved to some place!" ; [laughs] So that, you could tell what kind of, you know, person he is. And we went to Michigan for tulip festival, Wisconsin Dells, something like that. But mostly, just drive around here. EL: And at what point did you get married? KK: Between, I lost my grandmother. She passed away in Japan. I feel like I want to go back to Japan. Then, my mother told me, " ; Remember Grandma want you to live in the U.S., and she passed away already, and we finished the funeral, if you come back here maybe you cannot go back." ; So I decided here in that time, and he proposed me before, I says I wasn' ; t really ready, but that time I says, I decided. And I wasn' ; t young either, I was 29 already, so that' ; s what happened. [laughs] EL: And what was your early married life like? Where did you live? KK: Um, one things my husband was worried about, he asked me before I married, " ; If we marry, can' ; t you live with my mother?" ; That' ; s his mother, so my mother-in-law, and in a way, in Japan, usually that happens when husband is oldest son or something. So I says, " ; I don' ; t know why he is asking me, yeah, okay." ; And I think he met a couple other girls before me, they both said no, so he couldn' ; t get married! [laughs] So that' ; s what--we lived with his mother, and second floor, my sister-in-law' ; s living there with family, that' ; s what my American life actually started there. And I was sta--still working at the flower shop, and soon I got permanent visa. EL: How much longer did you continue to work at the flower shop? KK: Not too long full time, because year after that I got pregnant, I was kinda sick. But I was still going there until I had baby, or maybe a couple months before, I quit. But often the boss called me, and he wants to--you know help, on a holiday or something. EL: And where was your husband working during that time? KK: That time, he was working at a Medical, this company called Medical Chemical? They make medication for the government. EL: Do you happen to know, when he came out of camp, and his whole family came out of camp, they went to Michigan first farming, and came to Chicago, how did he go about finding employment? KK: In Michigan, he was still going high school that time. After graduated, his oldest sister found job in Chicago, she came by herself, start working, and telling the parents, " ; Why don' ; t you come to Chicago, there' ; s a lot of, uh you know, jobs?" ; and over there in winter time, no jobs. So they were working at restaurants in the Michigan, South Haven. So the whole family moved to Chicago. And that time, my husband went to school for two years with accounting or something, which he never finished it, he didn' ; t like the numbers. [laughs] Anyway, that was uh--no wait a minute, that' ; s I' ; m sorry, that' ; s mistake. He came here and he work different places, then he got drafted. Went to war, two years, came back, that time still the mother and father, and sister was living in the apartment. Then he decided, talked to father, " ; Let' ; s buy the apartment." ; And he was sending the money to parents from the military. He never went overseas, was saving money for the down payment. And came back, and Papa put some money in too, and bought apartment. Only two flat, but that' ; s enough for living themselves, and one of the sister' ; s and family. So that time, mother and father was working at the hotel. EL: Do you know which-- EL: Okay, I think we were talking about your husband' ; s family, and they moved from Michigan to Chicago and bought a two flat, and your in-laws were working at a hotel. KK: That' ; s right. EL: Which hotel was that? KK: Edgewater. EL: And I know your father-in-law passed away before you became part of the family, but did you ever hear your mother-in-law talk about that experience? KK: That working? EL: Working at the hotel? KK: Yeah I think she was um, maid, cleaning the room and the sheets and things. She didn' ; t say much about it, but um my husband every day drop her off at the hotel and pick her up, then he went to work and whatever, so um. Yeah he told me, yeah Mama didn' ; t tell me much but my husband, that time, he had one regular job, and one part time job, and one weekend job. And he paid off the apartment in six years. EL: By working 3 jobs. KK: Mhmm right. EL: And at that time, you were raising your children, and working sometimes with the flower shop? KK: Mhmm right, right. EL: That two flat, that, that his earnings from the military, and then his earnings from working three jobs helped pay for, where was that located? KK: 3642 North Wilton. Right next to uh Wrigley field. [laughs] EL: And that property has, has stayed in the family hasn' ; t it? KK: Hmm? EL: That property is still in the family, correct? KK: Right, right. EL: So that has been your home, here in Chicago ever since you were married. KK: That' ; s right, so I never pay rent. [laughs] EL: How was it living with your mother-in-law, that can be challenging sometimes. KK: Mhmm, first things I tell her, " ; Oh, it' ; s nothing" ; but it was something! [laughs] Because we grow up in totally different environment and different family, and uh generation is different too. But every time I think about it, it' ; s my husband' ; s mother, if we both had problem, he' ; s in between, so we tried not to. Then, I think I handled it pretty good. [laughs] EL: And eventually as your children got older, did you start working again? KK: Right, my um, the son, is youngest one, start going kindergarten. I, I decide to work, because I need a little bit more extra money to make things easier. So I was looking for the job, and one day I see that, a small ad in the Chicago Shimpo. They are looking for somebody, and for newspaper I have experience in Japan, maybe I will write article or something, so I called them, I say, " ; Anything I can do at home?" ; Writing article and send to them, I can do that. And they said, " ; No, we want somebody come to the office everyday." ; So I asked them, if I can start working after the kids go to school, and I can come home before kids come home? And they said okay. So I start working part time in the Chicago Shimpo this 1982. EL: And what kind of work did you do at the Shimpo? KK: Except typing, those days use cold type and we have 3 typists, they type it. That I couldn' ; t do that, because I never try, but other than that, I contacted people, and I went in interview, write article, take a picture, decide to take a picture because until that, the Chicago Shimpo not many pictures in, in the newspaper. The one picture could say 10 page of the, you know, articles, so I start taking picture. Then I went to get advertising, and sometime make artwork for the ad, clean up the place, I--I did almost everything, except the typing. EL: And how long did you work there? KK: 13 years. EL: Did you enjoy your work? KK: Uh yes, yes I really enjoyed it. [smiles] Because it' ; s connected to people, so... El: How do you think the Chicago Shimpo is different now, from how it was when you were working there? KK: Totally different, because when I was working there, I want to focus on the community. So I cover the community news, even small or big, big New Year party and some banquet for--or little things happen in some families. Now, and on top of that, it' ; s--we used to use the cold type to type the article, news, and cut up, cut and paste. Now, it' ; s everything by computer, so that' ; s makes a lot of difference. And those days, big things was the president bought fax machine, its not many place had it. So we get the news from Japan every morning, making big noise " ; dududududududu" ; news come out with the paper. And sometimes that paper thing catch the character, couldn' ; t read it. But that' ; s latest news. Now, you just open up the computer you could see everything is there. Totally different, and today, I think they' ; re focusing more for Japanese companies, and people who came from Japan, because subscribers changed too. And sometime when I was working, it was " ; Oh I don' ; t read much article, but I never miss the obituary, and we depending on that." ; I said " ; Okay, how about other work I am doing?" ; But I think that was really important for the community. EL: And then after you left the Shimpo, where did you work after that? KK: Uhh, there was not, I plan it originally, so I was unemployed for a while, then one of the um professors, University of Chicago. He was Mr.--uh Dr. Fujita. He is the expert of the tornados. They called him Mr. Tornadoes. He ask me, if you can help me, my research? So I went to his office, and help him the research, put together the information, it wasn' ; t that hard, I did it for about 1 year, then only report to the place it' ; s, maybe twice a month, no--yeah, twice a month, and most of work I can do at home, so that was about 1 year, and after that? I start going to school, in City College in Washington, in downtown? And I was there for about half a year, one semester maybe? One semester, and law firm, the person I know, " ; Would you like to come and help us?" ; So I wasn' ; t really keen on it, I don' ; t know, what can I do? But I went there, and they have a Japanese department, so I work there for 10 month, and I still think it' ; s not my job, so uh I quit. At that time, Chamber of Commerce, Japanese Chamber of Commerce, it not far from the place, they ask me to come, I says " ; Okay" ; , I don' ; t know what kind of job, but I went there. And about two and a half years I worked there, but I still missing something, and um, I was still working there, then the JASC' ; s pres--not the president, the CEO and assistant CEO came to JAS--I mean JCCC, Chamber of Commerce, for monthly for meeting, CJAC meeting. And every month they come, I just prepare for the tea for them, and whatever they need the copy and things, and one day, Jean Fujiu, and Sharon Harada was there. She just come to me and whispered me, " ; Would you like to come to JASC?" ; I says, " ; Huh, maybe that' ; s community things." ; So I quit Chamber of Commerce and came to here. This 1999, May. EL: Had you been involved with JASC before that? KK: Not really, when I was working in Shimpo, the English section editor was the president of the board here, JASC, for I don' ; t know how many years, Arthur Morimitsu. And from that, with--through him, I know that activity is, and he always bring article, so I translate to Japanese and put them in Japanese section, so in a way I knew, but, and sometimes I take a picture and gave to them, so that was it. EL: So your, your family, you and your husband and your children, or maybe your husband' ; s family, had not been actively participating in activities at JASC? KK: Not much, maybe just one, Kenjinkai, the Wakayama Kenjinkais, they were a group, and run picnic or a New Year' ; s Party or something like that. [smiles] EL: So in all these years that you' ; ve worked here at JASC, what do you think are some of the most important ways in which JASC has served the community? KK: Those days, even now, number one, one thing is, I like it is because it' ; s community, I know the people, we used to work with the Shimpo, I can still meet here and connect with them, and it' ; s really important to keep legacy here in Chicago. And my husband' ; s family went to the camp and worked, come to Chicago, and working with a lot of other people at the hotels or restaurant or whatever. And I thought I have to keep these things here, and same time, Japanese culture, it' ; s important, and I' ; m honest with it, I start learning Japanese culture after I came to U.S. Before that, I never think about it. It' ; s there, and I never going too far to learn it, more--I think I can learn more in Japan, but which I didn' ; t. So after that, um, the JASC have those things and they are trying, I says this is a good place to work. EL: What do you enjoy most, about your work here? KK: People. [nodding] That--those days, Nisei, and a lot of Issei was still here, and I could see that history in each people. Each one different, but it' ; s whole thing in one big container! You know, and they are all, so nice! EL: As far as Japanese culture is concerned, within your own family, what were some of the aspects of Japanese culture that you wanted to pass on to your own children? KK: I don' ; t know I could do or not, but uh I don' ; t say that oh flower arrangement, or calligraphy, but one things I regret is the language, I didn' ; t teach them enough. Because I want to learn English first, so I tried talk to them in English. But, I think philosophy, they' ; re Japanese with, with the culture, the spirit, and manners, that kind of things I want them to know. EL: Do you think you' ; ve succeeded? KK: I don' ; t know, but sometime, I used to tell the kids when they do something, " ; You' ; re not supposed to do that" ; , and they say " ; Oh mom so and so does it" ; " ; I don' ; t know about so and so, but you are Kawaguchi, and Kawaguchi don' ; t do that." ; That' ; s, that' ; s what I tell them. EL: I think we need to start wrapping up, so I just have a few final questions. KK: Okay. EL: As someone who has been deeply involved in the Japanese American community for many years, what kind of changes have you seen in the community? KK: Changes, when I came here, the language here, there was a lot of Japanese still, it' ; s Meiji era language. Yeah that changed, but some Nisei and Sansei is, learn from the grandparents or parents still here, but the family is little bit more together in one bundle, each family used to be. Now it' ; s nuclear. Which is okay, and many Japanese have married to the same nationality, to Japanese-Japanese, but now it' ; s American, maybe they' ; re Caucasian, Black people, Spanish, and other Asians, Koreans, Chinese, pretty soon we are not talking about what your nationality is. So that' ; s a good things, then I hope even then I--I hope they keep up some Japanese heart in there. [laughs] EL: What direction would you like to see JASC go in, in the future? KK: Continue th-the way Japanese taking care of the seniors, we always respect the elderly, and their heart. Then um, I think Japanese, it doesn' ; t matter who you marry to, maybe get together a little bit more, because other nationalities like Chinese, Koreans, Filipino, they really keep up their cultures and family together, so if the young people could study a little bit more Japanese, because we missed in between because the war, so catch up a little bit. They can enjoy that culture. EL: What would you most like for future generations to know about you, and your life, and your husband' ; s life? KK: My life? [laughs] I don' ; t know, I was just so lucky, no matter where I go, came to this country, 14 days in a boat, and arrived in San Francisco, at cousin' ; s place and moved to Chicago, I went to flower design school, and start work in the flower shop, and all other place I go, I was so, lucky. Somebody always close to me and help me. So I stopped to think, I say, " ; Oh is that really, life' ; s that hard?" ; Maybe not, if people help me out, so I can help something, somebody, so that' ; s what, in the community is important. You have to have the feelings to each other and help. I was just really lucky. EL: You always come to work with a real sense of purpose. And you always have a smile for me, and for our coworkers, and I would like to know, how do you keep yourself motivated even when things are challenging? KK: No, I just like the people! [laughs] I like dogs too, but I like the people. Yeah, it' ; s so good to communicate, and touch with people. The pandemic has really hurt me, that part. But I' ; m sure that one year not going to change the people' ; s feelings, I miss them a lot. And uh, no, I just like the people. Because they--they smile at me. I' ; m always think about it, it' ; s, other side it' ; s a mirror, if I treat them good, they treat me good. And smile, the government not going to tax me! [laughs] It' ; s free. EL: I think that' ; s a wonderful note to end on, so thank you very much for participating in our oral history project. KK: You' ; re welcome, my pleasure. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1 ","Shin-Issei^^Sansei^^Terminal Island^^Wakayama^^Osaka^^Rohwer^^Edgewater Beach Hotel^^Chicago Shimpo^^Japanese American Service Committee",3000,,,,,,,"Kawaguchi, Kayoko (Kay)",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/83932e36ca7c0230368fe3a9fe08172b.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
454,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/454,"Koizumi, Edward (5/12/2021)",,"Edward Shinichi Koizumi is a shin-issei born in 1950 in Nambu, Yamanashi, Japan. Edward’s maternal grandmother and grandfather were separated during World War II, as Edward’s grandmother was traveling with her children to visit family in Japan at the time of Pearl Harbor. As a result, while Edward’s maternal grandfather was incarcerated at Manzanar, his family was unable to leave Japan. After the war, Edward’s mother, although she was an American citizen, was unable to return to the United States as she voted in a Japanese election. Edward and his siblings spent their early childhood on his family’s farm in Japan, but eventually, when Edward was four years old, his mother was allowed to move back to the United States. Edward’s family packed up, and moved to join his mother’s family in Chicago. Having a natural curiosity and talent for building and design, after graduating high school, he attended the Institute of Design at the Illinois Institute of Technology and worked as a model maker, building models for photographers and TV production. Given his personal experiences and those of his family, he hopes that others can learn from these experiences and foster an open-minded society where immigration and differences are welcome and celebrated. ",,,,2021-05-12,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KoizumiEdward20210512.xml," 5.4 5/12/2021 Koizumi, Edward (5/12/2021) 1:20:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kibei Nambu-cho Yamanashi-ken Manzanar McClurg Company Nichiren Buddhist Church Institute of Design Illinois Institute of Technology Koizumi, Edward Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|18(1)|34(11)|45(15)|56(10)|70(9)|81(5)|96(5)|117(3)|125(2)|138(5)|152(13)|167(6)|180(14)|194(1)|205(16)|220(4)|236(12)|248(4)|259(18)|271(3)|284(2)|297(13)|307(6)|317(9)|332(7)|342(3)|350(14)|360(7)|369(13)|379(13)|390(12)|402(11)|414(12)|425(4)|438(13)|449(5)|458(4)|470(3)|483(5)|496(2)|511(2)|525(2)|537(8)|547(5)|558(11)|569(6)|582(11)|592(14)|605(11)|616(8)|634(10)|648(2)|663(6)|675(1)|686(6)|699(4)|713(9)|727(2)|736(3)|750(8)|760(5)|769(14)|784(11)|795(5)|807(1)|816(1)|828(3)|837(8)|845(3)|858(8)|869(10)|885(2)|897(8)|905(14)|917(11)|927(5)|938(13)|948(13)|963(2)|973(9) 0 https://vimeo.com/551685115/4be1789505 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/551685115?h=4be1789505" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Edward Shinichi Koizumi is a shin-issei born in 1950 in Nambu, Yamanashi, Japan. Edward Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is May 12, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Edward Shinichi Koizumi. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. So let' ; s begin with just a little bit of background about you, and if you could please state your full name for me. Edward Koizumi (EK): Oh, my name is Edward Shinichi Koizumi. EL: Thank you, and what' ; s your year of birth? EK: Oh, uh born 1950. EL: Alright, and where were you born? EK: I was born in Nambu-cho, Yamanashi-ken, Japan. And this would have been the ancestral home of my maternal grandfather whom we' ; re talking about today. EL: Right, and how old were you when you first came to the U.S.? EK: Um, it was 1955, so I would have been four and a half. And just a little bit before starting kindergarten, kindergarten would have come about half a year later, and you know coming to America was quite a shock in that you know I think the first thing we did was start taking off our shoes as we entered the apartment in Chicago and my grandparents saying " ; Oh no, no in, in America we don' ; t have to take off our shoes." ; And I, we thought that was quite, quite a shock I thought. EL: And, I understand that your family' ; s journey to the U.S. actually began much earlier than your arrival, so could you tell me a little bit about the first people? EK: Actually it was great-- yeah, actually it was great-grandfather. His name was Bunjiro Koizumi, and he had come to the United States at the age of 21. And I couldn' ; t tell you what year it was, I, sorry I didn' ; t do the research there. But, he called for his son, which would have been my grandfather, Seiichi Koizumi and Seiichi came when he was 16-years-old and-- And this would have been the Seattle area. And you know there were various work for you know, immigrants. I remember him talking about working in a canning company, I think they were you know, canning salmon. And he was a young man so he would you know be up in the, you know near the top of the, of the mechanism, you know this, this big assembly-line machine. And he would be loading the, the empty cans on top. And so these empty cans would be coming down the chute and all these people would be very busily, you know packing the uh, the cans with, with fish. And then, you know one of the stories-- and he was, I think a bit of a devil, even as a, as a young man. He said every so often you know he would, rather than putting the cans in this way as he should, he' ; d see the people working below, working very hard and sweating, he said " ; Oh I' ; ll put the can in this way" ; and then this can would go down the chute and jam up the machine. (laughs) And, and then everybody got a 15-minute break while the engineers you know came out and they had to clear the machine. Anyway, that' ; s the kind of person that he was I think. (laughs) So, he did various kinds of work, um-- There was a lot of produce going-- a lot of, uh growing and so uh-- I' ; m not so sure he did that much farming he didn' ; t, you know say that much about that, but he was doing you know clerking, and working in grocery stores, even at one point he traveled and he was working at a railroad line and they said uh, one of the things that he did was to jump on the train as it left the station, and then he would work his way up to the, the lantern of this, of the, the steam engine clean it off, and then as soon as that was clean, he would jump off, and then he' ; d you know walk back to the station and so, so he said, " ; You know the faster you work the, the shorter a trip it was back to the station!" ; So I, I think he had quite a colorful career. EL: Was he in Seattle that whole period? EK: Uh he was, um until um-- Well let' ; s see. Well, when he was 20 he went back to, to J- to Japan, and my older sister June was saying that there was a change in the law which would have made it more difficult for, for immigrants to bring people over, your family members over. So they, they learned about that so he thought that was a good opportunity to get married, so he went back to the old village and, and he married a uh, a woman that he had known previously. Um, and then, then he went back to America, to, to work some more and to make enough money so that he could bring his wife over, and so she came over, and-- So I guess she would have been 20. Um, I asked my grandmother, her name would be Rei Koizumi, her maiden name was Sano, if she was afraid of coming to, you know, a new country without you know, knowing the language, and she said, " ; No" ; . And I was, really quite surprised that uh, that she was so adventurous and bold like that, and but I think maybe that was, you know her personality. And, and I think for people who are immigrants to the United States, you know they wanted something better for themselves. Um, now I was born, coincidentally I was born in the same uh house, that he had lived in, and uh-- And you know the area is rural, it' ; s a, it' ; s a mountain valley, and people were, you know, subsistence farmers. You know they grew rice and they grew vegetables for themselves, and there wasn' ; t a whole lot of spending money, you know there wasn' ; t any cash crops, so you know I think a lot of the adventuresome people you know, wanted something better for themselves and decided to, to head off. And America was the um, you know the place of opportunity then. EL: Do you know if your grandparents or your great-grandfather lived near other Japanese immigrant families? EK: There must have been because I think a lot of immigrants, you know they' ; re fortunate enough to, um you know have the community of, of people from their-- you know, of their own nationality. Although he was very early on, probably would have been in, in the earliest peoples. So, you know, I-- that I do not know and, you know unfortunately at this point, there' ; s no one left to ask you know a lot of these questions that we might have! And you know when I was younger well, you know these weren' ; t questions that I had. I pretty much you know took for granted that you know here we were you know in this country and uh, you know, a-and living f-fairly well. And hadn' ; t really appreciated the hard work and the, you know and perhaps the prejudices that they had to work through to get to you know where we were then. EL: So we have your great-grandfather, comes to the U.S. then calls his son over, EK: That' ; s right. EL: --and that would be your grandfather who then returned to Japan to find a wife, t-to marry someone actually he knew before. Then he comes back to the U.S. and then she follows once there' ; s enough money. EK: That' ; s correct, yeah, a little while later yeah. EL: And then could you fill in a little bit of what happened after that? EK: Okay so this was still in Seattle, um-- I think it was about, oh maybe 10, 12 years later that, that Grandfather' ; s father Bunjiro decides to go back to Japan. And he goes back to Japan permanently. And at this point the young couple moves down to the Los Angeles area, and I don' ; t know when, you know, the children came along, but uh, their first, you know their, the eldest, their, their daughter, named Lily Hisae sh- she came along first and then came Herbert Shuichi and then the youngest was Wood Masao Koizumi and, and then Grandfather got into the uh, the produce business, being a greengrocer. He would drive his truck to the various growers in the area, you know load up his truck and then bring it down to his market and then he would display them and you know people would come and um, you know and buy the goods. I think he had a number of different stores, you know, you know not simultaneously but he would start-- you know he would start simply and the first store seemed more like a stall and then I think he had a few, and then by the time 1945 came along he-- it was, or, ' ; 41, it was a fairly large store that he had had. EL: Do you know what the name of his store was? EK: It had a number of different names because he would you know buy, buy one and then he' ; d sell that and buy, you know, and then upgrade. And, well one of the, the store names was called Sam' ; s and, and you know h-he di-- he wouldn' ; t bother to change the sign, I mean why, you know, why waste the money to change the sign, and then people started calling him Sam ' ; cuz, you know, he was the owner, and so he decided, ' ; Well Sam' ; s a good name' ; (laughs) and so I think that' ; s how he, he got his American name. And, you know I guess our family tended to uh, adopt American names just to make it simpler, you know, for us to navigate. So he became Sam. I don' ; t believe my grandmother ever took a American name though she was always Rei. Um, but you know the uh, the children had American names. Uh-- EL: So then, what happened in 1941 or leading up to 1941? EK: Well you know, when, well shortly before, well before Pearl Harbor, my grandmother had taken the, the three children back to the old village in Japan. I' ; ve heard a couple of different versions of this. I thought they were just to visit family, but they were there a number of months so-- I, I don' ; t know if you know some people had an inkling that there would be trouble ahead so, I thought you know this would have been a very, you know difficult decision but, you know to, t-to split up the family. But Grandmother, you know, took the three children you know back to Japan, and Grandfather stayed in Los Angeles. I think they were living in Santa Monica at the time but his business was in Los Angeles. You know, to continue you know minding his business. And then you know Pearl Harbor was struck and that pretty much closed the Pacific and, and so the family was separated for you know those years of the, of the war. EL: And then what happened to your grandfather? EK: Well Grandfather would' ; ve had to liquidate the business he didn' ; t say if he got much money for that, but he ended up in Manzanar, which is in the s-, you know, southern part of California. And I guess a lot of people from the Los Angeles-Seattle area were put into that particular camp. You know there were, you know I guess 10 camps altogether. So, he was pretty much there during, you know, for the duration. EL: Is that, a period of his life that he talked about much when you were growing up? EK: Uh, just a few stories, I knew that he had learned woodworking there, since the um... I, I guess the folks were saying, you know the men were saying, " ; Well since we' ; re going to have to be here, you know, is there something that we could learn, and something that would be useful?" ; And so a woodshop was set up for them, and, and I' ; ve got a picture of my grandfather, you know, learning wood- woodworking. Because I think this was something different that he had not had much exposure to and this is a-- (grabs photograph) a photograph that always hung in his workshop. (*Refers to off camera) Do you have that Maria? So you know the men are standing in front of various machines, about a dozen of them and actually, I r-- this, here' ; s my grandfather here. And this man here standing right next to him I believe that' ; s Mr. Kondo who was a family friend whom we knew in Chicago. So you know this is in California so a number of the, the people would have traveled Eastward after, after the war. EL: Do you know if during that time while he was incarcerated and his wife and children were in Japan, were they able to communicate with each other at all? EK: They w-, yeah they, they were able to write letters, and, and I have a few of those letters. And, and you know some of those are, you know have black marks on there. And they had been opened, and there would be a sticker on the envelope saying censored by you know, the, the war department and so-- You know, any correspondence going back and forth you know would be looked at, you know, by the government. EL: And then eventually, as he left Manzanar, do you know when and how he left? EK: He left a few months before war' ; s end, and I guess they were sp-- People who were given special grants to, to leave the camp. And-- as long as they would be going East rather than, you know to, you know t-to the West. So, so he chose Chicago, I don' ; t know why Chicago, but there was a, a Japanese Americans living there then. And so you know they may, they may have suggested that he come there. And so he had to start over again, and there was a, a man named Mr. Okuhara who, I believe worked with him at the um, at the uh, the farmers market in Santa Monica. Where-- --And so these two men got together and pooled their money, and they were able to buy an apartment building. And you know, this would have been important for Japanese Americans because they were coming displaced, and they were coming East and they needed a place to stay and they were still, you know they were you know suffering some discrimination. So this would have been a safe place for them to have an apartment. And then my grandfather, you know this became his second career, becoming a landlord. So he had this building-- So in 1955 when, you know my family, you know came to Chicago he was living on LaSalle Street and that was another building that he had bought. So at this point he had one, and he had one on his ow-- by himself, and then you know the others he, you know he half-owned with Mr. Okuhara. EL: Do you know the locations, or the addresses of those properties? EK: The um, well, yeah when my, when my grandfather first came to Chicago, he was living in apartments on the Southside, and that was an enclave of Japanese Americans living there. But then the area that we you know, call Little Tokyo at the time was centered around like Clark Street and Division, and so his first building you know with Mr. Okuhara was like I want to say about 1200 North on Clark Street. And then the, the building that, that he lived in was at 1244 LaSalle Street so that would have been just a little North of Division. EL: Thank you. So let' ; s shift over to Japan for a little bit, EK: Mhmm EL: And, how much do you know about your grandmother' ; s experience with her children during the war? EK: The, well there was suffering there in, in Japan. You know Japan had started this thing and they thought they would win it but you know-- Well you know, hindsight being 20-20 how could, you know how could a small country like Japan compete against the United States with you know, all the manpower and, and, and all the resources that it had. And if you, you know, anger a, a country like that oh boy you know you' ; re really in for it. But the Japanese government, you know the Japanese people fought the best they could. So they continued farming, and luckily they were in a farming area as opposed to the cities. Now the people in the cities, you know they didn' ; t grow their own food so they were quite dependent on, on the government or you know on, on capitalism to have any, even, you know things to eat. So anyway, the farmers were a little bit luckier in that, you know they were able to grow their own food, although you know the problem was is that the Japanese government would confiscate the rice that, they that they grew. And, and then rice would be rationed back to them. Now, you know Japanese love fresh rice and especially farmers, and, and the rice that would be rationed back to them would be you know, old rice. So you know, they were, you know growing a new rice and then having that taken away from them. And then you know, they get old rice back. And then you know there would be relatives coming from the cities, and they would expect to be you know entertained and fed. And, then, you know before they left back into the city they would say, " ; Oh, oh by the way you know our family in, back in the city, you know we' ; re, we' ; re very hungry. Could you, you know, could you gift us with some food?" ; And then, you know the, the, the uncle would you know produce a big wrapping sack, you know furoshiki cloth and of course the family would have to you know put food in there and then he would tie it up and then thank them very much and then he' ; d go back to the city. And, you know, there was a lot of suffering on that side. I had known, I had known Iva Toguri who had, had troubles in, in Tokyo. And, and I could see how people in the cities would, you know would be very much, you know in duress because of lack of food and you know, and, and maybe the lack of support of the families close by. EL: How old were the children at that point in time, do you know roughly? EK: They were grade school, my, my mother would have been in high school and, and what' ; s, what' ; s hard for the, that the kids, is that now they' ; re American citizens right because they' ; re born in, in America. And so they would be singled out as Americans, and you know as being part of the enemy. Now my, let' ; s see my, my mother would be in high school, and, and-- You know and when they started school in Japan and they had to go, you know go to school, they would have been put back a grade or two because their Japanese and their, their writing would not be up to, up to par with their, with their age group. And so that, that must have been difficult for them too. EL: Did they talk about that much? EK: No, but I' ; ve seen photographs of them. And, oh I don' ; t know if, they, they, they, you know these old black-and-white photographs they look sad. (laughs) You know it, it, they to contrast that with the photographs of them taken in, in Santa Monica in Los Angeles when they were doing, you know when they, when they were prospering, you know in standing in front of their car, you know in nice clothing, smiling. And then you know a photograph that I, you know that I might see, in Ja-- you know from th-- of them in Japan, in their country clothes. And you know, these, these photographs would have been um, you know rather expensive to have so they were-- There' ; s not that many of them but, you know, it, it looks, it looks, it looks hard. EL: And, and then what happened as the war came to an end, to the piece of the family that was in Japan? EK: Well, at war' ; s end of course you know Grandmother would want to bring the family back together again. So she made arrangements to, you know to, to, to go back. But it turns out that my, you know their, their oldest daughter had voted in a Japanese election, and-- And this was new, you know to, for, for a woman to be able to vote in a Japanese election and it would have been the influence of the, of the U.S. occupying forces. And so when, women were allowed to vote there was a lot of excitement, you know and, and it could be that my, that my mother was kind of caught up in that excitement and she unwittingly voted. Now, what she didn' ; t know was that as a U.S. citizen she should not have voted in a Japanese election. So, you know, when the government found out that she had done this, well then she was barred from going back to the U.S. So, so, so what could Grandmother do? You know what could her mother do? So she sent the sons back, and she had to stay back to be with her daughter. And, well, now she would have been about 18 or so, so she would have been a marriageable age. So that would have been the solution, so she, she cast her net to find an eligible young man to marry her. Now that' ; s difficult, ' ; cause after the war there' ; s so many, so many young men were killed. And um-- But what happened coincidentally with the man who would become my father, he had been fighting in Sumatra and he was a, a Signal Corpsman for the Imperial Army which meant that he would not be in, in the front lines. He would have been b-behind the front lines and the Signal Corpsman were very valued because, you know without them you, you can' ; t send radio transmissions and, and such. And he especially knew the codes you know he knew the Morse codes and the encryption codes for the transmissions so-- He told me afterwards that well you know there was some suff- there was suffering of course in, in, all the, the Japanese units, but he said luckily he didn' ; t get the worst of it. He was taken prisoner by the, by the British forces at the war' ; s end, and what I found out later is that he was stuck in Sumatra for two years even after the war. The Japanese government could not, you know they didn' ; t have the resources to bring back you know to repatriate their soldiers that were stranded you know in these various places so-- So about two years later they finally you know got a ship-- [recording paused and restarted] EL: Okay so let' ; s pick back up with after the war, and your grandmother seeking a suitable husband for her daughter who couldn' ; t return to the United States. EK: Yeah, that' ; s right my, yeah my mother had voted in an election and, and that caused her to be barred from returning to the United States to rejoin her, her father. So, so my grandmother, or her mother would have to-- So she decided that she would have to find a, a suitable husband for her daughter so that she herself could return back to the United States so-- So she must have contacted all the people that she knew in the area, you know could there be a uh, you know for a, a suitable young man. And of course this was difficult right after the war because so many young men had been killed, but what had happened with my, with the man who would become my father, he had been fighting in Sumatra you know as a Signal Corpsman and-- But then at the, at war' ; s end, they surrendered to the British forces there, but the Japanese government could not repatriate the stranded soldiers and so they had to bide their time there for, oh maybe a couple of years. And finally, a ship was sent to, to bring them back to Japan. So you know he goes back to Tokyo where he had, had a job, but Tokyo had been bombed out so then he went back to the old village. Now his old village was a neighboring village to where my grandfather' ; s home was. So he, so, so when he returned, it was a-- It was the match that my, you know that, that my grandmother was looking for. And so, what' ; s key here is that my father was the second born son of his family. Now the first born son you know his older brother, would have the, he would inherit the farm so he would inherit you know the, the fortune of the family you know, a-- but also you know would be the, the responsibility of taking care of the elderly parents. But then that left the second born son to seek his own fortune and to make his own way in the world. So this was advantageous for him too, in that you know he had very little but the, but the, the bargain that was struck was that he would now you know, marry the eldest daughter, I mean the, the oldest child, the, the daughter. But you know she was the eldest child, but then he would assume the position of the eldest son of the family. And he would change his name, he would change his name from Mochizuki, which was his name, to Koizumi. And, and then he and his new wife would move into the, the farmhouse and start a life there. And he didn' ; t know that much about farming, so he had to learn and the Koizumi clan helped them, you know learn about farming, and he worked hard, and, and then the, and then they started having children. My older sister June was born, she was named Harumi at the time, you know she took on the name June afterwards so, probably because she was born in June. And then I came along, my name was Shinichi, I didn' ; t take on Edward until we came to America, and then Michiko was the youngest and her name you know would be Grace. And so you know we lived in, and so I grew up on a farm and it was actually you know rather idyllic I thought you know we just play in the fields and the streams and there wasn' ; t, you know we were too young for chores. You know that would come later I suppose. But then, the U.S. government relented and, and there were a number of I think Japanese Americans who had lost their way back to you know Japane-- I mean American citizen Japanese people who lost their way, not being able to you know go back to America. And so a lot of these people were then allowed to come back. And so this would have been 1955 that you know my parents affairs were cleared up and, and then we all came. You know for, for my father that must have been you know quite, quite a challenge because he didn' ; t speak English, and you know truthfully you never did learn English that well. But you know, he was able to do well in this country and, and, an-and I think it was a, I think was a good bargain that he had struck and it was actually a, a good marriage. And you know they, they, they stayed together until my mother died at 85. And he would continue on till ninety-- till 98-- Anyway-- EL: Do you remember, you were quite a young child when you left Japan and came to the United States, do you remember how you felt at that age? EK: Um, I think I must have been totally clueless. (laughs) Because, you know it seemed like one day I was playing with my, with my cousins and I must not have been-- I, I don' ; t remember people bustling around, packing things and my, my older sister June was a year-and-a-half older, remembers that, you know there was a lot of sadness but... I was a little boy, I was 4 and I just remember being packed into a car and that was, that was a new experience for me being packed in a car. And I was you know, looking at the car and people were saying goodbyes I suppose, and, and then the next thing I know you know we' ; re in, we' ; re being taken to Tokyo. And I remember being on the tarmac of the airport, seeing the big engines of the, of the plane that we were going to take off in, you know revving up and the smoke coming out and I was just fascinated by that. But the thought that you know, I might not see you know, my, my, the family members that we left in Chic-- in, in Japan that did not occur to me. And so I think I just took things as they came. EL: What are some of your strongest memories of that childhood on the farm? EK: I th-- I think a lot of people have asked me you know, what do I remember? And for, you know I think for kids who have, you know been in the same house for their entire childhood you know it might be a, a big blur but you know there was quite a difference between you know the, the mountain valley in Japan, you know to Chicago so I do remember a lot of things. I think the earliest memory was me laying you know on the tatami, looking up at the ceiling, and there was a skylight and it was raining. And I hear the sound of the, the rain falling on the tin roof. We had a tin roof on our farmhouse, you know a lot of the houses along there had, had thatched roofs. And so after a big rain you know I would see the, the men on ladders you know trying to fix the, you know the holes, you know rearrange the thatch you know where the water had gotten in. I remember my parents taking us kids across a rickety bridge to the mountains, you know to collect mushrooms and to, you know we had a field of um-- I think we had a stand of bamboo there too. And my father would j-- I was too small you know to walk, so he would just throw me into a basket that he had on his back. So I would ride like that. My older sister, to this day she has a terrible-- She' ; s, she' ; s truly quite frightened by heights. And that was because you know she had to walk on the, the suspension bridge. And you know a number of the boards of the suspension bridge were broken so you know you could see the water rushing underneath and so she had to hop from board-to-board you know, you know, with my, taking my, my mother' ; s hand of course but-- I' ; m sure that early experience just, just terrorized her to heights. I remember playing with my cousins, you know in the farms playing with crabs that were you know in the, in the riverbeds. Well, you know it was good times I thought. EL: And then what do you remember about your arrival here in Chicago? Where did you live initially? EK: So we, our, our plane touched down in Midway, Midway you know O' ; Hare was not built yet. And so Midway at the, you know in the 50s and 60s was known as the busiest airport you know in the world. And, you know which is kind of funny you know ' ; cause we think of Midway as kind of a, a postage stamp airplan-- airport in the middle of the, you know of the city right now. But, so you know we landed, and, and this would have been a four-engine Constellation you know airplane you know. So you know a big plane that would, you know drone on and on and on. I remember the, the trip across the Pacific was just ocean and ocean and then all of a sudden, well actually we touched down in San Francisco. And, and I don' ; t remember the layover I, I remember having ice cream for the first time. And then we got on another airplane, I think the first one was Pan Am the second was Northwest Orient and, and then we came to, to Chicago. My grandfather picked us up, and he drove a Chevy Station Wagon, 1955 Bel Air. And it was, I think it was brand new at the time, so I was quite, you know quite impressed that you know that, that grandfather had, had his own car. So then he brought us to the apartment building at 1244 LaSalle Street, and the first few nights you know we stayed in their, in their apartment, it was pretty cramped. But then, my grandfather opened up a unit for us in an adjoining-- There were, there were these two buildings that were joined together through a hallway. And so we had a unit in, in that, in the next building and so, you know we started school at that point, you know living there. And you know we didn' ; t move to another building at 1332 till I think till I was seven or so. And that was an interesting building, it had been a converted mansion. But you know, during the war, there was a housing shortage so a lot of these buildings, a lot of these single-family buildings had been chopped up into small rooming-- rooming apartments. And so this is what happened to this building you know when my grandfather bought it. And it was a rambling old house and it must have been quite handsome at the time. But you know there was a Japanese person living in the parlor and then a person living across in the, you know maybe it may have been the, the drawing room. And then another person living you know in another, a room behind that. Now we had like four rooms in the back of the building and we also had a yard so you know it was lucky for us kids that we had a yard. But there were you know, there were units in the basement next to the coal room. There was, I remember a Mexican man lived there and he would have friends over, and he would invite me down, down there. You know they played the, you know they played guitar and sing and it was y' ; know quite a nice time. There were people on the second and the third floor, the third floor would have been maid' ; s quarters at one point, but there were units up there and people were living there. It was quite a lively, it was quite a lively building. I remember an old fellow named the Mr. Papan, was a Hungarian man he wanted to talk with his brother in, back in the old country. So the phone was in the, in the hallway just outside our bedroom and he was hard of hearing, and his brother was very hard of hearing, and so they would talk for about an hour in, in Hungarian, and we didn' ; t understand what he was saying but it was very loud. (laughs) And that was kind of like the childhood we had. EL: In a building like that where it was at one time a single-family home, a, a mansion chopped up into smaller units, how, how did the kitchen facilities and the bathroom facilities work were those all shared? EK: What had happened with this building was that you know there, there would be these rooms but then another wall would be erected a few feet away from one wall and then archways cut into the wall, and then this became a hallway, and then there was a bathroom at the end of the hall, so each of the floors had-- You know all the tenants of a floor would share a bathroom. And of course if the bathroom here on the first floor was, was busy, well then you could run upstairs and you know use an-another bathroom. And of course you know, the, the, the, the tub would be there too, so you didn' ; t really want to hog all the time you know taking a leisurely bath when other people wanted to use the bathroom or wanted to take a bath. There would have been a refrigerator in the middle of the hallway for the people of that floor to use. You know, which, which made for some interesting times because there was a fellow who had bought a dozen eggs, and the, the eggs were missing. And so he started knocking on the doors of his neighbors and say " ; You know, have you seen my eggs?" ; and the fella came to the door and he had a skillet with fried eggs in it. And he says " ; Oh, hello?" ; (laughs) Well, he found out where his eggs went. Cooking facilities you asked, would have been a hot plate. Would have been a gas hot plate, which would have been like a cast-iron arrangement where there' ; d be two burners you know on a grate. And that would be on top of a t-- on the top of a table. And a lot of these rooms would be piped for a sink so you know you' ; re pretty well complete except for the bathroom and, and the refrigerator you know within your room. And so you know we call these single room occupancy you know hotels I guess. EL: And your parents raised you and your siblings in that arrangement until approximately what age? EK: Well you know, we, we actually had a kitchen, and so my mother had her own stove and refrigerator, and so I guess we were lucky. EL: And it sounds like that building in particular had quite a diverse occupancy. EK: Yes. EL: So outside of your, your home life, did your family socialize with a lot of other Japanese or Japanese American families? EK: Yeah, we were, we were members of the Nichiren Buddhist Church, so that would have been o-our family' ; s--well, our family' ; s social life. I didn' ; t-- my sisters and I didn' ; t have a lot of American friends outside the family and so we went to Sunday school with the other you know, Japanese kids and so-- You know so that was Sun- that was Sundays. I don' ; t recall you know birthday parties and that sort of stuff you know we didn' ; t do very much of that. Every so often my parents' ; friends would come over and, and they would visit. You know not a lot of partying, my parents were not that, you know big on parties. EL: What kind of work did your parents do? EK: Well, my mother was a you know mother and housewife of course. My father, well he would have to do something to support the family, and so there was a company called the McClurg Company and I didn' ; t really-- you know it' ; s ' ; cause we didn' ; t know the word McClurg because my father always pronounced it " ; Ma-ku-ra-gu" ; . So he went to " ; Makuragu" ; company and what they did was, it was, it was a mail-order house. And so the foreman there I believe was Japanese so-- And the bosses were very happy to have Japanese men. I don' ; t know if too many women worked there, but I never asked but you know the Japanese workers were studious, and they, and they worked hard. So-- and you know, and so they were happy to employ Japanese. And so, so my father would pack a lunch, and uh- well actually my mother would pack his lunch. My mother would pack a lot of lunches for us kids too when we started going to school. So he would go to work on the bus, and, and hi- and his job would be to take the merchandise that was put on a tray and then he would wrap them in the newspapers, put them in a box, and, you know and then get the next tray and pack that. And for that he got $0.95 an hour. And that was, you know that went on for a little while, and then, and then he happily said, " ; Oh I just got a raise, I' ; m now getting a dollar an hour!" ; And so-- But, there was an opportunity for him to learn a skill, and, and so he became a silkscreen printer. And silkscreen printing, you know people think of silkscreen printing for artwork, but back then silkscreen printing could be used for making nameplates, and for making printer circuit boards. And, and that was pretty precise work and my father was very good at, at precise things he had very you know, skilled hands. So he would spend his days you know taking-- the boards that, that printer circuit boards started out as, you know there would be a piece of fiberglass or a piece of plastic and then there would be copper either one-sided or two-sided, and then that would be put down on a board and then the s-silkscreen will be laid on top and the silkscreen would have a pattern on it and then we' ; d take a, a black ink and then with a rubber squeegee, squeegee that pattern onto the, the copper clad. And then the copper clad board would be baked and then put into acid, and then the, the parts that did not have the, the black resist ink on it would be eaten away. And then the boards would be chopped into squares, and then all the holes would be drilled, and then that would become you know, the, the board for which you know electrical components would be soldered on. So this was actually a very good skill for him to have and he was able to do that until he retired at the age of 65. And then by this time, shortly afterwards, you know the, the company that, that he had worked for all these many years, went out of business because so much of the, you know so much of this assembly work was being you know, you know shipped off overseas. But he was lucky in that, he, he-- maybe just a dozen other employees of that company qualified for a pension. You know for, you know, having worked for that long. And so the pension wasn' ; t that much, but it was a couple hundred dollars a month, but he lived till 98. So from sixty, from si- age 65 to 98, he collected that 200, 250 dollars a month, and you know he was very well pleased for that. EL: So during that period as your parents were establishing themselves, what was the experience like for you as, as children? Did you speak English when you arrived here? EK: No we spoke very little (laughs) we spoke no English at all. Um, well after we got to America and this would have been in October of ' ; 55 I would have started, I think I started the next year, probably spring. Without knowing any English at all. And so everything was just, just confusing. I didn' ; t know what people were saying. I didn' ; t know what I was supposed to do. All, all I knew was I was really good at making things out of clay. You know one time my, my, my teacher gave me a pencil because I had made a really nice clay little car. First grade though, there was a Japanese female teacher named Mrs. Wada. And so that helped, but you know, I remember spending a lot of time sitting next to her while she played piano crying ' ; cause I didn' ; t know what was going on. I think you know, it, it was tough. For, I think it was tough for, I think it was tougher for my older sister ' ; cause she went right into first grade you know she didn' ; t have kindergarten. But I think you know two or three years later we were speaking English and being able to write and, and actually I think we were doing actually better than you know some of the other immigrant kids who were struggling with their English. And we, we actually did very well in school after that. EL: Are there particular places, or people, or maybe annual events from your childhood that really stick out in your memory? EK: Well Grandfather would take us out to, well he, you know he, I think my grandparents were still country you know people at heart. So every so often he would pack us up in, in his station wagon. And of course you know everybody is sitting and me and Mr. Kondo from, you know from, from before. We would be laying on our backs in the back of the station wagon you know while the rest of the family was sitting in front kind of cramped up. And then he would take us to, to the Indiana area, kind of an undeveloped area because they loved mushrooms, and they loved picking ferns. There were these, these ferns that reminded them very much of the ones that grew in the mountainside of Japan. So then we would spend a little bit of time picking and filling the bags of the fern. And then my grandmother would bring them back and dry them and then she would, you know, put them in soup and, and then use them for cooking. So, so that was something that we looked forward to. My grandpa liked to go fishing, and actually he might have gotten this, the love of fishing from, from his time at, at Manzanar camp. I didn' ; t know this, but this was something of a thing that the men did at Manzanar, was they would sneak out at night, and they would have to avoid the searchlights and, and hide when the searchlights were you know circling around. But then they would find themselves to the stream and then they would, um, they would fish and then come back and so this was maybe a little bit of rebellion that they indulged themselves in. And, you know and luckily they didn' ; t get caught. So fishing was something that they liked to do. You know Grandmother was always, you know she was famous for her chicken teriyaki and so she' ; d always make a very nice picnic for us. And then there would be the, the holidays at the church, I was not a very good student of Buddhism, but you know when the holidays came along well you know I was very happy to eat the food and, and to do the dances and to celebrate, why not? (smiles) EL: You had mentioned earlier about your mother packing lunches for your dad and you as children. EK: Mhmm. EL: What kinds of food did she pack for you? EK: Well let' ; s see, well they were I guess what you' ; d call American lunches I suppose, it was, you know it was easy. It would be, you know for each and that would have been you know for Father and, and me and my sisters. It' ; d be you know in a brown sack, it would be a, a sandwich wrapped up in, in, in wax paper. It would be two slices of white bread with mayonnaise and either a slice you know, and only one slice of either bologna or, or ham or it might be cheese, but just one slice because you know of course you know she thought that well it comes in the package and its sliced so this one slice must be a, you know, must be a helping. And then there might be a piece of lettuce. And then there would be a, a fruit, it' ; d be a banana, or an apple, or an orange. And then if you' ; re lucky you know there might be a candy bar or a piece of cake or something like that. And so she must have made thousands of these lunches you know for, you know ' ; cause I, you know there were four, you know there were four kids and, you know and my father. EL: And at home for your family meals, what kind of food did you eat then? EK: Well, I think you know there was, there were like seven things that my mother made for dinner, and I can' ; t remember what they all were, I just remember that there was, one of the dishes was, it was a bell pepper that she would cook with ground be--beef inside. And that was probably my, I don' ; t know why I remember that one ' ; cause that was my least favorite dish. (laughs) There was always rice. You know e-, you know even if we had Thanksgiving and my grandmother put together a, a nice Thanksgiving feast with the turkey, and gravy, and mashed potatoes and all that there would have to be rice. You know of course you had to have rice. But back home, my mother would either fry chicken or, or pork. I remember she cooked pork, well you' ; re supposed to cook pork you know very much back in those days. And it would be, you know, as hard as cardboard but you know I liked meat so that was fine. EL: And what language did you speak at home? EK: You know we spoke Japanese early on, but little by little you know as, you know as us kids were getting more proficient with English and we were starting to speak English amongst ourselves and of course English you know at school with my friends. And my mother spoke English, because you know she, you know she was uh, she was born in America. You know we started you know, gradually losing our Japanese. The only time I would speak Japanese would be to our grandparents and to my-- our father and my mother of course and-- But little by little as we went along you know we, you know my Japanese is really terrible now. Although it' ; s probably better than my older sister' ; s, because my older sister moved to New York City, she became a doctor, and so she didn' ; t have much chance to practice her Japanese until-- you know unless you know the one week that she came back to Chicago to visit during the holidays. Yeah, you know I' ; m, I' ; m kind of sad about that, and we did go to Japanese school on Saturdays, but once again I was not a very good student of Japanese and, you know I' ; ve kind of lost that facility too. EL: Do you remember if your family ever frequented Japanese-owned stores or Japanese American owned stores? Grocery stores or-- EK: Uh, yes we did. You know we visited Toguri' ; s of course. You know if there were Japanese goods that you wanted to buy well that, you know Toguri' ; s was the place to go. I had briefly dated Patty, who was the, who was uh, Iva' ; s niece, I guess I' ; d call her Aunt Iva at the time. And then there was Aiko' ; s papers for origami papers. Umm but I guess we didn' ; t do that much shopping. No, we went to Star Market and you know for, for Japanese food, Toguri' ; s also. And it was a handful of other Japanese food markets on the North side of Chicago. And you know and little by little they, you know they either went farther north or they' ; d gone out of business. You know with Japanese kinda leaving you know the, the centralized area and you know marrying off and you know going away. I guess we never did have a, you know as closely knit an area like Chinatown you know the Chinese people there. But Little Tokyo kind of like fell apart at one point. EL: Did you have an awareness as you were growing up of, the history of incarceration of Japanese American people and then the resettlement history here as a child, is-- was it, were you even aware that there was this -- EK: I can' ; t say that I was aware. Every so often you know a-at church or you know I would hear adults talking about you know, about the early days and you know if, if a couple was asked you know, " ; Well, how did you meet?" ; well, quite often they would say, " ; We, we met at camp." ; And that word " ; Camp" ; it, it sounded kind of benign and you know maybe even fun who knows I don' ; t know what camp was. I hadn' ; t realized that camp was, you know, concentration camp. So those are things that the older people kind of shielded from us. And you know and, and I suppose we should be grateful for that, that you know we were kind of spared some of those details. EL: Was it, was it ever brought up in, in a school context? EK: Uh, I don' ; t remember. I don' ; t remember that subject coming up you know even in high school U.S. history. EL: And do you recall any incidents of bias or discrimination against you or your family members? EK: There might have been toward the, at the beginning because you know I would have been going to school in 1956 which was not that much removed from the end of the war. But, I think, I learned pretty early to keep my head down, and t-to stay away from the bullies. And, you know to make friends, and especially if you have you know big, tall, strong friends. That' ; s, that, that' ; s a good thing for a small person like myself. I can' ; t really say that I had suffered that greatly you know with discrimination and for that I' ; m grateful. EL: Could you maybe describe for me, what it was like being part of a Japanese American community in Chicago in the 60s, 70s, maybe even into the 80s? EK: I' ; m not so sure that I was that personally involved. I remember in high school a lot of... Well, I went to Lane Tech High School, and there were a lot of Japanese American kids there, you know boys, ' ; cause it was all boys then. And there were, you know there was this clique of Japanese American boys. I was not part of that. You know, not that I was not-- you know, that they were unfriendly to me or anything like that, but, I had gone out for ROTC, and you know, my friends were, you know, my, my fellow you know ROTC cadets. And so, I, I can' ; t say that I really palled around with Japanese Americans that much. There was a boy who lived in my neighborhood, and you know his father was a doctor. And, so I played with him. He was very good at chess. And, so David would beat me at chess, and then we' ; d go bowling and I would beat him in bowling. And so that was kind of like, you know the, the friendship that I had with him. EL: Did you belong to any, any clubs or social groups? EK: No, not really. I was too busy I guess being a student, yeah. EL: Was your identity something you thought about a whole lot as a teenager? EK: You know it' ; s funny because there' ; s you know, like I was talking about you know the, the boys at, at, in high school. Maybe they were more aware of being Japanese Americans. And, and these would have been boys who were born in America. Now, I was born in Japan, and so, I spent more of my effort trying to become more American. And so, I don' ; t know, I don' ; t know if I ever thought that much about being Japanese except for the fact that in the, in my core I am Japanese. You know I look Japanese. And you know maybe a lot of the, and, and, and, and I' ; m sure that I am, but you know I, I try to be, you know, more open, you know, to, to everybody. EK: As you entered into adulthood and now perhaps in retirement, looking back, do you think your relationship with your identity has changed over time? EL: I don' ; t know, I guess I' ; m always me. (laughs) I remember when I, when I, when I met my, when I met my, my fiancée' ; s parents. And we had gone to, they live in Holland, Michigan and my wife is half Dutch. When, I guess I was described to them previous, before you know I, I actually met them, you know, they, they learned that I was Japanese so they thought that I would be kind of a, a reserved, Japanese man. And then when I showed up and I was you know, talkative and friendly, they thought, " ; Oh, well Ed' ; s a regular guy!" ; And so, I thought that was good. So that-- we had a, we had a very wonderful relationship, you know, my, my in-laws and myself. I learned to come whenever we, we visited in, in their house in, in Michigan that I' ; ll bring a toolbox, because Carol' ; s dad was pretty hopeless with tools. But they would like, have a running list of things that was wrong with their house so that when I came, they said, " ; Okay, could you fix this thing here, and you could fix that thing there, and we' ; re trying to install this telephone there." ; And they, they, they kept me busy but you know I enjoyed, I enjoy doing these things and, and I loved them very much. EL: Could you explain a little bit maybe about how you came to have those types of skills? EK: I think maybe I, I, I had a, a natural interest in these things. You know if you go back to the, the farmhouse my, my father had the, the engine, the gas engine that, that ran the threshing machine. Now the threshing machine was a, kinda like a metal box that had these wire whisks and it had a big pulley on the side, and then the, the gas engine was put a few feet away from it with a big flat belt going back and forth. And you know, it was an open belt, and so I was warned to stay away from that, that looked pretty scary. But that was just fascinating to me you know, these mechanical things were just fascinating. And so, so when we, we moved to America, into that apartment building my grandfather had a, a workshop in the basement. And so anytime he forgot to padlock that door, I would be in there, and I' ; d be exploring and getting into his stuff. I would find a piece of wood and a saw and I' ; d start sawing and making things. I think, I remember making a yo-yo for myself. Duncan yo-yos were very popular, you know, in the 50s. So, you know I wouldn' ; t ask my parents to, to buy me a yo-yo, so I thought, " ; Well maybe I' ; ll make myself a yo-yo." ; So I took some wood, and my grandfather had a coping saw so I, I d-, I drew two circles on this piece of wood and with a coping saw you know I, I, I cut these two crude circles and then I took a hand drill. And you know, I, I knew enough not to use his power machines, and I would drill a hole in this disc, and a, you know, here, another hole there and then with a short little piece of dowel, I stuck these things together and wound the stri- string around her. And it made a very bad yo-yo, but I was proud of it and it kept me busy for that afternoon. And then later on, my grandfather would start showing me how to do these things, how to, how to make, you know how to nail things together, how to, how to varnish, how to stain. He had a pot of hide glue going on in, in a little gas stove that he had, and so he would liquefy the hide glue, and then he' ; d use that to, you know, to make the joints. And so you know I guess he would have been my first, my woodworking teacher. And then later on I had formal shop training at, at high school. I had wood shop, and electric shop. And, and I guess those were my best subjects. U.S. History was probably my worst. But that and drafting, I was able to make a life for myself, you know making things, drawing things. I always said, you know, " ; Anything I can draw, I could probably make." ; And, you know I became a model maker and, build things for photographers and for TV sets--um, TV production. And, later on, my, I, I went to the, I' ; d gone to the Institute of Design f- which is part of IIT [Illinois Institute of Technology] you know for, for college. And, after I was done with model making, they asked me, the school asked me to be a, be a shop teacher. So, so from about 2008 to 2018, for 10 years you know, I was a shop teacher. And, I found that very rewarding, you know teaching the kids how to, to make things. Because, young people today, you know they' ; re, they' ; re, maybe they' ; re wizzes at computers, but they haven' ; t had a whole lot of exposure to manual arts. And a lot of these kids that were at the, at college, you know they' ; d come from good, you know good, good families, you know their fathers were you know lawyers, and professionals, and you know doctors maybe, and, you know they, they didn' ; t have the advantage of having tradespeople in their, in their families I suppose. But, so, I was able to teach them how to use the machines and the tools. And, and whenever somebody, you know a young person makes something, you know they are just so proud, and you know I was very proud for them too. EL: Do you think there are any-- I' ; m wondering if there are lessons that you' ; ve drawn from your own experience, and your family' ; s experience of, of immigration and separation and incarceration, that you think have informed your approach to teaching? EK: Well the lessons that, that I appreciate now would be you know the hard work that, that my grandparents and parents had gone through to, you know to adapt themselves to this country, to make a life, and to, you know make it easier for our generation. I mean we got to go to college, you know, my, my sister, my older sister became a doctor. She' ; s a patho- pathologist in New York City and, soon to retire, at the age of 72. She should have retired earlier, but anyway. (laughs) And I got to go to college. You know, college you know allowed me to avoid Vietnam, and that would have been the war of my generation. And you know, my father suffered through his war, I' ; m very fortunate not to have suffered through my wa- you know through my era' ; s war. And my younger sister, went to the Art Institute and you know she got to pursue her creative life. Um-- You were asking about me teaching, I don' ; t know if, you know, I think maybe teaching was, is, it' ; s, it comes easily to me in that, I can see a process and I want to impart that process you know to my student. You know, let' ; s go about this in a practical manner. And, I, I guess I' ; m having a hard time answering that question that way. EL: I suppose what I' ; m wondering is, i- if over the many years that you have taught, have you encountered any students where maybe you were able to connect with them in a, in a particular way, perhaps because of your experiences in life, or, or your knowledge of what your family has experienced? EK: I, I don' ; t really know in that, you know the students that I had at The Institute of Design-- Now when I was going there it was, I, I did foundation year. But The Institute of Design became a school for, for a master' ; s program. So there was a, you know it' ; s not a, you know not freshmen, but these were graduate students going for a master' ; s in product design. And so you know they had already proven themselves as good students, and-- You know I' ; m sorry I' ; m m- kind of meandering here! (laughs) EL: That' ; s perfectly all right! I think, I' ; d like to wrap things up maybe with some, some broader questions, but before we do that, I' ; m curious, given that your grandfather was incarcerated, when the redress movement happened and Civil Liberties Act was passed, was he able to receive reparations? EK: Yes, he, yes he was. You know he was, he was, very happily, you know he very happily you know accepted his $20,000 check. But then the next sentence was, you know although he was happy to have it, I didn' ; t think that it was as important to him as you know being able to, to call the U.S. his home. I, I think he had adopted-- Well, he had gotten his U.S. citizenship, probably about 1954. So he had been a U.S. citizen for a long time and so he had, he had always considered the U.S. his home. And you know the, the, the money was nice, but you know luckily he was successful enough in that it wasn' ; t something that was you know, something they d- that was really you know necessary for him. EL: And when that all happened did you understand why it was happening, the significance of it? EK: Yeah, I was old enough to know. I was old enough at that point to know what had happened to, you know, Japanese Americans. EL: Did your grandfather ever express anger about what had been done to him? EK: I think by the time we came along, he had gotten some success you know in his second career, you know as, you know as renting, as a r- you know as a landlord renting to tenants. And, you know, buying buildings and taking care of them. So, you know, I' ; m, I' ; m sure he was bitter at the time, but I think by that time you know the grand--, you know, us grandchildren came along, he was too busy with his other things. And then, you know and then, he, and he, he retired comfortably. EL: And, do you think there are any behavioral patterns that you observed in your family that might have been attributed to the experiences of the war? Be that, incarceration in the U.S. or deprivations in Japan? EK I, I think it was actually more their adapti- you know, the, the, the fact that they were able to adapt to their surroundings and, and to make the best of it that allowed them to survive and you know actually get some benefit, whatever benefit that, you know, that they got from that experience. Um-- I, I don' ; t know if it affected them personally so much although you know they were very devoted to the Japanese American community and, and you know they were very active in the, the resettler movement. Actually, (laughs) I' ; ve always aft-, I' ; ve always, you know whenever my grandfather said, he, he wasn' ; t able to say resettler, it always came out, came out " ; re-se-tu-ra" ; . Because you know Rs and Ls are so difficult! But later in life about 1990, the Japanese government did award him you know with a, with a medal ; in fact I have it here. And I remember him, proudly wearing it, with a suit. And, and this was for his generosity, and his support of you know Japanese Americans, and also you know, the, the relationship that he had with, you know with, with Japan. And, so anyway, he was very, you know he was very proud to, to wear it. EL: Are there any questions that you wish now that you could ask of your parents, or your grandparents, or even your great-grandfather? EK: Oh gosh, all kinds of questions I suppose. (laughs) You know, how things actually were, and you know comings and goings and years. And, and you know what their early experiences would have been but, but you know as, as children we didn' ; t have these questions. And then now sadly you know everybody who knows the answers are gone. I- I guess, you know my s-, my sister June and myself, and we have a cousin Wayne, who was you know the, the son of, of Uncle Herb, you know my mother' ; s middle son uh-- m-middle brother. You know we have some questions about, about the family tree, and actually Wayne did a, a very large graphic you know as far as, as far back as he can go, you know with the various branches of the family, and he was quite involved with that. And, you know with mountain families in, in, in small communities, the, you know there' ; s been a number of times that, the, the, the Koizumi family and the Mochizuki family have gotten together. I have a cousin in Japan who' ; s also, who' ; s, who' ; s a Koizumi who had married to a Mochizuki. There' ; s, there' ; s not as many, you know people in you know, that you could, you know that might be marriageable at any particular time, so you did what you could. But people did survive and it' ; s just really quite amazing that they did. EL: And, what motivated you to participate in this oral history project? EK: There was a woman named Lourdes, and I met her at a screening of a movie at our local, in Oak Park' ; s library. The movie was called The Orange Story and it, it talks about this Japanese American grocery store owner who has to sell his grocery store you know at the, when he' ; s about to be relocated to a, to a camp. And it' ; s a short story about his life and you know, goes on to him, what happens to him. And afterwards, there was a, a few people who, who got up and spoke and Lourdes was one of them. And her mother was born in Manzanar Camp, and she talked about you know her mother' ; s experiences. Now, afterwards I had a chance to talk with her and, and we became friendly, and, and she connected us, she connected me to some people in, in Manzanar. And actually what was amazing is that the park ranger that she connected me to was a woman named Rose Masters. It turned out that one of my students was a, was a best friend of hers. I thought Rose might have been an older woman but no Rose is a, a woman in her late twenties, and you know, as are you know, my students. So, it was quite amazing when one of my students came into my shop and said, " ; Oh Ed! You know Rose, she' ; s my best friend." ; And I thought, " ; Well that was a very interesting story, you know these you know six degrees of separation." ; And, what we were talking about? (laughs) EL: Oh, what motivated you to participate in our oral history, oral history project? EK: Oh, right, so anyway, Lourdes asked, told me that this oral history project was, was going on with the, with the Japanese American Service Committee and would I participate? And I usually try to stay away from things like this, but I thought I should, I should do this. You know I should honor my grandfather because you know he and Grandmother worked so hard to make a good life for, you know for, for his grandchildren and family and so that' ; s why I' ; m here. EL: Well we' ; re very grateful for your participation. So, to close us out here, I' ; d love to know what you would most like for younger generations to know about the experiences of you and, and your family. EK: I think it' ; s a story about immigration, that, that America should be a welcoming country. America needs young blood, you know it needs people who are motivated enough to leave their own countries. You know whether it' ; s the, you know the pull of the, the opportunities available in the, in the U.S., you know or the push of bad things happening in their country, they have the motivations to, to come to this country. And they bring resources and you know, their knowledge and their willingness to work and to, to be good citizens. And you know we should be welcoming of them rather than turning them away and, and that would be, you know, that would be my thought. EL: Thank you very much, and thank you for participating in our project. EK: (laughs) Okay, you' ; re quite welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KoizumiEdward20210512.xml KoizumiEdward20210512.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1 ","Kibei^^Nambu-cho^^Yamanashi-ken^^Manzanar^^McClurg Company^^Nichiren Buddhist Church^^Institute of Design^^Illinois Institute of Technology",3800,,,,,,,"Koizumi, Edward",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"ISHRAB,Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/7d1425d78627efa0fcaa446dde49f9d4.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
18,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/18,"Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021)",,"Cori Nakamura Lin is a fourth generation (yonsei) Japanese American born in the Chicago suburbs. In this interview, Cori shares her concept of the river of time, how we can see our present as continuously shaped by multigenerational experiences and events of the past, all interconnected. Cori describes her formative experiences in a Japanese American Christian church, and how growing up with multiracial people in that space helped shape her identity and provided a place of belonging. Cori discusses her experiences supporting social justice movements through art in the Twin Cities and Chicago, such as her work with the group Nikkei Uprising. She stresses the importance of undoing the generational trauma dating back to not only incarceration, but also Imperial Japan, and healing this trauma through community and shared cultural reclamation. ",,,,2021-05-19,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinCori20210519.xml," 5.4 5/19/2021 Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021) 1:05:55 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yonsei Cultural Reclamation Church of Christ Presbyterian Nikkei Uprising Activism Generational Trauma Healing Lin, Cori Nakamura Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|21(12)|37(6)|50(10)|69(5)|85(4)|98(8)|110(6)|123(13)|136(14)|149(11)|162(1)|177(7)|190(11)|202(12)|214(11)|228(2)|239(9)|252(8)|265(6)|277(6)|288(8)|299(13)|313(5)|331(3)|350(10)|360(18)|371(5)|381(6)|396(8)|407(6)|418(13)|431(2)|441(8)|456(8)|469(3)|481(15)|492(12)|503(7)|515(14)|528(8)|539(1)|548(15)|560(11)|574(2)|586(8)|596(8)|609(5)|622(13)|633(3)|646(6)|657(16)|669(12)|685(1)|699(3)|713(3)|727(6)|738(6)|752(9)|766(1)|776(14)|792(3)|807(12)|821(2)|833(5)|844(13) 0 https://vimeo.com/558281234/9cbadb46e7 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/558281234?h=9cbadb46e7" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Cori Nakamura Lin is a fourth generation (yonsei) Japanese American born in the Chicago suburbs. In this interview, Cori shares her concept of the river of time, how we can see our present as continuously shaped by multigenerational experiences and events of the past, all interconnected. Cori describes her formative experiences in a Japanese American Christian church, and how growing up with multiracial people in that space helped shape her identity and provided a place of belonging. Cori discusses her experiences supporting social justice movements through art in the Twin Cities and Chicago, such as her work with the group Nikkei Uprising. She stresses the importance of undoing the generational trauma dating back to not only incarceration, but also Imperial Japan, and healing this trauma through community and shared cultural reclamation. Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is May 19th, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N Clark St in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Cori Lin. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Welcome, to begin with I have just some background questions for you, so please state your full name. Cori Lin (CL): Hi, my name is Cori Nakamura Lin. EL: And what is your year of birth? CL: I was born in the year of the water monkey, 1992. EL: And where were you born? CL: I was born in a suburban, Chicago hospital. EL: And is the Chicago area also where you grew up? CL: Yes, I grew up in the northwest suburbs in Rolling Meadows area, um yeah. EL: And were your parents and grandparents also born and raised in the Chicago area? CL: So my mother was born in the Chicago area, who is on my Japanese side. My father moved from Taipei when he was around 13, and then eventually moved to the Chicago area. And then my grandparents on both sides were born all over, and then migrated to the Chicago area. EL: So on the Japanese side, approximately when did your family first come to the United States? CL: Yes, so I am a little fuzzy on exact dates, but I know that, so my Japanese family is also mixed. My Okinawan family, which is my maternal grandmother, came from Okinawa around the turn of the century, so in the early 1900s, late 1800s to Hawaii at that time. And my great-grandfather, and my grandma, and her family all lived there until the, after the war. I think in the ni--late 60s my grandmother then moved to Indiana to go to college. My maternal grandfather' ; s side are Japanese and from Hiroshima area and they came to California with my grandfather' ; s dad. And I' ; m not exactly sure what the dates were, but it was probably a little bit in the early 1910s. And my grandfather grew up in Yuba City, and then was incarcerated in Amache, and then eventually after traveling around after the war time, eventually moved to Chicago. EL: Okay, thank you. So when people ask you what generation you are, how do you answer? CL: So I say that I am yonsei, because my, yeah, both the isseis of my family were in California and Hawaii, but then both of my grandparents are nisei. Even though like their siblings, some of them are half-gen, but both my grandparents were born in Hawaii, and then California. So, my mom is a sansei and I' ; m a yonsei. EL: Okay, so what can you tell me about the immigration history on the other side of your family? CL: Yes, so my other side is Taiwanese American. My Taiwanese family had been in Taiwan since I think the early, early 18th century? So they had been there for like a really long time don' ; t quote me on that, the number, but I know that the Lins had been in Taiwan for a long time. The--my ah-gong' ; s family, my paternal grandfather, was a part of like a pretty big established like, family. And then my grandmother married into it and there was a lot of Taiwanese war stuff there also with World War II, and Japan and China, but in the, I think in the 70s, after the Chinese Exclusion Act ended, then my maternal grandmother decided to move the family to America. EL: Okay, thank you. So now we' ; re going to shift a little bit and talk about you? CL: Yeah. EL: --and your direct experiences, and you touched a little bit on where exactly you grew up, but if you could just state again respective to Chicago, the city, where did you grow up? CL: Yeah so I grew up in the northwest suburbs, which is kind of like a first ri--maybe actually second ring suburb of the area. I grew up in Rolling Meadows, which is a small suburb nearby Palatine, Arlington Heights. I usually tell people who live in Chicago that I' ; m out by the IKEA, I tell Japanese Americans that I' ; m out by the Mitsuwa. Yeah, I grew up there after my, my mom and dad had lived in Chicago for a little while when they first got married, but then eventually bought a house and moved to the suburbs where they raised me and my sisters. EL: And how would you characterize that community? CL: The northwest suburbs of Chicago I--are, they' ; re very diverse, but the ones that I grew up were very upper middle class to middle class and majorily white. I went to Fremd, William Fremd High School, which is like a pretty like, high sought after school and school district, so a lot of the Asian folks that are in the area are first- and second- generation Chinese and Korean Americans. I grew up knowing a lot of Asian folks and having lots of East Asian and South Asian folks around, but not many Japanese Americans in the suburb that I was in, and not many folks who had like a longer immigration legacy, like being yonsei. EL: So if you weren' ; t living near or going to school with a lot of other Japanese American people, did you have opportunities to engage with the Japanese American community outside of your hometown or outside of your school setting? CL: Yeah, so well first of all, I was homeschooled up until like 8th grade so I, I wasn' ; t really socializing with anyone like regardless of if they were Japanese or not in a school setting. But my grandparents, when they moved to Chicago and met there, started attending a Japanese American church called Church of Christ Presbyterian, and that' ; s kind of where my mom grew up as her home church in another, in a Japanese American Christian Church environment. And eventually when my father was going to medical school, he joined that church as well, as a Taiwanese American friend, and that' ; s where they met, and they got married. So I grew up also going to that church, is that we would drive into the city to the north park neighborhood every Sunday from the northwest suburbs. And would, yeah, go to church there, where there were a lot of mixed Japanese American families. Like the church was historically JA, but by the time I was around, most of the people there were either half Japanese American, and we would join up with a few other of the Japanese American, historically Japanese American churches, lakeside, and at one point Church of Christ Presbyterian to do church camp every summer, so that was kind of like my social experience. EL: So during your formative years, were you particularly aware of your identity as Japanese American, or as Asian American? CL: Mhmm, so I, I laugh a little bit just because this is a theme that I think about a lot, which is that I ha--was not at all aware of my identity growing up almost even through college. That I have had kind of like two distinct phases that my little sister likes to make fun of me, and calls my Asian puberty, or second Asian puberty, now becoming a third Asian puberty. But because I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of, I would say Asian immigrants but not a lot of Asian Americans I grew up having a very conflated sense of like what it meant to be Asian from a white American lens. Because I was mixed as well, I always had a lot of like contention between being Taiwanese versus being Japanese, and kind of as a kid it turned into this like pan-Asian identity that wasn' ; t really rooted in anything besides just kind of a pride within my immediate family and a sense of being different. So I think I didn' ; t really learn a lot about the history of my family on either sides until college, and then after college. And also thinking about what it means to be an Asian person, and how I' ; ve been racialized took me a really long time to understand. EL: Did you ever have uncomfortable moments in, in your Taiwanese family world with regard to your--the Japanese piece of your identity or vice versa in your Japanese world, Japanese American world, with regard to your, your Taiwanese identity. CL: So it' ; s a interesting question because I think for people who know about the history of Taiwan, are oftentimes very surprised that my, my family exists, and that both sides of the family get along well together. But knowing, and that also kind of confused me too, the more I learned about Taiwan and the Japanese colonization of it. But then, I learned a little bit about my ah-ma' ; s family so my paternal grandmother, and the role that her father took in kind of like af--before and after World War II, where they were a pretty prestigious family. And he was able to learn Japanese, and like my grandmother was born during Japanese occupation so she speaks Japanese? Like when, now even that like lots of my Japanese relatives have forgotten Japanese, my Taiwanese ah-ma is still fluent, and she speaks to my niece in Japanese and stuff. So when my parents got married, that was like the f--one of the first times, and actually I don' ; t know if this is a real story or just a story that I' ; ve been told but this is one of the first times that the families met each other, the Taiwanese side and the Japanese side, and my grandfather' ; s family were kind of like all there, and my grandma' ; s siblings and they were kind of like didn' ; t know how to approach their in-laws now. But then one of my dad' ; s family members was kind of like " ; ...hey" ; and started speaking in Japanese to them, and then like the whole family was like, " ; Oh my God, we all speak Japanese!" ; And then they all started chatting together and, and felt very comfortable. So I think the specific place in time and the position of kind of like pres--prestige that they were able to hold their identities as Taiwanese people on my Taiwanese side, kind of helped them get along with the Japanese family. They also don' ; t really know anything about--or like the Japanese conflict, they didn' ; t know anything about internment, but just ethnically, they got along well. And now, now that I do know all of these histories, I feel like it' ; s more of me kind of like weighing how I feel like my family has reacted to them o--over time. EL: So on that topic of, of learning about these histories that you weren' ; t aware of when you were younger, when did that start to happen and how did you go about learning? CL: So I' ; ve always been interested in culture, and that was something that I remember that I had one class in high school that was called like, " ; Facets of Identity" ; or like, and I just remember we we read " ; A Mirror for Humanity" ; which was like a history book that just kind of like covered different ethnic identities. And I just remember that was like the only time, it-this was like an elective course that I took with Mr. Zacharia, a teacher I really liked, who was a person of color, he was South Asian. And he was the first one who kind of started to talk to me about history from, yeah just like a not white perspective. I had like U.S. history, I had like world history that were all prepped for AP tests and that taught me nothing. So that really peaked my interest, and I was always interested in art and he let me do a lot of art projects to kind of process that history. And that like, now that I think about the artwork that I do like it all kind of starts from that point, where I just had one teacher who is teaching me history from a not white perspective. And so then when I went to school I studied anthropology and studio art, and that was also at a liberal arts school I went to Lawrence University in Wisconsin. And their program was anthropology, where I loved learning about different cultures, and how cultures were formed, and how to kind of like study and research them from a social science perspective. But they didn' ; t give me an understanding of--like it was still from a white lens, this idea that you would go out into another culture and kind of learn about them, and I was always really interested in studying the culture that I was in, and kind of analyzing how that was connecting with other things. So I was able to study my like, ethnicity as a, as a concept through my anthropology program and I remember my senior project was about measuring ethnic, like trying to create a quantification that would measure ethnic identity. Kind of coming from this experience I had in high school where I felt that ethnicity was really fluid and it didn' ; t have to do with, yeah, like it wasn' ; t race, but it was something that was like self-elected. And so that was something that I was given the space to study but even when I look back at that paper, I had focused on Japanese Americans but just like the way that I was trying to quantify it seems so funny to me now ' ; cause it was all, it was also missing this lens of assimilation, and how Japanese folks had been kind of forced to give up their cultural identity. So I, I hadn' ; t included kind of that factor in my study. So I think that the last step of my kind of coming to my Japanese-ness is when I moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota right after school, I was working in a lot of different nonprofits, meeting a lot of people, and the Asian community there really opened their arms to me and accepted me even though I wasn' ; t a part--like I was Japanese and Taiwanese which there aren' ; t a ton of in the Twin Cities. There is a ton of Southeast Asians, lots of Hmong folk, lots of Vietnamese and Cambodian people, and they all kind of accepted me. And through kind of learning from them how they had been fighting for black lives, it really showed me what a kind of like pan-Asian solidarity could really feel like knowing that we all had really different cultures, but that together we do have an identity that we can build on and bring people together and unite with. During the time that I was in the Twin Cities both Jamar Clark and Philando Castile were killed. And so they were murdered by the Minneapolis police, and well Brooklyn Park police too, and so I--or Falcon Heights I guess. But it was really easy to kind of feel a community mourn and grieve and to come together across differences, and I felt really a part of a pan-Asian community there, but then it wasn' ; t until then I finally moved back to Chicago in 2019 that I was able to kind of start, with those tools, start building a community back in Chicago. That we' ; re kind of emulating those same things of building a community across difference, knowing that we have lots of histories and experiences but kind of pushing it towards a shared goal. EL: So if we could maybe, with that in mind, rewind a little bit your high school years and, and maybe what was missing during those years, that looking back you wish you had had in terms of community. How do you, how do you look back on those years now? How do you feel about that? CL: I think about this a lot and I think about it both of what did I need but also what can I build for future generations? Because I think a lot of the things that I need, or that I would have needed like there are things I could have had back then like more curriculum, more discussions about what race and being racialized is. I think less quantifying conversations about blood--like blood quantum in Asian community is also a thing. So I think all of those things would have helped me kind of grow into myself as a child, but basically--when I think about future generations it' ; s like they have so many more opportunities of what they can' ; t have. Because the conversations that we were having about race when I was growing up in the 2000s and the 90s, was nowhere close to what I can even find in like one TikTok right now. So I think there' ; s a lot more possibilities of what we could create, like I think it wouldn' ; t have been really possible for me to have a--a squad of young femmes and gender expansive people who come together and talk about like their different heritages and their cultures and how they use that power. But there' ; s a couple of spaces that I' ; m in now that are for young people, like I think about Radical Monarchs, which is like a " ; Girl Scout Troop" ; but with a social justice lens. And I think about some of the women of color or young girls of color spaces that I' ; ve been a part of and those I feel like have a lot of, so much more potential than what I could have had as a, as a young person. EL: So I also want to touch on what you said about the work you did in college an--and what was missing from that paper about the assimilation element of things. And looking at your own family, at a piece of your own family so your, let' ; s see, your maternal grandfather who was incarcerated, do you see in your own family things that were done or decisions that were made that you would qualify as assimilation? CL: Yes. So that is a question that I have been unpacking I think over the past few years, that when I grew up and I think even when I was in my post-college years in the Twin Cities, I did feel like there was something missing. And sometimes it felt like a disconnection, sometimes it felt like inadequacy. Like why don' ; t I know Japanese? Or--it wasn' ; t even that question it was just like, I don' ; t know Japanese. And as a kid it was always very defensive, that it would be white folks who were trying to connect to me about anime, or it would be other Asian folks who were first or second gen and wanted to connect with me about Asian stuff, or it would be people who are, who like or japanophiles, and who are interested in that. Being like, oh like either they were excited to speak to me in Japanese, or asking me about that, and then I wouldn' ; t know and then that kind of created this dissonance inside of me, between there' ; s this one thing which being Asian is and I am not that. And so it was, it was less of a sense of something missing and more of a sense of being divided and as a, as a young person and as I learned about that history I' ; ve been able to figure out where those come, that divide comes from. Things like talking to my mom very slowly about how her experiences of being Japanese and Asian growing up in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and how she was oftentimes, yeah also felt that way. But in the 60s and 70s when there weren' ; t a lot of other Asian Americans from different backgrounds to kind of trade experiences with or build off of, she often, she told me that going to Hawaii was the only time that she felt normal. And that was something that kind of made sense to me because I never had a place that I felt like normal besides maybe like amongst other mixed JAs. But just knowing that she had that sadness and that kind of isolation made sense to me later in my life. And then of course going back to the history of how my grandfather in that generation came to Chicago and what, how they had to exit camp, and reading the surveys and reading the materials that they were given. Telling them like, " ; Will you not speak Japanese? Will you try to blend into hakujin spaces? Will you not band together, and not have social groups based off of culture together?" ; That made a lot of sense to me and my family how we have both celebrated American-ness and to some degree, white-ness, we conflate those two often times. And then how Japanese-ness is kind of something that belongs in the past. That' ; s kind of how I feel like assimilation was really kind of like, woven into, into my family. But the other thing that I' ; ve been thinking, and this is like a really new thought that' ; s happened in the past year or so since I' ; ve been thinking, trying to learn more about the history even behind incarceration, of Japanese colonialism and imperialism. And this kind of like, knowing how Japanese culture and nationalism kind of created this idea that Japanese folks were better, and then seeing how that traveled through incarceration and that kind of blended into this idea that even though we suffer we' ; re still the best. That' ; s something that is also deep in me both from Taiwanese and my Japanese side and I don' ; t really know how to process through that yet. EL: In your life where you' ; ve been made to feel not Japanese enough or not Taiwanese enough? CL: So there' ; s many spaces, and I talked to a lot of mixed Japanese folks now who didn' ; t have that same kind of like church experience and I did, and something that I realized is like, wow that was a true blessing that I had a community of mixed folks who were both Japanese and something else, Filipino, Taiwanese, Chinese, white, and we were all friends and we grew up together. And that really, really changed I think my experience as much as I have always felt like I wasn' ; t totally Taiwanese, again, don' ; t speak Mandarin, many more Taiwanese folks are first or second generation. But I' ; ve always felt very comfortable being a mixed Japanese person because of that exposure, and so I think there' ; s a lot of superpowers in being mixed, and one of them is sitting at the margins of and the intersections of multiple identities. And I' ; m really excited to think about how Japanese-ness and our values and ethnicity can travel without blood, or with--yeah like it, it doesn' ; t need an amount for it to be real. And so that' ; s something that I feel like being mixed is, is teaching me. EL: Could you talk a little bit more about those experiences within the church, and you' ; ve mentioned church camp. CL: Yeah. EL: And what was that like, what kinds of activities did you do? CL: So there' ; s th--the part of, I talk about church and I do this publicly a lot but it is very personal to me, that I, there' ; s a p--a lot about the church experience that I really cherish. Which was, being mixed, having like, I mean three generations of my family have gone to the same church and even now when I' ; m trying to get involved in Japanese activism, a lot of the times I' ; m finding either historical documents or things that like root back to, to that church. So it--it is a network and it' ; s a hub for me, and I still cherish it as that. At the same time, I' ; ve left the Christian religion and so that is also something that was obviously a huge part of it that I have a little bit more burden with, or I carry a little bit more baggage with. But I have such like fond memories of just being a child and being able to go to sleepaway camp, my cousins would come in from California and they' ; re also mixed Japanese folks and we would all go to camp together. It was a sleepaway camp, play games, do Bible stuff. But you' ; re in a cabin with like four to five other people who are your age and so like, I' ; m still friends with a lot of the people that I went to camp with. EL: So bringing us into more of the present, CL: Mhmm EL: So you went, you went away but stayed in the Midwestern region-- CL: Mhmm EL: for college and then you were in the Twin Cities, and you came back to Chicago. And I, I was hoping maybe you could talk a little bit about what brought you back to Chicago, and how you feel about having returned to where you started. CL: Yes. So I came to Chicago, or returned back for a couple of reasons that are both generational. And I think that that' ; s a theme that I really have been almost like swimming in--I feel like being in Chicago is swimming in the river of time, and I keep using that analogy. So my father was sick all growing up, but his cancer became like deadly in the last, in like 2018-2019. So I was going back and forth a lot and my sister and her husband Aaron got pregnant. So around 2019, both they had my nibling Charlotte and my father passed away. So for those two reasons I was like, just called to be closer with family both to take--yeah be closer to my mom and to be a part of my niece' ; s life. And since then like I had never been a part of a Japanese community and I wasn' ; t anymore a part of the church, so I had kind of been like oh like I' ; m not going to be--like I don' ; t have anything Japanese anymore. Like I remember this like feeling of loss of being like oh like that was a nice thing that I once had and now like what, what do I have now? But then of course like met a few people who were also into like arts and activism stuff. Met some people from JACL and JASC, Lisa Doi and JJ Ueunten and like we were just all visioning the same things. And so we like JJ and Anne Watanabe kind of like pulled together a group of a lot of people who were interested in activism and like yeah really rooting into being Japanese American folks together, and created Nikkei Uprising as it is today. So that' ; s kind of my community now. There' ; s a lot of things that kind of connect to the river of time. Since I' ; ve been in Chicago I' ; ve like worked with the JASC oral history project, I' ; m working with Kat Nagasawa on another project about Japanese American resettlement and then another one that' ; s about redress that Emma is also doing. So besides being involved in kind of these historical pieces, and working on advocacy as a group of Japanese Americans, and then also in my own family really trying to capture stories from my grandfather and my ah-ma on my Taiwanese side bef--as they are getting at the ends of their lives. It feels a lot like sitting in the river of time. I feel like I can see really clear connections between the past and where I am now because of the oral history pieces and the resettlement and redress history and knowing how much it happened here in Chicago. Like in the same spaces and like with the same people that my grandfather knew. And then thinking about like my new gosei nibling Charlotte, and even sitting here doing this history I am imagining just, yeah the future generations who will be able to see it maybe pull the same kind of information that I did from the oral histories that I had listened to from the--yeah people talking about their lives in the ear--like 20s and 30s even. So yeah, river of time! EL: So let' ; s talk about that a little bit more. Your, your involvement in some of these recent projects, and what specifically was your role in the oral history project? CL: So I was acting as an illustrator. I' ; m a visual artist, right now I have the huge privilege of being a full time artist and illustrator, mostly working with community organizations, nonprofits, and doing my own personal work. One with my sister who just got a book who' ; s going to be publishing a series of essays using yokai, so--sorry! That' ; s just to give background to what I' ; m doing. But yeah, one of my big projects is working with Kat Nagasawa, illustrating kind of the history of resettlement and redress. So kind of the--a lot of the history that we have especially from the Japanese American like movement to Chicago is in bits and pieces, and those are really really great for us to dig into but it' ; s hard for people to access the story. So we' ; ve kind of been, I almost feel like historical translators, like picking up the pieces--well, Kat mostly picking up the pieces, figuring out what can really weave together a narrative that' ; s not the whole narrative but gives people an idea of what the full tapestry was. And then it' ; s my--kind of my role to make that exciting and to come alive and make people want to engage with it. EL: How has that work made you feel? CL: I mean it makes me cry like every day. Like so so often I feel extremely like privileged to be in this role as like a storyteller. Yeah I--with the book that my sister is doing too it' ; s, it' ; s going to be pub--my sister, my older sister Jami is a writer and I' ; m an illustrator and we' ; ve been telling stories like to each other and in zines like our whole lives. But recently, I' ; ve been thinking a lot about kind of just all the work that my grandparent' ; s generation and the sansei generation and even like shin-nikkei, everyone have done to lead Japanese Americans to this point where we are extremely, as a whole, stable. I--I' ; ve been reading a lot about my grandparents' ; experiences, a migrant farmer, about people who moved to the South side of the Chicago and were living in Cabrini-Green before they were able to work in factories, and then moved to the north side. And thinking about how they were doing a lot of, a lot of these histories align with different immigrant groups to the US too. Like my grandfather was working alongside Mexican American migrant farmers. And when there was a Japanese community on the South side they were living with black Americans too. But a lot of things, like structural things, allowed them to go to school get the GI bill, they weren' ; t redlined, and allowed them to kind of get education, and led me to be in a place where I grew up in the suburbs, my parents were both college educated and they were able to pay for my college experience so I don' ; t have loans. So all of that feels like a huge, a huge privilege and that' ; s built on generations of, of work. So I think that the reason that I get so emotional about this is because I feel like I' ; ve been like I have a certain skill set, like I went to a really good school district and was able to like develop art skills. And to now u--be able to use that energy and time to kind of shift what I would consider the Japanese American story to be a little bit more expansive of what we consider to be our community, like that feels extremely powerful in this moment. And for me it feels extremely meaningful to feel like the role that I want to have in society and in my community is that of being a storyteller, so I feel like yeah redress the stor--yeah the yokai book, redress, resettlement all of that it--it feels like I get to do that. Like if I was in an olden times, I would really want to be like a traveling bard, and I feel like this is--it' ; s a similar feeling--but just on Instagram. [smiles] EL: Let' ; s talk a little bit more about, about the power of art and, and your involvement with activism, an--and beyond the Japanese American community, you have had the opportunity to use your art in powerful ways, right? So could you describe what some of those experiences are? CL: Yeah, the first few times that I felt like I was able to make art in community and felt like it was making a difference is when I was in the Twin Cities and mostly in South Minneapolis, working in a neighborhood, and that led me to be able to support a lot of housing efforts. So, through like just volunteering and showing up to meetings, and then eventually working with my boss to get an arts grant, I was able to make a lot of art for that movement. Both like doing interviews to interview renters about their experiences with like slumlords and discriminatory housing practices, and then paint their portraits and share those stories in that way. And then also make a mural that is like on the Greenway in South Minneapolis that featured renter stories and then showed some like facts about the housing crisis in Minneapolis. And that was something where making the art wasn' ; t for me, it was for the people that I was interviewing, like I gave them the portraits when they were done, so there was a lot of consultation. In making the mural, I had to talk to hundreds of people with my fellow co-organizer Tori Hong, and that was like my first time of realizing that like art can be a tool, that art is not a product, art is a tool that can shape cities, it can shape hearts and minds, and it can shape a conversation. Like oftentimes people were just kind of stopping by while I was painting, being like " ; What' ; s this about?" ; and I was like " ; Let me tell you about the housing crisis in Minneapolis!" ; But we were able to look at the, the mural while it happened. So that was one of the first things that felt really--that it was, art doesn' ; t belong in a separate space, art is from the community and just belongs within it and that' ; s kind of been what' ; s guided me ever since. EL: Here in Chicago what kinds of activism have you been able to get engaged with? CL: So I' ; ve been in Chicago for, I think I' ; ve almost--one and a half years now...Yes? Yes. I don' ; t know math. And the quarantine has made time seem fully like an illusion. But I first tried to get involved in both pan-Asian organizing and then Japanese American organizing specifically. But Japanese organizing only existed once, once I came here. So I was first starting getting involved with A Just Chi which is a part of Asian Americans Advancing Justice which is a huge Asian American advocacy organization here in Chicago that has networks and hubs all over the country. And that was really great way of getting involved in like local politics and understanding just like how corrupt Chicago is. But then because JJ and Anne pulled this group together, eventually we were working as--first we thought we were Tsuru for Solidarity Chicago, a local branch of the national Tsuru for Solidarity network which also popped up in the last few years as a network of Japanese Americans to support trying to call for the end of the camps at the border that are, you know, separating families. But then eventually it turned into Nikkei Uprising Chicago. So that' ; s just like a small group of us. There' ; s like 15 to 20 people as of right now, and I feel like that is very powerful for me and that' ; s what I would consider like my home, my political home. Because we' ; re not just working on you know, advocacy, we' ; re also working on like building a community and unpacking stuff within ourselves. Something we were able to do was like we' ; ve been showing up to Cook County jail at least a couple of people, one or two members every week, for the past year to support Cassandra Greer-Lee, whose husband Nickolas Lee was one of the inmates who first passed away in Cook County jail after the coronavirus pandemic in 2019 and--or 2020. And so we' ; ve been doing like local stuff like that trying to join that anti-incarceration, down with the prison industrial complex fight. But then also working personally, so we were able to host three sessions that were on Zoom and were able to share them with people across the country, but unpacking Japanese colonialism in Okinawa and US military colonialism, the Japanese colonialism of Hawaii, and then Japanese imperialism as a whole and kind of that, that framework. So those things like that' ; s kind of been helping me figure out more about this assimilation history my family has--my family experienced. And then also kind of like what were these mindsets that we' ; ve adapted even as we were being incarcerated ourselves. Like how this mentality of like, we just need to like put our heads down and fight. Like that is a survival technique, but that' ; s also coming from--that' ; s a trauma response as well. And that' ; s trauma from, I don' ; t know I mean everything, incarceration in the US, but then also from the Japanese government, and how they made their citizens feel about, about themselves as individuals. EL: Do you see reflections of that within your own family? Sort of the intergenerational passing on of trauma? CL: Yes, I--I don' ; t--I feel like the trauma is almost like latent, and like it' ; s hard, it' ; s almost easier for me to talk about these things in, in historical ways than in my own family ' ; cause it' ; s so intangible. I don' ; t see us passing on trauma as strongly as I see us not passing on healing. I think things like--me and my sisters right now we' ; re trying to learn Japanese. And as an adult that comes with a lot of shame, like I have a lot of shame about being bad, bad at the language. But I--I feel like that' ; s the process of me trying to unlearn this, this trauma. And so even if I don' ; t have full language to pass on to the next generation, I will have this kind of like settled-ness within myself that like I' ; m not a bad person for not knowing this. And that' ; s kind of what I consider like passing on a piece of healing. And I, I don' ; t see that--I see that happening now within me in my mother but within my grandfather, I love him and cherish his stories, but some of his lessons I--are harder for me to process in this day and age. I feel like a lot of the way that my grandfather decided to--or had to survive incarceration was by celebrating America and the American government. And deciding that he--and he' ; s told me this even recently, just about how he respects you know all the leaders of the country and doesn' ; t feel like we should oppose presidential decisions or even presidents or, because they are you know for my grandfather ordained by God, like decided being a part of his plan, but then also just like as you know they are the moral authority and they are the authority and that' ; s something that we should follow. And that is not something that, that I believe o-or share. And so I think the idea that what the U-United States did was not just wrong and not just a mistake that they had to apologize for, but also is a--the incarceration of the JAs was just a pattern of how the United States works as a settler colonial project. That they, I mean the United States is built on stolen land and when they incarcerated the Japanese Americans my grandfather was put on the stolen land of indigenous people who had been already forcibly removed. So I think that' ; s kind of the pattern of healing that we ne--we, I would like my family to address that more of being like this was not just a mistake, this was kind of how America works. And that it can' ; t be healed by an apology, it can' ; t be healed by Americ--or by Japanese people becoming Americans. I think that' ; s something that I see being passed on, is that if we' ; re accepted, then we' ; ll be good, and then we' ; ll be healed, and I, I don' ; t think so. EL: How do you, how do you find that very delicate balance between loving your grandfather and respecting him, and, and respecting what he' ; s been through in his life, but also holding these very different and, and valid views on, on how our country works and how the world works? Is that difficult sometimes when you' ; re having conversations with him? CL: It' ; s difficult in, in conversations. Cognitive dissonance is a miracle worker in letting me hold multiple of these, these ideas together. I think also too, there' ; s something about when I' ; m with my grandparents and my family all together, like I do become a child. Like when I sit here I can feel like I' ; m like yes, like I' ; m 28 like I have solid ideas. But you know when you' ; re back there I just fall into old patterns and it' ; s easy just to listen and be like, " ; Yup, you' ; re never going to change your mind about some things." ; Which I think is fine and healthy, ' ; cause I can' ; t change people, but I can change what I do and how I feel like I should shape you know, the river of time that I' ; m sitting in. And doing things like this, like I didn' ; t really want to be recorded because it didn' ; t feel like I was historical. But then after participating in my grandfather' ; s too I was like " ; Yeah, like I do want to share." ; I think what I see is needed for the future or what I would like our incarceration story to be because I think it is really powerful. But I feel like I' ; m one--I' ; m two stepping stones further in the river of time than my grandfather is so I have a totally different perspective. But I think that that, again, the river of time helps me understand that like everything that he did and even his positions that I disagree with are influencing me to be who I am today. EL: When you were talking about Nikkei Uprising, you mentioned that it' ; s not just the activism work that matters but also what you as a community are forming for yourselves. And I' ; d love to hear more about that, and also I' ; m wondering does that help you grapple with the intense frustration that it--that you must feel sometimes if you' ; re engaged in activism in the United States in 2021. CL: Yes, so I feel like the personal work is more important than the activism work. And I feel like they have to go hand in hand because there is urgent stuff happening right now that we need to do for sure. But I guess I--because of seeing how much change has happened between the last few generations and now, I feel really really confident that it' ; s not just the big stuff that we do, it' ; s the generational change that can make lasting lasting impact. Because I--and yeah I' ; m still in awe of the fact that growing up in the early 2000s the idea that there could be a movement of Japanese Americans who are willing to say something like the government is doing things that are not great, or that the police shouldn' ; t be killing people on the street. Like that seems incomprehensible to me that, that we could have a movement of Japanese Americans who are coming together for abolition right now. Like the New York Day of Remembrance, Nikkei Uprising, and Tsuru for Solidarity coordinated a national nikkei abolition study group and there' ; s over 100 people who came to their first session. So that feels like amazing. But this study group in of itself is it' ; s like we' ; re moving people towards action, but it is towards unpacking all this stuff. Like all this stuff I' ; ve been talking about like the language, shame, guilt, feeling like I need acceptance but not knowing from where it is, that' ; s the kind of stuff that I really want to heal in our community. And I feel like art can help do that, having community connections can do that, but really just conversations and like one-on-one connections. Like every time I talk to a mixed person who feels like they' ; re not Japanese enough and I tell them " ; No! We are Japanese like we can be Japanese and you can claim things. You can be--you don' ; t have to do any of these things to be who you are." ; I feel like that is powerful work that will--can resonate into the future. I just feel like the-there' ; s so many small things that I see, that I' ; m finding in historical documents where I' ; m like " ; Wow I never knew that this thing happened but I can feel it, because of the way that it shifted the community." ; EL: On that concept of reclaiming, and you' ; ve talked already about language and trying to learn Japanese now as an adult. Are there other, other aspects of Japanese culture that you' ; ve made efforts to reclaim? CL: There' ; s a few so one is like, I think ancestor honoring is one of those, like my father passed and without Christianity I was kind of struggling with how do I grieve? And how do I keep his memory alive? And so I now have a little altar. I kind of tried to model it off of my Buddhist altar where she' ; s like not totally practicing Buddhist but she just you know has an altar. And so that' ; s one thing. I' ; m trying to learn about aspects of Shintoism. Shintoism without the burden of Japanese nationalism behind it, to think about kind of the connection to earth and getting to know the land, and how people in Japan and Okinawa did know the land. Just history is a huge part too. I think just learning more about like what Japanese did to Okinawa really helps me kind of understand the culture, both of Japan and of Okinawa more. And holidays! Like things like I was really involved in the--my Christian church but we didn' ; t participate in a ton of other Japanese American community stuff. Like we would go to obon sometimes at Mitsuwa, but now like I helped work on the anniversary T-shirts for the Midwest Buddhist Temple' ; s Ginza holiday and they' ; ve been doing that for 70--65 years so I--my family had never gone before, but after the pandemic we' ; re hoping to start going to those. And yeah just things like being in community with other Japanese people was not an intention that I had in my life. I think I, sometimes I was like I want to be an artist, and then at certain points I was like I want to be Asian, and at some points I was like I want to know people who are not white, but this is the first few years where I was like I' ; m really looking for intentional Japanese American community, and that in itself is a reclamation. EL: What would you like to see all of us doing in the Chicago Japanese American community to achieve that goal? CL: I really like this question. And I have a lot of dreams for us, I do. I would like Japanese Americans to, to take it slow. I feel like if we can commit not just to, I think there' ; s a lot of pushes right now for--to how to act in solidarity, how to act in solidarity with black lives, how to act in solidarity internationally with these things. And I think those are really, really important and I' ; m listening and practicing them, but I think I would also like us to think about the, yeah kind of like the inner feelings. The shame, the guilt, the needing of acceptance that I feel like have really been passed down through incarcera--like that' ; s what I feel like the legacy of incarceration is now. And feeling like we don' ; t align with other Asian communities that might have either newer immigration histories, or don' ; t have incarceration histories. And I feel like if we can work through those things generationally, like that' ; s what I want for us in Chicago. The other thing that I have that' ; s a recent plot plan is I would love, and I don' ; t have to lead this, anyone in the future you can also take this on, is I would love for us to have a new camp. And I' ; ve been thinking about this as someone who loved church camp but is no longer in the church. I would really love for us to have a Japanese American camp that has a mixed identity lens, that has a social justice community-centered lens, that could bring people together from the coasts and from the Midwest. And it could be in you know, the southwest-like area so it could be like literally in the same areas that ancestors were held. But like shin-nikkei and everyone could come too, and for Japanese American people to have a chance to have that normalized mixed experience to have a little bit of history, and ceremony, and practice doing together but just really be in community together. I think that the thing that I see my cousins who are mixed on the coast have is a sense of normalcy. But I see the thing that me and my sisters have which, who are very Midwest and also mixed, is that we have a sense of urgency and community and necessity. Like th-th-the idea of keeping Japanese-ness alive is very much more important to us because it feels more fleeting. And I think that those two things coming together would be really powerful for us to have a sense of normalcy and a sense of the need to conne--connect our communities together. And then in the future when the gosei and the rokusei say that they went to camp, it would mean something different than what the nisei and the issei meant. So, that' ; s my grand proposal, if I have time when I' ; m 50, I' ; m going to try to start this camp. [laughs] EL: And do you view that camp as being more like your summer camp and for, for children and teens or as an intergenerational ' ; for everyone' ; kind of experience? CL: I think the thing that was special about the camp, Chi-KO and Teen Camp, that I went to was that it was for the kids, but it was intergenerational. The high school students went to Teen Camp, the college and young adults were the counselors, the adults had you know other way--like were also counselors or Bible leaders or whatever leadership stuff and then the families were like bringing children. So it really became something, like it was focused on the youth but all generations were a part of it. And I feel like that is something that I love about small communities, church communities, faith communities that I would like non-faith communities to build and have as well. Oh, and also that the camp, like I would love for this one to be that like you can learn anything. Like I think that that' ; s something, like I have, you know JA friends who are scientists and engineers who want to teach stuff like my friends are like artists, and like writers and creatives and like t--and also people who have practical skills around you know, how to organize in your schools, how to build community and start a club, all that kind of stuff I think I would like young people to have. EL: That' ; s a beautiful concept. I' ; m curious, because you mentioned you know, one possibility could be, could be in the southwest or could be on a site that had been used for incarceration have you yourself or has anyone in your family been on a pilgrimage? CL: So my little sister did the Kansha project through the Japanese American Citizens League, so she went on a, like did I think it was like a weekend of like community building and then they traveled and did a pilgrimage to Manzanar where they laid cranes, and then went to Little Tokyo in Japantown, or no in LA. So that was kind of like the, with another group of Japanese Americans, and I really love that ' ; cause it helped my little sister get really like grounded in the history and build community as well. I was too old to go on that program, but my family I think in 2018 did go on our own little trip, where we went to Granada, Colorado to visit the Amache incarceration site which is not as preserved as Manzanar but still has you know, the bunk and the guard tower and everything. So we brought my nibling there and my brother-in-law and we--like as a family just like drove around the site, and we like tried to walk to the site where my grandfather' ; s like barrack would have been, and it' ; s like all grown over now in the desert. But it' ; s it-it was powerful in just being like, they were really just out here in nowhere. And like they tell me about growing s-- like trying to grow stuff and like having food and like I don' ; t know everything being dusty. It w-- just seeing it, and it really makes me feel like yeah, they were really surviving in the desert even though they weren' ; t being you know, brutalized with violence, yeah everything was taken away. EL: What kinds of expectations did you have as you were embarking on that trip, and did it live up to those expectations? CL: I don' ; t know what my expectations were, I think it was powerful to do it with family, like with my mother and my-my sisters and our, you know the next generation, my Charlotte, my nibling. I feel like it' ; s, if anything, going there helps build a memory for me. Like I don' ; t think I got a good idea of-- besides like the natural environment, what grandfather lived through, like I feel like that' ; s more of like history and reading the--listening to the oral histories. But it' ; s something that I, a memory that I have from when I was like 27, so that now in the future, when my memories are less good or maybe when I have forgotten, like I can definitely still remember standing there. And I can remember seeing the guard tower, and I have the photo of me and my family there. So I think if anything, the pilgrimage is like a way to kind of bring these stories one step into the future. EL: I' ; m wondering, you' ; ve talked a lot about healing and of course that' ; s an ongoing process, but what for you personally have been some of the most effective sources of healing? CL: Mmm, I think, I have two sisters, my older sister is three years older than me and my younger sister is three years younger than me, and we' ; re-- now as adults very close. And I think that our sister chat is one of the most healing things that, that I have because it' ; s just like a processing space. And I know that other people don' ; t always have people who are-- have-- who share such similar histories as we do, but it' ; s someplace that I can go to be like here' ; s what I' ; m learning from history overall, here' ; s what I' ; m learning from my family' ; s history, here' ; s what I' ; m feeling and living in my everyday life, and like here' ; s what I feel like is emotionally blocking me. Like my therapy stuff. And all of those four together I can talk about. And I feel like that' ; s really where I' ; ve been finding a good site of healing. And so it' ; s not just the sister chat it' ; s also with Nikkei Uprising folks, it' ; s also with just friends, it' ; s also with other folks from different Asian diasporas. But where I can talk about the personal and the political together, and how that' ; s like mixing in my body, that feels like where I' ; m finding the most amount of healing. EL: And, what gives you hope? CL: I heard a quote recently and I' ; m going to have to remember-- I feel-- I don' ; t remember who the poet is but it' ; s a Chicago poet, I' ; ll look it up and then we could add it to the notes later. But the quote said, " ; Children are the world' ; s ability to begin again and again." ; And that has been sitting with me very powerfully as I see my nibling Charlotte being raised. She' ; s like a generation where, like, she' ; s even more mixed that I am, like her, her father is like Jewish-German heritage, and then also Okinawan-Japanese-and-Taiwanese. But my mother is babysitting her a lot, and they' ; re-- she' ; s speaking to her almost like entirely in Japanese at this point, so Charlotte' ; s being raised with like a lot of Japanese language, and she can read and she' ; s excited. And she can talk to my ah-ma now a little bit and they speak to each other in their little baby Japanese. And I' ; m just thinking about how powerful it is that she' ; s growing up after we' ; ve kind of processed all this incarceration trauma. Like my sister is telling her these things as a 2-year-old now whereas like I-- was like-- I don' ; t know, we didn' ; t even talk about camp until I was like in high school! So I feel like, that is giving me a lot of hope that like, yes it' ; s really hard because the world is very traumatic and fu-- like on top of so many bad things to heal through that. But like, Charlotte hasn' ; t experienced any of those bad things, and if we can like give it to her and like explain to her without building more personal trauma for her, that' ; s so powerful! Like, a young person who doesn' ; t have the years of assimilation trauma? Tha-- like I don' ; t even know who I would be if I didn' ; t have that now. EL: As we wrap this up, I' ; d like for you to-- you' ; ve touched on it already but I' ; d like for you to, to address again your motivations for participating in this oral history project, CL: Yeah [nodding] EL: an-- and maybe if you could connect it to the experience of sitting in on your grandfather' ; s interview CL: Oh yeah [nodding] EL: as well, and your experience assisting with transcriptions of other interviews ' ; cause it' ; s a-- I think it' ; s all tied together. CL: Yeah, okay I might need more prompting on that question, but I think the fi-- the, my motivations for this, for participating are that I would now like to contribute to the river of time. When, I think even last year I had thought about the oral histories as remembering something from the past, and I kind of forgot that the present is the past of the future. And so I feel like even though I' ; m not historically significant, I feel like I' ; m participating really actively in the present. And so that is kind of what I want to, to pass on. It too, like I do feel like it' ; s really historical what Nikkei Uprising, Nikkei Resistors, JAs for Justice, Tsuru for Solidarity, New York Day of Remembrance, all of these national nikkei orgs who are now connected, the fact that we are connected, the fact that we' ; re doing stuff, like that feels a little bit historical for me so I wanted to get that on the record. EL: And then, the experience of sitting in on your grandfather' ; s interview an-- and how that connects to doing-- deciding to do your own? CL: Yes, I really appreciated sitting on my grandfather' ; s interview and I think it helped me see the-- yeah maybe the significance of my family' ; s story. Like it doesn' ; t, it doesn' ; t feel particularly like power-- like I don' ; t feel like there' ; s any particular lessons to pull from it. But I think that I, I guess I saw how his life has been woven into the Chicago JA history, pretty like, yeah like integratedly. And it helped me pull together other pieces of the network. That is--the other thing that besides the river of time, the other analogy that I am focused on is like the mycelium network, like the idea that like mushrooms all have these like tiny roots that go underneath the, the ground and it' ; s just one cell at a time that is creating this connected network that fuels the whole forest. And that' ; s really how I feel like the JA community works right now, or it works over time, is that it' ; s just one person talking to one person and then they pass along the information, or they pass along a call to action, or they pass along food to give to someone' ; s cousin. Like that' ; s how the JA community taught me how to take care of community, and I think through the oral histories you can kind of see that happening even if you can' ; t experience it. EL: Thank you, is there anything else that you would like to have on the record for future generations to hear? CL: I think the, the last thing that I think I would just want to say is that our concept of what it means to be Japanese has shifted so drastically from the time that we came as formerly Japanese people or people who lived in the country of Japan to where I am right now. And the concept of being Asian is already changing throughout my lifetime, and so I see a lot of potential in that, and I hope that people are actively shaping what that means in the future. To be actively shaping what it means to be Japanese American. I think before, when I was growing up, there was really a concept of being similar to what is in Japan, carrying the cultures and traditions that had been in Japan, and having the blood, like your parental genealogy. Those were all what it meant to be Japanese. And now I' ; m seeing those all as being--especially the, the blood quantum idea, I would like us to move away from. Like, I' ; ve stopped saying that I am half-Japanese and half-Taiwanese and I' ; ve started saying that I' ; m just mixed. And, yeah, I feel like there is a lot more potential in that, and I don' ; t think race is real, so cool. [laughs] EL: I think maybe we can end on that note. Thank you so much for participating. CL: Thank you! Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinCori20210519.xml LinCori20210519.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1 ","Yonsei^^Cultural Reclamation^^Church of Christ Presbyterian^^Nikkei Uprising^^Activism^^Generational Trauma^^Healing",4200,,"Oral History Interview: Lin, Cori Nakamura (12/15/2022)
Oral History Interview: Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021)",,,,,"Lin, Cori Nakamura",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/7ff030c545c45ebb1b201135a28a07e5.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
13,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/13,"Machida, Ethan Michihiko (3/23/2021)","Japanese American Families--Michigan^^ Japanese American college students^^ ","Ethan Machida is a first-generation Japanese American born in Sapporo, Japan. His mother is American, of Scottish descent, and his father is Japanese. When he was three years old, Ethan and his family moved to the United States, to a town in northern Michigan called Frankfort. After living there for about 10 years, the family moved for Ethan's father's work, which took them to Coldwater, Michigan. In college, Ethan first studied engineering before feeling called to pastoral studies, which brought him to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. As a young adult, Ethan decided to engage more with Japanese language, food, and Christian Japanese religious history in order to reconnect with his personal Japanese identity and ancestry.",,,,2021-03-23,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MachidaEthan20210323.xml," 5.4 3/23/2021 Machida, Ethan Michihiko (3/23/2021) 26:57:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese American Families--Michigan Japanese American college students Shin-Issei Mixed Japanese Ancestry Sapporo Moody Bible Institute Christianity Religion Michigan Machida, Ethan Michihiko Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|19(10)|38(5)|57(7)|73(7)|99(7)|111(14)|124(10)|136(5)|161(10)|179(7)|190(2)|202(3)|221(7)|233(8)|244(3)|255(12)|268(14)|281(4)|292(2)|302(11)|314(13)|328(6)|340(13)|353(4)|362(3)|372(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/553128960/7e00dd8f90 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553128960?h=7e00dd8f90" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ethan Machida is a first-generation Japanese American born in Sapporo, Japan. His mother is American, of Scottish descent, and his father is Japanese. When he was three years old, Ethan and his family moved to the United States, to a town in northern Michigan called Frankfort. After living there for about 10 years, the family moved for Ethan Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is March 23rd 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N Clark St. in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Ethan Machida. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay, so to start off with, I' ; m just going to ask you a few background questions for context. So if you could please state your full name? Ethan Machida (EM): My name is Ethan Michihiko Machida. EL: And in what year were you born? EM: 1998. EL: And where were you born? EM: I was born in Sapporo, yeah in Hokkaido, Japan. EL: So, could you tell me a little bit about your parents? EM: Yeah, so my mother is white American, Scottish descent, and then my dad is Japanese. He was born in the near, near Kannami I think, yup. EL: And when and how did they meet? EM: So they met in Japan... It' ; s kind of funny because my dad was a foreign exchange student to the US from Japan as a high schooler. And then he also went to undergrad and graduate school in the US, and then went back to Japan. And then my mom went to Japan and then they met there. She was involved with the local church, and then through her friends got connected with my dad there. EL: And then when did your family come to the US as a family? EM: When I was three years old, so at that point my mom would have been living in Japan for 12 years total up to that point. EL: Do you know when they first came to the US, at that time did they plan for it to be a permanent move? EM: Maybe not permanent, but at the very least long term just because they thought it was important for the--for us kids being bicultural, to have sufficient exposure in each homeland. EL: And where did you move to when you first came to the US? EM: So we moved to northern Michigan to a city called Frankfort. It was like maybe 1000 people, mostly white, and my mom had friends that lived in that area. And since at that time it was a poorer economic situation, and so that' ; s also where job opportunity was available. EL: So did your parents have work lined up for themselves before they came? EM: Kinda, yeah not very solidly. My dad' ; s job in Japan ended, so then my mom' ; s friend just encouraged them to come over to the US and said that " ; Hey you' ; ll probably be able to find a job." ; EL: And then did you stay in that part of Michigan, or did you move from there? EM: Yeah we stayed for a while until I was in the end of middle school so it would have been like ten--about 10 years we stayed in that city. And then we moved again for my dad' ; s job to a part in lower Michigan called Coldwater, Michigan. It was maybe 10,000 people, and much more diversity. And there was--so there was no Japanese community in Frankfort, Michigan but in Coldwater, there was. Not significant, but it was still present. EL: Okay so in your early childhood you were living in a place that really didn' ; t have any other Japanese American or Japanese families to speak of, but, but then you moved to a place that was more diverse? EM: Yeah, yup. And then yeah throughout that whole time, our grandparents and maybe some aunts, uncles, cousins would come visit maybe once a year and hang out for about 2 weeks or so. So we would have that kind of exposure. And then in Coldwater, there was a few car manufacturing companies and then they would bring Japanese executives to stay for a year or two years. They would bring their families and then for whatever reason our--our family always got in contact with them and made friendships so there' ; s that connection. EL: So the, so the community that you had in Coldwater was more Japanese expatriates-- EM: Yeah. EL: --than Japanese Americans. EM: Right, yup. EL: And then do your parents still live in that area, or... EM: Mhmm, yeah. And yeah they' ; re happy there and I think the community' ; s a good fit for them. EL: So when did you come to Chicago? EM: So I came to Chicago in 2018 to start studies at Moody Bible Institute. Originally I was studying engineering in northern Michigan at Michigan Technological University, but then decided to switch majors to pastoral studies. EL: And when you came to Chicago did you know anybody here? EM: No I was-- yeah no connections. I' ; m very grateful for the-- The communal aspect of Christianity. That, as you' ; re involved with the church, ideally people ought to welcome you as part of their community. So definitely being engaged with the local church was such a lucrative opportunity for finding community quickly. EL: Is that something that you grew up with, or is it something that you explored as an adult? EM: I think it' ; s both. We grew up going to church on Sundays, my mom is a Christian and my dad isn' ; t. Oddly enough, he was very supportive of us practicing Christianity, and the values in Christian belief system he was very supportive of. But it wasn' ; t till maybe high school age that I--I took it more seriously and tried to explore it for myself and invest more time into it. EL: So, to take it back a little bit when your family first came to the US, or actually prior to that when your father came alone as a young man has he ever talked to you about how it felt to him to leave Japan? EM: Yeah and he' ; s a funny character I think. Somewhat, somewhat rebellious, very adventurous and entrepreneurial. So he was very open-minded about coming to America. And his father gave him the opportunity to send him to a university in Japan or send him to America. So he chose the America route and was eager to go. I think at the end of his time in America he was a little bit homesick so he was happy to return. EL: And when your parents got married, did he feel very accepted by your mother' ; s family? EM: Yeah, in--in general. So my mother' ; s father actually fought in the Pacific theater of World War II. And one of the--the things that my uncles on my mother' ; s side of the family say it was kind of poetic justice that from my American grandfather' ; s time in World War II, he fostered uh--I think you could even call it a racism towards Japanese and--yeah that existed, and then by the time my mother got married, I guess supposedly it toned down enough for him to accept my father as, as part of the family. But the rest of my family is very, or the American side is very... Welcoming of him, and even--at family reunions it' ; s kind of weird ' ; cause me, my siblings, and my dad are the only colored people in the family reunion. But we' ; re still just as equally loved and as equally embraced. EL: How many siblings do you have? EM: Two siblings, one sister, one younger brother. My sister is a year older, and she just got married two years ago. And then my brother is a high school in senior--ah senior in high school. EL: So you mentioned that when you were growing up your relatives from Japan would come to visit-- EM: Mhmm. EL: --and I' ; m wondering if there' ; s maybe some other ways that you stayed in touch with them during that time, how did you--your family remain connected to friends and family back in Japan? EM: Mostly with phone calls and packages, yeah we would call maybe--or I know that my parents would call them once or twice a month and they would--we would send packages to each other a few times throughout the year. EL: Do you remember what was in those packages? EM: Yeah lots of Japanese candy, or the, the plastic like figures that you' ; d punch out of the molds and then put together. Yeah. EL: And since, since the initial move to the US when you were three, have you or any of your family members gone back to Japan? EM: Yeah, so my, my dad and sister--of our nuclear family went back. My dad would go back every once in a while for business trips, and then my sister after leaving high school--or graduating high school, she took a trip to Japan also. One of the things our parents want us to do or wanted us to do is that right after graduating high school, we would go to a foreign country by ourselves for like a month or so, so she chose to go to Japan. EL: And where did you go? EM: I chose to go to Scotland. My Japanese is very little so... And I also, I hate depending on translators, so when I go back to Jam--Japan, I would want to have my language skills refined much better, yeah. EL: Do you feel that your parents made efforts while you were growing up to transmit Japanese culture to you? EM: I definitely think so, aside from the, the food aspect of cooking Japanese food there are--I think a heightened sense of humility and self-sacrifice that seem characteristic of Japanese culture, that they were impressing on us as kids that I didn' ; t really notice in any of my American peers. So yeah, along with the cultural values, they use a bit of slang words in Japanese, talk about political differences. So they were, yeah, still intentional to incorporate it. EL: I' ; m curious to know, when you would interact with some of those Japanese expat families, as a child or young adult how did you feel during those encounters? EM: I always felt somewhat odd, or as if I didn' ; t fully fit in or so with the American community. I' ; m too Japanese to be fully American, with the Japanese community I' ; m too American to be Japanese. So there' ; s that maybe unspoken barrier of feeling fully in the community, but then it still wasn' ; t anything significant to make me cast out or shunned or anything. EL: And did you, or--or have you had much interaction with Japanese Americans whose families had been in the country for longer? EM: When I came to Chicago, yes. Just because some of my classmates were also Japanese Americans so yeah we would eat lunch together, hang out every once in a while. EL: So, so that was not really until--what you' ; re 18, 19 years old before you-- EM: Right. EL: --become a little bit more aware of another category of Japanese Americans. EM: Right yeah, before then it was mostly exposure to Japanese, and not so much Japanese Americans. EL: And did you learn much about Japanese immigration history, or Japanese American incarceration in school? EM: Yeah briefly though, I think probably to the same extent that I would have learned about Chinese Americans or maybe even--I don' ; t know Arab Americans. So there' ; re... Yeah there were some aspects that we' ; d learn about like the incarceration camps, or even like I think in the 1960s, 70s, the riots that would happen. And especially being in close proximity to Detroit, in Novi, Michigan there are a lot of, I think more conversations that I heard about Japanese Americans in that time and kind of how as the car company manufacturers became more prominent there--they incurred some more hate, yeah. EL: Do you remember when you were first learning about those things, did you feel connected to the people that had that happen to them? Or did you feel like you were just learning about--it could have been any group of people? EM: Yeah I think more towards the second option, it seemed like a--a group of people. Mostly because, I wonder if it was the, the lack of pictures or stuff that I saw ' ; cause it was like mostly words. Yeah, then again that also made more, more clear the reality that in, in some circumstance, that could be me, that could be my, that could be my experience. So, even though I didn' ; t feel fully connected with the experience, it was still a opportunity of realization. EL: So, I' ; d like to kind of switch gears a little bit an--and explore your experiences here in Chicago. And I' ; m wondering to what extent have you felt welcome by Chicago' ; s Japanese American community? EM: I think t--to the extent that I put myself out there, welcomed. So I haven' ; t done much on my own part to engage, and I think for the Japanese community--Japanese American community, if they don' ; t know that I' ; m here then they can' ; t necessarily welcome me. But especially with JASC, there' ; s so many opportunities that they' ; re inviting anyone to come be a part of. Even with like the, the origami group, I signed up and they were very welcoming for me to come. EL: And I guess I' ; m curious to know, when you, when you meet people within this community do you feel any need to explain your own family narrative? EM: I think when I was younger, there was kind of like a, a shame for like the, the amount of Japanese culture--or the amount of distance that I' ; ve had with Japanese culture, and making excuses like " ; Oh well my, my parents didn' ; t raise me much with it" ; or " ; There are other priorities" ; or " ; I was busy with other stuff." ; And even though I think it is sad that I' ; ve, I' ; ve lost touch with a bit of Japanese culture, I think I' ; ve come to terms with it and I' ; m--mostly because as of now I' ; m trying to get back into it. That I think posture of re-engagement kind of helps me feel more comfortable with being, yeah being in the Japanese American community. EL: So what are some of the things that you' ; ve done to try and re-engage or reclaim this piece of your heritage? EM: I think one, definitely language study, in the summers I try to do whatever programs I can to bring back the vocabulary and the grammar, and listening to more Japanese music and intentionally buying recipes where I' ; ll be cooking Japanese foods to kind of hold onto those cultural aspects. Also, looking back more into history, especially Japanese Christian history as Christianity is a big part of my identity, and I know that it' ; s been seen as maybe antithetical, or somewhat unnatural to Japanese culture. Even though there' ; s kinda a not so well known about history of Christianity in Japan, so to study more about figures such as Toyohiko Kagawa, have been kind of, some of those other ways. EL: As you were growing up, did you know very many other mixed race, specifically other Japanese mixed with another race, families or children? EM: Mmm, not that I can think of, yeah I think, yeah growing up, very little exposure. EL: And, especially when you were living in, in the less diverse location, did you ever experience bias or prejudice that you were aware of as a child? EM: I think yes, but in, in a good way, where people made the uneducated stereotypes that oh, just because I' ; m Asian I' ; m smart, or I know karate so don' ; t mess with him. Or...Being, being different or unique, in that context was looked at as a good thing or like a cool thing, so in, in that situation it played toward my benefit. Even though I understand that for a lot of other people it normally plays towards their own downfall. So I was privileged in that area. EL: Do you think that your parents are able to fully grasp your experiences growing up in this country being half? EM: I haven' ; t thought about that question before. To one extent I would say, at least minimally, because they both know what it' ; s like to be an outsider in a majority culture. Maybe to the extent that not being a--or not having a full sense of belonging to either side, I--I don' ; t think they could real--identify much with that. Because, yeah while my mom was in America she could still fully relate to the American expats or even Americans back at home and same for my dad with the Japanese. And so yeah, for myself I think the, one of the unique feelings is not necessarily feeling like I fit into both, but when there is another Japanese American there' ; s that connection kind of maybe brings us closer in a, I don' ; t know, odd mystical way. EL: There are a lot of words they get used to--to describe people who are mixed race like us. Sometimes we refer to ourselves as half, or hafu, sometimes, sometimes it' ; s double, right? Some people use the term hapa, do any of those terms resonate with you? EM: To some extent, my, my dad would jokingly say " ; Don' ; t let anybody call you half." ; So from that I picked up that it was kind of more of a derogatory term. And so maybe in like self-deprecating jokes I would refer to myself as half. And then the, the peers that I were around there weren' ; t very culturally aware, or aware of diversity and the reality, so it would be much easier to call myself just Japanese rather than white or Japanese American mhmm. EL: And do you think your specific geographic location had a big impact on the types of experiences you had? EM: In comparison to others I--I would say so. If I was in maybe rural South America I might experience more-- I don' ; t know, more of a feeling of outcast or not, not belonging, or maybe if I was on West Coast, maybe I would see a lot more Japanese Americans and be more exposed to that culture. EL: This might seem a strange question, but I' ; m just curious to know if you' ; ve ever wondered what your life would have been like if your parents had chosen to stay in Japan? EM: Hmm, I haven' ; t thought about that, yeah. ' ; Cause I very much appreciate my experiences in the US, and definitely there' ; s been a lot of blessings from it and benefits from it. I definitely see that it would be different, and... Yeah so, when y--I, I don' ; t think I would have as much exposure to the Hispanic or Arab communities that I' ; ve had here if I were to be in Japan. I think a lot of the American mentalities or cultural values I probably wouldn' ; t be so understanding of if I were to grow up in Japan. So, I think those are some things that come to mind. EL: And do you still feel very connected to your family that' ; s in Japan? EM: Yeah, yeah we even have a group chat and so actually--maybe a month or t--yeah about a month ago my grandfather passed away from my Japanese side of the family. And even then we' ; re--I think yeah, all the more communicative, but, yeah we still send each other emails, or follow each other on social media. And that' ; s more of a surface, surface level way of connection, but then there' ; s also like the phone calls and relaying messages through other people and taking visits, mhmm. EL: What motivated you to participate in this oral history project? EM: I thought, yeah, just to... To share another, or let myself be a data point reference. I--yeah I' ; m not sure how much significance or relevance my story would have for, for anybody but for whatever it' ; s worth, I thought to offer it. EL: And specifically with regard to the Japanese American Service Committee, you mentioned to me that you' ; ve been receiving the emails, with announcements of things going on and that this is one of the, the first times that you' ; ve taken the step of engaging, right? And I' ; m curious to know, what would you like to see from specifically JASC, but also the larger Japanese American community moving forward? EM: I think yeah part--partly my, my answer would be ignorant since I haven' ; t seen all that JASC does. From, from the reports that I see or different stuff on social media and through the emails, I think they do a lot so I' ; m impressed by their activity and grateful for their intentionality. Maybe, maybe some more collaboration with different groups in Uptown in specific, I think would help promote JASC, help their presence be known more, and maybe open up more opportunities for them to be part of the community and serve and impact the community. EL: And then I guess my, my final question is what do you most want people to know or understand about you and your life experiences? EM: Mmm, I' ; m, I' ; m definitely a product of my environment, but there' ; s been so much undeserved goodness that I received from--and I, I truly, truly have to be humble. Because yeah, everything that I' ; ve received is a gift, and that my-- Yeah my, my Christian perspective of having God as the center and being able to relate through Jesus is very transformative for myself. I know that not everybody is into religion and not necessarily favorable to it, but I think that' ; s been the, the biggest impactor of my life. EL: I think we' ; ve covered most of the questions that I had prepared ahead of time, but I wanted to leave space for you in case there was anything that you felt we hadn' ; t yet talked about, that you would like an opportunity to share. EM: Mmm, yeah nothing, yeah nothing really comes to mind. EL: Okay, then I think we' ; ll conclude the interview there. EM: Okay. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MachidaEthan20210323.xml MachidaEthan20210323.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1 ","Shin-Issei^^ Mixed Japanese Ancestry^^ Sapporo^^ Moody Bible Institute^^ Christianity^^ Religion^^ Michigan",4500,,,,,,,"Machida, Ethan Michihiko",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/73a865285ff955ab383f837f0aa32780.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
5,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/5,"Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021)","Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949","Tom Kazumi Nakamura was born in Marysville, California in 1928. Growing up on a peach farm, Tom attended a small school in rural northern California along with his siblings. At the age of 14, Tom and his family were forced to sell their possessions and take only what they could carry as they were sent to “camp” by the US Government, via Executive Order 9066. After being taken to the Merced assembly center, Tom and his family were incarcerated in Amache. After the war, Tom enlisted in the Navy, training in naval photography. This translated to his work later on, as after discharge he moved back to California, and planned to make his way to New York to attend photography school paid by the GI bill, taking small jobs along the way. Instead, he met an old friend from camp in Chicago, William Yamamoto, and the two of them took LaSalle Photo, a small photo developing shop, and grew it into a company that at its peak employed hundreds of nisei and other individuals in the Chicagoland area. Tom shares memories of meeting his wife, Patsy, and their first date, as well as stories of his family, and his relationship with religion. One of his grandchildren, Cori Lin, joins him in this interview.",,,,2021-03-16,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma Saito",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NakamuraTom20210316.xml," 5.4 3/16/2021 Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021) 1:20:57 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949 Nisei Amache Navy LaSalle Photo Yuba City Chicago Resettlers Committee Moody Bible Church Nakamura, Tom Kazumi Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|19(12)|26(11)|34(8)|43(7)|50(12)|59(12)|68(13)|78(3)|86(14)|96(8)|106(8)|114(16)|123(7)|133(16)|143(7)|153(9)|163(4)|173(10)|184(3)|194(9)|203(5)|212(1)|230(11)|241(9)|262(6)|270(3)|280(10)|303(7)|313(13)|324(11)|338(6)|348(4)|355(15)|365(4)|377(6)|386(12)|396(9)|405(10)|415(15)|428(3)|437(9)|447(11)|464(3)|474(1)|483(15)|494(7)|507(12)|515(14)|525(2)|532(2)|542(4)|549(12)|558(8)|574(2)|585(1)|599(3)|608(11)|623(5)|631(4)|638(2)|645(4)|658(1)|666(13)|675(7)|686(2)|694(5)|704(6)|717(12)|730(11)|741(8)|753(14)|764(16)|776(13)|786(10)|796(1)|808(6)|818(5)|826(2)|833(14)|850(5) 0 https://vimeo.com/553146996/e8e8f217b6 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553146996" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Tom Kazumi Nakamura was born in Marysville, California in 1928. Growing up on a peach farm, Tom attended a small school in rural northern California along with his siblings. At the age of 14, Tom and his family were forced to sell their possessions and take only what they could carry as they were sent to “camp” by the US Government, via Executive Order 9066. After being taken to the Merced assembly center, Tom and his family were incarcerated in Amache. After the war, Tom enlisted in the Navy, training in naval photography. This translated to his work later on, as after discharge he moved back to California, and planned to make his way to New York to attend photography school paid by the GI bill, taking small jobs along the way. Instead, he met an old friend from camp in Chicago, William Yamamoto, and the two of them took LaSalle Photo, a small photo developing shop, and grew it into a company that at its peak employed hundreds of nisei and other individuals in the Chicagoland area. Tom shares memories of meeting his wife, Patsy, and their first date, as well as stories of his family, and his relationship with religion. One of his grandchildren, Cori Lin, joins him in this interview. Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): So today is March 16th, 2021, and this oral history interview is being recorded remotely due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln of the JASC Legacy Center, and the interviewee is Tom Kazumi Nakamura. Also participating in the interview is Tom' ; s granddaughter, Cori Lin. This interview is being recorded by the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Shall we begin? Tom Kazumi Nakamura (TN): Let' ; s begin. EL: So Tom we' ; re going to start with some basic biographical details just for context, okay? TN: Alright. EL: And if you wouldn' ; t mind stating your full name please, that' ; s a good place to start. TN: My name is Tom Kazumi Nakamura, I was born on August 25th, 1928, makes me about 92 years old and climbing. And I was born in a hospital in Marysville, California and because that was in the, in the 20s, that was at end of the depression, and they only had one major hospital. But the rest of my life, I was born--raised in the next town called Yuba City, California which was a farming community, mostly fruits and a few truck farming, but mostly fruit farming. Peaches, prunes, pears, apples, and etcetera. And I was raised on a peach farm, and this goes back to a town near Yuba City called Tudor, California. A little town with a, maybe a mercantile store, and a barber shop, and a few others. I remember a shoe, shoe repair shop but it was one of those stops as you go along Hwy 20 going towards Sacramento. And well I--I can' ; t remember, probably from about 6, 7 years old I was mainly speaking Japanese, I didn' ; t know too much English except for speaking to my brothers and sisters, they spoke English, but I spoke mainly to my mother and my father. So I was speaking, I was raised speaking Japanese. And then when I went to elementary school, then of course I was kind of forced to speak English so, so English became my primary language, but I still, when I speak to my parents or their friends I still spoke Japanese. And I went to a school called Wilson Elementary School. It was a little country, country school. They had two big rooms, one room contained kindergarten to 4th grade and then the other one from 5th grade to 8th grade. So, so I don' ; t know how they did it but we had one teacher in one one class and another teacher in another class and they, they taught four grades each. And this, this is a kind of a country school, so I can' ; t remember whether we were, while the other classes were being taught, I don' ; t know what we did, maybe we threw paper clips or rubber bands at each other but I can' ; t remember. [laughs] But it was a little small country school, and each class had maybe about 10 or 12 students. And after Wilson Elementary School, well I was in the 7th grade and, and that year there was a, a great flood. Well we lived along what they call the Feather River which came down from the Sierra Nevadas. And each year, in the old days, they had these Chinese laborers build up these levees on both side of the river so it won' ; t flood. And each year this, when the spring, in the spring, when the, the snow started melting in the Sierra Nevadas, this huge amount of water would come down the Feather River and the, and this one particular year I think it was 1940--thir--1938, 39, or 40 I can' ; t remember but the levee started to to overflow. So they called every able-bodied person to come and try to fight the, the river, levee, for the river from overflowing. And then my, my older brother, my father, my older brother Jimmy, and my older brother Joe they, they all got into a truck with a shovel and they started going up to the levee, fill it up with, filling the levee with sandbags and they' ; re, they' ; re, I can' ; t remember how many people went there, but after awhile they came back and says " ; We can' ; t hold the levee back the water is overflowing" ; . So we all got onto this truck, and we move--moved to near Yuba City. We had a friend in Yuba City and we had all moved to their place, and after the floods we went back there, and we went to see the levee, and the levee was, I would say maybe about four footbi-football field wide and it just flooded the, the whole area there. Fortunately, because a lot of time they do it intentionally because if the country wasn' ; t flooded that city of Yuba City and Marysville will be flooded so a lot of times they intentionally cut the levee to flood the, the orchards. So, but this one here I don' ; t think it was done intentionally but, but uh, the, the floods just, after the flood receded, we got back on the truck and we took a tour about, around the area where we lived. And I remember, the first thing I remember was, somebody' ; s outdoor toilet was in our yard. [laughs] It just, the-the flood just brought the toilet into our yard. I don' ; t know what happened to our-our toilet because you know everybody had outdoor toilets. And the thing I remember when we were driving along, and we saw this railroad. The flood just twisted the railroads, we were looking down the, the railroad line, it' ; s just like a curve. And along the railroad track there were cows, and they were just bloated up, I just remember that because I was still about 12, 13 years old at that time. So after, after the flood, my brother found another place near Tudor, and we started going to another school called Central Gaither Elementary School and, and we were attending, I was in 8th grade at that time. And we were in this, it was Sunday, December 7th, we were in this Japanese school because my parents wanted us to learn Japanese, so they had this little country Japanese school, and we were attending the Japanese school, and our teacher' ; s name was Mr. Gouda. And he was a Japanese teacher also in the town of Marysville, but every Sunday he would, he would go out to the country, and teach some of the country people Japanese. So, I remember I was in the third grade, I was just learning some kanji, and I was learning this fude, how to write Japanese words with this Japanese brush. And it was in the eighth grade, we were just studying the constitution, in order to graduate 8th grade we had to memorize the constitution of the United States. And this is the irony of it, when we were studying the constitution we were looking out this classroom window, and we see this military people with Jeeps. And they got out and they' ; re on the telephone pole outside they' ; re tacking this thing on the telephone pole and we were just wondered why they were doing that. So at recess time we all ran outside and we were looking at this sign that says uh it was Executive Order 66, 90 I think it was signed by President Franklin Roosevelt. And it says, " ; All people of Japanese and Japanese descent we have to evacuate this area" ; . So, so when the principal read this notice, they ran out too, and says, " ; Okay all of you, pe--Japanese peo--children go home. You know, so after they posted that, we left school, we went home and by that time my brother--my brothers and my sister they read the sign and they says, " ; Well we have to get ready to evacuate" ; because they only give us, abou--I think it was about 10 days or so. And they says, " ; Just bring anything that you can carry' ; ' ; , and here I was looking around, I says, " ; Anything I can carry" ; . I had a lot of toys and things like that, I didn' ; t know which one to bring. And uh, and my father says, " ; Well don' ; t worry it' ; s not gonna last too long, so we' ; ll be back" ; . So I says, " ; Oh, okay" ; . So I went under the--this house that we were renting, and I hid all of my toys underneath the, the house. And thinking that we will go back, the-the most precious thing that I got was a microscope. It was one of those toy microscopes, it was about 3X magnification, and that was one of the precious things that I had, these little box games that I hid under the crawl space there, thinking that we' ; ll be back, but I don' ; t know what ever happened to it. But, but it was one of those things that we had to, we had to decide what to carry, so everybody was busy. And my brothers were busy trying to get rid of the refrigerator and the household things. And people would-would come around and saying, " ; I' ; ll give you 50 cents for that, I' ; ll give you a dollar for that." ; And the refrigerator, somebody says, " ; I' ; ll give you 50 cents" ; , and somebody else says, " ; I' ; ll give you a dollar" ; so my brother says, " ; Take it." ; So the refrigerator sold for a dollar. And one thing I remember was our car. We saved up, I don' ; t know how many years, we saved up to buy a car. So finally it was a 19, 1938 Ford and we paid $785. I remember that we had all this cash accumulated we didn' ; t--at that time my father didn' ; t believe in banks, so we just had it hidden away. So he gave it to my brother and my brother went to Yuba Cit--to Marysville to this car dealer and bought this car. And we were all so proud of it, and it was, it was color was black and that' ; s what Henry Ford says you could order any color, but you' ; re gonna get a black car. So all the Ford cars in those days were black. So when-when my brother brought that thing back, he was the only one that had a driver' ; s license. But we all got into the car, we was just driving around the country and I says, I still remember I says, " ; Oh, no more walking, no more bicycling" ; you know? We could ride in this car, because we always have to get a ride to go into town. And some people would say " ; I' ; m going to town, do you want to go?" ; So said " ; Okay" ; so they would come and pick us up and bring us to town but now with our own car we was just going to town whenever we wanted to. So it was, it was something that we were so proud of because everybody was chipping in into the family fund to buy this car. Well by the time evacuation come this car was only about 2 years old. And this, one guy came and says, " ; I' ; ll g--" ; we-we never got any offers on the car everything else everybody was picking up we just giving things away actually towards the end. And this one guy came and says, " ; Hey I hear y-you have a car that you want to sell." ; We says, " ; Yeah we paid 700-something a couple of years ago" ; . He says, " ; Well I' ; ll give you $100." ; So he had $100 cash, so my brother says " ; Well we can' ; t help it." ; You know, my-we w-the Japanese we would use the word shikata ga nai I, I don' ; t know if you under-you know what that is. But this is, this is the attitude that we had, we, you know had no other choice shikata ga nai. So I remember my mother telling me this story about the willow tree, it' ; s a Japanese story it says " ; You have to be a willow tree, if you, if you be a willow tree, the wind comes and blows but the willow just gives way to the, to the wind, and it won' ; t break. If you try to be a strong, stout tree the wind' ; s gonna come and break your branches." ; So, so that story and the shikata ga nai that' ; s, that' ; s what we felt from the time that this evacuation started. And something that we couldn' ; t do anything about it' ; s something that they posted up, we didn' ; t know anything about. But, well that time we were studying the constitution but, but all that just went out the window, it didn' ; t mean that much. Because you know later on I find out that every American citizen is, is entitled to a fair trial. And of course we didn' ; t know anything about that, the constitution. You know when you' ; re about 13 years old it doesn' ; t mean too much. But of course there are, a lot of the older niseis that understood this, so there was a guy named Fred Korematsu, you' ; ve probably heard of him, and there' ; s some other guys that, well, understood what the constitution of the United States was. So of course they, they fought for all of the Japanese Americans but after that we were, after we got through the-they came by. I think it was a Greyhound bus or some kind of a bus, that we all got on to. We just carried one suitcase, my, my dad was carrying two suitcases, my, my brothers were-were all carrying whatever they could hand-handle and they were throwing it on top of the bus. And it took us to this Marysville train station, and this Marysville train station, oh we a--we all got together we saw a lot of our friends all together. So we weren' ; t aware of what' ; s happening, but we just greeted each other and says " ; Well I don' ; t know where this train is going to go" ; and nobody knew where it was going to go. And my brothers were helping with the other people loading all of their luggage, well they had to put ID' ; s on their bags, and they had these little cardboard tags that' ; s, with a string around it. You write your name on there, and then you just put it on the tag, they would just throw the whole thing into the train. And once the train was loaded down they, they said " ; Everybody to, get into the train." ; So we all got into the train. I still remember the train had these chairs that flip-flop, if the train is going one way you' ; d flop the ch-chair and you' ; d be heading the same way with the train. And to my brother and I it was kind of a thrilling experience because this was our first train ride, you know, we never rode a train before. So it was kind of exciting. And as soon as we started moving, the soldiers I didn' ; t know they' ; re military or police, all I knew were that there were soldiers. They came through the train and told us, " ; Pull the blinds down." ; So we all pulled the blinds down. So after that we didn' ; t know where we were going we were-we couldn' ; t look out the window but-[coughs] Excuse me. Several hours later, they told us to open the blinds because the train stopped, and we looked out the window and they had these military convoy trucks and some buses. And we were all told to get out and get onto the trus-truck or the bus, so we got onto the, the, you know older people, they got on to the bus because they couldn' ; t get on to the top, top of the truck. So, but my brothers and I, we jumped on to the back of the truck and then we were taken to this Merced assembly center. We didn' ; t know where we were because when we opened up the shade we saw a lot of people out there and we didn' ; t know what was going on and we didn' ; t even know we were going to this camp because nobody, nobody knew about this assembly center. And I don' ; t know how they built assembly centers so fast because from December 7th you know, must have took ' ; em a couple of months and they had all this built up already. And also, not, this is what they called the Merced assembly center, and of course, after they assembled everybody, give ' ; em, gave ' ; em time to build these relocation centers in the different states, you know? You know, Tule Lake and Idaho, Arizona, Poston, and all those areas. But when we went to the Merced assembly center, the families just got together, and we had all of our nimotsu or baggage together, and then they would, they would come along and says, okay, they would give us a--this uh, I forgot what it was but it was like a sheet of paper. And this says okay, this is, this is your home so you--this is your apartment. And I just remember on the paper had D-311 so, so later on we all--my brother' ; s holding onto the paper, and they--and then--he' ; s--they' ; re giving us a description of what the assem--relocation center was like. Says, each one of these, the D represents a block and 3 represents the barrack, and the 11 represents the apartment, or the apartment that you' ; re going to be in, in that barracks. So we all started looking for their, our blocks. And fortunately, ours was one of the first blocks, it was D block. So we were out there, and my brother and I we were going up and down the block, looking for barrack three. And uh, finally found it, and my brothers were waving to--my brother says, " ; Over here, over here!" ; So they co--so they says " ; Come back and get th--the baggage!" ; So we, Larry and I ran back and got the baggage and we went into this room, I guess it was uh, about a little smaller than our living room which is about 25x25. And they had these Army cots, you know the kind that you fold with the canvas top. And then they had these mattresses that you put on top, and they had this GI blanket. So, so we mo--brought all of our baggage in there, and uh, we made an arrangement, of how we should have the cots, and we lined up all the cots on one side-- Cori Lin (CL): Grandpa. TN: Yes. CL: How old are all your siblings at this point? TN: Well, I was 13 years old. CL: How old were your--what are the names of your siblings and then how old are they? TN: Well, okay, Jimmy my oldest, he was born in 1922, so I don' ; t know how he was, but my, my sister was the oldest she was born in 1920 so my sister Mary and then comes my brother-- CL: What are their Japanese names too? TN: Oh, Mary Kimie, Kimie, and Jimmy, James Misao and my brother Joe, he didn' ; t have a Japanese name, everybody call him Jyo, Jyo in Japanese. [laughs] And then I came, the third son, and then my youngest was Larry Lawrence Tomomi Nakamura. So there were four of us, plus my sister, my mother and father. So we moved into this little apartment and we tried to settle in as much as we can. My mother, fortunately she brought some sheets, there was a whole bag, you know she just wrapped a whole blanket o' ; bags in the sheet and tied it like uh, you know, the Japanese do, and then you know, was carrying it over shoulder like that but um-- EL: Do you remember what the families did who didn' ; t bring their own sheets? TN: I do not know, but I think what they did was they just slept on the mattress and put the blanket over them. And uh-- EL: And you mentioned feeling a little bit excited, about riding on the train for the first time? TN: Oh, yes that was, well you know when you' ; re 13 years old and you never, never rode on a train before-- [smiles] EL: Right-- TN: It was, it was real exciting. So-- EL: Do you remember some of the other feelings that were running through you at that time, or maybe the expressions on your parents' ; faces? TN: Well they--they were concerned, especially my mother my, my father, he depended upon my mother a lot because he didn' ; t know how to read or write Japanese or English so he depended upon her a lot. And my mother, I have to give her a lot of credit, she was very intuitive and she had a lot of foresight so, and she was kind of a realistic person so she was really concerned for us. And of course my sister Mary, she was and she graduated high sc--I think in 1942. I think she graduated high school at that time, yeah. So she was, she was doing a lot of things taking care of the family, and my brother Jimmy too he was two years younger than my sister. And my brother Joe he was in high school at that time, and he was a very athletic person. And everybody knew him in camp because he was such a good baseball player, and they call ' ; em Lefty Yuba Joe, ' ; cause he was from Yuba City. [laughs] But uh, he and my, my sister my two brothers and my sister they took--took care of mostly everything, so my brother Larry and I we were, we were pretty, felt pretty comfortable, felt pretty safe. EL: Mhmm. TN: You know, when you have all those other older people taking care of you, you feel a little comfortable and we kinda enjoyed ourselves. But, I' ; d like to take a few minute break. EL: Of course. TN: And I' ; ll be right back. -- EL: Okay, we are recording again. CL: Mhmm. EL: So Tom, I think being mi-- CL: Oh, Emma you just mu-- EL: Yeah, being mindful of the time that' ; s available to us, I think if we can move quickly through some of the, the facts of where your family was during the war. It' ; s my understanding that you have given your family the great gift of , of writing down a lot of these details. So if we can shift a little bit through the war and use most of our time today to talk about after the war and especially your time in Chicago, I think that' ; s where we' ; ll head. So we--we were in Merced, so-called assembly center and then from there your family moved on to which camp? TN: Okay I' ; ll--I was thinking the same thing because all of these camp lifes are so recorded that practically everybody, you know, wanted to know they could just go back to a, a history book to understand that. So, what I' ; d like to do is after Merced assembly center we were, we were transferred to Amache relocation camp. It was called Granada, Colorado in Granada, Colorado. And of course the, the camp was named after a, Indian Princess I think Amache. And we, we spent my high school, high school days there. And after the camp closed, we moved to Denver, Colorado. And we stayed in, in Denver, Colorado for a few years, and uh-- EL: When you, when you left camp to go to Colorado, did you already know somebody who was there? Did you have a place to go to? TN: Yes, fortunately my brother, Jim, left camp early and he got a job in Denver as a chef in a restaurant. And he saved enough money to put a down payment on the house for us. So by the time we left camp we had a house in Denver where my mother and my father and the rest of us was able to move to, a place to move to. So we were fortunate in that, and of course my father had a stroke in camp so when the camp closed, the Army furnished an ambulance, and they asked me to stay with my father in the ambulance. So from Amache we drove all the way up to Denver in this Army ambulance, and we established a life there in Denver for a few years. [coughs] Excuse me. EL: And then after those few years in Denver, what came next? TN: Well after a few years, well I st--I only stayed there for about year and a half and I got a V-mail from my brother, and he says " ; Tom, you know you' ; re 17 years old 17 and a half, you' ; re going to be drafted pretty soon, so says I think the services will accept Japanese Americans now so why don' ; t you try to volunteer to any of the services except the Army." ; He says, " ; Army is--" ; , I--I don' ; t want to use the word but there' ; s a description [laughs] of, of what the Army was. EL: And his opinion was based on? TN: Well he was in the 442nd and, you know, he, he fought from, well he started in North Africa through a--through Italy, and Germany so he went through a lot of bad things. So, yeah, so he says " ; Just try to avoid the Army." ; So I went to the Navy recruiting people in Denver, and I says, " ; You know I' ; m Japanese American, do you take Japanese American in the Navy?" ; This guy looks at me, he says " ; Sure" ; , so I says, " ; Okay, I' ; m gonna volunteer for the Navy." ; So he signed me up, and before you know it I was on my way to San Diego Naval Training Center, and from there I was transferred to Pensacola to take training as an aviation photographer. So I graduated Pensacola, and then I went--they transferred me to this aircraft carrier, the Franklin D. Roosevelt and I--I tra--I--the--the Roosevelt aircraft carrier was in, in the dry docks, so they transferred me to the Norfolk Naval Air, Air Base and I stayed there until the end of my duty. And then I came back to, to Yuba City, worked around for a while, and then decided to go to this New York Institute of Photography. And so I started getting jobs here and there, just enough money to move to the next town and my next--the first, first town was in Provo, Utah I got a job as a far--as a truck farming, helping a truck farm. So I stayed there for about a month and a half, got enough money to go to Denver, and then I got a job in Denver at a pharmaceutical distribution center called McKesson & ; Robbins, I don' ; t know if they' ; re still in business. But I saved up enough money to go to Chicago and I figured well I' ; ll get a job in Chicago and continue on to New York. Well it so happened that Chicago is November 2nd, 1948 President Truman was elected president at that time. That' ; s when the Chicago Tribune says " ; Dewey Elected President!" ; , and then they retracted their right away and says, " ; Our mistake, Truman!" ; [laughs] So it was kind of a memorable day that I arrived in Chicago. And I stayed at the YMCA for awhile until my funds ran out, ' ; cause I was looking for a job, I couldn' ; t find any job at that time. EL: Did you know anybody in Chicago? TN: Well I--I didn' ; t I, I knew, later on, I knew there were quite a few people, but at that time I wasn' ; t intending to stay that long, so I, I didn' ; t look up any friends or anything. So I walked the streets for awhile, and found out that Japantown was on the Near North Side, so from the Loop to Division St. In the meantime, I move all my things from the YMCA, I moved it to this National Trailway bus station. I put all my things in the locker, and that was my, I think my last dime I put in there, and I, I couldn' ; t take it out because I didn' ; t have any money to put, put the things back in. So I was walking the streets, and somebody told me he says " ; Well why don' ; t you go Clark and Division, that' ; s where lot of the Japanese resettled." ; So I said, " ; Well, where' ; s Division Street?" ; he says " ; Well you just keep walking north." ; I just, I was happened to be on Clark Street. And so I kept walking, and I, I remember how cold it was because it was in November it' ; s cold and I just had this reversible coat, what they call the Melton on one side and gabardine on the inside. And that was warm enough for California but not Chicago. I didn' ; t realize how cold Chicago could get in November. So what I did was, I remember there were two newspapers at that time, the Chicago Sun Times and the Chicago Tribune. Well the Chicago Sun Times was a smaller paper, and it fit under my coat so I stuffed myself with the Chicago Sun Times newspaper about three thickness. And I' ; ll b--be walking along crinkling with the newspaper, [laughs] but it kept me warm. And so I finally reached Division Street and I see a lot of these Japanese stores, and first store I remember was Toguri Mercantile store which is near Clark and Division. And, and on one--one side on the corner was a hotel called Mark Twain, I don' ; t know if it' ; s still there, and then on the, the other corner was a drug store called Dressler Drugs. And, and right by, by Elm Street near Toguri, there was a pool hall called Zipp' ; s pool hall. So they said " ; Oh, a lot of the niseis on weekend they come and play pool over there." ; So I went in there, and I was just sitting around watching people play pool, and at that time I was smoking a lot and I didn' ; t have any money for smokes so, so people' ; d lay their cigarette butts along the, thing and I just pick it up take a puff. [laughs] And then I said to myself, well that' ; s--that word about " ; Beggars cannot be choosy?" ; [laughs] But uh, it was, it was a pretty couple of hard weeks because uh--then finally at, this is a Saturday night, I went there to the Zips Pool Hall and I ran into couple of guys I didn' ; t know, but they, they I introduced myself to them and I was telling ' ; em that, my story. He says, " ; Oh come on over there, come on, come with us." ; And I forgot their last name, but, but he had a nickname called Froggy? Froggy and Sarah. And he took me to a restaurant next door, and bought me a big plate of meatball and spaghetti. And that was the first big meal I had, and I just gobbled that down. And I remember says, " ; Froggy are you going to eat, eat that bread?" ; He says " ; No" ; ' ; says, so I took that bread from him, I ate his bread and oh, that was such a good meal I, I just remember that. And in the meantime, a few days later, my classmate from camp, his name is George Hikawa, he was at the pool hall and then he, he recognized me and then I told him the story I said you know I don' ; t have a place I just live at the bus terminal. He says " ; Oh my, my mother runs a boarding house." ; So he says " ; Come on over." ; So I says " ; You sure it' ; s okay? I don' ; t have any money." ; He says " ; Oh it' ; s okay." ; So I walked all the way down to the bus terminal, down the Loop, and then walk all the way back to their boarding house, which is on, between Goethe and Schiller on LaSalle Street, so 1330 N. LaSalle St was the address. So I brought all my gear and then, then I met the mother and, and the father also. And they says, " ; Oh, come on down for a meal." ; So I kinda felt guilty because I didn' ; t have any money, and all the rest of the guys there, there were about 14 guys there, mostly ex-GIs going to school under the GI bill. CL: Grandpa, were they mostly Japanese? TN: Mostly Ja--I think they were all Japanese. And a lot of them from Hawaii, from Idaho, from different places, and they were all going to school and living at that boarding house. So, so we made friends and when I first sat down I felt so guilty, but then Mrs. Hikawa she was so nice to me, and she says, and the father too he says, " ; I understand the situation" ; , he says, " ; Don' ; t worry about it." ; So I felt a little better, and then, from then on I started searching for jobs, and this guy says " ; Hey, you know there' ; s a place called Resettlers" ; I says " ; Where?" ; He says " ; Right down, you know a couple of blocks on LaSalle St." ; So I says " ; Oh okay" ; . Because I' ; m looking through the Yellow Pages and looking for addresses and you know there are some in the Loop, some way on the northside, and I, I it would take me all day just to go for one interview. So I says, " ; Oh I' ; ll try Resettlers" ; , so I walked down on Goethe, right on the corner was a Swedish club I remember. And I was, I was thinking all these people with, when they have parties they have all these tuxedos, and the women were wearing gowns going into the Swedish club. I said " ; Boy, is it nice to be rich?" ; [laughs] But I kept walking down, and then on the corner of Clark and LaSalle, I mean on Division and LaS--uh Division and LaSalle, there was a White Castle. White Castle hamburger? And then right past White Castle was this little storefront and uh, it says " ; Chicago Resettlers Committee" ; . So I walked down, I think you go down a step. And there was this man, I forgot what his name was, I was talking to him, I was looking for a job. And then he says " ; Well these are all the, all the stores or the company that' ; s going to hire Japanese Americans." ; So he says " ; You don' ; t have to worry about going different places and trying because these people--" ; he says, " ; --mostly I talked to and they' ; re willing to hire Japanese Americans." ; And w-- EL: When he said, when he said that, did he have a list to show you or-- TN: Yes, he ha-- EL: --specific job descriptions? TN: Right, well like this, one on the list was Curtiss Candy Company. And I heard of Curtiss Candy Company, I says, " ; Hey that' ; s Babe Ruth!" ; You know, so, he says, " ; Well a lot of, lot of issei women are working there so if you wanna try you can go over there." ; But then I was looking through the different brochures and things he had on the table, and my eye caught this LaSalle Photo Service. Underneath was a William Yamamoto. And I, I looked there and I says " ; Do you know this William Yamamoto?" ; He says, " ; Yeah he used to run a studio called ' ; Oriental Studio' ; , but he started a different business now." ; So I said I don' ; t know if it' ; s the same William Yamamoto that I knew in Amache, but so I said " ; Well, I' ; ll give it a try." ; So I walked down LaSalle St, and he was on ten forty--1048 S LaSalle St. So I' ; m walking down there, across the street was a ca--place called LaSalle Mans--LaSalle Mansion. And, talking to the guy he says " ; Well there' ; s a lot of people that we knew that lives in the LaSalle Mansion too because a lot of the people from Amache moved into the LaSalle Mansion." ; So it was right across from the LaSalle Mansion. And so I walk, I turned, and I see this apartment building, and I says " ; I' ; m looking for LaSalle Photo Service." ; And there' ; s no LaSalle Photo Service! So I ring the bell, and then this one Japanese man comes out, and he, I says, " ; You know I' ; m looking for LaSalle Photo Service." ; He says " ; Oh it' ; s downstairs in the basement." ; So I introduce myself and I says " ; You know, I' ; m looking for a job, I don' ; t know if, if this William Yamamoto was the same Ya--William Yamamoto that I knew in camp." ; So he says " ; Oh come on down, I' ; ll show you." ; So we went down to the basement. It was very dimly lit, and I see two people in the corner there, working. And then the, this, later on I find out his name is Tom Tsubone, he was uh, he owned, he bought the apartment building. And he, he says " ; Bill, there' ; s somebody here to see you." ; So soon as Bill looked at me and I looked at him I says, " ; That' ; s the same Bill that we knew in camp!" ; [laughs] So we started talking, and he was wondering what happened to me, I said " ; Well I was in the Navy, and then I just got out, I was going to go under the GI bill." ; So, so he says well there was this one lady working with him, so he says " ; Oh I just got married few years ago and this is my wife, Grace." ; So that' ; s how we got together. And I said, well this was in March, I applied for GI bill to go to this Ray-Vogue School of Photography on, on Michigan Ave in the Loop. So, so this was in, this was May. So I asked Bill I says, " ; You know I--I' ; ve been looking for a job, I go to school in the afternoons, and I' ; m looking for a job in the morning." ; So he says, " ; Perfect." ; I says, " ; Can you use a part-timer?" ; He says " ; I sure can." ; So that' ; s, that' ; s how we started in the basement. So I would get up 7:00 o' ; clock in the morning, go help him, and work, work with him ' ; till noon, then I would take the subway down to the Loop and go to school. [coughs] Excuse me. EL: And what kind of a school was it? TN: It was Ray-Vogue School of Photography and Fashion. It was one of these schools that pop up because of the GI bill. So after the GI bill ran out, that school went outta business. [laughs] But it was something that I wanted to learn because all I knew was military photography, you know? And I wanted to know a little about civilian photography. Well this one here happened to specialize in fashions. But I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t want to go into fashion photography, that was farthest from my mind. But they had the, the commercial division which I was interested in, so I went to the commercial division. And uh that was--I think the school classes lasted only 10 months, so after that I started working with Bill full time. And he' ; s--when, when we started, we st--we started with maybe about two or three stores, drug stores, mainly developing film for the drug stores. And we had, on the way we had this Dressler drug stores on Clark and Division. And so we would stop in and talk to the Japanese stores, little mom and pop stores, and Toguri was a pretty big store. And we would say " ; Well, if anybody drops off a roll of film for, to develop," ; says, " ; we' ; ll put this sign out, saying that you develop films." ; So that' ; s how we got all of these Japanese stores along Clark St, and then have York, York Foods, Toguri' ; s, there was another mercantile store on the, that was, east side of Clark St, and there several stores north of Clark St, and that' ; s how we started out. And we worked there for--from May 2nd, and the next year we had, we were so busy we had to move to another place, so we, we relocated to Fullerton Avenue. There was a storefront, a typical Chicago storefront, 25-foot frontage with a window, display window with a door in the middle. And that--that' ; s where we moved, and that' ; s how we began our second generation of photo finishing. And a few years later business continued to grow, so Bill bought a lot on the corner of Diversey and Paulina, and we built a photo plant from the ground up over there. And a few years later, our business continued to grow, in the meantime we had, at, on Fullerton Ave, we had a lot of nisei workers, workin' ; for us part time. And some of them stayed for us for almost 30 years. And when we moved to Diversey, we had about 20, 20 people at, when we were on Fullerton, and then we moved to Diversey and then that grew to about 125 people, so we had to expand again. So we expanded to an area of 3300-square foot of service space. And by that time our employees grew to over 400 employees and we, we were known as people who hire Japanese Americans only. ' ; Cause although we, we had lot of Caucasian people, lot of them they came to me in my office one day, he says " ; You know, Tom," ; says, " ; I like working here but I know there' ; s a invisible glass ceiling and I' ; m going to look somewhere else." ; So when he, when he said that, I said " ; Oh my gosh!" ; Says, " ; You reminded me all the prejudice ag--against the Japanese Americans" ; and now here the Japanese Americans, unconsciously because, you know we didn' ; t do it intentionally, we just wanted help the niseis out. Because lot of them were looking for jobs, and they knew that they could find a job. I used t--I used to tell my friends I said " ; If you' ; re a Japanese American, you got a 99% chance of getting a job at LaSalle Photo." ; [Laughs] But uh, it was a--it was, it was not in a prejudicial way, you know we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t just want Japanese Americans, because eventually we hired a lot of different other races. They' ; re uh, although I do admit a lot of them are Asian, because we had lot from Korea, lot of Filipino people, lot of, lot from Thailand, and we had blacks, whites, well we, we had quite a mixture of them. And a lot of Spanish, so it was a, kind of a potpourri of, of Chicago. And I can' ; t, I can' ; t say too much maybe I, maybe I' ; d like to emphasize how much Bill helped the Japanese American community. He not only helped the Resettlers, but when they changed to the JASC, he helped them a lot too. I remember one year he bought a van, and he had it, he had it made so that it would take care of the handicapped people. And at that time you know cars were 18,000, 20,000, but this van, I told Bill I said " ; Boy, how much did this set you back?" ; He says " ; Oh in the 50s." ; I said " ; Whoa my gosh!" ; [laughs] So the people from JASC came to our plant to pick up the van, and it had one of these things where you could get the wheelchair, and get on with the wheelchair. And we, we took pictures in the back of our plant, and they were appreciative. And he wouldn' ; t say but I know monetarily he helped the JASC a lot, and his wife Grace helped a lot, and then his daughter, Nancy, she helped a lot. When she was, after she retired I think she was working almost full time there for a while and also as uh, an advisor. I don' ; t know if you know, knew a Nancy Yoshida? EL: I don' ; t, I' ; m actually fairly new-- TN: Oh, okay. El: --to the JASC, and new to Chicago, so I don' ; t have that network of connections. TN: Oh okay, but anyway she was, she was one of those that really helped out a lot, a lot to people, because of her mother and father doing this. So-- CL: Grandpa, I have a quick question. Um, did--or actually, Emma, do you have a question first? Um, what--did you feel like people were supportive of LaSalle Photo expanding, either like, through the city process or like the neighborhoods that you were expanding in, like how did non-Japanese people react to you becoming so successful? TN: Well, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think they had any animosity towards us. Yeah, matter of fact lot of the, you know homes that we needed the land. So what Bill did was he offered them a offer you know like uh, The Godfather says " ; I' ; m gonna offer you an offer you can' ; t refuse." ; [laughs] So, so they were, he built, he, he bought out three buildings next door, and he paid top real estate price, plus the move-in to the new place. So, so once, once they moved out then we tore everything down and we expanded our building out there. And, and we needed parking for our employees so there was couple of more buildings that we bought out and tore it down, and made it into employee parking lot. So I guess-- CL: What about this, the city, like when you were getting permits and stuff? TN: [Laughs] Oh, well I, I don' ; t know if I should tell about the city of Chicago. [Laughs] But this--[Laughs] Shall I do that Cori? CL: I think it would be fine, ' ; cause it' ; s, it' ; s all old news. TN: Oh, well a lot of times it' ; s, it' ; s still current, you know what happens? [laughs] But uh, working with this city of Chicago, you know building, expanding, all of these things. It was a lot of headache because, you know I, I try to be honest in the business, and then I find out that in order to expand in business in Chicago, you have to get to know what the word mean--word of " ; payola ' ; ' ; means. I don' ; t know if you understand payola. And everything was under the table, and that' ; s how we were able to expand. Otherwise you know, it took years and years for different departments to approve, and you needed somebody to push this through the building department. So, well we weren' ; t able to, to wait years you know, you have the fire department, the water--water department. City, city bidding--buil--building codes and all that the red tape that you have to go through. Well one of the secrets, I guess I could tell this, is knowing your alderman. He has the power, he is a power in your ward. And, he has so much influence in City Hall. But, I, I hate to break this but I have to take another break. So can you-- EL: Go right ahead, I' ; ll pause the recording. -- EL: Okay, so we' ; ll pick up where we left off. You were talking about expanding the business, and a little bit about what it takes to grease the wheels a little bit in Chicago. And, just for clarification, would you be able to define for me the time period when all of that growth and expansion was happening? TN: Okay, well the, the growth period, it started from uh, well we--I started in May of 1949, and this was in the 50s and 60s and 70s when the growth started. So by the time I retired, I retired in 1989, we had, I was checking the payroll, and we had over 750 people employed. Well what we did was, I think in the 70s or--yes I think it was in the 70s, late 70s when we, when we started acquiring retail store, retail store outlets. You know, in the 40s, in the early 40s and 50s I think there was a law saying that manufacturers cannot have their own retail outlet. And Eastman Kodak Company had to close all of their retail outlet stores. So, what we did was not against that law because we were not a manufacturer, we were a service company. And we started buying out some of these camera stores, that were on the verge of bankruptcy or whatever, and then we started building our own camera stores. This is long past, I could, I think I could reveal this, that we had 22 retail outlet stores, and the majority of them were called " ; Lion Photo Service" ; . And we had, we had stores in Chicago, and a lot of them in the suburbs. Our biggest store was in Schaumburg, and our next biggest Lion Store was in Fox Valley, near Aurora. And we had a lot of other stores, we had one big store on Wabash Avenue, in the Loop. And of course we had others, small stores throughout like Skokie Camera became one of our stores. And we had accounts from--furthest north was Milwaukee, Wisconsin, we used to have drivers drive up there every day. And as far west as Aurora, and Fox Valley, Elgin, we had the Elgin, several store outlets in Elgin. And Algonquin, and far south is in Gary, Indiana. And of course some of our biggest commercial accounts was the Florsheim Shoe Company and they' ; re outside of the Loop there. And there was a big, big account in Racine, Wisconsin. The name of the company slips my mind, but they' ; re a big tool manufacturing company. Oh Snap-on Tools! Yeah they were, they were one of our big accounts. And what we do is we photograph, make big photographs of these, and send it out all over the country. Of course but Marshall Field they had their own delivery system, so we would deliver it to their warehouse and they would send it out to all of their stores. And they would display it in their window displays. And uh-- CL: Grandpa, so I was wondering since we are almost at the end of the interview, if you could also talk a little bit about some of the social groups? Um, any Japanese social groups that either you or like grandma, or mom were a part of? TN: Okay, good, oh yes, I could do that in a nutshell. Not actually, it has to be a big nutshell. [laughs] Well I was, I was a bachelor for about seven years in Chicago, and there are a lot of, when we, when we first, when I first came here they had a lot of wome--girls, girls group. You know, when they came out of camp, all of the different girls from different camps they form groups. They were known as Titles, the Debonnaires, the Silhouettes. And each one of those groups had maybe ' ; bout 10, 15 girls. And lot of them are still going to school, and lot of them graduated. So there was kind of a mixture between 18 to 21 I guess. And what they would do is they would, sponsor dances. And of course, when all of the groups, there were about, I can' ; t remember the exact amount, but there were maybe about six or seven different girls' ; groups. And they would have a dance at the YMCA on Chicago Avenue, or was that a YWCA? I can' ; t remember. But then all of the people from the south side, north side, all the young guys they would go, go to the dance. And that' ; s how we met all the different girls around the Chicago area. And of course the other event was, there' ; s a lot of th-the boys, they was form sports teams. You know basketball teams, baseball teams, and they would gather together and have team parties. And the year that I went, they had, I think it might have been the first or second all camp picnic. It was on the west side, near, close to Cicero, Illinois. And I think they, they had about I can' ; t remember the figure. The figure 20,000 comes but I think that' ; s the, the, all of the evacuees. But there are-there were a big, big, crowd at the picnic. And we would just go around, and looking to see what, what people you knew from camp. And also you met lot of other people that were in other camps that you knew before the war. So, so it was a, a good time. I think, majority of the people that lived in the Chicago area went to that picnic. So it was a great picnic. I don' ; t know if Resettlers sponsored it, I don' ; t know who sponsored it but, but it grew a, it drew a big, nisei crowd. And-- EL: In the--oh, go ahead. TN: In the 1950s, late 1950s, I met this one girl, she was from Hawaii. And I--and she stayed at the boarding house with another girl from Hawaii. And during that summer time, she had a sister that was going to Indiana State Teachers College. And she came to visit her sisters, and she had a brother here too. She came to visit, and then we started going out on a picnic together. You know, it was not only her but her girl friends that went to Indiana State. So we used to go out to Lincoln Park, bring out the goza, and have a picnic out there. And later on one, one August, it was August 18th, 1956 I think, 55. Her girlfriend says " ; Oh Tom," ; her name was Stella, said " ; Tom you know, Patsy, we' ; re giving her a surprise birthday party, you think you could ask her for a date?" ; so I says, " ; Oh yeah sure, okay." ; All this time we just met as a group, so I went to her room and I says " ; What are you doing this--" ; I forgot what day of the week it was. She says " ; Oh nothing." ; So I says, " ; Well you wanna go out for dinner?" ; She says " ; Okay," ; so I said " ; Oh, I' ; ll pick you up at 7," ; I think it was 7 or 7:30. Because the dinner was going to be at this restaurant in Chinatown. So I, I took her out--I picked her up, and we drove towards Chinatown. I says " ; How do you feel like Chinese food?" ; She says, " ; Oh, I like Chinese food" ; so I said " ; Good! So we' ; ll go to this one Chinese restaurant." ; And here, well, this was her f--our first date together, you know we always dated as a group. So I parked the car and bring her into this Chinese restaurant, and soon as we walk in, you know she' ; s expecting just the two of us. And then all of a sudden, I walked to the table and hear all of her friends, her sisters, her brothers, and all her girl friends from Indiana State, says " ; Surprise! Happy birthday!" ; [Laughs] And that' ; s how we first got together on our first date, and rest of ' ; em was history. Seven great--seven grandchildren and one great-grandchild, oh, God has really blessed me. And I could tell you about my spiritual life too but that' ; s gonna take another hour. CL: Grandpa, that would take 10 hours! EL: And we could always schedule another follow-up interview if you' ; re up for it, and Cori if that' ; s something that you' ; re interested in, I feel like you have so many stories to tell, and I have so many more questions to ask you. But, building on what you were just telling us, when you proposed to your wife, did you do that somewhere in Chicago? TN: Yes, I--I remember the exact space, the exact place. It was on the porch, at 1330 N LaSalle St. [laughs] EL: And was that where you were living or where she was living? TN: We were both, both staying there. I was on the 1330 side and she was on the 1328 side, because her and her girlfriend Stella, was living in an apartment, and her sister was living on 1328 side. Her, her name was Charlotte. And her other sister later moved to 1328, and her name was Gladys. So when they first found an apartment on north Kenmore, they found out the apartment was full of bed bugs, so they moved out of there and moved to, to 1328, North LaSalle Street. CL: And you all stayed in those two flats for awhile, or where, where did you raise mom? TN: You mean Reta Street? Oh, well that' ; s after we, we got married and we had to my, my oldest daughter Kelly. And in the meantime, my sister-in-law and her husband, and my other sister-in-law, they bought a apartment building, three-flat apartment building, on north Reta Street near Wrigley Field. So uh, they both, they both moved in. On the third floor was a, a tenant, a Jewish tenant and they eventually moved out. So after, we w--we were living on Lakeside Place, near the Aragon Ballroom there. And we moved to the third floor, and that' ; s where, my three daughters and their, their cousins grew up together. We were like one big family. And there was, three, three floors of us, so from the time they were small, they, they were like, fighting like brothers and sisters actually. And they' ; re still close today. And, all of their children they' ; re all, they' ; re all close too. They' ; re all, nice close cousins, right Cori? And you fight like cats and dogs sometimes too. [Laughs] CL: Yes. [laughs] TN: But we all love each other, and I' ; m so proud of them! All of them are so successful in life, they' ; re so talented, I' ; m so proud of them. And I' ; m just waiting for this pandemic to be over so I could give all of them a big hug! [Laughs] EL: I think a lot of people are looking forward to that time. On a related note, I' ; m curious, during the time that you were--especially the early days in Chicago, and your own family was quite far away geographically, how did you maintain a connection with them during that time? TN: Well my, my parents lived in California. My sister, my brothers, they all lived in California. So, after I bought a car, almost every year I would, on my vacation time I would drive to California and visit them for two weeks. Well actually it was ' ; bout ten days the other time was left in driving. But, I don' ; t know how many times I drove cross country, but from Route 66, to Route 40, to Route 30 I knew all the routes to California! [laughs] But sometimes, I would go with some of my friends because we would share a ride, and few of them lived in San Francisco and some of them lived in Los Angeles. So we' ; d just share a ride, and that' ; s how I would keep in contact with my parents. But, other than that, I don' ; t know if there' ; s enough time to share about my religion, but I don' ; t, I don' ; t know if-- EL: If you' ; re feeling energetic enough to keep talking, my schedule is clear and I can stay on the call, but it' ; s up to you. TN: Okay well, I' ; ll just try to be a few minutes because when, when I came to Chicago, I was a Buddhist. You know my mother and father were strictly Buddhist, and Yuba City was mostly people that believed in Buddhism. You know when I was at the-the boarding house, these people from Moody Bible Institute, which is located right on Chicago Avenue and, and LaSalle Street there. LaSalle and Clark. They would come by and they would pass out brochures, and all of us GIs we would just sit out in the front porch and we would make catcalls and whistles to all the, the girls that would go to this Moody Bible Church on North Avenue. So whenever Sunday came all the, all the girls would walk on the other side of LaSalle Street, because they, because they knew that we would make whistles and catcalls to them. But one day one of the guys from Moody Bible stopped and gave all of us little brochures. And we looked at it, and we just threw it away in the g--waste basket. But every day he would come and, and he targeted my friend Danny Takeguchi and myself, and he would just, I don' ; t know why he targeted the two of us because we were both raised up Buddhist. But then, one Sunday Danny and I says, " ; Hey this, this guy' ; s goin' ; stop and talk to us so let' ; s go inside." ; So we went inside our room, and we were sitting, laying down in our beds reading a book, pretty soon there' ; s a knock on the door. And then there' ; s this guy! I says, I' ; m looking at Danny I said, " ; Boy, is this guy persistent!" ; So, so we didn' ; t wanna be rude, so we invited him in and he started talking to us about Jesus Christ. So, so he gave me, he gave us a little booklet on the book of Saint Johns. And he, he told us about creation, and of course this is the first time I heard about creation. And it says, uh, in this book, are you a Christian, are you, are you familiar with the Bible, Emma? EL: I attended a Catholic school for a few years, I wasn' ; t raised Christian but I have some familiarity. TN: Oh okay, okay. But, but in this book it says, " ; In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." ; So, he asked us " ; You know when the beginning was?" ; I says " ; Yeah, because you know, we came from the ocean and we, we' ; re a fish, we develop legs, and then eventually we grew up to be an ape." ; So that' ; s when he started explain to me about how God has created the heavens and the earth. So, so this is how I became a Christian. It took a few months of his persistency, but he kept coming and he started sharing little bit here and there. And then eventually, he took us to this one Japane--well, he, he took us to this Moody Bible Church. And Danny and I sat up on the second balcony, and we' ; re looking down and then I' ; m telling Danny I said " ; Hey Danny I didn' ; t know there were so many Christians in this place," ; because there were over 2000 people at the Moody church, and that' ; s how I became involved in Christianity. And another comment I wanted to make, this is on a spiritual basis, was that when I had my three daughters you know when they were teenagers, getting ready to be a marriageable age after college, I was praying to God I says, " ; Oh God, pray that they will meet a nice, Christian, nis--nisei or sansei man" ; you know? And then all of a sudden God played a big trick on me. First one that got married was my daughter, and she got married to this Caucasian guy. And the second one, I says " ; Well maybe, maybe my second daughter will marry a nice sansei person." ; and she says " ; Oh Dad I' ; m gettin--I' ; m getting married to this person." ; I says " ; What is he?" ; She says " ; Oh, he goes to our church." ; I said " ; Oh good, good!" ; Because this, participants at our church was mostly nisei and sansei people. And she says " ; Oh his name is Charlie Lin." ; I says, " ; Charlie Lin." ; [laughs] And then, after I met him I said, says, " ; At least the Christian part was correct, he was a good Christian" ; and he turned out to be the nicest son-in-law I ever had. He was, he was takin' ; after me because he said " ; Dad, I' ; m taking after you because I have three daughters" ; and then, and he says, says, " ; And they' ; re all going to be a Christians" ; so I says, " ; Charlie, you are the best!" ; and I still miss him today. He was such a good son-in-law. He was a good dad right? Kristi--Cori. I still miss him. But I think that' ; s, that' ; s about it, I' ; m getting out of breath. So thank you-- EL: And we' ; re comi-- TN: Thank you so much Emma for the time, to reveal--share part of my life you know, 93, 92 years of life, and, and they seem to just go by so quickly, and I' ; m glad that I was able to show my granddaughter Cori, leave some of the legacy on the book, on the books. Thank you so much. EL: Well thank you for being so generous with your time, and your remarkable memory. I am just in awe of how clearly you remember things, and how, how detailed your descriptions are. So thank you, from the bottom of my heart. TN: You' ; re welcome. EL: And Cori, thank you for organizing this. And as I said if there' ; s any interest in continuing the conversation and recording again, we can absolutely do that, it' ; s quite easy to set up a time. One advantage of this pandemic is that geography is no longer a barrier for us. So, I' ; m going to stop the recording now, but you' ; re welcome to stay on the line for a moment after that and we can say our goodbyes, but I' ; ll end it here with a thank you. TN: You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NakamuraTom20210316.xml NakamuraTom20210316.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 ","Nisei^^Amache^^Navy^^LaSalle Photo^^Yuba City^^Chicago Resettlers Committee^^Moody Bible Church",5700,,"Oral History Interview: Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021)
Oral History Interview: Lin, Cori Nakamura (12/15/2022)",,,,,"Nakamura, Tom Kazumi",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/e388bea98208711f547ca53259653b8b.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
456,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/456,"Nicholls, Lourdes (4/26/2021)",,"Lourdes Nicholls is a fourth-generation Japanese American born and raised in California. Her maternal grandfather, Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya was one of the few Japanese Americans in the Chicagoland area prior to World War II, and after completing his education at the Art Institute of Chicago, worked as a museum curator for George Harding, Jr.. After George Harding, Jr. passed away in 1939, the family moved to Los Angeles. Shortly following their move, they were incarcerated at Manzanar, where Lourdes’ mother was born, and her grandfather served as the Director of the Visual Education Museum. Lourdes herself was born in Culver City, California, and grew up in Northern California. Following her graduate studies, she moved to Chicago, and although she had never previously lived here herself, she found herself connected to the city through her family’s personal ties. Through a series of coincidences she was connected with a museum curator currently at the Art Institute, and was able to contribute to an exhibit that held the same arms and armor that were once worked on by her grandfather. An active member of the Nikkei community, Lourdes continues to share her family history and legacy, and is a part of Nikkei Uprising.",,,,2021-04-26,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Ueunten, JJ",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NichollsLourdes20210426.xml," 5.4 4/26/2021 Nicholls, Lourdes (4/26/2021) 1:07:40 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yonsei Harding, George Tsuchiya, Kiyotsugu Manzanar Block 20 Visual Education Museum Pre-WWII Chicago Nicholls, Lourdes Ueunten, JJ video 1:|17(8)|30(6)|45(2)|54(9)|64(12)|73(10)|87(4)|95(14)|105(9)|114(2)|120(16)|128(9)|137(3)|145(7)|152(11)|160(9)|177(4)|192(8)|202(9)|214(5)|226(4)|235(4)|260(8)|269(2)|277(9)|292(10)|302(6)|311(1)|322(14)|333(14)|341(3)|356(12)|365(4)|401(3)|415(14)|429(1)|441(5)|457(4)|469(11)|478(10)|498(1)|505(15)|516(11)|527(2)|538(14)|555(10)|568(1)|583(13)|593(14)|602(13)|611(14)|626(3)|639(8)|647(5)|655(7)|667(13)|679(15)|693(6)|704(10)|719(6)|729(1)|741(12)|757(12)|772(5)|779(1)|788(14)|804(4) 0 https://vimeo.com/574592707/576ce06808 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/574592707?h=576ce06808" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Lourdes Nicholls is a fourth-generation Japanese American born and raised in California. Her maternal grandfather, Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya was one of the few Japanese Americans in the Chicagoland area prior to World War II, and after completing his education at the Art Institute of Chicago, worked as a museum curator for George Harding, Jr.. After George Harding, Jr. passed away in 1939, the family moved to Los Angeles. Shortly following their move, they were incarcerated at Manzanar, where Lourdes JJ Ueunten (JJU): Today is April 26, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N. Clark St. in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Lourdes Nicholls. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay, what is your full name? Lourdes Nicholls (LN): Lourdes Michelle Nicholls... Kaczkowski. I' ; m, I' ; m marr-- I go, I don' ; t go by my married last name. (laughs) JJU: And what is your year of birth? LN: 1967. JJU: And where were you born? LN: I was born in Culver City, CA. JJU: Were you or any members of your family incarcerated during World War II? LN: My mother was born in February 1945 at Manzanar, and her parents and her sister and grandmother lived together in Block 20 a--at Manzanar. JJU: And when did your family first come to the US? LN: Okay, so my mother' ; s father Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya came to the United States by himself at 15 or 16 years old in 1916, and took a ship to Los Angeles to find his father who was working at a flower shop in Los Angeles, and to get him to go back to Japan. Because he had been in the United States for maybe 10 years, and was not coming back to Japan. And my grandfather was the first boy in five generations, and h--and was sent to the United States to bring him, his father back even though he didn' ; t really know his father ' ; cause he was just a little boy when he left. JJU: Did he go back? LN: He went back, but my grandfather stayed, and again you know he came by himself at 15 or 16 years old not knowing English and... I can' ; t even imagine... I mean he found him luckily, but you know it wasn' ; t a text or a phone call I don' ; t think, it was like letters and finding him. JJU: And when and how did your family come to live in Chicago? LN: So my grandfather lived in Los Angeles in the late teens and early 20s. He went, he went through the United States, he went to Oklahoma to become... To find oil. And what he said was that the Standard Oil Company set up oil rigs right next to where my grandfather and his uncle had property and sucked all the oil out and so my grandfather and his uncle ended up going north to Chicago, and my grandfather, who by the way originally wanted to be a dentist, ended up at art school at the Art Institute of Chicago in about 1922 or 1923. JJU: Wow, okay. And do you know, kind of when your grandmother came? LN: So my-- my grandmother was born in 1911, in Sacramento. Her parents were from Japan, and her mother was born in 1890, her name was Chiyo Konishi. And she was... She came to the United States to get married to my grandmother' ; s father, who was 25 years older than my great-grandmother. Yeah, I' ; m not sure if she knew that when she... You know, signed up for that but anyway, yeah so they were both born in Japan, and my grandmother was born in Sacramento. JJU: Do you know what motivated them to immigrate? I-I know your your great-grandmother came to get married-- LN: Yes, my great grandfather... seems like he was like an actor. He had a lot of interests. He had a Go parlor in Los Angeles in their house I believe? And I think he was kind of a Jack-of-all-trades. I know that when the 1908 earthquake happened in San Francisco, which you know they were-- he was in the area, I guess he walked from San Francisco to Sacramento which is really far. To-- because he had nowhere else to go at that time. That' ; s what our family has said for generations, that he walked, he left San Francisco and walked to Sacramento. I don' ; t know, but they were in Sacramento and eventually went to Los Angeles. My grandmother and her sister who was born in 1912 were in a very strict household and their parents wouldn' ; t allow them to go to school if their horoscopes were not good. And they also had them work in silent movies. So my grandmother and her sister were in the Sessue Hayakawa movies as child, child actors. So, that was kind of a interesting life I guess, that they had. And I have a lot of photos of them from those movies, from the movies they were in. JJU: Wow. LN: And Sessue Hayakawa was in Chicago as well so he' ; s, he' ; s kind of a interesting character as well. JJU: Was-- Do you happen to know if your family was part of Japanese American communities before the war? LN: They... My grandmother' ; s family was in Little Tokyo in Los Angeles and they seem to have been very ingrained in that, in, in that community. My grandmother went to an integrated school in high school, she went to Lincoln High School in Los Angeles with some later... Marcus Welby I can' ; t think of his name now, he was a big star. So she, even though she was required to speak Japanese at home her parents had her, you know her and her sister in an integrated high school. And they graduated around 1928-29 the sisters. JJU: And, yeah do you mind speaking a little bit about the pre-war life in Chicago that you know about? LN: Sure, sure. So my grandfather came to Chicago in the early 1920s, and he went to the Art Institute, and there he met a man named George Harding Jr. who was a very eclectic, wealthy collector of arms and armor. And he really liked my grandfather, so he asked my grandfather to become his curator of his collection. And he lived at 4853 Lake Park Ave. which is in the Hyde Park-ish Kenwood neighborhood. The house has been destroyed now because it was going to be revitalized, that neighborhood was going to be changed. And so unfortunately, it' ; s not there, it' ; s an empty lot. But the house was a mansion, and George Harding actually I believe was the first person in Illinois to have a car. He had an airplane, he had, he would fly to Europe and all over the world to collect art pieces. And after World War I, there were a lot of families in Europe selling things, and he was able to take advantage of those things. I' ; ve read that the Hearst family and George Harding had a lot of competition between pieces of art. So my grandfather ended up being his curator, and I have a photo of him in the-- his little workshop. He would take care of the arms and armor in the collection. And he would give tours to presidents, vice presidents, Al Capone actually he, he told me about going there. In the, I think late 1920s, George Harding had wanted to dismantle a castle in Germany and bring it to Chicago but because that wasn' ; t allowed he actually built the Chicago in... He built the castle, and had it created in Chicago. My grandfather lived on the property, and you could see him actually in these photos in front. But he was kind of a Jack-of-all-trades, he gave tours, he cleaned armor, he lived on site, he met with people, he appraised things and yeah he had kind of a busy life. A very, you know, extravagant life I would say. My grandfather, you know, I have a lot of old photos of Chicago from the 1920' ; s through his eyes because he was living here, and... I know that he told me he would walk, I don' ; t know maybe 40 blocks to save maybe like $0.02 to, in order to mail something. He would-- instead of taking the streetcar he would, he would walk from 4800 South to the Loop which-- that' ; s pretty far, as you know. (laughs) And I think he was happy working there, he worked for George Harding for over 15 years, and then in 1939 George Harding unexpectedly died. And at that time, my grandfather didn' ; t know if he could continue working at the museum. There was a lot of drama, even though George Harding was married, he had a mistress who was taking over the business. And I think my grandfather was very uneasy about things, and he also, he-- my grandparents were married in 1936. Sorry, I' ; m jumping. But, and they were expecting a child in 1940, so when George Harding died there was a lot of-- you know, I' ; m sure a lot of stress about what they were gonna do. But so... That' ; s kind of the back story. My grand, my grandparents were married on December 7th 1936, which was five years before Pearl Harbor day. It was a Monday. I don' ; t know who gets married on Monday, but they got married, and they got married in Los Angeles. It was an arranged marriage, my grandfather was 36, my grandmother was 25. And they, I think that they got married on a Monday because of horoscope types of things, that' ; s what my idea is. And they came back to Chicago, and lived at the mansion. But in maybe a year or two after they came back to Chicago and they were living here, they opened a Japanese restaurant in Chicago which is pretty unique I would say. Because, I believe there were only 400 Japanese Americans in Chicago at that time, and they were two of them. So they opened this restaurant, the address is 5253 Cornell Ave. in Chicago. And this is a photo of them in the restaurant. They are on the left so-- with their friends. So I thought that was pretty unique because here' ; s the interior of the restaurant, I mean I don' ; t know of any Japanese restaurants you know, that were in business then. And it looks very elegant. Oh, I also brought, sorry, a picture of my grandfather at the Harding Museum with the armor that he worked on. And I recently found these brochures of the Harding Museum, which actually my grandparents boxed up, and when they were sent to Manzanar, they actually, you know, saved these albums because those things were probably going to be destroyed. So, so yeah, here' ; s another workshop photo, and here' ; s a, a castle photo of, I think that' ; s-- I think that' ; s George Harding right there. So, so even though I didn' ; t grow up in Chicago, I feel like something kind of brought me here. And that my grandfather loved it here, I think he was very happy here. But in 1940, my aunt was born, here in Chicago and because my grandfather' ; s job was in jeopardy, or not knowing you know what would happen to the museum, they moved to Los Angeles in August of 1940. And they thought it would be a temporary place for them because my grandfather was asked to run a museum in Manchuria, but my grandmother' ; s family thought it was very dangerous for them to go there so they stayed in Los Angeles. And because my grandfather was unable to find a job, he opened a garden nursery in Culver City. JJU: Wow, wow! LN: I know it' ; s a lot of info sorry! JJU: No, no, this is great! So did they, they had the restaurant after George Harding died? LN: They had the restaurant, I believe in like ' ; 37, ' ; 38 I think that they were doing it you know, at the same-- like maybe my grandmother was working there while my grandfather was working... But it may have been ' ; 39, my grandmother told my mother, and my mother told me that there were some anti-Japanese feelings at that time, and they felt that that' ; s why the restaurant wasn' ; t successful because even though we weren' ; t at war, people were not real open to that. I don' ; t know-- I, I' ; d love to know what, what was going on. JJU: And do, do you know, do you happen to know if they were in, kind of communication or community with other Japanese people here? LN: Good question, I know that they had their best friends. Fred Uno, who was in that photo that, they opened it together. But I, I don' ; t know, I think my grandfather was used to working with people that were not Japanese. My grandmother, I think she was adjusting to life in Chicago. It was very different than Los Angeles, I' ; m not sure... I wish I knew more, yeah-- JJU: Oh yeah, thanks for sharing that. That' ; s incredible. LN: It' ; s kind of-- Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s unique. JJU: Um yeah, so maybe moving into like, wartime incarceration maybe you' ; ve answered this but when and where was your family incarcerated? LN: So my family was... From what I know, my grandparents had this garden nursery, and I' ; ve seen photos of it, it was beautiful. It was not little, it was pretty large. My grandfather was told by one of his customers who worked for the FBI that... Maybe, right after Executive Order 9066 was the 19th of February 1942. That if he had a-- if he could go to Manzanar, that would be the " ; best place" ; . I don' ; t know, that' ; s, I have my grandfather saying that on tape, so... I don' ; t know why somebody would have said that, it' ; s really hard to know what, what would be a best place. I mean, it' ; s all horrible! But my grandparents were unable to sell their garden nursery, and finally my grandfather spoke with the milkman, and he said, " ; Would you like to buy it?" ; and my, and the milkman said, " ; I only have $75" ; . And so he sold the whole thing for $75, and they went to Manzanar on April 8th 1942. So they were some of the first people to arrive at Manzanar, and they were in block 20. I just recently found their tags. JJU: Wow. LN: Yeah, I knew they were in block 20 but it looks like they were in another block, and then they switched because maybe they were friends with the people there. Toyo Miyatake was in block 20 and Toyo Miyatake took my grandparent' ; s wedding photos in LA, so it' ; s kind of full circle. You know, they, they were married in 1936, and then in 1942 they' ; re neighbors with their wedding photographer who did a lot of things to help people at Manzanar. JJU: Are there, did your family kind of tell, share any stories with you about their time there? LN: So when I was in high school, I was required to interview my grandparents, so I did get a lot of information. They, my grandfather started the visual education museum at Manzanar, which, which I have a picture of... Well let me see, I have this photo that shows my grandfather here, and here' ; s Toyo Miyatake. He started the visual education museum to show the incarcerees what life was like outside of camp because they didn' ; t know how long they were going to be there. Ralph Merritt, who ran Manzanar, asked my grandfather to start a museum and collect things to show children and adults and work on art. So even though this is a blurry photo, I mean it' ; s a copy, that' ; s what he did. He, he knew, Ralph Merritt knew that he had this museum experience, so he asked him to use that, his experience at Manzanar. And in this book about Manzanar, my grandfather put together the Ansel Adams exhibit, and he' ; s, he' ; s mentioned in this book as well. JJU: The Ansel Adams exhibit like at Manzanar? LN: At Manzanar. Yes, yes, so Ansel Adams went to Manzanar four times, and my grandfather put together this exhibit of his work at the visual education museum. JJU: So were these like the Ansel Adam photos that he took of Manzanar, LN: Yes, yes. JJU: and then it was a-- LN: Yes. JJU: --it was like a...Wow, okay! LN: Yeah, so those are the photos that were at the-- Then, they came from the exhibit, you know that were blown up. Those photos, my grandfather had the first showing of those photos at Manzanar. JJU: That' ; s amazing... Yeah, any I don' ; t any other-- I know that you' ; ve kind of shared, and your mom' ; s shared, but any other stories that you' ; d like to share about kind of what you know about their life at Manzanar? LN: So, all I know... My grandmother said that the food was horrible, the thing that always stuck to me is that she said that there was, there wasn' ; t any butter and that they would give you basically like Crisco grease, and little yellow packets to color that grease so that you would think that it was butter. That is really... I mean when I was 16 and I heard that I thought, " ; Ugh, yeah that was really gross" ; . And I know that the wind and the dust were horrible, they talked about that, my grandfather actually wrote a document about starting the museum and how the conditions were, I mean he made light of it, but it was actually pretty sad. And again, he went from you know, working with millions of dollars worth of inventory and, to working and collecting butterflies and bugs and putting them in little displays, so... My mom always said that he was very depressed after that experience because, it was just so humiliating, you know, to, to be like that. My grandmother was the secretary of the museum, so she was paid, my grandfather was paid I think $21 a month to be the head of the museum, which was I think the same that doctors got at Manzanar. It was considered a very prestigious job. My great-grandmother worked in the mess hall, and my mom said it was the only job she ever had in her whole life, but I don' ; t know how long she did that. And my aunt was two when she went to Manzanar, and she was five and a hal-- five, when she left, so those were her earliest childhood memories were there. She went, started kindergarten at... there. JJU: And your mom was born there? LN: My mom was born, yes February 26th 1945, and didn' ; t remember it but for her lifetime said that there was intergenerational trauma because of all that her parents had endured, yeah. JJU: Did, did she kind of, I mean she, she wouldn' ; t remember but I don' ; t know, do you wanna share a little bit more about you know what, what she thought of how, how that kind of got passed down? LN: Yeah, well I' ; m moving ahead a little bit, but my grandfather, right when the war was ending got a job in Oklahoma, Stillwater, Oklahoma, which is now Oklahoma State, teaching naval officers Japanese. And from there he became the translator for US War Crimes Trials, in Japan and went to Japan. And my mom and her whole family went to Japan, so... They had a very different life-- they never came back to Chicago. They... again, they went to Oklahoma, then they lived in Japan for two years, and when they finally came back to the US, they lived in Boyle Heights in Los Angeles. And my mom just said that my grandfather wasn' ; t able to get a job after that, that he-- you know, he had worked in a museum, he had been a translator, he was doing all of these things, and no one, no one wanted to hire him. She said that he sold vacuum cleaners door-to-door which didn' ; t last very long. But I mean, that' ; s pretty, pretty, pretty dire. He... Then opened a garden nursery again, and he had a lot of success with that but I don' ; t think he ever was able to do really what he wanted to do. Until, maybe in his 70s in Los Angeles, he opened a frame shop, which kind of gave h-- brought him back to the art world, and what he used to do. Yeah and he didn-- he worked there until his, maybe he started that in his 60s and then he worked at the frame shop he owned until his 8-- until he was 80 or or older, yeah. But my mom was, she said that growing up in Boyle Heights which was Japanese, and La-Latino you know she had a lot of friends of a lot of different backgrounds which she loved, but I think she had a strict household, and her dad was... I think people were very depressed. I think that her parents were depressed, even though they were trying to make it better. They seemed like they were, you know struggling for a bit, yeah. JJU: And so-- Do you know kind of like how old your mom was when they moved back to-- or to Boyle Heights? LN: To Boyle Heights she was about, I think she was four. I think it was 1949 and she went to Japanese school, she was a pianist, I mean her parents made her take piano very seriously. She was a top student, she skipped grades, she was, she kind of, she didn' ; t rebel against them but she, she went to college. They wanted her to go to UCLA, she went to Occidental where she met my dad. And you know, she, she wanted to live a little, a different life. She was, she, she had again, she thinks that she had intergenerational trauma from that experience. I thought I brought another picture go ahead, sorry. Oh! I think I left it in the car, sorry. I had one of our family, in Los Angeles with my grandparents, but I can' ; t find it. So... JJU: That' ; s okay, yeah I guess... Let' ; s see, and you kind of said in your form that your family had some kind of part in the redress movement, or that-- yeah. LN: I don' ; t know if my... That' ; s a good question ' ; cause I' ; m literally just filling out the form to see the testimonies. I don' ; t think that they testified but they did receive the redress check, and unfortunately my grandfather died August 26th 1990 and his check arrived that October. So even though he knew it was coming, he didn' ; t see it. I didn' ; t really talk with them about that. I think it' ; s really hard to, hard to think about. Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s sad. I mean I think my grandmother thought that it would, was never enough for all that they lost. Yeah, and I' ; m sure my grandfather thought the same. The ironic part is that if they had stayed in Chicago, they wouldn' ; t have been at Manzanar. Now, I' ; ll... You know, that' ; s hard to, hard to believe but it' ; s true. You know they-- the only reason that they were required to go is ' ; cause they moved, yeah. So, their lives would have been so different. JJU: Yeah NL: I mean still hard you know, but yeah... I don' ; t think that they ever really wanted to talk about Manzanar, until I had to do this school project. They really didn' ; t want to talk about it. JJU: When you did the school project, at that point were they willing, or did you kind of have to like... NL: They were willing, my mom and I flew from San Francisco to Los Angeles just to do this interview. And again, it was in 1982 and I had required questions and they answered them, but I' ; m sure that they were really, you know, ashamed of it. And my grandmother, the quote that I remember her saying is that, " ; Now that it' ; s over, I can remember the good things" ; . But obviously, you know it' ; s kind of like-- yeah a bad nightmare you know, so... Yeah, and having been to Manzanar numerous times I' ; m... Every time I go there I kind of you know, see new thing-- or notice new things so... I haven' ; t been there in the real cold, I' ; m usually there in like the springtime or summer when it' ; s really warm. But it' ; s got to-- it must have been a miserable place to be you know? And my grandmother was pregnant to-- too so, yeah. JJU: Yeah, thank you. I' ; m gonna move a-a little bit into like your life if that' ; s okay? LN: I thought it was all about them! (smiles) JJU: (laughs) No, it' ; s also about you! LN: (laughs) What!? JJU: Especially because you, you know you spend a lot of time kind of learning these stories and stuff. But also, if there' ; s other things that you want to share before I start asking you questions about yourself, that would be great. LN: Yeah, I, I think I' ; m in pretty good shape, I' ; m just disappointed, I had a picture that I, is sitting in my car so I might have to, I don' ; t know what-- if we take a break? JJU: You could take a break and you could get it? LN: Yeah I' ; m, it' ; s kind of an important... That was the first thing I grabbed, and now I don' ; t have it so... yeah. JJU: Yeah, do you want to take a quick break? LN: How am I doing? JJU: Or should we do later, like-- -- Other voice: Yeah! I just... JJU: Okay, but yeah, do you want to share those with us? LN: I was just, I' ; m-- First I' ; ll share my grandfather' ; s document while he was at Manzanar. Which is the history of the visual education museum, which he wrote on-- in May 1943 while he was at Manzanar: One hot day in August 1942 a desk piled with a few magazines, pictures from old calendars, and other, and a scissor were given to us... Sorry, I gotta start over I need my glasses. Can I have my-- Other voice: I' ; ll get them! LN: Okay, thank you. I' ; m sorry, this is going to be bad, I' ; m just going to, I' ; m-- I can, I kind of know it, but I need to-- Yeah! Yeah, they[glasses] might be right on top! Yeah, thank you. I' ; m sorry. Okay better, okay now I can really read it, okay. " ; One hot" ; Okay, so... I' ; ll start over, if you want? Okay, this document my grandfather wrote while he was incarcerated at Manzanar, May 1943 : History of the Visual Education Museum One hot day in August 1942 a desk piled with a few magazines, pictures torn from old calendars, and a scissor were given to me in the corner of the superintendent' ; s office to develop visual resources for Manzanar schools. In September, I was moved to block 2015 Library. There, my staff of workers were formed. Kango Takamura, artist, Toyo Miyatake, assistant director, and Carole Kageyama, secretary. Our department began with a pile of old magazines for picture file, one live owl, and a mouse. While we collected insects to be mounted, Mr. Takamura painted the local wildflowers. When we opened our present museum at Block at 815, Block 815 in October, we began to write to various institutions and manufacturers for free materials on visual education which soon began to arrive, enabling us to have enough things to be displayed on one table. In our early days, the walls and floor were unlined. Dust and wind blew through the open seams of our buildings. We worked with-- with our coats on because the heat was inadequate. To add to our misery, the owl, the sparrow, and the snake died of cold. The mouse escaped and ate up our collection of insects. Yet we were not discouraged. We wandered around the center collecting everything from bugs to minerals. After five months of hard toil, our first exhibition on December 5th 1942 was a great success. Since then, we have held special exhibits every month. Today we have a permanent exhibit of local minerals, plants, wood carvings, posters, and handicrafts, and also a picture library of approximately 4000 mounted and unmounted pictures, models, slides, diagrams, globes, and other visual aids. The Manzanar public has had an opportunity to enjoy several interesting special exhibits such as Fine Arts, point rationing, relocation week, traveling exhibition, art exi-- exhibit, Know Your Manzanar, World of Science, etc. With the newly selected board of directors, we know that the day will be here soon when we will have a visual education museum of which Manzanar can be proud. -- Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya, Director, Visual Education. So, that kind of illustrates in a nice way probably, what, what he was doing or trying to do. And, at Manzanar, currently in one of the barracks, there' ; s a exhibit based on what he did so... Yeah. JJU: Whoa. LN: It' ; s hard, yeah. But he did it so... I' ; m very proud of him even though I' ; m sure it was depressing. Yeah. JJU: Have you ever connected with anyone who like remembers that museum? LN: I have, yes. My mom passed away unfortunately, about a year and a half ago, and before she died, she wanted to connect with Kayoko Wakita, who actually gave the eulogy at my grandfather' ; s funeral. And she has, I just spoke with her a couple months ago, and she had really nice things to say, yeah. But the museum, there are some pieces, you know, there are some pictures of exhibits they had a chrysanthemum-- you know people would grow flowers and be able to display them. They had a stick figure exhibit where you could cut-- whittle sticks and make shapes or animals out of them. So I mean people had to use whatever resources they had, and they couldn' ; t go to a store to- to do that. So, I think, you know he pivoted obviously. It' ; s like COVID right now, it' ; s like, what do you do? You know, I think he came up with-- there was one called Relocation Week that was, I think you were to show what you brought in your suitcase. Yeah, I have the poster from that exhibit, yeah... So, yeah you don' ; t really think about it, and the thing I say to people is that no one knew when World War II was going to end. You know, we know now, but it' ; s like, when is COVID gonna end? You know, right now we don' ; t... you know, we think maybe it' ; s over, or getting there? But yeah, who knows? So, it was a very uncertain time, and I' ; m just thankful that, I believe my family stored things in a Buddhist temple in LA and it wasn' ; t broken into, so-- I' ; m fortunate to have a lot of things that they probably didn' ; t bring to Manzanar, that they trusted other people to take care of. JJU: Wow. So yeah, that' ; s such a huge pivot that he made. LN: Yeah, huge pivot. I mean, I-I have pictures of him in like, you know suits, and doing all sorts of things in Chicago, and then he' ; s collecting bugs with mosquito nets, so-- JJU: Which I' ; m sure made like a huge difference for people who are in Manzanar, you know? LN: Yeah, yeah. JJU: Do you, I found that " ; what you brought in your suitcase" ; so interesting, do you know any other exhibits that they had that stand out to you? LN: The Relocation Week, the Ansel Adams exhibit, I have pictures of the chrysanthemums, they had two exhibits every month, so I mean he was, you know, busy. And they were thinking up new, new things for all sorts of people. And then, I do have a piece from the Manzanar Free Press about him, that other people kind of maybe they weren' ; t laughing at him about it, but they were kind of like, yeah, we' ; re not going to participate. But in the end, I think it really did help people, to show their things and, and be proud of it. Paintings... I have another quote, sorry, from the Manzanar Free Press that I am particularly proud of. And I think it, it is good for Chicago. So in June 1945, on the, on the cover of the Manzanar Free Press, I don' ; t know if you could see that. It says, " ; Tsuchiya to Aid Relocation Office" ; . " ; Continuing to employ interviewers with outside experience, the relocation division last week added Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya," ; my grandfather, " ; to it' ; s growing staff. Tsuchiya is well known for-- to center residents, as the past director of the Visual Education Museum. His experiences on the outside include approximately 4 months in Chicago," ; because he visited during World War II, " ; and another six months at Seabrook Farms on a trial indefinite leave. He will leave Manzanar only until he finds suitable employment." ; He wrote, he said " ; ' ; Chicago, the city of foreigners' ; , said Tsuchiya, ' ; offers far greater and more varied opportunities than California ever did. In general, this is true of the whole East.' ; Seabrook has done mu- much more than halfway in working things out for the evacuees. It is a fine place for persons who desire to do manual work, and have, many have received promotions. Speaking of the attitude of people in center, Tsuchiya expressed his own convictions in these words, ' ; Fear of the outside is the first thing that disappears from the mind once we go outside. Fear is a thing that has been the result of three years away from the world. There is no reason for fear.' ; " ; So, I think that it shows that he was trying to... give the incarceree' ; s hope that they would not, they, they could make it outside of Manzanar. Because, I' ; ve since learned, and I can understand that many people didn' ; t even want to leave Manzanar. And, because they didn' ; t have things to go back to. They didn' ; t have family perhaps, I mean I' ; m just ready to cry just thinking about that, because I can see why, you know after a while you just get used to the way it is. And, even people who are currently detained right now, I mean, it' ; s really opened my mind. Yeah, to that. Yeah. JJU: Yeah thank you. LN: Yeah so, I mean it' ; s nice to find these quotes that he was trying to lift people' ; s spirits, I think? And he was trying to illustrate that things were going to be okay. Now, he was from Chicago, so I' ; m sure he felt like this was a welcoming place. I believe it was, it' ; s just hard to know how, you know, how things were. I' ; m, I' ; m kind of surprised they didn' ; t come back to Chicago. But, yeah, it' ; s kind of, I think he always regretted-- I don' ; t think, I think the last time he was ever in Chicago was in the 40s. I don' ; t think he ever went back again. And I was just starting to possibly-- well, I was talking to him about Chicago right before he passed away, and he still knew all the streets, he knew, I mean he knew everything. So, yeah it' ; s sad. It would have been great if he could have come back, because the Art Institute now has the collection that the-- that George Harding had, so it' ; s now one of the most popular exhibits at the Art Institute, and that' ; s the, that' ; s the work, those are the items that he worked on. Yeah. JJU: So that' ; s like the armor exhibit-- LN: Yeah! JJU: In the, in the Art Institute. LN: Yeah, that' ; s the whole armor. Plus, there were, hundreds of other things that they owned, but the armor is really... If you walk through the Art Institute, and there' ; s some Remingtons some, little statues, like the Cowboys like with the guns and bronzes. Those were George Harding' ; s as well. And you' ; ll see at the Art Institute how many pieces there were. There was a musical, musical instrument exhibit, so my grandfather would clean these instruments, yeah. Yeah. JJU: And, you had a photo you wanted to share? LN: Oh right, so when you were saying I was going to, you wanted to talk about me. So this is my family in 1969, and Toyo Miyatake' ; s son Alan took this of my family in my grandparent' ; s house in Los Angeles. Here' ; s my grandfather, here' ; s me, here' ; s my dad, here' ; s my mom, my grandmother, my great-grandmother, my mother' ; s sister, and my cousin. And my uncle was sick that day and they took it without him, so-- Yeah. So-- JJU: The same photographer-- LN: Yes, so yeah so right here you could see Toyo Mikaytake, who was the most famous photographer other than Ansel Adams and Dorothea Lange at Manzanar. This is my grandparent' ; s house, and yeah it kind of comes full circle because Toyo took their wedding photo and then in the 60s, you know came and took these photos, yeah. JJU: So yeah, I-I kind of want to know h-how you made it to Chicago or the Chicago area? LN: So I, made it to Chicago, I was... I met my then boyfriend in college, and he moved to Chicago. And I was in graduate school, I finished graduate school, I said I' ; d never move to Chicago, and I' ; ve been here for 30 years now. Almost exactly 30 years. Yeah. So, yeah so the first time I went to the Art Institute in 1990, I-- my grandfather had just died in August, I went in September, and I walked in the Art Institute and I said, " ; This is what my grandfather worked on. These, this is it! This, he worked on these, these pieces." ; Even though I had only seen photos, and my husband at that-- my boyfriend at that time was like, " ; Yeah, right." ; I mean it' ; s kind of a crazy thing. But, I was so obsessed! I was like, " ; No, this is it, I know this is the stuff he worked on!" ; So I went to the head of the museum, I mean I went to the lobby and I demanded to talk to the people in charge. And the person that was in charge of the exhibit had just died in a car crash. And, I was... I didn' ; t know what to do, I was like, I kn-- I know this is, this is what he worked on. But, because my grandfather had just died, I couldn' ; t talk to anyone about it. And, it took years, but through a few coincidences, I was introduced to Gloria Groom, who is the head of the European Arts collection, I hope I have her title right, but she' ; s a neighbor of mine, our, our kids were in the same class in elementary school. And long story short, I showed her these albums and she connected me with Jonathan Tavares, who was working on recreating the arms and armor exhibit, so they used these photos from these albums to put the exhibit together. And yeah, so kind of, kind of all happened for a reason. I mean they, they didn' ; t know about a lot of things only because of these albums that they found out where the, where the armor was, what pieces, I mean all the armor kind of looks the same to me, sorry but it-- (shrugs) But, anyway, they know their armor, and they could identify all the different pieces. So, it felt, it felt good. It felt good to help, you know, a place like the Art Institute, and be a part of that exhibit. You know, even if I' ; m, I didn' ; t do anything, I just felt like we-- you know, these photos helped, my grandfather helped for over 15 years when he was with George Harding so-- JJU: And then, just backing up a little bit or-- So did you, oh I guess when and where did you grow up? LN: So I grew up in the Bay Area, I, I was born in Culver City, I lived in LA as a little girl. And then my family moved to Berkeley, and then they moved back to LA ' ; cause my dad went to graduate school at USC, and then we ended up in Oakland and Berkeley. So that' ; s where I went to elementary school, high school, junior high. JJU: And then did you grow up with Japanese or Japanese American family or friends nearby? LN: So when I lived in LA, my grandparents in this picture had a, had a house and then they had a rental house. I grew up in that rental house when I lived in LA, which was really great ' ; cause you have your grandparents and great-grandmother right next door. When I was in grammar school, when I was in like third or fourth grade, I really wanted to learn Japanese, and so I went to Japanese school. Even though my mom did not speak Japanese to me, even though she flu-- she spoke fluent Japanese, she just didn' ; t. And so I tried, that was not very successful. But I will say my daughter is fluent in Japanese, and has lived in Japan, and teaches Japanese now, so I feel like it just skipped a generation. (laughs) JJU: Did your family participate in Japanese American organizations or activities? LN: You know my mom really did not, I mean later in life she finally embraced her Japanese side, she joined a sansei group, I got her to go to Manzanar, a few, a few times we went to Manzanar. She went another time without me, but she was not, she did not feel very proud of her Japanese side. And my daughter is so proud to, to be part Japanese that my mom was just like really taken aback by it. And my mother finally started accepting that, and it felt really good. It' ; s just a shame that she passed away because it all, everything was kind of just coming together with, with my daughter. My mom was gonna go to Japan to go see her there, my mom was taking Japanese to re-, you know, re-engage her language skills, so, it was really-- It' ; s like a dagger in my heart every day that-- it just, you know that she isn' ; t here. Yeah. But, you made me think of something else. My mom was very driven, and kind of, I think she, I' ; m not gonna say, she wasn' ; t very proud of her Japanese side, so she just excelled in all the things she did. She was really, a hard worker. She worked for McKinsey and Company, she worked for Steve Jobs at Apple. And she, she retired when she was in her 40s. And then her second husband passed away kind of unexpectedly. And she decided to go to law school when she turned 50. And, she got a perfect score on her LSAT, she went to UC Berkeley, and became a lawyer. And she was a lawyer until she found out she had cancer. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that she was very driven, and a lot of that had to do with pleasing her parents and making them, you know, she was always trying to make them proud. Although, they weren' ; t real happy ' ; cause my parents actually eloped, and... because their parents weren' ; t happy about them getting married. I' ; m all over the place, sorry. JJU: Did you learn about the incarceration-- How did you learn about the incarceration? LN: I always heard my family talking about camp, and like a lot of people I thought it was like, a summer camp. But I guess it was probably around like 13, 14, 15 when I had to do this project, that I realized that camp was something different. So I think I, I always knew my mom was born at Manzanar, but I didn' ; t really know what that was. And I didn' ; t go to Manzanar until 2009. Even though I tried to get her to go v-- a lot of times. She did not want to go. But once we went, she loved it. Yeah, she loved it. And she went back multiple times, yeah. So, I think people, she thought it was going to be this really sad, sad place, but it was, you know, an inspiring place. And we' ; ve donated things to the Manzanar museum, so it' ; s nice to see you know, like this document, some posters, photos, things like that, yeah. JJU: And, and when you had to do this project, were you just like, I need to fly over there or was your mom like, let' ; s go-- You know, I-I guess how did that happen? LN: Yeah, I-- You know, it' ; s funny that we flew to Los Angeles just to do this interview because I guess we could' ; ve done it on the phone maybe back then? But, we flew to LA to do this interview, it was November, I mean it was-- And w- and I think my mom said, I' ; ve never heard my parents talk about camp, and now, I' ; m gonna hear what it was really like. So, she wanted to come with me, and we both, we both went. JJU: What was that like for you? LN: That was overwhelming, actually, I put my heart and soul into this pro-- this report, and honestly, you' ; re not going to believe me but-- I got really, really sick after that, like maybe, like, the flu or mono after that, and I' ; ve, I' ; ve never been sick a day since then. I' ; ve never missed work, I' ; ve never missed school, because-- I felt like that report, I put everything into that report, again, I was a sophomore in high school. You know. I' ; ve worked a lot harder on other things, but it was probably really emotionally difficult, that I didn' ; t realize that it was hard to hear those things, and learn new things about my grandparents that I had no idea. Yeah. JJU: Wow. Yeah, I-I guess like how do you see it relating to your own identity, like this family history that you have? LN: Yeah, I-- You know, I love talking about it, but again, like I' ; m almost about to cry right now because it' ; s-- It' ; s just been my little platform you know, it' ; s just been what I' ; ve been doing. Probably, I' ; ve been talking about it a while but the, " ; Then They Came For Me" ; exhibit, you know, Richard Cahan was so nice to ask for, if I had any items. And, my family had a letter that was in the exhibit that went to New York as well. It was a letter that a doctor wrote to my grandmother while she was at Manzanar, and it was really powerful to show maybe how naive and unknowledgeable people were about what was going on at the camps-- I' ; m sorry now I forgot your question. (laughs) JJU: Oh, how-- LN: Oh! Yeah, JJU: --does your family history relate to like your own identity? LN: So, I feel like I wear it on my sleeve, I feel like it' ; s a l-- it, it' ; s a l-- a big part of me. I mean I feel more Japanese probably than I did growing up, way more knowledgeable, way more proactive and outspoken about things. But I still have a lot of work to do probably, I still have a lot of learning to do. You know, I know a lot about Manzanar, I' ; ve been to Heart Mountain, I have not been to, I' ; ve, I' ; ve made it-- I want to go to every site in my lifetime. And I feel like I' ; m just, I don' ; t know, there' ; s, there' ; s a reason that these weird things happen to me. I' ; ve had a lot of really great coincidences, that I know are like, I don' ; t know, my grandparents or great-grandparents just like making things happen for me regarding this. Tomorrow I' ; m gonna be on a podcast, I mean, how does that happen? There' ; s a documentary about my family being worked on, I mean I' ; m very fortunate, but it' ; s hard to talk about, yeah. I think it' ; s hard because, there' ; s a lot of shame that my grandparents had you know so-- And my mom, oh, my mom broke down and cried at the " ; Then They Came For Me" ; exhibit, and I felt horrible because I brought her there, and she just fell apart. And, she said I' ; ve never cried about it, and she went to the exhibit, she was so... Taken aback by everything, that it just-- all of a sudden she just started crying. And so-- And my mom wasn' ; t a big crier like that, so-- Yeah, I think it' ; s, I mean, things, let' ; s face it, it' ; s 2021, things are changing, but it' ; s still hard to talk about. Yeah. JJU: Yeah, thanks so much for talking with us, you know? LN: Oh! Sorry I' ; m like, whoooo, yeah, but I think it' ; s... it' ; s good. It' ; s good. JJU: Do you feel kind of connected to other Japanese American people, groups in Chicago? LN: I, I feel really lucky to be a part of Nikkei Uprising, even though I don' ; t feel like I' ; m not as active as I' ; d like to be. I' ; m currently cleaning out my mom' ; s house, which is again, a dagger in the heart because she saved everything. And, how do you get rid of these things, or how do you sort through them? But, I would like to be a lot more active, I' ; m, hopeful that I will have time to be more active, and I like everybody that' ; s involved, I' ; m, I' ; m so impressed with everyone all the time. I just feel like I' ; m, dropping the ball. (laughs) JJU: (laughs) That' ; s not true! I don' ; t know if this is within my interview job-- LN: Oh yeah right! JJU: --But, that' ; s not true at all! LN: No, no thank you! I, I' ; m learning a lot, I' ; m learning a lot, I have a lot of, I' ; m, I have s-some Japanese friends, I mean being bi-racial, I have a lot of bi-racial friends too. Growing up in Berkeley, it was very common to have people from every, I mean, my friends are of all different backgrounds. So, I feel lucky. Yeah. JJU: And, I know you touched on this earlier but is, is there kind of, ways that you feel, I-I think you spoke about how your mom kind of felt the intergenerational impacts-- NL: Yeah. JJU: --of incarceration, like how do you feel it' ; s kind of, in your generation, your children-- NL: I feel like, it' ; s interesting, my mom had the intergenerational trauma, I feel like I' ; m-- I' ; m not going to say warming up to that, but it' ; s, it' ; s been something that, I' ; ve recognized more and more, especially with learning about HR40 and, and I had testimony for reparations for African Americans. I don' ; t feel as much like I have endured what she has endured, but I know it' ; s in me. And I' ; m just, always searching for more information about my family and what they went through. I know I' ; m probably not answering this very well. But, my children are very aware of what happened at Manzanar, they' ; ve been there, they preach it. So, that feels right. I mean, for me to not know these things unless I t-- had the interview with my grandparents, that' ; s kind of, a shame. However I will say that the last time I ever saw my grandfather, I tape recorded his life story, thank goodness, because, I use that as what I know about him, and that' ; s how I know these, crazy stories about, about him. I mean, because I have them on tape. So I' ; m very lucky that I even taped that, because if he had just told it to me, I probably wouldn' ; t have even remembered all the information that he gave. But, I think that everybody has intergenerational trauma, it' ; s just some people, it' ; s really, right here, and maybe some people it' ; s, down a little bit. Yeah. JJU: Yeah. We' ; re getting kinda, toward the end of our time, so I just, if-- wanted to ask if there' ; s anything you really want to share? LN: Umm, JJU: I-I feel like we could ask you questions forever! LN: I know! I-I-I feel like I' ; ve touched on, a lot of things that are important to me, I mean, I still think it' ; s fascinating that I, I have Chicago roots, you know from, 100 years ago. But, I' ; d like to, know more about what happened, it' ; s just really hard to do that. And, I just think it' ; s remarkable that my grandfather could have accomplished so many things even though perhaps he didn' ; t think he did, I don' ; t know, tha-- it just breaks my heart. He really did do a lot. Yeah, so, and my mom too, I think, she really wasn' ; t, she was too young to pass away, she passed away at 74, my grandfather died at 90. You know, I thought she' ; d, live a long time, so-- Yeah, you just, life is short, so you just gotta, do the right thing. That' ; s what I would say. JJU: Alright, yeah, we' ; ll close there. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NichollsLourdes20210426.xml NichollsLourdes20210426.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1 ","Yonsei^^Harding, George^^Tsuchiya, Kiyotsugu^^Manzanar^^Block 20^^Visual Education Museum^^Pre-WWII Chicago",5900,,,,,,,"Nicholls, Lourdes",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"ISHRAB,Series: Oral History Project",https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/8ef65993f7558b08757aef044938bd9a.png,"Oral History","JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection",1,0
461,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/461,"Oba, Ken (6/2/2021)",,"Ken Oba, a Chicago-born sansei, shares memories of growing up on the South Side in the Hyde Park and Avalon Park neighborhoods. His parents, born in Los Angeles, CA and Honolulu, HI, were both incarcerated at Poston during WWII before resettling in Chicago, but rarely spoke of their experiences. Ken discusses the ways in which his Japanese American identity did and did not impact his life, shares his thoughts on the importance of all of the ethnic identities that his multiracial children and grandchildren possess, and describes his motivations for volunteering at a variety of organizations post-retirement. Of particular note are Ken's descriptions of his experiences visiting Poston and visiting Japan as an adult.",,,,2021-06-02,,,,video,,,,,,,,,"Lincoln, Emma",,https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ObaKen20210602.xml," 5.4 6/2/2021 Oba, Ken (6/2/2021) 48:26:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Sansei Poston Fukuoka JASC Oba, Ken Lincoln, Emma video 1:|26(10)|42(12)|60(4)|73(9)|95(12)|111(15)|128(13)|143(1)|154(7)|170(3)|185(1)|206(6)|219(1)|232(10)|244(14)|261(4)|275(5)|290(3)|305(13)|317(17)|331(1)|342(1)|356(1)|370(3)|388(4)|400(8)|411(15)|423(6)|434(10)|447(15)|462(9)|476(5)|488(9)|501(15)|511(4)|527(5)|538(13)|550(16)|565(7)|582(1)|596(1)|608(5)|632(4)|644(11)|657(6)|671(7)|685(9)|701(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/562844491/a71d373653 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/562844491?h=a71d373653" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ken Oba, a Chicago-born sansei, shares memories of growing up on the South Side in the Hyde Park and Avalon Park neighborhoods. His parents, born in Los Angeles, CA and Honolulu, HI, were both incarcerated at Poston during WWII before resettling in Chicago, but rarely spoke of their experiences. Ken discusses the ways in which his Japanese American identity did and did not impact his life, shares his thoughts on the importance of all of the ethnic identities that his multiracial children and grandchildren possess, and describes his motivations for volunteering at a variety of organizations post-retirement. Of particular note are Ken's descriptions of his experiences visiting Poston and visiting Japan as an adult. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is June 2nd, 2021. And this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Kenneth Oba. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Let' ; s get started. So we' ; re going to start with just some background questions. Ken Oba: Sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: And if you could get us going by stating your full name, please. Ken Oba: My full name is Kenneth Kaoru Oba. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what is your year of birth? Ken Oba: 1951. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Ken Oba: In Chicago, Illinois. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did you also grow up in Chicago? Ken Oba: Yes, all my life. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were your parents and grandparents born and raised? Ken Oba: My father was born in Los Angeles, California and my mother was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. And I believe all their parents were, were born in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know what kind of work your grandparents were doing in Hawaii and in Los Angeles? Ken Oba: I don' ; t know at all the grandparents in, in Hawaii. I don' ; t know much about my mother' ; s side. But my father' ; s side, I' ; m almost positive that, you know they, they had a farm near Fukuoka, so I assume they were, that they were farmers. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your father' ; s family remain in Los Angeles all the way up until World War II? Ken Oba: No. My father, he was the oldest of, he had two brothers and one sister. And, when he graduated from high school, I forget the year, his mother, be my, my grandmother, was killed in an automobile accident. And then I think it was a few years after that, then my grandfather took you know, all the, all the kids back to kind of the home in Japan, near, near Fukuoka. But then, then sometime after that, then my dad came back to the, came back to the U.S. and then it was followed by his, the next oldest brother. And so they were here in the U.S. during World War II. And then another brother and then the sister remained in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: So the family was split? Ken Oba: Exactly. Emma Saito Lincoln: On opposite sides of that war. Do you know what prompted your dad to come back to the U.S.? Ken Oba: I' ; ll say, I don' ; t know exactly. But, but I kind of think you know, he was born and you know, was raised in Los Angeles and I think he wasn' ; t necessarily, I' ; ll say, that thrilled to you know, to b-- to be living in Japan. It was just really a very different life you know in Los Angeles... You know, it was a city, and Fukuoka was out in the country, you know a farm. And I, I think it was kind of, you know, I don' ; t want to say difficult, but I, I think you know, he, he kind of longed to come back to the U.S. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know if he spoke Japanese? Did he grow up speaking Japanese? Ken Oba: I believe he, he did. He and my mother you know, never spoke Japanese at home, you know, really rarely. But I knew he knew how to speak Japanese. So I assume you know either, knew before or you know, lear-- you know he' ; s probably able to speak Japanese when he was in, in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: Mhmm. So when Pearl Harbor happened and the U.S. and Japan were at war with each other, it was your father and one of his brothers who were living here in the U.S.? Ken Oba: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. Ken Oba: Yeah his, you know the, you know it was his next oldest brother, named Masao. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then they were within the exclusion zone. They were, were they sent to incarceration camps? Ken Oba: Right. So my dad, he was in Poston. That' ; s a camp in Arizona you know, near the California border. And a couple years ago, my wife and I, we were in Phoenix you know vacationing for the winter and we, we drove to Poston. There' ; s not much there. But then my uncle, you know Mas, he was in the camp in Manzanar, California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your parents ever talk about what happened during the war? Ken Oba: Not really. Not really, no. Neither my, my dad and then my mom, she passed away when I was a, a freshman in high school. You know, but you know really, she never, you know she never said anything about the camp. But she w--, she was also in Poston. Emma Saito Lincoln: So she' ; d grown up in Hawaii. Had she then come to the mainland? Ken Oba: Right. She w-- she was, I believe, living in Los Angeles. But really, I don' ; t know in a way that much, you know that, that much about her. But you know, I, I' ; m really positive she was living in Los Angeles at, at the time that the you know war, you know war broke out. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then so after, both of your parents were in Poston, and after that, did they come straight to Chicago or... Ken Oba: I believe they, they came straight to Chicago. And again, I' ; m only kind of guessing that you know, maybe they didn' ; t want to or maybe there' ; s no reason to go back to the, to the West Coast. But they both, you know came, I believe, directly, directly to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: And were they already married at that point or was that, did that happen after? Ken Oba: They weren' ; t married in, in camp. So I, I' ; m almost positi--, well, really, I, I' ; m positive they got married when, when they came, came to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: So if this isn' ; t something that your parents talked about, when you were growing up, were you even aware that your parents had been incarcerated or that many Japanese Americans had been incarcerated? Ken Oba: No, not, not, not, not really. I have to admit, I don' ; t remember when you know I kind of learned of that because you know I don' ; t think it was something you know we learned you know in grammar school or high school. I have to admit I' ; m not exactly sure when. I would say I was more... you know more adultish than a kid that, you know when I kind of became aware. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you feel now that you have a pretty clear understanding of what happened during World War II, to Japanese Americans? Ken Oba: In a way, I' ; d say no. You know I, I' ; ve read you know some books. I' ; ve read some... You know, I' ; ve heard people speak. But I, I' ; d say it' ; s really hard to, you know... You can get an understanding overall what happened, you know the people being incarcerated in various, in various camps. But like in terms of their lives you know... You know I' ; ll say I, I really can' ; t you know imagine. It seemed like it was awfully, you know, awfully, awfully difficult you know, being uprooted and you know being in you know a hostile you know situation kind of, in, in many, you know in many respects. Emma Saito Lincoln: Given what you know now as an adult about the incarceration experience, are there things that you experienced or that you observed with your own parents that you think might be a result of that history? Ken Oba: In a way, I, I guess generally, I would say no. My dad, you know he, you know I' ; ll say kind of embraced you know the, the government knowing, you know what was good, good for you. And then you know when I was you know say, you know college age and you know I grew up in you know the ' ; 70s and you know Vietnam War protests. And you know not that I was you know radical, but like the idea of like you know, not necessarily accepting what the government was saying. But my, you know my father, he seemed to be more of a mind that, yeah, the government knows best and you know it was hard for me to kind of understand that, given that, well, the government had put him and the brother and you know others in, in, in, in the camps you know really you know under like, I' ; ll say like false pretenses you know? So, and then my mom, again, I don' ; t think any kind of conversation ever came up. You know she was a nurse, and you know I just knew she was my mom and you know... But there was... I' ; d say there really wasn' ; t anything like that. Emma Saito Lincoln: So where, where in Chicago were your parents living? Ken Oba: On the South Side, in Hyde Park, which is you know... The most prominent things there are like Museum of Science and Industry and University of Chicago. We lived, I think at 51st Street and Blackstone, in Hyde Park until I was you know I think like six years old. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember much about that home? Ken Oba: The things I remember, there was a fire one time. You know not in our unit but in the building, and firefighters came and broke a lot of windows and there was all sorts of excitement. But, but it was like by the lakefront and we used to go to the park there and that was you know, that was, that, that was a lot of fun. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you lived in Hyde Park, were there any other Japanese or Japanese American families nearby? Ken Oba: I' ; m sure there were. But you know I was, like I said, we lived there until I was, say five. So, you know, I didn' ; t really socialize that much. It was like, you know sometimes I go to the park, you know try to, try to play baseball or I don' ; t think I was riding, you know I don' ; t think I was riding a bike at that point. But I have to say, really, I, I' ; m sure, you know looking back, I know there were other Japanese in the neighborhood. But I' ; ll say we didn' ; t necessarily, necessarily, know, know them. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you, for example, you weren' ; t living in a building that had, you know, predominantly was occupied by other Japanese families? Ken Oba: No. No, yeah, no. But nearby, then my uncle, you know the other brother, Mas, you know, he, he lived nearby as, as well. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then when your family moved, where did they move to? Ken Oba: To further south, 81st and Woodlawn. You know, I think it' ; s the Avalon Park neighborhood. And we lived there really through all my formative years, you know childhood years. And I graduated high school, graduated college and lived there for a couple years after, after I was working. Then I moved to the North Side just ' ; cause a lot of people I knew, you know moved to the North Side. And then my dad, you know, who was retired at the time, he moved to Anaheim, California. So that was, then that was it. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were growing up, you mentioned your mother was a nurse. What was your father' ; s occupation? Ken Oba: He was a tool and die designer and he worked at either a company or for Bally, which was, became pretty big in making pinball machines because sometimes we had, not pinball machines but like, these smaller arcade games at our house. But he was a tool and die designer. And then later on he did the same thing for a company that made, like weather stripping. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you have any really strong memories of growing up on the South Side? Ken Oba: Yeah. I' ; d say all my, you know, I' ; d say my childhood memories of you know, I' ; ll just say I was typical, I would say like American boy. You know, most of my time was you know, was outside and you know, you know we would play, just every kind of sport. Baseball, football, basketball. In the winter, we' ; d ice skate. You know, it was great. There were, you know a big park nearby and there were plenty of, you know mainly other boys to you know, to, to, to play with. So, I remember, you know really very fondly, I had a great time. Emma Saito Lincoln: How would you characterize the relationship that you had with your parents? Ken Oba: I' ; d say it was very, v-very good. Unfortunately, I' ; ll say I didn' ; t know my mom. You know, wish I could have, you know known her longer. My dad, really, you know, I' ; d say he really made our family. You know, he, he didn' ; t go to college, you know so I think he took, you know, well, it wouldn' ; t be online classes at the time, but, you know I think you know, somehow he was able to become a tool and die designer. He also fixed, you know watches. But, you know he set, you know the stage for like, you know me going to college and my brother going to college. And so I really appreciate that. But I have to say, you know up until, I' ; ll say, even until the end when he was getting older and, you know obviously, I, I was an adult, you know I was always the little kid that, you know he was gonna, you know he would, he would tell me what to do you know, no matter, no matter what it came to. You know, and so I have to say now that I' ; m a grandfather, you know I' ; ll say I try to have a little... I' ; ll take that perspective when I' ; m dealing with my, my two kids. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you have the opportunity to know any of your own grandparents? Ken Oba: No. No, not... ' ; Cause I never met my father' ; s, you know, grandfather. I did meet my mother' ; s mother. You know, she lived in Los Angeles you know and so on vacations we, we visited there. And so I, so I did, I did meet her. Probably the main thing I remember she had a, a parrot you know that would talk and, you know make a lot of noises. And we thought, " ; Boy, that' ; s pretty, you know, that w--, that was pretty interesting." ; I think she lived not too far from Japantown, in Los Angeles. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were growing up, did your parents socialize with any other Japanese Americans that, that you know of? Ken Oba: I' ; d say mainly at the New Year' ; s holidays. You know, my parents, I think primarily my mom, would make, you know Japanese dishes and then we would go to other, the homes of other Japanese families and they would come to our house. But I' ; d say it was primarily like at the, at, at the holidays. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your family belong to any Japanese American organizations? Ken Oba: I know my, my dad, you know, I guess I forget you know, how, how I know that he w-- he, he was a member at some point of the Japanese American, you know Service Committee. I, I don' ; t know, know about my mom, but I don' ; t necessarily remember them being active or my dad being active, you know, because the JASC was also located on the North Side of the, the city. But never remember... ' ; cause the first time I remember coming to the JASC was when I moved to the North Side and I came, you know, they would have blood drives and I would come, come for that. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were growing up, were you particularly aware of your identity as a Japanese American? Ken Oba: Well, I' ; d say obviously I knew I was Japanese. But there wasn' ; t, you know like, I' ; d say that, that, you know compelling or strong component of my you know, my, my, my personality. You know, I' ; ll say often that like, " ; Oh, I wish I was taller." ; You know, but, you know? But I' ; d say not necessarily because we didn' ; t go to you know a Japanese church, or you know I never learned to speak Japanese. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were you aware that there was a Japanese American community in Chicago or that there were Japanese American churches? Ken Oba: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I' ; d say particularly like in, even when we moved to Avalon Park that there was a, you know a Japanese community in Hyde Park. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you mentioned New Years. Were there any other sort of aspects of Japanese culture that your parents incorporated into your home life? Ken Oba: Well, they would make some, some Japanese dishes, you know foods. But that wasn' ; t like the vast majority. But they would, they would make some, you know, chicken teriyaki and, you know fish dishes. And I don' ; t think sushi so much because now I can see that' ; s kind of, kind of more time consuming to, to, to do. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were there any shops or restaurants that you remember from the South Side? Ken Oba: The only shop I remember is the grocery store. It was in Hyde Park, called Franklin Food. And that was there for a long time. I can remember going there and you know, well my dad carrying these big, I don' ; t know how heavy they were, they were like 30-pound or 50-pound you know, bags of rice and you know we would use, we would use that. But I remember Franklin Food was the main. I don' ; t remember any, necessarily any restaurants or, or anything... Or, or anything like that. I really, I really don' ; t. Emma Saito Lincoln: And during that time when you were growing up, did you or anyone in your family ever experience racism or bias? Ken Oba: I would say, I would say no. I' ; ll say as I got to be like in high school, I, I became more aware of bias. But not against myself or Japanese but more against you know well it' ; d be African Americans that you know had started moving into the South Side. And you know, again, I kinda witnessed, you know although I didn' ; t know it, that like the white flight as Caucasian homeowners you know, moved, moved away and... But really, but I, you know I know there were tensions there. And then when I was in high school when Martin Luther King was, was assassinated, that was, that was pretty tense you know? We were taken, it was pretty far from our high school home and you know getting on the bus. And, you know that was, you know so I became aware of... But just as a general of you know, kind of race relations, especially on the, on the South Side and kind of the coming of black gangs. You know, primarily at that time it was the Blackstone Rangers you know were becoming say like a, a thing a little bit. Emma Saito Lincoln: So I think, why don' ; t we transition to talking a little bit more about your path into adulthood and, and how your life took shape after high school. So, maybe if you could walk me through what you did after high school and then your move to the North Side. Ken Oba: Well really there isn' ; t... There isn' ; t very much you know. I, I started, you know my work career was, even in this day and age was pretty limited in terms of-- You know, I, I worked for the federal government as, as an auditor really through my whole, you know, whole, whole career. And, but then in terms of other things, you know really, I' ; ll say, I don' ; t know why, but I had, did have a sense of like community service. So then when I was, you know started working, which didn' ; t necessarily have anything necessarily to do with it, I, I started like donating blood, and then I, I started work--, you know not working for, but I was a big brother in the organization, Big Brothers, Big Sisters of Metropolitan Chicago. So I was a big brother to eventually like three young boys, one of whom was Japanese, and you know, he, he lived on, on the North Side, here. And I was also involved in the, what' ; s the... it' ; s the one that' ; s kind of opposite in the spectrum, the organization that deals with the, the elderly, you know elderly, elderly shut-in. Kind of... I can' ; t remember the name right now, but I know, you know I, actually I, actually I did some of their office work for, for a while. Emma Saito Lincoln: And somewhere along the way, you got married? Ken Oba: Yeah, I got married. You know, I was living on North Side. Met my wife you know, Kathy. You know she' ; s Irish, Irish Catholic, you know which was, you know kinda... You know, that does--, you know necessarily mean that much you know to, to me either way. I just remember you know our first date we went to you know kind a well known Japanese restaurant, Matsuya on Clark Street, near Wrigley Field. And then after that you know, she said she was sick. So, (laughs) so I didn' ; t know what to think about how things might proceed after that. But, you know she had said it was, wasn' ; t anything she ate at the restaurant or with me. And then kind of fast forwarding, you know we got, we got married, we had you know two kids, a boy and a girl. And fortunately, they, they' ; re grown up now. You know our daughter' ; s you know married and lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and has two, two little girls of her own, our granddaughters and we' ; re really, a lot of our time is spent you know doting on them. And our son is married and he and his wife live in Highland Park. They don' ; t, they don' ; t have kids, have kids yet. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you feel very welcomed by your wife' ; s family? Ken Oba: Oh, yes. Yeah. No really, really very much. You know and it was again, kind of looking at it, you know her father worked for the railroad for, for a long time, but kind of more important to that question, like one of his brothers had been killed you know in the Pacific theater in World War II. You know, but you know fortunately, you know they didn' ; t, they didn' ; t make a connection or you know that, you know t-to me or anything like that. And they were all, they were really very welcoming to me. And we spent many holidays you know at their house ' ; cause you know kinda by that time, after a while my dad was, was in California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And have you always lived in Chicago? Ken Oba: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: This whole time? Was that a choice to stay here or is it just sort of how, how it happened? Ken Oba: I, I' ; d say both. I mean there was really, you know all like my family was here, my friends were here and you know I didn' ; t, I was happy here. I had, you know for, for me, a good job and there wasn' ; t anything compelling to you know g-go elsewhere, you know? Especially after I met my wife, well then you know we wanted to... You know, she coincidentally grew up on the South Side of Chicago though we didn' ; t know each other, each other then. But we both loved Chicago but lived here all my life so-- (laughs) Emma Saito Lincoln: While you were raising your children, did you and your wife make any conscious effort to pass on your Japanese heritage to the children? Ken Oba: I' ; d say to the extent that we, we could, you know ' ; cause I' ; ll say since my Japanese heritage, I' ; ll say it was pretty limited, you know not speaking Japanese, you know, you know I' ; ll say not knowing a lot, a lot about the culture. But you know I, obviously I, you know, you know we, you know imparted to them that obviously they' ; re, they' ; re, they' ; re Japanese and you know they were ol--, when they were old enough, you know we explained about the camps and you know that my grand-- my, my parents had you know, had, had been in the camps. And I' ; ll say it was really important t-to them because they were both, you know in college, they were history majors. You know, kind of, and then my daughter being, you know she' ; s a principal at a charter school in San Jose. So I think from a education standpoint, you know she really, that' ; s kind of important to her. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you or your children taken any steps to try to reclaim some of that heritage that was lost between the generations? Ken Oba: I guess I' ; d have to say no, you know. ' ; Cause some of it is, you know my wife' ; s heritage is you know, Irish, Irish Catholic. Our kids went to a Catholic elementary school, then... You know, so-- So I guess what I' ; m saying is like you know my wife' ; s heritage is you know to me, just as important. And then my daughter, you know her husband coincidentally, he' ; s Irish, you know. So, I don' ; t know what that, what, what that means. And then our son, his wife is Cuban and I think probably German, primarily Cuban. And so, you know their heritage is, you know important too. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you ever had the opportunity to travel to Japan? Ken Oba: Yes. Took me, took me a long time. But finally, in 2013, my wife and I, we went to Japan, and it was kind of a group of us. My brother Wayne, who' ; s like three years younger, he went. But it was all arranged by my cousin Katie, who had grown up in Japan. You know, her mother was my dad' ; s sister. And, so she grew up in Japan. Then when she was going to college, she came and attended Northwestern University in, in Evanston. But she' ; s really like the family member that you know she lived everywhere, you know and she' ; s traveled everywhere. She' ; s gone to the Himalayas, she gone to Machu Picchu. And, but she had lived in Japan for a long time even though she had gone back and, and had lived in Tokyo. So she was used to arranging these like visits and showing people around. But, but anyway, at the time, you know she was living in, in the U.S. But then she arranged like a whole, you know, like three or four week you know, visit and we went all around and you know she had it all planned out. You know, we would, everything we were going to do every day, you know the subway we were going to take to here and the events, and-- But anyway, so we did eventually go to Fukuoka and see the, the family farm. And, so that was pretty, that, that was pretty interesting. So it' ; s kind of complicated in terms of-- The short version is my Uncle Masateru, he lives there. And his one, he has two daughters and one daughter lives in a house, you know also on the farm. The other daughter lives I think in the Fukuoka area. But what it was, was my grandfather took the family back to Japan. He remarried and had one daughter, then she married. But because in Japan she was going to be like the end of the Oba line, then Uncle Masateru, he took the Oba as, as his last name. But then she passed away. And then so he, he, he' ; s the one that, that lives at the, at the farm. You know, they don' ; t farm. I think they lease the, the farming, the fields or something like that. But he, he lives there in, in the house. Emma Saito Lincoln: What was, what was the experience like for you emotionally, going to Japan and experiencing it for the first time? Ken Oba: Well first, you know Japan was just you know just wonderful you know in terms of like the sights and sounds and... But you know especially going to you know Fukuoka to see where you know the you know, you know, what my dad' ; s family had, had grown up was, you know really interesting to see that' ; s where they had, had lived and you know made, made their lives and eventually decided to you know come to the U.S. That was really, you know that was really emotional you know, to, to, to see that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were you mistaken for Japanese while you were there? Ken Oba: All the time. You know and so that' ; s why that, we' ; d go to the hotels and I' ; d be with my wife and then we' ; d wanna, you know, need directions or ask at the desk and then inevitably, you know, they would start speaking Japanese and I' ; d be embarrassed and say, say, " ; I don' ; t speak Japanese." ; You know, ' ; cause in a way I was advised, actually by the person that was cutting my hair who was Japanese, I said I was going to Japan and her name was Kimi. And so I said, " ; Oh, maybe I should learn some Japanese phrases." ; But she advised against that because they said if I start saying like a little bit in Japanese, well they' ; ll think, " ; Oh okay, then let' ; s keep..." ; And so I just say, you know " ; I don' ; t speak." ; And I' ; ll say, you know in the way that was true because you know kind of unrelated to our Japan trip, my wife and I went to Prague because our daughter was studying abroad there. And then I said, " ; Oh okay, I' ; ll be, I' ; ll be good." ; And I learned a few words in Czech and then so I started talking you know to some of the people in stores... And then--And then I had to say, " ; No, that' ; s all I know!" ; you know! (laughs) So anyway, that' ; s kind of a long answer for that. But obviously, I was mistaken for you know being you know, really Japanese you know all, all, all the time. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we' ; ll switch gears a little bit and talk about your involvement here at JASC. And for several years now, you' ; ve been a volunteer here. And I' ; m curious to know, since it sounds like other than the blood drive, you weren' ; t particularly engaged with JASC or other JA organizations. So what motivated you to get involved, in retirement? Ken Oba: Well, after I retired you know I wanted to, looking for something to do and then for a couple years I volunteered at the Catholic high school that subsequently is closed, that was near our house. And actually, the principal of the Catholic grammar school where my kids went, she was working in that office. So, really it was, you know so I would work there and really it was, really it was pretty fun. It was like a block away. And so, then that was pretty--, but the school was closed you know due to low enrollment. So I kind of, I knew of the JASC and so then I just thought, " ; Well, that' ; d be a worthwhile and fun thing to do." ; So then I came by and filled out a form and you know that was probably in, you know probably six or seven years ago now. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what kinds of projects have you been involved in? Ken Oba: (laughs) Kind of all sorts of things. Initially, I would say, I, I kind of worked for the, the controller. But mainly, not doing accounting or anything but designing like forms you know to tally information for some of the, some of the, some of the different programs. And one of those was the chore housekeeping, which now has grown to be such a, a, a big thing, you know? But, so I was primarily, primarily doing that, designing like these, mainly like Excel spreadsheets to keep track of, you know, different, different things. And then, I don' ; t know, I was kind of getting tired of that. And then Karen Kanemoto was a Legacy Center director at the time and there were a couple archivists and they were scanning these, you know photo collections. And you know, so... you know I could see what they were doing. And so I said " ; Well, maybe I could do that." ; So then they trained me to scan all these photos from the different, different collections. And then over time, all the JASC employees that were part of that, you know, Karen, Karen left and then the archivists, they went on to bet-better things. So I was, in a way, in charge of that. As, as other volunteers would come, I would train them and you know continue scanning, scanning of the collections. Well, that' ; s kind of over with. But now I still work on these spreadsheets for the chore housekeeping and for the adult day service. Emma Saito Lincoln: What keeps you coming back to JASC? Ken Oba: Well really, I, I' ; d say it' ; s like the people. It' ; s you know the people, you know I' ; ve met like, you know so many nice people here, and really it' ; s a lot of fun and they have the events. You know it' ; s wonderful when they have, you know here in the warehouse, like the ADS has their parties and they have other, you know other events and really, it' ; s, you know their mission is really wonderful. But you know really, I' ; d say like, you know the people are really so, you know so, so, so nice. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what do you value most about JASC' ; s role in the Japanese American community? Ken Oba: I' ; d say like for honoring the Resettlers. But also like the... What am I trying to say? Just honoring like the, the Japane-- honoring and promoting like the Japanese culture. They have all the programs, like you know the language programs and, well they used to have ikebana and you know things you know things like that to kind of you know, preserve and perpetuate the Japanese culture. But you know I' ; ve seen it you know kind of shifted into, you know kind of-- Because they have to, like more modern issues of like social justice and you know I, I think that' ; s really, really wonderful, really. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think, let' ; s talk a little bit about what your family experienced during the war. And, and I know you don' ; t have a lot of details about that time period because your parents chose not to discuss it with you. Is there anything that looking back now, you wish you could ask your parents? Ken Oba: Well now, I w-- I would' ; ve been more interested in knowing about like their, the life in you know camps. You know like say you can read about it, and, and hear people, you know hear people talk about it. But it would be most compelling for me to hear my parents describe, well, they, they weren' ; t my parents at time, but hear them describe what their lives you know you know were like and... You know good, bad or indifferent. It' ; d be... ' ; Cause to me, I just picture it as being awfully hard and I, I' ; m just amazed they were able to... you know like a lot of you know resettlers from the camps really make, make a life for themselves, you know? It just seemed like it was, you know I don' ; t know how like my wife er-- my mom you know became a nurse and you know it just seems you know, pretty, pretty, pretty amazing to me. So I say I had it pretty easy. Just seemed like go to school, go to college, get a job. But, you know I, I' ; d like to ask ' ; em like how, you know kind of how life was in the camp and you know how it, how they felt about how they kind of felt about that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you or your family members participated in any reunions or, or pilgrimages? I know you mentioned you and your wife stopped at Poston. But have you participated in any of the more organized gatherings? Ken Oba: No, not, not, not really. Because in a way I, I guess I, you know, maybe I misunderstand what they are at times. But I thought some of them were like for the survivors of the camps. Well, you know obviously that' ; s not, you know not the case anymore. But you know maybe there are, are some where it' ; s not just the survivors or, or something like that. But really, really I, I' ; ve been to the JASC when they' ; ve had talks about the camps and then this was a while ago, I think. It was actually Daniel Inouye, you know he spoke, spoke here about his experience in the camps, and, you know and stuff. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you stopped at Poston, you said there wasn' ; t much there... Ken Oba: No, it was, it was... We would' ; ve passed right by it unless we knew what we were looking for, that there was like a, like the main, not the structure but the thing of note, it' ; s like a sculpture. It' ; s like a gun barrel pointed, you know up. You know, but it' ; s just really a small, roadside thing. So unless you' ; re looking for that you know you, you might pass it because all the buildings, you know they' ; re... Well, the original buildings I think are almost all gone, that were out of, made out of wood. The ones that were of you know brick or something other than wood. But they' ; re in like terrible condition. They were all fenced around, you couldn' ; t get, you, you couldn' ; t, you, you couldn' ; t get close to them, but... Emma Saito Lincoln: How did that make you feel, when you arrived at that site and that' ; s what you found? Ken Oba: Well, I thought it was too bad because I know at some of the camps although I haven' ; t been there, like I think at Manzanar and there are a few others I think maybe they' ; ve... You know ' ; cause, ' ; cause I' ; ve been to the Japanese American National Museum and, and they have, I don' ; t know if they' ; re like recreations or of some of the, the camps. So, so I, I thought that at some of the camps, they have a little bit more preserved of the camp itself. But the most compelling thing at Poston was, you know all the camps probably have a story. But you know at Poston, it was like either the only or one of the few of those on Bureau of Indian Affairs Land. And what it was, was that land you know was on the Indian reservation, Colorado, Colorado River Indian tribes. But the land was pretty arid and you know, nothing would grow. So someone at at the BIA had the idea of well, locate the camp here on the reservation, use the labor from the, you know the internees to irrigate the land. And it' ; s now it, you know it, it' ; s just like you just see these green fields all over. But, so it was really, you know they made the land livable and you know good farming, you know farming, farming wise. And so then obviously, that' ; s been turned back over to the you know to the tribes and you know tribes and stuff. But it makes me sad that like, you know that the internees get you know kind of taken advantage of you know, you know kind of in multiple ways. You know they' ; re uprooted and then they' ; re like, not forced labor, but it was like, " ; Well, here' ; s what you, what you' ; re going to have do." ; Because it was a movie, it' ; s called " ; Passing Poston" ; . You know, I thought that was really pretty compelling. We saw that years ago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know if your parents, well I guess it would be your father, received redress payment? Ken Oba: H-he did. Emma Saito Lincoln: And an apology letter. Ken Oba: He did, but my mother didn' ; t ' ; cause she was deceased because you had to be surviving, but my dad, dad did. Emma Saito Lincoln: And at that time, were you very aware or did you understand what the redress movement was about? Ken Oba: I' ; d say yes. Yeah, I was. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you remember how your father reacted when he received his check and his letter? Ken Oba: I think he was happy obviously to you know get, get the money. I don' ; t know if you know the apology meant you know that, that much to him or, or anything like that. I think I do have that letter in you know in his, you know a few of his you know papers. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think maybe to wrap up here, I have a few questions sort of looking, looking forward into the future. And, what would you most like your children and your grandchildren and future generations to know about your own life but also about your family' ; s history? Ken Oba: Well, tell you the truth, I don' ; t think you know for, for my life, I just hope, hope they know that you know I did our, you know my wife and I did our best to, you know for our kids and you know our, our, our grandkids. But I' ; d say in terms of like a more dramatic you know struggle and effort, you know that was you know like my parents... But also like my, my, my wife' ; s parents. So that' ; s why I, I don' ; t you know kind of emphasize you know what my parents did. But it was the same thing with my wife' ; s parents you know they... You know long ago, they had come from Ireland you know and had to deal with, you know at the time, you know kind of you know discrimination in, in, in their own right. So it' ; s more like to my kids of, of recognizing that you know kind of in terms of social justice that you know people want to come to America and you know they, they deserve that right to make their lives here and you know you need to you know you need to kind of respect you know, respect that as citizens of the world I think. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what would you like to see happening in the Chicago Japanese American community today and into the future? Ken Oba: I think it' ; s kind of difficult ' ; cause they' ; re... I think the Japanese American community is you know kind of dwindling just ' ; cause you know like, you know... But I' ; d say t-to you know to honor, you know I' ; d say the people that came to Chicago and... But the Japanese culture, that' ; s why a lot of the things that JASC does I think are, are really, are really wonderful. Especially like we' ; re seeing here, like the Tampopo, you know program, I think that' ; s, that' ; s really wonderful. But also with the eye that that' ; s like how, you know what all people want that you know come here, whether they come from you know, Mexico or the Middle East and you know to really you know kind, kind of embrace that. Again, it' ; s like citizens of the world ' ; cause I think that' ; s you know, I think that' ; s what' ; s more important going forward. Emma Saito Lincoln: Would you say that your, your own relationship with the Japanese American community has, has changed over time? Ken Oba: I' ; ll say I understand it a bit more, especially you know being here at the JASC and you know attending a number of the events, and you know just seeing what the JASC does on a, on a daily basis. So I, it' ; s given me like a lot of, you know a lot of appreciation. And then one aspect of that is like, well, they haven' ; t been here for a while now, but like the Judo group that was here, you know just, just seeing you know that as part of you know the culture is, you know interesting. Emma Saito Lincoln: Since some of the work that you' ; ve done here as a volunteer was with the Legacy Center collections, I' ; d like to know why you think the Japanese American Legacy Center-- Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center matters? Ken Oba: Well I think the, you know I' ; m primarily familiar with the, the photo, you know the photo collections, but I think they really document you know an important period you know for those families. But also you know historically for Japanese in Chicago and you know what they, what they did growing up. And, you know I, I really think that' ; s important, and so that you know their, you know maybe members of their family or people that knew them can view that. But also you know people you know interested in, you know history or I want to say, I don' ; t know if it' ; s like social science, but you know they can kind of see well this is, you know how the people, how, how, how they kind of lived. Emma Saito Lincoln: And to close things out here, what do you love most about living in Chicago? Ken Oba: ' ; Cause it has all the good memories of you know me growing up, and raising my kids, meeting my wife. You know it' ; s, it' ; s just really, it' ; s just really, it' ; s just really home, you know I just really, you know ' ; cause it' ; s the only place I' ; ve known as, as home. I love going to the West Coast, but you know really, really love coming back to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Well, I think that' ; s, that' ; s it for my questions. Thank you very much. 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