Hikawa, Barbara and Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (6/23/2021)

Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is June 23rd, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln and the interviewee is Barbara Hikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese-Americans in the Chicago area. So to get us started, could you please state your full name for me?

Barbara Hikawa (BH): Barbara Hikawa.

EL: And what name do you go by?

BH: I- But I go by Sunnie.

EL: And what year were you born in?

BH: I was born in 1949.

EL: And where?

BH: In Chicago, at Frank Cuneo Memorial Hospital, which no longer exists.

EL: And is Chicago also where you grew up?

BH: I grew up here, and I went away-- only away when I went to college and 00:01:00graduate school.

EL: And where were your parents born and raised?

BH: My mom was born in Las Animas, Colorado because my grandfather had a, a ranch there. And my grandfather-- my father was born in Walnut Creek, California which is near Sacramento.

EL: And what about your grandparents?

BH: So I believe all of my grandparents were from Yamanashi-ken. That's the Mount Fuji, I think -ken and I'm pretty sure my grand- my maternal grandparents are from there. And my maternal, my paternal grandmother, I don't know about my paternal grandfather because he died when I was, before I was born.

EL: Do you happen to know approximately when your grandparents on either side first came to the U.S.?

BH: Well, I think that my maternal grandfather was actually a very early arrival. I feel like there may be a family story that he came when the San 00:02:00Francisco earthquake happened that he was there, which would be like 1903? So I think that was pretty early, I don't think many others came 'til the teens but I could be wrong about that. So I think he came, and then later I think my grandmother must have been a picture bride or something and came. And then my paternal grandparents I don't know when they came.

EL: Do you have any idea what motivated them to immigrate?

BH: I don't. I do k-, well let's see, the pater- the maternal grandfather who came early, was I believe he was one of those sons he was like the second of a bunch of sons so he was given to another family to have their name to carry on the name. So, I don't know.

EL: And you said your, your maternal grandparents had a ranch?

BH: Maternal grandparents had a ranch in Colorado.

EL: Okay, and on your paternal side do you know what their, what your 00:03:00grandfather's occupation was in the U.S.?

BH: I don't know about them, 'cause let's see he died, he died e-early I guess. They, my father had four brothers. And then, no, he had a brother, and then sh- my grandmother remarried and there were three more sons, and then that fa- stepfather died bef- when I was really little, that I don't remember so--

EL: I see.

BH: So she was always just kind of a strong woman on her own.

EL: Do you know on either side whether their pre-war homes were within communities of other Japanese-Americans or Japanese people?

BH: Their pre-war homes? Oh, I, I do know that my mom has many friends from that era who are Japanese-American. So I assume that yes, that came, that came to different places in the country and I've heard about them and know them. I think 00:04:00they-- her mom took in like some kids from another family even, and they lived in Florida. She had a friend in New Jersey, and another friend from Chicago I think he's-- he died a few years ago.

EL: And those are all people that your mother knew in Colorado?

BH: In Colorado. So there's I think a small Colorado group of, of Nisei, Issei and Nisei and then my dad's-- I don't, Walnut Creek sounds like it might have had a, a Japanese-- but I, Japanese American population but I don't know.

EL: Did your parents ever talk about their childhood experiences with you?

BH: Not much you know, the Nisei didn't talk that much about themselves. My mom had a younger brother who died when he was like two, like ate some poison berries. And I think that was always a big blow that the son died, and that, so my paternal grandfather I think was very, connected-- proud of, you know, my 00:05:00father. That, she married this guy. So he became like the son they never had. Whereas, he came from five sons, but he was the oldest. And, I'm sorry, what was your question? If they talked about--

EL: Just about their childhood, what, what kinds of experiences they had?

BH: Well I know my mom learned to drive a tractor at 11, that's about all I know. My dad, I think told me that he used to eat tortillas with the Mexican farm hands in the fields with hot dogs. (laughs)

EL: So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about wartime, and let's start with just when and where your family was incarcerated?

BH: They were all, all of them were in Tule Lake. So I think my maternal, my paternal grandmother had a grocery store in Walnut Creek, or Sacramento? I don't know. And I think at that time my pat- my maternal grandparents had sold the ranch and had moved to California. So they- so both sides were all sent to Tule 00:06:00Lake, where my maternal grandfather was like the block captain or something? These people in charge of things sort of. And my mom worked on the Tule Lake newsletter. She was the secretary, you know, illustrator, she made the covers. She was, my mom was an artist. And um-- Yeah, so they all-- My dad always tells the story how, he was graduating from high school and his- he wanted to buy a car. And he had his eye on this car, he had saved up the money, he was going to get the car-- and then he got interned. So.

EL: So your father was just at the tail end of high school, how old was your mother?

BH: She was a, she was exactly- they had the same birthday, she was exactly a year younger. So, I guess he had just graduated and she was going to graduate.

EL: Was she able to finish her high school education in camp?

BH: You know that's a good question, I don't know. I mean I know she went to community college, before-- You know? That doesn't-- I don't know, I, I guess not. I don't know, I mean I know she went to college later so-- I guess so?

EL: And what can you tell me about their experiences or your grandparent's experiences at Tule Lake? Did they ever talk to you about that time?

BH: No. They don't talk about it. My mother, who is strangely-- she has-- Well, they may not be so strange, it may be pretty typical, I'm not sure, for Nisei. Will say, "Oh, it wasn't so bad. It was not that bad, we had fun." You know she was there, there were a lot of young-- other people her age, teenagers I guess. Seventeen, eighteen-year-olds and they had fun or whatever. Though, we did find a sketchbook of hers from that period, and there's pictures of the, the sheds and the camp and everything.

EL: Do you have any idea maybe what kinds of things they brought with them, or what they might have left behind?

BH: No.

EL: No?

BH: They, they have, obviously had to leave everything behind. The grocery store, sell a grocery store in three days and all the inventory? Yeah.

EL: Do you know what their living quarters were like?

BH: I don't. I mean they were in a stable, right? But I think they were, like maybe just my grandparents and my mom and-- I-- but I don't know for sure.

EL: And then at some point your father was able to leave camp?

BH: Right. He, the one way to get out was to go dig-- is it sugar beets? Something like that, up in Idaho or someplace like that? And so he signed up for that to get out of the camp. And he said that was just horrible, horrible, brack-baking, brack-bak-, back-breaking terrible work. And so he did not want to 00:09:00do that anymore so when the opportunity came to leave-- to enlist, he was ready to do that. And I guess they, there were some problems at the camp, I think Tule Lake had a bunch of, a lot of resistance people, so they, in the middle of the night, they got in a truck and left. So, like nobody knew that they were leaving, it was like they were whisked away.

EL: Do you know what his motivations were for serving? Was it mostly as a way out of camp, or was it patriotism?

BH: (laughs) Well that's a good question. I, you know, the way he tells it, yeah he wanted to get out of camp. I'm sure there's a patriotic motive in there.

EL: And do you know how his parents felt about it when he made that decision?

BH: I'm sure they were fine with it. Trying to think, the f- of the four 00:10:00brothers, probably at least three of them were with him. I think one might have gone, I think one maybe went back to Japan. Like they were given that choice, go to the camp or go to Japan, and I think the second brother may have done that. The other three went with my dad I think. And then they all, I think joined the Army too.

EL: So what unit did he serve in?

BH: So he was in the military intelligence. And I hope I'm not jumping your questions, but he's got some, he had a great story about it which I only found out about when my second husband passed away and his family had come for the funeral and my dad just started talking. I had never heard him tell these stories. And so he told this story about the military intelligence service that he was in, which I've later read, I think-- And I knew he was in Minnesota, so I'm assuming that's why he was in Minnesota was where, that's where they were training them. Well there were some people like him who spoke English perfectly, he was born and raised here, and he could understand s- you know Japanese, but 00:11:00he could speak English perfectly. But he wasn't very good at writing or reading. And then there were other people who were really good at writing Japanese, but they weren't so good at speaking English. And then there are other people who could read it really well, but then they couldn't write it-- Anyway there were three different types of skills, and what they discovered was, that in order to make one complete translator they had to have three people. To like really do like, hear what the thing was-- the person was saying in Japanese or read the, the document in Japanese and then sort of be able to tell it to my dad who then could translate in English and tell people what they were saying. But the Army he said, this is how efficient the Army is. So they made these groups of three. They all had their assignments and they're in groups of three. And then when they got deployed they were all separated and sent to different troops. So all that work and-- I don't know, he said, "That's the army for you." (laughs)

EL: Were his brothers also serving in the MIS?

BH: Uh no, they weren't in MIS I don't think. But I think they were in some other combat or something.

EL: And do you know where he was sent during the war?

BH: He was in the South Pacific. So I mean he does talk about-- he, I do know he was in the South Pacific with MacArthur.

EL: And while he was serving, his brothers were also serving, one brother was in Japan, his parents were still in camp, correct?

BH: Yes.

EL: Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about, connected to his military service, can you tell me about after the war, his involvement in the Nisei Post?

BH: Oh, well, alright so-- I'll kind of be broad here. My grandfather on my mother's side, remember I said he was like the block captain but had also come over as-- he'd also been given a name that wasn't his name, but I believe th- a 00:13:00cousin of his, like a blood cousin, had come to Chicago and was part of the Resettlers Committee. So that's why they came here to Chicago. And then my dad was up in Minnesota and I think he had known my mom, but was dating somebody else at the time. But then he started coming down and seeing my mom, that's when they got together. And wait, and your question is-- how--

EL: Nisei Post.

BH: --Nisei Post. Oh, well then--

EL: (laughs) But this is also very interesting!

BH: --Yeah, but so then, after the war, they settled in Chicago. And well my guess is anybody who was a veteran would join the, the American Legion Nisei Post. 'Cause there were plenty of you know four, four four two, 442nd and MIS people here so, there was a, a solid Japanese American community, not huge but you know pretty well connected. And I do know, I actually met somebody from the, from, from New York or something, a, a Nisei woman who had never been interned 00:14:00because she was on the East Coast. So they didn't get interned, or Hawaii.

EL: So let's, let's rewind a little bit then, 'cause you were trying to explain about your parents and how part of your family came to Chicago, and then your father was coming down to Chicago, so-- Your parents had met in camp?

BH: Yeah, I think they knew each other. Right, so-- I mean, you know they, they knew of each other maybe or something. And then, I don't know how that switched that my dad suddenly started visiting to see my mom. And then yeah, his family came out to Chicago too.

EL: And what about your, your dad's parents, where did they go after camp?

BH: Well that-- I don't know when, I don't exactly how-- But I-- this was what I was, what I had written to you. My pat- my father's mother had a boarding house 00:15:00in Chicago that was like a way station for a lot of Nisei or even-- Is it Nikkei? People from Japan? Coming through Chicago. So, a lot of people would come and stay there and live there for a few years before getting married or doing something else. So that, she was sort of known I think, with that.

EL: Did that have a name, did the building have a name?

BH: No. It was--

EL: Do you know where, where it was located?

BH: Yeah I do know where it was. It was-- Let's see what was it? It was something like 1122 or 1022 North LaSalle.

EL: And what was her name?

BH: Her name was Wakao Hikawa. But my father's father, blood father was named Sato. But he took my, his stepfather's name of Hikawa.

EL: So at what point did your parents actually marry?

BH: That's a good question, I don't know? Let's see, I was born in 1949 and I think they were married for probably a couple years before that? So 47, 46, 45? I don't know.

EL: And at that point in time, were they both working?

BH: Let's see-- Oh my dad, on the GI Bill, he got into Harvard Law School and Northwestern Law School and he wanted, my mom wanted him to go to Harvard, but he wanted to stay in Chicago so I think he went to Northwestern. So he was in law school, I think probably at the very beginning and then he became a lawyer. And so she was-- I think, she was helping out at-- Oh, the name is going to escape me but it was another pretty prominent Chicago Japanese American family. Is it Yamamoto maybe? The Yamamotos, they had a, he had a trading import company 00:17:00and so she worked there with him. --Or, Dick Yamada? Well anyway-- (laughs)

EL: And then you're born in 1949, do you have siblings? I do, I have two younger sisters. My second sister lives in-- now, Greenwich, Connecticut and Palm Beach, Florida and she was a lawyer at-- um, vice president at ABC television. And my youngest sister is the associate principal violist of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Symphony, and she's been there for like 40 years so she's a real Los Angeleno.

EL: And where did you all grow up? Which neighborhood?

BH: We all grew up in Uptown, which was a changing neighborhood at the time. It was, it had been really Jewish, and then it was starting to just change over to Appalachian white people were moving in. And I remember a Chinese laundry family 00:18:00moved in, and I used to play with that son. There was a lot of playing in the neighborhood with a lot of different kids. And so it was changing over.

EL: And what schools did you go to?

BH: All, we all went to Francis Parker School which is a private school not in our neighborhood. We should have gone to Goudy Public School but we didn't. And, and then Senn High School but we went to Francis Parker.

EL: And was Francis Parker all the way through from K through 12?

BH: (nods) I started at 5 years old, went through high school and my sister started at 4 years old and went through high school.

EL: Were there many other Japanese-American families in your orbit at that time, or at your school?

BH: Not at my school, no. There was a Korean kid in my class, which is, I think how we got to Parker because his father was a dentist and he'd been in dental school at Northwestern when my dad was in law school and they'd gotten to be buddies. And that's how my dad found out about Francis Parker. But other than 00:19:00that, no not at Parker. But in the neighborhood, every summer I went to the Park District Day Camp and then I did meet more neighborhood kids and there was a, there were a couple of Japanese American Sanseis like me, and so--

EL: Did your family participate in any Japanese American organizations?

BH: Oh yes, (laughs) of course they did. So, I s- mentioned that we, my grandparents went to the Presbyterian Church on Sheffield. But not, then my family when I was like five, we switched to Christ Congregational Church on Buckingham. And there was a huge Sunday school, I mean there must have been two hundred kids and, and they also had like a volleyball league for teenagers. So my cousins, my sort of cousins from the original family of my grandfather's cousin, like my mom's second or third cousin. They were older than us and they 00:20:00played in like that volleyball or softball league. And my dad was in the American Legion Post 1183, right? God, my memory is going. And they started a Drum and Bugle Corps so I participated in the Drum and Bugle Corps. And through that, you really got to know there were like six Japanese churches. So there was like the Presbyterian Church, there was our church Tri-C, there was MBT which is Midwest Buddhist Chur- Temple and now it's called BTC, Buddhist Temple of Chicago but back then we just called it-- something else I can't remember. And CFC, Christian Fellowship Church, maybe a couple others, JCJC Japanese Church of Jesus Christ, and one that was on Lakeside I think. Um-- but so you, as teenagers you kind of, if you had a dance, if one group had a, if the Legion Posts had a dance, all the other people from all the other churches your age might show up, you know the Eagle Scouts and-- And then Drum Corps was started 00:21:00out mostly Japanese American but then changed. And then I remember my parents joined a group or started a group with a bunch of other Japanese Americans called The Co-Op Investors, cooperative investors. And so that was a big part our li- of our lives. A lot of those people I know were good friends of my parents and they always had a big Christmas party that we looked forward to every year and I think they socialized and had dances and stuff.

EL: Can you explain to me what that group did?

BH: Oh yeah, it was an investment group, they invested money.

EL: So they pooled their funds and--

BH: They pooled their funds I guess and did investments, I don't know.

EL: Were they investing in, in other community efforts? Or community, or--

BH: I was a kid, I didn't know what they did. It was just, "Co-Op Investors" and I think they had a credit union maybe, I was able to get, start a little savings account or something with them and, and a bunch of those people's kids I knew 00:22:00who also went to Drum and Bugle Corps, stuff like that so--

EL: And about Drum and Bugle Corps, what kinds of activities did you do as part of that?

BH: Well, mostly t-the drum and bugle corps. We had you know, practices like twice a week or whatever and then marching practice and then we'd go to competitions and parades and-- And so you were with those people a lot (laughs). But they started getting bigger and, and lettin-- like more people start to join from all over the city and far away.

EL: I think we'll pause there.

--

EL: And we have an additional interviewee has joined us, so could you please introduce yourself?

Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (CDH): Hi, my name is Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa and I am Sunnie Hikawa's daughter.

EL: And in what year were you born?

CDH: 1974.

EL: Okay, and you were born here in Chicago?

CDH: Um, I was actually born on the West Coast in Oregon but we moved here, back 00:23:00here when I was very young maybe 2 or so? Or a baby, yeah I think?

BH: Yeah.

EL: And then you've--

CDH: And then I've lived here ever since, yes.

EL: Okay, so let's switch back to what we were talking about. We had just finished discussing the Drum and Bugle Corps and the many organizations that your family was part of. In particular, church. And could you explain to me your involvement in the choir at church?

BH: Well so, let's see. So I, I would say I grew up in the church. Um-- You know I think the Nisei population here was close-knit in that most of them knew everybody and they all did things with-- amongst themselves. Whereas my generation I would say-- We spread out a little bit more. Yes we still had Sansei friends, but we also had other friends too. Whereas I would say most of my parents' friends, most, were, if they weren't work colleagues, were Japanese 00:24:00American-- were also Nisei. So the church, I'd gone there as a child, and then I went away to college. I got married, I had kids, and I decided I think I had, I think at, at some point I decided to go sing in the choir. So, 'cause my family was very musical, we had all been musi- musical, studied music. So I decided to sing in the choir and then they lost the choir director and they asked me if I would be the choir director. So without having experience I gained it by doing it on the job. And then oh about five la- years later I actually did get my job at Francis Parker as music teacher accompanist/companist, and then got a master's degree in music. So then I was the choir director for a long time! (laughs) For 30, I don't know 35 years, maybe more? 40?

EL: And, what did you find most rewarding about that?

BH: You know that the church is a wonderful group of people. A very caring and supportive group of people, and so it was just, it was-- and there were also quite, some very good singers and good musicians in the choir. So it was pretty fun to work with them and create music.

EL: And I understand this choir connection is, is a thread that carries through to the next generation so could you explain a little bit about that?

BH: Well I, I was also working full-time, and I started to get burned out from the two jobs. And so I decided to retire from the choir job. And so they said okay, and they put up a listing, and my daughter Chelsea who is also, has a music degree, decided to apply for the job, and she got it!

CDH: Yes, about 10 years ago. So I applied, and initially of course I thought, "Oh well I'm Sunnie's daughter, I grew up in the church, of course I'm gonna 00:26:00just be given this job!" But they had an entire application process so I had to t- apply and I had interviews and everything and then I got the job as choir director, as music director. And so I've been doing it for about the last 10 years I'd say, and it's been wonderful.

EL: How does it make you feel as a mother to know that you've passed on this--

BH: (Laughs)

EL: --both the talent and the position to your daughter?

BH: Oh, it's, it's great! It's great because I can, we can talk about it, and we- I understand the, the problems or the issues that, that she might encounter. And, you know, and so I still sing in the choir for her.

CDH: She still helps me a lot. She's still quite present, and actually this past year because of the pandemic we sort of jointly worked together. I have two young sons who were hybrid learning and so I had kind of a difficult year and my mom h-- now that she's retired, she was actually had time to help me. So we were 00:27:00able to go completely virtual with the choir and she learned an entirely new set of skills to master it and so we did that jointly. That was a really fun project that we, we mastered, and recorded.

BH: To make virtual choir videos.

CDH: Yeah, virtual-- more than 20 songs that we worked on over the year with, with our choir.

BH: (smiles) They're online, and anybody can hear it.

CDH: They're on YouTube, you can watch them. (laughs)

EL: And, and one of those was part of the Memorial Day program correct?

BH: Right, because for the last, I don't know, 30 years a lot of the other choirs of the other Japanese churches kind of faded away, but ours remained quite vibrant. And so they asked us to perf- to sing for the the Memorial Day services so every year we're the church that they ask to do that. And, this year, as in the past they, well they decided on a virtual service, and I guess--

CDH: Right, Karen Kanemoto had written to me saying, "Do y- is there anything that you could submit?" and I was like, "Oh, well coincidentally, actually we've been working on videos for our choir for the last six months so I definitely 00:28:00have a good selection I could send you."

EL: How has the past year changed how you view choir leadership? I mean aside from having to take on a new skill set and adapt to things being virtual, has it, has it altered how you think about leading a choir?

CDH: Yes, I think so. But I, I have to think about that. I think it became even more apparent to me that it's actually a really fundamental part of community and a worship service that, I think everyone understands that music is so powerful but when you don't have access to it, it's absolutely just so important and people really feel the lack of it. So when the pandemic first happened, and I was just singing solos every week and it wasn't quite the same thing and then my mom had the idea, we should try and actually do this virtual thing and I was worried, a lot of our choir members are older and it's a really hard new thing 00:29:00to learn with computers I was like, "Oh, I'm not sure it's gonna be really complicated." But my mom was like, "No, I really think we can do it, we'll, we'll figure it out step by step and do it together." And we did. And I think initially people were hesitant, but then--

BH: Oh, they were hesitant. (laughs)

CDH: They were hesitant (laughs) to do this. But then when we did, and they saw that we were still recreating this, this powerful experience of singing together, even though we weren't actually, technically in the same place, it was just-- it was--

BH: The response was--

CDH: The response was huge, and people were so appreciative, and I just think more than ever people recognized that, that music, that singing together in harmony is such a fundamental part of being a human. Like it's really taken on even more import don't you think?

BH: Yeah. And I think that, I think our church was proud because they pivoted so quickly to online services, but I was noticing they just felt kind of lacking something. So I'm glad we did that.

CDH: Yeah, and actually the really beautiful thing, (to BH) did you talk about Makoto and, an--

BH: Oh! No I didn't, oh!

CDH: So of course, the one silver lining about doing virtual choir is that anyone can participate regardless of where they are in the world, and we have some wonderful members of the church who've moved back to Japan, and have never been able to sing with us again. But then they joined again, and they've been singing in our virtual choir this whole year.

BH: Yup.

CDH: So that's been a really big li- silver lining.

EL: Is your church still majority Japanese American?

CDH: Yeah?

BH: Yeah?

CDH: Maybe half and half? Or maybe even more than half?

BH: Maybe probably still majority, yeah.

EL: Do you have any sense if that's also the case for the other churches that were prominent in the Japanese American community when you were growing up?

BH: I'm going to guess that we are more diverse than some of those that have survived. I mean I know that the Presbyterian Church that was on Sheffield, and then they've moved to Ravenswood area, right? Is that where Elaine's sister goes?

CDH: I can't remember.

BH: That-- it's a more fundamental church.

CDH: Yeah.

BH: And I understand they're doing very well. Like they have a, a they're pretty, they have a pretty good population.

CDH: Yeah.

BH: But I think it's mostly Japanese American, but I don't know, so maybe I should stop.

CDH: Yeah I think our church makes a very concerted effort to be very much about social justice and interaction with the community. And we happen to be located in West Ridge, which is a very diverse community, though obviously not that many Japanese Americans. And so that's taken on more of a presence in the church. And we're open and affirming as well so--

EL: So we talked a little bit, Sunnie, about your upbringing and your school experience, but Chelsea I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about your Chicago upbringing as a Japanese American and whether, you know whether you had Japanese American classmates at school or whether you were engaged in a lot of 00:32:00social activities or organizations out- other than church that had a JA focus.

CDH: Right so at school, at Francis Parker where I attended in the eighties and nineties, I think it became much less diverse than it had been when my mom was there previously. I think it's gotten more diverse again, but it was a very homogeneous period back then, so my classmates and I would always joke that there was one and a half Japanese people in the class. There's one other classmate who was Japanese and then me, being half Asian. And that might have been the only Asians in, in my whole grade actually. There was not a lot of Asians back there, then. However, I did grow up in the Japanese church in that I had to go every Sunday, and I was always at all of the cultural events. That was, I, I feel very large part of my life as a child. I can remember all the things we celebrated, you know Aki-Matsuri, and making ozoni, and all these things that, that were culturally important to me when I was a kid. And I did 00:33:00spend a lot of time with my maternal grandparents growing up, with my mom's parents. And so I think both for me and my sister that informed a lot of how we feel about like eating Japanese American cuisine like we really, really used to doing things like that. And I did also study taiko drum at Midwest Buddhist Temple when I was in high school and I really enjoyed that. But in my school experience I would say no, there was very little exposure or kinship with other Asians. And actually, I can remember in eighth grade my mom felt that Parker was not a diverse community, and she really wanted me to switch and go to Whitney Young where at least there'd be more people of color. But I was very attached to my friends, and I didn't want to move so I stayed there the whole time. But I feel like a-- both my sister and I studied Japanese, the language in college and we both studied abroad in Japan 'cause that was very interesting to us. And so I feel like much more in college I was able to access that part of my cultural heritage.

EL: When you were young, did you have much awareness of the history of 00:34:00incarceration and what your family had been through during the war?

CDH: I think when I was very young I did not. I'm, I'm, I'm thinking I became more aware of that maybe as a preteen? And also I would say like, for my grandfather he would sometimes speak about his experiences with um-- he was with Military Intelligence translating in the Pacific, my grandmother was incarcerated at Tule Lake and she would never talk about it. Right?

BH: (shakes head)

CDH: It was a very taboo subject for her. So even if you would ask her directly about it, it was just something she didn't want to discuss, so I think as a child I was not aware of that but definitely as a preteen I, I became more cognizant of what had happened.

EL: Was that because it was taught to you at school? Or did you hear, h-hear it from your mother or other community members?

CDH: I'm trying to remember, I, I don't know. I know, well actually, 'member? I think I was in high school there was a, an interesting exhibit at the Field 00:35:00Museum about Japanese American women in Chicago. Do you remember that? And we performed there. It was, it was back in the 90s I think there was actually an exhibit.

BH: Oh maybe, yeah.

CDH: So I know that was a part of it, and I, I'm not sure? Maybe at church, I'm not, I'm not sure.

EL: And Sunnie did you, do you have a memory of learning about incarceration at a specific point in your life, or did you kind of always know about it?

BH: No, I, I don't know-- I can't pinpoint a spot, but I do know, I told you that we-- I have this old, yellowed, Tribune magazine from, I'm going to say 1954? No, probably 1958 or 9. That, where they did an article about the incarceration, and they interviewed my family. --or they did an article about my family and I think it was because of the incarceration. So-- that's probably it.

CDH: I just remembered something.

BH: Oh you did?

CDH: So I don't remember when reparations were given, but I was a teen or pre-teen and my grandparents did receive reparations. And I remember that.

EL: Did you understand at that time what it was for?

CDH: I think it, then it was explained to me. That Grandma and Grandpa are getting money from the government, why is this happening, what are they gonna do with it, and then I can remember that being like, "Oh yes, so the government is finally apologizing." And I remember it was sad for my grandparents because their parents were the ones who substantially lost property, but they were not alive anymore to receive the apology and the reparations. I can remember that quite well.

EL: Do you remember your grandparents' emotional response?

CDH: Not real-- I feel like they were like, "It's about time!" (laughs) But, maybe they didn't discuss that with me as much.

BH: Yeah.

EL: Were they at all involved in the redress movement, or, or were you Sunnie?

BH: No, not at all, my guess is that it was incidental. It had happened, it was 00:37:00done, moving on. Oh, here's this check, isn't that nice?

EL: And this question is, is really for both of you, when you were growing up or in adulthood, did you ever experience racism or bias due to your identity?

BH: Well, I have one story I always tell. Which is that when I was about 10, I was going to the grocery store and this kid yelled at me from across the street, "Ching, chong, Chinaman!" something like that. And I remember the shock, and the with being, what, withdrawing. But then I pulled myself together and said, "I'm not Chinese, I'm Japanese!" But, like, I really showed him! (laughs) What a good 00:38:00repartee, retort. So I remember that very clearly.

CDH: I have, well I have a couple stories. I do remember as a teenager walking down Diversey right by your house, with my grandparents, Courtney and I, and a bunch of drunk people were coming out of the bars and they surrounded Grandma and Grandpa and started yelling "Ching Chong" in their faces. And my sister and I got up in their faces and were like, "Leave our grandparents alone!" and they ran away, but I remember that very distinctly. They just surrounded them and started yelling, "ching-chong-ching-chong-ching" right in Grandma and Grandpa's faces. So that was crazy. Me personally, because I'm biracial, people don't always know what I am, often they think I'm Latina. I've actually experienced name calling because of that. But I did have a pretty crazy experience about 10 years ago, I was walking in the Little Saigon neighborhood with my husband and his friend, and this man came up and punched me as hard as they could in the 00:39:00chest a couple times and knocked the wind out of me. And at the time I thought, "What is happening, is it 'cause I'm a woman? Like I can't be 'cause I'm Asian? Like what is happening?" And we called the police, and they picked him up and he told the police officer I was a, a, "Chink Gook Bitch" sorry. And I had to get out of his neighborhood. So that was very shocking to me, but that did happen about 10 years ago.

EL: Wow, especially given what's going on now--

CDH: Mhmm.

EL: --that's incredible to know that you experienced that, not during this current wave, but, but prior to it.

CDH: No, I, I think that just shows that it's always been there but it's just much more public, public now that people are aware of that, but I'm sure incidences like that happe- have happened for the last fifty years. And yeah, I mean at the time I remember they said, "Do you want to press charges?" and I was just sort of in shock, and I didn't. But maybe knowing what I now-- know now maybe I should have, but I, I didn't even think of it.

EL: How did you, how did you move past that experience?

CDH: Um, I don't know, I still think about it sometimes. I can remember the man's face, and how he looked at my face and he just hated me. I can see it very clearly. He just saw my face, and he just hated me right away. Which is crazy! I, I will say he actually was black, and I understand that there is sometimes animosity between those two communities, and I know why that's there because he's obviously more oppressed than I am, so I just sometimes think of that.

EL: And given that, that you had this experience some time ago, when all of this news over the past year started t- to be talked about, that hate directed at AAPI folks, especially directed at women, and in many cases elderly women,

CDH: Yeah,

EL: How did you react to that?

CDH: Well it made me feel very sad, it made me feel vulnerable, especially for like my mom, my aunts, my grandma, it made me worried a l-, really worried for them. But so we did, my mom and I are working on an initiative, we're raising funds for Advancing Justice Chicago. We have a, a five concert series that we're performing at church, and all the money we raise will go to fight anti-Asian racism. That's the best we can do.

EL: Have either one of you changed your, your behavior, your sort of daily behavior to protect yourselves? Do you feel you can protect yourselves?

CDH: I don't think we have, I keep telling all my relatives, "You have to be careful!" but, but they're like, "No we're strong we're fine!" Though I will say one of my best friends who is Korean, drives with a block over the side, so that no one can tell she's Asian when she's driving. Teresa does.

BH: Oh really?

CDH: 'Cause she's, she lives in the suburbs and she's afraid.

EL: Thank you for sharing that experience. So, I want to switch back to Sunnie 00:42:00briefly, are there any particular people, places, or events that hold special meaning for you from your childhood?

BH: Hmm, well I'm sure there are, as I said the Co-Op Investors, that Christmas party, and then every year the Resettler's committee had a picnic, and I remember going to that one. Co-Op Investors would also do a, we did, like a r- not a retreat we'd like, we went up to a camp somewhere for a weekend, stayed three nights at some cabin in Northern Michigan, or something, or Wisconsin. That was super fun. The church's, it used to be called a Bazaar, now it's called Aki-Matsuri for the last 30 years, and that's always a great event. Can I think 00:43:00of anything else? I can't.

EL: Can you describe for me some of the activities at the Resettler's picnics?

BH: I'm afraid I can't, I was young. They w- I'm sure they had relay races and games and stuff like that. Tha- our church picnic is also a lot of fun. We have games, but we also have like a potluck I should say that the potlucks of, like Mother's Day potluck, or just any of the potlucks that we have at our church, the food is fantastic! So it's a lot about the food and it's great!

EL: And then, are there still elements of Japanese food present at those events?

CDH: Oh yeah! It's all Japanese food.

BH: Oh! Yeah a lot. It's mostly, it's mostly Japanese food.

CDH: It's the best home cooked Japanese food!

BH: Yes, it's y-you know, age-sushi, inari-sushi, and maki-sushi, and--

CDH: --teriyaki,

BH: --teriyaki,

CDH: --chashu,

BH: --yeah! (laughs)

EL: I'm, I'm curious about language, especially because you mentioned Chelsea 00:44:00that you studied Japanese, and your, your sister studied Japanese. Barbara, did you grow up knowing Japanese at all?

BH: I did not! (laughs) And this is crazy, because I did visit my other daughter in Japan when she was living there, and everybody would come up to talk to me and I would give them this blank look, and then my daughter would start talking in very fluent Japanese. And that was kind of off-putting I think for the people there. I-- this is one of those things like, "Oh I wish I hadn't quit piano when I was young" --that people say. I mean I didn't quit piano, I still play piano. But all the other kids had to go to Japanese school, and we did not. And I was really happy that we didn't have to go, 'cause they all hated it, but of course now I wish I could speak Japanese. I really do.

EL: Do you know why your parents didn't make you go?

BH: My parents, I like to think that my parents were pretty modern, sort of, not 00:45:00separate from the Japanese American community, but willing to send me to private school, and look at other outside opportunities for us--

CDH: --I think Grandma also really wanted to assimilate, I feel like they were purposely not giving you a Japanese cultural childhood, you and my aunts. Because they really felt-- I feel like for my grandma after the experience of the internment camps, she really wanted you guys to be Americanized.

BH: And ambitious yeah.

CDH: Yes, and really be true American girls, with American names and like leave that behind you know?

BH: Yeah, I think you're right.

EL: How did, how does that make you feel about some of the elements of Japanese culture that have been lost, that weren't transmitted from your grandparents generation to your mother, and thus couldn't be transmitted from your mother to you?

CDH: Yeah, I, I do think it's a shame and I think all my cousins feel that way. We, we wish, I mean hindsight is 20-20, but we wish there had been more of a 00:46:00passing of it along, because neither of my aunts ha- have it either and all of their kids are interested in their cultural heritage too. So it's, it's too bad that that's not what happened.

EL: Do you feel that by studying Japanese yourself in college and then studying abroad in Japan you were able to reclaim some of that heritage?

CDH: Oh definitely, and I know my cousin also studied Japan-- Japanese in school as well. We were all kind of wanting to get back that piece of our identity that we didn't have as much, and it, it's not anyone's fault! (laughs)

BH: (laughs)

CDH: But it was important to us, so yes, mos- we all studied Japanese and we all went abroad and lived in Japan, and yeah it was very-- it was, it made me feel proud to reclaim that.

BH: I think, like Jane Kaihatsu too, like a l- there were people even my age,

CDH: She's a sansei.

BH: --who felt, they wanted to find out more about that piece of themselves of their identity and did go explore in Japan.

CDH: Mhmm, definitely.

EL: And regarding incarceration, have any members of your family participated in 00:47:00pilgrimages back to Tule Lake?

CDH: No, I think we would be interested, but that's the piece of th-- my grandma wants to not look at it, is I don't think she would ever want to go back there. And she wouldn't ever want to discuss it. And in fact most of the Nisei I know do not want to talk about it, the only Nisei I, I knew who would let us like interview her was very young at the time, she was only like 10 when she was incarcerated, so she didn't have the same emotional experience that older people did. But so, for my grandma s- I don't think she'd ever be interested in retracing that.

BH: And she's 100 now, so clearly her parents and all the Issei are gone.

CDH: Yeah, it's too bad 'cause I think the rest of us would be interested.

EL: If you could talk to your grandmother about her time in camp or if you could speak to your mother about time in camp, what would you most want to ask her?

BH: Hmm, (laughs)

CDH: I mean, I would like to know her, how she felt emotionally and like everything! I'd want to know what her daily life was like, and I'd want to know everything about the experience. Remember we did find that, she had been like the publisher of the newsletter or something we found these old papers and, yeah--

BH: Right, no I told her about that, and I want to bring them and have them go into the historical--

CDH: But my feeling is that she is just not interested in discussing that at all.

BH: There's, yeah. I- even when we found those sketches, I believe what I was doing was trying to do oral histories from my parents on camera. So I was interviewing my dad, 'cause my mom didn't want to do it and I found those sketches, I think I was showing them to my dad and my mom, or-- I was asking my dad about questions, and my mom brought out these sketches. She would never have done it if we had asked her directly, but it was because I was interviewing my dad that all of a sudden these little sketches suddenly appeared. But then, she 00:49:00didn't really want to talk about them after that.

CDH: Actually, I tal- do you remember this crazy story? So, my husband is Italian-American and I'm Slovenian and Japanese, so when we had our, we had like a bridal shower at church and we had all different kinds of food and I was like, "Oh I, I thought it'd be fun, I put up the three flags for Slovenia, Italy, and Japan, and one of the nisei woman came up to me and said "Chelsea, I'm worried we're going to get in trouble because you put up the Rising Sun, should we take that down?" She's like, "What if the police come?" And I was like, "Well, I, I promise you we will be okay but if you really feel uncomfortable, I could take it down?" and she was like, "No, no I just want to make sure that you're careful." But she was like, afraid!

EL: And what year was that in?

CDH: 2007? Like this was fairly recent, but she was nervous cuz I put up the Japanese flag.

BH: Wow.

EL: Chelsea, I would like to ask you as a fellow mixed-raced Japanese American,

BH: --it's almost 4:15 so--

CDH: Okay.

EL: --and given that you grew up very much connected to the Japanese American community here, were you ever made to feel less than because you were half?

CDH: Definitely not by the community here in Chicago, and definitely not my parents or grandparents, friends, definitely not. But I will say in college I sometimes felt I didn't really belong in one group or the other just from being mixed race. So I, I felt that more when I stepped out of my own community that I'd been raised in.

EL: And did you know many other mixed-race Japanese Americans growing up?

CDH: Aside from my own family I don't think I did. My cousins are, and--

BH: That's it, yeah.

CDH: --no, I think I really-- and in fact I think it was much a rarer to be mixed Japanese when I was little, now I see many-- like my sons, many of their friends are half-Asian, but when I was little it was much rarer to be half-Asian.

EL: And I think we'll pause there so that you can take off.

--

EL: So we were talking about pilgrimage and maybe interest in your generation and your children's generation but out of respect for your mother's feelings about it, you all choose not to participate in pilgrimage. We talked a little bit about Chelsea's mixed-race experience, and I'm wondering, you mentioned trying to do oral history, and, and how your mother engaged a little bit only because you were talking to your father. Was your father willing to talk about camp at all, or was it just his military experience?

BH: Yeah, I think he would have been much more willing to talk about it, I just don't even remember if I asked him much. But, yeah my dad was, is more open-- Was.

EL: And did you, did you have other relatives or family friends who did talk openly about camp?

BH: I don't think so. I think, I would think a universal Sansei experience would be that the Issei and the Nisei did not talk about camp. There's that Japanese um, Japanese virtue gaman. You don't monku-monku about, you don't complain, you just get on, so--

EL: So how did you go about educating yourself about this very important piece of your family's history?

BH: I think, I didn't go about educating myself, I think pieces of it just would come out here and there like, "What camp were you at?" "We were at Tule Lake." 00:53:00"Oh, how old were you?" That, but over the years. Just, and you put it together, that piece of the puzzle with what you read of elsewhere or find out about from films, or other media, and it just fits in and becomes part of that picture.

EL: Did you feel a sense of loss in terms of cultural heritage, or did it ever occur to you that, that you hadn't received cultural knowledge from your parents?

BH: No, as I say because-- we're so Western, my family was so Western compared to many of the, most of my other Sansei friends, that I felt unique or proud of 00:54:00that. So no, I didn't feel that until now. I wish I could speak Japanese, or knew how to cook Japanese food better--

EL: So how did it feel when your children did feel a sense of loss or something missing and then took steps to acquire that for themselves?

BH: I don't think it was expressed as a sense of loss, I think it's more of a sense of curiosity, wanting to know about this. So when she took Japanese in college I said, "Oh, that's great, that sounds like fun!" And the same thing for m-- and then she did her junior year abroad in Japan, in Osaka. And then my youngest daughter actually got a fellowship to teach at a college in Ja- Japan, to teach English at a college in Japan. So she was there for three years, and got really fluent in Japanese culture and Ja- and Japanese language.

EL: And other than the awkwardness of people expecting you to speak Japanese when you were in Japan, what was the experience like for you, going to visit your, your children in Japan?

BH: Well it, that was the last two weeks of a three month around the Pacific thing. My partner and I backpacked, we went to Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and then we went to Japan. So, he was tired, and wanted to get home, and I thought it was just-- the food was fantastic, just delicious food which is a crucial part of any culture for me. And so the food was great, but he found the culture so foreign. Like of all the places that we had visited, this was the most foreign. We've been all over the world in many, 00:56:00many different cultures but the juxtaposition of the ancient and the modern and I mean technologically, way futuristic modern, just was so jarring to him. And the fact that when we approached anybody to talk to them people were very, and would run away. They just, they were very wary of us and t- of tourists and didn't want to talk. And he found that pretty off-putting. (laughs)

EL: Was that in more rural areas, or also in cities?

BH: No, no no no. That was in Tokyo and Osaka. Everywhere we went, we'd ask a question, people'd just, in English, I would say like, "Do you speak English?" and they'd all (no gesture). And this was in 2000 so, I understand-- well I could be wrong, I think somebody told me that now things are, you see English signs and things like that. But then you didn't. So when we're trying to get 00:57:00around the subway, and every name of every stop was in Japanese letters, and we'd just like, they all look the same! It's very hard. Like which stop did we want? Is it that one? That one? That one? So, yeah. So he, he was not very fond, he didn't like it very much. I would of course love to go back. We did have a couple of wonderful experiences at a ryokan, a minshuku, and that was pretty amazing 'cause it was in the winter, so nobody was there. We were the only guests. They have the outdoor Japanese, the min-, what is it, the hot tub out there? And the, in the minshuku, the woman, her neighbor had caught a fish. She said, "Oh, my neighbor caught a fish, I will, do you like, I will serve it to you as sashimi." She brought in this huge platter of sashimi. I'm a vegetarian, my daughter does not care for sashimi, so we just sort of looked at, at my partner, Randy, and said "You gotta do us proud." So he ate the whole thing of 00:58:00sashimi, the entire big tuna that was on this platter!

EL: He took one for the team.

BH: He did. I mean he loves sashimi, but there was enough for five people. (laughs)

EL: So I think, I would like to know, what you think I should be asking about the Sansei experience in Chicago?

BH: Um, what should you be asking about it? It's pretty great I think. I think there was a lot of opportunities in the, amongst the different groups and activities. So the MBT I think had the Boy Scouts, and the Drum and Bugle Corps, and then there was the Inter-church volleyball league. And, I, I feel like, and 00:59:00the, and Senn High School I think a lot of Japanese Americans were at Senn High School. There was also a group who were in Hyde Park, then they moved up to the North side too. But then, a lot of people started moving out to the suburbs, as I got, by the time they were getting out of, getting into college. I think a lot of families were moving out. But for a while there, it was pretty, I think it was a pretty nice, connected community. As I said earlier, you can meet somebody and they'd say, you'd say your name, they'd say, "Oh, Hikawa!" or whatever their name might be. They'd know somebody, or they knew of you or-- So there was a lot of connection, there were the three grocery store-- the three stores on the Belmont-Clark intersection, and so we used to always go to York Foods, or Toguri's, or-- Star Market, yes, Star Market I believe the owner went to our 01:00:00church even. So, and those communities were big, as I said we had a huge Sunday School, there must have been 300, 500 members? Not like now, where we have 50, maybe? Because, our Nisei, we used to have a Nisei congregation, they're all gone. Now we have the Nisei, and very few of them left. My mom is a hundred, but she lives with my sister, wherever my sister goes. So, she's not part of that community anymore, most of 'em, a lot of 'em have left, and a lot of them have died. So that's pretty sad. And I guess I think, you grew up on the East Coast, but you didn't know a Japanese American community, my guess is.

EL: No, I didn't.

BH: But even if you had, I wonder if there were one. Even for my daughter's age, for the Yonsei. Here, this far removed from the West Coast. West Coast, I don't, 01:01:00there's, it's certainly not as much solidarity to that group as there was when I was growing up, when it was definitely-- a lot of my, the people I know like at my church, other Sansei, their friends are all other Sansei. They have lots of Sansei friends, so-- And certainly, as I said, my parent's group of friends was very connected. And I think that's really nice to have had that. So I feel sorry for other communities that weren't as rich perhaps as the one in Chicago. My guess is if you lived out in a smaller town or some other state it wasn't that. So I'm, I'm grateful for that.

EL: Do you think there's anything that the Japanese American community in 01:02:00Chicago now could or should be doing that would help strengthen the sense of community or connectedness between us?

BH: No, I'm afraid I feel like it's-- not disintegrated, but it's been stretched pretty thin maybe. I- more people moving out to more suburbs. A lot of the Sansei I know, their kids don't live here, they've all moved away. That's just the way of the world we're a much more mobile society that way people move away they don't stay as my parents' generation did and raising their families in one place. So I don't, I, I wouldn't, I can't think of anything. I know that coming here to the JASC, I come for taiko drumming lessons here, and I'm sort of impressed that the other people in the group, some of whom are also Sansei, do speak some Japanese. And the offerings here are a lot for Japanese people who 01:03:00have, there's, there is that community here because-- mostly in the north suburbs a lot of corporations I think brought Japanese executives in, people from Japan. So there's a "Japanese-Japanese '' community that exists of which I know absolutely nothing, I'm not in touch with them. But I do have a friend from Berlin who is from Japan, so when she comes-- her husband is from Chicago, so when she comes, they come to Chicago, she plays in a koto group out in Arlington Heights or someplace and is-- And since she speaks Japanese, she's in touch with that group but as a Japanese American, I'm not. Oops, I think I touched my mic. So I, I wish I could a- think of something, but I, I don't know.

EL: And for your grandchildren, Chelsea mentioned that her spouse is not 01:04:00Japanese American, so that would make your grandchildren one quarter Japanese American.

BH: She calls them "quapa". Quapa, like half is hapa, and then quapa. (laughs)

EL: What do you do as a grandparent to, to help them understand that piece of their diverse heritage and--

BH: Well, I don't think I do anything particular. But I do know that for example, at my younger grandson's nursery school last year, Chelsea offered to do a unit on Japan with the four-year-olds, or three-- no they were three-year-olds. And she said, "Do you want to help?" So I went, and we read a Japanese fairytale, and she'd created an art project with some watercolor on paper or something like that, making a, a fish kite or some Japanese-y kind of 01:05:00thing. So, I did that, I don't know how connected they feel to it, but it's, it's a w-, it's something that keeps it alive I think.

EL: Is there anything, now that she's not in the room, that you would like to ask Chelsea that you've never really felt you could or never had the opportunity to?

BH: No not really, I pretty much would ask her whatever I want to if I feel like it! (laughs)

EL: And, as we wrap up here I'm, I would love to know what motivated you to participate in the oral history project?

BH: A couple of things. There was an exhibit not too long ago, at, I can't remember the name of the gallery, but over on Fullerton and Halsted. And I went to that and they-- it was about the internment. And they showed some films, 01:06:00several films. And then I saw some people I knew. And often I'll see films, or see exhibits even say, "This soldier from the 442nd" and it'd be like, "Oh it's Sats Tanakatsubo" or some family I know, and I always feel like, "Well, why isn't my family up there?" And then I thought, "Well, if I don't do it nobody's going to do it." So when I saw the thing that said, "Do you want to do an oral history project?" I thought, oh, I should do one. I'm about 10 years too late, but I should do it, so, that's why I'm doing it. (laughs)

EL: It's never too late! And I'm very grateful for your participation. I think to close things out here, I'll ask you what, what would you like future generations to know about you and your family?

BH: Oh, hmm I just thought of something I wanted to say, and then let me think about that question.

EL: Okay.

BH: Which is, I remember that my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, did go 01:07:00back to Japan for a visit a couple of times. And they said, the thing they said was, everybody knew they were American-- by their shoes. It was the funniest thing, because obviously they were J-Japanese, they spoke J-Japanese, she said, but people would look at their shoes, and know that they weren't Japanese. Why? Because our shoes were better? I'm not, I don't know the answer to that. --Okay so now your question about is there anything I'd like--

EL: What would you most like future generations to know about you or your family?

BH: Oh, hmm. About me and my family.

EL: What would you like your legacy to be?

BH: Oh I don't know, that we, that we were part of the human race and tried to do our best to, to promote justice, and make the world better for some people? I guess?

EL: I think that's a lovely sentiment. I think we'll end there so thank you very much.

BH: Thank you. (smiles)