Kawamoto, Amy (3/2/2018)

Anna Takada: This is an interview with Amy Kawamoto as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on March 2, 2018 at 1:30 PM at the Japanese American Service Committee 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago. Amy Kawamoto is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee.

AT: To start, can you just state your full name?

Amy Kawamoto: My name is Amy Emiko Kawamoto.

AT: And can you tell me about where and when you were born?

AK: I was born August 26, 1938 in Seattle, Washington.

AT: And can you tell me about any memories you might have of Seattle?

AK: Seattle -- I don't have memories of. But I have one sister and one brother - older sister and older brother. My parents - my father was born in Kagoshima, Japan, and my mother was born in Hiroshima, Japan.

AT: And do you know when they came to the US?

AK: My father came on a ship. He was... I don't know exactly what he was doing on the ship, but he was working, and he jumped ship in Seattle at the age of, I 00:02:00think, 18, he said. Knew no one... He had no relatives or anybody there, so he says he swam to shore, and he only had dried fish, and he had no money. Oh, he might have had a few from his work on the ship, but other than that, he was all alone and somehow survived. And this was in 1918, I think. 'Cause I have a manifest of that ship with his name on it. And on the side of the sheet that his 00:03:00name was on, it said... Well, it didn't say "jump ship," but he was no longer on the ship.

AT: And how about your mother?

AK: My mother was a citizen - she was born in Seattle. But she lost her citizenship when she married my father.

AT: Do you know what year they married?

AK: They were married - Great Depression, 1929. Right in the heart of the Depression. They were in Seattle until the relocation.

AT: And do you know anything about how they met or how they got together?

AT: Actually, they were what they call baishakunin, which means an intermediary -- I think my grandmother or somebody introduced them with the intention of having them get married eventually, but --

AT: And how did they make a living in Seattle?

AK: My father was a manager of a hotel - they leased the hotel. And my mother did all the changing of beds -- it was like a rooming house. Hundred beds.

AT: Do you happen to know what it was called?

AK: One of the hotels - the one I was born in - was called Fairview Hotel. And then there's one that I think my sister was born - I've forgotten the name - it is still standing. The building itself is still standing. But that's what they did. For a living. They always either leased the hotel or eventually, they owned a hotel here -- not a hotel, apartment building, here in Chicago. But they -- the time before, it was all leased. You couldn't own you know - 'cause he was not a citizen at that time.

AT: Do you know or have any more details about your - either your parents or 00:06:00your family's life before the war?

AK: Well, before the war, I could only guess from photos I've seen. But my mother said that when they first got married, and before the Depression actually hit, she says it was the best time because they had money, and they had a new car, but that all went downhill during the Depression. They lost everything, and I think they went to live with my grandmother in Vashon Island, which is off of Seattle. And it was a hard time. They lost their - my oldest brother who was four years old at the time, died from blood poisoning. He -- I guess he had 00:07:00chicken pox, and scratched it and became infected and - so that was their oldest, first-born, so it was very devastating for them. And my sister was born and my brother and then I was the last one. Although my mother told me, and this was right before she died, that there was a child after me, but because they were entering camp, that the doctor said that probably it's better you aborted it so... And I think she was hemorrhaging or she was bleeding, so... So, I was very upset about that because I always wanted a younger brother or younger 00:08:00sister, you know.

AT: And when did you find that out, when did she pass?

AK: She passed away in 2003. Yeah... I think for most of them - my parents' age - they were very ashamed of being in camp. To them, it was like being in jail. And I know my uncle, he refuses to even talk about it. When he was interviewed, he didn't say a word. Still upset and ashamed.

AT: And - your parents, do you know what years they were born? So how old they 00:09:00would have been?

AK: My father was born in 1899. He died at age of 95. And my mother was born in 1909, and she lived to be 94. From the photos that I have... I have a photo of when my oldest brother was one years old, and they had a big party at a Chinese restaurant, and they're all dressed up. So I think that was in 19- let's see... he was born in 30 - it was probably 1931. One year old.

AT: So you mentioned that your first memories are of the evacuation process?

AK: Right, Puyallup Assembly Center.

AT: Before talking about your actual memories, can you just tell me a little bit about what happened to your family at the onset of the war?

AK: You know, my parents never really talked about it, so, you know, I wish I had asked them, but we never discussed that part of -- 'cause I don't really remember how we got to Puyallup. And even when we went to Minidoka, everybody says, "Yeah, we were on a train." But I don't remember that. So I regret not 00:11:00asking them questions, but I don't think they even wanted to talk about it anyway. For them, it's... an embarrassment, you know. 'Cause they felt they were in a jail, you know. But that was sad because they were just - went through a Depression and recovered, and then camp came, and lost everything again, so it was quite devastating. And when I think about my mother, she was only in her 30s with three small children. And I think the hard thing was that they didn't know when they were gonna be out -- at that time. When we look back it wasn't that 00:12:00long of a time, maybe two and a half years, three years. But at that time, they didn't know when.

AT: So your family was first sent to [says at the same time] Puyallup Assembly Center --

AK: [says at the same time] Puyallup Assembly Center, uh huh. Camp Harmony, I think they called it. And then we went by train to Minidoka, Idaho, just outside of Boise, Idaho. And... I don't remember the dust storms that people say we had and the cold and - I guess when you're young you just don't feel those things.

AT: Can you tell me about the memories that you did have?

AK: In camp? Well, when looking back, you know, they were very organized. I'm 00:13:00just amazed at the people who were the leaders in each block, how they organized everything. They had a vegetable garden, we had church services, there were also activities of baseball. I remember my father playing baseball. And then I was in a dance group, Japanese dance group. And also, we had like a amateur hour, or people would perform. And I would sing Japanese songs.

AT: How old do you think you were at that time that you were participating in those activities?

AK: Well, it had to be between three and six. Probably about five or six years old. But like I said, it was a good time for me and all of our friends of that age. But I know it wasn't pleasant for my parents.

AT: Before we started recording, you mentioned memories of even the evacuation process when you were probably very young, I think three years old?

AK: Three.

AT: Can you tell me about those memories?

AK: I just remember getting shots. And I don't remember the accommodations in 00:15:00Puyallup. I know it was a fairgrounds, and I think it still is. But... like some people talk about being in horse stables and things like that, and I don't recall that at all. I don't know what we did in Camp Harmony. The only thing I do remember is getting the shots the first time. But other than that, I really don't remember.

AT: And what about in Minidoka? Did your parents take up work? What were your siblings up to, if you recall?

AK: My sister, I remember, listened to radio, all these... like I remember Helen 00:16:00Trent. And then my brother and I also, we listened to all the Hopalong Cassidy, and -- it was all radio. There was no television. Yeah, and we were outdoors most of the time. Played all kinds of games. But... Even coming to Chicago, growing up, we were very independent, we went wherever, you know, without my parents knowing where we are at, at that time, we were free to go and take the streetcar, and... And coming to Chicago, I think was a good thing because -- I 00:17:00think there was still a lot of prejudice on the West Coast, but Chicago was - my girlfriend and I talk about this all the time that it was a good place to come to - there was very little, very little prejudice.

AT: Before we get into your life in Chicago, did your parents, did they work in camp at all?

AK: Yes, my father was a timekeeper, and I remember being interviewed for this book, and she says, "What is a timekeeper?" And I said, "Well, I think he kept tabs on all the other workers -- put the time down." That's the only thing I 00:18:00could think of.

AT: And your mother, did she work at all?

AK: No. I don't remember her... 'Cause I think there were only a limited amount of jobs, you know. My grandmother also was in camp, also, but she wasn't with us in the same block. She was a nurse, the hospital.

AT: Would you happen to remember your block number?

AK: 36. I'll remember that for the rest of my life, yeah. 36-7C. 36 is the block, 7 is the barrack, and C is the number on the barrack. A, B, C, D, I think.

AT: Another thing that we had talked about before recording was these photographs that you had found of your families barrack. Can you tell me just a little bit more about those photographs and what your father did?

AK: I guess, some of the other people who were in our block decided that they would copy my father by ordering wallpaper, so they started decorating their - I never know what to call it [chuckles], it's not exactly an apartment, but it was 00:20:00a room, and my father and mother had wallpapered the whole thing. I guess he got scraps from... from all the working areas and put up plywood [gestures], he did that first, and then they wallpapered it. The floor didn't change, it was still rough and wooden... dusty, and he made a closet, so he could store the wood for the potbelly stove. And he... he made the bed frame, so we didn't have a cot, we had an actual bed, and I don't know what the mattress was made of, but -- and he 00:21:00made a desk, a commode, and a sink. So we had that in our room, so we didn't have to go out. 'Course there was no shower, so we had to go to the community bathroom, but I noted that to myself, I said, "My God, that's probably why we didn't have to go to the community bathroom that often because we have that commode in our room." My mother made the curtains, the bedspread. They decorated it to make it look like a normal house or apartment. See I never appreciated that, but after I went to the pilgrimage -- gosh, that's very nice that my 00:22:00parents did that, you know.

AT: So as a child, did you ever -- did you not really notice that your situation was --?

AK: [makes noise affirming no] Better than the next door's? No, I never-never thought about it, uh huh. But... trying to think. I still remember the coyotes yowling - at night, howling. And one of my friends who was in Minidoka, she recalled that, too, and I just... That's one of my memories. I know there was a 00:23:00canal where people used to go swimming, but it was very murky and muddy. And when I went back at the pilgrimage, it was just blue, it was just - it was just beautiful. And there was a lot of vegetation around, and I don't recall that ever, yeah, when we were living there. It was very desolate.

AT: Were you in school when you were in camp?

AK: I went to kindergarten and [it] was very brief because I was six when I left, so... When I came to Chicago, I remember kindergarten, they put me in kindergarten, and then I guess they said maybe I'm a little too old, so I went 00:24:00to first grade. Which would've been six.

AT: And what about your siblings? What exactly is the age difference?

AK: My sister was five years older than me and my brother was three years older. My brother, like I told you, my brother doesn't recall too much about camp. And my sister passed away in 2000, so, she would have remembered more.

AT: And, just briefly going back to your family's barrack, can you describe the photographs that were taken? And just tell me a little more about...

AT: All the photographs that were taken by the government was inside. Nothing was taken outside, so... But, there were, I think there was like, two, I don't know if there was two, four... I think... Can't recall how many rooms now, in a barrack. I think one, two, three four, five, at least six. I don't know if there was eight. But I remember the next door family at the end. They were all adults, there were no kids. And then we knew them from Seattle, my parents knew them 00:26:00from Seattle. In fact, there were quite a few families that we knew from Seattle that went to the same block as we were. So, in fact, a couple of them, I still keep in contact with. Children, 'cause we're the same age.

AT: And just to have on the record, what were the photographs, these government photographs that you found?

AK: Actually, they were ordered. I - They gave my mother one photograph that they took, and we had that ever since we left camp, and I... The reason how I found out that there were other photographs was my niece went to the 00:27:00Smithsonian, and she looked at the picture, and she recalled a picture similar to that and said, she called me and says, "Auntie, your picture is in the Smithsonian." And so then I discovered that there were other photos, it's when she described it to me it was not the one that I had. So I wrote to the National Archives, and I was able to get a number from the back of the picture I did have and give them a description and the - I guess some kind of coding number. So they sent me the negatives of about seven of them, and they asked if I wanted to order them. I could order [gestures] regular 8x10, and so they sent me seven of 00:28:00them, very good quality, black and white pictures. And from then, I've shown 'em to people, and they said, no, that's not their camp. So, I guess I was lucky that we, you know, we did live in a camp that wasn't - in a barrack that was fixed up. And I asked my mother, "Where did you get the wallpaper?" And she says she ordered it from Sears catalogue. I says, "Well, God, here you are in camp, and you were able to do all this?" 'Cause, you know, there was no credit cards or anything like that. So I don't know how she did it, but we got the wallpaper. 00:29:00So all the others started to do that, too. I don't know how many completed it, but... And I-I'm sure that the pictures were used for propaganda because... I think a lot of people said, "Well, if they live like that, you know, they're living better than people who are on the outside." So [laughs].

AT: Do you recall what year that was, that you found those photos?

AK: No, I ordered them. That was - oh, I ordered them... I'm trying to think, 'cause I went to Washington D.C. that year, and then I did see the photo at the Smithsonian because it was in conjunction with the camp. They had an exhibit 00:30:00about camp. I'm... I'm trying to think, it had to be 19- hm... 95? Around there? 'Cause they had an exhibit at the Smithsonian on camp.

AT: Would that have been "A More Perfect Union"? Does that sound familiar? The exhibition?

AK: No.

AT: Different one?

AK: Yeah... I'm not sure. I have to look it up. I'm sorry I didn't take photos, you know, of all that.

AT: That's fine, we can --

AK: But the -- when we went on the pilgrimage, we were able to see a authentic 00:31:00barrack. Somebody had preserved a barrack at a farm exhibit. And so there is a-a genuine, authentic barrack in that Minidoka area.

AT: When you got that -- when you spoke to your niece who saw the photograph, what was your reaction? Or how did that feel learning about --

AK: Oh, that, yes, I says, "Well, there must be other photographs." So I asked my mother, and she says, "Yes, there were others that were taken." And I says, "Why isn't my brother and sister in the pictures?" And she says, "Oh, they were in school." I was the only one at home, so.

AT: So you were in the photographs?

AK: Oh yes, yes.

AT: With your parents?

AK: Uh huh. And, in fact... this girl called me, after I was at the pilgrimage, 00:32:00and she says she wanted to interview me because I was the girl in that photograph. She says she wanted to interview me because of that photo that was in the Smithsonian. And she's written a book about Minidoka, I thought it might be here [points to book cases], but... I'm trying to think... But I will bring those photos down to show you.

AK: That would be great, I'd love to see them. So you mentioned that your family 00:33:00was probably in camp for about two and a half or three years?

AK: Mhm. Two and a half, probably, from April '42, April '42, and then, we were one of the early ones to get out, which was in December of 1944. Although my father came out here first to Chicago, 'cause he... I don't know, there was a relative who was here already, and so they said to come out, and so he looked around to see if there was a building that he could purchase or lease before we were called out. So he came out in August of '44, and then we came out in December of '44 by Pullman train. I remember that train ride [laughs]. It was 00:34:00fun -- we were able to sleep on the car, in a bed.

AT: That must have been a -- quite a long -- that must have been a long journey.

AK: Long journey.

AT: And so your father had come in '44 in August to --

AK: And then he did find a place. It was on 33rd and Cottage Grove. And he leased -- it was a big hotel. In fact, somebody said, or -- somebody said that the White Sox used to stay there or something. This is way back. But... that was a nice hotel because, you know, you had all your friends right in the same 00:35:00building. So, it was, I think, three stories. Of course, everything was big because, you know, you're so little, but it was... Yeah, I still have friends who-who stayed at our hotel. And...

AT: And so you were living in that building as well when you came to Chicago?

AK: Yes, we were living there, and let's see -- we moved from there, I think my father lost his lease, and they were going to demolish the building, so we moved from there to 46th and Lake Park on the South Side. And I was there until I got 00:36:00married in 1965, so.

AT: And at that location, that's where you were living?

AK: Yes, I was living there until I got married.

AT: What do you remember of first arriving to Chicago? Do you remember?

AK: Oh, I remember, oh yes. 'Cause my father was supposed to meet us, and he didn't -- he was nowhere to be found, and we're waiting and waiting and it was snowing, and we were all bundled up because we never felt such cold. Now, it's funny because in Idaho it was probably colder, but I didn't feel that. My aunt and uncle's first apartment -- they already had a building and so my first taste 00:37:00of ice cream 7-Up. That was a real treat.

AT: You said that was near your aunt and uncle's place?

AK: Aunt and uncle, they lived on - right near the Aragon Ballroom on Lawrence. That was their first apartment. But we're on the South Side. So I know in the Japanese communities you're either a North sider or a South sider. Which was nice -- what was nice is we were all congregated in a certain area on the South side, 43rd and-43rd St and Lake Park, Greenwood, Ellis. All of those blocks were 00:38:00all Japanese. There was Japanese grocery store on 43rd street.

AT: Do you happen to remember what that was called, the grocery store?

AK: Uh huh, OK Grocery. The Okamotos ran that store.

AT: And --

AK: And we all went to either Oakenwald Grammar School or Shakespeare. Those were the two schools. And most of us went to Hyde Park High School.

AT: And is that where you and your siblings went?

AK: Mhm, yes.

AT: So which was the first school -- were you at Shakespeare or Oaken--

AK: Oakenwald, Oakenwald, which was a wonderful experience, yeah. All the Oakenwald people, we all talk about it and how great it was.

AT: And so what grade was that that you would have been entering?

AK: Well, like I said, I was in kindergarten for a short while, and then they put me in first grade. And the funny thing is, my brother told me that we all spoke Japanese. And so when we first went to school, you're learning the pledge of allegiance and all of that -- that was all new, you know. And I don't know, we somehow quickly learned English. We were all able to adapt without having any kind of lessons.

AT: So when you were in camp, that means that you were speaking Japanese only?

AK: Mhm. I don't remember speaking Japanese, but that's what my brother said. Because even when we came to Chicago, she spoke to us in Japanese, and of 00:40:00course, I would answer in English. My father always had a dictionary. He always wanted to learn words, so he was able to speak English. I think my mother because she was more with her own Japanese friends that she -- although she spoke and understood, you know, English. She-she never took any English lessons or anything.

AT: And how would you describe your experience at Oakenwald?

AK: Wonderful, just -- teachers were just great. They were all -- most of them were Irish Catholic. They were not married, and we remember -- in fact, when I 00:41:00went to this not the Alphawood, but the more recent event at the Historic-History Museum, met a friend there who went to Oakenwald, and he just raved about the teachers, and I says, "Yeah, we all know that." But he says he called them up and took them out to dinner when he got older, and I says, "Wow, you must have had a good experience." He says, "Wonderful." And everybody who did go to Oakenwald really appreciated the teachers and the school was just wonderful.

AT: And that-that neighborhood at the time, you mentioned there were a number of 00:42:00Japanese-American families that had resettled there --

AK: It was changing then, it was -- 'cause our school, you can see, like when my sister went to Hyde Park, it was all white in her class. In my brother's class, there was a sprinkling of blacks. In my class, it was like, quite a few blacks. So the neighborhood was changing at that time. But we had no problems, we all seemed to get along in Hyde Park.

AT: Do you remember, as a child, ever thinking about your identity or...?

AK: No, we weren't deep thinkers, [laughs] no. The fact that we didn't come across any real prejudice, I look back, I says, this is amazing. Because this is right after the war, and you know, even the teachers were apprehensive about, you know, teaching these Japanese from, you know -- they've never met us. But I remember talking to my eighth grade teacher, and she says, "That was the best time," she says, "When the Japanese kids came to our district," she says. "Because they were so well-behaved and..." So it was a good time. I don't know 00:44:00about the ones who went back to California. I don't know their experience, just was curious about that. My father came from a very warm climate-environment in Japan, so I was amazed at why he would pick someplace like Chicago. To settle.

AT: Did you ever have a chance to ask him about it or have a conversation?

AK: Well, when -- because I went back to Kagoshima, and I just loved it. And I'm - says, "Why did you leave?" Of course, he was very independent at 18, and I 00:45:00asked him why he wanted to come to America, and he said to learn English. And I thought, "That was a curious answer." And it wasn't until I went to Kagoshima, how progressive they were during that era, which was the end of the Meiji Era where they were very progressive in their thinking. They wanted to -- in fact, they sent a few children to study in England! And he says, yeah, he wanted to learn English. So, I says, "Well, were you gonna go back?" You know, and he says, well, it wouldn't have been good for him 'cause there really isn't 00:46:00anything that he could've - except for farming, during that era, during that time. So... let's see. You wanted to know...?

AT: So, in Chicago, was your family religious at all or did they take part in --

AK: Well, my father and mother, they belonged to the Buddhist Church, and I went to Sunday school at the now Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and I still attend that church - or that temple. But it wasn't until I got older that I realized that that's actually what I believe. Before it was just a lot of fun, like everything 00:47:00else, it was time to meet your friends and socialize. But you didn't think too much about the religion.

AT: And can you tell me about -- so at that time, it must have been when the temple was still on the South Side.

AK: Mhm.

AT: Can you tell me about -- maybe describe where that was in your memories of it?

AK: That was on -- I think it was on 57th and Dorchester. Kind of -- I can't say for sure that's the address, but Reverend Kubose who founded the church, he was a wonderful man. And I learned so much from him, just from example.

AT: Did you participate in Japanese School?

AK: Mhm, mhm, for a short while. I'm trying to think -- most of the activities my parents were involved in was because of the church. That was their social life, the Issei's. That's why there was a huge membership because that was their meeting place, you know. Now, it's not as much, and all the old-timers have 00:49:00passed on.

AK: And besides services, do you remember what any of those activities were?

AK: Activities at church?

AT: That your parents might have participated in?

AK: Oh well, every year we had a picnic, of course, just like the Resettlers' picnic. Well, actually, I think Resettlers was the prelude to JASC, I think Resettlers became JASC.

AT: Did you have a favorite activity or event either through BTC or maybe other groups that you enjoyed going to?

AK: Actually, I went to BTC through -- up until the time I went to high school. 00:50:00And then I stopped going. Just like Japanese school, I stopped going to Japanese school when I entered high school. To my regret today, I wish I had continued.

AT: Was that a personal decision that you had made? To stop going?

AK: Right, because we had other activities, dancing and things, had dances and -- but things that you, you know, you think about when you're young as to opposed when you get older, just like, you know, you wish you had taken piano lessons [laughs]. But Japanese -- we were just getting into kanji. I knew katakana, hiragana, and we were getting into kanji, and I stopped. I wish I had 00:51:00continued, yeah.

AT: What other activities were you involved with while you were on the South Side? So whether grade school or --

AK: Well, we had basketball, we had, you know, basketball, there was a girls league as well as a boys league, and so we played basketball, and- half court, I think. And played baseball, although there was no league for us. But being on the South Side, the lake was a great place to be at because it was a big park and, you know, we went swimming in the lake, although there were no life guards, but we still went. I used to go fishing with my brother.

AT: On the lake?

AK: On the lake, you know. We used to get up like, 4 o'clock in the morning, and 00:52:00we were young kids, there was about six of us and we would walk over to Lake Michigan. It was dark, but... it was fun, we didn't worry about... being accosted or anything, it was just... It was a good time for us, we had a lot of freedom, yeah, we would be out after school, running around somewhere, and I don't think our parents ever knew where we were, but [chuckles] I would go to my girlfriend's house, and my brother would pick me up on his bike because 33rd and 43rd -- we'd have to- well, we could walk it, we walked it all the time, but... 00:53:00Yeah, we had a lot of freedom. I wish the kids nowadays had the freedom, but not anymore.

AT: And at that time, just being out either past dark or whatever, did you -- you always felt safe?

AK: [shakes head] Never afraid. Like I tell my friends, I says, "Yeah, I'm from the South Side, I'm not afraid of anything." [laughs]

AT: How about the girls' clubs?

AK: Mhm, there were lotta girls clubs, yeah. I was at the tail end of that era. There were quite a few girls clubs, and they all had dances.

AT: Can you describe to me what those clubs were?

AK: Well, they were mostly social, but some - from what I understand - there were some groups that would raise money for charity or something, but I don't think that was basic. Most of it was just social, and they would hold dances every once in a while. And charge whatever dollar or whatever. Those were a lotta fun.

AT: Those dances?

AK: I don't know if you know Herbie Hancock? Well, he played at -- 'cause I graduated with him from Hyde Park, and he played for our dances. He was in a combo at that time. But --

AT: And what class was that? What year did you graduate from Hyde Park?

AK: What class? 19-um, see, we graduated 1956. Yeah. We still get together with Herbie when he comes into town. In fact, he was at the Symphony Center last November. And I didn't see him, but my girlfriend went. And one of her -- he comes into town and try to get together. The nicest person you'll ever meet, you know. In fact, he was at Ravinia one time, and he had everybody sing the Hyde Park fight song.

AT: Just to go back and clarify, were you involved in any girls clubs in high school?

AK: No, not in- with the school, but outside of school we had a club.

AT: What was your -- what club were you in?

AK: We were called the Coolettes. [laughs] And I still keep in contact with those girls, after how many years.

AT: Can you tell me what you all would do? In that club?

AK: Well, we played basketball, and we would hold dances.

AT: Where would you hold those dances? And who was coming?

AK: Oh, all the... all the Japanese community. We held it at the Y. There was a 00:57:00Y on- near north. I'd have to look at my scrapbook. But... And the Olivet Institute -- I don't know if Olivet is still around. It's on Cleveland. We used to hold dances there and play basketball there. Olivet Institute. And let's see, where -- oh, and once in a while we would hold it on the South Side, Piccadillly.

AT: Was that a community center or?

AK: Piccadilly was like a- Aragon. It was like a open --

AT: A concert hall.

AK: Right. I don't really remember what it was, actually. We used to go to a lot 00:58:00of movies, every week, we would end up at the theater. With all the musicals and everything.

AT: Do you know which theater that was?

AK: Yes, it was Kenwood, on the South Side on 47th street. And then there was Shakespeare on 43rd street. That's when they had 25 cartoons. I don't know if you remember, probably not.

AT: So you mentioned you were married in 1965?

AK: Mhm.

AT: And that was when you moved out of the South Side for the first time.

AK: Right, right, mhm. It was -- so I moved to Belmont and near Belmont and 00:59:00Broadway- or Clark. I lived on Orchard street, mhm.

AT: How did you meet your husband?

AK: Oh, I met him at Navy Pier when it was U of I.

AT: And is that -- so is that where you went to school?

AK: Mhm. U of I.

AT: And what did you study there?

AK: Well, I was -- it was just general at Navy Pier, I didn't know what I wanted to do. And then after two years, I went downstate, and I ended up going to Roosevelt University and graduated in Education.

AT: And after college, what kind of work did you get [inaudible]?

AK: I was a teacher in Chicago. Same grammar school that I graduated from, Oakenwald.

AT: So continuing the legacy.

AK: So, my eighth grade teacher was the assistant principal at that time. So she told me a lot of things during the time we were children there, so. Yeah, she was one of the favorite teachers.

AT: What did you teach?

AK: Third, mostly third and fourth grade.

AT: And when you came back to Chicago after some of your schooling, where were you living?

AK: When I was married? When I got married, I was on Orchard street.

AT: And then, well, and you mentioned that you went downstate for a time. When you came back, did you just go back to Orchard street? Or did you -?

AK: No, I wasn't living -- no, I wasn't married then. I was dating him, at that time.

AT: And is that where you were living when you were teaching at Oakenwald?

AK: Mhm, mhm. And then actually, we moved further north from there. We were on Peterson and Kedzie, I think, which is even further north. And then eventually we moved to Lincolnwood.

AT: Do you remember what year it was that you moved up north to Peterson?

AK: Let's see, on Orchard, we were- was '65 when I got married, and we were 01:02:00there three years. And then we were on Kedzie for two years. And then after that we were living in Lincolnwood for -- oh, now it would be like 40 years now. But my husband passed away last April. We were married over 51 years. Yeah, I was hoping we would grow old together, but...

AT: What did you husband do?

AK: He owned a drapery and blind shop. Actually, we never had a shop, but he did mostly commercial work. And now my son has taken over the business.

AT: What was that business called when he was --

AK: It's a -- we do draperies, blinds, shades, mostly for the commercial.

AT: Did they have a business name?

AK: Kawamoto, Inc. It was so funny because we thought, well, it's very unique, Kawamoto, Inc. Well, discovered that there was an interior decorator whose name was Martha Kawamoto. So, M. Kawamoto, was not as unique as we thought, so.

AT: And what was the reason for moving farther north, especially since you were teaching on the South Side?

AK: Well, we thought we would have children, and we wanted -- we were thinking 01:04:00Lincolnwood was a good place. But of course we didn't have children, or we didn't have our son til much later. We were married fourteen years before he -- so I'm a late mother as well as a late grandmother. But we're lucky to have him. Was as much trouble as he's given me.

AT: And so the thinking was it would just be better raising a family in Lincolnwood?

AK: Mhm, mhm [nodding]. But I wish it was better for my parents. I think we had one vacation together as a family when my son was about a year and a half, 01:05:00and... yes, 'cause I don't think my mother ever had a vacation.

AT: Were your parents still on the South Side? Or did they stay on the South Side?

AK: They were still on the South Side, mhm. Then my mother had a heart attack when she was about 79, and she came to live with us and never left. So she was with us for most of our married life. My father was still on the South Side, and I finally told him, you know, "You have to leave." So I got him into Heiwa Terrace. Yeah, it was not a good, it was not an easy life for them. They lost 01:06:00the buildings to urban renewal, you know.

AT: The buildings on the South Side?

AK: Yeah. And he was broken into a couple of times and, you know, because of the change in the neighborhood, there was very few grocery stores, you know... In fact, there were not many children because the schools, you know, even Oakenwald closed, and they eventually tore it down. It's a beautiful area, if you look at 01:07:00the view, you can see downtown and just, very close to the lake, beautiful area. It's just too bad that it was run down afterwards, after a while.

AT: And you had- you mentioned that you didn't really experience any kind of discrimination in your upbringing on the South Side. Do you know if your parents did run into any...?

AK: I don't recall, they might have, but I, you know, I don't recall.

AT: Did they ever talk about camp or the war?

AK: Never. It never came up in conversation. And at that time, being a teenager, you're not interested either, but I wish I had asked them. I'm writing my father's story because I want the grandkids to know, you know, because he was the first to come to the United States in our family, and I thought it would be a good thing for them to know about that. I've been writing this thing for about ten years, so it's -- when I'll get it finished, so, that's one of the reasons why I was able to get the manifest from that ship that he came on, 'cause he 01:09:00told me the name of the ship. I wish- I'm glad I- because there's very little to go on because he -- when he was in Kagoshima, his father died, and his mother remarried, and so he has half-brothers and sisters, but no... But I remember him when we were at the Memorial Hotel on Cottage Grove, big building, and he used to- he used to be coal-burning stove, so he'd have to get all that coal coming into the basement, and he'd have to shovel all that coal into the furnace to get 01:10:00the heat going. That's probably why he lived so long, because he was so physically able. He was always playing Go, the Japanese game. That's all he did. I remember with his friends, and then he used to have Go tournaments in our basement. I remember all that smoke because it was a low ceiling, and they all were smokers. But like I said, I think the only, probably, fun they had was 01:11:00probably going to the picnics or...

AT: Do you remember -- did you attend the picnics?

AK: Yes, every one. [chuckles] Because of the races that we would have and the --

AT: Yeah, can you describe to me what the picnics were like and where they were? Who was going?

AK: Mhm, the picnics were held not too far away, it was probably on the lakefront, 40- or 50-something. I don't know if you've been to the picnics that they have now, OK, I think they wanna reproduce some of the things that they did 01:12:00by having games and prizes and yeah, it's one of my fondest memories. [laughs] Those picnics. Not only because of the games and things, but the bento, you know, the ones that your mothers made, my god, was a feast!

AT: What were some of the things that were in the bento?

AK: Those rolled eggs. Just like the kind of food you would have for New Year's, you know. Yeah.

AT: Besides what's now BTC and the Resettlers' picnic, were there other picnics that- or was it mostly -- ?AK: Yeah, no, there was a Kagoshima picnic, which is, you know, the ken, and I think there must have been Hiroshima, but my father, because being Kagoshima, he went to all the Kagoshima...

AT: And if you had to describe the Japanese American community of Chicago in those early post-war years, how would you describe it?

AK: Like I said, most of the activities were -- I don't real- my father did not participate as much as my mother because they also had the Boy Scout troop at BTC, which my brother was involved in. And... they also had, I'm pretty sure, 01:14:00what-like they do now, they have the kendo and things like that. But I remember my brother participating in the scouting, which was a very good program for them. It was huge, quite a few scouts. I don't know, the Japanese are very- so organized, you know, they can organize things very quickly.

AK: If you were to, I guess my next question would be how would you describe the Japanese American community of Chicago today? And maybe what's different or what has changed, if anything.

AK: Well, I can tell you from the church more than I could, like the JASC I'm 01:15:00not involved as much, but... it's turning to a more Caucasian -- if you go to church now to BTC there are more Caucasians than there are Japanese. And I think because the younger group- because it's now spread out so much, a lotta people living in the suburbs, they don't come into town. But I think there is more traditional things going on way back when my parents were going to- as far as like, classical dancing and- 'cause I don't think there's anybody who can teach that now. There was at one time, and my mother played the koto. I understand 01:16:00that's still- there's a group that plays that instrument. But how it differs from today and yesteryear... I think now, people are so spread out, and they have their own activities and because of the car, they can drive anywhere. They're not as religious, maybe. Though I think during my mother's time, although they probably weren't that religious, not as much as some of the Caucasians now there. They study Buddhism, and they know more than I would. I 01:17:00would know... but... Yeah, I think the Japanese are actually more prejudiced, I think, than the Caucasian, in the sense that they like to be in their own community and run their own... 'Cause I remember my father, when my brother was dating a, I think she was Chinese, oh he was very upset. As much as you know, maybe other people are prejudiced against him, he is more prejudiced than 01:18:00anybody I know. That's why we probably all marry Japanese. It was ingrained in us. So you don't have somebody like that, it's more open.

AT: And before we wrap up, I wanted to be sure to ask you about the pilgrimage that you took to Minidoka. Can you just describe when you went and what that was like for you?

AK: My husband and I, I think we drove, 'cause we were going to go to Yellowstone, so I think on the way we went to Minidoka. And they had an open- 01:19:00was it- anyway, there was a family in there who was, I guess, their parents were in this farming community and every year for the pilgrimage, this family opens their farm to the pilgrimage people, and invite them for a get-together, which is very nice, they do it every year. And, let's see, one of the activities was we got together in a group and like this, they interviewed people.

AT: I'm sorry, what year was that?

AK: 2006.

AT: And how had you -- how did that get on your radar, that such a thing?

AK: Well, I was interested in Minidoka, and I became a member of the Minidoka, I don't know if you would call it a club, but they started to have these pilgrimages, so I told my husband, I says I'd like to go sometime, so we happened to go in 2006. And... but anyway, I learned a lot. Because I always thought from my point of view it was fun. But then I began to realize that there were so many hardships that a lot of people went through. Especially a couple 01:21:00with just a infant, and how they had to stay up all night to keep the baby quiet because, you know, it was just, you could hear next door. But things like that. And those who lost... lost their sons during the war. Understand, I think, Minidoka was one of the top, as far as losing, sons in the war.

AT: And that was the first time that you had gone back since [inaudible]

AK: Mhm, mhm, and it was such an eye-opener, my goodness, it was not desolate or 01:22:00dark or grey, it was green all around, it was- I don't remember sagebrush. The water was clear and blue. The canal, I remember, was very, you know, we used to go swimming in it [makes a disgusted facial expression]. But I encourage everybody to do it if they can, go on the pilgrimage. 'Cause it will be lost.

AT: What will be lost?

AK: That-that idea that we were incarcerated. And, of course, it should never happen again, but... one never knows.

AT: When you were raising your son, did you share with him about your experiences and your family's experiences?

AK: Not really, although in school, I think it was seventh grade, there was a unit on the camps, and there was a debate on whether or not it was fair or if it was legal, and they had a debate about it, and my son was very adamant. He says that it was not fair and this and that. Well, they lost the case, it was -- they said that to protect their lives and that it was- it was not exactly right, but 01:24:00that it had to be done.

AT: That was the position that won?

AK: That's the side that won, but upset my son [chuckles]. 'Cause he's one of these very outspoken, you know, he's not like Japanese who are- held a lot of their feelings and... He'll speak up, so he was very upset when he learned about it, and I didn't tell him.

AT: You didn't tell him what?

AK: About the camps. That we were in it [chuckles]. And he was very upset when he found out his grandma and grandpa were forced into camp.

AT: So when did you share that with him, that information?

AK: When he was, like, in seventh grade, I think, that's when they taught it in school. I wish he would go to one of the pilgrimages, I says, you know, this way you can learn what happened to grandma and grandpa, how they're feeling. 'Cause my point of view is completely different.

AT: Can you explain that a little more?

AK: Oh, because of my age, you know, because I was still young, I really didn't know what was going on. I thought the whole world was just Japanese at that time, and I didn't even distinguish that there were Caucasian teachers. I guess 01:26:00when you're that age, you know, you really don't discriminate. At least I didn't.

AT: Do you remember if there was ever a time or moment that where you did start to understand?

AK: Not when I was young. It was when I got older, and as far as the hardships and everything, no, I didn't. [long pause] I don't know, I don't have any resentment because I really didn't suffer, you know. [long pause] I could 01:27:00understand the people who were- their education was interrupted or... but I think like you said, that there were a lot of people who appreciated the direction, they took a different direction, they went on to school, became engineers, and... My brother married a girl who was born in camp, and I remember her when she was one years old, walking around. He went back to Seattle. He now 01:28:00lives in Seattle.

AT: When did he make that move?

AK: Let's see, I got married in '65, he got married in '64, so he went back to Seattle, he drove back, I think in '63.

AT: Do you know why he chose to go back?

AK: Well, he married, he married the girl, she was living there. And the odd thing about it, or ironic thing about it is her father and my father knew each other in Japan. Yeah, they grew up together, and their parents, their mothers knew each other. So when my father went back for the first time, he went back in '52, there was, let's see, he left in 19- so it was like 35 years, went back. 01:29:00And they both had white hair, and their mothers' had black hair 'cause in Japan, they all dye it. And so they made 'em dye their hair, so when he-my father-came back it was dark, dark-haired. But I know they-they didn't want them to come back to America. They wanted to keep them.

AT: Had you ever thought about leaving Chicago for Seattle or?

AK: I would love to have lived in Seattle. No, Chicago is my home. Actually I, 01:30:00living in this area's longer than I've lived anywhere else. Sadly, all the buildings that we once lived in are no longer around. But all the children my age or a little older that lived in that community really have fond memories, yeah. The times we would play baseball in the park or go to the lake, swimming, and we would bike around the neighborhood, very carefree. Yeah, my girlfriend 01:31:00and I always talk about the freedom that we had, you know, nothing that we could do now, but at that time, it was- it was wonderful.

AT: We only have a few more minutes here, but before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or you wanna be sure to talk about?

AK: Well, in contrast to my parents' life, my husband and I, we always thought we had such a good life, and they provided for us, and... Like they went through Depression, the war, the relocation, and then my father went through urban 01:32:00renewal. It's just... yeah... We were lucky. I'm sure that's true of all the immigrants who came. You know. The sons and daughters had the advantages. And then our children have even more advantages, but then they didn't have the... the sense of community that we did. 'Cause not only do we know our friends, but 01:33:00we know the mothers and fathers, we know the sisters and brothers. For a while there, we would have a reunion in Las Vegas, that Tonko would arrange, and there was quite a few people, like 200 people, you know.

AT: What was that reunion for or who was it for?

AK: Chicago reunion for all the people who were either involved in the clubs or involved with the basketball or anybody who wanted to come and share their good times. Tonko and Pauline, I don't know if you know Pauline, they stopped doing it a couple years ago. I guess it was just too much to handle, but for a while 01:34:00there, yeah, we were going every, like, five years, and then it became three years, and then it became two years because we wanted to get together. We had a good time, yeah. So I don't think, you know, like, if you were raised today, and you weren't involved in that community, you would probably know a few families, but here we know a lot of families, yeah.

AT: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and coming in and sharing with us.

AK: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome.