Kojima, Wade (1/6/2023)

Katherine Nagasawa: So, today is January 6th, 2023, and this oral history is being recorded over Zoom. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa and the interviewee is Wade Kojima. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So I was wondering if you could just start with when you first heard about the redress movement, and what your reaction was to it.

Wade Kojima: The first time I heard about redress was probably in 1976. Maybe '75. But I was in a Japanese American youth organization, and JACL was just starting to try to gear up for it and talking about it at a convention. I think they talked about it in '74, but in '76, I know it was a big item on the agenda. 00:01:00And, so I, for me it was something-- I mean I knew about the camps and everything, but just getting background on all that back then. And so that's how I got some of my history. And then in '78, I became the Midwest district chair for the J-- for the youth group, so I sat on the national board level as well. And so that was a major discussion, and I knew, I got to know John Tateishi, and so I learned a lot from him as well.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And up until the mid-'70s, what did you know about camp?

Wade Kojima: I didn't know a whole lot because... Only what I heard from some of 00:02:00the JACL, is 'cause my parents were not in camp because they grew up in Hawaii, so I just knew that there was, you know they went to relocation centers. And then there was so many different camps throughout the mountains and the desert areas. And then, you know whatever the Niseis told us about it, then that's about what I knew about it. And, and then I found out that my grandfather actually was in a Justice Department camp in Santa Fe.

Katherine Nagasawa: And how did you find out about that? Did he tell you directly, or did you hear from a different relative?

Wade Kojima: No, I heard it from my mom and then some other relatives, but we never, my grandfather never talked about it, so... We basically... So I don't 00:03:00know anything from his perspective.

Katherine Nagasawa: And when you started hearing more about plans for redress from John Tateishi when you were part of-- when you were representing the Midwest, what did you think about the idea of asking for an apology or asking for monetary compensation?

Wade Kojima: Well, I felt that the apology was probably necessary. I didn't know about that monetary compensation, because most of... The people that suffered the most, I felt, when I, as I was learning, were the Isseis. You know the Niseis had, were pretty well off, you know as far as their careers and everything, but it was the Isseis that basically lost everything. You know, when you start hearing that you know, they lost their farm lands, they lost all their possessions, people that had businesses lost that, and, and they were never 00:04:00compensated for it, or very, it was a very small amount of compensation.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm.

Wade Kojima: So, but the Isseis were you know, by the time late '70s, you know, a lot of the Isseis had passed away already. And so I felt, just, this is just, was my opinion, that the money should be used for, a big chunk of it, should be used for education. And I felt that if there are still Isseis alive, then maybe we should have, you know, we should help them out as well.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, but you felt like education was the most effective form of redress?

Wade Kojima: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, gotcha. And I remember you mentioned--

Wade Kojima: Well I mean as far as--

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, go ahead.

Wade Kojima: As far as JACL, it was one thing, it would be one thing you know to 00:05:00put the money into somewhere where JACL would have some say in the implementation of any kind of education.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I remember when we talked on the phone, you said you might disagree with yourself now, with what was the most important part of redress. Do you know exactly how your mind has changed about what pieces were most important?

Wade Kojima: Well, I think for the Niseis, I think it gave them a sense of closure you know to have this happen and to get the monetary compensation. I think for a lot of 'em, they, they didn't suffer like their parents did, but there was some psychological effects, I think. I mean the anger, you know within 00:06:00a lot of them. I mean when I tried to talk to them in the '80s, a lot of people wouldn't even talk about it. You know, they all just wanted to... You know you either had the, both ends of the spectrum. People were angry about it because they missed out on things like college or, you know or they were pulled out of college, or you had the younger end of it that thought that that was kind of fun 'cause they kinda got out of school, you know it was more recreational. I mean yes, they still had school, but I think they found it kind of adventuresome at times.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you saw people on very different parts of the spectrum?

Wade Kojima: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I'm curious, you were in your early twenties... Late teens and early twenties when you were most involved with JACL and redress. What 00:07:00do you think activated you, as a Sansei who didn't even experience camp and whose parents didn't directly experience camp, to be involved?

Wade Kojima: Well for me, I had never... It was partially trying to find your identity. Because I had, I grew up, and your father might be able to say the same thing, is I grew up trying to be white, trying to fit in you know, where we lived. And so I didn't want to be known, I didn't want to really be Japanese at that point. And so this was when I got involved in JACL, it was about finding out who I was, my ancestry.

Katherine Nagasawa: And do you feel like that process happened when you were kind of first getting involved? Did you feel like that sense of community helped you feel less ashamed of your identity, or more willing to claim it in your early twenties? Or how did that process evolve for you?

Wade Kojima: I think it just made me more proud, as far as being Japanese, Japanese American, and being able to talk about it. You know because I think in the '70s you know, there was a lot going on, a lot of immigration. Like I went to University of Minnesota, and at that time when I started, that's when the Vietnamese immigration happened. So you know, the campus had hundreds and hundreds of Vietnamese students on campus back then. So you started learning 00:09:00about other Asian communities as well.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And just for context for people watching, can you talk a little bit about where you grew up, and what the demographics were of your neighborhood, your high school, and in general, how many people were in the JACL Twin Cities chapter when you entered?

Wade Kojima: When I... I grew up in Bloomington, Minnesota, and in my elementary school, I was basically the only minority in the school until I got to fifth grade, and then an Indian family moved in. And then in junior high, basically there was a Chinese family, and maybe... Maybe two Chinese families, and it wasn't until high school that there was actually some other Japanese families 00:10:00that had went to our high school as well. So, I really didn't have a lot of exposure. Now I became friends with a lot of the Japanese, just because I hadn't really had a lot of exposure. This is when I was starting to get involved in JACL. And, and so seeing other Japanese, it was you know, something that I wanted to experience, you know be friends with them. And so that was a new, that was kind of like the beginning. Minnesota is... Back then, it was... Bloomington, and even where your dad grew up in Richfield, it was still predominantly white and Scandinavian, of Scandinavian origin. So there was a lot of, back then in the early '70s, there was still a lot of name-calling, you know 00:11:00as far as... You know just 'cause how we looked, whether you, you know they thought you were Japanese or Chinese, but they had a name for you. So...

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, my dad said there was a lot of bullying, for sure, and one time he went to a grocery store and he saw one other little Asian boy, and he told his, my grandma, he was like, "That's me!" 'Cause he'd literally never seen another Asian kid before. So, I can imagine it was isolating.

Wade Kojima: Yeah. It was very, you know... You didn't really realize how it, how many Asians really are in the world.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I know after high school, when you moved to Ohio, you got involved in the Cleveland chapter. Can you talk about that transition and the role you took on when you joined the Cleveland chapter? 'Cause you were the redress representative for them, right?

Wade Kojima: Yes, I was. And so it was a, kind of a natural thing for me, since I was on the Twin Cities JACL board before I moved. I was on it during college and then when I moved, it just seemed natural for me to get involved. And so I got-- Because I knew a lot of the Sanseis on the board in Cleveland, so I got involved, and somehow they asked me to become redress chair, which is very difficult when you don't know the community. And so I had to rely on... My wife is from Cleveland, so her extended family. So I had to reach out to them first 00:13:00and try to talk to them. And, and there were some angry... We had discussions, and a lot of anger came out because of that discussion.

Katherine Nagasawa: Anger at asking for redress, anger about the camps?

Wade Kojima: Anger about the camps, and anger about talking. I mean it just like brought out emotions out of people that I had never, you know, you would never think, you know that just them talking about what happened in camp made them angry. You know, and those are the people that were a little bit older. There was people that were younger in camp, and some of them had good things to say... Not good things, but fun things that they remembered, like playing baseball and hitting the ball over the fence so the guards would have to get the ball, or they would volunteer to go work in the farm fields, picking vegetables and 00:14:00fruits. So, you heard things like that.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any of the things that people said, the people who were angry or, or resentful?

Wade Kojima: Resentful because they were technically American citizens, and basically not being... You know, a violation of their constitutional rights, you know as a U.S. citizen. And my mother always said though, that in times of war, 00:15:00anything can happen. You know 'cause of mass hysteria. And I mean we actually witnessed it again with 9/11, to a, not to that degree of the Japanese, but the attitudes were there.

Katherine Nagasawa: What was it like for you to have to probe into your in-laws side about something that is so sensitive and, and triggering?

Wade Kojima: It was very difficult. It was... I didn't want to get people mad at me, because I wound up eventually marrying into the family. So you know and, but there were people on both sides of the fence. You know, some were angry and some were not so angry. And you know, in the end, I think even the angry ones kind of 00:16:00mellowed out over the years, and were able to talk about it a little bit more. And in fact, the one-- My wife's one uncle who was so vocal about it, he actually joined the JACL board. And so that just amazed me that he could do that after being so angry at, at everybody, at the world about this.

Katherine Nagasawa: What do you think was the main thing that pushed him into joining or that changed him?

Wade Kojima: I think, well, a couple things. One was he saw what JACL represented and what they were doing on the national level. And then he also, he saw how the Niseis were treating the Sansei, and so he got involved, him and 00:17:00another aunt got involved, of my wife's. You know, they got involved because the Niseis never let the Sanseis run things. A lot of times they would tell them what to do. And so their goals were to try to get the, move the Niseis out and let the Sanseis come in. But I think by that point, when they, when they did that, it was already too late, because I'm on the younger side of the Sanseis, the reality of that generation. And, and so a lot of them had already been in JACL and quit because, because the Nisei always told them what to do.

Katherine Nagasawa: Could you describe a bit of the breakdown of who was Nisei 00:18:00and who was Sansei in the chapter, and that dynamic that feels kind of, kind of paternalistic between Nisei and Sansei? Because you said it was like 90% Nisei, right?

Wade Kojima: It was. And I mean, and what I found out too, even in the Twin Cities, Sanseis didn't want to join JACL because they didn't want to... Because it almost felt like, this is what it felt like to me, okay? And I had never been involved in an organization like this. So for me, it was kind of a learning experience, but basically it was like everybody reported back to your parents. If they didn't like something you said or something you did, they would tell your parents. And so consequently, that's like, I think, a lot of why Sanseis 00:19:00were starting to fall away from the organization.

Katherine Nagasawa: Were you able to recruit any people your age to join during that period?

Wade Kojima: Oh, yes I, we did. I was able to get a few to come in, but it's more for social aspects of it, not really for leadership. And I really probably never really appreciated the leadership opportunities I had until maybe today, you know, or later in life.

Katherine Nagasawa: What do you feel like, you know being part of that organization taught you about leadership? Or what kind of opportunities did it provide?

Wade Kojima: Well, the one thing is, you know there's no right way or wrong way to learn from everybody, but you need to jump in with both feet and get, you 00:20:00know commit yourself to something. And I think that's how you learn. I think that's how you learn how to be a good leader, good mentor, and you have to be open to new ideas, which is something the Niseis always had a hard time with. As far-- I mean, I used to have suggestions in Twin Cities and they would kind of tell me, "Well, you're still young."

Katherine Nagasawa: Despite feeling... Despite getting that kind of treatment from the elders, what do you think made you stay and spend so many years trying to work on efforts around redress and community building?

Wade Kojima: Well, I think because of, because of the sanseis that I knew on the, in the community, I just stayed on as long as I could. I started probably phasing myself out after six or seven years on the Cleveland chapter, because there was a few leaders, Niseis, on the board that really... They would call me, one would call me and just yell at me and say you know, "You're not doing anything that you should be doing." And he would just, he would call me at work and he would yell at me, and he'd say, "Why don't you just resign?" And I said, "If you want me off the board, then you just kick me off the board." I said, "I will not quit." But he didn't want to go that far.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Intergenerational tensions.

Wade Kojima: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I was wondering if you could describe a bit more about your role as redress chair? What do you remember your responsibilities being, and kind of, what did the role entail?

Wade Kojima: Well, part of it was trying to raise... I know part of it was to raise funds to gain awareness, you know. And we were, I mean part of it was raising funds for the national organization, because that's, you know we had to come up with... You know, every chapter had to commit so many dollars to that. And so, yes, that was part of it. The other part of it was trying to get people 00:23:00to be on the, like a Speakers Bureau, so if they wanted, and they already had one, but I, you know I had to talk to a few more people to try to get them involved in, in it. And in the end, they had, they had quite a few, I know in the late '80s and into the '90s, there was quite a few people that would go out and speak.

Katherine Nagasawa: Which names do you remember of people you got to be part of the Speakers Bureau? These were Nisei, right? Probably?

Wade Kojima: These were Nisei. Well, one of my supporters back then was Sadie Yamane, and she was, she was a part of the Speakers Bureau for a long time. And then, but she was, she was actually a Sansei. She was an old sansei. She was, I think she was born in camp, if I'm not mistaken. And then my one uncle, or my 00:24:00wife's uncle, Harry Takeda, he was, I think he spoke at places. I think Jim Doi was another one.

Mary Doi: Can I, can I ask a question? Was this Jimmy Doi, who might've taught at... Oh no, you're in Cleveland.

Wade Kojima: This is Cleveland.

Mary Doi: Michigan, sorry, different Doi.

Wade Kojima: Yeah, I, I mean know people in Michigan too, but...

Mary Doi: Thank you.

Wade Kojima: Hank Tanaka was another big one back in the '80s that did a lot of speaking.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mr. Takeda, the uncle, is he the one who was really angry at the beginning and then joined the board?

Wade Kojima: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, gotcha. That's amazing that he went from not wanting 00:25:00to speak about it at all or being really upset, and then being able to do public speaking.

Wade Kojima: Yes, it was. And even when I lived in Chicago in the '90s, he would, every time I would see him when we would visit, he would say, "When are you moving back to Cleveland? I need you, I need you on the board." Him and my aunt, my wife's aunt, Setsu Nakashige. She was another one that would go out and speak as well. But both of them kept wanting me, wanted us to move back to Cleveland so I could get back involved on the board.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, they want to galvanize the Sansei. I was wondering, out of your wife's side of the family or people that you recruited for the Speakers Bureau, do you know how many of them actually testified at the Chicago hearings? 'Cause I know Hank Tanaka did, I think, testify.

Wade Kojima: Yes, he did. I don't, I don't know, actually. I mean, I knew a few of the people that probably testified, but I don't know if any of the family did.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I remember you said you, you didn't make the trip to Chicago for the hearings.

Wade Kojima: I did not.

Katherine Nagasawa: I was wondering, do you remember the names of any of the other Midwest or Ohio-based redress representatives that you would've worked with closely for fundraising or for identifying witnesses?

Wade Kojima: My memory is not that good. (laughs)

Katherine Nagasawa: You remember a lot of names, I feel.

Wade Kojima: I do. I mean, people like in Detroit, I remember Jimmy Shimura, he was heavily involved. He was, he was the attorney for Vincent Chin, and that 00:27:00whole thing that went on when Vincent Chin was killed because of the auto work, you know, people looked at him as being Japanese.

Katherine Nagasawa: And he was involved in redress as well? You said that Linda Hashimoto's husband knows him or something?

Wade Kojima: Yes, that's correct. They went to school together at Michigan State.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Detroit.

Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm.

Katherine Nagasawa: Who else do you remember?

Wade Kojima: And Linda's always-- Linda has been involved, but not on redress, but she's always been involved, and she volunteers with every organization in the Twin Cities. But other people I remember is like May Tanaka out of Minneapolis. I'm sure there's a lot... Kimi Hara. They were all big leaders in, 00:28:00in the Twin City area. I think--

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any Sansei that were particularly involved around Ohio, or people who might still be alive?

Wade Kojima: No, most of the people... Me, well, Bill Sadataki Jr. was involved when I was, but he got off the board before I did, even. And then my wife's cousin was on the board, John Akiba Jr. He was on the board, but then he moved to Minneapolis.

Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. Could you talk a bit about the landscape of the Ohio JACL chapters? Did they have-- Were certain ones much larger than others? Did certain ones really focus on specific issues, or... I guess were you in regular 00:29:00contact with them as well?

Wade Kojima: I probably was in more contact with them, with all the chapters when I was in, when I was the Midwest district chair for the youth group. But yeah, I didn't-- I didn't know who... I couldn't remember now who was working on redress from the other chapters. Cincinnati, Cincinnati had a fairly large JACL chapter, and then Dayton was a little bit smaller. I'm trying to think some of the... In Dayton, that was one of the age discrimination cases there with Borden Milk, I think, I'm trying to think of his last name. His first name was Mas, I think. And then I don't know if you know who Pete Hironaka is? He was the 00:30:00cartoonist for the Pacific Citizen, he, he was a cartoonist and so he did all the cartoons in the Pacific Citizen. And so I knew his daughter in, in the youth group, so...

Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. So it seems like Cincinnati and Cleveland were maybe two of the larger chapters?

Wade Kojima: Yeah, and then Detroit, was a, it was a fairly large... A lot of family there. Shimuras, the Teshimas were the two big families there, and then you know, there was Milwaukee and also Minneapolis, so...

Katherine Nagasawa: If you could characterize the role that you feel like Cleveland played in the redress movement, how would you describe it?

Wade Kojima: I don't necessarily know we had a-- I mean, I think we had some role in it. I mean a lot of it was because of our connection with Hank Tanaka because he also was, he sat on the national board before, I think he was JACL board president, national board president at one time. You know so he had a lot of connections. And, but he wasn't... I'm not a fan of his. Him and I kind of butted heads a few times, and, and he's one of the, he's one of the reasons a lot of Sanseis got off the board. But I have a lot of respect for, for Hank. Hank did a lot for the organization, and, and I did learn a lot from him.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Do you remember his stance on redress? Like do you remember conversations with him about the redress movement and what he would've said about that?

Wade Kojima: He was, he really wanted to push forward really hard you know, for redress, and you know, his complaint to me was that I, again, because I was new to the community, there was a lot of things I didn't know how to go about, making contacts and everything. And he was pushing me to make a lot of calls. And, and at that time you know, I was pretty young, I was still young, and trying to make cold calls to Niseis is a little difficult.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. So he would've wanted you to be more, I guess, aggressive--

Wade Kojima: Assertive.

Katherine Nagasawa: ...with your outreach, or assertive?

Wade Kojima: Yes, yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Wade Kojima: I mean I even-- I worked in sales, sales engineering and, and project management my whole career, and I'm not, I don't handle that very aggressively. I, I find a way into the door from some other angle, usually.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I feel like there are different approaches too, to outreach, because it seems like you were definitely able to get your wife's side of the family to open up in some way or another, and get very involved eventually. So, I remember you had mentioned when we talked earlier that being involved in JACL kind of maybe was the reason why you took on other opportunities in the swimming world as you know, project manager or leader. Can you talk a bit about how you applied lessons from JACL and redress to other parts of your career or hobbies?

Wade Kojima: I think a lot of it... A lot of what I learned is about how to be, let, let things roll off of you. I mean you're always going to have people that are going to be critics of everything you do. And, and I have learned to not take it personally when people are saying things because, I just know from my experience, they're just passionate about what they're talking about. And so I kind of try to not let it affect me as much. You know and I, I was on the board of a Christian school in suburban Chicago. And even when I didn't agree with, 00:35:00with what direction we were going, you know, there were a few board members that agreed with me and they said, "We need to, we need to disagree with everybody else." And I said, I said, "We can disagree with what they say, but if the board passes this," I said, "we have to get behind everybody. We have to be part of it. We can't be critics after the fact. After they pass a direction, we're going to go." And so I, you know I think like that, I learned a lot in JACL, because you have to try to appease a lot of people.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. So probably taught you a lot about working with different points of view and kind of political savvy, maybe.

Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. And, and the same thing in swimming. I mean it's... You're 00:36:00going to always have parents yelling at you or coaches yelling at you because of, "that wasn't fair". You know, and you have to be able to stand up for your other officials and, and talk very civilly with everybody. And there are times that I'm thinking something I'd like to say to them, but I can't say it. I have to be more politically correct and, and try to keep everybody calm. And so, and that's how kind of how I rose up in, in the swimming world, is because I, I have a pretty even temperament, and so people recognize that. So I was official... I was diversity chair first, which, that's another area that's really hard to 00:37:00discuss with people. And then, and then I was officials chair and then became the general chair.

Katherine Nagasawa: And can you just give a bit of context about what, what organization this is with?

Wade Kojima: Okay, so it is Mississippi Swimming. We're part of USA Swimming. It's, Mississippi Swimming is one of 52 local swim councils within USA Swimming, and so we encompass all of Mississippi. But, so basically we direct all the swim clubs that are in Mississippi, and we have to sanction all their meets, and we have to have officials so that they can have their meets. So, every, every swim council has to run their particular area. And then from an officials standpoint, 00:38:00it's more difficult because you have to volunteer, get trained, get experience. And, and so I've had to do a lot of training in that.

Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha, thanks for giving that background. I wanted to end just with some reflections on the legacies of redress. And I wanted to start with asking you if you remember when the Civil Liberties Act eventually passed in the, in 1988, and do you remember where you were, who you were with, and how you felt when, when it passed? Were you still involved in... Were you in Ohio then or no?

Wade Kojima: No, I wasn't in Ohio, but I was actually on projects back in '88, I was in projects in Detroit area, so I was probably in contact with Jimmy Shimura more than I was with the Cleveland chapter. But, and then I moved in 1990, I 00:39:00took a job in Chicago area. And then I actually had reached out to Bill Yoshino, thinking that maybe I could get back involved again in JACL, but just couldn't... Bill was, at that time, I think he was like... Was he the national director for a while?

Katherine Nagasawa: I think at some point, yeah.

Wade Kojima: Yeah. And so he was very busy, and so I could never you know, make contact with him, so... And plus--

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember though, even if you weren't super involved with the JACL chapter, did you remember reading about the Civil Liberties Act passing, and how you felt?

Wade Kojima: I felt good that it did eventually you know, get passed, and I felt good that you know the niseis were kind of, were very excited about it, you know hearing it from my wife's relatives. So...

Katherine Nagasawa: How did that aunt and uncle react, the ones that were more involved?

Wade Kojima: I think, well I think in '88 they probably weren't involved yet. So I think once they saw that getting passed, I think that changed their opinion on a lot of things, you know, what JACL was doing. And so you know it's... That was a long process for a couple of the family members. You know and I, and the 00:41:00reality is they probably, once they got, you know a check from the government, they actually realized that something had, you know that JACL did, you know something that was concrete. It felt concrete to them.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you feel like the apology also played a role for them, like hearing an apology from the president?

Wade Kojima: I believe for the older ones, older Niseis, that was a big thing for them. I don't know about the younger ones, if they, you know... I mean when I say younger ones, they were older when that happened, but you know, I don't think they had, they had the same feelings from that particular time period you know going forward. You know and so they might not have had the same, the same 00:42:00feeling at that time. But I do know that they, most people that I talked to, they all felt good about the passing of that.

Katherine Nagasawa: How did you feel about the inclusion of the Civil Liberties Public Education Fund? Because I remember you mentioned that education was a very key part of what redress should represent.

Wade Kojima: Well, I mean at that point I... All we can do at this point is try to relate experiences that we know about to other people. I mean, I've had more discussions about relatives being in camp, you know, my wife's family being in camp, with other people, especially since I've lived in Mississippi, because 00:43:00they had no knowledge about any of this. And so it was, it's been pretty enlightening for a lot of people, you know, that the government actually did something like that. You know and it's, I guess in some ways, you know with what's going on with them, with slaves' families trying to get you know, reparations from the government for now, and a lot of it's in the South, but you know, I, I don't see a correlation in the attitudes of all those families like the Japanese. Japanese were never publicly vocal about it, as much as what you see about the way slave families are. They broadcast how the injustice was done 00:44:00you know, hundreds of years ago.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you see a connection at all between the redress movement for Japanese Americans and those calls for reparations today?

Wade Kojima: I can understand what they're, what they're thinking, but I think that time has passed on that. I think, you know I think some of, because you're talking generations removed already, it would've been like their great-great-grandparents that were you know, slaves. And so I think it's part of history, and I think we have to, we have to learn to, at least learn from that 00:45:00as well. I think, I think we forget about the educational piece sometimes. I mean I wish, I wish there was more education, as far as the camps were, you know, that were in, in history books.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah this project actually is funded, not directly from that Civil Liberties Public Education fund, but sort of an outgrowth of it. And so it's from the National Park Service.

Wade Kojima: Okay.

Katherine Nagasawa: And in some ways I see that the funding for this project is somewhat of a legacy of all the redress efforts too. So it's kind of interesting to work on a project about redress that is, the funding is maybe helped, in part, by redress. So I think there are, there are funds that are specifically 00:46:00around teaching Japanese American incarceration history and redress history now.

Wade Kojima: I mean I'm encouraged by the fact that they, you know like at the World War II Museum in New Orleans, they do have an area about camp in there. You know and, and there, we did go to the museum in Los Angeles as well. I've been there, but you know, and that has a lot more. And then in Hawaii, they have a plantation camp, which you can learn how the Japanese actually lived on the islands too.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it seems like there are a lot of, a lot more exhibits in recent years dedicated to teaching this history.

Wade Kojima: Yes. And I think we should. You know I mean my wife's father's, my 00:47:00wife's father's family was in the camps in Arkansas, and I recently found out that my, one of my dad's sisters' husband, his family, his family, he was actually in the same camps in Arkansas. And so I was talking to my cousin, and she was saying that she'd like to go visit there, and they have a small museum there and they have monuments, you know?

Mary Doi: I'm going to interject here. There actually is a pilgrimage to Rohwer and Jerome this year, May 3rd through 6th.

Wade Kojima: Okay.

Mary Doi: And so I can email you contact information on that.

Wade Kojima: That would be great. I've probably, I've been meaning to go there for quite a few years, 'cause it's only about a two-and-a-half hour drive from my house.

Mary Doi: It's well worth it.

Katherine Nagasawa: I think, Mary, you have like a really interesting question about what repair looks like. Do you want to, do you want to jump in and kind of ask that question? Something we've been asking a lot of people that we've been interviewing.

Mary Doi: Yeah, you know, we call it redress and reparations. So in, in that term, 'reparations', it implies a kind of repair. So do you feel like repair has happened for Japanese Americans, either those who were in camp or their descendants?

Wade Kojima: You know, it can vary between... I mean I, I talk to my wife's mother, who's still alive, and while she won't say anything bad about camp, but I can tell just the, her certain attitudes like at times, she's missed out on 00:49:00things in life over the years, she'll remember things. "I didn't get to do that because of, you know because of the war." And I think that's, I think for some Niseis, those kind of things have lingered on since childhood, or since you know, when they were young. So yes, we were taught, I mean I think all the Niseis were taught by their parents, that we have to you know, keep face, and we have to move on and do well for our families. And so I think, and that's the way the Sanseis were taught, as well. You know, you can't worry about everybody else. And so I think it's hard to say. I think there's, there were things, I 00:50:00think things did get repaired a little bit, but I think there was not enough talk with some of the generational things that went on, that, I think there was still pent-up anger from some of it. It's hard for me to pinpoint everything, but I get that sense.

Mary Doi: You know, I'm probably a little bit older than you, and I have a daughter who's very involved in Chicago JACL, and then kind of the, something called Tsuru for Solidarity, which is a peaceful, you know, direct action organization nationwide that really has protested the separation of children from parents when you know, asylum seekers are in the U.S.

Wade Kojima: Right.

Mary Doi: One of the things that the Yonsei in her sphere talk about is 00:51:00intergenerational trauma. That is trauma that, even though we didn't experience the camp, it's passed down to us through our parents in an unspoken way, and, and from us to our own kids. So from Sansei who didn't experience it, it's transferred somehow to the Yonsei. And you see this in, also, studies of the Holocaust. I think that's where you probably heard the phrase first, that intergenerational trauma about the Holocaust still exists, even like biochemically, it still exists. So this was a whole new idea for me. Does it resonate at all with you?

Wade Kojima: I think they may be onto something there. I mean I do see that. I don't necessarily know that, since my parents weren't in camp, I don't know if I you know, really have experienced that handed down, but I get the sense from, 00:52:00from my wife's family, even, that, yes, there is, a lot of that has been passed down.

Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I had another question about, since you're in the South and you've dealt with you know, Mississippi Swimming, et cetera.

Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm.

Mary Doi: When you tell the story about incarceration, is it easy for people to understand how we are Americans? You know, we are not Japanese-Japanese, but we are Japanese American. Do they make that distinction and hold it in their thought process?

Wade Kojima: A lot of them do, I mean, but it's really hard sometimes down here. I mean, all right, so it depends on the age group you're talking to. When we first moved down here, I had a realtor that was 70 years old, and she said to 00:53:00me, her comment to me was, "Well, you're so much smarter than us." And I said, "What?" And it, and it was you know that Japanese people are smarter than you know Americans. And I said, "Well, that's, that's kind of a stereotype."

Mary Doi: Right, right, right.

Wade Kojima: And, and I try to you know, tell her, you know yes, you're going to have, you're going to have some that are, you know? But it's just what they hear, you know.

Mary Doi: Right.

Wade Kojima: And the problem was, you know, when Nissan and Toyota and Honda moved into this country and established, you know the Japanese, that came over, they were so strict with their kids about going to Saturday class. You know or, like in Chicago, they have, they actually have that full-time Japanese school 00:54:00there. And so it's, it's, it's about, everything is about getting good grades. It's not about having fun in high school, it's about getting into the best college you can.

Mary Doi: Mm-hmm. I think sometimes people talk about the negative effect of positive stereotypes. I think that that's something that exists.

Wade Kojima: Yes, I would agree with that.

Mary Doi: For example, I'm horrible at math and science, you know, and that's certainly one of the stereotypes.

Wade Kojima: It is. But you know, and the other stereotype about Asians and Japanese is you're all professional. Doctors, attorneys, you know? We're not all doctors and attorneys.

Mary Doi: Right.

Katherine Nagasawa: Let's have one last question. It's sort of a hypothetical, but I was thinking about your wife's side of the family, and just how much time it took for people to really open up over the years, and even past the Civil Liberties Act, that it took time for people to process and, yeah, kind of go through that process of repair. How do you feel like your wife's side of the family would've been, had redress never happened, had this process of talking about camp and receiving compensation and an apology just never happened?

Wade Kojima: I wouldn't want to even imagine that. I think you'd still have, I think some of the trauma passed down to generations might have been, would've been worse, I think. I mean there is some trauma, I mean I can see it. But I 00:56:00think it could, it could have been worse. And it's, it's hard to say. But I guess you know, and I, I guess I try to look at things a little more optimistically, and you know, we all have to put aside some of these things and, and move on. I mean if, when you start talking about passing it down to your kids like that, I have really worked hard to try to let my kids make their own decision. You know that they need to understand the consequences you know, but I'm not going to tell them what to do. And I think sometimes our, my parents 00:57:00pushed too hard in one direction, and I know my wife's parents push too hard, too, you know, and you just get resentful, and... But you know, when you talk about the... I also hear, I got this from my older son. He said, "I don't like the way you raised me," is what he said to me. And I said, well I said "We don't know everything." And I said, "I didn't like the way my parents raised me either, but I would never talk about it. I would, you know as far as I felt, I'm going to change it with my children. That's how I viewed it." And I said, "If you didn't like something I did, then you can change it when you have kids." So, 00:58:00I mean we have to move on, I think. We can't forget, but we need to move on.

Katherine Nagasawa: It reminds me a little bit about what you said about Hank over the phone, where you said you really admired parts of him and you took those to heart, but then you also didn't like certain things about his leadership style, and that you learned from that as well, to not do that when you became a leader.

Wade Kojima: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: So, I think it is that process of generation to generation, of honoring the people before you and taking those lessons that feel right, and then making your own, kind of forging your own path, too.

Wade Kojima: Right.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, do you have any last questions before we wrap?

Mary Doi: This is a little bit of a, like housekeeping question. Are you still 00:59:00in touch with anybody involved with the JACL in Minneapolis?

Wade Kojima: Off and on. I mean I, I go up to Minneapolis once, once a year. I always see Linda Hashimoto, or her married name is van Dooijeweert. But I see her all the time. And I haven't seen, I haven't seen Gloria Kumagai in a while, but she was the board president for a while. Tom Hara. I mean there's a few people that I've, I've seen off and on, but I haven't you know, really had a lot of contact with them.

Mary Doi: I ask because we're trying to find somebody in that chapter to talk with about--

Katherine Nagasawa: Redress.

Mary Doi: ...redress movement in Minneapolis. So if you have any ideas, please pass them on!

Wade Kojima: Oh, well, I think I can text you Linda Hashimoto's cell number. Do you have that?

Katherine Nagasawa: I don't have that.

Mary Doi: Yeah, so Kat will probably call that person.

Wade Kojima: Okay. If, if anybody knows anything in Minneapolis, it's Linda.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay.

Wade Kojima: You know she, she volunteers on every single board, she's on the St. Paul Arts Council, the Nagasaki Sister City board. She teaches Japanese dance still. You know so she's involved with the community, so she knows everybody.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. That would be great. And she knows Jimmy Shimura too, which you said he was involved with redress?

Wade Kojima: He was. I'm trying to think. The only family, the only person up 01:01:00there that I know of is Paul Teshima, and I can't, I don't know if I can get you his number or not, but his family and the Shimuras were real involved, but there aren't anybody that... Oh, Jimmy Shimura still lives up there, so Linda could give you his number.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay.

Wade Kojima: And I might even have it on my phone. I'll have to look, 'cause...

Katherine Nagasawa: That would be amazing.

Wade Kojima: Okay.

Katherine Nagasawa: Thank you so much. Yeah, you have a, such an encyclopedic memory about people too, 'cause you knew so many of the people we asked you about Ohio, people in Ohio. So, thank you so much. Really helpful. Thank you.

Mary Doi: Thank you.

Wade Kojima: Yeah, if you have any other, you can always give me a call. I mean I'm... But say "Hi" to your father. I haven't seen him in years.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, well if you're ever in Southern California, let us know. I'm sure he'd love to catch up.