Kudo, Eigo (11/26/2022)

Katherine Nagasawa: Today is November 26th, 2022, and this oral history is being recorded at 301 Adobe Estates Drive in Vista, California. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa, and the interviewee is Eigo Kudo. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So could you start by telling me how you first heard about the redress movement, and how you got involved in it?

Eigo Kudo: Well...

Elsa Kudo: I used up all the cream, the half-and-half.

Eigo Kudo: We were living in Honolulu then, and we heard that there was a movement for Japanese Americans to at least get something, I guess what you call 00:01:00redress. And we were also concerned, because we wanted to be included. But we were told by the political officers of Senator Matsunaga at that time that we will not be included because they cannot take a chance. If we go in there, there's more chance of saying no. So my wife and I just gave up hope on that. And rightly so, because they were fighting for Japanese American side, not us. So we just gave up and said, "Okay, I hope they get what they want." So that was it.

Katherine Nagasawa: Did you hear about redress from the JACL in Hawaii? Or do you remember exactly-

Eigo Kudo: No, JACL never contacted us. We went through newspapers were mentioning about all this. So we talked to Senator Matsunaga's office because he was one of the main person to put this into Congress. I was told by the office, not Senator Matsunaga, but Matsunaga's office people told us that they didn't want to take a chance by including us. So we understood.

Katherine Nagasawa: So then how did you get involved in the CWRIC hearings in Chicago?

Eigo Kudo: We heard about the hearing, that the Japanese Americans are going to have hearing as to how that happened, et cetera, and everybody's comment, et cetera. So we wrote to Senator Inouye, saying, "Now, how can we get into this so that we can testify also?" And he wrote us back. He said, "Well, the next one, hearing, is Los Angeles. After that in San Francisco, I think Seattle was in there. And then Chicago and New York." Those were the last five. I don't know where else he went. But Senator Inouye also said that we had to contact JACL so that we can get into any of the five. And we contacted JACL for the five places, 00:04:00and all five said no.

Elsa Kudo: Meaning they were already-

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, they just said no. And Elsa just happened to mention this to her brother Carlos in Chicago, and he said, "Well, I know this lady that's doing all this programming very well, so I'll ask her." So we said, "Yeah, good luck." And then Carlos called us back and he said, "Hey, I got you 15 minutes for three people." So I said, "Oh, okay." And we talked to Peruvian Issei in Chicago like 00:05:00Mr. Takeshita, Furuya, and Matsuda, and we told them, "So, Seiichi Higashide, me, and Elsa, the three of us will represent Peruvians." And all three of them agreed, because Papa Higashide, Seiichi Higashide, was leader for all this Peruvian group in Chicago anyway, and in Nisei, Elsa and I were the leading... Well, we're always for the Peruvians, for meeting, et cetera. So we said, "The three of us will go, you think it's okay?" And all three of them said, "Yeah, we'll select you three anyway at any time." So we contacted a couple of others 00:06:00in L.A. and San Francisco, and they agreed that we three will represent. And that was one of your questions as to how we were selected, the three of us. But in any event, Elsa went on Friday, she flew with her father and mother and stayed with my brother and his wife. His wife is Elsa's younger sister. Just for the benefit of your... There are four generation.

Katherine Nagasawa: Brothers and sisters marrying each other?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My grandfather in the Kudo side and his younger brother married two sisters. My father and my mother got married, and my 00:07:00mother's older brother married my father's younger sister. And then we are married, and then our daughters are married to brothers. So that's four generations. Kind of interesting, but that's a side story.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah.

Eigo Kudo: But anyway, our testimony... Oh, her brothers and sisters, and my sister and my brother were all rooting for us anyway, so I went there on Saturday. I left Friday night, because I had work to do and then arrived 00:08:00Saturday morning. I flew all night on United Airlines. And when I got there, Elsa said, "We still have the five minutes for the three of us." So that's when I started writing my speech, and Elsa started hers, and then Papa Higashide started his. And he said to me, "I'm going to speak in Japanese. You think it's all right?" I said, "Oh yeah, I'll do the translating for you." And he said, "Oh yeah, okay." So he wrote it in Japanese, and then I wrote it in English, and I was supposed to give that English. When we got there, when I got there on Saturday, I was told by Elsa that they added three more people, two more people, 00:09:00and 15 more minutes. So I said, "Okay, we'll keep our five minutes the way we planned and then let..." Because one of them was a Professor Gardiner, and we were very glad that he was there, because he was an authority on Peruvian...

Elsa Kudo: Japanese.

Eigo Kudo: Getting caught in Peru, and Japanese brought to the U.S. for prisoner exchange. You have to remember that we were supposed to be exchanged with prisoners caught in Philippines, 30,000 were prisoners in Japan, American soldiers. Originally, Roosevelt said, "Hell, we got 120,000 in our camp, use 00:10:00them to..." And all the advisors said, "No, we cannot do that because more than half are American citizens, and the rest are all, what we call 'legal aliens.'" So he said, "Okay, then get some Japanese from some other place." And that's how we got caught. Argentina, Brazil, and Chile said, "No way you're going to get any of our people." Then he went to Peru, and Manuel Prado was the first one said, "Yeah, I'll give you Japanese." And then Roosevelt told them, "You can keep all their assets." So they started to take our assets and all our bank accounts were frozen and we couldn't take them out. And eventually, they took it 00:11:00over. So we never got it back. My sister was a Peruvian citizen, because she was born in Peru, so she had her savings account, and that was the only money that we had. My brother and I were too young to have bank account, so... Lot of people don't realize that we lost a lot of assets that we had. My father owned an import-export business and he had wholesale outlet and then a retail outlet in another place. And we imported silk from Japan, cotton from U.S., and wool 00:12:00from England. And those were the main products. And then we started to bring in ceramics like Kutani from Japan. And oh, we sold many, many items to prominent Peruvians because they loved Japanese ceramics. And it took a year and a half for my father's assets to be sold out. A year and a half. In December of 1943, finally, we had no more assets at all because finally all the items are sold. During that time, the government people get into the cashier box, and when we 00:13:00sell, they keep the money, and at the end of the day, they give my father the allowance and all the payment to the employees. And we never saw any income cash from day one. So my father said, "Okay, so we're finished. So I guess I better get used to the 50-kilo suitcase." And he used to practice at home. In December he started and then he got arrested on January. And then all of us would take bento at night. My mother would make, and we used to go there to the jail because that was the only way that we can talk to our father was he used to write us letters in a empty bento box. So we used to love that. And I saw her 00:14:00for the first time in that jail. My mother said, "That's Mrs Higashide, and oldest daughter, Yukiko." I said, "Oh." But I was 10 and she was seven, and at that age, you know...

Katherine Nagasawa: You don't care.

Eigo Kudo: But anyway, I knew who she was, I knew who the mother was, and her father and my father were cellmates during that period in Peru. And one night, the night of the 17th, we went and the guard said, "There's no Mr. Kudo" in Spanish. So my mother says, "There's no Mr. Kudo?" He says, "No." So my mother 00:15:00says, "Oh, we got to go to Callao." Which is a seaport. And we started to go out and catch a cab and then we saw a big truck coming out with Japanese people in it. So my mother said to the cab driver, "Follow that big van." And we did. And oh, they were waving to us, but we couldn't see my father. He was not sitting toward the end, but we assumed he was in there. And when we got to Callao, the big gate was closed and they were able to go in, but our cab couldn't. They said no. So we had to go home. So we didn't know where he was taken or anything. And 00:16:00on February 1st, we got a telegram from Spanish Embassy. Our telephone was taken over by the government too, so we didn't have a telephone anymore. So all we got was a telegram saying, "Come to the Spanish Embassy and see Minister such, such and such." So the four of us went, my sister, my brother, myself, and my mother. And they told us, "We don't know where your husband is, but we can tell you that he's probably somewhere between here and the United States, and somewhere in territory of U.S., because we know that he was taken toward United States. Now, 00:17:00the United States want the family if you want to get on the ship on March 1st. But you could only take 50 kilo of clothing for you, Mrs. Kudo, and you -- my older sister." And then for my brother and I were 25 kilo each. So we were 150 kilo of clothing only. So we couldn't take anything else, just clothing. And we measured, we weigh it and everything, and we went to Callao, the port, in March 1st, and they weighed our stuff and they said, "Oh, perfect, 150." So they were 00:18:00able to put it on the ship. All those other Japanese Peruvians that had more than their weight, they had to take out, so that their weight will be limited. So I know these people took out the sheets and took the clothing out and gave it back to the government people so they can tell their relatives to take this back. We were separated. My brother and I had to go, and we had to go to the stairway to the ship and they frisked us and they took our pen, the watch, everything that's not on the body. And they said, "Put it in an envelope and put 00:19:00your name on an envelope and then we will give it back to you next week. We're going to first see that you don't have anything explosive or anything dangerous." And so I put my pen, my mechanical pencil, my watch, everything. And one week later when we got it, we got everything back. Nothing was lost. Isn't it terrific? I guess that's U.S., because other countries, we probably wouldn't have half of the stuff back. So my brother and I were taken to the head of the ship, and then all the way to the bottom, and all the men were there. And there were several kids, but their fathers were there. We were the only small children 00:20:00without father because my father was already taken away.

Katherine Nagasawa: How old were you and how old was your brother?

Eigo Kudo: Ten and seven. No, 10 and 13. That's it. I was 10 and my brother was 13. And I said, "You think Mother and Sister will be all right?" He says, "Oh yeah, don't worry. When we get off the ship, we'll join them. So don't worry." But I cried all night because I was scared. And to go to meals, MP with a carbine would be following us to go to mess hall. You go to mess hall, you eat 00:21:00standing up, because these are transport ships for soldiers. So after I put the tray on the table, I never saw the food because I couldn't reach it. So all I did was I opened my mouth and then just shoved. So I got the cocktail fruit first, the canned ones, and then the food will... It was horrible. And about week later, one of the Filipino cooks came out, and he took me to the side and he said -- and it was by the window so I could see the food. And I went there every day after that for meal time, so I could at least see what I was eating. But two days after we left, that was March 1st. So March 3rd, all the Japanese 00:22:00men said to the captain, "These two boys don't have their father here. All the rest of the children have fathers here, so why don't you take them back to the women's side, so that they can be with their mother?" So the captain agreed. So we were sent back to... And that's when I saw my brother -- my sister, and my mother. So we stayed there. Now, the men were in the front at the bottom, and then the women were at the bottom on the back. All the rest with small children were on the deck where the officers usually stay. So they had a window, they were able to get out to the deck. We couldn't get out to the deck because you got to go about three stairways. And then to go to the cafeteria, we had to go 00:23:00that way, because the cafeteria was about one or two floors after the deck. And the meals were really something because we only had one fruit a day. The veggies were never raw, and it was always orange. So, that was the only raw fruit or veggies. So we always ate the one orange, so that at least we don't get beriberi, I guess. Then on the March 6th, we arrived to Balboa in Panama. That's the port that's on the Pacific side where the Canal is. And we stopped there. 00:24:00And so my brother and I went up to the cafeteria and ate breakfast. And we went up to the deck, and we saw bunch of trucks lined up and we see Japanese men. So my brother said, "Hey, maybe Papa is there." I said, "Yeah!" So we yell, "Papa, Papa!" And my brother said, "Oh, that's stupid. Everybody's probably 'Papa,' so we're going to yell Kudo." So I said, "Okay." So we go, "1, 2, 3." And it was, "ichi, ni, san." But then we said, "Kudo, Kudo, Kudo!" And my father stuck his face from the truck like this. And he saw us and he said...[waves] So we said, "Oh, he's alive." So we ran down to my mother's, where she was, and we said, 00:25:00"Hey, we saw Papa in the truck." So my mother says, "You did?" So she spoke good Spanish, so we went up to the captain, and the captain was from Puerto Rico, Teniente Soto. And she told him that her husband will be coming aboard, can we see him? So he said, "Well, let me first I have to sign for all the prisoners. And then after that I'll come and get you here in the captain's room." So we waited in the captain's room. About an hour later, he came back and then he says, "Okay, let's go down." And then he told him, "Señor Kudo, K-U-D-O." And they all go out. And then my father came out and he went [waves]. So I thought, 00:26:00"Oh my God, he's here." And we waited and then he came up the stairs and oh, we hugged. Yeah, that was the only time we saw my father inside the ship. In any event, on the sixth they told us everybody got to stay down there and don't come out to the deck because we were going through the Canal. So I wanted to see how the Canal worked because I knew how it worked because I read it in a Japanese book. So there's a street car that's on both sides, they pull the ship into the Canal. And sure enough, the street car was there. And I told my brother, I said, "The street car is there." He says, "Oh yeah, there it is, pulling." And then we 00:27:00got into Gatun Lake and my brother said, "Oh, this is a lake, so let's forget it. Let's go down." So we went down. And then on the 9th, we were still in Colón. That's the entrance to the Canal on the Atlantic side. And we were there for three days and we couldn't figure out why we were just stopped there. And then the morning of the 9th after breakfast, we went to the deck and I realized that now we're in a convoy. That's what we were waiting for, the convoy to develop. There were about 12 ships, but we were on the side. So I told my brother, I said, "Hey, if the U-boat comes, they're going to fire at us first." 00:28:00Because the three in the middle were really sunk down. So they must have been carrying a lot of valuable stuff. And they were right in the middle, and there were four ships, and we were one of the four on the side. But fortunately, U-boat didn't come around, so we made it to New Orleans. The morning of the 21st, after breakfast, we went out to the deck and all the water was muddy water. So my brother says, "This is funny." So I said, "Must be a river." And I said, "If it's a river here," I said, "Mississippi is the only big one here." So my brother said, "Yeah, got to be Mississippi." And then they told us, "Okay, 00:29:00everybody get ready, tomorrow we'll be going into New Orleans and all you people will be getting off. So pack everything and wear the heaviest coat, et cetera, because from here on, you'll be traveling to the camp." So I was the first one to get out. I'm always first, I like to be. So anyway, so the four of us went down and I was following this leader. It was an MP, and he took us to one big building, and then they told us, "Take off all your clothes and put it in the basket." So we did, and we all had to take a shower. And my sister says to me, "Eigo, I want you to stay in front of me and when we walk, don't walk fast 00:30:00because I'll be right behind you." So her friend, she stayed in her back, so nobody can see her front of the body in the... And that's how we walked. And one of the ladies in a bathing suit grabbed me and they started to wash me, and I thought, "I can wash myself," in Japanese. And she didn't understand. And so I said it in Spanish, and she didn't understand. I didn't know a word of English, so I couldn't say anything else. Anyway, she finished washing me. So after we washed, we had to dry ourselves. And after we dried, they threw DDT to us, our hair, all over our body. So it all was white. And then they gave us our basket 00:31:00of clothing, and that was all white with DDT. So we had to get the powder off so we can get our clothing. And there's a funny story in there. My brother says to me after we got on, he said, "Hey, there's a line over there, they're giving something. So let's line up over there." And we lined up and it was all just ladies. So my brother realized, so he said, "Okay, Eigo, I want you to just get that, and then wipe your nose and then throw it away." So I said, "Oh, why?" He said, "Just do as I say." So my brother did that, so I did that, and we came out and I told him, I said, "What in the world was that?" He says, "You're too 00:32:00young, so I'll tell you in a couple of years." And it was Kotex.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh no! So you blew your nose...

Eigo Kudo: So I didn't know. And a couple of years later, he told me in camp and I started to laugh. I said, "Oh my God, is that why we did that?" And after we ate our fast lunch, we were taken to our train and we had our number here. And I figured that out finally when he said, "This way." So I follow and to this train car here. So I went in and I see that's number 12 and my first number was 12. So I said, "Oh, this must be our seating." And sure enough, we walked, and my 00:33:00father was waiting on his seat, which was right next to us. And then the first meal was that night in a train. It was a Pullman, it was a beautiful train. And they told us, "Okay, car number 12, you're next." So my mother says, "Oh, they're telling us that we got to go to the dining car." So we went and we saw this cup with celery and carrots, and we haven't seen any fresh veggies in three weeks. So, the three of us ate with, we didn't even give it to my parents. So the guy said, "Don't worry, don't worry." I guess that's what he was saying. 00:34:00Then he brought two more glass food over there. So we gave one cup to my folks and then we, three of us, finished that cup also. Then we had a dinner and it was... Oh, that Pullman train breakfast, lunch, and dinner were beautiful. Really well done. And the morning of the 23rd, we were awakened, and they told us we'll go to breakfast inside the camp, so get ready to get off and pack up. So that's what we had to do. And then we got into a bus and they took us in.

Katherine Nagasawa: How much knowledge... You were only 10 years old.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: How aware were you of what was happening?

Eigo Kudo: Oh.

Katherine Nagasawa: What did you think was happening at that time?

Eigo Kudo: Oh, I love history and geography. And something like that, I want to always remember. That's why I can give you in detail what happened those 23 days. But I guess now I look back, I was probably the only one that remember everything like that. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what your parents' reactions were? Did they ever explain to you-

Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... what was happening?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. My father used to include me in every discussion with the family when I was only 10. But I listened, and I probably remember more 00:36:00in detail than my brother and sister. When we talk about our coming here and I explain, and my sister and my brother says, "Boy, you really remember well." But they say, "Oh yeah, I remember that too now, yeah." When I mention it, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: You're helping to jog their memory, is that it?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. So did you know you were part of a prisoner exchange program?

Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: You knew?

Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Because my father was one of the Peruvian Japanese leaders. And when we went there about second or third day, my father 00:37:00was called by the warden, and he came back and he told us that we were on the first list if there's an exchange with a prisoner to prisoner. And I guess we were one of those in the prominent Japanese list, so we were in it. And O'Rourke, the warden, told my father that, "Your family is on the first ship." Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Eigo Kudo: See, actually, there were two transport ships between United States and Japan. One was in January of 1942, which included all of the government 00:38:00dignitaries, like Consul-General, and all those people who worked in the Consul-General's office from almost every country in South America, in Central America. They left New York and all the diplomats of U.S. from Japan, they met in Madagascar, and then they exchanged the people, and the ships were supposed to be lit up, and nobody's supposed to attack them. And that was safely. And the next one was, I think, in the spring of 1942, another ship exchange. And that included school teachers, doctors, and all those people that was from South 00:39:00America and Central America. Not from the United States, because they were on the 120,000 relocation camp people. So the other day we received a note, see if we know anybody on the second exchange and so on. But I know two families. One was a doctor and the other one was a businessman, and they were on it. And in the Peruvian case, like my father and her [Elsa's] father and so on, they had what they called a long-term visa because they had business there. And the short-term visa are the Bank of Tokyo branch in Lima. So those branch people 00:40:00from Japan had what they called a short-term visa. So they were on the first and second ships. So we were never included on the second exchange ones, but we were being in the first available prisoner exchange, if there was one. But we were told in November of '44, in October of '44, that Japan found out that the people in Crystal City included old people, women, and children for exchange with American soldiers. So they said, "We don't trade soldier with the common people." So O'Rourke, the warden, told us, "You have to stay for the duration of 00:41:00the war." So we knew we were going to stay until the end of the war.

Katherine Nagasawa: So over two years then, right?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: More than two years.

Eigo Kudo: Except in December of 1945, the first ship went out from Crystal City. We had to be taken to Seattle and then they put on the ship and go back to Japan. And almost all, except for the... We were close to about 1,997 Peruvian Japanese in Santa Fe, the single people, and Crystal City, the family people. And those two combined, 384 of us said, "No, we're not going back to Japan." My 00:42:00father told me, he said, "We're not going back, because I have a home in Yokohama, and Mother has home in Tokyo, and they probably is flattened with bombing. So how can we go back now, the five of us, and say, 'Feed us?'" So my father said, "We're going to stay at least for three years, hopefully for five, and then we go back." So we had no choice, really. So I said "Okay," and my brother said, "Okay," and my sister said, "Okay." Then for us to be released, the U.S. said, "You guys are going to be released as illegal aliens and you will 00:43:00not receive one penny of welfare." And that was the reason they put us into illegal aliens. Illegal aliens cannot get any welfare. So anyway, they said, "You have to get a supporter in the U.S. to get out." Now, we don't know anybody in the U.S. So most of us from Peru couldn't go out except for three or four families. One had a sister in Denver, Tawara-san, and so they said, "Oh yeah, we'll take care of the whole family and we'll support them." So they were able 00:44:00to go. So now the rest were church involved and so on, and three or four or five family left. So we couldn't go anywhere until a guy named Seabrook came from New Jersey and said, "If you come to work in our place, I'll be your supporter." But for each worker, you could only have one dependent. So, a family with two children were automatically allowed to go to Seabrook if they both signed that they'll work at Seabrook. So in our family, with my two parents saying, okay, 00:45:00that there were three of us, so they said, "Well, your daughter is 17 or 18, so she can work." So she said, "Yeah, I'll work then, then we can get out of here." So that's how we got out. Now, Elsa's family had parent and five children, so they were not allowed to go to Seabrook. So, all the single people were allowed to go if they signed that they'll work. So we left in August of 1946, took three days to go to Seabrook, and then we started working and our parents started working and everything worked out beautifully. And all the Peruvians were hard 00:46:00workers, so Seabrook said, "Oh, if they work like that, maybe even if they have more than two dependents, maybe it's okay." So they were allowed to come. So they came in September. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see. I see.

Eigo Kudo: But being illegal alien, our salary or earnings, 30% were taken away by U.S., IRS, and we cannot file tax returns, so we don't get any benefit or deductions. And it still is that way, our tax situation. If you don't file tax 00:47:00return, they'll take out 30%. But any other income, you get 30% off too. If you had interest income coming, then that's 30% also goes to the government. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you faced so many challenges for years after the camps, because -- You faced many different financial challenges after the camps because-

Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... of being quote, unquote, "illegal alien".

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. And we were told working in that kind of condition, where my father worked, and my brother, and my sister, and my mother worked, and they worked 12 hours a day. And then every two weeks, the shift changed. So our family, my mother told me, she said, "Eigo, you're the first one home, so you'll 00:48:00do all the cooking and all the purchasing." So my mother took me to the market and told me how to choose veggies and meat and all this. And that's when I started cooking -- I was 13 -- for the family. And my sister would say to me, "Eigo, that was a good meal. Thank you." And you know, that feels good. And I always thought, "Boy..." That's why when we got married and she would make something and it's good, I tell her, "Oh, that was good!" Because it feels good to hear that to the person cooking. I learned that when I was starting to cook. 00:49:00But my first rice, I burned the daylights out of it. We didn't have the electric gohan maker, so you had to know when to knock it down. And we were playing baseball, and every inning I'd come back. And we batted too long, and the whole thing was black. And it was hard for us to buy because that was a meal for five of us. And I burned the whole thing. That's a whole day's... So my brother came home because he had to go to extra study for the English. So he said, "Oh, Eigo, I'll wash this, and you start on another pot because they'll be home soon." So I did, and I told my mother, I said, "I burned that thing, and I'm sorry, I lost 00:50:00the whole day's rice." She said, "That's all right. Just don't let it happen again." And I haven't to this day. I never burned anything after that.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's a lot of responsibility though, for somebody who's 13, to have to feed the whole family.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. But, you start to feel... First I started with onion and the cheapest meat was hotdog. So I used to cut it, and saute, and then put shoyu on it. And I make salad, cut the lettuce and so on. And each time, I wanted to do 00:51:00something better.

Katherine Nagasawa: Continually improve?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I know you write about a lot of this in your testimony. You talk about your dad being a business owner in Peru.

Eigo Kudo: A what?

Katherine Nagasawa: You talk about a lot of this story in your testimony that you gave during the five minutes. And five minutes is such a short amount of time to have to tell this whole story. Can you tell me what it was like to have to write it out? What did you want to make sure you... What kind of message did you want to come across?

Eigo Kudo: On the testimony?

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, because you had to tell this whole story in only five minutes, right?

Eigo Kudo: I figure the three of us will have something and Professor Gardiner will cover all of the technical things, how much we lost and so on. So I didn't 00:52:00have to go too much in detail. I just told them my father was a import-export businessman and he had a great life going until the war started and the government took over, and we lost everything. But that write up on that testimony has a copy of my speech. So you can take a look at it, I can't remember in detail now, but-

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I have it printed, if you want to look?

Eigo Kudo: Oh, that's good.

Katherine Nagasawa: I was curious, did you guys practice delivering it in the days leading up to the actual hearing?

Eigo Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: You didn't?

Eigo Kudo: We didn't practice or anything. I was pretty much involved with many 00:53:00things in Hawaii, and I was very active in the Chamber of Commerce, so I made a lot of speeches, and I made a lot of speeches in Japanese, too. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: How about Seiichi Higashide? Did you help him with his speech? Did you help him to write it?

Eigo Kudo: No. He wanted to write his speech in Japanese, and I just translated it. And that translation is in that book, yeah. And Elsa told her story, you know what it looks like, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. What do you remember from the day of the hearings? What was the room like? Do you remember anything about what it was like to testify and deliver it to the Commission?

Eigo Kudo: Well, I figure if I do a good job, at least I'll get on the record. Whether that's successful for us to get something, was something else. I just wanted to get in and say.. You see, when I was in Hawaii, I was asked to talk about our plight, the Peruvian plight. And so I did, and a American old man stood up. He said, "I don't want you to tell lies. We Americans don't do such things, so deny it!" I said, "I cannot deny it because I went through it. Whether you believe me or not, I don't care. But my speech still goes as is." And I hope he reads that and I testify that, you know. But I don't know who the 00:55:00old man was, anyway. Yeah. So whether they believe me or not, I don't care. I wanted to get on the record, what gets printed by the government, that this is what I said. And I got on there. So I was satisfied with that. Yeah, if it goes through, that's fine. But when Reagan told everybody about what we're getting, the Japanese Americans were getting, so her father said to us, "Why don't we write a letter telling about our plight, and why we're not included?" So we 00:56:00wrote it in English and I explained to Papa Higashide in Japanese. I said, "This is what we're going to say. Do you agree?" He says, "Oh yeah, a hundred percent." So we printed three letters the same. And then she signed one, and I signed one, and my father-in-law signed his, yeah. And we sent it to Ronald Reagan. And boy, he wrote us back right away, and said... What was his name? That guy that Reagan's group know?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, Robert Bratt?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. He told us that, "Mr. Bratt will be going to Hawaii and wants to see you, so please make sure you see him." So when he came, we called him, 00:57:00and said, "We're the one that President Reagan said..." He said, "Oh yeah, oh yeah, Mr. Kudo, I really want to see you, and your wife, and your father-in-law." So, we three of us went to his office and we talked, and he asked me, "How can you prove that when you were given Green Card, that it started from March 21st, the day you came into New Orleans?" So I said, "Oh, my mother has a Green Card." So we took my mother's Green Card and it had started in March 21st, 1944. I said, "That's the day we arrived in New Orleans." And 00:58:00hers [Elsa's] was in July 1, 1944. But we were already citizens, so we didn't have any. So I said to Mr. Bratt, I said, "We have a record in the FBI, and that mentions all our plight and so on." So he said, "Thank you very much." So he contacted FBI and what he got was the same thing as Professor Gardiner had. Yeah. So that proved that we all got our Green Card at that time. It took us 10 years to get it. But I was already in the Army. And all of us got the $20,000 00:59:00also, because of that. And many Peruvians got married to Japanese Americans, and they were told, "You won't be illegal alien if you go across Detroit and come back from Canada and that's the day that you're going to get your Green Card from." So, many did. So they didn't get the $20,000. So when the second group of Peruvians said, "What about us?" And then we also said, "What about those people that went to Japan in August, I mean December of '45?" So they said, "Well, they 01:00:00should be included also." So Elsa, and by that time we had met Grace Shimizu, so she and Elsa went to Japan, and went from city to city where Peruvians were to explain what to do to get the $5,000.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you were the only ones to get the $20,000?

Eigo Kudo: No, no, there were many of us.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Because you were able to prove your entry date?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, the day that we came to the U.S. was, the Green Card said that's when you came, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: What year was this, that you figured this out? Was it 1988 or was it later than that?

Eigo Kudo: Right, 1988.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, because because you wrote to Ronald Reagan.

Eigo Kudo: Right, right.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, I see, okay. Do you know about how many Peruvians were able to get eligibility?

Eigo Kudo: Oh, God.

Elsa Kudo: I don't know.

Eigo Kudo: I don't know either.

Katherine Nagasawa: Would you say the majority, or only a small number?

Eigo Kudo: Only small, because many people got married to Americans.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah. And they reentered, because that's what they were told. That they could become citizens after.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: So it's just one of those quirks, unfortunately.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. So I have no idea, because we know Peruvians in Chicago because we were there and we were invited to the wedding, so we know that. But like San Francisco or L.A., we don't know who got married when to whom.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Eigo Kudo: So, it's very tough.

Katherine Nagasawa: But the Civil Liberties Act did not include Japanese Latin Americans originally.

Elsa Kudo: No.

Eigo Kudo: Right.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember how you felt when that passed? Were you 01:02:00surprised that it didn't include your community, or did you know that it was not going to be inclusive?

Eigo Kudo: What was that question?

Katherine Nagasawa: When the Civil Liberties Act passed, were you surprised that Japanese Latin Americans were not included in it?

Eigo Kudo: Oh, that we are not included?

Katherine Nagasawa: In the Civil Liberties Act, yeah.

Eigo Kudo: No, because I knew they were -- because I talked to Senator Matsunaga after that thing came out in 1987 or '8, yeah, and Matsunaga told me, he says, "I never considered you at all from the beginning because we didn't think we'll have a chance if you were put in there."

Katherine Nagasawa: So, even though you testified at the Chicago hearings, you didn't expect to be included?

Eigo Kudo: No, no.

Katherine Nagasawa: You just wanted your story to tell.

Eigo Kudo: Right.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see, okay.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Eigo Kudo: I was surprised that we got the $20,000. I still don't understand that.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I didn't realize that either. Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: A few of us got it because we proved that we were here in 1944. When I saw his mother, my mother-in-law, card she carried with her, that's a Green Card, actually. And it says 1944. So I said, "Oh, we may have a chance." So that's why we...

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, wow.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. We took Grandma to meet Mr. Bratt too. I said, "See?"

Katherine Nagasawa: That's amazing.

Elsa Kudo: "We should be included."

Katherine Nagasawa: That's amazing you kept the card too, you still had it.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, that she had it, chanto.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Daiji.

Katherine Nagasawa: Amazing.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what you did with your $20,000?

Eigo Kudo: What?

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what you did with your $20,000?

Eigo Kudo: I put it in a savings account. That's all I did.

Elsa Kudo: Actually, didn't we then use it for the publication of Adios to Tears?

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh!

Elsa Kudo: The first 2000 batch, we did it ourselves. And then...

Eigo Kudo: That's right, yeah.

Elsa Kudo: And then after that, I went to University of Hawaii to see if they would be interested. And they said, "It's so interesting, but we're already no finance," right? And so then... What was that lady's name?

Eigo Kudo: Oh, the University of Washington, yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Press, I went to them. I can't remember her name. It starts with a P. You know she passed away since, but she said, "Yeah, send the book."

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh.

Elsa Kudo: Not the book. What is it called?

Katherine Nagasawa: The manuscript?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, manuscript. And she said, "That is so interesting." So they got interested in it. So they did publish. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I'll have to ask you about that during our interview, because that's interesting. So that's something tangible that came out of the $20,000, yeah. It helped.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. Because we finished it ourselves.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, I forgot about that.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, we sold it. We were everything. The publisher...

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: The sellers, the senders. With each packet, we had to send it out for those interested.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I see.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. She did a great job on that.

Katherine Nagasawa: Incredible.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Incredible. I just want to do a time check. So we've talked for about an hour. I wanted to ask you about the Campaign for Justice and some-

Eigo Kudo: I don't know too much about...

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, would you know more about the campaign?

Elsa Kudo: I know a little bit more, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay.

Elsa Kudo: Because of Grace.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Can I ask you about Mochizuki? Do you remember that?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, I know her.

Elsa Kudo: Carmen, yeah.

Eigo Kudo: I knew her from camp.

Katherine Nagasawa: And the lawsuit?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Yeah, I was just wondering how you felt about the 01:06:00verdict for Mochizuki?

Eigo Kudo: Well...

Katherine Nagasawa: Did you take the $5,000?

Eigo Kudo: Well, see, I wish they all got $20,000. And it's a shame that we are such a small group that they say, "Oh, the $5,000 should be enough." And I think everybody just forget about us. And each time our... I'm one of the last surviving Peruvians, and I'm 89, and it's... Politically, we don't have much power. If we were a large group, you do have political power. So as they say in Japanese, "shikata ga nai." Cannot be helped. So I don't feel bitter or 01:07:00anything. We're not very powerful in politics at all. So no sense in being teed off at anybody because I'm going to be the loser. I serve in the U.S. Army, and I don't feel bitter toward the U.S. I do against Roosevelt, but then he's dead. So my father says, "Let's forget it because he's dead." And I agree. Because no sense in hanging this on until I die. What for? Yeah. So somebody asked me about 01:08:00that, and I just said, "I'll be the loser if I keep blaming somebody." It's time to forget it, after a while.

Katherine Nagasawa: It seems like you don't want to hold onto resentment-

Eigo Kudo: Right.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... into your old age.

Eigo Kudo: No, no sense. Yeah. I'm getting too old for that.

Katherine Nagasawa: True. I was wondering though, obviously there wasn't full justice, right? The $5,000, $20,000, it doesn't fully compensate what your family lost and what you endured. But if you could imagine what true redress would mean for you, what would that look like? What would true redress have looked like, if it had happened?

Eigo Kudo: I don't know how you can put dollars or anything on it. Even $20,000 is an arbitrary number. Yeah. Somewhere you got to say, "Oh, that should be it." I didn't expect any. But I got $20,000, so I was that much ahead. But U.S. probably the only one that would do that, though. I don't see any other country doing that. Did you know that the San Francisco Treaty was signed by Japan, and that included the Japanese nationals who lost assets in other countries, should 01:10:00be reimbursed by Japan? Yeah. And Japan went to Peru and wanted all the records of the Kudo family, and they said, "We have none." Yeah. So they came back and they wrote us, and said, "They have no record of you owning anything." They said they don't have any records.

Katherine Nagasawa: Of your dad's business?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. So we got $100 from Japan. My father received his $100, and I was already working as a CPA. And I asked the tax department, "Do I include that for my father's income?" And they all said, "Boy, this is a great challenge." So 01:11:00they researched, and they came to conclusion that it does not go in to the income.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, $100. Oh my goodness.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. But isn't that something? Peru saying that they don't have any record?

Elsa Kudo: Of course not.

Katherine Nagasawa: Of course they don't, yeah. Oh my.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Can my daughter... Can we have lunch at 12:00?

Katherine Nagasawa: Definitely. What time is it right now?

Elsa Kudo: It's quarter to. So my daughter's going to get something.

Katherine Nagasawa: That'd be great.

Elsa Kudo: So then we'll...

Katherine Nagasawa: We'll have a lunch? Definitely, okay.

Eigo Kudo: Oh, I'm sorry it took so long.

Katherine Nagasawa: No, it's okay! I'm so glad you remember so many details, it's incredible. Your memory is so sharp. I was curious, do you know if your parents were alive for the 1988 Civil Liberties Act, or did they receive any of 01:12:00the settlements?

Eigo Kudo: My father was already dead. He died in 1984. So my mother received the $20,000. Seiichi Higashide and Angelica, her [Elsa's] mother and father, they received the $20,000, and all the brothers and sisters who were old enough to be in camp, they received.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, because we proved that on the FBI, that our Green Card show the day we arrived to New Orleans as a starting date, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Eigo Kudo: I still don't understand that, but that's something else.

Katherine Nagasawa: I think, just a couple final questions. I was wondering, what do you think that the Japanese Latin American redress movement can teach 01:13:00other communities today that are fighting for their own redress or reparations? Are there any lessons?

Eigo Kudo: Oh boy. We are very unique. I don't think anytime else in the U.S. they brought Japanese from other countries to here for the exchange.

Elsa Kudo: And I think-

Eigo Kudo: So-

Elsa Kudo: ... one of the big things is that none of us wanted to come here. We were forced to come. That's the difference. Nobody wanted to come. We all had very comfortable lives.

Eigo Kudo: See, it's like Al Capone, you know? You get the old man and take him 01:14:00out, and we don't know where he's taken. So then they say to the family, "Do you want to go together?" And my mother said, "Yeah, we're going to die together then." That's why we decided. Her [Elsa's] mother was pregnant, almost giving the...

Elsa Kudo: Fifth child.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, fifth child. So she couldn't get onto the March 1st boat when we went, because the baby was born on the 4th, right?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, my sister, little sister.

Eigo Kudo: So they were on the next ship in late June, and then arrived in Crystal City on July 1.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Eigo Kudo: So I don't know if going back even to history, I don't think some of 01:15:00the Japanese from Peru was ever taken a place where you brought from another country to the U.S. So I have never thought about it. But you think back, we're so rare that... Yeah, it's good to know in history that they did happen so that another person will not happen again. It's very doubtful though. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: You're saying almost as a warning, to not repeat the same thing using people and families as exchange, prisoner exchange.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. But I wish our numbers were larger, so that everybody...

Elsa Kudo: That way...

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, but it's too bad. It's less than 2000. Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: 1800 something.

Katherine Nagasawa: Well, I guess maybe when it comes to sharing the story, and making sure that it's in the history books, what do you really want people to take away from the history of your family and what happened to Japanese Latin Americans? For your granddaughters and your grandkids, what do you want them to remember about your story?

Eigo Kudo: Well, at least our grandchildren, we're able to talk to them ourselves. So they're pretty well aware of what happened to us. And especially Amy and Tami, they grew up with us, so they knew about our plight all the way through, since they were small. Tami has more time than Amy, so she is very 01:17:00active in this, to keep it going, yeah. I'm glad-

Katherine Nagasawa: That the next-

Eigo Kudo: ... that they are... Yeah. Because somewhere along the line, I guess I wanted our children to really realize how hard it was for us, yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Our parents, especially. Papa Kudo and my dad. His father was already in his sixties.

Eigo Kudo: Fifties, yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Late fifties, ready to retire, and went... And he comes from a samurai family, so he never did any physical labor. And so he... And yet I 01:18:00admire them, because they're so emotionally and mentally strong. At least both families were not religious, in a sense that some people get strength from their spiritual interests, but they were so strong, nevertheless. And I could only say about the Kudos and my dad, they were so resilient. And even though their lives changed overnight, even as a child, I didn't hear them moaning and complaining. They just went on and did it, whatever needed to be done. And that part, I 01:19:00really admire them. Because you don't know what life's going to bring, but you take it as is, and you do your best. And if they preach anything, it was that. Just do your best, work hard, do your best, study hard, work hard. That was their thing. That's it. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: They had to adapt any-

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: They adapted. And it was hard, especially Papa Kudo. He was a, what is it, ojyouchan jyanakute...

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay.

Eigo Kudo: Botchan.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, botchan. Do you know, botchan?

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-mm.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, someone who comes from a very wealthy family, and the servants do everything, but he does use his mental capacity, but he doesn't learn any physical labor. And my dad, coming from a poor family in Hokkaido, he did a lot 01:20:00of physical labor. But when we saw him, when we went to camp, and they brought the men, the dads, and I noticed his hand because it used to be very smooth and nice, and it was all like tanned and-

Katherine Nagasawa: Wrinkled.

Elsa Kudo: ... wrinkled and hard. And my mother, I remember, oh, held his hand and cried. She says, "Oh, Papa's beautiful hand is all yucky." That's not the word.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. So those kind of things. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: It really probably took a physical toll on everybody.

Elsa Kudo: Yes, exactly. They labored in the Panama Canal Zone. They did all those... What the prisoners do. You know, so, but I don't think I ever heard 01:21:00them complain. They may between husband and wife, but not in front of us, ever. I never heard them. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: One thing I was wondering, and I just want to go back to the Chicago hearings. Did a lot of people in the audience know about the Japanese Latin American story?

Eigo Kudo: No, no.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember people coming up to you afterwards then?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Could you tell me a bit about what the response was by the Chicago community?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah. Well, my sister married Thomas Okamoto, who's a veteran from 442nd. And his family, the third person was Hannah, the sister. She came up 01:22:00and she said, "We didn't realize that you people really suffered that much." I said, "Well, there's no sense in advertising what you suffered, but we did. But you just never heard our complaint." But several others that I knew were there. They said, "Oh, we didn't know that you went through such an ordeal," and so on. But, you know, it's hard. You get to know Japanese Americans, and I was with a 01:23:00Japanese American group of boys. I went to Hyde Park High School and all of us were in Hyde Park. There were 18 of us and we had a pretty good baseball team, we had a pretty good basketball team. And they knew I was born in Peru and my Japanese was almost perfect. So everybody knew that, and our friends, but I never mentioned anything about our hardship and so on. So they never knew.

Elsa Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: So it wasn't until the hearings in Chicago that the story was really told more fully?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah. And several of my friends called me in Hawaii and said, "I heard you spoke at the hearing," and so on, and, "I hope you people receive whatever [Japanese] Americans get too." Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha.

Eigo Kudo: I didn't expect any, but Mr. Bratt brought that up, and that's how we got it.

Elsa Kudo: But at the hearing in Chicago, there were all the newspaper people and radio. Even the Spanish radio people came, so they put out the news. So I think more people read about it, but I'm sure it wasn't front page.

Eigo Kudo: I remember the next day, Sun-Times had, "Japanese from Peru were kidnapped."

Elsa Kudo: But not on the front page, was it?

Eigo Kudo: No, no, no. About the fifth or sixth.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Eigo Kudo: But it was interesting. But see, the hearing, ours was only half an hour, but we got on the news.

Elsa Kudo: That was good.

Katherine Nagasawa: Was Chicago the only hearing that had Japanese Latin Americans testify?

Eigo Kudo: No, New York had Murono Seiji.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, one person?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Murono and then San Francisco?

Eigo Kudo: No.

Elsa Kudo: No, nobody.

Eigo Kudo: Nobody. L.A., nobody, and Seattle, nobody. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Sou yo ne... Chicago. But it was already, all the slots were taken by Japanese Americans. So that's why we had to go all the way to Chicago from Hawaii.

Eigo Kudo: And that was a no first, until her brother talked to-

Elsa Kudo: My brother's friend was kind of in charge. I forget her name. I had her friend name. She came to Hawaii, so we dined together. Very nice lady. I can't think of her name right now. Yeah, so she helped us.

Katherine Nagasawa: Chiye Tomihiro?

Elsa Kudo: Yes. That's it, thank you. Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: Because she organized the list of witnesses.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, okay. Yeah, she was so nice, and so willing to try to help us, so she gave us a slot.

Eigo Kudo: Boy, when Carlos told us about the 15 minutes for three people, I thought, "Wow, at least we made it."

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, because he flew in that morning. He had overtime work.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Eigo Kudo: But I tell you, when you're young, you do all kinds of things that's 01:27:00wild to...

Elsa Kudo: If you would do it now, you'd be--

Katherine Nagasawa: You had the energy back then.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah!

Eigo Kudo: Now I probably won't be able to do it at all.

Elsa Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: Good that they captured it while you were still young.

Elsa Kudo: Yes, still young.

Katherine Nagasawa: I think these were the full list of questions. Do you have any final thoughts or reflections before we close the video?

Eigo Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: You good?

Eigo Kudo: That's it.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Thank you so much for your-

Eigo Kudo: Oh, you're very welcome. I hope you're successful.

Katherine Nagasawa: Thank you.