Kudo, Elsa (11/26/2022)

Elsa Kudo: ... and I don't know how much I could add to this.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's okay. I think I wanted to ask you about the Campaign for Justice.

Elsa Kudo: No, I don't know too much.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's okay.

Elsa Kudo: Ask Grace.

Katherine Nagasawa: We'll do what we can and there's no pressure. Okay. I'll try this one more time. Today is November 26th, 2022, and this oral history is being recorded at 301 Adobe Estates Drive in Vista, California. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa, and the interviewee is Elsa Kudo. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American Redress Movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So could you start by telling me, when did you first learn about the Redress Movement? Do you remember what you thought about the concept of redress?

Elsa Kudo: Those are loaded questions, but I think it might have been in 00:01:00Chicago. And all I remember right now is Bill Hohri, who used to have a paper, small paper, that he used to publish. I read his articles, which were well written and to the point, and he was such a wonderful person and activist. So probably partially that. And then of course, my dad, who used to read Japanese and English papers regarding anything Japanese Americans, Japanese Peruvians, whatever. And so he was quite knowledgeable about such things, and he would give 00:02:00us information that he learned about the redress.

Katherine Nagasawa: And what did you think about the idea of Japanese people asking for redress for their incarceration during the war?

Elsa Kudo: I personally thought that was the right thing to do, and I thought that it's a way to present the Japanese Americans and what happened to them to the general public, American public, who knew very little or nothing. So it was kind of a way for people to be informed and to have an education in American 00:03:00history that they were not aware of.

Katherine Nagasawa: Especially for something like Japanese Latin American incarceration, which even fewer people knew about.

Elsa Kudo: Yes, absolutely. And with that, of course, hardly, probably no one outside our little group knew about our case, the Japanese Latin Americans. So it was good that the JAs started doing something about their horrendous experience in the camps or being taken from their homes. They've lived all their lives and then put behind barbed wires with guards watching over them with their guns, not pointing outside the fence, but towards, inside the fence. And so that 00:04:00to me is scary that it should happen in our country.

Katherine Nagasawa: Did you feel included in the movement as a Japanese Latin American when you were hearing about it in the newspapers or talking to Bill Hohri?

Elsa Kudo: When the Japanese Americans started to fight for redress, we were not included. And so that part was a bit painful. But on the other hand, they were trying their best to be compensated for all the losses, not only emotional, but financial, reputation wise, everything that they had lost just because they had the faces of the enemy at that time.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you understood why or-

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yes, of course. Yes, I understood why they were fighting for their redress. And of course so many of them did not know about the Latin Japanese being incarcerated. So our fight for redress was a way to also kind of make information available to those Japanese Americans who hardly knew anything that was going on with the Japanese Latin Americans. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I understand that you ended up testifying in Chicago in 1981. Can you tell me about the process of getting involved in those hearings?

Elsa Kudo: It's so long ago, but it was my brother, Carlos, who kind of started 00:06:00the ball rolling because he knew Ms. Nakahiro.

Katherine Nagasawa: Tomihiro.

Elsa Kudo: Tomihiro because they belonged to the, I believe it was a skiing club, and she was very active, and so he talked with her. And so when she came to Hawaii, we had a chance to meet, and she was very, very kind and also wanted to be of help.

Katherine Nagasawa: And so when Chiye said the Japanese Latin Americans could testify, did you immediately know that you personally wanted to testify, or how did you decide who from the community was going to present?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, well she was so nice that she would include us. I don't know who 00:07:00it would be, but probably our family. I think we did inquire about the various places where these hearings were held, and we were told all the slots were closed. But thanks to Tomihiro-san, we were able to get a couple of slots in Chicago where we did fly to do our little talk.

Katherine Nagasawa: How did you get your dad, Seiichi Higashide, involved in the hearings, and also how did you help him prepare his testimony?

Elsa Kudo: Well, I think my dad, of all of us, was the most in tune about the 00:08:00redress, about the hearing. He knew more than we did, and he encouraged us to be part of it. He wrote his talks in Japanese, which then my husband would translate in English, and that's how we did it at the hearing, where he spoke in his Japanese and my husband translated in English.

Katherine Nagasawa: For you, what was your thought process when crafting and drafting your testimony? What kind of message did you want to communicate to the commission?

Elsa Kudo: Well, basically to give the information that this thing happened under the, shall I say, auspices of the U.S.A. And so few people knew about our case that it was a way to educate the public about the Latin Japanese being 00:09:00incarcerated in this country where they did not know, where they did not want to come. So many people want to come here, but that time we didn't want to come to the U.S. Every Latin Japanese were doing very well there. They had businesses, homes, and so forth, even household help. So no one really was interested in coming to the U.S. at that time. But all of a sudden, our fathers were first taken to places unknown. And then many months later, we find out that our fathers were in Panama Canal zone. And on one of his telegrams, he said, "No 00:10:00matter what happens now, get rid of the businesses," meaning sell it. Because when he was taken, he had told my mother, "No matter what, you keep the business because you'll supply the children and yourself food and clothing and a roof over your head." And now all of a sudden he's saying, "Sell everything and come no matter what may come. We may die together, but at least we'll be together." And so that's when my mother, who was still quite young, maybe in her mid-to-late twenties, and she was already going to have the fifth child. She was married at 18 or something. And so she did the best she could. And then we got 00:11:00on the ship to go to meet dad.

Katherine Nagasawa: Getting tired.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to ask you about your testimony. I was watching it, and I noticed you got kind of choked up when you were talking about-

Elsa Kudo: My mother.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... the experience of your mother. Can you tell me about that moment and why was it particularly emotional for you to talk about that?

Elsa Kudo: Right. My mother -- when my dad was taken -- she was pregnant with my little sister, Martha. And when she was born, she was the smallest baby. And my mom thought she might not survive because also when she would nurse, she nursed all of us at least six months. But she had a hard time with the last child, with 00:12:00Martha, the fifth child. And when she tried to nurse, she said it hurt so much and blood came instead of milk. That's how traumatic it was, must have been for her. So it was a dramatically awful time for my mother who was young with five children now. And then my grandparents, who came from smaller town in Peru to live with us in this second store. So they had their own independence. And my young auntie, a teenager of 17 or so. So at least my grandparents were there. So they were of some emotional help to my mother, plus with us little grandchildren.

Katherine Nagasawa: Why was it important for you to include that anecdote in your testimony about the trauma that your mom experienced? Why did you want to include that detail?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, because I have never heard of anyone else having such a traumatic experience nursing a baby. Maybe there are, I don't know. But at that time, I had never heard of it. At this time, I never have heard of it where blood would come out of one's breast that she was trying to feed her baby. That's why.

Katherine Nagasawa: And you talked about some other difficult experiences where you had to be sprayed with DDT as well. Can you talk about including that detail, and why was that important to include as well?

Elsa Kudo: Well, all of us were told to disrobe completely, and it was a, as I 00:14:00recall, and remember, I was just about what, seven or eight, but then they sprayed us from above. I think something came rolling down, I can't remember exactly. And these DDT was sprayed on us from head to toe. And now of course, that's poison. Well, at that time, we didn't know. So yeah, so that was not as scary as later we learned that it could really harm us, but it was not pleasant to be naked in front of everybody. But I thank my age, where I felt for my auntie who was a teenager and my sister-in-law who was a teenager, all those in 00:15:00their teens who may have had periods or whatever, and they had to be completely naked in front of everybody, and you know how shy we girls become especially during that time period of time. So yeah, I felt ... I could picture it and I wanted others to see it, to picture in their minds how it would've been if their daughter or their daughter herself felt this and how she would react. It was an awful time for young girls. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I remember my great auntie saying something similar where she was 16 in camp and it was really hard for her to have to use the showers because there was no privacy.

Elsa Kudo: No, there's no curtain even. That's right. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: For you, what was the experience like of delivering this story in front of a crowd of hundreds in front of this commission? Do you remember what was going through your mind, how it felt in your body to do that?

Elsa Kudo: I think it's something that I had to do for our group of people, and it was very traumatic, but I had to do it. And so I remember I choked up on something, but the judges, the one who was especially kind was a Supreme Court justice. I don't know if he was at that time, maybe -- Goldberg. He was really very kind, as I could say. Yeah. And all the other people too were nice, but he was verbally kind. He says, "Would you like to stop or would you like to?" I 00:17:00said, "No, I want to go on." "So someone give her water." Yeah, he was that kind of person.

Katherine Nagasawa: How did it feel afterwards, having said all of your testimony? How did it feel to get that off your chest?

Elsa Kudo: It felt somewhat relieved, but hoping that it would help our group of people and the public in general to know that this was this other little case of incarceration -- brought from a foreign country to this country to be incarcerated in the barbed wired fence concentration camp of Texas, which most Americans do not know, do not want to know. And if they learn about it, they'd 00:18:00think we're lying, some of them, because that's what we were called, liars, in one of my husband's speeches. So it felt a sense of relief a little bit, and just the hope that maybe something good will come out of this.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember the reactions of other Japanese Americans in the room who came up to you afterwards or the kind of comments that you got in the days following?

Elsa Kudo: I think almost, well, those who did come up were very sympathetic, and they said, "We didn't know that you people were also in camp and brought from another country." So they learned a lot too. Yeah. And all the reporters from all the papers in Chicago -- Tribune, Sun-Times, what was it, Herald, I 00:19:00think, and the radios and television people were there. But among the reporter, this is kind of a side story, but among one of the reporter was a female lady, a female. When she tried to interview me, I said, "You know, I worked for you one time." She and her husband and two children lived on the Gold Coast of Chicago near Lincoln Park in a beautiful, a whole flat for just four people, where we were crowded in Sedgwick and Division, we only had one and a half rooms for seven people. I worked there when I saw an ad in our University of Illinois at 00:20:00the [Navy] Pier, someone seeking help to take care of two children, and they would give room and board. So I said, "Oh, I'm going to school, and our house is so crowded with all my other siblings. I have no place to study except the dining table," which was used for everything else. So I said, "Maybe this is a good way. I have my own room next to the kitchen, behind the kitchen, and all I have to do is take care of two little ones, which I loved anyway." I love children. And so when I went to interview, right away they said, "When can you start?" And so Mr. and Mrs. Rutherford, that was her name. So I lived there for I don't know how long, maybe six months, maybe less. I don't remember. But the children were very sweet, still nursery school age and a baby. But Mr. 00:21:00Rutherford was a very kind person. So I really liked him and respected him.

Katherine Nagasawa: And so the person you saw at the hearings that interviewed you was his wife?

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: Wow.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. And that was really strange. I said, "You know, I took care of your children for a time." And she was just shocked. She couldn't say anything, just her mouth open. But she was one of the reporters.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what she asked you about during the interview, or did she have any reaction to your story when she heard it?

Elsa Kudo: I don't recall because there were so many other reporters came. All of a sudden I had all these people saying whatever questions they had. So I don't remember individually at all. But yeah, so that was a very unusual, unique 00:22:00experience I never expected.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, that piece of your past.

Elsa Kudo: Yes, yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: I'm curious who else was in the audience from the JLA community. Do you remember?

Elsa Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: Did your brother go there?

Elsa Kudo: Oh yeah. Of course. All my family who could go were there -- my brother, his wife, his in-laws. Who else? And probably a few others that I can't name right now.

Katherine Nagasawa: The Shibayamas?

Elsa Kudo: I don't know if the Shibayamas were there because I think they had already moved. I don't recall that. But I know my brother, because I stayed with 00:23:00my brother too, and my sister and her husband, Eigo's older brother. Yeah. So they were there. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Did you follow the Redress Movement between the 1981 hearings and then the Civil Liberties Act in 1988? That's seven years of legislative fights. Did you remember following it or even following what NCJAR was doing, Bill Hohri's lawsuit?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah. Right. Yes, I did. Yeah, because I used to contribute to his paper that he used to write. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you would donate and then receive a monthly newsletter?

Elsa Kudo: Yes. Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you kept up with them?

Elsa Kudo: Yes, I did.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember how you felt when the Civil Liberties Act was passed in 1988?

Elsa Kudo: I don't remember per se, but I know that to me, that was a kind of 00:24:00hallelujah day, that somebody's listening and somebody's trying to do something good out of this. So I did like Reagan then.

Katherine Nagasawa: Were you at all surprised that Japanese Latin Americans were not included in the legislation, or did you expect that?

Elsa Kudo: I was kind of saddened by it, but maybe it was an expectation because the JAs were trying so hard to get it for their group. And probably by adding another group, they might have felt strongly that it's too much of a burden for the government to include another group of people, and who knows who may come after that, that kind of ... That was just my thought. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: So when did the idea for the Mochizuki lawsuit and the Campaign for Justice start? Do you remember who those people were that were working on it and what your involvement was in it?

Elsa Kudo: I don't think we were involved that much, but it was Grace and the Mochizuki sisters and those on the West Coast. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Was it Bay Area or L.A. or both?

Elsa Kudo: It may have been both. I don't know. Yeah, for sure.

Katherine Nagasawa: So that's Grace Shimizu.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: And then what were the names of the Mochizukis?

Elsa Kudo: Carmen Mochizuki and Nagao, I think she called herself Alice by then, Alice. But I knew Carmen only because her brother was a Japanese school teacher in camp in Crystal City, Texas. So I didn't really know them one-to-one.

Katherine Nagasawa: When did you get to know Grace Shimizu?

Elsa Kudo: Oh my gosh. I don't remember how we met. I know that it was in San Francisco area. One of the talks, her father was then still living, so she had brought her dad in, and I took my dad. So they were, of course, they knew each other from camp, so they were chatting away, remembering old times. I can't remember exactly where. But since then, we have traveled together to Japan to tell them what was happening with the redress activities. And she needed me to help her with Japanese. Yep.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you helped translate the message?

Elsa Kudo: Yes, and to tell the Japanese people, "This is Grace Shimizu. She's working hard for all of us, and that includes you in Japan," you know. That type of thing.

Katherine Nagasawa: And these are Japanese Peruvians or Japanese Latin Americans-

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... who went back to Japan?

Elsa Kudo: So they were very, very grateful and thankful and invited us, especially in the Kyushu area, invited us to stay in some ryokan and treated us to good food. They were very welcoming.

Katherine Nagasawa: In what other ways were you involved in the campaign for redress, besides translating and visiting Japan?

Elsa Kudo: Being interviewed on radio probably was one, going around making talks wherever. I don't know what else. Letting people know what was happening 00:28:00in wherever I wrote letters -- to Japan or Peru or wherever Peruvian people were located.

Katherine Nagasawa: So mostly sharing your story.

Elsa Kudo: Yes, but my dad was very good about that. He was a writer.

Katherine Nagasawa: So he also worked with Grace on Campaign for Redress?

Elsa Kudo: Not directly because of language.

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Elsa Kudo: If he did anything like that and he wanted to do, then I would have to get in because of the language problem. But he did go to San Francisco, though, and L.A., and he spoke at the Japanese American Museum and the national, what was it, National Historical Society, I think? Yeah, wherever we were 00:29:00invited. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember the settlement for Mochizuki, the apology letter, and the $5,000?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, a little bit. That I recall.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember how you felt when that settlement came up? Did you feel it was enough? How did you-

Elsa Kudo: I was glad about the apology, but I didn't think financially, monetarily, it was not fair. It was not fair to them and not fair to the rest of the Peruvian internees. So yeah. So that part financially was not good. And they lost everything. Imagine if you had businesses and now you had only a suitcase full of clothes, and only what, 50 some pounds of it. I mean, it's hard to 00:30:00imagine such a thing, but this is what happened to those people. They lost everything. Bank account, money saved wherever hidden. I mean, it was taken. No telephone, no cameras, nothing. So it's like you wouldn't have anything here. Everything would be taken away, especially cameras. So yeah, we don't have, we have very little pictures of those times. The only ones in camp were the school picture, whole group of children with the teachers. That's about it. We have no pictures, and I wish we somehow, somebody could have snuck and take those pictures of the housing, of the food, of the schools, whatever, the camp fences, 00:31:00the guard house, that it was real. So, yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. It's not just the monetary loss, it seems like memory was lost.

Elsa Kudo: Memory. Oh, yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: And loss of culture.

Elsa Kudo: Exactly.

Katherine Nagasawa: And kind of as we were talking about with Eigo, it's also the decade after camp where your status was unclear. Can you talk about the toll that took on you and your friends?

Elsa Kudo: Yes. I was young, but looking back now as an adult, having punched in, so to speak, as "illegal aliens" was a very trying experience that we suffered, because jobs, money-wise, wages were at the lowest. Taxes were at the highest. Hardly anything left. We had no bank account, because no need to open 00:32:00one. We couldn't put any money in it. So for our parents with five children, I said, "Oh my gosh, poor Mom and Dad." At least we were little, so we didn't know. As long as your parents are together, reasonably happy, you don't miss much. At least you have breakfast, lunch, and dinner. No matter how humble it was food, and you had your parents there. So as a young children, I'm thankful that we were little, and my mother being so resourceful, she would bleach the ... I don't know if you know this, but long time ago, they did have, I remember, paper diaper, but it was rather rough. Not the nice ones these days. And it was 00:33:00expensive, so she never had those. But other little babies had, other mothers. But she made out of flannel sheets, she would bleach it, and she would cut it up and then make it into diapers. And after the baby no longer needed the diaper, then she would bleach that again, and she would make the bodices of my and my sister's clothing. So she was so resourceful, and she made her own patterns, and out of very little material she would somehow make decent looking dresses for us.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's incredible that you were talking before, just the kind of strength that requires emotionally for your parents.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you ever remember talking more candidly with your parents about what that experience was like for them when you were an adult?

Elsa Kudo: No. No, I wish I had. Looking back, I said, "Oh, I missed asking them so many questions. After they're gone it's too late already. But I remember in Seabrook, we had three little, I don't know, what do you call it, cabins put together with a side opening so there were no doors. And my parents' room was the third one. The second one was ours, the children, bunk bed and I think two single bed, not the kind that we have now with thick mattresses, but those springy, what are those called?

Katherine Nagasawa: Box spring?

Elsa Kudo: Not even box spring. Just the simplest of beds with just wire and 00:35:00then a thin mattress. Yeah, that kind. But we were kids, so it didn't hurt us too much. But what did I start to say? So that was a middle room with one, two, three, four children. And she had purchased what they call "bacinica" in Spanish. What is it in English? Pot, a potty pot.

Katherine Nagasawa: A chamber pot.

Elsa Kudo: Huh?

Katherine Nagasawa: A chamber pot.

Elsa Kudo: Chamber pot. Yeah. Yeah. So we didn't have to go outside to go to the bathroom, which was many yards away. And the paths were all muddy, especially if it rained or snow, whatever. So they bought a little chamber pot that we used in the room if we needed to. And then the first room, first cabin, was the table 00:36:00with wooden chairs and a tiny kitchen. They finally put water. Until then, we had to go all the way and carry it in buckets, and then a big pot belly stove for coal. And that was our first room. Second room, children's bedroom and third was my parents with half of it for all our junk, necessary thing, including, which I, at that time, I didn't know, was a big bag of sanitary napkins. And I thought they were used, my mother used it to make pads for the clothing. I didn't know that-

Katherine Nagasawa: The shoulder pads.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's funny.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Even though you weren't able to talk to your parents about 00:37:00their experiences directly, do you remember how they felt about redress when the Civil Liberties Act passed?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, my dad was one of the first to say, "Good, we have to be there." He was very conscientious about that. So he's a, I would say the starter, the leader, the pooler for all of us Peruvians. He said, "No, we have to get in there with the Japanese Americans." Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: But when the Civil Liberties Act passed, do you remember what his reaction was?

Elsa Kudo: He was very happy, of course. I don't know if we had any real talk about it. He probably, of course, he was extremely happy. But he said, "We just have to keep fighting for the Peruvians."

Katherine Nagasawa: When did he decide to write his book, and how did you get involved?

Elsa Kudo: Well, he was getting older now, and we said, "Daddy, you have to write about your history, because we don't know other than what we have seen, but we don't know about your background. Please sit down and write it." So he started to do that. Yeah. So little by little, he said, "You know, when I start to write all these things, like a dream comes forth and I remember little things that happened, and some fun things," like going with his dad to cut down trees that they were allowed to cut down. There were certain trees they could not, but the government had stamped on it, and so they would cut down for lumber and other things. And so he said those were the happiest memories that he and his dad had, because they would go together. I guess it must have been like on a 00:39:00horse-driven cart. Yeah. Yes. And he said he remembers how the snow would shine on the trees and the ground and how it would glisten. And he said, "I remember that was happy time for me and my dad."

Katherine Nagasawa: Like kira-kira?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: I remember reading about that in his book. He said that it was so cold though.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: They were just always freezing.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. It was very cold. They didn't have the warm thermal clothes that we have.

Katherine Nagasawa: I know that's hard on a little kid-

Elsa Kudo: Oh yeah. I know.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... to be out all day.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Could you explain to me how you guys were able to eventually get the $20,000 and how you used that for your dad's book?

Elsa Kudo: Of course we kept up with the help of my dad, who read everything 00:40:00English. He couldn't speak very well, but he learned a lot of English studying himself and in night school. So he would read both English and Japanese publications, and he would encourage us to do things and go talk to Senator Inouye or whoever, do that kind of thing. And what else? Attend all the meetings possible, because it might help someone in our group. Is that what you mean? Those kind of things?

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. But wasn't it a specific letter that you wrote to Reagan that got you a meeting with-

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, I think, I don't know if it's in the book. I don't remember.

Katherine Nagasawa: Was it Bratt or?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Robert Bratt was the representative from Washington who came to 00:41:00Hawaii a few times. And so I made sure that the Peruvians, that's us, the Kudos, Higashides, and the Yamasatos family. I said, "As much as possible, be there." Because if we're just names and numbers, it's not easy for him to remember. But if we meet him, shake his hand and say, "We are from Peru, the ones the U.S. took by force," then he will remember more. So they all cooperated, the Yamasato family, with obaachan and the son, Maurice, was an architect there, quite famous. And then his sister, Rosa Yomogida, Maurice's wife, who is Hawaiian American, and us, and my mother, grandma Kudo, Eigo, as many people as could 00:42:00come, just so that we have a face for Mr. Bratt to say, "Oh, yeah, those are the Peruvian people." Yeah. So we did do that.

Katherine Nagasawa: And can you talk about how you had to prove to him that you had an entry into the U.S.?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah. And I said, "How can we qualify for the redress?"

Katherine Nagasawa: This is for the Civil Liberties Act?

Elsa Kudo: Yes, yes. He said, "Well, for one thing, if you could find some record of the entry and the date may easily qualify you." And that was 1944. And then I remember Mama Kudo's green card said 1944. I remember seeing it in her 00:43:00wallet, which she carried because I'm the one that was free to drive them around to doctors and dentists and opticians and anything, shopping. So I said, "Grandma, do you still have that card?" She said, "oh motteru yo." And so that's how we got it.

Katherine Nagasawa: And can you tell me how you used that $20,000 to support your dad's book?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah. So my husband Eigo and I of course by now had received $40,000, which we then spent on the printing publication, et cetera, of my dad's book, "Adios to Tears," which we had it published in Hawaii. And because we did it ourselves, it was very expensive. But we said, "That's okay. At least people 00:44:00will know about it and my father's name will be known, and people will know about 'Adios to Tears,' et cetera." And so then I was sweating, so to speak, because I saw these boxes come into the hallway of our house in Aina Haina. And I said, "Oh my gosh, what if I don't sell but a few? I have all these boxes full of books. What do I do with them?" But thank goodness my husband helped to make prints out for order sheets. And then we'll "send your money if you like it, and we'll send you back a book or two or three," whatever. And so people did respond to that. So luckily we were able to sell most. And then what happened was, let's 00:45:00see. Oh, some people kept asking, "How can we get more books?" This is from the mainland people. So I said, "Oh my gosh. It was already hardly any left." That's when I started to call universities, like first U of H, the closest. They said, "No, we're already tied up with so many immigrant stories. We don't need another one." I said, "But ours is different." She said, "Nevertheless." But they were very nice. They gave me places I might get in touch with. So that's how I went to the mainland and University of Washington people finally said, "Yeah, we'd 00:46:00like to do it." And that's taking a chance for them, so I really felt very thankful and appreciative that they would take such a big chance because they're not rich, rich schools. They're just a state school, right? But the publisher, what was her name? I can't think of it right now, but she was very instrumental in getting this done.

Katherine Nagasawa: I remember last time we talked, you mentioned that it was Bill Hohri who told you to add an index.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: How did he get involved with the book? Or did you just run a copy by him?

Elsa Kudo: I think I sent him a draft, maybe. Then he said to Michi Weglyn also, and they both said, "Elsa, you must have an index. You must have, because scholars will read this book, and they don't want to go page by page, because 00:47:00they're there to research and study. So you need to do an index." And yeah, that was another thing. I said, "An index for my dad's book? That's another time and cost." He says, "But Elsa, we urge you to do it. You must do it." So I did. So I went all over the place asking for, "Would you," and one was University of Illinois indexer. She said, "Elsa, your book sounds wonderful. I would love to do it, but I have two more to do, indexing. But I can recommend someone from," I don't know, I think it was Indiana. "Send her the book and see. She's my like, a what assistant or like a disciple, what is that called? Like a student.

Katherine Nagasawa: Somebody like a mentee or mentor? Apprentice?

Elsa Kudo: Apprentice. Yeah. Opposite of mentor. She was a mentor. She said, 00:48:00"She might be able to do it. I think she is finishing up on a book. So she gave me the address and whatever." I talked to her and she said, "Oh, wow. That sounds really interesting. I'm finishing one up, so why don't you send me, and then I'll see what I could do?" And then she did. So I was very fortunate for these kind people who gave me good advice. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's a lot of work to self-publish.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: And to translate and-

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, it was, yeah. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I'm curious about the way that the Campaign for Justice has evolved over time, because in the 2000s, it went to the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights. Did you follow that proceeding? You know where, I think it was the Shibayama brothers were the center?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Kind of. Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: Did you attend the 2017 hearing in D.C.?

Elsa Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: It was a public hearing. Okay. That would've been Grace Shimizu?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay.

Elsa Kudo: I don't think I did. I mean, I have gone to Washington too, but I don't know if it ... no, it was for some other reasons.

Katherine Nagasawa: You were on the Civil Liberties Public Education Fund Committee.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Can you talk about that and what your role was on it? That was in the late eighties and early nineties.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, right. What can I say? We had a wonderful leader and lawyer, what's his name? Gosh I could see-

Katherine Nagasawa: Hirabayashi?

Elsa Kudo: No.

Katherine Nagasawa: Matsui?

Elsa Kudo: No, no, no. Nandatta, namae?

Eigo Kudo: Dare?

Elsa Kudo: Ano, lawyer. Hawaii. We're getting too old to remember.

Speaker 3: Oh gosh.

Elsa Kudo: He's well known and he's very quite an activist in San Francisco. You know him.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, he fought for us. Yeah. Peruvians.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Because Korematsu.

Elsa Kudo: No, no. I think he represented them probably. He and-

Katherine Nagasawa: Mineta?

Elsa Kudo: Dale Minami.

Katherine Nagasawa: Minami.

Elsa Kudo: Minami, yeah, yeah. So he was the leader. I mean, we chose him because he's so, he was a leader. He could do almost anything. I said, "You know what, Dale? You don't need a secretary. You could do the whole thing yourself." He said, "Oh, no." Yeah. But he was a very capable, charismatic person to lead. 00:51:00We kind of chose him to be the leader. But we had Father Drinan who passed away, he was able to come from Washington to San Francisco. I think we only saw him maybe at the most twice. And then he dropped out, sort of. Then we had Leo Goto, a businessman who owned a restaurant, restaurateur, in Denver, Colorado. So there were all kinds of people. I'm just a housewife. People like Dale Minami and who else? Mr. Kuwayama, a second World War II hero. He passed away too. And Leo Goto. Let's see. And Professor Naka-

Eigo Kudo: Talking about the-

Elsa Kudo: Professor. Yeah. He was from California. Professor, oh, what's his name? Nakasone jyanai? Nakao... Nakano? Nakano. That doesn't sound quite right. But anyway, so they were all part of the group. I was the least, I felt like I don't belong here. I'm just a housewife. But they would, I think, halfway tease me, say, "You bring all the practical reasons why you're here." I give them some little suggestions. "Oh, that's a good thing. We didn't think about that." They were just so sweet. And so, yeah. So we got things done. We were from everywhere 00:53:00with different backgrounds and stuff. But we all got along because I think our goals were the same. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: And what was the type of work you were doing on that board?

Elsa Kudo: Oh, gosh. One was to hire people who knew about funding because none of us are in the funding business. So how do you go about it? So we did hire someone named Hatta. Do you know Hatta-san? Lady. So she was one of those hired, I think there were a couple of them. And then to read all the projects, there were over, I don't know, hundreds. And you had to choose, because we only had $5 million. We should have had $50 million, but there was no money left but a measly -- it sounds like a lot, but it isn't when you have all these wonderful 00:54:00projects who need help. And so I think it was $5 million. And so anyway, so these people who knew about how to handle projects and stuff, we would go over slightly to grants, like some on education, some of the entertainment like show biz, but with the internment story and some art project and so forth. And so then we gave someone a lot of money, but the most that we gave per block was like $100,000. $100,000, $100,000, $50,000, $20,000, $5,000, $25, like that, until all of it was spent to help these projects become a reality.

Katherine Nagasawa: How many years did that fund?

Elsa Kudo: I think it was about two years, or two and a half years, about.

Katherine Nagasawa: Did you end up seeing some of the projects to fruition, like the ones that you had approved? Did you see the final...?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, I think we did in some of the publication. Oh, yeah. Some of the money was used to republish that book.

Katherine Nagasawa: Years of Infamy?

Elsa Kudo: Years-

Katherine Nagasawa: Farewell to Manzanar?

Elsa Kudo: No, not years. Years ...

Katherine Nagasawa: Of Infamy by Michi?

Elsa Kudo: No. The one done by the government.

Katherine Nagasawa: Personal Justice Denied.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. Yes. So we spent a lot of money on that one so people could have it easily. I think it was given out free. I'm not quite sure, yeah. We did see those kind of fruition. Yeah. So it was money well spent, but we could have used 00:56:00$50 instead of just $5.

Katherine Nagasawa: Give me one second. I'm just going to get a new battery.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, okay. I think it's there. This one? Oh.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, yeah. I just have a new charge.

Elsa Kudo: Oh. Oh.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's pretty incredible to be part of the educational grant.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. Yes, it was. Especially because I'm a former school teacher. It meant a lot.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, to be in education arm a bit, I think it's very huge.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. A few final questions. Let's just refocus. Okay. For 00:57:00the audio, I'm just going to clap to let you know that we have a new battery. Let's see. I think as we're talking about the education fund as one of the outcomes of redress, I'm curious for you, what do you think is the biggest legacy of the redress movement? One being the public education projects that came out of it. There was the actual monetary compensation, there was the apology. There were also the hearings where you both testified.

Elsa Kudo: And the books.

Katherine Nagasawa: And the books.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: What do you think has had the biggest impact, or is the biggest legacy of it?

Elsa Kudo: I'm not sure. I think we'll probably know the answer to your question maybe few years down the road yet. Things are slow to move, but one day we'll 00:58:00know it. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I'm also curious for you, what would true redress mean for you and your family? If you were to think of what would actually make up for what you lost, what you endured, what would true justice look like? Or is it even possible?

Elsa Kudo: I don't think it's possible to ever "repay" -- in quotes -- whatever our parents lost. I mean, how do you repay someone who's worked, like in Eigo's case, his parents were in business, what, 30, 40 years? I mean, how do you do that? You can't. You can't ever repay it and say, "Here's $100,000." Because 00:59:00there's all these emotional, psychological, and much hardship that they went through, especially the older people. We were young and children so as long as our parents were together, we were okay. But it's the older first generation or second generation older people. Yeah. I cannot answer for them. I think it was awful for them.

Katherine Nagasawa: I know that Grace Shimizu is still fighting for redress for Japanese Latin Americans in the international courts. What is your greatest hope for what will come out of that? What would you like to see happen?

Elsa Kudo: If it could be equal, at least equalized to the Japanese American 01:00:00redress, would be good, would be very good. But the other is that the whole world will know that you mustn't do this to another group of people. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: So it's not just the compensation for you.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: It's also the-

Elsa Kudo: The lesson-

Katherine Nagasawa: The lesson.

Elsa Kudo: ... that we should learn. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I know that your daughter, especially Tami, has been kind of carrying the torch and you passed the torch to her. What is it like for you to pass it to the next generation to continue this fight?

Elsa Kudo: Well, all I can say is unless our offspring or anyone in the group carries on their own will, we cannot force them. They all have to want to do it. 01:01:00And maybe it's because we always talk with the children, that our kids are very much in tune, and they want to do as much as they can to help. I don't know how other families deal with this, but in our family, we do talk about things, many things, fun things, too. And we do stuff together. We travel together, eat together, play together, like that. So I think that makes a lot of difference in how a child perceives to want to do things. I mean, that's my own feelings.

Katherine Nagasawa: So you aren't necessarily telling your daughters that they need to be involved?

Elsa Kudo: No. Never.

Katherine Nagasawa: You hope that they will.

Elsa Kudo: I have never said it. She has never said it. They just did it. So I 01:02:00think it's because we always included them in things, in everything. Eating, traveling, playing cards, joking around, cooking around, you know, everything. So I think that's, to me, that's the thing. Yeah. We never said, "Oh, you got to do this. You got to help this." No, they just volunteer.

Katherine Nagasawa: One thing we're trying to do with this project is to connect the Japanese American redress movement to other movements today around racial justice or reparations. And I'm curious, for you, do you feel like there's some sort of responsibility or moral authority that Japanese people have to advocate for other communities that want reparations given the fact that we received redress? For example, for Black Americans, do you feel that Japanese Americans 01:03:00should support those movements?

Elsa Kudo: Well, people who wish to support should do it, but it should not be made mandatory. I think it all depends on that person. If they have a good relationship with a group of people and they want to do it, help them, that's terrific. And not everyone can be that involved either, because they may be suffering themselves. And you can't help someone when you're suffering yourself is a thing.

Katherine Nagasawa: That it should be also a choice?

Elsa Kudo: Yes. I think almost everything is a choice. Choice to be bitter about things or to accept things or not, to be happy with what you have or not. I 01:04:00mean, it's all choices, really. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I guess final question is, what kind of takeaways would you want people to have about the Japanese Latin American story? If you're thinking about your grandkids, what do you want them to remember about it?

Elsa Kudo: Mostly that they should know the facts about their grandparents, what happened to them, and what could happen to them, the grandchildren themselves in the future because how our world is, how people are, the people's heart don't change that quickly, and so we have to be very careful. At the same time, be very charitable to others, and to learn from not only one's experience, but 01:05:00other people's experience, which is harder, because unless you sympathize, it's hard to do that. Yeah. But at least with our grandchildren, I think they're more sympathetic because so many of them have read the book, so they know what happened to their great grandparents and to their parents, or to their grandparents, us. So I think they're a little bit more aware than other people because of that, because of our talks too in there. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I know that your granddaughter, she participated in Peru-Kai last year. Didn't she sing a song or something at the-

Elsa Kudo: Oh, oh,

Katherine Nagasawa: ... Kira?

Elsa Kudo: Kiana?

Katherine Nagasawa: Kiana.

Elsa Kudo: Kiana. Did she sing a song? Did Kiana-chan sing a song? I don't 01:06:00remember. She's very musical. She's the only one in our family who is musical. None of us are musical all.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. She sang at Peru-Kai.

Elsa Kudo: Which one? The last one?

Katherine Nagasawa: The virtual one.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, Yuuyake Koyake. You know the Japanese song?

Katherine Nagasawa: I don't, no.

Elsa Kudo: It's a real cute song that we remembered as children. It's about taking a walk when the sun is setting, and that you could hear the church bell. It's a very picturesque, and then you see the karasu, the...

Eigo Kudo: Crow.

Elsa Kudo: ... crows flying overhead. Yeah. It's just a cute that we learned when we were kids. Yeah, yeah. So we like that. Yeah. And she has a beautiful voice, we think.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. That's so sweet. One more thing. I was thinking, I don't think we explained what Peru-Kai is. Could you talk about the origins of it? Because your dad helped organize it in Chicago, the first one.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: So what's the history of Peru-Kai, and how does it continue to today?

Elsa Kudo: Well, Peru Kai started in Chicago with my dad, and Papa Kudo. At that time, he was single, Mr. Takeshita, and they would organize picnics. Why-

Eigo Kudo: Every year we had a picnic for all the Peruvians.

Elsa Kudo: And we all would meet at Lincoln Park, or what was that other park? North Side. Anyway, yeah, just little parks area. And we all share in our bentos. And my mother would make a lot of Peruvian food. His mother would make sushi and nigiris and all that and chicken teriyaki, good food. Lots of good food.

Katherine Nagasawa: And lomo saltado, right? They had the Peruvian food.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, Peruvian food. Yeah. They didn't do lomo saltado too much because that should be warm, but they did make like ceviche, things that could be taken with ice underneath the thing, container. What else did we take? Corn, gohan, anticucho -- beef hearts. Yeah, those kind of good food. So we all would gather and then share. Yeah, because each family has his or her favorite kind of food that they would bring but we all shared it. That was our Peruvian picnic we called it. It was the least expensive and everyone could drive to the park or get to the park, and everyone could bring something. It didn't have to be 01:09:00elaborate at all. It could be just nigiris, sandwiches, whatever. Usually it was more nigiris than sandwiches and tea or chicha morada, the purple corn drink?

Katherine Nagasawa: Chicha. Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Which we like.

Katherine Nagasawa: I had that. I went to Bolivia one summer.

Elsa Kudo: And they had it?

Katherine Nagasawa: I had a chicha. Yeah. It was yellow corn they used.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah. That's more alcoholic.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, really?

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. That's good. But we used to make the chicha morada, which morada means purple.

Katherine Nagasawa: Purple.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. So we used to do that. I don't know, we just had fun seeing each other, because everybody worked so hard. So once a year we have this picnic of gathering of the Peruvians in the park, which was free.

Katherine Nagasawa: And then it has gone international since then. You've had ones in Japan and Peru, right?

Elsa Kudo: Did we? Peru. Peru has its own Japanese Peruvian Olympic size grounds really? Like for swimming, running, track. What else? Tennis. Those kind. And a huge picnic area.

Eigo Kudo: Are you talking about school?

Elsa Kudo: No, no. The Peru no...

Katherine Nagasawa: Peru Kai.

Elsa Kudo: Peru Kai picnic area. And you know where Miyo-chan and Yuri-chan took us and we had a nice time underneath the trees. Yeah, Nihon-dewa Peru Kai was held in Peruvian restaurant in Kawasaki, which is the next town to Tokyo. And so then we had Mr. Oyama. Did he live around there? Oyama-san?

Eigo Kudo: What?

Elsa Kudo: Did he live around Kawasaki?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, okay. He was trilingual. He was a Nisei from Peru. But he married another Nisei from Peru. And then they were the ones who left to go to Japan after the war. And he was the one, because he was trilingual, he would translate what Grace or I or anyone else wrote in English. He would translate it to Japanese and then send it out. So he was a real force in Japan, but he died about two years ago.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah.

Elsa Kudo: Ne? So we've lost a great leader.

Eigo Kudo: Honey, more than four years ago.

Elsa Kudo: Is there more than four? Oh my gosh. He was a wonderful person, a wonderful giver. A wonderful person who did so much out of his own heart. Yeah. 01:12:00So we have no one now. Not that I know of.

Katherine Nagasawa: You mean in Japan?

Elsa Kudo: In Japan. Dare mo inai yo, ne? Mo.

Eigo Kudo: What?

Elsa Kudo: Nihon ni. Nobody's there after Oyama-san.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Nobody took leadership at all.

Elsa Kudo: Well, everyone's gone, or they're all getting older.

Eigo Kudo: Well, Oyama-san was one of those that went back from camp to Japan, and he graduated from the second university that's famous in Japan.

Elsa Kudo: Oh, he did?

Eigo Kudo: Hitotsubashi.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Most famous.

Eigo Kudo: So now he knew Spanish, English, and Japanese.

Elsa Kudo: Well.

Eigo Kudo: And he worked for Sumitomo-

Elsa Kudo: The big-

Eigo Kudo: ... the trading company. And he went to Bueno Aires as a branch manager.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, wow.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, because he knew Spanish. Then he came back and then he retired after he became 60. That's when we met him when he retired.

Katherine Nagasawa: Is he around your age or is he-

Elsa Kudo: He's a little older.

Eigo Kudo: Yeah, he's older than me.

Elsa Kudo: So he died about four years ago, I guess. I thought it was two. He said four.

Eigo Kudo: Wonderful guy.

Elsa Kudo: So we miss him because whenever we went to Tokyo, he would come out and we have lunch.

Eigo Kudo: His wife was on the Tami's Peru-Kai broadcast.

Katherine Nagasawa: I watched her.

Eigo Kudo: She was the one that came out first and said Happy New Year in Japanese.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Oh, she was in there?

Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Oh, Mrs. Oyama.

Elsa Kudo: Oyama-san. Yeah.

Eigo Kudo: She is the only one that's married a Peruvian to Peruvian like us.

Elsa Kudo: Yeah. All the others married Japanese-

Katherine Nagasawa: I see.

Elsa Kudo: ... once they went to Japan.

Katherine Nagasawa: Kind of nice that you both understand-

Elsa Kudo: Yeah, it is.

Katherine Nagasawa: ... those experiences and also have the Spanish.

Elsa Kudo: Yes, yes, yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: English.

Elsa Kudo: Yes. Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I just want to be mindful of time.

Elsa Kudo: Yes.

Katherine Nagasawa: So I wanted to close but ask you if there's any final words that you wanted to part with or final reflections on-

Elsa Kudo: Final-

Katherine Nagasawa: ... the Japanese Latin American redress efforts or the Japanese Latin American story.

Elsa Kudo: Well, most of all, I think my husband and I feel the same, that we'd like to thank you for your effort in recording this for future generations, because we'll be gone shortly. We're in our 80s and 90s, so that's "atari-mae" as they say --natural. But thank you for your interest and the fact that you are doing something for the future, not only now, but for the future, which is a big deal, really. So thank you.

Katherine Nagasawa: Of course. It's an honor to interview you both.

Elsa Kudo: Thanks.

Katherine Nagasawa: I'm just going to ask, if not can take a quick picture-