Matsumoto, Jason (9/10/2019)

Anna Takada: Start with a slating, just introducing the project.

Jason Matsumoto: Okay.

Anna Takada: And we'll get right into questions. This is an interview with Jason Matsumoto as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview's being conducted on Tuesday, September 10th, 2019 at 11:41 AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Jason Matsumoto is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please state your full name?

Jason Matsumoto: Yes, my name is Jason Katsuo Matsumoto.

Anna Takada: And where and when were you born?

Jason Matsumoto: I was born in Chicago on November 23rd, 1982 at St. Joseph's Hospital. It's the one you can see from Lake Shore Drive that has blue facade.

Anna Takada: And can you tell me about where and when your parents were born?

Jason Matsumoto: Well, yes. So they were both born in Chicago in, I believe, Morton Grove. My mom was born in Morton Grove and my dad was born in the city, I believe, close to like, either in Lincoln Park or Old Town area.

Anna Takada: And what years were they born?

Jason Matsumoto: Oh my God. 19--, (laughs) 1950-- something.

Anna Takada: In the '50s.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah.

Anna Takada: Cool. So like I mentioned, we are interested in hearing about your family's experiences during the war. You know, of course, with our generation, we don't have all of the details, so like whatever you can offer about your 00:02:00family's background is like totally fine. So I guess to, to start, I know you mentioned you know more about your mom's family's background?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah.

Anna Takada: So, would you be-- Do you know like maybe where, where they were from originally, how they ended up in, I believe, it was California?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, sure. So I'll start with my grandmother on my, my mom's side. So Kiyo, her, her maiden name was Chino, so Kiyo Chino. She was born in Utah, actually, and her father had come over and was a coal miner in Utah. I think the story is that he, he landed somewhere either somewhere on the West 00:03:00Coast, I, I think in Seattle potentially, and at that time they were sending people to Utah to do coal mining. They were sending Japanese Americans to Utah to do coal mining. He ended up there, and he had a picture bride wife and so they, they started their family in Utah, so my grandmother was born there. Um, s--

Anna Takada: Do you know when she was born?

Jason Matsumoto: No, I don't know the day. She'-- It's 2019. She was 95... Yeah, I don't know. I can fill in like dates late-- dates later. And, she actually grew up... You know, I think there were some Japanese Americans there, but not a lot. And, she grew up Mormon. So maybe the, the influence was from Utah, or just being, just being specifically in that area. And she remembers her, her, her 00:04:00mother was a housewife and was, you know, aside from taking care of all the, all the, all of her siblings and, and her, she would do things like wash all the miners' clothes and... like for a fee you know? So, they were, they were fairly poor. And I think what happened was one of the family members, I believe it was of, my grandmother's mother, was living in Terminal Island and they were working in the canneries in Terminal Island. And so, at some point before the war and before the forced removal, they moved from Utah as, as an entire family to Terminal Island and began working in the canneries. And so she ended up... It's, 00:05:00it's kinda funny I-- You know I think if they had never done that, they wouldn't have been incarcerated, right? Because I think Utah was outside of the zone, but they ended up moving... I think, just a few years, maybe like three or four years before the forced removal. They, they lived in Terminal Island. They moved around a few different times before you know eventually being removed from where they were, so it was kinda this interesting... I, I just didn't know that many people that were, that were living or from Utah, you know? So it was an interesting thing. I wonder how many folks were, were there.

Anna Takada: Mhmm.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah.

Anna Takada: And so that was your maternal grandma's family.

Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm.

Anna Takada: And do you-- Let's see. Do you have details on your paternal 00:06:00grandfather's family, where they started or...

Jason Matsumoto: Paternal grandfather's?

Anna Takada: Mhm-- Ah, your mom's dad.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. So they... So, so my grandfather, Ben Chikaraishi, he and his family were from Stockton, California. I-- I actually think they, they lived in a few different places before Stockton in California. And yeah he, so he's... So my, my grandfather, he was one of... one, two, three...

Maria Pimentel: Sorry. That was so...

Anna Takada: Very loud.

Jason Matsumoto: Oh, you pick that up? Yeah.

Maria Pimentel: Yeah.

Jason Matsumoto: He was one of what, four kids, right? Yeah. So, yeah. I think 00:07:00he was one of four kids? Four or five, maybe five? Yeah. I should know all this. (laughs) And, so yeah. So he was, you know they were, they were in Stockton, which was a much bigger Japanese American community, obviously, than Utah. And they owned a, like a transient hotel, like a hotel for, for like farm laborers. And so he remembers kind of having, kind of a strange upbringing, where you know, all the kids were fairly separated in this pretty large hotel. And they... As, as kids, they had to, had to kind of like experience and deal with like very interesting people, mostly men who were, you know farm laborers. And he 00:08:00remembers things like you know, you know just like a transient scene, like some prostitution going on, maybe some like fairly, you know, nefarious things happening in the hotel. And a lot of him and his siblings' jobs were to take care of the hotel, so he, he talks about, you know taking care of, you know the toilets in the different rooms and cleaning things. He... It was interesting. I think he, he never really had like a, a strong like drive or aspiration to go to college. He mentioned to me one time that he was going to be a barber and his, his advisor in school, maybe a mentor, maybe a teacher, potentially saw something in him and was-- and, and kind of encouraged him to think bigger and 00:09:00go to college, and so that was like kind of a pivotal person, a pivotal moment. He talks about that person, and so he ended up going to Berkeley to study and he was, I think, three quarters of the way towards an optometry degree when the family was removed, but he, he seemed to have like a very vibrant life, I think, growing up. He was, he was part of the temple because-- or he went to church because he didn't want to go to Japanese school, but that became like kind of a strong thread within his life.

Anna Takada: In Stockton?

Jason Matsumoto: In Stockton, yeah. He played baseball. He did, he did things like kendo, you know, so he was fairly active. And, yeah I mean he was... I-- It's hard to imagine like being three quarters of the way through a degree and 00:10:00then like kind of, getting that taken away from you. But, he talks about, you know, he was away at Berkeley when Executive Order 90- 9066 came out, and then having to make the decision with his family about what to do. And they were trying to tell him to stay in school for as long as possible to see if he could finish the degree 'cause they didn't know what was going to happen. But his, his father... So, so his mother, I think, was fairly sick and his... She passed away before they were effectively incarcerated. And his father got picked up by the FBI, I think, kind of like in a dragnet kind of way, where he wasn't really like a strong community leader, but he had donated money to Ben's kendo club at one 00:11:00point. And the publication where his name was printed had a, like a headshot of, I think, one of the military leaders of Japan on it 'cause I think that, that, that military leader was like a high level kendo player. And so, basically anybody that had donated money, it was the equivalent of a, you know 50 or 100 bucks, he had donated cash to his son, Ben's kendo club and then that landed him in you know the FBI-- the, the Department of Justice camps. So without the mother and-- or the mother being sick and the father being taken away, Ben came back to kind of figure out what to do with the family.

Anna Takada: Is he the eldest?

Jason Matsumoto: No, he was, he was the second oldest, so his, his older sister 00:12:00was the one that you know, was there to kind of see the FBI come and take, and take their father, but he was still at school at that time.

Anna Takada: And would you happen to know details on like whether there was any kind of like, official guardianship or something offered to the eldest siblings because...

Jason Matsumoto: By, by the government?

Anna Takada: Yeah.

Jason Matsumoto: They've never mentioned that to me. I don't know. Like was that a thing? I don't know because--

Anna Takada: I, I, I don't know, but I, I'm curious about it because you know, by removing the head of household and I know that that was very much how things were organized, by head of household, so I just wasn't sure.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. No, they never mentioned anybody kind of coming in to... At least from, you know like a government perspective or a government official 00:13:00or somebody that was, that was assigned to them.

Anna Takada: Or like I wonder if looking through their documents if Ben and maybe his older sibling were like marked as head of household or something.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, yeah I would assume it was that and I would assume it was the oldest... The oldest child w-- you know kind of became the head. But I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know.

Anna Takada: I did want to go back a little bit, just to see if, if you happen to know any information about your grandparents' parents in coming to the U.S., 00:14:00if that's safe to, to assume that it was their parents who came to the U.S. from Japan?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. I don't know a lot about like the circumstances. I know that at least for, so for Ben's ... So Ben was the second son and so they, that family, like the Chikaraishi family, they were from Hiroshima, and this is kind of vague, but I think, you know they-- So, so actually, I visited them, that, that kind of like that, that side of the family at some point, and they still actually have a farm or some kind of like plot of land that, that is like farm land in Hiroshima. And what I've been told is that it was bad crop, but the house was valuable, so they, you know they, they left the eldest son, I think as, as many families did, in Hiroshima. And that's actually something that, that 00:15:00my grandfather Ben talks about all the time. That's like... He knew that his father felt incredibly guilty about that, because Hiroshima ended up getting you know, bombed right? And he felt so guilty about leaving his eldest son there, that like most of the money that they, the family had made would be sent back to Japan to kind of like, in some, in some way, to feel in some way that he was contributing to the eldest son's life in, back in Japan. And so... I think there were like a few back and forth trips. I know, I think Ben, my grandfather had... like remembers his father going back a few times prior to the war, but I don't know the circumstances. What I've been told is that it, you know it was like a really bad crop and they weren't... Just life was very difficult, and they 00:16:00weren't able to make money and so they were looking for something outside of Japan to do.

Anna Takada: Mhmm.

Jason Matsumoto: And then... Yeah, I don't know much about my, my... So, so Kiyo's family. I know that... I don't know where her father is, is from, specifically in Japan, but I do know that you know, h-his-- her mother was sent over as a picture bride. I don't know where they're from in Japan, though.

Anna Takada: Mhmm. And how, how about your, your dad's family?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, so my dad's family, you know, in the U.S., his mother, so that's Yoko and her maiden name is Yamamoto, they were from, I believe, the 00:17:00Tokyo area or maybe somewhere like a bit more rural than Tokyo, but they had like relatives close or not far from Tokyo. And then his father was from the Fukushima area. And, so yeah it's kind of interesting because it's, it's vastly different from like the concentration of people that came from you know Hiroshima, like, you know more towards the South, that my father's side of the family, I think, came from closer to Tokyo area or a little bit further north from where like a lot of pre-war Japanese Americans came from. I believe they were also farmers, and... At least on, on my, on my dad's father's side. Yeah.

Anna Takada: What was your dad's father's name?

Jason Matsumoto: Katsuo Matsumoto. He always used to talk about this place 00:18:00called Aizuwakamatsu, which is somewhere within Fukushima. And I think that's, that's, they w- they were from a place close to that area. There's a really famous like samurai story that he would like incessantly tell me all the time.

Anna Takada: Your grandfather?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, yeah. From like that town, so I think he was from somewhere close to that area. I should ask my cousin, he's got like the entire family tree memorized. They, so my grandmother on my dad's side, they were from like the Santa Maria area in, in the U.S., at, at least, so they, they lived in and around Santa Maria. And then my... The, the Matsumoto side were living in 00:19:00Los Angeles, I think pretty close to like, you know what is now like Hollywood area, so like, you know prime real estate. (laughs)

Anna Takada: And both of your dad's parents came to the U.S. from Japan? They're originally from Japan?

Jason Matsumoto: My, no my, I think they were both born here.

Anna Takada: Okay.

Jason Matsumoto: So yeah like their, their families came. My grandfather was Kibei though, so he went back and, and was you know educated, I think, for like five or six years, fairly formative years in Japan.

Anna Takada: I'm sorry, you said your grandfather was?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, yeah. And, yeah so... That's like I don't... yeah I just don't know a lot about them.

Anna Takada: Mhmm.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah.

Anna Takada: Well, and then so when the war broke out, do you know where, let's 00:20:00see, where all of your grandparents, respectively, where they ended up, like, assembly center, camp?

Jason Matsumoto: I was asking my aunt this last night. I, so we don't-- I don't know where my... So, I'll start with my father's side. So, on my dad's side, my grandmother's family, the Yamamotos, they... I'm not sure what assembly center they went to, but they ended up in Gila River and then my grandfather, he actually was never incarcerated because he was, he joined the military and I think he was within MIS but he wasn't like, like an intelligence officer at all. I think he, he was a, like an army cook, and he was based, he was, I think, 00:21:00eventually based in Minnesota, but I think spent some time in Kansas, too.

Anna Takada: And then your mom, your mom's parents?

Jason Matsumoto: They both were at Santa Anita. Yeah so they were both in like the horse stalls in Santa Anita. And, yeah my grandmother remembers, you know I think, graduating high school in... on a horse track. So, she was there and my grandfather was also at Santa Anita and then they both were moved from Santa Anita to Rohwer, Arkansas.

Anna Takada: And so as far as... Well, I guess first of all, I want to ask, like 00:22:00when you were growing up, was this particular family history, was it something that you guys talked about or that you were aware of as, you know as a kid, or...

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. I mean I don't remember really engaging with it as a kid. I think I was lucky 'cause my grandfather was fairly outspoken about it, maybe more so than other families were. Although he never... You know when you go back and you try to find out information from just my aunts and uncles and my parents, it's very clear that like their parents never spoke to them about it and I, you know that's a, that's a, that's a common narrative. But it was never, it never felt like a huge family secret. It's just something that I didn't know 00:23:00to ask about and maybe my parents didn't have any like any information and also felt like it was, it, there was a weird relationship to actually ask those questions. But you know I will say that Ben was always very outspoken about it and would speak at you know various public things and events about it, so it wasn't, it never felt like it was a huge secret. It just didn't feel like it was, it ever bubbled up to the surface naturally in any kind of conversation you know when we were having, having any kinda like family gatherings. But in, in... I was in junior high school. I think it was seventh or eighth grade? And, yeah, I think it was a history teacher. He... Yeah he was very interested in the fact that we were Japanese and that we were living in, you know the 'burbs of Chicago.

Anna Takada: Where did you go to junior high?

Jason Matsumoto: Wilmette Junior High School. And, you know, he just asked me this question, like "Hey, do you, does your family have any connection to this history?" And through that, you know we had, I asked my mom. You know I don't remember this exactly, but I came home from school and was like, "Hey, my history teacher asked me about our family history. Do you know anything about this?" And then eventually led to my grandfather doing like a presentation at, at my school. And you know, I think when he retells the story, he always retells it as though he was coming to speak to just my single class, but they ended up, the school and this teacher ended up creating like an entire like school assembly around it, so he got very nervous and he, I think he holds it against 00:25:00me in a way like, "Hey, why'd you put me out there?" Yeah. But you know he, he, I think that just goes to show like he's, he was willing to go out and speak about his experiences and talk about them. And I think through that, that got me like slightly interested. You know, just like, "Hmm it's, it's interesting to, to see like a school kind of organize a thing, like a full school assembly around like my grandfather's story. There must be something more to that." But I, I don't feel like I got super invested in you know working in this history or like learning more about it for a very long time after that, still. You know, I think it was something that was like, "Okay, that's interesting. Maybe there's something behind that," and maybe it like stuck in the back of my mind, but it wasn't like I became like a social justice warrior from that you know, from that 00:26:00like seventh or eighth grade class you know?

Anna Takada: But it does seem like that was kind of a moment where you understood that this was your, your family's history.

Jason Matsumoto: Totally a pivotal moment in like my understanding of, that, that something about that was very important. Yeah.

Anna Takada: So, the next question I wanted to ask is just about you know, if there were any particular family stories or maybe memories that you have heard about from your family about their experiences in camp. I just, you know 'cause family folklore is like always a big thing. So I'm just wondering if, if there 00:27:00were things either you know, from a younger age or later in life that you heard of about or heard repeated in your family about their experiences?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, so one th-- so one story that my grandfather on my, on my father's side used to always tell us, I mean I think he... He had a very difficult life because as a Kibei, he came back to the States and then you know he was, he was-- like a lot of his formative years like learning language and kinda how to communicate were in Japan and in Japanese, and so he, I think he had this like bitterness about kind of what that felt like to come back and to be like maybe six-- four, five, or six years older than like the people that he was actually in class with because he, his English skills were like almost nonexistent when he came back, and so--

Anna Takada: Do you know when he came back?

Jason Matsumoto: Um, no.

Anna Takada: Like either age within his life or actually years?

Jason Matsumoto: I think it was like sixth or seventh grade, maybe?

Anna Takada: Okay.

Jason Matsumoto: Or maybe fourth or fifth grade.

Anna Takada: And was that before the war?

Jason Matsumoto: That was before the war, yeah. So I think he always felt like, outcasted from the very beginning. And this is not necessarily in camp 'cause he didn't go to camp, but when he was serving for the military, he remembers, you know, I think there was... One of the Roosevelt family members was visiting this base. I think it was, I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt, but it might have been one of the kids. I don't think it was the president. And, they, they got all the... All the soldiers you know were obviously getting ready. It was a very exciting moment, like you know a political leader's coming to kind of like rally the troops and you know everybody's you know like getting dressed and you know 00:29:00putting their best on. And they ended up funneling all the Japanese Americans into this like barrack and they locked it or something. It was a mess hall or a barrack and they locked it because of you know, just, just distrust, right? And I think there's like, there's a corroborating story about this and I think, I think JANM did a whole thing and they, they found some of the guys who were there to come and talk about this and I think it happened in Kansas? My grandfather always used, used to tell me that it happened in Minnesota, but I think it actually happened when he was on base in Kansas and he kinda remembers that as like you know just a complete blow to like what it meant--

Maria Pimentel: Sorry, can you repeat that? What you were saying about your grandfather?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah.

Maria Pimentel: Realizing what happened, you know--

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, sure. So you know these, the, the Japanese American unit was kind of funneled off into a separate part of the base and he recalls, this 00:30:00is, this is my grandfather on my father's side, he recalls that barrack or that like mess hall or whatever being locked as a way to protect whoever this was, like the, one of the Roosevelts, from you know, the Japanese Americans who, who they thought could, could maybe try to like, I don't know, attack that person? And I think for him, somebody who just felt completely outcasted from like a very young age, and you know I think entering military service for him was a way to prove loyalty. And then like in that singular moment of like being locked up and distrusted when somebody who's coming to like rally the troops from like a very high political stance, it, it, it kind of embodied you know the, the conflict of like what that must have felt. I mean, for me to imagine what that 00:31:00must have felt like, but for him to, to be like, "I'm, I'm doing all the right things. I'm, I'm trying to, to serve my country," right? But like at, at every turn, even like something as simple as like a visit from one of the Roosevelts, we can't even participate in that. So that's one of the stories that he used to always tell me. And then, I think maybe on a lighter note, you know how we always talk about how like we can't drink a lot of beer, or a lot of whatever. His, his, his nickname in, in the Army was "One-Can Matsumoto". Yeah. Or no, no, sorry, "Half-Can Matsumoto". (Laughs). So I get my drinking abilities from him. Yeah, and so that's always one that kind of like comes to mind. On, on the other side of my family, you know I did this like oral history with my, with Kiyo and 00:32:00Ben Chikaraishi a few years ago and it was really great 'cause we just got to ask a bunch of questions and kind of hear more about their life, and it gave us an excuse to like ask very specific questions, and... One thing that my-- It, it's always interesting to hear how people meet, you know? And you know, one thing that my grandfather and grandmother told us about how like they met was, so my grandmother was, she lived in, in Rohwer, like one of the barracks that was close to the hospital. And so my grandfather would have to kind of walk past... Was that right, or is it the other way around? Anyways, he, he, he was always, he was always attracted by her long legs. (Laughs) And he'd always tell me like, this is like really kind of mean, but he'd always tell me, he's like, 00:33:00"It wasn't like the other Japanese American girls who had like you know, kind of like short stubby legs, you know? She had long legs, you know?" And it was just, it's, I think, for me, it's funny to kind of like think about them as like a romantic, like in some kind of romantic relationship, because you get so caught up in like these, like the facts and like the, the terrible aspects, and-- But like you know these people are just like 18- to 20-year olds who are, have the same kind of like romantic feelings, and they're just trying to like find, find and make, make the situation normal for themselves. So like, you know comments like that were really hilarious, and just a good reminder of like, you know they're just, they're just, just kids who are trying to figure it out. Just recently, too, like my... So, there's that like, there's that Rohwer Pilgrimage that, that's starting to happen every year, and they've been distributing old 00:34:00like publications from, I don't know what it's called, but like whatever publication was, was being created as like a newspaper in the camp at Rohwer. And there was this, there was this article about my grandfather who played baseball you know in camp, and it's a hilarious article about how the bespectacled Chikarai-- Ben Chikaraishi hits like a three run homer, or something like that. And, and it's just really like th- those moments where you just like get a glimpse of what, what maybe like the more positive side of like living in those places was, and just like normal daily life. And I actually got to like, I talked to him maybe a week ago and I was like, "Hey, and so I read this article" and there's all these names that are in this article who are like his teammates. And so I was, I'm, I'm, I'm reading names, and he's just like kind of sitting there kind of like smiling and thinking about... I guess all 00:35:00those guys played baseball together in Stockton, so this is like even pre-war. They kind of like kept this, this unit and this team you know together, and like when there was a baseball you know league created in camp, like they, they again, formed a team. So it's, it's kind of like a cool moment where like you see like... We think of these, these incarceration sites as like just a, just a huge aggregation of people, but they have all these little cliques and these, these, these like social, kind of groups that I think remained and existed, throughout both like coming into the incarceration, but then also where people resettled too.

Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. On that note, do you know about when, when family members left camp and, and where folks ended up?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know years like really well. I know that... So, again, I know that Ben, my grandfather on my, my mom's side, he left pretty early. I think he, he was able to find a job in Chicago as a way out. So he left... Three... Yeah, I think like as early as '43? And he left on July 4th, of, of, of all dates. He tells a really great story that I think-- about his departure date that I think is like really telling for like you know, America, and kind of like what was happening. Maybe both like back then, but also today, just in, in terms of how we order ourselves by different characteristics. And 00:37:00he, you know he's, he's been incarcer-- Like, so he's been removed from his home in California, brought to a prison in the middle of Arkansas, where they're like the only like non-white and non-Black people, like in, probably in the state. And he gets released on you know, Independence Day, the 4th of July, and he gets on a bus. And it's like the segregated south, so there's white people in the front and Black people in the back. And, I can never tell the story the way he tells it, 'cause he's got like, he uses the word "Gee" a lot, like, "Gee, what do I do?" you know? But he, so he was like, "Well, I just, you know I was just imprisoned by the government for the past like few years, and I must be like you know, in the back with, with the Black people. So he goes to the back and he sits down, and the bus driver then stops the bus and is like, "Hey, what are you doing back there? You don't belong back there." And so he was like, "Well, what 00:38:00do I do? You know, like where do I belong?" And so he ended up like finding a seat like literally kind of in like the, the color spectrum of the bus right? So he found a seat right in between the Black and white sections. And I think that, he says that that was one of the first times that he realized, you know, despite what Japanese Americans had gone through, being imprisoned and losing all their property and possessions, they were still considered to be above Black Americans, and they were still considered to be 'better than', or, or you know whatever. They were still considered to be more accepted and more acceptable than Black people, you know in that time. And he was like, "Wow, that's, that's like a really..." It, it was interesting backdrop in context for him to think--

Maria Pimentel: Sorry, can I pause you? I can hear what they're saying outside.

Anna Takada: Oh, okay.

Jason Matsumoto: Okay.

Anna Takada: Sorry about that.

Maria Pimentel: Sorry about that.

Jason Matsumoto: That's cool. This story is like well documented. (laughs)

Anna Takada: I, I have it from him as well.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, totally. Did he use, did he say gee a lot? "Gee, where do I sit?" I, he, always says that.

Anna Takada: There's a good chance.

Maria Pimentel: Sorry, I can hear you with the microphone. I can hear you.

Anna Takada: Oh. We're filming something right now, do you guys ...

Maria Pimentel: Oh, if you turn on the sound, then you won't be able to shoot.

Anna Takada: Okay. Sorry about that. Thank you-- And resettling. So your grandfather left in '43 to Chicago.

Jason Matsumoto: Mm-hmm. I think my grandmother left the year after that. I 00:40:00don't know, I don't know when my grandfather was, either discharged or left the Army to come to Chicago. I don't really know when my grandmother, on my father's side, left either.

Anna Takada: But everybody went to Chicago?

Jason Matsumoto: Everybody went to Chicago. Yeah.

Anna Takada: Do you know where folks ended up in Chicago, or what they were doing?

Jason Matsumoto: So I know that, so on my dad's side, I don't know where they started off, but they did, like eventually, and nobody knows if they owned it or just managed it, but they, they had, they were running a place called the Windsor Hotel, which was like a boarding house on, somewhere on Clark Street. I 00:41:00just found that out from like a completely random letter that like my mom just showed me. But, so I'm going to try to dig more into that because it's like fascinating. And, and then they, this is the, sorry, this is my father's mother's family. So the Yamamotos. Yeah. I also asked because it was curious to me, I didn't think they had a lot of money. Like they weren't... My grandmother, so my grandmother on my dad's side, her father was a truck driver back in, back in California. So he didn't, you know he was like a truck driver for like produce, he didn't have a ton of money, so I'm not really sure how they were able to afford either like renting the entire Windsor Hotel and like running it, or purchasing it. But I know that a lot of my, a lot of that family lived, were 00:42:00like tenants. So I think they filled it out with both their own family and then plus you know renting it out to people, probably other Japanese Americans who were coming to Chicago. And then, they eventually bought a place on Racine, which was also like a larger building. I think it was South Racine, like on a larger building that, that also housed some family members and some other folks, so property game. And then my, my grandfather on my mom's side started off on the--

Anna Takada: Sorry, Jason.

Jason Matsumoto: We're good.

Anna Takada: I'm so sorry, but I just got to start doing this at night.

Maria Pimentel: Yeah, last time it was so... No one interrupted...

Jason Matsumoto: He remembers like these like streets. Yeah, it was funny, we were doing this like taiko show maybe like five or six years ago. UChicago, and we were going to do it at the International House. And then like I don't know, later on I found out that both my grandparents like served food at the International House on Chicago. Sorry, at, at, at the, at the University of Chicago. So I think that was like maybe a, a job that people were able to pick up. Yeah. So they... And then after Ben and Kiyo got married, they were one of, one of the, one of the first families, I think, to kind of move to the suburbs, and they ended up moving to Morton Grove.

Anna Takada: And you said that's where your mom was born?

Jason Matsumoto: Mm-hmm.

Anna Takada: Did your dad's family stay on the North Side?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, so my f- my dad grew up on Hudson, like right by the temple, right by the Midwest Buddhist Temple. So they were kind of in that community, near like, in and around Lincoln Park and Old Town.

Anna Takada: And so let's see, as far as what you've heard from your family, or know of your family's history, was resettlement ever something that was kind of talked about, or did you ever get information or stories about moving to Chicago from the camp?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah I mean not... So, my grandfather on my mom's side, Ben, he would always talk about the housing situation, and how difficult it was to, I 00:45:00think, first, you know just even find housing that, that would be consistent and clean. And yeah I--, besides kind of the challenges of housing, not much. Like I know a little bit about how my grandmother and her sister, on my dad's side, they were domestics. And I just found out that they had like changed their names to be like very American names. Like I, I can't remember what it was, but it was like, like Lucy or something like super kind of generic names they had changed. And I'm not sure if it was in order to work as a domestic, or kind of in order to maybe just like fit in, or assimilate. But they never really... you know I 00:46:00think we all have come to understand that resettlement, in a way, was chapter three, and like the hardest part. But I didn't get a lot of like individual or like kind of family stories about how difficult that was. Yeah. You know I know my grandfather was like very active, this is my grandfather on my, my mom's side, was very active in trying to like help rebuild the community. So he was, I guess, in a way, kind of dedicated to that. Both like through his profession, he, he eventually became an optometrist and was like, became a very central figure to the community through his work, and he also, he dedicated so much time to these like social organizations. Like the sports leagues, like CNAA, and also 00:47:00the temple. So I know that, in a way, he was, he was like very dedicated to trying to figure out like things, or activities, or institutions for people to become a part of, or to do. And some of that, you know like he doesn't talk about it too often, but like you know like when I ask him about the reason why, like there's often mention of like you know there's just like a lost generation of people that don't have anything to do, or like no community, as they, they move from you know like maybe a very strong community, from what they knew in Stockton, California, or wherever, on the West Coast, to coming to a place where they h- they literally had to live in the same place and build you know relationships and communities, to a place like Chicago where you can just get lost in the sea of things. And you know like the risk of like young people getting tied up in whatever. I think he had like a strong interest in trying to 00:48:00create some semblance of a community here.

Maria Pimentel: Sorry, I'm going to possibly stop. I'm going to, since they're talking, I'm going to move the mic a little bit.

Anna Takada: To start, would you be able to tell me about, 'cause like we're really interested in identity here in this part, but like when you were growing up, and then your upbringing in the Chicagoland area, in what ways were you connected to your Japanese heritage, or, or you know family heritage?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I think the strongest connection to family, or maybe 00:49:00some, some idea, like without really knowing it or thinking about it intentionally, of, of the community was through the Midwest Buddhist Temple. You know I grew up in a place that... Wilmette, did not have like a large Japanese American population, or even Asian American population, or any population outside of just you know, like white American, right? And so that was, I think, the strongest connection to the community. Was every Sunday we would go and you know like I'd just be like hanging out with my classmates throughout the week, and on Saturday, like just friends from the neigh-- from, from Wilmette, and then... that looked very white and American. And then we would go on, once a week, on Sunday, to the temple, and that would be all my cousins and my family, 00:50:00and like the, the larger... and all, all my grandparents and all their friends. So just a one day blast of the community, right? And yeah, I think that's kind of what that represented to me without, you know I wasn't like acknowledging it or like aware of it really, but that's, when you look back on it, that's what was happening, like that was the connection to the community.

Maria Pimentel: Sorry, I can do something really quick.

Anna Takada: I'm so sorry!

Jason Matsumoto: Okay.

Maria Pimentel: Okay. Good.

Anna Takada: So attending temple on Sundays was a big connection...

Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm.

Anna Takada: Were there other ways that you were involved with the community?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I mean, I think-- There was... So when I was growing up I 00:51:00always played taiko, which I think, in this kind of weird way, like again, I never thought of it this deeply when I was like a young kid, but that was certainly something that kept me connected to something that was Japanese, or felt Japanese, or Japanese American. And, I also did, did kendo for a little while with my cousin. And again, so you know I think that that's like... I, I don't know whose idea that was, like if it was my parents', or my cousin's parents', or my grandfather's, but you know it was interesting. I do remember my grandmother giving us rides there. So maybe there was some influence from, you know my grandfather doing kendo like a long time ago. He's like, "Hey, you should do this thing." So yeah, there was like you know, pockets and like moments where certainly there was some connection back to you know, like the 00:52:00community, and kind of these activities that, that you can call Japanese or Japanese American. Yeah.

Anna Takada: Growing up, did your family speak any Japanese at all?

Jason Matsumoto: No, my, my parents, not at all. And my grandparents, very rarely. You know they would, on my mother's side, they would talk about how they, they knew very old-style Japanese. But then on my father's side, my, you know 'cause my fath-- my father's father was a Kibei, so he, he was the only person with a really deep accent when he spoke English, almost to the point where you couldn't... sometimes you couldn't understand what he was saying. And he just wouldn't talk very much. And so yeah, there was li--, there was no, 00:53:00there was no like learning, or, I mean there were just a few words, I think, that like many families heard. Like urusai, like, "You're loud," or, you know like "Stop that," stuff like that. So just these very, very sparse, very sparsely used. And I think our parents passed it... Like my, my parents passed it on based on what their parents would say to them in Japanese. Yeah, but besides that there was, there was really no, no connection to the language.

Anna Takada: And, growing up in Wilmette, you mentioned that it was predominantly white. Did you, did you ever experience any kind of discrimination or... like growing up?

Jason Matsumoto: I think, overtly, like there were, there, there's a few moments 00:54:00I can remember... It was, it was really interesting. My cousins, who had grown up kind of in a lot of different places but were living in California at that time, we were at a Blockbuster here. Blockbuster, so, yeah, that, that dates it, right? We were at a Blockbuster here, when, maybe I was like nine or 10 years old, and my cousins were also here from the West Coast. And, this kid, we were leaving the store and this white kid like said something, like, he did the eye, like the eye? (gestures) Said, "Chink," or something like that, and I had no idea what was going on. I was just very oblivious to like, "What is racism?" Or like, "What does it mean to be like you know, overtly, you know like called some name?" And, but, but my cousin, who was I think one year older than me, and again, I think maybe because he like grew up in like a more predominantly Asian 00:55:00setting, like he was like livid and wanted to fight this kid. And my mom was like, "No, let's not fight him." You know so it was just this, this moment where like I had to think, I, I didn't know what was happening, and I had to think about like what that meant. And watching my cousin like get so angry about it, made me, it was kind of like one of those moments where you're like, it made you think a little bit deeper about what the situation was. Yeah. But I don't really remember a lot of overtly racist things, you know like, thinking about like systemic oppression and things like that. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff happening in Wilmette, and through like the school systems, and all that stuff, but I never felt like, you know I had like a group of friends and I never felt like it was like, I was super different in any way. Yeah.

Anna Takada: And-- Excuse me. You mentioned that, you know like, even from a 00:56:00young age you had plenty of connections with, with the Japanese American community in Chicago and this, this heritage, but you weren't totally aware or thinking about it from like an identity lens. Like, "This is my personal identity." So at, at what point did you... Like I guess, how would you like describe the, the process of your own like personal identity development?

Jason Matsumoto: Sure, yeah. I should also mention, too, that I was part of the youth group at here at, at JASC, right? And there was, there was a time in which we, there was a youth group. I remember there was a woman named Mayumi Willgerodt that was leading it. I think with her husband, and again, like I 00:57:00never thought of these things in any deep way at the time. It was like, "Oh, cool, it's a thing with people my age. Mostly my cousins and some people that like go to MBT, and let's do this, let's hang out."

Anna Takada: So that was just a social, what was the youth group?

Jason Matsumoto: I think it was just social. I'm sure there was more to it, but I, I didn't really engage like enough to be, to think about identity, you know? I think I was just like... Yeah, in a lot of ways, just like maybe like the way that I thought about identity was that I was always trying to fit in, in the place that... Like at New Trier High School, you know like in Wilmette, like with my group of white friends. Like, maybe that was the way that I was engaging with it, by just trying to like, kind of be accepted into that, but I never, it, it never occurred to me that like working towards a specific identity--

Maria Pimentel: Sorry. [inaudible 00:58:05] do that.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. You know, there's these big taiko conferences in LA where, in, like in the early years it was predominantly Japanese American people. And I think to see a lot of people that look like you, who are older than you, who you can kind of, kind of look up to and aspire to, and see them in a, in a massive group like that, like you know, talking about whatever they're talking about, but just being normal people and like existing, that could have been influential. But as I was deciding on going to college, I was like, "Well, it's probably really important for me to like engage in a place that has more Asian people, you know just generally. Like I, like I wonder what that would feel like." You know? And so I, I remember going, like that as like a pretty big decision point. That, and I think, in a way, through taiko too, 'cause I was much more invested in taiko, and getting better at taiko by that time, like in 00:59:00junior, senior year of high school. And, and so that was also a big decision, like, there needs to be a vibrant taiko community wherever I go to college, because I want to play. And I remember going to, I think it was like a 1999 taiko conference where there was a group in Seattle who was like, they were all my age, they were all Japanese American, and they were, they were good. And I was like, "Oh, I want to be part of that group." You know? And so, I think that was also very influential in my decision to go to Seattle specifically, where there was a vibrant Japanese American community, there was like four or five different taiko groups that were really good. The one that I wanted to get into, I did get into. And, yeah, and then I think, from there, you know like I was in... At, at Univers-- sorry, University of Washington, I had no idea, like 01:00:00there was a guy... So like I was, I was in like the business school, right? But I could take electives, and so my friend and I, we were like, "Oh, we should do something, like Asian American related." Just, you know "We're both like Asian Amer--" He was from a completely different place, like half-Japanese, half-Chinese, from Hawaii, like v-very different. Like I don't think a direct connection to the incarceration. But the person who was teaching that class was, I think it was a class about Japanese American incarceration specifically, I think. Yeah, it wasn't an intro class. But the person who was teaching it was Dr. Tetsuden Kashima. Yeah, and I had no idea who this guy was, but I've come to realize now, through the work that I do, he's like a big shot! You know? And he was like relentless on me specifically. I was like, "Is this, is this allowed? 01:01:00Like can you do this as like a professor?" He was like, "No. Whatever you're doing, don't do that project. Do this project." And he, and he made me like interview my grandfather 'cause he found out that my grandfather's father had been picked up by the FBI. And he was like, and I think, at that time, he was doing a lot of work around that particular part of the history. And so he was like, "Go back. Like you cannot do any project, but this project. Here, here's your project." You know? And like I was like, "All these other people aren't doing anything. They're just doing like, you know like two page papers." And I was like pushing back really hard. I didn't understand why he was pushing me so, so hard to do this project. And he had me interview Ben Chikaraishi about his grandfather. And so I learned a lot about the Department of Justice camps, and kind of the difference between those and the internment camps. And I think that 01:02:00was an-another like one of those milestone moments, like very specific towards the incarceration story, that it was a, a pivot to be like, "Okay, this is, yeah this is like, it's even within, like, the history is even within my own family." Like, "This guy is super interested in this particular thing, like why is he so interested? And why is he making my life so much harder? Like I thought this was just a random elective that I was going to take to like get more credits." You know? And that was, that was still my mentality, even like in college, at that time it wasn't like an important thing to me to be like, I need to learn, learn about my family history, I need to learn about all this stuff, I need to understand what happened to Japanese Americans, like none of that was like really like right in front of me or like driving me to kind of like learn that. Yeah. So, you know I think then like for me like, from an identity perspective, I was like very much, I think, from the time that my father, my dad was like, 01:03:00"Hey, like why you have all this Japanese stuff in your room?" Like from that moment, to going to college, specifically because I wanted to be more involved or like surrounded by an Asian American community. And it was funny, I remember like the first few years I would like hang out with these people that were like really into like, I don't know, I don't want to like categorize things, but like you know very like I don't know like shooting pool and going to like cool dance clubs and like driving like really fast, fancy cars, like... And I was like, "This, I don't know, this, this, is this what being Asian is, like this feels really weird to me." You know? So like I was always on this like kind of, I think, without knowing it, on some kind of identity search, and so I... I was like, I started like dating some girl from, from Japan, you know? And I went, I went to live in Japan for a year during college to like, you know like, this doesn't like... "Seattle feels different and cool, and there's more Asians, but like it's not... I don't know, it's not me." You know? So I was like, "Maybe I 01:04:00need to go back to Japan." So like you know, my junior year I, I like, I went to Tokyo and, and studied abroad for two years.. --or sorry, for one year, and I think it was like one more chapter in trying to figure out who I was, right? Like, maybe if I go here and just like invest in it, just you know completely like submerge myself in the culture, and the language, and the people, and the food, and you know everything, right? Like maybe that would, will make me feel more comfortable. And that was great, you know I felt like I learned a little bit about like, some of my family, like my grandparents and some of their like intricacies and ticks, you know? Like oh yeah, that's, that feels familiar, like all these different things. But like, I mean culturally it was like a complete-- It was like, if you came here to, to feel more comfortable, I think the end 01:05:00result was that you realized that you are something completely different. You are, you're very, very American, and you think differently, and you act differently, and you live differently, and you even dress differently, and you, you know, everything about you is different. But you know like another like checkbox in like the 'Jason Matsumoto journey of self-identity' right? You know, I, I joined clubs like the shamisen, like the, the traditional music club, you know shamisen, koto, fue, stuff like that, and I met my family out there. I got to speak to my... So, I had mentioned earlier that my grandfather on my mom's side, yeah, my grandfather on my mom's side, his brother was left in Japan, in Hiroshima, and when I was living in Japan his wife was still living, so I got to 01:06:00speak to her. And like, at that point it was like maybe nine to ten months into my trip to Japan, and so my Japanese was pretty decent so I could actually have a conversation with her. And she told me about... They lived in this valley in Hiroshima, and they, they lived kind of like-- Sorry, Hiroshima is a valley and they, they lived a little bit further away from like the city center, and so when the city center was bombed, you know with the nuclear bomb, basically every single person who wasn't dead or like, had skin just melting off their bones, became nurses and like housing for those people who were just like directly attacked. And so she, she painted this picture for me, not that she was trying to, we were just having a conversation about what it was like to be in Hiroshima during that bombing, and it was like an, it was such an unreal moment to listen to this woman, who I assume was maybe like a few years older than my 01:07:00grandfather, to kind of know a little bit about his experience, but then to hear about what she had to go through during the war, right? Like literally, she would, she was saying that they were just truckloads of people being... you know 'cause she wasn't directly affected by like the impact, of course, I'm sure like radiation has like you know affected her, but at that time she was still healthy and could, and could do things, and there was just these bodies that would be pulled into their house with like skin just like literally melting off their face and their bones, and they were trying to figure out how to just, just take care of these people. You know? And so it was just this unreal moment to like sit there and talk to somebody who's my family, right? Who sat in a, in a position to like see what was happening on the other side of the war. Yeah. So 01:08:00that was kind of an unreal moment, and I think, again, just like a, just like a, just like a milestone in like understanding like, the, the, the family's history.

Anna Takada: Thank you for sharing all that. So, another thing that I wanted to be sure to talk to you about, or talk to you about was, you know, of course as far as your personal career you made a big shift in, you know the field you're involved in. But I'm wondering if you can just share with me a little bit, just for context, maybe like what you had been doing professionally, what the shift was, explaining the shift, and, and then maybe getting into some of the reasons why you made that decision.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Yeah, when I got back to Chicago after college I--

Anna Takada: What year was that?

Jason Matsumoto: That was, I guess it was 2005? Or '06. Yeah, 2005 or '06. I actually played, I spent a year like living at my parents' house and playing with Tsukasa Taiko for a little while, and trying to like make that-- trying to figure out how to make that like work by only playing taiko. And I think I was just like, way too naive and didn't understand how to like, you know, structure a day, and like do, and like you know, create opportunities that were not like... that were more freelance, you know? That I think artists who are starting out have to figure out. So I went like, you know, I think in a lot of ways I was, I was pushed, not, not pushed, but there was, there was like, there 01:10:00was some, I, I wouldn't call it pressure, but there was like some... Success, like in a way, looked like a certain path, right? For me. And I went to business school, and so I, I've, I always felt like I need to figure out how to like work in corporate America, and like do that, and that's, that's the thing I'm going to do. And my father, was like, you know he made it very high up in corporate America, became like a CIO of a company, right? So like there was like a model for that. And so I went into like the financial field, and I spent like a good decade, kind of floating around and doing things in like the financial derivative sector at places like the Chicago Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. And yeah, I, I did that, and I like, I, I worked my ass 01:11:00off, and like you know, tried really hard and, and you know got like to a, a very decent level for like what, for like, the time I had spent, you know doing that work. And just, I think in a way I like, proved to myself that, like, "Oh yeah, okay, this is like, this isn't that like, this is doable." You know? And, but there was like always something kind of like pulling at me, to like, there was something like missing, I guess, and I, it's, it's... And it kind of all comes back to taiko. Like I was, we were playing taiko at Ginza, right? Like the festival at the Midwest Buddhist Temple, and a friend of mine, he had, he had brought like a few of his friends to the show, and one of those friends was this guy named Eugene Park, and he was a filmmaker working in like kind of like 01:12:00experimental film specifically around Asian American identity. And we finished that show at like, on the Ginza stage, and Eugene came back and was like, "Hey, you know I'm doing this experimental film, it's about this thing," which was Asian American identity, like what it means to be American and the experiences of that when you're not white, and he was like, "I'm looking for some music that's like, kind of blends this idea between like you know like maybe s-some semblance of like, traditional music, or like a lineage to a different culture, but then also like how do you meld and, and create like a new sound from that?" And so he asked me to do the soundtrack for the film, and we did that project, and then once we finished that he was like, "I've got this script, you know, it's a script about this Japanese American guy who owns a store and then has to..." Or no, it was a different script, but it was, it was, it was effectively 01:13:00the, it was "The Orange Story" in like a very early format, and it was about the incarceration. And he just said, "You know I've, I tried to launch this project here in, in, in Chicago but I just don't have any connection to the community, would you come on board and kind of help me figure out how to like engage with the community that you're a part of?" And it was really attractive to me. So, so I was still working at the time, and I-- At, in, at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, but we started working on this project together, and it, it, it grew into something that was much bigger. We got the funding from the National Park Service grant that moved the film from like a $5,000 project that was like funded by all of our parents, to a $200,000 project that now had like this whole educational component to it, and it had like a whole like academic team to it. And so I credit that, you know like, my meeting Eugene and kind of like what his 01:14:00artistic vision was, and then also like, us working on this, this project, which became "The Orange Story", I credit that as like kind of the seedling to what eventually became like what I'm doing today, right? So maybe like three or four years after that project I had been taking all my days, all my vacation days from the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, to either go play taiko, or to go out and like present the film, you know somewhere around the country, and I was like, "Wow, this is, this is like a very viable option, and it feels really good, you know?" Despite like the money being very, very different and like the lifestyle being very different. And it took me two years to kind of like, think through that. I think when you're on a particular track, right, especially when you get kind of like deep into the weeds of like corporate America, it's, it's really difficult to, to figure out how to separate yourself. It's very good at like, it's a very good mousetrap, right? Like the benefits, and like the li-- and you 01:15:00know, all these different things. And it took me a long time, but in 20, was it 2017? In 2017, in the summer of 2017, I left that, you know the financial derivative world and path, and then just completely cut over to start like putting all my time into things like building this film company. That's... It's a nonprofit, and it's, it's based, it's mission is to increase diversity and awareness around these untold stories from different communities, the Japanese American story being one of them. And I think in a way like, the, "The Orange Story", and then these other projects that we're doing around the Japanese American community, really inform what the mission and model of the, of the company is, because we're trying to create narrative films that might not have like you know, star power, or might not like, end up in Hollywood, but create in 01:16:00some way some empathic understanding and some emotional understanding of somebody else's story, and then combining that with the right set of academics and educators and curriculum developers to try, try to leverage the platform of like popular media to educate people about whatever it is, social change, or communities of color, or history that's, that's untold.

Anna Takada: Quickly, what year was the, what year did you meet Eugene, and what year was "The Orange Story" project completed?

Jason Matsumoto: I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I think 2013 was the year I met Eugene. We finished "The Orange Story" project in 2016, I think we 01:17:00probably started it like late-- early 2015, and then we finished it like late 2016. Yeah, 'cause then we went out and we did the tour with it on the 75th anniversary of EO 9066, which was 2017. Yeah.

Anna Takada: So that, I mean like you, you mentioned it was quite a drastic change to go from working in finance and to... I mean here, you know for the sake of this interview focus on Full Spectrum, but... Yeah, you mentioned that 01:18:00it, you know it felt good to be doing taiko and to be working on these Full Spectrum projects. Can you say a little bit more about you know why you were, why you eventually got to that decision?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I mean I think, so I think like when I look back there's, there's... Part of like the, the self identity discovery is like really trying to understand or like figure out what your individual values are, you know? And I think for a long time, especially when you're in like finance and when you're in trading, it's very easy to get caught up into like, the goal here is to make money, that's the goal. Like there's, there's nothing beyond that, right? Like, to be good at that, in that profession, it's, it's about figuring out how to make the most money, whether that's in your salary, or whether that's if, if you're a trader that's like, that's the goal, right? And so like as, you know I 01:19:00think as I became more invested in doing this parallel path of like pushing this film out, which was "The Orange Story", but still working at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, I would like go on these weekend trips to have these deep discussions about history and identity, and why, why the Japanese American incarceration matters today, and what's happening politically, what's happening socially, and then coming back into this world where-- Of like, of like high finance where you felt none of those things really mattered, right? Like nobody really cared about any of those things at the end of the day, right? I mean, I'm, I'm blanketing a whole company, so I know like there's individuals in that company that, that are good people, and I still talk to them and I do care, but on the whole, right, like the deci-- the decisions they make are very economic. And I remember after the 2016 election there was like a number of things right, 01:20:00like everybody's talking about, like we need diversity and inclusion at, at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and I got really invested in working with this guy who was like, who was... He was like a big Black man working at CME, which is very rare, and he w-- and we would sit there, and we got put on a team together, and it was, it was one of the best things that happened 'cause we'd just sit there and talk about what the experiences were like, you know? Not being white and working in this place. And he was doing this project where he was mapping all of the senior leadership against like a, a race and, and identity chart, and we were doing percentages and like, you know what that looked like. And he was, and then we were talking to the D&I folks, the, the "Diversity and Inclusion", I put that in quotes, right? People at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and so many of their policies were like just completely like empty, and, and you know 01:21:00it just felt like a very corporate style of like checking the box to ensure that you're good, you know like your brand image is good. And then I remember things like the, Trump's immigration policy at the very outset of his administration. There were people on my team, there were people like on teams that I was on that were from those countries that were like stuck and couldn't get back to work, and I was, I was good friends with people in Communications, and I was, I was, fairly high people, and I would like email them and say, "Hey, what are we doing about this? What are you going to do about this? Like are we, are we taking any kind of stance?" And they're like, "No, we can't do anything at this time." You know and it, it, it comes from a different place, right? Like it's not their fault, it's the board of directors and all these different institutions that, that are making these high level decisions. But you got to imagine, like I'm, 01:22:00I'm going through this stuff and listening to these answers, or like watching this stuff happen to humans you know, Monday through Friday. And then on like Saturday, Sunday I'm like flying to someplace to talk deeply about you know these, these things that I guess are more aligned with my own values, right? So that, that really started to kind of like tip the balance for me, and it made me, I think, expedite how I was thinking about, like, "Can I leave and still live? Or can I, can I leave and what's going to happen to my 401k?" You know like all these different things about, "Will I personally survive?" became a little bit less important to-- and, and like maybe secondary to like, "Well what does it mean to continue to work here?" I don't feel like, like when I look back I don't feel like it's much different, what, what I'm doing today versus there, 01:23:00like, I still really value the time there. Like I, I tell people all the time like, the number one skill I got working at, you know working in like a really kind of like high pressure, high stress environment of like finances, you know you walk in, you have to continuously walk into rooms full of very rich, very powerful white men, and then you have to walk out, as like a small Asian American person with what you want, and that skill goes a very long way no matter where you are. And, and I, I think when you compare the film industry to the financial industry, it's, there's a lot of parallels to like who has power and who has position and who has these different like decision rights, and also who has the money to fund these things. So, in a, in a strange way like I think five-- four and a half years into building this film company, those skills that I built you know like in 10 years of finance are coming in very handy to what we're trying to do to like break down these barriers in the film industry. So I wouldn't trade it for anything, and I think it's like one of those things, it's 01:24:00like, you just, it, it, it kind of like continues to go back to this identity thing where it's like that was what I wanted to do, right? I wanted to work in a company and that's what felt successful to me, you know? And I wanted like a certain lifestyle. But once I realized, like, I think once my values caught up, like my true values caught up and were like and were brought like more to the forefront through the work that I was doing with "The Orange Story" and, and through Full Spectrum, that helped to shape kind of my, my worldview and thinking today. And then now I'll just say like, this podcast, "Seeing White", c-changed it all! (laughs) Has completely shifted, like once again, like my worldview. And that's like, it's a joke, but I think that that's like, I was very naive and I was very like, immature in the way I thought of the world, even like as a 35-year old, 34-year old, and I'm, I, I still feel that way. But I 01:25:00think once you're introduced to the work that Full Spectrum's doing, and the work that you're doing, and the work that we're collectively as a community doing, and you get deeper and deeper and deeper into that work, like, things start to shift in the way that you kind of understand the world, and I think that at least today, like the activities, like the, the places where I spend my time are much better aligned with what I believe in as a, as a, as a human.

Anna Takada: Um...(tape cut)

Jason Matsumoto: Effectively giving us a roadmap for the mistakes we've made in the past, and they're very clear. Like I think when you look at things like the Japanese American incarceration, and you, and you, and you boil things down to like the very base of what was happening, right, it was economic anxiety and it was racism. And I go back to the story of my grandfather getting on that bus, 01:26:00like that's how we structure our world, right? We understand our world through a series of very simplistic things, and it, it, it just continues to happen in, in every community's history. You know like I, I joke about saying like white Americans, but like even within whiteness there's like ethnic whiteness, and, and, and we're using some, some characteristic of some person that's completely arbitrary to make a decision about what should happen to them, or like what they should have access to. And history is important because you can see that pattern happen over and over and over again, and there's ways to change that trajectory, but I think without engaging in those stories, that, that, where there's like deep humanity, right, and real impacts to those decisions that are based on 01:27:00characteristics that might be arbitrary, if you don't understand those, and you don't follow through the kind of like the line of, of that impact on somebody's life, the trauma, the access, their social mobility, right, then you can't understand and you can't fix those things. And I think that's, that's the essence of why historians care so much about history, and it's the essence of why I now go to history conferences to, to present "The Orange Story" and talk about how we're using this educational model, and you know shooting films about like historical moments that, that, that matter. That's why me, Jason Matsumoto, who has never, like that has, like didn't study history, you know business school, like not, not really engaged with even my own personal history, that's why I'm going out now and talking about this stuff.

Maria Pimentel: Can I ask something really quick?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah.

Maria Pimentel: Why do you think that as a filmmaker, like a filmmaker, you-- 01:28:00and I'm including us, we're able to tell these stories now, and maybe in a way that weren't told before, why do you think that, from a perspective that's, you've been in the business and doing this now, why do you think that now it's-- Perhaps you know like there are more opportunities to see stories like the ones we're doing, do our work, and then our documentary, and even having more people telling us their individual stories.

Jason Matsumoto: I'm, I mean I, you know I think it's, so I think there's an opportunity to tell these stories, and there's an appetite and interest to tell these stories because of like the larger political factors that, that dictate what's happening in our world, right? Like there's, there's like, just at the broadest level there's, there's moves towards you know, authoritarianism, and 01:29:00there's moves towards just continuing to bucket and make decisions about people and communities like at a very broad level like in the exact same way that that, that happened to Black people prior to civil rights, that happened to gay people and, and you know people from the LGBTQ community before there was any you know advocacy for that, right, to the Japanese Americans. And so, in a strange way, right like, the movement that, that is Donald Trump, and the movement that is, you know, Nigel Forage in the UK, and the movement that, that's happening in like places like Hungary, like all that stuff forces everybody else to, to, to want to engage, and to-- Because you want to understand what's happening. You know, and I think, I think the, the challenge for us, like as media makers, or 01:30:00people who are trying to, you know talk about our values as humans, and spread those values, is to figure out how to responsibly engage as many people as possible, especially people who disagree. That's the challenge, right? Is, is-- because you can dig in and you can tell the same people that already agree with you over and over and over what you think the right thing to do is, through whatever kind of medium you're doing, whether it's an oral history, or whether it's a documentary, or whether it's a narrative film, or whether, whether it's a podcast, but it doesn't do anything unless you're having, you're opening up a conversation and having that conversation with people who like might disagree, or, or might have a different opinion. And I think that's, that's where I kind of like bang my head against the wall all the time to figure out like what, what 01:31:00can you do like responsibly, and what can you do in a way that will engage somebody like that?

Anna Takada: I just want to mention, we, we're getting to be at time, however there's still a few things that I wanted to ask you.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, sure.

Anna Takada: So if that's cool. So one thing that I want to be sure to ask is, so you know, I know that through... One of your current projects at Full Spectrum, you all are working on a narrative film about the resettlement experience of Japanese Americans in Chicago.

Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm.

Anna Takada: Can you explain why that particular story was something that you guys wanted to, to highlight and you know base this whole project around? Why, 01:32:00why resettlement?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I mean I think, so for me personally resettlement is important because it, it dictates the reason that I'm like, live, live in Chicago and I'm here, not dictates, but is, is kind of the factor, right? Like, all of my family choosing to resettle in Chicago, for whatever reason that was, is the reason that I'm here, and I think that like, I think fundamentally that's, that's very important to me personally. To the larger community, and to this, and to the narrative of the incarceration, I think we have, there's many different levels to educating people about this history, right? One is that some people just don't even know it happened or existed, the whole thing, so there's like a level in which you need to educate people about that. But then there's a deeper level where you want to expose and really offer the opportunity to, to 01:33:00learn and understand about every nuance and every moment in that history and Chicago resettlement or resettlement in general is, I think, an understudied component or chapter in that story of Japanese American incarceration. The more I've learned about it, the more I've realized that in a lot of ways, you know, I think losing all of your possessions at the outset of the incarceration, your land and your property was incredibly difficult. I mean, no part is not hard right? Living in a bar-- or a horse stall or a barrack. That's not easy to do. But people who I've spoken to who went through that talk about how resettlement, like, you're poor, you have nothing, right? And then you're in a new city, you have no connections outside of the own, your own community and you're being told not to create community. Like, in a lot of ways, people say that that's, that 01:34:00was the hardest part, right? And so we're studying, there's so much history about kind of, the beginnings of, of the removal and what, what happened inside of these camps, but there's not anything about... I'm not going to say that, there's not anything. There's, there's less about what it was like to resettle, the struggles and the challenges, the economic factors, the, like institutional oppression and racism that they were facing now that they're free again, right? I think the assimilation that was kind of being impressed upon them, like all these factors I think, in a way, create trauma. And I don't think that people have had a chance within the community to really have a discussion or like a, or, have had a, an opportunity to, to kind of think about that and talk about 01:35:00that, and you know I think it, it plays out in the fact that our Nisei grandparents didn't talk about this to our Sansei parents, which in turn didn't talk about this to me and like my Yonsei counterparts, right? And I think all that has to do with, of course, the shame and like, you know whatever's tied up, whatever emotions and feelings are tied up in the whole experience, even though that's, you know we know that it, it was put upon them, there's a way in which the resettlement part of this story can become like a very like freeing or kind of opening moment for, for the community, and so I think both like, getting that story out there for the people who went through it and getting that story out there, for the people who don't know anything about this, equally important.

Anna Takada: And in what ways... So I know that you've, you've also, you mentioned that you've been doing research on this particular historical moment within our community. In what ways do you, do you think that, this process of resettlement impacted, shaped, changed the community here in Chicago?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. I don't, you know, I think... I've heard statistics that like, there's more interracial marriage of like primarily like Japanese American women marrying white men in Chicago than, than an-, than anywhere else. I don't, I don't know if, like I haven't studied like you know the numbers or the trends, but I do think that there was, there 01:37:00was less of a concentration of Japanese Americans here than like that, that ended up going back to the West Coast. And I think that probably has an impact on like how close we are to our like cultural identity and going all the way back to Japan, like the language, the food, the, the general culture. And I don't know. I mean I think, I think... Yeah, I don't know.

Anna Takada: Maybe if I'm re-- I'm thinking about reframing the question. I guess to think about it from a more personal perspective. Like do you, as a 01:38:00Yonsei who grew up in Chicago or the Chicagoland area, like if you, from what you know about resettlement and your family's experiences, do you think there are any ways that like resettlement or maybe the legacy of it has like impacted or informed your own life at all?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah...

Anna Takada: I know it's a big question.

Jason Matsumoto: No, I think... So... and these are all assumptions 'cause I've never spoken to my family about this, but I think there was a lot of like deep value in, in... Like so my father, for example, like, there were moments like when we were growing up where we'd be at the dinner table and I could tell my 01:39:00mom would be pissed off about something that happened at m-, at, at work for my dad, 'cause he told the story. And one of the phrases that I used to like hear a lot was like oh it's just, like my dad would say, "Oh, but it's, it's fine. It's just an old boys club." You know? And he was talking about things like, things that would happen to him at work, right? And he was like, especially as you moved up, right, I think you could see these like different structures of oppression and racism happening in these like massive corporations. But I always felt like the value of what it meant to be successful for my family at least, was you know, to move to the suburbs, to have, to have a nice house, and to have two cars and to work in a place like a, a massive corporation that, that you know like, you can continually move up in. And like, you know effectively it's like the American dream, right? Like middle class family values, right? Like, 01:40:00and I think that, that in a way, like we lived in Wilmette, like we were the only, one of the only Asian American families there, and like I think not seeing other people that were like me, not engaging in like a deeper way in the community outside of just going to the temple once a week, all that stuff has an impact because you, I, I think as a, as a per-- we want to engage with communities that have shared, shared experiences and shared values. And something like the incarceration, I think, creates that maybe in an, in an artificial way, but it, it certainly creates that, that like type of shared experience that everybody has, right? And so there's a, there's maybe a need to engage with those communities to, to heal or whatever, right? And, but I think there, that like, in a way like, assimilating towards like white middle class 01:41:00culture brought us out of that, like brought, brought our family out of that as like maybe... I don't know like maybe in places like Los Angeles or places where there's like a much stronger community with like a physical presence they, they might have had, right? And I think that's completely dependent on your individual family 'cause I know that there's families in Chicago that did engage that way, but I've never spoken to my parents about that. But I, you know like even today, like as there's, like even my mom who's become like much more... Like she went to a rally, you know? Like the, the Women's March. And it was, it was amazing to see. Like I never thought my mom would do something like that. But like even her and like the conversations that we're having these days, are, they're more willing to question the structures that are around them, like 01:42:00specifically like what it means to live in Wilmette, what it meant to move there, what it meant to like build a house there, what it meant to work in a structure that was like the, the, the old boys club, right? Like, they're more willing to have those conversations. And even like I, you know I just learned that like my dad was like a long-haired freaking you know, like anti-war, like, never saw that side of him. Right? Like you just wonder like what, what caused him to like never talk to me about those kind of things. You know he was at that JASC Convention where that, that woman was killed you know? Like never, I've, I've never heard any of these. Or sorry, the, the JACL Convention where that woman was killed in Chicago, right? He was at that and like he was, he was like on the front lines of the, these like different movements. Like we never talked about that stuff, and you know, I don't know if that's like from like, an, an assimilationist pressure? And I think it's really hard to like look at your own 01:43:00life and be like, "Yeah, that's the thing. That government policy is the thing that caused me to like, you know X, Y, Z." 'Cause it feels like you don't, then it feels like you don't have like, like any control over like what, the decisions you made. So it was, I think it's really hard to look back like, when you're so close to it to be like, "That's the thing that caused our family to do X." But if I like, if you sit down and you just like kind of stew over it for a little while, like, and then like I think Lisa Doi's work, right, about like showing how there was such an intentional idea behind the process of resettlement. Right? All those things kind of like start to kind of, I don't know, come together in a way that makes you question you know, how much autonomy you have or, or even if it was your own decision to do something, how much, how much of it was like you know, part of like a larger thing that was happening? 01:44:00And that's like scary to think about.

Anna Takada: Just a, a couple of questions before wrapping up. If you were to briefly describe the Japanese American community in Chicago, how would you describe it for someone who isn't familiar.

Jason Matsumoto: Well, I just came back, like, this weekend, I went to a Knu Basic's rehearsal and it was like, it was kind of amazing to see like, just four Sansei sitting in some guy's basement, like practicing, you know sixties, seventies rock. So I feel like, you know that kind of stuff creates a really v- like it, that's, that-- Those kind of things are happening like in small pockets 01:45:00in different places. And I think we have something very special in Chicago. I think that there's these kind of like institutions that have survived for 70 to 75 years that are pillars of our community. And without them, I don't know if the work that you're doing or the, or the work that I'm doing is possible. And so I have a lot of reverence for like the difficulties and the challenges of you know like, our community that have like stayed the course, no matter how hard it was, no matter how much like, outer fighting or infighting there was, like these places still exist. And there's like a really vibrant like you know, 18 to 30 01:46:00year old community that's like, building. And so, you know I think it's, it's, we're getting a lot better at building inclusion into these institutions. And I think we're getting a lot better at spreading the ways that people can become involved, maybe without being part of an, a, a historic institution. I think that's incredibly important, but we're on like a really, really, really good path. And so to me, like, maybe you know, some of the physical buildings and you know like Clark Street or like Clark and Division or you know, Lincoln Park is no longer like, primarily Japanese American. But the conversations that I have with people who are doing work in this community and you know things like, you know like just 'cause top of mind, like the Knu Basic rehearsal is like such an amazing example of the resilience. And I think in a way it's not even 01:47:00resilience. Like there's, there's enough of a diversity of events and opportunities and people that it's like there's like joy behind those things that, that are, that are happening and like real will to want to do them. And it's not like, "I have to do this because it's my legacy." You know, I think that there's a lot of that, which is very important. But I think that people are driven by like, more positive reasons to do things. And that, I think, is the fabric of like a really positive, strong, and hopeful community.

Anna Takada: You mentioned the, the work of, you say, young people in the community that that's very strong right now.

Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm.

Anna Takada: Why do you think that is?

Jason Matsumoto: So I think in a lot of ways it's... You know I don't know like a lot of history about how leadership has passed on, but I've heard stories about how... And maybe this comes back again to you know to our, to like this discussion about what impacts, like what like systemic or uncontrollable things impact the way that a community continues to build itself, right? One thing I've heard is that there was a, there was a, a huge challenge for like the Nisei to pass leadership onto the Sansei, but one difference that I see in the Sansei, not all the Sansei, but many Sansei passing leadership on to Yonsei, is that it's happening in a real and genuine way. And it's happening much earlier than I 01:49:00think it happened for the Nisei into the Sansei. And that to me, like these partnerships or like you know, joint programming or joint leadership, it's, it's passing on knowledge, it's passing on like... It's passing on knowledge and it's passing on history and legacy, but it's also, it's also being open to the knowledge and legacy of younger people, which I think is like, it's the only way to build good teams right? Is to truly value everybody's input. And, I think that's a big factor in the way that even like outside of Chicago, right, like we've heard you know how people from places that have like really large Japanese American communities are looking to Chicago to be like, w- how like, "What's the 01:50:00secret sauce?" You know? And I think it's, of course, it's like, you know these, these, these development programs that are at these different institutions that have been the pillars of our community, like the Kansha project, right? Of course it's things like that, that are like finding the next generations to actually engage in these conversations, but I think it's also really important for like genuinely and, and truly valuing in both directions right? From like the generation above you to the generation below you like thinking of that as very, as a very flat hierarchy and taking, taking cues from both sides to, to build something new. And that, I think, is like maybe what I feel is different or is just not different, but is working very well in Chicago.

Anna Takada: And I promise just one or two more questions.

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I got time. (Cut) A few things. One thing is I think there's relationships that need to be built and preserved or discovered. Right, so like the work that the JASC is doing, for example, in engaging with Shin-Nikkei and you know, post-war Japanese immigrants, right? The work that the JACL and the JASC do around engaging with other communities of color, like just continuing to expand our impact and our reach beyond our, our kind of like, historic you know, incarceration story. Legacy, I think is super important. And 01:52:00then I think finally just, just really thinking about what, how to marry all that with like, you know honoring the people that went through so much stuff to get us here. Right? Like, those are very different constituents and they can all, like there's a way in which every single one of those constituents can be served in a very meaningful way. And I think it comes to being open-minded and I think it comes to being creative, right? In the way that we engage in the story, honor the legacy, and think about its impact beyond you know, our families.

Anna Takada: And so you-

Jason Matsumoto: And also more like, you know, more like ramen shops and like more like you know physical spaces, right? Like land ownership, like you know, having some stake in, in like real development of a community that, that maybe 01:53:00looks like a physical space or maybe looks like a street, you know? Or maybe looks like, I don't know, something that, something that like reclaims you know like what we used to own or have in this city. Yeah. (Laughs) That was awesome. Just, just for the camera, she just spit her Halls into the garbage can. That was that noise. (Laughs)

Anna Takada: We're going to edit it out. So one question I like to ask, in wrapping up these oral histories is if you could leave behind some kind of message or legacy, doesn't necessarily have to be for the community, but just you know, for future generations, what's, what's something that you, Jason Matsumoto, want to leave behind?

Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. That is... yeah. I think, so it took me a long time to 01:54:00figure out what it means to like align my values with the time I spend like living in this world. And I don't think like, nobody should force themselves to like, to just constantly think about that. But I think the way that I've gotten there is to basically, like I think there's a philosophy in just trying to put yourself in situations that make you feel uncomfortable, and I, I don't think I would've gotten to this place where like I, I really feel like the time I spend like, in my awake hours are aligned with what I care about. I don't think I 01:55:00would've gotten to that place without putting myself like over and over and over again in situations that make me feel really uncomfortable and then having to figure out how to, how to exist in those spaces. And so there's no way to expedite that process for any single person. You might have to work for 10 years in corporate America, or you might have to, you know do something that, that doesn't feel right, but if you can think about that concept of, of comfort and discomfort and what it can do to your like personal development, I think that's one way that can help everybody more closely align their values with you know, the way they spend their time.

Anna Takada: I do have one more question before totally wrapping up.

Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm.

Anna Takada: What... I guess, what, what does the, the Japanese American, or Nikkei community of Chicago, what does that mean to you? Why is that important to you? I'm assuming, I'm assuming it is because I know you.

Jason Matsumoto: I think there's... Sorry. The Nikkei community is important to me, I think, one: because of the legacy of my own family, and two: because the legacy of what people had to go through to allow us to even be sitting here and talking about this community. And the fact that it, it still exists, it's, it's 01:57:00really amazing to me. And I think this, this story, right? You can kind of like put the same concept onto many different communities across the world and you know, in the United States, and it, it's like, our, our path creates a lot of like hope for me personally because, because of the fact that you can take something so terrible and you can get through that and you can come out the other side. Not everybody, right? Like there's there's people who have come out of this, the other side not very well and they're part of the story too. But the fact that we can still talk about these things and, and talk about our history in a meaningful way to help other people, I think that's why the, the community is important to me. And when I think of the Nikkei community, I, you know it's, it's this fascinating thing where like, what does it mean to, like for example, 01:58:00at the Midwest Buddhist Temple, what does it mean to build and continue to honor and like have reverence for you know, the people that founded that place, the people that went through every single you know challenge and, and roadblock to get that thing built and then people to keep it running? You can say that for every single institution right? And every, every component of our community. What does it mean today like in 2019 and how do you, how do you create inclusion where the history and legacy of, of those places and things will always remain to be understood and they're spaces that are like sacred and important and continue to be sacred and important to those who like risked their lives or maybe, maybe in some cases gave their lives to create those things, how do you 01:59:00blend that with like a much different looking community, right? And I think that's like, if we can get that right, that's, that's what I think is like the future of the community. If, if we can figure that out and learn how to be inclusive and at the same time express the importance of, of why we continue to talk about 75 years ago and have people come together you know without feeling alienated, that's, that's to me like that's the future of what we're doing.

Anna Takada: Well thank you so much again for taking the time to, to share with us. Before we completely wrap up, are there any last things you'd like to add or anything that I might have missed in this conversation?

Jason Matsumoto: Just one thing, I think. I think, because I came into this so late, you know like you just mentioned to me that not many Yonsei have a, as 02:00:00much understanding of their own history. But I think that's, for me personally, that's like a big, maybe barrier or roadblock and you know, a personal hope and dream of mine is to like, like in a, in a very meaningfu-- like I guess in a very genuine way, try to do that research and history for like... This interview made me realize that I don't know enough of like, I don't know enough about like, not just like the dates and the locations, but like what were people doing and what were their lives like? And I think I've avoided that because I can 'cause the work I'm doing is like more general and I can talk to people that are not my family about this history and still get like a sense of what was happening, but I think this interview's made me realize that like I want to do 02:01:00that, you know like for my own family, so thank you.

Anna Takada: Thank you so much again. Thank you.