Transcript
Index
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[NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain
errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.]Anna Takada: 00:01 This is an interview with John Matsunaga as part of Alphawood
Gallery's Chicago resettlement experience oral history project. The oral history project is condu-conducted in line with the current exhibition "Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two and the Demise of Civil Liberties." Today is October 7th, 2017 at about 5:45 PM. We're recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. John Matsunaga is being interviewed by Anna Tacada of Alphawood Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just start by stating your name?John Matsunaga: 00:38 I am, uh, John Matsunaga.
AT: 00:41 And, um, where are you from?
JM: 00:43 I'm from Los Angeles, California.
AT: 00:45 That's where you were born?
JM: 00:47 That's where I was born, yeah.
AT: 00:48 Okay. And how much time did you spend in LA?
JM: 00:52 I lived in LA for, or the LA area in Southern California, for about 29
years. And then I moved to the Bay Area and lived in Oakland and Berkeley for a number of years. And then now I live in Minneapolis.AT: 01:13 Um, I guess to start, could you tell me a little bit about, um, your
family and maybe how they were impacted by, the war?JM: 01:27 So, I'm a Sansei. I'm a third generation Japanese American. My
grandparents, my parents and all of my aunts and uncles were incarcerated, um, during the war, during World War Two. Um, my dad's family, my, my dad's dad, uh, he died before the war in 1940 so he was not incarcerated, but, um, the rest of his family, um, were incarcerated. Uh, they lived in, uh, Sanger, California, which is, uh, just outside of Fresno. And, um, they were farmers and his family went to Gila River in Arizona. And so they lived, uh, in California. The, um, the way that the forced removal occurred was that if you lived west of Highway 99, which was the main highway that cut through north, south, through California at that time, um, if you'll live west, um, when exclusion started, you were guaranteed to be removed from, from the, um, that area.JM: 02:47 Uh, if you lived east, uh, you, it wasn't at, early on during the
forced removal, it wasn't clear that you were going to be removed, but so they were, they, um, didn't have to actually go to, uh, a temporary detention center or an "assembly", um, center as a result of living east of Highway 99. And so, um, my father has kind of an interesting, I just learned this in talking to him that um, there was a, uh, uh, temporary detention center in Fresno. Um, but because they lived east of highway 99, they didn't have to go there, but they visited there, seeing people who live west of the highway that were incar- So it is this odd thing of being incarcerated in that camp. And then just because of where you lived. And then on the other side, there were free Japanese Americans still at that time who could go and were appearing through the fence or seeing people that they knew and things like that. So that was just sort of an odd little story that he told me recounting, you know, early on in his experience.AT: 03:56 So did they do that, did they go...?
JM: 03:59 They went and visited and saw, you know, from like the out- just to
see what was going on. Because again, you know, no one knew- in hindsight, we know how it plays out and kind of what happens and it starts to make more sense of what exactly happened. But, um, well not the justification for why it happened, but, but the unfolding of history, you can kind of, you know, and hindsight's always clear, but at the time, you know, thinking in their mind and then looking forward, um, you know, they didn't know what was going to happen to them. And so it's this very, and it happened very quickly. So it was just as quick thing of all of a sudden those west of Highway 99, were in this camp.JM: 04:38 And then they didn't know. They really didn't think. I think at that
time my dad was telling me, they didn't think that they were going to have to actually move because you know, the orders hadn't come yet. And so they thought maybe they would, they would have escaped this. But um, you know, so it was just sort of an odd, to me it was kind of an odd little story just because you know, this, this idea of military necessity and then of of removing Japanese Americans. And then on the one hand, just because you live on one side of a highway or another, you're either incarcerated or you're free. And so that must have been just sort of both an odd experience of, of being free on the one s- But I, I think that some that you had that same situation inland, um, in, in the camps and in for example, like say Colorado where there was no forced exclusion, but there was a camp there and then so fewer Japanese American living in Colorado, you, you already, you know, before the war, you weren't in camps.JM: 05:39 So you have this like free and incarcerated Japanese Americans in the
same area. So it's always an odd kind of thing to me to think about...AT: 05:50 Almost like emphasizes how arbitrary...
JM: 05:52 Yeah. And, and how, how that, that the actual threat that Japanese
Americans supposedly posed or this idea of military necessity was completely false. Because, you know, just because you're from California and you're in this, in these, incarcerated in prison, in these camps. Um, whereas if you just living in that area where that camp is, you're not really, doesn't make much sense, especially when your Japanese ancestry is the reason why you're being incarcerated. Um, and so, so come coming back to your original question too. So on my mom's side, um, they lived in, um, southern California and um, they went to Santa Anita, so they left. I think they had to leave in April at that time to go to the Santa Anita. And so that was different than my mom, my mom's and my dad's experiences were very different because my, um, my dad never went to a, uh, assembly center and he left in August, whereas my mom's family went, um, into, uh, Santa Anita in April, so several months earlier. Um, and then I think it was in October, that's when they went to Jerome in Arkansas. And so she was young. Both of my parents were relatively young. My Dad was, um, 13 I think when they went, and, and, and my mom was 11 when she went. Um, and I don't have that much of a story about the train. I don't think she remembers that much about the train ride and all that. I mean it's the typical thing of being on the train, pulling the shades down and, and, and that kind of thing. But they were, you know, they were pretty young at the time. Um, she also has an interesting story. She did that-she told me that the first time that she had ever seen an African American person was when she was in camp, at, um, at Jerome in Arkansas. Um, that she hadn't actually in Los Angeles, she'd never seen an African American person before. Um, and she recalls, cause she, her, her barracks was at the end of, edge of the camp and she recalls seeing a man, um, with like a cart with horses pulling it. And she was looking out and he was looking in at the camp and he waved to her and she waved back. And so this is like sort of her first, she had never seen an African American person before until going to Arkansas. And so that was like something that stuck out in her mind, um, about, you know, being there in that experience.AT: 08:59 And, um, to go back to your dad's experience, um, first, uh, what kind
of f- do you know what kind of farm you had?JM: 09:12 They, um, I don't know if-if it was at the time, but I know that, um,
my memory of the, of the farm was grapes and it, so it may have been grapes at that time too.Um...AT: 09:26 When you say your memory of it, have you visited?
JM: 09:31 Oh yeah. It's so the, the, the um, that farm stayed in my family. My
uncle Benny actually ran the farm. Um, and uh, because his sons didn't want to take over the farm. Um, they ended up selling it, I think sometime in the 90s, maybe late nineties, that they sold, that they ended up selling the farm, or early two thousands.AT: 09:55 So this is the same farm that your, your dad's family had before the war?
JM: 10:01 Yeah.
AT: 10:02 And how were they able to...do that?
JM: 10:05 Right. So, um, what, what happened. Again, I've, I've tried to kind of
get a straight answer on this and it's still a little uncertain, but my understanding is that the, that the, um, the farm was initially in the name of, um, I don't know if it was my uncle or, cause he was, cause he was, he's Nisei, so he's born here. Or if it was a f-, uh, another Japanese American family that was, um, that actually had married into, into, um, their family. So, um, uh, being unclear on that, but, but they did own the farm. And when they had left, um, they're a, uh, local packing fruit packing company. Um, had agreed to work the land and to, you know, split the profits and to keep the farm going. Um, and then when they returned, everything was, they had a place to return to. So when they returned, um, a family friend came first, made-prepped the farm, make sure everything was fine. Um, and then, uh, my dad's family was able to just return to their home. Um, the neighbors watched it, the neighbors and, and this fruit packing company took care of the farm, watched the farm. Um, just kept everything running. And so they were able to keep it. I don't, I don't know if at that point they had owned the farm outright. That is, were they making still, you know, payments on land. I think they might have actually just owned the farm outright, that they didn't have to make any payments or anything like that.AT: 11:50 And do you know when, um, they must, they must've returned after the,
the war?JM: 11:57 So, so they, um, my dad's family, they were at Gila river for the
entirety, from, so from August, 1942 to January, 1945. So when the exclusion orders ended on January 2nd, 1945, that's, that's when they left. And so they had heard in December that the camps are closing. You can, you know, exclusion from California is lifted and you can either can leave the camp or you can, you know, you can return to California. And so, um, they immediately returned to California and then he, he was in high school still, so he actually enrolled that semester in high school. So it was just like going straight from camp and then just going back to your old life. Um, and I asked my dad, you know, what was the, what was the attitude towards Japanese Americans in that community? And I think because they have lived there so long and that there were a number of different immigrant families and all farmers and in the small community, that the anti-Japanese sentiment, at least in that area of Sanger, where the farm was, was not that great.JM: 13:16 And, and when he went back to um, high school, you know, he, the kids
all welcomed him back. He didn't really face any discrimination from any of the Caucasian students or any, anything like that. Um, I think there were, I think the people in that community were s-somewhat sympathetic too, but I think a lot of that has to do with that it-that the, um, that sense of competition in terms of farming, which was great in California, wasn't as strong in that community. And so, they were, all-that sense of community was stronger than the competition, you know, that feel, that sense of competition amongst the different farms, so...AT: 14:00 And how about your, what, you know of your mom's family were...?
JM: 14:06 So they, they were at Jerome, and so when Jerome closed, I believe it
closed in June of 1944, um, they, instead of leaving camp, they had nowhere to go. So they didn't own land, when they were in Los Angeles, they didn't own land, um, uh, you know, they were tenant farmers and they were broke. They had no, there was nothing to go back to. And so, um, so even though Jerome closed and there was an opportunity to leave, they had nowhere to go. And at that point, exclusion hadn't been lifted, so they couldn't go back to California anyways. You'd have to find somewhere else to go. And so they went, they ended up going to Gila River. So they went to another camp. And so my, my mom's family and my dad's family overlapped at the same camp, um, for a time. So they stayed, trying to remember when they went to, um, she worked farms, but it was after the exclusion orders were lifted, so they didn't leave in January. It must've been, um, sometime later in 1945, it might've been when Gila River closed and I'm not, it's escaping me exactly when that was in 1945. Um, but they, yeah, so they, they stayed there for however many months between, uh, you know, probably wasn't more than a year, the river, but my, my mom's family was in the, so Gila River's broken up into two camps, two parts of it. One is Butte, and one is Canal, and my dad was in Canal Camp and my, um, my mom's family was a Butte Camp, so they never met or knew each other in camp but, but they were at in the same camp, at the same time, yeah.AT: 15:53 And then so Seabrook Farms is the first destination for your mom's family?
JM: 15:58 Yeah. So, um, you know, within the camps, um, a number of companies
were, were recruiting, you know, hiring Japanese Americans for various forms of work. And so Seabrook farms was looking for people for their agricultural, you know, um, uh, work. And so they lived, they lived in the housing at Seabrook farms too, which was another kind of camp, you know, they had this company housing and these, and these bungalows and stuff like that. So they lived there. And so she went to school in New Jersey because she was still in high school. Um, and um, but they were there, so they must've been there from 1945 to around 1949 or 1950. Cause my, her, her father, my grandfather, died in 1945 and he was, um, Issei, and he was an older Issei, so he was, at that time, he was already in his seventies. Um, so I think he was probably in his fifties when he, he had her. She was, um, you know, in her late teens at that point. Um-AT: 17:12 What did he do when he came to the U.S, do you know?
JM: 17:16 Oh, he was a farmer.
AT: 17:17 Oh he was a farmer?
New Speaker: 17:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was in agriculture as well. My mom tells
a story though that, um, that at some point he was very wealthy before the Great Depression, and the Great Depression, bankrupted, like, you know, um, but she was born in 1930 so she wouldn't know of any, you know, she wouldn't have ever had experienced that life at all. Um, but even, even her story of is a little bit vague. She, this, she's just saying, I was told, you know, cause she wasn't born yet. Um, and so, you know, the, the, so the whole family moved there, but then my grandfather died. And then, um, at some point my, I'm trying to, I don't know exactly when my uncle, I, he, um, moved to Chicago and he was the first one. And I actually found a photo of him, um, of one of the war relocation resettlement photographers took his photograph here in Chicago. And, um, it's in, it's in the, um, uh, JARDA, uh, database, the Calisphere. So it's, it's, uh, the University of California. Um, they have like this archive of imagery and documents from, from the war. And, um, so I've typed his name, I just typed her last name cause I was just searching if there was any family members and found, um, a photo of him here. And, and so there was some sort of housing here where there was a Japanese American couple who, um, had boarders, Japanese American boarders. And so he was, he was living in, so there was-there's a photo of them standing outside of the building. Um, him and another man with the couple that, that were boarders.AT: 19:04 Did you happen to know the family's name or the location of the house?
JM: 19:08 I don't remember the name. The name is in the documentation for the
photograph. The, the location is not, cause I actually thought about that before coming here to Chicago to see if could I find, um, so I don't know exactly, but I do know my mom, um, lived in Lakeview, is that correct? Lakeview area, which was, um, had a significant Japanese American population at one time, I'm not too familiar with the Chicago, um, the history of Japanese Americans in Chicago, but um, and so she, she lived there I think for a year or two or something like that before she left. But, so she must have been here from 19, maybe 1950 or early 1950s to the mid to late 1950s. Cause then she moved to California and lived in Los Angeles. And then that's when she met my father. So my sister was born in 1960 so you know, they were married, um, like 1959. And this is horrible. I don't even know exactly the exact year my parents were married. I think 1959 they were married, 1958. Um, and so, you know, by that time she was already, she had to have been there. So, um, it was, yeah, it was probably like late...AT: 20:31 Would you happen to know, so your uncle Ike moved first, to Chicago...
New Speaker: 20:35 Right.
AT: 20:35 And then, was it just your sister that followed or were there...
New Speaker: 20:35 Oh, you mean my mom? Uh...
AT: 20:41 Uh yeah.
New Speaker: 20:42 Um, I don't know. I think the whole family just moved, well,
he was sort of here. He was kind of like the pioneer. And then, um, once my grandfather had passed away, I think that that's when, when, uh, pretty much all of them, so my, my grandmother moved here and then the rest of the family.AT: 21:04 How many siblings did they have?
New Speaker: 21:05 Oh, um, and I'm trying to, and it's, I'm trying to also think
of like who was where at that time, cause I'm not sure all of them were, necessarily came out. Um, I think she had eight, sib-eight siblings at the time. So the oldest brother actually went back to Japan. So he had married a woman whose family went back to Japan during the war. And so he went with them and then eventually came back to the United States. But I never, I never even met him. I didn't know him at all. Um, and um, so she was one of two, uh, daughters, sisters, um, and the family. And then the rest, the rest were four sons, you know, boys. Um, yeah so, you know, she went out, my uncle Ike and I would imagine that she had two younger siblings who, who, brothers who went in-out of-god, cause they were still like probably in high school at that time. Um, and I think some of the older siblings went as well, except-with the exception of, um, the, her eldest brother and Naburu who went to, um, went to Japan.AT: 22:25 Would you happen to know, um, what everyone was doing in Chicago? So
what Ike was doing for work, and was she's still school-aged or...JM: 22:36 I don't remember what my uncle Ike is doing, but he eventually became
a, um, like an engineer. And so I think he's probably doing that by the time he left Chicago, but I don't know, um, like as far as schooling or what he did, what he did here or any of that. Um, she, she went to, um, fashion design school. I can't remember if she went, if she did that here or in New York, but eventually maybe she did some of it in New York and then was here. But I know that she went to the, um, Art Institute for a little bit and she has a story that she dated, uh, I'm forgetting this artist's name now. Oh. Um, it'll come to me, but he's, he's a somewhat well known artist, but it's just sort of an interesting story because she was, I think she was, he was the teacher and she was in his class and she's dating the teacher I think, but uh you might have to cut this part out. [laughter] I don't know if she wants this in the roster. But um, but he was a, he was a, um, well known painter and it's escaped my, his name is escaping me right now. Um, but um, so she, but she took some classes at the Art Institute. Um, and so I think our earliest work was, she was in, um, fashion design and design in general. And, and, um, and I think that work brought her to California. So some-I think part of her, part of her, uh, her education and training was here, um...AT: 24:17 So do you have a sense of how long, um, her family was in Chicago?
JM: 24:26 I'm trying to think of-
AT: 24:27 -was it all various...?
New Speaker: 24:28 when she might've been, she been one of the first, first ones
to move to Los Angeles. Um...my uncle Henry went into the army at some point, and so he may have left as w- you know as well, early, earlier on, um, and then, I know another uncle served in Korea, so obviously he would, you know, by the early 1950s, he was, he was away too. Um, but I don't think the rest of the family, like, like my grandmother, I think she may have stayed with my uncle Ike until the late 1960s. And so he moved to Los Angeles area in late 1960s and I think that's when she moved because my earliest memories of her, so I was in 1971. She died in I think 74? It seems kind of early, but I think that's about right. So I do have memories of her, but just very faint memories of her in Los Angeles, you know, so that's, and so I know that, you know, by the early seventies, they were already living in L.A. And I, so I, I suspect that they came out in about, in the late sixties when...AT: 25:49 And um, and where, where did your parents meet? How did they connect?
Speaker 2: 25:54 I think they were set up by, by, um, someone, but again, I
don't know all the details [laughs] with that, but I think a mutual friend set- set them up and that's, that's how they got together. And also just sort of a, as an aside, um, their, um, I found their wedding portrait, like their, it's um not at their wedding, but just sort of before sitting at Toyo Miyatake's studio, um, took the pho- I don't know that, at that point if he was still photographing, or was it his son? I think Archie may have taken it- taken over at that point. Um, but the stu- but the studio, um, had done that. And so that, there's just sort of that interesting thing of I looked at the thing and it had the stamp of Toyo Miyatake's studio. And, so...AT: 26:49 And, so, can you tell me about, um, your experiences growing up? I
mean, were, were your parents open and talking to you about, um-JM: 27:03 -Right-
AT: 27:03 -this particular part of their stories or, or w-where is this, this
knowledge coming from?JM: 27:08 Right. So, um, when I grew up, I don't even remember when I first
learned about the camps. I just know that I knew about them. Um, my parents never talked about it. Um, but I now only re-recently, so I'm 46. So in the past few years, I only recently started talking to my parents about their- asking questions, you know, finding out the details of, of their experience of incarceration. Um, and you know, for them, I kind of asked them, so will you reluctant to talk about it to us? And they said no. They said, you guys never asked. And so it's hard for me to tell because I get a sense that if I had asked them 20 years ago or so, maybe they wouldn't have been so interested in talking about it, they would've been like, oh, whatever, you know, it's in the past, but now that they're in their late eighties, um, I feel like they're much more open and wanting to talk about it.JM: 28:11 I think the environment for talking about it too is much more
conducive to expressing, you know, this past. Um, and so now they're, don't talk about it all the time, but, but, um, but yeah, I think a lot of it was, I grew up in the San Fernando Valley in a suburb of Los Angeles called Woodland Hills, which was primarily Caucasian. Uh, it's middle class. Uh, so my Japanese American identity wasn't something that, uh...I was basically growing up in a white suburb. I grew up white b- essentially. Um, and I thought of myself as white until other people started reacting to me in a certain way, coming at me, you know, and then I go, well, okay, that, you know, that was that sense of otherness that, that I began to feel, um, because I'm in my own skin, so I'm not seeing myself as, as any different than anybody else really, until other people treat me differently. And so that was that kind of awakening, but still, even throughout my life, regardless of that, um, I didn't really connect with or explore my Japanese American, um, identity or my family's history for- until relatively recently.AT: 29:31 And, and when did that happen? That experience of other people
recognizing you as somehow different or not white?JM: 29:40 Oh, that I mean, elementary school is the first, is the first,
um...you know, when you're kids you're always talking about things like that. And if you're just-you're kind of figuring out a little bit of who you are and then who other people are and kids are so blunt right so, you know, um. And so it was always, it was always that thing. And so I don't, I don't know that I have any specific memories, but just in a general sense of, of that, um, of that being othered every now and again, you know, being recognized as, as different, and it wasn't all that. And by the time of high school, no one really, I don't think anybody really made a big deal about it. Um, it was more in like elementary school when you're were really young and, and uh, just having that sense that you're, you're different. Yeah. That you're uh...AT: 30:29 When you were, um, you know, school age, did you learn about
internment in school?JM: 30:36 No. It's, uh, the, I don't, I didn't learn in grade school. And you
know, in K through 12, no, nothing, even- but this is, this might be more a reflection of the courses I took, but even in college, I did not learn about incarceration of Japanese Americans and, um, I don't know. I can't recall where I learned about it, but I, I knew more and more, but, but it wasn't, it really wasn't until the last few years that I began to study it intensively. Um, and then started to go deep and learn a lot about when it happened in the facts and all that. Um, but I don't, I never had any formal education that taught me about this past at all. Never even mentioned it.AT: 31:31 And can you, uh-
JM: 31:33 -and that's growing up and, that's growing up in Los Angeles where
there's a significant Japanese American, uh, population as well, so...AT: 31:43 Can you tell me more about, um, your education because you're, you're
an Asian American Studies professor?JM: 31:50 Well, I, I, I'm not technically a professor. I do teach Asian American
studies. So I'll give you, I'll give you a little bit of my background.AT: 31:56 Sure.
JM: 31:57 Um, so I, um, studied anthropology. I was actually an archaeologist
for several years. And, um, I studied anthropology at UCLA and, where I got my bachelor's, and then I was in the doctorate program at UC Berkeley, in Anthropology. And, um, even then as an anthropologist studying things like identity and culture and, and whatnot, I still didn't really explore or connect with my Japanese American heritage. Um, and so I was always kind of like studying other people and stuff and, and um, I was working on the archaeology work that I was doing was in Europe, actually in Serbia. So it's like something completely [laughs] outside of anything having to do with Asia or Japanese American... Um, uh, but I found that it was, it was at that time that I was wanting more out of what I was doing and I wasn't very satisfied. Um, and so that's when I, I didn't finish my doctorate. I got all the way to the end of, of my education there, the program, the PHD program, to the point of actually writing my dissertation and all of that. But I did not finish my, my doctorate degree because, um, it wasn't, I knew there was something lacking. There was too much else going on at the time. So this was during, you know, the Bush administration, -the second Bush- administration, all the things that was happening with Muslim Americans and all these kinds of other things. So I'm in Berkeley at this time and it just, you know, I couldn't, the work that I was doing, even though I, I- anthropology deals with culture and identity and other, many other things, I wasn't able to, I'd sort of pigeonholed myself. I put myself or painted myself into a corner where the kind of work I was doing was, I was never going to be able to express or to deal with what was going on in contemporary society. And so I left that and, and, um, started to do art and became an artist. So I went to art school and I went to the Minneapolis College of Art Design, um, after I moved to Minneapolis. And so it was there that all of this started to, to come out. And so what had happened was that I, in doing some work, I was interested in exploring the life of my mom's stepfather, which was the only grandfather that I knew. He's not my biological grandfather. His name was [Sachajo Tanabe?] and, but he was, he was, I always just knew him as Grandpa, you know, I didn't know the difference. It was only later that I knew he was, he was my mom's stepfather and he wa- he lived in Little Tokyo. We're talking about Japanangeles. He lived in Little Tokyo and he was murdered there in 1982 and that devastated me. It, it just had a, such a profound impact on me. And I always thought about him no matter what, you know, not connecting with my Japanese American identity or my family's history, but I, I would frequently think about him and just, it just, you know, that incident haunted me and it still does. Um, but anyways, so when I was becoming an artist, I was thinking about him in, in, you know, making work about him in some ways. And, and part of what, what I was thinking about was my family didn't really talk about him much anymore. You know, he died in 1982, and this is, this is already, you know, the two thousands or, and after. Um, and it was just a sense of him being forgotten and thinking about, you know, what's that memory of him going to be as time goes on. And, you know, and, you know, it really bothered me. So it was the sense of forgetting. And so, um, I started exploring his history and found out that he was incarcerated at Manzanar, um, and then I started thinking about all the people that were there and who they were and them being forgotten. And so instead of doing a project about him, I became interested in, um, the Japanese American incarceration and the people. And so it started with Manzanar, and actually went there and photographed the remains and the remnants of that. And that expanded into a larger project to where I went to all 10 of the war relocation authority, concentration camps, and photographed the remains, a lot of, you know, the physical remains that are still there. But it was really, you know, through him that I, I, I started to explore this history and then there was that. And then along with, um, my, my parents advanced age, so wanting to connect with them more and understand what their lives were like, what they had gone through, brought me back to this incarceration history. And so that started it. And then obviously I was, as I had mentioned, I was already searching for a way to, to engage with and talk about things that are going on in the present.JM: 37:43 And so that, you know, obviously, there's parallels between the
Japanese American incarceration and other forms of exclusion or incarceration of, of many different populations, um, within the United States presently, but also within, within the very recent past or, or paralleling that, you know, what had happened to Japanese Americans. And so it was a way for me to engage in those conversations where I wasn't co-opting someone else's history, that it, I, it gave me a voice or a-and allows me to do that. So, you know, now I work with the Japanese American Citizens League and in the Twin Cities and we've begun working with the, uh, Counsel on American Islamic Relations Care, their chapter in Minnesota. Um, but really, you know, it-it-that, so that connection, that connection through history, that and like my, so like my community's involvement with incarceration allows me to then, and my family's history of that, allows me to then engage in with where I see those connections in other communities. But I am very sensitive about, you know, speak, try- you know, not wanting to speak for another community, like having a right to kind of engage in those discussions or reason to engage in those discussions, um, without inserting myself. You know what I mean? It's this kind of thing of, cause that happens sometimes people, people, um, they, their intentions are good that they do have empathy for what people are going through, but they kind of come in and without knowing or having any sort of connection to any of the experiences of whatever's uh, community 's going through. Um, you know, kind of ended up sort of speaking for, taking over, or trying to control the narrative or something like that. And I was always very cautious of that. But I think that this, this, uh, this history is, and in my sort of understanding of it in my connection to it has allowed me to intervene in a way. So it gave me a pathway to, to engage other communities as well.AT: 40:03 So, um, as far as your, your actual involvement with, um, the Japanese
American community, um, did that, did that mostly start or happen for you in Minneapolis?JM: 40:21 Yeah. Yeah. And so I had not been a member of the JACL prior to that,
even despite living in California for so long. I think what it was too was that, um, I- living in California, I had only lived in California, well I'd, but-primarily had lived only in California before moving to, to Minnesota. Um, uh, there were short periods elsewhere, but, but despite that, I think what, I think what it was is, I kind of sort of, the presence of Asian Americans, um, around me, I kind of took that for granted. You know, cause I mostly lived in California and that, you know, and so going to UCLA, going to UC Berkeley, I mean both, both student populations are like 40% Asian American. And so when I came to, um, Minnesota in Minneapolis, I noticed that there were far fewer Asians. And so I started, I think that had an effect on me too where I started to really be like, wow, you know, I, I feel really kind of like stand out and I didn't know that much about Minneapolis or the Midwest as well. So there's also these sort of stereotypes of which, you know, I'm guilty of as well of, of the Midwest where, um, you know, it's just mostly Caucasians and it's sort of a Midwestern attitude and so you kind of, you're a little wary. So I was already sort of on edge a little bit, like I'm not sure how I'm going to be received. Um, and so, but I do-but I do think that that, that having that experience of feeling like, well, I stand out even more, um, made me seek out that community while I was also going through all of these transformations in terms of my own sense of identity. And so, um, I think those, those two things kind of come together around the same time. And so that had, you know, the sort of, um, compounded the, the effect on me.AT: 42:29 Um, I am keeping an eye on time and I want to make sure that you have-
JM: 42:33 -that's, that's fine [laughs]
AT: 42:36 -enough time to go around.
JM: 42:36 Oh yeah, there's en...[laughs]
AT: 42:46 Um, as we, as we wrap up, um, I'd love to hear from you, some, some of
the bigger picture questions, but um...JM: 42:58 Sure.
AT: 43:01 I mean...in your opinion, um...like what, what do we need to learn
from this history? Like what, what, what is like the crucial thing for people to understand and why is that something that is so important to you?JM: 43:24 Right. Um, I think that, and this is kind of for, for those that, that
engage with the history of the, the Japanese American incarceration, um, that there's this question, could it happen again? I think that's com- you know, for us it's, it's common. We kinda hear it a lot. Um, but I do think that it's an important question to pose to the general public, uh, particularly because they're not familiar with thinking about it in those terms. And, and I think that, you know, learning this history really- it, it says that it shows, it demonstrates that this happened and all the reasons why it happened. Um, and understanding that really, in the present context, really does allow you to kind of think through what are all the things that led to the incarceration of Japanese Americans. And are we seeing those things happening today? And I would say we are seeing those things happen today. You know, a, a kind of hysteria of, you know, um, prejudice, you know, uh, particularly based on race and religion. Um, um, and then, uh, another often stated cause is failure of political leadership. That is the, uh, not only, not only the executive branch of the government that is the president or whatnot, um, but also, uh, amongst the judicial, the Supreme Court. And so we see the Supreme Court in, in, uh, in the 1940s deferring to the military and saying, well, we're not gonna question. We don't feel like we're in that position of questioning, uh, the judgment in the military who said that the exclusion was necessary. Um, we see similar kinds of, not complete deference, but some deference in terms of the, uh, Muslim ban, um, right now. And so it's hard to know where the Supreme Court's going to go with that too. So I think that, and then obviously, um, Donald Trump is president and the kinds of things that he has, he has said, and his policies and what he's already done demonstrates this kind of failure of political leadership to, to protect the constitutional rights of, um, American citizens and also American- Americans who may not be citizens, but, but still are residents of the United States. Um, and so it's really important to reflect on this history and to have some underst- understanding of how it unfolded, um, so that it doesn't happen again, even though it is happening now. And so we have to think of ways that, you know, how do we challenge that? How can we challenge? And part of that is education, getting, getting the public to be aware, um, that this is going on. And uh, have an understanding of what had happened to Japanese Americans, but then also what's going on now and to hopefully convince them that it was wrong and that they will stand up because the politicians will eventually follow the public if there's enough of the public who, who, um, uh, stand up against certain policies. Um, during, during the wartime, the, the population in California influenced the politicians there to support the exclusion of Japanese Americans. But if they had been against it, I don't think that the politicians would have been so inflammatory in terms of their rhetoric towards, towards that. They were just sort of following what their constituency was, was, um, was suggesting. And so I think that if enough people stand up to a point where actually does put pressure on politicians, they will, they will follow whatever their, you know, the voters will go. And so I think it's really about educating the, the, um, the general public. Um, I know that there's been engagement with, you know, trying to convince politicians of certain things. And I don't, I, I question if that's effective even when you try to educate the politicians because they're- they can be quite self-serving and wanting to stay in office. And so they kind of, um, aren't so, um, aggressive in terms of promoting certain policies that may or may not be popular amongst their voters. And so they're very careful about how they go about things regardless of what they actually think. And so I, but I think that the, that having the voters, the general public know and be very vocal about this is where it's at. And I think that begins with education, knowing what it is that you're vocal about. And I do think education is important too because I think, um, just sort of your moral values and feeling that something is wrong is not enough. That you're not going to convince people by saying, oh, that's wrong, it's immoral or whatever. I think you really do need to know the facts of the history or the present situation in order to, um, combat those that support, um, you know, immigration bans or support, um, bigoted or, or racist views. Um, because what I would say is don't underestimate those people. That there is a sense that, that those that are more left leaning or support, you know, immigrants and refugees and are against racism, that they, that they tend to portray the, those on the other side as ignorant. And I think that that's a very dangerous way of approaching it because what I'm finding is that you're finding people on the other side who actually are very well argued and well thought out in terms of their, their, um, their stance and why they believe what they believe. And they're not necessarily, you know, dumb people. I think they're misguided. I, I disagree with, with their, with their, uh, but, but I think having a respect for their intelligence is important because, um, you don't want to underestimate them and that, what that means is you have to be educated as well and you have to be well prepared so that if you come into a confrontation to where you're, you know, either debating or whatever, whatever kind of thing with them, that you're well prepared to counter the argument with facts and with evidence and with a logical, you know, thought and information and not just, not just, um, your gut or your heart, you know. That's, that's a good place to start, to have that emotion, but you have to back it up. And so, and so that's kind of my long winded response to, to just saying that education is extremely important and why the facts of this past are very important to understand and to convey to people.AT: 50:31 One last thing I'd like to ask you about is just, um, you, you've
touched on, um, working with other communities of color, other communities that are experiencing different kinds of, um, systemic violence or oppression. Um, that the, the Japanese American story can- has potential to um, shine light on certain injustices. Um, but especially in, in this kind of work of, of trying to build those connections and those, um, cross cultural or cross community bridges. Um, one thing I'd love to hear from you is your thoughts about what needs to-what kind of work needs to be done within the Japanese American community in terms of, um, really calling out and confronting certain issues that exist within our own community. So I'm, I'm speaking specifically of some of the pr-prejudice that exists in the, I think Japanese American communities across the country, whether it's anti-blackness or homophobia or transphobia. Um, you know, there is classism, you know, I think there are a lot of these, um, issues that, that, you know, a lot of communities are guilty of themselves. So I guess my question to you is, um, with, what do you think needs to, how can we build true solidarity with other communities and really use this story is kind of a, a platform or a start of the conversation?JM: 52:38 I think part of it is, has to do with, um, the youth in our community,
in the Japanese American community. I do find that there's a generational, and this is sort of normal, but generational differences that is the, that is the college age, younger, younger, um, uh, individuals from the Japanese American community tend to be more open minded. They tend to be not- because they're growing up in an era where, you know, being outwardly racist is wrong, or at least it used to, you know, [laughs] maybe it's, it's- being more, unfortunately, being more accepted than, than, um, obviously then we would like, um, but in an era where there is, there is that sort of, that it's socially unacceptable to, to report certain kinds of views. Um, that wasn't the case in earlier generations where it- we lived in a society that was very, you know, homophobic and not open to LGBTQ and, and, and then also was very racist. And so, um, so I do think that that, it's not that I'm writing off the older generations, but I do think it's, it's, it's as we move forward, it's really about ensuring the youth in our community have an understanding of this history, but also within the context of what's going on with other communities. And so, um, um, like I know here in, in Chicago that there's the Kansha Project, right? And then there's also the Bridging Communities, um, thing. So those, those two, those two projects that, that really bring communities together, but they're bringing the youth together. And so th-th- I think that's really significant in terms of, and it's not just, "Oh, well we're Japanese American, so we're going to learn Japanese American history and then we're just going to say, oh, well we can go talk to, to, you know, Muslim youths" or whatever. Um, it's, it's saying, "No, well, you're going to learn your own history and then you're gonna learn about Muslim American, um, history and identity experience as well". And so we're going to bring these two communities and vice versa with, with, um, Muslim American youth. And so it is this thing of say, bringing communities together, but also while they're young and, and to build this kind of understanding and experience. Because I think a lot of, you know, a lot of bigotry and racism really is rooted in ideas people have about other people that they have no real experience with. That is they don't get to know these other communities that they're bigoted against. Um, that there's just ideas that they have about them. I mean, most, I would be almost certain that most people that are currently have issues with are bigoted against, or racist against, or however you want to phrase it, against Muslim Americans, don't know any Muslim Americans, have never known any Muslim Americans. Um, and I think that, that, that key to sort of breaking down some of those barriers is, is bringing these communities together. And so it is finding ways, finding ways to do that. And I think for us it's that, it's that mutual mutual history. It allows some sort of connection to be made. Um, but, you know, it's, it's hard, like you kind of bringing up that the issues within our own community as far as the racism, but, but again, I think that it's hard, it's, you're going to be hard if, if you, someone who's in their seventies or eighties in our community who has these racist views towards other groups, we're not going to, we're not going to change who they are at this point. I really don't think that that's going to happen, but I do think we can affect, um, the youth, cause they're still being shaped. Their, their perspectives on the world is being sh-shaped. And, and as others say, no one comes into this world learning how to hate other people. You know, they don't, they're not, it's not an innate thing. You, you, you learn, um, hatred towards others. And so, you know, then you learned that very young. And so that's where we have to really hit that. And that goes for all communities. It's not just the Japanese American community, yeah.AT: 57:11 Um, before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to add or
that we might've missed?JM: 57:17 Um, no. [laughs] I think we covered...
AT: 57:21 Quite a bit of ground. Well, thank you so much for, for coming in and speaking.
JM: 57:25 Thank you, thank you for having me.
