[NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain
errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.]Anna Takada: 00:00:00 This is an interview with Anna Marie Nakamura as part of
Alphawood Galleries Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition, Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II and the Demise of Civil Liberties. Today is October 22nd, 2017 at about 1:20 PM and we are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Anna Marie Nakamura is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name?Anna M Nakamura: 00:00:40 It's Anna Marie Aiko Nakamura.
AT: 00:00:44 And um, can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born?
AMN: 00:00:51 Ah, I was born May 1st, 1924 in Los Angeles, California, um,
delivered by a midwife.AT: 00:01:01 And, um, what was L.A. like at the time when you were growing up?
Can you describe it a little bit?AMN: 00:01:08 Oh, well, um, it was a regular city as I recall. We lived in Boyle
Heights, which is East L.A., I believe. And I kind of recall, it was a small bungalow type house. My father passed away when I was four years old and left my mom with three small children. My younger brother was two, I was four and my older brother was seven. So after he passed away, um, my dad ran a farmer supply store and upstairs there was like a, um, rooming house and my mom decided to make a living working, you know, uh, running the place. So we moved to, uh, I think it was 727 East 1st Street in Los Angeles, which was at that time like, um, they call it Little Tokyo because there were a lot of Japanese American, you know, Japanese people that lived there. And so I grew up until, I think I was 11 or 12, and I went to a, um, mission school run by the Maryknoll Nuns until ninth grade.AT: 00:02:55 So, uh, it sounds like the area where you grew up there were, you
knew other Japanese American families.AMN: 00:03:06 Um, there, it was called Little Tokyo. Um, all Japanese stores,
shoe stores, hotels, restaurants, dry goods, and um, I, it's basically downtown Los Angeles where I grew up. And then when I was about 11 or 12, we moved to area called Boyle Heights, and it was all, it was another Japanese community, you know, and I went to, um, after Maryknoll was up to ninth grade and then I went to a Sacred Heart Academy, which is a Catholic girls high school. Um, I can't remember the location, but uh, I, just when I was a senior and ready to graduate, Pearl Harbor, you know, happened and we went into camp in May and my graduation would have been in June. So I didn't get to graduate with my class, we were in camp by then. And.AT: 00:04:22 Can you tell me a little bit about, um, your, your family and how
they ended up in L.A. in the first place?AMN: 00:04:32 You know, my dad came from Japan with his cousin, 190--, I'm not
sure on date. I think it was 1903 or 5, somewhere in there. Um, I don't know why they moved to Los Angeles, but they both came to Los Angeles and o--, like I said, open up a farmer's supply store. And, um, it's my dad, my mom said my dad, uh, died from a ruptured appendix and she, you know, left her with three little children. So, uh, she ran a, like a little, a small hotel, transient hotel and over the store that my dad, you know, ran with, um, his cousin.AT: 00:05:35 So was, did his cousin continue the business?
AMN: 00:05:37 He ran the store after my dad died and my mom took in boarders
upstairs. Though, it was very small, I can't remember how many rooms, but probably not more than 10, 12 rooms. Um, and I went to, like I said, a Catholic school run by the Maryknoll Nuns. And when I was about 11 or 12, we moved to Boyle Heights and we moved in with my uncle and his wife and they had a little boy, I think two, and a big house. And I don't remember, we didn't live there very long.AT: 00:06:30 At home did you, did you speak Japanese with your family?
AMN: 00:06:34 Oh, to my mom, yes. But, uh, to the, uh, first generation,
although my uncle spoke English. Both my uncles spoke English. And, uh, his wife was born in Hawai'i, so of course she spoke English. Yeah, I spoke Japanese to the, what we call, Issei, the first generation Japanese, but the rest of the, always English.AT: 00:07:02 Hmm. And what about activities outside of school? Did you go to church?
AMN: 00:07:07 Belonged to the Girl Scouts. We used to play handball. Um, this
school was bordered by factories and they had nice, clear walls. So we would play handball, uh, badminton. Uh, after church on Sunday, the young people always stayed after church and, uh, played badminton or, yeah, no games or socialized.AT: 00:07:36 What kind of church did your family belong to?
AMN: 00:07:39 Uh, Catholic, uh, went... My cousin's children were going to
Catholic school and when my dad died, he told my mom, the nuns were very strict and you know, since you don't have a husband anymore, and I had two brothers, uh, it would be good for the boys to have strict nuns to keep in check. And so that's how I went to Maryknoll, which was in downtown, uh, near where we lived. And.AT: 00:08:18 Did you, uh, go to Japanese school?
AMN: 00:08:22 After school, uh, English school, we did have Japanese classes.
Um, they had, um, Japanese Catholic nuns. Um, but I hated classes, so I was not a very good student.AT: 00:08:42 Why, why did you hate classes?
AMN: 00:08:44 Hm?
AT: 00:08:44 Why did you hate classes?
AMN: 00:08:48 I thought it was a waste of time to learn Japanese, I guess. And
you know, you have enough of a school day, you want to be out playing with your friends, but it took up another hour of your day to go stay in class. So, um, I didn't learn a lot.AT: 00:09:10 And um, can you tell me, uh, a little more about, um, your
experience in the high school and what happened when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor? Do you remember where you were that day?AMN: 00:09:27 Oh yes. Um, we had gone to church and we were playing in the
auditorium, um, when somebody came in and said that Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor and I remember thinking, what's going to happen now? And we all scattered to go home. I lived in Boyle Heights. I had to take a bus from where I was and I remember going on the bus and feeling self conscious because I knew, I looked, oriental, ya know. And when we got home we all discussed about what was going to happen and uh, it was, and then going to school the next day, I remember they had an assembly and there were five of us, Japanese Americans. It was a small Catholic high school, girls high school and the principal saying she didn't want any problems with any of the students and um, but it was kind of uncomfortable for a couple of days. But after that, you know, it was okay.AT: 00:10:58 And so you had, you were a senior in high school, which would mean
that um, one of your brothers was also in high school.AMN: 00:11:07 My brother, um, went to the local high school. My two, two
brothers went to the local high school in our neighborhood and he by then had graduated. He was working for a, uh, he went to school to study auto body fender work. So he had found a job in a garage and he was working in a garage. And of course my younger brother was still in school.AT: 00:11:42 Do you know, um, what their experiences were like?
AMN: 00:11:48 Um, my brother was not in camp very long. Um, my uncle had friends
that, uh, Idaho had some, uh, Japanese farmers and they were looking for workers. So my uncle asked my brother if he would like to go to work on one of the farms. And of course my brother wanted to get out of camp, so he went to work until, um, he was drafted for the army. And,AT: 00:12:22 And what about, um, Pearl Harbor? Um.
AMN: 00:12:27 I'm trying to remember. I don't remember any of, um, aside from,
you know, we wondered what, what was going to happen. Um, like I said, I don't have that many memories. All I know is they started, um, eventually, you know, they were talking about they were going to move us to a camp. And, um, like I said, my brother, younger brother was sophomore in high school, freshman or sophomore. Um, my older brother, uh, he was working in the garage then. So, um.AT: 00:13:19 You said that your, your family, the day of the attack of Pearl
Harbor, you had a conversation...AMN: 00:13:26 You know, I, I don't remember, um, anything during that time
whether we talked about camp, you know, lot of rumors I suppose, but I don't remember as a family. It's too long ago whether we had any conversation of what was going to happen.AT: 00:13:52 And then, um, what about when the evacuation orders went out? Um.
AMN: 00:13:59 Well, um, they gave us such a short time that, uh, well my, um, we
didn't have a father to, you know, direct us or anything. I remember my mom trying to get rid of the furniture and I think, the funny thing I remember she sold our dining room set to somebody for $5. And I remember my mom complaining that my older brother should be home helping us pack and he was out helping somebody else. But you know, outside from that, uh, all I remember is we got rid of all our furniture. And, um, our friend, my mom had a friend who owned a hotel and, uh, they said, come on, stay at the hotel until we have to evacuate. So we moved to the hotel, oh, probably two weeks before we were sent to camp. And so from this hotel, uh, they told us to gather at the Catholic Church where there were buses waiting and we went to Manzanar, because my brother had volunteered to go up and help build the camp and he liked what he saw. So, um, he was able to sign us up for Manzanar, so that's how we ended up in Manzanar.AT: 00:15:49 And your older brother, was he living at home at this point or was he?
AMN: 00:15:55 Um, he was living at home, but, uh, during the farming season, he
lived up in Idaho. I think it was Idaho Falls. And so, um, he wasn't around. And then, you know, when he was back in L.A., he worked at the garage. So.AT: 00:16:22 Um, do you remember the, the buses and how you actually got to camp?
AMN: 00:16:30 Well, I remember we had to meet at the Catholic church and then
we, you know, um, there were just buses. We just got on the bus. Um.AT: 00:16:45 Do you remember how long that trip was?
AMN: 00:16:52 Oh, from L.A. to Manzanar, I don't remember how long from L.A. to
San Francisco. I think by train it was six hours. Manzanar was toward Nevada, probably six hours or so to camp, maybe longer.AT: 00:17:24 Um, I mean, given that you were a senior in high school, um, you
know, with, with graduation kind of on, on the horizon, um, given that it was, you know, around the spring time, um, as a teenager, how did you feel having to make these trips?AMN: 00:17:48 Well, I was upset because I would have been graduating in June and
here we were leaving in May and I miss, I was going to miss every, you know, my graduation and I'm scared of what was going to happen to us mostly. Um, but, you know, um, looking back, I don't think, my mom, the, I, I think our parents had a rougher time than, you know, when you're 17 years old, you don't worry about the family, like, you know, your parents would. So, uh, like I said, it's too long ago. I really, all I remember when we got to camp, it was so desolate, uh, and it, it was, you know, we didn't know what was going to happen, so that's about all I remember when we first saw the camp.AT: 00:19:01 Just that it was, it was desolate?
AMN: 00:19:04 Oh yes. My, a desert, you know, it's, it's all desert and right in
the middle of the desert, you see the army barracks, you know, which became our camp. But, um.AT: 00:19:19 What was the weather like?
AMN: 00:19:24 Oh, um, California, dry, hot, uh, though, when we were there
amazingly one winter when it snowed, I couldn't believe, you know. But by midday it melted. But most of the time as hot, windy, dusty, um. The dust storms are incredible. And once they paved the street, you know, made streets and paved, uh, and uh, people planted gardens, uh, it improved a lot. It made a big difference. And then we started, uh, farming, you know, they grew tom-, well we, the camp grew their own vegetables. So it was a pretty big farm. When you have, I think there are 10,000 people in our camp.AT: 00:20:24 Did you know anyone in camp that you knew from back home?
AMN: 00:20:27 Well, my cousin and his family. Um, aside from that, I don't
remember anybody else. My other relatives all went to Heart Mountain. So basically it was my cousin's family and our, our, you know, our, four of us, my mom and my two brothers and myself. When you're young, you know, you adapt a lot easier, I think than they older people did.AT: 00:21:10 And so, um, what did you do in camp? Did you return to school?
AMN: 00:21:16 Oh, um, they assign jobs and so I was assigned as a nurse's aid at
the camp hospital in the children's ward. And I don't remember how long I was there. I caught German Measles from one of the patients and I was so sick, you know, when an adult catches measles. So after I recovered, they made me a receptionist at the hospital. So I took the, that was my job until I left camp.AT: 00:21:55 Um, what'd you, do you remember how long you were sick? Did you
stay at home in the barracks or did you stay at the hospital?AMN: 00:22:05 Oh, I was in the hospital. Um, no, I don't know. Uh, I don't know
how long I stayed in the hospital, but, um, I was in the children's ward because it's a children's disease, you know, the, uh, they had a separate part of the, uh, barracks for the contagious disease ward, they call it. And I was there until I got over my measles.AT: 00:22:36 Do you remember how you got that job? Did you have to apply or did
you know someone?AMN: 00:22:41 I don't remember. Um, I think they assigned us to different jobs,
but I'm not quite sure.AT: 00:22:57 And how long was your family in, in Manzanar?
AMN: 00:23:02 Two and a half years. '42, '43, I think came back, I think it was
two and a half years I was in camp. I got married in camp and...AT: 00:23:28 Tell me more about that? Can you tell me more about getting married
in camp?AMN: 00:23:31 Well, when we were, um, we closed up our house and moved to the
hotel, my husband was a night clerk there, going to college and that's how we met. He asked me out on a date and I remember my mom was very unhappy because I was only 17 and he was 24 or something, so he would, we couldn't go out unless my brother came along as a chaperone.AT: 00:24:13 Your older brother?
AMN: 00:24:14 My younger brother, which he hated. So we never went out on a date
by ourselves. And, and then, um, we got married in camp.AT: 00:24:27 So he was also at Manzanar?
AMN: 00:24:30 Yes. Um, luckily, yeah, he was assigned to Manzanar. So we were in
the same camp.AT: 00:24:41 And at what point did you get, at what point did you decide to get married?
AMN: 00:24:47 Oh, gosh. I don't know. We never, um.
AT: 00:24:53 Or when did you get married?
AMN: 00:24:57 February 28, 1944? Yeah, it was, I remember it was a leap year, so
I don't know whether it was the 28th or the 29th.AT: 00:25:16 And um, was there some kind of process? Did you have to fill out
paperwork or how did that work to get married in camp?AMN: 00:25:25 Uh, yeah, we had to go get it from the County C Bishop. Uh, I
don't remember. All I remember is that the certificate was the county of Inyo County, Bishop, California, because I had to get a copy and I had to write to the county to get a copy. Um, I really don't know who made the arrangements. Uh, probably the priest at the church guided us because, you know, he hadn't, they had a lot of weddings. But like I said, it's too long ago. I really don't remember.AT: 00:26:20 Do you remember other folks getting married in camp? Was that
pretty common or?AMN: 00:26:26 What?
AT: 00:26:26 Do you remember other people getting married in camp? Was that common?
AMN: 00:26:30 Oh yeah, there, they had a Buddhist church, a Christian church,
Catholic church. Um, it's uh, you know, 10,000, lot a people. It's a lot of marriages, I'm sure.AT: 00:26:52 Um, yeah, getting requested to stop [filming stops].
AMN: 00:26:57 And, um, because in Japan you don't marry for love, a family, they
go into your family background to see if there's anybody that had mental problems because they won't let you. And there were certain, uh, cast, um, type of people. Uh, there was one who are butchers. They won't let you marry into a family that are butchers because it's really low class. So when you want to get married, they get, they call it a baishakuni. It was just a go-between. And their job is to go into the backgrounds of both families to make sure it's the right arrangement, you know: both family have the same background and there's nothing bad in the background. So that's how we had a baishakuni. Um, it was not, in the first, uh, what we call the first generation Japanese, our parents, uh, never married for love. It was always an arranged marriage and that was the baishakuni, the go-between.AT: 00:28:08 And so who, that was, uh, an individual doing that? And they did
that for?AMN: 00:28:14 Uh, it was, just a token thing. You know, uh, we didn't think it
was necessary, but, uh, um, my mom said it was the proper thing to have a go-between. So at the wedding, you know, um, my husband's family was in Japan. He was here with his brother. So, um, uh, we had another couple friend who, uh, took his parents' place and then we had the go-between. And so in the wedding picture, there's the whole group.AT: 00:28:56 So you were able to have a, a photograph of the, the wedding.
AMN: 00:29:02 Oh, we had a regular church wedding. And like I said, we had two
cakes. The camp made us a wedding cake. And, uh, I don't know who had ordered a cake from Los Angeles. They shipped it and arrived the day before the wedding. So we had two wedding cakes, which was very nice. Everybody had a lot of a cake.AT: 00:29:30 Do you know who ordered that?
AMN: 00:29:32 I have, it's too long ago. I don't remember who ordered it. And of
course, no honeymoon. There was, we just got a new, uh, they assigned us a new room in one of the barracks and so we just moved in there and um, during I think the next fall when my husband went out to Utah to work on the farms, um, I went to work in a tomato cannery canning tomatoes just to go see him out there. And that was our honeymoon I think in Salt Lake City for two days that we got together. But that was fun.AT: 00:30:32 What kind of farm was he working on? Do you know?
AMN: 00:30:34 Potatoes, picking potatoes, Idaho, you know Idaho potatoes?
[Laughs] And, uh, Utah had a big tomato, uh, farms and they can lots of tomatoes. I didn't want to eat tomatoes for a while after I got back to camp [chuckles].AT: 00:30:55 How long were you out of camp?
AMN: 00:30:58 Ah, two weeks. I think it was two weeks to Kenalog [Kenalog?] at
that particular cannery. It's seasonal, well, you know, tomato, do you have to do it really fast because it doesn't keep, and so, but it was fun. It was great to get out of camp and, uh, be outside like we used to say.AT: 00:31:27 And your husband, um, was he, uh, working on the potato farm for
longer than?AMN: 00:31:33 Oh yeah. Um, gosh, I don't know how many weeks they would work out
there, but they would go work different farms. They'd, once they'd finish one farm, so they, he worked at several farms in Idaho.AT: 00:31:52 And then can you tell me about, um, so you said your family was in
Manzanar for probably about two and a half years. Um, what, what happened then after two and a half years?AMN: 00:32:09 Oh. Um, my husband had a friend who had gone to Chicago and he
wrote and said that there were jobs available in Chicago, so why don't we come and he would find a place for us to live. So then we decided we'll go to Chicago because you don't know how long the war is gonna last. And we didn't want to be staying in camp, you know, so that's how we got to Chicago.AT: 00:32:37 So it was just you and your husband?
AMN: 00:32:41 Mhm. And then, um, when they were ready, getting ready to close
the camp, uh, we told my mom and my younger brother who was still in camp to come and join us. So they came to Chicago and joined us in Chicago. In the meantime, my brother had been drafted, so he was in Europe.AT: 00:33:07 This was your older brother?
AMN: 00:33:13 Mhm.
AT: 00:33:13 And um, so you and your husband came to Chicago first. Um, where
did you end up living in the city?AMN: 00:33:23 Oh, when we first came to Chicago. Oh, this room, my husband's
friend found us this room on the North Side. Oh, Gosh. Lawrence, Lawrence Avenue. Anyway, we walked into that room and it was full of bed bugs, so we couldn't stay there. So I think we probably stayed at some hotel the first night. I don't remember how long until we found another apartment and I think it was on the North Side to Winthrop. I remember the street, I don't remember the address. And we lived there, oh gosh. Can't remember how long we lived there. And then we moved down to... [turns to another person in the room] Hey Gayle, do you remember when, when we lived in Hampden Court, was it, how old were you?Gayle: 00:34:43 I think I was still a baby. You didn't live on Winthrop that
long. I'm sorry.AT: 00:34:53 No, please.
AMN: 00:34:54 No, [speaker thinking aloud]
G: 00:34:54 You didn't live on Winthrop that long.
AMN: 00:34:56 I think right after you were born,
G: 00:34:57 Right.
AMN: 00:34:58 we moved to Chi-- to, uh, Hampden Court. That was,
G: 00:35:05 That would be early 1946.
AMN: 00:35:10 Yeah, because you were born in 45.
G: 00:35:12 Yeah.
AT: 00:35:15 Sorry.
G: 00:35:16 That would have been bad. [laughter about potential accident out of
camera view]AT: 00:35:20 Um, so, sorry. Just to clarify, so Gail was born in '46.
AMN: 00:35:26 '45.
AT: 00:35:26 '45. Um, and you said that was when you moved, um, to Hampden
Court, is that right?G: 00:35:38 Um, I was born in August of '45 and then they moved in '46, maybe
beginning of '46 you think?AMN: 00:35:47 Oh, to Hampden Court. Yeah. And I'm trying to remember when we
moved to Diversey.G: 00:35:57 Oh, I was 10 years old.
AMN: 00:35:58 Oh, so, uh, '55.
G: 00:36:02 Yeah. But you should describe Hampton Court 'cause that was a
fairly, um, that was a Japanese...AMN: 00:36:11 Oh, it was, uh, quite a, how many room apartment do you think that
were there? Two, four, six, eight, ten.G: 00:36:20 Well it was almost the whole block was Japanese.
AMN: 00:36:21 12.
G: 00:36:23 Well, you mean in Hampton Court?
AMN: 00:36:29 Two on each floor. Apartment two, four, six, eight, two, four,
six, eight, ten.G: 00:36:36 So maybe 16 to 20 apartments.
AMN: 00:36:39 Not 20.
G: 00:36:40 There weren't any in the middle?
AMN: 00:36:41 No. There was one apartment at the end of the hall there.
G: 00:36:46 Yeah.
AMN: 00:36:47 So two, four, six, eight, ten...
G: 00:36:50 Describe them to Anna.
AMN: 00:36:50 13, maybe 13 apartments. Understand it was a Jewish, something for
the Jewish community, and they had made into apartments, I guess used to be an office or something. But anyway, my mom's friend bought that building and asked my mom if we'd like to move there. So that's when we moved to, uh, Hampden Court in Chicago.AT: 00:37:22 This was an Issei friend, had bought it?
AMN: 00:37:26 So it was right after Gail was born.
G: 00:37:30 Oh, she couldn't hear you. Mom?
AMN: 00:37:33 Mm.
G: 00:37:33 She said it was, so it was an Issei?
AMN: 00:37:35 Hm?
G: 00:37:35 Your mom's friend was an Issei, is that what you meant?
AMN: 00:37:39 Yeah.
G: 00:37:40 Yeah. She, it was an Issei who bought the Hampden building.
AMN: 00:37:44 She, she and her husband bought the building. And, uh, so asked my
mom if we wanted to move there. So that's why we moved to Hamden Court, Obuchi's.AT: 00:37:56 So then did you live there with your husband, your mom and your brother?
AMN: 00:38:00 Yes, my mom and my brother rented another apartment. Uh, I think
it was on floor below us. Yeah. And we lived there, oh goodness. You said you were 10 when we moved to Hanamoto, Gail?AT: 00:38:26 Yeah, she said it was 10 years. So in '55, about.
AMN: 00:38:32 Yeah, we moved to Hanamoto on Diversey.
AT: 00:38:36 And um, what was that, that area or that neighborhood like when you
were living there?AMN: 00:38:44 Oh! It was, um, typical Chicago neighborhood. Very nice. You know,
it's a Lake View area, a great location because we were close to, um, Clark and Diversey where you have all the stores and everything. There was a department store at that time and Walgreens, you know, but it was really a good neighborhood.AT: 00:39:14 Uh, were there, do you remember any Japanese American businesses or stores?
AMN: 00:39:19 You know, most of the Japanese Americans settle around Division
and Broadway and Clark. Was it Clark?AT: 00:39:28 Clark and Division?
AMN: 00:39:30 Yeah, on Division. Um, they had, um, uh, restaurants. Um, like I
said, it was, there were quite a few that lived right in that area. Where we were living on the North Side, no. Um, I think there were more people from Vietnam later on, but, um, there was another fam, Japanese family, lived on the next block, but I think we were the only one in that area that were, you know, Japanese ancestry.AT: 00:40:23 And what, um, what were you and your husband doing for work when
you moved here?AMN: 00:40:31 Gosh, you know, I worked for the War Labor Board until I had her
and I didn't go back to work until my youngest daughter was born 18 years later. Um, then I went to work in my company where my husband worked in a office. Ah, I, you know what I used to do? I used to, um, uh, type envelopes. There was a company that, uh, I think it's a marketing company, that need typists, today they don't have such thing, but to type addresses. And you had to go pick up, and I think, I used to pick up, boy, 2000 full boxes. I think there were 200, and I would type at home.AT: 00:41:38 And, uh, your husband, what kind of work was he doing when you
first came to Chicago?AMN: 00:41:46 The first job he had was a janitor at, uh, a surgical implement
manufacturing. I still remember, [Ditsuken?] shoveling snow off the sidewalk ,and that was his first job. And then he got a job at this, uh, uh, company that, uh, uh, sold, uh, plywood, plywood lumber, and had, um, mail room, you know, they fabricated things and he went to work there and he worked there for, whoa, how many years, Gail? 34? Well, he spent the rest of his...oh no, I take it back. When did dad work at Northwestern?G: 00:42:55 When you first got here. That was the job he had.
AMN: 00:42:59 Oh, after he shoveled the snow. Oh, that's right. Uh, he got. Uh,
Northwestern was looking for, uh, Japanese language teachers to teach American officers Japanese when the war was over. So they recruited my husband. So he worked at Northwestern University teaching Japanese to army officers until the war ended. I think. I don't, I don't remember how long after that. And after that he went to work at Maywood.G: 00:43:38 National Tea.
AMN: 00:43:40 Where?
G: 00:43:40 He worked at National Tea, I thought, as a butcher?
AMN: 00:43:44 Oh no, as a night supervisor.
G: 00:43:48 Clubs.
AMN: 00:43:50 What's it after?
AT: 00:43:51 No butchers in the family.
G: 00:43:52 No best friend, no butchers in the family. [laughter]
AMN: 00:43:55 Oh, that's right. That was not for long though.
G: 00:43:59 Oh.
AMN: 00:44:00 It was a night job. That's right. He was a, he--
G: 00:44:04 He was fired, as I recall, wasn't he?
AMN: 00:44:08 Oh yeah. The night worker that collected all the meat orders, they
were stealing meat. My husband didn't even know it, but the company said that since he was a supervisor, uh, they had to fire him. So that's how he lost that job. And then he went to work at Maywood. That's right. I completely forgot.G: 00:44:35 Didn't he work at Jefferson Ice? Jefferson.
AT: 00:44:39 Jefferson Ice?
G: 00:44:39 Jefferson Ice?
AMN: 00:44:42 Hm?
G: 00:44:42 He worked at Jefferson Ice?
AMN: 00:44:46 No, he worked putting ice in railroad cars, refrigerator cars one
summer between jobs. He lost 50 pounds. That was the best job he ever had [laughs], because he was quite heavy.G: 00:45:06 He ate 10 bowls of rice a night for dinner.
AT: 00:45:08 Oh.
G: 00:45:08 And used to buy it 100 pound bags.
AMN: 00:45:14 Oh, I had forgotten about that.
AT: 00:45:16 Where did you buy your rice and, and groceries from?
AMN: 00:45:21 Oh, uh, Star Market on Division. Was It on Division? Clark Street.
Clark Street.G: 00:45:32 Yeah. By Wrigley Field.
AMN: 00:45:34 Yeah. They had a Japanese food store where they sold Japanese
food. So we would go there to buy rice and whatever we needed.G: 00:45:48 Grandma, remember grandma worked at Curtis Candies.
Another Speaker: 00:45:52 Oh yeah.
AMN: 00:45:53 Oh my gra-- my mom. My mom worked at Curtis Candy and at
Christmas, um, the company would give all their employees a huge box of their goodies and the kids couldn't wait for Christmas because they would get this big box of candy.AT: 00:46:15 What did she do at the, at Curtis Candy?
AMN: 00:46:18 I think she worked on the line. Uh, I don't know whether she was a
wrapper or whatever. All I remember is, uh, Christmas and the kids. They tried to unionize the company, but the company was so good to the workers that they couldn't get it to join the union. And then they moved to, Curtis moved to the suburbs somewhere so she had to quit.AT: 00:46:58 Do you remember, um, some of your first or early impressions of
Chicago? I imagine it was probably your first time ever coming to Chicago?AMN: 00:47:08 Oh yeah. Our first impression, it was cold and we had summer
clothes on. So the first thing we had to do is buy some winter clothes. So I remember we went to Rothschild. Now, I don't know how we ended up in Rothschild instead of Sears Roebuck [laughs], but we went in there to buy some winter clothes. That was my first impression of Chicago. It was a week, it was December, I think we came in December, and it was cold. And we looked, um, I remember we were standing, um, State and um, gee, First National Bank. Adams? Was the, uh, the big main bank, I think it was on it Ad--. Anyway, we were standing on a corner corner with our summer clothes on and some man came up then and said, you look like strangers, can I help you? And we said, "We're looking for our bank." And he said, "Oh, First National Bank is right down the street" So we went down and opened up our account and then we went looking for winter clothes. That's how out of place we must have looked [laughs].AT: 00:48:28 And what about as far as, um, just general neighborhoods and the
city itself? How did it compare to what, um, where you came from?AMN: 00:48:43 From L.A. You know, I don't, I don't think we even thought about
any difference or how big it was or anything. I think we were concentrating on getting settled finding a place to live and getting a job more than anything than what kind of a place. You know, aside from being cold, and I'm not used to the cold because I grew up in Southern California, I don't remember having much of an impression of Chicago, by much. We were too busy getting going, I think.AT: 00:49:20 Were there, did you experience any challenges when you first came
here besides needing to find winter clothing?AMN: 00:49:28 No, I don't think so. Um, I don't even remember. All I know is I
got a job at the War Labor Board and I had to get a physical to go work there. It was a government requirement. So I went to the doctor to get a physical and she said, do you know you're pregnant? I said, no. And that was December and you were born in August. So I didn't work very long. I, I can't remember when I quit working. May, I might've worked to May. And after that I stayed home until, well, like I said, I used to get typing work at, brought it home and I would, you know, type envelopes at home, but I didn't go out to work, oh, for many years.AT: 00:50:46 And so from, uh, Lake View and Hampden Court, uh, you moved, uh,
down to Clark and Diversey?AMN: 00:50:57 No, we... Yeah. Um, there was a couple that bought this building,
two flat on Diversey and asked if we would like to move in the second floor. So that's how we went to live in Diversey. And we were there for seven years?G: 00:51:22 No, I would say
AMN: 00:51:23 Uh, Joan... Kathy was born there in '55.
G: 00:51:30 We moved to Highland Park in '64.
AMN: 00:51:33 We moved to Highland Park in '64. Yeah, the year Joany was born.
Well, that's about 10 years.AT: 00:51:41 How many children do you have?
AMN: 00:51:47 I had three sets of family. Gail and Claire are 18 months apart.
Then I didn't have any babies until my son was born six years later. And then I had my son Guy. Two years later I had Cassie, and then I didn't have any kids, how many years between Ca--, 10?G: 00:52:13 Nine.
AMN: 00:52:14 Nine between Kathy and my youngest, Joan, I was 40 when I had
Joan. So there's 18 years. She was a freshman at U of I when I had my youngest and I was carrying a baby at my daughter's wedding. I think Joan was two years, two years when Claire got married, which was the funniest thing if you ever thought about it. The father, the mother of the bride carrying a baby. Right?AS: 00:52:47 Yeah.
AT: 00:52:50 And um, so just to take it back a little bit, um, uh, Clark and
Diversey, is that, but is that still considered Lake View, so you're just on a different side of the neighborhood? I think nowadays.AS: 00:53:09 Yeah. Yeah. I mean we lived closer to Halsted, Center on Halsted.
AMN: 00:53:26 It was a nice neighborhood.
AS: 00:53:27 Diversey was like a mile away from Hampden Court. So it wasn't like
that far away from where you, when you lived on Hampden Court.AMN: 00:53:39 Yeah, it's about the same. It's a Chicago neighborhood. It was,
yeah. No, it's a nice neighborhood to grow up in. Of course Diversey was commercial. We were right on Diversey, which is, you know, shops and everything. But um, typical Chicago neighborhood.AT: 00:54:02 Were you, were there other Japanese American families in the neighborhood?
AMN: 00:54:06 Um, not around where Chicago, where Diversey... Little bit west, I
think there were some Japanese, um, where Claire used to live,AS: 00:54:23 Well,
AMN: 00:54:25 Barry.
AS: 00:54:27 they weren't as concentrated on Japanese because Waller was a lot
of Japanese and then were removed like... There were still Japanese and then Senn, around Senn High School, the Japanese community. Right. Because that's kind of where Lake View High School, I mean that's what I kind of remember...AMN: 00:54:49 Yeah.
AS: 00:54:50 Quarter Japanese people.
AMN: 00:54:52 Yeah, where the Shintani's lived. There, there were a Japanese
families that lived on right around that area, around Lake View High School. There was time to scatter, you know. At, at first they kind of congregated in that Division and Clark and then slowly they all moved further and further. People moved to the suburbs and, but I think there's still a core of Japanese around Clark and Division. I don't know. I haven't been around.AS: 00:55:33 We used to support like the Buddhist temple. I don't know. Did you
talk to anyone about, is there still a kind of critical mass of Japanese around the Buddhist temples still?AT: 00:55:53 Um, yeah, I don't, I don't really think so. I think everybody's
kind ofAS: 00:55:59 Just scattered, yeah.
AT: 00:56:00 all over the place. Um.
AS: 00:56:04 'Cause I think the Buddhist temple, the North Side.
AMN: 00:56:07 Oh, around
AS: 00:56:09 Argyle
AMN: 00:56:10 around the Menominee.
AS: 00:56:14 Yeah, the priest, I don't think is Japanese.
AMN: 00:56:19 There isn't around Menominee anymore. They used to have this, uh,
Ginza festival.AT: 00:56:27 That's MBT. That's still there. And
Speaker 1: 00:56:29 Ah, well I, like I said, we don't go into Chicago anymore,
so I have, when we want Japanese food, we go to Mitsuwa in...AT: 00:56:39 Arlington Heights. [group laughter] And, uh, when, uh, when you
were at, um, Clark and Diversey, so before moving out to the suburbs, did you, did you raise your children Catholic or did you, did you go to church or anything like that?AMN: 00:57:01 Oh yeah. You know, the kids went to Saint Clement School, so, I
was in the PTA, you know, fundraisers. Yeah. Pretty active in the church activities then.AT: 00:57:21 And um, did you send them to Japanese school or did you speak
Japanese with them?AMN: 00:57:31 [shakes head] I didn't think it was necessary. In a way it would
have been good. You could have worked as an interpreter [laughter in room], but you probably didn't want to. You would have hated to go to school after school. Anyway.AS: 00:57:51 I think that we were told, or my recollection is, is wanted us to
be able to assimilate into the American culture and therefore we didn't speak Japanese at home, even though Grandma was still living with us. At face, tried to speak English, and of course we went to Catholic school.AMN: 00:58:15 Yeah.
AT: 00:58:18 Does that sound familiar?
AMN: 00:58:23 I, I, I guess I didn't think it was necessary for the kids to
learn Japanese. Used to talk a little bit with grandma. Children maybe talk, um, Japanese, you know, they have the way the children talk and the way the adults talk on top of that, it's different from our county. They call it, if you go to one county, like, um, our family Hiroshima and you meet somebody from another, you wouldn't understand them because the dialect would be so different. But they're all Japanese. And, uh, like I said, I didn't think it was necessary and they probably wouldn't want to go to school. Japanese school anyway, after school.AS: 00:59:17 I don't--
AT: 00:59:20 Um.
AS: 00:59:20 Go ahead.
AT: 00:59:20 Are you sure?
AS: 00:59:22 Well, I was gonna say what about Tri-C? Tri-C, did they go to
language school?AMN: 00:59:32 I don't think so.
AS: 00:59:34 Tri-C was a congregational church on the near North Side. You know
about it? Ok.AMN: 00:59:38 The Buddhists, the people that went to the Buddhist church were
more, uh, likely to keep learning the Japanese language than, um, the Christian churches, you know, because it's, it's the religion of Japan. The Buddhists. So I think if you were a Buddhist or, if you went to Buddhist church, you went to language school.AT: 01:00:13 Can you tell me a little bit about your decision to move to
Highland Park and out of the city?AMN: 01:00:22 Well, my brother always lived, my mom and my brother always lived,
uh, next to us and he worked for a company that moved to Waukegan. So he started commuting or he found a room to rent in Waukegan. He would come home weekends with his dirty laundry, you know, family dinner. And so we thought if he want to be together, um, I think we decided to see if we could find a place mid-ways. So that's why we decided to, um, uh, the man that my husband worked for had a real estate agent. His aunt was a real estate. And so why don't you move into around Highland Park? That would be midway. And so that's how we moved to Highland Park. So my brother, you know, could sort of commute and my husband would take the train to work. He wouldn't have to drive.AT: 01:01:42 And so your mother went out to Highland Park as well?
AMN: 01:01:46 Yes.
AT: 01:01:48 And.
AS: 01:01:49 Grandma had passed away by the time you moved.Grandma passed away
when we were on Diversey.AMN: 01:01:55 Oh, that's right. She, she died the year Kathy was born. Right,
1955, so she was gone. So it was just Uncle Frank.AT: 01:02:06 And how did, how did life in Highland Park compare to Lake View?
AMN: 01:02:13 Oh, well it's the suburbs. It was very nice. We, we had real nice
neighbors. You know, the interesting thing was the real estate agent went to a neighbor that would be my next door neighbor to ask her if it was okay if, you know, Japanese Americans moved next door to her, which today, you know, you wouldn't even do that. But she was wonderful. The Fruman's were great neighbors. So, um, the whole neighborhood, and it was great because there were a lot of little kids, eh, for my kids to play with, you know, and it, good school. Alcott School is a wonderful school. And she was, you know, they were gone [indicating others in the room]. She, and Claire were.AS: 01:03:12 Okay. Well. Okay, so here's the story again, that it was also
around the time Joany was born, the youngest, and I think they thought the city was getting a little bit too inner city for her to grow up in. And so part of the impetus besides Uncle Frank working in Waukegan was, you also had a baby, another little kid. And so the move was both to take her into aAMN: 01:03:40 Suburban environment.
AS: 01:03:42 place, environment and for Uncle Frank.
AMN: 01:03:46 And you know, Highland Park had really good schools. Or the
reputation was really good at that time. So, um, we, we found a inexpensive part of Highland Park right at the entrance of Ravinia Park. Perfect. It was really nice.AS: 01:04:06 And there was still, interestingly enough, on the North Shore, some
prejudice, which is why they asked the neighbors about having the Japanese family, but there were still some groups that really did not want Japanese people in there.AMN: 01:04:23 Glencoe. And my cousin too, Ron and Edy, when they moved to Lake
Forest, they had to, trouble looking for a house. There was still prejudice, you know.AT: 01:04:39 Had you tried looking at Glencoe? Is that how you know?
AMN: 01:04:43 No, I lived in Highland Park, which was a great neighbor--. Our
neighbors were really great. Lot of little kids for mine to, you know, uh, play with, uh, like I said, it was the, um, low income part of Highland Park. If you go east along the lake is where all the big mansions, but right by the entrance to Ravinia Park, there were a lot of um, you know, modest homes. Um, a lot of kids a great place. It was really great. Neighbors were all wonderful. We had really great neighbors.AS: 01:05:22 I don't think she heard you.
AT: 01:05:27 Um, my, my question was, um, so you said that there was some
prejudice in, around Glencoe. How, how did you know about that?AMN: 01:05:39 Um, my cousin was trying to buy a house on the North Shore and,
um, we, they were talking about, you know, they would go, uh, I think they, they had to ask the neighbors if they would accept, you know, uh, because you don't want to move into a neighborhood where there's prejudice, you know, and there were rumors going around. Uh, like I said, it's so long ago. I don't remember all the details.AS: 01:06:21 And I think the realtor also helped steer the...
AMN: 01:06:25 Yeah. Uh, I don't know if they do it today, but they would go
around asking, How do you feel about, you know, um, African Americans living next door to you or, um, but in those days they did ask.AT: 01:06:43 And, um, in Highland Park, did you experience any prejudice?
AMN: 01:06:47 No, never. I think I asked my daughter and she, somebody asked her
at junior high school, are you Chinese or Japanese? Then until then, she never even thought she was any different, which I thought was kind of interesting, you know, so I guess they never treated her any different.AS: 01:07:25 So for timing, this is late '60s so, or no, not even late. It was
'65? Yeah, '64, '65.AMN: 01:07:40 I know when we first moved, Guy had, was in junior high school and
he would wake up in the morning saying he had a tummy ache. And so the um, assistant principal came over, uh, we discussed it and we found out that, uh, he felt, he came in the middle of the school year. He hadn't, didn't have any friends, so he felt, felt very lonely. So the assistant principal found him a friend, Glenn [O'Rian?] and that did it. You know, little problems like that to adjust, like I said. And I didn't drive., and I used to walk my son to junior high school until he got, he knew the neighborhood. Uh, I was afraid he'd get lost, you know, because, um, we didn't have bus service unless you lived more than a mile away from the school. So I used to walk him to school and pick him up. I remember one day, it was a real bad day. The assistant principal saw me pushing the buggy to school and he picked up Guy and said, "I'll take him," which was very nice.AT: 01:09:09 And uh, how long were you in Highland Park?
AMN: 01:09:12 34 years? I think we decided that, I sold the house and moved to a
condo in Deerfield and I lived there for 12 years before I moved to Lincolnwood. It was about 12 years. Nice place. Deerfield's a nice place to live. Northbrook, where my daughter lives at, a real nice place to live, to bring up the kids, to good schools, nice, nice neighborhood. I feel very lucky. I had a good life. Ups and downs, experienced a lot, traveled. I think I'm living too long. [laughter]AT: 01:10:09 And um, if you could leave some kind of message or legacy with,
with your children and maybe grandchildren, what would you want them to have or to know?New Speaker: 01:10:25 Oh my gosh. To, um, good or bad, um, adjust to everything,
you know. Um, don't be bitter. Don't be, uh, regret. Um, just I think accepting life, what life hands you and living the best as you can. And uh, friends and family are so important. So have good friends. And luckily my kids all get along very good because I seen some siblings that really fight a lot. So that would be it. You know, that my kids stay close together and they have wonderful friends. So I think that's important. Have close siblings, good neighbors, good friends and you know, they help you through good times and bad times. You have a lot of good times. We love, we love our get togethers and I think we're lucky. We had the core of five families that, um, got along so well. We were like one big family. We picnic together, holidays together. Um, we were very lucky. We had the Hanamoto's and the Shintani's and...AS: 01:12:08 And you didn't go into that about Hampden Court because that's
where it started.AMN: 01:12:12 Yeah. We became friends.
AS: 01:12:16 With the people who lived there.
AMN: 01:12:18 Who lived there and we remain, the families did everything
together, picnics, holidays, the kids' birthdays. Um, it's been great. It's been really wonderful life.AT: 01:12:35 Was that something that was important to you to, um, be close with
other Japanese American families?AMN: 01:12:46 I don't know. What do you think?
AS: 01:12:49 Um, I think it was...
AMN: 01:12:51 I think we all found...
AS: 01:12:53 Probably helped because you had a common background, a shared
background, but I just think it was more of compatibility.AMN: 01:13:03 Yeah.
AS: 01:13:04 What made it important is they just happened to be really compatible.
AMN: 01:13:08 The five families somehow, um, the kids who are great together;
they all played so well together. Uh, luckily, mostly girls. Was Richard the only, Guy and Richie, were the only boys, right? But the rest, the girls got along so well and, and today even, they're very close. So yeah. Um, I was talking to a psych, I was, I had kind of a nervous breakdown at one time and I was talking to this psychiatrist and she said, "Tell me about your life." When I described our group, she said, "You're very lucky to have five families that are so cohesive." You know, the kids are so great together. And I said, "Yeah, I think so." Not Too many people experience what we had. Right? I think so. I think it's been, uh, and they're still so close, the the whole group.AT: 01:14:24 And uh, as, as we wrap up here, is there anything else that you'd
like to add or that I might've missed in this conversation?AMN: 01:14:33 Ah, I don't know. Pretty much, what do I want to say. Like I say,
I hope the children continue to be good friends. Close friends. Take care of each other because they don't have grandchildren. So they, they, no, they don't, they. I mean, that's okay. That's the decision. But they've got to take care of each other now because that group didn't want children, which is okay. It's their choice. But now you have to take care of each other.AS: 01:15:16 We're looking into it now, grown-ups. [laughter]
AT: 01:15:22 Well, thank you so much again for coming in and speaking with us.
AMN: 01:15:27 Well, like I said, it's been a long time to go back and forgot a
lot of things, I guess, but that's all right. I've had a good life.AT: 01:15:38 Thank you.
AMN: 01:15:39 Thank you.
