Transcript
Index
00:00:00
[NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain
errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.]Anna Takada: 00:00 To start, can you state your full name?
Alec Nakashima: 00:02 Uh, Alec Christopher Nakashima.
AT: 00:04 And where and when were you born?
AN: 00:06 I was born in 1992 in Lodi, California, just outside of Sacramento.
AT: 00:12 And, um, so to get started, can you just tell me a little bit about,
um, your family's backgrounds-AN: 00:20 Sure.
AT: 00:20 Um, and I guess your, your connection to the experience of Japanese
Americans during World War II?AN: 00:28 Yeah, I think that, I guess I should start by saying I'm a
fourth/fifth, uh, generation- generational uh Japanese American. My dad's side is fourth and they came straight to the mainland and my mom's side, the reason for them being fifth is they immigrated a little bit earlier to Hawai'i first and kind of dispersed into the US from there. Um, but I would say I probably have the typical blend of the Japanese American upbringing and experience probably, um in the sense that you really keep, keep, hold some traditions that are very rooted in Japanese culture, but you don't necessarily, um, feel separate from your classmates until you kind of understand what being a Japanese American means, I think. Um, and it's funny, I think some of the traditions you don't even realize necessarily until you get a little bit older that those are kind of rooted in uh, Japanese traditions. I, the, one of the ones that I like to draw a parallel to is the American thing of New Year's Eve being a really big holiday, right? And then in Japanese culture it's more, New Year's Day is just a huge uh, feast really and celebration with food. And I think for a majority of my life I had kind of that duality represented in those, in those like mix of American things that I celebrated with my friends. And then things that were more familial, uh, traditions where we kind of celebrated a blend, a fusion of like American and Japanese holidays. But yeah, I would say it was probably a very, like, even split between the American upbringing and the Japanese upbringing.AT: 02:26 Hm. Um, before we get in, like talk a little bit more about, um, your,
your, um, Japanese American identity and kind of that identity development part. Um, do you, do you know or have any more details about kind of, um, like your, your grandparents integration patterns and like where and when people were moving to?AN: 02:54 Specific dates? Not really. I know that on, especially on my mom's
side, they came to Hawai'i to work. Um, and my, my great, great grandpa, um, initially worked like in the sugar plantations. It was, it was really common back then apparently in Hawai'i. Um, and then I think it was a fairly natural diaspora from there. Like, my grandma's generation, right, wanted better education opportunities and for that they went to places like Colorado and even Los Angeles in California. And from there I think naturally like, were able to open up and unlock better opportunities for their kids and realize that those would come in certain places, right. Like ver- more urban and city areas. And then on my dad's side, it's actually, kind of the opposite, right. They found one place in northern California and very much stuck around that place and they were kind of similar. The, the common denominator being like agriculture was a huge part of not only them but like many Japanese Americans of that time where they, I mean that was like all they could get at that time, right? Like that was the only opportunity. It was like agriculture and farming. And there was actually a really interesting history that I've kind of just started to look at of like how Japanese Americans of that time were real pioneers of agriculture. Like all they could get was the undesirable places that grew the undesirable crops and they found ways to like, do irrigation and, and stuff to be able to grow, like more premium things at those locations. So I think probably that's like the two separate paths of, of like my mom's side of my dad's side.AT: 04:41 And do you know, um, like what kind of farms they were..working on?
AN: 04:47 No, I don't. Like specific, specific crops. No, uh uh. I wish I did.
AT: 04:53 And, um, during World War II, like what happened to your, to both families?
AN: 05:01 So I think I have like a unique blend of, um, like, especially for the
terrible options of the time, but the options that like Japanese Americans had at that time of like every possible scenario, right. So my, my dad's side, they-- the most common path. Like they went, they went to the camps and dealt with all of that. Um, but my mom's side has two really interesting, uh, scenarios. My grandma was in Hawai'i right, at that time. So she, that was like a completely different experience from Japanese Americans who were on the mainland, Japanese Americans in Hawai'i. right. There was just so many Japanese in Hawai'i at that time that they couldn't really do the same formula that they did on the mainland, but there was still like some, there was still like rounding up and they had to deal with like the aftermath of the prejudice that came from Pearl Harbor. But that's like a very separate experience from mainland, mainland Japanese. My grandpa was living, um, on- in the Central Coast at the time and he was really young, but his family chose the option of like, 'no way, we can't go to these camps'. Like, so they fled. Which is, I mean, it's kind of similar, like they had to lose all their belongings. Very the same story as like tons of families, but they, instead of going along with the camps, they fled to Colorado. And so that's, I mean it's almost, the parallels are crazy. They like, it was like same like, all they could, whatever they could carry was all they took. They had to sell off everything. Um, and they fled to Colorado and were like sleeping in farms and stuff there. My grandpa gets really emotional when he talks about it, but like he said, actually that was like, he's so grateful that they did that because like they lived in Colorado and like didn't face a lot of prejudice there. Maybe just cause, I mean the spread of news was so different back then, but like, because they like, they found a great community out there. Um, but it's interesting because his dad actually was the, the like president of, I forget what it was called, but something equivalent to like a like club that a few of them were in at the time. So he was actually like arrested by the FBI of course. No, no trial, no warrant, no anything, and taken to like a special camp, right, where they thought people of like prominence would be put, I mean that they would be x amount more likely to be like disloyal or whatever. But yeah, he didn't get to see his, his dad, he said for like a year and a half I think, or something crazy like that until afterwards he went and met up with them in, in Colorado.AT: 07:47 So this, this was your, your maternal great grandfather?
AN: 07:51 This was, yes. My, no, my maternal grandfather. Yeah.
AT: 07:55 But the great, but his father...
AN: 07:59 Oh yes, sorry. His father. Yeah-
AT: 08:00 Okay.
AN: 08:00 His father.
AT: 08:01 Okay.
AN: 08:01 Yeah. But yeah, and this, this all, I just know from my, from my
maternal grandfather, but on my dad's side, like very right, like his, my dad's mom went to camp, she was in Poston, um, I believe. And my grandfather went there as well and he had very fortunate, and this is something that like they've talked about a lot, at least in the, I mean the hard part of unlocking this whole thing is like none of our, that generation really wanted to talk about it. Like it was just, it's passed down in a very weird way I think just because it's like I'm sure very painful to talk about and like they just like, well I forget what they explain is, the expression is. It's like 'shikata ga nai' or something...AT: 08:46 Shikataganai
AN: 08:46 Yeah, of like just 'can't be helped' and they didn't really want to
talk about it. So a lot of this is like really anecdotal, the way it's passed down to our generations.AT: 08:55 Sure.
AN: 08:56 But um, yeah, my, my grandma on my dad's side, her sister went just
like went dark. They call it going dark and they told everyone that they were Chinese and they just went like kind of on the run. They just like cut contact with, with other Japanese like friends and family and were able to pass themselves off as Chinese and they didn't reunite with my, my dad's mom until like years and years later. But that's like crazy and that's, yeah.AT: 09:30 Do you have any more details about, um, like where exactly people
went? Like, did your, um, dad's family, did they go directly to Poston or did they go to uh, an assembly center first?AN: 09:45 Oh, I don't, I don't know if they went to, I mean I'm, I'm assuming
they did. I just know that was the camp that they like- they were, they were a lot older than me, so like kind of what I was saying before, like the, our talks about this, were super limited, but yeah, I think that's something that me and like my cousins and brother, like wish we would have had the opportunity to talk more with them about. But yeah, I mean it was just so, like such a painful thing for them to talk about, I think, that it wasn't really like part of our main interactions. That's why it's important projects like these, right, where you- to be able to pass down that kind of that knowledge. But my, my dad's family had, and I even saw a little note out there about it, like we're very fortunate to, I mean people cause people, some families literally lost everything, right? But my dad's family was very fortunate. They had, um, Italian neighbors that were like, I know, like very, uh, empathetic towards them, I think. And they like watched all of their, their business and like they kept all of their stuff so that they didn't have to start from absolutely nothing when they got back, which is something that's like, that part specifically has been passed down as like, that was like amazing. That changed the trajectory of like our family and my generations that they were able to like be very successful in business. Lose it, have to step away for two years or, or what, and then come back and not, not have to start from ashes. Right. Like, yeah.AT: 11:18 So what are some other, um, like memories or, or stories that have
been passed down in your family about this?AN: 11:27 I think the biggest story that I've like really started to dig into
recently is my, my mom's dad and they experience of like intentionally deciding like, 'We are not going to go. We are going to do what it takes to not have to, to report to camp and like to like deciding that this is, this is wrong and we will make an intentional decision,' right. To like, to change the path of what our family is going to do. And he said like that was, that was a very, and that's, I mean it was like exacerbated by the fact that like his dad got taken away to like a special camp and it was a very like, difficult times for the mom and the six kids to have to like make it from California to Colorado on their own with like nothing, right. They sold all their stuff. That's something he talks about a lot, which is like kind of the opposite of what my dad's, dad's dad had. Right. Like they had to sell everything for pennies on the dollar, which is just the more typical thing. Um, but yeah, just, I mean he's talked about, he's talked- that's the most out of all my grandparents that I've been able to talk with someone about, like it was very difficult for them to make that journey, uh, by themselves with nothing. They were like sleep from place to place every night on their way there and occasionally would just meet people who were empathetic towards them. Um, which I think is, is, is an important part to tell, right? Like they couldn't have done that without the kindness of others being being, I mean kindness of non-Japanese, right. Being, being something that let them do that and just sleep in farms, place to place until they could get there. I mean when you get there, what do you do? Like, you know, you have nothing. And then his mom got a job, they all had to get jobs in order to, to raise money and try and build a life. But, but they were able to, I mean, and that's eventually where he met my grandma, right? It was in Colorado. And I think that that's pretty, that's a cool underlying aspect of the story is like how the kindness of non Japanese Americans like shines through. Right? Like in, in, in a part where like even just letting a Japanese family stay in your farm, which is not a high cost to you at that time. Like that's a huge thing for them. I don't know. I think that's, that's a pretty cool part of the story. And that's the one I've talked with him most about.AT: 14:13 Mhm. Um, do you have any idea where in Colorado they...?
AN: 14:17 I don't remember the specific city, no. I'd have to look at, look at
like a map and actually think about it, yeah.AT: 14:25 Huh. And then how about after, after the war or maybe your dad's
family's place after camp, where did people end up going?AN: 14:35 Uh, Stockton. Stockton is where they, that is a really, that is like
the American dream of a story, I think. Like they came back from camp and were already in like a better position than others I think just because of like that. I mean the theme, I have like the kindness of that one family who was like willing to help them, like not lose everything and man, they made some incredible like business decisions back then, I think. They, it was my dad's dad and his five brothers and one sister. Um, and they pooled their money and made some like strategic investments and bought land that has really like gone up in value since then. But that is like the true American dream of like they came with nothing. And like the meritocracy of America, like 'you, if you work hard, you can have a shot to, to change the like destiny of your family'. And that's why like their parents had come to America, honestly.AT: 15:44 Hm. Um, and so, so that was your dad's family that went to Stockton?
AN: 15:50 Mhm, yup.
AT: 15:50 Um, and then how about for the folks who were in Colorado? Did they
stay there?AN: 15:56 No, they eventually moved, came back and moved to LA. Um, and then
that's kinda where my mom's generation was born and then moved up to Sacramento, yeah.AT: 16:09 Um, was there any particular reason that they chose LA?
AN: 16:14 I th- I just think economic opportunity and educational opportunity,
that's something that's really important for like that side of the family in terms of like unlocking opportunities you didn't have for your kids. Um, but my grandpa served in the navy and uh, my grandma was a nurse for a long time and they worked really hard to, to let their kids have better opportunities than they did. I mean I think that's, that's like another huge part of this story is how that whole experience shaped the mentality of the people who are kids during that time. Like our grandparents' generation. Um, that's, that's something that I think drives me a lot actually is like, their, is like their desire to see things changed from how they experienced and how they doubled down and were kind of determined to change things for their kids. That's something that I think our generation has benefited a lot from like is their, is their drive and their tenacity.AT: 17:27 How do you think that's, um, can you explain that a little more? Like
how, how has, how exactly has that, um, helps shape our upbringing, hence later generations.AN: 17:41 I think it really, I mean it provided us opportunities that they, I
mean we just, the fact that can live where we live and have the kind of like educational opportunities that we have to be able to kind of like trace that back towards the kindness, the kindness of a select few people and like see to look back in retrospective and see how like how important that was. To me that's, that's like a huge part of this story and it's kind of crazy. Like that minimal acts of kindness could have such like a, a lasting impact or even like generations down the line.AT: 18:22 Um, can you tell me a little bit more, um, about your, your own
personal interest or investment in, in learning about your family's story and what that process has been like, kind of piecing together?AN: 18:37 Yeah, I would say probably it's only, it's only been something I've
been interested in the last few years, I think. And like really like wanting to learn. Just 'cause I mean like what I talked about earlier, it's not something that is widely circulated and comes up, you know, at dinner with your grandparents or something like that. It's something you kind of have to dig into just because it's like such a painful thing. It's like a very like, visceral emotional thing. I think that's the most emotional I've seen my grandparents like ever-AT: 19:09 When they
AN: 19:09 Um, when they're speaking about just that time period in general. Um,
but I think it's really important that this, this story gets told. I mean, especially in the world we live in today, I think it's something that that generation understandingly had a lot of pain from. But from our generation we should think of it as like, that's a source of strength that we should, we should be able to, to draw from and from, from their stories, especially as, as it's being told through like various through art forms and through like ways that beyond just the Japanese community can learn from it. That's hugely important. I think that's something that, that, uh, our generation is kind of tasked with, right, is like making it known to a wider, a wider group of people other than just our generation- that shouldn't fall to that, the generation that experienced it, right. It shouldn't be, understandably, shouldn't be something that they, they have to share with people, but that's, that's our task is to like spread knowledge of these, this event and these events. And it's, no, it's no, never been more important than, than today. I think.AT: 20:29 Um, can, can you unpack that a little bit more? So, so why, why is
there, it, it sounds like you're talking about there's almost a, a responsibility-AN: 20:42 Mhm.
AT: 20:42 That kind of falls on um Sansei and Yonsei and I guess Gosei
generations, um, to make sure people know about this history. So, um, can you tell me a little bit more about, about that responsibility and, and why that's an important...AN: 21:02 Yeah.
AT: 21:02 Act, I guess?
AN: 21:03 I mean, I think because it's, I think often it's something that gets
airbrushed a little bit, especially in, in like education. I mean, my wife is from Portland, is from a very predominantly white town and they have half a paragraph about it in history books. I think that's crazy. Um, especially when you think about like some people just don't understand that the, the uh, the impact that it's had that- and how long it's lasted, right. Um, I think it's definitely something that gets gilded over in the way it's taught to ge- future generations and just 'cause it's a mistake. Like that's a theme too is like those people who all, all went to camps, like it was totally proven afterwards that they, none, not a single one, like they were all very loyal to America. And I think it's our like responsibility to make sure that type of discrimination is never taken that far. Uh, again.AT: 22:10 And you, you mentioned that, you know, um, especially today this is a
really critical task. Why, why is it so important today in particular?AN: 22:25 I mean, I think the parallels to discrimination against marginalized
groups are just terrifyingly sad. Uh, I think it's hugely important for Asian, I mean Japanese communities and probably Asian communities in general that have kind of always been adjacent to those types of like really important conversations and like, uh, rights to be, to like thrust ourselves into those conversations, right? As people, one of the foremost examples and like American history that this happened to, to really like be advocates and uh, let our voices be heard and tell stories like this and like we need to be more forthright in the parallels to it, right? It shouldn't be- we shouldn't have to cover up how similar it is to some of the scary things that we see happening today, right? Like, this in the grand scheme of things was not a long time ago. This was very, very recent in US history and I think to have mistakes as one thing, but not to learn from those mistakes as, as a nation and as a people and Japanese Americans should feel like as much empathy as anyone for for marginalized groups, Muslims, African American communities that we see today. We should, we should let this inform our empathy for those groups. Let the experiences of our grandparents really put us, you know, right in the middle instead of on the sidelines. I think that's like really important.AT: 24:12 Um, do you think something like this um, could ever happen again in
the US?AN: 24:23 Not if we don't let it.
AT: 24:34 Um, one other thing I, I wanted to ask you was about, um you had
mentioned your, your wife's experience in, you know, quote unquote learning about the incarceration and that there was just a mention. Um, what was your own particular experience in learning about it? Did you hear in school or from your family or...?AN: 24:58 I think probably from my family before in school. Um, but yeah, I
think in general it's just something that's kind of glossed over as not a huge, I mean, especially when you contrast it to some of the- like the Holocaust and things that are very covered in schools. Uh, we look, we being America, look back very fondly on our own mistakes sometimes I think. Which is not, you know, a virtue of anything that we aren't learning from it. But I think that's it's, I mean, it's important. I, I would say that like learning about this and understanding, I mean, the crazy thing is you'll, you'd get people who even to this day would semi try and justify it. Um, which is insane in that the first response to that is not anything but empathy is just ludicrous. Yeah. I think it's very important to, to educate people on what happened. And, I mean, at the root of it, like American citizens put Americans citizens in camp. That's crazy. And it's crazy that some people would try to this day to try and explain that away. Um, and to, to justify it. Yeah.AT: 26:24 So you came a long way from California to come see this show.
AN: 26:29 Mhm.
AT: 26:29 So, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit about, um, some of
your reactions to it.AN: 26:36 I think I really enjoyed the photography, uh, part of it because
images of like are just so powerful. I think when you see people who look like you...well first off, Japanese Americans of that age just had so much style. They were just killing it. I think that's like my sneak take away from, from this exhibit is like, man, those people they looked good man. Um, but I mean I think that's being able to see photographs and know that like famous photo-- Ansel Adams-- famous photographers were all really like, saw this as a huge inflection point at that time. Even, um, seeing that I think is what had the most impact to me and just seeing the quotes, it's all, it's all put together in a very like, uh, difficult way. I think that really makes people who've come to the exhibit, wrestle with it and like really put themselves in those, in the shoes of those people. I mean, it's just difficult to imagine honestly what like that that could even happen, especially with some of that, the lives that we lead now.AT: 27:51 Are there any particular photographs that stood out to you?
AN: 27:55 I think the one of the, it's a whole other conversation, but the 442nd
mom, that's just, that's, I mean, I don't know. I had a lump in my throat the whole time walking around. But I think that's the one that I could just cry for hours in front of probably. But it was like some of those, those stories out of the 442nd are like some of the most incredible, incredible things I've ever heard. I think. Yeah. I mean those are literally people who believed in America when America didn't believe in them. That's, that's nuts, man. Yeah. That's like super, super powerful, yeah.AT: 28:28 Uh, well thank you so much for, for coming in and for seeing the show
AN: 28:34 Sure, yeah. I hope some of it is useful.
AT: 28:37 Um, before we completely wrap up, are there any last things that you'd
like to add or that I might've missed?AN: 28:43 No, I don't think so. I, I'm really glad, I mean, that this story is
being told and like, yeah, we, I came all the way from California because I wanted to see it and, and uh experience it. So I'm really appreciative that people are, people are telling this story and making sure that it's, it's heard this is sufficiently more than a half a paragraph in a, in a school textbook. And for that, I'm really thankful.