Nicholls, Lourdes (4/26/2021)

JJ Ueunten (JJU): ​​Today is April 26, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N. Clark St. in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Lourdes Nicholls. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay, what is your full name?

Lourdes Nicholls (LN): Lourdes Michelle Nicholls... Kaczkowski. I'm, I'm marr-- I go, I don't go by my married last name. (laughs)

JJU: And what is your year of birth?

LN: 1967.

JJU: And where were you born?

LN: I was born in Culver City, CA.

JJU: Were you or any members of your family incarcerated during World War II?

LN: My mother was born in February 1945 at Manzanar, and her parents and her sister and grandmother lived together in Block 20 a--at Manzanar.

JJU: And when did your family first come to the US?

LN: Okay, so my mother's father Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya came to the United States by himself at 15 or 16 years old in 1916, and took a ship to Los Angeles to find his father who was working at a flower shop in Los Angeles, and to get him to go back to Japan. Because he had been in the United States for maybe 10 years, and was not coming back to Japan. And my grandfather was the first boy in five 00:02:00generations, and h--and was sent to the United States to bring him, his father back even though he didn't really know his father 'cause he was just a little boy when he left.

JJU: Did he go back?

LN: He went back, but my grandfather stayed, and again you know he came by himself at 15 or 16 years old not knowing English and... I can't even imagine... I mean he found him luckily, but you know it wasn't a text or a phone call I don't think, it was like letters and finding him.

JJU: And when and how did your family come to live in Chicago?

LN: So my grandfather lived in Los Angeles in the late teens and early 20s. He went, he went through the United States, he went to Oklahoma to become... To 00:03:00find oil. And what he said was that the Standard Oil Company set up oil rigs right next to where my grandfather and his uncle had property and sucked all the oil out and so my grandfather and his uncle ended up going north to Chicago, and my grandfather, who by the way originally wanted to be a dentist, ended up at art school at the Art Institute of Chicago in about 1922 or 1923.

JJU: Wow, okay. And do you know, kind of when your grandmother came?

LN: So my-- my grandmother was born in 1911, in Sacramento. Her parents were 00:04:00from Japan, and her mother was born in 1890, her name was Chiyo Konishi. And she was... She came to the United States to get married to my grandmother's father, who was 25 years older than my great-grandmother. Yeah, I'm not sure if she knew that when she... You know, signed up for that but anyway, yeah so they were both born in Japan, and my grandmother was born in Sacramento.

JJU: Do you know what motivated them to immigrate? I-I know your your great-grandmother came to get married--

LN: Yes, my great grandfather... seems like he was like an actor. He had a lot 00:05:00of interests. He had a Go parlor in Los Angeles in their house I believe? And I think he was kind of a Jack-of-all-trades. I know that when the 1908 earthquake happened in San Francisco, which you know they were-- he was in the area, I guess he walked from San Francisco to Sacramento which is really far. To-- because he had nowhere else to go at that time. That's what our family has said for generations, that he walked, he left San Francisco and walked to Sacramento. I don't know, but they were in Sacramento and eventually went to Los Angeles. My grandmother and her sister who was born in 1912 were in a very strict household and their parents wouldn't allow them to go to school if their horoscopes were 00:06:00not good. And they also had them work in silent movies. So my grandmother and her sister were in the Sessue Hayakawa movies as child, child actors. So, that was kind of a interesting life I guess, that they had. And I have a lot of photos of them from those movies, from the movies they were in.

JJU: Wow.

LN: And Sessue Hayakawa was in Chicago as well so he's, he's kind of a interesting character as well.

JJU: Was-- Do you happen to know if your family was part of Japanese American communities before the war?

LN: They... My grandmother's family was in Little Tokyo in Los Angeles and they 00:07:00seem to have been very ingrained in that, in, in that community. My grandmother went to an integrated school in high school, she went to Lincoln High School in Los Angeles with some later... Marcus Welby I can't think of his name now, he was a big star. So she, even though she was required to speak Japanese at home her parents had her, you know her and her sister in an integrated high school. And they graduated around 1928-29 the sisters.

JJU: And, yeah do you mind speaking a little bit about the pre-war life in 00:08:00Chicago that you know about?

LN: Sure, sure. So my grandfather came to Chicago in the early 1920s, and he went to the Art Institute, and there he met a man named George Harding Jr. who was a very eclectic, wealthy collector of arms and armor. And he really liked my grandfather, so he asked my grandfather to become his curator of his collection. And he lived at 4853 Lake Park Ave. which is in the Hyde Park-ish Kenwood neighborhood. The house has been destroyed now because it was going to be revitalized, that neighborhood was going to be changed. And so unfortunately, it's not there, it's an empty lot. But the house was a mansion, and George 00:09:00Harding actually I believe was the first person in Illinois to have a car. He had an airplane, he had, he would fly to Europe and all over the world to collect art pieces. And after World War I, there were a lot of families in Europe selling things, and he was able to take advantage of those things. I've read that the Hearst family and George Harding had a lot of competition between pieces of art. So my grandfather ended up being his curator, and I have a photo of him in the-- his little workshop. He would take care of the arms and armor in the collection. And he would give tours to presidents, vice presidents, Al Capone actually he, he told me about going there. In the, I think late 1920s, 00:10:00George Harding had wanted to dismantle a castle in Germany and bring it to Chicago but because that wasn't allowed he actually built the Chicago in... He built the castle, and had it created in Chicago. My grandfather lived on the property, and you could see him actually in these photos in front. But he was kind of a Jack-of-all-trades, he gave tours, he cleaned armor, he lived on site, he met with people, he appraised things and yeah he had kind of a busy life. 00:11:00​​A very, you know, extravagant life I would say. My grandfather, you know, I have a lot of old photos of Chicago from the 1920's through his eyes because he was living here, and... I know that he told me he would walk, I don't know maybe 40 blocks to save maybe like $0.02 to, in order to mail something. He would-- instead of taking the streetcar he would, he would walk from 4800 South to the Loop which-- that's pretty far, as you know. (laughs) And I think he was happy working there, he worked for George Harding for over 15 years, and then in 1939 George Harding unexpectedly died. And at that time, my grandfather didn't 00:12:00know if he could continue working at the museum. There was a lot of drama, even though George Harding was married, he had a mistress who was taking over the business. And I think my grandfather was very uneasy about things, and he also, he-- my grandparents were married in 1936. Sorry, I'm jumping. But, and they were expecting a child in 1940, so when George Harding died there was a lot of-- you know, I'm sure a lot of stress about what they were gonna do. But so... That's kind of the back story. My grand, my grandparents were married on December 7th 1936, which was five years before Pearl Harbor day. It was a Monday. I don't know who gets married on Monday, but they got married, and they 00:13:00got married in Los Angeles. It was an arranged marriage, my grandfather was 36, my grandmother was 25. And they, I think that they got married on a Monday because of horoscope types of things, that's what my idea is. And they came back to Chicago, and lived at the mansion. But in maybe a year or two after they came back to Chicago and they were living here, they opened a Japanese restaurant in Chicago which is pretty unique I would say. Because, I believe there were only 400 Japanese Americans in Chicago at that time, and they were two of them. So they opened this restaurant, the address is 5253 Cornell Ave. in Chicago. And 00:14:00this is a photo of them in the restaurant. They are on the left so-- with their friends. So I thought that was pretty unique because here's the interior of the restaurant, I mean I don't know of any Japanese restaurants you know, that were in business then. And it looks very elegant. Oh, I also brought, sorry, a picture of my grandfather at the Harding Museum with the armor that he worked on. And I recently found these brochures of the Harding Museum, which actually my grandparents boxed up, and when they were sent to Manzanar, they actually, 00:15:00you know, saved these albums because those things were probably going to be destroyed. So, so yeah, here's another workshop photo, and here's a, a castle photo of, I think that's-- I think that's George Harding right there. So, so even though I didn't grow up in Chicago, I feel like something kind of brought me here. And that my grandfather loved it here, I think he was very happy here. But in 1940, my aunt was born, here in Chicago and because my grandfather's job was in jeopardy, or not knowing you know what would happen to the museum, they moved to Los Angeles in August of 1940. And they thought it would be a temporary 00:16:00place for them because my grandfather was asked to run a museum in Manchuria, but my grandmother's family thought it was very dangerous for them to go there so they stayed in Los Angeles. And because my grandfather was unable to find a job, he opened a garden nursery in Culver City.

JJU: Wow, wow!

LN: I know it's a lot of info sorry!

JJU: No, no, this is great! So did they, they had the restaurant after George Harding died?

LN: They had the restaurant, I believe in like '37, '38 I think that they were doing it you know, at the same-- like maybe my grandmother was working there while my grandfather was working... But it may have been '39, my grandmother told my mother, and my mother told me that there were some anti-Japanese feelings at that time, and they felt that that's why the restaurant wasn't 00:17:00successful because even though we weren't at war, people were not real open to that. I don't know-- I, I'd love to know what, what was going on.

JJU: And do, do you know, do you happen to know if they were in, kind of communication or community with other Japanese people here?

LN: Good question, I know that they had their best friends. Fred Uno, who was in that photo that, they opened it together. But I, I don't know, I think my grandfather was used to working with people that were not Japanese. My grandmother, I think she was adjusting to life in Chicago. It was very different than Los Angeles, I'm not sure... I wish I knew more, yeah--

JJU: Oh yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's incredible.

LN: It's kind of-- Yeah, it's, it's unique.

JJU: Um yeah, so maybe moving into like, wartime incarceration maybe you've answered this but when and where was your family incarcerated?

LN: So my family was... From what I know, my grandparents had this garden nursery, and I've seen photos of it, it was beautiful. It was not little, it was pretty large. My grandfather was told by one of his customers who worked for the FBI that... Maybe, right after Executive Order 9066 was the 19th of February 1942. That if he had a-- if he could go to Manzanar, that would be the "best place". I don't know, that's, I have my grandfather saying that on tape, so... I 00:19:00don't know why somebody would have said that, it's really hard to know what, what would be a best place. I mean, it's all horrible! But my grandparents were unable to sell their garden nursery, and finally my grandfather spoke with the milkman, and he said, "Would you like to buy it?" and my, and the milkman said, "I only have $75". And so he sold the whole thing for $75, and they went to Manzanar on April 8th 1942. So they were some of the first people to arrive at Manzanar, and they were in block 20. I just recently found their tags.

JJU: Wow.

LN: Yeah, I knew they were in block 20 but it looks like they were in another block, and then they switched because maybe they were friends with the people 00:20:00there. Toyo Miyatake was in block 20 and Toyo Miyatake took my grandparent's wedding photos in LA, so it's kind of full circle. You know, they, they were married in 1936, and then in 1942 they're neighbors with their wedding photographer who did a lot of things to help people at Manzanar.

JJU: Are there, did your family kind of tell, share any stories with you about their time there?

LN: So when I was in high school, I was required to interview my grandparents, so I did get a lot of information. They, my grandfather started the visual education museum at Manzanar, which, which I have a picture of... Well let me see, I have this photo that shows my grandfather here, and here's Toyo Miyatake. 00:21:00He started the visual education museum to show the incarcerees what life was like outside of camp because they didn't know how long they were going to be there. Ralph Merritt, who ran Manzanar, asked my grandfather to start a museum and collect things to show children and adults and work on art. So even though this is a blurry photo, I mean it's a copy, that's what he did. He, he knew, Ralph Merritt knew that he had this museum experience, so he asked him to use that, his experience at Manzanar. And in this book about Manzanar, my grandfather put together the Ansel Adams exhibit, and he's, he's mentioned in this book as well.

JJU: The Ansel Adams exhibit like at Manzanar?

LN: At Manzanar. Yes, yes, so Ansel Adams went to Manzanar four times, and my grandfather put together this exhibit of his work at the visual education museum.

JJU: So were these like the Ansel Adam photos that he took of Manzanar,

LN: Yes, yes.

JJU: and then it was a--

LN: Yes.

JJU: --it was like a...Wow, okay!

LN: Yeah, so those are the photos that were at the-- Then, they came from the exhibit, you know that were blown up. Those photos, my grandfather had the first showing of those photos at Manzanar.

JJU: That's amazing... Yeah, any I don't any other-- I know that you've kind of shared, and your mom's shared, but any other stories that you'd like to share about kind of what you know about their life at Manzanar?

LN: So, all I know... My grandmother said that the food was horrible, the thing 00:23:00that always stuck to me is that she said that there was, there wasn't any butter and that they would give you basically like Crisco grease, and little yellow packets to color that grease so that you would think that it was butter. That is really... I mean when I was 16 and I heard that I thought, "Ugh, yeah that was really gross". And I know that the wind and the dust were horrible, they talked about that, my grandfather actually wrote a document about starting the museum and how the conditions were, I mean he made light of it, but it was actually pretty sad. And again, he went from you know, working with millions of dollars worth of inventory and, to working and collecting butterflies and bugs and 00:24:00putting them in little displays, so... My mom always said that he was very depressed after that experience because, it was just so humiliating, you know, to, to be like that. My grandmother was the secretary of the museum, so she was paid, my grandfather was paid I think $21 a month to be the head of the museum, which was I think the same that doctors got at Manzanar. It was considered a very prestigious job. My great-grandmother worked in the mess hall, and my mom said it was the only job she ever had in her whole life, but I don't know how long she did that. And my aunt was two when she went to Manzanar, and she was 00:25:00five and a hal-- five, when she left, so those were her earliest childhood memories were there. She went, started kindergarten at... there.

JJU: And your mom was born there?

LN: My mom was born, yes February 26th 1945, and didn't remember it but for her lifetime said that there was intergenerational trauma because of all that her parents had endured, yeah.

JJU: Did, did she kind of, I mean she, she wouldn't remember but I don't know, do you wanna share a little bit more about you know what, what she thought of how, how that kind of got passed down?

LN: Yeah, well I'm moving ahead a little bit, but my grandfather, right when the war was ending got a job in Oklahoma, Stillwater, Oklahoma, which is now 00:26:00Oklahoma State, teaching naval officers Japanese. And from there he became the translator for US War Crimes Trials, in Japan and went to Japan. And my mom and her whole family went to Japan, so... They had a very different life-- they never came back to Chicago. They... again, they went to Oklahoma, then they lived in Japan for two years, and when they finally came back to the US, they lived in Boyle Heights in Los Angeles. And my mom just said that my grandfather wasn't able to get a job after that, that he-- you know, he had worked in a museum, he had been a translator, he was doing all of these things, and no one, no one wanted to hire him. She said that he sold vacuum cleaners door-to-door which didn't last very long. But I mean, that's pretty, pretty, pretty dire. 00:27:00He... Then opened a garden nursery again, and he had a lot of success with that but I don't think he ever was able to do really what he wanted to do. Until, maybe in his 70s in Los Angeles, he opened a frame shop, which kind of gave h-- brought him back to the art world, and what he used to do. Yeah and he didn-- he worked there until his, maybe he started that in his 60s and then he worked at the frame shop he owned until his 8-- until he was 80 or or older, yeah. But my mom was, she said that growing up in Boyle Heights which was Japanese, and La-Latino you know she had a lot of friends of a lot of different backgrounds which she loved, but I think she had a strict household, and her dad was... I 00:28:00think people were very depressed. I think that her parents were depressed, even though they were trying to make it better. They seemed like they were, you know struggling for a bit, yeah.

JJU: And so-- Do you know kind of like how old your mom was when they moved back to-- or to Boyle Heights?

LN: To Boyle Heights she was about, I think she was four. I think it was 1949 and she went to Japanese school, she was a pianist, I mean her parents made her take piano very seriously. She was a top student, she skipped grades, she was, she kind of, she didn't rebel against them but she, she went to college. They 00:29:00wanted her to go to UCLA, she went to Occidental where she met my dad. And you know, she, she wanted to live a little, a different life. She was, she, she had again, she thinks that she had intergenerational trauma from that experience. I thought I brought another picture go ahead, sorry. Oh! I think I left it in the car, sorry. I had one of our family, in Los Angeles with my grandparents, but I can't find it. So...

JJU: That's okay, yeah I guess... Let's see, and you kind of said in your form that your family had some kind of part in the redress movement, or that-- yeah.

LN: I don't know if my... That's a good question 'cause I'm literally just 00:30:00filling out the form to see the testimonies. I don't think that they testified but they did receive the redress check, and unfortunately my grandfather died August 26th 1990 and his check arrived that October. So even though he knew it was coming, he didn't see it. I didn't really talk with them about that. I think it's really hard to, hard to think about. Yeah, it's, it's sad. I mean I think my grandmother thought that it would, was never enough for all that they lost. Yeah, and I'm sure my grandfather thought the same. The ironic part is that if they had stayed in Chicago, they wouldn't have been at Manzanar. Now, I'll... 00:31:00You know, that's hard to, hard to believe but it's true. You know they-- the only reason that they were required to go is 'cause they moved, yeah. So, their lives would have been so different.

JJU: Yeah

NL: I mean still hard you know, but yeah... I don't think that they ever really wanted to talk about Manzanar, until I had to do this school project. They really didn't want to talk about it.

JJU: When you did the school project, at that point were they willing, or did you kind of have to like...

NL: They were willing, my mom and I flew from San Francisco to Los Angeles just to do this interview. And again, it was in 1982 and I had required questions and 00:32:00they answered them, but I'm sure that they were really, you know, ashamed of it. And my grandmother, the quote that I remember her saying is that, "Now that it's over, I can remember the good things". But obviously, you know it's kind of like-- yeah a bad nightmare you know, so... Yeah, and having been to Manzanar numerous times I'm... Every time I go there I kind of you know, see new thing-- or notice new things so... I haven't been there in the real cold, I'm usually there in like the springtime or summer when it's really warm. But it's got to-- it must have been a miserable place to be you know? And my grandmother was pregnant to-- too so, yeah.

JJU: Yeah, thank you. I'm gonna move a-a little bit into like your life if that's okay?

LN: I thought it was all about them! (smiles)

JJU: (laughs) No, it's also about you!

LN: (laughs) What!?

JJU: Especially because you, you know you spend a lot of time kind of learning these stories and stuff. But also, if there's other things that you want to share before I start asking you questions about yourself, that would be great.

LN: Yeah, I, I think I'm in pretty good shape, I'm just disappointed, I had a picture that I, is sitting in my car so I might have to, I don't know what-- if we take a break?

JJU: You could take a break and you could get it?

LN: Yeah I'm, it's kind of an important... That was the first thing I grabbed, and now I don't have it so... yeah.

JJU: Yeah, do you want to take a quick break?

LN: How am I doing?

JJU: Or should we do later, like--

--

Other voice: Yeah! I just...

JJU: Okay, but yeah, do you want to share those with us?

LN: I was just, I'm-- First I'll share my grandfather's document while he was at 00:34:00Manzanar. Which is the history of the visual education museum, which he wrote on-- in May 1943 while he was at Manzanar:

One hot day in August 1942 a desk piled with a few magazines, pictures from old calendars, and other, and a scissor were given to us...

Sorry, I gotta start over I need my glasses. Can I have my--

Other voice: I'll get them!

LN: Okay, thank you. I'm sorry, this is going to be bad, I'm just going to, I'm-- I can, I kind of know it, but I need to-- Yeah! Yeah, they[glasses] might be right on top! Yeah, thank you. I'm sorry. Okay better, okay now I can really read it, okay. "One hot" Okay, so... I'll start over, if you want? Okay, this 00:35:00document my grandfather wrote while he was incarcerated at Manzanar, May 1943 :

History of the Visual Education Museum

One hot day in August 1942 a desk piled with a few magazines, pictures torn from old calendars, and a scissor were given to me in the corner of the superintendent's office to develop visual resources for Manzanar schools. In September, I was moved to block 2015 Library. There, my staff of workers were formed. Kango Takamura, artist, Toyo Miyatake, assistant director, and Carole Kageyama, secretary. Our department began with a pile of old magazines for picture file, one live owl, and a mouse. While we collected insects to be mounted, Mr. Takamura painted the local wildflowers. When we opened our present museum at Block at 815, Block 815 in October, we began to write to various institutions and manufacturers for free materials on visual education which soon 00:36:00began to arrive, enabling us to have enough things to be displayed on one table. In our early days, the walls and floor were unlined. Dust and wind blew through the open seams of our buildings. We worked with-- with our coats on because the heat was inadequate. To add to our misery, the owl, the sparrow, and the snake died of cold. The mouse escaped and ate up our collection of insects. Yet we were not discouraged. We wandered around the center collecting everything from bugs to minerals. After five months of hard toil, our first exhibition on December 5th 1942 was a great success. Since then, we have held special exhibits every month. Today we have a permanent exhibit of local minerals, plants, wood carvings, posters, and handicrafts, and also a picture library of approximately 4000 mounted and unmounted pictures, models, slides, diagrams, globes, and other visual aids. The Manzanar public has had an opportunity to enjoy several 00:37:00interesting special exhibits such as Fine Arts, point rationing, relocation week, traveling exhibition, art exi-- exhibit, Know Your Manzanar, World of Science, etc. With the newly selected board of directors, we know that the day will be here soon when we will have a visual education museum of which Manzanar can be proud.

-- Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya, Director, Visual Education.

So, that kind of illustrates in a nice way probably, what, what he was doing or trying to do. And, at Manzanar, currently in one of the barracks, there's a exhibit based on what he did so... Yeah.

JJU: Whoa.

LN: It's hard, yeah. But he did it so... I'm very proud of him even though I'm sure it was depressing. Yeah.

JJU: Have you ever connected with anyone who like remembers that museum?

LN: I have, yes. My mom passed away unfortunately, about a year and a half ago, and before she died, she wanted to connect with Kayoko Wakita, who actually gave the eulogy at my grandfather's funeral. And she has, I just spoke with her a couple months ago, and she had really nice things to say, yeah. But the museum, there are some pieces, you know, there are some pictures of exhibits they had a chrysanthemum-- you know people would grow flowers and be able to display them. They had a stick figure exhibit where you could cut-- whittle sticks and make shapes or animals out of them. So I mean people had to use whatever resources they had, and they couldn't go to a store to- to do that. So, 00:39:00I think, you know he pivoted obviously. It's like COVID right now, it's like, what do you do? You know, I think he came up with-- there was one called Relocation Week that was, I think you were to show what you brought in your suitcase. Yeah, I have the poster from that exhibit, yeah... So, yeah you don't really think about it, and the thing I say to people is that no one knew when World War II was going to end. You know, we know now, but it's like, when is COVID gonna end? You know, right now we don't... you know, we think maybe it's over, or getting there? But yeah, who knows? So, it was a very uncertain time, and I'm just thankful that, I believe my family stored things in a Buddhist 00:40:00temple in LA and it wasn't broken into, so-- I'm fortunate to have a lot of things that they probably didn't bring to Manzanar, that they trusted other people to take care of.

JJU: Wow. So yeah, that's such a huge pivot that he made.

LN: Yeah, huge pivot. I mean, I-I have pictures of him in like, you know suits, and doing all sorts of things in Chicago, and then he's collecting bugs with mosquito nets, so--

JJU: Which I'm sure made like a huge difference for people who are in Manzanar, you know?

LN: Yeah, yeah.

JJU: Do you, I found that "what you brought in your suitcase" so interesting, do you know any other exhibits that they had that stand out to you?

LN: The Relocation Week, the Ansel Adams exhibit, I have pictures of the chrysanthemums, they had two exhibits every month, so I mean he was, you know, 00:41:00busy. And they were thinking up new, new things for all sorts of people. And then, I do have a piece from the Manzanar Free Press about him, that other people kind of maybe they weren't laughing at him about it, but they were kind of like, yeah, we're not going to participate. But in the end, I think it really did help people, to show their things and, and be proud of it. Paintings... I have another quote, sorry, from the Manzanar Free Press that I am particularly proud of. And I think it, it is good for Chicago. So in June 1945, on the, on 00:42:00the cover of the Manzanar Free Press, I don't know if you could see that. It says, "Tsuchiya to Aid Relocation Office". "Continuing to employ interviewers with outside experience, the relocation division last week added Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya," my grandfather, "to it's growing staff. Tsuchiya is well known for-- to center residents, as the past director of the Visual Education Museum. His experiences on the outside include approximately 4 months in Chicago," because he visited during World War II, "and another six months at Seabrook Farms on a trial indefinite leave. He will leave Manzanar only until he finds suitable employment." He wrote, he said "'Chicago, the city of foreigners', said Tsuchiya, 'offers far greater and more varied opportunities than California ever did. In general, this is true of the whole East.' Seabrook has done mu- much 00:43:00more than halfway in working things out for the evacuees. It is a fine place for persons who desire to do manual work, and have, many have received promotions. Speaking of the attitude of people in center, Tsuchiya expressed his own convictions in these words, 'Fear of the outside is the first thing that disappears from the mind once we go outside. Fear is a thing that has been the result of three years away from the world. There is no reason for fear.'" So, I think that it shows that he was trying to... give the incarceree's hope that they would not, they, they could make it outside of Manzanar. Because, I've since learned, and I can understand that many people didn't even want to leave Manzanar. And, because they didn't have things to go back to. They didn't have family perhaps, I mean I'm just ready to cry just thinking about that, because I 00:44:00can see why, you know after a while you just get used to the way it is. And, even people who are currently detained right now, I mean, it's really opened my mind. Yeah, to that. Yeah.

JJU: Yeah thank you.

LN: Yeah so, I mean it's nice to find these quotes that he was trying to lift people's spirits, I think? And he was trying to illustrate that things were going to be okay. Now, he was from Chicago, so I'm sure he felt like this was a welcoming place. I believe it was, it's just hard to know how, you know, how things were. I'm, I'm kind of surprised they didn't come back to Chicago. But, 00:45:00yeah, it's kind of, I think he always regretted-- I don't think, I think the last time he was ever in Chicago was in the 40s. I don't think he ever went back again. And I was just starting to possibly-- well, I was talking to him about Chicago right before he passed away, and he still knew all the streets, he knew, I mean he knew everything. So, yeah it's sad. It would have been great if he could have come back, because the Art Institute now has the collection that the-- that George Harding had, so it's now one of the most popular exhibits at the Art Institute, and that's the, that's the work, those are the items that he worked on. Yeah.

JJU: So that's like the armor exhibit--

LN: Yeah!

JJU: In the, in the Art Institute.

LN: Yeah, that's the whole armor. Plus, there were, hundreds of other things 00:46:00that they owned, but the armor is really... If you walk through the Art Institute, and there's some Remingtons some, little statues, like the Cowboys like with the guns and bronzes. Those were George Harding's as well. And you'll see at the Art Institute how many pieces there were. There was a musical, musical instrument exhibit, so my grandfather would clean these instruments, yeah. Yeah.

JJU: And, you had a photo you wanted to share?

LN: Oh right, so when you were saying I was going to, you wanted to talk about me. So this is my family in 1969, and Toyo Miyatake's son Alan took this of my family in my grandparent's house in Los Angeles. Here's my grandfather, here's me, here's my dad, here's my mom, my grandmother, my great-grandmother, my 00:47:00mother's sister, and my cousin. And my uncle was sick that day and they took it without him, so-- Yeah. So--

JJU: The same photographer--

LN: Yes, so yeah so right here you could see Toyo Mikaytake, who was the most famous photographer other than Ansel Adams and Dorothea Lange at Manzanar. This is my grandparent's house, and yeah it kind of comes full circle because Toyo took their wedding photo and then in the 60s, you know came and took these photos, yeah.

JJU: So yeah, I-I kind of want to know h-how you made it to Chicago or the Chicago area?

LN: So I, made it to Chicago, I was... I met my then boyfriend in college, and 00:48:00he moved to Chicago. And I was in graduate school, I finished graduate school, I said I'd never move to Chicago, and I've been here for 30 years now. Almost exactly 30 years. Yeah. So, yeah so the first time I went to the Art Institute in 1990, I-- my grandfather had just died in August, I went in September, and I walked in the Art Institute and I said, "This is what my grandfather worked on. These, this is it! This, he worked on these, these pieces." Even though I had only seen photos, and my husband at that-- my boyfriend at that time was like, "Yeah, right." I mean it's kind of a crazy thing. But, I was so obsessed! I was like, "No, this is it, I know this is the stuff he worked on!" So I went to the head of the museum, I mean I went to the lobby and I demanded to talk to the 00:49:00people in charge. And the person that was in charge of the exhibit had just died in a car crash. And, I was... I didn't know what to do, I was like, I kn-- I know this is, this is what he worked on. But, because my grandfather had just died, I couldn't talk to anyone about it. And, it took years, but through a few coincidences, I was introduced to Gloria Groom, who is the head of the European Arts collection, I hope I have her title right, but she's a neighbor of mine, our, our kids were in the same class in elementary school. And long story short, I showed her these albums and she connected me with Jonathan Tavares, who was working on recreating the arms and armor exhibit, so they used these photos from 00:50:00these albums to put the exhibit together. And yeah, so kind of, kind of all happened for a reason. I mean they, they didn't know about a lot of things only because of these albums that they found out where the, where the armor was, what pieces, I mean all the armor kind of looks the same to me, sorry but it-- (shrugs) But, anyway, they know their armor, and they could identify all the different pieces. So, it felt, it felt good. It felt good to help, you know, a place like the Art Institute, and be a part of that exhibit. You know, even if I'm, I didn't do anything, I just felt like we-- you know, these photos helped, my grandfather helped for over 15 years when he was with George Harding so--

JJU: And then, just backing up a little bit or-- So did you, oh I guess when and where did you grow up?

LN: So I grew up in the Bay Area, I, I was born in Culver City, I lived in LA as a little girl. And then my family moved to Berkeley, and then they moved back to LA 'cause my dad went to graduate school at USC, and then we ended up in Oakland and Berkeley. So that's where I went to elementary school, high school, junior high.

JJU: And then did you grow up with Japanese or Japanese American family or friends nearby?

LN: So when I lived in LA, my grandparents in this picture had a, had a house and then they had a rental house. I grew up in that rental house when I lived in LA, which was really great 'cause you have your grandparents and 00:52:00great-grandmother right next door. When I was in grammar school, when I was in like third or fourth grade, I really wanted to learn Japanese, and so I went to Japanese school. Even though my mom did not speak Japanese to me, even though she flu-- she spoke fluent Japanese, she just didn't. And so I tried, that was not very successful. But I will say my daughter is fluent in Japanese, and has lived in Japan, and teaches Japanese now, so I feel like it just skipped a generation. (laughs)

JJU: Did your family participate in Japanese American organizations or activities?

LN: You know my mom really did not, I mean later in life she finally embraced her Japanese side, she joined a sansei group, I got her to go to Manzanar, a few, a few times we went to Manzanar. She went another time without me, but she 00:53:00was not, she did not feel very proud of her Japanese side. And my daughter is so proud to, to be part Japanese that my mom was just like really taken aback by it. And my mother finally started accepting that, and it felt really good. It's just a shame that she passed away because it all, everything was kind of just coming together with, with my daughter. My mom was gonna go to Japan to go see her there, my mom was taking Japanese to re-, you know, re-engage her language skills, so, it was really-- It's like a dagger in my heart every day that-- it just, you know that she isn't here. Yeah. But, you made me think of something 00:54:00else. My mom was very driven, and kind of, I think she, I'm not gonna say, she wasn't very proud of her Japanese side, so she just excelled in all the things she did. She was really, a hard worker. She worked for McKinsey and Company, she worked for Steve Jobs at Apple. And she, she retired when she was in her 40s. And then her second husband passed away kind of unexpectedly. And she decided to go to law school when she turned 50. And, she got a perfect score on her LSAT, she went to UC Berkeley, and became a lawyer. And she was a lawyer until she found out she had cancer. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that she was very driven, 00:55:00and a lot of that had to do with pleasing her parents and making them, you know, she was always trying to make them proud. Although, they weren't real happy 'cause my parents actually eloped, and... because their parents weren't happy about them getting married. I'm all over the place, sorry.

JJU: Did you learn about the incarceration-- How did you learn about the incarceration?

LN: I always heard my family talking about camp, and like a lot of people I thought it was like, a summer camp. But I guess it was probably around like 13, 14, 15 when I had to do this project, that I realized that camp was something different. So I think I, I always knew my mom was born at Manzanar, but I didn't really know what that was. And I didn't go to Manzanar until 2009. Even though I 00:56:00tried to get her to go v-- a lot of times. She did not want to go. But once we went, she loved it. Yeah, she loved it. And she went back multiple times, yeah. So, I think people, she thought it was going to be this really sad, sad place, but it was, you know, an inspiring place. And we've donated things to the Manzanar museum, so it's nice to see you know, like this document, some posters, photos, things like that, yeah.

JJU: And, and when you had to do this project, were you just like, I need to fly over there or was your mom like, let's go-- You know, I-I guess how did that happen?

LN: Yeah, I-- You know, it's funny that we flew to Los Angeles just to do this interview because I guess we could've done it on the phone maybe back then? But, 00:57:00we flew to LA to do this interview, it was November, I mean it was-- And w- and I think my mom said, I've never heard my parents talk about camp, and now, I'm gonna hear what it was really like. So, she wanted to come with me, and we both, we both went.

JJU: What was that like for you?

LN: That was overwhelming, actually, I put my heart and soul into this pro-- this report, and honestly, you're not going to believe me but-- I got really, really sick after that, like maybe, like, the flu or mono after that, and I've, I've never been sick a day since then. I've never missed work, I've never missed school, because-- I felt like that report, I put everything into that report, again, I was a sophomore in high school. You know. I've worked a lot harder on other things, but it was probably really emotionally difficult, that I didn't 00:58:00realize that it was hard to hear those things, and learn new things about my grandparents that I had no idea. Yeah.

JJU: Wow. Yeah, I-I guess like how do you see it relating to your own identity, like this family history that you have?

LN: Yeah, I-- You know, I love talking about it, but again, like I'm almost about to cry right now because it's-- It's just been my little platform you know, it's just been what I've been doing. Probably, I've been talking about it a while but the, "Then They Came For Me" exhibit, you know, Richard Cahan was so nice to ask for, if I had any items. And, my family had a letter that was in the 00:59:00exhibit that went to New York as well. It was a letter that a doctor wrote to my grandmother while she was at Manzanar, and it was really powerful to show maybe how naive and unknowledgeable people were about what was going on at the camps-- I'm sorry now I forgot your question. (laughs)

JJU: Oh, how--

LN: Oh! Yeah,

JJU: --does your family history relate to like your own identity?

LN: So, I feel like I wear it on my sleeve, I feel like it's a l-- it, it's a l-- a big part of me. I mean I feel more Japanese probably than I did growing up, way more knowledgeable, way more proactive and outspoken about things. But I still have a lot of work to do probably, I still have a lot of learning to do. 01:00:00You know, I know a lot about Manzanar, I've been to Heart Mountain, I have not been to, I've, I've made it-- I want to go to every site in my lifetime. And I feel like I'm just, I don't know, there's, there's a reason that these weird things happen to me. I've had a lot of really great coincidences, that I know are like, I don't know, my grandparents or great-grandparents just like making things happen for me regarding this. Tomorrow I'm gonna be on a podcast, I mean, how does that happen? There's a documentary about my family being worked on, I mean I'm very fortunate, but it's hard to talk about, yeah. I think it's hard because, there's a lot of shame that my grandparents had you know so-- And my mom, oh, my mom broke down and cried at the "Then They Came For Me" exhibit, and 01:01:00I felt horrible because I brought her there, and she just fell apart. And, she said I've never cried about it, and she went to the exhibit, she was so... Taken aback by everything, that it just-- all of a sudden she just started crying. And so-- And my mom wasn't a big crier like that, so-- Yeah, I think it's, I mean, things, let's face it, it's 2021, things are changing, but it's still hard to talk about. Yeah.

JJU: Yeah, thanks so much for talking with us, you know?

LN: Oh! Sorry I'm like, whoooo, yeah, but I think it's... it's good. It's good.

JJU: Do you feel kind of connected to other Japanese American people, groups in Chicago?

LN: I, I feel really lucky to be a part of Nikkei Uprising, even though I don't feel like I'm not as active as I'd like to be. I'm currently cleaning out my mom's house, which is again, a dagger in the heart because she saved everything. And, how do you get rid of these things, or how do you sort through them? But, I would like to be a lot more active, I'm, hopeful that I will have time to be more active, and I like everybody that's involved, I'm, I'm so impressed with everyone all the time. I just feel like I'm, dropping the ball. (laughs)

JJU: (laughs) That's not true! I don't know if this is within my interview job--

LN: Oh yeah right!

JJU: --But, that's not true at all!

LN: No, no thank you! I, I'm learning a lot, I'm learning a lot, I have a lot 01:03:00of, I'm, I have s-some Japanese friends, I mean being bi-racial, I have a lot of bi-racial friends too. Growing up in Berkeley, it was very common to have people from every, I mean, my friends are of all different backgrounds. So, I feel lucky. Yeah.

JJU: And, I know you touched on this earlier but is, is there kind of, ways that you feel, I-I think you spoke about how your mom kind of felt the intergenerational impacts--

NL: Yeah.

JJU: --of incarceration, like how do you feel it's kind of, in your generation, your children--

NL: I feel like, it's interesting, my mom had the intergenerational trauma, I 01:04:00feel like I'm-- I'm not going to say warming up to that, but it's, it's been something that, I've recognized more and more, especially with learning about HR40 and, and I had testimony for reparations for African Americans. I don't feel as much like I have endured what she has endured, but I know it's in me. And I'm just, always searching for more information about my family and what they went through. I know I'm probably not answering this very well. But, my children are very aware of what happened at Manzanar, they've been there, they 01:05:00preach it. So, that feels right. I mean, for me to not know these things unless I t-- had the interview with my grandparents, that's kind of, a shame. However I will say that the last time I ever saw my grandfather, I tape recorded his life story, thank goodness, because, I use that as what I know about him, and that's how I know these, crazy stories about, about him. I mean, because I have them on tape. So I'm very lucky that I even taped that, because if he had just told it to me, I probably wouldn't have even remembered all the information that he gave. But, I think that everybody has intergenerational trauma, it's just some people, it's really, right here, and maybe some people it's, down a little bit. Yeah.

JJU: Yeah. We're getting kinda, toward the end of our time, so I just, if-- wanted to ask if there's anything you really want to share?

LN: Umm,

JJU: I-I feel like we could ask you questions forever!

LN: I know! I-I-I feel like I've touched on, a lot of things that are important to me, I mean, I still think it's fascinating that I, I have Chicago roots, you know from, 100 years ago. But, I'd like to, know more about what happened, it's just really hard to do that. And, I just think it's remarkable that my grandfather could have accomplished so many things even though perhaps he didn't think he did, I don't know, tha-- it just breaks my heart. He really did do a lot. Yeah, so, and my mom too, I think, she really wasn't, she was too young to pass away, she passed away at 74, my grandfather died at 90. You know, I thought 01:07:00she'd, live a long time, so-- Yeah, you just, life is short, so you just gotta, do the right thing. That's what I would say.

JJU: Alright, yeah, we'll close there.