Sasaki, Fred (3/23/2021)

Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is March 23rd, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Fred Sasaki. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center, in order to document the experiences of Japanese-Americans in the Chicago area. We'll start with just some background questions for context. Could you please state your full name?

Fred Sasaki: My name is Fred John Sasaki.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And what's your year of birth?

Fred Sasaki: October 1st, 1976.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born?

Fred Sasaki: Chicago, Illinois. St. Joseph's Hospital in Lakeview on Belmont and Sheridan Road.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you. And now we're going to talk a little bit about 00:01:00your family's pre-war experience as, as much as possible, as you know.

Fred Sasaki: Mhmm.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know when your family first came to the United States?

Fred Sasaki: Dates are very difficult for me, so I can kind of give you like, my understanding. My grandmother was actually born in Los Angeles. And I've asked my uncle, my Uncle John. My, my named Fred after my father and John after my uncle. I was actually known in my youth as Fred John. And so my, I've asked him and he doesn't really have a good sense either, but we do know that she was born in Los Angeles. My grandfather was born in Japan, Yamanashi Prefecture. His family and my grandmother's family actually lived beside each other, both named Sasaki. And she, when she married my grandfather, I understand that she lost her 00:02:00citizenship, which she regained subsequent. I'm not, I'm unclear if she regained her citizenship before or after incarceration, but she always worked in dry cleaning or cleaning clothes. Was very entrepreneurial, very hardworking, diligent, ambitious. And that's about what I know of life prior to incarceration. I'm trying to think of any other details but that's, that's about what I know.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know if they lived within a community of other Japanese families?

Fred Sasaki: I believe so. You know I, I went to visit LA a few years ago for 00:03:00the first time really. You know, I've been once maybe as a, as a very small child, but this is the first time I was conscious of my visit and it was amazing. I, I actually did feel, it felt like a homecoming or it felt like I belonged there. It was, it was heartwarming in a way. I actually traveled to where my father had grown up. The home wasn't there and there was really no sense of community. There were just like large either governmental or university buildings. But I don't really have a great sense of what the community was like for them. You know, I feel like I tend to pa-patch together things I've heard from other people. And I want to say that yes, I think that they lived amongst other Japanese Americans, but I, I'm really unclear.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Just to clarify, this is your father's mother that you were speaking of?

Fred Sasaki: My father's mother. Yeah. My, my and mother is actually an immigrant from Poland.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And were any members of your family incarcerated during 00:04:00World War II?

Fred Sasaki: Yes. My father, my uncle, my grandparents, my, my paternal grandparents and other relatives too. I have some aunts and other relations that it's very hard for me to keep track of. I get the sort of genealogy really mixed up, but a lot of us.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know where they were incarcerated?

Fred Sasaki: Incarcerated at Heart Mountain, Wyoming. And I believe they spent some time... I, this is, I always get confused if it was Manzanar or Topaz, but there, there was, there was one or two stops along the way, but Heart Mountain was where they were primarily.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you been able to research that history at all? Are there resources that you've called on to help with that?

Fred Sasaki: A little bit. You know I've looked, when I went to LA, I visited the Japanese American National Museum and I looked up the records, which I was so comforted and happy to find. And, it was actually a really nice experience 00:05:00that they had one of the barracks reconstructed. I, I don't know if it's on permanent display or if it was just for that one display for that ex-exhibition. But I was really interested to see that because I had heard you know many people describe it but my father described it... And I have a lot of papers and documentation that my father had saved up, books... You know and, and I, so I haven't really done thorough or diligent research, but I've been sort of poking around, and I, I have intentions to learn more, which is partly why I am here. But most recently, you know so my father died maybe close to eight years now. I recently found a little file folder with his reparations documentation all saved 00:06:00very carefully, but that's, that's about the extent of it. Oh, and also photos. I have some photos from the camps, so I, I have a kind of, like almost incidental knowledge or awareness.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know approximately how old your father was when he went into camp?

Fred Sasaki: Yes. I think he was about four. It's so funny, I actually have it in a little booklet I brought with me but yeah, he was a, a young boy. I think he was there from ages around four to eight, something like that? Maybe slightly older and that my, my uncle might have been closer to that age, but yeah, yeah boyhood.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And is this something that your family talked about openly when you were growing up?

Fred Sasaki: Not too much. I knew about it, and of course looking back, I think like so many JAs, I, I, I'm surprised how little we spoke of it. Or how little 00:07:00we discussed the, the impact of it or just the magnitude of it. 'Cause it was something that, that happened or maybe growing up I felt like, "Yeah, that happened. But it wasn't really important or it wasn't like a significant part of my father's life or my family's life." No. I think it certainly wasn't anything that they presented as being defining of them. And I think I was aware of Reparations when it happened. Particularly because of another person in the family, the sort of, which I, I meant to begin telling you about. We had a, there was a man named Jerry who lived in my grandmother's house. And I loved 00:08:00Jerry so much and I didn't know him very well, but he was a, an old man that lived in my grandmother's basement. And he was not a blood relation, but my family knew him from the camp, was my understanding. And so when he was in, I don't know the, the sort of timeline, but he came to live with them. He had no one else. And he would in the daytime, actually, live at the family store in the cleaners in like a, a spare room. And he was sort of, my father would very lovingly talk about him as the sort of safe keeper of the dry cleaners. And would be there to guard against robbers, stealing what I don't know, dirty clothes. (laughs) But you know, and so during the day, Jerry would sit by the door with his cane and greet people as they come and go. And he was really just 00:09:00a, a wonderful fixture and at night he'd you know tuck himself in the back. My father was very anxious always of, of, of theft and robbery like I'm sure many business owners. But over time I've come to wonder, like you know, our family was robbed right? And you know robbed of possessions of property, which were both major obsessions of him throughout his life. Always like you know, wanting property, looking at property, interested in, in you know physical possessions. I guess you know that's also American capitalism and right? Like sort of our common experience, but I wonder how much of that, the anxiety of loss propelled that. But anyways, we'd, he'd check on the store. We'd come late at night, a little kid, he'd open the doors and there were always alarms. The alarms on the grandmother's house. And you know, and he'd tell me how the chandeliers would, you know if the alarm would activate, the chandelier would, would reach down and 00:10:00grab intruders and I was like amazed. I think I set the alarm off on purpose once to see if it would happen. But anyways, we'd go into the store and always the same greeting to Jerry, "Douka, Jerry!" Which I, I apparently is a sort of, very casual Japanese American greeting that I haven't really heard about since. But, "Douka Jerry!" Like, oh, we caught another robber on the roof! But then on the weekends, Jerry would stay at my grandmother's house and watch TV in the basement. I was aware of reparations specifically around Jerry. Because when Jerry received his, there were people who sort of came out of the woodwork trying to you know, claim the money on his behalf or suddenly care for him.

Emma Saito Lincoln: That's interesting. So people, people claiming to be his family members, you think?

Fred Sasaki: That was my understanding. That there were like folks that suddenly appeared that tried to get his money, was the way I understood it. And my, my, 00:11:00my father and, and my uncle and my grandmother all protected him in this way.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know his last name?

Fred Sasaki: Not off the top of my head. I would need to like spend some, yeah think about it or ask around.

Emma Saito Lincoln: If you would guess at his age, was he the same generation as your grandmother, you think?

Fred Sasaki: A little bit older, I would say. Sorry Jerry, I've, I've forgotten your last name.

Emma Saito Lincoln: So I'd like to, to dive a little deeper into what you were saying about loss, and properties. Do you know--

Fred Sasaki: Yeah, one thing I want to say before we do that, I'm sorry, is that another side of this story that I think is very complicated, is the way that my mother's side of the family or sort of the larger family understood or discussed or didn't discuss incarceration. And I'm reluctant to say it because I love my 00:12:00mother and I know she cares for us and meant no ill in her understanding of the camps. And so I always grew up feeling like maybe she thought it was justified, or that it was understandable, or that it was for good reason, sort of like the way that people speak about stop and frisk, you know? "Oh, it's not for no reason." And, I think that was very limiting to the conversation too. Especially because, you know, my mother being an immigrant, my father having been an incarcerated Japanese American, the, the drive to assimilate will of course say, "Yeah. You know, hey, you know, you guys did the best you could do, right? Like we're here for you. You know, god bless America." Which was very much my father's attitude. And he became very sort of conservative Republican, you know? 00:13:00Loved Ronald Reagan so much, like idolized him really, you know Bush, too. And I feel fairly sure that he would've absolutely loved Donald Trump. And it breaks my heart to say that but I, I, I believe so. But again, you, we're pivoting into property and loss.

Emma Saito Lincoln: But before we do that, I am wondering if you could speak a little bit more about your mother's side, the Polish side of your family. And if she spent the war as a child in Poland, was that ever discussed, her own family's wartime experience?

Fred Sasaki: Yes. Thank you. She, she did. And it, that, I think, influenced her feeling and thinking dramatically. She was one year old when the war broke out in Poland. And she famously spent the first year of her life sleeping in a 00:14:00suitcase, like literally that was her crib. And she was herself, forcibly removed from her home. They were living in an area I, in Silesia. Again, I'm, I'm hazy on the details. But she was shipped out in the, the dark of night to Bitum, by Russian soldiers who patrolled their lives, lived above them. She was denied education. There was a time in her life where it was illegal for Poles to receive an education. And it's funny how retroactively, as I have become you know, an activist in my own right, and you know, I see myself as an abolitionist. And I, I work with people who have been impacted by the criminal 00:15:00legal system and to end prisons. I have reframed my mother's childhood experience to her. I think maybe to also help me, but then to also maybe find a way to unite us that I've, I've called her... That, that she, I'm saying that she was a re-- a war resistor. That she was, you know defying the power because her mother found tutors for her, and continued her education under, right? Fear of imprisonment. Who knows? Maybe death? I don't really know but right? Like she, they weren't supposed to be doing that. So I like to say that it was a different word that I was using that was more, more powerful, but I, I like to say that she was part of the Polish resistance, because she was! And so I think that she feels a lot of bitterness. And forgive me for saying so to my mother, 00:16:00because her pain and her plight is so underrepresented, overlooked, not considered at all. You know, she came to America and she was a dumb Polack, you know? And so even then, that hierarchy of like white supremacy, that, that like, it was very warped in my own family. Because it, I always felt like the hierarchy was my Japanese American family, in part because that's how my mother met my father. She was my grandmother's cleaning lady. And so it's a very romantic, like classic Chicago story. Japanese American, dry cleaning family, all very close to home. My grandmother, my father lived with my grandmother. My uncle lived across the street. The store was down the road, all within this like 00:17:00quarter city block. And my grand-- my, my mother was moonlighting 'cause she had come to America as a chamber maid for Mrs. Pirie, from Carson Pirie Scott, the, you know the retailer. Yeah, actually my, my mother's first date with my father, she borrowed a fur from Mrs. Pirie. Or actually Mrs. Pirie lent her the fur to make a good impression on her first date. And so yeah, that, that dynamic, that hierarchy was, was really pronounced for me. Like I really felt that and... So yes, to my mother, I do feel like you know, her experience has been really overlooked and sort of repressed within her. Yeah.

Emma Saito Lincoln: So to pivot again to this notion of property and, and loss, 00:18:00and you were describing your father's behavioral patterns when you were a child. Do you know if your family owned property prior to the war that was lost as a result? There are many ways that families lost things right at that time, but was there, was there real property or land or a building?

Fred Sasaki: I'm not sure.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And, as you were growing up, did you feel that the willingness to talk or not talk about the experience was the same with your grandmother as it was with your father and your uncle or was there a generational difference?

Fred Sasaki: I think you know, I didn't have the opportunity or I didn't s-speak with my grandmother in this way. I think a lot because of age, maybe the family 00:19:00dynamic... You know I, I feel like my father and my uncle were very open to speaking. My uncle even more so, who I think has, has really intellectualized things, and has spent a, a good time reckoning with everything that happened. Whereas, I think my father was more happy to go along and make the best of things and to see everything in a, in a positive light. But he also, I don't think that they had much to say, because I remember asking many times and my father would remember it. And it's funny because you want, right like, this is, as a Japanese American, like this, this is our major trauma, and it's like 00:20:00it's-- And I would love to talk a little bit about like sort of coming into the realization of the horror of it or to sort of embody the anger of it. Which I didn't even think you could be angr-- angry about it until a certain point in time but you know he always talked about it fondly, you know, as a good time. That he had fun in camp. That he played with his friends and he played kick the can, he said or whatever. And you know, now, in part of my research, I'm actually very fascinated with basketball in the camps. Which I, and I see these beautiful photos and understand how like the sport flourished in camp. Right? Because it, it very much reflected the Japanese ideal of, of family and camaraderie and teamwork. And I, I've read about people who'd speak about basketball as a, as a sort of a, a mourning space, a place for collective 00:21:00mourning. Which I find so fascinating. Also understanding that I guess, women's basketball or girls' basketball proliferated in the camp. Right? Because so, the patriarchy was abolished and there was all this room and freedom for women and girls to compete and to be physical. And apparently, this had a, like a, such a lasting impact on Japanese American basketball, particularly on the West Coast and at the collegiate and professional levels, so I'm very fascinated with that. But yes, so my father remembers it as a, as a happy time. But of course, recognizing that they lived in horse stalls and there was no privacy and pain, more painful for his parents. But yeah, that was kind of the way he, he spoke of it.

Emma Saito Lincoln: So when did you start to learn about the, the entire 00:22:00experience, more than just the stories you have heard from your family, when, when did you start looking into it more yourself?

Fred Sasaki: So I've, I've, I found solidarity with artists and activists and abolitionists. I've... And actually this interview has helped clarify that for me. Like, where did this begin to take shape in my, my heart, in my mind, and in my now lived experience? Forgive if I'm getting a little emotional, I didn't expect it. I mean, I did expect it, but... So, a friend of mine, Sarah Dodson, publishes this mag-- literary magazine called Make Magazine, and they were playing an international issue. And I sort of understood, well you know I, my family's international like, and sort of giving myself that permission. And I understand that my whole childhood, that my parents were really focused on 00:23:00making me into a white, American boy. That was like, number one and discouraging affiliation with any kind of group, particularly like Asian groups. I was sort of warned against it. You know, my father, growing up, my father would, you know no one asked him, would openly talk about how he didn't find Asian women attractive or Japanese women attractive. You know, and I didn't understand what was happening there you know? But now I see, like oh my-- anything to get away from that, you know? Even though he was always, I felt like the, the Japanese American community was always dear to him and always important. And he always made an effort to expose me to that and to be part of the Japanese American 00:24:00picnics, and to, to you know, have ties to the Japanese American Service Committee, you know, particularly through food and culture you know? But it was always at this American remove. And so um, I'm sorry I'm not very linear here, but I'll tell you that my, one of my father's last wishes was to have his ashes scattered in Japan, in Epcot Center, Disney World. So not in Japan itself, but in Disney World. And I was with my son. So we, he took us on this magical trip to Disney World, me and my, my son. I have three children, all mixed, mixed Cuban, Japanese, Polish. And, his priorities at Disney World, visit China, see the panoramic movie, and to go to Japan. Where we will have chicken teriyaki and 00:25:00Sapporo beer in the courtyard and then visit the , the Japanese shop, always number one favorite thing. And we're sitting there having our Sapporo and chicken teriyaki, reclining amongst you know the, the tree by the bridge. And he says to me, you know, "Fred John, when I die, I want you to come here and spread my ashes." You know and at first I was like, "Oh my God. What? Like this is Disney World. This is like an artificial amusement park. How could you ask that of me?" And I was you know, an unkind, ungrateful child. And you know, mind you, I was a, a grown adult, but when he did die, I made sure to get a little urn that I could wear on a necklace. And we scheduled a trip for my entire family to go back to Disney World, and went to Japan to, to scatter his ashes. And I'm so 00:26:00grateful that he did because it was such a beautiful occasion for my family. And really true to his experience or ideal of Japanese Americanness, you know? Backed by, by the American dollar and Disney bucks. So I think I've lost the, the train of, of our, of our question but--

Emma Saito Lincoln: No. That was a, a wonderful story that you shared. Thank you.

Fred Sasaki: Oh yes, finding solidarity with artists. So she asked for this international, for a copy for the international issue. And I thought, "Well you know, I would really love to write about my family and to look at the incarceration." Because I had recently found like the store of photos that my father had kept. And there were like these, most of them were portraits of my grandmother that he had taken in sort of all her glamour. Because throughout her 00:27:00American experience, she had sort of undergone this, this fabulous sort of American transformation. She had gone from being Asako Sasaki to Mona Sasaki. And had really kinda patterned herself in the likeness of, of Elizabeth Taylor and Liberace and American grandeur, you know? Wigs and eyelashes and jewelry. And so I had, was absolutely captivated by these photos, and I love them so much and I showed them to everyone who came over to my house. I'm like, "Look at my family photos. Aren't they amazing? They're so beautiful." And people like really seemed to be sort of stunned by them. I mean they were, they're quite bizarre and there were the photos from the camp. So I thought, well, why don't I, why don't I try to write about the incarceration experience or what I knew or what I saw connected to it through my family experience? And I did it, and I put 00:28:00so much of myself into it and I was very proud of it. And it published and, you know it received praise that I thought was very comforting but also upsetting in certain ways. Like I remember the, the, the piece came out and someone had reviewed it on some literary website. And it was, it was a white male reviewer who was sort of applauding my restraint or sort of the lack of emotion or weepiness. He didn't use 'weepiness'. He used a word that I'm not remembering that is like, was even more infuriating than the ones I've used. But I thought, "Huh." I was like, "He's glad that, that I sanitized this experience for him, and that I wasn't angry or sad." And that made me furious! (laughs) And, you 00:29:00know I received you know monetary awards from the Illinois Arts Council, which, you know I have to say was so important to me. Because I was like, "Wow, like you know they, they feel this is important and they're recognizing this." And I felt so supported and happy, and the work has you know, subsequently been you know, used in classrooms and anthologized. But it also surfaced a lot of family hurt, which I can talk about in a little bit too. But, so what, what I mean to say is that I found support for this investigation or for this work through the artist community. And later too in some other imagery that I'll share with you, you know, work that's been included in exhibitions, or people want to like talk about and want to see, and want to like be part of like this sort of reframing or, or like look back at, at America. And I had a, like the watershed moment for me was I went to do something totally disconnected at Vocalo, at the radio station at WBEZ. And I was sitting with a, a sound artist, Jesse Seay, who's a 00:30:00Japanese American sound artist. And I either told her about this work or she had seen it, I'm not sure. And she said, "Yeah, that's, that's outrageous. That's infuriating. That's horrible." Like you know, I don't know exactly what she said but she was so angry and outraged. And I was like surprised because I had never seen anyone speak about it in those terms. It was always something like, "Oh, I understood this happened. You know, it's not that bad. You know we've moved forward. You know, I'm a good American. I've proved you know, my worth." And I was like so confused and excited and like, "Wow, right!" Like, I can be angry about this. Like, I'm entitled to feel like outraged and upset and hurt and I 00:31:00could tell somebody about that. And so from there I was like, I had a, like a new perspective or, or frame for it, which I think has been, been very helpful. Particularly because now in those same communities, we are able to, to gather strength and mobilize to help other people, and to fight to end all incarceration and detention of immigrants. And you know that's why the, the growing movements with Tsuru For Solidarity I feel like is so beautiful and so impactful. Even in Chicago, the Nikkei Uprising and seeing young people like adopt these abolitionist principles and sort of look at our shared history and how it's being repeated. And you know, I have to say, in places like the Japanese American Service Committee is, these are places where I see it all come together because my lives are so fractured in certain ways. There's the artistic 00:32:00life, there's the family life and then there's a professional life you know and they mingle sometimes. But here they like, you'll be at an event and you'll see everybody all together, and it's all fitting in, in this like really important way, practical ways too. So yeah, I think, I think I answered that question.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you. you've brought with you, some things to share.

Fred Sasaki: Yes, I did.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Seeing that publication about--

Fred Sasaki: Yes. And so this is where I can talk about... So my incarceration experience is, is sort of fraught with the aftermath or the, the family hurt that, like I said, was sort of activated or raised through this. And so, this is my grandma Mona, and this is her in her home. And these are the sort of portraits that my father would take. You know, she loved trying on her dresses and seeing how she looked standing or sitting. And she also loved to pose behind 00:33:00objects and would, would touch them or sort of pose with them very sweetly. I still have this phone, which my children sometimes play with. But she's on the cover because the cover art for the issue fell through and they were scrambling. They didn't know what to do. And I'm friends with the, the publisher editor and I was like, "Hey, you know, I, I've got all these other photos, maybe you want to check it out." And they came over and you know they, they put it in a puzzle piece. They're like, "We're going to go for it." And they did and I'm glad they did. But these are the photos from the camps of my, my father and my uncle, my grandma and my grand-- my grandmother and my grandfather and some other folks. And then, so I think I would write this very differently now and I'd probably change a lot of things in here, but this publication basically upset everybody 00:34:00in my family. My father became very nervous and felt it was very dangerous or you know, that I shouldn't really be doing it, but he was always encouraging no matter what and loving always. My mother was upset about it for very similar reasons. "We shouldn't speak about family really to other people, or no need to like dru-- drum up you know dirty laundry" or laundry period. But then, my Japanese side of the family, th-this is where the soreness I think was, was really felt acutely. That I had, I had done something against the family? I feel like, or that I had misrepresented or maybe I had been exploitative? They, this 00:35:00is not the way it was put to me, but I'm wondering because that's my own fear. Right? Like I, yes, I'm entitled to my anger or my experience, but like, c-- like w-what does it mean to appropriate Japanese culture as like, right a hapa, an American, biracial person? And I think that when I presented this work externally, there was also a lot of anxiety or shame. And I remember the first time I, I read it at like, it was some like you know apartment house, apartment poetry reading. And there were all of these you know, people who I didn't know, and who I was very intimidated by because they were artists like and they were poets and they were like legit. And here I presented my work and I thought, "Oh my God, like I'm coming here with like pictures, like to, like illustrations 00:36:00from my story because I wasn't strong enough." You know, and I felt embarrassed that I was like leveraging or using my family history in a way that, I don't know, I was worried that it was, I was using it to bolster my own like identity or experience. You know sort of also like, like the feelings of the, of an imposter syndrome too. Like just totally fronting because this isn't my real lived ex-- it, it isn't like my lived experience. Although I do feel like right, it's in my DNA, and it is part of my history and has clearly had an impact and continues to. But I didn't of course see it at that way at that time. But I remember the shame I felt presenting it and the insecurity, which, you know, I think could be true if I had written about rainbows. But, I remember it feeling 00:37:00specifically about race and about my race in the room. Which I had no real kind of concept of 'cause it was still really developing, and still is. Or times when I you know, read it before you know, an entirely kind of white, affluent audience. And then you know this very kind, caring, you know, white woman coming up to me afterwards and sort of, like apologizing to me after I read the work. And I remember thinking, "Oh, like you know, this is so strange." Like who exactly is she speaking to? Because I didn't feel like it was really me being addressed or that it wasn't really about me. Although you know, I know that it just, it felt like I was caught up in some sort of bizarre performance, you know? And maybe that's you know, unkind of me or-- I know it's very complicated 00:38:00and it's not saying it's one thing or another, but I remember those experiences being sort of upsetting in that way. And I guess I just have to trust that. Like it didn't feel right. But yeah, so my, my relatives, and again, like I feel very sensitive about this because this is such sensitive things. I don't want to embarrass or hurt anyone by, by saying these details. But I think it's very important to know that like my own relatives, someone whom I love, like they wanted to sue me because I had written like-- This is like a-- you know, Sarah, it's a wonderful journal. But I mean it's like a, a little literary publication right? It doesn't matter. Nobody cares, right? But it was, it was enough to want to forcibly stop it and to punish, right? So I'm also of course very proud 00:39:00right, that I elicited that, but not really, you know? I think it's just, it's an important to, important part of the story.

Emma Saito Lincoln: How did you, how did you move past that with your family, assuming that you did? How did you repair those relationships?

Fred Sasaki: Well, we talked more, and I think that because there, there's so much estrangement in my family. And we, and I also wonder if that had, is, was a product of incarceration or the sort of, how, the closeness that they had to maintain to survive, and that maybe it, it was like, it got to be too much, I guess like many families, right? This isn't like... But at, at one point, the, the family kind of broke apart and lost contact, and so there's very little trust or understanding. And so I think that this particular instance, we got 00:40:00over it through just getting to know each other more. And I think when she understood like what my deal is, she was like, "Okay, I get it. Like you, you weren't trying to mess us up or you know, degrade or my, my grandmother." Yeah so I think just... And I know I, that there should be more talking and you know, there, there is still time to repair the family but is there? I don't know. But that's what I would say, just through more, more talking and greater understanding.

Emma Saito Lincoln: So if you don't mind, I'd like to pick up the, the thread again of family movement. So we have your pre-war, your grandmother and 00:41:00grandfather on the West Coast, and then during the war at Heart Mountain. And, how did they come to be in Chicago, do you know?

Fred Sasaki: So, with inaccuracies, so with a grain salt, my understanding is that somehow my grandfather and maybe grandmother too, secured work release from the camps. And they worked at I think, laundries or some kind of cleaning f-facilities nearby and would come and go then 'cause they were working in the business bef-- in L.A. And I believe my grandma had a shop in L.A. which was like significant right? Like Japanese woman business owner in L.A. pre-second World War? And actually one of my other relatives, and I'm forgetting now who he 00:42:00is. Akira was his name. He was, I think, one of the first or the first Japanese American bank owner in that area. I have a wonderful photo of him with his head bandaged. They were attacked by the lead pipe gang. And he was clobbered and eventually he had a metal plate put in his head and eventually died from those injuries. So they're very industrious like hardworking people. But yeah, so after the camp, there was like some work release. And eventually they made their way to Reno where I believe they, there was, they were working in laundry there as well. And I think, and this is, this was a new detail I found by, I recently found my father's high school, one of his school books. Which I really need to 00:43:00bring to you because it actually speaks a little bit about his, his pre post-war experience because it was like a, like a children's narrative. You know like, "My life is..." Et cetera. But there was a detail in there, which I never knew that there was some movement between Topaz-- I mean sorry, Reno and Chicago. I think they were in Reno, went to Chicago, came back to Reno and then back to Chicago, something like this. And I don't know why, but eventually ended up in, in Chicago, and made their way building this wonderful dry cleaner and life for us in Chicago.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you get the sense that they knew people in Chicago before they came here?

Fred Sasaki: Yes, yes. Because I think that there were a lot of folks. I mean, there were relatives. And I always did get the sense, you know walking around, what I think we're now retroactively called, calling Japantown like Lakeview, 00:44:00Lincoln Park, right? He you know, he knew so many people and so many Japanese American business owners, and we'd stop in and visit them and patronize them as much as possible. And I, I really didn't appreciate that or see what he was doing at that time. So yeah, I did feel, I do feel like they came here with community or... Yeah. I don't know specifically but that's my sense.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And then, well let's talk about the family business a little bit.

Fred Sasaki: Sure.

Emma Saito Lincoln: What was the name of the business?

Fred Sasaki: Barry Regent Dry Cleaners. Oh and, you know what? I didn't intend to bring this, but I actually have a little printout. I, I have a friend in Chicago who, this was-- I attended one of, a reading for his book of poems, which was about growing up as a Mexican American in, in Berwyn and the sort of, 00:45:00the presence of the Latin Kings in his life and the Crowns. I thought, how interesting, you know, I joined him on stage. My friend, my, my sort of like, very much a brother to me, Jacob Saenz, I was happy that we had these crowns in common. But I think these crowns represent my, my brother, my uncle and my grandmother unless I'm making that up. But that's very much, that was like the, the heavenly triad of the, of the cleaners. I was always very proud of the cleaners growing up, and you know, spent time going there and sitting in the back and you know, it was my first job. And, yeah so shall I speak more about the business, or...

Emma Saito Lincoln: Well, I'm curious to know, well, is it still in the family?

Fred Sasaki: It is still in the family. My, my uncle owns the, the cleaners and it's managed by his son-in-law and his daughter. And I think you know that 00:46:00they're holding on through the pandemic. I think it's difficult but they've maintained.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Was there ever any pressure on you to participate in the family business as an adult?

Fred Sasaki: You know it's funny. There was, there was pressure to not go into the family business. My, for my father specifically, he, he made it his mission for me to, to live a, the life that he didn't have or that he wished he would've had. And he always, well first of all, he, he prioritized my education. And did everything he could, my grandmother too, to, to help me through school and to receive the best education that they could possibly provide. And the aim was for 00:47:00me to be successful and to support my family, but to do something I loved and then to enjoy my life. Because both he and my uncle, they were working since childhood, and never had freedom or friendship or evenings or weekends. They were just always working. And when they weren't working, they, they seemed to be with each other. So my father definitely didn't want, did not want me in the business. But then, you know, I think the business didn't want me in the business either for other reasons you know? (laughs) Because there's only so much to go around. Which I was happy about and I, I felt sure that I could, I could live without them. But it's very funny, there was a time where I was wayward in college and I thought, "Oh my God, really? What am I going to do? Maybe I should actually go into the business because that, that could, you know 00:48:00there's some security there." And I remember I phoned my father, and said, "Dad, actually, I think I'd like to go into the family business." And it was great because he was like, "Oh, about that." He had like just sold the business, thank goodness, because I, I think I'm much happier doing what I do.

Emma Saito Lincoln: So you've mentioned how your father would take you into some of the other Japanese American businesses that were in the same neighborhood. But you also mentioned how you felt you were maybe pushed away from identifying as Asian. And how do you reconcile those two very mixed messages?

Fred Sasaki: Oh my God, it feels crazy! You know, I have a couple funny stories. 00:49:00Well one that's, this is not the funny story, but what I wanted to say is that I feel such a sense of belonging at the JASC, at the events, you know, holiday delight, judo, exhibitions, whatever. This feels like a, a family place. Although I remember when I came to a camp reunion here with my father, I remember feeling like such an interloper. Or like maybe I didn't belong or I shouldn't be here, or I don't know what I'm talking about or this isn't for me. Maybe that was my own, own anxiety. No one at the place made me feel this way, absolutely not and I was so happy to, to learn what I could. But I'll tell you about, I was at a, a brainstorming meeting with colleagues from the Asian 00:50:00Pacific American Center at the Smithsonian, and, who I do some work with you know professionally and then also personally. And so they're, they're basically like a not-for-profit arm of the Smithsonian devoted to Asian Pacific Americans and specifically art. You know, literature, they do an Asian American literary festival. They do, you know, rotating exhibitions, maybe working toward a, a permanent space within the, the Smithsonian. But we're at this meeting and it's chaired by Lisa Sasaki, who is of no relation, you know? And she asked everyone who identified as you know, Japanese American or Asian American to raise their hand. And bel-- she puts a question and I thought, "Oh my God, am I, am I Japanese American?" Okay, so I know that I am, and I, I have known this my 00:51:00entire life, but I was in that room at DePaul and I froze! And I looked at my colleagues. So I have a counterpart at the Smithsonian who it's, you know I sort of see him as like a, like a kinda doppelganger, both mixed, you know, both similar roles. And I look over at him. I was like, okay, if Lawrence raises his hand, I'm going to raise my hand. So I'm like a kid like cheating on this test and I'm like looking over and he raises his hand. I'm like, oh yeah, of course, like, I'm going to raise my hand too. And, I told him this story afterwards. Of course, he laughed and he understood. And he reminded me though, he's like, "Fred." He's like, "I'm a professional Asian American." And I'm like, "Right, of course." I, but yeah so-- But then also like, there's this feeling about, well, what, what does give you the right or the ownership, the entitlement to that 00:52:00identity or experience? And something that was fraught for me as well is that looking back, I feel like I, I did have quite a lot of that and quite a, a lot of good exposure. But maybe growing up through it, we were so distanced from our culture of origin. You know my Polish culture, I, I know very little of. You know, it was not possible or safe, I think, for me to learn Polish or you know for Japanese to be passed along the lines. Like my father knew some words and could maybe speak a little bit, was, but was illiterate you know, in Japanese. 'Cause that, like when are they going to talk, speak to each other? When is that going to be comfortable to openly communicate? And so a lot of the Japanese culture I experienced growing up was through food and in restaurants. And it's like you know, I told you this morning about my Japanese breakfast. It's very 00:53:00important to me and it, it hits right in that special, inner part. But I remember, again, much love and understanding to my, my brother and my mother who would say, "Well, you know, you don't become Japanese from eating, going to Japanese restaurants or eating Japanese food. Like that's not how you, how you do it. That's... doesn't make you Japanese." And I felt like ashamed or sad by that because I thought it did and I was like, "That's all I have." And, I also felt very hurt by that because I felt like it was shutting out or denying what I understood as a real part of my Japanese-ness. And now I see, well, of course it does. Like, ho-- Like that's a very, like one of the most important ways that we transfer this knowledge and experience, and embody it like literally and share it with my family. Like when my father would bring my son to the mochi poundings 00:54:00at the, at the JASC. You know, tomorrow I'm actually going to be picking up bento boxes, which I'm so happy are available and I got it for the whole family, so there's that, that conflict too. And you know, oh we, maybe next time we could talk about like you know the, the differences in growing up you know with this food, and then now you see it like mass-marketed as, as, as sushi burritos. But yeah, so lots of conflict. Lots of always feeling like belonging, but then maybe shame or being incriminated by association and then wanting that distance. And then you know, the resentment for that distant-- distance, which I feel like a lot of Japanese Americans in Chicago have felt from each other.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you ever feel that your being mixed race ever played 00:55:00into that in terms of your belonging-ness within the Japanese American community?

Fred Sasaki: Yes. I mean in all communities. In the, the Japanese community, you know, with my Polish family, with all the white folks I went to school with. And strangely or not so strange, I'm sure it's something that's very common. And actually, sorry to address you but I, I know that's something that you, you under-- feel too, is like, I felt kinship with Latinx people. My wife is Cuban and we met each other. And it's funny, we were often mistaken for brother and sister. You know she's... Parents fully Cuban from Cuba, right? And, when I met her family, I was shocked by the, how instantaneous our famil-- like famili-- 00:56:00the, the family became. Like, I was like embraced immediately and I was like, I couldn't believe it. I was, I had found community that I had never had before, right? And it's no, through no fault of my, my family or, it just, it didn't exist here right? And then and for-- because it really wasn't allowed. So, always feeling like an outsider, then finding inclusion in you know, maybe surprising places.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you feel that your relationship with the Japanese American community has changed over the course of your life?

Fred Sasaki: So dramatically, profoundly and for the better. And I think it's something particular to the, this political moment and the sort of access to 00:57:00information, and what I, what I hope is a sort of sea change for the, the country and all people. I think... I think, that there feels to be like an awakening amongst Japanese-Americans at large, and a, a drive or striving toward understanding or solidarity. I think, I feel like people are also tired of being alone and right, not seeing other people like us. You know like right, all, all hapas, we could spot each other a mile away, right? Or like, when, when I, when I went back to L.A. and I felt this homecoming, right? I was like, "Oh my God, everybody's so beautiful! They look just like..." And it didn't matter. Like 00:58:00normally in Chicago you'd be like, "Oh, like, you're mixed?" Like, you know? But there it was like, "Why bother asking? It doesn't matter." Everybody is like all, all mixed up. But yeah. No, so I felt such a radical change. And again, for me personally, this has occurred through the, through the arts. And also I think like artists and our art communities are demanding justice and reconciliation and openness and ending silence around all of this. So it's like, such fertile ground and I like, I'm just so happy to lean into it and like, and to like know my lane, you know? And this is where I can fill things out, where I can share experience and explore, and then finding where that connects with other cultures 00:59:00and communities. So yeah. This is, I'm just, it's such a nice time for me personally with regard to being Japanese American. And what I found too, which I thought was so interesting, your, you know, also because of the way that we're working now, being put in con-conversation with Japanese Americans in, in other ends of the world or country, who are doing these projects that you can just easily plug into. Like I interviewed with a, a Japanese American sculptor in Las Vegas who was like researching... Who was doing very similar kind of oral histories and stories. I think working toward an exhibition of work representing the Japanese American experience. And I was so amazed that apparently a lot of people are spontaneously identifying as hapa, and there's this like growing community of hapa people. And how it's like, it's expanding also to include 01:00:00people who aren't necessarily of specifically Japanese American descent, but all mixed people. And he's finding even non-Asians sometimes identifying in this way. And I just find it so fascinating that so many of us are having, spontaneously having this like awakening to identity. Which I think you know, people, I think, are very frustrated by identity politics but like, I love it. Like, I think it's so great. Like you know, the magazine I work for, we just published a cyborg this month. I, I don't, I shouldn't even say it like that, but someone who identifies as a cyborg and I'm like, "Fantastic. Like, how are all these different ways that we can imagine our humanity? Like, great." I was like, "Sign me up." So yeah.

Emma Saito Lincoln: I was wondering as you were talking about food and, and Japanese culture in different ways that it's transmitted from one generation to another. Are there other aspects of Japanese culture that you really felt that 01:01:00were absent from your life or that you have wanted or maybe taken steps to reclaim for yourself?

Fred Sasaki: Well, the actual cooking. I, you know my mother, my Polish mother would make chicken teriyaki for us, which was like, a very important favorite meal for me. My father didn't cook so much, so you know I, I guess that was missing in certain ways. That, that sort of, the, the home, Japanese homemaking I guess or cooking, home cooking, which we now do in our home you know, and you know have my oke, and I put the, the kombu and the rice. And on New Year's we 01:02:00make chick-- you know katsu, katsudon, and, and we cook it together as a family. And, and it's, you know oh buy the cookbooks and you know, cut out the articles from Nichi Bei Weekly, which I subscribe to, and I've, I've now subscribed for several years now. One of the greatest subscriptions I have ever made in my life because I've learned so much and it's such a wonderful publication, but I cut out the recipes and we try it. My son the other day who's 16 about to be 17 next month, he started cooking. He like, he made some like miso salmon like on his own. I was so proud. I was like, "Yes." I was like, "You're digging into your, your legacy, your, your history." And so, but it's, I also feel like a little bit I feel like, "Oh, I'm pretending or, you know this isn't authentic." I'm like, "I'm taking this and you know, I don't really... This isn't real." You 01:03:00know? Which is crazy, right, because it is and we're making it real. So that's something that, that's, that's-- you know also, I, I would say maybe I guess a, a, a greater cultural understanding. I didn't learn anything about like incarceration at school. You know, it's not something we ever spoke about in any of my education. I didn't, you know I don't feel like I was really exposed to Japanese artists or you know just even have an understanding, maybe... Yeah, 01:04:00just a wider cultural understanding, I guess. You know, I would never fault my folks for that you know or-- You know, that's not what I mean but I, I guess that's something I... You know it's like when I, I went to school in Boston right? And how many people did I meet who, whose family came over on the Mayflower. Oh my God, thank you for telling me. So I guess something I felt like I was missed was a Mayflower story, which you know, we can't have. That doesn't exist. Maybe I'm making up answers for you at this point but...

Emma Saito Lincoln: No, this is all wonderful. We are coming up on, on 11:30, so I think maybe we can start wrapping up.

Fred Sasaki: Sure.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And I was hoping you would speak a little bit about what motivated you to participate in this oral history project.

Fred Sasaki: Oh, I just think it's so important, you know? I lo-- You know, aside from loving the Japanese American Service Committee and wanting to support this work. And to recognize its just immense importance to record these stories, and you know seeing the, the everlasting value of them. You know visiting you know, the, the Holocaust Museum, I think in Elmhurst where they recently presented all the oral histories of survivors that they captured there. And you know for, you know seeing how that can live on for people. You know and seeing the ones that, that have been created here too, how important it is and how fast we're losing our people and, and these stories. But also as a, as an exploration 01:06:00and to, to build understanding, because like I don't, I don't know how this is all... I want to better understand how this is impacting me, and how the aspects of my life have been dramatically influenced by incarceration or this experience. Like it was through this call that I first thought maybe I... I don't know, like 'cause-- So I work with, right, with prison, with prison populations or you know, do this abolitionist work, which I sort of tripped into through poetry. But it's, I've now been you know, working, and specifically with the Prison Neighborhood Arts Project, Arts Education project who work out of Stateville. I've now been doing this work for 10 years and I'm wondering how, how does this connect with my family's incarceration experience? Like you know? 01:07:00And I, and I think that there's a lot of value in connecting those points, and understanding maybe this larger idea about you know, putting people in cages right? Like, plus, I, I think it's, I want to be part of building our culture. And want to, yeah, be here for the culture and to help to fill it out and encourage other people to do so. Yeah.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And then I have a pair of questions for you. One is looking, looking back, is there a question that you either always wanted to ask, or maybe now you wish you could ask of your father or your grandmother or your 01:08:00grandfather about their lives?

Fred Sasaki: You know, now I think because of what we are dealing with in this country and through you know my workplace and like many of our workplaces. Like the sort of racial reckonings that were happening and our, our confrontation with, with racism. I would love to know what they think about all this whiteness, you know? Like, I would love to, to have a better understanding of how they experienced that, like honestly. Like if they could've... 'Cause I know in the past they did not speak honestly with me about it, and for good reason. I 01:09:00really would've... I would really love to know that. That would, that would be very helpful in clarifying, I'm not really sure in what way. I think it would help you feel, help me feel less crazy. (laughs) You know, my grandmother who was incarcerated, certain members of my family, the white members of the family, liked to say that she reported never having felt prejudiced against in her life. She was never the victim of racism in her entire life, and yet she had, she was robbed and imprisoned for being alive. And I, I wish we could go back in time 01:10:00and be like, "Hold on a second, that's, that's not true." Yeah.

Emma Saito Lincoln: And as a counterpoint to that, is there a message that you would like to send to your children?

Fred Sasaki: Yeah, you know and I, I feel like so dedicated to living that message on a daily basis. And it's sort of ridiculous how much we talk about it, maybe every meal, every day. It's always, right? I mean, how can you not? Especially... But the way I see my children, and actually it was the, the birth of my children that brought me back to the, the, to the JASC through my father bringing my son to the mochi poundings. Through the Winter Delights. Through judo through the facility, but also my desire to... For them to learn about 01:11:00their heritage and to feel okay claiming it and owning that. But most importantly, I see my duty as not passing my shame onto them. And to all of like the hangups or holdups or racism or prejudice or biases that live within me. That, to confront them and to eradicate them so they don't harbor them or enact them upon the world. You know, I'll tell you a funny story about my son that is not about Japanese American experience, but it's about this mixed-race identity experience. So we were talking about something and he said something that made me say to him, I was like, "Hey." I was like, "You know you're Hispanic, right?" 01:12:00Which is funny. Like people ask me, am I Hispanic? And I'll be like, "Sort of." And they're just, "What are you talking about? Like what do you mean?" I was like, "Well, people think that I am. My wife is, my children are but I know that I'm not." Like I don't, it's a dumb joke but my son is and he got very serious. And he, he was probably about 13 maybe, 14? He was younger. And he goes, "Hmm." He's like, "You know, I don't feel entitled to identify as Hispanic. I don't, I don't feel like it's right for me to say that I am." And I'm like, "What are you talking about, but you are. Like you are." And it came to light that he felt he 01:13:00couldn't call himself Hispanic because he was privileged and he's comfortable and he doesn't suffer. And right? He, he's like, he doesn't feel like his Hispanic-ness imperils his life. And I understand, he's so kind and it comes out of, out of such generosity of him. But I thought how sad that our understanding of what it means to be Hispanic is so limited and dictated by violence. And of course I said, "There are many ways to be Hispanic like and you are." But I understand like where he is coming from and that's his decision. But I, I really want my children to be able to say, "Yeah, I'm Japanese American. I'm all these other things too." Because even like I, I know I'm Asian American or I can identify this way. Like that's not like my overarching or umbrella identity, but 01:14:00I want them to, to be able to raise their hand, right? When someone asks them.

Emma Saito Lincoln: That's a beautiful note to end on, I think. But you brought with you, one more thing that I thought you'd like to, to share, so I'll hand that to you.

Fred Sasaki: Thank you. Oh there's, one other thing I want to say too, is that the, the trauma of incarceration showed up in my father's death in a very interesting way. And it was tied to our ongoing conversation or activism around it. So when he died, it was very important for me to acknowledge that he was imprisoned right, at Heart Mountain. How to do so? At that time, there was a lot of debate about the language that we used. Do you call them concentration camps? And I was, I didn't know 'cause up until that point, that's not how we talked about it and it didn't feel right. And I was asking around for advice and of 01:15:00course it came up, well, this isn't the place. Your father's obituary is not the place to take a, be an activist 'cause it was controversial. I think I did call them American concentration camps ultimately. 'Cause that seemed to, 'cause I, I was basing this off a recommendation off of some summit between a Japanese American organization and a, I think a Jewish organization, which I was so happy to, to learn about. But I thought it was, it was so interesting that the, the wrench or trauma or problem of incarceration, the way it manifested and became very difficult even, even in death. Yeah... I'm trying to think what there was... Anyways, so this is a piece I'm so happy to share with you. This is a, I 01:16:00don't know if it's watercolor? It is on, on some kind of canvas, but a portrait of Heart Mountain that was created at, in Heart Mountain. I don't know the artist's name or how they knew my family, but it's been in my family since the war. Lived in my father's so-called Japanese room. He devoted a room in his home to all things Japanese and this hung prominently. And I'm so proud and happy to have it, and we'll take good care to make sure that this is placed permanently somewhere appropriate but for now, this lives with us. The backside's interesting too. This was framed by John P. Somogyi. Well anyways, I think a 01:17:00Japanese American framer. So yeah.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you for bringing that to share.

Fred Sasaki: You're welcome.

Emma Saito Lincoln: I was wondering, when you look at that painting, what kinds of feelings does it bring up for you?

Fred Sasaki: Wonder but like outside-ness, you know? Like, because I very feel like being on the outside looking at, at Heart Mountain at that experience. So there's like a tender distance, I would say.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you. I think we'll, we'll end there.

Fred Sasaki: Great.

Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you very much for joining us today.