Takeshita, Ben (6/15/2018)

Anna Takada: This is an interview with Ben Takeshita as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on June 14th at about 10:15AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Ben Takeshita is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah. My name is Ben Takeshita.

Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born?

Ben Takeshita: I was born in Alameda, California in 1930 and, but moved to San Mateo in 1934, so I've been raised through high school in San Mateo, California, 00:01:00which is south of San Francisco.

Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe where they were from and what brought them to the U.S.?

Ben Takeshita: Okay, my parents were from Fukuoka-ken in Kyushu, Japan, which is at the southern island of, of Japan. My father came earlier probably in the late 1800s or maybe early 1900s. And then my mother came about 1910 or '12 or somewhere in there. And they were residing in the San Leandro area, which is in the East Bay of San Francisco Bay Area. And my father was working on the farm, and, and I guess my mother was also just helping out in the farm business that they were in. Then I'm not sure whether my mother came as a result of getting 00:02:00married or what, but soon in about 1917 or something, they, they got together and got married. So, that's the family history as far as the beginning of their residence in the United States is concerned.

Anna Takada: Do you know why they decided to come to the U.S. or what drove them to?

Ben Takeshita: Well I, most of the people that came from Japan, they were from the farm countries like Southern Kyushu and so on. And it was, they were in some kind of a depression and so on. And also, there were a lot of rumors and talk about coming to the United States and making money and then returning to Japan and many people who did that. My grandfather who was also here earlier in the 00:03:00San Leandro Area, East Bay Area, he was farming. But he started a, a landscape-gardening business in San Mateo, and then asked my father to take over his, that business in San Mateo so he could return to Japan and that's what, because he wanted to and so he returned. And there were a lot of people that were thinking of coming to the United States, make the money and then go back to Japan and that was it. Except that the World War II is, that interrupted a lot of tho-those kinds of plans that they had originally. And they immigrated officially and got Green Cards and so on. They weren't illegally here or whatever, so they were here legitimately with Green Card holding. But you may know in 1924, they had the Alien Land Law, which forbid Japanese from becoming citizens of the United States nor owning property. So, they were struck twice in 00:04:00terms of not being able to be citizens and own property. So they had to rely on their children who were American citizens born in the United States, to put their properties that they may have purchased in their names to be able to own land in the United States.

Anna Takada: And what kind of farm was it that your family had?

Ben Takeshita: Mostly vegetable farming. I'm not sure what they had, were growing because I wasn't involved in it at that time. Certainly I was born in Alameda, but when I was four years old, they moved to San Mateo, which was not a farming community at that time. So, I don't know what they were growing or whatever. They didn't talk too much about it nor do I remember even if they did.

Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about what San Mateo was like as you were growing up there?

Ben Takeshita: San Mateo was a regular suburb community. A lot of people residing there. I don't know what most of their jobs were. But many of the Japanese Americans, the people were the Issei, which, which is the first-generation Japanese born in Japan but coming, immigrating to the United States. Most of them were landscape gardeners. They were, they were known as Japanese gardeners and they took pride in being Japanese gardeners. The Caucasians who hired them often said, "Oh, I have a Japanese gardener." It was, it was a good reputation of, of having good jobs as gardeners in, in the cemetery area. There were a lot of white people and also a racial mixture and so 00:06:00on. In, in our schools, there were different races represented. So, it wasn't anything where there was a majority. Well, the majority were Caucasians but other than that, there were a lot of mixtures of different races.

Anna Takada: And what kind of, were you involved in any kind of activities or, or what was life like as a, as a kid growing up there?

Ben Takeshita: In the, in the grammar schools before the war, most of us Japanese Americans just kind of stuck together. We played handball at the high school-- I mean at grammar school. Handball. And then later on, before the war started in the 1930, thirty two-- I mean, '39 to '48 period, there were some Japanese coming back from Japan, being, being educated there. And they would 00:07:00teach us how to play different kinds of Japanese games like they called it jintori or the, doing you know, a treasure picking and so on. We would make boxes, big boxes on the ground with the sticks, and then put rocks in it as the treasure. And we would try to capture that box I mean that so-called treasure and then go back to your own safe. But, but if you got touched then you were caught, so you had to try to run away from them and go back to your... So that kind of Japanese game. But we pretty much stuck together, played handball together, so... And this I felt was not a good thing. Later on, I realized that we were sticking too much together, and so after war I felt that we have to assimilate. And so that, that was the start of my feeling that we shouldn't 00:08:00stick together but mix with the other races and other communities.

Anna Takada: And the, so the, these friends that you're describing, were they Kibei, they were born in the US?

Ben Takeshita: No, I didn't really... Some of them, as I said, were girls that were educated in Japan, and so they were coming into, to grammar schools to learn English. But other than that, I didn't really know that... Except that my brothers were Kibeis because they went to Japan and studied Japanese for about five years, but other than that, I didn't really know too many Kibeis. I was primarily sticking with the Nisei, which is the second generation or the first-born in the United States. So, and got to know the difference in that the 00:09:00Chinese say that the first-born were called Isseis. And then, whereas the first-born in the United States in Japanese circles is called Nisei. Which is the second generation that the people that were our parents who were born in Japan were the Isseis were the first generation in the United States. So there was a difference even between the racial groups as to how they named their generations.

Anna Takada: And, so growing up in your family, did you speak Japanese at all or what were the languages?

Ben Takeshita: Well, we spoke to our parents in Japanese because they didn't speak English too well. But our Japanese was just mixed and trying to communicate with them but not fluent Japanese. It was more learning what they taught us and conversing with them. Not talking politics or anything serious 00:10:00because we were kids at the time, yeah.

Anna Takada: And so with your peers and maybe your siblings, it was mostly English then?

Ben Takeshita: Oh yes, mostly English. Definitely.

Anna Takada: And, can you tell me about your siblings? How many siblings do you have?

Ben Takeshita: Okay. I had two older brothers, two older sisters and myself, and then two younger brothers and one younger sister. So, eventually by 1939, 1940, we had about eight kids in the family and my parents making it 10 altogether. We did have one brother between the first-born brother and the second-born brother. We had another brother in between, but he passed away at infancy for some kind of ailment. So I don't even know who, who he was or how he was or whatever.

Anna Takada: Can you tell me the names of your siblings and then your parents as well?

Ben Takeshita: Well, my oldest brother is Satoshi. But during the war periods when he came back from Japan after spending five years learning Japanese. When he came back, you know, Spencer Tracy, the movies was very popular in those days. So my brother, oldest brother took on his name. So in America he's been known as Spencer all the time. My second-oldest brother, he was named Yuzuru. But during the high school days until today, a lot of the teachers couldn't pronounce Yuzuru, so she gave him a name called John. And so that stuck and he 00:12:00became well-educated to where he graduated from UCLA and Parks, I mean, Park College in Kansas City, Missouri. And eventually he ended up in Ann Arbor, Michigan and became a professor of sociology and retired from Ann Arbor, Michigan for all these many years. And then he passed away about three, four years ago. And then my older sister, she was born in, I think, it was in Alameda or somewhere in that East Bay Area. Then she, and then there was another sister called Kiyoko who's my older sister who is Sherry's mother. She passed away several years ago. Now I have my younger sister, then next older sister Kiyoko 00:13:00and she's called Carol and she is still living in, in San Mateo. Then myself was right in there. Then I had a younger brother named Kazuaki, Roy, they named him. And he took that name from Roy Rogers, the cowboy. But he passed away as well several, this year, early this year and we still have to have a funeral for him. And then, no-- I'm sorry then that's not the right one. He passed away several years ago here. And then I have my younger sister, Michiko, and she still lives in Foster City in San Mateo County. And then my youngest brother, Bobby, named Yoshio, and he was the one that just passed away early this year. We still have 00:14:00to have funeral services for him in August. That makes up our family of eight kids and my parents, which that made 10 altogether that went into camp during World War II.

Anna Takada: And what were your parents' names?

Ben Takeshita: They were what?

Anna Takada: Your parents' names?

Ben Takeshita: My...

Anna Takada: Your parents' names.

Ben Takeshita: Oh, I'm sorry. The parents' name. Manzo was my father's name and then my mother's name was Hatsumi.

Anna Takada: And so did you have a, a Japanese name then or do you have a Japanese name?

Ben Takeshita: No, my name is Ben, which is part of... My mother wanted me to study, so she named me Ben from the benkyou. Benkyou means to study hard, and she wanted me to study hard so named me Ben. So my mother named a lot of our kids based on different reasons. For example, Yuzuru means to yield. And what 00:15:00happened was that, my oldest brother and then the one that passed away and then Yuzuru. So my mother thought that, wow, we had three, three boys, so you want to yield to get females in the family. So then, Sherry's mother was born and that was, it worked out for the family and then Kiyoko came after that, so it yielded two females in the family. Then I came, and then my younger brother Kazuaki came, Roy, and then so on. And then my youngest sister and youngest brother, yeah.

Anna Takada: And how would you describe, with so many kids in the family how would you describe, and the two older ones gone... or well, what year did they 00:16:00go to Japan?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah. In 1934, after we moved to San Mateo where my father took over my grandfather's landscape business, it's amazing that you know, during the depression years of 1930 and so on, my parents, everything, they saved enough money. So, in 1934, the same year that we moved to San Mateo, my, my mother took two, my older two brothers, older brothers, two older sisters, and myself and my younger brother to Japan to stay with my grandfather in Southern Japan in Fukuoka. So that we could have the two brothers stay in Japan and learn the Japanese language. Because in those days, job discrimination especially amongst, for the Japanese was very strong, and so they couldn't get good jobs. So the 00:17:00understanding and feeling of many Japanese families were to send their sons and daughters to Japan to get the Japanese language education, so that when they come back, maybe they can get a good job with a Japanese firm. Because like in California, in San Francisco and Los Angeles, everywhere, Japanese firms were beginning to show up and so on. So they thought that they might be able to get a better job if they learn the Japanese language. So that's why we went to Japan in 1934. And well, my oldest sister was also supposed to be left behind to go to, to learn Japanese, but she protested so much that my mother felt sorry for her. And so the rest of us came home to San Mateo again and left my two older brothers in Japan. Where they stayed in Japan until 1939 when my parents felt that there was something going on between Japan and the United States that may 00:18:00lead to war. So she had them come back, had the, had the two brothers come back to San Mateo to start our life again back in the United States.

Anna Takada: And so how long were y- were you and your sister in Japan since you didn't end up staying?

Ben Takeshita: Six month-- We were there only for about six months. I was four years old at the time but I still remember some things that we were doing. For example, I remember this big brick wall that was really way above my head. Then in the Korean War when I went back as an adult to visit my family home and so on, my grandfather's home and so on. I asked him, "Where is that big, tall wall?" And I was overhanging it. So, my memory of this wall was that it was a tall, big, tall wall but because as a child, but then as an adult it was you 00:19:00know, way below my level. So that kind of thing. Well I asked for what happened to that big river they had that we have to you know go over? And he said, "Oh it's that little stream right there." But from my memory, I thought it was a very wide river, but it turned out to be just a little stream that we could just walk across almost. So that was the kind of memories that I remember, remember having when I was four years old in Japan.

Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so your brothers, your two older brothers came back in 1939. And you said that was in part because your mom had, she was concerned about the relationship between the US and Japan. Do you remember what that was 00:20:00like for them coming back?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah. I might say that while they were in Japan, Japan was at war with China. And so the Japanese government wanted to have as many young people as possible to join the Japanese Army. And, my brothers refused very strongly saying that they're American citizens and so therefore will not join the Japanese Army. And eventually the Japanese government gave up and said, "Okay, we recognize you're an American citizen, so we won't have you join the Japanese Army." And, but in their early lives, in their early teen, late teens, they were you know fighting for their, their rights as American citizens in Japan. So, then they came back in 1939 and two years later the war started. And here our own government did not recognize that American citizenship that the brothers had 00:21:00fought so hard in Japan. And there are instances where, in fact, I know one family whose grandfather succumbed to that pressure and did join the Japanese Army. But fortunate for him, it was towards the end of the war so he didn't have to go battle. He did eventually come back to the United States, but there were people that were pressured to join the Japanese Army. And, and, but they all fought that and resisted that by saying they were American citizens. So there, there's that strong background that they had during their stay in Japan.

Anna Takada: And so you're mentioning some of, some of the things that happened during the war. Can you tell me about any memories you might have of Pearl 00:22:00Harbor and kind of the, the start of the war between the US and Japan?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, I remember it was a Sunday and my two brothers had gone on across the way to Berkeley to watch a basketball game. And on the way home from the basketball game, they heard out over the radio that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor. So when they came home, they told us about it that, "Pearl Harbor was bombed." I didn't even know where Pearl Harbor was. And, and so they were beginning to worry from then as to what was going to happen to us. Because we were Japanese and, and there was discrimination already amongst the, the populace about being discriminated against. So we were wondering what was going to happen to us. And I remember that kind of worry that we all felt at that time 00:23:00when we heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Anna Takada: You mentioned the existing discrimination against Japanese Americans in the U.S. As a kid, did you experience any kind of discrimination for your race?

Ben Takeshita: Fortunately, I don't remember any kind of discrimination amongst us. We were a mixed in th grammar school I was going to. There were a lot of Germans and Italians, Portuguese and Chinese and so on. But we never felt any form of discrimination as far as I could remember during that period.

Anna Takada: Do you remember your own reactions to hearing that news?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, it was more, yeah, what's going to happen to us? That kind of thing. Because my parents and brothers were worried and they could feel that it was, you know it was not good. You know so, it was a matter of what's going 00:24:00to happen, you know, and not knowing that, that was a, an apprehension, you know?

Anna Takada: So in the, the immediate aftermath of the attack of Pearl Harbor, did anything change?

Ben Takeshita: Oh yeah, almost right away. We had the, the, what they call that, turn off the lights you know, and we, we couldn't keep the lights on after curfew time and so on, and so they started that. And pretty soon we started getting notices that we had to turn in our cameras and anything that were Japanese documents and so on. So my, my parents were beginning to get these things ready, not knowing what was going to be happening. You know, so there was 00:25:00that kind of activity that I remember slightly.

Anna Takada: And then how about in, in the following months and...

Ben Takeshita: Well, the following months, actually, when the Executive Order 9066 was passed by President Roosevelt on February the 19th. And after that, then within the month they were on all the telephone poles in San Mateo, and I'm sure all over in Oregon and Washington as well, there were these bulletins that were posted saying that, "All people with Japanese ancestry will have to move out of the West Coast to places away from the West Coast." So that caused a lot of commotion. But then you know, normally our family was that we would at least 00:26:00gather at dinnertime and we would all sit around, have our dinner. And at the same time talk about what happened during the day and what was going to happen and so on. So it was a family kind of discussion, and we were very involved in it and so on. But never in my memory do I remember any talk about what's going to be happening to us based on that executive order. So I have a feeling that my parents made sure that they didn't discuss that at the family table, to worry us kids about what was going to happen. So I, I give them a lot of credit for that part, I think. Afterwards though, I realized that, yeah, I don't remember. I have a lot of good memories, but don't remember any discussions about what was going to be happening to us and, and worrying about the different things that 00:27:00might be happening.

Anna Takada: And at this time, how, how old is your oldest brother, Satoshi?

Ben Takeshita: He was, I'm not quite sure. I thought he was 22, but he's maybe about 20 or something like that, my oldest brother. Yeah.

Anna Takada: Then your youngest sibling, Bobby was...

Ben Takeshita: Well, he was oh, maybe two or three. I'm not sure you know, what he was, but he was just born so he was, as the picture might show, very, very young. Maybe two at most. Yeah, two or three, somewhere in there.

Anna Takada: Mhmm. Did you have friends at the time or, or peers that were also you know, dealing with the news of the evacuation and the executive order? Did 00:28:00you, did you talk about it in this--

Ben Takeshita: Well, I had you know, other Nisei classmates, but we weren't living close, nearby enough to go to the schools but, to the grammar school. But as far as a discussion with them and so on, I don't recall any of that happening or any conversation. We were going to Japanese language school after our grade and grammar schools and we would talk there, but even that was closed down to where we couldn't go anymore. So we couldn't communicate or talk to the other fellow Japanese because the school was shut down, you know?

Anna Takada: Was that following the signing of the executive order or was that before?

Ben Takeshita: I, I don't, I'm not quite sure when that took place, but I do know that it was eventually closed down. So it's probably in line with the 00:29:00turning in your cameras and short-wave radio and so on, even flashlights. I was on in the Boy Scouts Troop 32. We had to turn in our flashlights and our handbooks because they had Morse code in there and, and we dissolved, and so on. I don't have very good feelings about Boy Scouts since then, you know, although they were active in camp and so on.

Anna Takada: Is that because the orders were coming from the troop, or--

Ben Takeshita: Well, I guess you know, because of the fact that the Executive Order 9066 was going to evacuate us, I guess they felt that they, they should dissolve us as well. And, and you know, there were younger people who were in the Army and Navy and so on, they were discharged right off when that war 00:30:00started and especially after Executive Order 9066, so... These are all part of the atmosphere that began to take place after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Anna Takada: And can you, so can you tell me about what happened to your family you know, with the evacuation orders sent out?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, I don't recall the preparation and so on, or, except that on the day that we had to leave our home to move, to walk to our meeting place that was designated to catch our buses to go to what they call the assembly center, which was located in Tanforan in San Bruno, which was about 20, 30 miles south of San Francisco. And, and we were to go there. So the day came and my parents told us to wear as many sweaters and jackets as possible, but still you 00:31:00know, it was 10 of us in the family. We left a lot of clothing in the closets and we just we could only take what we could carry. So that's what we did. And I remember my mother didn't want to leave the precious sugar, so she would make brittles out of them. She would cook the sugar and we didn't have peanuts because that's expensive. But she made little brittles or candy-like things because we didn't know what our food situation was going to be. And my mother felt that by having these brittles, sugar brittles, if we got hungry, we could at least nibble on them to get a little energy. So I remember she making quite a bit of the, the brittles that we took. And those of us who were old enough to carry things, we were given... My mother made bags of things so that we can 00:32:00carry. They included sheets and pillow cases and, and bedding as well as eating utensils, like dishes and cups made of enamel so that we could then take it. And we were told to take these things with us, and you know, but only those things we could carry. So we left a lot of things in the house. My father, had a, his pickup truck was gardening and he left everything there. He did, we did pool... My aunt and uncle, they were American citizens, so they had purchased a home in San Mateo. So in the backyard of that, we built a shed and we put my father's gardening tools and my uncle's gardening tools and everything inside there locked it, and hoping for safekeeping. And we left that. And then we walked to 00:33:00this meeting place to board our buses to go to the Tanforan Assembly Center. I remember while we were walking with all these bags and so on to this meeting place that some of my school mates whose homes we, we had passed, I remember seeing them peeking from their curtains as we walked by. And I remember the feeling of you know, why aren't they coming out to at least wish us well because we were schoolmates. And it was years, maybe years and years later that I realized that they were Germans or Italians and they weren't sure of what was going to be happening to them after our evacuation. And, and therefore they didn't want to be identified as being friendly to the so-called enemy aliens that we were called at that time. So I figured that's why they didn't come out, 00:34:00it is. So I, I forgave them many years later after I realized what the circumstances were. But I still have that feeling of not knowing and why they didn't come out. And that feeling, hurt feeling still exists in my memory.

Anna Takada: And so from, from your home in San Mateo, you, you took a train to... You went to a meeting place, took a train to Tanforan.

Ben Takeshita: No, it wasn't a train, it was a bus.

Anna Takada: Oh, it was a bus.

Ben Takeshita: Yeah. And then were... When we got to the meeting place to catch our buses, there were a lot of Caucasians there to help, you know, assigning us to our buses and giving us refreshments and so on. So we were very grateful for 00:35:00their helping us. And then many, many years later, probably after the war, we learned that they were Quakers that stuck their neck out to help us. And in those days, if you helped so-called enemy aliens, they were I'm sure given bad names and probably ostracized by many of the public during that period. So we, I try to mention this whenever I make a presentation to show our Japanese American community appreciation for their sticking their necks out in a time, trying time for many of us during that period. And then also the teachers that certainly volunteered to train us on when the school started in America's concentration camps, and there were 10 of them. They were in the Midwest and in California 00:36:00there were two, one in northern California about 30, 40 miles from Klamath Falls, Oregon and the one east of Los Angeles in the mountains called Manzanar. There were two in California and one in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Arkansas, Bismarck, and so on. There were 10 America's concentration camps located in those areas where 120,000 of us were sent.

Anna Takada: And, but before going to one of the camps, you went to this...

Ben Takeshita: Assembly center, they called.

Anna Takada: Right, or Temporary Detention Center.

Ben Takeshita: Yeah.

Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit about your experiences in arriving to Tanforan and maybe first impressions?

Ben Takeshita: Yes. It took about an hour, I would think from, I don't recall 00:37:00that ride, but it was certainly leaving my hometown of San Mateo and then going to this place that I didn't, we didn't know where it was. And it turned out to be the racetrack in San Bruno. And we were assigned first to the grandstand where they told us what was going to happen to us while we stayed in this center. And also we were assigned our living quarters. And because our family was a family of 10, we were assigned the barracks that were temporarily built, hurriedly built in the middle of the race, racetracks. My cousins, they were a family of four. So unfortunately they were given assignments at the horse stables, which is located right where the BART station, the Bay Area Rapid Transit station in San Bruno is currently located. Right where they are located 00:38:00is where the horse stables were. And they were there. And I remember during the summer months going to visit them and oh, the, the horse stables, they whitewashed the walls to make it look nice, but certainly the flooring had a lot of holes in them, so you have to make sure you didn't drop anything on, on the floor. And also the stench of the horse manure, they couldn't get rid of that. And so you wondered how during the summer months of 1942, when we were put into these confined quarters, how they were able to stand that kind of stench. That was the bad part, especially going from a nice home to, to these quarters. We were fortunate in getting into the barracks. So a barrack consisted of two 00:39:00smaller rooms on the ends and then about three larger rooms in the middle. But they were, the walls were made out of sheet-- I mean plywood, so thin plywood. There were no ceilings. So when we got there, we got two of those rooms. There was no stove. There was only one light, no running water. So there was the one light. Then we had to put extension cords to extend our lighting to some other areas that we wanted to stay in. And there was certainly no privacy. Then their strategic location, they had what they call latrines for the toilet information. And then they had a shower room, and then they had a laundry room. And then the mess hall where we would go and eat was strategically located in different parts. And when we arrived to our barracks and we were given canvas bags, and we would go to a certain place to get hay and stuff the canvas bag with hay and 00:40:00take it back to our barracks, and that was going to be our mattress for the duration of the stay in these assembly centers. What we found out many years later, in fact in recent years, is that those canvas bags that they issued to us were actually body bags that at one time would be carrying dead bodies. And so the government did quite a bit of things that were just trying to make it worse for, for us living. The situation was such that the, the latrines where they had the toilets had no partitions, so there was no privacy there. The shower were all open so that there were no partitions there. So, the men and boys got used to that a little better. Though I remember my two sisters and many of the-- 00:41:00later found out, many of the women had a lot of problems with a lack of privacy, openness and so on. So they would try to find cardboard boxes to split at least provide some form of privacy in those situations. And I think as a result of that, going abruptly into that kind of situation, the lack of privacy, certainly in the barracks, because there were no ceilings, you can hear voices on both sides of the of, barracks. So we have to make sure we talk in whispers because otherwise you would be heard in the other. And then even at nighttime and so on, we would have to go, if we have to, to take care of our business, we have to go outside to the latrines to take care of our situation. So it was a matter of 00:42:00being thrown into this kind of a situation. The federal government tried to explain to the public that they were doing this as a form of protection for us. Well, but the protection that they talked about when we got into Tanforan was that the barbed wire fences with the, on the top, the barbed wires were facing inwards to keep people in, not outwards, to keep people from coming in. And then guard towers that were strategically located throughout the center would have guards with rifles, some machine guns, facing inwards to keep us in and not outwards to keep people from coming in to attack us or whatever. And the search lights at nighttime were face, facing inwards to show, to make sure that people weren't doing anything wrong at nighttime compared to having it shown outwards 00:43:00to keep the outside from coming in and so on. So, we've learned very quickly that this was not our, for our protection, it was to keep us in and so on. And so, and you know at that time, well, the Japanese American Citizens League, which was a civil rights organization, was formed in 1929. They were representing the Japanese American community at that time, they, their director, executive director, Mike Masaoka. He was told by the government to go quietly, do not oppose it, and so on. So many of us went quietly into these camps without any demonstration or anything. And, the Japanese Americans on the whole were citizens who obeyed and listened to authority and not protest. Anyway, it wasn't 00:44:00that kind of a racial group as far as we were concerned. So probably because of the racial discrimination as it was, we didn't, we just wanted to do what was told, and, and that was the atmosphere. So, even to this day, you know, there are problems because of those kinds of decisions. Although personally, I feel that it did prevent us from a lot of people from getting killed because had we protested, I think there would've been a lot of riots and so on. So in a way, it was a good decision, but at the same time, it doesn't sound right to have gone quietly. The young people today say, "Why didn't you protest?" But well, in those days, the atmosphere is different. And so we did what we had to do. Yeah.

Anna Takada: Thank you for, for sharing about some of those conditions. So was 00:45:00that... The, the conditions you described, do you remember as, let's see, you must have been almost a teenager.

Ben Takeshita: I was 11.

Anna Takada: Yeah, 11 years old. Do you remember your, your reactions to that or to the situation?

Ben Takeshita: Well, we, we found out very... For us, we were you know, young, playful, and so on. We found you know, friends, new friends and so on. And we would go eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner with our friends and not with our parents and so on. And my sisters would do the same, so that this was also a breakout of the family because my mother then, she wasn't that sociable. So she 00:46:00would get the food at the mess hall, go back to her barrack and eat the food by herself. My father was working at the mess hall, tried to earn some money, $16 a month to buy toothpaste and different things for the family and so on. So he was working all the time. And so all we did, my brothers would go on their own and so on, because they were older and so on. So for us kids, we had a good time because there was no school. So we just ate, played, ate, played, ate, go to the barracks and go to sleep for the next day and so on. And so we got used to this life of pleasure for us. And, and a lot of people would think, "Well, gee, then it was good for you." But no, it wasn't. But in those days, we knew that we 00:47:00couldn't resist. We didn't have any weapons or anything, you know, and we were told not to resist. So we just... And human beings are such that we learn to get by with whatever circumstance we have, adjust to it and be practical about it, not resist it. In those days, resistance was not part of the game at that time, anyway. So that's the atmosphere that was occurring in these Assembly Centers.

Anna Takada: And so how long was your family in Tanforan?

Ben Takeshita: We were there until September of 1942. When we were at that time, told that we would be moving to a place called Topaz, Utah in, in September. So we had this nice life in Tanforan, but eventually we had to move out of that 00:48:00atmosphere and go to this place called Topaz, Utah. We had to board trains. And when I got on the train, there was one military police MP assigned to each train, and the, the windows were all closed down, shaded. And I was bold enough to go up to the MP and ask him you know, when we go past San Mateo, because I knew the train would be passing San Mateo, I, I asked him if I could open the shade to look at my San Mateo for the last time, possibly, because we didn't have no idea when we would come back, if at, if at all. So I told him, I asked him that, and I remember that, rough "No", so, and I remember him watching me very closely to make sure I don't peek out of that shade or open the shade. So I 00:49:00remember that much. But I fooled him, and I knew that when we would go by San Mateo, they would have these railroad crossings, and whenever the railroad crossing comes down, it goes, ding, ding, ding, ding. You could hear that. So I knew that from San Bruno, you go to Millbrae, Millbrae, Burlingame, Burlingame, and then for about three crossings there would be the San Mateo. So when I counted a number of dings that I would hear in that as we got to the point where I thought might be San Mateo, then I gave my personal farewell. I still remember that feeling that I had of that time because we had no idea what was going to be happening to us and whether we could ever come back to San Mateo. So, there was a feeling that I, I still feel to this day as we passed San Mateo on the trip to this place called Topaz, Utah.

Anna Takada: And can you talk a little bit about Topaz and how, how was it different from Tanforan?

Ben Takeshita: Sure. The, when the train, the next morning the MP told us that we could open the shades. And it turned out to be nothing but desert because we were either in the eastern part of Nevada or into the Salt Lake City, Salt Lake area, where again, there was a desert. So, by the time we got to a place called Delta, which is in the middle of Utah, we boarded trucks. And from there we went about an hour back east, north-- southeast, and ended up in the middle of nowhere, actually, where thousands of years ago, that whole area was covered by water. And so there was a, there was a sandy soil. The sand was so fine that it 00:51:00was like the cement that you would find. And so when we got off the trucks from Delta, when we got off the trucks, you could slip down on the sand and it would just puff up because it was so fine. And we found out later that there was a lot of wind storms. So many times we had to wear handkerchiefs around our mouths and nose to make sure we don't breathe a lot of that stuff, because it was coming through our barrack's windows and so on. The barracks were much better built. They were more sheet rock walls, and eventually they put ceilings on the, on, in each room so that the privacy level, the sound level was certainly cut quite a bit compared to what was happening in Tanforan. So we had a little, little more privacy. And we again, because of our family size, we got two rooms. So we were 00:52:00able to partition off. There was no water, running water yet, but the, in, in Topaz, the, they had 42 blocks. And each block consisted of a row of 12 barracks on one side and on the other side and in the middle, then they would have the latrines and the laundry room, the mess hall, and so on and in between. So, and there were 42 of these. And I remember we were on the one end of it where has 36, 37, 38, 39, until 42. So we were in block 37 of Topaz where we started our life in this desert of area. And it's the first time that I experienced snow because, because in San Mateo in California, we never even dreamed of having snow. So we had that happening to us. Can I have a drink of water?

Anna Takada: Oh yes, please. So when you arrived to Topaz, that was in September '42, did you have to start school when you were in Topaz?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, unfortunately, the school started almost right away. So yeah, my lifetime in... Life in Topaz I primarily went to school all day Monday through Friday, and then doing homework and so on. And on weekends, and sometimes on weekends, the blocks began to form softball teams, and so they would compete against other blocks and so on. So we would watch those kinds of 00:54:00games. Sometimes they had movies where they would show old Japanese movies or American movies, and so we would go and watch them in the recreation barracks and so on. So there was some semblance of, of leisure and so on. But most of my time I remember in Topaz was of, going to school and that was my life. Although in Topaz, we also... I participated in doing, you know they, they have talent shows and so on throughout the mess halls to, for the people to watch and so on. And I remember being part of a, of a presentation where I was the Onizuka Butaicho, who was a famous general in the Russo-Japanese war. And there was a 00:55:00narrator next to me that would narrate what I, I was doing and I would wear a military uniform and I would memorize it in Japanese. I didn't know what I was saying, but they told us how to say it and how to raise the voice and so on. So you know, I still remember some of the things like shōkan wa jibun no gunji shōkan to shite. But you know, that's the way we would have to talk. I don't know what I was saying! (laughs) It's, my memory just remembered that, I think it was, in those days, I had good memory, but I still remember some of the words. I don't know what they meant. But anyway, and then we entertained people. And everyday I made them cry because they would, the people who understood what I was saying would shed tears and so on. So I guess I was doing pretty good. (laughs)

Anna Takada: And that was the start of your acting career, right?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah! (laughs)

Anna Takada: And as far as family dynamics, how did that change in camp, if at all?

Ben Takeshita: Well, it didn't really change until you know in January of 1943, almost one year, not quite one year, but after we were put into our so-called assembly centers in San Bruno, the federal government decided that they wanted to find out how many people would be willing to serve in the US Army. So they put out a questionnaire that those who were 17 years and over had to respond to. I understand there were about 50 questions, but question number 27 and 28 were the key questions that specifically talked about their willingness to serve in 00:57:00the US Army. And I have a copy of those two questions if you wished for me to read them.

Anna Takada: Sure.

Ben Takeshita: And, and these were the two questions that became very important to the rest of our lives in camp and even afterwards as far as our development was concerned. So question number 27 said, "Are you willing to serve in the Armed Forces of the United States on combat duty wherever ordered?" Now you know, when you are a young mother who had young children and so on, you, you really if you were a responsible parent, you cannot answer this question yes. Because that would mean going to combat duty wherever ordered. Now, later on, 00:58:00they did change that to not combat duty, but not in the army, but as a nurse's aid for the women anyway, but it was too late. I mean, the, the instance was... I mean the question still was on, on combat duty, even as a nurse when, wherever ordered. And so there was a lot of problems as to how do you answer this question? And so on. Question number 28, "Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and all attack by foreign or domestic forces?" So far so good. "And," not or, but "and forswear any form of allegiance of the Japanese Emperor or any other foreign government power or organization." Now, many of us Niseis born in the 00:59:00United States don't even know about the emperor. For one, our parents did because they were born in Japan, but we didn't. And, but if you answer this, yes, then that means that you are admitting based on the question that you at one time forsweared allegiance to this emperor and so on. So it was difficult to answer that. And especially then our, our parents who because of the federal law in 1924, were forbidden from becoming U.S. citizens, even if they wanted to, in order to own, own property. And that law was rescinded in 1952, shortly after Kor--, the Korean War started. So they were again, at a dilemma. If they answered this yes, then that would mean they would be without a country and so on. So these were two questions that began to affect a lot of people, a lot of 01:00:00families, a lot of relatives, as to how to answer this question. And this is where my oldest brother gets involved in that, he was in his twenties, and, and he had the experience in Japan where he had to fight the Japanese government, for, claiming to be American citizen. And therefore did not want to serve in the Japanese army that they were trying to recoup for. And the Japanese government allowed that. They didn't put him into jail, but said, "Okay, you're an American citizen, so we'll let you go." Of course, his fellow students and other public people still harassed him about joining the Japanese army and so on and, and fight. So my brother certainly remembers that. And many other kibeis, the kibeis are people who were American citizens that were educated in Japan and came back 01:01:00to the United States. And many of them felt the same way because they were experience the same thing of being harassed by the Japanese government and having to claim that they were Japanese... I mean American citizens. So they tried, when there were a lot of meetings about how to answer the questions... Excuse me. When they were asked about how to answer these questions, my brother was one of those that as a kibei went to the many mess hall meetings that occurred in all the 10 camps and start to try to encourage them to be, to answer these questions, "No." And do it as a form of protest for what the U.S. government did to us regardless of citizenship. And my brother, because of that 01:02:00activity, got on the FBI list, as being antagonistic and so on. And in fact, the FBI report that I recall shows that he was the ha-- known to the FBI people as a "hara-kiri kid" and hara-kiri means to commit suicide. And evidently in his presentations, he told them that if you answered these questions in the positive, "Yes, yes," or "Yes, yes, no, no, yes." If you answered them in the positive, then he would commit hara-kiri. So evidently he was fortunate enough to say that to the point where the FBI named him as the "hara-kiri kid". And many years later, I had asked this lady who was living in Baltimore to find out about my brother's FBI report, the labor, because of the federal archives. And 01:03:00so she investigated and, and found the report on my brother, and that's where I, I got a document that says the "hara-kiri kid" and also says that, "He does not want to repatriate to Japan. He did it as a form of protest." It's right there on the FBI report to show that a lot of times my brothers and many others did so because of their experience in Japan, that they were doing it as a form of protest for putting citizens, American citizens, regardless of trial or, or anything to be put into these so-called camps, which the young people today call prisons, which they were, you know. So I figure that my brother was very strong in, in that regards to tell, try to encourage people to answer these questions, 01:04:00"No." But then there was so much controversy and many of the fathers, parents, told their kids that "You were born and this is your country, so I will leave it up to you as to how you want to answer." And many of them did answer yes, especially those who did not go to Japan. They were here in the United States. They were certainly, tasted many of the discrimination that was occurring, job discrimination and so on. But they didn't have to fight for the citizenship as they had to do when they were in Japan. And so many of them did join the U.S. Army. And in those days they formed this Japanese American, the Nisei Battalion, 01:05:00and so on, the 442nd. And they did quite a bit of courageous work and heroics in the European stage, as many of us know from that period. So there was that group that started. There was another group then that answered "No. No." in resistance to what the US government did to, especially, American citizens and people who immigrated from Japan legally and were green card holders, and they still disregarded their rights as individual persons. So then come summer of 1942, then because of all this controversy... The US-- 1943 rather, the US government said that, "Okay, we're going to decide that all those who answered, "No, no or 01:06:00yes, no or no, yes or didn't answer at all, are considered to be disloyal to the United States, and therefore they will be sent to the camp in Tule Lake," which is in Northern California. And those in Tule Lake who answered in the positive "Yes, yes," would be sent to the other camps, or some of them were allowed even to go back to the Midwest, which many of them came to Chicago and so on during that period because they were allowed to do that. So there was a lot of movement that this began to occur in August, Septemb-- in August of 1943. And our family, in September, moved from Topaz back to California, but into this camp called Tule Lake in Northern California. There were a lot of movements that occurred during that period.

Anna Takada: Do you mind if I stop you for just one--

Ben Takeshita: Sure.

Anna Takada: ...one moment. I am curious to hear more. If you have any more details about, about your brother's involvement in organizing these meetings and about the meetings themselves, you know trying to, to coordinate with people to answer, "No, no." Was that something, were you aware of those meetings? As--

Ben Takeshita: I was aware that he was attending the meetings, but I was not of age to even be 17. So I was only 12, 13 at that time. So I wasn't even involved in the answering of the questions. But I do know that my brothers were very involved, especially my oldest brother. My, the second-oldest brother, he wasn't too much of, involved in that. He was more the studious type though, and studying and so on. But, my oldest brother was involved. But beyond that, they 01:08:00set up these meetings as you know, the managers of the block. Each block would set up these meetings for the people in that block to go attend these meetings to hear what or how to answer these questions. But other than that, I didn't attend any of these meetings, so I don't know what the atmosphere was. I understand later on that there were a lot of meetings, there were a lot of threats, and a lot of people remember those kinds of things, and therefore don't want to talk about it. Even, even to this day, there are very, very few people would even talk about the lo-- so-called loyalty questionnaire because of the bad feelings that they had. Their family may have been threatened or, or beaten, so they just don't want to talk about it and just let it go. So I'm, I'm really 01:09:00one of the few people that even talks about it. And because it's because I knew what was happening to my brothers and they were involved in that activity. And so from that standpoint, I'm able to talk about it.

Anna Takada: And do you have any idea or sense of how your parents either answered or responded?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, my parents, the reason they answered, "No, no," to that question was, to those, to those two questions were because during wartime, they wanted to keep the family together as, as, together as much as possi--, as long as possible. So that was the only reason they answered, "No, no." And naturally if they answered it, "Yes, yes," they'll be without a country anyway, because they couldn't become American citizens. And so they answered, "No, no," just to 01:10:00keep our family together. So all 10 of us when September of 1943, were sent to Tule Lake by train and, and, and started our life in Tule Lake.

Anna Takada: Was anyone else in your family at that time... Did, did anyone else answer the question, the questionnaire?

Ben Takeshita: Well, it was my two oldest brothers. My oldest sister was still not 17.

Anna Takada: Okay.

Ben Takeshita: So she didn't have to answer. So it was my two parents and my two oldest brothers that were answering the questions.

Anna Takada: Mhmm. So September in 1943, that's when you all moved to Tule Lake. And so was Tule Lake any different from Topaz?

Ben Takeshita: Well, the Tule Lake, as in terms of the living quarter, we got, 01:11:00again, two rooms because of our, the size of our thing. But the rooms were already used before by people that left Tule Lake. So the, the rooms were not new, but nevertheless they were lived in and, and they had the same thing. But they also had a stove, coal stove, because of the cold winters, just like in Topaz, there was a coal stove as well. But no running water. The blocks were the same as in Topaz, except that they, the blocks were made into wards as well. So many blocks made up a ward. And so they were ward 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on throughout. It was a bigger camp certainly, than what we were seeing in Topaz. And there were a lot of rumors flying around in those days. And one of the rumors were that where we were, who were in Tule Lake, then we would eventually 01:12:00be traded with exchanged for prisoners of war that Japan had of U.S. soldiers and that we will be eventually sent to Japan in that exchange. So my brothers and some of the other bilingual people realized that they better teach then, us kids how to speak Japanese so that when we got to Japan, we would at least be able to survive and, and speak their language. So the Japanese, my brother and many of the Japanese bilingual people, started Japanese language classes throughout Tule Lake. And our class, school was one of the first ones that started. And, and, and my brother told us, told us in the family, that since we knew our English already, that we should concentrate on learning Japanese. So he wanted us to spend full time in, in the Japanese language school that they 01:13:00started and not go to the English classes that started in, in November, December of that same year. And that, and on top of that, then he said that again, in order to learn Japan, Japanese quick- quicker, that when we got home from the schools that we only speak Japanese at home and not speak English. And, and a lot of times at the beginning I would have friends come over who didn't speak Japanese, so I would speak to them in English. But then my brother would hear us in the next room and then the next morning in the front of the class, he would tell the class that, "I heard you speaking English at home." And so hit us on the head a few times. And so that taught us very quickly that we better just speak Japanese when we got home. And so since then my life was learning Japanese and, 01:14:00and speaking Japanese as much as possible. So that was, was two and a half years that we stayed in Tule Lake. That was my life, is to learn and speak Japanese as much as possible.

Anna Takada: Did anyone, did anyone actually end up leaving Tule Lake? Or, or what happened with...

Ben Takeshita: Well, the people that answered in the positive "Yes, yes," to those two questions and certainly left. There were, as we moved in, there were others that were moving out. There were some groups that had answered it in the positive, "Yes, yes," but wanted to stay because they didn't want to leave the camp. They either had good jobs or their parents may have been elderly and they 01:15:00didn't want them to suffer moving again and so on. So they wanted to stay. So there were some groups that answered it in the positive, "Yes, yes," but stayed. But they were confined to certain parts of the camp and not mingled with the so-called "no-no" group that started to come into the camp and that were in camp when they answered those questions. So there was, then there were also people from Hawaii that, you know, who were confined and so on, that eventually came in to Tule Lake as well. They were, I guess people who were either... They were in, well, they were in camp in Hawaii. You know in recent, in recent years we found that there was also a camp set up in Hawaii as well. So a lot of those people then were moved to Tule Lake, to, to the camp there.

Anna Takada: So, in your two and a half years in Tule Lake... Probably over that time, because Tule Lake was of course kind of converted into this high max, like maximum security camp you know for those who are quote, unquote disloyal.

Ben Takeshita: Right.

Anna Takada: And which means that they, they had, there's, like you're mentioning, there's the shift of basically, people who were in there based solely on how they responded to the questionnaire?

Ben Takeshita: Did, did they what?

Anna Takada: So the, there were, the people who were moving in, like your family, were those who had responded, "No, no," to the questionnaire. In your experience, because of, of course you're still very young even at this time, do 01:17:00you remember talking to any other young people or peers who might've also moved in from a different camp? Did you hear about different experiences?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, the, in the Japanese language classes that my brothers started, we would get people from, they were all "no-nos" to begin with, their parents were. And so the people that came were either my age or a little bit older or younger, and so I met them. But in terms of why they, their parents answered, "Yes, yes," or "No, no," I mean, how they answered, we didn't get into any of that. We just were concentrating on, on learning Japanese. Now, on the weekends, again, there were baseball games to wa-- watch and so on. And as kids, there were a lot of seagulls flying around in the, in the camp. So part of what 01:18:00I remember doing was we would get sort of hooks and with a string on, attached to it, and we would put bread on it and then catch the seagull as they tried to eat the bread. And when we caught them, then I would help holding the seagulls down. And I don't know where they got it, but they got the red paint and they would put it, paint the underside of the wings with the red, red dot, so to speak, making the symbol of the Japanese flag, and then we'll let them go. So eventually there would be a lot of seagulls flying around with the red dots under their wings. And two or three years ago when I went on a Tule Lake pilgrimage, I, I saw this cartoon, that said, which showed this MP shooting at these, the seagull with the red dots on, on the wings. So that made us happy 01:19:00because we were certainly, the MPs were so, our so-called enemies that were visible to us. And to have them shooting at our production was something that we really were happy to see. But there were a lot of, a lot of seagulls flying around with the red dots on them.

Anna Takada: So I'm looking at some notes I took from your presentation last night. And one thing I wanted to ask about was... So your brothers who had k-kind of started these Japanese language classes... And you, you had mentioned even later in life finding FBI records and learning a little bit more. I'm just 01:20:00curious if you, if you can tell me about what you know of, I guess about your brothers being kind of targeted by the FBI, or at least you know raising some concern? Yeah, can you, can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Ben Takeshita: Well, that happened because after the language, Japanese language school started in Tule Lake, that was September, 1943. One year later, September, 1944, we thought we'd have a anniversary celebration of one year existence. So we had a track and field event planned, and we, that day came in September where we had, in, in Japanese they call undōkai, where it's a, a track and field event. So we started the track and field event on this field, 01:21:00and all of a sudden we were surrounded by Jeeps with military police, with rifles, and they took my oldest brother, who was one of the teachers of the school and one of the students, and took them away. So naturally, our track and field event stopped abruptly, and the student was returned very quickly that same day. But my brother was kept for weeks. We had no idea where he went or what they were doing with him or what. So, it was almost a month before he was returned. And when he was returned, he was not himself, to be sure. I could see that he was subdued and not the, the gang, the gung ho type of person, personality that he was. But as a student and he as an instructor, and instead of being brothers, I couldn't ask him at that time what had happened to him. So 01:22:00it was many years later, during the Korean War, when my brother, after the war ended in 1945, he decided to return to Japan because of the mistreatments that he got as an American citizen here in the United States. So he went back to Japan. And so during the Korean War, when I joined the U.S. Army, went and eventually assigned to Tokyo, I met him and talked to him about what had happened. And that's when he told me that they had interrogated him when they took him away. Interrogated, the FBI, interrogated him quite a bit because of his activities in Topaz during the loyalty questionnaire. And they even had, one time, then took him outside, offered him a cigarette... He was standing up 01:23:00against the fence or wall, and they gave him, offered him a cigarette, that he refused. They gave him a blindfold and put 'em on. And as he put the blindfold on, he could see a line of soldiers in front of him with rifles, and he heard the command, "Ready, aim, fire." And when the fire and the command went on, then you heard the click, click, clicks to indicate that there were no bullets in the rifle but naturally, he didn't know. And this is when I'm sure in the few seconds that he had, he remembered the incidences in Topaz right near block 37 where we were with this old man, of 55 or so years old. He was getting too close to the fence and the guard evidently told him to "Go back, you're getting too close to the fence." And the person did not hear, they said he was walking his 01:24:00dog, but I don't recall having a dog. But I do recall that he was picking up seashells. And even I have done it where there was a lot of sand and a lot of... As I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of water in those days in those sands. So we would pick the seashells and we would press it, and if it breaks, it's no good, but if it doesn't break, then we would keep it and give it to the ladies who then make bracelets and necklaces and rings out of those seashells. So we were doing that. And it takes a little concentration of doing that. And I understand this man was a, a little hard of hearing as well, but the guard didn't know that he just point blank, shot him dead. And so that was one instance. And in Tule Lake, this truck driver who lived right across in the next barrack, and he was, he was friendly talking to us, us kids about you know, his 01:25:00life and so on. And he was a truck driver that drove the farm workers out into the field and then bring 'em back to the camp. And one day this guard stopped him from coming into the camp. So he got out of the truck and walked towards the guard to see what was happening, and then the guard got afraid or something and just shot him point blank. So these were the kinds of things that were happening in the camp. I just remember two of these that occurred, and, and that's the way they kept us in line saying that, "Hey, if you disobey, we'll shoot you." And so this was the kind of atmosphere that we're involved in. And my brother was certainly involved in it to the point where I have testified under oath when the commission came out to, interro-- interrogate or talk to us about what happened in the camps in 1988, they were in San Francisco. So I testified about my 01:26:00brother's situation at that time.

Anna Takada: Was that... This testimony, was that for the... That was a part of the redress?

Ben Takeshita: Yes.

Anna Takada: Okay.

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, I was active in starting that redress movement, but there were a lot of World War II veterans that would come up to me and say, "Ben, forget about it. Don't rock the boat anymore. Just, you know it happened. Let bygones be bygones." And so we had to put out a survey that, at that time I was active with the Japanese American Citizens League. So, we would put out a survey to the Northern California District Council Group to find out if we should go ahead with the redress movement. And turned out that we had about 80, 90% 01:27:00response. And many of them said, yes, go ahead with redress. So, okay, that made us start and get going on how to, how much to ask for and so on. We started out with of $75,000, 75... yeah, thousand per person. But within the 20 years that we spent trying to get that legislation passed, it was dwindled down to $20,000 per person. So $20,000 seems like a lot of money, but when you compare it with the, the about five Vietnam veteran, Vietnam protestors during the Vietnam War, who in Washington DC were confined in jail without any trial for the weekend, they protested because they, they were in jail without any trials, and they got 01:28:00$10,000 each for being confined for three, four days unconstitutionally and suddenly. And so when you compare that with the $20,000 for three and a half years of confinement, it was really... They're cheap in terms of, of what happened to us and the treatment that we received by the U.S. government.

Anna Takada: I had... Thank you for sharing all of this. I, I am trying to stay on top of the time.

Ben Takeshita: Sure.

Anna Takada: I'm also realizing I could talk to you for hours, just try to pick your brain, but just for time's sake... Let's see. So I guess, just so we can 01:29:00have it on the record and to contextualize a little bit, can you tell me, briefly if you're able to, just where, when you were released from Tule Lake and where, where you ended up going?

Ben Takeshita: Sure. After the war ended in August of 1945, then we were told that we could return, leave the camp and return to our hometowns or wherever we wanted to go to. So my aunt and uncle were American citizens, so they had purchased a home in San Mateo, and so they invited us to go back and stay with them until we found our permanent homes. So we were able to go back to San Mateo and live in their home, which was very crowded. As soon as we got back from camp, my oldest brother decided to go back to Japan because of the mistreatments he received in the United States. So he went back, but when he went back to 01:30:00Japan he found that the Japanese people asked him, "Why did you come back?" You know, "Was there a shortage of food?" and so on. So, my brother spent a lot of time writing back to Tule Lake to his friends and so on to tell them, "Don't come back to Japan. They don't want you". And so a lot of people did not return to Japan but stayed in the United States because of what my brother did. My second oldest brother, he was still trying to learn English because he had forgotten the English that he had learned when he went back to Japan for language training in 1934 to '39. So he was still going to school and then wanted to graduate from high school in Tule Lake. So he stayed and didn't come back, go back to San Mateo with us. We went back to San Mateo and my father started working. We went to the shed that we left open-- locked with our garden 01:31:00tools but we found that that shed was broken into during that three and half years we were gone and all the tools were gone. So my father really had to start all over and pick up the tools and so on and then find the customers to do the you know, gardening work and started doing that. As a result of that kind of restarting our new life to keep us, well keep, get at some kind of income for the family, he was, was overcome and he passed away in, at the age of 55 shortly afterwards. So but the rest of us, we went back to school. I was kind of upset over my brother, oldest brother for forcing us to go to the Japanese class and 01:32:00not go to English classes because that made me two years behind in my school educ--, English school education. My fellow grades-- people before the war, they were already in high school but I had to start out in eighth grade and go on from there. So I really resented having to do that because of my oldest brother. And I also refused to admit that I spoke Japanese because I thought that was a sign of disloyalty and I didn't like that word disl-- to be disloyal but even though I didn't participate in the questionnaire I felt that I was, because I was in Tule Lake that we were labeled as being disloyal. So I wanted to prove my, you know just the fact that I was labeled disloyal. But because of the rooming conditions during high school, when I got into high school, I started 01:33:00working as a school boy for the fours years that I was in high school to, because the home where my aunt lived was too crowded. So my two oldest sisters and myself, we, they went to school girl and lived with, with rich families and did the housecleaning and, and cooking help and so on. I did the you know, school boy where I did the gardening and the, the washing dishes and some of that kind of work for the four years that I was... And while I was in high school I tried to assimilate as much as I can by joining the high school band and learned how to play the trombone and went as, and joined the Junior Statesman's Club and the German Club and the Spanish Club just to make sure that they understood who I would, where I was coming from and assimilate. And I tried 01:34:00to encourage others to do the same by mingling with the other people instead of staying together with our own racial group. So that was the kind of life that I led in high school. When high school ended in 1950, the Korean War started so I thought "Oh, this is my chance for starting, or proving my loyalty to my country." So I cleaned out the basement with a lot of things that were, we had brought back from camp and I cleaned it out, took to the dumpster. And the Korean War was still ongoing and I joined the Korean War effort, U.S. Army for three years in August of 1940-- 1950 and went to basic training in Fort Ord. And, after, before I got my assignment I was given kitchen help duty and 01:35:00assigned to the you know, washing pots and pans because I knew how to wash pots and pans because of my school boy work. And so they would assign me every day after roll call to do kitchen help work. So I thought "Oh, this isn't what I wanted." So I started to apply for U.S. Army Band and tried to get into officer candidate school. And also as a final solution I said that I spoke a little Japanese and so took the Army Language School test that they had out in Monterey, California and I passed it because of the vigorous training that I had received in Tule Lake. So I passed it and went to language school in Monterey for about a year and then got assigned with the Military Intelligence Agency and 01:36:00went on to Japan and again, started working in Tokyo and, and interrogated the repatriates from China that were coming back, the Japanese that were coming back and also the fisherman in the Kuril islands that were captured by the Russians and I interrogated them as to what the conditions were. And also went to Korea and interrogated our prisoners of war of China and Chinese, and Koreans but I didn't understand their language, didn't speak their language so I had to use a Japanese interpreter and, who spoke that, their language. And when I would ask my questions in Japanese and he would ask the prisoner in Chinese or Korean, give it back to me in Japanese and I would write it down in English. So, until this very day I think "Wow, I hope we got it all right" because of all the interpreting that was going down during that period. But I did that and also on weekends I visited with my brother where I heard, learned a lot about what had 01:37:00happened during his confinement in camp and so on and so on. I got to know him well to where 10 years later he decided to come back to the United States and so I sponsored him and came back and--

Anna Takada: What year was that?

Ben Takeshita: That was in 1950, oh 50'... I was still in the... I g-- No, I got out of camp so it was-- I mean I got out of the Army and so on and so it was 1960, somewhere in there that he did come back and he stayed in the San Jose area for about 10 years. And he had a Japanese wife and so the Japanese wife wanted to go back to Japan. So after 10 years here in the United States he, they did go back to Japan before he passed away in Japan. But I just served my time in the U.S. Army for three years and then after that started going to college 01:38:00under the G.I. bill in 1953, actually started in 1955. And then went on to U.C. Berkeley, got my Public Administration degree at U.C. Berkeley and then started working for the Department of Employment, which is a state agency because jobs were still not very good for Asian Americans in private sector so I figured that working with the state would be good, so a bit better. So I started working for the state, worked for them for 42 years with the state. And as, at the time I retired, which is 18 years ago, I was the manager of the job service offices in Contra Costa County, which is a big county within the, the San Francisco Bay 01:39:00Area and that's where I ended up being and retired in the year 2000. And since then in my retirement I've been bowling three times a week and golfing you know, at least once or twice a month and enjoying my retirement life. Also, I participate in talking about my World War II experience at least once or month or the last day of each month at the Richmond Rosie the Riveter Museum where I, we show the movie "Blossoms & Thorns", which is about the Japanese American cut flower business in the Richmond area and before and after the war and how the war affected them and talks about that. And after we show that video of, of 20 minutes or so then I talk about my World War II experience and let people know 01:40:00that this kind of thing did happen here in our United States and we want to make sure that it doesn't happen again. So, that's my story so far.

Anna Takada: Thank you so much. I'm so impressed with how you're able to just wrap that up. You know, only a casual, you know, 80 something years. (laughs) Before we completely wrap up there are just a, a few questions that I wanted to be sure to squeeze in, in the small amount of time we have left. I guess to, to start, I'm just, I'm curious to know how, how this questionnaire, you know, these two questions, how did the, the way in which your family responded to 01:41:00them, how did that kind of change or shape, rather, your experiences later on whether in camp or beyond if at all? You know did that... Because I, I know that there you know, there were lots of different ways in which people responded to, to this, to the idea or concept of serving in the military in the 44, the 442nd. So I'm just curious if you can just tell me how, how that affected your life?

Ben Takeshita: It affected me quite a bit as I had related because I didn't like the word that we were "disloyal" just because we were in Tule Lake. Although I was not of age to answer the questionnaire we were in to Tule Lake and so with the Japanese American Citizens League, which, where I was active, I was known as 01:42:00the "No-No Boy" in, in a derogatory way and I didn't realize it un-until then, but, at that time but evidently it was. And I wanted to you know, prove that I was not disloyal and also, I felt that based on my brother's experience, that the Kibeis had a reason for answering no, no because of their harassment at the Japanese government during the war there in Japan. And there were many of them that were harassed the same way. So the Kibeis, the, the people that were educated in Japan, American citizens, they couldn't understand how, why the Niseis who were born and not raised, or not, had not gone to Japan, how they would answer those questions yes when they were you know, discriminated against 01:43:00and put into camp regardless of citizenship and how they could even answer those two questions yes. So they vocally you know, were many times very active in trying to convince people to answer "no, no" and, and as I, I admit that there was many beatings or a lot of verbal you know, arguments and so on. And many of them were older so they would talk a lot more and then they got a bad reputation of being Kibeis and troublemakers and all these kinds of things. But that's why my purpose is to let them know that this is the reason, one of the reasons why they answered "no, no" is to, because of their experience in Japan, and also their, they had to fight for their citizenship at a young age and coming back 01:44:00here our own government decided not to respect that citizenship that Japan even had respected or understood. So those are the kinds of things that affected my life. And, and so I, I feel pretty good in that you know, I joined the U.S. Army so no one could call me not, to call me disloyal because I, I enlisted. I didn't want for the draft. I enlisted for a three year period to serve my time, in a time of war when the Korean War was very hot when I joined in August of 1950. So all, all those things I feel comfortable. And in terms of speaking Japanese, at one time I thought that speaking Japanese might be a sign of disloyalty but I went to the Army Language school, went to MI--, got assigned with the Military 01:45:00Intelligence and I was able to, for the U.S. Government, speak in Japanese and teach, give information to our U.S. Army about what was happening and so on. So I was using my Japanese to help them out instead of you know being labeled. So, to, to me speaking Japanese is no longer a sign of disloyalty but something that I could use. And in fact, when I started working for the Department of Employment at the time and I started being active in the professional association of that organization, the Japanese, we used to have international delegates, I mean, conventions throughout the United States and Japan would send delegates over, the Minister of Labor, there and I would volunteer to interpret for them because they, a lot of them didn't speak English. And since 1964 for 32 01:46:00years I helped them out to where again, I continued to speak my Japanese and learn to speak Japanese, use it for the senior citizens, the first generation Japanese that were getting older and started the Japanese Senior Center in our community and started working with people like, organizations that have training and so on for the seniors in our community. So I've done a lot of that as a result of my camp experience in Tule Lake and setting up my thinking process to where... And especially today with the political climate the way it is and some of the politicians still talking about using our Japanese American experience, World War II experience as a precedent for taking care of other racial groups 01:47:00like the Muslims and so on. And so I figured, well I must continue to speak out and let people know that, "Hey, this kind of thing did happen here in our United States. It is part of our history. We want to make sure that based on that constitution that we do not have this kind of thing repeated again regardless of who they are, what religion they are, what the bisexual nature of, or whatever." That the individual rights as guaranteed in our constitution must be taken care of. So that's my message that I try to pass on at least once a month here in Richmond.

Anna Takada: Well, thank you. That's, it's definitely being heard. You know, being there last night at that presentation at the Albany Park Library, you 01:48:00know, lots of people are coming out and hearing what you have to say.

Ben Takeshita: Good. Yes.

Anna Takada: I just have one more, one more question.

Ben Takeshita: Okay.

Anna Takada: I appreciate you talking about the, about the term and phrase No-No Boy because something that's interesting to me as a yonsei, and hearing how at your time at the JACL, for example, it was almost used as a derogatory word.

Ben Takeshita: Yes.

Anna Takada: Whereas now in, at least in some of the circles and networks that I work within, it's almost more of a positive thing, you know. And I think young people really kind of catch on to the fact that there was, there was a lot of, of passion and resistance and you know, ironically a lot of loyalty. You know, U.S. Citizens were kind of taking control of their own you know, civil rights 01:49:00to, to take a stand.

Ben Takeshita: Mhmm.

Anna Takada: So I'm just, I'm wondering if, you know, so we can have it on the record, how, how would you define or maybe explain the word "No-No Boy"? What does that mean as a term to you as someone whose family was kind of categorized in this way?

Ben Takeshita: Because of the laws that you know, forbid the Isseis from becoming citizens and own property and so on and because of the experiences that the Kibeis had in Japan about being, trying to be forced into the Japanese Army and resisting that force and also having our own government refuse to acknowledge that citizenship and put all of us into these camps, so-called camps during World War II, I feel that we have to keep you know, making sure that 01:50:00people don't do this again to anybody. And, I don't know. I, I think I lost track of what your question was but...

Anna Takada: Just how would you define No-No Boy or that term?

Ben Takeshita: Yeah. Well, I would say they were misunderstood, that No-No Boys were misunderstood. And that's my process to try to make sure that many of them did it because they wanted to oppose or why almost one year when the questionnaire came out of being in camp they really felt that, "Why are we in here for?" You know and then felt really resistant. They didn't, we didn't resist going into camp but then after almost a year in camp with these non-private, privacy affected and so on, family life affected and so on that 01:51:00this was wrong and we didn't have any trial or anything to prove that we did something wrong. So, this was to.... There's still misunderstanding of why these people did that and, and they don't, many of them don't realize that they did it because of resisting or objecting to what the U.S. Government did and not because of being loyal to the Japan or whatever. That loyalty, disloyalty thing is a label that the U.S. Government put on those who answered in the negative or not answered at all and not because of what we had done. And so I want people to understand that, I wouldn't say 100%, but most of them had reasons for answering no, no and it wasn't because of loyalty or disloyalty. It was because they were resisting the fact that the U.S. Government put us into camp regardless of citizenship.

Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much again for, for coming in and sharing. Before we completely wrap up are there any last things that you'd like to add or anything that I may have missed in this conversation?

Ben Takeshita: No, except that you know, all my experiences and so on was all as it relates to our family during World War II. And there are a lot of other experiences, other ways that they voted and so on. And, and that's only my family's experience and what I know of what happened as I remember it and so on. So other families may have different versions of, of their family experience.

Anna Takada: Thank you. Sherry and Craig, are there any questions that you have for Mr. Takeshita before we wrap up?

Sherry: You referred to some beatings in Tanforan when you were having the mess 01:53:00hall meetings, so were those beatings between internees? You didn't, you didn't hear of beatings of, of MPs of the internees, it was more within the internees that were fighting?

Ben Takeshita: You're talking about Topaz?

Sherry: The Topaz mess hall meetings after the questionnaire.

Ben Takeshita: Yeah, as, I was too young to be involved in that questionnaire itself. So it's... My knowledge of the questionnaire and so on comes from what my brothers told me when I was in Japan and I was talking to my brothers. I, really you know we were kids and we were just going to school and so on. So I know that my brother was involved in a lot of those activities but what they talked about or how those mess hall meetings went on, we didn't, we didn't even, I didn't even go to them. All I know is that they were having these meetings throughout the camp and my brother was involved in going to many of those meetings.

Sherry: Okay. And also, in Tule Lake you recall Uncle Spencer being arrested. Were you aware that there was a jail on Tule, at Tule Lake and that there were other people that were detained there before Uncle Spencer got--

Ben Takeshita: No, I didn't, I wasn't aware of it at that time because we didn't know where he was, my brother was taken to. And again, because I was so involved in the Japanese Language school and although my brother was taken away, we didn't know where he was. We were more concerned with where he was and so on. They didn't tell us that they took us to a stockade or that there was a stockade. None of them, they weren't, you know, they didn't keep telling us about they having a stockade. Now, they were trying to destroy that stockade and building. And so we're trying to make sure that it is kept because there is a 01:55:00history of what happened during those times in the World War II.

Craig: Yeah, I just want to say I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story and speaking out. And especially your desire that nothing like this ever happen again to, to anybody in the United States.

Ben Takeshita: Yes. Yes, that is very important because of the political climate as it is now. It's very important that people understand that it has happened here in our United States, 75 years ago to be sure but still they're talking about using it as a precedent. And so that really made me all the more you know, willing to continue on to make sure that people realize this kind of thing can't 01:56:00happen again, not in our United States.

Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much again, Mr. Takeshita. We really appreciate you coming in and sharing.

Ben Takeshita: I want to thank the Chicago Japanese, Japanese American Historical Society for giving me this privilege because as, as I keep repeating, I want to make sure that as many people as possible get a chance to hear what happened to us during that period. It wasn't, you know for us kids you know, we had fun playing because there was no school and all that. And a lot of the adults you know, talk about having dance class, dance groups and so on. And they make it sound like they had a lot of fun but, at the same time you know, we got to keep remembering that we were in, in prison and we had no freedom. So we try 01:57:00to, as human beings, we just tried to make the best of it under the circumstances. And, and people think, some, some people will say, you know that, well, they were captured by the Japanese Army in the Philippines and so on and the march that they had to go through and so on. And they, they said, "Well, gee, you were fed and you didn't have to eat." And so on whereas many of them starved and so on. And they try to compare our experience with the soldiers' you know, treatment by the Japanese soldiers and, and try to relate the two and compare and say you know, "Well, you were in better shape than they were," and that kind of thing. And so, people have to realize that hey, we were American citizens and you know, no American citizen would be, should have been involved by our U.S. Government for this kind of treatment. It should've been as the 01:58:00Con-- Constitution states by trial, by, by court if necessary, but certainly not arbitrarily by just one president with an executive order, you know.

Anna Takada: Thank you so much.

Ben Takeshita: Okay. Thank you.