Watanabe, Anne (8/19/2017)

Anna Takada: So could we start by, can you state your name and name, age and hometown?

Anne Watanabe: Yeah. Um, my name is Anne Yuki Watanabe. Um, my, I'm 27 years old and my hometown, I, I don't really feel like I have a hometown because I moved around growing up. I lived in like a bunch of places, like seven years at a time, but I was born in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. And then I lived in Ottawa for three years, then New Jersey for seven years. And then I went to college in Western Mass.

AT: And what if you don't mind me asking, what was the reason for moving around?

AW: Um, it was like, I think a combination, like my dad went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana, and then when he finished school he, like, it was, I guess it was mostly like employment and school related for my parents. Yeah.

AT: And do you have any siblings?

AW: I have one brother, actually, no, I have two siblings. I have a brother who's two years older than me, who I grew up with, and then I have a half sister who I've never met. She was adopted in a closed adoption. So, um, I'm planning to look for her, but she won't be able to like look for us until she's 18. So I can't really, I feel like I can't really do anything about it right now.

AT: Okay. And so Champaign, Ottawa, New Jersey, Western Mass. Umm. Where of those places do you, do you identify any one is home more than the other?

AW: No, I don't really, I have a hard time with that. Like I have a hard time with the concept of home and I think like it is partly about having this sort of 00:02:00geographically like moved around throughout my childhood. But I think it's also partly about this like pattern of leaving that I feel like my parents were kind of in like they both moved pretty far away from their families of origin. They were the only people in their families of origin to like, you know, leave sort of their hometowns. And so yeah, I feel like I've like internalized something similar about not quite feeling like settled anywhere.

AT: And so, so where, where were your parents from?

AW: Um, so my mom is from Tokyo. Um, she, yeah, she was born and raised in Japan and she lived there until, I think her late twenties or early thirties. And my dad is from, from Ottawa. I think he grew up between like Toronto and Ottawa. I'm not sure. I think it was mostly an Ottawa. Um, but his whole family is Japanese Canadian and they all live in like either Toronto or Ottawa.

AT: Okay. Um, you, can you, can you talk a little bit about, um, about your family's connection to the history of the incarceration during World War II and Canada and you know, where your grandparents were?

AW: Yeah, so I don't feel like I know a whole lot because I haven't really gotten to talk to them about it a lot. And you know, my family's, which partly has to do with sort of my relationship with my family in general. But, um, my dad's family was all incarcerated in Canada that during World War II. So they originally were from the West Coast of Canada, like I think in like Vancouver and um, and they were incarcerated in the Tashme and Lillooet camps. I don't really know anything about those camps. I did. Um, I tried to do an oral history 00:04:00interview with my grandfather, my dad's father, and then also with my Auntie Fumi who is my grandmother's sister. Um, but yeah, I feel like, you know, I, it was really hard to kind of get any stories and I feel like I like really kind of got the summer camp version of the story where it was sort of like, yeah, you know, like it was hard, but we worked hard and it was fine.

AT: Um, so growing up, uh, where your, did you have your grandparents alive and did you have a relationship with them?

AW: Yeah, my grandfather is still alive. Um, but I would say like, you know, my relationship with my dad's family has always felt kind of fraught. Um, cause like I think my parents were both sort of like the black sheeps of their family. 00:05:00And, um, in my, you know, my dad kind of like moved far away and so we wouldn't see them that often, like maybe like once a year at the most. Um, but there was always a lot of tension between, like, there was, there was like tension about like the nikkei-ness of like my family where like my mom had this narrative that like, they didn't like her because she was too Japanese and my, and, but she was also like very like judgmental of them as like nikkei, like Japanese Canadians where she felt like they weren't like truly Japanese. Um, and you know, and there were like tensions for other reasons. So whenever we went there to visit, like I was always kind of being given this narrative, like, like, we should be careful here because they don't really like us. Um, and so I think I just never 00:06:00really felt that close to my dad's family because I didn't, you know, I felt the sense of like distrust when I was there. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, the, the like, yeah, I mean, I grew up knowing, I don't remember like how exactly how I learned about it, but there was like openness about the fact that like, you know, like Japanese, um, incarceration during World War II had happened. And I later found out, I didn't know this at the time growing up, but I later found out that my grandfather was involved in some of like the reparations work, like the organizing around it. Um, and he was very like, you know, like he's Nisei and like he speaks Japanese fluently and like he, um, you know, like did taiko drumming and stuff. And so he didn't, I think he tried to like pass on sort of like, he just, um, well what am I saying, uh, yeah, just 00:07:00like he, he clearly like felt that the incarceration was an injustice and he was like open and from that and he liked, did work around that and he did work to like, you know, personally connect with his Japanese heritage and for his children to have some of that too. Um, so yeah, that's definitely something I saw, but it does feel like there is, you know, um, like there's this way in which like, it impacted my family that like, like nobody really wanted to talk about that. Um, like I think, you know, my, like, I think, part of my fam, my parents both leaving their families of origin like had something to do with like family trauma, although it's not really clear to me like what exactly, but my dad dealt with like a lot of addiction later in his life. Um, like my dad died 00:08:00in 2012 but in like, you know, like the five, let's see, 2012. Yeah, I would say like the five or six years before he died, like he dealt with like a ton of addiction to some like pretty hard drugs. Like he was addicted to crack and heroin. Um, he kind of went through this like midlife crisis and um, you know, he was like in and out of jail and he was in and out of rehab briefly. And then he went back to Canada and he actually liked, got completely clean and like had this like major recovery, but then he liked died of a heart attack a couple of years later. So I, I dunno, I'm just like, you know, I just like, and especially like growing up too, like there was a lot of trauma in my nuclear family. Um, and like stuff that my parents were struggling with and that my dad in particular struggling with. And so I kind of feel like you don't like do that unless you're like dealing with some like demons, but he just, and, yeah. And I 00:09:00just like, you know, I saw, I noticed all of the sort of like gaps in my family's ability to like, you know, there's just kind of like, we don't really know where that came from. Like we don't really know or like just like not talking about like the incarceration and how it's impacted our family. But like, I believe that it has, but I don't quite like, know in what way.

AT: And does your dad have siblings?

AW: Yeah, he has four siblings. Um, he has one older sister and three younger brothers.

AT: Excuse me. How in what you know about them, like do you think that they, have you ever talked about the incarceration with them or like outside of your nuclear family?

AW: Yeah, I have. Um, they're like a, they're more open about it then my grandfather. So, you know, they've kind of told me that like, like I know my 00:10:00grandfather had a younger brother who died while they were in the camps. Like he, there was like some situation where he was supposed to be watching his younger brother and they were like out somewhere. I don't remember exactly what the circumstance was, but like he had been charged with watching him and then somehow like his brother died, like he like fell in a river or something, something like he drowned I think. And so he, my grandfather felt like super responsible for that and somehow like that particular circumstance happening was like connected to the whole like experience of being incarcerated. Um, and so, yeah, like my uncles have, you know, kind of said that they think my grandfather has a lot of like, you know, just like anger and like resen-, like bitterness about the experience, but he doesn't, but it just like he doesn't, he doesn't talk about it in that way. Um, like, yeah, like it's just hard. But yeah, like 00:11:00they, they think that that's part of kind of what has like been like hard in our family is that he does have all this like, stuff that is bottled up or that he's been holding in, but like, you know, it's just like, it's just there.

AT: And what about your grandmother's side and her story of internment?

AW: Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I really, I really feel like I didn't know my grandmother at all. Um, yeah, like she, I was never close with her and like, she really didn't, like, she didn't have a very vocal presence. Like, I 00:12:00don't remember ever having a conversation with her. Um, you know, like she was just sort of there. And then it was, it was weird cause when I asked my uncle about that, or like one of my uncles, he was just like, yeah, I don't remember ever having a conversation with her either. And I was like, well, that was your mom. Um, so there's kind of, and like, yeah, her relationship with my grandfather was kind of like deferential in this way, that I don't know. Like, yeah, I just feel like I didn't really get to see her that much, like as a person. Um, I feel like I knew her sister is more than I knew her, which like her, her older sister Auntie Fumi who's like the oldest. My grandmother had four sisters and Auntie Fumi was the oldest and she was the youngest. Um, and Auntie Fumi is kind of like the matriarch of the family and like, you know, like, like 00:13:00lots of like multiple, like my, I think my dad and some of my uncles had like lived in her basement and while they were like in school or like, you know, she just kind of like took care of everybody. Like she never got married or had her own family. She like took care of her parents, like when they became elderly. Um, and especially my great-grandmother, like they lived together for a long time until my great-grandmother died. Um, and yeah, like Auntie Fumi has always sort of asserted that like she did what she wanted and, um, you know, she always wanted to take care of her parents and kind of like do her duty as like the oldest. Um, but yeah, like I also tried to ask her about the incarceration a little bit and you know, she's very, like, she's a really like, practical sort of person and she doesn't, you know, she, I know she like, she taught elementary 00:14:00school during the camps. Um, so she was, she was like, I think like a teenager. I think she was like 16 or so. Um, but she was one of like the elementary school teachers because they just didn't have enough people to like teach school. Um, so then she later became a teacher, like after the war. Um, and yeah, and I knew like, they grew like, you know, gardens and stuff for food.

AT: Um, and so, and this is what you've learned from conversations with her directly?

AW: Yeah. Yeah. She's told me that. Um, yeah, I don't, but yeah, she doesn't really talk about how she felt about it. Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I know they were, you know, I guess they were resettled to like the Toronto and Ottawa area, 00:15:00which are like in the Eastern sort of side of Canada. So similar to like what happened in the U.S. Um, and other people, like my dad's cousin had talk, has talked to me about how, you know, she really like feels like, um, like Japanese Canadian communities got like broken up after the war and how she feels like people were afraid to like openly, like identify too much as a community, um, and afraid of being targeted in the same way again. But yeah, it all feel, I guess it all feels really piecemeal. Like I don't feel like I've really had super coherent conversations with anyone in my family. It's just like little bits and pieces here and there.

AT: What are some other, um, like stories, like family stories or, you know, 00:16:00that's the needs and like in my experience too is, you know, it's like just a blurb, you know, I, I feel like I'm just like collecting little pieces of, um, you know, my, my own family's experiences. And it sounds like it's similar. So, um, if there are more stories, what might some of those be or memories?

AW: Yeah, he know. I feel like I might be the extent of them. I really can't think of that many more. I mean, I know we had like, you know, like Farewell to Manzanar and like that, like that was a book that like my grandparents had in their house. Um, so I think I've probably read that at some point. Um, and, but yeah, I feel like I didn't really get it as like a significant thing when I was 00:17:00growing up. Um, because of how it was kind of treated as a very like, as like sort of a footnote, you know, in, in my family. Like it was right the way that it was piecemeal. It was sort of just like this like, oh, side note. We were incarcerated during World War II. Um, so I don't think I really understood that it was significant and it was only later in life after I became an adult that I became a lot more interested in the history. Like, even everything that I do know, it's mostly stuff I've learned after, you know, like in my early twenties, um, when I was just like, oh, whoa, I've never actually heard the stuff from my family is I went and kind of tried to go digging for it a little bit. Um, but that was challenging too because there was like other stuff that had happened in my family. So like I was kind of like a little bit estranged from them for a couple of years. Um, so I just didn't really have the relationships to be able 00:18:00to really get more of the story in the way that I wanted.

AT: Okay. And so you said you were kind of delving into it in your early 20s. Was that when you were in the college?

AW: Mmhmm, yeah, when I was in college, I, um, I was in a class that I had to write a research paper for and I ended up writing it on like the intergenerational effects of Japanese internment, which was not necessarily something I had, I was out there looking for. But I like, I, I, it was like a, I was trying to like look at how, um, you know, I was interested in sort of like Asian American and Japanese American, like activism in like the 70s and 80s. And through that I like enc-, stumbled across some books that talked about like the intergenerational stuff. And I was really surprised because I had never read 00:19:00about that or like thought about it before. Um, but I definitely recognize a lot of myself and my family and sort of like the stuff around how people didn't talk about it and how, you know, people had a very like, summer camp sort of narrative about the whole thing or at least like a lot of people did, or my family did. Um, and you know, I, I identified too, like some of those books talked about how like trauma showed up in terms of like addiction and in terms of like, you know, like, um, like family violence and things like that that happened, um, as a result and how that was connected to like anger about the internment. Um, so yeah, I think I like thought a lot about, you know, like, especially at that point in my life. I think my dad was living back in Canada at that point and had, you know, was like no longer really using drugs, but he had 00:20:00just very recently like been in all of that. So yeah, like I was thinking a lot about how him going through that, like that that had come from somewhere. Um, and trying to like understand what he was dealing with and yeah, I think, um, I think like, it's interesting how, you know, like I felt really disconnected. Like I have, it's weird like, you know, compared to a lot of other like nikkei people, I have a lot of connection to sort of my, like my Japanese heritage because my mom is an immigrant from Japan and so like, I grew up bilingual and like, you know, I grew up like visiting her family in Japan. Um, and then my, my dad's family, like, you know, like they at least did like pass down a lot of the 00:21:00sort of cultural stuff. Like they grew up, you know, like my grandfather plays taiko and they grew up doing judo and like, you know, they're like Buddhists in my grandmother's family who like go to temple who will go to a Japanese American temple every week. And so like that stuff had been passed down. But like I still felt really disconnected from, I guess from like a sense of like community around it because my parents had both sort of like, we're really isolated from Japanese Canadian or like, you know, Japanese American community. Um, and I didn't, I don't know, like I just, um, yeah, I think that lack of community like made it feel like my identity, like as a Japanese American person wasn't really, 00:22:00like, I just had no frame of reference for it. It was just like whatever was in my own life.

AT: Sure.

AW: But yeah.

AT: Do you think that's because, um, what, why, why do you think that was kind of, um, disconnect or not, or not, you know, like being a part of any particular communities that are moving or?

AW: Yeah, I mean, it was definitely from moving, um, and from like living in places where there weren't really communities. Cause I mean, I think, um, you know, like it seems like Ottawa and Toronto were probably some of the major resettlement sites in Canada. So like, there were communities there. And I think, um, yeah, it's not clear to me how much my dad's generation, like the sansei generation grew up with a community. Um, but like definitely like my 00:23:00grandfather's like generation, like the nisei generation, you know, like their whole sort of social community was like very Japanese. Um, and it seems like, yeah, like there was a solid, like nikkei community there. Um, so I think that that really existed in the place that my dad grew up in, but like, but he left and you know, for whatever reason, like, yeah, that wasn't something that he felt connected to or like wanting to seek out. Um, and so, yeah. And in none of the places that I lived there wasn't really like, you know, like a nikkei community in the sense of like, post-World War II resettlement. Like there were some times like in New Jersey, like there were some like sort of like shin-nisei 00:24:00community or like shin-nikkei communities of like people who had immigrated more recently, but that's like a really different experience. Um, so yeah, I don't know, like I guess I, yeah, I still wonder about like, why, why my dad left and why cause I, yeah, I feel like that has like really impacted my sense of connection. Like I just wonder what it would have been like to grow up in, you know, in like Ottawa or in Toronto where I would have had a really different, like kind of access to like a Japanese, like to a yonsei community.

AT: And so when you came to Chicago, I mean, how we met was through Japanese American community programs, things like that. So can you, can you talk a little 00:25:00bit about your experience coming to Chicago? And, I mean, I imagine you, you tapped in at some point, so can you describe what that was like?

AW: Yeah, it was really, um, yeah, it was really interesting. I, I definitely was like seeking something, you know, and I felt a lot of like, both really wanting it and also like, you know, knowing that I'm like an outsider to this particular like community that has this long history of having resettled here right after World War II and, and really having like built, you know, like, especially like, because of all the sort of exclusion from things like housing or like social services or like certain kinds of resources right after World War II like, um, yeah, I was really struck by how people had really built their own institutions here and like that, like the JASC was started as like a social 00:26:00service organization for that reason. And that like, you know, like there were like Japanese American, like, you know, sports leagues and, um, just that like the community had sort of organized itself in this particular way because like, they had to, um, and that, yeah. And that, like, you know, that that's sort of the origins of the community here. And so I think like, I felt definitely this sense of like, like, oh, like, you know, like people who are yonsei here actually have a sense of connection, to like this history, not only on the personal like family level of like, oh, like this is a thing that happened to my grandparents, but on a bigger like community level, which like I had never really experienced that before. Um, and umm I think too, I was struck by 00:27:00like...I don't know. Yeah, I think it's just like, because I didn't have close nikkei friends for most of my life, the way that I kind of thought about the interment was sort of like, oh, you know, like it wasn't that big of a deal. Like it's not like these were like death camps, you know, it's not like, and so yeah, like I kinda, I kinda had just taken on this narrative that it was like, that it wasn't that significant. Um, and I think, yeah, like, it was important for me to like be around other, like, people who are yonsei who like did see it as really significant and who did really care about like this history and like had thought a lot about like how it had impacted their families. Um, and yeah, and that was just like, yeah, I mean it felt like I was like gaining some 00:28:00perspective or gaining some piece of like my personal history that I didn't even have access to through my own family. Um, because of how they like talked or didn't talk about it. Um, and yeah, and I think like I've been definitely thinking a lot about how, like, how quickly like targets change in like white supremacy and racism in this country. And like, I think Japanese Americans are such an interesting example of that because you know, like we went from being like incarcerated in mass during World War II, to being like lifted up as like, you know, thee like sort of token example of, you know, upward mobility and like assimilation and like. Right? And that has had like really, you know, like in 00:29:00terms of like the material reality, it's like, yeah, like that has been the experience of a lot of like Japanese Americans. Um, and I think, I think it's just like, it's telling like how, I don't know, like...I think, well, I guess there's a couple of things. One is that I, I think that that still has like a lot of like sort of like emotional and like spiritual and psychic cost to like the fracturing of like community and identity and like how like I was actually talking to someone I know recently who, um, whose family was resettled to Chicago after World War II and they grew up in like a really small town somewhere on the East Coast, but in like a rural small town in the East Coast where, and it was like, it was specifically because like her grandmother had been sitting in some community meeting in Chicago at some point and they were basically like, look like we shouldn't, like, we should try to disperse because 00:30:00if we're all here together, like we're a target. And so that was why like her family ended up in this like tiny town on the East Coast, like completely like isolated from anyway, Japanese American community. Um, and so yeah, like it's just like interesting to be in this community of like people who like did stay and who liked did kind of preserve this community when, you know, so much of the consequences of the impact of World War II was that like, you know, that there used to be these really like strong thriving Japanese American communities on the West Coast and they were like really like broken up and um, and like, yeah, like fractured as a result, of the War.

AT: And when did you come to Chicago and first start connecting with the Japanese American community here?

AW: Um, it was in 2015. Yeah, I moved here in the summer of 2015. So it was 00:31:00about two years ago and I didn't. Yeah, I mean I went to a couple of things when I first moved here. I think I went to like one of the festivals at the JASC or something and I felt like both this deep sense of like, whoa, like I really wanted it. Like I really, I felt really like moved to be in a space where there was such a strong sense of community around being like Japanese American or like being nikkei and at the same time, and like this like intergenerational community and like, you know, just all this stuff that I had never had. And at the same time, like I felt this deep sense of like, like these people all like grew up here, you know, like it just, I really felt like an outsider to the community but like really wanted to have some kind of community around it. Um, 00:32:00but I mean it was really through, I think like I started going to some of the events with Next Generation Nikkei, which is like a group of um, uh, you know, like primarily like yonsei, and like younger generation nikkei people. And, um, I think, yeah, I was really struck by the work that was being done through the JACL with the Kansha project of like, bringing like, you know, young like Japanese Americans to do a pilgrimage to the camps and to like learn some of the history. Um, and, um, and it seemed like a lot of community had been built among our generation through doing that kind of work. Um, and then, yeah, and then I met also like Kenji there who works with the JACL who, um, was helping to organize like some kind of summit for people to talk about. Like, you know, our 00:33:00relationship as Japanese Americans or like as Asian Americans to kind of, um, like movements for Black lives and how to be in solidarity with, um, with like Black Lives Matter. And so I think just like seeing people like making connections to how, like, knowing our history is like an important part of like identity and community. Like, as yonsei. And then like connecting that to, um, the kind of, you know, like what racism looks like now in the U.S. and like what, you know, what movements we want to be like in support of or aligned with and like what are like our role is and, in like supporting that. Um, I think yeah, like that was really what, you know, like that felt really important to me and I wanted to like be in community with people who were thinking about that.

AT: To answer your own that, that question. Um, what do you think, umm, what do you think is the role of the Japanese American community and some of the current movements and any issues that are happening? What do you...we'll start there.

AW: Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean I think like, I think a lot about the concept of like moving targets, you know, like, um, like that the way that like the model minority myth and like assimilation has been used. Um, and the way that, like, the fracturing of Japanese American communities and Japanese American identity has been used in order to like, basically it's like people are either assimilated into or rejected from like, you know, like whiteness or like 00:35:00nationhood or citizenship or whatever based on what's like politically convenient at the time. And so I think of like Irish and like Italian immigrant, like, you know, like European immigrant communities that were like really like not seen as white, um, for long periods of time in U.S. history. And it was really like in certain moments like when there was the threat of like some kind of unified, like um, you know, like working class movement between I think in like, I know in like New York and probably like other places too, there was like moments when there was a lot of like interracial, like working class organizing between these like European immigrant communities and like, you know, Puerto Ricans or like other people of color. Um, and it was in those moments where there's the threat of that, that like there was a big push to like, assimilate 00:36:00and to basically sort of offer this bribe of like, you get to be part of whiteness if you can like turn your backs on, you know, this possibility of solidarity and this possibility of like having unity with people who like you see a common struggle with. And so I think like, yeah, with Japanese Americans to like, you know, like I think we've seen and with like Asian Americans more generally, like, you know, the stuff that we've seen with like, like Chinese Americans turning out to like rally and supported Peter Liang who was the police officer, the Chinese American police officer who like murdered Akai Gurley. Um, and seeing like how we kind of have this like fraught position now within like the racial hierarchy in the US. Um, I think it's like, you know, we get to like, I think we just like have this opportunity to like make a choice about like, 00:37:00like when we like talk about our history, it's like a reminder that like whatever we're being offered in exchange for like assimilation, it's like, yeah. Like there's real like material survival attached to that and also like, you know, it's, it's like, I dunno just that like, like in the system that we live in, like, like everything that is like being used in order to like, ummm, in order to like divide people and like get people to invest in like a system that is ultimately like not gonna work for everybody is, is like a tactic. And, um, so yeah, I think it's important to like for us to talk about like how, um, uh, sorry

AT: You're fine.

AW: I'm like, uh all the way out here, but yeah, I mean basically just that yeah, it is important for us to like, you know, like continue speaking up about racism and about all the ways that like, especially like there is such a now that like, you know, like racism doesn't really exist or like it doesn't really exist in the same way that it used to. And like, it is a lot more like hidden in like institutions and in all of these ways that it like codes itself into, um, things that like aren't as overt but like, like clearly are about racism. But like, it's easy to, for it to like represent itself as not being about that. And 00:39:00so, yeah, I think it's important for us to like, speak up about that and, um, you know, and to not like lose how our history connects us to people to like everyone who's struggling against that.

AT: Do you think that something like this, the incarceration experience of Japanese Americans, do you think something like this wouldn't happen again?

AW: Um, yeah, definitely. I mean, I don't know. Like, I think what's hard about like the society that we live in is that it's really adaptive to like how, you know, it's kind of like how Michelle Alexander talks about it in the new Jim Crow, how like, like, because of the Civil Rights Movement, like racism has had 00:40:00to kind of like code itself into institutions in ways where it can't be like openly identified. And so like, I don't know if it would happen like in quite the same way, but I feel like, yeah, I mean, we're definitely, especially right now, like we're seeing such a resurgence of like, um, you know, just like people feeling really emboldened to like openly express. They're like, um, just like their racism and their desire for like a white nation. And, um, and I think it was really interesting. I was listening to this interview with, um, on Democracy, Democracy Now with this guy who like works for an organization that helps people like disengage from like extreme right wing groups. Like, you know, like Neo Nazis and stuff like that. And he was just talking and he was, he's a former Neo Nazi. Um, he was Neo Nazi in the 80s and 90s and he got out and he 00:41:00was just talking about how like 30 years ago, they basically like actually came up with this strategy of like, look, we're not going to be able to, like, we have all these supporters among sort of like, right, like lots of like the average like racist white American, but who are going to be like too scared to like openly join us with our like, you know, being like skinheads and being like openly Nazis or whatever being aligned with the Ku Klux Klan. And so we should like, you know, instead of shaving our heads, we should like put on suits and like, you know, go to college and we should like become police officers. And we should join the military and we should like become politicians and run for office. And like basically they actually like literally came up with a strategy of like we should put ourselves in institutions and he was saying like the world that we're living in now, like this, like Trump's America or whatever, is like literally like the realization of that, you know, of that plan that they came up 00:42:00with. Um, and yeah, so I just, I think like, absolutely like there's tons of people in our government and in like the police force and in the military and our institutions that like would support something like that happening and you know, and there's more and more sort of permission for people to be like open about those views. Um, so it does feel like we're heading in the direction of like something like that happening. And also, at the same time, I think, you know, obviously there's a lot of people who are going to be in resistance to that. I mean, one thing that really strikes me about World War II Japanese American incarceration. Like when I was walking around this gallery and looking at the pictures as I was like, you know, like what, like, I mean, yeah, it's a 00:43:00really different historical moment, but just like we're there, like, nobody that was like refusing to drive the buses are like nobody who was like blockading the streets or like, you know, just like, it seemed like there was so many opportunities for people to like refuse or to disrupt at least what was happening. And I just like, that's like one thing that I would definitely is like now I feel like, you know, people are like much more committed or like have more tools around organizing that kind of disruption. Um, and so yeah, I would hope that like there would definitely be like lots and lots of resistance to things moving in that direction, but I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that's a weird moment that we live in and it's hard to know like where we're headed.

AT: Um, as we wrap up there, I do want to kind of backtrack a little bit, um, 00:44:00because I, I'm just curious about where, like how you experienced internment in your education, in the ages, you know, um, where you're learning about World War II. Then like how, how did that come up in the classroom?

AW: I barely remember it. I think it was basically just sort of a footnote, you know, like I remember it was like three sentences in a textbook kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't think there was ever like a unit on it or like any like concerted focus. It was just sort of like a side note.

AT: Did you ever, do you remember reacting to that at all or just kind of like oh yeah?

AW: You know, honestly, I think I had so deeply internalized this belief that it was insignificant that I, it didn't strike me at all that it was a footnote. Yeah.

AT: Well, I think we can be wrapping up, but is there, is there anything that I 00:45:00might've missed or that you'd want to add before we wrap up?

AW: Not that I think they can think of.

AT: Thank you so much for recording with us.

AW: Thank you. Thank you.