Yoshikawa, Gordon (4/10/2023)

Katherine Nagasawa: So today is April 10th, 2023 and this oral history is being recorded digitally over Zoom. The interviewer-- the interviewers are Katherine Nagasawa and Mary Doi and the interviewee is Gordon Yoshikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So Gordon, I wanted to just start by talking a little bit more about your early involvement in the JACL. So could you talk about when you first became involved in the Cincinnati JACL?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess I, I first joined JACL in Cincinnati in 1965 or 4. My, my sister was co-chair of the Cincinnati chapter in 1965 so that sort of 00:01:00got me involved. Up to that point I didn't do too much with the JACL at all.

Katherine Nagasawa: And when you joined, what was the makeup of the chapter in terms of generational breakdown and age, gender?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Age wise, I guess it's a little bit older I guess because it's the people that had come to Cincinnati after evacuation. So that was the bulk of the membership. And they had children but the children were, at that time too young really to participate.

Katherine Nagasawa: And beyond your sister, did any other family members get 00:02:00involved in JACL?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I had two, two sisters. Two sisters were involved, the brothers were not. But the one, one sister was working with the YWCA but she didn't get too involved with the chapter itself, you know, basically as a member.

Katherine Nagasawa: And I remember you mentioned to me when we talked that you were actually chapter president pretty early on. Can you talk about that as well?

Gordon Yoshikawa: (laughs) When I joined in '65, I guess probably the year after I had joined, I became president of the chapter. So they're always looking for new blood for the chapter. And I became president again about 10 years later. So 00:03:00I'm sort of lucky 'cause I only served as president twice, whereas some of the other members served maybe four or five years at a time. So it's getting almost to that point again because there are fewer members and as a result the, the officers that are in right now tend to have to stay in a little bit longer than they had anticipated.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you think you'll take another rotation as president?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Probably not at this point, so-- Although can't pass it up. One never knows. But most likely not.

Katherine Nagasawa: I also wanted to ask about some of your early recollections of the redress movement. Do you remember around when you first heard about it and what your reaction to it was?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, the redress movement I guess as I was going to JACL national conventions, I heard some rumbles in, in the late seventies that there was something going on with redress and it eventually became more organized and the redress movement sort of took off probably from 19-, I guess '79 or '80. And then they started formalizing some of the organizational activities. And once 00:05:00the commission was formed and had hearings, then we had a legislative education committee formed. So then that, that started the support group for the redress.

Katherine Nagasawa: What was your reaction to the idea of asking for redress and reparations? Do you remember, at the JACL convention where you heard about it, what you thought?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I think the average member probably would be for it since they, their parents or friends you know had undergone hardship when the evacuation occurred. But I guess on a personal level, you're not quite sure how 00:06:00you want to do this and whether this will be successful or not. But you are hoping that, that something along this line would take place at some point.

Katherine Nagasawa: Within your family, did you talk openly about the camp experience?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Not in my family and probably not in 95% of other families. Between 1945 when we left camp until the redress movement started in, in the late seventies, they probably didn't speak about evacuation, hardship, the 00:07:00losses, at that time. I think the redress movement and the hearings that started up in the late seventies then started bringing people out more. I had a brother, my sister's brother-in-law who was in MIS during the war. Of course after serving in MIS then they're not really allowed to talk about it. But even then, on a family basis he didn't speak about it to family members either. And there was some, I guess, activity in regards to public getting interested in it. And the public radio station had contacted me. I guess over the years they would, 00:08:00around December 7th they would start contacting people who had been evacuated and they would talk about their stories. And the public radio had contacted me and I talked to my brother, my sister's brother-in-law, and whether he would be willing to speak with the public radio and he agreed to do it. And this is the first time that he would openly speak about it to anybody. So it was an amazing time when people were just starting to be able to say something or be able to talk about their experiences, whether it was good or bad.

Katherine Nagasawa: During the redress movement, do you feel like the other Cincinnati JACL chapter members started opening up more? The people who were the core group that was involved? Were they more forthcoming?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I think they were because the people that would organize the chapters were about the same age group and they had all undergone evacuation so they would start talking about it a little bit. But usually back then the conversation was usually "What camp were you in?" and they would maybe talk about family and activities, things along that line, but they would probably not 00:10:00talk about the detrimental effects of evacuation unless it really bothered them a lot. But usually it's all the, the general stuff of where were you.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember when you first heard that the Chicago Commission hearings were happening in 1981? And how did your chapter identify representatives to testify?

Gordon Yoshikawa: We didn't have anybody that I recall from the Cincinnati Chapter testify. I was part of the Midwest District JACL so I knew some of the people that were going to speak. I had gone up to Chicago with Mas Yamasaki from 00:11:00Dayton Chapter and he was one that was going to speak early on at the hearing. Later on I had heard that Hank Tanaka from Cleveland had spoken, Masa Tashima also from Cleveland and Hank Tanaka from Cleveland. And I knew Kaz Mayeda, Kaz Mayeda had been involved in the redress movement early on. He had been MDC governor and I, I happened to know him through playing golf so.

Katherine Nagasawa: I think you also remember mentioning, or you, you mentioned to me Toaru Ishiyama and then Tom Nakao Jr. right? They're both from Ohio, I think.

Gordon Yoshikawa: I had heard that, that Tom Nakao Jr. had testified, same way with Toaru. Toaru is, was a professor and he was very articulate and a lot of times his, his talks were a little bit over your head, but, but that's the way he was. He was a plain guy because he'd be there in, in jeans or, or something like that, very casual. I was watching the hearings and I watched Toaru's statement that he had given and talked about. You know, usually he's sort of 00:13:00grubby and he had to find a suit for the hearing. So, but he's a very interesting guy and you get uplifted every time you get together with him. But the hearing website is very nice because you get to see the people that you used to know in sort of real time at that time. And it was nice to see Kaz when he was a bit younger and to see Toaru since he had long passed. And I guess I'll try to watch some of the others. I watched the interview with Chiye Tomihiro 00:14:00from Chicago. So I'll probably look to see who else that I know and then find out a little bit more about what they had endured. But the evacuation sort of hits a lot of people a lot of different ways. I remember speaking with a former president of Dayton Chapter. And she talked about her mother, how devastated she was, when she had to be evacuated and you had little time to process your, your belongings. And she had things that she couldn't take with her like kimono and 00:15:00rather than to just let it get into disrepair or into somebody's hand that wouldn't respect it, she burned it. So you have a lot of extreme reactions to what was going on with evacuation.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I think that's the thing I love the most about listening to all the testimonies, is just the diversity of experience that's conveyed through all those individual stories. And like you said, it's, it's almost as if people are frozen in time. It's very different to watch it on video instead of just to listen to audio of it. So I'm so happy they have the videos. They actually didn't know where the, the cassettes were for many years but only recently discovered them and digitized them. So I'm so glad you were able to watch them before our conversation.

Gordon Yoshikawa: I had heard that there was audio because I figured they would 00:16:00tape record the entire proceeding. So I was pleasantly surprised to know that there was video to go along with it.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I was curious, did you ever consider testifying yourself when they did a call-out for participants?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Not myself, because I was too young when I came out. So I was seven years old when I went into camp, 10 years old when I was released. So there isn't too much in the way of, of my testifying. Might've been different if I had spoken to my parents. Never did talk about the evacuation and the effect that had on my parents. And I know that it would've been very, very difficult 00:17:00for them, although they really don't show it. But the fact that when in camp they had the questionnaire which bothered many people. They had answered "Yes, yes", to keep the family together and to be able to get out of camp. But in doing so, they were relinquishing their Japanese citizenship. Which means that they now had no country that they belonged to because up until 1952 the Japanese were not allowed to become U.S. citizens. So they didn't know at the time so they couldn't have predicted that they could wait and then become citizens at 00:18:00that time. So they were, I guess under extreme pressure and they just decided to do family first.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember anything about the journey that you and Mas Yamasaki took to Chicago? You said you guys drove together. Do you remember where you stayed and who you coordinated with from Chicago around the hearing?

Gordon Yoshikawa: No. Our family sort of went out piecemeal. In 1943 when we were in Tule Lake, California, my brother, oldest brother, had gone into the army. My second sister had gotten a contact, gotten a job in Cincinnati with the 00:19:00YWCA. So if you were able to get a job outside or have families of friends to support you outside or go to school, go to a university, then you could leave camp. So in early part of '43 she left and came to Cincinnati to work for the YWCA here. So once she was established here, then my oldest sister came to Cincinnati and got a job here. And then in probably 1944, my older brother left Topaz and came to Cincinnati to continue his high school education. So usually 00:20:00in the camps were the parents and young children. So it wasn't until May of 1945 that my parents and I were able to leave Topaz, Utah where we had transferred from Tule Lake in 1943. So in May of 1945, then we were able to come out. And it's the usual $25 and a train ticket. And we took the train from, I guess Delta, Utah, eventually to Chicago. And we had stopped and saw some friends in 00:21:00Chicago and then proceeded on down to Cincinnati. But I don't really remember that much about the train trip. Even when we went from Marysville, California to Tule Lake, I knew that after the fact that we had gone by train and then by army trucks into the camp. So that's sort of the extent of the travels.

Katherine Nagasawa: And it was mostly your older siblings who put down roots in Cincinnati first before you ended up joining them?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, it was my sister that had come out to work at the YWCA that prompted everybody else to come to Cincinnati. So Cincinnati also had a 00:22:00hostel which she didn't stay at. But it was sort of a center point for people who had evacuated and come, who had then come out of camps to settle down with a job and a temporary home, eventually a permanent home.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I'm curious, did any of those sisters or did your brother end up attending the Chicago redress hearings at all? Or was it just you and your family that went?

Gordon Yoshikawa: It was... Let's see. I went up with Mas Yamasaki and I think (not able to make out name) who was at one point in time, president of, of the Cincinnati chapter. But there was only a few of us who had gone up. I don't 00:23:00remember my sister Frances going up with me, so, so I guess it was just a handful of us.

Katherine Nagasawa: And I want to just get a sense of what your experience was like at the hearings themselves. What sort of memories stand out to you when you go back to that? You know, I guess it was two days that you spent at Northeastern.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, it was two days. And I remember hearing some of it, but it really didn't sink in. That's why the, the videos that you have that we can go back to and watch now are so impressive. That you saw people who were able to articulate, basically, for their parents and for their family, the conditions 00:24:00and situations, about that time.

Katherine Nagasawa: When we talked on the phone, you did say that there was an emotional atmosphere in the room. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by that?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, the emotional factor that I was thinking about really was at the signing of the Civil Liberties Act, 1988. The atmosphere at the hearings, I guess, were a lot different because this is where people are pouring out their stories, so the emotional charge is different. And you hear all, all the sad stories, the difficulties that the parents had, the fact that a lot of 00:25:00them lost members of the family. So it's much, much different situation. So from the back, it, it was sort of hard to catch all of it, but I remember some of the people speaking. And we really get, didn't get that much content at the time. And that's why I was interested in, in the audio. That's why I'm so glad that the video is available now. So I'm hoping that, that members of JACL will get, you know take the opportunity to look at the videos and see what was really going on in, in 1980 or '70 something. So...

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any conversations you had with Mas about his testimony since you guys went to Chicago together and you kind of accompanied him for this experience?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Didn't really talk about it. So that's why I was interested in seeing what his testimony would be. And, and it seems like most of his testimony had to do with the emotional trauma that everybody went through. And whether it was their own trauma or whether it was their parents', it just seemed to be universal that everybody really went through a great deal of trauma, emotional trauma. And as a youngster growing up, you know, you don't see any of that. So 00:27:00as kids, we're at camp. Did kid things. So it wasn't much of an effect on them. But I remember, I guess John Tani was speaking about some of the, the breakdown of family because when we got to camp, the, the nuclear family sort of fell apart. Because, I guess usually at mess hall the kids would eat together, the youngsters would eat together. And that, that left the parents sort of eating by themselves. And, and the whole dynamic changed.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's true, where kids were much more separated from parents maybe outside of where they slept in the barracks.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah.

Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to ask more about the years after the hearings where you were part of the legislative education committee and doing a lot of fundraising work. Can you talk about your role in that and also the role that Grace Uehara played in that committee?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, once the hearings were over, then you had the legislative education committee that was trying to, to get money so that they could take this through Congress and have the reparations come to life. JACL would try to get all the chapters to take part in getting funds together for 00:29:00that. And the legislative education committee that Grace Uehara had chaired from Philadelphia was really the focal point of the activities that Redress would do at that time. She would put together sample letters for support to the congresspeople, congressmen, and senators. She would pinpoint the people on certain committees that we should try to contact and persuade them to help us in, in the Redress effort. Let's see, she did quite a bit of that. So through 00:30:00her efforts there was a unified effort to, to get the Redress going in Congress.

Katherine Nagasawa: In what ways did she stay in touch with all of the chapters? Did she correspond... I guess what was her communication method for coordinating all of this?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, she was doing like alerts all the time. So if there was some congressional get together or some activity on that, then she would send out these alerts. So you would contact your, your state congresspeople and try 00:31:00to get them to vote your way. So she was always on that, and so you just had to wait until she, she sends you a letter and, and tells you... Well, she even would find out who you should be contacting because she would know what committees are doing what. So she would do that, send letter-- example letters, and that helped a great deal because you know you sit down and you don't really know what to write or what to say to be more convincing. So she would give you some examples. You just follow that and it seemed to get pretty good results. She would also give you phone numbers so that if you sort of inundated your 00:32:00congresspeople with letters and phone calls, then that would affect what they're going to do.

Katherine Nagasawa: Beyond writing letters and calling the congresspeople, did you ever have in-person meetings with any of them? Where you kind of lobbied on behalf of the community?

Gordon Yoshikawa: We had talk with local congresspeople because my sister would go to some of the town hall meetings. And when she would do that then she would talk to the congresspeople about the Redress efforts. Just to let them know what it is so that then they can take a look at it and, and see for themselves whether they want to get interested in it or not. So I guess my sister did most, 00:33:00most of that, so that worked out well.

Katherine Nagasawa: When you think about the core people in Cincinnati who were involved in this lobbying process, who besides you and your sister were doing this kind of work that you can remember?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, we had a number of people that were chapter Redress chair at one time or another. And some of the names that come to mind are Betty Breyer, Jo Okura, Tak Kuriya, Stogie Toki, Fred Morioka. I think these people all took turns in doing the Redress effort.

Katherine Nagasawa: Are any of these folks still alive?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I guess the only person left is Betty Breyer. All the other ones have passed on.

Katherine Nagasawa: I'd be curious to, to talk to her about her experience just because it's true that you know a lot of people have, have passed.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, she never went to camp. She was born in Cincinnati in the mid '40s. She's also--

Katherine Nagasawa: Is she technically a Sansei then?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Pardon?

Katherine Nagasawa: Is she technically a Sansei then or is she Nisei?

Gordon Yoshikawa: She's really a Nisei because her parents are Issei. She's also a cousin of Tonko Doi. So if you know Tonko, there's the six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

Mary Doi: Yes, yes.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Because she met a fellow that was one of the orphans in Manzanar. And she says, "I bet we're related." And in a roundabout way she was.

Katherine Nagasawa: Wow.

Gordon Yoshikawa: He was the, he was a nephew of my sister. So through all that she was right. She, she is connected with him.

Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, I know you had a question about how the different Ohio chapters communicated during this time too. Did you want to ask it?

Mary Doi: Right. It, it just seems like, and for example, in the state of Illinois, I think there's the Chicago chapter. In Michigan, there's the Detroit 00:36:00chapter, but Ohio seems to have, because probably a lot of small towns, a lot of chapters. So we hear about Cleveland, we hear about Dayton, we hear about Cincinnati. Do you, do the chapters communicate closely or are you autonomous, or how does that--

Gordon Yoshikawa: They used to be closer, but Cleveland being where they are, we don't get in contact with them that often. It used to be more in the past, not as much now. We still stay in touch with Dayton quite a bit because we'll have, we're only like 50 miles away from each other. So we'll have joint installation dinners. So we recently had a joint installation dinner. So the contact still is, is pretty close. Dayton has a summer picnic, which a number of the 00:37:00Cincinnati people go to. Sometimes I guess before the pandemic, Hoosier chapter from Indianapolis, some of the members used to come over to the Dayton picnic also. It seems to be a little less so now I think because of age but they used to come over. But I think between Cincinnati and Dayton, there's still a closeness because as the small-- chapters get smaller then doing joint things help keep the numbers there. They still do a international festival. And it's probably getting harder because their numbers are going down. But Cincinnati 00:38:00used to do the same thing, but they've discontinued the festival.

Mary Doi: Related to this, you know I'd, I'd say that a lot of the Chicago activities might now especially center around civil rights as opposed to culture. Would you say that the Cincinnati chapter, the Dayton chapter, because the numbers are dwindling, maybe didn't pick up the civil rights movement of the... Oh well, I only know Chicago, of the Chicago way rather than... I don't think Chicago focuses that much on cultural events that it's really much more of a civil rights organization. How would you characterize Cincinnati, Dayton, Cleveland that way?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess MDC gets involved with civil rights more than 00:39:00Cincinnati would by itself. So Cincinnati would support the activities of MDC as it does. So we recently had a shooting at a Japanese food store, but luckily no one got hurt. But there was a fellow who seemed to be a little mentally deranged who had fired a number of shots into the store. And he was spouting off a number of things, which didn't make any sense. Luckily to his right was a Chinese restaurant that had about nine customers inside at the time, and he did not fire into that establishment. So they were very lucky and the police came right away 00:40:00and took him away. And I don't know that there's going to be too much being done about that because of his mental state. So it's sort of unfortunate for, for them, but I think one of the members of the Japan America Society had started a GoFundMe for the Japanese store to help take care of damages and loss of business. So I'm hoping that it's still going okay, I haven't talked with them in a while so I don't know.

Mary Doi: Was this in Cincinnati?

Gordon Yoshikawa: This was in Cincinnati.

Mary Doi: Okay. Did it seem at all related to COVID or was this just a, possibly a racist rant that had nothing to do with the time of COVID?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I don't think it had anything to do with COVID. I don't know... They couldn't say that it had anything to do with race particularly, because he was just ranting all sorts of things.

Mary Doi: Okay.

Katherine Nagasawa: Kind of going back to Mary's earlier question about how the chapters communicated, how did you hear news about Redress you know, from Chicago? Did you exchange letters and being part of the Midwest District Council also, what was the main form of communication between those chapters?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, Midwest District has district meetings periodically. You get maybe some correspondence from Bill Yoshino who was the Midwest District 00:42:00Regional... I forgot his title now. But we would hear from Bill Yoshino fairly often when things needed to be done on a district level. So we, we, I guess through the district meetings, they would get to know what the other chapters are doing.

Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to make sure we asked you about your experience attending the signing of the Civil Liberties Act in 1988. Can you tell us the whole story you know from you being at the JACL convention on the West Coast and then being called to attend?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, that was, that was really a nice experience. This is going back to early August 1988 JACL, National JACL had a convention in Seattle. And we were told early on in the meeting that there might be a signing of the Redress bill, possibly the 11th or so of August. And the convention started around the 6th of August. So on the 8th of August I think, they said the bill's going to be signed and the, I guess the LEC had gone over a list of names of 00:44:00people who would be asked to go to the signing or be available if they wanted to. So they had a, I think, a list in JACL, maybe a couple of hundred people and they were cutting the numbers down. And, and at the convention they were down to maybe 50 names or so. And I found out that my sister and I who were representing, would be representing Cincinnati chapter. She was there in Seattle as a booster. So she was not at the meeting when, when the announcements were made. So I knew that she would want to go. So we were told to make arrangements 00:45:00with the travel agency in, in Seattle who was going to handle all this for us. And we were trying to get hold of my sister who was visiting Caroll Nursing I think at the time. And it was hard getting hold of her because all the phones were being used to make arrangements and, and no cell phones back then. So we had to wait and try to track her down, finally did. And we made travel arrangements and then that evening we went to the airport around 8:30 and I 00:46:00guess there were... They had selected like 50 names. I don't remember being that many people there, so I don't know if, if all of them were able to, to make that arrangement or not. But there must have been at least 30, because we were all sitting there waiting to, to go. So we, the travel agent set up a bus for us to go to the airport in, and from the airport, I think we went to Salt Lake City first, and then to Atlanta, and then from Atlanta, we were going to DC. So we're, I guess, in Atlanta late at night, because we left Seattle I guess around 00:47:008:30. And so we must have gotten to Atlanta early in the morning and I think we took like a 6:30 flight from Atlanta to DC. So once we got to DC, then we have to sort of get cleaned up, shave and, and change clothes, go from travel clothes to more presentable clothes, and then take cabs. But we had time, well, we went and they had set up breakfast or brunch for us, so we did that. But then we had time between that and the signing. Signing was going to be like 2:30 in the 00:48:00afternoon, and it was supposed to be in the Rose Garden, but it was August, it was 90 degrees or so in DC. So they changed it to, I think, Rayburn Executive Building or something. So we had time between the luncheon and the signing. So my sister and I went to see Willis Gradison, who was in the House of Representatives from Cincinnati, and she had attended a number of his town meetings, so she knew him. So we're able to go over and meet with him. There were two senators, John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum, but we didn't have time to 00:49:00get together with them. So at least we got to see the congressman, and we went over to the Rayburn building to get ready for the signing. So it was a room with a small stage. You had TV cameras in the back, photographers in the back and seating for, for us. So there was a lot of buzzing, a lot of talking going on. You can feel the electricity in the air. And so that was a great experience, and I remember Patty Saiki and some other, I think Bob Matsui and some other people 00:50:00around the table on stage. And at 2:30 then President Reagan came in and said, I guess, basically, "Let's get to it." But he said, "We gather here to right a wrong." And he sat down and, and signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which then gave us the apology and the reparation for redress. So that was a nice experience.

Katherine Nagasawa: What were the conversations like afterwards? Who else was 00:51:00there that you remember besides your sister?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess people that we were on the plane with. I knew George Sakaguchi from, from St. Louis pretty well. We also golfed. And so I guess everybody's congratulating each other and, and sort of soaking in the moment. I think I had gotten some postcards to send to different people about the occasion and to get it stamped for August 10th, 1988. So I hope people kept, kept those.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you know if anybody... Do you have a postcard that you may have sent your family?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I looked around and I did not find one, so I don't know. I can't remember who I sent them to, either. So, I'm hoping somebody still has it, anyway.

Katherine Nagasawa: When you were in the room that day and you saw President Reagan signing the legislation, how did it feel for you to see the culmination of more than a decade of effort?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, you knew it was a historical moment, so to be part of that was really gratifying. To, to know that this is what should have happened for your parents, and that it's too bad that many of the parents probably were not still alive at the time, and that really is a shame.

Katherine Nagasawa: I know you mentioned to me that your parents were not alive to receive their redress checks, but you know, you and your siblings did. Can you talk about what you ended up doing with your redress check?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess we were married for about 10 years at that time, and I think we just put the money in the bank. I don't remember doing anything else with it. I guess there was talk about donating it back to JACL, but we figured we would do that through normal donations and, and our activity and, and doing other things for JACL.

Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what you did with the presidential apology letter?

Gordon Yoshikawa: It's still around. It's, it's a mass printed thing, so it's 00:54:00not as, as indicative as if it would've been individually signed. But it's, well, it was signed by Bush, though, and the signature is such that you can't really read the name, but you knew who it was. So I don't know.

Katherine Nagasawa: One of the things you said earlier was that the redress movement really opened up the community to sharing more stories about camp and the hardships experienced. Within Cincinnati, can you talk about how redress changed the community and you know some of the work you've done yourself to educate the community around Japanese American incarceration?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I think what it really did was it, it opened up the memories of the people that had gone through evacuation. And I think I tried to put some of that in, into the newsletter. I had talked with some of the men that were part of MIS, and I did a series on, on that. So there were about three or four people who had taken part of MIS. Tried to talk to more, but I don't know that I did. But I think anybody that, that we had interview... I did a number of interviews of chapter members and I'm not sure where the tapes are right now, 00:56:00but I had talked to them about their experience then, and quite a number of them do not remember the details of going from home to assembly center or to camp. They might have a little more recollection of the trip from camp to Cincinnati. But I think I had charted the, the people that were here from camp, and I think I only had one from, from Wyoming, and maybe one from Idaho. Bulk of them were 00:57:00Tule Lake, Topaz, Rohwer. We're going to Rohwer, and next month they have a pilgrimage going on early next month.

Mary Doi: I'm going to be there too. I'll meet you there.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh, okay. That's great. Because I'm taking my cousin Betty Breyer down there. Her cousins, well Tonko and her family were down there, and so I wanted her to be able to speak to people about their experiences, since Betty was born in Cincinnati, so she doesn't have that information in her mind. So this will help put it in perspective and maybe we'll hear a lot of stories. 00:58:00But my late wife used to get ticked off at George Takei because she would tell him about playing around with pollywogs, and eventually I think the pollywogs became part of his memories too.

Mary Doi: Oh, oh!

Gordon Yoshikawa: But, but I guess we'd run into George Takei several times, because his, he had come to speak to the Dayton chapter at a joint installation dinner. He had come to Cincinnati to do a narrative on Star Wars with the Symphony Orchestra, and during that time, they had invited a number of us, given us tickets to the, to that presentation. So we had met, met him in the Green 00:59:00Room and, and everybody's taking pictures with him and the Pops conductor sees this group of people in there, so he comes in and he talks to everybody. So everybody's taking pictures with George. But it's good though. George does a good job of talking about the internment, and I looked at his book, sort of the comic book version, which was interesting. And of course, we've seen him in, in a number of stage presentations. So he brings the story out there. So that's, that's good for him. Good for us.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's true. And using different mediums, too. Like doing it in a graphic novel or comic format is a different way to get the story out to you know, readers who are more visual, or kids.

Mary Doi: Right.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, any way you can is good.

Katherine Nagasawa: I was curious, you know, you had mentioned you did interviews with people in Cincinnati who had resettled. Was that a personal project, or was that part of an oral history effort from the JACL?

Gordon Yoshikawa: It was really a local history effort, and some of the, the histories of the people in Cincinnati I had put in the newsletter, I had hoped to be able to be able to have the videos on a borrowing basis so that people might see what other people had experienced. But I haven't been able to find them lately. So I'll have to look again.

Katherine Nagasawa: It would be wonderful to digitize those and make them available. I feel like you know that's invaluable what you were able to capture.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I had gone from--

Katherine Nagasawa: People are passing away who you know, remember the camp.

Gordon Yoshikawa: I had gone from the old tapes to, I had them transferred to DVDs, but then I can't find the DVDs, so it doesn't do too much good, but at least I have the old tapes, so if I have to, I could redo them.

Mary Doi: Right and I, so I worked on something with the museum, the Japanese American National Museum where everything that we did was on digital videotape. That's what the videographers recorded. Then we made VHS tapes. I don't know if Kat knows what those were, but VHS tapes. You know, and so even if you could 01:02:00find your VHS tape, you can't play it anymore. You know?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I can, because I still have the VHS player.

Mary Doi: Well, you're smart. Most people don't.

Gordon Yoshikawa: I imagine it still works. So if that is the case then-- Same way with some of the tapes that I would do. I keep the, the video camera so even though they're not around anymore, hopefully if I can re-energize the batteries, then I can still bring it back to life. So...

Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. So, well, so what I did was I actually ask people at the museum to take the digital videotape that we recorded in 1995 or whatever and make it, put it in the cloud. And I'm not even really sure what that means, but 01:03:00available to people now who don't have the VHS machine anymore or you know, a camera. So I feel your pain. I know exactly what it's like to have something that you can't play, but it's great information.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, but you know, if you still have the VHS, you can find a place that'll transfer it for you.

Mary Doi: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Do you have copies of the newsletter that you might be able to share where you did do some of these, talk about the interviews you did?

Gordon Yoshikawa: I'll see if I can dig up some.

Mary Doi: That'd be great.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, because I keep better track of my... I do golf newsletters, so every time we, our group goes out and plays golf, I put out a newsletter. And so I've been better with that. With the JACL ones, they sort of 01:04:00get pitched in a corner, and, and they're out of sequence and I'm not sure if they're all there. But, so I'll take a look and see about the interviews. I, I'm pretty sure I have the interviews of the three or four men that were in MIS. And then I, I was doing a series on, on the Issei, and I had done some interviews and stories for the newsletter on that. So I'll, I'll see if those are available too.

Katherine Nagasawa: That would be amazing. Yeah. And Mary, Gordon did write 01:05:00about his experience attending the signing of the Civil Liberties Act around the time when it happened. So he said he--

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, I sent that one to you.

Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, nice. Thank you. I was trying to look it up but-- I think finally, I just wanted to hear a bit about your own experience speaking your, you know about Japanese American incarceration to the public. You said the two people who normally spoke to the newspapers or the churches or schools passed away not too long ago, and you've sort of taken that up as your own responsibility now. Can you talk about that?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. Over the years, there's always been other people that, that would talk to the schools and organizations about the evacuation experience. And all of a sudden, I looked around and they're not there anymore. So I figured, well, I guess it's my turn to do this. And I think I mentioned 01:06:00that one of the first ones that I did was at a public library. And so I did maybe an hour plus presentation with some slides. And I think that was now on YouTube, so it might be available. When I tried to speak... Well I had, I was invited to speak to sixth grade Japanese language school students. And I didn't know that, if they would be able to... I guess they're, they're... They speak English mostly, so they would be able to understand it. But when I was supposed to give that presentation, there was a death in our, in our family, and I 01:07:00couldn't make it, so I gave it to the president of the chapter who was from Japan, and I gave him the, the text of my talk, and I'm sure that he probably rewrote it to Japanese so that he could just speak to the students. So at a later time, I had an opportunity to talk to the sixth grade class, and I thought in order to do this, I would like to speak to them in Japanese, which I wasn't able to at the time, but I thought maybe I'll write it in romaji. So I had my friend translate it to romaji and then I would read that and then try to make it 01:08:00smooth enough that it would sound like I knew what I was saying. So I told the students that I do not speak Japanese, but I wrote this in, in romaji and I will read it. So I read it, and they seem to absorb it pretty well. Later on, there was a, a annual thing at the Japanese language school, and each grade would present something that they had done or learned throughout the year. And the sixth grade group did my presentation with slides, and I guess there were maybe six or eight kids and they all had a short speaking part and they would cover 01:09:00part of what I had said. So I was just blown away that they would do this. And so I had told teacher that I was really impressed with what they were able to do. That wasn't the end of it, they did like woodcarving except on linoleum and they put together some pictures. And one was when Kazuya Sato and I were speaking to the group at the presentation. Someone had taken a picture. They took that and they did a wood, a woodcut carving of that. And then, they had a couple other scenes in there. And one of the scenes was the row of toilets that 01:10:00in camp you had toilets one next to each other with no partition, at least in the men's side. And that was part of the woodcut print too. So I guess that's something that impressed them. And then there was the third part, which I don't remember right now, but they did this woodcut print that was like maybe 12 to 18 inches by three feet.

Mary Doi: That's gigantic. Wow.

Gordon Yoshikawa: And they presented that to me later, at a later time and I was blown away again because I can't imagine the kids doing that in addition to the presentation that they had done. So it, it just really impressed me that the kids are really smart. So it was a fun thing and it was a nice, nice gift to get 01:11:00was that print.

Katherine Nagasawa: That's amazing. And I know that you, you mentioned to me that it wasn't just young students you've given this presentation to. That some of your golfing buddies who are in their 80s has, have also heard your story.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. I've given it at a number of different places and my golfing friends had come to one of the presentations and it's a story that they weren't aware of at the time. So I've given it in Cincinnati. I've given it in Indianapolis. And, let's see. Well that could be basically it. And I did a short version in Dayton, but whenever the opportunity presents itself then I, I try to 01:12:00do that. I think I still owe one person a presentation. So, I guess it'll still go on for a little bit anyway.

Mary Doi: Let me know the next time you do it. I would love to come and hear you.

Gordon Yoshikawa: I'll, I'll see if I can find the YouTube one.

Mary Doi: Oh, okay. That would be great.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I'll look that one up. Yeah.

Gordon Yoshikawa: It might still be out there. But that's one that I think I had done at a public library and somebody had recorded it. So, we'll see how that goes. (laughs)

Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to wind down with a couple of last reflection questions. Mary, did you want to chime in with some of your bigger picture 01:13:00questions about the Redress Movement's legacy?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Say that again?

Mary Doi: She's asking if I want to ask any questions.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh!

Mary Doi: So this is a little bit maybe off target, but when you talked about attending the hearings, you said that it, the, maybe the emotional weight didn't sink in, something didn't sink in when you're actually sitting in the room hearing the testimony. And that when you are able to, what I heard was that when you were able to watch the actual videos, you were able to now also as an older person sort of, sort of grasp maybe the, the impact of what is being said.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, I think that's true.

Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Because when you're at the hearing, we're like way at the back of the, back of the room, so the, the sound isn't all that great.

Mary Doi: Mmm, okay.

Gordon Yoshikawa: So you know what's going on, you know the, the emotions that are going on, but you don't hear words that much. I remember hearing Studs Terkel speak, but I don't remember what he said. I can probably look at the video and, and go over it and hear it again. But I think being there is, is a little bit different on an emotional level. You know what's going on. You know it's a, also a historic thing going on and you know some of the people that are speaking. And so that's, that's an experience to sort of soak up. But with the 01:15:00availability of the video then you can go back and see people in, in real time at that time and, and hear them speak about their, their experience. That's, that's really nice to have, the fact that you weren't really that close to it at the time. It'd be different if you were able to sit on the, the table where, where the committee was and you can hear it and you can soak it in that way, but from the back of the room it doesn't have the same impact. So you know things are going on. But with the availability of the video, it's really nice to see 01:16:00old friends speaking and hearing what their experience and their concerns were at the time. And people aren't really angry, but they do show concern that what their parents and what they went through at the time was really devastating. And you're able to see the, the committee people hear this for the first time and start soaking in all these experiences. And I'm glad that they were able to do that and then act on, on the presentations and went forth with the redress.

Mary Doi: One of the questions I'm really interested in, and this is a more recent question, thinking about you know, the Civil Liberties Act is signed in 1988, the apologies go out, the money goes out. But are you, do you feel repaired for the wrong that was done to you and your family? My big question is what does repair look like? And can the government only do so much in, in facilitating repair? And if that's the case, what else needs to happen or is that enough for repair?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, going from the end of that, I don't know if that's enough and I don't know what they can do to make things any better because most of the people who has had damage done to them are no longer here. And you don't know what their emotions were and what their feelings were at that time. You 01:18:00know it must've been devastating for them to be yanked out, lose their livelihood, find out that the government thinks you are the enemy. All these things going on. I don't know that there's, anything that can be done or that should have been done back then. Now it, it's really too late for the people that, that experienced it. But the only thing that you can do is keep the information going so that people will know that this happened, really happened in the United States. I haven't checked on current history books to see what 01:19:00they cover and how much they cover. I'm sure that at one point they started to include more and more, but then it may have sort of drifted back down to sort of a blip in, in time and that would be a sad thing. So whenever Pearl Harbor comes up, then internment and American concentration camps should also come up. And a lot of times the, the newspaper people would, would bring that up at that time. But then I think they should, they should be doing a little bit more. I had 01:20:00spoken to a high school book club. And this was I guess during COVID because we were all wearing masks. I had no idea what they looked like. But, but I had asked the, the kids, "Had you heard about evacuation?" And surprisingly over half had heard about it. And I would not have expected that because I don't know that adults my age know about it. So if they haven't come in contact with somebody that experienced it and talked about it, then they would be oblivious to that hadn't taken place. So, so education is really important.

Mary Doi: You know I, I loved your story about the Japanese-speaking kids. Was that a Futabakai school, the, the Japanese language kind of school. And how they not only heard your story but sort of absorbed your story to tell it themselves and to illustrate it even. And to me that's a wonderful story about... It's almost like a story about repair that while you may not be there to carry on the story, maybe these kids who speak Japanese will be one of the narrators of the history. You know?

Gordon Yoshikawa: That could be, yeah.

Mary Doi: One of the things you probably will hear about at the Rohwer pilgrimage, this is a concept that's new to me, is the idea of intergenerational trauma. So even though you experienced it, I'm a little bit younger. And so I was born in the '50s, I didn't experience it and certainly my grand-- my 01:22:00daughter who's now in her 30s didn't experience it. But for this youngest generation they talk about in-- they talk about intergenerational trauma that they've sort of inherited from me who inherited it from my parents and maybe my grandparents. So that's a whole new set of ideas that you will probably hear about at the Rohwer pilgrimage, which means that you may also be experienced... You may be offered something called these intergenerational dialogue sessions. And I hope you signed up, I hope your cousin signed up for it because it really does refocus how I started to think about internment and its afterlife. And that you didn't have to be there to actually be affected by it. You know and, and I could say, "Well, my parents were there, of course I was affected by it because my parents and grandparents were there." But for my daughter's generation, it really, it, it is, it is like, it's, it's the thing that that's the way they 01:23:00understand camp, they understand it through this lens of intergenerational trauma. So maybe you'll hear more about that when we go to Rohwer, you know but I, I think that's interesting how each generation is telling the story in a different perspective, from a different perspective. With a different lens with maybe more, yeah, just a different lens.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. I think people that were just around my sister's age, which is maybe another 10, 15 years beyond mine, a lot of the people that age that I spoke with, weren't angry. I think they were upset, but they weren't angry. And they really didn't talk about that in, in those terms. You know they 01:24:00would talk about the evacuation, talk about the ride on the train. And it might've been uncomfortable. There were soldiers with rifles and bayonets, but it's something they see and say, "Oh, there it is." And it wouldn't really affect them that adversely at, at that time. And they didn't seem to be that affected by that when I spoke with them. So I don't know whether part of that is more deep down. I'm sure that, that they would be angry at, had that taken effect at that time. And that they missed a lot of opportunities that they could 01:25:00have, had basically educationally and all that. But I'm really sorry that I haven't, I didn't get my parents to talk about it. And I think that's the case with a lot of, of parents, they're busy bringing up their kids. It's post-evacuation, education is the main goal. And really don't have time to talk about this. And that's a shame that we miss some of that because I, I think the kids that were growing up at the time should have heard what their parents felt and what they went through. So that's my biggest regret.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. That there was so much silence within families, but it does seem like the redress movement made way for so much more openness, at least within subsequent generations. So--

Gordon Yoshikawa: Redress was a good thing because it broke open the silence. And people started talking about not just what camp were you in, but what were your experiences, you know? And it, it got beyond just the surface talk. So, however it came about, it's a good thing that it happened.

Katherine Nagasawa: Awesome. Well, I do feel like that might be a good place to end our conversation today. I just had one clarifying question because you 01:27:00talked about your, the older sister who was involved in JACL and who went to the signing of the Civil Liberties Act with you. What was her, what's her full name just so we have it?

Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh, her name is Frances Yoshikawa Tojo.

Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, gotcha. And Mary, did you have any other last questions before we close out?

Mary Doi: I don't think so. And I, if I do, I'm going to ask him, I'm going to ask you at the Rohwer pilgrimage.

Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, that's wonderful that you'll be able to meet in person.

Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. This will be my daughter and my, our second time to go. Last time we went it poured, it absolutely poured and you know, bring rain gear. We got out of the bus at Rohwer and because there's this little cemetery there, but Rohwer is actually in a soybean field. So you know, when it's pouring you can't really do much because it's mud. But it was really a good illustration for 01:28:00me because that's where my family was on both sides, they were at Rohwer. And so, you know, you talk about sandstorms in some places and freezing rain in other... Freezing winters, but Rohwer's got mud, you know?

Katherine Nagasawa: Very swampy, right?

Mary Doi: Yeah. It's swampy. And the town, we'll go to McGehee, which is where there's a delightful little museum and maybe George Takei will be there because it'll be the 10th anniversary.

Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh, he might be.

Mary Doi: But the museum is also just a delight. It's run by these older white women who take... I mean it's almost like a mission for them to keep this story alive even though it's not their story. And they love it when groups like the pilgrimage groups come through. You know they just...

Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah I went to the pilgrimage when they were expecting to get maybe a couple of hundred people and they got like 2,000.

Mary Doi: Wow. Wow.

Gordon Yoshikawa: And so that's the time that I had gone, it was the first time there.

Mary Doi: Ah, okay.

Gordon Yoshikawa: And my late wife was with me, so she got to see Rohwer again.

Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah.

Gordon Yoshikawa: But at the time I went, the museum did not exist. And the person I guess that was active on that was Wada, Mr. Wada who was, who had been in Rohwer and, and stayed in McGehee or in that area. And MDC used to get reports from George Sakaguchi, who was also a MDC governor at one time, but he 01:30:00was making trips down to McGehee. And I think bringing back reports about restoration of the parts of the cemetery. And so I'm hoping that MDC paid for part of that, but I don't know for sure.

Mary Doi: Yeah, good to, good to hear that.