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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Doi, Lisa M.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Doi, Yoko
Interview Keyword
Shin-Issei
Christianity
Tokyo
Yamagata
Hiroshima
Oxnard, CA
Gila River
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/21/2017 Doi, Yoko (10/21/2017) 1:38:26 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation, Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program, and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Shin-Issei Christianity Tokyo Yamagata Hiroshima Oxnard, CA Gila River Doi, Yoko Takada, Anna Doi, Lisa M. video 1:|13(9)|25(6)|50(9)|61(16)|71(7)|79(10)|98(2)|107(12)|115(13)|124(12)|133(1)|145(16)|154(11)|167(3)|175(9)|189(3)|197(11)|210(3)|219(10)|231(10)|243(9)|254(4)|265(9)|278(11)|289(13)|299(11)|309(14)|320(1)|328(1)|341(7)|357(15)|367(5)|380(12)|393(1)|427(10)|438(4)|449(1)|466(4)|483(7)|495(11)|507(12)|517(11)|527(14)|540(7)|552(1)|560(6)|571(1)|578(11)|588(7)|599(10)|609(9)|623(5)|633(17)|646(4)|659(4)|672(5)|685(11)|705(7)|718(4)|727(11)|740(10)|752(1)|769(6)|790(1)|802(3)|819(1)|837(13)|846(6)|857(10)|867(9)|882(1)|892(6)|906(13)|916(10)|933(3)|943(13)|952(1)|970(2)|981(1)|998(1)|1007(14)|1018(11)|1032(9)|1043(4)|1058(3)|1071(2)|1079(15)|1092(17)|1103(1)|1111(8)|1120(8)|1130(12)|1139(11)|1148(10)|1160(13)|1170(2)|1188(13)|1202(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/747424632/87dd1834bf Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/747424632?h=87dd1834bf" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Yoko Doi was born in Tokyo, Japan in 1935. The oldest of four children, she recalls an early childhood spent close to Tokyo Bay, rising patriotism in Japan, and harrowing wartime experiences of family and friends. Rather than being evacuated to a temple in Nagano prefecture with other children, Yoko was taken to her grandmother's home in Hokkaido during the war. Meanwhile, her family endured the fire bombing of Tokyo before escaping to live with her paternal relatives in Yamagata prefecture. After the war, Yoko was reunited with her family in Yamagata where she completed high school before attending a Christian university in Tokyo. After being introduced by her landlord, Yoko and her future husband Mikio exchanged letters for three years before he traveled to Japan to propose marriage. Mikio was a nisei who resettled in Chicago after his incarceration at Gila River. Yoko recounts many stories from both her family and her husband's family, including wartime experiences in Japan and in the United States. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Yoko Doi as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The Oral History Project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition Then They Came For Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans During World War II and the Demise of Civil Liberties. Today is October 21st at about 11:30 AM and we are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Yoko Doi is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. So to start, can you just state your full name? Yoko Doi: My name is Yoko Doi, and um, my language, my mother tongue is Japanese so my English maybe sometime didn' ; t understand you. So anyway, if, if I speak too fast please you know, let me know. Anna Takada: Okay. I' ; ll let you know. Um, and so can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? Yoko Doi: I was born in Tokyo, Japan. And how many years ago? 83 years ago. And I had experienced the World War II in Tokyo, and my father is a technician so he was home and we are alway, always in Tokyo. And... Anna Takada: Do you, do you have any siblings? Yoko Doi: Yes, my parents both died already, and I have one brother and two sisters, and one sister died last year so I have one brother and one sister. And after the war, is, because of that their house, our house was burned and then so they have no place to live so we went to northern part of Japan, it' ; s called Yamagata prefecture. There, my sisters and brother is living right now. Anna Takada: And so where are you in the birth order of your family? Yoko Doi: I am the first daughter. Anna Takada: First daughter? Yoko Doi: Yeah. Anna Takada: Is your brother older or you? Yoko Doi: My brother is younger than me. Anna Takada: Okay. So you' ; re the oldest? Yoko Doi: Yes. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about what your memories of Tokyo as you were growing up before the war? Yoko Doi: Uh, you know, we lived closer to Tokyo Bay, so I remember in the summertime... Because I live in Tokyo until fifth grade, so it' ; s not that much that you know I have experienced by myself as a teenager goes out and kind of thing. But summertime, every day I went to the Tokyo Bay. Right now Tokyo Bay is dead so nothing there, but at that time Tokyo Bay was really good that you know swimming place. So every day summer, every day we, my mother taking us to the thing Tokyo Bay, to that swimming and picking up the shells and things like that. That' ; s a fun memory. And all the festivals, you know? That' ; s about it, fun, children' ; s family. Anna Takada: And um, was your, was your family religious at all, or what were some activities you did besides maybe school? Yoko Doi: Not particularly. My mother is that really... Um, what do you call that? You know, outgoing person. So we' ; re going to go sit at the movies but we cannot... As a, as a child I cannot go into that, the movie theater, but that baby could go in, but the first grade and the second grade when I was first and second grade, we cannot get into that, the movie. But my mother put it on, put the baby is that you know somebody, somebody else and then he carried me and I get into the movie theater kind of things, you know? My mother was that really funny person and so we just have the fun, something like that. Then we are not that... We are Buddhist, that background, you know, and so they ha-- But I' ; m Christian right now but I have a Buddhist background family. And whenever that my mother' ; s family in Hokkaido, my father' ; s family in Yamagata, when they come in from there to visiting that Tokyo we' ; re taking to them to that you know, all the temples. And so I love to go to the temples because I have that sad story. This is, I didn' ; t think about it, at the-- talk about it, but that my grandma is he wa-- she was really such a nice lady and she was taking care of me so well, and whenever I visiting her in Yamagata she was really, play with me and then this and this. But one day we went to that you know Yamagata, she was laying down in the futon and I didn' ; t know what is happening and then she was dying. And she died and everybody crying, someplace they went to other world. But I wondered where she went to, you know? So I really loves to go to that temple, to that, talking to that bonsan? Obousan? Uh-- P-Priest! Priest to you know to, is that, " ; Where are we going to go after died?" ; And you know so that' ; s why that whenever they come, that' ; s why that it comes out right away that, you know that we' ; re going to go temple to die. Yeah. Anna Takada: How old were you when your grandma passed? Yoko Doi: I was that you know, about three or something? Three or four. Anna Takada: Very young. Yoko Doi: Yeah. Anna Takada: And then when the war started you were a young child, can you tell me a little bit about your memories of... Yoko Doi: When the war start is that Japan is so happy. Everybody got the Japanese flag and I thought, " ; Oh, we go into that war and we' ; re going to win and that." ; We had a celebrating. You know but the year after September is that the American airplane came and Japanese government shook up, " ; Oh my goodness." ; Is that you know, Japan going to be, going to be attacked very soon, this and this and that you know it' ; s really, really nonsense they' ; re going to doing the things. And that you know bamboo stick? They' ; re going to cut off that you know that bamboo stick, cut off sideway like this and it' ; s okay it' ; s as it is. You could kill the people, because it' ; s that the bamboo stick is that really hard you know? But, so all you know that, the women' ; s club and they learned how to kill the people like this, but everybody have that you know gun. But anyway, something like that, that they started doing and not really feeling that war is losing kind of things. You know, we felt it and then the airplane came and... Oh yeah, one story is that when American side, we love that Mount Zhao... I mean that Mount Fuji. Right? Fuji-san, " ; Oh, that big nice mountain." ; But is that you know American say any place they' ; re going to come to Japan, go to the, look at the Mount Fuji first because Mount Fuji is so high and the top is over the cloud, so that they could see the Mount Fuji. So Mount Fuji come then little bit of northwest you' ; re going and then at the Tokyo there. So that you know you, the army know that... We cannot sing anymore that Mount Fuji is that... Fuji-san is number one mountain in Japan that we, we have, the singing like that you know? And after that, we heard then nobody could sing that song anymore and then they' ; re going to talk about, " ; Cut off that Mount Fuji, the top." ; Or something like that they, they' ; re talking about it. So war is getting worse and worse and then that you know Japanese government is trying to remove that older children third grade and up to that you know someplace else, the country side, you know? And I know my friend, my sister-in-law went to those places and that she was in the Nagano in the temple I think she went to. And then that you know, she, we have no food to eat, nothing, and then it happened to have that the Nagano area had that you know potato, is a good producing the potato. She said, " ; Every day, morning and lunch and night. She eat potato everyday. So right now, she didn' ; t like the potato too much. Then, I know my mother went to that field and she picked the dandelion that you know, and that' ; s they eating, and that much we didn' ; t have no food. But I, I supposed to go to the Nagano area at some temple but scheduled it... But my grandma came, I don' ; t know why she came in and she came in and somebody that... She, her brother or somebody died I think, and then she came in and that she heard, " ; Oh Yoko have to go to that someplace else and that..." ; You know so grandma said, " ; No. No. No, I can' ; t send that, my grandma that kind of place. I' ; m going to take her." ; So all of a sudden I went to that Hokkaido, and so I live in Hokkaido two years so that is... War finished at August, I was in, up to September I was in there. Yeah. Anna Takada: When you were traveling were you with your siblings or your parents or how did that work? Yoko Doi: Oh, oh my goodness, is that you know traveling is that you know that really, really bad because it' ; s that you know train... You, you don' ; t know... After, after that is that anytime American come and there' ; s a bombing there, right? And then so if you go to train and that the train bombed, everybody going to die there you know? And so it' ; s a, traveling is a really, really bad thing. But when I went to Japa-- to Hokkaido it just started you know so that' ; s not bad. But when I coming back from the Hokkaido to Yamagata, oh my goodness it' ; s a really hard time, the, the people looking for the food, the people looking for that you know... After the war even that we had a hard... No food, no food in Japan! And that you know, my husband, the Doi families, that you know the grandpa from me, my husband' ; s... The grandpa, grandma, they are living in that Hiroshima and when I met them and they say that you know, " ; Oh Americans." ; The camp, the concentration camp. " ; They are more better than here." ; He said, " ; Because they could eat three times." ; It' ; s a good meal and he loves the bacon. And that you know, " ; They eat bacon every morning I heard!" ; (Laughs) That you know, that much, we didn' ; t have nothing to eat. Really hard time to that you know... The things is that the food was that you know... And that you know that the teenager, we are just growing up and we' ; re always hungry you know? And so something like that is happening you know. Yeah. Anna Takada: Were you together with your family in these different places with your... Yoko Doi: No. My immediate family, parents and then that, my... Another three brothers and sisters, they are in Tokyo. I was in Hokkaido, way northern part you know? And so I didn' ; t have any experience, with that, the bombing things you know? But uh, my mother, I mean, my fa-- her house, Tokyo house was bombed and at the time... Kamata wa, it' ; s the area where they live, is that really good factory... More likely is that the making that you know airplane, part of the airplane and things like that, my father was employed in one of the things so it really is, American aim there too. And then last minute it' ; s in May I think is that... I think in the, in the years May I think they, they bombed there. And um, my father said that you know, " ; Okay. Today the American come to bomb this area." ; So they, they knew where that you know, that coming so my father said you know, " ; We' ; re not going to go any place." ; We love to go to that you know the river kind of things you know? People not too many people there so they' ; re going to survive there. But no, it' ; s not. It' ; s that you know, and too many crowd and the family, he don' ; t want our family to you know the separated? So everybody together. We' ; re going to go into that shelter. It' ; s our own shelter, is you know is, we made a, that igloo? Igloo like you know, that we start you know, dig the hole and put the igloo. Anna Takada: Dome? Yoko Doi: Dome kind of things you know? And each family have that one but my father said, " ; That' ; s too small so we' ; re going to go to the government made one, big one. It' ; s in the public so we' ; re going to go there to that you know? We' ; re going to stay overnight." ; And the big hospital is there, was, if that one is that you know bombing and that one is that falling down, that' ; s the time is that really crucial time. So if that one goes, we are, we gonna survive so we gonna go in there. So father went first anyway is that they' ; re taking my brother with, and that you know, and then my mother taking care of another... She had another baby at the time, she was one or two years old and she carried that one. And my sister is little slow you know so she really, my mother had a harder time with her you know? But she holding hand with her to that walking and that you know, that the big bomb dropping in front of her, but it wasn' ; t exploded so you know she was survived it. So she went to that shelters and so my mother and all the people that they' ; re inside there. But my father is out and put futon? Futon, it' ; s put it in the, in the area had a big field was there, we' ; re always playing there and lots of memory had and they got a pond in the middle. So she going to put the futon in the water and they put the cover, the you know the entrance one. Then so really the, whenever the hospital burned down it' ; s lots of that you know that... What they call the, you know that fire? That (makes small circle gesture). Anna Takada: Smoke? Yoko Doi: Smoke and then you know that... The fire small you know fire things coming, coming out and he put it in and everybody, everybody survived there. And then a couple other young, young mother and young, young man and helping him to do that, and then that everybody say thank you so much and then nobody went to that you know river. And people who went to the river, almost 80% of people died that in the river because is that you know its, river' ; s water is actually boiling I heard my father told, my father said, you know? Because of the bomb, bomb down and then that, the fire coming out and then that you know? So most of the, all the body was floating in the rivers you know? And so my mother say, " ; Yeah, my father always that really good and then he, he could see it." ; You know? So, something like that had happened and they all went to that Yamagata. So that' ; s why they live right now in Yamagata, because my father had business in Yamagata. And my brother, what is that you know? Take over his business and then he did the business there too you know? So he are living there. Anna Takada: Was that after the war that they moved? Yoko Doi: After the-- Right after the bomb that they... And hard time to go to that Yamagata too. And my mother said, " ; Oh my goodness we are so miserable looking." ; You know? Half burning someplace, you know? That clothes and... He got a big that... His silk, big that, the things that they carries and we are just like hobo. Hobo it' ; s called? Yeah, it look like, like that. And beginning in Tokyo everybody look like same, you know? That in the airplane-- I mean the, the train. And half... It' ; s from the Tokyo to that you know the Yamagata is at the time is more likely 12 hours, 10 hours ride so taking that about five hours, everybody changing, all the other people get off and not too many people is there. And so now that train is changing and that the nice suits people comes in, everybody looking at us and really feels ashamed too you know? But anyway, right after that day they bombed they went to that you know, Yamagata, and then my father' ; s house they went to. And then my father' ; s house is a big, big house so you know they could live about there about six months or so, and then my father got another house in Yamagata. Yeah. Anna Takada: And they' ; ve been there since? Yoko Doi: Uh, no, no, they built that. My brother he did well, so my brother had that nice big house that he built again. And then I came, they went there it' ; s May. I think it' ; s April or May is that the, the area was bombed, and then that December, then August was war finished, and August the first, second is that the atomic bomb drops. And then that you know, August 15 is that war finished, and December I came to that Yamagata I think from Hokkaido. That' ; s, that' ; s my that, you know war story. Anna Takada: So since you were so young but not too young where you don' ; t you know remember and realize what' ; s going on, can you tell me more about um... Just, I mean to experience that as a child, did you understand... Or, or, or what was that like to split up from your family during that time? Yoko Doi: Splitting up? People who went to that you know um, totally... See, I went to that grandma' ; s house so it' ; s a little different than that you know people went to that you know the temple and then all the student together, you know? And I heard that you know, one lady, not my sister-in-law, another lady is that you know from that Okinawa came to that you know Kyushu, and then in Kyushu she went to the separated. And " ; Oh I cried every night and that you know I want to see the mother." ; That' ; s you know that there. Because I' ; m in the fifth grade and fifth grade is a little older, so you know that my age... My sister-in-law is a fourth grade I think, so she is okay then her most that you know things is she' ; s eating the potato all the time, that' ; s the, she remembers you know? And then, but other, another lady, she' ; s younger than that, two, three younger than me, so she is that you know more likely you know third, third grade and fourth grade and, " ; Oh, I' ; m crying every night. I want to see my mother." ; You know? So it' ; s a hard time to that you know, those people. But I have a fun and my grandma is it that I' ; m respecting my grandma so much, so you know, as long as my grandma is there I' ; m okay. Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you remember the day that you reconnected with your family? Yoko Doi: Yeah, but it' ; s different than that you know my grandma' ; s house. Grandma' ; s house is a so big house and then that you know everybody there and lot of people there, and you know, came to that the... Yamagata at the time is that my father working at the city and then my mother living in at the mountain. So you know in the mountain, in a small cottage like house you know? " ; My goodness, I have to live here?" ; Kind of things you know happened that. But it' ; s, you know getting the father, mother together and brothers and you know so it' ; s okay. Yeah. But it' ; s a year and a half separated, it' ; s really, it' ; s that... I heard that it' ; s, you know that my friend went to the concentration camp you know, is that you know, my husband won' ; t talk too much about it, that you know concentration camp and these kind of things. But I heard my friend went in a concentration camp and then that you know " ; It is fun every day, is that we are get together you know dinner time and a friend you know eating. But Yoko if you think about it, we didn' ; t have that family gathering." ; You know, it' ; s that fun to eating with a friend but that you know mother telling her, " ; No, you should eat this way, you should eat that." ; You know that? " ; I didn' ; t have any manner to learn and nobody else. I just wild so much. You know, that come to think of it, all those things I really miss that the family gathering. I missed it." ; That' ; s, you know she said it. So in a way, but that you know, in my case it' ; s different in Grandpa-- G-Grandma' ; s house you know? So, in Grandp--Gra-- my mother' ; s side of the, Hokkaido no Grandpa, Grandma is the really strict one. (laughs) So you know... So it' ; s, I' ; m okay. I didn' ; t have too much, that you know those sad story. But that, I know it' ; s older Nisei you know people, they had that... If you talk about it, this concentration camp things, it' ; s really family gathering. And also that you know parents never telling them what to do kind of things. And always, always thinking about, " ; We are the enemy," ; that " ; We are the enemy." ; So they don' ; t want to... Lot of Nisei people is really unsociable, you know? Is is a lot of... I, when I came to the United States from Japan, and I kind of thinking about, " ; Oh my goodness. This Nisei people is really is that you know unsociable, and they won' ; t do too much that you know fun things and this and this." ; But they' ; re going to gather together Nisei club they making, and then a Nisei club they have. But go outside, they won' ; t do too much about out world. That is really you know it' ; s sad, is that they, inside, is, " ; We are enemy," ; you know kind of things you know? But as long as I' ; m concerned, I am that really, didn' ; t have that too much, that the war is affected me. Yeah. Anna Takada: Um, so it, it' ; s... Well, first, can you tell me um... So what happened with your family after the war? Where, what were you doing, and at what point did you end up going to the U.S.? Yoko Doi: Oh... Oh you know, I went to the high school in Yamagata and then at... I just want to go to the Tokyo. And then I graduated at the university in Tokyo. I, I went out to the Tokyo, and so you know it' ; s that... Yamagata is, to me, is not that much my hometown. Is that, Tokyo still my hometown. Lot of friend is in Tokyo you know? I have the good friends there. And I went to Aoyama University you know? Is that, they are famous in the Christian family --uh Christian school. And there, I learn the Christianity you know? So I become Christian in the school. I mean, not school. I, I learn it from the Christianity there. So I was in Tokyo. I working at the Tokyo... My family-- my father done well you know at business. And one extended partner was that something happened, and then that you know those business things is always happen or something else. So my father had a little bit of hard time. But after that, my brother graduated college, and he take over that, my father. And my brother did a good job. Don' ; t you, don' ; t you think so? Yeah. He did good. So it' ; s okay. And they had a nice, big nice house they built and three boys that he had. So you know it, my family, and for my brother, did a good job. Yeah. And um... Anna Takada: And in school, what did you study? Yoko Doi: English I studied. English literature you know? That school is famous teaching the English literature. And I had another one it' ; s close-by and Japanese literature. And then, " ; Which one shall I go?" ; And then I thought, " ; Oh, well, maybe I better learn the English." ; And then that you know I went the English one you know? Then happen to have that school was that you know that Christian school. And my goodness! First thing is that you know you have to learn, you have to read the Bible. Bible? What is the book called Bible? I really don' ; t know. I was so shamed you know? But yeah, I studied there English and Christianity. And... But it' ; s that, okay. School insist me that... Because school is a Christian, Christian school, so they could insist us to study that you know Christianity. And, so I say, " ; Okay, in that case, I gonna go to, I gonna go to the Buddhist zen temple." ; I went to Kamakura at Engakuji, it' ; s called. You know? It' ; s like... Oh, you know? Yeah. There, I did the zazen. Ten years, I had experience with the zazen. I did there. You know, it' ; s really a good experience I did there. Yeah. Anna Takada: Wow. Yoko Doi: So that' ; s my story. And you want to know how to come to the United States, how to meet my husband? Anna Takada: Yes. Yoko Doi: (Laughs) Nothing is that too much. Like, my sister-in-law had that you know, that big story she has. But me, it' ; s no. It' ; s that, because it' ; s I have to have that you know, my own place, right? Because my parents is in Yamagata. So happened to have that I rented the apartment. The owner of the apartment is that you know connected with my husband Mikio' ; s brother' ; s wife. The uncle is at that place. That, you know really is that you know-- But Mikio' ; s brother is younger than Mikio. Mikio is older. And that you know that... So, wife is, she is really, really... Right now too, she' ; s really thinking about other people and that you know taking care of them. So she worries about it, that his brother-in-law, " ; Oh, he' ; s older than my husband, and he didn' ; t have any that you know wife. Maybe I going to look for the wife for him." ; (laughs) She wrote a letter to the uncle, " ; Don' ; t you have anybody else can speak a little English then that you know and interesting to come to United States?" ; That' ; s... So she wrote a letter to them, and then that you know, he looked around, " ; Okay, where is the girl?" ; Like, " ; Here she is in, in his apartment!" ; That' ; s my story! (laughs) So you know the owner ask me, " ; Do you have you interest in?" ; And so I say, " ; Well, yeah," ; but that you know I like to know what kind of person. And she said, " ; Of course. And how you going to know? You cannot meet him." ; And I say, " ; Okay, yeah, write a letter." ; So we exchanging the letter about three years with my husband you know? And then I know my husband is not too much outgoing type, kind of person. I could tell from that you know the writing. So I could tell what kind of person he is. And then that you know so... Anna Takada: When did that start? When did you start corresponding? Yoko Doi: Oh. I, I married at about 29, late you know, so that correspondence is about 26. 26? Six, seven, eight, nine, yeah. About 26 I think. And then three years in, and that you know his mother, my mother-in-law, is, " ; Ah, hurry up. What are you doing?" ; kind of thing. And then she' ; s the one wrote me the letter... And " ; What are you--" ; Because she telling him. " ; What are you doing?" ; And he said just kinda, " ; Urusai, (grunts) I don' ; t want to talk about." ; He is like that. He' ; s not that much open person. So you know and the mother-in-law wrote me, " ; What are you doing? And can you do something else from your side?" ; Anna Takada: Were you writing in English or Japanese? Yoko Doi: My mother-in-law is that more like the Kibei Nisei. So you know she understand. She graduated high school in Tokyo-- in Hiroshima. So she understand Japanese well. So write it down in Japanese to her. But for him, I write English. You know, I don' ; t know how much he understand. Anna Takada: And where is his family from? Or where was he when you were corresponding? Yoko Doi: They are Hiroshima. Yeah. Anna Takada: Oh, okay. Yoko Doi: Oh! I' ; m sorry! It' ; s, they are in Chicago! Anna Takada: Oh, okay. In Chicago. Yoko Doi: Yeah. Yeah. And because it' ; s that after the war is almost 10, 12 years after that... Yeah, I think. More than that. No, more than that. Speaker 1: 1960 maybe? Yoko Doi: Yeah. Speaker 1: Like- Yoko Doi: Yeah, ' ; 65 you was born, right? Speaker 1: I was born in ' ; 65. Yoko Doi: Yeah, born in the sixty. So 1960, around ' ; 60, before the sixty is you know is we corresponding, you know? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Doi: Yeah. Anna Takada: And so his, his mother wrote to you and said " ; Hurry up" ; . And then, and then what happens? How did you end up coming? Yoko Doi: He, he' ; s... I don' ; t know. I think I wrote him something you know, " ; Your mother said this and this and this." ; You know and is that... Okay... The funny thing is that my mother-in-law and then that my husband how they connect, how they that communicating. My mother-in-law speaking Japanese to him and he speaking English to her. And they are connecting. That I learned after I came here they tell me. But at the time, I didn' ; t know. But I was wondering why he didn' ; t tell, she didn' ; t tell him directly. And after that, I understand, yeah, " ; Oh, because of this." ; And so I write it down what, " ; Your mother said this and this. Are you interest in me? Are you coming? Or what do you want to do?" ; And he decided, okay. That September, then he said, " ; Okay, I' ; m coming." ; And you know... But there is a story, is there. He bought that ring, engagement ring already you know? But it' ; s that you know Hiroshima side, it' ; s, his grandpa, grandma is in Hiroshima at that time, right? And then that you know, Hiroshima side, " ; If this girl say no, what am I gonna, what is he gonna do? Okay, we going to prepare another girl." ; (laughs) So grandma prepared that you know couple other, three other girls and you know it' ; s, " ; Okay, if she say no, we gonna that, have the--." ; (laughs) That me told me... No. Yeah, that he told me, " ; My mother, my mother say something like that." ; And I said, " ; Oh." ; Oh, no. Grandma tell. Grandma the one ne? Yeah, Hiroshima no Grandma the one that tells me about that one you know? And then that, " ; Yeah, because if we gonna, if we thinking about if you say no, what, what are we going to do?" ; So you know they said, " ; I have prepare somebody else." ; But she brought the you know that engagement ring and okay. And then that okay. Then we going to marry. Then, all right, so that you know let' ; s marry. So she-- he took about, about two weeks or something, but he postpone it. And then he stayed at Japan about... And after that, then married. We married at Kobe counselor, counseling. Counselor? Counsel? Speaker 1: Consulate. Yoko Doi: Consul. Speaker 1: Consulate. Yoko Doi: Consul. Yeah. Kobe Consul. We married there. And then that, his uncle came from the Hiroshima to you know standing up for us. And then that you know, so we had a honeymoon around the you know Kyoto area, because Kobe Consul, that Kyoto and because he wanted to see Kyoto area. So we went to Kyoto. Oh, before that one, we went... Of course we went to see Grandpa, Grandma you know, and I introduce myself to them you know? And they are really, really... I love that his grandpa... I fall in love with that his grandpa. Is really, really good one. But he was fourth stage of that cancer, lung cancer. And, you know and so, but he talking to me. And can I tell the story about what the grandpa-- grandpa' ; s experienced in that you know, that atomic bomb? Or shall I... Speaker 1: No, that' ; s a good story. Yoko Doi: Yeah. No, shall I tell that you know, how they going to immigrate to that United States? Maybe after that one huh? Anna Takada: Whichever. Yoko Doi: In chronicle way, we have to, have to story about that you know they are immigrating, how they immigrated in America. Anna Takada: Oh, you mean the Doi family? Yoko Doi: Doi family. Anna Takada: Um, sure. Yoko Doi: Yeah. Okay, so that you know, because of this chronical way, I better start it at the Doi family story about it. So anyway, I call Grandma and Grandpa. That is, for her (points off-screen), is Great-Grandpa, Great-Grandma. But that you know, my husband' ; s, it' ; s Doi family' ; s grandpa, grandma. And when she was 18 and Grandpa was 19 I think, and then that you know she fall in love with that you know this guy, Doi. Yuji Doi. That is Grandpa. I love him too you know? She supposed to married tomorrow, the following day, wedding day, she elope with him... He, but she keep asking him, " ; I don' ; t want to marry this guy. He' ; s a nice guy. My cousin and this and this. But I love you so much, and I cannot marry this guy." ; You know and kinda this. So their uncle was in, I think it' ; s Canada. No, United St... No, no, no. California. So, she want they want to come to the United States. But that you know I think that is that you know... My father-in-law was born in 1909. So 18-somet--, 1890-something. United States closed that you know, Japanese immigrant, you know? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Doi: So that year, they cannot come to the United States. And so, but anyway, they have to go someplace, because is that you know they eloped you know? And okay, " ; We' ; re going to elope to the United States." ; That' ; s they, their... " ; I don' ; t want to stay around here. So, and anyway, let' ; s go to Kobe." ; So you know is that Grandma carried that, all her wedding gown and that all... Grandma' ; s house is that really well doing, the house. And so she carried that one. " ; , Yo-san that is just about the new year time," ; you know? And she carried the things. " ; And I wanted to go with him, but when I walking around that street to meet him, everybody so looks happy, and then the light is coming out. And I was sad to that leave this Hiroshima." ; But she, she meet him, and that you know she went to the Kobe. And now that America was closed, then that you know they cannot go. And so now, " ; What am I going to do?" ; And then that, they had that opportunity to go to that, Mexico. So you know, " ; Okay, then we' ; re going to go to Mexico." ; And then that you know, I don' ; t know how they attain visa and those things at that time, how they work. But then that you know she didn' ; t remember all those things. So she just you know... We just went to the Mexico. And that was that really, really, really bad place they went to. And then that you know, banana plants I think. The plantation. It' ; s the banana plantation. And then that you know in the place, they had a you know, big pond is there. And then, in a big pond, there is a little... Not little, but the, is... How many family was there, they say that about 10 or 15 family is there... Pond is big like this, right. And then that you know, in the middle, there is that you know, people to live here. And in this pond, there' ; s a crocodile is there. And then that you know they cannot go through this easily. And then that you know, morning, they' ; re going to bringing in the boat here, and then they ride on the boat and go to that the other side, then that you know, they' ; re going to go to work, to the, picking out the banana things. And then coming back, then it goes in there, and it goes there. Something like that place, they live in. And then that you know and house was that you know... Just... But Mexico is warm, right? So it' ; s not that the building, just a shelter kinda. And the top there, and you know that just to... So, when the wind comes in... I don' ; t think that too much rain over there I think. But when a rainy day is you know, something rain comes, something like that place that they live in and then that you know... Anna Takada: How long were they there, in Mexico? Yoko Doi: Yeah that you know, Grandpa say... Anyway, Grandma, Grandma was that you know pregnant. And then Grandpa say... Grandpa is a really manly person, and Grandpa said, " ; Okay, we cannot that, raise the children this kind of place. I have to do something." ; And then that you know, " ; Okay, don' ; t tell anybody else." ; And then that Grandpa was that you know, thinking and thinking, and he made up a really, really good, good plan you know? And, " ; Okay, I going to tell that this, this, this person, so you know, we going to that plan it." ; Then they planned... Because they don' ; t want that you know owner to hear the things, that escaping, right? So anyway, it' ; s, Grandpa' ; s plan is... It' ; s really clever. Clever. " ; Okay, we have to look for that rainy day, so we cannot make a set day. If it' ; s not rain, we cannot get out." ; But that you know, okay. " ; Rainy day and a windy day, we gonna go. So everybody, if you come with us want to go us, you, better to ready. Tomorrow, we' ; re going to go because rain." ; Because it' ; s that you know, when the rain comes, Grandpa say is that you know, is that boat coming, boat coming here to here, he going to sit down in the end of the boat. Is that you know Mexican is here and rowing, they goes, goes like this. He going to sit down here and put the string. Grandma had really good silk that, clothes, right, because wedding clothes, that they, they, they torn that. Because silk is so strong, right? So that you know they' ; re making that you know three things, and they make that a silk rope. And they put that things in here, because rain, you cannot see well. So you know put this side, it, they' ; re going to put it in that you know something else there, and then that you know, the boat is that you know there and coming here. And then that you know, all this, rope is here. So that' ; s the way Grandpa said, " ; Okay, let' ; s do that way. Okay, if they' ; re to find out, and then that we' ; re gonna kill. It' ; s, can' ; t help it. But this is work, so let' ; s do it." ; And then that... One rainy day, it' ; s did it that way. And then that almost... Not almost. All people agree with him to come... So that you know, two, one is not enough. Two times they did something like that, you know? And then that, they escaped from there. And then that, but is that, part of the people is that you know... I, really don' ; t know the map too well. But that you know, is that some people wanted to go back to that you know, port, where the Japanese ship coming. They want to go there. But Grandpa said, " ; No, we going to go that little bit north." ; And Mikio' ; s uncle... It means that the Grandpa' ; s with the children. One of them said, " ; Must be that' ; s Texas." ; And then that you know he hear that train is there, so, " ; We going to go see the train. And then let' ; s ride a train to California." ; That' ; s his plan was. And then that, so... He mentioned this, where was that place. But I just didn' ; t remember that, the name of the place. And then when I talking to that in California about this one a little bit, they said, " ; I know. Is that somebody else talking about the same story you are. It' ; s one of them is that escaping from there. It must be together with that you know grandpa. And I heard the name, but I didn' ; t remember too." ; But anyway, something like that, and then that you know. They find... Because it' ; s from that plantation to that you know coming to that you know rail, it' ; s not like now. No walls, and you could go through so easily. So you know came through. And so after the rail, railroad is they' ; re really easy to find it. But the railroad, one problem is that when they walking toward to that you know California, so that means it' ; s that west, right... And big, big that you know river was there. I don' ; t know what kind of river it is. But the river was there. And then that you know big... You know, it' ; s river is... How, how could I say? When you' ; re walking that railroad, rail is here, and then wood is here, right? Speaker 1: Tracks. Railroad tracks. Yoko Doi: Tracks, yeah. Railroad tracks, I mean, on the river. Is that you know wood is here, and on the top of the wood is, rail is there. So it' ; s from that wood to wood, its space is there, right? The, the track. Means the track the space about this big, right? This big. And then that you know, some, Grandpa said couple, is they fell down from there. Because train coming, so they had to run to that you know, that that... Grandpa, grandma was that you know first one. So the, the first one went in means it' ; s that the last one to go out right? And then they had to run so hard and a couple people fell down from there. And then that you know, they went, they went to the river. I don' ; t think... they cannot alive you know? But they cannot see anything you know? So, anyway is that, grandpa-- grandma missed the wood and she fell down halfway, and then she miscarriaged that day. Yeah. So that grandpa' ; s, our grandpa is that you, that grandpa means it' ; s that' ; s her grandpa, my husband' ; s father, Yuji-san no, the son is second son. It' ; s that the first one is a miscarriage that you know. And then after that, the, they came in. But is that... Something else? You have to go? Anna Takada: No. I just... No. Yoko Doi: And then that you know, is that, so anyway, is that something like that, they came to the United States. And then that you know, is that... So they didn' ; t have that official immigration, and then they are so scared too you know that they run away from them you know? Because they get the money, they pay the money to that you know go to the work things. You know? And then about six months, they are there, I think you know? And then after, they, they were, they came. And then that, but they found that job. And then you know it' ; s California, they, it' ; s okay. But that, you know and... End up they are living in Oxnard, right? Yeah, Oxnard. Oxnard, California. End up that Oxnard, California. Before that one, grandpa, grandma, they found that uncle was there. And then they found the uncle, and the uncle introduced that you know. He' ; s really good to do that you know, working in a yard, in a tree. What do you call those... A gardener! He was in a gardener, and then that, grandma was that a maid. Oh yeah, one story. It' ; s such a funny story. Grandma thought is that you know, in Japan, they' ; re going to fold the futon and put it in that you know, oshi... You know the clothes, put it in the you know, the cabinet. And so grandpa folded it, whole thing, said fold it. And she didn' ; t know where to, she didn' ; t know how to fold that you know the mattress. She didn' ; t know what to do, so she' ; s standing in and that you know. The, the house, the miss, lady come in. " ; Oh, you folding everything." ; And then she was laughing. Another one is she didn' ; t know how to do the iron because in Japan, we had an iron is that they put the charcoal in it. And then you know. But electric, she didn' ; t know that one. And so she said, " ; I had so much that you know problem with that housework. And then, oh, grandpa is really, really good and grandpa is so handy person." ; But anyway, it' ; s that grandma' ; s house is that really good well done, well house, so she never worked at a house before. You know so that is the, that is the thing. Anna Takada: And, how many children did they end up having? Yoko Doi: Having five. Five, Isamu-san is the first one. And then that you know, four me- men-- boys and one girl, they, they had. Yeah. And then all, they are all went, went in a camp. Yeah. And then that, grandpa, you know grandpa, is that, Japan, he loves Japan. And so that, the war start and then I thought, " ; Okay, I' ; m going back to the Japan." ; So you know, the last ship, I think, they went to back to Japan, I think. Anna Takada: To Hiroshima? Yoko Doi: Yeah. And then that, grand- grand- Isamu-san, is that, you know that, my husband' ; s father, is that, okay, grandpa, grandma goes to Japan and then that you know, you don' ; t, you didn' ; t have any... You need money, you know so you take all the money. So she, he give, they-- everybody give that whole money to that grandpa, grandma, away to their parents and then that, you know? More likely is Isamu-san is that first son, and he feel like responsible. And then, they had a store in Oxnard. They had a store and renting apartment you know is that grandpa started. The next day, is, money comes in, grandpa knows, so you know, give it to them. But that, grandpa say, " ; Oh, then that you know, lettuce and strawberry was there. So lettuce and strawberry money comes in, so don' ; t worry about it." ; Is that you know, they left, I think, December. And then that you know, no, not December. December 7th, the war started, so that you know, September ka. So-- but anyway, is that you know, the, it' ; s coming, so don' ; t worry about it. So they give the all the money, and then grandpa said, " ; No. Nothing, no money comes in." ; Because it' ; s that you know the camp started right away right? When the war start? Anna Takada: A few months later. Yoko Doi: Few months later, right? So that lettuce, is that you know, he expected to have the money. Is that you know, following that, the war started Sept-- December, right? So that the lettuce is about April to May. They have to leave for the concentration camp and then that, Grandpa said, " ; We didn' ; t have no money," ; because all the money he gave to the parents. Then nobody buy the lettuce. Is, they know it' ; s that they have to go to the concentration camp, and strawberry, lots of strawberry was there. And then that you know, " ; Oh, we didn' ; t have no money." ; Anna Takada: That' ; s what they sold in the store, or where were the strawberries? Yoko Doi: Oh, grandpa-- grandpa, grandma Yuji-san went to Japan one, grandpa, grandma had a store and then the apartment. It' ; s, they are the ones is taking care. And then my husband' ; s father, Isamu-san, is that taking care of field. They grow that you know lettuce and strawberry and something else, I forgot. Is that you know, quite a bit of big ones that they are taking care. So you know that' ; s why they thought they' ; re going to come in the money, so they give all the money to that grandpa, grandma. So, grandpa said that, " ; Yeah, I had, I got money and so I, I have that house right away." ; And then they went to Hiroshima. Anna Takada: Do you know if-- Do you know if your father-in-law owned the land? Yoko Doi: No, no, no, no, no. That renting. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Doi: Yeah. And then that you know, that, the store too, it' ; s not... Because it' ; s that you know grandpa was, grandpa was born in that United States. Oh, no, no, no. Speaker 1: Yes, he was. Yoko Doi: Grandpa, grandpa was born in United States, but they got scared because of that you know, because it' ; s that right away, she pregnant again. So you know, it' ; s that why a year later or something, they were, he was, 19, 1902, I think, Grandpa is that you know, if I could, memory is correct, that he was born. And then that, because they cannot register he' ; s born because scared, because they don' ; t want to, government to know who they are because it' ; s that you know, oh, Mexico. They, America maybe let them return it. Grandpa didn' ; t, didn' ; t have anything, so they didn' ; t have any right to own the things. You know so that' ; s why they didn' ; t own nothing. Yeah, even the, those you know, store too, yeah. Anna Takada: When the evacuation orders went out, where did the Doi family, where were they sent to? Yoko Doi: The Gila, number two, I think. Yeah. They went to there. Yeah. And my, my mother-in-law said that, " ; Oh, Yoko-san we thought they going to kill us." ; Because is that you know something in suitcase two, and then Mikio carry the two suitcase and go in that you know, the train. And all the window is that, blacked out. You know? And everybody carried that gun and that you know? Oh, they thought they going to kill. You know but that is scary. But, Gila was is just, only thing is the sand, really sandy. Grandma say is that, Grandma means is that you know, Isamu-san' ; s that, my husband' ; s mother, is every day about three times you had to sweep because of the sand. If the sandstorm comes, sand is right there on the floor, everything. You know, so that is the only thing. But is that you know grandma say, " ; But, in my family is that you know, more likely have to be that you know, appreciated the you know, concentration camp because it' ; s that Mikio is okay, but that you know, Tetsu, the second son, he had asthma, bad, bad asthma, no matter what that you know they' ; re taking and this and this." ; And then that the doctor said, " ; Only things is you have to move to that you know dry, hot land." ; Means Gila is dry, hot land, right? And then that, but Tetsu' ; s asthma is cured there so you know that grandma say is that you know we, the government send us there. She was laughing about that you know? Yeah. Anna Takada: How old was your husband at the time? Yoko Doi: Same as, he' ; s the same as me. He' ; s six months older than me, so you know he was that, about fifth grade too. Yeah. Yeah, fifth. And fourth, Tetsu is fourth grade I think yeah. Anna Takada: And, when... Was that something that he would... It sounds like you got a lot of information from your mother-in-law. Was that something that your husband would share with you? Yoko Doi: No. My husband never share anything. Yeah. He won' ; t talk about it. I don' ; t think it' ; s that you know I know is that you know, lot of people don' ; t want to talk about the those... If I going to ask, that is the 442 too, the uncle. But that you I don' ; t think they are really open to things. And then that you know, we are inside. One lady said, " ; Yoko, I' ; m always talk about those things. Is I didn' ; t like it. I feel like I am enemy to United States and it' ; s, it feels so shame to talk about. So that' ; s why I don' ; t want to talk about." ; That' ; s my friend said it you know it' ; s that... " ; So we don' ; t want to, we don' ; t want to do something is you know " ; show up" ; things you know? It, or people to make attention. No, I don' ; t want, I don' ; t want any attention. I want to be quiet, living there." ; That' ; s I thought, " ; Oh my goodness, that is so sad a story." ; You know? Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you know at what point, because I' ; m guessing they went from camp to Chicago, is that right? Yoko Doi: Yes. Anna Takada: Do you know at what point they left? Yoko Doi: They left is that you know, after-- before the war? Anyway, it' ; s government closing that you know, that camp and then that they are going to... I think is that more likely right after October, so two, three months later, I think, they left that there. And then that Chicago is that you know... Because they want to go to California, but I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think they cannot go to California at that time, I think. Right? Anna Takada: Mhm. Yoko Doi: So they say that, " ; Okay, then you know Chicago is a good place." ; To have that, job wise, they could find a job, so they came to that way to the Chicago. And-- Anna Takada: Do you know what jobs they got or where they settled in Chicago? Yoko Doi: Yeah. They, the first time they came, it' ; s that they you know, that Wilson. They came and the Uptown area. And then that you know. And they stayed there, one, one-two little house, the apartment kind of things you know? There are two families together, two, three families together. And then that you know, I think that my husband went to the school there little while, but they cannot live like that way you know? So they, they say, " ; Okay, we going to buy the house someplace." ; And then that, they went to South Side. Speaker 1: West, yeah. Yoko Doi: Southwest side, right. Yeah. I heard right now it' ; s so bad neighbor I heard. My husband took me once that you know what kind of house that you know. It' ; s three flat that you know. And then that, they that you know, they live second floor, and then that first floor, that' ; s, Isamu-san, my husband' ; s father' ; s brother lived at the first floor. And then at the second floor and the third floor, they went to Georgia. They lived there, I think. They lived something like that. And, Isamu-san no brother, have that, they started that cleaning store, dry cleaning, cleaning, you know, those one. And wife is a really good sewer, so you know that sewing you know, and... And then that, Isamu-san have that 3M? Speaker 1: You' ; re, right. 3M. Yoko Doi: 3M. Speaker 1: The company, they make like Post-It notes. Anna Takada: Oh, sure. Speaker 1: So, it was manufacturing. Yoko Doi: Yeah. And, the manufacturing job. And then that you know, at that time, is that 3M is a big company is that you know, in there. And, the third floor one, they had some kind of small job and this and this, but that you know, they are interesting, too. That you know, have you ever heard of, chick sexing? Yeah, yeah. That, they did it. Chicago was a really big one, they have. So they did that in Chicago a little while, but that, I think the Chicago one is closed or something. And then they went to the Georgia, so that' ; s where they end up. The two uncles went. No, three uncles. Two, Isamu-san have that you know, three, four brother right? And one is Isamu-san. And one is Riku-san. is the dry cleaning, and two went to chick sexing, and the middle woman, girl, married that Asamoto, husband... three went to Georgia. So, they' ; re in Georgia right now. Anna Takada: And... Yoko Doi: Go back to the Hiroshima story, no? Anna Takada: If you want. (laughs) Yoko Doi: Why? What else you want to ask? Anna Takada: Well, I was just, I was going to ask about, I know you' ; d mentioned that your husband didn' ; t share very much, but do you have a sense of what life was like in Chicago for them when they came here? He was probably getting to high school age. Yoko Doi: Yeah, yeah. And then that you know, they had that graduation right? And then that you know, my mother-in-law said, " ; You know, that Mikio... " ; That' ; s Mikio, the, my husband' ; s name. " ; Mikio told me, ' ; don' ; t come to the graduation ceremony' ; ." ; And I-- " ; Why?" ; and then that you know, " ; Oh, no, no, they are all hakujin, and no Japanese there." ; And, my mother-in-law said, " ; What is he thinking about? Is he hakujin?" ; Because she can' ; t speak that any English, right? And then that you know, my husband said to her something like that. So you know it' ; s that, my friend say, is that you know, " ; Hard time you know, that enemy kind of things." ; You know? So, I feel like most of the people have some kind of things, and they don' ; t want to show, " ; I am Japanese" ; kind of things. I think that' ; s in the back of his head, I think you know? So, I said once that, " ; Your mother said this and this." ; Then he said, " ; Okay." ; That' ; s it, that' ; s it. He didn' ; t say anything you know? Yeah, he didn' ; t talkative person anyway you know so.... But my mother-in-law said something like that. " ; He told me, ' ; Don' ; t come.' ; " ; Anna Takada: Well, and you brought this up a few times, just the, the concept of the enemy you know, Japanese, and Japanese Americans living in the U.S. Um, when you-- I mean, when you were in Japan, did, was there a similar dynamic there in terms of views and perspectives of Americans? Like did, was, in your experience of being in Japan during the war, were there like similar ideas about the U.S. and- Yoko Doi: Oh, yeah. We called that American is that... American is... There is that this, we singing song all the time, something like " ; Ruuzu beruto no beruto ga kirete. Chachiru, chiru, chiru hana ga chiru " ; . Something like that. It' ; s, we all make fun of that, all those people, you know that loose belt. Loose belt, right? " ; Beruto" ; is you know, oh they' ; re belt is broken down so that the pants falling down. You know it' ; s, it looks a shame. And then " ; cha chiru, chiru, chiru hana ga chiru" ; hana, flower falling down. And then it' ; s " ; cha chiru" ; , right? " ; Chiru, chiru, chiru" ; , it means that the flower falling down. And so, " ; Cha chiru, chiru, chiru hana ga chiru" ; mou, that the flower falling down like that, they gonna die. And, you know, that' ; s we are singing about that you know, that enemy... Also, we are thinking about that you know, American is all hairy, and " ; oh, they' ; re not people" ; . They are more likely kichiku, means is that that you know ogre animal kinda. You know, we calling them something like that you know? So, we are, is that we, that, government tell us that, that' ; s the way that we think you know? Anna Takada: Did that affect in any way your thoughts or ideas about moving here and marrying an American? Yoko Doi: Oh, no. Before that one, she told me, or the you know, we had, I had that you know experience with that you know that American soldier when they comes in you know in the mountain when I was living in the countryside you know? And then, all the children is playing around in the yard. And then, the, we hear the some, that you know, horse coming. And then that you know, we hear the horse riding. Then, " ; What is it? What is it? Oh, American coming." ; And then, " ; Yoko, you go. You go see them, hello." ; Because they stopped at the front of... We are playing at the downstairs. And, because mountains, so another, it' ; s a bit, little bit up there is a street is there you know. There, and that you know, they stopped there. And then that you know, and all other, village people, village children, " ; Yoko, you go, you go because you coming from that Tokyo. You could speak to them." ; So I said, " ; No, not me. And that those animals, can' ; t talk." ; You know, but anyway, is that they pushing me, so well, I just went up and then that you know, " ; Hello." ; No hello, " ; Konnichiwa" ; That I said you know. And then that you know, they' ; re giving us chewing gum and chocolate! Oh my goodness, that chocolate, was so good! Tastes good! And then that the next time when we hear the " ; pak, pak, pak" ; (sounds of the horses) the you know horse coming, everybody gonna go " ; Wah!" ; " ; Chocolate!" ; So you know, in the beginning, the, they are scared because it' ; s that government telling us that you know, " ; If you see the American, run away. They going to that, rape you. They gonna, that you know, they are animals!" ; You know, that, that kind of things, you, you know, so it' ; s scared. But oh my goodness, that is the one experience, I had a good experience with American. You know, and then that you know, is that, married that Amer--. That, my, I, I didn' ; t have too much, I am not too much that you know, who' ; s who, what country. I didn' ; t have too much of that, what they call the things, that the differen-, difference? Speaker 1: Prejudice? Yoko Doi: No. I didn' ; t have too much prejudi- prejudice because I was prejudiced. I was that, you know? Because from Tokyo to, went to the countryside, I had a hard time there that you know. " ; Oh, Tokyo people. You Tokyo people." ; Because it' ; s that the countryside, Tokyo people is stuck up, and then these kind of things you know? And, that, ebatteru and kind of, they' ; re talking about you. So I had that kind of prejudiced kind of things. It' ; s, same Japanese but the things. So I didn' ; t have that you know. So I didn' ; t too much that you know problem, but I know my uncle, uncle, auntie got the problem. " ; Oh" ; , when that, we, taking to the Mikio to that you know, that, " ; Oh, he' ; s not blue eye." ; (laughs) I said, " ; He is Japanese!" ; But they thought he' ; s, he got that you know, that he came from America and blue eye and then that you know the hair is you know... So, but everybody okay, yeah. Yeah, I didn' ; t have that too much problem you know. Only things is, I am out from Japan and all my friend is in Japan you know? That is you know, the, the things. Anna Takada: When, when you heard about what happened to Japanese Americans in the U.S. during the war, what were your reactions to, to learning about their wartime experience? Yoko Doi: Um, one t- oh, yeah. It' ; s that you know, is that government had that you know 20,000, they paid it. Remember? It' ; s at that time-- Anna Takada: Redress. Yoko Doi: Yeah. Just before that one, is, they are talking about the things. It happened to have that you know, all the auntie and the uncle is came to our house to that have the dinner. Mikio told me, " ; Yoko, shut up. Don' ; t open your mouth. Cannot open any mouth in, in this meeting." ; You know, the, no- not meeting, the dinner, if they start talking you know? I said, " ; Okay, I' ; m not going to say anything." ; (laughs) Yeah. It' ; s that, you know... Is, to me, is that you know that 20000 is 20000. It' ; s okay, you know I, that doesn' ; t matter. You know, but that you know, most likely is that, they, they, they start talking is that 20000 is not enough. And then that you know, 20000 give us that too late. Because, that is, I agree, too late that government give the... Because the people who really, really fight people, and then that you know all the son is die, died in, in the war, and that the parents, the, they' ; re old, and then that you know they didn' ; t have that nobody to support. And those people had no money, and then that you know, they are suffering to die. That I agree, is government, if they going to give that 20000, little bit more before that one you know. And then that, but it' ; s that you know, more likely is officially government say, you know, " ; I am so sorry. We did wrong things." ; And more publicly, or you should put it in that you know history book, to you know, government did something like that. I thought that that is more important than the 20000. That I, I want to say it, but I didn' ; t say it. Yeah so you know is that, I know is my husband knows I am, you know is, my view is that you know is... Okay, anyway, it' ; s a war. And in any place, war is suffering people is there, a lot of people. Mostly children, is suffer a lot. You know, so that' ; s my base. You know, so 20000 and this kind of things you know, I, it' ; s okay. It' ; s that you know, government did it, you know, things like that you know. But, but to that you know, most likely when I heard that you know 442 more likely concentration camp, you know is that the 442, how they did it, and 100 battalion. That' ; s more likely. When I heard the news, I mean that story, I am crying. I am-- They did a really, really good job. That' ; s, I want to talk about it you know? Yeah... So but before that one, can I go to that you know, atomic bomb? Go back to the atomic bomb? Anna Takada: Sure. Yeah. And we can wrap up with some of the, the last stories that you want to be sure to, to record? Yoko Doi: Do 442, right? Anna Takada: Yeah. Speaker 1: We' ; re gettin' ; late on time, so make the stories a little shorter. Yoko Doi: A little shorter? Okay. That, that, grand- that, my grandpa, Yuji-san you know is the get out from the Mexico they went back to the... And he is really the m-man. And then that, he, in the village he was the only... Most likely everybody went to the w-war, you know young people, so nobody else is there. And then that you know the atomic bomb dropped is that, August 2nd, in Hiroshima, I think, in eight o' ; clock in the morning. So it means is that everybody went to the work. And, some people is that you know, not some people, most of the people, village people, his village is that you know most likely from our house is more likely is the Rogers Park to that you know downtown. That, that much that you know away from that you know that their house. And when atomic bomb was dropped, that grandpa' ; s house is that you know, the, the glass was broken " ; crrrrr" ; . And " ; Oh, this is something, something funny. And something happen." ; And everybody is so scared. And nobody came home. So in the mo- next morning. And everybody come to the grandpa. " ; Grandpa pleas--" ; no not grandpa. " ; Yuji-san, please go to that you know..." ; So he didn' ; t have that actually you know when the pika don. That, right? He never got it. But is that atomic that you know, atomic things is still ... Anna Takada: Radiation. Yoko Doi: Ah, radiation, still there. So you know, he went in there. You know, that' ; s why that you know he is with the lung cancer, he died. But that, when he, he, he told me, " ; I don' ; t know why, but I have to take this." ; That you know, usually it' ; s the cow or a horse carry- you know, holding the... What they call that in the hold... niguruma. Speaker 1: Like a wagon. Yoko Doi: Wagon, kind of. Big wagon, like you know. And he, he said he didn' ; t know why he need that one, but he took that one with... And then that long time, long distance. He walked with that one to an inn. And then he said that you know, he said, " ; When I went into that town--" ; he said he saw the hell. He saw the hell. Oh, it' ; s... " ; War is bad." ; That' ; s he thought. Because it' ; s you know August, so hot. You know, Hiroshima is hot, hot. And then that you know everybody burned. And then, everybody wear the short, short right? And then that you know, the skin, falling down from here, and then that because of the nail, the skin is falling down, dropping like this. And then everybody wants the water. And you know, that the people who didn' ; t die, they, they, konishite, " ; Water. Water." ; They, he, they could, somebody move, they could tell somebody move, I don' ; t, " ; Water. Water." ; And that hand, you know hanging down? He said, " ; Oh, my goodness. I could still, I could see it." ; And then that' ; s really, really sad. And that' ; s grandpa actually look at it. But that you know museum is there. Is that, when I married, is that, married, and then three years later, my husband send me, send me to that Japan to you know to look at that mother. She was three years old. And then that, we went to see that grandpa, grandma, too you know and-- No, grandma. Grandpa already died. So grandma. And then that, his that great-grandma. So we went to see that you know that-- And the uncle was there. So the uncle took us to that you know museum. And then that you know, just to look at the museum, and this. Because he' ; s only three years old. And you know she' ; s... And then, last year-- oh no 2014, we wen-- we went again to the Japan you know, and then we, we visited Hiroshima you know? Then, and I took her to that you know, because I, I thought that he didn' ; t remember any-- she didn' ; t remember anything. So you know she took the library... I mean that, the museum you know? And the entrance, we, I tried to get in, and she just stood. You know? She just freezed. And she said, " ; Mom, are you going to there?" ; I said, " ; Yeah. Don' ; t you want to see it, and how that you know the atomic bomb affect it?" ; She said, " ; Well, I don' ; t know." ; And I said, " ; What do you mean, I don' ; t know?" ; And she said she feels something inside, is not good place to go in to see. And all that picture, she said she don' ; t like to see. And, and when I walk up, upstairs you know... And at the time, was that some places that closed, though huh? Speaker 1: Mhmm. Yoko Doi: So we didn' ; t see everything. But that, when I go, goes up the stairway, and then there, and the big picture is-- " ; Yeah, this picture I remember ma. I remember." ; Three years old and she went... So that much is affecting the people to see this kinda... You know? And that picture is really good picture. All the, I mean that you know drawing nice. And you know, all the other things, and the children' ; s you know wearing, that the, the water. We always carrying the water. You know, that water. And the little that metal, that you know, the bottle, that cracking, and you know, all those one is in the museum. And then he, she say, " ; I don' ; t want to see. I don' ; t want see." ; So we cut off the day, cut off the time, and we get out from there. She, she, that much is three years old, she affected. That much is that you know, war and Hiroshima no the atomic bomb is bad. You know, and my uncle, talking about a uncle, uncle is that, she is saying, " ; Another one minute if I go faster, and I am that you know really is that atomic bomb, that, that pika was in me." ; But he was at Hiroshima Station. He goes, he we- he worked at you know that, Hiroshima City that you know? And when that pika don happened, he, he was still inside the station, so he didn' ; t have that directly, he didn' ; t got the things. So people who had this kind of you know the thing, the burn, and this kind of things, is directly got hit, the you know, the things, and then that you know the burning. And so it' ; s really actually the meat you could... Oh yeah, and then grandpa said, " ; Meat, meat is there, and then that there is already that worm." ; Worm? Worm? You know the fly had that- Speaker 1: Oh, like um... Anna Takada: Like maggots? Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Yoko Doi: Yeah, yeah. It' ; s, it' ; s already moving around here. You know, that kind of things you know? And, but is that, still my uncle had that you know some affected, to that you know that radiation. So good story is... Good story, it' ; s a bad story. But anyway. He had appendix. And the that you know oh, doctor say... It' ; s countryside, so you know that, only one, one doctor. And then that this doctor say, " ; Oh yeah, appendix is not that much bad. I have to go see this that you know, emergency. So okay, tonight you gonna stay home, and then that you know, tomorrow morning you come." ; And tomorrow morning his, the appendix is busted out. Then the doctor didn' ; t know what' ; s going on. And, because he said it' ; s nothing! And then that you know so he send him to that you know that big that university that hospital. And then they, they say because of the atomic, the radiation is that those things is that you know progress fast. And that he busted out. And about two, three months, I think, he had a problem with it. But he, he did, at the time, they thought in Hiroshima, they never have that green plant, and they never have that good children, everybody gonna born is that you know some kind that you know affecting radiation you know. Oh, no. But that you know good things is that, I really thankful, is not too many people affected with radiation. He has about five or six that, three boys and two girls. No, two girl-- three girls, two boys. The five children, everybody so, you know healthy, and they got a good job, and they still living there you know. So, it' ; s then the next following year is that the green came in. And oh that time was that so, " ; Green came in! Buds come into that tree!" ; All that you know Japan is so much that you know happy about it you know? That " ; Hiroshima is alive! Hiroshima is alive!" ; You know, yeah, that' ; s the kind of things is that you know sad story is that atomic bomb. So now going to the 442. Speaker 1: Okay. And you have to be fast, mom. Yeah? Yoko Doi: Okay, 442 is that you know is that, two, Doi family had two 442. It' ; s, it, and one is that he died last year. He was 91, he died. It, he was actually, he was that you know the, that France? France. And he, they rescued that you know Texas one. He was in there. And then that you know I am so you know nois-- nosy. I' ; m not nosy, but I wanted to hear all this story. I wanted to you know, what happening and that they saw. Whenever I meet this uncle, " ; How was that in the war? How was this?" ; He never, ever talk about the war. And then that you know he didn' ; t say anything. But he died last year, right? The year before, two years before, at Las Vegas. We meet at Las Vegas all the time, because it' ; s that the 442 reunion had at Las Vegas, so you know whenever we going to see that you know, when we go Las Vegas we could see the uncle. And then at the Doi family reunion it' ; s there you know. And then that you know it' ; s that the buffet time, and the reunion, and the, you know, th-this uncle started talking. And everybody, " ; What is he saying? What is, what is he talking about?" ; He talking about that you know, this experience. And, " ; What he saying?" ; And everybody so quiet and listening. And then he said, happen to have, I' ; m sitting down there, he' ; s sitting in the corner, I' ; m sitting down here, my husband is here, so I could hear everything, what is he saying. And he said, " ; I am so sh-coward. I was coward. That' ; s why I live. Everybody died. I, I live right now. And I am so shamed living right now." ; That he said. That I wanted to share. All the people there cannot say anything. " ; Oh, you are not shamed. You are not the coward." ; That is so easy to say! How much he suffered. Was that the, and my friend, his best friend among that you know, that, that group, that battalion. He guard that friend that best friend he guard, he died next to him. " ; Yoko-san, I didn' ; t know what to say to him. He, that he needed..." ; But, the war is there, fight right? So he cannot take care. So he put the all the, you know that the blanket and everything, and he wrap it up, and he took the dog tag out, because I don' ; t want that you know the enemy to take his body, and enemy to know he is who is he. So he took that dog tag, and then he went to the fight you know? " ; But I didn' ; t fight. I maybe I will hiding with that you know ditch. That' ; s why that I didn' ; t die. That' ; s why I' ; m telling, telling you guys I am coward. I am shamed to live right now. If it' ; s really I' ; m fight, I died, like my you know friend." ; Oh my goodness. I didn' ; t know what to say, uncle, is that all his life, you know 20 something he was in that fighting, 90, 80 something you know before he died, couple years before, how many years he was living like that? But he, he said that you know after the war, the that fight finish, and then coming back, and he had that you know... They have that service every Sunday, he said. And happened to have that this person he knows, so he went to service, and that is Christian, Christian (bokushi-san) pastor, he was that you know, Reverend is that you know. So he had it. And then that you know, and then that, he had a service there with him. And he, he talking to him some-something like that his feeling you know? Then he came to the Chicago, because we are in the Chicag-, that you know that, Isamu-san, and all the family is in Chicago, so he came back to the Chicago. And happened to have that pastor was in that, opened a church in Chicago, so he attending the church, and that helped me, but that you know I, I just cannot think I am really coward, and I am really you know shamed to live right now. That' ; s, you know. I- But is that, those, and 100 battalion, how they started 100 battalion. Right? They want to show that Japanese is really, that you know, we are honored Americans. That' ; s, they are started that you know that Inoue-san and all those right? 100 battalion. And it followed that 442, right? So I, I worked at some that you know lawyer' ; s office and then that, Americ-- Japanese lawyer came, and I worked to him you know. And this Japanese lawyer is a really good lawyer. And then that, he say, you know Doi-san, is that you know is that, " ; We could live here. As, a-- You know, I could live here um, makenaide, with all other, you know that other American lawyer. I could fight with them, that you know together. I, I, I, I' ; m, I didn' ; t lose. I am really you know fighting with this American lawyers you know? Because of that, it' ; s that all those Nisei people, how they fight. Japanese is that really loyal. It' ; s good, you know, that spirit." ; That, you know he said it. " ; That' ; s why we could do the business here. In Japa-- In Japanese is that more, is, in a way, it' ; s Japanese people respecting, respected from that American people, I think you know. That' ; s because of them. That' ; s you know 100 battalion, 442, all those people." ; He said, " ; Doi-san, we cannot forget them. We cannot forget them." ; Then, I read, I saw that Grandpa had the interview, and Grandpa said... Grandpa didn' ; t go to that you know oversea, but he went to the Florida to training. You know? Speaker 1: The U.S. army. Yoko Doi: Yeah. So he is that volunteer to go there. So he a spirit, too. You know so that' ; s why he said it. That you know, interviewer asking, that you know, " ; What else you wanted to say to your children?" ; And he said, " ; Honor the America. We are live in America, so love the America." ; That' ; s you know his grandpa, you know my husband' ; s father said. When I heard that one, I got, " ; Ohhh!" ; I' ; m so happy you know that the Doi family is the two, 442, you know and then that you know that Grandpa' ; s those spirit is that have to be that, love the America, honor the America, and then that you know we applaud to American, that we should keep that you know thinking about it. You know, and all of those 442 is the, the uncle. Oh, I' ; m so sad for the, when uncle say something like that. Yeah, I can, we can' ; t say anything. We cannot comfort him or nothing you know? Yeah, so that' ; s my ending. I wanted to end this, the 442, and it' ; s really, really and I am proud Doi family to serve that you know, two people serve that 442. And the second one is still he' ; s living in Georgia, 92 years old. And, but he, he was that released, released that battalion of this battalion, it you know that fighting with that you know, but he fight with that Italy, the, you know the mountaintop that you know Germany was- Speaker 1: Monte Cassino. Yoko Doi: Huh? Speaker 1: Monte Cassino. Yoko Doi: Okay. There is he fight with there. You know, yeah. So the-- he had another story there is that you know how he fight you know that' ; s you know. But yeah, he talkative person, so his talking is, that you know " ; Okay, okay. I could you know that listen." ; You know? His, his name is Mike Doi, is that I, I am so sad. That, how many people live? Right? And, how many people coming back from the fight? How many people? I bet a lot of people thinking like that, shame, living the shame, you know all the friend died or something like that you know? Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much for, for sharing all of that. Yoko Doi: I got the paper. Anna Takada: Before we wrap up, I actually do want to pose the same question to you that was asked in that video that you' ; re talking about. When you, when you think about your family, your children, maybe grandchildren, and generations to come, what is your hope for them? Or what, what would you like to, to pass along to- Yoko Doi: You know what, Anna? If you' ; re asking me something like that, I am Christian, okay? So you know all the family, children, carry that you know Christian that faith. And actually in Bible, Roman 5, that they saying is that you honor that you know your country. So whatever the country is that you know made a you know law, you have to follow that, country is America. So you know is that, Bible say is that really what Grandpa say you know? It' ; s a good things you know so... Anyway, if you asking me that question like that, I, I know I, I have to ask that my children to that you know faith have that Jesus Christ as the lord. That' ; s important for me. Anna Takada: Thank you so much, again, for coming in and speaking with me. Yoko Doi: Okay. (smiles) Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoiYoko20171021.xml DoiYoko20171021.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me
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Title
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Doi, Yoko (10/21/2017)
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Yoko Doi was born in Tokyo, Japan in 1935. The oldest of four children, she recalls an early childhood spent close to Tokyo Bay, rising patriotism in Japan, and harrowing wartime experiences of family and friends. Rather than being evacuated to a temple in Nagano prefecture with other children, Yoko was taken to her grandmother's home in Hokkaido during the war. Meanwhile, her family endured the fire bombing of Tokyo before escaping to live with her paternal relatives in Yamagata prefecture. After the war, Yoko was reunited with her family in Yamagata where she completed high school before attending a Christian university in Tokyo. After being introduced by her landlord, Yoko and her future husband Mikio exchanged letters for three years before he traveled to Japan to propose marriage. Mikio was a nisei who resettled in Chicago after his incarceration at Gila River. Yoko recounts many stories from both her family and her husband's family, including wartime experiences in Japan and in the United States.
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2017-10-21
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video
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Fujii, Sono
Fujii, Midori
Interview Keyword
Chicago Shimpo
Santa Anita
Heart Mountain
Doshisha University
San Jose, CA
Redress
Fujii, Ryoichi
Hyde Park
Postwar housing
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/9/2021 Fujii, Sono and Midori (6/9/2021) 1:37:11 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Chicago Shimpo Santa Anita Heart Mountain Doshisha University San Jose, CA Redress Fujii, Ryoichi Hyde Park Postwar housing Fujii, Sono Fujii, Midori Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|25(11)|47(13)|58(11)|87(3)|99(6)|111(8)|124(3)|143(9)|153(13)|163(1)|175(6)|187(15)|210(2)|225(2)|234(12)|246(10)|260(1)|275(5)|293(4)|305(13)|321(9)|345(5)|378(5)|398(3)|414(10)|428(7)|448(6)|460(12)|468(14)|486(8)|502(3)|513(10)|534(14)|551(11)|561(14)|573(10)|592(10)|608(7)|623(12)|633(1)|666(4)|681(2)|693(8)|706(12)|732(9)|748(6)|769(11)|783(6)|803(10)|814(12)|827(8)|837(2)|865(7)|876(1)|894(2)|907(8)|929(15)|956(15)|967(10)|978(14)|995(2)|1016(9)|1032(5)|1043(18)|1054(2)|1067(9)|1080(1)|1095(3)|1117(10)|1130(6)|1145(13)|1165(15)|1185(2)|1200(4)|1224(8)|1247(11)|1272(9)|1289(16)|1306(5)|1323(4)|1343(3)|1359(15)|1374(13)|1381(6)|1391(13)|1409(11)|1423(4)|1437(7)|1462(10)|1474(4)|1481(3)|1492(10)|1507(1)|1516(11)|1524(1)|1535(7) 0 https://vimeo.com/582590267/6aecedb9b4 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/582590267?h=6aecedb9b4" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Sisters Sono and Midori " ; Dori" ; Fujii were born and raised in Chicago in the 1950s and 60s. Their father was born in Gifu, Japan and their mother, a nisei, was born in San Jose, California. In this interview, they discuss their mother's experiences growing up in the Japanese American community in San Jose, their father's early life in Japan, and their family members' experiences of incarceration and resettlement in Chicago. Their mother was in college at San Jose State University prior to her incarceration at Santa Anita and then Heart Mountain, where she met Sono and Midori’s father, Ryoichi Fujii. The youngest of five children in a family that suffered financially after the death of his father, Ryoichi Fujii had a difficult childhood, taught himself English while apprenticing in a textile business, was accepted to Doshisha University, and eventually moved to the United States to study theology at Oberlin College. At Heart Mountain, he taught American history and government classes to other incarcerees. Following the war, he founded the Chicago Shimpo newspaper while Sono and Dori's mother worked in a number of roles, including as a social worker and a therapist. In sharing the experiences of their family, Sono and Midori want to ensure that younger generations understand the importance of this history and not let it be forgotten. They express that understanding this history is crucial as context for present-day social and political issues. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is June 9th, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee Building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln and the interviewees are Sono and Midori Fujii. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. To get us started, could you please each state your full name and your year of birth? Sono Fujii: Sono Christie Fujii, 1951. Midori Fujii: Midori Fujii, 1950. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Sono Fujii: Chicago. Midori Fujii: Both of us in Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: And is that also where you grew up? Midori Fujii: Yeah. Sono Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were your parents born and raised? Sono Fujii: Our father was born in Gifu, Japan in 1950. And our mother was, I mean, sorry, 1905. 1905, and our mother was born in 1920 in San Jose, California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And could you tell me first, a little bit about your mother' ; s family? Could you tell me where your maternal grandparents were born? Sono Fujii: Maternal grandparents... Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know when they came to the US? Midori Fujii: So, my grand, my maternal grandfather came here in the early 1900s right? He must have come in like 1910 or so? And our grandmother came in 1918, 1917, ' ; 18. Emma Saito Lincoln: So initially, your grandfather came alone. Midori Fujii: Yes. Mhm. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then was he already married and he called his wife over? Midori Fujii: No, he was not, but the marriage was through a family connection. Sono Fujii: It was an arranged marriage, but it was not a picture book marriage. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know what it was that motivated your grandfather to immigrate? Sono Fujii: We don' ; t know a lot about his family. Um, I suppose we could ask? We have one surviving aunt and one surviving uncle, but we, I don' ; t know that much. Midori Fujii: He came here, he was a businessman, which was in some ways, unusual at that time, so he came to the U.S. And then he was an insurance salesman in the Japanese American community in San Jose. Our grandmother was university-educated, very unusual at that time. She went to Doshisha. Right? Sono Fujii: I don' ; t think she went to Doshisha. Midori Fujii: Where did she go? Sono Fujii: She went to a women' ; s college. Midori Fujii: Where did she go? Okay. Sono Fujii: There' ; s, I think that' ; s in her... Midori Fujii: We should look in Issei Women it' ; s in that. Sono Fujii: Yeah. It' ; s in Issei Women or it' ; s in that book about the San Jose pioneers. I' ; ve been working on a family chronology and didn' ; t bring it with me. Emma Saito Lincoln: That' ; s perfectly alright. So in any case, she was, she was university educated-- Midori Fujii: She was. Sono Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: --which was extremely unusual. Sono Fujii: And she was Christian. Her father had been with the Japanese railroads and they were in, she spent some part of her childhood in Korea, with, working on the railroads, Japanese railroad built in Korea. I don' ; t know much about that history, I' ; m not sure it' ; s a good history, but I know she was there and she remembers the cold. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, let' ; s fast forward a little bit, and would you be able to tell me a little bit about your mother' ; s childhood in California? Do you know much about what that experience was like for her? Midori Fujii: I think we know a fair amount, just anecdotally. So she grew up, she was one of eight children, seven surviving, and the kids spanned an 18-year period. They lived next door to, what were the Okagakis to them? Sono Fujii: Mr. Okagaki was her uncle and he knew Mr. Kimura, our grandfather. He knew Mr. Kimura. I think they were somehow both involved with the Japanese newspaper in town? I' ; ve seen connection-- I' ; ve, I' ; ve seen that they were both involved... I didn' ; t necessarily put it together, but they may... Anyway, my grandmother was one of three sisters and I don' ; t know how it happened, but she was the one who came to the United States and married Toshio Kimura. And they lived together. Midori Fujii: So, the Okagakis and the Kimuras live next door to each other. I mean, literally, like no fence. Sono Fujii: There was, there was these big, there was this big house, these two big houses, and the kids sort of ran back and forth. And even when-- they sort of paired off by age. Midori Fujii: So there were, so the, there were nine Okagakis-- kids, so there were like, in all, like what, 16 kids in this like big extended family? I think the other thing that' ; s notable at that time is that there were laws against Asians owning property, correct? And I know that for our grandparents, and I' ; m assuming for the Okagakis, too, and one of the people in town signed, an American white, Caucasian citizen, signed the deeds so that the, the property was in his name and not in our grandparents' ; name. And then when my mom and her older brother-- her younger brother became of age, because they were born in the U.S., They were able to transfer title to the house. To their names. Sono Fujii: I think it, I think it went to Mom' ; s name. Midori Fujii: Mom' ; s name first. Sono Fujii: And then when she married and came to Chicago- Midori Fujii: Married, okay. Correct. You' ; re right. Sono Fujii: She transferred it to her older brother, no to her brother and then the n-next oldest sister. Midori Fujii: Right, but it was all of that sort of the land laws were like a big issue and probably one of the things that saved the house during the war when the, when people were evacuated, right? Because the house wasn' ; t in their name. So, it actually probably protected the family in a way that' ; s sort of weird. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know, other than living in very close proximity to the Okagaki family, did your mother' ; s family live within a Japanese American community? Sono Fujii: Yes. So, my grandmother, until she died, was very active in the Methodist Church. It' ; s a Japanese American Methodist church that was like two or three blocks. They lived in what is still now Japantown of San Jose. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Geographically, they' ; ve, I don' ; t know, somehow the city has mapped that out and they' ; re in that quadrant. Sono Fujii: Right. But the interesting thing about that, the school boundaries, there was just a little bit of Japantown that was in one school and there was, a majority of Japantown was in another school. And, Mom always said that she went to Jefferson School. She and the Minetas and the Okagakis, so Norm Mineta' ; s, Norman Mineta' ; s family was in that area, and Mr. Mineta was also an insurance salesman. They went to the better school and the other' ; s kids that went to a different part of, different school. It wasn' ; t as good. It was closer to the canneries. So, when we would visit, I remember visiting there in the 1960s, there was still a Del Monte processing plant, where you would hear the whistle blow and there was this big like water tower with the Del Monte sign. Midori Fujii: But I, but I would say what, what is really striking about our mom' ; s childhood and it' ; s and my grandfather, was like quite a... He has, like bo-- I don' ; t know, baskets of family video somewhere? And they had a very like typical American childhood. You know they went to the 4th of July parades, they did picnics, they went to Yosemite, they went to the ocean, my mom, you know my da-- my grandfather made ketchup in the backyard, you know it was kind of, you know a very, you know very American childhood in a lot of ways for the times. And they were also the Japanese that were living in town as opposed to the Japanese that were more doing agricultural work right? Sono Fujii: ' ; Cause that was when Santa Clara Valley was like this big fruit and vegetable basket and so there were a lot of truck farmers in, in Santa Clara Valley. Midori Fujii: So I do think that... So the backdrop to everything that happened later, in terms of the evacuation was, I mean, it was striking. So this was not a family that was like... You know, they observed Japanese custom and some holidays, but it was a very American family. My, like my mom and her siblings took piano lessons. They you know, did their school song. And, my aunt and my grandmother could still... n- my aunt and my mom would like sing their like junior high school song, you know so it was like really pretty a normal, typical American childhood and I don' ; t think it ever occurred to my mom or to her dad that anything like the evacuation could happen, um and it just, not. Although Japantown was Japantown right? It was still pretty segregated. And as I think Sono alluded to, in, she mentioned it in the write up. When my mother' ; s brother, who was I think older than her or just a hair younger- Sono Fujii: No he was, he was, she was the first born, he was born... Midori Fujii: --was born, he died within a very few days of his birth. My, our grandfather couldn' ; t bury him in the regular communit-- in the regular cemetery and needed to find a plot for him way at the edge of the cemetery in town because he was not permitted, I guess. I don' ; t know exactly what the law was, but... Sono Fujii: And I, right, right, but there' ; s a, now there' ; s a Japanese section. Midori Fujii: Yeah, in that cemetery. Sono Fujii: --in that cemetery and that' ; s where the rest of the family is buried. That' ; s where all the Okagakis and the Kimuras are buried, but Megumi is still way out. Midori Fujii: Way out by the fence. Sono Fujii: Way out by the... Midori Fujii: Literally, I' ; m serious, by the highway. Sono Fujii: --by the highway. And actually my mom, when she died, she asked that some of her ashes be buried with him ' ; cause she didn' ; t like him being there all by himself. Emma Saito Lincoln: So other than what you' ; ve already mentioned about the restrictions on property ownership and cemetery segregation, are you aware of other ways in which your mother' ; s family felt discriminated against during that time? Sono Fujii: I mean... Midori Fujii: Not directly, I think... You know, after all, so my mom was like, she was like, how old, 21 when the war started, right? In 1941. So she was the oldest of her siblings and she was in college. Sono Fujii: She was at San Jose State. Midori Fujii: She doesn' ; t really talk a lot about the racism that no doubt was present right? And some of the political stuff, in terms of the economic kind of like biases and practices that were trying to marginalize the Japanese community, in particular. You know, and I' ; m sure that everybody was aware of the, the alien laws then and the fact that her parents couldn' ; t be citizens, but I don' ; t know that that was like a front and present issue. Do you get a sense of it? Sono Fujii: I think it, I think it showed up in... I' ; m not, I don' ; t think it was like in your face all the time but I remember, I think I must have been in high school, I asked my mom if she went to her prom and she said no. And she said that one of the-- she' ; d overheard a conversation between some of the Caucasian kids that one of the Nisei boys was taking another Nisei girl and the comment was, " ; Yeah, she' ; s his girlfriend," ; and it was sort of like this sort of idea that she-- you could only ask another Nisei to prom. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I think that probably was really clear. You didn' ; t cross racial lines like that. That was probably, I think, the more... Sort of the, those norms then, were probably... Sono Fujii: And I also, I don' ; t know about how many friends she had. We don' ; t know how many friends she had or if she had friends in the Caucasian community because the families, were so... There were so many kids. Like the Okagakis were, Mr. and Mrs. Okagaki were a little bit older than my grandparents and they had, some of their older children were maybe seven or eight years older than my mother, who was the oldest. But like my mom was paired up with someone, she was paired up with Ellen and Eddie and Janet were paired up. Midori Fujii: You know so when the families would go, I mean they, when they would go, like that those pairs, but when they would go on a like a family trip, obviously you don' ; t take 16 kids. Or even if you could, they' ; re not all the same age. But they, those cohorts, like five or six of them would pile in the car and go with our grandfather, so some of the Okagakis, some of my mom' ; s. So, but they like, so Mom and Guyo and Ellen and those guys would always do something together. So, it' ; s like a, a really close cousinship right? Sono Fujii: Right. I mean, even though they weren' ; t, I mean technically... Our grandmother was cousins to the Okagaki kids but generationally, I mean, she was aligned with her aunt and uncle. But I think that also, my mom said it made my grandmother' ; s life challenging because she had to be obedient to her husband, her aunt, and her uncle. Midori Fujii: So yeah, maybe one of the things, to add is that she' ; s 15 years younger than our grandfather and that wasn' ; t that uncommon then, and that' ; s the age difference between our parents. Emma Saito Lincoln: So your grandmother was 15 years younger than your grandfather, and then your mother also was 15 years younger than your father. Midori Fujii: Correct. Emma Saito Lincoln: And so I' ; m getting the sense that you' ; re not quite sure how much social interaction or friendship your mother had outside of that large familial unit because there were so many children. Midori Fujii: Yeah you know what? I think the thing that it, the way I would say is notable by its absence is their conversation about relationships outside of that cohort or pictures of people outside. Sono Fujii: But we don' ; t have a, we don' ; t have a lot of pictures of their growing up? Midori Fujii: Well, there' ; s, Juni has a lot. They did in San Jose. There' ; s a lot of albums there. And then there' ; s a lot of like photography, like video, whatever you call it, motion picture right on those, on those slides, and the big reels, but those are all of family and Japanese holidays and the 4th of July. And I think one of the things that my mom talked a lot about was building floats for the 4th of July, ' ; cause it' ; s California right, and you can just put flowers and everything on them, and so that was kind of a big deal. Emma Saito Lincoln: So let' ; s fast forward a little bit. You mentioned that your mother was in college when Pearl Harbor happened, and... Midori Fujii: Wasn' ; t she at San Jose State? Sono Fujii: She was at San Jose State. I actually just saw this last night in the materials that you brought over. There was her transcript from, I don' ; t know it was from San Jose State... It said that she was enrolled in the spring semester at San Jose State in 1942 and she withdrew on May 27th, 1942, but she was granted like 10 and one quarter credit hours for the work that she' ; d completed. And it' ; s like, " ; Yeah, that' ; s when she was shipped off to Santa Anita." ; Midori Fujii: Well, of note they, where they sent the transcript was to her father in Heart Mountain. That' ; s the mailing address on the transcript. Sono Fujii: The mailing, it says that your guardian and it gives his name and his barrack address and that just like, that' ; s just like... devastating. Emma Saito Lincoln: What year was she in school? Was she quite close to graduating at that point? Sono Fujii: She went to ... What' ; s the other thing we saw, I saw last night? She went to NYU. She was, she had attended school at NYU and I think this was stuff that she asked for when she applied to go to graduate school in the early 1960s, so she' ; s got these transcripts. You know-- Midori Fujii: So she left camp, I think, to go to, to NYU. You could leave, right? You could leave Heart Mountain if you had a place to go that wasn' ; t in the Western command. So I think she went first, I think she went to NY-- to New York, and then she went to Cleveland and worked for the American Friends Service Committee. I think that' ; s the sequence, right? Sono Fujii: I' ; m not sure. I haven' ; t gotten that far, but there' ; s- Midori Fujii: Something like that. Sono Fujii: But there' ; s, but yeah, I was surprised to see that she' ; d gone to NYU. I was like, " ; I didn' ; t know that." ; Midori Fujii: Not for long. Sono Fujii: But like maybe, but she definitely left from... And she left camp before Daddy did. She left before he did, which surprised me to read that. But I think he was doing work with the WRA in camp. Midori Fujii: Correct. And I think she graduated from San Jose State. Sono Fujii: Yes. Her diploma is from San Jose State. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. So maybe the credits that she received after leaving camp were applied toward her degree at San Jose. Sono Fujii: Right, they transferred. Emma Saito Lincoln: So let' ; s back up a little bit then, to, to Pearl Harbor. And you mentioned Santa Anita and then Heart Mountain. Did her whole family go together? Sono Fujii: Yes. Midori Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: And the Okagaki family, also? Sono Fujii: No. One of the Okaga--Two of the Okagakis, so... Henry was the oldest Okagaki son. He had already, I think he' ; d married and he was a doctor? He was not there. He did not get evacuated. Midori Fujii: Who? Sono Fujii: Henry. Midori Fujii: Henry? Sono Fujii: Henry and Martha. Midori Fujii: Yeah, he was in Wisconsin and somebody else was in Denver. Sono Fujii: That was Guyo , Guyo married Larry Tajiri, who was the... Midori Fujii: Rocky Mountain Shinbun, right? Sono Fujii: No, I thought the Pacific Citizen. Midori Fujii: Pacific. Okay. Sono Fujii: Pacific Citizen. And they, they were in either Salt Lake City or in Denver and I think, I think I have a memory of when they were being transported from Santa Anita to Heart Mountain. They may have seen Guyo and Larry like at the train station or something. Midori Fujii: So the only reas-- every, all the younger Okagakis were, went to Heart Mountain. It was only the, the people that were old enough not to be in San Jose when this happened. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. I' ; d like to pick up the thread on incarceration in a little bit. But first, I' ; d, I' ; d like to talk about your father and his story and how he came to the U.S. So, let' ; s start with, what could you tell me about your father' ; s family in Japan? Midori Fujii: You want me to do that? Sono Fujii: You can, sure. Midori Fujii: So our dad was one of five children, and the only boy. Sono Fujii: And the youngest. Midori Fujii: The youngest of five and the only boy. He was born, his dad, he was what, 15 months or two years or something like that when his dad died, leaving a lot of debt. Sono Fujii: Yeah his, his dad had co-signed for debt for some of his workers. His dad owned a... My father described it as a transportation company, but really, it was like a rickshaw company, where you know people... It wasn' ; t a taxi. It was a human taxi. Midori Fujii: So, I think one of the things that' ; s really notable is my, our dad almost never talked about his childhood. It was only when we were like in college, even. And I finally said to my dad, " ; You just have to talk to us a little bit. We don' ; t know anything." ; And I think we knew a little from our mom. His childhood was, was extremely difficult. They were extremely poor. So the things that we knew about my dad were like anecdotal. Like, he had malnutrition illnesses when he was a kid. And so we knew he had beriberi, but you know because you' ; re a kid, you' ; re like, okay whatever. Sono Fujii: --said he had tapeworms. Midori Fujii: He had, yeah, parasites, a lot of different things. And we knew, and then as we got older, we knew that some, several of his sisters had died before they really reached adulthood. And so he really didn' ; t talk a lot about some of that history because it was, I think, so difficult. And it, so he was apprenticed... In Japan at that time, public school was only free until, I guess you were in- Sono Fujii: Sixth grade. Like sixth grade. Midori Fujii: Middle school, sixth grade, something like that. And my dad writes in his, in the little letter that, in some of the correspondence that he wrote to us, that, you know he was a bright kid and he was respected in his class. But when he was in sixth grade, he couldn' ; t go forward because he had-- Sono Fujii: His mother couldn' ; t afford to send-- Midori Fujii: His mom couldn' ; t afford to send him. So she apprenticed him to a silk merchant. And I think that was like, he writes about that as being deeply upsetting and feeling, I think very left behind. Sono Fujii: And, and very angry. Midori Fujii: Yeah. So, don' ; t know a lot about those years except that he studied and went-- He didn' ; t go to school, but he studied English and he studied whatever he needed to study to pass the college entrance exams. Sono Fujii: Right so... So I' ; ve found- Midori Fujii: That part you found. Sono Fujii: That part I found. He was apprenticed to a silk merchant in Kyoto in what I think is the Nishijin district, which is known for its weaving. And it was very, very hard work. And he was expected to work like six days a week until 10 o' ; clock at night. And so he became, I don' ; t know how, but he somehow connected with the local Christian Church there and learned that Doshisha University would accept people if you didn' ; t have, you didn' ; t have to have a middle school and high school education diploma to get into, into Doshisha but you needed to learn English. You needed to know English. And so because he had to work until 10 o' ; clock at night, he couldn' ; t, he couldn' ; t go to night school. So he took correspondence classes to learn English. And he told the owner of the store that he was doing this to, to improve the business prospects for the store. I mean he' ; s... So that he could get the owner to support him doing this. But he talks about studying at night with his kimono over his head so that he wouldn' ; t disturb the other apprentices and the other people. And I think he came to understand that there wasn' ; t a lot of future there because it was probably very tightly controlled. I don' ; t know if there was a system of guilds or apprenticeships or... But there wasn' ; t a lot of opportunity. He said you could stay in the same position for years and years and-- Midori Fujii: There wasn' ; t that mobility in Japan in general at that time. Sono Fujii: Right. So he, for him to have gone to, to university was, it took an incredible amount of discipline. Midori Fujii: It also crossed a line with his mother because she' ; s, was a devout Buddhist. And he is now, Christianity was sort of the, sort of path to education at that time in some ways. So, and I think he was just interested in it. Sono Fujii: Right. But she was a very, she was a very devout Buddhist. Midori Fujii: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Sono Fujii: I mean, to the extent of when, when my dad was younger, the French Air Force was helping the Japanese develop their air force. And he got very interested and he would go and he would watch. And I actually did a little research on this and there was like a, an airbase nearby and there still is an airbase, I think near Gifu. And I think his grades slipped. And his mother said to him, " ; How can I face your father in paradise?" ; It' ; s like, oh. Midori Fujii: Just don' ; t have anything on Catholic guilt huh? Sono Fujii: Just like Catholic guilt, Jewish guilt. Midori Fujii: Buddhist guilt. There you go. Sono Fujii: Buddhist guilt. Emma Saito Lincoln: So it sounds like through sheer determination and discipline, your father as a self-taught man was accepted into Doshisha University. And what did he study there? Do you know? Sono Fujii: It was a Christian Protestant school. That was, I mean, it had a lot of connections with American universities. I mean, I think you were mentioning Amherst and-- Midori Fujii: And Oberlin. Sono Fujii: And Oberlin. And he... He, he did... You were talking about the, the conflict with his mom about going to... This conversion to Christianity. And she, she went and talked to her priest and he, he gave it his blessing. And so his mom was okay with it because I think he said he' ; s, he' ; s you know advancing his education and you know it' ; s to make him a better person. So he came to the United States in-- Midori Fujii: Well, I think there' ; s like, there' ; s another piece in there. So then he was in, he had to do a, what a, I guess what we would call an internship now. And he worked in some of these very extremely impoverished communities in Japan. Sono Fujii: That was the Nishijin Weavers. Midori Fujii: Was that where he worked in that community as a minister? Sono Fujii: Yeah. Midori Fujii: Okay. Sono Fujii: Yeah. Midori Fujii: But he said, so this is in one of his letters, that he became really disillusioned with the church. That, that the church really didn' ; t have the answers of like, you know in the life hereafter. And you just have to like- Sono Fujii: You have to suffer. Midori Fujii: You have to suffer. Sono Fujii: And then you get your reward when you die. Midori Fujii: And he just thought that that was like, that the church had nothing to offer the people who he was trying to minister to. And I think that was one of the reasons he came to the U.S. He thought that by coming to, to the theology school and working on his master' ; s degree in theology, that he would find some answers. So then he did come to the U.S. I think in 1931, Oberlin had an exchange program. I think they still do with some of the, the Japanese universities. I don' ; t know if it' ; s, the Shansi program is there now. I don' ; t know if he was part of that or what it was. But he came to Oberlin and eventually earned his master' ; s degree in divini-- in theology. But never became ordained because in part, he decided that in fact the church, even though he had a master' ; s and was working on a theology degree also did not have a great deal to offer people who were... he was pretty disi--, I think pretty disillusioned. I don' ; t know whether that' ; s the word. Not a fan of that. So he stepped away. Emma Saito Lincoln: So he comes to the, he comes to the U.S., he gets his master' ; s in theology, and then he steps away from, from the church. Where was he living when Pearl Harbor happened? Sono Fujii: So, so there' ; s like from 1934 to 1941 we' ; re talking about. So he' ; s in Oberlin in 1934, and at that time he' ; d already become very, very opposed to the rise of militarism in Japan. And apparently there were a lot of heated discussion groups at Oberlin among some of the Japanese students there. Midori Fujii: Because the Manchurian invasion was in like the-- Sono Fujii: There was Manchurian, the Mukden bridge incident. And I mean, he writes about how he, he had intended, his plan was to return to Japan even though he didn' ; t like what was going on there. But he had to make money to earn his return fare. And so he had worked in New York at restaurants in the summers and he went back to New York and was working there. Midori Fujii: So, so the thing that' ; s... The other thing that sort of fits in here is that he didn' ; t come to the United States as Ryoichi Fujii, right? He came here as Katsu Asano. And I don' ; t know exactly when he, when in that period, but it would' ; ve been in that period. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: He decided to change his name and overstay his student visa. Sono Fujii: He also joined the American Communist Party. Midori Fujii: Right. Sono Fujii: Because it was the only-- Midori Fujii: Vocal group? Sono Fujii: Vocal group against Japanese militarism. And I also think that you know his experiences in Japan with the workers, the weavers, really sort of led him more to, more sympathetic to that than unbridled capitalism. So, he' ; s in the American Communist Party in New York, and then he gets to Los Angeles. Midori Fujii: God knows how, right? Sono Fujii: I don' ; t know how. I mean, I' ; m still piecing that together. And I, and he becomes involved with the party there as well. And I' ; m not exactly sure what he' ; s doing there. Is he working in a restaurant? Is he working in Japantown? Where is he living? I don' ; t know. But anyway, he' ; s in Los Angeles when Pearl Harbor happens and he' ; s sent to Santa Anita. Emma Saito Lincoln: So your mother' ; s family and your father all ended up in Santa Anita. Sono Fujii: Right. And that' ; s where they met. Midori Fujii: Actually, I think our dad met our grandmother first. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Because he was teaching American history classes? Sono Fujii: American history, American government. And he, he felt that it was important-- He always, I mean because he was opposed to militarism, he always felt that America was a better solution, was you know, the answer. And he wanted the Issei to understand more about America, American history, and American government. And so he started teaching these classes. But, and this what' ; s so interesting, we still have his books from that era and- Midori Fujii: Books he purchased. Sono Fujii: Books he purchased on American history and on American government. And, and some of them, I mean we, I can tell by the copyright date, the publication date that they would' ; ve been you know pre-war or during that time. And some of them even have his name and his barrack address from like Heart Mountain or Santa Anita. So that makes me happy to know that this would' ; ve been one of his sources. And years later, Henri Mom, Mrs. Okagaki, the kids, she was called Henri Mom for Henry' ; s mom told me that when she was in camp, she would go to my dad' ; s lectures. And she said, " ; And we called him sensei." ; It' ; s like, okay. Midori Fujii: So the books are books on Lincoln, Jeffersonian democracy, Thomas Payne. What are the other ones in there at that period? The Federalist Papers. Just a bunch of like really you know classic sort of American history kind of. Emma Saito Lincoln: And he was teaching these classes both at Santa Anita and at- Midori Fujii: At Heart Mountain. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Primarily to the Issei. Sono Fujii: Yeah, to the Issei. Emma Saito Lincoln: Now your mother and father met at Santa Anita. Did they kind of strike up with each other right away? Midori Fujii: Did they meet at Santa Anita? Sono Fujii: They must have. Midori Fujii: Well, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know where exactly they met. Sometime during the war through her mom. Sono Fujii: Through her mom or her dad. Midori Fujii: Yeah. And her mom was like not, not a f- said he' ; s too much older. I think partly because that' ; s her experience. But they liked him. I mean, he was like respectable enough. Sono Fujii: And he was, he was not that much younger than she was. Midori Fujii: Who? Sono Fujii: Daddy was-- Daddy. I mean, Daddy was born in 1905. Grandma was born in like, 19-- 1898, 1897, something like that? So I know that when they wanted to get married, she was a little bit, she was a little concerned because she' ; d been widowed so young and she didn' ; t want that to you know, happen to my mom and have seven kids. Midori Fujii: So I think the other thing in terms of the war, our mom was like devastated by the evacuation and the war. And I think my dad, our dad, not so much. He was like, kind of like, that' ; s what governments do. I don' ; t think he, for a number of reasons, of course, number one, he' ; s not a U.S. citizen. He' ; s not born here. Sono Fujii: He doesn' ; t have family here. Midori Fujii: He doesn' ; t have family here. But also he grew up in, in militaristic Japan, right? Where governments did whatever. And so I don' ; t think, he didn' ; t experience a sense of betrayal that my, our mom and grandfather experienced. It' ; s very different. I mean I think he believed in this country and that kind of thing, but I don' ; t think it undermined him in the same way. I think his, the challenge that he had was not going back to Japan ' ; cause he left his mom, her only son, and he never returned. And she died before, you know during the war or shortly thereafter. So you know that sort of, in terms of his history, I would think that' ; s probably the sort of the defining moment is not going back, not taking care of her, not reassuring her. Because he remembers her saying goodbye to him and at the har-- at Yokohama Harbor. And that' ; s like, I think a searing moment for him. And I don' ; t think he, he never recovered from that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Right. Because in the lead up to the war he was in Los Angeles and, and trying to save up money to return to Japan, is... You think? Midori Fujii: Yeah. Sono Fujii: I don' ; t know when he gave up the idea of returning to Japan. I do know that at one point the party asked for his passport and he gave it to them. And I think at that point, that' ; s when he became undocumented, illegal, whatever. And that plus his joining the party were what, was the basis for the, his arrest in 1953. Midori Fujii: So I think he changed his name in LA, right? It wasn' ; t in New York. I don' ; t know. It was one of those like weird things. Like, pick a name and then he picked a name. Didn' ; t seem like it was a real thought through. Right? Sono Fujii: Ryoichi though, I think the name, the name has significance though. It' ; s Ichi is number one. Midori Fujii: Okay. Sono Fujii: So, I' ; m not sure what the kanji are. Midori Fujii: But so he was known as Bob Fujii and I know that was- Sono Fujii: Because I think Ryoichi was just way too hard for Americans to pronounce. Midori Fujii: So like, just call me Bob or Robert or whatever. So it was just one of those, how did that happen? Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were growing up, did you know that your father had changed his name at some point? Sono Fujii: I didn' ; t know until I was in high school. And it was... You' ; d found out earlier. Midori Fujii: I don' ; t think so. Sono Fujii: Mmmmm, I thought you' ; d found out earlier, you' ; d seen some papers or something? Midori Fujii: Yeah, not really. I don' ; t think so. I mean if it was, it' ; s like one of those things that just doesn' ; t register at that age, you' ; re in high school, you just immigration and all that is, it' ; s not front and center in the conversation. But back then, not so much. We knew vaguely kind of about the, the deportation hearings and that kind of thing, but it-- Sono Fujii: I didn' ; t, all I knew was that daddy wasn' ; t working anymore. We were eating a lot of grilled cheese and tomato soup and he was home. Midori Fujii: Right. That' ; s what we knew. Sono Fujii: That' ; s what we knew. Emma Saito Lincoln: And this is after the war? Correct? During your childhood. Sono Fujii: Right. So he' ; s arrested in 1953. And I think it' ; s not until 1956 that the deportation proceedings are finally finished. I mean, they' ; re put behind the, the officer renders his decision and they suspend deportation proceedings. Which is another long story. Midori Fujii: So we' ; ve jumped ahead here. Emma Saito Lincoln: Yeah, let' ; s, let' ; s back up a little bit to when everybody' ; s still in camp. Midori Fujii: Okay. Emma Saito Lincoln: And you mentioned a sense of betrayal that your mother and grandfather felt, and I' ; m wondering if you could expand on that a little bit. What do you know of, of their time in camp and how they felt about it? Sono Fujii: So when they got to, I think this was Heart Mountain. When they got to Heart Mountain, they were a family of nine. So two, two parents, my mother who would' ; ve been 20- Midori Fujii: 22. Sono Fujii: 22, by that time, late, 21, 22. And Yo who would' ; ve been six or seven maybe? Midori Fujii: No, she was born in ' ; 37. Sono Fujii: So she would' ; ve been five. In a one bedroom, in a one room. And that just wasn' ; t going to work for my mother. And both, I heard from several, several members of the family that my mom went down and she demanded more space and she got it. I mean, she just wasn' ; t going to put up with it. And she, she got more space for the family. Was still not a lot of space, but my fath- our grandfather had a correspondence with, I think her name was Nancy Cotherine. Midori Fujii: Nancy Cotherine, Nancy Storm? Sono Fujii: He had a correspondence with a friend on the outside. Midori Fujii: Caucasian. Sono Fujii: Caucasian, and I... Midori Fujii: Those, there are a number of letters. Sono Fujii: There are a number of letters which, she gave to my mom and me. She' ; d saved them. And we don' ; t have her side of the correspondence, but we have his correspondence. And she gave it to us in 1972 and we donated it to the Hoover Institute. So that correspondence now is there. Midori Fujii: We might have copies of it here. Sono Fujii: We do, we definitely have copies of it. But he speaks very clearly about his sense of betrayal. And one of his quotes was used in that- Midori Fujii: " ; Then they came for..." ; Sono Fujii: " ; And then they came for me" ; , the exhibit that was here. It said, ' ; I never thought I' ; d see my children behind barbed wire.' ; And it was like Toshio Kimura. And it was like, " ; oh my God" ; . And he died. He got his family back and he was dead within a month. Just, killed him. Midori Fujii: So I think that like if I think about our, that family, like the war was devastating. I think that other families have, other people have written about the way in which the, they way in which camp was set up and the, the dining situation and that kind of thing really destroyed the family unit. ' ; Cause, and particularly the, the people that would' ; ve been affected by that would' ; ve been our uncles are, who were sort of in that eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 age where they' ; re just old enough to be out and running around. And I think that the boys for probably reasons of that and also some of the prejudice against Asian men, that kind of thing, were really, really impacted by the war in a way that was, I don' ; t think we really understand all that at this point. Sono Fujii: And that, and that their father died. Midori Fujii: And then upon return home, their dad died within a month. So, and so now their mom is like, you know she is a, she' ; s a widow. She' ; s caring for kids, like five kids, right? Or four kids of school age or high school. The older kids would' ; ve been my mom, my, her older, her younger... The oldest three were old enough to be out. But the, the two younger boys and my aunt, particularly, were at home. And they have been, you know they' ; re the ones that came back to the house, and the racism and the prejudice and everything else that occurred, I think, post-war in San Jose and certainly were old enough to have been aware of that right before they were, they were evacuated. You know not old enough to be... I think as like young adults-- my mom was a young adult, more outraged. I think that was my mom' ; s perspective, right? Much more, she was much more angry than she was harmed by that. But I think the younger kids, if you just think about how that, that kids input that at that age, very difficult, and our grand-- I don' ; t know that my grandparents talked that much about it with them. My mom remembers her mother saying on the day they left, " ; It' ; s a beautiful day to be leaving home." ; That' ; s all she said. It' ; s like, the place is falling apart and that' ; s sort of that understated you know gaman. Sono Fujii: Yeah, shikata ga nai. Midori Fujii: Yeah, so-- Emma Saito Lincoln: So, that' ; s what she said the day they left their home to go to Santa Anita. Midori Fujii: They left, they left San Jose. That' ; s correct. Sono Fujii: " ; It' ; s a beautiful to be taking a journey." ; Midori Fujii: Yeah, so you know that there are things that didn' ; t get processed in the midst of all of that, right? Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you think you saw in your uncles and your aunt the after effects of that, now as, you know as adults, yourselves looking back on what you experienced with them? Midori Fujii: You know, only you can only infer that. Sono Fujii: And, and also you know, we were here. We were in Chicago. They were in, in California. Midori Fujii: But I do think some of-- Sono Fujii: Travel wasn' ; t that easy and certainly we didn' ; t have the money to go to, to California. I mean we saw, there' ; s pictures of mom taking us there when we were like toddlers and then we went in ' ; 60 and ' ; 63. Midori Fujii: So, I mean I have, I have a real clear opinion about that and I don' ; t feel like, that' ; s personal. That' ; s their story. And I don' ; t feel I can share that, other than to say that I think it profoundly affected them and was negative. The one thing I could say is that my uncle, who never married and was really very private and very much sort of his own person for a long time, he, he had cancer in the end of his life and he finally let some of the wall down. And the, the memories that he has of his childhood and being with his dad are just, you know they' ; re lovely memories. But it' ; s kind of heartbreaking, in the, knowing the entire context of the loss that he experienced and the absolute, I think real absence of acknowledgement of that loss right? Because after the war, everybody comes home and it' ; s a crisis. My grandmother is just trying to survive. And you know he went on to be, I mean he was like stupidly smart. He got a patent for torpedoes or something from UC Berkeley. I mean it' ; s like we went through his stuff after he died and it' ; s like you know he never shared any of it. Sono Fujii: " ; Who knew this stuff? Who knew this?" ; Midori Fujii: He was just really private about it! Sono Fujii: He has a, he has a patent for anti-roll technology. Midori Fujii: You know it' ; s like all this stuff that, and the family is like, " ; Well, who knew?" ; Right? But I think it was, you know just, I don' ; t know that people felt like they could speak up in that. I think that there was a lot of that there' ; s just too much else going on to have those conversations. So, but I would say that was, you know, we always thought that that was probably what happened, but that was a kind of a window in. But it really took, he was in his eighties when he did some art therapy and somebody said to him, " ; We need to work on this. Like, let' ; s, let' ; s do this so you can be more at peace." ; And, and he was able to do that and yeah it' ; s like, that was a gift for him for sure. Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Let' ; s switch back a little bit to your, to your mother, and also let' ; s shift forward into the postwar resettlement period. You were describing how your, your mother, partly due to what age she was when this all happened, was able to be angry about it in a way that her siblings weren' ; t. And I-- Midori Fujii: Angry and vocal. Emma Saito Lincoln: And vocal. Which plays into how history plays out later, correct? Midori Fujii: Yes. Sono Fujii: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Could we talk a little bit about that and your mother' ; s role in, in the redress movement? Sono Fujii: Um, so this would' ; ve been in the... Midori Fujii: 70s. Sono Fujii: 70s and early 80s. I have to admit, I was not, I was not hooked into what really she was doing. Midori Fujii: I don' ; t know how she got connected with William Hohri and that group, but she was. Sono Fujii: But she was and we know she gave testimony at the commission here in Chicago. Midori Fujii: She worked, she worked pretty hard with NCJAR. She has a lot of, like I would just remember a lot of conversations. But it seemed like, I think one of the things probably should comment on is that for a lot of sansei, they never really heard about the evacuation growing up, of the internm-- any of that. That was not a conversation that happened in their families, not so in our family. Sono Fujii: I mean, we definitely knew about it. Midori Fujii: Yeah. Sono Fujii: I mean, and enough so, enough so that I did a lot of research in, in college and in graduate school on it. Midori Fujii: But even as little kids right? So my mom, our mom was like pretty... I don' ; t know. Whatever you, I don' ; t know what word you would use to describe her. Sono Fujii: Vocal. I mean, she didn' ; t- Midori Fujii: Vocal, yeah but-- Sono Fujii: We knew about it. We knew that they had met there. We knew that her father had died. Because that was the only thing that made her cry. Midori Fujii: Right, I think that was the notable thing, as kids. Sono Fujii: That was the only thing that made her cry. Midori Fujii: But every time she talked about it. And she, so she wasn' ; t like a tearful person. You know that was like, a lot of things could happen and there wasn' ; t, she was dry eyed, but not this. So I think that, and you know, as a kid, you flag that as notable. And also didn' ; t realize that other families weren' ; t talking about this. Sono Fujii: Right. I mean and when we, even within her extended family. So when we went to Heart Mountain in 2015 and some of the, the sansei Okagaki were there. And this was like, this was the first time we really spent time with them, just because you know they were there. They were all... We didn' ; t grow up there. And I remember one of the Okagaki cousins saying that he didn' ; t know anything about the evacuation until he was taking piano lessons with June, our aunt. She, she gave piano lessons in the family parlor and you know I guess the Okagakis got sent over there for piano lessons. And um, she said-- he said to, he said to me, he said, " ; That' ; s how I learned about it." ; I said, " ; Your parents never talked to you about it?" ; He said, " ; No, I had not a clue." ; I mean these were, Scott is Craigy' ; s son, right? Midori Fujii: Yeah. He' ; s 60, yeah 65. I think the other thing is, when we grew up, so the Japanese, one of the areas that the Japanese resettled was in Hyde Park. right? And there were, I don' ; t think we understood that, that connection as kids. Like that was really part of Resettlers. I think that piece was just, you know there were other, some Japanese in Hyde Park. Not that many, but a fair amount, a number. And um, so that' ; s the, I think, and my, and our dad worked at the Shimpo then at that time, so... Emma Saito Lincoln: So let' ; s talk a little bit more about your growing up years then. And it, it does sound as though you, much more so than some others of your generation, were exposed to this history. Midori Fujii: We were, but we weren' ; t really an integral part of the Japanese community either, which was really odd. So my mom really had stepped away from that in some ways. I don' ; t really understand all of that. Our dad was involved in it, obviously because he was working at the Shimpo. And what-- Sono Fujii: Since there were financial costs for that. Midori Fujii: Yeah, for sure. But he would, you know he was involved with the Japanese community and the faith community more, not as a minister. But, but really was, you know we weren' ; t like sort of an integral part of that. I think one of the things, some of the, our classmates and I, I' ; ve talked with them a little bit about it as like we' ; ve gotten older and they said, " ; Oh yeah, we went to Cub Scouts with all the other sansei." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Really? You did that? I didn' ; t know that was going on." ; Well obviously- Sono Fujii: Well we wouldn' ; t have gone to Cub Scouts. Midori Fujii: We wouldn' ; t have gone to Cub Scouts. Sono Fujii: There weren' ; t, but there weren' ; t-- we were not aware of nisei or sansei-based social organizations. There was not, as far as we knew, a, a nisei church. Although there obviously were. I think, you know my-- Midori Fujii: We went to the picnics, we went to natsu matsuri. Sono Fujii: We went to those. Midori Fujii: For sure. Yeah. Sono Fujii: And then I also think that there was a, there was a real concerted effort. I mean when you read the, the history, I mean there were, when people left the camps, they were instructed not to be clannish. Not to be... Midori Fujii: To assimilate. Sono Fujii: They were told to assimilate and not to stick with their own kind and they should, they should stay away from... You know like, we didn' ; t-- There were no Japanese language schools here. We weren' ; t taught Japanese. Japanese was spoken if my parents didn' ; t want us to understand. Midori Fujii: There were Japanese schools, but not around us I think. Sono Fujii: I mean maybe there was more so on the north side? But we certainly... And I think that was like a source of friction in their marriage, too. My parents' ; marriage. That he was so involved in the Japanese community and not making a ton of money with the paper. My mom had to go back to work and I think at one point they had to take a, they had to ask one of her brothers for a loan, which I-- Midori Fujii: I think, so the other thing, you know, I guess there are a number of things. One is that because of just their background, we grew... Hyde Park is Hyde Park in Chicago and it' ; s a pretty activist community. So I remember growing up and being real involved, my parents being fairly involved in the civil rights movement and being aware of what was going on in terms of the Chicago school boycotts and that kind of thing. The other thing is that, I had thought this to be the case and then we just read through some of my dad' ; s correspondence, and I think it' ; s fair to say that his, that the paper was his ministry in, in this way, that he, when he was in camp, he really, there was a big move to try and encourage people to leave, to say, " ; You don' ; t have to stay here." ; But my dad felt like, people can' ; t come to Chicago without knowing anything. And so he was part of the Resettlers, and I think he was also part of like... he said, " ; But a community needs some way of communicating, and, and a paper is, you know, that' ; s the way to do that." ; And so I do think that, so one of his correspondence with somebody that was one of his witnesses for the deportation does allu-- does say that directly. You' ; re working in your community is, that is your ministry. You have done your work, it' ; s just been in a different way than you were originally planning. And I do, I do think that that was really very true. I also think that my dad' ; s sense of where he came from, in terms of, and the guilt he carried for leaving Japan and not going back. His, he did say one time something like, " ; I don' ; t ever want to be too comfortable." ; Like, the idea of becoming materially sort of settled. I think that that was really, he was very conflicted about that. My mom wasn' ; t. Our mom wasn' ; t. She grew up in a... she was as Sono said, we' ; re not wealthy but an established family. They had a house. They had some ownership. Sono Fujii: They had a car, yes. Midori Fujii: A car. You know those kinds of things. And so, but after the war, my dad had never had that. They came to Chicago, and I remember we, we lived in a, would' ; ve been kind of what we would call now, like well it was not really quite a one bedroom apartment. It was like a kitchen, dining room, living room altogether and then a little room off the side and a bathroom down the hall. So they didn' ; t.. When we were very young, just, just even bathing and that kind of thing, I mean if you' ; re a kid, you' ; re in the kitchen sink. If you' ; re my mom, you' ; re down the hall. And that was like, I don' ; t think that it bothered my dad in the same way. Right? I mean why would it? He was a single man, then he went to camp. My mom grew-- our mom grew up in a house, and camp was like an outrage to her. But then, you know and then she came to Chicago and married and she' ; s now going down the hall to have to go to the bathroom and have a congregate situation. They moved eventually, like not short after that, to a, a house with, that had a bathroom and a, a full bathroom within the house. But, for us that was not a big deal. But I' ; m sure for her, can' ; t imagine. Sono Fujii: Right they, they, they I mean, part of it was that the post-war housing shortage, right So a lot of these big apartments were split into multiple units. But I think the first two places we lived in were, were apartments that had been split. You know, and it wasn' ; t until 1960- Midori Fujii: ' ; 60. Sono Fujii: ' ; 60 or so that they had their own bedroom. I mean they slept on the sleeper sofa in the living room and we had the bedroom. And I mean I remember like when it was, when it would be raining and there would be big thunder, you and I would like try to go out there and crawl underneath the sleeper sofa ' ; cause we were scared. And she would say, " ; Go back to your room." ; Midori Fujii: Right, under the view that if lightning strikes it strikes you first, I guess. (laughs) Sono Fujii: But I mean I also think it was, it was also a sense of, you know, it was a privacy issue. You know? Midori Fujii: Yeah, I think they just, right, it was also like you know pull yourself, it was that like American metho-- thing about kids need to like, sleep in their own beds, that whole mentality, too. It probably was a privacy thing but... Emma Saito Lincoln: What would you say are some of the values that your parents tried to instill in you? Sono Fujii: Honesty, hard work. Midori Fujii: I don' ; t even think it was like talked about. Right? I don' ; t think. I don' ; t really- Sono Fujii: There was nothing, there was nothing, I mean, we didn' ; t go to church. We weren' ; t-- Midori Fujii: Well, we went to church eventually under our own steam, but... Sono Fujii: Right, but we didn' ; t grow up in a congregation where you were told to be a good Christian. Midori Fujii: It' ; s like my daughter said to me one time, she goes, " ; We didn' ; t have rules growing up." ; And I said, " ; What are you talking about?" ; And I said, " ; What about share, be kind, you know be honest, like work hard?" ; Sono Fujii: I think it was modeled. Midori Fujii: Yeah, and she was like, " ; Oh, those rules." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Yeah." ; She goes, " ; Well, you didn' ; t punish us. We just would never not do that." ; And that' ; s pretty much how I think we grew up. It was like, I think that' ; s in the, I don' ; t know. I mean, I don' ; t remember really being told that. Other than, I think the other thing was like, I think through stories and understanding other people' ; s sacrifice and knowing the family history, there, you know it was kind of a little bit more like, don' ; t put your needs first. Like, think about other people. Think about somebody else' ; s perspective. Don' ; t, and it was never said, don' ; t be selfish. It was, don' ; t ask for something that' ; s going to make somebody else feel bad because they can' ; t give it to you. You know that' ; s certainly a, for me, like a very big thing. Like if you, if we asked our parents for something and they couldn' ; t give it. Like, it only takes once or twice as a kid for you to look at that and say, " ; Not going to do that." ; Because they weren' ; t mean about it. They were hurt by it and you just don' ; t go there anymore. And we knew that things were not easy. Sono Fujii: But I don' ; t think we, I don' ; t think we understood how financially challenged or strapped they were. Midori Fujii: No. Sono Fujii: Because we didn' ; t, because that' ; s just what you know. I mean so, I mean I didn' ; t realize until we had, my mother would make a stir fry of hot dogs and cabbage and rice and she made another dish with kidney beans and bacon and celery and-- Midori Fujii: I think that must be camp food or something. But it was like- Sono Fujii: And she would serve it over rice. I mean, I hate kidney beans to this day. Midori Fujii: Yeah, but it was like-- Sono Fujii: But it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t until I grew up and realized that, yeah, this is, this is low income food. This is, you know we did not have, I mean, roast beef was rare. We never had roast beef. We had chicken. And of course you couldn' ; t get fish those days. I mean, you could get the blocks of frozen perch filets, but I mean we-- Midori Fujii: Right, I mean, those were the days when stores were only open until 6:00 and not on the weekends right? So that' ; s the other issue. Sono Fujii: Right, I mean the butcher shop, the butcher closed at 6:00 or 5:00, you know. So we-- Midori Fujii: No but I' ; m, it didn' ; t feel like a, a tortured, difficult childhood in that-- Sono Fujii: Yeah, I didn' ; t feel poor. Midori Fujii: Right. Sono Fujii: We had clothes. We shopped at the budget floor at Field' ; s, but I didn' ; t know what budget floor meant. I mean we just, that' ; s where we bought our clothes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you, do you think people realize, people in the Japanese community, Japanese American community today, who think about the Chicago Shimpo and, and know of your father' ; s role at the newspaper, do you think they realize that all those years that he was doing this incredibly important work that it wasn' ; t financially lucrative? Sono Fujii: I don' ; t think anybody thought of it that way? And I don' ; t think that the Japanese American community was a, was a wealthy community. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t... Sono Fujii: I mean I don' ; t know what the parents did. You know, like I mean I go, one of the, the, so there were a number of families in our neighborhood where the kids were like our age, and there was one family that lived in our building, and I know he was an auto mechanic. But I don' ; t know what the other families, you know like what Fred' ; s or Iris' ; s or David' ; s families or Fred, I don' ; t know what their parents did. I mean, they' ; re, they' ; re parents. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t, I think that, as Sono said, I don' ; t think the Japanese community was an affluent community. There were a lot of you know people that were owning a store. It seemed like a very hard working community, in general, right? If you think about Toguri' ; s or any of the ministers that were there. These were not... Sono Fujii: Franklins. Midori Fujii: There were a lot of people that were just serving the community. There was a lot of, sort of that was my sense is a community of mutual support and service and not a lot of affluence. And also I think a lot of the nisei returned to the West Coast as they hit retirement age. I mean the Japanese community in Chicago is like, it' ; s a shrinking community. You know, the issei died and the nisei left. Sono Fujii: Or they, you know they went to the suburbs. Midori Fujii: Yeah, but a lot of them returned to the West Coast. I think that' ; s right, isn' ; t it? Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were young and your father was working for the paper, did you tag along? Midori Fujii: Some. Sono Fujii: I don' ; t remember going to the paper a lot. I mean, I remember working there a couple of summers. I can' ; t, was I in like high school? Midori Fujii: So part of the thing was, the paper moved from the, near our house to the north side, so our dad commuted from Hyde Park to where it was like right by Wrigley Field. Sono Fujii: 3744 North Clark. Midori Fujii: North Clark. Right? And so that' ; s a pretty big hike just to like, if you' ; re just going for a field trip, you just don' ; t do that with your kids if you don' ; t have to. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: So, I think you did that in high school for work. Sono Fujii: Right, we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have a car, so my dad would have to take the, the Garfield bus to the, to Garfield Train Station and then catch the B train to Addison and then walk from Addison to the, I mean that' ; s why he was a Cubs fan. Midori Fujii: So it was like a, it' ; s a long commute. Right? So, and he just did that and it was like, mmm, nobody thought anything of it. It' ; s just, go to work, come home. It was like that was it. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you worked there in the summers, what kind of work did you do? Sono Fujii: Basically, I addressed the papers. So I would go, the paper came out what, every two weeks? Midori Fujii: Mmm not originally it was... Sono Fujii: Well, by that time. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t know. Sono Fujii: Anyway, I would to have put the, they had these, it was a address, it was a labeling address machine and you would just put the papers through it and the address would come out. But it wasn' ; t you know... Midori Fujii: I think the thing that I remember the most about it is our dad looking for a typesetter. And had like, and he would talk about this one guy that was just so fast and what it was like to be able to find somebody. ' ; Cause if you look at what it, it' ; s like, like it' ; s, I mean you ca-- unimaginable to think about setting individual characters and type, like just mind numbing, but that' ; s what they did! And um, Sono Fujii: They had um... Midori Fujii: We didn' ; t have Xerox machines, so if my dad wanted to copy something, he typed it or transcribed it by hand. And it' ; s like, Sono Fujii: And it was all in Japanese. Midori Fujii: Well no. And, but some, like some of the books I, I' ; ve went, I' ; ve gone through some of his stuff and a chapter from a book that he thought was worth keeping, he had typed it out and I' ; m like, God. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: But he wanted to keep it so he did. Sono Fujii: Right, and he had special printed paper. So the, the newspaper, I mean you know Japanese is written from right to left, and the columns were horizontal columns, and there was a pre-printed like grid kind of paper where he would write his articles. And each little square, he would put a, a character like a kanji or a hiragana, or katakana in there. And, then he would hand that to the typesetter, and the typesetter, had a, he would just pull the different size and put it all by hand. I mean it' ; s just amazing. So, I mean, I don' ; t know if you want, we' ; ve got photos of it. Emma Saito Lincoln: Yes. I think now would be a great time to share those photos. Sono Fujii: So this is a picture of the, of our dad at the... Midori Fujii: So these, this is all type here. These like different individual pieces of type. Sono Fujii: There were different, and there are different size fonts and, for the same character. Here' ; s another picture of him. That' ; s-- Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember him ever talking about purchasing the type? Sono Fujii: There' ; s actually something about that in one of his letters because he had to... Midori Fujii: He had to rent the type or something. Right? Sono Fujii: There was some controversy as to where he was going to get it from. I don' ; t know. I' ; ll look for that, and if you want I' ; ll send it to you. Emma Saito Lincoln: I' ; m just curious if had to, if that was something they had to order all the way from Japan? Midori Fujii: Curate it was like the short answer is like it wasn' ; t easy, and, and, and purchasing the actual printing machine and moving that was like, a big deal. Sono Fujii: There was, I mean I remember that, when growing up, every now and then some guy would drop off these small but really heavy packages. I mean he was a Caucasian guy and this thing would like weigh a ton. I' ; d say, " ; What is in that?" ; you know, " ; Oh, it' ; s type." ; I mean, how do you get, in the United States, kanji? I have no idea. Emma Saito Lincoln: And how do you find a person with the skill to set that type? Midori Fujii: That is the question. Yeah. I think that these people were from Japan. Sono Fujii: I mean there was this b- and I sho- and I don' ; t have it, but I, I can send you it again. I' ; ve got a picture of this big, huge printing press that was in the back, and it was very noisy. Midori Fujii: Yeah, it looks like something you' ; d see at the Museum of Science and Industry. I mean it' ; s like this giant black machine, like industrial strength. I' ; m like, whoa. Emma Saito Lincoln: What did you think of your father' ; s work when you were young? Sono Fujii: It was what he did. Midori Fujii: Well, I think I would say a couple of things. It' ; s what he did but it was really what he did. Meaning, he' ; d go to work, but then he' ; d come home and he' ; d write and he' ; d read. So he didn' ; t, it wasn' ; t just like he came home and then that was it. I mean he played with us, he was around. I mean it wasn' ; t like he was like an absent dad. And he was like very different from a lot of, well it wasn' ; t issei either, right? But he really did like do the dishes, and he helped, he was, he didn' ; t help around the house, he was like part of taking care of us and taking care of laundry and doing a lot of different things. So, very un-, very sort of non-traditional in terms of Japanese of his generation. Right? Sono Fujii: I mean he didn' ; t, he didn' ; t drive a car. He had no interest in driving a car. He was deaf in one ear, so that would' ; ve been an issue. Midori Fujii: But he, but he would-- Sono Fujii: He was somewhat handy around the house. Midori Fujii: I mean, he would repair things and he could cook, and yeah. But, I think he was really working a lot of the time on the weekends. He was reading, he was writing. I mean really, I think of my dad as a scholar. Don' ; t you? Like as an ac- Like if he were like in another time, he' ; d be an academic. I think that, that he was really always studying and reading and trying to stay up to date. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: Enough so that, as Sono said, he did hand write his articles. There were times when he had to wrap his wrist because I think he was getting tendonitis and that kind of thing when he was writing a lot. Sono Fujii: And he also, he also, I remember him going out at night. I remember him going out tonight-- at night and doing what, I mean, I didn' ; t know at the time. He would say, " ; I have to go talk to a family." ; And, and I' ; m thinking that it was like family counseling, that there were people who were having problems in their family, and they turned to my dad, and he would go and talk to them. And like, he was doing this even when like I was in college. I mean it wasn' ; t an every day thing, but I just remember him having to go out. And I, I remember when my parents separated that that was kept, I mean he originally was going to, wanted to be very open about it, but he told me that someone said to him, " ; If your marriage can' ; t succeed, what hope is there for the rest of us?" ; And it was just like, (sigh) so I mean, we never publicized it, but I always had the sense that it was something that we didn' ; t talk openly about. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I di-, I was not aware of it in that way because I think that, the thing that was notable for me is that our parents got along much better once they weren' ; t trying to, sort of, I mean, by then we' ; re, they' ; re... We' ; re also grown, but they were very supportive of each other. I think certainly early in terms of the Resettlers and that kind of thing. And, our mom was ready, if our dad had been deported to go to Japan with him to get settled and then to send for us. It didn' ; t, I think we only learned that indirectly, I think I learned that from my aunt. And then as, when they were both older, they were very supportive of each other, and so I think that always had a sense that family is family. And that was, I think that' ; s a really pretty strong value. Regardless of like their, whatever individual differences they had. So, we had family Christmases, Thanksgivings, that kind of thing after our parents separated. Um... Sono Fujii: There was a, there was a Midori Fujii: It was I think-- Sono Fujii: There was like maybe two years when it was... But I think our mother had a fairly catastrophic... Midori Fujii: She had a car accident and broke her neck actually. Sono Fujii: Car accident, and she broke her neck. I mean this was in 1971 and they' ; d been separated for two years. And my dad and Dori were there like within hours after they found out. My dad was just... devastated by it. I think that really brought them back, brought them together in a way that you know they realized how much they cared for each other in spite of their differences. But, you know, after that we were you know, doing things together and having Christmases together and that kind of stuff again. Emma Saito Lincoln: You mentioned earlier that, that your mother worked? Partly to help ease the financial strain. What kind of work did she do? Midori Fujii: She was a social worker and then she was a therapist. Sono Fujii: She worked at the University of Chicago Libraries for a while too. Midori Fujii: Mhmm. She worked for Public Aid for a while. I think that system just enraged her though, sort of the bias and the ' ; no man in the house rule' ; back then. She was disgusted by it, but... And then, and then she went back to school to get a master' ; s degree. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then, and I, I know we, we touched a little bit on redress earlier, but when your mother testified at the CWRIC hearing in Chicago, did you attend? Were you there? Sono Fujii: Mm-mm. Midori Fujii: Mm-mm. I don' ; t even, I just vaguely remember her saying, I' ; m going to go do this. It was like, I' ; m going out to lunch. You know, it was... She' ; d been working on it so hard and, and after a while you just kind of lost track of it. I mean there were... Once in a while she would say, " ; Would you read this? or do that, or..." ; I think I was a little bit, probably more aware of it than you were at that time. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know how she felt about the five minute time limit? Sono Fujii: No. Midori Fujii: No. Sono Fujii: I didn' ; t know there was such a thing. Midori Fujii: Oh yeah, that. Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you watched the recording? Midori Fujii: Mm yeah, Catherine got it for us. I had read her testimony, but it' ; s different to see it. Sono Fujii: Yeah. I know, I know my husband has shared it with some of his colleagues and they use it in their classes. At, you know, someone used it when he was teaching up at Lake Forest College. I don' ; t know anymore, but it' ; s out there. Emma Saito Lincoln: How did it feel for you watching? Midori Fujii: To watch it? Oh, that' ; s an interesting, well my, she was much more soft spoken than I remember. I would' ; ve thought, she came after, I forget who it was first, she was ver- a very fiery speaker. But my mom, that was like, it didn' ; t seem not like her, but was much more measured. But she seemed so, relatively in my memory when talking about that, sort of silent but deadly, let' ; s put it that way. Quiet but deadly. My mom could have that ability to do that, so. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember how she felt eventually when the checks were issued and the apology letters were sent out? Or your grandmother, how she felt? Sono Fujii: More about my grandmother. So, my grandmother was one of the named plaintiffs, and there actually was a ceremony in San Jose where the checks were given to some of the older, to the Issei, and my grandmother gave a speech. And the only reason we know so much about it is the assistant attorney general for the Civil Rights Division was John Dunne at the time. And Mr. Dunne had been a partner at the law firm where I worked. And he was in the New York office and I was in the Chicago office. And one of the partners in Chicago knew that he was going to be doing this. And he reached out to Mr. Dunne and told him that my grandmother was going to be there and that you know, I' ; d been working for the law firm for like 20 years. So they had a correspondence and they had an exchange at the, at the ceremony, and that, it was covered in the papers as well. And my grandmother said that the apology was what meant more. She said if they hadn' ; t, if there hadn' ; t been the apology, accepting the money only would' ; ve left her with a funny feeling. She wouldn' ; t have felt right. And I think that' ; s true. I think that the, the apology was what was the most important to them, to the Issei, and to the Japanese community. Because I mean, $20,000 wasn' ; t going to compensate for what happened. Midori Fujii: Yeah, I don' ; t know. I mean, that' ; s a good question. I don' ; t know that my mom felt, our mom felt that much satisfaction. I think she was like, yeah, that' ; s the least that should have been done. Sono Fujii: Right. Midori Fujii: It was the, the bare minimum I don' ; t think she thought... You know ' ; cause she was, she really believed in reparations and it, you know it' ; s kind of a negligible amount, and she' ; s pretty clear about that in her testimony so... Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we need to start wrapping up unfortunately, ' ; cause I think we could keep talking for quite some time. I think in closing, I' ; d love to know what each of you would like future generations to know about your family' ; s experiences. What would you like them to take away from all of this? Midori Fujii: Well, it' ; s not over. You look at what we' ; re dealing with in this country. It' ; s like you know, all we need to do is look at immigration history. And it' ; s a history of racism and privilege and people being unsure about, clear eyed about what values really matter. So yeah, I mean, the, our current moment couldn' ; t be more clear. I think there' ; s no, there' ; s, it' ; s not a, hopefully not a surprise that the Japanese and the Asi-, the AAIP community and Black Lives Matter, and there' ; s some allyship finally in those communities that I don' ; t think was there previously. So, I guess that' ; s what I have to say. It' ; s like don' ; t get me started. (laughs) Sono Fujii: Yeah, I mean, I think I want our children to know about it and I want our children to understand its importance. We have been to Heart Mountain twice. All of our child- all of my children have been there. Your-- Midori Fujii: One of my two children has been there. Sono Fujii: I want them, I think they understand the importance of it. I think our s- my son moreso. I don' ; t want it to be forgotten. I don' ; t want it to be considered irrelevant. I don' ; t want... To, to move on. Midori Fujii: You know it' ; s understanding origin, or it' ; s like understanding your history, whether it' ; s how this country was founded and, and who was disenfranchised along the way and how communities form and sustain themselves. I mean the J-, you know the Japanese commu- and some of the model minority issues that have sort of divided communities, that' ; s all part of this, I think in terms of... and I think understanding all of that and understanding the pieces of a story, whether it' ; s your own family history, whether it' ; s the nation' ; s history or community' ; s history, like, it you-- in terms of understanding the context of the decisions that we' ; re making today. It isn' ; t just a flash on the news. Right? It' ; s not like this moment in time. There' ; s a whole underpinning to that, and we just need to have a better informed you know voter, I don' ; t know, populace, whatever, I don' ; t know you know, in terms of just understanding. Democracy, is not... You have to work at it. It is not just something that happens at war. People knew what was happening on the West Coast and there were some people that were opposed, but it just went along. Right? And that' ; s, you know, we take so many things for granted that aren' ; t automatic. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we' ; ll end on that note, what, what democracy takes. Thank you both so much for participating. Sono Fujii: Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujiiSono_FujiiMidori20210609.xml FujiiSono_FujiiMidori20210609.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
Alternate Form of Name
Fujii, Dori
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0900
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujiiSono_FujiiMidori20210609.xml
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Fujii, Sono and Midori (6/9/2021)
Description
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Sisters Sono and Midori "Dori" Fujii were born and raised in Chicago in the 1950s and 60s. Their father was born in Gifu, Japan and their mother, a nisei, was born in San Jose, California. In this interview, they discuss their mother's experiences growing up in the Japanese American community in San Jose, their father's early life in Japan, and their family members' experiences of incarceration and resettlement in Chicago. Their mother was in college at San Jose State University prior to her incarceration at Santa Anita and then Heart Mountain, where she met Sono and Midori’s father, Ryoichi Fujii. The youngest of five children in a family that suffered financially after the death of his father, Ryoichi Fujii had a difficult childhood, taught himself English while apprenticing in a textile business, was accepted to Doshisha University, and eventually moved to the United States to study theology at Oberlin College. At Heart Mountain, he taught American history and government classes to other incarcerees. Following the war, he founded the Chicago Shimpo newspaper while Sono and Dori's mother worked in a number of roles, including as a social worker and a therapist. In sharing the experiences of their family, Sono and Midori want to ensure that younger generations understand the importance of this history and not let it be forgotten. They express that understanding this history is crucial as context for present-day social and political issues.
Date
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2021-06-09
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Oral History Project
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9504be95046249115bdb1a02943c87bb
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Fujishima, Kazuko May
Interview Keyword
Midwest Buddhist Temple
Jerome
Fresno
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/10/2017 Fujishima, Kazuko May (8/10/2017) 0:31:34 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Midwest Buddhist Temple Jerome Fresno Fujishima, Kazuko May Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299704012 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299704012?h=c1f3437243" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kazuko May Fujishima recounts her early life in rural central California, incarceration experiences during World War II, and postwar resettlement in Chicago. A founding member and the first female president of the Midwest Buddhist Temple, she reflects on the early years of the temple and the key individuals who were involved with its establishment. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] KazukoFujishima: 00:00 My name is Kazuko May Fujishima. Anna Takada: 00:04 And can you tell me a little bit about, uh, where you were born and your hometown? KF: 00:11 Well, when I was born I was actually born in Armona, California. And, um, I' ; m one of four girls and my mother and father, they worked wherever they could find a job that was back in 1920s. AT: 00:35 And, and what was the, the town you grew up in and what was that like? KF: 00:41 No, it was a rural area in central California. And, uh, my father managed a 40 acre orchard, growing peaches, apricots and plums. And, uh, of course, hay, for the courses that have plowed the field because they didn' ; t have tractors at that time, I guess, or it was too expensive. But, uh, he managed that for a woman who lived in near Los Angeles. AT: 01:19 And where, where were you in the birth order of your family with your siblings? KF: 01:27 What do you mean? AT: 01:27 Were you the youngest or the oldest? KF: 01:28 No, I' ; m the, uh, third, third child. I have an older sister who is her mother, Maxine' ; s mother. And um, I had another sister that lived in Seattle and she was a nurse. She went to nurses training school, the government sponsored and uh, then came me. And then I have my sister Takaio. Now she is an actress. She lives in Hollywood. AT: 02:08 Like, like before the war. Um, did you KF: 02:15 What was life like, before the war? AT: 02:18 You went to school? KF: 02:18 Well, it was normal, you know, we had ah Caucasian friends and we also had Japanese friends. There were a lot of the Japanese. So, uh, we went to Japanese school too because I have parents wanted us to be able to converse with them. And uh, so we went to Japanese school. AT: 02:45 And uh, do you remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked? KF: 02:51 Yes, I do. AT: 02:56 Or how old were you? KF: 02:56 I mean, they made it, uh, very, I don' ; t know what to say, but, uh, they wanted us to know that we were not the enemy. It was the people in Japan, not the Japanese in the United States. So they wanted to make sure that we were more American. Although ah, we did Japanese things like eating Japanese food, growing our own vegetables, which were, you know, the things that Japanese eat, but uh. AT: 03:53 When you, when you say they, who are you referring to? You said they wanted you to know that you' ; re more American than Japanese. KF: 04:05 Yes, right. AT: 04:05 Who, who is they or who is that? KF: 04:08 My parents. AT: 04:10 Your parents. Okay. And uh, how, how old were you at the time? KF: 04:17 I was 14, so I was at that age where, you know, you do know that you' ; re American and that you want to be American, although we look different. AT: 04:42 And, and do you remember when the Evacuation Orders went out? KF: 04:49 Yes. Yes. Um, my father bought ah three trunks to store his, uh, the valuables that he thought like, uh, the Japanese clothing and the good dishes and the blankets. You know, whatever he thought was, was important for him to keep. And he left it with a trusted friend and many of the so called trusted friends ended up not being trusted, but ours was a very trusted friend. And we did get our trunks back intact because we heard of people who didn' ; t get their valuables back. They were taken from them, just lost. So we were lucky. AT: 06:08 Do you remember how you felt about the situation at the time at age 14? KF: 06:19 Kind of. And I have my, uh, I was a sophomore in high school and I had my annual, my high school annual and uh, people had written things and know my friends and one was uh my uh, my shorthand teacher. And he said, keep your chin up, things will get better. And I keep reading things that, you know, my so called friends wrote and uh, it' ; s amazing, you know, some were real friends and some were not. So in a way I guess, you know, that' ; s why we didn' ; t go back to California. We stayed in Chicago and, uh, that jobs were plentiful for the Japanese Americans and even my father. So, you know, it was a good thing that we were in Chicago. AT: 07:50 And where, where was the first place that you were relocated to? KF: 07:58 Where? AT: 07:58 Did you go to an Assembly Center? KF: 08:02 We, we lived on the South Side. AT: 08:07 Oh, I mean from your hometown and going to camp? KF: 08:10 Oh from my hometown to camp? AT: 08:14 Mhm KF: 08:14 Okay. From my home time we went to Fresno Assembly Center and then from Fresno it was a five day train trip to Arkansas. It was, uh, an older train and sometimes, you know, they had to get a special, I don' ; t know, it would stop and not not go, you know. So it was an old train that, uh, I was prone to motion sickness, so I was sick most of the way. AT: 09:06 How long were you in Fresno? KF: 09:08 In Fresno? I think it was a matter of months because we didn' ; t go to school when we were in Fresno. AT: 09:24 Do you remember what you would do then? KF: 09:27 What? New Speaker: 09:27 Do you remember what you would do to pass the time or? KF: 09:31 Well, we would only play with each other and, um, I love sports. So we played basketball, baseball, and uh, we' ; d make up different teams and we' ; d play against each other. AT: 09:52 Do you remember your first impressions of, uh, when you went to Fresno? KF: 09:58 Fresno, yes. Well, they were mostly of people we knew. So, uh, it was, uh, not too bad, but the thing is it was hard for our parents. And, uh, let' ; s see, my father and he was in Fresno. He had to have some kind of job and so he worked as a policeman and your mother worked in the mess hall. So that' ; s about the only kind of jobs, you know, women can have working in the mess hall either as a cook or serving the food. So we were at my age, it was all fun. AT: 11:09 And then, where did you go from Fresno and that it was a five day trip KF: 11:22 To Arkansas. It was to Jerome. AT: 11:27 And, and what was, what was Jerome like KF: 11:30 What? AT: 11:30 What was Jerome like? Did you go to school there? KF: 11:34 Yes, yes. All the land to go to school and take a, I was in high school and I was pushing in a business course. So I took my, uh, regular and like history and science and English and, uh, for my, uh, alternative classes, I took shorthand and, uh, are there around business course. So at least, you know, we were able to, uh, get our education. It wasn' ; t the best because the teachers were, were not the best, but at least we got through high school. AT: 12:29 And there you lived with your family? KF: 12:32 Yes. And then we went to Jerome, I graduated high school and so then they wanted us, you know, us to leave camp. So my father and went to a sod farm. I went out as a housekeeper, domestic work. I was a babysitter for ah young boys. And I only lasted six months I think. And then I decided to, uh, take an office job and I started working for the [H?] Old Store Company. The office manager was a Jewish woman and so she, uh, took us under her wings and treated us real good. I think because of they, the Jewish people were discriminated against. And then AT: 13:52 Sorry, this was in Chicago? KF: 13:55 Yes. AT: 14:00 And so how did that work? Did your dad get a job first and then you joined him? KF: 14:07 What? AT: 14:07 Do you remember how that process works? Did your dad find a job in Chicago? First and then you joined him. KF: 14:17 Yes, yes. Right. AT: 14:18 And what about the rest of your family? KF: 14:21 Okay. My father went to a sod farm, you know, they grow grass or lawn. And then, uh, he worked there until he was quite old. And my mother of course, didn' ; t have any, didn' ; t have any, you know, work related things. So she, uh, my father decided to buy a house and it had, uh, lots of bedrooms. So he rented it out to ah two, two fellas who were going to college and he rented it out and my mother made meals for them and made their lunch for them. So that helped pay for the house. AT: 15:25 And where was the house located? KF: 15:28 4453 South Ellis Avenue. Yeah. And um, I think it' ; s still a pretty nice neighborhood, but that' ; s why we' ; re, many of the Japanese congregated bought homes or rented. AT: 15:54 Did you know anyone that also moved to Chicago? KF: 15:58 What? AT: 15:58 Did you know anyone else who also moved to Chicago from camp? KF: 16:03 No, except that, uh, the first job I had was in Evanston, at hous, the housekeeping. And then, uh, I had a relative who lived on Fullerton and, uh, she said, if you' ; re tired of the, you know, housekeeping job, you can stay here and look for a office job. And so that' ; s what I did after six months or so. And then I worked for this [Mal?] Richard, like I said, and she' ; s Jewish. And so they were discriminated against so she was good to the Japanese and I worked for that company until I was 72 years. Another Speaker: 17:09 You knew a lot of people from camp who came here and they were part of the Midwest Buddhist Temple. Another Speak 2: 17:23 Right. I mean they had Reverend Kono was here. KF: 17:25 Right. Another Speaker: 17:26 So that' ; s what she' ; s asking. KF: 17:28 Oh Another Speaker: 17:29 Did you know other people from camp, you knew a lot of people who moved here. KF: 17:37 As a matter of fact, Ben and Tosh, were the ones that bought the land, that was, um, a special deal, wasn' ; t it? Yeah. Uh, oh, I think they found out that it wasn' ; t a tax free area. And because um, the temple is tax free. I went to city hall and got the, uh, tax, free papers. And so that' ; s how we were able to buy, buy the land. AT: 18:24 And I' ; m sorry, that was the land for Midwest Buddhist Temple? So, um, and that, that property was purchased for the, for the temple to create the temple? KF: 18:43 Yes. So every so many years we go to city hall and renew that, that we are still tax free. AT: 18:58 So can you tell me more about, um, the, the folks who are involved in and founding the temple? KF: 19:07 The what? AT: 19:07 Who were involved in founding MBT? KF: 19:13 Yes. Our minister and the two fellows, Ben and Tosh. Okay. They were ah, Tosh worked for an engineering firm and, um, Ben was, uh, optometrist and so they were able to delve into things and, uh, got more information about the tax free information and so did I. So I went to city hall. AT: 19:59 And so was that just, um, that was like a, uh, volunteered effort? KF: 20:09 Yes, right. AT: 20:09 So can you, can you tell me about some of the early days of MBT? KF: 20:15 About what? AT: 20:15 The early days of MBT and getting that started? KF: 20:20 Oh, yes. Uh, it happened that there were many Buddhists, uh, that we' ; re, we' ; re from California and elsewhere, like Tosh was from ah Seattle area, I think. Ben was from LA area and you know, we were all from different parts of California, but, uh, there were many Buddhists, so, uh, and they congregated from, uh, from the temple and uh, you know, we just gave voluntarily, what ever we could. AT: 21:17 Uh, where, where did you congregate before, um, MBT? Was there a certain location? KF: 21:25 No. Um, I think Moody Bible used to allow us to use the room because they are nonsectarian. Right? And uh, I think that' ; s how we started. And I think ah, Mich Ichikawa had something to do with that. Another Speaker: 22:04 I know there were some temporary places but I don' ; t know any names Another Speak 2: 22:08 How did you know Reverend Kono? KF: 22:11 What? Another Speak 2: 22:11 How did you know Reverend Kono? KF: 22:13 Where? Another Speak 2: 22:17 Did you, did you meet him in camp or was he in California? KF: 22:23 Who? Another Speak 2: 22:23 Reverend Kono. KF: 22:24 Reverend Kono, he was in California at the Hanford Buddhist Church. Another Speaker: 22:32 Wasn' ; t he in camp? KF: 22:34 Yes. But he was well known in California. He would go speak and at all the different Buddhist churches, he was a good speaker. Another Speaker: 22:47 Was he in your camp too? KF: 22:49 Yes, yes. Another Speaker: 22:54 Did he have Buddhist services there too? KF: 22:54 Yes, yes. But they tried, you know, they didn' ; t want too many people at one time so they would, you know, congregate. And then later on they accepted. So we were able to use their home for services. But when we came to Chicago then that was another story again. He had a service on the South Side and had a service on the North Side before we built the temple. And Reverend Kubose was a popular speaker too. So he was mostly on the South Side. AT: 24:03 How many people would you say were, were involved like in those early days of the temple, how many members or, or people would come? KF: 24:19 It started out with maybe 25. They didn' ; t want too many people at one time. So 25 to 50. And then it got, larger as it got well known. AT: 24:43 And um, were there any other activities that you were involved with? Um, besides those uh, at the temple, in Chicago? KF: 24:56 In Chicago, no, I guess I was so involved with the temple that I didn' ; t have the time for the things. But, uh, when we were getting the, oh, what' ; s the artifacts for the altar? I was in charge of that because, uh, I was an exporter. And, uh, so we were able to get him the altar pieces from Japan. And because I was in export, I was able to, uh, get special deals. Another Speaker: 25:54 She was also the first female president, of the Buddhist temple as part of the Buddhist churches in America. AT: 26:03 This is why I' ; m glad you' ; re here. Wow. And so, um, so have you been involved in the temple since? KF: 26:21 Yes, but I' ; m more or less retired, but I still help out wherever I can. AT: 26:33 And, uh, so you, you had a family here in Chicago. Um, did you all, you raised your kids Buddhist and was that, that was the temple? KF: 26:47 Yeah, because, uh, we had our scouting program at our temple, which kept our son involved at our temple. But he' ; s, uh, he married a Caucasian girl, so, and has two children, so he' ; s not quite as involved anymore, but we still keep in touch. He has twin girls. AT: 27:32 And how, how would you say that, um, how has the, the Japanese American community of Chicago, um, changed from the time that you first came here after the war? KF: 27:53 I think we may managed to coexist, you know, mingled with more Caucasians. As a matter of fact, uh, there' ; s quite a few Caucasians that come to our temple and we try, try to be more a, you know, nonexclusive. AT: 28:38 Well, as we wrap up here, um, just a few more questions and please jump in if you have anything else. Um, if, uh, if you could leave your, your children and grandchildren, um, with any kind of legacy or message, what, what might that be? KF: 29:13 What would you say Joy? Another Speak 2: 29:28 I would say do the best you can at everything. And always be mindful. KF: 29:41 Yeah. And I always said when we had our building on the South Side, you know, don' ; t, don' ; t try to, to do things to, uh, make things shameful for the Japanese. We should uh, we should coexist. That' ; s, that' ; s my main, main thing. And you know, don' ; t be too Japanese, but be polite. And I think that' ; s what I learned from this Jewish friend. You know, my, uh, my boss and I, I' ; m still friends with the owner or the company Mrs. Elsdorf. Yeah, she came to my 90th birthday party. You don' ; t remember? Another Speaker: 31:02 No, she wasn' ; t there. KF: 31:02 She was there. AT: 31:12 Well, thank you so much for recording with us. Is there anything that you might want to add or that I might' ; ve missed in this conversation? KF: 31:27 No. AT: 31:27 Well, thank you again. KF: 31:31 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujishimaKazuko20170810.xml FujishimaKazuko20170810.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Fujishima, Kazuko May (8/10/2017)
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Kazuko May Fujishima recounts her early life in rural central California, incarceration experiences during World War II, and postwar resettlement in Chicago. A founding member and the first female president of the Midwest Buddhist Temple, she reflects on the early years of the temple and the key individuals who were involved with its establishment.
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2017-08-10
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
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The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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Takada, Anna
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Fujiyoshi, Jane
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Rohwer
Texas
Farmer
Christian
Lakeside Church
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
Society of Friends
Quaker
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/12/2017 Fujiyoshi, Jane (11/12/2017) 0:47:39 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Rohwer Texas Farmer Christian Lakeside Church Chicago Nisei Athletic Association Society of Friends Quaker Fujiyoshi, Jane Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299381243/ac1a48cab4 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299381243?h=ac1a48cab4" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Jane Fujiyoshi is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American who was born in California and incarcerated at Rohwer as an infant. She discusses her family's experiences leaving Rohwer to farm in Texas, where they lived for 19 years before eventually moving to Chicago. She recalls sharecropper life, the kindness of her Mexican American neighbors, and Japanese American community life in Texas. The Fujiyoshi family relocated to Chicago in the early 1960s, and Jane describes the challenges and excitement of establishing new lives in a major city. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 To start, can you just state your full name please? Jane Fujiyoshi: 00:01 It' ; s Jane. My maiden name was, uh, Sakoda and it' ; s, um, I' ; m married now, it' ; s uh Fujiyoshi AT: 00:10 And where and when were you born? JF: 00:13 Um, I was born in 1941, um, April, April, 1941 in Montebello, California. AT: 00:24 And uh, what kind of town or area is that? JF: 00:27 It' ; s a farm, rural. My Dad was a farmer and um, now, that' ; s all part of East Los Angeles. I mean it' ; s all city now, but it was rural, I think at that time. And um, I can' ; t tell you too much about it cause we left there in 1942 when I was about just turning one. So, um, I, I don' ; t really know the area myself, but I' ; ve seen it afterwards. AT: 00:53 Do you know what kind of property that or? JF: 00:55 I know that we were, my mom said she had, she was a city girl from Hollywood and she married my dad who was a farmer, farm boy. And they were, I know she had to help put crates of lettuce on her shoulder and walk it out, you know. And, and this is, you know, her introduction, an introduction to a farm life. Yeah. AT: 01:16 And do you have any siblings? JF: 01:18 Yes. There, there are eight, eight of us. Yeah. AT: 01:22 Where are you in the birth order? JF: 01:24 Third, third of eight, and there' ; s six girls and two boys. So I have an older sister Janice, who' ; s, you want to know who they are? AT: 01:31 Yeah. JF: 01:32 Okay. She' ; s a teacher and taught many years and she actually went back to California when she was, because we moved to Texas. Maybe I' ; d better start at the beginning. AT: 01:44 Sure. JF: 01:44 Okay. Like my dad was born in 1912 and he' ; s the oldest of seven children. And my grandfather came by way of Hawaii. And, um, uh, I think he helped build some of the water, water lines or over someplace. And, um, and then came, then he settled in California and was farming there. And He, all, all of the children, all of my father' ; s, he and he, he' ; s the oldest of seven and, and they were all born in California. AT: 02:19 Okay. And how about your mom? Do you know where she ended up in America? JF: 02:24 Yeah. She, um, she' ; s also a Nisei. Her, her mom and dad were both here. My, my grandmother was a picture. Right. And I think on both sides they were both picture brides. And, um, um, my grandfather had come when he was about 15 years old and he' ; d lived in, uh, with a, with an American family and he became a gardener. That' ; s on my mother' ; s side. My father said there were always farmers, but my, and my grandmother on my mother' ; s side was, uh, she did, um, I think, uh, after the war, you know, when it was hard to get jobs in. But when they went, for the people who went back to Cali, California, she' ; s the one who, um, umm, like took an ironing she, you know, she took an ironing and she, um, had had a very interesting way that she' ; s made a living to. But they, they became pretty prosperous than that. That because she was able to buy property in, you know, like four, four lots, four for the four children they had, yeah. AT: 03:28 Um, so when the, when the war broke out, um, do you know a little bit about what happened with your family and your parents. They had three small children at that time, would that be right? JF: 03:42 Yeah, I was a third third of the children, um, at that time. And, um, we were, we didn' ; t own the land, so, and my, my grandparents had left in 1938. Um, my father' ; s parents, they, they, they, they, they, um, returned to Japan with all the money that they had earned because he was not one the eldest son, he was one of the younger sons. And the dream for the, for a lot of the people who came here was to work, make money so they could buy property in Japan. And so that' ; s what he did, that he, he worked here. He had, you know, he, he was fortunate that he was able to have a family here. And then when he thought he had enough money, he took all the money they had. And, uh, my, my dad being the oldest, oldest stayed back. And then of course he had already married and had three children. So he wasn' ; t interested in going back to Japan and he was, and they were doing very, very well. There were, you know, they' ; d had some good years and they' ; ve had, in 1941, they bought a brand new 1941 Buick. Um, and I guess they paid cash in those days, you know, they didn' ; t have such things as loans. And he bought, he bought a farm equipment and he bought my mom a washer and dryer and things like this, things that you couldn' ; t pack in just two suitcases and you' ; d have to get rid of them are, you know, and we didn' ; t own the property, so, and we had, uh, we had a seed and we planted it I think. And, and, uh, so all that was, you know, the new crop was going to come through and we had, he had done very well, but, um, but he had invested in all into equipment and things that we had to leave behind. So they, they lost quite a bit and when they had to leave. AT: 05:32 And, um, so can you explain the, the trajectory of your family after the Evacuation orders went out? JF: 05:40 Okay. Well, um, I understand that we had to go into the Santa Anita Racetrack and we were there for awhile and then from there we were sent to rural Arkansas and then at and now, and my father was a farmer. He was very, you know like uneasy being in camp. And he here, he knew that there was a need for farmers. And so he, he had heard of, um, he, uh, he had a friend who was farming in Texas. And so, um, then we were told that the, uh, that we were in the area was open and we could come in, go to Texas and farm. So we, uh, in 1942, October of 1942 after my baby sister was born in camp, she, um, there were four of us now, four children, and she was newborn. And I understand we wrote on them on a railroad car. I' ; m not in the car, but between the rail cars, my mom and four children, newborn baby in her hands and the rest of us hanging on to each other. So we don' ; t fall off the train because we' ; re, we' ; re, we' ; re sitting on our suitcases between the, where, the, where, the where, the, you know, trains locked together like this because they needed the room for the soldiers and other people who were there, you know, so, and we were just going to go join my dad and in the lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas, right near the Mexican border. AT: 07:11 Do you know how that worked? Did he leave first and then, you? JF: 07:16 Yeah, he left first to make sure that he find a place for us to stay. And all like that. And he had to write many letters to get permission to leave and, uh, and get, you know, people' ; s saying he' ; s good character and all that stuff. AT: 07:32 And where in Texas was that? JF: 07:34 That we relocated to? AT: 07:36 Mhm JF: 07:36 A place called Los Indios. It means the Indians and it was right near the Mexican border within five miles. In fact, the farm place was, um, it was, had, the land had to be cleared. It was mesquite and, um, cactus, you know, and so he had to clear the land leveling off, um, and then we could begin to farm it. So because we weren' ; t taking somebody else' ; s land that, you know, or whatever. But I mean, when we paid rent on that land. AT: 08:09 And how long was your family there? JF: 08:11 We were there for 19 years. AT: 08:19 Where, where were your first memories? Where were you living? JF: 08:24 We were living in what somebody said it was a ghost house because a person had, had been killed and his body and or clothes had been thrown on top of the roof of this house. And some people claim that they could see ghosts in this house, but, and it was just, um, a simple, just a room, basically one, one room. And I think there was an outhouse. And then, um, so it was very simple place, but we stayed there for only a short time I think. And then my dad had a little house, well, um, built, you know, and um, so we moved into this house and that didn' ; t have running water in the wash, you know, a regular wash, you know, bathroom and all like that with running water and flush toilets. AT: 09:10 And so that, that first has the ghost house, was that, um, were your first memories are of living of living there? JF: 09:19 Yeah, but, um, and I have to say the people that, our neighbors there were, um, Mexican Americans and they have, although they had lived there for many years and he could speak English very well, they still had, you know, some prejudice against them, you know. And so they were very kind to us, very, very kind of, we had, and in fact, we were still friends today because they were so, so nice to us and we have really good memories of all, are Mexican friends over there, so, but we, we located in Texas, yeah. After the war. AT: 09:54 And so, um, your dad, did he just continue farming up in Los Indios? JF: 10:00 Yeah, we farmed there for 19 years and we had good years and bad years, you know. Um, and we sharecropped 25% of your pay off the gross goes to the landowner first. And then, um, from the, from the rest of it, you pay your bills, you know, your, your farm laborers. Cause we, we, we farmed, um, what we started small and then afterwards you, um, find more acreage. But we were, we never really own the land. We were always sharecropping. I think at one time we were paying on 25 acres, but I think we were able to keep it out, so. Okay. AT: 10:42 And how would you describe your experience of growing up there? JF: 10:46 It was fun. We enjoyed it. We, we, um, we, we had a chance to learn to drive early. You know, because you drive a tractor, you drive a truck and you, you, you know, as long as it' ; s all around just on the farm, I, you know, then, then it' ; s okay. And then later on we got our licenses. Um, and, and we were, you know, we worked in the fields, but it was fine. I mean, everybody worked, you know, as everybody works with like nothing new, it' ; s something that you just do, you know. AT: 11:19 And growing up. Um, so then was your, your life and your days mostly school, and then helping out on the farm? Did you do anything else that' ; s outside of that? JF: 11:32 Well, like, um, later on they built a community house, you know, uh, um, they call it the Rio Grande Valley Royal Club and it was made up by the Japanese Americans, um, farmers who didn' ; t get together very often, but, um, I think we all pitched in like $1,000 a piece or something like that. And they built this little, uh, meeting place. And so, um, Christmas or, um, you know, there' ; d be a couple of times a year is that they' ; d get together at this place and, and there' ; d be um, shows they' ; d put on and stuff like that, you know. And my dad would encourage us all to learn a Japanese song and they do the Obon over there and tried to keep up with some of the old traditions, cultural traditions, and then we' ; d get together also would go to the beach because the beach was only 20 miles away. AT: 12:26 So did a lot of Japanese American families resettled there? JF: 12:30 Um, some had been there for many years before we, you know, um, most, most of them were already there, when we got there. And, but there were scattered, you know, when you' ; re farming and you, you know, you won' ; t, you farm 25 or 50 acres, you know, then the next acre, you know, the next farmers is down quite a ways down the road. And so it' ; d be from many different city, I mean, different little towns and they could be a hundred miles away, but they' ; d all come together to get together just to have this cultural and AT: 13:03 Um, did you grow up speaking Japanese? JF: 13:09 No, very little. I mean, we' ; ve learned a few words, but mainly we spoke English. AT: 13:15 So you don' ; t have to worry about Japanese school or JF: 13:18 No, there weren' ; t enough people there to have a Japanese school. Yeah. And we ended up going to a Christian Church, actually, the principal of our school, um, in fact took us to, Christian Baptist Church there. AT: 13:38 Baptist Church? Um, and then so what, where did you go after being in Texas? JF: 13:44 Um, we, we stayed in Texas for 19 years. And like I said, we had good years and bad years and we were down to the last thousand dollars out here and paying off the mortgage that the man, um, was not a very kind man and he didn' ; t want to extend it. And then when you think about it, you know, $1,000 more to go, you know, you could just take one piece of equipment and sell that and that would give you $1,000. But he chose to go by the letter of the law, I guess, then just foreclosed and took all the equipment away at that point. And, uh, so when that happened, it was like the second time my father had been, um, kind of cheated, you know, I mean, the first time was when the government took everything away and you know, when he was doing well and he got away with it, like very little. And this time it' ; s, it' ; s because this man was not being um, very kind. And he wanted to go by the letter of the law and he just took everything. So, um, and my father just wasn' ; t in a, in a frame of mind to, he wasn' ; t, he wasn' ; t feeling that well and he, so he just became very discouraged and he, he just, okay, I give it up, you can have the equipment. And then by that time, my brother and I were, um, one of my oldest sister had gone back to California and she had worked her way through UCLA and worked as a school girl and she became a teacher and was teaching in California. And then my brother and I were born in the same grade. We graduated the same year. That we, um, uh, and um, so he said, okay, now you two kind of take care of the family and that, that was the year my youngest sister was born. So, um, so then there was, uh, seven of us left and my brother and I, we were just a year apart. So we were, we took over the household and um, and I mean the earning money for the household. So then we moved in, we gave up the, we, we' ; re only renting the farm anyway, so we moved into the city park. And then, um, we, um, got, uh, uh, a home through the, um, like, like, um, I don' ; t know, this inexpensive housing. And then, uh, so that we only had to pay like a very nominal amount, like one week' ; s pay to could, would pay for our rent, you know, and then the other three, three, we used to pay the other bills that we had. So, but we weren' ; t making a lot of money there. My, my brother got a dollar an hour as in construction work and when it rained, you didn' ; t work, you don' ; t get paid. And I got a job. My first job was 25 cents an hour as a, as a soda jerk. And it was costing more money in gas to go to the job and out. I was only given four hours of work, so that didn' ; t last too long. We just, we might, my dad said you better quit that job because you' ; re not making any money. So then, um, my, my next job was with the, uh, the local hospital as well as the admissions clerk and really on insurance reports. So I worked there for four years. AT: 17:04 And um, I' ; m so sorry and this was, um, this was close to where you were in Texas, but not in the same, not Los Indios? JF: 17:14 No, not Los Indios. It was about seven miles away to town, San Benito, Texas. AT: 17:21 And um, and are you, did you end up in Chicago? JF: 17:29 Um, we had, um, my dad had had, um, sent money back to his brothers and sisters in, in the, uh, in the, and my mother, in the meantime, my father, grandfather had passed away. He died in an accident and they were on in the Hiroshima area. So for awhile we were like blanked out. We didn' ; t know what happened to them. And fortunately they were in the rural area and they didn' ; t get injured by the bombing. And, um, but my, um, w when he, as soon as we were able to, we sent for the oldest one who was there, my, uh, my aunt and she came back, you know, we brought her back to the States and she stayed with us for awhile and then later we sent for an uncle. Um, cause there were three, three that had gone back. The first oldest, four of my father' ; s family were in the United States, but the youngest three were, went back with my grandparents and they had bought property in, in, um, near Hiroshima. And, and we first sent for the one aunt and she came back and then she, she, um, she stayed with us for awhile and then she got married and then my uncle came to Chicago. Um, I mean it came to, came to live with us for awhile and then he moved to Chicago because one of my other aunties we had, well my dad was the oldest. There was, um, a brother next to him and then two sisters. And, um, so one of the sisters, um, was with us in camp and then she went to Chicago. Because she had an opportunity to go to Chicago. And the, the other Auntie I came went to Texas with us and she, cause she, she was married and she had, um, they were farming with it, you know, with us, um. AT: 19:11 Do you know what that was doing in Chicago? What kind of work? JF: 19:17 I think it was office work. I' ; m not really sure what she did. I, it wasn' ; t professional, she' ; s not a nurse or anything like that. So I imagine it was office work. AT: 19:25 Sure JF: 19:25 Yup. AT: 19:27 And then so how did you end up coming to Chicago? JF: 19:32 Well, um, we were not making much progress money wise. I mean we' ; re here in this, um, housing project, you know, and so, um, I guess my, uh, uh, well we had sent my uncle, uh, I had to, to, to be with a Fussy, cause my aunt in, in, in Chicago said, you know, there' ; s all, there' ; s a lot of jobs out here. And so, um, he had, he had gone there and he, he, he had gotten married and all that too. And this is years afterwards. He had gotten married and he had had a family and he had bought, even bought a rooming house, you know. And so, um, he said, you know, I, I' ; ve got the rooming house, I, you have space for you guys to come up if you want to. So first my brother went and then I went, you know, and uh, and then, um, and then a year later we sent for the rest of the whole family and. AT: 20:29 Around what time was that? JF: 20:29 Um, well it was 1962 then I came here and then I think in 63' ; we sent for the family. AT: 20:39 Do you know where that, or do you remember where the rooming house is? JF: 20:41 It' ; s on Clark Street, um, near um, near Webster I think between Webster and Dicksons or something, no Webster and not sure exactly where, but around Webster and you know, within four blocks, either way of that, that area. AT: 21:03 For the folks that had that were in Chicago before you, so you said your, your brother left a little earlier. Um, what kind of work was your family finding? I mean, it' ; s very different from farming. JF: 21:18 He became an apprentice for a tool and die maker and he became a master tool and die maker. And he' ; s, he, he, he was very, uh, uh, respected. I mean he became a master maker, you know. So, and he, and it was a good, good paying job, but he did have to apprentice for like 10 years or something like this. It wasn' ; t that fast. And that easy, you know, he had to apprentice for a long time before he could start making money. AT: 21:50 And, uh, what was the general age range of your siblings who are coming up? JF: 21:56 Well, um, in 1962 see, my youngest sister was, um, when 1962 when she came, when she was five years old, the youngest was five, five to eleven. Well, I, when I came here, I was 21 when my brother was 22. And so there' ; s that age group, you know, on down to five years old. AT: 22:21 And I' ; m sorry if I missed this your parents, um JF: 22:22 They were, they were, uh, my mother' ; s health was pretty good, but she was busy taking care of the children so she couldn' ; t work, you know. And then my father' ; s health was kind of deteriorating. So that, because I think within a year or two after he came to Chicago, he suffered a stroke and he was, you know, he was partially paralyzed and he had difficulty, you know. Um, so he, he, he never worked after he, you know, when he' ; s, when they foreclose on the mortgage and all like that, he was not able to work after that. He just became so discouraged, I think. Um, it was just like, it was like the world was against him, you know? AT: 23:03 Um, so did they come in 63' ; with the rest of the younger siblings? JF: 23:10 Yeah. AT: 23:10 Okay. Um, and then how would you, do you remember your first impressions of Chicago, when you got here in 62' ; ? JF: 23:20 Well, yeah, we, we, we were kind of excited to come to a big city. It' ; s quite a change from, you know, a real role setting that we were in. And they said there' ; s all kinds of opportunities here. So we' ; ve got, we took the paper, I think I came in on a Thursday or Friday or something like this. I took the bus up here and I got to sit on the first sheet coming into, I mean, you know, the first seat next to the bus driver. And I stayed in that seat the whole time and we got to go, you know, see everything all the way in. So that was just exciting. Just, just the bus ride and then, um, came to Chicago and they did that that night. I think it took us to see the city the night, you know, the lights and all like that. So it was quite, quite kind of impressive. And then they said, okay, take a look at the, get this, be sure to get the Trib or the other paper, the Daily News and, and mark, whatever you think you can do and then, you know, go out on Monday morning and, and, uh, see if you can get these jobs. So there was about three of them, one that I marked and I thought I could handle. And um, and uh, by the time I' ; d finished on Monday, um, I, I, um, got two job offers. Yeah. And I took the one that paid more. It was like 75 and $85. So I, I took the $85 a week job. And this is compared to like, after working four years, I think I was making $50 a week over in Texas. So this is, um, you know, like a big jump in my pay. So AT: 24:50 And what kind of work was that? JF: 24:53 It was clerical also. Yeah. And Cook County Department AT: 24:57 What, do you remember the agency or the? JF: 25:02 Oh, it was a printing company. And I worked, I ended up working there for nine years and then the company went bankrupt. And then, uh, then after that, I, um, uh, one of the men who work for the company started his own business and it was, um, printing, but it also had to do with artwork and stuff like that. And he asked me if I' ; d work for him and I, I needed a job. So I, you know, and this job was going bank, it went bankrupt so that I, I followed him. And, uh, so I stayed with him for 21 years after that. And, uh, he, he became very successful and, uh, he was a very nice person. And, uh, um, and, and the company grew and now it' ; s called AGI incorporated and it' ; s a printing printing company. And they worked with um printing, not only um, like record jack. We were doing record jackets at the time. We were working with polygram records and then we did a Rod Stewart album and uh, different, well known people at that time. AT: 26:11 What was the original company called? JF: 26:13 Album, it was Album Graphics Incorporated. AT: 26:17 The one that went bankrupt? JF: 26:18 No Rapid Copy Service. New Speaker: 26:21 Okay. JF: 26:21 Yeah, no, the one that did well is Album Graphics Incorporated and then later changed the name to AGI Incorporated. Yeah, so. AT: 26:30 And uh, did you, did you attend church or were you involved in other activities when you were in Chicago? JF: 26:40 In 1962 when we came to, um, we were looking for a Japanese church, but uh we wanted to come to a Christian Church. And so they say, well, just go down the street here. So then we started walking out down Sheffield and um, ended up 10 blocks later at the church. It was Lakeside Japanese Christian Church. AT: 27:09 Yeah. And can you just tell me a little bit more about your, um, your experiences going to Lakeside? JF: 27:19 Um, well, it was a very friendly church and, um, bible-based fundamental Bible based church. Um, it was considered strict by, you know, uh, but, but the people were friendly, very nice and welcomed us so that we immediately felt right at home there. And then, um, I got involved with like, you know, the, the Sunday school and um, um, they had summer camps for the kids and stuff like that. And so you get involved and also learning to do became counselor at the camps and um, and get involved with Sunday school. And so you get busy doing kind of church work, you know, but it was, it was, um, and I was also taking night classes trying to, you know, work towards a degree. But then I, when we, our company moved out though to and I was starting working long, longer hours and, and so I didn' ; t stay focused on my, my schooling. So there no excuse for that. But I didn' ; t finish. I didn' ; t get a degree but I have about 70 hours of night classes and stuff like that. AT: 28:35 Okay. Um, at that time came to Chicago, uh, it sounds like you were reaching out and trying to tap into the Japanese American community here. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about what the community looks like at that time. Were there um, you know, certain neighborhoods or businesses or anything like? JF: 29:02 You know, we weren' ; t really outside the church, we did not socialize. We didn' ; t have time because you' ; re going to school at night, your, you have your family, you, um, you' ; re working, uh, uh, extra hours or something, you know, a lot of times. And so, and then, um, I did, I did get involved with like our Sunday school and then ended up like coaching, uh, uh, um, our younger, like eight year old girls in softball. Uh, and, and we had even a volleyball team and, um, and, and there was a group called the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association at that time. And, um, that was, um, a group of all different churches, different groups, you know, so I like, I was a member of this Athletic Association for it. And so we would play when we play we' ; d, we play against these other churches or other groups, you know. And so we, we played against them, Midwest Buddhist Temple and um, Buddhist Temple of Chicago, the, uh, we, we met the Devon Church of Jesus Christ. We, um, we met the, um, uh, Church of Christ Presbyterian. Yeah. So we met all these other churches and, and that really enlarged our, our AT: 30:24 Network. JF: 30:25 Network, yeah. AT: 30:26 Do you remember any of those teams to go out as being particularly good? JF: 30:34 Well, they were all better than us, because we were like the bottom of the totem pole, I guess. And for me to be a coach was kind of a laugh because I don' ; t really, I' ; m not a good sports person, but they just needed somebody to say, okay, run, you hit the ball run, you know, or, um, so I was mainly a cheerleader is what I was, you know, just okay, hey, you can do it. Well, let' ; s go out there and we, let' ; s, let' ; s try, you know, so, but oh going back, the, my main reason for wanting to do this was I wanted to tell you about this family, this, this Society of Friends who were, um, during the war. But while my mom was in camp and, and even after camp, this lady was very faithful in, in writing to us and saying, you don' ; t, not everyone, not all Americans. I think that how you were treated as fair, we believe that you know, that, that you are good Americans too. And that we wouldn' ; t encourage you to, to not feel, you know, that the world is, America' ; s against you. Cause we' ; re not, you know, and she would write letters of encouragement to my mom and she would, uh, she, I know she sent a subscription to a Christian magazine called, maybe it wasn' ; t Christian, but it had, you know, like very encouraging types of articles in it. You know, uh, uh, you know, upbeat and, um, and that is with Sunshine Magazine from published in Litchfield, Illinois. Yeah, I remember that. And we' ; d get the, the, uh, the magazines and that they would read them in and she' ; d write to my mom and, and there' ; d be all this encouragement, you know, so that my mom didn' ; t feel like she was like out in, left the law by herself, you know. She, it was nice to have this and she was a member of the Society of Friends, the Quaker group. AT: 32:29 And, uh, when did that correspondence start or took place? JF: 32:34 I think it must have taken place right when we went into the camp. Yeah. She just, I think they adopted families, you know, and this lady was adopted our family as, as the one to encourage and she was very faithful in doing that for many years. Even after we left camp, she, she still wrote to my mom and, and so they, and I think my, my, uh, one of my younger sisters went to visit her because she lived in Erie, Michigan. AT: 33:02 And what' ; s was her name? JF: 33:03 Um, it was a Wilbur Smith family. I' ; m trying to think, put her, her name was, I can' ; t even remember her name, her name, but she' ; s the one that did all the correspondence. And, um, so she looked her up and, and she said they were, they were very welcoming and, um, she had a nice visit with them. AT: 33:20 And how did you hear about that story that that had happened? JF: 33:26 Well, I would see the letters come and my mom reading them and, and, and I would see the magazine and I' ; d read the magazines, you know, who is this from them? Why? And they said, oh, well she' ; s a lady, you know, she' ; s an American lady who thinks that, you know, at that agrees that were, we were done wrong, you know, and so, uh, and she' ; s in encouraging us. And so, um, so I remember the see, seeing that. I just thought I' ; d, I, I want to let other people know that. Um, yeah, that act of kindness, I mean, it was, uh, it went not just for a day, it was for years that she wrote to my mom and encouraged her. It was a very, very helpful to our family. Yeah. AT: 34:17 Are there any other ways that you' ; ve described that impact that, that you maybe saw, it had on your mom? Or maybe impacting too? JF: 34:31 Well, it left us open to, um, knowing the kindness goes a long ways, you know, and but, you know, the, the, um, my mother was raised Buddhist and, uh, we were raised Christian. But I think the basic thing is that I think the Buddhists too, believe in you' ; re being kind and doing your best and uh. And the Christians, of course, they believe in doing your best and, and, and um and relying on God to help you with that. You know? And, and so I, I think, uh, where the Christians are a little bit different is that, you know, they, they speak as if God, you know, God is your helper and he' ; s always there for you. And I kinda liked that idea of God being there for us. And, and, um, and, uh, I couldn' ; t understand why Jesus had to die for us, that we could have also done it without him having to die. But, you know, that' ; s my stupidity where I am. But, but, um, but God loved us so much that he sent his son to die for us. And so, um. And so we figured we accept that then then, and, and he' ; s always there to, to receive, uh, to help us, you know? And so why, um, I believe that God is always there for us. That he is um that he loves us and cares about us, that he created us so that he, that were very special and that we, in turn, should return his love by helping and loving others around us. AT: 36:28 One thing I wanted to ask you was, um, of course you are, you are very young at the time of, um, incarceration. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your own experience and kind of learning about what had happened to your family? Was it something that was discussed or JF: 36:52 No, I, um, we have pictures of this camp, you know, and, uh, and I' ; m sitting in a little chair with my little Black baby. I have a little Black baby. And I said, Gee, you know, um, they said what that was given to me, by um, I don' ; t know if this, this lady might have sent that baby to me, you know. But, um, and, and she said, and and I was told that there are kind people, even though we had to stay in this place, that they' ; re still kind people in the world. And, um, and I knew we were different, that we' ; re not totally accepted because we had this one, one kid in school who go, " ; Nan, nan, nan, nan." ; You know, like, because I had slanted eyes and and not that I spoke a different language. But then the other other, uh, children who are also Mexicans, they said to me, don' ; t pay any attention, he' ; s ignorant, you know? So I had, you know, I could send some prejudice, but then I knew that not everybody was prejudiced. And so I had, I had these friends who were supportive of me, you know, and I didn' ; t know them very well. We were just in school, you know, and we, and we wouldn' ; t see each other very much. You know, as soon as school is out, we' ; re, we' ; re, we' ; re, we all go to our own homes, you know, but, um, because the houses are scattered, they' ; re not close together, but uh. The, the Mexican people that we be, you know, that' ; d befriended us and that have remained lifelong friends, uh, were very kind to us and, and they didn' ; t, they weren' ; t prejudiced and they were, you know, so, uh, we, we, we' ; re very, we' ; ve been very fortunate. AT: 38:32 Um, and then, and then about your, your family' ; s experiences specifically. . Did you ever have conversations? I mean, to get like the, did you grow up knowing like, um, our family came from this farm in California and then I went to, um, so San Anita and Rohwer? JF: 38:58 Yeah, I think we, we knew about it pretty, uh, right away. I think we knew we were different, were not, we didn' ; t fit in totally in, in, in Texas either. You know, I mean. But, so we knew we and, and, and how do we get here, you know, we knew all that pretty well since we were pretty young. AT: 39:15 And, and what about like as far as your own family' ; s experiences? So you told me about, um, some of the losses that you' ; re family experienced. Um, did you learn about that through your conversations with your parents about it or was it something that maybe you don' ; t recall exactly when you picked that up? JF: 39:38 Um, yeah. But yeah, it was through conversations with our family. My parents were open about it than some other people that you hear a lot of them saying that they didn' ; t say a word about what happened. But I guess because we, we were, um, my, my dad was pretty open about things and um. Well, he was Nisei, and see a lot of these other people, they didn' ; t speak about it because their parents were Issei. My dad was a Nisei, he was American born, and he was very open, more, more open than, um, than an Issei parent would be. Yeah. So they, we knew what it was like from day one. AT: 40:15 And what, what were, what was kind of their take on it? Or their position? JF: 40:19 Say, well, it wasn' ; t fair and a lot of it was, um, economically driven. And, um, so she said, you' ; re gonna find people like that in this world, but you can' ; t hold a grudge against them all. You know, you have to be forgiving for that type of behavior. You know, and it' ; s not everybody feels that way. Just like this one lady is writing to us, you know? So, um, and they said, you just treat other people the way you want to be treated. Just like that. You know, God says, you know, um, do onto others as you would have them do unto you. He believed, believed in the Christian teachings. And so that' ; s why we were allowed to go to a Baptist churches, you know? AT: 40:58 And, uh, and how about your mother? JF: 41:01 And my mother too, she was very, um forgiving, you might say, you know, and she says, I' ; m not, not, not everybody feels the way the government, what the government did was fair. And so we were, and then, and then here, now we' ; re, we' ; re working in, in a, in a different place to sit. We' ; re starting over again. Um, we have our health, we have that to be thankful for. So there wasn' ; t that, we weren' ; t under a big cloud all the time. We were, we were kind of optimistic, you know, have a chance to make it here, you know. And, and we did have some, a lot of good years, you know, it' ; s just that some things, I think what happened to us is that, um, we joined this, uh, Japanese co-op and, um, there was somebody at the helm who was responsible for making the calls. Like when you, you, you, we carton packed um, our lettuce. We grew, uh, we grew some lettuce on there too. And we had lot of good years and, but this time we carton packed it and we put it on ice and we took it to the railroad yard and the guy and told the guy, okay, it' ; s all here ready to go. And he, all he had to do is make a phone call and he didn' ; t do it. And uh, cause I understand he was fooling around. So anyway, that, that lost our, our whole crop just about, you know, and, and then so you have all these bills to pay and you have no income for it. So that put us behind. And then I think that a couple years before that there was a freeze, which, you know, kind of hurt your crop. And so that combination of things, you know, put us back. And that' ; s the reason why we ended up losing not being able to pay that bill. And so, um, anyway, but that' ; s in the past, in the anyway. Cause we' ; ve been pretty much optimistic that we' ; re going to get through this and you know, but um, and then so Chicago was an opportunity for us to make a do good. And Chicago at that time was really good in that they had the Illinois state scholarships for kids and like, all right, so the, um, of the four younger ones, they' ; re all college grads now. Yeah. And they, and they worked their way, basically, they worked their way through school. We said, you have to make good grades. So they concentrated on the grades. They also worked part time jobs too. But, um, most it' ; s a wonder that they all were able to go through college, you know, and, and part of it is because we had the Illinois state scholarships available for them and because they worked hard, they made the grades. Now I don' ; t know if they have any such things available for kids, you know, but it was important. And, and, and the classes that I went, I, I went to city colleges in Chicago. Um, it only costs me $5 a semester, a trimester this trimester to go to school. And I could take as many courses as I want to do for $5. Like, I don' ; t know. Chicago is still, yeah. And have that opportunity. AT: 44:17 No I don' ; t think so. Um, as we start to wrap up, um, I, I' ; m curious because I asked you about, because your parents were pretty open about their experiences with camp, and the war time, um, I' ; m curious to hear about what, what your reflections are or are your thoughts about, um, your family' ; s experiences at the time? JF: 44:46 Well, I think it was unfair and I, I' ; d hate to see that repeated. And, you know, and like they' ; re saying, you know, we, we should, we should be working together and hoping that that doesn' ; t happen to the Muslim people or any other people. Um, and we do have responsibility to help in that respect. And I' ; m, I' ; m very grateful to the Japanese Americans and others who fought for this, um, Redress. And my parents did not get to take advantage of that. They, they' ; re the ones that lost the most, they didn' ; t get a chance to take advantage of that. And, um, the four younger, uh, of our family did not get a chance to take advantage of it either because they were born after. But you know what? They suffered, they suffered also because my dad had been kind of damaged by this, by this, you know, that he lost, he lost the spirit and wasn' ; t able to continue after, you know, after the second time that, that he, you know, the circumstances, um, we' ; re kind of unfair. And He, when he wasn' ; t able to do, where do his do his work because it took his equipment away again. So, um, yeah. Anyway, I it, it' ; s, it' ; s a shame that they didn' ; t get compensated, you know, so that, oh, but, um, four of us did receive compensation and, uh. But I thought, I thought we' ; d deserved it because of what we had to go through anal. Like, cause my dad couldn' ; t work afterwards. We had a raise, you know, raise the family. Yeah. Um, so although the way everybody has to work. I mean, it' ; s not that we had that much more that do than anybody else. This system we have given. We had to do it sooner anyway. AT: 46:48 Um, before we completely wrap up, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that maybe we' ; ve missed in this conversation? JF: 47:01 Um, I guess the, um, God is good. He does take care of us. He loves us. Um, and I think we should, we should all be concerned about other people besides ourselves. Life isn' ; t always fair to everybody. So wherever we can do good, we should do, we should be trying to help other people. AT: 47:32 Well, thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to speak with me. JF: 47:37 I' ; m glad to do it. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujiyoshiJane20171112.xml FujiyoshiJane20171112.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Fujiyoshi, Jane (11/12/2017)
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An account of the resource
Jane Fujiyoshi is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American who was born in California and incarcerated at Rohwer as an infant. She discusses her family's experiences leaving Rohwer to farm in Texas, where they lived for 19 years before eventually moving to Chicago. She recalls sharecropper life, the kindness of her Mexican American neighbors, and Japanese American community life in Texas. The Fujiyoshi family relocated to Chicago in the early 1960s, and Jane describes the challenges and excitement of establishing new lives in a major city.
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2017-11-12
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Goi, Mitsuo
Goi, Kikuno
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Kibei
Amache
Minidoka
Tule Lake
Oakland
New York
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Morton Steakhouse
OHMS Object Text
5.4 7/2/2017 Goi , Mitsuo and Kikuno (7/2/2017) 0:48:12 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Nisei Kibei Amache Minidoka Tule Lake Oakland New York Edgewater Beach Hotel Morton Steakhouse Goi, Mitsuo Goi, Kikuno Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/602254392/e5ba21753c Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/602254392?h=e5ba21753c" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Mitsuo and Kikuno Goi are a Kibei, Nisei couple who met in Chicago after WWII. Both were born in the U.S. but spent time in Japan as children. In this interview, Kikuno shares her experiences losing her parents at a young age, living in Japan with extended family, and in the United States in the foster care system. She recounts being sent back to the U.S. with her siblings just prior to the outbreak of war, and the emotional impact of being incarcerated at Tule Lake and Minidoka. Joined by their son Michael, the Goi's describe the challenges of establishing new lives and raising a familty in Chicago after the war. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Mitsuo Goi: 00:00 Oh, after parents came back to Japan, they had two kids one, I' ; m that one and the others living in Japan, Kibei, Kibei. Kikuno Goi: 00:13 He has seven brothers and sisters. MG: 00:15 Yeah. KG: 00:15 Three brothers came back- MG: 00:18 So this whole, my life story. KG: 00:20 -and the girls uh stay in Japan. MG: 00:24 So this, this country, oh boy, I have a camp in the way people that before me was, as I had to work, I was outside, I was working and go to school. Not that, you know, was, it very hard. Guardian was uncle. [inaudible] Anna Takada: 00:50 And so were your parents in MG: 00:52 Huh? AT: 00:52 -your parents were in Japan, during the war? MG: 00:56 Huh? KG: 00:56 Yeah, your parents. MG: 00:58 Yeah, after. You got seven kids, right? And a two, five were born in this country. So they, they' ; ve been working on the farm, well, they have five kids. You can' ; t house these kids in this country. So they sent all to grammar school and Japan, to grandparents. Grandparents, the grandmother was, a get heart attack or something. So she, they come back after five years, came back to Japan and then they would come back to Japan no more. They lived their lives in Japan. AT: 01:41 And, and where did you move to in the United States when you came back? MG: 01:45 Huh? AT: 01:45 Where did you, where did you move in the United States? MG: 01:49 United States, Sacramento AT: 01:53 Sacramento? KG: 01:53 He was born in Sacramento. MG: 01:53 Born in Sacramento so come back to Sacramento. I was guardian by my uncle. My uncle, he was in the, asked, looked for something for me to do. Okay, well I see. This is in the morning, it was seven to eight, nine o' ; clock, I go to school. After school went through, was it through afternoon, then by nine o' ; clock, by nighttime I wash the dishes, to keep my income coming. AT: 02:25 Do you remember- MG: 02:26 Huh? AT: 02:26 -when, do you remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked? MG: 02:32 Huh? KG: 02:32 Oh yeah. AT: 02:32 Can you, can you tell me about that? KG: 02:36 No Pearl Harbor. [speaks in Japanese] MG: 02:37 Yeah, yeah. Pearl Harbor, because, because we lived in Japan. They no talking about Japan fight, you know. Japan was 2500 years. It was in 1940, I came here 1940, I was 14 years old. My mom was, 15 coming in. I believe it was May 7th. So, so about, a month before my birthday, I came to here. Take the boat to from Japan to San Francisco. KG: 03:27 It was the last ship, you know, there weren' ; t any openings. You come back when the ship. MG: 03:28 Almost one month from Japan to here in the boat. That' ; s all my jumbo mumbo, I' ; m sorry, mixed up. But still likely, this much English I could talk. Because three years in the camp, you know. I didn' ; t have to work, I got to go school or high school janitor does. Class over, you know, clean up the room and anytime broken or something pull up the chair, open the door. Michael Goi: 04:05 So mom tell, tell her, what what happened. What did you think when, when Pearl Harbor was attacked in the morning when you were there. KG: 04:12 You know, I went back to Japan, my moth, oh my father killed. He was hit by a, he was riding the bicycle in the farming country, you know- AT: 04:24 In where? KG: 04:25 -in a California, just tried to find the land. There was no land, but uh, around um, Marysville. Somewhere around there, small, uh, farming down there, they settled over there. And then, uh, I have, uh, two other brothers, you know, and I was on last, one of them was born in 1928, and then when my father got killed, so my mother can' ; t afford to raise three kids, you know. So my uncle, my mother' ; s younger brother came with them, three of them came to, and he said, well, he worked on a farm, so he says, uh, let' ; s take the kids and go back to Japan because I, you know, my mother was kind of sickly and all the worry, so we went back. She didn' ; t, she didn' ; t even have the money to go back because, uh, that he, this guy hit my father. He said uh he wanted to settle out of court. You know, then he' ; ll give some money. But then, uh, you know, everybody said that, oh, he should put them in and take them to the court, you know to sue him. So she did and they lost, they lost the case. So she little money she had saved, uh, she had to pay that lawyer, so she didn' ; t have any money left. So my uncle paid all the fares, taking back to Japan. He said he would help, you know. And then, uh, we went back to Hiroshima, in the farming town, you know. And, uh, they had an empty house, and my uncle cleaned the house and fixed it. So my mother and the three kids lived there. Only half a block from my house, you know, so she was kind of sickly and overwork and went back to Japan and he was, she helped with the farm and everything, you know. And she died. She died. I was four years old, you know, AT: 06:26 And, and you were in Japan? KG: 06:27 Yeah. AT: 06:28 In Hiroshima you said? KG: 06:28 Yeah. So my uncle took us in his house. That' ; s where we grew up. And I was, I was, you know, only, only four years old. And um, I was afraid. My mother was alive, we used to use a fork and spoon. Well, when I moved uncle' ; s place, grandpa is like a samurai, you know. He, he watched some somebody, and I can' ; t hold up chop stick good. He used to hit them, you know, and knock them down because I, I always cry, cry, so scared, you know, and I' ; m so my auntie, you know, uh, always cares. So he get after my auntie, you know. You spoil her that' ; s why she cry. And so I when, when he died. I was so so happy. He was like a samurai, you know, he hate outside. So I grew up with my uncle and auntie. I just, I call them my mother and my father, you know. And then, uh, 19, 19, um let' ; s see, I came in 1941, in January. AT: 07:43 To the U.S.? KG: 07:44 Yeah, because my uncle knows that there' ; s going to be a war. 19, so he called my older brother, he was in city, you know, he was, fif, he was 15. Wen, went back to Japan. So my uncle took him to city, put him in high school and all that, you know, because there' ; s no high school in a farming town, you know, he had to go there. So he calls my brother and said, uh, explain to him, you know, he had a dual citizenship because he was the oldest. So we explained that, uh, you have citizenship, you know, too. So he said, you could stay, but your brother and your sister they, only have American citizen, you can' ; t stay here, it' ; s bad, you know. It was kind of fussy because government was always checking because we only had the, American citizen, you know. Finally he called my brother and said that, you go back to America first and then call your brother and sister to come back to America. That' ; s what we did. Like that uh, my brother came back in 1934 or something, you know, he had a hard life. He didn' ; t know anybody. He had no job. And he wandered around and met a bunch of same kind of guys, you know. So he joined a church because he loved to sing. And um, finally, 1941, January we came in that to, to takes uh, two weeks to get, you know, uh, ship, no airplane and ship and came, landed in January, um, 20 or something, you know. AT: 09:33 So that, that was after Pearl Harbor? KG: 09:35 No before AT: 09:37 In January? MG2: 09:40 Pearl Harbor was in December. KG: 09:41 Yeah, December. MG2: 09:42 Of the same year. KG: 09:44 Yeah, I came in January 19, yeah, AT: 09:47 Wait, January, I' ; m sorry. January you came January, 1941? KG: 09:50 Yeah. AT: 09:50 Okay. So that was before Pearl Harbor. KG: 09:53 And then a few months later, you know, we have to go into the camp. There was a, uh, 1942 in May. We went in the camp. My god, you know, I didn' ; t know where to go. No host. AT: 10:10 So what, what do you remember about, um, Pearl Harbor and that time? KG: 10:16 No, that time we were in camp. I said, yeah, well, no. MG2: 10:21 You weren' ; t in camp, until after Pearl Harbor. KG: 10:21 No, no. I didn' ; t know what' ; s going on because, uh, I was, uh, you know, my brother three years older than I. My older brother was in, you know, his, he didn' ; t have to go in the camp because he was in like New York or something, you know. So uh, I' ; m under age, so, so social worker moved us all over the place, you know, I was wandering you know, and you know, no worries so. So she, moved me to, my brother and I moved to a, uh, Methodist, uh, minister his wife different of the camp. It was to still Tule Lake, but different part it was. And then I stayed, I was so mad. I said, boy, you know, if I ever saw, I' ; m going to kill somebody. Hate, I had so much hate, you know, so they moved me to where they, I didn' ; t even talk. And one day this, a minister' ; s wife was doing a, uh, threading, you know, oh, I want to do that, you know, I said that. So right away she got the thing material. She teaching me how to do that, you know, oh, I was so happy. I started talking again. And you know, singing again up before I was so mad at everybody since I moved here, move there, you know, and I went and they had a place, a a in the camp, who showed you how to do it. So I went there, they said uh, no, I was 12 years old. You have to be 16. Okay. So I went to flowers and things, you know, and then they thing they say, well, same thing, you know. So I was moving around, walking around, look like zombie, you know, hate, hate, hate. Then I went to living with the minister' ; s wife. She teach me all this needle point. AT: 12:15 And, and which city was this in? KG: 12:19 This was in California. Yeah. AT: 12:21 In which city? Where? Where in California. KG: 12:24 California, Tule Lake, that' ; s the largest camp. MG: 12:24 Same camp I' ; m in. KG: 12:24 He came later, but I was there first. MG2: 12:24 Well AT: 12:24 Go ahead MG2: 12:38 Well, back up a little bit. So you' ; re in, you' ; re in California? You' ; re in Sacramento? KG: 12:43 No MG2: 12:43 No, before, before Tule Lake? KG: 12:46 Well, I was in us MG2: 12:48 Where, where were you when you heard about what happened at Pearl Harbor? KG: 12:52 Oh, I guess I was in camp already. MG2: 12:55 You were in the camp when Pearl Harbor happened? KG: 12:58 See, I came 1941 and I was living in Oakland. MG: 13:04 Even before I did. KG: 13:04 Oakland, I was in Oakland. And then the following year, 1942, we had to go into the camp. MG: 13:12 So that' ; s the time. KG: 13:13 Must have start MG2: 13:14 Yeah. But to December 7th, 1941 was when Pearl Harbor was attacked. KG: 13:20 Yeah but I didn' ; t know, I didn' ; t know. MG2: 13:20 Where, where were you? You weren' ; t in the camp yet? KG: 13:22 No. No, because, uh, no, I wasn' ; t in camp, but, uh, I didn' ; t know what' ; s going on, you know. And so, uh, following year, 1942, May, we all have to go to camp. MG2: 13:39 Yeah. But what happened? What happened there? I mean, uh, did they come and knock on your door and tell you, you have to leave? KG: 13:44 Oh, everybody knows they gotta move. MG2: 13:47 How? How? Well, what happened there? KG: 13:51 Well, we had to move out of the Oakland and then moved to Marysville. From there we went into the camp. MG2: 14:00 Who was with you? KG: 14:02 Oh, the Japanese family I was staying with, you know, and George, my brother and I, we moved to. So I didn' ; t even know there was a, you know, bomb or anything. Yeah, I know my son. AT: 14:19 So that, that second place you named, was that an assembly center? Did you, did you go to an assembly center? KG: 14:27 Was, yeah, in February, May that' ; s the assembly center. Yeah. Camp. That' ; s the largest camp. Yeah, Tule Lake, the called it Tule Lake used to be a lake I think. MG: 14:46 You know what, they segregate some loyal to this country, some loyal to Japan. Some went to Japan some sent back to Japan. Some loyal and stayed. KG: 15:03 Yeah, that' ; s how it was, you know, Tule Lake is by the thing. So anybody who aren' ; t loyal to America, they gotta go back. So I know some people went back, they said, uh, I said, oh, I wanted to go back to Japan cause you know, I just came here a few months ago. But they said no. The social workers said no, because my brother up there and only, I have my, you know, American citizen, so uh. AT: 15:30 So how, how did they know about loyalty? KG: 15:37 Oh, they had a big things. Yeah. AT: 15:41 So what, what things, how did? KG: 15:44 Oh, they had a like you know, like, uh, office, you, uh, uh, your, you want to, you know, you want to choose America or either Japan. That' ; s when they segregated and they Japan, they just shipped them back. And uh, Ameri, you know, even though this, uh, young men' ; s born in, um, born in America and was citizen, because they were Japanese American, they don' ; t trust them. Yeah. That' ; s why they have to, I know I got the movie, you know, you, when, they had to go through all this so many times, young men, throw the American citizenship. Said I' ; m going to, you know, even though they are American citizen, they didn' ; t trust the Nisei, so they have to, you know, pledge that I' ; m going to, yeah. That' ; s the way it was. MG2: 16:45 Move your hat. We can' ; t see your eyes. KG: 16:45 Oh, sorry. Yeah. MG: 16:45 She and I met, 61 years we' ; ve been married. AT: 16:58 Wow, congratulations. MG: 16:58 Can you imagine that? KG: 17:01 Can you imagine that? Yeah. MG: 17:05 After, I met her after I came back from service. My roommate was her brother was, you know, in the same building, you know apartment. KG: 17:25 Gave me a hard time. MG: 17:25 Only three years a difference. What was it? 80? KG: 17:31 I' ; m 88. MG: 17:32 I' ; m an 92. This is my son. My daughter' ; s over there too. This uh, I got two. Mitsuo doing okay. I got two kids. KG: 17:45 Yeah. You know MG: 17:46 They speak perfect English like my English is all jumbo mumbo. Good thing I had three years in the camp. Otherwise I would be completely washing dishes. MG2: 18:02 But we don' ; t speak Japanese. We know, benjo wa dokodesu, where' ; s the toilet? KG: 18:05 Yeah. MG2: 18:05 That' ; s the only thing I know in Japanese. Take move, move your hat so I can see your face. MG: 18:11 Luckily though. KG: 18:11 You know, it' ; s uh. MG: 18:12 I' ; m amazed myself. I' ; m able to live this long. my family no one live over 90. Youngest live to 86 or something around there, you know. And we have to, 92. We now in Japan, 12 years total, at 12 years. But when I was in grammar school. When I was younger, I was sick, sick every year, Japan, you know. But after I get, get, 12 years old. I don' ; t get sick no more, after that, after now. Japan, Japan 12 years. MG2: 19:00 Lean, lean this way. Lean closer to dad. KG: 19:03 Yeah. MG2: 19:03 Lean that way. KG: 19:05 You know, uh, Michael was telling me how the Japanese soldiers, Nisei, Nisei: Go For Broke and uh, that' ; s really tell you what' ; s, really happened. You know, don' ; t sign up. MG: 19:22 She, she' ; s about 17 parents, no, you know. Her parents died young. My father' ; s, lived to 65. My mother was 86. Died in Japan. KG: 19:42 So MG: 19:42 Yeah, it' ; s a long life you know. AT: 19:45 And so you left Tule Lake for Amache? MG: 19:49 Huh? AT: 19:50 You left Tule Lake and went to Amache? KG: 19:53 No, Amache to Tule Lake. MG: 19:56 Amache KG: 19:56 He was in Amache. MG: 19:57 Amache is, Amache is in Colorado. When they segregate, loyal and disloyal. Loyal and disloyal. Loyal to this country. Most dis, loyal to Japan, sent back to Japan. KG: 20:14 I don' ; t know how many people went back to Japan, but I know, I know a couple of girls, she said they were going back. I said, oh, I want to go back, because I just came a few months ago. But I was very unhappy. I didn' ; t know anybody. So what they ask is, you know, social worker. So at that time, they, uh, they moved me to the, this minister' ; s place, and I stayed at there, they' ; re separate, you know, there was this one, you know. So I was moved to Idaho. AT: 20:47 Minidoka. KG: 20:47 Idaho, Minidoka, yeah. And then my, uh, Episcopal priest became my guardian again. So, you know, I was still on edge. Oh you know, you need a tonsil. I had a real bad tonsil, tonsil, you know. So I said okay. So I had a tonsil surgery there. So, you know, I had so many [inaudible] and everything. MG2: 21:13 Mom, so when you were in Japan, you were in Hiroshima? KG: 21:16 Yeah. MG2: 21:17 So when, when you came to the United States, did the people you were with in Hiroshima, did they die in the bomb? KG: 21:24 Yeah, I think so. Some of them, because we lived in the country, you know. So that time, okay. But, uh, there was two girls no of them had a good heart you know. Someone in the village, parents died you know. And the brother had to war, uh Chinese and Japanese War. So two girls left at 13, 15 nobody wants to take care of them because of poor farmers, you know. So they always they take them in and then older, oldest one was 15 that, uh, when she became 18, she' ; s going to, she wanted to go to the city to look for job. And there was when moved out of this place, but the younger one was 15 so she, when she began 18 she, she says she' ; s gonna work with her, you know, sisters. But I think they died because of the bomb, you know. And uh, so you know, I mean move. They say, when do you want? I said, how many hours you have? I lose so much. You know, I was so much in the, I don' ; t know, you know, sometime I dream as, I can' ; t, I don' ; t know which one is my house, you know, I lost. So I told my daughter Frances, that' ; s not home for me anymore. I lose so much, ever since then, you know. AT: 22:53 So where did you go after, after camp? KG: 22:57 After camp? I had another one. At the camp, I wanted to, uh, I wanted to come to Chicago. I had a friend, I met that friend in a camp, you know, so, but then now, uh, I think, I didn' ; t know any English. So I went to school, but I didn' ; t learn any English. So, uh, my brother came from New York, talked to priest. What should you do? Take her straight to New York or send her to someplace, with an American family so I could study English. So they decide to send me to, you know, stay with an American family. So my brother went to, but he was three years older, but he didn' ; t stay too long. He went to New York. I stayed there a year and a half. And then I learned English a little bit. And there I said I want to go to New York, you know. So I got the job as a caregiver. She was a real, real nice lady. You know, she' ; s a widow and. But that didn' ; t like the men that take care of the house. Japanese men, you know. And uh, they had a couple of Japanese girls who before me, one girl was after the war girl, you know, sweet talking. I don' ; t like the sweet talking people, you know. So she had a fine mink coat, you know, this lady, rich family. Husband died of cancer and she uh, and these Japanese men worked for her, 35 years. She' ; s another one, you know, you kinda says things like, you know, I' ; m looking for, uh, tried to look for, uh, say something, chat together, give me that, you know, mink coat. You know, I got so mad because I' ; m not that kind of person, you know. And then I, I work and, but I think I worked about a year, year and a half, I said, oh, I' ; m gonna, I want to go, go to school. She cried, you know, I feel so bad. She was so nice. And the AT: 25:01 Where, where did they live? KG: 25:03 Ah, New York, Forest Hill. They had a home over there. And, uh, after I had left, she passed away, you know. She had a, um, she was sick, but uh, you know, um, nice down to earth kind people, kind of. I go in to buy a newspaper, you know, everything and uh, I see, uh, some, uh, artificial, not, not artificial, weeds or flowers. You know I picked it up and I said, look what I find over there. So she' ; s, she had a beautiful garden in the backyard, you know, but she doesn' ; t go out. She doesn' ; t see any flowers, you know. So I bring home little weeds and flowers. She said, it is so nice Kiku. You know, she, I get along real good. But then I, when I left she cried, you know, I felt so bad. AT: 25:57 So where did you, you said you left for school? KG: 26:00 Yeah, I went, I went to look for school and I lived there, and they sent me to someplace else. Why? Went through the door. Oh, that' ; s not a school. That' ; s a [inaudible] hanging all over the place. I said, no, that' ; s not the school. So come [inaudible], the girl said, no, no, come in, come in. Yeah, but I was looking for school, not the [inaudible], you know, I wasn' ; t. So she said, no, no, come in, come in. And uh, so she said, I show you. I was so afraid. What is this? I never had any experience doing that, or all that stuff. And I think I make a mess too, so. I worked a few months, a few months and I said no, I couldn' ; t do it. Yeah, so I said to my [inaudible], I want to go to Chicago and I want to go to school, you know. I had a, I knew um a couple friends from ah camp. I said, I want to go beauty school over there. Oh everybody, a first, first, can' ; t do this, can' ; t do that. All these people can do this. Then I got so mad, you know, I mean, I' ; m 19 years old and still they tell me, oh, you' ; re going with the wrong people. Yeah. The girl is no good because their parents are divorced. I said my god, I got so mad that I hit the woman who told me. She got mad. She got mad. She said [inaudible] you should be going around with the college student. I said, I don' ; t want college student, you know. So anyway, I got mad and she was hitting at me, I was hitting at her. So I came back and said my, my girlfriend, I stepped in and she said oh how did it go? I tell her, I said uh, oh, she was mad and I was mad, hitting the table. Well, I hit too. And I told her that her parents had divorce, meaning maybe scandal, you know, before the war. And what' ; s the difference I told. That' ; s a parents and she got nothing else to do you know. So I was screaming at her, she was scream at me. That' ; s why I got so mad. So I told that to my new roommate, you sure you want to live here? I said, yeah, I want leave here. I said, okay. But trust me, trust me, I said, you study hard, you graduate, you know, I said, okay. It was tough for her too, you know, because Monday, Wednesday, Friday, night school I had to go. And then, uh, it, during the day, I had a job, 95 cents an hour, my first job, so 5:00 o' ; clock I go downtown. 5:30 my class starts. I don' ; t get out til 9:30, you know. And then, uh, I' ; d take a, you know, bus home. Then I told my roommate, her, I said don' ; t bother cooking for me because you know I' ; m going to come home late. I pick up something. No, she always had a dinner cooked over there on the table for me. I just pick up and closed the door and you know, I needto study, you know. AT: 29:08 What, what did you think of Chicago when you moved here? KG: 29:13 Oh, I like it! Yeah! AT: 29:16 What, what did you like about Chicago? KG: 29:18 Well, everything was so cheap. Um only thing, I had to live with my sister in-law' ; s family because they, they are against for me to stay with my roommate, you know, so I had to stay with them for six, seven months, you know? AT: 29:34 And, and where did each of you live when you first moved here? KG: 29:37 Oh, uh, my brother, uh, my brother, three years older than I am, she, he decided to move to Chicago. He came to see me. He said, yeah, move, move. You know, he came to move and he got the uh, apartment close by, and then he and a few others became a friend, you know. AT: 30:00 Were you on the South Side? KG: 30:01 No, North Side. AT: 30:02 North Side. New Speaker: 30:03 Yeah. Like Clark and Division, around there. Yeah. AT: 30:08 Do you, do you remember, um, or did you use any of the like local Japanese American, um, like the Resettlers Committee or KG: 30:21 No, AT: 30:21 Viking Hall. KG: 30:21 I never, I never. It was so busy, you know. AT: 30:26 Working a lot. KG: 30:26 Yeah, working. And then like a Sunday, you know, it' ; s my, uh, sister-in-law parents, most parents who are real good to me, you know, and living with their never charged me point anything. So Sunday sat there all day, I got to go to school, you know, so Sunday I used to go Japanese, uh, grocery, I buy the sashimi, all this stuff. Taking it to the, you know, my, uh, she was so good to me. AT: 30:54 And so where, where did you two meet, in Chicago? It was in Chicago, that you met? KG: 30:58 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, my brother and him and a few others, you know, get together. They used to play ah Japanese hanafuda. That' ; s when I met him. MG2: 31:13 So dad, what' ; d you think when you met mom? KG: 31:18 Huh? You remember when you meet me? MG: 31:22 Hm? KG: 31:22 You, you remember how you meet me? MG: 31:27 Yeah, through your brother. KG: 31:30 Yeah, through my brother, Uncle Jimmy. MG: 31:33 I know his brother. Same apartment. KG: 31:37 Yeah. MG: 31:37 Cause we lived together. So you got a sister. So yeah, she' ; s getting old. AT: 31:45 What, was it love at first sight? MG: 31:48 Huh? AT: 31:48 Was it love at first sight? KG: 31:50 Love at first time? MG: 31:52 Oh yeah. I said I love you! No, Chicago I work, first in Summer House. Do you remember Summer House? You' ; re young, too young to remember Summer House. MG2: 32:07 That was like 30 years before she was born, Dad KG: 32:10 Yeah. Yeah. MG: 32:12 Edgewater Beach, Edgewater Beach House, never heard of? KG: 32:14 That' ; s the restaurant he used to work at. AT: 32:17 Edgewater Beach Hotel. MG: 32:18 Edgewater Beach, you remember? And now, Bank of America is over there. KG: 32:24 Those are way before MG: 32:26 Bank of America is over now. Used to be, a Northern Trust Bank. I was a dining room cook. So I did a good job being a cook lead. MG2: 32:38 You worked at Morton. MG: 32:42 So many cooks. MG2: 32:42 Morton on LaSalle. Morton Steakhouse. KG: 32:46 Morton Steakhouse you worked at. MG: 32:48 Steakhouse? KG: 32:49 Yeah. MG: 32:49 That' ; s on the. MG2: 32:52 Wells or something? KG: 32:54 Yeah. Uh, yeah, MG: 32:57 Steakhouse also MG2: 32:57 So that' ; s where I brought my first date. KG: 33:01 Oh yeah? MG: 33:01 Also Fish House, Fisher House MG2: 33:03 Yeah. Red something. I' ; ve forgotten. MG: 33:08 Yeah. Favorite place, I came out as a pretty good cook you know. Now, I can' ; t do nothing. This morning, I was making some kind of stuff. I don' ; t know what the ingredients are, I forgot. Oh my goodness. There' ; s just so many people but everybody is really MG2: 33:26 But after you retired from working, you, you just started painting. You never painted before and you' ; re really good painters. So where did that come from? KG: 33:36 Know MG2: 33:37 The painting? MG: 33:39 Huh? MG2: 33:39 You started painting. MG: 33:40 Oh, yeah yeah. Well, I' ; ve got paint [inaudible]. Now I see, Oh boy how could I have painted that? It looks so nice. KG: 33:49 He has so much time, you know, cause he, he was sleeping all the time and he said, you' ; re going to sleep all day. He comes home and I said, so I said that, um, after he, you know, I said, well, don' ; t you want to do anything? What should I do? I said, do whatever you want. You wanna just, he started going out of school, you know, senior citizens. And then, uh, he went, MG: 34:16 Now, now, I can' ; t do nothing. Where you take when you on the porch. That' ; s the enjoyment. KG: 34:22 Okay. MG: 34:22 And every time I go out the sun gets away, sun disappears, I have to come in the house. KG: 34:29 Well, you know MG2: 34:29 You have two children, you have a daughter who' ; s a nurse. A son who makes movies. MG: 34:36 He does a pretty good job. KG: 34:37 Yeah. MG: 34:38 He was on KG: 34:39 You know, we were very poor. Yeah poor. MG: 34:42 He' ; s a movie, movie maker KG: 34:43 Because when he came out. Before he went into a service, he was sending money to, um, you know, in Japan. Well, he went in army. He, uh, the company, I mean that straight to Japan. So he came out, he had nothing. Yeah. Nothing. We were very poor. MG: 35:05 How old are you now? MG2: 35:08 Me? 58. MG: 35:10 58. Oh, 58. Oh KG: 35:14 So you know MG: 35:16 He was born in 1961. KG: 35:17 Uh, so, uh, you know, my kids and they had a hard time. MG: 35:23 61 pretty soon. KG: 35:25 Because both kids who I went to go to college in the same time, I said, my daughter says, uh I want to go uh Loyola. I said okay. And then I don' ; t know where the money come. I don' ; t have any money. So she, she checked in my student loan, she got that and then she, uh, she bought the books. All used books. She never bought the new book, bookstore. And then, she took her own sandwich. And then one day, first day she went to, they charge her $1 for the drink. She said I' ; m going to take my own water. For four years never spending. AT: 36:09 Where, where did you raise your family? KG: 36:13 Chicago. Yeah. Oh, we moved a lot. Well, you know, his friend had a, I lived on the LaSalle street you know with my roommate. And then we moved to his, his, I didn' ; t know if it was his friend apartment. It was nice the third floor and all that. I didn' ; t like the, you know, uh, lady, woman, you know, she, she, she was so jealous. I can' ; t make a friends, in the same building, you know, she said, oh, she said this, I said that. Yeah, you know, made me so. And then my daughter was in kindergarten, and she had to walk so far in the wintertime, you know, close to Lincoln Avenue, all the way. So as soon as she, uh, finished, I said, I' ; m moving. She said, I' ; m not going to move, here' ; s my friend. I said you stay, I' ; m moving. Yeah, because you know, you had to. Uh, and then um, uh, where I moved oh, oh cause it was a small apartment, five, a room, just very, you know. And a kinda dark both side, because the building there. So pros together, but this Japanese man had it and you know, he said, I have nobody I lived there, uh, five months, or six months. Say I don' ; t care. And the school was a right cross street that, you know, she doesn' ; t, they don' ; t have to go too far away. And oh, kids are so happy, you know, and they could have anybody come over when I come home back home, what the kids did, they. I only had one room, room, the sofa, they sat on the floor. But they don' ; t care, they sat on the floor you know? So that' ; s how I did. He said, said, I' ; m not gonna move, this is my friend. I said, you stay, I' ; m moving. Yeah cause you know, because you got to think that' ; s his friend, he' ; s not home all the time. And you know, but I have to stay and then she complains uh, my daughter was small, but then she' ; s spilled the water on the floor or something and a third, third floor not much heat coming up, you know because there' ; s a opening there. If somebody downstairs stay open for me, the heat will come up. But some people, they don' ; t want to bother, they' ; d rather, in the winter, if it' ; s too hot, they open the window. And always so cool. I had a stove. [inaudible] winter time, all that time to heat up, you know, it' ; s a seven room apartment. So you know, I mean I, I don' ; t care if it' ; s a small, the kids are happy, that' ; s more important to me, then you know. So we had a bunch of kids come over, huh? So it' ; s five room, yeah, yeah, but you know [inaudible] okay. Huh? Yeah MG2: 39:13 Yeah. KG: 39:13 Yeah because I know that we couldn' ; t buy them a lot of good things, you know, cause we didn' ; t have too much money. But he gets a good money, good credit, I give him a dollar and then, he buys a record or something, you know, he writes music, you know, and uh MG2: 39:29 Well you asked me, you asked me when I was eight years old what I wanted to be when I grew up. KG: 39:35 Yeah. MG2: 39:35 I already loved movies and I said, I want to go to Hollywood and I want to make movies. And you said, well then that' ; s what you should do. KG: 39:42 Well, you know, MG2: 39:43 And then you got me ah that used eight millimeter movie camera. KG: 39:47 Yeah MG2: 39:47 You know. KG: 39:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. MG2: 39:49 And now I' ; m in Hollywood making movies. KG: 39:51 So I' ; m glad, you know, and that when they graduate, you know high school, okay. And, uh, I asked my daughter, you know. Uh, she said she want to go to Loyola and I said okay. He wants to go to? What? MG2: 40:07 Loyola Nursing School. KG: 40:08 No, you. MG2: 40:09 Oh me? Columbia College. KG: 40:11 Columbia, he went to Columbia. MG2: 40:11 Cause it was cheap. KG: 40:11 Finished the [inaudible] you know. And so everything worked out okay. Well, they got to suffer too, you know, I never could buy them a lot of the things. Which is why I gave them a dollar, you know. But uh, yeah my, my daughter never complained too, either. She knows in a way. And she was uh sixth or seventh grade, you know. I had an old sewing machine, I helped her buy because I, this young guy was trying to make extra money taking orders. So I thought, oh well, we buy that. So I had that, and then she started sewing cause I couldn' ; t buy any clothes. I had [inaudible] all the time, you know. And she buy material and she started sewing bras for me and she buy, make some clothes for herself, you know. So, yeah. Yeah. They had a hard life, but you know, who doesn' ; t? That' ; s why she, she' ; s a real good house cleaner. Yeah. AT: 41:14 If, if you could leave any, any message or legacy for your, your kids and your grandchildren, what would you want that to be? KG: 41:25 Well, I think they' ; re doing perfect. Yeah, they got a good, his wife too, Gina. Yeah. Good head. I don' ; t have to worry about them. My daughter too, you know? Yeah. She' ; s the one that tells me, when I' ; m wrong and this and that. She knows, you know. AT: 41:45 And how about your grandkids? KG: 41:47 Oh, they' ; re wonderful, yeah! Yeah. Real smart, they, they love coming to Chicago. MG2: 41:55 You two always tell me, you know, this is America and you can be anything you want to be. KG: 42:02 Yeah. MG2: 42:02 You know, which is a big statement for people who had all of their freedom KG: 42:08 Yeah. MG2: 42:08 and property and everything taken away from them. KG: 42:10 Yeah MG2: 42:11 What, what gives you that attitude that this, this in this country, you can be anything you want to be. When you were not allowed to be anything you wanted it to be. KG: 42:20 Yeah, well, you know. MG: 42:25 We' ; re taking too much time for you. KG: 42:26 We spend too much time? AT: 42:28 Oh no, not at all. I was just making sure the shot was okay. MG: 42:32 Talk, talk nonsense. KG: 42:35 Yeah, you know. AT: 42:37 You' ; re a nice lady. KG: 42:37 I figured uh, I mean uh, you can tell. You know, um she' ; s like my daughter was sick. You know, I had to go to work, I wouldn' ; t pay to send him for this doctor and the wife was a teacher. So if I didn' ; t work, she can' ; t go to work, you know, so, and the was kinda, you know, sickly and I show her. Uh, you take the temperature and the, the temperature if they go up that' ; s right, you give him one baby aspirin. No, he, she used to tell me, don' ; t worry mommy. I' ; ll take care of Michael. He was, she was so small, but I, you know, I had to go because otherwise I, she can' ; t go to work, you know, so uh yeah well, sometimes, you know, he gets sick and at that temperature, and I told them, thermometer if, if it, uh, go up there, uh, give him a one baby aspirin. Okay. Don' ; t worry mommy, I' ; ll take care of Michael. Yes, she told me that' ; s the best child. She was. Every time she comes she take my blood pressure. I said, don' ; t worry, you worry to much. She said know you because of that, I' ; m having problem, you know? But, um, yeah. And then he has a good wife too, and I' ; m very, very proud. MG2: 44:05 Yeah. Uncle George asked me before he died if I was gay because we had no children. KG: 44:11 Yeah. Yeah, my brother, you know he' ; s been dead ten years now. My brother, the three of us and how old was I? You know, yeah. My older brother came first. He was born in 1919. And then uh, he was in New York, he was in New York. And the last 27 years he worked for Japan airline. He loved the job, you know. And uh, so I went uh, and he died. He had a cancer. That' ; s a very [inaudible], you know, and uh, yeah, he had a rough life. The, the his first wife. Oh, she was something else. Yeah, nothing, you know. So the funeral came, she wouldn' ; t go. She, she said she wanted a divorce. She took the kids and moved to Los Angeles, you know. And so they don' ; t, she met this Irish girl, uh, she worked for airline, but uh different airline, but the same building, they have office over there. So, you know, she was very nice. I liked her, you know. She was outspoken like me, you know. And uh, so they went honeymoon to Japan and all of that. And my first sister-in-law, you know, she' ; s she' ; s, I don' ; t know. I met her in camp, you know. But then, uh, uh, she says, uh, she, oh, four of them came together in New York. And two, so one of the guys said to me, who' ; s going to say a few words from family. And then, uh, or I said I look around, you know, I figured one of the boys would uh, you know. Two boys and a girl and the four of them came from California. So I thought, well, somebody, somebody say they say let Michael say. You know, I was shocked. One of her sons should say it because it' ; s their father, you know. Well the, he says, you know, he, went he and the three other uh, boys who went, a week ago, drive to New York, you know. Got all the t-shirts and the dirty jeans other there. Stayed in the old, uh, apartment, you know, hotel. So they didn' ; t have any, uh, good suits or anything. So he said well, you were shocked too you know? MG2: 46:45 Yeah. KG: 46:46 Yeah, he was 18 just out of high school, you know. He said, let Michael do it. Huh? I says hah? Did you say that? Mommy, I don' ; t know what to say. What do you want me to say? She wanted me to do that. I said, gee, I don' ; t know what to say. Just say a few ones. You thank you for coming. You know this stuff. Two days. You did a wonderful job, because you know it' ; s supposed to be a funeral was Saturday and I, I wasn' ; t there Monday and she came Tuesday and supposed to be Saturday. had a everything all planned. [inaudible] and everything. No, she say she came and say, I want the funeral Thursday. Two days a later. They have to do all of it again, because my son have to work. He says I want to do it Thursday. That woman, I tell you, I' ; ve never, you know, she wasn' ; t like that way in camp. Ugh. MG2: 47:47 Well, now we' ; re getting into the gossip. KG: 47:49 Huh? MG2: 47:49 You should introduce yourself. You didn' ; t introduce yourself. You didn' ; t say who you were and, and you know where you were born and stuff. AT: 47:55 What' ; s your name? KG: 47:59 What? Yeah? MG2: 48:01 Tell her your name and where you were born. KG: 48:03 Oh, my name is Kikuno, Kikuno Goi. And, uh, I was born in Colusa, California. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoiMitsuno_GoiKikuno20170702.xml GoiMitsuno_GoiKikuno20170702.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Goi , Mitsuo and Kikuno (7/2/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Mitsuo and Kikuno Goi are a Kibei, Nisei couple who met in Chicago after WWII. Both were born in the U.S. but spent time in Japan as children. In this interview, Kikuno shares her experiences losing her parents at a young age, living in Japan with extended family, and in the United States in the foster care system. She recounts being sent back to the U.S. with her siblings just prior to the outbreak of war, and the emotional impact of being incarcerated at Tule Lake and Minidoka. Joined by their son Michael, the Goi's describe the challenges of establishing new lives and raising a familty in Chicago after the war.
Date
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2017-07-02
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hamade, Bill
Interview Keyword
Japanese Canadian
Toronto
Vancouver
Vancouver Island
Lemon Creek
Jasper
Duncan
Hillcrest Lumber
Sansei
Yonsei
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/19/2017 Hamade, Bill (8/19/2017) 1:03:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Canadian Toronto Vancouver Vancouver Island Lemon Creek Jasper Duncan Hillcrest Lumber Sansei Yonsei Hamade, Bill Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/304435618 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/304435618?h=79f348af58" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Bill Hamade is a third and fourth generation (Sansei/Yonsei) Japanese Canadian. A retired librarian with 31 years of service in the Toronto Public Library stem, he discusses his lifelong interest in Japanese Canadian history and family history. He describes his paternal and maternal families' immigration histories, their incarceration at Lemon Creek during World War II, and his own experiences growing up in Toronto in the 1950s and 60s. He also describes the difficulties he has encountered in researching these histories both in Canada and in Japan, and his motivations for pursuing this research. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Bill Hamade: 00:00:00 My name is Bill Hamade. I' ; m 68 years old and my hometown is Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Anna Takada: 00:00:07 Okay. And, um, can you tell me just a little bit about yourself, where you' ; re from and, um, well we' ; ll start with where you' ; re from, where you, where you' ; ve been. BH: 00:00:24 I was born in Toronto. And my parents met in the 50s. And I went to public school high school there. I went to university outside of Toronto in a city called Waterloo and also London, Ontario. I returned to Toronto as a librarian and, uh, I worked as a library in the Toronto Public Library System for 31 years. Then I retired a couple of years ago when I was 58. And, um, one of the things that relate to this is that I really wanted to maintain or look at my family history and I made that kind of a lifetime thing that I' ; ve been doing and it' ; s opened my eyes to a lot of things, but not only for the history of the Japanese Canadians, but also the personal stories that my own family had done, had gone through. Um, with their experience in Canada from the late 1890s, right up to the present day. AT: 00:01:34 And can you tell me about, um, how and when you started to get interested in, in this history and starting to do your own research? BH: 00:01:45 I got interested in the history a little bit in high school, but in university I have a history degree. I decided in my fourth year, not my third year, to start doing information to do research on the experience. Uh, one of the first things I did in my third year was I did the use of newspapers as a propaganda tool for, uh, interning Japanese Canadians. And what I did is I took all the national papers from Vancouver all the way to Halifax to see how many articles and what kind of reporting would be done on the community and how it also of course, was the results and the attitudes of the public at large to the internment. And the need to in their eyes or whether it was something they didn' ; t think was really necessary. Then my fourth year, I, uh, did research on the internment itself, but also on the, um, possibility of, uh, Redress. And, um, I met with a couple of fairly prominent Japanese Canadians. Ken Adachi wrote a book called The Enemy That Never Was. I spoke to him about doing some primary research at the, um, the National Library of Canada and, and the other information that we might have within the community. The other person was George Tanaka who was a, um, uh, a person at the time, following the war, with the Japanese Canadian Citizens League I believe it was called. And they had at that time, already, started the movement towards trying to find out and trying to, um, uh, have advocate for getting Redress or, or some kind of compensation for the Japanese Canadians. As well as looking at having the Japanese Canadians be able to go back to Vancouver, and to the, um, the West Coast. But that was impossible. The government would not let Japanese Canadians go back within a hundred miles of the West Coast. So that was the kind of thing that I would research. AT: 00:03:59 Even are you talking about during the. BH: 00:04:04 This is the 1950s, actually in the 50s, that they were already looking at the injustice and then coming up with ways of doing this. And I believe the Japanese community also had the, um, the, um, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the, um, there was another group, the in Canada, that' ; s called a CCF party. It' ; s a Canadian Cooperative Federation, which later became the new Democratic Party. It was a, a left wing party, but they also advocated for the Japanese Canadians and they were also trying to try to achieve justice for them as well too. So they provided lawyers and legal, um, information and support from the community. So I, um, was very interested in that type of thing. When I did this research, it was before 1988 before the Redress Movement. So I, um, was quite interested in that. I didn' ; t get as involved in the Movement itself. It looked like there was a lot of people in there already doing it, but, um, it was always that kind of thing. Uh, and that of course also sparked, spurred my, um, uh, continuation of wanting to do family research of all too. So as I said, it was over 30 years ago that I started doing this. And, uh, I probably didn' ; t ask my grandparents, my parents enough questions cause it was, it was fairly hard for them. Though my father, who had been 24 when he was interned and was a Japanese National. He, uh, was not one of the ones that was as bitter as say, some of my, um, other uncles and aunts who were born in Canada. Although my father had come to Canada, when he was 10 years old. Um, were very, very, some of them were very bitter about what had happened, justifiably, but that' ; s what happened. AT: 00:06:03 Um, and before we get into your actual family story, I do want to ask a few more questions. Um, so when you were, when you were growing up, um, was there any kind of, uh, what, what was the extent of this particular history being included in, say, a U.S. History class or, you know, was it, um, was it publicly, did people know about it or? BH: 00:06:40 I don' ; t think people really did. Um, I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think I knew until later on in high school when you hear kind of things about it and the book The Enemy That Never Was, came out, I believe in the 70s. And so that did draw some attention to it. Also in Canada, the War Measures Act, which was the act that they used in Canada to intern the Japanese had been, uh, involved by, uh, Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, Justin Trudeau' ; s father, uh, to deal with the problems that were happening in Quebec. And, um, and I think that' ; s when it came out that it' ; s not, things happen again. And so, um, uh, my understanding is that' ; s when it kind of came to the forefront again. Um, the Japanese Canadian community also had celebrated a centennial in Canada in 1977. I think that in the multiculturalism, um, in Canada seemed to be developing quite a bit then. So people were looking at the roots again and seeing the kinds of things that were going on. And that' ; s probably how I' ; d gone into it as well too. I didn' ; t and I realized, oh, this happened to my father and all my grandparents and uh, and that was kind of, um, uh, a little obviously a shock, but then it, it, uh, to answer your question, it really didn' ; t come out. I don' ; t think in the education system that has the later, of course, and I, and probably the same as in the United States, but, uh, it' ; s something that, uh, we would never know. I even know to tell my own son now that this happened to his parents and grandparents, and I have friends, contemporaries of mine, that never realized. I remember someone a few years ago that had no clue that my parents have been ah interned. AT: 00:08:42 Um, does that mean, um, you didn' ; t grow up talking about it with your family or you didn' ; t? Did you learn about it through school and then you started inquiring? AT: 00:08:53 Um, my father was at much, much more open about discussing it and uh, which I found interesting, but he, that was just his personality. He wasn' ; t driven to tears. He just talked about the whole situation. He became an advocate, I think of human rights and labor rights, and I firmly believe it was because of, you know, he was, he was really looking after the underdog. Um, and so I, I think most of what I got was starting with him, my own kind of, um, studied all of this because of my history background. But then of course it did come out afterwards. It did become, I think, part of the educational system and something that was just there with the multiculturalism part of it too. AT: 00:09:43 So that means that you first learned of it through your family? BH: 00:09:46 I believe. Yeah, yes. AT: 00:09:50 I know this, I know that' ; s a long time ago. You might not necessarily remember. BH: 00:09:56 It was 40 years ago, I guess over 40 years ago. This all started coming up. Yeah. But I' ; m pretty sure that' ; s the way it was. AT: 00:10:06 Um, so if we could move into, um, what you' ; ve learned about, about your family history. I would love to hear, um, what you maybe start with what you knew from your family just from, from conversations and things like that. And then maybe we can go into what you found from your own research? BH: 00:10:29 Okay. Um, through my own family, I, the most of the information as I said, came from my father. He, um, told me that he was in a camp, in an internment camp in a place called Lemon Creek, which was in the Interior British Columbia. And he had also worked in road camps because he was a Japanese National. The government in Canada said on February 26th that they were going to do this with, with, uh, with the community. And he was shipped out on March 2nd. So literally four days later he was sent to Jasper, Alberta, which is now a National Park, but he was there on a road camp and he was only there for three months because there was a big flood. And then he said that he was sent back towards, the internment camp in Lemon Creek where his parents and his younger siblings were. He had, he told me, one of his brothers who was not very happy, with the whole situation had been sent to a more of a, another detention camp where the, the Japanese who were not being cooperative justifiably so, to Ontario and it was a different kind of work camp. And um, other than that, he would say that his youngest brother who was born in the camp in 1941, and uh, he was 24 years younger than my father. My father was born in 1917 and came, came to Japan in 1928. And there was some of the other things that my father told me. So that came out in relation to the Japanese National thing where he, it was his experience and was quite unique his parents of course were in the same boat, but he was a young person that was doing this. He also. AT: 00:12:23 So his parents came as well to the U.S.? Oh, I' ; m sorry to Canada? BH: 00:12:23 Um, yes, my, uh, his mother came in 1919 and his father around the same time as well too. So they were, my grandmother I think was only 20, 21 when she first came to Canada and my father was, uh, her grandfather, my grandfather was 24 then they went back cause my, my father stayed with his grandmother until 1928 my grandmother went back and brought him, brought him to Canada. And, um, my grandmother' ; s grandfather had also been to Canada, which I didn' ; t know and he came in 1899 and already had and had some fishing boats and my father worked on these fishing boats. So they were, that was most of the story of, of the family that I got from him. Um, my mother' ; s side of the family was different. I don' ; t know if you want me to speak about that. Um, my mother, um, was born in Canada on Vancouver Island in 1920, 1923. And at that time, the Japanese community wasn' ; t as structured on the island as it was in Vancouver. And, and it wasn' ; t just there but everywhere. A lot of Japanese children were sent back to Japan for a proper education. And so she was taken back by her mother in 1926 when she was three years old to their hometown and in Fukuoko Ken in a small village called Kurume. And, um, so she, she lived there, but her parents and her two sisters stayed in Canada and, uh, uh, they were, my grandfather worked in a, um, a lumber camp in a place in Duncan and was called the Hillcrest Lumber. And there was a lot of Japanese Canadians that had, had done that and there was a lot of Japanese Canadians who were born and raised or worked on Vancouver Island. And they were interned as well. And, uh, coincidentally they also went to the same, um, internment camp that my paternal grandparents went to and they had, they had not known each other at that time. So that was an interesting coincidence. Uh, just as a little funny story, when my grandmother, my maternal grandmother met a, heard that my father was going to marry my mother, I guess she had known him from the camp and said, I don' ; t like that guy. And so it was, uh, it was, it was a interesting thing. And then I, but my father didn' ; t go into much detail about that and my four grandparents really couldn' ; t speak very much English. And I think they had probably more of a harder time because they had built all their lives and, and uh, I think would have been difficult to talk to them about that. I remember my maternal, my paternal grandmother had kinda just waved her hand like this, and they' ; d lost a couple of stores in Vancouver and all the channels and the car and um, these were to my grandparents just built it up over 24, 25 years and well over 30 years. And my great grandfather lost his fishing boats as well. And so that was, that was all the stuff that I had found out more through the family. Afterwards, when I started to, uh, look for information. Uh, some of the information wasn' ; t available still because it was still protected by privacy because none of the people were still alive. But there were a lot of things from, I think, believe it was called the enemy cus, enemy property custodian in Canada. So I did find out some of the things that had happened with some of their, um, what, what they had actually lost. But when it came to the family history, that' ; s when I started doing things like finding out that my great grandfather had come in, it looks like in 1899. But he was also granted not as citizenship. I' ; m trying to remember what the term is for that, for Japanese. But in 1903, he was granted that. And the reason why was that the candidates were putting pressure on the government to give the Japanese this, because they couldn' ; t work as commercial efficient and unless they had this status. So it wasn' ; t, it was only economic wasn' ; t for the, uh, the right reasons. And, um, I think that, uh, what I found out afterwards were things that my father actually had his personal documents as well too. And so that' ; s how I found out a little bit more about what had happened. A lot of these documents I found after the Redress because they had to draw all these documents together. And that' ; s how I found out some of the other things where he exactly had gone. He had not gone into the detail about this, but I was quite surprised of where he had been shipped. And I' ; m focusing more on my father because he' ; s the younger one who was being sent to different camps in different lumber companies as well to do work. And of course, the interesting thing of course was that the paid, uh, my father, the Japanese to do this, but they also took out room and board as well too. So it was, uh, I was an interesting thing and when I looked at a couple of documents and I said, okay, so you paid them this. But by the way, we need the money to say, well, here' ; s where you lived at for where you lived and what you ate, which was well, we can symbolize our own opinions on that. Um, and um, really that' ; s, that' ; s when I started finding out, looking through city directories but also some of the documents in the, uh, the National Library. Just what my, where my grandparents and my father and my uncles and aunts had lived and, and the different places they had gone within Vancouver. And, uh, just what, what it was that they had worked for and what they had lost. So, um, what I' ; m trying to do now is doing the research of what' ; s gone on, what went on before they came to Canada. And, um, that, that, that, um, through, uh, work that my, uh, my son is doing is finding out what, what has actually happened in the small town that my great grandfather and my grandparents and my father came from in [Mio?]. And, um, and this is scary because it' ; s being done through Kyoto University and all the information is being interpreted for me because I don' ; t have Japanese language skills. And, and I think a lot of, uh, uh, Japanese Canadians of my generation are in that same boat as well too. And, um, so, uh, just the other day I found out that my great grandfather died in 1954. He had been repatriated back to Canada because the Japanese Canadians were given the choice of either going back to Japan for a free ride or coming East, uh, I guess on their own, on their own ticket to, uh, settle in, uh, wherever else in Canada except for that a hundred mile limit. And he had gone back in 1946 when he was 70 years old. The poor man had lost two, two boats. He' ; d been here for over 45 years, and just didn' ; t think it was more, was he gonna do, he was gonna live with his, uh, his, uh, daughter and son-in-law that they, they were already stretched from, from this bad experience. His wife, also, I should throw this in, because it' ; s something else I' ; d research too. She' ; d come to Canada in 1926 she had stayed in Japan while he was here. One of my aunts, and this is an interesting story, said she was a bit of a womanizer. So they said you better come over and it was sad because she came in 1926 and then she died in 1928 in Vancouver with, of cancer. And um, one of the things I' ; m trying to find out is where she' ; s buried because I' ; ve seen her death certificate with the British Columbia records, but it said, she' ; s buried, but I' ; ve been looking at records at um, uh, a cemetery in Vancouver called Mountain View, where a lot of Japanese and Chinese Canadians have been buried, but I can' ; t find any records right now. So I' ; m still trying to find that. Um, but my son actually, um, was shown by her husband, my great grandfather' ; s gravestone in [Mio?] And he died in July of 1954 which I did not know until about a week or so ago. So, um, we are trying to find out any information going back a few generations from that as well too. I have a picture of my grandmother with her, her grandmother, my great, great grandmother and I don' ; t know anything about her other than the picture. And I know it was taken in Japan because my mother' ; s wearing the kimono and her mother had known that her grandmother had never been to Canada. So it' ; s um, that' ; s still the thing that I' ; ve got through personal papers but things that um, um, have come up through, um, the Japanese Canadian National Museum and I guess other institutions will have this where I' ; m starting to find information about my family. So it' ; s a, it' ; s an interesting journey. Uh, uh, just hope I live long enough to see if I can bring it a little bit closer and we are looking for a koseki as well too. We think we may have one but we know we' ; re going to see if we can get one of those as well. AT: 00:22:36 I' ; m sorry what? BH: 00:22:36 A koseki. A family history, so. AT: 00:22:40 So, so for, forgive me. BH: 00:22:44 That' ; s okay. AT: 00:22:46 I' ; m putting this together in my mind, but were your parents still alive, um, when you began doing some of this family research? BH: 00:22:58 Yes, they were. Yeah. My father had died, uh, in 2006 and my mother died in 2009. Um, my mother didn' ; t know as much because she was in Japan as I had said, but she didn' ; t come back to Canada until 1951. Again, the governor wasn' ; t sure if they were going to let them back in. There was still that thing going on as well too. My grandmother also went back to Japan after the war and they were giving her a hard time about coming back to Canada. She was already been granted citizenship, but it was, I guess it was one of those things where, you know, no, we were not sure. And, and it was because the government still wasn' ; t sure what they wanted to do with the Japanese. And um, so when it came to talking to her, there wasn' ; t much of a Canadian experience and my grandparents had long died. And again, there was a language barrier and both of my aunts had passed away before I was even born and one had died in Japan. She went back in the 30s and died there. My other one died in Toronto in 1955. But they, they had my, the one that died in Toronto plus my two, my grandparents had gone through the experience, my other Auntie died in the 30s, so she had. And so, um, my mother didn' ; t really know too much and unfortunately because of the war she couldn' ; t come back. So she had stayed in, uh, Japan up to, uh, as I said, 1950, 1951. She did tell me stories about the war where she saw B29s flying over her village every day, dropping little metal sheets that said that would jam radar and send you down propaganda paper about, you know, should surrender that the war is over and this kind of thing. And it was funny because my brother and I, when we were younger, had built or build model airplanes and she walked by one day, she said, " ; Oh, it' ; s the B29." ; My brother and I looked at each other. We were only 12, 13 years old and not realizing that she had actually seen a B29. So I always joked with her and I said, " ; Well how could you tell from the top because you' ; d always see them from the bottom." ; She just laughed and she said she, it was interesting because she talked about the high pitch sound that they had made. So they knew that the B29s were coming way before. They had never, they were never bombed. She was in a farming community. Uh, but uh, she had heard about the two atom bombs as well and she heard the Emperor' ; s speech not really seeing they' ; re going to surrender, but, uh, it was the first time she had heard, uh, the Emperor' ; s voice. So you always hear about that in history. And my mother actually talked about that and uh, that' ; s without me ever saying anything. She just said she remembers in the village they all listened to a few radios. AT: 00:26:03 Have you looked into your mom' ; s family' ; s history? BH: 00:26:08 Yes, I have quite a bit actually. Yes. Because they lived on the island and they, it was more rural. It was harder to find things. So city directories it would get, there wasn' ; t very much there. Um, her older sister who had been born around 1918 or so had, um, worked as a housekeeper in Vancouver I think in Victoria. Um, in Duncan for, I think, a fairly wealthy family. I just, and her husband, after she died in 1937, I still had a scrap from her. And um, I found when I found her marriage, her marriage certificate online finally, uh, it had been released. That' ; s the first time they ever found out what the groom' ; s name was. So I googled it, found his obituary, sent an email to the, um, uh, the funeral home, just benefiting who I was and saying if there was any members of the family who may want to contact me or I' ; d like to contact some, what I' ; d like to hear from them. And a about a week later, so one of the daughters had contacted me from the second marriage cause my, uh, the gentleman and my, um, aunt had, didn' ; t have children. She died when she was 19 or 20, and they had been married in Victoria, BC, went back to Japan and she died. He came back to Canada I think, um, after the war remarried, but it kept some photo albums that she had. And the family sent me that. So it was very interesting. Um, there was everything from pictures of my aunt with his family. And um, then I also found out that she lived in Victoria a little bit longer cause then I had a family name [Koga?] and that helped me find more information. But, um, if you look in city directories, a lot of times they' ; ll just say Oriental they won' ; t say names and things like that so it was, there' ; s a lot of people with that last name, I guess. Uh, but there, um, it, uh, it kind of closed the book on that because we had never known. And the ironic thing is when my aunt had died in Japan, she was probably no more than 50 or a 100 miles away from where my mother was, but I' ; m not sure they knew or they may have known, but, um, they wouldn' ; t have known really known each other. And my mother left when she was three. My aunt was more Canadian than Japanese cause she was born in Canada and went through the education system. My mother was the exact the opposite. So, um, I did find out a little bit about that side of the family if it' ; s not the same and unfortunately because my grandparents and my grandparents didn' ; t have the language skills. But also I think, uh, it was something, I don' ; t think they, they really wanted to talk about. But I mean, I think the same with my paternal grandparents. It was just really tough. AT: 00:29:43 And were you, um, when you look back at those, kind of, the start of this journey of exploring your, your family' ; s history, um, and also the particular history of the Incarceration and experiences during World War II. BH: 00:30:04 Right. AT: 00:30:06 Um, if you, if you had to try to pinpoint what, um, inspired that or inspired you to do that work and, and what, what has, why is this important to you and what, what' ; s been the kind of the driving force, if you could name it? BH: 00:30:29 I would think it' ; s personal. There' ; s no question about it. I think having the history background probably had me thinking that way a little bit more. But obviously there' ; s a lot of people that don' ; t have the history background that have the genealogy personal part of this that I think they want to find out. And uh, one thing that does make it difficult I think are the language skills. Being able to communicate at the time. And as we talked about earlier, just the educational part and not knowing about this, this had happened. Um, I, I think that, um, I lost my train of thought on your question, again. I' ; m sorry. No, so it was, can, can you repeat the question about it? AT: 00:31:16 Yeah, I' ; m just wondering if you can talk a little bit about what has inspired or motivated you to, um, yeah, to start and continue this journey. It' ; s been 30 years as you mentioned. BH: 00:31:29 Yeah. I think what' ; s inspired me is so it' ; s not lost. I think it' ; s important that, uh, my son quite grateful that he is embraced this and he is really interested in it. But I, and I would like to think that future generations, whether it' ; s our family at large or people who are in the community and people who aren' ; t in the community realized that this had happened. This is how it affected people on a personal level. Um, and uh, even in Canada, there were many times where it was, it' ; s not gonna happen again because we' ; ve always had different immigrant groups come and we had the Vietnamese boat people were that, you know, just like the United States has as well too. Of course, currently there' ; s a hustle that thinking again, I know my, uh, my son who was fairly politically active said, " ; So what' ; s the difference between what' ; s happening with the Muslims now and what' ; s happening with my, my family?" ; And, uh, so I think just preserving all of this history and, uh, just the fact of making sure this kind of thing never happens again. I think are the, are the important things to, uh, ensure to, that' ; s, that just doesn' ; t happen again, but at the same time, on a personal level, it is just a, the memory of the family, uh, making sure that, um, future generations know, as I said before. AT: 00:33:23 And so do you just have one son? You have other children? BH: 00:33:26 Not I just have one son and I have a brother and sister as well too. And uh one of my sis, my sister lives in San Jose and my brother lives in Toronto, we do. Actually I live in Pickering, which is outside of Toronto. But, uh, um, I think I' ; m very proud but also happy that my, my son does see the importance of this is really taken a role in, um, gone back to his roots, literally gone back to where his great grandparents and, and beyond have come from. And, uh, I have visited there myself, but I' ; m obviously going to make the trip back again to just to, uh, be able to, you know, come full circle with it. And uh, I' ; m glad. And, uh, um, but I think that the people in Japan also have seen this history now too, that Japanese Canadians and Americans from their communities had gone through this experience. And, uh, with a different kind of wartime experience than what they had. But I think it was important for them to realize this as well too. And I think that this is something that, uh, that they' ; re seeing because I, I can see on this, like my great grandfather, he came back and who knows if he talked about it, uh, would know that this happened. And I think that the fact that this is all coming to light now with the Internet and that as well too, I think people are gonna realize worldwide that this did happen in Canada, in the United States. AT: 00:35:15 And what kind of advice would you give to people who are interested in, um, a similar kind of work? Of um, research documentation, preservation? BH: 00:35:34 I think, not to give up. I think you, the most important thing is to talk to your relatives. I, that' ; s, I think one of the rules of genealogy and a family history is talk to the people, they' ; re going to, they' ; re going to tell you things that you' ; re never gonna find any documents. Um, and just from listening to what they say, then you' ; re gonna know maybe which documents to go to. And it' ; s worth, I think that' ; s the thing that I would say to it' ; s worth it. It takes a lot of time. But, uh, it' ; s something that you shouldn' ; t forget. It' ; s, uh, you should be proud of, you should be aware of and perhaps, um, as time goes on, um, future generations could even do more research so you can start the journey, but it may be finished afterwards, but I think people in your family in the future would appreciate what you' ; ve done in the present, so what you' ; ve done now. AT: 00:36:54 And um, what were BH: 00:37:05 You can ask anything AT: 00:37:05 Sure, sure, I' ; m just trying to think of how to phrase this question. BH: 00:37:11 You won' ; t hurt my feelings. AT: 00:37:14 In your, in your opinion. Um, why, why is this, why is this history important? Why, why is it, is it crucial for everyone to know about? BH: 00:37:38 So I think so because I think a lot of people have different stories and experiences, especially in the United States and Canada with the immigrant experience. And, uh, there' ; s different stories, but I think that the, the stories, um, should all be told so people understand each other to this is the history that people in Jap, Japanese community came through the Chinese community with head tax. And the Jewish community was not being able to, um, weren' ; t allowed to come into the country. Middle Easterners, Muslims. I it, I think that' ; s the important part is that the history that the experiences aren' ; t necessarily exactly the same, but there' ; s still the experience. And I think that' ; s something that people have to be proud of. If you look back at the new people that are coming to the country now, but the past months and just the kinds of things they went. And I think it also molded the way, um, the country has become, the countries have become, whether it' ; s through government laws and legislation and so on, or if it' ; s just people' ; s attitude and, uh, uh, understanding of what people have gone through. Uh, hopefully again, and I know I said this earlier, but some of these things don' ; t happen again and that, um, we learned something from them. You know, I think that' ; s, in my opinion, I think that' ; s one of the most important parts. We' ; ve learned, mutual understanding. You see where we' ; ve come from, let' ; s go forward, let' ; s go forward positively. Let' ; s remember all these things that have happened, but let' ; s make it, make sure that we' ; re progressing and going the right way rather than going back a couple of steps. AT: 00:39:33 And on that note, what are some of your wishes for the future generations? BH: 00:39:42 Well, the unique thing well, of course I, I think, with any kind of, not a statistical wizard, but I think that, I think the Japanese community has done is, they' ; ve shown through intermarriage and through, um, having, um, this experience, the understanding of different cultures, but just looking at people not that way just as people and, and um, and yet say, well, we' ; re not, I think our grandparents might' ; ve been more concerned about us wandering down the system just because they were, they had that different kind of approach to what the Japanese were. But, um, I know that, uh, I think out of all my 20 cousins, I think only one marriage another Japanese, but all the rest had not. And I, and I realize that it' ; s part of the experience that the community had gone through. But I, um, also think that I look at the Japanese community is doing it now, but you, but now you can walk around anywhere in the states and Canada and you can see that people are friends. It doesn' ; t matter if they' ; re Black, white, yellow, Brown, whatever, that, that, that is starting to happen. And I think that' ; s what I hope and I, and I can see that the, the future can bring that, that it doesn' ; t matter that that doesn' ; t become, uh, uh, something that affects the society at large. I hope. AT: 00:41:28 And this is kind of going off to a different topic, but it just made me think of this. Um, I' ; m curious about what, what your experience has been with, um, the Japanese Canadian community? Was there, were you raised in, what kind of communities did you grow up in? BH: 00:41:54 You know, it' ; s kind of funny because when my parents bought their first house, the first house, their house in Toronto when I was born. So I guess the first house where actually, the second one in the suburbs of Toronto. Um, they moved to an area where everyone was a war vet. The Bentley' ; s, the Patterson' ; s, the Riley' ; s, the Chapman' ; s. Um, and I remember, uh, my friend' ; s mother saying to me once, she said, you know, when your parents moved in in 1957, we didn' ; t know what to expect. All we knew that was just Japanese family. Knew nothing about Japanese, never met a Japanese person before. All they had heard was through the newspapers, through their war experiences. My understanding is that none of them happened to fight against the Japanese. They all, fought in the European theater. But, um, so I was born and raised into that community just like my uncles and aunts who were Japanese Canadians. And I knew Oh Canada. I knew, I knew hockey. I know, I knew things that were Canadian. I also had things from my Japanese, uh, um, background as well too, cause my mother had been in Japan, but it was a nice mix and I wasn' ; t doing one. Now I know what I had mentioned are people that seem to all be of English or Scottish or Irish descent, but, um, there were also people that were Italian Canadians, Greek Canadians as well. And Toronto was starting to become that, I think in the 1940s and 50s and 60s, where it was starting to attract a lot of immigrants from different cultures. And, um, so to answer your question, I think there was that different that well that angst I guess with the community, uh, just on the street. But I remember when, uh, one of them say, well, your parents were the nicest people. They were respectful. They, you know, they really looked after their gardens, not the stereotype, but they were really ah nice, gentle people. And so it' ; s that thing about the preconceived notions and actually living with people that I think really came out of it. And, you know, don' ; t get me wrong, I still experienced a lot of, uh, uh, prejudice when I went to school. Um, there was a couple of other Asian families and a Black family and, uh, it was, I think we all know it was a different attitude in the, uh, approach in the 50s and 60s called a lot of different names. And, uh, you know, the war had only been over for 12 years at that time as well too. So when you think back now, uh, 9-11 is been longer than than what I had experienced when I was in a suburb of Toronto at the time. And so, um, uh, it was that, but as time went on, and I think the years went by and, and just the different interactions that we had with different people, I' ; d like to think that, uh, it was just change and it was like one other Japanese family that, or Greek family, whatever. It was a kind of thing. And I think as the, that generation of, of children started to get together, it didn' ; t, it didn' ; t seem to really matter. You know, we all played hockey on the street or we all went to the movies together. Or we' ; d play baseball at the school yard and that kind of thing. So. AT: 00:45:44 Did you know of any Japanese Canadian families? Growing up? BH: 00:45:44 We did. Um, partially because of the, uh, family friends. So friends that my parents had met, whether it was in Vancouver, British Columbia or was here in Toronto because, uh, the community did try to do things still together. They, uh, try not to, uh, I remember one gentleman said there was, uh, three, three couples, three Japanese couples of we' ; re going to a movie in Toronto. We all took separate street cars. And when we got to the movie theaters, we all sat in different areas of the theater cause we didn' ; t want to be together. And this happened in the 50s. So, um, you know, the, there was that, but, um, oh gosh, I have lost the question again. AT: 00:46:38 Did you grow up with other Japanese? BH: 00:46:38 Oh, right, yes. And so, um, and um, one of them, um, one family they' ; re uh, I' ; ve, I' ; ve still stay in contact with they' ; re very good friends of my, uh, my parents. And I go fishing and I still take, uh, uh the family. Some of the wildlife I catch and things like that, but it' ; s, um, I guess it' ; s kind of trying to preserve what my parents had as, as, as with families. But really it was more coincidence or happenstance, I guess if a Japanese families also lived in the same community and went to school with, with you because some of these other families were throughout the city. So it was more that personal apartment than there was within the community there, there was a couple more. Yeah. But we didn' ; t really, you know, it was just like another friend kind of thing or someone else you didn' ; t like. AT: 00:47:40 So, growing up, how would you describe your, um, relationship with your or your understanding of your own personal identity? BH: 00:47:53 Well, I was reminded all the time I was different. There' ; s no question about that. Um, but, um, for a personal identity, I, you know, proud as hell of it. So, you know, it' ; s, uh, uh, it' ; s something where, um, you know, maybe my, my son or, you know, and hopefully future generations aren' ; t gonna forget that their Japanese heritage, but they also embrace being Canadian. And, uh, well my sister' ; s American now and it' ; s, um, I guess it' ; s something that' ; s there in, in a way being a visible minority. I think it' ; s a little bit different because you are reminded constantly. But, uh, on the other hand, it' ; s uh I think society has seen it more as a, as a positive now. I mean, sushi places on every corner, isn' ; t there? But, uh, uh, you know, with the Japanese can we have a cultural center, we have national museum now and I think it' ; s great. So it' ; s not just the Japanese that I, I, I hope all of the different, uh, uh, uh, peoples that are around, develop that same kind of thing too. You don' ; t, you don' ; t forget where you came from. Don' ; t forget your culture. I think it' ; s important for other, uh, communities to see that culture and experience, you know. It' ; s great to have all of these different foods. It' ; s great to have these different dances, music. So, so on and so forth and then it also sparks interest and maybe going back to that country as well too, whether it' ; s Japan or somewhere else where these people come from and understand just what has made them the way they are and then uh, helps you understand more what, you know, what their background, how they are, kind of thing. AT: 00:50:09 I just have a couple more question. BH: 00:50:15 Yeah. AT: 00:50:15 As we wrap up. Um, what would you say were some of the, if you, if you could name them what some of the greatest impacts that the Incarceration experience had on your family and maybe yourself personally as well? BH: 00:50:36 I think the biggest impact was that they had to move from BC to Ontario. They had to start all over again. I think when they started seeing the difficulty other new immigrant groups were having or that they were going to make sure that there wasn' ; t going to be any problems with that. Um, you know, there was the economic part as well too. I know my, my grandfather worked, um, well gosh, he would' ; ve been in his 50s when he' ; d run stores and did things with fishing in that for years. And then all of a sudden he' ; s putting bowling trophies together or things like that, or just doing things to make ends meet. And um, really what it was, it was starting over again. And, um, being hadn' ; t been through the education system or through the government or just through society. I think that was a big impact. But I think moving to, cause moving from the West Coast and BC is a lot different than Ontario is. And uh, um, when you' ; re in your 50s, I think it' ; s a big thing. So I' ; m talking about my grandparents obviously, cause I think they had the most as far as, um, as a personal property and then that type of thing as well too. And they invested, invested all their life in, into Canada. And they wanted to stay. I know when I looked at passenger lists that they intended to stay, they did not, they did go back, but they wanted to stay in Canada. They wanted to make it better for their kids, for their grandkids and for beyond. So I think that' ; s the impact that the, um, the families did, you know. And I don' ; t think we' ; re unique in that regard our family. AT: 00:52:29 How about intergenerationally? BH: 00:52:31 Well, I, I think it' ; s the same thing. Um, the reason why, and again, I' ; m just speaking from my own family, but, uh, as I mentioned earlier, I have over 20 cousins and they have, um, children as well too. And uh, some of them are involved in things with the community. One of them does a, is the editor of, uh, of a, uh, a national Japanese Canadian paper and she' ; s a fourth generation Japanese Canadian. AT: 00:53:07 Which paper is that? BH: 00:53:07 The, The Nikkei Voice out of Toronto. And Kelly' ; s working on that. And I think, um, when I, when I talk to my cousins and, and, and I think their children, I don' ; t talk to them, but I think they, I think they realized just how important and how interesting the family history is. And I, and I think, you know, you' ; re always going to get people who aren' ; t going to be really interested in that, but you will get ones that are. And I think intergenerationally, I think there are members that are, I' ; m hoping that it goes, as I said earlier, keeps going. But, uh, until the whole story is told and I don' ; t think it will be a bestseller. But, but at the same time, I think it, uh, it' ; s important and, uh, it' ; ll be interesting to see how the Japanese community continues on, as, as we continue to become, uh, integrated within society. AT: 00:54:18 And I know I caught you before you were able to really get into the Chicago starting Resettlement in Chicago. Um, at some point I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on a comparison of, of that migration, uh, that many Japanese Canadians experienced. And then what happens in the U.S. BH: 00:54:46 From, so most of the Japanese Americans I guess went from California to Chicago and, and yeah, wherever else. AT: 00:54:53 Yeah, and so the way it works here was, um, Chicago took in the most people BH: 00:54:59 Oh. AT: 00:54:59 Um, in part because there was a labor shortage. BH: 00:55:02 Right. AT: 00:55:03 Um, it was considered a more, a liberal city or accepting. Um, but you know, folks also went to Cleveland, Jersey, New York, Detroit, just anywhere these. BH: 00:55:18 Big cities. AT: 00:55:19 In the Midwest and East Coast. And, um, the, the WRA, um, I forget the name of the kind of Canadian equivalent of the overseas, the group that oversaw the entire process of internment BH: 00:55:37 Um AT: 00:55:38 As part of the U.S. military. I just read it this morning. Um, but it was, it seemed like a similar, similar, um BH: 00:55:48 You mean to the, the AT: 00:55:49 Departments BH: 00:55:50 Yeah, you mean the department that helped that decided the ones who we' ; re going to be repatriated and the ones that were going to be sent to these. It wasn' ; t really citizenship. I' ; m trying to, it might have been labor. Could it be labor? That they were involved at one time, different ministries were involved as this whole situation evolved and so, and there was different things as well within that too. So, uh, gee I think I' ; d remember. AT: 00:56:26 But um. BH: 00:56:26 No, I am very interested in that. I mean that' ; s why when I saw this exhibition online and fortunate that I was able to see it, I really wanted to find out more about the American experience. Cause I knew about Manzanar, I knew about as I said, Tule Lake. And the 442. I knew about the regimen as well. Daniel Inouye, he was ah in Hawai' ; i? AT: 00:56:51 Mhm. BH: 00:56:51 He, uh, he, he had fought there as well too. Um, and I remember my, my father had mentioned that as well too. And then there was also in Canada, there was also a regiment too that uh fought. There were more interpreters in that, but still in, you know, but the point was of course they wanted to, and there was also ah in Vancouver, a WWI Japanese, uh, monument to the war vets who fought in the First World War in Canada/ Britain at the time. So, um, no, I, I, it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s interesting the parallels, but also some of the differences as well too. And uh, I believe our Redress happened, just, just after the ones for United States. Ironically, it was, uh, the government conservative government in Canada, and I think they were the government that was really pressuring the, the liberal government at the time to do something with the Japanese. So, you know, it' ; s good having the apology, but still, unfortunately everybody, I think just like in the States or a lot of the people that really should have heard of it. And benefited from it did this, was kind of too late. But at least it was, it was given so. AT: 00:58:17 Yeah, um. And the, I' ; m, I' ; m not sure about Resettlement of Canada. But that' ; s also something that typically has been excluded from the greater narrative of the Incarceration. Where the um, you know, oftentimes the most basic narrative is people were evacuated, relocated, went to camp and that' ; s kind of where the story ends. But for so many people, because you know, in California that are barred from returning, um, immediately at least. So, and a lot of people participated in this indefinite leave program. So it was a very orchestrated effort that the government, you know, wanted to break up these communities and in large part it was successful, you know. Many communities where we' ; re isolated and I don' ; t know, sometimes it just, it blows my mind that' ; s such a huge migration is kind of written off, and not really BH: 00:59:31 And then in the States, I believe there was over a 100,000 Japanese Canadians ah, Japanese people, but in Canada there' ; s was only 23,000, 24,000. And, uh, uh, you know, and I think that was part of it was breaking up the communities. They did not like Japantowns or, or, or being the hard workers in the fishing industry and working for less money. And, uh, trying to make ends meet and so on and that, but I think there was a social part of the economic part, let' ; s face it, I think was a big part. And so is political too, there' ; s no question about it. But uh, uh, you know that goes back to we just don' ; t forget that happened, that' ; s all. And in, in Canada it was Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg. Some people did go because they were farmers to Saskatchewan, in Alberta as well too. So there are still quite big communities there and uh they have cultural centers or some kind of thing going on as well too. And the East Coast, I shouldn' ; t have been excluded them, but I don' ; t think there' ; s much there. And a lot of people have gone back, obviously a lot of Japanese have gone back to British Columbia. My father said he' ; d love to have gone back, but his life was in Ontario now. So there' ; s another impact as well too. I mean he just loved it. And some of my cousins are there now, they moved back, you know, so. You know, part of it is it' ; s a lot better weather, but it' ; s also, I, I think they a appreciate what their parents, our grandparents had gone through too. So I suppose that part' ; s good too. AT: 01:01:17 If you could leave any message or, or legacy for your son, for generations to come. What kind of messaging would you want to leave them? BH: 01:01:32 I think um, not to forget. Not to forget that this happened, but also, um, the preservation of the family. And, uh, don' ; t, never forget where you came from. And uh, and just keep that message going forever. AT: 01:01:59 And is there, anything that I might have missed or that you' ; d want to add before we wrap up? BH: 01:02:03 Oh, goodness. Um, I don' ; t, I guess the only thing is, um, I guess kind of regretting that, uh, the personal stories maybe got missed from that generation that were most effective. Um, it doesn' ; t mean that the Nisei should not be interviewed as well. I' ; m sure that that is happening, but, uh, it' ; s, um, it' ; s better than the not doing it at all. And I, uh, you know, as a third generation/ fourth generation, I, you know, I' ; m, I' ; m retelling stories that I had heard from that about my father' ; s generation anyway, not so much from my grandparents, but, uh, researching it and I' ; m hoping that I can tell the story that way as well too. Uh, I think that' ; s what we have to keep doing is just, if you don' ; t tell the story yourself, it' ; s going to get lost. AT: 01:03:09 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to. BH: 01:03:09 Well, thanks for having me. I, yeah, I know it' ; s not, uh, I, I, well, I think it is so similar story to what happened in the United States. But, uh, um, again, I, I think it' ; s great for our community to realize what we experienced on both sides of the 49th as well too. AT: 01:03:30 Thank you. BH: 01:03:30 Okay. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HamadeBill20170819.xml HamadeBill20170819.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Hamade, Bill (8/19/2017)
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Bill Hamade is a third and fourth generation (Sansei/Yonsei) Japanese Canadian. A retired librarian with 31 years of service in the Toronto Public Library stem, he discusses his lifelong interest in Japanese Canadian history and family history. He describes his paternal and maternal families' immigration histories, their incarceration at Lemon Creek during World War II, and his own experiences growing up in Toronto in the 1950s and 60s. He also describes the difficulties he has encountered in researching these histories both in Canada and in Japan, and his motivations for pursuing this research.
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2017-08-19
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harano, Ross
Interview Keyword
Sansei
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Military Intelligence Service
Fresno Assembly Center
Jerome
West Side
South Side
Oakenwald Grammar School
Hyde Park High School
JACL
Junior JACL
Navy Pier
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/22/2018 Harano, Ross (3/22/2018) 1:32:25 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Sansei 442nd MIS Fresno Assembly Center Jerome West Side South Side Oakenwald Grammar School Hyde Park High School JACL Junior JACL Navy Pier Harano, Ross Takada, Anna video 1:|14(12)|25(8)|34(13)|44(4)|55(3)|67(8)|93(2)|105(7)|114(13)|131(1)|146(13)|155(9)|171(4)|182(5)|193(15)|204(10)|223(14)|239(3)|249(9)|262(12)|277(6)|291(11)|308(13)|325(11)|342(12)|356(9)|365(7)|376(3)|387(7)|397(3)|409(2)|420(8)|429(10)|439(13)|450(16)|462(11)|472(10)|484(6)|492(14)|503(3)|511(11)|524(13)|534(11)|547(8)|558(10)|569(12)|580(2)|594(5)|603(12)|614(7)|627(3)|640(13)|655(2)|668(11)|691(3)|712(12)|724(14)|736(3)|745(3)|756(4)|766(14)|779(2)|791(11)|819(14)|834(1)|848(5)|859(11)|869(11)|879(14)|892(4)|907(3)|915(5)|927(1)|939(1)|950(5)|961(5)|972(13)|984(9)|996(13)|1006(6)|1016(11)|1028(8)|1036(7)|1043(13)|1052(8)|1062(2)|1079(2)|1091(1)|1104(3)|1114(6)|1129(15)|1141(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/274598044/321dd77187 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/274598044?h=321dd77187" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ross Harano, a sansei, was born in 1942 at the Fresno Assembly Center in California before being moved with his mother's family to the Jerome incarceration site in Arkansas. His father's family was incarcerated at Poston. Ross shares what he knows of his family's roots in Berkeley, CA and Hanford, CA, the military service of many of his uncles in both the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and the Military Intelligence Service (MIS), and his family's resettlement experience in Illinois. Of particular note are his memories of growing up on the South Side during a time of rapid change in racial demographics and his involvement in the Junior JACL and other civic and community organizations throughout his adult life. Ross emphasizes the importance of individuals knowing and understanding the history of Japanese Americans during World War II, particularly so that we are able to be proactive in our efforts to ensure that nothing similar ever happens again. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Ross Harano as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society, oral history project. The interview is being conducted on March 22nd at about 10:45 AM at JASC. Ross Harano is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. To start, can you please just state your full name? Ross Harano: Ross Masao Harano. Anna Takada: Okay, and when and where were you born? Ross Harano: I was born September 17th, 1942 in the Fresno Assembly Center in California. Anna Takada: And so since you were, you were born right in the middle of the war, can you tell me a bit about your, your parents, maybe where they were from originally and where they were before Fresno? Ross Harano: My father' ; s family lived in Berkeley. My grandfather was from Fukuoka-ken and came to the United States through Hawaii in 1898. He eventually settled in Berkeley, California. And of course, my grandmother was a picture bride and he went up to Seattle... I' ; m sorry, Portland to get married, ship came in, matched the pictures, and then they got married right then and there. So I have their wedding picture and also their wedding certificate, the same day that she arrived on the ship. And then my mother' ; s family, is from Hiroshima-ken, and they, my grandfather came over in 1898, also through Hawaii, came to the mainland, worked for the Union Pacific and then settled as a sharecropper or a, a farmer in the Fresno area in Hanford, California, just outside of Fresno, both my grandmother on my mother' ; s side, grandma Mayewaki was also a picture bride. During the war when Pearl Harbor hit and evacuation notice came, we evacuated out with my mother' ; s family. My father' ; s family evacuated out from Berkeley and they ended up in Poston. We evacuated out with my mother' ; s family, because her oldest brother was already in the U.S. army. So we evacuated out from Hanford and there went to Fresno Assembly Center. And from there we went to Jerome, Arkansas. I was born in September and we left the assembly center in October to get to Jerome. From Jerome, we stayed there ' ; till 1943 and my dad, was able to get a job in Alton, Illinois in a greenhouse. And we stayed there for a year. And then we came to Chicago where he had a job with Bowman Milk. He had some refrigeration background, actually he learned in camp through Harvey Aki, who was a friend of the family in those days. And he was able to get a job at Bowman Milk. So he came to Chicago and ended up living on the west side of Chicago. My mother would tell me that they couldn' ; t get an apartment, any place else because Japanese were not allowed to rent in certain areas. And she could remember going out, looking at apartments and finding out that they couldn' ; t stay there. Some of them wouldn' ; t even interview her. So we lived in basically Humboldt Park, and my mother always talked about that. Anna Takada: Before we get into life in Chicago I do want to ask a couple more things just about the, the war years. So just to, to backtrack a little bit, So your, your family' ; s line of work was... on the West Coast was share cropping you said? Ross Harano: On my, my mother' ; s side-- my father' ; s side, he was a barber in Berkeley on Dwight Way. And my father was one of nine children. So they had a... He was a barber and my grandmother ran a laundry there. So she had nine kids to deliver all the laundry. And they did a lot of the work there. And my grandfather, once again, did barber work, plus a lot of, he was very handy, and did a lot of other things so that plumbing, whatever it needed to be done, he was a very handy man. And then I still remember that we had a family reunion in Berkeley, at the Claremont Hotel many, many years ago. And we had it there, ' ; cause my dad said, " ; You know, when I was a kid, I used to deliver laundry through the servants, through the back door all the time." ; And he wanted to walk through the front door as someone who rented, who actually stayed there. So we had a big reunion there. We have a family reunion every two years since 1973. Anna Takada: Wow, and I imagine nine, your dad' ; s family had nine kids. You probably have a lot of cousins. Ross Harano: Yes. Some 30 some cousins plus, and my mother' ; s side is one of eight, she' ; s one of eight. On that side, we don' ; t have that many cousins, maybe about a, about a half, a dozen or so. So I have a lot of first cousins. Anna Takada: And do you have any siblings? Ross Harano: Me? Yes. I have three, three kids. They' ; re not kids anymore. My daughter is the oldest and I have two boys. Anna Takada: And how about siblings? Ross Harano: I have one sister. Anna Takada: One sister? Ross Harano: And she lives up in Wisconsin. Anna Takada: Is she older or younger? Ross Harano: Younger, she' ; s my baby sister. Anna Takada: Oh okay. So at the time of the war, when you all went to Fresno, it was just you and your parents when you were born. Ross Harano: Oh, I was born there. Yes. So in World War II, I had seven uncles who served in the army. Four were in the 442 and three were in MIS in, in Japan, along with MacArthur' ; s staff. One of my uncles was wounded at Anzio, my, my mother' ; s younger brother and he was hit by a mortar shell. And he was in the hospital for over a year before he came home. My father' ; s youngest brother, next to the youngest brother was killed rescuing the lost Texas group. So, and then on the MIS side, my uncle, one of my uncles served under MacArthur and was in New Guinea and eventually stayed in Japan to work for the U.S. Army intelligence after the war. Anna Takada: And where, where did your first memories take place? What are you some of your first memories? Ross Harano: My absolute first memory was when I was about three and we had just moved from the West Side. My family, mother' ; s family pooled their resources and bought a house on the south side of Chicago on Oakenwald. And my earliest memory is moving there. And my earliest memory is my grandmother on the back of the truck. When we opened the doors, she was sittin' ; in the back of the truck with all the furniture and everything. And, and I remember that the house was on a corner, on a dead end and that all the, all the lawn, which we eventually made it into, was all filled with wildflowers. That' ; s my earliest recollection. My grandmother had Parkinson' ; s and so she was in a wheelchair since 1939, so... Anna Takada: When you, when you think about that memory, how does, what comes up for you? Like what do you feel when you think about the lawn and just remembering that house? Ross Harano: Well, getting old, I can' ; t remember what I did yesterday, but I remember what I did as a kid. I remember a girl I dated in high school too, all of a sudden, but I grew up as the oldest sansei in the house. My mother was one of four sisters and they all lived with us, and we had like 14 people living in that house. Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry, 14? Ross Harano: 14. My grandma and grandpa had their room. My, my mother' ; s youngest sister had a room. My mother' ; s other sister had a room. We had a room and my mother' ; s other sister had a room. So we had families like crazy in the house. And I remember we' ; d have to eat in shifts almost. And every weekend there seemed to be a poker game going, but it was fun growing up in that household being the only kid I was, my, my next cousin was, is five years younger than I am, four, four and a half years younger than I am. So I was, I was, really had the run of the house and just got spoiled as hell by my aunties. So it was a very happy household for me that I remember and then gradually they all moved back to California. Anna Takada: Your mom' ; s family? Ross Harano: Yes. They all moved back to Cal except my grandparents lived with us until they passed away. So, it was a very happy childhood. I, I had a very happy childhood and our neighborhood was very friendly. We lived on the south side in those days. South side was changing, and we were sort of in between the change, so it was a, but it was a very interesting childhood. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about how it was changing? Ross Harano: Well, growing up on the south side, Cottage Grove, which is 800 East, was a dividing line and Cottage Grove, because the lake sort of juts out, Cottage Grove is a North and South street. So blacks could not live east of Cottage Grove. And so in 1950, up until 19-, 1954, ' ; 53, ' ; 54, it was pretty segregated on the south side. And then as the blacks started coming east of Cottage, my neighborhood changed in one summer from white to basically black in one summer. And those days they had what you call block busting, where realtors were able to call up people on the phone and scare the hell out of them. And they could change a neighborhood overnight. And most of my friends were, were, all my friends those days were white, they' ; re primarily German, German background and they all ended up moving down to Oak Lawn, which is nothing but a farmland in those days. So a lot of my friends moved to, moved to Oak Lawn. And if you look at my grammar school pictures, you can see the change was overnight on the South Side. So my friends changed from white to black overnight. Anna Takada: And forgive me for not doing the math in my head, but how old were you then, at that point? Ross Harano: Well, took place in 1953, ' ; 54, so I was 12, so that would be seven, eight years old those days, yeah. Anna Takada: And just to clarify, black[block] busting, that were, was it like threats that were made to... or? Ross Harano: Well, it would happen if and South Shore went through the same issues. So what happens is that realtors would come in and they get on the phone. They, they could even make threatening calls on the side, all sorts of crazy things, but they would basically scare the people into moving and that' ; s what they did. And so that' ; s why on the south side, especially in South Shore it changed overnight from Jewish to, to basically middle class blacks and our street was Oakenwald and we didn' ; t have that many apartments on our street. Very few, if any, there' ; s a couple, two flats at the most. So it was basically middle class blacks that moved into our neighborhood. So those were my friends from, from seventh grade on, on the south side. So it was an interesting change for us. We went to Kenwood Ellis church, which was on, it was Ellis Community Church in those days, which was part of the evangelical and reform church Reverand Nishimoto, George Nishimoto was there and it was basically a Japanese American church and it was considered an outreach program by the evangelical church. And then eventually about 1953, ' ; 54, it merged with another church on 46th and Greenwood called the Kenwood Church. So it became known as the Kenwood Ellis Church and it was fully integrated. It was basically half Japanese and half black. And, and it was a tremendous experience. We had Mahalia Jackson sing there for one, one night and I was an usher all the time. I loved being a usher because I didn' ; t have to sit through the services. I would usher people in, and go outside. Then I was, got stuck in the choir. I was singing all the time. So I had to stay for the whole service all the time, but it was, it was an interesting time to grow up in the south side. There were very few Japanese left and everybody knew us and we were very well protected. We, we felt very safe there. I know I did, and my sister did too. She graduated from, what happens that we went to Oakenwald Grammar School on 40th and Lake Park. And she was in seventh grade when they changed Oakenwald to a junior high program. So she had to go to another school way down further south, the old Gustavo High School. And she went for almost a year from the north, we had moved up to the north side by then. She would take the, the L train all the way down to the south side, to 46th and... 46th and Wabash in that range down there, every day to go to school, grammar school! Can you believe that? I don' ; t know if we' ; d allow that today, but she just, we just felt very safe and comfortable growing up in Chicago. Anna Takada: And you had mentioned earlier on that when your family first arrived in Chicago, there was a lot of difficulty around housing? Ross Harano: Yes. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about that? Ross Harano: Well, most of the area is... Chicago was a very segregated city, still is. If you ride the subway, you' ; ll notice that when you get on the subway, if you get off at Chinatown, for example, the, the structure, the passengers change from white to black basically. It' ; s a very segregated city, and it always has been. And in terms of our neighborhood changing, it happened very quickly. What was your question again? Anna Takada: You had mentioned that your, your mom had stories about the difficulty in finding housing. Ross Harano: Oh, yeah. There were very few neighborhoods that, that we were able to rent in. Uptown, there were a lot of apartment buildings up here, especially a lot of six flats in this neighborhood, which were converted to tall flats during the war. So there are a lot of apartments available up here. So a lot of, the Nisei were able to live in Uptown. This whole neighborhood, actually between Montrose and Lawrence, Broadway and Clark. There were quite a few Nisei that owned apartment buildings eventually in that, in this area here. Lakeview, east of Ashland, there was a lot of Nisei living there. And on the South side, we lived in Oakwood, which is around 39th and Lake Park all the way down Lake Park to, to about Woodlawn and Hyde Park. So we' ; re limited to certain areas of Chicago that we were able to rent eventually, and even buy. Anna Takada: And, but at first, do you know where your family was, like initially on the west side? Ross Harano: It was on Spalding Avenue in Humboldt Park. It' ; s around North Avenue in that area there. Anna Takada: Okay. And then how long was your family in that house, on Oakenwald? And what was the address there? Ross Harano: It was 4201 South Oakenwald. It was on the corner of 42nd and Oakenwald right across the street from the Kenwood L, that end, dead ended there. There was a big, a lot of tracks there for storage of cars. The Kenwood L ran all the way downtown at one point. You could hop on it and end up going around the Loop. Eventually it only ran from 42nd Street to Indiana, and then eventually it was closed in about 19-, I was in high school when it changed, when they closed it up. So about 1957, ' ; 58, it was... stopped running. But the neighborh-- we lived there, and it was pretty residential. And we bought the house, my parents and my grandparents and my aunties all pooled money. I think the building only cost $3,000, a lot of money in those days. And so they pooled their money for the down payment and they were able to buy that house on Oakenwald. There were quite a few other Nisei living in the neighborhood, not on, there' ; s one on Oakenwald, the Takeda' ; s lived there, around the corner. There were quite a few on, west of us on Berkeley. There were quite a few Nisei living in that neighborhood between 43rd and 46th street. Anna Takada: And so you mentioned that Oakenwald, demographically, it was, well, it switched, of course while you were there, but initially it was white and Japanese American? Ross Harano: No, there was only one other Japanese family. The Takeda' ; s were on Oakenwald where we lived, but further south, about 44th, 45th and 46th. There were a lot of apartments. So a lot of the Nisei lived in those apartment buildings. There was quite a few actually, lived in those apartment buildings. Eventually, if you look at some of these old things here, you' ; ll see, there were a lot of apartments for rent owned by Nisei. There was the Matsumoto' ; s owned a building on 42nd and Ellis, a big building. So there were a lot of apartment buildings that were eventually bought by the Nisei or by the Issei actually, they seemed to have more money than the Nisei. Anna Takada: And uh, what about... as far as... Well, you mentioned that your church was also very Japanese American and black, as far as, were there any other businesses or like Japanese American restaurants or grocery stores that you remember? Ross Harano: Well, 43rd street was the main street and there were, there was several Japanese establishments there. There was one, that he was like a, I don' ; t know how to describe it. He, we' ; d go in there and get shaved ice, and he was always, he was always a little drunk I thought, he always smelled like sake, and he had trouble finding the ice block and everything. And then the Yamaji' ; s own O.K. Grocery, which was a Japanese grocery store. And Harold Fujimoto had a grocery store west of Ellis street. So there were several, there was two grocery stores there. There might have been some Sun Cleaners, you know, the Hidaka' ; s had Sun Cleaners. So there might have been a Sun Cleaner there too. Now, 47th street, the same thing. There were some restaurants on 55th street. There are some restaurants owned by Nisei. Anna Takada: And did you, did you go to those businesses with your family? Ross Harano: The grocery stores, for sure. Yes. Yes. The restaurants, they weren' ; t, the restaurants were like counter restaurants, they' ; re almost like... Great food and everything, but a lot of the bachelors, a lot of single folks were eating at those places, we even had a whole family go out to China meshi all the time, so. Anna Takada: And so you mentioned that your family moved to the north side... Ross Harano: Yes. Anna Takada: When was that? Ross Harano: In 1961, the city of Chicago decided that they' ; re going to tear down the whole neighborhood, which they did. From 43rd, all the way down to third, to north, to ' ; bout 30... About 40th street. And they tore down all the houses and they built two big projects there. They, and eventually the problem they have with those projects, they were tall buildings, I guess two gangs got involved, one in each building and they were shooting at each other and the buildings were vacant for years. So about 10 years ago, they blew ' ; em up. And then they tore down my grammar school, Oakenwald grammar school. That whole area now has been redeveloped into townhouses and everything. So Lake Park and Oakenwald has really changed. There was even a, the tra- tracks that went across the, from the lake that went east towards the stock yards were torn down too. So, that whole area is really becoming gentrified. Anna Takada: But that' ; s... you said that was pretty recently? Ross Harano: Well ' ; 61, when they built the projects there, and it didn' ; t really gentrify until just recent years. Anna Takada: Growing up, were you involved in any kind of extracurricular activities as a kid like when you were still in grammar school? Ross Harano: In grammar school, we were pretty active in grammar school. We had a, I was in boys chorus. We had a square dancing group, all sorts of things in school. Outside of school, I wasn' ; t that active in too much. I had all my aunties to take care of me. And I' ; d go to church and that was about it. Not active in anything. My mother wanted me to go to Nihon Gakkou, with Reverend... and I went for a couple Saturdays. And I' ; m in the beginners class. I' ; m like 12, 13, and these kids are like seven or eight. I said, " ; Mom, I, I can' ; t take this." ; So I, I dropped out. Anna Takada: And where was that out of? Ross Harano: Pardon? Anna Takada: Was that out of church or... Ross Harano: It was, it was Reverend, Reverend Fukushina [Mukushina] who had his own... they had a school in their apartment on 44th or 45th and Oakenwald. Anna Takada: Okay. And how were, how was your family connected to... was that just something that people knew was an option, was to go to Japanese school? Ross Harano: Yes, I, I guess so. I don' ; t know. My mother also decided I should play the piano, which I didn' ; t want to play the piano. So, anyway. Anna Takada: And would you say that your family... I guess, can you tell me more about what, like maybe the, quote-unquote, Japanese American community was like if that existed or did it feel like a community on the South Side in those days? Ross Harano: Well, I think that, if you remember the Buddhist temple on 53rd, 55th, it was a more closer tied in. The church I belonged to was, was great, but it wasn' ; t... we' ; re all close friends and everything. So I was active in church primarily, very active in the youth program and some sort of delegate to something and all that. But that was about the extent. Our family, my mother' ; s side wasn' ; t too active in too many things. They basically came from an agricultural background, and so we spent a lot of time just together. They really didn' ; t get too involved in too many things. My mother got very active in church and she' ; s very active. When we first got out of camp in Chicago, she got a job working at Hart Schaffner Marx as a seamstress. And she worked there until my sister was born five years later, then she stayed home. And then when my sister started high school, she went back there and got a job, same place, same people hired her, they liked her. And she became a union steward there. And, so we weren' ; t that active in the JA community per se. There was, I know the Resettlers here had the big picnic once on the South Side, on 44th and the lake. I remember going to that, seeing sumo and all that. But otherwise I never really felt Japanese. I think that was part of... I remember being in a program at church talking about that. And in those days, Sansei had this identity issue. Am I Japanese? Am I American? And all these issues. A big discussion was intermarriage in those days. And, and I can remember Reverend Nishimoto saying, " ; Wait a while, Ross, you have all those Japanese doll from where your grandparents at the house, your grandparents are still there." ; I said, " ; Well gee, you know, we never talked about it." ; I never thought about being Japanese and quite frankly, never crossed my mind I was Japanese. My friends were white, Black and never, they never called me anything. They were all good friends of mine. But when I graduated from Oakenwald Grammar School in January of ' ; 56... we had January graduates in those days, I was just turned 13 I think. ' ; 56, yeah, 13. And what happened was that we went downtown to the Roosevelt Theater to see a movie. In those days, if you' ; re 12 years old, you get in for kids' ; price. I don' ; t know, maybe a quarter. So I remember going to the ticket taker and I' ; m with all my Black graduate friends who graduated with me and so then... they' ; re lying like crazy to the ticket maker. " ; Gee lady, I' ; m only 12. Can' ; t you see how short I am?" ; And all this other stuff. So she let me in for a quarter and we sat through the, through the movie and the movie was " ; The Court-Martial of Billy Mitchell" ; , with Rod Steiger, Gary Cooper. Gary Cooper played Gary Mitchell, I don' ; t know if you saw the movie. Well, I' ; m a movie buff. So, Billy Mitchell was, was a, was a forerunner of air power in the United States for the United States Army. In those days, they, they even blew up... they bombed some old battleships to show that air power was there. And he was court martialed because he disobeyed orders about bombing things... about what he was doing. And the prosecutor was Rod Steiger. And during this whole trial, he starts talking about air power and that we have to recognize that we need to deal with it. We need to build aircraft carriers, for example. And so Rod Steiger said, " ; Well, you know, we don' ; t really y' ; know... what you did was you weren' ; t obeying orders." ; And then he says, " ; Well ..." ; they start talking about Pearl Harbor, and he says, " ; Yeah, Pearl Harbor could be a target." ; And then Rod Steiger said, " ; Well, who would bomb Pearl Harbor?" ; And Gary Cooper says, " ; The Japanese." ; All my friends looked at me and I said, " ; Holy mackerel, I must be Japanese. That was the first time I thought about it." ; And in those days, the TV had those World War II movies that was saying, " ; Kill those dirty..." ; and everything. So, that was the first time I started thinking about it. I just said, " ; Wow, I never thought about it that way before." ; But all my friends looked at me. I remember that. That was about five guys with me at this, at the show. So that was my first recollection or even thought process that I was Japanese. Anna Takada: I' ; m glad you brought that up because I was going to ask when, when that happens or becoming aware of your identity. So you were, you were 12 when that happened. When you were growing up, were you... I know a lot of families didn' ; t talk about the incarceration with one another, but were you aware of, you know, what had happened to your family and where you were coming from or how did that... Ross Harano: No, my family never talked about camp. I think every Sansei here would probably say talking about church camp, you know, summer camp and everything. They never talked about it. I remember seeing pictures of me as a baby in front of the, in camp and I said to myself, " ; Man, my folks are really poor. I' ; m sitting on the porch of a tar paper shack." ; So it didn' ; t cross my mind about it. I just assumed that... I didn' ; t think about it. I think about it, but I remember saying to myself, " ; Gee, that, they' ; re in a tar paper shack there." ; I didn' ; t think about it at all actually. And in September of 1961, went to a JACL youth conference. It was a joint EDC, MDC convention in Minneapolis. And Mike Masaoka spoke, and it was the first time I heard the whole story. It was really amazing. Most of the other Sansei said, " ; Yeah, we didn' ; t think about it. We didn' ; t know about it." ; All of a sudden I realized that with my uncle, my Uncle Chuck who was wounded at Anzio, his whole back was a scar, all the way back and all the way down the back of his legs was just one massive scar. And that sort of hit me, started thinking about that. And then in 1948, we went to a funeral, we went to North Platte, Nebraska. And that was the first time I really got to see all my cousins, that I remember at least. And we got together once before when I was a baby. We went to Poston, when my grandma, grandmother passed away in camp. But didn' ; t think about it. I had a lot of fun with all my cousins and one morning everybody' ; s quiet and I had to be quiet, and we went to a service and it was a funeral. I had no idea what it was, no idea. And then I didn' ; t even know it was a funeral. I wasn' ; t sure what it was. So then after Mike speaking, then I realized that my Uncle John, who was killed in Italy and... I' ; m sorry, in France, rescuing the lost Texas group, was reinterred in North Platte. So he was buried alongside... with my grandma, with my grandmother who was buried at the time there in North Platte. So all these pictures started coming together in my head saying, wow. All of a sudden the light bulb went on about things, about the camp, and about the war, about my uncles. And I remember as a kid, all my uncles had uniforms, they were all coming out of service. And we had a lot of servicemen coming back from Europe stayed at our place. Just quite a few of them actually who would come by and stay with... because I had all my uncles in the 442. So all these pictures came to me and then, so I get back home, I talked to my dad about it and I was really pissed. I said, " ; You know, Dad, you know, I would' ; ve picked up a rifle, did anything to fight," ; and everything. And he was like pissed at me saying, " ; Hey, you weren' ; t there, kid." ; So it was the first conversation I ever had with my dad about it at least. And my mom, I talked to her about it and, and she just said, " ; That' ; s the way it was. Couldn' ; t be helped." ; And so I talked to my grandpa a little bit about it. His English... I understand, I used to understand him. I, I don' ; t know why, but I did. And he... for him, the camp experience was a relief to some ways, but he was a hard worker. But he came back, when he came to Chicago, we worked hard too. He had a job at a greenhouse and then worked as a gardener for the University of Chicago. So it all came together all at once in 1961. And that' ; s when I realized what took place, and I realized as I got more involved in the, in the Japanese community, that our role is to make sure it doesn' ; t happen to anybody else. Anna Takada: And so was that, I mean, had you known that you were born in Fresno or... Ross Harano: You know I didn' ; t... I knew I was born in Fresno, I didn' ; t know why. I mean, it just said " ; Fresno" ; on my birth certificate. And I remember growing up in grammar, when I was in grammar school, I was trying to change my middle name from Masao to Marshall. I don' ; t know why I said Marshall. I didn' ; t like the Masao. I didn' ; t know what it was. So I remember that. And I remember telling my mother that and she just looked at me. Anyway. But once, I think most Sansei went through the same experience of all of a sudden realizing that you' ; re Japanese. I think the girl' ; s experience it a different way than the guys do. I don' ; t know why, but when my sister thought... my sister' ; s, my sister realized it in a different way. I don' ; t know, maybe from my mom, I don' ; t know. So anyway. Anna Takada: How did you get involved with the JACL conference? How did that happen, that you went in the first place? Ross Harano: I don' ; t know. I, I was still in grammar school and a good friend, my cousin' ; s cousin, Bob Omori, was active in this whole new thing called JACL. And they had just started a youth program called Junior JACL. I think Richard Kaneko was the first president, and Harold Hirai was the second president. And they had these dances, a beauty contest. And so somehow or other I was helping on one of the dances and I, we spent a lot of time. We had to do JACL something, princess of springtime, I don' ; t know what it was. And we got cardboard, and we made these letters, we cut it with the razor blade, wrapped in aluminum foil. And then next thing you know, I got involved in this whole youth program, Junior JACL it' ; s called. And Abe Hagiwara was like my mentor. I got to know him and he got me more, kept getting me more involved. Eventually I was president of the Junior JACL chapter here in Chicago and went on to go to all the conferences. That' ; s why we went to the EDC MDC convention in Minneapolis. Actually, a lot of guys joined Junior JACL because there were girls in every city. I mean, I had a friend who was dating a girl in Cleveland, dating a girl in Milwaukee. And, but so I would go to these different cities and we' ; d have conferences all the time. So we would meet. So I became, I was very active and somehow in ' ; 63 I was down the state in Champaign. There was a big conference in Salt Lake City. And so I was asked to go there. And so I went back to Chicago and flew to Salt Lake City. It was ' ; 63. I' ; d never flown before. So I flew to Salt Lake City on a 707. And the aisles were bigger, and there were stewardesses in those days. And it' ; s just like in the movie, you know, " ; Come Fly With Me" ; , whatever it was. These stewardesses, I just kept watching them, they were just so gorgeous. And I' ; m a kid in college at the time. But we went to there and it was the first time we had a whole meeting with the youth and the adults dealing with what to do with the youth program. From there, in 1964, during the summer, there was a JACL convention in Detroit. And I went, and I walked in, I found out I' ; m chair of the convention. I, I chaired the youth meetings. I was asked to do it, so I did that. And from that whole conference we decided, the youth there... there were over a hundred there, almost as many as adults or more. And so we decided that we wanted to have a national youth organization. So then in ' ; 65, ' ; 65, there was a meeting of all the youth around... the leaders from different, different districts, and they met to organize the Junior JACL National. And then I said, " ; I' ; m too old to be chairing it." ; So Paul Tamura of Oregon, I believe, Portland was the first chair. I was too old. I was 22, something like that. And then I became a youth commissioner for the district. And then I think I was chapter chair in ' ; 60 something, and just got sucked into it slowly. Anna Takada: So you mentioned part of the, part of why it was interesting and fun to get involved was the social aspect, meeting girls and whatnot. Ross Harano: Oh yeah. Anna Takada: But it seems like you were, you were pretty committed and you kept with it. Do you know what kind of inspired you or motivated you to be so involved? Ross Harano: When I get involved in an organization, I get involved, and I like to see things done, get done. And I dislike going to meetings, that there' ; s nothing happens. I was on the Service Committee board back in 1960 something, the first Sansei. I was on that for less than about a year and I got off, because it wasn' ; t accom-... the meetings were in Japanese and English, that was the first part that I, I just couldn' ; t sit through all that. So somehow or other I seem to be always in a position of chairing something. I, when I do things, I like to make sure it gets done. I like to make sure that the meetings are over at a certain time. And so somehow I' ; m always president of something. I just, I got off my last board about 10 years ago. So I, I just sort of seem to get involved in things and next thing you know I' ; m president of it. Anna Takada: And one other thing I wanted to ask before we can move on to another topic. So JACL has always functioned as a national organization with different chapters in different locations of the country. Can you tell me more about what the Chicago chapter was like in those days and maybe how that compared to other chapters that you saw or worked with? Ross Harano: You have to realize is that, in the Nisei, th-there' ; s different age groups. And the older Nisei in Chicago really had problems with the younger Nisei. They just were two different generations within a generation. So that when the JACL in Chicago changed from Issei to older Nisei... it was never Issei, I' ; m sorry. It was older Nisei to younger Nisei there was a lot of personel... personality issues involved, even between the Service Committee and JACL in those days. Anna Takada: What were some of those tensions or what was... Ross Harano: Just generational tensions. The old timers' ; Nisei group had their own prim and proper view of a lot of things. They ran the organization very, very on a-- Got to realize, JACL in the ' ; 50s, was an opportunity for men to meet women. I mean, there' ; s a lot of folks who got married out this thing. So it was really a social networking group for young Nisei. And so the younger Nisei who were single, this was an opport-- this was a method for them to meet their mates. And I guess a lot of folks did that and it was a social organization. So then the issue became, sure, we focused on issues dealing with the evacuation. The JACL dealt with the changing the alien land laws, dealt with the, the so-called war brides, all these issues the JACL dealt with mainly on a national level. On a local level, the chapters were pretty social within themselves, very little outreach, very little participation in the greater social issues of, of this country or the city in particular. So there was a lot of, the younger Nissei felt a little more committed to working outside the community, you know, doing work with the Blacks, doing work with Chinese. And so there was a lot of... not tension, just different goals and directions. So there was a lot of issues. And the same with the JACL and the service committee, the same generational issues developed. And so each group had their own turf and we still do. They still do. Which is great. Then along come the Sansei. I was the first Sansei on the board. And we had our own different issues. And so when I became president, and the first Sansei president, I brought a lot of Sansei on board. But we also had a lot of younger Nisei on the board, on the board. And the older Nisei were... okay. I mean, we dealt with them. There was a lot of conflict there that I can' ; t go into too much detail about it, but there was a lot of conflict for some reason. I think the younger Nisei told the older Nisei off a couple times. I think that' ; s what happened. And so I got involved. I think I was chapter president in ' ; 69 maybe. Yeah, ' ; 69, ' ; 70. And it was, it was very time consuming, very time consuming. And after that, I think I was district governor. Then I was national legislative chairman or something like that. So it, it got to be too much. And so in about mid ' ; 70s, I said, you know I' ; m getting, either I plunge all the way in and stay active nationally, go on to become national this, national that. I decided not to, I just said, " ; No, I' ; m going to focus here in Chicago more." ; So I started weaning myself away from... and I got active in other groups, human rights groups here in Chicago. And then in 1990 I guess, I was called back in to be president for a couple years. There was a transition going on between a Sansei, and so I was sort of a in between guy again, just to hold, hold the fort until the younger people can come in and take over. Anna Takada: And were those, those positions, was it volunteer or were those paid? Ross Harano: All volunteer. Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: I want to take it back just a bit ' ; cause I realized we didn' ; t talk about your high school experience and your, your family' ; s move to the North Side. Ross Harano: Well, high school, first of all, grammar school had a very important role in my life. There were very few sansei left, so I really, I really had the advantage of being a sansei at Oakenwald Grammar School. There weren' ; t that many left. I was the only one in my class. When I graduated, the whole class was Black. So I got really special attention from the teachers, which really helped me a lot. For some reason, I was the master of ceremonies at all the programs, so I learned how to do public speaking in grammar school. And then when I went to Hyde Park High School, which was the only integrated high school in the city in those days, most schools because of gerrymandering of districts were either all white or all black. Hyde Park was Black and white. It was very, the only integrated school at that time, which was a great experience for me. And plus I didn' ; t realize this, but all the valedictorians and salutatorians of the grammar schools that fed Hyde Park were put in a special division. I didn' ; t know that. And this was before they had accelerated points and everything like they do now. So, I' ; m in this division with all these bright kids. The parents are professors at the University of Chicago, and we had accelerated classes. I didn' ; t know that. And I came home, I said, " ; Ma, y' ; know, high school is really hard," ; because these kids were very bright. And since I was a January graduate, there was only 115 people in my graduating class, so it was a small group. In my division, we kept together and we still keep, we still get together all the time, our group. But it was, um, there were quite a few Sansei' ; s still at Hyde Park when I went there and we all had one table, two tables we' ; d eat at all the time. So that' ; s when I first got to really hang around the, the Sansei group. I really didn' ; t before, except for the church kids, kids at church. And then in my sophomore year, I discovered the North Side. And in those days with all the Sansei being teenagers, there were dances every week almost. The Midwest Temple had a dance and BTC had a dance. The Tri-C had a dance. The Methodist had a dance. Church of Christ had a dance. There were dances all the-- Junior JACL had a dance. So you know, there were dances all the time, so I' ; d come up on the North Side all the time to do all these things up here. My grades in my sophomore year really flattened out. Took me a while to get my average back up. Anna Takada: Because you were being so social? Ross Harano: Yeah, I was having a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more, just a little bit more details about these dances? Was the purpose solely to get young- Ross Harano: Well, because we' ; re so generationally distinct, all of these churches had teenagers, Sansei. And each church formed a youth group and each youth group hosted a dance. That' ; s just sort of the way it was, I guess. And so, as part of their youth program. I came up to the North Side, my first dance was at the Church of Christ Presbyterian which used to be on Sheffield. And it was the Dukes and Duchesses dance and Tonko Doi was the president of it at the time. And I said, " ; Wow, these North Side girls are really cute." ; (laughs) So, I stayed active in that and I was president of the Dukes and Duchesses later. I was the only duke and there were five duchesses, so it was a lot of fun. And we' ; d have dances there also. Anna Takada: And what about the setup? Did you have to organize getting snacks or music or decorations? Ross Harano: Yeah, we, we did all that. We had advisors. And in those days I used to smoke, I remember. And I remember being at the Church, Church of Christ and we had a dance and I' ; m in the corner trying to smoke a cigarette. And my cousin, my cousin Helen was at McCormick Seminary because this was a Presbyterian church. So she was an advisor. And so then I' ; m there and all of a sudden I see my cousin walking in, so I had to put out the cigarette and be a good kid. So, but it was fun. It was a fun group to be with, and, but every church had their own dances. Anna Takada: And I know at this time the social clubs were pretty popular. Can you tell me more about those, boys and girls clubs? Ross Harano: Well, they were, every church had a youth program where they could be part of a confirmation process. I mean, Kenwood Ellis, I went to confirmation classes for two years. He said, " ; I didn' ; t learn enough my first year." ; Reverand Nishimoto. But every church had a youth program of some sort to keep the kids active in the church. So they would have a youth group that would go to... I remember in our confirmation stuff, we went to different religions. We visited a Jewish synagogue, we went to the Bahai Temple, we went to St. Peter' ; s downtown to Catholic. All these things we did and I' ; m sure every church had their own program like that to keep the youth active in the church. Anna Takada: Well, and what I was referring to is the, the social clubs that kids kind of started organizing. The Ting-a-Lings or the- Ross Harano: Oh yeah. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about those kinds of clubs? Ross Harano: I wasn' ; t that active in them. There was the Bruins, there was the Vikings. There was all these different clubs. I was never active in any of those. Anna Takada: But were those popular around the time you were in high school? Ross Harano: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was, it was good. I mean, in those days, even the Scouts had a group at the Buddhist temple, BTC. I was an Explorer at the BTC. I only did it because I was on the swim team and I' ; d be a ringer for the swim team representing BTC Explorers. I don' ; t know why they wanted me. I was a lousy swimmer. Anna Takada: Were there any other extracurriculars that you were involved in, in high school? Ross Harano: In high school? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Ross Harano: No, towards the end, in high school, I was very active in church and active, beginning to get active in Junior JACL in those days. Yeah. Anna Takada: You mentioned Abe? Ross Harano: Abe Hagiwara? Anna Takada: Yes. And you said that he was kind of like a mentor to you? Ross Harano: Yes. Anna Takada: I' ; m wondering if you could just tell me a little bit more about some of those, the community leaders, I guess, because I think it would be fair to call him one. Ross Harano: Yeah. Abe in particular was a social worker at Olivet Community Center. And he, Olivet was another place where we had a lot of dances. Junior JACL had all our dances there. And that was a meeting place. We had the CNAA there. And Abe was a, very good around young people. Very, very good around young people. He says, " ; I don' ; t have any kids. That' ; s why I' ; m so good around young people." ; But he is the one who really mentored me when I was, got active in junior JACL and really helped me to do things and move ahead with things. He was a very interesting man. And actually my son, his name is Michael Abe Harano. I named his middle name is after Abe. And Abe was a very, helped me in terms of just focusing things and not to have so much fun. Anna Takada: So it sounds like he, he had, he played an important role or part in your life then. Ross Harano: He did. And there, and there was quite a few other Nisei who, who were community leaders, who we had a very interesting leadership in our community and they were very conservative, well-respected. We had a very well-respected leadership in our community and they deserved the recognition. They deserved the, the accolades because they really sacrificed a lot of their time and experience, and money for the community and service committee had some tremendous people, Kenji Nakano and others that really played an important role in steering our community in the right direction. Anna Takada: Is that something that you were kind of aware of as a teenager or young person kind of the... Ross Harano: Yeah I, I was very fortunate. I was, as a junior JACL-er I was very fortunate that I got to know all the old time leadership of JACL Doc Yatabe, Mike of course, Masato, all of the so-called old timers. Here in Chicago, Lincoln Shimizu was president here. I got to know them. I used to hang out, I used to drink when I was a kid so I used to hang out with all these guys. And so I really got to know them as individuals and respected the fact that they' ; re, that they were committed in their own way to do what they were doing. They weren' ; t out there for selfish reasons. Anna Takada: Where, so after graduating Hyde Park High, you said you went down, down state? Ross Harano: Somewhere along the way, my grammar school teacher Marge Lerner, eighth grade teacher, said I' ; d make a good engineer. And I believed her. I took all these hard courses you know at Hyde Park, physics, chemistry, mechanical drawing, everything. And then here was Sunnan Kubose, he and I were in the same division all those years, he took typing. Anyway, and so his grades, he was a little higher ranking than me when we graduated. But so, I was at Navy Pier, University of Illinois. I didn' ; t think I' ; d be going to college to tell you the truth. I thought I' ; d be an engineer. I thought I' ; d go to Cal Tech. They' ; d accept me of course. MIT didn' ; t accept me, which was great. My parents couldn' ; t afford it anyway. So, good friend of mine, Bernie Shapiro said, " ; Ross, I' ; m going down to Navy Pier." ; I said, " ; Why?" ; He said, " ; I' ; m going to register for college." ; " ; Oh really?" ; I didn' ; t know it was a college there. So, I went down there with him and turns out University of Illinois had a two year program there at Navy Pier. And tuition was-- 135 bucks a semester. I had a hundred bucks in my pocket. I was working. So then I put a $50 deposit down, came home and told my mother, " ; I' ; m going to college mom." ; And so I went to Navy Pier for three years. I changed my major from engineering to, to accounting, then to finance when I went downstate. I stayed at Navy Pier for three years and downstate for two years. And Navy Pier, it was just like being at Hyde Park. All the Sansei there hung out at the same place. We had these three or four tables. We all hung out together. And the guys were great in math and the girls had trouble with math. And in those days, all the sansei girls had to become teachers. There was no other, all of them were in education. So the guys would help them out with their math and the young ladies would help us guys out in terms of rhetoric, 101 and 102 in terms of the English. I have a friend. I just saw him the other day for the first time in years, who was top notch engineering. He couldn' ; t pass rhetoric 101 and probably was a senior still taking rhetoric 101. Finally he had to go someplace else to take it to get credit for it and then he finally graduated as an engineer and I think he worked for either Boeing or, or McDonald Douglas down in St. Louis. But there always was a nucleus Sansei group that we always hung out with. Our sophomore year we all, we learned how to play Pinochle. And at 11 of us, I think eight flunked out and and I came back on probation. I think David Hayano was the only one that came with good grades. And a lot of the guys got drafted right away. Those days if you weren' ; t in college, you were in Vietnam. And so there was a whole, you just had no control over your life. You had to stay in school. So, went to Navy pier for three years, then went downstate to Champaign, went downstate as a senior basically and stayed down there two years, changed my major down there to finance and graduated. Anna Takada: And then did you return to Chicago after college? Ross Harano: Yeah. I summer interned at the CNA at Continental National Assurance, CNA. That summer of ' ; 64, I was an intern there. So when I graduated in January of ' ; 65, I called them up, " ; Hey, I graduated." ; They said, " ; Oh you weren' ; t, we thought you were graduating in June." ; " ; No, I graduated." ; So they hired me right then and there. So I got a job fresh out of college in the actuarial department. Anna Takada: Do you-- Well, first I' ; ll ask, when you came back to Chicago, where were you living? Did you go back with your parents, or did you find-- Ross Harano: What' ; s that? Anna Takada: Oh, where did you live when you returned to Chicago? Ross Harano: Oh, at my folks' ; place. Anna Takada: Okay. And where were they living at that time? Ross Harano: They lived on Argyle just, just acr-- just between Broadway and Glenwood there. So they lived on Argyle. They had an apartment building. They had five flats, so I moved in. Actually I was living with them. Anna Takada: When, when did they move there? Ross Harano: ' ; 61 when they tore down the house. Anna Takada: Oh, okay. Ross Harano: Yeah. So I' ; ve only lived in a couple places in Chicago. Anna Takada: And, you said from, so it was from Argyle that you were commuting to...? Ross Harano: Navy Pier. Anna Takada: To Navy Pier. Okay. Ross Harano: Yeah I started, what happened is I started Navy Pier in January of ' ; 60, and then September of ' ; 61, we moved up to the north side. So I left the house on the south side, took the L to Navy Pier and took the L north to Argyle and moved in. Anna Takada: Do you know why, why your parents decided to stay in Chicago? Ross Harano: Yes. All of my aunties, their husbands were California based in many ways and they all moved to the Gardena area, and so they all moved back. My dad was more, was always more independent, and he used to say, " ; I' ; m not going back to California. Those bastards kicked us out. I ain' ; t going back there." ; That was his attitude. And plus he had a good job. Anna Takada: And where was he at that time, working? Ross Harano: We were, he had bought a vending machine business. We had a vending machine company, and we had all the Coke machines at the B& ; K Theaters, the State and Lake McVicker' ; s, all those theaters downtown, and, and several factories we had Coke machines so... So he, he didn' ; t want to move back to California anyway. Anna Takada: Did you have any feelings about it? Ross Harano: Nope. I remember visiting my rela-- my, my aunties and uncles in California. In 1960, we took the train and started in San Francisco, went down to Menlo Park where my aunt lives, ended up in L.A. area in Gardena. And all the-- And California' ; s nice, but I am an urban guy and I' ; ve always lived by the subway, still do. And so I, I couldn' ; t, I don' ; t like the suburban lifestyle. I don' ; t like to have a car. I enjoy being able to walk places and I enjoy the excitement of an urban living. Anna Takada: I meant to ask. So, it was your mom' ; s family that you all, you know, went through camp with and moved to Chicago. And w-where was your dad' ; s family? Ross Harano: My dad' ; s family was all over the place, but primarily they were in North Platte, Nebraska. My uncle Earl, when he graduated from college, was a photographer. And he even came to Chicago a couple of times taking pictures, and he set up an operation in North Platte. His wife, my auntie by marriage is a Motooka who, there are several families in North Platte, Nebraska before the war. The, most of them were farmers. Ben Kuroki, the bombadier, the bomber. North Platte, Nebraska was the icing house for the Union Pacific. So then, the trains would come up from California and then they would fill up the cars from the top with ice. And there were like 600 Issei at one point in N- the North Platte area, working for the Union Pacific. My uncl-- grandfather on my mother' ; s side actually ended up there for a while. And a lot of them, several of them became farmers in the area. So, my uncle had an opportunity and he bought into somehow with a phot-- a photo studio there. And so he stayed there and then my, his older brother ended up coming there and they had a, a flower shop and his younger brother came in. So most of my father' ; s family was in North Platte, Nebraska. Others were in Wooster, Ohio because one of my aunties married a professor there. He' ; s from California, but he got a job in Wooster. And then another aunt lived in Berkeley because her husband was a professor at Berkeley. Another one lived in Salt Lake City, they were never in camp. So the, the Harano clan is a little more spread out, but we' ; ve had a reunion every year, every two years since ' ; 73. And so, we just had one last year in July in Orlando. We had like a hundred and some odd folks there. So it' ; s fun to get together every two years and see all the kids grow up. I don' ; t recognize some of these kids, they grow up so fast. The hardest part of these reunions though, I know all my cousins, I know most of my cousins kids, but my cousins' ; kids' ; kids, and all my cousins intermarried, except for one. And so as a result of that, you go the, the reunion and you see these blue eyed blondes running around. My great granddaughter' ; s blue eyed blonde. So it' ; s, so you say this is a Japanese American reunion, but you' ; re saying, " ; Where are the Japanese at the reunion?" ; So it, but it' ; s a great time, we go over family history, we do quite a bit of oral projects like this. We have quite a few tapes too. Mhmm. Anna Takada: Oh great. I' ; m glad to hear that. Um... So, okay, I-- sorry. Ross Harano: No problem. I wander around, I digress a lot so... Anna Takada: There' ; s um... Well and, yeah-- I uh, I have a few, kind of notes that I' ; ve been taking throughout of things that I just wanted to be sure to ask about, so we might not be in order or make sense-- Ross Harano: Okay, sure. No problem. Anna Takada: - chronologically. But I did want to ask a little bit more about your uncles who served during, during the war. Can you, can you tell me more about, I guess briefly, just maybe a little bit more about their stories, but I' ; m, I' ; m also curious in hearing about how that was kind of communicated to you as a child or you know... Every family has their family stories that are kind of just there always? Ross Harano: Yeah. There' ; s a bunch of pictures of me on the West Side when we lived there, where all my uncles just got out of service. So for the first time we had all my uncles on my mother' ; s side, and my uncles by marriage all together, except for my uncle Chuck, who was still in the hospital in Europe. And so, I always have these, remember these photographs of my uncles in uniform. And once again, I didn' ; t think too much about it. Then on my mother' ; s side, my... I had three uncles in service in military intelligence. And one of them was by marriage. My mother' ; s oldest brother was in New Guinea, and my mother' ; s other brother was in Tokyo right after the war with MIS. So all these things, I, I sort of knew about the army ; didn' ; t think about anything. My uncle Ben, who was in military intelligence, all of his belongings and military stuff was shipped to us, when he was in-- because he was traveling. And then when he got to Tokyo, a lot of his, a lot of-- everything, before he went to Tokyo, was all sent to us, so we had boxes of all of his stuff, and he was saver. I have all of his notes from MIS, which I' ; m putting together, and it had an exhibit, I' ; m figuring out who I' ; m going to donate them to. They' ; re really good notes, they' ; re, they' ; re interesting. And, and all of his commendations, all of his reports, I have a whole stack of things that I' ; m putting together, and I' ; m working with the Pritzker Museum ; maybe to, to work-- they, they said they' ; re willing to start something with it. So I had all of these things dealing with my, the service of my uncles. And my uncle Roy, who was in the 442, didn' ; t pa-- passed away maybe eight, nine years ago, but I had a lot of discussions with him, because he was there rescuing the lost Texas group, and on the last, one of the last days, his brother, my uncle Johnny, was killed. So then, Roy was going to go up the hill, I guess, and they wouldn' ; t let him. So, he stayed behind and he did, eventually, he got up there, but they, they didn' ; t want him up front, you know " ; You just lost your brother." ; So Roy would tell us about this. Anna Takada: About how old were you, do you think, when you were hearing these stories for the first time? Ross Harano: Oh about the specifics of uncle, uncle Johnny was 10, 10 years ago, in that range, yeah. And we did, we started ta-, I started talking to Roy about it, about... maybe longer than that, at one of the reunions. Anna Takada: It kind of sounds to me like, you know you' ; ve, you' ; ve done a bit of work kind of around your family' ; s story and experiences, whether it' ; s talking to folks or recording or just researching, I guess, more generally. Why, why is that something that' ; s important to you? Ross Harano: I' ; m, I' ; m a collector. And I' ; m just going through all my paper, I just gave Ryan some more stuff, I save things. I' ; m also a trivia nut and I' ; m also a movie nut, so I just have a sense of history, I enjoy history, and how things fit together. And, so all these things are important, and plus, we' ; re passing these stories on to my kids, to my grandkids, to my cousins at the reunion. So I think that' ; s important, the history, because the trouble we have today, and we still do, we teach American history from war to war to war ; you know with French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, and we don' ; t teach it from the point of view of... group- immigrants come here, the Irish were the lowest of the low. There was a magazine called Puck, which showed on the cover Chinese, Irish ; the Chinese are good because they work here and go home, the Irish are bad because they stay here and have kids. A-and so we have to understand that ours is a country of immigrants. A group comes in and they work their way up, another group comes in to take those dirty jobs nobody else will, and that' ; s what' ; s going on today. And so, we have to begin to teach this whole immigration. That, you know way back, we used to teach the melting pot theory ; everybody comes in, they assimilate. Ford had a 4th of July thing at his plant, they' ; d have a big cauldron on the stage, people would walk in from one side with their national clothing on whether they' ; re Lithuanian, Polish, whatever it might be, come out the other side wearing the Ford uniform. And, the assimilation process, the melting pot theory was great until probably the late ' ; 70s, and then we had a thing called the rise of the unmeltable ethnics, because the trouble with the melting pot theory if you' ; re of a different color, if you speak with an accent, there' ; s something wrong with you, because you' ; re not melted in. You can change your last name, you can do all sorts of things, and people have done that, but if you' ; re of color, have that accent, that story' ; s not told. So that' ; s one of the reasons why people still think... Now, how many times do people ask you " ; Where are you from?" ; You know? And, sometimes I get pissed and I say, " ; Well I, Chicago." ; " ; What high school?" ; " ; Hyde Park." ; " ; Where were you born?" ; " ; California." ; " ; Where are your parents?" ; " ; California." ; " ; Where are your grandparents?" ; " ; Japan." ; " ; You' ; re Japanese." ; Did you ever ask a white guy that? Do I say, " ; Gee, are your parents from? Germany, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, are you Bohemian, are you Polish? What is it?" ; You know, we don' ; t ask those questions, but we' ; re always asked that question, " ; Where are you from?" ; People are curious because our story has never been told. A-and plus, Europe is Europe, it' ; s not Czechoslovakia, it' ; s not France, it' ; s not Romania. Europe is Europe, so you sort of accept that, but Asia is such- different. So then, we' ; re always asked that same question, you know and sometimes I get pissed, sometimes I get, I' ; ll just say well I' ; ll go through this whole routine, you know, and then I ask them where they' ; re from. Sometimes I figure, if they' ; re asking me out of ignorance I' ; ll, I' ; ll educate them, but I think most Asian kids go through this experience. Anna Takada: Did you have, experience that growing up in Chicago? Ross Harano: Sort of. Most people in those days, because there were few Japanese, thought we were Chinese. Most people thought I was, they didn' ; t know there were Japanese here, so they all assumed we were Chinese. Anna Takada: And, we have time for just a couple more questions. So you mentioned that for some time you didn' ; t speak with your parents about the war experience, or the incarceration. How about, how do you feel as far as raising your own children, is this history something that you shared with them? Or... Ross Harano: Oh, yeah, oh yeah. My, my kids are aware of it. You know, when the book " ; Nisei" ; first came out, by Hosokawa, I made sure that every kid had a copy of it. " ; The Bamboo People" ; , they all had copies, I made sure they all... I don' ; t know if they ever read ' ; em, but they have all this. So, yeah they' ; re well aware of the history ; they' ; re well aware because at the reunions we talked about it, and, so it' ; s part of their history. So, yeah, they' ; re, they' ; re quite aware of it. I think it' ; s important. Especially, how do you, how do you explain to kids... because my grandchildren don' ; t even look Japanese, you know? And so how do you... but they' ; re well aware of their Japanese heritage, all the grandchildren are. I think it' ; s important that they know, because it' ; s sort of, knowledge protects you in some ways. Because to all of a sudden to be walking down the street, all of a sudden they call you a dirty Jap, you know, you just have to be prepared and understand and be aware there' ; s a bunch of jerks out there. Racist jerks. Anna Takada: And, your family, are they, are they in Chicago? And your grandkids? Ross Harano: Yeah. My, my parents had a building on Argyle. And my, we lived there, my sister lived there, my cousin lived there, my grandparents live there, and I got wanderlust and bought a building across the alley on Winnemac. So then, when my daughter was married, and they lived above, they lived across the street at my parents place, and then they had kids and they moved above me on the third floor of our building. So then, I didn' ; t charge them rent for a long time and they bought a house, so they live out in Round Lake, about an hour from us. And then, my youngest son lives upstairs on the third floor and my middle son lives in Texas. I almost disowned him, because he' ; s a Republican, so... Anna Takada: And, just a couple more questions. Having grown up as a sansei in Chicago, and you know, really being here for that critical resettlement period, how would you compare the Japanese American community of the past... let' ; s say, ' ; 50s, ' ; 60s, and some of those early memories of yours, to what it is today? Ross Harano: Well, in those, when we first got here, there were certain enclaves of Japanese, just by the nature of discrimination. J-Town, in those days, was Clark and Division, and when they built Sandburg Village, all that was torn down. Then there was all these social groups for, for the Nisei, the churches, JACL, the service committee, so there was a nucleus. As the nisei got older and moved out to the suburbs, or whatever it might be, we' ; re really spread out. There really isn' ; t a, a J-Town here. And, as a result of that, we, the only time I see all my sansei friends is at a funeral, or some sort of, something to do with funerals all the time lately. That' ; s, that' ; s when I see all my friends actually, now, at funerals, but we' ; re all spread out. You know so, and because, you find that, growing up... I' ; ll give you an example. Back in 19-, 1970, ' ; 71, ' ; 72, in that range... Actually, sorry. Back in 1965, Abe Hagiwara said, " ; You know, we need to do something with the young adults that are older than junior JACL, so about 22 years old." ; So in ' ; 65, we started a thing called Young Japanese Americans, or YJAs. So then we held our first event, it was down in Oldtown, and it was, we went to see a, a blues player who we knew, and we had a little party up there. And what happened was that there was about four guys and about 11 girls that showed up, and I didn' ; t recognize half of these girls. And they were gorgeous. I knew ' ; em in grammar school, high school, college, wherever it might be, but they were just older women now, older. And so, out of that YJA group, and there was only four guys in the beginning, I said you' ; ve got to get more guys, get more guys, and out of that group there were 11 marriages. It was fascinating. I, I have an album of all the wedding invitations for all the YJAs that met as a result of this event. We had Dick Tatebe met a girl from Cleveland there, we had somebody from Canada meeting somebody here, all sorts of relationships. And 11 marriages out of that whole thing. So, but it' ; s changed, the fact that there is no hard social center now for the community. Service committee had these dinners, JACL had these dinners, but there is no social, main social gathering. You had the n- picnic and all that, but still, it' ; s a different, it' ; s more of a get together of old, old, old friends I hadn' ; t seen in a long time, it' ; s not an every day, like when you had the Bruins, and all these different clubs. It' ; s not the same way. Anna Takada: Why do you think that is? Is it just geographic? Ross Harano: Well, I can give you an example. There were a bunch of us that used to hang out together and we' ; d say, hey, let' ; s go out and do something. We' ; d all go out and whatever it might be, go bowling, go drinking, whatever it might be, and all of a sudden you have a kid, and they' ; re not as flexible, and then somebody else has a kid. So now you just can' ; t say " ; Hey, let' ; s go out to, there' ; s a, there' ; s a theater thing going on, let' ; s go down." ; You can' ; t do that any more, we have kids. So that' ; s what, that' ; s what happened, once you have the kids, then that, that nucleus group sort of breaks up. You still get together, but not on a regular basis. We were getting together, our group of friends were getting together almost every weekend, we were doing, doing something. But it changes. Once you have a kid, things change. And that' ; s happened in the community, so therefore the groups are much more... friendships are not on a daily basis, as before. Anna Takada: Well thank you so much, again, for taking the time to speak. Before we wrap up, are there any last things that you' ; d like to add? Ross Harano: Mainly about Chicago. I, I think Chicago is an unusual place in terms of, of sansei. The sansei on the east coast are much different than the sansei here ; the sansei here are much different than the sansei on the west coast. Sansei on the east coast are totally, totally assimilated all the way through, just in everything they do. The west coast, you know, you don' ; t have to be that assimilated ; here, there' ; s sort of a mixture of assimilation and it' ; s a whole, it' ; s different than the sansei on either coast. I did notice that, but also, the fact that it' ; s such a smaller group that we all seem to know each other somewhere along the way. Especially, when you, you know I was saying I' ; ve been going to a lot of funerals lately, and I get to see folks, I saw someone I haven' ; t seen since high school almost, so. But we still are a community that sort of, does band together when necessary, which we do. Anna Takada: Do you have any hopes for the future of the Japanese American community in Chicago? Ross Harano: I don' ; t know, I, I haven' ; t thought about it. I think the service committee and the other groups, we just need to support them. I think, as, as we go through this whole assimilation process, we have fourth, and fifth, and sixth generation kids who are half, half, half, half, half, half, half... you know what' ; s the future? And this is a question we asked when I was a sansei. You know, well, am I Japanese or am I American? A-and, and then, the, the bottom line of all that whole discussion, we' ; re a visible minority, so even though we' ; re American, but we are Japanese, and people know that. Now, with this whole assimilation, intermarriages, and the kids, how will that, how, how do they fit into all of this? I remember when they did the, the history project for JACL and the Nisei book, there' ; s a picture of this clan in New York City who came to the U.S. early, in the 1860s, I can' ; t remember their names, but they didn' ; t even look Japanese at all, because they were in New York, and they intermarried right off the bat most likely, so, but the family still had the Japanese last name. So it, it' ; s fascinating about, about the next generations and how they fit in, how they feel about it, because don' ; t forget, as a visible minority, our relationship with the United States is dependent upon the United States relationship with Asia. In World War II I was a Jap, in the Korean War I was a chink, in the Vietnam war I was a gook. So, anything goes wrong with China, or whatever, it will affect us as a visible minority. That' ; s one thing that we have to recognize, that, that the tide can change overnight in terms of who we are, and what took place in World War II could happen again, and we just have to make sure it doesn' ; t. Anna Takada: One last question. Ross Harano: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: How, how can we do that? How can we make sure that nothing like the incarceration or what happened in World War II? Ross Harano: Well, part of the whole, part of the whole redress and reparations made that point. When we first started out you know, we were talking about $40,000 per person dead or alive, and it got down to $20,000 if you were alive on a certain date in ' ; 88. But uh-, or ' ; 80... ' ; 88. So what happened is that certain legislation is taking place, which basically prohibits this, and the Supreme Court rulings were overturned, but still we have to make sure that the issues deal with immigration, and we have to be involved in those issues, and we have to make sure that the whole backlash that' ; s going on against people of color, we have to be on the forefront of telling our story of what happened to us, as part of the whole story of how it can happen again unless Americans are vigilant. Anna Takada: Thank you so much, again. Ross Harano: Sure. Anna Takada: I promise that was the last one. Ross Harano: Okay, no problem. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaranoRoss20180322.xml HaranoRoss20180322.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
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Harano, Ross (3/22/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Ross Harano, a sansei, was born in 1942 at the Fresno Assembly Center in California before being moved with his mother's family to the Jerome incarceration site in Arkansas. His father's family was incarcerated at Poston. Ross shares what he knows of his family's roots in Berkeley, CA and Hanford, CA, the military service of many of his uncles in both the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and the Military Intelligence Service (MIS), and his family's resettlement experience in Illinois. Of particular note are his memories of growing up on the South Side during a time of rapid change in racial demographics and his involvement in the Junior JACL and other civic and community organizations throughout his adult life. Ross emphasizes the importance of individuals knowing and understanding the history of Japanese Americans during World War II, particularly so that we are able to be proactive in our efforts to ensure that nothing similar ever happens again.
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2018-03-22
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video
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Series: Untold Stories
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hasegawa, Aylen
Interview Keyword
Puyallup
Minidoka
Rockford
Chicago
South Side
Restaurants
Chicago Resettlers Committee
Sansei
Redress Movement
Heiwa Terrace
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/6/2017 Hasegawa, Aylen (10/6/2017) 0:37:13 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Puyallup Minidoka Rockford Chicago South Side Restaurants Chicago Resettlers Committee Sansei Redress Movement Heiwa Terrace Hasegawa, Aylen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/302187491 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/302187491?h=73ddc976de" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Aylen Hasegawa was born on February 19th, 1942 ; the same day that President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 allowing for the incarceration of Japanese Americans. He recalls what he's been told of his mother raising four infants in the Minidoka camp, the family's experiences in Rockford, and his own memories of growing up on Chicago's South Side. He reflects on the values of hard work and responsibility imparted by his parents, and shares his thoughts about the importance of contemporary efforts to preserve and teach about incarceration history. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 Great. This is an interview with, uh, Aylen Hasegawa: 00:06 Aylen Hasegawa. AT: 00:06 Aylen Hasegawa, uh, as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago resettlement experience oral history project, the oral history project is being conduc-, conducted in line with the current exhibition: " ; Then They Came For Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII and the Demise of Civil Liberties." ; Today is October 6th, at about 5:30 PM and we' ; re recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Aylen Hasegawa is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. So now that that' ; s out of the way, um, you just start by stating your name, your full name. AH: 00:45 Okay. Uh, Aylen Hasegawa. AT: 00:48 And can you tell me a little bit about, uh, where you were born? AH: 00:53 Yeah. Well, in my case, it' ; s a little ironic that I happened to be born on the very day that President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, February 19th, 1942, and at the time, uh, our family, the Hasegawa family, had a farm, uh, near Puyallup, Washington. So we were relatively close to what eventually became or declared as the assembly center, uh, for persons from primarily Washington, Oregon, uh, and all of the exclusion zone in that, in that particular region. So, uh, uh, it was ironic in the sense that at the time the Pacific coast was already quarantined relative to, uh, restricting travel for Japanese and Japanese-Americans as well. They make no distinction whether you' ; re an American citizen or otherwise. And it happened that, uh, as I was arriving at a very inconvenient time, uh, because the, uh, Pearl Harbor had occurred, the, uh, the, uh, uh, doctor that operated a clinic, a Dr. Charles, uh, Aylen In, uh, in the, uh, city of Puyallup, Washington, uh, uh, decided to defy I guess the, uh, it' ; s a very strict curfew that applied to Japanese and Japanese-Americans and insisted that my mother come and deliver me, uh, in his clinic. So this was kind of in direct opposition of the existing curfew laws. And, uh, Dr. Charles Aylen was, uh, I think a dedicated country guy who didn' ; t pay that much attention to the fact that he may have been violating or putting himself into actually some kind of, uh, jeopardy, and certainly a violation of the curfew laws. So I came along, so that was my only claim to fame. After which, and two months later, we, uh, we were all, um, moved to the Puyallup fairgrounds. Ironically, this, the Puyallup fairgrounds was put together rather in a roughshod method, so according to my parents, especially my mother, we were housed in what was a horse stall, you know, as such. And, uh, it was, I guess pretty traumatic for them because this, especially for my mother who at that time now had three, uh, infant boys, uh, all in diapers. So the story is, is that because of that fact and the also the fact that you could only, uh, what, uh, take basically what, uh, you could carry, she stuffed all the suitcases with diapers, so they didn' ; t have much of anything else. So I' ; m going to the assembly center, uh, and then several months later, then we were moved, uh, permanently to the Minidoka Concentration Camp. So, uh, so that, that in and of itself was somewhat of a, you know, inauspicious start for, for our lives. So... AT: 04:19 And with your brothers would it, what' ; s the age difference or birth order of your brothers? AH: 04:30 Okay. Richard was born in 1941, excuse me, 1940, and Gary was ' ; 41. I was ' ; 42. So we were just, uh, my mother just, I guess she didn' ; t have much rest or whatever. Okay. So we were all right there, close together, essentially eleven months apart and uh, we' ; re all, uh, you know, so we' ; re all infants. And then in19 and about 20 months later after I was born then, uh, our youngest brother, uh, Robert was born in Minidoka, uh, in 1943. But um, so we' ; re all, uh, I think quite a handful I would say. AT: 05:14 And um, how long was your family in camp, in Minidoka? AH: 05:20 In camp itself? Uh, let' ; s see. Minidoka opened and I' ; m think-, we-, I believe that we were moved nearly immediately. Uh, Minidoka was opened in early August. Uh, and we were there until, I would say around September or so of forty-, you know, I want to say forty-, uh, ' ; 44. So we were there probably around two and a half years as a, as a family unit, although my father, uh, applied for and gained, uh, early release, uh, to, get resettled in, uh, the Midwest, initially in Rockford, Illinois. And then later on with the family to Chicago, Illinois. And that was about, so we were, we were as a family probably in the September of ' ; 44 for the family and, and now the four boys to Rockford initially. By that time, my father, and I don' ; t know how he did this, but as I was told, he worked three jobs to earn enough money, uh, to, to buy, uh, to buy a house in Rockford. Now unfortunately, because we were moving during, during the time of war, right so this was late, uh, by this time, late ' ; 44, uh, and with the war ongoing, the people in the house who were renting a house at the time that my father had bought it in a time that we were migrating out of uh West Coast to Midwest, uh, refused to move. And, uh, their terminology was pretty derogatory. It was, we' ; re not gonna move for some dirty Japs and they just, so they were basically squatters. Now fortunately at the time, uh, my mother with the four boys were on the sidewalk, pretty distraught, I guess, and, um, a neighbor just down the street happened to notice this commotion, kind of interesting. Her name was Myrtle Cavanaugh. And she saw this situation and once she found out what was going on that, uh, it was our house, but nobody, that people weren' ; t going to move and so on and so forth, she actually, uh, summoned her husband to help intercede in this situation. Now, Ed Cavanaugh happened also to be a captain of the Rockford Police Department, so within a month or so, uh, of being delayed, we finally got apparently the squatters out of there and we were able to occupy our first owned house, uh, in, uh, in Rockford. Now I say first owned house because, as we are all aware of now, okay, the, the farm that we came out of, which was Puyallup, in Puyallup, uh, and with, uh, the state of Washington land laws and the fact that my, uh, issei grandfather, uh, grandparents couldn' ; t own land, okay, because they were denied the right to get citizenship, that was a leased property. Okay. Now, they weren' ; t smart enough, I guess, to put it into my father' ; s name, so consequently that was leased property and so everything basically was lost there and that' ; s why the move to the Midwest was uh very important, okay. One, my father couldn' ; t have gone back to the west coast anyway to reestablish things. Everything that they already had was lost. Uh, they only received pennies on the dollar, I guess from their farm equipment and so on. So, uh, so the Midwest was where we ended up two years later or so. I' ; m not sure what the timing was. We then migrated to Chicago on the South Side. AT: 09:21 I' ; m so sorry. Do you mind taking off your hat? I' ; m just afraid we were going to lose - AH: 09:27 Oh, okay. AT: 09:28 - your eyes in the, in the shot. Um, uh, thank you for, for sharing all of that. Um, so, um, your first memories, were they of Rockford or Chicago? AH: 09:49 Well, definitely it would be Rockford. By that time I would, I was probably at least two and a half or so. So I have some memories. Uh...unfortunately, there weren' ; t all that great memories because of, I was small, but Gary was a little bit, you know, like 11 months older and he managed, uh, and we managed to get into a rock fight, okay, with, and I hate to admit this with girls, but they were older girls. Okay. And that' ; s where he got a scar on his forehead because one landed right, you know, took him right out, and stuff like that. So that' ; s about, uh, and you know, there were adventures with, uh, you know, both of my brothers, I remember, um, we really didn' ; t have any money and by that time my father had moved on to Chicago to get established there. So my mother was left with us. And I do remember one thing is that she would take us to the, kind of the local windmill, I guess, and she would get a gunny sack, you know for a penny or two of, uh, wood ends. And we' ; d bring them home and those were our toys. So that' ; s, that' ; s a, which was fine, you know, and stuff like that. But that' ; s how I remember it. And now you put it into context of what kids have today and it' ; s, uh, kind of remarkable, like I still think I liked woodblocks better. AT: 11:12 And so, of the, the stories, um, kind of like the family stories that you have of camp, was this all learned from your parents? Did they share about this experience with you? AH: 11:29 This is the interesting part is that we as a family didn' ; t have conversations about that experience until actually the redress hearings in the ' ; 80s, uh, in which my mother was an active participant. In fact, she gave testimony and so on, at that time, the full story and the impact to the family, uh, really, uh, was not, uh, was not all that well known. Not in any detail. Uh, and during the formative years right between the time that we moved to Chicago and started the school, um, uh, our family did not, and especially my parents, did not complain or resent or provide resentment, uh, with regard to their experience. But it was mostly, and I would say entirely a matter of us growing up to take, always take responsibility ; alright, you know, to, to do the right thing ; to work very, very hard. And, uh, there was no, there was no complaining, there was no whining that it was no, no, uh, excuse-making, okay, for I guess anything we did. So, you know, consequently the emphasis was on, um, working hard, getting an education, and for boys don' ; t get caught. So, uh, I don' ; t know. So we ended up with, you know, a younger brother, Bob became, uh, you know, an attorney. And then Gary has had, I guess a, a real knack for design and product development and stuff like that. So he has, he still has like 33 patents in his name. Um, and he' ; s the guy that gave you tab pulls for soda cans that you didn' ; t litter the, the ground with. Okay. Cause he, he came up with the one with the, that was detach-, uh, non-attachable. And then I got involved with, uh, information technology, and uh, and cybersecurity and stuff like that before I retired. So we, you know, we all worked hard and gone to completely different areas. Richard, our oldest, unfortunately died very young, so but, uh, there was no, there was no true, I, I don' ; t know how to say it, but it' ; s like using that, using our experience as a reason why we couldn' ; t accomplish something, I guess, is a way, that was not allowed. Period. And in fact, my mother was very, very outgoing. She was kinda like the spark of the family cause she, um, she was a registered nurse, uh, during a wartime, during the wartime at at the camp experiences, she was, she worked very, very hard in the, uh, in the hospital clinic at Minidoka, okay. And through an extended family because there, my father had two sisters and also her, uh, his mother was also in camp at the time too, they helped take care of us while my mother also, uh, you know, volunteered and did work in the, uh, in the camp hospital as well. So when we were in Chicago, then she became, um, she was, uh, functioned as a nurse here as well. Uh, primarily into our formative years, at the University of Chicago with a, with a, little babies, stuff like that ; neonatology and stuff like that. So on and so forth. But she constantly, the thing about her was that she, because the University of Chicago they had a bunch of, uh, displaced students running around, and during the holidays, uh, it was, uh, you know, they had no place to go very often. She would find them and drag ' ; em all home. So she would have Thanksgiving and Christmas, uh, what, with these students. So we, we got to know these guys as well and so on. So that was kind of a nice experience. AT: 15:54 And your father, did he take up any work while in camp? AH: 15:59 He was, uh, yeah, he, well he worked in the kitchen, I think. And uh, uh, but he had left because he had early release and that was in late ' ; 43, so he was one of the very early ones, uh, to get re-, early release so he can get, we can get reestablished in, uh, in the Midwest, go through a resettlers program. So, uh, that was his primary interest. And then, uh, like I said, once in Rockford, he, I, I don' ; t know how the fella did it, okay. Cause, uh, if I had lost all my livelihood, all my, uh, um, family relationships and so on and so forth, and taken away all their property, uh, I' ; m not sure what I would' ; ve done, but he went to Rockford and worked three jobs and, and within a year and a half, had enough money to buy a house. I mean, that' ; s crazy. And since we all lived on leased land, that was the first owned property that we actually had. So we' ; re, you know, despite the, you know, moving in, uh, issues, uh, that was, that was a good thing. AT: 17:02 And when he came to, or when your family came to Chicago, um, where did you all settle and, and what was your father doing at that time? AH: 17:13 He was, um, uh, at the time, then, uh, we had some family already preceding us. Okay. His older sister and her husband, they had established a kind of restaurant, okay, on the South Side. So he went and worked with them, uh, for actually, for quite a while. So that, so that, was what he was doing. So he wasn' ; t uh, he wasn' ; t professionally trained. Okay. But, so, but that' ; s what he did, and worked very, very hard at it. AT: 17:44 Do you know anything about the restaurant? What it was called or what kind of food they had? AH: 17:50 This was called the Atlantic Inn. It was on Pershing Road in Chicago. This was the South Side. They' ; re not, I don' ; t know. I remember this was not the, I guess you would call it, the very best, uh, exclusive area of South Side of Chicago. So I remember signs that my uncle and my father had posted in the restaurant that said, nope. In the booths it said, no dope pedaling allowed. So this was not your ideal place, okay. But it was, it was a livelihood. Uh, we started, actually, we started working, uh, there, as, even as kids. Um, uh, my first experience was, actually, I was around seven years old and I was assigned pots and pans. Uh, so I would get up in the morning and then, uh, go with my father, and, uh, he, he, uh, I guess he sold it as training. So this is about time you guys started to do something for yourselves. I was seven years old, so it was training, therefore you got no salary, and uh, and actually I never got out of pots and pans. I was stuck. AT: 19:11 What did that mean exactly? Washing? AH: 19:11 Uh, yes. Yeah. I would stand up, I would have a stool because I wasn' ; t tall enough to reach these, uh, these are these deep sinks, you know, commercial type sinks as such, so I would, they would get me a stool. I would stand up on there. And then, they, they went through the enormous, this was not modern, you know, cookery, the, you know, they had enormous amounts of pots. I thought, huge amounts of pots and pans. Okay. So it was an endless and thankless job, okay. But, uh, that' ; s what I was supposed to do. So... AT: 19:42 And what, um, I' ; m sorry, did you say that this was owned by your family? AH: 19:42 Yes, it was owned by my uncle, okay, who was married, he was my uncle-in-law married to my father' ; s oldest sister. And they had come in and established themselves a little bit earlier and I don' ; t know, uh why and where for us, okay. But they also, uh, cause we initially lived in one of their apartments in one of the, in the building, that he actually owned or operated or whatever. And he also had, uh, the Atlantic Inn that I just mentioned. In addition to that, there was another restaurant in the Hyde Park area on the, called the Good Eats Cafe. Now that one was a little bit better, uh, position. And in fact, in subsequent years it was, it was well...good enough, uh, considered good enough so that he even had the, the Los, at the time, the Los Angeles Rams come and eat there and so on and so forth. So that was a better, I think a better situation. Atlantic Inn was a little, a little iffy, actually it was across the street, where the, where the, uh, where the, uh, El Rukns established their headquarters in that area. So, so it was, uh, it was interesting, but that' ; s, that' ; s how we grew up. We grew up on uh, went to school on the South Side of Chicago, primarily Oakenwald Grammar School and Shakespeare Grammar School, just around 40-, I don' ; t know, 44th or 46 and Greenwood, somewhere in there. Uh, so, uh, we' ; re South Side kids. AT: 21:16 And where did you go to high school? AH: 21:18 Went to high school in, uh, uh, South Shore High School. Uh, interesting enough, South Shore was at the time that we, uh, hit high school was actually one of the, one of the highest rated schools academically. They sucked in sports, but they were very good academically. Bear in mind that at the time, South Shore, uh, in the South Side was, um, uh, although we were in the throes of a huge migration going on in the South Side of Chicago, uh, with many of the, um, uh, um, black folks coming in because there was a lot of, uh, lots of industry and lots of factory jobs going on and so on and so forth. But South Shore was primarily actually, uh, Jewish. So, uh, so that was a, I think a good school to go to and we had deliberately tried to move further in there so we could, I believe, take advantage of the schools. I know I' ; m going to give our family credit for thinking like that, although, I don' ; t know, okay. Uh, but we were also at a boundary point where we were what we call redline. In other words, people, if you were not white, you couldn' ; t move beyond a certain point. So we were right on, you know, on the boundary point there in that, but we still qualified into, to get into the South Shore High School, uh, region. AT: 22:48 Do you remember the address of that home you had? AH: 22:51 Yeah, it was, uh, 1436, uh, east 71st Place. Just a little bit west of, uh, Stony Island. And uh, South Shore, the South Shore district was a little bit, probably a little, uh, definitely, uh, further east and south. Alright. So we were kind of right on the borderline. AT: 23:17 And, um, at the time when you' ; re growing up on the South Side, um, were there other Japanese-American families in your neighborhood or that you grew up with? AH: 23:29 The Nakayamas. I remember Joanne and I thought she was really cute. And I remember her, we were actually in the same class. I remember, I dunno, it was a really strange, I remember this is, that she was the smart one. So she had to help the, you know just uh, there' ; s a, like a, some kind of, this is in, you know, maybe fourth grade or whatever it is. In any case, she was chosen, uh, to help monitor a reading session that the rest of us had to go through. So we had to, you know, if we didn' ; t know what the word was, okay, we would raise our hand and she would come over and educate you, I guess. Okay. So, uh, she was the teacher' ; s pet. What can I say? AT: 24:19 So was it just that, that one family, uh Japanese-American family? AH: 24:24 No, no, there are many others. There is others as well. As a matter of fact, and we were talking about this at dinner, there was a fellow that was featured and I had, I confess, I have not seen the, the Ken Burns Vietnam War, but there was a Japanese-American, uh, that was featured in one of uh, I guess on one of the sessions. I happened to see it on Facebook. And this session was featuring a fellow by name of Vincent Okamoto, and he was being portrayed as a, well, a Vietnam War hero and so on. And, uh, they went through his exploits and so on and so forth, and, um, and I just happened to notice on Facebook and that struck me as being very familiar. And as it turns out, we knew Vincent, you know, and that he and his father used to visit us, uh, in my, my, uh, uncle' ; s old, uh, apartment building. So we knew, knew of Vincent. Vincent Okamoto, but I didn' ; t realize that. And I remember that, uh, they were, they were one of the people resettled in Chicago under her family. And I, I, I don' ; t know why I remember this because I was fairly young, but they were going to be moving back to California as soon as possible. See, so many of the Japanese-Americans were pulled into Chicago and there was, we had quite a few in the, uh, on the South Side of Chicago, um, through the, I think the efforts of the Resettlers Committee. Right. And, um, I think they were one of them, but a lot of, a lot of them wanted to get back to the west coast. We didn' ; t, but they did. And they went to, back I guess to, California and so on. So we were talking about this at dinner, like two weeks ago. I said, ' ; you know, there was a name, uh, that I saw on Facebook,' ; cause everybody was asking ' ; did you see the Vietnam War thing?' ; And I said, ' ; no, I didn' ; t. Uh, but I do remember this one, uh, one, uh, element of it.' ; And then, uh, so, Gary cause he loves to Google things, I said, ' ; Gary, Google that name Vincent Okamoto, it sounds very familiar.' ; And as it turns out, yeah, that' ; s Vincent. So that was interesting. He was also born in camp, so he was actually up here with and about the same age as my, our, our younger brother Robert. Okay. So... AT: 26:47 And when you were growing up, were you, um, involved in any activities or extracurricular activities? Sports, clubs, boy scouts? AH: 27:00 I wasted my youth. Okay. I, uh, I have to admit, I, uh, managed to get involved with, uh, music, and uh, so I, uh, studied clarinet and then later on, uh, don' ; t ask me how, I managed to fall into a band. So we played all kinds of, throughout all my, starting when I was 15 years old, through, uh, I completely neglected everything and we just played, uh, dates and weddings and so on and so forth. So I, by that time I had, I had a clarinet, and then, um, a tenor sax, alto sax and so on. I was the reed guy and so on. But unbeknownst to me, it was kind of interesting, my high school teacher thought enough of me to set me up with, uh, music lessons and he had been sending me to Chicago Conservatory, uh, for clarinet. And I, I never really appreciated what the guy did for me. Okay. He just said go there. I did. You know, we had to, I had, so I had good training, so it was kind of nice, but I kind of wasted. I just, we just played dates all over the place. It was really a lot of fun, so I got nothing done. AT: 28:11 Do you remember that teacher' ; s name? AH: 28:14 I do, you know, I do not. Okay. He was, um, I do remember this though. He, he was married to a Japanese lady. But I don' ; t remember his name. No. And no one has asked me for 50 years. AT: 28:32 And, um, your family, did you all stay on the South Side or did you ever move at any point? AH: 28:40 I would say that, uh, yeah, we stayed there for, actually, for quite a while, um, through high school. Okay. After that, then we started to move. My father started, uh, was, got sick. Uh, I was, um, I had some misadventures in college, initial college years, you know, uh, joined the army, you know, for a couple of years, and, uh, I came back. By that time we started to, you know, move out and so on. So, um, I would say through the college years or you know, like maybe 19 or 20 years. And then, uh, at that point we, uh, uh, moved away, but still in Chicago. AT: 29:31 Around the ' ; 60s? Would you say, is that about right? AH: 29:34 I would say, yeah. I would say more in the mid, mid-sixties. AT: 29:38 Yeah. And to where did your family move? What parts of Chicago? AH: 29:44 Uh, well my mother moved to the, uh, near the, the Chicago Buddhist church. Or. She wasn' ; t Buddhist, but that was the area that some of the South Side Japanese, uh, moved to, to the North Side. And, uh, so she, I think she had a small apartment, so on and so forth. But my father, bear in mind, uh, got very sick. He had diabetes and it really, you know, uh, that really, uh, killed him. Alright. So, she was by herself in an apartment. And then from there, she came, became involved with the development of, um, something called the Heiwa Terrace. The Heiwa Terrace is, um, what, Lawrence, and um Broadway or somewhere in that area. Yeah right. And so on. So she was one of the kind of organizing forces behind that. Uh, uh, the Nakawatase boys who were architects, and whom we also, you know, were childhood friends with, uh, you know, helped build and design that thing. And then, uh, and so later, uh, uh, we encouraged her, well, instead of being in this apartment, why don' ; t you go, you know, go to Heiwa Terrace? And, uh, and, and she did, which was nice, okay. And then that' ; s, so that' ; s where she settled. Um, and uh, let' ; s see. Well, and then uh, I was thinking around Chicago someplace, on the North Side by this time. Uh, and, uh, you know, went to school and, uh, met Louise during one of our, we were tutoring. This is interesting. So, some-, somebody had hooked me up with, well, ' ; can you go tutor, uh, needy students on the North Side?' ; I said, ' ; uh, well, okay.' ; Um, so in going there, I discovered that, uh, these were all primarily Asian kids and they really didn' ; t need any tutoring. Okay. What it was is that I think their parents were interested in getting them to move and accelerate as well as possible, academically. So ran into a bunch of, you know, really gifted, gifted kids and it was a lot of fun. But that' ; s also where I met Louise and we got married and so on. We didn' ; t have any kids of our own, but uh, you know, we' ; re still together somehow or another. AT: 32:11 And you two are settled in Sauganash now? AH: 32:14 Yeah. Initially, we were in, uh, we were up in Highland Park. Uh, and her father at the time, uh, turned out was the General Superintendent, uh, up in Highland Park in district 113. And uh, it was just all coincidence, okay. But, uh, and then, um, and then, uh, we moved to, uh, back to Chicago from Highland Park after about five years or so. Cause we weren' ; t seeing people ; we felt isolated out there. So we' ; ll be closer to our friends, and you know, so we went back to Chicago and found out that wasn' ; t the reason they weren' ; t visiting us. AT: 32:56 Um, well, we' ; re, we' ; re actually reaching our half an hour mark. AH: 33:01 Okay, good. AT: 33:01 But before we wrap up, um, is there anything that you would want to add or that we might' ; ve missed? AH: 33:08 I, I, well I would just simply say that uh, until this type of, uh, documentation, uh, this project and some of the things I' ; ve seen, I haven' ; t seen all of the exhibit here, uh, and also the, the movements through, um, uh, the, uh, the Densho project and so on, where I' ; m starting to get acquainted with some real, real experiences from people that have a true memory of the wartime, uh, wartime era, since I was really an infant that, uh, I am becoming much more appreciative of what the hell they really went through. What they had lost and the challenges they had to overcome. And doing this with a, I would say, well, this is what has taught me something. It was the grace and the, and the humility and just the sincer- sincerity and the integrity that they, they conducted their lives throughout without bitterness. Just trying to do as much as they could ; trying to help their, uh, their kids in the family and to stay on the right track. Uh, just, um, you see all the dissension that' ; s going on today, in today' ; s world, and everybody' ; s got a gripe, I know that, okay. And everybody has suffered in some way. They have been slighted and they' ; ve been insulted and they' ; ve been denied. But, um, uh, I am more appreciative of the way our parents, uh, handled what had happened to them, especially with regard to how they translated that or transmitted that, uh, throughout their lives and also affected us. I' ; m much more appreciative. Much more appreciative. And this type of effort is just, I think, marvelous. Absolutely marvelous. It' ; s, it' ; s taught me, one of the people, a lot. So, um, I' ; m just touched by it. AT: 35:20 Wh-, what are some of your hopes for, for those kinds of efforts? Why is it important to document and to, to share the story with others? AH: 35:31 Well, given the climate that we are in now, without getting overtly political, alright, this is the type of effort that is needed even more so. The, the, the dissension that we are seeing a, lot of it through misinformed or ill-informed people, okay, are forming the basis for more, uh, tension and prejudice, and unfortunately, violence. Alright. And that' ; s where I think that this type of of project, if given the right venue, the right exposure, okay, certainly can help for those that want to, I guess, open their minds and to learn a little bit more of our, of our history. So that, that' ; s a, uh, that' ; s a very, very worthwhile goal. And even if you affect, you know, some people, uh, I think that' ; s worth it. So, uh, I' ; m an, I' ; m deeply appreciative of finding a venue like this and to put the effort that' ; s been put into this. I just, I' ; m, I' ; m blown away. I really am. And I' ; m very impressed. And the level and the, I think the, uh, the, the professionalism that you guys have put in, this is amazing to me. So I, I, I' ; m a fan and I just dropped in, so thank you. AT: 37:04 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. AH: 37:07 Okeydoke. AT: 37:07 We really appreciate it. AH: 37:10 Yes. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HasegawaAylen20171006.xml HasegawaAylen20171006.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Hasegawa, Aylen (10/6/2017)
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Aylen Hasegawa was born on February 19th, 1942; the same day that President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 allowing for the incarceration of Japanese Americans. He recalls what he's been told of his mother raising four infants in the Minidoka camp, the family's experiences in Rockford, and his own memories of growing up on Chicago's South Side. He reflects on the values of hard work and responsibility imparted by his parents, and shares his thoughts about the importance of contemporary efforts to preserve and teach about incarceration history.
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2017-10-06
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Takada, Anna
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Hasegawa, Gary
Interview Keyword
Puyallup
Farmer
Minidoka
Nisei
Sansei
Rockford
Chicago
Kenwood
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5.4 7/12/2017 Hasegawa, Gary (7/12/2017) 0:24:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Puyallup Farmer Minidoka Nisei Sansei Rockford Chicago Kenwood Hasegawa, Gary Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/301922372 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/301922372?h=b756f531e3" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Gary Hasegawa is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American, born on a farm in Puyallup, Washington. He was one year old when his family was incarcerated first at the Puyallup fairgrounds and then at Minidoka. He describes experiencing prejudice as a young boy while growing up in Rockford and in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood, and share his thoughts about the long-term impact of incarceration on his father. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 All right. So if we, you could just start by stating your name. Gary Hasegawa: 00:05 Uh, my name is Gary Kenji Hasegawa. AT: 00:09 Okay. And then GH: 00:09 I' ; m 76 years old and I' ; ve been in Chicago pretty much. Uh, after the war, pretty much sure. All my life. AT: 00:22 Can you tell me a little bit about where you were born? And, GH: 00:26 Well, I was born in Puyallup, Washington in 1941. Uh, were on a farm. My grandparents actually had leased a, the farm and my dad had planned to purchase the farm. And then of course the war broke out and we left. That was pretty much it. AT: 00:54 And so you were, you were very young at the time that the war broke out. GH: 00:59 Yes. I was, um, Well, 11, 11 months. Wait, let me think. 2040, it was 42. I was born in 41, so around, yeah, about a year. Yeah. A year old AT: 01:15 And do you know, did you all start at a detention center and then, or, anything but .. GH: 01:20 Um, yes. Uh, the Puyallup fair grounds, I think it was a temporary holding points. And then we went to Minidoka, Idaho for the duration. AT: 01:32 And what did your parents do after, or what was the process of leaving camp? GH: 01:38 Of leaving camp? Well, my dad was sponsored out of Camp. Apparently that' ; s what was necessary. Uh, so he got an apprenticeship in Rockford as a baker' ; s apprentice. Uh, my parents apparently saved enough money to buy a home, so they did. Uh, my Dad arranged to buy a home in Rockford. Uh, so we were live in Rockford for about three and a half, four years. Uh, then we sold the home. My parents sold the home and we moved to, uh, Chicago. Ummm. My uncle actually owned some businesses in Chicago and my dad, uh, went to work for him and my mom, uh, was a nurse, so she went to work at the University of Chicago, billings as a nurse. Uh,we also, my parents also bought a home, uh, in the Kenwood neighborhood, uh, on Ellis Avenue 44th and Ellis. And uh, I spent actually up to about fifth grade in that location. Uh, AT: 02:57 And what kind of businesses did your uncle own? GH: 03:01 He had apartment buildings and three restaurants. Uh, so my dad went to work as a cook in the restaurant, uh. AT: 03:13 Were those also, so those were on the south side? GH: 03:16 They were all on the south side. Yeah. Everything was on on the south side. Uh, and I think that was one of the reasons we, we kind of landed up there. I don' ; t know if my parents really have a choice, but that' ; s kind of where we decided to settle. AT: 03:34 And, so since you were, you said you had three siblings? GH: 03:39 Uh, three brothers, yeah, three brothers. Right. We were very close in age. Actually. The three of us are 11 months apart. 11 months. 11 months. AT: 03:50 Wow, family lucky number. GH: 03:51 We were, yeah so, very close in age. AT: 03:56 And where are you in the birth order? GH: 03:58 I' ; m in. Pardon? AT: 03:59 Where are you in the birth order? GH: 04:01 I' ; m in the, I' ; m second. AT: 04:02 Okay. Second son? GH: 04:03 Second eldest. Yeah. AT: 04:04 So there is, you only had the one, uh, brother who was in camp then? GH: 04:09 Who was where? AT: 04:10 Who was in camp? GH: 04:13 Um, actually one of my brothers was born in the camps. Um, so by the time we got out, we were all, they were all there, you know, yeah. Actually my brother Aylen interestingly, his name comes from an, from the doctor who actually, um, he agreed to kind of, it was not very fashionable for him to, to help us out, but he did. And so my mom named, uh, my brother Aylen after Dr Aylen. AT: 04:56 Was he a doctor in the camp? GH: 04:59 Um, no, no. He had to go, he had to come in, you know, and so he kind of did things that, that were not favorable, you know, what he did and that' ; s why they, my mom really appreciated what he did for us. And so my brother' ; s Aylen a y l e n for Doctor Aylen. Huh. AT: 05:23 And since you were so young in camp, GH: 05:29 Uh huh AT: 05:30 Do you have any memories of it or? GH: 05:32 I might have one vague memory of my grand mother being put on a truck to go out in the farm fields, but I, I, you know, it could just be my figment of my imagination. But I checked with my mother and she said, yeah, they would load her up on the trucks. And they' ; d go out to the field, the fields. So I kind of vaguely remember something about it, but I don' ; t know. AT: 05:58 And what about your family, did your parents or did anyone ever talk about? GH: 06:05 The camps? Uh, not that much. Although, um, my mom would talk about food rationing or trying to do something with food. It' ; ll getting us more food. Uh, also something with, uh, medical care cause she was a nurse. Um, there were some shortages and that sort of thing. AT: 06:35 Did she .. GH: 06:35 Dealing with that kind of thing, yeah. AT: 06:37 Did she work as a nurse in camp? GH: 06:39 Yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. She had a nursing degree at that time. And, uh, yeah. Although it was difficult for her to even achieve that, I mean, there was a lot of, you know, she, she was a very bright woman, but, uh, she said it was very difficult to get into nursing school and that sort of thing being Japanese. AT: 07:02 Oh? GH: 07:02 Yeah. AT: 07:08 And so I' ; m, I' ; m just thinking about, you know, being so, so young or having that experience happen at such an early part of your life. Um, I mean, was it something that you always knew about that you were, you know, your family was in camp? GH: 07:35 Although my mom was a very strong, uh, not typically Japanese [excuse?], But uh... AT: 07:46 And... GH: 07:46 and then she was involved with the redress and everything. You know what I mean? She really was. Uh, but there was, I nurse a lot of feelings about it and, uh, but it' ; s not like they were better. It doesn' ; t mean that the bitterness and resentment and all this sort of thing, it didn' ; t really resonate there. I don' ; t, I don' ; t recall. They just kind of tried to put their life back together. I know that it was difficult and then as again, getting older I appreciate what they went through, but I just sort of a child, you don' ; t really know what' ; s going on or just, you know, that' ; s what it is. AT: 08:38 Hmm. MMM. Was there ever a time in your life when you, um, looked more into the history of, GH: 08:49 as I got older, I, or I just re appreciated what they went through. And then of course after the war, I mean there was a lot of pressure to see. I mean, I experienced a lot personally. You know. Um, or at least let' ; s say seven years. I mean, you know, they would call me names and that sort of thing. But, uh, AT: 09:14 Was this, uh, in Chicago or. GH: 09:17 In Rockford as well as Chicago. Yeah, for sure. And that went on for awhile. Well. AT: 09:27 Do you remember life in Rockford? GH: 09:31 Oh Sure. Definitely. AT: 09:33 Well, what, can you describe it a little bit? What was it? GH: 09:35 Uh, I wasn' ; t actually in school, but, uh, and we did have, we had friends, we had a white friends. Uh... It' ; s, um, you know, having my brothers and we were very close in age. We were kind of like a little gang. You know Kip. Kip kept each other company and got into mischief on our own. AT: 10:06 We' ; re there other Japanese Americans? GH: 10:08 Uh, no, actually not. No, actually when you think of a, I never thought about it that way, but not really. No. We had, uh, our friends were all white. You know, so, yeah. AT: 10:24 And then how about when you came to Chicago? Can you describe that to me GH: 10:27 Chicago. We' ; re definitely in a lot of Japanese in Kenwood area or we moved, uh, we had, uh, the Ellis community center. We were in the boy, cubs scouts, you know, they were a lot of Japanese around. And that' ; s what social, our social activity was with, uh, with the church and with friends. AT: 10:57 Uh which church were you? GH: 11:00 Kenwood Ellis. It was actually, the church was two doors down on our, I mean, our home was on Ellis Avenue and then two doors down the church was there. So that was, yeah, it was kind of cool. Very convenient. AT: 11:23 Did you grow up speaking Japanese? GH: 11:25 No, not at all. See, my, um, um, my parents wanted to assimilate and they just never spoke Japanese. They, I mean, they knew, they were bilingual, but there' ; s, I mean, they would speak to my grandmother in Japanese. Uh, and then sometimes if they didn' ; t want us to know what was going on, they would talk in Japanese to each other. But that was about it. AT: 11:58 Do you remember your grandparents well? GH: 12:02 Um, sort of my, um, my mother' ; s mother, uh, was, uh, she wasn' ; t, she didn' ; t live in the same, uh, state. She was away. So I didn' ; t know her really at all. I know my, my father' ; s mother was in Chicago, but, uh, I didn' ; t really know her that well. AT: 12:35 Did you, um, you mentioned that you had experienced a bit of a prejudice in Rockford. Did you experience anything like that in Chicago? GH: 12:47 Yes. Oh yeah. I would say I could, and I mentioned, uh, I think until, I think until I was about 10, 9 or 10, I felt prejudice and comments and that sort of thing. And then, uh, later in life, I think I had mentioned that kind of reversed itself to a point where I was given certain attributes and things, uh, which is fine with me. I mean, AT: 13:21 people making assumptions. GH: 13:23 Yeah, good assumption, but you know, uh, as young adult, I even felt very self conscious, like even dating outside of you know, I didn' ; t feel that comfortable. Uh, uh, that' ; s stuck with me for quite awhile. Psychologically it was [motions to head in a swirling manner] AT: 13:46 Why, why don' ; t you, why didn' ; t you feel comfortable? Or what do you think GH: 13:51 something I think, I mean, Japanese had and then the way I was treated, I think it affected me. And, uh, so for quite a while I felt very self conscious about it, somewhat uncomfortable almost. And uh, with that I would say, um, so I was probably in my thirties, maybe, you know, I got became, everything became quite pleasant to a point. I mean, I, I managed to, uh, you know, I went, I got a master' ; s degree in a professional degree and in design, product design and I have a group, very good career, a good experience in that respect. Uh, so that was fine. You all of that was was great. Yeah. AT: 14:58 Um, earlier when we were speaking, you had mentioned um, And, and your wife even mentioned that you, you can speak a bit to kind of the legacy of, of camp and, and this, um, this particular history. Could you speak a little bit more about, um, you know, what effects you' ; ve noticed throughout your life, um, the, the camps may have had on your family or, GH: 15:30 well, I would say um, the most dramatic effect I think was with my dad, uh, who I believe, I really don' ; t think he really recovered from the camps. Um, he in, on the farm in Puyallup, I mean he had a high school education that was pretty much it for him. Uh, but he was quite well received in Puyallup and her was kind of a community leader. Um, he actually had a nice life. Things, having the farm, just, um, parents having a farm and then he was going to take the, take the farm over. Also having four sons, were good. Yeah. He could rely on us to probably become the farmers. I think he was anticipating a very good life for himself. Um, so the more being taken off the farm, I was very disruptive for him in particular. And uh, he just as a, I just remember my dad, he just was, I just don' ; t remember him never really been that happy, or, uh, you know, it was just kind of, he was just kinda going through life, you' ; re just trying to make the best, you know do the best he could. It was never a very joyful situation. Uh, yeah, that' ; s, that' ; s what I remember. Um, when my mother, she was always determined to, you know, she always said, you guys are going to make something out of yourselves. I mean, just, you know, and that' ; s, I think that' ; s the thing that really resonated in my mind. That' ; s, she said, don' ; t give up, even though we didn' ; t, we never had a great deal of money or means, uh, we figured it out one way or the other, how to do it. And I think that gave me a lot of strength. Um, you know, we didn' ; t have the money, but I went through junior high school and then transferred, um, to IIT and I get the masters degree and all of my brothers have professional, you know, professional degrees. And, uh, we did, we did quite okay, you know, in life. Um, and then, so I think that in a strange way, they experience toughened us up. Uh, you know, it was good. I mean, it was, that' ; s the positive part of it. And also, um, it forced us to get out of... Assimilate. We assimilated into society. So I think that' ; s another positive thing about it. But I certainly would not want this to happen to any other, I wouldn' ; t want it to happen to anybody else or to anybody. Yeah, I never really wanted to. AT: 19:00 If you could, um, pass along a message or a legacy to, to your own children and family, kind of like your mother did to you? What would you want to say to them? GH: 19:18 Well, my daughter, I think she really, uh, does appreciate, uh, my mom, I actually was, was fortunate. Is, uh, Rachel spent 14 quality years with my mother before she passed away. And, uh, my mother actually, uh, yeah, they were very close. She' ; s, she' ; s actually the only grandchild believe it or not, so she was, there was a lot of concentration of my mother' ; s influence on her and intimate moments and that sort of thing. Uh, you know, uh, but I think Rachel, my daughter does appreciate what we went through. What my, uy mother, her grandmother went through. Uh, she' ; s very aware of these things are socially, or... And teach, she teaches me lessons every day. She reminds me. Well in a sense, uh, she' ; s very liberal minded. Very socially aware of these things. Uh and, so if there' ; s any hint of me, uh, what can I say? Being insensitive about things, uh she' ; ll something, take me to task on it for sure. Yeah. I mean, I' ; m an old guy. I mean, I, yeah. So that' ; s, you know, AT: 21:25 And so, um, just as we wrap up here, why are, in your opinion, why, why is this, what can we learn from this history, um, and this experience that you or your family and so many other families went through or, or what, what do we need to learn from it? GH: 21:52 Um, we have really be, well, we can never take anything for granted. We really have to, I mean, look at what is going on today. I mean, is, I would say one thing our president is doing for us right now is waking us up. I mean, he is, things are so topsy turvy you just can' ; t be, you can' ; t ignore what' ; s going on. And I think it' ; s in a strange way that it' ; s good. That' ; s a good thing. Uh, and we need to always be vigilant and aware and not take things for granted at all. Um, you know, I would say that' ; s, that' ; s the thing that I resonates in my mind anyway. What can I say? AT: 23:02 Oh, is there anything else you might want to add or that I might' ; ve missed that you want to? GH: 23:12 Hmm. I just, you know, I want to be a good person. Thats uh, I want to live in the rest of my life. Uh, I, I certainly don' ; t make the, as much of an effort as I could. Yeah, no, for sure. But, uh, I tried to get it away from myself personally, tried to do something good. For mankind, but I know you, I really have to, I have to force myself to do it, but I try, at least I try. AT: 23:55 Thank you so much for taking the time. GH: 23:57 Thank you for asking me to do. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HasegawaGary20170712.xml HasegawaGary20170712.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/33" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Hasegawa, Aylen (10/6/2017)</a>
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Hasegawa, Gary (7/12/2017)
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Gary Hasegawa is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American, born on a farm in Puyallup, Washington. He was one year old when his family was incarcerated first at the Puyallup fairgrounds and then at Minidoka. He describes experiencing prejudice as a young boy while growing up in Rockford and in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood, and share his thoughts about the long-term impact of incarceration on his father.
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2017-07-12
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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Lincoln, Emma Saito
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Hikawa, Barbara (Sunnie)
Dolinar-Hikawa, Chelsea
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Sansei
Yonsei
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Mixed-race
Tule Lake
Drum and Bugle Corps
Christ Congregational Church
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5.4 6/23/2021 Hikawa, Barbara and Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (6/23/2021) 1:08:37 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Yonsei Intergenerational Mixed-race Tule Lake Drum and Bugle Corps Christ Congregational Church Hikawa, Barbara (Sunnie) Dolinar-Hikawa, Chelsea Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|24(16)|44(3)|62(2)|79(8)|95(2)|112(1)|126(12)|141(5)|163(1)|178(9)|195(6)|208(4)|230(8)|248(4)|263(12)|283(4)|297(3)|311(1)|332(10)|345(1)|357(4)|377(6)|405(2)|424(3)|436(10)|452(13)|471(6)|495(4)|509(5)|534(2)|563(7)|588(7)|602(16)|617(4)|637(1)|655(4)|681(11)|691(2)|705(17)|725(3)|738(11)|763(2)|773(13)|802(2)|818(4)|839(14)|866(2)|883(12)|903(3)|924(8)|947(10)|959(1)|976(5)|985(14)|998(11)|1010(8)|1023(9)|1035(5)|1048(9)|1059(1)|1072(4)|1082(7)|1094(4)|1105(10)|1118(11)|1133(12)|1151(8)|1166(11) 0 https://vimeo.com/583597304/2e900ffb4f Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/583597304?h=2e900ffb4f" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Barbara (Sunnie) Hikawa is a sansei born in Chicago in 1949, whose family has a rich history and strong roots in the local Japanese American community. In this interview, she is joined by her daughter Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa, a yonsei hapa who was also raised in the Chicago Japanese American community, particularly the Japanese American church community. During World War II, Sunnie and Chelsea Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is June 23rd, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln and the interviewee is Barbara Hikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese-Americans in the Chicago area. So to get us started, could you please state your full name for me? Barbara Hikawa (BH): Barbara Hikawa. EL: And what name do you go by? BH: I- But I go by Sunnie. EL: And what year were you born in? BH: I was born in 1949. EL: And where? BH: In Chicago, at Frank Cuneo Memorial Hospital, which no longer exists. EL: And is Chicago also where you grew up? BH: I grew up here, and I went away-- only away when I went to college and graduate school. EL: And where were your parents born and raised? BH: My mom was born in Las Animas, Colorado because my grandfather had a, a ranch there. And my grandfather-- my father was born in Walnut Creek, California which is near Sacramento. EL: And what about your grandparents? BH: So I believe all of my grandparents were from Yamanashi-ken. That' ; s the Mount Fuji, I think -ken and I' ; m pretty sure my grand- my maternal grandparents are from there. And my maternal, my paternal grandmother, I don' ; t know about my paternal grandfather because he died when I was, before I was born. EL: Do you happen to know approximately when your grandparents on either side first came to the U.S.? BH: Well, I think that my maternal grandfather was actually a very early arrival. I feel like there may be a family story that he came when the San Francisco earthquake happened that he was there, which would be like 1903? So I think that was pretty early, I don' ; t think many others came ' ; til the teens but I could be wrong about that. So I think he came, and then later I think my grandmother must have been a picture bride or something and came. And then my paternal grandparents I don' ; t know when they came. EL: Do you have any idea what motivated them to immigrate? BH: I don' ; t. I do k-, well let' ; s see, the pater- the maternal grandfather who came early, was I believe he was one of those sons he was like the second of a bunch of sons so he was given to another family to have their name to carry on the name. So, I don' ; t know. EL: And you said your, your maternal grandparents had a ranch? BH: Maternal grandparents had a ranch in Colorado. EL: Okay, and on your paternal side do you know what their, what your grandfather' ; s occupation was in the U.S.? BH: I don' ; t know about them, ' ; cause let' ; s see he died, he died e-early I guess. They, my father had four brothers. And then, no, he had a brother, and then sh- my grandmother remarried and there were three more sons, and then that fa- stepfather died bef- when I was really little, that I don' ; t remember so-- EL: I see. BH: So she was always just kind of a strong woman on her own. EL: Do you know on either side whether their pre-war homes were within communities of other Japanese-Americans or Japanese people? BH: Their pre-war homes? Oh, I, I do know that my mom has many friends from that era who are Japanese-American. So I assume that yes, that came, that came to different places in the country and I' ; ve heard about them and know them. I think they-- her mom took in like some kids from another family even, and they lived in Florida. She had a friend in New Jersey, and another friend from Chicago I think he' ; s-- he died a few years ago. EL: And those are all people that your mother knew in Colorado? BH: In Colorado. So there' ; s I think a small Colorado group of, of Nisei, Issei and Nisei and then my dad' ; s-- I don' ; t, Walnut Creek sounds like it might have had a, a Japanese-- but I, Japanese American population but I don' ; t know. EL: Did your parents ever talk about their childhood experiences with you? BH: Not much you know, the Nisei didn' ; t talk that much about themselves. My mom had a younger brother who died when he was like two, like ate some poison berries. And I think that was always a big blow that the son died, and that, so my paternal grandfather I think was very, connected-- proud of, you know, my father. That, she married this guy. So he became like the son they never had. Whereas, he came from five sons, but he was the oldest. And, I' ; m sorry, what was your question? If they talked about-- EL: Just about their childhood, what, what kinds of experiences they had? BH: Well I know my mom learned to drive a tractor at 11, that' ; s about all I know. My dad, I think told me that he used to eat tortillas with the Mexican farm hands in the fields with hot dogs. (laughs) EL: So let' ; s shift gears a little bit and talk about wartime, and let' ; s start with just when and where your family was incarcerated? BH: They were all, all of them were in Tule Lake. So I think my maternal, my paternal grandmother had a grocery store in Walnut Creek, or Sacramento? I don' ; t know. And I think at that time my pat- my maternal grandparents had sold the ranch and had moved to California. So they- so both sides were all sent to Tule Lake, where my maternal grandfather was like the block captain or something? These people in charge of things sort of. And my mom worked on the Tule Lake newsletter. She was the secretary, you know, illustrator, she made the covers. She was, my mom was an artist. And um-- Yeah, so they all-- My dad always tells the story how, he was graduating from high school and his- he wanted to buy a car. And he had his eye on this car, he had saved up the money, he was going to get the car-- and then he got interned. So. EL: So your father was just at the tail end of high school, how old was your mother? BH: She was a, she was exactly- they had the same birthday, she was exactly a year younger. So, I guess he had just graduated and she was going to graduate. EL: Was she able to finish her high school education in camp? BH: You know that' ; s a good question, I don' ; t know. I mean I know she went to community college, before-- You know? That doesn' ; t-- I don' ; t know, I, I guess not. I don' ; t know, I mean I know she went to college later so-- I guess so? EL: And what can you tell me about their experiences or your grandparent' ; s experiences at Tule Lake? Did they ever talk to you about that time? BH: No. They don' ; t talk about it. My mother, who is strangely-- she has-- Well, they may not be so strange, it may be pretty typical, I' ; m not sure, for Nisei. Will say, " ; Oh, it wasn' ; t so bad. It was not that bad, we had fun." ; You know she was there, there were a lot of young-- other people her age, teenagers I guess. Seventeen, eighteen-year-olds and they had fun or whatever. Though, we did find a sketchbook of hers from that period, and there' ; s pictures of the, the sheds and the camp and everything. EL: Do you have any idea maybe what kinds of things they brought with them, or what they might have left behind? BH: No. EL: No? BH: They, they have, obviously had to leave everything behind. The grocery store, sell a grocery store in three days and all the inventory? Yeah. EL: Do you know what their living quarters were like? BH: I don' ; t. I mean they were in a stable, right? But I think they were, like maybe just my grandparents and my mom and-- I-- but I don' ; t know for sure. EL: And then at some point your father was able to leave camp? BH: Right. He, the one way to get out was to go dig-- is it sugar beets? Something like that, up in Idaho or someplace like that? And so he signed up for that to get out of the camp. And he said that was just horrible, horrible, brack-baking, brack-bak-, back-breaking terrible work. And so he did not want to do that anymore so when the opportunity came to leave-- to enlist, he was ready to do that. And I guess they, there were some problems at the camp, I think Tule Lake had a bunch of, a lot of resistance people, so they, in the middle of the night, they got in a truck and left. So, like nobody knew that they were leaving, it was like they were whisked away. EL: Do you know what his motivations were for serving? Was it mostly as a way out of camp, or was it patriotism? BH: (laughs) Well that' ; s a good question. I, you know, the way he tells it, yeah he wanted to get out of camp. I' ; m sure there' ; s a patriotic motive in there. EL: And do you know how his parents felt about it when he made that decision? BH: I' ; m sure they were fine with it. Trying to think, the f- of the four brothers, probably at least three of them were with him. I think one might have gone, I think one maybe went back to Japan. Like they were given that choice, go to the camp or go to Japan, and I think the second brother may have done that. The other three went with my dad I think. And then they all, I think joined the Army too. EL: So what unit did he serve in? BH: So he was in the military intelligence. And I hope I' ; m not jumping your questions, but he' ; s got some, he had a great story about it which I only found out about when my second husband passed away and his family had come for the funeral and my dad just started talking. I had never heard him tell these stories. And so he told this story about the military intelligence service that he was in, which I' ; ve later read, I think-- And I knew he was in Minnesota, so I' ; m assuming that' ; s why he was in Minnesota was where, that' ; s where they were training them. Well there were some people like him who spoke English perfectly, he was born and raised here, and he could understand s- you know Japanese, but he could speak English perfectly. But he wasn' ; t very good at writing or reading. And then there were other people who were really good at writing Japanese, but they weren' ; t so good at speaking English. And then there are other people who could read it really well, but then they couldn' ; t write it-- Anyway there were three different types of skills, and what they discovered was, that in order to make one complete translator they had to have three people. To like really do like, hear what the thing was-- the person was saying in Japanese or read the, the document in Japanese and then sort of be able to tell it to my dad who then could translate in English and tell people what they were saying. But the Army he said, this is how efficient the Army is. So they made these groups of three. They all had their assignments and they' ; re in groups of three. And then when they got deployed they were all separated and sent to different troops. So all that work and-- I don' ; t know, he said, " ; That' ; s the army for you." ; (laughs) EL: Were his brothers also serving in the MIS? BH: Uh no, they weren' ; t in MIS I don' ; t think. But I think they were in some other combat or something. EL: And do you know where he was sent during the war? BH: He was in the South Pacific. So I mean he does talk about-- he, I do know he was in the South Pacific with MacArthur. EL: And while he was serving, his brothers were also serving, one brother was in Japan, his parents were still in camp, correct? BH: Yes. EL: Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about, connected to his military service, can you tell me about after the war, his involvement in the Nisei Post? BH: Oh, well, alright so-- I' ; ll kind of be broad here. My grandfather on my mother' ; s side, remember I said he was like the block captain but had also come over as-- he' ; d also been given a name that wasn' ; t his name, but I believe th- a cousin of his, like a blood cousin, had come to Chicago and was part of the Resettlers Committee. So that' ; s why they came here to Chicago. And then my dad was up in Minnesota and I think he had known my mom, but was dating somebody else at the time. But then he started coming down and seeing my mom, that' ; s when they got together. And wait, and your question is-- how-- EL: Nisei Post. BH: --Nisei Post. Oh, well then-- EL: (laughs) But this is also very interesting! BH: --Yeah, but so then, after the war, they settled in Chicago. And well my guess is anybody who was a veteran would join the, the American Legion Nisei Post. ' ; Cause there were plenty of you know four, four four two, 442nd and MIS people here so, there was a, a solid Japanese American community, not huge but you know pretty well connected. And I do know, I actually met somebody from the, from, from New York or something, a, a Nisei woman who had never been interned because she was on the East Coast. So they didn' ; t get interned, or Hawaii. EL: So let' ; s, let' ; s rewind a little bit then, ' ; cause you were trying to explain about your parents and how part of your family came to Chicago, and then your father was coming down to Chicago, so-- Your parents had met in camp? BH: Yeah, I think they knew each other. Right, so-- I mean, you know they, they knew of each other maybe or something. And then, I don' ; t know how that switched that my dad suddenly started visiting to see my mom. And then yeah, his family came out to Chicago too. EL: And what about your, your dad' ; s parents, where did they go after camp? BH: Well that-- I don' ; t know when, I don' ; t exactly how-- But I-- this was what I was, what I had written to you. My pat- my father' ; s mother had a boarding house in Chicago that was like a way station for a lot of Nisei or even-- Is it Nikkei? People from Japan? Coming through Chicago. So, a lot of people would come and stay there and live there for a few years before getting married or doing something else. So that, she was sort of known I think, with that. EL: Did that have a name, did the building have a name? BH: No. It was-- EL: Do you know where, where it was located? BH: Yeah I do know where it was. It was-- Let' ; s see what was it? It was something like 1122 or 1022 North LaSalle. EL: And what was her name? BH: Her name was Wakao Hikawa. But my father' ; s father, blood father was named Sato. But he took my, his stepfather' ; s name of Hikawa. EL: So at what point did your parents actually marry? BH: That' ; s a good question, I don' ; t know? Let' ; s see, I was born in 1949 and I think they were married for probably a couple years before that? So 47, 46, 45? I don' ; t know. EL: And at that point in time, were they both working? BH: Let' ; s see-- Oh my dad, on the GI Bill, he got into Harvard Law School and Northwestern Law School and he wanted, my mom wanted him to go to Harvard, but he wanted to stay in Chicago so I think he went to Northwestern. So he was in law school, I think probably at the very beginning and then he became a lawyer. And so she was-- I think, she was helping out at-- Oh, the name is going to escape me but it was another pretty prominent Chicago Japanese American family. Is it Yamamoto maybe? The Yamamotos, they had a, he had a trading import company and so she worked there with him. --Or, Dick Yamada? Well anyway-- (laughs) EL: And then you' ; re born in 1949, do you have siblings? I do, I have two younger sisters. My second sister lives in-- now, Greenwich, Connecticut and Palm Beach, Florida and she was a lawyer at-- um, vice president at ABC television. And my youngest sister is the associate principal violist of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Symphony, and she' ; s been there for like 40 years so she' ; s a real Los Angeleno. EL: And where did you all grow up? Which neighborhood? BH: We all grew up in Uptown, which was a changing neighborhood at the time. It was, it had been really Jewish, and then it was starting to just change over to Appalachian white people were moving in. And I remember a Chinese laundry family moved in, and I used to play with that son. There was a lot of playing in the neighborhood with a lot of different kids. And so it was changing over. EL: And what schools did you go to? BH: All, we all went to Francis Parker School which is a private school not in our neighborhood. We should have gone to Goudy Public School but we didn' ; t. And, and then Senn High School but we went to Francis Parker. EL: And was Francis Parker all the way through from K through 12? BH: (nods) I started at 5 years old, went through high school and my sister started at 4 years old and went through high school. EL: Were there many other Japanese-American families in your orbit at that time, or at your school? BH: Not at my school, no. There was a Korean kid in my class, which is, I think how we got to Parker because his father was a dentist and he' ; d been in dental school at Northwestern when my dad was in law school and they' ; d gotten to be buddies. And that' ; s how my dad found out about Francis Parker. But other than that, no not at Parker. But in the neighborhood, every summer I went to the Park District Day Camp and then I did meet more neighborhood kids and there was a, there were a couple of Japanese American Sanseis like me, and so-- EL: Did your family participate in any Japanese American organizations? BH: Oh yes, (laughs) of course they did. So, I s- mentioned that we, my grandparents went to the Presbyterian Church on Sheffield. But not, then my family when I was like five, we switched to Christ Congregational Church on Buckingham. And there was a huge Sunday school, I mean there must have been two hundred kids and, and they also had like a volleyball league for teenagers. So my cousins, my sort of cousins from the original family of my grandfather' ; s cousin, like my mom' ; s second or third cousin. They were older than us and they played in like that volleyball or softball league. And my dad was in the American Legion Post 1183, right? God, my memory is going. And they started a Drum and Bugle Corps so I participated in the Drum and Bugle Corps. And through that, you really got to know there were like six Japanese churches. So there was like the Presbyterian Church, there was our church Tri-C, there was MBT which is Midwest Buddhist Chur- Temple and now it' ; s called BTC, Buddhist Temple of Chicago but back then we just called it-- something else I can' ; t remember. And CFC, Christian Fellowship Church, maybe a couple others, JCJC Japanese Church of Jesus Christ, and one that was on Lakeside I think. Um-- but so you, as teenagers you kind of, if you had a dance, if one group had a, if the Legion Posts had a dance, all the other people from all the other churches your age might show up, you know the Eagle Scouts and-- And then Drum Corps was started out mostly Japanese American but then changed. And then I remember my parents joined a group or started a group with a bunch of other Japanese Americans called The Co-Op Investors, cooperative investors. And so that was a big part our li- of our lives. A lot of those people I know were good friends of my parents and they always had a big Christmas party that we looked forward to every year and I think they socialized and had dances and stuff. EL: Can you explain to me what that group did? BH: Oh yeah, it was an investment group, they invested money. EL: So they pooled their funds and-- BH: They pooled their funds I guess and did investments, I don' ; t know. EL: Were they investing in, in other community efforts? Or community, or-- BH: I was a kid, I didn' ; t know what they did. It was just, " ; Co-Op Investors" ; and I think they had a credit union maybe, I was able to get, start a little savings account or something with them and, and a bunch of those people' ; s kids I knew who also went to Drum and Bugle Corps, stuff like that so-- EL: And about Drum and Bugle Corps, what kinds of activities did you do as part of that? BH: Well, mostly t-the drum and bugle corps. We had you know, practices like twice a week or whatever and then marching practice and then we' ; d go to competitions and parades and-- And so you were with those people a lot (laughs). But they started getting bigger and, and lettin-- like more people start to join from all over the city and far away. EL: I think we' ; ll pause there. -- EL: And we have an additional interviewee has joined us, so could you please introduce yourself? Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (CDH): Hi, my name is Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa and I am Sunnie Hikawa' ; s daughter. EL: And in what year were you born? CDH: 1974. EL: Okay, and you were born here in Chicago? CDH: Um, I was actually born on the West Coast in Oregon but we moved here, back here when I was very young maybe 2 or so? Or a baby, yeah I think? BH: Yeah. EL: And then you' ; ve-- CDH: And then I' ; ve lived here ever since, yes. EL: Okay, so let' ; s switch back to what we were talking about. We had just finished discussing the Drum and Bugle Corps and the many organizations that your family was part of. In particular, church. And could you explain to me your involvement in the choir at church? BH: Well so, let' ; s see. So I, I would say I grew up in the church. Um-- You know I think the Nisei population here was close-knit in that most of them knew everybody and they all did things with-- amongst themselves. Whereas my generation I would say-- We spread out a little bit more. Yes we still had Sansei friends, but we also had other friends too. Whereas I would say most of my parents' ; friends, most, were, if they weren' ; t work colleagues, were Japanese American-- were also Nisei. So the church, I' ; d gone there as a child, and then I went away to college. I got married, I had kids, and I decided I think I had, I think at, at some point I decided to go sing in the choir. So, ' ; cause my family was very musical, we had all been musi- musical, studied music. So I decided to sing in the choir and then they lost the choir director and they asked me if I would be the choir director. So without having experience I gained it by doing it on the job. And then oh about five la- years later I actually did get my job at Francis Parker as music teacher accompanist/companist, and then got a master' ; s degree in music. So then I was the choir director for a long time! (laughs) For 30, I don' ; t know 35 years, maybe more? 40? EL: And, what did you find most rewarding about that? BH: You know that the church is a wonderful group of people. A very caring and supportive group of people, and so it was just, it was-- and there were also quite, some very good singers and good musicians in the choir. So it was pretty fun to work with them and create music. EL: And I understand this choir connection is, is a thread that carries through to the next generation so could you explain a little bit about that? BH: Well I, I was also working full-time, and I started to get burned out from the two jobs. And so I decided to retire from the choir job. And so they said okay, and they put up a listing, and my daughter Chelsea who is also, has a music degree, decided to apply for the job, and she got it! CDH: Yes, about 10 years ago. So I applied, and initially of course I thought, " ; Oh well I' ; m Sunnie' ; s daughter, I grew up in the church, of course I' ; m gonna just be given this job!" ; But they had an entire application process so I had to t- apply and I had interviews and everything and then I got the job as choir director, as music director. And so I' ; ve been doing it for about the last 10 years I' ; d say, and it' ; s been wonderful. EL: How does it make you feel as a mother to know that you' ; ve passed on this-- BH: (Laughs) EL: --both the talent and the position to your daughter? BH: Oh, it' ; s, it' ; s great! It' ; s great because I can, we can talk about it, and we- I understand the, the problems or the issues that, that she might encounter. And, you know, and so I still sing in the choir for her. CDH: She still helps me a lot. She' ; s still quite present, and actually this past year because of the pandemic we sort of jointly worked together. I have two young sons who were hybrid learning and so I had kind of a difficult year and my mom h-- now that she' ; s retired, she was actually had time to help me. So we were able to go completely virtual with the choir and she learned an entirely new set of skills to master it and so we did that jointly. That was a really fun project that we, we mastered, and recorded. BH: To make virtual choir videos. CDH: Yeah, virtual-- more than 20 songs that we worked on over the year with, with our choir. BH: (smiles) They' ; re online, and anybody can hear it. CDH: They' ; re on YouTube, you can watch them. (laughs) EL: And, and one of those was part of the Memorial Day program correct? BH: Right, because for the last, I don' ; t know, 30 years a lot of the other choirs of the other Japanese churches kind of faded away, but ours remained quite vibrant. And so they asked us to perf- to sing for the the Memorial Day services so every year we' ; re the church that they ask to do that. And, this year, as in the past they, well they decided on a virtual service, and I guess-- CDH: Right, Karen Kanemoto had written to me saying, " ; Do y- is there anything that you could submit?" ; and I was like, " ; Oh, well coincidentally, actually we' ; ve been working on videos for our choir for the last six months so I definitely have a good selection I could send you." ; EL: How has the past year changed how you view choir leadership? I mean aside from having to take on a new skill set and adapt to things being virtual, has it, has it altered how you think about leading a choir? CDH: Yes, I think so. But I, I have to think about that. I think it became even more apparent to me that it' ; s actually a really fundamental part of community and a worship service that, I think everyone understands that music is so powerful but when you don' ; t have access to it, it' ; s absolutely just so important and people really feel the lack of it. So when the pandemic first happened, and I was just singing solos every week and it wasn' ; t quite the same thing and then my mom had the idea, we should try and actually do this virtual thing and I was worried, a lot of our choir members are older and it' ; s a really hard new thing to learn with computers I was like, " ; Oh, I' ; m not sure it' ; s gonna be really complicated." ; But my mom was like, " ; No, I really think we can do it, we' ; ll, we' ; ll figure it out step by step and do it together." ; And we did. And I think initially people were hesitant, but then-- BH: Oh, they were hesitant. (laughs) CDH: They were hesitant (laughs) to do this. But then when we did, and they saw that we were still recreating this, this powerful experience of singing together, even though we weren' ; t actually, technically in the same place, it was just-- it was-- BH: The response was-- CDH: The response was huge, and people were so appreciative, and I just think more than ever people recognized that, that music, that singing together in harmony is such a fundamental part of being a human. Like it' ; s really taken on even more import don' ; t you think? BH: Yeah. And I think that, I think our church was proud because they pivoted so quickly to online services, but I was noticing they just felt kind of lacking something. So I' ; m glad we did that. CDH: Yeah, and actually the really beautiful thing, (to BH) did you talk about Makoto and, an-- BH: Oh! No I didn' ; t, oh! CDH: So of course, the one silver lining about doing virtual choir is that anyone can participate regardless of where they are in the world, and we have some wonderful members of the church who' ; ve moved back to Japan, and have never been able to sing with us again. But then they joined again, and they' ; ve been singing in our virtual choir this whole year. BH: Yup. CDH: So that' ; s been a really big li- silver lining. EL: Is your church still majority Japanese American? CDH: Yeah? BH: Yeah? CDH: Maybe half and half? Or maybe even more than half? BH: Maybe probably still majority, yeah. EL: Do you have any sense if that' ; s also the case for the other churches that were prominent in the Japanese American community when you were growing up? BH: I' ; m going to guess that we are more diverse than some of those that have survived. I mean I know that the Presbyterian Church that was on Sheffield, and then they' ; ve moved to Ravenswood area, right? Is that where Elaine' ; s sister goes? CDH: I can' ; t remember. BH: That-- it' ; s a more fundamental church. CDH: Yeah. BH: And I understand they' ; re doing very well. Like they have a, a they' ; re pretty, they have a pretty good population. CDH: Yeah. BH: But I think it' ; s mostly Japanese American, but I don' ; t know, so maybe I should stop. CDH: Yeah I think our church makes a very concerted effort to be very much about social justice and interaction with the community. And we happen to be located in West Ridge, which is a very diverse community, though obviously not that many Japanese Americans. And so that' ; s taken on more of a presence in the church. And we' ; re open and affirming as well so-- EL: So we talked a little bit, Sunnie, about your upbringing and your school experience, but Chelsea I' ; m wondering if we could talk a little bit about your Chicago upbringing as a Japanese American and whether, you know whether you had Japanese American classmates at school or whether you were engaged in a lot of social activities or organizations out- other than church that had a JA focus. CDH: Right so at school, at Francis Parker where I attended in the eighties and nineties, I think it became much less diverse than it had been when my mom was there previously. I think it' ; s gotten more diverse again, but it was a very homogeneous period back then, so my classmates and I would always joke that there was one and a half Japanese people in the class. There' ; s one other classmate who was Japanese and then me, being half Asian. And that might have been the only Asians in, in my whole grade actually. There was not a lot of Asians back there, then. However, I did grow up in the Japanese church in that I had to go every Sunday, and I was always at all of the cultural events. That was, I, I feel very large part of my life as a child. I can remember all the things we celebrated, you know Aki-Matsuri, and making ozoni, and all these things that, that were culturally important to me when I was a kid. And I did spend a lot of time with my maternal grandparents growing up, with my mom' ; s parents. And so I think both for me and my sister that informed a lot of how we feel about like eating Japanese American cuisine like we really, really used to doing things like that. And I did also study taiko drum at Midwest Buddhist Temple when I was in high school and I really enjoyed that. But in my school experience I would say no, there was very little exposure or kinship with other Asians. And actually, I can remember in eighth grade my mom felt that Parker was not a diverse community, and she really wanted me to switch and go to Whitney Young where at least there' ; d be more people of color. But I was very attached to my friends, and I didn' ; t want to move so I stayed there the whole time. But I feel like a-- both my sister and I studied Japanese, the language in college and we both studied abroad in Japan ' ; cause that was very interesting to us. And so I feel like much more in college I was able to access that part of my cultural heritage. EL: When you were young, did you have much awareness of the history of incarceration and what your family had been through during the war? CDH: I think when I was very young I did not. I' ; m, I' ; m, I' ; m thinking I became more aware of that maybe as a preteen? And also I would say like, for my grandfather he would sometimes speak about his experiences with um-- he was with Military Intelligence translating in the Pacific, my grandmother was incarcerated at Tule Lake and she would never talk about it. Right? BH: (shakes head) CDH: It was a very taboo subject for her. So even if you would ask her directly about it, it was just something she didn' ; t want to discuss, so I think as a child I was not aware of that but definitely as a preteen I, I became more cognizant of what had happened. EL: Was that because it was taught to you at school? Or did you hear, h-hear it from your mother or other community members? CDH: I' ; m trying to remember, I, I don' ; t know. I know, well actually, ' ; member? I think I was in high school there was a, an interesting exhibit at the Field Museum about Japanese American women in Chicago. Do you remember that? And we performed there. It was, it was back in the 90s I think there was actually an exhibit. BH: Oh maybe, yeah. CDH: So I know that was a part of it, and I, I' ; m not sure? Maybe at church, I' ; m not, I' ; m not sure. EL: And Sunnie did you, do you have a memory of learning about incarceration at a specific point in your life, or did you kind of always know about it? BH: No, I, I don' ; t know-- I can' ; t pinpoint a spot, but I do know, I told you that we-- I have this old, yellowed, Tribune magazine from, I' ; m going to say 1954? No, probably 1958 or 9. That, where they did an article about the incarceration, and they interviewed my family. --or they did an article about my family and I think it was because of the incarceration. So-- that' ; s probably it. CDH: I just remembered something. BH: Oh you did? CDH: So I don' ; t remember when reparations were given, but I was a teen or pre-teen and my grandparents did receive reparations. And I remember that. EL: Did you understand at that time what it was for? CDH: I think it, then it was explained to me. That Grandma and Grandpa are getting money from the government, why is this happening, what are they gonna do with it, and then I can remember that being like, " ; Oh yes, so the government is finally apologizing." ; And I remember it was sad for my grandparents because their parents were the ones who substantially lost property, but they were not alive anymore to receive the apology and the reparations. I can remember that quite well. EL: Do you remember your grandparents' ; emotional response? CDH: Not real-- I feel like they were like, " ; It' ; s about time!" ; (laughs) But, maybe they didn' ; t discuss that with me as much. BH: Yeah. EL: Were they at all involved in the redress movement, or, or were you Sunnie? BH: No, not at all, my guess is that it was incidental. It had happened, it was done, moving on. Oh, here' ; s this check, isn' ; t that nice? EL: And this question is, is really for both of you, when you were growing up or in adulthood, did you ever experience racism or bias due to your identity? BH: Well, I have one story I always tell. Which is that when I was about 10, I was going to the grocery store and this kid yelled at me from across the street, " ; Ching, chong, Chinaman!" ; something like that. And I remember the shock, and the with being, what, withdrawing. But then I pulled myself together and said, " ; I' ; m not Chinese, I' ; m Japanese!" ; But, like, I really showed him! (laughs) What a good repartee, retort. So I remember that very clearly. CDH: I have, well I have a couple stories. I do remember as a teenager walking down Diversey right by your house, with my grandparents, Courtney and I, and a bunch of drunk people were coming out of the bars and they surrounded Grandma and Grandpa and started yelling " ; Ching Chong" ; in their faces. And my sister and I got up in their faces and were like, " ; Leave our grandparents alone!" ; and they ran away, but I remember that very distinctly. They just surrounded them and started yelling, " ; ching-chong-ching-chong-ching" ; right in Grandma and Grandpa' ; s faces. So that was crazy. Me personally, because I' ; m biracial, people don' ; t always know what I am, often they think I' ; m Latina. I' ; ve actually experienced name calling because of that. But I did have a pretty crazy experience about 10 years ago, I was walking in the Little Saigon neighborhood with my husband and his friend, and this man came up and punched me as hard as they could in the chest a couple times and knocked the wind out of me. And at the time I thought, " ; What is happening, is it ' ; cause I' ; m a woman? Like I can' ; t be ' ; cause I' ; m Asian? Like what is happening?" ; And we called the police, and they picked him up and he told the police officer I was a, a, " ; Chink Gook Bitch" ; sorry. And I had to get out of his neighborhood. So that was very shocking to me, but that did happen about 10 years ago. EL: Wow, especially given what' ; s going on now-- CDH: Mhmm. EL: --that' ; s incredible to know that you experienced that, not during this current wave, but, but prior to it. CDH: No, I, I think that just shows that it' ; s always been there but it' ; s just much more public, public now that people are aware of that, but I' ; m sure incidences like that happe- have happened for the last fifty years. And yeah, I mean at the time I remember they said, " ; Do you want to press charges?" ; and I was just sort of in shock, and I didn' ; t. But maybe knowing what I now-- know now maybe I should have, but I, I didn' ; t even think of it. EL: How did you, how did you move past that experience? CDH: Um, I don' ; t know, I still think about it sometimes. I can remember the man' ; s face, and how he looked at my face and he just hated me. I can see it very clearly. He just saw my face, and he just hated me right away. Which is crazy! I, I will say he actually was black, and I understand that there is sometimes animosity between those two communities, and I know why that' ; s there because he' ; s obviously more oppressed than I am, so I just sometimes think of that. EL: And given that, that you had this experience some time ago, when all of this news over the past year started t- to be talked about, that hate directed at AAPI folks, especially directed at women, and in many cases elderly women, CDH: Yeah, EL: How did you react to that? CDH: Well it made me feel very sad, it made me feel vulnerable, especially for like my mom, my aunts, my grandma, it made me worried a l-, really worried for them. But so we did, my mom and I are working on an initiative, we' ; re raising funds for Advancing Justice Chicago. We have a, a five concert series that we' ; re performing at church, and all the money we raise will go to fight anti-Asian racism. That' ; s the best we can do. EL: Have either one of you changed your, your behavior, your sort of daily behavior to protect yourselves? Do you feel you can protect yourselves? CDH: I don' ; t think we have, I keep telling all my relatives, " ; You have to be careful!" ; but, but they' ; re like, " ; No we' ; re strong we' ; re fine!" ; Though I will say one of my best friends who is Korean, drives with a block over the side, so that no one can tell she' ; s Asian when she' ; s driving. Teresa does. BH: Oh really? CDH: ' ; Cause she' ; s, she lives in the suburbs and she' ; s afraid. EL: Thank you for sharing that experience. So, I want to switch back to Sunnie briefly, are there any particular people, places, or events that hold special meaning for you from your childhood? BH: Hmm, well I' ; m sure there are, as I said the Co-Op Investors, that Christmas party, and then every year the Resettler' ; s committee had a picnic, and I remember going to that one. Co-Op Investors would also do a, we did, like a r- not a retreat we' ; d like, we went up to a camp somewhere for a weekend, stayed three nights at some cabin in Northern Michigan, or something, or Wisconsin. That was super fun. The church' ; s, it used to be called a Bazaar, now it' ; s called Aki-Matsuri for the last 30 years, and that' ; s always a great event. Can I think of anything else? I can' ; t. EL: Can you describe for me some of the activities at the Resettler' ; s picnics? BH: I' ; m afraid I can' ; t, I was young. They w- I' ; m sure they had relay races and games and stuff like that. Tha- our church picnic is also a lot of fun. We have games, but we also have like a potluck I should say that the potlucks of, like Mother' ; s Day potluck, or just any of the potlucks that we have at our church, the food is fantastic! So it' ; s a lot about the food and it' ; s great! EL: And then, are there still elements of Japanese food present at those events? CDH: Oh yeah! It' ; s all Japanese food. BH: Oh! Yeah a lot. It' ; s mostly, it' ; s mostly Japanese food. CDH: It' ; s the best home cooked Japanese food! BH: Yes, it' ; s y-you know, age-sushi, inari-sushi, and maki-sushi, and-- CDH: --teriyaki, BH: --teriyaki, CDH: --chashu, BH: --yeah! (laughs) EL: I' ; m, I' ; m curious about language, especially because you mentioned Chelsea that you studied Japanese, and your, your sister studied Japanese. Barbara, did you grow up knowing Japanese at all? BH: I did not! (laughs) And this is crazy, because I did visit my other daughter in Japan when she was living there, and everybody would come up to talk to me and I would give them this blank look, and then my daughter would start talking in very fluent Japanese. And that was kind of off-putting I think for the people there. I-- this is one of those things like, " ; Oh I wish I hadn' ; t quit piano when I was young" ; --that people say. I mean I didn' ; t quit piano, I still play piano. But all the other kids had to go to Japanese school, and we did not. And I was really happy that we didn' ; t have to go, ' ; cause they all hated it, but of course now I wish I could speak Japanese. I really do. EL: Do you know why your parents didn' ; t make you go? BH: My parents, I like to think that my parents were pretty modern, sort of, not separate from the Japanese American community, but willing to send me to private school, and look at other outside opportunities for us-- CDH: --I think Grandma also really wanted to assimilate, I feel like they were purposely not giving you a Japanese cultural childhood, you and my aunts. Because they really felt-- I feel like for my grandma after the experience of the internment camps, she really wanted you guys to be Americanized. BH: And ambitious yeah. CDH: Yes, and really be true American girls, with American names and like leave that behind you know? BH: Yeah, I think you' ; re right. EL: How did, how does that make you feel about some of the elements of Japanese culture that have been lost, that weren' ; t transmitted from your grandparents generation to your mother, and thus couldn' ; t be transmitted from your mother to you? CDH: Yeah, I, I do think it' ; s a shame and I think all my cousins feel that way. We, we wish, I mean hindsight is 20-20, but we wish there had been more of a passing of it along, because neither of my aunts ha- have it either and all of their kids are interested in their cultural heritage too. So it' ; s, it' ; s too bad that that' ; s not what happened. EL: Do you feel that by studying Japanese yourself in college and then studying abroad in Japan you were able to reclaim some of that heritage? CDH: Oh definitely, and I know my cousin also studied Japan-- Japanese in school as well. We were all kind of wanting to get back that piece of our identity that we didn' ; t have as much, and it, it' ; s not anyone' ; s fault! (laughs) BH: (laughs) CDH: But it was important to us, so yes, mos- we all studied Japanese and we all went abroad and lived in Japan, and yeah it was very-- it was, it made me feel proud to reclaim that. BH: I think, like Jane Kaihatsu too, like a l- there were people even my age, CDH: She' ; s a sansei. BH: --who felt, they wanted to find out more about that piece of themselves of their identity and did go explore in Japan. CDH: Mhmm, definitely. EL: And regarding incarceration, have any members of your family participated in pilgrimages back to Tule Lake? CDH: No, I think we would be interested, but that' ; s the piece of th-- my grandma wants to not look at it, is I don' ; t think she would ever want to go back there. And she wouldn' ; t ever want to discuss it. And in fact most of the Nisei I know do not want to talk about it, the only Nisei I, I knew who would let us like interview her was very young at the time, she was only like 10 when she was incarcerated, so she didn' ; t have the same emotional experience that older people did. But so, for my grandma s- I don' ; t think she' ; d ever be interested in retracing that. BH: And she' ; s 100 now, so clearly her parents and all the Issei are gone. CDH: Yeah, it' ; s too bad ' ; cause I think the rest of us would be interested. EL: If you could talk to your grandmother about her time in camp or if you could speak to your mother about time in camp, what would you most want to ask her? BH: Hmm, (laughs) CDH: I mean, I would like to know her, how she felt emotionally and like everything! I' ; d want to know what her daily life was like, and I' ; d want to know everything about the experience. Remember we did find that, she had been like the publisher of the newsletter or something we found these old papers and, yeah-- BH: Right, no I told her about that, and I want to bring them and have them go into the historical-- CDH: But my feeling is that she is just not interested in discussing that at all. BH: There' ; s, yeah. I- even when we found those sketches, I believe what I was doing was trying to do oral histories from my parents on camera. So I was interviewing my dad, ' ; cause my mom didn' ; t want to do it and I found those sketches, I think I was showing them to my dad and my mom, or-- I was asking my dad about questions, and my mom brought out these sketches. She would never have done it if we had asked her directly, but it was because I was interviewing my dad that all of a sudden these little sketches suddenly appeared. But then, she didn' ; t really want to talk about them after that. CDH: Actually, I tal- do you remember this crazy story? So, my husband is Italian-American and I' ; m Slovenian and Japanese, so when we had our, we had like a bridal shower at church and we had all different kinds of food and I was like, " ; Oh I, I thought it' ; d be fun, I put up the three flags for Slovenia, Italy, and Japan, and one of the nisei woman came up to me and said " ; Chelsea, I' ; m worried we' ; re going to get in trouble because you put up the Rising Sun, should we take that down?" ; She' ; s like, " ; What if the police come?" ; And I was like, " ; Well, I, I promise you we will be okay but if you really feel uncomfortable, I could take it down?" ; and she was like, " ; No, no I just want to make sure that you' ; re careful." ; But she was like, afraid! EL: And what year was that in? CDH: 2007? Like this was fairly recent, but she was nervous cuz I put up the Japanese flag. BH: Wow. EL: Chelsea, I would like to ask you as a fellow mixed-raced Japanese American, BH: --it' ; s almost 4:15 so-- CDH: Okay. EL: --and given that you grew up very much connected to the Japanese American community here, were you ever made to feel less than because you were half? CDH: Definitely not by the community here in Chicago, and definitely not my parents or grandparents, friends, definitely not. But I will say in college I sometimes felt I didn' ; t really belong in one group or the other just from being mixed race. So I, I felt that more when I stepped out of my own community that I' ; d been raised in. EL: And did you know many other mixed-race Japanese Americans growing up? CDH: Aside from my own family I don' ; t think I did. My cousins are, and-- BH: That' ; s it, yeah. CDH: --no, I think I really-- and in fact I think it was much a rarer to be mixed Japanese when I was little, now I see many-- like my sons, many of their friends are half-Asian, but when I was little it was much rarer to be half-Asian. EL: And I think we' ; ll pause there so that you can take off. -- EL: So we were talking about pilgrimage and maybe interest in your generation and your children' ; s generation but out of respect for your mother' ; s feelings about it, you all choose not to participate in pilgrimage. We talked a little bit about Chelsea' ; s mixed-race experience, and I' ; m wondering, you mentioned trying to do oral history, and, and how your mother engaged a little bit only because you were talking to your father. Was your father willing to talk about camp at all, or was it just his military experience? BH: Yeah, I think he would have been much more willing to talk about it, I just don' ; t even remember if I asked him much. But, yeah my dad was, is more open-- Was. EL: And did you, did you have other relatives or family friends who did talk openly about camp? BH: I don' ; t think so. I think, I would think a universal Sansei experience would be that the Issei and the Nisei did not talk about camp. There' ; s that Japanese um, Japanese virtue gaman. You don' ; t monku-monku about, you don' ; t complain, you just get on, so-- EL: So how did you go about educating yourself about this very important piece of your family' ; s history? BH: I think, I didn' ; t go about educating myself, I think pieces of it just would come out here and there like, " ; What camp were you at?" ; " ; We were at Tule Lake." ; " ; Oh, how old were you?" ; That, but over the years. Just, and you put it together, that piece of the puzzle with what you read of elsewhere or find out about from films, or other media, and it just fits in and becomes part of that picture. EL: Did you feel a sense of loss in terms of cultural heritage, or did it ever occur to you that, that you hadn' ; t received cultural knowledge from your parents? BH: No, as I say because-- we' ; re so Western, my family was so Western compared to many of the, most of my other Sansei friends, that I felt unique or proud of that. So no, I didn' ; t feel that until now. I wish I could speak Japanese, or knew how to cook Japanese food better-- EL: So how did it feel when your children did feel a sense of loss or something missing and then took steps to acquire that for themselves? BH: I don' ; t think it was expressed as a sense of loss, I think it' ; s more of a sense of curiosity, wanting to know about this. So when she took Japanese in college I said, " ; Oh, that' ; s great, that sounds like fun!" ; And the same thing for m-- and then she did her junior year abroad in Japan, in Osaka. And then my youngest daughter actually got a fellowship to teach at a college in Ja- Japan, to teach English at a college in Japan. So she was there for three years, and got really fluent in Japanese culture and Ja- and Japanese language. EL: And other than the awkwardness of people expecting you to speak Japanese when you were in Japan, what was the experience like for you, going to visit your, your children in Japan? BH: Well it, that was the last two weeks of a three month around the Pacific thing. My partner and I backpacked, we went to Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and then we went to Japan. So, he was tired, and wanted to get home, and I thought it was just-- the food was fantastic, just delicious food which is a crucial part of any culture for me. And so the food was great, but he found the culture so foreign. Like of all the places that we had visited, this was the most foreign. We' ; ve been all over the world in many, many different cultures but the juxtaposition of the ancient and the modern and I mean technologically, way futuristic modern, just was so jarring to him. And the fact that when we approached anybody to talk to them people were very, and would run away. They just, they were very wary of us and t- of tourists and didn' ; t want to talk. And he found that pretty off-putting. (laughs) EL: Was that in more rural areas, or also in cities? BH: No, no no no. That was in Tokyo and Osaka. Everywhere we went, we' ; d ask a question, people' ; d just, in English, I would say like, " ; Do you speak English?" ; and they' ; d all (no gesture). And this was in 2000 so, I understand-- well I could be wrong, I think somebody told me that now things are, you see English signs and things like that. But then you didn' ; t. So when we' ; re trying to get around the subway, and every name of every stop was in Japanese letters, and we' ; d just like, they all look the same! It' ; s very hard. Like which stop did we want? Is it that one? That one? That one? So, yeah. So he, he was not very fond, he didn' ; t like it very much. I would of course love to go back. We did have a couple of wonderful experiences at a ryokan, a minshuku, and that was pretty amazing ' ; cause it was in the winter, so nobody was there. We were the only guests. They have the outdoor Japanese, the min-, what is it, the hot tub out there? And the, in the minshuku, the woman, her neighbor had caught a fish. She said, " ; Oh, my neighbor caught a fish, I will, do you like, I will serve it to you as sashimi." ; She brought in this huge platter of sashimi. I' ; m a vegetarian, my daughter does not care for sashimi, so we just sort of looked at, at my partner, Randy, and said " ; You gotta do us proud." ; So he ate the whole thing of sashimi, the entire big tuna that was on this platter! EL: He took one for the team. BH: He did. I mean he loves sashimi, but there was enough for five people. (laughs) EL: So I think, I would like to know, what you think I should be asking about the Sansei experience in Chicago? BH: Um, what should you be asking about it? It' ; s pretty great I think. I think there was a lot of opportunities in the, amongst the different groups and activities. So the MBT I think had the Boy Scouts, and the Drum and Bugle Corps, and then there was the Inter-church volleyball league. And, I, I feel like, and the, and Senn High School I think a lot of Japanese Americans were at Senn High School. There was also a group who were in Hyde Park, then they moved up to the North side too. But then, a lot of people started moving out to the suburbs, as I got, by the time they were getting out of, getting into college. I think a lot of families were moving out. But for a while there, it was pretty, I think it was a pretty nice, connected community. As I said earlier, you can meet somebody and they' ; d say, you' ; d say your name, they' ; d say, " ; Oh, Hikawa!" ; or whatever their name might be. They' ; d know somebody, or they knew of you or-- So there was a lot of connection, there were the three grocery store-- the three stores on the Belmont-Clark intersection, and so we used to always go to York Foods, or Toguri' ; s, or-- Star Market, yes, Star Market I believe the owner went to our church even. So, and those communities were big, as I said we had a huge Sunday School, there must have been 300, 500 members? Not like now, where we have 50, maybe? Because, our Nisei, we used to have a Nisei congregation, they' ; re all gone. Now we have the Nisei, and very few of them left. My mom is a hundred, but she lives with my sister, wherever my sister goes. So, she' ; s not part of that community anymore, most of ' ; em, a lot of ' ; em have left, and a lot of them have died. So that' ; s pretty sad. And I guess I think, you grew up on the East Coast, but you didn' ; t know a Japanese American community, my guess is. EL: No, I didn' ; t. BH: But even if you had, I wonder if there were one. Even for my daughter' ; s age, for the Yonsei. Here, this far removed from the West Coast. West Coast, I don' ; t, there' ; s, it' ; s certainly not as much solidarity to that group as there was when I was growing up, when it was definitely-- a lot of my, the people I know like at my church, other Sansei, their friends are all other Sansei. They have lots of Sansei friends, so-- And certainly, as I said, my parent' ; s group of friends was very connected. And I think that' ; s really nice to have had that. So I feel sorry for other communities that weren' ; t as rich perhaps as the one in Chicago. My guess is if you lived out in a smaller town or some other state it wasn' ; t that. So I' ; m, I' ; m grateful for that. EL: Do you think there' ; s anything that the Japanese American community in Chicago now could or should be doing that would help strengthen the sense of community or connectedness between us? BH: No, I' ; m afraid I feel like it' ; s-- not disintegrated, but it' ; s been stretched pretty thin maybe. I- more people moving out to more suburbs. A lot of the Sansei I know, their kids don' ; t live here, they' ; ve all moved away. That' ; s just the way of the world we' ; re a much more mobile society that way people move away they don' ; t stay as my parents' ; generation did and raising their families in one place. So I don' ; t, I, I wouldn' ; t, I can' ; t think of anything. I know that coming here to the JASC, I come for taiko drumming lessons here, and I' ; m sort of impressed that the other people in the group, some of whom are also Sansei, do speak some Japanese. And the offerings here are a lot for Japanese people who have, there' ; s, there is that community here because-- mostly in the north suburbs a lot of corporations I think brought Japanese executives in, people from Japan. So there' ; s a " ; Japanese-Japanese ' ; ' ; community that exists of which I know absolutely nothing, I' ; m not in touch with them. But I do have a friend from Berlin who is from Japan, so when she comes-- her husband is from Chicago, so when she comes, they come to Chicago, she plays in a koto group out in Arlington Heights or someplace and is-- And since she speaks Japanese, she' ; s in touch with that group but as a Japanese American, I' ; m not. Oops, I think I touched my mic. So I, I wish I could a- think of something, but I, I don' ; t know. EL: And for your grandchildren, Chelsea mentioned that her spouse is not Japanese American, so that would make your grandchildren one quarter Japanese American. BH: She calls them " ; quapa" ; . Quapa, like half is hapa, and then quapa. (laughs) EL: What do you do as a grandparent to, to help them understand that piece of their diverse heritage and-- BH: Well, I don' ; t think I do anything particular. But I do know that for example, at my younger grandson' ; s nursery school last year, Chelsea offered to do a unit on Japan with the four-year-olds, or three-- no they were three-year-olds. And she said, " ; Do you want to help?" ; So I went, and we read a Japanese fairytale, and she' ; d created an art project with some watercolor on paper or something like that, making a, a fish kite or some Japanese-y kind of thing. So, I did that, I don' ; t know how connected they feel to it, but it' ; s, it' ; s a w-, it' ; s something that keeps it alive I think. EL: Is there anything, now that she' ; s not in the room, that you would like to ask Chelsea that you' ; ve never really felt you could or never had the opportunity to? BH: No not really, I pretty much would ask her whatever I want to if I feel like it! (laughs) EL: And, as we wrap up here I' ; m, I would love to know what motivated you to participate in the oral history project? BH: A couple of things. There was an exhibit not too long ago, at, I can' ; t remember the name of the gallery, but over on Fullerton and Halsted. And I went to that and they-- it was about the internment. And they showed some films, several films. And then I saw some people I knew. And often I' ; ll see films, or see exhibits even say, " ; This soldier from the 442nd" ; and it' ; d be like, " ; Oh it' ; s Sats Tanakatsubo" ; or some family I know, and I always feel like, " ; Well, why isn' ; t my family up there?" ; And then I thought, " ; Well, if I don' ; t do it nobody' ; s going to do it." ; So when I saw the thing that said, " ; Do you want to do an oral history project?" ; I thought, oh, I should do one. I' ; m about 10 years too late, but I should do it, so, that' ; s why I' ; m doing it. (laughs) EL: It' ; s never too late! And I' ; m very grateful for your participation. I think to close things out here, I' ; ll ask you what, what would you like future generations to know about you and your family? BH: Oh, hmm I just thought of something I wanted to say, and then let me think about that question. EL: Okay. BH: Which is, I remember that my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, did go back to Japan for a visit a couple of times. And they said, the thing they said was, everybody knew they were American-- by their shoes. It was the funniest thing, because obviously they were J-Japanese, they spoke J-Japanese, she said, but people would look at their shoes, and know that they weren' ; t Japanese. Why? Because our shoes were better? I' ; m not, I don' ; t know the answer to that. --Okay so now your question about is there anything I' ; d like-- EL: What would you most like future generations to know about you or your family? BH: Oh, hmm. About me and my family. EL: What would you like your legacy to be? BH: Oh I don' ; t know, that we, that we were part of the human race and tried to do our best to, to promote justice, and make the world better for some people? I guess? EL: I think that' ; s a lovely sentiment. I think we' ; ll end there so thank you very much. BH: Thank you. (smiles) Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HikawaBarbara20210623.xml HikawaBarbara20210623.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
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Hikawa, Barbara and Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa (6/23/2021)
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Barbara (Sunnie) Hikawa is a sansei born in Chicago in 1949, whose family has a rich history and strong roots in the local Japanese American community. In this interview, she is joined by her daughter Chelsea Dolinar-Hikawa, a yonsei hapa who was also raised in the Chicago Japanese American community, particularly the Japanese American church community. During World War II, Sunnie and Chelsea’s family members were interned at Tule Lake. After the war, Sunnie’s parents moved to different areas of the Midwest but eventually settled in Chicago, where Sunnie’s father went to law school, and where they raised their family. Sunnie’s paternal grandmother ran a boarding house on LaSalle Street, providing temporary housing for many nisei resettlers. Both Sunnie and Chelsea are involved in their church as the current and past choir directors, and talk about how their experiences with church informed their experience with the JA community. They share their experiences with racism, thoughts about their upbringing, and the differences between generations and how Japanese culture is shared and maintained across them.
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2021-06-23
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video
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Series: Oral History Project