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Dublin Core
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Kuramitsu, Keilyn
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hogan, Hannah
Interview Keyword
Denver
Colorado
Nisei
Grocer
Laundry
Los Angeles
Mt. Whitney
Los Angeles Junior College
Santa Anita
Granada
Amache
American Friends Service
National Japanese American Student Relocation Council
Baker University
Woodlawn
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/16/2017 Hogan, Hannah (11/16/2017) 1:04:06 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Denver Colorado Nisei Grocer Laundry Los Angeles Mt. Whitney Los Angeles Junior College Santa Anita Granada Amache American Friends Service National Japanese American Student Relocation Council Baker University Woodlawn Hogan, Hannah Kuramitsu, Keilyn video 0 https://vimeo.com/303603591 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/303603591?h=86e9ddb6f2" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Hannah Hogan is a second generation (Nisei) Japanese American. In this interview, she shares memories of her early life in Denver and Los Angeles and describes the atmosphere of tense anxiety in the Los Angeles Japanese American community after Pearl Harbor. She describes having to leave school when her family's financial assets were frozen, being fired from her job at the Department of Motor Vehicles, the FBI taking male community leaders into custody, and the rush to sell or store personal possessions. She also describes the difficult conditions she experienced at Santa Anita and Amache, her early departure to attend college in Kansas, and the death of her father from illness in camp. She recounts her family's reasons for resettling in Chicago and some of the housing, work, and educational experiences of the early resettlement period. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] KeilynKuramitsu: 00:00:00 You are Hannah Hogan? Hannah Hogan: 00:00:02 Yes. KK: 00:00:04 Where were you born and raised? HH: 00:00:06 In Denver, Colorado. KK: 00:00:10 What was it like growing up in Denver, Colorado? HH: 00:00:12 Oh, it was so much fun. I remember playing in the alley. And last May, my daughter and her husband and two grandsons, we took a trip to Amache with a pilgrimage. So we stopped in Denver. I wanted to see this spot where my parents who proprietors of Togo Laundry and Grocery Store. So I wanted to see where they, where their property was. It was at 20th and Larmor and it' ; s today the Tri-state/Denver Buddhist Temple. And that neighborhood was as I just remember, Japanese American community was there. And around the corner was my friend. In fact, she was my first friend Mary Ariki and her father owned a Togo factory there, KK: 00:01:21 Can you tell me about your parents? HH: 00:01:23 Well, my father and mother both are from Ishikawa-ken, that' ; s on the Sea of Japan. He came very early. I think it was 19, oh 1895. And my mother in 1907. They were married in San Francisco. So he worked as a bank clerk, I heard. And then they used to call them " ; school boys." ; And one story I remember, he said he was in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, so that was interesting. And interesting enough, in 1933 in Los Angeles, I was, I remember the 1933 earthquake. So that, all the schools were because of faulty construction, they really were damaged. So we lived in tents for about a year, I think. I mean, we went to school in tents. But anyway, it was interesting that my father had experienced an earthquake and I had also. My mother, of course, she worked at the laundry and, and worked relentlessly, really so hard, and never complained. And, and you know, she was only in her late twenties or -- to own a grocery store and a laundry -- I thought it was very remarkable. Yeah. KK: 00:03:08 What brought your parents to the United States from Japan? HH: 00:03:13 I really don' ; t know what. I just know she was an only child and, oh, she came with some relatives who were in San Francisco and they had an art studio or what do you call it? Japanese ceramics that they sold. And that' ; s the only reason why, and then, of course, to marry my father. I don' ; t know whether she' ; s a picture bride or what, but anyway. KK: 00:03:51 Do you know how they met? How your parents met? HH: 00:03:54 No, I don' ; t know how they met, but they were from the same " ; ken," ; you know, in Japan. And they were probably knew, families knew each other, right. Uh hm. KK: 00:04:07 And how do they make their way from San Francisco all the way to Denver. HH: 00:04:12 Probably on a train. I don' ; t know. KK: 00:04:19 I mean like what brought them-- HH: 00:04:20 ' ; Cause I was born there. I was born in, in Denver. Only my oldest sister, she was born in San Francisco and then I really don' ; t know. You know, why they went to Denver? Yeah. KK: 00:04:36 So in Denver, did your mom, for example, own a laundry facility there? HH: 00:04:42 No, I don' ; t know how they happened to open up a laundry and a grocery store. That was interesting to see. And, of course, they knew no, any English so, and I' ; m sure they didn' ; t know anything about laundries or grocery stores. But the one, the two people I remember was the Chinese young man who worked the ironing and he still had a pigtail, you know. And, and I don' ; t know what you call do, you know, what' ; you call those caps? And he had a dress. I don' ; t, they don' ; t call it a dress, a gown. And then there was a African American lady, she was, she' ; s the one who pressed the clothes. So that was interesting. KK: 00:05:35 Yeah. I think you talk about how growing up in Denver. Was it a very diverse community there? HH: 00:05:45 Well, just, that' ; s all I remember. We just were with the Japanese Americans. There was down the street, there was one girl I think I used to play with and she Caucasian. But my friends were at the church and I have a picture of the Sunday school, and it' ; s all Japanese. So I think that community was very tight at that time. And I know our doctors were all Japanese -- dentist and one of my sister' ; s piano teachers, she was Japanese. So I think they probably stayed together. KK: 00:06:33 Okay. Do you have any, what are some of your fondest childhood memories of that time? HH: 00:06:41 Well, one thing, and I was only about four years old and I sang at the Tabernacle, there' ; s a Denver Tabernacle and I think it was a Christmas program. And, oh, I can' ; t even believe that I was up there on the stage singing at the, and that, that was, that was, and I guess it' ; s just, ' ; cause nobody else was really musical. So, and I did keep that particular interest the rest of my life. So, but I forgot the last words of the song and that, that' ; s, I think that' ; s what I remember that I hadn' ; t been able to finish the song. KK: 00:07:34 You were four years old? HH: 00:07:37 I was four or five. I think so. KK: 00:07:41 What was the song? HH: 00:07:41 Well, it was about, I can' ; t sing it now, but I can tell you the words. It was, " ; when my mom was busy, all the long, long day, then I' ; ll take my dolly Little Anna May. And I' ; ll tell her stories of the Christ child dear." ; And then I think it was, " ; just like my mommy sang to me all year." ; I don' ; t know. My daughter was trying to look it up on Google, but we couldn' ; t find it. [laughs] KK: 00:08:12 You have a great memory. My goodness. That' ; s from when you were four? HH: 00:08:16 Four or five. I think I was, yeah. But I can just see myself on the stage of this tabernacle and we forgot to look for that particular institution when we were in Denver. KK: 00:08:35 Did you have any siblings? HH: 00:08:39 I had an older sister I mentioned was born in San Francisco and that was in 1910. And then I had a sister Rose who was born in Denver when we first moved to Denver in 19 must' ; ve been 1912 or what. And then I, then there were a big span between my oldest sister and then I, and then I have a younger sister, Esther, and then a brother Daniel. He' ; s no longer with us. And Ben is the youngest. So there were six, six of us. Three are still alive. KK: 00:09:19 What was it like having sisters who were so much older than yourself? HH: 00:09:26 Well, my sister actually because my mother was so busy, Rose was more like a mother ' ; cause she really took over and she was like 10 years older. But she really, like I say, was in charge of our household activities and taking care of us, you know, and all the other chores that we had to do. KK: 00:09:54 Were you close with your siblings? HH: 00:09:56 Yes. Yes. We were all very close. Right. KK: 00:09:58 Close knit family? HH: 00:10:01 Yes. Right. KK: 00:10:03 And then how about your parents? What was your relationship like with your parents? HH: 00:10:08 Well, my father was always working, so I just, the only thing that I remember, he just said, " ; be American" ; and " ; benkyo shite." ; Do you know what that is? KK: 00:10:24 " ; Study hard." ; HH: 00:10:26 Right. So those are the two things I remember that he just said to " ; be American." ; And then the one thing he always put out the American flag, every holiday. And where did he get that idea? It' ; s, it' ; s really interesting again. Yeah. KK: 00:10:50 Growing up, were you aware of having a Japanese American identity? HH: 00:10:57 No, not really. No. It' ; s when we lived in, we lived in Denver and it was all Japanese, but you know, I was a preschooler and, and I didn' ; t, we didn' ; t even think about anything like that. And then when we went to Los Angeles, we lived in an African American neighborhood and now I know that it was because of restrictied covenants. But we were, as I mentioned, our next door neighbor, she was African American. Her name was Norma Smith. And she really was such a significant, had a significant impact on our lives because she taught my sisters how to cook southern cuisine and play bridge. And she taught me how to iron a man' ; s shirt and planting the garden. And then, of course, her home was just velvet drapes and curtains. I' ; d never seen, you know, lovely curtains and furniture, and appliances, and a washing machine. We didn' ; t even have a bath tub or whatever when we lived in Denver ' ; cause we lived behind the store. So I think we were just in one of these wooden tubs or whatever. But anyway, she was just such a good friend. And there was, I had many, many African American friends and we all, there was, there was no racial discrimination in terms of, you know, play mates or whatever in our, and like I say, all our neighbors and my sisters, they' ; re good friends were African Americans. And then we lived in, at the corner was our church, the Methodist, Centenary Methodist church was down the street. So like I say, most of the community was, it' ; s just when we went to school, that' ; s when we met our Caucasian friends and they were all fine. KK: 00:13:13 So you can' ; t remember facing discrimination growing up? HH: 00:13:17 No, not not growing up. As you know, before, before the war, of course, after when Pearl Harbor came, then I thought, " ; What' ; s going on?" ; Right. KK: 00:13:30 So Pearl Harbor happened and did things change for you? HH: 00:13:35 Yes, because of course, I didn' ; t even know her Pearl Harbor was number one. And I had, wasn' ; t interested in what was really going on. It' ; s high school and we' ; re having so much fun, you know, with all our friends. And I was in all kinds of organizations and, and my favorite subjects were in journalism for the newspaper. And then this school where I attended had a pipe organ and it was a technical school and that really was one of the main activities, you know, of my high school was with the junior organist skills and the poly optimists. Those-- KK: 00:14:31 So you' ; re born in Denver. How old were you when your family moved to Los Angeles? HH: 00:14:38 Let' ; s see, it' ; s 1920 just before the crash. 1929 was the crash. So I was, I was six, I think, when we went there. Yeah. Right. KK: 00:14:54 So then you moved to Los Angeles and that' ; s where you' ; re living when Pearl Harbor happened in ' ; 41-- HH: 00:15:02 Yes. KK: 00:15:03 And if you were born in ' ; 22 and Pearl Harbor is in ' ; 41. You were 19? HH: 00:15:09 Yeah, I think so. Right. KK: 00:15:11 Were you in school at the time? What were you doing? HH: 00:15:16 Yeah, I was at Los Angeles Junior College. I was a business major at the time. And junior college really was one of my eventful educational experiences mainly because professor of English, he was the chairman of the department, he would invite the Nisei on these camping trips. And that' ; s when, when I, I mentioned Mount Whitney, when I was able to climb up Whitney. I can' ; t believe it. KK: 00:15:57 Can you tell me more about that? HH: 00:15:59 Well, it was August 28, 1941. In fact, Eric is the one who said, why don' ; t you look it up and find out? Because I wanted to see if there was really a document. And so I called this Professor Richardson' ; s son and his, his wife and she went to the library at Berkeley and she found the original, the um, see what, Sierra Club book that we signed our names in. And so she sent, she sent it through the email. So I saw my name on there and the date. That' ; s how I knew the dates specifically and it, and he did write a book about it. And I just remember one thing, when we got, coming back and we got to camp, his wife didn' ; t go, she was in the camp below and I ate ten pancakes. That' ; s all. I haven' ; t eaten 10, I can' ; t even eat one pancake today. But anyway, it was a wonderful experience. KK: 00:17:09 So what organization did you go with? HH: 00:17:12 Well, he called it, actually, he had a group called the Jabberwocky, which was just from Alice in Wonderland. And it was mainly for reading and enjoyment. But then he noticed that the Nisei were all kind of segregated on their own. And he was, he was concerned that, I guess, he knew what was going on because there was, the war was in Europe. And he was kind of concerned, they wanted us to broaden our, our relationships with other people. And so he did start the student Nisei Club and that that' ; s, and so he would, we would have fun, but he would always have all these books that introduced us to what was going on in the world. And before that, I didn' ; t pay any attention to that. So that' ; s how I, he had us stimulation, you know, to go beyond our Little Tokyo world or whatever. KK: 00:18:26 So you did Whitney on August 28, 1941? HH: 00:18:28 Right. Yes KK: 00:18:32 And then you' ; re studying business in a junior college. Do you remember the name of your the junior college? HH: 00:18:38 it was Los Angeles Junior College. HH: 00:18:43 Los Angeles Junior College. OK. And you' ; re there when Pearl Harbor happened on December 7th. HH: 00:18:47 Right. Right. KK: 00:18:48 Were you in your first year? Were you a freshman? HH: 00:18:50 Second year. I was to graduate in January, I think,. KK: 00:18:53 Oh, wow. HH: 00:18:54 So I didn' ; t. And I did receive, they did send me a graduation diploma. It don' ; t, not just recently, but maybe about five years ago I did get a, they sent me a diploma. KK: 00:19:10 Finally. HH: 00:19:11 Yes, [laughs] right. KK: 00:19:13 So what happened, like how did things change for you after Pearl Harbor as a Japanese American woman living in Los Angeles? HH: 00:19:26 Well, I have to, right. Immediately I had to leave, leave the school because they froze, oh, they froze all our parents bank account. So to help with the financial situation, then I was able to get a job with the Department of Motor Vehicles doing typing license plates. License, um, well, what do you, what do you call it today? KK: 00:20:09 Is it registration? HH: 00:20:10 You know, your, your, um, your license. I don' ; t know what you call it today. KK: 00:20:30 You said, yeah, you heard that clerk typist at the State Department of Motor Vehicles. HH: 00:20:39 Right, yeah. KK: 00:20:39 When did you start working there? I' ; m sorry, I' ; ll give you a second. HH: 00:20:48 Oh, right after Pearl Harbor, I think. I, I, withdrew from, from my classes. So then I was there until April, April of ' ; 42, and then I was fired. And that was kind of a shock. KK: 00:21:12 So, why, how did they tell you you were fired and what was their reason? HH: 00:21:17 Oh, this nice young lady came around and gave us a pink slip and just said, " ; You' ; re fired." ; And that' ; s all I remember until years later, I received all these letters from a, Patrick Johnson who was an assemblyman in the legislature of California and he wished to pass, introduce a bill, I think. I think, I remember it was Assembly Bill 1710, and that would promote a compensation for illegally firing of Japanese Americans. There was about 300, I think altogether and it took a long time for them to get through, but I' ; m really thankful for his association with that project. Yeah. KK: 00:22:28 Was there a huge outcry when you had all of these people just fired and did people challenge anything? HH: 00:22:36 I don' ; t remember anything. I just remember we were fired and that was it. And of course we went to, about three weeks later we had to go to Santa Anita. So everything was kind of a shock, I think, you know, it happened so fast and we just have to accept it. What else was there? I wasn' ; t like Fred Korematsu who, you know, he was so brave to go ahead and do what he did. KK: 00:23:10 So the forced removal for your family, that was in April of 1942? HH: 00:23:16 Yes. KK: 00:23:19 Did you, was it unexpected or had you heard of other Japanese American families being removed from other areas? HH: 00:23:26 Well, December 7th, the minister, Japanese, and our Japanese school teacher and he was a minister and his wife, the FBI came. They lived right in front of, the house in front of us and they came and just hauled them away. I didn' ; t know where they were going. And my sister Rose was close to Edmond. He contacted her and said, " ; Oh, , please bring me my shoes and please go look in my desk drawer and bring me so much money and bring me the slippers for my wife." ; And so it was very sad. And then we had telephone calls, different neighbors being picked up and they were mainly people who were like, the one fellow was just the treasurer of the, of the church there. And so it was very, very anxiety, an anxiety period at the time. Right. KK: 00:24:36 So how did your siblings and your parents react? Were they terrified at maybe being picked out? HH: 00:24:44 Oh my father was, you know, he' ; s a, so he, I remember he packed a little suitcase and had it by the door and then I said they' ; re not going to pick you up, ' ; cause he, he was, he was a gardener. They picked up most all the people that are like, one of my friends, her father was head of an insurance company and they took him and the people that worked in the, all the, what' ; d they call it. And in Japanese Town in the fruit market, they were, they were, so there are so many of the people that are, their fathers were taken. It was very, very sad. KK: 00:25:31 How did you guys hear about the forced removal? Were there signs posted or how did you know-- HH: 00:25:39 We had that sign you have out there, that was on the telephone post to tell us where to go and when to go. And so we just had to get ready and pack. And so the only thing I remember is, which was important to me was, my sister had worked so hard and bought me this piano and that, I don' ; t know where it went. But anyway, someone took that. But mostly I remembered this man coming down the street and trying to, you know, pick up whatever was out there. Some people had them on the lawn and they just went for like 50 cents or I dunno, a dollar. That it was really-- But everybody just, what could we do? You know, it was just such a frantic time. KK: 00:26:38 How much time did your family have? HH: 00:26:41 Well, we just had, well, February was when the 9066 bill, you know, what do they call it? KK: 00:26:52 Executive Order HH: 00:26:52 Executive Order 9066 and then we may, may, so we had three months. But one of my friends, she lived in Terminal Island, so they just had like 48 hours. KK: 00:27:10 What was it like for you to have to leave your home and your life behind to face such an unknown future? HH: 00:27:17 Well, you know, a lot of that is just sort of blurred and we just like in a daze and we have to go. So we just packed our clothes and whatever, like, well, we were just asked, we could just take one bag anyway, so. And then some of the things, our next door neighbor Mrs. Smith, she ,much of our, not, maybe furniture, too. She kept in her garage and I don' ; t know where. My sister took care of much of that. But it, it was just a frenzied time. That' ; s all I remember. KK: 00:28:05 So you had a neighbor look after your belongings when you guys left? HH: 00:28:09 The next door neighbor that I mentioned. Yes, she did. KK: 00:28:13 Did, was your family able to somehow not be financially completely financially destitute because of this kind of chaos? They tried to sell everything, like were they able to maintain something of a profit? HH: 00:28:33 No, not at all. We just had to go in to Santa Anita. That was the first place that we were asked to go. Yeah. KK: 00:28:50 So Santa Anita is the race track-- HH: 00:28:53 in Arcadia, California. KK: 00:28:58 What was Santa Anita like? HH: 00:29:01 Well, they go racetrack and I didn' ; t even hear of it. I didn' ; t even know about racetracks then. But the horse stable, well, one of my friends, she lived in the horse stable but we were way at the end ' ; cause I think we were one of the last streets to, to go. And so we lived in " ; Y. It was like A-B-C-D.-E-F, so " ; Y" ; was at the end of the--. It might be like Colorado Boulevard. It' ; s, are you familiar with Arcadia? Oh, you' ; re not from the West Coast, okay. Right. But anyway, it' ; s at the end, the end of the racetrack. That' ; s where they put ius you know, barracks there. And the only thing, I just remember one, there was a riot and I' ; m not sure what it was. I think it was the,, someone just said, " ; Oh, there was a Korean, a spy." ; But I, I don' ; t know but that was probably just rumor, whatever. But I think maybe they had the, you know, they were doing those nets -- camouflage nets, and I think they, they were striking for better food and hours, and whatever. But the only thing I remember is all of these soldiers coming through the, going up and down and taking our like knitting needles and knives. HH: 00:30:54 Oh. And I did go through, I was doing a journal and someone said, " ; Oh, you better cross out all the names you have on there." ; So I remember going through that journal and just crossing out names of people that I, just day to day, whatever, what' ; s going on. I was just making an account of it. HH: 00:31:17 But the happy part was that I did work in the milk station with my friend Kiku Fukuyama. And we were milk station mates there and that was enjoyable part of it. And then, of course, the other thing was the food was terrible and people were always sick and I really was very sick from all of that. So whatever contamination from the, from the food, because I' ; m sure the water system wasn' ; t the best of all because they just, they just built it, in what, a couple of months. Right there on the racetrack. KK: 00:32:00 What kind of food were you eating? HH: 00:32:05 I just don' ; t remember. I just know it was bad. [laughs] It was awful. It' ; s mostly starch. Oh, one thing I do remember, they thought because we were Japanese that we liked rice. Yeah, we do like rice, but they just gave us rice pudding. And it was just, they must' ; ve just made it with water and rice and a little bit, not sugar probably ' ; cause it was rationed and NOBODY ate it. I could remember it because we never, I never even was familiar with rice pudding, you know, so. But people would go to, the young kids would go to different, there are about six, mess halls and so they would, they would know what was the good one and go to the right one, you know, whatever. That, that I remember. And I guess maybe the quote " ; better cooks" ; were over there, whatever. KK: 00:33:04 I' ; m wondering, how did you know what to pack? How did you decide what you wanted to bring with you? HH: 00:33:09 I don' ; t remember--what. KK: 00:33:14 Do you remember if it was difficult for you at all? Trying to figure out what to bring? Was it an easy process? Difficult? HH: 00:33:21 No, I really don' ; t remember. I' ; ve marvel that we packed whatever in one bag. So I really don' ; t remember what we took with us. KK: 00:33:37 So after living in Santa Anita for a few months, you then went to Granada, Amache in Colorado, It' ; s interesting that you were born there and lived there and then they send you back. HH: 00:33:57 Right, right. Yes. [laughs] And of course this wasn' ; t Denver. It was southeastern, southeastern Colorado, which was so cold. I think it was below zero during the winter and thunderstorms. And the sand was the worst. I had never seen sand. And it would blow and then the rain would come and it would plaster all the sand right on the windows and you couldn' ; t see out. And that was really just so uncomfortable. Yeah. KK: 00:34:34 So what were some of the worst aspects of living in camp there? Obviously the weather is terrible, HH: 00:34:42 Right. But I think it was just the, the everyday, going to the-- Well the showers were all just all one, you know, without any partitions or whatever. Everybody would try to go at night, but then people, you know, ' ; cause they didn' ; t want to go during the day to be seen, but then people were going at night and, you know, just sort of, I think I just kind of blocked all of that out. And my father did work cleaning the latrines though. That' ; s all I remember. That that was his job. KK: 00:35:24 Are there any other specific stories or descriptions you have about living at Amache? HH: 00:35:31 Well, I think that there were two things that I' ; d never done before, of course. And one was I volunteered to be the secretary for the block manager. Of course, they' ; re all Issei. And so somehow I translated the Japanese into English and I still do have the, that notebook that I wrote all the minutes in there. And then the other was I thought, well, I' ; d love to get a job. And there was an opening for a secretary in the home economics department. So I worked as a secretary there and the director was Mrs. Moore and she was just so lively and friendly and she really put a little bit more light in our lives really. And one of the things that every call that was so much fun was that when she somehow said, " ; Oh, you could go to Lamar and go to the theater to see " ; Gone with the Wind." ; Do you know " ; Gone with the Wind" ; with Clark Gable? HH: 00:36:57 So when we went there in May, I wanted to see the theater and we did try and it' ; s still there. Yeah, theater is there. And then she did, when I was going to leave the camp, she took me to the dry goods store there, too. She said chose any dress you' ; d like. So of course, of course I chose the most expensive one, which is like $25, which is a lot then, and I still can see it today. It was a two piece plaid real really, ' ; cause I didn' ; t have any clothes, you know, decent enough to go to school. And then, um, oh yeah, those were the two things. I think that she really helped to me keep my, what is it, sense of depression, you know. KK: 00:38:00 She helped with morale, maybe? HH: 00:38:04 Right. Yes. KK: 00:38:06 What was her connection to the camp? Was she the supervisor for the home economics department? Was she hired from the, by the military? HH: 00:38:18 I don' ; t know what that was. KK: 00:38:18 Was she Japanese American? HH: 00:38:22 No, I guess each state had its own director of the, of the center. And because the teachers were all from Colorado, you know, some of the Nisei were there, but then they had hired teachers from, who came to the, to the school. Yeah. KK: 00:38:55 And then you, yourself, you worked as a teacher, right? For Shizu Fukuyama? HH: 00:39:01 Oh, it' ; s three nights a week. I would go over and she' ; s just, lived two units down. And she wanted to keep in touch with her son and he was like, he was one of the first ones to volunteer for the Army service. So she didn' ; t know how to type. So I taught her to type and then brush up on her English so she could send letters to, you know. And her daughter Fumi did write a book or put together all the letters that he sent her throughout his, when he was in Camp Savage. And then then he was in military MIS, but she was determined because she said, " ; I just have to keep in touch with my son" ; so she would, you know. And one of the letters, it' ; s so interesting, she' ; s to him, she had typed, you know, " ; A-S -D-F" ; and said here' ; s my typing lesson. And she wrote, sent that letter to him and I, I have that. KK: 00:40:20 So you, when did you leave camp? HH: 00:40:26 I left in May ' ; 43 to attend school. That the American Friends Service Committee and the Japanese, no, the American Service Committee and the Nisei Student Relocation Council formed, monetary tuition scholarships so we could attend school. And primarily the schools that were affiliated with the churches accepted the Nisei, yeah. HH: 00:41:01 So I was able to go to Kansas, Baker University, which is near Topeka. And again, everything was kind of isolated and my roommates were just, and their families were all so kind to me so I had no problems. Just the one thing when I was waiting on the um, the Goat the day, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a bus or train from Colorado to Kansas and I was sitting on the platform. And the lady sitting next to me and she just said, " ; Are you Indian?" ; I didn' ; t know what she was talking about, but I guess there' ; s a, there was a school in Lawrence, which was the all-Indian school for Indian children. And I didn' ; t even think about segregation or anything at that time. And then there was a sign that said " ; Colored" ; and " ; White" ; and again I didn' ; t know what that was. And it was an indication of the toilet facilities. And like I say, I don' ; t remember which one I went into though. So that was my first experience of some kind of discrimination at the time. KK: 00:42:28 Um, your father, you' ; re studying in Kansas, you' ; re studying sociology, economics, and things like that? HH: 00:42:36 Sociology was what I, that was my, and, and home economics. I think those two. Right. And the thing is, when I was ready to graduate, that Mrs. Hedrick, the family that I had stayed with the first semester. " ; What are you going to do?" ; " ; I don' ; t know. I guess I will be a social worker." ; " ; Oh, you can' ; t." ; And you' ; re going to have to have a Master' ; s. So she said, why didn' ; t you take education courses? So I stayed another semester so that I could take more courses to meet the educa-- certification requirement. HH: 00:43:21 But, so in October, what happened to your father at the end of 1943? HH: 00:43:30 Oh, let' ; s see. I was only at school about a month and then he, he, he unfortunately, he had rectal cancer and he died in Amache. So I was, of course I went to the funeral, but I wasn' ; t able to return any other time. That was the only time. That' ; s the reason why I had to spend all my holidays for the two and a half years with families of my roommates. And of course everyone was really very supportive and I was very grateful that, that I had someplace to go because I couldn' ; t go back to camp or to the internment center. KK: 00:44:15 So in the two and a half year, did you see your mother or your sibllings at all? HH: 00:44:20 No. No, I didn' ; t get to see any of them. KK: 00:44:24 Was it difficult for you? HH: 00:44:26 Well, yes, but, you know, I was so busy because I was working full time and taking a whole load so I didn' ; t really have time to worry about, I guess, just trying to get an education and pay for my schooling. But, but like I say, if it weren' ; t for my roommates inviting me to their homes, you know, I probably would have really been quite depressed about it, you know. KK: 00:45:01 How... Go ahead. Sorry I' ; m making you talk so much. HH: 00:45:02 [Laughs and takes another drink of water.] KK: 00:45:02 I' ; m curious about how your, I' ; m wondering how your father' ; s death affected you and the rest of your family? HH: 00:45:24 Well, you know, it' ; s during the war and everything was just, we didn' ; t know what was going to happen. And, of course, I had two older sisters who were, especially Rose, she really was like the head of the house and she really did a lot to help us keep going and it, it was hard for my mother, you know. Right. KK: 00:46:00 We hear a lot of stories about the inadequate medical facilities that the camps had. Do you know if, if that had anything to do with your father' ; s passing away? HH: 00:46:16 Well, my sister worked. She was a medical secretary in Santa Anita and in Amache so she did know what was, probably had some inkling as to what was going on. She said that he was diagnosed with tuberculosis. That was the first, and so that might' ; ve been, you know, I' ; m sure there were many other people who, who did experience a similar kind of-- KK: 00:46:56 Can you remember anything else your sister might' ; ve mentioned to you about what the medical facilities there were like? What the environment was like to work in? HH: 00:47:07 I just remember she really enjoyed it. I mean working with the with the doctors and she was able to continue that when we went to Chicago and she did. I think the experience in camp did help her to, for her secretarial, medical secretary position in Chicago at Saint Luke' ; s Hospital. Then she, she was always very positive about the, there many, I just remember all the Nisei doctors that were there. She would talk about them. KK: 00:47:54 How did your family end up in Chicago? HH: 00:48:00 I think it was just jobs were announced, openings were quite available and so she did say, " ; Well, let' ; s go to Chicago." ; And my other sister was married and she also went to Chicago and it was very, a welcoming city. There was a hostel here and housing, you know, opportunities for housing. And I think that was just, and we didn' ; t have anything to go back to in LA because we didn' ; t, we just rented, rented a house. KK: 00:48:52 Did you ever keep in touch with, was it Mrs. Smith you neighbor who had kind of stored your belongings, HH: 00:49:01 Right. Oh yes. She, she kept in touch with us all throughout the war and, and then we did receive some of our things that she had taken care of. KK: 00:49:18 Okay. We' ; re almost done. I' ; m so sorry this is going so long, but I believe your story is super fascinating. Um, did you reunite with your family in Chicago from Kansas? HH: 00:49:30 Yes, I did. I didn' ; t come until, I think it was January or February ' ; 46 and then I was really sick when I came and partly was from the contamination of the foods, I think from the, from the living conditions in the camp. So I did have a, so I was really very sick and tired, too, from working and taking courses so. KK: 00:50:04 Okay. So even, you know, years after you left the camp, you were still, your health was still being effective because of the conditions? HH: 00:50:13 Right. Yes. KK: 00:50:18 Can you tell me about living in Chicago? We can end talking about your life in Chicago. So resettlement in the city. Um, yeah. What it like first coming here and trying to establish a home? HH: 00:50:30 Well, mainly, housing was such a difficult, a difficult problem because it was still restrictive housing and we just lived in Woodlawn and the building where we lived and it was all the owners, whoever owned the building had cut them up into like three families. So we all shared one little old dinky, I don' ; t know if you even call it a bathroom, I just couldn' ; t see , uh, how. Bathtub and a toilet was just all dread (?) and no light. The light bulbs were just, you know just kind of dangling. And it was quite uncomfortable and that' ; s where we had a, there was a fire and kids were playing with matches and we just had two rooms. So there was like five or six of us and just a kitchen and bedroom (unclear). And my mother had things stored under the bed. That' ; s how much much of our things were burned in the fire. So that, that, that was very uncomfortable. But it took so long just to find decent, decent housing. That was the hardest thing. But jobs were very plentiful. So that was a plus. KK: 00:52:05 What did you do once you came to Chicago? HH: 00:52:11 I had to, continue education classes ' ; cause Chicago their certification was a little bit, I guess you' ; d call it, they required more classes than the Kansas certification. So I had to go to school and take some more classes, teachers college and then, then I was able to do a child care program at night at the Institute for Psychoanalysis. And finally I did, was able to teach in the City Colleges of Chicago training, training teachers for early childhood. But before that I worked at the University of Chicago Laboratory School. That was really a challenge and the director who was there, she really taught me more than I could get in books I think because it was very practical and the children were quite highly gifted children. I really enjoyed that experience the most. KK: 00:53:26 May I ask how you met your husband? HH: 00:53:29 He was a teacher in the same school that I was teaching. We were teaching in a special education school and he was fifth grade and I was in the kindergarten and that' ; s where, yeah. But unfortunately he died very young, at the prime of his life, and so my, my children were just late teenagers and that was very hard. KK: 00:53:58 Were you ever discriminated against for being with someone who wasn' ; t Japanese American? HH: 00:54:06 No, not really. His family was a good Irish Catholic family and there were so much, a big family. He had like eight brothers and sisters and then seven half brothers and sisters and everyone, really, family picnics and holidays. And he was a wonderful cook and a baker. So we really enjoyed our early, early lives living in, we lived in the South Side of Chicago at the time. KK: 00:54:45 So if you were in public together as a family, did you ever experience-- HH: 00:54:51 No. KK: 00:54:52 -- any maybe offensive comments? HH: 00:54:56 No, I think we were lucky that we didn' ; t. KK: 00:55:00 That' ; s good. Yeah, okay. So we really talked a lot. I' ; m going to ask maybe two more questions. I' ; m wondering what you think. Uh, sorry. Really quickly, you said that you felt like Chicago was a welcoming city. What made you think that or feel that way? What was it about the city that seemed welcoming to you? HH: 00:55:33 Besides, just, I just mentioned that the housing was difficult, but I thought the people wherever we went, except just this one agency when I first applied, the man said, " ; I think you' ; d have better luck in Wisconsin." ; And that' ; s the reason why I went and took additional courses. So I thought, well, I could, you know, be more prepared for teaching. Yeah. But in general, the whole city was, and the people that I met, wherever I work, everyone was very friendly and you know, there was no discrimination. I know maybe my friends have mentioned it, but I haven' ; t, I didn' ; t really experience any kind of racial epitaphs to me, maybe in the back they might, but, you know, not to my face or whatever. KK: 00:56:27 Okay. Just two more questions. I' ; m wondering has, has the incarceration of Japanese Americans, has that affected you and, and, and if so, how has that, the legacy of the camps really manifested itself in your own life and also, perhaps, in your children' ; s lives? HH: 00:56:56 Well, I think one of the things that I remember, it' ; s talking about Mr. Richardson, our teacher that he always said to read, read, read, ; be aware, know what' ; s going on in your community or know what' ; s going on in the world. And then also the, the significance of whatever goes on. And so that' ; s what I' ; ve tried to do. And I think that helped to give me a more, a positive feeling because I did have a lot of support. So I know all Americans aren' ; t like whatever happened to us at that time. And I just feel that if you just remain bitter, it' ; s not helpful in general. So I think that' ; s probably what has kept me going because of the support that I had early, all my life. KK: 00:57:55 Okay. Um, my last question is a positive one. Sorry, all of these the questions have been so sad. But, I' ; m wondering maybe what your hopes are for your grandchildren and their children' ; s children and it just helps for future generations and what you want to see existing in this world. And also if you have any advice for people. HH: 00:58:22 I would say that to remember their, the remarkable journey of their immigrant grandparents. That would be one thing. And as I mentioned before, to know what' ; s, to know what' ; s going on around, around you, and also to just remain positive and know that America is ultimately a place where fairness and justice remains. And I think that would be something that we need to, especially today, what' ; s going on today. And then, oh, and lastly, to retain some kind of creative venture or hobby in your life, so that will last a lifetime and then you won' ; t be bored and depressed. KK: 00:59:39 You have a creative hobby.? HH: 00:59:41 Yes, I, well, I' ; ve always, music has been, as I said, I started when I was like four or five and yes, music, music is something that I really appreciate so much. And then I do, right now I' ; m in the middle of scrapbooking. Are you familiar with Creative Memories? It' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s all, and I tried to and that I could incorporat so art activities, that keeps me really busy. KK: 01:00:17 Great. Okay. Not to sell, stay busy. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you that you wish I asked you or anything you want to mention that I didn' ; t touch upon? HH: 01:00:30 Oh, you know, I saw the pictures of when it was---the exhibition and they just reminded me when you were asking me about the school and summertime. I' ; d worked at Excelsior Springs, Missouri and, you have a picture of three fellows there that were, I said, " ; Oh my goodness. I know those guys." ; Yeah. So I was a, sold water. In those days. I don' ; t know what it was like, a penny? And it' ; s supposed to be really magic water that will help you to lose weight or keep your bones strong. HH: 01:01:16 And the other was, I was a night clerk at the-- and I was supposed to use, what do you call it, the--They don' ; t have that kind of system anymore. You had to plug in the, do you know what I' ; m talking about? The telephone system. A switched board, but you plug into the different rooms and I just remember forgetting to plug in this, supposed to wake this guy up and he came through that lobby. Oh, he was so mad and I just turned around and pretend like I even-- But anyway, that picture reminded me of that summer that I worked in Excelsior Springs and it was so hot and, but it was all Nisei. They had hired bus boys and I think they were elevator operators, those fellows. Right. So that was an interesting memory then. KK: 01:02:22 So in between the school years, over the summers, would you work at different jobs? HH: 01:02:28 Yes. Right. And one year I worked in Boston. It' ; s " ; Fresh Air Camp" ; with the children from, let' ; s see, I can' ; t remember now, the name of the town. But anyway, it was called South Ethel ,and it was by the Goodwill Industries. And the lady that was, her father was head of Goodwill so we were counselors and I' ; d never been a counselor before. But anyway, that was an interesting job in Massachusetts. Yeah. That summer. And I think that' ; s when I was able to go to the Boston Symphony, summer. It was, they were playing and Leonard Bernstein, he was just starting. He was only in his twenties, I think. And he, that was one of his first jobs, and I didn' ; t know of course who he was. But today I said, " ; Oh, I heard Leonard Bernstein when he was just a kid." ; [laughs] That was really interesting. KK: 01:03:43 Well it sounds like you' ; ve had just a lifetime of adventures. You' ; ve been through a lot. Is there anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up? HH: 01:03:55 I think you covered the waterfront. KK: 01:03:59 Sorry. I know we had to do a lot of work, a lot of talking. Okay. Well, I' ; m going to turn this off. Thank you, HH: 01:04:04 Okay. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoganHannah20171116.xml HoganHannah20171116.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoganHannah20171116.xml
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Hogan, Hannah (11/16/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Hannah Hogan is a second generation (Nisei) Japanese American. In this interview, she shares memories of her early life in Denver and Los Angeles and describes the atmosphere of tense anxiety in the Los Angeles Japanese American community after Pearl Harbor. She describes having to leave school when her family's financial assets were frozen, being fired from her job at the Department of Motor Vehicles, the FBI taking male community leaders into custody, and the rush to sell or store personal possessions. She also describes the difficult conditions she experienced at Santa Anita and Amache, her early departure to attend college in Kansas, and the death of her father from illness in camp. She recounts her family's reasons for resettling in Chicago and some of the housing, work, and educational experiences of the early resettlement period.
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2017-11-16
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/11/2017 Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe (11/11/2017) 1:00:11 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/309193349 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/309193349?h=39b8517a5a" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you state your full name? Ellen Huxtable: 00:00:02 Sure. My name is Ellen Watanabe Huxtable. AT: 00:00:05 And where and when were you born? EH: 00:00:07 I was born in Chicago in 1953. AT: 00:00:11 Okay. And so like I mentioned, we' ; ll be interested in hearing a little bit about, um, your family' ; s background and your parents specifically. So I guess to start, are you Sansei? EH: 00:00:27 Ah, yes. AT: 00:00:28 Okay. And then do you know anything about when your grandparents came to the US? EH: 00:00:32 I know about my paternal grandparents. My paternal grandfather and grandmother had one child in Japan. My eldest aunt, who I never did get to meet, and then they immigrated to California to San Jose, I believe actually by way of Hawaii at one point, but they did, did land in, in San Jose. And uh, my grandfather worked a number of jobs in that area. He was a, he, both my paternal grandparents were in the trades. My paternal grand, my maternal grandfather was a gardener. My paternal grandfather did lots of things. He did, I believe he did some gardening, he did some handyman work, things like that in, in Southern California. And my paternal grandparents were in the Los Angeles area. See my maternal grandparents were in Los Angeles, paternal ones were in San Jose. I' ; m sorry. AT: 00:01:35 Did you know your grandparents? EH: 00:01:36 I did not ever meet my paternal grandparents. I did know my maternal grandparents when I was little. At that time, after the war, they did return to the Los Angeles area, as did my maternal side, aunts and uncles, aunt and uncles returned to the Los Angeles area, so they were all in Los Angeles and my parents relocated to Chicago after the war. AT: 00:02:00 And then as far as your, your parents go, how old were they? When the war broke out? EH: 00:02:09 They were, in their, probably in their thirties because they were born, they were in their thirties when the war broke out, so they had established jobs. My mother worked for a dental office. My father worked in the, in the, in the produce markets in Los Angeles. And my mother worked as a receptionist for a dentist who was Jewish and when the war was eminent, war with Japan is eminent, he offered to relocate my mother to live with his sister, uh, outside of the exclusion zone or what would have become the exclusion zone. And so he offered to have his sister house her and feed her, and so for the duration of the war, and my mom decided against that, she turned down the very generous offered because my grandparents were alive and nobody knew what was gonna happen. And so she needed, she felt she very much needed to be there with her parents no matter what was gonna happen. So she respectfully declined her, her boss' ; s offer to relocate and be spared from the exclusion. AT: 00:03:16 Do you have any idea or sense of where exactly the sister was living? EH: 00:03:20 Somewhere in the Midwest. It was significantly off, out of the exclusion somewhere in the Midwest. AT: 00:03:25 Hmm. And then how about your dad? EH: 00:03:30 My dad worked in the produce markets. Um, he was here. My paternal grandfather was here. My paternal grandmother had returned to Japan with all of the younger children. And so my, my dad was here with his, with his father. The family history in that case was my paternal grandparents came to this country to make money and go back to Japan. And my, the plan was, and what happened was my, my paternal grandmother took all of the children back to Japan and my grandpa, my father was about 11 to 14 years old when that happened, so she took all the children, including my father back to Japan, and my father spent a year or two in school in Japan, which was very difficult for him because he didn' ; t know that much Japanese and was put in with the class as much younger children because of that. And my grandfather on my father' ; s side was supposed to have closed down the boarding house, which they ran, ran a boarding house in southern California. He was going to sell the boarding house, close it down, and go back to Japan as well. And in that one year period, my paternal grandfather was victim of carbon monoxide poisoning. He had abrasion of coals in his room, let off carbon monoxide, and he was mentally disabled. And so a family friend wrote to Japan and said, he cannot, he cannot survive on his own. He can' ; t come back. So at the age 14, my father came back from Japan to the United States all by himself being the eldest son to watch out for his father. And so when the war book I would just several decades later, um that' ; s why my, my paternal grandfather and my father were the two members of that side of the family that were in, uh, in southern California at the time my father worked with my uncle and my maternal side, which is how he ended up meeting my mother. And so that' ; s how they knew they were very close families even before the war broke out. AT: 00:05:38 Can you tell me about what happened to both families when the Executive, what are, when the Executive Order went out, but when the evacuation happened? EH: 00:05:49 When that happened, everybody was at, was in the Los Angeles area at the time. And so when that happened, the families were evacuated as the exhibit, as it' ; s described, in family units. So my mother was in the family unit with her, her parents and her and her brother and her, her parents, her sister, her younger brother. Her parents, her sister, I take it back, her parents, her sister, and one of her younger brothers. The other younger brother, on my mother' ; s side, my uncle was in the US Army before Pearl Harbor and he was scheduled to be discharged for the US army in December. Unfortunately, Pearl Harbor happened right before he was discharged and when Pearl Harbor happened, nobody was discharged. And so he did, my one uncle did serve during the war in the US Army, uh, a stateside in a very isolated capacity, but he did serve in the US Army for the duration of the war. And when he was home on leave, he would be going to the Manzanar Relocation Center to go home on leave. AT: 00:07:07 Do you know if either family unit went to an assembly center? EH: 00:07:12 Yeah, they went to the Santa Anita Racetrack. Both of them both went to the Santa Anita Racetrack. And uh, from there were transferred to Manzanar. Um, my father had at Manzanar, was one, I think he was probably in charge of the athletic programs there. So he was a, he had been a summer pro baseball player before the war and organized the sports and sports activities in Manzanar. He also ended up organizing the artificial flower making factory or whatever you want to call it, activity at Manzanar because that was something that was, that he had a skill and that he' ; d been in the floral industry prior to the boards, well, he understood flowers but knew how to construct artificial flowers out of crepe paper, wire, things like that. And so he, he was active in the camps as a sports coordinator. Um, and certainly member of the base, Manzanar Knights' ; baseball team. AT: 00:08:20 And do you know anything about his, uh, his time in as a semi-pro? EH: 00:08:27 Yeah. When he was in semi-pro ball, there was a Japanese, a Japanese American semipro baseball team, and had a number of them. They had a league actually prior to the war and he played for a one of the, the LA Nips and it was the LA Nips baseball team. He played locally. They also traveled to Japan prior to the word twice to play against teams in Japan. And so he had been in the team of for, a period of time before the war. He was also very active before the war in a group called the Oliver' ; s. There was a woman in Los Angeles, a, a Caucasian woman who was, seems to be sort of like the, the, the Hull House for the Japanese American youth in Los Angeles, and that was a very active group as well that my, my, my grandfather, my father was part of. AT: 00:09:28 And then how about your mother? So she also went to Santa Anita and then Manzanar. Did she take up work in camp? EH: 00:09:31 There really wasn' ; t a lot of work available and so most of the people, including my mom, really didn' ; t have a job everybody, had the stipend that they received for, to buy incidentals, but she didn' ; t really have a formal job in the camp. However, to pass the time she made an incredible collection of lace, doily tablecloths. So I have a lot of lace, handmade, beautiful lace doily table class because she was very adept at that. They had lots and lots of time and sometimes we have some very, uh, very, uh, dramatic pieces of artwork because of that. AT: 00:10:12 And then, do you know how long each family unit was in camp? EH: 00:10:19 I don' ; t know exactly. I know that my father, my father came out of camp relatively early because the, as he explained to me when I was little, as the war was starting to wind down the word went out in camp that you could leave camp and see if you could find a job and if you could, you could stay out. If the sentiment was so strong against the Japanese community that it was dangerous for you or you couldn' ; t find work, then come back to the camp because at least you' ; ll safe you' ; ll be fed. So my father came out to Chicago because it was known that Chicago was relatively accepting of the Japanese community. So he came out to Chicago first and wrote back to my mom saying, I' ; m in Chicago and my parents weren' ; t married yet. Saying, I' ; m in Chicago and it' ; s livable here. If you want to come out, I' ; ll watch out for you. And so at that time, according to my parents, my mom they were hanging out in the group of guys and women and my mom went and told the people that evening " ; Gee, Min--who was my father--Min wrote and said that Chicago is livable. And invited me to come out and some of the guys that were there say, well, hey, we' ; re leaving for Chicago in the morning early and if you want to, if you want to come with us, be at the gate at 6 o' ; clock. And my mom' ; s said, sure, I' ; ll go with you. And they said, no you won' ; t. She said, sure I will. So in the morning there was my mom with her suitcase to leave the camp with these guys we have with my dad in Chicago. So that' ; s when my parents ended up coming here and I know from JASC and that they' ; ve done graphic things about about where the Japanese community located. My parents located on the North Side. We lived, they lived first of all at the corner of probably Clark Street and near Clark and Chicago Avenue, or Clark and Chestnut was. There was a boarding house where they lived first initially and then they moved to a four-flat building on Chestnut Street. So when I was. When they were living at the 11 East Chestnut, which was a very residential neighborhood, and my uncle, my father' ; s younger brother also came out to Chicago and always stay geographically very close to my parents and my family. So he lived in the same building. AT: 00:12:44 Was this the uncle who was serving? EH: 00:12:44 No, this wasn' ; t. This was my paternal uncle, my maternal youngest brother, my maternal youngest brother went back to Los Angeles with, uh, with my grandma, my maternal grandparents. And so they got married. He got married after the war. AT: 00:13:03 For your dad' ; s family, his siblings and his mom had been in Japan during the war? EH: 00:13:11 Yeah. His siblings and mom had been in Japan. They lived in rural Japan and uh, they were from Kumamoto-ken and I don' ; t know, I believe that they probably went back to, I don' ; t know, they probably did think about it. So they were back in Kumamoto-ken. Um, my father had told me that one of his younger sisters, my aunt and her husband, because they were in their twenties, late twenties, early thirties were married. They were living in Hiroshima. And when the bomb went off in Hiroshima, my aunt and my uncle were, were spared because they were there visiting in the country so they were not, they were Hiroshima residents, they were not Hiroshima at the time of the bomb. And so that' ; s, you know, it was very fortunate. It was extremely fortunate for them. AT: 00:14:01 Are there any, um, does your parents ever share any particular memories or stories? EH: 00:14:12 Mhmm AT: 00:14:12 Are there any of the family? EH: 00:14:14 Well, there' ; s a couple of them, but that don' ; t involve family members. There' ; s a, when the, the movie on television Farewell to Manzanar came out. One of the episodes that was related in there was when there was somebody that was being pursued by a mob that at the camp and went to the hospital to hide because in the camp there' ; s not a lot of places you can hide. And so the, the family history was that in the movie they said that they put them in the laundry or something like that. And when my parents and I were watching, when I was younger and my parents said naw, he wasn' ; t in the laundry, they put him, my parents they had put them underneath a woman that was in labor in the maternity wing. He so you think he wasn' ; t in the laundry, he was under a woman that was in labor. That' ; s where they put him. So I don' ; t know whether that' ; s true or not, but that' ; s what they, their recollection was, and there are other recollection was that there was a. A young man who was a little, slightly mentally handicapped and a ball roll too close to the fence and he was shot by a guard. Not fatally, but that was another one of the things that they remembered as being one of the episodes that they remembered from camp. AT: 00:15:22 Did your parents talk about their experiences with you, when you were growing up? EH: 00:15:27 They did and my parents were of the opinion that it was important to know and so they would tell me things about, I knew about the camps. I didn' ; t know, um certainly, they didn' ; t overplay the hardships, but they told me that that' ; s where they met a lot of their friends and in fact when I was little and they would talk about their friends, they were trying to identify who knew who it was like, oh yeah, that was so and so. Who are they? Well, they were in Block 22 and, and that' ; s how they related to each other. Oh, that sounds like, they were in Block 15. So they were far away geographically. So that was there like as somebody from Evanston or somebody from wilmette. No, they were from Block 22, they were from Block 21. And so that was their geographic reference, who, when they were meeting new people that uh, that, that relocated into the Chicago area. AT: 00:16:19 And when they came to Chicago, what kind of work did they do? EH: 00:16:24 My father was working in a brewery, they worked wherever they could find. My father worked in a brewery and afterwards he said, did you know how they make beer? You said you would never touched the stuff again because of course at that time it wasn' ; t quite the same thing as Anheuser Busch with the beautiful horses and the Clydesdales, it was probably very, very basic and so he said if you don' ; t know how the conditions under which brewery' ; s, you' ; d never drink it again. And so he worked at brewery at first, then went to work in the floral industry. He was a floral designer when I was born in 1953. He was a floral designer, whereas before what would that time was Anna Flower Shop, which was the preeminent florist in Chicago. They did the cotillions, they did all the social engagements. They did the flowers for Holy Name Cathedral was a very eminent, a florist in Chicago. My mom worked again as a secretary. So my mom got a secretarial positions. She had clerical skills and typing skills. So she worked in a secretarial position? AT: 00:17:27 Do you know where she did? EH: 00:17:27 Not initially. I don' ; t know where she worked initially. Um, so I, I can' ; t remember where she worked initially, I don' ; t know. AT: 00:17:36 And then the floral business, do you know where that was located? EH: 00:17:41 That was on the North Side of Chicago actually, and my dad was able, was able actually to walk toward from, from where we lived. And so it was, um, but that was where he went ultimately when I was born, when I was born and little. That' ; s where he worked for, for that period of time. AT: 00:17:59 And do you have any siblings? EH: 00:18:01 Nope. It' ; s just me. The, the North Side of Chicago was interesting. There was, besides myself, my best friend in elementary school was Japanese American, also Sansei. And so there was the, my family, her family. Um the Kawasaki family with three sons, and ah the Higashigawa family with one son. And so there was in a school that was very small, we had a good number of Sansei all going to the same elementary school at the time. So that was very interesting. AT: 00:18:35 Which school was it? EH: 00:18:35 That was the William B. Ogden school, which was on State Street in Walton. And so there was a cluster, a significant cluster of Japanese Americans that lived there. Toguri Mercantile was just down the street. And uh, of course Mrs. Toguri was there. And uh, was a member of the community and people knew that that was her background is Tokyo Rose had been, but it was something that was just part of the past and we all knew that and was accepted as, as just, just the fact of the past. AT: 00:19:10 Do you recall any other Japanese American businesses or um? EH: 00:19:16 It was fun to right within walking distance of there, there was, um, there was Clark Restaurant which was run by three Japanese brothers at the corner of Clark Street and Chestnut. And they were the Joichi brothers and there was Rowland Joichi, Oscar Joichi and Chester Joichi. Three brothers ran a greasy spoon restaurant, it was very efficient. The one brother had the breakfast shift, the one brother had the lunch shift and the other brother had the dinner shift. And so they were very well established. Um very popular with the Chicago Avenue Police District because any officer that came to their restaurant, no matter what day it was, a dollar and coffee was always free. There were the safest restaurant in all of Chicago. And so that was one of the businesses that was there. Um, Star Market was the, was the grocery store that was there and uh, that was a little bit further away, but, uh, that, that was when the neighborhood grocery stores. Of course, totally Toguri Mercantile was there. And um, so those are the Japanese businesses that I remember being in the area. AT: 00:20:34 And then uh, what about for doctors and dentists? I know a lot of folks were going to Japanese American services when possible? EH: 00:20:49 Actually my parents really didn' ; t. We used, I was born at, at, at a Wesley Memorial Hospital, which is part of the union, of the Northwestern campus now, but all of our doctors were pretty much a Caucasian. All of our professionals, pretty much Caucasian at the time. AT: 00:21:07 And then, um, how about, was your family religious at all or did you have any activities outside of school? EH: 00:21:15 We were, we were not religious. I would periodically go to one of the local churches with some of my friends, the, we did go to the Buddhist Temple to the Buddhist Temple of Chicago once a year in January for my grandfather' ; s memorial. Um, my, my paternal grandfather came to Chicago as well, along with my father, brought his brother and his father to Chicago and my paternal grandfather died the year before I was born, so I never got to meet him. But he died in Chicago. And at the time he passed away, it was in January, my my of 1952. My parents didn' ; t know anybody. My father made blind calls and ended up calling Reverend Gyomay Kubose, who had just started the Buddhist Temple in Chicago. And so Reverend Kubose presided at my grandfather' ; s funeral. And my parents were always, you know very appreciative that, very much a, we got over the many, many decades. We got very close to, to the Buddhist Temple. Uh, my parents were Christian though and uh, so that every year consistently you' ; d go once a year to the Buddhist Temple. And when my father passed away, he wanted the, his memorial service presided over by Reverend Kubose. And then the pastor of the church that my husband and I went to. So we had this half Christian, half Buddhists memorial service, my father. But Reverend Kubose was, you know, very, very active and had a very dynamic and still, still very dynamic under his son. AT: 00:22:54 So the reason for reaching out to to BTC this had less to do with the Buddhist affiliations. EH: 00:23:08 That was because my grandfather was Buddhist and so my. My father felt that he wanted to honor his father' ; s preferences that he knew of and so he reached out to, he was looking for a Buddhist, a connection to honor my grandfather. AT: 00:23:28 And you said that sometimes you would go to church with friends. What were some of those churches? EH: 00:23:35 Oh, when I went on my for a while to Fourth Presbyterian, because this was on the North Side. And then I went for a while as a little bit older to El Masales, which is a church that drew a lot of it' ; s Sunday school teachers from Moody Bible. So those are the two churches I went to. There was also a church I, I wish I could remember where it was. There was a church that had a large Japanese American congregation that we went to once or twice, but it was geographically too far away, so we didn' ; t go very often. As far as social things go, my Dad played golf with the 19th Hole Golf Club, which is how I know [San Sunomia?] Who was on the video, because he was one of my dad' ; s golfing buddies. And my mom and I would tag along often, so I know San very well at least when I was 10, 11, 12 years old. And so that was one of the very strong unifying things for the for my father and getting involved in, in the, in the larger Japanese community. And so there was. That group was called the 19th Holers. They played local courses. There was some are private and there' ; s another group called the 19th of the call, the cavaliers golf group, and they were out of a church because they only played on Saturdays because all of them went to church on Sundays, which is really nice as opposed to my dad' ; s golf club who were a little bit more non religiously affiliated who golfed on Sunday morning, at six in the morning. But uh, eventually those two Japanese American golf groups came together and so then they became the 19th Cavaliers and the all golfed together as a unit. AT: 00:25:12 And so how long was your family been uh over on the north side of Chestnut. EH: 00:25:19 We were there until I was out of the eighth grade, so that would' ; ve been 15, 16, til the mid sixties probably. And during that time that particularly had great turnover, it was residential when I was very little. It became highly nightclub oriented as Rush street, which is right there, moved, was expanding, so it became a very, a very dynamic nightclub neighborhood. It was highly nonresidential. And so then our family kept on moving further north. We moved up to right by Wrigley Field for a while and lived there. The people that owned the restaurant at Clark and Chestnut moved their restaurant up to up to the north side of Chicago right by Wrigley Field. Um, so their restaurant moved. At that time there was already a small Japanese, oh, a small restaurant owned by a Japanese person on a very small triangle of land on Clark Street, right by Wrigley. Um AT: 00:26:15 Do you know what that was called or where exactly it was? EH: 00:26:17 It was like Hamburger Heaven or something. AT: 00:26:21 Hamburger King? EH: 00:26:21 Hamburger King. Somebody' ; s told you about Hamburger King already? AT: 00:26:25 It was even around in my lifetime. EH: 00:26:28 Okay. It was on a little tiny triangle of land and they had like seven little stools in it and it was bizarre. And then I went across the street from, that was Nisei Lounge, which was the bar that had pool tables and when my family moved up that way was my favorite hangout, which is pretty fun because it was a bar and he didn' ; t, he never drank. Having seen how beer is made, he didn' ; t want to touch the stuff. And so, but he would go there frequently to play for the Nisei Lounge, which was happily happily next door to the restaurant, has, door passed between that and the Japanese restaurant moved up from Clark Street. So it was a very nice little microcosm community. Star Market was just a few blocks down on properly Belmont and Clark. And so there was, there was a relatively compact Japanese community at that time. AT: 00:27:16 Would you happen to remember the name of the re, the new Clark restaurant? EH: 00:27:22 Oh gosh, that' ; s a good question. It was Clark Restaurant and it became, I can' ; t remember. I' ; ll have to think about that one. Good question. AT: 00:27:32 And how about your address with what streets were you living on? EH: 00:27:36 When I lived, when we moved up north, I always in high school then, which would have made it in, in the late sixties, late sixties. And it was, we lived at 921 West Cornelia, which is one of the court buildings. It' ; s just down the street from Wrigley field. We lived, we lived in, in the court, which put us very close to both the Japanese owned restaurant and the Japanese bar, which is very convenient. AT: 00:28:03 Um, which school, did you go to? EH: 00:28:05 I went to Francis Parker and so that, um, I would catch the bus on Clark Street, and ride the bus, the Clark Street bus down to school and then ride the bus back at the end of the school day. And so I would do that, some of our family, our family friends went to Senn and lived right across the street from Senn High School. Some of our very good family friends went to Senn. AT: 00:28:26 Did you ever go to the Japanese cinema that was held out of Clark Street? EH: 00:28:30 No, no but, but it was fun because um the person that I met was Omar Kaihatsu. And I remember him in the corridors and he was a very dramatic person. He had, he would wear his coat over his shoulders, sort of like a cape. They would go through the halls of the school is, as a very dramatic character and then on something else and it might have been on the drum core things that my son is involved in. Somebody else named Kaihatsu on there, on Facebook. So I texted him, I said, hi, are you by any chance related to Omar? And the person says, that' ; s my father. How do you know him? I said well, because when I was in school he used to come through the corridors and I have no idea why he was there. It was because of the Japanese cinema and so I had no idea about the Japanese cinema, but I remember, I remember Omar Kaihatsu from that. AT: 00:29:21 Were there other Japanese American students at Francis Parker? EH: 00:29:25 Yeah, there was, the Hikawa sisters were there. And I' ; m thinking who else was there? Um, oh yeah, there' ; s a couple of guys. Um, there are several other Japanese families there. The Kurahara' ; s, Marty Kurahara was, one of, was another family there. And actually I need to look up, I need to look up the, the Hikawa' ; s because they marched in the Nisei Ambassadors from the Bugle Corps. And that' ; s what my son is researching now for his senior project probably feeding into a PhD thesis that he wants to do. AT: 00:30:07 And then, your high school where they, were you involved in any extracurricular activities? EH: 00:30:12 Not really. Not really. It was, um, it was very, not really, we didn' ; t get involved in any. It' ; s not like the, the, like the, the other kids did. AT: 00:30:24 And how would you describe your overall school experience in Chicago as you were growing up? EH: 00:30:31 It was fine. I think that there was, I never really experienced any discrimination. I never experienced anything that was racial or hatred. The kinds of things that people accepted just as part of the culture then were very different than they are now. And that people would have the little, little things that playground that would say things like Ching Chong Chinaman sitting on a fence. Or they' ; d say, my father is Japanese, my mother is Chinese. And I' ; m both. There were many things that were racial. But at that time I truly never took offense. Nor did I think any other other children' ; s parents are parents may or may not have. But as children at the time, um, it was, it was not said in hatred and it was like something like Jack and Jill went up the hill. It was a little diddy rhyme that never really, at least in my case, had that, uh, it' ; s stinging impact at all. AT: 00:31:31 And then uh, what happens after ah your family lived in Lakeview? Did you all move again? EH: 00:31:42 We kept on moving more north, so after that we ended up moving up north up to Dam, up on Damen Avenue. Then we moved further north and ended up by Lincoln by Lincoln Avenue and Irving Park Road where like my parents had retired and lived there, had a very small house. Made my mother very happy because she didn' ; t think she would ever have a house of her own. And so we moved up to up to there and that when I got married I moved with my husband, moved to where my husband was in Des Plaines. Well, my parents were in that house until they both passed away. AT: 00:32:21 I' ; m sorry, they were both in the Lincoln and Irving house? EH: 00:32:25 Yeah. Yeah. Which is off of Lincoln, Irving. They lived on Berteau, which is just north of Lin, Irving Park on Lincoln. AT: 00:32:31 You had mentioned is, uh, your dad' ; s involvement in the golfing club. EH: 00:32:42 Mhm AT: 00:32:42 Were there any ways that you personally found yourself involved with the Japanese American community? EH: 00:32:52 Very marginally because we did not have, we did not have a car when I was little, so our transport our transportation was very limited when we needed a car. When you borrowed the car from the guy that worked the third shift at the Clark Restaurant, because he was there until one in the morning, so when we needed to car, we' ; d walk two blocks down to Clark Restaurant, ask the owner for his car keys, borrow his car, do whatever they wanted to at nights long as it was back by midnight or so. We return his car keys and walk home. And so we, I got, I didn' ; t get involved a lot in, in the Japanese community at all really because there were not that many opportunities that were availed themselves. AT: 00:33:34 And um, you could just help me clarify it. The brothers, at Clark Restaurant, was that the Joichi brothers? EH: 00:33:44 Okay. It was a very eclectic restaurant and would you kind of think it would be interesting to make a television show about. Because it was three brothers only this restaurant, they had a polyglot of customers there was [Michia and Yasha?] two Russian guys, one of who would do Russian dances in the middle of the restaurant when he felt so moved. One of whom looked like something that was like out of your typical cartoon character. I mean, just big guy. And so it was a very interesting place. You' ; d have people there that were down on their luck. You' ; d have to police walking in all the time. Um very, very interesting community at the time. AT: 00:34:27 Can you describe the, what it looked like on the inside? EH: 00:34:32 Sure. It was an interesting little restaurant. It was a little greasy spoon restaurant. There were probably eight tables that, four running down one long wall. On the other side, there was a counter with probably 10 benches. And in the middle there' ; s probably two or three tables that would seat two people a piece. And the fun part about that of course is that the brother who ran the the dinner shift, which is the busiest, was the youngest of the brothers and kept everything in his head. He didn' ; t cook. He didn' ; t wash the dishes, but he waited all the tables. He bussed all the tables and he ran the register and the way he did it was quite amazing. He would get, you' ; d open the menu. You' ; d ask for, order your thing everybody would order what they wanted to and when you' ; re done, we' ; d walk up to the register, he' ; d look at you say, okay, you had the meatloaf, the mashed potatoes, the coffee and the rice pudding for dessert you owe me and he would have the whole bill all split out, he' ; d know exactly what everybody had and how much they owed him. And so that' ; s how he did it efficiently was all in his head. So it was a pretty interesting uh, thing to watch my uncle from my father' ; s side who relocated to Chicago with my mom and my dad was their steady customer. He was there for dinner every night at the same time. It' ; s 6:00. If I wanted to find my uncle, we knew where to go, we would go there. Was at the same table every night eating the same dinner every night. So it' ; s really quite convenient if we needed to find my uncle. AT: 00:36:08 And the location you described, is that its original location? EH: 00:36:13 Yeah. Of the restaurant? AT: 00:36:15 [Nods] EH: 00:36:15 When they, when as far back as I can remember, which should' ; ve been in the mid-1950s, uh, they were already very well established there. AT: 00:36:33 So what, what year would that have been that you moved out to this place? That wasn' ; t in the city. EH: 00:36:39 That would have been in 19, 1988 probably. So I was in the city for a long period of time. AT: 00:36:50 And how did living in the suburbs compared to? EH: 00:36:55 It was very different. Certainly I have to become a much better driver than I had been in the city and unfortunately I lost my, all my, my city sense of how the L' ; s run and how the buses run and everything like that, because when I was in high school I was a, I was able to go pretty much anywhere in the city that I wanted to on public transit and I don' ; t have that skill anymore unfortunately. And so that was one of the changes that had to become a much better driver than I than it had been before. But the, um, I think the Relocation experience was one for my parents, that was good. I mean, my, my, my aunts and uncles on my mom' ; s side, we' ; re back in Los Angeles. We' ; d go back to visit them once a year, sometimes once every other year but they had established their life over there and my parents had established their life' ; s over here and it was a change that would have never happened had it not been for the war. I' ; m sure that my parents would have stayed in Los Angeles, can continue to do what they did there. It was a very different turn in their lives. AT: 00:38:04 Do you know anything about your mom' ; s family' ; s experiences or what it was like going back to LA? EH: 00:38:12 I don' ; t know. When they, when my grandparents left camp. They, my mother' ; s oldest sister was an optometrist prior to the war. My mother' ; s, she was married to a dentist before the war, so they were both, two professionals. And after the war they bought a, a bungalow courthouse complex, which is, which actually on, um, on Google maps, the crazy building is still standing. It was old when I was a kid. And this stucco building is, is that they were at 985 and 4/5th South Ardmore in Los Angeles. It' ; s still there. But they bought this section, I think it' ; s 16 units and then an old farm house kind of house. And my grandma, my maternal grandparents ran the complex for my aunt, my uncle, and so they lived in the old firehouse house and they pretty much took in the rent, handed out the keys and somebody locked themselves out of their apartment and did the, the general oversight on behalf of my aunt and my uncles, my maternal grandparents lived their lives in a very comfortable existence because they had a place to stay in, in, uh, we' ; re compensated, I expect in some way by my aunt for watching the property for her. So they were, that' ; s where they lived until they passed away. AT: 00:39:45 All of this information that you have about your family history and experiences, how did you get interested in learning about that? Or was the process like for learning all of this information? EH: 00:40:03 My parents would always share everything and they would tell me about about family history. I know that my on my father' ; s side, my, my, my great grandfather and my, according to family lore, immigrated from Japan to Hawaii because she went to Yokohama Harbor, to see his friend off on the boat and decided he was going to jump on the boat and go with them and so and so that' ; s how my, my great grandfather ended up in Hawaii. He did work at, I think, owning a pineapple plantation and my grandfather, his son was evidently not much of a pineapple plantation farmer and ended up not following the family trade or the family business and I think that they lost. My understanding is they lost the plantation because not management, but so that' ; s part of the family lore that, you know, my father would tell me about the stories about the past and um my parents, things would come up conversationally because as an only child I was always very careful that whatever was said in front of me as a child, the line was, don' ; t repeat it. You got it. And so by, by having that degree of trust, I could hear an awful lot of things from my parents talking about things. And it was like, well, here' ; s what' ; s really happening and here' ; s what so and so' ; s did or has done or did and they would talk freely in front of me. So I just sort of sat there and listened and ended up finding out all sorts of things because because they were very comfortable and their friends, we' ; re very comfortable talking in front of me. So I just learned just by listening to people what, you know, what things are like AT: 00:41:54 That' ; s um, from what I heard and learned from speaking with people. That seems pretty unusual. The, you know, hearing about these experiences. EH: 00:42:05 My parents very much felt that this was something that was important and of course until things like this exhibit came, um, many people had no idea. Maybe people still have no idea as to what happened because there' ; s, the tour guide was so apt to point out the camps were very carefully located there in places that people didn' ; t know about. And so that there was lots and lots of just lack of knowledge about any of this happening. And my parents knew that and they felt that if people didn' ; t speak up about about what did happen, that the memory would be lost in therefore the experience would be lost and it was too important for, it was too important that that not be lost. AT: 00:42:52 And how do you feel about that? EH: 00:42:54 Well, I think that it is very important because in this, especially with all of the, the still latent fear and uncertainty and people being so afraid of difference and you can' ; t blame people for being afraid of difference if they' ; ve never been exposed to or taught things, but I think it' ; s important that the whole experience be remembered because people need to realize that yes, it can happen. Yes, it did happen. So that we as a society are going to be able to to cut it short, to avoid it. To say people can say, well, that will never happen, and the nice nice enough, the positive is that people can no longer say, that will never happen in this country. We know about the Holocaust and were it not for the Holocaust, we would People would say, that' ; s impossible. How can people be so inhumane that can never happen, well it did. And then people can say, well, that kind of a profiling in segregation of a certain group that would never happen in the United States and and because of this we can say yes it can, and it did. So I think that' ; s the part that' ; s very, very important and that' ; s what my parents very much wanted to have that remembrance. Not that it was anything that was family oriented only, but that there was bigger than that. This is something that was much bigger than that and that that collective society memory is not lost. AT: 00:44:39 Do you feel a responsibility or any kind of obligation as a Japanese American or or daughter of people who went through this experience to keep that alive? EH: 00:44:55 I think that, I think that' ; s important. When people asked me about it, certainly, I share what my parents told me. I share their experiences that I know of. I definitely share it with my son because he, he' ; s felt a very close affinity to my parents because my mom was alive when he, until the time he was in kindergarten and she was very close to where she was, old and frail, so she spent a lot of time staying with this for extended periods, so he got to be very close to her and he felt by assimilation close to my dad because my son was, always loved baseball. My dad, of course, played a, you know, semi pro baseball and so he always has felt that affinity for him. And so because of that, he' ; s always wanted to know more about the, about the grandfather he never got to meet you. He wanted to know more about the background for my mom. So that, and so that makes it very easy to share with them some of the, uh, experiences. And also we have some items that my parents did save because they said, I know there' ; s some people said we' ; re going to get rid of everything that reminds us of any of that time. My parents did save some certain things from their period. Uh, we have a couple of pictures that were painted in the camp. One of them has to be my paternal, my paternal grandfather and he was one of the people that went to Manzanar to build Manzanar. Because he had carpentry skills and there' ; s a picture that was painted and of what I know is my paternal grandfather because I' ; ve seen pictures of him, it was a hand painted picture, cartoonish nature, and he looks just like Mario, in the Mario games. He was really short, stumpy size, very short, very stumpy, a mustache. He had the little slouched hat, he had little carpenter' ; s apron and is carrying a big mallet in this, in this picture. Looks like a Japanese Mario. So I have things like that that there are pieces that my parents handed down to me and that my son has seen and when he' ; s asked, he' ; s done some school projects on Manzanar. And so when asked about school projects, I have the things that I have from my parents. I' ; ve shown them to him. So he knows what we have. I have the notebook my mom had when she was taking dressmaking at Manzanar. You mentioned how what did she do. They had lots and lots of opportunities for people to learn hobbies and so people that knew how to do something with would show others how to do, what do they knew. And so my mom took up dressmaking, which was wonderful. She was never very good at it. Her best friend was superb at it, which is really good, but my mother was never good at it, but she had detailed notes from her dressmaking class that I have her notebook and that has ended her address Manzanar is for her, her block in her barracks and unit number that she had. AT: 00:48:00 Can you tell me a little bit about this book that you had mentioned before I started filming that you' ; re working on, and what inspired you to do that? EH: 00:48:10 Well, I have a book that I am. I do have to finish because it is important for family history, but when my son was very little, he was very, very upset that he never got to meet my father and his he and then when my mom passed away, that was a seminal moment for him that he was old enough to understand, but misses her, still misses her greatly and he was wishing that he would have had a chance to meet my dad. So I wrote a, a middle school, a young middle schoolish book, in a time travel mode. So in this book my son would have had the opportunity as a character in the book to go back in time to go to Manzanar and to engage with and meet my dad because my dad had questions very involved in baseball at the camp and then he would have a chance to develop that relationship that he never had a chance to develop and so I wrote a draft of the book and very much from the heart and recognize of course, that that, that as far as plot development in complexity, it' ; s not ready yet. It' ; s not ready. I do need to do more, but certainly this is something that my son has has had the opportunity to read and even when he was much younger, this is done when he was in middle school, young middle school. He' ; s now in college and almost ready to get out. It' ; s been a while, but at the same time it was, that prompted me to do a lot of research about Manzanar and the camp experience and when I started the book years ago now, there is almost nothing out there. There were the photos of Dorothea Lange through the photos of Ansel Adams. There was some things that Densho had pulled together, but there' ; s very little out there and now that there' ; s so much more available, I' ; m able to fill in a lot of the things in the book, some of the texture of the detail that was just not available before then. The Manzanar Free Press, uh, the newspaper there were, there were selected copies available as pdfs years now I know that the whole Manzanar Free Press has been digitized and is available. And that' ; s how I found out about a lot of the things my dad did because his, with his profile in the athletic programs at Manzanar, his name does come up occasionally in the Manzanar Free Press. And family friends that I knew from when from childhood, their names come up in the Manzanar Free Press as well. So as I think about [Shio Tashimo?] was a woman that was a professional bowler from the pro bowl circuit after the war, uh, an in-law of my mother' ; s and she was a, she was a jock back and Manzanar, I mean she was uh, uh, I was a very athletic woman. She was a jock back in Manzanar, and that' ; s all in the Free Press that she and her sister, who' ; s my, um, my mom' ; s sister in law, uh, they were both very athletic back, back in Manzanar. Things like that are, are fun things that as I find names of people I know, that are in there, and I remember them when I was a child and what they were like after the war. So it was always fun, it' ; s fun for me to go back and look sometime. AT: 00:51:39 Are there ways that you, do you think that there were any kind of lasting impacts or or legacies from the experience of the incarceration that we' ; re kind of passed down to you or that you experienced in your own life? EH: 00:52:04 I think that if it' ; s something that had a profound effect on the identities of the Japanese American community. That the community always, even though they often have enclaves like Japantown in Los Angeles, that the, the, the overall philosophy, overall mindset of the Japanese community was was one of assimilation integration, not to give up the things that are that are Japanese, like the Obon ceremony and in, in LA. Not to give those things up but to but to be part of the American culture, which is why, for example, the Nisei Ambassadors were a Japanese group that was very engaged in this very USA activity. Most of the drum corps of the time were run by the VFW Halls. And so this, there was always this feeling I think, of, of wanting to be good US citizens. I think that that was, that was intensified by the experience in some cases. In some cases, no, there are people that after the war that my parents knew that said I' ; m going back to Japan, so that, but for some, for one part of the community, part of it was that, no, we are, we are Americans. We' ; re going to prove our loyal to the 442nd of course. We are Americans, we' ; re going to prove our loyalty, we' ; re going to be American. And I think that was something that was always there. There' ; s also the recognition that there is a, there was at the time, certainly a racial bias. The people that were successful as adults in the broader community after the war were very circumspect. They were very much the ideal employee and as children were raised too very much to be the ideal child. And so I think that kind of thing was always part of the Japanese, uh, expectation. I think that, that, that, that expectation though was, was sustained because we want the community very much wanted to prove that they were US citizens. One of the things I remember from childhood was when I was about six or seven in the Rush Street neighborhood. We lived off of Chestnut, there was a rash of fires. We had a pyromaniac in the neighborhood and buildings are being torched every few nights and they were major fires. The person was very good at it, unfortunately, and one of them was a multistory residential buildings that was three doors down from where we live and there was an arson investigation because this was arson, and things are going up every night. And the arson investigators were making inquiries and they, they asked about my family because the, the, my, my parents and myself and my uncle were the only Japanese and that in that area. And so they asked about. They' ; re asking the neighbors about our, my family. Do they think that somebody in the family was the arsonist basically? And God bless there was a Italian woman in the building and she was very outspoken and she wrung the people out and said, no, that' ; s a family, they' ; ve been here for many years. They' ; re upstanding citizens. They' ; re not who you' ; re looking for. They' ; re not the arsonist. And she got very mad at them, uh, for, for having that kind of prejudicial thinking. They did find the arsonist actually, and it was interesting because back then technology was pretty smart. They took pictures of the crowd watching the fire and they looked in the crowd pictures. There was somebody who was in all the pictures that would look really abnormally happy and they, that was the arsonist. The person was setting the fires so that he could watch them. But the, uh, the prejudice that was there, except Rosa was that this family is not white. Um, is there somebody in that family that is setting, setting these fires? So that was one of the things that did, was a, a racial stereotyping, prejudice. Still at that time. AT: 00:56:28 What are some of your hopes for your children and maybe eventually grandchildren, for future generations in general. And if you could have, you know, pass down any kind of message or legacy, what would you want to pass down? EH: 00:56:47 I think that what I see is that there are two things that are important. One certainly is that we' ; re all part of a larger society. We' ; re all part of the United States. We' ; re all part of a world actually, we' ; re part of a world, a world nation now. The world is very small now. We' ; re all part of a world community and that' ; s important. I think it' ; s also important to celebrate the things that are unique to each culture, each, each nationality, each, each, each culture has very unique things that should be celebrated. And I think what is important is that we as a world nation get to appreciate the differences and not be fearful of them and not be biased toward any one set of tendencies, any one culture and any one background. Any one ethnicity that everybody has great contributions. Every culture, every individual has great contributions to make. And that by celebrating those we were all richer for it. Uh, that the, that, the fear, that the lack of understanding based upon a lack of knowledge, it is something that we can' ; t afford the capability in this day and age of blowing the whole thing up. It' ; s very, it' ; s very simple to, to wipe us all out in this day and age is very simple and that is going to be a product of fear and hatred and lack of understanding. I think that what the whole experience is should teach us and hopefully will teach us all is that differences that they' ; re to be celebrated, that we' ; re all richer for this, that this is something that makes the can make the United States a very great country or can rip this apart and that polarization, which is something that right now is was very, very prominent, which is unfortunate. That polarization is destructive and it will destroy it. There' ; s no, there' ; s no way around that, but I think that the, the experiences as being in a minority culture is that every culture has great things to contribute and that we all need to appreciate that which is sometimes hard for people to do. AT: 00:59:25 Well, thank you so much again for taking the time to speak with me. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? EH: 00:59:36 Not really. I think that I appreciate you taking the time to do the interviews and I hope that this is something that becomes a richer and richer project, because it' ; s the experience of one group at one period of time, but there are things in there that are universal. And there are things in there that are important to capture because things history repeats itself. And if they can establish things so that the good things repeat and the things that are unfortunate, don' ; t repeat them. It' ; s worth it. So thank you for the time. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HuxtableEllen20171111.xml HuxtableEllen20171111.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe (11/11/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Takada, Anna
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Ideno, Helen
Interview Keyword
Torrance
Santa Anita
Granada
Amache
West Side
Midwest Buddhist Temple
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5.4 8/24/2017 Ideno, Helen (8/24/2017) 0:34:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Torrance Santa Anita Granada Amache West Side Midwest Buddhist Temple Ideno, Helen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307588911 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307588911?h=b7ad0c4af2" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Helen Ideno is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American born in Torrance, CA shortly before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. During WWII, she and her family were incarcerated at Santa Anita and Amache, after which they resettled in Chicago. In this interview she shares what she knows of her family's incarceration experience and her own memories of growing up on Chicago's West Side where there were few other Japanese Americans. She recounts deciding to become more actively involved with the Midwest Buddhist Temple as a teenager, through which she was able to participate in Japanese American community activities. She also describes her experiences as a teacher and the ways in which she has tried to pass her heritage on to her children and grandchildren. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Helen Ideno: 00:00 I' ; m Helen Ideno and I live in Park Ridge, Illinois. Anna Takada: 00:04 And uh, where, where were you born? HI: 00:07 I was born in Torrance, California, October 3rd, 1941. AT: 00:16 And where, where is, is Torrance? HI: 00:18 Outside of Los Angeles. AT: 00:21 And so when, um, when the war broke out, where was your family sent? HI: 00:29 Uh, where were we living? AT: 00:31 Sent. HI: 00:32 Oh, sent? Well after, uh, when they got the notice we, they first went to, we all went to Santa Anita Racetrack and of course, you know, you could only take what you could carry. My mother always said she carried me and my baby clothes and my father carried my older brother, he was a year older, and his baby clothes. AT: 00:56 Was it just the two of you? HI: 00:58 The two children, yes. And my father drove a truck there. While he was an auto mechanic, he had his own gas station and auto repair shop. My mother was, uh, became the bookkeeper after she graduated from high school. That' ; s where they met and married and married later, 1939. Umm ... my father always said that when they first went to the racetrack, they didn' ; t even bother cleaning out the manure from the stables. So my uncle and my father helped clean out the stables and it was one family per stable. And we stayed there six months until the barracks were built in Colorado. And so then after six months we took the train to Colorado. My understanding is that the shades had to be down. And you couldn' ; t look out. Um ... my brother was born in Amache in 1943, um, my mother says that this thing she remembers most is standing lines everywhere you went, you stand in lines, to latrine, to the laundry, to the meals. I was a baby. I don' ; t really remember anything. I only know stories. There is a picture of me playing with a little broken toy that somebody must' ; ve donated. Um, my father being an auto mechanic was able to get a job driving a truck in camp and he had a cousin in Colorado who was a farmer. So he was able to get a job with his cousin. So he had a job and a place to stay. So he stayed there for a year and then he was free to go. He drove to Chicago to find a job and a place to stay and he said, never go let your gas tank go less than half a tank. Because as he was driving there, he never knew if, if the service station would give him gas or not, would serve him. Some would, some wouldn' ; t. So he found a place to stay on the West Side of Chicago, which is where we lived. AT: 04:16 Where on the West Side? HI: 04:22 California and Van Buren. I went to elementary school. I was the only Japanese, well except for my uncle who also um, came to the West Side to live, uh, in fact, he stayed with mom for awhile. He was five years older than me, so mom took care of my uncle for awhile. Um, I, my older brother also, um, uh, well we were the only family in this whole school, Calhoun School. My uncle got beat up a lot. Oh, we were family of four children by now. My, my have a younger sister. Sharon was born in Granada just in 1944. So she was laid out just, um, she was born just after my mother was got out of the camp. Um ... my earliest memory really is of Chicago sitting in the yard making mud pies. AT: 05:41 Outside of your home? HI: 05:41 Outside in Chicago, in the yard. I didn' ; t really feel that, uh, people were prejudiced against us. I know there were a lot of Italians and Germans living in the same neighborhood and everyone was friendly to me. So I didn' ; t have a problem with that. My older brother - my mother says, we all spoke Japanese until I was five years old. My older brother was, was uh, a, taken to a, what is it to, uh, the speech class. Had to take speech class and my mother felt that was so disgraceful that from that point on we just spoke English. So I know no Japanese at all. AT: 06:43 And at what point - so you were very young and um, HI: 06:48 Yes. AT: 06:48 In camps. So at what point did you learn about what your family had experienced? HI: 06:58 Uh, my parents never talked about it. I mean my Aunt Jessie Morisato, would talk to me about it. And I, when I remember in high school - I went to Marshall High School - I would look in the history book looking for some information on it and there was nothing, nothing at all in the history books. Now my mother was valedictorian of her class and I was Valedictorian in my class and I wrote a speech which the principal had to vet and I wrote about going to camp and she insisted that all of it had to be taken out. I could not give that speech. Um, after that I went to, um, maybe pier, first two years at Navy Pier, and then, a year and half downstate where I got my elementary education certificate. Then I taught at um, Elmwood Park, no, Susan taught at Elmwood Park, I have forgotten now. Anyway, then I taught at Bellwood, in Bellwood and then came to Chicago to teach because I didn' ; t like the drive. AT: 08:37 Um, so can you, uh, can you describe what, what it was like growing up, uh, on the West Side of Chicago? HI: 08:51 As I said, I was, I was fine. I had friends. I think my uncle, as I said, my uncle had really harder time. AT: 09:04 Were you aware that you were Japanese or that? HI: 09:08 Yes. You know, I was, it wasn' ; t until I was eight years old did I realize my name was not Tatty Mary, that' ; s what they all said. Tatty Mary, instead of Tademaru. So they always mispronounced the name and I must' ; ve felt guilt because I remember being very, very, very shy and the gym teacher always coming to me and telling me to sit up straight. AT: 09:37 And your friends, um, did you uh, did you know other Japanese Americans? HI: 09:43 No, no. None at all except when we would have a cousin or something come and visit. In fact, that' ; s one reason I started to join the uh, Midwest Buddhist temple. I knew we were members, but we' ; d never gone because my father worked very hard and Sundays, he' ; s working. So I started going on my own, on the bus to the Midwest Buddhist temple and there I met Japanese people. AT: 10:19 How long was that commute? HI: 10:21 I was 15. Oh, it was, we just take the bus to Ogden avenue and Ogden Ave to North Avenue. AT: 10:33 And that was when you were a teenager? HI: 10:35 15. AT: 10:39 Um, did you do any extracurriculars or any activities outside of school? HI: 10:45 I went to the art institute once a week since I was 10. They didn' ; t have things for girls. There was, there was no girls team of any kind. I remember when I was 10 years old, I wanted to learn to swim because I felt that was important. My mother took me to the YWCA and obviously they didn' ; t want me in because they said I had athlete' ; s feet, which I did. But it was a, a sign. I remember taking ballet lessons with a friend' ; s mother. AT: 11:33 And your siblings, did they do anything? HI: 11:39 My older brother, my younger brother, were allowed to go to the park. They had bikes. They were free to do whatever they wished. They could play wherever. Whereas I was restricted to the home. AT: 11:54 And your younger sister? HI: 11:58 Wherever I went, I did take my younger sister with me. So if I was invited to birthday party, younger sister came along. AT: 12:06 And what are the, what are their names of your siblings? HI: 12:12 Ah, my older brother was Roy. He was a year older. Uh, my younger brother, Eugene, was born in 1943 he was a year and a half younger. And my sister was born in 1944. Karen. AT: 12:31 And did you, did you ever talk about um, the incarceration with your siblings at all? I know everyone was children. HI: 12:46 Very little. Yes. I mean, of course they' ; re interested as I am in the history of it. Never with my mother. She never wanted to talk about it or my father. Except this one time the, my mother was in a book for her Valedictorian speech from elementary school was published and the granddaughter of this published of this author wanted to remake it. So she would have, she had questions that my mother had to ask and answer. So one of the questions was, what is the happiest thing you remember from camp? My mother said nothing. No happy memories. AT: 13:38 And when, uh, the principal censored your speech, HI: 13:47 Dr Lawley. Yes. AT: 13:55 What, what was your response, how did you, how did you feel and how, how did you handle that? HI: 14:05 I was very obedient. You know, this is 1958. You don' ; t fight the authority. AT: 14:18 Did you understand why? HI: 14:20 Oh yes, yes, I understood the prejudice. She did not want to make waves. She later became a superintendent. Yes. You know. AT: 14:39 So somehow talking about that would be controversial or? HI: 14:43 She must' ; ve thought so. AT: 14:49 And did you, that you know of, did your siblings have any kinds of experiences like that in Chicago? HI: 14:56 No, no, but I doubt that they tried to talk about the camp. AT: 15:17 And then, um, so you said when you were 15 years old you got involved with the Midwest Buddhist temple, HI: 15:27 Uh huh AT: 15:28 And that was the first time that you were spending time with other Japanese Americans. Um, can you talk a little bit more about that experience of, of getting involved with? HI: 15:40 Oh, well I, I certainly enjoyed it uh. You know, all the different activities, the Ginza, the Obon, and of course they had, as my husband mentioned, uh, almost weekend dances. So that was fun. AT: 16:00 And what was that like having gone through what, you know, your childhood of not, um, being around other folks and families like yours to all of a sudden, um, you know, kind of being immersed in that community? HI: 16:19 Oh, I enjoyed it tremendously. Broadening. AT: 16:25 Broadening? HI: 16:25 It was broadening, yes! AT: 16:25 In, in what way? HI: 16:25 Besides, it was nice to - to do different things. In high school there were two other, two other Japanese, I remember that now. AT: 16:44 And so then were your friends growing up, um, like what kind of ethnicities? HI: 16:52 Oh, Caucasian, um, Jewish. AT: 17:07 And was that, was identity ever like, uh, very present or understood? Or did people not think about it or talk about it? HI: 17:18 What do you mean? AT: 17:19 Like, um, like in, in your, in your friend circles, um. HI: 17:29 You' ; re asking did I feel Japanese? No, I just felt like American like they were. AT: 17:35 Um, so Marshall High School that' ; s on the South Side? HI: 17:48 West Side. AT: 17:49 The West Side. And then was it a big change going to college? HI: 17:55 Oh yes. That' ; s why I didn' ; t want to go away. I stayed, I stayed home for the first two years. I was only 16, so - AT: 18:02 You were 16 when you started so. Was that, was that typical to be so young? HI: 18:10 Um, yes I, I, uh, I skipped a couple of grades. They didn' ; t have enrichment programs like they do now. So their way of, of coping with less intelligent was just push him up a grade. AT: 18:33 Did, and did you start off on a, on a track of education, um, like to become a teacher? HI: 18:40 Oh yes. I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. AT: 18:43 Do you know where that desire or passion came from? HI: 18:46 First Grade. AT: 18:51 What happened in first grade? HI: 18:53 Oh, I love learning. I love my teacher. AT: 18:55 Was - that was at Calhoun? HI: 19:04 Uh hum AT: 19:04 Do you remember your teacher' ; s name? HI: 19:06 Isn' ; t that funny? No, I think she was Irish. AT: 19:12 And, and so from school, what was your first, first teaching position? Your first teaching position? HI: 19:27 Oh, at Bellwood elementary. Um, Bellwood, uh, Illinois. Um, I was a fifth grade teacher. AT: 19:35 How long were you there? HI: 19:39 I only, I only stayed there half a year because I didn' ; t like to drive. So I transferred to a school close or West Side school close by. AT: 19:50 And what has that been like teaching in Chicago over the years? HI: 19:58 It was, you know, it was a lot easier when I first started teaching. I remember I had 40 kids in my classroom. And you think that' ; s horrible, right? But they were good kids and I had no trouble because you have their respect of the parents. All you have to say to a child who was misbehaving, " ; do you want me to call your parents?" ; Nope. Very different from today where parents don' ; t seem to respect teachers. AT: 20:28 How would you say that it' ; s changed over the years in your career? HI: 20:34 Um, I would say that was the biggest thing when I first started. Parents always back the teachers. Nowadays you get kids whose parents will say, my darling would never do that. They would take the kids words over the teachers. AT: 20:56 And which, which subjects would you teach? HI: 21:02 I taught kindergarten for four years. I loved that. I taught third grade. I will, well, I, I taught a lot of grades and then I became a teacher librarian. I stayed home with the children for 12 years. And then I got my masters in library science at what was then Rosary College. AT: 21:27 And for those different grades, does that mean you' ; re teaching all of the different subjects? So math, science? HI: 21:33 Oh yes, the elementary. Elementary, yes. It was always elementary. In fact, the first time was I got to teach PE, which is probably my worst subject [laughing]. AT: 21:46 Did you have a favorite subject to teach kids? HI: 21:50 Oh, that' ; s tough. I like all the subjects, but I like math a lot and I like art a lot. Science a lot. AT: 22:02 Um, did you have flexibility in, in curriculum? So for, for example, for, for history, were you able to teach about the internment? HI: 22:13 Oh yes, it' ; s, that part is totally different now, of course, because they teach that in eighth grade. It is a part of the curriculum, so that' ; s good. AT: 22:24 So have you, have you, have you taught that subject? HI: 22:26 I don' ; t teach eighth grade. AT: 22:29 Okay, um, so you, you never - HI: 22:33 Nope, I' ; d given speeches for the eighth grade teacher. AT: 22:38 As a part of the lesson? HI: 22:39 As a part, as a part of the, the lesson, yes. AT: 22:41 So was, what was that like for you? HI: 22:47 Like this only, I was more composed then. AT: 23:01 Did you - when you had children, were you sharing with them about your family' ; s experiences? HI: 23:08 Oh, we never had it. Um, when it would come up in that curriculum, I think that' ; s when we talked about it. AT: 23:22 Was that something like they would learn in school and then ask questions? HI: 23:29 Umhum, or if there' ; s something like this, we could take them to that. We took our, all our grandchildren, just not all three of our grandchildren last week to see this exhibit. AT: 23:46 And why is that, um, why is that important to you to take them and share with them? HI: 23:59 So that they understand our history and to make sure that this never happens again. AT: 24:17 And I' ; m going to pose the same question to you that I did to your husband. Um, if you, if you could leave, um, your children and your grandchildren, your family with some kind of message or legacy, what would you want to leave them on? HI: 24:42 I think my answer would be the same, but they should understand what has happened in the past so that it won' ; t happen again. I feel very fortunate. The most part I have not felt the prejudice, but I do remember when I taught third grade for the, in Chicago, my very first year, there was this one teacher. She was extremely mean to me. She was a first grade teacher. I never understood why until the end of the year. She said to me, she was sorry, but she had a son who died in World War II and that was her reason. AT: 25:43 There, is there anything else that you would want to, to add or, or share? um - HI: 26:30 I remember when I was going to college, downstate, to Urbana-Champaign. So often I got questions from other students. How long have you been in our country? I got that question an awful lot. And I would say all my life, my mother was born in California, my father was born in Hawai' ; i, so I' ; m third generation. AT: 27:21 And um, do you mind, actually before we wrap up, we talk a little bit more about your, your parents and their stories? HI: 27:35 Uh hum. AT: 27:35 Um, so just about where, where they were born and, and how they got to, um, Torrance. HI: 27:45 Ah, um, I' ; m told that in 1896 on my father' ; s, on my mother' ; s side. Your father, you' ; re, nope, I' ; ve forgotten the grandfather, your father, my grandfather and his father came on the second boat out of Hiroshima, went through Seattle, down to California and, and worked on a farm there. Um, then in 1916 he was 10 years old at the time. In 1916 he went back to Hiroshima and picked up my grandma. He didn' ; t trust picture brides and then they came to California, and farmed, uh, farmed there. Uh, on my father' ; s side in 1896, uh, they went to Hawai' ; i and worked in the pineapple fields. When my father was born, he was in fact - well not born - when he was about five years old so. He went back to, he was sent back to Japan to be raised by his grandparents and then he came to United States, what, when he was about 18 years old or so? Learned a trade, bought his gas station and so forth. AT: 29:28 Did he have experience with, with that kind of work in Japan or did he learn it new? HI: 29:36 He flew an airplane here. He was, he, I know he liked to fly airplanes. Where did he learn? HI' ; s Husband: 29:43 Japan! HI: 29:44 He learned to, to do auto mechanic work in Japan? I don' ; t know. HI' ; s Husband: 29:51 No, no, no HI: 29:52 No, no, here? He don' ; t know. He don' ; t know. AT: 29:53 And, where, where and how did your parents meet? HI: 30:02 As she, uh, graduated from high school and went to work for him as his bookkeeper. AT: 30:10 So that' ; s they met that way HI: 30:12 They met that way. AT: 30:17 Um, and do you have um, relatives who are also in the states that in the, um, you know, those earlier years that you know of, any aunts and uncles who came around the late 19th century? HI: 30:36 Um, any other relatives? No, grandma had six kids. She had a brother who came in, I hear, from Mexico but then was sent back to Japan. But he had, I guess, stepped on a nail or something and died on the way back. AT: 31:04 And how most of what you know about your family' ; s history is that just from asking her? Have you done any research or - HI: 31:14 No, I have not done research. My brother does that. AT: 31:20 It seems each family has a, and genealogist. HI: 31:24 Umhum AT: 31:30 And, um, have you, have you ever been to Japan to see who were ... HI: 31:42 Oh, we' ; ve been to Japan, what, twice, uh, we happened to Hiroshima, but we don' ; t speak Japanese and I did not know where they lived. Well we have cousins apparently, we have four cousins who live still in Hiroshima. The last time we were in Japan, I tried to contact a cousin of mine, Hirofumi, and I learned that he had died and I didn' ; t even know that. But if we ever go back we will try to contact them. My brother has visited them. AT: 32:26 And in your, in your adult life, um, how, how would you describe your, your connection to your Japanese heritage? HI: 32:36 Well, I don' ; t speak Japanese. I don' ; t understand it hardly. Um, I think it' ; s because I don' ; t, my parents didn' ; t want me to. Um, but I do - my children all learn among. I have three girls. They all took Japanese dancing. We always went to Obon and the Ginza at the church. AT: 33:09 Are you still involved with MBT or still a member? HI: 33:13 Still a member, yes. Less involvement. But I did work the Ginza last week. AT: 33:20 Thank you. We' ; re always grateful to have volunteers. HI: 33:25 And we still dance in Obon, which I have been doing since I was 15. AT: 33:31 And, and why has that been important for you to share with your children? HI: 33:36 Oh, I always want them to keep their heritage, to remember. We still celebrate, you know, new years cooking mochi all that, has to be the first bite. AT: 34:08 I think. I think that those are the questions I have for you unless there' ; s anything else you' ; d like to add? HI: 34:19 Yeah, just a lot harder than I thought. AT: 34:23 Thank you so much for sharing and for taking the time. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IdenoHelen20170824.xml IdenoHelen20170824.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ideno, Kazuo Gene (8/24/2017)</a>
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Ideno, Helen (8/24/2017)
Description
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Helen Ideno is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American born in Torrance, CA shortly before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. During WWII, she and her family were incarcerated at Santa Anita and Amache, after which they resettled in Chicago. In this interview she shares what she knows of her family's incarceration experience and her own memories of growing up on Chicago's West Side where there were few other Japanese Americans. She recounts deciding to become more actively involved with the Midwest Buddhist Temple as a teenager, through which she was able to participate in Japanese American community activities. She also describes her experiences as a teacher and the ways in which she has tried to pass her heritage on to her children and grandchildren.
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2017-08-24
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ideno, Kazuo Gene
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Crystal City
Seabrook
Sumo
Kendo
Aurora
Poston
Hyde Park
Park Ridge
San Francisco
Sports
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/24/2017 Ideno, Kazuo Gene (8/24/2017) 1:09:31 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came For Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery, in conjunction with the exhibit < ; i> ; Then They Came for Me< ; /i> ; . Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949 Nisei Crystal City Seabrook Sumo Kendo Aurora Poston Hyde Park Park Ridge San Francisco Sports Ideno, Kazuo Gene Takada, Anna video 1:|9(6)|19(5)|30(3)|43(7)|54(4)|64(2)|74(13)|87(13)|100(3)|111(13)|120(14)|131(16)|142(16)|151(14)|164(11)|176(5)|192(3)|204(10)|214(9)|228(4)|238(5)|269(16)|286(14)|298(1)|308(7)|323(2)|338(7)|357(2)|366(3)|378(11)|388(7)|398(6)|415(1)|428(15)|443(2)|455(10)|465(8)|476(5)|487(17)|499(12)|515(4)|530(13)|539(5)|553(15)|565(11)|584(3)|599(11)|611(7)|625(4)|639(11)|656(6)|665(16)|674(10)|690(2)|702(8)|715(10)|735(3)|748(1)|757(11)|768(4)|778(4)|786(13)|796(8)|806(1)|816(10)|828(4)|838(2)|850(13)|867(6) 0 https://vimeo.com/302037149/ab1d36e3da Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/302037149" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kazuo Ideno was born in San Francisco, California. His father was born on the island of Shikoku and his mother in California although she was raised and educated in Japan. His family was incarcerated at Crystal City Internment Camp located in Texas. His father was a kendo instructor and leader in the community. After imprisonment, his family moved to Seabrook, New Jersey for an opportunity to work at a cannery. Soon after, the family relocated to Chicago, Illinois where he spent a lot of time participating in sports and extracurricular activities with Japanese peers. It was in Chicago that he met a classmate who hadn’t been imprisoned in a camp which confused him. Ideno discusses his feelings of guilt as a youth and his “gung-ho” attitude to “prove” his loyalty to the U.S, alienating himself from his Japanese culture which he discusses in regret. He concludes with a message to future generations to never forget what happened and to be aware of the historical issue of prejudice in the United States. Kazuo Ideno:Okay. My birth name is Kazuo Ideno. Uh, my adoptive first name Gene. I did that my sophomore year in high school because I felt that we should have an English name rather than just the ethnic name alone. So to the consternation of my parents. I' ; m sure they were, why did I adopt that? But I did, my father was born in uh Mats- Matsuyama, Ehime on the island of Shikoku, uh, in Japan. And he came to the United States, San Francisco in 1919. Yeah, with his father. And he, uh, he was a kendo instructor and he opened up a dojo in San Francisco. He got married to, I can' ; t remember her name. He had two kids, boy and a girl, but his wife died, uh, I think in 1931 ' ; 32. So he sent those two kids, my half brother and sister back to Japan, raised by his mother in Japan. KI:He met my mother in 1938 and they got married in ' ; 38. And I came, I was born August 21st, 1939. So the war happened with two years afterwards and my mother was born in Lodi, California, but she was educated in Japan. She, she was sent to Japan by her parents when she was five years old. So she' ; s like a Kibei and pretty much pretty Japanese. She, her English is not very good or was not very good. So she came back to San Francisco and she met my dad and they had myself and then my brother, younger brother in 1941, uh- the war broke out and the FBI came and grabbed my father and sent him down in San Diego. Uh, subsequently was shipped to Santa Fe and kept there from ' ; 42 to ' ; 43. Since the FBI grabbed my dad, my mother, and I' ; m not sure, I can' ; t remember what she said, how we got back to Lodi with her parents who were farmers and subsequently, um, we were taken to a camp in Rohwer, Arkansas. KI:And we were there. One of my first memories and maybe it was because of the trauma, not seeing my father, that I when, I remember being in a truck or not. Could have been my grandfather' ; s pickup, that took us to Lodi, I' ; m not sure. That was my first memory of anything and the second memory is being on a train at night. And I remember asking, my mother where' ; s Otousan, my father and she kind of gave me a, you know, oh he' ; ll be along shortly type of answer to kind of appease my concern. Um, then we were in Arkansas and I remember bits and pieces of my experience in Arkansas. I remember it was damp and kind of cold. I remember visiting my aunts and uncles in the, what do you call it? AT:Barracks? KI:Huh? Barracks. Yeah. And then I don' ; t remember the experience of going to to Crystal City, Texas from recreation of my mom' ; s saying that she got a letter from my dad saying, I will meet you in Crystal City. KI:So the government allowed my mom and my, my brother and I to take the train down to Crystal City to join him. That was in March. So we were in Rohwer for about almost a year. Uh, my dad in the meantime was in San Francis-, uh, uh, Santa Fe. And they told him because he was in - very much involved in the community and everything else that he can either go back to Japan or stay here and he said, I' ; m going to stay here. So that' ; s why they sent him to Crystal City and then notified that we would join him there in Crystal City. Some of my experiences of my dad was kind of interesting. Oh in the late about 1990 we had a person come in, interview my dad and about his experience in San Die- uh Santa Fe. And he said, she said, do you remember this incident where the three Isseis were shot and killed in Santa Fe? KI:And he says, no. He says, he does remember though, being on a crew of men, they had to dig three trenches and he didn' ; t know what it was for. And obviously he was in the grave detail on digging their graves because as soon as they finished, they were dismissed then. Uh, they didn' ; t see the placement placement of their three bodies in then slowly put the, connected the dots and said, that must' ; ve that, it must have been the purpose. My dad there. They realized that. One of the unfortunate incidents at Santa Fe was that there was a drunken sentry or guard, U.S. soldier for whatever reasons. But as my dad was passing by, he bayoneted my dad in the back now, he didn' ; t penetrate deeply, but he did stab him in the back. The understanding as far as my father was concerned that he was, this guard was reprimanded and sent out of the camp, now that I didn' ; t learn until this interview, I, he never mentioned in his whole life, neither did my mother ' ; til this person interviewed my folks. So that was, I looked in the back and sure enough it was a scar back there over where he was stabbed. So those were the kind of times and experience that he had. KI:We joined him in Crystal City and this place had Italians, a lot of Germans and Japanese from Peru. And I think there were some other, smaller groups there in this camp. There' ; s a book I think I saw in your place called Train to Crystal City. And from there I read that book and I learned a lot that this camp was for trading of the people either back to Germany or to Italy or to Japan. The lady that wrote that book gave a very good account of what had happened there. I was totally unaware of it even till I read that book. I was never aware of all the things that had happened. One of the things that I asked my mother, well oh, how did things go along with the groups is, well the Japanese primarily did not mix or communicate with the Germans too much, but they did communicate a lot with the Italians. KI:There was more social interaction with the Italians than there were with the Germans. One of the interesting things she, she, she met mentioned was that on Saturdays, I don' ; t know if it was every Saturday or once a month or whatever, but on Saturdays the Germans would march-parade around the perimeter of the camp on the fence with a giant swastika flag and they would just march around. That was a memory of my mom' ; s and that' ; s where probably, so they were pretty staunch, uh, Nazi Germans I guess, or whatever. And then she said one day they were gone, the Germans were gone. Now our camp was unique that it had a swimming pool and that was due to the Germans. They, they said we want some recreation and you just ask the government for the supplies and they did the construction. So that was a very nice pool. When I told my wife about, we had a swimming pool, she said: " ; Oh wow." ; I, didn' ; t - we probably were one of the few camps that had a swimming pool, we had like a big swimming pool and when I visited, KI:Crystal City was three, four years ago. You could just see the remnants of the concrete of the swimming pool. They' ; re just still a little bit of traces of it left and there isn' ; t too much other than the orchard grove that was there. That' ; s all I knew where my - my, where we stayed. I knew the location of it because there was a sumo thing. And I know we lived close by, so there' ; s a map that' ; s provided there. And I could see the location of where our particular homes were. Now listen to the description of the kind of places my wife stayed at Amache compared to ours. So we' ; re in a very plush, very nice place. We had a toilet that was shared by the people, it was like a duplex and we shared that toilet. I' ; m not sure about the stove or cooking. I, I don' ; t remember too much about eating. That was not in my memory bank about eating. There was a community shower and bath outside. I remember that. All this was just a toilet in our house and it was like a two bedroom, a two room duplex, I guess you might call it, where we stayed. KI:We had sumo, which I engaged in. My dad was the camp accountant. He kept all the books and all this stuff. That was his job. Uh, I think, I don' ; t know how much you get paid. You get, if you got a job, you get paid for whatever you do. Uh, I remember little things that they made. And the thing that I remember most or the feeling was I think that age where I as a child, say " ; we are in jail, we are in prison and therefore we must have done something wrong" ; . And then the explanation was that you know, we, I' ; m Japanese and therefore I' ; m an enemy of the United States and I' ; m born here so I don' ; t have to prove that I' ; m an American. And I think for quite a while after getting out, I kind of turned my back on my culture and just try to prove that I' ; m, I' ; m not that perceived Japanese that people might have concept of, I' ; m an American. I kind of turned my back on my culture. My mom wanted me to take Japanese afterwards and I kind of fought it tooth and nail. KI:Although my folks only spoke Japanese, my cousins here in Chicago said, we didn' ; t understand you for a year, said all you spoke was Japanese and you know, a little bit of English which was broken, whatever. So I didn' ; t realize that. I thought I spoke perfect English. We were one of the last ones to leave the camp in Crystal City. I remember the family across the street moved out. They had a much bigger apartment, so our place, so we moved there and they had more bedrooms. So we stayed over there and pretty soon I remember friends I knew, that they were all going, we' ; re still in camp. Yeah, I think we left either late ' ; 45 or it early ' ; 46. The Seabrook farms in New Jersey offered jobs, guaranteed a job, in the cannery that they had, you had to sign a one year contract. So my mom and dad signed the contract to go to Seabrook Farms. KI:I' ; d asked my father and mother, " ; why did you go to Seabrook Farms, why didn' ; t we go back to California like everyone, most people did" ; and said, well, there' ; s no guarantee of a job back in California. They felt that maybe the prejudice and hatred was still as bad in California. My Dad wanted to see New York and Washington D.C, so he said this would be a good opportunity to do that. So that was why he opted to go to New Jersey, he worked at the cannery. Years later, like I said, my dad was a, had a dojo in San Francisco in kendo. And he, when he came to Chicago, he opened up the dojo started with, they said he' ; s one of the founding fathers of kendo here in Chicago. And years later I asked my mother, I said, mom, why didn' ; t dad have my brother and me do kendo? And she said to me, " ; he didn' ; t want you to be grabbed by the FBI like he was." ; So if I don' ; t know that, they won' ; t grab us" ; . So it was that, I guess that fear, his experience that made him not, not have us participate in that. So I said, oh my God, I would, ya know, I would have loved to have learned that but he kind of kept us away. So we were in New Jersey for a year and we settled in Chicago and I asked my mother, they notice it. Oh, why did you opt for Chicago? Said, well, they were going to earn all the money they can. They both worked at New Jersey and they were going to earn enough money to go all the way back to California to live there. They' ; ll have some capital and just have to do something when you get to California. But in the meantime, my aunt, my mother' ; s sister, were farmers, which she and her husband were farmers and they raised enough money to get a farm in Monee, Illinois about 50 miles outside of Chicago. KI:And in the meantime they had a boarding house and that' ; s how they earned some additional income when the Japanese, that were coming from the camps and provided a place to stay. And my aunt wrote my mother and said, why don' ; t you take over our boarding house and you get some more money and you go, I said, oh, okay. Well my mother said, all right, so we came to Chicago, at, June of 1947 and my aunt and her family moved out to farms, so I think it was 1954 there. Finally there was re urban renewal and they, my folks made enough money in the boarding house to buy a house. And we moved a block over it from what was, you' ; d stay in the boarding house. Years later, I had asked my mother, I said, " ; Mom, if you were your endeavor raising all this money to go to California, why didn' ; t you, why didn' ; t we go to California?" ; KI:And my mother turned to me and said this is when I was a sophomore, just going to sophomore year, she looked at me and says, " ; because you didn' ; t want to go, you wanted to stay with your friends here in Chicago" ; . So they defer to me. And rather than moving to California because they had enough money to go, they bought the house in Chicago and I felt like this ya-know. But also my dad kinda established roots here in Chicago. He was, how should I say, classically trained? I guess he came from a fairly well to-do family in Japan. So he knew all the artsy, acting? Is it classical acting? KI:Uh, the, KI:well, I think it' ; s called utai. The very classical Japanese chanting or singing. So he was quite a versatile man. He played the, what do you call it? The flute? Japanese. Can' ; t remember the name of that. He played that, he played harmonica. I thought he was a pretty talented man. But very quiet and very mild-mannered father. He kind of kind of left me alone. It was my mother that did all the disciplining and everything else. She was the staunch one. KI:Uh, KI:We moved to the South Side. We lived right next to the Midwest, not Midwest, Chicago Buddhist Church in Hyde Park. And that' ; s where I grew up. I got what I joined the boy scouts or cub scouts, boy scouts, because it was in the church next door, so it was very convenient. Went to grade school and the Hyde Park High school, I had a cluster of friends, very close friends, Japanese friends. So we pretty much stayed together. We didn' ; t, I didn' ; t mix too much with the Caucasians or other friends. So we had these lifelong bonds with these guys and that was our life and we never got into trouble. I don' ; t think we did. Yeah, it was very minor if we did and we did a lot of stuff together. It' ; s a memory I cherish very much that I was very fortunate that I had good friends, Japanese friends and we stayed together. With a couple of them KI:I still communicate today where we have reunions in Vegas and get together and kind of talk over old times and sing old songs or to the dances. And one of my experiences in school was that, like I said earlier that I didn' ; t realize I spoke mostly Japanese when we came here. My own cousins didn' ; t recognize what I was saying. In the third grade, my first grade I was referred to a speech teacher and I could not understand why I was sent to a special assist speech teacher in school with it. Cause within that class as a group, there was people that would stammer and stutter. And I said to myself, I don' ; t stammer, I don' ; t stutter, I spoke perfect English. Part of my mind is concerned, I did. I didn' ; t know I was rolling my r' ; s, you know, and uh, they helped me through. KI:But in my mind I said, I don' ; t know why I' ; m here. They sent me, I guess I should be here. I spoke perfect English as far as my ear was concerned. So, that' ; s a child' ; s mentality, I imagine not realizing one' ; s own shortcomings and faults. Well that that was one of the experiences. And I pretty much stayed with the Japanese community. I remember growing up, my socialization was primarily with Japanese, even through high school. I think it was only through college, senior year in college that I started mixing with Caucasians and others, expanding my social world, but primarily it was almost all focused on Japanese friends and family. That was pretty much it. Anna Takada:Where did you go to college? KI:University of Illinois. Two years at Navy Pier. KI:I finished two years of my bachelor' ; s at Champaign, stayed another year for my masters and I happened to meet my wife down there and got acquainted and she-- lucky enough to marry me. And we got up here, and I started teaching at the grammar school for a year, four years at Marshall High School, and the rest of my career at Prosser High School. I was a physical education teacher, coach, primarily basketball for 21, 22 years. And then the school asked me to be a counselor. So let' ; s go back to school and get, coun, counselor. Yeah. For eight years until retirement. I just consider myself a very lucky man. All the things that in my life. AT:Thank you for, for sharing all of that. That was, I didn' ; t even need to prompt you at all that was great. If it' ; s all right, I would like to go back a little bit- KI:Oh, sure. AT:Just to, you know, some clarifying questions. and all of that. AT:So, let' ; s start with- AT:So do I have that right? You were born in ' ; 39? KI:Yes. AT:Okay. KI:San Francisco AT:In San Francisco. KI:Saint Francis hospital AT:[laughs] And you have two younger brothers. KI:One, I have one natural brother and then I have a half brother who' ; s, Jerry' ; s gotta be about 90 something. AT:And, um, AT:And so what year was your younger brother born? KI:He was born in 1941 but he passed away 12 years ago. Well he was born December 16th, died in September. AT:And so, so you were, you were very young at the, the breakout- KI:Outbreak, yes. AT:Do you remember or do you have any memories of, of your father leaving? KI:No, like I said, you know, I, all I remember is asking my mother where' ; s otousan, you know, where' ; s, where' ; s father? And she kind of just said, " ; oh, he' ; ll join us shortly." ; That was her answer to me. I remember that trying to alleviate my concern and that was on a train. I just, you know, there are certain memories that get embedded. I remember it was nighttime. We were on a train and I was, I remember asking my mom that question so I don' ; t know but that, maybe it' ; s because of the trauma that it' ; s embedded in my head. AT:And now how much does, how much did you, did you learn anything later? More about why he was, selected and detained? KI:You know, my folks did not speak very much about their experience. Only if I asked them a little bit, some questions. Certainly I learned a heck of a lot when this moment, I can' ; t remember her name now. She interviewed my mom and dad about their experience because I guess this relates to my dad one of the few that got grabbed by the FBI and sent to Santa Fe and she was kind of investigating the death of those three men that were shot by the guards, sentries, I guess they said. They were walking out the gates and the guard said, halt. And these are three Isseis, Japanese don' ; t understand English. They don' ; t know what " ; halt" ; means. So they continue walking. So they were shot. Killed. That' ; s about pretty much, my memory of it. Of that. Until my mom says we' ; re going to join dad. KI:I know my dad was a very proud man. But I think it kind of broke him a little bit. I always felt, I remember I said, you know, my dad' ; s got a kinda menial job here in Chicago and thing and it wasn' ; t, I think folks, he never said anything, but it was, people were telling me rather about accomplishments about my dad and stuff. And how much respect that the community had toward him for his stuff and I guess as a kid you don' ; t realize all that, the value of your father in terms of how ya know the esteem that others have for him. All I know him is as my father, so I, I kind of feel bad about myself, thinking about my dad that way. AT:Was it just the dojo that he ran? Did he have it, did he, um, have other work or was- KI:Yeah, uh, he, he taught classes and singing the classical Japanese singing- AT:In San Francisco? KI:I don' ; t know if in San Francisco that part I don' ; t know I know he did it here in Chicago. And, I think he did a little bit in camp too. And also the acting, he did a lot of acting, he did a lot of, female parts. And I remember as a kid I would kind of cower over this, you know, I, I liked the male guy with the, samurai, the hero so to speak, my dad' ; s playing a female. I remember other older Japanese saying " ; Hey your dad' ; s good" ; . No no, that' ; s, that' ; s not easy to do. That' ; s considered a very classic, I guess the, what is it? Noh, what is it Helen? HI:Kabuki. KI:Kabuki, where played female roles. So I thought, oh, okay. I wasn' ; t sure. Well, but I mean obviously you know the people had a lot more respect for what my dad did than his own kids. AT:I also wanted to ask you more about Crystal City. So you said that people didn' ; t really mix that much across- KI:I' ; m going by what my mother said because obviously I just hung around kids, you know. The Japanese kids that were there. My mother' ; s account was that, there were some social interaction with the Italians but not with the Germans. Now, I read her the book saying that there were some, but it was not on a wide scale. We did things together as a group. Pardon me? Helen Ideno:Swimming was segregated. KI:Swimming was what? HI:Segregated. KI:Oh, is that what she said? I don' ; t remember that. I just remember going to the swimming pool. HI:The Germans would not swim with others. KI:Well, also that speaking about swimming, we were in a pool, that pool. And my dad, would ride my younger brother on his back going into the deep end and I would have a tantrum, saying, why doesn' ; t dad take me? He gets, my brother gets to ride on my dad' ; s back float in the deep end and I don' ; t, and this older man there, saw me, he felt sorry for me. So he said, get on his back, little realizing how much bigger. And so he started to, start out into the deep end and we started sinking. I was too big for him. And we started to go down and I remember, uh, we started to go under and lifeguards jumped in the pool and pulled us out. The feedback of that was I always had a fear of water, since that time. Only through probably in high school, my, my friends, my good friends got me to overcome my fear of water. Assuming I would never go on the deep end and never go down any water deeper than my head. I had just a terrible phobia and I still have apprehension today, but I' ; ve overcome it. I would say one of the benefits of that, if there could be considered a benefit is that I know that fear, that sense of the water. And since I was a physical ed teacher teaching kids that when I ever encountered someone with that similar fear of deep water, it taught me all the different tools for how to teach them to overcome it. And I think I used a lot of techniques that I' ; ve never seen anybody else do. It' ; s a very slow process. But I think I taught a lot of kids how to overcome that fear. I remember one kid coming in years later thanking me for, so that' ; s one of the benefits. I never realized it, but I just- AT:So you remember the swimming pool well. Do you remember anything else about the, in terms of the physical layout? KI:Yeah, I remember, well my mother relayed an incident where my brother was climbing the barbed wire fence because he always liked to climb and the guard in the tower. Here' ; s a two, three year old climbing a fence and the guard turned his machine gun on my my-brother climbing this fence. My mother panicked because she doesn' ; t know. All she knows is the guard is turning, aiming at my younger brother, she, I think she screamed at him to get down. Eventually he got down, he climbed up. My brother had a famous reputation in the camp, always getting in trouble. He would climb up on the roof of the house. Barely, couldn' ; t get down. And he' ; d have to get people to come and grab him, pull him off. Not only, he put his foot in a pipe that was in the ground, couldn' ; t get it out. They had to come and break up and. So he had a reputation in the camp. I was more the do-gooder. He was the one that was a mischievous one always getting into trouble. I remember going to shows, I remember parades or festivals. I remember going to a Japanese school. I' ; m left-handed, was born left-handed and you had to write with the, I guess the Japanese print from top to bottom. And I would go like this and the teacher would whack my hand, go on when she wasn' ; t looking, I' ; d put it back and then she' ; d come along and whack my hand again. So that happened often enough that I' ; m a righty in terms of right-handed, writing. Terrible scrawl. But it' ; s one of the few things I do right-handed. I remember that and then going to an English school, American school afterwards, I think we had Japanese school in the morning, American school in the afternoon. That was first grade? Kindergarten, first grade. I think that' ; s what we did there. I remember then doing kendo. I didn' ; t do that. We did sumo. They had a sumo place and I remember competing. (Speaking to someone in the room) Helen, you have the pictures or do I? AT:You said you' ; d go to shows. What kind of shows? KI:Movies! I remember seeing Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet. I think it was, movies. Here' ; s a picture of myself. AT:So, what is that? KI:There' ; s a, here' ; s a picture of my brother and I, do you read Japanese. You don' ; t read Japanese, do you? AT:Hiragana is the best I can do- KI:I can' ; t read it. It' ; s in the back, my mom wrote, my dad wrote stuff on the back. AT:You want to hold this up? This is a photograph of- just high. KI:Oh, I don' ; t know if you can see that. It' ; s kinda small. AT:We can take it. Yeah. We' ; ll, we can take a photograph. KI:This is a picture of my family. This is in Crystal City. August, 1943. AT:So, did- so someone, do you know who was taking these photos? KI:No, no. There' ; s some writing. See, I' ; m four years old. My brother' ; s one, one year eight months, all my dad wrote everything on the back here. Here are, this is a photo that my dad had of Crystal City. This is a woman, looks like a tennis, which I had, there' ; s an explanation here on the back saying what it is. This is a map of the layout of the camp. Crystal City here, I got this. AT:Did you get that when you went back? KI:I think, yeah, I think when we visited there. They gave us this, it was in their library, they gave us this issue. My experiences in Chicago. Oh, here' ; s a picture of Santa Fe. This is my father here and this, these are all the people that were in the Santa Fe grabbed by the FBI. So imagine this picture is, 1942. AT:And you said that your family didn' ; t really talk about anything unless you prompted your parents with questions. Do you, was that kind of like, would you say that was characteristic of them or- KI:I think of most people that I know. I know my aunt, we already talked about it. You know, she was in my aunt, my mother' ; s sister was in Jerome, which was further down from Rohwer, Arkansas. She hardly talked about it. If she was asked, she would talk, but I think almost characteristically, almost everyone I know of that age did not talk about, they never maybe among themselves, they might have initiated instead of their relationship, but never, I don' ; t remember my mom or dad ever saying anything. Only when I brought it up, they would discuss exactly what I asked them. No more. So there, I guess maybe it' ; s an experience, they just don' ; t want to recall. AT:Did you ever- how did that make you feel as you were growing up and asking them questions and did you notice or you just kind of moved on? KI:I think it' ; s, what' ; s the Japanese word as I understand, gaman? I think it' ; s that. They honor that, that particular thing and they just say that' ; s a sad experience in their life. Now let' ; s go on in life from, you know, go on from there. Not re rehash it. I' ; m guessing. I' ; m not sure, but that' ; s a part of history that they don' ; t particularly care initially recall or cite on their behalf. But if asked, they would mention it, their experience. AT:And, so you had mentioned how you even at a very young age, kind of had this this understanding or concept that you' ; re imprisoned, therefore you must have done something wrong. And to you, the only thing was being Japanese, so you wanted to prove that you were American. And you described that whole experience. Was that ever something that you, that came up with your parents or maybe your mother? KI:No, it' ; s just a feeling within myself and I remember a good example of this. There would be kids would always love action movies. You know, I go to the shows and I see the World War II movies with Germans and Americans and okay. But when I saw the movies with American and Japanese, you know, I kind of cower out of the theater, try to keep a low profile when I left cause that was kind of, I don' ; t know what guilt or whatever is guilt by association and bad, bad feelings. And so I didn' ; t like those movies too much cause it was saying reinforcing that we' ; re responsible for any of the deaths that occurred in the American soldiers getting shot in the movie. We' ; re responsible. It wasn' ; t, until years later, I kind of overcame that feeling- of embracing my culture. Unfortunately that' ; s the part I feel really remiss about is turning my back on my culture there for awhile. AT:When do you think that change happened? KI:Probably understanding more about the, how the war took place, then maybe maturing a little bit, understanding and feeling maybe better about myself. And that personally I did not experience too much prejudice against myself throughout my whole career. I don' ; t remember being taunted or said things openly to me. So maybe that had a little bit to do with saying, okay, people accept me, you know, they don' ; t resent that I was once a member of a race that they hated or, you know, fought against United States. So that kind of disappeared from my thinking and feeling. And, I started embracing my culture more back. I regret that because my parents wanted me to go Japanese school and I fought that tooth and nail. I didn' ; t want to embrace that. Now I' ; m really sorry I did. It' ; s one of my biggest regrets. Once I moved out and got married, my brother was staying with my parents awhile, so I kind of forgot my Japanese language. I can understand it, but I can' ; t speak it. You know, it' ; s hard for me to form the words to articulate myself, but when somebody addresses me, I' ; m a fundamental Japanese, I can understand simple, I can' ; t understand complicated words, simple ones, I can understand AT:And, do you think that was like high school or college age that you started having those or or even later? That you were embracing your, your Japanese heritage more? KI:Probably later in high school. I think I was just about maturing a little bit more in my thinking. I mean, I think in high school overcoming the anxieties of any teenager in high school, you know, with- I think in my senior year I think I started to get a little more confidence in myself and maturity - I hopefully maturity. And, I think I started embracing that my culture a little bit more at that point. AT:Again, to kind of take it back - KI:Anytime. Sure, no problem. AT:So from Crystal City, your family went to Seabrook, or they, they worked for Seabrook in New Jersey. KI:Yes. AT:And you said you were there for a year? KI:For a year. There were like huts there, two of the same thing. They had huts similar to like what we had at camp. It was like a compound and I guess they hired. I don' ; t know, her uncle, my wife' ; s uncle was even there doing the same thing. AT:And so that, I mean, do you remember your, your first impressions of you know, New Jersey, someone like across the country? Very different. KI:Since my memory was of camp in terms of, you know, basic memory, anything where there were no fences was nice, a sense of freedom, of being able to move, being in a car and dad and my dad always took us almost every Saturday to a town not too far to go see shows, movies. They had a recreational center thing in Seabrook and their Japanese organization there that had shows and ran things. So I remember we had productions there and my mom took photos and stuff that we were engaged in there. And one of my experiences, I remember in school, second grade where the teacher was calling my name, you know how teachers call - take attendance first day. And she was mispronouncing my name and I had no idea what she was saying because I know the way my name should be pronounced from my parents and fellow Japanese people. And here is a Caucasian saying my name in an entirely different form so I' ; m not responding and she probably looked around and said there' ; s an Asian kid there. Everyone else in the class hadn' ; t responded. KI:She said, are you " ; Kazuo Ideno" ; (mispronouncing his name)? And then she didn' ; t say " ; Kazuo Ideno" ; (pronouncing name correctly) or something, that variation. I see. Yes. So that' ; s when I first realized that maybe one of my first thoughts of somebody not pronouncing my name correctly and saying is this going to be a problem in the future? So that was one of the seeds of my adopting Gene as a first name rather than given, you know, and all my friends in Chicago, my Japanese friends all had English names. I was the only one with the ethnic name. So- AT:And what drew you to Gene? KI:Well, I had asked my friends, my buddies. I said, hey guys, how about helping me with my name? This is my sophomore year in high school. I had to have a name that there was no one else in the group had. You know I was in the boy scouts. So all the name, my mother, I asked my mother, said what English name, if you had a chance, would you give me? She said, I would' ; ve named you Henry. I said Henry. Okay, well there were a couple of Henry' ; s in the-our group. I don' ; t want to be another new Henry. And I think there were two stars Gene Autry and Gene Kelly. And I said, you know, Gene, there' ; s no, no one named Gene in this group. That' ; d be a good one. And I don' ; t want Eugene, I wanted just Gene. KI:So I said, guys what do you think about, Gene, hey, that' ; s different. Oh, okay. I mean, I used to use we always call you Ka. And they still to this day. They still call me Kaz. All my friends, they don' ; t call me Gene. They called me Kaz. So, that was adopted. The problem was every time I, to this day, when I say, what is your name? Gene, they spell it J-E-A-N- I don' ; t know why they J- E-N-E they don' ; t, they don' ; t put the " ; G" ; they have that French. AT:And so you adopted that when you were in Chicago? KI:Yes. AT:Was- when you moved from New Jersey to Chicago, was that the first time you had ever been to Chicago? KI:Yes. AT:Do you remember your first impressions there? KI:Let' ; s see how' ; d it go. My mother came ahead of, from New Jersey. She went ahead or I think a week ahead and my brother, my dad took, my brother and I and we rode the train from, I think was it from, Philadelphia, I think, I think it was Philadelphia. Somehow we took a bus to Philadelphia and then took the train to Chicago and I remember getting off and I said, wow, what a big city. And just kind of in awe and meeting my cousins for the first time, my aunt and uncle and cousins and all, they, they probably thought I was kind of strange. It was -- it was a language problem that was, cause they pretty much spoke English. They didn' ; t speak too much Japanese. AT:Were they in camp somewhere? KI:They were in Jerome, Jerome. They were farmers. So they were, they were released I think in 1944. They worked in Wisconsin or somewhere farming was in northern Illinois. KI:And they did that for awhile. So they were releasing, I think like a lot of people that you had a job or you can do something, you got released. One of my experiences speaking about that is when I went to grade school on the South Side, third grade, there was another Japanese student in my class and he was Richard Sano and like all of us, we were all the friends I had. I said, what camp were you in? Oh, we were Poston [internment camp] what camp were you in? Oh, it was here. So I went to this person in my classroom. I said, Rich, what camp were you in? Camp. What camp? You know, I was in Crystal City. So and so was in Poston- KI:I wasn' ; t in any camp. Well where were you then during the war? Right here in Chicago. So, he was totally unaware of it. I don' ; t think he knew what I was talking about and I was very surprised and shocked that he was a Japanese guy. But because he lived in Chicago, he was not in camp and I think, like Helen, my wife' ; s father' ; s cousin, they lived in Colorado and they, they weren' ; t in camp either. So that was kind of a revelation for me, we figured all the Japanese in the United States, were placed in camp. No, we didn' ; t realize that they were all the border states, you know, never civic or, western Illinois - western United States a part of Arizona. AT:So that was something that even the kids would do is say, which camp were you in? KI:Oh yeah, that was a natural. We all asked each other and I just remember all the guys said- you were where? Crystal City? I felt kind of like of an oddball because everyone was in Poston. Everybody was in, you know, who ever heard of Crystal City? And most of my friends were from L.A. and I was from San Francisco, so I was definitely the oddball. AT:How did you explain Crystal City? or you know- KI:I couldn' ; t, at that time I had no knowledge, in regard to my friends-- explain how I ended up there. I didn' ; t understand the history of what, what, what the places through where people, the Japanese were in different camps because of where they originally were. And I really had no idea. I just knew we were in a different camp. So that was kind of a revelation to me. That' ; s the benefit of I guess, history and knowledge of learning things like this. AT:So actually, Karen had mentioned that she thought your father was kind of a big part of Issei entertainment in Chicago. KI:Yes. AT:You know, I' ; m assuming his involvement in the arts and all of that. KI:She knew that? AT:She did. KI:Wow. AT:So how, how would you describe your, your families' ; or your parents' ; involvement in the, or role maybe in the resettlement community of Chicago? Was that something that you were aware of in high school or- KI:Not really too much? I got, I gotta say like I said like I kind of turned my back and that, you know, other than my friends that I associated with I--we didn' ; t get too, too involved in all that. Maybe I went to the, what they call a resettler' ; s, picnic. They used to have, in during the summertime or things like that. But that' ; s pretty much it. No. And then church, the Chicago Buddhist Church in the South Side. The Obon, the different hanamatsuri and Boy Scout, Cub Scout, boy scouts, explorer scouts, scouting program. They had that was pretty much it, but as far as the community stuff. I know my dad was probably involved in a lot more stuff like that. My mother too and they probably spoke mostly Japanese. It was like boring stuff to a teenager. AT:And, so as far as high school and your, your extra curricul-, extracurriculars, um you were mostly with other Japanese Americans? KI:Yeah. Here, let me just show you this photo here. This is 1954, start at ' ; 54 and I think would last til three years, ' ; 54 ' ; 55 ' ; 56. I am pretty sure this is the only, mostly Japanese baseball team, a lot of people used to play softball, but not baseball, we were really one of the few and we were very fortunate to have this gentleman right here Yukio. He just graduated from University of Illinois and he was our coach and he' ; s pretty much my, I wouldn' ; t say mentor or role model or a guy that set me on becoming a coach myself that he taught me so much about the sport and I just, whatever he said it was gospel, and I, you know I followed it to the T, whatever he said, was a strong advocate because he was very knowledgeable and taught us a lot, the basics. So I thought that most of my friends are in here. Members of this team here. AT:And you said you also went to dances and socials, is that right? KI:Yes, we started when we were in Explorer Scouts, we had a Scoutmaster said yeah you guys could have a dance. We had a dance at the church. AT:So you would host it yourselves. KI:Our, our boy scout, our explorer scouts did, yes. And then later on we' ; d get different teenage groups. And that was on the South Side. Then we went to mostly I think I went to most of the dances on the North Side, where more Japanese were. KI:At Midwest Church, they had some there and they had some at Tri-C. I' ; m trying to remember the other church. Yeah, I remember going. We had a lot of dances, in those times. I' ; m really sorry for kids today, they don' ; t have that many dances like we had, no socializing. AT:What were, what were those like? KI:They were great. Yeah. Record hops. It was typical, girls on one side, guys on the other, the boldest guy might go and ask a girl, then the others would follow, you know, but that was it. That was how you met. Ask for a date or going there with somebody, it was a great time. I really enjoyed it. AT:And one of the things that I grew up learning about or understanding about the resettlement community was the, you know folks were kind of discouraged from congregating or - or walking in big groups for example. KI:You know in uh in regard to that, I remember there was an article in the JACL, saying that when Japanese were released. That was never consciously said to us. Now that might' ; ve been true. Maybe it' ; s by example, but I don' ; t recall from my memory of it actually verbally said, that you know, hey don' ; t congregate there probably because I know I was with my friends and they were all Japanese so. There' ; s nothing about, hey, gather. Whether it was boy scouts or church group or something. Teams. We were never conscious, hey, you guys shouldn' ; t do that. That kind of thing. Or at a church function or dance, you guys shouldn' ; t do this. That was never, I don' ; t think that was ever expressed or felt. At least, I was not aware of that if it did indeed exist. AT:One thing I wanted to be sure to ask about was the boarding house that belonged to your aunt and uncle. Where was that located? KI:Right next to the church, 5470 South Dorchester. AT:And, were the- KI:or 79 excuse me. AT:The tenants- KI:All Japanese. AT:All Japanese? KI:They were, they were from the camps coming here. I guess getting employment, you know, from the various camps they came these are all single men primarily. And they would-- my mom would serve Japanese food for dinner. I' ; m not sure if they had breakfast or not, there might have been. And my job as the oldest son was to set the table, help my mother clean the rooms, and then help her with the wash, the laundry. That was my job. My brother was free. I said my mother, how come he doesn' ; t have to do it? Well, my mom' ; s explanation was, well, you' ; re older, you' ; re more responsible. So what can I say? AT:And so- -How long, where did you go from Hyde Park? And then I' ; m sorry, you said now you' ; re in Park-- KI:Park Ridge. AT:Okay. So can you explain where- -where you and your family-- KI:So I lived in Hyde Park until I think it was about what ' ; 62. Graduated ' ; 62. My wife and I got married in December of ' ; 62. We moved to the West Side of Chicago. She was teaching over there. I was teaching on the South Side for --until ' ; 63. I got a job at Marshall High school ' ; cause I wanted to be a high school and I wanted to coach and I was at a grammar school the first year. We started trying to save money, we started to have children and her father worked at Frito Lay in Franklin Park and they had a kind of like a house there on the property and the manager, made a proposal and my father-in-law came and said we can live in that house for free and the utilities and everything would be paid for ; all we have to do is clean, clean the office and mow the lawn of the property, shovel snow in the wintertime. That was the trade off for living, rent free. So that-- said, okay, so we moved in there for, we lived there for four years and that helped us save money to eventually buy a house. And I think we moved there in ' ; 6-, ' ; 64, oh no, ' ; 63, ' ; 63 in Franklin Park and worked there, stayed there for four years. And then we moved to Park Ridge in ' ; 67, wanted to get a good school system. We didn' ; t think Franklin Park had a very good school system as we started looking for homes in Park Ridge, Morton Grove, Niles, and then, we just, we didn' ; t have a lot of money, so we found a home that fit in our budget, somewhat started there. We knew that Park Ridge had an excellent school system. So that' ; s why we settled there, we haven' ; t moved since [chuckles]. Well moved a house, but it' ; s still in Park Ridge. AT:So the, the drive was the education? KI:Yes. Yes. We especially stressed that then, my wife, pretty much we, we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t spend too much on things that during the formative years of our three daughters, she made sure that all that money we saved for their education. So when it came time and there was money set aside for their schooling our eldest went to Purdue and then, Texas A and M for a master' ; s in Nutritional Science. Our middle one, Karen went to U--University of Illinois. She became an electrical engineer and then our youngest because she wanted to leave us pretty bad. She went to California. At Claremont Mckenna College. She was political science and economics, you know, my middle one, the one the electrical engineer, she went to Kellogg in Northwestern, so yeah ; my two daughters with master' ; s, my youngest without a masters, without a master' ; s. Just a bachelor' ; s. She probably earned the most ' ; cause she was in the right field, not necessarily because of the degree. AT:When you, when you look back on some of the things that we' ; ve talked about here, from your experiences as a very young child to making these big moves, what do you, how do you see those war time experiences as impacting your life? KI:Oh, I think kind of mixed. There was--there was like, I think I feel more for my parents than for myself because as a kid there wasn' ; t a trauma that I' ; m sure my folks and every other older people, you know, I was just a kid. I just felt the effects of the-- I' ; m in jail or I' ; m in prison or something, you know, restricted and-- I just knew that it had more of impact on them than it did on me. Just the, the only impact they had from me was just to prove that, they were wrong imprisoning me. I wanted to prove that they were wrong that I' ; m a loyal American, probably gung-ho in that just to prove that any chance I could. For them, I would say that was the only thing I think I had, cause it was kinda like fun and games to us probably, you know, I was in prison. All I did was go swimming, go playing with my friends that were at camp. Not the trauma of adults saying my livelihood was taken away. And here I am kind of restricted in some movement. AT:And if you could leave your, your children and grandchildren or coming generations if you you could leave them with any kind of message or legacy. What would you want that to be? KI:Never forget what happened, to us. This is what happened to your, for them, great-grandparents, the Japanese on the West Coast in general. And how prejudice can do things you expect from a government, these things can happen. And I guess in a certain extent, you know, I think we' ; re probably more aware of what can happen to Muslims. They might be undergoing the same thing. I think this is the kind of precautionary thing that governments tend to do. Like the Germans did with the Jews, United States did with the Japanese. The government sometimes would--politically, a lot of fear or whatever reason, tend to gather up groups and you know, this is wrong, if that, unless you' ; re proven, especially in United States with our constitution when you have the rights taken away, that' ; s wrong. So, I think I' ; ve become very aware of that. I think this is something we have to be on guard with for a sad experience about that. AT:Well, thank you so much for, for speaking with me. As we wrap up here, is there anything that you' ; d want to add or, or that I may have missed in this conversation? KI:No, I think there' ; s probably some things, but I just don' ; t recall it right now. Oh, I will say that I talked to my aunt who was in the camp in Rohwer, and I said, you know I--I visited the camp too, they have a nice display in Arkansas with-- George Takei was there. So I asked my aunt and my, ' ; cause she was in that camp. That' ; s my mother' ; s sister, younger sister and I said you know we were there, she says, naw, it' ; s a bad memory for her so she didn' ; t want to really talk about it, kind of get more information from me about what it' ; s like or share events that happened. I think one of the things that I remember I said to my wife' ; s uncle was in that camp Rohwer and he, I remember him at one of the parties saying his experience as a teenager that they somehow either legally or illegally they wandered out of camp and they were walking in the swamps and with his friends, and they, just as a young teenager to venture, you know, walking in the swamps, and then they came up on a body. A Black person hung up in the tree somewhere. I guess the rednecks must' ; ve hung this Black guy and they said, they ran home back to the camp as fast as they could thinking this could be me, they could hang me as a escaped Japanese pris, you know, from the camp so, I said really that happened, George? Yeah, that' ; s their experience, his experience right there. KI:He went onto serve and then Europe, her uncle. AT:So is this, is this something that I know that different people and certainly different generations, approach the experience differently in terms of whether or not they will share about it and all of that. But it sounds like you, you have spoken to some family members about-- KI:Yeah. In fact, one of my closest friends, he was in Poston and I think he visited Poston several years ago. We were in Vegas, took time, just drive down there. He wanted to see where his camp was and his memory of it. He' ; s a year younger than me, but I mean he, he had some memories of being in Poston, so like I did, visited Rohwer and Crystal City, it kind of revived some of the temporary memories, kind of see what it was like, well what were the for my parents, you know, just kind of visualize it, how it looked, what it would be like-- AT:From an adult' ; s perspective? KI:Yes. AT:And what, what inspired that, that trip back because it sounds like it was fairly recently? KI:Three, four years ago? Three, four years ago. I' ; ve just, I always wanted to make that odyssey, just see what it was like, try to keep it in grasp with my memory of the place. And, I remember the or-- the orange grove, so I think I told her, I said, you know, where' ; s this at? Well where we stayed now is a school. You have the school there. So I couldn' ; t exactly see where the exact property but looking at that map, I said, I remember the perspective of where the sumo thing was, where this building was, and I said that was the house that we were in. I could remember that. I could recreate it in my mind, so I have that memory of where we were staying from that point. AT:Well, thank you so much again for taking the time. KI:Well, thank you for listening [both chuckle]. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://www.saitolincoln.com/ohms-viewer-3.8.6/render.php?cachefile=IdenoKazuo20170824.xml IdenoKazuo20170824.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/36" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ideno, Helen (8/24/2017)</a>
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Ideno, Kazuo Gene (8/24/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Kazuo Ideno was born in San Francisco, California. His father was born on the island of Shikoku and his mother in California although she was raised and educated in Japan. His family was incarcerated at Crystal City Internment Camp located in Texas. His father was a kendo instructor and leader in the community. After imprisonment, his family moved to Seabrook, New Jersey for an opportunity to work at a cannery. Soon after, the family relocated to Chicago, Illinois where he spent a lot of time participating in sports and extracurricular activities with Japanese peers. It was in Chicago that he met a classmate who hadn’t been imprisoned in a camp which confused him. Ideno discusses his feelings of guilt as a youth and his “gung-ho” attitude to “prove” his loyalty to the U.S, alienating himself from his Japanese culture which he discusses in regret. He concludes with a message to future generations to never forget what happened and to be aware of the historical issue of prejudice in the United States.
Subject
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949
Date
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2017-08-24
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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write to:
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kagawa, Stephen
Interview Keyword
Hawaii
Sand Island
Jerome
Arkansas
Des Moines
Japanese American National Museum
Go for Broke
U.S. Japan Council
Sansei
Yonsei
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/1/2017 Kagawa, Stephen (11/1/2017) 0:43:13 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Hawaii Sand Island Jerome Arkansas Des Moines Japanese American National Museum Go for Broke U.S. Japan Council Sansei Yonsei Kagawa, Stephen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/297356907 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/297356907?h=fd8d3baa2b" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Stephen Kagawa is a fourth generation (Yonsei) Japanese American born and raised in Hawaii. In this interview, he shares what he has learned about his family's roots in Japan and immigration to Hawaii, and describes his paternal grandfather's interactions with the FBI and eventual detention at Sand Island after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He continues with his grandfather's transfer to Jerome, Arkansas, where his wife and children joined him. He describes his father's experiences as a child in Des Moines, Iowa where the family lived briefly before returning to Hawaii. In explaining his motivations for serving on the boards of the Japanese American National Museum, Go For Broke, and the U.S. Japan Council, he reveals that he knew none of his own family's incarceration history until adulthood and expresses his commitment to ensuring that this history is more widely known. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 So to start can you just state your full name? Stephen Kagawa: 00:03 My name is Stephen Lincoln Kagawa. AT: 00:08 Okay, and um, where, where are you from? SK: 00:11 I' ; m from Hawai' ; i, actually I' ; m from Kaneohe, Hawai' ; i. That' ; s where I grew up. AT: 00:18 And then so to start can you tell me a little bit about um maybe your parents where, where they were from? SK: 00:27 So my parents are both from Hawai' ; i. I' ; m actually a fourth generation American of Japanese ancestry and they' ; re both from Hawai' ; i. AT: 00:36 Do you know anything about your grandparents or your great grandparents. SK: 00:37 Sure. AT: 00:37 How they came to the U.S.? SK: 00:41 Both, both sides of my family, both my mother and father' ; s side come from Hiroshima. And we we speak mostly about my father' ; s side in typical Japanese form. And so my great grandfather boarded the SS [Bintala?] from Hiroshima to actually Draft Harbor of Yokohama, to come to the Kingdom of Hawai' ; i under the contract that was established between the monarchy in Hawai' ; i and of course Japan. And, and so he landed on Kohala Coast which is a big island of Hawai' ; i. And found his way to his new life his new dream which ended up being the irrigation canals they were bringing that, they were bringing the water down from the mountains of the big island to the parched land below that they were trying to harvest sugarcane. AT: 01:41 That was your? SK: 01:42 That was my dad' ; s side. My mother' ; s side is a little bit less talked about, um and so I don' ; t know the actual year in which he had he made his way and I' ; m getting some of that information, which is a typical situation that you all have generations after the fact, to sort of gather the real facts. In fact a lot of stories even about my my great grandfather and the place where we come from, and what the family did, was unknown. In fact put into books with improper facts as I was, as I visited Hiroshima and learned that my family was not rice farmers which we thought we were, but actually were from fishing villages. So you know you don' ; t have rice paddies in fishing villages. So we think, every day, or I should say every day, but on a regular basis to this day we' ; re learning about past history which has been quietly packed away like a treasure chest, right? That we just learning bits and pieces about. AT: 02:52 Is there anyone in your family that is mostly responsible for doing that work? SK: 02:57 Yeah me. AT: 03:00 You, you' ; re the family historian? SK: 03:00 I' ; ve actually become the family historian because it was actually a big book that was being written on my, my father. And my father, I was really focusing on my grandfather because of what he did in the life insurance, insurance industry. Because my grandfather was one who as a Nisei, you know, decided that as an American he wanted to be really an American. And he thought and fought for justice. And he was working in a trust company and he found that the community in Hawai' ; i which is predominantly Asian at the time, did not have the opportunities that their Caucasian neighbors had in reaching out for family security through life insurance industry. So the life insurance policies that you have access to were not of the same price, and and he thought that was unfair. And according to the life insurance companies the reason was they were looking at the mortality statistics from the country of the national origin. And so you can imagine Pre-World War II how maybe morality was a little different in the countries like Japan and others. And so my grandfather set out to, to look at the mortality statistics of the territory of Hawai' ; i, Hawai' ; i was not a state for a long time. But wouldn' ; t be a state for a long time from that point. Um and partnered with AP Giannini who founded the Bank of America and a small little life insurance company. And so the two of them got together and sort of abolished those discriminatory practices. And you know that' ; s that' ; s sort of my my grandfather' ; s rise to fame and I' ; m sorry because I can' ; t remember exactly what the question was it took me down that path but. AT: 04:58 Oh about family historian. SK: 05:01 So, so, but anyways, so. So you' ; re asking about historian, right. So, so um, they were writing a story about that. And my father focusing in on that story and then elaborating going backwards and then going forwards, really on my grandfather' ; s story. And as we went backwards to, to, to understand my grandfather' ; s experiences going as a, going back to Japan to learn the Japanese culture. Of course, coming back from Japan to actually open the first hotel in Kahului, Maui called the Kalau Hotel that actually opened my great grandfather. So he could operate it, my grandfather could operate it you know. And and it' ; s just amazing, as we kept going backwards, how little we knew, you know. And my father was not so well, as he was going through the book, and had to rely on other people. And so as I read the book and I started to read and put faces to the names and checked out the stories. It didn' ; t seem right. And there was a lot of things that really derived out of just out of ignorance. And so you fill a gap with something and that story sort of compiles and blossoms into something that really didn' ; t happen. And I thought that really wasn' ; t fair. You know fair to the people who are written up in the book, right? And the people that would read it, to you know, because history should be captured in a certain way, certainly it' ; s personal, right, because it' ; s their personal experiences their personal reflections and their personal observations about what those stories might be. But you know as as a as a is my father' ; s son I want to make sure that my father' ; s stories about my grandfather' ; s stories and his father' ; s stories and the families and you know everybody else, in between, that would be reflected at least in factual format when we involved history itself and the people that touched us through throughout that period of time. So it' ; s been an incredible journey, that I' ; m still learning and continue to learn. And I' ; m very fortunate because of what I' ; m doing, that I do have the opportunity to learn from places like this, Alphawood, right? And this amazing exhibition that you have. AT: 07:27 Have you done any of that kind of work, pertaining to your mom' ; s side? SK: 07:32 So yeah we just just started to do it. And my,, my mother my mother discounts a lot. Like a, she' ; s also, well, she' ; s Nisei, and my father' ; s Sansei. So I guess three point five. Right? But of course we again look at the father' ; s side. So I' ; m Yonsei, and, and so that' ; s how we do it, certainly in Hawai' ; i that' ; s how we do it. So my, mother discounts it and she discounts it because well there' ; s a lot of reasons you know a lot of it' ; s culturally, right? How they were brought up. She was the youngest child, in the family. And she discounted it because she' ; s on Maui. She discounts it because of, because they were not involved in the camps. She discounts it because they were also not involved in World War II, fighting as Nisei soldiers, as part of Go for Broke or for 442nd, or any of the regiments around that. So, so I' ; m sort of embarrassed you know because I was struggling to try to dig up the treasure that' ; s behind, you know, behind her stories, behind the the path and journey that the Yamashta, that she' ; s a Yamashta, we say Yamashita in Hawai' ; i. And, and uh, you know, and I really want to get to know that better, so. AT: 08:58 And uh, so can you tell me a little bit more about your, your family' ; s experiences during the wartime? SK: 09:10 During the war. So yeah it' ; s um. Well, my grandfather was the first leader of the Chamber of Commerce, the Japanese Chamber of Commerce in Hawai' ; i. First Nisei leader. And um, so, when the war broke out, um my, my grandfather was rallying the business community together. And of course as loyal Americans they were, because Nisei were fighting to be Americans, right? And um Issei, a lot of them were still holding onto, they were Japanese and, and um, you know, so there was a lot even in business, there was a lot of tension in Hawai' ; i, of course, is where they were. And tensions between Issei and Nisei because the Nisei really wanted to be American and, and move forward in that, and um, the Issei were still sort of holding onto that history and it makes all the sense in the world. But of course the Issei were also promoting the fact that you know there, here was the children that born American. And so, so um and there was no, um, you know, doubt of the loyalty that my grandfather actually on that day was supposed to go golfing. And so he' ; s a little bit older. So um and so he was pretty surprised when he comes out of his door and and he sees the puffs of smoke going on um and, and, and that' ; s what I know of that day. My my grandfather was there, well, you know, first helping the FBI " ; supposedly," ; quote unquote. And there are a number of things that people were doing, and he of course, as a business leader, was being asked to round up, and, and, and sort of keep the peace, if you will, amongst one another. No one knew what' ; s going to happen, but no one ever thought they would be deemed enemy aliens, and to lose their rights. And certainly no one thought that during World War II, or after the bombing, that the camps would ever come about, right. And of with 120,000 Japanese Americans in Hawai' ; i, I mean that' ; s Hawai' ; i. I' ; m not talking about the 120,000 that actually made their way to the camps from the West Coast. But, but that was an ominous task for the authorities to say, you know, we better sequester this whole group. So no one was really in fear of that of anything of that nature occurring. Um so, so it was shocking when, uh when finally my grandfather was visited and then taken away. And he was taken away to a detention center in Hawai' ; i and that detention center is called Sand Island in Sand Island. And there was, there were actually a number of um camps were actually were found after the fact. Most of the, most of the detained were, were considered enemies, right. And we' ; re actually again quote quote considered " ; war criminals." ; They' ; re not they were not the typical war relocation effort type you' ; re Japanese American and therefore you have Japanese blood and therefore you should go. Um, so so uh as you, many people as I did well, as I finally learned later, you know, the target was towards those that had come and gone to Japan, to learn the Japanese way, whatever that meant. And also of course religious leaders. And and then some of the business leaders, if not, were, were targeted in Hawai' ; i. And so my grandfather being a business leader and the same time having gone to Japan for some schooling was, was targeted. So he ended up being in Sand Island and then eventually made his way through that whole process and he ended up in Jerome, Arkansas. The family then relocated to be with him. And so my father who was geez, he must have been eight years old or so, along with his older sisters, his four older sisters, I' ; m sorry three older sisters and a younger sister. And they they all went off to Jerome. So you know we' ; re fortunate because unlike the pictures you see and the that captured the realities of that time in uh, especially in the West Coast, where everything was stripped from them. The other belongings and you loot. People losing their farms and their businesses and then selling things at pennies on the dollar. You know we were blessed because my my grandfather was very very important to to Mr. Giannini and Mr. Giannini was very very powerful. And so because of that much of what we had in Hawai' ; i was, was okay, was kept. It' ; s amazing what happens during the war though you know I finally received the FBI files under the Freedom of Information Act and you can see the question and answer and the, the spin that' ; s taken, whenever you received, whenever, you know, the FBI received an answer from my grandfather, um it' ; s shocking. And as an American, as a, as I believe in America, when I read it I wonder, is it a farce, you know, is this truly what' ; s behind the curtain? Or has the time really gone away? Because I know that my family felt very secure before the war broke out. So it' ; s, I don' ; t want to feel that way. But, but as I read through that time, World War II, it' ; s quite amazing. And on top of that, when you have assets, suddenly your friends become your enemies. And, and, you know, you didn' ; t see that in on the West Coast or the ones that moved into the camps or were brought to the concentration camps there, we call them concentration camps. But in Hawai' ; i because Hawai' ; i didn' ; t have those camps. Um now they' ; re trying to figure out who' ; s the enemy, right? And think about it, you' ; re in business and you' ; re in competition with somebody, what a great opportunity, when called on by the FBI, to go ahead and take down your competitor. And I saw an amazing number of letters and, and all the evidence that points to families that actually today are our friends, you know it' ; s just amazing what happens during War. So, so I guess, that' ; s probably a story that most people don' ; t hear, you know, that even within our own community we were taking advantage of each other. It was just a different dynamic in Hawai' ; i as opposed to the West Coast. AT: 16:48 And you said you learned about that through reading old letters, of evidence of that happening? SK: 16:54 Yes, my grandfather kept all of his letters. And his first daughter was his secretary and so captured many of it. Beautiful, beautiful letters, um, English letters. But also in the FBI files, when you did a trial, there are witnesses, okay. And so, so there was literally some research done, right, because they had to decide which one of these potential criminals really belonged, you know, in camp. And so that' ; s how when you read through those files and through the FBI files you see who stepped up you understand what it was about. I learned a lot of business things that my grandfather was doing that never would have known. I don' ; t think my father even knew my father was so touched by it and so emotionally involved even doing his book writing that he had requested the files but um and so, I knew had requested it. So I thought he had read it and passed it on to his writers and whatnot. Well, um we were cleaning out his office and we found the unopened envelope, right, from years past, years before and I opened it up and it just astounded to see, my father would have been crushed, if he had read through that. And just because I know that he called many of these people that were on there, friends, and it' ; s just amazing what things happened. But it' ; s also amazing how we can forgive, right, how we can, how that community, you know, my grandfather I have so much respect as I read that file as to the fact that he never fought against them, you know, certainly publicly, not publicly in business, even though I' ; m sure his struggle was there you know that his considered friends and allies would turn against him in this time of need really, right? You know, when you' ; re being hauled away. So um it' ; s remarkable. AT: 19:05 You had mentioned something that when you' ; re talking about getting the FBI files on your grandfather, the actual interrogation, is that right? SK: 19:15 Yes. AT: 19:17 And I' ; m not going to get this right that you' ; re mentioning, how in reading that over, um you, it sounded like you had your own doubts about just kind of the U.S. Can you talk a little bit more about that, and maybe what you' ; re actually seeing in those files, that made you feel that way? SK: 19:42 Well, if you' ; ve already been. Well, I guess it' ; s a simple way of. That' ; s a great question. I I I probably never ever articulated what I just said to you that you captured. And I suppose, I suppose it' ; s like you watch or you talk to somebody and they' ; re being really nice to you and you think the world of them. And yet behind it they' ; re, they' ; re actually steering you towards you know a very bad place. And maybe that' ; s called prison whatever you want to call what some call internment camps and others consider concentration and I think if you really look at the true definition it' ; s concentration camp is certainly not a death camp. Like I don' ; t want to even go there, you know. But when you look at the questions and answers it' ; s really the questions and the follow up questions to the questions or the follow comment to the question that whatever you say to me I will turn it around so that it works for me, right? So I' ; m really directing you and driving you to what I want you to have met in whatever words you use to say whatever you say, so that you are absolutely validated you' ; re validating my assumption of your guilt, right? Because I' ; ve already decided you' ; re guilty. This is just a process to ensure that I have file that proves it. And I' ; m gonna make sure that it' ; s there. And so it' ; s pretty interesting because, you know, you see where the censorship was. And so initially I guess however they did it, they censored certain names and and bits and pieces so you have these black splotches everywhere, right? And that was done in between, right, the time of the interview throughout incarceration, after incarceration, integration back into community, right? And, and of course, ultimately to the Freedom of Information Act. I don' ; t, there' ; s the other question in my head, when did these blackouts occur, you know? How recent were they? How long ago were they? How purposeful were they? You know, clearly they were purposeful, right? I can' ; t imagine they doing it to 120,000 people. But you know when you have fear driving things and, and a decision made that everyone is guilty, you know, we, we become sort of processed right? And and I that' ; s where my fear is that if I if government decides that a people are guilty, right, then will we do it again? Right? Will, are we, going to direct the the answers, or the questions towards the answers that we need to hear to justify our files, to justify our actions, right? That are represented within those files. And that' ; s the part that makes me fearful, because I think anyone can do that. You know, I watch it in my own business, you know businesses. You know as people sort of, um you know, take people down a path that they want, they need them to go in order to get to wherever they want to get to. That' ; s really what I' ; m fearful of. AT: 23:19 Um I want to come back for that, but first tell me a little bit about what happened after camp? SK: 23:31 After camp, yeah. So, so yeah I' ; ve still, actually I' ; m still really learning about that. It' ; s a, that' ; s a great question. I know my grandfather, see my grandfather was older. So he' ; s too old to fight, right. So he didn' ; t, he wasn' ; t part of the of the 442nd or the MIS or any of that. And he was, you know my my father was too young to fight. So my grandfathers to old, my father' ; s too young. My grandfather does go back to work with the Relocation Authority, out of Des Moines. And so, so not out of Chicago, not, you know, but out of Des Moines. And, and, and um that' ; s also remarkable when, when I consider the story that I really know really well. We I know that they go to Des Moines and I know ultimately that he goes back to Hawai' ; i, because they have a huge operation for, for what' ; s now known as Transamerica. And so so he does go back. But, but not right away. So my father' ; s enrolled in school and you know he' ; s walking, he' ; s a, he' ; s a, he' ; s a young kid, now he' ; s probably about 9, 10, 11, 12 years old and one day, he' ; s coming back from school, a big group of kids come and harass him all the way home. And that happens several days. And he' ; s expecting again on the next week and another big group of guys come running down, and it' ; s the Boy Scouts and a bunch of Boy Scout troop walks him home and does that every day for him. So you can imagine the effects that that love you know that protection meant to a person like my father, right, who was afraid because, you know, everyone is calling him out, he' ; s a young kid. He doesn' ; t know why, right? You know, and he just doesn' ; t look the same as them, right? And that really affected him. My father actually became the first Japanese American to earn the Silver Buffalo which is the highest award given to a civilian, even to a person in from the Boy Scouts in the same year that President Clinton was awarded his. And you know, I' ; m very proud of that. But that just shows you how affected, deeply affected, appreciable, appreciate, how much he appreciated, for his life, right? And for hope that, that there are people that truly understand that we really are one. And so, so probably of all the things that come out of the camps and in that, in that, you know, transition back into, reintegration, back into into life was some of the really I mean more pointed, you know, things that happened and recollections. But we don' ; t have, you know, the family was quiet and the family gets back into the community. And my my father' ; s siblings all sisters, marry very well. The top attorney' ; s firm, at the top this and top. It' ; s amazing how after World War II in this state of Hawai' ; i, what became the state of Hawai' ; i, how amazingly, how can I say? Focused the Japanese community was to reestablish in Hawai' ; i and then make a difference, to be leaders in community and business, right, in politics. And so you can go back to the Senator Inouye, Sparky Matsunaga, you know, as a politicians, that that rose. You can look at the business owners that are out there the banks that arose because of that time like Central Pacific Bank was built because of the Nisei Veterans. And so the whole reality of that world, you know, was, was changing. Becoming, maybe becoming much stronger because of that, that whole time. So, yeah. AT: 27:57 I want to be sure to ask you about, your different positions with Go For Broke and JANM. And if you could just talk a little bit. SK: 28:05 Thank you. AT: 28:05 About how you got involved and you know, and where that desire to get involved came from? SK: 28:07 So today, I have the great honor and privilege to be on two amazing, actually three amazing national organizations within the community. And there' ; s a, there' ; s a major reason for each one. So let me start with Japanese American National Museum. Um I didn' ; t know about the camps. Here we just talked about it and I' ; m still learning every day. And I had to learn because I, I witnessed a presentation to the State of Hawai' ; i, the leadership in the state of Hawai' ; i. And to go to the school and I went to I went to a very expensive private school. My classmate became the president of the United States. And I never heard the story. My family was incarcerated, one of only 800 of 120,000, only 800 in Hawai' ; i, from Hawai' ; i. And I never heard about it. I played in the backyard and so played in the backyard and with G.I. Joe, and and was yelling Go for Broke didn' ; t even know where that came from you know and to learn at a function about my own parents' ; history was not only embarrassing but it was shocking, that it was shocking to the core because here I was true blue America, American. I truly, truly believe in the tapestry that all of the country' ; s representative make for this amazing filtered right through all the take out the bad bring in the good and that' ; s how I felt, America was all about. And so to learn that way, just told me that, the stories needed to be told. They had to be in schools, they have to be beyond our insulated family and our communities. And because you know because of all the things that you know you' ; ve heard, right? And Go For Broke and I have the honor today to serve on that board as well. JANM I' ; m a trustee and at Go For Broke today, I serve as a chair. I was never going to be a part of that organization, but it was because of a beer party that I went to that I was mesmerized by what it all meant. That here was the most highly decorated unit in military history coming out of the camps, coming from bombed Hawai' ; i. And to go on and fight for the country that put them behind barbed wire, put my family behind barbed wire. That again that I didn' ; t know that, right? That I didn' ; t realize that the people around me were heroes. Heroes not only to myself but to the United States because of what they represented because of what they did because what they believed in. And again, I not knowing this amazing story had to again get beyond our community. And why I didn' ; t want to initially be a part of that was I had nobody that went to War. And these were clubs. It was a club that was just honoring the many who served. And, and, and, and I told the leadership at the time, you know, I' ; d love to come on the board if it goes national and it' ; s education. If it' ; s nationally focused on education to provide that, based upon the stories, the voices of those that actually served that I could actually experience, so that they might touch the values, our values, to the core. Really, let us question ourselves because of the experiences they had, that that was worth being a part of. And, and so Go For Broke became a coveted place to be for me when they said Stephen we' ; re going national, and we' ; re going because of you, so get on this board. And, and then the third one is a U.S. Japan Council. And, you know, Irene Hirano Inouye, is the one that leads that organization even to this day. She' ; s also the founding executive of the Japanese American National Museum. And why is that such an important organization to me, is because, it' ; s about connecting people to people. And Japanese Americans first to be identified and collected of note across around the country. And then of course to connect with country of our ancestral home. You see, that was a travesty of that time. When War broke out, families had to decide whether they were going to stay here or go back home, right? And, and it disconnected us. When we got out of the camps, the Japanese Americans were fighting to be American, they did not want to be considered Japanese. They were told to go an integrated, integrate and they did. Right. And so we didn' ; t know that so-and-so was achieving certain things in this place or that place. And and we didn' ; t stay connected with the Japanese because the Japanese were occupied by America, and the Japanese wanted to be American. And they started to tie in with with America beyon, beyond the Japanese Americans the ones that left before them you know? And so there' ; s this huge disconnect that took place. And so um U.S. Japan Council becomes extremely important because finally, finally we' ; re holding hands again. We' ; re finally learning about each other, to understand and appreciate our differences. Right? And and so that we can engage like every other community represented here in the United States. And that' ; s just a travesty of war. And so so I am so very blessed to be on that path to help bring that understanding and appreciation. And what better time than now, right? Where we have this real true globalization taking place. The realization that where we come from and where we go to, it' ; s so much easier to do and yet we stand on shoulders where we step towards, right? There' ; s footprints left behind, but absolutely there are footprints before us. And so so I think it' ; s incumbent upon people upon people like myself who can' ; t be a part of this driving force to bring it beyond the whispers of our own homes and to share it. So that might learn and do better in the future make better decisions. That' ; s really, really important. AT: 35:01 In your opinion, what are, what are some of the lessons that need to be taken from, um, the experiences of World War II? And what kind of responsibilities or obligations to Japanese Americans, have toward that history? SK: 35:25 Yeah, I think some of us, I think all of us have a different sort of viewpoint. You can imagine it' ; s not about alienating anybody um that' ; s unintelligent. You know we don' ; t we don' ; t uh retaliate with anger because of something that happened to us. And yet it' ; s because things happen to us, we have we do have an obligation of responsibility, I suppose you could say, to share those stories. Because the decisions we make have rippling effects that go beyond the immediate. And we really have to think about who we want to be as as a country, who want who we want to be as individuals. What kind of people we should be. And by looking at the way that the Japanese Americans responded during their, at that time, and to hear the individual stories, especially from their own voices I think is the greatest way to be able to to hear unencumbered by the voices of others today the opinions of others to hear what they went through, because they went through it. To hear how they dealt with it. And to and to ask ourselves, you know, would I do it this way? And should I do it that way? And it doesn' ; t matter whether I think you' ; re a politician or you' ; re a victim, right? A targeted community, or someone that' ; s just judgmental, you know. We really need to know, and, and we really need, I mean, people really need to know that when we, in the face of fear, you know, we really need to be careful as to getting ahead of ourselves perhaps because a travesty ripples forever, so but. You know you ask that question, it' ; s a, it' ; s a, it' ; s a tough one right? Because social injustice is such a huge part of what I think democracy is supposed to be fighting against. And to be able to appreciate our differences is sometimes a very difficult thing. And yet of all the places in the world America is a place that should celebrate it and share the beauty of it and not become what we despise because of our feelings, right? It' ; s tougher sometimes to to face things like bigotry and hate. But I think if you can give bigotry and hate the true outcomes of what that can lead to and they, and people learn from that. And that' ; s a big thing. That' ; s a great thing. And so I' ; m very hopeful that as you ask what the community should do that the community will do and I' ; m so happy that they are doing. You know, if responding to, to what happened after 9/11 you know responding to some of the commentary that' ; s coming out because of the quote unquote " ; nationalism" ; that takes place. And but those voices are important too. And so I think that the most important part is to be able to share that experience because we' ; ve had it. AT: 39:02 Well, thank you so much ?for coming in and seeing the show, and speaking with me here. Before we completely wrap up is there anything else you' ; d like to add, or that I might have missed? SK: 39:14 Yeah. Yeah, I want to add one other thing and I missed, I missed two things and I want to share one very, very important one. And that is I said I' ; m proud to be part of three national organizations. And I guess the question the national organizations have to ask themselves is: What does it mean to be national? And what I really believe is that it' ; s about being local and that the regional regions and the locations around the country have so many varied experiences. What happens in Hawai' ; i and what happened in Hawai' ; i is very different from from the West Coast, which is very different from here in Chicago, right? I mean Hawai' ; i was bombed, they were angry. You know, they wanted to fight, you have everything that is taken away from you. In California on the West Coast you know it' ; s a very different dynamic. You' ; re herded like cattle behind barbed wire you know? In Hawai' ; i you' ; re fighting to try to be a part of the war you know. And everything else in between. And so what you' ; re doing here at Alphawood, right? By sharing the story and bringing in your part of the story, right, is I think phenomenal. And us as an organization, us, when I say us, the boards that I serve on the organizations that I serve I really need to be a part of this this effort and to make sure that we are contributing to the extent that we can. And I know there' ; s time frames and I know there' ; s all those kinds of things but it' ; s really truly an admonition I think, to myself. Talking about responsibility that I would have to learn from somebody from an industry organization that isn' ; t a book club who is part of another organization that worked with your leadership to learn about what' ; s happening right here in Chicago on the very community, right, that and stories, a set of stories that were supposedly capturing on a national basis. So god bless Densho, Tom Ikeda at Densho, because he can do that because of the way his venue works and he' ; s fabulous. But um I, I hope that you have more just con, confidence in all of us because we should be sharing that voice. And I' ; m really anxious to to do more, with organizations like Alphawood, because I think this is a great forum I' ; m looking at the people walking in your doors and I' ; m looking at the people looking at the photos and I' ; m looking at the people that' ; s engaging with you wanting to share with you more. And I' ; m reminded of what happened the first we first started the efforts in Southern California as an example, and how the same thing sort of happened it' ; s very different, you know the way it' ; s been captured today. But it' ; s people like yourselves that' ; s going to take it beyond the borders beyond the borders of our own again communities that have kept this silence, right? And, and um it' ; s, it' ; s really an amazing, I think um if you really look at it, the journey of the Japanese Americans captured in three generations, right? The fight for immigration and citizenship to be challenged and to lose it, right? To come back and be the most celebrated and decorated, is, is just phenomenal. A phenomenal, I think, reflection of what the beauty and travesty of democracy can, can be. And, and so I really I just honor what I' ; ve seen today here at Alphawood, I need to say, that' ; s the second part I want to say. And so god bless all of you then. It' ; s good stuff. AT: 43:08 Thank you so much. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KagawaStephen20171101.xml KagawaStephen20171101.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KagawaStephen20171101.xml
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Kagawa, Stephen (11/1/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen Kagawa is a fourth generation (Yonsei) Japanese American born and raised in Hawaii. In this interview, he shares what he has learned about his family's roots in Japan and immigration to Hawaii, and describes his paternal grandfather's interactions with the FBI and eventual detention at Sand Island after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He continues with his grandfather's transfer to Jerome, Arkansas, where his wife and children joined him. He describes his father's experiences as a child in Des Moines, Iowa where the family lived briefly before returning to Hawaii. In explaining his motivations for serving on the boards of the Japanese American National Museum, Go For Broke, and the U.S. Japan Council, he reveals that he knew none of his own family's incarceration history until adulthood and expresses his commitment to ensuring that this history is more widely known.
Date
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2017-11-01
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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eb11c097f046394a2f31218794c48ac9
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kaihatsu, Jane
Interview Keyword
Santa Anita
Heart Mountain
Tanforan
Gila River
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Sansei
Jefferson Park
Park Ridge
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Japanese Cinema
Tri-C
Christ Church of Chicago
Drum and Bugle Corps
Buddhist Temple of Chicago
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
Toguri Mercantile
Star Market
Japanese American Citizens League
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/27/2017 Kaihatsu, Jane (10/27/2017) 1:16:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Santa Anita Heart Mountain Tanforan Gila River 442nd Regimental Combat Team Sansei Jefferson Park Park Ridge Edgewater Beach Hotel Japanese Cinema Tri-C Christ Church of Chicago Drum and Bugle Corps Buddhist Temple of Chicago Chicago Nisei Athletic Association Toguri Mercantile Star Market Japanese American Citizens League Kaihatsu, Jane Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307611133 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307611133?h=330b9d7f32" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Jane Kaihatsu is a third generation Japanese American (Sansei), born and raised in the Chicago area. In this interview she shares what she knows of the immigration and incarceration experiences of her mother's and father's families and describes her own experiences growing up first in Chicago and then in the suburb of Park Ridge. Jane details the many community events and organizations she and her siblings participated in and shares memories of her father's efforts to screen Japanese movies for a Chicago audience. She describes the challenges of growing up in Park Ridge where there were few other Japanese Americans, and the feeling of being an outsider in the Japanese American community because of her suburban upbringing. She also recalls the experience of being the first sansei, first woman, and youngest person to serve as president of the Chicago chapter of the Japanese American Citizens League. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 Can you please just state your full name? Jane Kaihatsu: 00:00:02 Yes, my name is Jane Beth Kaihatsu. AT: 00:00:06 And then where and when were you born? JK: 00:00:09 I was born on June 2nd, 1957 at Chicago' ; s Wesley Memorial Hospital on the North Side and unfortunately it was torn down and part of the greater Northwestern University hospital campus. AT: 00:00:24 Okay, so that' ; s North Shore? JK: 00:00:28 Um, it' ; s on the North, near North Side of Chicago. AT: 00:00:30 Okay. And, um, and where did you grow up? JK: 00:00:34 Well, uh, initially I, I understand, um, when I was born, my parents were living in the Old Town area near North Avenue in North Park Avenue, which is just, um, uh, west of Wells Street. And then, uh, we moved to, um, when I guess I was about two years old to the far Northwest side of Chicago, an area called Jefferson Park. And I lived at 5131 West Ainslie. And we lived, um, in Jefferson Park. Um, my older brother Donald and then I had um anoth, another brother, Eddie, another sister, Nancy and another sister. And so there' ; s five of us all together, until 1965, until I was eight years old. So I went to Chicago Public Schools in Jefferson Park, will be in school from kindergarten until second grade. AT: 00:01:27 And where are you in the birth order? JK: 00:01:29 I' ; m the second oldest. I' ; m the oldest daughter. AT: 00:01:33 Um, and so like I mentioned, um, I' ; d love to hear a little bit more about your, your family' ; s story and background. And how your parents ended up in Chicago. So, um, can you just start by telling me what you know of, where your parents are from and kind of how they ended up here. JK: 00:01:56 Okay. Um, let' ; s see. Um, I' ; ll start with my father' ; s family. The Kaihatsu side. My father is Omar Kaihatsu and he' ; s also one of five children. He' ; s the middle child and his parents, um, are um Issei who came from Japan. My grandfather, Masajiro Kaihatsu, came from Japan, um, in 1905 and 1906 to San Francisco. And then settled in Los Angeles. And, um, his wife, my grandmother Kuwa Kaihatsu came in 1919 and she, uh, was a picture bride, as they, they called them. But actually, uh, Masajiro Kaihatsu had an unusual occupation. He worked in silent films as a silent film actor and Kuwa had seen him in Japanese movie magazines back in Nagoya where she was from. Um, Masajiro is from the Hyogoken area of a city called Akashi. But anyway, the story goes, she wrote him fan letters. Uh, by this time he had been in the U.S. about 15 years and needed to be married. So they exchanged letters and he brought her over as his bride to Hollywood, where they were living. And uh, they were very unusual people. She was sent to English lessons. She was taught Western cooking and Western sewing. And so my dad and his siblings were raised not in a completely traditional Japanese manner in Hollywood. And, um, so they lived there, uh, until the war. Um, Masajiro unfortunately died in 19, uh, 38 of tuberculosis and my grandmother and family really struggled. And I understand that then she went back to Japan to sell some land in, what is now Tokyo area, and I always think about, boy, if they hadn' ; t sold that land, our family would be quite different. But in any case, the Kaihatsu' ; s were ah evacuated at first to Santa Anita Assembly Center. And then they ended up at Heart Mountain, um, Relocation Center. My father, Omar was, uh, one of the first to leave. Uh, he was actually about 15, 16 years old at the time of evacuation, internment. And, um, being a young man, very restless, he was anxious to get out. So I understand he worked, uh, as a farm laborer picking vegetables for a short time, but eventually made his way to Chicago, probably about 1943 and stayed at the Lawson Y. And it was in Chicago where the selective service caught up to him and he was drafted into the segregated unit, the 442nd, um, RCT where he served in France and Italy. And then, um, in the meantime, while the other Kaihatsu' ; s were in Heart Mountain, the other, the next person to leave was my Aunt Martha and she was the oldest. She had actually gotten everybody to camp, um, you know, got rid of the house, the possessions, and she found a job in Chicago and got an apartment in Hyde Park. And then as the camps closed, uh, she brought her mother and the two youngest brothers from Heart Mountain to Chicago. Another one of Omar' ; s older brothers was in the military intelligence service, the MIS. And when the war ended, my Uncle Art from the MIS, and then Omar from the 442, ended up coming back to Chicago where Martha had established the family and she was working in, in, at the Chicago Sun at that time, she had been a journalist at the Rafu Shimpo in Los Angeles. And as soon as she saw the family was settled, she decided to move on to New York where she had a career in advertising and Omar and his mother and the rest of the family stayed here. Um, now my mother' ; s family AT: 00:06:09 Can I ask a question? JK: 00:06:09 Oh, oh, sure. Of course. AT: 00:06:13 So, uh, your dad is serving and then do you know about what year he actually came to Chicago? JK: 00:06:20 Um, 1945 or 46, I guess. Yeah. AT: 00:06:26 And then do you, do you know, um, like the ages of his eldest? Was Margaret the eldest? JK: 00:06:38 Yes, mhm. AT: 00:06:39 Do you know about how old she was at the time of the war? JK: 00:06:43 Um, let me see. She was born in 1920s, so she was 22, years old. AT: 00:06:49 And do you know, um, you said that she kind of, um, was charged with taking care of organizing the family. Um, was there a particular reason for that? JK: 00:07:02 Well, I think, AT: 00:07:05 With their father gone? JK: 00:07:05 Yes, I think when, uh, their, their father, he was ill for two years. So I, I think essentially, he was not really involved with the family since 1935. So she was like, uh, 15, 15, um, I guess kids grew up a lot quicker in that age. And I know she had worked as a domestic in Beverly Hills, um, for some wealthy families there. And the other brother Arthur was at UCLA, he was in college and I think, um, the family really wanted him to succeed. So that' ; s a, that' ; s an interesting question, why it was Martha and not Arthur that was put in charge, but Martha had already been out working I think. And she' ; s a very strong willed person, probably even back then. And um, just kind of took charge. AT: 00:08:00 Um, thank you, yeah. I just wanted to clear that up before. JK: 00:08:06 Of course. Uhuh. AT: 00:08:06 So your, your mother' ; s family? JK: 00:08:08 Yes, my mother is from the San Francisco Bay Area. She' ; s from a town called Alameda, which is across the Bay, near Oakland. And her parents, Jiro Yano is her father, and he came to the United States probably about the same time as my Masajiro did in 1906. Uh, Jiro had been in the Japanese Navy during the Russo-Japanese war as a sailor. Um, he was kind of a, I don' ; t want to say ne' ; er-do-well cause it' ; s a little bit too strong. But in the prefecture Fukuoka where he' ; s from, he came from a well to do family. They had um, they owned land and, and people farmed the land for them. So he didn' ; t really have much to do. And so he joined the Navy. Uh, he was actually in battle during the Russo-Japanese War. And then after the war was over, he joined the British Merchant Marines and sailed around the world. And when they came to San Francisco and the ship docked up, uh, I was told that he tested the tides and I think about it, they' ; re supposedly shark infested waters, but somehow he figured that out and he jumped ship and swam to shore. And that' ; s how he got to San Francisco and met up with some friends and then eventually, um, was working in, in, uh, as a domestic, I understand, and then, um, wanted to get married and wrote back to his village and Fukuoka. So my grandmother was from the same, uh, town or in the same area as he was versus the Kaihatsu' ; s were from completely different areas. And my grandmother was one of um seven girls, I believe. And she was part samurai. She had, uh, her own servant and, but she was chosen to go to America and marry this guy. And it did not go over very well. And for the rest of her life, she vowed she would never return to Japan because she felt so betrayed. But nonetheless, she did go over and marry him. And then they had three children, three daughters. And my mother, Rose is the youngest and the um family ran a grocers in Berkeley for awhile. Um, my grandfather Jiro also worked as a cook and the chef. And so they' ; re, I guess involved with food. And then at the time of the Evacuation, they had a, um, grocery store in Berkeley, which they had to unload, but they decided that to try and evade the evacuation, they went to the Sacramento Area. And, uh, of course that doesn' ; t work because the Exclusion Zone became the entire state of California. So my mother always told me that as she hated that aspect of, or that decision that her parents made because it meant that she was not evacuated with her friends and other people that she knew well from the Buddhist Temple, she was evacuated with strangers and she was very shy person. But they, so they ended up um, going to Tanforan Assembly Center and then she went to Gila River, Arizona, Assembly Center. And you know, made, made friends there. I' ; m not sure come to think of where the Alameda people did end up. I think they might' ; ve ended up at Topaz from the Bay Area, but in any case, she went to Gila River. And in her case, uh, the first one to leave camp was her middle sister, Yuri, who got a job in Chicago in, uh, Winnetka, actually for a wealthy family working as a domestic. And when Yuri had saved enough money to get her own apartment on the North Side in Uptown, she sent for my mother and her parents and in, an already married elder sister who had two children, actually two of my cousins were born in camp. And they all came to Chicago, probably around 1945 and lived in Uptown. And my mother was in her senior year of high school and she belongs the fact that she couldn' ; t finish, um, high school in camp. She came to Sun High School on the North Side, again with complete strangers. Everybody knew each other by the time they' ; re seniors. And so she always felt very alone. But she graduated. And then, uh, she and my dad met at a party and I can' ; t recall right now whose party it was, but my dad took the L from the South Side up to the North Side. So it' ; s, um, now the red line they call it. At that time it was the Dan Ryan and the Howard L, to visit her. And they were married in 1948. Um, initially they lived, um, at that address where I was born in North Park Avenue and North Avenue. And um, should mention it was a housing project at the time. It was public, public housing and there were other displaced persons from Europe. They called them DP refugees from Europe. And they were also African Americans. So it was a very interesting mixed area for my older brother to grow up in. I think he lived there until he was about seven or eight years old. AT: 00:13:26 And you said you were about two years old? JK: 00:13:28 Right when I moved. I, so I don' ; t have any memory of North Park, you know, I just remember Jefferson Park. AT: 00:13:36 Um, thank you. That' ; s quite a comprehensive family history. Um, I wanted, I want to ask you, so you, you clearly have a lot of the details of, um, your family' ; s experiences and trajectory, um, before and during the war, and after the war. Um, would, what is that process been like in learning your family' ; s story? Is that coming, is that information coming from your parents themselves or? JK: 00:14:19 Yes, I, I, from my mother, I would say mostly. And then the Kaihatsu side, I probably learned most of it from my Aunt Martha. So the two women that told us stories. Um, my mother has been really important in terms of making sure that we understood Japanese culture. I believe compared to my father, she had a more traditional Japanese upbringing or her parents are more traditional that way. She went to Japanese school. Um, when she was a, I know, think that my father in his family ever did go to Japanese school. I know they wanted just to be really American and, and Western as possible. So from my earliest memories, um, I, I don' ; t think it was, although I might have felt shame about being Japanese, it was not something that my parents felt. I think it was something that I felt shame about being Japanese in reaction to how others were, were treating me. And in particular, um, I actually, I stopped at Jefferson Park, um, but I lived there until 1965 until I was eight years old. And then we moved to Park Ridge, which is far North or Northwest suburbs, that' ; s all white. I do remember my mom saying that, um, uh, should we really move there? Because Park Ridge was not exactly a welcoming place where minorities, Ernie Banks, the famous baseball player, tried to, uh, buy a house in Park Ridge and was turned down. There were no African Americans, there were no Jews, in Park Ridge. So it was kind of a bold move on my parents' ; part to move there. But I don' ; t recall that many racial incidents. I know my brother, my older brother did. He had was going to Lane Tech until we moved and then he went to Main South, uh, High School in Park Ridge. Hillary Clinton was there, at the time, it was her senior year. And he remembers her, but he did experienced some racial incidents, especially in, I could probably say this for a lot of us Sansei' ; s growing up in the 60s and 70s, you know, no one liked going to school on December 7th. It was an anniversary date that, uh, uh, we all dreaded. And I know I certainly dreaded, I know my older brother dreaded too. I think some, um, kid tried to urinate on him or something. Or snowballs, I know were routinely thrown at us, at me, I know, on December 7th. AT: 00:17:03 Oh, well I want to, okay. That' ; s something I definitely want to come back to. Um, but, uh, first I want to hear a little bit more about, um, kind of how, um, the communication with you and your mother in theory is about, was, was she open and, and your father too, did you grow up knowing about their experiences during the war or knowing that they went to camper? How was that information kind of passed on to you as far as you remembered? JK: 00:17:46 Okay, I think, when I first learned about what the Interment camps were, it was a junior high school, I think seventh grade. But up until that point, all the time growing up, we would hear about other Nisei friends is, I know so-and-so from camp or so and so and I were in the same camp, so-and-so, we' ; re in the, you know, they were in that camp and we were in this camp. And the entire time I, I think, I thought it was a summer camp, you know, was something fun or enjoyable because when they saw each other from camp or talked about camp, they didn' ; t have misery or unhappiness or pain in their face. And in middle school, it might' ; ve come up in the history book or something like that. And I said, look at this camp the Japanese Americans were in. And I think then my mother said that we were in that camp too. And I said, you were I said, Oh really? And so she tried to explain it. And then about that time in the late 60s, early 70s, there was a spate of books coming out, America' ; s Concentration Camp. Then the author escapes me now. Then Bill Hosokawa wrote this book when I was in high school, and Nisei the Quiet Americans. Um, there was the Black Power Movement, which in the West Coast translated into the Yellow Power Movement. So our cousins in California were becoming more actively involved about identity issues and things like that. So I think by that point, at least as far as my mom was concerned, it was very easy to talk about. And I asked a lot of questions too. I eventually became a history major in college. So I was always very interested in history and current events anyway. AT: 00:19:32 And uh, so your, your mom is on, like, she was pretty open talking about those experiences? JK: 00:19:39 Mhm. AT: 00:19:39 Um, what are some, some, are there any memories or stories of either hers or your father' ; s that kind of stick out to you or you know, when you think about, um, Kaihatsu, like your, uh um, I guess collective camp experiences. Are there any like? JK: 00:20:02 Well, certainly. Things that, um, I' ; ve been told, um, by some people, but my mom told a lot of these stories too. Uh, Omar Kaihatsu was notorious. He was larger than life and uh, apparently and the long train ride to Heart Mountain, um, where the shades were drawn and it was very uncomfortable. Uh, there was an Issei man that kept picking on him for some reason in, in what manner, I' ; m not sure. But apparently when they got to fart, Heart Mountain, Omar got in a fight with this Issei man and punched him out. And this man fell and hit his head on a rock. And, uh, got Omar arrested for attempted murder. So they had to hire an attorney. Um, um, Issei man by the name of Mr. Fuji, who I believe resettled in Chicago too. But other people who I' ; ve met, like when I used to live in, in San Francisco and, or visit California and even, and even in Japan, I met a man that knew my dad in camp. And they used to call Omar the gangster. When he walk in the dining hall with his gang, he kicked open the door. Um, just things like that. He ended up in the Army boxing and, um, was just an, and then when he got out of the Army too and came to the Chicago before he was drafted, he was a, um, boxer at the Golden Gloves Gym and boxed in the Catholic Youth League. And we found, I found a little article where he actually won a, um, an award. We had, have the little medal, and he was written up in the Tribune about it. So that' ; s, um, Omar Kahaitsu' ; s reputation in camp. Uh, he didn' ; t really talk about any of the times there except it was boring. Uh, my Aunt Martha spoke a little bit more. She just said she remembers Congressman Norman Mineta who became Secretary Norman Mineta at Heart Mountain is a little boy and they would call him little Normy running around all over the place. Um, as far as the Kahaitsu' ; s his life in camp, I mean, I have pictures of my Uncle Gordon who was the Omar' ; s youngest brother. He was a Boy Scout. And he had learned to play the bugle and he actually loved jazz music and, and that followed him the rest of his life. Oh, my mom, Rose, she was in middle school when she was at Gila River and she thought it was, it was really hot. Uh, there, there was a lot of sand. They did try and see if they could fry an egg on the board. But, um, she doesn' ; t have any unpleasant memories except for it being very hard to make friends. But she did make some friends and she' ; s still talks about some friends from Gila River even today. Uh, coming to Chicago, oh, neither one of them really talked about what that experience was. And when I think about it now, out of all the relatives I had, you know, no one ever talked about what it was like, that transition, they just somehow they were in Chicago. Ah my father, I know, after the service, um, found some interesting artifacts in his drawer. He came home from Italy via Egypt via, so he was in Cairo, then he went to Sao Paulo, Brazil and then landed in New York and then went to Chicago via that way. And that was kind of interesting. He said if it weren' ; t for the Army, he would' ; ve never seen the rest of the world at that young age. Um, so Omar was not really in camp very long. Um, I him, why didn' ; t you resist, once, like the No-No Boys said and he said, because I didn' ; t want to go to prison. I said, okay, that' ; s a good answer. And my mother, um, yeah, again, she just, as a young teenager, she just, and a female, I guess just did what she was told and, and really didn' ; t have to worry about anything. That was her older siblings concerns. AT: 00:24:11 Well, JK: 00:24:11 Oh, I, there is one story I do remember about my grandmother, which is kind of interesting. Um, my grandmother when she came to Chicago, ended up working as a maid at the Edgewater Beach Hotel cleaning and housekeeping. And this is a person that I mentioned was part Samurai, had had a servant, didn' ; t want to be in the U.S. in the first place, right? And now is ended up working as hotel maid. Well, at one point during the early 1950s, I think just after my brother was born in 51' ; , um, she had a psychotic episode. Where, um, she was brandishing a knife and she had locked my grandfather, uh, I believe he was also working in the Edgewater Beach Hotel in the kitchen as a chef. Um, she locked him out of the apartment and then finally, um, they had to, they called the doctor and in those days, men in white coats came to take you away, which was a stereotype. And she had to be taken away in a straight jacket. And she was hospitalized in inpatient psychiatric for by the week. And my mom said that she was very quiet when she saw the men in the white coats. Um, my mom felt that she felt profound, embarrassment, my grandmother. So she became very docile at that point. And after which she was fine. The doctor felt that she was just tired, tired from the war, tired from the Evacuation, the camp, to moving the Chicago, the harsh winter, working as a maid in the hotel and she just collapsed. And ever since then she' ; s never, you know, had any incidents. But I kinda think, you know, looking back of it, it' ; s a wonder that more people didn' ; t really, you know, crack up. When you think about it. AT: 00:26:10 I think, I would argue that a lot of people have. But you know, It' ; s just not really talked about. JK: 00:26:17 Right. I do remember my mom saying that someone did. I said, when she told me that story about her grandma, her mother having a psychotic episode, I said, um, were there anything else she said? One man hung himself in Lincoln Park. And I don' ; t know if it was an Issei or Nisei, but there was that notorious incident. But then she said, but everybody else was in the same situation. Everybody that we knew, you didn' ; t have time to go crazy, you know, you just had to get back on your feet and keep going. AT: 00:26:53 Are there in, in your own life, in your own experiences, has there been any, um, have you seen any like impacts of the Incarceration or Resettlement kind of, shape your own experiences in a way? Or any kind of legacies from these experiences play out in your own life? JK: 00:27:23 Well, I think, um, being a Kaihatsu and knowing Omar' ; s ah reputation. On one half of me I think, and then growing up in Park Ridge on top of that, far, far from the community, we did not see the Japanese community everyday, but my mother made sure that we went to a Japanese Christian Church. And she herself was raised Buddhist, but she maintained ties with both Buddhist Temples of the North Side and, and the Midwest Buddhist Temple. Um, so in on sense we, my brothers and sisters and I were not raised, uh, in a traditional Nikkei, now, if you can call it, manner. We were more outspoken. We were around, uh, Caucasians all day long. So, you know, that' ; s how I think our, our personalities were formed. But yeah, and the other side, I think there is a, a shred of legacy in that we did not pursue, um, we were not out there too much. We were out, we were more perhaps outspoken or even aggressive than other Japanese Americans, but not to the extent of non-Japanese Americans of Caucasians, for example. I always felt more reticent, um, they had to measure up. And then another, uh, impart to the family, which is more Japanese, I don' ; t think it was, has anything to do with the internment, but the concept of shame and not embarrassing your family. And so, we' ; re, I know, I felt very conscious of my actions. I was not going to do anything to cause, uh, unwanted attention to anything I did. So I didn' ; t stand out. But, um, but I wasn' ; t a failure, either. So. AT: 00:29:10 Um, but, and I, I think now I' ; ve kind of want to connect that to your experiences growing up in, in Chicago. Um, so, um, so at first your, your parents were in Old Town Area and then moved to Jefferson Park. And you said in 65' ; is when you moved to Park Ridge? Um, so that you would have been a little bit less than ten years old. Can you tell me about um, your, probably your first memories in the Jefferson Park area? JK: 00:30:03 Yes, um, Jefferson Park, at that time, was, um, not very city, like when you think about it, that is, for example, in this area of Lincoln Park where it' ; s very dense. It was, it was more like a suburb. Now when I go there today, I think, wow, the houses are close together except for our house because we had a side yards. So we didn' ; t have people really right next to us except on one side. And it was a very happy time for me because we could walk anywhere. Um, I remember when the expressway, the Kennedy Expressway was built and we watched it being built and being inaugurated and the school was nearby. We could walk to school and there' ; s a school store that we could go to and buy candy. Um, my brother went to cub scouts, at the nearby by Church and, uh, there' ; s was a firehouse I know we used to visit with a real Dalmatian dog. My younger sister Nancy used to play with the dog, so it was very pleasant. Now when I grew up later I found out that, um, uh, it was a very, uh, racially segregated area. There' ; s a lot of, uh, whites to, didn' ; t take kindly to African American' ; s. And my mom said there was a Black police officer, young man who tried to rent the apartment cause he was stationed at the Jefferson Park station and he was nearly run out. He couldn' ; t. And I, I wanna to say there was a anti-Martin Luther King demonstration but, I can' ; t be sure completely. But anyway, there' ; s a lot of unpleasantness going on and racial hostility. But I don' ; t recall feeling any of it. And again, my older brother may have had a different story. AT: 00:31:51 Were there other, um, Japanese American families or even Asian? JK: 00:31:55 Yeah, actually there was, and maybe I wonder if that was the reason why we moved to Jefferson Park. There was one family, the Katahira' ; s who lived close by and they were members of our church, Christ Church of Chicago. And up until fairly recently, Mrs Katahira lived there, I think until two years ago. Yeah, but they were the only ones I don' ; t. Oh, and there was a Chinese family. We used to get Chinese food there, from the Moi' ; s. AT: 00:32:24 And, um, what kind of, besides school and church, were you involved in any of their activities with as a kid? JK: 00:32:34 Um, once I grew up in, we moved to Park Ridge. Yes. Um, oh, I, myself, I uh, from about middle school, I guess when all my interests in the camps in Japanese things came about. Um, we, uh, went for Japanese dancing, odori, through the Shizako Imbei Dance Troupe and Ms. Imbei was a member of the Buddhist Temple of Chicago and so all the instructors and other members who are, um, primarily members from there. So we took that every Sunday. My sisters and I, and even my brother did classical dancing for a while. My young, my younger brother had, um, well in birth order, my older brother, Donald, uh, I don' ; t think he took judo, but he was involved in the Nisei Ambassadors Drum and Bugle Corps for several years. And they were based out of the Buddhist Temple of Chicago. And I was a color guard in the junior corps for awhile. But I know that was a big part of our growing up, going to all his practices and then parades and exhibition. We follow the corps all summer long and still have lifelong friends from that experience. My parents did, and even, I do via my brother, Don. A my younger brother Eddie went to, um, well, we all went to Japanese school. Um, me, Eddie, Nancy, and Anne and that' ; s how I know your grandmother Takada Sensei through Japanese school. Um, Eddie went to judo and he also, um, play kendo. And it was actually from kendo that he, uh, acquired a love of, of fencing, foil fencing, and he became an accomplished fencer in high school, uh, in college. And then in university, um, he became, uh, the assistant women' ; s fencing coach at Northwestern for awhile and he' ; s still fences today. So that was from BTC. Nancy and Anne uh, and Eddie too, they, um, played ah softball and basketball in the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association. I because I have bad eyes, and I played the violin, was not doing any sports. I wasn' ; t involved in that. But I would go to their games and when I learned to drive, drive them around, so I was a part of it too. And my peers at Tri-C were involved in those sports, um, activities too, but I couldn' ; t participate in those or I chose not to. AT: 00:35:07 Hmm. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about the drum and bugle corps? Maybe what, what they did? You said they met out of BTC? JK: 00:35:18 Mhm, okay. They, were, as I understand it, it was, in those days and it still might be, the drum and bugle corps were sponsored by the American Legion is a, as a youth activity and this includes non-Japanese communities, all communities had these drum and bugle corps throughout the country. And this one, um sponsored by the Nisei Post was open to youth. I think he had to be 13 from 13 until 21 years old. And then you aged out. So they formed themselves as the Nisei, Nisei Ambassadors. And it was kids from all over. And then I understand there were some Chinese kids, although Chinese, Chinatown had their own band. And then there are some African American kids that came from the South Side. And I don' ; t to this day, I was wondering how did they find out? But they, but they did come and uh, practiced music too. That' ; s where some, you know, learned about music. But it was, uh, a youth activity in supposedly to keep kids busy. So they would meet for rehearsal either at BTC. And when the corps got too big, they used to meet at the Broadway Armory over on North Broadway. I think it' ; s near Granville. And have practices there. We had fundraisers, fundraising for uniforms and at the beginning, all the mothers, sewed the uniforms, except for the pants. They used to wear purple satin blouses. And I remember my mom, sewing my brothers and making sashes and things like that. And then finally they had, um, enough money, um, to buy real uniforms, band to look like band uniforms and of course instruments were purchased by the corps. So it was a huge enterprise. They' ; d start off with a small van and eventually got a big truck. Um, people would cook, make um onigiri, rice balls, and chicken teriyaki. And my older brother Don told me that one of the, uh, African American boys when he got married to an African American woman, he made her learn how to make onigiri and chicken teriyaki because he loved it so much. So I thought that was very, uh, cute. Uh, but it was just a wonderful time. Everybody had a lot of fun. Everybody got along and then as the corps grew and became better, they would win competitions and then they start competing on a national level. I remember going to Washington D.C. and New York for competitions. It was very exciting. It was a family vacation for us. They performed on the capital, steps. Um, was, you know, Inouye must' ; ve been in Congress, Senator Daniel Inouye must have been in Congress at that time, and also ah representative Spark Matsunaga from Hawai' ; i I think was there too. To welcome and. I remember we did get a tour of the White House and tours of other places in Washington, D.C. through that corps, drum corps trip. AT: 00:38:19 Oh, so it sounds like your, your family is very involved with, you know, the greater Japanese American community in the city, at that time. Um, a lot of this was happening while you were, you all were living in Park Ridge? JK: 00:38:36 Yes, mhm. AT: 00:38:38 And so would you be commuting to different places in the city? JK: 00:38:43 Yes, um, Monday through Friday we were Park Ridge people going to school and Saturdays in the evenings, Saturdays and Sundays we were in the city going to church, going to these sporting events. Um, one reason I think that was responsible for the Kaihatsu kids getting, um, spread around different places. My father, Omar ran an insurance agency. He had his own insurance agency, so he insured just about everybody and everything. And that' ; s how he got to know people, not from just Tri-C, but the Buddhist temples and the other Christian churches, as well. And uh he also had another side business, the Japanese cinema, which he ran at Francis Parker school. Um, he rented the auditorium on Saturday and Sunday to bring, uh, films from Japan, um, which at that time, the only place you could probably see it was at an art movie house. And even then they weren' ; t showing Japanese films very much. It was mostly from Europe and, um, but he would show a modern film, a contemporary film and uh, the called chanbara or a period film, samurai film. Each time there would be three showings, a Saturday night, uh, Sunday matinee, a Sunday evening show. And at first it was mostly community, but then as word got out, we have all kinds of film lovers. And my mother took the tickets and we also served ah Japanese tea and rice crackers uh free of charge at intermission. But my mother said that she remembers, um, she called him a fat kid with glasses coming in and to watch movies. And we think it was probably Roger Ebert. Cause eventually Roger Ebert called Omar and he wrote a story about, you know, this guy showing, uh, Japanese films. And later, um, I ran into Roger Ebert maybe about 15 years ago and he was so funny. I said, hi Roger, you know, my father used to run a Japanese films I wanted to thank you for, and he goes, " ; Wait, wait! Don' ; t tell me, Omar Kaihatsu!" ; Like that. And he just said. Oh, I just wanted to say thank you for the publicity. But he, he was telling the guy who' ; s there from facets, multimedia. He said her dad was a voice in the wilderness showing foreign films when nobody else would touch it. So we were grateful to Roger Ebert for that. And then when John Belushi on Saturday Night Live, had his samurai gig, my mom remembered him coming in to watch the movie. Second City was not far away from Francis Parker and he must' ; ve sat in those horrible. His character we believe is Toshiro Mifune, um, and my dad loved Toshiro Mifune and we showed probably just about every film that Mifune ever made. So I think that' ; s where that samurai, um, character comes from. So again, another reinforcement of Japanese culture that' ; s, you know, very unusual that I' ; m sure other Japanese American kids did not get. Um, so in one sense I, I didn' ; t feel shame about being Japanese American well, I loved the culture, but yet I, I did do want to fit into that Park Ridge culture, community life style. And I always did feel different. So in my own personal case, I feel I' ; ve always been an outsider. I' ; ve been an outsider in the mainstream world because I was Japanese, but within, in my own Japanese American community, I felt like an outsider too. So it' ; s just maybe why I went to Japan for nine years. AT: 00:42:33 Can you tell me more about, um, why you felt like an outsider even in the Japanese American community? JK: 00:42:39 Uh, because I, um, I felt like an outsider in the Japanese American community, um, for a couple reasons. One because I' ; m physically a lot taller than everybody. I' ; m five, five and everybody was, was small and thin and I felt enormous. The other thing was we did not live in the city. So a lot, particularly Tri-C a lot of the people um the other Sansei, saw each other during the week at high school or school, and then they' ; d see each other in church. And so they were all really good friends. I' ; d only see them once a week at best. And the other thing was I did not have that natural reticence that I see in a lot of Japanese Americans. I, again, I was used to dealing with Caucasians with hakujins every single day for sur, to survive. And it was just a part of who I was. And my, my mother not as much, she' ; s very shy. But my father was not shy about anything, about dealing with anybody. So, um, he was like a big role model for me. So that' ; s why I felt, um, outside. It wasn' ; t that anyone was mean to me or anything like that, but I think that' ; s how, uh, the Japanese psyche is, it' ; s not what they say, it' ; s what they don' ; t say. It' ; s not what they do, it' ; s what they don' ; t do. And it was pretty clear to me. AT: 00:44:02 When, when you would make these trips into, into the city, um, were your, your friends and your connections here was mostly everyone, Japanese American or? JK: 00:44:15 Yes, mhm, I would say. Yes. AT: 00:44:19 And uh, I also want to just ask a little bit more about the, the Japanese cinema program. JK: 00:44:25 Sure. AT: 00:44:26 Um, so how do you know how your dad got involved or interested in doing that? And, and around what time was that, also? JK: 00:44:43 Okay. In the early 60s, I want to say about maybe 63' ; or 1964. The Buddhist AT: 00:44:51 Like before [inaudible]? JK: 00:44:52 Right. The Buddhist Temple of Chicago, BTC, was showing Japanese movies in their social hall. I don' ; t know how that came about, but I do remember going to that. And then for some reason, oh, it was, it was a fundraiser, I believe, at the Uptown Theater. This movie called Samurai Rebellion was shown, on the big screen. And it was the first time that I had seen a, a Japanese film on a big screen like that. We had seen it in the social hall and I was just blown away. And I think because of my father' ; s own upbringing as the son of an actor in Hollywood and for all the, the older, the Nisei Kaihatsu' ; s, the interest in film never left them. And so probably seeing what was going on at the BTC gave him the idea, well, why not do this? So he needed a venue. And then, um, he contacted a woman named Mary Sabusawa who was, uh, working at Francis Park, Parker School. Mary Sabusawa' ; s sister was Pat Suzuki. Pat Suzuki' ; s real name is Sabusawa. And so with this kind of showbiz, uh, angle, I guess, Mary Sabusawa was supportive and went to the board at Francis Parker School to allow my father who did not have a child attending the school or anything, uh rent the auditorium. Now how he got the connections to the, the Japanese studios, I' ; m not sure. He might' ; ve, um, contacted why I' ; m thinking the most logical thing is he contacted people, in Los Angeles, his hometown, because Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco, all had up and running Japanese movie theaters. It was called the Toho La Brea at the time. But the major Japanese studios, Toho Studios and Sochiku Films had freestanding movie theaters near Little, Lil' ; Tokyo. And that' ; s probably where he got, uh, in touch with the studios and talked with negotiations for them to ship, uh, the films, the films used to come, um, via air freight to our house in Park Ridge, these giant films. And then my father, um, set up a projection, projector in our basement and screen them to make sure, cause some of the films were a little bit more liberal in terms of sex than, uh, American standards towards. So he would actually edit those parts out and splice it together and then put it back together when he shipped it back to, uh, California or Japan. AT: 00:47:31 Do you, uh, when you came into the city, did your family go to oh, any Japanese American or businesses or do you remember any restaurants or kind of the, the fabric of the, geographic neighborhood too? JK: 00:47:50 Um, coming, well, the only place you could get Japanese food, was Star Market. And Star Market' ; s owners, Howard and Sarah Hatanaga, were members of Tri-C Christ Church, our church. But I remember it was a tiny store front under the L tracks on Clark Street, just south of Wrigley Field. And we were not, we kids were not allowed inside. So it was a big mystery three, cause my mother said it was too small and when I finally was able to get in there, she was right. It was too small. I mean everyone was small then so you could barely get through the aisles. But it was the only place where they had, um, Japanese food. And then for our birthdays, and actually for birthday parties, the goodie bags that I always gave away were, um, little Japanese candies called Tomoe Ame. And it had rice paper wrapped on it. And we used to get that at Toguri' ; s Store on Belmont, near Clark, uh, Toguri' ; s Mercantile, where we would later, when we went to, uh, Obon, odori practice at the Buddhist temples, we would buy our yukata there and things, but Toguri' ; s was the place to buy Japanese goods. And I always remember going in there. Had a very distinct aroma, and I guess it was incense, made me think, or plana wood or something. But this always reminds me of Japan going in there. Uh, for special occasions, birthdays when we could, um, in the early 60s, there was a restaurant, I believe it was in Lincoln Park West called Nakanoya. And they actually had tatami rooms. Um, but they had a hole cut out because no one can sit that way, at that time. So we had sukiyaki and that was a very big deal. I can only remember going there two or three times. But later on, um, another restaurant we used to go to, well prior to that, but this wasn' ; t particularly Japanese food, but it was called Crest. And it wasn' ; t far from Star Market. What street is that? Is that, Racine? It might be Racine. And it' ; s across the, cross away from Nisei Lounge. But, um, we used to call it Crest or Susie' ; s, but. AT: 00:50:07 On Sheffield? JK: 00:50:07 Was it Sheffield? AT: 00:50:08 Yeah, Nisei Lounge was on Sheffield. JK: 00:50:09 Okay. No, it was, it was further west, but not far. AT: 00:50:14 Okay that' ; s Racine. JK: 00:50:14 Is that Racine? AT: 00:50:14 Uhuh. JK: 00:50:14 And it was a diner though, run by an Issei woman and you could get rice with hamburger and gravy on it. But I always liked their hamburger with, on a toasted buttered bun. So we' ; d go there. And then later on in the late 60s, um, Kamehachi opened up and Kamehachi is a famous chain from Japan. But the woman Marianne Konishi decided that she was going to open up a sushi restaurant. Which growing up in the Midwest, I almost never ate. I didn' ; t eat sushi, cause we couldn' ; t get fresh fish here. And, and so I didn' ; t even know what, sushi was. To me, sushi was inari sushi or nori maki, not sashimi type sushi. So Marianne Konishi, who had been recently divorced, um, decided to import some Sushi chefs here. And her daughter, Angie, who' ; s a good friend of mine, um, and, and Marianne was a friend of my father' ; s cause he ended up insuring the place too. But Mari, uh, but Angie and her sister thought that her mother had lost her mind and that Angie and her sister were never going to go to college because her mother had just taken their college money to sink into this restaurant. And kind of how, she was located right across the street from Second City on Wells. And it did really well. And we used to go there for every birthday because they had yakitori, which was something else that was very unusual. We had, we were used to regular chicken teriyaki, but yakitori was something new. They had authentic Japanese food. We never did learn to like the uh sashimi, but it was okay, because we were five kids and it was too expensive anyway, so. So those were the main places who went to. Then later on, Matsuya Restaurant opened up in the Wrigleyville area f Clark Street, just south of Wrigley Field. Um, there was a time, there was a restaurant called Koto, which is now near, um, no, which is now the location of Renga Tei in Lincolnwood. Um, most recently there was the Sunshine Cafe, uh, on Clark Street. And then out in the suburbs there were a Teppanyaki restaurants, the Benihanas, um, the Ron of Japan. But we didn' ; t really go to them very often. I think in our case because of the five kids, it was a matter of cost, but I don' ; t know. Um, I do know we went once, to Ron of Japan, as a family and once to Benihana. And then of course Rocky Aoki, had kind of an unusual reputation I guess, too. AT: 00:52:57 Um, I just want to make sure we' ; re coming up on, on time. JK: 00:53:01 Sure. AT: 00:53:03 And um, just a few more questions. Uh, I wanted to, kind of take it back to, um, when you were describing your experiences kind of growing up, going through through the schools in Park Ridge. Um, I guess, could you just, um, also revisit some of the things that you saying and like kind of dreading December 7th, and things like that. How would you describe, um, your experiences growing up? You know, as a Sansei, as a Japanese American, however you identified in Park Ridge, at that time? JK: 00:53:45 Well, in, in elementary school, um, although I was scared to death, I remember that first grade I was, I was in third grade going to that school in Park Ridge. Um, but it was fine. The teacher was very welcoming. Um, I made friends, um, with a lot of different girls. In fact, her mother, she was blonde and I had black hair, and she used to call us the salt and pepper shakers and you know, birthday parties. Everything seemed very normal. And then, um, my mom, um, uh always made sure to introduce to my friends, um, Japanese culture too. I was very lucky. My Kaihatsu grandmother, uh, had a cousin who worked in a department store in Nagaya. And when I was born, she ordered a doll set for me the Heena Matsuiri doll, the complete doll set. It was probably $1,000 at the time or something. I can' ; t believe it. But we would put it up every Girl' ; s Day, on March 3rd. And then my mom said I could invite a couple of friends over for lunch and we would look at dolls. We didn' ; t have Japanese food. We had I think grilled cheese sandwiches and soup and cake. And then we would look at the dolls and that happened every year. Um, through middle school, I don' ; t recall being bullied. Just December 7th was touchy, again, not that anyone did anything, cept, a couple of boys would throw snowballs at me and say, you know, they wouldn' ; t say Jap go home or anything. Uh, one guy used to call me made in Japan, but it was kind of enough, a term of endearment. He' ; s actually still a friend of mine today from fifth grade, but I just felt that everybody was looking at me, when they ever mentioned Japan and in particular the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I just felt very uncomfortable. The war had only been over for 20 years. When I think about it in the 60s and 70s. Um, high school was not a problem. High school I was more, um, comfortable with myself and in fact, history teachers would let me take over the entire period and talk about the internment and I would show them pictures from the books, like Bill Hosakawa' ; s book and the American Concentration book, um, American Concentration Camp book is, that' ; s all, all we had. So that was not a problem. To be honest, I actually experienced more racial prejudice at the University of Illinois in Urbana because I was going to school with people from downstate Illinois, ah, who had never seen an Asian in person, in the flesh, before. And brought up a lot of prejudices. So I think that' ; s when I felt more, um, overt racism was at U of I. And to this day, I, I graduated from U of I in East Asian history, but I don' ; t have a lot of fond memories.You know, I' ; m not a huge alumni fan, things like that. It was, it was okay. It was a place to get a degree. AT: 00:56:54 So clearly a lot of, um, people from outside the Japanese American community, have really picked up on, this history given, you know, some of the you know contemporary issues. Uh, you know, the general political climate. Um, what, what are your, what are your hopes, for, for future generations, um, especially in regards to this history? Like what do you hope people to kind of take away or learning or, um, you know, what legacies do you hope people to understand from the incarceration, [inaudible] JK: 00:57:47 I think the most important thing is that, uh, when America, the population of the United States is a diverse country. Uh, is a diverse, diverse population, there' ; s all kinds of people from all different kinds of countries. And ways of thinking and different religion. And that the Japanese American population, at the time of Pearl Harbor, was easily targeted and it was very small and very voiceless. And I think that the, this, um, uh, the title of the exhibit at the Alphawood Gallery really struck me As They Came For Us. And I had never really thought about it that way, to be honest. But that' ; s exactly what happened was they were targeted, they were marginalized and had been for s, you know, sometime, but in one sense, who, if you' ; re not white, who hasn' ; t been marginalized. And even Italians and Irish, were marginalized. Um, but knowing that they were, ah Japanese Americans were targeted, marginalized and then, um, ignored by most of the mainstream. Of course, the American Friends Service Committee tried to speak up, they were too small. Once they were in camp, the Maryknoll, um, sect tried to be helpful. But, um, most people, um, didn' ; t speak up. The times were different. You didn' ; t challenge authority, but now, times, you should challenge authority and people have. And that' ; s what I hope that people, um, the legacy is that you cannot, when, when, when, uh, injustice is happening to a group of people, you cannot be silent cause this is the consequence. Now, of course, more people were born than died in the internment camps. But it was, it' ; s still a terrible stain, on the history of the United States and the hypocrisy for what we all stand for. And not to mention, I will be very blunt, economic loss. I mean, my grandparents had a grocery store, Kaihatsu family had homes, you know, many people had farms, lands that would be worth millions had they stayed, I mean, my, you know, my father' ; s neighbors on Santa Monica Boulevard today, if they still had that property in Northern California, if they still had that grocery store in downtown Berkeley. Oh my goodness, you know. So that economic loss was really never addressed. Yes, they received $20,000. But I had heard that at the time of the moratorium during the Vietnam War when protestors were arrested, um, without, cause they were awarded something like $40,000 in compensation for like two or three days of injust imprisonment. Whereas people like my mother spent entire three years in internment camp. So it' ; s, it' ; s costly to United States when we go against our principles. And in today' ; s climate, uh, it' ; s getting dangerously towards that way to people of color who don' ; t have loud voices and don' ; t have people advocating for them. Um, I think it' ; s unfortunate, if every single Japanese American did advocate for these marginalized minorities, it still might not do any good, but it' ; s good to see that exhibits like these, get exposed to other groups of people who may stand up for the others. Uh, I as a Japanese American people, um, I think that we are getting smaller and smaller in numbers. I do worry that the story will disappear, but as long as there' ; s ah people who like put together this exhibit, think about it and these pictures and artifacts, uh, continue to exist, I would hope that the story be told again and again. And, and the descendants of the internees too, though they may be getting fewer in number. I hope they, they still keep talking about it. I know I do. I, I was at the Women' ; s March and I made two giant posters of internment camp pictures. I said, never again. I just carried them around and got people talking about it and they said, yeah, that' ; s right. That was such an interesting march cause there were so many issues that were brought up that, um, had that were deeply upsetting to people. And I thought, I have to make sure I have to do my part that this issue is not going to be buried. That we will continue to talk about it. AT: 01:02:28 We are five minutes over an hour. JK: 01:02:31 Okay. AT: 01:02:31 Um, do you have time for one more JK: 01:02:35 Yes I do. Yeah, actually. AT: 01:02:37 Um, sorry, I' ; m just trying to cram. JK: 01:02:39 No, not at all. AT: 01:02:39 Everything in, all at the end. JK: 01:02:42 It went fast. AT: 01:02:45 Um, you have such a distinct recollection of the Japanese American community and, and a unique insight, just given how involved you were and your family was. JK: 01:02:59 Mhm. AT: 01:02:59 Um, I would love it if you could describe, um, you know, what the Japanese American community was like from your upbringing in the 60s and 70s in Chicago. Um, and then if you could describe how you see the Japanese American community today? JK: 01:03:22 Okay. From, from what I understand, like, um, from my church, Christ Church of Chicago started in 1948 and there was, there was a lot of fear among the, the Jap, relocated Japanese Americans themselves and there' ; s fear and suspicion on the mainstream society. And the FBI was watching people who are leaving church and people didn' ; t think much Japanese culture, didn' ; t want to know, and things like that. And so I think the community, um, this professor told me that kind of collapsed in on itself and was very tight. Um, and I think it goes back to what my mother said too why, you know, people didn' ; t like lose it all over the place because everybody had been in the same situation. And I think it' ; s part of the Japanese psyche all for one is we' ; re all going to lift each other up and you, whatever issues that you' ; re having, you' ; re just going to have to pull them aside. Cause we gotta get going here. We have to become Americans. We have Sansei coming along now and we are just gonna make it and we' ; re not going to cause trouble and we' ; re just going to get on with our lives. So I think with the Nisei, that' ; s exactly what they did. They didn' ; t want to talk about camp. Maybe some felt shame and anger and hurt, but I, I didn' ; t see it because I think my parents were of that ilk. there' ; s an expression in Japanese, I learned, called maemuki, which means face forward. And that' ; s what they did. You' ; re just gonna face forward and keep going. So we followed the Kaihatsu family, my personally, family followed the same trajectory as the rest of mainstream America. In the 50s and 60s. We bought, upward mobility. We bought a house in Park Ridge. Kids went to good schools. Um, and I think in the city as well, the greater Japanese community, was trying to do the same thing. Everybody got jobs, they worked hard, but they still wanted to main, um, maintain contact with each other. And I think, um, for the, for the Nisei it was because the social ties were still very closed to them. They weren' ; t as closed to me, but I know my, my mother, why didn' ; t she joined the Park Ridge junior league or something like that? I don' ; t think she felt comfortable, you know, that she still wanted to associate with her own kind. And that' ; s what they did. Particularly since she was Buddhist too. So we had friends at Midwest Buddhist Temple, which was the sect that she was from, even though we did a lot at, at BTC too. So, um, you know, we, we, you had the youth activities with the drum corps. You had the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association with all those sports teams and you understand there' ; s a thousand kids at one time participating in all these games, especially the Softball Diamonds at Grand Park. And uh, it was, it was growth. It was positive. The older Sansei came along in the late 60s, uh, probably influenced by their cousins on the West Coast with Yellow Power and ethnic identity, wanting to know more about Japanese culture, who we are, where we came from. Uh the Vietnam, I didn' ; t talk about the Vietnam War at all. Uh, I think that definitely had a divisive, um, aspect in the community. I know, um, it was very painful to look at pictures of the Vietnam War and see American, white American soldiers attacking and killing Asian people. You know, I know I felt terrible looking at them. My, um, older brother and my father had arguments about the war. My older brother Dan was just lucky enough that every time the lottery numbers came up, and they were printed in the newspaper, he pulled a very high number. He still had to report to the draft, but he wasn' ; t going to get, um, drafted because the number was too high. And my father had served and, and uh against this will actually, he said he didn' ; t really want to go, but he didn' ; t want to go to prison. So he felt my brother and one of my cousins who was an out now draft dodger, he went to Canada. Um, um, that they should serve. That was their duty. So, you know, I didn' ; t hear too much about the publicly, so I knew that if it was going on in my family, it had to be these kinds of arguments had to be going on in other families too. Um, between the Nisei, who you know, came from the highly decorated 442 and the Sansei who didn' ; t want to go, who were by and large went to college, and were anti-war protesters. There are, um, Sansei Vietnam vets. I saw them. I never talked to them. I kind of regret, some of them have passed away too. They must have had really interesting stories. Uh, and in the 70s, there were a lot of, there was the Obondori, odori, the Ginza holiday. There were the, all these events where you would see everybody and then you had church picnics. Um, the JASC had a picnic and the JACL had a picnic too. And those were mostly attended by the Nisei, but the Sansei kids came along too and ran the games. And it was a time to reconnect with everybody. Now, as the 80s came along and I myself moved away from Chicago for awhile. Um, there was more, uh, interracial marriage among the Sanseis. And Sansei did not return to the city, for example, where they had grown up, they went out to the suburbs. We were already in the suburbs, actually, I came into the city to Andersonville. I did the opposite, but by and large, the other Sanseis went to the suburbs and their kids went to school out there. So by the 80s, you start seeing fracturing and, and a dissipate, dilution, I guess. The events are still happening. The churches are still there, but they' ; re not as strong, anymore and if we fast forward to today, Christ Church there, everybody, I don' ; t think there' ; s a church or temple that' ; s really folded but we' ; re hanging on by our fingernails and there' ; s some doubt of well no, I guess there' ; s no doubt that it' ; s going to continue as a Japanese American entity. But whether these events will still happen, is probably in question and I think it, it makes people sad. It makes me a little bit sad. But at the same time, um, though when you look at the mechanics or what had happened to the community, it' ; s natural, how could it not become this way? Um, is that a legacy of the internment? Um, it could be by being, the Nisei pounding into us, you know, we have to succeed, we have to get along. We don' ; t make waves. And then racist mainstream society moved on to other groups and left the Japanese alone. You know, you know, so maybe that' ; s part of the problem too. If Japan had not been rehabilitated then maybe we would still be at a tighter community. If you look at the African American community, which in the eyes of the white mainstream has never been rehabilitated despite a Black president, you know, and you will still find enclaves. You know, in Atlanta for example. Maybe when I think back now from 1948 when people were terrified of sneaky Japs and today, so sushi is sold at Dodger Stadium. Everywhere you go you can get, sushi, bento. It' ; s really amazing how far the perception of Japanese has come. And that made me think about the Muslim community. If the Japanese community, of course it did take 75 years or so, um, can be rehabilitated and accepted and admired even among the mainstream society, wouldn' ; t that happen to the Muslim community. It' ; s just right now, we don' ; t, we' ; re afraid, people are afraid. They don' ; t know much about them. There' ; s not voices speaking for them. You know, I would hope so. I would like to think that America is that kind of community that because of what happened to our community, injustice, but rebirth and growth and acceptance, that it will happen to others who are marginalized too. That' ; s, that to me, I hope is the greatness of the America in the future that I would like to see for future generations. AT: 01:12:13 Oh, well thank you so much for coming. JK: 01:12:16 You' ; re welcome. AT: 01:12:16 And sharing. Um, before we wrap up, is there anything that you' ; d like to add or that I might have missed? JK: 01:12:24 Umm. Um, well I do have a detailed um, memory. I, I also was the chapter president of the Chicago Japanese American Citizen League. So that put me in a lot of contact with, with people. So I guess I was in kind of a, I was the youngest Sansei and first Sansei, a woman president, at the time, and I was the youngest uh at the time. I was 25 when I became the chapter president of JACL, 1982. AT: 01:13:00 And, and what, um, I mean, I apologize, cause, I, I have a lot more questions, but I know JK: 01:13:11 Oh, okay. No, it' ; s alright. AT: 01:13:12 Cause we' ; re short on time. JK: 01:13:12 Sure. AT: 01:13:12 Um JK: 01:13:15 I' ; m okay. AT: 01:13:15 But I guess, quickly before we wrapped up, um, what, since you brought up your position, what inspired you to to go for that position? JK: 01:13:26 Um, well, my father, Omar had been on the board. So that' ; s how I got in involved in, in JACL. And, um, nobody else would do it. I remember we came to that point, we are at a board meeting, so who' ; s going to be the president? Jane, why don' ; t you be the president. I don' ; t know how to be the president?! And he said, well, why don' ; t you be the? I don' ; t. We' ; ll support you. That' ; s what the Nisei said. And so I said, okay. I' ; ll be the president. And that again, kind of makes me an outlier about, uh, you know, being a typical Japanese American. Okay, fine, I' ; ll do it. You know, so, and they did the Nisei did support me here at the, at the local level. And when I went to, um, a national convention in Gardena later that year, everybody was stunned when they heard a Jane Kaihatsu, they thought I was a Nisei, woman. And they could not believe that a Sansei young woman was the president of Chicago. And I was not the first Sansei, however, but, um, and that' ; s a huge difference between the communities on the West Coast and in, you know, east of the Mississippi. They were willing to take that chance and it was a great opportunity. I have to thank them, you know, became a poised person. I got to meet the Mayor of Chicago, Jane Byrne at the time. I sat right next to her and cause our names were Jane and uh, she was, she' ; s was very intimidating, you know, cause she' ; s running this big city. But what a great opportunity. Um, and to work with different generations. Prior to that I had the Nisei were always, you know, are my parents' ; friends. But when I worked in, um, when I was president, JACL really gave me a unique chance to relate to them as adults and peers. And that made me grow up really fast. It was also, uh, an exciting time too, cause they had started the commission on wartime relocation and internment of civilians and they were holding hearings all over. And I was, I was the president. I was wasn' ; t really involved in setting up the hearings, but it was really fascinating to watch the Nisei and some of the older Sansei prep witnesses and get organized for it. It was a great learning experience for me to see that kind of process. AT: 01:15:49 So I guess what you' ; re saying is, we' ; ll have to get you back in for a whole other JK: 01:15:50 I forget. AT: 01:15:55 About those experiences. JK: 01:15:55 Uhuh AT: 01:15:58 Yeah, thank you so much. JK: 01:16:00 Oh, you' ; re quite welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KaihatsuJane20171027.xml KaihatsuJane20171027.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KaihatsuJane20171027.xml
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Kaihatsu, Jane (10/27/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Kaihatsu is a third generation Japanese American (Sansei), born and raised in the Chicago area. In this interview she shares what she knows of the immigration and incarceration experiences of her mother's and father's families and describes her own experiences growing up first in Chicago and then in the suburb of Park Ridge. Jane details the many community events and organizations she and her siblings participated in and shares memories of her father's efforts to screen Japanese movies for a Chicago audience. She describes the challenges of growing up in Park Ridge where there were few other Japanese Americans, and the feeling of being an outsider in the Japanese American community because of her suburban upbringing. She also recalls the experience of being the first sansei, first woman, and youngest person to serve as president of the Chicago chapter of the Japanese American Citizens League.
Date
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2017-10-27
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Doi, Mary
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kamidoi, Mary
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KamidoiMary20230331.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Rohwer
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL Detroit chapter
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
Northeastern Illinois University
CWRIC Hearings
Vincent Chin murder
Racism
Discrimination
Fear
Ford Motor Company
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/31/2023 Kamidoi, Mary (3/31/2023) 1:55:03 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Nisei Rohwer Japanese American Citizens League JACL Detroit chapter Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians Northeastern Illinois University CWRIC Hearings Vincent Chin murder Racism Discrimination Fear Ford Motor Company Kamidoi, Mary Doi, Mary video 1:|15(9)|36(10)|57(10)|75(5)|93(12)|116(6)|138(5)|166(12)|203(1)|221(6)|232(14)|245(7)|270(15)|291(9)|306(4)|321(13)|339(14)|356(1)|372(2)|388(1)|410(10)|428(10)|443(1)|453(15)|467(6)|481(17)|497(5)|508(5)|523(10)|546(16)|563(13)|577(6)|591(17)|603(9)|615(10)|635(4)|657(4)|670(7)|682(3)|694(5)|712(4)|723(9)|735(6)|745(15)|769(3)|809(8)|847(10)|861(8)|871(11)|883(14)|894(13)|906(3)|917(10)|929(15)|945(2)|958(8)|972(12)|989(7)|1003(6)|1014(14)|1026(1)|1051(14)|1065(3)|1076(12)|1090(7)|1101(8)|1112(6)|1125(1)|1140(4)|1149(8)|1160(11)|1177(6)|1189(7)|1205(8)|1221(14)|1231(7)|1242(11)|1255(5)|1266(9)|1280(5)|1292(2)|1305(12)|1320(9)|1331(3)|1346(17)|1359(2)|1379(4)|1390(17)|1411(14)|1424(2)|1443(16)|1462(2)|1480(2)|1505(6)|1518(3)|1532(3)|1548(6)|1579(7)|1592(8)|1605(2)|1617(10)|1630(3)|1650(8)|1664(1)|1676(15)|1689(10)|1710(9)|1723(12)|1736(2)|1750(11)|1768(7)|1781(7)|1794(14)|1816(10) 0 https://vimeo.com/824906189 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/824906189" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Mary Kamidoi, a nisei who resettled in Missouri and then Flint, MI after being released from incarceration, discusses her involvement with the Detroit chapter of the JACL from the 1950s to the present. A longtime employee of Ford Motor Company, she recounts numerous experiences of racism, discrimination, and anti-Japanese sentiment in Detroit, largely fueled by auto industry workers' loyalties to American car manufacturers in competition with Japanese manufacturers. She describes the response to the murder of Vincent Chin and the complex social and professional pressures that existed for Japanese Americans and Asian Americans at the time. She also provides details about the redress effort in Detroit and her experience attending the CWRIC hearings in Chicago. An outspoken person from early childhood, she describes many instances of fighting against injustice throughout her life. She shares clear memories of her mother's preparations for incarceration and reflects on the patterns of dispersal and assimilation that prevailed in Detroit during the resettlement era, acknowledging the consequences of this for younger generations who lack strong cultural ties. Mary Doi: Today' ; s date is March 31, 2023. This oral history is being recorded at the Hampton Inn in Canton, Michigan. The interviewer is Mary Doi. The interviewee is Mary Kamidoi. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American Redress Movement in Chicago and the Midwest. This interview will differ from a normal conversation in that I won' ; t use verbal cues and responses. Instead, I' ; ll use facial expressions to communicate my interest in what you' ; re saying. It makes for a cleaner transcript if I' ; m not going " ; uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" ; . You can decline to answer any question without giving a reason. We can take breaks whenever you need them. You can end the interview at any point. So, please make sure your cell phone is silenced, and we can begin. Okay? Mary Kamidoi: Okay. Mary Doi: All right. So I know that you moved to Detroit from the camps, that you relocated here? Mary Kamidoi: No, I moved from the camps to Missouri, first. Mary Doi: Okay, Missouri, but ended up here. Mary Kamidoi: And then to Flint, Michigan. Mary Doi: Yeah, okay. So I' ; m interested in your early involvement in redress. When did you first hear about the Redress Movement, and what was your reaction to it? Mary Kamidoi: Well, we heard about it in the Detroit chapter as soon as the attorneys got working on it. And so in the Detroit chapter, we had a general meeting and the president made a claim to all the members what was going on in redress. And at that time, they didn' ; t even know this was going on. And we let them know that, " ; Oh, this has been going on since the ' ; 70s." ; So you know, I said, " ; Right now, we think that they' ; re going to get to D.C. and something' ; s going to be accomplished because we have the support of some of the senators that we knew quite well." ; And so I said, " ; So, all of you will be hearing about it, and also you will be expected to fill out probably a lot of forms." ; Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Mary Kamidoi: So I said, so I mentioned this. I said, " ; So when you do fill out the forms, please make it as accurate as you can because the government has records of all of us. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Mary Kamidoi: You' ; d be surprised what kind of records they have on you." ; And so I said, " ; You don' ; t want to goof up your forms." ; Mary Doi: So let' ; s move back to the beginning and not, not more like, further down the road. So, why was the Redress Movement important to you? Mary Kamidoi: Well, because to begin with, I felt that it was just such a big injustice to us. And, and then also to think back when my mom and dad came here, they worked so hard in order to make a good living for the kids. And really, when we got on this, myself, I did say at the board meeting that " ; I' ; m not going after these people for my own self. I want to see my parents paid off. They deserve it, and they didn' ; t do anything you know, wrong." ; So I said, " ; That' ; s why I' ; m working on this as much as I can." ; Because I said, " ; I, you know, I have a job." ; But I said, " ; Anytime I have off, I will help on this." ; That' ; s how I got involved in it. Mary Doi: Yeah. And were you already involved in JACL Detroit at that time? Mary Kamidoi: Oh, yes. Since 1952, I' ; ve been a member on the board in every form and fashion, and I' ; m still doing it. (laughs) Mary Doi: Who were the other main JACL redress organizers in the Detroit area? Were there-- Yeah. Mary Kamidoi: Well, the older Niseis, they started the ball rolling trying to get all the members to take part in it and to let them know how important it was for their kids. So we sent out notices to our members and all. And you know, and when we had general meetings, we really stressed it to the Niseis that were here because they weren' ; t on the board. Some of them weren' ; t even members. And so that' ; s how the membership here in Detroit, they really went gung-ho. They wanted forms as soon as we can get them. And we' ; d laugh on the board, " ; Was that true? They don' ; t come out to help anything else, but hey, they' ; re rushing us now." ; Well that' ; s how-- Mary Doi: How about in the time between when the bill is entered, between the hearings in 1981 and 1988 when the bill is passed into law, what was it like in that time? Who were the leaders and were there Sanseis involved also? Mary Kamidoi: No, we didn' ; t have any sponsors because already-- Mary Doi: Sanseis, Sanseis. Mary Kamidoi: Oh Sanseis, no, because they were all young and also they were all in high school and all that, so we didn' ; t ask them to help us. But in case we had a big mailing, we might' ; ve asked them on a weekend, " ; Can you help?" ; But that wasn' ; t very often because my friend and I stayed up till 12:00, one o' ; clock doing it, but we didn' ; t mind. And so you know, it was really the board, board members and a few that could help for a couple of hours that worked on the redress. And so what our reaction was at the time, " ; Well, hopefully they' ; re going to think about the JACL board when they get their money." ; It didn' ; t work out, it didn' ; t work out that way. Mary Doi: Okay. Do you remember early conversations with the JACL Detroit chapter around the commission bill idea or other redress strategies? And by other redress strategies, I mean, things like Bill Hohri' ; s National Council for Japanese American Redress, that was the route that went to Supreme Court, or the National Coalition for Redress and Reparations, which was really the grassroots movement based primarily in California, specifically in L.A. This was more like the people' ; s effort. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah. Mary Doi: So did you, were you aware of those other strains of redress? Mary Kamidoi: You know, I' ; d never heard of it. I never heard of it. The only things that we got were from national-- Mary Doi: Okay. Mary Kamidoi: --what they were doing and what they expected us to do, and we didn' ; t know about all these organizations. Mary Doi: So I guess that the redress bill, as it is finally passed, has an apology and a financial token amount of money. Was there any controversy in the chapter about whether we should ask for money and the apology, or you know, was there any controversy about that? Mary Kamidoi: No, I didn' ; t hear any of the JACLers saying that. But when they did get the letters, everybody was calling each other and telling them that they got this letter, " ; Did you get it?" ; You know. And most generally, everybody in Detroit did get one. And the sad part of all this was, you know how every chapter' ; s got members that don' ; t come out, they don' ; t take part in anything. So you really don' ; t know they' ; re there. And I think after all these payments were made, these people got word of it, and our chapter had to say to them, " ; Where were you people?" ; Mary Doi: Yeah. Mary Kamidoi: " ; We' ; re sending all these notices out, we don' ; t know you' ; re here." ; Mary Doi: Yeah. Mary Kamidoi: So we did get a little bit of flack from these people. But you know, if you don' ; t know they' ; re here in Detroit, there' ; s nothing you can do to help them. Mary Doi: I' ; m going to take a little break to turn off the heater because I hear a fan. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah I hear something too, in the background. Mary Kamidoi: Well, we' ; re going to get a heat wave tomorrow, so we won' ; t have a heater going on. Every other day. Katherine Nagasawa: What' ; s the temperature going to get to? Mary Kamidoi: You know every other day we get a heat wave and the next day it' ; s snowing, raining. So that' ; s what' ; s going to happen tomorrow. Katherine Nagasawa: That sounds like Chicago. Mary Doi: Well, I hit the off. Katherine Nagasawa: It could be 70 one day and then snowing the next day. Mary Doi: Kat, I hit the off on the fan and I turned down the temperature to really low. So oo-- Katherine Nagasawa: I don' ; t hear anything on my end. Mary Doi: Okay. All right. That' ; s good. So I can hear it. I wear hearing aids. So if I can hear it, it' ; s bad or annoying to me. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah, I can hear that noise, but it-- Mary Doi: If you can' ; t hear it, Kat-- Mary Kamidoi: ...doesn' ; t bother me. Mary Doi: ...that' ; s okay. Katherine Nagasawa: Well, I can' ; t hear it through the Zoom. But I' ; m sure that in your audio recorder, you' ; re probably picking it up, right? Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Maybe it needs to wind down for a minute or something? Mary Doi: What was that? Katherine Nagasawa: Do you think it might need to wind down for a minute? Mary Doi: I don' ; t know. Katherine Nagasawa: --once you turn it off, it has to slowly turn off? Mary Doi: I don' ; t know. Oh, can you hear that, that? Mary Kamidoi: Oh, I can hear it, but I, I feel like the air conditioner might' ; ve gone on. Mary Doi: Yeah, I, I' ; m considering, I, I want-- What I don' ; t want is this rattle because that' ; s going to really be bad on the audio tape. Okay, let me just see what I can do. Can I stick a, can I stick a pillow on it? Mary Kamidoi: It' ; s unusual. Mary Doi: All right. I stuck a pillow on it. Katherine Nagasawa: Sounds good. Do you still hear anything right now? Mary Doi: No, it' ; s a lot better. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, amazing. Mary Doi: So one of the things we were just talking about is what, whether there was any controversy about having both an, an apology and a monetary amount in this redress effort. Was there any controversy about having hearings in you know, seven locations across the U.S.? Mary Kamidoi: About them getting the letters and all, we didn' ; t hear any of the members complaining because they got their check. That was amazing. The hearings, you know, we asked people if they were interested in going to the hearings. And you know, iving in this area, the people here were really leery of being out in the public because now all of this is coming out in the Free Press and the Detroit News. And Dr. Mayeda, he was the president, and he decided he would be the spokesperson for the chapter and the people here in Detroit, which was fine, but he was getting a lot of complaints at the University of Detroit. People were making remarks and the newspapers have this, pages and pages of comments, and they were all hateful comments. So you know the Japanese people sort of sat back you know, because they didn' ; t want to be too conspicuous out there because of all these hate emails. And everyone that wrote in didn' ; t think that we deserved it because the Indians didn' ; t get anything. They didn' ; t, they didn' ; t write in to the government, get anything. I was like, you don' ; t know that. Well, I heard-- I' ; ve heard it from an Indian friend that worked with me. They' ; re having a lawsuit going on in Michigan. I thought, " ; You don' ; t know that, but they' ; re going to go after the government." ; And then it just seemed like the public, they were so angry about it, and they took it out on all of us. And I was working at Ford at the time. I had all these hourly men come up and talk about, " ; Your people, this and your people..." ; And I said, " ; My people, what people are you talking about?" ; They didn' ; t know. So finally one elderly gentleman from the hourly department came, " ; You know that Jap, Japanese..." ; " ; Are you trying to say Japanese?" ; He said, " ; Yeah, something like that." ; And I said, " ; You pronounce it Japanese and don' ; t ever come to my office using Jap. This is my office. And if you don' ; t mind, would you step out of my office?" ; And the man did step out in the hall, and he said, " ; I don' ; t know why you' ; re getting so angry. You didn' ; t get laid off. You still got a nice office." ; I said, " ; Because I earned this." ; And on top of that, I said, " ; Why are you blaming my people? You don' ; t even know who I am." ; You know, from then on, I would always say to them, if they said, " ; So, what are you?" ; " ; I' ; m Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese." ; And lately, I' ; ve been using the term Hmongs, and they don' ; t know what the Hmongs are. Some of them said, " ; You mean among us?" ; I said, " ; You need to go back to school." ; And I said, " ; No, there' ; s a group of people here called Hmongs. They said, " ; I never heard of such thing." ; I said, " ; Well, I' ; m telling you, I know some of them." ; And so you know, oh and then they said, " ; Well, so, how did they get here? I never heard of them." ; I said, I' ; ll tell you one thing, " ; Don' ; t ever step on the Hmongs. They' ; re wards of the government." ; Mary Doi: So let' ; s go back to the ' ; 80s. And I can imagine-- Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s, that' ; s about then, when it was all happening. Mary Doi: Okay, so I also know that in Detroit, you had the Vincent Chin killing. Mary Kamidoi: Yes, yes. Mary Doi: That was in 1982. The hearings had happened in 1981 in, in Chicago. Mary Kamidoi: That was because of the, the Chrysler laying everybody off. Mary Doi: Right, right. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s why that happened. Mary Doi: So, do you think that Detroit, being an auto town was really primed to lash out at the Japanese Americans-- Mary Kamidoi: Yes, yes-- Mary Doi: --attempt to even gain, to even ask for redress? Mary Kamidoi: Yes, yes. Mary Doi: Yeah. Mary Kamidoi: I mean, there was so much hate at the time. And we finally said to Kaz, " ; Don' ; t go and do all these interviews. Do you know, we have to live with all those other community members?" ; And when we go shopping and all, I said, you know, I said, " ; People are getting insulted and everything. And because of all this, you know a lot of the JACL are just taking all this flack and just walking away." ; And this is how the term " ; the dumb foreigners" ; ... And so I said, you know, " ; You hear that phrase all the time. It' ; s because we don' ; t speak up." ; Of course, everybody said, " ; Well, I wouldn' ; t dare. You don' ; t know whether they' ; re going to shoot you or not." ; And I said, " ; Which is true, but you have the right to be here and you need to speak up and let them know I can speak English, because that' ; s why they call us the dumb foreigners." ; So they laughed at me and said, " ; Mary, we' ; re going to call you anytime we need help." ; I said, " ; I' ; d do that." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t feel I deserve to be taken and treated that way. I don' ; t feel that they have the right to do that to any Japanese. We didn' ; t cause the war--" ; Mary Doi: Right. Mary Kamidoi: " ; --and we' ; re not causing the buyers not to buy cars. It' ; s the plants. They' ; re charging too much." ; And so they said, " ; Well, Mary, so, what do you do when you work at Ford?" ; I said, " ; I fight my way through. And you can ask my bosses, they' ; ll tell you, I don' ; t take any of that guff." ; But I have one advantage. The person that recruited my sister and I was a head man at Ford. He came and took us out of business college without our certificates. And the school actually gave us our certificates because my sister and I said, " ; We want our certificates you know and get our degrees so we can' ; t take this." ; So our professor and the director of the school and everything, they said, " ; You' ; ll take it. This is an honor for our school. We' ; ve been here since we built it. We' ; ve never had anybody recruit our help." ; So we took it. Mary Doi: So going back to that time, I think you said you started at Ford around 1952-ish. What was it like to be a Japanese American working at an auto company in 1952? Mary Kamidoi: Well, I' ; ll tell you, we had so much discrimination, my sister and I. We were the first Japanese girls to be hired there. Nobody spoke to us. Nobody. And my sister had a boss that was so nasty to her. She cried every day at her desk. I didn' ; t work in the same department, but when you walk down the hall, you can look into any of the offices, the windows were low. I would see my sister wiping her eyes. When we got home, I' ; d rake her over the coals. She' ; d cry harder. And so you know it lasted for quite a while. And I had a man that followed me down the hall every time I left my desk. So finally, I thought in order to solve this problem, because I don' ; t want to continue working in these conditions, and I really didn' ; t want to see my sister sitting there crying. So I said to my sister going to work, I said, " ; Today, I' ; m going to solve our problem." ; She said, " ; What are you going to do, burn the place down?" ; I said, " ; No, I would' ; ve done that a long time ago." ; But anyway, I said, " ; I' ; m going in to the head man." ; She said, " ; You can' ; t go in that office. He' ; s a general manager." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t care if it' ; s Henry Ford. I' ; m going to go talk to him and ask him if this is their policy, I don' ; t want this job." ; And so she said, " ; Well..." ; you know she says, " ; You' ; ll probably get fired." ; And I said, " ; That' ; s okay. I' ; ll take the chance. Besides, the man that recruited us said, ' ; If we have a problem, call him.' ; " ; I said, " ; He can' ; t fire me." ; Mary Doi: So, you know I know that it was really hard at the beginning. Was, so when you go into the 1980s and there' ; s Vincent Chin, and then there' ; s the Redress Movement, how did that kind of discrimination compare to what you faced in 1952? Mary Kamidoi: It was almost the same except, I mean, none of us got killed, but they thought he was Japanese. Mary Doi: Right. Mary Kamidoi: And this is why I had to preach to the board, " ; We owe it to help Vincent Chin case. They mistook him for Japanese, and this wasn' ; t fair to him." ; And the poor kid had just gotten out of school, gotten a job, and so I pushed and pushed. That' ; s why, why Kaz said he would go and testify, and Maryann Mahaffey went and testified for us. And so a couple of us went to the trial. Mary Doi: Okay. Do you think it energized the Japanese American community to fight for redress maybe even harder because of the Vincent Chin anti-Asian hate that' ; s brewing in the ' ; 80s in Detroit? Mary Kamidoi: Well, you know, by then, by the time Vincent Chin case, most of the people had filled out their forms already. So they were, it was out of their home, their forms were already being processed. Because see, at that time, the government was really checking every form word for word. Mary Doi: So, I' ; m a little confused on chronology. So the Civil Liberties Act is passed in 1988, and Vincent Chin is killed in 1982. And so I guess the paperwork starts after the bill is passed, maybe in the late ' ; 80s, early ' ; 90s. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s right. Mary Doi: So I guess what I' ; m thinking about is that time between, say, after the hearings until the bill has passed, what was it like? You know was the, was the community activated to reach out to their congresspeople because- Mary Kamidoi: Oh, yes. We didn' ; t, no, not the Japanese community, just the ones that worked on the redress. We had our friends that were not Japanese trying to get names of everybody we can send letters to. And our president at the time was not Japanese. She went out of her way and she was able to get just lists and lists of names. She' ; s an attorney. And so she helped a lot. And also, this other Jewish fellow, he was you know, one of our members. He joined our JACL and he scrounged around and found all the names that he could find. And this is how we got the list of all the Michiganders that were in politics. And they' ; re the ones that really helped us out a lot. Mary Doi: Right. I think allyship is so important you know that things that maybe our community can' ; t do, our allies can help us do or do for us. And so I think that that' ; s an unexpected coalitions kind of form. Mary Kamidoi: It was. Mary Doi: You know, so you mentioned, you mentioned a little bit about the Chicago hearings, and we have a list of people that went to testify, and these are in the public record. So they were: Kaz Mayeda, Reverend Jitsuo Morikawa, Kazutoshi Mayeda. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s the same person as Kaz Mayeda. Mary Doi: Oh okay, so the same. Roy Seitsuda and Minoro-- Minoru Mochizuki, do you know how they were selected to go and testify? Mary Kamidoi: Well, you know, when this all started, these people were active in our organization. And so we asked people if they would like to go to Chicago and testify in this. Well, most of the people hesitated. I wouldn' ; t have gone up there because I was already employed by Ford. I might' ; ve lost my job. I don' ; t know. And so I never volunteered, but I knew I was going to go to the hearing with my other friends. So these people volunteered. And Morikawa and Minoru Mochizuki, they were in the religious sect, you know. Well, Morikawa has got Reverend, but Mochizuki was also in the church you know. Mary Doi: In the Christian Church? Mary Kamidoi: I don' ; t know what denomination it would be. Mary Doi: But not Buddhist? Mary Kamidoi: It was in Ann Arbor. Yeah. No, not Buddhist. No. Mary Doi: Okay. And do you remember, was there a concerted like organization of people from Detroit that went to the Chicago hearings? Mary Kamidoi: No. Among the Japanese, I think there were just a handful of us that went. Mary Doi: Okay. Mary Kamidoi: And you know, we asked people, you know, " ; Would you go?" ; Because I said, you know, " ; There' ; s a little strength in numbers." ; " ; Are you kidding?" ; That, you know people in Detroit were so afraid, and I can understand them being afraid because of what was going on you know all the time. I saw this and I was involved in the hourly people and all, so I didn' ; t blame them. But you know, I' ; m the kind of person, don' ; t push me too far because you' ; re going to be surprised what I' ; m going to do. And that' ; s why I was so active in all this and the Vincent Chin because Japanese people were really afraid to go out too much after the Vincent Chin killing. And you know and I always said you know, " ; I feel bad for Mrs. Chin and all that. That was a terrible way of dying." ; And I said, " ; But you know what? We have to get together because he was mistaken for Japanese." ; But even that didn' ; t faze people. They thought, " ; No, we' ; re not going to go out there." ; Mary Doi: So actually by going out, you mean leaving their houses? Were people afraid to leave their house or... Mary Kamidoi: Well, they went to the grocery stores and whatever they had to do, but they wouldn' ; t mingle out in a... You know, to show you what it was really like, I have a friend and he was with his girlfriend, maybe they might' ; ve been engaged or something at the time. They were driving a Honda now, and Honda is a popular car here, even if you' ; re in the auto company. And so people weren' ; t killing anybody that drove Hondas whatever. Well, they were driving down Telegraph Road, which is one of the biggest main roads here, and a group of Black fellows were in a car, three men. They kept pushing him off the Telegraph. His girl, his girlfriend was so scared. She said, you know, she said, " ; I' ; m so scared." ; She said, " ; Step on it." ; Well, you can only step on a economical car so far, you know, it' ; s still fast. And that' ; s what he did. But he lucked out because his uncle had a job working for a tire company that fix tires on big semis, 18 wheelers and things, and so he had this huge tire iron. He had, he was able to get one. So because of the air being as bad as it was, he even asked me if I wanted one. I said, " ; What am I supposed to do with it knock you over the head?" ; He said, " ; No, you' ; re out all the time, Mary." ; And I said, " ; No, no, no, I have a tire iron in my trunk." ; He said, " ; Yeah, but you need one of these." ; And I said, " ; No, I don' ; t want one." ; And so his, and this was his grandson, and he took one. He told him to take it. Luckily, he did. He had it under the car seat. And when they kept pushing him, pushing him off the road, he pulled over to the side, and he got out, and he grabbed this big tire iron, and he came out. That' ; s what saved him. Now you know, when you have to drive and be under fear like that, it' ; s, it' ; s really scary. And I always said, " ; Anybody jumped out in front of me, I will mow them down before I even ask them questions." ; And so my friend says, " ; Yeah, but you be convicted of murder, Mary." ; I said, " ; Well, I' ; ll have to take that chance." ; I said, " ; Why would I let them take my life like they took Vincent Chin' ; s? The poor guy was outnumbered, and his two friends that were with him just ran off. They were so scared." ; And I said, " ; No." ; I said, " ; I have made up my mind. If I have somebody that' ; s trying to kill me or make me stop the car or something," ; I said, " ; I will do what I have to do." ; And, I mean-- Mary Doi: And ' ; cause this story is so different from the stories that we hear in Chicago, or I' ; m sure in Cleveland and other places in Ohio, that Detroit seems to have a very unique story because of the strength of the auto industry, and because of the impact that so-called Japanese cars were having on the auto industry in the ' ; 80s. And, and that sense of fear is something that I' ; ve never heard articulated before. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah, it is, because you know, my sister has always bought a Toyota. And I said, " ; Joyce, I guess you don' ; t want to live very long. Why are you driving a Toyota?" ; She said, " ; Because they have the best cars, Mary, and all the other cars that I' ; ve had were in the garage." ; So she said, " ; I' ; m buying Toyotas." ; You know, she' ; s had her time on the road. She didn' ; t come right out and tell me and my parents or anything, but her daughter told me one day and she said, " ; Don' ; t tell Mom. She' ; ll have a fit I told you. She' ; s been on the road and people have tried to push off the road." ; Or she' ; d get out of the car and they' ; d tell her, " ; Hey, you know, us Americans don' ; t drive Jap cars." ; She said, " ; I just ignore them and walked away." ; And I said, " ; One day, you' ; re not going to be able to walk away. You' ; re going to get involved with somebody like the guys that killed Vincent Chin." ; And she-- Mary Doi: So let' ; s bring it back to the hearings. And you mentioned that you were one of the people that went to the hearings. Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like to be in Chicago in those hearings? And I, did you stay more than one day? Mary Kamidoi: Yes, we had to stay overnight. But my friends and I, we were really upset because there were a few people that were there that talked about, as a kid, they were really young at the time, and they went into camp and they sat there being interviewed and said, " ; Oh, well, you know, I guess I didn' ; t mind it because we had fun." ; That' ; s all I had to hear. And I said, " ; What do you mean, you had fun? You don' ; t stand up there and say we had fun when here we' ; re fighting this redress." ; And, so you know, and they were not Detroiters, because Kaz said, " ; If they' ; re Detroiters, Mary, they' ; re going to hear about it." ; And so you know, Kaz himself did not express himself like he did in the Free Press and the Detroit News. When he sat up there, he did mention the fact that he was about 11 or 12 when he went into camp. And he said, " ; When I was there," ; he said, you know he said, " ; My, the friends on the block, we played a lot." ; And I said, " ; Here, we' ; re trying to tell the tale of what we went through and what we shouldn' ; t have had to go through and what our losses were. And Kaz, you' ; re sitting up there saying, ' ; Hey, I had a lot of fun with my buddies that I met in camp.' ; " ; And yet, when he had to get up and give a speech, he broke down and cried. That' ; s how it affected him. Mary Doi: In the hearings when he spoke, is that when he broke down and cried? Mary Kamidoi: No, when he was teaching. He' ; s a, he was a professor at Wayne State. So whenever I would go out to speak, I, I didn' ; t want to be the only one, and I didn' ; t want people to think that I was hoarding this job you know, because I wasn' ; t. No one would go. And so I thought, you know, " ; People need to hear what we went through and I' ; ll do it if, if nobody else wants to do it." ; So I had taken Kaz and another gentleman to one of the speaking engagements, which were all professors from Wayne State. And when he started to introduce himself, he broke down and cried. So the other fellow got him, and when he started, he told his name and everything and told about you know about his parents, how they had to scrounge around and get whatever they can carry. He broke down. So I said, " ; Well, I guess, Mary, you got to go up there and finish the story." ; So I went up there. But you know both of those men shocked me, especially Mayeda. He was a Wayne State University professor. I thought, I would think you would' ; ve been stronger than that. And on top of that, for you to be at the hearings and say right in public and everybody' ; s listening to you " ; As a kid," ; you know, he said, " ; I was put in camp and I had fun with the other kids that I met." ; And so people are going to say, " ; Well, hey, if you have friends in camp? What are you complaining about?" ; But that' ; s not the point. Mary Doi: Well, and it doesn' ; t say anything about what his parents went through or his grandparents went through. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s right, that' ; s right. Mary Doi: But I also think that the listener is as important. Who are you speaking to, could evoke certain kinds of emotion. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s right. Mary Doi: And so he' ; s speaking to his peers at Wayne State in a way where he' ; s like really exposing himself, really being vulnerable with his colleagues. Mary Kamidoi: Right. Mary Doi: So I can, I can empathize ' ; cause I would probably have done the same thing. Mary Kamidoi: Because you know, with him, because he was a professor, I think it sort of went to his head. So he wouldn' ; t tell the real stories of what the parents and him went through. And this is one thing that when friends and I got back, we used to see him quite often, and we do had to rake him up with a coal a lot. We said, " ; Why did you do that?" ; And he said, " ; Well," ; he said, you know, he said, " ; you get up there," ; and he said, " ; you don' ; t want the whole world to know that you got, you were a poor kid." ; I said, " ; Kaz, what' ; s wrong with it?" ; Every Issei that came here, they suffered working so hard and every Issei didn' ; t have the money to give all, everything the kids wanted. That' ; s not anything to be ashamed of." ; Mary Doi: Right. Mary Kamidoi: But he said, well, he was simply because he had the title in front of him and he didn' ; t want the teachers, professors at this-- he probably didn' ; t want them to know that his family was very poor at the time. Mary Doi: So getting back to actually being in the room where the hearings are happening, I' ; m, I' ; m really curious about what memories stand out, whether what you heard or what you saw or what you felt. Can you paint the picture of what it was like for you to be in that room at Northeastern Illinois University? Mary Kamidoi: Well, I' ; ll tell you everything I heard. I thought to myself, well, you know, everybody' ; s sitting up there saying you know, they were ashamed when they came out of camp and all. And see, I don' ; t buy that. It happened to us. You have to go on living and you don' ; t have the reason to be ashamed. Because when people came to Detroit and the Midwest area, you know they struggled to get on their feet. And I am sure in Cleveland, Chicago and everywhere, they lived in the ghettos. They had to. Because when the banks closed down the checks-- the bank accounts in California for Japanese people, they went to camp with nothing. And if you worked in camp, the most you could make was $16 a month. And that would be like a doctor or somebody. So you know, I mean, what, what do you do with $16 a month? My mom worked at a kitchen. She made $12 a month. And if you worked at the offices at the ad building, depending on what your job was, you might' ; ve made $14. So when they came out of camp in Detroit, these people live probably next to poverty. Mary Doi: So do you think the shame was about the economic situation? Or do you think the shame might also have included feeling ashamed that they had been imprisoned without knowing why? You know is there, is there different ways to think about shame? Mary Kamidoi: I don' ; t think that shamed them. They were mad. And it was like, I was a kid when it went in, but I was mad and I still get upset over what happened. But it was a shame of how they had to live here. In Detroit, there' ; s a place named Cass and Canfield. It' ; s a long street, apartment house after apartment house. And these Isseis had to move in with their children because now they were too old to get jobs. And these kids, the young Niseis, they had to live with a couple families in an apartment. At that time, there was no ruling on how many could live in an apartment. And I know this because when my mom and dad joined the Buddhist church here, my brother used to drive them every week to attend their church. And they had a large farm up north. And when they came to church and they listened to the Isseis talking and they feel so bad because they can' ; t offer their children more. They just feel so terrible. They never talked about it. And so my mom and dad would say to me, " ; You know, we were sitting there eating and we felt so sorry for them. Next time you come home, Mary, we want you to take all the kinds of vegetables we grow and deliver to them." ; I said, " ; Mom, I work." ; She said, " ; Well, you can do it after work." ; Are you sure? And I said to her, " ; Is that why you guys bought me the car?" ; Because they bought me a car. That was the reason. So anyway, I did that. And you know, the Isseis, when I take it to the door and tell them you know, my mom and dad sent this, and they would be so gracious. The women would bow and bow and bow. Tears would roll down their eyes. And I used to tell my mother, " ; Don' ; t ask me to do anything ' ; bout it, Mrs. so-and-so started crying on me." ; She said, " ; Well, of course," ; she says, " ; they would because they' ; re just living day to day." ; And I said, " ; Well, okay, well I live day to day too. I' ; m working." ; But so this is why they' ; re ashamed. And some of my friends told me, " ; We don' ; t want to burden our children with the life that we had when we were young. That' ; s why the Niseis here would try to do everything for the kids, give them everything they wanted. And then now the Sanseis are doing the same thing for the children, but living conditions today are a little different for the Sanseis because the Isseis and the Niseis you know helped them out so well that they' ; re not out there you know, struggling. So it' ; s a different story with the Sanseis. Mary Doi: Right. Well, let' ; s go back into this redress story. And I think now we' ; ll move into the lobbying for the Civil Liberties Act in the 1980s-- Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, do you mind if I just chime in with a quick question? Mary Doi: Sure. Katherine Nagasawa: I was wondering, so for the people who testified from Michigan, do you remember their process of drafting their testimonies? Like, did they practice them like Jitsuo Morikawa or Kaz? Do you remember them talking about what they were going to say? Or did they do that privately? Mary Kamidoi: No, I don' ; t think they told them when they were, when they offered to be a witness. I think when they went there, I think from hearing the first people that were speaking, I think they mentioned it, " ; This is what we' ; d like to hear." ; They didn' ; t get a copy of anything first, ' ; cause Kaz would' ; ve told us ' ; cause he was a good friend of mine, he would' ; ve told me. But he didn' ; t say anything about getting a list like this you know to speak on. So when they got there, of course you know a trial like that, they' ; re going to call you and have a meeting to tell you what' ; s going to happen and all that. And so Kaz said that' ; s when they put us through all of this what we' ; re going to talk about. Mary Doi: Was that in Chicago or is that in Detroit? Mary Kamidoi: In Chicago. See, we didn' ; t have a hearing here in Detroit. Mary Doi: No, I know. But I thought, we were I guess wondering whether there was preparation before they got to Chicago. Mary Kamidoi: No. No. Mary Doi: Okay. So is there-- Katherine Nagasawa: I was also wondering, do you remember any conversations with any of the witnesses after the hearings? Like what did they say about the experience of testifying? Anything that stands out to you from, from any of them? Mary Kamidoi: You know, I remember Kaz. He did not say anything right after the trial, but when we all got back and the trial was over, when we had a board meeting, he did report what did happen at the... And so a couple of the board members asked, " ; How come you didn' ; t tell us when we were in Chicago? Maybe we would' ; ve had some flack you know to tell the judge or this and that." ; He said, " ; Well, maybe this is what they were afraid of. They did instruct us, ' ; While you' ; re in, tenants of this building, please refrain from talking about the trial.' ; " ; So that' ; s why he said he didn' ; t tell us anything. And when he had the meeting... He called a meeting so he could inform all of us and the people that weren' ; t there, what took place and how you know, it came out. And he did mention that the judge had said that while you' ; re in the premises here, not to talk about it, and when you get back home, you can talk about it all you want to. And I think probably they were afraid what the reaction would be from the non-Japanese members in the court. I think that was the problem because we asked Kaz, we said " ; Why couldn' ; t you speak?" ; He said, " ; I' ; m not going to fight the judge." ; He said, " ; That' ; s his ruling." ; So, he said he didn' ; t say anything. And so when he got back, he said, I think we should call a general meeting and let the members know because you know, it' ; s important to them just as important to us. And so that' ; s what he did. And at that time, our membership was huge. And so many of the members showed up. And of course you know, some of them, no matter what you do, you' ; re going to hear complaints. So these diehards do complaint over everything and I didn' ; t, I could point them out to you. And so I just said to my friends, " ; I guess you can' ; t please everybody all the time." ; And so you know, we accepted their complaints, but we did have a few answers for them also. You know, if this is how you felt, you should have offered to be up there. You can' ; t expect everybody to do your job for you. And of course some members are still, you know, they' ; re so angry because they were probably people that said, " ; No, no." ; And they were in Tule Lake. And so you know, even today you' ; ll run into people like that. They won' ; t even join the JACL. They' ; re still holding that against the government and Detroit JACL. When they don' ; t join, I' ; ll ask, " ; Why don' ; t you join? You don' ; t, you' ; ll never know the Japanese community if you don' ; t join." ; I' ; m not saying that we' ; re so active, but when we do have a program, please come out. And then some of them have said, " ; We don' ; t know a soul there, Mary." ; I said, " ; Well, you know me, and as long as you know me, you don' ; t need anybody else." ; And my sister said, " ; Mary, will you be quiet?" ; And I said, " ; Well, same thing for you. If you know me, you don' ; t need any sisters and brothers." ; But anyway, I said-- Mary Doi: So did any of the other witnesses like Jitsuo Morikawa or R-Roy or Minoru, did they talk about what it was like to give testimony at these hearings? Mary Kamidoi: No. Katherine Nagasawa: At like the Chicago hearings, not the Vincent Chin case, but the Chicago redress hearings, do you remember them talking to you about what it was like to testify? Mary Kamidoi: Well, no, not so much. Now Kaz did, because he was our board member chairman, and we knew him real well. But with Morikawa and Mochizuki you know when, I think because they were connected with churches, I think they have to be careful what they say. And for that reasons they were very quiet about it. They decided that, you know okay, you know, when we get our checks, we can appreciate it because you know, it could turn out that we' ; re not getting a dime. And they always spoke in the language of a layman, " ; Don' ; t do this, don' ; t do that." ; And you know, all this religious stuff. And so really none of us really questioned him. And this fellow, Seitsuda, he never came out to any of our functions. We knew about him and he would be invited just like everybody else would be invited to our installations and all ' ; cause our, our chapter had big installation and everybody from Chicago used to come, all the Niseis, the old ones. And so you know, he just sort of kept himself. And I don' ; t know whether it was because he was angry about it, but you know, my friend and I said, you know he' ; s sort of different. He just keeps himself, he doesn' ; t even talk to us and he' ; s in the jury cell. And I said, oh, don' ; t worry about it. I said, you and I talk to each other, that' ; s all we need you know. But we didn' ; t let people that were angry about the whole thing, evacuation and the redress if they didn' ; t get what they asked for because you know, originally it was 25,000 and Reagan caught... And I' ; ve said to people, I said you know, " ; That' ; s better than nothing. But you know the young attorneys did go after another fund." ; And I said, " ; So what we didn' ; t get, they went after the educational fund." ; Which is just as important to teach this, all of this in the schools, and that' ; s what the money' ; s going to be used for. And also, I talked to one of the national directors and I said, they said they were going to go and get after all the schools for not publishing enough about evacuation in the books. And they didn' ; t have them. I, I checked the books in the library. There was about that much, and it left me looking at us. So what happened? That was what was published and the national did use the education funds to talk to different schools throughout the United States. And you know, we appreciated that because if we can just get a page of it in the books, we said we' ; ll be happy. And we all knew that the history books didn' ; t have, but just a few lines. And so I said, well now you can get a lot of information on these history books because when I go speak to the schools, they' ; ll ask me things that are printed in the book that they didn' ; t quite understand, so I would explain it to them. And you know, so many of these middle school, eighth, ninth graders would say to me, " ; Are you mad at the government?" ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m not." ; " ; Well you should be after what they did to you and your parents." ; And I said, " ; Well, you know, our parents--" ; I said, " ; We have a different type of culture." ; And I said, " ; They don' ; t stay angry at something that' ; s already done. They teach all of us kids to accept it." ; So I said, " ; I accept what happened to us." ; But I said, " ; I don' ; t like it," ; but I said, " ; there' ; s nothing I can do about it, so I don' ; t hate you kids at all and they look at me and they laugh. " ; We, we really like you. Will you come back next year?" ; And I said, " ; Yeah, I' ; ll be back." ; (laughs) Mary Doi: Well, that' ; s great. Let' ; s go into more the lobbying for the Civil Liberties Act in the 1980s, and what were the biggest challenges during the 1980s lobbying for redress bill? Say, what' ; s the biggest challenges that you might' ; ve had in Detroit? Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, one thing that keeps happening is I think one of your phones is like pinging or something. Mary Doi: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: You think you could turn your phone onto silent? Is your phone on silent or is it coming through your laptop? Mary Doi: Well, I think it' ; s coming through my phone, but I don' ; t know how to do that and have the memo going. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, okay. ' ; Cause I think on the side button you can turn it so that you could see orange on the side. Could you try doing that? So from, on the left side. Mary Doi: You mean the, sort of like the volume control buttons? Katherine Nagasawa: No, it' ; s on the left. Mary Doi: Of my phone? Katherine Nagasawa: Above it. There' ; s a silver button. Looks like this. Mary Doi: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: So there, see how this is my volume up and down here? Mary Doi: Okay, let me, let-- I have mine in a case. So let me just see your phone. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, so here' ; s the left side, right? This is up and down. Mary Doi: Yeah-- Katherine Nagasawa: But above that there' ; s a little switch. Mary Doi: Oh. Katherine Nagasawa: You switch it to the left so that you can see a little orange bar. Do you see that? Mary Doi: Okay, let me try that. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, ' ; cause then I think it won' ; t notify you when you get a text or something. Mary Doi: Oh, okay. I see a little... So here' ; s my phone and I see that little orange thing, or I see a little... my, my phone-- Katherine Nagasawa: So you switched it to the left? Mary Doi: I will move it to the other position. I moved it from wherever it was to the other position. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you put it up higher? I, it should be on the other side. The orange means it would be silent. Mary Doi: What' ; s orange? Kat, Kat, what is orange? Is it the, something on the screen? Is it... Katherine Nagasawa: No, no, it' ; s on the button. But on the button, it should just be on the left side. On the left side, if you' ; re looking at it, the switch. Mary Doi: Yeah, I see it above. I see... So I' ; ve got the left side has the volume control of my phone, right? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. And so the top button-- Mary Doi: Then above the volume. Katherine Nagasawa: So you know how it can go from one side to the other side when you move it? Mary Doi: Yes. So I moved it opposite from-- Katherine Nagasawa: Move it to the left. Mary Doi: I moved it opposite from where it is... from where it was. And-- Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Mary Doi: Do you want me to-- Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, let' ; s try that then. Mary Doi: Okay. Okay. Sorry. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, because then if it was pinging before, then maybe it would stop now. Mary Doi: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. All right. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead, Mary. Mary Doi: So we' ; re going to talk a little bit about the challenges of lobbying for the bill in the 1980s. Mary Kamidoi: Well, you know actually we didn' ; t get out there physically to lobby. We did a lot of mailing to everybody that would be interested or didn' ; t know anything about it. And I said, " ; Where are we getting all these names? There' ; s no end to it." ; And Dave, the Jewish fellow, said, " ; We have to mail it to everybody that we can get an address, Mary. The public has to wake up to what happened to you people." ; And he was Jewish. And so I said, " ; Well, that' ; s okay, but hey, let' ; s get moving here." ; And he' ; d always be having coffee. And I said, " ; Let' ; s get moving here." ; But we, that was what we did. We didn' ; t lobby or anything. You know, I think when you live in a city like Detroit or a state like Detroit, there' ; s so many things that you don' ; t dare get out there to do. It' ; s like the Vincent Chin case. We had you know, all these people marching, and one of my good friends, he worked at Ford as an engineer, he kept warning me, " ; Mary, don' ; t get out there too often. Your job is on the line." ; And I said, " ; I know." ; And he said, " ; And also this is why I' ; m backing off." ; Like with the Vincent Chin case, he backed off out of the board. And he told his son also, " ; Don' ; t get too active." ; But right now Roland is the president ' ; cause nobody will take it, so he' ; s had it for a while. But he even asked his son, " ; Don' ; t get out there too often." ; Because the gentleman that was the attorney for Vincent Chin case here in Detroit, he started to get so many threatening letters and threatening phone calls, and his mother had to tell him, " ; Stop. You know, what are you going to do if you' ; re out there and somebody goes after you with a bat? What are you going to do? Don' ; t make much more waves." ; But he was involved so thick that he kept it up. Then when his wife got after him, he just sort of backed off a little bit because he knew that would eventually happen. So for that reason, we really didn' ; t make a lot of noise on any of the programs that we had here, you know, defending ourselves or fighting for ourselves. And even today, a lot of the Niseis, well, there aren' ; t that many left yet, but the ones that are left, they' ; re still hesitant of being out where there' ; s a lot of people and they' ; re lobbying or they' ; re striking or something. So I said for that reason, as, as busy as I was with Vincent Chin case, I was acting director for a while because I said, " ; I don' ; t want the director job. I have to go to work." ; So I said, " ; I' ; ll do the acting director and I' ; ll work there after my work." ; And so even myself, I thought to myself, okay, I' ; ll do whatever I can in the office, but I am not marching. And if I do, I' ; m going to be behind so many people that are taller than me. I don' ; t want my face on the TV because I said, " ; I work at Ford." ; So they all understood my position and they didn' ; t push for me to get out there to do anything out in the open where people will see who I am. And our attorney did say, " ; Mary, I would hate to see the day when you start getting threatening letters, so don' ; t do it." ; And I didn' ; t do it. So you know, I felt bad for not supporting you know, the group that were out there marching, but I thought, " ; No, I have a job and I have to work." ; And so for that reason, I never got right out there where I' ; d be on the TVs and all. I avoided the TVs when I saw them coming around. And I made it plain to the Chinese community. It' ; s not that I' ; m afraid to do it, it' ; s because I work at Ford Montgomery. You have to understand my position. I go to work every day there. And I said, " ; I put up with all this nasty remarks from the hourly people. I take the blame for it." ; But I said, " ; I' ; m not going out there to march. Not Woodward Avenue. That' ; s a big avenue." ; And I said, " ; I can' ; t afford to do that." ; But this other gentleman that kept telling me to be careful, " ; Don' ; t get out there, Mary, and show your face all over because it' ; s dangerous." ; And he did back, back off and he, he didn' ; t come to meetings or anything anymore, and I didn' ; t blame him. He had a lot of seniority at Ford and he was an engineer. And you know, they could have mistaken him for Japanese too. He was Chinese. But, but he warned me all the time, " ; Mary, be careful. Be careful." ; And I said, " ; I am." ; So you know, I guess, in a sense, I mean maybe the men didn' ; t care about the women. They didn' ; t bother me outside of you know, my job, but I would run into people in grocery stores and all. And I' ; ll tell you one incident that strikes me funny every time I answer. I see, see this old video of a lady. Our office first was in Oak Park area. That' ; s strictly Jewish country. So I went just to buy a little jar of mayonnaise before I left the work at the office that night you know. And I thought, well, I don' ; t have mayonnaise, I' ; m going to stop at this Jewish store. So I did. And this lady kept looking at me like this as I' ; m walking up the looking for the mayonnaise. I thought, " ; Well who is this lady? I don' ; t know her." ; So we get up to the cashier and she was in front of me, I mean ahead of me. She got up there and we' ; re standing at the cash register. She said, " ; Do you know what? I thought we got rid of all those people." ; And she' ; s looking at me and I, I noticed it. So I said to her, " ; Do you know what? Isn' ; t that the truth? I thought they got rid of all those people too, but I guess we' ; re mistaken." ; And the cashier was a young girl. She looked at me and she got all red-faced. And the lady just looked at me and she just grabbed her bag and took off. And the cashier apologized to me. She said, " ; You know, she' ; s just an old biddy. She comes in here every day for one item. She just drives me crazy. She always comes out with remarks like that." ; And I said to her, " ; You know what? I' ; m really sorry if I embarrassed you," ; but I said, " ; I' ; ve learned a lesson. When people talk down to me standing right next to them, I' ; m ready with an answer." ; She said, " ; Well, I' ; m so glad you came out with that answer." ; ' ; Cause she said, you know, " ; I don' ; t know how you think so fast." ; I said, " ; Well, when you run into problems like this off and on, you' ; re ready." ; And I said, " ; Today I was ready for that old biddy." ; And, and I said, " ; Probably," ; I said, " ; something that happened to me. She' ; s an elderly lady and I talk so bad to her." ; She said, " ; Don' ; t worry about it." ; And I said, " ; Well, I' ; m not going to lose any sleep over her." ; but I said, " ; We run into this all the time, believe me." ; So even now, when people stand next to me and make remarks, I got an answer going back. And they looked at me and they' ; re so embarrassed they walk away. And I thought, " ; Well, you ask for it, you got it." ; Because I don' ; t feel that any of us should have to put up with people talking down to us. I don' ; t feel that they have the right to talk down to me. I' ; m just as American as they are. And I, I would treat them with respect. I just want them to treat me with respect. Don' ; t call me names and everything. But now I pass it on that I' ; m a Hmong. They don' ; t even know what a Hmong is, but-- Mary Doi: I think you' ; ve done a great job of painting the picture of maybe the racism that you felt as an, somebody that worked at for Ford as well as just being a Japanese American during the eighties when redress is going on, when Vincent Chin trial is going on-- Mary Kamidoi: You know, I have a friend, Scott. He was an engineer at Ford' ; s, and he was turning into an alcoholic at home. And his wife called me up. She says, " ; Mary, this is Barb." ; And I said, " ; Hi Barb, how are you doing? How' ; s Scott doing?" ; She said, " ; That' ; s what I' ; m calling about. You know he works in Dearborn as an engineer. He comes home every day. He doesn' ; t want to eat. He just hits the bar." ; And I said, " ; I noticed that when I go and visit you guys. First thing he asks is, ' ; Mary, you want a drink?' ; " ; She said, " ; Well, that' ; s what he' ; s doing. He' ; s becoming an alcoholic. I' ; ve hidden bottles of whiskey." ; He had a bit of a bar and she took those out and hid them. He went out and bought more. And finally, one day, Scott called me. I said, " ; So Scott, how are you doing? How' ; s work?" ; And he said, " ; That' ; s what I' ; m calling you for, Mary, I don' ; t know what to do. I got to work this morning, there' ; s a figure hanging from my, the ceiling down to my desk. It was stuffed. Somebody made it." ; I said, " ; What did you do with that?" ; He said, " ; I took it down, threw it in my desk drawer." ; I said, " ; Why did you do that? Why didn' ; t you take it down and take it to your boss and throw it on his desk and tell him, ' ; What are you are going to do about this?' ; " ; He said, " ; Well, Mary, because," ; he said, " ; You know, they don' ; t like me because I' ; m Japanese. These engineers have been nasty to me and my boss is one of them, so they, he' ; s not going to do anything." ; I said, " ; Okay, I' ; ll take you to central office. I know people at central office. I' ; ll take you there. So we go put in your complaints. That' ; s terrible." ; He said, " ; Well, not only that, Mary, everything that comes out in the newspaper that applies to Japan and the problems with the company, you know, with cars, they cut it out and they bring it, lay it right in front of my desk." ; I said, " ; Scott, how long this has been going on?" ; He said, " ; Oh, a couple years, but I never said anything." ; ' ; Cause he said, " ; You know, you got your own problems working as a women with transmission." ; And I said, " ; I don' ; t have problems like that because I would' ; ve stopped it. But Scott, you have got to do something about it. ' ; Cause I understand you' ; re becoming an alcoholic, and drinking and being an alcoholic isn' ; t going to take care of those things." ; But today he' ; s got Alzheimer' ; s so bad, he' ; s in a nursing home. And she called me the other day to see what this flyer was that she got for Keiro Kai, because I' ; m handling them. And I said, " ; Oh, Barbara," ; I said, " ; you' ; ll attend, won' ; t you?" ; ' ; Cause she used to come with-- She' ; s not Japanese. She used to come with Scott to a lot of our get-togethers and she said, " ; I would love to see you, Mary. I think I' ; m going to come." ; I said, " ; Well, bring Scott. He doesn' ; t have to talk or anything. Just get him out of there and bring him." ; And I said, " ; Have your son bring you, and Gordy can handle him." ; You know, so she' ; s planning on doing that. Mary Doi: Oh, that' ; s very nice. Mary Kamidoi: And I said to her, " ; Why didn' ; t you call me earlier to let me know before Scott became an alcoholic?" ; She said, " ; Well, Mary, I didn' ; t want to bother anybody." ; And I said, " ; Well, you should have asked me, or told me what you can do." ; I would' ; ve taken him to central office to talk to these managers that I know there. So, you know, this has been going on with a lot of people in their jobs. And don' ; t let them fool you, because these Niseis are not going to tell you things like that. And so, you know, whenever I am talking to my Nisei friends or now the Sansei older friends, I ask them, " ; How' ; s your job?" ; And this and that, and some of them say, " ; I can' ; t wait to retire. I can' ; t wait to get out of there." ; That just tells you that they' ; re running into problems with their coworkers. And so you know, I always tell them, you know, you don' ; t have to sit there and take it. You need to go to the top man. Don' ; t start with your supervisor because they' ; re too chicken to do anything. They' ; ll tell you, " ; I' ; ll look into it." ; They' ; ll never come back with an answer. So you start from the top down because when the top man says there' ; s nothing you can do about it, then that' ; s it. You' ; re at a stop. Dead end. And then you have to find another venue. And so they always tell me, " ; Gee, Mary, and I wish I was more like you." ; And I said " ; You know, I had to become like I am because I ran into so much discrimination when we got out of camp and we went to Missouri." ; And so I said, " ; I learned the hard way. As long as you let kids mistreat you, they' ; re going to do it, so you have to stop it somewhere." ; And they said, " ; How did you stop the kids picking on you?" ; And I said, " ; I went to the mother and I told her what her two boys are doing." ; But I said, " ; The man that recruited us from camp, he was a big plantation owner. He was the nicest man you' ; d ever want to meet. He did everything for us to make our life comfortable." ; And he had always told all of us, " ; If you people ever, ever run into a problem with the neighbors or anything, tell me." ; because all the neighbors were renting from him, he could have just evicted them. So they would' ; ve known better than to keep picking on us. So I, that' ; s what I did. And the young kids that rode the bus with me kept holding me back, Mary, you can' ; t do that. I said, I can do anything I want. I' ; m tired of these kids making fun of us. But the last thing that really broke the straw was they got on the bus one morning. Can you imagine these kids taking a piece of paper like this and folding planes, big planes now? And they would take this red marker, the circle would fill the plane, and they threw it at us kids. I thought, " ; What are they doing?" ; That' ; s when I panicked. I thought " ; I' ; m going to do something about it." ; And from that day on, nobody picked us, on us because the word got around in the neighborhood. Plus at school, because the lady at school, that was our teacher, I know she stole the money from me. I always took money with me to stop at the grocery store to pick up groceries because we had 45 minutes wait for the buses. And so I would pick up little things. And that day I had $50 and we had to go out for recess. So we stuck everything in our little desks. Mary Doi: I' ; m, I' ; m going to stop you there to get us a little bit back on track with this interview. Mary Kamidoi: Okay. Mary Doi: Let' ; s talk a little bit about, you mentioned that you had allies, a Jewish fellow who was coming up with names and another non-Japanese American woman who was the chapter president. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah. Mary Doi: Can you think about other kinds of things that you did after the bill has passed to ensure that Michiganders, Japanese American Michiganders get their redress apology and check? Mary Kamidoi: Oh, well, we decided that they wouldn' ; t tell us when we got it, but when they didn' ; t get it, they were calling all of us complaining. Mary Doi: Did you help people fill out the paperwork or alert them? Mary Kamidoi: Oh yeah we did. We did. Because you know, they had never filled out a form like that. A lot of it was about yourself and your life, you know, where you' ; re born and all that. And a lot of the Niseis forgot where they were born and all that. You know they' ; ve been here struggling. So anyway, we helped, we' ; ve helped them fill out forms, but we had gotten calls from people when they didn' ; t get their check because " ; My neighbor got it." ; But see, they weren' ; t listening when this all came out and how they were going to make the pay. And a lot of people didn' ; t get the PC and all this was happening in the Pacific Citizen. And that' ; s where we read a lot of this. And so we' ; d explain to these people, they' ; re paying from the oldest person. So you know, because you' ; re a lot younger, it' ; s coming down. Eventually you' ; ll get it. Because that was a ruling from the government. They would pay from the oldest person. And it was an elderly gentleman, the first person that got it. And they showed his picture and everything in the Pacific Citizen. And I always said to them, if you would just read that paper that comes from you from national, you' ; d know just as much as I know and the board members know. And they said, " ; Well, we don' ; t have time to read the paper." ; I said, " ; You have time to sit in front of the TV, turn the TV on and read your paper." ; But you know, I don' ; t know why Japanese are the way they are. They expect people to do so much for them. They play like dumb. Like they don' ; t know what to do. " ; So can you help me? What are we supposed to do? What, you know" ; And so a lot of us on the board laughed, " ; Gee, when they got their check, they didn' ; t call anybody. Did anybody get a call? And what are we supposed to do with the check?" ; And we laughed about it, but after a while when we got through laughing, it was disgusting because this is how the members were. Now I got it. And then a lot, a lot of them that joined when all the information came off of redress, we had hundreds of members after they got their checks, they never renewed their membership. And we were really upset about that. We thought, you know, these are ungrateful people. And I used to kid my friends on the board, " ; I' ; m glad I' ; m not like you." ; I would say, " ; I' ; m glad, yeah, that' ; s what you think." ; But I said, " ; Well, I' ; m never going to tell you when I get my check. That' ; s my check." ; Mary Doi: Well, speaking of your check, what did you do with your check? Mary Kamidoi: Well, I' ; ll tell you. First thing I did was I went and bought myself a condominium. I took the bank, went to the bank, cashed it and went and found a condominium. And then when I found a bigger one, I bought this other one. And from the first condominium, I was able to sell it at a good price. And I was short like about $600 from the sale to buy my big one. ' ; Cause I have a bigger one now. And so you know, a lot of the people that were members, when they' ; d come to our gatherings, I' ; d ask them, " ; So when, when are you going to Hawaii for a vacation?" ; " ; Oh, we' ; re not going, ' ; cause we didn' ; t get enough. ' ; Cause I bought a brand new car, and you know, this is true, majority of the Niseis and the Isseis that got-- well Isseis, we didn' ; t want to say they should donate. And so we found out that none of the ones that got checks other than the board members, we did donate what we thought we should. ' ; Cause we were on the board, but the other members that just joined just for that redress, they never gave us a dime. And we were so upset with these people and I don' ; t know, it' ; s, it just, they were just so greedy. You know, they knew that JACL was trying to have fundraisers to keep the JACL going. You would think they would' ; ve given us like a hundred dollars or so, but they all would come to these meetings that we had telling us " ; We bought a new car" ; and that' ; s a big deal! I' ; d like to have bought a car too, but I needed a roof over my head! But you know, I, I always say this to even among my Japanese friends, why are we like we are? And they' ; d always say to me, " ; What do you mean?" ; I said, you know, our culture is just so that we shouldn' ; t do this, we shouldn' ; t do that, and this and that. And then I said, gee, when you want help from these people that we' ; ve done so much to help them, they don' ; t even renew their membership. Why? So now we' ; re down to about 40 members. Eventually our-- we' ; ll be down to 25 or less, and we won' ; t be a chapter, but you know, it just seems to be it' ; s going that way. And, and a lot of the students have joined because I handle the scholarship and I put it in the newsletter once in a month, but our president put it on the internet. So these people that are not Japanese are jumping on the bandwagon are going to join. So they can get the scholarship. They didn' ; t know that Mary' ; s handling it. And I screen every word and I make phone calls. So we haven' ; t had any applicants for a while, but I have three during the pandemic. They were not Japanese kids and everyone on review, and I thought, who is this? Well, I assumed they got it off the internet. And I call all the reference phone numbers and the people, every one of the applications, they had numbers and names of people that weren' ; t even real. So-- Mary Doi: Well, let' ; s bring it back a little bit more toward redress. You know, I know the scholarship and I know that membership is really important. Whether you' ; re in Chicago or Detroit or Cleveland, I know that that is a hot button issue wherever you are that-- Mary Kamidoi: It sure is, today it is. Mary Doi: Yeah. But when you think back about the redress movement, what were the main outcomes of the redress movement for the Detroit community? Mary Kamidoi: Well, a lot of them were glad that now they' ; re going to get some money. But then again, when they came to our meetings, we always stressed that you know, National worked awfully hard. They' ; ve got a bunch of young fellows and young girls that became attorneys so this would never happen to anybody again. So now we' ; re sitting here talking about redress and the money we' ; re going to get. So I says, I do think these people that have never joined before, they didn' ; t need us. And I said, I think we need to stress to these people that the Detroit chapter is not going to last forever unless you members rejoin and see if they will join. But years went by and you know, every year or less and less would renew their membership. And so now like I said, we' ; re down to about 40. And so you know, I guess they spent their money and they don' ; t need JACL anymore. That' ; s the feeling that we get on the board. But now see our board, I' ; m the oldest one there. I could be their grandmother really for all of them, but we have a couple of young people and see, their, their interests we found out, or I found out, it' ; s mostly going to national conventions, MDC meetings for our area. And I' ; m saying, " ; You know, I' ; m the treasurer and I told you how much money we have. We can' ; t be spending that sending people cross country." ; And another thing, I don' ; t mean to step on anybody' ; s toes, but when we sent delegates and the chapter was really going well, and we had older Niseis and people you know, that attended, we came back and the first thing we did was wrote an article on what the National decided. When we come back from MDC, we expect the same thing from our delegates because we' ; re paying your expenses and this has not happened. So I just want to warn you guys again, this is the balance in the bank. And if you think I' ; m going to transfer any scholarship fund again into the working fund, you guys are mistaken because I' ; m not going to do it. Because I' ; m finding out the expenditures going to the National and MDC are running us into the ground. You know, and I think on the meetings I don' ; t attend, I can almost hear what they' ; re saying about Mary, but that' ; s okay. It doesn' ; t matter. I-- And it' ; s just that when it gets back to me, they' ; ll be, sorry. Mary Doi: Let' ; s, let' ; s kind of broaden this out. Do you feel that there' ; s a connection between the Redress efforts and more Japanese American conversations about incarceration, not just Japanese American incarceration as internment, but other kinds of communities that are facing you know, whether they are refugees trying to come into the U.S. or-- Mary Kamidoi: Oh yes. Because I know a few people in the Mexican town. Mary Doi: Yeah. Mary Kamidoi: And in fact these are guys that come over to contact the, the complex where I live and I signed the contracts and also I get to be friends with these people. And ever since they' ; ve been having problems with Mexicans coming across the wall, they' ; ve asked me, what do you think, Mary? I said, " ; I think it' ; s terrible." ; But I said, " ; Why don' ; t people in Mexico do it in the proper way?" ; I mean, I see TV watching it. They have babies in their arms trying to cross over a river and so many of them are not making it. And so they said, " ; Well, you should go to Mexico and be the governor there." ; And I said, " ; I wish I could go there because this is ridiculous." ; All those people trying to cover, you know, cross rivers, it' ; s dangerous. And then I said, " ; Then you see the kind of situation where they' ; re put into. Why are these people still coming across?" ; They see what their relatives and all their friends are going through. And I said, " ; There' ; s a, there' ; s a certain way for people to be able to come over to the United States." ; And these Mexicans, they' ; re really nice guys. And they tell me, you know, " ; That' ; s why we' ; d like to talk to you, Mary, because you give us advice." ; And I said, " ; Well, if you' ; ve got any relatives, tell them to do it the right way." ; Because I said, " ; If they have babies in their arms, that' ; s terrible." ; And so you know, and they the Mexicans do face a lot of discrimination here because whenever you hear, well, they think they' ; re Americans, they' ; re, they' ; re you know, they got a background, they' ; re not full fledged Americans. They' ; re criticizing, " ; All these Mexicans. They' ; re lazy people coming over here." ; And I said, " ; How do you know about these people?" ; I said, " ; Well, you go to Mexican Town, you wouldn' ; t go back there a second time." ; I said, " ; I' ; ve been to Mexican town." ; I said, " ; They' ; re very nice." ; And I said, " ; It isn' ; t fair for you to pass your judgment on them like that. They' ; re desperate. So I guess they would do anything to come here. So you know, we have to be a little more you know, understanding." ; Mary Doi: Right, right. Mary Kamidoi: And I, I never told them why I can talk this way because I' ; ve been through it, but they do bring that up. And then you know, the Arabic people went through a lot of discrimination. And the Indian people have come here, gone through a lot of discrimination. And there' ; s another group, I forgot what the name of the group is, but anyway, they' ; ve faced a lot of discrimination. Mary Doi: And do you feel that it' ; s reminiscent of the discrimination that Japanese Americans faced? Mary Kamidoi: It is. It is. Mary Doi: Okay. Let' ; s get back to the Midwest region. Do you think that there, what made the Midwest unique in the redress movement, if anything? Mary Kamidoi: Well, I, I really don' ; t know why it was so unique out here, but the redress program was nationwide for the Japanese people. So I think everybody had the same type of feeling, because when I talked to my friends in California, they would tell me about the redress and that we' ; re going to get this kind of money and we' ; re going to go on a trip and all that. And so you know, I think everybody had that feeling that we deserve it. And it was time the government gave it to us. And you know, I' ; m, I' ; ve never been really the type that always looked for freebies and always talking about money. I' ; ve always preached to my friends money is not everything. I' ; ve seen millionaires go down the drain. And I said, and you know, I' ; ve always believed that as long as you have your health, you have everything. And my dad and mother preached that to us, us 10 kids. And my dad was very giving. And he always preached to us kids, if you run into anybody that needs help, help them, as long as you have food and clothing on your back and a roof over your head, you need to help the needy. And I used to sit there looking at him like, God, there' ; s a lot of things I want dad, but I, I can' ; t get it. But you know, but this is the way I was brought up. I' ; m not saying all 10 of my, nine of my other sister and brother are that giving. But I always said, I' ; m broke donating, especially now that you know, there' ; s Covid and everything and all the politicians are coming out. And so you know, and I, and people have said to me, what do you mean money isn' ; t everything Mary? I said, I have friends and I have two family members. Where are they today? They' ; re six feet under, just like every other person. Money did not help them when they took sick, money didn' ; t help them one bit. So there' ; s a lot of truth to that. This money, money, money thing is not what it' ; s meant to be. You can buy a lot of things that most people can' ; t buy. You can live in a million dollar house, fine, but are you really happy in these big homes? Are you really happy? You' ; ve got so much room, you' ; re wandering around all over. You don' ; t ever sit in one room long enough to be happy. And so you know, I have friends that come over to visit me in my condo. And of course if I just cleaned my condo, it wouldn' ; t be as cluttered. But-- And, and they stand there and they' ; ll say, gee, you know what, are they selling any here? I' ; d like to have a condo like this. I said, you couldn' ; t ask for anything more than what I' ; ve got here. Everything is here in my unit. So I said, well, if I hear of anybody selling, but I said, I want to tell you one thing you guys, you think giving up your home, living on a condo, you got it made. You' ; re mistaken. Condominium living is not what everybody thinks it is. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I' ; m going to interrupt again, and this is a question that I' ; m really interested in. So we have the redress movement. To me, you know, we talk about redress and reparations, and in my mind it' ; s somehow, points toward the idea of repair. Did the redress movement, the apology, the money help to repair what got broken for Japanese Americans during the war? Mary Kamidoi: You know I really can' ; t say that it did. Because you know, the Niseis, like I said, they bought cars and, and they might' ; ve gone on a vacation and this and that, but they had little children to send to school. So on the other hand, they had to pay for all this schooling that they had. So I' ; d never really heard anybody say, " ; Gee, you know, I' ; m glad we got it because we deserved it" ; and all that. Because you know, I guess because I used to read all these editorials for days and days. I read the paper at work and this one section would be a whole page of nasty editorials. And I had coworkers that said to me, did you read the paper today? And I said, " ; I can' ; t read papers." ; " ; What do you mean you can' ; t read papers?" ; And I said, " ; I can' ; t read too well, don' ; t tell everybody though." ; I wouldn' ; t tell them. I, I read the editorials, and I' ; m furious. And they would tell me what they read. I said, " ; They' ; re stupid." ; I said, " ; Don' ; t even read that paper anymore. They' ; re a stupid bunch of people that are writing those hate editorials, one day wait until they get in a position." ; And they said, " ; Well, you know, when you get your money, what are you going to do with it?" ; And I said, " ; I' ; m not getting any money." ; And they said, " ; Why aren' ; t you?" ; I said, " ; Because they figured I didn' ; t need the money, so they just crossed my name off. I' ; m not getting the money, so don' ; t look at me going down the hall at me like, ' ; Oh, I wonder what you' ; re going to do with all that $20,000.' ; " ; But I had them fool for a long time that I didn' ; t qualify and they thought it was terrible. And I said, why don' ; t you write to the president and complain about me? But they didn' ; t do that. They weren' ; t smart enough to do it, really. But so you know, yes, I mean, it was an advantage to me. I bought my first condominium. I was running up until then, and I think a lot of the Isseis and Niseis, they were able to go out and find a home that they could afford. But the Niseis had made a plea to their Isseis, " ; Mom and dad, don' ; t be buying next door to another Japanese family." ; And I think I' ; m sure that a lot of the Japanese people in the Midwest felt that, felt that way because if they were from California, you know Japan town here and a Japan town-- and you know the hakujin people, they rated you a certain way. Oh, a bunch of foreigners live there. And so, so many of the Detroiters here, they said they told their mother and dad, you know, we' ; re going to move here and there. There' ; s no Japanese there. And his parents felt sort of bad because they wouldn' ; t have anybody to talk to. But they explained to them, " ; We don' ; t want to live among all the Japanese people because they know all your business and Japanese people do do that." ; I mean, I have to be honest about this whole thing because I, I am not one to be circling around avoiding the truth. And so you know, I' ; ve always said that. I said that to my parents too. I said, " ; You know mom, the thing is when we move out of camp, don' ; t try to move where there' ; s a lot of Japanese people." ; And she said, " ; Why not? We can all be together then." ; I said, " ; No, I don' ; t want to live like that." ; And in Detroit, most of the Niseis felt the same way. Mary Doi: So why didn' ; t you want to live like that? What, what, what would happen if you lived like that? Mary Kamidoi: With a whole bunch of Japanese? No, don' ; t you know from my days in Stockton as a young kid from the time I was probably eight, I would listen to my parents talking like, go visit your, your grandmother, grandma. I' ; d to listen, but I couldn' ; t speak it well, but I understood everything. And they' ; d be talking about all the Japanese people in town, and I thought, my God, is this what all the old people do? They' ; re criticizing their neighbors. And after that, I just thought, I don' ; t want any Japanese neighbors around me, and I don' ; t want to live in a Japan town. ' ; Cause it' ; s just too close. And I knew people that live in Japan-- a Japan town, and they would tell me how you know, the older people, they gossiped and then they want to, they want to marry you off to the next family son and the daughter. I said, " ; Oh God, I couldn' ; t stand that." ; So that' ; s why the people here, I' ; m going to use Detroit. They all live in different suburbs. So all these third, fourth generation, well, I guess they' ; d be the third generation-- Mary Doi: The Sanseis like me. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah. See, they don' ; t have any Japanese friends. Now see, my sister lived in a Jewish subdivision. All the kids, their friends are Jewish people. They went to school with them. They went to high school with them and all. And today, three of my nephews and a daughter, my sister had, they don' ; t have any Japanese friends. So you know, it' ; s sort of sad. So the nephews and nieces that I have that I haven' ; t got married, they have children. And they' ; re a mixture. And it seems like the men, when they move, I mean when they marry a non-Japanese, they sort of fall towards their in-laws. And so the kids don' ; t know any more than you know, most of the thing about the in-laws. And I see this in my own family, and I, got loads of nieces and nephews, none of them understand Japanese. None of them have Japanese friends. And it' ; s because they all live in separate subdivisions where there' ; s no Japanese feeling. And so you know, in a way it' ; s good, but in a way it' ; s not. Mary Doi: Yeah. Well, we' ; re getting near the very end of our time here, so I' ; m going to kind of wrap it up with this one question. What are your main takeaways or lessons from the redress movement? Mary Kamidoi: The main takeaways? Mary Doi: Or lessons. Mary Kamidoi: Well, I felt that, okay, so the government admitted their fault and they paid the Japanese people. But you know, the 20, $25,000, you would' ; ve got 25,000. Reagan turned it down. 20,000 you got. It does not bring back all the things that you lost. You' ; re starting all over. And I think with the Isseis, if a few of them got it, because like my mother, she missed it by one week. My dad missed it by a year and a half. And I felt so bad because I always said from the very beginning, you know, regardless of whether we get the redress money or not, hopefully they' ; ll hurry up and pay the Isseis. Because you know,I felt so bad for the Isseis. They lost everything. They worked so hard. And when I used to see my mom and dad burying things in the backyard, we didn' ; t know how long we' ; d be gone or anything because the government didn' ; t, didn' ; t give you that info. And I used to say, mom, " ; Why are you digging the hole? We' ; re going to be gone. Don' ; t plant any flowers." ; And she said, " ; I' ; m not planting flowers I' ; m going to bury our valuables from Japan." ; So whoever buried things in the ground and the people moved in and took over the homes, they probably just threw them all out. ' ; Cause they wouldn' ; t know the value of it. And so you know, so many of the Isseis did that, buried things in their backyard. And my mother, when it was money, she tore her coat you know, linings up, and one night I saw her at the dining room table tearing the coat, and I thought, " ; We' ; re going to be going to camp Mom, you got to save that coat." ; I said, " ; Why are you tearing the lining?" ; Well, she said, " ; What money we have--" ; She said, " ; I' ; m not going to bury it outside. I' ; m taking it in my coat lining." ; " ; What?" ; You know as a young kid, I' ; m going, " ; What are you doing?" ; Mary Doi: Right. Mary Kamidoi: Thought she was cracking up really. Mary Doi: So Kat, I know that we' ; re at the end of 90 minutes now. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mary? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I did have a question. So you talked a lot about the fear that people felt you know during the eighties with the political climate and the social climate. Do you feel like that changed at all in Detroit after the Civil Liberties Act was passed? Were people less fearful about moving around freely or speaking publicly about their experience? Mary Kamidoi: Well, after all the people got over the anger, and it didn' ; t come out with the papers, we did have a little quiet spell. But then again, when the car slump came along and Toyotas were selling, we were back into it again. And it' ; s never going to stop for us, as long as Toyotas are selling, because even today, Toyotas are selling. And, and I always said to my coworkers, " ; You know, you' ; re no different than I am. We work here, we make a fairly good salary and all, but you' ; re going to go shopping and look for the best bargain for the money you' ; re going to spend. It' ; s the same thing with people out there buying cars. They' ; re going to look for the best deal they can get, the best car for whatever money it' ; s costing them. And you guys can' ; t tell me differently." ; And they said, " ; We don' ; t have a choice, Mary. We work for Ford Motor Company. We have to buy Fords." ; And I said, " ; Yes, we do." ; But I said, " ; If you go out of Ford, I' ; ll tell you what' ; s going to happen to you. You will not park in that parking lot where we park today." ; Mary Doi: So even now, people feel that? Mary Kamidoi: Oh, yes. Mary Doi: Wow. Mary Kamidoi: And see now, it' ; s getting to that point again. The cars are not selling because they' ; re too expensive. I just talked to my friend, Mike, yesterday. He drove up and he' ; s waving, and I thought, " ; Who is this yo-yo? I don' ; t know anybody in that blue..." ; So I stood there and here comes Mike, my friend. He said, " ; Mary, you don' ; t know a friend anymore?" ; And I said, " ; Where' ; d you get this car?" ; And he said, " ; Oh," ; he said, " ; I had to buy it. My other car," ; he said, " ; fell apart." ; He said, " ; I hate this car. If I didn' ; t, if I didn' ; t worry about me working at Ford' ; s, I would' ; ve gone General Motors or Chryslers." ; I said, " ; Neither one of the cars are any good, why skip around with other automakers?" ; He said, " ; Yeah, I hear from people that I don' ; t, you know, that didn' ; t work at Ford, they' ; re buying Chryslers, General Motors, and stuff. They' ; re having problems with it." ; So I said, " ; So what do we do now? Because I need to get a new car." ; He said, " ; I don' ; t know, Mary." ; I said, " ; Well, I, I intend to go out of Ford Motor Company if I have to. I don' ; t want these cars that you' ; ve got to find a charging place." ; I said, " ; You know what? You travel on the freeways, Mike, and I think, I think you' ; re going to understand how I feel. Say if I was going to go to D.C., like I' ; ve been going a lot, where am I going to find a charging station?" ; And he said, " ; Yeah, that' ; s going to charge within a few minutes, Mary." ; It takes hours to charge a full-sized car. And I said, " ; Well, that' ; s why I' ; m debating. I have to go out of Ford Motor Company if Ford can' ; t make a car that, that doesn' ; t, doesn' ; t have to be charged." ; Because really, I said, " ; You, you' ; re always driving from here to Pennsylvania. Where do you go to charge it?" ; He said, " ; Before I leave my place here, I charge it up and I just hope and pray that I' ; m going to get good mileage and I don' ; t get detoured all over to use my gas." ; So he said-- Mary Doi: So, so when you talk about leaving Ford, do you talk about, when you think about that, are you thinking about buying American, as Chrysler or Plymouth, or are you thinking about leaving American autos and going to German autos or Korean-- Mary Kamidoi: No, no I would probably buy a General Motors or Chrysler. Mary Doi: Okay, okay. Mary Kamidoi: Whatever company that' ; s got a car that I want that I don' ; t have to charge up. I don' ; t want one of these cars where you have to find a charger. I mean, I, I don' ; t think you' ; re safe driving one of those cars, because you know, even with a gas tank, a lot of the gas gauges don' ; t work. So what about these fancy charging places? And so when you' ; re on the freeway, what do you do? Where do you look for one? So now Mike was telling me, he said, " ; I complained to the dealership where I got this car." ; And I said, " ; Yeah, I know where you got it." ; And he said, " ; How do you know?" ; And I said, " ; Because you had to use my phone number to get it because you need my pin number that I get it for you." ; Because when he quit Ford' ; s, he couldn' ; t get the discount anymore. So he said, " ; Oh, that' ; s right. I' ; ve got to use you for the discount again." ; But he said, even himself, he' ; s not happy with the Ford he' ; s got. Mary Doi: So, so let me kind of understand this, that one of the lessons from redress is that there' ; s still a sensitivity about owning a Japanese car when you work in-- Mary Kamidoi: Yep. Mary Doi: --when you live in Detroit, when you' ; re a former Ford employee, or even a Chrysler or Plymouth employee. It' ; s still there. It' ; s still the, there' ; s a little reticence on your part? Mary Kamidoi: You will not find very many Niseis or Sanseis driving a foreign car. And you know, and I' ; ve noticed that with all my friends. They don' ; t buy foreign cars. So I' ; m on my sister' ; s back all the time. She' ; s got a Toyota. Her daughter' ; s got a Toyota. I said, " ; You know, you guys are going to be targeted one day." ; And my sister said, " ; Well, if somebody shoots us and kills us, Mary, you' ; ll know what happened to me." ; And I said, " ; Yeah, and I' ; m going to say, ' ; I told you so.' ; " ; But we laugh about it. But I get serious and I tell her, " ; Joyce, you' ; re really not safe driving around in that Toyota." ; She' ; s got a fancy Toyota. Her daughter' ; s got an SUV. So many times when I have to haul things, they' ; ll say, " ; You can take--" ; Lisa will tell me, " ; You can take my SUV." ; I said, " ; Are you kidding? I' ; m a Ford hired employee." ; And I said, " ; Somebody will shoot me that would know that I work for Ford' ; s." ; I said, " ; No, I can' ; t do that. If I' ; m going to move things out of my place, I' ; ll just go and rent a U-Haul." ; Mary Doi: So there' ; s that continued fear about, about buying foreign. Mary Kamidoi: Yep. Mary Doi: Now, one of the people that-- Mary Kamidoi: But see, hakujin people or anybody else can buy, but don' ; t let the Orientals buy because they don' ; t know the difference in whether I' ; m Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, or whatever. Mary Doi: Or whether you' ; re Japanese American, not just Japanese. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah, they, they don' ; t know that. Mary Doi: Right. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s why we' ; re all from the old country. Mary Doi: Yeah. So perpetual foreigner. Mary Kamidoi: And when they tell me, " ; But I' ; m an American," ; I said, " ; Are you crazy? You' ; re Polish, you' ; re Polish American." ; " ; No, I was born and raised here." ; I said, " ; I was too. And don' ; t you know your history? The only Americans here are the Native Indians. And if you don' ; t believe me, you go up north." ; They had a big lawsuit here in Michigan, and one of the girls that worked with me, she was one of the-- Mary Doi: Plaintiffs? Mary Kamidoi: ...descendants. So when this all came to a head, she said to me, " ; You know what?" ; Because she was discriminated, too. And she said, " ; You know what? When I get that check," ; she said, " ; I' ; m not even calling this company to say I quit." ; She said, " ; Let them try to find me because my husband and I are going to pack and we' ; re going all the way up north to live." ; And that' ; s what she did. And so many people in section said, " ; I wonder what happened to, to Bennett. She' ; s not working here. She didn' ; t come to work yesterday. She didn' ; t come the day before. I wonder if she' ; s coming back." ; And they' ; d sit there talking about her in front of me. I said, " ; You don' ; t know this, but she quit. But I' ; m not telling you guys. You find out for yourselves. You didn' ; t talk to her. You weren' ; t nice to her like I went through. And so you know what? Now you find out for yourself what she' ; s doing." ; And later on when the subject came up one day, we were at a little gathering, and somebody brought it up, " ; Geez, you know, has anybody heard from Evelyn Bennett?" ; And I' ; m sitting there eating, and I said, " ; No. She just dropped out of the face of the Earth. Wonder where she went or what happened to her." ; And they went on and on and on describing her and how she dressed and everything, and I got fed up, so I said, " ; Let me tell you guys something. I' ; ll tell you what happened to Evelyn Bennett." ; They said, " ; Oh, how come you know?" ; And I said, " ; Because we, we' ; re friends before she left, and she sends me Christmas cards every year." ; " ; Oh, well, Mary, you' ; re just an exception to the rule," ; and all these things. I said, " ; No, I' ; ve got friends and you don' ; t. Okay? So I' ; m tired of you guys cutting her down, how she dressed, how long her hair was, and her shoes and all that. You know what? She dressed the way she could, and she could afford. But now, I' ; ll tell you what the laugh is on you guys. She was one of the descendants. She came into a bundle of money. They just left their house in Allen Park and left. They had a small bungalow. They had no children. So she told her husband, ' ; When we get that check and we cash that, we' ; re hitting the road and we' ; re going to buy a house all the way up north, and we' ; re going to furnish it with all the new furniture. We don' ; t want this house anymore.' ; " ; And it wasn' ; t you know, a house that would' ; ve sold for a hundred thousand or anything. So I said, " ; You' ; re going to just leave your house there?" ; She said, " ; Yeah, the city can have it. Because you know what? As soon as this came into a bill, my husband had said, ' ; We' ; re not paying taxes on our house.' ; " ; So they owed taxes for about five years. So they said they' ; ll just let the city have it because they didn' ; t pay taxes five years. Mary Doi: So you feel a kinship in terms of the redress and reparations that they were able to secure? Mary Kamidoi: Mm-hmm. That' ; s why you know, I always argue with people that criticize foreigners. I say, " ; What do you think you are?" ; " ; I' ; m an American." ; I said, " ; You' ; re not a full-fledged American. You don' ; t look like an Indian." ; They say, " ; What does the Indians got to be with my ..." ; I mean, this is how much these people that are so discriminating know about people. And you know, so often, when I go to school, this is what they want me to talk about. The teachers have actually asked me, " ; Do you want a job here? I' ; ll get you one, because we really want teachers." ; I said, " ; Are you out of your tree?" ; I said, " ; Instead of students coming and shooting the teachers, I' ; ll probably shoot the students." ; So I said, " ; No, that' ; s a, that' ; s not a very good idea, you guys." ; And we laugh about it because in Detroit, there' ; s so many young kids shooting teachers. Mary Doi: Oh... Mary Kamidoi: When you hear and you see the picture of a six-year-old kid going to school, grammar school, with a gun, shooting the teacher, that' ; s pretty sad. And this is why-- Mary Doi: It is, it is. Mary Kamidoi: ...I always say when I get into a conversation with kids doing that, I said, " ; Where are the parents?" ; Mary Doi: Right, right. Right. Mary Kamidoi: The kids couldn' ; t go out and bought the gun. Parents had to buy it. And I said, " ; It' ; s the parent' ; s fault." ; They need to put all the parents that bought guns for their kids and... Instead of sending the kids to jail, send the parents to jail. Mary Doi: Yeah. Well, I think we' ; re going to have to wrap it up here. Kat, do you have another, any other questions or comments? Mary Kamidoi: Nope. Mary Doi: Katherine? Katherine Nagasawa: Just one last quick question. You know, I think something I noticed about you is that you' ; re very fearless about speaking out and speaking your mind and you know, holding people accountable, even though you face discrimination. I wonder you know, why did you feel so compelled to speak out publicly about incarceration and advocate for redress in spite of the climate in Detroit? What, what do you feel like gave you that, that courage? Mary Kamidoi: Well, I' ; ll tell you one thing that gave me a lot of courage is when I worked at Ford' ; s, the managers used to see me talking to hourly people. They' ; d be in my office and they' ; d hear me because I didn' ; t whisper to these people. I said, " ; Get out of my office. I don' ; t want all that grease off your shoes or your clothes. Get out of my office, first of all." ; So they' ; d back out into the hallway. Managers would be working the hall, and they' ; d hear my voice because I didn' ; t whisper. I thought, " ; Hey, I got something to say. I don' ; t care who hears me." ; So anyway, they would stop by on their way back and they' ; d come in and say, " ; Mary, we heard you talking to that hourly man. You know what? We give you a lot of credit. Don' ; t you let anybody talk down to you like that." ; Every manager was my friend, not as a manager, as a friend. And every day when they came to meetings, all of them would be carrying cups of coffee down to my office. And all the other people would say, " ; How come you know all the managers?" ; And I said, " ; Like I said, you have to know the right people, because you know what? That' ; s what' ; s going to get you a job, and that' ; s what' ; s going to get you ahead." ; So I start from the top. I don' ; t need to know you peons, you know? You can' ; t do anything for me. But they said, " ; You know what, Mary? You have more guts than brains." ; I said, " ; That' ; s what you need today, especially when you work in an auto company. I' ; m sorry, you guys, but you guys are complaining to me all the time about your boss this and your boss that." ; I said, " ; Why don' ; t you speak up to him? Your boss is really a good for nothing man." ; I said, " ; His boss is a friend of his from Cincinnati. So he gets away with raising his racing pigeons right out of the Ford parking lot." ; So I said, " ; Hey, so why do you take all this guff from him? He got a job through somebody else. He didn' ; t earn that job, and now he' ; s doing that, and you guys watch it, and you guys have said to me, ' ; Come, come down the hall with us. We want to show you something.' ; " ; When I saw it, I stopped on the way back in Paul' ; s office and I said, " ; By the way, Berger, do you get paid raising racing pigeons out the parking lot?" ; He looked at me and said, " ; Mary, how do you know I do that?" ; I said, " ; I watch you from the end of the hallway." ; And I said, " ; And then you' ; re bugging me for overtime. How dare you?" ; I said, " ; As of today, overtime is cut off for all my people." ; And he said, " ; You can' ; t do that, you know, I have five kids and a wife to support." ; I said, " ; Hey, feed them pigeon. You' ; ve got all those pigeons flying out in the park." ; And you know, and you know, I used to think to myself, " ; If you think I' ; m going to bend for you guys because you are not nice to me, because you' ; re only nice to me only because you have to report to me. I sign your time cards. That' ; s why you' ; re nice to me. But behind my back, I can imagine what you' ; re saying about me, which is fine. Just don' ; t let it get back to me." ; And so you know, they always kidded me about it. " ; You can do anything, dear Mary. You know the general manager." ; And I said, " ; Yeah, he' ; s a good friend of mine." ; I said, " ; Don' ; t step on me." ; And they said, " ; Are you kidding? Do you think we' ; re stupid?" ; And I said, " ; Yeah, you guys are a stupid bunch of people that I work with." ; But I said, " ; You know what? Don' ; t cross my path and upset me," ; because I said, " ; I' ; ll walk right down to the end of this building and I' ; ll go see Mr. Manoogian hey. And if Henry Ford walked in here, I' ; d talk to Henry Ford, too." ; And they said, " ; You wouldn' ; t." ; And I said, " ; Why wouldn' ; t I talk to Henry Ford? He owns this big company we work at, and I' ; m going to ask him, ' ; Is it all right if I buy a Toyota?' ; " ; They said to me, " ; Mary, you wouldn' ; t ask him." ; I said, " ; Give me the chance. I would." ; Mary Doi: Kat, did you have one more question? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. So you know, outside of your work in the auto industry, what made you, what gave you the courage to speak up for Japanese Americans and push for redress? Mary Kamidoi: Well, because-- Katherine Nagasawa: Even though you know... Oh, go ahead. Mary Kamidoi: Because I' ; m Japanese and I faced a lot of discrimination when I was younger and when I was going to grade school. And so I said, " ; I took care of that problem," ; because our landlord owned everything. The school and the town where we went to school. All I had to do was drop Mr. Donald White' ; s name, and it intimidated everybody because they were on his land, farming. And so it' ; s like this neighbor lady, she knew she was in trouble when the kids were in trouble. So she started baking cakes and pies, and the kids would bring it over to us, and the kids would always bring it to my place, at my parents' ; house, and tell me, " ; My mom and dad said, you know, would you pass it around to everybody?" ; And I gave it to everybody. And my mom always said to me, " ; Why don' ; t you eat this?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m not hungry, Mom." ; You know what I always thought? " ; She' ; s probably trying to poison me." ; That' ; s why I wouldn' ; t, I wouldn' ; t touch anything that she baked and gave us. And you know and, it' ; s like, you know my mom got upset because I spoke out on the bus and everything. I said, " ; Ma, you know what? They made these things here and they threw them all..." ; I took one home you know, and I showed her. She said, in Japanese, she said, " ; My goodness," ; she said, " ; That' ; s a terrible thing for kids to do." ; And I said, " ; The bus is full of those." ; And I said, " ; And you know what? The two adults that were on the bus with me, they didn' ; t dare open their mouth. Never. They never opened their mouth. They were afraid that the kids would all gang up on them." ; And then I had to threaten the bus driver before all this stopped. I thought, " ; I' ; m going to threaten everybody because now I got Mr. Donald White on my side, and these people are at the mercy of our landlord." ; So they all changed their mind. All the kids on the bus, they sat down when they got on. They didn' ; t run around, and they were throwing paper wads and everything. I went up to the bus driver and I tapped him on the shoulder. He was driving. I said, " ; You need to stop this bus." ; And he said, " ; Why? The coast is clear." ; I said, " ; That' ; s what you think. Maybe the road is clear, but it' ; s not clear in this bus. You need to stop these kids from running around. And you know what? They' ; re throwing paper wads." ; And I had them in my hand. I said, " ; They' ; re throwing these things at us. And sir, if you don' ; t start telling these kids to sit down, instead of running around, picking on us, you won' ; t have a bus to drive tomorrow." ; He looked at me like, " ; How dare you?" ; He gave me that look. I said, " ; Oh, you think I' ; m kidding, don' ; t you? I' ; ve taken enough abuse and we don' ; t, we shouldn' ; t have to put up with that kind of abuse." ; And the two older ones said, " ; Yeah, but they could have ganged up on us. That' ; s why we don' ; t say anything." ; I said, " ; Well, they could gang up on me, too." ; But I said, you know, " ; It' ; s just not right. We don' ; t do anything. We don' ; t say a word to them. And because we' ; re Japanese, they' ; re picking on us." ; And then I said, " ; What cut the cake is those planes with the big red dots on them." ; Parents had to help them make it because every kid had a pocket full of them. And I told Mrs. Bird that. " ; So how long did you stay up? You and your husband stay up helping your kids make those planes?" ; She said, " ; I don' ; t know anything about it." ; I said, " ; Don' ; t play dumb with me, Mrs. Bird. This is what brought it on. I don' ; t think we should take that kind of treatment from your boys." ; And she was very sorry. And I thought, " ; Sorry doesn' ; t cut it, lady, because I' ; m not taking your apology." ; But she sent all this bake stuff. And when we moved there, moved from there, I told my mother why I never ate cakes and pies. She said, " ; Baka" ; she told me " ; Baka" ; . She said, " ; You think she would' ; ve poisoned you?" ; I said, " ; She would have tried." ; Katherine Nagasawa: Do you feel-- Mary Doi: Okay. Kat, what were you going to say? Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, do you feel like there was ever a point in your life where you were more deferential to authority or quiet, or were you always somebody who spoke up and had that kind of-- Mary Kamidoi: I always spoke up. Mary Doi: Chutzpah! Mary Kamidoi: I fought my little girlfriend at school, grade school, all her battles. Her name was Mary Ladd. She was a rich girl. The mother and father dressed her spotlessly, and all the kids made fun of her. They would yank at her hair, they' ; d pay the-- they' ; d pull the ribbons out, they' ; d yank at her clothes, and she would have shoulders ripped. And I thought, " ; I you know, I can' ; t just sit here and see these people doing this to her." ; She didn' ; t do anything. She just dressed so well. And they called her all kinds of names, and she cried and she cried all the time. So I became a friend of hers. So from the time I was eight or nine, I really fought for my friends. I just could not see kids being mean to another kids, if they didn' ; t ask for it you know. And so when, when I found out that I couldn' ; t go to the house anymore because I was Japanese and the father would' ; ve lost his job, and he was the general manager of all these banks in that area in Stockton, and that' ; s what made him afraid. " ; I can' ; t have a Japanese come into my house." ; I could understand it, but it did make me mad. Mary Doi: It must have hurt, also. Mary Kamidoi: It did, because I thought, " ; I fight all your battles," ; and then she did start crying, and she told me, she said, " ; Mary, you could, can still be my friend, won' ; t you? I need you because everybody picks on me." ; So I said, " ; Of course I' ; m going to be your friend." ; So I don' ; t know what happened to her after I left and we got put in camp. I could never get ahold of her, and the first trip back to California, I went to visit her. The home wasn' ; t there. There was a lot of homes built in their property because their home' ; s set way back, and it was a fenced-in big lot. And I sat there in the car thinking, " ; I know they lived there," ; because I noticed the bridge that we had to cross to get over to there. So I, I tried and tried, but I couldn' ; t get any information. I even went to the city hall to ask if you knew where the Ladds move to. And they said, " ; Even if we have the information, we' ; re not allowed to give it to you. It' ; s confidential." ; So I gave up looking for her. And even today, I can, if I' ; m just sitting here, I can see her, and I wonder whatever happened to her. But you know, when you saw Charlie' ; s Angels, that Cheryl Ladd that was on there, I' ; d, I watched that all the time. I thought, " ; You know what? She' ; s got blonde hair like my friend Mary has. She' ; s tall and thin--" ; Mary Doi: And gorgeous. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah, and she was so pretty, because as she got older, her facial... And, but the kids never let up on her. So ever since you know, I' ; ve been a young kid, I' ; ve always fought for the underdog, and I still do it. And when I, when I do this at the condominium where I live, I get nasty people telling me, " ; God, you can' ; t be too smart being a friend of hers." ; I said, " ; Yeah, I' ; m pretty stupid talking to you." ; And you know, and people are just, I don' ; t know. It just seems as though all of a sudden, people are so nasty. They' ; re so hateful. You run into that all the time. So when my friend told me that she went to this Kaufman Funeral Home, it was-- and she said, you know, " ; I walked in, Mary, and a lady came up to me and said, ' ; What in the world are you doing here?' ; That' ; s a Jewish funeral home." ; I said, " ; What did you do?" ; She said, " ; Mary, I was so shocked. I just ran out the door, got in my car, and cried all the way home." ; I said, " ; Well, thank God you live so close to the funeral home. You probably would' ; ve had an accident on John Lodge." ; Mary Doi: So this was a Nisei friend of yours that went to the funeral? Mary Kamidoi: Yes. And I mean, we laugh about it every time she talks about funeral homes. And she says, " ; Oh, I can' ; t see you today because I' ; ve got to go to the funeral home." ; I said, " ; You' ; re not going to Kaufman' ; s, are you?" ; And she said, " ; No, thank God I' ; m not." ; I said, " ; Well, let me give you a word of advice. If you go to Kaufman' ; s the next time, you better have that in the back of your mind. Somebody comes up to me, you tell them off." ; But you know what? She always said to me, you know, " ; I always feel so safe when you go shopping with me. I don' ; t have to worry about somebody picking on me." ; I said, you know, " ; Toshi, I' ; ve gone through so much discrimination when we got out of camp, and even when we moved to Michigan. The city that we went to, they never saw Orientals. Kids in school never talked to me or anything." ; And I thought, " ; Well, here we go again." ; So finally you know, I noticed you know, they had kids that were monitors at every door. There was four doors to the school. They always picked kids to be monitors. So I would watch this and I said, " ; How do you get to be a monitor?" ; So one day I asked one of the girls and she said, " ; I don' ; t know, because I' ; d like to be a monitor, too. They get credit for that and they don' ; t have to be in class." ; so I said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to find out somebody." ; She said, " ; Who are you going to ask?" ; And I said, " ; Well, you know that secretary, she more or less runs the school." ; And I said, " ; She knows all the students." ; And she' ; d been talking to me, " ; Hi Mary, how are you today?" ; So I thought, " ; Okay, now I' ; ve gotten to the doorway." ; So I asked her one day, and she said, " ; Mary, I' ; ve been meaning to ask you to be a monitor for a week, one, one week," ; because they get monitors for one week at a time because she said, " ; I' ; ve noticed your grades are good." ; I said, " ; Is that the way you get to be a monitor?" ; And she said, " ; Yes, we consider the grades." ; So after that day, the first day, everybody' ; s looking at me with the books, going to classes, and I' ; m at the front door, the main door, and I thought, " ; You guys take a good look. I haven' ; t seen you guys sitting here." ; And so I sort of made a joke of it and I laughed. And so finally, the superintendent came out and he said to me, " ; Mary, you' ; re doing a good job. That' ; s why we put you at the main door." ; And I said, " ; Oh, any door, I would' ; ve did the same job, Mr. Thompson. You know me. I don' ; t do you know, a job just halfway." ; And he said, " ; That' ; s what I like about you, Mary. That' ; s what I like about you." ; Mary Doi: I think that' ; s a great theme and ending for this story, that you know you not only stick up for the underdog, but you' ; ve had this sense of righteous indignation since you were a kid. Mary Kamidoi: Yeah, I, I just wanted a fair treatment. Mary Doi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mary Kamidoi: ' ; Cause I thought, " ; If I look different, I can' ; t help it. But everybody looks different." ; But you know, if everybody' ; s born here, we' ; re right to the-- we have the right to be treated properly. And I always said that to my sisters and my brothers, and they said, " ; Yeah, you don' ; t want to live very long, do you?" ; That' ; s what they used to tell you, " ; You don' ; t want to live very long, do you?" ; And I said, " ; Well, I don' ; t know about that," ; because I said, " ; Living with you guys, you' ; re always picking on me. So I don' ; t want to live here that long." ; But they always kidded me about it. And one of my brothers, the youngest one, said to me, " ; Yeah, one day somebody' ; s going to take a pot shot at you." ; And I said, " ; Well, they better take a good one because if I survive it, they' ; re not going to live to tell about the rest of their life." ; But you know-- Katherine Nagasawa: I love all of your-- Mary Kamidoi: --my siblings always kidded me about me being mouthy. That' ; s how they put it, " ; Mouthy Mary." ; So when they had to make decisions in the family, they always had Mouthy Mary make the decisions because, " ; If she' ; s wrong, we' ; ll crucify her." ; Mary Doi: Well, I think that that' ; s a, a really good image to leave on, that you' ; re, you' ; re mouthy, but you' ; re mouthy in a good way, that you are sticking up for principles, you' ; re sticking up for people, you' ; re sticking up for, against unfair treatment. Mary Kamidoi: That' ; s right. Mary Doi: You know so-- Katherine Nagasawa: Mary? Yeah, I was just going to say, I' ; m going to just stop the recording for now so we cap it at two hours. Mary Doi: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: But we can continue talking. Continue talking. Mary Kamidoi: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m just going to stop it. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KamidoiMary20230331.xml KamidoiMary20230331.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Kamidoi, Mary (3/31/2023)
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Kamidoi, a nisei who resettled in Missouri and then Flint, MI after being released from incarceration, discusses her involvement with the Detroit chapter of the JACL from the 1950s to the present. A longtime employee of Ford Motor Company, she recounts numerous experiences of racism, discrimination, and anti-Japanese sentiment in Detroit, largely fueled by auto industry workers' loyalties to American car manufacturers in competition with Japanese manufacturers. She describes the response to the murder of Vincent Chin and the complex social and professional pressures that existed for Japanese Americans and Asian Americans at the time. She also provides details about the redress effort in Detroit and her experience attending the CWRIC hearings in Chicago. An outspoken person from early childhood, she describes many instances of fighting against injustice throughout her life. She shares clear memories of her mother's preparations for incarceration and reflects on the patterns of dispersal and assimilation that prevailed in Detroit during the resettlement era, acknowledging the consequences of this for younger generations who lack strong cultural ties.
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2023-03-31
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Kuramitsu, Keilyn
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kanemoto, Neil
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/15/2017 Kanemoto, Neil (11/15/2017) 1:31:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kanemoto, Neil Takada, Anna Kuramitsu, Keilyn video 0 https://vimeo.com/309196898 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/309196898?h=4b5b5a32ca" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you just state your full name? Neil Kanemoto: 00:00:02 Um, I am Neil Kanemoto. My middle name: Yoshio um, but uh, I don't use that. Um, the only time I've really heard it in my life, is one of my father gets mad at me and when I was growing up and he would, when he's gets, gets mad at me, he would always say, "Yoshio!," um, but otherwise, that's the only time anybody has ever addressed me by my middle name. AT: 00:00:28 Okay. And, um, can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? NK: 00:00:33 I was born on September 20th, 1943, at the Tule Lake internment camp in, uh, northern California. AT: 00:00:45 And, um, where, where were your parents originally from? NK: 00:00:53 Um, my parents, were from Seattle, Washington. Um, my, grandparents, I guess came to the United States in about 19, the early 1900s before 1910. Um, my father's family, my father and his wife moved to Seattle and, uh, he opened a barbershop there. My mother's parents got married in the United States. My grandmother was a picture bride and they settled in Tacoma, Washington. And, uh, my grandfather, my matur- maternal grandfather owned a meat market there. And my mother worked in the meat market there in Seattle and that's where my parents met, in Sea- in Tacoma. AT: 00:01:54 Okay. And, um, do you have any siblings? NK: 00:01:59 Uh, I have two sisters. Janice, who was a year older than me and Jane who was two years younger than me. I had a older brother, Bobby, who, he was born in 1937 in, uh, Seattle. And he died in 1944 in camp in Minidoka. AT: 00:02:32 Um, so that means that you were the third child? NK: 00:02:37 in the birth order I was number three, yes. AT: 00:02:42 Um, okay. And then, um, do you, can you tell me what you know about, um, what happened to your parents and your family around the time that the war broke out? NK: 00:03:05 At the time the war broke out, my parents, while they got married in 1936, um, they lived in Seattle, Washington. My father worked for a dry goods company called Furuya and Company. Um, where they sold dry goods basically. They lived in Fuji Hotel during, in that, those few years before the war. When the war broke out, they were sent to the Pinedale relocation center in, by Fresno, California. Or I guess it's actually in Fresno, California. And they were there until they were sent to, Tule Lake. My sister Janice was born in the Pinedale camp in 1942. After, um, my older sister was born, they finished their construction of camp and we were sent then to, Tule Lake and I was born there. About two months after the, um, I was born, we moved from Minidoka to- from Tule Lake to Minidoka. And I guess that was the point at which the Tule Lake was being filled up with the No-No Boys, the uh, supposedly the hardcore resistors to the, um, to the internment. Uh, so they were the, the former, uh or the people that were in Tule Lake were given an option to either stay there or move to other camps. So, um, we, our family moved to Minidoka. AT: 00:05:07 And so at that time it was your parents and the three young children, is that right? NK: 00:05:14 Uh, yes. And then in 1944 a year after I was born, then my brother died of illness so. They called it blood poisoning. But uh, at that point they didn't have the antibiotics and medicines to take care of him. So he passed in camp. AT: 00:05:39 Um, do you know how long was your family, um, in each of these places, when NK: 00:05:48 I think they were in Tule Lake for about a year. They were in Minidoka for a couple of years. Now my, in Minidoka my grandparents were there as well as my uncles, two uncles, uh, they were there also. My grandfather was quite a adventure-type guy. And, uh, he left camp early. He left camp in 1944 before most of the people, uh, well most of the people were still in camp, I guess. Uh, if you go east or away from the Pacific states, you can, people are allowed to leave. Uh, he, since he owned a business and he was fairly well-to-do at that point. He had a car that a neighbor kept for them. And so he, with his car, he and my grandmother decided to look for a place somewhere to live for the family. So he took off east and went across the country, went through Chicago, went to the east coast, up and down the east coast, down even down to Florida, looking for different places. I, um, and then he, uh, decided that Chicago was the place, uh, the best place for the family to be. So he went to Chicago and set up residence there and, uh, going to war when people were, most of the people were leaving camp, he called for the rest of the family to come. And that's how we got to Chicago in, uh, late 1945. AT: 00:07:48 Wow, so he toured around for a bit before making... NK: 00:07:48 Yeah, I think he, for about six months, he, uh, he went around the country and looked at different places and... AT: 00:07:59 Do you have any idea of sense of how he was able to fund a trip like that, did he have some savings or? NK: 00:08:01 I think he had enough savings. Um, he was very fortunate in, with his business, his meat market. And, uh, he had a very good neighbor, um, the Wunders. He always talked about the Wunders and uh, they bought the business from him with apparently a reasonable price, not, not a giveaway, kind of a price. And they actually stored his belongings and kept his car and they were good fam- close family friends. So, uh, with his money that he had from his business and from, and his car and he was able to, I guess do pretty well with his cross country journeys. AT: 00:09:01 And um, to clarify, this was your mom's father? NK: 00:09:05 Yes. AT: 00:09:07 Um, and as far as, um, so of course you were very young when you were in camp. Um, where, where are your first memories? NK: 00:09:22 When we moved to Chicago, well when, when the war ended, I was basically an infant. So I have no recollection, no memories at all. Uh, when we moved to Chicago, my grandfather bought a three-flat building in Douglas Park on Kedzie, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, not Kedzie, um, Albany Avenue and about 13th Street. Um, and it was a three story building. And my grandparents lived on one floor, we lived on another floor, and my uncles lived on the third floor. Um, that's where my first childhood memories are. And I have uh, we moved from there when I, when I was still four years old. But I have a few memories, uh, of that. And so that's... AT: 00:10:15 And I want to ask you more about that, but, um, before we move on to some of these Chicago experiences, um, were there any kind of, um, stories that you often heard about camp or kind of like a family collective memory about camp? NK: 00:10:41 Um, camp was, uh, it was not a taboo subject, like in some families where they refused to talk about it, but they did talk about camp and the way, it wasn't in a negative tone. So it was more like just a, a move, you know, like to a different town or something. And I did hear stories later about, uh, you know, it wasn't about the mess hall and the how to do the laun- how they did the laundry and the lack of privacy in the bathrooms and things like that, uh, the dust that was always present. But it wasn't, uh, spoken of as a real negative kind of an experience. It was just something that had to be endured. Um, the term I'm sure everybody uses is shitaka ga nai, you know, 'can't be helped'. Um, the internment, you know, there was a war going on. They were required by the government to, to relocate inland. And, uh, they did you as, but wi- without protest. Uh, they didn't particularly like it, but they didn't rebel against it. AT: 00:12:01 And so, um, so as you were growing up, um, as a child in Chicago it was something that you were always aware of? NK: 00:12:12 Oh yeah. Yeah, always aware of. That, uh, and the talk among the, at least the adults, the older generation, my grandparents' and my parents' generation, you know, the first question is 'what camp were you at' and you know, this kind of thing. And if they were from the same camp, you know, the question, the next question, 'what block were you from in the camp', and, uh, you know, 'who did you know in the camp, you know, that we know' that kind of thing. Um, but I don't know if I just answered your question. AT: 00:12:51 Did you ever do that? As you said, that was generally the older folks. Did you ever find yourself doing that? NK: 00:12:56 Well, yeah. Um, it's, in my generation, uh, at least the older, the people that were born before the war ended, they were all from camp. So, you know, the question was, oh, 'where, where were you from,' you know, we'd say Tule Lake or Minidoka or Jerome or wherever, whatever camp. Um, in 1940, uh, after '45, uh, the people, the Japanese, younger people were all born here, so they were all from Chicago. So there wasn't anybody else from any other town that you know, because they, they were all here. And then as I was growing up, a lot of those, my young Japanese friends, their families moved back from Chicago to the west coast. Where, after they worked a little bit and got some money and things were a little bit more settled, in, on the west coast and they moved. So I lost quite a few friends who moved back to the west coast to, either to California or to Washington state. AT: 00:14:09 What age range would you say that happened around like, how old were you when, this time? NK: 00:14:16 Um, that was starting in the late 1950s to, for a period of about 10 to 15 years. AT: 00:14:27 Um... NK: 00:14:28 And that after that time, people be, got, their families became more settled and it was harder for them to, uh, relocate because their children were in school, their jobs were established, their homes were, you know, they already purchased homes since it was just more difficult to move. AT: 00:14:49 Um, so going back to the three-flat that your grandfather had purchased... NK: 00:14:52 Yes. AT: 00:15:00 Can you, can you tell me what, what you do you remember about it? NK: 00:15:05 Yeah, uh, my grandparents lived in the, on the first floor. My uncles lived, one of my uncles lived in the basement. I can't remember everything about it. I remember it was, uh, in an area that was rapidly changing racially, it, before it was a Jewish area. And most of the Jewish people had left, but there was still one on the corner, a block away. There was a kosher, um, market where they sold live chickens. And I remember my grandmother used to go in there and, to get the chickens. And whenever I went with her, I thought it was the worst smelling place I ever was in. It was, smelled horrible. What, I remember that, I remember the smell of that. Um, I remember in the backyard, um, there was a telephone wire or electric wire going across the yard. And apparently there was a squirrel up there who fell and it fell down and, and hit the sidewalk. And, uh, I looked at this dead squirrel and first off, for some reason, I can't forget that dead squirrel. I was, I was kind of shocked, uh, and that's the first time I think I ever saw anything dead. Um, my grandmother was quite a, since she worked in the meat market too, the sight of blood or anything didn't bother her, so she picked up the dead rat and opened her, got, uh, put it in the garbage. Uh, there were rats in the neighborhood. And so she set out rat traps and, and to her, removing the dead rats out of that rat trap was no big deal for her or, you know, to me, I was aghast. I, you know, I the thought of touching a dead animal was [laughs] uh, really scary to me. AT: 00:17:16 Um, do you know what kind of work, um, your family members started picking up once they were here? Your grandparents and... NK: 00:17:24 Yeah, my, uh, grandfather quickly decided that he would buy a, or buy and run a apartment building. So after a couple years, um, he must have had enough money. So he bought a fairly large apartment building on, um, Chicago Avenue and Ada Street, um, that's close to Ashland. And, uh, it was a three-story building, uh, over a set of sho- uh, stores. So all together, I guess it was a four-story building and he, there was many, many apartments in there. Most of the apartments were single fam- or a single room kind of apartments, almost like a rooming house, except there was no kit- no central kitchen or anything like that. And he, uh, operated that. So he, he was the janitor and did, did all the repairs. Um, and he made a living out of that. He loaned, I guess, my father some money so that my father could buy an apartment building on the south, South Side. So, um, my family moved into an apartment building that he bought on 63rd and Kenwood Avenue in the Woodlawn area. AT: 00:19:01 And did your dad have any additional work or was it just? NK: 00:19:04 Yeah, my father, that was a much smaller building. Um, but it was still an apartment building. Um, and it was single fan- a single room occupancy kind-of-a-place. Um, so he, he ran that with my mother. And in addition to that, he worked, he had a job first at a, I guess a bookbinding company. And he used to bring home some scrap papers and stuff and make tablets and stuff, uh, from that. But I guess the, the chemicals that they used, especially the glues and stuff for bookbinding were quite toxic, and he couldn't take that too well. His health was, was not good from that. He, uh, worked for a while in a place that made screws. I guess that was quite a physical job and as a laborer, uh, he had to carry big, heavy boxes of the screws and nails and things. And, uh, that again was physically pretty challenging for him. So he couldn't work anymore there. So he spent the next decade or so just uh, working in the apartment building. And he would go over to my grandmother's place and help her with her building too and doing some of the renovations. And, then when people moved out and... AT: 00:20:48 Would you happen to know the names of these companies, the...? NK: 00:20:51 No, no. AT: 00:20:53 And, so the first building that your, the three-flat, um, you were there only for a couple of years? NK: 00:21:05 Yes. AT: 00:21:06 Before moving into this? NK: 00:21:07 He and my, yeah, my grandfather sold it and you know, the pre- proceeds from that plus some of the savings went to buy for the purchase of the apartment building on Chicago Avenue. AT: 00:21:19 And um, as far as uh, your own friends and social world as a child, did you have any cousins in that flat, your uncles, or? NK: 00:21:35 Um, yeah. My, my uncles were a little- my mother was the oldest one, so she had the children of, you know, her siblings first. The cousins that were in Chicago were all much younger. The youngest, the oldest of the cousins that were in Chicago were uh, like eight years younger than, than me. Uh, so they weren't really childhood kind of playing cousins, but we, we saw them frequently, you know, especially during the holidays and things. AT: 00:22:14 And then what about, um, schools. And were you? NK: 00:22:19 Um, I started grade school at a place called, a school called the, uh, Wadsworth School on 64th and University and went there for one year- to kindergarten there. And then they found out that we were in, uh, on the wrong side of 63rd Street. And they said we need to go to another school. The [inaudible] School, which was actually further away, it was like three blocks further away, but I had, we had to go there, so I had to walk, we had, it was like eight blocks that we had to walk to school, but that's what we did. So that, I do, I want to [inaudible] School and graduated from there in 1957. AT: 00:23:07 And um, did, were there other, um, Japanese American families in that area [inaudible]? NK: 00:23:18 Yes. Uh, there were, there weren't as many as there were further north in the Kenwood, uh, Oakwood, Oakdale kind of area. But I did have a few friends, Japanese friends. There were two boys. Uh, they were old slightly, like a year older than me. Um, Wayne Fujiwara and Alan Nishimura. And we played together and in grade school, spent our, uh, especially with Alan Nishimura, we used to hang out every day and go out to Jackson Park and explore the Museum of Science and Industry and wo- uh, Jackson Park, Wooded Island, and well kind of did our own little adventure things like Huckleberry Finn and stuff and we had a good time. Let's see. There was Donna Ogura. I don't know if, she's uh, she's still around, she's, part of the active- part of the Japanese community here. I remember her, going to her house and, uh, not really playing with her, but, no, I used to like to go to their house because it's a, their father, Joyce and Donna's father, was a renowned, Sumei artist and he used to draw- paint and, uh, I used to o look at his paintings and like to watch him do it. And I thought I was just fascinating. AT: 00:24:54 Mm. And um, so how long was your family in the area? NK: 00:25:05 The, uh, the that area was very tough area. We were the only, um, Japanese that were still in that area. Now the Fujiwaras and the Nishimuras, they moved sev- a few years earlier. So we were the only Japanese in our whole, you know, couple-block area. Uh, in fact we were the only non-black people in that area. So it was getting kind of dangerous. Growing up in that area, it was not bad, even though it was all black, it was safe and we could play out late after dark and there was no, no worries. Drugs weren't around at that time. And, uh, when we graduated high sch- when I grad- I went to high school, the area started really getting bad and drugs started coming around and my father decided that we need to move. So we moved to the Uptown area. Or at least he bought another building in the Uptown area. And our family kind, of over a period of a year, moved from the South Side to the North Side. AT: 00:26:16 And which high school did you go to? NK: 00:26:18 I went to Hyde Park High School and graduated from there. Same with my oldest sister. My younger sister went to Hyde Park, to Hyde Park for two years and then we moved up north and she went to Sen High School. AT: 00:26:34 And um, besides school, did you do any other extracurricular activities or did you, was your family involved in temples or churches? NK: 00:26:46 We, when, in our earlier childhood, um, the church we went to was the Woodlawn Baptist Church, uh, which was on 62nd and University. And the reason, uh, we went there even though my family was Buddhist, um, my father didn't have a car, there was no car in the family, so we had to take public transportation. This church was only about three blocks away from where our home, home was. And, uh, my parents felt that going to any kind of a church was better than going to no church. In 1954 when I was 11, 10 or 11 years old, uh, he bought his first car and at that point then, um, our area that we could go to was much more expanded. And we went to the Buddhist Temple- it was called Chicago Buddhist Church, which is BTC right now on 55th and Dorchester. AT: 00:27:50 Can you tell me about your memories of those earlier years at um, when it was Chicago Buddhist Church? NK: 00:27:57 It was, um, that was good time. Um, the, there were a lot of members there and there were a lot of young people. We, the Sunday school was huge. Um, there must've been 75 to a hundred kids there. And when there's that many kids there, uh, it's almost like play time. You know, you went to Sunday school, there were classes and you look forward to when classes were over so you can play with your friends. So I developed quite a number of friends there at, uh, at the church. Uh, I was there about a year when, uh, I was kind of invited or asked to join the Boy Scout troop there. So when I was 11, um, maybe 11 and a half or so, I joined the Boy Scout troop and became very active with them and I was active with the Boy Scout troop for many years and continued to be active as a, as a adult leader with that troop. AT: 00:29:14 And so that was out of BTC? NK: 00:29:14 Yes. So even when the Buddhist Church, uh, moved to the North Side, the troop and all the activities moved up there too, so. In the earlier- they moved in 1957, so for many years, I was taking the "L" from the South Side to the North Side to participate in the church activities, including the Scouts. AT: 00:29:47 When it was still in Hyde Park, um, can you describe kind of a typical day with services and things you did? NK: 00:30:00 Um... AT: 00:30:02 Or what, what the, you know, a day of church activities, what did that look like? NK: 00:30:10 Um, the um...gosh, this is where my memories kind of fade... AT: 00:30:13 Well, this is a long time ago. It was a very specific question. NK: 00:30:15 Yeah, it was a long time ago. They had the, the basically the same kind of rituals that they have now and the ministers come out in their, in their garb, you know, their Buddhist robes and things and uh, there was chanting, there was singing of, uh, like Sunday school songs. There was a, because the church was so large, membership was so large, they had a Sunday school service that was different than the adult service. So these, the songs that they sang were more children's kind of Christian- uh not Christian- Buddhist songs. After maybe 20 minutes or so of the chanting and the minister's message, then we'd all divide up into our separate little Sunday school classes. And there must have been oh, at least a half a dozen different groups depending on the age. And um, that was a whole thing. Lasted about an hour and then you know, then it was play time after that, while the adults had their service. AT: 00:31:41 Was there a, a Japanese school out of BTC? NK: 00:31:43 Yes, that was a Japanese language school was on Saturdays and there, when I was going there, um, there must have been about 30 or 40 students there and, um, I did not like to go to language school there. AT: 00:32:11 I've never heard that [laughs]. NK: 00:32:13 Um, I, I hated it actually. I couldn't wait for it to be over. For one thing, I never did my homework and whenever we were then called on to answer any questions I [laughs] I couldn't do it. And because I couldn't do it very well, you know, it made me feel bad and made me not want to go. So I went for a couple of years. Uh, I think I set my mind to not learn even though, you know, not just sit there but by osmosis and let it sink in. I resisted learning it 'cause I, I thought it was, you know, why would I ever need to speak Japanese, you know? AT: 00:32:57 Did you speak Japanese at home? NK: 00:32:59 No, but I understood it. When we were growing up, I guess my parents, until we got into grade school, my parents spoke only Japanese so that we would somehow learn the language. But because I was a resistant child, I refused to learn how, but I did know enough Japanese to be able to understand what they were saying. And I think I still can, when people talk Japanese, I have vocabulary stored somewhere, where I know what they were saying. At least I knew when they were talking about me. So, and uh, my grandmother spoke mostly Japanese. Uh, so she would talk to me in Japanese and I would answer her in English. Her, she knew enough English to, to understand. Her understanding of English was much better than my understanding of Japanese. AT: 00:33:59 And um, that was actually something I wanted to ask you about is your relationship with your grandparents, um, as you were growing up. And again, to clarify this was, it was only your mother's parents who were in Chicago? NK: 00:34:16 Right, my father's parents, they left Jap- uh, they left the United States to go back to Japan when my father was only like five or six years old and he was raised in Japan and he came back as a young teenager. And so my grandparents stayed in Japan, so I never knew my, my father's parents. AT: 00:34:43 Do you know where they were in Japan? NK: 00:34:46 They were in Hiroshima. AT: 00:34:48 And so they were there duri- throughout the war? NK: 00:34:51 Uh, yes, my grandfather I think must have died before World War II and my grandmother, she died in the early 1960s or maybe late 1950s. And, uh, I have seen many pictures of her. I should say that I do have a sister in Japan. She's not my biological sister. She's my, she's an adopted sister. She's my biological first cousin. Um, my father adopted her in the late 1960s. Or actually, my father adopted her as a teenager so she could take care of my grandmother who got, who suffered a stroke over there and um in her last few years she needed someone to take care of her. So my, my first cousin Masako agreed to, to take care of her and in return, she would inherit the family farm. And because my father was the oldest son, in fact, he was the only son that was left, and he had no intention of going back to Japan, somebody had to run the farm and carry on the Kanemoto name in Japan. So she, she changed her name to Kanemoto and became my sister and she still lives in that same house. AT: 00:36:31 And so as far as, um, during the war, di- was any of your father's family, like immediate family, did anyone else go to camp? Or was NK: 00:36:47 Ah, yes. Um, my father had a brother, Kozo, who was, who went to camp. He was a few years younger than my father. He's my uncle Kozo, he's still alive. Um, there were, my father had, uh, was one of five siblings. Four of them were born in the United States. One was born in Japan. Uh, there was a brother that was born in Chica- in United States who was, who never came to Chi- um, back to the United States after, before the war. He was actually drafted into the Japanese army and was killed in the Philippines during the battles there, um, of World War II. So, he was a war casualty. Um, my uncle Kozo interestingly, was in the United States army. He, he wasn't drafted. He wasn't quite old enough to serve, uh, to be drafted, but right after the war he joined the army and was sent to Japan to be part of the occupation forces there. So of my two uncles, I thought it was interesting that one was in the Japanese army and one was in the American army. AT: 00:38:30 Um, and, um, so growing up in Chicago, it sounds like you were pretty familiar with and immersed in the, in Japanese American community here. NK: 00:38:48 Yes. AT: 00:38:49 Um, how would you describe, um, well actually I'm gonna wait to ask that question, but, um, so to, to go back, um, a little bit, you're on the South Side and going to school and in BTC and Sunday school and then, uh, in '50...in '57 you moved Uptown. NK: 00:39:28 Actually, I moved in, um, 1962, my sisters moved in '61. I stayed on the South Side with my father, uh, who- he was- still had the building on the South Side that someone needed to be there. So he was there and I stayed with him too because he shouldn't be there by himself. I was a freshman in college, so I, was no big deal for me to, to live down there. And the following year then uh, he sold the building and we move- we all moved up uh, we moved up to that building that he had purchased on Leland Avenue in Uptown. AT: 00:40:14 I see. Um, and where, where did you go to college? NK: 00:40:20 That's, that's an interesting story there. AT: 00:40:24 When you were a freshman? NK: 00:40:24 I was, I was not a good student academically. I was a rebel. I, I resisted authority- my father's authority, school's authority. I wasn't, I wasn't a troublemaker, but I was just a passive-aggressive 'leave me alone, I don't want to do it' kind of a kid. And I got into college at University of Illinois at Navy Pier and um, I didn't do too well. I was taking a number of courses that I, I didn't like and I didn't make the grade. So I, I flunked out after one year. Uh, I went to a city college, here in Chicago- Luke College, which is now called Harold Washington. And, uh, started taking classes there and took a biology course that I absolutely loved. I just thought that was the greatest course. I just loved biology and I had a good teacher, uh, who encouraged me to continue with biology. Now that Luke College was just a brand new school, had just opened and they didn't have any courses beyond the basic biology. So he encouraged me to go to Wright College, which I did, and took more biology courses. And, low and behold, I all of a sudden my grades went from a 'D' to a 'A' and 'B'. Um, and this instructor's name was Frank Schuble. Uh, just kept encouraging me all along, you know, that I should look into that as a career. So I went to a school in Iowa and continued with my biology, which I continued to love and got good grades and got into graduate school at the University of South Dakota and got a master's degree in the biological sciences there. And all during this time I was in college there, this Frank Schuble was very encouraging. He, I don't know why he liked me so much. I just loved that man. He said, if you, when you finish graduate school, if you're looking for a teaching job, come, come and look me up. So I, when I graduated, uh, first, uh, I didn't, I didn't know what I was going to do. I was told by the draft board that don't go to any more school after, after I finished my master's degree 'cause there were, I was going to be drafted, so don't even think about a PhD. And I got my draft notice and I flunked my physical so I didn't have to go into the army. So I called up Frank Schuble my instructor and said, I just finished, you know, my, my graduate degree. And he said, why don't you come and teach here? So I did. I taught at the, uh, at this Luke College. Um, I taught there for eight years and during that time I got married and my wife worked for the government and she had a fairly high level job and she got a tremendous job offer in Philadelphia. So we had to, I had to make a decision to continue with my teaching, which I liked or do I go with her career. Um, so we moved to Philadelphia and, and uh, I had a hard time finding a job there. And after a year of doing, just kind of job hunting, I, uh, uh, did couple of jobs for a couple years and then decided to go to school to become an occupational therapist. And that's what I did. I went to Thomas Jefferson University and got a master of OT. AT: 00:44:42 How long were you in Philadelphia? NK: 00:44:44 A total of about eight years. AT: 00:44:47 And then did you return to Chicago? NK: 00:44:49 Well, I, after I graduated, um, my marriage didn't work out, so I got divorced in Philadelphia. I continued to work in Philadelphia for two years at a hospital as a occupational therapist. My goal as therapist was to become a hand therapist specializing in people with hand injuries. So I did a extra kind of, in my schooling, an ex- stayed on an extra semester to almost do like an internship kind of a thing, an advanced study in hand therapy at this place called the Philadelphia Hand Center, which is kind of a nationally renowned place. And uh, after that I moved back to Chicago and became a hand therapist in, at the University of Illinois Hospital. And did a combination of therapy plus a little bit of teaching there at the university. AT: 00:45:47 And what year was that that you were returned? NK: 00:45:49 1970...no, I'm sorry, 1987. AT: 00:45:59 When you came back to Chicago, um, where did you move to in the city? NK: 00:46:09 Uh, at first I moved back into my parent's apartment building, the same one on Leland Avenue that he moved up to from the South Side. AT: 00:46:19 So they, they still had that? NK: 00:46:21 Yeah, they still had that. Um, my grandmother lived in that building too after she got too old and sold the building. She lived in one of the apartments there also. AT: 00:46:33 And, um, so that, that must not have been far from BTC's new location. NK: 00:46:47 Correct. That was, um, about, uh, three blocks away, three maybe four blocks away. So it was easy walking distance right down the street. It's on the same street, Leland Avenue, yeah. AT: 00:46:59 And so your, your family, had they continued attending? NK: 00:47:03 Yes. My father was active in, with the temple all the way through, all the way until, for the rest of his life. And by default, I being the son, had to also be connected. So anything that was going on with church, I had to go and help and work on things. I was not and still I'm not a religious person, but I go to ser- I go to occasional services and I consider myself Buddhist, but not, not a strong one. I'm only there because of family culture kind of things[inaudible] AT: 00:47:50 Um, do you have any questions that you wanna? Interviewer 2: 00:47:57 I do have a few if that's okay, just a few. NK: 00:48:00 Sure, I'd be glad to. I2: 00:48:02 After listening, just having some questions come up for me. So, um, and also feel free if you don't feel comfortable answering them or you just would prefer not to. Uh, but talking about, you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation about your brother's pass- your brother passing away in camp um, I'm wondering if you knew, we learned a lot about how all of these camps had really inadequate medical facilities. Um, so did his death, I don't know if, you know, have anything to do with what was available onsite at, at camp. NK: 00:48:37 From what I understand, he had, um, developed like a measles. I2: 00:48:45 Okay. NK: 00:48:45 And, uh, that was not diagnosed because of the, I guess, the poor medication, the poor diagnostic techniques that they had there. So they didn't treat him for that. And from that it developed the, uh, he developed an infection which then spread to his circulatory system and developed what they call sepsis, blood poisoning. So if he were in a regular, uh, good-type of hospital, not in a camp infirmary, um, he might've been diagnosed and properly treated, but he wasn't in. So he passed from that. I2: 00:49:30 He was, was it nine years old? NK: 00:49:33 He was, no, he was six years old when he died. I was one year old. So if he would've just had his 80th birthday, if he were still alive. AT: 00:49:46 Did your parents or your family have any kind of bitterness about that? NK: 00:49:52 Uh, no, not really bitterness, but I remember growing up every year on the day he died, my mother would cry. My, my mother was a very strong person and I hardly ever saw her cry except for that, that anniversary of his death. I2: 00:50:22 How do you think that your brother's passing maybe affected you growing up? Obviously it impacted your mom. NK: 00:50:30 Well, um, I think that had my, had Bobby lived, he would have taken some of the pressure off of me because when he died, after he died, I became the, the son and the- my father was a very typical Japan-type Japanese person. Uh, he was very strict. He was kind of raised in a militaristic type of, uh, environment. Um, he expected the oldest son to carry on in the same traditions, uh, that you know, that all good Japanese men should be- like little soldiers, um, that, 'gaman' was all important. You never showed any sign of weakness or fear or anything. And if we ever cried, oh, that was the worst sign of weakness. So we would have to, I would have to stand at attention and try to stifle my crying when he disciplined me. Um, I think that would have not occurred so much had my older brother been around. And because I was academically, my grades were not good, he would always get on me for, for performing better, you know, um, which then I passively resist- you know, passive aggressive. I resisted and, uh, suffered the con- more tirades from him. So as, growing up, I, I very much disliked my father and only after I, uh, got into college and afterwards did I really began to like the guy [laughs]. I2: 00:52:30 Um, I'm also wondering that, um, just growing up, did you ever struggle to come to terms with your identity as a Japanese American? NK: 00:52:42 Not really struggle but growing up, uh, there were quite a few taunts, um, from classmates and uh, not particularly because I was Japanese, but because I was Asian, I used to get a lot of this 'Ching Chong Chinaman, you know, sitting on the fence trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents', uh, that kind of thing. And you know, the kids would always, you know [pulls at eyes to create slant-eyed look] do that kind of thing. Um, at least, until I got into high school, you know, it, it's funny 'cause the kids that were taunting me were, were blacks and uh, you know, maybe because they were black and they had a chance to pick on another race. There were, there weren't very many Caucasians in the grade school. I went to I think, uh, in my class, graduating class of like 60, there were like eight Caucasians and like four Asians. Most of my daily childhood-type friends. The- one was a Caucasian one was a black person, and we'd hang out after school. We'd play on the playground and do things. But, uh, there were no other Japanese in the, in my school. Uh, there were, I guess there was two girls that were like five or six grades below me. They were, while I was in the eighth grade, they were like in the third grade or something like that. So not playmates or anything like that. There was one other Chinese guy in my class. Um, and uh, we, we became friends and, uh, he joined our Boy Scout troop and I knew him all the way through high school. So we went all the way through grade school and high school together and he, he was a brain and I was the dummy [laughs]. I2: 00:54:49 Um, can I ask, uh, do you remember like the redress process that was underway, kind of following? NK: 00:54:58 Yeah, I, I do. Um, I wasn't involved in that process. My cousin was. Her name is, uh, Mary Omari. Now she's Mary Sampson. But, uh, she was very active in that redress process and used to help and serve on committees and do all that kind of thing. Um, I followed it, but I was never [active in, I considered politically kind of an active person] or my cousin was, so she did that and I'm kinda thankful I got the, I got the redress money and she didn't because she was born after, but she, she felt strongly about it enough to be involved in that process. AT: 00:55:51 Were your parents alive during the movement? NK: 00:55:56 Yes. My father died, um, in 2000, the year 2000. My mother died in 2001. So they were both, uh, elderly. My father was 90, and my father, my mother was 89 when she died. I2: 00:56:16 What did they think of the redress movement? NK: 00:56:16 Oh, they were, I think they were appreciative, um, of the, you know, the finally getting acknowledgement that, uh, that, uh, a wrong has been kinda righted. But because they were, I don't feel that they were really bitter about the ex- war experience, um, they really didn't talk too much about it. They, I think they like me kind of looked at that redress money as extra spending money rather than, you know, payback for a crime that- or a wrongdoing that was imposed on them, so. AT: 00:57:01 Did you ever learn about, um, internment in, in school or anywhere in your education? NK: 00:57:09 No, not in, not in a formal education, but we've always known about it because of, you know, the talk, you know, that, um, there was always, you know, in conversations reference to 'camp this, camp that,' and I didn't, uh, take the camp, the meaning of camp to be a, like a prison, but more as a, just a, almost like a- not summer vacation place, but a kind of a temporary stage in their period of, and in their life that they had to go through. But it wasn't a horrible experience for them, so. Oh, I want to say one thing. Um, growing up, uh, the Japanese community in Chicago, especially during the 50s, um, from my earliest memories until maybe 1965 or so, the Japanese community I feel was much more cohesive than it is now. They had a lot of be- I guess because the Japanese were all, shared the same experience coming from the camps. Uh, and they were starting a new life here. They tended, many ethnic groups, when they come, they tend to, uh, come together. And there were, there were a lot of community-type events, uh, either church events at specific churches or even community kind of things like the J-, the predecessor of the JASC, which was the Resettlers Committee, uh, every year they had a big picnic and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds- we're talking large number of people- would all get together and have a big picnic in one of the parks during the summertime. Um, there would be other groups, um, like my father belonged to a group called the Hiroshima Kenjinkai, and there were, are the Kenjinkai are groups the, the Ken is the, is like a state in Japan where a lot of them would come from the same area, Hiroshima, would all get together and they would have a Hiroshima picnic. There would be like Kyushu kind of a picnic with uh, and I think that group kind of still is, uh, they still get together about once a year or so. But there were a lot of, these picnic kind of things, community organizations, social groups, the clubs. The young people form these clubs. Um, the boys, usually for basketball, the girls had more social kind of clubs, but they did sports things too. So, some of the older people, the Japanese you- that are a little older than me, they associate with groups, uh, these clubs. And I can't remember the names of too many of them, but, um, like there were the Row Babes, the Bruins, the Vikings and we were part of a group called the Saxons and we still get together and my poker buddies are, are all former Sa- are all part of the Saxons group. But, um, that, those kinds of things fell apart or stopped happening after about the 1970s or so. That, uh, there aren't any of these Japanese social groups like there used to be. And I think that's kind of sad. I missed that. Every now and then, um, Tonko Doi has, um, a reunion for the, the old social groups. So they still, some people still come and get together. Many of them have moved out of town, but they still come together, get together. Most of these reunions happened in Las, Las Vegas and I want to a couple of them. And it's, it's kinda neat. AT: 01:01:35 Um, around what time were you involved with the social clubs? NK: 01:01:40 When I was in high school, we, uh, formed a basketball team 'cause we were part of that Nisei Athletic Association and so our, our group the Saxons were a team that belonged to that group. And most of the social clubs were part of that Nisei Athletic League. AT: 01:02:04 Um, in addition to that, how did the um, social clubs sort of operate? NK: 01:02:13 They, uh, well they had their sports things, but um, there were a lot of dances. They would sponsor a dance usually at a church or something like that. And, um, some of these were from the social groups. Some of them were from just the churches, the young people at different churches. So one, one week there would be a dance at BTC. Another, there would be a dance at MBT or Tri-C or CCP or at, uh, Viking Hall. They would have dances and things like that. And they- for several years they had dances and guys would, people would bring records and there would be, they'd turn the lights down. They had, maybe a disco, kind of a lamp, you know, ball, and uh, there'd be dancing, which was, which was fun, you know, as, as we got older, you know, and, uh, interest in dating, you know, when, when we first started the, you know, girls were not part of boys' social life. And then as we got older then, boys became interested in the girls and I suppose the girls got interested in the boys. AT: 01:03:38 Um, can you tell me or explain, um, maybe some of the dynamics or the differences between South Side groups and North Side groups? NK: 01:03:50 Well, um, I don't know too much about the dynamics or differences between the groups, but I know among the, the young men that, um, there was this feeling of like the South Side group, And I'm not sure if they were mostly the Row Babe kind of guys, um, they really disliked the North Side guys. And, uh, I don't think there were any, I mean what they call rumbles or fights or anything like that, but, it's like, it's like the difference between the Sox fans and the Cubs fans, you know, you know, you recognize them but you weren't part of their, their group. And there were the South Side people were mostly around 43rd Street between the 47th and 37th Street, uh, close to the lake. There were a lot of Japanese there. Uh, I think a lot more on the South Side than there is on the North Side. AT: 01:05:05 And in the groups did, um, can you just give me more, more details about kind of how they worked? Like how many people were there? Did people have roles? Or was it just? NK: 01:05:21 I don't know if you'd call it roles, they would see each other a lot because all of those areas- those people on the South Side, just about all of those went to Hyde Park High School. And in the late 1940 and early 1950s, I would guess just by looking at the yearbooks, that at least a quarter of the students in the whole school were Japanese and because they were Japanese then they get to see each other and talk to each other and they always congregated together in the lunch room. Um, that they, they were more cohesive. They form, you know, their, their social rules or interactions were or you know, together or united as opposed to kids that went to different high schools. Like on the North Side, um, they were split into different high schools. Like a number of them went to Waller. A number of them want to Senn. A number of them went to um, what's now Lincoln Park High School. I forgot the name. Waller. Waller High School. Um, or Wells High. There's Wells High School, Waller High School, Senn. So they were, there were, I think less of a cohesiveness among the North Side Japanese students at the, because they just didn't see each others as much. In fact, Karen is um, my wife Karen, she was the only Japanese I think in the whole school, at Amundsen. They just, that part of the North Side didn't have Japanese at that time. AT: 01:07:13 And um, to be in the club, did you have to do anything or? NK: 01:07:20 No, it wasn't, um, it wasn't a formal club, but it was rather a grouping. I think some of the older clubs, especially the older girl clubs, uh, they did have regular rules and they, I think they even had, um, they wore the same sweaters with the same, you know, uh, initials on them or whatever. They, they, they dressed to- oh, alike. AT: 01:07:48 So the Saxons didn't have any- NK: 01:07:50 No, no. We never had any t-shirts or anything like that. We, but uh, or just the basketball jerseys are the only thing that had our had our name on them. In fact, I think we were so poor that we didn't, we just had the same color jersey instead, instead of having our initials. Like MBT had 'MBT' printed tee- jerseys. We didn't have a printed jersey. But, um, it was always a rivalry among those different sports groups and, um, most of the time it was friendly, a friendly rivalry and some of the situat- some of the teams had a real physical dislike for each other and they actually got into fights and things like that. But nothing that I ever was involved in or witnessed. AT: 01:08:51 If you had to describe the, um, the Japanese American community kind of, of that time and from that resettlement period, let's say until mid-50s, um, maybe late-50s, how would you describe what the community was like then? NK: 01:09:17 It was um, kind of a multigenerational. The, the leaders of the community were mostly the Isseis, the older generation. And uh, I would say, well thinking it from a kid point of view, where I was, the Issei generation were all old people, really old people. But, uh, when I think back on it, like I always recognize my father as a, probably a member of this, you know, leadership of the Is- and among the Isseis. He died at age 58, which is young. But I always, thought he had gray hair, I always thought he was an old, old man. Um, and I used to think of all the Isseis as old people. Um, the, uh, the Niseis, the next generation, and there was a pretty clear divide between the Isseis and the Niseis as far as appearance and you know, distinct generations as opposed to blending kind of a thing. The, the Niseis were the uh, the people in the community who did a lot, most of the work, the, even though the Isseis where the, were the formal leaders I guess, and then the Sanseis, like me, were just 'the kids', you know, were always 'the kids'. And, you know, gradually over, I see the Iss- the we saw the Isseis dying out and the Niseis is taking over and the Niseis were pretty much, were the leaders of the community in terms of the temples and the activities and organizations and things that, that existed in the Japanese community. AT: 01:11:12 And how you describe the, the community today? NK: 01:11:17 It uh, I would say it's, it's much thinned out, watered down considerably in terms of numbers, in terms of commitment that people have to the community. Um, that, uh, most of the people from my generation have either moved or they're not interested in, in maintaining the cohesive community that, uh, I feel. And I think I've talked to other people too, that they feel like the community as we know it now is not going to exist in 20 or 30 years because, uh, the population is just so spread out. It's so, uh, and interracial marriages. Uh, when that happens, um, the, the Japanese part of the, let's say a marriage, um, if someone is married to another cultural, you know, ethnic group, you know, it's diluted by 50% because you want to include cultural things from, from both sides of the, uh, marriage. Um, and the more intermarriage goes on, the less, um, homogeneality there's going to be, it's gonna be just widespread. There'll be some, but, um, people won't, I feel like people won't embellish their own, you know, if one person might be, even have a Japanese name, but, uh, only one-eighth Japanese, you know, what are you? You know, so I think as a, as a community, if there's going to be, how can you be that cohesive? If there's that much dilution of culture, and language and even the way people physically look. AT: 01:13:46 Um, you mentioned kind of a, a lack of interest as well when you were talking about Sansei. Do you have any ideas about why that might be or what, maybe what's changed? NK: 01:14:07 Um, I'm not sure, like thinking back, all my young Japanese friends at my age, when I was young, you know, were they not, why, why don't they participate? If the Buddhist temple had that many students in their Japanese school, why didn't they continue with their, with that Buddhist tradition of sending their children to the Japanese school or to a Buddhist Sunday school and I don't know. The, uh, and I think that's not only among the Buddhists, but among the Christian Japanese churches as well, that there aren't the younger people to sup- that, support that in that institution and the community. Um, I think it's sad. One of the reasons my daughter stopped going to, the, the Sunday school was Japanese Sunday school was because there were so few other students of her age to, to pal around with. And now there's, you know, all those few that were going to school with her. She, she's not really close friends with any of them. Where, when we were growing up, um, like most of my close friends now were the same close friends that I had back then. I don't know why. I wish it went that way. I wish people would kind of stay together more. But that's the way it is. AT: 01:15:57 What are your, what are your hopes for the future of the Japanese American community in Chicago? NK: 01:16:02 Well, I think the community is really doing, making a strong effort to try to keep the identity of the Japanese community by, um, like the JASC having a natsumatsuri, you know, that kind of a thing. The Buddhists, the churches having their different festivals that, uh, emphasize Japanese culture. I think, I don't know, if something, you know, in hindsight, way back 30, 40 years ago, people thought about these kinds of things and what they could do to retain a strong community while the community was strong. Like as the community gets weaker, you know, it's, I think it's harder to get people back to that point, that, but a lot of people like me want, feel like, should be, you know, go back to the good old days kind of thing. AT: 01:17:17 So we have um, just a little bit more time for a couple of more questions. NK: 01:17:24 Okay. New Speaker: 01:17:25 Um, one thing I wanted to be sure to ask you about was, uh, if you have any memories of any areas in the city, um, when you were growing up that might've been, had some Japanese American businesses or restaurants, or grocery stores. NK: 01:17:48 Um, yeah, I, I the grocery store thing is one that I always remember that on the South Side there were several little local storefront-type Japanese and in fact on the North Side too. That, you know, they would sell rice and tofu and all these, the different Japanese ingredients, you know, like Japan Food Corporation-type products. Um, go- I remember going there and they would have like tofu and uh, not in little plastic packages, but in a great big metal can, you know, like a five gallon can and the proprietor would scoop out a big thing like that and put it in a plastic bag and you'd take the tofu home. And I always thought those were kind of neat places. Thinking back on it then. AT: 01:18:50 Do you remember where they were located or what they were called? NK: 01:18:53 There were some like the Franklin Food Market was on 53rd Street. I can't remember the names of some of the others on the South Side, but on North Side there would be like the Diamond...I think Togari had a market there. I forgot the, if they called it Togari Market or not. But uh, the Star Market was always the big one. Star Market was probably the last one that existed in Chicago before, you know, and that closed I think over 10 years ago, but uh, that would be a place, you know, that people can go to for their, for their Japanese foods. Now they, it's all at Mitsuwa, or that other one in Arlington Heights, uh, Tensuke, yeah. AT: 01:19:42 Um, did you ever see or experience the Clark and Division area? NK: 01:19:50 My, my mother, was, um, used to work for the Resettlers Committee and uh, she was in their office there. She worked there for many years and under the director who was, uh, Mr. Nakane. Um, and from there they moved up to the Viking Hall upon Sheffield. And, um, but I remember that Clark and Division only because I used to go there to go to my mother's workplace. And at that time, um, they had, they provided a lot of different social services. They had like a, it was a place for people to get jobs or to find job listings there. In fact, she, my mother got me a lot of summer jobs because people would call the service committee to say they were looking for, you know, part time help for the, especially young men or young people for summer jobs. So I got a job working at LaSalle Photo through referral through the service committee. Um, they, they used to have more, I think a lot of social services. They used to have clubs and things for war brides and things. So during that, during that time, so they did a lot of things for the community. And uh, some of those things still carry on. AT: 01:21:31 And so, as you know, one thing that we're interested in in this project is, um, to get a better sense of resettlement in Chicago. Um, as someone who kind of grew up in this, you know, big migration and change and experience, um, how, how would you kind of describe the experience of resettlement if you're talking very generally and kind of, you know what were some of the defining factors of the resettlement experience to Chicago? NK: 01:22:14 Hm. Gee. I always thought that my experiences growing up were not that much different than other, my other friends, you know, the non-Japanese friends. You know, I used to go to their houses and eat the same kind of food. The only, our food was a little different 'cause we had more rice in our diet and more this, Japanese kind of foods. But I don't think my experience was, I, I would say overall I had a positive experience growing up that, uh, being Japanese, if anything was more of a positive, you know, in terms of, uh, then negative. Um, people just assume that, this is very stereotypical so I'm feeling funny saying it, um, that Japanese are considered to be hard workers and I think they are, you know, they're, they're quite honest basically and, uh, smart and the uh, academically smart. And I always kind of took advantage of that because people assumed I was smarter than I thought, than I was. So yeah, I say, yeah, yeah, I'm smart because I was born that way. And that I knew judo, you know, that martial arts was in my blood and in my DNA and I could just, you know, do a karate chop and knock your head off. Even though I've never taken a karate class in my life, they just assumed that. And uh, so there's positive stereotypes about the community that, um, that I think are good. Uh, and luckily for the generations before me, there were very few negatives, about negative stereotypes. So I consider I was lucky to be born the race I am, you know, being Japanese. AT: 01:24:24 I guess to, to rephrase my question, I'm wondering if, like, if you were to describe what resettlement was to someone who had no idea, what are some of the key things you would use to? NK: 01:24:44 Well at that, at that time of resettlement, people who were leaving the, the camps, um, their main thing was 'where am I gonna settle down? Where am I going to be able to find a job?' That was, that was the key thing and that was the reason that so many internees came to Chicago, uh, was, was the economic advantage. Also the fact that there was little discrimination because there were so few Japanese before the war that people didn't have, uh, any kind of preconceived, uh, you know, discrimination kind of a thing. There weren't the, um, like on the west coast there were a lot of Japanese there and you've got a target then for, for, um, racial discrimination that you didn't have here. So I don't know how much and I don't think there was much racial discrimination into the Japanese community and you know, people hear that. So they come to, they come to Chicago and wherever, you know, Detroit, Denver, east coast, wherever. So there were quite a few centers. I know Philadelphia had quite a few Japanese going, going there and like forming JACL chapters and things like that. I2: 01:26:22 Just one more question for you before we end our session. Um, has the internment affected you personally at any, if it has, how has its legacy manifested itself in your own life? NK: 01:26:41 I, I really don't think that it had, uh, an impact on me because you know, it was before I had any memories of, of what camp might have been like. Now, if I had childhood experience and memories of living in those barracks and living under those conditions, it might've. Um, and that's one of the things that, uh, this, like the Kansha project. And two years ago I went out with my wife to take a tour of the different camps and we've been to nine of the 10 internment camps and seeing, you know, what life was like in those and, it was quite appalling to me, uh, the conditions that they had to live in. So if anything now I feel a little bit more, uh, angry about what the, uh, actions of the government were to cause that internment. Uh, and I see a lot of that stuff still happen. So it made me a lot more politically aware of the situation then and what has changed and what has not changed, so. I don't know if that answered your question. AT: 01:28:08 What inspired you to take that trip? NK: 01:28:14 Um, I've been totally aware of, you know, all the camps and things and my father was very active in the community. Um, he, he had a lot of books and things out of the camp. You know my, the, there were, there's always been a lot of these short movies and things about the camp experience that's shown to the, to the, uh, Japanese community. Uh, so I was fully aware of that and I just wanted to find out more about what it was really like. So that, that kind of inspired me to, to do that and I've got one more camp. It's kind of like a bucket list that on the bucket list was visit all 10 camps. And so I got one more. AT: 01:29:13 Which one is that? NK: 01:29:13 Uh, that's, Amache in Colorado, but some of them were very, very well presented. Uh, Jerome, the Jerome Rohwer, there's an interpretive center. Uh, Heart Mountain has a very nice one. Minidoka has a very nice one. Um, uh, Tule uh, Minidoka, let's see...Minidoka. Heart Mountain has a very nice one. Um, and some of them were just placards out there. AT: 01:29:47 Did you try to find where your fam- or where your family was living in Tule Lake? NK: 01:29:53 Um, well it's not, I didn't want to, I didn't go to the, you know, stand on the, on the block that...Had I thought of it, I might've wanted to do it. I wanted just to be at the camp and kind of see, well, which I'm glad I did and if our going back to especially Tule Lake and Minidoka, I would try to find the blocks that my family was kept at. AT: 01:30:29 Well is, are there any final things that you'd like to add or anything that we may have missed? NK: 01:30:36 Uh, no. I think that's it. I don't know if your oral history project is going to include more than just the experiences associated with the, uh, with the, uh, settlement, you know, the resettlement and the camp kind of thing. But if it does, then, you know, I've got more stories to tell. AT: 01:31:09 Well, thank you so much for taking the time today and coming to speak with us. NK: 01:31:13 Oh, you're welcome. It was uh, you, you both made it very enjoyable to, to do this. And I had it sound like I could, like, I knew what I was talking about [laughs]. AT: 01:31:27 Thank you again. I2: 01:31:27 Thank you very much. NK: 01:31:27 Oh, you're welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KanemotoNeil20171115.xml KanemotoNeil20171115.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kanemoto, Neil (11/15/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Takada, Anna
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Kano, Sachiko
Interview Keyword
Tule Lake
Denson
Jerome
Heart Mountain
West Side
North Side
Lakeside Church
North Shore Church
Fourth Presbyterian
OHMS Object Text
5.4 7/24/2018 Kano, Sachiko (7/24/2018) 1:36:07 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Tule Lake Denson Jerome Heart Mountain West Side North Side Lakeside Church North Shore Church Fourth Presbyterian Kano, Sachiko Takada, Anna video 1:|10(9)|25(2)|31(10)|46(1)|52(8)|64(11)|73(12)|87(9)|97(7)|106(12)|120(4)|132(11)|142(4)|148(4)|168(7)|193(2)|207(4)|220(1)|231(2)|244(14)|257(1)|270(7)|282(3)|291(1)|299(15)|305(14)|322(3)|334(6)|342(4)|349(3)|359(11)|377(1)|392(11)|404(9)|424(3)|445(4)|462(3)|485(13)|502(5)|523(8)|545(6)|555(12)|564(5)|576(8)|599(7)|606(8)|617(10)|632(13)|645(6)|661(3)|666(4)|677(4)|690(2)|708(3)|719(1)|739(14)|747(8)|766(7)|780(3)|795(3)|807(14)|816(5)|832(3)|841(3)|854(6)|868(11)|876(6)|888(8)|899(8)|908(12)|925(7)|938(5)|958(8)|980(4)|993(7)|1001(11)|1014(7)|1032(11)|1051(7)|1065(2)|1078(3)|1092(6)|1122(7)|1132(7)|1142(7)|1152(9)|1160(3)|1175(9)|1186(5)|1195(7)|1216(1)|1233(9)|1241(13)|1248(11)|1258(4)|1271(8) 0 https://vimeo.com/395035722/11a129ab52 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/395035722?h=11a129ab52" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Sachiko Kano, a nisei born in Sacramento, CA in 1935, shares childhood memories of FBI raids and pervasive fear in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. She describes her family dressing in their best clothes to report to the Sacramento Assembly Center, and recounts her family's movements between incarceration sites at Tule Lake, Denson/Jerome, and Heart Mountain along with other members of their church group. Sachiko recalls her parents' decision to resettle in Chicago at the urging of some church friends who had already left camp and established themselves in the city. She describes her experiences attending school in a West Side, predominantly Italian American neighborhood before moving to the Lakeview neighborhood on the North Side during high school and eventually to Evanston after she married. She reflects upon her life lived in a white world, and wonders if her Japanese heritage might have played a bigger role if her family had been able to stay in Sacramento. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Sachiko Kano as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History project. The interview is being conducted on July 24th, 2018 at JASC in Chicago. Sachiko Kano is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So, as I mentioned to you earlier, sort of the flow of these conversations is, we like to talk about your experiences pre-war, and a little bit of background information about your family, and then learning more about what happened to your family during the war. And then kind of finishing up and focusing on resettlement in Chicago, so why your family chose to come here, and what it was like when you arrived. So, before we get started, can you just state your full name? Sachiko Kano: Sachiko Donao. That' ; s my maiden name, Donao, which is very unusual, they tell us. You know. Kano. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? Sachiko Kano: I was born in Sacramento, California, 11/1935. Anna Takada: And, to start, can you just tell me a little bit about your parents, where they were from and what brought them to-- Sachiko Kano: My grandfather came because, the story goes in the family that he couldn' ; t join the Russian-Japanese war because he was too short. And he was an adventurer anyway. He went to Hawaii in 1905, and he jumped to Sacramento area after, I understand, a year in Hawaii. And, he was married at that time, and I believe my mother was one years old when he came. And, she' ; s the oldest in the family, of the children. And, he came from Chiba, prefecture of Chiba. And the town near they- he was born and lived was in Ōhara. Anna Takada: And, so does that mean that he met your grandmother in Hawaii? Sachiko Kano: No, they were married before, in Japan. Anna Takada: Okay. Sachiko Kano: My grandfather was unusual man, that he was an adventurer. When he was young, he went up to Manchuria, and you know... Unusual because he was the oldest in the family. And I understand he didn' ; t like school, he used to ditch school all the time. My grandfather was quite a, quite a man, you know? (laughs) Anna Takada: And, so you said that he spent a year in Hawaii before moving to Sacramento? Sachiko Kano: Mhm. He moved to Sacramento because there was a family, it could be our relatives, but they always said friends named Sato. And the father, the father named Sato, I don' ; t know his first name anyway, he was in Sacramento area, I think farming. And then he called in his two sons the Satos. And, the father went back to Japan. My grandfather was actually friends of the father. The, these two men were the sons, so they were younger than my grandfather. And they started farming there. And, I guess they were in a area called Oak Park outside of Sacramento. And then the two brothers bought land, 100 acres as I understand, and then they divided among the people that came from Chiba, you know, Ōhara area. They divided land, 20 acres a piece and my grandfather happened to be one of those that bought it. And that area was called Mayhew. Anna Takada: And so, were these family friends? Is that how he knew the Sato brothers? Sachiko Kano: They could have been cousins, you never know, you know? Anna Takada: So you said your mother was already born by the time they went to-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah, one years old. Well, my mother didn' ; t come ' ; till, I don' ; t know, 1920s? They left her in Japan. My grandmother came in 1912. My grandfather came to America in 1905 and she finally came in 1912, left my mother there in Japan. My mother never wanted to go back to Japan. She never talked about her life in Japan because I think it was too harsh. My father wanted to go visit after the war and she didn' ; t want to. So my father never went back to Japan. Anna Takada: And how old was your mother when she came to- Sachiko Kano: 15, as I understand it. My cousin, she' ; s a librarian at, in Edwardsville, Southern Illinois. And her husband is you know, a Caucasian man and he' ; s a big deal at Southern Illinois. He, he' ; s in administration. Last time I heard, he was vice president at Southern Illinois, Edwardsville campus. And she' ; s doing, she was doing the research, and she told me my mother came when she was 15 years old. I knew she came when she was older, but I didn' ; t know the age my mother came. Anna Takada: And, so she joined your grandparents in Sacramento then? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, because immigration was going to... I think she came around 1920 or whatever, I don' ; t know exactly. All I know is my cousin told me she was 15 years old when she came. Anna Takada: And how about your father' ; s family? Sachiko Kano: My father came by himself. He' ; s from Oita-ken. Anna Takada: And can you tell me more about his background and why he came to the U.S.? Sachiko Kano: I, I think he was the only child for a long, long time. And I don' ; t know, he just came. He was, he was 15 years older than my mother. He came in 1912 in Seattle. At that time they didn' ; t have a port in San Francisco, so they all had to come in via Seattle. And he came to Sacramento because he had a cousin, a woman cousin that was married to a Buddhist priest. And I guess they were trying to, I don' ; t know, trying to f-find a, a temple you know, in Sacramento area so... Anna Takada: And what kind of work was he doing, your father? Sachiko Kano: He, I don' ; t know what he was doing, but he went to Utah to tenant farm for a while. Where was... Ogden! He was in Ogden, near Ogden, Utah tenant farming. And then he decided that it was, he wasn' ; t making any money or doing anything profitable. The only area he knew was Sacramento, California, so he came back there. But by that time, his cousin and the husband had gone back to Japan. He started his own business selling goods to farmers. They would order and he would bring it in. That' ; s how he met my grandfather. And I don' ; t know what happened. I guess my grandfather made a good deal (laughs). My father was a really good man you know? He let my mother run the whole show. Anna Takada: And what were your parents names? Sachiko Kano: Saichi Donao, D-O-N-A-O. That' ; s everybody that hears that Donao doesn' ; t think it' ; s Japanese. They' ; re really surprised. Anna Takada: And your father' ; s name? Oh, that' ; s your father' ; s name. And your mother' ; s name? Sachiko Kano: Nobu Yamasaki. Anna Takada: And, so what, what year did they get married? Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t know. I' ; ve got wedding pictures. My father told me after my mother had died that the wedding was, everybody from the countryside came because it was an unusual wedding that they had a Christian wedding, and that was, really unusual in those days. So everybody came to the reception, everybody. I have pictures of that down in the, in the trunk, old trunk I have. Anna Takada: And can you tell me more about their religion, your parents? Sachiko Kano: My mother, m-- I guess my father was Buddhist or Shinto whatever. And my mother was Christian here, became a Christian. My grandmother converted to Christianity first here and then I guess passed it onto my mother when she came. In fact there was, from you know Chiba, there was a man that became a pastor in Sacramento. I can' ; t even think of the name of the man because I used to play with the daughter, you know. I remember her name, Ruth, but I don' ; t remember the last name. Anna Takada: And with, what kind of Christian church was it? Sachiko Kano: Baptist. We, in fact, my parents followed them you know in camp to where the groupies you know, went to. Like we went Tule Lake, the group went to Tule Lake, and the group went to Arkansas, Denson, and to Heart Mountain. But a lot of ' ; em came to Chicago too. In fact they were, majority were members of Reverend Oyama' ; s church that' ; s on Devon Avenue, that church. But when I knew it, it was in the middle of the highway. You know, they got the money to help build the, that Devon Church. Anna Takada: And before, before we get into the Devon Church, so your, your father was Buddhist and your mom was Baptist? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, you know when they came to... Anna Takada: And so when you were raised-- Sachiko Kano: We were raised Protestant, Baptist, so I still go to the church. Anna Takada: Mhm, and do you have any siblings or did you have any siblings? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, I have two of ' ; em. Two older ones. Anna Takada: And do you know what years they were born? Sachiko Kano: The oldest was born 1928, October, I think one of the holidays in October. We don' ; t celebrate anymore. (laughs) Anna Takada: And what is their name? Sachiko Kano: Chizuko. But they always called Chiz. But I always called her Nee-san, and I used to get so mad because people used to call her other names. I used to get mad and say, " ; Her name is Nee-san!" ; Anna Takada: And how about the middle sibling? Sachiko Kano: Yuri Anna Takada: And w-- Sachiko Kano: Irani. Anna Takada: And what year was she born? Sachiko Kano: ' ; 30, on Valentine' ; s Day. Anna Takada: And then you were born five years later in ' ; 35? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: And can you, so you would' ; ve been young when your family entered camp? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. I remember some parts, but not-- Like crazy things I remember. Like... the FBI going house to house, I still remember that. I don' ; t know why. And rumors were going around, and you know people were getting scared. And I used to listen to all kinds of Japanese records. I don' ; t know if you know Naniwabushi? Anna Takada: Mhmm. Sachiko Kano: I used to listen to that and like it. Well, they, they broke every Japanese records and everything. You know, people were afraid that they, whatever they had, maybe the FBI would think that they were subversive or something, so... Anna Takada: Who was breaking the records? Or who-- Sachiko Kano: We were. You know, the parents were. Anything Japanese they would try to get rid of you know. Rumors were going around that you know, " ; This was bad and that was bad." ; So people would destroy everything. Anna Takada: And do you have, so do you ha-- you remember this as a, experiencing it as a child? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. See, things like that, I remember, some things you know? Anna Takada: How about the December 7th, 1941? Do you remember? Sachiko Kano: Well we were at a movie theater. My mother ran a business and my father had his own business. So this man, he was a friend of my parents and he used to help them out by taking us places like on Sunday. And we were at a movie. We didn' ; t know what happened, anything happened. Just came home from the movies as usual you know? He took the three of us you know to the movies so my father and mother could have some rest. Anna Takada: And, you mentioned your, your mother had a business, what business was that? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, she ran a rooming house and we lived there too. She took care of these single Japanese men. You know, they were farm workers. And when the harvest season would, would end, then they would come and stay at the hotel. She had Mexican helpers. And then my father had his own business. He had a liquor store, he bottled, he bought wine in barrels and then he bottled his own wine and he put his own label on the wine. They were surprised at how little the store was, but he sold so much they thought it was a way, way bigger operation, but he did everything himself. Anna Takada: So at some point, your father switched businesses-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: --from selling farm supplies. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Actually my mother was a good business woman. She looked so meek and you know, but she was the power in the family really. She always used to say, Papa was, but no, it was her. She ran the whole family. Anna Takada: And so financially, with your family, it sounds like- Sachiko Kano: We were pretty well off you know? My father revealed later that you know, they took the money out of the bank and my mother hid the money in corset. She sewed, sewed pockets in the inside of the corset and that' ; s where they hid the money on her. Anna Takada: So was that after the evacuation orders, they withdrew? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah, yeah because didn' ; t know what was going to happen. My grandparents were in an area called Mayhew, and that was country, inaka in those days. So they went to different camp than we did. They stayed in one camp until we called them into, you know... Anna Takada: Which camp were they- Sachiko Kano: Poston, Arizona. Anna Takada: So, unless you have any other memories of kind of those pre-evacuation orders, I' ; d love to-- Sachiko Kano: I remember us being taken to, I don' ; t know, maybe a Japanese, the Japanese Buddhist temple or anything to get shots. That' ; s what I remember. And then I remember going, you know to the first assembly camp in Sacramento. I remember my mother and father bought us these small purses that looked like footballs you know, and we were dressed in our, I guess practically best clothes you know, waiting for, I guess a bus or something to take us to the first camp. Anna Takada: Do you know why your mom dressed you up? Sachiko Kano: Well, I don' ; t know! (laughs) But we were all dressed up though, and you know. I guess we didn' ; t want to look like bums or something. Most Japanese dressed to go, you know, to camp. Anna Takada: So, can you tell me more about, so you were sent to an assembly center? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Then we went to Tule Lake. Anna Takada: And do you have any sense or idea of how, about how long you were in each location? Sachiko Kano: We were in Tule Lake until they decided that the dissidents would come to the camp. And the ones that signed the loyalty oath " ; No" ; , then they shoved us to Denson. Yeah I r-- in Tule Lake, when we first got there, I, I got really sick, you know? I had kidney disease and they didn' ; t know what to do, you know? So I was incapacitated for one or two years in Tule Lake. Anna Takada: Was there a medical facility there? Sachiko Kano: Makeshift in the beginning. Oh, I had nephritis. That' ; s a kidney disease. And there was no medicine or anything you just had to-- At that time, you know, there was no medicine, and at that time as I recall if I walked, I would blow up, you know? So, they couldn' ; t do anything. But my grandmother in Arizona, she had heard that watermelon was good, so she would cook it and send it to the, you know, our family, you know in Tule Lake. They stayed at Poston through the whole you know, whole... My uncles were, one uncle was drafted before the war, so he was in the army already. And he was stationed most of the time in Australia. He was trained, I guess, in Minnesota in the, what, Translation Department or whatever... So he was stationed in, in Australia. My other uncle went to camp. But he would go in and out of camp. He would go work you know, and then when he felt that the draft letter... I shouldn' ; t say, (laughs) but the draft letter would be coming to where he was working, he would quit or you know, it would be off season. So he would come back to camp and live there for a while. And then when he felt that the draft letter would come, he would go find another job outside of camp. (laughs) Anna Takada: Do you know the ages of your uncles at that time? Sachiko Kano: Nope. Anna Takada: At least of draft age. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Do you, what are some of your memories of Tule Lake? Sachiko Kano: I remember one memory that they said a young kid drowned in the river around there. So everybody from camp went out there to look for the young man. I guess he died drowning in the... I don' ; t remember too much about camp life. Maybe I just put it out of my mind. But, you know, there were things that you didn' ; t realize was going on in camp, you know? Anna Takada: But you realized later, or? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Yeah. Like the No-No boys, you know? Anna Takada: Not realizing... Sachiko Kano: Yeah. We knew that troublemakers or dissidents were coming to the camp, that' ; s why we had to move, but... And then there was quite a ruckus about the you know whether you, you' ; re loyal to the United States, or you' ; re loyal to Japan. Yeah, there were quite a bit of discussion, we knew. And one of my father' ; s friends, he was single, his wife was back in Japan. She never came to the United States. But, he was here to work. And he was a single man. He was a really good friend of my father' ; s. In fact, he used to be the one to take care of us, you know, so my mother and father could have rest. And he said to my father, " ; I' ; m surprised, you, you know, you didn' ; t sign " ; No" ; you know for the..." ; Because he signed, " ; Yes" ; , he was going to go back to Japan. Well, he had no family here, so he said, " ; No" ; , he' ; s not dis-- he' ; s disloyal. And, actually a lot of them didn' ; t understand, you know? A lot of the Isseis I think, and a lot of them were single men too, so... Oh, I know, I forgot their name, but they had a business right next to my father' ; s, and I was a lonely kid. There wasn' ; t kids my age around. So, I used to go running into their barber shop every day and sit there, and they would pretend to cut my hair. And they were really good friends. They were like you know, my grandparents. Anna Takada: Where was that? Sachiko Kano: In Sacramento. And they, they sent their sons back to Japan. I guess because, I don' ; t know, they didn' ; t have time to help raise them you know? The, the parents were barbers, both of them, in the shop. So, they sent their sons back to Japan and they knew that the sons were in the military army in Japan. So they decided this is the way to go back to Japan after the war. So they signed, you know, Non-loyal. So they stayed in Tule Lake. And that single man I was talking about, he stayed in Tule Lake. We moved on with the church group to Denson, Arkansas. Anna Takada: And before we get into that move, you mentioned that you were ill in camp. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: Were you, what were you doing at the time as a, as a young kid? Were you going to school or... Sachiko Kano: No, just going to start school. Anna Takada: And um-- Sachiko Kano: Well, at that time, they were just setting up the camp health, healthcare you know. Funny things I remember though, people are really resourceful because in, they had a huge laundry room with all these big tubs and everything. Someone was making tofu and selling tofu. Anna Takada: In camp? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: And, so it sounds like there was still a, a church presence in the camp. Sachiko Kano: Oh, yeah. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about that? Sachiko Kano: Oh, I remember the name of the ma-- of the minister. Igarashi, Igarashi. He, as I understand, came from the area of you know, Chiba, Ōhara area I think, you know the area. And he completely changed he was, as they said later, that he was a big drunk. And I don' ; t know, he came here and converted to Christianity, and he went to seminary and he became a minister. Anna Takada: But he was in Tule Lake? Sachiko Kano: And he led the church, you know, in camp. Anna Takada: So was there like an actual church building in Tule Lake? Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t remember. I think they borrowed, you know one of the camp, and converted to a church. There was a huge, I think this was Easter in Tule Lake, Easter Sunday. It was a huge Christian gathering. And I think that' ; s where my mother and father were baptized, as I recall. I was just a kid. So that' ; s a memory I have. Anna Takada: In Tule Lake? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: And so it sounds like there was a sizable congregation there in camp. Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah. Anna Takada: And so then, you said that, kind of with members of the congregation you moved to... Sachiko Kano: Yeah, we moved as a group you know, to these places. Anna Takada: So where, where did you go next? Sachiko Kano: Denson, Arkansas. That' ; s where my mother and father met up with Reverend Oyama. He, he was the pastor of you know, the Devon Church. He was the original pastor of Devon Church. He ministered to two camps, Denson and, I can' ; t remember the twin camp. It was close by. Anna Takada: And, so was this, was this Rohwer? Sachiko Kano: Pardon? Anna Takada: Was the camp Rohwer? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Yeah. It was Rohwer. Yeah. Anna Takada: And so I' ; m thinking, if your family left Tule Lake around the time that they converted it to a maximum security-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah. Anna Takada: So I believe that was in ' ; 43. Sachiko Kano: I guess. Anna Takada: And then, so at that point you would' ; ve been eight years old, you think? Sachiko Kano: Maybe, I don' ; t remember. Anna Takada: Or, no I' ; m s-- yeah. Eight years old. So you were still pretty young when you were moving around. Sachiko Kano: Oh yeah. Anna Takada: --in camp. Sachiko Kano: I remember when they moved us, to camp, to camp. I remember I don' ; t, maybe we were going to Arkansas, I don' ; t remember. Maybe we were going to Heart Mountain. Every time we came near a town, they would stop the trains and make us close all the shades and everything, and we would go you know. I remember that. I thought, " ; Strange, they make us pull the shades" ; you know? Anna Takada: And do you have any specific memories about Rohwer? Sachiko Kano: You mean Denson. Anna Takada: Denson? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Rohwer was the twin, you know, next door. Anna Takada: So the camp was Denson? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: Okay. Sachiko Kano: Rohwer was the next one over. I mentioned that because Reverend Oyama used to take care of the two camps. Anna Takada: Oh, okay. So Denson, that was also called Jerome? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, Jerome. Yeah. I guess that' ; s the official name, huh? Jerome? Anna Takada: I think that' ; s more commonly known. But... Sachiko Kano: I couldn' ; t think of Jerome. Now I know that' ; s Jerome. Yeah. Anna Takada: And were you, so at that point, were you going to school? Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t even remember. Yeah, I think I was. But I don' ; t remember school at all in the camps. I went, I know. But... Anna Takada: What are some of the memories that stick out to you about Arkansas? It must have been different. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. All I remember is hot. And we used to play out all the time. I used to play with this minister' ; s daughter. She was a lot older than me, but we didn' ; t have other people to play with, so. Her name was Ruth. I remember her first name, Ruth. Anna Takada: And do you know how long you were there? Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t know, maybe about a year or so. Then we went to Heart Mountain. The contrast was really something else, because it was so cold in Heart Mountain. That' ; s all I remember about Heart Mountain, was it was really, really cold. Anna Takada: Must have been a shock, especially living in Sacramento-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah, hot, really. Anna Takada: And then from the swamps. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: So, do you know what the reason was for that move to Heart Mountain? Sachiko Kano: They were closing Jerome. Anna Takada: So, okay. And was that another move that you did with the Baptist church? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Yeah. And the group. Anna Takada: And was this the same people that came from Tule Lake as well? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: So a number of... Sachiko Kano: Yeah, came from Sacramento. Majority of the people that my mother and father joined, you know, they were from Sacramento. Anna Takada: Do you know if there were other members that were kind of picked up along the way who joined? So maybe- Sachiko Kano: No. Anna Takada: Okay. So this was mostly Sacramento... Sachiko Kano: People. Anna Takada: And then, do you know how long you were in Heart Mountain? Sachiko Kano: Till practically the end of the war. Because my father was pretty old at that time. And he felt that he couldn' ; t handle things, until they, oh until our friends from Sacramento, they came out real early. They had two sons. Actually four sons. Two sons became ministers in the Presbyterian church. And they were prominent in the Japanese area, not in Sacramento area, but in the Los Angeles area. Their name was Toriumi. And they came to Chicago, so... They urged us to come. Finally, my father said, " ; Well, yeah." ; We had to get out. So we came to Chicago because of them, you know urging us. And we couldn' ; t go back to California anyway. Anna Takada: Why, why was that? Sachiko Kano: The war was still going on, and they still restricted you know people, Japanese people from going back to the West Coast. So we came because of the Toriumi family. They had four sons. Two were, one was younger than my middle sister, and they had three other, other older sons. There was a son named Den Toriumi. He was, actually took care of the, you know parents. He was in Chicago here. Anna Takada: He, he was in Chicago? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. The parents died in Chicago. They were prominent in that Presbyterian church by Wrigley Field. Anna Takada: And do you know why the Toriumi family chose to come to Chicago? As opposed to somewhere else? Sachiko Kano: Like Seabrook? A lot of them went to Seabrook. I don' ; t know, maybe because there were jobs here. She was a sewing, she was my mother' ; s sewing teacher in California, in Sacramento. So that' ; s how you know, my mother and father came to know this Toriumi family. Yeah, we stayed with them, maybe, I don' ; t know, when we first came to Chicago we, we stayed with them on Jackson Boulevard. On the West Side. Anna Takada: Um, do you, would you happen to know the cross street-- Sachiko Kano: No. Anna Takada: Or how far west? Sachiko Kano: I know the son, the youngest son, he was still school age. So he went to Skinner at that time. I understand there' ; s two Skinners, but at that time there was one Skinner. Anna Takada: And would you happen to remember taking the trip from Heart Mountain to Chicago? Sachiko Kano: No. Anna Takada: That' ; s a, that' ; s a long trip. Sachiko Kano: No. Just trains, I know. Anna Takada: And how about when you first arrived to Chicago? Do you remember having any first impressions, or... Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t know, it was big. And my father and mother were trying to get housing. At that time in Chicago, it was hard to get housing. So, I think, as I recall, we lived couple of weeks on the... We couldn' ; t stay with that family you know long time. So, they desperately found housing on the South Side. I think we stayed couple of weeks on the South Side of Chicago, and don' ; t ask me where, you know. And then we moved to the... Somehow my parents found housing on the West Side, Italian neighborhood of Chicago. We lived on Flournoy Street. The building is not there, but we were next to Notre Dame Church. On I think Harrison Street, it is. Yeah. It' ; s still there. Notre Dame Church is still there. The building that we lived in was torn down shortly after we moved to the North, North Side. And my grandparents, they finally came out of camp. And it was only my aunts, my two aunts and my grandfather and my grandmother. And they found housing across, maybe a block across from us in the Italian neighborhood. They lived in a small, two story building owned by a Italian family, you know. Anna Takada: And so was that your mom' ; s family? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: And remind me which camp they were in. Sachiko Kano: Poston. But I don' ; t know which number. I don' ; t remember that. Poston. That whole family' ; s gone now. My aunt just died couple of years ago, you know. She was never married. Anna Takada: And when you, so you mentioned that your parents had a lot of difficulty in finding housing. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. In those days it was really hard to find housing. So we moved to the West Side there, you know. Anna Takada: And do you know why it was such a challenge? Sachiko Kano: Well, they weren' ; t building, you know. It was just difficult at that time. Housing wasn' ; t being built because of the war, and you know. Anna Takada: And, do you have any memories of what these different apartments that you were staying in were like? Sachiko Kano: What do you mean? Anna Takada: Like, can you describe the, the buildings? Your first homes in Chicago? Sachiko Kano: All I remember is it was a stone building on Jackson Street. Jackson Boulevard, I guess, not Street. And then it was just a flat where we lived you know, I think, maybe ' ; 45 to-, maybe five years we lived there. It was a building full of Mexicans. And I happened to... We thought I was to go to the school a block away called McLaren. I don' ; t think it' ; s there anymore. But I was out of district so I had to walk all the way to Jackson. Anna Takada: Was it much farther? Sachiko Kano: Jackson Element... Oh yeah, way further. So, and we, yeah, I went to elementary school there and then I went to Lakeview High School up north, you know. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about what your school was like? Sachiko Kano: You mean Jackson? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Because that was the first school you went to in Chicago. Sachiko Kano: It was-- Yeah. It was, majority were... We were right in the heart of... It was on Carpenter Street, South Carpenter Street. I guess it' ; s still there. But majority was Italian kids and a sprinkling of Mexican people, kids you know. I grew up and my best friend, as I recall, was a Jewish girl. She lived, I don' ; t re--, a very Orthodox Jewish girl, Jewish family. And I was, one of the memories I remember was I went to her house and her mother was throwing all the meat that they were going to eat in buckets of water, washing it. I never saw that before! Yeah they were really kosher, because I would invite her to my house and she wouldn' ; t eat anything because we weren' ; t kosher. But I remember eighth grade when we were you know, we used to be able to go to, I don' ; t know how old would I have been? 12, 13? 12, 13, 14, somewhere around there. Anyway, we would go downtown Grant Park and we' ; d come home around 11 o' ; clock by ourselves you know. Yeah, the parents, our parents would let us go out that late and come home from downtown. Yeah. We didn' ; t have cars or anything, so I remember that. Anna Takada: So how were you getting around? Sachiko Kano: Public transportation, we were getting around. Yeah. Anna Takada: And when you came to Chicago, did you have an okay time making new friends at school and... Sachiko Kano: Yeah, I guess so, but I was unusual, I guess. But they didn' ; t think too much of it, you know. But they never included me in, you know, really participating in groups or, you know, I was a outside man. Anna Takada: And was that, do you think that was because-- Sachiko Kano: But they always threw me in, when there were activities, group activities, they always threw me in with the Mexicans, the Spanish group, not the Italian group, but always the Spanish group. Anna Takada: And was that because of your identity, that... Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t, I have no idea. Probably, you know the Italian group were so intermeshed together that you know... Anna Takada: And it sounds like that they were the majority. Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah. Anna Takada: Did you ever experience any kind of prejudice or discrimination as a kid? Sachiko Kano: Maybe I did, but I didn' ; t realize it. You know, probably discrimination would be because I would always be grouped with the Mexican people, not with the Italian people. Anna Takada: And did you participate in any activities outside of school or, or was-- Sachiko Kano: We just went to... I used to walk all the way to Ashland Boulevard, and I don' ; t remember, maybe it was Harrison. Anyway, I used to have to walk to Sunday school myself. My mother made me go to Sunday school. It was a Methodist church, St. Paul Methodist. It' ; s not there anymore. My uncle, they got married at that church. They' ; re lifelong Methodists, anyway. I don' ; t know why, but my uncle was a Methodist. That part, I don' ; t know why they were Methodist, but they were. Anna Takada: Were you going there only for Sunday school or was your family attending a different church? Sachiko Kano: Sunday school only. My, you know, uncles, they were active at Saint, and my aunts, they were active at St. Paul. Anna Takada: And how about your parents? Sachiko Kano: At that time, the Japanese churches were so far away, they didn' ; t really go. Or if they did, they went to Fourth Presbyterian Church in downtown where they had a Japanese group going. Anna Takada: Do you know anything else about Fourth Presbyterian? Sachiko Kano: No. Anna Takada: Or anything about-- Sachiko Kano: No, that they, they were kind enough to, you know let the Japanese come and have service there, you know. Anna Takada: And how about the other, the Japanese churches that were too far, which churches were those? Sachiko Kano: Reverend Oyama' ; s Church. They were in the middle of, what is that highway, now? The Kennedy, I think? Yeah, they were in the middle there. They were bought out by, you know, so they could build the highway, and they moved to Devon, which was considered oh, so far away, you know, at that time. And, later, we knew that Reverend Kuzuhara, they had a church there. We only found out because we, we lived around the corner from where that Lakeside Church was, then we joined them. Anna Takada: And where was that located? Sachiko Kano: On Sheffield and Wellington. Anna Takada: So that was around, you must have moved-- (intercom speaker in background) Sachiko Kano: Yeah, go ahead. Anna Takada: So you must have moved, then, if that was around the corner? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: If that was by. So-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah, that' ; s not... My building' ; s not, my father' ; s building is not there. In fact, they closed up Wilton at that area. The Illinois Masonic took over part of Wilton Street. But take your phone call or whatever. Anna Takada: Oh, that' ; s okay. That wasn' ; t for me. Sachiko Kano: Oh, okay. Anna Takada: That was just, we were just interrupted, that' ; s all. And, so what was, so you mentioned the building on Wilton. So I guess we can talk about what your parents did when they arrived to Chicago, for work? Sachiko Kano: My father, I don' ; t know what he did for work in the beginning. I don' ; t know if he worked. I think he worked part of the time, you know, Curtiss Candy Company. So many Japanese worked at Curtiss Can-- Candy Company. And they had a farm, too, out maybe, in Arlington Heights. We thought it was country, that a lot of the Japanese lived there and worked there and processed chickens and things like that. You know why I know? My uncle' ; s wife' ; s family were there. They lived, it was practically all Japanese in this one building. And, and they were processing poultry, I think, in the, on the grounds. They lived on the grounds and they were processing, you know? Anna Takada: Outside of Chicago? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, that' ; s suburban area, now, you would consider. But we thought it was out in the really boondocks, you know! Anna Takada: And-- Sachiko Kano: A lot of them worked there. (Intercom speaker in background). Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry. Actually, just one moment. I' ; m going to... Sachiko Kano: Yeah, take it. I' ; m in no hurry. Anna Takada: Okay, so we were talking about work. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: In, in the city. Sachiko Kano: That' ; s where a lot of, not a lot, but Japanese were there processing chickens and then, the women and... you know. My grandfather used to work for, I don' ; t remember the name of the company or anything, they used to separate magazine pages, put them together for magazines, like Look and, you know, Life Magazine. A lot of the old Japanese worked there. I guess they were good with their hands, you know fast, so they used to work. My grandfather would, this was the first time he had ever worked in a factory or anything. He was always on the farm being independent. I have to laugh because he worked there long enough to get some social security, and my grandmother got some, too. She didn' ; t work, but you know, she got his part of his money, I guess, until she died. Anna Takada: And you mentioned your father working at Curtiss Candy Company? Sachiko Kano: I think he did. Anna Takada: Do you know what kind of, what some of the jobs were, there? Sachiko Kano: No, I just, a lot of Japanese worked at Curtiss Candy because of Harry Maeda. Anna Takada: Who was that? Sachiko Kano: Harry Maeda was from Sacramento and, I don' ; t know if he was a lawyer or something, but he worked for Curtiss, recruiting, you know Japanese people from camp, and you know, a lot of the older ones, to work at Curtiss Candy Company. That was a popular place for Japanese to work. Another popular place was called McClurg, they used to, these companies, I guess you' ; re not familiar with, huh? McClurg, Japanese worked there, quite a few. They, they were like, you know, they would pack things up and you know, sell dishes and all kinds of things, knick knacks, everything. And the Japanese workers, I guess, would pack them and fill the orders and everything. And the ladies, you know, the ones that sold, like my mother, they worked at this, I don' ; t know the company' ; s name, everybody referred to them as Sherman Sherman, and they would make children' ; s clothes. The ones that wanted--, as I got the impression, the ones that wanted to work as sewers, they started at Sherman' ; s, you know. Anna Takada: And it sounds like your mother found work, as well? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, she worked at Sherman' ; s. A lot of the Japanese ladies worked there. My aunt, one of my aunts, she worked there, I think, as a finisher, you know. Not doing sewing like my mother, but you know, I guess inspecting and I don' ; t know, cut off threads and things like that. Anna Takada: And you mentioned, in an earlier conversation we' ; ve had, that your father bought some property? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, they bought property, you know the Wilton house they did, three story apartment building. Anna Takada: And which neighborhood is that in? Sachiko Kano: Lakeview. And Lakeside Church was right around the corner from us. Lakeside Church was Sheffield and Wellington. Sheffield and Wellington. Anna Takada: And do you know why your father chose to buy a property up there? Sachiko Kano: Well, Japanese were moving up there and it was a good neighborhood, Lakeview area. Anna Takada: Do you know why, why Japanese Americans were moving to that area, in particular, or why moving, in general? Sachiko Kano: I think it was convenient, too, you know. From, for work and everything, close to downtown. I know once Japanese used to work for, women used to work for RCA. They were near Tribune Tower or something, at one time. My mother' ; s good friend from Sacramento worked there, Mrs. Mendel. Yeah, she w- she was a widow and she had to, her husband died early in Sacramento, and she had, I think, three kids she had, she had to support. And I think at that time, she worked at a cannery in California. She was here, she came here and I know she worked for RCA, you know? Anna Takada: Were there other families that you knew from Sacramento that also came to Chicago? Sachiko Kano: Oh yeah. They were all by Reverend Oyama' ; s church. I don' ; t know why the majority went to Reverend Oyama' ; s church up in, I don' ; t know. But now, you know, I hear, the Japanese congregation is not there anymore. Anna Takada: You mean members or Japanese American members are no longer... Sachiko Kano: Japanese American, they still do English, you know worship. In fact, American man is leading that group, but it' ; s really a mixture, now, you know. Anna Takada: Mhmm, and just going back to your family' ; s move to Lakeview, you had mentioned that was also, you started attending Lakeview High School? Sachiko Kano: Mhmm. I was just outside of the Waller, at that time. Lincoln Park was called Waller High School. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about your personal experiences, you know as a young teenager moving to a different part of the city, going to a new school? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, it was, that population, in, at Lakeview, was mostly, at one time there was Swedish, they had, when we first moved to that area, there were quite a few Swedish businesses on Belmont near where we lived. And then later, I, I guess it changed into a German neighborhood. And then, while I was living there, there used to be quite a few Spanish businesses, but no Spanish living in that area, but they had businesses on Belmont Avenue. Anna Takada: And how about the Japanese American population? You mentioned that-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah, but at Lakeview, I only knew one girl. Her name was... I remember her last name, but I can' ; t remember her first name. Morioka. But if there were Japanese, there were only about, I don' ; t know, I think a lot of the Japanese might have gone to Waller High School, you know, south of us. But at Lakeview, we didn' ; t have hardly any Japanese people there. In fact, not even Oriental people. Anna Takada: And did you, did you know other Japanese Americans your age, maybe, outside of? Sachiko Kano: No, no. Anna Takada: No? Sachiko Kano: No, because there wasn' ; t. Well, our age group, I guess there wasn' ; t a population of kids, you know? Especially in the Japanese group. Like, you know when my sisters grew up, they had clubs and everything going, you know? But not in my generation, no. Anna Takada: So your sisters, were they a part of any Girls clubs? Sachiko Kano: Oh, not Girls Scout, just plain girls group, you know Anna Takada: Were they involved in any of those groups? Sachiko Kano: I gu-- Yeah, I guess they participated quite a bit. I don' ; t know. They, they were older than me, so they had their own group going. I know there was a big bunch of Japanese, you know kids growing up. In fact, my two sisters graduated from, what is that school? McKinley High School. It' ; s famous for having Walt Disney graduate from there. But that was the high school they went to, was McKinley High School. They both graduated from there. Anna Takada: So you, they, you' ; re saying that they were, there were a lot more-- Sachiko Kano: Oh, there were quite a few, yeah. Anna Takada: Japanese Americans their age. Sachiko Kano: Mhmm. I had brought a picture along. The thing is, we never identified anything, but you know there are groups, group pictures, I thought, maybe, you' ; d like to see. Anna Takada: Oh yeah, thank you for bringing those. Sachiko Kano: If I can find it in my purse, I have all kinds of junk in there. (laughs) Anna Takada: So what year did you graduate from Lakeview High School? Sachiko Kano: ' ; 54 or ' ; 5-? No, ' ; 55. ' ; 55. Anna Takada: And did you participate in any activities outside of school? Sachiko Kano: No, they... Well, they were exclusive, you know what I mean? We weren' ; t the kind of people they wanted. Anna Takada: Why is that? Sachiko Kano: I don' ; t know. Because we were rare species or whatever, you know? Anna Takada: And, but you were still going to church. Was that your only outside of school activity? Sachiko Kano: No, I used to, we used go out, you know groups of friends and everything. But the only contact I had with-- Anna Takada: (Sneeze) Excuse me. Sachiko Kano: Yeah, only contact I had with Japanese is church. That' ; s the only contact I ever had with a group. You know, no Japanese around. Anna Takada: And I meant to ask you earlier-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: But growing up, were you speaking Japanese with your parents? Sachiko Kano: I spoke Japanese until I went to preschool or kindergarten in Sacramento. Anna Takada: And, when you, by the time you moved to Chicago, were you still speaking Japanese? Sachiko Kano: We would speak English, and my mother and father would speak Japanese interspersed with English, you know how it goes. Anna Takada: And, in these, these early days of moving to Chicago, you' ; ve mentioned there was you know, a Japanese American community here. There were people working at Curtiss Candy Company and all of these different places, and, and some of the churches you' ; ve mentioned. Were there, do you remember any, any other areas where there were maybe a number of Japanese American families living? Or, you know where there-- Sachiko Kano: They started coming, I guess, from the South side. They, there was a sizable Japanese community. In fact, they had a Christian church, you know, all Japanese, on the South side. I don' ; t remember the name of the church. And then that broke up when the minister went back to California. But I don' ; t know, we' ; ve always been scattered around. You know, pockets here, pockets there, you know? Anna Takada: Do you remember any other of these pockets, like you say, in the other areas in the city? Sachiko Kano: Well eventually, I don' ; t know, a lot of them migrated into the Lakeview area, and then after that some went to Uptown like my aunts when they, like my aunt when she first got married, they moved in fact near Aragon? What was the street? Lawrence and... up the street from Aragon. I don' ; t remember-- Anna Takada: Bryn Mawr? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Something like that. There were Japanese there before people went into Edgewater. I think the Japanese from Lakeview moved into the Edgewater area, you know, where there' ; s that North Shore, North Shore Church where I belonged to. Anna Takada: And in these areas, were there businesses or restaurants, or anything like that, that you remember? Grocery stores? Sachiko Kano: All I remember is that you know, in the Lakeview, edge of Lakeview, I would call it edge, but near Wrigley Field, you know that, I can' ; t think of the name of the place. Anna Takada: Toguri? Sachiko Kano: Yeah Toguri, but no, just a plain grocery store. It was so popular. I can' ; t think of the name. Anna Takada: Star Market? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, Star Market. Yeah. We used to go there all the time and my father used to know the young men that you know, ran the place, owned the place. They were from Sacramento. Anna Takada: Do you recall their name? Sachiko Kano: I think one of them was Hatanaga? Anna Takada: And- Sachiko Kano: You know why I know that name? Because I guess they lived in Evanston because my son went to high school with the Hatanaga boy. Anna Takada: Do you-- And so did your family go there often for groceries? Sachiko Kano: Oh yeah. When we lived in that area, yeah. Anna Takada: What, what was, what did they sell? Or, or can you describe the-- Sachiko Kano: Everything. Anything Japanese. I mean, grocery wise, they were the most popular, you know. There was York, that' ; s a good friend of my, you know, grandfather' ; s family, York. And I don' ; t remember the other ones, but York was in business for a long time. Anna Takada: That was another... Sachiko Kano: Japanese store. Anna Takada: And do you remember where that was located? Sachiko Kano: Originally it was around Division Street, you know, around Clark and Division. Somewhere around there. It was run by a sister and brother. And then everybody was happy that we had Star Market, you know? That, that was really popular. Anna Takada: Could you-- This is kind of a strange question, but would you be able to describe what Star Market looked like? Or was it a large grocery store? Sachiko Kano: No, it wasn' ; t that large, but they had everything Japanese you know you would want. When we, we, when you wanted to, like my mother always used to cook you know, New Year' ; s everything, you know, traditional. They went to Star Market you know? Or else, before Star Market, they used to have York deliver stuff, you know. Anna Takada: And so how long was your family in Lakeview? Sachiko Kano: My, ' ; 6-, 196-... My mother died in 1965, so maybe 6-- I think ' ; 66 or ' ; 68 or something like that. Anna Takada: And where did you move to? Sachiko Kano: Oh, we were the first ones to move to Evanston. I was married by then and I had three kids by then. So... Anna Takada: Well, where in Evanston? Sachiko Kano: Still where I live, Northwest Evanston. Anna Takada: And so what year were you married? Sachiko Kano: ' ; 5-- Let' ; s see, ' ; 5-, ' ; 58, yeah. Anna Takada: Where did you meet your husband? Sachiko Kano: In school. Anna Takada: College, or...? Sachiko Kano: Yeah, college, mhmm. Anna Takada: And where did you go to college? Sachiko Kano: Elmhurst, that' ; s the, as far as I could get from out of the house. My mother wouldn' ; t let me go further than that. She said that' ; s too far away. Anna Takada: And-- Sachiko Kano: He' ; s from the old country. He was a student there. Anna Takada: In Elmhurst? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: And what did you study? Sachiko Kano: Sociology. Anna Takada: Was there anything in particular that made you interested in sociology or how did you... Sachiko Kano: Well, there was a professor that really, you know, was really good. In fact, he was, he was at the college for years and years and years. And he would tell us stories about when they accepted Japanese students at Elmhurst, they were afraid that something would happen to the Japanese students. So since he was Dean of the college at that time, he would accompany the Japanese students to go into downtown Elmhurst so nothing would happen to them. Anna Takada: So it sounds like he had an, an impact on you and what you wanted to study. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Yeah. Sociology and Religion. Anna Takada: And another thing I wanted to ask about was, you mentioned that a, a number of people in Chicago, or, or some people moved back to California or the West Coast. Sachiko Kano: A wholesale bunch. At one time we had, they say over 20,000 in population. And when it was permissible for Japanese to go back to California, a lot of them went back. In fact, my sister married a man and he went back to California. They lived in Gardena area. My oldest sister, they lived in the Gardena area because his family went back to California. They moved back. Anna Takada: Do you know why your family chose to stay in Chicago? Sachiko Kano: Because my uncles didn' ; t-- My mother, I know she was, she looked meek and everything, but she was really the strong person in the family and she decided we' ; re gonna stay here because my uncles didn' ; t want to go back to California. They didn' ; t want to do any more farm work. ' ; Cause it was hard work and besides my grandfather, he always went, disappeared, went fishing or just did something else, you know, so they would be responsible for the work. So they didn' ; t want to go back to Sacramento area. My grandfather was the only one that abandoned land. I mean the land that he had, you know? The others all went back you know? In fact, one of the Sato-- Original ones that bought the land, he donated his land, most of his land to create a Baptist church in Sacramento. It' ; s now Sacramento town, it' ; s not country anymore. So yeah, the Sato family had nine children a piece. Anna Takada: Wow. So we have a few minutes left. One thing I would want, I want to ask is, when you think about the Japanese American community from those early resettlement days and, and you think about it now, what do you think are some of the... what has changed or how would you describe them? How would you compare them, I guess? Sachiko Kano: What do you mean? Anna Takada: Like um... Sachiko Kano: The Isseis to present, right? Anna Takada: No, I guess I mean more like the population of Japanese Americans in Chicago kind of in the ' ; 40s, you know, how did that look compared to today? Sachiko Kano: There is no Japanese community now. When people ask " ; What are you?" ; I get mad so I say, " ; I' ; m made in the USA." ; But then later I' ; ll say I' ; m Japanese and they' ; re so surprised. " ; Japanese?" ; Or like I don' ; t know antiquity or something. People used to think of Japanese, but now they don' ; t. We' ; ve, we' ; re a disappearing, you know, ethnic group. People don' ; t think about Japanese anymore. Like, you know you say-- the thing that really comes right into their minds when they ask you what you are. They say, " ; Are you Chinese? Are you Korean?" ; You know? Anna Takada: Do you think that' ; s-- Sachiko Kano: But, never comes into their mind, that Japanese. Anna Takada: But you think, so it sounds like you' ; re saying that visibility maybe is a little bit different, like back then people-- Sachiko Kano: Yeah, yeah. They would mention Japanese, but now not a word, you know? And they' ; re so surprised when you say Japanese. Why are they so-- I know in my family, the only one married to a nihonjin, Japanese, is my niece in California. All the rest, my cousins and my children are all married to, you know, white people, mostly English and German. Anna Takada: And what is the ethnicity of your husband? Sachiko Kano: Japanese. Well, he' ; s, he was the only one here so... Of his family, so... Anna Takada: And was he in camp as well or...? Sachiko Kano: No, no. Anna Takada: He was here before the war? Sachiko Kano: Yeah. No, after the war, way after. He came here for schooling. Anna Takada: From where? Sachiko Kano: Japan. Anna Takada: Okay. Sachiko Kano: So we are a disappearing group. So my son said, " ; You should, you should tell your story!" ; His wife is, I think, English and German. And I' ; ve talked to her aunt and they said they were part of Amish group. She, the family, her mother' ; s side is based in Iowa, you know, or the Amish area. And the father' ; s side is Illinois. Anna Takada: And-- Sachiko Kano: She was, until last year, she was a one star general in the Air Force. She' ; s a nurse, you know? Anna Takada: Well we have time for... Well we should be wrapping up. Sachiko Kano: Yeah. Anna Takada: I... Sachiko Kano: Time for what? (laughs) Anna Takada: (laughs) Before we wrap up our conversation, do you think that there' ; s, there are any ways that your childhood experience of the war and going to camp and then moving to Chicago, in what ways, if any, has that kind of shaped who you are as a person or, or impacted your life? Sachiko Kano: The only world I always knew was white world, not Japanese world, you know? Once in a while it would come when you have festivals or something like that, but not, you know, we' ; ve always lived in the white world. Always my friends and my close friends are all white people. So, I don' ; t-- maybe if we stayed in Sacramento area, we would have more of a impact of, you know, oriental culture or Japanese culture. But here, you know, that has been wiped out. The only group was this service committee. My father always supported the service committee, but you know, there aren' ; t many groups to join. I, I joined the Baptist church group at you know, North Shore because my husband wanted to join the Japanese speaking group and I just went along with him to make sure that this was the group that he would like to stay with, you know? And they adopted me. Reverend Nambu said, after I attended a year, " ; I think you should join our church." ; I said, " ; Okay." ; Anna Takada: And one thing I like to ask before closing with people is if you could leave any kind of message or legacy behind for your kids and maybe grandkids, what kind of thing would you want to leave with them or help them know? Sachiko Kano: I would like to ask that they explore more of the Japanese heritage that they have. My granddaughter, the 18 year old, she' ; s very interested, you know? But we live in an area that' ; s so remote from you know, Japanese culture mostly up where they live. They live in Wilmette and the high school that she went to is New Trier. There' ; s hardly any Japanese there. And she' ; s been in contact with, lot of Taiwanese kids and mostly Taiwanese kids, you know. Anna Takada: Yeah. And is there anything else that you would like to add or that I might have missed in this conversation? Sachiko Kano: No. I don' ; t know if I gave you information or not, but, thanks. Anna Takada: Well thank you so much again for coming in and taking the time to speak with me. Sachiko Kano: Yeah, I hope it does some good, you know. Anna Takada: Thank you. Sachiko Kano: Yeah b-- Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KanoSachiko20180724.xml KanoSachiko20180724.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
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Kano, Sachiko (7/24/2018)
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Sachiko Kano, a nisei born in Sacramento, CA in 1935, shares childhood memories of FBI raids and pervasive fear in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. She describes her family dressing in their best clothes to report to the Sacramento Assembly Center, and recounts her family's movements between incarceration sites at Tule Lake, Denson/Jerome, and Heart Mountain along with other members of their church group. Sachiko recalls her parents' decision to resettle in Chicago at the urging of some church friends who had already left camp and established themselves in the city. She describes her experiences attending school in a West Side, predominantly Italian American neighborhood before moving to the Lakeview neighborhood on the North Side during high school and eventually to Evanston after she married. She reflects upon her life lived in a white world, and wonders if her Japanese heritage might have played a bigger role if her family had been able to stay in Sacramento.
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2018-07-24
Format
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
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75b20bc24f90543fab43c7a6db1ef2f5
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kawaguchi, Kayoko (Kay)
Interview Keyword
Shin-Issei
Sansei
Terminal Island
Wakayama
Osaka
Rohwer
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Chicago Shimpo
Japanese American Service Committee
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/2/2021 Kawaguchi, Kayoko (6/2/2021) 1:05:12 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Shin-Issei Sansei Terminal Island Wakayama Osaka Rohwer Edgewater Beach Hotel Chicago Shimpo Japanese American Service Committee Kawaguchi, Kayoko (Kay) Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|22(9)|41(11)|60(13)|79(2)|95(1)|108(13)|116(1)|123(10)|134(3)|143(6)|152(12)|165(7)|177(9)|187(9)|201(5)|219(11)|227(4)|234(3)|247(10)|260(16)|266(13)|281(10)|307(5)|321(7)|331(6)|341(14)|349(4)|368(4)|376(1)|384(2)|397(5)|407(14)|415(12)|432(5)|445(1)|456(11)|468(9)|477(10)|484(5)|499(6)|508(11)|516(6)|539(11)|550(13)|574(14)|584(5)|595(2)|601(8)|616(14)|625(3)|634(7)|641(4)|648(5)|658(2)|669(5)|679(10)|689(6)|697(3)|708(9)|719(2)|727(3)|733(2)|743(6)|754(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/563747629/5ed5d00363 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/563747629?h=5ed5d00363" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kay Kawaguchi, a shin-issei/sansei, describes the pre-war immigration journeys of her family and her husband's family, her husband's experiences while incarerated at Rohwer, and her own experiences in Japan during and after WWII. She also recalls her arrival in the U.S. in 1970 on a temporary visa and the circumstances that led to her eventual marriage and permanent residence in Chicago. A long-time employee at the Chicago Shimpo and the Japanese American Service Committee, she reflects on her community-centered work and shares her hopes for the future. Emma Lincoln (EL): Today is June 2nd, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee Building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Kay Kawaguchi. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Thank you for joining us today. Kay Kawaguchi (KK): You' ; re welcome. EL: To get us started, could you please state your full name for me? KK: Kayoko Kawaguchi. EL: Okay, and what is your year of birth? KK: 1942. EL: And where were you born? KK: Osaka, Japan. EL: And is that also where you grew up? KK: Uhh, partially. I went to Wakayama, my mother' ; s hometown, because of the war and came back to Osaka again, so yeah, mostly. EL: And were your parents and grandparents also born and raised in Osaka or Wakayama? KK: My father' ; s side, and my mother' ; s side is Wakayama. EL: And when people ask what generation are you, how do you answer? KK: Shin-Issei. EL: Okay, and when did you come to the U.S. yourself? KK: 1970. EL: Okay, and who were the first people in your family to come to the U.S.? KK: My grandparents is Issei, so actually I' ; m a Issei, Shin-Issei, but it skipped. Because my mother is Japanese, because she was born in Japan, and my grandparents was born in Wakayama and immigrated to the U.S. And later, before the war started, they went back to Japan. My two uncles was born in U.S. so they are American citizens. EL: So your maternal grandparents immigrated, do you know approximately when that was? KK: I don' ; t exactly know. EL: Maybe early, early 20th century? Maybe? KK: Right. EL: And had some children in the U.S., and then returned to Japan, and then your mother was born in Japan, right? KK: Ah no, it was real funny story. My grandmother had 5 children, first 3 was the girls. Every time she was--got pregnant, she went back to Japan, and had the baby in Japan. Then left with the grand--her parents, and came back to U.S., that she did it for 3 times. Then last 2 was the boy, and I guess she was tired, going back and forth so, she had 2 boys in U.S. EL: I see. That' ; s very interesting that she was able to go back and forth-- KK: That' ; s right-- EL: --between the U.S. and Japan multiple times. So do you know much about what your grandparent' ; s life was like, on the West Coast? KK: Not much, but I think my grandfather was a fisherman in Terminal Island, and my grandmother was working at the cannery at that time, that' ; s only I know. EL: And were they still alive when you were born? KK: Yes. EL: When your family returned to Japan before you were born, do you know wh--why they chose to move back? KK: Oh that--that was original plan, well they immigrate here, they work hard, save money, and going back to Japan, and live in Japan. EL: I see. KK: But my um--one of the uncle, the oldest son returned to U.S., before war started, so he' ; s the one called, I don' ; t know, kibei? So he' ; s only one came back, then war started. EL: Okay, so when the war started, that uncle, was he living in the exclusion zone? Was he sent to a camp? KK: No, he was drafted after the war started, he was living with the, his uncle and cousins the time, then war started and he was drafted. And younger brother in Japan was also drafted in Japanese army. EL: Did that cause pain for your family? KK: Probably, but I was too young, so I don' ; t remember. But I know the grandmother was always worried about both side. EL: Right. So I' ; m going to shift gears a little bit, and talk about your husband' ; s family. And can you tell me a little, whatever you know, about your husband' ; s family' ; s experience during World War II? KK: My father-in-law, I never met him before I married, he passed away, but he was born in Niigata, Japan, and somehow moved to Wakayama, and lived there. And one day I guess he decided to come to the U.S. when we young and he, I think it was California, in San Francisco area? And he was doing school boy and going to school and working for the family, American family. And their family was, those days, governor or mayor' ; s brother' ; s house? And when he grew up, um--I think that master told him " ; You better get married" ; . So he wants to marry some Japanese woman so went back to Japan and married to the, my husband' ; s mother, and came back. In that time, that' ; s the way before the war started, and my husband' ; s mother and father was 22 years different in age--almost like father and daughter. But I guess it' ; s everything went well, then one day young...his friend, his friend wants to rent farm, to start farming. But he was not Japanese--I mean American, so he couldn' ; t rent a place. Then my husband' ; s father was uh, " ; OK, I think I can do that for you" ; so he went to the master and ask for it, and this one is I just hear, I don' ; t know if it' ; s truth or not. Master wrote the letter to the officials, " ; this boy was born in U.S. and I know his parents was. He grow up here and went back to Japan, so he was American citizen" ; , and he got the paper and also um he can help the friend to rent the farm. But after that, we found out it was not true, because he had Japanese passport. My husband asked me one day, " ; Why did my father have a Japanese passport when he was a U.S. citizen?" ; then I found out that, that wasn' ; t true. Then-- EL: So, the whole, the whole time your husband thought that his father had been a U.S. citizen, and then how old was he when that passport was discovered? How was your husband when the passport was discovered and he learned his father was not a U.S. citizen? KK: That passport was, he is in, if it' ; s not mistake, probably he was late 20s, so um his real age was different. EL: So what happened to your husband' ; s family then? When the war started? KK: So living, my husband was born in, um, whoops, Downey, California. And I think he went to school there, and grammar school. So, so he have uh, three sisters, and he was the last one and it was boy, so father was really happy. Then when he was seven-years-old, the war started. No wait, maybe the war started...10 I think went in camp, and there was, Rohwer, Arkansas. The whole family went in there, so my sister-in-law went to high school in that camp. This maybe half year or one year before war ended, they came, got out the camp, went to Michigan. They had a farming job, they' ; re looking for the season labor, so the whole family went there. EL: I see, did they talk much about the camp experience when you met them? KK: Mmm, a little bit. But my husband had some good time when he was young, some older people there it' ; s like uh, maybe teenager, or 17-18 years old friend, the couple people had a duty there going to a town once a week or something to pick up a mail in the post office and bring to the camp. So he wants to go out the camp, I mean city. Then friend said, " ; You wanna go?" ; , he says " ; Yes" ; . They put him into the bag, the mail bag, tied the top, put him in a car, and drove out the gate and went to pick up a mail and peek a little bit, and outside the town and again he' ; s in the bag and come back to the camp. [Laughs] EL: And he didn' ; t get caught? KK: Didn' ; t get caught. [smiles] EL: Having grown up in Japan yourself and not having come to the U.S. until much later after the war, were you aware of the history of incarceration of Japanese Americans? KK: I heard about it but I never thought that bad, because in Japan a lot of people had difficult time those days. No meal. But those days I hear that they had enough meal. Well I don' ; t know the truth or not but that' ; s what I hear it. And American government took care of them, but in Japan it' ; s all country but most of people they have enough to eat and they always have to escape from the bombing. So there was a hard time. EL: You were very young during the war. Do you, do you have clear memories of the hardships that you experienced during the war? KK: Mmm, my father went to the war, drafted. So my mother and myself went to mother' ; s hometown it' ; s a village rural area and lived there with a grandmother. And I was small, and those village, didn' ; t have much childrens because young man is all went to the war, and not many young, small, kids there. So I walk around the neighbors, and I always get treat, they was so happy, and I didn' ; t have much memory of that hard time. EL: How about during the occupation period? KK: That time, I was back to Osaka. Then father came back from the war, and we lost the house and everything else. So we rent the friend' ; s house or whatever. Even that, they probably, adult had hard time, all the mothers and other people. But I don' ; t have much memory of that. And few year later, my uncle in Japan, contact to us, " ; War is ended" ; so he sent us, once a month? Maybe every other month? Small package from Japan. I was looking forward to it. [Smiles] There' ; s lot of candies in there. [laughs] EL: He was sending from Japan or from the U.S. to Japan? KK: From U.S. to Japan. EL: So this is your uncle who stayed in the U.S. and served in the U.S. military. Okay, what was in those packages? KK: Packages is candies, coffee, and I remember the Crisco? And the funny thing is uncle sent to grandmother, to his mother, he said, " ; What you want?" ; well we didn' ; t have much things here, but food didn' ; t taste good. So what he sent to her is little packages of Aji-no-moto. [laughs] It' ; s really funny in U.S. they had Aji-no-moto! [laughs] EL: It' ; s a Japanese product! KK: It is! EL: So your, your uncle living in the U.S. was sending a Japanese product from the U.S. back to Japan. KK: Yeah, just Aji-no-moto, all other stuff is-- EL: Was American? KK: Mhmm, and that, I remember the spam, the can of spam he sent us. That was a treat for me. It' ; s meat, which usually we don' ; t eat much. But I had uh fish, a lot of fish, living in, near the ocean in Wakayama, but that--and Lipton' ; s chicken noodle soup, in the dry package? That I loved, those days. And because other, other families don' ; t have those things, so when every time package come, mother and grandma cut up the paper, and put the candy in so many different papers and wrap up, and they give to the neighbor' ; s kid. So I was watching this, is that my candy gonna be here, left, when it' ; s end of the day? I would worry about it! And it' ; s about, I was uh three, four, four years old? But I said, we didn' ; t have much rice but we had plenty of seafood. And one things when I think about now was that actually, after the war ended, no more bombing, fishermen went out to the ocean, and they found a lot of lobsters there living under the, you know ocean. And they caught a lot! So that was, they provided us this, replace the rice, the big lobster in our house, and we can' ; t eat it up right away, so grandmother wrap up the lobster in the cloth, and keep ' ; em in under the tatami, the ground. They live in there for a while, there' ; s no refrigerations, and sleep, at night time, I hear the noise, ' ; gigigigi' ; , it' ; s you know the, they rubbing their, you know? Body? There was uh--big lobster, they called it ise-ebi in Japan, delicious. And after I grew up, I didn' ; t have much chance to eat that! So expensive! [laughs] EL: So you were rice poor but lobster rich at that time. KK: Mhmm! [laughs] EL: I' ; m curious, and maybe, maybe you don' ; t know because you were a child then, but during the war especially, but also after the war, were your grandparents able to stay in communication with their one son who was serving in the U.S. military? KK: Yes, that letter they sent back and forth, yeah. EL: Skipping forward a little bit, to the point in your life where you left Japan and came to the U.S., and what year was that in again? KK: Excuse me, what was that? EL: What year was that in? KK: Oh I came here in 1970, but before that when I was a 4th grader, my grandpar--, --mother, --father, grandfather, passed away. And grandma and one of the uncle discharged from the Japanese military, he said I' ; m a American citizen, I' ; m taking my mother to, back to U.S. And brother is there, so he applied for that, and it took a few years because he went to the war in Japanese military, they didn' ; t okay right away. And um, when they went back to U.S., I went to the Kobe, the harbor, the big ship was there, called the President Wilson, the huge boat those days to me. And they went back to Japa--I mean U.S. with that boat. And since that, I was always thinking about, if I am going to U.S. someday, I want to go with that boat. So, when I was 28, the dream come true. Those days, already the airplane was available, but I want to get on that boat, and I found out the boat is almost end of the duty, last couple trip and going to uh military or something. So I got on and that time, they says, " ; There' ; s no space left for you" ; but then, they call me and they say " ; One cancellation, you want to go?" ; I says " ; Yes" ; . So I got on there. EL: So you chose to go on a boat even though you could have gone on an airplane? KK: Right. EL: And at that time there was your one uncle who had been in the U.S. the whole time, and the-and also the uncle and your grandmother who had already left Japan and went back to the U.S. KK: Grandmother that time she went back to Japan, she said " ; I' ; m too old, live in America" ; . And I think this country is for the young people, so she came back by herself and end her life in Japan. EL: I see. KK: After I came to here. But when I want to go, she said " ; You may and you have to go ' ; cause you' ; re young, you should experience the U.S." ; EL: So she encouraged you to go. KK: Yes. EL: Did you go by yourself? KK: Here? EL: Yeah, on that boat. KK: Yes. EL: Were you excited? KK: In a way, and also a little bit afraid of it, going to the new place. That' ; s another reason I took a boat. That' ; s 14 days in the ocean with other people, and many of them Americans. So I said, " ; Oh maybe I get used to a little bit" ; so... EL: That was very wise for you at age 20 to recognize you would need that slower transition. KK: Well, no I am 28 at that time. [laughs] EL: 28, still very wise! KK: Yeah. [smiles] EL: Do you remember the boat ride? KK: Mhmm, yes. That time, yes Yokohama. Then um, to the Hawaii is 10 days and from Hawaii to San Francisco was 4 days. And all the--really smooth trip, that crossing oceans. And Hawaii we get off for one day, and they had a, like a tour, but also you can go your own. And I think it was ju--partially took a tour, and first time start walking ground, it little bit funny because it' ; s 10 days in a boat you know move you know? But it was hot too and dry. And uh, I remember the first time I had a really, really, tasty pineapple. The place they, you know demonstration and cut up and serving to the people and um first time I found out you have to pay tax every time you buy something. And also, if it' ; s a restaurant you gotta give them a tip, which in Japan I never give to them, so it was real funny st--. " ; Oh maybe I wonder I have enough money for end of the trip?" ; . EL: How had you saved up enough money for your, your boat fare? KK: After high school I graduate, I start working, I don' ; t know what is college too but I think about it and I went company a small company I was start working there. And I also did a little bit for invest money. Then at night time I went to school, it' ; s not the regular college but for writing poems and novels, but my job got really busy and I have to give up because I couldn' ; t keep my eye open anymore! [laughs] So I quit the school, and time being I save money. EL: So when you arrived in the U.S., what was your intent? Were you planning to stay long term? KK: No, I just wanna see--meet every relative in the U.S. Because I have cousins and uncles. And cousin is previously visit to Japan once before I leave there so I knew them. Then um so I have a relative in California, L.A. and San Jose and uhh some in Chicago. So I says I would like to have one year to experience living there and meet the relatives. But they only give me 6 months. 6 months? It' ; s okay. So I came here and I want to do something, so, but, language is barrier. So I was taking a little class in Japan for flower arrangement, in Western style. And that school have a connection in Chicago' ; s flower arrangement school, so I registered for that, and they have some special class for us in Japanese. So I just did that, and that was a good thing because I paid in Japanese yen to tuitions, so I don' ; t have to spend my precious dollars. Only 1000 dollar I can have it, exchanged in those days. So I went to school a little bit in Japan and came here, and that was Chicago, so before the school start in September, I stay with my two uncles, one in San Jose and one in L.A. EL: When you say they only gave you 6 months, do you mean the government, the U.S. government, only gave you a 6 month visa? KK: That' ; s right, yes, passport, visa. EL: And you came to Chicago because of this connection between your flower arrangement school in Japan and-- KK: And my relatives. EL: --And the school here and your relatives here. KK: It was funny, day before the school start, my cousin took me to downtown, there was a school there, aba--uh Wabash. And I have to get off at the Van Buren to go into the school. And my cousin told me you get on, I think she told me " ; Blue" ; . And it' ; s " ; B" ; , don' ; t get on " ; A" ; , it' ; s a blue train and B. " ; Okay" ; . And I was, next day I was waiting in the station, blue train it never come, it' ; s all greens. And I look at the sign, and I saw that sign background was blue, and that " ; B" ; and I says " ; OH, that was--I was waiting for about 30 minutes in the station!" ; . [laughs] So I get on there and I was keep my ear open and looking outside, I will miss the station, and I didn' ; t know what the conductor saying, announcing. And I look at conductor and he was chewing gum and saying the same time. I says, " ; No wonder I can' ; t hear well because he chewing gum" ; . Then, after that he was stopped chewing gum still don' ; t--I don' ; t understand what he saying! [laughs] So, and anyway I catched the station and got off, then next day, same thing, but I don' ; t want to miss it because announce their way, it' ; s, they don' ; t say " ; next is where" ; and " ; Belmont, next" ; . So next always comes at end of it. So when said next, that means I missed the top, the beginning, the name of a station. So I count the station next day, and every time stop, 1, 2, 3! [laughs] EL: So that was how you figured out not to miss your station. KK: That' ; s right, so my ear was not used to English, and the pronunciation is different too. EL: Did you speak any English before you came here? KK: Not much, " ; hello" ; ," ; how are you?" ; , and " ; thank you" ; , and " ; what is this" ; , few words. But I live with my cousin' ; s house, and my cousins speak little Japanese, with most English, my aunt and uncle speak Japanese fully, so that was help. But the flower arrangement school, th--it--cousin took me to one day before, and its, " ; Oh good, because it' ; s full of students, all Japanese, okay I can go with them, maybe I don' ; t understand, but I can ask them." ; The day the school start, I went there, I am the only one Japanese. So I ask the secretary, " ; What happened to the other Japanese girls?" ; And she said, " ; Oh, they finished the course, and they went back to Japan." ; [laughs] That was the last day I went there, and I was only one. But most bo--arrangement things by hand, so I catch up. EL: So if your original intent was to stay for a year, but you were limited to six months by your visa, what changed? KK: Umm, I was, after the school training was, 4 weeks? When I finished that, the secretary told me, " ; One of the flower shops need of somebody help, so if you want to train, working there as a trainee, you can go there" ; . I said, " ; Okay, I learned something, so school is maybe not enough for it" ; , so I said okay, and also downtown. Right across the street, of--I mean a river of the merchandise mart, a small shop, I went there, and start working. Somehow, boss likes me. And of course the Japanese they work hard. And then um, I can' ; t get salary because I' ; m training, but he bought me lunch, and he gave me the bus fare. And so I was working, sometimes he pick me up too, and I was working there, and pretty soon I have to go back to Japan because my visa expired. Boss says, " ; Well, I need you here" ; . Cheap labor right? [laughs] Lunch and car fare! So he said, " ; My son is a lawyer so let me see if he could do something about it." ; Then, few weeks, just few weeks, he extended, another one year. EL: What was that boss' ; name? KK: Mike Kaplan. He passed away. EL: And what was the name of his flower shop? KK: ' ; Mike' ; s Floral Shop' ; . [smiles] EL: So, so Mike Kaplan' ; s son helped you extend your visa by another year, and then after that did you go back to Japan, or did you stay? KK: No, in time--in between I met my husband, and married. EL: And how did you meet your husband? KK: He was my auntie and uncle' ; s sister-in-law' ; s friend. They were in same camp, in Rohwer. And they was talking about it and I didn' ; t know. They said " ; One boy is out from camp in Chicago here, but he still single yet." ; EL: So they introduced you? KK: Mhmm, and he came to my, my uncle' ; s house, and the first time I met him, the first things he asked me, he tried to speak in Japanese, so he said, " ; Sakana suki desu ka?" ; [laughs] " ; Do you like fish?" ; I says, " ; The fish to eat, or fish in general?" ; I didn' ; t know his hobby was tropical fish and aquariums, so he explained to me, he says " ; I don' ; t know I like it or not, I never think about it" ; but I says " ; maybe" ; . [laughs] EL: What was your first impression of him? KK: Uhh, you know, the age difference was about 10 years, I know he was 10 year older than me, said " ; oh, a little bit too old for me" ; but then he looks young, and I didn' ; t make any decision, but I, and he' ; s nice, nice guy, seems honest. He look a little bit shy, but I start going date. EL: What kind of places did you go on your dates? KK: It was funny too, he said " ; You wanna go miniature golf?" ; He took me to golf, miniature golf course, and he drove all over, couldn' ; t find the place and he say, " ; I knew that was here, what happened to it?!" ; " ; You came before?" ; he says, " ; Yes!" ; " ; How long ago?" ; " ; 10 years" ; . I says " ; 10 years?! Maybe they are out of business or moved to some place!" ; [laughs] So that, you could tell what kind of, you know, person he is. And we went to Michigan for tulip festival, Wisconsin Dells, something like that. But mostly, just drive around here. EL: And at what point did you get married? KK: Between, I lost my grandmother. She passed away in Japan. I feel like I want to go back to Japan. Then, my mother told me, " ; Remember Grandma want you to live in the U.S., and she passed away already, and we finished the funeral, if you come back here maybe you cannot go back." ; So I decided here in that time, and he proposed me before, I says I wasn' ; t really ready, but that time I says, I decided. And I wasn' ; t young either, I was 29 already, so that' ; s what happened. [laughs] EL: And what was your early married life like? Where did you live? KK: Um, one things my husband was worried about, he asked me before I married, " ; If we marry, can' ; t you live with my mother?" ; That' ; s his mother, so my mother-in-law, and in a way, in Japan, usually that happens when husband is oldest son or something. So I says, " ; I don' ; t know why he is asking me, yeah, okay." ; And I think he met a couple other girls before me, they both said no, so he couldn' ; t get married! [laughs] So that' ; s what--we lived with his mother, and second floor, my sister-in-law' ; s living there with family, that' ; s what my American life actually started there. And I was sta--still working at the flower shop, and soon I got permanent visa. EL: How much longer did you continue to work at the flower shop? KK: Not too long full time, because year after that I got pregnant, I was kinda sick. But I was still going there until I had baby, or maybe a couple months before, I quit. But often the boss called me, and he wants to--you know help, on a holiday or something. EL: And where was your husband working during that time? KK: That time, he was working at a Medical, this company called Medical Chemical? They make medication for the government. EL: Do you happen to know, when he came out of camp, and his whole family came out of camp, they went to Michigan first farming, and came to Chicago, how did he go about finding employment? KK: In Michigan, he was still going high school that time. After graduated, his oldest sister found job in Chicago, she came by herself, start working, and telling the parents, " ; Why don' ; t you come to Chicago, there' ; s a lot of, uh you know, jobs?" ; and over there in winter time, no jobs. So they were working at restaurants in the Michigan, South Haven. So the whole family moved to Chicago. And that time, my husband went to school for two years with accounting or something, which he never finished it, he didn' ; t like the numbers. [laughs] Anyway, that was uh--no wait a minute, that' ; s I' ; m sorry, that' ; s mistake. He came here and he work different places, then he got drafted. Went to war, two years, came back, that time still the mother and father, and sister was living in the apartment. Then he decided, talked to father, " ; Let' ; s buy the apartment." ; And he was sending the money to parents from the military. He never went overseas, was saving money for the down payment. And came back, and Papa put some money in too, and bought apartment. Only two flat, but that' ; s enough for living themselves, and one of the sister' ; s and family. So that time, mother and father was working at the hotel. EL: Do you know which-- EL: Okay, I think we were talking about your husband' ; s family, and they moved from Michigan to Chicago and bought a two flat, and your in-laws were working at a hotel. KK: That' ; s right. EL: Which hotel was that? KK: Edgewater. EL: And I know your father-in-law passed away before you became part of the family, but did you ever hear your mother-in-law talk about that experience? KK: That working? EL: Working at the hotel? KK: Yeah I think she was um, maid, cleaning the room and the sheets and things. She didn' ; t say much about it, but um my husband every day drop her off at the hotel and pick her up, then he went to work and whatever, so um. Yeah he told me, yeah Mama didn' ; t tell me much but my husband, that time, he had one regular job, and one part time job, and one weekend job. And he paid off the apartment in six years. EL: By working 3 jobs. KK: Mhmm right. EL: And at that time, you were raising your children, and working sometimes with the flower shop? KK: Mhmm right, right. EL: That two flat, that, that his earnings from the military, and then his earnings from working three jobs helped pay for, where was that located? KK: 3642 North Wilton. Right next to uh Wrigley field. [laughs] EL: And that property has, has stayed in the family hasn' ; t it? KK: Hmm? EL: That property is still in the family, correct? KK: Right, right. EL: So that has been your home, here in Chicago ever since you were married. KK: That' ; s right, so I never pay rent. [laughs] EL: How was it living with your mother-in-law, that can be challenging sometimes. KK: Mhmm, first things I tell her, " ; Oh, it' ; s nothing" ; but it was something! [laughs] Because we grow up in totally different environment and different family, and uh generation is different too. But every time I think about it, it' ; s my husband' ; s mother, if we both had problem, he' ; s in between, so we tried not to. Then, I think I handled it pretty good. [laughs] EL: And eventually as your children got older, did you start working again? KK: Right, my um, the son, is youngest one, start going kindergarten. I, I decide to work, because I need a little bit more extra money to make things easier. So I was looking for the job, and one day I see that, a small ad in the Chicago Shimpo. They are looking for somebody, and for newspaper I have experience in Japan, maybe I will write article or something, so I called them, I say, " ; Anything I can do at home?" ; Writing article and send to them, I can do that. And they said, " ; No, we want somebody come to the office everyday." ; So I asked them, if I can start working after the kids go to school, and I can come home before kids come home? And they said okay. So I start working part time in the Chicago Shimpo this 1982. EL: And what kind of work did you do at the Shimpo? KK: Except typing, those days use cold type and we have 3 typists, they type it. That I couldn' ; t do that, because I never try, but other than that, I contacted people, and I went in interview, write article, take a picture, decide to take a picture because until that, the Chicago Shimpo not many pictures in, in the newspaper. The one picture could say 10 page of the, you know, articles, so I start taking picture. Then I went to get advertising, and sometime make artwork for the ad, clean up the place, I--I did almost everything, except the typing. EL: And how long did you work there? KK: 13 years. EL: Did you enjoy your work? KK: Uh yes, yes I really enjoyed it. [smiles] Because it' ; s connected to people, so... El: How do you think the Chicago Shimpo is different now, from how it was when you were working there? KK: Totally different, because when I was working there, I want to focus on the community. So I cover the community news, even small or big, big New Year party and some banquet for--or little things happen in some families. Now, and on top of that, it' ; s--we used to use the cold type to type the article, news, and cut up, cut and paste. Now, it' ; s everything by computer, so that' ; s makes a lot of difference. And those days, big things was the president bought fax machine, its not many place had it. So we get the news from Japan every morning, making big noise " ; dududududududu" ; news come out with the paper. And sometimes that paper thing catch the character, couldn' ; t read it. But that' ; s latest news. Now, you just open up the computer you could see everything is there. Totally different, and today, I think they' ; re focusing more for Japanese companies, and people who came from Japan, because subscribers changed too. And sometime when I was working, it was " ; Oh I don' ; t read much article, but I never miss the obituary, and we depending on that." ; I said " ; Okay, how about other work I am doing?" ; But I think that was really important for the community. EL: And then after you left the Shimpo, where did you work after that? KK: Uhh, there was not, I plan it originally, so I was unemployed for a while, then one of the um professors, University of Chicago. He was Mr.--uh Dr. Fujita. He is the expert of the tornados. They called him Mr. Tornadoes. He ask me, if you can help me, my research? So I went to his office, and help him the research, put together the information, it wasn' ; t that hard, I did it for about 1 year, then only report to the place it' ; s, maybe twice a month, no--yeah, twice a month, and most of work I can do at home, so that was about 1 year, and after that? I start going to school, in City College in Washington, in downtown? And I was there for about half a year, one semester maybe? One semester, and law firm, the person I know, " ; Would you like to come and help us?" ; So I wasn' ; t really keen on it, I don' ; t know, what can I do? But I went there, and they have a Japanese department, so I work there for 10 month, and I still think it' ; s not my job, so uh I quit. At that time, Chamber of Commerce, Japanese Chamber of Commerce, it not far from the place, they ask me to come, I says " ; Okay" ; , I don' ; t know what kind of job, but I went there. And about two and a half years I worked there, but I still missing something, and um, I was still working there, then the JASC' ; s pres--not the president, the CEO and assistant CEO came to JAS--I mean JCCC, Chamber of Commerce, for monthly for meeting, CJAC meeting. And every month they come, I just prepare for the tea for them, and whatever they need the copy and things, and one day, Jean Fujiu, and Sharon Harada was there. She just come to me and whispered me, " ; Would you like to come to JASC?" ; I says, " ; Huh, maybe that' ; s community things." ; So I quit Chamber of Commerce and came to here. This 1999, May. EL: Had you been involved with JASC before that? KK: Not really, when I was working in Shimpo, the English section editor was the president of the board here, JASC, for I don' ; t know how many years, Arthur Morimitsu. And from that, with--through him, I know that activity is, and he always bring article, so I translate to Japanese and put them in Japanese section, so in a way I knew, but, and sometimes I take a picture and gave to them, so that was it. EL: So your, your family, you and your husband and your children, or maybe your husband' ; s family, had not been actively participating in activities at JASC? KK: Not much, maybe just one, Kenjinkai, the Wakayama Kenjinkais, they were a group, and run picnic or a New Year' ; s Party or something like that. [smiles] EL: So in all these years that you' ; ve worked here at JASC, what do you think are some of the most important ways in which JASC has served the community? KK: Those days, even now, number one, one thing is, I like it is because it' ; s community, I know the people, we used to work with the Shimpo, I can still meet here and connect with them, and it' ; s really important to keep legacy here in Chicago. And my husband' ; s family went to the camp and worked, come to Chicago, and working with a lot of other people at the hotels or restaurant or whatever. And I thought I have to keep these things here, and same time, Japanese culture, it' ; s important, and I' ; m honest with it, I start learning Japanese culture after I came to U.S. Before that, I never think about it. It' ; s there, and I never going too far to learn it, more--I think I can learn more in Japan, but which I didn' ; t. So after that, um, the JASC have those things and they are trying, I says this is a good place to work. EL: What do you enjoy most, about your work here? KK: People. [nodding] That--those days, Nisei, and a lot of Issei was still here, and I could see that history in each people. Each one different, but it' ; s whole thing in one big container! You know, and they are all, so nice! EL: As far as Japanese culture is concerned, within your own family, what were some of the aspects of Japanese culture that you wanted to pass on to your own children? KK: I don' ; t know I could do or not, but uh I don' ; t say that oh flower arrangement, or calligraphy, but one things I regret is the language, I didn' ; t teach them enough. Because I want to learn English first, so I tried talk to them in English. But, I think philosophy, they' ; re Japanese with, with the culture, the spirit, and manners, that kind of things I want them to know. EL: Do you think you' ; ve succeeded? KK: I don' ; t know, but sometime, I used to tell the kids when they do something, " ; You' ; re not supposed to do that" ; , and they say " ; Oh mom so and so does it" ; " ; I don' ; t know about so and so, but you are Kawaguchi, and Kawaguchi don' ; t do that." ; That' ; s, that' ; s what I tell them. EL: I think we need to start wrapping up, so I just have a few final questions. KK: Okay. EL: As someone who has been deeply involved in the Japanese American community for many years, what kind of changes have you seen in the community? KK: Changes, when I came here, the language here, there was a lot of Japanese still, it' ; s Meiji era language. Yeah that changed, but some Nisei and Sansei is, learn from the grandparents or parents still here, but the family is little bit more together in one bundle, each family used to be. Now it' ; s nuclear. Which is okay, and many Japanese have married to the same nationality, to Japanese-Japanese, but now it' ; s American, maybe they' ; re Caucasian, Black people, Spanish, and other Asians, Koreans, Chinese, pretty soon we are not talking about what your nationality is. So that' ; s a good things, then I hope even then I--I hope they keep up some Japanese heart in there. [laughs] EL: What direction would you like to see JASC go in, in the future? KK: Continue th-the way Japanese taking care of the seniors, we always respect the elderly, and their heart. Then um, I think Japanese, it doesn' ; t matter who you marry to, maybe get together a little bit more, because other nationalities like Chinese, Koreans, Filipino, they really keep up their cultures and family together, so if the young people could study a little bit more Japanese, because we missed in between because the war, so catch up a little bit. They can enjoy that culture. EL: What would you most like for future generations to know about you, and your life, and your husband' ; s life? KK: My life? [laughs] I don' ; t know, I was just so lucky, no matter where I go, came to this country, 14 days in a boat, and arrived in San Francisco, at cousin' ; s place and moved to Chicago, I went to flower design school, and start work in the flower shop, and all other place I go, I was so, lucky. Somebody always close to me and help me. So I stopped to think, I say, " ; Oh is that really, life' ; s that hard?" ; Maybe not, if people help me out, so I can help something, somebody, so that' ; s what, in the community is important. You have to have the feelings to each other and help. I was just really lucky. EL: You always come to work with a real sense of purpose. And you always have a smile for me, and for our coworkers, and I would like to know, how do you keep yourself motivated even when things are challenging? KK: No, I just like the people! [laughs] I like dogs too, but I like the people. Yeah, it' ; s so good to communicate, and touch with people. The pandemic has really hurt me, that part. But I' ; m sure that one year not going to change the people' ; s feelings, I miss them a lot. And uh, no, I just like the people. Because they--they smile at me. I' ; m always think about it, it' ; s, other side it' ; s a mirror, if I treat them good, they treat me good. And smile, the government not going to tax me! [laughs] It' ; s free. EL: I think that' ; s a wonderful note to end on, so thank you very much for participating in our oral history project. KK: You' ; re welcome, my pleasure. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
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Kawaguchi, Kayoko (6/2/2021)
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Kay Kawaguchi, a shin-issei/sansei, describes the pre-war immigration journeys of her family and her husband's family, her husband's experiences while incarerated at Rohwer, and her own experiences in Japan during and after WWII. She also recalls her arrival in the U.S. in 1970 on a temporary visa and the circumstances that led to her eventual marriage and permanent residence in Chicago. A long-time employee at the Chicago Shimpo and the Japanese American Service Committee, she reflects on her community-centered work and shares her hopes for the future.
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2021-06-02
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video
Series: Oral History Project