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6d4aecc75535cee9c6b0a19f46ad44ed
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kawamoto, Amy
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Sansei
Minidoka
Resettlement
Hyde Park High School
Buddhist Temple of Chicago
Teacher
Resettlers' Picnic
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/2/2018 Kawamoto, Amy (3/2/2018) 1:34:57 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery and/or the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1946 Nisei Sansei Minidoka Resettlement Hyde Park High School Buddhist Temple of Chicago Teacher Resettlers' Picnic Kawamoto, Amy Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/273994715/5212d0efef Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/273994715" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Amy Kawamoto discusses her experiences as a young child in Minidoka concentration camp, and her family’s experience after resettling in Chicago. Mrs. Kawamoto went to participated in a girls club, attended to the Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and later taught at the school where she was once a student. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Amy Kawamoto as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on March 2, 2018 at 1:30 PM at the Japanese American Service Committee 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago. Amy Kawamoto is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. AT: To start, can you just state your full name? Amy Kawamoto: My name is Amy Emiko Kawamoto. AT: And can you tell me about where and when you were born? AK: I was born August 26, 1938 in Seattle, Washington. AT: And can you tell me about any memories you might have of Seattle? AK: Seattle -- I don' ; t have memories of. But I have one sister and one brother - older sister and older brother. My parents - my father was born in Kagoshima, Japan, and my mother was born in Hiroshima, Japan. AT: And do you know when they came to the US? AK: My father came on a ship. He was... I don' ; t know exactly what he was doing on the ship, but he was working, and he jumped ship in Seattle at the age of, I think, 18, he said. Knew no one... He had no relatives or anybody there, so he says he swam to shore, and he only had dried fish, and he had no money. Oh, he might have had a few from his work on the ship, but other than that, he was all alone and somehow survived. And this was in 1918, I think. ' ; Cause I have a manifest of that ship with his name on it. And on the side of the sheet that his name was on, it said... Well, it didn' ; t say " ; jump ship," ; but he was no longer on the ship. AT: And how about your mother? AK: My mother was a citizen - she was born in Seattle. But she lost her citizenship when she married my father. AT: Do you know what year they married? AK: They were married - Great Depression, 1929. Right in the heart of the Depression. They were in Seattle until the relocation. AT: And do you know anything about how they met or how they got together? AT: Actually, they were what they call baishakunin, which means an intermediary -- I think my grandmother or somebody introduced them with the intention of having them get married eventually, but -- AT: And how did they make a living in Seattle? AK: My father was a manager of a hotel - they leased the hotel. And my mother did all the changing of beds -- it was like a rooming house. Hundred beds. AT: Do you happen to know what it was called? AK: One of the hotels - the one I was born in - was called Fairview Hotel. And then there' ; s one that I think my sister was born - I' ; ve forgotten the name - it is still standing. The building itself is still standing. But that' ; s what they did. For a living. They always either leased the hotel or eventually, they owned a hotel here -- not a hotel, apartment building, here in Chicago. But they -- the time before, it was all leased. You couldn' ; t own you know - ' ; cause he was not a citizen at that time. AT: Do you know or have any more details about your - either your parents or your family' ; s life before the war? AK: Well, before the war, I could only guess from photos I' ; ve seen. But my mother said that when they first got married, and before the Depression actually hit, she says it was the best time because they had money, and they had a new car, but that all went downhill during the Depression. They lost everything, and I think they went to live with my grandmother in Vashon Island, which is off of Seattle. And it was a hard time. They lost their - my oldest brother who was four years old at the time, died from blood poisoning. He -- I guess he had chicken pox, and scratched it and became infected and - so that was their oldest, first-born, so it was very devastating for them. And my sister was born and my brother and then I was the last one. Although my mother told me, and this was right before she died, that there was a child after me, but because they were entering camp, that the doctor said that probably it' ; s better you aborted it so... And I think she was hemorrhaging or she was bleeding, so... So, I was very upset about that because I always wanted a younger brother or younger sister, you know. AT: And when did you find that out, when did she pass? AK: She passed away in 2003. Yeah... I think for most of them - my parents' ; age - they were very ashamed of being in camp. To them, it was like being in jail. And I know my uncle, he refuses to even talk about it. When he was interviewed, he didn' ; t say a word. Still upset and ashamed. AT: And - your parents, do you know what years they were born? So how old they would have been? AK: My father was born in 1899. He died at age of 95. And my mother was born in 1909, and she lived to be 94. From the photos that I have... I have a photo of when my oldest brother was one years old, and they had a big party at a Chinese restaurant, and they' ; re all dressed up. So I think that was in 19- let' ; s see... he was born in 30 - it was probably 1931. One year old. AT: So you mentioned that your first memories are of the evacuation process? AK: Right, Puyallup Assembly Center. AT: Before talking about your actual memories, can you just tell me a little bit about what happened to your family at the onset of the war? AK: You know, my parents never really talked about it, so, you know, I wish I had asked them, but we never discussed that part of -- ' ; cause I don' ; t really remember how we got to Puyallup. And even when we went to Minidoka, everybody says, " ; Yeah, we were on a train." ; But I don' ; t remember that. So I regret not asking them questions, but I don' ; t think they even wanted to talk about it anyway. For them, it' ; s... an embarrassment, you know. ' ; Cause they felt they were in a jail, you know. But that was sad because they were just - went through a Depression and recovered, and then camp came, and lost everything again, so it was quite devastating. And when I think about my mother, she was only in her 30s with three small children. And I think the hard thing was that they didn' ; t know when they were gonna be out -- at that time. When we look back it wasn' ; t that long of a time, maybe two and a half years, three years. But at that time, they didn' ; t know when. AT: So your family was first sent to [says at the same time] Puyallup Assembly Center -- AK: [says at the same time] Puyallup Assembly Center, uh huh. Camp Harmony, I think they called it. And then we went by train to Minidoka, Idaho, just outside of Boise, Idaho. And... I don' ; t remember the dust storms that people say we had and the cold and - I guess when you' ; re young you just don' ; t feel those things. AT: Can you tell me about the memories that you did have? AK: In camp? Well, when looking back, you know, they were very organized. I' ; m just amazed at the people who were the leaders in each block, how they organized everything. They had a vegetable garden, we had church services, there were also activities of baseball. I remember my father playing baseball. And then I was in a dance group, Japanese dance group. And also, we had like a amateur hour, or people would perform. And I would sing Japanese songs. AT: How old do you think you were at that time that you were participating in those activities? AK: Well, it had to be between three and six. Probably about five or six years old. But like I said, it was a good time for me and all of our friends of that age. But I know it wasn' ; t pleasant for my parents. AT: Before we started recording, you mentioned memories of even the evacuation process when you were probably very young, I think three years old? AK: Three. AT: Can you tell me about those memories? AK: I just remember getting shots. And I don' ; t remember the accommodations in Puyallup. I know it was a fairgrounds, and I think it still is. But... like some people talk about being in horse stables and things like that, and I don' ; t recall that at all. I don' ; t know what we did in Camp Harmony. The only thing I do remember is getting the shots the first time. But other than that, I really don' ; t remember. AT: And what about in Minidoka? Did your parents take up work? What were your siblings up to, if you recall? AK: My sister, I remember, listened to radio, all these... like I remember Helen Trent. And then my brother and I also, we listened to all the Hopalong Cassidy, and -- it was all radio. There was no television. Yeah, and we were outdoors most of the time. Played all kinds of games. But... Even coming to Chicago, growing up, we were very independent, we went wherever, you know, without my parents knowing where we are at, at that time, we were free to go and take the streetcar, and... And coming to Chicago, I think was a good thing because -- I think there was still a lot of prejudice on the West Coast, but Chicago was - my girlfriend and I talk about this all the time that it was a good place to come to - there was very little, very little prejudice. AT: Before we get into your life in Chicago, did your parents, did they work in camp at all? AK: Yes, my father was a timekeeper, and I remember being interviewed for this book, and she says, " ; What is a timekeeper?" ; And I said, " ; Well, I think he kept tabs on all the other workers -- put the time down." ; That' ; s the only thing I could think of. AT: And your mother, did she work at all? AK: No. I don' ; t remember her... ' ; Cause I think there were only a limited amount of jobs, you know. My grandmother also was in camp, also, but she wasn' ; t with us in the same block. She was a nurse, the hospital. AT: Would you happen to remember your block number? AK: 36. I' ; ll remember that for the rest of my life, yeah. 36-7C. 36 is the block, 7 is the barrack, and C is the number on the barrack. A, B, C, D, I think. AT: Another thing that we had talked about before recording was these photographs that you had found of your families barrack. Can you tell me just a little bit more about those photographs and what your father did? AK: I guess, some of the other people who were in our block decided that they would copy my father by ordering wallpaper, so they started decorating their - I never know what to call it [chuckles], it' ; s not exactly an apartment, but it was a room, and my father and mother had wallpapered the whole thing. I guess he got scraps from... from all the working areas and put up plywood [gestures], he did that first, and then they wallpapered it. The floor didn' ; t change, it was still rough and wooden... dusty, and he made a closet, so he could store the wood for the potbelly stove. And he... he made the bed frame, so we didn' ; t have a cot, we had an actual bed, and I don' ; t know what the mattress was made of, but -- and he made a desk, a commode, and a sink. So we had that in our room, so we didn' ; t have to go out. ' ; Course there was no shower, so we had to go to the community bathroom, but I noted that to myself, I said, " ; My God, that' ; s probably why we didn' ; t have to go to the community bathroom that often because we have that commode in our room." ; My mother made the curtains, the bedspread. They decorated it to make it look like a normal house or apartment. See I never appreciated that, but after I went to the pilgrimage -- gosh, that' ; s very nice that my parents did that, you know. AT: So as a child, did you ever -- did you not really notice that your situation was --? AK: [makes noise affirming no] Better than the next door' ; s? No, I never-never thought about it, uh huh. But... trying to think. I still remember the coyotes yowling - at night, howling. And one of my friends who was in Minidoka, she recalled that, too, and I just... That' ; s one of my memories. I know there was a canal where people used to go swimming, but it was very murky and muddy. And when I went back at the pilgrimage, it was just blue, it was just - it was just beautiful. And there was a lot of vegetation around, and I don' ; t recall that ever, yeah, when we were living there. It was very desolate. AT: Were you in school when you were in camp? AK: I went to kindergarten and [it] was very brief because I was six when I left, so... When I came to Chicago, I remember kindergarten, they put me in kindergarten, and then I guess they said maybe I' ; m a little too old, so I went to first grade. Which would' ; ve been six. AT: And what about your siblings? What exactly is the age difference? AK: My sister was five years older than me and my brother was three years older. My brother, like I told you, my brother doesn' ; t recall too much about camp. And my sister passed away in 2000, so, she would have remembered more. AT: And, just briefly going back to your family' ; s barrack, can you describe the photographs that were taken? And just tell me a little more about... AT: All the photographs that were taken by the government was inside. Nothing was taken outside, so... But, there were, I think there was like, two, I don' ; t know if there was two, four... I think... Can' ; t recall how many rooms now, in a barrack. I think one, two, three four, five, at least six. I don' ; t know if there was eight. But I remember the next door family at the end. They were all adults, there were no kids. And then we knew them from Seattle, my parents knew them from Seattle. In fact, there were quite a few families that we knew from Seattle that went to the same block as we were. So, in fact, a couple of them, I still keep in contact with. Children, ' ; cause we' ; re the same age. AT: And just to have on the record, what were the photographs, these government photographs that you found? AK: Actually, they were ordered. I - They gave my mother one photograph that they took, and we had that ever since we left camp, and I... The reason how I found out that there were other photographs was my niece went to the Smithsonian, and she looked at the picture, and she recalled a picture similar to that and said, she called me and says, " ; Auntie, your picture is in the Smithsonian." ; And so then I discovered that there were other photos, it' ; s when she described it to me it was not the one that I had. So I wrote to the National Archives, and I was able to get a number from the back of the picture I did have and give them a description and the - I guess some kind of coding number. So they sent me the negatives of about seven of them, and they asked if I wanted to order them. I could order [gestures] regular 8x10, and so they sent me seven of them, very good quality, black and white pictures. And from then, I' ; ve shown ' ; em to people, and they said, no, that' ; s not their camp. So, I guess I was lucky that we, you know, we did live in a camp that wasn' ; t - in a barrack that was fixed up. And I asked my mother, " ; Where did you get the wallpaper?" ; And she says she ordered it from Sears catalogue. I says, " ; Well, God, here you are in camp, and you were able to do all this?" ; ' ; Cause, you know, there was no credit cards or anything like that. So I don' ; t know how she did it, but we got the wallpaper. So all the others started to do that, too. I don' ; t know how many completed it, but... And I-I' ; m sure that the pictures were used for propaganda because... I think a lot of people said, " ; Well, if they live like that, you know, they' ; re living better than people who are on the outside." ; So [laughs]. AT: Do you recall what year that was, that you found those photos? AK: No, I ordered them. That was - oh, I ordered them... I' ; m trying to think, ' ; cause I went to Washington D.C. that year, and then I did see the photo at the Smithsonian because it was in conjunction with the camp. They had an exhibit about camp. I' ; m... I' ; m trying to think, it had to be 19- hm... 95? Around there? ' ; Cause they had an exhibit at the Smithsonian on camp. AT: Would that have been " ; A More Perfect Union" ; ? Does that sound familiar? The exhibition? AK: No. AT: Different one? AK: Yeah... I' ; m not sure. I have to look it up. I' ; m sorry I didn' ; t take photos, you know, of all that. AT: That' ; s fine, we can -- AK: But the -- when we went on the pilgrimage, we were able to see a authentic barrack. Somebody had preserved a barrack at a farm exhibit. And so there is a-a genuine, authentic barrack in that Minidoka area. AT: When you got that -- when you spoke to your niece who saw the photograph, what was your reaction? Or how did that feel learning about -- AK: Oh, that, yes, I says, " ; Well, there must be other photographs." ; So I asked my mother, and she says, " ; Yes, there were others that were taken." ; And I says, " ; Why isn' ; t my brother and sister in the pictures?" ; And she says, " ; Oh, they were in school." ; I was the only one at home, so. AT: So you were in the photographs? AK: Oh yes, yes. AT: With your parents? AK: Uh huh. And, in fact... this girl called me, after I was at the pilgrimage, and she says she wanted to interview me because I was the girl in that photograph. She says she wanted to interview me because of that photo that was in the Smithsonian. And she' ; s written a book about Minidoka, I thought it might be here [points to book cases], but... I' ; m trying to think... But I will bring those photos down to show you. AK: That would be great, I' ; d love to see them. So you mentioned that your family was probably in camp for about two and a half or three years? AK: Mhm. Two and a half, probably, from April ' ; 42, April ' ; 42, and then, we were one of the early ones to get out, which was in December of 1944. Although my father came out here first to Chicago, ' ; cause he... I don' ; t know, there was a relative who was here already, and so they said to come out, and so he looked around to see if there was a building that he could purchase or lease before we were called out. So he came out in August of ' ; 44, and then we came out in December of ' ; 44 by Pullman train. I remember that train ride [laughs]. It was fun -- we were able to sleep on the car, in a bed. AT: That must have been a -- quite a long -- that must have been a long journey. AK: Long journey. AT: And so your father had come in ' ; 44 in August to -- AK: And then he did find a place. It was on 33rd and Cottage Grove. And he leased -- it was a big hotel. In fact, somebody said, or -- somebody said that the White Sox used to stay there or something. This is way back. But... that was a nice hotel because, you know, you had all your friends right in the same building. So, it was, I think, three stories. Of course, everything was big because, you know, you' ; re so little, but it was... Yeah, I still have friends who-who stayed at our hotel. And... AT: And so you were living in that building as well when you came to Chicago? AK: Yes, we were living there, and let' ; s see -- we moved from there, I think my father lost his lease, and they were going to demolish the building, so we moved from there to 46th and Lake Park on the South Side. And I was there until I got married in 1965, so. AT: And at that location, that' ; s where you were living? AK: Yes, I was living there until I got married. AT: What do you remember of first arriving to Chicago? Do you remember? AK: Oh, I remember, oh yes. ' ; Cause my father was supposed to meet us, and he didn' ; t -- he was nowhere to be found, and we' ; re waiting and waiting and it was snowing, and we were all bundled up because we never felt such cold. Now, it' ; s funny because in Idaho it was probably colder, but I didn' ; t feel that. My aunt and uncle' ; s first apartment -- they already had a building and so my first taste of ice cream 7-Up. That was a real treat. AT: You said that was near your aunt and uncle' ; s place? AK: Aunt and uncle, they lived on - right near the Aragon Ballroom on Lawrence. That was their first apartment. But we' ; re on the South Side. So I know in the Japanese communities you' ; re either a North sider or a South sider. Which was nice -- what was nice is we were all congregated in a certain area on the South side, 43rd and-43rd St and Lake Park, Greenwood, Ellis. All of those blocks were all Japanese. There was Japanese grocery store on 43rd street. AT: Do you happen to remember what that was called, the grocery store? AK: Uh huh, OK Grocery. The Okamotos ran that store. AT: And -- AK: And we all went to either Oakenwald Grammar School or Shakespeare. Those were the two schools. And most of us went to Hyde Park High School. AT: And is that where you and your siblings went? AK: Mhm, yes. AT: So which was the first school -- were you at Shakespeare or Oaken-- AK: Oakenwald, Oakenwald, which was a wonderful experience, yeah. All the Oakenwald people, we all talk about it and how great it was. AT: And so what grade was that that you would have been entering? AK: Well, like I said, I was in kindergarten for a short while, and then they put me in first grade. And the funny thing is, my brother told me that we all spoke Japanese. And so when we first went to school, you' ; re learning the pledge of allegiance and all of that -- that was all new, you know. And I don' ; t know, we somehow quickly learned English. We were all able to adapt without having any kind of lessons. AT: So when you were in camp, that means that you were speaking Japanese only? AK: Mhm. I don' ; t remember speaking Japanese, but that' ; s what my brother said. Because even when we came to Chicago, she spoke to us in Japanese, and of course, I would answer in English. My father always had a dictionary. He always wanted to learn words, so he was able to speak English. I think my mother because she was more with her own Japanese friends that she -- although she spoke and understood, you know, English. She-she never took any English lessons or anything. AT: And how would you describe your experience at Oakenwald? AK: Wonderful, just -- teachers were just great. They were all -- most of them were Irish Catholic. They were not married, and we remember -- in fact, when I went to this not the Alphawood, but the more recent event at the Historic-History Museum, met a friend there who went to Oakenwald, and he just raved about the teachers, and I says, " ; Yeah, we all know that." ; But he says he called them up and took them out to dinner when he got older, and I says, " ; Wow, you must have had a good experience." ; He says, " ; Wonderful." ; And everybody who did go to Oakenwald really appreciated the teachers and the school was just wonderful. AT: And that-that neighborhood at the time, you mentioned there were a number of Japanese-American families that had resettled there -- AK: It was changing then, it was -- ' ; cause our school, you can see, like when my sister went to Hyde Park, it was all white in her class. In my brother' ; s class, there was a sprinkling of blacks. In my class, it was like, quite a few blacks. So the neighborhood was changing at that time. But we had no problems, we all seemed to get along in Hyde Park. AT: Do you remember, as a child, ever thinking about your identity or...? AK: No, we weren' ; t deep thinkers, [laughs] no. The fact that we didn' ; t come across any real prejudice, I look back, I says, this is amazing. Because this is right after the war, and you know, even the teachers were apprehensive about, you know, teaching these Japanese from, you know -- they' ; ve never met us. But I remember talking to my eighth grade teacher, and she says, " ; That was the best time," ; she says, " ; When the Japanese kids came to our district," ; she says. " ; Because they were so well-behaved and..." ; So it was a good time. I don' ; t know about the ones who went back to California. I don' ; t know their experience, just was curious about that. My father came from a very warm climate-environment in Japan, so I was amazed at why he would pick someplace like Chicago. To settle. AT: Did you ever have a chance to ask him about it or have a conversation? AK: Well, when -- because I went back to Kagoshima, and I just loved it. And I' ; m - says, " ; Why did you leave?" ; Of course, he was very independent at 18, and I asked him why he wanted to come to America, and he said to learn English. And I thought, " ; That was a curious answer." ; And it wasn' ; t until I went to Kagoshima, how progressive they were during that era, which was the end of the Meiji Era where they were very progressive in their thinking. They wanted to -- in fact, they sent a few children to study in England! And he says, yeah, he wanted to learn English. So, I says, " ; Well, were you gonna go back?" ; You know, and he says, well, it wouldn' ; t have been good for him ' ; cause there really isn' ; t anything that he could' ; ve - except for farming, during that era, during that time. So... let' ; s see. You wanted to know...? AT: So, in Chicago, was your family religious at all or did they take part in -- AK: Well, my father and mother, they belonged to the Buddhist Church, and I went to Sunday school at the now Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and I still attend that church - or that temple. But it wasn' ; t until I got older that I realized that that' ; s actually what I believe. Before it was just a lot of fun, like everything else, it was time to meet your friends and socialize. But you didn' ; t think too much about the religion. AT: And can you tell me about -- so at that time, it must have been when the temple was still on the South Side. AK: Mhm. AT: Can you tell me about -- maybe describe where that was in your memories of it? AK: That was on -- I think it was on 57th and Dorchester. Kind of -- I can' ; t say for sure that' ; s the address, but Reverend Kubose who founded the church, he was a wonderful man. And I learned so much from him, just from example. AT: Did you participate in Japanese School? AK: Mhm, mhm, for a short while. I' ; m trying to think -- most of the activities my parents were involved in was because of the church. That was their social life, the Issei' ; s. That' ; s why there was a huge membership because that was their meeting place, you know. Now, it' ; s not as much, and all the old-timers have passed on. AK: And besides services, do you remember what any of those activities were? AK: Activities at church? AT: That your parents might have participated in? AK: Oh well, every year we had a picnic, of course, just like the Resettlers' ; picnic. Well, actually, I think Resettlers was the prelude to JASC, I think Resettlers became JASC. AT: Did you have a favorite activity or event either through BTC or maybe other groups that you enjoyed going to? AK: Actually, I went to BTC through -- up until the time I went to high school. And then I stopped going. Just like Japanese school, I stopped going to Japanese school when I entered high school. To my regret today, I wish I had continued. AT: Was that a personal decision that you had made? To stop going? AK: Right, because we had other activities, dancing and things, had dances and -- but things that you, you know, you think about when you' ; re young as to opposed when you get older, just like, you know, you wish you had taken piano lessons [laughs]. But Japanese -- we were just getting into kanji. I knew katakana, hiragana, and we were getting into kanji, and I stopped. I wish I had continued, yeah. AT: What other activities were you involved with while you were on the South Side? So whether grade school or -- AK: Well, we had basketball, we had, you know, basketball, there was a girls league as well as a boys league, and so we played basketball, and- half court, I think. And played baseball, although there was no league for us. But being on the South Side, the lake was a great place to be at because it was a big park and, you know, we went swimming in the lake, although there were no life guards, but we still went. I used to go fishing with my brother. AT: On the lake? AK: On the lake, you know. We used to get up like, 4 o' ; clock in the morning, and we were young kids, there was about six of us and we would walk over to Lake Michigan. It was dark, but... it was fun, we didn' ; t worry about... being accosted or anything, it was just... It was a good time for us, we had a lot of freedom, yeah, we would be out after school, running around somewhere, and I don' ; t think our parents ever knew where we were, but [chuckles] I would go to my girlfriend' ; s house, and my brother would pick me up on his bike because 33rd and 43rd -- we' ; d have to- well, we could walk it, we walked it all the time, but... Yeah, we had a lot of freedom. I wish the kids nowadays had the freedom, but not anymore. AT: And at that time, just being out either past dark or whatever, did you -- you always felt safe? AK: [shakes head] Never afraid. Like I tell my friends, I says, " ; Yeah, I' ; m from the South Side, I' ; m not afraid of anything." ; [laughs] AT: How about the girls' ; clubs? AK: Mhm, there were lotta girls clubs, yeah. I was at the tail end of that era. There were quite a few girls clubs, and they all had dances. AT: Can you describe to me what those clubs were? AK: Well, they were mostly social, but some - from what I understand - there were some groups that would raise money for charity or something, but I don' ; t think that was basic. Most of it was just social, and they would hold dances every once in a while. And charge whatever dollar or whatever. Those were a lotta fun. AT: Those dances? AK: I don' ; t know if you know Herbie Hancock? Well, he played at -- ' ; cause I graduated with him from Hyde Park, and he played for our dances. He was in a combo at that time. But -- AT: And what class was that? What year did you graduate from Hyde Park? AK: What class? 19-um, see, we graduated 1956. Yeah. We still get together with Herbie when he comes into town. In fact, he was at the Symphony Center last November. And I didn' ; t see him, but my girlfriend went. And one of her -- he comes into town and try to get together. The nicest person you' ; ll ever meet, you know. In fact, he was at Ravinia one time, and he had everybody sing the Hyde Park fight song. AT: Just to go back and clarify, were you involved in any girls clubs in high school? AK: No, not in- with the school, but outside of school we had a club. AT: What was your -- what club were you in? AK: We were called the Coolettes. [laughs] And I still keep in contact with those girls, after how many years. AT: Can you tell me what you all would do? In that club? AK: Well, we played basketball, and we would hold dances. AT: Where would you hold those dances? And who was coming? AK: Oh, all the... all the Japanese community. We held it at the Y. There was a Y on- near north. I' ; d have to look at my scrapbook. But... And the Olivet Institute -- I don' ; t know if Olivet is still around. It' ; s on Cleveland. We used to hold dances there and play basketball there. Olivet Institute. And let' ; s see, where -- oh, and once in a while we would hold it on the South Side, Piccadillly. AT: Was that a community center or? AK: Piccadilly was like a- Aragon. It was like a open -- AT: A concert hall. AK: Right. I don' ; t really remember what it was, actually. We used to go to a lot of movies, every week, we would end up at the theater. With all the musicals and everything. AT: Do you know which theater that was? AK: Yes, it was Kenwood, on the South Side on 47th street. And then there was Shakespeare on 43rd street. That' ; s when they had 25 cartoons. I don' ; t know if you remember, probably not. AT: So you mentioned you were married in 1965? AK: Mhm. AT: And that was when you moved out of the South Side for the first time. AK: Right, right, mhm. It was -- so I moved to Belmont and near Belmont and Broadway- or Clark. I lived on Orchard street, mhm. AT: How did you meet your husband? AK: Oh, I met him at Navy Pier when it was U of I. AT: And is that -- so is that where you went to school? AK: Mhm. U of I. AT: And what did you study there? AK: Well, I was -- it was just general at Navy Pier, I didn' ; t know what I wanted to do. And then after two years, I went downstate, and I ended up going to Roosevelt University and graduated in Education. AT: And after college, what kind of work did you get [inaudible]? AK: I was a teacher in Chicago. Same grammar school that I graduated from, Oakenwald. AT: So continuing the legacy. AK: So, my eighth grade teacher was the assistant principal at that time. So she told me a lot of things during the time we were children there, so. Yeah, she was one of the favorite teachers. AT: What did you teach? AK: Third, mostly third and fourth grade. AT: And when you came back to Chicago after some of your schooling, where were you living? AK: When I was married? When I got married, I was on Orchard street. AT: And then, well, and you mentioned that you went downstate for a time. When you came back, did you just go back to Orchard street? Or did you -? AK: No, I wasn' ; t living -- no, I wasn' ; t married then. I was dating him, at that time. AT: And is that where you were living when you were teaching at Oakenwald? AK: Mhm, mhm. And then actually, we moved further north from there. We were on Peterson and Kedzie, I think, which is even further north. And then eventually we moved to Lincolnwood. AT: Do you remember what year it was that you moved up north to Peterson? AK: Let' ; s see, on Orchard, we were- was ' ; 65 when I got married, and we were there three years. And then we were on Kedzie for two years. And then after that we were living in Lincolnwood for -- oh, now it would be like 40 years now. But my husband passed away last April. We were married over 51 years. Yeah, I was hoping we would grow old together, but... AT: What did you husband do? AK: He owned a drapery and blind shop. Actually, we never had a shop, but he did mostly commercial work. And now my son has taken over the business. AT: What was that business called when he was -- AK: It' ; s a -- we do draperies, blinds, shades, mostly for the commercial. AT: Did they have a business name? AK: Kawamoto, Inc. It was so funny because we thought, well, it' ; s very unique, Kawamoto, Inc. Well, discovered that there was an interior decorator whose name was Martha Kawamoto. So, M. Kawamoto, was not as unique as we thought, so. AT: And what was the reason for moving farther north, especially since you were teaching on the South Side? AK: Well, we thought we would have children, and we wanted -- we were thinking Lincolnwood was a good place. But of course we didn' ; t have children, or we didn' ; t have our son til much later. We were married fourteen years before he -- so I' ; m a late mother as well as a late grandmother. But we' ; re lucky to have him. Was as much trouble as he' ; s given me. AT: And so the thinking was it would just be better raising a family in Lincolnwood? AK: Mhm, mhm [nodding]. But I wish it was better for my parents. I think we had one vacation together as a family when my son was about a year and a half, and... yes, ' ; cause I don' ; t think my mother ever had a vacation. AT: Were your parents still on the South Side? Or did they stay on the South Side? AK: They were still on the South Side, mhm. Then my mother had a heart attack when she was about 79, and she came to live with us and never left. So she was with us for most of our married life. My father was still on the South Side, and I finally told him, you know, " ; You have to leave." ; So I got him into Heiwa Terrace. Yeah, it was not a good, it was not an easy life for them. They lost the buildings to urban renewal, you know. AT: The buildings on the South Side? AK: Yeah. And he was broken into a couple of times and, you know, because of the change in the neighborhood, there was very few grocery stores, you know... In fact, there were not many children because the schools, you know, even Oakenwald closed, and they eventually tore it down. It' ; s a beautiful area, if you look at the view, you can see downtown and just, very close to the lake, beautiful area. It' ; s just too bad that it was run down afterwards, after a while. AT: And you had- you mentioned that you didn' ; t really experience any kind of discrimination in your upbringing on the South Side. Do you know if your parents did run into any...? AK: I don' ; t recall, they might have, but I, you know, I don' ; t recall. AT: Did they ever talk about camp or the war? AK: Never. It never came up in conversation. And at that time, being a teenager, you' ; re not interested either, but I wish I had asked them. I' ; m writing my father' ; s story because I want the grandkids to know, you know, because he was the first to come to the United States in our family, and I thought it would be a good thing for them to know about that. I' ; ve been writing this thing for about ten years, so it' ; s -- when I' ; ll get it finished, so, that' ; s one of the reasons why I was able to get the manifest from that ship that he came on, ' ; cause he told me the name of the ship. I wish- I' ; m glad I- because there' ; s very little to go on because he -- when he was in Kagoshima, his father died, and his mother remarried, and so he has half-brothers and sisters, but no... But I remember him when we were at the Memorial Hotel on Cottage Grove, big building, and he used to- he used to be coal-burning stove, so he' ; d have to get all that coal coming into the basement, and he' ; d have to shovel all that coal into the furnace to get the heat going. That' ; s probably why he lived so long, because he was so physically able. He was always playing Go, the Japanese game. That' ; s all he did. I remember with his friends, and then he used to have Go tournaments in our basement. I remember all that smoke because it was a low ceiling, and they all were smokers. But like I said, I think the only, probably, fun they had was probably going to the picnics or... AT: Do you remember -- did you attend the picnics? AK: Yes, every one. [chuckles] Because of the races that we would have and the -- AT: Yeah, can you describe to me what the picnics were like and where they were? Who was going? AK: Mhm, the picnics were held not too far away, it was probably on the lakefront, 40- or 50-something. I don' ; t know if you' ; ve been to the picnics that they have now, OK, I think they wanna reproduce some of the things that they did by having games and prizes and yeah, it' ; s one of my fondest memories. [laughs] Those picnics. Not only because of the games and things, but the bento, you know, the ones that your mothers made, my god, was a feast! AT: What were some of the things that were in the bento? AK: Those rolled eggs. Just like the kind of food you would have for New Year' ; s, you know. Yeah. AT: Besides what' ; s now BTC and the Resettlers' ; picnic, were there other picnics that- or was it mostly -- ?AK: Yeah, no, there was a Kagoshima picnic, which is, you know, the ken, and I think there must have been Hiroshima, but my father, because being Kagoshima, he went to all the Kagoshima... AT: And if you had to describe the Japanese American community of Chicago in those early post-war years, how would you describe it? AK: Like I said, most of the activities were -- I don' ; t real- my father did not participate as much as my mother because they also had the Boy Scout troop at BTC, which my brother was involved in. And... they also had, I' ; m pretty sure, what-like they do now, they have the kendo and things like that. But I remember my brother participating in the scouting, which was a very good program for them. It was huge, quite a few scouts. I don' ; t know, the Japanese are very- so organized, you know, they can organize things very quickly. AK: If you were to, I guess my next question would be how would you describe the Japanese American community of Chicago today? And maybe what' ; s different or what has changed, if anything. AK: Well, I can tell you from the church more than I could, like the JASC I' ; m not involved as much, but... it' ; s turning to a more Caucasian -- if you go to church now to BTC there are more Caucasians than there are Japanese. And I think because the younger group- because it' ; s now spread out so much, a lotta people living in the suburbs, they don' ; t come into town. But I think there is more traditional things going on way back when my parents were going to- as far as like, classical dancing and- ' ; cause I don' ; t think there' ; s anybody who can teach that now. There was at one time, and my mother played the koto. I understand that' ; s still- there' ; s a group that plays that instrument. But how it differs from today and yesteryear... I think now, people are so spread out, and they have their own activities and because of the car, they can drive anywhere. They' ; re not as religious, maybe. Though I think during my mother' ; s time, although they probably weren' ; t that religious, not as much as some of the Caucasians now there. They study Buddhism, and they know more than I would. I would know... but... Yeah, I think the Japanese are actually more prejudiced, I think, than the Caucasian, in the sense that they like to be in their own community and run their own... ' ; Cause I remember my father, when my brother was dating a, I think she was Chinese, oh he was very upset. As much as you know, maybe other people are prejudiced against him, he is more prejudiced than anybody I know. That' ; s why we probably all marry Japanese. It was ingrained in us. So you don' ; t have somebody like that, it' ; s more open. AT: And before we wrap up, I wanted to be sure to ask you about the pilgrimage that you took to Minidoka. Can you just describe when you went and what that was like for you? AK: My husband and I, I think we drove, ' ; cause we were going to go to Yellowstone, so I think on the way we went to Minidoka. And they had an open- was it- anyway, there was a family in there who was, I guess, their parents were in this farming community and every year for the pilgrimage, this family opens their farm to the pilgrimage people, and invite them for a get-together, which is very nice, they do it every year. And, let' ; s see, one of the activities was we got together in a group and like this, they interviewed people. AT: I' ; m sorry, what year was that? AK: 2006. AT: And how had you -- how did that get on your radar, that such a thing? AK: Well, I was interested in Minidoka, and I became a member of the Minidoka, I don' ; t know if you would call it a club, but they started to have these pilgrimages, so I told my husband, I says I' ; d like to go sometime, so we happened to go in 2006. And... but anyway, I learned a lot. Because I always thought from my point of view it was fun. But then I began to realize that there were so many hardships that a lot of people went through. Especially a couple with just a infant, and how they had to stay up all night to keep the baby quiet because, you know, it was just, you could hear next door. But things like that. And those who lost... lost their sons during the war. Understand, I think, Minidoka was one of the top, as far as losing, sons in the war. AT: And that was the first time that you had gone back since [inaudible] AK: Mhm, mhm, and it was such an eye-opener, my goodness, it was not desolate or dark or grey, it was green all around, it was- I don' ; t remember sagebrush. The water was clear and blue. The canal, I remember, was very, you know, we used to go swimming in it [makes a disgusted facial expression]. But I encourage everybody to do it if they can, go on the pilgrimage. ' ; Cause it will be lost. AT: What will be lost? AK: That-that idea that we were incarcerated. And, of course, it should never happen again, but... one never knows. AT: When you were raising your son, did you share with him about your experiences and your family' ; s experiences? AK: Not really, although in school, I think it was seventh grade, there was a unit on the camps, and there was a debate on whether or not it was fair or if it was legal, and they had a debate about it, and my son was very adamant. He says that it was not fair and this and that. Well, they lost the case, it was -- they said that to protect their lives and that it was- it was not exactly right, but that it had to be done. AT: That was the position that won? AK: That' ; s the side that won, but upset my son [chuckles]. ' ; Cause he' ; s one of these very outspoken, you know, he' ; s not like Japanese who are- held a lot of their feelings and... He' ; ll speak up, so he was very upset when he learned about it, and I didn' ; t tell him. AT: You didn' ; t tell him what? AK: About the camps. That we were in it [chuckles]. And he was very upset when he found out his grandma and grandpa were forced into camp. AT: So when did you share that with him, that information? AK: When he was, like, in seventh grade, I think, that' ; s when they taught it in school. I wish he would go to one of the pilgrimages, I says, you know, this way you can learn what happened to grandma and grandpa, how they' ; re feeling. ' ; Cause my point of view is completely different. AT: Can you explain that a little more? AK: Oh, because of my age, you know, because I was still young, I really didn' ; t know what was going on. I thought the whole world was just Japanese at that time, and I didn' ; t even distinguish that there were Caucasian teachers. I guess when you' ; re that age, you know, you really don' ; t discriminate. At least I didn' ; t. AT: Do you remember if there was ever a time or moment that where you did start to understand? AK: Not when I was young. It was when I got older, and as far as the hardships and everything, no, I didn' ; t. [long pause] I don' ; t know, I don' ; t have any resentment because I really didn' ; t suffer, you know. [long pause] I could understand the people who were- their education was interrupted or... but I think like you said, that there were a lot of people who appreciated the direction, they took a different direction, they went on to school, became engineers, and... My brother married a girl who was born in camp, and I remember her when she was one years old, walking around. He went back to Seattle. He now lives in Seattle. AT: When did he make that move? AK: Let' ; s see, I got married in ' ; 65, he got married in ' ; 64, so he went back to Seattle, he drove back, I think in ' ; 63. AT: Do you know why he chose to go back? AK: Well, he married, he married the girl, she was living there. And the odd thing about it, or ironic thing about it is her father and my father knew each other in Japan. Yeah, they grew up together, and their parents, their mothers knew each other. So when my father went back for the first time, he went back in ' ; 52, there was, let' ; s see, he left in 19- so it was like 35 years, went back. And they both had white hair, and their mothers' ; had black hair ' ; cause in Japan, they all dye it. And so they made ' ; em dye their hair, so when he-my father-came back it was dark, dark-haired. But I know they-they didn' ; t want them to come back to America. They wanted to keep them. AT: Had you ever thought about leaving Chicago for Seattle or? AK: I would love to have lived in Seattle. No, Chicago is my home. Actually I, living in this area' ; s longer than I' ; ve lived anywhere else. Sadly, all the buildings that we once lived in are no longer around. But all the children my age or a little older that lived in that community really have fond memories, yeah. The times we would play baseball in the park or go to the lake, swimming, and we would bike around the neighborhood, very carefree. Yeah, my girlfriend and I always talk about the freedom that we had, you know, nothing that we could do now, but at that time, it was- it was wonderful. AT: We only have a few more minutes here, but before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or you wanna be sure to talk about? AK: Well, in contrast to my parents' ; life, my husband and I, we always thought we had such a good life, and they provided for us, and... Like they went through Depression, the war, the relocation, and then my father went through urban renewal. It' ; s just... yeah... We were lucky. I' ; m sure that' ; s true of all the immigrants who came. You know. The sons and daughters had the advantages. And then our children have even more advantages, but then they didn' ; t have the... the sense of community that we did. ' ; Cause not only do we know our friends, but we know the mothers and fathers, we know the sisters and brothers. For a while there, we would have a reunion in Las Vegas, that Tonko would arrange, and there was quite a few people, like 200 people, you know. AT: What was that reunion for or who was it for? AK: Chicago reunion for all the people who were either involved in the clubs or involved with the basketball or anybody who wanted to come and share their good times. Tonko and Pauline, I don' ; t know if you know Pauline, they stopped doing it a couple years ago. I guess it was just too much to handle, but for a while there, yeah, we were going every, like, five years, and then it became three years, and then it became two years because we wanted to get together. We had a good time, yeah. So I don' ; t think, you know, like, if you were raised today, and you weren' ; t involved in that community, you would probably know a few families, but here we know a lot of families, yeah. AT: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and coming in and sharing with us. AK: Oh, you' ; re welcome. You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://www.saitolincoln.com/ohms-viewer-3.8.6/render.php?cachefile=KawamotoAmy20180302.xml KawamotoAmy20180302.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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Kawamoto, Amy (3/2/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Amy Kawamoto discusses her experiences as a young child in Minidoka concentration camp, and her family’s experience after resettling in Chicago. Mrs. Kawamoto went to participated in a girls club, attended to the Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and later taught at the school where she was once a student.
Subject
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1946
Date
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2018-03-02
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video
Series: Untold Stories
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kawano, Linda
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/1/2017 Kawano, Linda (11/1/2017) 1:16:13 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kawano, Linda Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/297406079 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/297406079?h=c87e48f1cc" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:01 This is an interview with Linda Kawano as part of Alphawood Galleries, Chicago resettlement experience oral history project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition. Then they came from me, incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two and the demise of civil liberties. Today is November first 2017 and we' ; re recording at the Alphawood Gallery oral industry studio. Linda Kawano is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. And to start, can you just state your full name? Linda Kawano: 00:00:32 Sure. Linda Suzu Kawano. AT: 00:00:35 And where and when were you born? LK: 00:00:37 I was born in Chicago on October 16, 1953. AT: 00:00:44 Um, and like I mentioned, we' ; re interested in hearing a little bit about your family' ; s experiences during the war. So can you just tell me a little bit about your parents, where they were from, where they were born? LK: 00:00:57 Sure. Um, my mother was born in Del Ray, California, which is outside of Fresno. Um, and uh, her father and mother came from Japan, I believe my grandmother was a, perhaps a picture bride because I don' ; t believe they came together from Japan. And they were grape, raisin grower, grape growers, which, and then also produced raisins from the grapes. And my mother had a younger brother, Raymond Nakagawa. My mother' ; s name was Grace Nakagawa. And Suwato and Natsui Nakagawa the names of my grandparents. My father' ; s side, uh, entered the port of Seattle. So they, but they first, I think my grandparents came together from Japan, but I don' ; t know that for sure. My, um, my grandmother' ; s family' ; s from the Hiroshima area and my father was from the Otowa area in Japan. They initially settled in Medford, Oregon where my father was born, Minoru Kawano and then they moved to Seattle and had another child. My aunt who' ; s still living, she' ; s almost 97 years old and she lives in Seattle area in Redmond, Washington. So they lived in Seattle and that' ; s where they lived until the war broke out. AT: 00:02:32 And what did your father' ; s family do? LK: 00:02:35 Um, my grandfather was a chef. He worked at the, I believe it' ; s called the Hotel Seattle or the Seattle Hotel, which is now a Fairmont hotel in Seattle. And um, my grandmother didn' ; t work AT: 00:02:54 And, um, so when the war broke out, what, where did your families go? What happened? LK: 00:03:03 So in the case of my father and his family, they went to the Puyallup assembly center in Puyallup, Washington, and then eventually were moved from there to the Minidoka Relocation Camp, in Hunt, Idaho, I believe. And my mother' ; s family, they went to the Fresno Assembly Center and from there were transferred to the Gila River, Arizona, a relocation center camp for the war. AT: 00:03:38 How old were your parents? LK: 00:03:42 I believe my mother had just graduated from high school. Now ah four years prior to the, I guess Pearl Harbor, my grandmother died. So my mother was a without a mother for four years and then went into the camp. Uh, I think her brother was two years younger and they all, the, my grandfather and my brother and my mother went into that campaign, Gila River. Um, in the case of my father, um, he had gone to the University of Washington and, uh, uh, I guess as a graduation present, my grandmother took him to Japan. Um, and my aunt went to. Um, by that time she would have probably graduated from high school. She was a couple years older than my mother. She and my, she' ; s the only living relative now, uh, everyone else has died. But, um, my, uh, grandmother had a, my grandfather stayed back in Seattle working and I think my grandmother wanted to have my wanted to go back and stay in Japan, but it was in the late thirties and my aunt had a friend in the State Department. LK: 00:05:00 Well, I guess it would have been the embassy in the US embassy and was telling my, um, my father and my aunt that it wasn' ; t very safe. And eventually they returned to a, uh, it would have been Seattle and my father came back on the last ship that they allowed back. Um, because the last ship that came out of Japan, uh, headed for the States, I believe, when midway in the Pacific and then was turned back. So, um, by that time my grandmother had returned to the States. Um, and um, so they got back, but that' ; s what happened. AT: 00:05:44 In by a hair. LK: 00:05:46 Yeah by a hair. AT: 00:05:48 And do you know about how long the families were in camp? LK: 00:05:53 Uh, yeah. Uh, basically. So in the case of my father and my aunt, I think when, um, it was decided that they could leave the camp, if there was a sponsor jobs East, um, according to my aunt, my father, they decided that they' ; d go as far as they could because they were given a free ticket, I guess by the government, I suppose War Relocation Authority. So they chose New York City. So my aunt went from Seattle, but she went first and she had a job with a Presbyterian minister. Um, I think he headed the Presbyterian, ah organization for the US and lived, I believe in Brooklyn, New York. So the job was for him or her to live with them and I believe take care of the kids or help at least at the church and perhaps in this organization. So she went out there first and connected and I don' ; t know how they connected up, but she did connect up with other Nisei that had gone out there and then wrote to my father and said, you know, why don' ; t you come out to. LK: 00:07:04 And so he found a job at the Taft Hotel. Um in New York City, which is now, I believe the Michelangelo. It' ; s in Midtown and uh, that' ; s where he worked and I believe they had separate apartments, but eventually they moved in together and there was this little Japanese community in this community that we' ; re two people by the name of the Shino' ; s, they passed on too, but they were working for um, I believe they' ; re working for Pearl Buck. And they said that Pearl Buck' ; s husband needed and Pearl Buck needed a, um, someone to work in the office. So Pearl Buck' ; s, husband, second husband, I think his name was Mr. Walsh. Um John Walsh. I think he, he had John Day Publishing Company and on Fifth Avenue and that' ; s just publishing company published Pearl Buck' ; s work. He had married Pearl Buck and he had children from his first marriage and they were still, I think young, so they had taken the, she had taken him in, but they had an apartment on Fifth Avenue I believe. LK: 00:08:16 And then they also had a country home Perkasie, if I' ; m saying it correctly, Pennsylvania, which it still exists. And it was now the Pearl Buck home and estate and museum. Um, so anyway, my aunt uh, applied for work there and she was hired so she worked for Pearl Buck and for Mr. Walsh as their assistant or secretary really. And she talks about meeting several people, including um Eleanor Roosevelt. Nehru, because Mr. Walsh published all of Nehru' ; s books, I believe he' ; s the first president independent India. And others. So, uh, she has a lot of stories about that life there. And she lived there in Ja, in New York for 15 years. She met her husband there and another Nisei a fellow and they married in Riverside Church and lived there. But due to, I believe her in-laws' ; , illnesses, their elderly Issei parents of her husband, they moved to the Bay Area in 15 years. LK: 00:09:29 My father lived in New York for seven and then moved onto Chicago because a lot of the people that he went to school with, he had a lot of fellow classmates when the University of Washington, um, were, had moved to Chicago. They had, they had found jobs in Chicago and moved from Mindoka, I assume, to Chicago. So after seven years in New York he decided he' ; d move to Chicago and that' ; s how we got here. with regard to my mother, um, she, I believe, had a job lined up in Chicago at Lutheran deaconess hospital, I believe, and left the Gila River Camp to come to Chicago. Um, and also then met people. She was active in JACL, l think she was a secretary and active in the Buddhist, um, League here in Chicago. Um, and after my father came to Chicago, I think it might' ; ve been in, well it would have been seven years from the math is difficult, but um 43, 50. I guess he, he met my mother and they married, I believe in 51 and then I was born in 53. So that' ; s all in Chicago. AT: 00:10:59 And so, um, it sounds like, so your dad got an early leave to go to New York following his sister. Um, did your mother leave early as well? LK: 00:11:12 She left early too. Um, I think it was about the earliest she could. Um, my, my uncle he, he left later, but then he got drafted before the war was up. So you ended up going to, I believe it was Germany, but my mother' ; s brother, yes, Ray Nakagawa, he, um, I don' ; t know as much about it but eventually I can go into that later. But uh, we did learn a little bit more later because we ended up caring for him. AT: 00:11:54 And so I want to, um, I want to take it back to your, your parents can' ; t camp experiences a little bit. So it sounds like they, both of them, they weren' ; t there for too long that they took the early leave as soon as possible. LK: 00:12:16 No, I guess not. Yeah. AT: 00:12:18 And what, what do you know about their experiences in camp? Did they ever share anything with you? LK: 00:12:27 Yeah, well, so my father, they talked about, but really not any of the, I suppose heartbreaking or things that really bothered them. They, they talked about the kind of laughingly talked about--My father, I remember going to the mess hall and eating shark because that was something that the, I guess they decided they would, it was cheap probably. And maybe being a fish they thought that the Japanese liked it. But the thing is, um, my, my, uh, so anyway, that I know you talked about that he, he carved a chest set at Puyallup and it' ; s on exhibit here at the Alphawood, um, exhibit. Ah this chest set it curiously, he carved it out of scrap lumber that was hanging around because they were building out the horse stalls there. They were keeping the people in. And the scrap lumber, I assume was in a pile and he carved it, the board so that it had hinge. LK: 00:13:37 It was two pieces with a hinge in the middle. So I guess he knew he was going to be traveling with this chest set and this chest set has traveled with the art of, Gaman. My father had died by this time, but it has traveled the world and across the US there' ; s a story attached with that. But in any event he did that. He stained it with a shoe polish that he had. Um, he, he, he didn' ; t really talk more about real specific things. But curiously, my aunt, who I take care of in Redmond, Washington, I go out there every few months to look in on her, but she lives in an adult family home in Redmond. So I' ; ve been going through her stuff, her how home is still somewhat intact and I' ; ve been cleaning it out. And so the last time I was there, I guess it was August, I looked through a lot of the photos and I found photos of her sitting in front of the infirmer, infirmary at the Minidoka Camp. LK: 00:14:38 And so I asked her about and she said, yeah, she, uh, served there to assist the nurse. And there was a picture of her with the nurse, uh, in front of it and I was surprised that by that time they were taking photos, I don' ; t know who took the photo or anything that might give you more, more of an idea because maybe when they lightened up a little and they allowed photos that she was still there. Um, but, um, I know that she never really talked much about camp, but I have to say I never really asked them specifically about what life was. When people would come over, have family friends while I was growing up, they would all talk about camp. And every time they' ; re talking about camp, it didn' ; t sound like a horrible place. So, um, as children I think they were shielding us from all of that. LK: 00:15:32 My mother didn' ; t talk a lot about it. I feel she really, it was hard for her. I just felt that because she lost her mother and she was the, um the only female in this, in their unit. Right. The younger brother who was kind of bratty I think, and my grandfather. So, um, I think it was harder on her, um, I found things in or belonging, I' ; ve had to clean up the house and uh, she kept from, she took with her from the, um, home in Del Rey, California, the farm really, to camp and then brought them to Chicago. So there were things that meant a lot to her. AT: 00:16:25 So. Okay, now go back to their experiences of, of leaving camp and eventually ending up in Chicago. Um, so I guess let' ; s start with your mother since she came to Chicago first. Do you know where she ended up settling, which part of the city? LK: 00:16:59 I think initially she lived in that little area that was down by the Gold Coast. I don' ; t know what it' ; s called now or I just know it' ; s closer. I think ironically she lived there and then she lived in Lincoln Park. I always say that my, the, the Japanese settled the places that then became too expensive for them to live. Um, that was not prime real estate at that time, but there was a little enclave I think, of Japanese businesses and stuff. And then she lived, I think, believed in an apartment there now, um, I remember when my mother talked about meeting a woman who had an apartment down the hall and I have a Caucasian woman and they became best friends and, and this woman came from Iowa to kind of seek out her fame and fortune. Um more or less in the big city and when she died we were close to this family. LK: 00:18:02 And when she died was years after my mother, her family was, um, we went to the funeral here and it was in Chicago. The family still lived in Iowa and all farming in a farming community. And they talked about how they looked up to the, this mother, my friend their aunt, as this big city person in the family and she started her own business and so forth. But my mother talked about how they connected very well because they were both from farming communities. And uh, uh, and I have, I remember we went out there to that farm in Iowa and there' ; s photos in our albums. So it was her first, maybe her really first friend that stayed her friend for a long time. Though, she had many friends in the Japanese community, but I don' ; t believe anybody back from Gila River. AT: 00:18:54 And um, I' ; m wondering if this was around Clark and Division? LK: 00:18:59 Yeah, I think so. And then eventually she moved, I believe, to the Webster area. Um, the DePaul University area. And that is actually, that' ; s where my parents first um, their first apartment was on Dickens Street, uh, 842 Dickens. AT: 00:19:18 And so your, when your mother came, she came alone and she was working for a Lutheran hospital? LK: 00:19:29 Yeah, I think it was called Lutheran Deaconess and I don' ; t remember her talking about anybody that she came with from the camp. And I don' ; t even remember her talking about anybody here that was from the Fresno area. There may have been, but not that she was really close with. So she was basically alone. My mother was a very personable, um gregarious person. She, she, she was very humble, but she made friends pretty easily. So it didn' ; t surprise me that soon after she probably connected up with people and became friends. AT: 00:20:10 Did she ever tell you any stories about first coming to Chicago or do you know anything about those years when she was kind of on her own? LK: 00:20:18 Yeah, well, she' ; s one of the, they had those girls club and I think she was of the mademoiselles or ma' ; amselles and there' ; s a picture. We have a picture and they album. Um, and some of these people, you know, we' ; ve stayed in touch with. My mother has this book. They' ; re her books, there' ; s two books. And um, whenever I wonder about a person Issei Nisei, Sansei even I look them up in her book because she kept copious notes on people including like, oh, 1969 had a gallbladder attack. My mother was very fascinated with medicine. She would have probably been at a doctor if she was, if times were different, so, but it' ; s not just medicine. She just was always keeping track of people, always in touch with people by phone or by letter, copious letter writer. So, um, yeah, I, I think um, she eventually she worked there and then eventually, I don' ; t know how it came up, but she worked for the University of Illinois Medical School. And uh, for the head of the Department of Pathology, I' ; m trying to remember his name, and she talked about him a lot and she talked, she loved that job I think. LK: 00:21:36 And she, um, she' ; s talked about how she quit the job when I was, she was ready to give birth to me, so, but she eventually did more work and I can go into that later in Chicago. But um, yeah, so her early days we' ; re doing that in that book by Alice Burrata. Do you know what the collection of photos of my mother? Yes. My mother had died and the book came out. I know Alice and I bought the book and I was looking through it and there was a picture of my mother and she was in, it was a very early picture. So she must' ; ve, it was, must have been shortly after she got to Chicago and there must' ; ve been some Buddhist, um, conference in Chicago and there were a couple of, I believe Buddhist ministers and the picture and some other young people. My mother was one of them. She wasn' ; t identified, but I think the group was identifying or something. So I knew it was Buddhist group. Um, I was shocked she never talked about that. And um, I don' ; t think she thought to talk about it really. I don' ; t think it was anything she didn' ; t want to talk about. Uh, there were a lot of things like that about my mother. I think that because she didn' ; t really brag about anything and it' ; s sort of matter of fact about things. So, um, I guess that' ; s all I can recall right now about her early life. Yeah. AT: 00:23:00 And then your father, he came a bit later, was that late 40s? LK: 00:23:11 Uh, yeah, I think he came again. It was seven years after he went to New York, so I think it was like late 49, 50 or something. And um, so he came, he arrived. I don' ; t know the circumstances of, except that I understood he missed his friends. It could have been that my aunt got married and then, you know, they were moving on and then he really didn' ; t, he wanted to come and see his friends. So he came and AT: 00:23:35 His friends were in Chicago? LK: 00:23:38 Uh, in Chicago and, and my father was one of these kind of pretty laid back. Uh, so when he was in Japan, he and my aunt told him, you better leave because their friend had told her, him her that, you know, getting kind of hot on the, on the Pacific front and probably might want to leave. So my aunt had left, but children, you better leave soon and he' ; s an I, I' ; m having a lot of fun here. LK: 00:24:05 I' ; m not going to any of your friends out there. And he was working for a Chinese merchant and it' ; s kind of interesting and he was also doing a lot of um, you' ; d like to play poker and he would win and all this. And um, but he needed some money to come back and he sold his shoes and his typewriter. My, it was not really his typewriter with my aunt' ; s typewriter. They dragged from Seattle on the ship to Japan, so he sold the typewriter and my aunt' ; s typewriter to get a ticket back on that ship to come back to Chicago. Well, I mean to uh, the States, it would have been in Seattle, so he was sort of happy go lucky kind of guy. So I guess just maybe on a lark he could have said I' ; m coming to Chicago. So he did. I don' ; t know where he lived. LK: 00:24:54 He worked. He had a degree in business administration and the University of Washington. Yeah. Now I know when, I don' ; t know when he got this job, but he had this job when I was born with, with this company, North American litho, and it was a pulp printer and he was kind of an estimator of job, job estimator for ah jobs for the lithographer. And I think that was, I have vague recollections of where it was. I assume it' ; s down towards downtown somewhere and I used to go there sometimes as a child with him, but I believe my, they may, my parents may have met at some dance, Nisei dance or something, but I don' ; t really know. And it' ; s funny when you, you don' ; t really ask these things to someone and if they don' ; t tell you and even if they did as a kid, it doesn' ; t usually mean a lot. Um, so they met and they married at. Um. LK: 00:26:00 Oh, I do remember though. I found this. My father loved dancing as did my mother. And, and I think before he met my mother, he took lessons in Chicago at the Arthur Murray dance studio and he has a dance card I found it and he had a passed a number of dances and, and then he, um, I found some letter he wrote to the dance instructor that he had to take some time off. So that' ; s basically what I know about his early life. So when they married, they married at a Graham Taylor Chapel, which is at the University of Chicago, which I think a lot of Japanese married there. And curiously, my fath, my husband' ; s brother and his wife married there many years later. Um, but so they married there and then, um, honeymoon didn' ; t at Mackinac Island. And then when they came back, I remember my mother' ; s name, my father said to her, well, I guess I have to look for a job. So I guess he didn' ; t have that job with North American Litho, now that I think about it when they were married and my mother thought he had the job. So whatever job she thought he had, he didn' ; t have it by the time they went on their honeymoon and then maybe he got that job with the lithographer after that. AT: 00:27:28 And you said you weren' ; t sure where he settled when he first came to Chicago? LK: 00:27:31 No, I' ; m not. No, but I think the answer lies somewhere in the house that I' ; m cleaning out in Albany Park, which they purchased in 1963, um in Chicago here, however, um, it, it' ; s full of stuff. My sister, my late sister lived in that house and uh, so I' ; ve inherited this house, which I' ; m cleaning out, but I grew up in, part of my childhood was living in that house. So I' ; ve been finding things and I, I believe I, I, there might be some information there. AT: 00:28:09 And so you were born in 53 when your parents were in the Lincoln Park area. Um, do you do you, how long were you all there for? LK: 00:28:20 Yes. Um, so I lived there until I was about five years old or so. They moved from there to 1414 West School Street, which is a, well Lakeview but Wrigleyville now. And again, it' ; s one of those funny things that we lived there before it became popular and unaffordable. So we lived in a two flat that was owned by a Japanese, a couple, the Tomiyamas and uh, they were, I suppose they were Issei, but they were, they had children, but the children were older than us. They were ah, I think the youngest was. LK: 00:29:03 Well, I started kindergarten there, so the youngest of those children may have been almost out of grade school. Um, so we lived in this place and um, my sister, by that time, my sister, my sister was born in Lincoln Park on Dickinson, so she would, she was three years younger, so she must' ; ve been two years old, when I was five. We moved in and um, my parents this, this little school in our district was Hamilton, great school, but my mother felt it was, it was about a mile walk and my mother was concerned about this and somehow they decided that they' ; d like us to go to Hawthorne Elementary. So we went to Hawthorne. Um, and the funny thing is you had to be in the district and, and so I don' ; t know how my mother met these people, but they lived in the district. They were a, a Caucasian couple and they had children and they said, well, why don' ; t you use our address as your address? LK: 00:30:11 So we used this address. I had to memorize this address. He gave me a lot of anxiety. Probably I' ; ve stricken it from my memory because it, I can' ; t remember, but I could probably walk you to this address. I think it was down on school street. So we, I started going to school in Hawthorne at Hawthorne Elementary, um, about, uh, think about three years, maybe it was an eight. I was eight years old in third grade or something. We found out that we were, um, didn' ; t have this address because it was another address we are using. I don' ; t know why my parents did this and uh, I do recall a spraining my ankle, maybe I was six years old and they had to call my parents and my father and my mother had called my father to come home and get me because I think my sister was an infant or I don' ; t recall what it was and she couldn' ; t leave the house. LK: 00:31:09 So my father was trying to get over to the school in time to pick me up. But I heard this very well. The gym teacher had me holding me at the street thinking maybe we' ; ll, he' ; ll take me home. And I was really, really, really scared because I was going to go home to this family that didn' ; t look like my family at all. And um, my father came. It was sort of like a superhero kind of thing. He, he drove up, got me and we went home. So we got through that. But by third grade, um, my sister' ; s in kindergarten I guess, and they said, um, they called me to the office, the principal' ; s office had to leave in the middle of the class in midday and my sister was sitting in there too, so she was called out and we were told go home and I mean, years later I thought about this. LK: 00:32:09 I thought this is pretty cool, but it' ; s also, I don' ; t know if there' ; s any kind of racial thing attached and what not, but it was really, really strange. I could go home with someone if I had a broken ankle, but when I found out that there was some weird stuff and I agree, it was weird. Uh, they told us to go home in midday. So I took my sister by the hand and we walked home alone. Then you' ; ll know crossing guards, right? AT: 00:32:38 You were still about about eight? LK: 00:32:41 Yeah. Yeah. And by this time my brother is seven years younger. So my brother wants to have been an infant and he was at home with my mother and there' ; s no phone with you being, I mean I wouldn' ; t even know that they didn' ; t even call my parents, they didn' ; t call my mother. And because when we came home and rang the bell, I don' ; t even think I had a key and my mother opened the door and she was shocked. LK: 00:33:09 And then I told her eight years old, I told her what happened. I, you know, I can' ; t remember what they told me. I just knew enough, mother knew enough that you know, what had happened and then she tried to get us to finish out. I think it was towards the end of the school year, so I think she went to school and try to get us to let please could they just finish off the school year, but they wouldn' ; t. So we had to go to this Hawth, ah Hamilton. And so we had to walk about a mile to school to this Hamilton. I don' ; t know how my mother managed it with my brother. Was it pretty hard? I think. I think she found, I don' ; t really know what happened and we went to Hamilton and we actually, I have to say I liked it better because if the principal was nice. Now how did I know the principal was nice, it' ; s probably because the principal chewed us out at the other school. And I do remember my sister and we used to call the principal at Hawthorne, a hotdog and the principal at Hamilton kind of like a hamburger could he was round and smaller and that guy over there wish tall and thin. And um, we matriculated into the school and um, you know, I think it was a little more laid back there. LK: 00:34:28 I don' ; t know, there' ; s something how you, it' ; s funny how you feel things differently. So that' ; s how, you know, went to school there. And then eventually my parents purchased this house in Albany Park in 63 and we moved there, um, and 63. And um, how much closer was Hawthorne to your home? LK: 00:34:52 Um, I think it must' ; ve been a bit closer. We had to cross, the problem was crossing a busy street, Southport. But you know, it' ; s funny because I always talk about, I have a friend who I talked about maybe doing the walk because she hasn' ; t lived in Chicago all the time now, but she and I were Brownies together and we used to walk and she went to Hawthorne, so we were going to do the walk, meaning from my house to the, to the school and then over to where we think Brownies was and then over to her house. And um, uh, so I' ; m thinking it, it. Well, it, it' ; s, it' ; s not as far as Clark, um, what is that street Sedgwick perhaps? Is that a north west street? North, south. North, south, yeah. So I think it' ; s Sedgwick to basically Southport. That' ; s the distance. And then the other school would have been from School Street, which is about two blocks east of Ashland to Cornelia, Cornelia and Ashland or so I think it' ; s further how much far over there. I don' ; t know, it probably isn' ; t that much, but for some reason my parents or my mother, I feel I have a feeling that was my mother' ; s idea. Why is that? LK: 00:36:28 Um, my mother would talk to lot of people and get ideas and she was always very open and kind of imagined to inventive. Remember was very inventive. Um, my father was more quiet sort and working and all that. He probably wasn' ; t communicating as much. As far as your recollection of Lakeview. Can you describe just that community? A little bit. Sure. I liked it. I had a um, uh, well, yeah. So it' ; s, um, uh, was it just an ah Chicago neighborhood. I used to, we had people on the street, kids on the street that there were no Asians, no Japanese, certainly, um, and uh, mostly German. And the funny thing is I didn' ; t realize how significant that was until I went to Germany as an adult old. I' ; ve been to Germany five times business and pleasure and a company with my husband. And uh, when I went to Germany first I like languages and I thought, well, I think I' ; ll study a little German. LK: 00:37:41 And I was surprised how I could pick it up and I had a German friend in Chicago at the time and we were speaking. I would practice with him. And he said, wow, you' ; re picking it up. Well, I think if you lived in Germany, pick it up quickly. And I said, well, why? I studied French, a little bit of Japanese, the Japanese, because my parents sent me to Japanese language school and uh, some Russian and I read German was not a language that I felt comfortable with, but somehow this him and then I, it occurred to me all my friends at that formative age or German as their parents were German and so they were going to school. Um, they were going, they were speaking German when they would go home, when the kids to go home to each other' ; s home. And I' ; d hear German all the time. LK: 00:38:34 And the other funny thing is I do a lot of um, why do a lot of figure skating for many years. And I was at the rink some years ago, six years ago and sitting, putting my skates on and there' ; s friends that I made friends. We' ; re both were the same age and we. But I didn' ; t know that. And we started chatting and one thing led to another and it turned out we went to Hawthorne together. She but what we' ; re baby boomers, so at that time there were lots of kids so there' ; d be two or three kindergarten classes or whatnot, so she was in the other kindergarten class, so I didn' ; t really wasn' ; t really in a class with her, but we put things two things together because her father is German and she would ice skate that school, like all schools would make an ice skating rink on the premises. LK: 00:39:24 And that' ; s what you did at winter time. That' ; s where I learned how to ice cream to five years old and she was, I was probably ice skating with her and her father was the only adult there. Standing around in a big overcoat was German. He ice skated and I remembered him. That' ; s weird that he or she is Heidi. So I said to Heidi, uh, you know, I had a lot of friends. It' ; s a German girls and boys I guess too, but I remembered this particular, some German girls in my class, they were always very quiet and she said, well, that' ; s because we didn' ; t speak English. She said when we came, we went to school and were just plopped down in kindergarten and we didn' ; t speak English, so that' ; s funny because that reminded me of going to Hawthorne and there were Japanese kids in our class, Japanese American kids, and we were all sitting LK: 00:40:17 the kindergarten teacher put us in a round and round table, all the other kids who were at long tables. And there were about four of us at this round table and I took this to mean that it was wonderful that we' ; re so special. We got the round table and everyone else had to sit on the long tables. I don' ; t know what it meant. I never felt anything bad. Anything strange about this teacher. I think she was quite lovely. I thought, um, but she, maybe she put us there because she thought we would relate to each other, but oddly it was a German people who couldn' ; t speak and they should have been at the roundtable because they only spoke German and they probably would have felt more comfortable. We felt. But she could tell us who we were. So she put us at the round table. LK: 00:41:03 Were you friends with other Japanese American students? Um, yes. Yeah, yeah. We became friends. The other weird thing is that, um, so a lot of the communities or through the churches, right. And My mother, so my father was raised a Christian, um, and I, I just went to the church that my grandparents went to in Seattle because I go back there. It' ; s a long story about that. But anyway, I know where my father, he, he probably went to. Well, my aunt, I know went to the, I think it' ; s the Episcopalian church there, but the other church, Japanese Christian church, my grandparents went to and maybe my aunt, my grandma, my un, father, excuse me. So they were raised Christian. My mother was raised Buddhist. So when we were born, when I was born, my mother, I think felt, that we should belong to a church, but she was very conflicted. LK: 00:41:55 So she ended up taking us to like Tri C or some of these Japanese Christian churches. And then I got to be friends also with some of these kids because I think that most of the kids in this class were Christian. The Japanese Christian. Uh, subsequently we ended up going to the Buddhist temple, the Chicago Midwest, Buddhist Temple of Chicago when I was more, um, when we moved to Albany Park because I think my mother ran into someone who said you should be coming to the Buddhist temple. We' ; re going to see what was going. And then even more curiously, my father lost, well it' ; s not curious, but my father had a degenerative eye disease. He had to quit work in the sixties and my mother had to go to work and she was very concerned because my brother was quite young in Albany Park we were living there. It' ; s very predominantly Jewish neighborhood. LK: 00:42:43 So the neighbor across the street said, you know, they' ; re looking for a secretary for the, for the rabbi at Temple Beth Israel in Albany Park. So my mother worked, ended up getting a job there because it' ; s very close. And she worked for the Jewish temple for 15 years. So we became, we didn' ; t convert to Judaism or anything like that, but we had a lot of Jew, Jewish culture in our family in Albany Park. But um, as a result of that, in prior to that, my mother was, she worked as a tupperware lady and was a very successful one. She had like awards, so my mother wasn' ; t, when you, the question about having Japanese friends kind of triggered my thoughts about who we were friends with and who might parents were friends with and my mother kind of crossed cultures quite a bit. Um, so back to Lakeview. LK: 00:43:40 Yeah, I do remember it was very German, but I never felt out of place. My friends on the block, none of them were Japanese, but the family that owned the, a two flat it was actually sort of a three flat because they had converted the basement into an apartment and then those people down in the basement apartment were Japanese or Japanese too Japanese national, married to a Japanese American. And they had children that were younger than us while they were more my sister' ; s age. So, um, those were the other people in our neighborhood. A immediate block. And you mentioned going to a Japanese school as well. When and where? Yeah, that was at that time too. So my mother, I think a somehow felt that we should go to Japanese school, learned some language that would be me, my sister, I don' ; t believe had the pleasure of going and I' ; ll say, so we didn' ; t go to actually a school. LK: 00:44:42 We had a tutor so we were semi, there was another family, we' ; re going to this, uh, the Kato' ; s, we were going to this woman' ; s apartment in Lakeview area. Um, I think it was off of Addison and we' ; d walk over there and uh, have, be tutored. But the thing about this tutor, I remember she had senbei uh, that' ; s, I always remember food and that I really liked that. And then we learned these words and write, but we didn' ; t have any real communication. We didn' ; t do a lot of conversation. So, um, and then afterwards they go to the store and my friend and we' ; d get pumpkin seeds across the street. So I just remember for that kind of stuff and I didn' ; t last very long. How long were you enrolled there? I don' ; t believe I was in there very long. I don' ; t know if it was one or two years. I don' ; t know what happened. I don' ; t know if I was a lousy student, so my parents, mother said uh forget it, or my mother, they didn' ; t have the money to, you know, because as I mentioned, my father started losing this sight and eventually had to quit work. So I didn' ; t really know all this. My father had to quit driving about the time when we were in Lake, I think Lakeview Um, LK: 00:46:07 yeah, I think or even before that he couldn' ; t drive and my parents had this old Oldsmobile. Well it' ; s like from the fifties. So my mother had to learn how to drive and she was fine with that. My mother' ; s very athletic too, so I think she didn' ; t mind learning how to drive, so she ended up doing a lot of the driving from that point on. Um, but yeah, so the school was, I don' ; t remember much except I don' ; t even remember the name of the lady. AT: 00:46:39 Were there other ways that you see now that you were connected to Japanese heritage while growing up? LK: 00:46:50 Besides like my grandfather. So my grandparents died when I was probably around five, both of them had died by the time I was about five or six. Um, these are the grandparents on my father' ; s side. My grandfather, the one who was a chef, he contracted tuberculosis at one point in time. I don' ; t know whether he had to leave the camp or when it was, but he had, he was in a sanatorium for tuberculosis and lost his hearing. I remember him vaguely in the house, in the apartment, LK: 00:47:30 in Lakeview because I would have to show him things. My grandmother had died in Seattle, but my father went out for that funeral and uh, but I was pretty young so I didn' ; t really learn a lot of Japanese uh from them or uh culture. Um, but my grandfather, my mother' ; s father lived til the mid seventies and he, uh, I think he died when he was 80, 88 or 89 and he would write. He learned how to, when he came to the states, I believe he went to Selma High School and he got a degree, a high school degree. And uh, he had beautiful handwriting. So he was able to write to me and speak somewhat in English. And he would take trips to Chicago on the Santa Fe railroad cars. He loved the Santa Fe. AT: 00:48:34 Where was he living? LK: 00:48:35 He was, he, after the war he went to, he left the camp and went back to, it was Selma, California, which is a little larger, small town outside of Del, next to Del Rey, where they were from and outside of Fresno. LK: 00:48:50 And he eventually settled there in a house with my uncle who after he left the war and went back to, um, you know, after he was discharged from the army. What was he doing for work? Did he continue farming? My grandfather I think basically ended up doing some gardening and for someone. Um, but he didn' ; t do any more of the grape farming. And my grandfather, my uncle that was my grandfather, my uncle, when he went back to the West Coast, uh, started a welding business with a Nisei partner. So they had this welding, a Muffler n' ; Welding business in Selma. And that' ; s what he retired from. Um, he, they told him they had, when they went back to ah Selma, there was a family there who took in, uh, they had, they had an established business like a grocery business, the Tori' ; s before the war and they had property. So when people came out of the war and they went back to that area, their friends and these were close friends with my grandfather and grandmother. They had a lot of the people stayed in this property until they could find a place to stay. I got the impression it was kind of like a warehouse or something. Um, and so that' ; s where they moved. And then my uncle and grandfather lived together. My grandfather LK: 00:50:29 would take the bus and I don' ; t think he even drove after that. Um, I remember my mother saying that after you wanted the camp, I guess is one thing I remember he turned completely white. His hair combed, turned completely white. So my grandfather, back to your question about heritage and Japanese, uh, he would send things. He would send things all the time from Japan, from, from the um, uh, Fresno area who does little house they had was a, my mother called it a shack. I mean, it basically had like a attached outhouse and I stayed there and um, and when I visited in college and um, my brother and sister too, and he, he, um, he had all these Japanese things he would do. He was, I could see how my mother got his inventive things because. So my uncle liked to fish my, I always say my father, my father' ; s side, my aunt who' ; s still living, she' ; s very liberal and lived in the Bay Area, all these lives and she loved the sea otter and my uncle hated the sea otter because the sea otter ate the abalone and he used to like beautiful fish for abalone and if you know people that live in the Central Valley that tend to be kind of more a red neck or more, uh, conservative, put it that way. LK: 00:51:54 So my uncle was going out to, he would go to this moral bay where the sea otter, they were quite prolific there at one time and go there. So we' ; re the abalone. So he would fish for these abalone and bring them back. And at that time they were huge. I have a lot of these shelves and that if you look at an abalone shell, it' ; s a univalve, you know, it' ; s like a snail and um, when the muscle comes out of the abalone, there' ; s holes for the muscles were held, so now you have a shell with holes and my uncle and grandfather would take these abalone shells and my grandpa, you know, from my uncle' ; s fishing expeditions and put them in at various places in this garden that he converted into kind of a small raisin farm. Um, and they had trees because everybody in California those days would have fruit trees and apple. There were orange trees I think, and walnut trees. And he had these grapevines and he would use these abalone shells as a way to irrigate because if you put them at strategic places in the garden, you could put the hose into the abalone shell and then the holes would spread out the water. So he would do things like that. And a lot of the stuff I think he was doing otherwise too was very Japanese. And when I visited him he one time-- so I would cook. And when I was there, LK: 00:53:26 especially when I was younger, I' ; d make him pie or whatever. And one day I was looking for this pot, if you then want to have him there, my uncle was a bachelor so that in my grandfather, the two of them are living there and they don' ; t have a lot of things that my mother had would have in the kitchen back home. So I was looking for this one pot and I couldn' ; t find it. And my grandfather, we had this interesting way of communicating. It' ; s broken English and whatnot. And so I kept asking him for the pot and he said, " ; Oh, okay." ; And then he starts going into the, into the yard, and I was following him saying, " ; Grandpa, grandpa the pot, the pot, he goes way back into the yard, back in this place where there' ; s dirt and he starts digging. I think, oh my, I don' ; t know what' ; s going on. LK: 00:54:09 And he pulls out the pot. So here' ; s the pot. So he takes it back to the kitchen to wash it off. And then he goes to the bookshelf, he pulls out a Japanese book. It' ; s all in Japanese. And I think it was like, like how to do anything in your house kind of how to book. And he opens it up and there' ; s a picture of a Japanese woman in a kimono in the garden with a pot. So it turned out that the pot, if you put, of course it' ; s bacteria and all this stuff in the dirt, right? So if you have a really a pot that has a lot of stuff on it, I' ; m like, you can' ; t get off with Brillo or whatever. You don' ; t want to to stick it in the garden and put it in dirt and after awhile you' ; ll, you' ; ll come out clean. So years later I hear my husband, you know, had the, um, I know he cooked something on the barbecue grill. LK: 00:55:09 I said, put it in the vegetable gardening. It was dirt and I said, just dig a hole and put it in there. And it cleans it off. So we do this from time to time if it' ; s during the summer. So those are kind of Japanese things under, but I don' ; t know. Um, he would send us books. And I know my mother had various things she would do, she would be one of the Japanese Nisei women who would make all the New Year' ; s dinner feast. AT: 00:55:38 And when she would cook for you, these meals, were you eating a lot of Japanese food? LK: 00:55:45 She was kind of a, uh, she, uh, yeah. So until you get older that you realize, oh, we didn' ; t do that. So a lot of my Japanese friends, Sansei friends, they' ; d say, oh, I can' ; t go a day without rice or I can' ; t go, and I had an Italian friend who said I can' ; t go three days without pasta. So then I' ; m hearing this from my Japanese friends LK: 00:56:03 Oh, I couldn' ; t go. But my mother didn' ; t make rice all the time, but uh, she didn' ; t. But then she had certain things she always made rice with and certain things she didn' ; t. And as a result I kind of liked rice but, but I wasn' ; t a lover of rice. I like potatoes more and um, but she would like kind of make hamburgers kind of with and then make a pot of rice. And I always thought, why can' ; t we have him with bread? You know? But then she would sometimes make hamburgers, but it was sort of like, I' ; ll make hamburgers with bread, with French fries because you make our own French fries. I' ; ll make hamburger patties that you put, shoyu on with rice. So she had things like that. But um, yeah, she was, I think it was harder on her too because my father was from Seattle and until I got older I didn' ; t realize, wow, the, the Japanese from Seattle, are very different from the Japanese, from central California or from California for that matter. LK: 00:57:01 So, you know, landlocked central California, you don' ; t get a lot of fish. So my mother, she would cook fish but not as much as they cooked fish in Seattle. In fact, my grandmother fished. She would go into the Puget Sound. She goes, she was also pretty bold. And when in a rowboat with my grandfather and fish. So. AT: 00:57:24 As far as um shopping for food and things like that. Do you have memories of Japanese grocery stores? LK: 00:57:36 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. My mother would go both to Star Market or York Superfoods. I think it was called York Superfoods. Um, but mainly to Yorks, because my mother, I think the husband, I believe that' ; s Helen Fukuda was married. She was married to Tom Fukuda. But I think they were divorced eventually. But Tom Fukuda owned this gas. He owned that gas standard gas station. There' ; s a photo of it. It' ; s where Ginos East is. LK: 00:58:09 Do you know where it is? It was a pretty strategic location. Again, another place that would cost a lot to own now, but I think he owned that property. My mother would go over there and get gas and I think they go back to somehow California or the or maybe Japan somehow. So my mother would patronize those establishments. And Helen was a real character. I remember going in there and uh, there was even at my husband, I got married in the seventies and we would go there with my mother and together and he was amazed because she would have in a barrel, you know, tofu floating around. And they used to put, choose to put the tofu in a plastic bag, always reminded me of going to the fish store, the where you would get an aquarium fish because they put it in a plastic bag and she would put it in the plastic bag and tied in and I think in a Chinese food container or something. We' ; d get tofu there. LK: 00:59:07 We' ; d get various things. She would frequently give my mother the egg sack from a fish for my dad to bake. My mother liked to bake it. My dad liked it and she' ; d bake it for my dad. We' ; d never eat that. It stunk too much. Um, uh, various things, botan ame, is that what it' ; s called? That Japanese candy in the box. The sticky yellow, red candy with the prize inside and the, and then the loose caramels. But usually we like that one better. Um, so yeah, I love that store because it was so homespun. AT: 00:59:49 Um, and so have you been in Chicago since your childhood? LK: 00:59:54 Oh yes, all my life. Um, briefly studied away. Uh, but really I went to, I went to. So I went to three grammar, grammar schools and eventually I went to the Halogen and, and finished grammar school there and then went to Roosevelt High in Albany Park. LK: 01:00:11 So always schools in Chicago and CPS. And then, um, I went to Circle, went to the University of Illinois at Chicago, um, for my undergraduate and I graduated in 75. And so I met my husband. Eventually I worked in Chicago and Northwestern various I went to, I worked at Marshall Fields that worked at Jewell Food. Know I worked, I worked for Nobi' ; s gift shop, which is another Japanese establishment. And my good friend Janet is the daughter of the Mr. and Mrs Matsumoto started that, a gift shop on Harlem Avenue in Elmwood Park. So I worked a lot. And uh, eventually, uh, after about, I guess it was 1979, started a graduate school at UIC and I got my PhD in 84. And then I in that, I think as an Undergrad I studied in Colorado one summer for Rocky Mountain Biological Life I studied in Woods Hole. But I basically lived in Chicago all my life with my husband. AT: 01:01:25 Did you continue involvement with any Japanese American churches or. LK: 01:01:30 Yeah. So when my father died and my mother is still living, my mother felt that he should have a Buddhist, a kind of ceremony. So they, the ceremony was at the, um, all the while, they, uh, the, the funeral home in Lakeview on Belmont and Greenwood, Greenwood Greenfield. Uh, and uh, so it was a Dr., uh Reverend Kobose, I think did the ceremony or was it Reverend, maybe Ashikaga, but Kobose' ; s were still there. They came and, uh, as did their son. So they were all. That was in 95' ; and then we went onto, um, then. So when he died, my aunt, my mother had to [inaudible], then I went to this kind of connected back with the Buddhist Temple Chicago since I haven' ; t really been going too much, but, uh, also got active in the j, some of what with the Japanese, JASC, Japanese American Service Committee. My mother was active, kind of. She, she loved them and she would contribute. But when my father became more disabled, she had to stay home all the time so she couldn' ; t do as much. AT: 01:02:50 Why is that involvement something that you think maybe your mother valued and that you felt? LK: 01:02:58 Um, I, to tell you the truth. I think I really pulled away. Not, not that I said I don' ; t want anything to do with the Japanese community, but I just got involved in so many other things. I, um, I didn' ; t really do a lot in my. I had Japanese American generally have Japanese American friends and very close to, um, high school friends. Some grade school. Um, but, um, they, uh, I think it' ; s interesting, those friends from high school, they aren' ; t also involved in community so much. I guess our lives let us elsewhere and it wasn' ; t until I got back in, my parents died that I started to kind of get back to the community. I think I missed some of that. Might my mother died. It might be in four years. My husband who' ; s Caucasian and I lost our four parents in four years' ; time, before we were 45 years old. LK: 01:03:58 So it' ; s kind of an early time for one to lose their parents, all of their parents in fact, and I think I needed to be around Nisei and then I learned, I have to say I learned a lot more about my Japanese heritage by coming back to the Japanese community or just coming to the Japanese community as an adult. Um, but I, I think the Soka Society at the Buddhist Temple in Chicago has been just great and helped me quite a bit. Then at the end they' ; re dwindling, I will say, and either moving away or passing on. Um, but I, I, I, that' ; s basically what I feel personally. And then I' ; ve learned a lot about things through Alphawood, here, I mean, I learned so much from this exhibit and the tours that I' ; ve taken, um, and doing my own research now. So I think it' ; s really important learning about myself as well as my parents, my family. LK: 01:05:01 And so, so it sounds like a lot of your, um, your interest both in kind of the community but also the history, it sounds relatively recent. Um, have you, um, can you tell me a little bit about how you think, um, maybe the incarceration experience and or the experience of resettlement, um, are there any ways that you' ; ve seen, um, kind of like an intergenerational impact of these experiences play out in your own life? LK: 01:05:55 Yeah, I can see how, so on the sad side, I, I can see how through this Alphawood exhibit as well as the art of Gaman and other and visiting the National Japanese American Museum. And, and in more recent years people sharing their stories and I see how my, how much hurt my parents probably suffered through and how difficult it was for them and coming from poverty. It really is, especially in my mother' ; s case. I think um, how much it impacted the way that they raised us, even though they didn' ; t talk about it but what they wanted for us. And you know, I had lots of, um, I think my mother and I had very similar, had similar personalities and energy level and, and we, we clashed quite a bit, we argued quite a bit. And, uh, and then my mother died rather suddenly what happened is she had a fall, fell downstairs in the home and ended up being a, going out, having surgery to remove pressure on her brain. LK: 01:07:08 She never really recovered from that and died. So it was really an accident that took her life and uh, it was so sudden. And, and it was when I, again, when I, um, it was right after I had started on the recovery from breast cancer. So it was a very traumatic time. And at that time too, my mother was taking care of my uncle who had Alzheimer' ; s disease in California, so she wasn' ; t home. She was going out to California a lot. So I didn' ; t really get a chance in those last year or two before she died to really see her much even and talk to her. And so I didn' ; t have a lot of answers. And now that I see what I learn more, I see how, yeah, some of the choices she made, some of the things she did was because of that and, and how she passed on these things. LK: 01:08:01 Um entered through the generations and uh, I wish I knew more about what happened to my parents, grandparents in Japan and how they came to. So I think we carry a legacy with us generations. Um, but I also think on the positive side that once you recognize some of these things for what they are fundamentally, um, one can heal and address so I don' ; t have children and I, I realize I think too children, my husband also, not to go into any detail, but he had a traumatic childhood and I think both. That was one of the reasons we both didn' ; t have children, although we really, um really focused a lot on our careers and I for a long time I thought we did that to avoid it. Um, we did that and that' ; s why we didn' ; t. But I think it was also we knew we couldn' ; t do it deep, deep down to have children. LK: 01:08:59 I think it was very we were still suffering a lot from what we didn' ; t know that was handed down and to also we were caretakers to our family and my father was losing his sight. He, for much of my childhood, even though, um, when he started quit driving, um, he couldn' ; t see what he constantly had bruises all over his legs and he was walking into things. So we, we learned not to put knives on the side and we learned how to deal with the person who was not abled. And my father, my husband had an, a disabled parent as well. So I think as caretakers and also through what, well, World War II generation, you know, parents and um specifically my parents gen, um the incarceration and my grandparents, um, it had an effect. So we' ; re not, we don' ; t have children to teach, but we do both of us and myself. LK: 01:10:08 I do a lot of mentoring. I, um, I most recently had decided I think I really want to focus too on really Japanese and Asian women because I do a lot of women' ; s work, volunteer work through my professional work and a young people especially, um, generations of young, not just the millennials, which would be probably my children' ; s generation, but the ones in between too the Gen xers and stuff. So I think that' ; s how I' ; m trying to use what I' ; ve learned about my own situation to try to heal and stop sort of the bleeding in a way, you know, the festering and I think a lot of what the Japanese have gone through, the Japanese Americans, the Japanese in America, have gone through, can resonate to other immigrants, other to women, I think women and as women we suffer a lot as the caretakers, as the family members. So that' ; s the way I think this exhibit has also moved things along for me. AT: 01:11:20 And if you could leave some kind of legacy or message yourself for generations to come, what do you hope, to know or understand? LK: 01:11:39 I think um, to really embrace the gray that things are not black and white and that' ; s certainly true racial, but I don' ; t mean it so much racially or I need it more in terms of extreme, right and left conservative, liberal, Black or white. However way you want to describe the extreme. The gray, a, the one thing that I' ; ve found because it really, I never have been a black and white present, been in the gray, but that' ; s really hard to be in the great when people want to be in the black and white, they want to peg you. They want to. But that' ; s a kind of a gift that I had. I think I' ; m able to see that. And uh, so I think being in the gray, it makes you see the Black and fight for what they are and help bring the white to the gray and the Black to the gray in the middle. LK: 01:12:37 Uh, not to say that middle of the road is the way it should go because I know people that say that uh I' ; m not, I don' ; t do that. I don' ; t do this. Not that at all. It' ; s just an attitude to just be. It' ; s an open minded attitude because if you' ; re there then you' ; ll see something that will peak your interest. And I think to be there you need to be, well certainly open minded, but you need to have a lot of exposure. So you need to put yourself out there and be in uncomfortable places with people that maybe you find uncomfortable to be with or maybe people outside a stuff you' ; ve been doing otherwise all your life. So to this point, um. So my sister had died. She now almost to this day, she died two years ago and um, prior to that, um, things were happening and my sister was suffering from a long illness, cancer, and I was suffering quite a bit. LK: 01:13:40 I' ; m from worry of her and so all these other things that happened in my life. And I, um, my husband and I decided to go to Second City to improv and we grow and we liked it so much. We, we continued it and we finished the improv training center and then we continued on and we did. We just finished actually last week we finished a year of their program and acting and did a lot of storytelling or I' ; d done a lot writing. And my husband was taking film. Now we' ; ve, it, this is, we' ; re not, we' ; re both artists at heart. We learned because we both, that' ; s how we bonded. We were both artistic and we love art, but we' ; re both, our professions are not that way. My husband is a planetree, and I am a biologist, a businessperson and um, but the thing is that, that opened up my acceptance of me and I' ; ve gone back to my art which I left. LK: 01:14:42 I left at a younger age because I think it was so emotional and difficult and it turns out my family is very artistic and in I found many, many things art in music in this house. Even my grandmother was an art, musician, the one who died when my mother was 13. So I think to be open and to be explored exploring life will enable you to, if you have any things to meet, more needs to heal, help heal that as well as be a very, a great contributor to society and you pass it on a little to the next generation, whatever that whoever that is and then it doesn' ; t necessarily mean it' ; s Japanese. But I think the Japanese Americans can get a lot from that. And I actually feel I' ; m very grateful to be a Japanese person. Um, because it, I think we have a lot there that enables us to do that. AT: 01:15:43 Thank you so much again for coming in and for sharing. Before we wrap up, is there anything that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? LK: 01:15:52 Oh, no, I just, I' ; m really happy that in my lifetime there' ; s been this opportunity to learn more this much and uh, I think, uh, yeah, I, I just think thank you for this opportunity. AT: 01:16:11 Thank you so much Linda. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawanoLinda20171101.xml KawanoLinda20171101.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Title
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Kawano, Linda (11/1/2017)
Date
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2017-11-01
Format
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/57aac1d6cf6ebb7e81a60fc37333a3fc.jpg
e905f857673bcdd45028e482647ce184
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Keaveney, Hiroki
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/1/2017 Keaveney, Hiroki (9/1/2017) 1:20:19 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Keaveney, Hiroki Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307907161 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307907161?h=9a9789f036" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 Thank you. Could start by you stating your name. Hiroki Keaveney: 00:00:04 Yeah. My name is Hiroki Kimiko Keaveney. Um, yeah, my middle name is my grandma' ; s name, and then Hiroki I recently changed my name to, um, yeah. AT: 00:00:15 And, and where are you from? HK: 00:00:18 Uh, I grew up in Ohio, but I was born out in California and I' ; ve been living on the west coast, um, in different cities for the past like eight years or so. And recently came back to the Midwest. AT: 00:00:31 Okay, and just for context, can you help me out with where you were in Ohio and then California and when you came to Chicago? HK: 00:00:40 Yeah, so I was born in LA area. Um, when I was four we moved out to Ohio. I lived there till I was 18. I went to school in Seattle. And then, um, I moved to LA to be near my grandparents actually cause I wanted to learn, um, my history, cause I grew up in the Midwest with my Irish family, but I didn' ; t really know anything about my Japanese American family. I knew we were part of the internment, but I, I mean, you know how it is. So I honestly didn' ; t really know the full story. And so really the choice of moving there was to record their stories, to learn it from them. And I' ; m really lucky because my family has recorded a lot in the Densho website, which is a gift that I know a lot of people don' ; t have. Um, so anyway, um, so I lived in LA and then I moved to the Bay Area, like San Francisco/Oakland, and I went to school there and then I moved to Washington DC and Donald Trump became the president. So I' ; m really lucky with work that I was able to leave Virginia and moved to the Midwest, to Illinois, for my job. So yeah, I hope that helps with the - AT: 00:01:48 Yeah, of course. HK: 00:01:49 Okay. AT: 00:01:49 And, so when, when exactly did you arrive to Chicago then? How long have you been here? HK: 00:01:54 Uh, April. So, is that half a year now, or five months? Six months. April, May, June, July, August, five months. Yeah. AT: 00:02:04 Okay. Um, awesome. Yeah. So then if you want to, I' ; d love to hear more about your family story and, and what you have learned about your family' ; s history. HK: 00:02:19 Yeah. Um, sometimes you wonder why you are the way you are and like why none of your family lives near each other, and why there were so many family secrets and why your family is dysfunctional to be honest. And learning my family story about internment and their deportation cause they were no-no boys and um, yeah, like it just, it gave me so much compassion for my family and for my mom and for myself. And that' ; s why these are so important because it' ; s like this is the historical context that like heals because, yeah, it sucks that our community kept it silent for so long. Um, yeah. So yeah. Cause it' ; s crazy how I think a lot of people, non-Japanese people always want to learn this sensational like internment story of like you didn' ; t have bathrooms or like the stalls didn' ; t, you know, like salacious. Is that a word? Salacious details? Um, I dunno if it cause it makes people feel sad or connected or what, but it' ; s not really that interesting. It' ; s sad. But, um, I was actually talking to, I did an ethnic studies program at San Francisco State and I was talking to my coordinator who is super awesome. She like helped found ethnic studies and she and I were talking about how, um, what' ; s more interesting about the internment is the after effects of the generations following. Um, because like, yeah, it' ; s amazing how much it psychologically wounded us as a community. Um, amazing is the wrong word. It' ; s, um, yeah. Um, I' ; m don' ; t think I' ; m answering your question. AT: 00:04:11 No, that' ; s, that' ; s all good. HK: 00:04:13 What was your question? AT: 00:04:15 It doesn' ; t matter. I don' ; t know. HK: 00:04:17 It does matter. Wait your question. Oh, my family story. Okay. So, it kind of like came out of, um, I did a lot of organizing when I lived in Seattle, like with Queer and Trans, um, like Asian-Americans, Asian and Pacific Islanders and specifically Japanese Americans. And I did like a lot of pilgrimage work when I was there. Like I went to Minidoka, the internment camp that Seattle lights were incarcerated in and Bainbridge people, near Seattle, they were incarcerated and Manzanar, and then many petitioned to be moved to Minidoka. So it was interesting like having that connection because my family was incarcerated in Manzanar. But um, so anyway, I always knew since I was like in fourth grade when we learned about World War II that I wanted to go to an internment camp with my family. Like I knew we were incarcerated, but growing up in Ohio really isolated, like it was hard. It was hard. I didn' ; t really know any other Japanese students. There was one person named Kelsey Miyahara and her brother and then my sister and my school had like 3000 students, like my high school and we were like the four Japanese American students, um, to my knowledge anyway. And, yeah, it was just hard, like being so disconnected. And so by the time I got to California and like had done like a lot of organizing and being really politicized in Seattle, um, like as a queer person of color. Like I came down to LA and I tried recording my family story. Even had like fucking, oh sorry, language. I even had like cassette tapes and stuff. I was like trying to like record their stories. But my grandmother had dementia pretty bad by then. So, but what was interesting about her dementia was she could remember the past, she couldn' ; t remember the present and so, or like she, she was always in the present. That' ; s weird. What about Alzheimer' ; s. They' ; re always in the present, which is like in Buddhism the ideal. But anyway, it had its good and bad moments. But um, but yeah, she always told me stories about World War II. I learned that, so my grandma, she, how do I say this? I like want to tell you my story, but it' ; s so complicated that I don' ; t, yeah, I' ; m not sure chronologically what would make the most sense, but basically the short story is like what I learned is that my family has been through a lot and they' ; re really amazing. The amount that they' ; ve survived and like how they were able to make meaning out of just being handed a really bad deal. Like, and how they tried to uphold their family values even though, yeah, it' ; s just really complicated. Um, like my grandfather became a no-no boy because my great grandmother wanted him to. He would have fought in the 442nd, but he wanted to be a good Japanese son. He was the oldest son and you know, um, each of the siblings chose different paths. One sibling Anna, she stayed, oh, Anna, she stayed here in the states. She got married in an internment camp, cause they would have been undocumented citizens if they had stayed, um, because they lost their citizenship with the, um, questionnaire. HK: 00:07:32 And so she stayed here. She moved to Hawai' ; i with her husband who she married I think in Tule Lake. And my great aunt grace and my great uncle Benny. And then my great grandfather and great grandmother and my Grandpa, they all were deported to Japan after being in, um, Bismark, North Dakota and Fort Lincoln because they were a part of the Hoshidan in Tule Lake, so, um, so like even just like learning that, like learning that my family got deported. I was like, oh my God. I was like, cause like you know when you' ; re a kid and you hear stories like Oh your grandpa met your grandma in Japan. I was like, what were they trying Japan or like or like, oh your uncle gene' ; s born in Japan. Um, but your mom who' ; s adopted from Japan cause they couldn' ; t get pregnant. So that' ; s why she' ; s an American citizen. HK: 00:08:16 And like when I hear these stories like now as an adult and like learning them and piecing the stories together, it all makes sense why my family didn' ; t have Japanese American friends. It all makes sense why, like they love white. It all makes sense why... really why we don' ; t have Japanese American family friends. Um, being not only no-no boys but like being in the Hoshidan and deported. I was like, oh my God, like, and like, and I think right now, especially now that DACA is about to be taken away, it' ; s like separating families and deporting people. It' ; s like, how do I say, like I am a living example of why it' ; s not good to deport people. Like, cause sometimes I like think about how screwed up my family is cause they were messed up already. Like lots of abuse in the family, but it' ; s like internment magnified the already existing interpersonal dynamic problems and it just exacerbated the trauma. HK: 00:09:23 And I think, um, yeah, I think, yeah, it' ; s never good to deport people. I don' ; t, I don' ; t really, it' ; s just, it' ; s so heartbreaking, like, just everything happening with undocumented immigrants because immigration status is so, you know, and Asian-Americans have a long history of trying to get around the system and I think about undocumented Asian-Americans who are like so invisibilized like on triple levels and quadruple levels for being Asian and undocumented in a movement that' ; s doesn' ; t see them as, yeah, like the model minority and stuff. And um, and I think about how my family was undocumented and I think about how like, how do I say, like I think about Chinese Americans too, and the paper sons and it' ; s just like, yeah, immigration status is just so... anyway, but yeah, of course. AT: 00:10:23 Thank you for, for sharing all of that. HK: 00:10:25 Yeah. AT: 00:10:27 I' ; m wondering if we could, uh, because I love getting into the zone - HK: 00:10:35 Oh to focus on family. AT: 00:10:36 Well just, um, just to go through HK: 00:10:37 Chronologically?. AT: 00:10:39 Yeah. Kind of like where they were at and like who. HK: 00:10:42 Sure. AT: 00:10:42 And who your family is? So we, so we can have that and then get into the - HK: 00:10:48 the bigger questions. Okay. AT: 00:10:49 Yes, yes. HK: 00:10:49 Yeah. Oh yeah. Cause it' ; s, that' ; s the whole purpose of this is to connect. Okay. AT: 00:10:53 Well just, and so I know too, because I, yeah, I would love to have just some more context. HK: 00:11:00 Sure. AT: 00:11:00 So - HK: 00:11:02 What camp they were in? AT: 00:11:04 Yeah. So, so your grandmother and your grandfather, um - HK: 00:11:08 They met in Japan. My grandma' ; s an immigrant. HK: 00:11:12 Yeah. So I' ; ll just talk about my American family and then I' ; ll talk about them being in Japan and then I' ; ll talk about them coming to America, again. Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah, I know, I told you it' ; s super complicated. And then my mom was adopted from Japan, so I' ; m just like, God I' ; m working it out like every day. I go to therapy, I go to - I have my crystal, like here I' ; ll just like have it out now. But, um, yeah, it' ; s hard when it' ; s a complicated story and then being biracial too. But I think being biracial isn' ; t that complicated in the Japanese American community because most of us are. But, um, but it wasn' ; t going to say, so my family immigrated to the United States from Japan and I think in 1910 if I looked at the census information correctly, um, there was Anna, Arthur, um, Grace and Ben and those were the four siblings. And my grandfather' ; s name is Arthur. And so my grandparents, or my great grandparents, I' ; m pretty sure my great grandfather was a landscaper and he made a lot of the gardens in Manzanar that they' ; re like uncovering now, especially by the hospital and the hospital' ; s where my grandfather worked. Um, and that' ; s also where he worked in Tokyo. Uh, US military base too, was like in as a quarterly. I think that' ; s what they' ; re called, the people who clean up stuff in hospitals. Um, so anyways, so they were living in LA area. Um, I think it was, oh my God. Where were they living in LA. It will come to me - Whittier high school? So maybe in Whittier? I, I' ; ve tried to remember the different areas of LA. HK: 00:12:45 Um, so anyways, so they were living there and then, um, like everyone else they were put on buses and they were taken to, um, to Manzanar. And my grandfather described it as like, they were really scared. They just thought like they may shoot all of us. Like he, he like shared little details. I still remember from fourth grade about like how - he didn' ; t tell me that part when I was in fourth grade, he told me that one as an adult about being scared that they were gonna get killed. But when I was in fourth grade, he told me that like, they like would stop on the side of the road and just give them toilet paper just to like, yeah, just like in public, just like so anyways, so - AT: 00:13:25 And how old was he? HK: 00:13:27 I think he was 23, if I remember. Like, and so it was really powerful, like, getting to know my grandparents at 20, I think I was 22 or 21. I actually think he was 22 or 21 cause I remember thinking, oh my God, like my grandpa was my age and I' ; m all the opportunities I' ; ve had because of my grandparents and financial support to get an education is because of them. Um, and he never had the opportunities to get an education, um, because he was incarcerated. And, um, so they were in Manzanar, um, and before they got sent to Tule Lake, um, the reason why I' ; m wearing this shirt is because my grandfather had a bunch of jobs and one of them was he would sell hot dogs at the baseball games, which I thought was pretty cool. And so I got this shirt at Manzanar when I went. Um, I forget, I think it was the Bainbridge pilgrimage. So what was interesting about his story was that I was so grateful I lived in Seattle, um, because I' ; ve been to Bainbridge and I' ; ve also met people on the internment like Minidoka pilgrimage committee who are from Bainbridge. And they were the first to be taken away. And so because it was so quick, they were sent to Manzanar and so because my grandparents were like landscapers, um like agricultural stuff like every Japanese American back then, or it' ; s either hotels or agriculture. So they um, he farmed with them cause it was like a way to get out of the camps was you could go farming and like farming for the white people. And so they basically, like, he befriended people from Bainbridge island, which made sense because I remember when I was in undergrad, it' ; s so funny when you learn the story and then all the details kind of fall into place, like they always talked about Bainbridge, when I lived in Seattle for undergrad, they were like, go to Bainbridge island, go to Bainbridge island. And I was like, okay, like I had no interest. And so now it makes sense. So the story, cause he was friends with people from Bainbridge, which is why they bought like a house there, um, as a property. HK: 00:15:29 Um, yeah. So they were in the camps just doing their best to like, like what everyone else did, just doing their best to seem like a human being. And then, um, then the no-no, the, um, questionnaire came out. And so my grandfather would' ; ve fought, he wasn' ; t gonna forswear his allegiance, but cause he always said, he' ; s like, I didn' ; t really understand the question and I would have said no to it. Um, cause I think for him it would' ; ve meant he wasn' ; t Japanese, but he was willing to fight for the military. Like he was like, yeah, I would' ; ve fought for my country. I' ; m an American. Um, but my great grandfather, oh, I' ; m sorry, my great grandmother was really disillusioned. And she was like, no, like you need to be like a good son. I assume. Like it' ; s funny, I read that John Okada' ; s " ; No-No Boy" ; and I have a feeling - I don' ; t know if my family was exactly like that, but it, it just, a lot of it was mental health and I' ; m feeling disillusioned as a Japanese immigrant at that time, Like as an Issei, I can' ; t, I can' ; t even imagine what my great-grandmother was going through. And, um, and maybe I would' ; ve done the same thing too. Um, and so she was like, she was like, no, like I need to go back to Japan. We can' ; t live here. They don' ; t want us. And so I mean, like my family, they sold their car. I remember when they told me this, I think I was in fourth grade when they told me, they sold their car for $10. And I just like when you' ; re in fourth grade, you hear that and you' ; re just like, what? But like as an adult, like $10, I can' ; t even get lunch for $10. Like, and I know it' ; s like different, you know, obviously it' ; s not 1940s, but it' ; s just so humiliating. I can' ; t even imagine how she felt. Um, yeah, I can' ; t even imagine how she felt. So she um, yeah, so they were no-nos, um, which was a sexist term! Cause there are no, no girls, I think, but whatever, um, cause Yuri, oh no, Yuri Kochiyama was part of the war. Nevermind, I was like was Yuri a no-no? Um, so basically my family, um, were sent to Tule Lake, and because they were a part of the no-nos, they were sent to like the, probably the shittier part of the camp, honestly. And from there they joined the Hoshidan, because I think they wanted to learn Japanese because they were going gonna get deported. So they were like better learn the language cause, assimilation, no one taught us. So basically, um, they' ; re part of the Hoshidan and I think it was in Tule Lake where my great-aunt Anna got married, and so she and her husband after the war moved to Hawai' ; i. But um, yeah and there was like more with another cousin. Like my family story is very complicated. Like, and I' ; m still piecing it together, honestly. So from Tule Lake they went to Fort Lincoln in North Dakota and I was so excited to see that the exhibit actually has Fort Lincoln. I was like, what? Like no one ever talks about those camps where they put Germans and Italians and Japanese people. So it' ; s like, damn, you know, my family' ; s messed up. It' ; s like they' ; re with the white people. So anyways, so they were there and from there they were sent to Japan. HK: 00:18:34 And I remember reading an article about my family because like that' ; s how it is with my family. It' ; s like they only share certain details, but I' ; ve been really lucky that I' ; ve had a family who likes to talk about themselves so much. It' ; s like narcissism is a great quality to have, but it' ; s also like, I hope part of their healing process too. Um, and I think it is. I really do think it is. And, but, um, anyway, so my great-uncle Benny, he had done an article with someone and he had essentially described what I' ; m about to tell you, like about going to Japan and what that was like. And so it was the three siblings and the two great-grandparents, AT: 00:19:10 Just to clarify, can you help me out with, like, how old everyone was. HK: 00:19:17 By that time? AT: 00:19:17 In the order of your grandfather' ; s family? HK: 00:19:19 Oh, so he, oh, so my great aunt Anna was the oldest siblings, so she was probably mid-twenties. He was early twenties and then Grace and Benny were probably teenagers, like probably like 19/18 cause they were all pretty close in age. Yeah. AT: 00:19:35 Okay thank you. I didn' ; t realize that HK: 00:19:36 Oh yeah, sure. Of course. AT: 00:19:38 But so, so HK: 00:19:39 By that time he was probably in his mid, late twenties. They' ; re probably in their early-twenties or mid-twenties. Um, cause it' ; s been like four years or five years. No, three years. Wait four years. I think there were deported in 1945. Yeah, so it would have been and Pearl Harbor happened in 41. Okay. Um, yeah, no, that' ; s a good question. It' ; s good to like track. So I was like, was he entering his Saturn Return? Like when he was deported? Oh my God. Okay. Anyway, so they were deported and because they were Japanese American, they didn' ; t speak Japanese. Um, and so they ended up working at a U.S. Military base. Just the ironies upon ironies. I know from my family, but before they worked in Tokyo, like at a hospital, um, which is where they worked in Manzanar in hospitals too, um, like cleaning up people' ; s like waste basically. Um, yeah, it was a really sad story. It was like, even my grandfather I think talked about it a little in Densho about like being on the train and seeing just the devastation, the atomic bombs, like just like, I can' ; t even imagine like, like being treated like shit in your country and then like going back to the country that you' ; re supposed to be and then like seeing it in total ruins because of the country you came from. And then, um, basically the story was they were on the train and they got to the stop and then my great-grandma, I assume it was her, cause they were rice farmers, they were looking for their rice farms and they couldn' ; t find them and they walked for like miles, like along the train tracks and just by the time they got to the village, I guess, um, yeah, the way that the article that I read about my family was like my great-aunt Grace she just like sat down and just started crying just by the time they got there and it' ; s just really hard to hear it cause my great-aunt Grace was my favorite aunt. She actually is my favorite aunt, hands-down. Um, and she' ; s like one of the funniest people I had ever known. And so it' ; s usually funny people are funny cause they' ; ve been through a lot of bad things and um, yeah, I think about my aunt Grace a lot, um, when I think about them going back to Japan, um, and how that impacted her. AT: 00:22:03 And so were they returning to where your great-grandparents were from? HK: 00:22:09 I assume it was my great-grandmother. Yeah. That was the sense I was getting, cause she was the one who really wanted to go back. So they had been rice farmers, so I assume, um, and yeah, I just assumed they were looking for their farm. But um, it was probably destroyed during the war, so because it was destroyed or they couldn' ; t find it, they ended up going to Tokyo and working in like the hospital or the military bases, finding different jobs, befriending white people to, really, as a way to come back to America. Um, if it wasn' ; t for this, like white soldier person my family wouldn' ; t have come back to the United States. So it was my grandfather' ; s way of befriending white people to come back to America. And then my great-aunt Grace, she came back to America by marrying someone she didn' ; t love. She married like a soldier who she didn' ; t really love because she wanted to come back to America. And my great uncle Benny, he has a lot of problems. He just came back to the United States when, um, they did the pardon, which I think was in the 50s where the government apologized and said, you are under distress, clearly, and you can come back to America if you want. Um, so, and then my, I think I' ; m confused about my great-grandfather. Like what, I know he was in America for a bit, but I think they sent him back to Japan cause he wasn' ; t a good person. Um, but my great-grandmother, she ended up living in LA, like coming back, I think during the pardon, and just her story it was just, I feel like a lot of people in my family, honestly, had really tragic endings, but it' ; s just, I actually learned my great grandmother' ; s story through my second cousin, my great-uncle Benny' ; s son. He' ; s so nice. His name is Kenneth. He lives in Seattle. He' ; s like, he' ; s just so nice. And so when I lived in Seattle, I got to know him better. Um, and yeah, he shared with me about my great-grandmother and how she basically like, yeah, she lived I think by train tracks like somewhere in LA and that, like, she, she just like, her story was, she was just so disillusioned about everything that happened. And, um, I think my great aunt grace would always visit her, but it' ; s crazy how disconnected I feel from them that I don' ; t know their names, you know, that I don' ; t know if my grandmother died alone, my great grandmother, you know. Um, and that' ; s what internment did, it just, it just separated us as a family. Um like, yeah, I have family scattered everywhere. Um, yeah. And so in Japan though, my great-aunt Grace, she was a typist and that' ; s where she met my grandmother, Kimiko, um, oh actually I don' ; t know, my grandmother' ; s maiden last name. That' ; s a problem. Patriarchy, you know. Um, so Kimiko worked in the U.S. base too, cause she really wanted to come to America. So her mom, so my other great-grandma wanted her to be a geisha and she was like, no thanks I want to go to America. And she would always talk about how like all the Japanese girls would like date, like GIs, like white soldiers. But she wasn' ; t looking for a GI. She was looking for someone she actually wanted to love. And so she met my grandfather through my aunt because they were in the same class together. She' ; s like, oh, I want you to meet my brother. And then they ended up getting married. She liked how tall he was cause like he' ; s very tall. Um, and my aunt and uncle are very tall too. My mom' ; s really short. She' ; s adopted. Um, so we look nothing like our family. Um, so anyway, so they met my grandmother was from Fukuoka and um, yeah, and they met in Tokyo and then they immigrated to America I think in the fifties. Um, they were able to come back and they weren' ; t able to get pregnant when they were in Japan. They had my uncle Gene. Um, and they tried and tried but couldn' ; t. And so they adopted my mom from the same city as my grandmother' ; s son, which was Fukuoka and, um, and they ended up getting pregnant that year with my aunt, I think. HK: 00:26:12 So that' ; s, yeah. Anyway. And so my grandmother who had dementia, she would always tell me stories about Japan, um, cause she could remember it. Um, and she told me about, I think I like, I was like that non-Asian person who wanted to know the sensational details. I was like, did any of your friends die? I was just such an idiot when I was like trying to record my family stories. But one of her friends did die actually. Like there was like, but it wasn' ; t from like an explosion. It was from residue from the explosion, like a piece hot like concrete or something fell on her thigh and it just became infected. And, and my grandmother almost starved to death during the war too. Like she used to like make, um, she used to like when her mom wasn' ; t home, cause like they had have to ration food, she like would like just wet rice and like add flour to it and like eat that paste. And I um, God like even sharing that out loud, um, cause these are stories she just told me, um, in her house when I was like 21, 22. It' ; s amazing. Like I think about all the opportunities she' ; s given me, um, that I don' ; t have to starve and that I could go to college, that I could, not only could I go to college, but I could study sociology and ethnic studies. You know what I mean? Like that' ; s wow. Like I didn' ; t have to be a doctor. I didn' ; t have to do a practical degree. I could, yeah. I could do degrees that the society doesn' ; t value. Um, yeah. And so it' ; s interesting like having a Japanese immigrant parent who experienced the war, having a Japanese grandparent who experienced internment, and then having a mom who was adopted. Um, so it' ; s always felt like a very complicated story. And the last piece is the story, or there' ; s never a last piece, but one dream I do have is trying to find my birth grandmother. Um, I always wanted to know what happened. Like why would someone give up their child? Um, there wasn' ; t really any records, but we recently found out that my mom, her name, her birth name is Eiko Okuda that her mom' ; s name is Eiko Okuda, that my great-grandmother named, oh no, not my great, but my grandmother named my mom after her and my mom was like, oh it' ; s cause she didn' ; t love me. Like she even bothered give me a name and I was like, what if she wanted to - like we could find her. Maybe that' ; s why she gave you her name, and my mom was like, hm. I don' ; t know. But I think it' ; s really amazing, like having so many grandparents and like really feeling loved by them. And like, I think adoption is really complicated. I think about like Korean adoptees and I was like, oh my heart goes out. And Chinese adoptees too, you know? And yeah, I think we normally don' ; t associate adoption with Japanese and, um - AT: 00:29:07 And I don' ; t, I would say even less so of that time - HK: 00:29:11 - Generation. And what' ; s interesting about the generation is that there was a push for inter, not interracial, but transracial adoption like by white Americans of like Asian, like of, well I was talking to someone about this cause that really surprised me cause there was so much racism, so I was like, are you sure? Like, is this correct? But if that is true, it had to do with that sense of multiculturalism that we have now that was like burgeoning in after the civil rights movement. Um, which was like around the time my mom was adopted, but um, or not after, but like around when everything was reaching the boiling point in the 60s, which was when she was adopted. HK: 00:29:57 But, um, now I' ; m getting off track and I need to Google and research it. But I hope that makes sense. The family trajectory of being in America, getting deported, meeting in Japan, coming back to America, and then adopting my mother. Yeah. And the last story I do want to share about, um, Fukuoka is that my grandmother, she would always repeat herself cause she had Alzheimer' ; s. So it' ; s like I really learned the stories and she told me, she was like, she was like, the weather saved my life. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she was like, yeah, you know, she was like, we were supposed to be bombed by - but it was cloudy that day. So that' ; s why Nagasaki was bombed. And like the thought of like, like I wouldn' ; t have been alive, like my mom' ; s family, like blood family wouldn' ; t have been alive either. And it' ; s amazing how a cloudy day can save your life. And it just shows how just arbitrary, and not arbitrary, but just like one wrong move, and it' ; s, it just shows how little control we have. And I think, is it okay if I talk about the president? I think like during this era, like I think a lot of liberals are, just like white liberals really are just feeling out of control. And the truth is we' ; re not in control ever. And I think like, I feel so lucky with like a meditation practice that I had when I lived in the bay area. It was trans meditation and um, basically like learning that we really aren' ; t in control and doing the best we can with what we can control. And I think, you know, I used to always like roll my eyes at " ; shigataganai" ; and " ; gamman" ; and I was like, what the fuck is wrong with people? But it like, it' ; s true, like shigataganai, like some things literally can' ; t be helped and some things can, but it' ; s, I think that' ; s, I think I have finally understand shigataganai and gamman in a way that I had never because Donald Trump' ; s our president and feeling so helpless, and like he didn' ; t even win the popular vote. Like, it' ; s just some things are literally out of your control, whether it' ; s a Russian hacking or the popular vote not being taken seriously. It' ; s like, um, it' ; s like, how do you shigataganai basically the stuff you can' ; t change and then how do you fight back with the stuff you can change if you have enough privilege to do that. Yeah. AT: 00:32:35 Thank you. HK: 00:32:36 You' ; re welcome. AT: 00:32:42 So I would love to hear a little bit more about, um, your own journey and experience and, and learning your family' ; s history and also, um, this history in general because I feel like, and I know you' ; ve touched on it at times, but everyone kind of has their own like, oh, well we didn' ; t talk about it. I learned about it. So I want to hear more about like your experience about learning about your presentation and then also kind of like connecting those dots and piecing together your family story. HK: 00:33:19 Absolutely. And I' ; m like trying to cross my legs. Um, yeah, it' ; s - healing is really painful experience. Um, it' ; s like when you get to the other side, you' ; re like, whew, okay, I made it. But while you' ; re in it - I think when I was 19 that was my first pilgrimage. I think I was just so like radical and QTPOC and it' ; s just like a mess honestly. But like being at the internment camp, being at Minidoka in Idaho, it was such an important moment. I think even when I was 9 years old or 10 years old, whatever or however old I was in fourth grade, I always knew I needed to go. It' ; s kind of like how I' ; ve always known I need to go to Japan to find my birth grandmother. It' ; s just something you know, intuitively, and I like, I knew I need to go to a camp. I was like, I have to like, how am I - like I live in fricking Ohio, like no Asian people. Like I was like, I need, I just have to. And so the first time I went on a pilgrimage, I just cried so much and it was the first time I ever felt Japanese American. And it was because everyone looked like my family. There were mixed people. There were people who looked like my aunt and uncle. There were people looked like my grandparents. There were people who weren' ; t Japanese, but were just there to support, like whether it' ; s interracial or there' ; s just really like Japanese culture and they' ; re there. And it felt like home though. It felt like what I knew. And um, it was the first time I ever really heard about the suicides in our community. And it was the first time I ever really saw older Japanese Americans cry. And that like, that fucked me up. And, and then when I went on Manzanar pilgrimage, seeing my grandfather cry was really hard. Um, he even just starts crying when he' ; s just talking about the internment. He even doesn' ; t even need to be at the camp. He just starts crying. And, um, so for me it wasn' ; t like - it' ; s just hard seeing old people cry and it' ; s hard seeing your community cry. It' ; s hard seeing your family cry. And it' ; s crazy. Cause I think a lot of people when they' ; re older, they want to protect the youth. They don' ; t want them to see them cry, especially if they' ; re your family. But I think that' ; s how traumatizing internment was, was that like my grandfather literally can' ; t control himself. Like he just starts crying. Um, yeah. I think as a community - they - we just try to control it and hold it in for so many years that - I mean that' ; s the bad part of shigataganai is like, it, it just like - it' ; s why our community has so many like mental health issues, honestly. We may be financially okay, but spiritually are we? Emotionally and like mentally are we okay? And um, yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t know the answer to that. And I think our community like learning about the history as a whole, like you' ; re asking, it' ; s really interesting. It' ; s like we are from a people who colonized other Asian people. We are from people who colonized our own people. Like, what was it, the Ainu and the Okinawans. I' ; m like, what the fuck' ; s wrong with people? And I just coming from that legacy and understanding how like Chinese and Filipino and Korean and like South Asian, whether Pakistani or Indian didn' ; t have the opportunities we had in America because they weren' ; t part of an empire. Um, and well, an empire at that time period. I' ; m considering China being an empire at certain points in history, but, um, I think with Japan it' ; s like, it' ; s such a bizarre state - situation to be in. It' ; s like it was such a culture shock I think for Japanese Americans because they were treated not great. There' ; s still experienced racism, but they were treated better than other Asian people, Asian and Pacific Islanders I should say. And so I think when internment happened, it sent a shock-wave through our community. This like sense of superiority that I think they had because they were from an empire, you know, that it just, it really, you know, when you meet someone who' ; s Japanese American, you know, when you meet someone who is from Japan, you know, when you meet someone who was in Hawai' ; i during the internment, you know - or at least I know when I meet someone who' ; s from the mainland and incarcerated because I think people who were incarcerated carry this like shame and like sadness with them. Even if, if it' ; s us, like the fourth generation, there' ; s this like sense of shame that we carry about being Japanese and this like disconnection that when I meet people I' ; m like, oh that person, they immigrated or their parents immigrated cause they don' ; t hate themselves or like that' ; s why our friend Anise - am I allowed to talking about it? That' ; s why she' ; s so fascinating to me because she' ; s Yonsei and Shin-Nisei and I can see both in her, and Shin-Nisei are just like so empowered. I was like what the hell? And the Yonsei are just like werb-werb-werb you know, it' ; s like, Oh God, I hate us all. And it' ; s like, I think with like, um, with our community, it' ; s just, we' ; re just so complicated. And like my mentor, she told me, her partner called it like shades of JA. Like there are just so many JAs and we' ; re not even talking - I wasn' ; t even talking about Okinawans. I wasn' ; t even talking about the Ainu I wasn' ; t even talking about like what does it mean to be from Hawai' ; i because they did experience different types of incarceration but just not seen as incarceration on the mainland and same with Canadians. And then also same with people in Latin America who were brought up, you know, so yeah, so I wanted to say that. And I also wanted to say that I think I was really lucky. I know a lot of people don' ; t have exposure to their family history, and my family, because they' ; re narcissists, they love talking about themselves. And so it was easy for me to learn their story because they would just so openly shared it. And then also they openly shared it on the internet too. And like when I was in fourth grade, they even were willing to share like little stories that you would tell a child. Um, so I never felt like - excuse me - I think that' ; s part of the reason why I moved from Seattle to LA. I knew I could learn my family story. I think if I had never really heard any of it, like in fourth grade or through over the years, I wouldn' ; t have felt like, oh, let me move here. Because a lot of Japanese American families just don' ; t talk about it. So, so I feel really like blessed in that sense that like, yeah, my family stories really - I don' ; t know if tragic' ; s the right word, they' ; re tragic elements. But yeah, my family' ; s story is really complicated and really sad. Um, but I knew I could learn it. Um, and I didn' ; t realize how complicated and sad it was or I probably wouldn' ; t have tried to learn it cause it was, it' ; s depressing when you learn your family story, you' ; re like, oh man, you went through that. Oh my God. And that happened. And, but at the same time, like I' ; m so grateful that I learned it because if I hadn' ; t learned it, I think I would still carry that sadness with me. And now that I don' ; t, now that I know it, I know I' ; m not sad anymore. I mean, I get sad and I cry, I cry, I like fricking internment trailers, but it' ; s like I don' ; t carry the sadness of not knowing anymore, which is a certain type of sadness and trauma. Um, I just carry like, man, my family' ; s messed up. Like, and I can joke about it. And I think when you can joke about something, not always, but I think for me now that I' ; m able to joke about it, it means that I have done some healing because I remember the first internment camp I went to, I like could not joke at all, but like as time has gone on, I can make jokes when I' ; m at an internment camp, but like maybe that' ; s horrible. I don' ; t know. But it' ; s like, it' ; s, um, I think when you' ; re able to joke about something, yeah, it' ; s either you haven' ; t processed your feelings or you have and like you' ; re able to find humor even in the worst situation. AT: 00:41:36 And why do you think that? Um, um, like what is it about knowing that handles that, that' ; s healing or, or, or what was the difference exactly between the sadness of not knowing versus the sadness of just everything that happens? HK: 00:41:56 I think for me, I was just a very defensive, like QTPOC, whenever I say that I mean like Queer and Trans people of color. And I was like very defensive. I was just like, don' ; t mess with me white America, like, don' ; t mess with me. And I think I had a lot of stuff going on cause I' ; m half white so I was like God mixed race people, it' ; s like half white people anyway cause not every mix is half white. But anyway, um, I think for me I was coming from a place of defensiveness and like I also, it was like when I was younger it was this sadness that people would say things to me. Like white people in particular that I knew wasn' ; t true. Like, I like, people would say things to me about Japanese culture or just anything I just like knew - I was like that' ; s not true. But I don' ; t know why. And I remember like I was in, I was 13, it was in eighth grade. This one popular boy, white boy, everyone was white basically, not everyone but most, he like - he and I got into this argument we were talking about should the bomb have been dropped, and like he and I like I don' ; t remember cause he was some, one of the most popular boys in the class and I just sort of stood up and started yelling and I was like, no it was wrong. I like, it was like my ancestors were talking through me cause like I had no idea. I was very introverted, I was a closeted gay b trans b whatever you want to call me. Like I definitely wasn' ; t outgoing like in that sense, but like something in me knew that what he was saying was wrong, morally wrong, spiritually wrong and that people, my people died because of imperialism and like, yeah. So I think like that, like the not knowing was the sadness of like people telling me things, but in my heart knowing, mm I think something you' ; re saying is wrong, like, but I don' ; t know what. And it' ; s that - and that' ; s why you internalized racism cause it' ; s like constantly people are projecting like microaggressions every day or like macroaggressions and then you just, you just, you hate yourself and you think, oh yeah, I' ; m Japanese. Like, man, like, like I' ; m nobody. Like, you know, I don' ; t have a history. We' ; re not really American. Like, yeah. Yeah. I think that' ; s the difference. And I think knowing it now, I feel more American now than I did before. And it' ; s complicated because we' ; re not native American. I' ; m not native American, so I' ; m not American in that sense. And so, um, so it was partly that. And it was also partly I wanted to learn my story because of Uncle Fred and Auntie Dorothy Cordova who created this group called Filipino American National Historical Society, which has like - I' ; m like promoting it right now - that has like chapters throughout the country. And really, I think it was in the ' ; 80s they created it and it was a way, or the ' ; 70s Oh, I need to remember. But it was a way to record Filipino American stories, specifically Filipino American. And they mentored me so graciously and I really - they - Uncle Fred always told me, learn your Asian American history, learn your Asian American history. And they always accepted me as a mixed person, which was really special. And it was because of Uncle and Auntie Dorothy really that it, that I even wanted to learn my Asian American history and learn my family history. Cause I knew just from their legacy in their work that it was - I remember Auntie Dorothy told me, she was like, she learned Filipina American history because it gave her a sense of self worth. She was like, I just, I feel like I have a sense of worth now. Now that I know my story now that I know my history, um, you feel like she was like, I feel like I' ; m part of America now. And I think that' ; s what' ; s hard about Asian American history because even within academia, even with an ethnic studies, honestly it feels like Asian American history is not taken as seriously. Um, and we' ; re not really seen as people of color who experienced racism and, let alone, if you' ; re half white, then you can forget it you' ; re definitely not a person of color. And so I think it' ; s like, it' ; s like no, it' ; s like no, we are people of color, we do experience racism. We just experience it in a very specific way and, you know, like erasing our histories is part of white supremacy and we actually can learn a lot from each other if we just like took the time, took down our walls of being really defensive, which are our coping mechanisms and really shared our stories, like sharing that my grandparents had to sell their car for $10. Like that' ; s horrible. Like you know, like little, I think people think of Japanese America as this really rich community, and we are now, I would say we' ; re upper-middle class and I also want to say like that' ; s because of our, the history of pitting people of color against each other and elevating certain people and Japan' ; s history of being an empire. Like, that' ; s why our community' ; s so wealthy. And I think like, like I think people just kind of ignore the fact that of what happened and how it' ; s psychologically wounded our community and why we are the way we are. And how do you hold that complexity of both having privilege and then also being oppressed. And I think most people have both but are unwilling to talk about it. Um, yeah. I hope I answered your question. AT: 00:47:01 That was very well said. HK: 00:47:02 Okay, cool. Cool, good, good. AT: 00:47:05 Um. So you, uh, I don' ; t even know where to start. So you' ; ve, you' ; ve lived in a number of different places and I' ; m wondering if we can, uh, talk about your, uh, experiences and/or involvement, um, with different Japanese American communities in the country, if you, if you have been getting involved and where you were at. HK: 00:47:32 Question, is it okay if I go to the bathroom? AT: 00:47:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can take a break. HK: 00:47:34 Can we pause really quick? It' ; s all the coffee. AT: 00:47:38 Yeah. So, um, cause you mentioned that you were pretty isolated in Ohio. So if you could just like, yeah, you know give the lay of the land. HK: 00:47:49 So, um, yeah, it was funny when I was in Ohio, I just, I wanted to learn anything about Japanese culture, but like I didn' ; t cause I internalized racism. And I remember being Japanese in high school was like, like - don' ; t worry, this connects to your question. But um, I remember once someone came up to me - they were a person of color, thank God, but it was still really awkward - they asked me what kind of Asian I was and I knew she really liked like manga - and at the time I didn' ; t even know what manga was I thought it was called anime. That' ; s how disconnected I was from anything. And all I knew is I didn' ; t, wasn' ; t gonna read manga or like watch anime because that' ; s weird people do that. And I remember this one white girl came up to me and was like, she like confessed to me what she was like, like I like, I watch anime. And I was just like, I don' ; t care. I don' ; t even know what that is. Like my internalized racist ass. I was like, I don' ; t care white girl. She' ; s like, I' ; m really ashamed. I was like, I don' ; t, okay me too, like lot, plenty of shame to go around. But I remember I didn' ; t say me too, cause obviously I didn' ; t know. I was like, Oh okay, I don' ; t care. Um, cause that' ; s how deeply rooted was it was like even the white people who did it, they knew that only weird people watch that stuff. Only weirdos. Right. And so I think I always associated being Japanese with being really weird. And um, and so this person, she came up to me and she was like, what kind of Asian are you? And I was like, don' ; t say Japanese. I was like, oh my gosh, shouldn' ; t say Japanese she' ; s going to love me if I say Japanese. But I grew up Irish Catholic. So I was like Japanese because like I couldn' ; t lie, like it was a sin. And so in my - you know - I was taught that it was sinful to lie. So I was like Japanese, she' ; s like, oh my God, Japanese. I was like, yeah, like it was just so much. So that was my exposure to I guess a Japanese community. Like, and I was like, me and my sister, Kelsey and her brother were like the only four Japanese Americans I knew growing up in Ohio. Um, I remember there was one person named Nastsuko Abe, who they called Natsuko, Abe, but like looking back I was like, that' ; s how you pronounce her name. But anyway, that was when I was in, I think like, elementary school, second grade, fifth grade, I don' ; t know. But I remember I was so excited to meet like someone from Japan, but she was only there for half a semester cause she was - or for one semester - cause she was an exchange student. So that was really cool meeting her. But as you can tell it' ; s very isolated. So, um, so by the time I, you know, was a senior - or no, I was a junior - they offered Chinese at my school, and I thought this is it. This is like the closest I' ; m going to get to Japanese so I' ; m going to take Chinese. Same language, right? Not at all. But like that professor or that teacher, she was my favorite teacher in high school. Like very much like that-teacher-who-changes-you. Like she was that for me, she was one of the most loving and compassionate and warm people, and basically it was because of her and her warmth and like loving taking that class with her that I decided I was going to do Asian Studies, which brought me out to the west coast because I was like, I' ; ve got to go where Asian people are. I had no intention of learning Japanese American history. I was like, I' ; m here to like learn about Asia, not Asian American. So I went out there and I, yeah. And everything changed when I went out there because I started seeing myself being reflected everywhere, whether it was interracial couples, um, children who looked like me when I was a kid. Um, yeah. And I took an Asian studies class, um, it was called " ; The Asian American Experience." ; We learned about Filipino, Chinese, and Japanese Americans and that' ; s actually how I met the Cordovas was through that class. I did an internship at the Filipino society and everything changed. And I think like I was a sophomore in college when I changed my major and yeah, everything changed. Um, I actually changed it to, they didn' ; t have Asian American studies, but they had - I could do African American studies. And I think for me, I just wanted to learn about people of color, period. And that was part of the reason why I did ethnic studies. I just wanted to learn about people of color in America. Like, cause I didn' ; t have that growing up. And I think like what was so powerful about African American Studies, specifically African American history, the classes I took, was like know your history, know who you are, know your community. And like that' ; s how you can heal, that idea of Sankofa of like we understand the past in order to like understand the present and have a future very much like circular time. And, um, and then the also that the saying of everything we do is for the next 7 generations or everything we do is for 14 generations because the past and present for like, um, I hate saying " ; Native American sayings" ; cause I don' ; t know what tribe that saying is from but - Native American saying. But um, yeah just that idea of knowing your past and so all of these courses and all of these things helped get me out into the community. Cause I think for me, I was just intellectualizing everything. I was just in school, but like these courses really politicized me. And there was this group on campus, the multicultural affairs office, and they had a students of color retreat that said mixed people are welcome. Cause I was like, well I' ; m not a person of color but I' ; m mixed so I guess I can go. I hope they like me. And so I went and that' ; s where I became politicized too was my sophomore year of college. And then through that retreat and all these classes I was taking sophomore year, that' ; s what got me out into the community. So don' ; t worry, it all connects. So when I was doing community work, I was mainly doing racial justice work for immigration stuff for at first there was also this community garden, um, called the Danny Wu Garden in the international district in Chinatown. And just being around Asian American elders, it was just really powerful. Um, and so all these things like the classes, the Filipino American society led me to wanting to work with the Minidoka pilgrimage. I was like a scholarship recipient, um, that summer. And then because of this immigration, like it was mainly like, I think it was mainly Latino run, they were organizing mayday march and at the mayday march when I was helping out, like I was one of those people wearing the little yellow vests or whatever or orange vests, I forget. I saw this banner that said " ; Tadaima - radical Japanese organizing" ; and they all looked hapa. And I was like, what is - I like literally went up to them and I was like, hey, like - like God, so awkward - I was like, hey, like I' ; m radical. I' ; m Japanese. Like, what are, what is this? And they were like, you' ; re the first not-white person and come up to us. I was like, oh yeah, they like our anime. And like we, we just had this moment and they were all queer and this is before identified as queer. So it was really special that like all of these racial and economic justice groups or so many queer and trans people. And that' ; s what helped me come out to myself, um, to see myself reflected in another person. And so I organized with Tadaima for like two years, I think, especially that one summer. Um, there' ; s just a really beautiful, like sweet group of people based out of Seattle, mainly queer and trans, um, mixed Asian Americans - or mixed Japanese Americans. And they work with like Sundeoksu like Korean group if it' ; s still around. Um, they work with Pinay south Seattle, um - Filipino group - Um, I' ; m trying to think. I' ; m trying to think who else. Basically they do a lot of like queer, Asian American organizing, but also like trying to mobilize, especially with like black lives matter. I could, I don' ; t know how active the group is anymore, Tadaima but that group gave me so many opportunities to like connect with the whole community as a whole. Like we did this API freedom school and like teaching kids Asian American history. It' ; s just like that group of people, they were so special. Like we used to do like educational things like every other week or once a month. Like learn a topic about like Japanese spirituality or like, you know, just like anything to just sort of come together and feel empowered as Japanese Americans. And um, yeah, looking back I was like, wow, what a gift. Cause I really was able to accept myself as a queer person because of that group. And um, that summer, the first summer I was part of Tadaima we went to this Hiroshima event together and they had like all these lanterns and it was just such a powerful experience. Like, thinking back to that argument when I was 13 and knowing something was off and then getting to - from 13 to 19, like what a difference, well I was 20 I think, seven years later like being with Japanese Americans at this like Hiroshima remembrance event. Yeah. So that was Seattle. It' ; s a really positive experience. And I moved to LA. Um, I studied abroad, I came back from study abroad, I finished school and then I came, um, I came to LA to try and learn my family history. I wasn' ; t really involved in the Japanese American community there cause I was doing this awful Americorps program that like I had no time to do anything cause it was like awful and they ended up quitting it and like doing other work. But LA is so spread out that I found it was really hard to really cultivate Japanese American community there. I definitely connected with the Queer Asian and Pacific islander community there, um, through this group called API Equality-LA. Um, so that was really cool. Like getting opportunities from that group of Queer Asian Americans who like connected me to like I got to work with GSA, gay straight alliances throughout the Los Angeles Unified School district cause of them, like it was like very much they take care of, they take care of their own, you know what I mean? And like people were really welcoming, like I' ; m mixed and they welcomed me. Like most people weren' ; t mixed there, but they always welcomed mixed people. And Seattle was just super mixed. So they just like, you know, you' ; re one of the dime a dozen or whatever. So it was really interesting and a culture shock when I moved to the bay area. Um, and it was like constantly being told both directly and indirectly, cause we are Asian American after all, like that I was not welcome, that I was too white, that I wasn' ; t really a person of color. And then I definitely really wasn' ; t Asian American and I think like it was devastating. I like, I wanted so badly to be around my people because that' ; s all I knew like with Seattle and LA. And so it was like, it sucked so much. Um, being told to go away and direct and indirect ways by queer and trans Asian Americans. I wouldn' ; t even say trans though. Trans communities way more accepting than the queer cis community. Anyway, um, so I think like it was, it was devastating and that led me to do more mixed race studies, mixed race organizing. Um, cause there was like this festival in LA, there are these critical mixed race studies conferences. And I had like, my mixed identity was like evolving as time went on. And I like even in LA, like they were super welcoming but I knew something was different about me and that the stories weren' ; t really sitting the same way. And it was actually in San Francisco when I was basically constantly told go away by the sister organization of API Equality-LA called API Equality-Northern California. Just the people in the group. Not all of them, but a lot of them just - it was so it, it was, it was really sad when it happened actually. Um, but you know, identity, politics, whatever. But I think like I emailed Amy Sueyoshi, she was leading this oral history project called The Dragon Fruit Project. It was an intergenerational, um, like one queer elders and Queer youth who are all Asian and Pacific Islander, Queer and trans. Sorry. Um, and she like kind of swooped me up. Like she, I sent this email and be like, hey Amy, like, thanks so much for welcoming cause like she was, she knew the director of API Equality-LA, so API Equality-LA - see this is how they take care of people there, she was like, oh, let me introduce you to Amy Sueyoshi. She' ; s someone you should know. And so I met Amy at API Equality in Northern California because of API Equality-LA. So like API Equality-LA actually like, yeah, they' ; re so good about taking care of people and like welcoming people, you know? And so, um, so when I met Amy, I like told her, I was like, yeah, like I' ; m too white, I' ; m so sorry, like, this project sounds awesome, but I shouldn' ; t be the one to be a part of it, like, thanks so much, you seem really cool but yeah, I can' ; t. And she like responded with this like really long email and it was so nice and she said all these nice things and she was like come into my office - like she works at San Francisco State - and basically that conversation led to me applying to grad school and like led to me - like she even shared something in the email. She said that a lot of JAs like fourth generation don' ; t feel connected to or even third generation like Sansei don' ; t feel connected to Asia America because we have such a different history with the internment and being like generationally in the United States compared to a lot of Asian Americans who are the first generation or second generation and like, you know, immigrant kid aches like language, filial piety, guilt, all the shit. Like that' ; s just something we don' ; t really have as much as other Asian Americans. Like a lot of us didn' ; t speak our language growing up. A lot of us didn' ; t eat the foods growing up. Like, we don' ; t, we don' ; t have that story of going to elementary school, bringing our food and having the kids make fun of us, you know, or stuff like that. Or like you, yeah. Anyway, I don' ; t even to go out into every horrible thing, you know, every type of microaggression or racist thing that Asian Americans go through. But basically like Amy' ; s email really, she really saw me and like she really accepted me as a mixed person, which was really, I was like, whoa, really? Like, cause she' ; s - I thought she was monoracial but I found out she was Okinawa and mainland Japanese. And I think that' ; s a mixed experience in and of itself. And so, um, anyways, so to answer your question in the bay, I didn' ; t organize with Japanese Americans and I didn' ; t organize with Asian Americans. Um, I was volunteering some time with the straight, they' ; re not all straight, but like, I find that like straight Asian American groups are more welcoming of mixed people than queer and trans groups. And I think at, I keep saying queer and trans, but I' ; ll tell you, the trans community is so welcoming. We would take everyone, take white people would take everyone, but um, anyway, but it' ; s like for like Queer Asian American, like it' ; s just identity politics or it' ; s just so intense when you' ; re half white. It' ; s just like, should I even show up? Like, and but with like I found with like more hetero, like Asian American, there was less of crabs in a barrel. It was more like, oh, you' ; re half white, okay, my husband' ; s white. Or like, you know what I' ; m saying? It wasn' ; t like as serious like, and so I did volunteer some times with um, the Asian Law Caucus, which is like Asians Advancing Justice - Asian Americans Advancing Justice. Um, the one in San Francisco and um, yeah. Um, God that was so cool. Like, cause I got to meet some of the Japanese American elders, um, like famous ones and like it was like, that was a very - that was a very important experience for me too because like I understood the ways in which fame really disconnects people. Um, like way we idealize like say the Kochiyamas or say the Korematsus but then actually meeting the Korematsu' ; s and the Kochiyamas you see that they' ; re just people and that they' ; re normal and that that we can be great too. And it' ; s just that their families were in the spotlight with their excellence. And that was a gift to get to, to know the Kochiyamas and the Korematsus, um, stories better from their children, um, through Asian Law Caucus. And then now I' ; m here and um, I have to say, cause I, you know, I know I shit talk the Queer API community a lot on the west coast - or well in the bay, but I also want to name that being here with queer and trans Asian Americans, it' ; s been really healing actually. Like they' ; re so welcoming. Like I showed a picture of that group I 2 I to a friend on the west coast and I was like, oh my God, look at this photo. And it' ; s like you have like South Asian, southeast, east, like transracially adopted people, mixed people who are double POC and like half white. Like you have like you have old people, you have young people, people bring their babies to events here. Like it' ; s just like so cool. Like it' ; s intergenerational, it' ; s mixed ethnicity, it' ; s mixed class. It' ; s like I' ; ve never been in a space like that for queer and trans Asian Americans. And so it, it' ; s been so powerful to be around such a welcoming community. So I don' ; t want to say all community spaces are the same as you can hear just from the differences. Um, cause like Tadaima was so welcoming. But if you notice, I said we worked separately in our different little ethnic enclaves. We work together - here it' ; s like they - I know people separate - but it seems more like, you know, and I' ; m like, oh, interesting. And I showed my friend that he grew up in the bay area and he saw the photo and he' ; s, he' ; s Korean and Japanese and he saw it and he was like, whoa, this looks like a Sense8 photo. And there' ; s this TV show called Sense8 and it' ; s all about like interconnectedness of humanity. And I was like, I know it looks like Sense8 because, um, yeah, it' ; s like everyone' ; s so different like, but they all are like a family. So, um, so yeah, that' ; s - and in DC I was there for only like 6 months and there were like no Asian Americans. Like it was so like, it was so shitty being Asian American there. But like my friends who were there were API like a few of them, so I didn' ; t feel isolated, but it definitely felt weird being Asian American in DC for sure. Um, and I' ; m sure there are groups there, but I just didn' ; t really know of them. AT: 01:06:13 And what about, um, Japanese American communities specifically? Like - or in Chicago have you gotten involved in any way or what have you learned about it since being here? HK: 01:06:26 Wow. Yeah. Right. Um, I' ; ve learned that there is a community, first off. I was like, whoa, what? And it was, it was so humbling because I am half Irish and my grandparents immigrated from Ireland right after World War Two. Just the irony, one' ; s deported and one' ; s immigrating, but they came like, I think around the time my family got deported actually, but they met in a at an Irish Catholic dance here in Chicago. So I always knew that my Irish side was connected. I never imagined that a Japanese American side could be connected cause I never associated being Asian American in any way with the Midwest cause of my personal experiences in Ohio. So yeah, it' ; s super humbling, like getting to see the community, getting to learn the history, like meeting other Japanese Americans whose families have been here for a while. And I' ; m like, what? Like it' ; s just, it' ; s so eye opening and it makes sense. It makes total sense. But like with most Asian American histories, it' ; s just completely wiped out or invisibilized or not seen as real racism or whatever it is. Um, so it' ; s been really humbling and cool. I don' ; t, honestly, as a trans person, like I don' ; t do a lot of organizing with cis people. Um, so I think part of my hesitation to go at a lot of like Japanese American things is like my own anxiety around being mis-gendered. And then it also is about like - it also is about activist communities, honestly. I took a break from organizing around the time they told me to go away in the bay area and I started doing more like, um, like different types of work, like academia work or like going to a festival for families or like doing, um, what was it like energy work, you know, like learning about different types of healing practices. That' ; s actually something I' ; m more interested in than building JA community. Um, like I' ; ve always loved meeting JAs cause it always feels like you' ; re meeting your cousin or whatever. But like I think like I think where I' ; m at right now as like a trans like gender queer person and then also as like, um, when I care about like with like how do we heal intergenerational trauma. Like for me right now, maybe 30 - or like maybe 10 years from now, I would love to like go to a JACL meeting. Um, but you know, or whatever. And I think, um, how do I say, I think right now like doing different types of healing spaces, like especially with other queer and trans people of color, um, and other mixed race people too, like I think is really important for where I' ; m at right now. So, yeah. AT: 01:09:18 I want to start wrapping up. HK: 01:09:19 Sure. AT: 01:09:19 But I feel like I still have a million questions. HK: 01:09:24 Yeah, that' ; s okay. AT: 01:09:25 Um. I' ; m wondering if you could speak a little bit to how you see, um, the incarceration story. I' ; m like, what are some of the, the key things - or whether it' ; s, you know, the ways in which, um, certain civil liberties were violated and totally removed. I guess I would love to, to hear your thoughts on that, on how it connects to some of the, the current issues that we' ; re experiencing today and certain, um, violations of civil liberties that are happening right now. HK: 01:10:24 I mean, if people aren' ; t able to make the Muslim Japanese connection, then they are not awake or aware at all. Even when I was like 11, when 9/11 happened, I remember being like, I hope they don' ; t do to them what they did to my family. And like, I was 11. Like I barely knew my family' ; s story. You know what I mean? It' ; s like if 11 year old me could make - connect the dots, I' ; m like damn America, like connect the dots and um, whew. My God. And I also, so that' ; s the most obvious connection. Like the AMEMSA community, the Arab, middle eastern, Muslim and South Asian community. Hello. You know, if you don' ; t get that then you' ; re stupid. Cause like that' ; s so obvious. Um, but the other connection that I really get until really learning about my family' ; s immigration - tenuous relationship to immigration and deportation is how much citizenship and the rhetoric we use around like who is a good citizen and like who is loyal. I mean, and ugh, like understanding how just with like the drop of a hat, you can not be a citizen. Like it - that' ; s terrifying. And that' ; s like, it just shows you the construction of citizenship. It' ; s a construction. It' ; s not real. And that - why do you treat undocumented people like shit? Like I don' ; t - why do you scapegoat people? Like I don' ; t - ugh God. So, um, I feel like this is the least like, um, articulate thing I' ; ve done so far. I' ; m just like, wow, fuck everyone. But it really is, um, that' ; s how I feel. Like I feel like I have like guttural reactions to your question. Cause it' ; s the, it' ; s just so - yeah. I don' ; t know why people don' ; t understand why the past isn' ; t connected to the present. I don' ; t know why people don' ; t understand that people of color are human beings. I don' ; t know why people don' ; t understand that whether you' ; re not, you have papers makes you a human being or a person worthy of protection and healthcare and yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t, I don' ; t get America. I don' ; t understand why. Yeah, I just don' ; t get it. Yeah. Anyway, I don' ; t even know if I answered your question. I don' ; t get why people hate each other. And I did ethnic studies as a master level and I still don' ; t understand. I can understand the history, but I don' ; t get it. AT: 01:13:03 And what do you see as - um, like what role do do you have or, or responsibility, um, in any way that you identify. So whether that' ; s as a young person, as a queer person of color, um, how like however that is, like, what do you see, what do you see as your role in kind of working on some of these systemic problems? HK: 01:13:39 Yeah, I think we, all of us have different gifts and I know for me Reiki was such a powerful experience that that' ; s why I got attuned and I hope to like learn more about Reiki and practice it with community folks and even people who aren' ; t considered my community. Like I think like how much Reiki has healed me and thinking about the history of Reiki and how it was taken away during World War II and that because of the Japanese woman in Hawai' ; i that it was like preserved. Like, like she was trained before the war and then like had to like basically not train anyone else. Like for 30 or 40 years, she started training people in the ' ; 70s. Um, and how Reiki was outlawed in Japan during U.S. - I' ; m pretty sure I need to re-Google this - during the U.S. occupation. Um, because it was used on the military to heal wounds and to heal, um, to heal injuries for medical things and kind of how she brought it back to Japan, what was taken away. And so I think for me, part of healing intergenerational trauma is having a practice that was taken away during a time period where my family was extremely traumatized and like getting to help - I don' ; t heal people - but getting to facilitate people' ; s healing processes with a tradition that was outlawed because of the very thing that like caused the - probably all my issues or not all of them, I don' ; t know. But like it, it' ; s what it' ; s, it' ; s, that' ; s what healing intergenerational - like that' ; s what I can contribute. And not only give it to like other Japanese Americans, but to anyone who is seeking that kind of healing and to feeling empowered from having it be from the community and what was taken away. Yeah. That' ; s what I can offer. AT: 01:15:30 And, and what kind of, um, what kind of advice would you give to other young people who are interested in, um, you know, getting involved or organizing like that? What, you know, what would you leave with them? Especially given the current political moment? HK: 01:15:56 Um, I don' ; t like, it' ; s funny, I used to love giving advice and I still love it, but the more I learn, the less I want to give advice because I think life is a process and that you' ; ll learn as you go. And, uh, I, I guess the one piece of advice if I could give, would be to forgive yourself, to be kind to yourself and to, to know that the only constant is change. And I wouldn' ; t give them advice. I would just say what comforts me is that even though things are really bad right now - as a historian, it' ; s not as bad as it was. Like, that' ; s why I love history because it grounds me and it helps me see how far people have changed because the only change is constant. Um, and, uh, yeah, I hope, I hope that people, this is, you know, I hope that people see all human beings as human beings and that includes racist white people. Like that is like, that' ; s something I struggle with and it' ; s not my advice, but it' ; s, I, it' ; s just something I want to share that one of the most powerful things I learned in ethnic studies was that white people are human beings. Um, I didn' ; t think of white people as human beings before my master' ; s program, um, in between being politicized in Seattle and San Francisco. I thought of white people as like monsters. And I think Donald Trump and his followers are in the embodiment of like that but to really like change society, you have to change your heart. And part of that change is seeing everyone, even the worst people to try to find their humanity, which is a lot, I know, and I don' ; t ask anyone to do that, but that' ; s just something I try to do that, um, grounds me and, um, tries, tries to help me have more compassion. And I, I say the part about forgiveness because a lot of people are like, oh, I I don' ; t need to forgive myself. But for me, like I think what' ; s remarkable about our community is the way, the way I hear my grandpa talk about forgiveness and forgiving America. And um, the way the Nisei talk about is like, whoa. Like I think forgiveness is so critical to do sustainable work because not only is like you' ; re forgiving yourself for like having a bad breakup, you know, the interpersonal dynamics, but also forgiving - like if you can get to a place like the way the Nisei have, where they can forgive, like whoa, like, and forgiveness all it is it' ; s not excusing what happened - cause I think a lot of people think that' ; s what it means - it' ; s about letting go. This a Lily Tomlin - if I' ; m saying her right quote - it' ; s about letting go of the hope that the past could have been any different. And it' ; s all about letting go of like what you' ; ve been carrying. Um, and once you let that go, you can move forward. So that' ; s why forgiveness is really important and it' ; s easier to forgive other people or your country if you can start by forgiving yourself first for wishing that things were different and that, yeah. Yeah. You' ; re welcome. AT: 01:19:48 Um, is there, is there anything else that I may have missed or that you' ; d want to add, before we wrap up? HK: 01:20:01 Um, not for this interview. Yeah, I think I' ; m okay. Yeah. Like I said, everything I need to say for this set. Yeah. AT: 01:20:08 Thank you so much for coming on. Y. HK: 01:20:10 Yeah, thank you for doing this. This is really important work, so, yeah. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KeaveneyHiroki20170901.xml KeaveneyHiroki20170901.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Keaveney, Hiroki (9/1/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Oral History
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Takada, Anna
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Kimura, Helen
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5.4 4/19/2018 Kimura, Helen (4/19/2018) 2:03:58 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kimura, Helen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/334968756/469a0b9614 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/334968756?h=469a0b9614" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: (00:12) This is an interview with Helen Kimura as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago, Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on April 19 2018 at Helen Kimura' ; s residence in Glenview, Illinois. Helen Kimura is being interviewed by Anna Takata of the Japanese American Service Committee. Um, so to start, can you just please state your full name? Helen Kimura: (00:44) Helen Tomoko Hikido Kimura. Hikido is my maiden name. AT: (00:48) Okay. And, um. Can you, to start, can you just tell me about, um, when and where you were born? HK: (00:58) I was born in Centreville, California, um, which is today known as Fremont, California, northern part of California. I believe it' ; s a east of San Francisco in a rural area. AT: (01:15) Then what is your birthday? HK: (01:18) December 20th, 1937. AT: (01:24) And uh, can you tell me about how your parents ended up there? HK: (01:30) Yes. My father came from Wakayama Japan at the age of 20 in 1906. And he was planning to earn some money so he could pull his head up high and return to Wakayama to marry this gal that his parents had arranged for him to marry. However, after being here 10 years and working as a contract vegetable farmer in that area of Centerville, um, he was unable to accrue enough money to hold his head up high and returned to Japan. So he told his parents to please dismiss that first lady that they were arranging for him to marry when he return and sent him a young hearty adaptable young lady. So after 10 years of working here, he sent, my mother came from Wakayama also at the age of 19, so he was, um, 14 years older than she, and I don' ; t know how she endured it, but she was a young girl, um, mixing with the other farmers' ; wives who were older. And she often said that the thing that was most hurtful was the wives would take turns by week to serve lunch to the farmers that were in the field. And when would become my mother' ; s turn or meno' ; s turn, they quietly whisper, oh my gosh, it' ; s going to be, oh meno' ; s week. I wonder what junk she' ; s going to make. And she said she remembers that as the most painful time in her years as a young wife. AT: (03:19) Was that because she was younger.? HK: (03:21) Yes, yes. She was 19 and came from a rather comfortable family. Uh, I think she was one of 10 children. She was in the middle of the town and up to the time she was born she was the only girl. So there were five boys that ahead of her. And then she was the only girl and then years later there was another girl, but she was born amongst boys and I think cosseted. And when she came to the United States and found that she was going to be a farmer' ; s wife, she' ; d never done anything like that before. But that was something to get used to. And she worked alongside my father in the field doing squat labor that, that tomatoes and celery and very hard labor. She did I think have about seven pregnancies but only bore four children. And consequently my siblings are very much older than I. When I was born, my eldest brother was 19, my second brother was 18, and then my mother had several miscarriages and then, my sister was 12 and a half years older than I. Then I was born like an oops baby or a caboose or late, very late one child. So my mother was a 41 and my father was 55 something like that. There was 14 years difference between them. AT: (05:01) So, uh that puts you at the, the youngest of four children? HK: (05:06) Yes. AT: (05:11) And, so your siblings, um, were they also born in Centerville? HK: (05:19) Yes, I was the only child that was born in a hospital. The others were all midwives at home and I was breach so she had to be rushed to the hospital and that. But definitely they were having a hard time reviving me and I always joked with my father because he said the doctor asked me [?], I may only only be able to save one, your wife or the baby? And he said, of course, save my wife. So I would always kid my dad. You were going to let me go? AT: (05:55) Um, can you tell me a little bit about, um, uh, well, do you first, do you have any memories of Centerville? As a child? HK: (06:08) I do remember when I left I had a close girlfriend and um, when I left, my mom said to take all your toys and all your dresses, which weren' ; t many, do a dab. And I took her, took these to her and she asked me, well, why are you giving me these things? And I said, I' ; m going away. And I thought it was an adventure. I had never been on a train. And so, uh, she says, well, okay, when you coming back? And I says, I don' ; t know. I do remember that. And then she grabbed me and hugged me and cried. Another thing I remember is, um, sitting in vegetable crate boxes at the end of a row. My mother would be working towards me at the end of, I would be sitting in this play pen light type of thing in a crate box at the big bond and on, and my mom would work towards me. And then when she' ; s going next, the next row, she picked up this crate with me and it take it to the end of the next row. And when I fuss, she wouldn' ; t say, I' ; m coming, I' ; m coming, you know. And sometimes she' ; d give me a celery to cook, bite on. But um, and I do remember a neighbor, my mother' ; s church neighbor and friend, um, they had a, a gal that was a teenager and she would come over to pick me up and they were the Nemoto family, many children. And she was like a surrogate parent doing, she come to pick me up, take me to her home with her big family and I get dinner there. And even when we moved to Chicago, I went to visit her all the way from the south side to the north side. I mean, she was that very much close to me. AT: (08:13) And before the war broke out. What, what were your siblings doing? Were they in school or anything on the farm? HK: (08:24) My second brother was eighteen years older than I, ah, was graduating from San Diego State College and, uh, went immediately into the MIS military intelligence service. So I don' ; t recall even seeing him while we were being rounded up to go to camps. My older brother was working in the San Francisco grocery store and typical of the culture, the eldest son of a family in Japan is responsible for the aging parents. So he was working to augment the income. My younger brother, the younger one, was able to go to college. My sister was still a teenager and I was this little late born kid. And I do remember the story my mother told me. She said, um, when I knew I was going to have another baby you so much later than the other children, I didn' ; t know how I was going to tell your brother who was 19 years older and he was working in San Francisco as in a grocery store. And so, uh, when he came home for the weekend, she said, I sat down with him and cleared my throat and girded myself to tell them that I was pregnant. And so she said, I blurted out that, uh we' ; re going to have a baby. He said, who? She said your father and I and he took a breath. And then he said, oh, that' ; s great in Japanese. He said, here I am busting my butt working in a grocery store, thinking I' ; m going to have to support you because you guys are getting old. But if papa could make a baby I don' ; t have anything to worry about. And she said that made her more embarrassed than even telling him the news. And I guess that' ; s kind of relationship our family had just kind of joking around since that was, she' ; s, she relayed that to me and I thought that was really cute. AT: (10:39) What are the names of your siblings? HK: (10:41) The oldest was Mickey Owen and he went by Mike and the second was, um, Kenji, but he received many of names. He was George, he was Ken. And when he was in the service, he had the name of Pancho because he looked kind of Hispanic and he had this, um, mustache and he does look kind of Hispanic. And when he came home from the services, these phone calls would come in and ask, you know, is Pancho there? And I said " ; who?" ; So I asked him, ah, they gave me the name of Pancho. AT: (11:20) And your sister? HK: (11:22) My sister is Kayo, k, a, y, o and she adopted the name of Mae when she started school, Mae. Kayo Mae. AT: (11:36) And, so Mickey or Mike was. HK: (11:42) Mike. AT: (11:42) Mike was working, uh Kenji was in school. HK: (11:47) Military service, he was in the ROTC, so he was recruited right away. AT: (11:50) And um, so can you tell me about what you know about your family' ; s experience with the quote unquote evacuation and. HK: (12:01) Going back to what, I' ; m sorry? AT: (12:02) The, the quote unquote evacuation. HK: (12:05) Evacuation. Well, Kenji was in the army. My brother was angry because he wanted to join the army, but at that time they were restricted. So, um, I do remember when there was a big to do with the FBI' ; s coming to search our homes and my mother crying. I didn' ; t know why she was crying uh, and my father, uh, was being interrogated and for possible suspicion, but there was nothing that they could pin on him. And we were rather poor. So we didn' ; t have cameras or electronic things that they were looking for and they really searched hard. Um, then I remember uh, going to packing our bags and my mother packed nothing but food in my suitcase, fruit and nuts, so whatever she could find, cause she didn' ; t know what we were going and she layered me in clothes and I wouldn' ; t look like a little swaddling bundle walking towards the bus. I remember my girlfriend coming to the bus with her mom to say goodbye and she told me get a window seat and I says, okay. So I went to get an in-window seat, but all the windows were blocked so you couldn' ; t see out or in. So I wanted to get off the bus to wave goodbye to her, but they wouldn' ; t let you out of your seats either. That' ; s the last I remember off leaving Centerville. There is one other thing I recall when my brothers were all um, living at, living together in that house that my father kind of put together with his friends. It was a two bedroom. I log log cabin, I' ; d say. That was a outhouse. And um, my brothers would argue whose turn it was to sprinkle the floor because my father didn' ; t have enough money to put the florian, so it was kind of dirt and keep the dust down. They had to sprinkle the floor. And then. AT: (14:35) With what exactly? HK: (14:36) Water. AT: (14:36) Oh, oh, oh. HK: (14:37) And I remember my mother always yelling at the boys. Stop it! You know, it' ; s your turn. You did it last time. And the funny things like that, I remember, I stayed out of the fray, of course, I was too young. But, uh, I remember that. AT: (14:55) And um, so you, I, you were, you were quite young, you were four, about four years old. In your family lives. Um. But you, you, do you remember your friend Adele? Is that? HK: (15:11) Adele. AT: (15:13) A, Adele, HK: (15:15) Uhm, they, they owned a, I think, they owned a dairy farm. And she was a little older than I, I think I was rather precocious because I had such older brothers and sisters and I' ; m watching whatever they do. Um, and my friends were a little older. I just hung around with them. AT: (15:39) Would you happen to know what, um, at the time before the war broke out, kind of what the demographics of Centerville was? Were there other Japanese American families there? HK: (15:51) Yes. Most of them were vegetable farmers. Some of them had nice homes, and you know, better than ours. Frame homes. The bigger the family like Nemotos had more children to work with the farms, et cetera. So their income was a little better than those that didn' ; t have that many children. Um, I knew we had a barn and we had a chicken coop in front. I remember that clearly because when you had to have chicken for dinner, they would hack off the head and the chickens would fly around. I remember that. I remember the outhouse. But other than that, not too much of the physical, it wasn' ; t allowed to go wandering off by myself. So I was pretty kept confined to certain areas in just a few friends that they would let me visit. Never too far away. I wasn' ; t in school yet. So, but I think there were other, I don' ; t know if all the farmers that farmed with my dad on this leased farm lived in the area that we always saw them. And uh, they had trucks, pickup trucks they would pile into. So I don' ; t know if they came from various areas that they were picked up, but I saw them frequently. AT: (17:24) And uh, do you know if there were any, um, Japanese school or. HK: (17:32) Well, I know my brothers and my sisters went to school and uh, I saw their class pictures. There were other Japanese kids in there. I think they also went to um, a Japanese school on a weekend. AT: (17:52) And so at home, was Japanese the language that was spoken? HK: (17:56) In the, in the house, yes, amongst the parents, with the parents. But with my brothers and sisters, it was all English. So I don' ; t have a strong command of the adult Japanese that they did when I was more half and half. And My mother spoke half and half. Um, I could a lot of the Isseis, they didn' ; t say gyunyu which is milk, you know, they say miruku, you know, um, in the vegetables we' ; d call spinach. And I have a very, very funny story about my mom when she came to Chicago, which I don' ; t know what it would be proper to say it, but you know, she was combining what she learned in the factory and Japanese becasuse ...[?] very interesting, to say the least. AT: (18:46) We' ; ll, will, we' ; ll get there. HK: (18:49) You can edit it out. AT: (18:53) Um, was Your family religious at all? HK: (18:55) Yes. Um, I was raised in a devout Christian family and I did ask my mother, how did you become a Christian? And my father was here first, he came when he was 20 and he said he learned English by going to the Christian churches in the evening, which taught English. So his main reason for going to the church in the evenings was to learn English. And then when my mother came, he told her that if you wanted to learn English, go to the Christian churches. And when both of them were going to the church to improve their English, they started thinking about the religion. And there were some Japanese Issei Christians that were part of the membership became part of the membership and was sort of recruiting and proselytizing to the newcomers. And according to my mom, she said she was attracted to the Christian faith because in her lifetime up Buddhism or Shintoism was more a way of life. They didn' ; t have Sunday school at that time to learn about, um, what, what deity, uh, responsibilities they have, what responsibilities or deities had other than when someone died, you had a little shrine and you left some food for them and for your ancestry. But she said, I didn' ; t get the feeling of anything for us that Christianity gave us. And at that time I needed something to hang on to, to live this new life that I had. And both she and my father felt that the, uh, Christian religion, which had an afterlife, uh, appealed to them and the faith would help us get through the daily fate [?], would help us get through the difficulties that they knew they were going to encounter. And that my, my mother particularly was encountering at that time. So I think at her young age, she was very vulnerable to grasping onto something or that would help her. AT: (21:26) Umm. HK: (21:27) And my father supported her. And at one time she was so depressed and her life as a farmer' ; s wife, not having any other ladies her age that she said she cried. And my father said to her, there' ; s only one other job I could think of that I could transfer to. And that would be in Los Angeles. I think it was Japan town. Um, where should, he had a distant cousin that was managing a boarding house. So if you want to, we can go there. And that' ; s where she became pregnant with the first two boys and she said her daughter, her job was, it was a boarding house with very transient people came and went and it was cleaning up after these trenching people and the chamber pots that were there. And she says, being pregnant and the boys were 18 months apart. She said it became unbearable. So after my second brother was born, she says, I don' ; t think I can do this. I' ; m Mama [?] every day. And I still have to do the job. So he said, well, the only other recourse is to go back to Centerville and take up farming again. And she says, yes, I' ; ll do that. And so she was sort of locked into that life and she bored well and then, as it started getting on their feet, that' ; s when the war broke out. AT: (23:19) So um. Going from there. Can you kind of take me through what happened to your family during the war? HK: (23:28) Oh, from, from the time we left Centerville. We left Centerville, we boarded, boarded this bus and I heard a Japanese gentleman behind me in Japanese say, I think we' ; re going to the camp for a racetracks. I just heard racetracks and Japanese. And I turned to my mom and I said, oh, I think we' ; re going to the racetracks. We' ; re going to see some horses. And I told her in Japanese, you know, we' ; re going to see some horses, and she looked at me, she says, no, and you couldn' ; t see out of the windows. So when we alighted indeed, we were at the camp for racetracks. And when we got off the bus, I remember all these soldiers standing in a line in front of us, barricading us from going forward, but follow the line and go to this. I don' ; t know if I, this' ; s a [?] stall or a pen, but they had told my mother and I heard pick up a bag, I think it was a burlap sack and fill it with the hay. And I remember turning to my mom and say, see, we' ; re going to go feed the horses. And she said, no, we' ; re not. And I did ask her then why are we filling the hay in these bags? And she says, that' ; s where mattress and this is what we' ; re going to live. And we went and um, went to one of the barracks that were built, but my girlfriend lived in a stable and I played with her a lot. [?] Sometimes I sleep at her place, sometimes I sleep in the barracks. And I distinctly remember the barracks had the ceilings, they were pete and they were open at the top and you could hear everything, all the rooms down this barracks, um, what was going on. If a kid was being spanked and disciplined, you could hear all of that and then our parents would use that to deter us from doing anything naughty. You know, see he' ; s getting spanked. If you don' ; t, if you' ; re not good, that' ; s what happens to you. It' ; s a lot of times I go over to my girlfriend' ; s place and stay with her and stable, which was really worse conditions, terrible. But we didn' ; t know any better. I do recall, um, the, uh, food was served the mess hall was in the grandstand of the race tracks and we stood in long lines, the mess hall lines. And my father built a little carrier that' ; s like a pizza carrier. It had, it was a, um. It was a wooden peaked carry case that had a handle on top all out of wood and had a sliding door and there was a tray and he would go and get my meal and bring it back in that so that I wouldn' ; t have to stand in the lines. Especially if it were raining or you know, it was inclement weather. AT: (26:47) So he' ; d bring it back to the barrack. HK: (26:48) He bring it back to the barrack and then I eat in the barrack. AT: (26:53) And were you, so um, Kenji was serving, so he probably wasn' ; t there. HK: (26:58) He was not there at all. AT: (27:00) Ah, your sister and your oldest brother? HK: (27:02) They were there in Tanforan. We were there in Tanforan for six months while they were building the camps. And then we were told to get on this train. I don' ; t remember a hearing where we were going. I was very excited because I' ; d never been on a train and it took two nights in one day. I remember that. All the windows were again were all blocked. And to me it was an adventure. I got to sleep on it, you know, things that I' ; d never done before. And when we alighted it was in this desert area, um, the buses picked us up or some of them, some of them were put in pickup trucks and then we drove. Okay. I can' ; t remember how far but came to this desert plateau in Utah outside of Salt Lake City. And I' ; m with delighted. I thought I was at the beach and, um, I guess I didn' ; t really take notice of the bob wires. I knew there were a lot of black paper buildings. I don' ; t even think I noticed the centuries that were posted. But I learned from my husband when I, after I married him, and we were talking about our first impressions of our camp, he went to Manzanar and he said, you thought it was the beach? And I said, yeah, I mean, I always wondered what the beach was like. And I said, what did you think? And he said, well, that' ; s the first time I was really disciplined by my mom. She slapped me. He said, why? He says, I was really mad that they kept shuffling us around. I couldn' ; t bring my dog, who was, you know, my favorite friend and pet. And so now we come to this desert of Manzanar. And he said, I asked my mom, what are we doing here? And she said, we' ; re being protected. And he said, I looked at her and I said, that' ; s a lie. And that' ; s when he got his slap across the face. And she said, why do you say that? And he says, Mama, if you' ; re being protected, you see those rifles in those centuries up there, they would not be pointed in. They would be pointed out. And I asked him, how did you know that? I mean, I didn' ; t even look up there cause I was pretty sure he was two and a half years older than I. And he said, well, when I play cowboys and Indians, you' ; ll never protecting anybody by pointing a rifle at the person you' ; re protecting. I said, oh. And I used to tell my children, he had my respect from that day on, this is a smart guy. But, um, I do remember it just being wide expanse of sand. And I ran and took off my shoes and ran in there and I think I was happy. And I, I do remember the barracks and my sister, my brother, my father and I, and my mom lived in one, I think it was about maybe 15 by 20. We had one of the larger ends, and I know the pot belly stove because I would accompany my brother to go get the number to fill the pot belly stove. And then there was one light bulb, bare light bulb right near the stove and the blackout curtains my mother made. And uh, the army cots that we slept on. I do remember going to the bathroom little later on, um, in the middle of the night. And this is another thing I learned later on that was so naive. I told my sister, I said, you know, it' ; s really nice when you go out to the bathroom at night and the light comes in and shows you your way. And that' ; s when she said, no, they' ; re not showing you your way. Those are the search lights. They don' ; t, you know, you' ; re not supposed to be roaming around and looking for people that are trying to escape. I said, oh, that' ; s, that' ; s still nice. They show me the way through, go to the bathroom. But prior to that, my father had built a little chamber pot. He left when I was on the younger end, but as I got older, I didn' ; t want to sit on that anymore. AT: (31:53) It' ; s [?] is probably around the time that you deep potty trained and learn how to use it toilet. HK: (31:57) Yes, yes. But he didn' ; t want me to go walking out in the middle of the night going by myself. So he made this and of course, I really outgrew that right away. I' ; m a big girl and it' ; d be like my sister, you know. AT: (32:14) Um, so how long was your family in Topaz HK: (32:20) Uh, I' ; d say three and a half years. We went in in April, 42 and came out in December of 45. So, um, and I remember a lot of the things my mother told me when I was in camp, I was still, when I first entered too young to even go to kindergarten, which was held in one of the barracks. Um, and she would tell me, I' ; m working in the mess hall. Your dad is working, digging the ditches for the drainage system. Prior to the time he got a stroke. But, um, your older brother who' ; s waiting to join the army, uh, would be a, um, like a migrant farmer. The farmers would come pick up these young guys in pickup trucks and they go out for the day and earn a few pennies and then come back just to kill the time. And my mom would tell me, now you are all alone. You know there' ; s no one watching you, no one supervising you. I' ; m busy. That' ; s working. This is just in school. So you have to be a good girl because there are many eyes watching you. And one of the biggest problems here is idleness, if nothing else to see or do. So if they see some kid in trouble, they' ; re going to tell the parents so they' ; re not going to blame you if you' ; re naughty, they' ; re going to blame me. And years later I keep thinking of that saying how wise to teach young children to be responsible for their own actions. I saying it, it' ; s going to impact the most dearest thing in your life, which were your parents and I think many, many children that were young and in camp were told that it' ; s sort of cultural, don' ; t bring shame on the family, et Cetera. So on the whole, I think we were pretty well behaved, pretty, primarily the girls. And um, I do recall one time when some of the older girls be friend of me and they, my mom is to have a prayer meetings in our little room and there was this old man, Mr Kakimaru and he catered to me. There weren' ; t too many young children amongst his peers, you know. And so he would always give me candy or you know, was very solicitous of me. And these girls who are older than I, they were probably 9, 10 and they, many of the um, entries with stand in this long PX line to buy something in the PX store. And um, AT: (35:19) PX? HK: (35:19) It was the, um, I can' ; t remember the name of what it was run by the military, and you buy sundries, little things [?], toothpaste and stuff like candy and um, these entries were all standing in line and these girls are telling me, that' ; s Mr. Kakimaru he' ; s always so good to you, why don' ; t you go up there and ask him for some money? Then, maybe we could buy some candy. And I didn' ; t know what to do with their, these were my friends, they were older, you know. So she pushed me up, I went up to him and he said, come like this, go up to him asking for some money. So I went up and um, I don' ; t know what he said, but I know I said, can I have some money to buy some candy? And the ladies that were standing behind him heard this, true to form of what my mother told me, and he gave me a nickel or something and I ran back and gave it to the big girls. That evening, um, and that evening I was also supposed to go to um, Japanese language school. And that evening my mother heard from the neighbors that your child went up to Mr. Kakimaru and begged for money. Well, my mother came up to me and did you do that? I says, well, yeah, because the girls said, you know, Mr. Kakimaru was telling me to come over and they figured that he' ; s going to give me something. So they said, ask for a nickel or, I can' ; t remember. And so that' ; s what I did. And she said, didn' ; t I tell you, you have, you have to be a good girl and you don' ; t go begging. And I must' ; ve been about five. And so she said, which hand did you put your hand off for him? And I said, this hand. My sister had just come home from school and I don' ; t, I still don' ; t know the product that my mother used to use for [?]. [?] was, it was like a little moss that you put on achy places for arthritis and you put it on there and then you light it and it would just smolder and give you heat. And I knew she used to use that on her shoulders or whatever ached. So she told my sister to hold me, she put me on the, on the cod, just hold her and just make sure her hand stays out and she says, put your thumb up. And My mother put this thing on my knuckle here, it was, looked like a piece of moss and she lit it. And I just think the thought of the match scared the heck out of me and I was crying and she said don' ; t move. And after it was over, I did have a scar for many many years. I don' ; t recall it hurting that much or whatever, but it was like a little blister I guess. And it became like a little scar and I had that til I was in high school. And that was a definite reminder to always behave. Don' ; t do anything naughty. But I didn' ; t know I was really doing anything naughty because I just, these older girls, you know, should know right from wrong, but I remember that so clearly. AT: (38:54) Well, and you had mentioned that your um, your family everyone was kind of out doing their own thing and even at such a young age you were kind of left to your own devices. HK: (39:07) Yes. AT: (39:07) So does that mean that you were to stay in the barrack all day, or what was. HK: (39:12) No, I just stay, I, I, I would go walk from my barrack to the next block, three blocks over and play with my friends. Most of my friends were little older. Um, there weren' ; t too many that were my age whose parents were working. Um, so if I didn' ; t like what was going to be served at my mess hall, I would ask, I would tell my mom, I' ; m going to go eat with Misako. It' ; s okay. So I have a lot of freedom. I would go to another place and another girl' ; s apartment apartment and play with her. I remember this one girl Ayako, she her, um, her father had a lot of arthritis and a treatment for that would be for her to walk on his back. It' ; s sort of like a flir [?] with her massage and her weight. And I remember doing that. So she says, why don' ; t you take a turn? So I would walk on her father' ; s back, back and forth. We' ; d entertain yourself by going to different blocks. Um, this lady that I told you, uh, was sort of like a surrogate mother or a sister to me lived in the next block. AT: (40:37) And her name was ... ? HK: (40:37) I go see Chie-chang and she' ; d entertained me. We worked in a little garden that she was planting, just [?] roam all over. The thing I do remember was the little kids, of my age and my block, we' ; d always carry a twig or a stick that we found in our little pocket or belt loop the boys and have it in the belt loop and someone would shout, snake time, snake time and we would all run to the laundry facility and it was a long room, maybe 25 feet long. And they had all these ropes we could hang your sheets and things after you wash them. And that meant that a rattlesnake. So snake weight the weight into the laundry room and we' ; d all line up shoulder to shoulder and we get our little twig out and then you put it under this rattlesnake or any snake and you walk it over til it fell off. Then the next kid would put his up and we do that till we got it out to the desert. That' ; s a game that I' ; ll never forget all we, when we' ; d hear that, we just gravitate to what [?] saying that. Another game was, um, catching dragonflies. You have dragon fly races. And my mother gave me, uh, uh, the envelope, not a pimple [?] about, spool of thread. And I called that in my pocket and we get an ice dragon fire. Someone would hold it by the wings and we tie this a thread very lightly around your body and let it out. And that would be like a Kite. Now most of the dragonflies would go round and round trying to get free. But when they say, okay, races on, ready, set, go, you let go of your thread and the dragon fly that when straightest won, never, no prizes or anything but just the honor of your dragon fly went straight and they all said, well, there' ; s certain ways you can tie the thread that makes them go straight. And you know, all those things that people made up. But I remember that very clearly. And um, the toads we used to bring home and my mother would have a fit, but uh, the um, ditches that my father then men were digging for the drainage system in the desert. It' ; s very hot and they would get up to a hundred degrees, you have no fan or ventilation. And then there was a rain, these ditches would fill up with muddy water and we take off our shoes, pull up our dresses and jump into them and just [violently treading and splashing sound], and interestingly, our parents, my parents never scolded me. And I did ask her many years later, I said, you know, when I think of how muddy we were, she said, well, it was your form of entertainment. You know, there were no swimming pools at that time. So we all just felt that this was recreation for you. And I don' ; t know any of the mothers that be rated their children unless they were older and knew better and got there at school pants, all dirty. But we know how to protect our clothes and the girls just put their things in her panties and winning [?] up to here. AT: (44:19) Were you ever up school age or did you ever graduate school in camp? HK: (44:23) Yes. Um, I went in at four and a half and I don' ; t remember kindergarten so much, but I do remember going into a barrack and there was a long bench much like our tarots [?]. And we sat on our knees. There are no desks and we said elbow to elbow with the next student. And we colored or did whatever we had to. And my teacher' ; s name was Mrs. Seal. And she came from the, uh, outside of the community. And if you were a professional Japanese American prior to coming in, you could teach, or you could be a doctor for very small amount of payment just to keep busy. But, um, there were quite a few Caucasian teachers that came in. We had a Sunday school there. And, um, the Christian children, we' ; d go to Sunday school and I remember these big picture book with Jesus sitting in the middle and, uh, the different ethnicities of children around him. And this will lead to a story that I had when I came out of the camps, which is so vivid in my mind. But to me it was how everybody lived. I didn' ; t complain. I thought it was fun. I had a lot of freedom. You gain confidence because you can take care of yourself. Um, and I think that benefited me as I came out of the camps and adapted to various types of, uh, communities. And, um, actually when I look back, a lot of the values I received from my parents examples, quiet examples, uh, of forbearance, of discipline, persevering just unconsciously I think becomes part of your attitude and value system. And when I look back, I think my life has really been a string of blessings because of that early experience. So I don' ; t think I was negatively impacted. I was too young. But my brother did finally go into the army. The second one when they opened the enlistment and I later learned from my husband whose brothers also went in that, um, one of the bigger camps, I think it was Manzanar had, um, students that were, um, young people that were key base, you know, key base are, and came back after doing the elementary school in Japan under their grandparents' ; tutelage, were very upset to be put in these camps cause they had a dual loyalty in a way, or dual background and the Japanese American kids that never went to Japan didn' ; t know anything about Japan. We' ; re saying, we want to join the army. You know, why don' ; t they let us join the army and the, little bunch of key bay kids are the no no kids were saying, what do you want to do that for? You know, you' ; re American citizens, we' ; re all American citizens and were imprisoned here? I don' ; t know why you guys want to go fight for them. This is what they did to you. So there was this conflict according to my husband and his brothers were, of course, wanting to go into the army as my brothers were in my camp. We didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have that type of a conflict. But I think because of this big conflict in this one camp, it resonated with the government that think, okay, we don' ; t want this infecting all the camps so we will open the enlistment. And that' ; s when you saw the mass exodus of all these army aged kids and that' ; s when my older brother was able to go out and serve his country. And interestingly, I did ask my mom, did you, did you have to give them permission? And she said yes. And I said, did you have some feelings about that? She said, no. I said, well, why not? Did you have some animosity towards the people that put you here and now your sons are going to give their lives for them? It' ; s just, no, this is your future. And they are fighting for their future and your future. Why would I stop them from doing that? And little things like that come back to me, which makes me feel that they sacrifice a lot of what they didn' ; t tell us, kept it in. I' ; m sure they had feelings of the emotional trauma, being uprooted at losing everything you worked for and then your sons want to go and fight for their forefathers. You know, and I did read some books where some infantry men that were, uh, stations, Japanese Americans that were stationed in, um, the battalions with the battalions in Hiroshima or some of the islands would come across somebody that could be their relative. And I think about that. But my, my, um, brother that was in the infantry was not in Japan, the older one who was in MIS. Um, I think he communicated a lot with him, but he was more in Australia and some other places. But I would, would like to ask them, you know, did you know of anybody that that happened to? AT: (50:35) Do you remember when Mike left camp to join? HK: (50:40) Well I don' ; t know what the year was, let' ; s see, we were in there at 1942. AT: (50:47) I believe 43 is the year. HK: (50:50) Yeah. I, he went in as soon as it opened up. I know that because I have very little memories of him in camp with us eating with us, sleeping with us. All I know is that in the early part he would get on a pickup truck and go somewhere and was happy to get a little bit of money to pay, go to the PX and buy something. AT: (51:17) Umm. And you, you actually just mentioned, you touched on something that I was curious about, um, did your family continue to, to eat together and kind of function as a family union HK: (51:28) No, that' ; s, that' ; s where you lost all community within your family. Um, my mom is working in the mess hall. My father had had a stroke. Um, I would find they didn' ; t want to sit with anybody. No, there wasn' ; t a time where we' ; re going to eat at this time. Be there. You just came. And if you happen to be with your family at the same time, you could sit if there was room, but they were like picnic tables, so you kind of have to save a spot, which no one did. And I just don' ; t remember eating with my family. I was very happy to eat with Sea, a man, older man, who I would chit chat with. It didn' ; t matter if he was older or my age. I did like to eat with my friends at lunch time. Dinner time, usually, was at our [?] because it was getting dark but lunchtime I would eat with my friend Misako, and uh, Yoshiko and go to their block. And those are people that we kind of knew in the Centerville area. And we went to the same camp. AT: (52:49) Did you, I know this, this is a very specific thing to remember, but um, do you ever remember any conversations with your parents, you know. As a child about, about the situation and kind of what was happening to your family? HK: (53:09) No, that' ; s one thing I don' ; t remember. Um, because I was so young and I didn' ; t even think my mother talked a whole lot with my sister who was a teenager. I think they had more conversation with the two older boys when they were younger, but, um, they weren' ; t fluent in English. By then I, English was my first language and the only time I remember having conversations with my mother was when it was a directive or like the punishment. No chit chat or life lessons. Um, how are you doing in school or anything like that? No. Did you, did you go to Japanese school today? You know, um, did you sweep the floor? More directives. No real conversations. And that went on pretty much most of our lives. And when we came out, you were so involved in moving forward. You have your Caucasian friends, you have your Nisei peers, you' ; re doing this, going into this. Um, they had to Japanese speaking church, her group would come over for prayer meetings at our house. I don' ; t interfere and say hello. I spoke a lot to my sister who was 12 years older than I. AT: (54:48) And, um. Looking back now, uh, in what ways would you say, ummm, or, in what ways do you think that the, the whole evacuation and camp experience impacted your family? Like what? HK: (55:12) Well, I never heard any complaints from my brothers. They talked a lot about their army experiences and again, I think all of us, we were focused on our futures. They knew that eventually they' ; re going to get out of there. I didn' ; t, I thought this was how everyone lived. Um. And my brothers were gone throughout our incarceration. My sister was a teenager when she graduated high school. She was a, sponsored by the white single family in Lansing, Michigan if you wanted to go to college. Um, she and her friends, these younger sisters of the lady that I thought was my surrogate mother from Centerville, she had two [?] younger sisters, they were about my sister' ; s ages, and um, they all decided they want to go to Michigan State University. So if you had a sponsor out there where you could be a domestic to fulfill your years of residency requirement, they would, house you and feed you. And I don' ; t quite know how the tuition was paid, but I think, uh, I, I, I have never asked about that, but they must have gotten some help. And I don' ; t know if these sponsors were going to partially help them with the government' ; s help or whatever, something was, uh, prepared for them. So my sister left when she graduated, went with the girlfriends to Lansing, Michigan. And unfortunately she was working for about, maybe seven months and she came down with tuberculosis. Now when she was in the camps as a high schooler, she did volunteer like a candy striper at the infirmary. And I didn' ; t know this, but I think tuberculosis was one of the diseases that was running around there. So when she came down with tuberculosis in Lansing, Michigan, they got, it was a remnant of Topaz. So at that time there were no antibiotics. So she was put in a tuberculosis sanatorium. And, um, while she was there, I just think of the strength of my mother. They had written her saying that my sister may need to have a lung removed and which he signed up for two [?] procedures and my mom said, no, I want to see her before I sign anything because at that time, who knows, you know, she might' ; ve died. So she asked me, took me to the war relocation center office and pleaded her case that I need to go see my daughter, she needs this operation and I won' ; t allow it until I see her. And um, and I would have to take my daughter here because there' ; s no one that' ; s going to be able to watch her. So they did relent and I remember this so clearly. I was sort of like her interpreter with words she couldn' ; t remember. And I think that was about five and a half. And we got on this train and it was a freight train with all GIs sitting on the floor. And we were probably the only females on the floor facing them. And my mom made me this dress, a skirt out of the blackout curtains and her, took one of her blouses, a slips and maybe a blouse. Cause we were going on a train to Michigan. And, um, we sat on the floor and [?] my mom said, no, don' ; t drink a lot of water because I' ; m not going to go through two freight trains to go to the train that has a potty that will be pitstops. So just hold it, don' ; t drink a lot of water. And the other mancho she would always say is put your legs down but your skirt between your legs, put your dre, constantly because of a little child, you' ; re fiddling around and you didn' ; t wear, girls didn' ; t wear pants in those days. So I remember that so clearly and pitstops in the awfully long and I didn' ; t quite make it. And prior to going on this trip, we had, uh, I had a chance to order things from Sears Roebuck and I ordered flowered cotton panties. And this was the first purchase I had underwear and I was so proud of them. I mean they have different colored flowers on them. And, uh, when I kind of piddled in it and we got off at the pitstop. My mom says [?] panties and I thought she was going to wash them out but she threw him out. I' ; ll never forget that I was sullen. I pouted I wouldn' ; t look at her for the rest of the trip from Utah to Lansing, Michigan and those who are my dearest possessions, they were brand new. And so they' ; re all the more but your dress down but just between your legs. Cause then I had nothing to wear [?]. And she said, I said, why did you throw them out? She says, well we couldn' ; t take these wet things with me. I had nothing to wrap them in whenever it started leaking and I just wouldn' ; t listen to her. And I remember that so clearly. And we were met in Michigan by the Weisenger family and then Mr. and Mrs. Weisenger and they drove us to their home, which to me was like a castle. And it was a white frame house. Two stories, green grass, huge lawn. They had a collie dog. They had a teenage son, Johnny, Johnny Weisenger, and I thought I' ; d died and gone to heaven. I mean all my gosh, my sister' ; s room had her own bathroom. I' ; d never seen a separate bathroom, only was the latrines and you know that we had in the camps and the outhouse when we lived in California and she had a canopy bed [?] like Organdy type of stuff on it, you know, in this thing, and I reach out to [?] live here forever. It was like a princess. And um, we would go, Mrs. Weisenger would take us to the sanitorium every day. We had five days, so four days we could stay there. And then the fish, they would have to travel. AT: (01:02:39) Going back to Topaz. HK: (01:02:40) Topaz, yes. And um, my mom was praying every time I saw her, had a bible out and praying. She asked everybody in the church or Christians friends, please pray for my husband who was in the infirmary. Brace for my boys who were in service. Pray for my daughter who was going to have to have a surgery. Pray that we get there safely. That' ; s all I remember. My mom always in prayer. She would get to see my sister in her room. I have to stay behind the glass because I was a minor. And I remember my sister telling me later, oh my gosh, when I looking out of the glass and see you still going to smile up at me, all I saw were the whites of your eyes and the whites of your teeth because it was all sunburned. And she said, is that right, is that amazing baby sister. And she was as white as snow cause she was so pale and she heard complexsion was lighter than mine. And I just thought she looked like a ghost. And um, we were there for four days every day. And at the end of the fourth day, the doctor came out and he says, I don' ; t know what happened, but I don' ; t think that to my mother, your daughter, we' ; ll need this operation. Of course now my mom became very, very good. Well, you know, her prayers were answered and then we came home at that time there were two Nisei fellows, I don' ; t know. Oh, I think they took, they had a car, they took their sisters to, um, Lansing and then we' ; re going to be driving back. So instead of taking the train, we were able to get her ride with them. That' ; s when I discovered discrimination because they wouldn' ; t let us out of the car when they go into this little storefront to buy a hamburger or a sandwich, you know, and you stay in the car. And then I could see, I asked my mom why I cannot go with Harold. And she said, but because they don' ; t want us in there. And I could see how they were kind of mean to Harold, who was, Harold must' ; ve been about oh 26 or something. And he' ; d come in and I distinctly remember the radio, the song no can do, no can do a mama and a papa say no can do. And that played that over and over from Lansing, Michigan, all the way to Utah. And it must' ; ve been the song of that era and they just played it over and over in New York [?]. It' ; s funny things that you remember, but I do remember having to stop for meals, which was very sparse. And the fact that some people did not like it. I didn' ; t feel that in California, but I did see how they were. Ummm. Seeing slurs, you know, uh, just by the looks in their eyes, they were not very nice to Harold that was going in to pick up on meal AT: (01:06:01) So, this is from viewing from the inside .. trip. HK: (01:06:03) Inside the car. I never got out of the car. AT: (01:06:08) Uhmm HK: (01:06:08) Then, when I had to go to the bathroom, it was in the bushes. AT: (01:06:12) And so when you got back to Topaz, ummm. Around what time, Ummm, was this when your sister was in Lansing? And. HK: (01:06:27) Gosh, let' ; s see, two ... About 44? I' ; m thinking because she was still in there, but we came out. AT: (01:06:39) Oh, okay. HK: (01:06:40) Yeah, she was still in there. And that was another reason why we chose to come to Chicago. There were four reasons, you know, one before they would release you would be to pledge your allegiance to the United States and be willing to go to war for it. And my mom says, my two boys are in the army. Uh, secondly, you had to have a job prospect. Um, big companies like International Harvester, Scott Foresman, we' ; re saying come to Chicago, big clothing manufacturing companies. Um, we' ; re saying because a lot of the ladies could saw and so come to Chicago, we have jobs for you. And thirdly, you had to have, um, a place to live or a sponsor. And my mother' ; s cousin was a doctor and he was recruited a little earlier than our release time from Topaz to, uh, take a professorship at the University of Illinois, a medical campus. So he came out earlier and he sponsored us to come and stay near him because in the apartment building he was in on the south side. Um, there was another doctor who was, uh, from Hawaii and he was going to be going back to Hawaii or vacation or something and his apartment was going to be empty. So I guess my mother' ; s cousin said, you know, my cousin is coming out. Could they stay here for a couple of weeks or so till I can find them a place to live. And indeed we did stay there and we found a big apartment building just about walk-down. Uh, and it was perfect. There was two large u-shaped apartment buildings or the owners were saying, we will rent to you Japanese people. So it was a mixed population but a lot of Japanese people that were coming out of the various camps. So again, it was an ideal situation for me. There were kids my age, there were a lot of young kids whose parents married and started their families and had these babies and young toddlers so I could babysit in this huge apartment building, um, and earn money from the age of nine. So I had a regular babysitting job from nine years old. Uh, our next door neighbor, they wanted to manage a grocery store on the west side of Chicago. So since our apartment was right next to them when their children came home from school, it was my duty to watch them feed them their dinner, which the mother had already prepared because certain nights they stayed open late at the grocery store. And because my parents live right next door, you know, if there was any emergency, I had my parents. So it was an ideal situation. And then I had two families above me with young children. So other times when the parents wanted to go to a JC on dance or something, I would be able to dance, uh, watch their kids or we would bring a lot of the childrens to one apartment and I would babysit them. So it was a good moneymaker for me. AT: (01:10:03) What, uh, would you happen to remember the address or where this. HK: (01:10:06) 3835 South Lake Park Avenue was the u-shaped buildings that we moved into [?]. Most of those kids went with us to [inaudible] grammar school, which was on 40th street, Lake Park, so straight down Lake Park. And throughout going from our 38 all the way at grammar school, all these apartment buildings had some Japanese in them as well as other ethnicities. And I remember I was going to tell you the story the first day I went to school, um, my, my mother went off to her job in a dress factory. My brothers, one of them after he came out of the army, was managing a, cleaners in Detroit with his GI buddy. My, uh, older brother, he was working at International Harvester and my sister was still in the sanatorium. And I remember going to school Okumon [?] school, which was a fairly new school, two stories high, beautiful campus around it. And I went and when my mom came home, I said, mama, you should see my school. And I said, is this heaven? And she said, what? I said, this is heaven? And she says, no, why do you ask that? I said you should see my school. It has all the children of the world and the only relation I had to diversity in such amount was in the picture book during Sunday school. And I said, you know, like that book we used to sing out of in Sunday school, Jesus loves us. They are children, all the children of the world, red and yellow, black and white. I says, you know, when I go to school, I see all these children. And she started crying and I said, what, why are you crying Mama? And she says, um, I' ; m happy for you, but that I kind of felt that that wasn' ; t the truth. And years later when I was in high school and read a book, I had a book, that I read on the incarceration as the first time I read a book on the incarceration and had to give an oral book report. And I told the story and included some of my experience and the questions from the children were so interesting because they, they knew everything about us [?]. They had a regular life and they kept asking, well, what did your parents think? You know, and I realized then, I never really thought to even ask my parents, tell me about how you felt because as a child, you keep moving forward. And um, I went home that evening [?] answering all the different questions and I said, you, I really don' ; t know, uh, parents speak Japanese and I speak mostly English and they' ; re so much older than most parents. I do think I should ask them. So I did go home and talk to my mother about it and it was very vague. You know, I' ; m getting, you know, you just come on and um, I see, you know, there' ; s something that' ; s been in the back of my mind from the first day I went to school at Okumon [?] and I told you about the diversity for kids. And I kind of thought maybe this was heaven and you crying. I said, was that the truth mama? And she said, no. I said, why did you cry? And she said, my big goal in life was to see that I can raise this late born child to adulthood and here we are after the camp experience and you' ; re going to your first real school. And I realized you never saw diversity before. You kind of think that this is like heaven and she said, I felt so derelict in my duty, in my goal, that you had these notions that most children your age, no, they don' ; t even question it. And that hit me and that' ; s why I cried. And I said, isn' ; t that interesting that even at that young age I knew it was shielding something from me. And it wasn' ; t till I was in high school in an all white classroom that their questions brought that to mind and they' ; re probably have a lot of conversations with their families and the families probably tell their parents, tell them what happened to them when they were younger, et cetera. And it was the sort of like a light bulb moment for me. And I remember that so clearly when she said the tears in her eyes, she said, my goal in life was to raise you to adulthood and please [?] let me live until I could raise her to adult eighteen. And interestingly when I did graduate, she had a breakdown. She went into depression and the psychiatrist at that time said, I think this is a delayed menopause, she was so driven to make sure you reached adulthood and after that her, her goal in life was over. And I feel guilty because when I graduated in January of 56, I said, mama, you don' ; t have to work anymore. I had a very good job as a public stenographer at the peoples' ; gas lighting Coke Company. And , I said, you don' ; t have to work anymore. She was working at a cleaners on the west side. One of her church members had a cleaners way on the west side and she would take that bus to the street car every day, five days a week. My father was an invalid. He had a hem, uh, he was Hemiplegic, stayed in the house but thankfully he was able to fend for himself. He could dress himself. He had done a Hemiplegia so he was paralyzed on just my time [?]. But I thought I was doing her a favor and I said, mama, you don' ; t have to work. I got a good job. I will supplement. But my brother was bringing in and my sister was bringing in, you stay home, take care of papa. And it was Feb. I [?] graduated in January. It was about the end of February. And I came home and papa said, I dunno what' ; s a matter with your mom? But she hasn' ; t changed out of her pajamas. She hasn' ; t gotten out of that chair since you left, she' ; s been facing that window. That' ; s when I knew something was wrong. And when my sister came home from, um, steiner school, I forgot the name of it, the synography school at that time, she said, I' ; ve told, I says, [inaudible] mail has been [?] like that all. She doesn' ; t speak and she' ; s a very chatty person. And my sister said, I think we need to take her to the doctor. And we tried to find a Japanese psychiatrist. There was no such thing [?]. So we have to go with an English speaking psychiatrists. And she was an a psychiatric clinic, that unit, inpatient unit of the south side for about four months. She had electroshock therapy and she forget everything. It would put her into Amnesia and then she gradually recovered. And it was an ongoing thing for about a year in and out, in and out. AT: (01:18:31) This is the, uh, 1956? HK: (01:18:35) And thankfully, um, it took her, I' ; d say maybe two and a half years to fully recover, but she didn' ; t have any regression. But every January she would have a regression. It, you could see signs of it coming back again. It' ; s amazing what time does to your brain. She without even knowing that this is a time when she went into depression, I guess memories would come up and would sugar [?] again, another slight visit to the, um, clinic, let you had to go to freshen up there [?], which was that time, they didn' ; t have any drugs for depression and it was this barbaric method of shock therapy. And I remember that very clearly and she wouldn' ; t know a thing when she came home. So I learned at a very young age to be responsible for not only my father who was disabled since camp, but now my mom and my siblings had to go off and make a living and my mother couldn' ; t work anymore. So it was, it was a difficult time, but I think all of that served to benefit me to make something of myself and to go back a bit after I had this wonderful grammar school experience with all my friends that I developed that also came out from the camps that were my age and the diversity of the population in school. That became more and more ethnically diverse by the time I graduated. I did, um, graduate in a winter class somewhere along the line because I' ; m a December baby. I was, um, I have a year or so behind when I came out to camp to start school. So, um, somehow they felt that I should be double promoted or whatever. So I missed finishing school with the kids that I started with, you know, Amy and all those other kids. So I was in a winter class half a semester ahead of them, have a year ahead of them and I graduated and I was so hoping to connect with all my classmates in Hyde Park. But the neighborhood was really changing and my siblings and my mother who were the breadwinners at that time, we were living on the south side [?] that we had to move for my sake because they didn' ; t want me walking that distance by myself. So AT: (01:21:28) What exactly was changing about .. [?] HK: (01:21:30) There were, well, there were more, um, blacks coming in. I remember my brother slept on the, um, we had, uh, we moved several times in this apartment building from a small apartment as income increased. And the last apartment we lived in had three bedrooms. It was a long apartment. My mother and father slept in the small bedroom in front by the kitchen. We had a dining room and then we had a bathroom and my sister and I slept in the larger bedroom that was next to the bathroom. We had an adjoining door and now my brothers, actually it was two bedrooms. My brother slept on the sun porch. AT: (01:22:12) Was this a different building, or just a? HK: (01:22:14) Same building, but they had different size apartments and cause the first department we moved in had one bedroom, one bath and six of us lived in there. When my sister came out, that' ; s the apartment we lived in. My sister and mother slept in the dining room, my father and brother slept in the double bed in the bedroom. I slept in a roll away cocked and when my brother Ken, Kenji came home from Detroit, uh, from working at the cleaners there. He slept on the hideaway sofa in the living room and one bathroom. I didn' ; t know how, when I think back on how luxuriously we grew, you know, my children grew up. How did all those people, my mother, my two brothers and my sister and I use one bathroom, they had to get out to go to work. I was a little later cause I went to school on my own. How did we do it in the morning with this one little bitty bathroom? Unreal. And how we used to live, have dinner at the small kitchen at table and the small kitchen and um, it would be so hot that when the boys came home from work and my father would be roasting, they wear these sleeveless undershirts and the boys would just wear their shorts. I mean they' ; re undershorts cause they' ; re so hot. And my sister would come home from school or Steiner school, put on a pair of shorts and sit there with her bra. My mother comes home from the factory. She would wear a slip, take off her nice dress, just have a slip and put an apron on. And I think about that, you know, didn' ; t think anything of it. And we sit around this little chrome table and here is where I wanted to tell the story about my mom. She would work at this dress factory piecework every puff sleeve she made for a child' ; s dress, she would get a ticket and my job, she' ; d come home with her, [?] full of tickets and she said, you sit at the kitchen table while I' ; m finishing dinner and I want you to paste them in this booklet. Don' ; t lose them because that' ; s my paycheck. That' ; s on Friday. She would get paid and I remember one day she was making dinner and she must have cut a finger or done something. All of a sudden she shouts, Sakana spinach and I said, what did you say, she said, oh, they say that at the factory. Every time things go wrong, they say, Sakana spinach. And I think I was about eating heaven [?]. And I said, um, are you saying son of a bitch? Yeah, they say that all the time. And I ask, Mama. And she said devoted Christian, right? I said, mama, I, I think that' ; s a swear word. I think you' ; re saying son of a bitch. She says, yeah, that' ; s what they say, Sakana spinach. So what does it mean? Sakana spinach, and I said, well, it' ; s a bad word. I don' ; t know of the meaning, all I know it' ; s a bad word. So I said, I don' ; t think you should say it anymore. So when my brothers came home individually from their jobs, I said, you know you, you better go talk to mama and tell her what son of a bitch means. And they said, what did you say? And all of a sudden the attention was drawn to me. And where did you learn that word? Where did you learn it? You don' ; t ever say it, do you, I said no, no. I just know it' ; s, it' ; s a bad word. And mama was saying Sakana spinach and she was mad [laughing sound]. I just thought it sounded like the swear word. I said, I think you' ; d better tell her cause she asked me what' ; s it meaning? And I said, I don' ; t know. So they were too embarrassed to tell mama. AT: (01:26:30) How old were you at that time? HK: (01:26:30) I think I was about 11 and then my, um, sister came home. I told her, uh, she was more understanding and she says, oh my God. So she goes into the kitchen and mama you were saying Sakana spinach, but you know, that' ; s a bad word in English. It' ; s something else and this is what it means. Helen didn' ; t know what it meant and my English name was Helen and so, um, I could, by then I was in the living room doing something and I could hear my mom said, oh, forgive me in Japanese, forgive me Lord. I didn' ; t know what I was saying. I promise I' ; ll never say it again [laughing sound]. And I remember that so clearly because she was shrinking it. And I' ; m looking at my brothers, you know, and then [mumbling and inaudible]. AT: (01:27:21) When you, when your family was in Chicago, were you going to a church here? HK: (01:27:26) Yes. I' ; ve always gone to church. When I lived on the south side, I went to the Alice community center church, uh, with the, um, revered Nishimodo. And that' ; s where some of my other friends that came from the camps, some of them were attending different elementary schools for their style. And that' ; s why I got to know them, that we weren' ; t going to Oakland Wall [?]. They all different, went to Hyde Park. But I got to know other Japanese American kids that were my peers from there. And it was a long walk for me, but I walked all the way from 38 all the way down there. And um, that was the beginning of, of I guess, uh, knowing that, uh, maybe some boys might like you because they would walk all the way. I' ; ll walk you. I said, no, you won' ; t. I live far away. But you know, a couple of them a couple of times when they fall down, how far it was [laughing sound], but it was, it was a time of blossoming and getting to know new people, you know, going into puberty, you know. And then when I moved, um, to the north side to go to high school, um, my mom was very, my parents were very religious and the people that they worshiped within Topaz would meet at each other' ; s places and they moved to Chicago and they were the Issei group and they pulled their money. I don' ; t know how they did it, but bought this church that was a half a block from where our house was in the north side. It was a three story flat that my brothers and sisters and mother pooled their money and bought this three story flat. So when my older brother got married, he lived in one apartment and I thought, you know, when each kid got married, they could have a place to live. The bulk of us lived on the second floor, which was a big apartment. My older brother lived on the first floor after he got married with his family and we rented out the third floor to another Japanese American family and um, that could bring in some income to kind of pay the mortgage. We lived right across the street from the low [?] and Masonic Hospital where I did a lot of nurses aid work, candy striping as earning money. My church was half a block away. The Issei people, um, pulled their money, bought this, uh, church that was a frame old church and the building behind it, which was a sanctuary for the minister. And we have movies of that. Or you could see these Issei men loaded truck going to some churches that were being demolished, bringing stained glass windows of pews, everything to remodel this church. And that was a labor of love just to watch them. And they remodeled the whole place. It wasn' ; t a beautiful church, but it was serviceable. We had the basement Sunday school and then the, the sanctuary the, um, uh, the other, I forgot the [?] name of it, but the building behind it where the minister usually [inaudible] stays and um, use that as Sunday school room too. So I [?] really, um, from the time I moved to the north side was very involved with the church from the time I was a Sunday school teacher to a choir director. I got married there, AT: (01:31:22) What was the name of that Church? HK: (01:31:22) Lake Side at that time, Lake Side Japanese Christian Church on the corner of Sheffield and Wellington. And, um, it was another time of development for me. Uh, we would go, we never went on vacations, but we would have our summer conferences and we would have our conference at Dead Lake Geneva. And, um, every year we would go for a week and, um, see, see a different state, see the lake, those, uh, baptized in a Lake Geneva. It was, it was a fun time plus a time of learning and becoming deeper in your faith. AT: (01:32:14) Were there services in Japanese given those Issei? HK: (01:32:16) It was, the Japanese services were at two o' ; clock in the afternoon. The English service was at, um, 11 o' ; clock in the morning. Sunday school was a 9: 30 in the morning. So I' ; d be there Sunday school at 9: 30. And when I got older, uh, high school level, I taught Sunday school. And then for the church service, at first I would be just a parishioner. Then I became a choir director. And then I worked with the youth chorus, the teenagers, and we' ; d have a, we' ; d seen more upbeat instead of the usual Hams. And um, it was, it was a wonderful time for me. And I remember I was so active in the church. Most of my peers were working, you know, uh, some of them were able to go to college, but, um, I graduated when I, I married when I was 26 and which was, uh, five years, six years after I take my first job. So they always saw me working, you know, I had my job at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago. And when I said that I was going to get married, they threw this huge bridal shower for me. And I remember this lady coming up to me and she said, oh, I' ; m so happy for you Helen. We thought you were going to be our career girl, which is a politically correct way in those days. I' ; m saying, you know, we thought you were going to be an old maid, but I will always remember that cause it wasn' ; t till years later that I equated it with being an old maid, but I thought it was so nice. They do this huge bridal shower for me and I got married there. AT: (01:34:18) And where at, you said you were living in nearby. So where were you living? HK: (01:34:21) That was a 43 Wellington Avenue near Halsted and Wellington. Um. AT: (01:34:29) And, what year ... HK: (01:34:29) And right down the street from Ivan whole restaurant theater, you probably don' ; t remember that. Wellington and Broadway. AT: (01:34:38) Umm, and um, what year was that that your family moved there? HK: (01:34:41) Um, nine, let' ; s see 52. AT: (01:34:49) So this was when you were in high school then? HK: (01:34:51) I just graduated a grammar school. It was a, a January graduation, it was a winter graduation and so, uh, I moved immediately to start school on the north side. And this is another, I think a wonderful story of my life. I was so upset that I couldn' ; t go to Hyde Park with all my friends and I cried for two weeks and I went to my youth pastor and I said, I, I re, I' ; ll take a train, I' ; ll take the street car, whatever I want to go to school with my friends to Hyde Park. That was further south then Oaken wall [?]. And my pastor said, no you can' ; t because you' ; re out of a district. And I had heard that some kids were going to school high schools out of their district by borrowing a friend' ; s address. So I told my mother that and she says, absolutely not. You are not using and lying and using someone else' ; s address, this' ; ll be a good school for you. And that' ; s when I talked to my pastor and he said, Helen, this will be repiphany. I said, what' ; s that? He described it to me and he said, it' ; s going to change the whole course of your life, but it would be dependent on what choices you make, so make sure you make the right choices. And I had no choice. So I went immediately to the school and kids that were transferring in from a different, uh, district or together one of my good friends was Josie [inaudible]. Her parents were from a Syria and we got to be good friends. And um, very similar. She said, my parents, I think in behind their minds, they wanted me to marry a Japanese American, you know, fraternize with the Japanese Americans. And she was saying, yeah, my parents too. So she' ; s in similar to, um, the, um, Nisei athletic association that I belong to. She was in a, the Syrian type of organization. She says, yeah, and you know, my mom and she wants me to, if I' ; m dating anybody wants me to date on a Syrian [inaudible], I know exactly what you mean. But so here we were in a primarily white school [?] and so we kind of shared, uh, our backgrounds, although from different ethnicities. And interestingly, when we went to sign up for our curriculum, our, our, uh, classes freshman year, both of us will be friended by these very Caucasian kids. And I didn' ; t know until much later that these children that befriended us boys and girls were in Dr Brown' ; s division, which was like the home room. And when I talk about somebody that' ; s another person, they say, oh, she' ; s, she' ; s from Dr. Brown' ; s division. I thought, what' ; s so special about Dr. Brown' ; s division? Dr. Brown was a math professor in some college on east coast who was on a sabbatical or something that wanted to teach at the lower level. So he had the privilege of choosing from the feeder schools, the kids that could be in his division. So I' ; m assuming that they' ; re high achievers, if he could pick whoever he wanted from all the feeder schools. And so Josie and I, Josie and I will not from the feeder school, so we didn' ; t know what it meant, but these are the kids that came up to itself. Where [?] do you go signing up for? And I said, well, and the only role model I had was my sister who was now a medical secretary at the University of Illinois med center. And I said, well shorthand and typing and bookkeeping and home [?]. Well, aren' ; t you taking any college prep? And Josie was on the same page too. She was going to be a secretary, and signed the first college prep and I didn' ; t want to sound dumb. So I said, well, are you? And they said, yeah. I said, [inaudible], like what? So there' ; s, oh, Algebra, Biology, Latin. Oh and I looked at Josie, well we could do that, but the two of us were smart enough to hang onto a shorthand and typing [laughing sound] cause we didn' ; t know what we' ; re getting into. And we all became very good friends. But like a click with these kids and from doctor Brown' ; s division and I still in contact with them. They were definitely high achieving. They moved up the ranks of being leaders of this school. We followed because they were all friends. I would have never had the confidence really to go after things that I did, were it not for them paving the way. So I became very active in the school, which brought a lot of recognition, which brought a lot of opportunities and they went on to college and Josie went to secretarial school. I took a job at the, at graduated in January 56 which was a smaller class because it' ; s a winter graduation. And I, um, started work there and the Steno Pool. And when I applied for the job, they asked me, are you going to school? And I said, no, I don' ; t think so. And it was that year, January and June graduates were being offered scholarships if you were voted in as a citizen of the month. And I really didn' ; t quite know what that meant because I wasn' ; t really interested in it. But the month of January was outstanding high school, senior representing Chicago Land YMCAs, which meant that all the YMCAs in Chicago nominated probably a high school senior volunteer and they were interviewed or whatever and came up with one and that person was plastered on the front of the Tribune like, I can' ; t remember which paper and had the title of outstanding high school senior of the month and told them that they were representing YMCAs. Second month was something else, I think maybe Park districts. Third Month was parochial high school. Fourth Month was Chicago public high schools. And I vaguely remember going to an interview and I don' ; t even remember where I was working. And there were like 10 other students there. And we were interviewed by a panel of dignitaries, [inaudible] I didn' ; t even know what dignitaries, that was Jesse Owens. There was George Kilgaman, um, uh, cup, earth cups in it. Alfred J. Pick of the Pick Congress Hotel, the owner of the Pick Congress Hotel and a couple of others. Um, and I didn' ; t know who they were. I wasn' ; t into media at that time and they asked some questions and then I was anxious to get that to my job. And so in April, here comes a girl into the Steno pool and says, congratulations Helen. And I said, for what? What I do? And she said, didn' ; t you see the paper? And I said, no. She says, well, you won citizen of the year, of the month for Chicago public high schools, outstanding senior. I said, really? I said, well, I won a scholarship? I said, I can' ; t take it. She says, well, why not? I said, because when I took this job, they asked me, was I going to school? And I said No. So she must have told the boss of the Steno pool and the boss came and told me, I understand that you don' ; t feel you can take the scholarship. And I says, no, because I, I just said I wasn' ; t going to school. So she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, I have to have you meet someone. Come with me. Oh my gosh, what did I do? And so she took me to the executive offices of the Chicago, of the, the uh, People' ; s gas like a Coke company, which is on Michigan Avenue, you know, and introduces me to the vice president of people' ; s gas. Like Coke company, and she said, this young lady here won the scholarship for outstanding high school senior and is the outstanding senior ofthe month and she doesn' ; t feel she should take this scholarship because she said she wasn' ; t going to go to school. And he looks at me and chuckles and puts his arm around me, says, young lady, you have to take that scholarship. I said, I do? Why? AT: (01:44:59) Where did you end up going to school then? HK: (01:45:02) Um, I went to first year to the University of Illinois, uh, Navy pier, cause I didn' ; t know if I could go on from there. And he said you have to take the scholarship because I am on the [inaudible] chamber on the Board of the Illinois Chamber of Commerce that is sponsoring that scholarship. It' ; s [?] how would it look in front of my employees, is restricted from taking back. So you have to take it. So then it was a mad scramble, um, because this was April and school starts in September. I didn' ; t know the first thing. What was I going to major in? What was I going to do? And I knew if I did go to college, it would have to be at Navy Pier. It' ; s a state college. Two years I would live at home and I still could work. So my sister is the one that said, who was at the medical campus said, um, I asked her what, what, what, what would I take? You know, sure, well, you have all the prep, you can take anything you want, but I think you should think of what you want to do as well. I don' ; t know. I thought maybe secretary like you, you don' ; t need college for that. And she said, you don' ; t remember your autobiography, do you? When we were in grammar school in eighth grade, we had to write our autobiography. And um, the last chapter of the last page was what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I remember that. And she said, do you remember what you wrote? I said No. She said you want it to be either a baby doctor or a Hollywood makeup artist as I did [?]. And I thought about that and yes, I babysat a lot and I grew up around a lot of sick people and I thought it would be nice to be a baby doctor. I didn' ; t know what a pediatrician was. Never had one and I wanted it to be an artist. Most of the Japanese American kids were very good in art. We did all the stage, uh, background and everything. We' ; ve got an out of a lot of things because we worked okay, good in reading so we could do square dancing or painting or whatever and miss on reading class. And I said, oh yeah, I remember I talked to my brother when I told them I wanted to be a makeup artist cause that' ; s when I started watching movies and learn from some video that they showed a movie that how they make up the masks and make a person old, makes a person beautiful. AT: (01:47:51) So this is probably in Chicago they are watching movies. HK: (01:47:54) Yes. It was on the south side. I was going to grammar school and that' ; s what I recalled and that' ; s when I wrote my autobiography and that' ; s when we would go into Shakespeare theater with Amy and all my friends and see movies once in a while. And so I guess that' ; s what entered my mind because my brothers told me, you don' ; t want to go into art. It' ; s a very competitive field and never make any money. So that' ; s when I think I connected Hollywood makeup artist with art or maybe a baby doctor. I forgot all of that and my sister brought it up. And so she said, you know, um, I have a friend who was entering this brand new curriculum at the University of Illinois med center and it' ; s called occupational therapy heretofore all the veteran' ; s hospitals. We' ; re embracing the concept of rehabilitation for the wounded veterans. And they would just [inaudible] AT: (01:48:57) From which, which war would that have been? HK: (01:48:59) Probably Vietnam. uh, all the others I guess, it has been brewing, but no one ever put it together. But the veteran' ; s hospitals, because they were, uh, having to help the wounded but [?] doing a lot of them wouldn' ; t get, weren' ; t giving it a name like rehabilitation or physical therapy or vocational therapy. This was all coming for, um, probably with the wounded of, uh, Vietnam, which was a lot of young people and the veterans hospitals were establishing that and so the University of Illinois was saying, you know, we should start a curriculum and rehabilitation focus on occupational therapy because Northwestern is focusing on physical therapy and they didn' ; t want to duplicate anything. So in the Midwest to become an occupational therapist or a physical therapist, you [?] mostly came to Chicago because also the universities [inaudible] were offering it. And um, so she said, I have this girl, then she was Japanese American Gal. Um, I go, I mean, what was her name and she, I want you to shadow her. So I did, I shadowed her and whatever she did, it was combining medicine, creativity, uh, innovation. You have to use your imagination to help the disabled become more independent, I would ever means, which a lot depended on your imagination. And so AT: (01:50:38) So this was a nice combination of HK: (01:50:38) It was, and I said, immediacy. That' ; s what I want to do. So now I had a goal. So then I went to the director of the medical center of occupational therapy, Miss Beatrice Wade, and I said, I just shadowed one of your students and I think I would like to enter that curriculum. However, I understand you have to go downstate and I can' ; t afford that. I just got this scholarship. I can live at home, go to Navy Pier, and I could still work and augment the money that I' ; ll need to go downstate maybe next year. And she said, well, this is the first time I' ; m going to do this, but I' ; m going to make a concession for you. I will take some of the classes that you' ; re supposed to take downstate and substitute something close by in at the Navy Pier. So she went out of her way to do that for me. Meantime, ah, as I was finishing up, I received a scholarship from the Illinois League of Women' ; s Voters, don' ; t know where they got my name, how they knew about me, and then even know what they did. Sounded very impressive. And um, at the same time, my sisters went to a different [inaudible] Christian Church, uh, with, which had a lot of young people her age in their, uh, in their membership. And she had a friend who was a manager or something at the Clark Linen and Supply Company on Russel Street. So she said, I can get you a job as a clerk typist over there after school. So when you finish school you go take the bus straight down to Russel street and work at the Clark Linen Supply Company. That' ; s what I did. AT: (01:52:35) I do want to just let you know we are approaching time a little bit. HK: (01:52:40) Okay. AT: (01:52:41) So we' ; ll have just time for a little bit more. HK: (01:52:44) Okay. Um, is there anything else, oh I, I, I can go through my, my profession AT: (01:52:51) Umm, well HK: (01:52:51) Or if you want something more. AT: (01:52:53) Yeah, I think, um, to wrap up, uh, one thing I like to ask folks before kind of completing [inaudible], uh, if you could leave some kind of message or, or leave some kind of legacy for your children, grandchildren or future generations more generally, what' ; s something that you had? HK: (01:53:14) Well, I think what resonates with me is what my parents handed down to me. Um, in this day of entitlement that you have to, uh, make your own way. You can' ; t be dependent on other people. The more effort and time you put into making our own decisions and doing what you want to do, struggling if you have to in the end, it will benefit you far greater than having your way paved for you. I was able to get through with the help of many people. I don' ; t know why, but I think. When you have these, um, goals they see in you and it, this is what a lot of my friends had said to me that, um, they see this, um, ambition, this diligence in you. You don' ; t know that you' ; re showing it, but that' ; s what encourages them to give you opportunities. I have had numerous opportunities throughout my education. I would' ; ve never been able to finish six years of school and go into the profession I did where there was also a lot of opportunities. And I' ; m thinking, why me? Why so many opportunities and blessings and many people ask, how did that camp experience and [inaudible] people impact you? I said, well, one thing I know it did not impact me negatively from the outside looking in. Many people could say it was a lot of [?] deprivation. Um, you, you certainly didn' ; t have a lot of other your friends might have had, you know, your Caucasian friends. I had the emotional support of my Japanese American friends who went through similar trials and made wonderful lives for themselves, but it comes down to who you are inside. And to rely on yourself, not rely on the outside world and other people you can do it. And if, if we can instill that in these children today in this society that is all about entitlements, about giving or receiving, I should say it' ; s going to be hard. I look back on the fact that my mother said, if you are naughty, they will blame you. They won' ; t blame me. If we can instill that in our children to take responsibility for their own actions, not that mom' ; s going to bail you out. Not that, that Dad' ; s going to do this for you, that you are responsible for yourself as best you can and make them proud and make yourself proud. I just can' ; t stress that enough in the environment that our world is going in now, especially in the United States. And I live amongst a lot of people here who are self made. And that' ; s another thing we share. A lot of people here have done great things in their lives, but they came from, um, difficult backgrounds and they are Holocaust survivors. And that' ; s the common thread. And we all get along. We respect one another and we don' ; t see the differences in ethnicity. We see the person and it' ; s, it' ; s so similar, they have the same values. Um, I think that' ; s what makes my life going forward. Uh, still a journey and not sitting here thinking of all the stuff that happened to me before, what I' ; ve done before, but there' ; s still things that you can do with what you' ; ve got into. Now it may be on the form of contributing, giving back to society, giving back to these people that have helped you all along the way. AT: (01:57:39) You, so, you' ; ve mentioned the opportunities that were kind of, presented to you, uh, throughout your life. And I' ; m just curious before we wrap up, um, how, how you see, your move to Chicago and to somewhere, you know, kind of that you probably wouldn' ; t have come if it weren' ; t for the war and the incarceration experience, HK: (01:58:04) What Chicago gave me as opposed to any place else, you mean? AT: (01:58:07) Or, or just, what, what, what has that move, like how has that impacted your life HK: (01:58:13) Or this, AT: (01:58:13) Or how do you think your life might be different if you never came to Chicago? HK: (01:58:17) I, I can' ; t even think of it being any different. I do know that when, um, I grew up and have relationships and the staff is socialization with other Japanese Americans that were slightly older than I, not a whole lot. I was surprised that they never went into camps. They were not on the west coast there, um, immigrant parents immigrated to Chicago or to the east coast and they were so happy and surprised when all these Japanese Americans came to Chicago. They, they were the minority amongst many ethnicities, um, here in Chicago. And it never don' ; t [inaudible] me. But I thought I had, I had the best of both worlds. I mean, I had the support of my Japanese American friends. I was in their organizations. We were in the girls' ; clubs. I met Japanese American fellows. At the same time, I also made the transition into the, uh, all the Caucasian society. Um, I just think that it, I just had a, a very blessed life, always considered and um, I don' ; t see any negativity. And I think it also comes from the fact that a lot of the friends have told me that you say everything came to you. You had these opportunities in college after college, et Cetera. But I think people saw that you had a standard that whatever you did, you' ; re going to put your best effort forward. And, um, you went after the opportunities. There were many opportunities that people probably would have never even looked at. But if you' ; re hungry, that' ; s what you' ; re going to do. But then they said, well, there are some people that' ; ll just sit back and say, well, I' ; m not doing that, you know, and I was ready to, um, scrub floors if I had to. But I think it' ; s, it' ; s what you want to do. You have to have enough confidence in yourself, which I think the camps gave me. I was, had the run of the place, you know, no one was looking after you, but you had to accept the responsibility for behaving. And so a lot of other people that were, um, doing the best that they can, it forced you to do the best you can. I, I just really don' ; t see any negative portion of it. The only sadness I have is the trauma. It was to my parents. To my sister was a teenager because I remember when I felt like, as a teenager, you want to fit in with certain people. You want to look a certain way. You know, she didn' ; t have that. And I remember her complaining all the time, look at this, what they sent [inaudible], I can' ; t wear this. But she had to, I was young enough. My feet are bad because they always sent me shoes that were too narrow. So to this day I have that problem. I problem with my eyes because the doctor when we came out said, did you live at, I live on a beach front? And my sister said, who took me to the ophthalmologist, no, did you live on a desert? And she said yes. And he was surprised. It was a young ophthalmologist. And so she, he said, she said, well why are you asking where we lived? And she said, your young little sister here has a lot of scarring in her eye and that usually from wind or Sandberg and sure as a young child you get the sand storms come in and you' ; re doing this, right? So I have the effects of it now I' ; m paying for it. But when I think of the whole of my life, I think it was just a real bless of life. And if I leave tomorrow, I' ; d be happy [inaudible]. Three children, happily married. Hopefully the diversity in my family will be what the world will be one day. And all my grandchildren, they all get along. So what' ; s to be unhappy about, you know, and then my husband and I' ; ve done well enough and he would, he had to go through college and get his Undergrad in 13 years. So he' ; s the other side that didn' ; t have these opportunity. He was taking care of his mother. And so when he was finishing up his schooling, I was, I was working and consequently didn' ; t have children until later until he finished school and can get his career on the road. So it' ; s just been a blessed life and I can' ; t imagine it any other way. I don' ; t have any bad feelings about not going back to California. I would have probably been a farmer' ; s girl. Right? So it' ; s been a good life. I' ; m really happy that everything happened as it did and, um, so many good people out there gave me opportunities, and it' ; s still a blessing to move forward. AT: (02:03:52) Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, um. HK: (02:03:56) Anytime. AT: (02:03:57) Really appreciate it. 2 Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KimuraHelen20180419.xml KimuraHelen20180419.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Hikido
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Kimura, Helen (4/19/2018)
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2018-04-19
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Series: Untold Stories
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
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Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/4/2017 Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya (11/4/2017) 0:45:31 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/302173908 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/302173908?h=032d772525" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 To start, can you just state your full name? Fumino Knox: 00:03 Okay. My full name is, uh, Fumino Tsuchiya-Knox. AT: 00:08 And where and when were you born? FK: 00:10 I was born in Manzanar, in the camp. Um, February 20th, 1945. February 26th, 1945. Excuse me. AT: 00:20 And um, so like I mentioned, we' ; re, we' ; re interested in hearing about what happened with people' ; s families during the war. So can you explain, uh, where your parents are from? How they ended up there? FK: 00:35 Yeah, well, my, um, my father is a first generation Japanese American. He came to this country in very late 1915. Um, originally to the West Coast. And then he lived in Chicago, uh, for a number of years before the war. My mother, uh, was born in Sacramento. She was a second generation. Um, and her parents were both from Japan. Uh, she was, she grew up in Los Angeles. And, uh, in 1936, my father' ; s uncle arranged their marriage. He knew some people in Los Angeles and he thought my father should get married. And so he arranged for my father to meet my mother in Los Angeles. And after that, they moved to Chicago and they lived in Chicago in the 30s, prior to, uh, the war. In 1940, they moved, they were going to go back to Japan and Manchuria actually, but, um, they came through Los Angeles to see my mother' ; s mother and say goodbye. And the Japanese community in Los Angeles was so concerned about possibility of war that they said, wait until tensions have calmed down. Don' ; t go now or you might not be able to come back. So they were in Los Angeles, uh, when the war broke out. Um, and then they were sent to Manzanar. AT: 02:15 What did your parents or your father do? FK: 02:19 My father was the curator of a private museum in Chicago of the Harding Museum, which uh, housed European arms and armor. It' ; s in the Chicago Art Institute now. Um, my mother was a housewife basically. AT: 02:38 And um, so he, he came to the U.S. in? FK: 02:44 In 1915 and then he came to Chicago in the early twenties. AT: 02:50 Early twenties. FK: 02:50 And he worked at this museum from around mid-twenties until 1940. AT: 02:57 Was he involved in similar work in Japan? FK: 03:00 No, he came when he was 16, so. He came because his father had come to America in 1906 when my dad was only six years old. And um, in 1915 or 16' ; , um, his, my father' ; s mother wanted him to come to America to get his father and bring his father home and he did, you know, meet his father and the father went home. But my father stayed here. AT: 03:32 Um that' ; s quite a story. FK: 03:39 Yeah. AT: 03:40 One that you don' ; t hear often. Um, so FK: 03:47 Yeah, actually. I mean, part of the reason I think that my father' ; s father came to America was in Japan. There is a custom for, um, families to have a, if they don' ; t have any male children, to have a man, uh, take on the family name and essentially marry into the family. So my father' ; s mother' ; s family had not had any male children for like five generations and had, had men married into the family all that time. So my father' ; s father married into my father' ; s mother' ; s family. And usually those kinds of arrangements, they weren' ; t very happy ones. Um, the men were not respected that much, I think. And so I think that was part of the reason why his dad had come to America. Yeah. AT: 04:43 And then can you tell me a little bit more about, um, so after they had stopped, what they thought was just stopping through L.A. FK: 04:55 Right. FK: 04:55 Did they, how long were they there? FK: 04:59 They were in L.A. for about a year and a half or so. Um, they actually started a nursery in Culver City and we' ; re running that when the war broke out. AT: 05:12 And were they staying with your mom' ; s mom? FK: 05:14 No, they were living on their own. AT: 05:17 Yeah. FK: 05:19 And then my older sister had been born in Chicago and she was about six months old when they moved, you know, when they came up to Los Angeles. AT: 05:28 Was she the only child at the time of the war? FK: 05:31 Yeah. AT: 05:33 Um, and then can you tell me about, uh, what happened when the Evacuation Orders went out? Where they were sent? FK: 05:40 Well, um, they were, they decided to volunteer to go early to camp, so they weren' ; t sent to, uh, one of the, um, temporary detention centers. They just went straight to Manzanar and I believe they got there about March of, uh, 42' ; . May? LourdesNicholls: 06:05 April 8th. FK: 06:06 Okay, April 8th of 42' ; . AT: 06:12 And, um. FK: 06:14 And my grandmother, my mother' ; s mother, you know, had been living in Los Angeles all this time. And um, she came to live with my parents in the camp. Yeah. So that they would be together. AT: 06:31 So does that mean they were a family unit of? FK: 06:36 Right. AT: 06:37 That would be for including your sister. FK: 06:39 Including my sister, yeah. AT: 06:40 And what do you, what do you know about their early experiences in Manzanar? FK: 06:48 You know, I, um, my mother used to talk about it. My father didn' ; t so much, but um, you know, she did talk about having to make the mattresses with the straw. She talked about how terrible the food was and how they had to use yellow dye to dye the lard or whatever it was to substitute for, um, butter. And that everyone wanted rice and there wasn' ; t any, you know, rice for dinner and that type of thing. And the dust, the dust everywhere. That was really hard I think. AT: 07:29 And then, um, you were born in 45' ; ? FK: 07:33 Right Just six months or so before we left. So I really don' ; t have any memories of camp. AT: 07:41 Do you know, and do you have any information about kind of the, the conditions, um, at the time of your birth or you know, hearing stories from your parents? FK: 07:50 Well, it was interesting. Um, my father had been going out to find the job, uh, you know, starting from I guess 44' ; or so. Uh, my mother had gone with him at least once, I believe, to Chicago, possibly to New York also. Um, but then she came back and he, um, was working I think in Seabrook at the farms in New Jersey, or um, at the time I was born. Um, so I' ; ve always sort of theorized that my mother probably got pregnant when they were off on one of the trips since they had to live together with my grandmother in the barracks at camp. So anyway, um, I just, you know, no, I was born in the hospital there, but I really hadn' ; t heard in much else about that. AT: 08:50 And then, um, do you know what the process was like for them leaving camp? FK: 08:57 Well, again, my father looked quite a, you know, in quite a number of places and he, um, spoke both Japanese and he was quite fluent in English. He, which he learned on his own, so he had I think, looked for jobs, um, translating or teaching, uh, Japanese. And he found a job, um, in Stillwater, Oklahoma at the university. Uh, there they had a program, uh, by the Navy, um, for teaching Navy officers, Japanese. And, uh, we found a postcard that he sent from there telling my mother to pack up her bags and get a ticket for everyone to go to Stillwater. Um, and so they moved there and they were there for about, um, let' ; s see, from 45' ; to 47' ; . And then he got a job with the U.S. Army to translate for the war crimes trials in Japan. And so, um, he went to Japan. Uh, my mother, grandmother and sister and I went to a housing project in Richmond, California, which was originally built for all the African Americans that moved up from the South to build shifts during the war. But after the war, a number of Japanese who had been in the camps were sent there for their first housing. And so we lived there for a year. And then in 48' ; , um, my mother and grandmother and sister and I, um, all went on a boat to Japan to be with my father. And then we lived in Army officers' ; housing, um, in the middle of Tokyo, which was, it was kind of interesting. It was called Jefferson Heights and it was almost like a suburb. There were, um, two story houses. Uh, I mean it was pretty luxurious to me after living in a housing project in Richmond. And so we lived there for a year. AT: 11:26 And where are your first memories? FK: 11:29 My first memories are from Richmond, California, yeah. AT: 11:32 Like what do you remember about it? FK: 11:35 Oh, it was, um, well, I remember I was sitting in a high chair and wanting some mush for breakfast. But, um, it was, I mean, I remember the building, it was like a fourplex. Um, right from the train tracks on the other side of the train tracks. There were, um, greenhouses where the Japanese Americans used to grow flowers for the market in San Francisco. And, um, I just remember there was no bathtub in the apartment, there was only a shower. And so my mother and grandmother used to fill this huge tub with water to give us our baths. Um, my sister went to school there. She was five years older than I was. Um, but I wasn' ; t yet of school age, you know. So I started school actually in the Army officers' ; nursery school for their kids in Japan. And my mother says that was when I first really started speaking English for the first time, that I had been speaking Japanese until then. AT: 12:53 Interesting. And so you were there for a year and FK: 13:00 For a year. AT: 13:00 Was it in Tokyo? FK: 13:03 It was right in Tokyo. We used to be able to see a general MacArthur going to the Diet building. Yeah. And I remember going around the, um, Imperial Palace with my grandmother and seeing the koi in the moat around the palace. Yeah. AT: 13:23 And so who are you in that, those your first schooling? So who were you in class with? FK: 13:29 Well, again it was with, uh, Army officers children, so was mainly Caucasians, I guess it was nursery school and I wasn' ; t there very long, I think it was maybe, um, three or four months or so. The fall semester, um, in 1949. And then we came home to, I mean we came back to Los Angeles. AT: 13:57 Um, and um, the move back to Los Angeles. Can you tell me a little about what, why you all moved in? And how long you stayed there? FK: 14:07 Well, I guess the, uh, they didn' ; t need my dad anymore with the war crimes trials. I guess they were starting to wind up. So we came back to Los Angeles. I remember we lived for a couple of months in a little apartment and then we found a house to rent in Boyle Heights, which was the neighborhood that the Japanese used to live in before the war. And there were still a number of Japanese there, but by that time it was mainly a Mexican American. And um, yeah, I started grammar school there, you know. AT: 14:50 And how long were there in L.A.? FK: 14:53 Um, I was in L.A. until, uh, gosh, after college, after I got married and AT: 15:00 So you, that' ; s kind of where your family settled? FK: 15:05 Mhm. My dad had a hard time finding work. Um, I think he worked for a couple of weeks selling vacuum cleaners door to door. I mean, he was totally not cut out for that. Um, and then he became a gardener, which was what, you know, a lot of Japanese men were doing. Um, and he did that for about four years, four or five years I guess. And then he was able to start a nursery, uh, out in Compton. And, um, he did that for another five years or so. And then when he was 60, he bought a picture framing business and he started on that and worked on that for 20 years after that. AT: 15:59 And can you tell me about kind of, I guess, you know, you growing up in Boyle Heights, um, did uh, were you aware of your, your family' ; s, experiences during the war and internment? FK: 16:19 I was, it was really interesting. Um, my mother was a lot more open about it. You know, my dad was very bitter about it and really kind of broken by the whole experience because of the fact that he couldn' ; t get a good job afterwards. Um, but my mother, I think for her it was nice because she was with the community from Los Angeles that she had grown up with. So she had a lot of girlfriends that, you know, were also sent to Manzanar. Um, and, but one thing was really interesting before I started kindergarten, I remember she told me very specifically, she said, if they ever ask you where you were born, you should say, Manzanar War Relocation Center, Owens Valley, California. And a, it just always struck me. I' ; m sorry. Anyway, I think she just wanted to say, you know, there' ; s nothing to be ashamed of. Sorry. AT: 17:46 No, no. You can let me know if you want me to stop filming. FK: 17:57 No it' ; s okay, it' ; s funny, I' ; ve never really cried about this before. But it was a powerful seeing the exhibit here. AT: 18:10 And is that something that, did you take her advice? Did you FK: 18:14 I did. I always, yeah. Um, yeah, that was kind of strange. Um, you know, I did talk with her about it and she said that, uh, all the Japanese had to go there. Um, you know, but somehow we were not there anymore and that, I just remember it was around the same time when, um, there was talk about how Russia was such an enemy of the United States. And I mean, I must' ; ve been older than kindergarten, but I was still very young and in grammar school. And I remember talking to her about that because I said, I thought the Germans were our enemies in World War II. And she said, yes, but now the Russians are enemies. And the whole thing about the camp kind of struck me the same way that it was something that, you know, it was one way then and now it' ; s different now. Um, so anyways, kind of interesting. Uh, when I got started school in Los Angeles, um, there was still a lot of prejudice, you know, um, I don' ; t think I experienced it really badly, but I know some of the kids in the school, their parents had been in the military and all and um, they would be wearing like Army jackets or that type of thing, you know, or those jackets from Japan at that time that had all this embroidery on it and were very flashy that, you know, their fathers had gotten them when they were in the military there. Um, and then I remember my sixth grade teacher, so this would have been in about 1955 or so, um, were talking about the camps and you know, he was a wonderful teacher, we all loved him, but he said, well, you know, that the Japanese were sent there for their own good. That, um, the government was protecting them by sending them to the camps. And, you know, I just, uh, have always been struck by that, because I didn' ; t think that was the case then, but I certainly wasn' ; t going to say that to him. AT: 20:53 Um, were there other, um, were you around other Japanese Americans who have been incarcerated? FK: 21:03 Uh, yes, we were. And in fact, another boy, um, in my class was also born at Manzanar. And we were friends with his family and yeah, every one who was Japanese American that we knew had been in camp. Yeah. AT: 21:23 And in that class specifically were you, were there, other Japanese Americans? FK: 21:26 There were a few, um, but you know, Boyle Heights, uh, you know, it had been, um, a place where a lot of Japanese Americans lived before the war. But like I was saying, by the time we were there, it was mainly, um, Mexican American. So there were just maybe four or five of us in the class, but there were others, you know, it wasn' ; t like I was the only one. And then it was interesting from Boyle Heights, which was not that great a neighborhood. Um, when I was starting junior high, my parents moved to Gardena, which is a suburb of Los Angeles. Um, I remember my mother asking the realtor if Japanese were allowed to buy homes in Gardena. And the man said, Oh yes, no, we don' ; t like Negroes, but Japanese are welcome, very welcome here. And uh, that community in fact was heavily Japanese. The high school was about a third Japanese, um, kids in the school. So it was, it was a very different experience from Boyle Heights, which was very poor. Um, and uh, mainly like gardeners and you know, that type of thing. And whereas Gardena was more a lower middle class suburb, everyone had homes and very neat. AT: 23:04 Umm. I' ; m still thinking about, um, what your sixth grade teacher said. FK: 23:12 Oh yeah. AT: 23:16 I know you said that you didn' ; t, you know, say anything, but what was, what, what was, do you remember what was going on through your mind, when he said that? FK: 23:26 Well, I was thinking a little bit that, that I hadn' ; t thought before what it would have been like if we had stayed and that, yeah. In fact, it might' ; ve been kind of dangerous, you know, so that was part of it. But the other part was that I knew it was wrong that they did that and that was what he wasn' ; t acknowledging with what he said, you know, so it just, it was hurtful. It was very hurtful. Yeah. AT: 24:01 And did you, as you were growing up, um, well, and I' ; m sorry, right. At what point did your family move to Gardena? FK: 24:09 Ah, that would have been about 1956 that we moved to Gardena. AT: 24:14 And then, um, let' ; s see. You were probably middle school age? FK: 24:20 Yeah. Mhm. Seventh grade. Yeah. AT: 24:22 And then how long has your family there? FK: 24:25 Um, my parents were there until they passed away in the early nineties. Yeah. And I was there, uh, through high school. I graduated in 1962. Um, I went to Occidental College in Los Angeles. And that' ; s where I met my husband and we, he was from Berkeley, so we moved up to Berkeley then. AT: 24:53 Um FK: 24:57 Oh, I, I guess I should tell you about growing up too, that, um, there was sort of, this schizophrenic push to, you know, from my parents, to both be all American as well as to retain the Japanese traditions. So I did go to Japanese school every day after school. Yeah. All through grammar school and then on Saturday' ; s all through junior high and halfway through high school, um, to learn Japanese. Um, but then at the same time, you know, they just, they really wanted me to excel in school. Um, but then for example, when I was going to go to college, um, I had taken a tour and decided I really liked Occidental College and that was where I wanted to go. My mother kept trying to, um, make me decide to go to UCLA. And the main reason was she said there were a lot of Japanese kids there and she, I think she always thought, um, I would be safer and treated well if I were in some place where there are a lot of Japanese. So, like even after I started working, every job I had, she would ask how many Japanese work there, you know, are they nice to you and that type of thing. AT: 26:24 Uh, I' ; m, I' ; m curious to hear what your thoughts are on, um, what you think some of the big impacts and legacies of the camp have been on you? And it' ; s, you know, it' ; s, it' ; s unique in that you were born in camp, you don' ; t have any memories, so, um, whatever you do know or feel is probably passed down. FK: 26:51 From my parents AT: 26:52 From your parents. yet at the same time you were there. FK: 26:56 Yes. AT: 26:57 So I' ; m wondering if you could, um, just think about and tell me about what you think has been kind of passed down and then maybe what you' ; ve experienced, you know, internally, yourself? FK: 27:10 Right, right. Um, well, like I said, my father was very, very bitter about the experience and I think it was so humiliating for him. Um, he had been the curator of this museum that had this wonderful European arms and armor before the war. And then in the camp, he, they actually asked him to start a museum there. What for, you know, they didn' ; t have a collection of anything, obviously. So he started a museum that just had, um, things from around the land where the camp was, uh, the geography of the land and then items that the internees made that they could display. Uh, and then they try to get photographs of the outside world because it was also trying to teach the children what it was like outside. But it was like such a poor, um, comparison to what he had been used to doing. Um, that, you know, like I say, it was very humiliated by it. Um, and I think he was depressed basically the rest of his life because he didn' ; t talk about it. He, you know, was angered really easily and, oh, I' ; m sure it was hard. He was already older as a parent, you know, my, he was 36 or 40, rather, he was 40 when my sister was born. He was 45 when I was born. Um, and I' ; m sure it must' ; ve been really difficult to think that he had to raise these children still and now, you know, uh, after the Japan, uh, war crimes trials, it was really hard to find a job. So that just always made me so sorry for him. Um, you know, like I say for my mother, I think it was easier. And then she also got my grandmother living with us, a mixed blessing, I' ; m sure. But my grandmother basically raised my sister and me. My mother worked, um, after that, uh, she started actually to work for this chain of yarn stores and she became a manager of the warehouse that she used to manage about 20 or more people. Um, so for her, the fact that my dad wasn' ; t able to provide, now she sort of came into her own after the war. Um, so that sort of also, you know, it was that dichotomy of how they came out of it differently and how they viewed that experience differently. That I think gave me mixed emotions about it. Um, but I think I always, until the late sixties, when the, um, ethnic identity movements started, I had always been rather ashamed of the whole thing because, you know, no one talked about it. It wasn' ; t in the history books. Um, so it always seemed to me it was shameful. Um, I didn' ; t like to feel associated with the Japanese or with Japan, certainly. Um, and in like 1970, we lived in Berkeley then and I went to a lecture at Cal by a Japanese American professor who talked about the camps and it was just such a moving experience to hear that, you know, in an auditorium where there were people around really something. Um, but it' ; s, I think on the whole until, uh, my parents passed away and then my second husband passed away at the same time, um, in the early nineties, I really was kind of trying to run away from the whole Japanese culture and Japanese American culture become really white. And I think it was only when they had all passed away that I was on my own and, uh, really felt a longing for everything I had lost and really tried to kind of go back and get closer to my roots. And, uh, you know, like I' ; ve joined this, uh, group in the Bay Area of Sansei, third generation Japanese Americans, which is really good. It started as a support group around the time of the, uh, Redress Movement and where people were, um, most of those people in the Sansei group with me, their parents hadn' ; t talked about the Camps at all and they just learned about it for the first time, uh, with the Redress Movement. So they were also in their own way trying to find their roots again. And so it' ; s been a real good group and we still meet once a month and, uh, it' ; s really, it' ; s really good. Um. AT: 32:54 Before, um, um, coming back to your roots and seeking out, um, you know, groups like this Sansei group, did you ever speak about it with peers at all, or your sister, or how did that come up in conversation? FK: 33:13 Yeah, I did. And, um, you know, people were usually so surprised to hear about it. Everyone, you know, have friends, non-Japanese friends, they just, they' ; d never heard about it and uh, they were really astonished. But they also, I don' ; t think knew the whole scope of it for a long time because it' ; s only in the last 20 years say that the knowledge has become more widespread about what it was like. Um, my sister and I would talk about it but she was, um, like two to five when she was in the camp and she had basically very good memories about it, you know, as a child and she went to nursery school and kindergarten and everything. So for her it was a real positive experience. AT: 34:18 Um, one thing I wanted to ask was, uh, so you' ; ve described your experiences for your parents after camp. Did they ever consider moving back to Chicago or um out of California? FK: 34:37 Yeah, it was, well, like I said, during the war, when my dad went to look for work, he did look in Chicago and um, I' ; m not exactly sure why they didn' ; t try it again after being in Japan. But it may just be because my mother had more connections with the community in Los Angeles. Uh, my mother' ; s sister lived in Los Angeles too, so I think maybe my grandmother wanted to be close to her. Yeah. AT: 35:13 And do you know, um, one of the things that we have been interested in, um, throughout this project is kind of hearing about Chicago. So I' ; m just wondering if you happen to know anything, more about, um, your dad' ; s time and experiences here, or was he involved in any kind of Japanese American community or what was that like for him? FK: 35:41 No, I don' ; t think there was any at that time, at least that he knew of. Um, he had one Japanese friend who was, uh, from Japan, uh, who, who had come here on a, um, like a business, his business had sent him here. He had worked for a textile factory and in Japan. And the company sent him here to learn more about textile production in America. And he essentially didn' ; t go back and just stayed, um, and was a cook in like wealthy families households. And that was his only friend here. Um, they, I know my parents and this friend, uh, did try opening a restaurant, a Japanese restaurant before the war, and we have some photos of them when they opened it. But apparently very soon after they opened it, there was some type of diplomatic affair between the U.S. and Japan and business just really dropped off and they could never make a go of it. So they had to close it. Yeah. AT: 37:02 Do you have any idea or sense of what part of the city he was in? FK: 37:06 He was in, um, close to Hyde Park or actually in Hyde Park? Um, yeah. And we do know the address they lived at and like the 5400 block of Dorchester. AT: 37:25 Um, so we can be wrapping up, but I have a few more questions. Um, so we' ; ve, we' ; ve talked a little bit about, um, kind of how the stories have been passed down or not. Um, and I' ; m wondering when you started to have children, what were your, um, what were your views or your thoughts about sharing um, your family' ; s story with your kids? FK: 37:53 Yeah, well, I definitely did share the family story and, um, you know, that' ; s why I think my daughter Lourdes is so interested in it. Um, but you know, at that time, and I really feel kind of badly about it, but I was still in the mode of not really accepting my Japanese heritage. So I, I wasn' ; t speaking Japanese and I didn' ; t make a big point about their learning of that Japanese culture. I know Lourdes wanted to learn Japanese. And I did take, uh, she and her sister to Japanese school for awhile on Saturdays at the Buddhist church in Oakland. Um, but it was, it was just too difficult because I wasn' ; t speaking at home. Um, so, you know, they gave it up after awhile. Um, and it' ; s so interesting. Uh, her daughter, Mari now, uh, started learning Japanese at this Montessori school that she went to after school while she was in grammar school cause the woman was from Japan who ran the school and taught Japanese there. And so in high school, Mari, um, took Japanese as a class and then the whole Japanese class went to Japan for a exchange program. And, um, Mari just loves it. And the first time she went to Japan and she came back, I met her at the airport and I remember she said. I' ; m gonna cry again too. She said, grandma, I' ; m so proud that I' ; m Japanese. And that was just the most, um, moving thing I had ever experienced because I could never say that. Yeah. It was really wonderful. Yeah. And uh, I mean, she' ; s blonde haired and it' ; s gray eyes, but she' ; s speaking Japanese, she' ; s majoring in Japanese and she' ; s going to go to Japan to study and she wants to live there. She says, I don' ; t know. She' ; ll follow through on that. But, um, so anyway, she has gotten me re interested in Japanese and I started taking Japanese again, um, this year and it' ; s been really great because it' ; s all coming back. Um, yeah. So it' ; s, it' ; s great. AT: 40:42 One thing I like to ask folks, um, is if you can, if you could pass down any kind of legacy year or message to your, your grandchildren, to your children and your grandchildren, what, what would you want to leave them with? FK: 41:06 Well, I certainly want them to remember the history of what happened and um, you know, really make sure it doesn' ; t happen again. Yeah. And you know, and to be proud of their heritage. I think that' ; s, that' ; s really important and I really feel sad that, you know, it took me so much time to get to that point, that I could feel that way. AT: 41:45 Thank you so much for the time to speak with me. FK: 41:49 Oh well, thanks so much. AT: 41:51 Is there anything, anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? FK: 41:56 No, I, well I was going to say one thing about my mother' ; s family in uh, in the little Tokyo before the war, which was kind of interesting. Um, her father ran a gull parlor in their living room. That was how he mainly made his living. Um, but it was an interesting time in the 19 teens and twenties in little Tokyo. Um, there' ; s a lot there to my, my mother and her sister were in a number of movies of Japanese movies made at that time down there and um, you know, that that whole community that existed at that time was really wonderful, really close. And something, another piece of history to really remember. Yeah, yeah. AT: 42:47 I actually did remember one thing that I wanted to be sure to ask about. Um, so as you know Lourdes, um, has done presentations about, um, some of your family' ; s experiences and I know she' ; s covered particularly about your father' ; s museum in camp. Um, I' ; m just wondering if, how, how did your family compile all of this information? Cause it' ; s, um FK: 43:22 You know, my mother just saved everything. Um, I have about, gosh, maybe 10 big cartons of plastic cartons at home filled with photographs. We have photographs from the 1890s in Japan to, you know, through the whole time period in Los Angeles of my mother growing up. And uh, so she saved all these documents from camp and from the museum. She had photo albums that my dad was a photographer, you know, hobby, his hobby was photography. And so he had taken a lot of photographs of the museum too, in Chicago. So we had all that. So it was oh, um, you know, I guess that was something else I didn' ; t mention was all of that for me growing up was also such a contrast to the camp experience that it was always almost surreal that my parents had these lives before the war that were so, um, I don' ; t know exactly what to call it, kind of rooted in either the community in Los Angeles or like rooted in that profession that my dad had. Uh, and then it was all lost and it was almost like we were just starting from scratch after the war without any history, you know. But I would say these things in the albums and, um, putting that together with our present circumstances was really, really something that' ; s difficult to do for me. Yeah. AT: 45:22 Well, if you don' ; t have anything else to add, um, thank you so much again for your time. FK: 45:28 Oh, well thank you so much. 2 Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KnoxFumi20171104.xml KnoxFumi20171104.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya (11/4/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Takada, Anna
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Kobayashi, Ryoko
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5.4 11/16/2017 Kobayashi, Ryoko (11/16/2017) 1:07:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kobayashi, Ryoko Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/298255330 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/298255330?h=01ecc2515a" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you state your full name? Ryoko Kobayashi: Ryoko Kobayashi. AT: And where and when were you born? RK: I was born in Seattle, Washington. September 20, 1926. AT: 00:00:15 And, what did your parents do for a living? RK: Well, in Seattle? Well, my mother was a housewife and my father, he worked for the farmer' ; s market. He had a little booth with apples or whatever he had to sell those days. It was a great depression. AT: Did he farm the produce or just sell it? RK: He sold uh, just what he had like [?] apple, oranges and then trying to make a living that way. AT: And did you grow up with any siblings? RK: I have two brothers, one older and one younger than me. AT: And, can you tell me a little bit about, what it was like growing up in Seattle? What kind of city it was at the time RK: It was a, it was very depressing because the great depression and, we lived in a house where cold water flat, like, you know, no water, hot water. So my mother had to boil water for everything, cooking, bathing, and uh, a very depressing. And if I got a 3 cents for allowance to go to school, I was lucky. Yeah. It was real bad in those days. So I never want to go back to Seattle. That' ; s a memory within, I don' ; t wish to retain it, you know. I feel sor, no, I, we feel real bad for my folks because they had to live that way and they couldn' ; t afford to give their children too much of a good thing, like now children get everything they want. But now in my days, I was lucky if I had a Christmas tree or like my mother' ; s friend come over and she, they want to talk. Woman talk was, she gave me a dime to say, you know, get lost, go, go to the candy store or something. But that' ; s how life was. And I was as a child, I had epilepsy, so it wasn' ; t on top of that depression and epilepsy and, I was a very sickly child. So my, my mother had an extra work taking care of me and the boys were okay. You know. And, so that' ; s why that' ; s my opinion on Seattle. AT: Mmm. Growing up there. So you, did you go to school? RK: Yes, I went to the Western school and the Japanese language school. So right after the western schools open over, I have to take, oh, I have to walk about a mile to go to the Japanese language school. Now, think about one, one or two hours. Then I came home, but had the western book in one hand and the, my mother made a bag [unclear] for the Japanese of school book. So it was, I had to carry a lot of learning, you know, but good. AT: Was there a, a big Japanese American population of Seattle at that time? RK: Yes. Yes. Good. The Japanese school was just filled with the children, you know, it varied. It was discipline. So when we had freedom in the western school, we go to Japanese school, we were like a stick man where you just walk in and teacher come by. We bow low, we have to show respect, we' ; ll be going into the classroom, we have to sit and if the teacher call, you have to stand and bow to the teacher then, re before you read the book of what the teacher told to read, you have to bow and chat. I' ; m going to read so and so then after that' ; s over, I bow again, then I sit down. So it was very disciplined and, so that' ; s how I was raised, they' ; re not come home and I speak Japanese. Because my father could speak English but my mother couldn' ; t speak English too well. So it was all converse. Conversion was in Japanese. AT: And where were your parents from originally? RK: My mother was from Tokyo and my father was from Ofuna, which is in Kamakura. AT: And, so you spoke Japanese at home? RK: Yes. My father could read and speak English, so it was kind of easy when I talk with my father. But when my mother is strictly Japanese And, AT: Did you have a preference of language? RK: For me? AT: Did you have a preference in which language you use? RK: No, because even with some of my friends, we kind of, the Japanese kind of slips then, you know, and, so, um, oh, it was a very, it' ; s not like now where the kids have everything computer and things. We have to, we didn' ; t even have a telephone, so we have to go to some person' ; s house, knock on the door, and do your so and so. So it was very hard and, but, you were disciplined. So it didn' ; t matter if my folks said do it, then we did it. AT: And besides school and Japanese school, were you involved in any other activities or did your family go to church? RK: Yes, I went to first Baptist church. AT: So is that every Sunday? RK: Oh, yes, every Sunday. And then someone, they have a children' ; s program. Then my mother took, took me to the church and, so we could perform in whatever we have to do. AT: 00:06:48 And then, how old were you when Pearl Harbor was attacked? RK: 15. AT: And can you tell me a little bit about that day, of your recollections of that? RK: Oh, yes, I was, it was a Sunday afternoon. And, I was sitting on the front porch trying to take a breather. You know, I was thinking, what should our shoe work for school tomorrow? And if I did my lessons. Okay, so you know what passes through. Then, I saw from the distance, my father' ; s friend was coming in a fast pace and then he came and I bowed, and he is your father at home. I said, yes. He went up the steps and then I heard voices. Then he came running out and we didn' ; t have a phone or those days, no television, computer and new thing to give a fast information. So he was our information, inform, you know, he said no [?], my father said, get in the house. And I said why? Get In the house now. So I went in the house and he said that, Pearl Harbor was bombed. Gosh, why did I have to come in the house? I said, where is Pear Harbor? So my older brother, he turned on the radio and he said it' ; s in Hawaii. So I said, oh my gosh, you know, in those days, poli, you know, politics would then go through my mind, you know, it' ; s always what to wear [?] school kids, what the problems with. In a, so I said, oh my gosh, and then, listen to the radio. My father said, I' ; m going out to get the paper. So he brought about the paper and there was an abandoned headline through inch star, Jap bombed Pearl Harbor. I said, oh gosh, at least I could read English. And, so, that day was kind of silent. Yeah. We didn' ; t talk too much, but I could look on my parents' ; face, what' ; s going to happen and then, sure enough, these things start to happen. Sign on the telephone post came out and, um, my mother said that, we have to go to the church, Saint Mary' ; s to sign and register. But my brother was 16 then, so he was able to do a lot of things for us and have, gather everything up and pack our suitcases. Then she took me to my younger brother and I to Sears and said, uh, um, you, you have to get a pants suit, a boots. And a, I say, why? We don' ; t know where will be going. And we didn' ; t know what sand on need look like. So then, I recall just lately, my friend, we were writing to each other about camp and she sued. Her mother told her we had to dress dignity, dignify, you know, but my mother was opposite. You will know where you' ; re going so you' ; re going to buy the pants suit, we' ; re going to go with your boots. So I said okay. Then they bought suitcases and um, oh, anyway, we came home with it. Yeah, my father said that we' ; d better start doing, getting rid of things. So we had a little house sale and we sold a auto, you know, utilities, I mean, not on the tools and sofa, furniture. And the people came and, they bought a song and dance. And my father had, my parents had a fruit and vegetable market, so they have to get rid of that. Then, they had a truck. And it was just a whole mess of thing. And then my mother said, we have to start burning things. At that time I got straight, um, is a Japanese search Kojo no maru meaning A plus and the teacher said that you, you did very good on your writing in Japanese. So he read it in front of the high school and then, my mother got it be burned. I said, oh no, please let me keep it, said no, every, anything written, you never know. You know, they can' ; t read what you wrote. So I, so everything I had, it was burned. And, pictures and photographs, she just burned them all, so that we wouldn' ; t be hooked with all the, because you never know. Eyes are looking, you know, so it was a then all damn morning when we started, I was sitting on my suitcase and when my pants suit boots [?], there was a broom that my mother put in the corner, and I was looking at the broom, I said, I talked to her, her room. I said, well, you have to go. And I said, thanks for sweeping the house. And then, I got up and my mother said half an hour more, we' ; ll be leaving. I said, okay. So I grabbed my suitcase and I came to the front door. Then I heard a big something that room the broom fell down so I said oh gosh, saying goodbye to me, I guess, but all humor aside. But uh, when we went out, so, it started, it was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop. That' ; s how quiet the morning was. And, I just, I said I want to say goodbye to the neighbor next door, because she did a lot of soaring for us, you know, and there were black couples. So, I went and knocked on the door. I said, thank you very much. You' ; ve been a good neighbor and I really enjoy you, you know, your friendship. And, so we shook hand, then, that was it. She said she didn' ; t know what to say, so she just was silent. But I could tell by her looking in her eyes to say goodbye, you know, and, and, we all carry a suitcase and, radio and whatever we could carry, went down to the Saint Mary' ; s church. In there, it was whole line of a gray hound bus. And No, each bus at the doorway was a soldier with a fixed banner. So I said, what in the world? What' ; s going on? You know, but, so I, I was close by, I was still close to my mother and then, then to say, okay, everybody' ; s going to load up now. And, so we all went in the bus. No, not a lot of people dress dignify, you know, they had a Sushi they were eating [?]. I said, how can they do this? You know, I' ; m not hungry. I don' ; t want to know. I want to know where I' ; m going, what' ; s going to happen, I' ; ll lose all my friends and this, they have to maybe, that was their way of showing how maybe they don' ; t want to look or sad or anything. You know. I don' ; t know what the feeling was. But emotion was different, but between them and us, then, we came to, uh, Santa Anita Gateway and then, all of a sudden I felt like, oh gosh, I feel like, uh, not 15 anymore. We were old, you know, like more older. Uh, somehow something came over me and then that we went through the gate and we have to get off the bus, the bus. And I remember we went through, to make our own mattress. They threw that mattress bag at us and I said there was one guy was filling it, so I just, can I have the filled one. So he said, sure! He threw one of them. And then, um, the, the army and, the whole thing is he was in our neighborhood, his name was Jim Amonon, and we got to know each other. And I said, he was telling me he was one of the guys that filled the mattress. I say, well, how come you didn' ; t fill mine ... [?] ? And that' ; s, we are to cut, you know, we used to talk, sit and talk about incarceration. And he said, well, at least you know, we' ; re free now, so, and uh, but, uh. AT: I want to backtrack just a little bit because you see you were born in Seattle, but you weren' ; t there for your entire childhood. At some point, you move. RK: Yeah. 1937, we moved to Santa Monica, California. And then 1939, we moved to Los Angeles uptown and my folks are operated a fruit and vegetable market. AT: In, uptown LA RK: Santa Monica and uptown. Yes. AT: And, as far as, were there any immediate impacts of, of Pearl Harbor, did anything change in your life as a 15 year old? RK: Yeah, umm, I became very depressed, you know, because um, coming from Seattle and Santa Monica and so forth, and I finally got to know a lot of school kids, became friends and start to enjoy school and all of a sudden it just cut me off and I was just sad. Then when you went into camp, I just sat on the front steps in the camp. I just didn' ; t want to, it' ; s just, I was just depressed. And, um, my mother said, why don' ; t you go out and meet people? I say, no, I don' ; t want to meet anybody. I said that I lost, I lost something I cherished, you know, as. Then, I said that, uh, so I said, well I might as well work or something. So that' ; s I became a waitress there. And then wake up four o' ; clock in the morning and then, um, was $4 a month, I think it was $4. Then, work, uh, carrying bowls. Why is like this. And serving coffee and then chatting with the kitchen helper. And then after six months they said that the barracks were built. So you' ; ll have to go to Jerome mark. So we got a order, you know, so when on the train, took a bus three days just to get to Arkansas and they pulled the shade down so we could not see out. But you know, as kids, we, I saw, you know, black people picking cotton, I said, oh my goodness, where are we going? You know, and then, um, oh, it was lucky my mother got me to pant suit and the boots and the, it was muddy. When we got off to get, you know, then she roam. Yeah, it was just a terrible experience. But, uh, after awhile I got to know a few, you know, girlfriends because we' ; d go to school and I didn' ; t care for school and it was just a terrible experience for me. But later on have to move to Roller. Uh, it became easier for me and the people were at Roller. I got different group of friends and we all went to school together and this and that. And uh, so, 1945, oh, we, I graduated high school in Roller and um, let' ; s see, we went, uh, we went to Little Rock, we got permission to go Little Rock. So we ran on the army truck to go to Little Rock and we bought our dresses and shoes for the graduation and we came back on the bus on the truck again. And uh, so we better hurry, you got, you girls better hurry, because they are gonna close the gate on us. So we have to hurry and look for dresses and shoes, and. But uh, and, let' ; s see, after graduation, do you know, we' ; ve got a notice then, there was a big meeting that the war has ended. So we went there for a prayer meeting and then, and also another meeting was the, when Hiroshima was bombed, we went to that one too. We pray for the people and uh, in Hiroshima. But, um, then my father said, well I could go out now, so I' ; m going to go out to Chicago. There was a people that will support him for one give him apartment and so forth, rooming placed anyway. And uh, he called us, um, and he said that, uh, I guess he wrote to my mother and he said, we are coming out now because, uh, I got a place, I got an apartment and I have a job. So the family could come out now. So, um, the address was 4115 South Drexel. And uh, it was a second floor. I remember. And I just sat by the window and just look out and I said, oh gosh, what' ; s going to happen to me now? Because I' ; m, I can look out, and then, I' ; m so used to seeing Japanese faces. Now it' ; s different. And then, uh, my mother said, take a month off, get yourself adjusted and then, start looking for a job. So I just sat at the window and, uh, I said, gee, what' ; s going to happen? And um, uh, fun, yeah, find a job and lots of jobs. So I just, I came out with no money in my pocket, so at least. Its about $26 was my first pay check. And then I worked on the line, you say, hey, you! Meaning, you know, as, you better do better than this. I said, oh gosh. And then the day after day, you know, they say, hey you! You know, these were tough women. I finally got sick, my nerves all shot. For 10 days I was in bed, my mother had to feed me. I said, Oh God, you know, it was just the one thing after another. And then, so I just went to the, mmm hmm. Manager and I said, I' ; m sorry about quitting. I spent 10 days at home. I can' ; t take this job anymore, so I said, just send me my check. And I walked out. AT: And where, what was the company or where was the, RK: It was on 26th street. Uh, it was a, um, they made a metal picture frame. And what I have to do was a spot weld on one corner, so it becomes a frame. But if you don' ; t do it right, they send it off. Then it became a, I just think, well, I couldn' ; t take it anymore. And I got awfully sick and I was in the washroom and a girl came and said, we got to make a quarter. What are you doing down here? I said, I' ; m too sick. I can' ; t move. And they called the superintendent. So he came, he said, yeah, you look sick. So he sent me home. And but the, AT: And you' ; re so your father left before your family? RK: Yeah. AT: And found the, the job and the apartment. Um, what job did he find? RK: He was working for a school supply. I can' ; t remember the name, but uh, in all the school or tablets and books, I think whatever school supply the furnished. And uh, my mother was at home yet, but then she got a job working for auto lamp I think was the name. They all with the Issei women, they form a little group. And my older brother was in the army that time and my younger brother going to, uh, school yet. And, uh AT: Which school did he go to? RK: Let' ; s see, what was it? I can' ; t remember the name now. High School. Um, he would go then he got a scholarship. And he went to art institute, but I can' ; t remember the name of the high school. AT: And your older brother, um, so was he drafted or? RK: Yes, uh huh, he was, uh, going to go to Europe and uh, the war was still going on. It wouldn' ; t, they shipped him to go to uh, ready to go on board to go Europe. The war ended. So he was then he said, then we' ; re going to ship you to Japan. So when he was going to go to Japan, same thing happened. The war ended. So they sent him, how to say, they sent him to MIS School to be a translator and to learn more Japanese and talk to right and speak. And then that' ; s how he went to Japan as a translator. And, I don' ; t know how long he was there. Maybe two years or so. AT: And, do you remember your, your feelings or reactions to him joining? RK: Him joining? No, because, uh, I feel he' ; s drafted so he can' ; t do anything, but I felt kind of proud that he had an American uniform on. And, uh, he met, he met all our relatives, and he was able to help them with food and cigarettes and whatever they need. So, um, I, I said that you know, somebody is there from us, our family, it is good because they could help out and uh, whatever comes up, he could go to the army headquarters somewhere, help, help the people out. And um, both my cousin, the first cousin, second cousin, they, they kind of went for him because he was, he was kind of good looking, you know, how it is with uniform. So when I went to Japan, she said, gee, your brother was good looking, I said, but uh. AT: And did he come back to Chicago? RK: Yes, he came, came back to Chicago. For a while he worked, I don' ; t know where he worked but uh, he got married. So he and his wife with one child, the first child they went to California and now I think Los Angeles. And then they moved to Orange County, then they went to Oceanside. And, mmm, that' ; s where they both passed away. And so, uh, both my brothers gone. I' ; m the only, and my parents are gone. So I' ; m the only one left of the Kobayashi family. And I see 91 years old and oh gosh. My father was 99 and a half. He was waiting to be a hundred, but he didn' ; t make it. But uh. AT: 00:27:46 And um, do you remember your, your first impressions of Chicago when you moved here? RK: When I first came from the camp out, I say, gees, this is dirty city. You know, was thinking. When I said, you know, my father came to pick us up and he came home and not care, but I think it was, if I remember correctly and then, um, we went up second floor. And I said, oh gosh, there were a lot of cockroaches and my mother' ; s oh my Gosh, you know, and then, uh, but that' ; s the best he could do it at that time. And uh, but there was a Hyde Park neighborhood in the, a lot of Jewish people were there, and then there was a convenience store uh, on a, 41 or3 or something like that. And I went into it one day, and they took me under their wings. They taught me about classical music. They taught me about the, they told me to get this workbook, the music, they told me what place to go to get dresses, and they said that. So they made me feel welcome. And then when I went to the Hyde Park Delicatessen, oh, I loved the cadeshas, it was big, and then hot when they made it. So they, therefore they see me come in, they give me the hot ones and I learned to like the Jewish food. And then I began to like the Jewish people, they were so kind to me. And then, uh, then later on I found out that about the Holocaust. So I said maybe that, maybe that' ; s the attraction they got because they found out that I was incarcerated. So I have many good friends now of Jewish people and, um, they' ; ve been very good to me. And there was one that' ; s working at the zoo, Lincoln Park Zoo, as a volunteer. Every Tuesday I see her, we exchanged bag. I give her books and magazines and, uh, medical, um, medical things, uh, written datas. And she gives me this, um, her magazine and we exchange. So, um, but I really enjoyed them. The Jewish people. AT: And um, what were the demographics of Hyde Park at that time when you first moved there? RK: Pardon me? AT: What were the demographics of the neighborhood at the time? Um, in Hyde Park when you first moved. Who were living there? RK: Oh, it was uh, before the blacks came in, it was a Jewish, and uh, I don' ; t know, Caucasian, anyway, I don' ; t know who they were, but, uh, and then they, um, then I don' ; t, um, across the street. Uh, Hyde Park, a center opened up and the people who go in there and they could join the club and so forth. And uh, there was um, oh remember. There was a Japanese gift store. And I helped the lady out. And, uh, and my friend, she' ; s Italian, she came and, uh, helped the lady out, she took photographs and the lady liked to shift. I' ; m going to give you a Japanese name. I' ; m going to Daniel Terumi meaning shining from with them. You know, Oh, and she liked that. She is [?] Terumi. So even to now she calls me Terumi. Okay. AT: Where, where was that shop? RK: Huh? AT: Where was the shop? RK: Oh gosh, I was on 50. I can' ; t remember. No, it was about a block away. So 4115, so it would be, well, anyways, blocks south of 4115. AT: Uh, and what, what kinds of things were sold there? RK: Oh, Japanese products plus uh, ladies scarves. Neon Uh, dishes and, um, I can' ; t remember. Cause I didn' ; t stay too long, you know, I just help as a temporary help because she needed somebody to, when she was in the back doing something. And, I guess like what a gift store would be, you know, narrow coin purses and things like that. AT: And uh, in Hyde Park at that time, were there other Japanese American families? RK: Yes. Yes. There was quite a few. Those uh, oh, let' ; s see. Japanese food stall, And, uh, but I can' ; t remember where they were at because my parents went to the shop. And, um, let' ; s see what else we, I guess there was a restaurant too. But uh, we didn' ; t have money so we couldn' ; t go eat at a restaurant. But, uh, I don' ; t know too much around the surroundings too much. And uh, because I had to start going work and I know 51st street was a, a little rumble there. You know, all kinds of stores there, you know, was a bookstore I remember, it' ; s still there yet. And uh, they had a tree trunk and the people put signs up. I think they still do that. I haven' ; t been down to for ages. So. AT: How long did your family live over there? RK: Well, I moved out, uh, when I was 27. I said, I have to get out of here because my job is on the north side. AT: Which job was that? RK: Oh, let' ; s see, I worked for a AC Mc club. It was a wholesale place. There' ; s quite a few Japanese working there. And uh, let' ; s see, I was living on Linen Avenue, on 909, I think it was. Weslyan, and uh, I was on the second floor and there was one, but it was owned by a Japanese. And all was under third floor. That' ; s right. Third floor. So the water system, too much water. And uh, AT: Were you living alone? RK: Yes, I was alone. Then, my friend, um, uh, the, Terumi, she were learning how to play cello and she said, uh, I have to study, but I have no, no, I have to go all the way downtown. I go out every afternoon, so why don' ; t you use the apartment? Nobody' ; s going to bother you. So that' ; s how we became friends too, you know. And uh, she, she became a beautiful cellos, but they said that if you don' ; t, if you' ; re not a guy, you can' ; t get ahead in those days. You know. So I guess, what the, the teacher, uh, she had a top notch teacher that she played for lyric opera and uh, another guy he played for Milwaukee Symphony. And they want her too, but she said, I can' ; t because I got to join the union and then, uh, if you' ; re going to join the union, you got to or she said it was just too messy. So she, anyway, uh, I was living alone anyway. AT: And, um, in those first few years that you were in Chicago. RK: Um, what were some of the challenges of, of moving to a new place? Oh. AT: And, and, to moving to Chicago. Did you experience any challenges? RK: Well, I expense uh, Oh, I taking subway and it was close contact with people in those days. And then the guys, you know, this [?] a woman standing there now all of a sudden like your leg around my, his leg around my leg and things like that, I said, what' ; s going on. And then, uh, I was was going to go upstairs to catch the L? Yeah. Oh, going upstairs to catch the L and, uh, the guy stopped me and I couldn' ; t get through. And um, the lady and the, um, the one that takes the money, cashiers, she knocked and said, you' ; d let her go through, I' ; ll call the cops. I mean number, things like that. And um, in that each job I had, if I didn' ; t like the job, I' ; d just roll up my apron, throw it up, and I said, I quit. And then I go to the office, send me my check, because not improving me. And I get on just slur remarks when the people, hey you, that' ; s, that' ; s the, that was a thing then, hey, you, not my name, but hey you, so, uh, if I didn' ; t have a college degree or anything, it was putting tough. Then after awhile, they said, you have a college degree, BS anyway? I say, no, I don' ; t have any, just a high school diploma while we can' ; t hire you. So, you know, it was, it was just, I just, uh, I just felt like a piece of just the Hong Kong beat, huh, but my mother said, you know, just just be calm and just be yourself. And I was daddy girl. So he used to say, you know, there are many nice people here, regardless of their age or the color of the skin. Be nice and you know, learn to like people. So that' ; s how I, he told me what to do and that was the best thing he told me because I meet so many nice people here in Chicago more than New York or California. And even if a, I' ; m sitting on the bus and then I happened to look like this. I see somebody smiling. I say, I smile back. It made my day, you know, so I still love Chicago in the, like the other day I was eating at uh, Mcdonald' ; s and a lady, the black lady sat next to me and then I gave her one of my hand wipe. So you know, it' ; s kind of, you don' ; t know what she touch. Oh, thank you very much. She said, would you like, uh, fries? I said, well, I' ; ll take a couple of them. So she gave me a couple of fish fries. We start talking. She said, I' ; m a teacher. And I say, what do you teach? She said, I teach everything. You know that place up there by, uh, she was telling me, uh, used to be a restaurant bomb down below an upstairs, a char, I think a charter school. Was she. What was there to teach. I said, oh wow. And I found out she very educated person, you know. So I came home and I told Terumi about it. She said, oh wow, that' ; s nice. Because you know, and I said, I didn' ; t see any color in her. I just, you know, we both sat there like we knew each other for a long time and we talked and talked all through the meal. This is [?] I have to go now, huh, but, you know. AT: Do you think that' ; s something that' ; s particular to Chicago? RK: Pardon me? AT: Do you think that' ; s something that' ; s particular to Chicago? RK: What I can' ; t ... AT: You said that you felt like people were nicer in Chicago than say New York or California? RK: Yes. The New York is so fast, you know, and uh, you have Garmin just looking this and that. I like the calmness, you know, I mean, uh, they' ; ll come up and it' ; s, so comical. One day I was waiting for the bus and a guy came rushing up and he said, I want to ask you, are you Filipino? I said, no, that' ; s number one. What' ; s next? Are you Chinese? No, I' ; m not Chinese. Are you ah, this, are you that? I think five of them, he was saying, and he said, well, I give up. What are you? I said, I' ; m American, and I' ; m Japanese. And he said, oh, okay. Then, he disappeared. It' ; s so funny, you know, but. AT: And to go back to, um, uh, those earlier days when you first moved here, um, what were, so you, you went from a move from the south side to the north side. Can you tell me a little bit about, um, what was different in your experiences, either part of town? RK: What a, when I move up closer to the north side, it was close to that, uh, Wilson Avenue L, I heard it was dangerous. In that, there' ; s a lot of American Indians living along the, and uh, so it was a different atmosphere. And then, uh, I was walking, you said that uh, I heard two girls talking and then, they were talking about their lives. And I said, you know, they had been abused too, you know, the Indians, so I guess their life was, uh, well, I don' ; t know, just, just as worse as mine. Well, the atmosphere was so different because when I was on the south side, I will end a day, they give you all the warmth, you know, and I come up there, it' ; s cold. And in the, in the, even though building that I' ; m living in on the third floor, it was cold because, not, not that the water don' ; t come up, but the, the people there, you know, they just walk on by you, you know, and I said, gee. And um, they had terrible fights in that building, you know. Then all of a sudden I see cockroaches and I said, oh my gosh, I told, I said, Terumi, actually, her name is Dorothy. I said we got the, I got to get outta here. I can' ; t take it anymore. So, in fact, my place was robbed too, somebody then, uh, uh, I have bet then, uh the private detective came, he said as an inside job now, who would take my movie camera? Just my movie camera and that' ; s it. I' ; ve got to get outta here. So we, um, I said, I tell you what, Dorothy, let' ; s you and I, we share rent. We could find a place, we' ; ll go have, you know, two, three bedroom or something. And then, um, you could practice all you want and then, so I was looking at the paper, and then I found a coach house, so we went down there and he said, yeah, he' ; ll rent to us. So I said good. AT: Where was that? RK: Huh? AT: Where was that? RK: Uh, let' ; s see, 642 Schubert avenue, right next to Clark Street, almost. AT: And um, on the north side, around that time, do you remember any, uh, Japanese American owned businesses or a market or [?] RK: Yes, I remember on division street, uh, the jewelry store was owned by Japanese and uh, there was a Toguri gift store. They moved to Belmont after awhile and a, the gift store, I mean, the jewelry store moved to, um hm. I think it was Clark street. Yeah. Narrow above uh, Diversity. And then, I remembered going to the Japanese restaurant and they had a horse shoe shape, uh, you know, tables and, her name was Kio, she came from Japan as a war bride. I think, and uh, so we got to know each other, well bless you. AT: Thank you. RK: We got to know each other and then she stopped going to open a restaurant so it was, um, she opened it, I think it was near Division, oh, near Diversity and Clark called Kio restaurant and it was beautiful restaurant and they had a sliding doors where you could have a boot, a little room, they have a hole in the floor, so you could put your leg down and they had a table and then, the waitress come with a Japanese Kimono and then, you know, bow traditional Japanese style. So we order our food and a, a cup of, a few, see it. Four of us from the place where I work, uh, we went there. One was Polish, one was Jewish and no, two were Jewish and one was Dorothy and myself. So we all went in that room and we really had a nice time. We order Sake and thing we pretended like we were drunken, but the, that was a nice place. Then one day she said, I lost my shop. And I said, what happened? She said, uh, the kids took over. They did just put me in, then the chef. Chef ended up in a nursing home and I said, oh my gosh, what happened? You know, a lively woman then, down in a nursing home. So I went to see her and she was just, oh, very depressed. Next time, maybe she' ; ll go back to Japan where she came from. I didn' ; t say anything, but that' ; s how she ended up and I felt so bad. But um, the other restaurants there, I don' ; t know. Oh well I' ; m living now, there was a Ito Sushi and that' ; s gone. She' ; s, he said after 35 years, I don' ; t want to do anymore. So that was my favorite restaurant Ito Sushi because like almost like home cooking to me, but the other restaurant. Um. AT: And um, how long were you on Schubert? RK: Oh, which, uh, 642? Oh, let' ; s see, 19, 1977. Uh, we went through 1138 Schubert. She bought the home there? Yes. AT: And um, so that' ; s farther west? RK: Yes. It' ; s between Lincoln and Racine, and between Schubert and Diversity, it' ; s, it' ; s in the right hood, um, neighborhood AT: And um, throughout this time, uh, when you were working, um, did you do any other activities outside of work? Were you involved in any churches or, RK: No, I was, uh, involved with my hobby be, both our hobby became uh, photography, Dorothy and I, and then, um, uh, that time I was living at the south side yet. And uh, my friend called me and she said, her friend was going to go to the YWCA. She wants to learn photography. So would you go with her please? And I said, so I took my little box, I went, and the next time I was, oh, I thought she will be there. She dropped out. She didn' ; t care for it, but I stayed. I stayed in, uh, in the, one day. Then Dorothy came in and I was sitting at the piano and she said, uh, do you play piano? I said, no, I' ; m just sitting here waiting for, um, meaning to start. So we started talking and she said, do you like classical music? I said, oh, I love classical music. Opera, you name it. And so she' ; s, I do too. So window was a Madam Butterfly came. We both went in, uh, um, had our Rutgers signed by Tibaldi. She was a singer then, you know, in the gut. The comical thing was we both had a blue raincoat on and we had, we were taking a shortcut to the opera house and there was two women. One was on the ground and one was on her knees, you know, and she thought we were cops cause we had a black person sit, please don' ; t take my sister to the hospital, to the jail, you know, she said, she didn' ; t do anything wrong. I said, pick up your sister and take her home now. Then, we were pour laughing at. So she said, oh guy we were both, we were, uh, just the other day we were talking about that. I said, gee, we must look tough. AT: Mmm, and then, uh, did your parents and your family, did they stay in that building on the, near Hyde Park? RK: Oh, my folks did for awhile. Then, uh, they decided to move north, so they move, do you remember on Racine there was a goldlets, or I guess not, we are anyway, was uh, near the Buddhist church. Up the, um, it was, there was a lot of, big apartment building. So they moved there. I can' ; t think of the address, but, uh, near the Buddhist church that I could know it was on Racine. That' ; s all I know. They moved there and they liked it there. It was lived, and you know, close to goal bloods. My mother' ; s favorite scar goal. Uh, and the friends. It was easier for her friends, their friends to come over. And, um, so more than the south side, you know, a lot of driving to do so. The, uh, they decided to come move north, so the friends could come, visit them AT: And, throughout your time in Chicago. Um, did you have any kind of involvement in the Japanese American community here? RK: Oh, let' ; s see. No, not too much, no. AT: Did you ever go to any picnics or festivals or anything like that? RK: Well, they have this, I like the, they used to have a, um, they call it a Kodomo fair, but uh, AT: Kodomo matsuri? RK: Yeah, I don' ; t know when that is now. I thought it was in November. AT: It just, it was last weekend. RK: Yeah. I see [?] I didn' ; t get any notice, so I missed it. But then they used to have another different, uh, gathering there. But, uh, other than that, I didn' ; t do too much because mostly I was going on my photography trip and not a, not a good photographer, but became a hobby, you know, and, uh, when, um, then, I used to work on the south side 800 Wabash and um, it was run by a Jewish man. And it was a funny interview. I thought I have to write uh, upper, register and all that. He said, what does your father do? I said he, oh, he retired. What does your mother do? She retired too. And uh, so how about your brothers? Do you have two brothers? I said one is a art editor, and the other one is a cost accountant you hired. That' ; s how I got harder [?] job. AT: What was the job? RK: It was a picking orders, you know, as a musical warehouse place. So they had anything connected with music, um, guitars and cello, different accordions and things, you know, and it was 95% Caucasian and then within a few months turn all black. So I had a hard time trying to get adjusted, but I am not, I don' ; t want to say this thing because you know, that' ; s their way of approaching me and doing things. So one day I had a pencil in my pocket, I threw it across the room. I said, I quit. You know, I took my locker key, went downstairs and I told uh, I said, uh, I forgot his name, I put the key on the table. He said, why, what' ; s wrong? I said, I don' ; t want to say anything, I just quit, just send me my check. So I just walked out like that, cause all were afraid, they' ; re going to hurt me. They were tough woman. And, uh, well I' ; ll tell you one incident, she pushed me against the wall. Ripped my blouse open, she said you are a hunky. I said, I' ; m not a hunky. I said you get, you, you might have a black pants, but you know, I have a yellow pants and they are very fierce. There is no thing as yellow pants. But, uh, I mean I had to say something to protect myself, but, AT: 00:55:33 And um, before we wrap up, um, uh, in what ways, if any, would you say that, um, the incarceration during World War Two and resettling in Chicago, in what ways did that, uh, impact you and your life? RK: Oh, I see, incarceration. Um, I was glad to get out and was free. And uh, coming to Chicago, um, I was very lucky because I didn' ; t care for the East Coast or the West Coast and uh, cause I couldn' ; t get a job either place, not only tha, you have to drive certain places. That, uh, I love Chicago and I, like I say, I love the people and I love, uh, I like the parks and everything is close by and then, the neighbors are good and, they take me as I am and, uh, they always say good morning and say what' ; s up, what today? I say I' ; m going shopping as usual this [?]. But people are so friendly. And of course there' ; s one or two of them actually they, they throw the rhubarb in. But, uh, other than that, I thought, I love living here in Chicago and, um, was 75 years of different experience. I think, uh, I' ; m very fortunate that I have my religion, which I say my prayer every night. I thank God that people here they take me as I am even to drop me a smile. It makes my day. And I said that uh, what else, they shake my hand and I feel the warmth. I said, where else can you get that? What else can, you know, now seeing there is a baby mother. I say, oh, how cute in the baby sleeping. I say, I wish I could sleep like that. And the mother will say so do I. But you know, it' ; s a, it' ; s a real, comical and it' ; s real nice feeling. AT: Um, you' ; ve mentioned that you' ; ve been to the gallery a few times. RK: Yes. AT: Um, why, why is this particular history or experience, um, why is it important to, to remember and [?] RK: Oh, number one is the photographers, cause I know the photographers, I mean I read up, I don' ; t know them personally and I know, and so Adam, that' ; s a good camera and is sharp. And Dorothea Lange, she goes to any means to get a picture. And, uh, and then if I see somebody looks me at what something I donate, like today, a young girl is looking. I came by and I said, excuse me, but this is what I donate. This is my name. And she said, these two arm bands. I told him, story what happened to the arm band and she listened very carefully. And then I took her around and uh, with different pictures I explained to them and, uh, I said, uh, then her, then her grandparents came and then, the whole family is moving with me. And, uh, they even invited me to have lunch with him. I said, no, I have to go shopping. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. You know, when I said that a, we want you to come, I said, maybe, you know, it' ; s just that, um, I would like to come, but it' ; s just that I have other things to do and uh, please excuse me. You know, I appreciate your thoughts. So, and uh, AT: What was the, the arm bands that you donated? RK: It has, uh, two " ; K" ; s on the ... That " ; K" ; stands for kitchen [?] and uh, so I explained to the girl in the one little camouflage, uh, pin. Or whatever it' ; s made out of camouflage it looks like a mammy or something right next to the arm band. So I explained to the girl that was made with the scrap of the camouflage. So when we came to the camouflage, she saw there them working. So she took a picture of that, and I said somebody' ; s scraps, no dude [?], the girl would just make it and took the little, uh, Bandanna under. They painted the lips and eyes and then I said, so she' ; s, gee, that' ; s something special, isn' ; t it? I said, yeah, this is why I wanted to give. I wanted to donate that, and I said, everything here, I had it in a box or something, but when they saved, they need donation, I was so happy that I have stuff to give them. I don' ; t know the um, government, uh, issue paper for my parents, but, uh, like I say, Chicago is it with me. And no matter what I had, uh, since 1945, I had a very nice life here in Chicago and I appreciate it. And, um, I take on another thing is a couple of time I went to the Japanese American service center, uh, the farming jobs and, uh, so I approved, I like Chicago. I can' ; t say anything bad about it. Of course, there are a lot of bad things happening. But on the whole, you know, when my, my boundary and life as lucks [?]. AT: If you could pass down any kind of message or legacy for future generations, what' ; s something that you would want to leave behind? RK: Yes. I like to say that, um, young people, y' ; all very fortunate. You could go to college, you could get, you know, nice jobs, nice paying job. You can get, you can marry into a good family. And uh, you could uh. There are so many things you could do that we couldn' ; t do. You could become a engineer. You could become a fire woman or firearm man, uh, scientists. And uh, a lot of things that you could become. Well, I couldn' ; t get that chance. It was like secretory housewife or nurse or something of that sort. We' ; ll look more or less, you know, have few choices, but you have all kinds of choices, you could wear what you want, you could [?] speak fine English or you could speak American language, you know, like go for it this and that. But you have a lot of freedom where other countries don' ; t have that, so make use, make good use of what you have your life, make yourself, you know, present of all, don' ; t, don' ; t get out of the way, you know, Get yourself to somebody too, take care of the elderlys and, you know, volunteer for something good purpose and oh, I don' ; t know there' ; s so many things you could, you have choice to do. And uh, if I was your age, I will be doing all, all the things I just spoke right now trying to be something, or another thing. When I was in camp, the biggest thing that helped me was the roar federated church. Going to Sunday school and going to church and then become a choir member. And there was one beautiful song that the choir have to sing and I could never forget it. I thought how beautiful. And that' ; s a lady. Um, her name was, the last name was Griffin. What did I think she had a beautiful voice and she sang this. I just knelt down. It was so beautiful. I had this knelt-down and uh, when I came to Chicago, I looked down before that music that one founded in, uh, so the church helped me quite a bit and uh, I found beautiful people in the church because they were more like, you know, even kio with me. But, um, I don' ; t know. That' ; s my life. AT: Well, thank you so much for coming in and sharing. Um, before we wrap up, is there any last thing that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? RK: Pardon me? AT: There are any last thing you' ; d like to add or that, anything on me have missed in this conversation? RK: Yes. I, I wanna say this is a beautiful, uh, exhibit. And I am surprised so many people have come. And I have invited so many people. I took a bunch of those cards and I took, wrote down the time and the date and the free parking. So people came and uh, uh one of the other girls. She said, uh, she went to, she belonged to a group and she said, Tom [?] the whole group to come and look, this is history. So, uh, I think it was, the set up is beautiful. Yeah. beautiful, large and uh, in large photos. Well it grabs the people. And I' ; ve, I' ; m glad that it is the history came alive and uh, the people finally got to know what the Japanese went through. And I want to thank the Alpha Wood in the Japanese American citizen lean or service, I guess, would their efforts to put up the beautiful set up like this. It' ; s a beautiful exhibit and then, you can, can help [?] become emotional inside. So, thank you. Alpha Wood. Thank you, Japanese American Service Center. I' ; m, I have more things to donate too, you know. To the American, and I found another box filled. AT: Yeah, whatever you do [?] anything away. We' ; ll share to donate it. Well, thank you so much again for taking the time. RK: Thank you for this time. I know I kind of chit chat too much. So my friend said you should go and tell, tell how you felt. So I said, I don' ; t know. I' ; m kind of skeptical. Well, I mean, you' ; re not, but. I' ; ve got little brave. Do you know? AT: I appreciate it. I appreciate you being so open RK: As the Jewish people say, Hutzpah! That' ; s what I got. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KobayashiRyoko20171116.xml KobayashiRyoko20171116.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kobayashi, Ryoko (11/16/2017)
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2017-11-16
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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e39eda439f0aff540cca64fc77f97016
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Koizumi, Edward
Interview Keyword
Kibei
Nambu-cho
Yamanashi-ken
Manzanar
McClurg Company
Nichiren Buddhist Church
Institute of Design
Illinois Institute of Technology
OHMS Object Text
5.4 5/12/2021 Koizumi, Edward (5/12/2021) 1:20:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kibei Nambu-cho Yamanashi-ken Manzanar McClurg Company Nichiren Buddhist Church Institute of Design Illinois Institute of Technology Koizumi, Edward Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|18(1)|34(11)|45(15)|56(10)|70(9)|81(5)|96(5)|117(3)|125(2)|138(5)|152(13)|167(6)|180(14)|194(1)|205(16)|220(4)|236(12)|248(4)|259(18)|271(3)|284(2)|297(13)|307(6)|317(9)|332(7)|342(3)|350(14)|360(7)|369(13)|379(13)|390(12)|402(11)|414(12)|425(4)|438(13)|449(5)|458(4)|470(3)|483(5)|496(2)|511(2)|525(2)|537(8)|547(5)|558(11)|569(6)|582(11)|592(14)|605(11)|616(8)|634(10)|648(2)|663(6)|675(1)|686(6)|699(4)|713(9)|727(2)|736(3)|750(8)|760(5)|769(14)|784(11)|795(5)|807(1)|816(1)|828(3)|837(8)|845(3)|858(8)|869(10)|885(2)|897(8)|905(14)|917(11)|927(5)|938(13)|948(13)|963(2)|973(9) 0 https://vimeo.com/551685115/4be1789505 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/551685115?h=4be1789505" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Edward Shinichi Koizumi is a shin-issei born in 1950 in Nambu, Yamanashi, Japan. Edward Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is May 12, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Edward Shinichi Koizumi. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. So let' ; s begin with just a little bit of background about you, and if you could please state your full name for me. Edward Koizumi (EK): Oh, my name is Edward Shinichi Koizumi. EL: Thank you, and what' ; s your year of birth? EK: Oh, uh born 1950. EL: Alright, and where were you born? EK: I was born in Nambu-cho, Yamanashi-ken, Japan. And this would have been the ancestral home of my maternal grandfather whom we' ; re talking about today. EL: Right, and how old were you when you first came to the U.S.? EK: Um, it was 1955, so I would have been four and a half. And just a little bit before starting kindergarten, kindergarten would have come about half a year later, and you know coming to America was quite a shock in that you know I think the first thing we did was start taking off our shoes as we entered the apartment in Chicago and my grandparents saying " ; Oh no, no in, in America we don' ; t have to take off our shoes." ; And I, we thought that was quite, quite a shock I thought. EL: And, I understand that your family' ; s journey to the U.S. actually began much earlier than your arrival, so could you tell me a little bit about the first people? EK: Actually it was great-- yeah, actually it was great-grandfather. His name was Bunjiro Koizumi, and he had come to the United States at the age of 21. And I couldn' ; t tell you what year it was, I, sorry I didn' ; t do the research there. But, he called for his son, which would have been my grandfather, Seiichi Koizumi and Seiichi came when he was 16-years-old and-- And this would have been the Seattle area. And you know there were various work for you know, immigrants. I remember him talking about working in a canning company, I think they were you know, canning salmon. And he was a young man so he would you know be up in the, you know near the top of the, of the mechanism, you know this, this big assembly-line machine. And he would be loading the, the empty cans on top. And so these empty cans would be coming down the chute and all these people would be very busily, you know packing the uh, the cans with, with fish. And then, you know one of the stories-- and he was, I think a bit of a devil, even as a, as a young man. He said every so often you know he would, rather than putting the cans in this way as he should, he' ; d see the people working below, working very hard and sweating, he said " ; Oh I' ; ll put the can in this way" ; and then this can would go down the chute and jam up the machine. (laughs) And, and then everybody got a 15-minute break while the engineers you know came out and they had to clear the machine. Anyway, that' ; s the kind of person that he was I think. (laughs) So, he did various kinds of work, um-- There was a lot of produce going-- a lot of, uh growing and so uh-- I' ; m not so sure he did that much farming he didn' ; t, you know say that much about that, but he was doing you know clerking, and working in grocery stores, even at one point he traveled and he was working at a railroad line and they said uh, one of the things that he did was to jump on the train as it left the station, and then he would work his way up to the, the lantern of this, of the, the steam engine clean it off, and then as soon as that was clean, he would jump off, and then he' ; d you know walk back to the station and so, so he said, " ; You know the faster you work the, the shorter a trip it was back to the station!" ; So I, I think he had quite a colorful career. EL: Was he in Seattle that whole period? EK: Uh he was, um until um-- Well let' ; s see. Well, when he was 20 he went back to, to J- to Japan, and my older sister June was saying that there was a change in the law which would have made it more difficult for, for immigrants to bring people over, your family members over. So they, they learned about that so he thought that was a good opportunity to get married, so he went back to the old village and, and he married a uh, a woman that he had known previously. Um, and then, then he went back to America, to, to work some more and to make enough money so that he could bring his wife over, and so she came over, and-- So I guess she would have been 20. Um, I asked my grandmother, her name would be Rei Koizumi, her maiden name was Sano, if she was afraid of coming to, you know, a new country without you know, knowing the language, and she said, " ; No" ; . And I was, really quite surprised that uh, that she was so adventurous and bold like that, and but I think maybe that was, you know her personality. And, and I think for people who are immigrants to the United States, you know they wanted something better for themselves. Um, now I was born, coincidentally I was born in the same uh house, that he had lived in, and uh-- And you know the area is rural, it' ; s a, it' ; s a mountain valley, and people were, you know, subsistence farmers. You know they grew rice and they grew vegetables for themselves, and there wasn' ; t a whole lot of spending money, you know there wasn' ; t any cash crops, so you know I think a lot of the adventuresome people you know, wanted something better for themselves and decided to, to head off. And America was the um, you know the place of opportunity then. EL: Do you know if your grandparents or your great-grandfather lived near other Japanese immigrant families? EK: There must have been because I think a lot of immigrants, you know they' ; re fortunate enough to, um you know have the community of, of people from their-- you know, of their own nationality. Although he was very early on, probably would have been in, in the earliest peoples. So, you know, I-- that I do not know and, you know unfortunately at this point, there' ; s no one left to ask you know a lot of these questions that we might have! And you know when I was younger well, you know these weren' ; t questions that I had. I pretty much you know took for granted that you know here we were you know in this country and uh, you know, a-and living f-fairly well. And hadn' ; t really appreciated the hard work and the, you know and perhaps the prejudices that they had to work through to get to you know where we were then. EL: So we have your great-grandfather, comes to the U.S. then calls his son over, EK: That' ; s right. EL: --and that would be your grandfather who then returned to Japan to find a wife, t-to marry someone actually he knew before. Then he comes back to the U.S. and then she follows once there' ; s enough money. EK: That' ; s correct, yeah, a little while later yeah. EL: And then could you fill in a little bit of what happened after that? EK: Okay so this was still in Seattle, um-- I think it was about, oh maybe 10, 12 years later that, that Grandfather' ; s father Bunjiro decides to go back to Japan. And he goes back to Japan permanently. And at this point the young couple moves down to the Los Angeles area, and I don' ; t know when, you know, the children came along, but uh, their first, you know their, the eldest, their, their daughter, named Lily Hisae sh- she came along first and then came Herbert Shuichi and then the youngest was Wood Masao Koizumi and, and then Grandfather got into the uh, the produce business, being a greengrocer. He would drive his truck to the various growers in the area, you know load up his truck and then bring it down to his market and then he would display them and you know people would come and um, you know and buy the goods. I think he had a number of different stores, you know, you know not simultaneously but he would start-- you know he would start simply and the first store seemed more like a stall and then I think he had a few, and then by the time 1945 came along he-- it was, or, ' ; 41, it was a fairly large store that he had had. EL: Do you know what the name of his store was? EK: It had a number of different names because he would you know buy, buy one and then he' ; d sell that and buy, you know, and then upgrade. And, well one of the, the store names was called Sam' ; s and, and you know h-he di-- he wouldn' ; t bother to change the sign, I mean why, you know, why waste the money to change the sign, and then people started calling him Sam ' ; cuz, you know, he was the owner, and so he decided, ' ; Well Sam' ; s a good name' ; (laughs) and so I think that' ; s how he, he got his American name. And, you know I guess our family tended to uh, adopt American names just to make it simpler, you know, for us to navigate. So he became Sam. I don' ; t believe my grandmother ever took a American name though she was always Rei. Um, but you know the uh, the children had American names. Uh-- EL: So then, what happened in 1941 or leading up to 1941? EK: Well you know, when, well shortly before, well before Pearl Harbor, my grandmother had taken the, the three children back to the old village in Japan. I' ; ve heard a couple of different versions of this. I thought they were just to visit family, but they were there a number of months so-- I, I don' ; t know if you know some people had an inkling that there would be trouble ahead so, I thought you know this would have been a very, you know difficult decision but, you know to, t-to split up the family. But Grandmother, you know, took the three children you know back to Japan, and Grandfather stayed in Los Angeles. I think they were living in Santa Monica at the time but his business was in Los Angeles. You know, to continue you know minding his business. And then you know Pearl Harbor was struck and that pretty much closed the Pacific and, and so the family was separated for you know those years of the, of the war. EL: And then what happened to your grandfather? EK: Well Grandfather would' ; ve had to liquidate the business he didn' ; t say if he got much money for that, but he ended up in Manzanar, which is in the s-, you know, southern part of California. And I guess a lot of people from the Los Angeles-Seattle area were put into that particular camp. You know there were, you know I guess 10 camps altogether. So, he was pretty much there during, you know, for the duration. EL: Is that, a period of his life that he talked about much when you were growing up? EK: Uh, just a few stories, I knew that he had learned woodworking there, since the um... I, I guess the folks were saying, you know the men were saying, " ; Well since we' ; re going to have to be here, you know, is there something that we could learn, and something that would be useful?" ; And so a woodshop was set up for them, and, and I' ; ve got a picture of my grandfather, you know, learning wood- woodworking. Because I think this was something different that he had not had much exposure to and this is a-- (grabs photograph) a photograph that always hung in his workshop. (*Refers to off camera) Do you have that Maria? So you know the men are standing in front of various machines, about a dozen of them and actually, I r-- this, here' ; s my grandfather here. And this man here standing right next to him I believe that' ; s Mr. Kondo who was a family friend whom we knew in Chicago. So you know this is in California so a number of the, the people would have traveled Eastward after, after the war. EL: Do you know if during that time while he was incarcerated and his wife and children were in Japan, were they able to communicate with each other at all? EK: They w-, yeah they, they were able to write letters, and, and I have a few of those letters. And, and you know some of those are, you know have black marks on there. And they had been opened, and there would be a sticker on the envelope saying censored by you know, the, the war department and so-- You know, any correspondence going back and forth you know would be looked at, you know, by the government. EL: And then eventually, as he left Manzanar, do you know when and how he left? EK: He left a few months before war' ; s end, and I guess they were sp-- People who were given special grants to, to leave the camp. And-- as long as they would be going East rather than, you know to, you know t-to the West. So, so he chose Chicago, I don' ; t know why Chicago, but there was a, a Japanese Americans living there then. And so you know they may, they may have suggested that he come there. And so he had to start over again, and there was a, a man named Mr. Okuhara who, I believe worked with him at the um, at the uh, the farmers market in Santa Monica. Where-- --And so these two men got together and pooled their money, and they were able to buy an apartment building. And you know, this would have been important for Japanese Americans because they were coming displaced, and they were coming East and they needed a place to stay and they were still, you know they were you know suffering some discrimination. So this would have been a safe place for them to have an apartment. And then my grandfather, you know this became his second career, becoming a landlord. So he had this building-- So in 1955 when, you know my family, you know came to Chicago he was living on LaSalle Street and that was another building that he had bought. So at this point he had one, and he had one on his ow-- by himself, and then you know the others he, you know he half-owned with Mr. Okuhara. EL: Do you know the locations, or the addresses of those properties? EK: The um, well, yeah when my, when my grandfather first came to Chicago, he was living in apartments on the Southside, and that was an enclave of Japanese Americans living there. But then the area that we you know, call Little Tokyo at the time was centered around like Clark Street and Division, and so his first building you know with Mr. Okuhara was like I want to say about 1200 North on Clark Street. And then the, the building that, that he lived in was at 1244 LaSalle Street so that would have been just a little North of Division. EL: Thank you. So let' ; s shift over to Japan for a little bit, EK: Mhmm EL: And, how much do you know about your grandmother' ; s experience with her children during the war? EK: The, well there was suffering there in, in Japan. You know Japan had started this thing and they thought they would win it but you know-- Well you know, hindsight being 20-20 how could, you know how could a small country like Japan compete against the United States with you know, all the manpower and, and, and all the resources that it had. And if you, you know, anger a, a country like that oh boy you know you' ; re really in for it. But the Japanese government, you know the Japanese people fought the best they could. So they continued farming, and luckily they were in a farming area as opposed to the cities. Now the people in the cities, you know they didn' ; t grow their own food so they were quite dependent on, on the government or you know on, on capitalism to have any, even, you know things to eat. So anyway, the farmers were a little bit luckier in that, you know they were able to grow their own food, although you know the problem was is that the Japanese government would confiscate the rice that, they that they grew. And, and then rice would be rationed back to them. Now, you know Japanese love fresh rice and especially farmers, and, and the rice that would be rationed back to them would be you know, old rice. So you know, they were, you know growing a new rice and then having that taken away from them. And then you know, they get old rice back. And then you know there would be relatives coming from the cities, and they would expect to be you know entertained and fed. And, then, you know before they left back into the city they would say, " ; Oh, oh by the way you know our family in, back in the city, you know we' ; re, we' ; re very hungry. Could you, you know, could you gift us with some food?" ; And then, you know the, the, the uncle would you know produce a big wrapping sack, you know furoshiki cloth and of course the family would have to you know put food in there and then he would tie it up and then thank them very much and then he' ; d go back to the city. And, you know, there was a lot of suffering on that side. I had known, I had known Iva Toguri who had, had troubles in, in Tokyo. And, and I could see how people in the cities would, you know would be very much, you know in duress because of lack of food and you know, and, and maybe the lack of support of the families close by. EL: How old were the children at that point in time, do you know roughly? EK: They were grade school, my, my mother would have been in high school and, and what' ; s, what' ; s hard for the, that the kids, is that now they' ; re American citizens right because they' ; re born in, in America. And so they would be singled out as Americans, and you know as being part of the enemy. Now my, let' ; s see my, my mother would be in high school, and, and-- You know and when they started school in Japan and they had to go, you know go to school, they would have been put back a grade or two because their Japanese and their, their writing would not be up to, up to par with their, with their age group. And so that, that must have been difficult for them too. EL: Did they talk about that much? EK: No, but I' ; ve seen photographs of them. And, oh I don' ; t know if, they, they, they, you know these old black-and-white photographs they look sad. (laughs) You know it, it, they to contrast that with the photographs of them taken in, in Santa Monica in Los Angeles when they were doing, you know when they, when they were prospering, you know in standing in front of their car, you know in nice clothing, smiling. And then you know a photograph that I, you know that I might see, in Ja-- you know from th-- of them in Japan, in their country clothes. And you know, these, these photographs would have been um, you know rather expensive to have so they were-- There' ; s not that many of them but, you know, it, it looks, it looks, it looks hard. EL: And, and then what happened as the war came to an end, to the piece of the family that was in Japan? EK: Well, at war' ; s end of course you know Grandmother would want to bring the family back together again. So she made arrangements to, you know to, to, to go back. But it turns out that my, you know their, their oldest daughter had voted in a Japanese election, and-- And this was new, you know to, for, for a woman to be able to vote in a Japanese election and it would have been the influence of the, of the U.S. occupying forces. And so when, women were allowed to vote there was a lot of excitement, you know and, and it could be that my, that my mother was kind of caught up in that excitement and she unwittingly voted. Now, what she didn' ; t know was that as a U.S. citizen she should not have voted in a Japanese election. So, you know, when the government found out that she had done this, well then she was barred from going back to the U.S. So, so, so what could Grandmother do? You know what could her mother do? So she sent the sons back, and she had to stay back to be with her daughter. And, well, now she would have been about 18 or so, so she would have been a marriageable age. So that would have been the solution, so she, she cast her net to find an eligible young man to marry her. Now that' ; s difficult, ' ; cause after the war there' ; s so many, so many young men were killed. And um-- But what happened coincidentally with the man who would become my father, he had been fighting in Sumatra and he was a, a Signal Corpsman for the Imperial Army which meant that he would not be in, in the front lines. He would have been b-behind the front lines and the Signal Corpsman were very valued because, you know without them you, you can' ; t send radio transmissions and, and such. And he especially knew the codes you know he knew the Morse codes and the encryption codes for the transmissions so-- He told me afterwards that well you know there was some suff- there was suffering of course in, in, all the, the Japanese units, but he said luckily he didn' ; t get the worst of it. He was taken prisoner by the, by the British forces at the war' ; s end, and what I found out later is that he was stuck in Sumatra for two years even after the war. The Japanese government could not, you know they didn' ; t have the resources to bring back you know to repatriate their soldiers that were stranded you know in these various places so-- So about two years later they finally you know got a ship-- [recording paused and restarted] EL: Okay so let' ; s pick back up with after the war, and your grandmother seeking a suitable husband for her daughter who couldn' ; t return to the United States. EK: Yeah, that' ; s right my, yeah my mother had voted in an election and, and that caused her to be barred from returning to the United States to rejoin her, her father. So, so my grandmother, or her mother would have to-- So she decided that she would have to find a, a suitable husband for her daughter so that she herself could return back to the United States so-- So she must have contacted all the people that she knew in the area, you know could there be a uh, you know for a, a suitable young man. And of course this was difficult right after the war because so many young men had been killed, but what had happened with my, with the man who would become my father, he had been fighting in Sumatra you know as a Signal Corpsman and-- But then at the, at war' ; s end, they surrendered to the British forces there, but the Japanese government could not repatriate the stranded soldiers and so they had to bide their time there for, oh maybe a couple of years. And finally, a ship was sent to, to bring them back to Japan. So you know he goes back to Tokyo where he had, had a job, but Tokyo had been bombed out so then he went back to the old village. Now his old village was a neighboring village to where my grandfather' ; s home was. So he, so, so when he returned, it was a-- It was the match that my, you know that, that my grandmother was looking for. And so, what' ; s key here is that my father was the second born son of his family. Now the first born son you know his older brother, would have the, he would inherit the farm so he would inherit you know the, the fortune of the family you know, a-- but also you know would be the, the responsibility of taking care of the elderly parents. But then that left the second born son to seek his own fortune and to make his own way in the world. So this was advantageous for him too, in that you know he had very little but the, but the, the bargain that was struck was that he would now you know, marry the eldest daughter, I mean the, the oldest child, the, the daughter. But you know she was the eldest child, but then he would assume the position of the eldest son of the family. And he would change his name, he would change his name from Mochizuki, which was his name, to Koizumi. And, and then he and his new wife would move into the, the farmhouse and start a life there. And he didn' ; t know that much about farming, so he had to learn and the Koizumi clan helped them, you know learn about farming, and he worked hard, and, and then the, and then they started having children. My older sister June was born, she was named Harumi at the time, you know she took on the name June afterwards so, probably because she was born in June. And then I came along, my name was Shinichi, I didn' ; t take on Edward until we came to America, and then Michiko was the youngest and her name you know would be Grace. And so you know we lived in, and so I grew up on a farm and it was actually you know rather idyllic I thought you know we just play in the fields and the streams and there wasn' ; t, you know we were too young for chores. You know that would come later I suppose. But then, the U.S. government relented and, and there were a number of I think Japanese Americans who had lost their way back to you know Japane-- I mean American citizen Japanese people who lost their way, not being able to you know go back to America. And so a lot of these people were then allowed to come back. And so this would have been 1955 that you know my parents affairs were cleared up and, and then we all came. You know for, for my father that must have been you know quite, quite a challenge because he didn' ; t speak English, and you know truthfully you never did learn English that well. But you know, he was able to do well in this country and, and, an-and I think it was a, I think was a good bargain that he had struck and it was actually a, a good marriage. And you know they, they, they stayed together until my mother died at 85. And he would continue on till ninety-- till 98-- Anyway-- EL: Do you remember, you were quite a young child when you left Japan and came to the United States, do you remember how you felt at that age? EK: Um, I think I must have been totally clueless. (laughs) Because, you know it seemed like one day I was playing with my, with my cousins and I must not have been-- I, I don' ; t remember people bustling around, packing things and my, my older sister June was a year-and-a-half older, remembers that, you know there was a lot of sadness but... I was a little boy, I was 4 and I just remember being packed into a car and that was, that was a new experience for me being packed in a car. And I was you know, looking at the car and people were saying goodbyes I suppose, and, and then the next thing I know you know we' ; re in, we' ; re being taken to Tokyo. And I remember being on the tarmac of the airport, seeing the big engines of the, of the plane that we were going to take off in, you know revving up and the smoke coming out and I was just fascinated by that. But the thought that you know, I might not see you know, my, my, the family members that we left in Chic-- in, in Japan that did not occur to me. And so I think I just took things as they came. EL: What are some of your strongest memories of that childhood on the farm? EK: I th-- I think a lot of people have asked me you know, what do I remember? And for, you know I think for kids who have, you know been in the same house for their entire childhood you know it might be a, a big blur but you know there was quite a difference between you know the, the mountain valley in Japan, you know to Chicago so I do remember a lot of things. I think the earliest memory was me laying you know on the tatami, looking up at the ceiling, and there was a skylight and it was raining. And I hear the sound of the, the rain falling on the tin roof. We had a tin roof on our farmhouse, you know a lot of the houses along there had, had thatched roofs. And so after a big rain you know I would see the, the men on ladders you know trying to fix the, you know the holes, you know rearrange the thatch you know where the water had gotten in. I remember my parents taking us kids across a rickety bridge to the mountains, you know to collect mushrooms and to, you know we had a field of um-- I think we had a stand of bamboo there too. And my father would j-- I was too small you know to walk, so he would just throw me into a basket that he had on his back. So I would ride like that. My older sister, to this day she has a terrible-- She' ; s, she' ; s truly quite frightened by heights. And that was because you know she had to walk on the, the suspension bridge. And you know a number of the boards of the suspension bridge were broken so you know you could see the water rushing underneath and so she had to hop from board-to-board you know, you know, with my, taking my, my mother' ; s hand of course but-- I' ; m sure that early experience just, just terrorized her to heights. I remember playing with my cousins, you know in the farms playing with crabs that were you know in the, in the riverbeds. Well, you know it was good times I thought. EL: And then what do you remember about your arrival here in Chicago? Where did you live initially? EK: So we, our, our plane touched down in Midway, Midway you know O' ; Hare was not built yet. And so Midway at the, you know in the 50s and 60s was known as the busiest airport you know in the world. And, you know which is kind of funny you know ' ; cause we think of Midway as kind of a, a postage stamp airplan-- airport in the middle of the, you know of the city right now. But, so you know we landed, and, and this would have been a four-engine Constellation you know airplane you know. So you know a big plane that would, you know drone on and on and on. I remember the, the trip across the Pacific was just ocean and ocean and then all of a sudden, well actually we touched down in San Francisco. And, and I don' ; t remember the layover I, I remember having ice cream for the first time. And then we got on another airplane, I think the first one was Pan Am the second was Northwest Orient and, and then we came to, to Chicago. My grandfather picked us up, and he drove a Chevy Station Wagon, 1955 Bel Air. And it was, I think it was brand new at the time, so I was quite, you know quite impressed that you know that, that grandfather had, had his own car. So then he brought us to the apartment building at 1244 LaSalle Street, and the first few nights you know we stayed in their, in their apartment, it was pretty cramped. But then, my grandfather opened up a unit for us in an adjoining-- There were, there were these two buildings that were joined together through a hallway. And so we had a unit in, in that, in the next building and so, you know we started school at that point, you know living there. And you know we didn' ; t move to another building at 1332 till I think till I was seven or so. And that was an interesting building, it had been a converted mansion. But you know, during the war, there was a housing shortage so a lot of these buildings, a lot of these single-family buildings had been chopped up into small rooming-- rooming apartments. And so this is what happened to this building you know when my grandfather bought it. And it was a rambling old house and it must have been quite handsome at the time. But you know there was a Japanese person living in the parlor and then a person living across in the, you know maybe it may have been the, the drawing room. And then another person living you know in another, a room behind that. Now we had like four rooms in the back of the building and we also had a yard so you know it was lucky for us kids that we had a yard. But there were you know, there were units in the basement next to the coal room. There was, I remember a Mexican man lived there and he would have friends over, and he would invite me down, down there. You know they played the, you know they played guitar and sing and it was y' ; know quite a nice time. There were people on the second and the third floor, the third floor would have been maid' ; s quarters at one point, but there were units up there and people were living there. It was quite a lively, it was quite a lively building. I remember an old fellow named the Mr. Papan, was a Hungarian man he wanted to talk with his brother in, back in the old country. So the phone was in the, in the hallway just outside our bedroom and he was hard of hearing, and his brother was very hard of hearing, and so they would talk for about an hour in, in Hungarian, and we didn' ; t understand what he was saying but it was very loud. (laughs) And that was kind of like the childhood we had. EL: In a building like that where it was at one time a single-family home, a, a mansion chopped up into smaller units, how, how did the kitchen facilities and the bathroom facilities work were those all shared? EK: What had happened with this building was that you know there, there would be these rooms but then another wall would be erected a few feet away from one wall and then archways cut into the wall, and then this became a hallway, and then there was a bathroom at the end of the hall, so each of the floors had-- You know all the tenants of a floor would share a bathroom. And of course if the bathroom here on the first floor was, was busy, well then you could run upstairs and you know use an-another bathroom. And of course you know, the, the, the, the tub would be there too, so you didn' ; t really want to hog all the time you know taking a leisurely bath when other people wanted to use the bathroom or wanted to take a bath. There would have been a refrigerator in the middle of the hallway for the people of that floor to use. You know, which, which made for some interesting times because there was a fellow who had bought a dozen eggs, and the, the eggs were missing. And so he started knocking on the doors of his neighbors and say " ; You know, have you seen my eggs?" ; and the fella came to the door and he had a skillet with fried eggs in it. And he says " ; Oh, hello?" ; (laughs) Well, he found out where his eggs went. Cooking facilities you asked, would have been a hot plate. Would have been a gas hot plate, which would have been like a cast-iron arrangement where there' ; d be two burners you know on a grate. And that would be on top of a t-- on the top of a table. And a lot of these rooms would be piped for a sink so you know you' ; re pretty well complete except for the bathroom and, and the refrigerator you know within your room. And so you know we call these single room occupancy you know hotels I guess. EL: And your parents raised you and your siblings in that arrangement until approximately what age? EK: Well you know, we, we actually had a kitchen, and so my mother had her own stove and refrigerator, and so I guess we were lucky. EL: And it sounds like that building in particular had quite a diverse occupancy. EK: Yes. EL: So outside of your, your home life, did your family socialize with a lot of other Japanese or Japanese American families? EK: Yeah, we were, we were members of the Nichiren Buddhist Church, so that would have been o-our family' ; s--well, our family' ; s social life. I didn' ; t-- my sisters and I didn' ; t have a lot of American friends outside the family and so we went to Sunday school with the other you know, Japanese kids and so-- You know so that was Sun- that was Sundays. I don' ; t recall you know birthday parties and that sort of stuff you know we didn' ; t do very much of that. Every so often my parents' ; friends would come over and, and they would visit. You know not a lot of partying, my parents were not that, you know big on parties. EL: What kind of work did your parents do? EK: Well, my mother was a you know mother and housewife of course. My father, well he would have to do something to support the family, and so there was a company called the McClurg Company and I didn' ; t really-- you know it' ; s ' ; cause we didn' ; t know the word McClurg because my father always pronounced it " ; Ma-ku-ra-gu" ; . So he went to " ; Makuragu" ; company and what they did was, it was, it was a mail-order house. And so the foreman there I believe was Japanese so-- And the bosses were very happy to have Japanese men. I don' ; t know if too many women worked there, but I never asked but you know the Japanese workers were studious, and they, and they worked hard. So-- and you know, and so they were happy to employ Japanese. And so, so my father would pack a lunch, and uh- well actually my mother would pack his lunch. My mother would pack a lot of lunches for us kids too when we started going to school. So he would go to work on the bus, and, and hi- and his job would be to take the merchandise that was put on a tray and then he would wrap them in the newspapers, put them in a box, and, you know and then get the next tray and pack that. And for that he got $0.95 an hour. And that was, you know that went on for a little while, and then, and then he happily said, " ; Oh I just got a raise, I' ; m now getting a dollar an hour!" ; And so-- But, there was an opportunity for him to learn a skill, and, and so he became a silkscreen printer. And silkscreen printing, you know people think of silkscreen printing for artwork, but back then silkscreen printing could be used for making nameplates, and for making printer circuit boards. And, and that was pretty precise work and my father was very good at, at precise things he had very you know, skilled hands. So he would spend his days you know taking-- the boards that, that printer circuit boards started out as, you know there would be a piece of fiberglass or a piece of plastic and then there would be copper either one-sided or two-sided, and then that would be put down on a board and then the s-silkscreen will be laid on top and the silkscreen would have a pattern on it and then we' ; d take a, a black ink and then with a rubber squeegee, squeegee that pattern onto the, the copper clad. And then the copper clad board would be baked and then put into acid, and then the, the parts that did not have the, the black resist ink on it would be eaten away. And then the boards would be chopped into squares, and then all the holes would be drilled, and then that would become you know, the, the board for which you know electrical components would be soldered on. So this was actually a very good skill for him to have and he was able to do that until he retired at the age of 65. And then by this time, shortly afterwards, you know the, the company that, that he had worked for all these many years, went out of business because so much of the, you know so much of this assembly work was being you know, you know shipped off overseas. But he was lucky in that, he, he-- maybe just a dozen other employees of that company qualified for a pension. You know for, you know, having worked for that long. And so the pension wasn' ; t that much, but it was a couple hundred dollars a month, but he lived till 98. So from sixty, from si- age 65 to 98, he collected that 200, 250 dollars a month, and you know he was very well pleased for that. EL: So during that period as your parents were establishing themselves, what was the experience like for you as, as children? Did you speak English when you arrived here? EK: No we spoke very little (laughs) we spoke no English at all. Um, well after we got to America and this would have been in October of ' ; 55 I would have started, I think I started the next year, probably spring. Without knowing any English at all. And so everything was just, just confusing. I didn' ; t know what people were saying. I didn' ; t know what I was supposed to do. All, all I knew was I was really good at making things out of clay. You know one time my, my, my teacher gave me a pencil because I had made a really nice clay little car. First grade though, there was a Japanese female teacher named Mrs. Wada. And so that helped, but you know, I remember spending a lot of time sitting next to her while she played piano crying ' ; cause I didn' ; t know what was going on. I think you know, it, it was tough. For, I think it was tough for, I think it was tougher for my older sister ' ; cause she went right into first grade you know she didn' ; t have kindergarten. But I think you know two or three years later we were speaking English and being able to write and, and actually I think we were doing actually better than you know some of the other immigrant kids who were struggling with their English. And we, we actually did very well in school after that. EL: Are there particular places, or people, or maybe annual events from your childhood that really stick out in your memory? EK: Well Grandfather would take us out to, well he, you know he, I think my grandparents were still country you know people at heart. So every so often he would pack us up in, in his station wagon. And of course you know everybody is sitting and me and Mr. Kondo from, you know from, from before. We would be laying on our backs in the back of the station wagon you know while the rest of the family was sitting in front kind of cramped up. And then he would take us to, to the Indiana area, kind of an undeveloped area because they loved mushrooms, and they loved picking ferns. There were these, these ferns that reminded them very much of the ones that grew in the mountainside of Japan. So then we would spend a little bit of time picking and filling the bags of the fern. And then my grandmother would bring them back and dry them and then she would, you know, put them in soup and, and then use them for cooking. So, so that was something that we looked forward to. My grandpa liked to go fishing, and actually he might have gotten this, the love of fishing from, from his time at, at Manzanar camp. I didn' ; t know this, but this was something of a thing that the men did at Manzanar, was they would sneak out at night, and they would have to avoid the searchlights and, and hide when the searchlights were you know circling around. But then they would find themselves to the stream and then they would, um, they would fish and then come back and so this was maybe a little bit of rebellion that they indulged themselves in. And, you know and luckily they didn' ; t get caught. So fishing was something that they liked to do. You know Grandmother was always, you know she was famous for her chicken teriyaki and so she' ; d always make a very nice picnic for us. And then there would be the, the holidays at the church, I was not a very good student of Buddhism, but you know when the holidays came along well you know I was very happy to eat the food and, and to do the dances and to celebrate, why not? (smiles) EL: You had mentioned earlier about your mother packing lunches for your dad and you as children. EK: Mhmm. EL: What kinds of food did she pack for you? EK: Well let' ; s see, well they were I guess what you' ; d call American lunches I suppose, it was, you know it was easy. It would be, you know for each and that would have been you know for Father and, and me and my sisters. It' ; d be you know in a brown sack, it would be a, a sandwich wrapped up in, in, in wax paper. It would be two slices of white bread with mayonnaise and either a slice you know, and only one slice of either bologna or, or ham or it might be cheese, but just one slice because you know of course you know she thought that well it comes in the package and its sliced so this one slice must be a, you know, must be a helping. And then there might be a piece of lettuce. And then there would be a, a fruit, it' ; d be a banana, or an apple, or an orange. And then if you' ; re lucky you know there might be a candy bar or a piece of cake or something like that. And so she must have made thousands of these lunches you know for, you know ' ; cause I, you know there were four, you know there were four kids and, you know and my father. EL: And at home for your family meals, what kind of food did you eat then? EK: Well, I think you know there was, there were like seven things that my mother made for dinner, and I can' ; t remember what they all were, I just remember that there was, one of the dishes was, it was a bell pepper that she would cook with ground be--beef inside. And that was probably my, I don' ; t know why I remember that one ' ; cause that was my least favorite dish. (laughs) There was always rice. You know e-, you know even if we had Thanksgiving and my grandmother put together a, a nice Thanksgiving feast with the turkey, and gravy, and mashed potatoes and all that there would have to be rice. You know of course you had to have rice. But back home, my mother would either fry chicken or, or pork. I remember she cooked pork, well you' ; re supposed to cook pork you know very much back in those days. And it would be, you know, as hard as cardboard but you know I liked meat so that was fine. EL: And what language did you speak at home? EK: You know we spoke Japanese early on, but little by little you know as, you know as us kids were getting more proficient with English and we were starting to speak English amongst ourselves and of course English you know at school with my friends. And my mother spoke English, because you know she, you know she was uh, she was born in America. You know we started you know, gradually losing our Japanese. The only time I would speak Japanese would be to our grandparents and to my-- our father and my mother of course and-- But little by little as we went along you know we, you know my Japanese is really terrible now. Although it' ; s probably better than my older sister' ; s, because my older sister moved to New York City, she became a doctor, and so she didn' ; t have much chance to practice her Japanese until-- you know unless you know the one week that she came back to Chicago to visit during the holidays. Yeah, you know I' ; m, I' ; m kind of sad about that, and we did go to Japanese school on Saturdays, but once again I was not a very good student of Japanese and, you know I' ; ve kind of lost that facility too. EL: Do you remember if your family ever frequented Japanese-owned stores or Japanese American owned stores? Grocery stores or-- EK: Uh, yes we did. You know we visited Toguri' ; s of course. You know if there were Japanese goods that you wanted to buy well that, you know Toguri' ; s was the place to go. I had briefly dated Patty, who was the, who was uh, Iva' ; s niece, I guess I' ; d call her Aunt Iva at the time. And then there was Aiko' ; s papers for origami papers. Umm but I guess we didn' ; t do that much shopping. No, we went to Star Market and you know for, for Japanese food, Toguri' ; s also. And it was a handful of other Japanese food markets on the North side of Chicago. And you know and little by little they, you know they either went farther north or they' ; d gone out of business. You know with Japanese kinda leaving you know the, the centralized area and you know marrying off and you know going away. I guess we never did have a, you know as closely knit an area like Chinatown you know the Chinese people there. But Little Tokyo kind of like fell apart at one point. EL: Did you have an awareness as you were growing up of, the history of incarceration of Japanese American people and then the resettlement history here as a child, is-- was it, were you even aware that there was this -- EK: I can' ; t say that I was aware. Every so often you know a-at church or you know I would hear adults talking about you know, about the early days and you know if, if a couple was asked you know, " ; Well, how did you meet?" ; well, quite often they would say, " ; We, we met at camp." ; And that word " ; Camp" ; it, it sounded kind of benign and you know maybe even fun who knows I don' ; t know what camp was. I hadn' ; t realized that camp was, you know, concentration camp. So those are things that the older people kind of shielded from us. And you know and, and I suppose we should be grateful for that, that you know we were kind of spared some of those details. EL: Was it, was it ever brought up in, in a school context? EK: Uh, I don' ; t remember. I don' ; t remember that subject coming up you know even in high school U.S. history. EL: And do you recall any incidents of bias or discrimination against you or your family members? EK: There might have been toward the, at the beginning because you know I would have been going to school in 1956 which was not that much removed from the end of the war. But, I think, I learned pretty early to keep my head down, and t-to stay away from the bullies. And, you know to make friends, and especially if you have you know big, tall, strong friends. That' ; s, that, that' ; s a good thing for a small person like myself. I can' ; t really say that I had suffered that greatly you know with discrimination and for that I' ; m grateful. EL: Could you maybe describe for me, what it was like being part of a Japanese American community in Chicago in the 60s, 70s, maybe even into the 80s? EK: I' ; m not so sure that I was that personally involved. I remember in high school a lot of... Well, I went to Lane Tech High School, and there were a lot of Japanese American kids there, you know boys, ' ; cause it was all boys then. And there were, you know there was this clique of Japanese American boys. I was not part of that. You know, not that I was not-- you know, that they were unfriendly to me or anything like that, but, I had gone out for ROTC, and you know, my friends were, you know, my, my fellow you know ROTC cadets. And so, I, I can' ; t say that I really palled around with Japanese Americans that much. There was a boy who lived in my neighborhood, and you know his father was a doctor. And, so I played with him. He was very good at chess. And, so David would beat me at chess, and then we' ; d go bowling and I would beat him in bowling. And so that was kind of like, you know the, the friendship that I had with him. EL: Did you belong to any, any clubs or social groups? EK: No, not really. I was too busy I guess being a student, yeah. EL: Was your identity something you thought about a whole lot as a teenager? EK: You know it' ; s funny because there' ; s you know, like I was talking about you know the, the boys at, at, in high school. Maybe they were more aware of being Japanese Americans. And, and these would have been boys who were born in America. Now, I was born in Japan, and so, I spent more of my effort trying to become more American. And so, I don' ; t know, I don' ; t know if I ever thought that much about being Japanese except for the fact that in the, in my core I am Japanese. You know I look Japanese. And you know maybe a lot of the, and, and, and, and I' ; m sure that I am, but you know I, I try to be, you know, more open, you know, to, to everybody. EK: As you entered into adulthood and now perhaps in retirement, looking back, do you think your relationship with your identity has changed over time? EL: I don' ; t know, I guess I' ; m always me. (laughs) I remember when I, when I, when I met my, when I met my, my fiancée' ; s parents. And we had gone to, they live in Holland, Michigan and my wife is half Dutch. When, I guess I was described to them previous, before you know I, I actually met them, you know, they, they learned that I was Japanese so they thought that I would be kind of a, a reserved, Japanese man. And then when I showed up and I was you know, talkative and friendly, they thought, " ; Oh, well Ed' ; s a regular guy!" ; And so, I thought that was good. So that-- we had a, we had a very wonderful relationship, you know, my, my in-laws and myself. I learned to come whenever we, we visited in, in their house in, in Michigan that I' ; ll bring a toolbox, because Carol' ; s dad was pretty hopeless with tools. But they would like, have a running list of things that was wrong with their house so that when I came, they said, " ; Okay, could you fix this thing here, and you could fix that thing there, and we' ; re trying to install this telephone there." ; And they, they, they kept me busy but you know I enjoyed, I enjoy doing these things and, and I loved them very much. EL: Could you explain a little bit maybe about how you came to have those types of skills? EK: I think maybe I, I, I had a, a natural interest in these things. You know if you go back to the, the farmhouse my, my father had the, the engine, the gas engine that, that ran the threshing machine. Now the threshing machine was a, kinda like a metal box that had these wire whisks and it had a big pulley on the side, and then the, the gas engine was put a few feet away from it with a big flat belt going back and forth. And you know, it was an open belt, and so I was warned to stay away from that, that looked pretty scary. But that was just fascinating to me you know, these mechanical things were just fascinating. And so, so when we, we moved to America, into that apartment building my grandfather had a, a workshop in the basement. And so anytime he forgot to padlock that door, I would be in there, and I' ; d be exploring and getting into his stuff. I would find a piece of wood and a saw and I' ; d start sawing and making things. I think, I remember making a yo-yo for myself. Duncan yo-yos were very popular, you know, in the 50s. So, you know I wouldn' ; t ask my parents to, to buy me a yo-yo, so I thought, " ; Well maybe I' ; ll make myself a yo-yo." ; So I took some wood, and my grandfather had a coping saw so I, I d-, I drew two circles on this piece of wood and with a coping saw you know I, I, I cut these two crude circles and then I took a hand drill. And you know, I, I knew enough not to use his power machines, and I would drill a hole in this disc, and a, you know, here, another hole there and then with a short little piece of dowel, I stuck these things together and wound the stri- string around her. And it made a very bad yo-yo, but I was proud of it and it kept me busy for that afternoon. And then later on, my grandfather would start showing me how to do these things, how to, how to make, you know how to nail things together, how to, how to varnish, how to stain. He had a pot of hide glue going on in, in a little gas stove that he had, and so he would liquefy the hide glue, and then he' ; d use that to, you know, to make the joints. And so you know I guess he would have been my first, my woodworking teacher. And then later on I had formal shop training at, at high school. I had wood shop, and electric shop. And, and I guess those were my best subjects. U.S. History was probably my worst. But that and drafting, I was able to make a life for myself, you know making things, drawing things. I always said, you know, " ; Anything I can draw, I could probably make." ; And, you know I became a model maker and, build things for photographers and for TV sets--um, TV production. And, later on, my, I, I went to the, I' ; d gone to the Institute of Design f- which is part of IIT [Illinois Institute of Technology] you know for, for college. And, after I was done with model making, they asked me, the school asked me to be a, be a shop teacher. So, so from about 2008 to 2018, for 10 years you know, I was a shop teacher. And, I found that very rewarding, you know teaching the kids how to, to make things. Because, young people today, you know they' ; re, they' ; re, maybe they' ; re wizzes at computers, but they haven' ; t had a whole lot of exposure to manual arts. And a lot of these kids that were at the, at college, you know they' ; d come from good, you know good, good families, you know their fathers were you know lawyers, and professionals, and you know doctors maybe, and, you know they, they didn' ; t have the advantage of having tradespeople in their, in their families I suppose. But, so, I was able to teach them how to use the machines and the tools. And, and whenever somebody, you know a young person makes something, you know they are just so proud, and you know I was very proud for them too. EL: Do you think there are any-- I' ; m wondering if there are lessons that you' ; ve drawn from your own experience, and your family' ; s experience of, of immigration and separation and incarceration, that you think have informed your approach to teaching? EK: Well the lessons that, that I appreciate now would be you know the hard work that, that my grandparents and parents had gone through to, you know to adapt themselves to this country, to make a life, and to, you know make it easier for our generation. I mean we got to go to college, you know, my, my sister, my older sister became a doctor. She' ; s a patho- pathologist in New York City and, soon to retire, at the age of 72. She should have retired earlier, but anyway. (laughs) And I got to go to college. You know, college you know allowed me to avoid Vietnam, and that would have been the war of my generation. And you know, my father suffered through his war, I' ; m very fortunate not to have suffered through my wa- you know through my era' ; s war. And my younger sister, went to the Art Institute and you know she got to pursue her creative life. Um-- You were asking about me teaching, I don' ; t know if, you know, I think maybe teaching was, is, it' ; s, it comes easily to me in that, I can see a process and I want to impart that process you know to my student. You know, let' ; s go about this in a practical manner. And, I, I guess I' ; m having a hard time answering that question that way. EL: I suppose what I' ; m wondering is, i- if over the many years that you have taught, have you encountered any students where maybe you were able to connect with them in a, in a particular way, perhaps because of your experiences in life, or, or your knowledge of what your family has experienced? EK: I, I don' ; t really know in that, you know the students that I had at The Institute of Design-- Now when I was going there it was, I, I did foundation year. But The Institute of Design became a school for, for a master' ; s program. So there was a, you know it' ; s not a, you know not freshmen, but these were graduate students going for a master' ; s in product design. And so you know they had already proven themselves as good students, and-- You know I' ; m sorry I' ; m m- kind of meandering here! (laughs) EL: That' ; s perfectly all right! I think, I' ; d like to wrap things up maybe with some, some broader questions, but before we do that, I' ; m curious, given that your grandfather was incarcerated, when the redress movement happened and Civil Liberties Act was passed, was he able to receive reparations? EK: Yes, he, yes he was. You know he was, he was, very happily, you know he very happily you know accepted his $20,000 check. But then the next sentence was, you know although he was happy to have it, I didn' ; t think that it was as important to him as you know being able to, to call the U.S. his home. I, I think he had adopted-- Well, he had gotten his U.S. citizenship, probably about 1954. So he had been a U.S. citizen for a long time and so he had, he had always considered the U.S. his home. And you know the, the, the money was nice, but you know luckily he was successful enough in that it wasn' ; t something that was you know, something they d- that was really you know necessary for him. EL: And when that all happened did you understand why it was happening, the significance of it? EK: Yeah, I was old enough to know. I was old enough at that point to know what had happened to, you know, Japanese Americans. EL: Did your grandfather ever express anger about what had been done to him? EK: I think by the time we came along, he had gotten some success you know in his second career, you know as, you know as renting, as a r- you know as a landlord renting to tenants. And, you know, buying buildings and taking care of them. So, you know, I' ; m, I' ; m sure he was bitter at the time, but I think by that time you know the grand--, you know, us grandchildren came along, he was too busy with his other things. And then, you know and then, he, and he, he retired comfortably. EL: And, do you think there are any behavioral patterns that you observed in your family that might have been attributed to the experiences of the war? Be that, incarceration in the U.S. or deprivations in Japan? EK I, I think it was actually more their adapti- you know, the, the, the fact that they were able to adapt to their surroundings and, and to make the best of it that allowed them to survive and you know actually get some benefit, whatever benefit that, you know, that they got from that experience. Um-- I, I don' ; t know if it affected them personally so much although you know they were very devoted to the Japanese American community and, and you know they were very active in the, the resettler movement. Actually, (laughs) I' ; ve always aft-, I' ; ve always, you know whenever my grandfather said, he, he wasn' ; t able to say resettler, it always came out, came out " ; re-se-tu-ra" ; . Because you know Rs and Ls are so difficult! But later in life about 1990, the Japanese government did award him you know with a, with a medal ; in fact I have it here. And I remember him, proudly wearing it, with a suit. And, and this was for his generosity, and his support of you know Japanese Americans, and also you know, the, the relationship that he had with, you know with, with Japan. And, so anyway, he was very, you know he was very proud to, to wear it. EL: Are there any questions that you wish now that you could ask of your parents, or your grandparents, or even your great-grandfather? EK: Oh gosh, all kinds of questions I suppose. (laughs) You know, how things actually were, and you know comings and goings and years. And, and you know what their early experiences would have been but, but you know as, as children we didn' ; t have these questions. And then now sadly you know everybody who knows the answers are gone. I- I guess, you know my s-, my sister June and myself, and we have a cousin Wayne, who was you know the, the son of, of Uncle Herb, you know my mother' ; s middle son uh-- m-middle brother. You know we have some questions about, about the family tree, and actually Wayne did a, a very large graphic you know as far as, as far back as he can go, you know with the various branches of the family, and he was quite involved with that. And, you know with mountain families in, in, in small communities, the, you know there' ; s been a number of times that, the, the, the Koizumi family and the Mochizuki family have gotten together. I have a cousin in Japan who' ; s also, who' ; s, who' ; s a Koizumi who had married to a Mochizuki. There' ; s, there' ; s not as many, you know people in you know, that you could, you know that might be marriageable at any particular time, so you did what you could. But people did survive and it' ; s just really quite amazing that they did. EL: And, what motivated you to participate in this oral history project? EK: There was a woman named Lourdes, and I met her at a screening of a movie at our local, in Oak Park' ; s library. The movie was called The Orange Story and it, it talks about this Japanese American grocery store owner who has to sell his grocery store you know at the, when he' ; s about to be relocated to a, to a camp. And it' ; s a short story about his life and you know, goes on to him, what happens to him. And afterwards, there was a, a few people who, who got up and spoke and Lourdes was one of them. And her mother was born in Manzanar Camp, and she talked about you know her mother' ; s experiences. Now, afterwards I had a chance to talk with her and, and we became friendly, and, and she connected us, she connected me to some people in, in Manzanar. And actually what was amazing is that the park ranger that she connected me to was a woman named Rose Masters. It turned out that one of my students was a, was a best friend of hers. I thought Rose might have been an older woman but no Rose is a, a woman in her late twenties, and you know, as are you know, my students. So, it was quite amazing when one of my students came into my shop and said, " ; Oh Ed! You know Rose, she' ; s my best friend." ; And I thought, " ; Well that was a very interesting story, you know these you know six degrees of separation." ; And, what we were talking about? (laughs) EL: Oh, what motivated you to participate in our oral history, oral history project? EK: Oh, right, so anyway, Lourdes asked, told me that this oral history project was, was going on with the, with the Japanese American Service Committee and would I participate? And I usually try to stay away from things like this, but I thought I should, I should do this. You know I should honor my grandfather because you know he and Grandmother worked so hard to make a good life for, you know for, for his grandchildren and family and so that' ; s why I' ; m here. EL: Well we' ; re very grateful for your participation. So, to close us out here, I' ; d love to know what you would most like for younger generations to know about the experiences of you and, and your family. EK: I think it' ; s a story about immigration, that, that America should be a welcoming country. America needs young blood, you know it needs people who are motivated enough to leave their own countries. You know whether it' ; s the, you know the pull of the, the opportunities available in the, in the U.S., you know or the push of bad things happening in their country, they have the motivations to, to come to this country. And they bring resources and you know, their knowledge and their willingness to work and to, to be good citizens. And you know we should be welcoming of them rather than turning them away and, and that would be, you know, that would be my thought. EL: Thank you very much, and thank you for participating in our project. EK: (laughs) Okay, you' ; re quite welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KoizumiEdward20210512.xml KoizumiEdward20210512.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
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Koizumi, Edward (5/12/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Edward Shinichi Koizumi is a shin-issei born in 1950 in Nambu, Yamanashi, Japan. Edward’s maternal grandmother and grandfather were separated during World War II, as Edward’s grandmother was traveling with her children to visit family in Japan at the time of Pearl Harbor. As a result, while Edward’s maternal grandfather was incarcerated at Manzanar, his family was unable to leave Japan. After the war, Edward’s mother, although she was an American citizen, was unable to return to the United States as she voted in a Japanese election. Edward and his siblings spent their early childhood on his family’s farm in Japan, but eventually, when Edward was four years old, his mother was allowed to move back to the United States. Edward’s family packed up, and moved to join his mother’s family in Chicago. Having a natural curiosity and talent for building and design, after graduating high school, he attended the Institute of Design at the Illinois Institute of Technology and worked as a model maker, building models for photographers and TV production. Given his personal experiences and those of his family, he hopes that others can learn from these experiences and foster an open-minded society where immigration and differences are welcome and celebrated.
Date
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2021-05-12
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video
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Series: Oral History Project
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kojima, Aiko
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/18/2018 Kojima, Aiko (10/18/2018, 11/29/18) 0:53:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kojima, Aiko Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/601272551/90864233db Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601272551?h=90864233db" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 And I' ; ll just start with, uh, a little s- Oh, shoot. With a little slating. Um, we can go ahead and get started there. Aiko Kojima: 00:15 So have you done many of the, uh, interviews? AT: 00:19 Yeah, um, we are somewhere between, um, Alphawood and here we' ; re at, um, 80? Around 80. In the ballpark. AK: 00:34 Oh ok. AT: 00:34 Um, so we' ; ve been lucky to talk, er, I' ; ve been really lucky to talk to quite a few people. Um, I feel spoiled, but I get to call this my job and I' ; m just hearing about people' ; s lives. Okay. Um, we should be good to start. Okay. This is an interview with Aiko Kojima as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago, Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on October 18th, 2018 at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Aiko Kojima is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name? AK: 01:45 Uh, my full name is [Carolyn?] Aiko Kojima. AT: 01:49 And where and when were you born? AK: 01:52 Um, I was born in Kalamazoo, Michigan, August 10th, 1944. AT: 02:01 I' ; m sorry, 19... AK: 02:01 ' ; 44. AT: 02:02 ' ; 44. And, um, to start, can you, uh, just tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe where they were born and, AK: 02:18 Um, well my real father was born in Hawaii, Honolulu, Hawaii, and then my mother was born in Greeley, Colorado. AT: 02:31 Uh, when, and when did your, did your father move from Hawaii to the States? AK: 02:38 Yeah, yeah. I' ; m trying to think. Probably in, probably 1943 or so, somewhere around there. I' ; m not sure. Cause, uh, uh, they were, uh, divorced a long time ago, so you know, before. So, um, and he, I believe, uh, relocated to Los Angeles and, uh, uh, my mother came to Chicago then. AT: 03:18 So how, how did your parents meet or where? AK: 03:23 Um, I believe, well, my parents, uh, met in camp and, um, um, AT: 03:37 What camp was that? AK: 03:38 Manzanar. Cause she was in Manzanar. AT: 03:41 And so would I have that right that, um, before the war started, your dad moved to LA and then that' ; s how he was put into Manzanar? AK: 03:53 Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, um, as far as your, your parents' ; backgrounds, um, do you know like, uh, what they did for a living or what kind of, where their families were from or what their story was? AT: 04:14 Um, I really don' ; t have too much information about, uh, like my father or whatever. But, um, with my mother, her parents were farmers. They lived in Greeley, Colorado, and, um, so her mother died when she was eight, and then, uh, her father, uh, became sick and he knew he was dying. So when she was believed 13 was when he took her to LA to live with, uh, uh, a couple who became her foster parents. And, um, I don' ; t know, um, who they were or anything like that. So, but I believe they had, they had a, uh, a nursery. And so she used to work in the nursery. AK: 05:09 Did she have siblings? AK: 05:11 She had, um, there were three siblings in Japan. And so that' ; s why the father went back to Japan to see his three oldest daughters. And then, um, she had, }" ; uh, there were five here, born in Colorado. And all of the, no, let' ; s see. Um, the oldest sister, uh, died in childbirth, and she was, I believe 27, but the, then there were two, um, brothers and they died when they were children. Uh, one of, uh, I think lead poisoning and the other, uh, kidney failure or something. But, and, um, AT: 05:58 So the family that your mother moved with, were they Japanese? AK: 06:05 Yes, yes. But, you know, I, she never, uh, well if she did, I don' ; t remember, uh, what their, their names were or anything. Um, but I know that they separated and so her foster father moved to, um, Mesa, Arizona and, but I don' ; t know what happened to, you know, her foster mother. AT: 06:30 Mmm. So as far as, um, like wartime and going to camp, can you tell me what you know about how your, um, AK: 06:46 My mother really, uh, didn' ; t talk about, uh, camp. So she, let' ; s see, she was about 18, I believe. Wait, yeah. Maybe she was older. She could have been 20, but anyway, cause she got out when she was, uh, she was only there for a couple of years, I believe. AT: 07:13 In camp? AK: 07:13 Yeah. And, um, because she was able to get the family, a family to sponsor her. And, um, so she left there I think in like, uh, she, I think she left camp around, uh, the end of ' ; 43 or the beginning of ' ; 44. AT: 07:37 And, um, so what you, what you do know about your mom' ; s or your family' ; s experience in camp? Is that from what she' ; s told you or how, where did you get this information? AK: 08:01 Well, from her, I mean, what she said and, um, she, I, from what I understand, I mean, she was very quiet, so she, uh, she didn' ; t go to dances and things like that, cause I believe they had dances and, um, activities, you know, like that. But, uh, so she never really said too much about it. Um, she came to Chicago and, uh, and that, you know, her, my stepfather. And, um, AT: 08:44 So, next can we, can you go into a little bit more about, uh, so your, your mom left camp, uh, in ' ; 43 or ' ; 40, and she was sponsored. Um, well I guess first just out of curiosity, were there any like, other stories or memories or anything else that you really heard about her particular experiences in camp? AK: 09:09 No. Sorry to say no. AT: 09:14 Um, then so how about when she, when she moved, she was sponsored by a family in Kalamazoo? AK: 09:21 Right then. Um, so we stayed there for about a year and then came here to Chicago and uh, trying to think, um, and she lived with my aunt and uncle for, uh, probably about a year or so. AT: 09:50 Where in Chicago or? AK: 09:53 Yeah. Um, you know, I can' ; t, I don' ; t know exactly where it was the North side of Chicago. Yeah, I' ; d had to be the North side of Chicago, I think. But. AT: 10:09 Did your father go to Kalamazoo as well? AK: 10:12 No. No. AT: 10:15 Do you know where he went? AK: 10:18 Uh, I believe you, he went to LA then, so. AT: 10:24 And so when your mom came to Kalamazoo, she was staying with a family and so was she doing kind of like domestic labor or, uh, AK: 10:39 Yeah, that and she was like babysitting for the family. AT: 10:44 And so it must, she must have been doing that maybe when she was pregnant with you. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you were born in ' ; 44. AK: 10:56 Right. AT: 10:58 Um, and then, so then she, she knew about family staying in Chicago. Is that right? AK: 11:08 Right. Yeah, that would' ; ve been my, my cousins. AT: 11:15 And your aunt and uncle. And so where, uh, when would that have been, do you think that you moved to Chicago? AK: 11:30 Um, probably, let' ; s see. It had to have been in ' ; 45, I think. ' ; 45, ' ; 46. AT: 11:44 And so where are you in the first memories? AK: 11:47 Uh, well I remember living on the South side, but, we were in a basement apartment. Um, because, let' ; s see, um, the grammar school then, uh, I went to kindergarten in, at Oakenwald and, um, and then after that we moved, uh, to the North side. I think we must' ; ve moved to the projects in, in, I' ; m trying to think. We moved to the projects in 1950 and, um, we were on the South side because, um, it must, you know, I don' ; t know exactly how. AT: 12:54 I understand this was a long time ago. AK: 12:58 I' ; m trying to figure right. Cause we were on the South side and then we moved to the North side. AT: 13:04 Um, and when you' ; re on the South side, it was just you and your mom? AK: 13:10 No, uh, my stepfather was there too, so. AT: 13:15 Um, and where did she meet your stepfather? AK: 13:19 Uh, Edgewater beach hotel. Cause, uh, he worked in the kitchen and she did too. And my uncle had worked in the kitchen. AT: 13:28 Is that how she had got the job through your uncle? AK: 13:31 Yeah. AT: 13:32 And so what, what kind of work was she doing there? AK: 13:36 Uh, um, you know, I really don' ; t, uh, know what kind of work other than either the kitchen or the way she was in housekeeping. Um, yeah, that' ; s all that, um. Speaker 2: 13:51 So it sounds like that might' ; ve been her first job that she took in Chicago. AK: 14:00 Right, right, AT: 14:02 And so do you think that would have been while you were living on the South side or. AK: 14:13 I, yeah, I think, uh, because we did start from the South side and then, uh, We lived in it, an apartment, uh, around Chicago and Clark area before moving to the, to Cabrini Green. AT: 14:35 Do you have, um, like any memories of what the neighborhood was like or like what, what Oakenwald was like when you were a kid? I again, AK: 14:46 No. AT: 14:46 It' ; s asking a lot. AK: 14:47 All I can, all I can remember, Um, cause there was, uh, another, uh, Japanese family, I think one or two Japanese families that we knew then. And um, the one family had, uh, an older daughter. And so she would walk me to school that, you know, other than that, no, cause it was, we weren' ; t there that long, so, um, yeah, sorry. AT: 15:23 No, no, no, no. Um, again, this big exercise of memory on this goes back a long time ago. Um, so, so you had been living on the South side and your, your mom had, and you had cousins and an aunt and uncles. How many cousins did you have that were here, AK: 15:48 Uh, two, two. AT: 15:51 Did you spend a bit of time with them? AK: 15:54 Uh, just, uh, it was rare, you know, we would just see each other every once in awhile, uh, because they were in the North side. Yeah. And, um, and then we didn' ; t have a car or anything. So, um, and then plus I think when we moved into the projects, uh, I don' ; t know how often they came down there or no, I don' ; t think they really, you know, particularly cared to come down into the projects and all. AT: 16:33 So, um, so just as far, far as timeline goes, you and your mom were on the South side and you went to Oakenwald for kindergarten. Um, and then was it from there that you moved? Um, further up North? AK: 16:53 Right, right. AT: 16:54 Okay. Um, AK: 16:56 Cause I, I, I know that, I think my first and second grade, this was, um, when we moved into, into the projects because I went to the Catholic school at Saint Dominic' ; s for the first two years. AT: 17:14 After moving? AK: 17:15 Yeah. AT: 17:17 And you said second or third grade? AK: 17:20 No, first and second grade. And then, uh, for third grade on up. Then I went to, uh, Edward Jenner. AT: 17:30 And do you remember where those schools were located? AK: 17:34 Um, Saint Dominic' ; s was located on Hudson. Just, uh, let' ; s see. Just north of Chicago Avenue and, uh, Jenner. Let' ; s see, Jenner was located on Cleveland. I know. Um, AT: 17:56 Okay. AK: 17:56 Cause it' ; s, it' ; s still there. Um, I dunno if it' ; s, if it' ; s Larrabee maybe, I can' ; t remember exactly what, but it' ; s within a couple of blocks of where we lived in the projects and all. And, um, I know that they tore down the old Edward Jenner and they built a new one. But, uh, yeah, I graduated from there and then went to, you know, Wells high school. So when I graduated from there, that was the last class that, uh, but have eighth grade because there were so many kids that, um, they changed it to, you could graduate up to sixth grade and then you went to, uh, upper grades, uh, Cooley Upper Grade Center, and then Cooley High School. I don' ; t think that' ; s there anymore. AT: 19:06 And, what, would you happen to know at what point or when, um, your mom and your stepm- stepdad, um, got married? AK: 19:18 Uh, it' ; ll probably be like a 1946 AT: 19:21 So relatively soon after you had come back to Chicago. AK: 19:30 Mmhmm. AT: 19:30 And, um, and then did they, did you have siblings? AK: 19:36 Yeah, there' ; s nine siblings. AT: 19:39 So you were, you were the eldest? AK: 19:41 Right. AT: 19:46 Yeah. And, uh, what is the general kind of like, age difference between you all, AK: 20:00 Um, AT: 20:00 Or when was your next sibling? AK: 20:02 Well, I was three, so then after that there' ; s like, AT: 20:08 and you can, if you want to give me the names too, of your siblings and the order AK: 20:12 Oh, okay. Yeah, it' ; s uh, Ellyn, E, L L Y N , and then Robert, uh, Bill, Phyllis, Donna, Roger, Pat, Annette and Linda. And there' ; s like, you know, between a and a year and a half, uh, between each, each kid. AT: 20:55 So you being three, it' ; s not you, it sounds like you had siblings. You got company, AK: 21:04 Yeah. AT: 21:06 Pretty shortly after moving to Chicago. Um, all right. Let' ; s see. So, Um, Do you know what your stepdad was doing at Edgewater beach hotel? AK: 21:24 I believe he was a cook there, you know, like a, um, I don' ; t know what kind of cooking was, you know, whether he was doing the salads or stuff like that. AT: 21:42 Um, and then, uh, AK: 21:53 Oh, maybe he might' ; ve been a waiter there. Well, I don' ; t, I don' ; t know. AT: 21:58 Your mom and your stepdad. Um, do you know how long they stayed at the Edgewater beach hotel? How long they were working there? AK: 22:08 Um, I think she, she, uh, quit, I don' ; t know how long she was there, but, uh, yeah, she quit working there and, um, He started working as a waiter over at a place called St Hubert' ; s grill, which I don' ; t think is, you know, uh, in existence anymore. But, um, um, yeah, I mean. He had a drinking problem, so this is why we continued to live in, you know, the projects and all, and, uh.vBecause all, all our other friends, especially Japanese, uh, families, you know, moved out fairly quickly. AT: 23:08 Moved out of... AK: 23:08 They moved out of the Cabrini Green and, you know, they were living in, uh, uh, homes and things like that. AT: 23:18 And your stepdad, was he living, you guys were living together in Cabrini. AK: 23:26 Mhmm. AT: 23:28 And so I' ; m sorry, what, what year was that? Probably around that you moved into Cabrini Green? AK: 23:35 1950. And then they moved out in 1967, which was just, you know, October of ' ; 67, which was just before, uh, the riots started in April because of Martin Luther King' ; s assassination. AT: 23:53 So you all were, you were through, there for about, um, about 17 years. AK: 23:59 it was 17 years. Yeah. AT: 24:01 Umm. And you mentioned there were a couple of other Japanese families there. What was, what was kind of the general demographics, um, when you, when you first moved in, of Cabrini Green, what was Cabrini Green like? AK: 24:19 Um, you know, actually the, there were like, uh, predominantly, uh, Caucasian, you know, Polish and, and Greeks and, uh, Italians. And then, um, I mean it was pretty well rounded. Um, but as I said, by 19, by the mid fifties, that had changed, especially since building the, um, they were starting to build the high rise and, um, uh, the influx of, of Appalachian whites and, and the blacks from, you know, the South and all. There was also a, uh, um, I think it' ; s still there, Lower North Center. It was a, um, uh, a place where the kids could go. Like after school they had like, uh, different, um, activities, you know, almost like an after school program, you know. It was, it was good. They had, during this summer, they had day camp. And, um, uh, you could take different classes and things like that. They had piano lessons. And AT: 25:51 is that something that you and your siblings took part in? AK: 25:55 We did the day camp, you know, during the summer. And um, I' ; m not sure. I don' ; t recall. There, they might have been too young to go the, but I think my sister and I went to a, some of the classes and whatnot. AT: 26:20 You said there' ; s piano classes? AK: 26:22 Yeah, well the piano classes, you know, it was a group piano lessons and um, so I took a couple of the classes but um, so I must' ; ve been about about 15 then. I think. Yeah. Cause I started working part time at um, Henrotin Hospital, which is no longer in existence, but it was a small hospital located on the Lasalle and Oak. AT: 27:02 What was the name of it? AK: 27:03 Henrotin, That' ; s H. E. N. R. O. T. I. N. I worked in the uh, uh, diet kitchen. So. AT: 27:17 And so was that, um, you must have still been in school at that point? AK: 27:22 Yeah I was in high school then. AT: 27:24 And so when would you work at the hospital? What hours? AK: 27:31 I think we worked from, uh 5 to 7:30, somewhere around there. Yeah. AT: 27:40 In the evenings, after school? AK: 27:44 Yeah, mhmm. AT: 27:49 And, um, just a few kind of general questions about growing up. Um, was your family religious at all? AK: 27:59 Yes, we, um, with one of the families, it was, uh, the Menominee family. They used to go to the, what we call the Chicago Avenue church, which is Reverend Oyama' ; s church. And it was on, uh, Chicago and Noble and, uh, they took us, uh, to the church and that was in ' ; 58. AT: 28:23 So, AK: 28:29 But prior to that, but prior to that, um, I believe it was either Wheaton, no, it must' ; ve been Moody Bible. Uh, students would have one of the, uh, vacant apartments and they would have a church and Sunday School there. And we would go to that. AT: 28:49 In the, AK: 28:49 In the projects. Yeah. AT: 28:54 Mmm. Was that something that was attended by folks who lived there or, AK: 28:59 Right, yeah. AT: 29:01 Um, and uh, AK: 29:06 But then when, when, uh, we were introduced to, uh, the Chicago Avenue Church, um, we started going there and, um, so somebody would pick us up and take us to a, uh, the Chicago Avenue Church. It was, what was it called? Uh, the Japanese Church of Jesus Christ. AT: 29:34 Mmm. And what, uh, what sect or, uh, denominations where. AK: 29:44 It was interdenominational. AT: 29:49 Um, and, and so was the, ' ; 58, um. Let' ; s see, so you would have been just about in high school when you stopped going to that church, is that right? AK: 30:10 Yeah. Yeah. AT: 30:13 Um, what about other activities outside of school? Did you do anything? You mentioned that the after school program, which used to, AK: 30:23 Well, once I started working then I didn' ; t have, so, uh. The church would have, uh, like a youth group on Saturdays. We could go to that. AT: 30:39 And um, well it sounds like it was a Japanese church, so it was mostly Japanese families? AK: 30:48 There were, uh, Caucasians also, but mainly Japanese AT: 30:52 Um, and well, and that' ; s right, you, you were, you are, the oldest 10 kids. So as the oldest where they, did, you have to kind of take on a lot of responsibilities to help out your mom? And. AK: 31:14 Yes, cause back in those days they did not have, um, disposable diapers and, um, you know, just cleaning, you know, doing the laundry. Um, and back in those days, we had, we had a wringer washer and, um, and then for, we had no dryer, so we' ; d have to either hang them outside or hang them in the, you know, in the apartment AT: 31:48 Mhmm, um. And also to just get a better sense, um, you know, of course Cabrini Green from its inception had seen like a lot of changes as far as the actual structures. And so when you moved in, uh, it looks, they would have just had the low rises at that point. AK: 32:16 Right. And Montgomery Wards was not too far from us. Cause it was right by the river there. Over near Chicago Avenue. Let' ; s see. I' ; m trying to think how old, like my sister and I, um, we got a job with IGA grocery store delivering the circulars in the row houses. AT: 32:45 I' ; m sorry, delivering the what? AK: 32:45 Circulars there. The grocery circulars, there' ; d be flyers. And, um, so we would get a dollar and a half and we' ; d have to, you know, put these flyers in every mailbox in, uh, uh, in the row houses. And so what we would do, we' ; d get them, we' ; d get them on Tuesday night, fold them and then, uh, deliver them on Wednesday. And, um, so we thought folding all those circulars was a lot of, you know, a lot of work and all, so we employed our younger siblings to help us and, you know, we' ; d give them a nickel or a dime. And back in those days, that was a lot of money. But, uh, they did it. So, um, AT: 33:44 Just delegated the task! AK: 33:45 Right. AT: 33:46 Do you remember how much you all were getting paid for it? AK: 33:49 Yeah, we got a 1.50 each. And that was, you know, for basically two nights worth of, uh, cause it took us maybe about, uh, two hours I think, you know, to deliver them cause we were walking and, um, it would be Cam-, let' ; s see, Cambridge, Mohawk, Cleveland and Hudson. Those are the streets. And I, you know, I don' ; t know. I can' ; t recall how many, uh, apartments. Uh, but, and then when the, when the high rise came, they wanted us to deliver him the circulars inside the, uh, the high rise. And I thought, no, because it was soon after they were built and everything and where the people were moving in, there was, you know, crimes happening and the elevators are breaking down and all. Um, I think we' ; d, we' ; d delivered it once. And what we did was we just threw all the circulars in the elevators and, and left because it was just too, uh, it was too scary to even go in there. So, um, so we decided it' ; s not worth it because we weren' ; t going to get paid any more. And, uh, so we just quit. AT: 35:18 Um, so I' ; ve, I' ; ve mentioned to you, it' ; s, you know, not very often that you get to hear from, uh, Japanese Americans who grew up in Cabrini Green. Um, and I' ; m just wondering, uh, if, well I guess that aside, I' ; m just, I' ; m curious to hear more about, what, I guess what Cabrini green was like in those earlier when it was just the low rise, AK: 35:55 Um, AT: 35:56 Because that' ; s when it was still new. AK: 35:57 Yeah. AT: 35:59 And my understanding, AK: 35:59 Cause they were built I think in the, uh, mid forties. AT: 36:05 What I, what I found was, um, the initial purpose, so was the Chicago Housing Authority and they had initially built it for, uh, workers during the war. AK: 36:19 Right. AT: 36:19 So people to help out with, um, that kind of stuff during the war, which was mid forties. Um, and it sounds like the, the original plan was to house people temporarily. AK: 36:33 Right. It was basically a housing for people to get on their feet, uh, after the war and all, and, uh, and, and a lot of people did. Um, but it was just, uh, it became a place, you know, for the poor. And, um, um, I think that, uh, you know, from, from my point of view or, you know, by, uh, perspective, um, it wasn' ; t as bad as, as, you know, living in the high rise projects, that to me was bad. And I think, you know, in retrospect, the whole idea, uh, of housing, all these poor people, you know, and so many was not, you know, uh, not, not a good thing, but, um, I don' ; t think that, um, you know, my family as a whole, had, you know, uh, problems or anything. Um, but we, we did know that we knew what we did not want in life. And, um, the only way to do it is through education and, and, uh, uh, just being, um, more positive, you know, rather than a negative. And so it was a good experience. Um, I mean, a lot of people think, Oh my God, you know, you, you lived in Cabrini Green and you' ; re a [how-bet?]. That' ; s what they hear about it now. And, um, but it wasn' ; t, you know, it wasn' ; t like that. Um, and I, I don' ; t think that, yeah, I don' ; t think that my siblings had any, any, uh, physical problems or, you know, fights or anything like that. There might' ; ve been one or two, but, um, on the whole, everybody knew the Prosises and, uh, AT: 38:55 And so is that your stepdad' ; s name? AK: 39:01 Yeah. Prosise. Yeah. AT: 39:03 What kind of name is that? AK: 39:05 It' ; s, um, I think French and in French and German. So, and he didn' ; t see, he came from Verdun, Illinois, which is a small, at that time, a small coal mining town or something like that. But, uh, AT: 39:26 And do you know when he moved to Chicago? AK: 39:29 No. Yeah. I don' ; t know. Cause he, no, he, he was a graduate of a Wesleyan and, um, but he didn' ; t do anything with his education, you know, so, um, but otherwise, uh, it was, it was, you know. Memories of him are horrible. So, you know, it' ; s, it' ; s uh, um, that part, you know, uh, of my childhood, I wouldn' ; t, you know, I don' ; t relish. So, but, but otherwise, you know, I think all my siblings came out fine and, and they' ; re doing well. Uh, my youngest brother wrote a book about his, uh. He, he States that, you know, he, he' ; s a product of the, uh, uh, Cabrini Green and then going to, uh, to the suburbs, you know, which he calls mansions and then the education, cause he was a district superintendent in Mundelein. And so, um, yeah. AT: 41:09 So we have a few minutes left, AK: 41:11 So if you want me to come back, I can come back. But it' ; s just a time when, because of we' ; re doing a luau, so I' ; m trying to get, you know, AT: 41:24 Oh, I see, sure. Well, and I want to get you out of here on time AK: 41:27 And I can also have my sister come to, uh, cause she' ; ll be moved in by then and whatnot. AT: 41:33 Uh which sister, would that be? AK: 41:33 That would be Ellyn. She' ; s righ, yeah. And she' ; s an educator. She' ; s a, uh, uh, she taught English, uh, high school English at Austin when it was, it had gone from one, when we were in high school. It was all white. When she was teaching there. It was totally black. And, um, uh, she was, uh, a good, you know, teacher and then she went over to Lakeview and she was there for about 25 years, so. AT: 42:10 Oh and well, and that was, uh, that' ; s actually, uh, something I was curious about. As far as the rest of your siblings, um, from the time that you all were living in Cabrini, did everyone kind of go through the same, uh, schooling as, as you did? So your siblings went through Jenner? AK: 42:30 Yeah. Well, yeah, they had different schools. They went to Jenner. And then, uh, let' ; s see, my sister Phyllis. Okay. Number five, she, this was when they instituted the program where, uh, the poor kids could go to better schools or whatever. And so she went to Von Steuben and cause I remember she would have to leave the house like six o' ; clock in the morning to get to Von Steuben from the projects and all. Um, so she went to Von Steuben. And then, uh, my brother Robert though, he went to Lane and bill went to Baller. And so Ellen and I went to Wells.And then by that time they had moved to, um, uh, the North side from, uh, Cabrini. They move over to, uh, what was it around Southport and Addison area. So they went to, um, Blaine elementary school and, uh, Lakeview. AT: 43:50 And would you, after high school, what did you move on to do, AK: 43:56 Ah, after, after high school I went to live with my aunt and uncle. AT: 44:01 Um, were they still on the North side? AK: 44:02 Yeah, they, it was over, uh, around, uh, uh, the uptown area. So I lived with them for four years, and then I went to, uh, I got my own apartment and, you know, I was working and everything. AT: 44:19 And what kind of work are you doing? AK: 44:22 Uh, office work. AT: 44:27 Um, And, uh, w- after living with your aunt and uncle and while you were, you know, as an adult, working adult, over, where did you move from there? AK: 44:49 Um, after my aunt and uncle, I got my first apartment, moved over around the Clark Fullerton area. Um, after that, uh, my sister and I got an apartment over on Broadway and Waveland. AT: 45:11 Um, so mostly sticking to the North side. AK: 45:14 Yeah. Yeah. AT: 45:28 I, I am considering asking you to, AK: 45:32 Ok, AT: 45:32 I just have, you know, a lot of questions, but I want to be sensitive to your time. Uh, I guess as we kind of wrap up, um, I would be curious. Well, Oh, one question I did want to ask was, uh, when you were going through your, um, schooling elementary and high school, were you going to school with other kids from Cabrini green or the kids of the schools, I guess, where were they coming from? AK: 46:06 Yeah. Uh, let' ; s see. Yeah, there were some, some kids from, uh, Cabrini cause, uh, I maintained, uh, uh, friendships and um, but you know, it' ; s strange because when I became like a junior, um, my friendships just changed and whatnot. And so, um, I, I really don' ; t know what ever happened to some of the kids, but, um, yeah, because then, you know, uh, I became more involved over a church and, and uh, um, AT: 46:59 In high school. AK: 47:00 Yeah. So I don' ; t, yeah, cause I didn' ; t have, uh, like friends, like in the projects area, it was, um, more on the outskirts cause they lived in, in, uh, apartment buildings and things like that. But, uh, yeah, there was only a couple of kids, a couple of girls that, you know, went to the same school because some of them, I can' ; t remember the names of the high schools that they went to, but it was more on the South side I think. AT: 47:43 And, um, how long were you attending the, um, Chicago Avenue Church? AK: 47:52 Uh, till about 1964. AT: 48:02 And did you start attending a different church? AK: 48:05 No, I sort of stopped going to church then. And, uh, which I did, but I would, you know, they built, they built another church on the Northside, uh, Clerk and Devon. And, uh, but in the interim they had, uh, uh, rented a facility over, uh, Trinity I think. Uh, so like on Ashland and Berteau somewhere in that area. And, um, so I' ; d go to church there, you know, in and out kind of thing. AT: 48:52 And I guess, uh, as we wrap up, I know we didn' ; t fully get to to everything, but it seems like even from a young age, whether it' ; s through church or families, you knew you were in some way kind of connected with a bigger Japanese American community in Chicago. Um, and I know you still are now, um, whether through church or, or the ukulele club. This is a very broad question, but how would you, I guess if you had to compare the Japanese American community of Chicago sort of in those earlier memories of it and compare it to now, what would you say? What has maybe changed or, or maybe what' ; s the same? AK: 49:54 I think that, um, I' ; m trying to think when, uh, cause cause we were involved with the, um, um, I think it has got NCAA or something. AT: 50:12 Uh, the athletic? AK: 50:12 Yeah. AT: 50:12 CNNAA. AK: 50:15 Yeah. CNNAA, yeah. Cause my, I know my youngest brother was, uh, involved in that cause he played basketball. Um, the other two not so much cause they were older and so they were working and whatnot. But, um, I think that some of the younger siblings were more involved in, in, uh, like baseball and volleyball and, you know, uh, activities, um, I was involved with, you know, the golfing and uh, but in comparison, um, I think because we, you know, we, we weren' ; t, yeah. You know, we weren' ; t real, well it' ; s only through church that we were involved in any of the activities and whatnot. Um, yeah. Cause some of the, you know, like my younger sisters were more involved, uh, in the church activities, um, than I was, you know, at that time. And, and uh, uh, my youngest brother was more involved in, uh, the church activities. The two older ones were not. So, um, yeah. AT: 51:55 And it was just like, what, what you' ; ve seen as far as maybe how people were organized then versus now? AK: 52:02 Um, yeah, I know that, that, uh, the, uh, the, the nisei at, at [Leonard Fink?], uh, was really good. And I don' ; t know if they have that now or not. I see. Cause I' ; m kind of out of the thing. I know that, that, uh, there' ; s, um, Ty Momii has the basketball camp, you know, at, at, uh, Ravenswood. But other than that, I don' ; t know. Uh, I don' ; t hear about it, you know, because I don' ; t have, uh, like my younger, all my siblings who are married and have kids, they' ; re all they' ; re, uh, involve either their own church or, um, their own community. So I don' ; t think that, I don' ; t, I don' ; t even know if they have, uh, uh, that social type of, uh, uh, organizations anymore. All right, you know. Because I mean, I used to Bowl the, uh, Southside, a Nisei league and all, you know, but that was a long time ago. So. AT: 53:20 When you were young, did you, um, have a connection with your Japanese American identity? AK: 53:27 No, because, uh, I didn' ; t go to, um, I think it was Olivet, used to have dances when, ah. I just never had time for that, so, and I don' ; t know how to dance anyway, so. AT: 53:48 Well, um, I know you have to go and thank you for, for taking the time. Um, if it' ; s okay with you, I would love to, to talk to you more, maybe another session. Um, but before we wrap up now, is there anything else that you might want to add or that I might' ; ve missed? AK: 54:13 Uh, No not really. AT: 54:13 And, and if, if so, we can kind of just call this part one and then, you know, talk another time. But thank you so much again for coming. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KojimaAiko20181018.xml KojimaAiko20181018.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Kojima, Aiko (10/18/2018, 11/29/18)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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Kagasawa, Katherine
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Kojima, Wade
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Interview Keyword
Intergenerational dynamics
Intergenerational trauma
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL
Twin Cities
Minneapolis, MN
Cleveland, OH
Redress
Sansei
OHMS Object Text
5.4 1/6/2023 Kojima, Wade (1/6/2023) 1:02:38 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Intergenerational dynamics Intergenerational trauma Japanese American Citizens League JACL Twin Cities Minneapolis, MN Cleveland, OH Redress Sansei Kojima, Wade Kagasawa, Katherine video 1:|11(6)|21(8)|33(13)|47(8)|69(9)|81(7)|95(3)|104(4)|116(3)|128(11)|137(10)|152(3)|160(14)|173(3)|181(13)|192(16)|203(2)|212(11)|222(13)|237(2)|246(9)|256(3)|270(18)|283(10)|305(3)|318(2)|337(9)|355(12)|368(8)|378(1)|391(10)|400(9)|421(4)|434(4)|442(7)|454(14)|462(9)|474(7)|487(3)|500(5)|511(10)|523(7)|534(4)|542(5)|552(7)|566(14)|579(15)|597(3)|609(4)|617(9)|631(9)|643(3)|658(11)|674(8)|691(3)|703(16)|710(10)|718(7)|737(10)|753(3)|773(11)|794(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/824880514/03ed6a4cc7 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/824880514?h=03ed6a4cc7" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Wade Kojima, a Sansei with roots in Hawaii, describes his involvement in the JACL's redress efforts in Minnesota and Ohio. First via involvement with a Japanese American youth organization, and later as a board member of the Twin Cities JACL Chapter and Redress Chair of the Cleveland JACL Chapter, he shares his observations of the intergenerational dynamics between Nisei and Sansei at the time of the redress movement. He recalls the challenges of being an outsider trying to gain the trust of community members in Cleveland, the support he received from his wife's family, and the names of many individuals who were involved in redress efforts in the Midwest. He also discusses lessons learned about leadership styles and personal reflections on the subject of intergenerational trauma. Katherine Nagasawa: So, today is January 6th, 2023, and this oral history is being recorded over Zoom. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa and the interviewee is Wade Kojima. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So I was wondering if you could just start with when you first heard about the redress movement, and what your reaction was to it. Wade Kojima: The first time I heard about redress was probably in 1976. Maybe ' ; 75. But I was in a Japanese American youth organization, and JACL was just starting to try to gear up for it and talking about it at a convention. I think they talked about it in ' ; 74, but in ' ; 76, I know it was a big item on the agenda. And, so I, for me it was something-- I mean I knew about the camps and everything, but just getting background on all that back then. And so that' ; s how I got some of my history. And then in ' ; 78, I became the Midwest district chair for the J-- for the youth group, so I sat on the national board level as well. And so that was a major discussion, and I knew, I got to know John Tateishi, and so I learned a lot from him as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And up until the mid-' ; 70s, what did you know about camp? Wade Kojima: I didn' ; t know a whole lot because... Only what I heard from some of the JACL, is ' ; cause my parents were not in camp because they grew up in Hawaii, so I just knew that there was, you know they went to relocation centers. And then there was so many different camps throughout the mountains and the desert areas. And then, you know whatever the Niseis told us about it, then that' ; s about what I knew about it. And, and then I found out that my grandfather actually was in a Justice Department camp in Santa Fe. Katherine Nagasawa: And how did you find out about that? Did he tell you directly, or did you hear from a different relative? Wade Kojima: No, I heard it from my mom and then some other relatives, but we never, my grandfather never talked about it, so... We basically... So I don' ; t know anything from his perspective. Katherine Nagasawa: And when you started hearing more about plans for redress from John Tateishi when you were part of-- when you were representing the Midwest, what did you think about the idea of asking for an apology or asking for monetary compensation? Wade Kojima: Well, I felt that the apology was probably necessary. I didn' ; t know about that monetary compensation, because most of... The people that suffered the most, I felt, when I, as I was learning, were the Isseis. You know the Niseis had, were pretty well off, you know as far as their careers and everything, but it was the Isseis that basically lost everything. You know, when you start hearing that you know, they lost their farm lands, they lost all their possessions, people that had businesses lost that, and, and they were never compensated for it, or very, it was a very small amount of compensation. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Wade Kojima: So, but the Isseis were you know, by the time late ' ; 70s, you know, a lot of the Isseis had passed away already. And so I felt, just, this is just, was my opinion, that the money should be used for, a big chunk of it, should be used for education. And I felt that if there are still Isseis alive, then maybe we should have, you know, we should help them out as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, but you felt like education was the most effective form of redress? Wade Kojima: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, gotcha. And I remember you mentioned-- Wade Kojima: Well I mean as far as-- Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, go ahead. Wade Kojima: As far as JACL, it was one thing, it would be one thing you know to put the money into somewhere where JACL would have some say in the implementation of any kind of education. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I remember when we talked on the phone, you said you might disagree with yourself now, with what was the most important part of redress. Do you know exactly how your mind has changed about what pieces were most important? Wade Kojima: Well, I think for the Niseis, I think it gave them a sense of closure you know to have this happen and to get the monetary compensation. I think for a lot of ' ; em, they, they didn' ; t suffer like their parents did, but there was some psychological effects, I think. I mean the anger, you know within a lot of them. I mean when I tried to talk to them in the ' ; 80s, a lot of people wouldn' ; t even talk about it. You know, they all just wanted to... You know you either had the, both ends of the spectrum. People were angry about it because they missed out on things like college or, you know or they were pulled out of college, or you had the younger end of it that thought that that was kind of fun ' ; cause they kinda got out of school, you know it was more recreational. I mean yes, they still had school, but I think they found it kind of adventuresome at times. Katherine Nagasawa: So you saw people on very different parts of the spectrum? Wade Kojima: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I' ; m curious, you were in your early twenties... Late teens and early twenties when you were most involved with JACL and redress. What do you think activated you, as a Sansei who didn' ; t even experience camp and whose parents didn' ; t directly experience camp, to be involved? Wade Kojima: Well for me, I had never... It was partially trying to find your identity. Because I had, I grew up, and your father might be able to say the same thing, is I grew up trying to be white, trying to fit in you know, where we lived. And so I didn' ; t want to be known, I didn' ; t want to really be Japanese at that point. And so this was when I got involved in JACL, it was about finding out who I was, my ancestry. Katherine Nagasawa: And do you feel like that process happened when you were kind of first getting involved? Did you feel like that sense of community helped you feel less ashamed of your identity, or more willing to claim it in your early twenties? Or how did that process evolve for you? Wade Kojima: I think it just made me more proud, as far as being Japanese, Japanese American, and being able to talk about it. You know because I think in the ' ; 70s you know, there was a lot going on, a lot of immigration. Like I went to University of Minnesota, and at that time when I started, that' ; s when the Vietnamese immigration happened. So you know, the campus had hundreds and hundreds of Vietnamese students on campus back then. So you started learning about other Asian communities as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And just for context for people watching, can you talk a little bit about where you grew up, and what the demographics were of your neighborhood, your high school, and in general, how many people were in the JACL Twin Cities chapter when you entered? Wade Kojima: When I... I grew up in Bloomington, Minnesota, and in my elementary school, I was basically the only minority in the school until I got to fifth grade, and then an Indian family moved in. And then in junior high, basically there was a Chinese family, and maybe... Maybe two Chinese families, and it wasn' ; t until high school that there was actually some other Japanese families that had went to our high school as well. So, I really didn' ; t have a lot of exposure. Now I became friends with a lot of the Japanese, just because I hadn' ; t really had a lot of exposure. This is when I was starting to get involved in JACL. And, and so seeing other Japanese, it was you know, something that I wanted to experience, you know be friends with them. And so that was a new, that was kind of like the beginning. Minnesota is... Back then, it was... Bloomington, and even where your dad grew up in Richfield, it was still predominantly white and Scandinavian, of Scandinavian origin. So there was a lot of, back then in the early ' ; 70s, there was still a lot of name-calling, you know as far as... You know just ' ; cause how we looked, whether you, you know they thought you were Japanese or Chinese, but they had a name for you. So... Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, my dad said there was a lot of bullying, for sure, and one time he went to a grocery store and he saw one other little Asian boy, and he told his, my grandma, he was like, " ; That' ; s me!" ; ' ; Cause he' ; d literally never seen another Asian kid before. So, I can imagine it was isolating. Wade Kojima: Yeah. It was very, you know... You didn' ; t really realize how it, how many Asians really are in the world. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I know after high school, when you moved to Ohio, you got involved in the Cleveland chapter. Can you talk about that transition and the role you took on when you joined the Cleveland chapter? ' ; Cause you were the redress representative for them, right? Wade Kojima: Yes, I was. And so it was a, kind of a natural thing for me, since I was on the Twin Cities JACL board before I moved. I was on it during college and then when I moved, it just seemed natural for me to get involved. And so I got-- Because I knew a lot of the Sanseis on the board in Cleveland, so I got involved, and somehow they asked me to become redress chair, which is very difficult when you don' ; t know the community. And so I had to rely on... My wife is from Cleveland, so her extended family. So I had to reach out to them first and try to talk to them. And, and there were some angry... We had discussions, and a lot of anger came out because of that discussion. Katherine Nagasawa: Anger at asking for redress, anger about the camps? Wade Kojima: Anger about the camps, and anger about talking. I mean it just like brought out emotions out of people that I had never, you know, you would never think, you know that just them talking about what happened in camp made them angry. You know, and those are the people that were a little bit older. There was people that were younger in camp, and some of them had good things to say... Not good things, but fun things that they remembered, like playing baseball and hitting the ball over the fence so the guards would have to get the ball, or they would volunteer to go work in the farm fields, picking vegetables and fruits. So, you heard things like that. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any of the things that people said, the people who were angry or, or resentful? Wade Kojima: Resentful because they were technically American citizens, and basically not being... You know, a violation of their constitutional rights, you know as a U.S. citizen. And my mother always said though, that in times of war, anything can happen. You know ' ; cause of mass hysteria. And I mean we actually witnessed it again with 9/11, to a, not to that degree of the Japanese, but the attitudes were there. Katherine Nagasawa: What was it like for you to have to probe into your in-laws side about something that is so sensitive and, and triggering? Wade Kojima: It was very difficult. It was... I didn' ; t want to get people mad at me, because I wound up eventually marrying into the family. So you know and, but there were people on both sides of the fence. You know, some were angry and some were not so angry. And you know, in the end, I think even the angry ones kind of mellowed out over the years, and were able to talk about it a little bit more. And in fact, the one-- My wife' ; s one uncle who was so vocal about it, he actually joined the JACL board. And so that just amazed me that he could do that after being so angry at, at everybody, at the world about this. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you think was the main thing that pushed him into joining or that changed him? Wade Kojima: I think, well, a couple things. One was he saw what JACL represented and what they were doing on the national level. And then he also, he saw how the Niseis were treating the Sansei, and so he got involved, him and another aunt got involved, of my wife' ; s. You know, they got involved because the Niseis never let the Sanseis run things. A lot of times they would tell them what to do. And so their goals were to try to get the, move the Niseis out and let the Sanseis come in. But I think by that point, when they, when they did that, it was already too late, because I' ; m on the younger side of the Sanseis, the reality of that generation. And, and so a lot of them had already been in JACL and quit because, because the Nisei always told them what to do. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you describe a bit of the breakdown of who was Nisei and who was Sansei in the chapter, and that dynamic that feels kind of, kind of paternalistic between Nisei and Sansei? Because you said it was like 90% Nisei, right? Wade Kojima: It was. And I mean, and what I found out too, even in the Twin Cities, Sanseis didn' ; t want to join JACL because they didn' ; t want to... Because it almost felt like, this is what it felt like to me, okay? And I had never been involved in an organization like this. So for me, it was kind of a learning experience, but basically it was like everybody reported back to your parents. If they didn' ; t like something you said or something you did, they would tell your parents. And so consequently, that' ; s like, I think, a lot of why Sanseis were starting to fall away from the organization. Katherine Nagasawa: Were you able to recruit any people your age to join during that period? Wade Kojima: Oh, yes I, we did. I was able to get a few to come in, but it' ; s more for social aspects of it, not really for leadership. And I really probably never really appreciated the leadership opportunities I had until maybe today, you know, or later in life. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you feel like, you know being part of that organization taught you about leadership? Or what kind of opportunities did it provide? Wade Kojima: Well, the one thing is, you know there' ; s no right way or wrong way to learn from everybody, but you need to jump in with both feet and get, you know commit yourself to something. And I think that' ; s how you learn. I think that' ; s how you learn how to be a good leader, good mentor, and you have to be open to new ideas, which is something the Niseis always had a hard time with. As far-- I mean, I used to have suggestions in Twin Cities and they would kind of tell me, " ; Well, you' ; re still young." ; Katherine Nagasawa: Despite feeling... Despite getting that kind of treatment from the elders, what do you think made you stay and spend so many years trying to work on efforts around redress and community building? Wade Kojima: Well, I think because of, because of the sanseis that I knew on the, in the community, I just stayed on as long as I could. I started probably phasing myself out after six or seven years on the Cleveland chapter, because there was a few leaders, Niseis, on the board that really... They would call me, one would call me and just yell at me and say you know, " ; You' ; re not doing anything that you should be doing." ; And he would just, he would call me at work and he would yell at me, and he' ; d say, " ; Why don' ; t you just resign?" ; And I said, " ; If you want me off the board, then you just kick me off the board." ; I said, " ; I will not quit." ; But he didn' ; t want to go that far. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Intergenerational tensions. Wade Kojima: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I was wondering if you could describe a bit more about your role as redress chair? What do you remember your responsibilities being, and kind of, what did the role entail? Wade Kojima: Well, part of it was trying to raise... I know part of it was to raise funds to gain awareness, you know. And we were, I mean part of it was raising funds for the national organization, because that' ; s, you know we had to come up with... You know, every chapter had to commit so many dollars to that. And so, yes, that was part of it. The other part of it was trying to get people to be on the, like a Speakers Bureau, so if they wanted, and they already had one, but I, you know I had to talk to a few more people to try to get them involved in, in it. And in the end, they had, they had quite a few, I know in the late ' ; 80s and into the ' ; 90s, there was quite a few people that would go out and speak. Katherine Nagasawa: Which names do you remember of people you got to be part of the Speakers Bureau? These were Nisei, right? Probably? Wade Kojima: These were Nisei. Well, one of my supporters back then was Sadie Yamane, and she was, she was a part of the Speakers Bureau for a long time. And then, but she was, she was actually a Sansei. She was an old sansei. She was, I think she was born in camp, if I' ; m not mistaken. And then my one uncle, or my wife' ; s uncle, Harry Takeda, he was, I think he spoke at places. I think Jim Doi was another one. Mary Doi: Can I, can I ask a question? Was this Jimmy Doi, who might' ; ve taught at... Oh no, you' ; re in Cleveland. Wade Kojima: This is Cleveland. Mary Doi: Michigan, sorry, different Doi. Wade Kojima: Yeah, I, I mean know people in Michigan too, but... Mary Doi: Thank you. Wade Kojima: Hank Tanaka was another big one back in the ' ; 80s that did a lot of speaking. Katherine Nagasawa: Mr. Takeda, the uncle, is he the one who was really angry at the beginning and then joined the board? Wade Kojima: Yes. Mm-hmm. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, gotcha. That' ; s amazing that he went from not wanting to speak about it at all or being really upset, and then being able to do public speaking. Wade Kojima: Yes, it was. And even when I lived in Chicago in the ' ; 90s, he would, every time I would see him when we would visit, he would say, " ; When are you moving back to Cleveland? I need you, I need you on the board." ; Him and my aunt, my wife' ; s aunt, Setsu Nakashige. She was another one that would go out and speak as well. But both of them kept wanting me, wanted us to move back to Cleveland so I could get back involved on the board. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, they want to galvanize the Sansei. I was wondering, out of your wife' ; s side of the family or people that you recruited for the Speakers Bureau, do you know how many of them actually testified at the Chicago hearings? ' ; Cause I know Hank Tanaka did, I think, testify. Wade Kojima: Yes, he did. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know, actually. I mean, I knew a few of the people that probably testified, but I don' ; t know if any of the family did. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. ' ; Cause I remember you said you, you didn' ; t make the trip to Chicago for the hearings. Wade Kojima: I did not. Katherine Nagasawa: I was wondering, do you remember the names of any of the other Midwest or Ohio-based redress representatives that you would' ; ve worked with closely for fundraising or for identifying witnesses? Wade Kojima: My memory is not that good. (laughs) Katherine Nagasawa: You remember a lot of names, I feel. Wade Kojima: I do. I mean, people like in Detroit, I remember Jimmy Shimura, he was heavily involved. He was, he was the attorney for Vincent Chin, and that whole thing that went on when Vincent Chin was killed because of the auto work, you know, people looked at him as being Japanese. Katherine Nagasawa: And he was involved in redress as well? You said that Linda Hashimoto' ; s husband knows him or something? Wade Kojima: Yes, that' ; s correct. They went to school together at Michigan State. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Detroit. Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. Katherine Nagasawa: Who else do you remember? Wade Kojima: And Linda' ; s always-- Linda has been involved, but not on redress, but she' ; s always been involved, and she volunteers with every organization in the Twin Cities. But other people I remember is like May Tanaka out of Minneapolis. I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot... Kimi Hara. They were all big leaders in, in the Twin City area. I think-- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any Sansei that were particularly involved around Ohio, or people who might still be alive? Wade Kojima: No, most of the people... Me, well, Bill Sadataki Jr. was involved when I was, but he got off the board before I did, even. And then my wife' ; s cousin was on the board, John Akiba Jr. He was on the board, but then he moved to Minneapolis. Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. Could you talk a bit about the landscape of the Ohio JACL chapters? Did they have-- Were certain ones much larger than others? Did certain ones really focus on specific issues, or... I guess were you in regular contact with them as well? Wade Kojima: I probably was in more contact with them, with all the chapters when I was in, when I was the Midwest district chair for the youth group. But yeah, I didn' ; t-- I didn' ; t know who... I couldn' ; t remember now who was working on redress from the other chapters. Cincinnati, Cincinnati had a fairly large JACL chapter, and then Dayton was a little bit smaller. I' ; m trying to think some of the... In Dayton, that was one of the age discrimination cases there with Borden Milk, I think, I' ; m trying to think of his last name. His first name was Mas, I think. And then I don' ; t know if you know who Pete Hironaka is? He was the cartoonist for the Pacific Citizen, he, he was a cartoonist and so he did all the cartoons in the Pacific Citizen. And so I knew his daughter in, in the youth group, so... Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. So it seems like Cincinnati and Cleveland were maybe two of the larger chapters? Wade Kojima: Yeah, and then Detroit, was a, it was a fairly large... A lot of family there. Shimuras, the Teshimas were the two big families there, and then you know, there was Milwaukee and also Minneapolis, so... Katherine Nagasawa: If you could characterize the role that you feel like Cleveland played in the redress movement, how would you describe it? Wade Kojima: I don' ; t necessarily know we had a-- I mean, I think we had some role in it. I mean a lot of it was because of our connection with Hank Tanaka because he also was, he sat on the national board before, I think he was JACL board president, national board president at one time. You know so he had a lot of connections. And, but he wasn' ; t... I' ; m not a fan of his. Him and I kind of butted heads a few times, and, and he' ; s one of the, he' ; s one of the reasons a lot of Sanseis got off the board. But I have a lot of respect for, for Hank. Hank did a lot for the organization, and, and I did learn a lot from him. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Do you remember his stance on redress? Like do you remember conversations with him about the redress movement and what he would' ; ve said about that? Wade Kojima: He was, he really wanted to push forward really hard you know, for redress, and you know, his complaint to me was that I, again, because I was new to the community, there was a lot of things I didn' ; t know how to go about, making contacts and everything. And he was pushing me to make a lot of calls. And, and at that time you know, I was pretty young, I was still young, and trying to make cold calls to Niseis is a little difficult. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. So he would' ; ve wanted you to be more, I guess, aggressive-- Wade Kojima: Assertive. Katherine Nagasawa: ...with your outreach, or assertive? Wade Kojima: Yes, yes. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Wade Kojima: I mean I even-- I worked in sales, sales engineering and, and project management my whole career, and I' ; m not, I don' ; t handle that very aggressively. I, I find a way into the door from some other angle, usually. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I feel like there are different approaches too, to outreach, because it seems like you were definitely able to get your wife' ; s side of the family to open up in some way or another, and get very involved eventually. So, I remember you had mentioned when we talked earlier that being involved in JACL kind of maybe was the reason why you took on other opportunities in the swimming world as you know, project manager or leader. Can you talk a bit about how you applied lessons from JACL and redress to other parts of your career or hobbies? Wade Kojima: I think a lot of it... A lot of what I learned is about how to be, let, let things roll off of you. I mean you' ; re always going to have people that are going to be critics of everything you do. And, and I have learned to not take it personally when people are saying things because, I just know from my experience, they' ; re just passionate about what they' ; re talking about. And so I kind of try to not let it affect me as much. You know and I, I was on the board of a Christian school in suburban Chicago. And even when I didn' ; t agree with, with what direction we were going, you know, there were a few board members that agreed with me and they said, " ; We need to, we need to disagree with everybody else." ; And I said, I said, " ; We can disagree with what they say, but if the board passes this," ; I said, " ; we have to get behind everybody. We have to be part of it. We can' ; t be critics after the fact. After they pass a direction, we' ; re going to go." ; And so I, you know I think like that, I learned a lot in JACL, because you have to try to appease a lot of people. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. So probably taught you a lot about working with different points of view and kind of political savvy, maybe. Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. And, and the same thing in swimming. I mean it' ; s... You' ; re going to always have parents yelling at you or coaches yelling at you because of, " ; that wasn' ; t fair" ; . You know, and you have to be able to stand up for your other officials and, and talk very civilly with everybody. And there are times that I' ; m thinking something I' ; d like to say to them, but I can' ; t say it. I have to be more politically correct and, and try to keep everybody calm. And so, and that' ; s how kind of how I rose up in, in the swimming world, is because I, I have a pretty even temperament, and so people recognize that. So I was official... I was diversity chair first, which, that' ; s another area that' ; s really hard to discuss with people. And then, and then I was officials chair and then became the general chair. Katherine Nagasawa: And can you just give a bit of context about what, what organization this is with? Wade Kojima: Okay, so it is Mississippi Swimming. We' ; re part of USA Swimming. It' ; s, Mississippi Swimming is one of 52 local swim councils within USA Swimming, and so we encompass all of Mississippi. But, so basically we direct all the swim clubs that are in Mississippi, and we have to sanction all their meets, and we have to have officials so that they can have their meets. So, every, every swim council has to run their particular area. And then from an officials standpoint, it' ; s more difficult because you have to volunteer, get trained, get experience. And, and so I' ; ve had to do a lot of training in that. Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha, thanks for giving that background. I wanted to end just with some reflections on the legacies of redress. And I wanted to start with asking you if you remember when the Civil Liberties Act eventually passed in the, in 1988, and do you remember where you were, who you were with, and how you felt when, when it passed? Were you still involved in... Were you in Ohio then or no? Wade Kojima: No, I wasn' ; t in Ohio, but I was actually on projects back in ' ; 88, I was in projects in Detroit area, so I was probably in contact with Jimmy Shimura more than I was with the Cleveland chapter. But, and then I moved in 1990, I took a job in Chicago area. And then I actually had reached out to Bill Yoshino, thinking that maybe I could get back involved again in JACL, but just couldn' ; t... Bill was, at that time, I think he was like... Was he the national director for a while? Katherine Nagasawa: I think at some point, yeah. Wade Kojima: Yeah. And so he was very busy, and so I could never you know, make contact with him, so... And plus-- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember though, even if you weren' ; t super involved with the JACL chapter, did you remember reading about the Civil Liberties Act passing, and how you felt? Wade Kojima: I felt good that it did eventually you know, get passed, and I felt good that you know the niseis were kind of, were very excited about it, you know hearing it from my wife' ; s relatives. So... Katherine Nagasawa: How did that aunt and uncle react, the ones that were more involved? Wade Kojima: I think, well I think in ' ; 88 they probably weren' ; t involved yet. So I think once they saw that getting passed, I think that changed their opinion on a lot of things, you know, what JACL was doing. And so you know it' ; s... That was a long process for a couple of the family members. You know and I, and the reality is they probably, once they got, you know a check from the government, they actually realized that something had, you know that JACL did, you know something that was concrete. It felt concrete to them. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you feel like the apology also played a role for them, like hearing an apology from the president? Wade Kojima: I believe for the older ones, older Niseis, that was a big thing for them. I don' ; t know about the younger ones, if they, you know... I mean when I say younger ones, they were older when that happened, but you know, I don' ; t think they had, they had the same feelings from that particular time period you know going forward. You know and so they might not have had the same, the same feeling at that time. But I do know that they, most people that I talked to, they all felt good about the passing of that. Katherine Nagasawa: How did you feel about the inclusion of the Civil Liberties Public Education Fund? Because I remember you mentioned that education was a very key part of what redress should represent. Wade Kojima: Well, I mean at that point I... All we can do at this point is try to relate experiences that we know about to other people. I mean, I' ; ve had more discussions about relatives being in camp, you know, my wife' ; s family being in camp, with other people, especially since I' ; ve lived in Mississippi, because they had no knowledge about any of this. And so it was, it' ; s been pretty enlightening for a lot of people, you know, that the government actually did something like that. You know and it' ; s, I guess in some ways, you know with what' ; s going on with them, with slaves' ; families trying to get you know, reparations from the government for now, and a lot of it' ; s in the South, but you know, I, I don' ; t see a correlation in the attitudes of all those families like the Japanese. Japanese were never publicly vocal about it, as much as what you see about the way slave families are. They broadcast how the injustice was done you know, hundreds of years ago. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you see a connection at all between the redress movement for Japanese Americans and those calls for reparations today? Wade Kojima: I can understand what they' ; re, what they' ; re thinking, but I think that time has passed on that. I think, you know I think some of, because you' ; re talking generations removed already, it would' ; ve been like their great-great-grandparents that were you know, slaves. And so I think it' ; s part of history, and I think we have to, we have to learn to, at least learn from that as well. I think, I think we forget about the educational piece sometimes. I mean I wish, I wish there was more education, as far as the camps were, you know, that were in, in history books. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah this project actually is funded, not directly from that Civil Liberties Public Education fund, but sort of an outgrowth of it. And so it' ; s from the National Park Service. Wade Kojima: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: And in some ways I see that the funding for this project is somewhat of a legacy of all the redress efforts too. So it' ; s kind of interesting to work on a project about redress that is, the funding is maybe helped, in part, by redress. So I think there are, there are funds that are specifically around teaching Japanese American incarceration history and redress history now. Wade Kojima: I mean I' ; m encouraged by the fact that they, you know like at the World War II Museum in New Orleans, they do have an area about camp in there. You know and, and there, we did go to the museum in Los Angeles as well. I' ; ve been there, but you know, and that has a lot more. And then in Hawaii, they have a plantation camp, which you can learn how the Japanese actually lived on the islands too. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it seems like there are a lot of, a lot more exhibits in recent years dedicated to teaching this history. Wade Kojima: Yes. And I think we should. You know I mean my wife' ; s father' ; s, my wife' ; s father' ; s family was in the camps in Arkansas, and I recently found out that my, one of my dad' ; s sisters' ; husband, his family, his family, he was actually in the same camps in Arkansas. And so I was talking to my cousin, and she was saying that she' ; d like to go visit there, and they have a small museum there and they have monuments, you know? Mary Doi: I' ; m going to interject here. There actually is a pilgrimage to Rohwer and Jerome this year, May 3rd through 6th. Wade Kojima: Okay. Mary Doi: And so I can email you contact information on that. Wade Kojima: That would be great. I' ; ve probably, I' ; ve been meaning to go there for quite a few years, ' ; cause it' ; s only about a two-and-a-half hour drive from my house. Mary Doi: It' ; s well worth it. Katherine Nagasawa: I think, Mary, you have like a really interesting question about what repair looks like. Do you want to, do you want to jump in and kind of ask that question? Something we' ; ve been asking a lot of people that we' ; ve been interviewing. Mary Doi: Yeah, you know, we call it redress and reparations. So in, in that term, ' ; reparations' ; , it implies a kind of repair. So do you feel like repair has happened for Japanese Americans, either those who were in camp or their descendants? Wade Kojima: You know, it can vary between... I mean I, I talk to my wife' ; s mother, who' ; s still alive, and while she won' ; t say anything bad about camp, but I can tell just the, her certain attitudes like at times, she' ; s missed out on things in life over the years, she' ; ll remember things. " ; I didn' ; t get to do that because of, you know because of the war." ; And I think that' ; s, I think for some Niseis, those kind of things have lingered on since childhood, or since you know, when they were young. So yes, we were taught, I mean I think all the Niseis were taught by their parents, that we have to you know, keep face, and we have to move on and do well for our families. And so I think, and that' ; s the way the Sanseis were taught, as well. You know, you can' ; t worry about everybody else. And so I think it' ; s hard to say. I think there' ; s, there were things, I think things did get repaired a little bit, but I think there was not enough talk with some of the generational things that went on, that, I think there was still pent-up anger from some of it. It' ; s hard for me to pinpoint everything, but I get that sense. Mary Doi: You know, I' ; m probably a little bit older than you, and I have a daughter who' ; s very involved in Chicago JACL, and then kind of the, something called Tsuru for Solidarity, which is a peaceful, you know, direct action organization nationwide that really has protested the separation of children from parents when you know, asylum seekers are in the U.S. Wade Kojima: Right. Mary Doi: One of the things that the Yonsei in her sphere talk about is intergenerational trauma. That is trauma that, even though we didn' ; t experience the camp, it' ; s passed down to us through our parents in an unspoken way, and, and from us to our own kids. So from Sansei who didn' ; t experience it, it' ; s transferred somehow to the Yonsei. And you see this in, also, studies of the Holocaust. I think that' ; s where you probably heard the phrase first, that intergenerational trauma about the Holocaust still exists, even like biochemically, it still exists. So this was a whole new idea for me. Does it resonate at all with you? Wade Kojima: I think they may be onto something there. I mean I do see that. I don' ; t necessarily know that, since my parents weren' ; t in camp, I don' ; t know if I you know, really have experienced that handed down, but I get the sense from, from my wife' ; s family, even, that, yes, there is, a lot of that has been passed down. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I had another question about, since you' ; re in the South and you' ; ve dealt with you know, Mississippi Swimming, et cetera. Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. Mary Doi: When you tell the story about incarceration, is it easy for people to understand how we are Americans? You know, we are not Japanese-Japanese, but we are Japanese American. Do they make that distinction and hold it in their thought process? Wade Kojima: A lot of them do, I mean, but it' ; s really hard sometimes down here. I mean, all right, so it depends on the age group you' ; re talking to. When we first moved down here, I had a realtor that was 70 years old, and she said to me, her comment to me was, " ; Well, you' ; re so much smarter than us." ; And I said, " ; What?" ; And it, and it was you know that Japanese people are smarter than you know Americans. And I said, " ; Well, that' ; s, that' ; s kind of a stereotype." ; Mary Doi: Right, right, right. Wade Kojima: And, and I try to you know, tell her, you know yes, you' ; re going to have, you' ; re going to have some that are, you know? But it' ; s just what they hear, you know. Mary Doi: Right. Wade Kojima: And the problem was, you know, when Nissan and Toyota and Honda moved into this country and established, you know the Japanese, that came over, they were so strict with their kids about going to Saturday class. You know or, like in Chicago, they have, they actually have that full-time Japanese school there. And so it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s about, everything is about getting good grades. It' ; s not about having fun in high school, it' ; s about getting into the best college you can. Mary Doi: Mm-hmm. I think sometimes people talk about the negative effect of positive stereotypes. I think that that' ; s something that exists. Wade Kojima: Yes, I would agree with that. Mary Doi: For example, I' ; m horrible at math and science, you know, and that' ; s certainly one of the stereotypes. Wade Kojima: It is. But you know, and the other stereotype about Asians and Japanese is you' ; re all professional. Doctors, attorneys, you know? We' ; re not all doctors and attorneys. Mary Doi: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: Let' ; s have one last question. It' ; s sort of a hypothetical, but I was thinking about your wife' ; s side of the family, and just how much time it took for people to really open up over the years, and even past the Civil Liberties Act, that it took time for people to process and, yeah, kind of go through that process of repair. How do you feel like your wife' ; s side of the family would' ; ve been, had redress never happened, had this process of talking about camp and receiving compensation and an apology just never happened? Wade Kojima: I wouldn' ; t want to even imagine that. I think you' ; d still have, I think some of the trauma passed down to generations might have been, would' ; ve been worse, I think. I mean there is some trauma, I mean I can see it. But I think it could, it could have been worse. And it' ; s, it' ; s hard to say. But I guess you know, and I, I guess I try to look at things a little more optimistically, and you know, we all have to put aside some of these things and, and move on. I mean if, when you start talking about passing it down to your kids like that, I have really worked hard to try to let my kids make their own decision. You know that they need to understand the consequences you know, but I' ; m not going to tell them what to do. And I think sometimes our, my parents pushed too hard in one direction, and I know my wife' ; s parents push too hard, too, you know, and you just get resentful, and... But you know, when you talk about the... I also hear, I got this from my older son. He said, " ; I don' ; t like the way you raised me," ; is what he said to me. And I said, well I said " ; We don' ; t know everything." ; And I said, " ; I didn' ; t like the way my parents raised me either, but I would never talk about it. I would, you know as far as I felt, I' ; m going to change it with my children. That' ; s how I viewed it." ; And I said, " ; If you didn' ; t like something I did, then you can change it when you have kids." ; So, I mean we have to move on, I think. We can' ; t forget, but we need to move on. Katherine Nagasawa: It reminds me a little bit about what you said about Hank over the phone, where you said you really admired parts of him and you took those to heart, but then you also didn' ; t like certain things about his leadership style, and that you learned from that as well, to not do that when you became a leader. Wade Kojima: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: So, I think it is that process of generation to generation, of honoring the people before you and taking those lessons that feel right, and then making your own, kind of forging your own path, too. Wade Kojima: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, do you have any last questions before we wrap? Mary Doi: This is a little bit of a, like housekeeping question. Are you still in touch with anybody involved with the JACL in Minneapolis? Wade Kojima: Off and on. I mean I, I go up to Minneapolis once, once a year. I always see Linda Hashimoto, or her married name is van Dooijeweert. But I see her all the time. And I haven' ; t seen, I haven' ; t seen Gloria Kumagai in a while, but she was the board president for a while. Tom Hara. I mean there' ; s a few people that I' ; ve, I' ; ve seen off and on, but I haven' ; t you know, really had a lot of contact with them. Mary Doi: I ask because we' ; re trying to find somebody in that chapter to talk with about-- Katherine Nagasawa: Redress. Mary Doi: ...redress movement in Minneapolis. So if you have any ideas, please pass them on! Wade Kojima: Oh, well, I think I can text you Linda Hashimoto' ; s cell number. Do you have that? Katherine Nagasawa: I don' ; t have that. Mary Doi: Yeah, so Kat will probably call that person. Wade Kojima: Okay. If, if anybody knows anything in Minneapolis, it' ; s Linda. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Wade Kojima: You know she, she volunteers on every single board, she' ; s on the St. Paul Arts Council, the Nagasaki Sister City board. She teaches Japanese dance still. You know so she' ; s involved with the community, so she knows everybody. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. That would be great. And she knows Jimmy Shimura too, which you said he was involved with redress? Wade Kojima: He was. I' ; m trying to think. The only family, the only person up there that I know of is Paul Teshima, and I can' ; t, I don' ; t know if I can get you his number or not, but his family and the Shimuras were real involved, but there aren' ; t anybody that... Oh, Jimmy Shimura still lives up there, so Linda could give you his number. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Wade Kojima: And I might even have it on my phone. I' ; ll have to look, ' ; cause... Katherine Nagasawa: That would be amazing. Wade Kojima: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: Thank you so much. Yeah, you have a, such an encyclopedic memory about people too, ' ; cause you knew so many of the people we asked you about Ohio, people in Ohio. So, thank you so much. Really helpful. Thank you. Mary Doi: Thank you. Wade Kojima: Yeah, if you have any other, you can always give me a call. I mean I' ; m... But say " ; Hi" ; to your father. I haven' ; t seen him in years. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, well if you' ; re ever in Southern California, let us know. I' ; m sure he' ; d love to catch up. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KojimaWade20230106.xml KojimaWade20230106.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Title
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Kojima, Wade (1/6/2023)
Description
An account of the resource
Wade Kojima, a Sansei with roots in Hawaii, describes his involvement in the JACL's redress efforts in Minnesota and Ohio. First via involvement with a Japanese American youth organization, and later as a board member of the Twin Cities JACL Chapter and Redress Chair of the Cleveland JACL Chapter, he shares his observations of the intergenerational dynamics between Nisei and Sansei at the time of the redress movement. He recalls the challenges of being an outsider trying to gain the trust of community members in Cleveland, the support he received from his wife's family, and the names of many individuals who were involved in redress efforts in the Midwest. He also discusses lessons learned about leadership styles and personal reflections on the subject of intergenerational trauma.
Date
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2023-01-06
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Nagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kudo, Eigo
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KudoEigo20221126.xml
Interview Keyword
Japanese Latin American
JLA
Japanese Peruvian
Peru
Panama
Seabrook Farms
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
CWRIC hearings
Testimony
Adios to Tears
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/26/2022 Kudo, Eigo (11/26/2022) 1:28:03 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Latin American JLA Japanese Peruvian Peru Panama Seabrook Farms Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians CWRIC hearings Testimony Adios to Tears Kudo, Eigo Nagasawa, Katherine video 1:|13(7)|19(5)|30(15)|39(4)|48(12)|55(11)|65(1)|74(9)|82(5)|92(2)|100(3)|106(14)|112(11)|120(3)|130(9)|137(17)|144(6)|150(12)|157(8)|165(2)|174(15)|182(13)|191(6)|197(7)|205(3)|213(13)|221(9)|229(4)|237(10)|245(10)|253(16)|261(12)|271(8)|278(14)|294(11)|309(12)|325(12)|334(14)|341(8)|348(11)|355(8)|368(5)|375(4)|381(10)|387(12)|394(6)|403(15)|417(7)|424(6)|432(1)|441(12)|465(14)|483(7)|496(7)|505(6)|511(13)|522(6)|529(6)|535(13)|541(12)|569(1)|603(8)|636(8)|673(6)|697(3)|749(8)|761(2)|766(10)|782(6)|789(8)|803(4)|832(11)|852(11)|867(14)|884(16)|893(8)|910(2)|924(6)|930(12)|955(2)|972(5)|990(5)|995(11)|1005(5)|1018(4)|1053(1)|1077(9) 0 https://vimeo.com/823067855 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/823067855?h=4945ff5109" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Eigo Kudo, a Peruvian of Japanese descent, describes his family's experience of expulsion from Peru and incarceration at Crystal City. He recalls with remarkable clarity the details of the journey by ship from Peru, through the Panama Canal, to the United States ; the emotions he experienced as a child being separated from first his father, and then his mother ; the conditions at Crystal City ; and his family's experience working at Seabrook Farms in New Jersey. He describes the difficulties Peruvian Japanese and Japanese Latin Americans faced during and after incarceration and the challenges they faced when seeking to be included in Japanese Americans' Redress efforts. He shares his direct experience testifying at the Chicago CWRIC hearings and subsequent efforts by his family to secure redress and reparations for Japanese Latin Americans, including the publication of his father-in-law Seiichi Higashide's memoir, " ; Adios to Tears." ; Katherine Nagasawa: Today is November 26th, 2022, and this oral history is being recorded at 301 Adobe Estates Drive in Vista, California. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa, and the interviewee is Eigo Kudo. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So could you start by telling me how you first heard about the redress movement, and how you got involved in it? Eigo Kudo: Well... Elsa Kudo: I used up all the cream, the half-and-half. Eigo Kudo: We were living in Honolulu then, and we heard that there was a movement for Japanese Americans to at least get something, I guess what you call redress. And we were also concerned, because we wanted to be included. But we were told by the political officers of Senator Matsunaga at that time that we will not be included because they cannot take a chance. If we go in there, there' ; s more chance of saying no. So my wife and I just gave up hope on that. And rightly so, because they were fighting for Japanese American side, not us. So we just gave up and said, " ; Okay, I hope they get what they want." ; So that was it. Katherine Nagasawa: Did you hear about redress from the JACL in Hawaii? Or do you remember exactly- Eigo Kudo: No, JACL never contacted us. We went through newspapers were mentioning about all this. So we talked to Senator Matsunaga' ; s office because he was one of the main person to put this into Congress. I was told by the office, not Senator Matsunaga, but Matsunaga' ; s office people told us that they didn' ; t want to take a chance by including us. So we understood. Katherine Nagasawa: So then how did you get involved in the CWRIC hearings in Chicago? Eigo Kudo: We heard about the hearing, that the Japanese Americans are going to have hearing as to how that happened, et cetera, and everybody' ; s comment, et cetera. So we wrote to Senator Inouye, saying, " ; Now, how can we get into this so that we can testify also?" ; And he wrote us back. He said, " ; Well, the next one, hearing, is Los Angeles. After that in San Francisco, I think Seattle was in there. And then Chicago and New York." ; Those were the last five. I don' ; t know where else he went. But Senator Inouye also said that we had to contact JACL so that we can get into any of the five. And we contacted JACL for the five places, and all five said no. Elsa Kudo: Meaning they were already- Eigo Kudo: Yeah, they just said no. And Elsa just happened to mention this to her brother Carlos in Chicago, and he said, " ; Well, I know this lady that' ; s doing all this programming very well, so I' ; ll ask her." ; So we said, " ; Yeah, good luck." ; And then Carlos called us back and he said, " ; Hey, I got you 15 minutes for three people." ; So I said, " ; Oh, okay." ; And we talked to Peruvian Issei in Chicago like Mr. Takeshita, Furuya, and Matsuda, and we told them, " ; So, Seiichi Higashide, me, and Elsa, the three of us will represent Peruvians." ; And all three of them agreed, because Papa Higashide, Seiichi Higashide, was leader for all this Peruvian group in Chicago anyway, and in Nisei, Elsa and I were the leading... Well, we' ; re always for the Peruvians, for meeting, et cetera. So we said, " ; The three of us will go, you think it' ; s okay?" ; And all three of them said, " ; Yeah, we' ; ll select you three anyway at any time." ; So we contacted a couple of others in L.A. and San Francisco, and they agreed that we three will represent. And that was one of your questions as to how we were selected, the three of us. But in any event, Elsa went on Friday, she flew with her father and mother and stayed with my brother and his wife. His wife is Elsa' ; s younger sister. Just for the benefit of your... There are four generation. Katherine Nagasawa: Brothers and sisters marrying each other? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My grandfather in the Kudo side and his younger brother married two sisters. My father and my mother got married, and my mother' ; s older brother married my father' ; s younger sister. And then we are married, and then our daughters are married to brothers. So that' ; s four generations. Kind of interesting, but that' ; s a side story. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Eigo Kudo: But anyway, our testimony... Oh, her brothers and sisters, and my sister and my brother were all rooting for us anyway, so I went there on Saturday. I left Friday night, because I had work to do and then arrived Saturday morning. I flew all night on United Airlines. And when I got there, Elsa said, " ; We still have the five minutes for the three of us." ; So that' ; s when I started writing my speech, and Elsa started hers, and then Papa Higashide started his. And he said to me, " ; I' ; m going to speak in Japanese. You think it' ; s all right?" ; I said, " ; Oh yeah, I' ; ll do the translating for you." ; And he said, " ; Oh yeah, okay." ; So he wrote it in Japanese, and then I wrote it in English, and I was supposed to give that English. When we got there, when I got there on Saturday, I was told by Elsa that they added three more people, two more people, and 15 more minutes. So I said, " ; Okay, we' ; ll keep our five minutes the way we planned and then let..." ; Because one of them was a Professor Gardiner, and we were very glad that he was there, because he was an authority on Peruvian... Elsa Kudo: Japanese. Eigo Kudo: Getting caught in Peru, and Japanese brought to the U.S. for prisoner exchange. You have to remember that we were supposed to be exchanged with prisoners caught in Philippines, 30,000 were prisoners in Japan, American soldiers. Originally, Roosevelt said, " ; Hell, we got 120,000 in our camp, use them to..." ; And all the advisors said, " ; No, we cannot do that because more than half are American citizens, and the rest are all, what we call ' ; legal aliens.' ; " ; So he said, " ; Okay, then get some Japanese from some other place." ; And that' ; s how we got caught. Argentina, Brazil, and Chile said, " ; No way you' ; re going to get any of our people." ; Then he went to Peru, and Manuel Prado was the first one said, " ; Yeah, I' ; ll give you Japanese." ; And then Roosevelt told them, " ; You can keep all their assets." ; So they started to take our assets and all our bank accounts were frozen and we couldn' ; t take them out. And eventually, they took it over. So we never got it back. My sister was a Peruvian citizen, because she was born in Peru, so she had her savings account, and that was the only money that we had. My brother and I were too young to have bank account, so... Lot of people don' ; t realize that we lost a lot of assets that we had. My father owned an import-export business and he had wholesale outlet and then a retail outlet in another place. And we imported silk from Japan, cotton from U.S., and wool from England. And those were the main products. And then we started to bring in ceramics like Kutani from Japan. And oh, we sold many, many items to prominent Peruvians because they loved Japanese ceramics. And it took a year and a half for my father' ; s assets to be sold out. A year and a half. In December of 1943, finally, we had no more assets at all because finally all the items are sold. During that time, the government people get into the cashier box, and when we sell, they keep the money, and at the end of the day, they give my father the allowance and all the payment to the employees. And we never saw any income cash from day one. So my father said, " ; Okay, so we' ; re finished. So I guess I better get used to the 50-kilo suitcase." ; And he used to practice at home. In December he started and then he got arrested on January. And then all of us would take bento at night. My mother would make, and we used to go there to the jail because that was the only way that we can talk to our father was he used to write us letters in a empty bento box. So we used to love that. And I saw her for the first time in that jail. My mother said, " ; That' ; s Mrs Higashide, and oldest daughter, Yukiko." ; I said, " ; Oh." ; But I was 10 and she was seven, and at that age, you know... Katherine Nagasawa: You don' ; t care. Eigo Kudo: But anyway, I knew who she was, I knew who the mother was, and her father and my father were cellmates during that period in Peru. And one night, the night of the 17th, we went and the guard said, " ; There' ; s no Mr. Kudo" ; in Spanish. So my mother says, " ; There' ; s no Mr. Kudo?" ; He says, " ; No." ; So my mother says, " ; Oh, we got to go to Callao." ; Which is a seaport. And we started to go out and catch a cab and then we saw a big truck coming out with Japanese people in it. So my mother said to the cab driver, " ; Follow that big van." ; And we did. And oh, they were waving to us, but we couldn' ; t see my father. He was not sitting toward the end, but we assumed he was in there. And when we got to Callao, the big gate was closed and they were able to go in, but our cab couldn' ; t. They said no. So we had to go home. So we didn' ; t know where he was taken or anything. And on February 1st, we got a telegram from Spanish Embassy. Our telephone was taken over by the government too, so we didn' ; t have a telephone anymore. So all we got was a telegram saying, " ; Come to the Spanish Embassy and see Minister such, such and such." ; So the four of us went, my sister, my brother, myself, and my mother. And they told us, " ; We don' ; t know where your husband is, but we can tell you that he' ; s probably somewhere between here and the United States, and somewhere in territory of U.S., because we know that he was taken toward United States. Now, the United States want the family if you want to get on the ship on March 1st. But you could only take 50 kilo of clothing for you, Mrs. Kudo, and you -- my older sister." ; And then for my brother and I were 25 kilo each. So we were 150 kilo of clothing only. So we couldn' ; t take anything else, just clothing. And we measured, we weigh it and everything, and we went to Callao, the port, in March 1st, and they weighed our stuff and they said, " ; Oh, perfect, 150." ; So they were able to put it on the ship. All those other Japanese Peruvians that had more than their weight, they had to take out, so that their weight will be limited. So I know these people took out the sheets and took the clothing out and gave it back to the government people so they can tell their relatives to take this back. We were separated. My brother and I had to go, and we had to go to the stairway to the ship and they frisked us and they took our pen, the watch, everything that' ; s not on the body. And they said, " ; Put it in an envelope and put your name on an envelope and then we will give it back to you next week. We' ; re going to first see that you don' ; t have anything explosive or anything dangerous." ; And so I put my pen, my mechanical pencil, my watch, everything. And one week later when we got it, we got everything back. Nothing was lost. Isn' ; t it terrific? I guess that' ; s U.S., because other countries, we probably wouldn' ; t have half of the stuff back. So my brother and I were taken to the head of the ship, and then all the way to the bottom, and all the men were there. And there were several kids, but their fathers were there. We were the only small children without father because my father was already taken away. Katherine Nagasawa: How old were you and how old was your brother? Eigo Kudo: Ten and seven. No, 10 and 13. That' ; s it. I was 10 and my brother was 13. And I said, " ; You think Mother and Sister will be all right?" ; He says, " ; Oh yeah, don' ; t worry. When we get off the ship, we' ; ll join them. So don' ; t worry." ; But I cried all night because I was scared. And to go to meals, MP with a carbine would be following us to go to mess hall. You go to mess hall, you eat standing up, because these are transport ships for soldiers. So after I put the tray on the table, I never saw the food because I couldn' ; t reach it. So all I did was I opened my mouth and then just shoved. So I got the cocktail fruit first, the canned ones, and then the food will... It was horrible. And about week later, one of the Filipino cooks came out, and he took me to the side and he said -- and it was by the window so I could see the food. And I went there every day after that for meal time, so I could at least see what I was eating. But two days after we left, that was March 1st. So March 3rd, all the Japanese men said to the captain, " ; These two boys don' ; t have their father here. All the rest of the children have fathers here, so why don' ; t you take them back to the women' ; s side, so that they can be with their mother?" ; So the captain agreed. So we were sent back to... And that' ; s when I saw my brother -- my sister, and my mother. So we stayed there. Now, the men were in the front at the bottom, and then the women were at the bottom on the back. All the rest with small children were on the deck where the officers usually stay. So they had a window, they were able to get out to the deck. We couldn' ; t get out to the deck because you got to go about three stairways. And then to go to the cafeteria, we had to go that way, because the cafeteria was about one or two floors after the deck. And the meals were really something because we only had one fruit a day. The veggies were never raw, and it was always orange. So, that was the only raw fruit or veggies. So we always ate the one orange, so that at least we don' ; t get beriberi, I guess. Then on the March 6th, we arrived to Balboa in Panama. That' ; s the port that' ; s on the Pacific side where the Canal is. And we stopped there. And so my brother and I went up to the cafeteria and ate breakfast. And we went up to the deck, and we saw bunch of trucks lined up and we see Japanese men. So my brother said, " ; Hey, maybe Papa is there." ; I said, " ; Yeah!" ; So we yell, " ; Papa, Papa!" ; And my brother said, " ; Oh, that' ; s stupid. Everybody' ; s probably ' ; Papa,' ; so we' ; re going to yell Kudo." ; So I said, " ; Okay." ; So we go, " ; 1, 2, 3." ; And it was, " ; ichi, ni, san." ; But then we said, " ; Kudo, Kudo, Kudo!" ; And my father stuck his face from the truck like this. And he saw us and he said...[waves] So we said, " ; Oh, he' ; s alive." ; So we ran down to my mother' ; s, where she was, and we said, " ; Hey, we saw Papa in the truck." ; So my mother says, " ; You did?" ; So she spoke good Spanish, so we went up to the captain, and the captain was from Puerto Rico, Teniente Soto. And she told him that her husband will be coming aboard, can we see him? So he said, " ; Well, let me first I have to sign for all the prisoners. And then after that I' ; ll come and get you here in the captain' ; s room." ; So we waited in the captain' ; s room. About an hour later, he came back and then he says, " ; Okay, let' ; s go down." ; And then he told him, " ; Señor Kudo, K-U-D-O." ; And they all go out. And then my father came out and he went [waves]. So I thought, " ; Oh my God, he' ; s here." ; And we waited and then he came up the stairs and oh, we hugged. Yeah, that was the only time we saw my father inside the ship. In any event, on the sixth they told us everybody got to stay down there and don' ; t come out to the deck because we were going through the Canal. So I wanted to see how the Canal worked because I knew how it worked because I read it in a Japanese book. So there' ; s a street car that' ; s on both sides, they pull the ship into the Canal. And sure enough, the street car was there. And I told my brother, I said, " ; The street car is there." ; He says, " ; Oh yeah, there it is, pulling." ; And then we got into Gatun Lake and my brother said, " ; Oh, this is a lake, so let' ; s forget it. Let' ; s go down." ; So we went down. And then on the 9th, we were still in Colón. That' ; s the entrance to the Canal on the Atlantic side. And we were there for three days and we couldn' ; t figure out why we were just stopped there. And then the morning of the 9th after breakfast, we went to the deck and I realized that now we' ; re in a convoy. That' ; s what we were waiting for, the convoy to develop. There were about 12 ships, but we were on the side. So I told my brother, I said, " ; Hey, if the U-boat comes, they' ; re going to fire at us first." ; Because the three in the middle were really sunk down. So they must have been carrying a lot of valuable stuff. And they were right in the middle, and there were four ships, and we were one of the four on the side. But fortunately, U-boat didn' ; t come around, so we made it to New Orleans. The morning of the 21st, after breakfast, we went out to the deck and all the water was muddy water. So my brother says, " ; This is funny." ; So I said, " ; Must be a river." ; And I said, " ; If it' ; s a river here," ; I said, " ; Mississippi is the only big one here." ; So my brother said, " ; Yeah, got to be Mississippi." ; And then they told us, " ; Okay, everybody get ready, tomorrow we' ; ll be going into New Orleans and all you people will be getting off. So pack everything and wear the heaviest coat, et cetera, because from here on, you' ; ll be traveling to the camp." ; So I was the first one to get out. I' ; m always first, I like to be. So anyway, so the four of us went down and I was following this leader. It was an MP, and he took us to one big building, and then they told us, " ; Take off all your clothes and put it in the basket." ; So we did, and we all had to take a shower. And my sister says to me, " ; Eigo, I want you to stay in front of me and when we walk, don' ; t walk fast because I' ; ll be right behind you." ; So her friend, she stayed in her back, so nobody can see her front of the body in the... And that' ; s how we walked. And one of the ladies in a bathing suit grabbed me and they started to wash me, and I thought, " ; I can wash myself," ; in Japanese. And she didn' ; t understand. And so I said it in Spanish, and she didn' ; t understand. I didn' ; t know a word of English, so I couldn' ; t say anything else. Anyway, she finished washing me. So after we washed, we had to dry ourselves. And after we dried, they threw DDT to us, our hair, all over our body. So it all was white. And then they gave us our basket of clothing, and that was all white with DDT. So we had to get the powder off so we can get our clothing. And there' ; s a funny story in there. My brother says to me after we got on, he said, " ; Hey, there' ; s a line over there, they' ; re giving something. So let' ; s line up over there." ; And we lined up and it was all just ladies. So my brother realized, so he said, " ; Okay, Eigo, I want you to just get that, and then wipe your nose and then throw it away." ; So I said, " ; Oh, why?" ; He said, " ; Just do as I say." ; So my brother did that, so I did that, and we came out and I told him, I said, " ; What in the world was that?" ; He says, " ; You' ; re too young, so I' ; ll tell you in a couple of years." ; And it was Kotex. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh no! So you blew your nose... Eigo Kudo: So I didn' ; t know. And a couple of years later, he told me in camp and I started to laugh. I said, " ; Oh my God, is that why we did that?" ; And after we ate our fast lunch, we were taken to our train and we had our number here. And I figured that out finally when he said, " ; This way." ; So I follow and to this train car here. So I went in and I see that' ; s number 12 and my first number was 12. So I said, " ; Oh, this must be our seating." ; And sure enough, we walked, and my father was waiting on his seat, which was right next to us. And then the first meal was that night in a train. It was a Pullman, it was a beautiful train. And they told us, " ; Okay, car number 12, you' ; re next." ; So my mother says, " ; Oh, they' ; re telling us that we got to go to the dining car." ; So we went and we saw this cup with celery and carrots, and we haven' ; t seen any fresh veggies in three weeks. So, the three of us ate with, we didn' ; t even give it to my parents. So the guy said, " ; Don' ; t worry, don' ; t worry." ; I guess that' ; s what he was saying. Then he brought two more glass food over there. So we gave one cup to my folks and then we, three of us, finished that cup also. Then we had a dinner and it was... Oh, that Pullman train breakfast, lunch, and dinner were beautiful. Really well done. And the morning of the 23rd, we were awakened, and they told us we' ; ll go to breakfast inside the camp, so get ready to get off and pack up. So that' ; s what we had to do. And then we got into a bus and they took us in. Katherine Nagasawa: How much knowledge... You were only 10 years old. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: How aware were you of what was happening? Eigo Kudo: Oh. Katherine Nagasawa: What did you think was happening at that time? Eigo Kudo: Oh, I love history and geography. And something like that, I want to always remember. That' ; s why I can give you in detail what happened those 23 days. But I guess now I look back, I was probably the only one that remember everything like that. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what your parents' ; reactions were? Did they ever explain to you- Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: ... what was happening? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. My father used to include me in every discussion with the family when I was only 10. But I listened, and I probably remember more in detail than my brother and sister. When we talk about our coming here and I explain, and my sister and my brother says, " ; Boy, you really remember well." ; But they say, " ; Oh yeah, I remember that too now, yeah." ; When I mention it, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: You' ; re helping to jog their memory, is that it? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. So did you know you were part of a prisoner exchange program? Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: You knew? Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Because my father was one of the Peruvian Japanese leaders. And when we went there about second or third day, my father was called by the warden, and he came back and he told us that we were on the first list if there' ; s an exchange with a prisoner to prisoner. And I guess we were one of those in the prominent Japanese list, so we were in it. And O' ; Rourke, the warden, told my father that, " ; Your family is on the first ship." ; Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Eigo Kudo: See, actually, there were two transport ships between United States and Japan. One was in January of 1942, which included all of the government dignitaries, like Consul-General, and all those people who worked in the Consul-General' ; s office from almost every country in South America, in Central America. They left New York and all the diplomats of U.S. from Japan, they met in Madagascar, and then they exchanged the people, and the ships were supposed to be lit up, and nobody' ; s supposed to attack them. And that was safely. And the next one was, I think, in the spring of 1942, another ship exchange. And that included school teachers, doctors, and all those people that was from South America and Central America. Not from the United States, because they were on the 120,000 relocation camp people. So the other day we received a note, see if we know anybody on the second exchange and so on. But I know two families. One was a doctor and the other one was a businessman, and they were on it. And in the Peruvian case, like my father and her [Elsa' ; s] father and so on, they had what they called a long-term visa because they had business there. And the short-term visa are the Bank of Tokyo branch in Lima. So those branch people from Japan had what they called a short-term visa. So they were on the first and second ships. So we were never included on the second exchange ones, but we were being in the first available prisoner exchange, if there was one. But we were told in November of ' ; 44, in October of ' ; 44, that Japan found out that the people in Crystal City included old people, women, and children for exchange with American soldiers. So they said, " ; We don' ; t trade soldier with the common people." ; So O' ; Rourke, the warden, told us, " ; You have to stay for the duration of the war." ; So we knew we were going to stay until the end of the war. Katherine Nagasawa: So over two years then, right? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: More than two years. Eigo Kudo: Except in December of 1945, the first ship went out from Crystal City. We had to be taken to Seattle and then they put on the ship and go back to Japan. And almost all, except for the... We were close to about 1,997 Peruvian Japanese in Santa Fe, the single people, and Crystal City, the family people. And those two combined, 384 of us said, " ; No, we' ; re not going back to Japan." ; My father told me, he said, " ; We' ; re not going back, because I have a home in Yokohama, and Mother has home in Tokyo, and they probably is flattened with bombing. So how can we go back now, the five of us, and say, ' ; Feed us?' ; " ; So my father said, " ; We' ; re going to stay at least for three years, hopefully for five, and then we go back." ; So we had no choice, really. So I said " ; Okay," ; and my brother said, " ; Okay," ; and my sister said, " ; Okay." ; Then for us to be released, the U.S. said, " ; You guys are going to be released as illegal aliens and you will not receive one penny of welfare." ; And that was the reason they put us into illegal aliens. Illegal aliens cannot get any welfare. So anyway, they said, " ; You have to get a supporter in the U.S. to get out." ; Now, we don' ; t know anybody in the U.S. So most of us from Peru couldn' ; t go out except for three or four families. One had a sister in Denver, Tawara-san, and so they said, " ; Oh yeah, we' ; ll take care of the whole family and we' ; ll support them." ; So they were able to go. So now the rest were church involved and so on, and three or four or five family left. So we couldn' ; t go anywhere until a guy named Seabrook came from New Jersey and said, " ; If you come to work in our place, I' ; ll be your supporter." ; But for each worker, you could only have one dependent. So, a family with two children were automatically allowed to go to Seabrook if they both signed that they' ; ll work at Seabrook. So in our family, with my two parents saying, okay, that there were three of us, so they said, " ; Well, your daughter is 17 or 18, so she can work." ; So she said, " ; Yeah, I' ; ll work then, then we can get out of here." ; So that' ; s how we got out. Now, Elsa' ; s family had parent and five children, so they were not allowed to go to Seabrook. So, all the single people were allowed to go if they signed that they' ; ll work. So we left in August of 1946, took three days to go to Seabrook, and then we started working and our parents started working and everything worked out beautifully. And all the Peruvians were hard workers, so Seabrook said, " ; Oh, if they work like that, maybe even if they have more than two dependents, maybe it' ; s okay." ; So they were allowed to come. So they came in September. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. I see. Eigo Kudo: But being illegal alien, our salary or earnings, 30% were taken away by U.S., IRS, and we cannot file tax returns, so we don' ; t get any benefit or deductions. And it still is that way, our tax situation. If you don' ; t file tax return, they' ; ll take out 30%. But any other income, you get 30% off too. If you had interest income coming, then that' ; s 30% also goes to the government. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: So you faced so many challenges for years after the camps, because -- You faced many different financial challenges after the camps because- Eigo Kudo: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: ... of being quote, unquote, " ; illegal alien" ; . Eigo Kudo: Yeah. And we were told working in that kind of condition, where my father worked, and my brother, and my sister, and my mother worked, and they worked 12 hours a day. And then every two weeks, the shift changed. So our family, my mother told me, she said, " ; Eigo, you' ; re the first one home, so you' ; ll do all the cooking and all the purchasing." ; So my mother took me to the market and told me how to choose veggies and meat and all this. And that' ; s when I started cooking -- I was 13 -- for the family. And my sister would say to me, " ; Eigo, that was a good meal. Thank you." ; And you know, that feels good. And I always thought, " ; Boy..." ; That' ; s why when we got married and she would make something and it' ; s good, I tell her, " ; Oh, that was good!" ; Because it feels good to hear that to the person cooking. I learned that when I was starting to cook. But my first rice, I burned the daylights out of it. We didn' ; t have the electric gohan maker, so you had to know when to knock it down. And we were playing baseball, and every inning I' ; d come back. And we batted too long, and the whole thing was black. And it was hard for us to buy because that was a meal for five of us. And I burned the whole thing. That' ; s a whole day' ; s... So my brother came home because he had to go to extra study for the English. So he said, " ; Oh, Eigo, I' ; ll wash this, and you start on another pot because they' ; ll be home soon." ; So I did, and I told my mother, I said, " ; I burned that thing, and I' ; m sorry, I lost the whole day' ; s rice." ; She said, " ; That' ; s all right. Just don' ; t let it happen again." ; And I haven' ; t to this day. I never burned anything after that. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s a lot of responsibility though, for somebody who' ; s 13, to have to feed the whole family. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. But, you start to feel... First I started with onion and the cheapest meat was hotdog. So I used to cut it, and saute, and then put shoyu on it. And I make salad, cut the lettuce and so on. And each time, I wanted to do something better. Katherine Nagasawa: Continually improve? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I know you write about a lot of this in your testimony. You talk about your dad being a business owner in Peru. Eigo Kudo: A what? Katherine Nagasawa: You talk about a lot of this story in your testimony that you gave during the five minutes. And five minutes is such a short amount of time to have to tell this whole story. Can you tell me what it was like to have to write it out? What did you want to make sure you... What kind of message did you want to come across? Eigo Kudo: On the testimony? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, because you had to tell this whole story in only five minutes, right? Eigo Kudo: I figure the three of us will have something and Professor Gardiner will cover all of the technical things, how much we lost and so on. So I didn' ; t have to go too much in detail. I just told them my father was a import-export businessman and he had a great life going until the war started and the government took over, and we lost everything. But that write up on that testimony has a copy of my speech. So you can take a look at it, I can' ; t remember in detail now, but- Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I have it printed, if you want to look? Eigo Kudo: Oh, that' ; s good. Katherine Nagasawa: I was curious, did you guys practice delivering it in the days leading up to the actual hearing? Eigo Kudo: No. Katherine Nagasawa: You didn' ; t? Eigo Kudo: We didn' ; t practice or anything. I was pretty much involved with many things in Hawaii, and I was very active in the Chamber of Commerce, so I made a lot of speeches, and I made a lot of speeches in Japanese, too. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: How about Seiichi Higashide? Did you help him with his speech? Did you help him to write it? Eigo Kudo: No. He wanted to write his speech in Japanese, and I just translated it. And that translation is in that book, yeah. And Elsa told her story, you know what it looks like, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. What do you remember from the day of the hearings? What was the room like? Do you remember anything about what it was like to testify and deliver it to the Commission? Eigo Kudo: Well, I figure if I do a good job, at least I' ; ll get on the record. Whether that' ; s successful for us to get something, was something else. I just wanted to get in and say.. You see, when I was in Hawaii, I was asked to talk about our plight, the Peruvian plight. And so I did, and a American old man stood up. He said, " ; I don' ; t want you to tell lies. We Americans don' ; t do such things, so deny it!" ; I said, " ; I cannot deny it because I went through it. Whether you believe me or not, I don' ; t care. But my speech still goes as is." ; And I hope he reads that and I testify that, you know. But I don' ; t know who the old man was, anyway. Yeah. So whether they believe me or not, I don' ; t care. I wanted to get on the record, what gets printed by the government, that this is what I said. And I got on there. So I was satisfied with that. Yeah, if it goes through, that' ; s fine. But when Reagan told everybody about what we' ; re getting, the Japanese Americans were getting, so her father said to us, " ; Why don' ; t we write a letter telling about our plight, and why we' ; re not included?" ; So we wrote it in English and I explained to Papa Higashide in Japanese. I said, " ; This is what we' ; re going to say. Do you agree?" ; He says, " ; Oh yeah, a hundred percent." ; So we printed three letters the same. And then she signed one, and I signed one, and my father-in-law signed his, yeah. And we sent it to Ronald Reagan. And boy, he wrote us back right away, and said... What was his name? That guy that Reagan' ; s group know? Elsa Kudo: Oh, Robert Bratt? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. He told us that, " ; Mr. Bratt will be going to Hawaii and wants to see you, so please make sure you see him." ; So when he came, we called him, and said, " ; We' ; re the one that President Reagan said..." ; He said, " ; Oh yeah, oh yeah, Mr. Kudo, I really want to see you, and your wife, and your father-in-law." ; So, we three of us went to his office and we talked, and he asked me, " ; How can you prove that when you were given Green Card, that it started from March 21st, the day you came into New Orleans?" ; So I said, " ; Oh, my mother has a Green Card." ; So we took my mother' ; s Green Card and it had started in March 21st, 1944. I said, " ; That' ; s the day we arrived in New Orleans." ; And hers [Elsa' ; s] was in July 1, 1944. But we were already citizens, so we didn' ; t have any. So I said to Mr. Bratt, I said, " ; We have a record in the FBI, and that mentions all our plight and so on." ; So he said, " ; Thank you very much." ; So he contacted FBI and what he got was the same thing as Professor Gardiner had. Yeah. So that proved that we all got our Green Card at that time. It took us 10 years to get it. But I was already in the Army. And all of us got the $20,000 also, because of that. And many Peruvians got married to Japanese Americans, and they were told, " ; You won' ; t be illegal alien if you go across Detroit and come back from Canada and that' ; s the day that you' ; re going to get your Green Card from." ; So, many did. So they didn' ; t get the $20,000. So when the second group of Peruvians said, " ; What about us?" ; And then we also said, " ; What about those people that went to Japan in August, I mean December of ' ; 45?" ; So they said, " ; Well, they should be included also." ; So Elsa, and by that time we had met Grace Shimizu, so she and Elsa went to Japan, and went from city to city where Peruvians were to explain what to do to get the $5,000. Katherine Nagasawa: So you were the only ones to get the $20,000? Eigo Kudo: No, no, there were many of us. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Because you were able to prove your entry date? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, the day that we came to the U.S. was, the Green Card said that' ; s when you came, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: What year was this, that you figured this out? Was it 1988 or was it later than that? Eigo Kudo: Right, 1988. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, because because you wrote to Ronald Reagan. Eigo Kudo: Right, right. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, I see, okay. Do you know about how many Peruvians were able to get eligibility? Eigo Kudo: Oh, God. Elsa Kudo: I don' ; t know. Eigo Kudo: I don' ; t know either. Katherine Nagasawa: Would you say the majority, or only a small number? Eigo Kudo: Only small, because many people got married to Americans. Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah. And they reentered, because that' ; s what they were told. That they could become citizens after. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: So it' ; s just one of those quirks, unfortunately. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. So I have no idea, because we know Peruvians in Chicago because we were there and we were invited to the wedding, so we know that. But like San Francisco or L.A., we don' ; t know who got married when to whom. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Eigo Kudo: So, it' ; s very tough. Katherine Nagasawa: But the Civil Liberties Act did not include Japanese Latin Americans originally. Elsa Kudo: No. Eigo Kudo: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember how you felt when that passed? Were you surprised that it didn' ; t include your community, or did you know that it was not going to be inclusive? Eigo Kudo: What was that question? Katherine Nagasawa: When the Civil Liberties Act passed, were you surprised that Japanese Latin Americans were not included in it? Eigo Kudo: Oh, that we are not included? Katherine Nagasawa: In the Civil Liberties Act, yeah. Eigo Kudo: No, because I knew they were -- because I talked to Senator Matsunaga after that thing came out in 1987 or ' ; 8, yeah, and Matsunaga told me, he says, " ; I never considered you at all from the beginning because we didn' ; t think we' ; ll have a chance if you were put in there." ; Katherine Nagasawa: So, even though you testified at the Chicago hearings, you didn' ; t expect to be included? Eigo Kudo: No, no. Katherine Nagasawa: You just wanted your story to tell. Eigo Kudo: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: I see, okay. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Eigo Kudo: I was surprised that we got the $20,000. I still don' ; t understand that. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I didn' ; t realize that either. Yeah. Elsa Kudo: A few of us got it because we proved that we were here in 1944. When I saw his mother, my mother-in-law, card she carried with her, that' ; s a Green Card, actually. And it says 1944. So I said, " ; Oh, we may have a chance." ; So that' ; s why we... Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, wow. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. We took Grandma to meet Mr. Bratt too. I said, " ; See?" ; Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s amazing. Elsa Kudo: " ; We should be included." ; Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s amazing you kept the card too, you still had it. Elsa Kudo: Yeah, that she had it, chanto. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: Daiji. Katherine Nagasawa: Amazing. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what you did with your $20,000? Eigo Kudo: What? Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what you did with your $20,000? Eigo Kudo: I put it in a savings account. That' ; s all I did. Elsa Kudo: Actually, didn' ; t we then use it for the publication of Adios to Tears? Katherine Nagasawa: Oh! Elsa Kudo: The first 2000 batch, we did it ourselves. And then... Eigo Kudo: That' ; s right, yeah. Elsa Kudo: And then after that, I went to University of Hawaii to see if they would be interested. And they said, " ; It' ; s so interesting, but we' ; re already no finance," ; right? And so then... What was that lady' ; s name? Eigo Kudo: Oh, the University of Washington, yeah. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Press, I went to them. I can' ; t remember her name. It starts with a P. You know she passed away since, but she said, " ; Yeah, send the book." ; Katherine Nagasawa: Oh. Elsa Kudo: Not the book. What is it called? Katherine Nagasawa: The manuscript? Elsa Kudo: Yeah, manuscript. And she said, " ; That is so interesting." ; So they got interested in it. So they did publish. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; ll have to ask you about that during our interview, because that' ; s interesting. So that' ; s something tangible that came out of the $20,000, yeah. It helped. Elsa Kudo: Yes. Because we finished it ourselves. Eigo Kudo: Yeah, I forgot about that. Elsa Kudo: Yeah, we sold it. We were everything. The publisher... Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: The sellers, the senders. With each packet, we had to send it out for those interested. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I see. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. She did a great job on that. Katherine Nagasawa: Incredible. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Incredible. I just want to do a time check. So we' ; ve talked for about an hour. I wanted to ask you about the Campaign for Justice and some- Eigo Kudo: I don' ; t know too much about... Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, would you know more about the campaign? Elsa Kudo: I know a little bit more, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Elsa Kudo: Because of Grace. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Can I ask you about Mochizuki? Do you remember that? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, I know her. Elsa Kudo: Carmen, yeah. Eigo Kudo: I knew her from camp. Katherine Nagasawa: And the lawsuit? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Yeah, I was just wondering how you felt about the verdict for Mochizuki? Eigo Kudo: Well... Katherine Nagasawa: Did you take the $5,000? Eigo Kudo: Well, see, I wish they all got $20,000. And it' ; s a shame that we are such a small group that they say, " ; Oh, the $5,000 should be enough." ; And I think everybody just forget about us. And each time our... I' ; m one of the last surviving Peruvians, and I' ; m 89, and it' ; s... Politically, we don' ; t have much power. If we were a large group, you do have political power. So as they say in Japanese, " ; shikata ga nai." ; Cannot be helped. So I don' ; t feel bitter or anything. We' ; re not very powerful in politics at all. So no sense in being teed off at anybody because I' ; m going to be the loser. I serve in the U.S. Army, and I don' ; t feel bitter toward the U.S. I do against Roosevelt, but then he' ; s dead. So my father says, " ; Let' ; s forget it because he' ; s dead." ; And I agree. Because no sense in hanging this on until I die. What for? Yeah. So somebody asked me about that, and I just said, " ; I' ; ll be the loser if I keep blaming somebody." ; It' ; s time to forget it, after a while. Katherine Nagasawa: It seems like you don' ; t want to hold onto resentment- Eigo Kudo: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: ... into your old age. Eigo Kudo: No, no sense. Yeah. I' ; m getting too old for that. Katherine Nagasawa: True. I was wondering though, obviously there wasn' ; t full justice, right? The $5,000, $20,000, it doesn' ; t fully compensate what your family lost and what you endured. But if you could imagine what true redress would mean for you, what would that look like? What would true redress have looked like, if it had happened? Eigo Kudo: I don' ; t know how you can put dollars or anything on it. Even $20,000 is an arbitrary number. Yeah. Somewhere you got to say, " ; Oh, that should be it." ; I didn' ; t expect any. But I got $20,000, so I was that much ahead. But U.S. probably the only one that would do that, though. I don' ; t see any other country doing that. Did you know that the San Francisco Treaty was signed by Japan, and that included the Japanese nationals who lost assets in other countries, should be reimbursed by Japan? Yeah. And Japan went to Peru and wanted all the records of the Kudo family, and they said, " ; We have none." ; Yeah. So they came back and they wrote us, and said, " ; They have no record of you owning anything." ; They said they don' ; t have any records. Katherine Nagasawa: Of your dad' ; s business? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. So we got $100 from Japan. My father received his $100, and I was already working as a CPA. And I asked the tax department, " ; Do I include that for my father' ; s income?" ; And they all said, " ; Boy, this is a great challenge." ; So they researched, and they came to conclusion that it does not go in to the income. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, $100. Oh my goodness. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. But isn' ; t that something? Peru saying that they don' ; t have any record? Elsa Kudo: Of course not. Katherine Nagasawa: Of course they don' ; t, yeah. Oh my. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: Can my daughter... Can we have lunch at 12:00? Katherine Nagasawa: Definitely. What time is it right now? Elsa Kudo: It' ; s quarter to. So my daughter' ; s going to get something. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; d be great. Elsa Kudo: So then we' ; ll... Katherine Nagasawa: We' ; ll have a lunch? Definitely, okay. Eigo Kudo: Oh, I' ; m sorry it took so long. Katherine Nagasawa: No, it' ; s okay! I' ; m so glad you remember so many details, it' ; s incredible. Your memory is so sharp. I was curious, do you know if your parents were alive for the 1988 Civil Liberties Act, or did they receive any of the settlements? Eigo Kudo: My father was already dead. He died in 1984. So my mother received the $20,000. Seiichi Higashide and Angelica, her [Elsa' ; s] mother and father, they received the $20,000, and all the brothers and sisters who were old enough to be in camp, they received. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Eigo Kudo: Yeah, because we proved that on the FBI, that our Green Card show the day we arrived to New Orleans as a starting date, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Eigo Kudo: I still don' ; t understand that, but that' ; s something else. Katherine Nagasawa: I think, just a couple final questions. I was wondering, what do you think that the Japanese Latin American redress movement can teach other communities today that are fighting for their own redress or reparations? Are there any lessons? Eigo Kudo: Oh boy. We are very unique. I don' ; t think anytime else in the U.S. they brought Japanese from other countries to here for the exchange. Elsa Kudo: And I think- Eigo Kudo: So- Elsa Kudo: ... one of the big things is that none of us wanted to come here. We were forced to come. That' ; s the difference. Nobody wanted to come. We all had very comfortable lives. Eigo Kudo: See, it' ; s like Al Capone, you know? You get the old man and take him out, and we don' ; t know where he' ; s taken. So then they say to the family, " ; Do you want to go together?" ; And my mother said, " ; Yeah, we' ; re going to die together then." ; That' ; s why we decided. Her [Elsa' ; s] mother was pregnant, almost giving the... Elsa Kudo: Fifth child. Eigo Kudo: Yeah, fifth child. So she couldn' ; t get onto the March 1st boat when we went, because the baby was born on the 4th, right? Elsa Kudo: Yeah, my sister, little sister. Eigo Kudo: So they were on the next ship in late June, and then arrived in Crystal City on July 1. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. Eigo Kudo: So I don' ; t know if going back even to history, I don' ; t think some of the Japanese from Peru was ever taken a place where you brought from another country to the U.S. So I have never thought about it. But you think back, we' ; re so rare that... Yeah, it' ; s good to know in history that they did happen so that another person will not happen again. It' ; s very doubtful though. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: You' ; re saying almost as a warning, to not repeat the same thing using people and families as exchange, prisoner exchange. Eigo Kudo: Yeah. But I wish our numbers were larger, so that everybody... Elsa Kudo: That way... Eigo Kudo: Yeah, but it' ; s too bad. It' ; s less than 2000. Yeah. Elsa Kudo: 1800 something. Katherine Nagasawa: Well, I guess maybe when it comes to sharing the story, and making sure that it' ; s in the history books, what do you really want people to take away from the history of your family and what happened to Japanese Latin Americans? For your granddaughters and your grandkids, what do you want them to remember about your story? Eigo Kudo: Well, at least our grandchildren, we' ; re able to talk to them ourselves. So they' ; re pretty well aware of what happened to us. And especially Amy and Tami, they grew up with us, so they knew about our plight all the way through, since they were small. Tami has more time than Amy, so she is very active in this, to keep it going, yeah. I' ; m glad- Katherine Nagasawa: That the next- Eigo Kudo: ... that they are... Yeah. Because somewhere along the line, I guess I wanted our children to really realize how hard it was for us, yeah. Elsa Kudo: Our parents, especially. Papa Kudo and my dad. His father was already in his sixties. Eigo Kudo: Fifties, yeah. Elsa Kudo: Late fifties, ready to retire, and went... And he comes from a samurai family, so he never did any physical labor. And so he... And yet I admire them, because they' ; re so emotionally and mentally strong. At least both families were not religious, in a sense that some people get strength from their spiritual interests, but they were so strong, nevertheless. And I could only say about the Kudos and my dad, they were so resilient. And even though their lives changed overnight, even as a child, I didn' ; t hear them moaning and complaining. They just went on and did it, whatever needed to be done. And that part, I really admire them. Because you don' ; t know what life' ; s going to bring, but you take it as is, and you do your best. And if they preach anything, it was that. Just do your best, work hard, do your best, study hard, work hard. That was their thing. That' ; s it. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: They had to adapt any- Elsa Kudo: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: They adapted. And it was hard, especially Papa Kudo. He was a, what is it, ojyouchan jyanakute... Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Eigo Kudo: Botchan. Elsa Kudo: Oh, botchan. Do you know, botchan? Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-mm. Elsa Kudo: Oh, someone who comes from a very wealthy family, and the servants do everything, but he does use his mental capacity, but he doesn' ; t learn any physical labor. And my dad, coming from a poor family in Hokkaido, he did a lot of physical labor. But when we saw him, when we went to camp, and they brought the men, the dads, and I noticed his hand because it used to be very smooth and nice, and it was all like tanned and- Katherine Nagasawa: Wrinkled. Elsa Kudo: ... wrinkled and hard. And my mother, I remember, oh, held his hand and cried. She says, " ; Oh, Papa' ; s beautiful hand is all yucky." ; That' ; s not the word. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: Yeah. So those kind of things. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: It really probably took a physical toll on everybody. Elsa Kudo: Yes, exactly. They labored in the Panama Canal Zone. They did all those... What the prisoners do. You know, so, but I don' ; t think I ever heard them complain. They may between husband and wife, but not in front of us, ever. I never heard them. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: One thing I was wondering, and I just want to go back to the Chicago hearings. Did a lot of people in the audience know about the Japanese Latin American story? Eigo Kudo: No, no. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember people coming up to you afterwards then? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you tell me a bit about what the response was by the Chicago community? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah. Well, my sister married Thomas Okamoto, who' ; s a veteran from 442nd. And his family, the third person was Hannah, the sister. She came up and she said, " ; We didn' ; t realize that you people really suffered that much." ; I said, " ; Well, there' ; s no sense in advertising what you suffered, but we did. But you just never heard our complaint." ; But several others that I knew were there. They said, " ; Oh, we didn' ; t know that you went through such an ordeal," ; and so on. But, you know, it' ; s hard. You get to know Japanese Americans, and I was with a Japanese American group of boys. I went to Hyde Park High School and all of us were in Hyde Park. There were 18 of us and we had a pretty good baseball team, we had a pretty good basketball team. And they knew I was born in Peru and my Japanese was almost perfect. So everybody knew that, and our friends, but I never mentioned anything about our hardship and so on. So they never knew. Elsa Kudo: No. Katherine Nagasawa: So it wasn' ; t until the hearings in Chicago that the story was really told more fully? Eigo Kudo: Yeah, yeah. And several of my friends called me in Hawaii and said, " ; I heard you spoke at the hearing," ; and so on, and, " ; I hope you people receive whatever [Japanese] Americans get too." ; Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. Eigo Kudo: I didn' ; t expect any, but Mr. Bratt brought that up, and that' ; s how we got it. Elsa Kudo: But at the hearing in Chicago, there were all the newspaper people and radio. Even the Spanish radio people came, so they put out the news. So I think more people read about it, but I' ; m sure it wasn' ; t front page. Eigo Kudo: I remember the next day, Sun-Times had, " ; Japanese from Peru were kidnapped." ; Elsa Kudo: But not on the front page, was it? Eigo Kudo: No, no, no. About the fifth or sixth. Elsa Kudo: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Eigo Kudo: But it was interesting. But see, the hearing, ours was only half an hour, but we got on the news. Elsa Kudo: That was good. Katherine Nagasawa: Was Chicago the only hearing that had Japanese Latin Americans testify? Eigo Kudo: No, New York had Murono Seiji. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, one person? Eigo Kudo: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: Murono and then San Francisco? Eigo Kudo: No. Elsa Kudo: No, nobody. Eigo Kudo: Nobody. L.A., nobody, and Seattle, nobody. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Elsa Kudo: Sou yo ne... Chicago. But it was already, all the slots were taken by Japanese Americans. So that' ; s why we had to go all the way to Chicago from Hawaii. Eigo Kudo: And that was a no first, until her brother talked to- Elsa Kudo: My brother' ; s friend was kind of in charge. I forget her name. I had her friend name. She came to Hawaii, so we dined together. Very nice lady. I can' ; t think of her name right now. Yeah, so she helped us. Katherine Nagasawa: Chiye Tomihiro? Elsa Kudo: Yes. That' ; s it, thank you. Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Because she organized the list of witnesses. Elsa Kudo: Oh, okay. Yeah, she was so nice, and so willing to try to help us, so she gave us a slot. Eigo Kudo: Boy, when Carlos told us about the 15 minutes for three people, I thought, " ; Wow, at least we made it." ; Elsa Kudo: Yeah, because he flew in that morning. He had overtime work. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Wow. Eigo Kudo: But I tell you, when you' ; re young, you do all kinds of things that' ; s wild to... Elsa Kudo: If you would do it now, you' ; d be-- Katherine Nagasawa: You had the energy back then. Elsa Kudo: Yeah! Eigo Kudo: Now I probably won' ; t be able to do it at all. Elsa Kudo: No. Katherine Nagasawa: Good that they captured it while you were still young. Elsa Kudo: Yes, still young. Katherine Nagasawa: I think these were the full list of questions. Do you have any final thoughts or reflections before we close the video? Eigo Kudo: No. Katherine Nagasawa: You good? Eigo Kudo: That' ; s it. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Thank you so much for your- Eigo Kudo: Oh, you' ; re very welcome. I hope you' ; re successful. Katherine Nagasawa: Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KudoEigo20221126.xml KudoEigo20221126.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/2 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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<a href="https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/2730" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Oral History Interview: Kudo, Elsa (11/26/2022)</a>
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Kudo, Eigo (11/26/2022)
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Eigo Kudo, a Peruvian of Japanese descent, describes his family's experience of expulsion from Peru and incarceration at Crystal City. He recalls with remarkable clarity the details of the journey by ship from Peru, through the Panama Canal, to the United States; the emotions he experienced as a child being separated from first his father, and then his mother; the conditions at Crystal City; and his family's experience working at Seabrook Farms in New Jersey. He describes the difficulties Peruvian Japanese and Japanese Latin Americans faced during and after incarceration and the challenges they faced when seeking to be included in Japanese Americans' Redress efforts. He shares his direct experience testifying at the Chicago CWRIC hearings and subsequent efforts by his family to secure redress and reparations for Japanese Latin Americans, including the publication of his father-in-law Seiichi Higashide's memoir, "Adios to Tears."
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2022-11-26
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video
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Series: Redress