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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Matsushita, Elaine
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Matsushita, Fumiko
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/24/2017 Matsushita, Fumiko (9/24/2017) 1:01:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Matsushita, Fumiko Takada, Anna Matsushita, Elaine video 0 https://vimeo.com/300675997 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/300675997?h=2772683bab" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 This is an interview with Fumiko Matsushita, as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago Nikkei oral history project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition. Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans During World War II and the Demise of Civil Liberties. Today is September 24th, at, about 2:35 PM and we' ; re recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Fumiko Matsushita is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. So to get started, can we, can you start by just stating your full name? Fumiko M: 00:00:42 Fumiko Matsushita. AT: 00:00:42 And can you tell me a little bit about your hometown and where you grew up? FM: 00:00:48 Well, I was born and raised in Los Angeles, California, and just a normal childhood. AT: 00:00:58 Um, did you grow up, do you have siblings? FM: 00:01:02 Yes, I had, uh, three older brothers and an older sister and I was the youngest in the family. AT: 00:01:12 And what did your parents do for a living? FM: 00:01:15 Uh, when my father first came, he worked for the railroad, then he worked on a farm and later in life he became a gardener. And my mother did some sewing and then she also helped plant some seedlings and sell those to the nursery. Daughter: 00:01:45 When they were in Los Angeles, did they manage a motel? FM: 00:01:48 Oh, they did have a run a hotel for a while. And it' ; s where the city hall in Los Angeles now stands. And I don' ; t know the name of it or anything, but they gave that up when they, when my father went into gardening. AT: 00:02:10 Ah, you said when he came to LA, so did he come to LA from Japan? FM: 00:02:15 Oh, I' ; m not too sure about that. Uh, I know he was in Wyoming for a while, but I don' ; t know for how long. So. AT: 00:02:26 And where did he and your mom meet? FM: 00:02:28 In Hiroshima, Japan. And it was an arranged marriage, but, uh, uh, I' ; m not sure of the dates or anything like that, but, uh, he did go back after he came to California he went back to Japan to, uh, and they were married there and then they came back together. AT: 00:02:54 Are they both from Hiroshima? FM: 00:02:56 Yes. Uh huh. AT: 00:02:59 And, um, so what was that like growing up in LA? What kind of town was it like then when you were growing up? FM: 00:03:09 Well, it was just normal, you know, like for a child. Uh, I was 14 when the war broke out and so I was going to school. And just went to school and had my friends and it was very nice. AT: 00:03:30 Did you do any activities outside of school? FM: 00:03:33 Well, we went to Japanese school and uh, I took piano lessons for just a little while. I was not a very good student. AT: 00:03:48 And uh in your neighborhood, where were there other Japanese American families? FM: 00:03:53 Yes, quite a few. And then on the corner of the block where we lived was a candy store run by Japanese man. And uh, that we usually was our stop after public school. We stopped there to pick up snacks and ice cream and then we went on to Japanese school, which was a couple of blocks from there New Speaker: 00:04:21 And so, at home, were you speaking Japanese? FM: 00:04:24 Yes, with our parents. And then with our siblings. It was English course. AT: 00:04:34 So you were 14, uh, when the war broke out. Do you remember the, the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked? FM: 00:04:44 Not really. Uh, I just felt why did my parents' ; , you know, country have to attack our country? You know, other than that, I don' ; t remember too much. AT: 00:05:04 Do you remember, um, how your family or people around you are reacting to it? Was it a big deal or just you didn' ; t? FM: 00:05:16 Well, it was a shocking situation. Um, but I don' ; t remember too much how everybody was reacting, they were all shocked and surprised, you know. AT: 00:05:35 Um hmm. And so you were, you were in school and then, um, when did the Evacuation orders come out or how did you hear about the FM: 00:05:52 Well, they had these signs posted on the telephone poles and everyone was talking about it of course. And uh, it was a very confusing situation for us because my brother had just been drafted into the US army, so it was something I just couldn' ; t understand why he had to go into the army and we were being sent somewhere else, you know. AT: 00:06:26 So would that mean he was drafted in ' ; 42? Does that sound? FM: 00:06:31 Uh, yes, I believe so. AT: 00:06:34 Was this your oldest brother? FM: 00:06:35 Yes, AT: 00:06:36 What was his name? FM: 00:06:37 Hiroshi AT: 00:06:37 Hiroshi Daughter: 00:06:43 After Pearl Harbor was attacked. What was it like going to school? You' ; re your friends and classmates? What did they say? FM: 00:06:52 You know, I don' ; t remember too much about that. Daughter: 00:06:56 Do you remember? Sister: 00:06:58 It sounds weird, but we didn' ; t talk about it. It' ; s something you don' ; t talk about. Things going on. FM: 00:07:10 Yeah. It' ; s strange. No one you know. AT: 00:07:23 And uh, Hiroshi was he drafted before you heard of the Evacuation Orders? So do you remember? FM: 00:07:31 I think it was before, right before, so it was really puzzling to me why he had to go into the army and, you know, we were being sent elsewhere. Sister: 00:07:49 Because we were shocked that he did go AT: 00:07:49 Why were they, why were people shocked that he was drafted? FM: 00:08:01 Well, it just seems so strange. The, you know, he would be going into the army when the United States was sending us elsewhere. AT: 00:08:20 Did you know of other Japanese, young Japanese American men who had FM: 00:08:23 No I didn' ; t. AT: 00:08:27 And, um, so where, where did your family, wherever you sent first? FM: 00:08:34 We were sent to the Santa Anita Racetracks and, uh, we were fortunately to be in barracks, but some friends of ours were put into these horse stalls and so they had horse hair coming out of the woodwork and things like, and very uncomfortable for them, you know. AT: 00:09:00 Can you describe, um, the timeline or the process of, um, you know, from your family finding out you had to leave to actually ending up at Santa Anita? FM: 00:09:15 Well, I don' ; t remember the timeline, but I know we had to help my father sell things like refrigerator and a piano and things like that. And a lot of the things that they had gotten from Japan, they burned because they didn' ; t want to have anything that, you know, signified that they would be closely connected to Japan. And so a lot of the things they asked our neighbor to keep in the garage for them, but I think that was a total loss because I don' ; t never remember that they got any of that back even after the war. So, uh, and then a lot of the things, the large items they would, they had sold to people in the neighborhood. So they did lose a lot of things. AT: 00:10:28 How did that feel as a 14 year old? FM: 00:10:32 Well, it just seems so unfair and I just felt sorry for my parents, you know, because they came to this country thinking that they would establish a new life. And, uh, they worked hard all the time and they were just being discriminated against you to know. So I really felt sorry for them. AT: 00:11:03 And at the time, um, cause you had mentioned that they had a couple of different lines of work. What were they doing at the time that the Evacuation Orders came out? FM: 00:11:15 Well, my father was doing gardening. AT: 00:11:18 Was he gardening? FM: 00:11:18 Uh huh AT: 00:11:18 And um, so after you were, your family was selling some of your belongings, um, where did you go from there? Did you have to report somewhere? FM: 00:11:37 We all had to meet that, the Methodist Church. And as I recall, we went on army convoy trucks to the camp. And so it was a long ride because we went from Santa Anita to, um, oh, trying to think of the name of the town. I don' ; t remember now. Uh, it started with an a, but I can' ; t remember. Uh, but it was way on the outskirts of Los Angeles and that' ; s where the Santa Anita race tracks was. AT: 00:12:21 So do you remember how long that trip would have been? FM: 00:12:27 No, not really. No. I don' ; t. AT: 00:12:32 And was your whole family together? FM: 00:12:35 Uh, yes. Except our middle brother. He was doing some kind of work that he did not go into the assembly center. And so it was our, the third son and my sister and I that went with our parents. Daughter: 00:13:04 Was Uncle Mas in Chicago already when you were? FM: 00:13:08 No, he was working in, in California. I' ; m not sure exactly what he was doing. Yeah. But, uh, no. So he was not in the camp with us. AT: 00:13:26 And, um, so when you got to Santa Anita, what were some of your first impressions of it? What was it like? FM: 00:13:35 Well, we were in a corner barrack of the whole camp. And right in front of us was this huge guard tower with soldiers, with guns, you know. And so it was rather frightening. And um, we had to all go to mess halls for our meals. And there was one main building where we went to the laundry room and the washrooms and showers. And, um, uh, for us, a group of us, we used to sit in the grandstand and we have a teacher who sort of taught us, but you couldn' ; t really concentrate, you know, you' ; re sitting in the grandstands trying to study. And it was really hard. AT: 00:14:39 So that' ; s where classes would take place? The classes? FM: 00:14:44 Yeah. So I mean they were really, I mean they were called classes, but they really weren' ; t know. AT: 00:14:53 And at that point, um, were you in high school or? FM: 00:14:58 I had just started and um, so, you know, it' ; s, I had really just barely started. AT: 00:15:11 And, um, do you remember what time of year that would have been that you went to Santa Anita or when you arrived? FM: 00:15:18 I think it was April. Was it April? Sister: 00:15:21 What? FM: 00:15:21 Was it April that we went? AT: 00:15:21 To Santa Anita? Sister: 00:15:21 I think April, it was around then. AT: 00:15:21 And so did you have to finish out the school year or? FM: 00:15:38 No, I didn' ; t finish it. AT: 00:15:45 And how long was your family in Santa Anita? FM: 00:15:51 About six months, eight months. Sister: 00:15:58 Eight months. FM: 00:16:01 Roughly eight months, I guess. AT: 00:16:05 And did you know anyone who was also sent to Santa Anita from back home in LA? FM: 00:16:10 We had a few friends. And uh, they were in, well, as I said, some of my friends were in the stables, the horse stables. And uh, we had some friends but not real close by. They were in other barracks. AT: 00:16:34 And was it a very large, was it a very large? FM: 00:16:38 It was good size. I can' ; t remember how many units, but uh, yeah, I don' ; t remember the Daughter: 00:16:46 What' ; s your living space? Smaller or bigger than when you got to Amache? FM: 00:16:57 You know, I can' ; t even remember what the rooms were like in a Santa Anita. Yeah, no, I don' ; t remember that at all. AT: 00:17:12 So if it was around eight months, it was probably winter time when you left Santa Anita? FM: 00:17:23 It wasn' ; t winter was it? No, it wasn' ; t winter cause when we got to Amache it was so dusty. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it wasn' ; t eight months. AT: 00:17:47 And how did, did you say earlier that if that was the army truck that you took from the Santa Anita to Amache? FM: 00:17:56 Santa Anita to Amache we went on the train. AT: 00:18:03 And, um, can you describe what, what that trip was like, how long it was? FM: 00:18:09 Well, it was very long. And one thing that I remember, I cut my finger on something that was sticking out of the train and that was really my first train ride. And, uh, it just was a long trip and we couldn' ; t see out. So, you know, we didn' ; t know who you are going. AT: 00:18:37 Were their stops and people use the restroom? FM: 00:18:39 I don' ; t remember. Stops. Do you? No, I don' ; t think so. AT: 00:18:55 Um, when you arrived to Amache, um, besides being very dusty, what else did you notice or what FM: 00:19:06 I think other than that, that was a whole thing. It was just so dusty and windy. AT: 00:19:22 Can you describe what that' ; s like? And I, I' ; m asking really out of ignorance because being from Chicago, I had never experienced, you know, a very dusty place. Does that mean you, I mean, could you see, or FM: 00:19:34 You could see, and we were assigned barracks and uh, when we walked in the room had these mattresses and they were just covered with dust, you know, sandy, sand that had blown in and it was not very pleasant. AT: 00:20:01 So it was your family was still together and you were all staying in this? FM: 00:20:06 Yes. AT: 00:20:08 But you don' ; t remember the rooms that well? FM: 00:20:11 Remember what? AT: 00:20:12 The room' ; s like, what the actual barracks. FM: 00:20:14 It was a very one to one building had two small units on the end and then, uh, too full, two, two more, the middle size. And then there was one in the center I recall. And so we had the, the one on the end was just was very small family. So it was maybe somebody, a couple or one child. And then like our unit was the next one. And we went back to Amache this past year, uh, on a pilgrimage. And I was very interested because they had reconstructed of barrack, which was standing right on the block that we lived in. So it really, uh, brought back memories and I said to my daughter, I don' ; t know where I studied because the room was not that big. And, uh, with the beds in there, uh, I just don' ; t know where I studied. I guess I must have studied on the bed, you know, so. AT: 00:21:44 So do you remember your, your block and your address at camp? FM: 00:21:49 Mhm. My block was 12H and the barrack was six and the unit was B. And we were on the end, very end of the camp. So right behind us was the barbed wire and then the guard tower was there. And then beyond that was all sage brush. AT: 00:22:14 And what was the, what was the weather like in Amache? FM: 00:22:18 Well, it was hot and dusty and winter was cold. And I guess that was the first time we saw snow because being from California, you know, I just never did. AT: 00:22:36 Did you have the, the right clothes in the winter time? FM: 00:22:41 Well, they had a store, I don' ; t know what they called it. They had some kind of store that you could buy things, you know, or you could order through Montgomery Ward. So, so you did have, you know, clothing. Yeah. AT: 00:23:05 During this time, were you in communication with your eldest brother at all? FM: 00:23:11 He came to actually, he came to visit us in camp one time. And, um, so, you know, we really didn' ; t correspond that much. I think my parents must have, but I didn' ; t. AT: 00:23:29 And how about the rest of your family and camp? Did your parents work or your older siblings? FM: 00:23:38 My father worked in the mess hall. I think he was stoking the coal burners and then, uh, our mother, what was she doing? I can' ; t, yeah, I' ; m not sure what, whether she was in the kitchen. Yeah. So Daughter: 00:24:07 They both worked at camp? FM: 00:24:10 Well, I went to school and then when I graduated I worked as the secretary to the sanitation officer and his office was in the hospital and then my sister worked for the pioneer press, which was the newspaper there. So we were both employed. Was a $16 a month? Sister: 00:24:36 Yeah. FM: 00:24:38 Yeah. The professional doctors where I think getting 19 a month. AT: 00:24:44 And, um, what, what was school like in Amache? How did that compare to either Santa Anita or your school? FM: 00:24:57 Well, Santa Anita, you really couldn' ; t say it was school because we were sitting in the grandstand where the horses normally would' ; ve been running. Um, so I mean, it was, you know, we had good teachers. We had some, uh, Nisei teachers, but some Caucasian teachers from the outside. And so we had good schooling there. AT: 00:25:27 And did you do anything, any activities outside of school and work? FM: 00:25:34 The only thing I remember, I, I did play on the basketball team for awhile, but that was about it. AT: 00:25:41 So they had teams? FM: 00:25:44 They did. AT: 00:25:44 And how long was your family at Amache? FM: 00:25:55 Well, I was there actually almost four years because I stayed until my parents were able to leave because my brother had already gone and my sister had gone. And so I stayed with my parents. AT: 00:26:12 And where did your sister go? FM: 00:26:15 She moved to Chicago because my brother had moved to Chicago. AT: 00:26:18 And what was in Chicago for them? FM: 00:26:24 Well, our middle brother had been working there and uh, so then of course my younger brother moved to Chicago and then my sister followed. And so that' ; s where we all ended up. AT: 00:26:42 And what they, what were they doing for work? FM: 00:26:46 You know, my, the middle brother, he was doing insurance. Was he selling insurance? Yeah. And then our, um, the brother below him, uh, was working as a supervisor in a bindery. A job that he held for many years. Yeah. So he did very well there and he had a lot of Nisei' ; s working for him. So it was very good. AT: 00:27:28 And do you recall, was that some kind of like work leave that they were able to leave camp early to move to Chicago? FM: 00:27:39 Um, well, actually when my brother first came, I don' ; t think he had a job from things I' ; ve heard from other people. They said he was walking along the sidewalk and someone yelled from above, do you need a job? And my brother said yes. So there' ; s a person said, well, come on up. And uh, he started working there right away. And uh, he became the sup, one of the supervisors there and he was there for many years. Daughter: 00:28:19 Why was he able to leave Amache before you? FM: 00:28:23 Why was he able to? Well, people just started relocating, you know, and uh, he came to Chicago because our second brother was already out here. AT: 00:28:40 Had you heard of other people and other families in Amache going to Chicago? FM: 00:28:47 Not really. A lot of people who are going to Cleveland. Uh, but we didn' ; t know too many in Chicago. AT: 00:28:59 Would you happen to remember the years that your siblings left camp for Chicago? New Speaker: 00:29:07 Think the year 1943. 43' ; Cause I left 45' ; . Uh huh. So our brother must' ; ve left more like 42' ; . He also, uh, from camp went out to Greeley, Colorado to do farm work. So AT: 00:29:50 Do you know what kind of farm he was on? FM: 00:29:53 Sugar beets. I don' ; t know what he was doing, but a group of them had been hired to go out there. AT: 00:30:05 And um, do you remember where your family ended up coming to in Chicago? Which neighborhoods or? FM: 00:30:16 We lived on Wrightwood uh, we were right near Clark Street. And we lived there for many years. And then we, from there we moved across the street to a building on the Clark Street. And then from there I guess we moved to a LaSalle Street, I think LaSalle Street on. Yeah. AT: 00:30:45 And so were, were all of the siblings living together? FM: 00:30:48 Pretty much. Yeah. AT: 00:30:54 And it sounds like it was kind of one at a time. People, your siblings were FM: 00:31:00 Right. And I, our parents, were here at all. So, but they stayed about a year, but my father couldn' ; t take the cold so they finally moved back to California. AT: 00:31:18 Do you know which year that was when they came out to join everyone in Chicago? FM: 00:31:22 It was 1945. That' ; s when, when I came out. AT: 00:31:31 And you said, um, was it both your parents? They were here for a year? FM: 00:31:37 Yes. AT: 00:31:37 And where did they move back to? FM: 00:31:39 To Los Angeles. AT: 00:31:43 And when you first, well first of all, how did you get end up? How did you end up in Chicago? How did you get here? FM: 00:31:51 I think we came by train, if I remember right. I think so. AT: 00:31:58 And how was that trip? Do you remember though? FM: 00:32:00 I don' ; t remember that at all. AT: 00:32:05 What about your, your first impressions of the city? I imagine that it was probably your first time in Chicago? FM: 00:32:11 Well, I just remember it was big and dirty. AT: 00:32:17 Um, and what, what were you, uh, did you find a job when you? FM: 00:32:22 My sister was already working for the Methodist Church and so I just went and applied and got a job there. So I worked there full time for about a year and then I decided that I wanted to go to school. Um, and I, so I started going to the Evanston Collegiate Institute in Evanston, which is now Kendall College. And, um, I still work part time at the church building and I ended up in various offices in the church building. Um, they were located at 740 Rush Street in Chicago for awhile. And I can' ; t remember the year, but they built a building in Evanston, so they moved up there. So in total I worked for the Methodist Church in various offices for a total of 42 years. AT: 00:33:30 What was the name of the church? FM: 00:33:33 It was Methodist Church and then it became the United Methodist Church. It was headquarters offices. So I first worked for the central treasury, then I moved to what was called the board of the laity, which was an office that dealt with all the lay people in the United States. And uh, from there I went to what was called the United Methodist Communications and worked there. I was going to continue working there until I retired, but they, uh, the church decided to move our offices to Nashville and my family didn' ; t want to go there. Um, they, the church took us down to Nashville so we could look around and see if we wanted to take up residence there. But my family didn' ; t want to go and I considered commuting for awhile, but then decided that would be a little too hard. So I took early retirement and then after awhile I found another job in Evanston. Um working for a wholesale jewelry company and I was with them for about 27 years. AT: 00:35:16 So were you commuting from um, well, not too far from where we are now, to Evanston? FM: 00:35:23 Chicago, Evanston AT: 00:35:27 And would you travel by train or? FM: 00:35:28 Yes, I went by L train. AT: 00:35:33 And when you first came here, were there a lot of other Japanese American families in the neighborhood? In the neighborhoods? FM: 00:35:47 In the neighborhood? Um, not really. Um, we moved from LaSalle Street, well, and then well I got married and so then I was living on Wrightwood for awhile. And then from there I moved to where I' ; m living now, um, on the Northwest side. AT: 00:36:19 Which neighborhood is long? FM: 00:36:23 I think it' ; s called the Lawndale, the Lawndale neighborhood, I think. Daughter: 00:36:33 It' ; s between Lawndale and Lincoln Park. FM: 00:36:33 It' ; s um, about seven miles west of Wrigley Field near the expressway so. AT: 00:36:46 Where did you meet, where and when did you meet your husband? FM: 00:36:49 Um, they used to have a basketball games at Olivet Institute, the Nisei League and he was coaching one of the teams there. And I was helping out as cashier for people coming to watch the game. And so we gradually met there. AT: 00:37:12 Were there a lot of activities like that where Nisei FM: 00:37:15 We used to have a bowling league and we used to bowl. Both, both of us used to bowl in that. Um, and then they had Nisei leagues, where they had basketball for the boys and girls and they had basket, baseball teams. And so they had quite a few activities. AT: 00:37:40 How about the, um, the social dances? Were you around that age? FM: 00:37:46 I was, but I wasn' ; t that interested in it, so never went. Um, AT: 00:37:53 And I imagine the same goes for the, the social clubs, the FM: 00:37:57 Right AT: 00:37:58 [The Ting-a-Lings Things and the Devonairs?] FM: 00:37:58 Yeah and um, I' ; ve been along to one of the church clubs, but other than that AT: 00:38:10 What was the name of that club? FM: 00:38:12 They called it the [Maya Devies?] At that time, but it didn' ; t last too long. Yeah. We also did have, uh, I' ; m trying to think if this was before the war, if it was here, but we, I did belong to a group, the Tri Delts. But, uh, we did have a group that we used to have as a club here in Chicago too, for a while, not too long. AT: 00:38:53 And the folks who were in those, I guess social networks if you could call it that, um, where those folks mostly coming from camp? FM: 00:39:03 Oh yes, yeah uh huh. New Speaker: 00:39:04 And was that something that people would talk about, like where they were coming from or because I imagine it was people from all over. New Speaker: 00:39:19 You know, not really. People just didn' ; t talk about things about camp. And you know, I don' ; t know why that was, AT: 00:39:31 But I also wanted to ask, um, when you were, before the war and in LA, was your family religious? Did you go to church? FM: 00:39:47 We went to church, but we weren' ; t really what you call religious, but we did go to the church. AT: 00:39:55 Was it a Methodist? FM: 00:39:57 No. Buddhist church. AT: 00:40:02 Buddhist church. FM: 00:40:02 Uh huh AT: 00:40:02 And when you were working for the Methodist Church, were you attending? FM: 00:40:08 No, I and you know, one thing, uh, I thought it was pretty nice. No one ever tried to convince me that I should become a Methodist, you know. Uh, so it was perfectly all right. And I used to do a lot of traveling for, uh, for awhile I was in charge of the, what' ; s called the transportation office. So whenever we had conferences in various parts of the States, I would go to set up an office to help the ministers with their travel plans. And so I did do a lot of traveling at that time, you know. AT: 00:41:00 And um, what year did you get married? FM: 00:41:03 Uh, 1950. New Speaker: 00:41:07 And um, did do I have it right, did you move once you got married to? FM: 00:41:17 We were on, um, Wrightwood for a while and then, uh, we moved to, uh, where we are now in 1955. No, 57' ; cause she was two years old. AT: 00:41:44 And how many children do you have? FM: 00:41:46 I have two. I have a son, I have a daughter and I have a son who is 11 years younger than her. AT: 00:41:57 And in your own households, um, were you, uh, were you speaking Japanese with them or keeping anything really? FM: 00:42:10 Not really. They did go to Japanese school for little while, but, uh, we didn' ; t speak it at home except when my father in- law stayed with this awhile. We did speak a little bit then, but uh. And it' ; s, it' ; s really too bad because after he was gone and my parents were gone, you know, we used to correspond with my parents in Japanese and uh, uh, after they' ; ve been gone, we just don' ; t have the opportunities. So I' ; m slowly forgetting how to write it and how to speak it, you know, which is unfortunate. AT: 00:43:01 Do you have any questions? Daughter: 00:43:01 I always wondered when you were on the train going to a Amache and the shades were pulled, you didn' ; t really know where you were going. Is that correct? FM: 00:43:27 We didn' ; t know where we were going, no. Daughter: 00:43:29 Did you know what the situation was going to be when you got there? FM: 00:43:34 Not really. Daughter: 00:43:34 It was total uncertainty for four days on this train and when you got there, who explained to you what this life was going to be like for you there? FM: 00:43:47 Well nobody really explained anything just Daughter: 00:43:53 And while you were there, did you know what the end was going to be? Did you know you had to wait until this happened? It was just total uncertainty. FM: 00:44:07 No, you just, it was, you just live your life each day. Daughter: 00:44:11 While you were there, did you ever hear rumblings of discontent? FM: 00:44:20 Not really, which is a little surprising when I looking back, you know, but uh, as they say, it' ; s our parents who are the one who really, I felt so badly for them because here they thought there have establishing a new life here and they' ; re going through all this. They lost everything that they had and, but they even, they just rallied around and started a new life again Daughter: 00:45:04 After the war, after they were settled in Los Angeles, did they ever talk about camp? FM: 00:45:11 No, not really. People just never really did. I think it' ; s just now when the younger people are getting to be adults, they' ; re the ones who have started to raise the questions, which is I think very good. And uh, in our age people just really never talked too much about it. Daughter: 00:45:50 Do you feel any bitterness? FM: 00:45:55 No. Um, you just sort of wondered why they had to go to such extremes as to move everybody and put them in these confined areas with guards you know, overlooking, but, uh, uh, I don' ; t think people really were feeling bitterness, you know? AT: 00:46:29 Yeah. When you had children, did you share with them what happened to your family? FM: 00:46:39 You know, not really. I don' ; t know why that is, but we really didn' ; t talk about it. Daughter: 00:46:51 I also wondered in camp, the guards, did you have any interactions with them and if so, how did they treat you? FM: 00:47:02 Not really. Daughter: 00:47:04 Never spoke? FM: 00:47:04 They were there with their guns. And you just saw what were sort of scared you know. Daughter: 00:47:12 So, and then people from the Granada Community who would come and work inside the camp, how did they, how did they treat you or? FM: 00:47:23 They were all very, um, well, I don' ; t know how to put it, but they were all very nice to us and even to this day, they are just wonderful people. Uh, and you know, they refer to the camp as Granada a lot of times, but to us it was Amache Relocation Center and which is located near the town of Granada. And the people in Granada, we' ; re really just wonderful people and to this day they continue to be very good to the Japanese. And uh, they, um, uh, Mr. Hopper, who at that time was the principal of the high school has gotten the high school students and they come and clean the area in ah, Amache and they continue to work to keep the place up. And, um, as I say, I went on this pilgrimage this past year and he was there to show us around too. And, uh, he' ; s just a wonderful man that, uh, really has done so much for the Japanese Americans. AT: 00:48:57 And why, why is that something that' ; s important to you? You know, people are doing that kind of work? FM: 00:49:04 Well, I think it' ; s important that they do that because they, well, they' ; re keeping up the feeling of friendship. And I don' ; t know how to explain it, but, uh, there' ; s really a deep sense of appreciation for them. And I know a lot of the Nisei' ; s feel the same way and, uh, I don' ; t know about other camps, but the, the, um, uh, Amache' ; s fortunate that in Denver also there' ; s a group that has the pilgrimage every year and they go down to the camp site and they have a memorial service for people who have passed away. And, um, and usually the, uh, they open up the Granada high school, uh, to have a luncheon for us there. Uh, it' ; s just really a wonderful feeling to know that there are people who care about us and they continue to do that. AT: 00:50:40 Was that last pilgrimage, was that the first time you had returned to Amache? FM: 00:50:45 No, I had been there once. Let' ; s see. I had been there once before, I think it was back in 98' ; or so. Um, we stayed in Colorado Springs and took a bus to Amache. And, uh, at that time, the grounds were not as kept up as it is now. And now they' ; ve got markers, signs showing where things were and things like that. And uh, uh, but it was, you know, very nice that we were able to see where we lived and things like that. AT: 00:51:32 That first time that you went back, who did you go with? FM: 00:51:39 I went with my husband and, uh, I met some of my girlfriends there who had come from Los Angeles. Um, I was the only one that moved to Chicago. All my girlfriends went back to Los Angeles. And, uh, and we continued to, uh, meet each other every year. And I think this is the third year that we haven' ; t because we' ; re all getting older. AT: 00:52:15 And that first time that you went back, what was that like going back to that site? FM: 00:52:24 Well it, uh, I guess it sort of felt like home, although, I, my parents were living in a different place. Uh, but I was able to see all my girlfriends and uh, so it was very nice. Yeah. AT: 00:52:45 Were you able to try to figure out where your actual Barrick had been? Like, did you find the FM: 00:52:53 When I went to visit the camp? Oh yes. Because as I said, they reconstructed the barrack and it' ; s located right where my barrack was standing. But the first time it wasn' ; t there, of course. AT: 00:53:09 The first time you were able to travel? FM: 00:53:11 When I went to visit uh huh. AT: 00:53:16 And then so the second time you went was on this recent pilgrimage, is that right? FM: 00:53:22 I' ; m trying to remember if I went another time, but I think was the, when I went this past year, I went with my, my daughter and my, one of my grandsons and my nephew and uh, so it was a very good trip. AT: 00:53:41 What was that like taking your family to, to Amache? FM: 00:53:46 Well, I was really happy that they were able to see where I was living for four years. And um, you know, they couldn' ; t see some of the things like what the washrooms looked like and things like that. But at least I felt that they got a feel of where we lived in the, um, summertime' ; s, it would be hot and dusty. They used to call it the dust bowl and then in the wintertime was the snow. And uh, actually that was the first time I had ever seen snow when I first went into camp. Yeah. Daughter: 00:54:38 When you were in camp, I think I thought in the film downstairs that people could go out for different reasons. Did you, did auntie leave the boundaries of the camp during the time you lived there? FM: 00:54:53 You could get permits to go to the dentist. Daughter: 00:54:57 So did you, did you leave? FM: 00:54:59 No, I was going to and I never did. Um, and then we used to get permits to go, uh, I think it was called the Arkansas River. We used to go for weenie bakes. Sister: 00:55:14 Oh that' ; s right FM: 00:55:14 So bunch of us would go out, somebody would get a permit and a bunch of us would go out and have a weenie bake. AT: 00:55:24 Was that in town or? FM: 00:55:27 Um, not right in town, but not too far. Yeah, I' ; m actually, Granada was not too far from Amache so. Daughter: 00:55:39 So you were in camp, did you ever feel like I need to get out of here? FM: 00:55:47 Not really, no. Yeah. AT: 00:55:49 And what was that like when you actually did leave camp and go to Chicago? How did that feel? FM: 00:56:09 I guess it just felt like I was starting a new life. AT: 00:56:13 Did you experience any kind of discrimination or, or other challenges when you got to Chicago? FM: 00:56:23 Not really. The only thing like at the grocery store, things where being rationed because you know, that was everybody. Um, but I didn' ; t feel anything, you know, other than that. Daughter: 00:56:44 You didn' ; t have a hard time finding a place to live or a job? FM: 00:56:45 Well, I think the place to live, I think our brother had already gotten the place. And then the job, my sister was working there, so I went and applied and I got the job right away. And as I say, I started there in 1945 and I was still there 42 years later. And in different capacities. Daughter: 00:57:17 How were you able to connect with other Japanese Americans once you settled in Chicago? FM: 00:57:24 Well, we wanted the Buddhist church. Um Daughter: 00:57:28 And was it important to connect? FM: 00:57:31 Oh yes. And we also, you know, to the bowling leagues and the basketball leagues, um, things like that we were able to connect to, you know, so that was good. AT: 00:57:48 When you had children, was that still important to you to find community for them? FM: 00:57:57 Oh yes. New Speaker: 00:57:57 And how did you, how did you, how did that play out for your children? FM: 00:58:04 Well, we took them to church and, uh, they had Japanese school, so we got them started in that for awhile. Uh, and uh, but you know, that was, we tried to do things in the Japanese community. AT: 00:58:27 And how about today? Are you still involved in church or, FM: 00:58:34 Well, I go on occasion. I' ; m not that actively involved anymore. Um, because of my age, I don' ; t move that fast anymore and, but I still think it' ; s very important that we all tried to stay in touch with the Japanese community. We, um, uh, my husband had belonged to golf groups and um, bowling groups uh and, you know, Japanese groups and uh, and he was active in Boy Scouts and judo. And so we continued to stay in touch that way. AT: 00:59:28 And it' ; s, as we wrap up here, um, one question I like to ask is if you could leave some kind of message or, or legacy with your children and your grandchildren and the generations to come, what, what would you want that to be? FM: 00:59:54 Well, I want them to respect one another, love one another, be kind to each other and take care of each other. AT: 01:00:14 And is there, is there anything else that you would like to add or that I might' ; ve missed in the conversation? FM: 01:00:21 No. I guess another word that I would put in there would be for them to honor the family. So that would be about it, I think. Daughter: 01:00:40 Anything else you want to add? Sister: 01:00:44 No. Speaker 1: 01:00:51 Well, thank you so much again for coming to speak. FM: 01:00:57 That' ; s okay, I hope I did all right. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MatsushitaFumiko20170924.xml MatsushitaFumiko20170924.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Matsushita, Fumiko (9/24/2017)
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2017-09-24
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
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Mizuta, Junko
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/4/2017 Mizuta, Junko (10/4/2017) 1:31:27 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Mizuta, Junko Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/300751603 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/300751603?h=0a28f85c09" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 Can you start by stating your name? Junko Mizuta: 00:00:03 Yeah, I' ; m Junko Mizuta. And... AT: 00:00:08 I won' ; t leave you hanging. Can you tell me about where you were born and-- JM: 00:00:15 Yeah, I was born in Portland, Oregon, way back when. [Laughs.] AT: 00:00:21 And when were you born? JM: 00:00:23 I was born 1925. Is that which? Yup. Okay. AT: 00:00:30 And um, can you tell me a little bit about your parents and how they ended up in Portland' ; s? JM: 00:00:39 Well, my Dad came from Japan is the teacher leader and he had a concession in Long Beach I think originally. And then he went back some place along the line and married my Mom, married my Mom in Japan and then he came back, but then this time he was in Portland, Oregon and he had a tea house in at Console Crest in uh, Portland. And from what my Mom said, I think he was supposed to go back, you know, after his two or three year contract. But he liked him back to Japan, I guess he worked for the company because he' ; s so young. She' ; s so gone. They' ; re known for the tea. So anyway, um, he liked it here. So he decided to stay over there. My Mom wasn' ; t here now, but anyway, they decided to stay in. Um, um, then the Depression came in, my Dad lost his job, so it' ; s tough. So at the time in Japan things are good. So my Mom went back to Japan and my Dad stayed here while he tried to find something to support us and then we came back when things got better. So we were in Japan a couple of years and got to know my grandmother where she was. Great. AT: 00:02:28 You' ; re staying with your Mom' ; s family? JM: 00:02:32 Yeah, in Hiroshima. And then I came back couldn' ; t speak a word of English and then I was six so then I started grade school speaking to everybody in Japanese and not understanding. No one could understand me. AT: 00:02:54 And would you happen to know roughly the dates or the years, but your family was traveling during this time? JM: 00:03:03 In the late twenties and we came back when I was six, so must have been 1931. AT: 00:03:16 And so you were very young when you left for Japan? JM: 00:03:21 Yeah, I was four. I came back when I was six and then by then my Dad had found this apartment that he was leasing you on the east side of Portland, on the east of the river and I grew up there until we were forced from our homes. But it was a street of a lot of businesses and I was like, when I was like seven or eight, I go to all these businesses and could I interview everybody and I come back with all this news about everybody and my Mom would always say to me, I don' ; t know how you get all that news about these people, but you know, being seven, you' ; re curious and you ask all kinds of questions. AT: 00:04:15 So you must have picked up English pretty quickly then? JM: 00:04:18 Well, my sister knew. I have an older sister. She remembered English. So you pick it up. That. How much older is your? My sister' ; s four, was four years older then I. AT: 00:04:34 I' ; m sorry, what was her name? JM: 00:04:38 Her name was Haruhi. AT: 00:04:40 And what were your parents' ; names? JM: 00:04:42 My Mom' ; s name was Saiei in my Dad' ; s name was Kaiji AT: 00:04:50 And those early years of Portland' ; s. Do you have, do you have any actual memories of it? JM: 00:05:01 Yeah yeah, it was nice. You know, we, you, well the neighbors are pretty nice. I don' ; t really remember anything, you know, bad or anything, but um, I was young and you don' ; t know about those things. AT: 00:05:21 So when you and your Mom and your sister went back to Japan, were you going to school? JM: 00:05:28 No. No, it' ; s too young. My sister did, she went to a, well she went to a Japanese school like and they had her take their shoes off and she didn' ; t like that. So, um, my Mom transferred her to a mission school where they spoke English and you could keep your shoes on. AT: 00:06:00 And so what would you spend time with your Mom when you were in Japan or JM: 00:06:07 No, I spend more of my time with my grandmother and my uncle. That was fun. AT: 00:06:15 Hmm. So when you came back to the states that was around 31, can you tell me more about, um, I guess what, what life was like in Portland for, for your family at that time? JM: 00:06:37 I don' ; t really remember too much. Even the, AT: 00:06:43 Your Dad had the apartments? JM: 00:06:44 Yeah. AT: 00:06:48 Were you going to school by then, when you came back? JM: 00:06:51 Yeah, I went to Buckman grade school. And, it was nice. I don' ; t, only thing was I couldn' ; t speak English the first years I think. And that was kind of bad, but once that was gone I was fine. AT: 00:07:11 Were there other Japanese American families where you lived? JM: 00:07:15 Not that I know of. There were a couple where there was one family later on, another family moved in, but they were kind of far, you know, like, not like next door maybe they were, what? Portland six walk seven blocks away. AT: 00:07:34 And did you and your sister, did you have to go to Japanese school? JM: 00:07:38 Well, not really. I don' ; t think that was in the plan, but my, um, these two other gals, they were going and I was around 12 I think and then I found out they were going to Japanese school and so I came home and I asked my Mom if I go to Japanese school because they were going to school and she said, well Dad and I all discuss it and we' ; ll let you know. So a couple of days later my Mom said, yeah, well we decided you could go. So that' ; s how I went to Japanese school. My sister never went. AT: 00:08:25 Hmm. And were you speaking Japanese at home? JM: 00:08:28 Yeah, with my parents, not with my sister. AT: 00:08:34 Hmm. How long were you going to Japanese school? JM: 00:08:38 No, too long because I started late around 11, 12 and then the war started when I was 16. So maybe four or five years at the most. AT: 00:08:52 Did you, how were you as a student? JM: 00:08:56 I don' ; t know, I guess it was interesting, you know, we have to write composition and read and of course I was the oldest in the class because most of the kids start when they' ; re probably a lot younger, but it was an interesting experience. I mean like today I can look at a character kind of looks familiar, which I wouldn' ; t have had if I hadn' ; t gone. AT: 00:09:27 Hmm. Was Your family religious at all? New Speaker: 00:09:30 I' ; m sorry. New Speaker: 00:09:31 Was Your family religious at all? JM: 00:09:33 My Dad was, my Mom too. I guess it must have rubbed off on her, but I was reading the, um, the, well, the DOJ report, it said that my Dad was a Christian from Japan. I don' ; t know how that happened. I wish he were living in and I had known, I would have asked him. But yeah, I was raised a Methodist. My Mom was, of course my Dad was like a deacon at the church. Very active in the church. AT: 00:10:11 And you said that you wish that you asked your Dad, was that, that he was religious in Japan? JM: 00:10:19 You, yeah. Well, how he became a Christian in Japan, but I didn' ; t know this until I read the report. AT: 00:10:29 Hmm. Speaking about about your parents, um, can you describe them? What, what were they like when they were raising you and these, JM: 00:10:46 I don' ; t know, my Dad was fun. You know, I didn' ; t know, can' ; t really recall. You know, we used to do things together as a family. So, but my Dad was always busy, you know, who is always going to meetings and stuff like that. And uh, my Mom was, I guess she was busy with her business when she opened it, but, uh, she was a home, you know, home person, until then. AT: 00:11:33 What was her business the one she JM: 00:11:35 She opened the laundries in store, so she had her own business and my Dad had his. AT: 00:11:45 Was your Dad' ; s just being the, the apartments? JM: 00:11:50 Yeah, he had the apartment. And when she first opened the business was about a block away, but then there was a vacancy on the first floor storefront. So she moved your business to the first floor of the apartment. So it was convenient. Yeah. AT: 00:12:13 And then uh, can you tell me about, uh, your experiences? Um, the day that Pearl Harbor was? JM: 00:12:27 Yeah, usually on Sunday we went out as a family. Yeah, well Sunday ride or we' ; d go someplace near the Columbia Gorge or Mount Hood or someplace. And so this was a regular Sunday and we were all planning to go out. And then on the radio we heard that, you know, Pearl Harbor was attacked. We couldn' ; t believe it, but we thought, well, we' ; ll just continue our daily or weekly thing. So we went out for a ride and we must have, come back about 4 and then we had supper and then, around, then my Mom went to take a bath. And around 6, my Dad answered the door. I don' ; t know where my sister and I were, maybe we were in our rooms? And the next thing I know these two guys are taking my Dad away and my Dad said, well, they were taking down just to ask a few questions. And we said, well, Mom' ; s in the bathroom so bathed up, so should we go tell her? And they said no, you can' ; t do that. So, uh, yeah, I could still see him at the top of the steps, you know, going down with these two men on one, on either side of him. And so when my Mom came out of the tub, you know, we told her what happened and I didn' ; t know what happened after that. I, I do remember we waited you late waiting for him to come home and he didn' ; t come home. But then at that time I was in school. My sister was out of high school, so she, um, she knew what happened. But you know, I' ; ll always really too dumb to even ask what was going on at the time. AT: 00:14:47 How old? How old were you then? JM: 00:14:50 I had just turned 16. I was a junior in high school. AT: 00:15:01 That must have been really hard. JM: 00:15:01 Yeah, because then I went to school and the next day and these two gals that were Japanese, I asked one, gee what, you know, did they come and pick up your Dad? And she didn' ; t even know what I was talking about. And so I was kinda shocked because I kinda assume everybody' ; s Dad was picked up, you know, but she wasn' ; t. And then the other gal, hers, father wasn' ; t picked up either and I couldn' ; t understand what was going on. So, uh, yeah, that' ; s the way it was. AT: 00:15:41 Do you remember the, the conversations with your Mom after he left? JM: 00:15:49 No, I don' ; t remember anything at all. One thing I remember is we didn' ; t know where he was and we used to talk about that in one week went by and two weeks went by, three weeks went by and then my Mom said she found out that they were in the county jail. So uh about a month, you know, we found out where he was, you know, I guess my Mom and sister must have gone to visit him because I was in school so I don' ; t know what was going on and we didn' ; t, I don' ; t remember talking about it, but my Mom said, you know, Dad was at the jail so you better go visit him. And I did. I remember going down to visit him when he was in jail. I' ; ve visited him. You know behind bars and I don' ; t remember what we talked about except when I was leaving he said to me, well we may never see each other again so take good care of yourself. And I remember leaving crying. But other than that I don' ; t remember, you know much. AT: 00:17:33 That must have been really, really hard. JM: 00:17:33 Yeah. AT: 00:17:39 So do you think it was about a month after he was gone? That you went to visit him? JM: 00:17:43 Yeah, must have been a good month. AT: 00:17:50 And JM: 00:17:50 Well, the sad part of that was what he told me that I may never see him again. Is he died and I never did see him again. So. AT: 00:18:09 And ah, so following that, it must' ; ve been the Executive Order was signed. JM: 00:18:28 In February. AT: 00:18:29 Shortly. JM: 00:18:29 So then I didn' ; t know how my Mom manage, I think about it now and think, you know, of course my sister was there, but I remember we had her piano. I remember going back, going to the piano store that we bought it, we bought it at and he was right next door to my Mom' ; s laundry store and he bought that back and then there was a secondhand store on the other side of my Mom. I remember selling some stuff to him, but I think everything else she just left, you know, because I don' ; t think she could handle all that. Although some of her good pieces that she brought back from Japan. She had packed and taken it to the church and to have a stored during the war. But I don' ; t know, I think she just left it. Cause we could only carry, take what we could carry. I don' ; t even remember that. I know my sister and I, we used to say, how did we get to the assembly center? You know, I don' ; t know how we got there. AT: 00:20:05 Do you remember first hearing about it or hearing the news that you would have to leave? JM: 00:20:14 Yeah, I remember. And then the signs that went up on the telephone poles, but it' ; s very vague. AT: 00:20:23 The instructions? JM: 00:20:25 Yeah. Well, the whole incident' ; s kind of vague to me. AT: 00:20:32 Hmm. JM: 00:20:34 You know, not like not remembering how we got there. It sounds crazy but know I don' ; t remember. AT: 00:20:47 Hmm. Were there any other like what after Pearl Harbor was attacked, what else changed in your life? Obviously the absence of your father must have been huge, JM: 00:21:13 Yeah. AT: 00:21:13 But in your, like in your daily life or interactions at school did anything? JM: 00:21:18 No, I don' ; t think there was much different in school if there was. I don' ; t remember. You know how the kids treat each and stuff like that. I don' ; t remember. AT: 00:21:37 And then so when your family got the orders to leave, do you remember having to figure out what to do with all of your belongings? JM: 00:21:48 Yeah, and as I say, I think my Mom left everything. We had no relatives here and so it was just my Mom, my sister and I, we didn' ; t have cousins or uncles or any, anybody like that, so she did everything and depending on trends, but I' ; m sure they were busy with their own packing and whatever they had to do. AT: 00:22:16 Do you know if your Mom was in touch with them, her family in Japan or was there any like? JM: 00:22:27 She was, yeah, during that time and before the war too. Yeah. She used to write to her sister and her sister used to tell her, you know, things that are kind of suspicious. Things are great, but she felt there was gonna be a war AT: 00:22:56 In saying that from Japan? JM: 00:23:11 Yeah. AT: 00:23:11 So. So then where was your family assigned to go from Portland? JM: 00:23:18 Well, we went to the assembly center first and, well we lived in cubicles. No, no ceiling. And ah, since there were only three of us, we weren' ; t allowed one cubicle to ourselves. So we had to share with another family was a mother and a daughter. I think her father was a FBI pick up too. And uh, we didn' ; t know them. All I remember as I slept in one corner and she slept diagonally from me, but it must have been close quarters, I don' ; t remember. AT: 00:24:02 And this was Portland Assembly Center? JM: 00:24:06 Hmmh, Portland Assembly Center, where it used to be a livestock exposition ground and, you know, it was pretty bad. The smell and the flies--millions of flies and so they hung up a sticky flypaper we were just packed with flies and I got sick from the fly. I had upset stomach and threw up and everything from the fly and uh, didn' ; t really do too much there, you know, I hung around with a couple of girls and we used to just go out in the lawn and sit and just, you know, teenagers just kinda sit and gab. Except this one time we were out there and um, this cook came out of the kitchen and um, you went to the fence and he put his, move his fingers through the fence and just hung his arm down. You know, like some always say stick from behind. And then the next minute we heard the shot and this cook got shot. By, I think a guard. And he was Japanese because I saw his black hair, he just fell backwards and it hit him in the stomach and blood was oozing out of there and the other two girls and I, we ran as fast as we could and yelling, they' ; re shooting, they' ; re shooting us. And then we didn' ; t know why he got shot and we said, oh, we' ; ll find out when we get inside because people will be talking about it. Not a soul was talking about, it was just hush hush. But I later found out it was because he went near the fence, you know, he was just hanging there looking out into space. Probably having a lot of thoughts you know. But he, he got shot by this guard, you know, it was terrible. AT: 00:26:38 And this was all, you were not far from him? JM: 00:26:41 No, we weren' ; t far because we could see, you know, I think I even saw the gun in his hand, as he came down. No one seems to know what happened to this cook. You know, I' ; ve been curious ever since. And you know, I' ; ve been trying to find out, but no one seems to know. AT: 00:27:02 Did you see the guard who shot him? JM: 00:27:06 Yeah, well, he came down and he was coming down, but by then we just ran, you know, I don' ; t know what happened after that. AT: 00:27:16 Do you think he was um, like in one of the JM: 00:27:20 I think he was in the guard house. Yeah, because I think there was a guard house near there. AT: 00:27:33 Wow. Do you know about how old the cook was? JM: 00:27:37 I don' ; t know. He had his chef hat on, couldn' ; t tell. He was kind of heavy set person. Well, you know, he had all white on, so you could see the blood coming, oozing out from his stomach. AT: 00:27:58 And did you think because as you were saying that your friends were yelling, they' ; re shooting us. Did you see that they were going to be. JM: 00:28:06 Well we didn' ; t know we were near there, so we just, all three of us just yelled out, you know, they' ; re shooting. And we ran. AT: 00:28:19 Hmm. And after there was no, JM: 00:28:22 Nothing. It wasn' ; t in the paper. No one talked about it. In fact, about 10 years ago, I was talking to somebody who was also at the assembly center and she said, I never heard about it, so I guess it was a hush hush. AT: 00:28:42 Hmm. Do you. Should you try talking about it with your family? JM: 00:28:48 Yeah, they AT: 00:28:48 Did you tell them about what happened? JM: 00:28:48 Yeah, they know because I talk about it for 75 years, what happened to that cook. I hope he didn' ; t die, you know, his, his crime was going to the fence. I didn' ; t even know that until about 30 years ago and um, this other gal I met out here, she said when she was 5, she went to the fence to get a ball because she was playing with her ball. And um, a guard came up to her and told her and balled her out for coming to the fence. And she said to me, gee, at that time I was only 5 years old. I didn' ; t know any better. So. AT: 00:29:40 So is that what month in 42 is JM: 00:29:52 That was in May, end of May, I guess. We, we went there beginning of May. AT: 00:30:04 And I know you said you don' ; t really remember how you got there. Was it close to your hometown? JM: 00:30:12 I don' ; t know. I don' ; t. I think it was, I think was on the Northeast corner maybe. And we were on the East side. I don' ; t know. AT: 00:30:25 And how long has your family that JM: 00:30:28 In the assembly center? I don' ; t know. I think we must have moved down in September or August or something. AT: 00:30:40 And there, there wasn' ; t school there? JM: 00:30:42 No, not that, this was like summer vacation, you know. So...no, we just kind of, you know, enjoyed ourselves. I was a waitress who waited on tables and they had dancing there. I used to go dancing on weekends, you know, ballroom dancing. But other than that I don' ; t really remember anything else we did there. AT: 00:31:15 Can you tell me more about being a waitress? Was it like mess hall style or JM: 00:31:19 Yeah, we had the long bench like tables and we just served people, I just, you know, I don' ; t really remember too much. AT: 00:31:34 Did you get paid for that? JM: 00:31:37 I don' ; t know. Maybe we did, but I don' ; t know, I don' ; t re, maybe $7 a month. We got paid. AT: 00:31:51 And do you remember your first impressions when you first arrived to the assembly center? JM: 00:31:57 No, no, I don' ; t remember anything. I just remember having to live with another family. AT: 00:32:11 And getting sick. Was there ah, was there a hospital or treatment? JM: 00:32:16 I have no idea. I don' ; t remember. There was a post office, but I don' ; t remember anything else. AT: 00:32:28 It seems like your, your most vivid memory was the but the shooting, JM: 00:32:34 Yeah, the shooting and the flies and getting sick and living with another family AT: 00:32:46 And then it so September, your family was sent to Minidoka? JM: 00:33:00 I don' ; t even remember leaving camp. Just, all I remember is going on this train with the shades pulled down and then I don' ; t know how long it took or anything. But, once we got to Minidoka we were greeted with a huge dust storm and we, I think we had to wait outside for food, you know, food was just covered in sand. It was even not edible, but um, but other than that, I don' ; t really remember the beginning part of Minidoka, but I do remember being greeted by a sandstorm or dust storm. AT: 00:33:53 That must have been very different climate then-- JM: 00:33:57 Yeah, it was hot. Three figures in the summer, cold and rainy, and the mud was so bad. When you stepped in the mud, it would go up, you' ; d walk in, it would go up to your ankles. I mean your foot was sinking into the mud in. Eventually they put planks down so we didn' ; t have to walk up it. You' ; d walk in the mud and your shoe back there, you know, it was pretty bad. AT: 00:34:30 Were you prepared in terms of clothing and--? JM: 00:34:34 I don' ; t remember, but I know people used to order from Montgomery Ward. And I think that' ; s probably what we did. AT: 00:34:48 And when you were in Minidoka, did you start going to school again? JM: 00:34:53 Yeah, because I had my senior year there. Which, school is really not much of a school. AT: 00:35:04 In terms of-- JM: 00:35:06 Well I didn' ; t learn anything, it was just kind of a waste of time. AT: 00:35:13 Was that because of quality of teaching or lack of resources? JM: 00:35:17 I don' ; t know, it' ; s just maybe, you know, maybe it was me, me, maybe I didn' ; t apply myself, but I didn' ; t learn anything. They had this core curriculum but I just didn' ; t learn anything. I can' ; t take away anything from my senior year. So...it was kind of, I took Home Ec. I took bookkeeping. I learned credit and debit there, but other than that I don' ; t remember anything. AT: 00:36:03 When you were in camp, were you still speaking Japanese with your Mom? JM: 00:36:08 Yeah, I think so. Hmmh AT: 00:36:11 Would you ever speak with other kids your age or was it JM: 00:36:14 No, it was all English. Just my Mom. AT: 00:36:18 Hmm. And what was the um, the living arrangements? JM: 00:36:23 Well, we had only three in the family, so we had the end room of this barrack. There was 6 apartments, so to speak, depending on the size of your family, you got whatever size. And we had the end there, which is small. We didn' ; t stay in there too much. It' ; s crowded. We had canvas cots, I think and a little potbelly stove. And I think we had a card table. AT: 00:37:05 And one thing I wanted to ask, when you are going from place to place, to, so say from Portland to the assembly center and then the assembly center to Minidoka, ah each of these moves, were you moving with people you knew or were you ending up? JM: 00:37:25 I don' ; t remember. I have no idea. AT: 00:37:31 So you JM: 00:37:33 I' ; m sorry. I don' ; t remember anything like that. AT: 00:37:37 No, it' ; s fine. Um, so you didn' ; t stay in touch with people you met in the camp? JM: 00:37:44 No, I don' ; t. No, I made new friends. My allergies. AT: 00:37:53 Me too [laugh] I' ; m actually feeling that. Um, so by now. And then how long were you in Minidoka? JM: 00:38:09 Oh, after I finish my senior year I lived in, that was 1943. I lived in August or September. I kind of decided I wanted to go to school. I didn' ; t have any money. My parents had, had a college fund for me, but they couldn' ; t pay the premiums, you know, since they were in camp. So that lapsed. So, um, I, I just decided to go out. And my Mom, she was in a state of shock I think. So she just said, you know, go ahead. Oh, I was only 18 and didn' ; t know anybody but, uh, outside, but um, she said you want to go, go. And then in camp my sister almost died. So, uh, she, um, she was still recuperating and so she stayed behind with my Mom AT: 00:39:25 And and she, so she didn' ; t end up going to school? JM: 00:39:30 No, well, she was that age I think when you just graduated high school and everything was in turmoil, you know, and you weren' ; t applying to school, you were packing up your baggage, you know, so she never went. AT: 00:39:52 And so where did you ended up going with your? JM: 00:39:56 Oh, I went to Milwaukee is a domestic, and this woman had another Japanese girl before me and she had a family that lived there in Milwaukee. So weekends on her day off she' ; d go back home and I had nobody. I didn' ; t know anybody. I never did domestic work and she and I, we didn' ; t get along. AT: 00:40:30 Did not get along? JM: 00:40:30 No, uh, I got along great with the grandmother. But the young mother who was working for, she didn' ; t like me in, I probably didn' ; t like her. So one day she said, we' ; re no longer want your service. And she asked this other girl that I took the place of to come back until she found somebody, but then I was homesick and you know, I kinda wish I hadn' ; t left home and uh, and so anyway, I did know this one, couple young couple from back home, this was the son and the parents were good friends of my parents, so I called them and I asked him if I could stay with them for a few days until I find something new. And of course, WRA was great, I think was the WRA and anyway, they found me another job in uh, you know, three or four days. So then I went to this family and it was a young couple. She was 26 and he was 30 and we got along great. She had two kids and I was supposed to take care of the kids and then help her in the kitchen. So that worked out well and I was happy there. And so I was there. And then in the meantime, my Dad got released from the DOJ camps, so my sister was stronger. So she came out and she had a domestic job, so you know we communicate with each other. So it wasn' ; t bad. And once a week on my day off I' ; d go to business school so then I wouldn' ; t have to be domestic job for the rest of my life in. So things were going pretty good. AT: 00:42:49 Which school were you taking classes at? JM: 00:42:53 I don' ; t know, I can' ; t remember AT: 00:42:54 Was it? JM: 00:42:54 In Milwaukee. AT: 00:42:55 And your family friends, who you had contacted? JM: 00:43:03 Yeah AT: 00:43:04 About staying with them, were they Japanese American? JM: 00:43:06 Yeah. They were Nisei' ; s AT: 00:43:10 Living in Milwaukee? JM: 00:43:12 Hmmh AT: 00:43:12 So had they left camp? To find a job? JM: 00:43:15 I think so, yeah. He was an engineer. Yeah, because I don' ; t think before the war engineers, you know, found work on the West Coast. AT: 00:43:31 And I wanted to ask you because of course we have the letter from your father requesting to join you. Can you, can you tell me more about what you know of, of that process and exactly what happened? JM: 00:43:53 Well, I think that was the second or third attempt in asking for release. And each time he asked for a release, it would say, well that one, it said he' ; s intelligent, he' ; s a great leader, I can' ; t remember what the third was. But the big but, you were in all these organizations and you took, you were chair of the charity group of maybe other Japanese Association, I don' ; t know. But anyway, and because of that you cannot be released. That' ; s what it says in his record. And so, but he was not well. And so, uh, well he went from Missoula to Fort Sill to Fort Livingston and then Santa Fe and I think he was in the hospital at Fort Missoula for a week. And then in Livingston, he was in the hospital for 6 months. And when he wrote that letter he said he was not well. And I don' ; t know whether that made a difference. But anyway, he came home because his prognosis was not good. AT: 00:45:36 And so while of course when your sister and your Mom were in camp, you didn' ; t know, you still didn' ; t know where he was? JM: 00:45:45 No, we knew because we would get these letters from him full of holes. And I remember my Mom saying there was really no sense in writing to Dad because all his letters and nothing but cut outs and, you know, being censored, and she said probably ours is too. So I know she, she said, well, the only thing I can say is how are you? We' ; re doing okay in um, so he used to write to us, but, you know, wherever, after I read that book, I guess paper was scarce. So I guess he knew he wrote whatever he could get hold of, a writing, you know, paper. AT: 00:46:38 So that was, um, I actually wasn' ; t familiar with that. That writing, that paper was scarce. JM: 00:46:45 Oh, I' ; m sorry? AT: 00:46:46 I, I haven' ; t, I haven' ; t heard about that. JM: 00:46:48 Oh yeah, well that' ; s what it said in that book I read yeah, that it was scarce, but you know, they all helped each other. You got the paper to write on. AT: 00:47:01 Well, and that' ; s, that must' ; ve been pretty big then that he had a little notepad. It seems like. JM: 00:47:08 Yeah, I don' ; t kn, that' ; s why I wondered where he got the notepad, you know, after I read that I wondered, where did he get that notepad? They hit a canteen, I think. I' ; m not sure. But then according to that book, some families I think, were sending money, but I don' ; t remember whether my Mom sent money or not. You know, these guys are, their assets are all frozen. So when he was taken then you know, we couldn' ; t touch anything but my Dad had an account with me or I had an account with him at a bank. So I used to go every weekend or every month and sneak so much money on until the balance was zero. AT: 00:48:04 When, at what point were you doing that? JM: 00:48:10 That was after he was taken. So that was in ' ; 41. AT: 00:48:17 And um, so from the reports that you read after this has happened, um, there were claims that his involvement with the charity work JM: 00:48:35 Yeah AT: 00:48:35 Ah, and a couple of other organizations JM: 00:48:37 Yeah AT: 00:48:38 Where the reason why he called you at least JM: 00:48:39 Yeah, he belonged to about five organizations like the hotel organizations, the laundry organizations, the Japanese Association. This charity thing was bad because uh, this group got money to send to Japan, to the soldiers' ; families, and I guess government felt that was being unpatriotic. You know, he donated more than the rest of the people they claim. But then he was the head of it, s o maybe he did that just to show, you know, we should all donate money to the families. But those were the things that were against him. AT: 00:49:38 Were you familiar with that work that he was doing before the war? JM: 00:49:41 Well, I knew he was in a lot of organization and um, the Japanese Association. I know he started the Boy Scouts in Portland and my Mom was real happy about that because she used to tell me, you know, they finally got a Boy Scouts for the Japanese kids. AT: 00:50:00 Hmm. And ah, when he was writing, did you have any idea where he was writing from or where he was? JM: 00:50:14 Well, yeah, because it would say the camp he was from, you know. AT: 00:50:19 So that part wasn' ; t censored? JM: 00:50:21 No. So we knew where were he was. AT: 00:50:30 To go back a little bit. JM: 00:50:31 Yeah AT: 00:50:31 You were in Milwaukee? JM: 00:50:35 Yeah AT: 00:50:35 Uh JM: 00:50:35 And then my Dad died. So then I went back to camp and it was strange because, uh, my sister called that day and she said, you know, I want to come over and you know, we never got together except on our day off and this was not our day off. So she came over and she was with me because it wasn' ; t my deal. So she stayed with me. And then that night we got a phone call and from camp and it said, you need to come home, because Dad isn' ; t feeling well. And so the couple that I was staying at was wondering how urgent it was because I had to get a plane fare and all this stuff. So we called again to find out how urgent it was and they told us that he had died. So then we decided it was urgent, so we went back when my sister and I feel bad, I think I left my stuff there at this house. I was thinking about it the other day I wonder what happened to. I think she wrote me and asked me what should we do with your things and I think I just told her just throw it away. AT: 00:52:05 Hmm. JM: 00:52:06 But I never really kept up with them. They were, you know, good to me compared to what happened with the first family. AT: 00:52:21 And um, when your, when your father was released, and came to Minidoka was he just staying with your Mom? Had your older sister left already? JM: 00:52:33 Yeah, yeah, because from Milwaukee, I went back to camp for the funeral and then I left again in August, I think. And I went to Iowa, and I went to a Methodist college, Simpson College. I went there one year. I worked in the kitchen, to make, so I could have room and board free and I had made enough money for the tuition. So then when the school year ended, in the meantime, my Mom had left camp and she didn' ; t want to go back to the West Coast. So she said she wanted to start new out East, so she came out here to Detroit and so after my first year as Simpson, I went to Detroit and I was there in Michigan for about three months and I worked, I didn' ; t like working, so I thought, well there must be a better way of doing things and working. And I thought, well I' ; m going to go back to school again. So in those days, it' ; s not like today. And I went up to Michigan, University of Michigan, I talked to the administrative person, gave him my story and he said you can start this semester, which was like next week. And uh, but in the meantime he had to get my transcripts and stuff. So he got my transcripts and Michigan would not accept my high school credits from camp. So that meant what that meant, the one year that I did at Simpson, they took those credits and put it down to my high school credits. So that because of that then I was accepted. But then in the meantime I lost so many hours. So I went a couple of summers to make up for the hours that I lost in, but um, it worked, you know, it worked out fine. AT: 00:55:01 When you were at Simpson, what were you, were you on any kind of track or what were you studying? JM: 00:55:06 Oh I wasn' ; t. I was just, you know, it was small. It was during the war. There were only 394 kids, it was smaller than my high school. I guess that' ; s what I didn' ; t like about it. It was like high school. I did live in a dorm, which was a good experience, but I don' ; t know, I just, I didn' ; t care for it. I mean you know, I guess I thought it was his college, you know, it' ; s small. So then I went the opposite and went to Michigan with about 35,000 students, you know, but. AT: 00:55:56 Do you know any, anything more about your mother' ; s decision to move East? JM: 00:56:02 No, because I really wasn' ; t there. Just what my sister said. She just said Mom just didn' ; t want to go back because there was nothing to go back to. She lost her business. My Dad lost his business. He wasn' ; t around anymore, so she said there was no use going back. So she said it' ; s going to start new. She wanted to go out East. AT: 00:56:38 And um, as far as the rest of your schooling, um, did you finish at University of Michigan? JM: 00:56:46 Yeah I finished at University of Michigan in ' ; 48. AT: 00:56:50 Hmm. And hat was your degree in? JM: 00:56:53 I had a BS degree, I don' ; t know what it was. It was a long time ago. Yeah. AT: 00:57:03 And, and where did you go from there? JM: 00:57:05 Oh, then in the meantime, my Mom, uh, moved to Chicago because she really couldn' ; t find a good job in Detroit. She was doing domestic and then she, what was she doing? She was working in a nursing home and she had her room and board there, but she, um, but had friends here and the friends said come to Chicago, you' ; ll find a better job. My Mom was a good seamstress so she said, come to Chicago. So that' ; s what she did. And when I finished I came here. AT: 00:57:51 Was your sister still in Detroit? JM: 00:57:53 My sister was here, but then she moved back to Detroit. AT: 00:58:00 And um, where did your Mom end up in Chicago? Do you know which neighborhood or... JM: 00:58:06 Well, she was on the South Side know, but eventually we moved North. AT: 00:58:15 Hmm. On the South Side, would that have been Hyde Park area? JM: 00:58:18 No. Further South. AT: 00:58:22 Do you know the, what the area is called? JM: 00:58:25 Well, it was, it was on Cottage Grove. She lived in this apartment owned by a Japanese where this friend that she was corresponding with in Detroit also lived in the same place. Yeah. It was in the Black neighborhood. AT: 00:58:45 And when you arrived, what, what were you doing? Where did you JM: 00:58:50 Well I stayed with her for. Yeah. And then then we moved North, so I had my own room and stayed with her. And where, where was that? That was on Grace street. On Broadway. There off of the drive. AT: 00:59:14 Lakeview Area? JM: 00:59:15 Lakeview, I think. AT: 00:59:18 And were you doing anything for work? JM: 00:59:21 I' ; m sorry? AT: 00:59:22 For work? JM: 00:59:22 Yeah, I, in the meantime then I found a job at Northwestern and always doing a research work. AT: 00:59:32 Can you tell me more about that position? So you were commuting from? JM: 00:59:38 Yeah, from there, on Grace to Northwestern and just doing kind of lab work, you know. AT: 00:59:54 And so that' ; s something that I' ; ve probably your degree helped you? JM: 01:00:04 Yeah, yeah. AT: 01:00:04 And what do you, what do you remember about that neighborhood at the time that you were living there? What was it like? JM: 01:00:12 Do you mean on Grace? AT: 01:00:14 Yeah JM: 01:00:15 It was nice. You know, it was, I don' ; t know how it is now, but it was nice then. I just remembered being safe and I used to go down to Lincoln Park and take a, what do you call it? Polishing stones, lapidary is it? I think. Yeah. And did enameling. I used to go to two or three times a week. It was convenient. The bus was right there on the corner and it was safe to come home late. And so it was a good neighborhood. AT: 01:01:04 And so when you were commuting places, were you traveling mostly by bus? JM: 01:01:10 Yeah. Those days it was pretty frequent. The buses came one right after another and it was cheap. AT: 01:01:24 And what were the, at the time, what were the general demographics and living like you were there other Japanese Americans?? JM: 01:01:36 I don' ; t remember. I don' ; t think so. Not unl, well, I think this building had Japanese. Yeah. Yeah, they did. It was owned by Japanese person. AT: 01:01:58 And so this, um, this was around the time where there were a few activities for young Japanese American folks in the city. Were you involved at all with JM: 01:02:14 No, I wasn' ; t, I just went to the church. I don' ; t know what it was called. I think it' ; s called Ravenswood now. But I wasn' ; t involved in any of that. AT: 01:02:27 And then did you know anyone else besides your family in Chicago? JM: 01:02:38 Did I know? AT: 01:02:39 Anyone else? Did you have any friends or JM: 01:02:42 Not really. Well, I used to go the Resettlers, you know, you know make friends there. Well, yeah, I guess I did. Yeah. Yeah. AT: 01:02:57 And what, what brought you to the Resettlers Committee? JM: 01:03:02 I think just to get to know more people, you know, we were all kind of...didn' ; t know anybody. Remember when we first came out here. First thing you' ; d ask would be which camp were you in? [laughs] AT: 01:03:30 And do you remember how you found out about Resettlers Committee? Is that just something that people knew about or--? JM: 01:03:37 I don' ; t know. I had no idea. AT: 01:03:41 And when you were going, where was it located? JM: 01:03:43 I don' ; t remember. I' ; m not much, not very helpful. I don' ; t remember. AT: 01:03:49 But did JM: 01:03:49 Yeah AT: 01:03:49 Go ahead. JM: 01:03:53 No, I think Dan Kuzahara was a head of that. I don' ; t know. Maybe we knew him or something. I don' ; t know. I, I, I can' ; t say, AT: 01:04:10 But it, it helped you meet other JM: 01:04:12 Other people. AT: 01:04:16 And where did you meet your husband? JM: 01:04:17 I met him at church. AT: 01:04:20 And when, when did you get married or how long JM: 01:04:27 We got married in ' ; 58. AT: 01:04:34 And did you meet him when you first arrived in Chicago from going to church or? JM: 01:04:47 I don' ; t know when I met him (laughs), love at first sight. I don' ; t remember anything. AT: 01:04:51 And ah, when you got married did you move from Grace Street? JM: 01:04:55 Yeah. No, what happened was when we got married, we were looking for some place to live and there was prejudice there. So we would go to these places that had " ; For Rent" ; signs and they would come to the door and just say, oh, we just rented the place. Well, we knew that they hadn' ; t. I' ; d go by there a month later, the " ; For Rent" ; sign is still there. And we had, you know, several of those experiences. One time I called an ad in the paper and this guy answered. He is such a heavy accent. I could hardly understand him. And I asked him if he would rent to Japanese Americans and in his heavy accent he would say I' ; d like to, but if I did, my tenants would complain so I can' ; t. So that was that. But then we saw another for rent sign on Grace Street, about a block from my Mom and we went there and it was a German lady. She had an accent and she was very willing to rent to us. So we had a third floor, three or four bedroom apartment, which was nice. AT: 01:06:19 And has your work changed? JM: 01:06:25 No, I was still down at Northwestern. AT: 01:06:28 How long were you at Northwestern? JM: 01:06:30 Oh no, I guess I had gone to work for a doctor and I was doing some of her lab work. I don' ; t know, do you know of a Dr. Farnsworth? AT: 01:06:45 Sorry? JM: 01:06:45 Farnsworth. She had that Mies van der Rohe house. It' ; s on the Fox River. It gets flooded. It' ; s an all glass house. AT: 01:07:01 I don' ; t know. JM: 01:07:01 Well, anyway, that was her house and she was going to a, a battle with him. She was suing him and he was well known architect and um, so she used to tell me the latest, uh, what was going on with her and the legal battles she was having. Now, I worked for her for about three years I think, but I didn' ; t particularly care for the office environment, so I went back to Northwestern and got another research job and I stayed there until I got pregnant and then I left there. AT: 01:07:54 And so have you been on the...Were you on the North Side through most of your marriage or? JM: 01:08:02 Yeah, I consider myself a North sider even though we live on the South Side. AT: 01:08:07 When did you make that move? JM: 01:08:08 Well then my husband got a job in park force, which is pretty far. This was before Dan Ryan, so he did that for two years and by then our daughter was 2, so we decided to move up to the South Suburbs and that' ; s how we ended up there. But my heart is always on the North Side. Yeah. AT: 01:08:41 And do you just have one? JM: 01:08:43 No, I have a son and a daughter. She, she lives in Downers. She has her own business. AT: 01:08:54 And um, do you remember where they were going to school? JM: 01:09:00 Yeah, yeah. When she got to be a, well we moved out to Harvey first. It was a real nice town. I loved the place, but the schools were not that good, and Homewood-Flossmoor had great schools. So we moved to Homewood cause my husband' ; s friends or coworkers, told him to move there. But um we were kind of hesitant because we had heard there was an incident with a Japanese family there. Who lived there and they were not welcomed. But anyway, I' ; m the executive director where am I was my work and said there' ; s a house rent for rent next door to him. So she want to look at it, you know, so it was kind of a or year old house, but it was better than living in Harvey and having our daughter go to a school that we didn' ; t really think was that great. So we moved to, also, then I called the owner of the house and I gave her the same spiel. We' ; re Japanese Americans and would you rent to us? And she says, oh, by all means, you know, you' ; re welcome to rent the house. So, um, with those words we were, you know, we moved in and, well, my husband did a lot of work on the house because it was really in bad shape and uh, we moved there. And I made friends. Well, the neighbors are really nice to me. They were around the same age and when you have kids the same age and you know, your mother, the mothers, the parents that get together. And um, but uh, there was this one gal I was quite friendly with and later on she told me that there were some neighbors that were unhappy that you move in, but I figured, well we' ; re renting so why would they feel bad? But actually, you know, openly, we didn' ; t have any problems. AT: 01:11:19 Hmm. Would you say that? Um, that was one of, that was the biggest challenge of life in Chicago was? JM: 01:11:29 No, not really. I didn' ; t really feel any prejudice except for the apartment hunting. Yeah, AT: 01:11:37 So that, that kind of prejudice, it wasn' ; t really. You didn' ; t experience it sounds like you didn' ; t experience that before your. JM: 01:11:46 Yeah. No really, especially when we moved to Homewood, there were some people that are really happy to see us and they wanted to know about, about us and everything. So, and you know, my kids, they participated in the, what little league and my daughter was in girl scouts and they were well accepted so I don' ; t think I didn' ; t, I don' ; t remember any really bad experience probably behind my back yeah, but yeah you know. AT: 01:12:27 And in this area was there like, I know closer in the, in the city, like on the North Side. And also the South Side that there were things like, uh, the, that you' ; ve backed the basketball league, um, or a different baseball teams or bowling leagues or you know, things for, for young people of Japanese descent. Was there anything like that in Homewood or nearby? JM: 01:13:07 No, I think we were the only Japanese in town, probably. You know, because they went to HF and there weren' ; t any, maybe there were a couple of Chinese people, you know, kids, but I think they were basically the only Japanese students. AT: 01:13:27 Hmm. And when your kids were growing up, did you ever. JM: 01:13:32 Well, yeah. You mean the, the prejudice? No. AT: 01:13:36 Oh, I was gonna ask if, um, you ever spoke to them about, um, your experiences during the war? JM: 01:13:44 Oh, no, not really. Yeah. No, I never said. Maybe, you know, little touch here and there. I think when they were in high school we asked them if it was in their social studies book or history book and she showed us one little paragraph with maybe two sentences that mentioned evacuation. But other than that, I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t really remember talking about it. I may have, but I don' ; t remember AT: 01:14:25 At any point did they, do you remember them asking you about it or like maybe later in their life were they JM: 01:14:32 Not really. AT: 01:14:36 And then before I interrupted you, it' ; s, you' ; re going to say something about your kids experiencing prejudice. JM: 01:14:48 Oh yeah in school. Yeah, there were some kids. I think my daughter, she came home one day when she was in second grade I think or third grade and she said she didn' ; t want to go out in the playground and play and anymore. I think it was because people were calling her names and she didn' ; t like that so she didn' ; t want to go out. And I remember I went to the school, talked to the teacher, she was Jewish. She understood exactly what I was saying. So she said she would resolve it in some way. And then my son, I don' ; t know what grade he was but similar kept calling him, you know chink, or you know what they used to do and he said he had had it. So he was taking judo at the time. So he took this kid and threw him over his shoulder and he said he' ; s never said anything after that. So they uh, he solved his own problem. But those are the only two incidents that I can remember. Is basically I, I just feel, you know, things were okay, I think. AT: 01:16:30 And uh, as we start wrapping up, I know you had mentioned that you took some notes for the things that you wanted to be sure to talk about. One of them was the incident at the assembly center. Was there anything, anything else? Well, and one thing I wanted to be sure to ask you about was about your research. Um, both what happened to your father and also his incident. Can you tell me more about what that process has been like for you when you started looking into these cases? JM: 01:17:11 My Dad' ; s stuff. Um well actually it' ; s been behind my mind or in my mind for years. I uh, Portland had an FBI exhibit in 2010 or something and I, and at the time I found out I could get the reports on my Dad. So, um, I wrote and they sent me like 100 pages of this stuff and I just kinda let it sit in the closet. Well, since I can' ; t move around too much anymore in June I thought well, and I found a note books in the house, archival, archival notebook. I thought oh this will be good for my Dad. So that' ; s when I started in June and I, uh, I had the WRA report I sent for that, but there' ; s nothing in there. He was only there 6 months and it was mostly about his disability insurance and there' ; s nothing there. But in the DOJ report it told what happened to him and uh, you know, it helped me a lot because I' ; ve always wondered what went on and then I got to reading these books again and you know, I understood them, or I understood more what was going on and what happened. And this last book I read it was written by a Hawaiian guy and it' ; s mostly about his Hawaiian friends in the camp, but still it tells about, you know, what happened to them and the abuses and you know, I didn' ; t really know there was that much abuse, but I guess there was. AT: 01:19:22 And what has that been like to kind of go back and dig into the details of JM: 01:19:31 Well, it' ; s been sad. AT: 01:19:34 Hmm. JM: 01:19:36 I um, someone asked me were you, are you bitter about it? And I thought, well, I might have been at one time, but I was more sad, you know, that something like this happened. That all of these things happened to these men. They were, they were held, held for no reason than being a leader in the government wanted them out of the community so the Japanese people that were left behind wouldn' ; t know what to do, and uh, you know. And then some of the guys that got killed in these camps because they went to near the fence, like the cook. And uh, it' ; s just, you know, I, I kinda feel satisfied after all these years. AT: 01:20:34 Hmm. JM: 01:20:35 That I finally found out. Right now I' ; m the, um, I wrote to the FBI and trying to get their, uh, FBI files. But you have to go through the Freedom of Information Act. So I' ; m trying, well, I' ; m waiting for them to give me a number so I can follow up on that. I don' ; t know if there' ; s anything there, but when I' ; ve written they tell me, well, I guess there are four files you can get. The DOJ the WRA, the FBI and Immigration and Naturalization, interested in the Immigration and Naturalization. I don' ; t know what would be in there? But the other three I am, interested in. I got the two so. AT: 01:21:31 And I, I think. Oh yeah. Because that the immigration, they were overseeing Crystal City, which he never went to a different department of Justice Camp. JM: 01:21:46 I' ; m sorry? AT: 01:21:49 I was just, um, we can talk about. Okay. And that that' ; s been a very recent process it sounds like that you started. JM: 01:22:07 Yeah, the DOJ files, you know, or not because I started that in 2016 and the WRA files probably around the same time, but actually going through the whole thing I' ; m making the scrapbook is since June and it seems every time I' ; m finished there' ; s always something new. Now, I got the FBI files I' ; m working on, but then, you know, I got the translation of my Dad' ; s memo. So like I have that in the script or, and, and the, the journal. Yeah, the job letter. AT: 01:22:46 Where did you find that? JM: 01:22:48 My Mom carried it around in, you know, we lost everything. We had some stuff in the apartment in the locker and someone broke in and took it and so there was nothing. We had nothing but my Mom did, you know, hang onto that and memo, so. But it was interesting because on one of the notes he wrote the Spanish Council was here today and I thought, " ; Oh that' ; s strange." ; But then as I read the book, they were called, they depended on the Spanish Council to iron out things and I guess they had all this abuse. So in Missoula or I guess other camps, but he was in Missoula I think at the time. Either there or Fort Sill and he wrote Spanish Council and I thought, oh they must have come to see what the abuses were. Yeah. AT: 01:23:59 And how does it feel to see, because you have a sweater that your Mom knitted you and also that book. Oh, how does that feel to see those in an exhibition is setting? JM: 01:24:15 Well, I' ; m kinda happy because now people know. I mean it should be brought out. There should be a conversation on it. You know, I, I even myself, I never talked about it because I just felt uncomfortable telling people my Dad was picked up by the FBI because he was an enemy alien. Well, now with that exhibit from Portland and all this stuff, yeah, it' ; s, I' ; m glad it' ; s out I can talk about it. So. AT: 01:24:53 And to you, why is that something that' ; s important to share or that for people to know about? JM: 01:25:04 I' ; m sorry? AT: 01:25:04 Why, why is it important to you for people to know about it? JM: 01:25:10 Well, it' ; s a history and people should know what happened to the Japanese people, you know, people of color. It' ; s a racist thing, you know. Yeah, like my Dad, he really didn' ; t do anything. He was trying to help the community by being in all of this organization. He wasn' ; t an enemy alien. He was going to say, I mean he stayed here when you were supposed to go back to Japan because he liked it here. You know. And we were raised to, you know, think American and be proud of our country and everything so people should know that, where even the shooting people should know what happened. AT: 01:26:14 Um, as we wrap up here, one question I like to ask is, um, what are your, well, I guess first, what if you could leave some kind of legacy or message for your children and grandchildren? What would you want that to be? JM: 01:26:39 I don' ; t know. It will be a personal thing. Yeah. So like, you know, is that do to your grandfather. It shouldn' ; t happen again. AT: 01:26:55 And what kind of hopes do you have for, for your kids and grandkids? JM: 01:27:01 Well, my kids, you know, they' ; re doing pretty well, but I don' ; t know, the climate that it is today. I kind of wonder. I hope that people care for each other more. You know, we' ; re different, but we' ; re the same. Yeah. I have a very good Black American. Yeah. What is it? African American friend. You know, we get into these discussions and she feels the same way. Yeah. Because I don' ; t know too much about Black history, but I just finished reading the book The Other Half That Hasn' ; t Been Told. Have you heard? Yeah. It gives a history of the Blacks, they were even treated rotten. I mean we were treated rotten but they were also treated rotten. You know, sad. So. AT: 01:28:21 Is um, there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? JM: 01:28:26 No, not really. I don' ; t know. Just that one book that really didn' ; t tell the true story of the shooting. That kind of upset me, but you know what, I wrote to uh Densho. They sent me an oral history of somebody I knew and he said the same thing that I saw. So I felt better about that, that I wasn' ; t the only one who saw this. AT: 01:29:08 Hmm. And what, what' ; s the book that you' ; re referring to that didn' ; t have the JM: 01:29:13 Well, I don' ; t know whether I should say. So you can cut it out. AT: 01:29:20 Okay (laughs) JM: 01:29:22 It' ; s called The Gift and it' ; s a story that this grandfather told this Sansei in, on this one page, he says that it was a white cook. And that really upset me because it wasn' ; t a white cook, you know. But then on the other hand when I was reading the Interment Odyssey Furuya, says that he, he lists a number of people that helped him, you know, like doctors and there was this one doctor, he was very appreciative of because of uh, here were two detainees that were shot in Lordsburg and um, he was in the government demanded that he put a different reason for their death and he didn' ; t, he wouldn' ; t do it. So I thought, well maybe that' ; s what happened with this. What happened at that time? They were not supposed to say it was a Japanese cook. AT: 01:30:44 Hmm. JM: 01:30:47 You know, it was a hush hush. I could still see the guy with his in his white chef uniform with blood oozing out of his stomach. It was a horrible sight. Then at 16, you know? AT: 01:31:06 Hmm. JM: 01:31:08 But I' ; m glad that was, you know, cleared up now. I feel better about that. AT: 01:31:18 Hmm. Anything else? JM: 01:31:19 No, nothing really. AT: 01:31:22 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. JM: 01:31:25 Oh, yeah. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MizutaJunko20171004.xml MizutaJunko20171004.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Mizuta, Junko (10/4/2017)
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2017-10-04
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Morita, Yoko
Interview Keyword
Nichiren Buddhism
Portland, OR
Portland Assembly Center
Minidoka
Mud
Property Loss
Nisei
Waller High School
Skyleens
Ro Babes
Social Clubs
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Chicago Nichiren Buddhist Church
Ikebana
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/4/2018 Morita, Yoko (9/4/2018) 1:40:41 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nichiren Buddhism Portland, OR Portland Assembly Center Minidoka Mud Property Loss Nisei Waller High School Skyleens Ro Babes Social Clubs Edgewater Beach Hotel Chicago Nichiren Buddhist Church Ikebana Morita, Yoko Takada, Anna video 1:|17(5)|37(14)|53(3)|73(8)|94(4)|117(15)|135(15)|150(9)|164(8)|199(8)|214(7)|229(4)|244(8)|261(9)|274(9)|290(9)|306(16)|322(11)|337(2)|350(1)|363(5)|377(11)|400(3)|422(3)|434(14)|450(12)|463(5)|482(13)|495(2)|517(3)|532(11)|558(3)|581(7)|600(10)|618(17)|634(7)|648(7)|669(14)|687(5)|705(3)|729(4)|759(11)|771(8)|783(5)|801(8)|828(10)|849(13)|862(9)|886(14)|906(4)|924(3)|941(13)|957(11)|976(2)|994(2)|1010(13)|1026(4)|1041(2)|1060(12)|1071(12)|1083(5)|1101(8)|1114(4)|1135(9)|1155(6)|1174(10)|1184(13)|1210(4)|1222(8)|1233(14)|1246(7)|1270(6)|1290(5)|1307(8)|1324(11)|1335(15)|1347(3)|1363(1)|1381(6)|1401(6)|1412(7)|1427(6)|1445(10)|1459(8)|1471(5)|1483(10)|1502(14)|1515(2)|1526(9)|1539(1)|1555(14)|1570(1)|1583(1)|1600(5)|1615(4)|1632(7)|1643(1)|1658(6)|1670(3)|1684(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/601361744/a257afd1fb Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601361744?h=a257afd1fb" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Yoko Morita, a nisei born in Canada in 1935, discusses her family's pre-WWII movements between Vancouver, Japan, and Portland and their forced removal to Minidoka after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. After incarceration, the family returned to Portland before eventually moving to Chicago. The daughter of a Nichiren Buddhist priest, she shares memories of life in Minidoka and of the Japanese American community in Portland in the immediate postwar era, particularly the social events that took place in her father's temple. She also recounts her arrival in Chicago as a teenager in 1951, including her participation in a girls club, the Chicago nisei social scene, experiences at Waller High School, and employment at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. Also notable are her memories of assisting her mother, the founder of the Mishokai ikebana school in Chicago. Having lived in many places as an adult, including Japan, Florida, and the Washington, D.C. area, she expresses an attachment to Chicago as her " ; furusato" ; or hometown. She concludes her interview by expressing a desire for future generations to know and appreciate Japanese culture. Anna Takada: Okay. This is an interview with Yoko Morita as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on September 4th, 2018 at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Yoko Morita is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? Yoko Morita: My full name is Yoko Morita, formerly Arakawa. Anna Takada: And can you tell me about where and when you were born? Yoko Morita: I was born in Vancouver, British Columbia in 1935. My father was a Buddhist priest and he had a temple in Vancouver. Anna Takada: Okay. And what, what' ; s your birthday? Yoko Morita: June 27th, 1935. Anna Takada: Okay. And, and can you tell me about where your parents were originally from? Yoko Morita: Yes. My mother was from Tokyo and my father was from Nagoya, Japan. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: But they met in Tokyo while he was at University tra-training to be a priest. Anna Takada: Okay. And what kind of priest was he training to be? Yoko Morita: My father was a Nichiren Buddhist priest and we had a temple here in Chicago... Well, we, he started in Vancouver and then he went back a year for training, more training. And we came back. When we came back to North America, he was assigned to Portland, Oregon in 1939. And so then of course the war began in ' ; 41 and we all were sent to Minidoka. Anna Takada: And how much do you know or could you tell me about kind of your, your parents' ; backgrounds as far as their families? Yoko Morita: Sure. My father was one of six children and he was the third son. He had four brothers and two sisters. And my mother was in-- family in Tokyo and she was a family of five siblings, two brothers and three sisters. And she was the middle sister. Her family was two boys and then three girls, and she was the middle. And my father and my mother met in Tokyo while he was at Rissho University in Tokyo, which is the university that trains the priests for our temple. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And what was your mother doing at that time? Yoko Morita: I think my, I don' ; t think, well in that era, I don' ; t think she was working yet. And she was still, let' ; s see, they were married when she was in her early 20' ; s, so, she was probably still living at home with her parents. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, and so Vancouver, was that, so that was after his schooling. Was that a situation where he was assigned to go there or he decided? Yoko Morita: No, he was, he wanted to come abroad, go abroad. And so they assigned him to Vancouver. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: And it was an assignment really more than anything else. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so did your mother go with him? Yoko Morita: Well, my dad went in 1931 first by himself and they were talking about getting married. Her father said, " ; We have to get you married even in paper ' ; cause you know, neither of you may not be able to wait." ; ' ; Cause they knew he couldn' ; t come back for four years. So, they got married and I believe she stayed at home with her parents though. And he came back for her in 1935. Anna Takada: And, and then, so she joined him. Yoko Morita: Then she, they came back together. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so you were, you were born in ' ; 35. Yoko Morita: In Vancouver, British Columbia. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Did you have any siblings? Yoko Morita: I, we are a family of five and I have two sisters and two brothers. And my sis-- the next one was a sister. Her first name is Yoshiko and she was born in 1936. And then I had a brother born in 1938. His name was Hirotada. And then I had a brother born in 1940 and his name was Tadayasu. His friends here in Chicago only know him as T-bone. And then I have a sister who lives here now who was born after the war in 1949. Anna Takada: And what' ; s her name? Yoko Morita: Noriko. Anna Takada: And what are your parents' ; names? Yoko Morita: Yohaku. And my mother' ; s name is Shizue. Anna Takada: And so you were the, the eldest-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: ...Of your siblings. And so how long were you in Vancouver? Yoko Morita: We were in Vancouver until 1939 when we, he went back for additional training. We went back for a year. Anna Takada: To Japan? Yoko Morita: Wait, wait, I' ; m sorry. 1938 and then we came back to Vancouver in 1939. Anna Takada: Okay. So do you have any, would you happen to have any memories of Vancouver or Japan? Yoko Morita: No, not really because we left Vancouver in ' ; 39 and I was only four. Anna Takada: Right. Yoko Morita: Right. I know stories. Like, several years ago I, we went to the West, my sister and I went to the West Coast to visit and we decided to go to Vancouver to see if we could find the old temple, which we couldn' ; t. But I was in contact with one of the ladies who was a member of the temple, and she said-- And we stayed with her and she took us around and she couldn' ; t remember where the temple was either, but she said, " ; I babysat you when you were a baby." ; (laughs) So, it was fun. But, I have no memory of exactly anything about Vancouver or going back to Japan. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And was it Tokyo that you went back to? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And then, so how long were you there? Yoko Morita: We were there for a, a year. We left, we went in ' ; 38 and came back in ' ; 39. Anna Takada: And I guess before I get into kind of your family' ; s trajectory of where you were living and all of that, could you share a little bit about this particular, I guess, I don' ; t know if you can call it a sect of Buddhism, Nichiren? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And, kind of what, can you describe that I guess? Yoko Morita: Well, I don' ; t know if I could compare it to any other sect, but Nichiren was founded by a priest who trained to become a priest in a different sect and found that he was not happy with it and he started studying on his own and, and then founded his own in 1282 I believe. And he founded it, but he was persecuted because he was, this particular region at that time was very nationalistic. And so he was persecuted by the government. He was sent in exile. At one point he was sentenced to be executed. And the story goes that there was a storm and the, the executioner' ; s blade broke instead of-- So they released him. And then he was basically a nationalistic and religion... A sect for more of the lower class people. It wasn' ; t for the elite and the intellectual. But, and I think, I' ; m not really sure about you know, in comparison to others, but I think Nichiren is not the largest, one of the larger ones, but it' ; s, you know it' ; s, it' ; s one of the older ones. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And is, are there any ways in which it is unique, I guess, from other sects of Buddhism, you know, more than origin story or, like whether in practice, or...? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t think so ' ; cause I don' ; t know any of the others, but you know, the shin-- I think it' ; s the Shingon that says " ; nami amida butsu" ; [" ; namu amida butsu" ; ] as their chant when they pray most of the time, and ours is " ; Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" ; . And you know, you' ; re supposed to repeat that at, in, at, at any time for whatever reason. So that' ; s, those are the only two big differences that I know. (laughs) Anna Takada: Okay, okay. Yeah. And, and thank you for sharing. It' ; s helpful to know more about... Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Okay, so in ' ; 39 you were back in Vancouver? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And were you all there ' ; till the start of the war, or...? Yoko Morita: No, then we went to Portland in 1940. Anna Takada: Okay. Oh, because he was moved to-- Yoko Morita: Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so, do I have it right that he was, he was being assigned to different-- Yoko Morita: Definitely, yes. Anna Takada: ...Locations and then he was kind of leading, leading the temple on his own there, or...? Yoko Morita: Well, no, the Nichiren Buddhist organization here in the United States had an organization where we had a headquarter temple, which was at that time, was located in Los Angeles. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: And we had, you know a head archbishop who headed the organization and, and the priests got together for their annual meetings and things like that. But we were in Portland until the war, and then we were sent to Minidoka because most of the people in, in Portland went to Minidoka. Anna Takada: I see. And do you have memories of living in Portland before the war? Yoko Morita: Yes, some in that-- At that time, you know, things were going fairly well for the Japanese Americans. And we had a separate home for the priest who, and his family. So we had a house and we visited and I remember going to different members' ; homes and things like that. But that' ; s about it because I was seven when I, when we were in camp, when we went to camp. Anna Takada: And were you enrolled in school, or...? Yoko Morita: Yes, I, I went to kindergarten and first grade, but the first day in kindergarten, of course in my household, my father was a Buddhist priest, so the people he met 99% of the time were Japanese Isseis. So everything' ; s in Japanese. My mother was a stay at home mother, so it was all Japanese. She really didn' ; t need any English. And so when they sent me to school in kindergarten, first day, they sent me home and they said teach her some English before she comes back. Because in those days we didn' ; t have television. You couldn' ; t learn from watching. And of course turning on the radio made gibberish, so I didn' ; t speak any English when I first went to kindergarten and I finished first grade. And I think by the time we went to camp, I had started second grade. Anna Takada: Do you, I, do you have, do you like personally remember going to school, and... Yoko Morita: No, those are only stories. Right. Anna Takada: Okay, and did you eventually... Well, I guess another question. Did you go to Japanese school or Sunday school or anything outside of kind of your typical-- Yoko Morita: Yes, Saturday morning Japanese school. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Do you have memories of that, or...? Yoko Morita: Not before the war, but we did have Japanese school after the war again. And, and I do remember having, you know, going to class on Saturday mornings with a lot of other Japanese kids, members of our church. And so, but you know it' ; s just Saturday morning for a couple of hours and you really don' ; t... But in my case, because both of my parents only spoke Japanese, I maintained my Japanese, retained it a lot. And then when we came back, we started you know ikebana classes and my mother didn' ; t speak in English, but she had a lot of American students, so I did translating for her. So basically, my Japanese was you know, fairly good. In fact, even today I' ; m pretty, pretty much literal already. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, so you mentioned that you were, you were being housed by the temple. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Do you, do you remember that, what that living situation was like or what the house was like itself? Yoko Morita: It was a very nice house, you know with a living-- typical small house. And it was located next to the church, so the building itself. So it was nice. And, and for that time, I guess, you know I mean, the economy wasn' ; t that great and the Japanese community wasn' ; t that large, but they were able to afford to pay the rent for the house and buy us a car and that kind of thing. But, so-- And I, I do remember going on trips to call on, on our members you know, in the car and things like that. But that' ; s about it. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, if you had to guess, what kind of size would you say the, the temple was as far as members in Portland? Yoko Morita: As far as members, Nichiren was probably one of the smaller ones. The Buddhist temple in Portland there was very large, but we had a very large building. I mean we had an immense building in comparison. And so after the war, we lived, we, we went back there in 1945 and stayed until 1951. And going pretty much far in advance, but because we had a large building, the Japanese community used it for Nisei dances. We' ; d move all the benches out of the way and clear the floor on Saturday nights and we' ; d have dances. We would also, after the war, when the Japanese films became available, we showed movies there. And we also had some Japanese celebrities come and put on performances. When we, in fact, when the building was built, it' ; s unusual, but I don' ; t know if you know Kabuki at all, but you know how they come off from the sides of the stage, from up and there' ; s a pathway, well there' ; s a hole in the floor that had a thing so people could come out from the basement and you know we cleared the alter back and put up the stage and so the Kabuki people could come off the stage. And it was, you know it was almost like a theater. It was, you know, it was a social center for the Japanese American community really. Anna Takada: Mhmm. I' ; m gonna, I' ; m going to put a pin in this. I' ; m excited to hear more about what was going on, but before we get into that, ' ; cause we' ; ll get into detail, because I want to hear more about it-- Yoko Morita: After the war, right? Anna Takada: Yeah. Right. But, so going, going back to Portland, it sounds like your, your family was, you know, pretty well off-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: You know, supported by the temple. And you know, your father had the services there. Can you describe, I guess, what happened at the, the start of the war and when the war broke out? Yoko Morita: Yes, I could say that my father, because you know, most of the leaders of the community were picked up and he was picked up also, but I, he doesn' ; t know why and-- I can' ; t really explain, but he said that they took him up to the third floor of the city jail and showed them the cell that they were going to put him in. And then they told him, turned him around and said, " ; Go home." ; And the thing we assume is that he had only been in Portland a year or so, that he was not really developed to a, a community leader. I mean you know maybe he led his temple, but he was not a community leader. So, that' ; s the reason why. He had been telling us that he told them that I was in school and he had to come pick me up, otherwise I wouldn' ; t get, be able to get home. And so they said, " ; Okay, you can go home," ; but that doesn' ; t sound very reasonable with the FBI, you know, but that' ; s what he said. And of course his English was not that good, so I don' ; t know what he heard or what he understood, but he did come home and he was not kept separate from us when we all went to camp. Anna Takada: Okay. Is that something that you remember or just kind of what you heard? Yoko Morita: That' ; s what he told us. Right. And actually people ask us about, you know what was your travel like in, in going to assembly center where we were before we went to camp. I don' ; t remember anything except standing in line, getting all those crazy shots, the inoculations, but that' ; s about it-- and standing in line for food. But other than that, I don' ; t remember very much at all about assembly center except what I' ; ve heard. Anna Takada: So, does that mean that you, you probably wouldn' ; t have any memories of Pearl Harbor and-- Yoko Morita: Nothing, nothing. I don' ; t think I even heard about it until after you know, we were in school or after we came out. Because my parents, of course, I don' ; t know whether it was because they were new to the United States. I mean, they were only in the U.S. for about a year and a half before the war began, and so, and they never talked about it, so... I, I don' ; t think I ever really knew about it until after I got to school and I, you know we learned about a lot of stuff, which apparently, I think, come to think of it now is not until after I got out of camp. I mean, when I came out of camp, I was only in fifth grade, so yeah. In the first four years, in those days you only learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, so, not a lot of history. Anna Takada: Mhmm. At this time, I mean you were, you were very young and I, I know it' ; s, you know you probably don' ; t have that many memories of it, but at that time, do you think you were, you were socializing with other kids or, from school? Yoko Morita: Oh yeah, we had friends and we had school, and in camp it was, really had a, almost a social, I mean a regular community. And I, I know I took koto lessons, I took Japanese odori buyo lessons, and I also took what they call, I guess it' ; s like, it' ; s a children' ; s dance. You know you sort of dance to children' ; s stories and we did that. And, and then I did a little bit of calligraphy, but that' ; s about it. You know, but I did do all those things in, in camp. So, and then my mother was an ikebana sensei and she started teaching ikebana in camp also. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And before camp, the young people or kids your age, were they mostly Japanese or Japanese American? Yoko Morita: No, because of, our temple was located on the other side of the river from the Japanese community. In Portland they were all, most of them were on the southwest side of Portland across the river. And we were in Northeast. And I don' ; t know why they ended up being in Northeast, but that' ; s where it was until after the war. And basically, maybe because the land was cheaper out there, I don' ; t know. But as far as I remember, and I know that this, it turned out, it ended up being mostly a Black neighborhood by the time after the war. You know so it was not the best neighborhood. Anna Takada: So, you mentioned that you don' ; t really have any memories of evacuation or anything besides the inoculations. Can you tell me what you do remember of that process, or... Yoko Morita: Not of, of moving in at all. I don' ; t even remember that I looked in and that' ; s all there was. There was one big room, which everyone had and that we all-- there was no privacy, everybody, you know everybody slept in the same room and ate in the same room and that kind of stuff. But when you' ; re six or seven years old, it doesn' ; t bother you, you know? And my dad was able to continue with his work and, and he did have service, you know church services, temple services and things like that. So, actually, I, I just remember having fun and having my own friends, which I didn' ; t have when we were living in Portland. Most of the friends that we did have would be from children of the members who only came on Sundays or on the weekend or for some meeting or something like that, but basically not. And then the members who in, in Portland, their children were all about 10 or 12 years older than us because my father was rather young and the members were... You know, most of the Niseis that I remember are from Portland are all gone. There isn' ; t anybody left. Anna Takada: And so besides those children of, of the temple, you also had your siblings. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: And let' ; s see- Yoko Morita: And of course, before the war we didn' ; t speak too much English, you know, so you couldn' ; t mix with the neighborhood children either. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And which assembly center were you sent to? Yoko Morita: We were in Portland Assembly Center, and it' ; s-- I forget, but it was their racetrack. I forget what the name of it is. Anna Takada: I' ; m blanking at the, on the Portland' ; s one. Yoko Morita: Right. I can' ; t remember what, the name of it is at all. People have asked me. I should really look it up. Anna Takada: And, do you have any sense of how long you were at the assembly center before going into camp? Yoko Morita: All I know is what I' ; ve heard about six months before everybody was sent out. Anna Takada: And, and then from there, do you know how you traveled? Yoko Morita: On the train. Anna Takada: On the train? Yoko Morita: Again, I, the only stories I' ; ve heard. Right. Anna Takada: I mean it' ; s, it' ; s still, you know It' ; s still helpful to know what the, even the family kind of, lore stories. Yoko Morita: Right. Well, we, we traveled together going in, my dad and, and there were four of us kids and my mom. We traveled together. And, and from the stories I hear about the blinds have to be down and things like that, but I don' ; t e-- I don' ; t even remember the train ride period. And it' ; s a pretty long train ride from Portland to southern Idaho you know? Probably at least overnight. Anna Takada: And so where, would it, would it have been in camp that some of your earliest memories are, or... Yoko Morita: Well, I have some friends from there that I' ; ve kept in contact with, I' ; ve lost in the last few years, but I' ; ve kept in contact. I remember going to school. My memories of, of being, you know it was just-- The buildings were just built, there were no sidewalks, no nothing, so when it rained, it was a huge mud puddle. And the one story that I remember is going to school the first day on a very rainy day, we lost our shoes and we couldn' ; t find them in the mud. So then, we had to go home and have my dad go follow us back and look for our shoes. That happened a couple of times, but you know, those are silly stories, but things that you remember as a kid. And then, we did you know, in, in the camps, we had Saturday movies for the kids, cowboy stories, cartoons, you know the, the cartoons that you see when you' ; re little. And every Saturday we used to go to those. And I think that was probably the first time I was introduced to American movies. You know we didn' ; t go to anything like that and I don' ; t think we could have afforded to if we had at the time. Anna Takada: Where were they screening those? Yoko Morita: In what they call the rec hall. Every, every block had the 12 barracks for living. And then we had a mess hall where we all ate. And then we had a laundry and, and shower room. It was, you know an open shower room in every block. And then one building that was called a rec room. And they were used for different things. Some were, one was used near us was used as a store that you could buy your necessary things. They brought in stuff, you know, some underwear kind of stuff, and the proper stuff that you needed. And then in other places, they were used as a theater and some places were used as a dance floor. I think, well the high school kids they had used one of... Because we had a high school there too. And then they probabl-- I think we probably used one of the rec rooms for our temple meetings or you know, for any kind of group meetings. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me about any of the, the other activities that you remember doing besides cartoons? There were temple meetings you mentioned. Yoko Morita: Yes. Well, I did take o-koto lessons and then we, and I took dance, Japanese dance lessons and I took the children' ; s, I forget what it' ; s called, but it' ; s a certain kind of dance and calligraphy a little bit. But other, other than that, I remember my dad played men' ; s baseball. They had a, a league and they played, and one of the reasons I know that is because he broke a finger and he always had one crooked finger when he was playing baseball. But we were all too young to be in anything organized. And I understand that there were Boy Scout groups and Cub Scouts, but my brothers were too young to do that. And there was a pond near our bloc-- barrack, where it would freeze, and we would go ice skating in the winter and we were able to get ice skates from order from Sears and things like that. So we, those things we were able to get. And I remember going ice skating and swimming in this muddy pond. So... Anna Takada: Mhmm. And was your mom, was she working at all? Yoko Morita: Yes, she worked in, in the mess hall, I guess you would say as a waiter or a server or something. Basically though you weren' ; t served because we went you know along a, like a, a deli where you just asked for what you wanted, and so-- Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And a question I should have asked earlier, was she working when, either in Vancouver or-- Yoko Morita: No, she was at home. She was a stay-at-home mom. Anna Takada: Right. And she had, was, this was the start of having you and your siblings. And you said your father had services in the rec room or the rec hall? Yoko Morita: I think. Yeah, rec hall. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And do you have any sense of how, how many people of that temple were in Minidoka or attending? Yoko Morita: Probably quite, not the numbers, but I would say a, a fairly large number. Only that, because there were, the Seattle people were in there and the Portland people were in there. And so, and the Seattle minist-- priest did not come to camp. He went back home or was on his way home. So the Seattle priest was that, so my dad, you know, we lived in block 29 in camp. In Minidoka there was from one to 44, so we were kind of sort of in the middle. And I think from both ends, the Seattle people were at the one end and the Portland people, we were mixed sometimes, but mostly divided that way. And so I' ; m, if I, I don' ; t remember exactly, but I' ; m sure the temple might have been in, in, in our services were held in our block or near it. Anna Takada: And I imagine that there was probably a mix of children in camp who were either speaking mostly Japanese or mostly English or maybe a mix. Would you happen to remember your own communication with... Yoko Morita: My friends? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: With my friends, it would' ; ve been all English by that time because I was in second grade and I was a regular school, you know, public school student Yeah. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. So you had developed your English? Yoko Morita: Yes, my English, yes. Anna Takada: Are there any other, any other memories or anything you would like to share about what you can recall of... Yoko Morita: Of camp life? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Or even just stories from your family? Yoko Morita: Well see now, after we went to camp, we were near the city of Twin Falls, Idaho. And I don' ; t know how my dad found out, but there was a family, there were several families living in Idaho in Twin Falls, and they were Nichiren, and so he asked permission to go out to them to service them with their religious life. And so about once every two months or so, he was allowed to go to Twin Falls to service these people that, that they would put-- And the family was allowed to go with him, so we would be able to go with him. And because there were stores there, we would take a shopping list from all our members and, and buy stuff and bring them back for them, which is, so from what I understand, Minidoka was pretty much a very liberal camp. You, you were not considered as bad as, I think Tule Lake was considered a troublemaker camp and that kind of stuff. But I think Minidoka wasn' ; t, so we traveled out to there several times a year to service the members there and, and had a good time. Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Do you remember that? Yoko Morita: Yes, yes. Anna Takada: Remember going out? Yoko Morita: Yes. Yeah. Going out. And I remember going into, of course in those days they were called 10 cent stores, well, dime stores, the Woolworth and Kresge' ; s, and taking a list and buying this color thread and that color thread and this ribbon and this much yarn and that kind of stuff. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And so were you going to an actual temple that was there for the community outside of Minidoka? Yoko Morita: No, we just met in someone' ; s home. Anna Takada: Oh, mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And do you know how many people were kind of there? ' ; Cause the, so I' ; m- Yoko Morita: There were just two or three families, so probably 10 people if that many, you know, even if just the older Issei generation came, it would be you know, eight or nine at the most I' ; m sure. Anna Takada: And so I' ; m assuming that these are Japanese-- Yoko Morita: Americans. Yeah, yeah. Anna Takada: --that were, you know they weren' ; t on the, the, in the exclusion zones, so they didn' ; t have to go to camp. Yoko Morita: Right. They were with, outside of the 200 miles, so they didn' ; t have to go to camp. Anna Takada: Hm. Yeah, that' ; s, that would be really interesting to you know, hear about what that dynamic was like. Yoko Morita: Yeah, right, right. And I went to the Minidoka Pilgrimage this year for the first time, and I, we went through Twin Falls and there was a historic, well, I wasn' ; t-- we didn' ; t have the time to go through town slowly to find out where exactly they were or even to ask questions, but I, I thought if I had really had the time, I would' ; ve liked to run around and see if there are any there still from there or you know their children are still there or not, but you know, it' ; s 70 years, so who knows. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Right. And, and you' ; re mentioning it' ; s only a couple families. Yoko Morita: Right, right. Anna Takada: So... Oh, one other question I wanted to ask was if your father had any work in camp as well? Yoko Morita: No, he didn' ; t do any work. He would just stayed at, stayed with his temple people and stuff. My mother worked. Anna Takada: And I' ; m not sure how this might have worked outside of camp too, but it sounds like he was you know, being housed by the temple. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: So was that kind of where his living was coming from? Yoko Morita: Yes. Oh, he did get a salary from the, from the temple itself, so that' ; s what we lived on. And of course in Portland, most of our, not most. Many of our members were farmers. And so we got a lot of vegetables and that kind of stuff. You know, we would have potatoes coming out of our ears and apples, and-- Anna Takada: Well fed. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Did that salary, if you would happen to know, did, did that continue while he was in camp? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t think so, because I don' ; t know that, that the, the people who are our members could have been, I don' ; t think we were that organized that they could afford, you know. There was no membership fee, I, I doubt very, very much. I very much doubt it very much. But I do remember that after the war, when we came back to Portland, his salary was $50 a month, with, to be able to feed six of us. And my sister was born, so then, then there were seven of us, so $50, but rent, was rent free, you know. And I don' ; t know if you know the Japan-- the Buddhist tradition, but people donate to the temple at the end of the year for you know, and mostly it came in forms of rice and shoyu and miso. And so, and basically it was for use for the temple during the year for their many festivals and meetings and stuff, the rice and, and that, you know and then the shoyu and so we were allowed to use that. So as far as the, the staples of Japanese food we had, you know then we had to buy our, our bread and our meat and, and eggs and things, but then we got the vegetables from our farmers, so it was $50 and that was a very little bit of money. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: Yeah. Anna Takada: So while we' ; re, we' ; re talking about it, can you tell me about where your family, basically what happened after the camp and... Yoko Morita: Okay. We went back to Portland and the house was no longer there. So we lived in the basement of the temple. Anna Takada: Okay. Which was next door to your former house? Yoko Morita: Yes. We lived in the basement. We did our, our cooking and stuff in the, in the kitchen that was made there, put there to prepare you know for the large festiv-- church affairs and things. And then my sister and I slept in the attic. There was an attic where my dad had his office and my sister and I slept up there and my brothers and my parents lived, slept in the basement. And so, you know. But Portland doesn' ; t get real cold like Chicago, but it does get cold and you can' ; t heat the whole building up for just the five of us, so we lived a very cold life. We had a gas burner in, in the living room downstairs and upstairs we didn' ; t have anything. So my sister and I really froze. I mean, we get up some mornings, not, well, maybe once or twice in the five years we lived there after the war that our, our ink stands, the ink in our ink stands would be frozen, you know so it got cold at night. And my dad had a, a heater, an electric heater in his office to keep warm, but we didn' ; t have one in our bedroom. So we took a very, very warm bath, hot bath, and warmed our bodies up and went in. Anna Takada: Wow. And was this you and Yoshiko who-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And then your other siblings. Yoko Morita: They slept in the basement where basically we kept warm with a gas burner, so. Anna Takada: Do you know what year it was that your family left camp? Yoko Morita: The family left camp in August of 1945. We were probably near towards the end because they were beginning... But my dad stayed back to make sure that all of our members from our temple got out all right and then he came back. He wanted us out in August because he wanted us to start the school year. So we started out. And we started out, and then we had an accident on the way to the, to Twin Falls to catch our train. And so then we had to go back for a couple of weeks before we could go back out. But there was a lady, one of our, the members went with us and she had broken a couple of, none of us were hurt seriously, but she had broken a couple of ribs, so she had to end up waiting a couple of months before she could get out and so... Anna Takada: Oh wow. Yoko Morita: Yeah. But we did, and then when we got back to Portland, we didn' ; t have any place to stay. So in Portland, there were several Japanese families that owned hotels, so they let us stay in one of those rooms until my dad came and the temple was ready for us to go live in. Anna Takada: Hmm. Let' ; s see. I' ; m going to... I' ; m sorry to interrupt this. I' ; m just going to check on something outside. Yoko Morita: Sure. Anna Takada: Just so that we can keep our, our sound. But I' ; ll be right back. We can come right back to it. Yoko Morita: Sure. Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry about that. Yoko Morita: No problem. Anna Takada: All right. I' ; m so sorry about that. Yoko Morita: That' ; s all right. Anna Takada: Okay. All right. So to pick right back up. So the, the accident on your way to, and I' ; m sorry, it' ; s Twin Falls? Yoko Morita: Twin Falls. Anna Takada: Twin Falls. This was in a car? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And who was, who was all in the car? How many? Yoko Morita: My mother, the four of us kids and a, a member whose name was Mrs. Sasaki and she was a member, was going to help my mom with the four of us kids in the train. Anna Takada: So you all were going to go back to Portland together? Yoko Morita: Together. Anna Takada: And so after that you went back to camp? Is that what you said? Yoko Morita: Yes, we did go back to camp until they were, you know we were able to be, we, most of us, we were all kids. So we were just bruised. And I don' ; t remember how long we stayed back, but we did have to go back out again and had to be back in, we wanted to be back in Portland by September 1st when school started. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And I' ; m, I' ; m sorry, did you, did you make it for the September 1st start? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And was it the same group, your, your family and family friend who went? Yoko Morita: She didn' ; t because she was in the hospital with the broken ribs. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: She came back, I think probably, I don' ; t know how much later, but she did come back along. Maybe she might have come back with my dad. I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And do you know how long your father stayed back before joining you? Yoko Morita: I think probably ' ; till sometime in mid-November. Anna Takada: Oh, okay. Yoko Morita: Yeah, when the camp was almost completely empty when they said, " ; You got to get out." ; I think it' ; s November or October that he came home. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. So you mentioned kind of the living situation immediately after camp and, and staying in the temple. Can you tell me more about kind of what that was like going back to Portland for you and your family? Yoko Morita: Going back to Portland again, I was 10 and we were busy with school, so I don' ; t remember if I had any real reaction as to whether I enjoyed it or whether I' ; m bitter about it. We did live in the basement and it was, you know, but we had a lot of room in the basement because it was a big temple. We could play and ride our bikes in the basement on a rainy day. It was fun, you know as we grew up. And we, we had problems because we were constantly breaking stuff and I think that the church board members weren' ; t very happy, but we did, we did. And it was inconvenient in that there was no heating and the only way you could heat hot water was to turn, burn the, turn the furnace on, which was wood burning, so we had to burn in order to take a bath. And so that was kind of inconvenient. We had to, you know, " ; Okay, we got to start the furnace up," ; at least to warm water up because there was no water, separate water heater. And so we did that. And so we did get some warmth you know when we, but you didn' ; t burn it very long, so that was it. There was a lot of chores connected with living in the temple because of course people came back from camp and didn' ; t have the money. So it was a wood burning furnace to heat the, the temple itself, the chapel part of the temple. And, and so that had to be cut and then it had to be moved indoors or stacked up and couldn' ; t pay anybody to do it, so us kids ended up doing it. There were a lot of things, we didn' ; t have a janitor, so us kids ended up doing the janitorial work, you know, cleaning all the bath, the public bathrooms. And, and we had, there was no private bathrooms for us in the living quarter, so we used the public bathrooms as, as our own. And then when, after a big service or a big function or something, and we had 500 people in the temple using toilets and clean those out. And it was really quite a, you know it was... And we had the, we had to move, we were the ones who moved the benches to the side so they could have their dances and then we had to move them back on Sunday morning or after they go home to move them back so it could be used for the temple again. And so basically the four Arakawa kids were the janitors for four or five years. Anna Takada: Wow. Yeah. Yoko Morita: It' ; s, because they couldn' ; t, they didn' ; t have the money to you know pay for a janitor and the members were all too busy to do that kind of stuff, so... Anna Takada: And did services start back pretty much immediately when you... Yoko Morita: Well, once we got back, the services began immediately and it was a, you know, fairly large amount of people and we did have a Sunday school on Sunday mornings and we had, we did start some Nihon-gakkou again on Saturdays, so things were going along pretty well. Anna Takada: And if your father wasn' ; t there, was someone else leading the services? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t remember that he ever left very often for anything. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Well, when your family came without him, when he was still in camp? Yoko Morita: Well, I don' ; t think we had, had any kind of services, because the, the temple itself was not open. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: Yeah. It wasn' ; t open until, I think, until he came back. Anna Takada: I see. Yoko Morita: And then during the war, the basement was filled with members who wanted stuff stored, their personal belongings that they couldn' ; t take with them, stuff, but a lot of it was missing too when we came back. They were broken into it and a lot of it was missing. Anna Takada: Would you happen to know if your family had any belongings there as well? Yoko Morita: Yeah, we had stuff there. We had, when I was born, my grandfather in Japan, do you know what the Hinamatsuri dolls are? Anna Takada: Yes. Yoko Morita: Yes. Well he sent my, me a whole set and pieces of it were missing, not all of it, just pieces of it. And so I miss those every year when I put the, you know, I still have them, they' ; re like, what now? 83 years old because I got them when I was born but, and I, every time I put them up I think, " ; Oh, that piece is missing," ; and I know they' ; re missing ' ; cause I, I missed them right from the beginning. Why they didn' ; t take the whole set, you know? Anna Takada: And so, I, I' ; m sorry that for that little interruption-- Yoko Morita: That' ; s all right. Anna Takada: ...but right before that you were mentioning some of the living arrangements for people getting out of camp. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And, would you mind just going back to that and explaining you know, where people were going or, or how they were able to find housing? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t know how the others found housing, but the people, there were several, one, two, maybe about five families that owned hotels in downtown Portland, which is more or less sort of Japanese town. And I don' ; t know whether all the people who, who didn' ; t have places to go back to stayed there until they found something or not. We were probably the last, and of course I wasn' ; t involved with a lot of that stuff. Maybe if I was older, I might have been, but I don' ; t know how or where they lived until they found a place to live. But most of them ended up in southwest Portland. Portland was divided in quadrangles and Japanese... Well, before the war, Northwest Washington was Japan, Japantown. And by the, by after the war, I believe the Chinese took over. And so it' ; s mostly then everybody moved to the southwest. But the church was located in Northeast across the river. And I don' ; t, I don' ; t even know if we had a, even a member of one family who lived there on that, even near the temple. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And I' ; m, I' ; m sorry if I missed this, but your family, were you staying like immediately after camp, were you staying in one of these hotels? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And so it was your... So by this time it would' ; ve still just been you and your three siblings and your mother. Yoko Morita: Right. And my mom. And she sort of, I guess you would say earned our stay there by helping them you know, make the beds and cleaning the rooms and things like that for a couple of months. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So that was kind of making the living-- Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: ...working there. Yoko Morita: Working there. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Do you remember what that, that room was like or how long you were staying there? Yoko Morita: Well, we only stayed till my father came, so probably just a few months, but we, we started out and it' ; s in southwest Portland. So we started school in the Southwest District School. I mean you know the schools even today are according to school districts. So we started there, so we continued going there. That meant for us, we had to take a bus from across town to get to school every morning and at night. And my sister and I graduated from that particular school, but the boys, the school decided had to go to the school in their neighborhood. So they went to a school in our neighborhood, back in our neighborhood. Anna Takada: At this time, do you remember what grade you were in? Was it fifth grade? Yoko Morita: I went back in fifth grade and finished fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth. Anna Takada: Okay. Graduating the Southwest District School? Yoko Morita: Yeah, school. Anna Takada: Do you remember the name of the school? Yoko Morita: Yes. Shattuck. Anna Takada: Shattuck? How do you spell that? Yoko Morita: S-H-A-T-T-U-C-K. And, and friends that I had made in camp were also in that school. Most of the Japanese had gone there so... And they all went on to Lincoln High School, which was in the Southwest. But I ended up going to Washington High School on the other side of the river, which is closer to our house. It was really my district high school. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like for you kind of reentering a public school after your experience in camp? Yoko Morita: Well actually school in camp, except that they were all just Japanese ' ; cause we were, it was more like a public school. I didn' ; t think it made too much difference. We had, I had only Caucasian teachers the three years I was there, so I didn' ; t, there were sev-- there were some niseis who were certified to be teachers who worked, but I don' ; t think there were that many ' ; cause I don' ; t rememb--, I remember my teachers from camp. In fact, I kept in contact with my second grade teacher ' ; till she died in 1960 or something like that. We corresponded very periodically, but we did. Anna Takada: What was her name? Yoko Morita: Mrs. Nicholson. Anna Takada: Do you remember the names of your other teachers? Yoko Morita: And my fourth grade teacher was Ms. Schmidt. Those are the only two I remember. And Ms. Schmidt I also kept in touch with until she died about 1970, maybe six-- in the late sixties. But when I got married in ' ; 58, I sent her an invitation to my, or at least an announcement, and she wrote back, she says, " ; I' ; m happy that you' ; re getting married, but I' ; m sorry that you' ; re not continuing teaching." ; Well, I intended to continue teaching while I was working, but she never got married and she gave her life to education. So I think she expected me to not get married either. Most of the teachers were Quakers. Most of the Caucasian people who did anything with the camps were Quakers. Anna Takada: And at Shattuck? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: How, like... Can you just tell me a little bit more about that school like what class sizes or... Yoko Morita: Class sizes were probably about you know 25, 20, 30. And that neighborhood was mostly Jewish. So, and we had, I remember being pretty much integrated into the group. We didn' ; t have any problems. And I don' ; t remember any... You know a lot of people went back, and there was still a lot of discrimination against the Japanese. I don' ; t feel-- I didn' ; t feel any myself, and the teachers there were welcoming. And I remember I kept in contact with some of my teachers there too. I like to keep in contact with friends. In fact, I still have friends in Portland from grade school that I, when I travel, we get together for lun-- Anna Takada: Wow. Yoko Morita: Yeah. So I like to keep in contact with my old friends. And so I had a good experience and I was pretty much of an organizer in that school. Ended up being you know, pretty active in school, school activities. Ended up being the, the top of the safety-- You know in those days, we had safety patrol kids who directed the kids across streets right from school and stuff, and I was organizing them. And I did a lot of that kind of stuff. So, it was a good school experience for me. I liked it very much. Anna Takada: What were some of the other activities you were involved in? Yoko Morita: Well, we had sort of a local base-- basketball thingy. But other than that, not really. Just you know, safety patrol and maybe student government type stuff. I was not, we had plays and things like that, but I was not in that sort of field of activities. Anna Takada: And so when you first got back to Portland in, close to, September ' ; 45, your father was out. And you were staying at the hotel, but when you came, you moved into the, the temple. Yoko Morita: When he came, yes. Anna Takada: And, and you guys were the, the groundskeepers? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Of the temple. And so was it through, through this time to... This entire time, are you going to Shattuck? Yoko Morita: Yes. Then the last, then the last two years, I was at Washington High School. I spent, did my freshman and sophomore year there. Anna Takada: Okay. And how about that as a high school? Was it also-- Yoko Morita: It' ; s pretty much integrated. Although most of the Japanese kids went to Lincoln because the, their homes are, most of them are over there. And, then, and by then, a lot of them had scattered all over. So there were several from, going to other different school-- high school. But Lincoln was primarily the school that most of the Japanese American kids went to, I think. I' ; m not sure. At Roosevelt, there were my family and probably two others that were Japanese American, and the rest of them were Caucasian, you know, just out of diversity. Anna Takada: And would you happen to, to remember any conversations about camp, or were people curious you know, why? Yoko Morita: Not in Portland? They knew. I think they knew because we left from there. But when we moved to Chicago, and I was sitting with my friends at lunch and we were talking about camp. And they said, " ; You went to girls camp for three years?" ; And I said, " ; No, no, no, no. That' ; s a little different." ; But most of them thought I had gone to a Girl Scout camp for three and a half years. Anna Takada: So can you explain how your family, so you, you' ; ve completed your sophomore year of high school, and...? Yoko Morita: Okay. Then my dad traveled the United States where many Japanese Americans had relocated after camp to find out where many of them had locate-- relocated. I think he spent six weeks on the train going from one city to another. And we came home in early August and said, " ; There' ; s a big congregation in Chicago. So that' ; s where we' ; re going." ; So in two weeks, we were in Chicago. I mean, we picked up and left immediately almost, again, so that we could go back to school in September. Anna Takada: I see. Do you remember your reactions to that news? Yoko Morita: Yes. I didn' ; t want to leave, of course. You know, I had friends, and I had two years, more than half, oh half of my high school life left. So I didn' ; t want to. But when you decide to leave, you decide to leave. And that' ; s it. Anna Takada: Do you have any idea what happened to the, the temple? Yoko Morita: Well, they, you know we moved within two weeks of the time. But they, I mean he, my dad was replaced with another minister who, at the time, was in Sacramento, and he moved his family up to Portland. And there was you know the exchange ceremony and all that that goes on when you have a change of leadership. And, and we left. Anna Takada: One thing that I did just want to touch on before getting into life in Chicago, was you mentioned the, the activities at the temple that took place after the war. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: That was at that temple in Portland, correct? Yoko Morita: Yes, yes. Anna Takada: So before we, we talk about Chicago, can you tell me a little bit more about, about those activities and kind of what the, the community was like post-camp? Yoko Morita: Right. Well, the, the Nichiren Buddhist Temple in Portland was a large building. And so there were a lot of community activities, particularly social activities. The Niseis held their dances there, and I don' ; t remember how often, maybe once every month or once every other month, but they would have a dance. And they, and, and we would have to clear all the benches to the side so that they could, and, and all the carpeting and everything had to be moved and things. And they, I think the Niseis had a good time you know? It was the entire Japanese community that came, not just our members. So it was for the Portland Japanese American community. And so it was good. And then when movies started coming from Japan, we would show movies on Saturday night, Japanese movies. And of course, that was for the Isseis, and not particularly for the Nisei community. And of course, at that time, still there were a lot of Isseis left. So it was a, a very big crowd, you know? And my brother and my sisters and I would help sell sodas and that kind of stuff during the movie, or before and after the movie. And we ended up moving the benches and we' ; d clean up, and, and move the benches back, and for the service on Sunday morning. And then after-- For a while, we had a regular group of people coming from Japan, celebrities, movie stars, actors, singers, dance troupes. And we, the, the altar in Portland was huge, and we just moved all of the religious stuff back and pulled the curtain across. And you could really have a, a nice play type stuff, you know? I mean you could put on a play very easily. And, and then as I mentioned before, you could almost put on a kabuki if you wanted to because of they had that sidewalk coming up. And it was things that the Japanese American community... I mean there was no Japanese TV like today, where you could get TV Japan or anything. So it was something for the Isseis to look forward to. And it was fun. A lot of them are well-known Japanese people, actors and actresses, who came. I don' ; t know if this generation of people would remember, but Misora Hibari was one who came, and she' ; s a singer, a very, very popular singer. And she was 13 when she came, and she was a national star until she died in, and I think she died really young. She died when she was 51 or 52. But she was one. And the man, and I don' ; t know if a lot of people who would be watching this would know, but there were, was a samurai who played the Blind Samurai. There' ; s a whole series of movies that he made. He was a blind samurai, and he defended the poor and the defenseless. And he came, couple of times, and was part of the program. So we met a few very interesting people. Anna Takada: What was his name? Yoko Morita: I can' ; t remember. I wish I could remember. Anna Takada: And was this, some of these arrangements, was this through the temple? Or how are you kind of getting-- Yoko Morita: I don' ; t think, no, I, I think it was a, maybe the Japanese, Japanese Chamber of Commerce or some Japanese group that brought it. But we were the only place that could house them. You know they, they, they dress, we had room for them to change their dressing and everything in the basement, and then come up. So it was, and I, you know I have never been in any of the other churches or temples in Portland, but we held, we' ; re the only ones who held that stuff. So I' ; m assuming this. Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember, by name, any of other organizations or, or groups that would' ; ve been coming together and helping to organize these types of-- Yoko Morita: Not that I know of, no. I don' ; t know. All I know is they came, and we were the temple, you know, the building that had the space and could house them. But that' ; s about it. Anna Takada: Okay. One other question I had before getting into Chicago is, of course, you were very young when the war started, and you know, even after camp. But there are certain... So obviously the people probably most impacted by the camp are, are the adults, you know the parents. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: People trying to make a living or go to school or-- Yoko Morita: The college aged Niseis. Anna Takada: Right. But I' ; m curious to know how certain information was kind of passed down to you. So like for example, your father was picked up by the FBI. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: And then released. And I' ; m just wondering like, if you would happen to remem-remember if there was a certain time that you, your family was talking about this, or that this information was shared with you? Because of course you were a child, so I don' ; t know how much-- Yoko Morita: Yes, I think most of it was after we came to Chicago, and we talked about it. Because like I said before, when we first moved to Chicago and my friends, when we talked about my being in camp for three and a half years, things started, you know people started talking about it. And so until then, I don' ; t think we talked about it at all. I don' ; t even remember that my dad had been you know, pulled away at, at the beginning of the war. So we... And then, of course, so when we came to Chicago, and he established the temple, we had members, not only from Portland but people from California, and people who had just, you know from all over who moved to Chicago. And there were several families that were Peruvians that came, were sent up from Peru because of the war. And they, too, talked. They started talking about their experiences. So everybody started talking about their experiences. And that' ; s, I think that' ; s when I really first heard about it. Anna Takada: And at this time, would you say you were teenage age? Yoko Morita: Yeah, I was 16, 15, 16? Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: Because I was a junior in high school. Anna Takada: Okay. In that case, so your, you moved to Chicago. Your father was interested in starting-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: ...the Nichiren Temple here. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: So can you, can you sort of explain what that move was like? Yoko Morita: Oh yeah. My dad, this was the first assignment that was not an assignment. He chose to move here. And so we came here in, in August of 1951, and we stayed at a member' ; s home for a week. There were seven of us by then. You know, and to have more than seven people in the house for more than a week, it' ; s a little bit... So we found an apartment on Clark Street. I don' ; t, you' ; re probably too young to remember, but there used to be a, a Japanese grocery store on Clark Street called York. We lived upstairs from them. And we had one bedroom and a living room, and a, an ice box, not a refrigerator. We had to buy ice every week to keep our food cold. We had one bedroom. And we, so the five of us slept, I was a teenager, I was 15, my sister was sixt-- 13... 14. My brother was 12, and then 10. And my youngest sister was 18 months. She was really late, 18 months. But the four of us slept in this one bedroom with two beds together so that all four of us slept together. It was just really a bedroom with all beds. That' ; s it. And we lived there for about six months until we found a building that we bought for the temple. And this apartment we shared, we shared the bath and the toilet with... The rest of the building was just boarders. So they were all single men, and us as a family. And that' ; s where we lived for six months. Anna Takada: Oh, the, you' ; re still talking about the one on Clark Street. Yoko Morita: Right. And then we bought the building on 1620 North LaSalle. Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry. I' ; m so bad with the, the addresses in, in Chicago still. Yoko Morita: That' ; s all right. Anna Takada: But was that still kind of like LaSalle, Clark area? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: 1620? Yoko Morita: Do you know where the Moody Bible Church is? Across the street from there. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: North and LaSalle. Anna Takada: Okay. Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago? Yoko Morita: It was a dirty town. It was a coal-burning town, and everything was black. Just, just really a very dirty town. Because Portland was a very clean town. And the first winter we came was a bad winter for us. Well, snow was always here. You know, in Portland, you didn' ; t have snow. Once, that last year we were in Portland, it snowed about a quarter of an inch. And school closed because it' ; s a very hilly town, and you know in the mountains. And so school closed. And we came here to Chicago. And the first winter, we had three feet of snow, and the schools didn' ; t close at all. Not even the delayed opening. But immediately, the snow turned black. And I remember my dad writing to his family in Portland saying-- I mean in Japan, saying, " ; Guess what? Chicago has black snow, not white snow." ; Because it stays around so long you know with the cars and everything splashing up. It does really turn black towards the end. But then it, and as it fell, you could see the soot falling on the snow too. So it was really a very dirty town, as far I were concerned. But we bought the house at 1620 LaSalle, and my brothers were still in grade school. So they were able to walk to the grade school. And then my sister and I went to high school, and we could walk if we got up early enough to walk. But we usually ended up taking public transportation. Anna Takada: Would that have been Waller High school? And how about your brothers? Yoko Morita: They went to LaSalle Elementary School, and my youngest sister did too. Noriko. Then we all graduated from Waller, all five of us. Anna Takada: Wow. Let' ; s see. I' ; m wondering if you could describe for me a little bit more about what that area was like. So I, six months is, it' ; s a fair amount of time to, to live in any one place. So this Clark Street apartment above York grocery store, can you kind of, paint a picture for, for what that area was like at that time? Yoko Morita: It was really, kind of, I don' ; t know, not the very best neighborhood, you know? There were a lot of, I guess today you might call them, homeless people. Or people who wander around. You were not too easy to go out at night, that kind of stuff. But there were, you know there were bad Japanese group. And we did a lot of... In high school, there was a, a I guess, it' ; s called, you call it, a delicatessen, or place where teenagers gathered called Ting-a-ling that we used to go for ice cream and stuff after different things. And then there was a community center there called the Olivet Institute, where the Japanese Americans had a lot of their dances and activities. Anna Takada: So, were there any other businesses or, or buildings in that area that stick out to you if, if you' ; re reminiscing of...? Yoko Morita: Well, the Chicago Midwest Buddhist Temple was just a few, few blocks away from us. Anna Takada: On LaSalle? Yoko Morita: Not on LaSalle, they' ; re on North Park Street Avenue, I think. More, well you know, LaSalle is a fairly major thoroughfare. They' ; re more into the neighborhood. Anna Takada: I see. Yoko Morita: Yeah. And I think they' ; re still there. Anna Takada: And York was a, a Japanese-owned grocery store. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Can you, can you tell me more about York Grocery Store? Your memories of it? Yoko Morita: Yes. Well, it was a small grocery store. You know it just had Japanese foods, whatever you could get at Japanese. But she also eventually moved up to north of Belmont after, do you know the Sandberg buildings that are built down there on LaSalle Street? The high rises between Clark and LaSalle, between North Avenue and Division? You know? Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: Okay, well, when they built that, they tore the all those little buildings down. And she moved up to, and she was a member of our temple, her family was. And so you know we did all our, of course, all our Japanese grocery shopping there. Anna Takada: What were some of the, the Japanese items that you could get there? Yoko Morita: Well, almost everything. You know the, the rice and the tofu and, and the canned goods. And some of the vegetables, if they could get the vegetables. Just about everything Japanese. Anna Takada: And let' ; s see, were there a lot of Japanese Americans living in that area when you were there? Yoko Morita: Not a lot, but there were a few families. In fact, we had a couple of members who lived not too far from us. But our members were scattered from all over Chicago, South Side and North Side. Basically, Chicago was divided into the two, the Hyde Park area and the Waller area. Right? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, and so where was the, the temple? Yoko Morita: On the first floor of the building. It was a family home, but we, we took one of the walls out between the, I guess that would' ; ve been their family room and a, and a dining room, and made it a, and our membership was probably about 30 or 40 families. And so, you know, and it' ; s just the Niseis or Isseis who came. So maybe 20 or 30 people came every Sunday. Anna Takada: It was mostly Isseis? Yoko Morita: Yeah, mostly. Anna Takada: And was this the 1620 North LaSalle? Yoko Morita: Yes. It was, we converted the first floor into a... And so then we lived on the second floor and third floor. Anna Takada: Okay. And as far as your, your personal life as a, a teenager, you know, new to the city. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Can you just describe you know kind of what-- Yoko Morita: Well, at Waller you know, there were, was a large number of Japanese kids. And as, as at Hyde Park, well, basically Waller and Hyde Park were the JA schools. And we had, my group of friends, there were probably 10 or 12 of us, who I guess you' ; d say we formed a club and call ourselves the Skyleens. And we are, you know the Chicago Niseis and Sanseis had made their own clubs. And there must have been close to 30 boys clubs. And, and we you know made up basketball teams and baseball teams and had competition and that stuff. And the group that I belonged to was the Skyleens, and, and it' ; s, you' ; ve mentioned before there was the, the clubs kind of council. I forget what, the Girls Club Council. And I was a member of it. I was not a leadership in that because I was one of the youngest ones. I think we were the youngest group of women because, I mean, as far as Niseis go, we are the youngest. We' ; re the last of them, you know, so we were the last. And, and the one group in Hyde Park. And then last night, I was trying to think of their name, I can' ; t... I think Tonko might have been in it. But, so you know. And we would have our... Because we were not particularly not-not accepted, but we were-- separated ourselves from the Caucasian community as far as high school goes. So we had our own dances, and we had our own basketball league and baseball league and that kind of stuff. So we kept busy. But we also had, I had to work because my dad' ; s temple was so small that he went to work when we came here. He worked, in, in fact the, the man whose house we stayed at the first week, worked as a, I don' ; t know what his job was, but he worked at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. And so he got my dad a job there in their accounting department. And the accounting department that he worked in, their busiest day was Saturday and Sunday. And my dad, of course, had temple on Sundays. So I went in on Saturday and on Sundays, that he couldn' ; t go in. And I worked there. And what we worked in was the Liquor Control Department. And what we counted was the receipts from the bars and the dining rooms, to see how many li--, how many drinks they sold. And then we had to compare it to see none was stolen. That was our job. And we, he, he worked Saturdays. Well, I worked every weekend, but we worked, had to be at work at six o' ; clock. And so I had to get up at, what, five to get on the, on the subway to get to Edgewater Beach. So I never got to sleep in late. At five days a week I went to school, and Saturday and Sunday I went to, to work. And of course our basketball games are on Saturday and Sunday, so... And we could quit working as soon as we finished and balanced our books. Right? And I would work like crazy to get out of there, and the guys would say, we got paid by the hours. And the guys would say, " ; Yoko don' ; t work so fast. We have to you know, stay here as long as we could." ; So that' ; s what I did. Anna Takada: It sounds like you were keeping very busy. Yoko Morita: Very busy for two years. But then my mother started teaching Ikebana. And she, her, it, it really became a business for her, and she, you know we were able to, dad was able to quit working because she was making enough of a livelihood for us because we did not charge our members membership. They just donated whatever they could. And so, there was no regular income coming from the temple, and there was no support coming from the headquarters either, now. You know so we, we had to work. Anna Takada: Do you know why that would' ; ve been, that the, where your father was formerly salaried, why coming to Chicago that... Yoko Morita: He decided he didn' ; t want to be. He said, " ; I' ; m going to make my own living, I' ; m going to do..." ; ' ; cause he knew that they could never afford, the small membership could never afford to be able to pay a salary for a man. I mean, I was heading for college in a couple of years, and so was the rest of my family. So, he decided that he would not ask for a salary. He came here voluntarily, and he said, " ; We will make do with what we can do." ; And we did. Anna Takada: So... Yoko Morita: They donated. You know they, there was a contribution box at, at the church, but it was never anything that they had to give, or that there was a membership due, or anything like that at all. Anna Takada: So would that mean that your father, this temple was kind of independent from the... Yoko Morita: No, he was within the organization, but he didn' ; t get a salary, because the salaries were paid by the members of that particular temple, not from the headquarter organization or anything. Anna Takada: Right, but formerly, they were, they were paying the housing, and things like that. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Okay. And where was your mom teaching ikebana, or how did that work? Yoko Morita: We cleared chairs out from, from Temple, from the temple service, and we' ; d put the tables out, and, and they, it was in the chapel, because that was the only large room. And she would have about maybe 15, 20 students per session, and she had five classes. And she would gather all the material for the classes, we would go to the wholesale florist, and then she would divide it up so that it would be the right, right number of, how you know, what she wanted them to use for that particular lesson. And then, she would have, the school became known as Mishokai and they would have a show, an exhibit, once a year. And, in order to do that, we had, because she had five classes, we had over 100 students. So we had to have different material. You couldn' ; t have the same thing for all of them. We had to have something for all 100, and she and I and my brothers would drive around Indiana, north Illinois, Wisco-- Wisconsin, and look for wild materials that would hold, and then we' ; d buy the flowers and, and divide it up so the students would all have their own arrangements. We' ; d start arranging on about eight o' ; clock Saturday morning, and the first year, we finished the last arrangement at 10 o' ; clock Sunday morning, when the show opened. And so, you know, we worked through the night, and we' ; d go home and take a shower, and we' ; d be back to open the show up. And so, we, we did it at McCormick Place almost every year, and I can' ; t remember what the first year was. But then, I got married, and I had my kids, and I helped her with her thingy. My children slept under the grand piano at McCormick Place during the nights until we' ; d finish whatever we had to finish. Anna Takada: And, and so, this was some kind of like citywide showcase, or... Yoko Morita: Well this was a show to... exhibit for our stu-- our students to show what they have accomplished, or what they could do. And it was publicly, you know it was open to the public. We broadcast, we did newspaper articles, we bought... I mean we have lots of newspaper articles announcing our show. We were on... I don' ; t think you guys would probably remember, but Lee Phillips had sort of a community TV program, and every year she, we would ask her if she would take us on. And so, my mother and I would go on for about two minutes and talk about Mishokai and what the ikebana was, and advertise our show. We had a pretty broad attendance of people who came. Anna Takada: Wow. Yoko Morita: At least a thousand during that one 10-hour period. It' ; s pretty good. Anna Takada: And was your mother... Was she trained in Japan? Yoko Morita: Yes. In fact, she started... When, when they got married, and they came, when she came back with my dad to Vancouver, the students knew that she was an ikebana instructor, so they wanted her to teach. And she never intended to teach. And she told me once, she said, " ; I almost told your father, ' ; Send me back, ' ; cause I don' ; t want to teach. I want a divorce.' ; " ; But he wouldn' ; t send her back. Anna Takada: So it sounds like helping your mother with this, with the school was just another responsibility of yours is that-- Yoko Morita: Yes, and I scheduled my college classes so that I could be home for her daytime classes, so, so I could help her. Because, by then, by the time let' ; s see, by the time I was in college, it was two years later, and we had probably about 30% or 40% of the people were Caucasians. And so we, we had you know, but after years and years and years, most of them knew. I mean the, the terminology, they knew, and most of them came knowing something about it, so they could... And with her hand, and, and fixing whatever you know, arrangements that they had made, and she said, " ; Well, turn this a little bit this way and that way." ; They could. Maybe they didn' ; t get the philosophy behind a lot of it. Some of them did. Most of them probably did not, but they knew what to do. And, and she had a very large, large number of Caucasians, and all kinds of people. We had commercial florists, mostly housewives, but mostly, we had commercial florists. We had a, a child psychologist. We had a, you know a pediatrician, said it relaxed... And men who said that it relaxed them to come to class afterwards, to, doing the ikebana. It was a real large number of people who came and diversity was one of the things, and she taught for 30 years so... Anna Takada: Okay. Going, going back to your own personal life in Chicago... I' ; m wondering, well first, how was, what was, I' ; m wondering if you could tell me, or describe, what Waller was like in... Let' ; s see. That must have been ' ; 50? 1950? Yoko Morita: ' ; 51. 1951. Anna Takada: 1951. So what was Waller like at the time? I know you mentioned there was a fair amount of Japanese American students. Yoko Morita: Right. Well okay. Compared to my high school in Portland, Waller was a pretty wild school. My high school in Oregon was almost a sleepy town kind of school you know? Things were well organized, the kids were pretty civilized, I would say. But at Waller you know, you had to have a pass to get out of your classroom to do anything, and there were hall guards, and I just hated Waller my first year. And then, I, I got to know my, my class advisor, faculty advisor, and she pulled me along, and I, I really got to like Waller a lot. I became very active in student government. I ran for a student government office you know, and senior class office. And I never got active in any of the school activities, but just student government, and I ended up liking Waller, pretty much. But it was very, very different. I, I wrote back to my high school classmates in, in Portland, saying, " ; This is a lousy school." ; But of course, now, it' ; s one of the preeminent schools now, but Waller at that time was a small, small neighborhood school, and it was really quite bad. Anna Takada: As far as quality of education? Yoko Morita: Quality. That' ; s right. Anna Takada: And you mentioned your involvement in, in girls, a girls club, the Skyleens. Yoko Morita: Right, right. Anna Takada: For people who are totally unfamiliar with the Chicago Japanese American community, how would you kind of describe or explain that to someone? Yoko Morita: Well I think we, I, I came in late, because I came in as a, as a junior in high school. But I, I, my assumption is that, because we didn' ; t, we were in high school, but were not going to the high school dances, or going to a lot of high school football games, and stuff. At least at Waller, we weren' ; t. I think maybe at Hyde Park, they might have been more, because there were a lot more Japanese Americans down there. But, so we formed our little, our own group socially to... I mean, diversity was there, but we didn' ; t mix. You know like, at, at that time, the blacks sat with the blacks, you know the Asians they sat with the Asians, and you sit, sat in your own place for lunch, and all that. So, that was what it was. And so we, and I don' ; t know why they, we were the last of the Japanese American clubs to form, so I don' ; t know why the first ones began. Most of them are probably 10 or 12 years older. And, but we did have a social club, and there were enough of us in our age group that we could have a dance once a month. And this council was to sort of schedule the different dances, so the different clubs didn' ; t hold a dance at the same time. It was so that we would all go to each other' ; s dances and things, and that' ; s what it was about. And so, that' ; s how it was formed. And then, I don' ; t think there was another, younger group... of, of girls, at least... who you know formed a club. And even today, we have... Well, my husband belonged to a group in Hyde Park that were called the Ro Babes. I don' ; t know if you' ; ve heard of them, but they were a pretty active bunch of guys. And I, there, and I don' ; t know, didn' ; t know them, any of them, until I met my husband. And, after we all were out of college and married, the Ro Babes held a reunion, I think every 18 months. And at that time, they were young, married kids with, with kids, and so it was a they brought all their children and they, you know, for a weekend, spent at, in mostly I think Tahoe, and Vegas, and that kind of place. And, but at that time, we were married, and, and my husband was assigned to Tokyo. He worked for the United States Treasury Department. He was a customs officer, and he was assigned to the embassy in Tokyo. So, no way can we afford to come from Japan to come for a weekend with a family of three kids, so we didn' ; t join them. But eventually, all the different clubs asked to be part of that reunion. So now, we have what' ; s called the All Chicago Club reunion, and we met every 18 months in Vegas until about four years ago, maybe five years ago. And they have a meeting here now, once...you know those 18... And I have not been able to attend any of them, but it' ; s been active. And so, you know we' ; ve, in Vegas with the spouses and everything, we had almost 200, I think about 200 people at these thingies for a long time, and a lot of the people were in their eighties and nineties when we were still in our seventies. So you know there were, all the people were there, and it was interesting. It was fun. It' ; s fun to get to go back and see ' ; em. And then, people came from as far away as Hawaii. The, there were a couple of Ro Babes who were living in Hawaii, and they came every year. Anna Takada: And, as far as the Skyleens, about how big, or how many girls were in that group? Yoko Morita: I think there were eight, or nine of us, maybe 10. Anna Takada: And so, it sounds like for a lot of people, including yourself, these, these groups had, made quite an impact on you. Yoko Morita: Right. That was our social life, really. You know and, and we dated the guys from these other boy' ; s clubs. There was a, the Lancers I think are, are from, from Hyde Park, and the Ro Babes are from Hyde Park. The Lakers, I think are from Waller, or that area. But you know there, they were, and so, it was two or three boy' ; s clubs and two or three women' ; s, girl' ; s clubs that got together. And so, all of us had maybe 10, 12, 15 members, and we would have a dance. There would be, that' ; s a fairly large, you know... And, and, I think we all sort of, when you look back on the couples, we' ; ve all married the kind of people we dated in high school. Anna Takada: You' ; ve mentioned a few of the groups already. Can you remember some of the, the others or... Yoko Morita: Yeah. The Dawnelles were older than us. There was... Gosh, I don' ; t remember all the names. I, if you had asked me about them, I could have remembered them. Gosh, I can' ; t really remember. I know my sister-in-law, who was about eight years older than I, she was in a club also, but I don' ; t know what her name group is, was either. And my daughter' ; s mother-in-law was in a group, but she also is about 10 years older than I. So, the groups were you know, when we got together as a all Chicago group, there were like maybe 15 or 20 years between the difference of the youngest ones and the older ones. Anna Takada: So we have just a few more minutes left. Before we wrap up, I do want to ask about the, the Nichiren Temple. And if you could kind of explain you know if, the, the trajectory of that temple, if you guys moved locations at any point, or... Yoko Morita: Yes. Well the temple on LaSalle Street was our home. We bought the building. My dad and my mom paid for the building. And so, when he retired, he didn' ; t, we didn' ; t really want to give the temple to them. They would have no place to live. So they, my dad started what they call it, a penny bank, and the members dropped in pennies every time they came to Temple, and, and explained in that thingy, that it continues to get $10,000, which is basically nothing, really. And then, some more years, they got $10,000 more. And then my dad, while we were living in Japan, he came and stayed with us for a month, and he toured Japan and collected money, and he collected like... I think $30,000 or $40,000. And then, more came in from Japan after that, and they were able to buy a new building, which the, the temple bought, the members bought. And so, it' ; s over here on Paulina Street. And that, and they came, I think it was in 19-- late ' ; 70s or early ' ; 80s that they established a temple there. And so then, LaSalle Street became home for my parents until they retired, when they sold their house, right? Anna Takada: And, so and it' ; s still on Paulina... Yoko Morita: It' ; s still there. Yes. Yes. Anna Takada: Do, did somebody, after your father' ; s retirement, did someone kind of take over? Yoko Morita: Yes, in fact my father left the, the Chicago temple, but then the priest in Toronto suddenly passed away, so he moved to Toronto by himself. Anna Takada: Your father? Yoko Morita: Mm-hm, for about three years. And he' ; d come home every three months or so for a couple of weekends, ' ; cause we had a priest here at, in Paulina Street, so that' ; s what he did. And then, he retired then he was going to retire, he retired, to come live with us in Florida, ' ; cause we were living in Florida. My husband' ; s with customs, and he was in Florida. And so, he, they came down, but the Portland temple was, the priest left. And he said, " ; I don' ; t want to just sit at--" ; he was still fairly young. He was in his 80s, and he said, " ; I still want to work some more," ; so he went back, but he only, he found out that he could only, not do it anymore. So he just stayed there for I think a year, or a year and a half, and then came down to live with us in Florida permanently. And then, when we moved, my husband moved to, retired, we moved back to Washington DC, because our children were in that area. Florida' ; s too hot, and I didn' ; t like it, so we came back. But that' ; s why you know, my dad retired in 1983. My mom retired in ' ; 83 also, from her flower... Anna Takada: And so, you still have family in Chicago? Yoko Morita: I have one sister. Anna Takada: And so, so has she stayed... Which sister is this? Yoko Morita: Noriko. Anna Takada: Noriko. So the youngest. And did the rest of your siblings, after college or, or high school, did they all come back to Chicago, or stay in Chicago? Yoko Morita: My, after college, my, my younger brother, T-Bone, taught in Chicago for a year and a half, and was a, he' ; s a physical education teacher, and he was, his first assignment was Waller High School. So he was a teacher at Waller High School while my youngest sister was a freshman at Waller High School, so you know she said there was some conflict there. And then, my brother went... From high school, he enlisted in the Army, and he stayed in the Army until he retired. And he ended up living in, near Fort Lewis in Seattle, Washington. And I got married, and we were here in Chicago until 1969. And then, we moved to, we moved to San Diego for a year. Then, we moved to Washington, DC for six months. Then we went to Japan for five years. And then we, then we came back to DC, and then he was assigned to Florida, and he retired down there. So, but I didn' ; t like Florida, and we kept our house in, in the DC area. So we came back and retired there, ' ; cause our kids said to us. " ; You guys stay in Florida, we' ; re not coming to visit you. It' ; s too far from anything." ; Anna Takada: And, as far as... Because it sounds like you' ; ve made a home in several different cities, not just in the U.S., but in the world. When you think of Chicago you know... Yoko Morita: It' ; s still kind of home, you know? In Japanese, it' ; s furusato. Your home. Because we, I, although, to think of it, it' ; s a short, one of the shorter periods of my life, because I came here as 15 and I lived here when we were, when I was about 31. 10 or 12 years, only. Although, maybe it' ; s the second longest, because DC we' ; ve been now almost 30 years. Anna Takada: Certainly over some formative years, I would imagine. Yoko Morita: Yes, yes. And our children, our children were all born here, though, our three children. And then, but they all lived in San Diego for a while for school, and Chicago for a while in school. Five years in Japan, and then finished, in Virginia, their high school years. And they' ; re all now in college, and out, well some of them. Anna Takada: So unfortunately we' ; re, we' ; re really coming to time, but one thing I like to ask people kind of before we wrap up is if there were any kind of, if there' ; s any kind of message or legacy that you could leave with your children and your grandchildren? What' ; s something that you might like to, to leave with them? Yoko Morita: I think I would like to, for them to remember a lot about... Because my mother was a, a ikebana sensei, and my father was a religious leader. I want them to remember a lot of the cultural things from their ancestors, the things, the, the festivals, the meanings of life, the things we do. Also, to go to temple. And so far, there' ; s no Buddhist Nichiren temple in Washington, but both of us, my daughter who lives in Washington, in the DC area and myself, we have a butsudan to which we say our prayers and you know give incense to. And I would like my yonsei grandchildren, to continue that part of our ancestry, and, and so forth. Anna Takada: And are there any final thoughts, or anything that you' ; d like to share before we wrap up? Yoko Morita: I think we had, our particular family had a good life so far, and a lot of it, some of it is because we were in camp and we moved to Chicago and dispersed. And I' ; m sorry that we' ; ve lost our language, a lot of-- and many of the cultural things, because right now, I have a lot of Japanese American friends in the DC area, but they' ; re all Sanseis, you know younger, older Sanseis. And I' ; m the youngest Nisei, and I' ; m the only one in the group that speaks Japanese, and I, I think that' ; s sad, but what can you, that' ; s the way it goes. So, I would like for us to be able to remember the Japanese culture. Though we live in America, there' ; s a lot of good from the Japanese culture. Anna Takada: Well thank you so much for coming in and sharing. Yoko Morita: Thank you. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MoritaYoko20180904.xml MoritaYoko20180904.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
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Title
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Morita, Yoko (9/4/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Yoko Morita, a nisei born in Canada in 1935, discusses her family's pre-WWII movements between Vancouver, Japan, and Portland and their forced removal to Minidoka after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. After incarceration, the family returned to Portland before eventually moving to Chicago. The daughter of a Nichiren Buddhist priest, she shares memories of life in Minidoka and of the Japanese American community in Portland in the immediate postwar era, particularly the social events that took place in her father's temple. She also recounts her arrival in Chicago as a teenager in 1951, including her participation in a girls club, the Chicago nisei social scene, experiences at Waller High School, and employment at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. Also notable are her memories of assisting her mother, the founder of the Mishokai ikebana school in Chicago. Having lived in many places as an adult, including Japan, Florida, and the Washington, D.C. area, she expresses an attachment to Chicago as her "furusato" or hometown. She concludes her interview by expressing a desire for future generations to know and appreciate Japanese culture.
Date
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2018-09-04
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mukushina, Susumu
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/14/2017 Mukushina, Susumu (9/14/2017) 1:00:44 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Mukushina, Susumu Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/306096279 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/306096279?h=83e4ee8532" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 So if you could just start by stating your name and your hometown. Susumu M.: 00:00:06 My name is Susumu Mukushina and I' ; m currently living in Chicago, Illinois. AT: 00:00:14 And where, and when were you born? SM: 00:00:17 I was born on October 8, 1942. I was born in Los Angeles County Hospital. Um, even though that was not an internment hospital, my mother was about to be bordered on a train to Heart Mountain, but she had me in her belly and that was a few days overdue. So the doctors a forbade, forbade the authorities to have my mother on the train. So I was born in Los Angeles officially. AT: 00:00:53 So did she have to go to an assembly center or did or was she just in LA? SM: 00:01:00 Well, all Japanese had to go to a pre-detention center. Um, my, my parents went to the Santa Anita Race Track and they occupied one of the stalls, it was not very pleasant, but they made the best out of it. AT: 00:01:18 And so did she leave Santa Anita to go to LA? To have you in the hospital? SM: 00:01:26 I don' ; t know the exact circumstances, but the trains are about to leave. And um, um, my father and mother were taken to the Los Angeles County Hospital and on October 8th I was born. AT: 00:01:44 And what did your, what did your parents do? SM: 00:01:47 Well, um, my father was a Buddhist minister and uh, he came to this country in 1936 originally to Hawai' ; i as a missionary, but not in a missionary in the Christian sense, not to evangelize people, but to uh, bring comfort to the Japanese who were working in Hawai' ; i. At that time, he was a young man, he was born in 1911. So he, um, just a lot of energy to see the world. So his first trip to Japan was a 19, from Japan, was in 1936. He went back in 1938. He came back with a wife, my mother and a back to Hawai' ; i and I don' ; t know the exact dates, but they migrated from Hawai' ; i to Los Angeles. AT: 00:02:48 Where, where was he from in Japan? SM: 00:02:50 My father had a temple in Tokyo. And um, my mother was a born near Tokyo. My father was born in Taipei when it was a Japanese occupied. So it was like a State. And um, I didn' ; t know the circumstances, but he came back to Japan before he was a, the age of five and I' ; m, from what I gather, his mother had, had emotional problems, uh, so she couldn' ; t help my father bring him up. So he was taken to a monastery and he was there until he went to college. AT: 00:03:44 And do you have any siblings? SM: 00:03:47 Yes, I have one. His name is Masao. His American name is Warren. AT: 00:03:53 Warren? SM: 00:03:56 Hmh AT: 00:03:56 And is he older or younger? SM: 00:03:57 Younger. AT: 00:04:00 And so when was Masao born? SM: 00:04:02 1947 AT: 00:04:05 So after the war? SM: 00:04:06 After the war, mhm. AT: 00:04:08 And so your, your parents went to Santa Anita? They had you. And then did they go back to Heart Mountain? SM: 00:04:17 They had no choice. Okay. Yeah. So at the next available train, um, what they went, they were taken to Heart Mountain. Um on a side note, which I didn' ; t know until a couple of years ago was that, um, I, I talked to Gene Yashima and Gene was surprised that my father was at the hospital where I was born and um, I thought it was normal for a husband to be with his wife, but Japan, but priests were separated from their families before, uh, the camp. And so, uh, he shouldn' ; t have been there when I was born and um, uh, that, I think he slipped through the paperwork somehow, but that' ; s another story, but we could go onto that later on. Okay. AT: 00:05:14 Yeah, I mean, do you even have any, any details about how he was able to go to the hospital? SM: 00:05:18 No, um, well my mother and father said that, uh, um, um, when they we' ; re living in Japantown in Los Angeles. One Sunday, two FBI agents knocked on the door and my father answered. And, and the agent said are you Zaishin Mukushina, my father. He says, yes. So why, why are you hiding from us? And he says, well, I' ; m not hiding. He says my name is on the mailbox, you know, that' ; s how you found me. And he did a lot of social work with the local Buddhist temple and, uh, he was very popular amongst the merchants, uh, in the, in the area. Um, so, um, um, I think the agents were convinced that he wasn' ; t trying to hide from them. So naturally, they uh, they checked out a story of, yeah, he did a lot of social work at the local temple, you know. Uh, and um, uh, and for some reason he was not asked to be separated from my mother, which was a good thing because she will be by a, by herself. Because we had no job, no family here in America. And had she, had my father had been separated, she would' ; ve been alone. AT: 00:06:39 So nothing came of that exchange with the FBI? SM: 00:06:43 Um, later on we were sent to Heart Mountain, a determent determined camping in Wyoming. And we were there for 18 months. And my father, uh, uh, was the authorities found out that my father was a Buddhist priest and he said, you don' ; t belong here. You belong to a maximum security internment camp called Tule Lake in California. So about 18 months later, after we lived at Heart Mountain, we were transferred from Heart Mountain to Tule Lake and we were in Tule Lake until the war ended. AT: 00:07:27 So that would have been, um, New Speaker: 00:07:31 1945, something like that. New Speaker: 00:07:34 But when you left Heart Mountain, that would have been ' ; 43? New Speaker: 00:07:36 Yeah around there. New Speaker: 00:07:39 Um, and then what, what about after the war? Where did your, where did you all go? SM: 00:07:48 Well, um, that was interesting because as I stated earlier, we didn' ; t have family in America and normally if you didn' ; t have family in America after the war, you were shipped back to Japan because our visa expired, you see. And so, um, uh, the interesting story that my mother told me the last six months before she passed away was that, um, when the war ended, the commandant of Tule Lake called on my father and, I said, well, my father, so he was the only person there and the commandant, was saying that, um, I' ; ve been observing you from afar and you, you have very good way of with people to calm down the hotheads. Now, I don' ; t know if you know this or not, but Tule Lake was maximum security, a lot of draft dodgers so-called draft dodgers, and people who are pro-Japanese were there. There was a lot of dissension, people don' ; t like to be incarcerated and they want to go back to Japan or they didn' ; t want to be drafted unless their parents are freed from internment camps and that kind of stuff. So my father was a peacemaker. That' ; s what I was told. And so the commandant told my father or we need people like you. And so he offered them three tickets for him, my mother, and me on a ship back to Japan or a, or to go to Seabrook Farms in New Jersey? Uh, and so, um, at that time my mom said we didn' ; t know anything about Japan. All we knew that was bombed out country. We didn' ; t know if there were enough food for people to eat, yeah. So, um, my father says we' ; re staying in America and since it will Seabrook Farms, he knew that at least that we' ; ll eat something. So we, uh, so we took a train from Tule Lake to Seabrook Farms, New Jersey. AT: 00:09:56 Did your parents, did they, were they in communication with family back in Japan? SM: 00:10:02 It was very hard to know because of the mail system was almost nonexistent at that time. There was a war going on, so it put a stamp on an envelope and send something to Japan. You don' ; t know if it got there and the other way around, you know, I don' ; t think that people, my parents, his relatives knew where we were. AT: 00:10:29 And so you were, you were very young. Of course, during the war where, where were your earliest memories? AT: 00:10:40 Well, my earliest memories was when I was about four or five years old, you know, and uh, um, things were kind of foggy back then. But I was speaking, um speaking Japanese to friends. Now mind you, even though I was born in America, my first language was Japanese. My parents didn' ; t speak any English. So in camp, when people came to talk to my parents, they spoke in Japanese. And of course we had no television, no radio, and the only English spoken was I, I' ; m just supposing imagining we' ; re, um, Nisei' ; s, second generation Japanese on the outside. But my parents spoke to me in Japanese and everything was in Japanese. So when I was in, in Seabrook Farms are first non-Japanese contacts where Estonians. They spoke German. So I think I knew more German than English at that time. It was kind of um, uh, I wasn' ; t all that clear, but I didn' ; t speak English until I was eight years old. AT: 00:11:55 And so what are those early memories? That was in New Jersey? SM: 00:12:00 Yeah, New Jersey, yeah uh, my father was a priest there. He established the Buddhist temple there and I remember giving him a lot of sermons and he will be quite creative. He' ; ll have puppets, you know, actual puppets and um, he had people engaged and um, um, he gave pretty good sermons. Yeah. His, I remember, it was all in Japanese though. AT: 00:12:21 Okay it wasn' ; t. Uh, do you recall the name of that temple? SM: 00:12:27 Yeah. It' ; s called Seabrook Farms Buddhist Church, it' ; s still there. AT: 00:12:37 And, so it sounds like there is a, a bit of a Japanese American community in Seabrook Farms? SM: 00:12:43 I don' ; t know currently, but uh, but there was a Buddhist temple there AT: 00:12:49 Well, and because I know there were a number of Japanese Americans who went there as well. And if he was doing the ceremonies in Japanese. How long was your family there in New Jersey? SM: 00:13:06 Up to about to about 1951, ' ; 52. Now, my father wanted to do more than farming. I think, uh my father was very pragmatic and he knew that the family could be fed, you know, so even though the Japanese who were field hands, many of them--most of them--had education and advanced degrees, you know, but it was a job, it was a way to feed your family. So my father, uh, heard through the grapevine that, uh, a place called Chicago was a place of opportunity where you can make more money and, and provide for better living standard. So, um, I can remember coming on a train from East Coast to Chicago and I remember I remember train rights, you know, I was a little kid so let' ; s just, you know, happy seeing the mountains of Pennsylvania and the train, like I' ; m rumbling along. And so I had very pleasant thoughts. I' ; d never experienced anything negative and I think my parents sheltered me from that. So I never felt anger from them. I never felt anger from my parents' ; friends, you know, but it was a, it was a happy childhood even though I was in camp. AT: 00:14:36 Were you, were you in school in camp or SM: 00:14:39 No AT: 00:14:39 Oh, and what about in Seabrook Farm? SM: 00:14:44 Yeah, um, I started, um, back then the semester started in September, uh, and there was the midterm, so I started a year late because I didn' ; t know any English. So, um, so there' ; s, well maybe you ought to start next year. So in a sense I failed kindergarten, you know, so that was the beginning of academia. AT: 00:15:12 So, you took the train ride to Chicago in ' ; 51? SM: 00:15:15 ' ; 51. AT: 00:15:16 ' ; 51. And then where did your family settle in the city? SM: 00:15:20 Well, we lived in--I know the address--it' ; s at 4450 South Oakenwald Avenue in Chicago. That place no longer exists, you know, something else is there, but it was a roach infested ghetto building. Our neighbors are mostly cockroaches, you know...But there were some Japanese living there, but back back in ' ; 51, ' ; 52, people could reject your application to rent based on race. So they' ; ll say we don' ; t rent to people, your type, that kind of thing. And there was no legal recourse. AT: 00:16:06 And which neighborhood? SM: 00:16:11 It was on South Side. There was a little Japanese community from the lakefront. Oakenwald Avenue was on the eastern part of Chicago, probably about a block block and a half or two blocks away from Lake Shore Drive. And there was a Japanese store on 43rd street called Star Market and Star Market, it looked big to me as a child, but it' ; s probably maybe one half or two thirds the size of a 711 today. But that' ; s the only place in Chicago, that I knew of, that a person could buy Japanese food, you know, like, uh, like sukiyaki meat and fish and rice, you know. I don' ; t think Jewel food store was around back then, but there were some other food stores and, and one thing that always stuck in my head was we were um, we were not rich, you know, my mother was very good in saving money and, and I knew that she could go to a American food store and get milk and products at a cheaper price. And my mother always said that, well, we have to support each other because if Japanese don' ; t support each other, who will? Long before food stamps, long before welfare, no medicaid. So we had to support ourselves. And so a Japanese community in 19 in the early 1950s supported each other. And um, is there, I remember even as a kid growing up age seven, eight, nine, I had pretty happy memories. AT: 00:17:54 Where were you going to school? SM: 00:17:56 We went to a school called Shakespeare Grammar School. Shakespeare, is no lon, the building is still there, but the school has, it' ; s not a school anymore, it' ; s something else. And I was, I was there in a very overcrowded rooms, were, um, I think there was like 45 or 50 in a room. AT: 00:18:19 And what did your father end up doing in Chicago? SM: 00:18:23 He worked in a factory first it was called a Paul Paul revere. They made pots and pans and then, um, uh, uh, they made cameras, Revere now, Revere camera, and then it became Woolen Stock. Woolen Stock was a German company that, that made tape recorders. And so, so he was on the assembly line. Uh, uh, that' ; s how he supported the family. Interesting, was uh, maybe, well, it' ; s interesting, that has a bonus he got a turkey for Thanksgiving and he didn' ; t know what a turkey was. He brought home a turkey and my mother thought it was a big chicken, you know, so, um, so, um, uh, she had to ask our neighbors, how do you cook this bird? You know. And um, so we had our first Thanksgiving dinner. Um, my mother was really worried about that. It wasn' ; t not overcooked or undercooked. And those are some fond memories I have of my or dinners with my family. AT: 00:19:40 What else do you remember about those early days in Chicago, were there a lot of other Japanese Americans SM: 00:19:50 Yeah AT: 00:19:51 At your school? SM: 00:19:51 No, there are some in our school, but I' ; m, uh, I belonged to the Cub Scouts. It was all Japanese American Cub Scouts. Then, um, I was in the Boy Scouts that Boy Scouts. It was troop 515, I think still around and that' ; s where all my friends were Japanese, you know, uh, um, uh, or the rest were African Americans and it was kind of hard to it. It was just hard to know each other culturally. So, um, um, when I was in the Boy Scouts, um, um, um, interesting thing was that every one of the Boy Scouts I knew went to college. We were talking about college, even in grade school. Where are you going to, people were talking about various schools and um, some of the, uh, the thoughts that came out of that was when I moved to another, when we moved to another neighborhood on the North Side, um, I had my first non-Japanese, Caucasian friends. They were Irish Catholic, must of them. And, and, um, so I remember asking some of my friends, which college are you going to? None of them had college plans and I remember being totally shocked because every one of my Japanese friends went to college as though it was, you went to grammar school, high school, college. Of course, we all go to college and, and I am, and that was my, my introduction to a, uh, a non-Japanese culture. And I remember one instance, um, his name was Ken and it bothered me so much that I still remembered it, you know. And I said, uh, he went to St. Gregory' ; s Catholic Grammar School, St. George. And I said uh you' ; re smart, why don' ; t you go to college? And I remember him saying this, my old man will kill me. I says, I thought he was kidding. He said, college is for pencil pushers, you make, you' ; re a man, by doing things with your hands. And I said, your father would punish you for going to college? And that was my first surprise coming from an all Japanese background. And, and I found out that was a fairly common, you know, so I quit talking about college to my non-Japanese friends and um, and they thought it was weird because I was going to, I was thinking of going to college, you know, so, uh, that was my cultural shock, you know, uh, as a, as a kid because we are playing baseball, football things that kids play, you know, and getting into trouble playing tags, that kind of stuff. So we all knew each other. But, uh, um, uh, another thing was that this one boy had a birthday and he came to me, he says, I can' ; t invite you to my birthday party, I said because why not? Because my mom says no, Japanese. Now, if right now it doesn' ; t bother me, but if you' ; re 12, 13, 14 it bothers you. And that' ; s when I first became kind of aware of my Japanese identity. AT: 00:23:17 From other kids? SM: 00:23:20 Yeah. Peers, who' ; d love to have me at their party. You know. Because he came to me and says, I can' ; t invite you to my party. He says, I want you to come. You know, that kind of stuff. And I remember this one lady, uh, our neighbor, um, when my mom and I will walk to the store, she' ; ll just turn it back, you know, and my mother was a, I will say, why is she doing that? That' ; s just, in Japanese, it doesn' ; t matter, it doesn' ; t matter. We went away. And these, I think that was the awakening on my Japanese identity. And um, another moment was um, when my mom and I were at the corner of Clark Street and Balmoral on North Side. There was a cigar store. Now it' ; s, uh, uh, uh, I think it' ; s a hamburgers there now, you know, but we were there and my mother speak, spoke Japanese and, and the, we were just talking about, I don' ; t remember, we' ; re talking about this one day he came to us and says, speak English. I don' ; t understand you. That was a shock. So I think when you' ; re like a preteen or teen, you become very sensitive to your, uh, you know, I caught that, like your awakening, you know. So, um, so that was my first, uh, um, uh, um, you, you could call my first baptism into a non-Japanese culture. AT: 00:24:50 And when your family was in Chicago. Um, you had mentioned that you were in the boy scouts. Were there other, um, activities that you would, um, that you were involved in that work within the Japanese American community. Like any church or temple? SM: 00:25:10 I went to Japanese school on Saturday. We all, we all with the Japanese school, you know, with them whether or not, you know, parents just took us there. And that was at a, a, um, a Protestant church about two blocks from where I lived. And, um, and my father, even though he was a Buddhist priest, he was, he was very good friends with the minister there. His name was Nakamura. I remember that. And, uh, uh, he loaned us for free the rooms of the church so that, uh, uh, the Japanese language could be taught to the other children at least to keep some identity of who we were. And we hated that because we wanted to play baseball and football this. But we were forced to learn Kanji and Katakana and Hiragana, that kind of stuff. But uh, in retrospect, I' ; m glad that I went there. But if you' ; re a kid, no one, no one wants to go to school on Saturday. AT: 00:26:03 Can you still speak and read and write pretty well? SM: 00:26:07 No, I think speaking is uh language skill, that has to be kept up. My, my mother passed away in 2004 and so when she was in a nursing home and so whenever I saw her, we spoke in Japanese, I encouraged her to speak Japanese, you know, so we also probably hear Japanese language for a three, four, or five hours a week and then she' ; d just speak to me and tell me what' ; s going on in her life. And she was making crochets and things like that. I didn' ; t mind what she was talking about, but I' ; m, I' ; m in in earlier, my father passed away in 1990 when I visited my parents. They all spoke Japanese. So, uh, it came into my mind, my brain. But since 2004, um, none of my close friends speak Japanese. And so, uh, I lost the ability to speak even though that was my first language. What was interesting was when I first visited Japan, uh, my Japanese was getting very, very rusty even at that point. When we were AT: 00:27:18 When was it? SM: 00:27:18 A back in, the first time was 1978, you know. And um, I remember being in Tokyo and people are speaking so fast. I, I had a headache, but on third day everything fell in place. I understood language, I understood the characters I learned in Japanese school. So I didn' ; t get lost, you know, in, in subways. But that' ; s what I meant. I meant, uh, I, I was so glad that I learned that uh a Japanese language, at the Japanese school because somehow I think all of that, all of that education is buried in your brain someplace it' ; s gray matter someplace. Maybe in, in, uh, uh, our version of a hard drive, brain drive. AT: 00:28:00 At what age did you stop going to Japanese school? SM: 00:28:04 About 14 time high school started at that time. We moved and we moved from South Side to the North Side. New Speaker: 00:28:13 Where on the North Side? New Speaker: 00:28:15 We lived on Rascher Avenue in Rogers, now called Rogers Park and um, uh, we live about, we lived about a quarter of mile from Foster and Ashland Avenue Northwe, Northwest. And what was interesting was that we were, we moved there because the landlord was the first Japanese person to buy property there. The last name was Boji. And um, I guess my father has some prominence so they invited my family to a better neighborhood, better education and so forth. And so we moved there and there was only one other Japanese family probably within jeez, a mile, half a mile and they were called Watanabe. And they were on Balmoral Avenue, just near Balmoral and Ashland Avenue. And, um, uh, they had a little girl about my age, her name was Lynne and that was my association with the Japanese community at that time, you know. AT: 00:29:26 You said that your, your father had some prominence. Do you know why or how he would have SM: 00:29:39 Well, in Japanese culture they don' ; t like to talk about their accomplishments. They just don' ; t, you know. Um, uh, I remember growing up as a, as a child, as a kid, I knew a lot of people who serve on in 442nd, Go for Broke Regiment. And they were pretty, they were pretty humble guy, Hawaiian non-Hawaiian, you know. And, and I would say things like, well, did you have to shoot someone, you know, how kids talk, they will never talk about it. Naw, I was war and things were kind of messy. And they' ; ll change topics, right away--hey how are the Cubs doing? Something like that, you know. Um, the plaque that I donated to the society there, um, it was given. Oh, um, the back of the uh, the, uh, the plaque, is the name of the person who donated it, you know, AT: 00:30:34 Can you, before we go on, just, can you describe the plaque you' ; re talking about? SM: 00:30:37 Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s a one plaque, I' ; ll say it' ; s about two, two and a half feet like this, and maybe about eight, 10 inches solid wood software, balsa wood and some personal skills have made a picture of a the camp and Heart Mountain in the background. And he gave it to my father as a gift. He said thank you very much for what you did. And my father would never tell me. I said, what, what did you do? You know how kids are, you know. And my father would say, it was really nothing. It was nothing. Nothing. But it was nothing. If you' ; ve seen the plaque it' ; s more than a nothing, more than a nothing. And so, um, uh, so on, back of the, uh, of the plaque, you see the exact date on there and the person who, uh, who donated that, and one days I' ; s like to photograph the back of that plaque when this exhibit is over. But uh in camp. There was no, I don' ; t think, I don' ; t think money was allowed. So everything was kind of bartered and he was, my father was given that the plaque in Heart Mountain and it hung on our home for years. So we just took for granted, you know, until later in life I saw the problem and solve that and I saw the wood, began to see cracks in the wood and I was not ah, I wanted the wood to be preserved so that it wouldn' ; t fall apart. Then I, that' ; s when I called Jean, Jean Yashima and um, uh, with great sorrow, I gave it to her, but I knew that she would take care of it. AT: 00:32:34 When your family moved to the North Side, that was probably, that was the mid fifties? SM: 00:32:44 Mhm. AT: 00:32:44 Which high school did you attend? SM: 00:32:45 I went to grammar school first, in fifth grade, it was Trumbull Grammar School. Trumbull is no longer in existence, but the building is still at Ash, uh, Ashland and Foster. I went to Amundsen High School at Damen and Foster. AT: 00:33:02 And how did the, how did living on the North Side compared to living on the South Side? SM: 00:33:08 World of difference. Um, I, I knew that when I transferred to the, we transferred, um, in March and I was in fifth grade and for a while my mother told me, you know, have the Trumbull School was about two years ahead of the, uh, of the ghetto school, Shakespeare I was at. So my mother was very good to mathematics and geography, so, uh, so she kept me up, you know, even though she couldn' ; t read a word of English, she was a very encouraging person too, well, I' ; m glad she was there. AT: 00:33:53 She would help you? SM: 00:33:54 Help you, with my homework and um not sure what she was saying, I' ; m speaking, the other school was really slow, you know. So, um, so I was way behind academically when I went to my Mount Trumbull School and I was academically behind for the next four or five years, I think I had to catch up. AT: 00:34:23 How did that work exactly? Were do you, did you have to do any repeat a grade or anything or. SM: 00:34:30 No, well, back in 1957 I graduated, we all had to take IQ tests .and I can, we don' ; t do that now, but that was the latest thing in psychology. We' ; re, uh, we' ; re, uh, we' ; re all the children in the world in the country could be measured, by IQ, you know, not knowing that there' ; s not a bias in IQ. But if you' ; re 12, 13 years old, what do you know, you know? And, and, um, this is again, stuck in my head. Earlier I stated that we, all, all the kids were thinking about going to college, you know, going to college and when, um, when I was talking with Mrs. Mann, my eighth grade counselor, she said, I don' ; t think you' ; re going to make it through high school. I said, what? You know, so well, because here' ; s the rational, here' ; s, here' ; s why, you' ; re reading grade is 5.2, you know, fifth grade average when I was in eighth grade. So I was three years behind. My IQ was 92, average is 100, you need 120 to go to college. She said, she said, forget about college, you know, and um, I, I, those words stuck, not personally, but I was very ashamed because I' ; d be the only Japanese kid not going to college, you know, that was my thought. You know, my best friend, you know, he was going to Lane Tech and, and um, uh, we' ; re talking about going to Northwestern or you know, all these good schools, all these good schools because at the University of Illinois and that kind of stuff. And um, I didn' ; t tell my parents that, you know, Oh yeah, my parents also said, listen to your teachers. They' ; re always right. You know, so uh, so whenever I complained about my teacher being mean to me, my mother would say, no she' ; s a teacher, you outta know better. So here I am, an authority, authority figure telling me I was not smart enough to go to high school, you know. AT: 00:36:40 Was it, you weren' ; t smart enough to go to high school? SM: 00:36:40 No, no, I could go to college. Excuse me. So um, and um, and when I went to Amundsen, my first year I was in a remedial class, they called that the slowpoke class, you know. So everyone there had low reading scores. And, and again, again you know, this is my fate, you know, and my counselors there, they' ; re telling me to take something you can do with your hands be a mechanic or, or do something with your hands because you don' ; t have the brains, the smarts, the intelligence to finish high school. So they were actually kind of encouraging me to not to do something else in high school. But what happened was that my, um, uh, I started school September, first year was in June, my Marines were coming in was 5.2. So they wanted to have at least one year advantage I have a 5.0, 6.2 and some people 4.8, you know, it was that range. And um, um, I remember that a teacher, her name was Mrs. Baxter was saying when test results came in on the second tour, she was saying, Oh, you said Mary, you went for 4.8 to a 6.4. Great. And she' ; ll come back and forth. Oh, Steve you didn' ; t do very well you remain about the same. Then she says Susumu, you know, you went from 5.2 to 10.8. They thought I cheated and I said how could I cheat on a test, you know, especially if it was written out. So I was supposed to be in honors English, but they didn' ; t want to do that. No one went from, from the remedial class to honors. So I just stayed in the same level throughout the level. So that was my, my exposure to high school. AT: 00:39:10 So you said most of your classmates were Irish Catholic? SM: 00:39:16 It was interesting. Yeah. I lived on ah Rascher Avenue. Families north of Balmoral were Irish Catholic, there was a divide. And south of Balmoral were Protestants, you know. So, um, uh, so when I played, um, the Catholics back then didn' ; t play much with the Protestants, you know, I didn' ; t understand why, you know, but uh, uh, but I got on well with everybody. So, uh, um, so, um, I found that out as I lived there, you know, because I noticed that everybody on my street block, all my friends went to St. George' ; s or St. Gregory' ; s and everyone, uh, uh, living south of Balmoral went to Trumbull, Trumbull Grammar School. So that' ; s when I got curious about, about why people do that, you know, religion and that kind of thing. AT: 00:40:19 And I' ; m sorry if you mentioned this. SM: 00:40:19 Go ahead. AT: 00:40:19 Did you say that your family was in involved in any temples or churches? SM: 00:40:24 Yeah, my father had a Buddhist temple in the apartment. Um, we call it the Chicago, Chicago Buddhist Church. And most of the parishioners were people from camp, you know, and so it was more like a social gathering. My dad would preach and so forth. But what was fun was after the service, we never went home, you know, people brought, maybe it' ; s Japanese tradition, but they brought their food along. We had fabulous Japanese food, you know, and they' ; ll stay to watch baseball and football and whatever. And it was not unusual for services to start at 1:00 PM when the Cubs are playing, w:e started at 1230, you know, watched the game. It was not unusual for people to stay until 7:00, 8:00 in the evening. Just to socialize because that' ; s the only time to, uh, to let off steam, I suppose, if they had bad time at work, you know. So, um, so my father, uh, uh, um, so I found that the temple and perhaps even some Christian churches today are a, it' ; s more than just to hear a sermon go home. It was the effort to be like a big family affair. And I was talking to some of my friends who like Japanese food, I took Japanese food back then for granted because it was so great, you know, and, and Japanese ladies would come to my home, you know, early in the morning and my mother and these will be talking about but don' ; t make some sushi and some all kinds of Japanese food, you know. It was a feast, you know. And uh, of course, uh, as a kid, I didn' ; t appreciate that, you know, I just ate and ate the food and the, um, uh, I, I had a very good memories, you know, it was a very warm, warm gathering. And um, um, I think my father wants said, uh, the service, we had service once a month. It wasn' ; t every month. Service was just for gathering people together. So, but sermons, it just an excuse for people to come together. So that' ; s how my father thought about things. He never thought of himself as a, as a great orator or, or, or a great leader, you know, he just, um, he was just a very humble person, naturally humble. And so he said, oh, I' ; d like to provide a service. We' ; re all friends can meet together. And oen informal setting, casual setting would talk about politics, talk about baseball. Could talk about lots of things, work, you know, a kid' ; s education. It was a, I really cherished those days. AT: 00:43:07 What was, so you were, I mean, of course you were very young in camp. How did you, was that experience something that your family talked about? How, like where did you, how would you describe your own um like, development of those family memories? SM: 00:43:33 Well, the Japanese families community never talked about the camp. Oh, they' ; ll say, but the only mention of camp was: Where were you at? I was at this camp. Or I was at Heart Mountain. That was about the extent of it. I never heard a bad thing about America, you know, even though that we were forced into the camps and I never heard about that FDR was a rotten guy or anything, nothing like that. And people, people who fought in the 442nd regiment, you know, they talk about, they talk about their loss of their friends. They, a lot of people died in 442. But it was never out of bitterness, it was out of sadness, but it was out of duty and obligation. They were great Americans. They, I try to imagine a soldier being drafted out, internment camp and, and, um, the mother and her father and her siblings are behind camp, they said, what are we fighting for? You know, and yet they fought for the country. And, and the 442nd was the most decorated unit in history, uh, uh, of warfare. More people died. And, and, uh, I think that' ; s the tribute to the Japanese, uh, thinking I think, you know, um. Going back to Japanese history, you know, um, people in Japan were not angry at the 442 because in feudal Japan, you fought for daimyo. For various warlords, you know, and you were loyal to that uh, lord. If you' ; re not loyal, you were considered a spy, you were considered a lower, a lower person. So they, so the Japanese mentality is that you' ; re, you' ; re Japanese face, speak Japanese, if you' ; re in America, if that' ; s your home, you fight for your home. So there was never a backlash from the Japanese people I knew who lived in Japan about a Japanese serving in the US army in America. And these are some of the things that, uh, that seeped into my, uh, my soul, you know, as the years go by, you know. People I never heard of, I talked to relatives, never said, how could you fight for America when you in camp and all, you know, we can do this kind of stuff, I never heard that. And I' ; m being very sincere about that. It was just the, uh, the Japanese culture. Uh, my father says, war is crazy. Crazy things happen. Let' ; s go, just move on. Craziness happened on both sides. So I learned a lot from my father. To this day, I don' ; t like to look back, you know, I like to look forward. Life is not perfect, you know, so I just like to move forward and I' ; d like, I don' ; t like to dwell on the past too much even though they may be very hurtful. AT: 00:46:49 How would you, how would you describe your experience in learning about what happened to your family? You know, piecing together these stories of, hearing about the FBI coming to your house, for example, or you know, your mother getting to leave to go to LA to have you. Um, how, how would you describe the journey of, of piecing those stories together? SM: 00:47:26 I was a little surprised because it didn' ; t come at once. It came over the years, you know? And um, if you, as my mother and father, they weren' ; t just give you a direct answer. They' ; ll say, oh, that' ; s ah, I don' ; t think about it. But as I grew older, like my mother, uh, telling me six months before her death, how we stayed in America. She just said she just stated out of nowhere, we were just having coffee and just talking: Oh, by the way, we' ; re lucky to be in America. I said oh? You know. And then she started speaking and that was news to that, that was news to me. She' ; d never stated that before. And I was in my sixties at the time, you know, fifties I think, I was pretty old guy. A lot older than you are, you know. And so, uh, it came out in bits and pieces. But, uh, my mother and father never said that in bitterness. I can seriously say that. And even my father' ; s parents' ; friends, you know, they were uh, they were frustrated. But then are they never, um, uh, they were extremely kind people, you know. AT: 00:48:41 When did you learn about the camps? SM: 00:48:45 Well, I was brought up in one, so I still had memories of it, you know. Uh, so, uh, so it is, like it was revealed to me, but my father always pressed forward. And so he never talked about the camp, he' ; d talk about good things in camp, you know? Um, okay. Here are some things that, I don' ; t remember this, but he said that, uh, I think that public best, at Heart Mountain, you know, were people just, it' ; d be Japanese style. And he said that when I was about one year old, he' ; d put me on his shoulders and I would be squealing like a pig. He says, you know, so there were some of the friendly, um fond memories. Again, the memories of my stay in camp were very positive, very positive. And it came to the surface years afterwards when it was becoming and became an adult. AT: 00:49:49 What was coming to the surface? SM: 00:49:51 Our experiences, experience, uh, of, of camp. I think you speak to a lot of Japanese people who were from the gener, they would not, I, it' ; d be very rare for someone to just speak about the camp, you know, you have to kind of draw them out of it. AT: 00:50:11 And how, how does it feel coming to an exhibition like this and seeing the narrative right now and seeing your family' ; s piece in the show? SM: 00:50:23 Well, um, I saw them, I saw some of those pictures before, some of the photographs before I saw new ones. It just brought back memories of where was. But not, it was, it was, um, it was peaceful, you know, um, I didn' ; t like to see little children in trucks either with a face sticking up between bars, so that shouldn' ; t have happened. But it did happen. And um, it' ; s something for people to always remember, you know, that though you can' ; t just ah round up a group of people because they look different, you know. And, and put them in a camp. It doesn' ; t solve any problems, you know. Um, one thing I learned, I learned about the camp was some of my friends think what Japanese had to, uh, be interned for their safety or because of alleged terrorist. That' ; s the corporate propaganda. But the story, but the comment I will throw out, we' ; ll say if Japanese we' ; re so endangered, dangers of causing terrorism. Why weren' ; t Hawaiian Japanese interned? Remember Pearl Harbor happened in Japan, in Japanese, we' ; re still working on the naval yard, you know, working as cooks or janitors or someone you know, and they say what it says Hawaiian Japanese were not interned? And I said no, you know, and uh, um, I think that the, uh, the internment, one was economics. Um, I saw an exhibit down there or down there, saying that about 40 percent of all the crops, crops, um, came out of Japanese hands before WWII. I did some research many, many years ago about that and I saw the titles, ah the land titles, and uh, um, a land titles of the 1930s in that area were all Japanese, were mostly Japanese. And um, I looked at titles in the, in the, in the forties, late forties. They' ; re all American names. And, and if, if one group of people controlled 40 percent of an industry, that' ; s a lot of money and I think that was a, that was not stated to Roosevelt, but I think that was the reason why Japanese were interned, they wanted the properties, not all of their properties, but those farmlands. And those farmlands today are extremely valuable and I think they' ; re owned by Japanese people, but the Japanese people started those farms. And, uh, and then, uh, uh, my, uh, my understanding of history back then was I said to my father for the, why didn' ; t Japanese go to a lawyer to fight all these kinds of things. And then I read later on, this my own saying that the assumption assumption, some American, Caucasian, uh, lawyers try to help them, but their clients will say, if you help those families, I' ; m withdrawing my business. So that' ; s why I didn' ; t have any legal representation. The only legal group that helped the Japanese were, the, uh, the um, uh, the, uh, American Civil Liberty, the American Civil Liberties Union, ACLU. And they' ; re mostly Jewish and, and the Jews were rounded up in Europe, so they didn' ; t care, if they saw injustice. So they' ; re the ones who have argued a case of some of the case, uh, for the, uh, the Japanese. One thing was um, 1930, early 1930s to late 1930s, the California passed a law stating that if you' ; re a Japanese ancestry, ancestry, ancestry, you cannot own land, you know, I think you know about that. And what happened was that, uh, they found a loophole and that the babies were American citizens. So the baby' ; s own the land, but they need legal help for that. They came from the ACLU. But no one else will help them. AT: 00:54:53 That' ; s SM: 00:54:53 That' ; s my understanding. Maybe some people would dispute this. But, uh, that' ; s what I learned on my own. AT: 00:55:06 As a Japanese American who was in camp. What is your response to some of the rhetoric and the actions of the government today that are targeting specific groups of people? SM: 00:55:24 Yeah, stupid, it' ; s one word. It doesn' ; t. I mean, it doesn' ; t work. You know, in a Japanese camp, a camp, you' ; ll say that if you were married to a non Japanese, you know, if you' ; re married to a Caucasian, that person was considered to be dangerous. They were interned. How dumb is that? You know, and, and, uh, uh, it, it' ; s assimilation because of the Japanese were a, um, um, I read some, the newspapers, you know, um, I will call them like the Fox News of 19 thirties, you know, and I, I actually would News Reports but saying that: Those, goddamn Japs, you know, they' ; re not human. They can work 23 hours a day, not sleep, no white man could keep up with them. And then there' ; s, you know, that' ; s, that' ; s, that' ; s a, I would call it Fox News hysteria kind of thing, you know. Uh, um, uh, yeah. Another thing I read was saying is that the, uh, they' ; re unAmerican not one of them is American citizen. You know, not, not knowing that the Japanese people, when they apply for citizenship, couldn' ; t get citizenship but didn' ; t care. And so they demonized that, they says they' ; re all pro Tojo, pro emperor. We got to kick these guys out. So when the camps came, it was a natural progression. We, we don' ; t want these, these unpatriotic, you know, Japanese people, uh, around us, they' ; ll kill us in our sleep, all that stuff. These are articles I actually read when I was doing my research, you know, uh so a, back then I did a lot of research. AT: 00:57:08 And why is this history, why is it important to, to remember and? SM: 00:57:20 Well, for me personally, I don' ; t want the current situation to get out of hand. You know, it' ; s very easy to demonize a person. Very easy to demonize a religion, you know, my father was supposed to be at all surprised was supposed to be separated from my mother and a mother before I was born because she was considered to be a terrorist. That' ; s crazy, you know, so they make assumptions, assumptions, and they always have some, uh, some, uh, a message, person say that yeah, I heard him say something. Yeah, I read that he' ; s doing these terrible things, you know. And so, um, uh, I think, um, uh, American, Americans, can assimilate a lot of people, you know, I think every ethnic group from, from Germans to the Polish, to the Irish to the Jews to the, you know, all of all the others, the first generation, they always had a bad, you know, I read reports saying in New York: Irish not wanted. Why? Because you know how they are--they' ; ll say. All they do is beat their wives and get drunk all the time, you know. And that' ; s very easy to demonize people. That' ; s a lazy man' ; s thinking, lazy man' ; s thinking. And so, uh, uh, uh, you have to see each, each person as they are. There' ; s always exception to the rule, you know, that it' ; d be, it' ; d be a thing in every group, but the people are demonized. We' ; re always got the get the exception and make them try to make that the rule. And, and on a personal level, I try not to think that there' ; s always exceptions. AT: 00:59:09 If you could leave any kind of message or our legacy for the future generations, what kind of message would you want to leave? SM: 00:59:21 Well, I think that America is the only nation in the world that can assimilate people from other cultures. You know, we had Barack Obama as president, the only African American president. In Japan, I can' ; t imagine having a prime minister from, who' ; s Chinese or Korean. I can' ; t, it won' ; t happen there, you know, and I can' ; t imagine a, a, not a country having a person from India having a person from Pakistan being a, being a prime minister or people towards, in America it happens. It did happen. And so this is, um, I like to keep that legacy, uh, this, uh, this dream about and even if we have an group, a lot of policies with Donald Trump, you know, but he' ; s not permanent and he' ; s going to be passed on in history, uh, as well we don' ; t know yet, you know. AT: 01:00:22 As we wrap up, is there anything that you' ; d like to add or anything I missed? SM: 01:00:28 No, I think we covered everything. Um, I' ; m proud to be Japanese, I' ; m proud to be an American and I' ; m proud to have a fantastic friends. AT: 01:00:38 Thank you so much for recording. SM: 01:00:40 Oh sure. You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MukushinaSusumu20170914.xml MukushinaSusumu20170914.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Mukushina, Susumu (9/14/2017)
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2017-09-14
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Takada, Anna
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Nakamura, Anna Marie
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/22/2017 Nakamura, Anna Marie (10/22/2017) 1:15:41 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Nakamura, Anna Marie Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/303229564 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/303229564?h=78f921b5cd" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 This is an interview with Anna Marie Nakamura as part of Alphawood Galleries Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition, Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II and the Demise of Civil Liberties. Today is October 22nd, 2017 at about 1:20 PM and we are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Anna Marie Nakamura is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name? Anna M Nakamura: 00:00:40 It' ; s Anna Marie Aiko Nakamura. AT: 00:00:44 And um, can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? AMN: 00:00:51 Ah, I was born May 1st, 1924 in Los Angeles, California, um, delivered by a midwife. AT: 00:01:01 And, um, what was L.A. like at the time when you were growing up? Can you describe it a little bit? AMN: 00:01:08 Oh, well, um, it was a regular city as I recall. We lived in Boyle Heights, which is East L.A., I believe. And I kind of recall, it was a small bungalow type house. My father passed away when I was four years old and left my mom with three small children. My younger brother was two, I was four and my older brother was seven. So after he passed away, um, my dad ran a farmer supply store and upstairs there was like a, um, rooming house and my mom decided to make a living working, you know, uh, running the place. So we moved to, uh, I think it was 727 East 1st Street in Los Angeles, which was at that time like, um, they call it Little Tokyo because there were a lot of Japanese American, you know, Japanese people that lived there. And so I grew up until, I think I was 11 or 12, and I went to a, um, mission school run by the Maryknoll Nuns until ninth grade. AT: 00:02:55 So, uh, it sounds like the area where you grew up there were, you knew other Japanese American families. AMN: 00:03:06 Um, there, it was called Little Tokyo. Um, all Japanese stores, shoe stores, hotels, restaurants, dry goods, and um, I, it' ; s basically downtown Los Angeles where I grew up. And then when I was about 11 or 12, we moved to area called Boyle Heights, and it was all, it was another Japanese community, you know, and I went to, um, after Maryknoll was up to ninth grade and then I went to a Sacred Heart Academy, which is a Catholic girls high school. Um, I can' ; t remember the location, but uh, I, just when I was a senior and ready to graduate, Pearl Harbor, you know, happened and we went into camp in May and my graduation would have been in June. So I didn' ; t get to graduate with my class, we were in camp by then. And. AT: 00:04:22 Can you tell me a little bit about, um, your, your family and how they ended up in L.A. in the first place? AMN: 00:04:32 You know, my dad came from Japan with his cousin, 190--, I' ; m not sure on date. I think it was 1903 or 5, somewhere in there. Um, I don' ; t know why they moved to Los Angeles, but they both came to Los Angeles and o--, like I said, open up a farmer' ; s supply store. And, um, it' ; s my dad, my mom said my dad, uh, died from a ruptured appendix and she, you know, left her with three little children. So, uh, she ran a, like a little, a small hotel, transient hotel and over the store that my dad, you know, ran with, um, his cousin. AT: 00:05:35 So was, did his cousin continue the business? AMN: 00:05:37 He ran the store after my dad died and my mom took in boarders upstairs. Though, it was very small, I can' ; t remember how many rooms, but probably not more than 10, 12 rooms. Um, and I went to, like I said, a Catholic school run by the Maryknoll Nuns. And when I was about 11 or 12, we moved to Boyle Heights and we moved in with my uncle and his wife and they had a little boy, I think two, and a big house. And I don' ; t remember, we didn' ; t live there very long. AT: 00:06:30 At home did you, did you speak Japanese with your family? AMN: 00:06:34 Oh, to my mom, yes. But, uh, to the, uh, first generation, although my uncle spoke English. Both my uncles spoke English. And, uh, his wife was born in Hawai' ; i, so of course she spoke English. Yeah, I spoke Japanese to the, what we call, Issei, the first generation Japanese, but the rest of the, always English. AT: 00:07:02 Hmm. And what about activities outside of school? Did you go to church? AMN: 00:07:07 Belonged to the Girl Scouts. We used to play handball. Um, this school was bordered by factories and they had nice, clear walls. So we would play handball, uh, badminton. Uh, after church on Sunday, the young people always stayed after church and, uh, played badminton or, yeah, no games or socialized. AT: 00:07:36 What kind of church did your family belong to? AMN: 00:07:39 Uh, Catholic, uh, went... My cousin' ; s children were going to Catholic school and when my dad died, he told my mom, the nuns were very strict and you know, since you don' ; t have a husband anymore, and I had two brothers, uh, it would be good for the boys to have strict nuns to keep in check. And so that' ; s how I went to Maryknoll, which was in downtown, uh, near where we lived. And. AT: 00:08:18 Did you, uh, go to Japanese school? AMN: 00:08:22 After school, uh, English school, we did have Japanese classes. Um, they had, um, Japanese Catholic nuns. Um, but I hated classes, so I was not a very good student. AT: 00:08:42 Why, why did you hate classes? AMN: 00:08:44 Hm? AT: 00:08:44 Why did you hate classes? AMN: 00:08:48 I thought it was a waste of time to learn Japanese, I guess. And you know, you have enough of a school day, you want to be out playing with your friends, but it took up another hour of your day to go stay in class. So, um, I didn' ; t learn a lot. AT: 00:09:10 And um, can you tell me, uh, a little more about, um, your experience in the high school and what happened when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor? Do you remember where you were that day? AMN: 00:09:27 Oh yes. Um, we had gone to church and we were playing in the auditorium, um, when somebody came in and said that Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor and I remember thinking, what' ; s going to happen now? And we all scattered to go home. I lived in Boyle Heights. I had to take a bus from where I was and I remember going on the bus and feeling self conscious because I knew, I looked, oriental, ya know. And when we got home we all discussed about what was going to happen and uh, it was, and then going to school the next day, I remember they had an assembly and there were five of us, Japanese Americans. It was a small Catholic high school, girls high school and the principal saying she didn' ; t want any problems with any of the students and um, but it was kind of uncomfortable for a couple of days. But after that, you know, it was okay. AT: 00:10:58 And so you had, you were a senior in high school, which would mean that um, one of your brothers was also in high school. AMN: 00:11:07 My brother, um, went to the local high school. My two, two brothers went to the local high school in our neighborhood and he by then had graduated. He was working for a, uh, he went to school to study auto body fender work. So he had found a job in a garage and he was working in a garage. And of course my younger brother was still in school. AT: 00:11:42 Do you know, um, what their experiences were like? AMN: 00:11:48 Um, my brother was not in camp very long. Um, my uncle had friends that, uh, Idaho had some, uh, Japanese farmers and they were looking for workers. So my uncle asked my brother if he would like to go to work on one of the farms. And of course my brother wanted to get out of camp, so he went to work until, um, he was drafted for the army. And, AT: 00:12:22 And what about, um, Pearl Harbor? Um. AMN: 00:12:27 I' ; m trying to remember. I don' ; t remember any of, um, aside from, you know, we wondered what, what was going to happen. Um, like I said, I don' ; t have that many memories. All I know is they started, um, eventually, you know, they were talking about they were going to move us to a camp. And, um, like I said, my brother, younger brother was sophomore in high school, freshman or sophomore. Um, my older brother, uh, he was working in the garage then. So, um. AT: 00:13:19 You said that your, your family, the day of the attack of Pearl Harbor, you had a conversation... AMN: 00:13:26 You know, I, I don' ; t remember, um, anything during that time whether we talked about camp, you know, lot of rumors I suppose, but I don' ; t remember as a family. It' ; s too long ago whether we had any conversation of what was going to happen. AT: 00:13:52 And then, um, what about when the evacuation orders went out? Um. AMN: 00:13:59 Well, um, they gave us such a short time that, uh, well my, um, we didn' ; t have a father to, you know, direct us or anything. I remember my mom trying to get rid of the furniture and I think, the funny thing I remember she sold our dining room set to somebody for $5. And I remember my mom complaining that my older brother should be home helping us pack and he was out helping somebody else. But you know, outside from that, uh, all I remember is we got rid of all our furniture. And, um, our friend, my mom had a friend who owned a hotel and, uh, they said, come on, stay at the hotel until we have to evacuate. So we moved to the hotel, oh, probably two weeks before we were sent to camp. And so from this hotel, uh, they told us to gather at the Catholic Church where there were buses waiting and we went to Manzanar, because my brother had volunteered to go up and help build the camp and he liked what he saw. So, um, he was able to sign us up for Manzanar, so that' ; s how we ended up in Manzanar. AT: 00:15:49 And your older brother, was he living at home at this point or was he? AMN: 00:15:55 Um, he was living at home, but, uh, during the farming season, he lived up in Idaho. I think it was Idaho Falls. And so, um, he wasn' ; t around. And then, you know, when he was back in L.A., he worked at the garage. So. AT: 00:16:22 Um, do you remember the, the buses and how you actually got to camp? AMN: 00:16:30 Well, I remember we had to meet at the Catholic church and then we, you know, um, there were just buses. We just got on the bus. Um. AT: 00:16:45 Do you remember how long that trip was? AMN: 00:16:52 Oh, from L.A. to Manzanar, I don' ; t remember how long from L.A. to San Francisco. I think by train it was six hours. Manzanar was toward Nevada, probably six hours or so to camp, maybe longer. AT: 00:17:24 Um, I mean, given that you were a senior in high school, um, you know, with, with graduation kind of on, on the horizon, um, given that it was, you know, around the spring time, um, as a teenager, how did you feel having to make these trips? AMN: 00:17:48 Well, I was upset because I would have been graduating in June and here we were leaving in May and I miss, I was going to miss every, you know, my graduation and I' ; m scared of what was going to happen to us mostly. Um, but, you know, um, looking back, I don' ; t think, my mom, the, I, I think our parents had a rougher time than, you know, when you' ; re 17 years old, you don' ; t worry about the family, like, you know, your parents would. So, uh, like I said, it' ; s too long ago. I really, all I remember when we got to camp, it was so desolate, uh, and it, it was, you know, we didn' ; t know what was going to happen, so that' ; s about all I remember when we first saw the camp. AT: 00:19:01 Just that it was, it was desolate? AMN: 00:19:04 Oh yes. My, a desert, you know, it' ; s, it' ; s all desert and right in the middle of the desert, you see the army barracks, you know, which became our camp. But, um. AT: 00:19:19 What was the weather like? AMN: 00:19:24 Oh, um, California, dry, hot, uh, though, when we were there amazingly one winter when it snowed, I couldn' ; t believe, you know. But by midday it melted. But most of the time as hot, windy, dusty, um. The dust storms are incredible. And once they paved the street, you know, made streets and paved, uh, and uh, people planted gardens, uh, it improved a lot. It made a big difference. And then we started, uh, farming, you know, they grew tom-, well we, the camp grew their own vegetables. So it was a pretty big farm. When you have, I think there are 10,000 people in our camp. AT: 00:20:24 Did you know anyone in camp that you knew from back home? AMN: 00:20:27 Well, my cousin and his family. Um, aside from that, I don' ; t remember anybody else. My other relatives all went to Heart Mountain. So basically it was my cousin' ; s family and our, our, you know, our, four of us, my mom and my two brothers and myself. When you' ; re young, you know, you adapt a lot easier, I think than they older people did. AT: 00:21:10 And so, um, what did you do in camp? Did you return to school? AMN: 00:21:16 Oh, um, they assign jobs and so I was assigned as a nurse' ; s aid at the camp hospital in the children' ; s ward. And I don' ; t remember how long I was there. I caught German Measles from one of the patients and I was so sick, you know, when an adult catches measles. So after I recovered, they made me a receptionist at the hospital. So I took the, that was my job until I left camp. AT: 00:21:55 Um, what' ; d you, do you remember how long you were sick? Did you stay at home in the barracks or did you stay at the hospital? AMN: 00:22:05 Oh, I was in the hospital. Um, no, I don' ; t know. Uh, I don' ; t know how long I stayed in the hospital, but, um, I was in the children' ; s ward because it' ; s a children' ; s disease, you know, the, uh, they had a separate part of the, uh, barracks for the contagious disease ward, they call it. And I was there until I got over my measles. AT: 00:22:36 Do you remember how you got that job? Did you have to apply or did you know someone? AMN: 00:22:41 I don' ; t remember. Um, I think they assigned us to different jobs, but I' ; m not quite sure. AT: 00:22:57 And how long was your family in, in Manzanar? AMN: 00:23:02 Two and a half years. ' ; 42, ' ; 43, I think came back, I think it was two and a half years I was in camp. I got married in camp and... AT: 00:23:28 Tell me more about that? Can you tell me more about getting married in camp? AMN: 00:23:31 Well, when we were, um, we closed up our house and moved to the hotel, my husband was a night clerk there, going to college and that' ; s how we met. He asked me out on a date and I remember my mom was very unhappy because I was only 17 and he was 24 or something, so he would, we couldn' ; t go out unless my brother came along as a chaperone. AT: 00:24:13 Your older brother? AMN: 00:24:14 My younger brother, which he hated. So we never went out on a date by ourselves. And, and then, um, we got married in camp. AT: 00:24:27 So he was also at Manzanar? AMN: 00:24:30 Yes. Um, luckily, yeah, he was assigned to Manzanar. So we were in the same camp. AT: 00:24:41 And at what point did you get, at what point did you decide to get married? AMN: 00:24:47 Oh, gosh. I don' ; t know. We never, um. AT: 00:24:53 Or when did you get married? AMN: 00:24:57 February 28, 1944? Yeah, it was, I remember it was a leap year, so I don' ; t know whether it was the 28th or the 29th. AT: 00:25:16 And um, was there some kind of process? Did you have to fill out paperwork or how did that work to get married in camp? AMN: 00:25:25 Uh, yeah, we had to go get it from the County C Bishop. Uh, I don' ; t remember. All I remember is that the certificate was the county of Inyo County, Bishop, California, because I had to get a copy and I had to write to the county to get a copy. Um, I really don' ; t know who made the arrangements. Uh, probably the priest at the church guided us because, you know, he hadn' ; t, they had a lot of weddings. But like I said, it' ; s too long ago. I really don' ; t remember. AT: 00:26:20 Do you remember other folks getting married in camp? Was that pretty common or? AMN: 00:26:26 What? AT: 00:26:26 Do you remember other people getting married in camp? Was that common? AMN: 00:26:30 Oh yeah, there, they had a Buddhist church, a Christian church, Catholic church. Um, it' ; s uh, you know, 10,000, lot a people. It' ; s a lot of marriages, I' ; m sure. AT: 00:26:52 Um, yeah, getting requested to stop [filming stops]. AMN: 00:26:57 And, um, because in Japan you don' ; t marry for love, a family, they go into your family background to see if there' ; s anybody that had mental problems because they won' ; t let you. And there were certain, uh, cast, um, type of people. Uh, there was one who are butchers. They won' ; t let you marry into a family that are butchers because it' ; s really low class. So when you want to get married, they get, they call it a baishakuni. It was just a go-between. And their job is to go into the backgrounds of both families to make sure it' ; s the right arrangement, you know: both family have the same background and there' ; s nothing bad in the background. So that' ; s how we had a baishakuni. Um, it was not, in the first, uh, what we call the first generation Japanese, our parents, uh, never married for love. It was always an arranged marriage and that was the baishakuni, the go-between. AT: 00:28:08 And so who, that was, uh, an individual doing that? And they did that for? AMN: 00:28:14 Uh, it was, just a token thing. You know, uh, we didn' ; t think it was necessary, but, uh, um, my mom said it was the proper thing to have a go-between. So at the wedding, you know, um, my husband' ; s family was in Japan. He was here with his brother. So, um, uh, we had another couple friend who, uh, took his parents' ; place and then we had the go-between. And so in the wedding picture, there' ; s the whole group. AT: 00:28:56 So you were able to have a, a photograph of the, the wedding. AMN: 00:29:02 Oh, we had a regular church wedding. And like I said, we had two cakes. The camp made us a wedding cake. And, uh, I don' ; t know who had ordered a cake from Los Angeles. They shipped it and arrived the day before the wedding. So we had two wedding cakes, which was very nice. Everybody had a lot of a cake. AT: 00:29:30 Do you know who ordered that? AMN: 00:29:32 I have, it' ; s too long ago. I don' ; t remember who ordered it. And of course, no honeymoon. There was, we just got a new, uh, they assigned us a new room in one of the barracks and so we just moved in there and um, during I think the next fall when my husband went out to Utah to work on the farms, um, I went to work in a tomato cannery canning tomatoes just to go see him out there. And that was our honeymoon I think in Salt Lake City for two days that we got together. But that was fun. AT: 00:30:32 What kind of farm was he working on? Do you know? AMN: 00:30:34 Potatoes, picking potatoes, Idaho, you know Idaho potatoes? [Laughs] And, uh, Utah had a big tomato, uh, farms and they can lots of tomatoes. I didn' ; t want to eat tomatoes for a while after I got back to camp [chuckles]. AT: 00:30:55 How long were you out of camp? AMN: 00:30:58 Ah, two weeks. I think it was two weeks to Kenalog [Kenalog?] at that particular cannery. It' ; s seasonal, well, you know, tomato, do you have to do it really fast because it doesn' ; t keep, and so, but it was fun. It was great to get out of camp and, uh, be outside like we used to say. AT: 00:31:27 And your husband, um, was he, uh, working on the potato farm for longer than? AMN: 00:31:33 Oh yeah. Um, gosh, I don' ; t know how many weeks they would work out there, but they would go work different farms. They' ; d, once they' ; d finish one farm, so they, he worked at several farms in Idaho. AT: 00:31:52 And then can you tell me about, um, so you said your family was in Manzanar for probably about two and a half years. Um, what, what happened then after two and a half years? AMN: 00:32:09 Oh. Um, my husband had a friend who had gone to Chicago and he wrote and said that there were jobs available in Chicago, so why don' ; t we come and he would find a place for us to live. So then we decided we' ; ll go to Chicago because you don' ; t know how long the war is gonna last. And we didn' ; t want to be staying in camp, you know, so that' ; s how we got to Chicago. AT: 00:32:37 So it was just you and your husband? AMN: 00:32:41 Mhm. And then, um, when they were ready, getting ready to close the camp, uh, we told my mom and my younger brother who was still in camp to come and join us. So they came to Chicago and joined us in Chicago. In the meantime, my brother had been drafted, so he was in Europe. AT: 00:33:07 This was your older brother? AMN: 00:33:13 Mhm. AT: 00:33:13 And um, so you and your husband came to Chicago first. Um, where did you end up living in the city? AMN: 00:33:23 Oh, when we first came to Chicago. Oh, this room, my husband' ; s friend found us this room on the North Side. Oh, Gosh. Lawrence, Lawrence Avenue. Anyway, we walked into that room and it was full of bed bugs, so we couldn' ; t stay there. So I think we probably stayed at some hotel the first night. I don' ; t remember how long until we found another apartment and I think it was on the North Side to Winthrop. I remember the street, I don' ; t remember the address. And we lived there, oh gosh. Can' ; t remember how long we lived there. And then we moved down to... [turns to another person in the room] Hey Gayle, do you remember when, when we lived in Hampden Court, was it, how old were you? Gayle: 00:34:43 I think I was still a baby. You didn' ; t live on Winthrop that long. I' ; m sorry. AT: 00:34:53 No, please. AMN: 00:34:54 No, [speaker thinking aloud] G: 00:34:54 You didn' ; t live on Winthrop that long. AMN: 00:34:56 I think right after you were born, G: 00:34:57 Right. AMN: 00:34:58 we moved to Chi-- to, uh, Hampden Court. That was, G: 00:35:05 That would be early 1946. AMN: 00:35:10 Yeah, because you were born in 45. G: 00:35:12 Yeah. AT: 00:35:15 Sorry. G: 00:35:16 That would have been bad. [laughter about potential accident out of camera view] AT: 00:35:20 Um, so, sorry. Just to clarify, so Gail was born in ' ; 46. AMN: 00:35:26 ' ; 45. AT: 00:35:26 ' ; 45. Um, and you said that was when you moved, um, to Hampden Court, is that right? G: 00:35:38 Um, I was born in August of ' ; 45 and then they moved in ' ; 46, maybe beginning of ' ; 46 you think? AMN: 00:35:47 Oh, to Hampden Court. Yeah. And I' ; m trying to remember when we moved to Diversey. G: 00:35:57 Oh, I was 10 years old. AMN: 00:35:58 Oh, so, uh, ' ; 55. G: 00:36:02 Yeah. But you should describe Hampton Court ' ; cause that was a fairly, um, that was a Japanese... AMN: 00:36:11 Oh, it was, uh, quite a, how many room apartment do you think that were there? Two, four, six, eight, ten. G: 00:36:20 Well it was almost the whole block was Japanese. AMN: 00:36:21 12. G: 00:36:23 Well, you mean in Hampton Court? AMN: 00:36:29 Two on each floor. Apartment two, four, six, eight, two, four, six, eight, ten. G: 00:36:36 So maybe 16 to 20 apartments. AMN: 00:36:39 Not 20. G: 00:36:40 There weren' ; t any in the middle? AMN: 00:36:41 No. There was one apartment at the end of the hall there. G: 00:36:46 Yeah. AMN: 00:36:47 So two, four, six, eight, ten... G: 00:36:50 Describe them to Anna. AMN: 00:36:50 13, maybe 13 apartments. Understand it was a Jewish, something for the Jewish community, and they had made into apartments, I guess used to be an office or something. But anyway, my mom' ; s friend bought that building and asked my mom if we' ; d like to move there. So that' ; s when we moved to, uh, Hampden Court in Chicago. AT: 00:37:22 This was an Issei friend, had bought it? AMN: 00:37:26 So it was right after Gail was born. G: 00:37:30 Oh, she couldn' ; t hear you. Mom? AMN: 00:37:33 Mm. G: 00:37:33 She said it was, so it was an Issei? AMN: 00:37:35 Hm? G: 00:37:35 Your mom' ; s friend was an Issei, is that what you meant? AMN: 00:37:39 Yeah. G: 00:37:40 Yeah. She, it was an Issei who bought the Hampden building. AMN: 00:37:44 She, she and her husband bought the building. And, uh, so asked my mom if we wanted to move there. So that' ; s why we moved to Hamden Court, Obuchi' ; s. AT: 00:37:56 So then did you live there with your husband, your mom and your brother? AMN: 00:38:00 Yes, my mom and my brother rented another apartment. Uh, I think it was on floor below us. Yeah. And we lived there, oh goodness. You said you were 10 when we moved to Hanamoto, Gail? AT: 00:38:26 Yeah, she said it was 10 years. So in ' ; 55, about. AMN: 00:38:32 Yeah, we moved to Hanamoto on Diversey. AT: 00:38:36 And um, what was that, that area or that neighborhood like when you were living there? AMN: 00:38:44 Oh! It was, um, typical Chicago neighborhood. Very nice. You know, it' ; s a Lake View area, a great location because we were close to, um, Clark and Diversey where you have all the stores and everything. There was a department store at that time and Walgreens, you know, but it was really a good neighborhood. AT: 00:39:14 Uh, were there, do you remember any Japanese American businesses or stores? AMN: 00:39:19 You know, most of the Japanese Americans settle around Division and Broadway and Clark. Was it Clark? AT: 00:39:28 Clark and Division? AMN: 00:39:30 Yeah, on Division. Um, they had, um, uh, restaurants. Um, like I said, it was, there were quite a few that lived right in that area. Where we were living on the North Side, no. Um, I think there were more people from Vietnam later on, but, um, there was another fam, Japanese family, lived on the next block, but I think we were the only one in that area that were, you know, Japanese ancestry. AT: 00:40:23 And what, um, what were you and your husband doing for work when you moved here? AMN: 00:40:31 Gosh, you know, I worked for the War Labor Board until I had her and I didn' ; t go back to work until my youngest daughter was born 18 years later. Um, then I went to work in my company where my husband worked in a office. Ah, I, you know what I used to do? I used to, um, uh, type envelopes. There was a company that, uh, I think it' ; s a marketing company, that need typists, today they don' ; t have such thing, but to type addresses. And you had to go pick up, and I think, I used to pick up, boy, 2000 full boxes. I think there were 200, and I would type at home. AT: 00:41:38 And, uh, your husband, what kind of work was he doing when you first came to Chicago? AMN: 00:41:46 The first job he had was a janitor at, uh, a surgical implement manufacturing. I still remember, [Ditsuken?] shoveling snow off the sidewalk ,and that was his first job. And then he got a job at this, uh, uh, company that, uh, uh, sold, uh, plywood, plywood lumber, and had, um, mail room, you know, they fabricated things and he went to work there and he worked there for, whoa, how many years, Gail? 34? Well, he spent the rest of his...oh no, I take it back. When did dad work at Northwestern? G: 00:42:55 When you first got here. That was the job he had. AMN: 00:42:59 Oh, after he shoveled the snow. Oh, that' ; s right. Uh, he got. Uh, Northwestern was looking for, uh, Japanese language teachers to teach American officers Japanese when the war was over. So they recruited my husband. So he worked at Northwestern University teaching Japanese to army officers until the war ended. I think. I don' ; t, I don' ; t remember how long after that. And after that he went to work at Maywood. G: 00:43:38 National Tea. AMN: 00:43:40 Where? G: 00:43:40 He worked at National Tea, I thought, as a butcher? AMN: 00:43:44 Oh no, as a night supervisor. G: 00:43:48 Clubs. AMN: 00:43:50 What' ; s it after? AT: 00:43:51 No butchers in the family. G: 00:43:52 No best friend, no butchers in the family. [laughter] AMN: 00:43:55 Oh, that' ; s right. That was not for long though. G: 00:43:59 Oh. AMN: 00:44:00 It was a night job. That' ; s right. He was a, he-- G: 00:44:04 He was fired, as I recall, wasn' ; t he? AMN: 00:44:08 Oh yeah. The night worker that collected all the meat orders, they were stealing meat. My husband didn' ; t even know it, but the company said that since he was a supervisor, uh, they had to fire him. So that' ; s how he lost that job. And then he went to work at Maywood. That' ; s right. I completely forgot. G: 00:44:35 Didn' ; t he work at Jefferson Ice? Jefferson. AT: 00:44:39 Jefferson Ice? G: 00:44:39 Jefferson Ice? AMN: 00:44:42 Hm? G: 00:44:42 He worked at Jefferson Ice? AMN: 00:44:46 No, he worked putting ice in railroad cars, refrigerator cars one summer between jobs. He lost 50 pounds. That was the best job he ever had [laughs], because he was quite heavy. G: 00:45:06 He ate 10 bowls of rice a night for dinner. AT: 00:45:08 Oh. G: 00:45:08 And used to buy it 100 pound bags. AMN: 00:45:14 Oh, I had forgotten about that. AT: 00:45:16 Where did you buy your rice and, and groceries from? AMN: 00:45:21 Oh, uh, Star Market on Division. Was It on Division? Clark Street. Clark Street. G: 00:45:32 Yeah. By Wrigley Field. AMN: 00:45:34 Yeah. They had a Japanese food store where they sold Japanese food. So we would go there to buy rice and whatever we needed. G: 00:45:48 Grandma, remember grandma worked at Curtis Candies. Another Speaker: 00:45:52 Oh yeah. AMN: 00:45:53 Oh my gra-- my mom. My mom worked at Curtis Candy and at Christmas, um, the company would give all their employees a huge box of their goodies and the kids couldn' ; t wait for Christmas because they would get this big box of candy. AT: 00:46:15 What did she do at the, at Curtis Candy? AMN: 00:46:18 I think she worked on the line. Uh, I don' ; t know whether she was a wrapper or whatever. All I remember is, uh, Christmas and the kids. They tried to unionize the company, but the company was so good to the workers that they couldn' ; t get it to join the union. And then they moved to, Curtis moved to the suburbs somewhere so she had to quit. AT: 00:46:58 Do you remember, um, some of your first or early impressions of Chicago? I imagine it was probably your first time ever coming to Chicago? AMN: 00:47:08 Oh yeah. Our first impression, it was cold and we had summer clothes on. So the first thing we had to do is buy some winter clothes. So I remember we went to Rothschild. Now, I don' ; t know how we ended up in Rothschild instead of Sears Roebuck [laughs], but we went in there to buy some winter clothes. That was my first impression of Chicago. It was a week, it was December, I think we came in December, and it was cold. And we looked, um, I remember we were standing, um, State and um, gee, First National Bank. Adams? Was the, uh, the big main bank, I think it was on it Ad--. Anyway, we were standing on a corner corner with our summer clothes on and some man came up then and said, you look like strangers, can I help you? And we said, " ; We' ; re looking for our bank." ; And he said, " ; Oh, First National Bank is right down the street" ; So we went down and opened up our account and then we went looking for winter clothes. That' ; s how out of place we must have looked [laughs]. AT: 00:48:28 And what about as far as, um, just general neighborhoods and the city itself? How did it compare to what, um, where you came from? AMN: 00:48:43 From L.A. You know, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think we even thought about any difference or how big it was or anything. I think we were concentrating on getting settled finding a place to live and getting a job more than anything than what kind of a place. You know, aside from being cold, and I' ; m not used to the cold because I grew up in Southern California, I don' ; t remember having much of an impression of Chicago, by much. We were too busy getting going, I think. AT: 00:49:20 Were there, did you experience any challenges when you first came here besides needing to find winter clothing? AMN: 00:49:28 No, I don' ; t think so. Um, I don' ; t even remember. All I know is I got a job at the War Labor Board and I had to get a physical to go work there. It was a government requirement. So I went to the doctor to get a physical and she said, do you know you' ; re pregnant? I said, no. And that was December and you were born in August. So I didn' ; t work very long. I, I can' ; t remember when I quit working. May, I might' ; ve worked to May. And after that I stayed home until, well, like I said, I used to get typing work at, brought it home and I would, you know, type envelopes at home, but I didn' ; t go out to work, oh, for many years. AT: 00:50:46 And so from, uh, Lake View and Hampden Court, uh, you moved, uh, down to Clark and Diversey? AMN: 00:50:57 No, we... Yeah. Um, there was a couple that bought this building, two flat on Diversey and asked if we would like to move in the second floor. So that' ; s how we went to live in Diversey. And we were there for seven years? G: 00:51:22 No, I would say AMN: 00:51:23 Uh, Joan... Kathy was born there in ' ; 55. G: 00:51:30 We moved to Highland Park in ' ; 64. AMN: 00:51:33 We moved to Highland Park in ' ; 64. Yeah, the year Joany was born. Well, that' ; s about 10 years. AT: 00:51:41 How many children do you have? AMN: 00:51:47 I had three sets of family. Gail and Claire are 18 months apart. Then I didn' ; t have any babies until my son was born six years later. And then I had my son Guy. Two years later I had Cassie, and then I didn' ; t have any kids, how many years between Ca--, 10? G: 00:52:13 Nine. AMN: 00:52:14 Nine between Kathy and my youngest, Joan, I was 40 when I had Joan. So there' ; s 18 years. She was a freshman at U of I when I had my youngest and I was carrying a baby at my daughter' ; s wedding. I think Joan was two years, two years when Claire got married, which was the funniest thing if you ever thought about it. The father, the mother of the bride carrying a baby. Right? AS: 00:52:47 Yeah. AT: 00:52:50 And um, so just to take it back a little bit, um, uh, Clark and Diversey, is that, but is that still considered Lake View, so you' ; re just on a different side of the neighborhood? I think nowadays. AS: 00:53:09 Yeah. Yeah. I mean we lived closer to Halsted, Center on Halsted. AMN: 00:53:26 It was a nice neighborhood. AS: 00:53:27 Diversey was like a mile away from Hampden Court. So it wasn' ; t like that far away from where you, when you lived on Hampden Court. AMN: 00:53:39 Yeah, it' ; s about the same. It' ; s a Chicago neighborhood. It was, yeah. No, it' ; s a nice neighborhood to grow up in. Of course Diversey was commercial. We were right on Diversey, which is, you know, shops and everything. But um, typical Chicago neighborhood. AT: 00:54:02 Were you, were there other Japanese American families in the neighborhood? AMN: 00:54:06 Um, not around where Chicago, where Diversey... Little bit west, I think there were some Japanese, um, where Claire used to live, AS: 00:54:23 Well, AMN: 00:54:25 Barry. AS: 00:54:27 they weren' ; t as concentrated on Japanese because Waller was a lot of Japanese and then were removed like... There were still Japanese and then Senn, around Senn High School, the Japanese community. Right. Because that' ; s kind of where Lake View High School, I mean that' ; s what I kind of remember... AMN: 00:54:49 Yeah. AS: 00:54:50 Quarter Japanese people. AMN: 00:54:52 Yeah, where the Shintani' ; s lived. There, there were a Japanese families that lived on right around that area, around Lake View High School. There was time to scatter, you know. At, at first they kind of congregated in that Division and Clark and then slowly they all moved further and further. People moved to the suburbs and, but I think there' ; s still a core of Japanese around Clark and Division. I don' ; t know. I haven' ; t been around. AS: 00:55:33 We used to support like the Buddhist temple. I don' ; t know. Did you talk to anyone about, is there still a kind of critical mass of Japanese around the Buddhist temples still? AT: 00:55:53 Um, yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t really think so. I think everybody' ; s kind of AS: 00:55:59 Just scattered, yeah. AT: 00:56:00 all over the place. Um. AS: 00:56:04 ' ; Cause I think the Buddhist temple, the North Side. AMN: 00:56:07 Oh, around AS: 00:56:09 Argyle AMN: 00:56:10 around the Menominee. AS: 00:56:14 Yeah, the priest, I don' ; t think is Japanese. AMN: 00:56:19 There isn' ; t around Menominee anymore. They used to have this, uh, Ginza festival. AT: 00:56:27 That' ; s MBT. That' ; s still there. And Speaker 1: 00:56:29 Ah, well I, like I said, we don' ; t go into Chicago anymore, so I have, when we want Japanese food, we go to Mitsuwa in... AT: 00:56:39 Arlington Heights. [group laughter] And, uh, when, uh, when you were at, um, Clark and Diversey, so before moving out to the suburbs, did you, did you raise your children Catholic or did you, did you go to church or anything like that? AMN: 00:57:01 Oh yeah. You know, the kids went to Saint Clement School, so, I was in the PTA, you know, fundraisers. Yeah. Pretty active in the church activities then. AT: 00:57:21 And um, did you send them to Japanese school or did you speak Japanese with them? AMN: 00:57:31 [shakes head] I didn' ; t think it was necessary. In a way it would have been good. You could have worked as an interpreter [laughter in room], but you probably didn' ; t want to. You would have hated to go to school after school. Anyway. AS: 00:57:51 I think that we were told, or my recollection is, is wanted us to be able to assimilate into the American culture and therefore we didn' ; t speak Japanese at home, even though Grandma was still living with us. At face, tried to speak English, and of course we went to Catholic school. AMN: 00:58:15 Yeah. AT: 00:58:18 Does that sound familiar? AMN: 00:58:23 I, I, I guess I didn' ; t think it was necessary for the kids to learn Japanese. Used to talk a little bit with grandma. Children maybe talk, um, Japanese, you know, they have the way the children talk and the way the adults talk on top of that, it' ; s different from our county. They call it, if you go to one county, like, um, our family Hiroshima and you meet somebody from another, you wouldn' ; t understand them because the dialect would be so different. But they' ; re all Japanese. And, uh, like I said, I didn' ; t think it was necessary and they probably wouldn' ; t want to go to school. Japanese school anyway, after school. AS: 00:59:17 I don' ; t-- AT: 00:59:20 Um. AS: 00:59:20 Go ahead. AT: 00:59:20 Are you sure? AS: 00:59:22 Well, I was gonna say what about Tri-C? Tri-C, did they go to language school? AMN: 00:59:32 I don' ; t think so. AS: 00:59:34 Tri-C was a congregational church on the near North Side. You know about it? Ok. AMN: 00:59:38 The Buddhists, the people that went to the Buddhist church were more, uh, likely to keep learning the Japanese language than, um, the Christian churches, you know, because it' ; s, it' ; s the religion of Japan. The Buddhists. So I think if you were a Buddhist or, if you went to Buddhist church, you went to language school. AT: 01:00:13 Can you tell me a little bit about your decision to move to Highland Park and out of the city? AMN: 01:00:22 Well, my brother always lived, my mom and my brother always lived, uh, next to us and he worked for a company that moved to Waukegan. So he started commuting or he found a room to rent in Waukegan. He would come home weekends with his dirty laundry, you know, family dinner. And so we thought if he want to be together, um, I think we decided to see if we could find a place mid-ways. So that' ; s why we decided to, um, uh, the man that my husband worked for had a real estate agent. His aunt was a real estate. And so why don' ; t you move into around Highland Park? That would be midway. And so that' ; s how we moved to Highland Park. So my brother, you know, could sort of commute and my husband would take the train to work. He wouldn' ; t have to drive. AT: 01:01:42 And so your mother went out to Highland Park as well? AMN: 01:01:46 Yes. AT: 01:01:48 And. AS: 01:01:49 Grandma had passed away by the time you moved.Grandma passed away when we were on Diversey. AMN: 01:01:55 Oh, that' ; s right. She, she died the year Kathy was born. Right, 1955, so she was gone. So it was just Uncle Frank. AT: 01:02:06 And how did, how did life in Highland Park compare to Lake View? AMN: 01:02:13 Oh, well it' ; s the suburbs. It was very nice. We, we had real nice neighbors. You know, the interesting thing was the real estate agent went to a neighbor that would be my next door neighbor to ask her if it was okay if, you know, Japanese Americans moved next door to her, which today, you know, you wouldn' ; t even do that. But she was wonderful. The Fruman' ; s were great neighbors. So, um, the whole neighborhood, and it was great because there were a lot of little kids, eh, for my kids to play with, you know, and it, good school. Alcott School is a wonderful school. And she was, you know, they were gone [indicating others in the room]. She, and Claire were. AS: 01:03:12 Okay. Well. Okay, so here' ; s the story again, that it was also around the time Joany was born, the youngest, and I think they thought the city was getting a little bit too inner city for her to grow up in. And so part of the impetus besides Uncle Frank working in Waukegan was, you also had a baby, another little kid. And so the move was both to take her into a AMN: 01:03:40 Suburban environment. AS: 01:03:42 place, environment and for Uncle Frank. AMN: 01:03:46 And you know, Highland Park had really good schools. Or the reputation was really good at that time. So, um, we, we found a inexpensive part of Highland Park right at the entrance of Ravinia Park. Perfect. It was really nice. AS: 01:04:06 And there was still, interestingly enough, on the North Shore, some prejudice, which is why they asked the neighbors about having the Japanese family, but there were still some groups that really did not want Japanese people in there. AMN: 01:04:23 Glencoe. And my cousin too, Ron and Edy, when they moved to Lake Forest, they had to, trouble looking for a house. There was still prejudice, you know. AT: 01:04:39 Had you tried looking at Glencoe? Is that how you know? AMN: 01:04:43 No, I lived in Highland Park, which was a great neighbor--. Our neighbors were really great. Lot of little kids for mine to, you know, uh, play with, uh, like I said, it was the, um, low income part of Highland Park. If you go east along the lake is where all the big mansions, but right by the entrance to Ravinia Park, there were a lot of um, you know, modest homes. Um, a lot of kids a great place. It was really great. Neighbors were all wonderful. We had really great neighbors. AS: 01:05:22 I don' ; t think she heard you. AT: 01:05:27 Um, my, my question was, um, so you said that there was some prejudice in, around Glencoe. How, how did you know about that? AMN: 01:05:39 Um, my cousin was trying to buy a house on the North Shore and, um, we, they were talking about, you know, they would go, uh, I think they, they had to ask the neighbors if they would accept, you know, uh, because you don' ; t want to move into a neighborhood where there' ; s prejudice, you know, and there were rumors going around. Uh, like I said, it' ; s so long ago. I don' ; t remember all the details. AS: 01:06:21 And I think the realtor also helped steer the... AMN: 01:06:25 Yeah. Uh, I don' ; t know if they do it today, but they would go around asking, How do you feel about, you know, um, African Americans living next door to you or, um, but in those days they did ask. AT: 01:06:43 And, um, in Highland Park, did you experience any prejudice? AMN: 01:06:47 No, never. I think I asked my daughter and she, somebody asked her at junior high school, are you Chinese or Japanese? Then until then, she never even thought she was any different, which I thought was kind of interesting, you know, so I guess they never treated her any different. AS: 01:07:25 So for timing, this is late ' ; 60s so, or no, not even late. It was ' ; 65? Yeah, ' ; 64, ' ; 65. AMN: 01:07:40 I know when we first moved, Guy had, was in junior high school and he would wake up in the morning saying he had a tummy ache. And so the um, assistant principal came over, uh, we discussed it and we found out that, uh, he felt, he came in the middle of the school year. He hadn' ; t, didn' ; t have any friends, so he felt, felt very lonely. So the assistant principal found him a friend, Glenn [O' ; Rian?] and that did it. You know, little problems like that to adjust, like I said. And I didn' ; t drive., and I used to walk my son to junior high school until he got, he knew the neighborhood. Uh, I was afraid he' ; d get lost, you know, because, um, we didn' ; t have bus service unless you lived more than a mile away from the school. So I used to walk him to school and pick him up. I remember one day, it was a real bad day. The assistant principal saw me pushing the buggy to school and he picked up Guy and said, " ; I' ; ll take him," ; which was very nice. AT: 01:09:09 And uh, how long were you in Highland Park? AMN: 01:09:12 34 years? I think we decided that, I sold the house and moved to a condo in Deerfield and I lived there for 12 years before I moved to Lincolnwood. It was about 12 years. Nice place. Deerfield' ; s a nice place to live. Northbrook, where my daughter lives at, a real nice place to live, to bring up the kids, to good schools, nice, nice neighborhood. I feel very lucky. I had a good life. Ups and downs, experienced a lot, traveled. I think I' ; m living too long. [laughter] AT: 01:10:09 And um, if you could leave some kind of message or legacy with, with your children and maybe grandchildren, what would you want them to have or to know? New Speaker: 01:10:25 Oh my gosh. To, um, good or bad, um, adjust to everything, you know. Um, don' ; t be bitter. Don' ; t be, uh, regret. Um, just I think accepting life, what life hands you and living the best as you can. And uh, friends and family are so important. So have good friends. And luckily my kids all get along very good because I seen some siblings that really fight a lot. So that would be it. You know, that my kids stay close together and they have wonderful friends. So I think that' ; s important. Have close siblings, good neighbors, good friends and you know, they help you through good times and bad times. You have a lot of good times. We love, we love our get togethers and I think we' ; re lucky. We had the core of five families that, um, got along so well. We were like one big family. We picnic together, holidays together. Um, we were very lucky. We had the Hanamoto' ; s and the Shintani' ; s and... AS: 01:12:08 And you didn' ; t go into that about Hampden Court because that' ; s where it started. AMN: 01:12:12 Yeah. We became friends. AS: 01:12:16 With the people who lived there. AMN: 01:12:18 Who lived there and we remain, the families did everything together, picnics, holidays, the kids' ; birthdays. Um, it' ; s been great. It' ; s been really wonderful life. AT: 01:12:35 Was that something that was important to you to, um, be close with other Japanese American families? AMN: 01:12:46 I don' ; t know. What do you think? AS: 01:12:49 Um, I think it was... AMN: 01:12:51 I think we all found... AS: 01:12:53 Probably helped because you had a common background, a shared background, but I just think it was more of compatibility. AMN: 01:13:03 Yeah. AS: 01:13:04 What made it important is they just happened to be really compatible. AMN: 01:13:08 The five families somehow, um, the kids who are great together ; they all played so well together. Uh, luckily, mostly girls. Was Richard the only, Guy and Richie, were the only boys, right? But the rest, the girls got along so well and, and today even, they' ; re very close. So yeah. Um, I was talking to a psych, I was, I had kind of a nervous breakdown at one time and I was talking to this psychiatrist and she said, " ; Tell me about your life." ; When I described our group, she said, " ; You' ; re very lucky to have five families that are so cohesive." ; You know, the kids are so great together. And I said, " ; Yeah, I think so." ; Not Too many people experience what we had. Right? I think so. I think it' ; s been, uh, and they' ; re still so close, the the whole group. AT: 01:14:24 And uh, as, as we wrap up here, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed in this conversation? AMN: 01:14:33 Ah, I don' ; t know. Pretty much, what do I want to say. Like I say, I hope the children continue to be good friends. Close friends. Take care of each other because they don' ; t have grandchildren. So they, they, no, they don' ; t, they. I mean, that' ; s okay. That' ; s the decision. But they' ; ve got to take care of each other now because that group didn' ; t want children, which is okay. It' ; s their choice. But now you have to take care of each other. AS: 01:15:16 We' ; re looking into it now, grown-ups. [laughter] AT: 01:15:22 Well, thank you so much again for coming in and speaking with us. AMN: 01:15:27 Well, like I said, it' ; s been a long time to go back and forgot a lot of things, I guess, but that' ; s all right. I' ; ve had a good life. AT: 01:15:38 Thank you. AMN: 01:15:39 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NakamuraAnnaMarie20171022.xml NakamuraAnnaMarie20171022.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Nakamura, Anna Marie (10/22/2017)
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Japanese Americans--History.
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Lincoln, Emma Saito
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Nakamura, Tom Kazumi
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Nisei
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Chicago Resettlers Committee
Moody Bible Church
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5.4 3/16/2021 Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021) 1:20:57 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949 Nisei Amache Navy LaSalle Photo Yuba City Chicago Resettlers Committee Moody Bible Church Nakamura, Tom Kazumi Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|19(12)|26(11)|34(8)|43(7)|50(12)|59(12)|68(13)|78(3)|86(14)|96(8)|106(8)|114(16)|123(7)|133(16)|143(7)|153(9)|163(4)|173(10)|184(3)|194(9)|203(5)|212(1)|230(11)|241(9)|262(6)|270(3)|280(10)|303(7)|313(13)|324(11)|338(6)|348(4)|355(15)|365(4)|377(6)|386(12)|396(9)|405(10)|415(15)|428(3)|437(9)|447(11)|464(3)|474(1)|483(15)|494(7)|507(12)|515(14)|525(2)|532(2)|542(4)|549(12)|558(8)|574(2)|585(1)|599(3)|608(11)|623(5)|631(4)|638(2)|645(4)|658(1)|666(13)|675(7)|686(2)|694(5)|704(6)|717(12)|730(11)|741(8)|753(14)|764(16)|776(13)|786(10)|796(1)|808(6)|818(5)|826(2)|833(14)|850(5) 0 https://vimeo.com/553146996/e8e8f217b6 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553146996" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Tom Kazumi Nakamura was born in Marysville, California in 1928. Growing up on a peach farm, Tom attended a small school in rural northern California along with his siblings. At the age of 14, Tom and his family were forced to sell their possessions and take only what they could carry as they were sent to “camp” by the US Government, via Executive Order 9066. After being taken to the Merced assembly center, Tom and his family were incarcerated in Amache. After the war, Tom enlisted in the Navy, training in naval photography. This translated to his work later on, as after discharge he moved back to California, and planned to make his way to New York to attend photography school paid by the GI bill, taking small jobs along the way. Instead, he met an old friend from camp in Chicago, William Yamamoto, and the two of them took LaSalle Photo, a small photo developing shop, and grew it into a company that at its peak employed hundreds of nisei and other individuals in the Chicagoland area. Tom shares memories of meeting his wife, Patsy, and their first date, as well as stories of his family, and his relationship with religion. One of his grandchildren, Cori Lin, joins him in this interview. Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): So today is March 16th, 2021, and this oral history interview is being recorded remotely due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln of the JASC Legacy Center, and the interviewee is Tom Kazumi Nakamura. Also participating in the interview is Tom' ; s granddaughter, Cori Lin. This interview is being recorded by the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Shall we begin? Tom Kazumi Nakamura (TN): Let' ; s begin. EL: So Tom we' ; re going to start with some basic biographical details just for context, okay? TN: Alright. EL: And if you wouldn' ; t mind stating your full name please, that' ; s a good place to start. TN: My name is Tom Kazumi Nakamura, I was born on August 25th, 1928, makes me about 92 years old and climbing. And I was born in a hospital in Marysville, California and because that was in the, in the 20s, that was at end of the depression, and they only had one major hospital. But the rest of my life, I was born--raised in the next town called Yuba City, California which was a farming community, mostly fruits and a few truck farming, but mostly fruit farming. Peaches, prunes, pears, apples, and etcetera. And I was raised on a peach farm, and this goes back to a town near Yuba City called Tudor, California. A little town with a, maybe a mercantile store, and a barber shop, and a few others. I remember a shoe, shoe repair shop but it was one of those stops as you go along Hwy 20 going towards Sacramento. And well I--I can' ; t remember, probably from about 6, 7 years old I was mainly speaking Japanese, I didn' ; t know too much English except for speaking to my brothers and sisters, they spoke English, but I spoke mainly to my mother and my father. So I was speaking, I was raised speaking Japanese. And then when I went to elementary school, then of course I was kind of forced to speak English so, so English became my primary language, but I still, when I speak to my parents or their friends I still spoke Japanese. And I went to a school called Wilson Elementary School. It was a little country, country school. They had two big rooms, one room contained kindergarten to 4th grade and then the other one from 5th grade to 8th grade. So, so I don' ; t know how they did it but we had one teacher in one one class and another teacher in another class and they, they taught four grades each. And this, this is a kind of a country school, so I can' ; t remember whether we were, while the other classes were being taught, I don' ; t know what we did, maybe we threw paper clips or rubber bands at each other but I can' ; t remember. [laughs] But it was a little small country school, and each class had maybe about 10 or 12 students. And after Wilson Elementary School, well I was in the 7th grade and, and that year there was a, a great flood. Well we lived along what they call the Feather River which came down from the Sierra Nevadas. And each year, in the old days, they had these Chinese laborers build up these levees on both side of the river so it won' ; t flood. And each year this, when the spring, in the spring, when the, the snow started melting in the Sierra Nevadas, this huge amount of water would come down the Feather River and the, and this one particular year I think it was 1940--thir--1938, 39, or 40 I can' ; t remember but the levee started to to overflow. So they called every able-bodied person to come and try to fight the, the river, levee, for the river from overflowing. And then my, my older brother, my father, my older brother Jimmy, and my older brother Joe they, they all got into a truck with a shovel and they started going up to the levee, fill it up with, filling the levee with sandbags and they' ; re, they' ; re, I can' ; t remember how many people went there, but after awhile they came back and says " ; We can' ; t hold the levee back the water is overflowing" ; . So we all got onto this truck, and we move--moved to near Yuba City. We had a friend in Yuba City and we had all moved to their place, and after the floods we went back there, and we went to see the levee, and the levee was, I would say maybe about four footbi-football field wide and it just flooded the, the whole area there. Fortunately, because a lot of time they do it intentionally because if the country wasn' ; t flooded that city of Yuba City and Marysville will be flooded so a lot of times they intentionally cut the levee to flood the, the orchards. So, but this one here I don' ; t think it was done intentionally but, but uh, the, the floods just, after the flood receded, we got back on the truck and we took a tour about, around the area where we lived. And I remember, the first thing I remember was, somebody' ; s outdoor toilet was in our yard. [laughs] It just, the-the flood just brought the toilet into our yard. I don' ; t know what happened to our-our toilet because you know everybody had outdoor toilets. And the thing I remember when we were driving along, and we saw this railroad. The flood just twisted the railroads, we were looking down the, the railroad line, it' ; s just like a curve. And along the railroad track there were cows, and they were just bloated up, I just remember that because I was still about 12, 13 years old at that time. So after, after the flood, my brother found another place near Tudor, and we started going to another school called Central Gaither Elementary School and, and we were attending, I was in 8th grade at that time. And we were in this, it was Sunday, December 7th, we were in this Japanese school because my parents wanted us to learn Japanese, so they had this little country Japanese school, and we were attending the Japanese school, and our teacher' ; s name was Mr. Gouda. And he was a Japanese teacher also in the town of Marysville, but every Sunday he would, he would go out to the country, and teach some of the country people Japanese. So, I remember I was in the third grade, I was just learning some kanji, and I was learning this fude, how to write Japanese words with this Japanese brush. And it was in the eighth grade, we were just studying the constitution, in order to graduate 8th grade we had to memorize the constitution of the United States. And this is the irony of it, when we were studying the constitution we were looking out this classroom window, and we see this military people with Jeeps. And they got out and they' ; re on the telephone pole outside they' ; re tacking this thing on the telephone pole and we were just wondered why they were doing that. So at recess time we all ran outside and we were looking at this sign that says uh it was Executive Order 66, 90 I think it was signed by President Franklin Roosevelt. And it says, " ; All people of Japanese and Japanese descent we have to evacuate this area" ; . So, so when the principal read this notice, they ran out too, and says, " ; Okay all of you, pe--Japanese peo--children go home. You know, so after they posted that, we left school, we went home and by that time my brother--my brothers and my sister they read the sign and they says, " ; Well we have to get ready to evacuate" ; because they only give us, abou--I think it was about 10 days or so. And they says, " ; Just bring anything that you can carry' ; ' ; , and here I was looking around, I says, " ; Anything I can carry" ; . I had a lot of toys and things like that, I didn' ; t know which one to bring. And uh, and my father says, " ; Well don' ; t worry it' ; s not gonna last too long, so we' ; ll be back" ; . So I says, " ; Oh, okay" ; . So I went under the--this house that we were renting, and I hid all of my toys underneath the, the house. And thinking that we will go back, the-the most precious thing that I got was a microscope. It was one of those toy microscopes, it was about 3X magnification, and that was one of the precious things that I had, these little box games that I hid under the crawl space there, thinking that we' ; ll be back, but I don' ; t know what ever happened to it. But, but it was one of those things that we had to, we had to decide what to carry, so everybody was busy. And my brothers were busy trying to get rid of the refrigerator and the household things. And people would-would come around and saying, " ; I' ; ll give you 50 cents for that, I' ; ll give you a dollar for that." ; And the refrigerator, somebody says, " ; I' ; ll give you 50 cents" ; , and somebody else says, " ; I' ; ll give you a dollar" ; so my brother says, " ; Take it." ; So the refrigerator sold for a dollar. And one thing I remember was our car. We saved up, I don' ; t know how many years, we saved up to buy a car. So finally it was a 19, 1938 Ford and we paid $785. I remember that we had all this cash accumulated we didn' ; t--at that time my father didn' ; t believe in banks, so we just had it hidden away. So he gave it to my brother and my brother went to Yuba Cit--to Marysville to this car dealer and bought this car. And we were all so proud of it, and it was, it was color was black and that' ; s what Henry Ford says you could order any color, but you' ; re gonna get a black car. So all the Ford cars in those days were black. So when-when my brother brought that thing back, he was the only one that had a driver' ; s license. But we all got into the car, we was just driving around the country and I says, I still remember I says, " ; Oh, no more walking, no more bicycling" ; you know? We could ride in this car, because we always have to get a ride to go into town. And some people would say " ; I' ; m going to town, do you want to go?" ; So said " ; Okay" ; so they would come and pick us up and bring us to town but now with our own car we was just going to town whenever we wanted to. So it was, it was something that we were so proud of because everybody was chipping in into the family fund to buy this car. Well by the time evacuation come this car was only about 2 years old. And this, one guy came and says, " ; I' ; ll g--" ; we-we never got any offers on the car everything else everybody was picking up we just giving things away actually towards the end. And this one guy came and says, " ; Hey I hear y-you have a car that you want to sell." ; We says, " ; Yeah we paid 700-something a couple of years ago" ; . He says, " ; Well I' ; ll give you $100." ; So he had $100 cash, so my brother says " ; Well we can' ; t help it." ; You know, my-we w-the Japanese we would use the word shikata ga nai I, I don' ; t know if you under-you know what that is. But this is, this is the attitude that we had, we, you know had no other choice shikata ga nai. So I remember my mother telling me this story about the willow tree, it' ; s a Japanese story it says " ; You have to be a willow tree, if you, if you be a willow tree, the wind comes and blows but the willow just gives way to the, to the wind, and it won' ; t break. If you try to be a strong, stout tree the wind' ; s gonna come and break your branches." ; So, so that story and the shikata ga nai that' ; s, that' ; s what we felt from the time that this evacuation started. And something that we couldn' ; t do anything about it' ; s something that they posted up, we didn' ; t know anything about. But, well that time we were studying the constitution but, but all that just went out the window, it didn' ; t mean that much. Because you know later on I find out that every American citizen is, is entitled to a fair trial. And of course we didn' ; t know anything about that, the constitution. You know when you' ; re about 13 years old it doesn' ; t mean too much. But of course there are, a lot of the older niseis that understood this, so there was a guy named Fred Korematsu, you' ; ve probably heard of him, and there' ; s some other guys that, well, understood what the constitution of the United States was. So of course they, they fought for all of the Japanese Americans but after that we were, after we got through the-they came by. I think it was a Greyhound bus or some kind of a bus, that we all got on to. We just carried one suitcase, my, my dad was carrying two suitcases, my, my brothers were-were all carrying whatever they could hand-handle and they were throwing it on top of the bus. And it took us to this Marysville train station, and this Marysville train station, oh we a--we all got together we saw a lot of our friends all together. So we weren' ; t aware of what' ; s happening, but we just greeted each other and says " ; Well I don' ; t know where this train is going to go" ; and nobody knew where it was going to go. And my brothers were helping with the other people loading all of their luggage, well they had to put ID' ; s on their bags, and they had these little cardboard tags that' ; s, with a string around it. You write your name on there, and then you just put it on the tag, they would just throw the whole thing into the train. And once the train was loaded down they, they said " ; Everybody to, get into the train." ; So we all got into the train. I still remember the train had these chairs that flip-flop, if the train is going one way you' ; d flop the ch-chair and you' ; d be heading the same way with the train. And to my brother and I it was kind of a thrilling experience because this was our first train ride, you know, we never rode a train before. So it was kind of exciting. And as soon as we started moving, the soldiers I didn' ; t know they' ; re military or police, all I knew were that there were soldiers. They came through the train and told us, " ; Pull the blinds down." ; So we all pulled the blinds down. So after that we didn' ; t know where we were going we were-we couldn' ; t look out the window but-[coughs] Excuse me. Several hours later, they told us to open the blinds because the train stopped, and we looked out the window and they had these military convoy trucks and some buses. And we were all told to get out and get onto the trus-truck or the bus, so we got onto the, the, you know older people, they got on to the bus because they couldn' ; t get on to the top, top of the truck. So, but my brothers and I, we jumped on to the back of the truck and then we were taken to this Merced assembly center. We didn' ; t know where we were because when we opened up the shade we saw a lot of people out there and we didn' ; t know what was going on and we didn' ; t even know we were going to this camp because nobody, nobody knew about this assembly center. And I don' ; t know how they built assembly centers so fast because from December 7th you know, must have took ' ; em a couple of months and they had all this built up already. And also, not, this is what they called the Merced assembly center, and of course, after they assembled everybody, give ' ; em, gave ' ; em time to build these relocation centers in the different states, you know? You know, Tule Lake and Idaho, Arizona, Poston, and all those areas. But when we went to the Merced assembly center, the families just got together, and we had all of our nimotsu or baggage together, and then they would, they would come along and says, okay, they would give us a--this uh, I forgot what it was but it was like a sheet of paper. And this says okay, this is, this is your home so you--this is your apartment. And I just remember on the paper had D-311 so, so later on we all--my brother' ; s holding onto the paper, and they--and then--he' ; s--they' ; re giving us a description of what the assem--relocation center was like. Says, each one of these, the D represents a block and 3 represents the barrack, and the 11 represents the apartment, or the apartment that you' ; re going to be in, in that barracks. So we all started looking for their, our blocks. And fortunately, ours was one of the first blocks, it was D block. So we were out there, and my brother and I we were going up and down the block, looking for barrack three. And uh, finally found it, and my brothers were waving to--my brother says, " ; Over here, over here!" ; So they co--so they says " ; Come back and get th--the baggage!" ; So we, Larry and I ran back and got the baggage and we went into this room, I guess it was uh, about a little smaller than our living room which is about 25x25. And they had these Army cots, you know the kind that you fold with the canvas top. And then they had these mattresses that you put on top, and they had this GI blanket. So, so we mo--brought all of our baggage in there, and uh, we made an arrangement, of how we should have the cots, and we lined up all the cots on one side-- Cori Lin (CL): Grandpa. TN: Yes. CL: How old are all your siblings at this point? TN: Well, I was 13 years old. CL: How old were your--what are the names of your siblings and then how old are they? TN: Well, okay, Jimmy my oldest, he was born in 1922, so I don' ; t know how he was, but my, my sister was the oldest she was born in 1920 so my sister Mary and then comes my brother-- CL: What are their Japanese names too? TN: Oh, Mary Kimie, Kimie, and Jimmy, James Misao and my brother Joe, he didn' ; t have a Japanese name, everybody call him Jyo, Jyo in Japanese. [laughs] And then I came, the third son, and then my youngest was Larry Lawrence Tomomi Nakamura. So there were four of us, plus my sister, my mother and father. So we moved into this little apartment and we tried to settle in as much as we can. My mother, fortunately she brought some sheets, there was a whole bag, you know she just wrapped a whole blanket o' ; bags in the sheet and tied it like uh, you know, the Japanese do, and then you know, was carrying it over shoulder like that but um-- EL: Do you remember what the families did who didn' ; t bring their own sheets? TN: I do not know, but I think what they did was they just slept on the mattress and put the blanket over them. And uh-- EL: And you mentioned feeling a little bit excited, about riding on the train for the first time? TN: Oh, yes that was, well you know when you' ; re 13 years old and you never, never rode on a train before-- [smiles] EL: Right-- TN: It was, it was real exciting. So-- EL: Do you remember some of the other feelings that were running through you at that time, or maybe the expressions on your parents' ; faces? TN: Well they--they were concerned, especially my mother my, my father, he depended upon my mother a lot because he didn' ; t know how to read or write Japanese or English so he depended upon her a lot. And my mother, I have to give her a lot of credit, she was very intuitive and she had a lot of foresight so, and she was kind of a realistic person so she was really concerned for us. And of course my sister Mary, she was and she graduated high sc--I think in 1942. I think she graduated high school at that time, yeah. So she was, she was doing a lot of things taking care of the family, and my brother Jimmy too he was two years younger than my sister. And my brother Joe he was in high school at that time, and he was a very athletic person. And everybody knew him in camp because he was such a good baseball player, and they call ' ; em Lefty Yuba Joe, ' ; cause he was from Yuba City. [laughs] But uh, he and my, my sister my two brothers and my sister they took--took care of mostly everything, so my brother Larry and I we were, we were pretty, felt pretty comfortable, felt pretty safe. EL: Mhmm. TN: You know, when you have all those other older people taking care of you, you feel a little comfortable and we kinda enjoyed ourselves. But, I' ; d like to take a few minute break. EL: Of course. TN: And I' ; ll be right back. -- EL: Okay, we are recording again. CL: Mhmm. EL: So Tom, I think being mi-- CL: Oh, Emma you just mu-- EL: Yeah, being mindful of the time that' ; s available to us, I think if we can move quickly through some of the, the facts of where your family was during the war. It' ; s my understanding that you have given your family the great gift of , of writing down a lot of these details. So if we can shift a little bit through the war and use most of our time today to talk about after the war and especially your time in Chicago, I think that' ; s where we' ; ll head. So we--we were in Merced, so-called assembly center and then from there your family moved on to which camp? TN: Okay I' ; ll--I was thinking the same thing because all of these camp lifes are so recorded that practically everybody, you know, wanted to know they could just go back to a, a history book to understand that. So, what I' ; d like to do is after Merced assembly center we were, we were transferred to Amache relocation camp. It was called Granada, Colorado in Granada, Colorado. And of course the, the camp was named after a, Indian Princess I think Amache. And we, we spent my high school, high school days there. And after the camp closed, we moved to Denver, Colorado. And we stayed in, in Denver, Colorado for a few years, and uh-- EL: When you, when you left camp to go to Colorado, did you already know somebody who was there? Did you have a place to go to? TN: Yes, fortunately my brother, Jim, left camp early and he got a job in Denver as a chef in a restaurant. And he saved enough money to put a down payment on the house for us. So by the time we left camp we had a house in Denver where my mother and my father and the rest of us was able to move to, a place to move to. So we were fortunate in that, and of course my father had a stroke in camp so when the camp closed, the Army furnished an ambulance, and they asked me to stay with my father in the ambulance. So from Amache we drove all the way up to Denver in this Army ambulance, and we established a life there in Denver for a few years. [coughs] Excuse me. EL: And then after those few years in Denver, what came next? TN: Well after a few years, well I st--I only stayed there for about year and a half and I got a V-mail from my brother, and he says " ; Tom, you know you' ; re 17 years old 17 and a half, you' ; re going to be drafted pretty soon, so says I think the services will accept Japanese Americans now so why don' ; t you try to volunteer to any of the services except the Army." ; He says, " ; Army is--" ; , I--I don' ; t want to use the word but there' ; s a description [laughs] of, of what the Army was. EL: And his opinion was based on? TN: Well he was in the 442nd and, you know, he, he fought from, well he started in North Africa through a--through Italy, and Germany so he went through a lot of bad things. So, yeah, so he says " ; Just try to avoid the Army." ; So I went to the Navy recruiting people in Denver, and I says, " ; You know I' ; m Japanese American, do you take Japanese American in the Navy?" ; This guy looks at me, he says " ; Sure" ; , so I says, " ; Okay, I' ; m gonna volunteer for the Navy." ; So he signed me up, and before you know it I was on my way to San Diego Naval Training Center, and from there I was transferred to Pensacola to take training as an aviation photographer. So I graduated Pensacola, and then I went--they transferred me to this aircraft carrier, the Franklin D. Roosevelt and I--I tra--I--the--the Roosevelt aircraft carrier was in, in the dry docks, so they transferred me to the Norfolk Naval Air, Air Base and I stayed there until the end of my duty. And then I came back to, to Yuba City, worked around for a while, and then decided to go to this New York Institute of Photography. And so I started getting jobs here and there, just enough money to move to the next town and my next--the first, first town was in Provo, Utah I got a job as a far--as a truck farming, helping a truck farm. So I stayed there for about a month and a half, got enough money to go to Denver, and then I got a job in Denver at a pharmaceutical distribution center called McKesson & ; Robbins, I don' ; t know if they' ; re still in business. But I saved up enough money to go to Chicago and I figured well I' ; ll get a job in Chicago and continue on to New York. Well it so happened that Chicago is November 2nd, 1948 President Truman was elected president at that time. That' ; s when the Chicago Tribune says " ; Dewey Elected President!" ; , and then they retracted their right away and says, " ; Our mistake, Truman!" ; [laughs] So it was kind of a memorable day that I arrived in Chicago. And I stayed at the YMCA for awhile until my funds ran out, ' ; cause I was looking for a job, I couldn' ; t find any job at that time. EL: Did you know anybody in Chicago? TN: Well I--I didn' ; t I, I knew, later on, I knew there were quite a few people, but at that time I wasn' ; t intending to stay that long, so I, I didn' ; t look up any friends or anything. So I walked the streets for awhile, and found out that Japantown was on the Near North Side, so from the Loop to Division St. In the meantime, I move all my things from the YMCA, I moved it to this National Trailway bus station. I put all my things in the locker, and that was my, I think my last dime I put in there, and I, I couldn' ; t take it out because I didn' ; t have any money to put, put the things back in. So I was walking the streets, and somebody told me he says " ; Well why don' ; t you go Clark and Division, that' ; s where lot of the Japanese resettled." ; So I said, " ; Well, where' ; s Division Street?" ; he says " ; Well you just keep walking north." ; I just, I was happened to be on Clark Street. And so I kept walking, and I, I remember how cold it was because it was in November it' ; s cold and I just had this reversible coat, what they call the Melton on one side and gabardine on the inside. And that was warm enough for California but not Chicago. I didn' ; t realize how cold Chicago could get in November. So what I did was, I remember there were two newspapers at that time, the Chicago Sun Times and the Chicago Tribune. Well the Chicago Sun Times was a smaller paper, and it fit under my coat so I stuffed myself with the Chicago Sun Times newspaper about three thickness. And I' ; ll b--be walking along crinkling with the newspaper, [laughs] but it kept me warm. And so I finally reached Division Street and I see a lot of these Japanese stores, and first store I remember was Toguri Mercantile store which is near Clark and Division. And, and on one--one side on the corner was a hotel called Mark Twain, I don' ; t know if it' ; s still there, and then on the, the other corner was a drug store called Dressler Drugs. And, and right by, by Elm Street near Toguri, there was a pool hall called Zipp' ; s pool hall. So they said " ; Oh, a lot of the niseis on weekend they come and play pool over there." ; So I went in there, and I was just sitting around watching people play pool, and at that time I was smoking a lot and I didn' ; t have any money for smokes so, so people' ; d lay their cigarette butts along the, thing and I just pick it up take a puff. [laughs] And then I said to myself, well that' ; s--that word about " ; Beggars cannot be choosy?" ; [laughs] But uh, it was, it was a pretty couple of hard weeks because uh--then finally at, this is a Saturday night, I went there to the Zips Pool Hall and I ran into couple of guys I didn' ; t know, but they, they I introduced myself to them and I was telling ' ; em that, my story. He says, " ; Oh come on over there, come on, come with us." ; And I forgot their last name, but, but he had a nickname called Froggy? Froggy and Sarah. And he took me to a restaurant next door, and bought me a big plate of meatball and spaghetti. And that was the first big meal I had, and I just gobbled that down. And I remember says, " ; Froggy are you going to eat, eat that bread?" ; He says " ; No" ; ' ; says, so I took that bread from him, I ate his bread and oh, that was such a good meal I, I just remember that. And in the meantime, a few days later, my classmate from camp, his name is George Hikawa, he was at the pool hall and then he, he recognized me and then I told him the story I said you know I don' ; t have a place I just live at the bus terminal. He says " ; Oh my, my mother runs a boarding house." ; So he says " ; Come on over." ; So I says " ; You sure it' ; s okay? I don' ; t have any money." ; He says " ; Oh it' ; s okay." ; So I walked all the way down to the bus terminal, down the Loop, and then walk all the way back to their boarding house, which is on, between Goethe and Schiller on LaSalle Street, so 1330 N. LaSalle St was the address. So I brought all my gear and then, then I met the mother and, and the father also. And they says, " ; Oh, come on down for a meal." ; So I kinda felt guilty because I didn' ; t have any money, and all the rest of the guys there, there were about 14 guys there, mostly ex-GIs going to school under the GI bill. CL: Grandpa, were they mostly Japanese? TN: Mostly Ja--I think they were all Japanese. And a lot of them from Hawaii, from Idaho, from different places, and they were all going to school and living at that boarding house. So, so we made friends and when I first sat down I felt so guilty, but then Mrs. Hikawa she was so nice to me, and she says, and the father too he says, " ; I understand the situation" ; , he says, " ; Don' ; t worry about it." ; So I felt a little better, and then, from then on I started searching for jobs, and this guy says " ; Hey, you know there' ; s a place called Resettlers" ; I says " ; Where?" ; He says " ; Right down, you know a couple of blocks on LaSalle St." ; So I says " ; Oh okay" ; . Because I' ; m looking through the Yellow Pages and looking for addresses and you know there are some in the Loop, some way on the northside, and I, I it would take me all day just to go for one interview. So I says, " ; Oh I' ; ll try Resettlers" ; , so I walked down on Goethe, right on the corner was a Swedish club I remember. And I was, I was thinking all these people with, when they have parties they have all these tuxedos, and the women were wearing gowns going into the Swedish club. I said " ; Boy, is it nice to be rich?" ; [laughs] But I kept walking down, and then on the corner of Clark and LaSalle, I mean on Division and LaS--uh Division and LaSalle, there was a White Castle. White Castle hamburger? And then right past White Castle was this little storefront and uh, it says " ; Chicago Resettlers Committee" ; . So I walked down, I think you go down a step. And there was this man, I forgot what his name was, I was talking to him, I was looking for a job. And then he says " ; Well these are all the, all the stores or the company that' ; s going to hire Japanese Americans." ; So he says " ; You don' ; t have to worry about going different places and trying because these people--" ; he says, " ; --mostly I talked to and they' ; re willing to hire Japanese Americans." ; And w-- EL: When he said, when he said that, did he have a list to show you or-- TN: Yes, he ha-- EL: --specific job descriptions? TN: Right, well like this, one on the list was Curtiss Candy Company. And I heard of Curtiss Candy Company, I says, " ; Hey that' ; s Babe Ruth!" ; You know, so, he says, " ; Well a lot of, lot of issei women are working there so if you wanna try you can go over there." ; But then I was looking through the different brochures and things he had on the table, and my eye caught this LaSalle Photo Service. Underneath was a William Yamamoto. And I, I looked there and I says " ; Do you know this William Yamamoto?" ; He says, " ; Yeah he used to run a studio called ' ; Oriental Studio' ; , but he started a different business now." ; So I said I don' ; t know if it' ; s the same William Yamamoto that I knew in Amache, but so I said " ; Well, I' ; ll give it a try." ; So I walked down LaSalle St, and he was on ten forty--1048 S LaSalle St. So I' ; m walking down there, across the street was a ca--place called LaSalle Mans--LaSalle Mansion. And, talking to the guy he says " ; Well there' ; s a lot of people that we knew that lives in the LaSalle Mansion too because a lot of the people from Amache moved into the LaSalle Mansion." ; So it was right across from the LaSalle Mansion. And so I walk, I turned, and I see this apartment building, and I says " ; I' ; m looking for LaSalle Photo Service." ; And there' ; s no LaSalle Photo Service! So I ring the bell, and then this one Japanese man comes out, and he, I says, " ; You know I' ; m looking for LaSalle Photo Service." ; He says " ; Oh it' ; s downstairs in the basement." ; So I introduce myself and I says " ; You know, I' ; m looking for a job, I don' ; t know if, if this William Yamamoto was the same Ya--William Yamamoto that I knew in camp." ; So he says " ; Oh come on down, I' ; ll show you." ; So we went down to the basement. It was very dimly lit, and I see two people in the corner there, working. And then the, this, later on I find out his name is Tom Tsubone, he was uh, he owned, he bought the apartment building. And he, he says " ; Bill, there' ; s somebody here to see you." ; So soon as Bill looked at me and I looked at him I says, " ; That' ; s the same Bill that we knew in camp!" ; [laughs] So we started talking, and he was wondering what happened to me, I said " ; Well I was in the Navy, and then I just got out, I was going to go under the GI bill." ; So, so he says well there was this one lady working with him, so he says " ; Oh I just got married few years ago and this is my wife, Grace." ; So that' ; s how we got together. And I said, well this was in March, I applied for GI bill to go to this Ray-Vogue School of Photography on, on Michigan Ave in the Loop. So, so this was in, this was May. So I asked Bill I says, " ; You know I--I' ; ve been looking for a job, I go to school in the afternoons, and I' ; m looking for a job in the morning." ; So he says, " ; Perfect." ; I says, " ; Can you use a part-timer?" ; He says " ; I sure can." ; So that' ; s, that' ; s how we started in the basement. So I would get up 7:00 o' ; clock in the morning, go help him, and work, work with him ' ; till noon, then I would take the subway down to the Loop and go to school. [coughs] Excuse me. EL: And what kind of a school was it? TN: It was Ray-Vogue School of Photography and Fashion. It was one of these schools that pop up because of the GI bill. So after the GI bill ran out, that school went outta business. [laughs] But it was something that I wanted to learn because all I knew was military photography, you know? And I wanted to know a little about civilian photography. Well this one here happened to specialize in fashions. But I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t want to go into fashion photography, that was farthest from my mind. But they had the, the commercial division which I was interested in, so I went to the commercial division. And uh that was--I think the school classes lasted only 10 months, so after that I started working with Bill full time. And he' ; s--when, when we started, we st--we started with maybe about two or three stores, drug stores, mainly developing film for the drug stores. And we had, on the way we had this Dressler drug stores on Clark and Division. And so we would stop in and talk to the Japanese stores, little mom and pop stores, and Toguri was a pretty big store. And we would say " ; Well, if anybody drops off a roll of film for, to develop," ; says, " ; we' ; ll put this sign out, saying that you develop films." ; So that' ; s how we got all of these Japanese stores along Clark St, and then have York, York Foods, Toguri' ; s, there was another mercantile store on the, that was, east side of Clark St, and there several stores north of Clark St, and that' ; s how we started out. And we worked there for--from May 2nd, and the next year we had, we were so busy we had to move to another place, so we, we relocated to Fullerton Avenue. There was a storefront, a typical Chicago storefront, 25-foot frontage with a window, display window with a door in the middle. And that--that' ; s where we moved, and that' ; s how we began our second generation of photo finishing. And a few years later business continued to grow, so Bill bought a lot on the corner of Diversey and Paulina, and we built a photo plant from the ground up over there. And a few years later, our business continued to grow, in the meantime we had, at, on Fullerton Ave, we had a lot of nisei workers, workin' ; for us part time. And some of them stayed for us for almost 30 years. And when we moved to Diversey, we had about 20, 20 people at, when we were on Fullerton, and then we moved to Diversey and then that grew to about 125 people, so we had to expand again. So we expanded to an area of 3300-square foot of service space. And by that time our employees grew to over 400 employees and we, we were known as people who hire Japanese Americans only. ' ; Cause although we, we had lot of Caucasian people, lot of them they came to me in my office one day, he says " ; You know, Tom," ; says, " ; I like working here but I know there' ; s a invisible glass ceiling and I' ; m going to look somewhere else." ; So when he, when he said that, I said " ; Oh my gosh!" ; Says, " ; You reminded me all the prejudice ag--against the Japanese Americans" ; and now here the Japanese Americans, unconsciously because, you know we didn' ; t do it intentionally, we just wanted help the niseis out. Because lot of them were looking for jobs, and they knew that they could find a job. I used t--I used to tell my friends I said " ; If you' ; re a Japanese American, you got a 99% chance of getting a job at LaSalle Photo." ; [Laughs] But uh, it was a--it was, it was not in a prejudicial way, you know we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t just want Japanese Americans, because eventually we hired a lot of different other races. They' ; re uh, although I do admit a lot of them are Asian, because we had lot from Korea, lot of Filipino people, lot of, lot from Thailand, and we had blacks, whites, well we, we had quite a mixture of them. And a lot of Spanish, so it was a, kind of a potpourri of, of Chicago. And I can' ; t, I can' ; t say too much maybe I, maybe I' ; d like to emphasize how much Bill helped the Japanese American community. He not only helped the Resettlers, but when they changed to the JASC, he helped them a lot too. I remember one year he bought a van, and he had it, he had it made so that it would take care of the handicapped people. And at that time you know cars were 18,000, 20,000, but this van, I told Bill I said " ; Boy, how much did this set you back?" ; He says " ; Oh in the 50s." ; I said " ; Whoa my gosh!" ; [laughs] So the people from JASC came to our plant to pick up the van, and it had one of these things where you could get the wheelchair, and get on with the wheelchair. And we, we took pictures in the back of our plant, and they were appreciative. And he wouldn' ; t say but I know monetarily he helped the JASC a lot, and his wife Grace helped a lot, and then his daughter, Nancy, she helped a lot. When she was, after she retired I think she was working almost full time there for a while and also as uh, an advisor. I don' ; t know if you know, knew a Nancy Yoshida? EL: I don' ; t, I' ; m actually fairly new-- TN: Oh, okay. El: --to the JASC, and new to Chicago, so I don' ; t have that network of connections. TN: Oh okay, but anyway she was, she was one of those that really helped out a lot, a lot to people, because of her mother and father doing this. So-- CL: Grandpa, I have a quick question. Um, did--or actually, Emma, do you have a question first? Um, what--did you feel like people were supportive of LaSalle Photo expanding, either like, through the city process or like the neighborhoods that you were expanding in, like how did non-Japanese people react to you becoming so successful? TN: Well, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think they had any animosity towards us. Yeah, matter of fact lot of the, you know homes that we needed the land. So what Bill did was he offered them a offer you know like uh, The Godfather says " ; I' ; m gonna offer you an offer you can' ; t refuse." ; [laughs] So, so they were, he built, he, he bought out three buildings next door, and he paid top real estate price, plus the move-in to the new place. So, so once, once they moved out then we tore everything down and we expanded our building out there. And, and we needed parking for our employees so there was couple of more buildings that we bought out and tore it down, and made it into employee parking lot. So I guess-- CL: What about this, the city, like when you were getting permits and stuff? TN: [Laughs] Oh, well I, I don' ; t know if I should tell about the city of Chicago. [Laughs] But this--[Laughs] Shall I do that Cori? CL: I think it would be fine, ' ; cause it' ; s, it' ; s all old news. TN: Oh, well a lot of times it' ; s, it' ; s still current, you know what happens? [laughs] But uh, working with this city of Chicago, you know building, expanding, all of these things. It was a lot of headache because, you know I, I try to be honest in the business, and then I find out that in order to expand in business in Chicago, you have to get to know what the word mean--word of " ; payola ' ; ' ; means. I don' ; t know if you understand payola. And everything was under the table, and that' ; s how we were able to expand. Otherwise you know, it took years and years for different departments to approve, and you needed somebody to push this through the building department. So, well we weren' ; t able to, to wait years you know, you have the fire department, the water--water department. City, city bidding--buil--building codes and all that the red tape that you have to go through. Well one of the secrets, I guess I could tell this, is knowing your alderman. He has the power, he is a power in your ward. And, he has so much influence in City Hall. But, I, I hate to break this but I have to take another break. So can you-- EL: Go right ahead, I' ; ll pause the recording. -- EL: Okay, so we' ; ll pick up where we left off. You were talking about expanding the business, and a little bit about what it takes to grease the wheels a little bit in Chicago. And, just for clarification, would you be able to define for me the time period when all of that growth and expansion was happening? TN: Okay, well the, the growth period, it started from uh, well we--I started in May of 1949, and this was in the 50s and 60s and 70s when the growth started. So by the time I retired, I retired in 1989, we had, I was checking the payroll, and we had over 750 people employed. Well what we did was, I think in the 70s or--yes I think it was in the 70s, late 70s when we, when we started acquiring retail store, retail store outlets. You know, in the 40s, in the early 40s and 50s I think there was a law saying that manufacturers cannot have their own retail outlet. And Eastman Kodak Company had to close all of their retail outlet stores. So, what we did was not against that law because we were not a manufacturer, we were a service company. And we started buying out some of these camera stores, that were on the verge of bankruptcy or whatever, and then we started building our own camera stores. This is long past, I could, I think I could reveal this, that we had 22 retail outlet stores, and the majority of them were called " ; Lion Photo Service" ; . And we had, we had stores in Chicago, and a lot of them in the suburbs. Our biggest store was in Schaumburg, and our next biggest Lion Store was in Fox Valley, near Aurora. And we had a lot of other stores, we had one big store on Wabash Avenue, in the Loop. And of course we had others, small stores throughout like Skokie Camera became one of our stores. And we had accounts from--furthest north was Milwaukee, Wisconsin, we used to have drivers drive up there every day. And as far west as Aurora, and Fox Valley, Elgin, we had the Elgin, several store outlets in Elgin. And Algonquin, and far south is in Gary, Indiana. And of course some of our biggest commercial accounts was the Florsheim Shoe Company and they' ; re outside of the Loop there. And there was a big, big account in Racine, Wisconsin. The name of the company slips my mind, but they' ; re a big tool manufacturing company. Oh Snap-on Tools! Yeah they were, they were one of our big accounts. And what we do is we photograph, make big photographs of these, and send it out all over the country. Of course but Marshall Field they had their own delivery system, so we would deliver it to their warehouse and they would send it out to all of their stores. And they would display it in their window displays. And uh-- CL: Grandpa, so I was wondering since we are almost at the end of the interview, if you could also talk a little bit about some of the social groups? Um, any Japanese social groups that either you or like grandma, or mom were a part of? TN: Okay, good, oh yes, I could do that in a nutshell. Not actually, it has to be a big nutshell. [laughs] Well I was, I was a bachelor for about seven years in Chicago, and there are a lot of, when we, when we first, when I first came here they had a lot of wome--girls, girls group. You know, when they came out of camp, all of the different girls from different camps they form groups. They were known as Titles, the Debonnaires, the Silhouettes. And each one of those groups had maybe ' ; bout 10, 15 girls. And lot of them are still going to school, and lot of them graduated. So there was kind of a mixture between 18 to 21 I guess. And what they would do is they would, sponsor dances. And of course, when all of the groups, there were about, I can' ; t remember the exact amount, but there were maybe about six or seven different girls' ; groups. And they would have a dance at the YMCA on Chicago Avenue, or was that a YWCA? I can' ; t remember. But then all of the people from the south side, north side, all the young guys they would go, go to the dance. And that' ; s how we met all the different girls around the Chicago area. And of course the other event was, there' ; s a lot of th-the boys, they was form sports teams. You know basketball teams, baseball teams, and they would gather together and have team parties. And the year that I went, they had, I think it might have been the first or second all camp picnic. It was on the west side, near, close to Cicero, Illinois. And I think they, they had about I can' ; t remember the figure. The figure 20,000 comes but I think that' ; s the, the, all of the evacuees. But there are-there were a big, big, crowd at the picnic. And we would just go around, and looking to see what, what people you knew from camp. And also you met lot of other people that were in other camps that you knew before the war. So, so it was a, a good time. I think, majority of the people that lived in the Chicago area went to that picnic. So it was a great picnic. I don' ; t know if Resettlers sponsored it, I don' ; t know who sponsored it but, but it grew a, it drew a big, nisei crowd. And-- EL: In the--oh, go ahead. TN: In the 1950s, late 1950s, I met this one girl, she was from Hawaii. And I--and she stayed at the boarding house with another girl from Hawaii. And during that summer time, she had a sister that was going to Indiana State Teachers College. And she came to visit her sisters, and she had a brother here too. She came to visit, and then we started going out on a picnic together. You know, it was not only her but her girl friends that went to Indiana State. So we used to go out to Lincoln Park, bring out the goza, and have a picnic out there. And later on one, one August, it was August 18th, 1956 I think, 55. Her girlfriend says " ; Oh Tom," ; her name was Stella, said " ; Tom you know, Patsy, we' ; re giving her a surprise birthday party, you think you could ask her for a date?" ; so I says, " ; Oh yeah sure, okay." ; All this time we just met as a group, so I went to her room and I says " ; What are you doing this--" ; I forgot what day of the week it was. She says " ; Oh nothing." ; So I says, " ; Well you wanna go out for dinner?" ; She says " ; Okay," ; so I said " ; Oh, I' ; ll pick you up at 7," ; I think it was 7 or 7:30. Because the dinner was going to be at this restaurant in Chinatown. So I, I took her out--I picked her up, and we drove towards Chinatown. I says " ; How do you feel like Chinese food?" ; She says, " ; Oh, I like Chinese food" ; so I said " ; Good! So we' ; ll go to this one Chinese restaurant." ; And here, well, this was her f--our first date together, you know we always dated as a group. So I parked the car and bring her into this Chinese restaurant, and soon as we walk in, you know she' ; s expecting just the two of us. And then all of a sudden, I walked to the table and hear all of her friends, her sisters, her brothers, and all her girl friends from Indiana State, says " ; Surprise! Happy birthday!" ; [Laughs] And that' ; s how we first got together on our first date, and rest of ' ; em was history. Seven great--seven grandchildren and one great-grandchild, oh, God has really blessed me. And I could tell you about my spiritual life too but that' ; s gonna take another hour. CL: Grandpa, that would take 10 hours! EL: And we could always schedule another follow-up interview if you' ; re up for it, and Cori if that' ; s something that you' ; re interested in, I feel like you have so many stories to tell, and I have so many more questions to ask you. But, building on what you were just telling us, when you proposed to your wife, did you do that somewhere in Chicago? TN: Yes, I--I remember the exact space, the exact place. It was on the porch, at 1330 N LaSalle St. [laughs] EL: And was that where you were living or where she was living? TN: We were both, both staying there. I was on the 1330 side and she was on the 1328 side, because her and her girlfriend Stella, was living in an apartment, and her sister was living on 1328 side. Her, her name was Charlotte. And her other sister later moved to 1328, and her name was Gladys. So when they first found an apartment on north Kenmore, they found out the apartment was full of bed bugs, so they moved out of there and moved to, to 1328, North LaSalle Street. CL: And you all stayed in those two flats for awhile, or where, where did you raise mom? TN: You mean Reta Street? Oh, well that' ; s after we, we got married and we had to my, my oldest daughter Kelly. And in the meantime, my sister-in-law and her husband, and my other sister-in-law, they bought a apartment building, three-flat apartment building, on north Reta Street near Wrigley Field. So uh, they both, they both moved in. On the third floor was a, a tenant, a Jewish tenant and they eventually moved out. So after, we w--we were living on Lakeside Place, near the Aragon Ballroom there. And we moved to the third floor, and that' ; s where, my three daughters and their, their cousins grew up together. We were like one big family. And there was, three, three floors of us, so from the time they were small, they, they were like, fighting like brothers and sisters actually. And they' ; re still close today. And, all of their children they' ; re all, they' ; re all close too. They' ; re all, nice close cousins, right Cori? And you fight like cats and dogs sometimes too. [Laughs] CL: Yes. [laughs] TN: But we all love each other, and I' ; m so proud of them! All of them are so successful in life, they' ; re so talented, I' ; m so proud of them. And I' ; m just waiting for this pandemic to be over so I could give all of them a big hug! [Laughs] EL: I think a lot of people are looking forward to that time. On a related note, I' ; m curious, during the time that you were--especially the early days in Chicago, and your own family was quite far away geographically, how did you maintain a connection with them during that time? TN: Well my, my parents lived in California. My sister, my brothers, they all lived in California. So, after I bought a car, almost every year I would, on my vacation time I would drive to California and visit them for two weeks. Well actually it was ' ; bout ten days the other time was left in driving. But, I don' ; t know how many times I drove cross country, but from Route 66, to Route 40, to Route 30 I knew all the routes to California! [laughs] But sometimes, I would go with some of my friends because we would share a ride, and few of them lived in San Francisco and some of them lived in Los Angeles. So we' ; d just share a ride, and that' ; s how I would keep in contact with my parents. But, other than that, I don' ; t know if there' ; s enough time to share about my religion, but I don' ; t, I don' ; t know if-- EL: If you' ; re feeling energetic enough to keep talking, my schedule is clear and I can stay on the call, but it' ; s up to you. TN: Okay well, I' ; ll just try to be a few minutes because when, when I came to Chicago, I was a Buddhist. You know my mother and father were strictly Buddhist, and Yuba City was mostly people that believed in Buddhism. You know when I was at the-the boarding house, these people from Moody Bible Institute, which is located right on Chicago Avenue and, and LaSalle Street there. LaSalle and Clark. They would come by and they would pass out brochures, and all of us GIs we would just sit out in the front porch and we would make catcalls and whistles to all the, the girls that would go to this Moody Bible Church on North Avenue. So whenever Sunday came all the, all the girls would walk on the other side of LaSalle Street, because they, because they knew that we would make whistles and catcalls to them. But one day one of the guys from Moody Bible stopped and gave all of us little brochures. And we looked at it, and we just threw it away in the g--waste basket. But every day he would come and, and he targeted my friend Danny Takeguchi and myself, and he would just, I don' ; t know why he targeted the two of us because we were both raised up Buddhist. But then, one Sunday Danny and I says, " ; Hey this, this guy' ; s goin' ; stop and talk to us so let' ; s go inside." ; So we went inside our room, and we were sitting, laying down in our beds reading a book, pretty soon there' ; s a knock on the door. And then there' ; s this guy! I says, I' ; m looking at Danny I said, " ; Boy, is this guy persistent!" ; So, so we didn' ; t wanna be rude, so we invited him in and he started talking to us about Jesus Christ. So, so he gave me, he gave us a little booklet on the book of Saint Johns. And he, he told us about creation, and of course this is the first time I heard about creation. And it says, uh, in this book, are you a Christian, are you, are you familiar with the Bible, Emma? EL: I attended a Catholic school for a few years, I wasn' ; t raised Christian but I have some familiarity. TN: Oh okay, okay. But, but in this book it says, " ; In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." ; So, he asked us " ; You know when the beginning was?" ; I says " ; Yeah, because you know, we came from the ocean and we, we' ; re a fish, we develop legs, and then eventually we grew up to be an ape." ; So that' ; s when he started explain to me about how God has created the heavens and the earth. So, so this is how I became a Christian. It took a few months of his persistency, but he kept coming and he started sharing little bit here and there. And then eventually, he took us to this one Japane--well, he, he took us to this Moody Bible Church. And Danny and I sat up on the second balcony, and we' ; re looking down and then I' ; m telling Danny I said " ; Hey Danny I didn' ; t know there were so many Christians in this place," ; because there were over 2000 people at the Moody church, and that' ; s how I became involved in Christianity. And another comment I wanted to make, this is on a spiritual basis, was that when I had my three daughters you know when they were teenagers, getting ready to be a marriageable age after college, I was praying to God I says, " ; Oh God, pray that they will meet a nice, Christian, nis--nisei or sansei man" ; you know? And then all of a sudden God played a big trick on me. First one that got married was my daughter, and she got married to this Caucasian guy. And the second one, I says " ; Well maybe, maybe my second daughter will marry a nice sansei person." ; and she says " ; Oh Dad I' ; m gettin--I' ; m getting married to this person." ; I says " ; What is he?" ; She says " ; Oh, he goes to our church." ; I said " ; Oh good, good!" ; Because this, participants at our church was mostly nisei and sansei people. And she says " ; Oh his name is Charlie Lin." ; I says, " ; Charlie Lin." ; [laughs] And then, after I met him I said, says, " ; At least the Christian part was correct, he was a good Christian" ; and he turned out to be the nicest son-in-law I ever had. He was, he was takin' ; after me because he said " ; Dad, I' ; m taking after you because I have three daughters" ; and then, and he says, says, " ; And they' ; re all going to be a Christians" ; so I says, " ; Charlie, you are the best!" ; and I still miss him today. He was such a good son-in-law. He was a good dad right? Kristi--Cori. I still miss him. But I think that' ; s, that' ; s about it, I' ; m getting out of breath. So thank you-- EL: And we' ; re comi-- TN: Thank you so much Emma for the time, to reveal--share part of my life you know, 93, 92 years of life, and, and they seem to just go by so quickly, and I' ; m glad that I was able to show my granddaughter Cori, leave some of the legacy on the book, on the books. Thank you so much. EL: Well thank you for being so generous with your time, and your remarkable memory. I am just in awe of how clearly you remember things, and how, how detailed your descriptions are. So thank you, from the bottom of my heart. TN: You' ; re welcome. EL: And Cori, thank you for organizing this. And as I said if there' ; s any interest in continuing the conversation and recording again, we can absolutely do that, it' ; s quite easy to set up a time. One advantage of this pandemic is that geography is no longer a barrier for us. So, I' ; m going to stop the recording now, but you' ; re welcome to stay on the line for a moment after that and we can say our goodbyes, but I' ; ll end it here with a thank you. TN: You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NakamuraTom20210316.xml NakamuraTom20210316.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/18" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021)</a><br /><br />Oral History Interview: <a href="https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/2735" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Lin, Cori Nakamura (12/15/2022)</a>
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Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021)
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Tom Kazumi Nakamura was born in Marysville, California in 1928. Growing up on a peach farm, Tom attended a small school in rural northern California along with his siblings. At the age of 14, Tom and his family were forced to sell their possessions and take only what they could carry as they were sent to “camp” by the US Government, via Executive Order 9066. After being taken to the Merced assembly center, Tom and his family were incarcerated in Amache. After the war, Tom enlisted in the Navy, training in naval photography. This translated to his work later on, as after discharge he moved back to California, and planned to make his way to New York to attend photography school paid by the GI bill, taking small jobs along the way. Instead, he met an old friend from camp in Chicago, William Yamamoto, and the two of them took LaSalle Photo, a small photo developing shop, and grew it into a company that at its peak employed hundreds of nisei and other individuals in the Chicagoland area. Tom shares memories of meeting his wife, Patsy, and their first date, as well as stories of his family, and his relationship with religion. One of his grandchildren, Cori Lin, joins him in this interview.
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949
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2021-03-16
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video
Series: Oral History Project
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nakashima, Alec
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/18/2017 Nakashima, Alec (11/18/2017) 0:29:07 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Nakashima, Alec Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307597276 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307597276?h=7ae7fbd545" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 To start, can you state your full name? Alec Nakashima: 00:02 Uh, Alec Christopher Nakashima. AT: 00:04 And where and when were you born? AN: 00:06 I was born in 1992 in Lodi, California, just outside of Sacramento. AT: 00:12 And, um, so to get started, can you just tell me a little bit about, um, your family' ; s backgrounds- AN: 00:20 Sure. AT: 00:20 Um, and I guess your, your connection to the experience of Japanese Americans during World War II? AN: 00:28 Yeah, I think that, I guess I should start by saying I' ; m a fourth/fifth, uh, generation- generational uh Japanese American. My dad' ; s side is fourth and they came straight to the mainland and my mom' ; s side, the reason for them being fifth is they immigrated a little bit earlier to Hawai' ; i first and kind of dispersed into the US from there. Um, but I would say I probably have the typical blend of the Japanese American upbringing and experience probably, um in the sense that you really keep, keep, hold some traditions that are very rooted in Japanese culture, but you don' ; t necessarily, um, feel separate from your classmates until you kind of understand what being a Japanese American means, I think. Um, and it' ; s funny, I think some of the traditions you don' ; t even realize necessarily until you get a little bit older that those are kind of rooted in uh, Japanese traditions. I, the, one of the ones that I like to draw a parallel to is the American thing of New Year' ; s Eve being a really big holiday, right? And then in Japanese culture it' ; s more, New Year' ; s Day is just a huge uh, feast really and celebration with food. And I think for a majority of my life I had kind of that duality represented in those, in those like mix of American things that I celebrated with my friends. And then things that were more familial, uh, traditions where we kind of celebrated a blend, a fusion of like American and Japanese holidays. But yeah, I would say it was probably a very, like, even split between the American upbringing and the Japanese upbringing. AT: 02:26 Hm. Um, before we get in, like talk a little bit more about, um, your, your, um, Japanese American identity and kind of that identity development part. Um, do you, do you know or have any more details about kind of, um, like your, your grandparents integration patterns and like where and when people were moving to? AN: 02:54 Specific dates? Not really. I know that on, especially on my mom' ; s side, they came to Hawai' ; i to work. Um, and my, my great, great grandpa, um, initially worked like in the sugar plantations. It was, it was really common back then apparently in Hawai' ; i. Um, and then I think it was a fairly natural diaspora from there. Like, my grandma' ; s generation, right, wanted better education opportunities and for that they went to places like Colorado and even Los Angeles in California. And from there I think naturally like, were able to open up and unlock better opportunities for their kids and realize that those would come in certain places, right. Like ver- more urban and city areas. And then on my dad' ; s side, it' ; s actually, kind of the opposite, right. They found one place in northern California and very much stuck around that place and they were kind of similar. The, the common denominator being like agriculture was a huge part of not only them but like many Japanese Americans of that time where they, I mean that was like all they could get at that time, right? Like that was the only opportunity. It was like agriculture and farming. And there was actually a really interesting history that I' ; ve kind of just started to look at of like how Japanese Americans of that time were real pioneers of agriculture. Like all they could get was the undesirable places that grew the undesirable crops and they found ways to like, do irrigation and, and stuff to be able to grow, like more premium things at those locations. So I think probably that' ; s like the two separate paths of, of like my mom' ; s side of my dad' ; s side. AT: 04:41 And do you know, um, like what kind of farms they were..working on? AN: 04:47 No, I don' ; t. Like specific, specific crops. No, uh uh. I wish I did. AT: 04:53 And, um, during World War II, like what happened to your, to both families? AN: 05:01 So I think I have like a unique blend of, um, like, especially for the terrible options of the time, but the options that like Japanese Americans had at that time of like every possible scenario, right. So my, my dad' ; s side, they-- the most common path. Like they went, they went to the camps and dealt with all of that. Um, but my mom' ; s side has two really interesting, uh, scenarios. My grandma was in Hawai' ; i right, at that time. So she, that was like a completely different experience from Japanese Americans who were on the mainland, Japanese Americans in Hawai' ; i. right. There was just so many Japanese in Hawai' ; i at that time that they couldn' ; t really do the same formula that they did on the mainland, but there was still like some, there was still like rounding up and they had to deal with like the aftermath of the prejudice that came from Pearl Harbor. But that' ; s like a very separate experience from mainland, mainland Japanese. My grandpa was living, um, on- in the Central Coast at the time and he was really young, but his family chose the option of like, ' ; no way, we can' ; t go to these camps' ; . Like, so they fled. Which is, I mean, it' ; s kind of similar, like they had to lose all their belongings. Very the same story as like tons of families, but they, instead of going along with the camps, they fled to Colorado. And so that' ; s, I mean it' ; s almost, the parallels are crazy. They like, it was like same like, all they could, whatever they could carry was all they took. They had to sell off everything. Um, and they fled to Colorado and were like sleeping in farms and stuff there. My grandpa gets really emotional when he talks about it, but like he said, actually that was like, he' ; s so grateful that they did that because like they lived in Colorado and like didn' ; t face a lot of prejudice there. Maybe just cause, I mean the spread of news was so different back then, but like, because they like, they found a great community out there. Um, but it' ; s interesting because his dad actually was the, the like president of, I forget what it was called, but something equivalent to like a like club that a few of them were in at the time. So he was actually like arrested by the FBI of course. No, no trial, no warrant, no anything, and taken to like a special camp, right, where they thought people of like prominence would be put, I mean that they would be x amount more likely to be like disloyal or whatever. But yeah, he didn' ; t get to see his, his dad, he said for like a year and a half I think, or something crazy like that until afterwards he went and met up with them in, in Colorado. AT: 07:47 So this, this was your, your maternal great grandfather? AN: 07:51 This was, yes. My, no, my maternal grandfather. Yeah. AT: 07:55 But the great, but his father... AN: 07:59 Oh yes, sorry. His father. Yeah- AT: 08:00 Okay. AN: 08:00 His father. AT: 08:01 Okay. AN: 08:01 Yeah. But yeah, and this, this all, I just know from my, from my maternal grandfather, but on my dad' ; s side, like very right, like his, my dad' ; s mom went to camp, she was in Poston, um, I believe. And my grandfather went there as well and he had very fortunate, and this is something that like they' ; ve talked about a lot, at least in the, I mean the hard part of unlocking this whole thing is like none of our, that generation really wanted to talk about it. Like it was just, it' ; s passed down in a very weird way I think just because it' ; s like I' ; m sure very painful to talk about and like they just like, well I forget what they explain is, the expression is. It' ; s like ' ; shikata ga nai' ; or something... AT: 08:46 Shikataganai AN: 08:46 Yeah, of like just ' ; can' ; t be helped' ; and they didn' ; t really want to talk about it. So a lot of this is like really anecdotal, the way it' ; s passed down to our generations. AT: 08:55 Sure. AN: 08:56 But um, yeah, my, my grandma on my dad' ; s side, her sister went just like went dark. They call it going dark and they told everyone that they were Chinese and they just went like kind of on the run. They just like cut contact with, with other Japanese like friends and family and were able to pass themselves off as Chinese and they didn' ; t reunite with my, my dad' ; s mom until like years and years later. But that' ; s like crazy and that' ; s, yeah. AT: 09:30 Do you have any more details about, um, like where exactly people went? Like, did your, um, dad' ; s family, did they go directly to Poston or did they go to uh, an assembly center first? AN: 09:45 Oh, I don' ; t, I don' ; t know if they went to, I mean I' ; m, I' ; m assuming they did. I just know that was the camp that they like- they were, they were a lot older than me, so like kind of what I was saying before, like the, our talks about this, were super limited, but yeah, I think that' ; s something that me and like my cousins and brother, like wish we would have had the opportunity to talk more with them about. But yeah, I mean it was just so, like such a painful thing for them to talk about, I think, that it wasn' ; t really like part of our main interactions. That' ; s why it' ; s important projects like these, right, where you- to be able to pass down that kind of that knowledge. But my, my dad' ; s family had, and I even saw a little note out there about it, like we' ; re very fortunate to, I mean people cause people, some families literally lost everything, right? But my dad' ; s family was very fortunate. They had, um, Italian neighbors that were like, I know, like very, uh, empathetic towards them, I think. And they like watched all of their, their business and like they kept all of their stuff so that they didn' ; t have to start from absolutely nothing when they got back, which is something that' ; s like, that part specifically has been passed down as like, that was like amazing. That changed the trajectory of like our family and my generations that they were able to like be very successful in business. Lose it, have to step away for two years or, or what, and then come back and not, not have to start from ashes. Right. Like, yeah. AT: 11:18 So what are some other, um, like memories or, or stories that have been passed down in your family about this? AN: 11:27 I think the biggest story that I' ; ve like really started to dig into recently is my, my mom' ; s dad and they experience of like intentionally deciding like, ' ; We are not going to go. We are going to do what it takes to not have to, to report to camp and like to like deciding that this is, this is wrong and we will make an intentional decision,' ; right. To like, to change the path of what our family is going to do. And he said like that was, that was a very, and that' ; s, I mean it was like exacerbated by the fact that like his dad got taken away to like a special camp and it was a very like, difficult times for the mom and the six kids to have to like make it from California to Colorado on their own with like nothing, right. They sold all their stuff. That' ; s something he talks about a lot, which is like kind of the opposite of what my dad' ; s, dad' ; s dad had. Right. Like they had to sell everything for pennies on the dollar, which is just the more typical thing. Um, but yeah, just, I mean he' ; s talked about, he' ; s talked- that' ; s the most out of all my grandparents that I' ; ve been able to talk with someone about, like it was very difficult for them to make that journey, uh, by themselves with nothing. They were like sleep from place to place every night on their way there and occasionally would just meet people who were empathetic towards them. Um, which I think is, is, is an important part to tell, right? Like they couldn' ; t have done that without the kindness of others being being, I mean kindness of non-Japanese, right. Being, being something that let them do that and just sleep in farms, place to place until they could get there. I mean when you get there, what do you do? Like, you know, you have nothing. And then his mom got a job, they all had to get jobs in order to, to raise money and try and build a life. But, but they were able to, I mean, and that' ; s eventually where he met my grandma, right? It was in Colorado. And I think that that' ; s pretty, that' ; s a cool underlying aspect of the story is like how the kindness of non Japanese Americans like shines through. Right? Like in, in, in a part where like even just letting a Japanese family stay in your farm, which is not a high cost to you at that time. Like that' ; s a huge thing for them. I don' ; t know. I think that' ; s, that' ; s a pretty cool part of the story. And that' ; s the one I' ; ve talked with him most about. AT: 14:13 Mhm. Um, do you have any idea where in Colorado they...? AN: 14:17 I don' ; t remember the specific city, no. I' ; d have to look at, look at like a map and actually think about it, yeah. AT: 14:25 Huh. And then how about after, after the war or maybe your dad' ; s family' ; s place after camp, where did people end up going? AN: 14:35 Uh, Stockton. Stockton is where they, that is a really, that is like the American dream of a story, I think. Like they came back from camp and were already in like a better position than others I think just because of like that. I mean the theme, I have like the kindness of that one family who was like willing to help them, like not lose everything and man, they made some incredible like business decisions back then, I think. They, it was my dad' ; s dad and his five brothers and one sister. Um, and they pooled their money and made some like strategic investments and bought land that has really like gone up in value since then. But that is like the true American dream of like they came with nothing. And like the meritocracy of America, like ' ; you, if you work hard, you can have a shot to, to change the like destiny of your family' ; . And that' ; s why like their parents had come to America, honestly. AT: 15:44 Hm. Um, and so, so that was your dad' ; s family that went to Stockton? AN: 15:50 Mhm, yup. AT: 15:50 Um, and then how about for the folks who were in Colorado? Did they stay there? AN: 15:56 No, they eventually moved, came back and moved to LA. Um, and then that' ; s kinda where my mom' ; s generation was born and then moved up to Sacramento, yeah. AT: 16:09 Um, was there any particular reason that they chose LA? AN: 16:14 I th- I just think economic opportunity and educational opportunity, that' ; s something that' ; s really important for like that side of the family in terms of like unlocking opportunities you didn' ; t have for your kids. Um, but my grandpa served in the navy and uh, my grandma was a nurse for a long time and they worked really hard to, to let their kids have better opportunities than they did. I mean I think that' ; s, that' ; s like another huge part of this story is how that whole experience shaped the mentality of the people who are kids during that time. Like our grandparents' ; generation. Um, that' ; s, that' ; s something that I think drives me a lot actually is like, their, is like their desire to see things changed from how they experienced and how they doubled down and were kind of determined to change things for their kids. That' ; s something that I think our generation has benefited a lot from like is their, is their drive and their tenacity. AT: 17:27 How do you think that' ; s, um, can you explain that a little more? Like how, how has, how exactly has that, um, helps shape our upbringing, hence later generations. AN: 17:41 I think it really, I mean it provided us opportunities that they, I mean we just, the fact that can live where we live and have the kind of like educational opportunities that we have to be able to kind of like trace that back towards the kindness, the kindness of a select few people and like see to look back in retrospective and see how like how important that was. To me that' ; s, that' ; s like a huge part of this story and it' ; s kind of crazy. Like that minimal acts of kindness could have such like a, a lasting impact or even like generations down the line. AT: 18:22 Um, can you tell me a little bit more, um, about your, your own personal interest or investment in, in learning about your family' ; s story and what that process has been like, kind of piecing together? AN: 18:37 Yeah, I would say probably it' ; s only, it' ; s only been something I' ; ve been interested in the last few years, I think. And like really like wanting to learn. Just ' ; cause I mean like what I talked about earlier, it' ; s not something that is widely circulated and comes up, you know, at dinner with your grandparents or something like that. It' ; s something you kind of have to dig into just because it' ; s like such a painful thing. It' ; s like a very like, visceral emotional thing. I think that' ; s the most emotional I' ; ve seen my grandparents like ever- AT: 19:09 When they AN: 19:09 Um, when they' ; re speaking about just that time period in general. Um, but I think it' ; s really important that this, this story gets told. I mean, especially in the world we live in today, I think it' ; s something that that generation understandingly had a lot of pain from. But from our generation we should think of it as like, that' ; s a source of strength that we should, we should be able to, to draw from and from, from their stories, especially as, as it' ; s being told through like various through art forms and through like ways that beyond just the Japanese community can learn from it. That' ; s hugely important. I think that' ; s something that, that, uh, our generation is kind of tasked with, right, is like making it known to a wider, a wider group of people other than just our generation- that shouldn' ; t fall to that, the generation that experienced it, right. It shouldn' ; t be, understandably, shouldn' ; t be something that they, they have to share with people, but that' ; s, that' ; s our task is to like spread knowledge of these, this event and these events. And it' ; s, no, it' ; s no, never been more important than, than today. I think. AT: 20:29 Um, can, can you unpack that a little bit more? So, so why, why is there, it, it sounds like you' ; re talking about there' ; s almost a, a responsibility- AN: 20:42 Mhm. AT: 20:42 That kind of falls on um Sansei and Yonsei and I guess Gosei generations, um, to make sure people know about this history. So, um, can you tell me a little bit more about, about that responsibility and, and why that' ; s an important... AN: 21:02 Yeah. AT: 21:02 Act, I guess? AN: 21:03 I mean, I think because it' ; s, I think often it' ; s something that gets airbrushed a little bit, especially in, in like education. I mean, my wife is from Portland, is from a very predominantly white town and they have half a paragraph about it in history books. I think that' ; s crazy. Um, especially when you think about like some people just don' ; t understand that the, the uh, the impact that it' ; s had that- and how long it' ; s lasted, right. Um, I think it' ; s definitely something that gets gilded over in the way it' ; s taught to ge- future generations and just ' ; cause it' ; s a mistake. Like that' ; s a theme too is like those people who all, all went to camps, like it was totally proven afterwards that they, none, not a single one, like they were all very loyal to America. And I think it' ; s our like responsibility to make sure that type of discrimination is never taken that far. Uh, again. AT: 22:10 And you, you mentioned that, you know, um, especially today this is a really critical task. Why, why is it so important today in particular? AN: 22:25 I mean, I think the parallels to discrimination against marginalized groups are just terrifyingly sad. Uh, I think it' ; s hugely important for Asian, I mean Japanese communities and probably Asian communities in general that have kind of always been adjacent to those types of like really important conversations and like, uh, rights to be, to like thrust ourselves into those conversations, right? As people, one of the foremost examples and like American history that this happened to, to really like be advocates and uh, let our voices be heard and tell stories like this and like we need to be more forthright in the parallels to it, right? It shouldn' ; t be- we shouldn' ; t have to cover up how similar it is to some of the scary things that we see happening today, right? Like, this in the grand scheme of things was not a long time ago. This was very, very recent in US history and I think to have mistakes as one thing, but not to learn from those mistakes as, as a nation and as a people and Japanese Americans should feel like as much empathy as anyone for for marginalized groups, Muslims, African American communities that we see today. We should, we should let this inform our empathy for those groups. Let the experiences of our grandparents really put us, you know, right in the middle instead of on the sidelines. I think that' ; s like really important. AT: 24:12 Um, do you think something like this um, could ever happen again in the US? AN: 24:23 Not if we don' ; t let it. AT: 24:34 Um, one other thing I, I wanted to ask you was about, um you had mentioned your, your wife' ; s experience in, you know, quote unquote learning about the incarceration and that there was just a mention. Um, what was your own particular experience in learning about it? Did you hear in school or from your family or...? AN: 24:58 I think probably from my family before in school. Um, but yeah, I think in general it' ; s just something that' ; s kind of glossed over as not a huge, I mean, especially when you contrast it to some of the- like the Holocaust and things that are very covered in schools. Uh, we look, we being America, look back very fondly on our own mistakes sometimes I think. Which is not, you know, a virtue of anything that we aren' ; t learning from it. But I think that' ; s it' ; s, I mean, it' ; s important. I, I would say that like learning about this and understanding, I mean, the crazy thing is you' ; ll, you' ; d get people who even to this day would semi try and justify it. Um, which is insane in that the first response to that is not anything but empathy is just ludicrous. Yeah. I think it' ; s very important to, to educate people on what happened. And, I mean, at the root of it, like American citizens put Americans citizens in camp. That' ; s crazy. And it' ; s crazy that some people would try to this day to try and explain that away. Um, and to, to justify it. Yeah. AT: 26:24 So you came a long way from California to come see this show. AN: 26:29 Mhm. AT: 26:29 So, I' ; m wondering if you could tell me a little bit about, um, some of your reactions to it. AN: 26:36 I think I really enjoyed the photography, uh, part of it because images of like are just so powerful. I think when you see people who look like you...well first off, Japanese Americans of that age just had so much style. They were just killing it. I think that' ; s like my sneak take away from, from this exhibit is like, man, those people they looked good man. Um, but I mean I think that' ; s being able to see photographs and know that like famous photo-- Ansel Adams-- famous photographers were all really like, saw this as a huge inflection point at that time. Even, um, seeing that I think is what had the most impact to me and just seeing the quotes, it' ; s all, it' ; s all put together in a very like, uh, difficult way. I think that really makes people who' ; ve come to the exhibit, wrestle with it and like really put themselves in those, in the shoes of those people. I mean, it' ; s just difficult to imagine honestly what like that that could even happen, especially with some of that, the lives that we lead now. AT: 27:51 Are there any particular photographs that stood out to you? AN: 27:55 I think the one of the, it' ; s a whole other conversation, but the 442nd mom, that' ; s just, that' ; s, I mean, I don' ; t know. I had a lump in my throat the whole time walking around. But I think that' ; s the one that I could just cry for hours in front of probably. But it was like some of those, those stories out of the 442nd are like some of the most incredible, incredible things I' ; ve ever heard. I think. Yeah. I mean those are literally people who believed in America when America didn' ; t believe in them. That' ; s, that' ; s nuts, man. Yeah. That' ; s like super, super powerful, yeah. AT: 28:28 Uh, well thank you so much for, for coming in and for seeing the show AN: 28:34 Sure, yeah. I hope some of it is useful. AT: 28:37 Um, before we completely wrap up, are there any last things that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? AN: 28:43 No, I don' ; t think so. I, I' ; m really glad, I mean, that this story is being told and like, yeah, we, I came all the way from California because I wanted to see it and, and uh experience it. So I' ; m really appreciative that people are, people are telling this story and making sure that it' ; s, it' ; s heard this is sufficiently more than a half a paragraph in a, in a school textbook. And for that, I' ; m really thankful. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NakashimaAlec20171118.xml NakashimaAlec20171118.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Nakashima, Alec (11/18/2017)
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2017-11-18
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Ueunten, JJ
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nicholls, Lourdes
Interview Keyword
Yonsei
Harding, George
Tsuchiya, Kiyotsugu
Manzanar
Block 20
Visual Education Museum
Pre-WWII Chicago
OHMS Object Text
5.4 4/26/2021 Nicholls, Lourdes (4/26/2021) 1:07:40 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yonsei Harding, George Tsuchiya, Kiyotsugu Manzanar Block 20 Visual Education Museum Pre-WWII Chicago Nicholls, Lourdes Ueunten, JJ video 1:|17(8)|30(6)|45(2)|54(9)|64(12)|73(10)|87(4)|95(14)|105(9)|114(2)|120(16)|128(9)|137(3)|145(7)|152(11)|160(9)|177(4)|192(8)|202(9)|214(5)|226(4)|235(4)|260(8)|269(2)|277(9)|292(10)|302(6)|311(1)|322(14)|333(14)|341(3)|356(12)|365(4)|401(3)|415(14)|429(1)|441(5)|457(4)|469(11)|478(10)|498(1)|505(15)|516(11)|527(2)|538(14)|555(10)|568(1)|583(13)|593(14)|602(13)|611(14)|626(3)|639(8)|647(5)|655(7)|667(13)|679(15)|693(6)|704(10)|719(6)|729(1)|741(12)|757(12)|772(5)|779(1)|788(14)|804(4) 0 https://vimeo.com/574592707/576ce06808 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/574592707?h=576ce06808" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Lourdes Nicholls is a fourth-generation Japanese American born and raised in California. Her maternal grandfather, Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya was one of the few Japanese Americans in the Chicagoland area prior to World War II, and after completing his education at the Art Institute of Chicago, worked as a museum curator for George Harding, Jr.. After George Harding, Jr. passed away in 1939, the family moved to Los Angeles. Shortly following their move, they were incarcerated at Manzanar, where Lourdes JJ Ueunten (JJU): Today is April 26, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N. Clark St. in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Lourdes Nicholls. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay, what is your full name? Lourdes Nicholls (LN): Lourdes Michelle Nicholls... Kaczkowski. I' ; m, I' ; m marr-- I go, I don' ; t go by my married last name. (laughs) JJU: And what is your year of birth? LN: 1967. JJU: And where were you born? LN: I was born in Culver City, CA. JJU: Were you or any members of your family incarcerated during World War II? LN: My mother was born in February 1945 at Manzanar, and her parents and her sister and grandmother lived together in Block 20 a--at Manzanar. JJU: And when did your family first come to the US? LN: Okay, so my mother' ; s father Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya came to the United States by himself at 15 or 16 years old in 1916, and took a ship to Los Angeles to find his father who was working at a flower shop in Los Angeles, and to get him to go back to Japan. Because he had been in the United States for maybe 10 years, and was not coming back to Japan. And my grandfather was the first boy in five generations, and h--and was sent to the United States to bring him, his father back even though he didn' ; t really know his father ' ; cause he was just a little boy when he left. JJU: Did he go back? LN: He went back, but my grandfather stayed, and again you know he came by himself at 15 or 16 years old not knowing English and... I can' ; t even imagine... I mean he found him luckily, but you know it wasn' ; t a text or a phone call I don' ; t think, it was like letters and finding him. JJU: And when and how did your family come to live in Chicago? LN: So my grandfather lived in Los Angeles in the late teens and early 20s. He went, he went through the United States, he went to Oklahoma to become... To find oil. And what he said was that the Standard Oil Company set up oil rigs right next to where my grandfather and his uncle had property and sucked all the oil out and so my grandfather and his uncle ended up going north to Chicago, and my grandfather, who by the way originally wanted to be a dentist, ended up at art school at the Art Institute of Chicago in about 1922 or 1923. JJU: Wow, okay. And do you know, kind of when your grandmother came? LN: So my-- my grandmother was born in 1911, in Sacramento. Her parents were from Japan, and her mother was born in 1890, her name was Chiyo Konishi. And she was... She came to the United States to get married to my grandmother' ; s father, who was 25 years older than my great-grandmother. Yeah, I' ; m not sure if she knew that when she... You know, signed up for that but anyway, yeah so they were both born in Japan, and my grandmother was born in Sacramento. JJU: Do you know what motivated them to immigrate? I-I know your your great-grandmother came to get married-- LN: Yes, my great grandfather... seems like he was like an actor. He had a lot of interests. He had a Go parlor in Los Angeles in their house I believe? And I think he was kind of a Jack-of-all-trades. I know that when the 1908 earthquake happened in San Francisco, which you know they were-- he was in the area, I guess he walked from San Francisco to Sacramento which is really far. To-- because he had nowhere else to go at that time. That' ; s what our family has said for generations, that he walked, he left San Francisco and walked to Sacramento. I don' ; t know, but they were in Sacramento and eventually went to Los Angeles. My grandmother and her sister who was born in 1912 were in a very strict household and their parents wouldn' ; t allow them to go to school if their horoscopes were not good. And they also had them work in silent movies. So my grandmother and her sister were in the Sessue Hayakawa movies as child, child actors. So, that was kind of a interesting life I guess, that they had. And I have a lot of photos of them from those movies, from the movies they were in. JJU: Wow. LN: And Sessue Hayakawa was in Chicago as well so he' ; s, he' ; s kind of a interesting character as well. JJU: Was-- Do you happen to know if your family was part of Japanese American communities before the war? LN: They... My grandmother' ; s family was in Little Tokyo in Los Angeles and they seem to have been very ingrained in that, in, in that community. My grandmother went to an integrated school in high school, she went to Lincoln High School in Los Angeles with some later... Marcus Welby I can' ; t think of his name now, he was a big star. So she, even though she was required to speak Japanese at home her parents had her, you know her and her sister in an integrated high school. And they graduated around 1928-29 the sisters. JJU: And, yeah do you mind speaking a little bit about the pre-war life in Chicago that you know about? LN: Sure, sure. So my grandfather came to Chicago in the early 1920s, and he went to the Art Institute, and there he met a man named George Harding Jr. who was a very eclectic, wealthy collector of arms and armor. And he really liked my grandfather, so he asked my grandfather to become his curator of his collection. And he lived at 4853 Lake Park Ave. which is in the Hyde Park-ish Kenwood neighborhood. The house has been destroyed now because it was going to be revitalized, that neighborhood was going to be changed. And so unfortunately, it' ; s not there, it' ; s an empty lot. But the house was a mansion, and George Harding actually I believe was the first person in Illinois to have a car. He had an airplane, he had, he would fly to Europe and all over the world to collect art pieces. And after World War I, there were a lot of families in Europe selling things, and he was able to take advantage of those things. I' ; ve read that the Hearst family and George Harding had a lot of competition between pieces of art. So my grandfather ended up being his curator, and I have a photo of him in the-- his little workshop. He would take care of the arms and armor in the collection. And he would give tours to presidents, vice presidents, Al Capone actually he, he told me about going there. In the, I think late 1920s, George Harding had wanted to dismantle a castle in Germany and bring it to Chicago but because that wasn' ; t allowed he actually built the Chicago in... He built the castle, and had it created in Chicago. My grandfather lived on the property, and you could see him actually in these photos in front. But he was kind of a Jack-of-all-trades, he gave tours, he cleaned armor, he lived on site, he met with people, he appraised things and yeah he had kind of a busy life. A very, you know, extravagant life I would say. My grandfather, you know, I have a lot of old photos of Chicago from the 1920' ; s through his eyes because he was living here, and... I know that he told me he would walk, I don' ; t know maybe 40 blocks to save maybe like $0.02 to, in order to mail something. He would-- instead of taking the streetcar he would, he would walk from 4800 South to the Loop which-- that' ; s pretty far, as you know. (laughs) And I think he was happy working there, he worked for George Harding for over 15 years, and then in 1939 George Harding unexpectedly died. And at that time, my grandfather didn' ; t know if he could continue working at the museum. There was a lot of drama, even though George Harding was married, he had a mistress who was taking over the business. And I think my grandfather was very uneasy about things, and he also, he-- my grandparents were married in 1936. Sorry, I' ; m jumping. But, and they were expecting a child in 1940, so when George Harding died there was a lot of-- you know, I' ; m sure a lot of stress about what they were gonna do. But so... That' ; s kind of the back story. My grand, my grandparents were married on December 7th 1936, which was five years before Pearl Harbor day. It was a Monday. I don' ; t know who gets married on Monday, but they got married, and they got married in Los Angeles. It was an arranged marriage, my grandfather was 36, my grandmother was 25. And they, I think that they got married on a Monday because of horoscope types of things, that' ; s what my idea is. And they came back to Chicago, and lived at the mansion. But in maybe a year or two after they came back to Chicago and they were living here, they opened a Japanese restaurant in Chicago which is pretty unique I would say. Because, I believe there were only 400 Japanese Americans in Chicago at that time, and they were two of them. So they opened this restaurant, the address is 5253 Cornell Ave. in Chicago. And this is a photo of them in the restaurant. They are on the left so-- with their friends. So I thought that was pretty unique because here' ; s the interior of the restaurant, I mean I don' ; t know of any Japanese restaurants you know, that were in business then. And it looks very elegant. Oh, I also brought, sorry, a picture of my grandfather at the Harding Museum with the armor that he worked on. And I recently found these brochures of the Harding Museum, which actually my grandparents boxed up, and when they were sent to Manzanar, they actually, you know, saved these albums because those things were probably going to be destroyed. So, so yeah, here' ; s another workshop photo, and here' ; s a, a castle photo of, I think that' ; s-- I think that' ; s George Harding right there. So, so even though I didn' ; t grow up in Chicago, I feel like something kind of brought me here. And that my grandfather loved it here, I think he was very happy here. But in 1940, my aunt was born, here in Chicago and because my grandfather' ; s job was in jeopardy, or not knowing you know what would happen to the museum, they moved to Los Angeles in August of 1940. And they thought it would be a temporary place for them because my grandfather was asked to run a museum in Manchuria, but my grandmother' ; s family thought it was very dangerous for them to go there so they stayed in Los Angeles. And because my grandfather was unable to find a job, he opened a garden nursery in Culver City. JJU: Wow, wow! LN: I know it' ; s a lot of info sorry! JJU: No, no, this is great! So did they, they had the restaurant after George Harding died? LN: They had the restaurant, I believe in like ' ; 37, ' ; 38 I think that they were doing it you know, at the same-- like maybe my grandmother was working there while my grandfather was working... But it may have been ' ; 39, my grandmother told my mother, and my mother told me that there were some anti-Japanese feelings at that time, and they felt that that' ; s why the restaurant wasn' ; t successful because even though we weren' ; t at war, people were not real open to that. I don' ; t know-- I, I' ; d love to know what, what was going on. JJU: And do, do you know, do you happen to know if they were in, kind of communication or community with other Japanese people here? LN: Good question, I know that they had their best friends. Fred Uno, who was in that photo that, they opened it together. But I, I don' ; t know, I think my grandfather was used to working with people that were not Japanese. My grandmother, I think she was adjusting to life in Chicago. It was very different than Los Angeles, I' ; m not sure... I wish I knew more, yeah-- JJU: Oh yeah, thanks for sharing that. That' ; s incredible. LN: It' ; s kind of-- Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s unique. JJU: Um yeah, so maybe moving into like, wartime incarceration maybe you' ; ve answered this but when and where was your family incarcerated? LN: So my family was... From what I know, my grandparents had this garden nursery, and I' ; ve seen photos of it, it was beautiful. It was not little, it was pretty large. My grandfather was told by one of his customers who worked for the FBI that... Maybe, right after Executive Order 9066 was the 19th of February 1942. That if he had a-- if he could go to Manzanar, that would be the " ; best place" ; . I don' ; t know, that' ; s, I have my grandfather saying that on tape, so... I don' ; t know why somebody would have said that, it' ; s really hard to know what, what would be a best place. I mean, it' ; s all horrible! But my grandparents were unable to sell their garden nursery, and finally my grandfather spoke with the milkman, and he said, " ; Would you like to buy it?" ; and my, and the milkman said, " ; I only have $75" ; . And so he sold the whole thing for $75, and they went to Manzanar on April 8th 1942. So they were some of the first people to arrive at Manzanar, and they were in block 20. I just recently found their tags. JJU: Wow. LN: Yeah, I knew they were in block 20 but it looks like they were in another block, and then they switched because maybe they were friends with the people there. Toyo Miyatake was in block 20 and Toyo Miyatake took my grandparent' ; s wedding photos in LA, so it' ; s kind of full circle. You know, they, they were married in 1936, and then in 1942 they' ; re neighbors with their wedding photographer who did a lot of things to help people at Manzanar. JJU: Are there, did your family kind of tell, share any stories with you about their time there? LN: So when I was in high school, I was required to interview my grandparents, so I did get a lot of information. They, my grandfather started the visual education museum at Manzanar, which, which I have a picture of... Well let me see, I have this photo that shows my grandfather here, and here' ; s Toyo Miyatake. He started the visual education museum to show the incarcerees what life was like outside of camp because they didn' ; t know how long they were going to be there. Ralph Merritt, who ran Manzanar, asked my grandfather to start a museum and collect things to show children and adults and work on art. So even though this is a blurry photo, I mean it' ; s a copy, that' ; s what he did. He, he knew, Ralph Merritt knew that he had this museum experience, so he asked him to use that, his experience at Manzanar. And in this book about Manzanar, my grandfather put together the Ansel Adams exhibit, and he' ; s, he' ; s mentioned in this book as well. JJU: The Ansel Adams exhibit like at Manzanar? LN: At Manzanar. Yes, yes, so Ansel Adams went to Manzanar four times, and my grandfather put together this exhibit of his work at the visual education museum. JJU: So were these like the Ansel Adam photos that he took of Manzanar, LN: Yes, yes. JJU: and then it was a-- LN: Yes. JJU: --it was like a...Wow, okay! LN: Yeah, so those are the photos that were at the-- Then, they came from the exhibit, you know that were blown up. Those photos, my grandfather had the first showing of those photos at Manzanar. JJU: That' ; s amazing... Yeah, any I don' ; t any other-- I know that you' ; ve kind of shared, and your mom' ; s shared, but any other stories that you' ; d like to share about kind of what you know about their life at Manzanar? LN: So, all I know... My grandmother said that the food was horrible, the thing that always stuck to me is that she said that there was, there wasn' ; t any butter and that they would give you basically like Crisco grease, and little yellow packets to color that grease so that you would think that it was butter. That is really... I mean when I was 16 and I heard that I thought, " ; Ugh, yeah that was really gross" ; . And I know that the wind and the dust were horrible, they talked about that, my grandfather actually wrote a document about starting the museum and how the conditions were, I mean he made light of it, but it was actually pretty sad. And again, he went from you know, working with millions of dollars worth of inventory and, to working and collecting butterflies and bugs and putting them in little displays, so... My mom always said that he was very depressed after that experience because, it was just so humiliating, you know, to, to be like that. My grandmother was the secretary of the museum, so she was paid, my grandfather was paid I think $21 a month to be the head of the museum, which was I think the same that doctors got at Manzanar. It was considered a very prestigious job. My great-grandmother worked in the mess hall, and my mom said it was the only job she ever had in her whole life, but I don' ; t know how long she did that. And my aunt was two when she went to Manzanar, and she was five and a hal-- five, when she left, so those were her earliest childhood memories were there. She went, started kindergarten at... there. JJU: And your mom was born there? LN: My mom was born, yes February 26th 1945, and didn' ; t remember it but for her lifetime said that there was intergenerational trauma because of all that her parents had endured, yeah. JJU: Did, did she kind of, I mean she, she wouldn' ; t remember but I don' ; t know, do you wanna share a little bit more about you know what, what she thought of how, how that kind of got passed down? LN: Yeah, well I' ; m moving ahead a little bit, but my grandfather, right when the war was ending got a job in Oklahoma, Stillwater, Oklahoma, which is now Oklahoma State, teaching naval officers Japanese. And from there he became the translator for US War Crimes Trials, in Japan and went to Japan. And my mom and her whole family went to Japan, so... They had a very different life-- they never came back to Chicago. They... again, they went to Oklahoma, then they lived in Japan for two years, and when they finally came back to the US, they lived in Boyle Heights in Los Angeles. And my mom just said that my grandfather wasn' ; t able to get a job after that, that he-- you know, he had worked in a museum, he had been a translator, he was doing all of these things, and no one, no one wanted to hire him. She said that he sold vacuum cleaners door-to-door which didn' ; t last very long. But I mean, that' ; s pretty, pretty, pretty dire. He... Then opened a garden nursery again, and he had a lot of success with that but I don' ; t think he ever was able to do really what he wanted to do. Until, maybe in his 70s in Los Angeles, he opened a frame shop, which kind of gave h-- brought him back to the art world, and what he used to do. Yeah and he didn-- he worked there until his, maybe he started that in his 60s and then he worked at the frame shop he owned until his 8-- until he was 80 or or older, yeah. But my mom was, she said that growing up in Boyle Heights which was Japanese, and La-Latino you know she had a lot of friends of a lot of different backgrounds which she loved, but I think she had a strict household, and her dad was... I think people were very depressed. I think that her parents were depressed, even though they were trying to make it better. They seemed like they were, you know struggling for a bit, yeah. JJU: And so-- Do you know kind of like how old your mom was when they moved back to-- or to Boyle Heights? LN: To Boyle Heights she was about, I think she was four. I think it was 1949 and she went to Japanese school, she was a pianist, I mean her parents made her take piano very seriously. She was a top student, she skipped grades, she was, she kind of, she didn' ; t rebel against them but she, she went to college. They wanted her to go to UCLA, she went to Occidental where she met my dad. And you know, she, she wanted to live a little, a different life. She was, she, she had again, she thinks that she had intergenerational trauma from that experience. I thought I brought another picture go ahead, sorry. Oh! I think I left it in the car, sorry. I had one of our family, in Los Angeles with my grandparents, but I can' ; t find it. So... JJU: That' ; s okay, yeah I guess... Let' ; s see, and you kind of said in your form that your family had some kind of part in the redress movement, or that-- yeah. LN: I don' ; t know if my... That' ; s a good question ' ; cause I' ; m literally just filling out the form to see the testimonies. I don' ; t think that they testified but they did receive the redress check, and unfortunately my grandfather died August 26th 1990 and his check arrived that October. So even though he knew it was coming, he didn' ; t see it. I didn' ; t really talk with them about that. I think it' ; s really hard to, hard to think about. Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s sad. I mean I think my grandmother thought that it would, was never enough for all that they lost. Yeah, and I' ; m sure my grandfather thought the same. The ironic part is that if they had stayed in Chicago, they wouldn' ; t have been at Manzanar. Now, I' ; ll... You know, that' ; s hard to, hard to believe but it' ; s true. You know they-- the only reason that they were required to go is ' ; cause they moved, yeah. So, their lives would have been so different. JJU: Yeah NL: I mean still hard you know, but yeah... I don' ; t think that they ever really wanted to talk about Manzanar, until I had to do this school project. They really didn' ; t want to talk about it. JJU: When you did the school project, at that point were they willing, or did you kind of have to like... NL: They were willing, my mom and I flew from San Francisco to Los Angeles just to do this interview. And again, it was in 1982 and I had required questions and they answered them, but I' ; m sure that they were really, you know, ashamed of it. And my grandmother, the quote that I remember her saying is that, " ; Now that it' ; s over, I can remember the good things" ; . But obviously, you know it' ; s kind of like-- yeah a bad nightmare you know, so... Yeah, and having been to Manzanar numerous times I' ; m... Every time I go there I kind of you know, see new thing-- or notice new things so... I haven' ; t been there in the real cold, I' ; m usually there in like the springtime or summer when it' ; s really warm. But it' ; s got to-- it must have been a miserable place to be you know? And my grandmother was pregnant to-- too so, yeah. JJU: Yeah, thank you. I' ; m gonna move a-a little bit into like your life if that' ; s okay? LN: I thought it was all about them! (smiles) JJU: (laughs) No, it' ; s also about you! LN: (laughs) What!? JJU: Especially because you, you know you spend a lot of time kind of learning these stories and stuff. But also, if there' ; s other things that you want to share before I start asking you questions about yourself, that would be great. LN: Yeah, I, I think I' ; m in pretty good shape, I' ; m just disappointed, I had a picture that I, is sitting in my car so I might have to, I don' ; t know what-- if we take a break? JJU: You could take a break and you could get it? LN: Yeah I' ; m, it' ; s kind of an important... That was the first thing I grabbed, and now I don' ; t have it so... yeah. JJU: Yeah, do you want to take a quick break? LN: How am I doing? JJU: Or should we do later, like-- -- Other voice: Yeah! I just... JJU: Okay, but yeah, do you want to share those with us? LN: I was just, I' ; m-- First I' ; ll share my grandfather' ; s document while he was at Manzanar. Which is the history of the visual education museum, which he wrote on-- in May 1943 while he was at Manzanar: One hot day in August 1942 a desk piled with a few magazines, pictures from old calendars, and other, and a scissor were given to us... Sorry, I gotta start over I need my glasses. Can I have my-- Other voice: I' ; ll get them! LN: Okay, thank you. I' ; m sorry, this is going to be bad, I' ; m just going to, I' ; m-- I can, I kind of know it, but I need to-- Yeah! Yeah, they[glasses] might be right on top! Yeah, thank you. I' ; m sorry. Okay better, okay now I can really read it, okay. " ; One hot" ; Okay, so... I' ; ll start over, if you want? Okay, this document my grandfather wrote while he was incarcerated at Manzanar, May 1943 : History of the Visual Education Museum One hot day in August 1942 a desk piled with a few magazines, pictures torn from old calendars, and a scissor were given to me in the corner of the superintendent' ; s office to develop visual resources for Manzanar schools. In September, I was moved to block 2015 Library. There, my staff of workers were formed. Kango Takamura, artist, Toyo Miyatake, assistant director, and Carole Kageyama, secretary. Our department began with a pile of old magazines for picture file, one live owl, and a mouse. While we collected insects to be mounted, Mr. Takamura painted the local wildflowers. When we opened our present museum at Block at 815, Block 815 in October, we began to write to various institutions and manufacturers for free materials on visual education which soon began to arrive, enabling us to have enough things to be displayed on one table. In our early days, the walls and floor were unlined. Dust and wind blew through the open seams of our buildings. We worked with-- with our coats on because the heat was inadequate. To add to our misery, the owl, the sparrow, and the snake died of cold. The mouse escaped and ate up our collection of insects. Yet we were not discouraged. We wandered around the center collecting everything from bugs to minerals. After five months of hard toil, our first exhibition on December 5th 1942 was a great success. Since then, we have held special exhibits every month. Today we have a permanent exhibit of local minerals, plants, wood carvings, posters, and handicrafts, and also a picture library of approximately 4000 mounted and unmounted pictures, models, slides, diagrams, globes, and other visual aids. The Manzanar public has had an opportunity to enjoy several interesting special exhibits such as Fine Arts, point rationing, relocation week, traveling exhibition, art exi-- exhibit, Know Your Manzanar, World of Science, etc. With the newly selected board of directors, we know that the day will be here soon when we will have a visual education museum of which Manzanar can be proud. -- Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya, Director, Visual Education. So, that kind of illustrates in a nice way probably, what, what he was doing or trying to do. And, at Manzanar, currently in one of the barracks, there' ; s a exhibit based on what he did so... Yeah. JJU: Whoa. LN: It' ; s hard, yeah. But he did it so... I' ; m very proud of him even though I' ; m sure it was depressing. Yeah. JJU: Have you ever connected with anyone who like remembers that museum? LN: I have, yes. My mom passed away unfortunately, about a year and a half ago, and before she died, she wanted to connect with Kayoko Wakita, who actually gave the eulogy at my grandfather' ; s funeral. And she has, I just spoke with her a couple months ago, and she had really nice things to say, yeah. But the museum, there are some pieces, you know, there are some pictures of exhibits they had a chrysanthemum-- you know people would grow flowers and be able to display them. They had a stick figure exhibit where you could cut-- whittle sticks and make shapes or animals out of them. So I mean people had to use whatever resources they had, and they couldn' ; t go to a store to- to do that. So, I think, you know he pivoted obviously. It' ; s like COVID right now, it' ; s like, what do you do? You know, I think he came up with-- there was one called Relocation Week that was, I think you were to show what you brought in your suitcase. Yeah, I have the poster from that exhibit, yeah... So, yeah you don' ; t really think about it, and the thing I say to people is that no one knew when World War II was going to end. You know, we know now, but it' ; s like, when is COVID gonna end? You know, right now we don' ; t... you know, we think maybe it' ; s over, or getting there? But yeah, who knows? So, it was a very uncertain time, and I' ; m just thankful that, I believe my family stored things in a Buddhist temple in LA and it wasn' ; t broken into, so-- I' ; m fortunate to have a lot of things that they probably didn' ; t bring to Manzanar, that they trusted other people to take care of. JJU: Wow. So yeah, that' ; s such a huge pivot that he made. LN: Yeah, huge pivot. I mean, I-I have pictures of him in like, you know suits, and doing all sorts of things in Chicago, and then he' ; s collecting bugs with mosquito nets, so-- JJU: Which I' ; m sure made like a huge difference for people who are in Manzanar, you know? LN: Yeah, yeah. JJU: Do you, I found that " ; what you brought in your suitcase" ; so interesting, do you know any other exhibits that they had that stand out to you? LN: The Relocation Week, the Ansel Adams exhibit, I have pictures of the chrysanthemums, they had two exhibits every month, so I mean he was, you know, busy. And they were thinking up new, new things for all sorts of people. And then, I do have a piece from the Manzanar Free Press about him, that other people kind of maybe they weren' ; t laughing at him about it, but they were kind of like, yeah, we' ; re not going to participate. But in the end, I think it really did help people, to show their things and, and be proud of it. Paintings... I have another quote, sorry, from the Manzanar Free Press that I am particularly proud of. And I think it, it is good for Chicago. So in June 1945, on the, on the cover of the Manzanar Free Press, I don' ; t know if you could see that. It says, " ; Tsuchiya to Aid Relocation Office" ; . " ; Continuing to employ interviewers with outside experience, the relocation division last week added Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya," ; my grandfather, " ; to it' ; s growing staff. Tsuchiya is well known for-- to center residents, as the past director of the Visual Education Museum. His experiences on the outside include approximately 4 months in Chicago," ; because he visited during World War II, " ; and another six months at Seabrook Farms on a trial indefinite leave. He will leave Manzanar only until he finds suitable employment." ; He wrote, he said " ; ' ; Chicago, the city of foreigners' ; , said Tsuchiya, ' ; offers far greater and more varied opportunities than California ever did. In general, this is true of the whole East.' ; Seabrook has done mu- much more than halfway in working things out for the evacuees. It is a fine place for persons who desire to do manual work, and have, many have received promotions. Speaking of the attitude of people in center, Tsuchiya expressed his own convictions in these words, ' ; Fear of the outside is the first thing that disappears from the mind once we go outside. Fear is a thing that has been the result of three years away from the world. There is no reason for fear.' ; " ; So, I think that it shows that he was trying to... give the incarceree' ; s hope that they would not, they, they could make it outside of Manzanar. Because, I' ; ve since learned, and I can understand that many people didn' ; t even want to leave Manzanar. And, because they didn' ; t have things to go back to. They didn' ; t have family perhaps, I mean I' ; m just ready to cry just thinking about that, because I can see why, you know after a while you just get used to the way it is. And, even people who are currently detained right now, I mean, it' ; s really opened my mind. Yeah, to that. Yeah. JJU: Yeah thank you. LN: Yeah so, I mean it' ; s nice to find these quotes that he was trying to lift people' ; s spirits, I think? And he was trying to illustrate that things were going to be okay. Now, he was from Chicago, so I' ; m sure he felt like this was a welcoming place. I believe it was, it' ; s just hard to know how, you know, how things were. I' ; m, I' ; m kind of surprised they didn' ; t come back to Chicago. But, yeah, it' ; s kind of, I think he always regretted-- I don' ; t think, I think the last time he was ever in Chicago was in the 40s. I don' ; t think he ever went back again. And I was just starting to possibly-- well, I was talking to him about Chicago right before he passed away, and he still knew all the streets, he knew, I mean he knew everything. So, yeah it' ; s sad. It would have been great if he could have come back, because the Art Institute now has the collection that the-- that George Harding had, so it' ; s now one of the most popular exhibits at the Art Institute, and that' ; s the, that' ; s the work, those are the items that he worked on. Yeah. JJU: So that' ; s like the armor exhibit-- LN: Yeah! JJU: In the, in the Art Institute. LN: Yeah, that' ; s the whole armor. Plus, there were, hundreds of other things that they owned, but the armor is really... If you walk through the Art Institute, and there' ; s some Remingtons some, little statues, like the Cowboys like with the guns and bronzes. Those were George Harding' ; s as well. And you' ; ll see at the Art Institute how many pieces there were. There was a musical, musical instrument exhibit, so my grandfather would clean these instruments, yeah. Yeah. JJU: And, you had a photo you wanted to share? LN: Oh right, so when you were saying I was going to, you wanted to talk about me. So this is my family in 1969, and Toyo Miyatake' ; s son Alan took this of my family in my grandparent' ; s house in Los Angeles. Here' ; s my grandfather, here' ; s me, here' ; s my dad, here' ; s my mom, my grandmother, my great-grandmother, my mother' ; s sister, and my cousin. And my uncle was sick that day and they took it without him, so-- Yeah. So-- JJU: The same photographer-- LN: Yes, so yeah so right here you could see Toyo Mikaytake, who was the most famous photographer other than Ansel Adams and Dorothea Lange at Manzanar. This is my grandparent' ; s house, and yeah it kind of comes full circle because Toyo took their wedding photo and then in the 60s, you know came and took these photos, yeah. JJU: So yeah, I-I kind of want to know h-how you made it to Chicago or the Chicago area? LN: So I, made it to Chicago, I was... I met my then boyfriend in college, and he moved to Chicago. And I was in graduate school, I finished graduate school, I said I' ; d never move to Chicago, and I' ; ve been here for 30 years now. Almost exactly 30 years. Yeah. So, yeah so the first time I went to the Art Institute in 1990, I-- my grandfather had just died in August, I went in September, and I walked in the Art Institute and I said, " ; This is what my grandfather worked on. These, this is it! This, he worked on these, these pieces." ; Even though I had only seen photos, and my husband at that-- my boyfriend at that time was like, " ; Yeah, right." ; I mean it' ; s kind of a crazy thing. But, I was so obsessed! I was like, " ; No, this is it, I know this is the stuff he worked on!" ; So I went to the head of the museum, I mean I went to the lobby and I demanded to talk to the people in charge. And the person that was in charge of the exhibit had just died in a car crash. And, I was... I didn' ; t know what to do, I was like, I kn-- I know this is, this is what he worked on. But, because my grandfather had just died, I couldn' ; t talk to anyone about it. And, it took years, but through a few coincidences, I was introduced to Gloria Groom, who is the head of the European Arts collection, I hope I have her title right, but she' ; s a neighbor of mine, our, our kids were in the same class in elementary school. And long story short, I showed her these albums and she connected me with Jonathan Tavares, who was working on recreating the arms and armor exhibit, so they used these photos from these albums to put the exhibit together. And yeah, so kind of, kind of all happened for a reason. I mean they, they didn' ; t know about a lot of things only because of these albums that they found out where the, where the armor was, what pieces, I mean all the armor kind of looks the same to me, sorry but it-- (shrugs) But, anyway, they know their armor, and they could identify all the different pieces. So, it felt, it felt good. It felt good to help, you know, a place like the Art Institute, and be a part of that exhibit. You know, even if I' ; m, I didn' ; t do anything, I just felt like we-- you know, these photos helped, my grandfather helped for over 15 years when he was with George Harding so-- JJU: And then, just backing up a little bit or-- So did you, oh I guess when and where did you grow up? LN: So I grew up in the Bay Area, I, I was born in Culver City, I lived in LA as a little girl. And then my family moved to Berkeley, and then they moved back to LA ' ; cause my dad went to graduate school at USC, and then we ended up in Oakland and Berkeley. So that' ; s where I went to elementary school, high school, junior high. JJU: And then did you grow up with Japanese or Japanese American family or friends nearby? LN: So when I lived in LA, my grandparents in this picture had a, had a house and then they had a rental house. I grew up in that rental house when I lived in LA, which was really great ' ; cause you have your grandparents and great-grandmother right next door. When I was in grammar school, when I was in like third or fourth grade, I really wanted to learn Japanese, and so I went to Japanese school. Even though my mom did not speak Japanese to me, even though she flu-- she spoke fluent Japanese, she just didn' ; t. And so I tried, that was not very successful. But I will say my daughter is fluent in Japanese, and has lived in Japan, and teaches Japanese now, so I feel like it just skipped a generation. (laughs) JJU: Did your family participate in Japanese American organizations or activities? LN: You know my mom really did not, I mean later in life she finally embraced her Japanese side, she joined a sansei group, I got her to go to Manzanar, a few, a few times we went to Manzanar. She went another time without me, but she was not, she did not feel very proud of her Japanese side. And my daughter is so proud to, to be part Japanese that my mom was just like really taken aback by it. And my mother finally started accepting that, and it felt really good. It' ; s just a shame that she passed away because it all, everything was kind of just coming together with, with my daughter. My mom was gonna go to Japan to go see her there, my mom was taking Japanese to re-, you know, re-engage her language skills, so, it was really-- It' ; s like a dagger in my heart every day that-- it just, you know that she isn' ; t here. Yeah. But, you made me think of something else. My mom was very driven, and kind of, I think she, I' ; m not gonna say, she wasn' ; t very proud of her Japanese side, so she just excelled in all the things she did. She was really, a hard worker. She worked for McKinsey and Company, she worked for Steve Jobs at Apple. And she, she retired when she was in her 40s. And then her second husband passed away kind of unexpectedly. And she decided to go to law school when she turned 50. And, she got a perfect score on her LSAT, she went to UC Berkeley, and became a lawyer. And she was a lawyer until she found out she had cancer. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that she was very driven, and a lot of that had to do with pleasing her parents and making them, you know, she was always trying to make them proud. Although, they weren' ; t real happy ' ; cause my parents actually eloped, and... because their parents weren' ; t happy about them getting married. I' ; m all over the place, sorry. JJU: Did you learn about the incarceration-- How did you learn about the incarceration? LN: I always heard my family talking about camp, and like a lot of people I thought it was like, a summer camp. But I guess it was probably around like 13, 14, 15 when I had to do this project, that I realized that camp was something different. So I think I, I always knew my mom was born at Manzanar, but I didn' ; t really know what that was. And I didn' ; t go to Manzanar until 2009. Even though I tried to get her to go v-- a lot of times. She did not want to go. But once we went, she loved it. Yeah, she loved it. And she went back multiple times, yeah. So, I think people, she thought it was going to be this really sad, sad place, but it was, you know, an inspiring place. And we' ; ve donated things to the Manzanar museum, so it' ; s nice to see you know, like this document, some posters, photos, things like that, yeah. JJU: And, and when you had to do this project, were you just like, I need to fly over there or was your mom like, let' ; s go-- You know, I-I guess how did that happen? LN: Yeah, I-- You know, it' ; s funny that we flew to Los Angeles just to do this interview because I guess we could' ; ve done it on the phone maybe back then? But, we flew to LA to do this interview, it was November, I mean it was-- And w- and I think my mom said, I' ; ve never heard my parents talk about camp, and now, I' ; m gonna hear what it was really like. So, she wanted to come with me, and we both, we both went. JJU: What was that like for you? LN: That was overwhelming, actually, I put my heart and soul into this pro-- this report, and honestly, you' ; re not going to believe me but-- I got really, really sick after that, like maybe, like, the flu or mono after that, and I' ; ve, I' ; ve never been sick a day since then. I' ; ve never missed work, I' ; ve never missed school, because-- I felt like that report, I put everything into that report, again, I was a sophomore in high school. You know. I' ; ve worked a lot harder on other things, but it was probably really emotionally difficult, that I didn' ; t realize that it was hard to hear those things, and learn new things about my grandparents that I had no idea. Yeah. JJU: Wow. Yeah, I-I guess like how do you see it relating to your own identity, like this family history that you have? LN: Yeah, I-- You know, I love talking about it, but again, like I' ; m almost about to cry right now because it' ; s-- It' ; s just been my little platform you know, it' ; s just been what I' ; ve been doing. Probably, I' ; ve been talking about it a while but the, " ; Then They Came For Me" ; exhibit, you know, Richard Cahan was so nice to ask for, if I had any items. And, my family had a letter that was in the exhibit that went to New York as well. It was a letter that a doctor wrote to my grandmother while she was at Manzanar, and it was really powerful to show maybe how naive and unknowledgeable people were about what was going on at the camps-- I' ; m sorry now I forgot your question. (laughs) JJU: Oh, how-- LN: Oh! Yeah, JJU: --does your family history relate to like your own identity? LN: So, I feel like I wear it on my sleeve, I feel like it' ; s a l-- it, it' ; s a l-- a big part of me. I mean I feel more Japanese probably than I did growing up, way more knowledgeable, way more proactive and outspoken about things. But I still have a lot of work to do probably, I still have a lot of learning to do. You know, I know a lot about Manzanar, I' ; ve been to Heart Mountain, I have not been to, I' ; ve, I' ; ve made it-- I want to go to every site in my lifetime. And I feel like I' ; m just, I don' ; t know, there' ; s, there' ; s a reason that these weird things happen to me. I' ; ve had a lot of really great coincidences, that I know are like, I don' ; t know, my grandparents or great-grandparents just like making things happen for me regarding this. Tomorrow I' ; m gonna be on a podcast, I mean, how does that happen? There' ; s a documentary about my family being worked on, I mean I' ; m very fortunate, but it' ; s hard to talk about, yeah. I think it' ; s hard because, there' ; s a lot of shame that my grandparents had you know so-- And my mom, oh, my mom broke down and cried at the " ; Then They Came For Me" ; exhibit, and I felt horrible because I brought her there, and she just fell apart. And, she said I' ; ve never cried about it, and she went to the exhibit, she was so... Taken aback by everything, that it just-- all of a sudden she just started crying. And so-- And my mom wasn' ; t a big crier like that, so-- Yeah, I think it' ; s, I mean, things, let' ; s face it, it' ; s 2021, things are changing, but it' ; s still hard to talk about. Yeah. JJU: Yeah, thanks so much for talking with us, you know? LN: Oh! Sorry I' ; m like, whoooo, yeah, but I think it' ; s... it' ; s good. It' ; s good. JJU: Do you feel kind of connected to other Japanese American people, groups in Chicago? LN: I, I feel really lucky to be a part of Nikkei Uprising, even though I don' ; t feel like I' ; m not as active as I' ; d like to be. I' ; m currently cleaning out my mom' ; s house, which is again, a dagger in the heart because she saved everything. And, how do you get rid of these things, or how do you sort through them? But, I would like to be a lot more active, I' ; m, hopeful that I will have time to be more active, and I like everybody that' ; s involved, I' ; m, I' ; m so impressed with everyone all the time. I just feel like I' ; m, dropping the ball. (laughs) JJU: (laughs) That' ; s not true! I don' ; t know if this is within my interview job-- LN: Oh yeah right! JJU: --But, that' ; s not true at all! LN: No, no thank you! I, I' ; m learning a lot, I' ; m learning a lot, I have a lot of, I' ; m, I have s-some Japanese friends, I mean being bi-racial, I have a lot of bi-racial friends too. Growing up in Berkeley, it was very common to have people from every, I mean, my friends are of all different backgrounds. So, I feel lucky. Yeah. JJU: And, I know you touched on this earlier but is, is there kind of, ways that you feel, I-I think you spoke about how your mom kind of felt the intergenerational impacts-- NL: Yeah. JJU: --of incarceration, like how do you feel it' ; s kind of, in your generation, your children-- NL: I feel like, it' ; s interesting, my mom had the intergenerational trauma, I feel like I' ; m-- I' ; m not going to say warming up to that, but it' ; s, it' ; s been something that, I' ; ve recognized more and more, especially with learning about HR40 and, and I had testimony for reparations for African Americans. I don' ; t feel as much like I have endured what she has endured, but I know it' ; s in me. And I' ; m just, always searching for more information about my family and what they went through. I know I' ; m probably not answering this very well. But, my children are very aware of what happened at Manzanar, they' ; ve been there, they preach it. So, that feels right. I mean, for me to not know these things unless I t-- had the interview with my grandparents, that' ; s kind of, a shame. However I will say that the last time I ever saw my grandfather, I tape recorded his life story, thank goodness, because, I use that as what I know about him, and that' ; s how I know these, crazy stories about, about him. I mean, because I have them on tape. So I' ; m very lucky that I even taped that, because if he had just told it to me, I probably wouldn' ; t have even remembered all the information that he gave. But, I think that everybody has intergenerational trauma, it' ; s just some people, it' ; s really, right here, and maybe some people it' ; s, down a little bit. Yeah. JJU: Yeah. We' ; re getting kinda, toward the end of our time, so I just, if-- wanted to ask if there' ; s anything you really want to share? LN: Umm, JJU: I-I feel like we could ask you questions forever! LN: I know! I-I-I feel like I' ; ve touched on, a lot of things that are important to me, I mean, I still think it' ; s fascinating that I, I have Chicago roots, you know from, 100 years ago. But, I' ; d like to, know more about what happened, it' ; s just really hard to do that. And, I just think it' ; s remarkable that my grandfather could have accomplished so many things even though perhaps he didn' ; t think he did, I don' ; t know, tha-- it just breaks my heart. He really did do a lot. Yeah, so, and my mom too, I think, she really wasn' ; t, she was too young to pass away, she passed away at 74, my grandfather died at 90. You know, I thought she' ; d, live a long time, so-- Yeah, you just, life is short, so you just gotta, do the right thing. That' ; s what I would say. JJU: Alright, yeah, we' ; ll close there. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NichollsLourdes20210426.xml NichollsLourdes20210426.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
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Nicholls, Lourdes (4/26/2021)
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Lourdes Nicholls is a fourth-generation Japanese American born and raised in California. Her maternal grandfather, Kiyotsugu Tsuchiya was one of the few Japanese Americans in the Chicagoland area prior to World War II, and after completing his education at the Art Institute of Chicago, worked as a museum curator for George Harding, Jr.. After George Harding, Jr. passed away in 1939, the family moved to Los Angeles. Shortly following their move, they were incarcerated at Manzanar, where Lourdes’ mother was born, and her grandfather served as the Director of the Visual Education Museum. Lourdes herself was born in Culver City, California, and grew up in Northern California. Following her graduate studies, she moved to Chicago, and although she had never previously lived here herself, she found herself connected to the city through her family’s personal ties. Through a series of coincidences she was connected with a museum curator currently at the Art Institute, and was able to contribute to an exhibit that held the same arms and armor that were once worked on by her grandfather. An active member of the Nikkei community, Lourdes continues to share her family history and legacy, and is a part of Nikkei Uprising.
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2021-04-26
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video
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Series: Oral History Project
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Oba, Ken
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Poston
Fukuoka
JASC
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/2/2021 Oba, Ken (6/2/2021) 48:26:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Sansei Poston Fukuoka JASC Oba, Ken Lincoln, Emma video 1:|26(10)|42(12)|60(4)|73(9)|95(12)|111(15)|128(13)|143(1)|154(7)|170(3)|185(1)|206(6)|219(1)|232(10)|244(14)|261(4)|275(5)|290(3)|305(13)|317(17)|331(1)|342(1)|356(1)|370(3)|388(4)|400(8)|411(15)|423(6)|434(10)|447(15)|462(9)|476(5)|488(9)|501(15)|511(4)|527(5)|538(13)|550(16)|565(7)|582(1)|596(1)|608(5)|632(4)|644(11)|657(6)|671(7)|685(9)|701(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/562844491/a71d373653 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/562844491?h=a71d373653" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ken Oba, a Chicago-born sansei, shares memories of growing up on the South Side in the Hyde Park and Avalon Park neighborhoods. His parents, born in Los Angeles, CA and Honolulu, HI, were both incarcerated at Poston during WWII before resettling in Chicago, but rarely spoke of their experiences. Ken discusses the ways in which his Japanese American identity did and did not impact his life, shares his thoughts on the importance of all of the ethnic identities that his multiracial children and grandchildren possess, and describes his motivations for volunteering at a variety of organizations post-retirement. Of particular note are Ken's descriptions of his experiences visiting Poston and visiting Japan as an adult. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is June 2nd, 2021. And this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Kenneth Oba. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Let' ; s get started. So we' ; re going to start with just some background questions. Ken Oba: Sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: And if you could get us going by stating your full name, please. Ken Oba: My full name is Kenneth Kaoru Oba. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what is your year of birth? Ken Oba: 1951. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Ken Oba: In Chicago, Illinois. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did you also grow up in Chicago? Ken Oba: Yes, all my life. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were your parents and grandparents born and raised? Ken Oba: My father was born in Los Angeles, California and my mother was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. And I believe all their parents were, were born in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know what kind of work your grandparents were doing in Hawaii and in Los Angeles? Ken Oba: I don' ; t know at all the grandparents in, in Hawaii. I don' ; t know much about my mother' ; s side. But my father' ; s side, I' ; m almost positive that, you know they, they had a farm near Fukuoka, so I assume they were, that they were farmers. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your father' ; s family remain in Los Angeles all the way up until World War II? Ken Oba: No. My father, he was the oldest of, he had two brothers and one sister. And, when he graduated from high school, I forget the year, his mother, be my, my grandmother, was killed in an automobile accident. And then I think it was a few years after that, then my grandfather took you know, all the, all the kids back to kind of the home in Japan, near, near Fukuoka. But then, then sometime after that, then my dad came back to the, came back to the U.S. and then it was followed by his, the next oldest brother. And so they were here in the U.S. during World War II. And then another brother and then the sister remained in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: So the family was split? Ken Oba: Exactly. Emma Saito Lincoln: On opposite sides of that war. Do you know what prompted your dad to come back to the U.S.? Ken Oba: I' ; ll say, I don' ; t know exactly. But, but I kind of think you know, he was born and you know, was raised in Los Angeles and I think he wasn' ; t necessarily, I' ; ll say, that thrilled to you know, to b-- to be living in Japan. It was just really a very different life you know in Los Angeles... You know, it was a city, and Fukuoka was out in the country, you know a farm. And I, I think it was kind of, you know, I don' ; t want to say difficult, but I, I think you know, he, he kind of longed to come back to the U.S. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know if he spoke Japanese? Did he grow up speaking Japanese? Ken Oba: I believe he, he did. He and my mother you know, never spoke Japanese at home, you know, really rarely. But I knew he knew how to speak Japanese. So I assume you know either, knew before or you know, lear-- you know he' ; s probably able to speak Japanese when he was in, in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: Mhmm. So when Pearl Harbor happened and the U.S. and Japan were at war with each other, it was your father and one of his brothers who were living here in the U.S.? Ken Oba: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. Ken Oba: Yeah his, you know the, you know it was his next oldest brother, named Masao. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then they were within the exclusion zone. They were, were they sent to incarceration camps? Ken Oba: Right. So my dad, he was in Poston. That' ; s a camp in Arizona you know, near the California border. And a couple years ago, my wife and I, we were in Phoenix you know vacationing for the winter and we, we drove to Poston. There' ; s not much there. But then my uncle, you know Mas, he was in the camp in Manzanar, California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your parents ever talk about what happened during the war? Ken Oba: Not really. Not really, no. Neither my, my dad and then my mom, she passed away when I was a, a freshman in high school. You know, but you know really, she never, you know she never said anything about the camp. But she w--, she was also in Poston. Emma Saito Lincoln: So she' ; d grown up in Hawaii. Had she then come to the mainland? Ken Oba: Right. She w-- she was, I believe, living in Los Angeles. But really, I don' ; t know in a way that much, you know that, that much about her. But you know, I, I' ; m really positive she was living in Los Angeles at, at the time that the you know war, you know war broke out. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then so after, both of your parents were in Poston, and after that, did they come straight to Chicago or... Ken Oba: I believe they, they came straight to Chicago. And again, I' ; m only kind of guessing that you know, maybe they didn' ; t want to or maybe there' ; s no reason to go back to the, to the West Coast. But they both, you know came, I believe, directly, directly to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: And were they already married at that point or was that, did that happen after? Ken Oba: They weren' ; t married in, in camp. So I, I' ; m almost positi--, well, really, I, I' ; m positive they got married when, when they came, came to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: So if this isn' ; t something that your parents talked about, when you were growing up, were you even aware that your parents had been incarcerated or that many Japanese Americans had been incarcerated? Ken Oba: No, not, not, not, not really. I have to admit, I don' ; t remember when you know I kind of learned of that because you know I don' ; t think it was something you know we learned you know in grammar school or high school. I have to admit I' ; m not exactly sure when. I would say I was more... you know more adultish than a kid that, you know when I kind of became aware. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you feel now that you have a pretty clear understanding of what happened during World War II, to Japanese Americans? Ken Oba: In a way, I' ; d say no. You know I, I' ; ve read you know some books. I' ; ve read some... You know, I' ; ve heard people speak. But I, I' ; d say it' ; s really hard to, you know... You can get an understanding overall what happened, you know the people being incarcerated in various, in various camps. But like in terms of their lives you know... You know I' ; ll say I, I really can' ; t you know imagine. It seemed like it was awfully, you know, awfully, awfully difficult you know, being uprooted and you know being in you know a hostile you know situation kind of, in, in many, you know in many respects. Emma Saito Lincoln: Given what you know now as an adult about the incarceration experience, are there things that you experienced or that you observed with your own parents that you think might be a result of that history? Ken Oba: In a way, I, I guess generally, I would say no. My dad, you know he, you know I' ; ll say kind of embraced you know the, the government knowing, you know what was good, good for you. And then you know when I was you know say, you know college age and you know I grew up in you know the ' ; 70s and you know Vietnam War protests. And you know not that I was you know radical, but like the idea of like you know, not necessarily accepting what the government was saying. But my, you know my father, he seemed to be more of a mind that, yeah, the government knows best and you know it was hard for me to kind of understand that, given that, well, the government had put him and the brother and you know others in, in, in, in the camps you know really you know under like, I' ; ll say like false pretenses you know? So, and then my mom, again, I don' ; t think any kind of conversation ever came up. You know she was a nurse, and you know I just knew she was my mom and you know... But there was... I' ; d say there really wasn' ; t anything like that. Emma Saito Lincoln: So where, where in Chicago were your parents living? Ken Oba: On the South Side, in Hyde Park, which is you know... The most prominent things there are like Museum of Science and Industry and University of Chicago. We lived, I think at 51st Street and Blackstone, in Hyde Park until I was you know I think like six years old. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember much about that home? Ken Oba: The things I remember, there was a fire one time. You know not in our unit but in the building, and firefighters came and broke a lot of windows and there was all sorts of excitement. But, but it was like by the lakefront and we used to go to the park there and that was you know, that was, that, that was a lot of fun. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you lived in Hyde Park, were there any other Japanese or Japanese American families nearby? Ken Oba: I' ; m sure there were. But you know I was, like I said, we lived there until I was, say five. So, you know, I didn' ; t really socialize that much. It was like, you know sometimes I go to the park, you know try to, try to play baseball or I don' ; t think I was riding, you know I don' ; t think I was riding a bike at that point. But I have to say, really, I, I' ; m sure, you know looking back, I know there were other Japanese in the neighborhood. But I' ; ll say we didn' ; t necessarily, necessarily, know, know them. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you, for example, you weren' ; t living in a building that had, you know, predominantly was occupied by other Japanese families? Ken Oba: No. No, yeah, no. But nearby, then my uncle, you know the other brother, Mas, you know, he, he lived nearby as, as well. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then when your family moved, where did they move to? Ken Oba: To further south, 81st and Woodlawn. You know, I think it' ; s the Avalon Park neighborhood. And we lived there really through all my formative years, you know childhood years. And I graduated high school, graduated college and lived there for a couple years after, after I was working. Then I moved to the North Side just ' ; cause a lot of people I knew, you know moved to the North Side. And then my dad, you know, who was retired at the time, he moved to Anaheim, California. So that was, then that was it. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were growing up, you mentioned your mother was a nurse. What was your father' ; s occupation? Ken Oba: He was a tool and die designer and he worked at either a company or for Bally, which was, became pretty big in making pinball machines because sometimes we had, not pinball machines but like, these smaller arcade games at our house. But he was a tool and die designer. And then later on he did the same thing for a company that made, like weather stripping. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you have any really strong memories of growing up on the South Side? Ken Oba: Yeah. I' ; d say all my, you know, I' ; d say my childhood memories of you know, I' ; ll just say I was typical, I would say like American boy. You know, most of my time was you know, was outside and you know, you know we would play, just every kind of sport. Baseball, football, basketball. In the winter, we' ; d ice skate. You know, it was great. There were, you know a big park nearby and there were plenty of, you know mainly other boys to you know, to, to, to play with. So, I remember, you know really very fondly, I had a great time. Emma Saito Lincoln: How would you characterize the relationship that you had with your parents? Ken Oba: I' ; d say it was very, v-very good. Unfortunately, I' ; ll say I didn' ; t know my mom. You know, wish I could have, you know known her longer. My dad, really, you know, I' ; d say he really made our family. You know, he, he didn' ; t go to college, you know so I think he took, you know, well, it wouldn' ; t be online classes at the time, but, you know I think you know, somehow he was able to become a tool and die designer. He also fixed, you know watches. But, you know he set, you know the stage for like, you know me going to college and my brother going to college. And so I really appreciate that. But I have to say, you know up until, I' ; ll say, even until the end when he was getting older and, you know obviously, I, I was an adult, you know I was always the little kid that, you know he was gonna, you know he would, he would tell me what to do you know, no matter, no matter what it came to. You know, and so I have to say now that I' ; m a grandfather, you know I' ; ll say I try to have a little... I' ; ll take that perspective when I' ; m dealing with my, my two kids. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you have the opportunity to know any of your own grandparents? Ken Oba: No. No, not... ' ; Cause I never met my father' ; s, you know, grandfather. I did meet my mother' ; s mother. You know, she lived in Los Angeles you know and so on vacations we, we visited there. And so I, so I did, I did meet her. Probably the main thing I remember she had a, a parrot you know that would talk and, you know make a lot of noises. And we thought, " ; Boy, that' ; s pretty, you know, that w--, that was pretty interesting." ; I think she lived not too far from Japantown, in Los Angeles. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were growing up, did your parents socialize with any other Japanese Americans that, that you know of? Ken Oba: I' ; d say mainly at the New Year' ; s holidays. You know, my parents, I think primarily my mom, would make, you know Japanese dishes and then we would go to other, the homes of other Japanese families and they would come to our house. But I' ; d say it was primarily like at the, at, at the holidays. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your family belong to any Japanese American organizations? Ken Oba: I know my, my dad, you know, I guess I forget you know, how, how I know that he w-- he, he was a member at some point of the Japanese American, you know Service Committee. I, I don' ; t know, know about my mom, but I don' ; t necessarily remember them being active or my dad being active, you know, because the JASC was also located on the North Side of the, the city. But never remember... ' ; cause the first time I remember coming to the JASC was when I moved to the North Side and I came, you know, they would have blood drives and I would come, come for that. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were growing up, were you particularly aware of your identity as a Japanese American? Ken Oba: Well, I' ; d say obviously I knew I was Japanese. But there wasn' ; t, you know like, I' ; d say that, that, you know compelling or strong component of my you know, my, my, my personality. You know, I' ; ll say often that like, " ; Oh, I wish I was taller." ; You know, but, you know? But I' ; d say not necessarily because we didn' ; t go to you know a Japanese church, or you know I never learned to speak Japanese. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were you aware that there was a Japanese American community in Chicago or that there were Japanese American churches? Ken Oba: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I' ; d say particularly like in, even when we moved to Avalon Park that there was a, you know a Japanese community in Hyde Park. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you mentioned New Years. Were there any other sort of aspects of Japanese culture that your parents incorporated into your home life? Ken Oba: Well, they would make some, some Japanese dishes, you know foods. But that wasn' ; t like the vast majority. But they would, they would make some, you know, chicken teriyaki and, you know fish dishes. And I don' ; t think sushi so much because now I can see that' ; s kind of, kind of more time consuming to, to, to do. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were there any shops or restaurants that you remember from the South Side? Ken Oba: The only shop I remember is the grocery store. It was in Hyde Park, called Franklin Food. And that was there for a long time. I can remember going there and you know, well my dad carrying these big, I don' ; t know how heavy they were, they were like 30-pound or 50-pound you know, bags of rice and you know we would use, we would use that. But I remember Franklin Food was the main. I don' ; t remember any, necessarily any restaurants or, or anything... Or, or anything like that. I really, I really don' ; t. Emma Saito Lincoln: And during that time when you were growing up, did you or anyone in your family ever experience racism or bias? Ken Oba: I would say, I would say no. I' ; ll say as I got to be like in high school, I, I became more aware of bias. But not against myself or Japanese but more against you know well it' ; d be African Americans that you know had started moving into the South Side. And you know, again, I kinda witnessed, you know although I didn' ; t know it, that like the white flight as Caucasian homeowners you know, moved, moved away and... But really, but I, you know I know there were tensions there. And then when I was in high school when Martin Luther King was, was assassinated, that was, that was pretty tense you know? We were taken, it was pretty far from our high school home and you know getting on the bus. And, you know that was, you know so I became aware of... But just as a general of you know, kind of race relations, especially on the, on the South Side and kind of the coming of black gangs. You know, primarily at that time it was the Blackstone Rangers you know were becoming say like a, a thing a little bit. Emma Saito Lincoln: So I think, why don' ; t we transition to talking a little bit more about your path into adulthood and, and how your life took shape after high school. So, maybe if you could walk me through what you did after high school and then your move to the North Side. Ken Oba: Well really there isn' ; t... There isn' ; t very much you know. I, I started, you know my work career was, even in this day and age was pretty limited in terms of-- You know, I, I worked for the federal government as, as an auditor really through my whole, you know, whole, whole career. And, but then in terms of other things, you know really, I' ; ll say, I don' ; t know why, but I had, did have a sense of like community service. So then when I was, you know started working, which didn' ; t necessarily have anything necessarily to do with it, I, I started like donating blood, and then I, I started work--, you know not working for, but I was a big brother in the organization, Big Brothers, Big Sisters of Metropolitan Chicago. So I was a big brother to eventually like three young boys, one of whom was Japanese, and you know, he, he lived on, on the North Side, here. And I was also involved in the, what' ; s the... it' ; s the one that' ; s kind of opposite in the spectrum, the organization that deals with the, the elderly, you know elderly, elderly shut-in. Kind of... I can' ; t remember the name right now, but I know, you know I, actually I, actually I did some of their office work for, for a while. Emma Saito Lincoln: And somewhere along the way, you got married? Ken Oba: Yeah, I got married. You know, I was living on North Side. Met my wife you know, Kathy. You know she' ; s Irish, Irish Catholic, you know which was, you know kinda... You know, that does--, you know necessarily mean that much you know to, to me either way. I just remember you know our first date we went to you know kind a well known Japanese restaurant, Matsuya on Clark Street, near Wrigley Field. And then after that you know, she said she was sick. So, (laughs) so I didn' ; t know what to think about how things might proceed after that. But, you know she had said it was, wasn' ; t anything she ate at the restaurant or with me. And then kind of fast forwarding, you know we got, we got married, we had you know two kids, a boy and a girl. And fortunately, they, they' ; re grown up now. You know our daughter' ; s you know married and lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and has two, two little girls of her own, our granddaughters and we' ; re really, a lot of our time is spent you know doting on them. And our son is married and he and his wife live in Highland Park. They don' ; t, they don' ; t have kids, have kids yet. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you feel very welcomed by your wife' ; s family? Ken Oba: Oh, yes. Yeah. No really, really very much. You know and it was again, kind of looking at it, you know her father worked for the railroad for, for a long time, but kind of more important to that question, like one of his brothers had been killed you know in the Pacific theater in World War II. You know, but you know fortunately, you know they didn' ; t, they didn' ; t make a connection or you know that, you know t-to me or anything like that. And they were all, they were really very welcoming to me. And we spent many holidays you know at their house ' ; cause you know kinda by that time, after a while my dad was, was in California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And have you always lived in Chicago? Ken Oba: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: This whole time? Was that a choice to stay here or is it just sort of how, how it happened? Ken Oba: I, I' ; d say both. I mean there was really, you know all like my family was here, my friends were here and you know I didn' ; t, I was happy here. I had, you know for, for me, a good job and there wasn' ; t anything compelling to you know g-go elsewhere, you know? Especially after I met my wife, well then you know we wanted to... You know, she coincidentally grew up on the South Side of Chicago though we didn' ; t know each other, each other then. But we both loved Chicago but lived here all my life so-- (laughs) Emma Saito Lincoln: While you were raising your children, did you and your wife make any conscious effort to pass on your Japanese heritage to the children? Ken Oba: I' ; d say to the extent that we, we could, you know ' ; cause I' ; ll say since my Japanese heritage, I' ; ll say it was pretty limited, you know not speaking Japanese, you know, you know I' ; ll say not knowing a lot, a lot about the culture. But you know I, obviously I, you know, you know we, you know imparted to them that obviously they' ; re, they' ; re, they' ; re Japanese and you know they were ol--, when they were old enough, you know we explained about the camps and you know that my grand-- my, my parents had you know, had, had been in the camps. And I' ; ll say it was really important t-to them because they were both, you know in college, they were history majors. You know, kind of, and then my daughter being, you know she' ; s a principal at a charter school in San Jose. So I think from a education standpoint, you know she really, that' ; s kind of important to her. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you or your children taken any steps to try to reclaim some of that heritage that was lost between the generations? Ken Oba: I guess I' ; d have to say no, you know. ' ; Cause some of it is, you know my wife' ; s heritage is you know, Irish, Irish Catholic. Our kids went to a Catholic elementary school, then... You know, so-- So I guess what I' ; m saying is like you know my wife' ; s heritage is you know to me, just as important. And then my daughter, you know her husband coincidentally, he' ; s Irish, you know. So, I don' ; t know what that, what, what that means. And then our son, his wife is Cuban and I think probably German, primarily Cuban. And so, you know their heritage is, you know important too. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you ever had the opportunity to travel to Japan? Ken Oba: Yes. Took me, took me a long time. But finally, in 2013, my wife and I, we went to Japan, and it was kind of a group of us. My brother Wayne, who' ; s like three years younger, he went. But it was all arranged by my cousin Katie, who had grown up in Japan. You know, her mother was my dad' ; s sister. And, so she grew up in Japan. Then when she was going to college, she came and attended Northwestern University in, in Evanston. But she' ; s really like the family member that you know she lived everywhere, you know and she' ; s traveled everywhere. She' ; s gone to the Himalayas, she gone to Machu Picchu. And, but she had lived in Japan for a long time even though she had gone back and, and had lived in Tokyo. So she was used to arranging these like visits and showing people around. But, but anyway, at the time, you know she was living in, in the U.S. But then she arranged like a whole, you know, like three or four week you know, visit and we went all around and you know she had it all planned out. You know, we would, everything we were going to do every day, you know the subway we were going to take to here and the events, and-- But anyway, so we did eventually go to Fukuoka and see the, the family farm. And, so that was pretty, that, that was pretty interesting. So it' ; s kind of complicated in terms of-- The short version is my Uncle Masateru, he lives there. And his one, he has two daughters and one daughter lives in a house, you know also on the farm. The other daughter lives I think in the Fukuoka area. But what it was, was my grandfather took the family back to Japan. He remarried and had one daughter, then she married. But because in Japan she was going to be like the end of the Oba line, then Uncle Masateru, he took the Oba as, as his last name. But then she passed away. And then so he, he, he' ; s the one that, that lives at the, at the farm. You know, they don' ; t farm. I think they lease the, the farming, the fields or something like that. But he, he lives there in, in the house. Emma Saito Lincoln: What was, what was the experience like for you emotionally, going to Japan and experiencing it for the first time? Ken Oba: Well first, you know Japan was just you know just wonderful you know in terms of like the sights and sounds and... But you know especially going to you know Fukuoka to see where you know the you know, you know, what my dad' ; s family had, had grown up was, you know really interesting to see that' ; s where they had, had lived and you know made, made their lives and eventually decided to you know come to the U.S. That was really, you know that was really emotional you know, to, to, to see that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were you mistaken for Japanese while you were there? Ken Oba: All the time. You know and so that' ; s why that, we' ; d go to the hotels and I' ; d be with my wife and then we' ; d wanna, you know, need directions or ask at the desk and then inevitably, you know, they would start speaking Japanese and I' ; d be embarrassed and say, say, " ; I don' ; t speak Japanese." ; You know, ' ; cause in a way I was advised, actually by the person that was cutting my hair who was Japanese, I said I was going to Japan and her name was Kimi. And so I said, " ; Oh, maybe I should learn some Japanese phrases." ; But she advised against that because they said if I start saying like a little bit in Japanese, well they' ; ll think, " ; Oh okay, then let' ; s keep..." ; And so I just say, you know " ; I don' ; t speak." ; And I' ; ll say, you know in the way that was true because you know kind of unrelated to our Japan trip, my wife and I went to Prague because our daughter was studying abroad there. And then I said, " ; Oh okay, I' ; ll be, I' ; ll be good." ; And I learned a few words in Czech and then so I started talking you know to some of the people in stores... And then--And then I had to say, " ; No, that' ; s all I know!" ; you know! (laughs) So anyway, that' ; s kind of a long answer for that. But obviously, I was mistaken for you know being you know, really Japanese you know all, all, all the time. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we' ; ll switch gears a little bit and talk about your involvement here at JASC. And for several years now, you' ; ve been a volunteer here. And I' ; m curious to know, since it sounds like other than the blood drive, you weren' ; t particularly engaged with JASC or other JA organizations. So what motivated you to get involved, in retirement? Ken Oba: Well, after I retired you know I wanted to, looking for something to do and then for a couple years I volunteered at the Catholic high school that subsequently is closed, that was near our house. And actually, the principal of the Catholic grammar school where my kids went, she was working in that office. So, really it was, you know so I would work there and really it was, really it was pretty fun. It was like a block away. And so, then that was pretty--, but the school was closed you know due to low enrollment. So I kind of, I knew of the JASC and so then I just thought, " ; Well, that' ; d be a worthwhile and fun thing to do." ; So then I came by and filled out a form and you know that was probably in, you know probably six or seven years ago now. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what kinds of projects have you been involved in? Ken Oba: (laughs) Kind of all sorts of things. Initially, I would say, I, I kind of worked for the, the controller. But mainly, not doing accounting or anything but designing like forms you know to tally information for some of the, some of the, some of the different programs. And one of those was the chore housekeeping, which now has grown to be such a, a, a big thing, you know? But, so I was primarily, primarily doing that, designing like these, mainly like Excel spreadsheets to keep track of, you know, different, different things. And then, I don' ; t know, I was kind of getting tired of that. And then Karen Kanemoto was a Legacy Center director at the time and there were a couple archivists and they were scanning these, you know photo collections. And you know, so... you know I could see what they were doing. And so I said " ; Well, maybe I could do that." ; So then they trained me to scan all these photos from the different, different collections. And then over time, all the JASC employees that were part of that, you know, Karen, Karen left and then the archivists, they went on to bet-better things. So I was, in a way, in charge of that. As, as other volunteers would come, I would train them and you know continue scanning, scanning of the collections. Well, that' ; s kind of over with. But now I still work on these spreadsheets for the chore housekeeping and for the adult day service. Emma Saito Lincoln: What keeps you coming back to JASC? Ken Oba: Well really, I, I' ; d say it' ; s like the people. It' ; s you know the people, you know I' ; ve met like, you know so many nice people here, and really it' ; s a lot of fun and they have the events. You know it' ; s wonderful when they have, you know here in the warehouse, like the ADS has their parties and they have other, you know other events and really, it' ; s, you know their mission is really wonderful. But you know really, I' ; d say like, you know the people are really so, you know so, so, so nice. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what do you value most about JASC' ; s role in the Japanese American community? Ken Oba: I' ; d say like for honoring the Resettlers. But also like the... What am I trying to say? Just honoring like the, the Japane-- honoring and promoting like the Japanese culture. They have all the programs, like you know the language programs and, well they used to have ikebana and you know things you know things like that to kind of you know, preserve and perpetuate the Japanese culture. But you know I' ; ve seen it you know kind of shifted into, you know kind of-- Because they have to, like more modern issues of like social justice and you know I, I think that' ; s really, really wonderful, really. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think, let' ; s talk a little bit about what your family experienced during the war. And, and I know you don' ; t have a lot of details about that time period because your parents chose not to discuss it with you. Is there anything that looking back now, you wish you could ask your parents? Ken Oba: Well now, I w-- I would' ; ve been more interested in knowing about like their, the life in you know camps. You know like say you can read about it, and, and hear people, you know hear people talk about it. But it would be most compelling for me to hear my parents describe, well, they, they weren' ; t my parents at time, but hear them describe what their lives you know you know were like and... You know good, bad or indifferent. It' ; d be... ' ; Cause to me, I just picture it as being awfully hard and I, I' ; m just amazed they were able to... you know like a lot of you know resettlers from the camps really make, make a life for themselves, you know? It just seemed like it was, you know I don' ; t know how like my wife er-- my mom you know became a nurse and you know it just seems you know, pretty, pretty, pretty amazing to me. So I say I had it pretty easy. Just seemed like go to school, go to college, get a job. But, you know I, I' ; d like to ask ' ; em like how, you know kind of how life was in the camp and you know how it, how they felt about how they kind of felt about that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you or your family members participated in any reunions or, or pilgrimages? I know you mentioned you and your wife stopped at Poston. But have you participated in any of the more organized gatherings? Ken Oba: No, not, not, not really. Because in a way I, I guess I, you know, maybe I misunderstand what they are at times. But I thought some of them were like for the survivors of the camps. Well, you know obviously that' ; s not, you know not the case anymore. But you know maybe there are, are some where it' ; s not just the survivors or, or something like that. But really, really I, I' ; ve been to the JASC when they' ; ve had talks about the camps and then this was a while ago, I think. It was actually Daniel Inouye, you know he spoke, spoke here about his experience in the camps, and, you know and stuff. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you stopped at Poston, you said there wasn' ; t much there... Ken Oba: No, it was, it was... We would' ; ve passed right by it unless we knew what we were looking for, that there was like a, like the main, not the structure but the thing of note, it' ; s like a sculpture. It' ; s like a gun barrel pointed, you know up. You know, but it' ; s just really a small, roadside thing. So unless you' ; re looking for that you know you, you might pass it because all the buildings, you know they' ; re... Well, the original buildings I think are almost all gone, that were out of, made out of wood. The ones that were of you know brick or something other than wood. But they' ; re in like terrible condition. They were all fenced around, you couldn' ; t get, you, you couldn' ; t, you, you couldn' ; t get close to them, but... Emma Saito Lincoln: How did that make you feel, when you arrived at that site and that' ; s what you found? Ken Oba: Well, I thought it was too bad because I know at some of the camps although I haven' ; t been there, like I think at Manzanar and there are a few others I think maybe they' ; ve... You know ' ; cause, ' ; cause I' ; ve been to the Japanese American National Museum and, and they have, I don' ; t know if they' ; re like recreations or of some of the, the camps. So, so I, I thought that at some of the camps, they have a little bit more preserved of the camp itself. But the most compelling thing at Poston was, you know all the camps probably have a story. But you know at Poston, it was like either the only or one of the few of those on Bureau of Indian Affairs Land. And what it was, was that land you know was on the Indian reservation, Colorado, Colorado River Indian tribes. But the land was pretty arid and you know, nothing would grow. So someone at at the BIA had the idea of well, locate the camp here on the reservation, use the labor from the, you know the internees to irrigate the land. And it' ; s now it, you know it, it' ; s just like you just see these green fields all over. But, so it was really, you know they made the land livable and you know good farming, you know farming, farming wise. And so then obviously, that' ; s been turned back over to the you know to the tribes and you know tribes and stuff. But it makes me sad that like, you know that the internees get you know kind of taken advantage of you know, you know kind of in multiple ways. You know they' ; re uprooted and then they' ; re like, not forced labor, but it was like, " ; Well, here' ; s what you, what you' ; re going to have do." ; Because it was a movie, it' ; s called " ; Passing Poston" ; . You know, I thought that was really pretty compelling. We saw that years ago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know if your parents, well I guess it would be your father, received redress payment? Ken Oba: H-he did. Emma Saito Lincoln: And an apology letter. Ken Oba: He did, but my mother didn' ; t ' ; cause she was deceased because you had to be surviving, but my dad, dad did. Emma Saito Lincoln: And at that time, were you very aware or did you understand what the redress movement was about? Ken Oba: I' ; d say yes. Yeah, I was. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you remember how your father reacted when he received his check and his letter? Ken Oba: I think he was happy obviously to you know get, get the money. I don' ; t know if you know the apology meant you know that, that much to him or, or anything like that. I think I do have that letter in you know in his, you know a few of his you know papers. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think maybe to wrap up here, I have a few questions sort of looking, looking forward into the future. And, what would you most like your children and your grandchildren and future generations to know about your own life but also about your family' ; s history? Ken Oba: Well, tell you the truth, I don' ; t think you know for, for my life, I just hope, hope they know that you know I did our, you know my wife and I did our best to, you know for our kids and you know our, our, our grandkids. But I' ; d say in terms of like a more dramatic you know struggle and effort, you know that was you know like my parents... But also like my, my, my wife' ; s parents. So that' ; s why I, I don' ; t you know kind of emphasize you know what my parents did. But it was the same thing with my wife' ; s parents you know they... You know long ago, they had come from Ireland you know and had to deal with, you know at the time, you know kind of you know discrimination in, in, in their own right. So it' ; s more like to my kids of, of recognizing that you know kind of in terms of social justice that you know people want to come to America and you know they, they deserve that right to make their lives here and you know you need to you know you need to kind of respect you know, respect that as citizens of the world I think. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what would you like to see happening in the Chicago Japanese American community today and into the future? Ken Oba: I think it' ; s kind of difficult ' ; cause they' ; re... I think the Japanese American community is you know kind of dwindling just ' ; cause you know like, you know... But I' ; d say t-to you know to honor, you know I' ; d say the people that came to Chicago and... But the Japanese culture, that' ; s why a lot of the things that JASC does I think are, are really, are really wonderful. Especially like we' ; re seeing here, like the Tampopo, you know program, I think that' ; s, that' ; s really wonderful. But also with the eye that that' ; s like how, you know what all people want that you know come here, whether they come from you know, Mexico or the Middle East and you know to really you know kind, kind of embrace that. Again, it' ; s like citizens of the world ' ; cause I think that' ; s you know, I think that' ; s what' ; s more important going forward. Emma Saito Lincoln: Would you say that your, your own relationship with the Japanese American community has, has changed over time? Ken Oba: I' ; ll say I understand it a bit more, especially you know being here at the JASC and you know attending a number of the events, and you know just seeing what the JASC does on a, on a daily basis. So I, it' ; s given me like a lot of, you know a lot of appreciation. And then one aspect of that is like, well, they haven' ; t been here for a while now, but like the Judo group that was here, you know just, just seeing you know that as part of you know the culture is, you know interesting. Emma Saito Lincoln: Since some of the work that you' ; ve done here as a volunteer was with the Legacy Center collections, I' ; d like to know why you think the Japanese American Legacy Center-- Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center matters? Ken Oba: Well I think the, you know I' ; m primarily familiar with the, the photo, you know the photo collections, but I think they really document you know an important period you know for those families. But also you know historically for Japanese in Chicago and you know what they, what they did growing up. And, you know I, I really think that' ; s important, and so that you know their, you know maybe members of their family or people that knew them can view that. But also you know people you know interested in, you know history or I want to say, I don' ; t know if it' ; s like social science, but you know they can kind of see well this is, you know how the people, how, how, how they kind of lived. Emma Saito Lincoln: And to close things out here, what do you love most about living in Chicago? Ken Oba: ' ; Cause it has all the good memories of you know me growing up, and raising my kids, meeting my wife. You know it' ; s, it' ; s just really, it' ; s just really, it' ; s just really home, you know I just really, you know ' ; cause it' ; s the only place I' ; ve known as, as home. I love going to the West Coast, but you know really, really love coming back to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Well, I think that' ; s, that' ; s it for my questions. Thank you very much. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ObaKen20210602.xml ObaKen20210602.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ObaKen20210602.xml
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oba, Ken (6/2/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Oba, a Chicago-born sansei, shares memories of growing up on the South Side in the Hyde Park and Avalon Park neighborhoods. His parents, born in Los Angeles, CA and Honolulu, HI, were both incarcerated at Poston during WWII before resettling in Chicago, but rarely spoke of their experiences. Ken discusses the ways in which his Japanese American identity did and did not impact his life, shares his thoughts on the importance of all of the ethnic identities that his multiracial children and grandchildren possess, and describes his motivations for volunteering at a variety of organizations post-retirement. Of particular note are Ken's descriptions of his experiences visiting Poston and visiting Japan as an adult.
Date
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2021-06-02
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Oral History Project
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/a7053e553aa230a3c0fb44f1bcc32896.png
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Oda, Stanley
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/16/2017 Oda, Stanley (11/16/2017) 1:26:01 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Oda, Stanley Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/308362089 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/308362089?h=a348d0676f" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you just state your full name? Stanley Oda: 00:00:02 Sure. My name is Stanley Oda. Uh, I was born in Chicago and, uh, I still live in Chicago. AT: 00:00:09 Okay. And, um, when, when is your birthday? SO: 00:00:12 Birthday is August 16th, 1952. So I' ; m 65 years old. Uh, yeah, just I was born in Chicago. Uh, I think it was Wesley Memorial Hospital on the South Side. Yeah. My family actually resettled on the South Side. So, uh, for the first, like 17 years of my life, I grew up on the South Side. AT: 00:00:34 Okay. Whereabouts on the South Side? SO: 00:00:35 It was on 42nd place and Berkeley Avenue, which is, I guess you' ; d consider that the Oakland [inaudible] neighborhood maybe. Uh, and yeah, so that' ; s where I lived. AT: 00:00:49 And, um, so like I mentioned, we' ; re interested in hearing about, um, your family, your parents in front of your family' ; s experiences during the war. So where were your parents from originally? SO: 00:01:05 Uh, they were actually born - my parents were born in California. Uh, you know, that' ; s a little vague to me. I would say my dad maybe in Visalia and maybe possibly my mom, but I' ; m not, that one I' ; m not sure about. Uh, they were, uh, my dad was born in 1919 and my mom was born in 1913 or ' ; 19, yeah, 1913. AT: 00:01:31 In what part of California is that? SO: 00:01:33 Oh, that' ; s kind of northern, uh, around I would guess around the Sacramento area, somewhere around there. You know, what little east of, uh, east of San Francisco area more in the, in the middle of the state, you know, more mid-state. AT: 00:01:49 And um, how about your grandparents? Do you know about where they live? SO: 00:01:54 They were in the Hiroshima area. Uh, yeah, I' ; m a little vague. I don' ; t know a whole lot about them. Uh, I never, you know, they were dead by the time I was born, so I don' ; t really, I never met them or knew them. Uh, but yeah, my family is from the Hiroshima area. AT: 00:02:12 So both your mom' ; s and your dad' ; s - SO: 00:02:14 Yes, yes. AT: 00:02:16 Do you have any idea when they came to the US or was it just your parents? SO: 00:02:22 Uh, no, I don' ; t actually, I would guess that they came - since my dad was born in 1919 - I would guess they came maybe in the, you know, early teens, maybe something like that. AT: 00:02:38 And, um, what do you know about their, their lives in California growing up before the war? SO: 00:02:47 Uh, they were actually Kibei, so they were, even though they were born in California, they, they probably spent only the first two or three years, maybe longer, maybe up to four, uh, and then they went back to Japan and they were actually went to school and were raised in Japan. And then they came back in the mid-thirties, like around 1936 or so. They came, they came back to California. Uh, so I mean, they kinda knew English, but they also really knew Japanese for a while. So, uh, I know we' ; ll get into this later, but during the, during the war, uh, you know, my dad was in the MIS, so, uh, because of his knowledge of Japanese, I mean, he was a fluent Japanese speaker, so he was, uh, you know, so was, it was easier for him to, to do that job. AT: 00:03:35 Hmm. And do you have any idea or sense of what, um, brought them back to the U.S.? SO: 00:03:43 I would say that, since they were American citizens I think they, they, uh, wanted to come back, uh, partly I think that was one of the reasons, but, uh, you know, my dad had three other brothers and they all did the same thing. They were all born in California, but they went back to Japan and they were raised in Japan. But, uh, they all came back around 18, 19 years old. And, and that was I believe, Japan at the time had conscription going on. So at 19, you had to register or join or whatever. So, so, you know, so to avoid, it' ; s probably not the right word, but to kind of not do that they, they, you know, they said, " ; okay, well, you know, we' ; re American citizens, we' ; ll come back," ; and avoid that hassle of having to do that. AT: 00:04:38 Hmm. And, um, how about your mom? Do you know the circumstances? SO: 00:04:44 No, I would say that, um, my mom and dad actually knew each other in Japan. Uh, and my, one of my, my dad' ; s younger, younger brother was coming back to, to the United States in 1936. And so maybe she took that opportunity to come back with, you know, with, um, because she, she knew somebody. So, uh, she came back with my dad' ; s brother, uh, to, to the United States at that time. AT: 00:05:17 Did they have any other family that was still in the U.S.? SO: 00:05:21 No. I mean, there was an uncle that was - that lived in Arizona that, uh, that was in, in this country. Uh, and he actually helped my dad' ; s brothers and my dad - helped get back into the country because he vouched for them when they came they came to Angel Island and uh, you know, even though, you know, they could prove, probably fairly easily that they' ; re citizens, uh, but what really helped to have that uncle there saying, okay, no, you know, they were born here and maybe he has some proof or something, so they weren' ; t held at Angel Island for very long at all. AT: 00:06:01 And do you know anything about what your parents did once they arrived back in the U.S.? SO: 00:06:08 Uh, they were, they went to high school. They went to high school a little bit, but also, uh, my dad was - what do you call it - a houseboy where, you know, he kind of was a, worked for, uh, an American family doing, you know, the chores and stuff like that for them. Uh, you know, my, my mom, uh, I think she probably was like a nurse' ; s aid or something like that. AT: 00:06:35 And what are your parents' ; names? SO: 00:06:37 Well, my mom is Margaret and my Dad is Ted. And my mom' ; s last name is Takamia. AT: 00:06:44 Hmm. Um, okay. And then as far as you know, about, um, what they were doing, like around the time when Pearl Harbor was attacked and the war broke out, um, what kind of happened in their lives? SO: 00:07:06 I' ; m sure it affected them a lot, uh, they were, uh, they were, uh, I mean they were interned. So they were in the, uh, assembly center. They were in Santa Anita Assembly Center. Uh, they were still fairly young, so I don' ; t think they really owned property, but they obviously lost their livelihood by, you know, having to go into the assembly center and, and the, and, and, and again, they didn' ; t know each other. I mean, they kind of knew each other, but they weren' ; t related. So, uh, after the assembly center, my mom was sent to Heart Mountain and my dad went to a Hamachi or Granada and with the younger brother, which was the same younger brother that came, came across with my mom. Uh, so, oh yeah. AT: 00:08:08 And, um, do you know, uh, let' ; s see. Your dad was born in 1919, and your mom was 1913? Okay. So they were, they were early twenties, then, at the time that the war broke out? SO: 00:08:30 Yes. AT: 00:08:31 Um, do you, did they share with you, um, any information or, or memories or anything about their experiences? SO: 00:08:47 Not really, they didn' ; t really talk about it as, as, as common, uh, that I hear anyways common. Uh, they, they really didn' ; t talk about it at all. I mean, I really only learned about internment, the whole whole thing, you know, later on in college and stuff. So I didn' ; t really, really know about it or they didn' ; t talk about it at all actually. AT: 00:09:13 And so the information that you do [inaudible], you do know about, um, where they went and all of that, did that come from them directly or how did you - SO: 00:09:23 No that came from the afterwards just during - once I got interested in, in the, in the incarceration and everything. I, I, you know, yeah, I just kind of dug up, dug around myself. Uh, obviously the government, you know, government archives, online archives where I' ; ll find a lot, I mean that I was in, you know, ancestry.com and, and just trying to find records and stuff, so I was there. I' ; m able to piece together a lot of it. AT: 00:09:52 Hmm. And do you have a sense of how long they were in either? AT: 00:09:57 Sure. Yeah. My dad, uh, was probably from Granada, I mean, yeah, in Granada. He was probably there from, I actually knew- know - the dates, but I should' ; ve looked it up before I came. Uh, it was probably maybe July of ' ; 42 or so that him and the younger brother, uh, Dick Oda was, uh, interned but then they weren' ; t there for very long because in December ' ; 42, they volunteered for the MIS. So they were only in Granada for maybe four months or so. Um - AT: 00:10:43 And that was both your uncle and your dad? SO: 00:10:46 Yeah, my uncle, yeah, my dad, they both volunteered at the same time. So there' ; s - I even think their serial numbers were only, you know, one one apart. Uh, and they, you know, they both volunteered. Uh, so they were, so they weren' ; t incarcerated for very long. My mom on the other hand, uh, she was she went, went to Heart Mountain, uh, again, probably from early summer ' ; 42. And this I found out fairly recently, I was out and she transferred to Poston because most of her family was, excuse me, because most of her family was in Poston. And I, I' ; ve always tried to find out when does she transfer when does she transfer? I actually found out really recently that it was like in February of ' ; 43 that she transferred from Heart Mountain to Poston to be closer to her family members. AT: 00:11:44 Do you know what family she had? SO: 00:11:47 Yeah, it was like a - she had, she had a brother. Yeah, her brother, uh, and his family and some of his relatives that she knew were in Poston, so that' ; s why she transferred to Poston. And then she was probably in Poston until the end of the war. AT: 00:12:12 And then, um, what do you know or what can you tell me about how long are, um, what happens after the war? I guess for your mom' ; s or - or what happens, you know, what was their next move or step? SO: 00:12:36 Okay. Yeah. My, as I said, my dad was in the MIS. Uh, it was my - was his younger brother. They' ; ve volunteered at the same time, but also my dad also had two other brothers who were drafted who were actually drafted. Um, and they claimed right before, right before that they were drafted, before the war but looking at online records, it looks like they were both drafted maybe in, in January of ' ; 42. So it was maybe right, you know, a month after the war started. But um - AT: 00:13:08 You have any idea how that works? That two of those four boys? SO: 00:13:13 Yeah. Uh Huh. AT: 00:13:14 Two of them were drafted. And then the other two - SO: 00:13:16 I guess maybe because just a matter of luck? Maybe whether you' ; re called up or not? I don' ; t know. They have a lottery thing or are they, yeah, I don' ; t know how that worked because, uh, because I actually, the oldest brother was drafted, my dad' ; s twin brother was drafted, but my dad and his younger brother weren' ; t. So maybe if another top two or three months later, if the war hadn' ; t started, maybe they would' ; ve been drafted too possibly. But, uh, I don' ; t know the story to that, but, uh, so yeah, my dad' ; s oldest brother and obviously being Japanese American, they, I' ; m sure they weren' ; t sure what exactly to do with him because he was already in the army. Uh, I know he went to, uh, cook school or cooking school, uh, somewhere in Illinois or maybe Wisconsin. And then eventually he joined the MIS and became an instructor there. Uh, and my dad' ; s twin brother who was drafted. Joined - once the 442nd was, was established - he, he, he joined that. So, uh, so he, he joined and obviously was trained probably at Camp Shelby and Mississippi, and then were sent overseas. So he actually saw, saw combat. Um, yeah, I think, I believe he was in company I on on the 442nd. Um, my dad, once he graduated from the MIS school which was probably June-ish of ' ; 43, um, along with my younger brother, Dick, uh, Dick was sent to the Aleutians right away, um, because the Japanese was, uh, in the process of invading the Aleutians. Uh, my dad was sent to check the China, Burma, India theater of war. So he spent most of its duty in India. His commander - his commander was a non-American, but British, because the British were kind of in charge of that theater of operation, I believe. Uh, so I mean, as an aside, uh, because of that when I was born, he wanted to name me " ; Archibald" ; because that' ; s a very British name. And he must' ; ve liked it, but of course my mom said, " ; no way Archibald?" ; So she said that it was either Stephen or Stanley. So they, they went with Stanley. And then my, my cousin who is like 12 years older than me, she told me the story of that, um, I was named after Stan Musial, which is a baseball player, a famous baseball player at the time. Uh, that' ; s why Stan, you know, Stanley - uh, that I don' ; t, I' ; ve never heard, that' ; s the only time I' ; ve heard that - but that starts, she' ; s still, she' ; s telling me, uh, well, sorry for kind of going off on a tangent there. Yeah. And, uh, so yeah. So my dad spent all this time in the China, Burma, India, theater of war. I know. He told me stories about on leave, like going to the Taj Mahal. So he thought was really impressive and to this - and, and like a year before he died, he mentioned that he would' ; ve liked to have gone, like to go back, but we never were able to do that. So I, you know, he' ; s, you know, he would, I know he was really impressed by that. Um, yeah, we have pictures of him riding a motorcycle and, and uh, and stuff like that there. Uh, and - AT: 00:17:21 Do you know how long, uh, he and his brother were in service? In the MIS? SO: 00:17:26 Yeah, I would say my dad - I mean, I think - except for uncle Peter though - all of [inaudible] were instructors in the MIS and the other three brothers were stationed in Japan after the war and the occupation. And I think my dad was the first to come back. I think he came back around maybe ' ; 47-ish or something. Uh, I think my uncle Peter - Mary the Japanese woman, and he brought her back I believe, maybe 1952, ' ; 51, ' ; 52, maybe. And my, my dad' ; s youngest brother, Dick, stayed the longest. And he didn' ; t come back ' ; til probably ' ; 54 and he also married a Japanese woman and brought her back at that time. AT: 00:18:38 And, so when your dad came back - or did he come back? SO: 00:18:45 He came back to Chicago. Uh, I' ; m not sure exactly why, but my guess is that he knew people who are here, had friends who are here, uh, had heard Chicago was kind of more welcoming place, uh, for Japanese Americans. Um, and I know that. Yeah. You know, I, I, eh, you know, after the war, the Chicago Japanese population grew with like 20,000 or something, so, and they were kind of Japanese communities, like one on the North Side, one on the South Side, and he kind of picked the South Side community to live in. So yeah. AT: 00:19:24 Um, do you know where he moved to when he first came to Chicago? On the South Side? SO: 00:19:30 Uh, I would say he moved to the apartment that we, you know, cause he met my mom and they got married and then they moved into this apartment, big apartment building, that I grew up in and their address was, um, 4700 South Berkeley Avenue. It was, it was a big, uh, big multi-unit apartment building. And it actually has two entrances as there was, uh, the main entrance that was the 4700 address. But also it was on the corner, so they also had another entrance which had a different address address, which was 1019 42nd place. Um, and, and my dad was the kind of superintendent of the building, so, uh, and I would guess it was probably, you know, probably had at least 30 units in the building. So it was pretty big. Yeah, it' ; s pretty big. AT: 00:20:33 And um, as far as, um, his relationship with your mom, did they reconnect in Chicago? Is that how they got together or do you have any details about that? SO: 00:20:48 I think they probably corresponded and they did get together in Chicago. I want to say they got married in Chicago cause I know I' ; ve seen the wedding pictures. Uh, and I know my cousin Oh, who told me the story about my name being named after Stan Musial. She - that whole family was in Chicago. AT: 00:21:18 Who was her father? Which brother? SO: 00:21:21 Well, let' ; s see. My cousin was actually, that cousin was actually my mom' ; s sister - my mom' ; s sister with her mother. And so they were in Chicago, so they - so I think they - but they settled on the North Side, but, my cousin Alice was born in 1940 so, so she grew up in the camps, so she was about maybe five, you know, once when, uh, when the camps closed. Uh, and she was all old enough to, uh, kinda help my mom and family out. And I, I kind of remember, I think I saw she was at the wedding. I think I' ; ve seen the picture of her at my mom and dad' ; s wedding. So I think because, you know, they were there already in that, that' ; s what draw drew everyone to Chicago. AT: 00:22:22 That family had kind of already come in. SO: 00:22:26 [speakers overlap] Yeah, yeah. AT: 00:22:29 Do you have a sense of - so your mom, do you know when she came to Chicago? SO: 00:22:38 No, I want to say that looking at the records online, she left Poston and, and got a job somewhere in Illinois. Uh, again, uh, maybe as a nurses aid or something at some hospital. I should have looked - I don' ; t remember the town, but it was somewhere probably fairly close and not really close to Chicago suburb but you know somewhere fairly close but not like in the metropolitan area. AT: 00:23:13 And then at some point you must' ; ve come into the city. SO: 00:23:20 Yeah, yeah. I think she, you know, she met my dad again and they got married and that' ; s when they, I' ; m sure that' ; s when she moved to the city. AT: 00:23:31 Um, okay. And then, so your mom was in Chicago with some family, most likely, and then your dad came in ' ; 47. Um, do you know what kind of work - did your dad immediately go into the superintendent position? SO: 00:23:53 No, they were, they were actually - my sister was born in 1950 and they actually had a variety store, um, on Allison Avenue near Montrose. And yeah, I, I, I know my family still hadf stories and maybe I' ; ve even heard this from my cousin that, uh, it was kind of a variety store. They had toys and stuff too, but other sundries and um, and my sister was born in 1950 and my - sometimes my mother would leave her in a buggy in the window, uh, and people would pass by and say " ; oh" ; and think that' ; s a doll or something and want to buy her. Uh, and so yeah, they had this variety store. Uh, probably not too long, I would say. You know, I was born in ' ; 52, so I' ; m not sure if they still had it by the time I was born - I mean, I don' ; t have, I have no recollection of it, so I don' ; t, I really don' ; t know if they still have it then or not. But after the variety store, my dad went into the superintendent. AT: 00:25:05 Um, do you have any idea if they were living on the South Side still and then would they commute up to Allison in Montrose? SO: 00:25:14 Yeah, I would, I would say that they, they commuted. Yes. AT: 00:25:18 Have you ever seen any pictures or something like that? SO: 00:25:21 No. You know, I kind of walked the block I thought it was on, but you know, I don' ; t know what to kind of look for. I mean I think I know the block, but I think I would lean like - again, my cousin Alice was older, she might remember a few things where it was, so I probably should go with her and just walk the block or to the say and she might say, " ; oh yeah, this was the place or this was close to the place," ; then it was. Yeah. AT: 00:25:53 And do you think that was a family operation? Like more than just your parents? SO: 00:25:57 No, I think it was just my mom and dad. Yeah. Uh-huh. AT: 00:26:01 um, okay. So you have an older sister who was born in 1950? SO: 00:26:06 Right. Uh-huh. AT: 00:26:06 What' ; s her name? SO: 00:26:08 Her name is Christine. AT: 00:26:10 And then were you the next one? SO: 00:26:13 Yes. And then I have a younger sister, uh, another two years apart. ' ; 54 her name is Susanna. AT: 00:26:23 Um, and you said that the, the building at 42nd and Berkeley, you were in that for 17 years? SO: 00:26:34 Yeah, let me think. I can even give the exact date probably. Cause I was there for freshman year in high school. And then we moved right before, for sophomore year. So let' ; s see, I graduated high school in ' ; 69 so I started in ' ; 65, so it' ; s probably ' ; 66 that we moved, uh, that we moved north. AT: 00:27:01 And um, can you tell me a little bit about, uh, what it was like growing up in the South Side in the area? SO: 00:27:11 Yeah, I would say - you know, I didn' ; t think anything about it being dangerous or anything. I mean, people think of the South Side now or thinking look at the neighborhood now and they think, oh, you know, how could, you know, you know, but uh, at the time, I mean, growing up I didn' ; t think it was dangerous at all. I mean, we went to - the grammar school we went to what' ; s called Doniatte and it' ; s not there anymore, but it was on 42nd place, uh, about maybe three and a half blocks west. So we - we walked it every day. I think my mom actually you know took us there and back every day. Um, you know, then we' ; re a block from 43rd street, which was a real big commercial district. You know, there were supermarkets, there was a Walgreens, you know, there were restaurants and, and you know, a shoe store, you know, clothing stores, things like, yeah. I mean, anything you would want, you could just walk up to 43rd street and get. AT: 00:28:25 What were the demographics of the neighborhood at the time? SO: 00:28:29 You know, I would say it was mainly, uh, mainly African American. I mean, there was another Japanese American family on our block, I think, uh, you know, I don' ; t remember their names. They were like - we' ; re on the corner -maybe a half a block south of us, um, there was another Japanese family, which, yeah, I knew my parents knew real well, you know, I would say hi to them if I saw them in the yard or something. But, uh, yeah, I don' ; t remember their names, but that' ; s the one, the other Japanese American family, uh, that I knew of except my, again, my youngest - my dad' ; s younger brother, uh, my dad got him an apartment building, not that close, but fairly close. It was on Oakenwald and 47th street. So it was probably about one, two, three, four, maybe an eight block walk or something. Uh, and so, yeah, so that we, we would go there all the time. AT: 00:29:35 But besides that you didn' ; t know - SO: 00:29:38 No, no, I don' ; t think I did. Uh, you know, my, in school at Doniatte, uh, you know, it was mainly African American. I was the only, you know, I could think - besides my sisters - I think we were the only Japanese American kids in the school. Uh, yeah, there' ; s a church we used to go to, which was on 46th and Greenwood, which is called a - AT: 00:30:09 What kind of church was it? SO: 00:30:10 Yeah my impression was that it was a Methodist church but I could be wrong. Uh, it was on 46 in Greenwood and we would go to Sunday school there. And then, uh, you know, I can' ; t say my parents were members of the - you know, we went to church there, but we did go to Sunday school there. Um, I think it was called Kenwood. Maybe. Maybe it' ; s changed its name. I think it' ; s called Kenwood United Church of Christ right now, today. But yeah, I want us, you know, my memory says it was, you know, Kevlin Methodist Church, maybe, I could be wrong, but that' ; s my impression. AT: 00:30:52 And do you know about your, your parents, um, religious backgrounds, how they grew up and how they feel you' ; re doing [inaudible]? SO: 00:31:00 No. You know, my dad, no, I don' ; t know. I mean, when they came to the, I mean, in Chicago he attended, uh, there was, I know there was a Buddhist church you probably went to occasionally. I mean, neither my parents were, I would say real religious. Uh, but they made us go to Sunday school, which I was happy for, I mean, you know, there were things you learned in Sunday school, you don' ; t learn anywhere else and you know that - yeah, I' ; m glad I did that actually. AT: 00:31:39 Um, besides school and church, were there any other activities that you were involved in as a child? SO: 00:31:45 You know, in seventh grade I joined the Boy Scouts. Uh, so that was fine. I mean we went on some camping trips and stuff like that. But other than that, I can' ; t say were that involved in anything. Um, AT: 00:32:11 Can you tell me more about, um, the Boy Scouts [inaudible]? SO: 00:32:15 Sure. Let' ; s say, uh, you know, I went to Doniatte [inaudible] up to sixth grade and they, that' ; s how - that' ; s how as high as they went. So for seventh and eighth grade we had to go somewhere else and one school, one more well known school, it' ; s probably still there. It was called Oakenwald school. But, uh, they didn' ; t have a good reputation. So my parents decided to send me to a school in Hyde Park, which was a, yeah, which wasn' ; t that far, but it was, I, I couldn' ; t walk out, you know, I ended up, I ended up taking the bus there, uh, and in order to, in order to do that, actually we had to kind of be in the district. So they got a friend of theirs who lived in the district to say, I, we live, you know, we live there. Uh, and again, I don' ; t know the friend' ; s name, I know they live, I think they lived on Dorchester and 53rd or 52nd and Dorchester. Um, so I was able to go to - and again my older sister, uh, I know why we went to do two different elementary schools. My, my sister went to an elementary school called Ray in Hyde Park and I went to one called Bret Harte in Hyde Park. Um, so, so that for, so, so for seventh and eighth grade I went the Bret Harte, which was pretty much an all white school. Uh, and, and making friends there, you know, that' ; s for, that' ; s when I joined the boy scout troop there. Um, because most of my classmates were actually in that same troop. Uh, what was it like? I remember I actually had a good time. I remember going to the troop meetings, you gonna learn how to tie knots, learn how to, you know, light a fire with some flint and some, you know, some kindling and stuff, and uh, we went on camping trips, uh, overnight camping trips. Um, so it was, it was fun. I had a good time in the boy scouts. I don' ; t recall being in it for very long, I guess seventh, maybe eighth grade, but after eighth grade, you know, I didn' ; t go, you know, I didn' ; t do it anymore, but it was a good time. I enjoyed it. Uh, yeah, I remember having, you know, to buy like the uniform and stuff and, and I think a lot of the uniform we bought from a friend of mine in school who was in grade school, who was for some reason selling his stuff. Maybe he was, I don' ; t know if he was not doing the boy scouts anymore or this was some spare stuff he had, but I remember going to his house and buying it used because my parents were actually, you know, not well to do so they, uh, you know, we definitely, you know, when we bought it used it was a lot cheaper. AT: 00:35:43 Um, so it sounds like between home and church and school, you weren' ; t really around other Japanese Americans? SO: 00:35:54 No, I wasn' ; t, you know, I, I didn' ; t know any other Japanese American kids. I want to say until high school. Um, yeah, I think that, you know, as I was growing older on the South Side, I think the Japanese American community on the South Side was kinda slowly disintegrating a little bit. And, and, and I know my mom and dad kind of wished in hindsight that maybe they had moved to the North Side enclave. Uh, but I know I should maybe backtrack a little bit. You know, my dad was superintendent of the building we' ; re living in, but then he decided to buy the building, so, and, and a Japanese American person owned the building. So, you know, he, he, he was buying, you know, he was making payments to this person. Um, you know to buy the building. Uh, eventually my dad actually lost the building because it was getting harder and harder for him to collect the rent, um, because people were falling behind. And he finally ended up hiring a management company to collect the rent and pay the bills. Uh, but they ended up cheating my dad. So they, they, they took the money and then didn' ; t pay any bills. So it was like two years later or something my dad, you know, find out about this and, uh, but you know, it was so much money that he owed for, you know, like utilities and, you know, just the building, the mortgage and, uh, you know, it was just too overwhelming. Uh, so we actually ended up losing the building, um, and that - and that' ; s actually one reason we ended up moving out of the South Side and we, and we move north, uh, you know, right before my sophomore year in high school. Uh, so I know that was fairly real traumatic experience for him because he worked really hard, you know, to keep up the building and, uh, yeah, I know he, he wanted to own it and it didn' ; t work out. AT: 00:38:42 So with that, that was probably around the late sixties? SO: 00:38:50 Yeah. That was, uh, let' ; s say ' ; 66 probably. Yeah. When that happened. So we, so we moved north and we moved into an apartment building that my dad' ; s twin brother, the one who was in the 442nd, uh, he, he kind of, I wouldn' ; t say he owned it, but he was maybe the super of that building. So my dad was able to get an apartment. Um, my mom and dad were able to get an apartment in this building. AT: 00:39:24 And where was this? SO: 00:39:24 It was on Kyler Avenue, Kyler and, and, and Broadway. And Kyler is a block north of Burnham park. Uh, the address, I, you know, I, I want to say it' ; s 838 Kyler, but that could be totally wrong, but that number sticks to my mind. Uh, and, and then, so my, my uncle lived there, so, you know, I had, uh, you know, he had four children, so they were, they, you know, they were there, so I had people to play with and stuff like that. AT: 00:39:57 Hmm. Um, one thing I wanted to ask about before talking about the North Side, do you remember any, uh, Japanese American owned businesses or restaurants or anything like that in the South Side? SO: 00:40:11 You know, let' ; s see. Yeah, I kinda do maybe do remember going to one. It was more Hyde Park, maybe, it was, maybe it was on Hyde Park boulevard and 51st street. Possibly. I remember going there a few times with my family. Um, yeah. Restaurant wise, we didn' ; t eat out a lot, cause we weren' ; t that well to do, so we didn' ; t eat out that often. And when we did, I think we probably went to the North Side, maybe somewhere on Clark, you know, North Clark Street. We went to, you know, some restaurants, some occasionally, uh, um - AT: 00:41:02 Do you remember a grocery store? SO: 00:41:04 Yeah, I remember a grocery store going to a grocery store somewhere in the Hyde Park area, you know, that, you know what it was called or exactly where it was, I don' ; t remember. AT: 00:41:16 Did you eat Japanese food at home? SO: 00:41:19 You know, I wasn' ; t that adventurous. I mean, I, you know we liked sashimi. I liked sashimi a lot. Uh, that, you know, I, I ate whenever we had at, which wasn' ; t very often, but I did like the sashimi. Yeah. You know other stuff, you know, octopus, eel, my dad, my dad and my mom liked that, uh, even, uh, mochi. I mean, I like the plain mochi, but my dad liked the stuff with the stuff inside of it and you know, and I, you know, I said, nah, I don' ; t think I' ; ll go for that, but I like the plain mochi. Yea, uh, so yeah, we were brought up more on, you know, American food, but I mean, my mom cooked rice every day. I mean, every, every night, every, every dinner. My, you know, my mom and dad ate rice every night. Uh, besides that, uh, I would say it was more American food. AT: 00:42:22 I also wanted to ask about, um, Japanese language. Did you speak Japanese with your parents? SO: 00:42:28 No. You know, again, my mom and dad, again, not talking about the internment, they wanted to bring us up American. So I mean, they spoke Japanese, they didn' ; t teach. They didn' ; t, they didn' ; t endeavor to teach us Japanese. I mean, any Japanese I learned was through Osmosis with them talking to each other. I mean, they never said no, we' ; re going to sit down and teach you. Well, I can' ; t say that' ; s true. I remember one point maybe when I was maybe 10 years old or something, my dad said, okay, I' ; m going to try to teach you guys Japanese. But you know, it doesn' ; t last very long. I don' ; t think, uh, AT: 00:43:12 Could you understand it when they speak? SO: 00:43:14 Mmm, ah, I can maybe get the gist of maybe what they were talking about, but no, I couldn' ; t, you know, you know, to this day, I mean, I might know, you know, a couple hundred words, but that said, you know, yeah. AT: 00:43:29 Um, okay. So going back to the move to the North Side, um, to Kyler Broadway, um, can you tell me a little bit about what that move was like for you? Maybe how the neighborhood is different? SO: 00:43:45 Yeah, I would say that, you know, the, towards the end of our stay on the South Side, yeah, I did feel some racial tension maybe. Uh, I remember my cousin when one day my cousin came to visit and then we said, well, let' ; s walk, there was like a playground maybe a couple blocks away and it was in actually a low-income housing complex. They had just kind of a high rise and then they have a playground play area. So we walked over there and then, uh, I remember that. You know, some of the kids there were trying to say, you know, we can' ; t, you know, you can' ; t come here. We don' ; t belong here. And, uh, I would say we could' ; ve gotten into a fight, but one of the people there knew me from school, so he kind of diffused the situation a little bit. But yeah, that, that was one of the few times where I felt kind of a racial tension being in that area. Um, so yeah, when we move north, yeah, I changed high schools, so I, the first year on the South Side I went to Hyde Park High, which was a very integrated school. I mean, there was a - I don' ; t know what the percentages were - but I mean it was, it was really integrated. AT: 00:45:33 Did you, did you have other, um, Japanese American classmates at Hyde Park? SO: 00:45:42 No, I can' ; t say I did. I mean, I had a lot of the people I knew were actually from, you know, from my eighth grade class. I' ; m, a lot of them were, were uh, oh, the Jewish religion. So, uh, they, I knew them a lot. Yeah. Japanese, I can' ; t say I knew any Japanese Americans in High Park, even though my sister was going there, she graduated from Hyde Park, so she had to be, when I was there as a freshman, she had to be yet a junior or senior there. Um, but yeah, I can' ; t, say I knew any Japanese Americans you know in Hyde Park High, uh, when we move north, you know, I went to, I went to Lane Tech and that' ; s where, when I, I, I got to know what some other Japanese Americans in Lane Tech. AT: 00:46:41 Was that still an all boys school? SO: 00:46:43 Yeah, it was still an all boys school. I graduated in ' ; 69. I think they went co-ed maybe a year or two after that. AT: 00:46:52 Um, and how would you describe, um, well first of all, how, what was, what neighborhood is Kyler in Broadway called [inaudible]? SO: 00:47:11 Would that be called? Oh, I' ; m not sure maybe possibly uptown. I mean, it' ; s on the southern end, fringe of uptown, if it was uptown. Uh, yeah, and we didn' ; t stay there that long, I think we were there a year or two at the most. Then we moved to another place on Montrose in Greenview. And that address was 4413 and a half [laughter] and that was a courtyard building. So they - that' ; s why in some courtyard buildings, the post office gave a half to some of the addresses itself. They wouldn' ; t use up a lot of numbers. AT: 00:48:09 And uh, so that move was while you' ; re still [inaudible]? SO: 00:48:11 Yeah, I want to say, yeah, we probably were only at Kyler for a year maybe. So it was probably the last two years of high school. Yeah. We were at the Greenview address AT: 00:48:25 And remind me, that building on Kyler - your uncle was there? SO: 00:48:30 Yeah, my uncle was there, you know, maybe he was the superintendent of that building. So after we moved out, I think he probably moved, uh, somewhere else. AT: 00:48:46 Can you tell me a little bit about your experiences, um, going to Lane Tech and I' ; m living on the North Side [inaudible]? SO: 00:48:54 Yeah, I would say it was a totally different experience at Hyde Park. Uh, again, there were just, there were some racial tension. I mean, uh, I remember, I mean, it was at the time there were, you know, the big gangs in the area were Gangster Disciples and the Blackstone Rangers were the two big gangs around the, around the high school. Um, and I would sometimes walk with some friends from Hyde Park High, which was on like 62nd and Stony Island to, uh, where they lived in, in Hyde Park, which was maybe around like 53rd or something. So we had to walk, you know, maybe 10 blocks or so, uh, to get to their house. And I remember one time we were, it was just me and another friend of mine, we were passing, we' ; re walking and then a gang of, of kids, I don' ; t know, maybe a dozen people, we passed, and then, um, then they started chasing us and I said, " ; oh my God." ; So we ended up, uh, you know, running and then eventually knocking on a door. And then, uh, and luckily someone was home and they opened the door and those people who were chasing us, kind of stopped and kind of walked away. Um, so, you know, that was one experience I had, uh, another experience. I was actually in summer school taking a history course. Um, was it history or was it typing? I don' ; t know, I took maybe - did I take both? Yeah, maybe I did take typing and history that one summer, I don' ; t remember, but yeah. But, uh, I remember, and that was in Hyde Park High. And I remember at lunch or something, I walked and went outside and it was just sitting on kind of like, yeah, not the stoop that they had, you know, where the grass was, but they had a kind of a raised grass area and they had an edging around it, so I was sitting there and this kid came up to me and wanted my watch. I remember, you know, I didn' ; t want to give it to him when he said, and then he was kind of saying he the didn' ; t want to take it, he said, " ; oh, just lend it to me, I' ; ll give it back to you later." ; So we had a back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And finally, you know, I think he never did take the watch, but again, it kind of told me I shouldn' ; t sit out there alone anymore. Um, so anyway, going to the North Side now, I guess I didn' ; t have those things happen to me on the North Side. Um, you know, I' ; m sure there were gangs around, but yeah, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t have any, uh, you know, feel any of that. Um, I think the - I think the school Blaine was probably a better school than Hyde Park High. Um, there were more, you know, it was a big school. I mean, you know, when I was there I think they had like 5,000 students there and my graduating class was probably almost a thousand, so I mean, it was a big school having just to get used to the size. Uh, I mean it was, uh, it was, it was, it was intimidating at first, but, um, and I was kind of always, I, I' ; ve always been kind of a shy person, uh, and kept to myself, so, yeah. So, you know, I wasn' ; t, I never didn' ; t have that many - I' ; ve never had, you know, that many friends. So. Yeah. AT: 00:53:32 When you were at Lane Tech, were you involved in any other activities besides school? SO: 00:53:38 Yeah. Let' ; s see. I joined a few clubs. I joined the math club, I joined the astronomy club. I think, um, yeah, there was a stamp club I possibly joined. AT: 00:53:54 Were you all going to church still? Or - SO: 00:54:03 I would say no, I think once we moved north, I don' ; t think we actually found a church to go to. Um, you know my dad would still go to his, you know, his, his church occasionally. Uh, but I would say that, no, we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t go the go the church once we came north. AT: 00:54:30 And then, uh, same question as I asked when you' ; re on the South Side, do you remember any, um, Japanese American [inaudible] or she stays in the North Side? SO: 00:54:43 Yeah, I remember, uh, yeah, definitely around Clark and Belmont area, there were, there were several [inaudible] I think was there, there were, you know, two or three Japanese restaurants along the Clark street strip. There was a Japanese grocery store, maybe a block and a half - two blocks north of Belmont and Clark, uh, that we went to a lot. Um - AT: 00:55:09 Is that Star Market? SO: 00:55:10 Yeah, there was Star Market. Yes. Uh Huh. That was Star Market. Um, you know, I think there was probably Kyo' ; s restaurant was there at the time was another restaurant, I don' ; t remember the name, further north there was on Broadway, north of Lawrence [inaudible] there was Zuma that another restaurant we went to. Um, so yeah, there was definitely, there was like, yeah, there were several Japanese businesses all along Clark Street area that I remember. AT: 00:56:00 And did you and your family, did you frequent any of those? You said you went to Star Market a bit? SO: 00:56:07 Yeah, I can' ; t say we did a lot,again, yeah, we weren' ; t that well to do, so we didn' ; t eat out a lot. Uh, but you know, for my - if my folks need to buy, you know, Japanese food or something, you know, they would, they would go there. AT: 00:56:21 What was Star Market like? From your memory. SO: 00:56:25 My, my memory was, it was fairly small. Uh, I remember, you know it small. Yeah. I don' ; t, you know, I don' ; t know. I mean, uh, I do remember one thing and you know, going back to the South Side, going to the Japanese market on the South Side, I remember I have a memory of going with my dad and going to the, the butcher and my dad wanting some sashimi and the butcher brought out this huge big tuna -and I had never seen a fish that big before - and he cut out pieces of sashimi for my dad. And I said I had no idea that fish was so big and that this is where it came from. Uh, you know, I still have that memory in my mind, but, um, but no, I, I don' ; t remember, remember Star Market that well. AT: 00:57:25 Do you think there was - is there any certain points or, or time in your life where you, um, I guess became aware or maybe in touch with or, um, yeah, get so aware of you' ; re, you' ; re Japanese American identity? SO: 00:57:48 Uh, I would say it wasn' ; t probably until in college that, you know, I learned about the incarceration and, uh, and I wanted to know more about it and maybe I' ; m trying to maybe learn the language a little bit more. I remember after school, after I graduated, yeah, I remember taking a Sumei class where, you know, you know, I was at an [inaudible] I think, Wright Junior college had a class for 10 or 12 weeks or something once a week. And yeah, yeah, I, I enjoyed that. It was very, uh, very peaceful for me to do that and to learn that. AT: 00:58:37 And what college did you go to? SO: 00:58:39 I went to University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana. I graduated in ' ; 73. AT: 00:58:47 Can you tell me more about your experience learning about, um, the incarceration? SO: 00:58:54 Sure. I would say - I mean, it was a slow process. I mean, uh, my mom and dad never did want to talk about it. Even when I asked them questions about it, you know, uh, yeah, I think the because, oh yeah, my mom said, yeah, " ; I was in Heart Mountain and uh, and Poston," ; so I kind of maybe knew where she was, but to get any type of detail out of them, it was, it was impossible. Um - AT: 00:59:26 And this was, um, when you were college aged? SO: 00:59:29 Yeah, I was probably, yeah, probably during or slightly after college. Yeah. Uh, and - AT: 00:59:35 have you known as the child or growing up at all? SO: 00:59:40 No, I can' ; t say I had a consciousness about it. No, no. Uh, no. I don' ; t think I did. I don' ; t think I did. AT: 01:00:02 And then I, I wanted to ask about, uh, because clearly since that time you developed an interest, as you' ; ve had quite a collection of your own with the posters and the loyalty questionnaire and some objects and articles from camp. Can you tell me a little bit about how you came upon collecting? SO: 01:00:27 Right, right. I would say that, yeah, as I learned more and more about the incarceration, uh, as I did more research into what, uh, and you know, my mom and dad still have few things from the camps. Uh, I guess I, I, I started getting - first I started collecting books, uh, because I wanted to learn as much about it as I could. I figured, you know, there might be 30 or 50 books on incarceration, you know, but once I got into it, I mean, I, I think I have like 900 books now, um, in my collection. And not all of them are on incarceration. Some of them are like pre-war immigration and then the post-war things. But I would say a lot more, 90% of them at least is on incarceration. Uh, so once I started collecting books and started reading more about it. Um, yeah, you know I really got a real big interest in it and I decided to, I know don' ; t, started to collect artifacts. I think maybe, you know, I had maybe visit - the first camp I visited was Manzanar. Uh, my wife and I had gone there, uh, not specifically gone to Manzanar but, we had gone to that valley and, um, I' ; ve always wanted to the see, you know, try to go to all the camps. And since we were, I mean, fairly close, I mean, not that close, fairly close, I said, " ; well, let' ; s go up up there." ; And my wife was, um, interested too, so yeah. So we drove up to, to Manzanar and uh, and drove around and walked around. And, uh, and I think that' ; s probably one of the best preserved camps. I mean, they, you know, they had a big cemetery, they had the auditorium and the auditorium - I know they had remodeled the auditorium now, but when we had gone, they had not done that. So uh, there was not an auditorium. And they have, you know, they still have the guard tower in the front - a guard shack in the front. And, uh, so, um, so I think that got me thinking about the artifacts and uh, and, and I' ; m wondering, you know, if any of the, the barracks room were left anymore and uh, and between that and, and no, and the things that my mom and dad still had kept and I said well, I want to preserve all of this and, and try to understand it more and try to preserve it and then pass it on to the next generation. Uh, so that' ; s what started me in collecting. AT: 01:03:47 And why is that something that is important to you? SO: 01:03:55 Yeah, I think, I think, you know, from a history standpoint, I mean, we keep making the same mistakes all the time. I mean, history keeps repeating itself and, uh, I think it' ; s worth people learning about what happened and knowing what happened to the Japanese Americans in World War II. And, and part of them learning about it is through the artifacts, and the books, uh, so it doesn' ; t die. I mean, so the next generation would - can learn from it. And I think your exhibit here, I mean it' ; s fantastic and it' ; s going, it' ; s helping, keeping that memory alive and now in the memory, but learning from it and saying, " ; no, we can' ; t go down this road again, I mean, we can' ; t, uh, you know, ban whole racial groups, uh, just because of how they look or their religion." ; I mean, uh, and you know, we' ; re going through that now. So, uh, it' ; s something that is, we need to learn from and, and, and keep, keep it alive. So that' ; s why I' ; m doing it. AT: 01:05:15 With that said, I' ; m wondering if you could offer your thoughts or reflections about, um, cause like you say, um, you know, unfortunately we often see history repeat itself and that' ; s why it' ; s important to preserve and document and share this history, um, given, uh, some of the current events and current political climate in the US and all of that. Can you share just, I guess, maybe some reflections on what exactly we need to learn from this history and how it can help us kind of navigate where we' ; re at right now as a country. SO: 01:06:07 Yeah. I would say that, I mean, the rights guaranteed to us by the constitution. I mean, they were so trampled on for Japanese Americans during the war that, uh, then you have the supreme court that upholds some basic rights for Japanese Americans. Uh, and you know, I think it' ; s important that, you know, people look at that and say, wow, you know, through prejudice or hysteria or, or, or, um, whatever, uh, you know, there' ; re certain rights that you can' ; t, that are given to Americans that you can' ; t, you can' ; t abrogate because of some situation. Uh, and that, you know, prejudice I think will always be there. Uh, but hopefully, you know, we' ; ll have enlightened leaders that understand that and, and, and will not realize that. No, you know, be, we' ; ll be strong enough to say no, you know, it might be easy. It might be, uh, convenient to go along with the masses who might want to incarcerate a bunch of people or because of their religion or race. Uh, but I think, you know, leadership needs to be stronger to say, " ; no," ; you know, " ; this is the country we stand for." ; This is the freedoms we offer. Uh, this is our constitution and no matter what you may think - I mean the constitution gives us, everyone, equal rights and that you might not agree with them. Uh, you might not agree with what people are say or what they stand for, but as long as they are within the law, you know, they have the right to their opinion in their speech, uh, and their religion. Uh, so hopefully, you know, people can learn from the Japanese American experience and, and, and say all the leadership might have been weak at that time, but, you know, let' ; s learn from it and be strong. AT: 01:08:29 Um, I' ; m getting the sense that you were kind of, you were already delving into this history by the time that redress, um, and t\hat whole campaign. SO: 01:08:40 Yes. Yes. Huh. AT: 01:08:41 Can you tell me a little bit about, um, your memories of that, that time and maybe some of your reactions? SO: 01:08:49 You know what, I wasn' ; t that, you know, the redress movement was not something that I was really maybe understood, not maybe knew about that much at the time. Uh, you know, I know they had a hearing or hearing in Chicago. I, you know, I didn' ; t, I don' ; t know why, but I wasn' ; t, you know, it wasn' ; t something I I Kinda knew about. Um, I - so, yeah, I, I don' ; t know how to answer that. If I had known about it, uh, yeah, you know, I definitely would have been maybe involved in it, but that I didn' ; t - to be honest I didn' ; t even know about it - what was going on at the time. Yeah. I want to think what was happening in my life. I don' ; t know. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I was very happy when my mom and dad both got, you know, checks for $20,000. I was like, you know, but, uh, yeah, that was, yeah, that was my involvement in it. AT: 01:10:00 Did they have any particular reactions to it that you recall? SO: 01:10:07 Uh, yeah, I think they were good - happy it happened. Uh, I think the apology, they got meant something to them. Um, because the money was, I mean was something but didn' ; t cover anything of their losses or stuff that they went through. Uh, but, I think yeah, they were, they were, they were supportive. They definitely, they were supporters of it. AT: 01:10:49 And, um, so was Manzanar the only camp that you - SO: 01:10:55 No, I, and the - I' ; ve seen two of the camps. I wish I had seen more. But uh went to Poston, um, yeah you know, there' ; s a big monument there. Uh, we went to the monument, but then, you know, I asked - there was a firehouse fire station next door. And I asked the people there, " ; you know, is there a any other camps to left?" ; And they said, " ; yeah, there' ; s," ; you know, " ; a half mile down the road, uh," ; you know, " ; there, there' ; s some buildings there." ; So, you know, we drove there and, and there was a whole kind of fenced in area, pretty large fenced in the area that was there. So we, we stopped there and, and we' ; re trying to figure out how to get in and we walked all the way around and find that there was - I wouldn' ; t say entrance - but there was a place where the barbwire fence was, you know, was, was open. So we said, okay, we could get in. So well so we walked in there and they have one, one, one barracks. They had moved there. Uh, but with, mainly it was mainly the, the school area. There was all Adobe buildings there that was the grammar school and, and, and, and possibly high school classes there now that were still there. And there was a, and there was actually an auditorium that was there, but it had burned someone had burned it down fairly recently. Uh, so that, so the walls were still there for that. Then there was a giant warehouse, which I' ; m not sure was original or was, was, uh, uh, was something the tribe - cause it was on tribal land, maybe the tribal government had erected - uh, yeah, you know to them I' ; m not sure if that big warehouse was original or not, but, uh, so we walked, you know, so we walked around there. AT: 01:12:43 What year was that? SO: 01:12:45 That was fairly recently. That was a, I wanna say that was last year, actually. Yeah. Spring of 2016. That' ; s when we had gone there. Yeah. AT: 01:13:01 And did you say you went to one other? SO: 01:13:03 No. AT: 01:13:04 So just Poston. SO: 01:13:06 Yeah, uh huh. AT: 01:13:06 And, um, what was that like to, to be there in that space? SO: 01:13:14 Oh, wow. It was, uh, it was emotional, uh, to, to be walking along, uh, which is basically a prison camp, about you know where my mom was at and, um, you know, we actually did a small ceremony. My [inaudible] did a small ceremony at Poston. And um, to realize that, you know, our government had locked up people for no reason. It was real emotional and, and, and the visit Manzanar, I mean, the cemetery is still there, Manzanar and, uh, and that was, uh, you know, to see the cemetery and the big monument they have in the cemeteries. Yeah. And I, I think there' ; s still people and some people still buried there. Uh, and all that. They died in a prison camp. I mean, that' ; s, uh, uh, not knowing, you know, whether they' ; d be ever free again or what, what happened to them after the war. Uh, you know, that' ; s sad, yeah, that' ; s really sad. AT: 01:14:56 Um, and before we wrap up, I just have a few more questions. I' ; m wondering if, uh, if you have a sense of, or I guess maybe if you' ; ve done some research on it or looked into the process and the experience of resettlement and kind of what happened to folks post-war and post-camp. Um, is that something that you' ; ve looked into? SO: 01:15:34 Well there' ; s been a few things about it. I mean, even on the west coast, I mean, a lot, a lot of people did return to the west coast and you know, some, some, I mean, I, I would say maybe half the people were okay with it. Other half of the people were still didn' ; t want them back, maybe, so, so there were still a lot of prejudice and I mean a lot of violence and even shootings. Uh, and I mean even there' ; s, there was a VFW post that didn' ; t want returning nisei soldiers. And I think that was in the Oregon to, to, uh, be part of the part of the membership. And so, yeah, I mean there was, um, so I think that' ; s why a lot of the people did end up coming to Chicago because they thought maybe it was more welcoming for them. AT: 01:16:34 And, um, as far as your own family' ; s experiences go, uh, I mean, it sounds like your parents were really open or just, you know, forthcoming with information about, um, this particular time. But, um, do you have a, a sense of what that was like for them or their own thoughts or feelings about that move to Chicago? SO: 01:16:59 Uh, I would say that it was tough for them. Uh, I think one, I think, for climate change. I mean, they were, you know, grew up in, they were used to California weather, so I, Chicago winters can be brutal. Uh, I think that just to get acclimated to the people and the new environment, uh, that they faced prejudice. I' ; m sure they did. You know, they didn' ; t talk about it. Uh, they yeah, they have the Japanese spirit up, you know, of overcoming it and, and persevering. Uh, and they really wanted the kids to be American. Uh, so, uh, you know, they did everything in their power to make sure we were American. And I think again, that the whole incarceration affected them. They, they didn' ; t want us that, that happened to us. So they wanted us to be very Americanized. So I think that' ; s one lasting legacy for them, was to not teach us Japanese, to, to, you know, make us really American so that hopefully the same thing will happen, won' ; t happen to us. And I would say they' ; ve succeeded in that because, uh, I mean, every one of my cousins of my generation, like all, all of my, my dad' ; s brothers, you know, who had kids, my cousins, all of them who married, married, non-Japanese people. So, uh, so I think they really homogenized us into that, into the fabric of the, of the United States. AT: 01:19:13 How do you feel about that legacy? In a way that' ; s been asserting an American identity. SO: 01:19:26 Uh, well, I, I' ; m, I' ; m, I' ; m torn about that. I mean, part of me says, yeah, it' ; s great. You know, I mean, you know, I feel, I don' ; t feel Japanese. I mean, I feel American, uh, but the other part of me says, you know, I don' ; t want to lose my heritage either. And, uh, you know, I wish I knew Japanese more. Uh, I wish, um, you know, I keep saying, I want to learn, you know, I' ; ll take a Japanese class and learn more and you know, hopefully I' ; ll do that. Uh, and I keep saying I haven' ; t been to Japan yet either. I mean, I have relatives there that I' ; ve never met. Uh, I mean, they don' ; t know me. I don' ; t know them, but it' ; d be nice to at least see them. Uh, and I keep saying I want to learn Japanese before I go, but if I see if I use that excuse, I' ; ll never go so I should just end up going. Uh, so yeah, I guess, I like, everyone needs to learn their heritage and to respect their heritage and to know enough about it so they can convey it to the next generation. Um, but yeah, I' ; m also, you know, I' ; m also glad that I feel American, so, yeah, I guess I wish my mom, dad taught me Japanese when I was growing up, but you know, that I can' ; t blame them, you know. AT: 01:21:05 And if you could, you talk a lot about passing things on to the next generation or future generations more generally. Uh, if you could leave any kind of message or legacy for the generations to come, what would you want to leave people with? SO: 01:21:34 Uh, let' ; s see. AT: 01:21:37 And it could be, it could be more specific too. Like if you have any children. SO: 01:21:41 Yeah, I would say respect, you know, respect your elders. You know, they have stories to tell. Uh, you can learn from, you know, you can learn from things that have come before the experiences they' ; re experienced. They paved the way for you to live a better life. Uh, so, you know, thank them for that. Oh, the whole incarceration experience. Um, I think has, has made, made my folks stronger and that in turn made me stronger. Um, you know, I feel very, you know, self-reliant. I feel, yeah, I feel I can handle anything that comes at me and I don' ; t know that that' ; s because it' ; s unique to me or whether that was because of what they had gone through. But, you know, respect and not only your relatives and your elders respect history and don' ; t forget history. AT: 01:23:01 Well, thank you so much for opening and speaking with me. Before we wrap up, is there any last thing you' ; d like to add or anything that I might' ; ve missed? SO: 01:23:11 Well, I don' ; t think so. Let' ; s see. I don' ; t think so. I mean, I could remember on the South Side in that apartment building. Uh, I remember finally, I mean, you know, people will look back on it now and think we grew up in a slum or something, but when you' ; re growing up in it, you don' ; t think that way. Um, I mean, you know, it was routine to have roaches in the kitchen. I mean, it was routine to not have enough hot water for a bath. You know, you had enough hot water for maybe one bath, so everyone had to, you know, take their turns taking a bath and that same water, uh, I, you know, yeah, I look back on it now and, and I don' ; t think that was bad. I think you know, it was just part of growing up and again, it probably made me stronger for going through all that. Uh, yeah, I had wonderful teachers and not only at Doniatte, but at Bret Harte. Um, you know high school. Uh, so yeah, in Chicago, yeah. I obviously haven' ; t left Chicago except for college, you know, in Champagne-Urbana. I' ; ve been here all my life. So, yeah, you know I enjoy the city. I think that there is a lot lot to offer in a city. I don' ; t feel, yeah, I really don' ; t feel prejudiced against me in the city. Um, yeah, I think that has to do with the acclimation and also what Japanese Americans did during the war, especially in my joining the army in the 442nd and 100th and MIS, I think that, you know, really helped the Americans realize that, you know, that these Japanese Americans are American and, and deserve the respect and, uh, the open, you know, openness that you can give them. AT: 01:25:45 Well, thank you so much again for coming in and sharing. SO: 01:25:49 Oh, you' ; re welcome. I hope it was, you know, worth it, I don' ; t know if it was. You know, if I was able to answer to much of what you wanted. Okay. You' ; re welcome. Bye now. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OdaStanley20171116.xml OdaStanley20171116.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Series: Then They Came for Me