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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Omachi, Chiyoko
Interview Keyword
Terminal Island
Poston
Arizona
Pennsylvania
Mennonites
Christian
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/20/2018 Omachi, Chiyoko (3/20/2018) 1:45:03 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery and/or the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945 Terminal Island Poston Arizona Pennsylvania Mennonites Christian Omachi, Chiyoko Takada, Anna video 1:|13(3)|21(5)|27(8)|41(3)|53(8)|59(16)|70(5)|80(11)|94(2)|106(3)|116(7)|140(10)|150(11)|157(16)|169(3)|186(11)|198(12)|208(16)|217(8)|223(12)|233(13)|241(10)|249(14)|256(12)|264(7)|273(10)|280(7)|301(9)|311(13)|330(11)|347(2)|363(10)|378(3)|387(11)|393(5)|399(7)|404(3)|411(1)|417(10)|424(5)|431(5)|445(1)|475(11)|495(13)|502(5)|512(14)|551(8)|575(13)|588(2)|602(5)|612(1)|618(9)|625(5)|635(15)|647(8)|656(15)|665(13)|673(9)|683(6)|703(16)|708(1)|723(1)|738(5)|750(6)|758(3)|777(5)|796(13)|803(2)|826(12)|844(10)|865(6)|892(2)|905(7)|935(7)|956(2)|998(4)|1012(2)|1019(12)|1038(2)|1055(8)|1084(9)|1102(1)|1116(5)|1130(12)|1144(12)|1154(7)|1176(1)|1183(14)|1191(3)|1232(11)|1242(5)|1252(10)|1262(15)|1271(6)|1288(6)|1304(1)|1321(5)|1351(9)|1374(5)|1384(12)|1404(10)|1412(5)|1418(10)|1428(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/279883664/b6d7fbb36c Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/279883664" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Chiyoko describes her experiences growing up on Terminal Island. She talks about moving to L.A. right before the Evacuation and her experiences at the school there. Chiyoko describes what camp life and food was like. She discusses leaving the Poston to go to school and work inland. She talks about a Mennonite family she has fond memories of. Chiyoko explains why she resettled in the Midwest and why she joined the Resettlers Committee and the importance of supporting other Japanese Americans. She is glad that the JASC is doing the oral history project and hopes her story and other stories will be helpful for future generations. Anna Takada:This is an interview with Chiyoko Omachi as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on March 30th, 2018 at about 1:15 PM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Chiyoko Omachi is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? Chiyoko Omachi:My name is Chiyoko Omachi, Omachi. AT:And where, and when were you born? CO:I was born on Terminal Island, California, which is in Los Angeles harbor. I think the place exists no more. Um, I was born on July 12, 1926. And my folks had two children before me and these two died. And so when I came along they wanted to give me a long name, a Japanese name that had good vibes and Chiyoko means a thousand generations. AT:And your parents where, where were they from? Where were they born? CO:My father was from Japan-- Southern Japan, and he was a shipbuilder. He left Japan on an English ship and went to England and was in England for a while and then he came back to the United States. He met, a Japanese, shipbuilder and they decided to build ships together, on Terminal Island where there were very many Japanese fishermen and they thought that, you know, that they would build ships there and they could sell them. We have pictures of the shipyard. They did build very large ships. These two were strangers really. But my father was single, at the time this year [mumbles] the strange, stranger-- the two men, two Japanese from two different parts of Japan. And I guess the, the old-- the older gentleman says, well, " ; I have a, a daughter in Japan, you' ; ll have to meet her, and perhaps you would marry her." ; And so he called her over. And my-- turned out to be my mother. They got married and they lived happily for many, many years. AT:And so that was when your father was in, or at Terminal Island CO:Right. AT:And she came into like-- CO:Right, and that was, oh, I don' ; t know, 19-- I used to know exactly the, the years that they started the shipyards. But, it was way before I was born. I was born in 1926. I have a feeling it was about 1920. And we have pictures of this, of these shipyards. And they were very large, you know, places. 2nd Interviewer:Your mother' ; s family was from Wakayama Prefecture and your father' ; s family was from Kawashima. CO:Right. [Overlapping " ; and" ; ] And in Japan they never would have met, you know. AT:It was just through the connection of the [overlapping dialogue] right now. And so, uh, what are, what are some of your memories of Terminal Island? CO:Oh, you know, that was such a wonderful place. We were only about four blocks from the ocean, from the beach. And-- we had-- it' ; s a small island-- manmade island really. We had a ferry boat that went across to San Pedro and there was a drawbridge on one side of the island. We had a car. Not many people had cars, but my father was mad for cars and he had a number of, of wonderful old cars. And when I was growing up, I guess we had a car that no one has heard of: the Moon. And we had a Plymouth. He had two cars. One was called the Moon and the other one was a Plymouth. A Plymouth was a sedan and the Moon was a roadster, you know, with the-- what did they call those? A rumble seat. I, that' ; s what they used to call them. The back was like a, a coupe with the, the back-- It would be like a trunk, that opened up and, there were seats, there was a seat back there and you would sit in the open air. Wonderful little car. AT:And was it pretty common for people to have cars at that time? CO:No. No. Whatever moneys there was, or there were [laughs] Papa had to have a car or two. And, I think grandfather enjoyed cars because we have a picture of the children in front of the cars. [Turns to 2nd interviewer off screen] Do you remember what, what that was? [No answer off screen]. It might' ; ve been an English car. I' ; ll probably recall, then it' ; ll be too late to report. But-- yeah, they-- my father loved cars. He was a bad driver. AT:And does that mean-- you said there was a photograph with your grandparents, were they in the U.S. as well? CO:Yes. Yeah, my father-- my grandparents, I think the year I was born my grandfather died and-- a really sad accident in the-- at the seaside. But my father lived till he was 70, and he was very keen on educating the children, especially he wanted me to go to college and when the war came, you know, we were in camp-- I will jump ahead-- but I was in camp and my father said, well, " ; You have to get out of here because the education you' ; re getting in camp is so inadequate, you' ; ll never be able to go to college otherwise. And so I left early. I left camp to go to live with my uncle in Pennsylvania and went to high school in Pennsylvania. AT:Just to go back a little bit to talk more about your family. Can you tell me more about, about your grandparents and how and when they ended up in California as well? And was this your, your father' ; s parents? CO:No, this would be, well, they were strangers, but my father married his partner' ; s daughter. AT:Right. Okay. CO:And so he, he knew, you know, this, this man and his family before he, he got married to one of the daughters. And, in fact, the daughter was in Japan, my mother to be, and they called her to the United States. And, she had been left in Japan and lived there while the mother and father came to the United States and started a family here. So I had an aunt, well, I have two aunts and one uncle who were American citizens. And then my mother came into the picture, got married to his partner, you know, AT:And your father' ; s parents, were they still in Japan? CO:My father' ; s family. We never did meet my, my father' ; s family. But, all of my, my maternal grandparents, you know, they were here in this country and people would say, some of my Nisei friends would say Very unusual for you to have a grandparent here, a grandmother. And, so I did until I was still in college I think when she was still alive. 2nd Interviewer:Do you know what caused Baayan and her husband-- this would be my great grandmother-- what caused them to come from Japan, if you know? CO:Well, I think, the grandfather, I think he wanted to come to America. They came specifically to Terminal Island because that' ; s where the Japanese fisherman were and they wanted to come and build ships there. 3rd Interviewer:So they came unrelated to, to your father' ; s side? CO:Yeah. My father met the grandparents then in America. 3rd Interviewer:Yeah. CO:You know, they were partners first, shipbuilders together. And then as I say, he said, " ; Well, I' ; ve got a daughter in Japan. 3rd Interviewer:OK CO:And so my mother came over when she was about 16. 2nd Interviewer:The great grandmother [overlapping dialogue] CO:[overlapping dialogue] She was young 2nd Interviewer:The great grandfather must have had some of-- his family must' ; ve had some funds right. For him to come over to the US. CO:Well, I don' ; t know that the, the Japanese who came to this country, that came as immigrants, I think, you know, they, they must' ; ve borrowed or whatever they had to do or gathered all the moneys from relatives and they would come and they lived, you know, humbly. 2nd Interviewer:Right. CO:They didn' ; t have to live as we would expect to, to live in this country. [Overlapping dialogue] I saw there were a lot of fishermen on the Terminal Island and they would-- I think what happened was there would be, a man or a group-- perhaps a cooperative that would own a boat and they would have a captain, like [Kashi' ; s?] father was a captain. Very smart, advanced, knew-- what' ; s the word?-- how to man a ship. These were large ships. And my father, when he was building the ships, it was very complicated, you know. He used to talk to me about building because, I was, you, I was the-- I had two brothers who were about three or four years older than I, but one was a stillborn child and died, and the other one was a toddler and he passed away. And so my father used to treat me like a, a boy, and I used to go out with them and help him caulk ships. I know how to do that. And he would take me out to the workplace, and they would be doing all manner of stuff to the, these ships. And I would go around-- I remember being very young and asking Papa, " ; How do you do this and what are-- what is this for?" ; And he would take me to lunch with him and we would have clam chowder [interviewers chuckle] at the restaurant. And I felt very fortunate because I had a younger brother. I, I have a young brother and a sister, but I was the one that learned to make kites. And I used to make ships and, you know, I was-- I was the little boy and, and then the war came and my brother was much younger. And so-- AT:When were your younger siblings born? CO:Well, let' ; s see. I was born in ' ; 26. My brother was born in ' ; 29, I think, and then my sister in ' ; 30. AT:So just they are a few years younger. CO:Yeah. AT:And can you describe kind of what your life was like in Terminal Island before the war? I guess like-- CO:Oh AT:Family life and school. CO:Oh, it was wonderful. I had a surfboard [chuckles] I didn' ; t know how to swim. [points at 2nd interviewer] My daughter is horrified. The lawyer. My daughter. That I used to drag this red surfboard to the beach and waddle about. There was a nice-- oh, what is it called? There were these rocky enclosures and so-- 3rd Interviewer:Jetty. CO:You know, it was a break. What did they call those-- 2nd Interviewer:A breakwater? AT:Well a breaker, so that the sea wouldn' ; t come roaring in. It would break out yonder the, the surf would just be calm as it came in. And I used to go out there quite often myself. And, used to make sandcastles and stay down at the beach for quite a while. I was very independent, I think as a child. And my brother and sister didn' ; t follow me, always. I think my sister seemed much younger, somehow, and she, she would stay at home. AT:Growing up, did you speak any Japanese at home? CO:Yeah, at home, we, we spoke Japanese until we went to school and I think we learned English in school. That was very hard, I think going to school. I remember not wanting to drink milk and they wanted me to drink, you know, half a pint or whatever, it' ; s milk, and never liked milk at home and never drank it at, at home. And so I said, I don' ; t want to go to school. But my father said, " ; Well you have to go to school in order to learn. Oh, to learn arithmetic, I think. Sanjutsu, I think it' ; s called in Japanese. Math and I thought, oh, okay. [Laughs] AT:Did you go to Japanese school or was that around? CO:Well let' ; s see. We went to Japanese school for a little bit. Our family was Baptist. There were two, there was a Baptist Church on this island-- Terminal Island-- but most of the Japanese were Buddhists and there was a large Buddhist Temple, and not a temple, you know, but, a church. I don' ; t really know where it was, but the Japanese had Japanese school in, in the church, the Baptist church I believe. But I was still too young. I don' ; t think I went, I may have belonged for a year to Japanese school, but I didn' ; t like Japanese school. I didn' ; t do very well as I recall. But, my folks were very lenient-- I think too, I was-- I think because I had these two brothers who passed away, they took very good care of me health wise, and I was anemic as a child and they were very concerned. You know, that I have-- that I had rare steak to eat-- Oh, that wasn' ; t, that wasn' ; t, that wasn' ; t what I wanted, but anyway. They were very... I think they made me into a hypochondriac. [Everyone laughs] Well, I was always, I think, concerned because I was thin and underweight and everyone said, " ; Oh, well she' ; s anemic you know. Well, as it turned out, I was an early diabetic and that was rare, you know, and, I had a diabetic specialist in Chicago who said, " ; The Japanese are not diabetics." ; That' ; s-- he thought it was rare. AT:Did you find that out much later in life? CO:Yeah, much later. But then, everyone in my family, you know, my Japanese family, were-- many of us are diabetics. And so, in fact there was a Japanese scholar, a physician who was at the University of Chicago, and he was from my mother' ; s province, and he was very interested in the family and said, " ; Oh, that' ; s very interesting." ; He didn' ; t say one thing or the other about how rare it was. But, he wanted to know about my history and then my relatives in California who were, you know, many who are diabetics over there. AT:Going back to life at Terminal Island. So let' ; s see. Were there-- at the time when you were growing up-- were there-- what were, I guess the, the demographics around there. And were there other Japanese American families? CO:Oh yeah. Well, you know, the, there was-- the island was divided into two parts and, the one part was-- they used to call it fish harbor and that' ; s where the ships came in with the fish and the were canneries there. I think there was Starkist tuna was there and a couple of other fisheries. And, most of the Japanese fishermen lived over there and the wives used to work in the canneries, and when they had-- when the fish would come in-- and I guess they would cook them however they did that-- they would blow a whistle and the women would go to work and you could hear it all over the island except our part. It was a long island and, our part of the island was called Brighton Beach and close to Long Beach. There was a bridge on our side and there were a lot of old but nice looking old homes. Some were dilapidated because, you know, the white people would-- from Long Beach-- would come to Terminal Island in the summer. And, because there was this nice expansive beach-- and would spend the summers there. And when we were growing up, we had one of these homes, my father being a carpenter, a shipbuilder and a contractor for homes. He fixed up this old home and it was wonderful with French windows. And, it was two story. And, some of our friends from other parts of California would come to visit us and stay for weeks. And, it would seem months, and we would go to the beach and the popsicle man would come every afternoon. It was, you know, quite, quite wonderful living on Terminal Island. And the fishing village was way on the other side where, you know, the, the tuna canneries were, and it was congested and smelly and-- but our side of the island was a totally different place. We had trees, palm trees, date trees, palms. Very pleasant. We were the only ones on the block that had a telephone, as I recall. People would come day and night to use the telephone. AT:And, as far as school, and I guess your, your peers as a kid, and, and growing up-- were folks, mostly Japanese American or-- CO:[overlapping dialogue] Then the school I went to was called Banning High school in Wilmington and we used to take a bus to get there. And I don' ; t know how that happened. Perhaps part of the island was in their district. So we-- the bus would come in the morning and we would get on the bus, and there were white children, not so many Asians, not so many Japanese. I don' ; t know that we had-- I don' ; t think we had Chinese friends. I think we were all Japanese, and white friends and they would put us on the bus and we' ; d go to Banning High school. And that' ; s where-- oh, what is his name? AT:Sam Ozaki? CO:Yeah, Sam Ozaki was that part of the-- well, they were from a farming community near Wilmington and they used to bus in I think. But we would be coming from, you know, Terminal Island was way over yonder. And we knew Ozaki-- my uncle knew the Ozaki' ; s because they were about the same age. I was much younger, I think than Sam would have been. And Lily. Yeah. AT:So you would' ; ve been in high school when the war broke out-- CO:Yeah, I was 15 AT:Sophomore year of high school. CO:Pardon? AT:Were you at-- in your second year of high school then? CO:I was there-- well we-- they had a junior high there-- junior high and senior high. And so I was going to Banning already, and my uncle who lived-- well for a while they lived in San Pedro over-- they lived in Wilmington and those in Wilmington went to Banning High school. And my uncle was I think six years older than I. My aunt, who was his younger, the youngest sibling was, I guess she was five years older than I and he was-- would have been Sam' ; s friend or about the same year. Uncle Yas just died. [turns to 2nd interviewer] And he was in his nineties, wasn' ; t he? 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. Yeah. AT:Before the war broke out, did you ever experience any kind of discrimination or-- CO:Yeah, we were on Terminal Island and, they gave us 48 hours to leave-- 2nd Interviewer:She' ; s asking before. Remember you told us about not being able to go to the swimming pool? CO:Oh, that was-- [overlapping dialogue] You know, all, all Asians were not invited. [overlapping dialogue] Blacks were not invited [overlapping dialogue] Mexicans were not invited [overlapping dialogue] 2nd Interviewer:She wants to know before the war. Did you guys experience any discrimination? Before you were taken to the camps as a child, did you experience discrimination? CO:Not really because we lived in the homogeneous, you know-- 3rd Interviewer:Isolated. CO:Yeah, mostly, mostly Asian. Although Terminal Island it was a mixed group, but there were more Asians-- more Japanese, I think, even on our side of the island, than white. We had a Russian family and I was very curious about them. Never found out much about, you know, where they came from or what-- I think the father was a fisherman somehow, but he would have been an odd bird, you know 3rd Interviewer:Where you weren' ; t allowed to go to the, the swimming pool? CO:There were no swimming pools there anyway. 3rd Interviewer:What is she talking about? [Overlapping dialogue] You weren' ; t allowed to-- to somewhere CO:Well, wherever there were swimming pools, Asians were not, you know, invited. They were excluded, let' ; s say, they were not invited. They were excluded and Mexicans. 3rd Interviewer:Were there other examples of things that you couldn' ; t do because you were Asian? CO:Yeah, I' ; m sure there were. 3rd Interviewer:Like places you couldn' ; t-- you weren' ; t allowed to go. 2nd Interviewer:Did you ever come into Los Angeles or did you stay in-- CO:Yeah, well my Father had those cars and we, we drove around [laughs]. 2nd Interviewer:I know, but when you came into LA [overlapping dialogue] CO:We would go to Los Angeles [overlapping dialogue] about 25 or 30, I don' ; t know how many miles it was. It' ; s just, some childhood numbers I had in my head and it must have been further. We would go to Japanese and Chinese restaurants in Little Tokyo, you know. There was no such restaurant in, in Terminal Island, although there was a place called the New York Cafe and Papa and I used to go there for clam chowder. AT:That was on the island? [overlapping dialogue] CO:Very, very good. [laughs] AT:That restaurant was on the island? CO:It was on the island yeah. When, when he would be working and I would go with him. And I would be about 10, 11, 12 when I was helping him because I could do a number of things. And he taught me-- oh, he used to tell me about all these differences in Japanese and American tools, you know, and how can you sharpen the saws this way. And then in the American way you go to do it from the other side. I have all manner of stuff in my head about tools. And he had planes, the Japanese planes were different and you drew them instead of, you know-- American planes you use, I don' ; t know which way it goes, but anyway, the Japanese did it the other way. AT:Can you tell me about your memories of the war starting and-- CO:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was a Sunday and my grandmother had come to the Baptist church. She was going home on the ferry. And then, I think, one of the-- my uncle or my aunt called to say, " ; Grandma wasn' ; t on the ferry." ; They must have-- they used to meet her on the other side, I think cause it was a little, oh, maybe, I don' ; t know in mileage, how far they were from the ferry boat, you know, down at the, down at the seaport. And they used to live way beyond there. And I suppose my grandmother wasn' ; t on the ferry. And, I think, on that day my uncle called and said, my grandmother wasn' ; t on the ferry. And I think the FBI rounded up all the Asians on the, or Japanese, on the ferry. And-- Now, this is very hazy. I can' ; t recall exactly. Because we were having all sorts of excitement on our side of the island. We had just come back from the church, from church, and they said the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor. And we were prob-- I was listening to the radio and, and then I don' ; t remember the rest of the day, but I know my grandmother finally did get home. Her children must have picked her up at the ferry, took her home. And we were on this side, Terminal Island. And then soon after that they were patrolling the, the, the roads-- jeeps and soldiers. And then it wasn' ; t until several months later that they said, oh, they wanted all the Japs off the island in 48 hours. And so the Baptist church in Los Angeles, which was the, you know, the, the mother or father church, the one that was in-- on the island-- came in buses. And it seems to me, we packed up our things [mumbles] my father was busy running around helping our friends because the fathers had been taken away by the, the government. Well, my father, not being a fisherman, was not scooped up. And so he went around and helped. And then my uncle who was, you know, this young man, came across and helped us pack and get ready to move. And, and then we sold everything. You know, my mother had huge, beautiful dishes and we had a new console, RCA victor radio-phono-combination thing. And I think he sold it or gave it to some neighbor down the street. We just got rid of everything. And we had had a new refrigerator, an ice box. It was [gestures] it was still an ice box, I think. But got rid of everything. And I over our-- we had a fireplace and on the mantle I used to have a, a little yacht about, I don' ; t know how big it would be, you know, but from an adult point of view maybe about [gestures] that long. And, and the cabin was scooped up. It was beautiful, little old ship with a mast. And, the cabin was where I sat and it had wheels, and must have given that away to some neighbor or something. But it was a wonderful teak and Mahogany ship that was my kiddy car. But all those things-- all of our books-- we had two encyclopedias and we left everything and got on these buses that the Baptist church sent down for its members there weren' ; t that many members. And, the-- there was a Japanese minister who was a wonderful man of the church: Yamamoto Sensei, and my father was the only other man because all the rest of them were fishermen and they had been hauled away. So there were about two or three men. I think there was one other man, maybe an old man. And we got on the bus and it took us away to Los Angeles and the Baptist Church there had a summer, summer camp or something, with a kitchen, you know, and-- I, I think like little cottages and, uh, my grandmother was with us and my aunt and, and we all stayed in this little place and we felt very comfortable cause we had our-- all of our relatives with us. But, I remember Kaz Yamashita' ; s Father was taken away by the government-- he was a fishermen and his mother and my mother were good friends and so it was so sad. All the men were gone. So my father was one of the few men left. AT:And the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked, as a 15 year old, do you remember your reactions or, or what you were feeling at that time? Did you know [overlapping dialogue] CO:No, I think we, we knew that it meant that Japan had, you know, attacked America, and what that must mean for us. AT:Did you have-- CO:No. AT:Do you remember-- CO:Not much. No, not much understanding. AT:Did you have convers-- [overlapping] CO:A lot of fear. AT:Did you have conversations with your parents about any of that or-- CO:No, not much. My Auntie Kiki was my, my friend and, you know. And of course we spoke English and our parents didn' ; t. There was that difference. Whereas my aunts and uncles-- [overlapping] 2nd Interviewer:Auntie Kiki was only five, four-five years older. So she' ; s kind of [overlapping] like a sister-- CO:Yeah, my aunt was only five years older than I, we were good pals. 3rd Interviewer:And you didn' ; t know enough Japanese to communicate that well with your parents? CO:Who me? 3rd Interviewer:Yeah. AT:No. 3rd Interviewer:And they didn' ; t know that much English? CO:Well, my aunt, yeah. My aunt and my uncles, would spoke much-- 3rd Interviewer:They translated? [overlapping] CO:Much better Japanese. No they-- No, there was no-- no, I don' ; t think [overlapping from 2nd Interviewer] So we had a vague understanding of what was going on, you know. But, I don' ; t think the parents knew what was going on either. AT:And what were some, do you remember? Because I mean, Terminal Island was, of course, you know, very impacted immediately-- CO:Yeah AT:After Pearl Harbor. Can you tell us just sort of what was happening? Like what the feelings were at the time or, you know, because I imagine people were probably-- CO:Well, you know, when the, and then the men were taken, and-- AT:How soon, were people starting to-- [overlapping] CO:Well, my father was not because he wasn' ; t a fisherman and I think they were after fishermen because they had the idea that the fishermen were-- could contact the Japanese. Well, they weren' ; t doing any such thing because-- for one thing, the Japanese, unless they had planted people-- which I doubt-- the Japanese fisherman were a different, a different class of people than the ruling-- the, the Japanese who were rulers in Japan and it would have been orchestrating whatever, you know, whoever was orchestrating the, the war. Well the class differences, I think, the Japanese were very-- What is that? You wouldn' ; t even call it sensitive, you would say, class differences would, would mean that, you know, the ruling bodies in Japan would not be in-- 3rd Interviewer:Communication. CO:Yeah, communication with the likes of fishermen, you know, whereas my father was well educated. He' ; d been to England [laughs] It was [overlapping dialogue] different, you know, different class of people. AT:Was your family fearful that your father might get picked up by the FBI as well? CO:Yeah. Yeah. He was all packed, you know, and his suitcase all ready, but they never took him. And he could never understand why [laughs]. 3rd Interviewer:Wait, so they took the men somewhere else? CO:Yeah, and I think they-- 3rd Interviewer:Before you went to camps? CO:I think so. Oh, yeah. A little time before we went to camp and we left that island, it was like five months. 2nd Interviewer:So did the fishermen ever come back? CO:We went to Terminal Island. We went to Los Angeles because the Baptist Church helped us. Now how the other folks on that island, what they did, I don' ; t know. 2nd Interviewer:So you don' ; t know what the fishermen' ; s families ended up doing? CO:No 2nd Interviewer:Did they have to go with the mom and the kids? CO:Yeah except the Baptists. 2nd Interviewer:And the fathers weren' ; t around. CO:You know that were the Baptist and they went with us. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah, but you had no idea what happened to everybody else? CO:No, you know. 3rd Interviewer:Where did they take all the fishermen? CO:Pardon? 3rd Interviewer:Where did they take all the fishermen? CO:I don' ; t know at that time whether they took them to, 3rd Interviewer:They went straight to camp? CO:Well, they went to Lincoln, you know, what was the name of that place? AT:Um, there were a couple of Department of Justice camps, which were like separate from CO:From men, from women AT:And from like the 10 camps that we know. CO:It wasn' ; t known to anyone at the time. Where did they go? AT:Yeah. And those, those were technically internment camps because there were some German nationals and CO:That' ; s right, at that time. AT:Um, so you mentioned, um, you know, immediately after Pearl Harbor there was kind of this change of, you know, people were getting picked up and there was now, you know, a patrol on the islands. Um, how, so how soon after Pearl Harbor did the, did you hear about the Evacuation and have 48 hours? CO:Then we went, it was around February, I think we went to Los Angeles by way of uh the Baptist, the Great Baptist Church, whoever it is. Umm AT:What' ; s the name of the church? Do you remember? CO:Well it' ; s the Baptist, the head of the, was it called the, I don' ; t know. It' ; s a Northern Baptist. I, I have a book actually about those times. And, um, my friend Kanshi wrote a chapter in there. I was going to bring that, and I should have brought that. I could show that to you. Um. AT:And so do I have it right, that you, um, your family, the Baptist Church was offering, um, housing for families before the actual Evacuation? CO:Yeah and so we went to Los Angeles. I even have time to start going to the high school there. And I went to high school, uh, in Los Angeles, that city proper for, I don' ; t know, three or four months. AT:And what exactly was the, um, uh, the purpose of leaving Terminal Island and CO:Well, just because I think there were so many of us there, Japanese there, they wanted to get all the fishermen off that island, you know. AT:So was that a, was that a government order to evacuate the island? CO:Yeah, I think so. Yeah. AT:Okay. Um and can you tell me a little bit more about what it was like at, the living at the church? CO:Oh. And then we went to Los Angeles, and it was, it was, um, ummm, it was very pleasant actually. It was, uh, enclosed, you know, they had, um, it was an enclosed area. They must have had, ummm various churches I think in California. Used to have summer kind of rallies or summer programs where they used to, um, where the young people would, would gather together, uh, for maybe a month or whatever, uh, in these very pleasant places by the beach. Um, and they were from, you know, inland communities. I know my friend, uh, Ruth used to come down from her folks were farming, uh, living in a farming community. And they used come down to Terminal Island in the summer. And, uh, you know, we' ; d go to the beach and it would be very pleasant. And, uh, when the war started, let' ; s see, they were, well, we were all taken to, to different places. But before then, I think the numbers of people chose to, you know, move if they could, to places, uh, near their friends or to a community they were, well, we don' ; t know too many of these folks. But I know my, my aunt and, um, uncle and grandmother lived on, you know, the, in San Pedro, which was across from Terminal Island. And when it was time for us to go to Los Angeles, uh, and that the church took us, they decided they would come with us instead of being out there by themselves as we were very close anyway, you know, my mother and her mother. Um, and so they came with us and we were in Los Angeles together. And that was very, that was very helpful because, um, uh, you know, I, I may have been the, the oldest child in the family, but still very young. And whereas my Auntie Kiki was five years older than I, and I always considered her, my big sister. And I used to tag along with her whenever she' ; d go someplace interesting, I would go with her. Um, so was with us. And that was, you know, very comforting I think. AT:And um, so where did you go from the church in LA, um, then what happened to your family? CO:And then, we were, you know, there were, um, rumors of a. Okay, the Japanese were going to be sent inland, they' ; re going to be put in, uh, inland camps. We didn' ; t know where. Although people knew about Manzanar already. They said there' ; s going to be a place out in the desert and they' ; re going to make us go live out there. Uh, and then my mother, in fact, they started saying, " ; Well, we better get ready, um, the children ought to have a boots." ; So my mother takes us out and we' ; d go out and buy boots. 2nd Interviewer:Snow boots? CO:Yeah, a little, really cute little boots for all of us. Michi, small feet and um, and she buys some clothes for us. Get, get ready to go into the desert and we didn' ; t know if that was true. Rumors. Um, but it gave them something to do while we were in Los Angeles. But I went to school there in Los Angeles for about three months, I think. Um big school. Um, huge compared to what we were used to. And, um, and then sure enough, you know, the sign came up and said " ; All Japanese." ; I' ; ve got one of those messages. Anyway. AT:[Sneeze] Excuse me CO:Um, so we had to uh, carry one bag and go down to the train station and wait. So we waited and waited. And finally. And there were ah soldiers, um, with guns and they loaded us. Um, you know, there was no, uh, ummm, there was no noise. There were, there was no, uh, nothing we just said, " ; March into the trains" ; . And we did and we waited and they carried us out into the desert. And we weren' ; t too far from Los Angeles cause we at the border there, you know, the Colorado River was there, Arizona. AT:What was going on through, in your minds at the time, if you recall? You know, as a 15 year old who was already moved and gotten rid of some of your things, what was going on through in your mind, you know, get going onto the trains and the uncertainty. Do you remember how you felt? CO:Not really. And that' ; s, um, I don' ; t know. I suppose it' ; s suppressed, but, um, I can' ; t recall that we were. Well, it was, um, comforting I think because we were with our family, you know, and, um, my aunts and uncles were always um. And my uncle was very, um, he was a leader. Don' ; t you know, you know, he was, uh, someone that, um, well he' ; s the only, let' ; s see, it' ; s my aunt and my uncle and then, uh, and an aunt who was already married. But my uncle Yas was always, um, very knowledgeable, very savvy. In fact, you know, my father, um said, " ; Well, you don' ; t want it to be evacuated with the rest of us." ; So he gave him some money and told him to leave. So my uncle did leave. AT:Leaving the military zones? CO:Well, he left uh, I don' ; t think, came with us to Los Angeles, you know. His sister, his sister, married sister. Um, and we were all together and the his mother, but he went off to Pennsylvania and uh, and then I ended up in Pennsylvania with him and my auntie, um the one who went to camp with us. The one that was only five years older than I, we were very close and I lived with her and him in Pennsylvania. I went to high school there. My father, you know, said, well, we don' ; t want you to stay here because, uh, we want you to go to college. AT:So before we talk about Pennsylvania, um, you got on the train and so which camp? CO:Yeah, I left camp my father said, " ; Go." ; AT:Which camp did your family go to? CO:We were in Poston. 3rd Interviewer:Arizona? CO:Pardon? 3rd Interviewer:In Arizona? CO:Yeah, in Arizona. And because Papa was a contractor and uh, you know, he was, um, he made ships but he made, he built homes too. And he built a big uh Tenrikyo Temple on Terminal Island. Uh, Tenrikyo is a, uh, Buddhist sect. Wonderful big, uh, temple. Anyway, so when he went to camp. He was the camp, um, whatever they needed for. I don' ; t know if they, they must' ; ve had, uh, someone perhaps who oversaw the, uh, ummm. The camp buildings, a papa, was part of that team or whatever he, he rode around and uh, I don' ; t know what they did. Looked for leaks perhaps, you know. Um, but that' ; s why I think I was able to leave camp before any other, uh, anyone my size and age left camp. I left and went off by myself when, came to Chicago and met up with some Baptists who took me in. And then my uncle came along on his car and picked me up and we went to Pennsylvania. 2nd Interviewer:But the weird thing was before you were able to leave, you had to get FBI clearance? CO:Oh yeah. 2nd Interviewer:You had to make sure you were, what not a threat or whatever. And then you were able to get the out there, which is very ironic I think. CO:Oh, yeah, well, it was a given. I think, you know, the West Coast and East Coast clearance and the FBI and the local police had to know that you were uh 3rd Interviewer:How long were you at the camp before? CO:Not longer than a year and a half, I guess. I can' ; t 3rd Interviewer:That' ; s a good amount of time. CO:Yeah. You know, uh, you know, people were there for what, four or five years. AT:Do you remember your first impressions of the camp? CO:Well, when we went to camp, we, they gave us a huge bag and we filled it up with hay. Uh, and that was to be our mattress. And, uh, I kept saying, be sure we don' ; t capture any insects and whatever and put them in there. And, uh, I guess that was a serviceable, mattress dragged it into our little, a homely, homely spot. Um. AT:Do you remember your block number or your part? CO:I think I do. 7C I believe, but I' ; m not sure. AT:And, um, can you just describe a little bit about life in camp? Um, what were some of the routines for you as well? CO:Well, we ate in a mess hall, you know. We were lucky because we had a lot of men in our camp who had been, uh, who had been uh restaurant owners in Los Angeles, so we had good grub. Um, and they had to make the most of whatever the government gave them. Uh, just stuff. Um, perhaps not, you know, that they made a good meals. In fact, the kids used to go from, from block to block. I mean, they would hear about some block having good food, and so they would all go over there for lunch or dinner. Um, and, uh, our four blocks, uh, were the city blocks from Los Angeles and there are a number of the restaurant owners. And so they had uh some good meals they said. Well, we didn' ; t wander around, but uh 3rd Interviewer:Did you go to school there? CO:Yeah, they had, not right away, but then they started a school and, uh, ummm. But let me see. They can, um, they, uh, I don' ; t know how they recruited teachers, but we had some very poor teachers. And, uh, then we had a ummm, college students, uh, you know, Nisei, Japanese college students or college graduates who were teaching. And some of them were good and some of them were poor. 2nd Interviewer:I imagine you didn' ; t have any supplies, you probably didn' ; t have any books? CO:What? 2nd Interviewer:You probably didn' ; t have any books or anything, did you? CO:Oh no, we had books. No um. 3rd Interviewer:Were there white people? CO:Yeah, there were a few white teachers who came in. Some of them were. 2nd Interviewer:Volunteers? CO:Very good volunteers, dedicated, you know, people. 3rd Interviewer:And they were like sympathetic to CO:Yeah sympathetic. And others who were hardly able to teach. We had some really bad teachers too. 2nd Interviewer:How about the picking of cotton? Why did you have to do that? CO:What? 2nd Interviewer:The picking of cotton? CO:Oh yeah. Well, they tried to, you know, oh gosh. Um, they had a camouflage. Um, they wanted to start uh a camouflage? Uh, you can' ; t call it a plant because there aren' ; t enough. I suppose the, um, the government tried various ways to, uh, uh, to use the labor of these, uh, prisoners. Uh, and let' ; s see, um, I don' ; t know. Where were we? They drove us, um, high school kids, uh, away from the camp out somewhere. And, um, it was, um, uh, um, a massive, um, uh, cotton, cotton growing, very interesting. Big bolls of cotton. And we were picking up and then they gave us these huge bags and we were trailing, dragging behind us and picking cotton. And I looked at this thing and I thought, how many years would it take to fill this bag up. This thing was humongous and each person had one of these bags? Well, I suppose, you know, this is what happened to the Black folks. You know, picking cotton. And one at a time. And think, I picked half a day I think is what we did. AT:And that was high school students? That were CO:Yeah they were, you know 2nd Interviewer:Summer vacation CO:Now can they, well, could they do that? Of course they could do whatever they wanted. AT:Were you paid for that? CO:Oh, absolutely not. No. Did they give us lunch, I wonder? 3rd Interviewer:Was that close to the camp? CO:Yeah, it was, you know, just outside. 2nd Interviewer:They' ; re teaching you a life skill. CO:Yeah, oh gosh. And then they had this camouflage plant or whatever. Not plant, this. And they had adult women who went out there. And I don' ; t know, were they painting, when I think of camouflage, I think, oh, green and khaki colored paint. Were they, what were they doing? AT:I think they were weaving nets. CO:Weaving! AT:To create those giant camouflage. So that was taking place at Poston as well? CO:Yeah. And I don' ; t know how successful these things were, you know, I mean we, we went out for half a day and exhausted but we can, uh, I don' ; t know. 3rd Interviewer:So you only did that once? CO:Yeah, we didn' ; t go out again. They didn' ; t want us. We weren' ; t worthy. AT:Did your, uh, father, was he paid for his work? On the building? CO:Yes. I think in camp, they were paid $19, $16 and $12. 3rd Interviewer:Per? CO:Month, I think. Did they have to give that back to the government for feeding them? I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know how that, you know, cause I never did earn anything. AT:And so it was, um, your father who mentioned that you should leave as soon as you can? CO:Oh yeah, he kept saying, I should. He kept saying I should leave all the time! AT:How did you feel about that? CO:Oh I felt that, yeah, I' ; m going to leave. I' ; m going to pack my bags and I' ; m going to leave! 3rd Interviewer:But what about your siblings? CO:Oh, I had no concerns. Mid to none. 3rd Interviewer:Really? CO:Yeah, no. They were kids. You know, I was a big one. I was always the. Did they read the encyclopedia? No. AT:And so can you tell us about the process of leaving camp? You had to jump through a number of hoops, it sounds like? CO:Yeah, I think so. Fill out forms, don' ; t you think? AT:And so you said you went to Chicago first? And then from Chicago CO:Well, yeah, all this was, you know, the trains come to Chicago. And someone met me here. 2nd Interviewer:You probably took off from the L.A. train station? CO:No! It was Arizona. The middle of you know 2nd Interviewer:Wherever. Poston must have had a train station. CO:Must have had a stop. Well, that was an Indian Reservation. 3rd Interviewer:So you went alone? CO:Yeah. 3rd Interviewer:And then what did you do in Chicago? CO:I came to Chicago. And um 3rd Interviewer:Where did you go? CO:Um, the Baptist. There was a Baptist Seminary on the West Side. I don' ; t know if this still exists. I looked for it once. Um, but that was so many years ago. Um, and I think there was a family. There, there was a husband and wife who were devout Baptists. Um, I didn' ; t know them too well because we were from Terminal Island. They were from Los Angeles, but they had, um, they had gotten a job here at this, at the Baptist seminary here. 3rd Interviewer:Japanese? CO:Um, it was on the West Side somewhere. 3rd Interviewer:They were Japanese people? CO:Yeah, they were, they were people I may have known kind of nominally. Not much, but they were much older than I. 3rd Interviewer:How are they able to leave? CO:They probably clearance and you know, able. They got a job. They had people who, uh, 3rd Interviewer:Vouched for them? CO:There must' ; ve been a whole, you know, all the paperwork. 2nd Interviewer:How were you, how was this funded? You think that Uncle Yas helped you? And how did, you know, if grandpa, his assets were taken all that, where did the funds come for you to get the train, to get on the train? CO:Who knows. 2nd Interviewer:You don' ; t know huh? CO:My father may have had a bag full of money, for all I know. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. So then when you got here, how long did you stay, in Chicago? CO:I was here for only a few days I think. And then. 2nd Interviewer:Uncle came to get you? CO:What was their name? Teragawa? Um, they were going to, they were going to, um, have me stay with them at in, uh, there in, uh. 2nd Interviewer:Oh, stay here in Chicago? CO:And I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think I did. I think Uncle Yas came really right at that point and we, I got on and we drove out East. And it was snowing and October. It was October. It was snowing in Ohio as we drove along. 3rd Interviewer:How was he able to get out though? Uncle Yas. CO:Uncle Yas had a car. 3rd Interviewer:But how, why was he able to leave? CO:He never went in. 2nd Interviewer:He never went in. CO:He never went in because my father said don' ; t come, go away. 2nd Interviewer:Stay away. CO:Go to Pennsylvania, where we had friends. 3rd Interviewer:So what, did he live on Terminal Island? CO:What? 3rd Interviewer:Uncle Yas CO:Uncle Yas? What? 3rd Interviewer:Did he live on Terminal Island? CO:No, never. He lived in San Pedro, across the way. 3rd Interviewer:So when all of this happened, he, Baayan and and Auntie Kiki. 3rd Interviewer:They just left? CO:Used to live in San Pedro. 3rd Interviewer:But they just left? CO:They were there and then Baayan left with us. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. But yeah, Kiki and Yas went to Pennsylvania. CO:No, Kiki went to camp. 2nd Interviewer:Okay. AT:Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago? CO:Yeah, I went to a Walgreens or something and I was drinking. There was this guy sat next to me, thought I was French. He said are you French? It was probably, What are you? You know, never saw the likes of you. You must be French. That was the funniest thing I thought. I' ; ll never forget this as long as I live. So funny. AT:And so your Uncle Yas Picked you up and drove to Pennsylvania? CO:Pennsylvania. AT:And so how long were you.. where in Pennsylvania, and how long were you there? CO:Oh, we were, we went to, um, we were in the town of Lancaster. Nice town. Big high school. You have to swim to graduate from high school. No, not I, so we looked for a small school, went to East Lampeter. Uh, we found this nice apartment in Bird-in-Hand and uh, Kiki and Yas went through the door of Mrs. Weaver' ; s. Knocked on the door and she had a lovely apartment in this big house. Um, uh, the living room and kitchen and then two bedrooms upstairs. And this was a huge house. They only had three kids, but a big house. You know, [inaudible] I can' ; t remember that. They had two sets of stairs and a third one somewhere. Anyway, um, so Uncle Yas and Kiki went to the door and knocked on the door and. And uh, I guess there was an ad in the paper for an apartment and uh, Mrs. Weaver said to her husband, " ; Well, they' ; re very nice people there. They seem, they speak English, they say they' ; re Japanese, but they' ; re very nice people" ; and her husband said, " ; Well, if you think they' ; re, okay, yes, you know, rent to them." ; So they rented this nice place. Uh, we had the first two bedrooms and the whole front staircase and then this kitchen, this house was humongous. Have ever seen their place? You have. 4th Interviewer:Did he say what he did? 2nd Interviewer:Flowers a nursery. CO:Yeah. Huge house. 2nd Interviewer:A lot of land. AT:How long were you there? CO:I went to high school there, one, one year and then I was there for a little bit more. And then I went to college, up north and then my aunt got married, my uncle went to the Army. And you know, we gave up that place, but it was very pleasant. We, we stayed there. We were like family. In fact, um, some of those people, and I are friends to this day. How many years is it? 3rd Interviewer:Isn' ; t that the chicken place? CO:Pardon? Patricia? 3rd Interviewer:Isn' ; t that the chicken sex? 2nd Interviewer:Yeah, uncle and auntie did chicken sex. CO:Oh yeah, Uncle Yas, that was a new new thing that the Japanese had just, it isn' ; t invented. They had learned to. Well, they could, they could tell the sex of, of the chicken by looking at the on their behind and the Japanese 3rd Interviewer:Perfected the art. CO:Uh, well, a relative of Uncle Yas of the Kinoshita family started doing this in Pennsylvania. And uh, we learned a bit, knew of it. And so they said, well, he ought to come out there and learn this thing and, and then he could be a help because they didn' ; t speak very good English and Uncle Yas was, you know, so they were of help to each other. The Mita Company started and Uncle Yas was there and he learned to do this thing and he made money. He paid you by each, each. New Speaker:Each chicken, New Speaker:chicken to each little chick was a. New Speaker:Was that a Japanese thing? New Speaker:It' ; s a Japanese invention. 3rd Interviewer:Do they do that in Japan? CO:They did it and I guess in Japan and it was Baayan' ; s family that New Speaker:Brought it over. CO:Clever. These Japanese. 3rd Interviewer:That' ; s cool. CO:What? 3rd Interviewer:That' ; s cool. CO:Yeah. It was very cool. And uh, the poultry, all the Eastern seaboard had all the Japanese. Uh, and then they had a school, Mr. Mita had a school and taught all these Nisei men how to do this thing. AT:And um, so you were in Pennsylvania for about a year and then before going to college? CO:Yeah, I was there for the last year of high school. Then I went out north to New York state for college. AT:Where did you go to school? CO:Houghton College? Um, and Houghton, New York, near Buffalo. Near Cornell, not Buffalo. It' ; s halfway between Buffalo and uh, Cornell. AT:And so you would' ; ve been in college while the war was still going on, is that right? CO:Yeah. AT:Um, I, how was that being in college in New York, you know, as. CO:I was a curiosity, yeah. Um I wrote a column in the newspaper and one of them was about the evacuation and all, and one of the Boston newspapers carried that story. Someone cut it out and sent it to me and they sent a reporter down to talk to me. Yeah. Boston Globe. AT:So did people, um, out upstate, did they know about what happened to the Japanese on the West Coast? CO:Not really, no. AT:Did you have to do a lot of explaining? CO:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to me I was going around in Pennsylvania talking about, um, what was happening. The churches were especially interested, you know. AT:How did people respond or react? CO:Uh, surprised and uh, ummm. Um can' ; t remember that, you know, it was so different from any other, um, response. And people are always surprised that there were so many, you know, Japanese. This Is the first one they' ; d ever seen. And don' ; t tell me there' ; s a whole, you know, a band of band of Japanese. Yeah. AT:And. CO:Yeah. AT:At what point did you come to Chicago? Was that after college? CO:Yeah. And then my folks, um, after the war came here and then after a few years they went back to Los Angeles. Uh, my, my folks and my grandmother, they all went back, and my sister was here, but she went back and my brother went to college, he went to Houghton with me and then he finished. Um, let' ; s see, went a year to, um, oh, he got a Sociology degree here at the University of Chicago. Um, and then he went back to California and he taught, uh, Sociology until he retired recently. AT:What did you study at Houghton? CO:Psych and Soc. AT:And, um, so was it your, your parents, they came to Chicago? Um, what brought them to Chicago? CO:Well, I think, um, there were only a few places they could leave uh from camp. They wanted them to go to, um, some of the larger, um, cities out here. A lot of Japanese went to Cleveland too I know. And not as many to New York, I guess that was a bit too far. And a lot of Japanese came to Chicago. And I worked at the Japanese Resettlers for about a year. Uh, there was Mr. Yasutake and uh, Hagiwara, Abe Hagiwara worked there. Um And I was there for a little bit. AT:What did your parents do? Or your? CO:Oh, my father. Oh, my father built a ship in the basement of a, of the place they were renting. And then they took that boat up to my husband and his friend took that boat up to Grayslake. They left it on the, on the, it' ; s not a beach is it? Um, and someone stole it. We never told my father. 2nd Interviewer:But what motivated, um, the people who went away from the West Coast? Were they bitter? CO:No, they couldn' ; t go back for awhile, you couldn' ; t go back to California. 3rd Interviewer:She said they had to leave. 2nd Interviewer:But some people did come, go back. I mean, didn' ; t they? AT:That was after the war. CO:Yeah, after awhile. 3rd Interviewer:So what they do? What did they do in Chicago? CO:They got jobs, you know. I worked at Resettlers. Helped get jobs at Curtiss Candy. There were a number of places that hired a bunch of able-bodied Japanese. They liked Japanese workers. Good workers. AT:And so when you came to meet your family here, where were you staying? What neighborhood or? CO:Oh, where was I? I was and did they come first? Let' ; s see. Um they had yeah, they had very good friends. My mother' ; s very good friend. They used to come and visit us on Terminal Island. So they' ; re very old friends. Um, they settled in Chicago before my folks came and they had a place on the West Side and it was a three flat. So my folks rented a flat, then they didn' ; t stay there too long. Um, then my folks went back to California and my, uh, father, well I think he was itching to build his own place. So he went, they went back and uh, uh, he was going to build his home. What did he do though? He built, um, a tea room or something, didn' ; t he? 3rd Interviewer:In Chicago? CO:No, in Cali, in L.A. 3rd Interviewer:Did you live with them here? CO:Pardon? 3rd Interviewer:Did you live with them here in Chicago when you all met up? CO:I was here with them for only a short time and then they left. Uh, and then I got married. Um, and, and Michi was already married to also, she had. 2nd Interviewer:Mark. CO:Mark [Opolo?] already 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. CO:Yeah. 3rd Interviewer:Where did she meet him? 2nd Interviewer:Where did who meet who? 3rd Interviewer:Where did Michi meet her husband? 2nd Interviewer:Well, probably here. 3rd Interviewer:Where did Auntie Michi meet? 2nd Interviewer:Met Frank, here? CO:Yeah, here in Chicago, yeah. 2nd Interviewer:And then they went back to California. CO:And that' ; s a big family. AT:And um, how did you find the job at Resettlers Committee? CO:Um, how did I find the job? Let' ; s see. I was doing volunteer work for them too, I think. AT:What kind of work or position did you have? CO:Um, let me think. I worked for a group of doctors for a little bit and did bookkeeping for them, uh, on Michigan Avenue. And um, it wasn' ; t too long. And then I found out that Resettlers and that was the new place was looking for some people. And that was good fun. Um, we made our own meals, lunches at Resettlers. And there was a young woman, Eileen Nagatomo, who had never lived with Japanese. She was from either North or South Dakota. Uh, and she was so interesting that we all were there are at Resettlers and, uh, we made, uh, lunches. She was so much fun. AT:And how would you describe the, the Japanese American community back then, say in the days that you were working at Resettlers? CO:Well, people would, you know, had just come in or they would, this was early when people had just left camp or they were looking for lodging. And, um, as soon as, uh, the larger community knew about uh the Resettlers Committee, they would call us, um, uh, to report that they had jobs for, uh, and they, they liked Japanese American secretaries and, um, Curtiss Candy. I don' ; t know what those folks really did, but it was piece work. And the Japanese were clean and smart and you know, 3rd Interviewer:But maybe spies. CO:Yeah. And, uh, so, you know, they would call in and say they would have, they would have a position for 10 young Japanese American men from ages so and so and here' ; s the, yeah. It was very interesting. Yeah. And it got bigger and bigger as you know, they had the, Japanese had good, they had a good reputation. Um, and some of these large companies, this Curtiss Candy, I remember them well would, uh, call in and ask for number and then, um, the people who used to print the, um, umm, the yellow pages, you know, and they would want proofreaders and such. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. CO:The yellow pages. Donnelley and Company. Yeah. AT:We can be wrapping up soon, but just a few questions before we finish up. Um, one thing I wanted to ask is, um, so I know you mentioned you met your husband in Chicago. CO:Yes. AT:And um. CO:In church, yeah. AT:Which, which church was that? Where were you going at the time? CO:That' ; s a Methodist church. It' ; s a friend, one of my early, the childhood friend who wanted to start a choir at that church. And I was attending the Baptist Church on the South Side, um, at the University of Chicago. Uh, Jitsuo Morikawa uh, who was at the, the church down there. Uh, he was an excellent speaker and he came to Chicago. And they had a readymade a job for him. So, uh, and we, we learned that he was down at the University of Chicago, so some of us went down there. Uh, it was, uh, you know, it was at the Rockefeller Chapel. Fantastic, you know. AT:And, um, where was the Methodist Church? CO:This was a small group of Japanese Americans who started it, uh, with a minister. I' ; ve forgotten who the first minister was. Um, and they had a little choir and, uh, uh, a small congregation and it got larger. 3rd Interviewer:Ravenswood. CO:Yeah. AT:And so what inspired you to stay in Chicago? CO:Uh, well, my folks were here and then, um, got married. Uh, my husband was teaching at Loyola, the medical school, and then he was teaching at the University of Illinois, the medical school. Uh, he had a chance to go elsewhere, but I guess we never thought of moving. Well, we liked Wilmette. We liked the school system. AT:And at what point did you move out of the city to Wilmette? CO:Um, Teresa was just a toddler. 2nd Interviewer:As soon as my brother was born. You guys wanted, they wanted us to go to New Trier and I was so mad. CO:Go to a good high school. 2nd Interviewer:And there were not very many Asians in Winnetka. CO:No, no, no one at all. 2nd Interviewer:Well, the [Yakis?]. CO:Well, yeah, about the same time. 3rd Interviewer:So you' ; re moved to Wilmette in 1956 or 57. CO:Yeah. But there were those um, fine people who went around the block. 2nd Interviewer:And warned CO:Warned them that we were coming. And that we were, we were good, uh, good Americans. 3rd Interviewer:Who did that? CO:Never fear. 3rd Interviewer:Who did that? CO:The Cleveland' ; s, 3rd Interviewer:They told people not to worry? 2nd Interviewer:Yeah because this is a long time. This was before any civil rights thing. New Speaker:And then our house on Lake Avenue, the people who owned that house wanted to sell it to a Black family. No Black families came and so they had to take us and they said, I guess you' ; ll have to do. Yeah. AT:Well, we can be wrapping up, but before we do, is there anything else you guys want to ask or. 3rd Interviewer:I wanted to ask about more, a little, just one question about, um, Pennsylvania. Like those people, it sounded like you said they didn' ; t, they weren' ; t super familiar with what was going on in California. CO:No, yeah. 3rd Interviewer:And they also weren' ; t very familiar with seeing Japanese people or Japanese American people. CO:Never. 3rd Interviewer:But so, they, were they not discriminatory or like, CO:Well, they were one, Christians, a special brand of Christians, you know. They were Mennonites. Uh, they wore, you know, the long clothing, that was Patricia' ; s mother, 3rd Interviewer:All of the people in that area? CO:Patricia' ; s family was interesting. They were billionaires. They were the Reese Padlock Company. And I got a job with them one summer after I graduated from high school before I went to college. And, um, Mrs. Reese of Reese Padlocks was Patricia' ; s mother. Patricia mother was, um, uh, a, a rich American until she became, she became a reformed Mennonite and started wearing the clothes that they wore in Pennsylvania, you know. Um, and they wear a bonnet. They call it, plain people they call them. 3rd Interviewer:Uh, so those people are really respectful and not like racist towards you? CO:No, not at all. And of course, because she' ; s a Christian, but because first she was this rich, um, rich American, uh, well she went to college but almost barely. Um, she met her husband there. Lovely people. But um, yeah, they were, they were not, um, Pennsylvania Dutch, they were not Pennsylvania farm people. Yeah. So when we appeared at their doorstep, um, I think she was interested. She was curious. 2nd Interviewer:She said you were dark though. CO:What did she say? 2nd Interviewer:She said you looked dark. CO:Yes, that' ; s right. 2nd Interviewer:But nice. CO:And they speak English. You know, Uncle Yas was very uh, he was formidable. AT:Well, and before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or any final thoughts? CO:Well, I' ; m glad you' ; re doing this. I think it' ; s uh, um, yeah, it would be of interest. Um, you know, for those who come after us. And, um, why we came to these parts in the first place, because this was not a port of entry, you know. Whereas the Japanese and Chinese set foot on the West Coast many, many years ago, hundreds of years ago, it would seem now. Yeah. So every time we do go to a new place, um, we' ; re, you know, we bought a place in Michigan last year and, uh, we find it very interesting and the people are very welcoming, uh, and they' ; re full of curiosity. And I spoke to a group last year and now they want me to speak in the next town, this June. Because the country is made of so many, so many interesting, diverse peoples. I think it behooves us to speak up, you know, and educate folk. Yeah. AT:And if you could leave some kind of, um, message or, or legacy with your children, your grandchildren, what' ; s something that you would like them to know or? CO:Hmm. Well, they seem to know more, uh, more than I do about what' ; s going on in the world, um, before and after. But, uh, Christopher heard me speak when he was a little boy, uh, second grade or third grade, I think. 2nd Interviewer:Well, you' ; re still doing it. I mean you know, the children at Evanston high school were very um interested in hearing your story. CO:Yeah, were still interested. Well, of course our textbooks had a, the good chapters on, uh, on the evacuation and, and what do the children think about that? Um, many good questions. You know, at the end of the chapter. AT:Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and us, and CO:You' ; re welcome. AT:Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://www.saitolincoln.com/ohms-viewer-3.8.6/render.php?cachefile=OmachiChiyoko20180320.xml OmachiChiyoko20180320.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OmachiChiyoko20180320.xml
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Omachi, Chiyoko (3/20/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Chiyoko describes her experiences growing up on Terminal Island. She talks about moving to L.A. right before the Evacuation and her experiences at the school there. Chiyoko describes what camp life and food was like. She discusses leaving the Poston to go to school and work inland. She talks about a Mennonite family she has fond memories of. Chiyoko explains why she resettled in the Midwest and why she joined the Resettlers Committee and the importance of supporting other Japanese Americans. She is glad that the JASC is doing the oral history project and hopes her story and other stories will be helpful for future generations.
Subject
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945
Date
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2018-03-20
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video
Series: Untold Stories
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Nagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Omori, Chizu
OHMS Object
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Interview Keyword
Civil Rights
NCJAR
Seattle, WA
Berkeley, CA
William Hohri
Supreme Court
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
CWRIC hearings
Tsuru for Solidarity
Interracial solidarity
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/10/2022 Omori, Chizu (11/10/2022) 1:37:05 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Civil Rights NCJAR Seattle, WA Berkeley, CA William Hohri Supreme Court Japanese American Citizens League JACL Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians CWRIC hearings Tsuru for Solidarity Interracial solidarity Omori, Chizu Nagasawa, Katherine video 1:|16(2)|24(12)|32(8)|42(6)|59(9)|67(12)|75(1)|99(13)|109(8)|117(9)|124(12)|132(15)|142(5)|163(5)|191(1)|205(8)|214(2)|237(3)|248(5)|255(8)|268(9)|275(12)|284(12)|306(11)|364(3)|392(11)|408(6)|424(5)|440(2)|468(7)|479(7)|487(4)|495(10)|503(13)|511(13)|558(5)|566(12)|576(6)|587(9)|597(15)|606(16)|621(5)|636(12)|646(6)|688(2)|698(4)|707(7)|715(8)|761(13)|769(1)|779(10)|791(1)|817(12)|827(14)|854(1)|904(16)|918(2)|930(4)|954(5)|962(8)|983(3)|998(14)|1021(1)|1029(6)|1079(2)|1090(3)|1105(8)|1133(5)|1147(3)|1158(4)|1168(12)|1182(8)|1221(8)|1231(13)|1240(14)|1255(6)|1263(9)|1279(5)|1296(7)|1311(6)|1324(3)|1333(4)|1342(10)|1352(6)|1362(4)|1374(7)|1393(1)|1400(1)|1416(6)|1429(5)|1443(6)|1450(9)|1465(7)|1474(3)|1505(4)|1513(10) 0 https://vimeo.com/823010330/ee6a0d2b68 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/823010330?h=ee6a0d2b68" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Chizu Omori, a Nisei born in the San Diego area and incarcerated at Poston during World War II, describes becoming politically active at UC Berkeley in the 1950s, participating in the Civil Rights Movement, and supporting the Japanese American Redress Movement in Seattle in the 1970s and '80s. She remembers helping Issei draft written testimonies and delivering her own oral testimony at the Seattle CWRIC hearings. Chizu also shares her experience serving as a plaintiff for the NCJAR class action lawsuit spearheaded by William Hohri, including memories of her 1987 trip to Washington D.C. to attend the Supreme Court hearing. She concludes by describing her involvement with Tsuru for Solidarity and stressing the importance of interracial solidarity. Katherine Nagasawa: So today is November 10, 2022, and this oral history is being recorded at the Swan' ; s Market Cohousing building at 930 Clay Street in Oakland, California. The interviewer is me, Katherine Nagasawa, and the interviewee is Chizu Omori. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So thanks for being with us here. I was wondering if, could you please start by talking about when you first heard about the concept of redress, and what was your reaction to it? Chizu Omori: Well, let me see. It really goes way back. I was living in Seattle, and I was not particularly active in the JA community at the time, but of course, it' ; s not a big town, and I knew some people and all. And I started hearing about this movement for redress, must have been in the late seventies or something around like that. Yeah. And I think that' ; s when there were serious efforts at getting organized for redress. For one thing, there' ; s a congressman from Washington State. Actually, he wasn' ; t when all this started. His name is Mike Lowry, and my friend Henry Miyatake talked to him when he was a candidate for the seat in the House of Representatives. And Henry asked him, " ; We' ; ll organize and support you, but would you support a bill for redress for us?" ; And Lowry agreed to that. So we campaigned for him, and he won a seat. So Mike is a really great guy, and he introduced the first redress bill, I think it was in 1979, but I mean, a serious bill that was introduced into the Congress at that time. And so the Seattle JACL got very involved, and I know that they were progressive and ahead of the national organization in terms of redress because of people like Henry. Henry Miyatake and Shosuke Sasaki. Oh, boy, my mind. I don' ; t remember too well. But anyway, a bunch of guys, and they were like Boeing engineers. Henry kind of got interested in all this because he said, as a Boeing engineer, that there were a bunch of Asian American engineers at Boeing. And Boeing would have its ups and downs, boom and bust kind of cycles. And when they were in their bust cycle, they would lay off people and downsize somewhat, and-or reassign people to different jobs and all. And one of the superiors said to Henry, and I' ; m just boiling down these stories, but that, " ; Oh, you guys, you' ; ll take anything from us." ; I mean, I don' ; t know if that' ; s what he said essentially, but that was what Henry got out of the conversation. He said, " ; You know, you guys even went into those camps and didn' ; t even raise a fuss about it, so we know that we can, you know, push you guys around at Boeing, and you' ; ll just take it." ; That was what Henry understood this guy saying. And Henry got very angry about that. But then he began to think about it, and he said, " ; We really didn' ; t do much about it, did we?" ; And he started doing research. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: For you personally, had you heard of the concept of redress before? And what was your personal reaction when somebody like Henry told you, " ; Why don' ; t we campaign for this?" ; Chizu Omori: Well, okay. I come from a civil rights background. I went to Berkeley and got very active in the Student Civil Liberties Union. It was a group that actually formed an organization on Berkeley campus. And at that time, the issues were loyalty questionnaires, McCarthyism, and the Big Red Scare. And I think the university at that time was imposing a loyalty questionnaire, or oath, or something like that on their professors. And it was a big deal on Berkeley campus, and some professors resigned rather than signing this loyalty thing. And so that was up in the air, and we were campaigning against McCarthyism. I guess that kind of thing. So that was my kind of political start at Berkeley. And then that was the fifties. And then of course the Civil Rights Movement of the sixties came along, the Vietnam War, the protests against the Vietnam War came along. And Berkeley was a very hopping place in all of that, with feminism and anyway, I remember seeing real Civil Rights icons come to the Bay Area. I saw Stokely Carmichael speak, and James Baldwin, and Fannie Lou Hamer came. And so we all were very active. " ; We all." ; The people that I knew, anyway. So the issues of civil rights was something that I was familiar with from early on. Personally, I did not hang out with other Japanese Americans. They weren' ; t radical enough for me. So I had lots of political friends, but none of them were Asian American at that time. This is the fifties and sixties. So anyway, the question was, " ; Did I know what redress was, or had I heard of it, or anything like that?" ; Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. What was your reaction when the concept of redress for Japanese Americans came up? Because you were obviously very active in fights for other communities' ; civil liberties. Chizu Omori: Other issues. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Other issues, but when it came to your own personal experience and your family' ; s experience, how did you feel about fighting for redress for Japanese Americans? Chizu Omori: Yeah. And this was in Seattle. And so, well, there was a lot of opposition within the Japanese American community to redress. A lot of people, a lot, I mean, I can' ; t speak about numbers or what, but many people felt that this was not a good thing to do. They felt like, " ; Why bring up old issues, old grievances, and all that?" ; You know, " ; Don' ; t rock the boat," ; in other words. " ; Don' ; t make it hard for us again, so that we won' ; t get picked on again." ; Or, " ; We don' ; t ask for money." ; I mean, no Japanese asks for money. We don' ; t do that kind of thing. There was that. And, well, underneath it was all, I guess, a little bit of fear about trying to do something like this. When I heard about it, I said, " ; Yes." ; I mean, automatically, I would accept this. Although I really understood that it' ; s not going anywhere. I don' ; t think we' ; ll get very far, or that we would win or anything. But I just thought, " ; Well, it' ; s really an educational project to teach the American public about this history, and what had happened to us. And just for that reason, it' ; s worth it to work on this cause." ; So anyway, they had a really good group in Seattle. The people who ran that campaign were smart, organized, dedicated. Anyway, I felt like we had a mission, and so we were united in going forward with it. We in Seattle put out a little newsletter. And this is all in the days before computers, or smartphones, or any of this kind of fancy stuff, so it was labor-intensive kinds of activities. But we would keep the community informed on our progress and we would have fundraisers and we' ; d have speakers so that we kept it alive by involving the community in what we were doing. And then we were doing things like lobbying our congresspersons in the Seattle area, or the Northwest, and letter writing. And anyway, it was like learning politics. And also Mike Lowry did introduce a redress bill and I think one of his congressional aides was Ruthann Kurose. Ruthann Kurose comes from a family that was very active politically. And her mother, Aki Kurose, was a school teacher, and she was very vocal about civil rights and stuff like that. And so she became named Teacher of the Year and all sorts of things like that. And right now, there' ; s a school named after her in Seattle because of her activism and as being a civil rights activist, but particularly for redress. So anyway, so her daughter was part of the Lowry, his office. And so there was that, let' ; s see, foot in the door kind of situation where we had real access to our own congressman and we could talk to him about this and see what he was doing and how it was going and all that sort of thing. So we had a little bit of a special situation in Seattle. Also, we had the first Asian American governor in the United States, I think. A Chinese American. I can' ; t even think of this name right now, but Seattle had a nice social milieu in which all of the Asian American groups, the Chinese Americans, and the Filipinos, and maybe Vietnamese who are refugees and all that, they kind of lived in this area called the International District. But anyway, they were all very supportive of each other. So this guy who became governor, I remember he was a lawyer, and he was very supportive of redress. He had came to all of our meetings and did all that kind of thing. So I think that was kind of a special situation, and we felt that we weren' ; t doing it alone. That we had lots of support within the community. Katherine Nagasawa: And also your congressional representatives, too, like access to them. Chizu Omori: Yes. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m curious about some of the sort of civil rights activism, and the education that was happening in the fifties and sixties. One thing you mentioned when we talked on the phone was that there was also more education around Japanese American incarceration that happened in the fifties and sixties, that contributed to the Redress Movement, like Michi Weglyn' ; s book. Chizu Omori: Yeah. That came out in 1976. Katherine Nagasawa: Or Farewell to Manzanar, or I know the first Day of Remembrance was organized in Seattle. Chizu Omori: In Seattle. Yeah. Right. Katherine Nagasawa: So can you talk a little bit about the role that those books and events played in maybe galvanizing support for redress, or even for you personally in learning about camp, the experience? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Yeah. So it was in the seventies, it really got started. Now, I know that they had yellow power movements and such on the campuses down here. I don' ; t know if that was happening at the University of Washington up there because I was not a student, so I didn' ; t know if that was going on. But I think that actually Black civil rights did give us the, what should I say? Made us think about Asian American civil rights. And I think people would say to me, " ; What about you guys? You guys were in the camps." ; And I said, " ; Yes, we were." ; That kind of thing. So I was prodded by other civil rights activists about our own situation, our own history. Yeah. So I think there was a raising of consciousness, you might say, by all peoples of color because of the Black civil rights movement. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember reading Years of Infamy, or going to the Day of Remembrance, like early Day of Remembrance or pilgrimages? Chizu Omori: I did not go to that one, although I knew the people who were involved, Frank Chin and Frank Abe and those people. And how come I didn' ; t go? Well, they were saying all the people who had been put into that assembly center in Puyallup Fairgrounds, that they were going to go. And I don' ; t know. I may have thought, " ; Well, I wasn' ; t one of those persons," ; or something. I don' ; t know what I was thinking. Anyway, but I knew Frank Chin and Frank Abe and Karen Seriguchi and people like that. I knew them. So of course, I joined in after that. But I know that there was a huge amount of interest in it, that thousands of people came out to that, you know. And so I think it impressed on the leadership that this is not just a small group of rabble-rousers or something, but that within the community, that there was a feeling of grievance and awareness of that camp experience when so many people showed up. And so that was a catalyst for more organizing. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you also tell me the story about how you got involved with NCJAR and Bill Hohri? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: From the very start? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Well, because I was active in the Seattle group, word came out that there was this lawsuit and they wanted representation from all the various areas of, well, of the United States, but particularly areas where the people who were incarcerated came from. And the Pacific Northwest was just one of the major areas. So at one of the meetings, Cherry Kinoshita, who was a terrific chairperson of our redress group, said that they' ; re asking for named plaintiffs, that it doesn' ; t really mean that you have to be there for everything or something. Named plaintiffs is just a symbolic thing that our area is being represented by some people. So nobody wanted to volunteer for that. We didn' ; t know what it was. So anyway, so they just sort of chose people. They said, " ; You be one of them," ; sort of like, you know? And so, yeah, Cherry asked me, " ; You be one of them." ; And I said, " ; Well, what does it mean? What do I have to do?" ; And she says, " ; Nothing, it' ; s just your name." ; So about three of us, our names are put on the list of the named plaintiffs on the class action suit of that. And I have to tell you that I was pretty ignorant about what it was. And so I got to learn more because that was a very well-organized group and they had a monthly newsletter and they kept us very informed on what was happening. And I know they were trying to raise funds and all that. So then William Hohri came to talk to us several times over a period of years there. And so I don' ; t know how it happened, but William Hohri and I became kind of like pen pals. I don' ; t know why, but we started corresponding. And so that kept me very involved in the lawsuit. So let' ; s see. That must have been around 1980 or something when they were putting the actual case together. Katherine Nagasawa: What was your first impression of William Hohri? How would you describe him as a leader of NCJAR, and what do you think made him a good leader for that movement, and the lawsuit? Chizu Omori: Very smart. First-rate intellect and he wrote well. The newsletter was really interesting to read because everything was written so well and all. And it was very serious in tone, like even though it was quite a daring kind of activity but they learned how to do it, you know? I mean, that meant, " ; What does it take to start a lawsuit of this type?" ; And everything. And so they got lawyers involved to do. Well, they engaged a law firm and so a very fine law firm, I think, who were, let' ; s just say, veterans of Civil Rights litigation and stuff like that, so that they could present a case that was solidly based on rules and laws and all that. So it felt like, " ; Yeah, this is serious. It isn' ; t frivolous, or too stupid," ; or something like that, that it would be taken seriously. So yeah. And I think William had a lot to do with that because he was a very serious person and he really kind of dedicated his life, devoted a number of years of his life to doing this. And through him, I met Aiko Yoshinaga-Herzig [Herzig-Yoshinaga], and her husband Jack Herzig and lawyer Peter Irons. Other what I consider real movers and shakers in the Redress Movement, the general Redress Movement. And for that, I' ; m eternally grateful, because those people were wonderful people and also very dedicated. So I was kind of involved in the legislative redress action, what was going on with the Seattle JACL and all that. I would never join the JACL, but I was one of them doing redress work. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Chizu Omori: Anyway, yeah. My family hated the JACL, so I really couldn' ; t. Katherine Nagasawa: What did your parents think about redress? Did they align with one of the groups like NCJAR or NCRR? What did they think about your work in redress, too? Chizu Omori: I don' ; t know if they even knew about it. I lived in Seattle. They lived in Oceanside near San Diego and I really didn' ; t see them very much. And I think that if I had been closer to my dad and able to talk with him over time, that he would have been very supportive of all this, I think. But we were not close in the sense that we exchanged a lot of letters or phone calls or anything like that. No. They knew that I was politically active, and so, from way back, so it' ; s like, I don' ; t suppose they were terribly interested in what I was doing. I don' ; t know. But that' ; s what I did. And anyway- Katherine Nagasawa: It was a little separate from family? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Yeah. Rather separate. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I just want to check about silencing phones. I think I heard a little ding. I just want to make sure it' ; s not my phone. Chizu Omori: Oh. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you know if your phone has notifications on, or- Chizu Omori: Well- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you mind if I turn off the- Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Thanks. Chizu Omori: I think I' ; ll just turn mine off too, because it' ; s very loud. I have it ringing very loud, because- Katherine Nagasawa: Oh yeah? Chizu Omori: ... so that I can hear it from any room. Katherine Nagasawa: That makes sense. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: That makes sense. Chizu Omori: Yeah. I' ; m getting hard of hearing. Katherine Nagasawa: The other question I had was whether you knew the other plaintiffs because they were plaintiffs from all over the country, right? There are several in the Midwest. So can you talk about the relationship with the other plaintiffs and did you ever meet with them or did you have to do any work for the lawsuit? Or did the law firm and Bill Hohri do most of that work? Chizu Omori: We literally were just symbolic names. I mean, I don' ; t think they asked us to do anything particularly specific. Now I happen to know one of the other plaintiffs from Southern California. No, no, Northern California. Yeah, that' ; s right. Northern California. His name is Harry Ueno. And Harry Ueno was somebody that we, that my sister and I interviewed for our film, Rabbit in the Moon. And so we knew him and he was one of the named plaintiffs. Katherine Nagasawa: Did you ever meet the other plaintiffs in DC? I' ; m trying to think, Nelson Kitsuse or some of the other Chicago ones? Chizu Omori: No, we did when the suit was going to be heard before the Supreme Court. So I' ; m assuming that most of the named plaintiffs were at that. I' ; m not sure because I didn' ; t know the other named plaintiffs, but they were all invited to be there. So I imagine, yeah. In fact, that attracted, for instance, Gordon Hirabayashi came and, well I knew Gordon anyway because he' ; s a Pacific Northwest person. But anyway, I sat next to him in front of the Supreme Court and Fred Korematsu and his wife were there. So Mike Masaoka from the JACL was there. And I' ; m sure there were other people that I didn' ; t know or recognize but they were there to hear the case. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Can you tell me about that day or walk me through the entire trip. Had you planned to go from the beginning when Bill Hohri invited you, and how did you decide how long were you there for? Chizu Omori: Well, now I was notified that there was going to be this thing and our chapter, I think our redress chapter covered my plane ticket, I think, round trip plane ticket and NCJAR, they paid for the hotel accommodations. So it really didn' ; t cost me anything to go. And I think we were just there for maybe three days or so, something like that. Yeah. But we all got together for a big dinner, I remember. And there was a birthday party for Harry Ueno ' ; cause it was his birthday. And Hannah Holmes, who was a deaf person, she was one of the named plaintiffs, and she was there. I think she gave the birthday party, yeah. And Michi Weglyn and, Michi and Walter Weglyn, were there. And I had met Michi before, so I knew her. My hotel room, I was going to share it with Mine Okubo, the artist, she was signed up for, and she was there, but she never showed up to be my roommate. So she must have gotten, she probably had friends or something that she stayed with. But anyway, she was there to see the trial. Katherine Nagasawa: Wow. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: How exciting to be with all of those - Chizu Omori: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Incredible array of people. Chizu Omori: Named civil rights activists and fighters for redress and all that. Yeah. So it was a very, it' ; s a high point in my life, so very special. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you walk me through the day of the hearing? What do you remember from that? Chizu Omori: I remember that they have very strict rules in any of this sort of thing. So we had to wait our turn because other cases were being heard and we were given numbers and we went in and sat down inside. And Gordon was sitting next to me and Gordon kept nodding off. And the proctors, there' ; s people who are walking around the room just to keep an eye on everybody who' ; s seated. And they would come by and gently prod him to wake him up. And it' ; s just little things like that you remember. And I remember that there were a couple of rows of chairs in front and everybody else was seated. And then Mike Masaoka with a whole entourage of people came in and sat in on the chairs on the front. And I thought, " ; He has clout." ; Somehow, he got special seating right up front and all that. And anyway, I did not know Mike Masaoka, but you get vibes from that kind of situation. I thought, " ; He must be considered a big wig to be given special consideration like that." ; So it gave me a little insight into what his role had been as a lobbyist in Washington DC. And then when the actual justices walked in, they' ; re up on a, as I recall, it' ; s maybe not right, but in my mind it was sort of raised, you know, sort of? So when they walked in, they were a little higher than us. And they had these black robes on and they had these high back chairs and it' ; s very solemn and very serious seeming. And then very dramatically, Antonin Scalia stood up and walked off the stage or just walked out. And like, " ; What was that all about?" ; Apparently Scalia had recused himself because he had heard the case in a lower court and had ruled against our case. So he did not participate in hearing our case. But certainly Thurgood Marshall was there and I think Sandra Day O' ; Connor was there, and all of the other justices at that time were there. Anyway, so the government guy -- what was his name? Anyway, representing the government. He came in very formal clothes. Morning coat it' ; s called, I guess. But it' ; s to give the whole thing a more -- what should I say? Well, more drama really, but formality that you have to dress a certain way to represent the government in front of the Supreme Court or whatever. And he starts giving the government' ; s side of it, and suddenly he' ; s interrupted by Thurgood Marshall. And Thurgood Marshall says, " ; What' ; s the difference between locking all these people up and murder?" ; And the lawyer is taken aback and he stammers, " ; What do you mean? I mean, murder is killing," ; he said. But Marshall just persisted. And he said, " ; What' ; s the difference? You know, take everything away from these people, their homes and everything else, and lock them up. Well, that' ; s just as good as killing them." ; he says. Something like that. And it' ; s kinda like, suddenly, for me, it was a real shock to hear this exchange because it seemed almost surreal. Like what is he saying? But then later our lawyer Ellen Carson, Ellen Godby Carson, said that Aiko turned to her, and she said to Ellen, " ; Boy, Thurgood Marshall, he gets it," ; she said. Anyway, I heard that afterwards. But anyway, I' ; ve been rereading William Hohri' ; s book on redress called Repairing America and he has that whole exchange there in the book. And I read it years ago and I didn' ; t remember that he had included that. So I went back and read it and I said, " ; Yes, I really heard this and it really did happen." ; And just how startling it was that Thurgood Marshall kind of recognized the seriousness of what had been done to us. Katherine Nagasawa: I had interviewed somebody in Chicago who was part of NCJAR and she was there that day. I don' ; t know if you remember her, Mary Samson, her maiden name was Omori as well. Mary Omori. Chizu Omori: Yeah, I know there' ; s several Omoris. Katherine Nagasawa: There' ; s a lot of Omoris. Chizu Omori: But we' ; re not even related, I don' ; t think. Katherine Nagasawa: She mentioned the Thurgood Marshall moment as well as standing out to her. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m so sorry. But there was some noise from a cart when you were starting your story. Do you mind retelling that story one more time, just because I think the audio got messed up. By just starting with, there was the person from the government who was giving his spiel - Chizu Omori: Fried. I think Fried, I think that was his name. Katherine Nagasawa: But then Thurgood Marshall interrupted. Could you start by re-explaining it? Chizu Omori: Yeah, yeah. Well, it opened with this, I think he was called Solicitor General, I don' ; t know. But he was representing the government and he was wearing what was later described as a morning coat, but some kind of very formal dress, which I guess to show the seriousness and the kind of rules and formality of appearing before the Supreme Court, I guess. And he started talking about it. And anyway, I don' ; t remember what he said, but I do remember that Thurgood Marshall interrupted him and said something like, " ; Well, what' ; s the difference between." ; He used a word, but he meant rounding all these people up and locking them up. " ; What' ; s the difference between that and murder?" ; And this really startled this government attorney, and he started stammering and he says, " ; Well, murder is a lot worse. It' ; s killing." ; But Marshall kept pressing him and saying, " ; Yeah, but if you take a person and you make him lose everything and all that, and then you stick him in a camp like that, how different is that from murder?" ; And again, the government official really had no answer for these particular questions, but he said, " ; But we really didn' ; t kill anybody." ; Well, it turns out, of course they did kill some people. We know that. But anyway, he said they were allowed to leave the camps at the end of the war and all. So that exchange kept going on, and I don' ; t really remember every detail of it, but Thurgood Marshall was really kind of sticking it to him right there in front of everybody in a real way. And Ellen Carson, who was our lawyer, she told me later that Aiko Herzig prodded her and said, " ; Boy, Thurgood Marshall, he really gets it." ; So anyway, that was memorable because Marshall was sticking up for us in a very direct way. Katherine Nagasawa: I remember we talked about this over the phone, but I wanted to ask you again, did you ever feel like the lawsuit had a shot? Or I guess, what was your reaction when it was declared moot at the end? Chizu Omori: Well, did it have a shot? I mean, it was a very well constructed case. I felt like, how are they going to refute what we' ; re asking for? That kind of thing. How are they going to do that? So I was curious about what' ; s going to happen here, how is this going to develop? But I' ; m sure that even the Supreme Court, and we sure know that now, that politics also plays a role in what the Supreme Court does. And I imagine there must have been some alarm at some level that, " ; Hey, if they win their case, do you know how much it' ; s going to cost us?" ; I don' ; t know, something -- billions of dollars. And what would it take to reverse, I mean, to refute what we' ; re presenting? Because it was very clearly laid out all of these violations of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and all those things, you know? So even as an academic exercise, it' ; s sort of like, " ; How? What are they going to do? How are they going to handle this?" ; Well, they chose not to. And when it was declared moot, I asked Peter Irons, " ; What does that mean?" ; And he gave me some kind of legal answer, which I don' ; t remember. But anyway, they declined to carry the case any further, is what moot said to me. It was over. So it was a disappointment, but the scuttlebutt later was that what it did is it prodded the action in Congress, passing the legislation.That was going to be a lot less costly for the government then had we won our lawsuit. Katherine Nagasawa: It seems like all the different approaches, including the Coram Nobis cases, also contributed in their own way. Chizu Omori: Yes. Yeah, I think for redress, there were three major actions going on -- NCJAR, Coram Nobis, and then pushing for legislation through Congress. And we really kind of won in the sense that, Coram Nobis, they did manage to vacate all those cases. And then we got up to the Supreme Court, can' ; t go any farther than that! And then they did pass the legislation in Congress. So it was kind of a lucky confluence of many currents going on here that resulted in redress. Katherine Nagasawa: And that you were involved in several of those currents too, you know, that you were also lobbying for the redress legislation in addition to being a plaintiff. Chizu Omori: Yeah, and then I knew a lot of the people involved in the Coram nobis cases, and there were the same people, Aiko and Jack and Peter Irons and all those lawyers, you know. I knew some of them up there in Seattle. And so we were really one really large movement, I mean, moving towards a certain goal. And that' ; s what it took. It took a lot of organizing. It took a lot of, well, I guess they had to raise a lot of money for all these different things, although so much of it was done pro bono and all that. But anyway, the community rallied to support all the movements. Yeah. And that was the, what should I say? Moment of truth for the community. I think that most people have probably thought we don' ; t mean anything, or what happened to us, it doesn' ; t, nobody else cares or anything like that. But I think that by organizing and doing it in a legal sort of way, we didn' ; t do marching in the streets. And I know that in Canada, I think they did. I think I read that they did some of that kind of stuff, protests and all that. But we didn' ; t. But we prevailed. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s incredible. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, one thing I' ; ve been thinking about and chewing on is just the differences in the approach between the JACL, the legislative approach and then the judicial approach, and how with the lawsuit, Japanese Americans were more masters of their own destiny because you are the one suing the government and you' ; re not as passive as - Chizu Omori: As a class, meaning all of us. Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, you are. And you' ; re not as dependent on votes from senators or representatives. Chizu Omori: All that horse trading, and you know? Katherine Nagasawa: And that you' ; re really helping inform what you' ; re complaining about with the lawsuit. Chizu Omori: Yes, yes. Katherine Nagasawa: So I guess, what' ; s your reaction to that, the idea of maybe perhaps a more proactive versus passive approach? How would you characterize maybe those different tactics and how you feel about each one of them? Chizu Omori: Well, they' ; re different, of course. And I can' ; t say that one was so much superior to the other. Spelling out the violations of the laws and the constitution was very important because it was done through the courts and all, and the law of the land sort of thing. And so it spelled out why we were demanding redress or consideration for the wrongs that were done to us in a way that confronted the courts. Well, and ultimately Congress really. Whereas with the redress, the legislative way that they did it, I mean, there was a lot of contention over the idea of commissions and the hearings, and a lot of people thought, " ; What' ; s the point? Of course a wrong was done to us. We don' ; t have to tell them. I mean, show all of our scars and everything else." ; They didn' ; t think that was something that we needed to do. But on the other hand, the way it worked out is because they had the hearings in all these different cities and places, and they allowed ordinary people who weren' ; t necessarily civil rights activists or legal scholars or whatever, to talk about what happened to them and also the grievances or whatever that they might want to talk about. And the hearings were like five minutes each, at least that was the rule. It was violated a lot, of course. But anyway, but they also allowed people to give written testimony that you could write something and turn that in without having to just have a five minute small, very short time to talk about years of grievance. And I testified at the Seattle hearings. Anyway, but what it did for the community is they heard these stories for the first time, especially the younger people. They didn' ; t know a lot of what their parents had gone through because parents wouldn' ; t talk about it. For a whole lot of reasons, they didn' ; t never heard these stories. And so our community was hugely educated by the commission hearings. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, and then it was also maybe an opportunity for Japanese Americans to tell their own story as opposed to it being - Chizu Omori: To express themselves. Katherine Nagasawa: Being told for them. Yeah. Chizu Omori: Yes. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I do want to ask you a bit about the hearings, your experience testifying and being there. I think one of the things first I wanted to ask is you helped a lot of Issei write their testimonies. Chizu Omori: Well, not a lot. Katherine Nagasawa: Or a few? Chizu Omori: Yeah, I did some of that. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you talk about what that experience was like? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Well, for me again, I mean, I was hearing stories that I had never heard before, and I became very aware of how much the Issei had lost during that whole incarceration period. And then they were kind of silenced because the JACL really did not seem to care very much about the Issei generation. Their whole thrust was for Nisei to show how American they were, how loyal they were, and how worthy they were to be citizens and to stay in the country. And at that point, no Issei could become a citizen anyway, so their main thrust was for citizens. And so the Issei were kind of completely left out of everything until 1952 or something like that when they allowed them to become naturalized citizens. But hearing these stories was like, when I went in, I was 12 years old, so what did I know about what had happened to everybody? But hearing the Issei stories made me realize that some people, they lost their lives, in some way. It really was like a murder, in that they could not ever be citizens, and so they had no power in this country. They had lost all they had worked for their whole lives. Well, not everybody, but most people did. And they were really too old to start over. And so they became dependent on their children, or maybe government handouts, or I don' ; t know how they got by, or out of kindness of other relatives, or who knows, you know what I mean? But the Issei were just put in a very difficult situation. And I think a lot of them died just having not even close to recovering what they had had before the war. And that their voices were kind of silenced, because they didn' ; t speak English. Whatever documents and stuff they left was in Japanese, so we don' ; t even have access to their diaries or their stories or whatever. And so they' ; re the ones, that one generation just kind of, yeah, they were kind of, I won' ; t say murdered, but their lives were taken away. And of course, some of them were very bitter and went to Japan and all of that kind of thing, too. Katherine Nagasawa: And so for the process of helping them write their testimony, were you interviewing them and helping them transcribe? Chizu Omori: Yeah, I' ; d go to their homes and, you know, when I think back on it, my Japanese was not very good at the time, but I guess I managed, trying to figure out what they were telling me and with their broken English, they were telling me. But anyway, just kind of pieced together what they wanted to say. Katherine Nagasawa: And those were just submitted as written testimony? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. And then can you tell me about your process of delivering an oral testimony at the Seattle hearings? What was your process like of developing that? Chizu Omori: Oh, what was I going to say in five minutes? So yeah, I had to think real hard about what am I going to say? Anyway, I thought, well, I want to say something about my family, but I also just really wanted to say how... I have to go back and read that. I think it was pretty good, but I don' ; t remember exactly what I said. Something like, " ; All three governments, the checks and balances that are so highly touted, all failed us." ; The legislative, and the judicial, and the whatever, the president' ; s -- I forget the three branches. Anyway, all of them failed us, in that they really tore the laws of the land to pieces in what they did to us. And that, in my case, my family decided to leave this country and my father was an Issei, he was born in Japan, and go back to Japan because he felt there was nothing for him to stay in this country. And I didn' ; t want to go to Japan. I had never been there. And so I fought with my parents about their decision to go to Japan. Because I was a minor, so I didn' ; t have a say in that. So I was pretty angry, because I didn' ; t -- that' ; s where I understood that, well, I' ; m not Japanese. I' ; m really American. And I also felt that I didn' ; t want to go to a country that was so patriarchal, where the men were such, you know. The way they ruled their families, and I' ; d seen a lot of that. And I said, " ; No, thank you. I don' ; t want to have to conform in that way." ; So that was my reasoning, and so I wrote some of that into my testimony. Katherine Nagasawa: How did your parents end up in Oceanside then? Chizu Omori: Back? You mean after the war? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, later on. Chizu Omori: I don' ; t know, they just went back to where they were before. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, I see. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Chizu Omori: Not to a house or anything like that, that was all gone. The land that we had been farming on became Camp Pendleton, the marine base down there. So, I don' ; t know, my father wanted to become a -- I guess he wanted to have his own business, so he wanted to farm again, so that' ; s why he went back. Katherine Nagasawa: So, he didn' ; t go to Japan actually then? Chizu Omori: No, the family did not go to Japan. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. But he had wanted to, and then... Chizu Omori: He signed up for it. Katherine Nagasawa: He signed up to go back, I see. Chizu Omori: Yeah, we should have gone to Tule Lake. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh. Chizu Omori: But we never did. And I never talked to him about it, my father, never talked to him. " ; How come we didn' ; t go?" ; Maybe he didn' ; t know, either. I don' ; t know. But anyway, I suspect that Tule Lake just got too full, and they just said, " ; Don' ; t send any more people." ; So they said, " ; Okay, that' ; s it, no more to Tule Lake." ; So the rest of us got lucky, and I know of other people who were No-Nos and all that, and they didn' ; t go to Tule Lake. So there was some kind of arbitrary decision made. The whole program -- I' ; ve studied all this stuff, and it' ; s sort of like the right hand didn' ; t know what the left hand was doing, practically. Very, you know, ad hoc. I think they would just make policy because they had to or something like that. But nothing was terribly planned out. So, that' ; s why Tule Lake became such a mess. They didn' ; t know what to do with those people. As far as they were concerned they were all subversives. Katherine Nagasawa: So when you were delivering your testimony, what was it like delivering it to the commissioners and then to that big audience of community members? What do you remember about that? Chizu Omori: Well, five minutes, and there were lots and lots of people giving testimony. So my five minutes, I don' ; t think anybody paid attention to it or heard it or anything. And it was clear to me that a lot of the commissioners were not paying attention anyway. I think for them, they just had to sit there and hear testimony after testimony. So they' ; d already been to several cities and stuff, so I' ; m sure just was very routine stuff at that point. Maybe William Marutani, being the only Japanese American on the commission, I think he was paying attention some. But actually there were absences. Not all the chairs were filled or anything. So, it really impressed upon me that bureaucracy is bureaucracy. They chose these people to be commissioners, probably not necessarily on how much they knew about all of this or what, but for various political reasons, they chose these people. And so they chose to be there, but that didn' ; t mean that they cared about what was going on. I don' ; t know. Katherine Nagasawa: Even if the commissioners weren' ; t paying as much attention, what about the audience? What was it... Chizu Omori: The audience was paying lots of attention. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you remember of who was in the audience and what their reaction was? Chizu Omori: Oh, community members were there, yeah. I think they actually scheduled some, did they, in Seattle? I think I read some place that they had evening meetings at some places to allow people who are working to be able to come to the commission meetings. Anyway, they had to have extra rooms with the testimony being piped into it, you know, because so many people came. And the press really did show up and cover all of the hearings. So I think there was kind of an excitement in the community. That maybe a lot of them came out of curiosity or because somebody they knew was going to be there or who knows what. Anyway, a lot of people came, and I think that they heard these stories for the first time, too. I imagine there were probably kids who heard their parents say things they' ; d never heard before. So it was very -- I think the communities realized that it was important and that they were being heard for the first time or whatever, and so they were paying attention to what was going on. Katherine Nagasawa: I remember hearing at the Chicago hearings that people were crying. Chizu Omori: Oh, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: And it was really emotional. Do you remember any sort of emotional reactions? Chizu Omori: Not so much in Seattle. In Seattle, our group, Cherry Kinoshita and those folks, we organized a series of mock hearings and we had people practice what they were going to say. And we led a very orderly series of testimonials and things. And so I don' ; t recall too many tears or anything. I understand that Los Angeles was a real noisy ruckus almost and people crying and people. Oh, and the white woman, Baker, whatever her name was. Katherine Nagasawa: Lillian Baker. Chizu Omori: Lillian Baker being thrown out and all that. Well, we were spared the drama of Lillian Baker. But we also had Aleuts show up to testify in our hearings. So we heard that for the first time. Yeah, I was sent out to try to find some people because a lot of Native Americans from Alaska, they come down to Seattle. There' ; s a lot of people going back and forth. So I tried to see if we could find some people to testify. We did. I just remember going to bars along the waterfront in all kinds of places like that, trying to see if I can find some people who knew about it or who would be interested in testifying. So that was kind of fun. I did meet some Native Americans and we had people testify. Katherine Nagasawa: So you were doing that grassroots outreach then, to try to get Aleut people to testify? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Wow, that' ; s incredible. What do you remember of, was it hard to get them on board? Or what were the conversations like? Chizu Omori: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was hard, because they... Actually, Cherry Kinoshita, at the very beginning, when we started organizing for all this, she wanted to be very inclusive. And we reached out to Aleut groups, we reached out to anybody who wanted to be interested and show up. So church groups and all kinds of groups. And we started out with lots of interest, but over the years, people drifted away. So it always comes down to a core of people who are willing to stick with it. But I think in that way, though, we informed, through all this outreach, about redress, about what we were trying to do and everybody can participate, and come and join our meetings. And I don' ; t know, we must have met once a month or something. But anyway, we stuck it out for years. And then I think at that point, I think the International Examiner' ; s a little newspaper that was kind of started. And so we would inform the community and the public just generally about what was happening. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s interesting because I feel like something that stands out to me about the Chicago hearings was they included Japanese Latin Americans. Chizu Omori: Oh, yeah- Katherine Nagasawa: So there was... Chizu Omori: ... we didn' ; t have any, I don' ; t recall. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Chizu Omori: I don' ; t remember knowing about that, even, at that time. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. But it' ; s interesting how each hearing highlighted a different community that might not have had a platform. So that' ; s really cool what you did to include the Aleuts. Chizu Omori: I know that in the San Francisco Bay Area, there are Japanese Peruvian descendants, and actually survivors. I know a few in East Bay. Grace... Katherine Nagasawa: Grace Shimizu, right? Chizu Omori: Yeah, Grace Shimizu and other people, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I have some final questions around the legacies of redress and your reflections on the movement. How did you feel when the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 was actually passed? Do you remember where you were and how you reacted? Chizu Omori: At the particular moment? I don' ; t remember, but I must have been really startled and [laughs]. Oh, I know. No, no. There was a convention of JACL going on in Seattle when Reagan signed the bill. So some people from the convention jumped on an airplane and were there in time to witness the signing. So I guess that was the moment when he signed it. Yeah, oh yeah. Well, that was pretty exciting, yeah. And then they promptly got back on the plane, back to the convention, and talked about it. And I was there, like I say, I never did join the JACL, but I wanted to go see Mike Masaoka in action because I had never had anything to do with him. But it' ; s sort of like, what is he like in person? And so that' ; s why I was hanging around on the fringes of that convention because it was in Seattle and I was living there. But anyway, so that' ; s why I was there when I heard that the bill was signed and all that, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: So you were with the big... The whole community had come to Seattle, basically, a lot of leaders, right when that was passed. Chizu Omori: Yeah. And so of course, the community, our community celebrated and we had a big party and everything. And of course, Mike Lowry was still around, so we honored him for being the first to support us. Katherine Nagasawa: Were your parents alive to receive redress? Chizu Omori: Yes. Well, my father. My mother died very early. She died in 1947, so she wasn' ; t around. But yeah, my father did get redress and his second wife, too. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember how your father reacted when he received the apology letter and when he got the check? Chizu Omori: Well, I wasn' ; t around to witness it or anything, but they were quietly satisfied, I could tell. They wouldn' ; t say very much, but they were pleased. They were pleased. And they knew that I had been working on it for a long time. So I think they felt like that my work was vindicated because it came through with something. Katherine Nagasawa: And how about for you and your sibling, for you and your sister? You personally also received the check and the letter. What was it like for you to go through that experience, as a survivor? Chizu Omori: Well, I just felt like $20,000 was a token amount, because after all, being part of the lawsuit and knowing how much that would' ; ve paid off, this just seemed like peanuts or something. But I felt, " ; Okay, it' ; s the symbolic meaning of this." ; That we had done something that had never been done before, achieved suing -- well, we weren' ; t suing, the lawsuit was, but in Congress, at least they recognized that they had done this thing, and at least this will put a brake on anything that Congress might decide to do in the future. That, " ; Well, maybe we shouldn' ; t do this, because it might cost us in the long run," ; sort of thing. As a kind of a warning to others. But of course, one of the reasons why many in Congress did not want to support redress is that it would be opening the door to allow all the other wronged peoples to sue. So it didn' ; t happen immediately, but John Conyers introduced HR40 or something like it, I think, a month after our redress had passed. So that was in 1988, and then nothing happened to that until fairly recently. I think he kept introducing it over and over. But yeah, I' ; d like to see more action on reparations for Black citizens, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you feel like were the limitations of the Civil Liberties Act in true repair or true healing? You mentioned monetarily, it was a drop in the bucket. Where else do you feel like the redress movement fell short of what would' ; ve been a more full healing process and repair process? Chizu Omori: What more? Well. You know, part of the legislation was for educational purposes, and they allocated, they named $50 million for educational purposes. And I haven' ; t followed all this very closely, but they actually appropriated only $5 million of that $50 million, which became that Civil Liberties Educational Program that they had. And I got a letter of congratulations from Senator Patty Murray in Washington State, because we won redress. And I answered her and I said, " ; Thank you for noticing this," ; or whatever. " ; Thanks for your letter." ; And I said, " ; But I do wish that you people make sure that that $45 million for education is appropriated because that' ; s what you said you would do, $50 million." ; Of course, I didn' ; t get a response from her over that. But anyway, I thought I' ; d prod them while I could. But later on, because they have these confinement sites grants and all that, I think that' ; s all part of the fact that they said that they would have an educational fund. And so I guess that' ; s all part of it. They don' ; t say so, I don' ; t know, but maybe they do, I don' ; t know. But anyway. Katherine Nagasawa: I think it' ; s still a legacy of redress. Chizu Omori: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: And this project is actually funded through the JACS grant. Chizu Omori: There you go. Katherine Nagasawa: So it' ; s kind of funny that a project around redress is, in part, funded through the movement itself. But its interesting legacy is the educational projects and community education work. Chizu Omori: Yeah. We got money from that grant. I mean that we got grants, my sister got a grant to finish our film, Rabbit, and I got a grant to write a biography of somebody who was... She wanted it done, but after second thoughts, she decided she didn' ; t want it done, and she harassed us something awful. So I had to give it up. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh no, I' ; m sorry about that. I did want to talk a little bit about your film, Rabbit in the Moon. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: How do you feel like the redress movement influenced or shaped your own activism or work around storytelling around Japanese American history? Chizu Omori: A lot because I didn' ; t pay attention to that whole incarceration experience for a long time. First of all, I was really happy that we didn' ; t go to Japan, so I didn' ; t care about anything else. We didn' ; t go to Japan, so I was just glad. And then you just start going to school and picking up life, which was pretty non-eventful in the sense that I never felt any hostility directed towards me or anything like that. Other people did. They had a hard time readjusting because they got hostility back from the community that they moved into. But I didn' ; t. A lot of urban kids, I think they just went back into high school and all resumed their lives, more or less. And after all, we' ; d just gone through a world war, and think of what had happened to the rest of the world, or even the United States. And so I think all the GIs coming back and everything, everybody was just trying to reestablish their lives. Survival was the main thing, so we didn' ; t have time to think about, " ; Oh, what a terrible thing it was." ; We survived, you know? So anyway, and I' ; d say for the Issei generation it was terrible. But for younger generations who could really start their lives more or less, it wasn' ; t so terrible, all things considered. I mean, we were able to go to school and get going again and all that, but this was true for lots and lots of people coming back from the, the soldiers coming back and everybody starting over or starting again. So we didn' ; t dwell on what had happened to us. It was only later. Katherine Nagasawa: And in part sparked by the redress movement, that it got you thinking about it again. Chizu Omori: Oh, yeah. I guess when I think about why people didn' ; t talk about it, I mean, well, it was very painful and there was nothing they could do about it or anything. And so I think that it was something that was not, I mean, yeah, what could they do about it? Nothing. But with redress, we could do something about it. At least we could talk about it or complain about it and get heard. So yeah, it' ; s only people like Michi Weglyn and I don' ; t know how she got interested in all this. I knew her, but I don' ; t know. I never talked about this kind of thing with her, but I think she was a good friend of Wayne Collins, or maybe she got interested and met Wayne Collins, and then he educated her on all this stuff. I think that he was a major influence on her. Katherine Nagasawa: For Rabbit In The Moon, you had to get a lot of people to share their stories, right? Do you feel like people would' ; ve been as open to doing that, had redress not happened? If the redress movement never happened, the commission hearings never happened, would the documentary have been made? Chizu Omori: Well, I wouldn' ; t have made it, first of all. But I think there were people willing to talk about it if somebody had asked them. I think so. The problem is, the reason why I felt like making the documentary is because even though redress happened, so how many people knew about it? I mean, in terms of the United States? Just us, you know, basically. Because most people... Well, they weren' ; t interested. Most people, I think. And when I talked to reporters during redress, some of them, their jaws would drop and they said, " ; I just can' ; t believe it. I can' ; t believe this happened," ; sort of thing. So you had to overcome a whole lot of resistance to acknowledging and learning about this terrible thing that the government had done. Katherine Nagasawa: It was almost a general public education effort. Chizu Omori: Yeah. And I feel now that younger JA generations, they don' ; t know very much. They' ; re very ignorant about all of this in spite of redress, you know? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, and I feel like for me, it' ; s like we are running out of time to capture direct stories. It just feels very urgent. Chizu Omori: It' ; s now or never. I' ; m a little bit older of the really young generation. Emi is 10 years younger than me, so she has no memories. She was one year old when she went in, so she has no memories of camp. So she could say, " ; I was in camp," ; but she can' ; t tell you anything about it. And I can' ; t tell you too much either, because I was not old enough to understand what was happening. Katherine Nagasawa: And like you said, so much of the Issei experience who were actually adults who could really process it, were totally lost so, yeah. I wanted to end today just by talking about the connections between Japanese American incarceration and the redress movement and some of your activism today around... You went to the Fort Bliss for Tsuru [for Solidarity], you' ; re very involved in Tsuru [for Solidarity]. What do you feel like the ties, or do you feel like there are ties between your activism and the redress movement and what you focus on today with your activism for other communities? Chizu Omori: Well, I don' ; t know that there' ; s any particular ties because I' ; ve always been a political civil rights activist, generally. And with Trump in office, the whole immigration thing, the family separation policy and having to, I mean, kicking everybody back into Mexico, all those policies, Tsuru was organized to address the asylum seeker problems through Satsuki Ina, who actually went with Carl Takei, who was the JACL lawyer to which ones? Did they go to Fort Bliss? But this is way before the stuff had publicity. She went with him. And so she actually got into an immigration station where she talked to some of the mothers and the small children and all that. And she came back and wrote an article about her experience visiting these kids. And it was widely copied in the media here and there and stuff. So she knew that it exists and what' ; s happening to the families and that kind of thing. So when a pilgrimage to Crystal City was organized, she was part of the organizing group. And I wanted to go to see Crystal City because I knew about it, but I' ; d never been there. So I said, " ; Oh, sure, let' ; s go." ; And actually, that' ; s where Japanese Peruvians, those people, went because they were held at Crystal City. So that' ; s where we met a bunch of those people. And it was agreed that as long as we were there, we may as well go to this detention center, the largest in Texas, where families and women and children all were there. Let me see, that was from San Antonio, so what was that one called? Dilley or something like that. Anyway, so our leader, great leader, Mike Ishii, suggested that, why don' ; t we make tsuru, fold tsuru, the kind that are folded for Hiroshima and all that, and why don' ; t we take these? And so through the internet, a call goes out that says " ; We would like people to fold cranes and we will take them to Texas and we will use these to decorate the fences of the detention center or whatever." ; And we got I don' ; t know how many cranes, thousands, maybe 50,000 or I don' ; t know. More than I can remember. And suddenly it became a movement, you know? And there is this kind of genius aspect of it, of having a symbol like the folded crane that people can actually make. We had people in San Quentin prisons send us a box full of cranes and we got some from Japan. Anyway, that it was very eye-catching and very dramatic. So that' ; s why, that' ; s how Tsuru For Solitary was born in this one act that we decided to do down in Texas. And we actually went to the state legislature and gave them cranes and talked to those legislators and all that. And then we went to several churches where people were being given asylum. Small families of asylum seekers were in the churches. So we got to go to some of the churches and meet those people. So in that one trip we just did an awful lot. And it was very exciting. Was it on that trip? Some of us went across the border into Mexico, but I had to do something else. I was responsible for doing something else so I didn' ; t get to go with the rest of them that went across the border. But then they saw people down there, too, on the border. They met people from Africa, for instance. I mean, it' ; s not just South Americans and Central Americans. People from all over are there trying to bust into the United States. So we keep learning things when we do these things. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m curious, do you feel like Japanese Americans, we won our own version of reparations and redress. Do you feel like we have a responsibility to support other communities in those kinds of reparations fights, like H.R.40? Chizu Omori: Oh, I think so. But I' ; m just speaking for myself. Katherine Nagasawa: And why? Could you start that thought with, " ; I believe that..." ; Chizu Omori: Well, when you begin to study the history of the United States, it' ; s just so horrifying that how can you not feel that something, we need to acknowledge it somehow more than we have? So I just feel like we should form coalitions with other groups, other peoples of color, so that we could become a political voice to have a seat at the table and have a say in policy formation and stuff like that. That' ; s what I would like to see. That' ; s going to be hard to do. But I think there' ; s a tendency for Asian Americans not to identify with other people, like Black people and such. But we live here, it' ; s our country. And so it' ; s our history, slavery and all that. Of course, we weren' ; t responsible or anything for it, but we owe it to other members of our communities that were badly affected by policies of our country. So. Besides, if we don' ; t stick up for our rights, they' ; re just going to be taken away from us gradually, even like voting and all those things. I mean, let' ; s face it, there' ; s a very frightened white group that they' ; re frightened of us. And if they had their way, we wouldn' ; t have any power at all. I mean, I don' ; t want to make it an " ; us and them" ; situation, but we have to be realistic that there are people who are worried that they' ; re going to be the minority one in these days. They are. So we should be ready to stick up for our rights, you know. Katherine Nagasawa: And then I guess finally, what do you think that the Japanese American redress movement can teach other communities that are looking for repair or redress? What do you think are the biggest lessons? Chizu Omori: A precedent has been set. That it is possible. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you start by saying, " ; I think the biggest lessons are..." ; Just as a full sentence. Chizu Omori: Well, the biggest lessons are that it is possible even working within the system, you might say, it is possible that some justice can be retrieved from... Retrieved, is that the right word? I don' ; t know. Anyway, that we do have a constitution, and we do have highfalutin' ; notions of " ; all men are born equal" ; and all that kind of stuff. And we should all work towards those to make those real and not just theoretical. And redress, at least it taught me that a determined small group can get heard and get some redress, some recognition, and I think it' ; s good for the soul to feel that you are not totally powerless. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you think for you, redress... What kind of effects did it have on you personally to have the apology and for the legislation to be passed, for your own psyche? Chizu Omori: I kind of was estranged, if that' ; s the right word, from the JA community. I think my experience in camp made me feel like, " ; I don' ; t really like the Japanese American society. It has no place for me. So I' ; m just going to step away from it and kind of meld into white society." ; Which I did for a long time because I married a white man and I was active. Well, Berkeley, you could become...Well in my circles, race didn' ; t really matter so much. It was more like how you felt and what you thought, that kind of thing politically and all that. It just was not until say, civil rights really got rolling in the sixties and such, then I became very aware of Black history and Native American history too. So, gee, what am I getting at here? Was it about redress? What it did for me? Katherine Nagasawa: Oh yeah, for you. Chizu Omori: It brought me back into the Japanese American community. And I felt like after what we had gone through, we should have more sympathy and more empathy for other peoples of color in this country. And the JAs just did not seem to care. At least it looked like that to me. And I now see that they were just so busy reestablishing their lives that they really... And they wanted to keep their heads down. They were not politically active because I think they felt very vulnerable. We were, and we had been, certainly, yeah. But also I grew up in the farms in San Diego County down there, so I had seen the way Mexicans were treated down there. Rather than Blacks it was really the Mexicans that were the lowest on the totem pole and mistreated and exploited and all that sort of thing. So there' ; s that brown community too. We have hardly talked about them, but I was aware of that. So it looked like peoples of color, Black, brown, whatever, Native, red. They used to call him the " ; red man." ; Geez. But that all of us had a lot in common, that it was white supremacy and white attitudes towards peoples of color. Katherine Nagasawa: I think lastly, I just see if there' ; s any questions I didn' ; t ask or anything else you wanted to share -- final reflections before we close up. Chizu Omori: That' ; s okay. You said you... You want to a cough drop? Katherine Nagasawa: [coughs] Any final parting words? Chizu Omori: Oh, I' ; ll take a drink. Katherine Nagasawa: I think we' ; ll be wrapping up in a minute. Chizu Omori: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: I think lastly I just want to see if there' ; s any questions I didn' ; t ask or any thoughts you wanted to share, final reflections before we close out the interview today. So any final parting words or thoughts? Chizu Omori: Well I think that William Hohri and the people who were very active in the NCJAR lawsuit were very courageous and I think what they did was really true to democracy, I' ; ll put it that way. That they were protesting grievances that were committed by the government and they wanted to do it in a way that would connect to the basics in this country and such, and that they cannot get away with violating the systems of the government and the laws and such like that. They can' ; t get away with it. That they had to be held accountable for what they did. Katherine Nagasawa: And they all tied it, right. It was like 22 constitutional violations, right? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sitting with me and sharing. You have an amazing memory also. Chizu Omori: Well- Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m so impressed. Chizu Omori: You know what? You should have gotten me 10 years ago. I' ; d have been a lot better. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OmoriChizu20221110.xml OmoriChizu20221110.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Omori, Chizu (11/10/2022)
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Chizu Omori, a Nisei born in the San Diego area and incarcerated at Poston during World War II, describes becoming politically active at UC Berkeley in the 1950s, participating in the Civil Rights Movement, and supporting the Japanese American Redress Movement in Seattle in the 1970s and '80s. She remembers helping Issei draft written testimonies and delivering her own oral testimony at the Seattle CWRIC hearings. Chizu also shares her experience serving as a plaintiff for the NCJAR class action lawsuit spearheaded by William Hohri, including memories of her 1987 trip to Washington D.C. to attend the Supreme Court hearing. She concludes by describing her involvement with Tsuru for Solidarity and stressing the importance of interracial solidarity.
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2022-11-10
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video
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Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
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One, Keith
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/28/2017 One, Keith (10/28/2017) 0:33:09 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. One, Keith Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/308363255 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/308363255?h=5662cf263d" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 This is an interview with Keith One as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. Your oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition "Then They Came for Me: the Incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII and the Demise of Civil Liberties." Today is October 28th, 2017 at about 3:15 PM. We are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Keith One is being interviewed by Anna Takada for the Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name? Keith One: 00:34 It's Keith One. AT: 00:36 And um, where and when were you born? KO: 00:41 I was born in Chicago, here in Chicago. This was in 1953. AT: 00:46 Okay. Um, and like I mentioned, it would be great if we could talk a little bit about, you know, your- where your family was, um, during the war and then we can get a little bit into your experiences of growing up in Chicago. Um, so briefly, where, your parents, where were they, um, the time of the war and what happened? KO: 01:08 Well, they lived in the Sacramento area. Um, Marysville was, my mother was from there, my father from Sacramento and they were both, um, sent to the Tule Lake Relocation Center. So they started there and then ended up at Amache in Granada, um, toward the end of the war. And, um, so from directly there, they, then they emigrated to Chicago, both of them, but they didn't know each other at the time. So they didn't meet each other until they arrived here in the city. AT: 01:38 And what was the, um, the draw for Chicago for both families? KO: 01:45 Opportunity. I think there was a fear for them to return to California. Obviously you know, very, very bad experience, bad memories and so to, to move east presented perhaps opportunity for jobs, a new life, let's say, away from the bad memories. And then I think that was the impetus for both of them to separately move to Chicago. AT: 02:12 And do you know what, um, both families were doing in California before the war? KO: 02:21 You know, I know my father, um, I think grew up in a very poor household. They were, they were farmers for much of their life. You know so there's a lot of manual labor going on. Um, and he had, um, two brothers and two sisters on top of it, and they all worked in the fields. I think it was the strawberry fields particularly they worked in. And my mother, I think she had a little bit of a better life. She, I think you heard from her, she had five sisters. Um, a very enterprising father. My grandfather who, you know, came to the United States as a young boy and, uh, endeavored to learn English and to work hard and to make a life for himself. Um, and so that's sort of, you know, that's, that was the beginning of both of their s- or the lives, both sides of the family. AT: 03:11 And then, um, so Chicago, then, what were the, their respective families doing once they got here? KO: 03:20 Well, I know that my father's father passed away, um, during the war, so, and I never had a chance to meet him. Um, and his mother stayed in California, she stayed there. Um, so on my mother's side, the entire family moved to Chicago. And I think you heard from my mother that she when, as I was saying, he's a very enterprising, my grandfather's very enterprising, hardworking man, and he had a succession of different businesses that he had. Grocery store was one. Uh, he had, uh, a dry cleaners as well and, um, and was relatively successful despite, you know, all the discrimination. You know, the cards were really, were up against him, right? I mean, they were stacked against him in many ways, but despite that, still succeeded to the point of being able to provide for his family and it's a very large family- six, six daughters and his wife. So, um, yeah, that's basically it for him. And he just, uh, and I, I had the pleasure to get to know him really well because he lived to be a nice long age and you know, and he, he spoke English, which was very, um, unusual for an Issei. And so I got to know him really well and we got to know each other very well. So, you know, of all the grandparents, I think he was certainly the closest for me. AT: 04:48 Um, I'm so, sorry, I'm gonna just correct this one more time [goes to move microphone]. KO: 04:52 Sure. AT: 04:53 And we'll edit this out. Um, yeah, that's one of the beautiful things about having editors [laughs]. KO: 05:01 Yes. AT: 05:02 Um, and, and so your father, what, what did he end up doing once he got to Chicago? KO: 05:12 Oh, he did a variety of different things. He was also a hardworking man, um, but uneducated. And so, you know, he had to take whatever jobs he could take. I know at one point he was selling vacuum cleaners door to door. Did that for a little bit. Uh, and then he finally ended up in a sort of an apprenticeship where he, he decided that he was going to work in the tool and die industry you know, industry that's pretty much died today, but, at least here in America. But he, um, he worked very hard at learning that. He, hooked on with a company owned by this man, and, um, was successful in the business. He rose to the level of general manager in the company. Uh, but since it was a family-owned business, he could go no further. So eventually he left that company and he started his own business. And this is probably about 1971 when he did that. AT: 06:12 And what was the business that he started? KO: 06:14 It was also tool and die. So he used his, his knowledge, um, to start that business and probably took some of his customers from his, uh, previous, um, place of employment and built a small but successful business for himself. AT: 06:31 And then, um, your parents, where did their families or where did they settle in, in Chicago? Which areas? KO: 06:40 You know, generally in the Lincoln Park area, around here, Old, Old Town maybe more specifically, I think. Um, um, I think you heard from my mother, you know, they lived in a variety of places, but around Clark, LaSalle, uh, across from the Moody Bible Institute, um, that's where my mother was. My father was I think farther south of that, maybe more on the west side of Chicago. I remember him saying he lived on Marshfield. So that was a street that he lived on as well. And so, a little bit separated in distance, but, um, you know, the, eventually they were to meet in Chicago. AT: 07:20 And where did they meet? KO: 07:22 I think it was in this fellowship group, um, through a church and it was, I think it was more a social club than anything else, but, um, it was an opportunity to meet other, uh, Japanese Americans who- Nisei specifically that, uh, were in camp as well and had emigrated to Chicago. So I think a lot of people sort of, uh, met their future spouses in that, in that place. AT: 07:51 And when did they get married? KO: 07:54 1950. AT: 07:56 And you were born '53? KO: 07:58 '53, right. AT: 07:59 So, um, where, where were they living at the time that you were born? KO: 08:07 Oh, well, once they got married, um, and this, this is interesting because I don't think she shared this with you, but you know they got married in 1950. They had a very difficult time finding a place to live because it, nobody would rent to Japanese Americans. They didn't want anything to do with them. So what they did is they put an ad in the paper. They said, they said specifically 'Japanese American couple seeking apartment'. And the wonderful thing, there was a lady, a landlord who answered the ad and said, you know, I'm specifically looking for a Japanese American couple. She wanted to rent to a couple that had the camp experience. So, so they able to get an apartment. It was a small apartment, one bedroom apartment. And um, that's eventually, that's where we lived at least for the first five years of my life. AT: 09:06 And where was that apartment? KO: 09:09 Oh, let's see. It was on, um, let me think. Oh, it's on Hudson, which is not too far from here either. AT: 09:17 Do you know any, any more details about why the um, the landlord was interested in having Japanese Americans specifically? KO: 09:28 You know, no, other than she just said when they, she answered the ad and talked to my parents, they, she just said, I think she said something to the effect that, you, 'I feel very badly about what happened to a lot of the Japanese Americans. And I wanted to be able to help by providing a place to live, knowing that it was very difficult for Japanese Americans to find apartments to rent.' So, very compassionate woman, I'm sure. I don't, I don't know her name. I don't know if she's still around, but um, that was really an answer, you know, to their needs. AT: 10:09 And so after the five years on Hudson, where did your family go? KO: 10:15 My father decided that, um, and I think this had to do with the experience of the war, camp and everything else. They wanted to fully embrace American life. They wanted to, um, not that they wanted to distance themselves from their heritage, but, but just that 'we're in America, let's be Americans,' you know. And so they decided that they were going to move out to the suburbs. Now this is 1958, right? And, and so they decided, and specifically my father decided that it'd be great to move out to a suburb called Palatine. 1958 and, um, decided that he was going to build a house. Um, and it just to, the way he kind of wanted it. And so he wanted an all brick house versus, he didn't want to have to paint. So he said, I want all brick house. He, he had a vision for the future and he said, you know, some day, we might own two cars. So he made sure that the house had a two-car garage and this is 1958, right? Very rare. And the neighborhood was all, almost all single-car garages, but he looked ahead and, and it was great. The interesting thing though was that when the house was being built, he wanted to, to see what the progress, how the progress is going, but he was afraid to stand in front of the house and observe, still fearful of retribution, maybe, whatever, prejudice. But, um, so what he would do is he would come by the house, but he would be at a distance, the house, you know, number of houses away from a distance observing the builders, building the house. But he didn't, he didn't dare go close to the house that was being built. So, again, I think that's just a carry over from, you know, all the, the prejudice and everything. Just even their, their experience with, uh, trying to find an apartment, right. You know, thinking well what, you know, with a neighborhood like this will it welcome a Japanese American family? Would they? But yet he wanted the safety of, at the time the suburbs, right. Just, you know, safer than the city. A better place to raise a family, have a yard, um, cleaner air, maybe it's better schools, whatever. So, you know, really, just a visionary in terms of all that so early, you know, to think about all those things. Um, and the house got built and we moved in. Uh, but thankfully they had no issues at all. Neighbors were very welcoming and uh, they were very grateful for that. And I think very lucky because it wasn't, not even a year later, another Japanese American family that wanted to move into the neighborhood did the same thing and building a house, oh, it must be three or four houses down from where they had their house and they would visit the house regularly as it's being built. People noticed that though and apparently there was a petition that was, that was raised to, opposing their move into the neighborhood. So my parents' fears were valid, right. That that could happen. But they're just fortunate enough that their immediate neighborhood was very welcoming and unfortunately this other family, not as welcoming, so. AT: 14:13 How far away was this home from your family? KO: 14:13 Probably five houses away. AT: 14:16 That's so interesting. KO: 14:16 Different street, but five houses away. It's just, it's just who lives around you basically. So, but over time, I mean their immediate neighbors across the street, both sides of their house and everything, they became all good friends. And just this morning, my mother was saying, it was interesting, this is just this morning, she's remembering her neighbor that lived right next door and when we moved in and my brother and I would sit on the on, there was a couple stairs in front of the house just sitting out there just, just looking around and um, quietly and her neighbor saying those, 'look at those cute Japanese boys just, just sitting there. Aren't they cute?' Now maybe we were, but you know a lot of people might not have thought that, right. But her neighbor next door said, was, was just wonder- she says 'this is great. I just love having you next door.' So very, very fortunate they had neighbors like that. AT: 15:15 And um, so was most of your upbringing in Palantine then? KO: 15:20 Oh yeah. Yep. Went through grade school, junior high and high school. So yeah, I lived there entire-and my mother still lives in the same house today. AT: 15:34 And you have two younger brothers? Um... KO: 15:37 Yes. AT: 15:39 And what years were they born? KO: 15:42 Well, uh, Darrell was '55 and then Jeff who's here also with me in '59. AT: 15:51 And, um, can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like growing up in, in Palatine? KO: 16:00 Well, um, I said our, our neighbors were welcoming, you know, I think when we went to school, um, it was a little bit different, right? Palatine at the time was just all Caucasian. There were no, no minorities. There are no African Americans, no Asian Americans. I was the only one, basically. Kindergarten was pretty, there wasn't much issue. I think when you're five years old, kids don't know the difference really. Um, but in first grade I had a different experience. And um, this is kind of interesting because, you know how you do the school pictures, you take school pictures, you get all dressed up, take the school picture, and then you wait for it to come. And then you bring it home from school and you give it to your parents, right. And it's got, you have the big picture and it's got all the little ones, all just in there. Anyway, um, my mom pulls out that picture of me in the first grade and I did not have a smile on my face. It was more of a frown. And she goes, 'oh, what's,' she says, 'what's wrong? How come you look so unhappy? Why do you look so unhappy?' And I said, 'well, oh, what, you know, I don't, I don't like this.' And she said, 'well, what is it that you don't like?' And I said, 'well, I don't like my face.' And my mom said, 'well, why don't you like your face? You know, you have a cute face.' And I said, 'it's different.' And that was what, that was in first grade, probably my first, you know, realization that I was different. I mean, at least physically different because kids told me I was. AT: 17:52 Even at that young age. KO: 17:54 Oh yeah. AT: 17:55 First grade. KO: 17:55 Yeah, yeah. So I remember in grade school and the early years, there was always a few kids that would make fun. You know, they'd say, you know, call me a Chinaman or they, um, or they would, you know, do things with their eyes, you know, and they go, you know, you go, Oh, you know, [slants eyes with fingers] 'Chinese, Japanese', and they'd say American knees [points to knees]. I mean, jokes like that. So, you know, so I felt that, you know, that discrimination, certainly not pervasive, really wasn't pervasive, but there was always a few kids that were like that, you know, and at least early on, but I'd say after like three, four or five years maybe, because we became part of the community, part school, and I participated in sports and got involved in things, that all that eventually just went away, you know, and then, and eventually other minorities started to move in. Some they had that one family I mentioned to you that were discriminated against. Um, there were a couple other Asian families that moved in when I was in high school, that kind of thing. American, uh, African American family too. So it became a little bit more diverse, not as diverse as it is today, but back then it was pretty, you know, getting pretty, uh, a little bit more diverse than it used to be. So that all that kind of went away. But when I grew up, I always felt, since I grew up with mostly Caucasians, I just felt like a Caucasian too. I mean, I just, all I saw were Caucasian faces around me and not really looking at my own. And so that's, that's how we grew up, my brothers and I. AT: 19:43 And what about at home? Um, at home, did you, um, in what ways were you, you know, maybe connected to Japanese heritage if, if at all? KO: 19:59 Well, that's the thing. I think, as I mentioned earlier, I think the effort, my parents effort was, let's become, let's embrace becoming Americans. And when we would eat meals at home, my mother would cook every day. We'd have the normal spa-, we'd have spaghetti, we'd have meatloaf, we, you know, we have chicken, all that kind of stuff. But the, but one constant we always had though was rice. So no matter what the meal was, there was always rice. And I think it was because my father, he would always want rice no matter what it was. And, um, I remember one day she served something, which I forgot what it was that didn't demand rice at all. And he just said, hey, where's the rice? You know what I mean? He just, it was just expected to have it every day, no matter what the meal was. So, um, so I remember that. But other than that, you know, everything was American to the 'T' in terms of, you know, how we lived, the clothes we wore, the food we ate, everything else. But there was still, I mean, we had extended family and we'd get together for holidays. New Year's was, was especially popular time where we could eat Japanese food. Um, so we kind of stayed in touch with the, with the Japanese side, but most of the year we just lived as regular Americans. AT: 21:22 Did you ever come into the city at all, in Chicago? When you were living and growing up in Palatine? KO: 21:28 We still had some family members that lived, extended family members that still live in the city, so we would come in for that. You know, my grandparents still lived here, some aunts and uncles, some cousins did. And so we would do that. But in, in many ways though, I think we, moving away. I think that changed that dynamic quite a bit because then you, you did lose a little bit of that, um, heritage, that connection, culture a little bit. Um, 'cause I know some people that, that stayed in the city, some were Sansei, that I think were much more connected to their heritage than, than we were. AT: 22:10 Um, and so the times that you would come into the city, um, were you aware or did you recognize like a Japanese- something of a Japanese American community here? Or is businesses or restaur- you know? KO: 22:29 A little bit. I mean it was mostly the North Side here, Lincoln Park area, I think, um, Lakeview. I think we saw some- where there were some Japanese businesses still around. Um, but you know, we saw that decline over time. It just, it just decreased and I think people end up scattering and that, that cohesive community that sort of used to be there, you know, just kind of started to, dissolving quite a bit. So I mean, to the point right now where, I don't know, you know it it's, you know, how strong or how big a community that that truly is today. AT: 23:09 Have you visited, um, Japanese American communities or like Little Tokyos or Japantowns on the west coast? KO: 23:17 Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Because I, I enjoy Japanese food. So, um, yeah, Japantown, both in San Francisco and LA. I've been there and I had an aunt that lived in Japantown, one of my mother's sisters still lives in San Francisco. And so we'd go there, we were there last year, my wife and I, and we strolled around J-town and ate some ramen, and did, you know, did some things like that. Went shopping at the Daiso store, things like that. So, yeah, we, we still, um, yeah, yeah. AT: 23:56 What has that felt like for you? Go- visiting those, um, those types of ares or communities? KO: 24:05 Oh, yeah, it seems familiar to me, right? I mean, it doesn't feel like it's a distant thing at all. Um, but it's not an everyday thing that I, that I experience. One thing that we've always wanted to do was travel to Japan because- never been there. And so we have the opportunity next month to go, my wife and I and my brother and his wife, Oh, we're going, we're going to go, it's a tour, but we're gonna go for two and a half weeks. We just have to go. It's, it's our heritage. It's our, um, it's the homeland in many ways. So we'll see. We'll see how that, how that goes going there. Not speaking the language is gonna be, makes it a little harder. And I, I wish my parents would have taught us Japanese growing up- it would've been so easy for us to, um, to learn as young children. But again, I think it's, they wanted to be, embrace becoming Americans. So they didn't focus on that. They didn't focus on teaching us Japanese. They didn't tell us about their experience in camp. I think that was, stays in with the theme of, you know, let's just become Americans. So I think they were successful. AT: 25:28 Do you have any, uh, expectations or feelings about this upcoming trip? Having never been? KO: 25:37 Um, I, I think I'll find it, um, even not having been there, I think I'll still find it familiar in many ways. Because, you know, even growing up, I mean, I, I've heard Japanese words all my life, individual words that we call things. Um, I understand to a degree the culture of politeness, being reserved, um, being clean, being neat. I mean, all those things are still things that I learned from my parents, right? That's probably very Japanese, um, and I, I expect that, I'll see all that also in Japan as well. So I think it'll be familiar, but also very different experience. AT: 26:26 Now you have, um, just a few more questions as we wrap up. Um, I'm wondering if you could, um, like in a few words, uh, describe the, um, the Japanese American experience or community in the Midwest. How might it be unique or...? KO: 26:58 Compared to what, West Coast for instance? AT: 27:01 For instance, or. New Speaker: 27:01 Well, I, I have a friend on the west coast that, um, we ended up working up working for the same company. He's also Sansei, but I, I, I saw his experience much different than mine. I mean, because again, I, I think he was more connected to the culture, a, greater, uh, Japanese population on the west coast surrounded more that, not just family, but just the community and everything else. I think coming out, coming to Chicago where that was much smaller and then eventually moving out to Palatine, which there was none at all. There was a stark difference there in terms of that. So, um, in some ways I wished I was still, and experienced that community, but I can also appreciate the, my parents' desire to embrace, you know, just being an American, living the American life and everything else and learned a lot about that as well. So they're different. I don't know if it's better or worse. Some ways it was better and maybe some ways is worse, but definitely different. AT: 28:18 And are there any ways that you've seen um, uh, some of the impacts of either the incarceration or resettlement to Chicago? Have um, like those legacies playing out in your own life or experiences? KO: 28:38 Not so much because as you heard my mother say, she didn't talk about it that much. So we didn't, I don't think we understand or realize the full impact of, you know, being pulled away from your home and your, and you know, where you grew up, your business in the case of my grandfather. And, and in one week's time just be sent off somewhere. Um, and then all the prejudice and retribution that came even afterwards as we talked about the difficulty of getting an apartment to rent, things like that. You know, that's many years of hardship in many ways that I can't fully understand. One because they didn't talk about it. But secondly, it's just, um, unless you live it, I don't know how you'd really fully understand it. An exhibit like this certainly helps. And we've seen other exhibits too. But again, it's, it's all- you're seeing our pictures and words, but to live it, that's gotta be totally different. AT: 29:44 And at what point in your life did you start, um, 'cause it seems like you've investigated a little bit, what happened with your family? At what age um, did you start looking into that and what inspired that search? KO: 30:01 I'd probably say it was even after college because again, I mean it wasn't really spoken of and um, I, I think it's just, um, yeah, just relating with my grandfather for instance, and in his last days, certainly. Um, and the interesting thing, he had recorded some, some things, uh, of his life also, not on film but, but just of uh, audio recording that I've had a chance to listen to a little bit and also gave me a perspective. And it also peaked interest in terms of, well, what, what did they really go through? So, and I remember asking my mother a lot of questions about that too. But again, I think there's a reluctance to share that or maybe it's so painful that it's just wanting to block it out a little bit or not relive it. Maybe that's, that's the reason. So I don't think I could fully understand, but certainly coming to the exhibit, we're trying to at least better and bringing my sons here, you know, Yonsei, we want them to also understand that as well. AT: 31:16 Last question. Um, what, what hopes do you have, um, for your children and maybe grandchildren or what kind of, if you could pass down some kind of legacy or, or message to them, what, what do you really want them to have or to understand? KO: 31:39 I think I want them, I want them to have some pride in their heritage. It continues to get diluted, obviously as, um, you know, we have, um, you know, interracial marriages, children, 'hapas', that, um, um, would seem to maybe dilute that, but it, but, but it doesn't mean that you can't know that that's still part of your heritage, right. And, um, you know, understand what the Japanese Americans have gone through. And that that's a legacy that has helped them, right? The reason why they're here, the reason why every successive generation has worked hard, to provide opportunity, right? And so it's, it's great to see them succeed. I also want them to be reminded that that success is built on previous generations, hard work, that they could have this opportunity today. And I think my, my sons understand that certainly, I mean, they're both being very successful in their own right, but they know that it's come down from previous generations. So if they can just know that, embrace that, and hopefully for my grandkids and future generations, I hope that that will still carry on that way. AT: 33:03 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. KO: 33:06 Sure. You're welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OneKeith20171028.xml OneKeith20171028.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Takada, Anna
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One, Satsuki
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/28/2017 One, Satsuki (10/28/2017) 0:21:21 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. One, Satsuki Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/302148640 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/302148640?h=5984cb4f59" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 This is an interview with Satsuki Mei One as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition, "Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II, and the Demise of Civil Liberties". Today is October 28th. Um, and we are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Uh, Mrs. One is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name please? Satsuki One: 00:36 See, see now I didn't hear clearly. AT: 00:37 Your, your full name. SO: 00:39 My full name. Okay. Satsuki Hayashi Mei- I just added that on because people had a hard time saying Satsuki- Mei One. AT: 00:52 And uh, where and when were you born? SO: 00:55 Where am I what? AT: 00:57 Where and when were you born? SO: 00:58 Oh, when was I born? My birthday? Okay. My birthday: May 2nd, 1928. AT: 01:08 And where were you born? SO: 01:10 In Marysville, California. AT: 01:12 Marysville. SO: 01:13 Mhm. AT: 01:13 Can you, can you tell me about Marysville? What kind of town is that? SO: 01:18 It was a little town, little, very little town. If it weren't for the war, I would've married a farmer or something, you know, I would have stayed there, never would have left there. AT: 01:28 And, and what was it that your family did there? SO: 01:31 My father had a grocery store, so. AT: 01:34 And, um, your parents, did they, did they come from Japan? SO: 01:40 Oh yes, oh yes. And uh, they settled in California, you know. AT: 01:46 Where, where were they from? SO: 01:49 From? Well, every time when somebody asks me that I got, I gotta think about it. But, um, uh, you're talking about the area or are you talking about the town or something? AT: 02:04 Just the area, if you know. SO: 02:06 Well, I would say near Kobe, in the country area. Yeah, they were all from the country. AT: 02:18 And do you have any siblings? SO: 02:20 Oh yes. AT: 02:21 How many? SO: 02:23 Well, there's six of us. One, my sis- one of my sisters passed on a few years ago, so there's five of us here. AT: 02:32 And all, all sisters or? SO: 02:35 All girls. AT: 02:36 Oh wow. Where were you in the birth order? SO: 02:39 I was uh, third. Third one. AT: 02:41 So, in the middle. And, um, so growing up in, in Marysville, what, did you go to school or what was kind of like an average day? SO: 02:55 Yeah, average. Yeah uh, grammar school, you know, that kind of thing. And then I graduated grammar school when the war started, so we ended up in the camp. Yeah. So. AT: 03:09 And did you do any other activities outside of school? SO: 03:13 No. You mean in camp? AT: 03:15 No, before the war. SO: 03:18 No, no no, I was too young. AT: 03:26 And um, so the, you were about to enter high school when the war broke out? SO: 03:30 Right. AT: 03:30 And so- SO: 03:31 So freshman year I started in, in camp. AT: 03:34 Okay. And do you, do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked? SO: 03:40 Day that what? AT: 03:41 That Pearl Harbor was attacked? SO: 03:43 Oh yeah, December. AT: 03:49 Do you remember the day though? Like when it happened, what you were doing, what you were doing or does that day stick out to you? SO: 03:59 I didn't hear that. AT: 04:01 Do you remember what you were doing that day? SO: 04:04 Oh, no, no, no, not at all. I was too young, I think. AT: 04:08 Um, and then what about when the evacuation orders went out? SO: 04:15 Evacuation date, you want? AT: 04:18 When, when you found out that your family had to- SO: 04:22 Yeah, what about it? AT: 04:22 Do you remember finding out that what was going to happen? SO: 04:26 Well, my father told me all about it and of course that that thing was pasted all over town, you know. Oh, it was a terrible day. AT: 04:36 And, um, so can you, can you tell me a little bit about what happened, um, with your family, where you had to go or what happened when the war broke out? SO: 04:53 Well, like I say, I was young yet, but then so many of us, um, it was hard to believe that we had to leave our life actually, you know, and um told to go to a camp way up north and we didn't know how long we were going to be there or anything. But my parents were hoping that it would be a short visit, you know, but my father packed a lot of things and pack, made special boxes and he even made a, uh, nice firm box for my mother's sewing machine and she packed it all up and we had a family knit number, 39337. He had written all over the boxes and everything. So, you know, we're told just to bring the things that we can ca- carry. But we brought a lot. You had to bring your linens, you know, for bed and all that kind of thing. So we had to pack, but we weren't refused, you know, once we did it, and we were told just to bring your personal things. That's all. We couldn't have survived if we did that [laughs]. AT: 06:06 And so given that, given your age at the time, did you understand what was happening or? SO: 06:16 Well, I don't know, as much as a 14-year-old can understand, but it was hard to believe to, to leave my town and the life that we lead, as simple as it was. It still was hard to believe that I was leaving yet I had to leave it. But you know, you're a family and you'll have to go together, so you don't think further than that, you know. But, uh, we were called, we had to go. AT: 06:45 And were there any other Japanese American families from your hometown? SO: 06:49 Oh yes. Yes. Very many. Quite a few. AT: 06:53 So did you, you knew some- did you know any of the people that also had to leave? SO: 06:58 Did I what? AT: 06:58 Did you know anyone else that was being evacuated? SO: 07:04 What do you mean anyone else? I had a lot of friends if that's what you mean. Yeah. We knew each other. It was a smaller group than when you think about it, you know. Yeah. We knew each other. AT: 07:16 And, uh, where was your family sent to first? SO: 07:20 Straight to Tule Lake. AT: 07:24 And how did you get there? SO: 07:26 By train. Yeah, it was, um, old trains, you know, and the shades were drawn down. We couldn't see through and uh well, a slow train too, you know, to go up to north. And uh, so from there, after a couple years, we were sent to Colorado, which is Granada. AT: 07:54 And so when you, when you left for camp, it must- or for Tule Lake, um, was that in '42? SO: 08:03 Mm, I think it was '42. Yeah. AT: 08:11 And do you remember, um, like arriving to Tule Lake, what it was like? SO: 08:17 Arriving? Not particularly. It was so, I never saw so many Japanese at once, you know? We, we didn't know there were that many, that Japanese, but, uh, well more when went into camp at Tule Lake, was full of Japanese, so we got to know other people, friends that we would never have met, you know. But, um, yeah, that was fun for me because I was young yet, had fun, you know, playing around and that kind of thing. But we made, made fun for ourselves, you know? AT: 08:57 Do you remember what you would do for, for fun? Because especially when you got there, you, school was out, so you probably weren't going to class yet. SO: 09:08 Not, not right away, but yeah. But, uh, we had to go register and all that because I was freshmen see, so I had to lines, you know, to get the classes listed uh, for me. And so it was a, I think it was like a little adventure because something that I wouldn't have if, if I wasn't going to high school, you know? AT: 09:32 And your sisters, um, were they all in school as well, or school age? SO: 09:37 Mhm, yeah, mhm. AT: 09:38 Um, how old was your oldest sister? SO: 09:42 My oldest sister, she, she was, uh, let's see, how old was she? You know, I don't know how old she was, but she was the oldest. I don't know exactly, so I don't want to say it. Um, then there was another sister in between, but she was sent to Japan years before to get education in Japan. So we didn't see her for about 10 years. AT: 10:07 Was she the only one? SO: 10:11 Yeah, mhm. AT: 10:11 And, um, with your family, did you speak Japanese? SO: 10:15 Yes, but among us, you know, sisters, of course we didn't, but. AT: 10:20 With your parents? SO: 10:23 Mhm, and I went to Japanese school too, so. AT: 10:26 Um, in California? SO: 10:31 In it, yeah, mhm. AT: 10:31 And then, um, so do you know how long you were at Tule Lake before going to Amache? SO: 10:39 It was a couple years. AT: 10:42 And um, how was Amache different than Tule Lake? SO: 10:48 Well it just...was a smaller camp than Tule Lake, certainly. It was a little more civilized, a little bit more. But, uh, I think it was more comfortable. And then of course the high school was better 'cause they had a high school building. Tule Lake was brand new, so we went into the barracks for, for our classes. Then when we went to Amache, we had the high school and I, you know, everything was there and, and what a high school would have, you know. And uh, so it was more like natural, should be like that. So that was fine. And then I didn't, uh, I went through let's see, um, sophomore and junior and then we came to Chicago and I finished my last year here. AT: 11:43 And um, so how did that work that your, your family came to Chicago? Was, was that through your dad or, did you have any relatives? SO: 11:53 Yes, my father said, uh, well we're, we're in Colorado now and it's not, I mean, we were halfway through the country practically. So I want to go see Chicago. I don't want to go back to California right now. So let's go to Chicago. And so my mother and father went, came here and just looked around and see how it was possible that we could live. And then he, being a businessman, he bought a grocery store. There was a grocery store where the man was selling it. So he took it, it was a small one. And so he, he'd rather do his own than work for somebody. So that's what happened. AT: 12:39 And where, where was that first grocery store? SO: 12:42 853 North Clark, [laughs] Clark Street. AT: 12:48 What was the grocery store called? SO: 12:49 I don't know. I don't remember. It might have just said 'grocery' maybe that's all. I don't remember. AT: 12:57 Was it Japanese American-owned or was it someone else? SO: 13:00 No, well, no, they paid rent for the place, but then it was my father's grocery store and it was small. It wasn't very big. I even worked in there. Sliced meat and passed out the, the butter that we would have to get, you know, with coupons, you know, you had to cut out, pound one, and cut it into fours, you know, pack it up and all that. So I went through all that part. AT: 13:27 And so the, this was your family came to the North Side, um, where exactly did you, your family settle? SO: 13:36 Yes. That, in that North Side section, yeah. AT: 13:38 Um, which neighborhood or or streets? SO: 13:42 Well, it's Clark. Um, we later moved just to, uh, just to room our sis- my sisters and I, we didn't want to stay there and live right by the grocery store. So we went to LaSalle Street and we rented a place there just to sleep. It was tough time those days. There were so many of us, you know, and my father didn't have a place to, for us to stay, so it was, it wasn't very comfortable. AT: 14:20 Um, was, do you know, was it difficult? Was there housing discrimination or, or what was, what was the big challenge in finding a place to stay? SO: 14:32 Well, I guess, I guess, well, he didn't, he couldn't afford uh, moving in a place or apartment or something. And I don't know if they would've given him anything. At that time, there was still disc- like uh, in Chicago, there was some discrimination, but, um, we just stayed in that place and then I decided to work as a schoolgirl and, um, I worked, I went to school from the family that I worked for, for them. And um, for a little while I did, but it was a little uncomfortable, yeah. So I came back to them. My mother and father were behind the store actually, and we said, 'Oh, we can't do this. This is bad'. So we found a place that, in Rockford that I had to go and I took a job as a school girl there and I ended up with a family that wasn't, that wasn't very nice to me. So that was tough. I had many crying nights, crying days. Um... AT: 15:44 How long were you there in Rockford? SO: 15:47 When I was there, what did? AT: 15:48 How long? SO: 15:49 How long? Very short, actually, because I had signed up for my last year of high school and, uh, then the family decided they'd like to move to Arkansas and I said, 'Oh no, I'm not gonna move, I'm staying here. My family is here'. So, um, that was it. And then I talked to my mother and she says, you come back here and I'm gonna stay there. So that was it. And, uh, we, uh, stayed there and I went back to doing schoolgirl and I finished my uh, senior year. AT: 16:29 And where, where did you go to high school for your last year? SO: 16:34 Lakeview High School. AT: 16:36 And, um, so were you commuting from the family's home to, to school? SO: 16:43 No, the uh, well I was doing some school work, school group, schoolgirl work. That's all. So from there I went. AT: 16:56 Do you remember your, your first impressions of Chicago when you first came? SO: 17:00 No, I don't. It was big. That's all I knew. Big, yeah. The train came in and big station and said gee, where are we? You know, big city. Yeah, it was a quite, quite a surprise to see such a big city. We didn't see anything like that. We came from a small town, went into camp and when then you know, so it was first time we saw a big city. AT: 17:34 And then, um, I'd love if you could tell me a little bit more about your dad's grocery store and we can wrap it up soon. But, um, what kind of, so he bought the business on Clark Street. Do you know where, um, on Clark that was near, like which intersection? SO: 17:56 Do you know the Newberry Library, over there? It's about a block away. It's um, people know that. Um, that's how close we were to the Newberry Library and Chicago Avenue was on the other side, so. AT: 18:12 Oh, okay, so is this by Clark and Division? SO: 18:14 It was close to the Moody Bible Institute was on the, yeah. So that's where we were. AT: 18:21 Um, were there any other Japanese American businesses around that area? SO: 18:25 Oh yes. There were a lot of Japanese stores. They sold Japanese goods. AT: 18:31 Like food, or? SO: 18:35 Yeah, canned goods. And you know, I'm, I'm sure they must have had something like what we did too. We had a lunch meat and uh, the Moody Bible Institute students used to come in the evening and they'd have a few, few pennies and these, they'd want to spend it for something and they'd buy a bottle of pop or something with a, uh, one of those little cakes, you know, they, I mean, it was sad to see grown up people, you know, counting their pennies and coming just to our little store to buy that and go home, you know. But, uh, yeah, they, they were very nice people of course. AT: 19:17 And did you, um, did you make friends when you arrived to Chicago? SO: 19:21 When...in high school. Just high school, not neighborhood, you know. AT: 19:28 Were you a part of any social clubs, or? SO: 19:31 No, no. Well, I did go to, um, I went to a, um, fellowship group through church and I met some people there. Yes. AT: 19:43 Which church was that? SO: 19:45 Uh, let's see, the St. Paul Fellowship, St. Paul Church. But I don't know if those, this fellowship was St. Paul Fellowship Church. So, that's how I met some of my friends. They were Japanese. So of course just like us, you know. AT: 20:03 Other folks that were in camp, or? SO: 20:06 They, they left camp and moved, yeah. Different camps. So, they were brand new people that I met there. AT: 20:16 And when you started having children, did you share with them about your experiences in camp? SO: 20:23 Well, you know, I, I don't really remember that much. We didn't, you know, we tried not to talk about it too much. So, um, I think that was why I didn't share a lot of things with them. They ask me now, well, why didn't you teach us all these things, you know, but we tried not to. When you're going through the war and being discriminated, you know, we kind of were careful. So, so I, we didn't do too much. So that's what I tell them. I couldn't tell them, talk about it a lot of times. AT: 21:00 Um, well thank you so much for, for sharing it with me. SO: 21:06 Alright. AT: 21:07 Um, is there anything else that you'd want to add or that maybe I missed? SO: 21:11 No, I don't think so, I told you enough [laughs]. AT: 21:14 Well, thank you again. I really appreciate it. I'm sure your family does too. SO: 21:19 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OneSatsuki20171028.xml OneSatsuki20171028.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OneSatsuki20171028.xml
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Title
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One, Satsuki (10/28/2017)
Date
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2017-10-28
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Oya, Merry
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OyaMerry20181005.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Great Northern Railway
Whitefish, MT
Seattle, WA
Gresham, OR
Portland Assembly Center
Stables
Tule Lake
Dust
Housing Conditions
Employment
Chicago Resettlers Committee
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/5/2018 Oya, Merry (10/5/2018) 1:51:03 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Great Northern Railway Whitefish, MT Seattle, WA Gresham, OR Portland Assembly Center Stables Tule Lake Dust Housing Conditions Employment Chicago Resettlers Committee Oya, Merry Takada, Anna video 1:|12(5)|29(5)|44(9)|60(3)|76(15)|84(1)|96(9)|111(10)|122(19)|142(3)|162(13)|176(10)|190(5)|204(11)|221(5)|238(3)|250(13)|269(8)|277(19)|290(9)|304(14)|323(10)|335(4)|352(15)|372(4)|385(9)|398(3)|414(8)|426(5)|440(9)|451(7)|461(3)|469(3)|485(11)|497(3)|507(1)|520(2)|532(4)|536(2)|551(13)|564(3)|572(14)|581(11)|598(8)|608(6)|622(9)|634(13)|651(1)|663(3)|675(12)|684(13)|697(16)|713(2)|727(13)|749(5)|763(10)|771(2)|781(3)|796(8)|810(8)|821(6)|832(13)|846(7)|858(2)|870(3)|887(8)|896(3)|915(6)|929(14)|944(3)|953(7)|964(7)|973(11)|991(8)|1002(1)|1027(2)|1039(5)|1047(16)|1062(16)|1074(6)|1088(12)|1103(13)|1119(16)|1137(8)|1161(3)|1188(3)|1206(2)|1218(4)|1232(8)|1244(5)|1258(4)|1274(4)|1295(14)|1303(10)|1323(1)|1338(3)|1356(3)|1377(13)|1390(9)|1406(3)|1418(8)|1427(6)|1442(5)|1454(14)|1465(8)|1475(4)|1482(8)|1492(6)|1502(2)|1516(13) 0 https://vimeo.com/601368732/84264f8aef Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601368732?h=84264f8aef" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Merry Oya, a nisei born in Montana in 1924, spent her early childhood in the railroad town of Whitefish before moving to Seattle, WA and later to Portland, OR. She shares memories from her childhood, including the early death of her father and the many jobs her mother pursued in order to provide for her three children. She also recounts the experiences of forced removal first to the Portland Assembly Center, then Tule Lake, and finally Minidoka. With encouragement from friends who had already resettled in Chicago, Merry's mother moved the family from Minidoka to Chicago as quickly as possible, settling initially on the South Side. Merry describes the challenges of cramped housing conditions and discrimination, but also assistance assistance received from the Chicago Resettlers Committee and her mother's success as a seamstress in the Chicago garment industry.The family eventually moved to Chicago's North Side, first near Wrigley Field and later in the Ravenswood neighborhood. Particularly notable are her memories of helping her mother, an issei with limited English abilities, learn to navigate the public transit system in their new city, and her memories of kind neighbors who stored the family's furniture during the war. At the end of the interview, Merry expresses her desire for young people to remember the history of incarceration but also to learn about the contributions Japanese Americans have made to the city of Chicago. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Merry Oya as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History project. The interview is being conducted on October 5th, 2018 at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Merry Oya is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you just state your full name? Merry Oya: Merry. Well, I' ; m just going to use my initial Merry Y. Oya. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? Merry Oya: I was born, Troy, Montana, March 29th, 1924. Anna Takada: And, the... kind of the way that these conversations will go is we like to hear a little bit of background about your family and then hear about what happened to your family during the war, where you all went, and then like I mentioned, resettlement in Chicago. So to start, can you tell me a little bit about your, your parents, what their names were and where they were from? Merry Oya: My father and mother, were, they' ; re from Japan. Do you want to know the location? Anna Takada: That' ; d be great! Merry Oya: From the Wakayama district area. Anna Takada: Both of them? Merry Oya: Both of them. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And what, what were their names? Merry Oya: My father' ; s name is Tomekichi Oya, and my mother' ; s name is Riki Oya, but she used to be, before she was married, her maiden name was Riki Ueyama. Anna Takada: And how did they end up in Montana? Or, or I guess, can you tell me about when and why they came to the US? Merry Oya: Well, my, my father came first. He wasn' ; t married at the time. My father came first because as, as did so many other Japanese men, but, he had an opportunity to work on the railroads. And I think many of the Japanese men who came worked on the railroads. Anna Takada: Do you know what year or around what time that was? Merry Oya: No, I don' ; t. I mean, if I' ; d known you were going to ask me those-- I do have some data at home, but I don' ; t think I can give you the dates. Anna Takada: That' ; s not a problem. It' ; s a very specific question. So do y--, like as far as ballpark, was that early 1900s or? Merry Oya: Oh, oh yes. Yeah, I think it was in the probably 1800s? Yeah I think so, because my, my father came first, worked, and then he went back to Japan and then he, I don' ; t know if, I don' ; t know if it was ar--, it didn' ; t sound that way, like an arranged marriage. But then they were married and then they both came back to the States. Anna Takada: So did they marry in Japan? Merry Oya: They married in Japan. Anna Takada: And when he first came, do you know where he stayed or where in the U.S. he came to? Merry Oya: Well, I think most of them when they came to Japan, they came in by way of Seattle, Washington, because they came by ship. Anna Takada: And did he, did he move to Montana from there? Or where did he go from-- Merry Oya: Oh he w--, I think he went directly to Montana where he, where the, where the job was awaiting him. Anna Takada: And when he and your mother came, did they go back to Montana? Merry Oya: Actually, what happened was my, my father continued to work on the railroad, but my mother, I, I think she first stayed in Seattle and then she moved to a city in Montana because she, she couldn' ; t travel with my father because he was actually working in the railroads. And it was all, I, I guess, it was all men employed because they were laying out the railroads for the, for the trains. So it was all... My father, I guess, I, I wouldn' ; t call it a gang or a railroad gang group, but it was all men who were working, working on the railroad, laying out the rails for the trains and my mother found a job in Montana where she worked as a cook for well these, for a group of men who worked, she, she, excuse me, lived in a place, in a city called Whitefish, which was, in, in those days, Whitefish was known as a town where when the trains came through, they, they changed engines. So there were many, at that time, many Japanese working in that area too. So my, and they stayed at a place they used to call a, was more like a, well I think they, I think that was referred to as a rooming house for the men that worked there. And my mother got a job working as a cook. Anna Takada: But at that time did you say that she was not staying with your father? Merry Oya: Right. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So it was, so do know, was your father then staying in a rooming house separately? Merry Oya: No, no, no. He, the men that worked on the railroad, they traveled with the, with the work. Anna Takada: Oh, I see. And so at some point, I imagine they were reunited? Merry Oya: Right. Well then he, I don' ; t know how it happened, but then he ended up in, in Whitefish where my mother was. And I think he lived in Whitefish for a while. And, and at that time I have a brother and a sister. Anna Takada: And were they-- Merry Oya: I' ; m the oldest and my sister was next to me. And my, my brother at that time was, I was, he was still a baby. Anna Takada: So they had you in 1925. And then, and that was in Montana? Merry Oya: Yeah, I was born 1924. So my sister must have been born 1926. She was two years younger than me. But my brother was, I think he was born in 1930s, ' ; cause he was much, he was much younger than my sister. Anna Takada: And is, is Troy far from Whitefish? Merry Oya: I think so, but now I mean when I tell people where I was born, I can only say that it was really a small town. And in fact it may, may not even exist now. Anna Takada: So very, very small town. Merry Oya: Yes. But I was born in Mo-- in Troy, but my sister and my brother, they were born in Whitefish. Anna Takada: Okay. Was that because of the move? Merry Oya: Well, well because my father was working in the railroads, so I' ; m not quite sure how that ended up, but I know that-- because early on my mother was able to travel with the railroad too. So I think that' ; s what happened. That' ; s how I was born in Troy. But, but then after that my mother returned to Whitefish and she remained as a, as a cook to these people. And the three of us, the children, stayed in Whitefish for a while. Anna Takada: And was that while your father was still moving the railroad? Merry Oya: Mhmm. Yes. Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit more about what, what Troy was like and what it was growing up there? Merry Oya: I can' ; t tell you anything about Troy because I actually I-- Anna Takada: Oh, I' ; m sorry, Whitefish. Right. Merry Oya: ...I, I wasn' ; t really living there at the time. Anna Takada: Sure. I' ; m sorry, Whitefish. Merry Oya: But Whitefish was a small town, had not too many Japanese that were living, living there. But it was big enough that the, the laundry, the, the Japanese were pretty successful in that town because I remember the laundry was owned by a Japanese, the hotel was owned by a Japanese, there was a big farm that was owned by a Japanese. So I guess the, the few Japanese that lived there did, did, did quite well. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Merry Oya: And I, my, and then, but in the interim, my father died early too. So my mother was more or less keeping us together. And I, I think I finished, I think I stayed in Whitefish until I finished my sixth grade, through my sixth grade. And, and then, and then at that point, I think my mother realized that she couldn' ; t make a living, living in Whitefish. So we moved to Seattle. Anna Takada: After you completed the sixth grade? Merry Oya: Mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: What were, what were some of the main demographics of Whitefish? You mentioned there were a couple of Japanese American families? Merry Oya: Well, Whitefish was a, as I said, it was a railroad town, but it was a, it was a small town. In, in fact, right now, this is many, many years after now, Whitefish is now like a resort area because it has surrounded by mountains, lake, fishing. I mean that' ; s that' ; s, now that' ; s all taking place. But then at, when, at the time I lived there, it was all there. But we, we didn' ; t think of it as a, a, one of those resort areas. And I, because I know we, we were near a lake and we used to go swimming in the summertime and then, and in the winter we used to go sledding. Anna Takada: And... Merry Oya: Well, you have to realize too, when I was young, you know, things were different entirely. (laughs) Not only the city, but you know the whole world was kind of different at the time too, so... Anna Takada: Do you mean as far as like activities as a child? Merry Oya: Activities, and yeah. Anna Takada: What were some other activities that you remember doing as a, as a kid in Whitefish? Merry Oya: Well, actually there wasn' ; t, there wasn' ; t too much, but I think one thing I remember is, I don' ; t remember discrimination, and, and it may be because there were so few of us living there, but I know that when we were in school, all the children, you know acce-- not accepted us, but they, I think they thought we were just part of the, part of the group there. And I don' ; t ever recall being discriminated in any way while we were living there. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Were there any other kids or, or families, minority families? Merry Oya: Well there were, I, I think, as I said, there were a few Japan--, maybe there were about six, six or eight Japanese families that lived in Whitefish. And I think, I don' ; t know how long they were... When we left Whitefish, they, I know that the families that were still there were there for a long time Anna Takada: After you left? Merry Oya: Right. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And how about family life? Did you grow up religious at all? Merry Oya: Well, my mother was a Buddhist from the beginning and I, I started attending a, a Presbyterian church. And I think, and I, I' ; m thinking back, I think the only reason I attended that was the minister of the Presbyterian church happened to be visiting the Japanese families. And I, I think, I mean this is, this is my version, I think he thought that the kids were growing to be heathens. So, so he invited us to attend his, his church and that' ; s how I, I started. But then I enjoyed that because the, the, the kids were friendly and the teachers there were very nice. And I remember going to a party they had, so actually I had a lot of, despite my mother' ; s hardship, I still had a nice, you know, nice childhood, in my younger days. Anna Takada: What makes you say or, or think that, about the priest' ; s intentions? What makes you think that-- Merry Oya: Of the what? Anna Takada: --that he addressed... The reasons why he addressed Japanese families? Merry Oya: Why I mentioned them? Anna Takada: Or you mentioned that you thought that he was possibly reaching out to Japanese families because, to try to prevent people from growing up to be heathens? Merry Oya: Well, well I mean that' ; s my version because he was, he was visiting, I think he wanted to make sure that the kids weren' ; t just running wild. You know, maybe Sunday school was a good place for them to be. Be-because now that I recall, my sister, I don' ; t think she, I don' ; t think she went to church, and my brother was too young to be attending church anyway. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And what year or at what age did your father pass away? Merry Oya: I think, my, my-- The age of my father? I think he was about fif-- forty-- 47 or anyway he, he, I would say passed pretty young because the only one in my family that remembers my father, I' ; m the only one that remembers my father, my sister barely, and my brother didn' ; t know him at all. Anna Takada: So it sounds like your mother was raising-- Merry Oya: Yeah, my mother. Anna Takada: ...you and your siblings. Merry Oya: Mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: And growing up, did you... Were you speaking Japanese at home, or what languages were you-- Merry Oya: Well, well at that time my mother didn' ; t know English too well, but, so she spoke Japanese. And because she spoke Japanese, the children pretty much understood what, you know, the conversation that was going on. Anna Takada: Okay. So you mentioned in sixth grade your family moved to Seattle. Can you tell me more about the move and maybe what kind of work your mom did? Merry Oya: Well, my mother, b-because she was a, needed to support herself and children, my mother knew a couple of good friends in Seattle who encouraged her to come to Seattle. So we moved, and my mother found an apartment and she found... I think the first, I think the first job she found was helping, got a job at a cleaners. And then I know she had several jobs and she also had found a job because my mother was a, was a good cook. She also found a, a job at a home where the, the family, the mother had passed away. So they needed somebody to do their, not domestic work, but to do their cooking and things like that. And I know my mother had several different jobs. Anna Takada: So sounds like she was just trying to, to make a living to, to raise three kids? Merry Oya: And in the summer, Seattle, maybe you knew this already, but it was a big vegetable and fruit growing area. So in the summertime the farmers needed workers. So that' ; s what my mother and the, and the, and the children, we went to these different places where they needed farm workers. Anna Takada: One thing, I, I actually want to quickly go back to Whitefish for a second because... So you went to a Presbyterian church, though your mother was Buddhist and it sounds like there probably weren' ; t enough families or people practicing Buddhism for a church? Merry Oya: Oh, no, because all the Japanese families, the few families that were there, I don' ; t think, none of them, the adults anyway, went to church. And I imagine they were all Buddhist too. Anna Takada: So in that case, I imagine you probably didn' ; t go to Japanese school or anything like that either? Merry Oya: Right. But my, but my mother, she wanted to make sure that her, the children knew some Japanese, so she did teach us some Japanese. Well, I mean, we knew some of the words, but she taught us how to write Japanese. So, and I guess it was sufficient that when we, when we moved to Seattle, well you may already know this, but the, the Japanese who lived in these Seattle and town, you know, most of the children went to Japanese school after regular-- after attending the regular school. Well, fortunately my mother, I guess, taught us enough that I, I ended up in the fifth grade in the Japanese school. So I was really surprised that I could do that. Anna Takada: Mhmm. That is very impressive, to be able to just jump right in. Merry Oya: Yeah (laughs) Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember your first impressions of Seattle when you moved there? Merry Oya: Mmm... My first impression? Anna Takada: Was it very different from Whitefish or? Merry Oya: Well, when I, when we lived in Montana, it, it was, we were just surrounded by mountains and lakes. And when we moved to Se-- Whitefish, the area, the atmosphere itself was, I don' ; t think was too different because you were still... You could see in the mountain, you could see the lakes, and so I would say that maybe it was, could have been different because we were in, as I said, in the railroad town and we used to see the trains coming through town. And I, I guess as a, as a child, I wasn' ; t thinking too, too much about things like that. Anna Takada: Sure. And as a, a child in Seattle, were there any new kind of activities? You mentioned that you were working on the farm? Merry Oya: Oh, that was in the summer. Anna Takada: Only in the summertime? Merry Oya: Summer, yeah. Anna Takada: And how about the demographics of Seattle at that time? Merry Oya: Well... Anna Takada: I would imagine it was a bit more people in general. Merry Oya: Oh yeah, a lot more people. Oh, in fact, in fact now that you mention it, I went, I started seventh grade and I was in an area and then-- and, and I saw a lot more people in Seattle, but I saw a lot more Asians too. And, and what really struck me was when I started seventh grade was, the, the room, seventh grade classroom I was in, it was, except for one Caucasian, everyone was an Asian, which was, they were mostly Japanese and a few Chinese. And, and, and not seeing too many Asians you know where I, where I came from, I was really bowled over to see so many. (laughs) Anna Takada: Sure, yeah. That must have been a first for you? Merry Oya: Yeah. But, but that school also, I guess, because it was in... Maybe it was a Japanese... Maybe, maybe many Japanese that lived in the area? I don' ; t know, but I know the whole school was pretty much predominantly Asian. Anna Takada: Did that have any kind of impact on how you saw your own identity or did you not really think about it? Merry Oya: No, it, it was just that I, when I saw so many Japane--, you know not, not seeing hardly any Japanese before and I saw all these kids around me were all Asians. Anna Takada: What part of, do you remember what part of Seattle you were living in at that time? Merry Oya: Oh, not really. Not really. Anna Takada: But it sounds like there were plenty of other Japanese and Chinese families? Merry Oya: Uh-huh, yeah. I think there were quite a few Chi-- Japanese living in Seattle, because at that time they already had a like a Japanesetown and a Chinatown... But, I remember those two areas. Anna Takada: Let' ; s see. And so, did you, were you still in Seattle through high school then as well? Merry Oya: I went to high school through, I went seventh grade, junior high, and I went to one year of high school and then we, we moved to Oregon. You know, my mother had to go look for a job, so we ended up on a farm. She knew someo--, she knew a family that owned a farm, so we moved to Oregon. So my mother became like a farmer again and, and be-because we lived on a farm you know, we were able to get plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables. And so you know, that helped my mother. But then for us, for the children too, we were able to work, work, because we could do some, some things that would be helpful. So, so we were on the, we stayed at the farm until the war, war started. Anna Takada: What kind of farm was it? Merry Oya: It was mostly a truck farm, but it was mostly fruits, strawberries and berries. Anna Takada: And so you mentioned that you were, on the farm, you were able to help out more. In your mother' ; s various other positions before that in Seattle, did you help out in any kind of way or do you have any memories of helping her? Merry Oya: You mean as far as economy is concerned, with money or? Anna Takada: Or, or you know if, if she was at the cleaners or, you know, if there was any way you all helped out? Merry Oya: No. Well, when we were in Oregon, we just, we were at the farm all that time while I was in the high school for two years. Anna Takada: And as far as-- So it sounds like the kind of the trajectory of your family, it was with the help of friends that your mother knew, were these friends from Japan? Merry Oya: Well, I think they originally were. Well, these, the people that own, that...well they didn' ; t actually they didn' ; t really own the, the land. You know they couldn' ; t own land at that time. But so it must have been typically you know a lot of Japanese had farm, farmlands to work, so this person had a big area so he had a lot of people working for him too, farm hands. Anna Takada: Mhmm. What were some of your, your duties working on the farm? Merry Oya: Well we, after school we had to help with whatever farm work. I mean, if you work on a farm, you' ; re always working, doing some things. Anna Takada: How did you, how did you, as a kid, or I guess a teenager at this point, how did you feel about the farm work? Did you enjoy it or? Merry Oya: Well, I didn' ; t mind it. The only farm work I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really like was strawberries, because straw--, when you' ; re, when you' ; re picking strawberry, you' ; re on your knees all the time. You know you' ; re not standing or sitting, you' ; re on your, you know you' ; re squatting. So for me that was really something that I really didn' ; t care for. And I still have memories of when I used to work in the strawberry patches. Anna Takada: And as kids, were you all earning money that way? Merry Oya: Oh yeah, we, we were, we were paid for whatever we were doing. For instance, if you, if you' ; re, if you' ; re working the berries, you know you, if you, whatever quantity you were picking, you got paid for that amount that you picked so... And it was the same as the adults except that since we were slower, we didn' ; t get much as the adults were. Anna Takada: Sure. And where were you, what was your living situation at that time? Merry Oya: Well, we lived in a, a place well, because they had other workers and they, and I think these buildings were called bunk houses. And the workers, they, I think each family was afforded... Well it was like a cabin and I think there were like three rooms. So it was like a bedroom, couple of bedrooms and kitchen. And the rooms were small, but it, it was, they were comfortable. Anna Takada: And so I imagine, it must have been on this farm, well you said it was on this farm when the war broke out that you, your family was living. Can you tell me about your, your memories of the war starting, and... Merry Oya: Oh, well, I know that we were all work, working. I don' ; t, I forgot what we were doing. But anyway, we were working and then we heard somebody came in and said that Japan started the war. And of course we were all shocked to hear, hear the news about that. And then, so then, I think that, I, well especially the Issei' ; s were wondering what was going to be happening to them, because it was a war against their, the former country. So I know for a couple days there, there was anxiety as to what was going to be happening to the Japanese. And then right after that we heard that about the evacuation, about... But then, that' ; s when, you know, the treatment of the Japanese got a little bit offhand and we were told that we had to leave. And of course, my, since my mother didn' ; t really own anything, so to speak. For her it wasn' ; t so much of a tragedy of, of economy or being able to support herself because we, we all had to leave at the same time with, with whatever we were able to take with us. Anna Takada: Just a, a couple of quick questions. The, so the, the man who, he didn' ; t own the property but he was Japanese, the, the head person. And as far as the farm hands and other people on the farm, were they mostly Japanese? Merry Oya: They were all Japanese. Anna Takada: All Japanese? Merry Oya: Japanese, yeah. Anna Takada: And you mentioned that after the start of the war, the treatment of Japanese changed? Merry Oya: Well, well, as, as far as attitude I wasn' ; t too aware of it. Because where, where we were across, across the road, it was a family, Caucasian family. They, they didn' ; t really own a farm except they had their own farm, but it wasn' ; t big enough I guess for them to hire people. But a very nice family, I know that when the restrictions came and we weren' ; t allowed to be out you know a certain time of the day or at night, this family had their own, just for their own purpose, they had a cow so they used to have milk and they had eggs. So what, what we, what we used to, what they used to do was they would sneak over across the street and give us milk and eggs and whatever. I mean, they were really, really... When I hear about stories about other people and I think about this family, you know I' ; m, I' ; m so appreciative that, that they were that way. Anna Takada: Do you remember their names? Merry Oya: Well, their name was Carlin. I remember them. And it was a Mr. Carlin and his wife and then they had two boys. And the boys, the boys, the younger boy was about the same age as my brother and they went to the same school, and they got along well because be-before all this happened, they used to go across the street and play with each other, and... But the reason I say they were so kind was when we, you know later, later on, after we were settled in the camps, you know we were permitted to, or maybe this is after we resettled in Chicago, we were permitted to receive some of the things that were stored. And we, and they had, the Carlin family had restored for us, we didn' ; t have too much furniture, but a, a double bed and a dresser. And, and they kept that for us, the Carlin family kept those two things for us. And then when we were able to receive the furniture, they, I think the government shipped them. But nonetheless, you know the Carlin family took care of everything. And then, and then I remember the very first Christmas in the camp, we got a, a package. It was, it wasn' ; t really a Christmas when I opened it, it was holly leaves because in the winter that area grew tons of holly with the berries. And anyway, we got this and I was really so shook up to see that. (laughs) Anna Takada: A very kind gesture. Merry Oya: Yeah, mhmm. Anna Takada: So... Okay. So you learned about Pearl Harbor while you were on the farm, did... And you, and you mentioned that treatment in general, treatment of Japanese was, it kinda, it worsened I guess, after? Merry Oya: Well, actually I didn' ; t hear too much about you know... I mean ' ; cause I' ; ve heard of other stories about signs in the stores and all that kind of thing. ' ; Cause, since we didn' ; t have access to go into town, I don' ; t know if they had signs that said you know, discriminatory type of... But I know at the school, because we were still going to school, the, the, the student body didn' ; t treat us any differently. At least I didn' ; t notice that. And I know that the day when we actually left, when the buses took us to the, to the assembly center, the, the high school that I was going to, the, the student body came out on the street and, and waved goodbye to us. Anna Takada: Wow. And actually, you know what, I' ; m going to, if you don' ; t mind, I' ; m just going to adjust the microphone real quickly. It' ; s getting a little scratchy. Pardon me, sorry about that, let' ; s try this. These things are so temperamental sometimes, I have to get it in the right spot. That should be okay. Are you still comfortable? Merry Oya: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: Okay. Okay, so we were talking about when, when your family actually left for evacuation, but first I, I want to ask you, do you remember like first getting word about the evacuation and hearing about it? Because you were, you were a teenager, so... Merry Oya: Mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: Do you remember your, your own personal response or reactions to that? Merry Oya: Well, all I know is that, and then we heard on the radio, somebody heard on the radio about this, the war, that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. But, so I think all the Issei' ; s were really concerned about that and we were wondering, I think they were wondering what was going to be, what the government was going to do. And then-- Anna Takada: So, were there rumors going around, or... Merry Oya: Well, I, I didn' ; t hear any ru-- I mean, there might have been, but maybe for the Issei' ; s or the older, there might have been concern, more concern. But I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really hear that. And neither did my mother, since she was just a worker there. But, but we did hear eventually, that, first, first thing we heard were if you owned any items like camera or radio, what, whatever, that those were going to be confiscated by the government. So I think that was more or less the first thing we heard that, as far as the government' ; s action was concerned. But, but then after that, and I, I don' ; t, and I don' ; t really remember how it came about, but then I, I think we were told by the, the man who owned, that was working the farm, he told us that the government was about to eventually move, move us. And then we had this order about packing everything in 10 days, or one week, or whatever it was, and, and I think that was, I think that part was the most disturbing. And for my family for my mother, as my mother said, she said she was lucky she didn' ; t have too many possessions that she had to really get rid of. Because, if you, if you own, owned the farm or anything connected, you know, it was more of a loss for them because so many farmers lost their land and so, so many other possessions, and, because you were limited in the amount, in the things, the, amount of things you could carry. So anyways, I said my mother, although there was a loss, still she, she realized that her loss wasn' ; t as great as the, the people that she was working, the farm that she, the owner of the farm that she was working for. Anna Takada: And so I, you mentioned that you wouldn' ; t really go into town and I know that' ; s how you know, oftentimes the government was posting signs to notify folks of this, but it sounds like the, the head farmer kind of reported back to you all to communicate the news, or... Merry Oya: Well, I don' ; t, I don' ; t know how, I, I, I think that the authorities, the federal authorities probably came around too, to these various farms, Japanese farms and to tell them that, what' ; s going to happen. And then so the, the owners would in turn tell us, but, but since, since I never got to go in town I don' ; t know what the, what the, how they treated the Japanese customers if they went into town, because I didn' ; t hear anything about that part. Anna Takada: And I' ; m not sure if you mentioned, but what was the name of the town in Oregon? Merry Oya: Oh, Gresham. Anna Takada: Gresham. Merry Oya: Which is, which is now, Gresham was a farm town, but Gresham is now, like so many other areas, is, is a suburb of Portland. Anna Takada: So your, you and your family had to, to pack your things and you left the furniture as you mentioned with the family across the street. So where did you all go from there, or I g-- what, what happened next, after? Merry Oya: Well, then that' ; s when we, we were, we got the notice about, we were going to be put into a, a someplace in Portland. We were going to be all bused to Portland. So we had to put our things together and be ready at a, on a certain date, which wasn' ; t, which, which was a, wasn' ; t too much time for packing. Anna Takada: You said a, a week, or... Merry Oya: I think yeah. I know, I know, it' ; s so limited, I mean how much can you do in a week, or two weeks, or whatever? Because, because you could carry, you could only take with you whatever you can carry. Anna Takada: Right. And I, I imagine too, just having to prepare to kind of uproot in general, there are a number of steps. Merry Oya: Yeah because, there was, actually my, some people had to help my mother get, get her stuff ready for, for her family. So it was, it was kind of an ordeal for my mother, but somehow she managed. But, but this, and then when we were told to be ready at a certain time or, and be ready at a certain place, when we got there we saw all these Japanese families with their belongings. And I, I kinda think that maybe at that point it, it kinda hit us that you know, we were really losing, losing our... Well, I, I even though I was a teenager at the time, I was thinking that, " ; I wonder if we' ; re ever going to be coming back here?" ; And, and you know, and I also was wondering, " ; What' ; s going to happen to us after we-- I mean, what' ; s in Portland? They' ; re going to send us to Portland, what' ; s in Portland?" ; Anna Takada: So there was, no one really had any kind of idea? Merry Oya: Well, there, there might have been, there might have been, but it was, at least I wasn' ; t aware of it. But I know that the person in ch-- that was operating the farm, at least he told everybody that was working for him what was, what was about to happen, so we did what we thought we were told. Anna Takada: Do you remember having any conversations within your family about what was happening, either with your mom or your younger siblings? Because I, your brother was much younger. Merry Oya: Yeah, well no. So we followed along with the owner, whoever, whatever they were going to do, my mother was going to follow along with them. Even though we didn' ; t know where we were, where we were goi-- I mean, we knew where we were going, to Portland, but we didn' ; t know where or, or what' ; s there. So my mother just followed along with them. Anna Takada: So what happened when you arrived to, to Portland? Merry Oya: Well then we found out that we were going to be in an, this assembly center, which was really... What, what do they call those places where they keep horses? Anna Takada: A racetrack? Merry Oya: A rac-- yeah, it' ; s a race track place. And I wouldn' ; t call it a room, but it was, I guess it' ; s one of those stable rooms where the horses stayed. So they just dumped all our stuff into that, into that area and I... and told us that that' ; s where we were going to be staying... And I didn' ; t hear for how long or anything but that was going to, but, but they said it was going to be temporary, but we, we didn' ; t know what that meant by temporary, whether we were going to a better housing arrangement or if we, if we were going to be moving on again. Anna Takada: Can you describe the, the space where you and your family were, were staying? Merry Oya: Well, all I can remember is that it was like a one room place and I think, I think there was, I think there were cots there, but I don' ; t think there was too much furniture. And at, at least I, if there were, I would probably remember the, I would remember the type of furniture. So I, I don' ; t really remember t-- because in, actually we were in Portland, but not too long because we were immediately evacuated to Tule Lake. Anna Takada: So how long do you think you stayed in the assembly center? Merry Oya: Well, it just, it just seemed like maybe several weeks? And well, we, we heard, maybe it was a rumor, but we heard that eventu--, and, and all the people that lived in Portland ended up in that same assembly center. And we, we heard that eventually everybody that was in that assembly center would eventually go to Tule Lake. We heard that, so, so our, our group decided as long as we were going to be going to Tule Lake, we, we couldn' ; t take the condition in, in Portland, we decided that we would be, we would join the group that' ; s going down to Tule Lake. And so because we had that opportunity, we didn' ; t stay in Portland too long, but that was another train, train ride from Portland Assembly Center out to Tule Lake. But then we found out later that the Portland people were not going to Tule Lake. I don' ; t, I forget where they ended up, but... Well, I think they went to another assembly center close to, close to Portland. Yeah, I think so. So anyway, we ended up in Tule Lake after a long train ride which was miserable. They asked us to close the windows, the blinds so we, we couldn' ; t see out and they had soldiers in our car guarding us. Anna Takada: What were your, your feelings at the time or your reactions to kind of... Merry Oya: For the treatment we were getting? Anna Takada: Yeah. Merry Oya: Well, I, I, I know my, my mother was really miserable about all this, but I, ' ; cause I, I thought since we would be moving anyway, I thought maybe I could, I could tolerate it for a little while anyway. And as, as I said, since we were in Portland for only a short time anyway, I thought the opportunity-- And, and my mother thought so too, the opportunity to move out into supposedly more better housing and all that. Anna Takada: And how about your, your feelings or reactions when you had first arrived to Portland assembly center? Merry Oya: Tule L-- In, in Portland? You know at the assembly center? Anna Takada: Because that was really, that was like your first day, and a pretty drastic change from... Merry Oya: Well, because, well they, it was organized so that there was like a dining hall and it was organized according to whatever group you were in. And, and I, and you know that, that to this day, I can' ; t remember that the, the bathing and shower facilities. And sometimes I wonder, did I really take a bath while I was there? Anna Takada: Right, it might be more telling that you can' ; t remember even. Merry Oya: Yeah, because otherwise I was thinking that I would remember what the facilities look like. But I know that off and on I would think about that, and I think, gee, did I take a bath? (laughs) Anna Takada: It was only a couple weeks. (laughs) How old was your brother at this time, would you say? Merry Oya: My brother must have been about... He was going to school, fir--, sec-- he must have been in first or second grade because I know that the school that he was attending, it was a, it was one of these country schools and it was like a two room. ' ; Cause I know like the first row was the first graders, the second row was the second graders, that kind of a setup. Anna Takada: A schoolhouse. Merry Oya: Yeah. So he must have been about 6, 7, 8? 6, 7, 8... Anna Takada: And you said that I think it was your third year of high school, that was the year of the evacuation? Merry Oya: Third year. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And so would it have been like in the springtime? Probably April that year? Merry Oya: The evacuation? Anna Takada: Does that sound about right? Merry Oya: Yeah, because we, we more or less were finishing our grades, so... Anna Takada: So then what ha-- when you arrived to the assembly center, did you continue school, or... Merry Oya: We, no, not, not in the assembly center. I don' ; t, I don' ; t think it was planned that way because the government was probably thinking that it' ; s going to be temporary anyway. So I mean, that' ; s, that was my thinking about that, because except for the, the dining facilities to feed the people, that, that was the only organized thing that I can remember in the camp. Anna Takada: Okay. So you took the train to, to Tule Lake. Can you tell me more about arriving to Tule Lake, what that was like? Merry Oya: Well, it was a, I guess we didn' ; t, first of all, I guess we didn' ; t really know what we were supposed to be doing. We, we got off, we had this train ride from Portland to the Tule Lake, and it was, it was a long ride too, and hardly any facilities. But eventually, we did get to Tule Lake. But there, again, we were assigned the barracks that we were, we were to go to. And when we got into our assigned barracks, we discovered there were cots for the beds, and I think there might have been chairs, and maybe a table. I don' ; t, I don' ; t really remember that too clearly. But, and it, and it w--, it was such a disappointing thing, because it was, the place was bare. And I think, I think they had blankets on the, on the cots, but, but that was about it. And then, they had a, I think it was, I think it was like a potbelly stove, and I, I think there were a couple chairs, but to me it was such a small room for... Even though there was just one adult and three children, it to me it seemed like such a small room for a family. And it was hard getting settled in a, you know in, in an unfamiliar arrangement. Anna Takada: And you were still with, you had gone with Tule Lake with folks from the farm, so they were, were they nearby? Merry Oya: Not, not near, not that... But we were in the, because they were by barracks. They were in the, and, and the barracks composed, composed, the ward consisted of barracks, but this family was in another barrack, in another area-- but in the same area as us, so at least we could see them. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, do you know about what time of year this was that you would have arrived? Merry Oya: Oh, well I would think it might have been during the summer, because it' ; s right after we finished school. I was at Portland, so it probably was in the summer? Anna Takada: And um-- Merry Oya: Because I think later on, they were talking about starting a school for the, for the people that needed the schooling, or the education. And I think that was probably in the summertime they were talking about that. Anna Takada: And so, for a, a teenager, what was kind of like your daily life like in camp at Tule Lake? Merry Oya: After we got, after we got to Tule Lake? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Merry Oya: Well, it was organized in such a way that one, one area of the ward, where the other barracks were, by then they were trying to have some kind of a management system for the, for the camp. And so for each ward, there was like a manager, who more or less was a, was a person you should go to for information, or whatever. And he, he' ; s one who looked, looked, made sure that everybody was settled and... Which was, really, a big, big job for him, but anyway, we got settled, but... It, it was really, it was, I mean, I know so many people managed, but it was really, it was hard to get settled in a place where you don' ; t have, you, you barely brought your own bedding, for one thing, and other necessities that you needed. So in the, in the beginning it was really hard for I think most of the people that came to camp. Anna Takada: How did people address those kinds of issues? Merry Oya: Well, I think we all did the same thing, we had to... And, and then, well typically, dust storms, which was another, another thing that we, we were never used to. And the, these barracks were constructed in such a way that it was not seal proof, so that even though your windows were closed, your doors were closed, sand would still come. And it, if you were sleeping during the night, you might wake up with sand on your b-blanket. It was really, yeah, I remember the sand. Anna Takada: And so, there was talk of starting the, the schools up, did you eventually end up going to school? Merry Oya: Well, I, I was a senior then, and they were already talking about opening a school. But then they were recruiting for teachers, and I know some, some of them were probably certified teachers, but then they didn' ; t have enough people to be teaching, so I, I know there were quite a few college-aged students or people, that were actually doing some teaching too. Anna Takada: And, so did you, yourself, go back to, or continue, school for your final year of high school? Merry Oya: Do you mean after we left camp? Anna Takada: No, in camp. Merry Oya: Well, we I went to, we, they, they did organize the camp, so that it was... I guess if you, so, you still had your specialty, what, whatever course that you wanted to take, they still apparently had teachers that could teach things like that. But, actually, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t think, I didn' ; t feel I got much of an education in camp. Anna Takada: Just the quality wasn' ; t there, or... Merry Oya: Yeah, I think so. And, I sometimes felt that the teachers, especially the, the Caucasian teachers that were there, they, they must have been hard up to get teachers. I mean that was my feeling that-- Because after you' ; ve been in a, in a school where you have good teachers, and you have teachers that can answer your questions, and take time. The teachers that I had in my, at camp were not that type. So, for me, it was very discouraging to me. So I really admire these people that left camp and went on to college, and were able to, yeah because they were, despite all that they were still able to finish school, you know. So that was one of my great regrets. Anna Takada: Did your mother work in camp? Merry Oya: She worked as a, as a cook, that worked in, that worked in the kitchen. Yeah many of the, many of the women worked in the kitchen as cooks, or dishwashers, or whatever was needed in the kitchen you know so-- And many of the women did that, although some of the women, Issei women I noticed, because they were professionals so to speak, you know, teaching arts and knitting, those kinds of things. Eventually, those groups were started, and so, I know many of the women did join those groups. And I think they enjoyed doing things like that, because it was kind of a change for them. Anna Takada: Maybe something to kind of pass the time? Merry Oya: Yeah, and to be with you know friends, or get to know other people. Anna Takada: And did you, did you make friends in camp? Merry Oya: Oh yeah, I did, because of my classmates I did. I made some good friends, but then after the camp closed, after we had to leave Tule Lake, then we all got separated. And, and a few I kept up with, but then, along the way, you know the, I don' ; t know what happened to these people because then they, they also had moved on to other things. Anna Takada: How long were you in Tule Lake with your family, would you say? Merry Oya: I think I was there maybe, maybe two years, I think. Let' ; s see, I graduated in ' ; 43 and I think I left... ' ; 44... I think I left in ' ; 44. So, I think I was in camp about two years? Anna Takada: And so where did you, in 1944, where did you go? Merry Oya: Well then, Tule Lake was a camp, you probably know. So, we got sent to Minidoka, back up to Idaho. And I mean other people went to other camps, too, but they, they removed us because they wanted to make Tule Lake a segregated camp for the people that wanted to return to Japan and... Anna Takada: What they called " ; maximum security" ; , and... Merry Oya: Yeah. Anna Takada: So in ' ; 44 you left for Minidoka ; can you tell me what Min-Minidoka was-- Merry Oya: Actually, we didn' ; t stay in Minidoka too long, either, because my mother wanted to get, get out. Anna Takada: It' ; s a lot, yeah. Merry Oya: So I don' ; t know, I mean, I don' ; t think we were even there maybe six months. I mean we were, it just seemed like we were in there and we, my mother was really anxious to, really anxious to leave, so, and we had friends in Chicago so... And they had encouraged, encouraged my mother to come to Chicago. So that' ; s how we ended up in Chicago. Anna Takada: Would that have been still in 1944, or maybe 1945? Merry Oya: Might have been about ' ; 44. Anna Takada: How did Minidoka compare to Tule Lake? Merry Oya: Well, I couldn' ; t really make a comparison, because as I said, we were in Minidoka such a short time. But then of course, by the time we got to Minidoka, the, the atmosphere was different, and Minidoka was not like Tule Lake where you had a lot of sandstorms. And, for me it was like a, for me, I thought it was like a cleaner environment, to be there. Anna Takada: And by that time, you said that you had graduated-- Merry Oya: Well, I graduated from Tule Lake school, I mean, high school in Tule Lake. Anna Takada: So did you work in Minidoka, or were you just-- Merry Oya: Well, when, when we were in Tule Lake, we worked until we started school. I did, I think everybody that was eligible did work I, I, you know, either in the offices, or in the kitchen, or out-outdoors. I think the men worked outdoors in the farms and things. Yeah, so everybody that could, I think did, did work. Anna Takada: What, what did you do? Merry Oya: Well I had a, I had a job a short time working in an office, which gave me a chance to practice my so-called office skills. And that was enjoyable. Anna Takada: So, can you tell me more about this connection your mother had in, in Chicago, and sort of the process of leaving camp? Merry Oya: Oh well, my mother, through friends in Chicago, we, we managed, my mother managed to find a... well, I wouldn' ; t call it an apartment, but it was a building where the kitchen, it was all separate rooms. The kitchen, had two bedrooms, I think that was it, kitchen... So, and because, because there were only the three rooms, my sister decided that she' ; s going to work as domestic help or something. So she can, not only, she didn' ; t like the arrangement anyway, the way we were doing it, so she said she would go work as a domestic so... And she, she' ; s always claimed that she got picked to, to, to make the sacrifice, so-called sacrifice. Anna Takada: Where, where in Chicago was this building? Merry Oya: It' ; s on the fif-- on the South Side. It' ; s not there anymore. And, and as you probably know too, that, even, oh by then the war was over. By then, even though the war was over, and I tried to find housing, rent, rent an apartment, ' ; cause, ' ; cause this place we stayed at was not ideal for us, but then there we did meet discrimination. Because if we saw, if I saw a sign in a newspaper that there were apartments available, I would go, and it, of course it was always not available. So, and housing was acute, because of after the war... So anyways that' ; s why my sist-- but then, we met, then we met a Japanese who actually, I guess he had come out earlier, and he actually bought a building, apartment building so... We were able to move into his building, which was old, but still, it was three rooms, and we were able to once again, you know become a family. But that, that was kind of a hardship, hardship too, because we' ; d be squeezed into three, three rooms, and it was a bedroom, a living room, and a kitchen. Anna Takada: Whereabouts on the South Side was the second home that you found? Merry Oya: The second home? Well, the first, the first home is, do you know where the, the BTC is here? It was the first BTC church on the corner of Dorchester and fifty, 55th Street. And, on back of that church was this building where they were renting the rooms. Anna Takada: So that was the first? Merry Oya: That was the first place. And then, this Japanese man who bought this apartment building, this was about a couple blocks... It was on 57th and Dorchester, I think it was. Anna Takada: Before you had... I don' ; t get to ask many people this, because a lot of folks that I speak to were a bit younger than you at the time. Merry Oya: Mhmm. Anna Takada: But do you remember, when you... when your mother had made the arrangements to come to Chicago, do you remember your... how you felt about that move? ' ; Cause, you know, Chicago is pretty far away... Merry Oya: Well, well, first of all, I think it' ; s because my mother wanted to get out of the camp. Secondly, since, since there was an opportunity, since a friend had you know, suggested it, because, because this friend told her that at least he could find an apartment at, so we could stay while we' ; re either looking for a job, or an apartment. So she, with that, we came to Chicago. And, which well, I guess in reality we got the apartment. And, I think, what happened? And then, at, of course that at that point then, we had to look for, we wanted to look for a job, because... So at that time, you know they had this, which is the JAS...JAS... which was for... I think it was called... do you, do you remember? Anna Takada: The Resettlers Committee? Merry Oya: Yeah, Resettlers Committee were h-helping the Japanese find jobs and apartments. So, through them, we found, we, we found this apartment that was owned by this Japanese. Anna Takada: And that was the, the second home you had lived in, in Chicago? Merry Oya: Mm-hmm, mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: Before you arrived, did you know anything about Chicago? Merry Oya: No, we just knew it was a big city. (laughs) Anna Takada: Was that scary at all, to think about? Merry Oya: Well... Anna Takada: Such a big move. Merry Oya: Well, I, I don' ; t think it scared us so much as I was, it, I was just wondering how I' ; m going to get around here, you know I, ' ; cause I didn' ; t know any-- transportation, I don' ; t know what it was, and not knowing the area at all. And, and I think one thing that my mother was comfortab-- comfortable with, was that, there was, and they, they were going to start this Buddhist church on this 57th and Dorchester. So, with that, she, she came. And then, we went to, we were, I went to the service committee and they, they told my mother that she, that they had lots of openings for... They wanted seamstresses, and since my mother could sew... So actually, my mother got, my mother had a job first, but, but I wanted to make sure my mother got settled before I started. So I, she, she got this sewing job and then after that-- Anna Takada: Where, where was that sewing job? Merry Oya: Oh it was downtown, it was downtown. At that time, that area was like a sewing center, a fabric center, and they had, I know they had lots of shops there at one time. But, when I went to the Resettlers to find a job for myself, well, I, actually, I had a lot of jobs before I found a permanent... I, I would go to one place and it was temporary, and then I' ; d find another job, and I didn' ; t like it. And besides, I didn' ; t have any experience. So, but finally the, the... And, and they had a Caucasian fellow, I can' ; t remember his name, that was helping the service committee. He, he said, " ; I have a good job for you now," ; and I said " ; Where?" ; And he referred me to a shop on Michigan Ave. It was a, one of these places, exclusive places where the women come out with the models, and all that kind of thing. So I, but I said to him, I said, " ; You know, I don' ; t have any office experience." ; He said, " ; That' ; s okay." ; He said, " ; That' ; s okay." ; He said, " ; They want you." ; So I went and I got my first experience typing a little bit of shorthand. But, and, and I got a bird' ; s eye view of what the rich, you know, how they, how they got about doing things. But anyway, but that was, it, it was kind of interesting, but it was a little boring. So then I had to find another job. Anna Takada: And where-- Merry Oya: And it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t paying that well either. Anna Takada: Where on Michigan, was that downtown? Merry Oya: Yeah, it was on Michigan Ave. It was, it was near what it was, what it was, the Tribune Tower. Anna Takada: And so how were, how were you and your mother getting around? Merry Oya: Oh, street, street car. At that time it was street car, but I had to show my mother had to use a street car. So, before I could start working, I had to get her kind of settled and oriented. So, I used to get on the street car with her and show her where to get off, and get on. So when she, and then, when she got the job, she had to know where to go, so I did that for a little while. I went with her and I said, " ; This is where you' ; re going to go work." ; And then, when it was time for her to leave, I would meet her so we can go home together. Well so we did that for not too long, but then one day, I said to my mother, " ; I think that you, I think you can do it yourself now." ; So she got to the, the street car, riding the street car was not difficult because all you had to do was, all she had to do was get on, and get off, and then walk a couple blocks. But then, she was a little confused about going home, even though I told her it' ; s the same route, only going backwards. But I went to meet her and she saw me, and she said, she said in Japanese, it was such a relief to see me standing there. But, but... Anna Takada: Do you think that was because just, to have a familiar face in an unfamiliar place? Merry Oya: I think so, because she didn' ; t complain about the work. She was more concerned about that. But then, after that, I found out about the IC. You know about the I--, is that the IC, that, that train travels south? Anna Takada: I only know the L, or the-- Merry Oya: Oh it' ; s not a, it' ; s not an L, it' ; s a, it' ; s an electric train that goes down to, it' ; s on the South Side, it goes to Gary. Anna Takada: Oh okay. Merry Oya: Well anyway, I found out that, that there' ; s the IC station, which if, if you pay the fare, it goes directly downtown, which was, which was much quicker than riding the street car for an hour. So then I showed my mother how to ride that thing, so she could save time you know traveling so... But all during the time that my mother was in Chicago working, she worked in this clothing industries. So and she got, she got, because of her skills, she was able to get, go from one job to another, finding better jobs. And so s--, I think she was satisfied with the job she had. And then at the end, she did make friends, you know even with the Caucasian women. Although she told me most of the women were Japanese, they were Japanese. They want, the, the employer-- employee-- employers wanted Japanese women for their shops. Anna Takada: Do you know why? Merry Oya: Well maybe, maybe skilled for one thing, skill was one thing, I think. But my moth--, my mother said they became like a group. And maybe because they, they were qui--, I don' ; t know if they were quiet, but they probably did not cause any problems. Anna Takada: And you said she had kind of worked her way up? And this was like still in sewing industry? Merry Oya: Mhmm. Mhmm. Well she got to the, I know this last job she had, she got to the point where she became like a, what they call a pattern maker. She makes the models for the other women to follow the, the clothes that they were sewing. So, so she, she didn' ; t have to do the same thing all the time, because she was doing making, sewing these different models for the other women to sew. Anna Takada: What, what was the timeline for that? How much time had passed from the start of when you were in Chicago, to when she was making patterns? How much time do you think? Merry Oya: Mhmm, Yeah. Well she was, ' ; cause she worked a long time. I think she was... forty, 30 years, 40 years? Anna Takada: Oh, wow, so we' ; re talking like-- Merry Oya: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah she worked until she was 70, I think. She retired at 70. Anna Takada: And as far as your siblings, when you had first arrived. Were, well, let' ; s see. Would your, would they have both been in school still? Merry Oya: No. Anna Takada: Your sister and brother? Merry Oya: What happened was my sister, she went to business school. This is while she was still working at, part ti-- I mean at the, as a domestic. She went to business school, finished that, and she got an offi--, then she got an office job. Anna Takada: Where did she go to business school? Merry Oya: I can' ; t remember. It, it could have been Bryant & ; Stratton. Anna Takada: But it was in the city? Merry Oya: Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Does that mean, did she graduate high school in camp, while you were in camp? Merry Oya: She, she graduated in, in, in Minidoka. Anna Takada: Okay. Merry Oya: Soon, so soon as my sis--, my sister graduated, then that' ; s when we left. She didn' ; t, she didn' ; t gradu-- Oh, did she graduate from Tule Lake? Well, I can' ; t remember now whether she graduated from Tule Lake or-- Anna Takada: But it was in, it was in camp? Merry Oya: Because she was a year after me. Anna Takada: Oh, I see. And how about your, your younger brother? Merry Oya: Oh, my, my brother went to, continued school here and he was attending at that, Hyde Park High School. Anna Takada: Okay. So he, he was in high school by the time you came to Chicago. Merry Oya: Mhmm. Yeah. Anna Takada: And, and, I' ; m sorry, what are your siblings' ; names? Merry Oya: My sister, her name is Ruth. She' ; s passed, she passed away last year. Anna Takada: Oh, I' ; m sorry. Merry Oya: And my, I have a sister named-- brother named George. Anna Takada: And so just to, to get a better idea of your, those early days when you had first arrived in Chicago, so your sister took up work, domestic work. Do you know where the family she was-- Merry Oya: Oh, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: But she, that means that she was living there, right? Merry Oya: Yeah, right, yeah with the family uh-huh. Anna Takada: Did she come home on weekends or-- Merry Oya: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: You still got to see her. And George had enrolled at Hyde Park. And you mentioned that you all were going to what was then Chicago Buddhist Church? Merry Oya: No, just my mother and my brother, and, and, because in the meantime, my sister, she, she, she moved to Seattle b-because she was going with a fellow. He was in the, this was, he was still in the service at the time, but he came to Chicago and they resumed their friendship. So then she decided she' ; s going to go to, back to Seattle, and then eventually they got married. So my sister settled in Seattle. So she didn' ; t, after she got here, she didn' ; t stay too long in Chicago. Anna Takada: How long do you think she was here before moving? Merry Oya: Maybe about two, let' ; s see, two, maybe about two years. I know it wasn' ; t too long. Anna Takada: A shorter time. And, do you know how long you were, you were in that, the second building at 57th and Dorchester? Merry Oya: Oh, we were in there a long time. I can' ; t, I can' ; t... As I said, if, if I knew you were going to ask me these, I would' ; ve, I would' ; ve brought my... Let' ; s see. Anna Takada: 10 years or-- Merry Oya: Yeah, maybe, maybe. Because from the 57th Street, then we moved up north. And I know at that time my sister was not with me, with us, so... Anna Takada: And, 57th and Dorchester at that time, can you describe what that, that neighborhood or that area was like? Merry Oya: Well, that' ; s the University of Chicago neighborhood. And it was, I mean, I thought it was pleasant. It, nothing really exciting happened except that I, I know that there were, it' ; s not only the area, but there were a lot of things to see and do out there because the museum was there and-- Anna Takada: Which, which museum? Merry Oya: The Museum of Science and Industry. It was within walking distance of where we were living. And we had, the University of Chicago used to have different kinds of activities, and we would go there. And then there' ; d be bookshops. There were a lot of bookshops in that area too. It was, it was kind of an interesting place. And then it was close to Hyde Park, which was, which was within walking distance for us. And that was, just walking around the neighborhood was enjoyable. So, so actually I enjoyed living on the South Side. Anna Takada: Were there, so I know at the time there were a number of Japanese American families in that area. Merry Oya: Well, in fact, in fact, a lot of, many other Japanese Americans were living farther north, which was around the 45th. I think they were on 45th, 47th Street area. And in fact, I, somebody told me predominantly the Japanese were in that area. Anna Takada: Did you know any, anyone coming to Chicago, any friends from camp or school? Merry Oya: No, not... No, because I think most of the, most of the people I knew, they came out about the same time as I did. So, so I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t know anybody that came later than, than we did. Anna Takada: Mhmm. But did you have, did you have friends that you had known prior to moving to Chicago? Merry Oya: From camp? Anna Takada: Yeah. Merry Oya: No. Well, after, after I left camp, I lost, I lost touch with some of the people. And then the one that I was close to, we were still corresponding after we separated. But then along the way, somehow either they passed away or I lost track of them. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, do you, so you mentioned where kind of Japanese were settling from camp in Chicago. Merry Oya: Mhmm. Anna Takada: Do you remember any Japanese owned businesses or-- Merry Oya: Well, on the South Side there was a, there was a Japanese market. And, I can' ; t, I can' ; t remember all the, the South Side, but on the North Side there were more Japanese stores and markets and shops for other things. Anna Takada: Do you, would you happen to remember the names of any of those? Merry Oya: The South Side ones? Anna Takada: Either ones. Merry Oya: Of any place? Anna Takada: Yeah. Or ones that you maybe went to for-- Merry Oya: Well, on the North Side, you know the Toguri stores were there. They were there. And then they had the Star Market, which was a very popular grocery s-- because they carried so many of the Japanese products. And I, and I remember there was a gift shop on, I can' ; t remem-- but I don' ; t rem-- I don' ; t remember the name of the store. But I know close to Star Market, there was another market across the street too. And, and if you go farther north, there were several Japanese markets too. In, in fact, I think that we had quite a few Japanese food markets, which was convenient for people that wanted Japanese products. And, and then, there were a lot of beauty shops too opened up, opened up. Anna Takada: On the North Side? Merry Oya: Mm-hmm, on the North Side. Anna Takada: And so, I, I know there was a big urban renewal project, and I think that was around the start of the ' ; 60s, because I think that' ; s part of the reason why the Chicago Buddhist Church moved. Merry Oya: Moved? Moved from south to the north, you mean? Anna Takada: So, would you have moved? Do you remember that at all or-- Merry Oya: No. Anna Takada: Okay. So I, I wonder if maybe you moved to the North Side before all of that. Where, where on the North Side did you move to? Merry Oya: We moved to, close to Wrigley Field. Well, I, I think, I think by then many of the Japanese families who were living, living on the South Side in the 43rd area, they, I think most of them had moved out of that area. Anna Takada: Do you know why? Merry Oya: Well, it could be partially because, I' ; m just guessing that the blacks just started moving in there, that area, but also I think the Japanese wanted to, wanted to move farther north rather than going farther south. Anna Takada: Was that beca--because there was more things going on up north as opposed to down south or, or closer to the, the heart of the city, or-- Merry Oya: Well, I think it' ; s partly because more Japanese stores, you know shops were being opened up on the North Side. Anna Takada: And-- Merry Oya: If you wanted to go to a restaurant, they were on the North Side. And as I said, all those grocery stores that opened up. And, and, of course, Toguri' ; s was the big store on the North Side. Anna Takada: Can you describe what Toguri' ; s was like in, in those earlier days? Merry Oya: Well, it was a general merchandise place and, and they sold Japanese items, you know, dishware, books, kimonos. I think if you wanted to find anything, a Japanese product, you, you went, you first went to Toguri' ; s to see if they had it. And if they didn' ; t, I think they would make arrangements to order them for you. Anna Takada: And where was it located? Merry Oya: At Belmont and Clark Street. Anna Takada: How, how big was the store itself? Merry Oya: Oh, you' ; ve never been there? Anna Takada: I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t realize that that was the same space. Merry Oya: Oh it was a huge, it was a huge place and ' ; cause they had a upstairs too. Well, you know they recently sold that building. Mhmm. Anna Takada: So there, it was a two story then, it had two floors. Merry Oya: I think so. Yeah mhmm. Anna Takada: So we have just a few minutes left, but-- Merry Oya: Oh, they also had that reputation of the Iva Toguri. Do you, you' ; ve heard about that one? Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit more about it? Merry Oya: Toguri' ; s, let' ; s see, well she was a, she was in Japan. And I think she was condemned as a traitor because she was broadcasting for the Japanese during the war. And but then when she came here, and I think she had a trial, I think? I think she did spend some time in prison, but not long, but... Anna Takada: Was that something that folks in Chicago really, everyone knew about it? Merry Oya: Well, yeah, yeah. Everybody knew about it eventually because it came out in the papers, you know not, not only local papers and then also on the news, you know, radio news. And then also because Bill, Bill Kurtis, do you know the news, news reporter? He, I guess he took an interest in Iva' ; s situation too so, because he helped, he helped her a lot. Anna Takada: Just a, a couple of final questions. Well, first I guess, how long was you, how long were you and your family near Wrigleyville or Wrigley Field on the North Side? Merry Oya: How long? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Merry Oya: Oh, long, a long time, pretty long I would say because that was our main home for a long time, maybe fift--, 15 years. Anna Takada: Had the, during your time there, had the neighborhood changed at all? Merry Oya: Oh, definitely. In fact, when we were, after we moved, I said we shouldn' ; t have moved out of there because the real estate went up sky high. (laughs) Anna Takada: Mhmm. Yeah even thinking about it today. Merry Oya: Yeah, yeah well, even at that time, right, right after we moved out, we, we were, we saw all these people not only moving into the area but, because of the Cubs, the Wrigley Field, and you know so... But then, so we moved from that area into the Ravenswood area. Anna Takada: And is that where you still live? Merry Oya: Yeah, it' ; s on, I' ; m still there. My mother passed away. Anna Takada: So, if you were just describing... Well, actually first, have you ever, or had you ever considered moving back to the West Coast after you were in Chicago? Merry Oya: Well, not really. Because, because I think mostly because my mother was still with me, and I have, I have, two nieces in Seattle yet. And I know one of them is always encouraging me to move to Seattle and she' ; s telling me how nice it is and how nice, scenic it is and blah, blah, blah, blah. (laughs) And I, I actually, I, I would love to be either living out there, but I' ; m, I' ; m thinking you know since I' ; m at, I' ; m, I' ; m thinking I' ; m at that age, I don' ; t be making too much, too drastic of a change. And I have friends here, and I still have one nephew that' ; s here. So, that idea has kind of gone out of my mind now, but I, I did that one time think. I thought after my mother passed away, I might move out there. But, oh and another thing is I had two good friends at Seattle. They were former classmates of mine and they passed away. So, that was another reason. Although I would love to see my you know nieces there, but you know, the situation kind of changed. Anna Takada: And are you, are you happy to be living in Chicago and-- Merry Oya: Well, I' ; m, I' ; m contented. I' ; m contented. I think I' ; ve had a pretty good, you know life. And I still have friends here and I, I still keep in touch with my old boss who I worked for, for many years. Anna Takada: And, and which job was that? Merry Oya: Oh, I worked at a law firm. And he' ; s retired too, so... But he, he s-- he still sends me fruits at Christmas time, so he still, I know he still remembers me. Anna Takada: And, when you think about the, the Japanese American community in Chicago kind of around those earlier resettlement days, how, how does that compare to what it kind of looks like today? Merry Oya: How it was then and now? Anna Takada: Yeah. What' ; s changed? Merry Oya: Oh, I, I think it' ; s changed in the sense that... I, I think the, the, the climate of the public has changed I think. You know we have a lot of, currently we have a lot of riots and crime, especially in Chicago. And we have so much disturbance it just seems, and have a lot of unhappy people. And the, and it, and politics is still up and down, up and down. And I just think that things are not really that, going that well in Chicago. Anna Takada: And how does that compare to, to what it was like when you first moved here? Merry Oya: Well I think, I wouldn' ; t, I wouldn' ; t say it was quiet or anything, but I don' ; t think it was so, obviously, well... Right now I think of Chicago as kind of crime, crime-ridden because of all the crimes that have been committed and all the, the distraction with the, with the police and the, the blacks. Just seems like we haven' ; t been able to get along altogether as before. Yeah I think there' ; s like, it' ; s like, it' ; s like there' ; s just disturbance all the time in the city. Anna Takada: And, to get a bit more specific, how do you think the, the Japanese American community has changed with time? Merry Oya: Well I, I don' ; t th--, I, I don' ; t think there really is a Japanese American community now. Yeah it' ; s not, it' ; s not like before when there were a lot of Japanese here originally, because I think we, I see more of the younger people are, are integrating more into other nationalities and other activities. It' ; s not, it' ; s not all Japanese activities now. And so, so it seems there' ; s more opportunity for integration among all the people, even though they may not be you know agreeing with each other. But I, I think the, the setup from the days when we were younger and the old days, the way these things are, it' ; s so entirely different. I, I think, I think eventually the Japanese American community may not be here much longer as a community I mean. I think that, I think it' ; s good that the younger people are you know integrating more into different, different areas and you know mixing, mixing it up, so to speak. Anna Takada: One thing that I, I like to ask folks as we wrap up is if you could leave any kind of message or legacy just with future generations or, or children, if you have any, just leave a kind of message or legacy behind, what would you want that to be? Merry Oya: Well, I think I, I would still like to see, remember that there were Japanese here and that the Japanese did great things not, not only for the city but for the country because, because the war you know that took the lives of so many of our people. And they, and they became heroes and they still were not acknowledged even for all efforts that they put in. But now they' ; re lately been recognizing or acknowledging them more. But, but and then the fact that we went, they put us into camps this, all this evacuation, I think all that has to still be, that still has to be remembered as part of a history that people should know that those things happened, and if you don' ; t talk about it or know about it. But I, I think those are, to me, are important things that are all part of Chicago and people should know that. Anna Takada: And w-why do you think, why is that something that' ; s important for people to know? Merry Oya: Well, there are so many other things happening that I, I don' ; t think, peopl-- especially people--, especially the, the, the younger crowd, don' ; t seem to know-- Well, I, I think this younger crowd now, they' ; re not so prejudiced either. So they, they may not think that this evacuation and all that war thing is all past now. So, you know they just want to think of the future. But I think those, those other things that, that the Japanese contributed or have gone through, they' ; re a more important part of his--, they' ; re part history of Chicago too, so... Anna Takada: Mhmm. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to, to speak with me. Merry Oya: Well-- Anna Takada: Are there, are there any, before we totally wrap up, are there any final thoughts or anything you' ; d like to add or anything that I might have missed in the conversation that you' ; d like to share? Merry Oya: No, not really. Well, you know a lot of that, I' ; m sorry I couldn' ; t help you more, but my memory isn' ; t as good because, because it was such a long time ago when it happened. And, and as I said, I do, I do have things written at home that I don' ; t want to forget. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And you did a great job. Your memory is you know, far better than a lot of people so... Merry Oya: Well, I don' ; t know about that. But anyway-- Anna Takada: Thank you so much. Merry Oya: I' ; m glad to help if that, if that did anything. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OyaMerry20181005.xml OyaMerry20181005.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
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Title
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Oya, Merry (10/5/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Merry Oya, a nisei born in Montana in 1924, spent her early childhood in the railroad town of Whitefish before moving to Seattle, WA and later to Portland, OR. She shares memories from her childhood, including the early death of her father and the many jobs her mother pursued in order to provide for her three children. She also recounts the experiences of forced removal first to the Portland Assembly Center, then Tule Lake, and finally Minidoka. With encouragement from friends who had already resettled in Chicago, Merry's mother moved the family from Minidoka to Chicago as quickly as possible, settling initially on the South Side. Merry describes the challenges of cramped housing conditions and discrimination, but also assistance assistance received from the Chicago Resettlers Committee and her mother's success as a seamstress in the Chicago garment industry.The family eventually moved to Chicago's North Side, first near Wrigley Field and later in the Ravenswood neighborhood. Particularly notable are her memories of helping her mother, an issei with limited English abilities, learn to navigate the public transit system in their new city, and her memories of kind neighbors who stored the family's furniture during the war. At the end of the interview, Merry expresses her desire for young people to remember the history of incarceration but also to learn about the contributions Japanese Americans have made to the city of Chicago.
Date
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2018-10-05
Format
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
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Dublin Core
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ozaki, Brian
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/7/2017 Ozaki, Brian (11/7/2017) 1:10:22 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Ozaki, Brian Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307904661 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307904661?h=192c814e77" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you just state your full name? Brian Ozaki: 00:00:02 Brian Kenshi Ozaki. AT: 00:00:05 And where and when were you born? BO: 00:00:07 I was born in Chicago in 1973 in August. I was born at, uh Weiss memorial in Uptown. AT: 00:00:15 Um, and I guess just start, um, can you talk a little bit about your parents, their background, where they' ; re from? BO: 00:00:34 My parents, uh, were not born in Chicago. My dad and his family were from Seattle and my mom and her family are from southern California. AT: 00:00:48 Where in Southern California? BO: 00:00:51 I want to say it was around Gardena, I think it was. That' ; s pretty much where her grandmother and grandfather lived, I want to say before the war and after the war, when they moved back. They were in Chicago for a period of time after the war, but then, uh, they ended up going back to Gardena area probably around ' ; 70, between ' ; 76 and ' ; 79 I think, cause they lived with us for a short period of time. AT: 00:01:26 And uh, you' ; re Yonsei, right? BO: 00:01:30 I am a Yonsei on my mom' ; s side. I' ; m a Sansei on my dad' ; s side. AT: 00:01:38 Um, do you know anything about your families' ; arrivals to the U.S on either side? If not, that' ; s okay. BO: 00:01:50 Yeah. My, well, my mom' ; s, um, they were here for a long time. Um, they were Kibeis. I don' ; t know exactly what year, I want to say it was-- It was the early teens, I think. Um, and they were Kibeis, so they went back to Japan, got schooled and then that' ; s where my grandparents met and they got married and they came back. As for my dad, his side. I don' ; t remember exactly when they came. Yeah. AT: 00:02:36 And um, so it would have been your dad' ; s parents who came to the U.S? BO: 00:02:45 Yes. AT: 00:02:47 And, he was born in Seattle? BO: 00:02:48 He was born in Seattle. He was the 11th of 11 children. Yeah. AT: 00:02:55 And how about your mom? BO: 00:02:55 My mom was the first of three. Um, her youngest sister was born in camp and her younger brother was just a baby, I believe. AT: 00:03:12 And can you tell me about what you know of your parents' ; upbringings and their experiences during the war? BO: 00:03:20 They had very different upbringings during the war. They were both, both sides of my parents were poor. Um, you know, they didn' ; t own businesses when they were growing up. They didn' ; t--on my mom' ; s side, they were farmers. On my dad' ; s side, I remember, uh, we took the, we did the Minidoka pilgrimage in 2015 and so he showed me where he grew up and right where, Uwajimaya market is on Jackson and sixth. It' ; s now the parking lot for Uwajimaya market. But it used to be like a shoyu factory with uh, boarding rooms above and my grandparents managed that boarding rooms. So, um, they just, they never had any money. And so everything they did, they just, I dunno. They just worked hard for and so, um-- AT: 00:04:27 And when were your parents born? BO: 00:04:30 My dad was born in ' ; 32. My mom was born in ' ; 38. AT: 00:04:38 Um, and then with both families, uh, what happened when the war broke out? BO: 00:04:51 My mom has, my mom looks at it very differently. So to her, there' ; s parts of her past that she doesn' ; t remember and she doesn' ; t know because she says that as long as she was with her mom, she was okay. But she had two parents. And her dad was separated from them right after the executive order, right before they were going to camps, they were separated. So he was sent to Santa Fe. Um, my mom and her mom and her brother, they were sent to Gila River, Crystal City and then find it finally ended up in Tule Lake. Um, and they didn' ; t see, my mom didn' ; t see her dad until after they were released from camp. Uh, but they had nowhere to go. So they were one of the last ones at camp. Um, my dad, he was very bitter about what happened. Um, you know, he had a lot of older siblings since he was the last of 11, but he, you know, they didn' ; t have a lot of money. They were, you know, some of his siblings were sick. One of them spent the entire camp time in a sanatorium. Is that correct? Because she had TB the entire time, and one of his other brothers also had TB, but he bounced from-- he was a no-no boy, so he bounced around and he ended up at Tule Lake after being in a medical hospital or something. And then I don' ; t know exactly how he felt leading up to the camp. I just know that in the camp he was very bitter about it. AT: 00:07:01 And he went to Minidoka? BO: 00:07:08 Mmhmm. That was the only camp they were in. AT: 00:07:12 Um, have either of your parents shared any stories or memories about camp with you? BO: 00:07:27 Uh, willfully? No. Uh, my mom, her answer to everything is, I was just too young or, you know, I was with my mom, so I was happy. My dad, you know, it took a lot, it took many years for me to get anything out of him. And, um, he finally was able to tell me little things here and there. He' ; d tell me stories about people and friends that he had and friends that, um, he had going through camp and stuff about his brothers and he would tell me about the hardships of camp, you know, uh, all the dust that would come into the barracks. Uh, and they had a--really big families and they, they had a barrack with I think, two families. But I mean, they were just, it was-- 11, 12, I mean 13 with the parents. Right. So, I mean it' ; s, they had a lot of kids, a lot of people in that family. AT: 00:08:37 And they' ; re sharing it with another family? BO: 00:08:40 I believe so. AT: 00:08:44 Um, so you' ; ve gotten a little tidbits it sounds like. BO: 00:08:51 Yeah. And when we did the pilgrimage, you know, he was a lot older in life when we did that, but he could remember a lot of that stuff. He was always really good about remembering his history better than some of the stuff that' ; s happened more recently in his life. So he had, he had a lot to, to kind of reminisce about, you know, there' ; s a lot more going on in his head that he was actually verbalizing. So-- AT: 00:09:23 Can you tell me about what the process has been like for you, learning about the camp experience and your families history? BO: 00:09:38 Um- AT: 00:09:39 Did you, when you were growing up, did you know about the camps? BO: 00:09:43 I didn' ; t. Um, you know, I heard about the Japanese community. I grew up with the Japanese community. Um, you know, and I heard about stuff in Chicago, but anything in camp I really didn' ; t know about. Um, I heard about, my dad used to always brag about his older brother who was in the M.I.S (Military Intelligence Service) and he would always brag about him all the time and uh, about his involvement in the M.I.S (Military Intelligence Service) and I want to say he was in World War II, Korea and Vietnam. He was a, a, career serviceman and um, yeah, I don' ; t know. AT: 00:10:39 What do you know about your, your family, your mom' ; s family' ; s and your dad' ; s family' ; s experiences? In the camp? BO: 00:10:54 My mom--my dad talked about it more so I knew that they went to Seabrook farms in New Jersey and he was there for only a couple of years. But when he would tell stories about his time in New Jersey, it just seemed as though he lived there for decades. And the friends that he made in that short amount of time, I want to say he was only there maybe two years. He may have been there only less than two years, but it' ; s like the friends that he' ; s made there, he would still talk to them probably up until about two, three years ago. So, I mean, they were like lasting friends to him and he would go out to New Jersey and have reunions with them. And then, you know, everybody started to slowly pass on, lose communication or weren' ; t able to communicate anymore. So through my dad' ; s side, I always kind of knew his travelings. Um, maybe not all the detail, but some of the fun detail, you know, like breaking into warehouses, just causing a lot of mischief, stuff like that out in New Jersey. And then coming back, coming to Chicago, um, to do work here. AT: 00:12:19 And um, do you know if his family got, were they a part of the like early leave process or do you know how long they were in Minidoka? BO: 00:12:28 They left, I thought in August of, around August. So I think they were one of the last ones to leave their camp. I think Minidoka closed around August. AT: 00:12:44 And so both of your mom and your dad' ; s families went to Seabrook farms? BO: 00:12:50 I don' ; t remember a hundred percent about my mom' ; s family. Yeah. Yeah. AT: 00:12:56 Um, and was it from there that they came to Chicago? BO: 00:13:04 Yeah. AT: 00:13:07 Do you know anything about um those circumstances? Did they both come with family? BO: 00:13:15 They came with everybody. I mean everybody in their immediate family they came with. Yeah. And, um, they were here for awhile. They established businesses, uh, on my dad' ; s side. Some of the brothers, um, had businesses or you know, they, they worked for other Japanese, uh, people and their businesses. My mom' ; s side, you know, they owned, um, buildings, uh, like uh low income housing buildings for a little bit. I think the first day they worked for a factory and then they ended up working, uh, taking care of managing buildings and then they owned a couple after awhile. AT: 00:14:07 Um, where in the city? AT: 00:14:10 My mom was, uh, when she first came here, she was on the south side. And, um, and that' ; s how she became affiliated with BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago) because they were on the Southside. My dad was on the Northside, um, and he was part of the, the Northside clubs or gangs or whatever. And uh, so they were, they were rooted around Clark Division. AT: 00:14:39 How did your parents, how and when did your parents meet? BO: 00:14:45 You know, I don' ; t know. Um, I don' ; t know. AT: 00:14:58 Do you know when they married? Did they marry? BO: 00:15:00 They did. And I know it sounds terrible, but I really don' ; t even know their anniversary. I know they' ; ve been married, they were married almost 60 years. Um, does that sound right? So they must' ; ve been married in the ' ; 50s. 50- I want to say it was in the early ' ; 50s. They were married. AT: 00:15:27 Had either, um, ever shared any like stories or memories of kind of their first experiences in Chicago? BO: 00:15:40 You know, they used to talk about, um, going to dances a lot. They used to talk about, um, they used to do a lot of picnics with a lot of other JA' ; s (Japanese Americans) like in Grant Park. I mean that was like a big place where they all used to hang out. You know, they used to play ball and they used to, um, eat a lot. And it just seemed like a lot of the old pictures I' ; ve seen, they' ; re always eating at the lake front. Um, they used to go fishing a lot. They loved fishing and they' ; d go into Wisconsin, fishing. They' ; d, you know, fish around, uh, the lake front. They, they spent a lot of times outdoors. AT: 00:16:29 And at that point, uh, let' ; s see, did they get, do any schooling? Um, in Chicago, that you know of? BO: 00:16:40 My dad went to Lane and the only thing he really tells us about Lane was that at that time it was an all boys school and they swam naked. And that was like his big story. And I guess at one point they must have at one point, they must' ; ve, while he was at school, they must have made it coed cause he said the girls would try to look in on them while they were swimming. So that was like the big thing that I remember. My mom, not so much. She said she went to Waller (currently Lincoln Park High School). Um, and she, she went to Waller. She wasn' ; t supposed to work because she was supposed to help out the family, but because, you know, they didn' ; t have a lot of money, my mom wanted to work, so she lied on her application that she was of age to work. And so she started working, uh, just to help out the family and stuff. AT: 00:17:38 Do you remember what she was doing? BO: 00:17:40 She worked for a law firm, um as a secretary. Um, and I believe that was as far as she went as far as schooling was high school. And same with my dad until, I think it was after Korea. He decided to go back to school and he got his, he went to school for architecture at, uh, university of Illinois, Chicago. AT: 00:18:20 Um, and then do you have any siblings? AT: 00:18:25 I have an older sister. She' ; s four years older, AT: 00:18:29 So that would have been ' ; 69? BO: 00:18:32 She, my parents were not able to have kids, so that' ; s why my sister and I are kind of young in that spectrum of having a parent, um, who' ; s a Nisei because, you know, normally they' ; d be around mid fifties, probably or sixties. But my parents weren' ; t able to have kids, so after 10 years of trying, they went, and they were adopting a young girl from Japan and they had the paperwork signed and as soon as they were ready to finalize it, my mom found out she was pregnant with my sister. So, you know, um, yeah, that' ; s why we were, we' ; re so much younger. Everybody used to think that my parents were like my grandparents, you know, even going out to eat. They would think they were my grandparents cause they were just, they just visually looked older than us. My mom did because she always had white hair. My dad always had black hair and full of hair. So-- AT: 00:19:45 And so, it' ; s just the two of you? BO: 00:19:46 Mmhm. AT: 00:19:46 Um, and where was your family when you were born? BO: 00:19:53 Uptown? Uh, we lived on Margate. Um, I remember, I have very little memory of this place. Uh, my sister obviously being four years older, has a lot more. Um, I remember we lived in a, we lived over in the building that my grandparents owned that was over this bar. And at that time those bars were open 24/7. And in Uptown, it was just like, just homeless people and people drinking all the time. Passed out everywhere on the sidewalks. And that was my memory of Uptown. I remember running away at like three years old, going down a few blocks to the park and walking over, like people that were homeless, people that were drunk in the, in the sidewalks, just sleeping and stuff. AT: 00:20:48 Do you know which park that would have been? BO: 00:20:50 I don' ; t, uh, I remember the color of the playground equipment. I remember the type of playground equipment that was there. I remember where I was hiding. But other than that, I don' ; t remember what park that was. AT: 00:21:07 How long was your family there? BO: 00:21:10 My family was there a long time. I left Uptown when I was three. Um, you know, they, my parents were there for over 20 years, I would think ; um, owning and managing several buildings around Uptown, Lincoln Park. So I would think, uh, I would think around 20 years maybe. I know my dad had enough after getting mugged several times and he was just like, I had enough of this life. So he' ; s like, I just want to move somewhere else. So-- AT: 00:21:51 And where did you go? BO: 00:21:52 To Lincolnwood. Um, you know, back then, you know, you buy the house, it was like $60,000 for post-war, a home, you know, kind of where all the homes sort of looked similar. And, uh, he had to work. I remember him moonlighting all the time. He never just worked one job. He always worked two or three jobs, um, in the architectural field, uh, for different architectural firms. Um, so my sister and I didn' ; t have to live in Uptown anymore because my dad just really could not stand Uptown. AT: 00:22:34 And where, so you said you have some memories of Uptown. Does that mean most of your memories are of this Lincolnwood area? BO: 00:22:43 It is, uh yeah. I mean, I remember going to, you know my doctor' ; s was in Uptown at the, at the big white bank building on Lawrence and Broadway. Um, and you know, my mom' ; s church is in Uptown on, on Leland and Racine. So I mean, I remember always going to Uptown even after moving to Lincolnwood. It' ; s like I spent a lot of time in Uptown because that' ; s kind of like where my mom' ; s roots were. And like her friends or her professional businesses that she would go to were, so I did spend a lot of time there. I just didn' ; t live there. AT: 00:23:25 Oh. How would you describe Uptown in those days when you would visit a lot? What was it like as a neighborhood? Was it still?-- BO: 00:23:37 It was dirty. It was, um, you know, it--it--to me it didn' ; t feel like the parts that I was going to didn' ; t really change until maybe the early two thousands. I mean, I' ; m sure it got, it was getting better in those times, but I didn' ; t notice it, you know, cause I remember going to the revere, I remember going to the Aragon, I remember these places. Um, but it was, but that was much later in my life or, you know, when I was a later teen. But um, it was always kind of a place where my dad would always tell me, you know, don' ; t go there by yourself. Stay with us. Don' ; t walk around. Um, and so we didn' ; t. The furthest that I would ever go would be like across the street. You know, when we were at BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago), there was a like a five and dime store right across the street. And you know, every time we were at Japanese school or Sunday school, we' ; d always run across the street and get candy and stuff for like a penny or whatever, 10 cents. Um, and that was my only wanderings of Uptown when I was around those areas because my dad was always like, don' ; t walk around. So I said, okay. AT: 00:25:18 And how long were you all in Lincolnwood? BO: 00:25:24 Since ' ; 76, 1976. My parents retired and they moved away and I bought their house. So I bought their house and now my family' ; s living there. AT: 00:25:41 Can you tell me about what it was like growing up in Lincolnwood? BO: 00:25:47 It' ; s pretty diverse. Diverse in a sense where, I saw many different ethnicities. It was still predominantly Jewish, um, at that time. And I had a lot of Jewish friends. I went to a lot of Bar Mitvahs and Bat Mitzvahs and so much so that when I was 13, I thought I was going to have one. Um, but then realizing that I wasn' ; t, and I had, um, I had a lot of Korean friends. I can only remember a small handful of Japanese families in Lincolnwood. I mean, maybe three or four outside of my family. Um. AT: 00:26:36 What school did you go to? BO: 00:26:38 Lincoln Hall. Uh, Todd Hall, Rutledge Hall, and Lincoln Hall. Those are the three, um, great schools on the campus in Lincolnwood. AT: 00:26:52 And, um, and then what about high school? BO: 00:26:56 I went to Niles West. Very diverse, very segregated, in its' ; diversity. Everybody kinda hung out with their own, with their own nationalities. And, uh, that' ; s what I remember about it. Yeah. AT: 00:27:18 So Niles West, were you in the district or -- BO: 00:27:23 Yeah, yeah. AT: 00:27:24 And that you would commute to school every day? BO: 00:27:31 I would take the bus and then I would go with friends when they were able to drive. So that' ; s how I' ; d get to school. Yeah. AT: 00:27:42 And I want to ask you too about, um, you had mentioned that your mom was a member of BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago), that you grew up going to Japanese school. BO: 00:27:51 Yeah. AT: 00:27:51 Um, so can you tell me about that and maybe other ways that you were kind of connected to Japanese heritage growing up? BO: 00:28:00 You know, I was, without knowing, I was actually, I was actually exposed to a lot of Japanese culture. I just didn' ; t know it, you know, my sister danced with Shiyu Kai For many, many years. And so my mom was very involved with the Uchimoto' ; s who owned Shiyu Kai and she' ; d always volunteer doing stuff like backdrops and helping out. And I' ; d always go with them to see my sister practice and stuff. And my dad would always volunteer when they did shows. So I was always, always around when they were doing stuff. And so that was like a big part of the culture that I didn' ; t know I was exposed to. Um, I did boy scouts at BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago). Uh, I went to Japanese school at BTC and I did Sunday school probably up until I was 13 at BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago). Uh, so I was around a lot of culture. I just, I think I was just so aloof to it. I just never knew it. I just thought it was just what I' ; m supposed to do. Right. Even though, ' ; cause I think about it now, I, I never think about this stuff, but as I' ; m thinking about it now, I had a lot of Korean friends at school, a lot of Jewish friends, just a lot of different friends of different ethnic backgrounds. But in the evenings or on the weekends, we always hung out with my parents' ; Japanese friends, and I never hung out with my school friends on the weekends when I was younger, it was always my family' ; s friends. So it' ; s like I grew up with families like the Imajis and Ideis and the, ah it' ; s so many people, you know, the Okumuras and the Haritas. I just grew up with so many Japanese people of my friends of my, my parents, family and friends that I guess I was exposed to it. I just didn' ; t know it. AT: 00:30:23 Do you speak Japanese at home? BO: 00:30:25 I don' ; t. I' ; m so bad. AT: 00:30:27 When you were growing up, though? BO: 00:30:28 Nope. My mom can speak it fluently. My dad, it was like, it was real urban Japanese. I mean it was, it was terrible. So- AT: 00:30:50 So, um, and did you spend time with your grandparents at all, were they ever in Chicago? BO: 00:31:00 My, my dad' ; s side, I didn' ; t know at all. I think, you know, my grandfather on my dad' ; s side passed away way before I was born and my dad' ; s mom, she passed away in Chicago, I think because I always remember my dad talking about. Yeah, she passed away in Chicago, but it was before I was born because it was right before I was born because my dad would always talk about how his older brother who was, who was a career military serviceman, he was escorted here by the military. Like all these black vehicles came and let him out of the car, like they opened the door for him and he attended the funeral. So we never knew what my uncle did in the military, but he was somebody, um, after MIS (Military Intelligence Service), we don' ; t know what he did, but, but as for my grandparents, I don' ; t, I know they lived in our house in Lincolnwood. I just don' ; t remember them living there because we had, we had space for them. We had areas designed for them, but I don' ; t remember them living there. And I just remember always spending all my summers in California uh, at my grandparents house all summer long. AT: 00:32:27 Your mom' ; s parents? BO: 00:32:28 Yeah. AT: 00:32:29 And you said they moved back in ' ; 76? BO: 00:32:31 Somewhere around there, yeah. So I always remember that was where I spent my summers. I knew I was going to California and spending my summers there. AT: 00:32:44 You haven' ; t talked to them about World War II experiences? BO: 00:32:50 I didn' ; t know that stuff back then. My grandparents both died before I had an interest in what happened. My grandfather was a certain way. He was quiet, but he was very hard. He wa-- It was rare when I would remember him smiling and laughing and I' ; ve seen pictures of him doing that. But he was very hard and he was very quiet. So my mom said he was like that but doesn' ; t remember if it was because of his experience in camp or not. AT: 00:33:36 What about your grandma? BO: 00:33:41 She' ; s like my mom, she just marches on. Just whatever happens, happens and you just move forward. This, that' ; s just how I remember my grandma. She was just, she was-- she would laugh a lot. She would, I couldn' ; t really understand her. She spoke broken English and I, it was just very difficult for me to understand her, but, you know, I was, I' ; d sit there and I' ; d like laugh and smile at her when she would like talk to me cause I was, I mean, I didn' ; t know really how to communicate with her. Um, but yeah, that' ; s all I remember. AT: 00:34:22 Do you know, um, was there a moment or an experience that exposed you to, um, the World War II experiences in Japanese American and your family? BO: 00:34:36 Yeah, it was, it was after high school and I don' ; t know what that turning point was or where the trigger was because I was never very studious and I was never, never into education. And so I don' ; t remember this in grade school or in high school, but there was some point in my late teens where it triggered. So, and that' ; s when I started asking my parents, you know. AT: 00:35:13 Just from, uh, some type of feeling or inclination too? BO: 00:35:21 There was something that I was exposed to that made me think about it. And then I would, I was talking to my parents about it and seeing what they knew about it and then I would do a lot of my own research on it. Uh, I wasn' ; t getting much out of them. AT: 00:35:37 Well, do you remember about like how did they respond? BO: 00:35:41 They didn' ; t tell me right away and it wasn' ; t until they saw that I was being proactive in my research that they would share bits and pieces about it. Yeah. AT: 00:35:58 Did you ever talk about it with your sister or friends? BO: 00:36:03 None of my friends could relate or understood or cared. My sister, I don' ; t talk about it with her. She just doesn' ; t share that same interest. So she went on the pilgrimage with us and I think a lot of that stuff may have been a very first time for her, for a lot of things. But to be honest, yeah, it' ; s kind of sad. My sister and I are, our relationship is very superficial. So it' ; s, we' ; re not very deep. We just are very on the surface with each other. AT: 00:36:41 And what did, when you were like researching, um, were you just like going to the library or how, what was that like? BO: 00:36:52 It was the internet. I was trying to find as much information on the incarceration and where this happened and why did it happen-- You know, it like, it was, I was so aloof by it, like I didn' ; t even correlate the bombing of Pearl Harbor to the incarceration of the Japanese Americans. So it wasn' ; t real late in my, I dunno in my educated years that I just started really piecing things together and then how it was related to my family and it wasn' ; t like my grandparents, it was my parents. And then I start talking to some people and realizing that some of the people that I knew, it was their grandparents that were in there, not their families. So I was like, well, what' ; s going on? Why is, why are my parents there? And their parents weren' ; t there. And so, and you know, it just brought up a lot of other kinds of discussions with my family on why this was like that. AT: 00:38:02 If you remember, um, do you remember um some of your own like personal reactions or feelings as you' ; re kind of digging into this history? BO: 00:38:16 Shock? I think shock was most of it. Some of it was like, I can' ; t believe that my family was part of this history. Um, kind of like honor, I would say in a sense because they were part of this history but also part of this history that changed the world a little bit or changed our country a little bit. Um, so I had, I felt like I had a lot more personal investment in what happened, which I think maybe drove me a little bit more because it did happen to my immediate family. Um, so I felt as though I need to learn more about this cause I don' ; t know any of it, you know, it wasn' ; t something that my parents talked about. I mean, both of my parents, I really had to pry for any information for anything, you know, any, anything about my dad' ; s experience in the war or anything about their experience in camp, anything I really had to just dig. They, they wouldn' ; t offer that information on their own accord. AT: 00:39:47 It would be great if you could fill me in on this point you' ; re talking about now, you know, the kind of the digging in the research and asking, you know, asking your parents questions and kind of where you' ; re at today. BO: 00:40:03 I think there' ; s a lot of information out there and I feel like had I have known a little of what I know today, back then, I would' ; ve been all over my grandparents. I think. I think there' ; s a lot more in history and in my own personal family' ; s history that I don' ; t know about and I would have loved to have had that opportunity to dig further and maybe play the, play the sympathy or kid role to try to get my grandparents to talk a little bit more. Right. I mean, you know, I think it, it drives me to what is happening today and to learn more about what happened during World War II, to drive me what I' ; m doing today and to prevent something like that ever happening again. AT: 00:41:23 You might have just answered it but I might have prompted you with a question, another question. Why, why is that something that would be important to you to get those answers from your grandparents? To, to really get as much information. BO: 00:41:48 I think there' ; s a lot more to my mom' ; s family than my dad' ; s family. I mean, I heard stories from my dad' ; s family, I' ; ve heard stories of their time in camp and I' ; ve heard stories of what the living conditions were and the waiting times, going to the bathroom. And I, you know, I' ; ve heard those stories and those are very similar stories to what I' ; ve heard in my research and reading or you know, going to symposiums or, or anything. Right. It' ; s kind of similar, but my mom' ; s side is really interesting and I, I, it' ; s something I want to know because you don' ; t hear much about the DOJ (Department of Justice) camps. You don' ; t hear much about the treatment, you don' ; t hear about how they were treated. And that' ; s where my grandfather was. And I have a couple of pictures of him in those, in that camp and he just looks just physically exhausted. Like he just looks like he' ; s just beaten up, not physically, just emotionally and just beaten up. That' ; s how he looks. And so I know there' ; s so much more to that history that I would just love to know more about, you know, so I mean, I can only imagine what happened in there. You know, in my head, I equate camps like Santa Fe to be like Guantanamo, you know, so, and it' ; s interesting. I, you know, I met with some people from Anchorage on the Minidoka Pilgrimage that passed through Santa Fe, that was like one of their stopping points before going to Minidoka and they had no idea that was going on. They said we didn' ; t know any of that was there at Santa Fe. They only knew it as their passing stop before going to Minidoka. And, um, you know, I' ; d show them pictures and they were just, they recognize where the picture was taken. They just didn' ; t know that stuff was there. So, yeah. I don' ; t know if I answered your question. AT: 00:44:12 Um, you have two kids that are school-aged. As a parent, someone who is connected by family to this history. What has, what' ; s been important to you or what have you maybe done, um, to kind of teach your kids about it? If anything? BO: 00:44:51 Everything that I talk about, I talk in the open with them about this, this period of our family' ; s life. So, and I, you know, I' ; ve recently got involved with JACL (Japanese American Citizens League). I' ; ve gotten involved with other committees, with other organizations and so everything that I' ; m doing, I do it in the open where they' ; re always exposed to it. You know, my wife is very educated. She' ; s very much into, um, you know, diversity and inclusion. And so this is not something that we hide in our family. And so it' ; s always out there. We go to a lot of, we go to a lot of, um, events. We go to a lot of fundraisers. We go to a lot of just things that revolve around this subject and other subjects. So it' ; s what our interests are, are always in my kids' ; spotlight so they know what we' ; re talking about. They know what we' ; re thinking about, they know what we stand for as a family. They know what is right from wrong. And it is very important for my kids because as I watched them grow up to when I grew up, and I' ; m sure from when my parents grew up, things are extremely different in that short amount of time and their priorities are a lot different and their thought processes are a lot different. BO: 00:46:37 It' ; s not something that I feel as though I can teach them. It' ; s something that they have to learn by exposure. And so we feel as the more exposure we provide them, the more that they will understand and they' ; re going to have these memories later. Oh, I remember doing this with my parents. I remember doing this with my parents, and hopefully that sticks with them so they understand and they become more socially aware. Um, I know in a lot of different aspects, my son is socially aware and he' ; s always been a fighter for the, for the person who' ; s being picked on. He' ; s always been that way and it' ; s gotten into, gotten him into some trouble sometimes. But he does have that in him. He just has to know the battles that he needs to pick, and he' ; s very good at it. Um, my daughter' ; s really young. She, she' ; s just recently, probably in the last few years, figured out she was Japanese, you know, I mean it' ; s, she either thinks she' ; s Korean or Chinese or she thinks she' ; s Pakistani or she thinks that she' ; s Japanese. So, you know, we try to just enrich her with so much more culture. AT: 00:48:07 Do you feel like there was a moment or experience where you realized that you were Japanese, kind of similar to what your daughter is experiencing? BO: 00:48:19 You know, growing up in Lincolnwood, for the majority of my life I can see where my daughter comes from. You know, she just has a lot of friends of different cultures, different races, different cultures, different religious backgrounds. So, and she doesn' ; t discriminate. She will be friends with anybody, you know, as long as they' ; re friendly with her. Um, I didn' ; t, maybe I didn' ; t realize the importance of my Japanese background ' ; till much later where I embraced it more. I didn' ; t grow up with a lot of Japanese people, you know, in a day to day environment at school. So I really didn' ; t know. Right? And I think about these days of, you know, people making slanty eyed, you know, notions or go back to China. You know, it' ; s, I remember growing up with stuff like that, but I grew up shrugging it off. I grew up playing it off and being funny with, you know, even joking around with it with my friends is, and you know, partaking in it, you know, and I know for like, my son won' ; t take that, he won' ; t take that. He, he' ; ll speak up about that if like even his friends are doing it about him. Our daughter, I don' ; t even know if she would know what that is. To be perfectly honest. I think she' ; s so innocent. She just, she truly doesn' ; t know it. You know, my kids, they know Japanese food, they know the Japanese things that I surround them with. Um, but you know, I probably didn' ; t realize my importance of being Japanese until I was in my mid twenties, maybe. AT: 00:50:24 You had mentioned something about kendo-- BO: 00:50:28 Yeah. AT: 00:50:29 Can you tell me about that? BO: 00:50:31 You know, my sister always had Shiyu Kai growing up, so she learned traditional Japanese dance. Um, and I really didn' ; t have that, you know, things that I was interested, you know, it' ; s like when I was a kid, I loved ninjas and I have loved, you know, Samurai Sundays and you know, just the stuff that I grew up watching and being around. But, you know, I loved watching chambara movies with my dad, which was like old samurai movies. But kendo was something that-- I didn' ; t even know iaido exists, but kendo I knew of, but I just never took it because it was expensive. Um, but kendo, I took on later in my life because it has such a deep, strong connection with the Japanese culture and there' ; s so much in kendo that it provides for me outside of kendo. And it helps me understand my Japanese culture and it helps me appreciate and why I may do things or why may others may do things. Because kendo is, is, it' ; s really deep into the Japanese culture. And I was lucky enough for the dojo that I belong to is the first kendo dojo in Chicago. And it was based out of a BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago). And you know, it was Izui Sensei and he was really, he' ; s, he' ; s a very famous Sensei, but he' ; s, he' ; s passed on. BO: 00:52:38 But he believed in teaching the etiquette and the culture of kendo rather than the, uh, the tournament style of kendo. And that' ; s something that to this day, the kendo-- that dojo has been around since ' ; 69. And so to this day, it' ; s that etiquette is still being taught and I really appreciate that. When I bring that etiquette to other people that belong to other dojos, they just brush me off or say, don' ; t do that, I don' ; t like that because it' ; s, it' ; s either embarrassing or it' ; s maybe too old school, but that, that old school is my culture. That' ; s, that' ; s my heritage. That' ; s, that' ; s, that' ; s what I belong to. I mean, that' ; s my family way back then, you know? So that' ; s why, it was one of the reasons why I decided to join kendo was you know, it brought me to a lot of deep cultural roots to, to who I am. AT: 00:53:51 What are some of your hopes for your kids? And the eventual grandkids, future generations-- BO: 00:54:03 Respect. Respect is very important to me. Uh, it' ; s important that they understand respect. It' ; s important that they understand what our family or our family roots are from and who they were and their struggles. It' ; s important that they understand that not everything has to be now. It can be later. Yeah. You know, I think it' ; s important that they just know their family history. AT: 00:54:56 Why? BO: 00:54:56 You said why? I think it' ; s who they are, they just don' ; t know it. And I think it' ; s important to know why things are, whether it' ; s, you know, why a car runs or why your arm moves in a certain motion, you know, it' ; s important to know why they are the way that they are. Um, and sometimes other things are more important than what you see every day. I don' ; t know. You know, it' ; s about the family sacrifices about what it means to just persevere and move forward. Like this entire time I' ; m thinking about my, my dad' ; s dad, you know, they were poor and you know, for all these families that had persevered through this, through being incarcerated and moving forward and establishing themselves in a brand new area or a brand new line of work or whatever it is, it' ; s about perseverance. You know, my dad' ; s family didn' ; t have any money. My dad used, my grandfather used to have this car, this Ford where you would have to crank the car in the front to start it up. One day he was starting it up and sometimes when it starts up, the crank goes the opposite direction, well it broke his hand. And my dad was, uh, my grandfather was a physical worker, phys-- physical labor, and he couldn' ; t be without work. He had to supp- help support his family, but it was also a different way of thinking, right? So he' ; s like, I don' ; t have money. I can' ; t get this fixed. So he decided to just cut his hand off. BO: 00:56:53 That was his way of fixing the problem and taking care of it and getting back to work. And that' ; s the perseverance. That' ; s the sacrifice you make for the, for what you have to do. And I, and that' ; s what we try to tell our kids. You know, it' ; s not about what' ; s right in front of you. It' ; s, you' ; ve got to look at a much bigger picture. You can' ; t just figure out what' ; s, you know, five inches in front of your face. You have to just look much larger than that. And that' ; s what happened to my family. That' ; s what' ; s happening to our family now. Um, so it' ; s very important. You know what I mean by that is, you know, my family is Muslim. So I have a lot of deep roots in the past. And with the current political climate, you know, the past makes me fear for the future and I have a personal stake in that. So, you know that makes me all the more want to push further and have my kids understand what' ; s happening and they need to understand where this can put them. And so this is why they need to be aware, you know? Yeah. It' ; s just very important about-- for them to know and understand our history so it doesn' ; t affect, you know, their future. AT: 00:58:42 Um, that' ; s hard to follow [Both chuckle]. But, um, I, I am thinking of just a couple of questions that I wanted to--we should ask you, um-- So I still have to find the right words to say. Um, but one thing I wanted to ask was, um, about your experiences growing up. Um, I would say being connected to the Japanese American community in Chicago. Um, and I want to ask you, in what ways do you see the Japanese American community, community in Chicago as maybe being unique from other places or other Japanese Americans? BO: 00:59:58 Personally, I feel like it doesn' ; t exist anymore in comparison to the fifties. It, they' ; re not all clumped together anymore. They' ; re so spread out, you know, and you know, that' ; s, that' ; s, that was part of my inexperience. And part of my way of thinking was once I stopped hanging out with my parents' ; friends, because, you know, they were getting up in age and people started moving out further away from where we all were. That, where did all the Japanese community go? Where are they? They' ; re still there. They' ; re just more spread out now. You know, I, the only thing I can really compare it to is California, you know, going, uh, Gardena every year. I mean, it' ; s nothing but Japanese people, back then, I mean the whole Gardena area was Japanese stores and Japanese restaurants. Now it' ; s changed a lot today, but I mean those are Japanese communities, you know, and they were not only, you know, second or third generations, some of them are first, a lot of them are first generations too. So here that community is so spread out, you know. They' ; re parts of Chicago, parts of the northwes sur--, suburbs, part of the southwest suburbs. BO: 01:01:42 And I think that' ; s why I' ; ve, I' ; ve become more involved so I can be more around that community, you know, because they' ; re not readily at my disposal. Um, it' ; s not, you know, when you go to, you know, you hang out, people from like Tri-C (Christ Church of Chicago) or, or you know, from BTC (Buddhist Temple of Chicago) or anybody else who' ; s affiliated, you don' ; t-- you have that community. And I think I missed that because I find out from talking to so many people that have connected to so many people that I never knew. And I think now I, I' ; m really cherishing that. I' ; m really appreciating that and I wish the, the JA (Japanese American) community was more condensed in the sense where it is easily available for so much of the JA community instead of making the efforts to make a JA community. I don' ; t know if that makes sense. AT: 01:02:50 So if you were to summarize maybe your, your hopes for the future, the Japanese American community of Chicago? BO: 01:03:00 Well, it' ; s not so much of a JA community in the future. There' ; s, it' ; s JA slash other right? I mean, my kids are a part of that, you know, but my kids, I think like my kids, I don' ; t know about others, but like my kids, they associate themselves more Japanese than their American Pakistani side. So I hope they learn to embrace their culture and their American Japanese culture and create friendships and bonds with others that hopefully lasts throughout the years and follows them wherever they go. You know? And hopefully wherever they go, they seek out other JA (Japanese American) communities and they find comfort and home in those communities. AT: 01:04:12 Um, oh, so I want to ask you a question. Um, but I apologize ' ; cause I- I don' ; t know very much about your family. BO: 01:04:21 Sure. AT: 01:04:24 I don' ; t mean it to be such a superficial question, but I' ; m just, I' ; m curious because one of the biggest and main connections that people have made between the history of the World War II incarceration and contemporary issues are around anti-Muslim, anti-Arab sentiments. BO: 01:04:46 Sure. AT: 01:04:47 Um, and I' ; m just wondering about, um, you know, given the, the identities within your family, do you think how, how has that maybe had an impact on your own, like your own work, whether it' ; s volunteer or whatever, or what are your hopes for-- BO: 01:05:20 I think it drives me more. I think it drives me to unify more. I think it, it makes me get off the couch. It makes me do things that historically in my characteristic or my habits that I would not do. So it really drives me, I think. Yeah. AT: 01:06:14 Before we wrap up, uh, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? BO: 01:06:32 I don' ; t want to pass up any opportunities that may be presented to me. My natural instinct is always just to be the listener and be silent and to observe. That' ; s, that' ; s who my personality is. But I think with a lot of people, what' ; s happening in the current political times and what' ; s spilled over into a lot of racial, religious hate, that I don' ; t want to look back at this time and say, I should' ; ve done this. You know, I, what' ; s important to me is that my family knows that whatever could have been done was at least-- there was some effort. And I know my wife is very involved in many different ways and she would love to be involved more in many different ways and myself included. Um, and I want my kids to be aware. If they want to be involved, that' ; s great, but I want them to be aware. And that' ; s, that' ; s one the most important things. And I think what has happened to my parents and their parents and their siblings and their family during World War II you know, I don' ; t want that to happen to anybody else. Whether they' ; re Muslim or not, doesn' ; t matter. I don' ; t want that to happen to anybody else. And I think whatever little effort, that I can give or offer or help or lend a hand in, I' ; l ; --I' ; d like to at least say that I tried. And you know, I' ; ve put myself in that ring to try to protect my family and my wife' ; s family and anybody else that needs a voice. Um-- BO: 01:09:22 I don' ; t know. I think, uh, I think I have big hope, big hopes and dreams for my kids and my family and their families down the road to come. And I hope all these efforts and our efforts are not for nothing. And I just want them to appreciate who they are and where they came from and how they got here and what it took to get here, what it took to get to where they are, and hopefully that passes down from them to their kids and so forth. Yeah. AT: 01:10:15 Well, thank you so much again for coming in and taking the time to speak with us. BO: 01:10:17 Oh, thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzakiBrian20171107.xml OzakiBrian20171107.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Ozaki, Brian (11/7/2017)
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2017-11-07
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
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Ozaki, Mary
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/15/2017 Ozaki, Mary (9/15/2017) 0:43:33 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Ozaki, Mary Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299788345 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299788345?h=ee4e06548e" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 Now we could just start by stating your name and your, your hometown. Mary Ozaki: 00:08 Mary Ozaki from Los Angeles, California. AT: 00:14 And um, when were you born? MO: 00:16 August 11th, 38' ; . 1938. So that makes me 79 now and about three or four when we entered the camp. AT: 00:28 Do you remember any, anything about LA before? MO: 00:32 No, my parents were farmers El Centro, California and um, which is, uh, near San Diego I guess, but more east. And AT: 00:48 What kind of farm did they have? MO: 00:53 I really don' ; t know. Grow lettuce, vegetables I guess. Yeah. AT: 00:58 And when did they come to the U.S.? MO: 01:02 Well, actually they' ; re both born in America, my mother in LA and my father in Seattle. And uh, at an early age were sent back to Japan or at least my father, he and his sister were sent to Japan for ah education. And my mother and his parents, my mother and her parents went back to Japan after they were here a few, a few years doing farming and uh, I guess they made enough money to go back to Japan. So, um, they got married in Japan and they came here to LA. So that' ; s the beginning. AT: 01:53 And so when, when were they born? MO: 01:56 Um, my father, 1909. And my mother in 1915, I believe. AT: 02:04 And do you have any idea when their parents came to the U.S.? MO: 02:12 Uh, no I don' ; t have that. AT: 02:18 Um, so when, when the war broke out from, well, where did your family go from LA? MO: 02:28 From LA we went to Tule Lake. And then from there we went to ah Gila River, Crystal City, uh I' ; m not sure in which order that is. And um, and we were in camp for a very long time. I think one of the last ones because my father didn' ; t want to go back to California. So, um, we were told that for people who didn' ; t have a place to go to uh, we can go to Seabrook Farm, New Jersey where they have work there and uh, they have housing. It looked like another camp area because of barrack type buildings. So I' ; m not sure how long we were there. Um, but, uh, my, both my parents walked over to the, uh, ah farm of the frozen food section everyday. I used to, I had, I came down with pneumonia, so I was in the hospital for 10 days and in the morning I would watch them go past the hospital to go to, uh, the work, to the factory. And uh AT: 03:55 That was in Seabrook Farm? MO: 04:01 Seabrook Farm, AT: 04:01 New Jersey MO: 04:01 New Jersey. And we still didn' ; t know what to do or where to go, but after we found out that we had a cousin in Chicago, so we, uh, my father wrote to them and see if we can go there and they happen to have a huge apartment building and they said they would welcome us. So I believe it was 1949 that we came to Chicago and we lived in Chicago all these years. AT: 04:47 Do you have any siblings? MO: 04:47 I have a brother, my brother is two years younger and my sister was born in Chicago. She' ; s 13 years younger than me, but she recently passed away. So my brother lives in Florida and I live in Midwest. AT: 05:07 Where, where was your brother born? MO: 05:07 Uh he was born in El Centro, I was born in LA. He in El Centro or Imperial Valley. AT: 05:18 And so where are your, of course, very young when your family was sent to camp, what were your earliest memories of MO: 05:33 I have a little bit of a memory in camp, but I don' ; t know which one. My mother was ah, she worked in the mess hall, so uh probably, we were with her most of the time because two of us were just too young to be out in the street. And uh, my father was never with us. He was sent to another camp. All men, all men camp in New Mexico, I believe. So he was not with us. I don' ; t know why he wasn' ; t there. I never found out. And uh, and I can' ; t remember. He was with us in New Jersey, but during camp days, I don' ; t think we, he was with us. AT: 06:29 Was he active in any churches or temples? MO: 06:32 No, that' ; s why it' ; s puzzling to me because he was a quiet farmer, you know, kept to himself. He wasn' ; t an activist or agitator as far as I know. AT: 06:45 Because from what I understand and what I' ; ve heard from folks, people' ; s whose family' ; s were um, I know someone who was even gave money to a, um dojo, like aikido, but they were, he was sent to Crystal City. MO: 07:09 I' ; m not aware. I don' ; t know. It could be that he and he wanted to go back to Japan maybe at one time, but he changed his mind, but I don' ; t know why that would make him go there. AT: 07:26 And we where in Japan. Did your parents go? Where they MO: 07:31 Kagoshima, they' ; re both from Kagoshima. AT: 07:43 And so as far as you know, you, you and your family. It was between Tule Lake, Gila River and Crystal City? MO: 07:53 Yes. AT: 07:54 So those three? MO: 07:56 In Crystal City, we met other Japanese from Peru. There were a lot of people from there. So we met some of them and I' ; m still in touch with some of the people there yeah. AT: 08:12 So do you have memories of Crystal City, of meeting people? MO: 08:18 Not too much really. I don' ; t know why I told remember. AT: 08:26 Maybe just family friends you' ; ve kept in touch with since? MO: 08:30 Yeah. But yeah, um, it' ; s very vague and the rest is all what people told me or. But I have no memory of my own what I was doing and at some point I did, I do remember playing with my brother. I mean we always were together. But other than that, and we must have gone to school. I don' ; t even remember that. AT: 09:07 The. the things that you did learn about camp, how did that, how did that work? Did your family talk about it or did you MO: 09:17 No, my parents never talked about it, so, um, they passed away a good 20, 25, 30 years ago. So I, I, at that time, I guess I wasn' ; t really interested in it so I couldn' ; t ask them anything. And so I did send in for the, uh, history, uh, of us, uh, you know, to the archives in Washington, DC. So, and I have no relatives or friends that can tell me what we did over there. But, uh, so I' ; m sorry, I don' ; t have too much information. AT: 10:07 What, what inspired you to do some of that research and going to the archives? MO: 10:13 Well, since I, my parents never told me anything, I was curious, you know, what really happened and I was really surprised that we all went quietly without, you know, uh, without having any trouble with it just all went together. AT: 10:40 Well, about how old were you when you started? MO: 10:43 I think, uh, over three. If the war started in 1942. AT: 10:50 I mean, I' ; m sorry when you were, when you started researching, and trying to figure out MO: 10:56 Oh! I would say 15, 20 years ago after my parents passed away. AT: 11:11 So did you, forgive me, I' ; m just trying to get a better sense of, you know, what it was like to have that happen at such a young age when you don' ; t necessarily have the memories, I mean, you were, you were aware that you were in camp in your childhood? MO: 11:35 Well, I don' ; t know if I was aware that I was in camp. All I know is that I was with my mother and my brother, so, you know, wherever you go and you don' ; t think anything of it. AT: 11:55 Like, if people asked you once, like when you left camp and let' ; s say you were in New Jersey and people asked where you were from or anything like that? MO: 12:12 People did ask, but not, not, not too much in detail. When we came to Chicago at first, uh, I did notice a little bit of a prejudice, but of course I went to Oakland Wall Grammar School where there were a lot of Japanese children there. So we played together. But, uh, going outside of that, then you would feel the difference. And growing up as a teenager, um, there was a CNAA for ah teenagers getting involved in athletics. You know, so I played basketball. My brother also did that. And so we sorta, well, we stuck together and that' ; s where I met my husband and got married. AT: 13:18 And so you must have been, you were 10 or 11 when you came to Chicago? MO: 13:26 About nine or so, yeah nine. AT: 13:31 Where did your family. Which neighborhood did your family? MO: 13:35 On the South Side. We stayed on ah, that' ; s where we, we stayed in that apartment building until 1951 when my sister was born. So we moved to the North Side, where my parents bought a, uh, a roomy house type of building. So my mom says my mother had my sister, she couldn' ; t go out to work. And so, uh, she, she ran this building and my father went out to work. AT: 14:12 Where was that building? MO: 14:14 On Elm Street near Clark and Division. AT: 14:22 As far as you know, um, was that, is that difficult for your parents to buy a building or find a? MO: 14:32 No, they didn' ; t have any money, but they, I guess they scraped enough money to get, get into this venture. I guess they felt as since she cannot go out to work. In the summertime, my mom was able to work so that I could, you know, watch the house, I guess. I' ; m not so sure. Maybe before my sister came, she did both work at, uh, at Curtis Candy Company and uh, since um, my sister was born then they got into this roomy house type of business because she can' ; t work anymore. So uh AT: 15:25 And what was your father doing? MO: 15:25 He was working, um, Curtis Candy at first and then, uh, American Carbon Paper Company for the longest time until he got sick and he could no longer work. So my father was not that healthy. So my mom, my mom coming to America, didn' ; t know English. I thought it was kinda odd that she was totally dependent on my, uh, my father, she never went shopping. She just stayed home on the farm. And then coming to Chicago she learned a little English, well enough to run a rooming house. And uh, so she, I thought it was strange that she got stronger, strong, stronger as a person. So that' ; s basically my life and nothing really exciting. AT: 16:32 What do you, what do you remember about the boarding house? Did you spend a lot of time there? MO: 16:39 Yes, my teenage years. I spent my life there and um, I didn' ; t do much. I didn' ; t help help her out or anything. She did everything, changing linens and cleaning the building and taking care of the tenants. So she did, she did all that and after that she got into a bigger building from there. So like I said, she' ; s the one that was ah bold enough or had the gumption to get into a new venture like that. And my father just went out to work. AT: 17:23 Where was the new building? MO: 17:25 Montrose, Montrose near Clarendon, Clarendon Road is it? It' ; s near the lake. And after that they bought a property on a Racine near a Diversey. And that' ; s it. AT: 17:47 When you, when your family to, when you made that move to the North Side, did you switch schools? MO: 17:55 Yes, I went to Hyde Park for just one semester or one year. And then, uh, the rest of my time at Waller High School on the North Side. AT: 18:04 And what, what were those schools like? MO: 18:13 Well, I was, um, I didn' ; t participate in anything. I would just go to work and come back. I mean, go to a school and just come back and I wasn' ; t in any extracurricular activities where I would stay. So I just went to school, came back and when I was old enough to get a part time job, then I did go to to work. AT: 18:48 Where was your first part-time job? MO: 18:50 A place called the Massachusetts Bonding, doing typing work. AT: 18:59 How old were you? MO: 19:01 I was still in high school then. AT: 19:03 Was that pretty typical? For a high school student? MO: 19:06 I don' ; t know. I don' ; t think I was supposed to be working, but I was working. I won' ; t go into detail about that. AT: 19:19 What about the schools in the areas you were in? Did you know other Japanese American kids? MO: 19:24 Yeah. Well, our high school, there were a lot of Japanese there. So basically I was with Japanese people. Even to this day I have many Japanese friends and uh, I guess I just stick with them maybe for comfort. I, I' ; m not sure. AT: 19:57 And was your family, I know you said you weren' ; t involved in any extracurriculars that um, did your family, were they involved in any um temples or churches or anything? MO: 20:07 No, but I did, go ever since I came to Chicago, I did go to a Buddhist temple in Chicago, which was on the South Side because my friends went there. So that' ; s the reason why I went. And to this day I' ; m a member on the same temple. So. AT: 20:32 And the, where, where did you go from from Waller High School? MO: 20:43 Uh, I got married at the age of 21. My kids didn' ; t come for 10 years. And uh. AT: 20:52 Where were you living at that time? MO: 20:59 When we first got married, I lived on Racine. My mother, my parents' ; building, we help them manage the building. Uh, I would say for 10 years. And then, um, since I was pregnant with my daughter, uh, we moved to a different building. We bought a building on Margate Terrace, that' ; s near Lawrence and ah Marine Drive. So we were there for a few years and then then we bought a house in Lincolnwood. My husband just didn' ; t want to deal with tenants, so we moved to the suburb. AT: 21:45 And what year was that you left the city? MO: 21:50 1970. Ah 72' ; because Brian was in the new house. No? 70' ; Brian Ozaki: 22:03 76' ; or 77' ; . MO: 22:12 76' ; or 77. But you, BO: 22:14 I was three. MO: 22:14 Yeah, you were three and Jennifer was in first grade or kindergarten? Well, somewhere around there. AT: 22:26 Where did you meet your husband? MO: 22:29 Where it was one of those, uh, CNAA dances, socials that we had. That' ; s where I first met him. AT: 22:38 And so did you go to those dances often? MO: 22:43 Whenever I could, I did go. AT: 22:49 Can you describe or explain with, what the dances were and then maybe describe. MO: 22:55 It was usually held at the YWCA on Chicago Avenue I think. Or no, also at Olivet Institute where we played basketball. So uh it was either there or. Other than that I guess, uh, I was in a all girl basketball club, Bellesharmeer, AT: 23:33 What was that? MO: 23:33 Belle, Bellesharmeer. Um, there were many clubs but we were at the tail end and after that I think they, uh, it was phased out. But uh, so other than that I wasn' ; t really doing anything outside. Basically a homebody, I guess. AT: 23:55 Ballshawmeer? MO: 24:07 B e l l e s h a r m e e r. I think. AT: 24:10 So was that a club? A team? MO: 24:11 Yes, basketball club. AT: 24:13 Oh it was a basketball club. MO: 24:13 Yeah. AT: 24:14 So you did, you played basketball? MO: 24:16 Yes. AT: 24:20 And then what about the dances, um, who was invited and who was coming to these? MO: 24:29 Well, all the members of the clubs, I don' ; t think there was any admission or anything and, and uh, records were, I mean the music is by records. I think I' ; m, I' ; m not quite sure. AT: 24:53 Well, how, can you explain a little bit more about what the clubs were, how they formed? Was that just kind of a normal thing that people were affiliated or? MO: 25:07 I, I guess, uh, you, you choose your friends and you form a club basically to play basketball. I think uh, the boys, they also played baseball. But I don' ; t know too much about that, but basketball was the most popular sport. So that' ; s it. I guess I wasn' ; t really, I guess I was more a homebody, you know, not really going out and venturing out to meet other people more or less just stayed home. AT: 25:58 But you did meet your husband at one of those dances? MO: 26:00 Yeah, but outside of that, CNAA. I didn' ; t venture out to a high school clubs or high school, um, events or anything that was happening in school. I didn' ; t participate in that. Just everything during school hours. AT: 26:25 Do you remember the names of some of the other clubs? MO: 26:31 Yeah. Ruins, Role Babes, Saints, Imadoerries, Colette' ; s, Debonairs. Oh, that there are many. And each club I, think had about at least half a dozen or dozen to a dozen or so. Like I said, we were at the tail end of it though. The other clubs are the people were much older. And uh so. AT: 27:06 How many were in your club? MO: 27:10 Probably six. You have to have at least five, six or eight maybe. AT: 27:20 Do you remember the names of the members? MO: 27:27 Um not all of them, but a Tatsko Matsumoto model was one of them, uh, in Bellesharmeer I can' ; t, you know, I can' ; t remember the rest, that' ; s terrible. AT: 27:43 We won' ; t tell anyone. MO: 27:43 But I mean, I have other friends that were in the other clubs, you know, but in my club, uh, I wasn' ; t sure. I' ; m not sure of the names. AT: 28:03 And um, you, you mentioned that I' ; m coming to Chicago and Virginia out of your circle is that were mostly Japanese American, but there was some prejudice. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about that? MO: 28:31 Well, I mean, they use the word Japs, you know, things like that. And um, uh, I guess, uh, we heard, we heard that, uh, not, not many people would rent to Japanese or even hire you, but I think, uh, later on they realized that we were clean and work very hard and diligently and kept to ourselves. We don' ; t make waves and have ah respect for other people. So people, uh, became to trust us more. So it was much easier about that, but you can still feel some, the uh, well, I guess I shouldn' ; t say that, but it turned out for the best, I think it did. Something that was negative, became a positive, I think. And um, since I was so young, I didn' ; t feel any, uh, suffering because you' ; re with your family most of the time. And where would you go? Oh, you' ; re with your family, ah good or bad. But, uh, so I' ; m pretty sure my parents suffered a lot because they were forced to do something that didn' ; t want ah and also they had to let go of all their belongings, so I' ; m sure they really had a hard time, but I myself did not experience that hardship or suffering, and my parents didn' ; t show it either. AT: 31:05 Um, do you, um, how do you keep in touch with your, your Japanese heritage. If you do, um, what are some ways that you? MO: 31:32 I belong to the Buddhist temple, Buddhist temple of Chicago. And then I go to, when I' ; m in Illinois, I go to, uh, uh, the, uh, most of the festivals that they have here. And um, even in Las Vegas I go to their festivals and uh, uh, sometimes, uh, the taiko group from Japan comes. And so I would see them perform and it. BO: 32:13 [inaudible] MO: 32:13 Well, um, I do belong to a Buddhist temple in Chicago, like I said, and then I also belong to the Osoko group of that temple or we are, or we used to be the backbone of that temple. So of course I' ; m not here every Sunday because I live in Wisconsin. So when I' ; m in town, I' ; m at the temple and whatever is going on, I do help out with whatever I can for the temple. AT: 33:06 Is that something that' ; s important to you? MO: 33:08 Yes, when I' ; m in Chicago I always make sure that I go to the temple on Sunday. I try to make it my business to go there, yeah. AT: 33:19 And how about for your children? MO: 33:24 Uh, Joe, I did, I did take them to the temple when they were young, but uh, as they become, became older, well, I let them do whatever they wanted to do and they also want to Japanese language school at the temple had. So they went to that. And um, my daughter was also taking Japanese dancing with the shiyu kai. And so she was in that for several years. So I, I try to maintain the culture, but now it' ; s very difficult. The children grow up and they had their own ideas. So I don' ; t force my ideas on them. Whatever they want to do, it' ; s, it' ; s okay. AT: 34:26 And then, um, I think for many Japanese Americans the [historian?] Experience of internment, of course, is very prevalent. Is that something that you talked about with your kids? MO: 34:41 No, not really, uh, I don' ; t believe so. Of course, um, later on the kids got interested in it, especially my son, then we would talk about it. But other than that, no. AT: 35:16 Do you feel like, do you feel like it' ; s something that your, your kids and grand kids should know or is it important? MO: 35:31 Well, uh, I think they should know and uh my grandchildren are learning about it because the teacher does ah dwell on that subject. My husband and I went there and met with the class and we spoke about our experiences. In fact a teacher or ah video taped it and every year around October she would present it to the children and then every year after that, uh, she was sending me a thank you know, along with the remarks from the children. So that' ; s very nice that she has an interest in this project. So, um, I hope most Americans will hear about this, something that happened to us. But, um, but I think it turned out for the best, at least I don' ; t. I was too young to really know the impact of it. And I think, uh, now that a lot of people know about a Japanese American, that, that, uh, we are decent American like anybody else. So I' ; m happy the way it turned out. AT: 37:13 Now that you' ; re older and more, you know, there' ; s been a lot of time since what happened, what do you, what do you see as being some of the impacts of that experience? MO: 37:30 What, say that again? AT: 37:38 What, what are, what do you see as some of the impacts of internment whether on you or your family or MO: 37:50 You know, like I said, I, there is no because I wasn' ; t with my parents, my mother. And wherever your mother takes you, you know, that' ; s your, that' ; s your life and you don' ; t know anything else. Any other things, whether good or bad, you' ; re with your, with your mother. So, um, I have no ill feelings myself. My education was not interrupted. My work was not interrupted. I was too young. But just thinking about my parents, what they went through, then I can understand, but of course didn' ; t talk about it either. So I could just imagine what the adventure that' ; s, that' ; s about it. AT: 39:03 And if you could leave your children and grandchildren and generations to come with some kind of message or, or legacy, what would you want that to be? MO: 39:21 Always be respectful, consid, considerate of others. Um, that' ; s all I would want from them. Be a law abiding citizen. AT: 39:41 Well, thank you so much for coming in and speaking MO: 39:45 You' ; re welcome. I don' ; t think I had too many to offer here it. AT: 39:51 Is there anything that you might want to add or that I might' ; ve missed in the conversation? MO: 40:00 No, not really, uh, you know, in camp, they fed you, but, but, uh, I can' ; t even complain about that because I don' ; t even really remember, but I guess it was edible. We survived it at all. Uh, I never remember complaining about the food. I do remember my mom bringing home ah leftover rice and I guess it was a, it was like, um, it was burnt so they would dry it and put teriyaki sauce on it and make it like a senbei or arare, but those little things. But I never, never thought about the food, how bad or how good or bad it was, I just. And I don' ; t even remember the many lines that we had to stand and wait for her to go into the mess hall or even to the washrooms or a shower. But um, so that was my life and I just, I guess accepted it, you know, it was, it wasn' ; t bad at all. I think I had a good life. AT: 41:23 Well, and some of those things you described, it seems like they might have been learned later on. MO: 41:31 Yeah. AT: 41:33 Do you remember your reactions to learning about some of the conditions and MO: 41:40 Well um, just that, I' ; m very surprised that everybody went quietlly, that' ; s the only amazement that I have, you know, we didn' ; t have a riot or we didn' ; t. I don' ; t think my maybe most people did oppose it, but I didn' ; t experience it. So it was just ah, um just amazed that we all went quietly and of course we were given few only a few days to do that. So I' ; m surprised that we were all able to do that. Getting rid of our belongings and selling whatever you had. And so that' ; s all I can add. AT: 42:34 Brian, is there anything you want to say, or ask? BO: 42:41 At what point did they take grandpa? Was it at the very beginning? MO: 42:46 What? BO: 42:46 At what point did they take grandpa to Santa Fe? Was it at the very beginning? MO: 42:46 You know, I, I' ; m not sure. Maybe we were there together at Tule Lake and after that, uh, probably, uh, he left. I' ; m not quite sure when, when he left us. So. AT: 43:12 Was that something that you remember as a child? MO: 43:15 No, I don' ; t remember that. AT: 43:26 Thank you so much again for coming in and speaking with me. MO: 43:30 You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzakiMary20170915.xml OzakiMary20170915.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Ozaki, Mary (9/15/2017)
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2017-09-15
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Doi, Mary
Nagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
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Ozaki, Rebecca
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Interview Keyword
Yonsei
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL Chicago chapter
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
Northeastern Illinois University
CWRIC Hearings
Community organizing
Kansha project
Intergenerational trauma
Healing
Repair
Mixed-race identity
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/16/2023 Ozaki, Rebecca (3/16/2023) 1:12:50 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yonsei Japanese American Citizens League JACL Chicago chapter Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians Northeastern Illinois University CWRIC Hearings Community organizing Kansha project Intergenerational trauma Healing Repair Mixed-race identity Ozaki, Rebecca Doi, Mary Nagasawa, Katherine video 1:|19(5)|37(5)|49(6)|64(4)|74(7)|89(3)|100(1)|111(9)|126(11)|137(12)|148(4)|163(16)|175(6)|188(1)|197(7)|210(4)|224(4)|236(12)|246(10)|256(3)|268(14)|282(4)|292(9)|303(5)|316(1)|327(13)|337(13)|348(11)|362(7)|371(7)|381(2)|392(8)|403(4)|415(1)|427(6)|442(10)|453(6)|463(11)|474(3)|486(15)|498(12)|512(5)|523(9)|534(1)|544(5)|566(9)|581(7)|590(12)|600(3)|611(3)|621(13)|632(5)|649(2)|660(6)|670(12)|691(8)|703(1)|713(8)|722(8)|735(9)|745(10)|755(8)|770(5)|781(4)|793(2)|814(11)|824(7)|840(1)|850(14)|866(5)|875(2)|905(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/824899592 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/824899592" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Rebecca Ozaki, a yonsei born and raised in Chicago, discusses her parents' and grandparents' legacy and the impact of their activism and community involvement on her life. She shares memories of her grandparents and her own experiences learning about their incarceration and their role in the redress movement. She reflects on her grandfather, Sam Ozaki's, testimony at the CWRIC hearings at NEIU andrecalls the power of his voice then and in later years. Connecting her family's legacy to her own training as a social worker, her experiences supporting healing circles for isolated aging adults during the pandemic, and her participation in the Japanese American Citizens League and pan-Asian groups such as OCA and Asian American's Advancing Justice, she shares the many ways in which her family has inspired her to engage in community organizing, elder care, and intergenerational healing efforts. Living in what was her grandparents' house and contemplating the future as a new mother, she expresses gratitude for the work of previous generations and hope for future generations. Mary Doi: Today is March 16th, 2023. This oral history is being recorded at the JACL Chicago office, located at 5415 North Clark Street in Chicago. The interviewers are Mary Doi and Katherine Nagasawa. The interviewee is Rebecca Ozaki. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American Redress Movement in Chicago and the Midwest. This interview will differ from a normal conversation in that I will not use verbal cues and responses. Instead, I' ; ll use facial expressions to communicate my interest in what you' ; re saying, and we do this because it makes for a cleaner transcript. You can decline to answer any question without giving a reason. You can take breaks whenever you need them and you can end the interview at any point. Unders-- Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Great. Mary Doi: Okay, great. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Sounds good. Mary Doi: Please make sure your cell phone is silenced. And the way we' ; re going to do this is Katherine Nagasawa is going to start out the interview and then I' ; ll pick up in the last half of the interview questions. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Okay. Mary Doi: So, I' ; m handing it off to you, Kat. Katherine Nagasawa: Awesome. Thanks, Mary. So we asked you about this when we talked last time, Becky, but I was wondering if you could talk about the role that your grandparents played in getting you involved in the Chicago Japanese American community and also just any of your favorite memories from those times. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): My grandparents and I were really close growing up. They lived like 10 minutes away from us and I spent a lot of time with them. They were both really involved in the Japanese American community. So I remember going to the Nikkei Picnic growing up, going to the JASC Holiday Delight. I even remember going to some community rallies with them for different events, I think? And they were both very involved in community, like I said. So, yeah, I learned a lot from them. I think that they were two people who really listened to me. I felt like as a child, very heard by them and they taught me a lot of things about community, about what it means to I guess show up for community and be in solidarity with other folks and just how to be a kind, decent person, I think. And I really yeah, appreciate that about them, I' ; ll say. Katherine Nagasawa: Are there any favorite memories from the Annual Nikkei Picnic or Holiday Delight that come to mind? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah, from the Annual Nikkei Picnic, I remember going there with my siblings and my family almost every year but we would play all those kids' ; games that they have at the picnic. I remember winning this Sailor Moon toy and I had it for years because it, it was just my favorite thing ever. I think it was from like the three-legged race that me and my brother won. And at the, let' ; s see... at the JASC Holiday Delight, there was always the Japanese American Santa Claus, and we would do arts and crafts. I think I remember my grandma baking cookies for that event too. So yeah, those are just like special memories growing up where I felt very connected to them and to the Japanese American community. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And I was wondering also when and how did you first learn about Japanese American incarceration? Do you remember how you felt about it at the time? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I remember... You know I can' ; t remember the very first time I learned about it because I feel like my grandfather just kind of always spoke to us about Japanese American incarceration. He was a Chicago public school teacher and principal, so he often took the opportunity to talk about it in larger spaces. I will say, I remember a Day of Remembrance event at DePaul right after 9/11 happened. And I remember my grandpa standing up, or you know speaking out at the end of it saying that us as a community or Japanese Americans need to stand in solidarity with Muslim, our Muslim and Sikh brothers and sisters, I remember him saying. And just the way my grandpa spoke, you know he really... It' ; s like he was soft-spoken but could also command a room at the same time? And yeah, I' ; ll just never forget him saying that. I don' ; t really know what that meant to me at the time. I think I have these memories of him you know speaking in these moments when the community gathered. But I think throughout my life it has impacted the way that I feel I need to show up for my own community and for other communities. So that, you know, in the long-term, had a big impact on me. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And sort of, to your point about your grandparents really listening to you, or I think you mentioned last time like you felt like you could ask them anything, it seems like it was maybe more of an ongoing conversation with them than one particular moment where they told you about what happened. But one thing you did say was that your parents said your grandparents didn' ; t necessarily talk as openly about it until you and your siblings were born. Could you talk a bit more about that and do you feel like there was something about becoming grandparents that, that changed their openness to the conversation? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I think in talking with my dad and my aunt and my uncle, they said that for them growing up, my grandparents, their parents, didn' ; t talk to them about incarceration as much. They really learned things you know after my grandparents became more vocal about it after we were born. So, I mean for myself, I know being a mom definitely has changed me. So, I imagine them being grandparents changed them as well. And there was something, I think, there with them wanting to pass on their story and their legacy. I' ; ll say my grandfather you know was more vocal about his time in the camps. He was in the 442 as well. My grandmother, if I asked her she would talk about it, but I think you know, there was a lot of... like everyone that went through this experience, a lot of trauma that happened to her. Her dad passed away in the camps just weeks before they closed. So, there was a lot. And she was a little bit younger than my grandfather. So there were things that, she didn' ; t you know, openly tell us and it, and that was, it was kind of like peeling back layers over the years. But again, for my dad, my aunt, and my uncle, they didn' ; t really learn things throughout. I remember... They just had like tidbits and pieces you know that I would ask them about after my grandparents passed away. For example, with redress, I asked my you know, uncle and aunt, did they talk to you about this as it was happening? Because I know that they had meetings in their living rooms or my grandfather you know, shared his testimony at the hearings. And my uncle said that they didn' ; t really directly say what was happening to them at the time. It was moreso, my uncle remembers my grandfather practicing his speech like over and over again, which is kind of funny ' ; cause he changed the whole thing when he got to the hearing itself, but those are moments that they remember. So I think we had a really different experience, you know my dad' ; s generation and me and my siblings, when it came to what was shared and how openly it was shared. So, I' ; m appreciative that we got to have that relationship and hear the things that we were able to. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I was wondering if you could share the story from, I think it was third or fourth grade when you were studying Japanese American incarceration. Could you describe what happened and how, kind of how you felt about that? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): In third or fourth grade, we had, we finally had a series, or you know a paragraph in our history book about Japanese American incarceration. Even though it was a, not necessarily a moment for a kid to be excited, for me it was a moment because I felt you know, my grandparents have talked to me about this, this is my history. And I didn' ; t realize it at the time but I did feel represented in that one paragraph that we had. So my teacher when we were having the discussion asked me you know, to share a little bit about what my grandparents' ; experience has been since they both were in the camps during World War II. And the terminology that my grandparents used was really different than what was in textbooks at the time. So you know my grandfather would say incarceration, he would also say concentration camp as he got older and became more firm in the fact that the government forced us into these camps. And it was called a concentration camp in the U.S. context. So I remember using that term, and I know it' ; s a loaded term, concentration camps, especially you know if you' ; re Jewish, Jewish American. But I do remember my teacher who may have actually been you know, Jewish and Jewish American, she corrected me at the time and she said like, " ; That is not the right term to use." ; Like that' ; s not, kind of like that' ; s not what happened to your family. And I was just really confused by it because I grew up, you know, hearing different things and then telling-- being told that I was like wrong for saying what I said about what happened to my family, I was just confused as a kid. And I think after that it really made me feel like invalidated and like maybe my, I said the wrong thing or like offended someone in my voice, what didn' ; t matter at that time. And I know my teacher' ; s intention was not to do that. She has a different history that as an adult I can reflect on and appreciate, but in that moment I did feel like I said the wrong thing, so I don' ; t really want to share anymore with my classroom or my, my teachers. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Do you remember if you ever talked to your parents or grandparents about that terminology or the experience in class? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I don' ; t think I did actually. I think I just honestly have kept it with me for many years and kind of reflected back on that. I don' ; t remember bringing it up to them afterwards. I think it took me a little while to like understand what happened. And I was pretty self-reflective and self-conscious about it for many years. So I can' ; t say that I did bring it up, but I wish I did. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, I wanted to switch a little bit to talking about some of your early memories of the redress movement. You mentioned to us that your great-grandma gave you and your siblings her redress money. Can you tell that story and just talk about what you knew about redress at the time and how you felt about it? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Sure. I didn' ; t know much to be honest. The tidbits that I got from my grandparents and even from my dad and his siblings post, you know post-redress was that, that they used to hold meetings in their living room, which is cool for me because we live in that house now. So, when I go into that living room, I try to imagine you know the conversations that were had. I know that my grandfather-- or my grandparents were involved in both of the lanes that it took to... Or both of the lanes that folks organized around during redress. So, the CJAR side and the side that you know the Civil Liberties Act was finally passed. So for me, I think that is important to reflect on that they chose to be part of both groups. I think, I know that my grandfather had a lot of relationships in the community and was respected. And when I talked to Bill Yoshino about it, he said that was really important for people to see that both sides were equally as important in what it took to you know win redress in the end. So unfortunately, I don' ; t have too many you know stories or nuggets of that history aside from that. But, I... Yeah I think I am still trying to uncover it by asking you know relatives what they' ; ve, what they' ; ve known from that. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, and then can you talk--[audio cuts out]-- receiving some of the redress money as well, like when that happened and how it was explained to you? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah. I can' ; t remember how old we were but my great grandma, our Baa-chan, she lived you know, in the house with my grandparents and my dad and my, my aunt and uncle growing up. I think she lived until she was like, 99 years old. Yeah, for a very long time. And after she passed, it was years after she passed, but I think my parents mentioned that she left us money, that she left us money and that you know, we could use it when we were a certain age or something like that. I think when we... I don' ; t even know if I asked because I was young and I was like, " ; That' ; s great, there, you know, thank you Baa-chan." ; I, I didn' ; t really even know the question to ask around it. But I do kind of remember my mom and dad saying, you know this is from, like this is because our family was put into camps. And for me at the time to make those connections, I don' ; t think they explained everything you know, fully to the point of, this is how the money got to you necessarily. But they did say that, that like this is because our family was put into incarceration camps and your grandmother saved this for each of you. So, I don' ; t think, again, at the time the impact of it or what that meant or even my grandparents' ; role in redress resonated as they told us that we were getting you know X amount of dollars. But again, as I got older, you know, I feel the, like the privilege in that and also that my family fought hard to get an apology and also reparations because of what happened. So it' ; s a lot to reflect on that I' ; m realizing as I get older. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, as you like put all the pieces together. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Right. Katherine Nagasawa: I, I love that detail about how you know, you think about your living room and all the history that happened in it and meetings from NCJAR you know that would' ; ve happened in that space. What does it mean for you to inherit your grandpa' ; s space and know that the place you live in was part of the Midwest Redress Movement history? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I feel very lucky that we can be in that space. We inherited it under circumstances, you know that we weren' ; t expecting, I guess I' ; ll say, because we wanted to help my family... It was either, you know get rid of the house because it' ; s falling apart or try to save it. So, to me that house represents a lot of things, including the redress movement, my grandparents' ; legacy and the way that they showed up in community. There were so many gatherings in that house that I remember and that predated you know, my life. So our family has been in Rogers Park, in that specific house, for over 60 years now. So to inherit that to me, and also have like my family and my nine-month-old move into that house and be able to, yeah like connect with the Rogers Park community and continue my grandparents' ; legacy, I don' ; t know, as we live out our lives there, it feels really special and definitely a privilege too, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you share any artifacts that you might' ; ve stumbled upon in the house kind of going through your grandpa and grandma' ; s materials? Are there any standout things of theirs that you' ; ve found? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yes, they kept so many things in their closets. And... Where do I even start? On my grandmother' ; s closet, as we were cleaning things out, we found old photos from Japan, documents you know, from my Baa-chan' ; s immigration here, photos of folks we don' ; t even know, but it still like means something to me. It' ; s very hard to sort through all of that history. In my grandfather' ; s side of his closet at the time, he, you know we still have the trunk that he took into the war when he was part of the 442. And all of his medals and his backpack were in there. He had this diary that was a five-year journal and every year he would write something and he started it the year that the war started, that. And I remember one entry, I don' ; t know you know, what month or date it was, but it said, " ; The FBI took my father away." ; And that' ; s all it said. It was just like one line for that one year. And two years later, the same day my grandfather wrote like, " ; I am joining the 442 to be with my friends." ; Like these little things that I couldn' ; t even fathom at his age. He was only 17 when the war started. That was something also very special but jarring as I would go through it to see you know, what his and many Japanese Americans lives were like at that time. It' ; s just completely different from what you know, I' ; ve been through or what my, luckily what my child you know, hopefully will go through in his life. Very different. We also have a, like a family crest that has been in our family for, I don' ; t know, generations maybe that my great-great-great-great-grandmother handcrafted. So that hangs in our house too. But yeah there' ; s a lot of, there' ; s a lot of history there that we try to hold onto and try to figure out how to preserve you know, the best that we can so that one day I can show my son these things that mean so much to me. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. That' ; s incredible about the diary and I' ; m wondering, did you discover that sort of when you moved in or was that, did you discover it when your grandpa was still alive and were you able to talk to him about it? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I discovered that... So it was after my grandfather passed, but after that time I would go... My uncle still lived in that house, so I would go to their house a lot you know and I would hang out with my uncle. And I guess I call it treasure hunting. I would literally just go through all of their closets and look for things, not really looking for anything at the same time, just to see what would come out because I knew they had so many artifacts and like mementos that they never mentioned to me. So, every time I would go to that house, I would just wander around and treasure hunt I guess. So I found it during you know one of those times and I think I found it in my, like the back of my grandpa' ; s closet in his backpack that he brought to the, you know, that he brought to the war. Totally tucked away and he never mentioned it at all to us as we were growing up like many of the things in that house. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Wow. How did it change your understanding of him and also of Japanese American incarceration to read those firsthand accounts from when he was so young? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I think that, you know, I' ; ve heard the stories. Again, I felt fortunate that my grandparents would talk to us about it because it was such a traumatic event. I can understand why many people, Japanese Americans did not want to talk about it and wanted to you know, leave it in the past. I think reading what he went through in particular was just like a different level of what, my understanding of what happened. Because he was 17, 18, 19 at the time when he was writing these things in his journal. Like I don' ; t know if he knew that one day his grandchildren would read that right? Or later maybe his great-grandchildren. But yeah, I used the word jarring before, but I think that' ; s how it felt just to... I, I' ; ve gone through that whole journal probably a couple of times. And sometimes I will just pick you know, whatever day today is and look to see what he was doing that day. And it' ; s still very... I don' ; t know, I don' ; t even know what the word is. It' ; s surprising and sad sometimes to see how different our lives were. So, it also makes me feel really appreciative for not what they went through ' ; cause they should not have had to go through that, but how my grandparents you know, passed on that legacy to us in a way that we, I think me and my siblings have learned to value. Again, things like community or standing in solidarity and have really... We' ; ve taken to heart you know, all of these lessons. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, and I know you said that you know, when it comes to the redress movement, you might not have found as many artifacts yet or your family doesn' ; t maybe have as many... Maybe didn' ; t have as many conversations with your grandparents about that. But are there any other memories that your aunts and uncles or parents have shared with you related to your grandparents' ; involvement in redress? Whether that' ; s you know, the meetings that were held or you mentioned your grandpa practicing his testimony over and over. Can you think of any others that' ; s, that have been shared? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah I, let' ; s see. So my mom spent a lot of time with my grandpa too, and I tried to ask her. He' ; s her father-in-law, but still they spent a lot of time together. So, I tried to ask her if she remembered anything and the memories she had, because my parents are musicians, she said that my dad and my mom went to Washington, D.C. I don' ; t know what the timeline was, but it happened to perform. My dad was a singer and my mom' ; s a concert pianist at a ceremony around redress at some point. And I' ; m not sure you know, what the details were or even if the timelines match, but I know that that was something you know, that was a big deal for them in our family, that my family, you know, the next generation too, got to participate in that way because of what you know, my grandfather in that generation had passed on to us through redress. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And I even found a poster of your parents' ; names performing at some sort of local event too in Chicago. So, it seems like they might' ; ve been involved kind of as performers in a bunch of the NCJAR-related things which is neat. Did your mom say anything about how she felt personally or how your dad might' ; ve felt about the redress movement as the younger generation? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): My dad, I don' ; t know that he' ; s spoken to me directly about redress per se. I know that he, he was angry, you know obviously about what happened to our family and to his parents and held that anger for a very long time. I think when it came to redress, I just honestly I remember him saying like, " ; We should have gotten more. We should have asked for more." ; And I can' ; t argue with that, I think that his generation too was raised like in the civil rights movement and movements looked really different. So I do remember my dad saying that like it' ; s not enough. And I think he took many actions in his life to demonstrate that and to say what the government did is unacceptable. It' ; ll never be okay even with an apology. That' ; s really the stance he took and he made it, yeah, he would talk to us about that a good amount actually. So I' ; m not sure if he had memories necessarily from redress or you know other insights, but I do know that that overall, is how he felt about what happened and the outcomes. He felt that the government needs to do more. And I think he respected and appreciated all the organizing efforts of the community, absolutely, but he was, he still held a lot of anger towards the U.S. government, which I think, again, as I get older, I really do understand that perspective as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. One thing I wanted to ask about is you know, when we think about artifacts from redress, the digitized videos of the testimonies are, are one of those main kind of artifacts we have to understand what happened during the hearings and, and also people' ; s personal stories. And several people have mentioned to us that your grandpa' ; s testimony really stood out to them. When they think about memories from those hearings, like they said it was Sam Ozaki' ; s testimony that they, that stuck with them. And so, I was curious about you know, whether you' ; d watched that testimony and how it made you feel to, to hear what your grandpa said, especially that you know, the fact that he kind of did adapt what he said in the moment too and was a little bit more spontaneous with his message. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I' ; ve watched it many times, yeah. And sometimes when I miss him I will just pull it up and watch it as well because, yeah his voice is very calming to me and I think to a lot of people. I don' ; t know how to describe the way he can move a room, but it was really powerful. And that testimony definitely demonstrated that. I read the one that he had on paper, which was equally as moving but different than the one that he shared in that room. And yeah I mean for me, it makes me really proud. I was close to him, but it makes me proud to be his granddaughter. I think the way, at the end of the testimony, he kind of demanded these things and said why. I think he made really like poignant points about the demands that they were asking for. And I sometimes watch that speech and try to learn from it about how to, myself, you know, be a better public speaker and all of these things. The things in that testimony that resonate with me though are the moments that are, where he does share more about like their life before because he was like a very respected, like well-spoken person, but also didn' ; t necessarily share vulnerabilities in, in a certain way I guess. So, to hear him share some of the things in that testimony moved me the most. I' ; m trying to remember. Sometimes I get confused of what was on paper and what he said in the room because I' ; ve read and heard both so many times. One thing, I don' ; t know, maybe this was the one that he wrote on paper, but he did write things and probably say things that this was the start of like family separation because families were separated during that time. For me, I' ; m a social worker and that idea in general is why I, I have done a lot of the work that I' ; ve done. He' ; s also talked about like these tiny moments where he remembers their dog Ichi running after the car when they had to leave to go to camp or, again, like his father being taken away. There' ; s a line in one of his testimonies that he writes... Like to see his father, go from a productive person to someone that he, that didn' ; t quite know how to like contribute anymore was something heartbreaking for my grandpa. And I, yeah definitely feel those things the most when it comes to what he shared. Katherine Nagasawa: If you can, I know obviously, it' ; s kind of, the lines are blurred between what was said and what was written, but if you could summarize what you feel the differences were between kind of the prepared testimony and the more spontaneous one. How would you characterize that? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I think, I think in the written testimony he had a lot of, shared some vulnerable moments. I still think that he did that in the spoken testimony he gave as well, but I felt more of an urgency in the spoken testimony. I don' ; t know if it' ; s because he was saying those things... No, I think it was his voice. Like he obviously adapted that for the moment and knew who he was talking to. He refers to very specific people and says that, " ; I' ; m sorry they couldn' ; t be with us" ; you know, because he wanted to look them in the eye and share his testimony. So, I think there' ; s some urgency in that that is possibly why people felt moved. I think the demands that he shares at the end were probably in both, but in the spoken one, testimony, felt very compelling that he was able to look you know, these folks in the eye and say what you did was wrong. I forgot what the quote is at the end, but he says like, America needs to make this right. And yeah so hearing that' ; s, that has stayed with me as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you know if he or his kids ever talked about his decision to change the testimony the day of? Like do you remember him talking about what compelled him to do that or if any of your parents or aunts and uncles ever discussed that, that decision? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I don' ; t know the details of that, unfortunately. I do think It' ; s interesting that my uncle said that he heard my grandfather practicing you know, leading up to the date over and over and over again, the same speech. And then that he decided to change it in the moment, must have, he must have been moved by being in that space. I can only imagine I wasn' ; t there obviously, but by being in that space with other Japanese Americans that experienced the same thing, I can imagine maybe he was moved after hearing the other folks speak right before him about their experience as well. And he took that opportunity you know, to make sure yeah, that his words held weight and that they really stayed with the commission that was listening. So I wish I knew that story more in depth but that' ; s only what I can imagine of, of how he delivered that. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it makes me so curious to see the written version. I wonder if it' ; s at the JACL or if you happen to have a, a copy, I' ; d be really curious to read the differences between kind of more of the personal vulnerable you know, moments versus maybe the argument he was trying to make in the, in the recorded one. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah I, Bill Yoshino sent it to me years ago, so I can share that with you all. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. That would be, that would be amazing. I think one of the last questions from my end is just, you mentioned this earlier, the DePaul event just right after 9/11 and how you remember your grandpa standing up and sort of speaking and urging Japanese Americans to stand in solidarity with the Muslim community. I also remember you said that that was one of the first moments when you started connecting the story of Japanese American incarceration with more broad themes of racial violence or racial injustice. So, can you talk to me about kind of how you made that connection from-- and maybe the role that your grandpa played in helping you see and frame our experience that way? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): He said that we need to stand with our Muslim, Sikh-- Muslim and Sikh brothers and sisters. That is just like a line that is burned into my memory. And again, when he spoke, people listened. I didn' ; t know what that meant to me at the time. But I think it' ; s a memory that not only I have, but I think other folks who are my age, they' ; ve mentioned it to me, which I think is really interesting. I go back to that when I, I guess just like as I' ; ve grown up to try to figure out what you know, my own path is in life. I have been involved in community in a lot of ways too, and I think, or I know that that' ; s because of them. They really taught us that that is the most important thing to be part of your community, you know, to care for your family, and to yeah just stand up for what you think is right in you know, whatever ways that looks. So I go back to that moment and that quote as the time where you know, in moments that are tough for me, where it' ; s really hard to make a decision or I feel burnt out, or I don' ; t have, yeah just the energy and I don' ; t want to take a stand. I think about what my grandfather said and that... I mean even now, yeah like it' ; s a privilege to not take a stand, I think, and to say that we' ; re not going to do anything or to make that choice for myself. You know and sometimes I do make that choice because I' ; m tired or because you know I' ; ve been in this work for a little while. But that quote and him saying it, like his voice in my head just constantly rings with you know, how can I be better or how can I make sure that I' ; m showing up for other folks too. Because I know that my community you know and the Japanese American community has shown up for me in many ways too, so through my life-- Again, I' ; m a social worker, but I' ; m more community based. I' ; ve also been a community organizer working with elders, doing things like healing circles during the pandemic. And I think the way that he has cared for others has really rubbed off on me and I think my siblings as well. So yeah I' ; m glad I mean that I have a moment that has resonated with me and has helped kind of guide me through my life. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Mary, I' ; ll let you pick it up from here, kind of talking about maybe Becky' ; s more current roles you know in racial justice movements and whatnot. Mary Doi: Okay, thanks Kat. One thing, as I' ; m listening to you, I realize that a way that you have been privileged is that you have the intimate knowledge of your grandfather, whether it comes through a diary, or whether it comes through just the tone he used in the words that he said at the testimony. And that to me, that' ; s another gift that he gave to you. You know and, and I think maybe people seek that when they go to Manzanar or Rohwer, that they seek this kind of emotional connection, which short of having a diary or hearing your grandfather' ; s voice at a hearing, is so hard to get, it' ; s so hard to claim. You know it is so hard to understand what did they feel like, not just the facts of, not just the chronology of how they got here, but what the experience meant in their larger life. So I really, I thank you for saying those kinds of things ' ; cause making me think of him. And you' ; re right, I don' ; t know how to describe your grandfather' ; s voice. It was deep, it was sonorous, it was not, it was-- It was angry without being loudly angry. You know and, and I' ; m one of the fans of, of Sam Ozaki in the community. And I just wonder, I know that you have uncles, another uncle in Chicago, and cousins in the neighborhood or in the area. Do you know if they were equally involved in redress as your dad? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Oh, let' ; s see. I know that my-- So my grandfather had siblings who were equally as amazing, I hear. We were younger, so you know, I knew them from family parties, but we didn' ; t spend as much time with them. They had large families as well. So I know that they played different roles in the Chicago American Japanese, you know Japanese American community, but I' ; m not quite sure what it looked like during redress for his siblings at the time. I wish I did though. Yeah. Mary Doi: Yeah, okay. Well I guess I' ; m interested in moving into the kinds of, the other kinds of experiences that you' ; ve had with people that make you involved in issues of racial violence you know, because of what happened to Japanese Americans. Can you think of other kinds of ways that you connected the dots and, and show us what solidarity means? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Sure. I became a social worker because of something that my aunt, my grandfather' ; s sister said to us when we were on a road trip to California. She lives in California, Auntie June, we call her. She and my grandpa were there and it was one of the rare times that they were together. And she told me, you know I was asking, " ; What do you know about, you know or-- Can you share memories from childhood about you know, grandpa?" ; And she said, it was really sad actually, because she said once incarceration happened and they were sent to camps, they barely saw each other because everyone was like separated in a different way. You know, one sibling went to college outside of the camps. They were different ages too. My grandfather decided to enlist and go-- He was in the 442. And she, I' ; m not sure if she stayed in the camps, I think she also was able to leave to pursue education. But she said that they don' ; t have memories together because after that time they all went to different cities. So, she was in California and he went to Chicago. And the idea of, that was the first time the idea of the camps forcing family separation, whether it was, you know... Well they were intentional, the camps were intentional, but I mean whether that product was intentional or not. That' ; s the first time that idea even came to me when she said, " ; I didn' ; t really know him because, because we were separated at the time. And from that point, didn' ; t live together." ; So for me, I became a social worker, I think, to kind of explore that and the idea of what does intergenerational trauma look like because especially from my grandmother' ; s story where she lost her father you know, weeks before the camps closed, I' ; ve just wanted to understand what that looked like and more so what does intergenerational healing look like when things like racial violence, forced separation and all of these things are forced upon an entire community. So that' ; s why I went to pursue social work. But what came from that is that I ended up becoming a community organizer for a few years, working with elders, really with the goal of making sure that people could age in place in their homes with dignity because we helped care for my grandparents as they aged, and they were so you know, close and important to me, and I knew how important it was for them to be in their homes too. So I think that the lessons of incarceration are many fold and I' ; ve taken you know, many different things from that. But the pieces around like healing and what does it mean to be able to keep families together, especially in this time when there' ; s so many policies that are you know, reenacting what happened to Japanese Americans in this day and age, it' ; s just really sad and ridiculous. Those are the things that I' ; m trying to combat and also trying to help folks heal from, I think, is really what I' ; ve taken from, from this terrible experience my grandparents went through. Mary Doi: I know that other Yonseis like you-- Ty Yamamoto: Sorry can we pause for just one moment? Mary Doi: Okay. I hear a humming every once in a while. Like " ; mmm, mmm, mmm" ; . Ty Yamamoto: Do you know where you' ; re hearing it from? Mary Doi: No. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): It could be my, I think my phone hummed for a second. Let me make s-- I don' ; t know how to turn off the vibration. I' ; ll just put it over there. Ty Yamamoto: Yeah it' ; s, it' ; s coming from the microphone. Ty Yamamoto: Yeah, you can go ahead. Mary Doi: Okay. We were talking a little bit about intergenerational trauma and healing circles. I' ; m still wrapping my head around the concept of intergenerational trauma and healing circles. So you gave an example when we had a phone call about how you' ; re working with I guess the Jane Addams Senior Caucus to do healing circles for seniors during the pandemic. Can you explain a little bit about that? I want to hear what a healing circle... What their goals are and how you, how you conduct one, and then how you know if you' ; re successful. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Oh, okay. Let me know if it' ; s okay, Ty? Ty Yamamoto: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we' ; re good. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): So during the pandemic, I was a community organizer with elders and we lost a lot of people, especially at the start of the pandemic when COVID-19 first hit. And it was hard to know what to do because we couldn' ; t gather right? Folks, these are mostly seniors living in Chicago public housing and folks felt very isolated. So the first thing that folks wanted was to be able to celebrate the life of Frank Hill, who was someone you know, that we all really cared about and loved. And he passed unexpectedly when COVID began. So, we held a virtual memorial for Frank and invited you know, the leaders and the members of the organization and also Frank' ; s family members if they wanted to come. We shared stories about him. This is all on Zoom. And we you know, tried to collect photos of Frank through his life and, and showed those as well. That memorial, because folks couldn' ; t gather in person like we would have in any other scenario, I think really was impactful or healing for, for our members. So, what came from that is we started healing circles that the members themselves led. So I was just there to help like organize and guide them through that. And healing circles you know, are an indigenous practice where, again, in any other scenario, you would be in person. Often they would happen like around a, a fire, things like that. So, we adopted-- adapted them for our members and the members were the ones who were leading these circles and facilitating them. I think the goal with these was to like decrease isolation for folks and help them you know through that feel connected and feel like they have a space that they could go to, to talk about the hardships or trauma that they were facing during the pandemic. That, that was pretty much simply how they were born. So we would hold one every month and invite community members who are mostly elders, but then eventually like more and more folks came to join, and then more and more folks were the ones to organize them, so it was you know passed on. I' ; m hoping they still exist. You know, even after I left the organization, I still keep in touch with folks too. But that to me was really important and special because I think you know, in community organizing, for that purpose, we had a lot of things that we wanted to achieve. Obviously, passing policies at the state level. We also worked with organizations on the national level around care and like family policies. Again, making sure elders or people could age with dignity in their homes. But that, the healing circles in particular, I think helped people feel like a different level of care. They helped people feel connected in a way where our movements, like our campaigns or phone banking or, or having rallies, didn' ; t necessarily? And I think they really built a community through that. So in thinking about Japanese American incarceration and intergenerational healing, to me, I think the most valuable thing in our community is that we' ; re intergenerational and that we have these stories that are passed along you know between the generations and have learned... Like I' ; ve learned so much, obviously, from my grandparents and other folks in the community. So to me, healing circles are a space to share that and also to be open about like the harm that was caused during incarceration and the ways that it has impacted us you know, generations down the line. I think obviously, as a social worker, for me, it' ; s really important, and just like a community organizer, for folks to feel like they have a space to talk about that because I think for a long time, you know mental health was just something that folks could not talk about or it' ; s been taboo. I think that now that that narrative is changing a bit and I would like to see our community be able to engage in conversations that are probably very uncomfortable and really hard to have. But in the end, I think the goal would be that they are healing for folks to be able to just say the ways that incarceration has impacted us and our families because you know, I, I think the model minority myth has like, has been placed upon the Japanese American community, but there are folks struggling in many ways. And to me, that is really important to talk about. Mary Doi: Thanks, Becky. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah. Mary Doi: I' ; m also interested if you' ; ve participated in any movements around redress and reparations for other communities. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Mmm, mm-hmm. I... Let' ; s see... I think, so the beginning of COVID... Let' ; s see... Yeah, so much has happened. Just yeah, the murder of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, so many, so many other people. I' ; d say I haven' ; t actively participated in a way that I would like to. I' ; ve been part of, you know I' ; ve attended like meetings. I know Evanston just passed reparations for African Americans as well. So I' ; ve been in some conversations but I wouldn' ; t say that I' ; ve taken any like lead roles in those spaces. I' ; ve really just tried to learn as much as I could to understand the reasons why we were able to receive reparations but like Black folks and African Americans have not been able to. I think it' ; s interesting the way that the language was written in our-- you know the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 to say, to basically say that this is only for Japanese Americans and we' ; re not setting a precedent for African Americans. So I think to me, I' ; m still trying to learn how to show up in that space and for reparations for African Americans yeah, in a way that, I don' ; t know where I could feel like I' ; m supporting. Yeah, I don' ; t have a great answer but-- Mm-hmm. Mary Doi: Do you feel that there are Sansei who also have that sort of stance about showing up for others? When you think about your aunts and uncles or other Sansei that you know, is this, is this something that' ; s much more generational and it' ; s a Yonsei effort, or you know, what' ; s your opinion. Or even of your grandparents' ; generation, do you feel that showing up in support and solidarity is something that you see in older generations? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Mm-hmm, yeah. Well I worked, since I worked with elders in Chicago, who would be like the Nisei generation, technically. I mean, I think yes, I, I think it depends on the person, but I' ; ve also, especially during COVID times and with everything happening in movement spaces, like all the protests that have happened over the years too, I do think that... I know that the Yonsei generation and even younger than me really do try I think to be part of other community spaces and show up. I mean I do think my grandparents like made those relationships as well and tried to do that. I think it' ; s hard to say... I know my dad, my aunt and my uncle cared about that as well but I' ; m not sure... I don' ; t know what it looked like for them necessarily. So I think that it' ; s-- Yeah, I don' ; t know, because I don' ; t want to categorize a whole generation. You know what I mean? Mary Doi: That' ; s completely fair. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Sure, sure, sure. Mary Doi: I think you' ; ve given us an indication of how your grandpa' ; s you know work and actions and words drew you to social work and the kinds of things you do. But I' ; m also interested in other experiences you may have had. I know you were in the first cohort of Kansha. I know that you probably are a JACL Chicago member because you work for this organization. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yes. Mary Doi: So can you talk a little bit about those kinds of experiences? And then I' ; m really interested in the question of how does repair happen? What does it look like for the Japanese American community? So let' ; s talk about your experiences first and then move into how does repair happen, what does it look like? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Okay. I participated in the Kansha Project, the very first Kansha Project in 2012. And you know, prior to that, I was involved in the Japanese community, but more so just by, you know through my grandparents like attending events that they would take us to. I didn' ; t, I can' ; t necessarily say that I had my own connection to my generation before the Kansha Project because we didn' ; t have like first cousins who are Japanese American. We don' ; t have any it' ; s, just me and my siblings. So, Kansha was the first time I was really in a room with other like Yonsei or, or folks in my generation who were Japanese American. And it was really powerful. I think I built relationships from the Kansha Project. You know, we traveled to Little Tokyo, learned about incarceration, but really meaningfully also went to Manzanar incarceration site. And that' ; s just an experience I can' ; t... We do it every year but I can' ; t describe like the connection that I feel I have to the folks that I went on the trip with. It' ; s like, it' ; s been over 10 years you know, for us and I still feel like I can talk to one of them and it' ; ll feel the same. Like I, I think the Kansha Project for me forged really strong connections with folks that are still you know, in the community. And if not, like we still keep in touch or I keep in touch with a lot of them. So that was really meaningful for me to be able to start building my community. And from there I was involved in the Kansha Alumni Leadership Board, which is a group of alumni who plan the Kansha Project each year. And this year we brought that back for the ALB to happen and for them to plan the trip too. I think it' ; s been really full circle for me to come back as a JACL Chicago staff member as well, after all these years. I, I did serve on the board for a few years. I' ; ve been involved with like the OCA/JACL summit. I worked for other community Asian American organizations like Advancing Justice and OCA. But to come back to JACL for me just feels yeah very full circle. That I' ; m kind of living out my grandparents' ; legacy by you know working with our community in this way. And to me it was important to you know, go through all those programs with JACL Chicago, build my community, like take a step back for a little bit and then come back as I now have a baby. For Kai especially, to be raised in this community, that really is the most important thing to me and why I decided to you know, join the staff at JACL too. Mary Doi: Well using that as a springboard, your, your past experiences and the new ownership that I think you feel being part of the community on your own terms, not as Sam Ozaki' ; s granddaughter. I' ; m still interested in, do you think repair for, for the incarceration experience has happened? What does it look like? Where should it move? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Mm-hmm, I think that redress was a huge feat and a very important one. I' ; m really, as an organizer myself, completely impressed by the steps and the movement that had to happen for folks of that generation to pass that, the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 for our community. I think a lot of people needed that apology, formal apology from the government. You know, $20,000 is something, I agree with my father it' ; s not... It' ; s hard to monetize but I think my grandfather also said you know, money is the American way and that' ; s what the government cares about, so we need to put a number to something. I have heard other versions of what redress or reparations could have looked like, which did include kind of like a mental health lens of folks getting like social services and things like that too. And that is the piece for me, that I think has been missing. I think there' ; s organizations in our community that have done an amazing job with filling in those gaps. But I do think that repair can still happen in like an emotional, like psychosocial lens of folks just feeling like they can talk about the experience and learn from it. And also, again, talk about the hard uncomfortable things that I don' ; t think everyone has gotten the space to talk about yet. And I do see a lot of energy from folks not just in my generation but beyond to create space for that at this time. And you know, healing means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Healing circles are not the answer for everybody but I think like opening that door to give people the opportunity to just say like their reality of what happened and the harm that it has caused is a really important start for our community. So that' ; s kind of the direction that I' ; m hoping to help foster you know, in my time, or as you said, not just as like Sam and Harue Ozaki' ; s granddaughter but like for what I would like to achieve in my own name as, as well and for my son. Yeah. Mary Doi: Yeah. I love how you said that the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 was really necessary. That again, I, I agree with that. My mother really, the apology was really necessary for my mother. But I' ; m wondering if certain institutions like the government can take repair only so far, and that there are other levels of harm that were caused that have to have other ways of addressing. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Right. Mary Doi: Do you, can you think of other, other ways that you' ; ve seen this being addressed? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah. I think the strategies... You know at the beginning of the war when folks were being put into the camps, all the way to redress and beyond that even within the community, I know that there are differences in what that looked like and maybe some repair that needs to happen there between individuals but also like community organizations. And I think like we' ; ve been on the road to do that and that it' ; s really important because to me as, even though I' ; ve you know kind of been raised in the community, as someone who has taken a step back and is coming back in, I think it' ; s just clear to me that we all have the same goal, you know that we are all fighting for the same thing for our community and beyond that. So, I think there' ; s repair that could happen between, you know whether it' ; s national or local levels, just like between organizations and things that could you know, be left in the past. But I do say that as someone who like recognizes that those things were hard for folks and I don' ; t want to dismiss that either, I just would love to be part of finding out what it could look like to repair relationships in that way. Mary Doi: So if you took a, maybe more, maybe made it more abstract than just organizational discord and you think about your own self, have you, do you feel that you have repaired from your grandparents' ; experience, do you feel that you' ; re still in the process of being healed? And if so, what needs to be healed still? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah I am. I don' ; t know if there' ; s an end goal to healing, I think, is one piece that I am realizing as we' ; re talking. I have seen ways that the trauma showed up for my grandparents and I' ; ve seen ways that it has showed up for definitely my father and his siblings. Different, you know, it has looked different. And I definitely also see the ways that for me and my siblings, the impact of the harm that was caused from incarceration has trickled down to us too. So I think-- Yeah. Mary Doi: If you had to summarize the different generational responses, is there you know, a brief sentence or two that you could give? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): In terms of like the ways that it has looked, or? Mary Doi: Yes, yes. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Sure. Let me think. Mary Doi: If you want to come back to that at the end, you know, you can mull that over a little bit. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Sure. Yeah. Mary Doi: I' ; m going to interject, as a, not as an interviewer, but as a person. You know, I see that repair still happens through efforts like Duncan Williams' ; Ireicho, the naming of everybody. That this is a, another way to repair. To put individuals in the camps, not just 120,000. But to put you know, Kazuyuki Doi into that name, list of names. So I see that that is an artistic way. You know, I' ; m sure that there are many other ways, even, even reclaiming aspects of Japanese culture, but making them Japanese American. And I think of taiko as an example of that. You know it has roots in Japan, but JA taiko is very different than even contemporary taiko in Japan. You know, but I watched this really interesting little NHK piece on a museum that was destroyed during the great earthquake tsunami in Japan in 2011 in the Tohoku Region. And one of the things that the only curator who' ; s still left has said was that as he' ; s seeing his city being re, rebuilt, that the infrastructure has come back and now people seem maybe able to face the emotional harm that was done by seeing their city devastated, losing family, losing friends. And he said that one way he thinks that emotional repair can happen is through cultural assets. And I' ; m thinking that assets are not just things but they' ; re also relationships like you' ; ve talked about repairing community relationship at the organizational level. But then I' ; m thinking that heck, Ho Etsu Taiko is much about repair because it can claim your own history, your own culture back you know, as having the fishing net that was destroyed in the Tohoku earthquake. So, it' ; s really opened my mind about what repair looks like, how many different realms repair can happen in? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah. And that it' ; s different for everyone too. Yeah. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah I think, you know, what Kat asked me about the artifacts in my home, to me that is for me a way of healing just to be able to hold on to something tangible from beyond my life you know and yeah be able to share that with other people, that is repair. I think for a while, I was doing organizing around language justice too. And I can' ; t speak another language so people are like, " ; Why do you care about this?" ; But to me it is what you' ; re saying it is, the fact that the Japanese language was taken from my family. And as Kai is old-- or you know grows up, I really feel that absence of you know, he could have had this piece of his culture, but it was literally taken from us. So, I want him to be able to learn that, like to go to Tampopo Kai, JASC' ; s you know, program or for my mom and aunt to speak to him in Tagalog. We' ; re also Filipino. So yeah, I agree. I think it could look different in tangible ways and more abstract ways and relationships as well. Mary Doi: Right and that, that' ; s a new way of thinking for me. So, as a Sansei who is like, " ; What the heck is intergenerational trauma? What does repair look like?" ; I' ; m hopefully making it clear in my own head to me. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah, I love that. Mary Doi: Thank you so much for all of this. Do you have any final thoughts or reflections? Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Let' ; s see. I am... You know, we talk about Kansha a lot, but I am really grateful for past generations and all the work that it took. I know how hard organizing is. So, to pass something like redress or the Civil Liberties Act of this magnitude, I have so much respect for that, it' ; s unfathomable, honestly, and especially you know in today' ; s age, I think. There' ; s still a lot of lessons to learn from the act itself, but also the strategy and the amount of community relationships and organizing and just thought behind being able to pass something like that. I... I don' ; t know, I have high hopes for this country and for us to be able to continue to pass policies that are positively life-changing for folks around things that we' ; ve talked about, like racial injustice or family separation. To me, it does feel very personal too because I have a child now and everything feels different. To be able to pass on these lessons and like the legacy that my grandparents and past generations, it' ; s all like, has been passed down into my son Kai. It' ; s kind of amazing to see. So I, yeah, I am hopeful for the future and what it looks like and all the things we' ; ve learned from that. Mary Doi: Great. Thank you so much, Becky. This was wonderful. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah, thank you all. Mary Doi: Any, any more comments, Kat? Katherine Nagasawa: No, just a lot of appreciation, Becky. And just wanted to say that I had photocopied a bunch of documents to share with you kind of related to your grandpa' ; s application for testimony and some flyers and stuff. And I, I meant to bring them in person when we were going to do the interview in February, but I can either scan them and email them or if you wanted to send me your mailing address I could mail them too. Mary Doi: Oh cool okay. Katherine Nagasawa: But yeah. And then if-- Mary Doi: That' ; s awesome. Katherine Nagasawa: ...you wouldn' ; t mind forwarding the written testimony that Bill sent you, that would be also really interesting to compare the two, the two versions. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah. Thanks, Kat. Great. Katherine Nagasawa: But thank you so much. Mary Doi: And I found something that you may not know, but Studs Terkel interviewed your grandfather in that-- Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah, I have the book. Mary Doi: ..." ; Hope Dies Last" ; . Yeah Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): They spelled his last name wrong, very disappointing, but I do have that. Mary Doi: Yeah, okay. I' ; m glad you have it because it' ; s like, oh, I remember that Studs Terkel interviewed somebody. I' ; m glad it was your grandfather. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): Yeah. It was a good one. But I' ; m like, oh yeah, they spelled his name. O-S-A-K-I. Like so close. But yeah, thank you so much. Mary Doi: Yeah, well, thank you. Rebecca Ozaki (Becky): I was-- Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzakiRebecca20230316.xml OzakiRebecca20230316.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Ozaki, Rebecca (3/16/2023)
Description
An account of the resource
Rebecca Ozaki, a yonsei born and raised in Chicago, discusses her parents' and grandparents' legacy and the impact of their activism and community involvement on her life. She shares memories of her grandparents and her own experiences learning about their incarceration and their role in the redress movement. She reflects on her grandfather, Sam Ozaki's, testimony at the CWRIC hearings at NEIU andrecalls the power of his voice then and in later years. Connecting her family's legacy to her own training as a social worker, her experiences supporting healing circles for isolated aging adults during the pandemic, and her participation in the Japanese American Citizens League and pan-Asian groups such as OCA and Asian American's Advancing Justice, she shares the many ways in which her family has inspired her to engage in community organizing, elder care, and intergenerational healing efforts. Living in what was her grandparents' house and contemplating the future as a new mother, she expresses gratitude for the work of previous generations and hope for future generations.
Date
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2023-03-16
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Ueunten, JJ
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ozawa, Alexander
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzawaAlexander20210624.xml
Interview Keyword
Mixed-race
Manzanar
Tule Lake
Fort Sill
Activism
Nikkei Uprising
Towata, Arthur
Family Separation
Death in Camp
Northwest Suburbs
Tenkatsu Restaurant
Intergenerational Trauma
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/24/2021 Ozawa, Alexander (6/24/2021) 0:39:49 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Mixed-race Manzanar Tule Lake Fort Sill Activism Nikkei Uprising Towata, Arthur Family Separation Death in Camp Northwest Suburbs Tenkatsu Restaurant Intergenerational Trauma Ozawa, Alexander Ueunten, JJ video 1:|20(3)|37(14)|50(7)|64(5)|79(12)|95(11)|108(15)|130(5)|140(8)|152(12)|167(15)|180(8)|196(6)|210(5)|224(1)|237(7)|249(6)|263(7)|277(16)|289(1)|301(1)|311(5)|324(10)|335(5)|346(12)|359(5)|370(2)|381(4)|394(8)|405(7)|417(12)|430(2)|444(12)|462(8)|476(7)|486(6)|499(7)|512(14)|525(5) 0 https://vimeo.com/810339296/91436717f0 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/810339296?h=91436717f0" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Alexander Ozawa is a mixed-race Japanese American born and raised in Chicago's Northwest suburbs. His family’s history during World War II includes incarceration at Manzanar, Tule Lake, and Fort Sill. Post-incarceration, while making their way back to the West Coast from the East Coast, the family settled in Chicago after encountering a large and supportive Japanese American community. In this interview, Alexander discusses family members' reluctance to discuss their wartime experiences, his own experiences growing up mixed-race in a predominantly white community, and his motivations for political activism and solidarity work. He reflects upon his " ; othered" ; identity, instances of prejudice from his youth, and fond memories of attending the annual Ginza Festival. Finding connections both between and within generations, he expresses an appreciation for community and for his peers. JJ Ueunten: Today is June 24th, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Alexander Ozawa. This interview is being recorded by the JA-- JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay. What is your full name? Alexander Ozawa: My full name is Alexander James Ozawa. JJ Ueunten: What' ; s your year of birth? Alexander Ozawa: I was born in 1991. JJ Ueunten: And where were you born? Alexander Ozawa: I was born in Park Ridge, Illinois. JJ Ueunten: And were any members of your family incarcerated during World War II? Alexander Ozawa: Yes, they were. JJ Ueunten: Okay. And if so, what camps were they in? Alexander Ozawa: I' ; m not entirely sure what camps everyone was in. I know for certain that some family members were in Manzanar, Tule Lake and Fort Sill. JJ Ueunten: And, when did your family first come to the U.S.? Alexander Ozawa: Not exactly sure when all of my family came to the U.S. I know it was before my great-grandmother was born in Hawaii. I think that was the previous generation, was born in Japan and had immigrated to the United States. But I know since then some other family members have come from Japan in the previous two generations. JJ Ueunten: And when and how did your family come to live in the Chicago area? Alexander Ozawa: I think it was after World War II and relocation from the internment camps. I know most of my family was relocated to the East Coast. I think it might have been New York. And then they were put on a train out there, and then they wanted to make their way back to California where they were before the camps and I think on the way back from the East Coast to the West Coast, you know, just financially couldn' ; t make it back. So I think once they got to Chicago, my understanding is that there was already an existing Japanese American community here you know that had like, wasn' ; t quite as affected as my family was on the West Coast and a lot of other Japanese Americans were. So I think they met a lot of people here and end up settling and staying. JJ Ueunten: Oh, thank you. Yeah. So I know you mentioned some of the, some of the places that your family was incarcerated in. Do, have you heard kind of any stories about any of, any of those? Alexander Ozawa: Some stories. Because I know from, there' ; s a bit of a generational gap too, of who was incarcerated. So I know my great-grandmother and her generation, along with some of the much younger children that would be like my grandfather' ; s age, were in the camps. But then my grandma, her eldest brother were in Japan at the time, going to school and living with family and friends while the war was happening. So there' ; s a little bit of gap in my understanding of what the experience was like because some of them were so little and a lot of them were older and I didn' ; t get to spend a lot of time with them before they passed to hear stories directly from them. But it sounded like from people that were a lot younger in the camps, that it was a lot of like childhood absence of things like you get to do as a kid. One of my uncles, he went on to be an artist and created a lot of work that was informed by his experience growing up in Manzanar and just, you know, it wasn' ; t the environment that I feel like children should be in anywhere from the sounds of it. Not getting to play with other kids or playing in a limited capacity, not getting together in community and have like the same foundational structure and just kind of feeling... It, I know there was like a feeling of lonesomeness in a way, or like, you know, just absence. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Did, did your uncle who was an artist and, and kind of made work about it, talk about that to you? Or have you like seen his art or how, how do you know what you know? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, that was, that uncle' ; s, Arthur Towata and he did an exhi-- a whole art series on Manzanar, which he brought back I think you know, probably with, like about 20 years ago to the site you know, and brought some of the works there and brought back to California and showed them in other places. But I know he' ; s written several, you know, small pieces and been interviewed about the work where a lot of the colors and things like that are informed by like what the space looks like, where there' ; s you know, a lot of use of like large black blocks in it you know, that represent like the buildings, but also kind of figuring out later on that there' ; s a, a draw to painting like butterflies and dragonflies and a lot of things, you know, like wildlife and insects you see around the camps that as a kid like, is whimsical and you' ; re playing with you know, in the place of like being able to play with other kids in the same way. So it seemed like there' ; s this like, you know, a really long lasting emotional connection in creating things. JJ Ueunten: Mhmm. So he was in Manzanar, like do you know other kind of specific family members that were there? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, my grandfather, George Towata, he was in Manzanar too. He was younger, so I think he was quite young when he was in the camps with great-grandmother. Other family members from my grandmother' ; s side, I' ; m not sure exactly where they were located, but my understanding is it was likely Manzanar? And then I know some people were moved to Tule Lake and there was some family separation just between you know, who like, a lot of the children were U.S. citizens, and then some of the parents were not. So I know some people were moved, grandfather' ; s father was moved to Fort Sill, and then I think that was the last time they ever saw him was then. JJ Ueunten: Do you know, do they kind of know what happened to him or no? Alexander Ozawa: No. I think this is where I' ; m not sure, and I, and it isn' ; t talked about much, I, I don' ; t, what I do know is that there isn' ; t a lot known about his death at Fort Sill, but the understanding is that his life was taken by a soldier, a prison guard, and his remains were never returned to the family, and I don' ; t think details were ever given to the family about what happened. JJ Ueunten: Wow. Alexander Ozawa: So not a lot of recognition. JJ Ueunten: Do you kind of know anything about people moving to Tule Lake or the circumstances around that? Alexander Ozawa: I, I do not. I' ; m not sure when, but I think that some of the family was moved from Manzanar to Tule Lake and I' ; m not, I' ; m not sure why. JJ Ueunten: Thank you. I know you mentioned your great-grandmother was in, born in Hawai' ; i. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Any kind of pre-war things that you know about that you want to share? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know a lot about before the war. I do know that my great-grandmother, they were in Hawaii and they had moved to like the Los Angeles area and were settled there and you know, had a business, had a home before everyone was moved, and they lost all of it at that time. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Yeah, so you mentioned that your, your family like, some of your family like went from camp to the East Coast and then kind of, on their way back to West Coast, like settled here in Chicago. Yeah, anything else that you kind of want to say about that or things that you' ; ve heard about that experience? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know the specifics of what the experience was like for my family to be moved from the camps to the East Coast or what it was like trying to get back to what home was on the West Coast in California. But my understanding is that when they came across Chicago, I think adding to how tough the situation was, you know and probably how heartbreaking it was financially, but also emotionally and you know for so many reasons that the community in Chicago seems like it was really supportive for people. The Japanese community specifically in Chicago like really helped them out a lot and they realized that there' ; s people here you know, that were supporting one another. So I think you know, on being able to find another place that wasn' ; t as hostile as California, I think was a big draw to Calif-- staying in Chicago, but also you know, finding community seemed to be a big part of it, so, I know they became pretty rooted in you know, the area around here too, having, I know my dad always talked about when he was little, he' ; d worked, they had a little tofu factory, so... I can' ; t remember. I think it was Halsted and Aberdeen... I want to say? And then I remember him telling stories about like working there, but I know they had like started a few businesses and I think tried different things. They had a dry cleaners too, which wasn' ; t too far away. And then I know they also, my great-grandmother and my great-grandfather on the Tanaka side, they had a Japanese restaurant, I think it was called Tenkatsu, where my great-grandma worked in front and my great-grandpa worked in the kitchen in the back. JJ Ueunten: Do you know if that was kind of in like Lakeview area too? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, really, really nearby because they all grew up by, I think my dad grew up on Broadway and Barry over there, so not too far away. So it all, it was all pretty nearby to this area. JJ Ueunten: And yeah you, and so your family' ; s pretty much been here, and then you were born in Park Ridge? Yeah. When did they kind of move? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, my, me and my sister were born at Lutheran General Hospital in Park Ridge, Illinois. My dad grew up in Chicago. My mom, who is Caucasian, she grew up in Pekin, Illinois, in centr-- the Central Illinois area. They both met, I think around college and then had both lived in the city for a long time, I think kind of around this area too, around a lot of family that still lived in Chicago. And then before, me and my sister were born in 1989 was when my sister Sarah was born. I was born in 1991. Few years prior to that, they moved out to Prospect Heights, Illinois, and then that' ; s where, where we grew up. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. On, on the form, you mentioned you might be comfortable talking a little bit about the Redress movement. Was your family in-involved in that at all, do you know? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know if they were involved in organizing or any part of the legislation, but I do know that they received reparations and I don' ; t know to what extent, you know, how many people received it. Yeah, not, not very much talked about, but it is something that I know happened that my great-grandmother received it, and then I' ; m not sure to what capacity everyone else also received it for like, the kids... I, but I don' ; t think they were involved in the organizing to-- for Redress. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. And you said they don' ; t talk much about like whether like it meant something or anything like that? Alexander Ozawa: No, not, not so much. I, I feel like it did, but that' ; s also I think, my own assumption that any apology and you know, something does matter and make a difference. But yeah, it, it' ; s not, it hasn' ; t been talked about much with me or my sister to our understanding. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Maybe... I' ; m kind of curious about, it sounds like your family had a lot of kind of Japanese American community here in Chicago. What kind of was your experience growing up? Yeah. Did, did you kind of have connection to Japanese American community? Alexander Ozawa: I think I did have a connection to the Japanese American community, maybe in a more assimilated way though. I grew up really close to all my family who was Japanese American around the Chicagoland area, so they' ; ve always kind of been like an anchor. You know, we always see each other regularly throughout the year, but also like being really little, I remember going to Ginza and that was always like a part of summer. Like summer was associated with like going to Ginza and also just having some activities like practicing Aikido you know, and having some, some smaller like activity based community that was culturally tied, but me and my sister didn' ; t grow up speaking Japanese. We knew maybe a few words when we were really little enough to like say some things we wanted, but never enough to have a conversation and you know, develop into being bilingual in that way. We didn' ; t attend Japanese school, and I think that was more of a conscious decision on, on my dad' ; s part. JJ Ueunten: What, can you say a little bit more about that decision? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know. We, we' ; ve never talked about why we didn' ; t like go to a Japanese school. I think some of it might have been like access too, like for you know, just signing up for it, where it was too, you know what accessibility would work for my folks, but I think... I think a part of it like is my own assumption that it' ; s like kind of protective to just be more American and less Japanese, which you know, is, is a way to keep yourself safe in the face of discrimination and adversity. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Let' ; s see. Well, I' ; m, I' ; m curious, did your dad at all speak Japanese? Alexander Ozawa: No, I don' ; t think so. He definitely doesn' ; t now. (laughs) And I know his sister, my, my aunt she, Amy Ozawa, she understands a bit and can speak a little bit, but I think in that generation, there' ; s a few people that are bilingual, but people don' ; t actively speak it as their, their language at home, I don' ; t think. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. You' ; ve talked a little bit about how kind of a lot things weren' ; t necessarily like discussed about the incarceration. I was wondering if you kind of see any changes of that over the generations, like certain generations being like more or less willing or wanting to talk about it? Alexander Ozawa: I see a difference in wanting to talk about incarceration with younger generations. I feel like a lot' ; s happening with like my peers, like within the group Nikkei Uprising. I feel like having those spaces where people want to talk about it and it feels like healing and in a way to like learn a lot more about ourselves and also history. Within my family, I, I do feel like the older generations that experienced it, I think there' ; s a lot of unaddressed trauma from it and... A, a sense that it' ; s in the past and there' ; s nothing to do to fix it, so why bring back the pain? And it' ; s kind of difficult to bring it up, like not wanting to cause you k-- painful emotions and feelings and memories and a lot of hardship, but also wanting to know more, kind of makes it difficult to figure out like you know, how, how to learn that family history. But as I' ; m getting older, I think I' ; m asking you know, my aunt, my dad and certain people a lot more questions about what happened, but also kind of talking about it in the sense of we' ; re still going through a lot of those things too with you know, the way oppression looks in this country now. And I think opening up that conversation through like modern politics and events is... It, it' ; s a different way of talking about it rather than just saying, " ; What was that like?" ; ' ; cause I think a lot of people don' ; t want to talk about it, or they' ; re not willingly bringing up the conversation. So I think figuring out, like, it' ; s just hard to ask sometimes. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Are, are you finding, like when you ask about it in terms of like things that are happening currently, yeah, how does that kind of change the conversation, or maybe the willingness? Alexander Ozawa: I think, I think a lot of times it like changes the conversation into like looking at, I think one thing that sticks out is talking about Japanese American incarceration and why that' ; s connected to child detention and you know separation of families and immigrant centers in the Southwest and throughout the country. That looking at like those policy and government decisions in a different way. I feel like by having like an empathetical approach to it and then looking back at like, you know, those things did happen to people we know, like some people that are still alive, that are close to us. JJ Ueunten: Are there kind of behavioral patterns that you see in yourself or other people in, in your family that you think are, are or could be connected to kind of, your family' ; s wartime experiences? Alexander Ozawa: I think I' ; ve probably inherited a lot of like personality and behavioral traits from my family. I think we share a lot of the same, same things. Yeah, with avoiding, trying to avoid being too personal, I think there' ; s a lot of lingering scarcity and like need for stability and security that I think comes directly from being, you know, losing your home, your business before relocation and forced detention during the camps. That still kind of exists now. I think from, in a way, being aware that a lot of things are necessities and having things is a privilege too, but wanting to like hold onto your things. I think a lot of times that becomes you know, where... More placed importance on ownership of property, you know, and seeing the value of like, you know, what the cost is to, to keep something or to like achieve something or reach something. I think there' ; s a lot of... Yeah a, a lot of inherited trauma for, for you know, just maintaining resources, which sometimes I feel like can be equated with hoarding and having too many things, but that kind of recognizing that that comes from somewhere. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. I guess like in, in addition to kind of like the trauma or maybe some hard things, like are, are there also kind of like resilience things that you see kind of passed down? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, I think... I' ; d, I' ; d say everyone in my family' ; s pretty tough. (laughs) Yeah, I, I think everyone' ; s really hardworking too, and values that like in a way that what' ; s, I don' ; t know if it' ; s from what happened, but everyone has like, I know that has raised me is incredibly hardworking and diligent and determined. So I think there' ; s a lot of resilience in that, but also looking at... You know, I think a lot of people weren' ; t broken by the experience and decided they weren' ; t going to be broken by it, and you know use that stubbornness to like kind of hold onto the power they had over what they were going to do with their own lives. JJ Ueunten: I wanted to ask too, if, if you wanted to share a little bit about your experiences being like mixed. And yeah. I don' ; t know how you see kind of your, your family' ; s different identities kind of showing up for you or anything around that. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah that' ; s a hard question. It, being, being mixed race is really weird, and I think it' ; s really complicated, and I' ; m still trying to figure it out. I' ; m you know, 29 years old and it still doesn' ; t make complete sense to me for identity, and, you know, just sense of self. I, it, there is a part of it where... I think there' ; s a lot of imposter syndrome no matter what, in lots of different capacities. You know, I' ; m trying to think of how to explain this without like going into, like it' ; s just such an intersectional like issue. I feel like the, that not feeling fully Japanese or not feeling fully white is kind of difficult because I do feel like it' ; s, growing up, it' ; s like, well, what lunch table do you sit at? And not speaking Japanese, not being culturally Japanese, but also ethnically not being either or is a little bit difficult. But at the same time, I feel like that a lot of those conflictions have made it easier to understand and like come to just better thinking about what it' ; s like to be a person and that like, how made up races and how it' ; s just a tool of like white supremacy to pit people against each other from not really knowing like, from not being able to choose a side. Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s something that was really difficult being a kid, and I think now it' ; s still something that' ; s a little confusing to navigate, but, but still something like I' ; m always thinking about. It' ; s not something I think that' ; s ever going to be concretely decided on. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Well, I, I did also kind of want to ask, I, I know you' ; re like pretty involved in certain political things, and I wanted to ask, like, I think you touched on it a little before, but like how, if you see kind of your family' ; s incarceration history or any other parts of the, of your family' ; s history like kind of informing that? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, I think... I think my family' ; s history has definitely informed my politics, but not necessarily influenced my activism. I don' ; t know if this is common with like other Japanese American families, but we, a lot of the more conservative people, they don' ; t talk about politics quite as much. While, me or my sister, a lot of my peers, we like to talk about politics and issues and have difficult discussions. And I think a lot of times that with the older generation, we' ; re not necessarily having difficult discussions. And I' ; m not sure exactly why. I have my own guesses for why that might be, but I think the experience of what my you know, great-grandparents, my grandparents, and my parents have gone through definitely informs why I want to be politically active and just looking at, I feel like history gives a better lens for what' ; s happening now in what we can do. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Yeah, I guess, yeah, I' ; m just curious if, if there' ; s anything that like, we haven' ; t touched on that you want to share that feels important? Alexander Ozawa: Oh, I don' ; t know. JJ Ueunten: That' ; s totally fine. Let' ; s see. Okay, c-can we pause it? [Break] All right. Can you share a little bit about your experiences growing up in Park Ridge? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah. So me and my older sister, Sarah, were born in Park Ridge and grew up in Prospect Heights, which is about 30 minutes northwest of Chicago, still in Cook County. Growing up was really great, had really great parents and they like really provided and did so much for us that like we had like the essential like American kid like childhood. I mean we got to play sports and get into like arts and activities and really explore and figure out like what we liked as people and what like drew us into our curiosities. Like our parents were both like really great at like providing that environment for us, and you know like I think having a strong like family unit, you know there was a lot of like difficulty growing up and like going through our own things, but always felt supported by them. I think you know going to school and being around a lot of other kids, it was a very white area, and I think I didn' ; t realize how you know segregated and different it was for different people. Just growing up in a middle class community and being mixed race, being half white, half Japanese, just kind of thinking I was one of the white kids you know, and it was never the sort of thing of thinking that like I am different and realizing as you get older that like you are treated differently for reasons that you don' ; t fully understand as a kid, but become more apparent and a lot clearer as you become older and look back on it. And I think a lot of that was really hard growing up, is just being othered and being treated in a way that is somewhat tokenized or discriminated against by other kids you know in ways that like don' ; t make sense when you' ; re little. But then realizing that like these are culturally ingrained white supremacist behaviors towards people that you know, no one' ; s taught how to hate other people, but like kids pick up on what their parents do and you know what their neighbors do and what the older kids do. So I think it was really difficult making sense of like not fitting in, being a lot younger and being bullied quite a lot. And it got a lot clearer, I think by the time getting to middle school where kids learn all of these awful words, all these awful things that they don' ; t know how to contextualize and maybe don' ; t have the built empathy yet to know that they' ; re running around like psychopaths you know, saying these things against other people. You know and also partaking in that because of that reason of the way other people spoke to me and spoke to other people and thinking that it is acceptable, normal and forgivable, okay behavior when the case is that is completely isn' ; t-- And I remember the first time that I ever heard the term " ; Jap" ; was in sixth grade in the lunchroom, and one of the few other minority students at my middle school, he was an Indian friend, well, somewhat friend acquaintance. He got upset about something and took out his anger and called me a stupid Jap at the lunchroom table. And I didn' ; t know what it meant, but the way he said it like hurt, and I knew it was wrong and bad, and it just kind of felt a lot different, you know hearing it from someone that you know wasn' ; t doing the like " ; chink eyed expression" ; to me as all the kids called it. You know like actually being direct and coming from another kid that was a person of color kind of threw me off. And immediately, another one of my friends who was white, just looked at me and he was always a good friend, just said like, like what, he' ; s like, " ; Don' ; t let him call you a Jap, you need to like, call him a sand N word." ; And the whole thing just escalated really quickly into this confusion of like I was paralyzed and I couldn' ; t say anything. I didn' ; t know what to do. And I' ; m pretty sure that I ended up like going and hiding somewhere and just left the table without saying anything to anyone. And I think from there like it just got worse as kids got older, got a lot more bold and learned a lot more words. And I think, were a lot more socially competitive in a way that was really difficult. I think at a lot of times of like encountering, you know, there' ; s always going to be a bully. There' ; s always going to be someone that' ; s like flexing their power and you know, trying to dominate everyone and want the attention. And you know for whatever reason, you know like kids are like that. But like continuing through middle school, being called an Asian pig, Jap several times, and one kid did it so often to me in our Spanish class, and he sat right across the desk from me that I was just, would never say anything. I got fed up and I said, " ; You' ; re a piece of white trash." ; And then I think that was kind of the point where like I realized what gaslighting was, where the kid got up and he was always really loud and yelled, " ; That' ; s racist, you' ; re a racist." ; And the whole thing got flipped on me. All these other kids joined in. I said, " ; Well, he' ; s been calling me a Jap and an Asian pig like every day like in this period." ; And I got really mad. And you know, it was the sort of thing where like I tried to not get into scuffles in school, but like it was just difficult like with a lot of people acting like that. And that sort of thing continued for a long time. And I feel like through that it was like really painful. And also I think boys don' ; t really, and still don' ; t, men don' ; t like synthesize emotions at all, and you' ; re not taught to do that. You' ; re supposed to just like give it back to them, you' ; re supposed to like, they call you an epithet, you call them an epithet, you know you just escalate. That, I thought it was okay to be like that and to use words like that against other people because that' ; s just how people were. At a certain point, it was just ingrained and like reprogrammed from peers who weren' ; t actually peers. They were operating from a completely different place and not treating me like I was an equal, and that' ; s something that still like really bums me out. Thinking about it makes me really sad that like I used any of that same language against other people as a kid, just because it became normalized and you know, that' ; s, that' ; s the way you fit in. So I think looking back, that' ; s like really tough to think about. JJ Ueunten: Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I' ; m mean, I' ; m curious if, I don' ; t know if you' ; ve had any kind of support or just, you just figured out what you kind of had to do at that point. Like did you, did you have any, anywhere to kind of talk, talk to or process any of that stuff that was going on? Alexander Ozawa: As, like as a kid? JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah. I think I had support from my parents a lot, family, but I just think like back in the early 2000s, no one was really like paying much mind to some of those issues like it might be now where people are a lot more aware of those things. Like I even had an English teacher, what was her name? Mrs. Thomas. She gave me a pack of origami paper in class and said, " ; You' ; re Japanese, like I bet you like this." ; And I called her out. I' ; m like, " ; Well, that' ; s like, like a bit fucked up." ; I' ; m sorry. " ; That' ; s a bit racist." ; And then I don' ; t think she noticed, and then she came in the next day and apologized. " ; I' ; m like, you' ; re one of the teachers?" ; like I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I' ; ll m-, I' ; ll make a crane, but you don' ; t know that I can do that." ; So I, I think that like schools weren' ; t as equipped and they didn' ; t really like intervene when those things happened. I think it would be more so like a principal might tell a kid that you need to apologize, but not actually like address the situation and find any accountability for it or change like the culture of what the school' ; s like that like this is not a place for like where we' ; re allowed to do that to each other. JJ Ueunten: I mean it, it sounds like you' ; ve really kind of reflected on, on that time a lot and like... Yeah, have kind of like a different perspective about how you go about things. Yeah. Is there anything that you' ; re kind of like willing to share about how... Yeah, how you' ; ve gotten to where you are? Alexander Ozawa: I think it' ; s just a lot of little things to get to like the point of like thinking about... I mean, I guess especially over the last year of what like the uprisings of 2020 looked like for racial justice, you know after the murder of George Floyd and you know, so many other people. And just knowing a lot of these things, and always, always feeling like making noise about stuff was kind of frowned upon by other people, mostly white people or by people that are more conservative. And just dealing with that and just deciding that like it' ; s, it' ; s enough, you know? Like doing, like being inactive and just dealing with like the blows that come from systems and people and places that are like not healthy and like good for anyone. It' ; s better to be active against that. So I think it' ; s just a lot of frustration and a lot of inaction leading to eventually doing more. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. And you kind of talked about kind of how boys and men are socialized and I, I think, yeah, I, I guess I' ; m, I' ; m just kind of... Sorry, I' ; m getting stuck. Alexander Ozawa: It' ; s cool. JJ Ueunten: Just kind of curious about like any of, of your thoughts about that, especially maybe related to being Japanese or maybe not. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah... Yeah I think socialization' ; s really weird and I don' ; t, like I' ; m trying to think of how to like clarify my thoughts on it. I feel like they' ; re a little all over the place. Yeah, I, I feel like for like the socialization of like specifically boys in like American culture, we' ; re just not taught emotional intelligence in a structured way or really in any way. And I feel like it would be really beneficial, you know, especially if we are in like intersectional places where like not everyone looks the same. Not everyone speaks the same languages, people don' ; t speak the same food-- eat the same foods, you know like-- There' ; s just like people are different and like that' ; s okay. Like we are all just people still. And I feel like some of that is cultural, and I feel like that' ; s something that' ; s like not specific to just like white supremacist American culture, but it' ; s also, like I feel like looking at like Japanese culture, there' ; s like such an emphasis on men and boys and in that position too, like I don' ; t know, you know, where the overlap is, but I feel like that is generally like a cross-cultural issue... That I wish I had more answers to, like... I just think some of it like isn' ; t talked about. It, I feel like is dismissed on like the American side of things in like our broader culture. But then on the Japanese side, I feel like things aren' ; t often talked about, and I don' ; t really want to say that in the way that it' ; s part of that like silent, model minority myth sort of way. I just think that it' ; s, it' ; s just not talked about from my experience you know that like the, the firstborn son gets the inheritance, gets the name, gets the all these things. I just feel like there' ; s a lot of like crossovers that are like really dominating on both sides. And I have an older sister, so it' ; s like, you know it' ; s like, " ; Well, it all goes to her then if you set these rules." ; JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Yeah. I, I guess I don' ; t have much more to ask. I don' ; t know any, any I guess, again, is, is there any kind of other things that you' ; d like to share? Alexander Ozawa: I guess the one thing I feel is really important is, just like still having time with like older family members and still having like that sense of community feels really important, but also having like this younger group of peers that are like really politically active and care a lot and do a ton of like social solidarity work, I feel like is like coming from two different directions on like identity and like looking at like being Japanese American and as a culture of like what our ancestors and people have gone through, but also what we' ; re trying to do now has felt like really important. So just really appreciate like you know, everyone that' ; s reaching out to other groups and, and working in solidarity. JJ Ueunten: Cool. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzawaAlexander20210624.xml OzawaAlexander20210624.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
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Ozawa, Alexander (6/24/2021)
Description
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Alexander Ozawa is a mixed-race Japanese American born and raised in Chicago's Northwest suburbs. His family’s history during World War II includes incarceration at Manzanar, Tule Lake, and Fort Sill. Post-incarceration, while making their way back to the West Coast from the East Coast, the family settled in Chicago after encountering a large and supportive Japanese American community. In this interview, Alexander discusses family members' reluctance to discuss their wartime experiences, his own experiences growing up mixed-race in a predominantly white community, and his motivations for political activism and solidarity work. He reflects upon his "othered" identity, instances of prejudice from his youth, and fond memories of attending the annual Ginza Festival. Finding connections both between and within generations, he expresses an appreciation for community and for his peers.
Date
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2021-06-24
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video
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Series: Oral History Project
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41d2bf90352ad19d3017ec289404821f
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Saiki, James
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaikiJames20180719.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Hawaii
Kauai
Agriculture
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Church of Christ Presbyterian
United States Army
Housing Discrimination
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
CNAA
OHMS Object Text
5.4 7/19/2018 Saiki, James (7/19/2018) 1:40:37 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Hawaii Kauai Agriculture 442nd Regimental Combat Team Church of Christ Presbyterian United States Army Housing Discrimination Chicago Nisei Athletic Association CNAA Saiki, James Takada, Anna video 1:|18(12)|34(12)|47(7)|62(3)|72(8)|83(8)|94(16)|111(4)|123(5)|129(11)|144(5)|153(7)|165(5)|174(6)|184(4)|195(7)|200(10)|207(11)|216(8)|223(1)|234(2)|251(10)|261(9)|274(8)|286(3)|303(10)|311(10)|318(9)|330(11)|340(13)|350(12)|357(7)|364(1)|372(10)|385(6)|395(3)|409(12)|427(16)|441(7)|455(5)|469(10)|476(12)|486(12)|499(3)|513(6)|524(11)|534(8)|543(6)|560(2)|570(7)|584(3)|594(6)|603(14)|618(5)|627(6)|646(6)|659(7)|666(7)|676(7)|692(6)|706(12)|717(1)|730(4)|744(8)|753(11)|761(4)|779(6)|798(3)|808(8)|815(10)|824(1)|843(4)|852(7)|861(11)|876(3)|900(1)|907(7)|921(15)|934(5)|945(3)|964(9)|973(3)|980(12)|993(10)|1005(13)|1019(3)|1032(13)|1047(1)|1059(5)|1067(5)|1075(14)|1086(5)|1101(6)|1112(4)|1125(6)|1133(7)|1141(6)|1147(14)|1153(10)|1162(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/601297759/fc783b74c1 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601297759?h=fc783b74c1" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; James Saiki, a nisei born and raised in Hawaii, describes his parents' immigration from Yamaguchi prefecture and his experiences growing up as one of nine siblings on a farm in Wailua, Kauai. Eight years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed, he recalls singing patriotic songs at school, the departure of an older brother to serve with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, and his lack of awareness of the incarceration of Japanese Americans on the mainland. Joining the U.S. Army after just one year at the University of Hawaii, he received training as a laboratory technician before serving in the Korean War, followed by two years stationed in Tokyo. After his discharge from the army, he studied in Phildelphia before joining his brothers in Chicago to work and study at Northwestern University. He reflects on his involvement with the Church of Christ Presbyterian and the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association and expresses a hope that his descendants will continue a family tradition of caring and hospitality. James Saiki: How, how about the volume? You want me to speak louder, or... Anna Takada: No, you can, just like this is fine. James Saiki: Okay. Anna Takada: Okay. This is an interview with James Saiki as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History project. The interview is being conducted on July 19th, 2018, at about 1:00 PM in the afternoon at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. James Saiki is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you just state your name?f James Saiki: My name' ; s James T. Saiki. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? James Saiki: I was born on April 3rd, 1932 in Wailua, Kauai, Hawaii. Anna Takada: So like I mentioned, we' ; ll be starting by hearing more about your family. So can you tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe where and when they were born? James Saiki: Okay, both my mom and dad are from Yamaguchi prefecture in Japan. My dad came to Hawaii in 1905 to work for the sugar plantation, and mom was a picture bride who married my dad in 1915. Anna Takada: They were both from the same prefecture? James Saiki: Yes. Anna Takada: And what were their names? James Saiki: My dad' ; s name is Yasutaro, and my mom' ; s, Nui, N-U-I. Anna Takada: And, and so your, your dad worked on a sugar plantation. And then, do you know any more details about what his life was like or the work that he was doing? James Saiki: Yeah. Well originally he came as a worker on a sugar plantation, and later on as a part-time job we had 10 acres of rice farm, and we also did truck crops. So, but this was a part-time, both mom and dad worked full-time, and, well, mom had nine children, so for 20 years she was pregnant or caring, taking care of a youngster. Anna Takada: Wow. And can you tell me about your, your siblings and the rest of your family? How many, so you said there were nine? James Saiki: There were nine of us. I had two, two brothers and then a sister, and then six, six of us boys after, after that. Anna Takada: Wow. James Saiki: Yeah. So when the war broke out, I think all eight of, no, seven of us, one brother was in Honolulu, but all the rest were on the island of Kauai. Anna Takada: And your eldest sibling, do you remember what year they were born? James Saiki: My eldest, I would think he was born in 1917 or ' ; 18. And then all the rest two years after that, about two, two and a half years intervals. Anna Takada: Wow. So there was quite an age difference then between you and your eldest sibling, then? For example. James Saiki: Right. So we' ; re two years apart, so my brother above me is two and a half years, and my other brother, my youngest brother is three and a half years. And all the rest, they' ; re about, between, I' ; d say two years difference in age. Anna Takada: And can you tell me what it was growing up in Kauai? James Saiki: Well, being you know farmers, most of my activities were spent on a farm, very little social or vacation time. So my younger life, up until high school, was mainly devoted on the farm. Of course, I went to school, and being a farmer, part-time farmers, we had to work after school, on holidays, and weekends. So I used to, not hate, but I didn' ; t care for holidays because that meant work and I barely missed school because that means I had to work if I' ; m home. So... Anna Takada: Did you prefer one to the other, like school over, over working, or... James Saiki: Oh yeah. Prefer, yeah, school because it' ; s much easier. (laughs) Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so as a child, what were some of your responsibilities on the farm? James Saiki: Well, you know, I, I can recall when the war broke out in 1941, I was eight and a half years old, on a Sunday, and we were working on a vegetable farm. We were growing cucumbers, tomatoes, beans, and some eggplant, I think. So my life as a youngster until high school was mainly working on the farm. Anna Takada: So it sounds like you probably didn' ; t have much time for other activities. James Saiki: Right, yeah. Very little, no movies, of course no television and all that thing. And my, and my home was on the rice farm until I was six years old. I think in 1938 we built a new home. But my original home that I was born and grew up was no electricity, no plumbing. Anna Takada: Was that pretty standard? James Saiki: What' ; s that? Anna Takada: Was that pretty standard on the island? James Saiki: No, just in the valley where the rice farms were. There were about seven or eight farmers and we had no, no electricity or plumbing. Anna Takada: And was your family religious at all? James Saiki: Well, they were active in the Buddhist church, so until I became a Christian, I, when they asked me, I would say Buddhist as my religion. Of course I knew very little about the religion, it was more like I went there for activities. Anna Takada: So was there, was there a temple in your town then? James Saiki: Yes, there was one, one that-- Well, where I grew up, there were two, two different Buddhist sects. Anna Takada: And, and how about language in the households? What languages-- James Saiki: Well, mom and dad spoke Japanese, and I spoke very little Japanese, mainly English or what they call pidgin English, which was a mixture of Japanese, Hawaiian, and different languages. And I usually communicated with mom and dad in that type of language. So it was very difficult, because when I was, when the war broke out, they closed all the temples and the language school. So I went only one hour a day after the English, English classes, one hour of language, yeah. One hour a week. And sometime four hours on Saturday. So my, my Japanese was very poor. And, and the, the unique thing is that in home we' ; d speak Japanese, broken Japanese. My, my, my siblings were better because they were older and went, had more education in Japanese language. But so we would communicate in Japanese to mom and dad and, and we spoke, we' ; d communicate strictly English with my siblings. And once we left home out of the door, it was complete English, no, no Japanese. Anna Takada: And so you mentioned going to school, working, and then also language school. Can you tell me a little bit more about what schooling and your education was like as a, as a child? James Saiki: My grammar school? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. James Saiki: I guess you know, it' ; s no different than the schools today. I think even high school, of, of course we didn' ; t have in high school, a, a facility that, you know, modern facilities. Thinking back, I graduated in 1950, so no computers or that, that type of educational sources you know? Anna Takada: And how about classmates and, and some of your peers, were other folks, were they also from parents who had immigrated to the U-- or to Kauai? James Saiki: I think that my Japanese friends were, and their parents was similar to my parents. And then, we were the majority, of course. And then there was quite a few Filipinos, and, and they came from the Philippines, of course. Chinese, Koreans, Portuguese, Puerto Rican. And originally all of them came during that era to work on the plantations. And so their family upbringing was similar to mine. Anna Takada: And so you were, when the, when the war broke out, you were still pretty young? James Saiki: Yes, I was eight and a half years old, and I, I still remember, because we' ; re working on farm and my neighbor came over and said, " ; The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and we' ; re at war." ; But myself and my siblings did not... I think they just practicing, because you know we had no radio on the farm. And then it wasn' ; t until noontime when we went back to the home and listened to radio that we realized that you know the war actually broke out. So... Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember your reactions, or ... James Saiki: Being at that age, I don' ; t recall you know any dramatic... In fact, I think at that time, prior to that time, I guess Dad always, would listen to the radio about Japan with China and Shang--. And I think I kind of felt that I was for Japan, because they were doing well as far as the war was concerned. And it wasn' ; t ... Probably a year or two after that and I realized what really happened about the war. And then of course my brother, six months after, volunteered for the four four sec-- World War II. So we got more, more involved with the American, you know forces in the war. And so... Anna Takada: Why do you think that was that you were, as a child, kind of, I guess maybe sympathizing more with Japan? James Saiki: With Japan? Well, I guess because of mom and dad, you know they were... But I think you know, once the war broke and we went to school and you know, the teachers told us what' ; s happening, so I had a better understanding of what' ; s happening. So, since that time I have no feeling for Japan. I was anti... I was so-called pure American. Singing American songs, war songs, and participating in the, buying, what they call that, bonds and saving stamps. Anna Takada: Yeah. Can, can you explain some of those things? Or maybe what changed after the start of the war for you? Like in your life, what were some of the things that changed? James Saiki: Well, of course, you know, initially on the first night, my, my brother being, my eldest brother, being a scout master, getted all the young boys to go over the, go around the neighborhood to inform them about the blackout, you know, no lights and cover your windows. And then, I remember my older siblings helped to put up barbed wire barriers along the beaches. And then I guess we started, we all had to carry a gas mask with us to school and all the time. And, and then we had to build what they called air raid shelters in the backyard to protect us if there was bombing or anything. Other than that, well you know the American soldiers came to our area camp, they had big camps and, and that' ; s, that was about my only, my first exposure to white or Caucasians. And then my brother, working in the area where there was a big camp, made friends with some of the soldiers and would invite them over for weekends. And then from that time talking to them, I got to learn what mainland America was, and stateside. Until then, you know it was merely book and had no idea about... Anna Takada: So it sounds like there were a lot of, I guess you could say like war efforts or you know things that were even passed down to children to help out with, like you mentioned... or maybe not children, but just young people. So you mentioned your brother helped like notifying people about blackouts or putting up barbed wire. Do you know where, where that was, like where those tasks had been coming from or delivered from? Like, was there a, an Army instruction or something to have people help with this? Or where would that have been coming from, those directions? James Saiki: I' ; m not too sure. I think it was mainly from the, I guess you call it civil defense organizations, not, not from direction from the Army, but they directed them what to do, what things they can do to help the war effort, yeah. It was interesting because, un, unlike stateside, the prejudice toward the Japanese was not as severe. I guess one of the reasons is that we were the majority, we were 40%, nearly 40% of the population. So as I can remember, the first, maybe not even a year, they would you know, call us names and kind of discriminate a little. But being the majority, if they got you know nasty, we would beat them up because... Yeah. I remember fighting with some of my classmates in, if they were extremely discriminatory or say something bad about me, I would take them on. And we being farmers who were stronger, physically you know stronger than the city folks, so... Anna Takada: Were you going to school in the city then? James Saiki: Yes. There only one school in our area. It was, yeah. That' ; s interesting too because it was I think a little over five miles, and there was no train station. So we walked to school, to school and back home, about five miles barefooted. Anna Takada: Do you remember those walks? James Saiki: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, we did things on the way walking. Anna Takada: Like what, what were some of those things? James Saiki: We would often walk along the sugar plantation railroad tracks, and we would pick up the sugar cane that fell off the carts and eat those. For me, that was a delicacy, that was candy for me, because we weren' ; t, you know we couldn' ; t afford buying candy or ice cream or things like that so... Anna Takada: And would you do that commute with your siblings? James Saiki: I' ; m sorry? Anna Takada: Would you walk that commute with your siblings? James Saiki: No, I, I just walked with my neighbor, who was my classmate, and just my two brothers above me. Because you know the, the rest of the seven' ; s already out of high school and working. So when the war broke out, it' ; s actually... My, my brother that served in World War II, he just graduated. And then, so there was one, two, three, only four of us in high school or low grades, and three older siblings were out of school and working. Anna Takada: So I apologize, because I, I keep taking us on some tangents, but before we continue, it would be great if you could tell me, just tell me the names of your siblings, maybe in, in the order so that we can just start using their names. So what was, what was, starting with your eldest brother, what was his name? James Saiki: Harry. Anna Takada: And then... James Saiki: I had names for all of them. Harry, I consider that he was fatherly. And then my second brother was Edward, and he was hospitality. And my third, my sister, Kay, motherly, was like a, like a mother to me. And then Mamoru. I think he' ; s the only one that didn' ; t have an English name. And he was in business, so I call him the entrepreneur. And then came Charles, and he was patriotic, because he served in the 442. And then George, George was a, a protector. He protected me and he helped me. I was the closest to him. And then Robert, who was two years older than I, we had many friendly skirmishes, so... And he was a fighter, he was known as a fighter. In the Navy they used call his nickname as Ricey, from being a rice farmer. And then my you-- my youngest sibling, who' ; s two and a half years younger than, I consider him the baby. Anna Takada: And what was his name? James Saiki: Clifton. Anna Takada: Do you know why your parents gave all of you except for-- James Saiki: I don' ; t think it' ; s my parents. I think either my sister or some of the friends. Anna Takada: Gave the English names? James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: So they give us English name and middle Japanese name. So do you have a Japanese name? James Saiki: Yeah. T stands for Tamotsu. Anna Takada: Thank you. I' ; m, I' ; m just hoping that this way now we can refer to your siblings by name, and now I have the order, so I' ; ll know who you' ; re talking about. And I' ; ll know their, the words you attached to them too. So I' ; d, I' ; d like to kind of go back. So we had just talked about your commute to school, and before that you mentioned how there wasn' ; t a whole lot of prejudice towards you or, or other you know, Japanese classmates because it, there were so many, but you did mention that sometimes you got into a little bit of trouble. I' ; m wondering if you can tell me about... Like if you remember any instance of, of getting in a conflict with somebody or w--, or what that was like? James Saiki: Well, I, I think the only type of conflict was you know calling us names, Japs, and things like that. That type of discriminating things, not the real... There weren' ; t any real strong discrimination because being you know, a mixture of nationalities, we, we I think we are like a melting pot, so we got along very well, the families. So, as I mentioned, there was very few discriminatory problems as far as I can remember. Maybe others might have a different... Anna Takada: And I' ; m wondering if you can tell me more about the wartime period, and some of your family' ; s experiences during the war. Which, which of your brothers was the scout leader? James Saiki: My oldest brother. Anna Takada: Harry? So what were some of the other things that... Like maybe if your family was impacted by the war, how, how did life change during the war, if at all? James Saiki: You know ironically, for my family, economically and otherwise, I think it was good, because on the farm the, the vegetables, we had better price for the vegetables, and we had very good price for the rice, especially the mochi rice, you know the sweet rice, because they, they couldn' ; t import any here. So, those prices you know, were 10 times what they used to be. So, in that sense, economically we did much better. Anna Takada: Who were, who were kind of like the customers or who was buying from your family' ; s farm? James Saiki: I think the rice we... The wholesalers you know bought the whole crop. The vegetables, there was an organization called Farmers Co-op or something of that sort. And so, they bought most of the vegetables. And I think very few stores, or they weren' ; t that many markets or stores anyway. They bought some of it, but the majority of the crops were sent to this one big co-op. And I guess they distributed to the markets or homes that wanted to buy some. Anna Takada: So you said economically things kind of picked up for your family? James Saiki: I, I think so, because prior to the war it was very difficult, pre-depression era. And so, as a family... I, I didn' ; t realize it, but I always thought you know we were well-to-do. We had food, you know, but economically, I, I found out that Mom and Dad and, and my sib-- older siblings they really struggled, because Dad be coming to Hawaii to earn some money and go back home, decided to stay in Hawaii. So he felt, and being the eldest son, he felt obligated to support his family in Japan. So, I heard that the majority of our earnings were sent to Japan, and my dad was able to build a very nice home for his younger brother and, and the family in Japan. And those things I didn' ; t realize you know until I became over in high school and talking to them. And I, I even found out at one time that a lot of times the crop was put on consignment, so that they could get loans and things, which I, I never realized that. And then my eldest brother didn' ; t finish... I think eighth or ninth grade he, he quit school and worked for what they called a CCP, conservational organization, which did plant trees and one of, I guess, Roosevelt' ; s programs. So, so he did that, but even not having the education he was the wisest of our family. He took care of all the nitty, nitty-gritty things. And, and so, I really respect... He was more like a father to me. That' ; s why I called him my father. And my second brother, when the war broke out, he, he was good in sheet metal, so he went to work at Pearl Harbor you know. And of, of course you know being... Sugar cane and pine, pineapple were the big industry, and so, every summer we all worked on the pine, in the pineapple fields, harvesting pineapples. And my sister and my mom worked in the pineapple cannery, in which all my female... My girlfriends all worked every summer in the pineapple cannery, which was a good source of income. Anna Takada: And you said the rest of your siblings at that time were still in school. Is that right? The oldest three were in... James Saiki: Well, well, there were two above me, above me and myself. I guess four of us were you know, still in school. My, the brother above me... two above me graduated in 1946. Anna Takada: That' ; s George? James Saiki: Yes, George. And he was the first... We didn' ; t have a high school at our school then. And he was the first graduate there. And I graduated five years after him in 1950. So most, most of our... The younger siblings participated in some of the sports activities. And even that was limited, because my eldest brother wanted us not to go to practice but come back home to work. But my, my brother George, he was, he wasn' ; t that big, not much bigger than I am, you know 140-145 pounds, but he was a good football player. He was one of the best line players. And then my, the brother above me and myself, we all participated in football. And I think I was the only one that participated in basketball and baseball to try to get out of work. (laughs) Anna Takada: And so, it sounds like it was, you know it wasn' ; t an unusual, let' ; s say, like schooling experience during the war if you' ; re participating in sports. James Saiki: You know I, I can' ; t recall anything different, except you know, singing war songs, and buying stamps to support the economy... I forgot what they called it, war, war bonds or something. And I' ; m not too sure how that helped. Anna Takada: Do you remember any of the songs that you sang? James Saiki: Well, the most popular one, " ; Let' ; s Remember Pearl Harbor" ; . So we, I remember in grammar school we would almost always sing the song at the opening of class. Anna Takada: So, it was something that at school you had-- James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: So I, I would, I' ; d be interested in hearing about... So you said Charles served in the 442, in the 442nd, your brother Charles? James Saiki: Did I hear about it? Anna Takada: No. I' ; m just confirming that Charles was the one who served. James Saiki: Right. Anna Takada: And did you say there was another brother that also served? James Saiki: The other brother, I think it was occupational time in Japan. He was, did some interpreting, MIS. Anna Takada: And which brother was that? James Saiki: And then, and then the other brother was just occupational in Japan. That was in ' ; 47 after the war ended ' ; 46. No, or earlier than that. I' ; m not sure. Bu they, so, both of them served there. And then the brother above me and myself served in the Korean War. And then my younger brother stayed stateside, he didn' ; t... Anna Takada: Do you know how old your brothers were when they went into the military service? James Saiki: Well, my, the one that went to 442 was out of high school. So, he must have been 18 at the most, probably 18 plus, I think. And then... Anna Takada: And would you happen to remember the year that he joined? James Saiki: 1942 probably in the... That' ; s when they first you know, called for volunteers, and he volunteered right away. And it was interesting. In his interview he mentioned one of the reasons he volunteered right away is to get out of work. And wow, that' ; s funny. (laughs) Anna Takada: You two have that in common, you know making the excuses to get out of work. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you remember your either your feelings or maybe your, your parents' ; feelings about serving in the 442nd? Or, or just gener-- James Saiki: No, no I, I don' ; t think they had any objections. You know, they weren' ; t too expressive about their relationship with Japan. I' ; m sure they still had you know, deep you know ties and feelings about Japan, but they realized you know, it was wrong what they did. And so, I guess they got semi-Americanized. But I don' ; t hear them expressing outright feelings. But of course, when my brother was in, in the war, of course you know, they were worried about his life, and you know... Anna Takada: Did you share any of those concerns or, or have any particular feelings about it, as a younger brother? James Saiki: I' ; m sorry. What was that? Anna Takada: Did you have any particular feelings about your brother serving, like as a, as his kid brother? James Saiki: Oh yeah. Yeah. I was very proud of him serving, yeah. You know, one interesting thing, I don' ; t know if I should mention about like my wife being in California and put into concentration camps. I had very little knowledge of that going on. But later I found out that one of my classmate' ; s dad was put in camp, and another friend from the other part of the island, his dad was-- her dad was put in camp. Of course, all the Buddhist ministers, the teachers, and some of the more politically involved people, they were in business or community groups, they were, many were put in camp, like the, those in the, in California, which I didn' ; t realize. And I didn' ; t realize they were put in camp until my brother, who was training in Mississippi, went one weekend to visit my aunt and my cousin who were in Jerome, Arkansas. And he went to visit them there, and then he wrote to us. And that' ; s the first time I realized that my aunt and cousins were in camp. And then even at, at... It didn' ; t struck me what a camp was like, you know until recently when you know everything was brought out... But they had a camp in Honolulu too, which, which I didn' ; t find out ' ; till about two years ago. And I used to pass that camp, because my sister lived about two miles from the camp. And nobody knew anything about it... Anna Takada: So, in your own community, you didn' ; t know of any community leaders who had been-- James Saiki: Well, just one of my classmates' ; . Yeah. And then of course the, the Buddhist priests and teachers, I knew they were yeah, taken away. Other than that, I didn' ; t realize that there were several other leaders were put in a small camp, even on our, our island. Yeah. Probably more because I was too young to you know... But I, I don' ; t think even the other older people didn' ; t realize it, because they never talked about or mentioned anything. Anna Takada: But it sounds like there was still... Because it, it was your, your family, extended family, that was on the mainland. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: So, but they had, they hadn' ; t been in touch with your parents? It was just through, through your brother? James Saiki: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you know how he, how did he know where to find them? Or how did he... James Saiki: Well, you know, I think this has been already documented, but the 442 were made up a large number from Hawaii, and half or a portion from the stateside, from camp and all that. And somehow the Hawaii boys' ; lifestyle and things were much different from the mainland Japanese. So, they, they got into a lot of conflict because... And then when they went to camp, to visit the camp, they hadn' ; t realized why the stateside or mainland Japanese, were that type of... you know, what their feeling were, why they act a certain way. And so, after that they bonded very close, you know. Anna Takada: Can you explain what some of those conflicts might have been? James Saiki: Well, you know the Hawaii boys, they loved to... they were loud, liked to drink, they liked to gamble. And, and they were... I guess they said, because our parents and the, the parents from Hawaii usually sent money to them, so they had more money to spend on beer and gambling. Whereas the stateside, their family were in camp and they had no income or anything, so they couldn' ; t send them money because they had very little spending money. So, but that, that' ; s an interesting story about what they went through. So, I heard that they always had big fights prior to you know, knowing what has happened to their parents here. Their parents were in camp and they volunteered to serve, you know? Anna Takada: Was there any other communication, or do you remember any other communication with your brother while he was serving during the war? James Saiki: No, mainly where he was and... So he wasn' ; t you know up on the front line. He was in the service committee, so he was, did a lot of transporting. So he didn' ; t do actual hand-to-hand combat. Anna Takada: So through this, through the war time you were still in school... And then, can you tell me about your memories of the, the war ending, and, and what that was like where you were at in time? James Saiki: You know the, the only thing that I can think of is, I was happy because my brother you know didn' ; t get hurt and would be coming back. Other than that, I can' ; t recall being... Of course, you know, I was happy that the war ended, but I don' ; t recall doing any celebration or anything. Anna Takada: It didn' ; t really affect you that much? James Saiki: Not that much, yeah, except for my brother. Anna Takada: Mhmm, and what year did you graduate high school? James Saiki: 1950. Anna Takada: And, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences after, after school? You mentioned that you served in the Korean War. James Saiki: Yeah. Yeah. After I graduated, I went one year to the University of Hawaii, and then I volunteered to serve in the Army for three years. One of the reasons is because they, they guaranteed me to go to medical... not medical school, medical lab school. So, I felt, I volunteer, that I was safe from the Korean War. So I' ; ll go stateside, learn to be a lab tech, and serve in a big hospital stateside. And if I was shipped overseas, which I, after I graduated the first thing is overseas assignment. Said, " ; Ah, I' ; ll probably be in Tokyo at a large hospital." ; Nothing doing, Tokyo, Korea. Yeah. Anna Takada: So you, are you saying that some of your college plans were based around trying to... James Saiki: Well, most of my college peers didn' ; t do what I did, because to stay in school and maintaining your grade points, you are exempt from being drafted. I wasn' ; t in that category, so, so I volunteered to get my choice of you know... Anna Takada: Okay. I, I apologize, because I don' ; t know too much about the draft for, for that particular war. But-- James Saiki: Oh, yeah. Once, once you' ; re 18, 19, they had a lottery and they keep drafting people. And few were exempt, like going to school, or... I, I forget what the other categories were, they were not in the draft pool. So, they tried to maintain their qualification to be non-draftable and go to school. Anna Takada: But, but why weren' ; t you exempt if you were in school? James Saiki: Well, my grades weren' ; t that good. (laughs) Anna Takada: Okay. So, then what happened? Where, where did you go? James Saiki: Then I took my training in Honolulu for 16 weeks, and then I went to Fort Sam Houston for half a year of medical technology training. When I graduated from there, I got my orders assignment. It was the Far East, and then... Anna Takada: And what year was that? James Saiki: That was in 19... I was, I volunteered in 1952, in February. And I took my training, and then I went to stateside for six months. So, when I was in Korea, it was January or February of ' ; 53. That was six months prior to the armistice. So, I served in Korea for six months while we are still at war. And then, after the war ended, I immediately put in for transfer to Japan. And fortunately, I got it right away. So, I spent two years in Japan, in Tokyo, working in a, in the largest lab of the Far East. So, that was a good experience for me. Anna Takada: Why, what drove you to want to be located there? James Saiki: Well, being downtown Tokyo and in a very well-known lab school, lab outfit. Yeah. So, there were a lot of interesting work to be done there, to learn more. Anna Takada: Do you remember... I' ; m just a little curious to hear about maybe your first impressions, because that was probably the first time you' ; d ever gone to Japan. Was, was it the first time you' ; d ever been to Japan? James Saiki: Yes. Well, no, no. I, I was in Japan in 1934 when I was two years old. Mom took me because I was a baby yet. So, I was the only one in the family that went to Japan until the war. Anna Takada: Wow. And so why did she... What was the reason for the trip? James Saiki: I think one of the reasons... I' ; m not too sure, but I thought it was because of her health. That Dad wanted her to go, you know from 1932 from 1915. So, there was quite a few years. So, I think for those two reasons she went back and she took me with her. I, I recall very little of that trip. Very little. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So then, as a, as an adult going to Japan, what was that like for you as a Japanese American from Hawaii? James Saiki: Yeah, yeah. Well, I was there you know just post Korean War, so things weren' ; t as you know it is today. There were still... There weren' ; t that many big stores, or you know. Because when I went back in 2010, about eight years ago, seven years ago, I couldn' ; t even recognize downtown Tokyo. It was so modern and all that. Anna Takada: And you were there you know, very close to the, the war as well. James Saiki: Yeah. They weren' ; t that many you know, modern facilities, even, even the trains, you know? Anna Takada: And, so, I' ; m sorry. You said it was six months that you were in Japan? James Saiki: In Kor--, in Korea. Anna Takada: In Korea. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: And how long were you in Japa-- James Saiki: Until the war ended. Yeah. Anna Takada: And how long were you in Japan? James Saiki: About two years. Almost two years. So, you know my, my three years service was... And I had an oppor-- they wanted me to ree-- reenlist for three more years, but I debated, I almost did. Then I said, " ; Oh, no, I' ; d rather go home." ; Anna Takada: And in this lab outfit, what kind of work were you doing? James Saiki: I was in a very different section. I was in parasitology, doing, studying parasites, examining for parasites. And the interesting thing is that we did some work out in the country, in the rice fields, to eradicate the snails that were the carriers for these parasites. And so, we tested chemicals and see how effective it was to kill the, the snails that harbored the parasite. So, we would go like a month, month trip out to the countryside, stay in a nice hotel, good food, and do very little work. (laughs) But back in the main lab, what I had to do was to examine mostly feces and check to see what type of parasites were, medic-- for medical reasons, for treatments, all that. And it was... I don' ; t know what the word to use, but because in Japan, in the Far East, there were, people were infected with all type of parasites. And so, stateside, you know, when you do it, you hardly find anything. But there, every specimen you are bound to find something. So, that made it interesting. Anna Takada: Was there a particular reason that you... Because it sounds like this was related to your one year at University of Hawaii, like in, I guess if you can call it medicine. Is that what you would call it? I' ; ll start there. Was, what inspired you to take up that study, or that, that role? James Saiki: Well, you know, ever since I was young, I was, aspired to be a doctor. So, and so, when I went to the university, I realized I, I don' ; t think I, I' ; ll make it. So, the next best thing to be is some kind of occupation in the hospital. So, I, I found out this lab technology, lab tech you know to do the testing of blood and all that. So, that, that' ; s the reason I went in this field and I did it in the army and I got discharged and I continued technical so... And when I finished that, I, I started for the last 40 years in the hospital. Anna Takada: So, you continued and you were doing some of that work in Japan. And then, you decided to... James Saiki: Continue, yeah. Anna Takada: But to leave Japan. You decided to leave Japan. James Saiki: Oh yeah, to be discharged, yeah. Anna Takada: Rather, versus reenlisting. So, what, what year was that? And where, where did you end up going? James Saiki: I, I got discharged in December of ' ; 54. It was not quite three years. February would have been my three years commitment. Anna Takada: And did you go back to Hawaii, or-- James Saiki: Right. So, I stayed there until September of that year, which is ' ; 54, I guess. And I, since I was home, I helped on the farm again trying to, trying to decide what to do. Anna Takada: And then, so what was the next moment to get out of there? James Saiki: And then, yeah, and I wanted to see the rest of stateside. So, I found a school the furthest east and I found one in Philadelphia. So, I went to school there to get my lab tech certificate. Anna Takada: What school was that in Philadelphia? James Saiki: It was called the Franklin School of Arts and Science. It was, it was a technical school. It was a one year program, which I did, studied how to become a lab technician. And I also took x-ray course there. But the interesting thing also, being a lab tech in the army, which I had a lot of training, the technical school was... Well, not a waste of time, but I knew all what they' ; re teaching. In fact, I almost thought that I could teach the teachers, in fact. (laughs) Many a times they would ask me to make the exam for the students. Anna Takada: Wow. And was that your first time states, in the states? James Saiki: Well, besides you know, coming to Texas to... Anna Takada: For training. James Saiki: Lab, lab school in the army. So, the, the only thing, place I saw while in the statesides was San Antonio, Texas. And I embarked from Seattle. I stayed in Seattle for about a month. But, but from Texas, I, I took the Greyhound and went all up to California to visit my aunt and the cousins in Sacramento and then went up to. Anna Takada: Okay. So, I didn' ; t realize you, you actually, you had spent a bit of time on the mainland. James Saiki: Yeah. But not really you know sightseeing, or... Anna Takada: Mhmm. Can you tell me about a little bit more about that trip? Maybe your first impressions or experiences? James Saiki: Yeah well, you know, I think it' ; s from San Francisco, Los Angeles, by error, they assigned me to go to Virginia. So, at that time you know they, they put me on a train, a Pullman, so first class. And traveling and you know seeing the mountains and the scenery. That was, impressed me a lot. And then, we stopped in Chicago, but we didn' ; t get off. So, we continued to Virginia. And when I went to Virginia, they said, " ; Oh, you' ; re going to take medical training. The basic you know to be a first aid man." ; I said, " ; Oh no, I spent six weeks of basic." ; And there was an officer there that was from Hawaii. So, I went to see him and he looked at my record, and said, " ; No, you know, they made a mistake." ; So, in about two or three weeks I got on a train and went to Texas. So, but you know, even in Virginia, we didn' ; t have passes to go out to visit that area. So I, all I saw was the camp and then the sightseeing train to Texas. Anna Takada: What were some of the biggest differences you noticed between stateside and Hawaii? If any? James Saiki: Well, you know... They were all whites and Blacks. Which the only whites we knew in Hawaii to, were prejudiced to us then because they were the so-called " ; elite" ; , the rich people who owned all the companies and all that. And, and now, everywhere you look... Of course, I trained with stateside people, so I wasn' ; t that... I, I was also you know surprised about the discrimination of Blacks and Mexicans in Texas. And one interesting thing is one Black and one Mexican were my close friends. And I invited them to go downtown to see movies or whatever, and they always refused to go with me. And I didn' ; t know why until I found out that you know, they couldn' ; t sit in the theater with me. Anna Takada: Were these friends who are also in the service? James Saiki: Yeah, yeah. So, that' ; s the first time I really realized about the, the discrimination of the minorities here at stateside, yeah. Anna Takada: Did you ever experience any prejudice or discrimination on that trip or-- James Saiki: On me? Anna Takada: Yeah. When you were... James Saiki: I, I don' ; t think so. I think they accepted the Orientals, I think. I guess they considered us white. Anna Takada: And so, you said you visited your family in California when you went from Texas up the West Coast. So, I, I imagine this was family that was in camp? James Saiki: Right. And, they were farmers too. So, they, they went back to the farm. Anna Takada: Did you... And where, where in California were they? James Saiki: Sacramento. Anna Takada: Sacramento. Did you learn anything about their wartime experiences while you were there? James Saiki: You know I, unfortunately... Because I didn' ; t know either, so I couldn' ; t think of asking them, you know? Anna Takada: Sure. Did they seem kind of settled back into the farm? James Saiki: Yeah. By the time I was there they were pretty much settled I think. I don' ; t, I don' ; t recall whether they owned the farm or they... They had a farm before they left, but I think they lost it. And I don' ; t know if they got it back or they' ; re leasing the farm at that time. Yeah. I, I went there mainly just to meet them, and I didn' ; t even visit the farm or anything. Anna Takada: So, I, I want to backtrack a little bit ' ; cause like I mentioned, we are, we' ; re also interested in learning about what Chicago was like and what drew you know some Japanese Americans after the war to come here. James Saiki: Oh, what happened is my brother that was in the 442, when he got discharged, he came to Chicago to go to technical school. And I think he was back in Hawaii while I was still there. He worked for an appliance outfit doing refrigeration repairs and all that thing. And then, with the brother below him, George got out of the army in ' ; 48 or ' ; 49. He decided to go to Chicago to learn welding, electricity and refrigeration with the intention of coming back and working with his brother and opening up a shop or whatever. But at that time, the economy in Hawaii was very poor. So, my brother told his brother, " ; Don' ; t come back, stay in Chicago." ; So, you know he stayed and found a job in Chicago. And so, when I finished school in Philadelphia... No, yeah. I was planning to go back to California to find a job or go back to Hawaii. And my brother being here, I spent Christmas and New Year' ; s with him. And then, I say, " ; Oh." ; I look around, there' ; s a lot of hospitals there. So, I found a job with Northwestern and they offered me fifty per-- 50% tuition rebate. And it was right across the street from where I was working. So, I said, " ; Oh, I' ; ll give it a try." ; And I found it just a little easier than my first year in college, but somehow I managed to finish and got my bachelor' ; s. Anna Takada: So, what year was that that you got your bachelor' ; s from Northwestern? What year was that? James Saiki: That was, oh, I spent six years on that school. So, ' ; 57 to ' ; 63. Yeah. I think 1963 I graduated. Anna Takada: So, it was ' ; 57 that you came to Chicago? James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: Okay. James Saiki: I' ; ve been here 60 years. Anna Takada: Wow. And where, where had your brothers been living in Chicago? James Saiki: Uptown, 4800 North. So, I stayed with them for almost three years until I got married. Then, I moved out from their place. Anna Takada: And what, what was that neighborhood like at that time? James Saiki: At that time? It wasn' ; t too bad. Not, not like today. Yeah. Because most of the, the Japanese, they started, when they came out of camp, they started in the south side, then they moved up near north, and then they moved to Uptown area and then Skokie and the surrounding suburbs. So, most of our children and the young-- the third generation live in Skokie, Mount Prospect, and all in that area. And I' ; m a second generation, Nisei, so there' ; s very few of us in North Chicago now where I live. Very few. Or, or most of them have passed away. But the younger, third generation, I, I know just a handful that live in so-called Chicago, except some that live downtown in the, the more affluent ones. But most of them I know in the suburbs. Anna Takada: Do you know what the reasons were for that shift? James Saiki: Well, I, I, I guess, again, at that time, there was prejudice. I know when I got married in 1960, I lived in Uptown. And then, when we got married, I tried to, went North Chicago, east Chicago area, and we looked for an apartment. And I know some of the apartments were open because they' ; re advertised and they would say, " ; Oh no, it' ; s sold, or rented." ; And then, after having about half a dozen of that, I realized that it' ; s because we were Japanese, they wouldn' ; t. But you know after that, it kind of opened up. Anna Takada: And that, that seems to be a pretty common experience for people who came from camp in, in the 40s. So, even as late as 1960, it was still difficult to find housing? James Saiki: Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, certain areas. Anna Takada: Sure. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: Did, had you had any expectations about what Chicago would be like before you' ; d moved here? James Saiki: I' ; m sorry, what? Anna Takada: Did you have any expectations about what Chicago would be like before coming? James Saiki: No, I, I was just passing through. I wanted to see the big city. Anna Takada: And... James Saiki: And then I had some friends who were living here too. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So, you mentioned that there was a Japanese American community here. James Saiki: Oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Anna Takada: That there' ; s a number of families. James Saiki: Yeah. There were quite a few, even Christian churches. I was Buddhist but I was converted perhaps later. But there was about probably one of each denomination, baptist, congregational... I know there were at least six or seven, which we, we had a lot of gatherings together or functions together. And we had a real... And also, they have a golf organization and there was about 10 different golf clubs. And then, then the sports program for the children. And then, at that time, you have to be oriental or married to a, you know... to qualify. Because at that time, our children were still not as tall to compete with the Americans. So, we had this program so that it would be more competitive for them. And so, we had baseball, basketball, volleyball, swimming, track meets. All these teams from these churches or private groups would meet. And so, that, that was very exciting. Anna Takada: Can you tell me, or can you give me some of the, the names of some of these groups or churches that you were talking about? Like what, what were the, those predominantly Japanese American institutions at that time? James Saiki: Oh they, they were all, you know. Anna Takada: Well, what are some of the, their names? James Saiki: Well, the church I went to, the Church of Christ Presbyterian. And when I first went there in ' ; 57, I think there were only two whites. And then, there were the two non-denominational churches. One congregational church, one Methodist Church. Anna Takada: Do you remember what they were called, these churches? James Saiki: Well, Lakeside, and Devon and Ravenswood. Those, those were the Christian churches. And then there were one, two... Two large Buddhist church. One was called Midwest, and the other one, the Buddhist Temple of Chicago. That was in Uptown. Midwest was on Menomonee, where, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Lincoln Park. James Saiki: You, you knew. Anna Takada: So it sounds like these, well, you said that through church and some of these groups, there was a lot of social activity. James Saiki: Yeah, that, those are all gone now because the kids are in suburbs and being involved in soccer and school activities. I think they have, they still have a basketball training camp or something going on. That, that' ; s the only thing I can recall now. But it was good for me because I was involved in all the activities, coaching or participating, so, that, that was a good outlet. Anna Takada: Where did you meet your wife? James Saiki: At church. Anna Takada: At church. Can you tell me a little bit more about... Well, let' ; s see. You were married in ' ; 60? James Saiki: 1960. Anna Takada: In 1960, so you two had met. Was it at just at a church service, or-- James Saiki: The wedding? Anna Takada: No, I' ; m sorry, where you met. James Saiki: Well, both my brother and his wife, my sister-in-law, they' ; re very devout Christians. My brother sang in the choir and my sister-in-law was the organist. So the first Friday I was there, it was choir practice, so not no choice, but you know, I went to there. And then Sunday they, they were going to church chorus, and I said, " ; I' ; ll go with them." ; And I' ; ve been doing that ever since. And then we had North minister' ; s organization, which was all singles. So we, we got our own picnics and outings, about 15, 20 of us. And so that' ; s how. Anna Takada: After you were married, did you stay in Uptown? James Saiki: Yes, I spent three years on Lawrence and Hermitage. And the reason I got there, because one of our members had a three flat apartment, and so you know, they, they opened it up to me. So I stayed there three years and then a three flat building on Winthrop and Buren was available, and my friend asked me if I was interested to buy it. Financially, I was, I could have bought it, but somehow it was only $1,000 down. And then I took out a second mortgage, and so you know that' ; s the only reason I could afford it. So we were there 10 years and I, I' ; m not cut out to be a land, landlord. And, I' ; m not good at fixing things and all that. After 10 years, I' ; m going to get rid of it. No, yeah, I wanted to get rid of it much earlier, but one of my friends that worked for me in the lab said, " ; Hey, James, you want to buy my house?" ; " ; Buy your house?" ; he said, " ; We' ; re going to sell it." ; So I went over to look at it you and it is in Budlong Woods. And oh, he was kind of attractive and the price wasn' ; t you know that high at that time just before the economy run out. And so I said, " ; Okay." ; So I got rid of the building. So I stayed there from ' ; 75 until three years ago. Anna Takada: Wow. James Saiki: Over 25, 30 years there. And so I' ; m in a senior apartment now. Anna Takada: And when you first came to Chicago, did you notice or were there other like Japanese American businesses or grocery stores? James Saiki: Oh yeah, yeah. Some of them are still around, grocery stores. And there were a few, I guess souvenir shops. I don' ; t know if they still, I don' ; t think they' ; re still around. Anna Takada: What areas would were they in or what were some of-- James Saiki: I think they were mostly on Clark Street, around 300 North, all the way up there. I know they were about three or four in that area, grocery stores and restaurants by like Wrigley Field. I' ; m familiar with that place because our church is half a block south of the ballpark. Anna Takada: And if you were to describe what the Japanese American community was like kind of around your, the earlier days that you were here? James Saiki: As I mentioned, I, the only thing was the sports program that I, I was involved in, in our church. Other than that, I, I wasn' ; t active in the JACL or JASC. So I was, most of my time was devoted to church, church activities. Anna Takada: Did you have any children? James Saiki: Yeah, I have two, two boys. I lost my elder son two years ago. Anna Takada: Oh, I' ; m sorry. James Saiki: He was fifty, 53 years old. And my youngest son is eight years younger and he, they both went to University of Illinois. And my youngest son is a physical therapist and the wife is medical research. And so she was offer-- she was at Abbott, and she offered the job in California, a real good job. So they moved when my younger son-- my younger grandson was nine months old, to California, and they' ; ve been there ever since. Anna Takada: So the, the apartment that you would have-- or, where you would' ; ve been raising them, which home that you mentioned to me did you raise them? James Saiki: My, my children? Anna Takada: Yes. James Saiki: Well, the, the first, my older son was at the Hermitage and then Winthrop, and then the home I bought, or that they both, you know, and then they both left home. Anna Takada: What schools did they go to? James Saiki: Well, both of them went to Goudy, that' ; s on Buren and Winthrop at the grammar school. And my oldest son went to Lane Tech and my youngest son went to Lincoln Park, Lincoln Park yeah. Anna Takada: Did they also go to, to church and maybe, were they involved in the sports programs? James Saiki: Right, they were both, both very involved. Anna Takada: And you mentioned that you, the sports program. It was the athletic association, was it the Chicago Nisei? James Saiki: For the Chicago, yes, we participated in that. And also, I was very involved with the Chicago Golf, Golf Association. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit more about those, maybe what your roles were or what you would-- James Saiki: Well, in the Chicago Golf Association, gee, probably in 1960 I got... When I first went to our church, we had just our church group and we played on Saturday. And then in order to play with the other groups, we joined the so-called Nisei golf and we had 10 of ' ; em. And I got involved right away and I, I did all the lineup and score keeping and the prize distribution for almost 30 years. So I knew almost hundreds of golfer-- Nisei golfers. And then for the sports program for NCAA, I, I played in the men' ; s baseball and volleyball. And I coached my, my two sons when my oldest son was 10, 10 years until he graduated high school. And then my youngest son being eight years younger, he began, so I, I was a coach for the baseball team all those years. Anna Takada: And why was that, I mean given that you were so involved, why is that something that was important to you, or that you were, or that made you interested? James Saiki: Well, the church is because you know, my faith, the baseball, because of my two sons, and for the golf, because I love golf. And I love to play volleyball, so I was involved in events. In fact, our team almost organized because volleyball wasn' ; t that popular at that time. Anna Takada: So we just have a, a few minutes left. I, there were a couple of questions that I did want to come back to, if that' ; s okay with you. I guess one thing I, I would be curious to know about is, as, of course as you know, a lot of, a lot of folks from the Japanese American community came to Chicago during and very closely after the war. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: And many of whom also went through this camp experience, which you hadn' ; t known about or obviously experienced yourself. I' ; d be curious to know how, like what that was like for you to learn about what had happened, because it you know, it affected not only your own family but your wife as well. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what that was like to learn about? James Saiki: It, you know, I don' ; t know what the word to use, but unbelievable, or I just can' ; t imagine something like that happened. Yeah, list-- you know listening to those who are involved in camp, and, and then when they had redress hearing at the-- Anna Takada: Northeastern. James Saiki: Northeastern, I went to see that. And that, I really learned a lot listening to the testimonies and that. Anna Takada: What made you want to go listen to the hearings? Or how did you-- James Saiki: Because I, I wanted to, to learn more because I knew just, just very little of what had happened. Yeah. And so you know, it really opened my eyes, listening to it. And I guess it, it actually again, drew me closer to my mainland peers you know? Anna Takada: Had you learned from, from your wife about her own family experiences, or was that something-- James Saiki: Well yeah, she was so young, so she, she don' ; t remember very little because she' ; s what, eight years old, seven and a half. So she, only thing she learned-- remembered playing, so it was fun time. And then I really didn' ; t get a chance to talk too much to her mom and dad about camp, which I have or, I should' ; ve, but I didn' ; t. Anna Takada: And I' ; m wondering if, if you experienced, because so many people in Chicago had gone, of course not-- You know, it wasn' ; t like everybody came from camp, but a lot of people did. James Saiki: Yeah, mhmm. Anna Takada: Did you ever notice like any, any diff-- like in interacting with people who had been in camp? James Saiki: In camp? You know I, I' ; ve never had you know, talked to even like close friends, very little. The only one person who was one of those No-No Boys, I heard a lot of his experience and why he you know did what he did, which you know I could understand why and all that. And a lot of the camp experience, of course, you know, Jean, she' ; s in our church and I see her two or three times a week. And so she' ; s been telling us all the different programs that she' ; s involved in. And I went to several of those you know, so I learned a lot from that. Yeah. Anna Takada: One thing that I like to ask people toward the end of the conversation is, is about kind of your, your legacy. So like, with your, with your son or, or grandchildren, you know what is, if you could leave something behind, some kind of message or anything with your, with your family or future generations, what' ; s something you would want to, to pass on? James Saiki: Well you know, I grew up in a family that were very close, you know we supported one another. I, I can' ; t recall fighting or saying bad things to my brothers, all, even up to today. And so I hope and I' ; m sure that both my sons I' ; ve taken to our family functions and they realize how our, our family functions. And I think both of them are trying to carry on that tradition about being open, being friendly, being hospitable, being caring. And both of my sons are involved with us in church, so they' ; re very devout Christians and both my grandsons are very devout. So hopefully, they too, from their mom and dad... And we have a so-called Saiki reunion every two to five years. And I just came back from one last week, we had 81 people just from my clan. And I, even that, I can sense that all the cousins, grandsons, grandcousins know each other you know? There' ; s 22 fifth generation, 58 thir-- fourth generation, and about 50 third generation. There' ; s only seven of us second generation left, but you know, they come from Utah, Arizona, Seattle, Oregon and Chicago and Hawaii. And most of them know each other, they you know, they keep corresponding. And through these activities, they get together. And that' ; s something that I' ; m grateful for, my upbringing, because my eldest brother was that type, caring and inviting people. All the functions in Hawaii, most of the time they came to our house, New Years and all the big functions. And our home was always open you know? And mom and dad, although their education was very limited, at least they could read and write and a lot of the others could barely read and write. So they would come to our house to have their letters read or have mom and dad write letters to them, or if they needed any counseling, I know they always came to see mom and dad. So you know, I grew up in that type of atmosphere, so hopefully I can carry on that tradition. I' ; ve tried to, anyway. (laughs) Anna Takada: Well, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to share, or anything I may have missed in this conversation? James Saiki: Not really. I think I said most of what I want, maybe too much. (laughs) Anna Takada: Thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to speak with me. Appreciate it. James Saiki: Yeah, thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaikiJames20180719.xml SaikiJames20180719.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
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Saiki, James (7/19/2018)
Description
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James Saiki, a nisei born and raised in Hawaii, describes his parents' immigration from Yamaguchi prefecture and his experiences growing up as one of nine siblings on a farm in Wailua, Kauai. Eight years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed, he recalls singing patriotic songs at school, the departure of an older brother to serve with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, and his lack of awareness of the incarceration of Japanese Americans on the mainland. Joining the U.S. Army after just one year at the University of Hawaii, he received training as a laboratory technician before serving in the Korean War, followed by two years stationed in Tokyo. After his discharge from the army, he studied in Phildelphia before joining his brothers in Chicago to work and study at Northwestern University. He reflects on his involvement with the Church of Christ Presbyterian and the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association and expresses a hope that his descendants will continue a family tradition of caring and hospitality.
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2018-07-19
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video
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Series: Untold Stories