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Dublin Core
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ideno, Kazuo Gene
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Crystal City
Seabrook
Sumo
Kendo
Aurora
Poston
Hyde Park
Park Ridge
San Francisco
Sports
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/24/2017 Ideno, Kazuo Gene (8/24/2017) 1:09:31 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came For Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery, in conjunction with the exhibit < ; i> ; Then They Came for Me< ; /i> ; . Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949 Nisei Crystal City Seabrook Sumo Kendo Aurora Poston Hyde Park Park Ridge San Francisco Sports Ideno, Kazuo Gene Takada, Anna video 1:|9(6)|19(5)|30(3)|43(7)|54(4)|64(2)|74(13)|87(13)|100(3)|111(13)|120(14)|131(16)|142(16)|151(14)|164(11)|176(5)|192(3)|204(10)|214(9)|228(4)|238(5)|269(16)|286(14)|298(1)|308(7)|323(2)|338(7)|357(2)|366(3)|378(11)|388(7)|398(6)|415(1)|428(15)|443(2)|455(10)|465(8)|476(5)|487(17)|499(12)|515(4)|530(13)|539(5)|553(15)|565(11)|584(3)|599(11)|611(7)|625(4)|639(11)|656(6)|665(16)|674(10)|690(2)|702(8)|715(10)|735(3)|748(1)|757(11)|768(4)|778(4)|786(13)|796(8)|806(1)|816(10)|828(4)|838(2)|850(13)|867(6) 0 https://vimeo.com/302037149/ab1d36e3da Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/302037149" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kazuo Ideno was born in San Francisco, California. His father was born on the island of Shikoku and his mother in California although she was raised and educated in Japan. His family was incarcerated at Crystal City Internment Camp located in Texas. His father was a kendo instructor and leader in the community. After imprisonment, his family moved to Seabrook, New Jersey for an opportunity to work at a cannery. Soon after, the family relocated to Chicago, Illinois where he spent a lot of time participating in sports and extracurricular activities with Japanese peers. It was in Chicago that he met a classmate who hadn’t been imprisoned in a camp which confused him. Ideno discusses his feelings of guilt as a youth and his “gung-ho” attitude to “prove” his loyalty to the U.S, alienating himself from his Japanese culture which he discusses in regret. He concludes with a message to future generations to never forget what happened and to be aware of the historical issue of prejudice in the United States. Kazuo Ideno:Okay. My birth name is Kazuo Ideno. Uh, my adoptive first name Gene. I did that my sophomore year in high school because I felt that we should have an English name rather than just the ethnic name alone. So to the consternation of my parents. I' ; m sure they were, why did I adopt that? But I did, my father was born in uh Mats- Matsuyama, Ehime on the island of Shikoku, uh, in Japan. And he came to the United States, San Francisco in 1919. Yeah, with his father. And he, uh, he was a kendo instructor and he opened up a dojo in San Francisco. He got married to, I can' ; t remember her name. He had two kids, boy and a girl, but his wife died, uh, I think in 1931 ' ; 32. So he sent those two kids, my half brother and sister back to Japan, raised by his mother in Japan. KI:He met my mother in 1938 and they got married in ' ; 38. And I came, I was born August 21st, 1939. So the war happened with two years afterwards and my mother was born in Lodi, California, but she was educated in Japan. She, she was sent to Japan by her parents when she was five years old. So she' ; s like a Kibei and pretty much pretty Japanese. She, her English is not very good or was not very good. So she came back to San Francisco and she met my dad and they had myself and then my brother, younger brother in 1941, uh- the war broke out and the FBI came and grabbed my father and sent him down in San Diego. Uh, subsequently was shipped to Santa Fe and kept there from ' ; 42 to ' ; 43. Since the FBI grabbed my dad, my mother, and I' ; m not sure, I can' ; t remember what she said, how we got back to Lodi with her parents who were farmers and subsequently, um, we were taken to a camp in Rohwer, Arkansas. KI:And we were there. One of my first memories and maybe it was because of the trauma, not seeing my father, that I when, I remember being in a truck or not. Could have been my grandfather' ; s pickup, that took us to Lodi, I' ; m not sure. That was my first memory of anything and the second memory is being on a train at night. And I remember asking, my mother where' ; s Otousan, my father and she kind of gave me a, you know, oh he' ; ll be along shortly type of answer to kind of appease my concern. Um, then we were in Arkansas and I remember bits and pieces of my experience in Arkansas. I remember it was damp and kind of cold. I remember visiting my aunts and uncles in the, what do you call it? AT:Barracks? KI:Huh? Barracks. Yeah. And then I don' ; t remember the experience of going to to Crystal City, Texas from recreation of my mom' ; s saying that she got a letter from my dad saying, I will meet you in Crystal City. KI:So the government allowed my mom and my, my brother and I to take the train down to Crystal City to join him. That was in March. So we were in Rohwer for about almost a year. Uh, my dad in the meantime was in San Francis-, uh, uh, Santa Fe. And they told him because he was in - very much involved in the community and everything else that he can either go back to Japan or stay here and he said, I' ; m going to stay here. So that' ; s why they sent him to Crystal City and then notified that we would join him there in Crystal City. Some of my experiences of my dad was kind of interesting. Oh in the late about 1990 we had a person come in, interview my dad and about his experience in San Die- uh Santa Fe. And he said, she said, do you remember this incident where the three Isseis were shot and killed in Santa Fe? KI:And he says, no. He says, he does remember though, being on a crew of men, they had to dig three trenches and he didn' ; t know what it was for. And obviously he was in the grave detail on digging their graves because as soon as they finished, they were dismissed then. Uh, they didn' ; t see the placement placement of their three bodies in then slowly put the, connected the dots and said, that must' ; ve that, it must have been the purpose. My dad there. They realized that. One of the unfortunate incidents at Santa Fe was that there was a drunken sentry or guard, U.S. soldier for whatever reasons. But as my dad was passing by, he bayoneted my dad in the back now, he didn' ; t penetrate deeply, but he did stab him in the back. The understanding as far as my father was concerned that he was, this guard was reprimanded and sent out of the camp, now that I didn' ; t learn until this interview, I, he never mentioned in his whole life, neither did my mother ' ; til this person interviewed my folks. So that was, I looked in the back and sure enough it was a scar back there over where he was stabbed. So those were the kind of times and experience that he had. KI:We joined him in Crystal City and this place had Italians, a lot of Germans and Japanese from Peru. And I think there were some other, smaller groups there in this camp. There' ; s a book I think I saw in your place called Train to Crystal City. And from there I read that book and I learned a lot that this camp was for trading of the people either back to Germany or to Italy or to Japan. The lady that wrote that book gave a very good account of what had happened there. I was totally unaware of it even till I read that book. I was never aware of all the things that had happened. One of the things that I asked my mother, well oh, how did things go along with the groups is, well the Japanese primarily did not mix or communicate with the Germans too much, but they did communicate a lot with the Italians. KI:There was more social interaction with the Italians than there were with the Germans. One of the interesting things she, she, she met mentioned was that on Saturdays, I don' ; t know if it was every Saturday or once a month or whatever, but on Saturdays the Germans would march-parade around the perimeter of the camp on the fence with a giant swastika flag and they would just march around. That was a memory of my mom' ; s and that' ; s where probably, so they were pretty staunch, uh, Nazi Germans I guess, or whatever. And then she said one day they were gone, the Germans were gone. Now our camp was unique that it had a swimming pool and that was due to the Germans. They, they said we want some recreation and you just ask the government for the supplies and they did the construction. So that was a very nice pool. When I told my wife about, we had a swimming pool, she said: " ; Oh wow." ; I, didn' ; t - we probably were one of the few camps that had a swimming pool, we had like a big swimming pool and when I visited, KI:Crystal City was three, four years ago. You could just see the remnants of the concrete of the swimming pool. They' ; re just still a little bit of traces of it left and there isn' ; t too much other than the orchard grove that was there. That' ; s all I knew where my - my, where we stayed. I knew the location of it because there was a sumo thing. And I know we lived close by, so there' ; s a map that' ; s provided there. And I could see the location of where our particular homes were. Now listen to the description of the kind of places my wife stayed at Amache compared to ours. So we' ; re in a very plush, very nice place. We had a toilet that was shared by the people, it was like a duplex and we shared that toilet. I' ; m not sure about the stove or cooking. I, I don' ; t remember too much about eating. That was not in my memory bank about eating. There was a community shower and bath outside. I remember that. All this was just a toilet in our house and it was like a two bedroom, a two room duplex, I guess you might call it, where we stayed. KI:We had sumo, which I engaged in. My dad was the camp accountant. He kept all the books and all this stuff. That was his job. Uh, I think, I don' ; t know how much you get paid. You get, if you got a job, you get paid for whatever you do. Uh, I remember little things that they made. And the thing that I remember most or the feeling was I think that age where I as a child, say " ; we are in jail, we are in prison and therefore we must have done something wrong" ; . And then the explanation was that you know, we, I' ; m Japanese and therefore I' ; m an enemy of the United States and I' ; m born here so I don' ; t have to prove that I' ; m an American. And I think for quite a while after getting out, I kind of turned my back on my culture and just try to prove that I' ; m, I' ; m not that perceived Japanese that people might have concept of, I' ; m an American. I kind of turned my back on my culture. My mom wanted me to take Japanese afterwards and I kind of fought it tooth and nail. KI:Although my folks only spoke Japanese, my cousins here in Chicago said, we didn' ; t understand you for a year, said all you spoke was Japanese and you know, a little bit of English which was broken, whatever. So I didn' ; t realize that. I thought I spoke perfect English. We were one of the last ones to leave the camp in Crystal City. I remember the family across the street moved out. They had a much bigger apartment, so our place, so we moved there and they had more bedrooms. So we stayed over there and pretty soon I remember friends I knew, that they were all going, we' ; re still in camp. Yeah, I think we left either late ' ; 45 or it early ' ; 46. The Seabrook farms in New Jersey offered jobs, guaranteed a job, in the cannery that they had, you had to sign a one year contract. So my mom and dad signed the contract to go to Seabrook Farms. KI:I' ; d asked my father and mother, " ; why did you go to Seabrook Farms, why didn' ; t we go back to California like everyone, most people did" ; and said, well, there' ; s no guarantee of a job back in California. They felt that maybe the prejudice and hatred was still as bad in California. My Dad wanted to see New York and Washington D.C, so he said this would be a good opportunity to do that. So that was why he opted to go to New Jersey, he worked at the cannery. Years later, like I said, my dad was a, had a dojo in San Francisco in kendo. And he, when he came to Chicago, he opened up the dojo started with, they said he' ; s one of the founding fathers of kendo here in Chicago. And years later I asked my mother, I said, mom, why didn' ; t dad have my brother and me do kendo? And she said to me, " ; he didn' ; t want you to be grabbed by the FBI like he was." ; So if I don' ; t know that, they won' ; t grab us" ; . So it was that, I guess that fear, his experience that made him not, not have us participate in that. So I said, oh my God, I would, ya know, I would have loved to have learned that but he kind of kept us away. So we were in New Jersey for a year and we settled in Chicago and I asked my mother, they notice it. Oh, why did you opt for Chicago? Said, well, they were going to earn all the money they can. They both worked at New Jersey and they were going to earn enough money to go all the way back to California to live there. They' ; ll have some capital and just have to do something when you get to California. But in the meantime, my aunt, my mother' ; s sister, were farmers, which she and her husband were farmers and they raised enough money to get a farm in Monee, Illinois about 50 miles outside of Chicago. KI:And in the meantime they had a boarding house and that' ; s how they earned some additional income when the Japanese, that were coming from the camps and provided a place to stay. And my aunt wrote my mother and said, why don' ; t you take over our boarding house and you get some more money and you go, I said, oh, okay. Well my mother said, all right, so we came to Chicago, at, June of 1947 and my aunt and her family moved out to farms, so I think it was 1954 there. Finally there was re urban renewal and they, my folks made enough money in the boarding house to buy a house. And we moved a block over it from what was, you' ; d stay in the boarding house. Years later, I had asked my mother, I said, " ; Mom, if you were your endeavor raising all this money to go to California, why didn' ; t you, why didn' ; t we go to California?" ; KI:And my mother turned to me and said this is when I was a sophomore, just going to sophomore year, she looked at me and says, " ; because you didn' ; t want to go, you wanted to stay with your friends here in Chicago" ; . So they defer to me. And rather than moving to California because they had enough money to go, they bought the house in Chicago and I felt like this ya-know. But also my dad kinda established roots here in Chicago. He was, how should I say, classically trained? I guess he came from a fairly well to-do family in Japan. So he knew all the artsy, acting? Is it classical acting? KI:Uh, the, KI:well, I think it' ; s called utai. The very classical Japanese chanting or singing. So he was quite a versatile man. He played the, what do you call it? The flute? Japanese. Can' ; t remember the name of that. He played that, he played harmonica. I thought he was a pretty talented man. But very quiet and very mild-mannered father. He kind of kind of left me alone. It was my mother that did all the disciplining and everything else. She was the staunch one. KI:Uh, KI:We moved to the South Side. We lived right next to the Midwest, not Midwest, Chicago Buddhist Church in Hyde Park. And that' ; s where I grew up. I got what I joined the boy scouts or cub scouts, boy scouts, because it was in the church next door, so it was very convenient. Went to grade school and the Hyde Park High school, I had a cluster of friends, very close friends, Japanese friends. So we pretty much stayed together. We didn' ; t, I didn' ; t mix too much with the Caucasians or other friends. So we had these lifelong bonds with these guys and that was our life and we never got into trouble. I don' ; t think we did. Yeah, it was very minor if we did and we did a lot of stuff together. It' ; s a memory I cherish very much that I was very fortunate that I had good friends, Japanese friends and we stayed together. With a couple of them KI:I still communicate today where we have reunions in Vegas and get together and kind of talk over old times and sing old songs or to the dances. And one of my experiences in school was that, like I said earlier that I didn' ; t realize I spoke mostly Japanese when we came here. My own cousins didn' ; t recognize what I was saying. In the third grade, my first grade I was referred to a speech teacher and I could not understand why I was sent to a special assist speech teacher in school with it. Cause within that class as a group, there was people that would stammer and stutter. And I said to myself, I don' ; t stammer, I don' ; t stutter, I spoke perfect English. Part of my mind is concerned, I did. I didn' ; t know I was rolling my r' ; s, you know, and uh, they helped me through. KI:But in my mind I said, I don' ; t know why I' ; m here. They sent me, I guess I should be here. I spoke perfect English as far as my ear was concerned. So, that' ; s a child' ; s mentality, I imagine not realizing one' ; s own shortcomings and faults. Well that that was one of the experiences. And I pretty much stayed with the Japanese community. I remember growing up, my socialization was primarily with Japanese, even through high school. I think it was only through college, senior year in college that I started mixing with Caucasians and others, expanding my social world, but primarily it was almost all focused on Japanese friends and family. That was pretty much it. Anna Takada:Where did you go to college? KI:University of Illinois. Two years at Navy Pier. KI:I finished two years of my bachelor' ; s at Champaign, stayed another year for my masters and I happened to meet my wife down there and got acquainted and she-- lucky enough to marry me. And we got up here, and I started teaching at the grammar school for a year, four years at Marshall High School, and the rest of my career at Prosser High School. I was a physical education teacher, coach, primarily basketball for 21, 22 years. And then the school asked me to be a counselor. So let' ; s go back to school and get, coun, counselor. Yeah. For eight years until retirement. I just consider myself a very lucky man. All the things that in my life. AT:Thank you for, for sharing all of that. That was, I didn' ; t even need to prompt you at all that was great. If it' ; s all right, I would like to go back a little bit- KI:Oh, sure. AT:Just to, you know, some clarifying questions. and all of that. AT:So, let' ; s start with- AT:So do I have that right? You were born in ' ; 39? KI:Yes. AT:Okay. KI:San Francisco AT:In San Francisco. KI:Saint Francis hospital AT:[laughs] And you have two younger brothers. KI:One, I have one natural brother and then I have a half brother who' ; s, Jerry' ; s gotta be about 90 something. AT:And, um, AT:And so what year was your younger brother born? KI:He was born in 1941 but he passed away 12 years ago. Well he was born December 16th, died in September. AT:And so, so you were, you were very young at the, the breakout- KI:Outbreak, yes. AT:Do you remember or do you have any memories of, of your father leaving? KI:No, like I said, you know, I, all I remember is asking my mother where' ; s otousan, you know, where' ; s, where' ; s father? And she kind of just said, " ; oh, he' ; ll join us shortly." ; That was her answer to me. I remember that trying to alleviate my concern and that was on a train. I just, you know, there are certain memories that get embedded. I remember it was nighttime. We were on a train and I was, I remember asking my mom that question so I don' ; t know but that, maybe it' ; s because of the trauma that it' ; s embedded in my head. AT:And now how much does, how much did you, did you learn anything later? More about why he was, selected and detained? KI:You know, my folks did not speak very much about their experience. Only if I asked them a little bit, some questions. Certainly I learned a heck of a lot when this moment, I can' ; t remember her name now. She interviewed my mom and dad about their experience because I guess this relates to my dad one of the few that got grabbed by the FBI and sent to Santa Fe and she was kind of investigating the death of those three men that were shot by the guards, sentries, I guess they said. They were walking out the gates and the guard said, halt. And these are three Isseis, Japanese don' ; t understand English. They don' ; t know what " ; halt" ; means. So they continue walking. So they were shot. Killed. That' ; s about pretty much, my memory of it. Of that. Until my mom says we' ; re going to join dad. KI:I know my dad was a very proud man. But I think it kind of broke him a little bit. I always felt, I remember I said, you know, my dad' ; s got a kinda menial job here in Chicago and thing and it wasn' ; t, I think folks, he never said anything, but it was, people were telling me rather about accomplishments about my dad and stuff. And how much respect that the community had toward him for his stuff and I guess as a kid you don' ; t realize all that, the value of your father in terms of how ya know the esteem that others have for him. All I know him is as my father, so I, I kind of feel bad about myself, thinking about my dad that way. AT:Was it just the dojo that he ran? Did he have it, did he, um, have other work or was- KI:Yeah, uh, he, he taught classes and singing the classical Japanese singing- AT:In San Francisco? KI:I don' ; t know if in San Francisco that part I don' ; t know I know he did it here in Chicago. And, I think he did a little bit in camp too. And also the acting, he did a lot of acting, he did a lot of, female parts. And I remember as a kid I would kind of cower over this, you know, I, I liked the male guy with the, samurai, the hero so to speak, my dad' ; s playing a female. I remember other older Japanese saying " ; Hey your dad' ; s good" ; . No no, that' ; s, that' ; s not easy to do. That' ; s considered a very classic, I guess the, what is it? Noh, what is it Helen? HI:Kabuki. KI:Kabuki, where played female roles. So I thought, oh, okay. I wasn' ; t sure. Well, but I mean obviously you know the people had a lot more respect for what my dad did than his own kids. AT:I also wanted to ask you more about Crystal City. So you said that people didn' ; t really mix that much across- KI:I' ; m going by what my mother said because obviously I just hung around kids, you know. The Japanese kids that were there. My mother' ; s account was that, there were some social interaction with the Italians but not with the Germans. Now, I read her the book saying that there were some, but it was not on a wide scale. We did things together as a group. Pardon me? Helen Ideno:Swimming was segregated. KI:Swimming was what? HI:Segregated. KI:Oh, is that what she said? I don' ; t remember that. I just remember going to the swimming pool. HI:The Germans would not swim with others. KI:Well, also that speaking about swimming, we were in a pool, that pool. And my dad, would ride my younger brother on his back going into the deep end and I would have a tantrum, saying, why doesn' ; t dad take me? He gets, my brother gets to ride on my dad' ; s back float in the deep end and I don' ; t, and this older man there, saw me, he felt sorry for me. So he said, get on his back, little realizing how much bigger. And so he started to, start out into the deep end and we started sinking. I was too big for him. And we started to go down and I remember, uh, we started to go under and lifeguards jumped in the pool and pulled us out. The feedback of that was I always had a fear of water, since that time. Only through probably in high school, my, my friends, my good friends got me to overcome my fear of water. Assuming I would never go on the deep end and never go down any water deeper than my head. I had just a terrible phobia and I still have apprehension today, but I' ; ve overcome it. I would say one of the benefits of that, if there could be considered a benefit is that I know that fear, that sense of the water. And since I was a physical ed teacher teaching kids that when I ever encountered someone with that similar fear of deep water, it taught me all the different tools for how to teach them to overcome it. And I think I used a lot of techniques that I' ; ve never seen anybody else do. It' ; s a very slow process. But I think I taught a lot of kids how to overcome that fear. I remember one kid coming in years later thanking me for, so that' ; s one of the benefits. I never realized it, but I just- AT:So you remember the swimming pool well. Do you remember anything else about the, in terms of the physical layout? KI:Yeah, I remember, well my mother relayed an incident where my brother was climbing the barbed wire fence because he always liked to climb and the guard in the tower. Here' ; s a two, three year old climbing a fence and the guard turned his machine gun on my my-brother climbing this fence. My mother panicked because she doesn' ; t know. All she knows is the guard is turning, aiming at my younger brother, she, I think she screamed at him to get down. Eventually he got down, he climbed up. My brother had a famous reputation in the camp, always getting in trouble. He would climb up on the roof of the house. Barely, couldn' ; t get down. And he' ; d have to get people to come and grab him, pull him off. Not only, he put his foot in a pipe that was in the ground, couldn' ; t get it out. They had to come and break up and. So he had a reputation in the camp. I was more the do-gooder. He was the one that was a mischievous one always getting into trouble. I remember going to shows, I remember parades or festivals. I remember going to a Japanese school. I' ; m left-handed, was born left-handed and you had to write with the, I guess the Japanese print from top to bottom. And I would go like this and the teacher would whack my hand, go on when she wasn' ; t looking, I' ; d put it back and then she' ; d come along and whack my hand again. So that happened often enough that I' ; m a righty in terms of right-handed, writing. Terrible scrawl. But it' ; s one of the few things I do right-handed. I remember that and then going to an English school, American school afterwards, I think we had Japanese school in the morning, American school in the afternoon. That was first grade? Kindergarten, first grade. I think that' ; s what we did there. I remember then doing kendo. I didn' ; t do that. We did sumo. They had a sumo place and I remember competing. (Speaking to someone in the room) Helen, you have the pictures or do I? AT:You said you' ; d go to shows. What kind of shows? KI:Movies! I remember seeing Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet. I think it was, movies. Here' ; s a picture of myself. AT:So, what is that? KI:There' ; s a, here' ; s a picture of my brother and I, do you read Japanese. You don' ; t read Japanese, do you? AT:Hiragana is the best I can do- KI:I can' ; t read it. It' ; s in the back, my mom wrote, my dad wrote stuff on the back. AT:You want to hold this up? This is a photograph of- just high. KI:Oh, I don' ; t know if you can see that. It' ; s kinda small. AT:We can take it. Yeah. We' ; ll, we can take a photograph. KI:This is a picture of my family. This is in Crystal City. August, 1943. AT:So, did- so someone, do you know who was taking these photos? KI:No, no. There' ; s some writing. See, I' ; m four years old. My brother' ; s one, one year eight months, all my dad wrote everything on the back here. Here are, this is a photo that my dad had of Crystal City. This is a woman, looks like a tennis, which I had, there' ; s an explanation here on the back saying what it is. This is a map of the layout of the camp. Crystal City here, I got this. AT:Did you get that when you went back? KI:I think, yeah, I think when we visited there. They gave us this, it was in their library, they gave us this issue. My experiences in Chicago. Oh, here' ; s a picture of Santa Fe. This is my father here and this, these are all the people that were in the Santa Fe grabbed by the FBI. So imagine this picture is, 1942. AT:And you said that your family didn' ; t really talk about anything unless you prompted your parents with questions. Do you, was that kind of like, would you say that was characteristic of them or- KI:I think of most people that I know. I know my aunt, we already talked about it. You know, she was in my aunt, my mother' ; s sister was in Jerome, which was further down from Rohwer, Arkansas. She hardly talked about it. If she was asked, she would talk, but I think almost characteristically, almost everyone I know of that age did not talk about, they never maybe among themselves, they might have initiated instead of their relationship, but never, I don' ; t remember my mom or dad ever saying anything. Only when I brought it up, they would discuss exactly what I asked them. No more. So there, I guess maybe it' ; s an experience, they just don' ; t want to recall. AT:Did you ever- how did that make you feel as you were growing up and asking them questions and did you notice or you just kind of moved on? KI:I think it' ; s, what' ; s the Japanese word as I understand, gaman? I think it' ; s that. They honor that, that particular thing and they just say that' ; s a sad experience in their life. Now let' ; s go on in life from, you know, go on from there. Not re rehash it. I' ; m guessing. I' ; m not sure, but that' ; s a part of history that they don' ; t particularly care initially recall or cite on their behalf. But if asked, they would mention it, their experience. AT:And, so you had mentioned how you even at a very young age, kind of had this this understanding or concept that you' ; re imprisoned, therefore you must have done something wrong. And to you, the only thing was being Japanese, so you wanted to prove that you were American. And you described that whole experience. Was that ever something that you, that came up with your parents or maybe your mother? KI:No, it' ; s just a feeling within myself and I remember a good example of this. There would be kids would always love action movies. You know, I go to the shows and I see the World War II movies with Germans and Americans and okay. But when I saw the movies with American and Japanese, you know, I kind of cower out of the theater, try to keep a low profile when I left cause that was kind of, I don' ; t know what guilt or whatever is guilt by association and bad, bad feelings. And so I didn' ; t like those movies too much cause it was saying reinforcing that we' ; re responsible for any of the deaths that occurred in the American soldiers getting shot in the movie. We' ; re responsible. It wasn' ; t, until years later, I kind of overcame that feeling- of embracing my culture. Unfortunately that' ; s the part I feel really remiss about is turning my back on my culture there for awhile. AT:When do you think that change happened? KI:Probably understanding more about the, how the war took place, then maybe maturing a little bit, understanding and feeling maybe better about myself. And that personally I did not experience too much prejudice against myself throughout my whole career. I don' ; t remember being taunted or said things openly to me. So maybe that had a little bit to do with saying, okay, people accept me, you know, they don' ; t resent that I was once a member of a race that they hated or, you know, fought against United States. So that kind of disappeared from my thinking and feeling. And, I started embracing my culture more back. I regret that because my parents wanted me to go Japanese school and I fought that tooth and nail. I didn' ; t want to embrace that. Now I' ; m really sorry I did. It' ; s one of my biggest regrets. Once I moved out and got married, my brother was staying with my parents awhile, so I kind of forgot my Japanese language. I can understand it, but I can' ; t speak it. You know, it' ; s hard for me to form the words to articulate myself, but when somebody addresses me, I' ; m a fundamental Japanese, I can understand simple, I can' ; t understand complicated words, simple ones, I can understand AT:And, do you think that was like high school or college age that you started having those or or even later? That you were embracing your, your Japanese heritage more? KI:Probably later in high school. I think I was just about maturing a little bit more in my thinking. I mean, I think in high school overcoming the anxieties of any teenager in high school, you know, with- I think in my senior year I think I started to get a little more confidence in myself and maturity - I hopefully maturity. And, I think I started embracing that my culture a little bit more at that point. AT:Again, to kind of take it back - KI:Anytime. Sure, no problem. AT:So from Crystal City, your family went to Seabrook, or they, they worked for Seabrook in New Jersey. KI:Yes. AT:And you said you were there for a year? KI:For a year. There were like huts there, two of the same thing. They had huts similar to like what we had at camp. It was like a compound and I guess they hired. I don' ; t know, her uncle, my wife' ; s uncle was even there doing the same thing. AT:And so that, I mean, do you remember your, your first impressions of you know, New Jersey, someone like across the country? Very different. KI:Since my memory was of camp in terms of, you know, basic memory, anything where there were no fences was nice, a sense of freedom, of being able to move, being in a car and dad and my dad always took us almost every Saturday to a town not too far to go see shows, movies. They had a recreational center thing in Seabrook and their Japanese organization there that had shows and ran things. So I remember we had productions there and my mom took photos and stuff that we were engaged in there. And one of my experiences, I remember in school, second grade where the teacher was calling my name, you know how teachers call - take attendance first day. And she was mispronouncing my name and I had no idea what she was saying because I know the way my name should be pronounced from my parents and fellow Japanese people. And here is a Caucasian saying my name in an entirely different form so I' ; m not responding and she probably looked around and said there' ; s an Asian kid there. Everyone else in the class hadn' ; t responded. KI:She said, are you " ; Kazuo Ideno" ; (mispronouncing his name)? And then she didn' ; t say " ; Kazuo Ideno" ; (pronouncing name correctly) or something, that variation. I see. Yes. So that' ; s when I first realized that maybe one of my first thoughts of somebody not pronouncing my name correctly and saying is this going to be a problem in the future? So that was one of the seeds of my adopting Gene as a first name rather than given, you know, and all my friends in Chicago, my Japanese friends all had English names. I was the only one with the ethnic name. So- AT:And what drew you to Gene? KI:Well, I had asked my friends, my buddies. I said, hey guys, how about helping me with my name? This is my sophomore year in high school. I had to have a name that there was no one else in the group had. You know I was in the boy scouts. So all the name, my mother, I asked my mother, said what English name, if you had a chance, would you give me? She said, I would' ; ve named you Henry. I said Henry. Okay, well there were a couple of Henry' ; s in the-our group. I don' ; t want to be another new Henry. And I think there were two stars Gene Autry and Gene Kelly. And I said, you know, Gene, there' ; s no, no one named Gene in this group. That' ; d be a good one. And I don' ; t want Eugene, I wanted just Gene. KI:So I said, guys what do you think about, Gene, hey, that' ; s different. Oh, okay. I mean, I used to use we always call you Ka. And they still to this day. They still call me Kaz. All my friends, they don' ; t call me Gene. They called me Kaz. So, that was adopted. The problem was every time I, to this day, when I say, what is your name? Gene, they spell it J-E-A-N- I don' ; t know why they J- E-N-E they don' ; t, they don' ; t put the " ; G" ; they have that French. AT:And so you adopted that when you were in Chicago? KI:Yes. AT:Was- when you moved from New Jersey to Chicago, was that the first time you had ever been to Chicago? KI:Yes. AT:Do you remember your first impressions there? KI:Let' ; s see how' ; d it go. My mother came ahead of, from New Jersey. She went ahead or I think a week ahead and my brother, my dad took, my brother and I and we rode the train from, I think was it from, Philadelphia, I think, I think it was Philadelphia. Somehow we took a bus to Philadelphia and then took the train to Chicago and I remember getting off and I said, wow, what a big city. And just kind of in awe and meeting my cousins for the first time, my aunt and uncle and cousins and all, they, they probably thought I was kind of strange. It was -- it was a language problem that was, cause they pretty much spoke English. They didn' ; t speak too much Japanese. AT:Were they in camp somewhere? KI:They were in Jerome, Jerome. They were farmers. So they were, they were released I think in 1944. They worked in Wisconsin or somewhere farming was in northern Illinois. KI:And they did that for awhile. So they were releasing, I think like a lot of people that you had a job or you can do something, you got released. One of my experiences speaking about that is when I went to grade school on the South Side, third grade, there was another Japanese student in my class and he was Richard Sano and like all of us, we were all the friends I had. I said, what camp were you in? Oh, we were Poston [internment camp] what camp were you in? Oh, it was here. So I went to this person in my classroom. I said, Rich, what camp were you in? Camp. What camp? You know, I was in Crystal City. So and so was in Poston- KI:I wasn' ; t in any camp. Well where were you then during the war? Right here in Chicago. So, he was totally unaware of it. I don' ; t think he knew what I was talking about and I was very surprised and shocked that he was a Japanese guy. But because he lived in Chicago, he was not in camp and I think, like Helen, my wife' ; s father' ; s cousin, they lived in Colorado and they, they weren' ; t in camp either. So that was kind of a revelation for me, we figured all the Japanese in the United States, were placed in camp. No, we didn' ; t realize that they were all the border states, you know, never civic or, western Illinois - western United States a part of Arizona. AT:So that was something that even the kids would do is say, which camp were you in? KI:Oh yeah, that was a natural. We all asked each other and I just remember all the guys said- you were where? Crystal City? I felt kind of like of an oddball because everyone was in Poston. Everybody was in, you know, who ever heard of Crystal City? And most of my friends were from L.A. and I was from San Francisco, so I was definitely the oddball. AT:How did you explain Crystal City? or you know- KI:I couldn' ; t, at that time I had no knowledge, in regard to my friends-- explain how I ended up there. I didn' ; t understand the history of what, what, what the places through where people, the Japanese were in different camps because of where they originally were. And I really had no idea. I just knew we were in a different camp. So that was kind of a revelation to me. That' ; s the benefit of I guess, history and knowledge of learning things like this. AT:So actually, Karen had mentioned that she thought your father was kind of a big part of Issei entertainment in Chicago. KI:Yes. AT:You know, I' ; m assuming his involvement in the arts and all of that. KI:She knew that? AT:She did. KI:Wow. AT:So how, how would you describe your, your families' ; or your parents' ; involvement in the, or role maybe in the resettlement community of Chicago? Was that something that you were aware of in high school or- KI:Not really too much? I got, I gotta say like I said like I kind of turned my back and that, you know, other than my friends that I associated with I--we didn' ; t get too, too involved in all that. Maybe I went to the, what they call a resettler' ; s, picnic. They used to have, in during the summertime or things like that. But that' ; s pretty much it. No. And then church, the Chicago Buddhist Church in the South Side. The Obon, the different hanamatsuri and Boy Scout, Cub Scout, boy scouts, explorer scouts, scouting program. They had that was pretty much it, but as far as the community stuff. I know my dad was probably involved in a lot more stuff like that. My mother too and they probably spoke mostly Japanese. It was like boring stuff to a teenager. AT:And, so as far as high school and your, your extra curricul-, extracurriculars, um you were mostly with other Japanese Americans? KI:Yeah. Here, let me just show you this photo here. This is 1954, start at ' ; 54 and I think would last til three years, ' ; 54 ' ; 55 ' ; 56. I am pretty sure this is the only, mostly Japanese baseball team, a lot of people used to play softball, but not baseball, we were really one of the few and we were very fortunate to have this gentleman right here Yukio. He just graduated from University of Illinois and he was our coach and he' ; s pretty much my, I wouldn' ; t say mentor or role model or a guy that set me on becoming a coach myself that he taught me so much about the sport and I just, whatever he said it was gospel, and I, you know I followed it to the T, whatever he said, was a strong advocate because he was very knowledgeable and taught us a lot, the basics. So I thought that most of my friends are in here. Members of this team here. AT:And you said you also went to dances and socials, is that right? KI:Yes, we started when we were in Explorer Scouts, we had a Scoutmaster said yeah you guys could have a dance. We had a dance at the church. AT:So you would host it yourselves. KI:Our, our boy scout, our explorer scouts did, yes. And then later on we' ; d get different teenage groups. And that was on the South Side. Then we went to mostly I think I went to most of the dances on the North Side, where more Japanese were. KI:At Midwest Church, they had some there and they had some at Tri-C. I' ; m trying to remember the other church. Yeah, I remember going. We had a lot of dances, in those times. I' ; m really sorry for kids today, they don' ; t have that many dances like we had, no socializing. AT:What were, what were those like? KI:They were great. Yeah. Record hops. It was typical, girls on one side, guys on the other, the boldest guy might go and ask a girl, then the others would follow, you know, but that was it. That was how you met. Ask for a date or going there with somebody, it was a great time. I really enjoyed it. AT:And one of the things that I grew up learning about or understanding about the resettlement community was the, you know folks were kind of discouraged from congregating or - or walking in big groups for example. KI:You know in uh in regard to that, I remember there was an article in the JACL, saying that when Japanese were released. That was never consciously said to us. Now that might' ; ve been true. Maybe it' ; s by example, but I don' ; t recall from my memory of it actually verbally said, that you know, hey don' ; t congregate there probably because I know I was with my friends and they were all Japanese so. There' ; s nothing about, hey, gather. Whether it was boy scouts or church group or something. Teams. We were never conscious, hey, you guys shouldn' ; t do that. That kind of thing. Or at a church function or dance, you guys shouldn' ; t do this. That was never, I don' ; t think that was ever expressed or felt. At least, I was not aware of that if it did indeed exist. AT:One thing I wanted to be sure to ask about was the boarding house that belonged to your aunt and uncle. Where was that located? KI:Right next to the church, 5470 South Dorchester. AT:And, were the- KI:or 79 excuse me. AT:The tenants- KI:All Japanese. AT:All Japanese? KI:They were, they were from the camps coming here. I guess getting employment, you know, from the various camps they came these are all single men primarily. And they would-- my mom would serve Japanese food for dinner. I' ; m not sure if they had breakfast or not, there might have been. And my job as the oldest son was to set the table, help my mother clean the rooms, and then help her with the wash, the laundry. That was my job. My brother was free. I said my mother, how come he doesn' ; t have to do it? Well, my mom' ; s explanation was, well, you' ; re older, you' ; re more responsible. So what can I say? AT:And so- -How long, where did you go from Hyde Park? And then I' ; m sorry, you said now you' ; re in Park-- KI:Park Ridge. AT:Okay. So can you explain where- -where you and your family-- KI:So I lived in Hyde Park until I think it was about what ' ; 62. Graduated ' ; 62. My wife and I got married in December of ' ; 62. We moved to the West Side of Chicago. She was teaching over there. I was teaching on the South Side for --until ' ; 63. I got a job at Marshall High school ' ; cause I wanted to be a high school and I wanted to coach and I was at a grammar school the first year. We started trying to save money, we started to have children and her father worked at Frito Lay in Franklin Park and they had a kind of like a house there on the property and the manager, made a proposal and my father-in-law came and said we can live in that house for free and the utilities and everything would be paid for ; all we have to do is clean, clean the office and mow the lawn of the property, shovel snow in the wintertime. That was the trade off for living, rent free. So that-- said, okay, so we moved in there for, we lived there for four years and that helped us save money to eventually buy a house. And I think we moved there in ' ; 6-, ' ; 64, oh no, ' ; 63, ' ; 63 in Franklin Park and worked there, stayed there for four years. And then we moved to Park Ridge in ' ; 67, wanted to get a good school system. We didn' ; t think Franklin Park had a very good school system as we started looking for homes in Park Ridge, Morton Grove, Niles, and then, we just, we didn' ; t have a lot of money, so we found a home that fit in our budget, somewhat started there. We knew that Park Ridge had an excellent school system. So that' ; s why we settled there, we haven' ; t moved since [chuckles]. Well moved a house, but it' ; s still in Park Ridge. AT:So the, the drive was the education? KI:Yes. Yes. We especially stressed that then, my wife, pretty much we, we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t spend too much on things that during the formative years of our three daughters, she made sure that all that money we saved for their education. So when it came time and there was money set aside for their schooling our eldest went to Purdue and then, Texas A and M for a master' ; s in Nutritional Science. Our middle one, Karen went to U--University of Illinois. She became an electrical engineer and then our youngest because she wanted to leave us pretty bad. She went to California. At Claremont Mckenna College. She was political science and economics, you know, my middle one, the one the electrical engineer, she went to Kellogg in Northwestern, so yeah ; my two daughters with master' ; s, my youngest without a masters, without a master' ; s. Just a bachelor' ; s. She probably earned the most ' ; cause she was in the right field, not necessarily because of the degree. AT:When you, when you look back on some of the things that we' ; ve talked about here, from your experiences as a very young child to making these big moves, what do you, how do you see those war time experiences as impacting your life? KI:Oh, I think kind of mixed. There was--there was like, I think I feel more for my parents than for myself because as a kid there wasn' ; t a trauma that I' ; m sure my folks and every other older people, you know, I was just a kid. I just felt the effects of the-- I' ; m in jail or I' ; m in prison or something, you know, restricted and-- I just knew that it had more of impact on them than it did on me. Just the, the only impact they had from me was just to prove that, they were wrong imprisoning me. I wanted to prove that they were wrong that I' ; m a loyal American, probably gung-ho in that just to prove that any chance I could. For them, I would say that was the only thing I think I had, cause it was kinda like fun and games to us probably, you know, I was in prison. All I did was go swimming, go playing with my friends that were at camp. Not the trauma of adults saying my livelihood was taken away. And here I am kind of restricted in some movement. AT:And if you could leave your, your children and grandchildren or coming generations if you you could leave them with any kind of message or legacy. What would you want that to be? KI:Never forget what happened, to us. This is what happened to your, for them, great-grandparents, the Japanese on the West Coast in general. And how prejudice can do things you expect from a government, these things can happen. And I guess in a certain extent, you know, I think we' ; re probably more aware of what can happen to Muslims. They might be undergoing the same thing. I think this is the kind of precautionary thing that governments tend to do. Like the Germans did with the Jews, United States did with the Japanese. The government sometimes would--politically, a lot of fear or whatever reason, tend to gather up groups and you know, this is wrong, if that, unless you' ; re proven, especially in United States with our constitution when you have the rights taken away, that' ; s wrong. So, I think I' ; ve become very aware of that. I think this is something we have to be on guard with for a sad experience about that. AT:Well, thank you so much for, for speaking with me. As we wrap up here, is there anything that you' ; d want to add or, or that I may have missed in this conversation? KI:No, I think there' ; s probably some things, but I just don' ; t recall it right now. Oh, I will say that I talked to my aunt who was in the camp in Rohwer, and I said, you know I--I visited the camp too, they have a nice display in Arkansas with-- George Takei was there. So I asked my aunt and my, ' ; cause she was in that camp. That' ; s my mother' ; s sister, younger sister and I said you know we were there, she says, naw, it' ; s a bad memory for her so she didn' ; t want to really talk about it, kind of get more information from me about what it' ; s like or share events that happened. I think one of the things that I remember I said to my wife' ; s uncle was in that camp Rohwer and he, I remember him at one of the parties saying his experience as a teenager that they somehow either legally or illegally they wandered out of camp and they were walking in the swamps and with his friends, and they, just as a young teenager to venture, you know, walking in the swamps, and then they came up on a body. A Black person hung up in the tree somewhere. I guess the rednecks must' ; ve hung this Black guy and they said, they ran home back to the camp as fast as they could thinking this could be me, they could hang me as a escaped Japanese pris, you know, from the camp so, I said really that happened, George? Yeah, that' ; s their experience, his experience right there. KI:He went onto serve and then Europe, her uncle. AT:So is this, is this something that I know that different people and certainly different generations, approach the experience differently in terms of whether or not they will share about it and all of that. But it sounds like you, you have spoken to some family members about-- KI:Yeah. In fact, one of my closest friends, he was in Poston and I think he visited Poston several years ago. We were in Vegas, took time, just drive down there. He wanted to see where his camp was and his memory of it. He' ; s a year younger than me, but I mean he, he had some memories of being in Poston, so like I did, visited Rohwer and Crystal City, it kind of revived some of the temporary memories, kind of see what it was like, well what were the for my parents, you know, just kind of visualize it, how it looked, what it would be like-- AT:From an adult' ; s perspective? KI:Yes. AT:And what, what inspired that, that trip back because it sounds like it was fairly recently? KI:Three, four years ago? Three, four years ago. I' ; ve just, I always wanted to make that odyssey, just see what it was like, try to keep it in grasp with my memory of the place. And, I remember the or-- the orange grove, so I think I told her, I said, you know, where' ; s this at? Well where we stayed now is a school. You have the school there. So I couldn' ; t exactly see where the exact property but looking at that map, I said, I remember the perspective of where the sumo thing was, where this building was, and I said that was the house that we were in. I could remember that. I could recreate it in my mind, so I have that memory of where we were staying from that point. AT:Well, thank you so much again for taking the time. KI:Well, thank you for listening [both chuckle]. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://www.saitolincoln.com/ohms-viewer-3.8.6/render.php?cachefile=IdenoKazuo20170824.xml IdenoKazuo20170824.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/36" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ideno, Helen (8/24/2017)</a>
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Ideno, Kazuo Gene (8/24/2017)
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Kazuo Ideno was born in San Francisco, California. His father was born on the island of Shikoku and his mother in California although she was raised and educated in Japan. His family was incarcerated at Crystal City Internment Camp located in Texas. His father was a kendo instructor and leader in the community. After imprisonment, his family moved to Seabrook, New Jersey for an opportunity to work at a cannery. Soon after, the family relocated to Chicago, Illinois where he spent a lot of time participating in sports and extracurricular activities with Japanese peers. It was in Chicago that he met a classmate who hadn’t been imprisoned in a camp which confused him. Ideno discusses his feelings of guilt as a youth and his “gung-ho” attitude to “prove” his loyalty to the U.S, alienating himself from his Japanese culture which he discusses in regret. He concludes with a message to future generations to never forget what happened and to be aware of the historical issue of prejudice in the United States.
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949
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2017-08-24
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kawamoto, Amy
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Sansei
Minidoka
Resettlement
Hyde Park High School
Buddhist Temple of Chicago
Teacher
Resettlers' Picnic
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/2/2018 Kawamoto, Amy (3/2/2018) 1:34:57 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery and/or the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1946 Nisei Sansei Minidoka Resettlement Hyde Park High School Buddhist Temple of Chicago Teacher Resettlers' Picnic Kawamoto, Amy Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/273994715/5212d0efef Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/273994715" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Amy Kawamoto discusses her experiences as a young child in Minidoka concentration camp, and her family’s experience after resettling in Chicago. Mrs. Kawamoto went to participated in a girls club, attended to the Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and later taught at the school where she was once a student. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Amy Kawamoto as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on March 2, 2018 at 1:30 PM at the Japanese American Service Committee 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago. Amy Kawamoto is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. AT: To start, can you just state your full name? Amy Kawamoto: My name is Amy Emiko Kawamoto. AT: And can you tell me about where and when you were born? AK: I was born August 26, 1938 in Seattle, Washington. AT: And can you tell me about any memories you might have of Seattle? AK: Seattle -- I don' ; t have memories of. But I have one sister and one brother - older sister and older brother. My parents - my father was born in Kagoshima, Japan, and my mother was born in Hiroshima, Japan. AT: And do you know when they came to the US? AK: My father came on a ship. He was... I don' ; t know exactly what he was doing on the ship, but he was working, and he jumped ship in Seattle at the age of, I think, 18, he said. Knew no one... He had no relatives or anybody there, so he says he swam to shore, and he only had dried fish, and he had no money. Oh, he might have had a few from his work on the ship, but other than that, he was all alone and somehow survived. And this was in 1918, I think. ' ; Cause I have a manifest of that ship with his name on it. And on the side of the sheet that his name was on, it said... Well, it didn' ; t say " ; jump ship," ; but he was no longer on the ship. AT: And how about your mother? AK: My mother was a citizen - she was born in Seattle. But she lost her citizenship when she married my father. AT: Do you know what year they married? AK: They were married - Great Depression, 1929. Right in the heart of the Depression. They were in Seattle until the relocation. AT: And do you know anything about how they met or how they got together? AT: Actually, they were what they call baishakunin, which means an intermediary -- I think my grandmother or somebody introduced them with the intention of having them get married eventually, but -- AT: And how did they make a living in Seattle? AK: My father was a manager of a hotel - they leased the hotel. And my mother did all the changing of beds -- it was like a rooming house. Hundred beds. AT: Do you happen to know what it was called? AK: One of the hotels - the one I was born in - was called Fairview Hotel. And then there' ; s one that I think my sister was born - I' ; ve forgotten the name - it is still standing. The building itself is still standing. But that' ; s what they did. For a living. They always either leased the hotel or eventually, they owned a hotel here -- not a hotel, apartment building, here in Chicago. But they -- the time before, it was all leased. You couldn' ; t own you know - ' ; cause he was not a citizen at that time. AT: Do you know or have any more details about your - either your parents or your family' ; s life before the war? AK: Well, before the war, I could only guess from photos I' ; ve seen. But my mother said that when they first got married, and before the Depression actually hit, she says it was the best time because they had money, and they had a new car, but that all went downhill during the Depression. They lost everything, and I think they went to live with my grandmother in Vashon Island, which is off of Seattle. And it was a hard time. They lost their - my oldest brother who was four years old at the time, died from blood poisoning. He -- I guess he had chicken pox, and scratched it and became infected and - so that was their oldest, first-born, so it was very devastating for them. And my sister was born and my brother and then I was the last one. Although my mother told me, and this was right before she died, that there was a child after me, but because they were entering camp, that the doctor said that probably it' ; s better you aborted it so... And I think she was hemorrhaging or she was bleeding, so... So, I was very upset about that because I always wanted a younger brother or younger sister, you know. AT: And when did you find that out, when did she pass? AK: She passed away in 2003. Yeah... I think for most of them - my parents' ; age - they were very ashamed of being in camp. To them, it was like being in jail. And I know my uncle, he refuses to even talk about it. When he was interviewed, he didn' ; t say a word. Still upset and ashamed. AT: And - your parents, do you know what years they were born? So how old they would have been? AK: My father was born in 1899. He died at age of 95. And my mother was born in 1909, and she lived to be 94. From the photos that I have... I have a photo of when my oldest brother was one years old, and they had a big party at a Chinese restaurant, and they' ; re all dressed up. So I think that was in 19- let' ; s see... he was born in 30 - it was probably 1931. One year old. AT: So you mentioned that your first memories are of the evacuation process? AK: Right, Puyallup Assembly Center. AT: Before talking about your actual memories, can you just tell me a little bit about what happened to your family at the onset of the war? AK: You know, my parents never really talked about it, so, you know, I wish I had asked them, but we never discussed that part of -- ' ; cause I don' ; t really remember how we got to Puyallup. And even when we went to Minidoka, everybody says, " ; Yeah, we were on a train." ; But I don' ; t remember that. So I regret not asking them questions, but I don' ; t think they even wanted to talk about it anyway. For them, it' ; s... an embarrassment, you know. ' ; Cause they felt they were in a jail, you know. But that was sad because they were just - went through a Depression and recovered, and then camp came, and lost everything again, so it was quite devastating. And when I think about my mother, she was only in her 30s with three small children. And I think the hard thing was that they didn' ; t know when they were gonna be out -- at that time. When we look back it wasn' ; t that long of a time, maybe two and a half years, three years. But at that time, they didn' ; t know when. AT: So your family was first sent to [says at the same time] Puyallup Assembly Center -- AK: [says at the same time] Puyallup Assembly Center, uh huh. Camp Harmony, I think they called it. And then we went by train to Minidoka, Idaho, just outside of Boise, Idaho. And... I don' ; t remember the dust storms that people say we had and the cold and - I guess when you' ; re young you just don' ; t feel those things. AT: Can you tell me about the memories that you did have? AK: In camp? Well, when looking back, you know, they were very organized. I' ; m just amazed at the people who were the leaders in each block, how they organized everything. They had a vegetable garden, we had church services, there were also activities of baseball. I remember my father playing baseball. And then I was in a dance group, Japanese dance group. And also, we had like a amateur hour, or people would perform. And I would sing Japanese songs. AT: How old do you think you were at that time that you were participating in those activities? AK: Well, it had to be between three and six. Probably about five or six years old. But like I said, it was a good time for me and all of our friends of that age. But I know it wasn' ; t pleasant for my parents. AT: Before we started recording, you mentioned memories of even the evacuation process when you were probably very young, I think three years old? AK: Three. AT: Can you tell me about those memories? AK: I just remember getting shots. And I don' ; t remember the accommodations in Puyallup. I know it was a fairgrounds, and I think it still is. But... like some people talk about being in horse stables and things like that, and I don' ; t recall that at all. I don' ; t know what we did in Camp Harmony. The only thing I do remember is getting the shots the first time. But other than that, I really don' ; t remember. AT: And what about in Minidoka? Did your parents take up work? What were your siblings up to, if you recall? AK: My sister, I remember, listened to radio, all these... like I remember Helen Trent. And then my brother and I also, we listened to all the Hopalong Cassidy, and -- it was all radio. There was no television. Yeah, and we were outdoors most of the time. Played all kinds of games. But... Even coming to Chicago, growing up, we were very independent, we went wherever, you know, without my parents knowing where we are at, at that time, we were free to go and take the streetcar, and... And coming to Chicago, I think was a good thing because -- I think there was still a lot of prejudice on the West Coast, but Chicago was - my girlfriend and I talk about this all the time that it was a good place to come to - there was very little, very little prejudice. AT: Before we get into your life in Chicago, did your parents, did they work in camp at all? AK: Yes, my father was a timekeeper, and I remember being interviewed for this book, and she says, " ; What is a timekeeper?" ; And I said, " ; Well, I think he kept tabs on all the other workers -- put the time down." ; That' ; s the only thing I could think of. AT: And your mother, did she work at all? AK: No. I don' ; t remember her... ' ; Cause I think there were only a limited amount of jobs, you know. My grandmother also was in camp, also, but she wasn' ; t with us in the same block. She was a nurse, the hospital. AT: Would you happen to remember your block number? AK: 36. I' ; ll remember that for the rest of my life, yeah. 36-7C. 36 is the block, 7 is the barrack, and C is the number on the barrack. A, B, C, D, I think. AT: Another thing that we had talked about before recording was these photographs that you had found of your families barrack. Can you tell me just a little bit more about those photographs and what your father did? AK: I guess, some of the other people who were in our block decided that they would copy my father by ordering wallpaper, so they started decorating their - I never know what to call it [chuckles], it' ; s not exactly an apartment, but it was a room, and my father and mother had wallpapered the whole thing. I guess he got scraps from... from all the working areas and put up plywood [gestures], he did that first, and then they wallpapered it. The floor didn' ; t change, it was still rough and wooden... dusty, and he made a closet, so he could store the wood for the potbelly stove. And he... he made the bed frame, so we didn' ; t have a cot, we had an actual bed, and I don' ; t know what the mattress was made of, but -- and he made a desk, a commode, and a sink. So we had that in our room, so we didn' ; t have to go out. ' ; Course there was no shower, so we had to go to the community bathroom, but I noted that to myself, I said, " ; My God, that' ; s probably why we didn' ; t have to go to the community bathroom that often because we have that commode in our room." ; My mother made the curtains, the bedspread. They decorated it to make it look like a normal house or apartment. See I never appreciated that, but after I went to the pilgrimage -- gosh, that' ; s very nice that my parents did that, you know. AT: So as a child, did you ever -- did you not really notice that your situation was --? AK: [makes noise affirming no] Better than the next door' ; s? No, I never-never thought about it, uh huh. But... trying to think. I still remember the coyotes yowling - at night, howling. And one of my friends who was in Minidoka, she recalled that, too, and I just... That' ; s one of my memories. I know there was a canal where people used to go swimming, but it was very murky and muddy. And when I went back at the pilgrimage, it was just blue, it was just - it was just beautiful. And there was a lot of vegetation around, and I don' ; t recall that ever, yeah, when we were living there. It was very desolate. AT: Were you in school when you were in camp? AK: I went to kindergarten and [it] was very brief because I was six when I left, so... When I came to Chicago, I remember kindergarten, they put me in kindergarten, and then I guess they said maybe I' ; m a little too old, so I went to first grade. Which would' ; ve been six. AT: And what about your siblings? What exactly is the age difference? AK: My sister was five years older than me and my brother was three years older. My brother, like I told you, my brother doesn' ; t recall too much about camp. And my sister passed away in 2000, so, she would have remembered more. AT: And, just briefly going back to your family' ; s barrack, can you describe the photographs that were taken? And just tell me a little more about... AT: All the photographs that were taken by the government was inside. Nothing was taken outside, so... But, there were, I think there was like, two, I don' ; t know if there was two, four... I think... Can' ; t recall how many rooms now, in a barrack. I think one, two, three four, five, at least six. I don' ; t know if there was eight. But I remember the next door family at the end. They were all adults, there were no kids. And then we knew them from Seattle, my parents knew them from Seattle. In fact, there were quite a few families that we knew from Seattle that went to the same block as we were. So, in fact, a couple of them, I still keep in contact with. Children, ' ; cause we' ; re the same age. AT: And just to have on the record, what were the photographs, these government photographs that you found? AK: Actually, they were ordered. I - They gave my mother one photograph that they took, and we had that ever since we left camp, and I... The reason how I found out that there were other photographs was my niece went to the Smithsonian, and she looked at the picture, and she recalled a picture similar to that and said, she called me and says, " ; Auntie, your picture is in the Smithsonian." ; And so then I discovered that there were other photos, it' ; s when she described it to me it was not the one that I had. So I wrote to the National Archives, and I was able to get a number from the back of the picture I did have and give them a description and the - I guess some kind of coding number. So they sent me the negatives of about seven of them, and they asked if I wanted to order them. I could order [gestures] regular 8x10, and so they sent me seven of them, very good quality, black and white pictures. And from then, I' ; ve shown ' ; em to people, and they said, no, that' ; s not their camp. So, I guess I was lucky that we, you know, we did live in a camp that wasn' ; t - in a barrack that was fixed up. And I asked my mother, " ; Where did you get the wallpaper?" ; And she says she ordered it from Sears catalogue. I says, " ; Well, God, here you are in camp, and you were able to do all this?" ; ' ; Cause, you know, there was no credit cards or anything like that. So I don' ; t know how she did it, but we got the wallpaper. So all the others started to do that, too. I don' ; t know how many completed it, but... And I-I' ; m sure that the pictures were used for propaganda because... I think a lot of people said, " ; Well, if they live like that, you know, they' ; re living better than people who are on the outside." ; So [laughs]. AT: Do you recall what year that was, that you found those photos? AK: No, I ordered them. That was - oh, I ordered them... I' ; m trying to think, ' ; cause I went to Washington D.C. that year, and then I did see the photo at the Smithsonian because it was in conjunction with the camp. They had an exhibit about camp. I' ; m... I' ; m trying to think, it had to be 19- hm... 95? Around there? ' ; Cause they had an exhibit at the Smithsonian on camp. AT: Would that have been " ; A More Perfect Union" ; ? Does that sound familiar? The exhibition? AK: No. AT: Different one? AK: Yeah... I' ; m not sure. I have to look it up. I' ; m sorry I didn' ; t take photos, you know, of all that. AT: That' ; s fine, we can -- AK: But the -- when we went on the pilgrimage, we were able to see a authentic barrack. Somebody had preserved a barrack at a farm exhibit. And so there is a-a genuine, authentic barrack in that Minidoka area. AT: When you got that -- when you spoke to your niece who saw the photograph, what was your reaction? Or how did that feel learning about -- AK: Oh, that, yes, I says, " ; Well, there must be other photographs." ; So I asked my mother, and she says, " ; Yes, there were others that were taken." ; And I says, " ; Why isn' ; t my brother and sister in the pictures?" ; And she says, " ; Oh, they were in school." ; I was the only one at home, so. AT: So you were in the photographs? AK: Oh yes, yes. AT: With your parents? AK: Uh huh. And, in fact... this girl called me, after I was at the pilgrimage, and she says she wanted to interview me because I was the girl in that photograph. She says she wanted to interview me because of that photo that was in the Smithsonian. And she' ; s written a book about Minidoka, I thought it might be here [points to book cases], but... I' ; m trying to think... But I will bring those photos down to show you. AK: That would be great, I' ; d love to see them. So you mentioned that your family was probably in camp for about two and a half or three years? AK: Mhm. Two and a half, probably, from April ' ; 42, April ' ; 42, and then, we were one of the early ones to get out, which was in December of 1944. Although my father came out here first to Chicago, ' ; cause he... I don' ; t know, there was a relative who was here already, and so they said to come out, and so he looked around to see if there was a building that he could purchase or lease before we were called out. So he came out in August of ' ; 44, and then we came out in December of ' ; 44 by Pullman train. I remember that train ride [laughs]. It was fun -- we were able to sleep on the car, in a bed. AT: That must have been a -- quite a long -- that must have been a long journey. AK: Long journey. AT: And so your father had come in ' ; 44 in August to -- AK: And then he did find a place. It was on 33rd and Cottage Grove. And he leased -- it was a big hotel. In fact, somebody said, or -- somebody said that the White Sox used to stay there or something. This is way back. But... that was a nice hotel because, you know, you had all your friends right in the same building. So, it was, I think, three stories. Of course, everything was big because, you know, you' ; re so little, but it was... Yeah, I still have friends who-who stayed at our hotel. And... AT: And so you were living in that building as well when you came to Chicago? AK: Yes, we were living there, and let' ; s see -- we moved from there, I think my father lost his lease, and they were going to demolish the building, so we moved from there to 46th and Lake Park on the South Side. And I was there until I got married in 1965, so. AT: And at that location, that' ; s where you were living? AK: Yes, I was living there until I got married. AT: What do you remember of first arriving to Chicago? Do you remember? AK: Oh, I remember, oh yes. ' ; Cause my father was supposed to meet us, and he didn' ; t -- he was nowhere to be found, and we' ; re waiting and waiting and it was snowing, and we were all bundled up because we never felt such cold. Now, it' ; s funny because in Idaho it was probably colder, but I didn' ; t feel that. My aunt and uncle' ; s first apartment -- they already had a building and so my first taste of ice cream 7-Up. That was a real treat. AT: You said that was near your aunt and uncle' ; s place? AK: Aunt and uncle, they lived on - right near the Aragon Ballroom on Lawrence. That was their first apartment. But we' ; re on the South Side. So I know in the Japanese communities you' ; re either a North sider or a South sider. Which was nice -- what was nice is we were all congregated in a certain area on the South side, 43rd and-43rd St and Lake Park, Greenwood, Ellis. All of those blocks were all Japanese. There was Japanese grocery store on 43rd street. AT: Do you happen to remember what that was called, the grocery store? AK: Uh huh, OK Grocery. The Okamotos ran that store. AT: And -- AK: And we all went to either Oakenwald Grammar School or Shakespeare. Those were the two schools. And most of us went to Hyde Park High School. AT: And is that where you and your siblings went? AK: Mhm, yes. AT: So which was the first school -- were you at Shakespeare or Oaken-- AK: Oakenwald, Oakenwald, which was a wonderful experience, yeah. All the Oakenwald people, we all talk about it and how great it was. AT: And so what grade was that that you would have been entering? AK: Well, like I said, I was in kindergarten for a short while, and then they put me in first grade. And the funny thing is, my brother told me that we all spoke Japanese. And so when we first went to school, you' ; re learning the pledge of allegiance and all of that -- that was all new, you know. And I don' ; t know, we somehow quickly learned English. We were all able to adapt without having any kind of lessons. AT: So when you were in camp, that means that you were speaking Japanese only? AK: Mhm. I don' ; t remember speaking Japanese, but that' ; s what my brother said. Because even when we came to Chicago, she spoke to us in Japanese, and of course, I would answer in English. My father always had a dictionary. He always wanted to learn words, so he was able to speak English. I think my mother because she was more with her own Japanese friends that she -- although she spoke and understood, you know, English. She-she never took any English lessons or anything. AT: And how would you describe your experience at Oakenwald? AK: Wonderful, just -- teachers were just great. They were all -- most of them were Irish Catholic. They were not married, and we remember -- in fact, when I went to this not the Alphawood, but the more recent event at the Historic-History Museum, met a friend there who went to Oakenwald, and he just raved about the teachers, and I says, " ; Yeah, we all know that." ; But he says he called them up and took them out to dinner when he got older, and I says, " ; Wow, you must have had a good experience." ; He says, " ; Wonderful." ; And everybody who did go to Oakenwald really appreciated the teachers and the school was just wonderful. AT: And that-that neighborhood at the time, you mentioned there were a number of Japanese-American families that had resettled there -- AK: It was changing then, it was -- ' ; cause our school, you can see, like when my sister went to Hyde Park, it was all white in her class. In my brother' ; s class, there was a sprinkling of blacks. In my class, it was like, quite a few blacks. So the neighborhood was changing at that time. But we had no problems, we all seemed to get along in Hyde Park. AT: Do you remember, as a child, ever thinking about your identity or...? AK: No, we weren' ; t deep thinkers, [laughs] no. The fact that we didn' ; t come across any real prejudice, I look back, I says, this is amazing. Because this is right after the war, and you know, even the teachers were apprehensive about, you know, teaching these Japanese from, you know -- they' ; ve never met us. But I remember talking to my eighth grade teacher, and she says, " ; That was the best time," ; she says, " ; When the Japanese kids came to our district," ; she says. " ; Because they were so well-behaved and..." ; So it was a good time. I don' ; t know about the ones who went back to California. I don' ; t know their experience, just was curious about that. My father came from a very warm climate-environment in Japan, so I was amazed at why he would pick someplace like Chicago. To settle. AT: Did you ever have a chance to ask him about it or have a conversation? AK: Well, when -- because I went back to Kagoshima, and I just loved it. And I' ; m - says, " ; Why did you leave?" ; Of course, he was very independent at 18, and I asked him why he wanted to come to America, and he said to learn English. And I thought, " ; That was a curious answer." ; And it wasn' ; t until I went to Kagoshima, how progressive they were during that era, which was the end of the Meiji Era where they were very progressive in their thinking. They wanted to -- in fact, they sent a few children to study in England! And he says, yeah, he wanted to learn English. So, I says, " ; Well, were you gonna go back?" ; You know, and he says, well, it wouldn' ; t have been good for him ' ; cause there really isn' ; t anything that he could' ; ve - except for farming, during that era, during that time. So... let' ; s see. You wanted to know...? AT: So, in Chicago, was your family religious at all or did they take part in -- AK: Well, my father and mother, they belonged to the Buddhist Church, and I went to Sunday school at the now Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and I still attend that church - or that temple. But it wasn' ; t until I got older that I realized that that' ; s actually what I believe. Before it was just a lot of fun, like everything else, it was time to meet your friends and socialize. But you didn' ; t think too much about the religion. AT: And can you tell me about -- so at that time, it must have been when the temple was still on the South Side. AK: Mhm. AT: Can you tell me about -- maybe describe where that was in your memories of it? AK: That was on -- I think it was on 57th and Dorchester. Kind of -- I can' ; t say for sure that' ; s the address, but Reverend Kubose who founded the church, he was a wonderful man. And I learned so much from him, just from example. AT: Did you participate in Japanese School? AK: Mhm, mhm, for a short while. I' ; m trying to think -- most of the activities my parents were involved in was because of the church. That was their social life, the Issei' ; s. That' ; s why there was a huge membership because that was their meeting place, you know. Now, it' ; s not as much, and all the old-timers have passed on. AK: And besides services, do you remember what any of those activities were? AK: Activities at church? AT: That your parents might have participated in? AK: Oh well, every year we had a picnic, of course, just like the Resettlers' ; picnic. Well, actually, I think Resettlers was the prelude to JASC, I think Resettlers became JASC. AT: Did you have a favorite activity or event either through BTC or maybe other groups that you enjoyed going to? AK: Actually, I went to BTC through -- up until the time I went to high school. And then I stopped going. Just like Japanese school, I stopped going to Japanese school when I entered high school. To my regret today, I wish I had continued. AT: Was that a personal decision that you had made? To stop going? AK: Right, because we had other activities, dancing and things, had dances and -- but things that you, you know, you think about when you' ; re young as to opposed when you get older, just like, you know, you wish you had taken piano lessons [laughs]. But Japanese -- we were just getting into kanji. I knew katakana, hiragana, and we were getting into kanji, and I stopped. I wish I had continued, yeah. AT: What other activities were you involved with while you were on the South Side? So whether grade school or -- AK: Well, we had basketball, we had, you know, basketball, there was a girls league as well as a boys league, and so we played basketball, and- half court, I think. And played baseball, although there was no league for us. But being on the South Side, the lake was a great place to be at because it was a big park and, you know, we went swimming in the lake, although there were no life guards, but we still went. I used to go fishing with my brother. AT: On the lake? AK: On the lake, you know. We used to get up like, 4 o' ; clock in the morning, and we were young kids, there was about six of us and we would walk over to Lake Michigan. It was dark, but... it was fun, we didn' ; t worry about... being accosted or anything, it was just... It was a good time for us, we had a lot of freedom, yeah, we would be out after school, running around somewhere, and I don' ; t think our parents ever knew where we were, but [chuckles] I would go to my girlfriend' ; s house, and my brother would pick me up on his bike because 33rd and 43rd -- we' ; d have to- well, we could walk it, we walked it all the time, but... Yeah, we had a lot of freedom. I wish the kids nowadays had the freedom, but not anymore. AT: And at that time, just being out either past dark or whatever, did you -- you always felt safe? AK: [shakes head] Never afraid. Like I tell my friends, I says, " ; Yeah, I' ; m from the South Side, I' ; m not afraid of anything." ; [laughs] AT: How about the girls' ; clubs? AK: Mhm, there were lotta girls clubs, yeah. I was at the tail end of that era. There were quite a few girls clubs, and they all had dances. AT: Can you describe to me what those clubs were? AK: Well, they were mostly social, but some - from what I understand - there were some groups that would raise money for charity or something, but I don' ; t think that was basic. Most of it was just social, and they would hold dances every once in a while. And charge whatever dollar or whatever. Those were a lotta fun. AT: Those dances? AK: I don' ; t know if you know Herbie Hancock? Well, he played at -- ' ; cause I graduated with him from Hyde Park, and he played for our dances. He was in a combo at that time. But -- AT: And what class was that? What year did you graduate from Hyde Park? AK: What class? 19-um, see, we graduated 1956. Yeah. We still get together with Herbie when he comes into town. In fact, he was at the Symphony Center last November. And I didn' ; t see him, but my girlfriend went. And one of her -- he comes into town and try to get together. The nicest person you' ; ll ever meet, you know. In fact, he was at Ravinia one time, and he had everybody sing the Hyde Park fight song. AT: Just to go back and clarify, were you involved in any girls clubs in high school? AK: No, not in- with the school, but outside of school we had a club. AT: What was your -- what club were you in? AK: We were called the Coolettes. [laughs] And I still keep in contact with those girls, after how many years. AT: Can you tell me what you all would do? In that club? AK: Well, we played basketball, and we would hold dances. AT: Where would you hold those dances? And who was coming? AK: Oh, all the... all the Japanese community. We held it at the Y. There was a Y on- near north. I' ; d have to look at my scrapbook. But... And the Olivet Institute -- I don' ; t know if Olivet is still around. It' ; s on Cleveland. We used to hold dances there and play basketball there. Olivet Institute. And let' ; s see, where -- oh, and once in a while we would hold it on the South Side, Piccadillly. AT: Was that a community center or? AK: Piccadilly was like a- Aragon. It was like a open -- AT: A concert hall. AK: Right. I don' ; t really remember what it was, actually. We used to go to a lot of movies, every week, we would end up at the theater. With all the musicals and everything. AT: Do you know which theater that was? AK: Yes, it was Kenwood, on the South Side on 47th street. And then there was Shakespeare on 43rd street. That' ; s when they had 25 cartoons. I don' ; t know if you remember, probably not. AT: So you mentioned you were married in 1965? AK: Mhm. AT: And that was when you moved out of the South Side for the first time. AK: Right, right, mhm. It was -- so I moved to Belmont and near Belmont and Broadway- or Clark. I lived on Orchard street, mhm. AT: How did you meet your husband? AK: Oh, I met him at Navy Pier when it was U of I. AT: And is that -- so is that where you went to school? AK: Mhm. U of I. AT: And what did you study there? AK: Well, I was -- it was just general at Navy Pier, I didn' ; t know what I wanted to do. And then after two years, I went downstate, and I ended up going to Roosevelt University and graduated in Education. AT: And after college, what kind of work did you get [inaudible]? AK: I was a teacher in Chicago. Same grammar school that I graduated from, Oakenwald. AT: So continuing the legacy. AK: So, my eighth grade teacher was the assistant principal at that time. So she told me a lot of things during the time we were children there, so. Yeah, she was one of the favorite teachers. AT: What did you teach? AK: Third, mostly third and fourth grade. AT: And when you came back to Chicago after some of your schooling, where were you living? AK: When I was married? When I got married, I was on Orchard street. AT: And then, well, and you mentioned that you went downstate for a time. When you came back, did you just go back to Orchard street? Or did you -? AK: No, I wasn' ; t living -- no, I wasn' ; t married then. I was dating him, at that time. AT: And is that where you were living when you were teaching at Oakenwald? AK: Mhm, mhm. And then actually, we moved further north from there. We were on Peterson and Kedzie, I think, which is even further north. And then eventually we moved to Lincolnwood. AT: Do you remember what year it was that you moved up north to Peterson? AK: Let' ; s see, on Orchard, we were- was ' ; 65 when I got married, and we were there three years. And then we were on Kedzie for two years. And then after that we were living in Lincolnwood for -- oh, now it would be like 40 years now. But my husband passed away last April. We were married over 51 years. Yeah, I was hoping we would grow old together, but... AT: What did you husband do? AK: He owned a drapery and blind shop. Actually, we never had a shop, but he did mostly commercial work. And now my son has taken over the business. AT: What was that business called when he was -- AK: It' ; s a -- we do draperies, blinds, shades, mostly for the commercial. AT: Did they have a business name? AK: Kawamoto, Inc. It was so funny because we thought, well, it' ; s very unique, Kawamoto, Inc. Well, discovered that there was an interior decorator whose name was Martha Kawamoto. So, M. Kawamoto, was not as unique as we thought, so. AT: And what was the reason for moving farther north, especially since you were teaching on the South Side? AK: Well, we thought we would have children, and we wanted -- we were thinking Lincolnwood was a good place. But of course we didn' ; t have children, or we didn' ; t have our son til much later. We were married fourteen years before he -- so I' ; m a late mother as well as a late grandmother. But we' ; re lucky to have him. Was as much trouble as he' ; s given me. AT: And so the thinking was it would just be better raising a family in Lincolnwood? AK: Mhm, mhm [nodding]. But I wish it was better for my parents. I think we had one vacation together as a family when my son was about a year and a half, and... yes, ' ; cause I don' ; t think my mother ever had a vacation. AT: Were your parents still on the South Side? Or did they stay on the South Side? AK: They were still on the South Side, mhm. Then my mother had a heart attack when she was about 79, and she came to live with us and never left. So she was with us for most of our married life. My father was still on the South Side, and I finally told him, you know, " ; You have to leave." ; So I got him into Heiwa Terrace. Yeah, it was not a good, it was not an easy life for them. They lost the buildings to urban renewal, you know. AT: The buildings on the South Side? AK: Yeah. And he was broken into a couple of times and, you know, because of the change in the neighborhood, there was very few grocery stores, you know... In fact, there were not many children because the schools, you know, even Oakenwald closed, and they eventually tore it down. It' ; s a beautiful area, if you look at the view, you can see downtown and just, very close to the lake, beautiful area. It' ; s just too bad that it was run down afterwards, after a while. AT: And you had- you mentioned that you didn' ; t really experience any kind of discrimination in your upbringing on the South Side. Do you know if your parents did run into any...? AK: I don' ; t recall, they might have, but I, you know, I don' ; t recall. AT: Did they ever talk about camp or the war? AK: Never. It never came up in conversation. And at that time, being a teenager, you' ; re not interested either, but I wish I had asked them. I' ; m writing my father' ; s story because I want the grandkids to know, you know, because he was the first to come to the United States in our family, and I thought it would be a good thing for them to know about that. I' ; ve been writing this thing for about ten years, so it' ; s -- when I' ; ll get it finished, so, that' ; s one of the reasons why I was able to get the manifest from that ship that he came on, ' ; cause he told me the name of the ship. I wish- I' ; m glad I- because there' ; s very little to go on because he -- when he was in Kagoshima, his father died, and his mother remarried, and so he has half-brothers and sisters, but no... But I remember him when we were at the Memorial Hotel on Cottage Grove, big building, and he used to- he used to be coal-burning stove, so he' ; d have to get all that coal coming into the basement, and he' ; d have to shovel all that coal into the furnace to get the heat going. That' ; s probably why he lived so long, because he was so physically able. He was always playing Go, the Japanese game. That' ; s all he did. I remember with his friends, and then he used to have Go tournaments in our basement. I remember all that smoke because it was a low ceiling, and they all were smokers. But like I said, I think the only, probably, fun they had was probably going to the picnics or... AT: Do you remember -- did you attend the picnics? AK: Yes, every one. [chuckles] Because of the races that we would have and the -- AT: Yeah, can you describe to me what the picnics were like and where they were? Who was going? AK: Mhm, the picnics were held not too far away, it was probably on the lakefront, 40- or 50-something. I don' ; t know if you' ; ve been to the picnics that they have now, OK, I think they wanna reproduce some of the things that they did by having games and prizes and yeah, it' ; s one of my fondest memories. [laughs] Those picnics. Not only because of the games and things, but the bento, you know, the ones that your mothers made, my god, was a feast! AT: What were some of the things that were in the bento? AK: Those rolled eggs. Just like the kind of food you would have for New Year' ; s, you know. Yeah. AT: Besides what' ; s now BTC and the Resettlers' ; picnic, were there other picnics that- or was it mostly -- ?AK: Yeah, no, there was a Kagoshima picnic, which is, you know, the ken, and I think there must have been Hiroshima, but my father, because being Kagoshima, he went to all the Kagoshima... AT: And if you had to describe the Japanese American community of Chicago in those early post-war years, how would you describe it? AK: Like I said, most of the activities were -- I don' ; t real- my father did not participate as much as my mother because they also had the Boy Scout troop at BTC, which my brother was involved in. And... they also had, I' ; m pretty sure, what-like they do now, they have the kendo and things like that. But I remember my brother participating in the scouting, which was a very good program for them. It was huge, quite a few scouts. I don' ; t know, the Japanese are very- so organized, you know, they can organize things very quickly. AK: If you were to, I guess my next question would be how would you describe the Japanese American community of Chicago today? And maybe what' ; s different or what has changed, if anything. AK: Well, I can tell you from the church more than I could, like the JASC I' ; m not involved as much, but... it' ; s turning to a more Caucasian -- if you go to church now to BTC there are more Caucasians than there are Japanese. And I think because the younger group- because it' ; s now spread out so much, a lotta people living in the suburbs, they don' ; t come into town. But I think there is more traditional things going on way back when my parents were going to- as far as like, classical dancing and- ' ; cause I don' ; t think there' ; s anybody who can teach that now. There was at one time, and my mother played the koto. I understand that' ; s still- there' ; s a group that plays that instrument. But how it differs from today and yesteryear... I think now, people are so spread out, and they have their own activities and because of the car, they can drive anywhere. They' ; re not as religious, maybe. Though I think during my mother' ; s time, although they probably weren' ; t that religious, not as much as some of the Caucasians now there. They study Buddhism, and they know more than I would. I would know... but... Yeah, I think the Japanese are actually more prejudiced, I think, than the Caucasian, in the sense that they like to be in their own community and run their own... ' ; Cause I remember my father, when my brother was dating a, I think she was Chinese, oh he was very upset. As much as you know, maybe other people are prejudiced against him, he is more prejudiced than anybody I know. That' ; s why we probably all marry Japanese. It was ingrained in us. So you don' ; t have somebody like that, it' ; s more open. AT: And before we wrap up, I wanted to be sure to ask you about the pilgrimage that you took to Minidoka. Can you just describe when you went and what that was like for you? AK: My husband and I, I think we drove, ' ; cause we were going to go to Yellowstone, so I think on the way we went to Minidoka. And they had an open- was it- anyway, there was a family in there who was, I guess, their parents were in this farming community and every year for the pilgrimage, this family opens their farm to the pilgrimage people, and invite them for a get-together, which is very nice, they do it every year. And, let' ; s see, one of the activities was we got together in a group and like this, they interviewed people. AT: I' ; m sorry, what year was that? AK: 2006. AT: And how had you -- how did that get on your radar, that such a thing? AK: Well, I was interested in Minidoka, and I became a member of the Minidoka, I don' ; t know if you would call it a club, but they started to have these pilgrimages, so I told my husband, I says I' ; d like to go sometime, so we happened to go in 2006. And... but anyway, I learned a lot. Because I always thought from my point of view it was fun. But then I began to realize that there were so many hardships that a lot of people went through. Especially a couple with just a infant, and how they had to stay up all night to keep the baby quiet because, you know, it was just, you could hear next door. But things like that. And those who lost... lost their sons during the war. Understand, I think, Minidoka was one of the top, as far as losing, sons in the war. AT: And that was the first time that you had gone back since [inaudible] AK: Mhm, mhm, and it was such an eye-opener, my goodness, it was not desolate or dark or grey, it was green all around, it was- I don' ; t remember sagebrush. The water was clear and blue. The canal, I remember, was very, you know, we used to go swimming in it [makes a disgusted facial expression]. But I encourage everybody to do it if they can, go on the pilgrimage. ' ; Cause it will be lost. AT: What will be lost? AK: That-that idea that we were incarcerated. And, of course, it should never happen again, but... one never knows. AT: When you were raising your son, did you share with him about your experiences and your family' ; s experiences? AK: Not really, although in school, I think it was seventh grade, there was a unit on the camps, and there was a debate on whether or not it was fair or if it was legal, and they had a debate about it, and my son was very adamant. He says that it was not fair and this and that. Well, they lost the case, it was -- they said that to protect their lives and that it was- it was not exactly right, but that it had to be done. AT: That was the position that won? AK: That' ; s the side that won, but upset my son [chuckles]. ' ; Cause he' ; s one of these very outspoken, you know, he' ; s not like Japanese who are- held a lot of their feelings and... He' ; ll speak up, so he was very upset when he learned about it, and I didn' ; t tell him. AT: You didn' ; t tell him what? AK: About the camps. That we were in it [chuckles]. And he was very upset when he found out his grandma and grandpa were forced into camp. AT: So when did you share that with him, that information? AK: When he was, like, in seventh grade, I think, that' ; s when they taught it in school. I wish he would go to one of the pilgrimages, I says, you know, this way you can learn what happened to grandma and grandpa, how they' ; re feeling. ' ; Cause my point of view is completely different. AT: Can you explain that a little more? AK: Oh, because of my age, you know, because I was still young, I really didn' ; t know what was going on. I thought the whole world was just Japanese at that time, and I didn' ; t even distinguish that there were Caucasian teachers. I guess when you' ; re that age, you know, you really don' ; t discriminate. At least I didn' ; t. AT: Do you remember if there was ever a time or moment that where you did start to understand? AK: Not when I was young. It was when I got older, and as far as the hardships and everything, no, I didn' ; t. [long pause] I don' ; t know, I don' ; t have any resentment because I really didn' ; t suffer, you know. [long pause] I could understand the people who were- their education was interrupted or... but I think like you said, that there were a lot of people who appreciated the direction, they took a different direction, they went on to school, became engineers, and... My brother married a girl who was born in camp, and I remember her when she was one years old, walking around. He went back to Seattle. He now lives in Seattle. AT: When did he make that move? AK: Let' ; s see, I got married in ' ; 65, he got married in ' ; 64, so he went back to Seattle, he drove back, I think in ' ; 63. AT: Do you know why he chose to go back? AK: Well, he married, he married the girl, she was living there. And the odd thing about it, or ironic thing about it is her father and my father knew each other in Japan. Yeah, they grew up together, and their parents, their mothers knew each other. So when my father went back for the first time, he went back in ' ; 52, there was, let' ; s see, he left in 19- so it was like 35 years, went back. And they both had white hair, and their mothers' ; had black hair ' ; cause in Japan, they all dye it. And so they made ' ; em dye their hair, so when he-my father-came back it was dark, dark-haired. But I know they-they didn' ; t want them to come back to America. They wanted to keep them. AT: Had you ever thought about leaving Chicago for Seattle or? AK: I would love to have lived in Seattle. No, Chicago is my home. Actually I, living in this area' ; s longer than I' ; ve lived anywhere else. Sadly, all the buildings that we once lived in are no longer around. But all the children my age or a little older that lived in that community really have fond memories, yeah. The times we would play baseball in the park or go to the lake, swimming, and we would bike around the neighborhood, very carefree. Yeah, my girlfriend and I always talk about the freedom that we had, you know, nothing that we could do now, but at that time, it was- it was wonderful. AT: We only have a few more minutes here, but before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or you wanna be sure to talk about? AK: Well, in contrast to my parents' ; life, my husband and I, we always thought we had such a good life, and they provided for us, and... Like they went through Depression, the war, the relocation, and then my father went through urban renewal. It' ; s just... yeah... We were lucky. I' ; m sure that' ; s true of all the immigrants who came. You know. The sons and daughters had the advantages. And then our children have even more advantages, but then they didn' ; t have the... the sense of community that we did. ' ; Cause not only do we know our friends, but we know the mothers and fathers, we know the sisters and brothers. For a while there, we would have a reunion in Las Vegas, that Tonko would arrange, and there was quite a few people, like 200 people, you know. AT: What was that reunion for or who was it for? AK: Chicago reunion for all the people who were either involved in the clubs or involved with the basketball or anybody who wanted to come and share their good times. Tonko and Pauline, I don' ; t know if you know Pauline, they stopped doing it a couple years ago. I guess it was just too much to handle, but for a while there, yeah, we were going every, like, five years, and then it became three years, and then it became two years because we wanted to get together. We had a good time, yeah. So I don' ; t think, you know, like, if you were raised today, and you weren' ; t involved in that community, you would probably know a few families, but here we know a lot of families, yeah. AT: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and coming in and sharing with us. AK: Oh, you' ; re welcome. You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://www.saitolincoln.com/ohms-viewer-3.8.6/render.php?cachefile=KawamotoAmy20180302.xml KawamotoAmy20180302.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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Title
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Kawamoto, Amy (3/2/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Amy Kawamoto discusses her experiences as a young child in Minidoka concentration camp, and her family’s experience after resettling in Chicago. Mrs. Kawamoto went to participated in a girls club, attended to the Buddhist Temple of Chicago, and later taught at the school where she was once a student.
Subject
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1946
Date
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2018-03-02
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video
Series: Untold Stories
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Omachi, Chiyoko
Interview Keyword
Terminal Island
Poston
Arizona
Pennsylvania
Mennonites
Christian
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/20/2018 Omachi, Chiyoko (3/20/2018) 1:45:03 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery and/or the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945 Terminal Island Poston Arizona Pennsylvania Mennonites Christian Omachi, Chiyoko Takada, Anna video 1:|13(3)|21(5)|27(8)|41(3)|53(8)|59(16)|70(5)|80(11)|94(2)|106(3)|116(7)|140(10)|150(11)|157(16)|169(3)|186(11)|198(12)|208(16)|217(8)|223(12)|233(13)|241(10)|249(14)|256(12)|264(7)|273(10)|280(7)|301(9)|311(13)|330(11)|347(2)|363(10)|378(3)|387(11)|393(5)|399(7)|404(3)|411(1)|417(10)|424(5)|431(5)|445(1)|475(11)|495(13)|502(5)|512(14)|551(8)|575(13)|588(2)|602(5)|612(1)|618(9)|625(5)|635(15)|647(8)|656(15)|665(13)|673(9)|683(6)|703(16)|708(1)|723(1)|738(5)|750(6)|758(3)|777(5)|796(13)|803(2)|826(12)|844(10)|865(6)|892(2)|905(7)|935(7)|956(2)|998(4)|1012(2)|1019(12)|1038(2)|1055(8)|1084(9)|1102(1)|1116(5)|1130(12)|1144(12)|1154(7)|1176(1)|1183(14)|1191(3)|1232(11)|1242(5)|1252(10)|1262(15)|1271(6)|1288(6)|1304(1)|1321(5)|1351(9)|1374(5)|1384(12)|1404(10)|1412(5)|1418(10)|1428(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/279883664/b6d7fbb36c Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/279883664" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Chiyoko describes her experiences growing up on Terminal Island. She talks about moving to L.A. right before the Evacuation and her experiences at the school there. Chiyoko describes what camp life and food was like. She discusses leaving the Poston to go to school and work inland. She talks about a Mennonite family she has fond memories of. Chiyoko explains why she resettled in the Midwest and why she joined the Resettlers Committee and the importance of supporting other Japanese Americans. She is glad that the JASC is doing the oral history project and hopes her story and other stories will be helpful for future generations. Anna Takada:This is an interview with Chiyoko Omachi as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on March 30th, 2018 at about 1:15 PM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Chiyoko Omachi is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? Chiyoko Omachi:My name is Chiyoko Omachi, Omachi. AT:And where, and when were you born? CO:I was born on Terminal Island, California, which is in Los Angeles harbor. I think the place exists no more. Um, I was born on July 12, 1926. And my folks had two children before me and these two died. And so when I came along they wanted to give me a long name, a Japanese name that had good vibes and Chiyoko means a thousand generations. AT:And your parents where, where were they from? Where were they born? CO:My father was from Japan-- Southern Japan, and he was a shipbuilder. He left Japan on an English ship and went to England and was in England for a while and then he came back to the United States. He met, a Japanese, shipbuilder and they decided to build ships together, on Terminal Island where there were very many Japanese fishermen and they thought that, you know, that they would build ships there and they could sell them. We have pictures of the shipyard. They did build very large ships. These two were strangers really. But my father was single, at the time this year [mumbles] the strange, stranger-- the two men, two Japanese from two different parts of Japan. And I guess the, the old-- the older gentleman says, well, " ; I have a, a daughter in Japan, you' ; ll have to meet her, and perhaps you would marry her." ; And so he called her over. And my-- turned out to be my mother. They got married and they lived happily for many, many years. AT:And so that was when your father was in, or at Terminal Island CO:Right. AT:And she came into like-- CO:Right, and that was, oh, I don' ; t know, 19-- I used to know exactly the, the years that they started the shipyards. But, it was way before I was born. I was born in 1926. I have a feeling it was about 1920. And we have pictures of this, of these shipyards. And they were very large, you know, places. 2nd Interviewer:Your mother' ; s family was from Wakayama Prefecture and your father' ; s family was from Kawashima. CO:Right. [Overlapping " ; and" ; ] And in Japan they never would have met, you know. AT:It was just through the connection of the [overlapping dialogue] right now. And so, uh, what are, what are some of your memories of Terminal Island? CO:Oh, you know, that was such a wonderful place. We were only about four blocks from the ocean, from the beach. And-- we had-- it' ; s a small island-- manmade island really. We had a ferry boat that went across to San Pedro and there was a drawbridge on one side of the island. We had a car. Not many people had cars, but my father was mad for cars and he had a number of, of wonderful old cars. And when I was growing up, I guess we had a car that no one has heard of: the Moon. And we had a Plymouth. He had two cars. One was called the Moon and the other one was a Plymouth. A Plymouth was a sedan and the Moon was a roadster, you know, with the-- what did they call those? A rumble seat. I, that' ; s what they used to call them. The back was like a, a coupe with the, the back-- It would be like a trunk, that opened up and, there were seats, there was a seat back there and you would sit in the open air. Wonderful little car. AT:And was it pretty common for people to have cars at that time? CO:No. No. Whatever moneys there was, or there were [laughs] Papa had to have a car or two. And, I think grandfather enjoyed cars because we have a picture of the children in front of the cars. [Turns to 2nd interviewer off screen] Do you remember what, what that was? [No answer off screen]. It might' ; ve been an English car. I' ; ll probably recall, then it' ; ll be too late to report. But-- yeah, they-- my father loved cars. He was a bad driver. AT:And does that mean-- you said there was a photograph with your grandparents, were they in the U.S. as well? CO:Yes. Yeah, my father-- my grandparents, I think the year I was born my grandfather died and-- a really sad accident in the-- at the seaside. But my father lived till he was 70, and he was very keen on educating the children, especially he wanted me to go to college and when the war came, you know, we were in camp-- I will jump ahead-- but I was in camp and my father said, well, " ; You have to get out of here because the education you' ; re getting in camp is so inadequate, you' ; ll never be able to go to college otherwise. And so I left early. I left camp to go to live with my uncle in Pennsylvania and went to high school in Pennsylvania. AT:Just to go back a little bit to talk more about your family. Can you tell me more about, about your grandparents and how and when they ended up in California as well? And was this your, your father' ; s parents? CO:No, this would be, well, they were strangers, but my father married his partner' ; s daughter. AT:Right. Okay. CO:And so he, he knew, you know, this, this man and his family before he, he got married to one of the daughters. And, in fact, the daughter was in Japan, my mother to be, and they called her to the United States. And, she had been left in Japan and lived there while the mother and father came to the United States and started a family here. So I had an aunt, well, I have two aunts and one uncle who were American citizens. And then my mother came into the picture, got married to his partner, you know, AT:And your father' ; s parents, were they still in Japan? CO:My father' ; s family. We never did meet my, my father' ; s family. But, all of my, my maternal grandparents, you know, they were here in this country and people would say, some of my Nisei friends would say Very unusual for you to have a grandparent here, a grandmother. And, so I did until I was still in college I think when she was still alive. 2nd Interviewer:Do you know what caused Baayan and her husband-- this would be my great grandmother-- what caused them to come from Japan, if you know? CO:Well, I think, the grandfather, I think he wanted to come to America. They came specifically to Terminal Island because that' ; s where the Japanese fisherman were and they wanted to come and build ships there. 3rd Interviewer:So they came unrelated to, to your father' ; s side? CO:Yeah. My father met the grandparents then in America. 3rd Interviewer:Yeah. CO:You know, they were partners first, shipbuilders together. And then as I say, he said, " ; Well, I' ; ve got a daughter in Japan. 3rd Interviewer:OK CO:And so my mother came over when she was about 16. 2nd Interviewer:The great grandmother [overlapping dialogue] CO:[overlapping dialogue] She was young 2nd Interviewer:The great grandfather must have had some of-- his family must' ; ve had some funds right. For him to come over to the US. CO:Well, I don' ; t know that the, the Japanese who came to this country, that came as immigrants, I think, you know, they, they must' ; ve borrowed or whatever they had to do or gathered all the moneys from relatives and they would come and they lived, you know, humbly. 2nd Interviewer:Right. CO:They didn' ; t have to live as we would expect to, to live in this country. [Overlapping dialogue] I saw there were a lot of fishermen on the Terminal Island and they would-- I think what happened was there would be, a man or a group-- perhaps a cooperative that would own a boat and they would have a captain, like [Kashi' ; s?] father was a captain. Very smart, advanced, knew-- what' ; s the word?-- how to man a ship. These were large ships. And my father, when he was building the ships, it was very complicated, you know. He used to talk to me about building because, I was, you, I was the-- I had two brothers who were about three or four years older than I, but one was a stillborn child and died, and the other one was a toddler and he passed away. And so my father used to treat me like a, a boy, and I used to go out with them and help him caulk ships. I know how to do that. And he would take me out to the workplace, and they would be doing all manner of stuff to the, these ships. And I would go around-- I remember being very young and asking Papa, " ; How do you do this and what are-- what is this for?" ; And he would take me to lunch with him and we would have clam chowder [interviewers chuckle] at the restaurant. And I felt very fortunate because I had a younger brother. I, I have a young brother and a sister, but I was the one that learned to make kites. And I used to make ships and, you know, I was-- I was the little boy and, and then the war came and my brother was much younger. And so-- AT:When were your younger siblings born? CO:Well, let' ; s see. I was born in ' ; 26. My brother was born in ' ; 29, I think, and then my sister in ' ; 30. AT:So just they are a few years younger. CO:Yeah. AT:And can you describe kind of what your life was like in Terminal Island before the war? I guess like-- CO:Oh AT:Family life and school. CO:Oh, it was wonderful. I had a surfboard [chuckles] I didn' ; t know how to swim. [points at 2nd interviewer] My daughter is horrified. The lawyer. My daughter. That I used to drag this red surfboard to the beach and waddle about. There was a nice-- oh, what is it called? There were these rocky enclosures and so-- 3rd Interviewer:Jetty. CO:You know, it was a break. What did they call those-- 2nd Interviewer:A breakwater? AT:Well a breaker, so that the sea wouldn' ; t come roaring in. It would break out yonder the, the surf would just be calm as it came in. And I used to go out there quite often myself. And, used to make sandcastles and stay down at the beach for quite a while. I was very independent, I think as a child. And my brother and sister didn' ; t follow me, always. I think my sister seemed much younger, somehow, and she, she would stay at home. AT:Growing up, did you speak any Japanese at home? CO:Yeah, at home, we, we spoke Japanese until we went to school and I think we learned English in school. That was very hard, I think going to school. I remember not wanting to drink milk and they wanted me to drink, you know, half a pint or whatever, it' ; s milk, and never liked milk at home and never drank it at, at home. And so I said, I don' ; t want to go to school. But my father said, " ; Well you have to go to school in order to learn. Oh, to learn arithmetic, I think. Sanjutsu, I think it' ; s called in Japanese. Math and I thought, oh, okay. [Laughs] AT:Did you go to Japanese school or was that around? CO:Well let' ; s see. We went to Japanese school for a little bit. Our family was Baptist. There were two, there was a Baptist Church on this island-- Terminal Island-- but most of the Japanese were Buddhists and there was a large Buddhist Temple, and not a temple, you know, but, a church. I don' ; t really know where it was, but the Japanese had Japanese school in, in the church, the Baptist church I believe. But I was still too young. I don' ; t think I went, I may have belonged for a year to Japanese school, but I didn' ; t like Japanese school. I didn' ; t do very well as I recall. But, my folks were very lenient-- I think too, I was-- I think because I had these two brothers who passed away, they took very good care of me health wise, and I was anemic as a child and they were very concerned. You know, that I have-- that I had rare steak to eat-- Oh, that wasn' ; t, that wasn' ; t, that wasn' ; t what I wanted, but anyway. They were very... I think they made me into a hypochondriac. [Everyone laughs] Well, I was always, I think, concerned because I was thin and underweight and everyone said, " ; Oh, well she' ; s anemic you know. Well, as it turned out, I was an early diabetic and that was rare, you know, and, I had a diabetic specialist in Chicago who said, " ; The Japanese are not diabetics." ; That' ; s-- he thought it was rare. AT:Did you find that out much later in life? CO:Yeah, much later. But then, everyone in my family, you know, my Japanese family, were-- many of us are diabetics. And so, in fact there was a Japanese scholar, a physician who was at the University of Chicago, and he was from my mother' ; s province, and he was very interested in the family and said, " ; Oh, that' ; s very interesting." ; He didn' ; t say one thing or the other about how rare it was. But, he wanted to know about my history and then my relatives in California who were, you know, many who are diabetics over there. AT:Going back to life at Terminal Island. So let' ; s see. Were there-- at the time when you were growing up-- were there-- what were, I guess the, the demographics around there. And were there other Japanese American families? CO:Oh yeah. Well, you know, the, there was-- the island was divided into two parts and, the one part was-- they used to call it fish harbor and that' ; s where the ships came in with the fish and the were canneries there. I think there was Starkist tuna was there and a couple of other fisheries. And, most of the Japanese fishermen lived over there and the wives used to work in the canneries, and when they had-- when the fish would come in-- and I guess they would cook them however they did that-- they would blow a whistle and the women would go to work and you could hear it all over the island except our part. It was a long island and, our part of the island was called Brighton Beach and close to Long Beach. There was a bridge on our side and there were a lot of old but nice looking old homes. Some were dilapidated because, you know, the white people would-- from Long Beach-- would come to Terminal Island in the summer. And, because there was this nice expansive beach-- and would spend the summers there. And when we were growing up, we had one of these homes, my father being a carpenter, a shipbuilder and a contractor for homes. He fixed up this old home and it was wonderful with French windows. And, it was two story. And, some of our friends from other parts of California would come to visit us and stay for weeks. And, it would seem months, and we would go to the beach and the popsicle man would come every afternoon. It was, you know, quite, quite wonderful living on Terminal Island. And the fishing village was way on the other side where, you know, the, the tuna canneries were, and it was congested and smelly and-- but our side of the island was a totally different place. We had trees, palm trees, date trees, palms. Very pleasant. We were the only ones on the block that had a telephone, as I recall. People would come day and night to use the telephone. AT:And, as far as school, and I guess your, your peers as a kid, and, and growing up-- were folks, mostly Japanese American or-- CO:[overlapping dialogue] Then the school I went to was called Banning High school in Wilmington and we used to take a bus to get there. And I don' ; t know how that happened. Perhaps part of the island was in their district. So we-- the bus would come in the morning and we would get on the bus, and there were white children, not so many Asians, not so many Japanese. I don' ; t know that we had-- I don' ; t think we had Chinese friends. I think we were all Japanese, and white friends and they would put us on the bus and we' ; d go to Banning High school. And that' ; s where-- oh, what is his name? AT:Sam Ozaki? CO:Yeah, Sam Ozaki was that part of the-- well, they were from a farming community near Wilmington and they used to bus in I think. But we would be coming from, you know, Terminal Island was way over yonder. And we knew Ozaki-- my uncle knew the Ozaki' ; s because they were about the same age. I was much younger, I think than Sam would have been. And Lily. Yeah. AT:So you would' ; ve been in high school when the war broke out-- CO:Yeah, I was 15 AT:Sophomore year of high school. CO:Pardon? AT:Were you at-- in your second year of high school then? CO:I was there-- well we-- they had a junior high there-- junior high and senior high. And so I was going to Banning already, and my uncle who lived-- well for a while they lived in San Pedro over-- they lived in Wilmington and those in Wilmington went to Banning High school. And my uncle was I think six years older than I. My aunt, who was his younger, the youngest sibling was, I guess she was five years older than I and he was-- would have been Sam' ; s friend or about the same year. Uncle Yas just died. [turns to 2nd interviewer] And he was in his nineties, wasn' ; t he? 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. Yeah. AT:Before the war broke out, did you ever experience any kind of discrimination or-- CO:Yeah, we were on Terminal Island and, they gave us 48 hours to leave-- 2nd Interviewer:She' ; s asking before. Remember you told us about not being able to go to the swimming pool? CO:Oh, that was-- [overlapping dialogue] You know, all, all Asians were not invited. [overlapping dialogue] Blacks were not invited [overlapping dialogue] Mexicans were not invited [overlapping dialogue] 2nd Interviewer:She wants to know before the war. Did you guys experience any discrimination? Before you were taken to the camps as a child, did you experience discrimination? CO:Not really because we lived in the homogeneous, you know-- 3rd Interviewer:Isolated. CO:Yeah, mostly, mostly Asian. Although Terminal Island it was a mixed group, but there were more Asians-- more Japanese, I think, even on our side of the island, than white. We had a Russian family and I was very curious about them. Never found out much about, you know, where they came from or what-- I think the father was a fisherman somehow, but he would have been an odd bird, you know 3rd Interviewer:Where you weren' ; t allowed to go to the, the swimming pool? CO:There were no swimming pools there anyway. 3rd Interviewer:What is she talking about? [Overlapping dialogue] You weren' ; t allowed to-- to somewhere CO:Well, wherever there were swimming pools, Asians were not, you know, invited. They were excluded, let' ; s say, they were not invited. They were excluded and Mexicans. 3rd Interviewer:Were there other examples of things that you couldn' ; t do because you were Asian? CO:Yeah, I' ; m sure there were. 3rd Interviewer:Like places you couldn' ; t-- you weren' ; t allowed to go. 2nd Interviewer:Did you ever come into Los Angeles or did you stay in-- CO:Yeah, well my Father had those cars and we, we drove around [laughs]. 2nd Interviewer:I know, but when you came into LA [overlapping dialogue] CO:We would go to Los Angeles [overlapping dialogue] about 25 or 30, I don' ; t know how many miles it was. It' ; s just, some childhood numbers I had in my head and it must have been further. We would go to Japanese and Chinese restaurants in Little Tokyo, you know. There was no such restaurant in, in Terminal Island, although there was a place called the New York Cafe and Papa and I used to go there for clam chowder. AT:That was on the island? [overlapping dialogue] CO:Very, very good. [laughs] AT:That restaurant was on the island? CO:It was on the island yeah. When, when he would be working and I would go with him. And I would be about 10, 11, 12 when I was helping him because I could do a number of things. And he taught me-- oh, he used to tell me about all these differences in Japanese and American tools, you know, and how can you sharpen the saws this way. And then in the American way you go to do it from the other side. I have all manner of stuff in my head about tools. And he had planes, the Japanese planes were different and you drew them instead of, you know-- American planes you use, I don' ; t know which way it goes, but anyway, the Japanese did it the other way. AT:Can you tell me about your memories of the war starting and-- CO:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was a Sunday and my grandmother had come to the Baptist church. She was going home on the ferry. And then, I think, one of the-- my uncle or my aunt called to say, " ; Grandma wasn' ; t on the ferry." ; They must have-- they used to meet her on the other side, I think cause it was a little, oh, maybe, I don' ; t know in mileage, how far they were from the ferry boat, you know, down at the, down at the seaport. And they used to live way beyond there. And I suppose my grandmother wasn' ; t on the ferry. And, I think, on that day my uncle called and said, my grandmother wasn' ; t on the ferry. And I think the FBI rounded up all the Asians on the, or Japanese, on the ferry. And-- Now, this is very hazy. I can' ; t recall exactly. Because we were having all sorts of excitement on our side of the island. We had just come back from the church, from church, and they said the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor. And we were prob-- I was listening to the radio and, and then I don' ; t remember the rest of the day, but I know my grandmother finally did get home. Her children must have picked her up at the ferry, took her home. And we were on this side, Terminal Island. And then soon after that they were patrolling the, the, the roads-- jeeps and soldiers. And then it wasn' ; t until several months later that they said, oh, they wanted all the Japs off the island in 48 hours. And so the Baptist church in Los Angeles, which was the, you know, the, the mother or father church, the one that was in-- on the island-- came in buses. And it seems to me, we packed up our things [mumbles] my father was busy running around helping our friends because the fathers had been taken away by the, the government. Well, my father, not being a fisherman, was not scooped up. And so he went around and helped. And then my uncle who was, you know, this young man, came across and helped us pack and get ready to move. And, and then we sold everything. You know, my mother had huge, beautiful dishes and we had a new console, RCA victor radio-phono-combination thing. And I think he sold it or gave it to some neighbor down the street. We just got rid of everything. And we had had a new refrigerator, an ice box. It was [gestures] it was still an ice box, I think. But got rid of everything. And I over our-- we had a fireplace and on the mantle I used to have a, a little yacht about, I don' ; t know how big it would be, you know, but from an adult point of view maybe about [gestures] that long. And, and the cabin was scooped up. It was beautiful, little old ship with a mast. And, the cabin was where I sat and it had wheels, and must have given that away to some neighbor or something. But it was a wonderful teak and Mahogany ship that was my kiddy car. But all those things-- all of our books-- we had two encyclopedias and we left everything and got on these buses that the Baptist church sent down for its members there weren' ; t that many members. And, the-- there was a Japanese minister who was a wonderful man of the church: Yamamoto Sensei, and my father was the only other man because all the rest of them were fishermen and they had been hauled away. So there were about two or three men. I think there was one other man, maybe an old man. And we got on the bus and it took us away to Los Angeles and the Baptist Church there had a summer, summer camp or something, with a kitchen, you know, and-- I, I think like little cottages and, uh, my grandmother was with us and my aunt and, and we all stayed in this little place and we felt very comfortable cause we had our-- all of our relatives with us. But, I remember Kaz Yamashita' ; s Father was taken away by the government-- he was a fishermen and his mother and my mother were good friends and so it was so sad. All the men were gone. So my father was one of the few men left. AT:And the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked, as a 15 year old, do you remember your reactions or, or what you were feeling at that time? Did you know [overlapping dialogue] CO:No, I think we, we knew that it meant that Japan had, you know, attacked America, and what that must mean for us. AT:Did you have-- CO:No. AT:Do you remember-- CO:Not much. No, not much understanding. AT:Did you have convers-- [overlapping] CO:A lot of fear. AT:Did you have conversations with your parents about any of that or-- CO:No, not much. My Auntie Kiki was my, my friend and, you know. And of course we spoke English and our parents didn' ; t. There was that difference. Whereas my aunts and uncles-- [overlapping] 2nd Interviewer:Auntie Kiki was only five, four-five years older. So she' ; s kind of [overlapping] like a sister-- CO:Yeah, my aunt was only five years older than I, we were good pals. 3rd Interviewer:And you didn' ; t know enough Japanese to communicate that well with your parents? CO:Who me? 3rd Interviewer:Yeah. AT:No. 3rd Interviewer:And they didn' ; t know that much English? CO:Well, my aunt, yeah. My aunt and my uncles, would spoke much-- 3rd Interviewer:They translated? [overlapping] CO:Much better Japanese. No they-- No, there was no-- no, I don' ; t think [overlapping from 2nd Interviewer] So we had a vague understanding of what was going on, you know. But, I don' ; t think the parents knew what was going on either. AT:And what were some, do you remember? Because I mean, Terminal Island was, of course, you know, very impacted immediately-- CO:Yeah AT:After Pearl Harbor. Can you tell us just sort of what was happening? Like what the feelings were at the time or, you know, because I imagine people were probably-- CO:Well, you know, when the, and then the men were taken, and-- AT:How soon, were people starting to-- [overlapping] CO:Well, my father was not because he wasn' ; t a fisherman and I think they were after fishermen because they had the idea that the fishermen were-- could contact the Japanese. Well, they weren' ; t doing any such thing because-- for one thing, the Japanese, unless they had planted people-- which I doubt-- the Japanese fisherman were a different, a different class of people than the ruling-- the, the Japanese who were rulers in Japan and it would have been orchestrating whatever, you know, whoever was orchestrating the, the war. Well the class differences, I think, the Japanese were very-- What is that? You wouldn' ; t even call it sensitive, you would say, class differences would, would mean that, you know, the ruling bodies in Japan would not be in-- 3rd Interviewer:Communication. CO:Yeah, communication with the likes of fishermen, you know, whereas my father was well educated. He' ; d been to England [laughs] It was [overlapping dialogue] different, you know, different class of people. AT:Was your family fearful that your father might get picked up by the FBI as well? CO:Yeah. Yeah. He was all packed, you know, and his suitcase all ready, but they never took him. And he could never understand why [laughs]. 3rd Interviewer:Wait, so they took the men somewhere else? CO:Yeah, and I think they-- 3rd Interviewer:Before you went to camps? CO:I think so. Oh, yeah. A little time before we went to camp and we left that island, it was like five months. 2nd Interviewer:So did the fishermen ever come back? CO:We went to Terminal Island. We went to Los Angeles because the Baptist Church helped us. Now how the other folks on that island, what they did, I don' ; t know. 2nd Interviewer:So you don' ; t know what the fishermen' ; s families ended up doing? CO:No 2nd Interviewer:Did they have to go with the mom and the kids? CO:Yeah except the Baptists. 2nd Interviewer:And the fathers weren' ; t around. CO:You know that were the Baptist and they went with us. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah, but you had no idea what happened to everybody else? CO:No, you know. 3rd Interviewer:Where did they take all the fishermen? CO:Pardon? 3rd Interviewer:Where did they take all the fishermen? CO:I don' ; t know at that time whether they took them to, 3rd Interviewer:They went straight to camp? CO:Well, they went to Lincoln, you know, what was the name of that place? AT:Um, there were a couple of Department of Justice camps, which were like separate from CO:From men, from women AT:And from like the 10 camps that we know. CO:It wasn' ; t known to anyone at the time. Where did they go? AT:Yeah. And those, those were technically internment camps because there were some German nationals and CO:That' ; s right, at that time. AT:Um, so you mentioned, um, you know, immediately after Pearl Harbor there was kind of this change of, you know, people were getting picked up and there was now, you know, a patrol on the islands. Um, how, so how soon after Pearl Harbor did the, did you hear about the Evacuation and have 48 hours? CO:Then we went, it was around February, I think we went to Los Angeles by way of uh the Baptist, the Great Baptist Church, whoever it is. Umm AT:What' ; s the name of the church? Do you remember? CO:Well it' ; s the Baptist, the head of the, was it called the, I don' ; t know. It' ; s a Northern Baptist. I, I have a book actually about those times. And, um, my friend Kanshi wrote a chapter in there. I was going to bring that, and I should have brought that. I could show that to you. Um. AT:And so do I have it right, that you, um, your family, the Baptist Church was offering, um, housing for families before the actual Evacuation? CO:Yeah and so we went to Los Angeles. I even have time to start going to the high school there. And I went to high school, uh, in Los Angeles, that city proper for, I don' ; t know, three or four months. AT:And what exactly was the, um, uh, the purpose of leaving Terminal Island and CO:Well, just because I think there were so many of us there, Japanese there, they wanted to get all the fishermen off that island, you know. AT:So was that a, was that a government order to evacuate the island? CO:Yeah, I think so. Yeah. AT:Okay. Um and can you tell me a little bit more about what it was like at, the living at the church? CO:Oh. And then we went to Los Angeles, and it was, it was, um, ummm, it was very pleasant actually. It was, uh, enclosed, you know, they had, um, it was an enclosed area. They must have had, ummm various churches I think in California. Used to have summer kind of rallies or summer programs where they used to, um, where the young people would, would gather together, uh, for maybe a month or whatever, uh, in these very pleasant places by the beach. Um, and they were from, you know, inland communities. I know my friend, uh, Ruth used to come down from her folks were farming, uh, living in a farming community. And they used come down to Terminal Island in the summer. And, uh, you know, we' ; d go to the beach and it would be very pleasant. And, uh, when the war started, let' ; s see, they were, well, we were all taken to, to different places. But before then, I think the numbers of people chose to, you know, move if they could, to places, uh, near their friends or to a community they were, well, we don' ; t know too many of these folks. But I know my, my aunt and, um, uncle and grandmother lived on, you know, the, in San Pedro, which was across from Terminal Island. And when it was time for us to go to Los Angeles, uh, and that the church took us, they decided they would come with us instead of being out there by themselves as we were very close anyway, you know, my mother and her mother. Um, and so they came with us and we were in Los Angeles together. And that was very, that was very helpful because, um, uh, you know, I, I may have been the, the oldest child in the family, but still very young. And whereas my Auntie Kiki was five years older than I, and I always considered her, my big sister. And I used to tag along with her whenever she' ; d go someplace interesting, I would go with her. Um, so was with us. And that was, you know, very comforting I think. AT:And um, so where did you go from the church in LA, um, then what happened to your family? CO:And then, we were, you know, there were, um, rumors of a. Okay, the Japanese were going to be sent inland, they' ; re going to be put in, uh, inland camps. We didn' ; t know where. Although people knew about Manzanar already. They said there' ; s going to be a place out in the desert and they' ; re going to make us go live out there. Uh, and then my mother, in fact, they started saying, " ; Well, we better get ready, um, the children ought to have a boots." ; So my mother takes us out and we' ; d go out and buy boots. 2nd Interviewer:Snow boots? CO:Yeah, a little, really cute little boots for all of us. Michi, small feet and um, and she buys some clothes for us. Get, get ready to go into the desert and we didn' ; t know if that was true. Rumors. Um, but it gave them something to do while we were in Los Angeles. But I went to school there in Los Angeles for about three months, I think. Um big school. Um, huge compared to what we were used to. And, um, and then sure enough, you know, the sign came up and said " ; All Japanese." ; I' ; ve got one of those messages. Anyway. AT:[Sneeze] Excuse me CO:Um, so we had to uh, carry one bag and go down to the train station and wait. So we waited and waited. And finally. And there were ah soldiers, um, with guns and they loaded us. Um, you know, there was no, uh, ummm, there was no noise. There were, there was no, uh, nothing we just said, " ; March into the trains" ; . And we did and we waited and they carried us out into the desert. And we weren' ; t too far from Los Angeles cause we at the border there, you know, the Colorado River was there, Arizona. AT:What was going on through, in your minds at the time, if you recall? You know, as a 15 year old who was already moved and gotten rid of some of your things, what was going on through in your mind, you know, get going onto the trains and the uncertainty. Do you remember how you felt? CO:Not really. And that' ; s, um, I don' ; t know. I suppose it' ; s suppressed, but, um, I can' ; t recall that we were. Well, it was, um, comforting I think because we were with our family, you know, and, um, my aunts and uncles were always um. And my uncle was very, um, he was a leader. Don' ; t you know, you know, he was, uh, someone that, um, well he' ; s the only, let' ; s see, it' ; s my aunt and my uncle and then, uh, and an aunt who was already married. But my uncle Yas was always, um, very knowledgeable, very savvy. In fact, you know, my father, um said, " ; Well, you don' ; t want it to be evacuated with the rest of us." ; So he gave him some money and told him to leave. So my uncle did leave. AT:Leaving the military zones? CO:Well, he left uh, I don' ; t think, came with us to Los Angeles, you know. His sister, his sister, married sister. Um, and we were all together and the his mother, but he went off to Pennsylvania and uh, and then I ended up in Pennsylvania with him and my auntie, um the one who went to camp with us. The one that was only five years older than I, we were very close and I lived with her and him in Pennsylvania. I went to high school there. My father, you know, said, well, we don' ; t want you to stay here because, uh, we want you to go to college. AT:So before we talk about Pennsylvania, um, you got on the train and so which camp? CO:Yeah, I left camp my father said, " ; Go." ; AT:Which camp did your family go to? CO:We were in Poston. 3rd Interviewer:Arizona? CO:Pardon? 3rd Interviewer:In Arizona? CO:Yeah, in Arizona. And because Papa was a contractor and uh, you know, he was, um, he made ships but he made, he built homes too. And he built a big uh Tenrikyo Temple on Terminal Island. Uh, Tenrikyo is a, uh, Buddhist sect. Wonderful big, uh, temple. Anyway, so when he went to camp. He was the camp, um, whatever they needed for. I don' ; t know if they, they must' ; ve had, uh, someone perhaps who oversaw the, uh, ummm. The camp buildings, a papa, was part of that team or whatever he, he rode around and uh, I don' ; t know what they did. Looked for leaks perhaps, you know. Um, but that' ; s why I think I was able to leave camp before any other, uh, anyone my size and age left camp. I left and went off by myself when, came to Chicago and met up with some Baptists who took me in. And then my uncle came along on his car and picked me up and we went to Pennsylvania. 2nd Interviewer:But the weird thing was before you were able to leave, you had to get FBI clearance? CO:Oh yeah. 2nd Interviewer:You had to make sure you were, what not a threat or whatever. And then you were able to get the out there, which is very ironic I think. CO:Oh, yeah, well, it was a given. I think, you know, the West Coast and East Coast clearance and the FBI and the local police had to know that you were uh 3rd Interviewer:How long were you at the camp before? CO:Not longer than a year and a half, I guess. I can' ; t 3rd Interviewer:That' ; s a good amount of time. CO:Yeah. You know, uh, you know, people were there for what, four or five years. AT:Do you remember your first impressions of the camp? CO:Well, when we went to camp, we, they gave us a huge bag and we filled it up with hay. Uh, and that was to be our mattress. And, uh, I kept saying, be sure we don' ; t capture any insects and whatever and put them in there. And, uh, I guess that was a serviceable, mattress dragged it into our little, a homely, homely spot. Um. AT:Do you remember your block number or your part? CO:I think I do. 7C I believe, but I' ; m not sure. AT:And, um, can you just describe a little bit about life in camp? Um, what were some of the routines for you as well? CO:Well, we ate in a mess hall, you know. We were lucky because we had a lot of men in our camp who had been, uh, who had been uh restaurant owners in Los Angeles, so we had good grub. Um, and they had to make the most of whatever the government gave them. Uh, just stuff. Um, perhaps not, you know, that they made a good meals. In fact, the kids used to go from, from block to block. I mean, they would hear about some block having good food, and so they would all go over there for lunch or dinner. Um, and, uh, our four blocks, uh, were the city blocks from Los Angeles and there are a number of the restaurant owners. And so they had uh some good meals they said. Well, we didn' ; t wander around, but uh 3rd Interviewer:Did you go to school there? CO:Yeah, they had, not right away, but then they started a school and, uh, ummm. But let me see. They can, um, they, uh, I don' ; t know how they recruited teachers, but we had some very poor teachers. And, uh, then we had a ummm, college students, uh, you know, Nisei, Japanese college students or college graduates who were teaching. And some of them were good and some of them were poor. 2nd Interviewer:I imagine you didn' ; t have any supplies, you probably didn' ; t have any books? CO:What? 2nd Interviewer:You probably didn' ; t have any books or anything, did you? CO:Oh no, we had books. No um. 3rd Interviewer:Were there white people? CO:Yeah, there were a few white teachers who came in. Some of them were. 2nd Interviewer:Volunteers? CO:Very good volunteers, dedicated, you know, people. 3rd Interviewer:And they were like sympathetic to CO:Yeah sympathetic. And others who were hardly able to teach. We had some really bad teachers too. 2nd Interviewer:How about the picking of cotton? Why did you have to do that? CO:What? 2nd Interviewer:The picking of cotton? CO:Oh yeah. Well, they tried to, you know, oh gosh. Um, they had a camouflage. Um, they wanted to start uh a camouflage? Uh, you can' ; t call it a plant because there aren' ; t enough. I suppose the, um, the government tried various ways to, uh, uh, to use the labor of these, uh, prisoners. Uh, and let' ; s see, um, I don' ; t know. Where were we? They drove us, um, high school kids, uh, away from the camp out somewhere. And, um, it was, um, uh, um, a massive, um, uh, cotton, cotton growing, very interesting. Big bolls of cotton. And we were picking up and then they gave us these huge bags and we were trailing, dragging behind us and picking cotton. And I looked at this thing and I thought, how many years would it take to fill this bag up. This thing was humongous and each person had one of these bags? Well, I suppose, you know, this is what happened to the Black folks. You know, picking cotton. And one at a time. And think, I picked half a day I think is what we did. AT:And that was high school students? That were CO:Yeah they were, you know 2nd Interviewer:Summer vacation CO:Now can they, well, could they do that? Of course they could do whatever they wanted. AT:Were you paid for that? CO:Oh, absolutely not. No. Did they give us lunch, I wonder? 3rd Interviewer:Was that close to the camp? CO:Yeah, it was, you know, just outside. 2nd Interviewer:They' ; re teaching you a life skill. CO:Yeah, oh gosh. And then they had this camouflage plant or whatever. Not plant, this. And they had adult women who went out there. And I don' ; t know, were they painting, when I think of camouflage, I think, oh, green and khaki colored paint. Were they, what were they doing? AT:I think they were weaving nets. CO:Weaving! AT:To create those giant camouflage. So that was taking place at Poston as well? CO:Yeah. And I don' ; t know how successful these things were, you know, I mean we, we went out for half a day and exhausted but we can, uh, I don' ; t know. 3rd Interviewer:So you only did that once? CO:Yeah, we didn' ; t go out again. They didn' ; t want us. We weren' ; t worthy. AT:Did your, uh, father, was he paid for his work? On the building? CO:Yes. I think in camp, they were paid $19, $16 and $12. 3rd Interviewer:Per? CO:Month, I think. Did they have to give that back to the government for feeding them? I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know how that, you know, cause I never did earn anything. AT:And so it was, um, your father who mentioned that you should leave as soon as you can? CO:Oh yeah, he kept saying, I should. He kept saying I should leave all the time! AT:How did you feel about that? CO:Oh I felt that, yeah, I' ; m going to leave. I' ; m going to pack my bags and I' ; m going to leave! 3rd Interviewer:But what about your siblings? CO:Oh, I had no concerns. Mid to none. 3rd Interviewer:Really? CO:Yeah, no. They were kids. You know, I was a big one. I was always the. Did they read the encyclopedia? No. AT:And so can you tell us about the process of leaving camp? You had to jump through a number of hoops, it sounds like? CO:Yeah, I think so. Fill out forms, don' ; t you think? AT:And so you said you went to Chicago first? And then from Chicago CO:Well, yeah, all this was, you know, the trains come to Chicago. And someone met me here. 2nd Interviewer:You probably took off from the L.A. train station? CO:No! It was Arizona. The middle of you know 2nd Interviewer:Wherever. Poston must have had a train station. CO:Must have had a stop. Well, that was an Indian Reservation. 3rd Interviewer:So you went alone? CO:Yeah. 3rd Interviewer:And then what did you do in Chicago? CO:I came to Chicago. And um 3rd Interviewer:Where did you go? CO:Um, the Baptist. There was a Baptist Seminary on the West Side. I don' ; t know if this still exists. I looked for it once. Um, but that was so many years ago. Um, and I think there was a family. There, there was a husband and wife who were devout Baptists. Um, I didn' ; t know them too well because we were from Terminal Island. They were from Los Angeles, but they had, um, they had gotten a job here at this, at the Baptist seminary here. 3rd Interviewer:Japanese? CO:Um, it was on the West Side somewhere. 3rd Interviewer:They were Japanese people? CO:Yeah, they were, they were people I may have known kind of nominally. Not much, but they were much older than I. 3rd Interviewer:How are they able to leave? CO:They probably clearance and you know, able. They got a job. They had people who, uh, 3rd Interviewer:Vouched for them? CO:There must' ; ve been a whole, you know, all the paperwork. 2nd Interviewer:How were you, how was this funded? You think that Uncle Yas helped you? And how did, you know, if grandpa, his assets were taken all that, where did the funds come for you to get the train, to get on the train? CO:Who knows. 2nd Interviewer:You don' ; t know huh? CO:My father may have had a bag full of money, for all I know. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. So then when you got here, how long did you stay, in Chicago? CO:I was here for only a few days I think. And then. 2nd Interviewer:Uncle came to get you? CO:What was their name? Teragawa? Um, they were going to, they were going to, um, have me stay with them at in, uh, there in, uh. 2nd Interviewer:Oh, stay here in Chicago? CO:And I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think I did. I think Uncle Yas came really right at that point and we, I got on and we drove out East. And it was snowing and October. It was October. It was snowing in Ohio as we drove along. 3rd Interviewer:How was he able to get out though? Uncle Yas. CO:Uncle Yas had a car. 3rd Interviewer:But how, why was he able to leave? CO:He never went in. 2nd Interviewer:He never went in. CO:He never went in because my father said don' ; t come, go away. 2nd Interviewer:Stay away. CO:Go to Pennsylvania, where we had friends. 3rd Interviewer:So what, did he live on Terminal Island? CO:What? 3rd Interviewer:Uncle Yas CO:Uncle Yas? What? 3rd Interviewer:Did he live on Terminal Island? CO:No, never. He lived in San Pedro, across the way. 3rd Interviewer:So when all of this happened, he, Baayan and and Auntie Kiki. 3rd Interviewer:They just left? CO:Used to live in San Pedro. 3rd Interviewer:But they just left? CO:They were there and then Baayan left with us. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. But yeah, Kiki and Yas went to Pennsylvania. CO:No, Kiki went to camp. 2nd Interviewer:Okay. AT:Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago? CO:Yeah, I went to a Walgreens or something and I was drinking. There was this guy sat next to me, thought I was French. He said are you French? It was probably, What are you? You know, never saw the likes of you. You must be French. That was the funniest thing I thought. I' ; ll never forget this as long as I live. So funny. AT:And so your Uncle Yas Picked you up and drove to Pennsylvania? CO:Pennsylvania. AT:And so how long were you.. where in Pennsylvania, and how long were you there? CO:Oh, we were, we went to, um, we were in the town of Lancaster. Nice town. Big high school. You have to swim to graduate from high school. No, not I, so we looked for a small school, went to East Lampeter. Uh, we found this nice apartment in Bird-in-Hand and uh, Kiki and Yas went through the door of Mrs. Weaver' ; s. Knocked on the door and she had a lovely apartment in this big house. Um, uh, the living room and kitchen and then two bedrooms upstairs. And this was a huge house. They only had three kids, but a big house. You know, [inaudible] I can' ; t remember that. They had two sets of stairs and a third one somewhere. Anyway, um, so Uncle Yas and Kiki went to the door and knocked on the door and. And uh, I guess there was an ad in the paper for an apartment and uh, Mrs. Weaver said to her husband, " ; Well, they' ; re very nice people there. They seem, they speak English, they say they' ; re Japanese, but they' ; re very nice people" ; and her husband said, " ; Well, if you think they' ; re, okay, yes, you know, rent to them." ; So they rented this nice place. Uh, we had the first two bedrooms and the whole front staircase and then this kitchen, this house was humongous. Have ever seen their place? You have. 4th Interviewer:Did he say what he did? 2nd Interviewer:Flowers a nursery. CO:Yeah. Huge house. 2nd Interviewer:A lot of land. AT:How long were you there? CO:I went to high school there, one, one year and then I was there for a little bit more. And then I went to college, up north and then my aunt got married, my uncle went to the Army. And you know, we gave up that place, but it was very pleasant. We, we stayed there. We were like family. In fact, um, some of those people, and I are friends to this day. How many years is it? 3rd Interviewer:Isn' ; t that the chicken place? CO:Pardon? Patricia? 3rd Interviewer:Isn' ; t that the chicken sex? 2nd Interviewer:Yeah, uncle and auntie did chicken sex. CO:Oh yeah, Uncle Yas, that was a new new thing that the Japanese had just, it isn' ; t invented. They had learned to. Well, they could, they could tell the sex of, of the chicken by looking at the on their behind and the Japanese 3rd Interviewer:Perfected the art. CO:Uh, well, a relative of Uncle Yas of the Kinoshita family started doing this in Pennsylvania. And uh, we learned a bit, knew of it. And so they said, well, he ought to come out there and learn this thing and, and then he could be a help because they didn' ; t speak very good English and Uncle Yas was, you know, so they were of help to each other. The Mita Company started and Uncle Yas was there and he learned to do this thing and he made money. He paid you by each, each. New Speaker:Each chicken, New Speaker:chicken to each little chick was a. New Speaker:Was that a Japanese thing? New Speaker:It' ; s a Japanese invention. 3rd Interviewer:Do they do that in Japan? CO:They did it and I guess in Japan and it was Baayan' ; s family that New Speaker:Brought it over. CO:Clever. These Japanese. 3rd Interviewer:That' ; s cool. CO:What? 3rd Interviewer:That' ; s cool. CO:Yeah. It was very cool. And uh, the poultry, all the Eastern seaboard had all the Japanese. Uh, and then they had a school, Mr. Mita had a school and taught all these Nisei men how to do this thing. AT:And um, so you were in Pennsylvania for about a year and then before going to college? CO:Yeah, I was there for the last year of high school. Then I went out north to New York state for college. AT:Where did you go to school? CO:Houghton College? Um, and Houghton, New York, near Buffalo. Near Cornell, not Buffalo. It' ; s halfway between Buffalo and uh, Cornell. AT:And so you would' ; ve been in college while the war was still going on, is that right? CO:Yeah. AT:Um, I, how was that being in college in New York, you know, as. CO:I was a curiosity, yeah. Um I wrote a column in the newspaper and one of them was about the evacuation and all, and one of the Boston newspapers carried that story. Someone cut it out and sent it to me and they sent a reporter down to talk to me. Yeah. Boston Globe. AT:So did people, um, out upstate, did they know about what happened to the Japanese on the West Coast? CO:Not really, no. AT:Did you have to do a lot of explaining? CO:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to me I was going around in Pennsylvania talking about, um, what was happening. The churches were especially interested, you know. AT:How did people respond or react? CO:Uh, surprised and uh, ummm. Um can' ; t remember that, you know, it was so different from any other, um, response. And people are always surprised that there were so many, you know, Japanese. This Is the first one they' ; d ever seen. And don' ; t tell me there' ; s a whole, you know, a band of band of Japanese. Yeah. AT:And. CO:Yeah. AT:At what point did you come to Chicago? Was that after college? CO:Yeah. And then my folks, um, after the war came here and then after a few years they went back to Los Angeles. Uh, my, my folks and my grandmother, they all went back, and my sister was here, but she went back and my brother went to college, he went to Houghton with me and then he finished. Um, let' ; s see, went a year to, um, oh, he got a Sociology degree here at the University of Chicago. Um, and then he went back to California and he taught, uh, Sociology until he retired recently. AT:What did you study at Houghton? CO:Psych and Soc. AT:And, um, so was it your, your parents, they came to Chicago? Um, what brought them to Chicago? CO:Well, I think, um, there were only a few places they could leave uh from camp. They wanted them to go to, um, some of the larger, um, cities out here. A lot of Japanese went to Cleveland too I know. And not as many to New York, I guess that was a bit too far. And a lot of Japanese came to Chicago. And I worked at the Japanese Resettlers for about a year. Uh, there was Mr. Yasutake and uh, Hagiwara, Abe Hagiwara worked there. Um And I was there for a little bit. AT:What did your parents do? Or your? CO:Oh, my father. Oh, my father built a ship in the basement of a, of the place they were renting. And then they took that boat up to my husband and his friend took that boat up to Grayslake. They left it on the, on the, it' ; s not a beach is it? Um, and someone stole it. We never told my father. 2nd Interviewer:But what motivated, um, the people who went away from the West Coast? Were they bitter? CO:No, they couldn' ; t go back for awhile, you couldn' ; t go back to California. 3rd Interviewer:She said they had to leave. 2nd Interviewer:But some people did come, go back. I mean, didn' ; t they? AT:That was after the war. CO:Yeah, after awhile. 3rd Interviewer:So what they do? What did they do in Chicago? CO:They got jobs, you know. I worked at Resettlers. Helped get jobs at Curtiss Candy. There were a number of places that hired a bunch of able-bodied Japanese. They liked Japanese workers. Good workers. AT:And so when you came to meet your family here, where were you staying? What neighborhood or? CO:Oh, where was I? I was and did they come first? Let' ; s see. Um they had yeah, they had very good friends. My mother' ; s very good friend. They used to come and visit us on Terminal Island. So they' ; re very old friends. Um, they settled in Chicago before my folks came and they had a place on the West Side and it was a three flat. So my folks rented a flat, then they didn' ; t stay there too long. Um, then my folks went back to California and my, uh, father, well I think he was itching to build his own place. So he went, they went back and uh, uh, he was going to build his home. What did he do though? He built, um, a tea room or something, didn' ; t he? 3rd Interviewer:In Chicago? CO:No, in Cali, in L.A. 3rd Interviewer:Did you live with them here? CO:Pardon? 3rd Interviewer:Did you live with them here in Chicago when you all met up? CO:I was here with them for only a short time and then they left. Uh, and then I got married. Um, and, and Michi was already married to also, she had. 2nd Interviewer:Mark. CO:Mark [Opolo?] already 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. CO:Yeah. 3rd Interviewer:Where did she meet him? 2nd Interviewer:Where did who meet who? 3rd Interviewer:Where did Michi meet her husband? 2nd Interviewer:Well, probably here. 3rd Interviewer:Where did Auntie Michi meet? 2nd Interviewer:Met Frank, here? CO:Yeah, here in Chicago, yeah. 2nd Interviewer:And then they went back to California. CO:And that' ; s a big family. AT:And um, how did you find the job at Resettlers Committee? CO:Um, how did I find the job? Let' ; s see. I was doing volunteer work for them too, I think. AT:What kind of work or position did you have? CO:Um, let me think. I worked for a group of doctors for a little bit and did bookkeeping for them, uh, on Michigan Avenue. And um, it wasn' ; t too long. And then I found out that Resettlers and that was the new place was looking for some people. And that was good fun. Um, we made our own meals, lunches at Resettlers. And there was a young woman, Eileen Nagatomo, who had never lived with Japanese. She was from either North or South Dakota. Uh, and she was so interesting that we all were there are at Resettlers and, uh, we made, uh, lunches. She was so much fun. AT:And how would you describe the, the Japanese American community back then, say in the days that you were working at Resettlers? CO:Well, people would, you know, had just come in or they would, this was early when people had just left camp or they were looking for lodging. And, um, as soon as, uh, the larger community knew about uh the Resettlers Committee, they would call us, um, uh, to report that they had jobs for, uh, and they, they liked Japanese American secretaries and, um, Curtiss Candy. I don' ; t know what those folks really did, but it was piece work. And the Japanese were clean and smart and you know, 3rd Interviewer:But maybe spies. CO:Yeah. And, uh, so, you know, they would call in and say they would have, they would have a position for 10 young Japanese American men from ages so and so and here' ; s the, yeah. It was very interesting. Yeah. And it got bigger and bigger as you know, they had the, Japanese had good, they had a good reputation. Um, and some of these large companies, this Curtiss Candy, I remember them well would, uh, call in and ask for number and then, um, the people who used to print the, um, umm, the yellow pages, you know, and they would want proofreaders and such. 2nd Interviewer:Yeah. CO:The yellow pages. Donnelley and Company. Yeah. AT:We can be wrapping up soon, but just a few questions before we finish up. Um, one thing I wanted to ask is, um, so I know you mentioned you met your husband in Chicago. CO:Yes. AT:And um. CO:In church, yeah. AT:Which, which church was that? Where were you going at the time? CO:That' ; s a Methodist church. It' ; s a friend, one of my early, the childhood friend who wanted to start a choir at that church. And I was attending the Baptist Church on the South Side, um, at the University of Chicago. Uh, Jitsuo Morikawa uh, who was at the, the church down there. Uh, he was an excellent speaker and he came to Chicago. And they had a readymade a job for him. So, uh, and we, we learned that he was down at the University of Chicago, so some of us went down there. Uh, it was, uh, you know, it was at the Rockefeller Chapel. Fantastic, you know. AT:And, um, where was the Methodist Church? CO:This was a small group of Japanese Americans who started it, uh, with a minister. I' ; ve forgotten who the first minister was. Um, and they had a little choir and, uh, uh, a small congregation and it got larger. 3rd Interviewer:Ravenswood. CO:Yeah. AT:And so what inspired you to stay in Chicago? CO:Uh, well, my folks were here and then, um, got married. Uh, my husband was teaching at Loyola, the medical school, and then he was teaching at the University of Illinois, the medical school. Uh, he had a chance to go elsewhere, but I guess we never thought of moving. Well, we liked Wilmette. We liked the school system. AT:And at what point did you move out of the city to Wilmette? CO:Um, Teresa was just a toddler. 2nd Interviewer:As soon as my brother was born. You guys wanted, they wanted us to go to New Trier and I was so mad. CO:Go to a good high school. 2nd Interviewer:And there were not very many Asians in Winnetka. CO:No, no, no one at all. 2nd Interviewer:Well, the [Yakis?]. CO:Well, yeah, about the same time. 3rd Interviewer:So you' ; re moved to Wilmette in 1956 or 57. CO:Yeah. But there were those um, fine people who went around the block. 2nd Interviewer:And warned CO:Warned them that we were coming. And that we were, we were good, uh, good Americans. 3rd Interviewer:Who did that? CO:Never fear. 3rd Interviewer:Who did that? CO:The Cleveland' ; s, 3rd Interviewer:They told people not to worry? 2nd Interviewer:Yeah because this is a long time. This was before any civil rights thing. New Speaker:And then our house on Lake Avenue, the people who owned that house wanted to sell it to a Black family. No Black families came and so they had to take us and they said, I guess you' ; ll have to do. Yeah. AT:Well, we can be wrapping up, but before we do, is there anything else you guys want to ask or. 3rd Interviewer:I wanted to ask about more, a little, just one question about, um, Pennsylvania. Like those people, it sounded like you said they didn' ; t, they weren' ; t super familiar with what was going on in California. CO:No, yeah. 3rd Interviewer:And they also weren' ; t very familiar with seeing Japanese people or Japanese American people. CO:Never. 3rd Interviewer:But so, they, were they not discriminatory or like, CO:Well, they were one, Christians, a special brand of Christians, you know. They were Mennonites. Uh, they wore, you know, the long clothing, that was Patricia' ; s mother, 3rd Interviewer:All of the people in that area? CO:Patricia' ; s family was interesting. They were billionaires. They were the Reese Padlock Company. And I got a job with them one summer after I graduated from high school before I went to college. And, um, Mrs. Reese of Reese Padlocks was Patricia' ; s mother. Patricia mother was, um, uh, a, a rich American until she became, she became a reformed Mennonite and started wearing the clothes that they wore in Pennsylvania, you know. Um, and they wear a bonnet. They call it, plain people they call them. 3rd Interviewer:Uh, so those people are really respectful and not like racist towards you? CO:No, not at all. And of course, because she' ; s a Christian, but because first she was this rich, um, rich American, uh, well she went to college but almost barely. Um, she met her husband there. Lovely people. But um, yeah, they were, they were not, um, Pennsylvania Dutch, they were not Pennsylvania farm people. Yeah. So when we appeared at their doorstep, um, I think she was interested. She was curious. 2nd Interviewer:She said you were dark though. CO:What did she say? 2nd Interviewer:She said you looked dark. CO:Yes, that' ; s right. 2nd Interviewer:But nice. CO:And they speak English. You know, Uncle Yas was very uh, he was formidable. AT:Well, and before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or any final thoughts? CO:Well, I' ; m glad you' ; re doing this. I think it' ; s uh, um, yeah, it would be of interest. Um, you know, for those who come after us. And, um, why we came to these parts in the first place, because this was not a port of entry, you know. Whereas the Japanese and Chinese set foot on the West Coast many, many years ago, hundreds of years ago, it would seem now. Yeah. So every time we do go to a new place, um, we' ; re, you know, we bought a place in Michigan last year and, uh, we find it very interesting and the people are very welcoming, uh, and they' ; re full of curiosity. And I spoke to a group last year and now they want me to speak in the next town, this June. Because the country is made of so many, so many interesting, diverse peoples. I think it behooves us to speak up, you know, and educate folk. Yeah. AT:And if you could leave some kind of, um, message or, or legacy with your children, your grandchildren, what' ; s something that you would like them to know or? CO:Hmm. Well, they seem to know more, uh, more than I do about what' ; s going on in the world, um, before and after. But, uh, Christopher heard me speak when he was a little boy, uh, second grade or third grade, I think. 2nd Interviewer:Well, you' ; re still doing it. I mean you know, the children at Evanston high school were very um interested in hearing your story. CO:Yeah, were still interested. Well, of course our textbooks had a, the good chapters on, uh, on the evacuation and, and what do the children think about that? Um, many good questions. You know, at the end of the chapter. AT:Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and us, and CO:You' ; re welcome. AT:Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://www.saitolincoln.com/ohms-viewer-3.8.6/render.php?cachefile=OmachiChiyoko20180320.xml OmachiChiyoko20180320.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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Omachi, Chiyoko (3/20/2018)
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Chiyoko describes her experiences growing up on Terminal Island. She talks about moving to L.A. right before the Evacuation and her experiences at the school there. Chiyoko describes what camp life and food was like. She discusses leaving the Poston to go to school and work inland. She talks about a Mennonite family she has fond memories of. Chiyoko explains why she resettled in the Midwest and why she joined the Resettlers Committee and the importance of supporting other Japanese Americans. She is glad that the JASC is doing the oral history project and hopes her story and other stories will be helpful for future generations.
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945
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2018-03-20
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video
Series: Untold Stories
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
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Nakamura, Tom Kazumi
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Amache
Navy
LaSalle Photo
Yuba City
Chicago Resettlers Committee
Moody Bible Church
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/16/2021 Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021) 1:20:57 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949 Nisei Amache Navy LaSalle Photo Yuba City Chicago Resettlers Committee Moody Bible Church Nakamura, Tom Kazumi Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|19(12)|26(11)|34(8)|43(7)|50(12)|59(12)|68(13)|78(3)|86(14)|96(8)|106(8)|114(16)|123(7)|133(16)|143(7)|153(9)|163(4)|173(10)|184(3)|194(9)|203(5)|212(1)|230(11)|241(9)|262(6)|270(3)|280(10)|303(7)|313(13)|324(11)|338(6)|348(4)|355(15)|365(4)|377(6)|386(12)|396(9)|405(10)|415(15)|428(3)|437(9)|447(11)|464(3)|474(1)|483(15)|494(7)|507(12)|515(14)|525(2)|532(2)|542(4)|549(12)|558(8)|574(2)|585(1)|599(3)|608(11)|623(5)|631(4)|638(2)|645(4)|658(1)|666(13)|675(7)|686(2)|694(5)|704(6)|717(12)|730(11)|741(8)|753(14)|764(16)|776(13)|786(10)|796(1)|808(6)|818(5)|826(2)|833(14)|850(5) 0 https://vimeo.com/553146996/e8e8f217b6 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553146996" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Tom Kazumi Nakamura was born in Marysville, California in 1928. Growing up on a peach farm, Tom attended a small school in rural northern California along with his siblings. At the age of 14, Tom and his family were forced to sell their possessions and take only what they could carry as they were sent to “camp” by the US Government, via Executive Order 9066. After being taken to the Merced assembly center, Tom and his family were incarcerated in Amache. After the war, Tom enlisted in the Navy, training in naval photography. This translated to his work later on, as after discharge he moved back to California, and planned to make his way to New York to attend photography school paid by the GI bill, taking small jobs along the way. Instead, he met an old friend from camp in Chicago, William Yamamoto, and the two of them took LaSalle Photo, a small photo developing shop, and grew it into a company that at its peak employed hundreds of nisei and other individuals in the Chicagoland area. Tom shares memories of meeting his wife, Patsy, and their first date, as well as stories of his family, and his relationship with religion. One of his grandchildren, Cori Lin, joins him in this interview. Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): So today is March 16th, 2021, and this oral history interview is being recorded remotely due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln of the JASC Legacy Center, and the interviewee is Tom Kazumi Nakamura. Also participating in the interview is Tom' ; s granddaughter, Cori Lin. This interview is being recorded by the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Shall we begin? Tom Kazumi Nakamura (TN): Let' ; s begin. EL: So Tom we' ; re going to start with some basic biographical details just for context, okay? TN: Alright. EL: And if you wouldn' ; t mind stating your full name please, that' ; s a good place to start. TN: My name is Tom Kazumi Nakamura, I was born on August 25th, 1928, makes me about 92 years old and climbing. And I was born in a hospital in Marysville, California and because that was in the, in the 20s, that was at end of the depression, and they only had one major hospital. But the rest of my life, I was born--raised in the next town called Yuba City, California which was a farming community, mostly fruits and a few truck farming, but mostly fruit farming. Peaches, prunes, pears, apples, and etcetera. And I was raised on a peach farm, and this goes back to a town near Yuba City called Tudor, California. A little town with a, maybe a mercantile store, and a barber shop, and a few others. I remember a shoe, shoe repair shop but it was one of those stops as you go along Hwy 20 going towards Sacramento. And well I--I can' ; t remember, probably from about 6, 7 years old I was mainly speaking Japanese, I didn' ; t know too much English except for speaking to my brothers and sisters, they spoke English, but I spoke mainly to my mother and my father. So I was speaking, I was raised speaking Japanese. And then when I went to elementary school, then of course I was kind of forced to speak English so, so English became my primary language, but I still, when I speak to my parents or their friends I still spoke Japanese. And I went to a school called Wilson Elementary School. It was a little country, country school. They had two big rooms, one room contained kindergarten to 4th grade and then the other one from 5th grade to 8th grade. So, so I don' ; t know how they did it but we had one teacher in one one class and another teacher in another class and they, they taught four grades each. And this, this is a kind of a country school, so I can' ; t remember whether we were, while the other classes were being taught, I don' ; t know what we did, maybe we threw paper clips or rubber bands at each other but I can' ; t remember. [laughs] But it was a little small country school, and each class had maybe about 10 or 12 students. And after Wilson Elementary School, well I was in the 7th grade and, and that year there was a, a great flood. Well we lived along what they call the Feather River which came down from the Sierra Nevadas. And each year, in the old days, they had these Chinese laborers build up these levees on both side of the river so it won' ; t flood. And each year this, when the spring, in the spring, when the, the snow started melting in the Sierra Nevadas, this huge amount of water would come down the Feather River and the, and this one particular year I think it was 1940--thir--1938, 39, or 40 I can' ; t remember but the levee started to to overflow. So they called every able-bodied person to come and try to fight the, the river, levee, for the river from overflowing. And then my, my older brother, my father, my older brother Jimmy, and my older brother Joe they, they all got into a truck with a shovel and they started going up to the levee, fill it up with, filling the levee with sandbags and they' ; re, they' ; re, I can' ; t remember how many people went there, but after awhile they came back and says " ; We can' ; t hold the levee back the water is overflowing" ; . So we all got onto this truck, and we move--moved to near Yuba City. We had a friend in Yuba City and we had all moved to their place, and after the floods we went back there, and we went to see the levee, and the levee was, I would say maybe about four footbi-football field wide and it just flooded the, the whole area there. Fortunately, because a lot of time they do it intentionally because if the country wasn' ; t flooded that city of Yuba City and Marysville will be flooded so a lot of times they intentionally cut the levee to flood the, the orchards. So, but this one here I don' ; t think it was done intentionally but, but uh, the, the floods just, after the flood receded, we got back on the truck and we took a tour about, around the area where we lived. And I remember, the first thing I remember was, somebody' ; s outdoor toilet was in our yard. [laughs] It just, the-the flood just brought the toilet into our yard. I don' ; t know what happened to our-our toilet because you know everybody had outdoor toilets. And the thing I remember when we were driving along, and we saw this railroad. The flood just twisted the railroads, we were looking down the, the railroad line, it' ; s just like a curve. And along the railroad track there were cows, and they were just bloated up, I just remember that because I was still about 12, 13 years old at that time. So after, after the flood, my brother found another place near Tudor, and we started going to another school called Central Gaither Elementary School and, and we were attending, I was in 8th grade at that time. And we were in this, it was Sunday, December 7th, we were in this Japanese school because my parents wanted us to learn Japanese, so they had this little country Japanese school, and we were attending the Japanese school, and our teacher' ; s name was Mr. Gouda. And he was a Japanese teacher also in the town of Marysville, but every Sunday he would, he would go out to the country, and teach some of the country people Japanese. So, I remember I was in the third grade, I was just learning some kanji, and I was learning this fude, how to write Japanese words with this Japanese brush. And it was in the eighth grade, we were just studying the constitution, in order to graduate 8th grade we had to memorize the constitution of the United States. And this is the irony of it, when we were studying the constitution we were looking out this classroom window, and we see this military people with Jeeps. And they got out and they' ; re on the telephone pole outside they' ; re tacking this thing on the telephone pole and we were just wondered why they were doing that. So at recess time we all ran outside and we were looking at this sign that says uh it was Executive Order 66, 90 I think it was signed by President Franklin Roosevelt. And it says, " ; All people of Japanese and Japanese descent we have to evacuate this area" ; . So, so when the principal read this notice, they ran out too, and says, " ; Okay all of you, pe--Japanese peo--children go home. You know, so after they posted that, we left school, we went home and by that time my brother--my brothers and my sister they read the sign and they says, " ; Well we have to get ready to evacuate" ; because they only give us, abou--I think it was about 10 days or so. And they says, " ; Just bring anything that you can carry' ; ' ; , and here I was looking around, I says, " ; Anything I can carry" ; . I had a lot of toys and things like that, I didn' ; t know which one to bring. And uh, and my father says, " ; Well don' ; t worry it' ; s not gonna last too long, so we' ; ll be back" ; . So I says, " ; Oh, okay" ; . So I went under the--this house that we were renting, and I hid all of my toys underneath the, the house. And thinking that we will go back, the-the most precious thing that I got was a microscope. It was one of those toy microscopes, it was about 3X magnification, and that was one of the precious things that I had, these little box games that I hid under the crawl space there, thinking that we' ; ll be back, but I don' ; t know what ever happened to it. But, but it was one of those things that we had to, we had to decide what to carry, so everybody was busy. And my brothers were busy trying to get rid of the refrigerator and the household things. And people would-would come around and saying, " ; I' ; ll give you 50 cents for that, I' ; ll give you a dollar for that." ; And the refrigerator, somebody says, " ; I' ; ll give you 50 cents" ; , and somebody else says, " ; I' ; ll give you a dollar" ; so my brother says, " ; Take it." ; So the refrigerator sold for a dollar. And one thing I remember was our car. We saved up, I don' ; t know how many years, we saved up to buy a car. So finally it was a 19, 1938 Ford and we paid $785. I remember that we had all this cash accumulated we didn' ; t--at that time my father didn' ; t believe in banks, so we just had it hidden away. So he gave it to my brother and my brother went to Yuba Cit--to Marysville to this car dealer and bought this car. And we were all so proud of it, and it was, it was color was black and that' ; s what Henry Ford says you could order any color, but you' ; re gonna get a black car. So all the Ford cars in those days were black. So when-when my brother brought that thing back, he was the only one that had a driver' ; s license. But we all got into the car, we was just driving around the country and I says, I still remember I says, " ; Oh, no more walking, no more bicycling" ; you know? We could ride in this car, because we always have to get a ride to go into town. And some people would say " ; I' ; m going to town, do you want to go?" ; So said " ; Okay" ; so they would come and pick us up and bring us to town but now with our own car we was just going to town whenever we wanted to. So it was, it was something that we were so proud of because everybody was chipping in into the family fund to buy this car. Well by the time evacuation come this car was only about 2 years old. And this, one guy came and says, " ; I' ; ll g--" ; we-we never got any offers on the car everything else everybody was picking up we just giving things away actually towards the end. And this one guy came and says, " ; Hey I hear y-you have a car that you want to sell." ; We says, " ; Yeah we paid 700-something a couple of years ago" ; . He says, " ; Well I' ; ll give you $100." ; So he had $100 cash, so my brother says " ; Well we can' ; t help it." ; You know, my-we w-the Japanese we would use the word shikata ga nai I, I don' ; t know if you under-you know what that is. But this is, this is the attitude that we had, we, you know had no other choice shikata ga nai. So I remember my mother telling me this story about the willow tree, it' ; s a Japanese story it says " ; You have to be a willow tree, if you, if you be a willow tree, the wind comes and blows but the willow just gives way to the, to the wind, and it won' ; t break. If you try to be a strong, stout tree the wind' ; s gonna come and break your branches." ; So, so that story and the shikata ga nai that' ; s, that' ; s what we felt from the time that this evacuation started. And something that we couldn' ; t do anything about it' ; s something that they posted up, we didn' ; t know anything about. But, well that time we were studying the constitution but, but all that just went out the window, it didn' ; t mean that much. Because you know later on I find out that every American citizen is, is entitled to a fair trial. And of course we didn' ; t know anything about that, the constitution. You know when you' ; re about 13 years old it doesn' ; t mean too much. But of course there are, a lot of the older niseis that understood this, so there was a guy named Fred Korematsu, you' ; ve probably heard of him, and there' ; s some other guys that, well, understood what the constitution of the United States was. So of course they, they fought for all of the Japanese Americans but after that we were, after we got through the-they came by. I think it was a Greyhound bus or some kind of a bus, that we all got on to. We just carried one suitcase, my, my dad was carrying two suitcases, my, my brothers were-were all carrying whatever they could hand-handle and they were throwing it on top of the bus. And it took us to this Marysville train station, and this Marysville train station, oh we a--we all got together we saw a lot of our friends all together. So we weren' ; t aware of what' ; s happening, but we just greeted each other and says " ; Well I don' ; t know where this train is going to go" ; and nobody knew where it was going to go. And my brothers were helping with the other people loading all of their luggage, well they had to put ID' ; s on their bags, and they had these little cardboard tags that' ; s, with a string around it. You write your name on there, and then you just put it on the tag, they would just throw the whole thing into the train. And once the train was loaded down they, they said " ; Everybody to, get into the train." ; So we all got into the train. I still remember the train had these chairs that flip-flop, if the train is going one way you' ; d flop the ch-chair and you' ; d be heading the same way with the train. And to my brother and I it was kind of a thrilling experience because this was our first train ride, you know, we never rode a train before. So it was kind of exciting. And as soon as we started moving, the soldiers I didn' ; t know they' ; re military or police, all I knew were that there were soldiers. They came through the train and told us, " ; Pull the blinds down." ; So we all pulled the blinds down. So after that we didn' ; t know where we were going we were-we couldn' ; t look out the window but-[coughs] Excuse me. Several hours later, they told us to open the blinds because the train stopped, and we looked out the window and they had these military convoy trucks and some buses. And we were all told to get out and get onto the trus-truck or the bus, so we got onto the, the, you know older people, they got on to the bus because they couldn' ; t get on to the top, top of the truck. So, but my brothers and I, we jumped on to the back of the truck and then we were taken to this Merced assembly center. We didn' ; t know where we were because when we opened up the shade we saw a lot of people out there and we didn' ; t know what was going on and we didn' ; t even know we were going to this camp because nobody, nobody knew about this assembly center. And I don' ; t know how they built assembly centers so fast because from December 7th you know, must have took ' ; em a couple of months and they had all this built up already. And also, not, this is what they called the Merced assembly center, and of course, after they assembled everybody, give ' ; em, gave ' ; em time to build these relocation centers in the different states, you know? You know, Tule Lake and Idaho, Arizona, Poston, and all those areas. But when we went to the Merced assembly center, the families just got together, and we had all of our nimotsu or baggage together, and then they would, they would come along and says, okay, they would give us a--this uh, I forgot what it was but it was like a sheet of paper. And this says okay, this is, this is your home so you--this is your apartment. And I just remember on the paper had D-311 so, so later on we all--my brother' ; s holding onto the paper, and they--and then--he' ; s--they' ; re giving us a description of what the assem--relocation center was like. Says, each one of these, the D represents a block and 3 represents the barrack, and the 11 represents the apartment, or the apartment that you' ; re going to be in, in that barracks. So we all started looking for their, our blocks. And fortunately, ours was one of the first blocks, it was D block. So we were out there, and my brother and I we were going up and down the block, looking for barrack three. And uh, finally found it, and my brothers were waving to--my brother says, " ; Over here, over here!" ; So they co--so they says " ; Come back and get th--the baggage!" ; So we, Larry and I ran back and got the baggage and we went into this room, I guess it was uh, about a little smaller than our living room which is about 25x25. And they had these Army cots, you know the kind that you fold with the canvas top. And then they had these mattresses that you put on top, and they had this GI blanket. So, so we mo--brought all of our baggage in there, and uh, we made an arrangement, of how we should have the cots, and we lined up all the cots on one side-- Cori Lin (CL): Grandpa. TN: Yes. CL: How old are all your siblings at this point? TN: Well, I was 13 years old. CL: How old were your--what are the names of your siblings and then how old are they? TN: Well, okay, Jimmy my oldest, he was born in 1922, so I don' ; t know how he was, but my, my sister was the oldest she was born in 1920 so my sister Mary and then comes my brother-- CL: What are their Japanese names too? TN: Oh, Mary Kimie, Kimie, and Jimmy, James Misao and my brother Joe, he didn' ; t have a Japanese name, everybody call him Jyo, Jyo in Japanese. [laughs] And then I came, the third son, and then my youngest was Larry Lawrence Tomomi Nakamura. So there were four of us, plus my sister, my mother and father. So we moved into this little apartment and we tried to settle in as much as we can. My mother, fortunately she brought some sheets, there was a whole bag, you know she just wrapped a whole blanket o' ; bags in the sheet and tied it like uh, you know, the Japanese do, and then you know, was carrying it over shoulder like that but um-- EL: Do you remember what the families did who didn' ; t bring their own sheets? TN: I do not know, but I think what they did was they just slept on the mattress and put the blanket over them. And uh-- EL: And you mentioned feeling a little bit excited, about riding on the train for the first time? TN: Oh, yes that was, well you know when you' ; re 13 years old and you never, never rode on a train before-- [smiles] EL: Right-- TN: It was, it was real exciting. So-- EL: Do you remember some of the other feelings that were running through you at that time, or maybe the expressions on your parents' ; faces? TN: Well they--they were concerned, especially my mother my, my father, he depended upon my mother a lot because he didn' ; t know how to read or write Japanese or English so he depended upon her a lot. And my mother, I have to give her a lot of credit, she was very intuitive and she had a lot of foresight so, and she was kind of a realistic person so she was really concerned for us. And of course my sister Mary, she was and she graduated high sc--I think in 1942. I think she graduated high school at that time, yeah. So she was, she was doing a lot of things taking care of the family, and my brother Jimmy too he was two years younger than my sister. And my brother Joe he was in high school at that time, and he was a very athletic person. And everybody knew him in camp because he was such a good baseball player, and they call ' ; em Lefty Yuba Joe, ' ; cause he was from Yuba City. [laughs] But uh, he and my, my sister my two brothers and my sister they took--took care of mostly everything, so my brother Larry and I we were, we were pretty, felt pretty comfortable, felt pretty safe. EL: Mhmm. TN: You know, when you have all those other older people taking care of you, you feel a little comfortable and we kinda enjoyed ourselves. But, I' ; d like to take a few minute break. EL: Of course. TN: And I' ; ll be right back. -- EL: Okay, we are recording again. CL: Mhmm. EL: So Tom, I think being mi-- CL: Oh, Emma you just mu-- EL: Yeah, being mindful of the time that' ; s available to us, I think if we can move quickly through some of the, the facts of where your family was during the war. It' ; s my understanding that you have given your family the great gift of , of writing down a lot of these details. So if we can shift a little bit through the war and use most of our time today to talk about after the war and especially your time in Chicago, I think that' ; s where we' ; ll head. So we--we were in Merced, so-called assembly center and then from there your family moved on to which camp? TN: Okay I' ; ll--I was thinking the same thing because all of these camp lifes are so recorded that practically everybody, you know, wanted to know they could just go back to a, a history book to understand that. So, what I' ; d like to do is after Merced assembly center we were, we were transferred to Amache relocation camp. It was called Granada, Colorado in Granada, Colorado. And of course the, the camp was named after a, Indian Princess I think Amache. And we, we spent my high school, high school days there. And after the camp closed, we moved to Denver, Colorado. And we stayed in, in Denver, Colorado for a few years, and uh-- EL: When you, when you left camp to go to Colorado, did you already know somebody who was there? Did you have a place to go to? TN: Yes, fortunately my brother, Jim, left camp early and he got a job in Denver as a chef in a restaurant. And he saved enough money to put a down payment on the house for us. So by the time we left camp we had a house in Denver where my mother and my father and the rest of us was able to move to, a place to move to. So we were fortunate in that, and of course my father had a stroke in camp so when the camp closed, the Army furnished an ambulance, and they asked me to stay with my father in the ambulance. So from Amache we drove all the way up to Denver in this Army ambulance, and we established a life there in Denver for a few years. [coughs] Excuse me. EL: And then after those few years in Denver, what came next? TN: Well after a few years, well I st--I only stayed there for about year and a half and I got a V-mail from my brother, and he says " ; Tom, you know you' ; re 17 years old 17 and a half, you' ; re going to be drafted pretty soon, so says I think the services will accept Japanese Americans now so why don' ; t you try to volunteer to any of the services except the Army." ; He says, " ; Army is--" ; , I--I don' ; t want to use the word but there' ; s a description [laughs] of, of what the Army was. EL: And his opinion was based on? TN: Well he was in the 442nd and, you know, he, he fought from, well he started in North Africa through a--through Italy, and Germany so he went through a lot of bad things. So, yeah, so he says " ; Just try to avoid the Army." ; So I went to the Navy recruiting people in Denver, and I says, " ; You know I' ; m Japanese American, do you take Japanese American in the Navy?" ; This guy looks at me, he says " ; Sure" ; , so I says, " ; Okay, I' ; m gonna volunteer for the Navy." ; So he signed me up, and before you know it I was on my way to San Diego Naval Training Center, and from there I was transferred to Pensacola to take training as an aviation photographer. So I graduated Pensacola, and then I went--they transferred me to this aircraft carrier, the Franklin D. Roosevelt and I--I tra--I--the--the Roosevelt aircraft carrier was in, in the dry docks, so they transferred me to the Norfolk Naval Air, Air Base and I stayed there until the end of my duty. And then I came back to, to Yuba City, worked around for a while, and then decided to go to this New York Institute of Photography. And so I started getting jobs here and there, just enough money to move to the next town and my next--the first, first town was in Provo, Utah I got a job as a far--as a truck farming, helping a truck farm. So I stayed there for about a month and a half, got enough money to go to Denver, and then I got a job in Denver at a pharmaceutical distribution center called McKesson & ; Robbins, I don' ; t know if they' ; re still in business. But I saved up enough money to go to Chicago and I figured well I' ; ll get a job in Chicago and continue on to New York. Well it so happened that Chicago is November 2nd, 1948 President Truman was elected president at that time. That' ; s when the Chicago Tribune says " ; Dewey Elected President!" ; , and then they retracted their right away and says, " ; Our mistake, Truman!" ; [laughs] So it was kind of a memorable day that I arrived in Chicago. And I stayed at the YMCA for awhile until my funds ran out, ' ; cause I was looking for a job, I couldn' ; t find any job at that time. EL: Did you know anybody in Chicago? TN: Well I--I didn' ; t I, I knew, later on, I knew there were quite a few people, but at that time I wasn' ; t intending to stay that long, so I, I didn' ; t look up any friends or anything. So I walked the streets for awhile, and found out that Japantown was on the Near North Side, so from the Loop to Division St. In the meantime, I move all my things from the YMCA, I moved it to this National Trailway bus station. I put all my things in the locker, and that was my, I think my last dime I put in there, and I, I couldn' ; t take it out because I didn' ; t have any money to put, put the things back in. So I was walking the streets, and somebody told me he says " ; Well why don' ; t you go Clark and Division, that' ; s where lot of the Japanese resettled." ; So I said, " ; Well, where' ; s Division Street?" ; he says " ; Well you just keep walking north." ; I just, I was happened to be on Clark Street. And so I kept walking, and I, I remember how cold it was because it was in November it' ; s cold and I just had this reversible coat, what they call the Melton on one side and gabardine on the inside. And that was warm enough for California but not Chicago. I didn' ; t realize how cold Chicago could get in November. So what I did was, I remember there were two newspapers at that time, the Chicago Sun Times and the Chicago Tribune. Well the Chicago Sun Times was a smaller paper, and it fit under my coat so I stuffed myself with the Chicago Sun Times newspaper about three thickness. And I' ; ll b--be walking along crinkling with the newspaper, [laughs] but it kept me warm. And so I finally reached Division Street and I see a lot of these Japanese stores, and first store I remember was Toguri Mercantile store which is near Clark and Division. And, and on one--one side on the corner was a hotel called Mark Twain, I don' ; t know if it' ; s still there, and then on the, the other corner was a drug store called Dressler Drugs. And, and right by, by Elm Street near Toguri, there was a pool hall called Zipp' ; s pool hall. So they said " ; Oh, a lot of the niseis on weekend they come and play pool over there." ; So I went in there, and I was just sitting around watching people play pool, and at that time I was smoking a lot and I didn' ; t have any money for smokes so, so people' ; d lay their cigarette butts along the, thing and I just pick it up take a puff. [laughs] And then I said to myself, well that' ; s--that word about " ; Beggars cannot be choosy?" ; [laughs] But uh, it was, it was a pretty couple of hard weeks because uh--then finally at, this is a Saturday night, I went there to the Zips Pool Hall and I ran into couple of guys I didn' ; t know, but they, they I introduced myself to them and I was telling ' ; em that, my story. He says, " ; Oh come on over there, come on, come with us." ; And I forgot their last name, but, but he had a nickname called Froggy? Froggy and Sarah. And he took me to a restaurant next door, and bought me a big plate of meatball and spaghetti. And that was the first big meal I had, and I just gobbled that down. And I remember says, " ; Froggy are you going to eat, eat that bread?" ; He says " ; No" ; ' ; says, so I took that bread from him, I ate his bread and oh, that was such a good meal I, I just remember that. And in the meantime, a few days later, my classmate from camp, his name is George Hikawa, he was at the pool hall and then he, he recognized me and then I told him the story I said you know I don' ; t have a place I just live at the bus terminal. He says " ; Oh my, my mother runs a boarding house." ; So he says " ; Come on over." ; So I says " ; You sure it' ; s okay? I don' ; t have any money." ; He says " ; Oh it' ; s okay." ; So I walked all the way down to the bus terminal, down the Loop, and then walk all the way back to their boarding house, which is on, between Goethe and Schiller on LaSalle Street, so 1330 N. LaSalle St was the address. So I brought all my gear and then, then I met the mother and, and the father also. And they says, " ; Oh, come on down for a meal." ; So I kinda felt guilty because I didn' ; t have any money, and all the rest of the guys there, there were about 14 guys there, mostly ex-GIs going to school under the GI bill. CL: Grandpa, were they mostly Japanese? TN: Mostly Ja--I think they were all Japanese. And a lot of them from Hawaii, from Idaho, from different places, and they were all going to school and living at that boarding house. So, so we made friends and when I first sat down I felt so guilty, but then Mrs. Hikawa she was so nice to me, and she says, and the father too he says, " ; I understand the situation" ; , he says, " ; Don' ; t worry about it." ; So I felt a little better, and then, from then on I started searching for jobs, and this guy says " ; Hey, you know there' ; s a place called Resettlers" ; I says " ; Where?" ; He says " ; Right down, you know a couple of blocks on LaSalle St." ; So I says " ; Oh okay" ; . Because I' ; m looking through the Yellow Pages and looking for addresses and you know there are some in the Loop, some way on the northside, and I, I it would take me all day just to go for one interview. So I says, " ; Oh I' ; ll try Resettlers" ; , so I walked down on Goethe, right on the corner was a Swedish club I remember. And I was, I was thinking all these people with, when they have parties they have all these tuxedos, and the women were wearing gowns going into the Swedish club. I said " ; Boy, is it nice to be rich?" ; [laughs] But I kept walking down, and then on the corner of Clark and LaSalle, I mean on Division and LaS--uh Division and LaSalle, there was a White Castle. White Castle hamburger? And then right past White Castle was this little storefront and uh, it says " ; Chicago Resettlers Committee" ; . So I walked down, I think you go down a step. And there was this man, I forgot what his name was, I was talking to him, I was looking for a job. And then he says " ; Well these are all the, all the stores or the company that' ; s going to hire Japanese Americans." ; So he says " ; You don' ; t have to worry about going different places and trying because these people--" ; he says, " ; --mostly I talked to and they' ; re willing to hire Japanese Americans." ; And w-- EL: When he said, when he said that, did he have a list to show you or-- TN: Yes, he ha-- EL: --specific job descriptions? TN: Right, well like this, one on the list was Curtiss Candy Company. And I heard of Curtiss Candy Company, I says, " ; Hey that' ; s Babe Ruth!" ; You know, so, he says, " ; Well a lot of, lot of issei women are working there so if you wanna try you can go over there." ; But then I was looking through the different brochures and things he had on the table, and my eye caught this LaSalle Photo Service. Underneath was a William Yamamoto. And I, I looked there and I says " ; Do you know this William Yamamoto?" ; He says, " ; Yeah he used to run a studio called ' ; Oriental Studio' ; , but he started a different business now." ; So I said I don' ; t know if it' ; s the same William Yamamoto that I knew in Amache, but so I said " ; Well, I' ; ll give it a try." ; So I walked down LaSalle St, and he was on ten forty--1048 S LaSalle St. So I' ; m walking down there, across the street was a ca--place called LaSalle Mans--LaSalle Mansion. And, talking to the guy he says " ; Well there' ; s a lot of people that we knew that lives in the LaSalle Mansion too because a lot of the people from Amache moved into the LaSalle Mansion." ; So it was right across from the LaSalle Mansion. And so I walk, I turned, and I see this apartment building, and I says " ; I' ; m looking for LaSalle Photo Service." ; And there' ; s no LaSalle Photo Service! So I ring the bell, and then this one Japanese man comes out, and he, I says, " ; You know I' ; m looking for LaSalle Photo Service." ; He says " ; Oh it' ; s downstairs in the basement." ; So I introduce myself and I says " ; You know, I' ; m looking for a job, I don' ; t know if, if this William Yamamoto was the same Ya--William Yamamoto that I knew in camp." ; So he says " ; Oh come on down, I' ; ll show you." ; So we went down to the basement. It was very dimly lit, and I see two people in the corner there, working. And then the, this, later on I find out his name is Tom Tsubone, he was uh, he owned, he bought the apartment building. And he, he says " ; Bill, there' ; s somebody here to see you." ; So soon as Bill looked at me and I looked at him I says, " ; That' ; s the same Bill that we knew in camp!" ; [laughs] So we started talking, and he was wondering what happened to me, I said " ; Well I was in the Navy, and then I just got out, I was going to go under the GI bill." ; So, so he says well there was this one lady working with him, so he says " ; Oh I just got married few years ago and this is my wife, Grace." ; So that' ; s how we got together. And I said, well this was in March, I applied for GI bill to go to this Ray-Vogue School of Photography on, on Michigan Ave in the Loop. So, so this was in, this was May. So I asked Bill I says, " ; You know I--I' ; ve been looking for a job, I go to school in the afternoons, and I' ; m looking for a job in the morning." ; So he says, " ; Perfect." ; I says, " ; Can you use a part-timer?" ; He says " ; I sure can." ; So that' ; s, that' ; s how we started in the basement. So I would get up 7:00 o' ; clock in the morning, go help him, and work, work with him ' ; till noon, then I would take the subway down to the Loop and go to school. [coughs] Excuse me. EL: And what kind of a school was it? TN: It was Ray-Vogue School of Photography and Fashion. It was one of these schools that pop up because of the GI bill. So after the GI bill ran out, that school went outta business. [laughs] But it was something that I wanted to learn because all I knew was military photography, you know? And I wanted to know a little about civilian photography. Well this one here happened to specialize in fashions. But I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t want to go into fashion photography, that was farthest from my mind. But they had the, the commercial division which I was interested in, so I went to the commercial division. And uh that was--I think the school classes lasted only 10 months, so after that I started working with Bill full time. And he' ; s--when, when we started, we st--we started with maybe about two or three stores, drug stores, mainly developing film for the drug stores. And we had, on the way we had this Dressler drug stores on Clark and Division. And so we would stop in and talk to the Japanese stores, little mom and pop stores, and Toguri was a pretty big store. And we would say " ; Well, if anybody drops off a roll of film for, to develop," ; says, " ; we' ; ll put this sign out, saying that you develop films." ; So that' ; s how we got all of these Japanese stores along Clark St, and then have York, York Foods, Toguri' ; s, there was another mercantile store on the, that was, east side of Clark St, and there several stores north of Clark St, and that' ; s how we started out. And we worked there for--from May 2nd, and the next year we had, we were so busy we had to move to another place, so we, we relocated to Fullerton Avenue. There was a storefront, a typical Chicago storefront, 25-foot frontage with a window, display window with a door in the middle. And that--that' ; s where we moved, and that' ; s how we began our second generation of photo finishing. And a few years later business continued to grow, so Bill bought a lot on the corner of Diversey and Paulina, and we built a photo plant from the ground up over there. And a few years later, our business continued to grow, in the meantime we had, at, on Fullerton Ave, we had a lot of nisei workers, workin' ; for us part time. And some of them stayed for us for almost 30 years. And when we moved to Diversey, we had about 20, 20 people at, when we were on Fullerton, and then we moved to Diversey and then that grew to about 125 people, so we had to expand again. So we expanded to an area of 3300-square foot of service space. And by that time our employees grew to over 400 employees and we, we were known as people who hire Japanese Americans only. ' ; Cause although we, we had lot of Caucasian people, lot of them they came to me in my office one day, he says " ; You know, Tom," ; says, " ; I like working here but I know there' ; s a invisible glass ceiling and I' ; m going to look somewhere else." ; So when he, when he said that, I said " ; Oh my gosh!" ; Says, " ; You reminded me all the prejudice ag--against the Japanese Americans" ; and now here the Japanese Americans, unconsciously because, you know we didn' ; t do it intentionally, we just wanted help the niseis out. Because lot of them were looking for jobs, and they knew that they could find a job. I used t--I used to tell my friends I said " ; If you' ; re a Japanese American, you got a 99% chance of getting a job at LaSalle Photo." ; [Laughs] But uh, it was a--it was, it was not in a prejudicial way, you know we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t just want Japanese Americans, because eventually we hired a lot of different other races. They' ; re uh, although I do admit a lot of them are Asian, because we had lot from Korea, lot of Filipino people, lot of, lot from Thailand, and we had blacks, whites, well we, we had quite a mixture of them. And a lot of Spanish, so it was a, kind of a potpourri of, of Chicago. And I can' ; t, I can' ; t say too much maybe I, maybe I' ; d like to emphasize how much Bill helped the Japanese American community. He not only helped the Resettlers, but when they changed to the JASC, he helped them a lot too. I remember one year he bought a van, and he had it, he had it made so that it would take care of the handicapped people. And at that time you know cars were 18,000, 20,000, but this van, I told Bill I said " ; Boy, how much did this set you back?" ; He says " ; Oh in the 50s." ; I said " ; Whoa my gosh!" ; [laughs] So the people from JASC came to our plant to pick up the van, and it had one of these things where you could get the wheelchair, and get on with the wheelchair. And we, we took pictures in the back of our plant, and they were appreciative. And he wouldn' ; t say but I know monetarily he helped the JASC a lot, and his wife Grace helped a lot, and then his daughter, Nancy, she helped a lot. When she was, after she retired I think she was working almost full time there for a while and also as uh, an advisor. I don' ; t know if you know, knew a Nancy Yoshida? EL: I don' ; t, I' ; m actually fairly new-- TN: Oh, okay. El: --to the JASC, and new to Chicago, so I don' ; t have that network of connections. TN: Oh okay, but anyway she was, she was one of those that really helped out a lot, a lot to people, because of her mother and father doing this. So-- CL: Grandpa, I have a quick question. Um, did--or actually, Emma, do you have a question first? Um, what--did you feel like people were supportive of LaSalle Photo expanding, either like, through the city process or like the neighborhoods that you were expanding in, like how did non-Japanese people react to you becoming so successful? TN: Well, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think they had any animosity towards us. Yeah, matter of fact lot of the, you know homes that we needed the land. So what Bill did was he offered them a offer you know like uh, The Godfather says " ; I' ; m gonna offer you an offer you can' ; t refuse." ; [laughs] So, so they were, he built, he, he bought out three buildings next door, and he paid top real estate price, plus the move-in to the new place. So, so once, once they moved out then we tore everything down and we expanded our building out there. And, and we needed parking for our employees so there was couple of more buildings that we bought out and tore it down, and made it into employee parking lot. So I guess-- CL: What about this, the city, like when you were getting permits and stuff? TN: [Laughs] Oh, well I, I don' ; t know if I should tell about the city of Chicago. [Laughs] But this--[Laughs] Shall I do that Cori? CL: I think it would be fine, ' ; cause it' ; s, it' ; s all old news. TN: Oh, well a lot of times it' ; s, it' ; s still current, you know what happens? [laughs] But uh, working with this city of Chicago, you know building, expanding, all of these things. It was a lot of headache because, you know I, I try to be honest in the business, and then I find out that in order to expand in business in Chicago, you have to get to know what the word mean--word of " ; payola ' ; ' ; means. I don' ; t know if you understand payola. And everything was under the table, and that' ; s how we were able to expand. Otherwise you know, it took years and years for different departments to approve, and you needed somebody to push this through the building department. So, well we weren' ; t able to, to wait years you know, you have the fire department, the water--water department. City, city bidding--buil--building codes and all that the red tape that you have to go through. Well one of the secrets, I guess I could tell this, is knowing your alderman. He has the power, he is a power in your ward. And, he has so much influence in City Hall. But, I, I hate to break this but I have to take another break. So can you-- EL: Go right ahead, I' ; ll pause the recording. -- EL: Okay, so we' ; ll pick up where we left off. You were talking about expanding the business, and a little bit about what it takes to grease the wheels a little bit in Chicago. And, just for clarification, would you be able to define for me the time period when all of that growth and expansion was happening? TN: Okay, well the, the growth period, it started from uh, well we--I started in May of 1949, and this was in the 50s and 60s and 70s when the growth started. So by the time I retired, I retired in 1989, we had, I was checking the payroll, and we had over 750 people employed. Well what we did was, I think in the 70s or--yes I think it was in the 70s, late 70s when we, when we started acquiring retail store, retail store outlets. You know, in the 40s, in the early 40s and 50s I think there was a law saying that manufacturers cannot have their own retail outlet. And Eastman Kodak Company had to close all of their retail outlet stores. So, what we did was not against that law because we were not a manufacturer, we were a service company. And we started buying out some of these camera stores, that were on the verge of bankruptcy or whatever, and then we started building our own camera stores. This is long past, I could, I think I could reveal this, that we had 22 retail outlet stores, and the majority of them were called " ; Lion Photo Service" ; . And we had, we had stores in Chicago, and a lot of them in the suburbs. Our biggest store was in Schaumburg, and our next biggest Lion Store was in Fox Valley, near Aurora. And we had a lot of other stores, we had one big store on Wabash Avenue, in the Loop. And of course we had others, small stores throughout like Skokie Camera became one of our stores. And we had accounts from--furthest north was Milwaukee, Wisconsin, we used to have drivers drive up there every day. And as far west as Aurora, and Fox Valley, Elgin, we had the Elgin, several store outlets in Elgin. And Algonquin, and far south is in Gary, Indiana. And of course some of our biggest commercial accounts was the Florsheim Shoe Company and they' ; re outside of the Loop there. And there was a big, big account in Racine, Wisconsin. The name of the company slips my mind, but they' ; re a big tool manufacturing company. Oh Snap-on Tools! Yeah they were, they were one of our big accounts. And what we do is we photograph, make big photographs of these, and send it out all over the country. Of course but Marshall Field they had their own delivery system, so we would deliver it to their warehouse and they would send it out to all of their stores. And they would display it in their window displays. And uh-- CL: Grandpa, so I was wondering since we are almost at the end of the interview, if you could also talk a little bit about some of the social groups? Um, any Japanese social groups that either you or like grandma, or mom were a part of? TN: Okay, good, oh yes, I could do that in a nutshell. Not actually, it has to be a big nutshell. [laughs] Well I was, I was a bachelor for about seven years in Chicago, and there are a lot of, when we, when we first, when I first came here they had a lot of wome--girls, girls group. You know, when they came out of camp, all of the different girls from different camps they form groups. They were known as Titles, the Debonnaires, the Silhouettes. And each one of those groups had maybe ' ; bout 10, 15 girls. And lot of them are still going to school, and lot of them graduated. So there was kind of a mixture between 18 to 21 I guess. And what they would do is they would, sponsor dances. And of course, when all of the groups, there were about, I can' ; t remember the exact amount, but there were maybe about six or seven different girls' ; groups. And they would have a dance at the YMCA on Chicago Avenue, or was that a YWCA? I can' ; t remember. But then all of the people from the south side, north side, all the young guys they would go, go to the dance. And that' ; s how we met all the different girls around the Chicago area. And of course the other event was, there' ; s a lot of th-the boys, they was form sports teams. You know basketball teams, baseball teams, and they would gather together and have team parties. And the year that I went, they had, I think it might have been the first or second all camp picnic. It was on the west side, near, close to Cicero, Illinois. And I think they, they had about I can' ; t remember the figure. The figure 20,000 comes but I think that' ; s the, the, all of the evacuees. But there are-there were a big, big, crowd at the picnic. And we would just go around, and looking to see what, what people you knew from camp. And also you met lot of other people that were in other camps that you knew before the war. So, so it was a, a good time. I think, majority of the people that lived in the Chicago area went to that picnic. So it was a great picnic. I don' ; t know if Resettlers sponsored it, I don' ; t know who sponsored it but, but it grew a, it drew a big, nisei crowd. And-- EL: In the--oh, go ahead. TN: In the 1950s, late 1950s, I met this one girl, she was from Hawaii. And I--and she stayed at the boarding house with another girl from Hawaii. And during that summer time, she had a sister that was going to Indiana State Teachers College. And she came to visit her sisters, and she had a brother here too. She came to visit, and then we started going out on a picnic together. You know, it was not only her but her girl friends that went to Indiana State. So we used to go out to Lincoln Park, bring out the goza, and have a picnic out there. And later on one, one August, it was August 18th, 1956 I think, 55. Her girlfriend says " ; Oh Tom," ; her name was Stella, said " ; Tom you know, Patsy, we' ; re giving her a surprise birthday party, you think you could ask her for a date?" ; so I says, " ; Oh yeah sure, okay." ; All this time we just met as a group, so I went to her room and I says " ; What are you doing this--" ; I forgot what day of the week it was. She says " ; Oh nothing." ; So I says, " ; Well you wanna go out for dinner?" ; She says " ; Okay," ; so I said " ; Oh, I' ; ll pick you up at 7," ; I think it was 7 or 7:30. Because the dinner was going to be at this restaurant in Chinatown. So I, I took her out--I picked her up, and we drove towards Chinatown. I says " ; How do you feel like Chinese food?" ; She says, " ; Oh, I like Chinese food" ; so I said " ; Good! So we' ; ll go to this one Chinese restaurant." ; And here, well, this was her f--our first date together, you know we always dated as a group. So I parked the car and bring her into this Chinese restaurant, and soon as we walk in, you know she' ; s expecting just the two of us. And then all of a sudden, I walked to the table and hear all of her friends, her sisters, her brothers, and all her girl friends from Indiana State, says " ; Surprise! Happy birthday!" ; [Laughs] And that' ; s how we first got together on our first date, and rest of ' ; em was history. Seven great--seven grandchildren and one great-grandchild, oh, God has really blessed me. And I could tell you about my spiritual life too but that' ; s gonna take another hour. CL: Grandpa, that would take 10 hours! EL: And we could always schedule another follow-up interview if you' ; re up for it, and Cori if that' ; s something that you' ; re interested in, I feel like you have so many stories to tell, and I have so many more questions to ask you. But, building on what you were just telling us, when you proposed to your wife, did you do that somewhere in Chicago? TN: Yes, I--I remember the exact space, the exact place. It was on the porch, at 1330 N LaSalle St. [laughs] EL: And was that where you were living or where she was living? TN: We were both, both staying there. I was on the 1330 side and she was on the 1328 side, because her and her girlfriend Stella, was living in an apartment, and her sister was living on 1328 side. Her, her name was Charlotte. And her other sister later moved to 1328, and her name was Gladys. So when they first found an apartment on north Kenmore, they found out the apartment was full of bed bugs, so they moved out of there and moved to, to 1328, North LaSalle Street. CL: And you all stayed in those two flats for awhile, or where, where did you raise mom? TN: You mean Reta Street? Oh, well that' ; s after we, we got married and we had to my, my oldest daughter Kelly. And in the meantime, my sister-in-law and her husband, and my other sister-in-law, they bought a apartment building, three-flat apartment building, on north Reta Street near Wrigley Field. So uh, they both, they both moved in. On the third floor was a, a tenant, a Jewish tenant and they eventually moved out. So after, we w--we were living on Lakeside Place, near the Aragon Ballroom there. And we moved to the third floor, and that' ; s where, my three daughters and their, their cousins grew up together. We were like one big family. And there was, three, three floors of us, so from the time they were small, they, they were like, fighting like brothers and sisters actually. And they' ; re still close today. And, all of their children they' ; re all, they' ; re all close too. They' ; re all, nice close cousins, right Cori? And you fight like cats and dogs sometimes too. [Laughs] CL: Yes. [laughs] TN: But we all love each other, and I' ; m so proud of them! All of them are so successful in life, they' ; re so talented, I' ; m so proud of them. And I' ; m just waiting for this pandemic to be over so I could give all of them a big hug! [Laughs] EL: I think a lot of people are looking forward to that time. On a related note, I' ; m curious, during the time that you were--especially the early days in Chicago, and your own family was quite far away geographically, how did you maintain a connection with them during that time? TN: Well my, my parents lived in California. My sister, my brothers, they all lived in California. So, after I bought a car, almost every year I would, on my vacation time I would drive to California and visit them for two weeks. Well actually it was ' ; bout ten days the other time was left in driving. But, I don' ; t know how many times I drove cross country, but from Route 66, to Route 40, to Route 30 I knew all the routes to California! [laughs] But sometimes, I would go with some of my friends because we would share a ride, and few of them lived in San Francisco and some of them lived in Los Angeles. So we' ; d just share a ride, and that' ; s how I would keep in contact with my parents. But, other than that, I don' ; t know if there' ; s enough time to share about my religion, but I don' ; t, I don' ; t know if-- EL: If you' ; re feeling energetic enough to keep talking, my schedule is clear and I can stay on the call, but it' ; s up to you. TN: Okay well, I' ; ll just try to be a few minutes because when, when I came to Chicago, I was a Buddhist. You know my mother and father were strictly Buddhist, and Yuba City was mostly people that believed in Buddhism. You know when I was at the-the boarding house, these people from Moody Bible Institute, which is located right on Chicago Avenue and, and LaSalle Street there. LaSalle and Clark. They would come by and they would pass out brochures, and all of us GIs we would just sit out in the front porch and we would make catcalls and whistles to all the, the girls that would go to this Moody Bible Church on North Avenue. So whenever Sunday came all the, all the girls would walk on the other side of LaSalle Street, because they, because they knew that we would make whistles and catcalls to them. But one day one of the guys from Moody Bible stopped and gave all of us little brochures. And we looked at it, and we just threw it away in the g--waste basket. But every day he would come and, and he targeted my friend Danny Takeguchi and myself, and he would just, I don' ; t know why he targeted the two of us because we were both raised up Buddhist. But then, one Sunday Danny and I says, " ; Hey this, this guy' ; s goin' ; stop and talk to us so let' ; s go inside." ; So we went inside our room, and we were sitting, laying down in our beds reading a book, pretty soon there' ; s a knock on the door. And then there' ; s this guy! I says, I' ; m looking at Danny I said, " ; Boy, is this guy persistent!" ; So, so we didn' ; t wanna be rude, so we invited him in and he started talking to us about Jesus Christ. So, so he gave me, he gave us a little booklet on the book of Saint Johns. And he, he told us about creation, and of course this is the first time I heard about creation. And it says, uh, in this book, are you a Christian, are you, are you familiar with the Bible, Emma? EL: I attended a Catholic school for a few years, I wasn' ; t raised Christian but I have some familiarity. TN: Oh okay, okay. But, but in this book it says, " ; In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." ; So, he asked us " ; You know when the beginning was?" ; I says " ; Yeah, because you know, we came from the ocean and we, we' ; re a fish, we develop legs, and then eventually we grew up to be an ape." ; So that' ; s when he started explain to me about how God has created the heavens and the earth. So, so this is how I became a Christian. It took a few months of his persistency, but he kept coming and he started sharing little bit here and there. And then eventually, he took us to this one Japane--well, he, he took us to this Moody Bible Church. And Danny and I sat up on the second balcony, and we' ; re looking down and then I' ; m telling Danny I said " ; Hey Danny I didn' ; t know there were so many Christians in this place," ; because there were over 2000 people at the Moody church, and that' ; s how I became involved in Christianity. And another comment I wanted to make, this is on a spiritual basis, was that when I had my three daughters you know when they were teenagers, getting ready to be a marriageable age after college, I was praying to God I says, " ; Oh God, pray that they will meet a nice, Christian, nis--nisei or sansei man" ; you know? And then all of a sudden God played a big trick on me. First one that got married was my daughter, and she got married to this Caucasian guy. And the second one, I says " ; Well maybe, maybe my second daughter will marry a nice sansei person." ; and she says " ; Oh Dad I' ; m gettin--I' ; m getting married to this person." ; I says " ; What is he?" ; She says " ; Oh, he goes to our church." ; I said " ; Oh good, good!" ; Because this, participants at our church was mostly nisei and sansei people. And she says " ; Oh his name is Charlie Lin." ; I says, " ; Charlie Lin." ; [laughs] And then, after I met him I said, says, " ; At least the Christian part was correct, he was a good Christian" ; and he turned out to be the nicest son-in-law I ever had. He was, he was takin' ; after me because he said " ; Dad, I' ; m taking after you because I have three daughters" ; and then, and he says, says, " ; And they' ; re all going to be a Christians" ; so I says, " ; Charlie, you are the best!" ; and I still miss him today. He was such a good son-in-law. He was a good dad right? Kristi--Cori. I still miss him. But I think that' ; s, that' ; s about it, I' ; m getting out of breath. So thank you-- EL: And we' ; re comi-- TN: Thank you so much Emma for the time, to reveal--share part of my life you know, 93, 92 years of life, and, and they seem to just go by so quickly, and I' ; m glad that I was able to show my granddaughter Cori, leave some of the legacy on the book, on the books. Thank you so much. EL: Well thank you for being so generous with your time, and your remarkable memory. I am just in awe of how clearly you remember things, and how, how detailed your descriptions are. So thank you, from the bottom of my heart. TN: You' ; re welcome. EL: And Cori, thank you for organizing this. And as I said if there' ; s any interest in continuing the conversation and recording again, we can absolutely do that, it' ; s quite easy to set up a time. One advantage of this pandemic is that geography is no longer a barrier for us. So, I' ; m going to stop the recording now, but you' ; re welcome to stay on the line for a moment after that and we can say our goodbyes, but I' ; ll end it here with a thank you. TN: You' ; re welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NakamuraTom20210316.xml NakamuraTom20210316.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/18" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021)</a><br /><br />Oral History Interview: <a href="https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/2735" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Lin, Cori Nakamura (12/15/2022)</a>
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Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021)
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An account of the resource
Tom Kazumi Nakamura was born in Marysville, California in 1928. Growing up on a peach farm, Tom attended a small school in rural northern California along with his siblings. At the age of 14, Tom and his family were forced to sell their possessions and take only what they could carry as they were sent to “camp” by the US Government, via Executive Order 9066. After being taken to the Merced assembly center, Tom and his family were incarcerated in Amache. After the war, Tom enlisted in the Navy, training in naval photography. This translated to his work later on, as after discharge he moved back to California, and planned to make his way to New York to attend photography school paid by the GI bill, taking small jobs along the way. Instead, he met an old friend from camp in Chicago, William Yamamoto, and the two of them took LaSalle Photo, a small photo developing shop, and grew it into a company that at its peak employed hundreds of nisei and other individuals in the Chicagoland area. Tom shares memories of meeting his wife, Patsy, and their first date, as well as stories of his family, and his relationship with religion. One of his grandchildren, Cori Lin, joins him in this interview.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1949
Date
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2021-03-16
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video
Series: Oral History Project
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Watanabe, Anne
Interview Keyword
Yonsei
Shin Issei
Intergenerational Trauma
Addiction
Isolation
Tashme
Lillooet
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/19/2017 Watanabe, Anne (8/19/2017) 45:22:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came For Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Gallery, in conjunction with the exhibit < ; i> ; Then They Came for Me< ; /i> ; . Japanese--Canada--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945 Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945 Yonsei Shin Issei Intergenerational Trauma Addiction Isolation Tashme Lillooet Watanabe, Anne Takada, Anna video 1:|14(8)|28(13)|42(12)|54(9)|66(7)|76(11)|87(5)|97(9)|109(7)|125(11)|137(3)|146(12)|157(5)|168(12)|179(8)|190(12)|200(9)|212(12)|225(1)|236(12)|245(8)|254(5)|271(10)|280(15)|290(8)|302(7)|312(7)|322(10)|331(8)|343(1)|357(4)|367(5)|377(6)|387(13)|398(2)|409(7)|420(13)|428(2)|439(4)|450(5)|461(3)|474(6)|484(14)|496(18)|512(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/306100233/8fc4f3dbf8 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/306100233" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; English Anne Watanabe is a Japanese Canadian Yonsei and Shin-Issei born in the Midwest and raised on the East Coast and in Canada. She shares her experiences with intergenerational trauma and healing. Anne discusses the challenges of younger generations collecting their family stories. She talks about learning in her early 20s how silence and assimilation were a common part of the internment experience. Anne concludes with reflections on connecting the incarceration to other white supremacist projects such as the model minority myth. She also talks about understanding her family Anna Takada: So could we start by, can you state your name and name, age and hometown? Anne Watanabe: Yeah. Um, my name is Anne Yuki Watanabe. Um, my, I' ; m 27 years old and my hometown, I, I don' ; t really feel like I have a hometown because I moved around growing up. I lived in like a bunch of places, like seven years at a time, but I was born in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. And then I lived in Ottawa for three years, then New Jersey for seven years. And then I went to college in Western Mass. AT: And what if you don' ; t mind me asking, what was the reason for moving around? AW: Um, it was like, I think a combination, like my dad went to grad school in Champaign-Urbana, and then when he finished school he, like, it was, I guess it was mostly like employment and school related for my parents. Yeah. AT: And do you have any siblings? AW: I have one brother, actually, no, I have two siblings. I have a brother who' ; s two years older than me, who I grew up with, and then I have a half sister who I' ; ve never met. She was adopted in a closed adoption. So, um, I' ; m planning to look for her, but she won' ; t be able to like look for us until she' ; s 18. So I can' ; t really, I feel like I can' ; t really do anything about it right now. AT: Okay. And so Champaign, Ottawa, New Jersey, Western Mass. Umm. Where of those places do you, do you identify any one is home more than the other? AW: No, I don' ; t really, I have a hard time with that. Like I have a hard time with the concept of home and I think like it is partly about having this sort of geographically like moved around throughout my childhood. But I think it' ; s also partly about this like pattern of leaving that I feel like my parents were kind of in like they both moved pretty far away from their families of origin. They were the only people in their families of origin to like, you know, leave sort of their hometowns. And so yeah, I feel like I' ; ve like internalized something similar about not quite feeling like settled anywhere. AT: And so, so where, where were your parents from? AW: Um, so my mom is from Tokyo. Um, she, yeah, she was born and raised in Japan and she lived there until, I think her late twenties or early thirties. And my dad is from, from Ottawa. I think he grew up between like Toronto and Ottawa. I' ; m not sure. I think it was mostly an Ottawa. Um, but his whole family is Japanese Canadian and they all live in like either Toronto or Ottawa. AT: Okay. Um, you, can you, can you talk a little bit about, um, about your family' ; s connection to the history of the incarceration during World War II and Canada and you know, where your grandparents were? AW: Yeah, so I don' ; t feel like I know a whole lot because I haven' ; t really gotten to talk to them about it a lot. And you know, my family' ; s, which partly has to do with sort of my relationship with my family in general. But, um, my dad' ; s family was all incarcerated in Canada that during World War II. So they originally were from the West Coast of Canada, like I think in like Vancouver and um, and they were incarcerated in the Tashme and Lillooet camps. I don' ; t really know anything about those camps. I did. Um, I tried to do an oral history interview with my grandfather, my dad' ; s father, and then also with my Auntie Fumi who is my grandmother' ; s sister. Um, but yeah, I feel like, you know, I, it was really hard to kind of get any stories and I feel like I like really kind of got the summer camp version of the story where it was sort of like, yeah, you know, like it was hard, but we worked hard and it was fine. AT: Um, so growing up, uh, where your, did you have your grandparents alive and did you have a relationship with them? AW: Yeah, my grandfather is still alive. Um, but I would say like, you know, my relationship with my dad' ; s family has always felt kind of fraught. Um, cause like I think my parents were both sort of like the black sheeps of their family. And, um, in my, you know, my dad kind of like moved far away and so we wouldn' ; t see them that often, like maybe like once a year at the most. Um, but there was always a lot of tension between, like, there was, there was like tension about like the nikkei-ness of like my family where like my mom had this narrative that like, they didn' ; t like her because she was too Japanese and my, and, but she was also like very like judgmental of them as like nikkei, like Japanese Canadians where she felt like they weren' ; t like truly Japanese. Um, and you know, and there were like tensions for other reasons. So whenever we went there to visit, like I was always kind of being given this narrative, like, like, we should be careful here because they don' ; t really like us. Um, and so I think I just never really felt that close to my dad' ; s family because I didn' ; t, you know, I felt the sense of like distrust when I was there. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, the, the like, yeah, I mean, I grew up knowing, I don' ; t remember like how exactly how I learned about it, but there was like openness about the fact that like, you know, like Japanese, um, incarceration during World War II had happened. And I later found out, I didn' ; t know this at the time growing up, but I later found out that my grandfather was involved in some of like the reparations work, like the organizing around it. Um, and he was very like, you know, like he' ; s Nisei and like he speaks Japanese fluently and like he, um, you know, like did taiko drumming and stuff. And so he didn' ; t, I think he tried to like pass on sort of like, he just, um, well what am I saying, uh, yeah, just like he, he clearly like felt that the incarceration was an injustice and he was like open and from that and he liked, did work around that and he did work to like, you know, personally connect with his Japanese heritage and for his children to have some of that too. Um, so yeah, that' ; s definitely something I saw, but it does feel like there is, you know, um, like there' ; s this way in which like, it impacted my family that like, like nobody really wanted to talk about that. Um, like I think, you know, my, like, I think, part of my fam, my parents both leaving their families of origin like had something to do with like family trauma, although it' ; s not really clear to me like what exactly, but my dad dealt with like a lot of addiction later in his life. Um, like my dad died in 2012 but in like, you know, like the five, let' ; s see, 2012. Yeah, I would say like the five or six years before he died, like he dealt with like a ton of addiction to some like pretty hard drugs. Like he was addicted to crack and heroin. Um, he kind of went through this like midlife crisis and um, you know, he was like in and out of jail and he was in and out of rehab briefly. And then he went back to Canada and he actually liked, got completely clean and like had this like major recovery, but then he liked died of a heart attack a couple of years later. So I, I dunno, I' ; m just like, you know, I just like, and especially like growing up too, like there was a lot of trauma in my nuclear family. Um, and like stuff that my parents were struggling with and that my dad in particular struggling with. And so I kind of feel like you don' ; t like do that unless you' ; re like dealing with some like demons, but he just, and, yeah. And I just like, you know, I saw, I noticed all of the sort of like gaps in my family' ; s ability to like, you know, there' ; s just kind of like, we don' ; t really know where that came from. Like we don' ; t really know or like just like not talking about like the incarceration and how it' ; s impacted our family. But like, I believe that it has, but I don' ; t quite like, know in what way. AT: And does your dad have siblings? AW: Yeah, he has four siblings. Um, he has one older sister and three younger brothers. AT: Excuse me. How in what you know about them, like do you think that they, have you ever talked about the incarceration with them or like outside of your nuclear family? AW: Yeah, I have. Um, they' ; re like a, they' ; re more open about it then my grandfather. So, you know, they' ; ve kind of told me that like, like I know my grandfather had a younger brother who died while they were in the camps. Like he, there was like some situation where he was supposed to be watching his younger brother and they were like out somewhere. I don' ; t remember exactly what the circumstance was, but like he had been charged with watching him and then somehow like his brother died, like he like fell in a river or something, something like he drowned I think. And so he, my grandfather felt like super responsible for that and somehow like that particular circumstance happening was like connected to the whole like experience of being incarcerated. Um, and so, yeah, like my uncles have, you know, kind of said that they think my grandfather has a lot of like, you know, just like anger and like resen-, like bitterness about the experience, but he doesn' ; t, but it just like he doesn' ; t, he doesn' ; t talk about it in that way. Um, like, yeah, like it' ; s just hard. But yeah, like they, they think that that' ; s part of kind of what has like been like hard in our family is that he does have all this like, stuff that is bottled up or that he' ; s been holding in, but like, you know, it' ; s just like, it' ; s just there. AT: And what about your grandmother' ; s side and her story of internment? AW: Yeah, it' ; s a good question. You know, I really, I really feel like I didn' ; t know my grandmother at all. Um, yeah, like she, I was never close with her and like, she really didn' ; t, like, she didn' ; t have a very vocal presence. Like, I don' ; t remember ever having a conversation with her. Um, you know, like she was just sort of there. And then it was, it was weird cause when I asked my uncle about that, or like one of my uncles, he was just like, yeah, I don' ; t remember ever having a conversation with her either. And I was like, well, that was your mom. Um, so there' ; s kind of, and like, yeah, her relationship with my grandfather was kind of like deferential in this way, that I don' ; t know. Like, yeah, I just feel like I didn' ; t really get to see her that much, like as a person. Um, I feel like I knew her sister is more than I knew her, which like her, her older sister Auntie Fumi who' ; s like the oldest. My grandmother had four sisters and Auntie Fumi was the oldest and she was the youngest. Um, and Auntie Fumi is kind of like the matriarch of the family and like, you know, like, like lots of like multiple, like my, I think my dad and some of my uncles had like lived in her basement and while they were like in school or like, you know, she just kind of like took care of everybody. Like she never got married or had her own family. She like took care of her parents, like when they became elderly. Um, and especially my great-grandmother, like they lived together for a long time until my great-grandmother died. Um, and yeah, like Auntie Fumi has always sort of asserted that like she did what she wanted and, um, you know, she always wanted to take care of her parents and kind of like do her duty as like the oldest. Um, but yeah, like I also tried to ask her about the incarceration a little bit and you know, she' ; s very, like, she' ; s a really like, practical sort of person and she doesn' ; t, you know, she, I know she like, she taught elementary school during the camps. Um, so she was, she was like, I think like a teenager. I think she was like 16 or so. Um, but she was one of like the elementary school teachers because they just didn' ; t have enough people to like teach school. Um, so then she later became a teacher, like after the war. Um, and yeah, and I knew like, they grew like, you know, gardens and stuff for food. AT: Um, and so, and this is what you' ; ve learned from conversations with her directly? AW: Yeah. Yeah. She' ; s told me that. Um, yeah, I don' ; t, but yeah, she doesn' ; t really talk about how she felt about it. Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I know they were, you know, I guess they were resettled to like the Toronto and Ottawa area, which are like in the Eastern sort of side of Canada. So similar to like what happened in the U.S. Um, and other people, like my dad' ; s cousin had talk, has talked to me about how, you know, she really like feels like, um, like Japanese Canadian communities got like broken up after the war and how she feels like people were afraid to like openly, like identify too much as a community, um, and afraid of being targeted in the same way again. But yeah, it all feel, I guess it all feels really piecemeal. Like I don' ; t feel like I' ; ve really had super coherent conversations with anyone in my family. It' ; s just like little bits and pieces here and there. AT: What are some other, um, like stories, like family stories or, you know, that' ; s the needs and like in my experience too is, you know, it' ; s like just a blurb, you know, I, I feel like I' ; m just like collecting little pieces of, um, you know, my, my own family' ; s experiences. And it sounds like it' ; s similar. So, um, if there are more stories, what might some of those be or memories? AW: Yeah, he know. I feel like I might be the extent of them. I really can' ; t think of that many more. I mean, I know we had like, you know, like Farewell to Manzanar and like that, like that was a book that like my grandparents had in their house. Um, so I think I' ; ve probably read that at some point. Um, and, but yeah, I feel like I didn' ; t really get it as like a significant thing when I was growing up. Um, because of how it was kind of treated as a very like, as like sort of a footnote, you know, in, in my family. Like it was right the way that it was piecemeal. It was sort of just like this like, oh, side note. We were incarcerated during World War II. Um, so I don' ; t think I really understood that it was significant and it was only later in life after I became an adult that I became a lot more interested in the history. Like, even everything that I do know, it' ; s mostly stuff I' ; ve learned after, you know, like in my early twenties, um, when I was just like, oh, whoa, I' ; ve never actually heard the stuff from my family is I went and kind of tried to go digging for it a little bit. Um, but that was challenging too because there was like other stuff that had happened in my family. So like I was kind of like a little bit estranged from them for a couple of years. Um, so I just didn' ; t really have the relationships to be able to really get more of the story in the way that I wanted. AT: Okay. And so you said you were kind of delving into it in your early 20s. Was that when you were in the college? AW: Mmhmm, yeah, when I was in college, I, um, I was in a class that I had to write a research paper for and I ended up writing it on like the intergenerational effects of Japanese internment, which was not necessarily something I had, I was out there looking for. But I like, I, I, it was like a, I was trying to like look at how, um, you know, I was interested in sort of like Asian American and Japanese American, like activism in like the 70s and 80s. And through that I like enc-, stumbled across some books that talked about like the intergenerational stuff. And I was really surprised because I had never read about that or like thought about it before. Um, but I definitely recognize a lot of myself and my family and sort of like the stuff around how people didn' ; t talk about it and how, you know, people had a very like, summer camp sort of narrative about the whole thing or at least like a lot of people did, or my family did. Um, and you know, I, I identified too, like some of those books talked about how like trauma showed up in terms of like addiction and in terms of like, you know, like, um, like family violence and things like that that happened, um, as a result and how that was connected to like anger about the internment. Um, so yeah, I think I like thought a lot about, you know, like, especially at that point in my life. I think my dad was living back in Canada at that point and had, you know, was like no longer really using drugs, but he had just very recently like been in all of that. So yeah, like I was thinking a lot about how him going through that, like that that had come from somewhere. Um, and trying to like understand what he was dealing with and yeah, I think, um, I think like, it' ; s interesting how, you know, like I felt really disconnected. Like I have, it' ; s weird like, you know, compared to a lot of other like nikkei people, I have a lot of connection to sort of my, like my Japanese heritage because my mom is an immigrant from Japan and so like, I grew up bilingual and like, you know, I grew up like visiting her family in Japan. Um, and then my, my dad' ; s family, like, you know, like they at least did like pass down a lot of the sort of cultural stuff. Like they grew up, you know, like my grandfather plays taiko and they grew up doing judo and like, you know, they' ; re like Buddhists in my grandmother' ; s family who like go to temple who will go to a Japanese American temple every week. And so like that stuff had been passed down. But like I still felt really disconnected from, I guess from like a sense of like community around it because my parents had both sort of like, we' ; re really isolated from Japanese Canadian or like, you know, Japanese American community. Um, and I didn' ; t, I don' ; t know, like I just, um, yeah, I think that lack of community like made it feel like my identity, like as a Japanese American person wasn' ; t really, like, I just had no frame of reference for it. It was just like whatever was in my own life. AT: Sure. AW: But yeah. AT: Do you think that' ; s because, um, what, why, why do you think that was kind of, um, disconnect or not, or not, you know, like being a part of any particular communities that are moving or? AW: Yeah, I mean, it was definitely from moving, um, and from like living in places where there weren' ; t really communities. Cause I mean, I think, um, you know, like it seems like Ottawa and Toronto were probably some of the major resettlement sites in Canada. So like, there were communities there. And I think, um, yeah, it' ; s not clear to me how much my dad' ; s generation, like the sansei generation grew up with a community. Um, but like definitely like my grandfather' ; s like generation, like the nisei generation, you know, like their whole sort of social community was like very Japanese. Um, and it seems like, yeah, like there was a solid, like nikkei community there. Um, so I think that that really existed in the place that my dad grew up in, but like, but he left and you know, for whatever reason, like, yeah, that wasn' ; t something that he felt connected to or like wanting to seek out. Um, and so, yeah. And in none of the places that I lived there wasn' ; t really like, you know, like a nikkei community in the sense of like, post-World War II resettlement. Like there were some times like in New Jersey, like there were some like sort of like shin-nisei community or like shin-nikkei communities of like people who had immigrated more recently, but that' ; s like a really different experience. Um, so yeah, I don' ; t know, like I guess I, yeah, I still wonder about like, why, why my dad left and why cause I, yeah, I feel like that has like really impacted my sense of connection. Like I just wonder what it would have been like to grow up in, you know, in like Ottawa or in Toronto where I would have had a really different, like kind of access to like a Japanese, like to a yonsei community. AT: And so when you came to Chicago, I mean, how we met was through Japanese American community programs, things like that. So can you, can you talk a little bit about your experience coming to Chicago? And, I mean, I imagine you, you tapped in at some point, so can you describe what that was like? AW: Yeah, it was really, um, yeah, it was really interesting. I, I definitely was like seeking something, you know, and I felt a lot of like, both really wanting it and also like, you know, knowing that I' ; m like an outsider to this particular like community that has this long history of having resettled here right after World War II and, and really having like built, you know, like, especially like, because of all the sort of exclusion from things like housing or like social services or like certain kinds of resources right after World War II like, um, yeah, I was really struck by how people had really built their own institutions here and like that, like the JASC was started as like a social service organization for that reason. And that like, you know, like there were like Japanese American, like, you know, sports leagues and, um, just that like the community had sort of organized itself in this particular way because like, they had to, um, and that, yeah. And that, like, you know, that that' ; s sort of the origins of the community here. And so I think like, I felt definitely this sense of like, like, oh, like, you know, like people who are yonsei here actually have a sense of connection, to like this history, not only on the personal like family level of like, oh, like this is a thing that happened to my grandparents, but on a bigger like community level, which like I had never really experienced that before. Um, and umm I think too, I was struck by like...I don' ; t know. Yeah, I think it' ; s just like, because I didn' ; t have close nikkei friends for most of my life, the way that I kind of thought about the interment was sort of like, oh, you know, like it wasn' ; t that big of a deal. Like it' ; s not like these were like death camps, you know, it' ; s not like, and so yeah, like I kinda, I kinda had just taken on this narrative that it was like, that it wasn' ; t that significant. Um, and I think, yeah, like, it was important for me to like be around other, like, people who are yonsei who like did see it as really significant and who did really care about like this history and like had thought a lot about like how it had impacted their families. Um, and yeah, and that was just like, yeah, I mean it felt like I was like gaining some perspective or gaining some piece of like my personal history that I didn' ; t even have access to through my own family. Um, because of how they like talked or didn' ; t talk about it. Um, and yeah, and I think like I' ; ve been definitely thinking a lot about how, like, how quickly like targets change in like white supremacy and racism in this country. And like, I think Japanese Americans are such an interesting example of that because you know, like we went from being like incarcerated in mass during World War II, to being like lifted up as like, you know, thee like sort of token example of, you know, upward mobility and like assimilation and like. Right? And that has had like really, you know, like in terms of like the material reality, it' ; s like, yeah, like that has been the experience of a lot of like Japanese Americans. Um, and I think, I think it' ; s just like, it' ; s telling like how, I don' ; t know, like...I think, well, I guess there' ; s a couple of things. One is that I, I think that that still has like a lot of like sort of like emotional and like spiritual and psychic cost to like the fracturing of like community and identity and like how like I was actually talking to someone I know recently who, um, whose family was resettled to Chicago after World War II and they grew up in like a really small town somewhere on the East Coast, but in like a rural small town in the East Coast where, and it was like, it was specifically because like her grandmother had been sitting in some community meeting in Chicago at some point and they were basically like, look like we shouldn' ; t, like, we should try to disperse because if we' ; re all here together, like we' ; re a target. And so that was why like her family ended up in this like tiny town on the East Coast, like completely like isolated from anyway, Japanese American community. Um, and so yeah, like it' ; s just like interesting to be in this community of like people who like did stay and who liked did kind of preserve this community when, you know, so much of the consequences of the impact of World War II was that like, you know, that there used to be these really like strong thriving Japanese American communities on the West Coast and they were like really like broken up and um, and like, yeah, like fractured as a result, of the War. AT: And when did you come to Chicago and first start connecting with the Japanese American community here? AW: Um, it was in 2015. Yeah, I moved here in the summer of 2015. So it was about two years ago and I didn' ; t. Yeah, I mean I went to a couple of things when I first moved here. I think I went to like one of the festivals at the JASC or something and I felt like both this deep sense of like, whoa, like I really wanted it. Like I really, I felt really like moved to be in a space where there was such a strong sense of community around being like Japanese American or like being nikkei and at the same time, and like this like intergenerational community and like, you know, just all this stuff that I had never had. And at the same time, like I felt this deep sense of like, like these people all like grew up here, you know, like it just, I really felt like an outsider to the community but like really wanted to have some kind of community around it. Um, but I mean it was really through, I think like I started going to some of the events with Next Generation Nikkei, which is like a group of um, uh, you know, like primarily like yonsei, and like younger generation nikkei people. And, um, I think, yeah, I was really struck by the work that was being done through the JACL with the Kansha project of like, bringing like, you know, young like Japanese Americans to do a pilgrimage to the camps and to like learn some of the history. Um, and, um, and it seemed like a lot of community had been built among our generation through doing that kind of work. Um, and then, yeah, and then I met also like Kenji there who works with the JACL who, um, was helping to organize like some kind of summit for people to talk about. Like, you know, our relationship as Japanese Americans or like as Asian Americans to kind of, um, like movements for Black lives and how to be in solidarity with, um, with like Black Lives Matter. And so I think just like seeing people like making connections to how, like, knowing our history is like an important part of like identity and community. Like, as yonsei. And then like connecting that to, um, the kind of, you know, like what racism looks like now in the U.S. and like what, you know, what movements we want to be like in support of or aligned with and like what are like our role is and, in like supporting that. Um, I think yeah, like that was really what, you know, like that felt really important to me and I wanted to like be in community with people who were thinking about that. AT: To answer your own that, that question. Um, what do you think, umm, what do you think is the role of the Japanese American community and some of the current movements and any issues that are happening? What do you...we' ; ll start there. AW: Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean I think like, I think a lot about the concept of like moving targets, you know, like, um, like that the way that like the model minority myth and like assimilation has been used. Um, and the way that, like, the fracturing of Japanese American communities and Japanese American identity has been used in order to like, basically it' ; s like people are either assimilated into or rejected from like, you know, like whiteness or like nationhood or citizenship or whatever based on what' ; s like politically convenient at the time. And so I think of like Irish and like Italian immigrant, like, you know, like European immigrant communities that were like really like not seen as white, um, for long periods of time in U.S. history. And it was really like in certain moments like when there was the threat of like some kind of unified, like um, you know, like working class movement between I think in like, I know in like New York and probably like other places too, there was like moments when there was a lot of like interracial, like working class organizing between these like European immigrant communities and like, you know, Puerto Ricans or like other people of color. Um, and it was in those moments where there' ; s the threat of that, that like there was a big push to like, assimilate and to basically sort of offer this bribe of like, you get to be part of whiteness if you can like turn your backs on, you know, this possibility of solidarity and this possibility of like having unity with people who like you see a common struggle with. And so I think like, yeah, with Japanese Americans to like, you know, like I think we' ; ve seen and with like Asian Americans more generally, like, you know, the stuff that we' ; ve seen with like, like Chinese Americans turning out to like rally and supported Peter Liang who was the police officer, the Chinese American police officer who like murdered Akai Gurley. Um, and seeing like how we kind of have this like fraught position now within like the racial hierarchy in the US. Um, I think it' ; s like, you know, we get to like, I think we just like have this opportunity to like make a choice about like, like when we like talk about our history, it' ; s like a reminder that like whatever we' ; re being offered in exchange for like assimilation, it' ; s like, yeah. Like there' ; s real like material survival attached to that and also like, you know, it' ; s, it' ; s like, I dunno just that like, like in the system that we live in, like, like everything that is like being used in order to like, ummm, in order to like divide people and like get people to invest in like a system that is ultimately like not gonna work for everybody is, is like a tactic. And, um, so yeah, I think it' ; s important to like for us to talk about like how, um, uh, sorry AT: You' ; re fine. AW: I' ; m like, uh all the way out here, but yeah, I mean basically just that yeah, it is important for us to like, you know, like continue speaking up about racism and about all the ways that like, especially like there is such a now that like, you know, like racism doesn' ; t really exist or like it doesn' ; t really exist in the same way that it used to. And like, it is a lot more like hidden in like institutions and in all of these ways that it like codes itself into, um, things that like aren' ; t as overt but like, like clearly are about racism. But like, it' ; s easy to, for it to like represent itself as not being about that. And so, yeah, I think it' ; s important for us to like, speak up about that and, um, you know, and to not like lose how our history connects us to people to like everyone who' ; s struggling against that. AT: Do you think that something like this, the incarceration experience of Japanese Americans, do you think something like this wouldn' ; t happen again? AW: Um, yeah, definitely. I mean, I don' ; t know. Like, I think what' ; s hard about like the society that we live in is that it' ; s really adaptive to like how, you know, it' ; s kind of like how Michelle Alexander talks about it in the new Jim Crow, how like, like, because of the Civil Rights Movement, like racism has had to kind of like code itself into institutions in ways where it can' ; t be like openly identified. And so like, I don' ; t know if it would happen like in quite the same way, but I feel like, yeah, I mean, we' ; re definitely, especially right now, like we' ; re seeing such a resurgence of like, um, you know, just like people feeling really emboldened to like openly express. They' ; re like, um, just like their racism and their desire for like a white nation. And, um, and I think it was really interesting. I was listening to this interview with, um, on Democracy, Democracy Now with this guy who like works for an organization that helps people like disengage from like extreme right wing groups. Like, you know, like Neo Nazis and stuff like that. And he was just talking and he was, he' ; s a former Neo Nazi. Um, he was Neo Nazi in the 80s and 90s and he got out and he was just talking about how like 30 years ago, they basically like actually came up with this strategy of like, look, we' ; re not going to be able to, like, we have all these supporters among sort of like, right, like lots of like the average like racist white American, but who are going to be like too scared to like openly join us with our like, you know, being like skinheads and being like openly Nazis or whatever being aligned with the Ku Klux Klan. And so we should like, you know, instead of shaving our heads, we should like put on suits and like, you know, go to college and we should like become police officers. And we should join the military and we should like become politicians and run for office. And like basically they actually like literally came up with a strategy of like we should put ourselves in institutions and he was saying like the world that we' ; re living in now, like this, like Trump' ; s America or whatever, is like literally like the realization of that, you know, of that plan that they came up with. Um, and yeah, so I just, I think like, absolutely like there' ; s tons of people in our government and in like the police force and in the military and our institutions that like would support something like that happening and you know, and there' ; s more and more sort of permission for people to be like open about those views. Um, so it does feel like we' ; re heading in the direction of like something like that happening. And also, at the same time, I think, you know, obviously there' ; s a lot of people who are going to be in resistance to that. I mean, one thing that really strikes me about World War II Japanese American incarceration. Like when I was walking around this gallery and looking at the pictures as I was like, you know, like what, like, I mean, yeah, it' ; s a really different historical moment, but just like we' ; re there, like, nobody that was like refusing to drive the buses are like nobody who was like blockading the streets or like, you know, just like, it seemed like there was so many opportunities for people to like refuse or to disrupt at least what was happening. And I just like, that' ; s like one thing that I would definitely is like now I feel like, you know, people are like much more committed or like have more tools around organizing that kind of disruption. Um, and so yeah, I would hope that like there would definitely be like lots and lots of resistance to things moving in that direction, but I don' ; t know. Yeah, I mean, that' ; s a weird moment that we live in and it' ; s hard to know like where we' ; re headed. AT: Um, as we wrap up there, I do want to kind of backtrack a little bit, um, because I, I' ; m just curious about where, like how you experienced internment in your education, in the ages, you know, um, where you' ; re learning about World War II. Then like how, how did that come up in the classroom? AW: I barely remember it. I think it was basically just sort of a footnote, you know, like I remember it was like three sentences in a textbook kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think there was ever like a unit on it or like any like concerted focus. It was just sort of like a side note. AT: Did you ever, do you remember reacting to that at all or just kind of like oh yeah? AW: You know, honestly, I think I had so deeply internalized this belief that it was insignificant that I, it didn' ; t strike me at all that it was a footnote. Yeah. AT: Well, I think we can be wrapping up, but is there, is there anything that I might' ; ve missed or that you' ; d want to add before we wrap up? AW: Not that I think they can think of. AT: Thank you so much for recording with us. AW: Thank you. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WatanabeAnne20170819.xml WatanabeAnne20170819.xml http://www.saitolincoln.com/omeka/collections/show/1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WatanabeAnne20170819.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Watanabe, Anne (8/19/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Anne Watanabe is a Japanese Canadian Yonsei and Shin-Issei born in the Midwest and raised on the East Coast and in Canada. She shares her experiences with intergenerational trauma and healing. Anne discusses the challenges of younger generations collecting their family stories. She talks about learning in her early 20s how silence and assimilation were a common part of the internment experience. Anne concludes with reflections on connecting the incarceration to other white supremacist projects such as the model minority myth. She also talks about understanding her family's story as part of a larger story and experience of the Japanese community in North America.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese--Canada--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945
Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945
Date
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2017-08-19
Format
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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fa33464510762e5f58794b7b1da03dad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Ueunten, JJ
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ashikawa, Lori
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Cultural Reclamation
Japanese American Identity
Topaz
Pasadena
Bay Area
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/31/2021 Ashikawa, Lori (3/31/2021) 1:22:51 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1950 Sansei Cultural Reclamation Japanese American Identity Topaz Pasadena Bay Area Ashikawa, Lori Ueunten, JJ video 1:|20(3)|33(7)|45(8)|59(2)|66(14)|75(14)|92(8)|100(14)|109(9)|119(6)|128(8)|140(4)|149(8)|159(2)|168(12)|179(3)|187(9)|195(14)|206(13)|214(7)|224(1)|233(9)|242(8)|251(11)|260(2)|269(8)|279(4)|288(1)|299(16)|307(8)|317(6)|329(7)|340(4)|349(4)|370(8)|381(2)|387(13)|396(5)|407(4)|418(9)|427(14)|436(14)|449(2)|459(11)|467(14)|476(8)|486(9)|497(5)|507(1)|516(14)|525(16)|533(11)|544(1)|558(8)|565(13)|573(7)|582(13)|592(8)|601(13)|610(8)|620(6)|627(12)|634(9)|642(7)|648(10)|658(11)|668(13)|677(2)|686(10)|697(2)|711(2)|720(12)|728(4)|737(4)|745(6)|756(2)|765(13)|776(1)|792(7)|801(4)|819(10)|834(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/553118339/0acb452f53 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553118339" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Lori Ashikawa is a sansei born in Oakland, California and raised in Southern California. Being raised by a well-educated mother who experienced incarceration in her young adulthood, Lori grew up in an environment that encouraged assimilation both from internal familial pressure and societal pressure, and thus was separate from any Japanese American or Asian American identity. A musician, Lori moved to Chicago in 1990, when her partner got a job working for the Chicago Symphony, and being an only child, Lori’s mother followed her to Chicago. In looking for ways for her mother to have a community, Lori found JASC. In addition to finding a way for her mother to be involved in the JA community, for the first time, Lori found herself drawn to experiencing aspects of Japanese culture, including music and language. Over the years, Lori has learned more about her Japanese American identity and Japanese ancestry and heritage, visiting relatives in Japan, and remaining active in the community in Chicago. JJ Ueunten (JJU): Today is March 31st, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N. Clark St. in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Lori Ashikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. What is your full name? Lori Ashikawa (LA): Lori Patricia Ashikawa. JJU: And what is your year of birth? LA: 1957. JJU: And where were you born? LA: I was born in Oakland, California. JJU: And when did your family first come to the US? LA: My grandfather first came and it would have been in the early 1900s. So it would have been, yeah I' ; m not really sure, sometime between 1900 and when the Gentlemen' ; s Agreement started. So he was born in 1880-something I think. JJU: And where did he settle in the US? Oh, where did he settle? LA: Oh ,so he moved to the San Francisco Bay area and I think he settled right away in the East Bay. So the San Leandro, Hayward area. JJU: And do you know what motivated him to go to the US? Like come to the US? LA: I don' ; t really know and actually I was going to, I have a family tree that I' ; ve kind of put together over the years. I was gonna try to dig that up but I forgot. I know he wasn' ; t the oldest in the family, so I' ; m assuming he came for more opportunity? But that' ; s a really good question, I don' ; t know. JJU: And do you know what kind of work he did? LA: So what I think, I think he finished his schooling in Japan, and then came to the US in his early 20s, and went into the nursery business. So he was part of the early California flower market. JJU: And then, did you have other family that came from Japan after? LA: So after my grandfather came, he started up the business in the flower market and then his bride came over later. So I' ; m assuming that she must have come after the Gentlemen' ; s Agreement when they were allowing spouses to come into the country. And so wha-what were you asking? So-- JJU: Oh, i-- just if other people came after? LA: Oh okay, so there were no other family members from his side of the family, or my grandmother' ; s side of the family, so they were the only people who immigrated. JJU: And have you had heard like kind of any other stories or things that you want to share about kind of their pre-WWII life? LA: Well I' ; ve learned a lot about their-- both families just i-in more recent years so I know, I know a lot more about my grandmother' ; s family than I do about my grandfather' ; s family but I' ; ve tracked down all the relatives. I...I don' ; t know a whole lot about, yeah what their lives were like in Japan, those two specifically. But there have been all kinds of stories that have been passed down about the family. I' ; ve been to my grandmother' ; s family compound which is in--both my grandparents, grandfather and grandmother, came from Gunma-ken. So they actually...I' ; ve been to the family compound of my grandmother' ; s side, which is-- her maiden name was Sakurai. And the person living there I think it was something like the 21st generation? They were able to find a family tree that was written out, and had been hidden somewhere in the house. And it had the line going all the way back to the 1600s I think. Well, the Edo period. So they had a, my grandmother had a very large family. I think there were eight or nine children and a few of them died along the way as children. But all of those branches of family are still there, and they all have offspring going down to you know what would be like my-- if I had grandchildren. But it' ; s really interesting, the family compound that my grandmother' ; s family lived at had, they had their own cemetery area there and they also had a storehouse that was full of treasures. So there are all these stories, and I don' ; t know if any of them are true about them somehow having some kind of connection to the emperor. [laughs] But it' ; s like, family legend. JJU: Probably later I might ask a little bit more about you visiting LA: Okay JJU: And like connecting with your family. But I' ; m gonna have to ask, when and where was your family incarcerated? LA: So my mother' ; s family was incarcerated at Topaz in Utah. And it would have been right at the time everyone left the Bay Area. JJU: And then, is, is that the only part of your family that was...is that the only part of your family that was incarcerated? LA: Well my father was born in Hawaii, and my mother was born in Oakland. So since my father was born in Hawaii, I don' ; t think his family were incarcerated. But he did enlist in the army, and he was in the...I guess in the...I think he did translation work? He went to Minnesota and did boot camp and all of that in Minnesota. So that it was- I guess the intelligence unit. And he kept the diary which I still have, it' ; s a bunch of photographs. And I didn' ; t, I should have brought it but I didn' ; t bring it. And there are pictures of him and--training in Minnesota which is really interesting because it' ; s just a few Japanese American guys and then lots of Caucasians and nurses that he was friends with. And...and then there' ; s pictures of him goin-- flying over Italy and then later flying over Hiroshima after it had been bombed. So I' ; m not really sure why he went to Japan at that point, if it was after the war. But he told me that as part of his uh- part of being enlisted like, that they were able to go and take treasures from Japan, and so I have a bayonet with a sword on it, and it' ; s in the closet. (laughs) So it' ; s, it' ; s a very odd kind of relationship. The fact that my father never went to camp and my mother did go to camp. JJU: I' ; m now curious about like, did your father' ; s family come from...did your father' ; s family come from Japan then to Hawaii originally? LA: Yes, yeah so my, my grandmother on my father' ; s side had some kind of plantation? I think she grew tobacco, and then later they, they switched what they were growing there. I think they even--well I' ; m not really sure, I mean I visited once when I was five, but actually I' ; m--I' ; m estranged from my father, so I haven' ; t really had the chance to speak to him for the last 50 years really. So, yeah I don' ; t really know a lot about his side of the family. JJU: Do you know how old your mother was when the incarceration happened? LA: She had...she was somewhere in the middle of her college years so she was a student at UC Berkeley, and she was getting a degree in social welfare. And I' ; m not exactly sure if she completed--if she completed the degree after, or if she was in that group of students who were allowed to graduate early. Because I think that if you had just a year left they were able to s-speed you up and somehow get-- get your degree to you. So she-- she got a bachelor' ; s degree but I don' ; t think she had actually formally finished. So yeah, so that would have meant that she would have been 20, 21 something like that. JJU: Did your mom or anyone in your family share about their experiences, or any stories or reflections about the incarceration? LA: No, not until after reparations so-- and I' ; ve heard that that' ; s pretty common. So, the first time that I heard anything about the camps was when I was maybe in 3rd or 4th grade and there was a neighbor up the street, Mr. Watson, he was British. And he and his wife were very nice and they gave--they gave full sized candy bars at Halloween. So I think I must have been trying to schmooze up to them because I think I stopped there on my way home from-- from elementary school which was just up the street so I could walk to school. And I remember going into their backyard, and Mr. Watson saying to me " ; Oh it' ; s really too bad what- what happened to your family during the war." ; And I didn' ; t know- well for one thing I didn' ; t know that there had been a war or I wasn' ; t--I was really vaguely aware of World War II. And so I asked him " ; Well what do you- what are you talking about or what do you mean?" ; and he said " ; Oh yeah well the US government put your family into camps during World War II to protect them." ; And so I ran home to my mom and I was like " ; What' ; s this about?" ; and s-she didn' ; t really give me a satisfactory answer so I was really under the impression that my family had done something wrong and just been in jail. And then I didn' ; t hear anything more--I think there-- in high school, maybe one of the US history textbooks had a little blurb about the camps but it really was-- I can even remember what it looked like here' ; s the textbook, here' ; s the regular text, and then up in the corner was a little tiny box that was like one of those sidebar things and it was a picture of the barracks and it just said you know " ; In 1941 Japanese Americans were interned at camps across the US" ; or something and that was it. So that gave me a little bit more knowledge about it, but it wasn' ; t really until reparations that my mother told any personal stories. I mean I think I...I gleaned bits of knowledge from stuff that I read but nothing personal. JJU: Do you wanna maybe talk a little bit about reparations and then your, your mother sharing a little bit after that and how that happened? LA: Yeah, so I remember I-I guess she started like, there was kind of a buzz in the Japanese American community and people started talking about what was happening. And since I was just involved- wrapped up in my own life I didn' ; t really pay attention, but my mom started cutting articles out of the newspaper, and so I kind of peripherally knew about it. And then when the actual reparations was passed and Reagan signed it, I remember like my mom being really excited. And we went, we used to go visit the relatives up in the San Francisco Bay area at all the holidays. So we would go at Easter and at Christmas usually. Then I remember going up and one of my relatives who usually never really talked about anything personal I mean he was like really good at making jokes and stuff. I remember sitting in, in the living room and hearing him talk about- about reparations and all the adults getting really, really serious and really emotional that they could finally talk about something that they had just kind of squirreled away and you know, swept under the rug. So that was the first time that people really started t-to talk. JJU: Do you remember like some of the things that were shared? Either in that kind of, in that room or after? LA: Well my mom, then she started telling stories about what happened in those days. So she talked about how their family went to Tanforan to the horses stalls, and she talked about how bad it smelled because the horses stalls had just been whitewashed over, and how she could still see the hay there. And then she talked about when they finally went out to Topaz and were getting situated in those barracks and how dusty it was, and dirty. And she mostly talked about how angry she was all the time, and how she just really felt it was so unjust what was happening, and since she was in college, I think she was already pretty involved in the world outside of family life. So she said to get away from the family, she would go to the furthest part of the camp, I guess there was one, lone, tree and she would sit under that tree just to be alone and be away from everyone. But she was living in-- so she had three older brothers and her mom, and they all lived together. Her dad had passed away when she was about 13 years-old so basically it was just her mom being in charge of everything, and then her older brothers also since she was the baby of the family. And then a lot of other stories kinda came out later after I went to a reunion, a camp reunion with her in the 90s. And I think seeing, seeing a lot of people that she had known in the camp, kind of brought back a lot, a lot more memories for her. But right after the whole stuff about the reparations came out I think that was pretty much what she talked about. JJU: I' ; m curious like, how was it for you to kind of finally hear your family or your mom talk about these things, after like having, not even heard about it, and how did that change or affect you? LA: Well growing up I was-- I pretty much grew up in a really white neighborhood in Pasadena, CA. So in my elementary school, I think there were only a few Asian kids like maybe two Japanese American kids in my grade, and there was like one African American kid and everyone else was white. Oh, and maybe one little Hispanic girl and that was it! So it was yeah, very white community, and growing up I didn' ; t really have any Japanese American friends except I did have one best friend in first grade, Naomi Uchida. And I didn' ; t, I don' ; t even think I knew she was Japanese American but she was small like me and I really liked her, and we hung out together and did everything together but then my teacher said, pulled us aside and said " ; You can' ; t be friends anymore, because you have to integrate." ; So I wasn' ; t friends with her anymore after that, and I mostly hung out with white kids then all the way up through high school. And I didn' ; t have any real Japanese American self-identity. We belonged to a Japanese American church that was... kind of far it was maybe like 8, 8 or 9 miles away so the kids who went to that church went to different schools. So I didn' ; t really have any friends at church, and I thought the kids were all snobby, especially the Japanese American girls. They were really clique-ish, and I didn' ; t have anything in common with them I thought. So the kids I hung out with in high school were all, all white as I said and all really politically active. ' ; Cause our school, because of Brown versus Board of Education we had this whole busing thing going in Pasadena and we were all really involved in what was happening with the school board, and you know we were trying to boycott standardized tests because they were racist. And we' ; re doing all this stuff and at the same time, oh and the Vietnam War was going on, but I had no Japanese American identity or self knowledge! And I didn' ; t really think how any of that would be connected with what had happened with the camps. I mean I think I was like really peripherally aware of what had happened during World War II, and I remember in high school I had these great teachers but no one really talked about the Japanese Americans-- so I, consequently I always thought that I was white. And one day this teacher who was not my teacher, Rich Miyagawa, he pulled me aside and he tried to politicize me. He gave me a book to read about Japanese American identity, and I can' ; t remember what the book was called. But-- Oh it was something about an American or...yeah I don' ; t remember, anyway. So I remember reading the book, and thinking " ; Well you know he has some interesting points" ; but I still just didn' ; t see how they really applied to me. So I just tucked that information away and, it all came flooding back later of course. (laughs) But yeah, it' ; s just interesting to be so disengaged from your community even though it' ; s not like I wasn' ; t politically aware. JJU: I' ; m curious about how that kind of, chang-how, how that changed and how you became aware, more aware of your Japanese American identity. LA: Well my mom--okay I didn' ; t have any Japanese American friends, but I did have my cousins in the San Francisco Bay Area. But they didn' ; t--okay, so (laughs) I had, what happened after the war is my mother' ; s three brothers, of them the oldest, Willie, he inherited the family' ; s nursery business. So he, as I' ; ve heard like a lot of issei transferred ownership to the-their kids so they could maintain ownership of their companies. And so my, my grandmother' ; s and grandfather' ; s nursery was part of the California flower market as I said before, and there was a tight knit group in San Lorenzo, which is one of the communities up there. It was like this San Lorenzo nursery...I have a whole book on the history of the California flower market. But anyway, so because of the way the isseis transferred their businesses to the nisei, my mom' ; s oldest brother took over the nursery and was running it with, with his younger brother Shigeru, and with my grandmother. So they kept the business going...and what was your question? Where was I going with that? Well about their community. Okay, so they were really involved, th-the branch of the family that went into the nursery business was really involved in the Japanese, Japanese American community in the East Bay. So they went to a Japanese American church, and they knew a lot of community people in that area. And one of the brothers though, went to Med school, and so I think that was a really big deal for the family to be able to come up with the money to send him to med school. And because of that, he didn' ; t have to go to the camps because he was already off on the East Coast going to school. And when, after the war ended that branch of the family went back to the Bay Area to live, they ended up settling in Marin County which was a pretty wealthy neighborhood across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. And as a kid, I always referred to that branch of the family as the city mice and the ones who lived in the East Bay as the country mice because they were so completely different to me as a kid. The city mice were basically white in my mind. Even though I think my aunt was really interested in Japan, and they had gone back a few times, they had sent money there, they, they were the ones who kept up the connections with Japan. And the family in the East Bay pretty much ran the nursery and we' ; re really, really JA and never went to Japan and never went anywhere besides the Bay Area. They never even went to Southern California for a long time. So it was a weird like a, kind of- almost like a rift between these two different kinds of Japanese American identity. The one that was really white and then the one that was really involved in community. And they even talk different like going and visiting, I realized that you know the East Bay community didn' ; t talk like anyone else I knew, they had their own sort of slang and when I started learning Japanese about 10 years ago, I realized like a lot of the things that they would say like they would say like my one of my cousin' ; s name is Chuckie or Charles. They' ; d say " ; Okay we' ; re gonna go to the store with Chuckie guys" ; and I realized or " ; We' ; re gonna go with-" ; you know their Aunt, " ; Auntie guys." ; I realized that was like the same as saying minna-san in Japanese. And there were all these like really clever things that they would say that were related actually to the Japanese language just because of living in the community. And I would never hear that from the city mice. So I, yeah so then back in Pasadena where I was living, tha--the kids who went to my church then they were like a whole ' ; nother group of Japanese American culture that I didn' ; t really understand or have connection to. JJU: I' ; m sorry if you already said this, but like how did your family end up in Pasadena versus like the East Bay area, Marin county? LA: So after the war, I know a lot of Japanese people weren' ; t allowed to go back to their communities right away. But the way my mom told the story was that she didn' ; t want to go back. She was, she just wanted to sort of go out and see the world, so she ended up going to Detroit. And she met my dad who was at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. He was studying to- he ended up getting his PhD in, in Biophysics. So she met him there and she was living in a YWCA. In fact, I have a picture. So one of my grandparents' ; neighbors was Toshio Mori. And they-he was a good family friend and so... Actually, one of the stories in here is the " ; All American Girl" ; and my mom swears that that' ; s about her. Because Toshio Mori and his brother I guess would walk past her house everyday and she' ; d be sitting on the steps, and that' ; s what this story " ; The American Girl" ; is about. And then here' ; s the inscription from Toshio Mori, that says, " ; To Mrs. K Nieda, My close friend and neighbor, who, next to my mother, gave me encouragement since childhood days." ; and it' ; s signed March 5th, 1949, San Leandro. But anyway there' ; s a picture here and I don' ; t know what this-this is what my mom would do. She would have newspaper clippings and then she would just like fold ' ; em all which way, and oh wait this is the wrong clipping! (laughs) Okay, this is just the family of Toshio Mori looking at the book. I thought that this was going to be the picture of my mom in the YWCA in Detroit. So that must be folded up in another book somewhere. So ba-backtracking, my-- JJU: Did you want to talk a little bit about, you know, her experience at the YWCA, or Detroit? LA: Yeah so okay, that was supposed to be the YWCA. So she lived in the YWCA, and she met my dad in Detroit and actually the city mice, my aunt from that wing of the family, also went to that area. I guess she had been planning to go to school in New York, she wanted to go into fashion design. And they wouldn' ; t let her go to New York because of the-some kind of quota, so she had--she ended up going somewhere in Michigan I think also. And then my mom after meeting my dad there, then they moved back eventually to the Bay Area and they got married and they settled in- I guess they were living in Albany, which is right next to Berkeley. And that' ; s when I was born so I lived in Albany. And then my dad got a job at USC, USC what was it called, I think it was like the County Medical Center that was connected to University of Southern California. And so that' ; s why they moved to Pasadena. JJU: Just, just ' ; cause like we' ; re in the Midwest I' ; m curious if there' ; s anything else you want to share about like, your mom or your parents' ; time like in Detroit? LA: You know, I don' ; t know a whole lot about that except that, lots of our family friends in Pasadena had some kind of connection to the Midwest. So it must have been because they went there after the war. So I think my parents were introduced by someone who went to Ann Arbor and ended up in Pasadena, and they kind of became sort of my mom' ; s close family friends and I called them auntie and uncle even though they weren' ; t related. But they were, they were kind of like the only connection I had to the Japanese American community besides my relatives. So their families I kind of knew them, but not- I didn' ; t play with them as a-well I did I guess. When my parents would visit, or my mom would visit, then I would play with the kids. Yeah, and that, but that' ; s about all--I keep meeting people actually from the Midwest which is interesting. So there must have been a large number of Japanese Americans who ended up in the Great Lakes region. JJU: Yeah, my understanding is that you couldn' ; t go back to the coast if you wanted to leave before the war was over or something like that? LA: If you--? JJU: Oh I just...I I think like people couldn' ; t go back to the coast if they wanted to leave- LA: OH Right. (nods) JJU: Before the war was over. Maybe there was like jobs or stuff here. LA: Yeah because actually another friend of my mom' ; s in LA, she had also been near, kind of near Ann Arbor. And I think she ended up staying there but she would come and visit in the Los Angeles area because she had some other relatives there. JJU: And so your mom went directly from Topaz to Michigan? LA: I think so. Yeah I don' ; t know, an-and I' ; m not really clear on what happened to their property and what it was like when they went back. I mean I know that they had neighbors who took care of their nursery so they, they didn' ; t lose everything. They were able to, to get back on their feet and I think the American friends helped also. But I' ; m not sure if my grandmother went right back to the Bay Area and the kids dispersed? ' ; Cause I never really heard of the, the two brothers who were running the nursery, I never heard stories of them being anywhere else. So I' ; m not sure if they were allowed to go back. JJU: I know you talked a little bit about your family opening up a little bit more about talking about their wartime experiences during...But after reparations, I guess I' ; m wondering if you see kind of like a different kind of willingness to talk about it like in different generations of the family? LA: No, not really, which is kind of interesting. I know how-- I almost feel like the nisei wanted to talk more about it than the sansei did but maybe that' ; s my family. I know that the-- none of my relatives, none of my cousins, so my, my age group seemed really very interested in Japan except for me. And I didn' ; t really become interested in Japan, and I know you' ; re talking about the whole incarceration thing. But I think it' ; s connected, to know about family history. I-I just didn' ; t--it didn' ; t really seem like people were that interested. It' ; s like they wanted to just be part of American life. And after reparations, our parents really wanted to talk about it. And so when I went to one of the reunions, the camp reunion, I was the only kid who went which is, that' ; s really weird! Because all my-my aunt, city mouse aunt, she went and, but none of her kids went, she had three daughters who were my cousins. And then on the country mice side, my mom went, but her brother didn' ; t go, her older brother had died when he was fairly young. And then none of their kids went! But they were more involved in actual real Japanese American life than I was, but I went to the reunion. So that is really interesting that--and I think it' ; s, it' ; s probably different now like I think after the sansei, I think the yonsei are much more connected with history. JJU: Like your cousins' ; children? LA: Well my friends' ; children. I don' ; t know, my cousins' ; children aren' ; t particularly interested either so maybe it' ; s just a family trait! (laughs) JJU: Yeah, I' ; m curious about you connecting to your family history in Japan and how that kind of came about and you became interested in that after kind of growing up without a strong sense of Japanese identity. LA: Well, so I' ; m an only child so when I moved to Chicago in 1990 my--I left my mom alone in Pasadena, and there were no other relatives down there they were all still up in the Bay Area. So there was always this question of should she go up to the Bay Area where she has relatives? But they were just mostly nieces and nephews, and then, and one brother who was still alive. Or should she come out to Chicago? So we decided that she should come to Chicago even though the weather was completely different and she didn' ; t know anyone out here except for me. But she moved out in 2000? Or was it 2001? Somewhere right around that and she ended up living just a short like, three blocks away from us and so...but right before she came, I had been out here about 10 years already and I thought she' ; s going to need to have friends. So I saw a group of Japanese-looking people walking by the lake and I like, like went and talked to one of them, and found out they had a walking group, and that' ; s how I found out about the JASC. So I thought, " ; Wow, she can make friends at the JASC" ; , so that' ; s how I started getting interested actually in Japanese Americans. ' ; Cause when I found out what kinds of programs they had here, yeah it was just--it was to find a community for her and by doing that I kind of found a community for myself. Which is really weird when you think I' ; d been here for 10 years and I didn' ; t even know that there were Japanese Americans living in Chicago. I mean I thought that there were just hardly any Asians at all. And most of my friends that I met when I came here, didn' ; t know anything about Japanese Americans and I had to always explain where I' ; d grown up, and it was just so different than being in California. So that' ; s how I got interested, just by being a surrogate for her. JJU: And what brought you up to Chicago originally? LA: Okay so I' ; m a musician, I' ; m a violinist. And I lived in a house full of musician friends in Venice, CA. And one of the musicians who moved in eventually became my husband, but at that time he was my boyfriend, so he, he auditioned and he was able to get a job with the Chicago Symphony. So I moved out to follow him and then we got married after I moved out like a year later. So yeah I didn' ; t really know anything about the Midwest, and I didn' ; t really you know I didn' ; t even know that Chicago was near where my dad and mom had met ' ; cause I just didn' ; t have a concept geographically of the Midwest. JJU: And was it after kind of finding some Japanese American community here that you started looking into like your own family history in Japan more? LA: So my mom, my mom had gone to Japan when she was really young like three or something. She didn' ; t really remember anything about it. And then, but my grandmother did go back periodically. So I think my mother, well so it was the city mice who actually were maintaining connection with all the Japanese relatives. And so my aunt in Tiburon would invite relatives to come over from Japan and then they would always go to--they would do Northern California, San Francisco, and then as far part of their sightseeing family visit thing they would go to Southern California and then they would stay with us and they would do Los Angeles and that whole part of it. And so because of those connections my mom knew a lot of the relatives in Japan. And from her, mostly from her mother' ; s side ' ; cause that was a bigger family anyway. And so my mom went to Japan for the first time in 1986 with my aunt and they traveled and they went to all the different relatives that had come to California and they made those connections so I think my mom, she was getting more and more interested in it. And actually, one of my mother' ; s uncles had come to the United States and studied horticulture with my grandfather and then sort of taken what he learned from my grandfather back to Japan and used that knowledge there. So there was always this kind of like feeling like oh we' ; ve gotten so much from you Californians and then the Californians were getting a lot from the, the relatives in Japan so there was kind of like a mutual respect there. And so my mom kind of, she knew about these connections, and then I think after-- so after she went to Japan for the first time in ' ; 86 she started kind of reaching out to those relatives more and writing letters then she wanted to take me so I went for the first time in 1996--or 1995. Then I met, I met some of the relatives that I had met as a child growing up. And then, then it' ; s interesting then after, after my mom got involved with the JASC, I came to a judo performance over there, and the reason I came to the performance was--even though I didn' ; t know anything about judo or any of the Japanese martial arts, a friend of mine who' ; s a musician, a Caucasian guy, his son was doing judo over there. And so he invited me to come and watch his kid do judo. So I went and they had this whole thing set up and I think they probably still do it where they had kind of a little ceremonial thing at the beginning and they had the tape recorder there and they put the tape in and they pressed the button and then this Japanese music came on and then then they turned it off like right in the middle of a phrase. And I was so mad I was thinking " ; This is so stupid why, why are you using recorded music you should use live music, aren' ; t there any live Japanese musicians in town?" ; And then right after that Tatsu, I just happened to see that he advertised a workshop for shamisen so I started studying shamisen, and then I got interested, I thought well if I' ; m gonna study shamisen I should learn Japanese language, and JASC was offering Japanese language classes. So I started a beginning class, and then, and then I started getting more interested in the actual culture. It' ; s a little, it' ; s a little weird ' ; cause it is about your life it' ; s not just about the subject matter it' ; s all connected. JJU: I think going a little bit back to maybe some of the kind of possible intergenerational effects of wartime experiences-- Are there any like behavioral patterns that you see in yourself or other people in your family that you think could be connected to like, their wartime experiences? LA: I was thinking about this question, and it' ; s kind of hard for me to divide what is sort of a cultural Japanese American trait or a trait that' ; s been passed down culturally. You know they always say that the Japanese Americans in Los Angeles are basically a time capsule of the Meiji era because time froze when they went to Los Angeles with their traditions. And so ther--there' ; s like certain things that I think are really ingrained behavior-wise that come from Japan. And then layer on that the camp experience and it' ; s, it' ; s hard for me to separate it out. Except that I did have a revelation a number of years ago. When I when I first moved to Chicago, I was playing in a string quartet with some musicians and one of them had survived, he was like an older gentleman, he had survived the Holocaust. He' ; d been in a camp as a child. And then it turned out that the pianist, who was our guest pianist playing with our quartet. He, he was like a blonde hair blue eyed guy but it turned out he was half Filipino. So I don' ; t know where the blonde hair came from. But he had also survived trauma, his family had survived trauma. We were comparing notes, and I realized that there were a lot of personality traits that were similar and they were this thing of you know just thinking that catastrophe was just around the corner. Like everything that you did moving through life you did so carefully because you thought that something that you would do could trigger something bad happening and that was the first time I had ever thought about sort of generational trauma. ' ; Cause the pianist, I think it was his parents who had been in the Philippines and had... And it was probably, it was probably incurred through Japanese imperialism or something, their experience. But anyway, yeah so that is something maybe that came from camp that I could sort of see. And then the other thing, there' ; s sort of a rebelliousness that I see in my family like my mom was really rebellious but I' ; m not sure if that, if she was just that way to start with and it was enhanced by her camp experience? But she never wanted to do things the way everyone else did them, and she also was she was pretty much a feminist I think. And she kind of raised me that way. And then in my cousins I could see, what I' ; ve seen with a lot of sansei actually where they' ; re, they like go out of their way to be louder than everyone else it seems like. And I don' ; t know if that is either, part of trying to be as white as possible or if it' ; s because they were told by their parents to blend in after the camp and so they' ; re rebelling against that? ' ; Cause I know that there was a lot of pressure to conform and I think that' ; s, that' ; s partially why I never learned any Japanese arts or did language, even though other kids when I was growing up did do Japanese dance, and kendo and, and stuff but I never did. So I think my mom was really trying hard to raise me as white as possible and she did a really good job! (laughs) JJU: I guess besides being kind of like separated from Japanese culture-- Are there, are there things that you see in yourself that are kind of, you think might be related to either like camp experiences or, or like maybe, maybe even wartime experiences from your dad? LA: From--? JJU: Oh, from your dad? LA: Oh, well I think there' ; s like probably two different kinds of... kinds of reactions to life that you inherit. I mean some of it is when you know about what happened. So watching my mom' ; s response to the emotions coming out after reparations so there' ; s that, but then there' ; s also the kind of undercurrent you know whether it' ; s stifling the way you act or kind of changing the way you act or-- So wait, can you repeat the question again? JJU: Yeah, I' ; m just wondering... You talked about some of the patterns that you see in your family about what might be-- Might be kind of like a legacy from wartime experiences, and I was just wondering how you saw that in relation to yourself? LA: Hmm-- Yeah I can' ; t, it' ; s so hard to divide what' ; s... What came about after I learned about things and what, what was already there. Although I, I mean I guess you know anytime there' ; s like dysfunction in a family, the tendency is to want to ascribe that, the reason for that to some past hurt or trauma. So yeah there' ; s like a lot of secrecy there' ; s a lot of kind of weird shame there' ; s a lot of acting out in strange ways, but I don' ; t know if that would have been even without having the camp experience. I mean I think the biggest thing that I noticed was the whole repression thing of not acknowledging what had happened for so long and trying so hard to blend into society, that you as a group of people lose your identity. And yeah I can really see that like-- Just trying to ignore that whole aspect of your life and wanting to move on, and so that kind of affects how you move through life like you pick and choose and you sweep things under the rug if you don' ; t think it' ; s gonna further your, your career or be in your best interest. So yeah, definitely like white-washing your past I think is the biggest thing that I' ; ve noticed. JJU: Thanks for sharing that. I wanted to just briefly ask, like you' ; ve talked about going on like reunions, to like a camp reunion? Yeah, is there anything more that you' ; d like to kind of share about that experience? LA: Well that' ; s the first time that I had actually heard that... I don' ; t know if you' ; ve heard this, but I went to one of the panel discussions and they were talking about how there was actually a movement to have Japanese American women sterilized and that it almost passed according to the person who was speaking. And so that was really shocking ' ; cause I realized I wouldn' ; t have been born if they had actually done that. But I--I didn' ; t even really think about it and I mean when I think about it now, that it' ; s just like so similar to what happens you know when you wanna just... Well it' ; s genocide basically, you know when you want to wipe out a whole group of people because of some perceived defect. It' ; s more than just saying oh they' ; re a threat because they might be informers or something it' ; s wanting to wipe them out as a race! That' ; s really shocking. And then the other thing is I didn' ; t know about the 442nd so we went-- my mom and I went to a film that was about that and I remember my mom crying through the whole thing and I had never seen her cry in my whole life. Even though all these horrible things that happened to her while I was growing up, I mean my dad walked out when I was like 5 or something. We had adopted a little boy, so I had a... Well actually my, yeah I had a sister but she died of crib death seven years before I was born. And then when I was about 5, my parents adopted a brother, and they had him for like about a year and then they gave him back because they got divorced. So it' ; s like I had this little brother who I loved and took care of and then they took him away. And my mom never cried during that, then my dad left and never came back and never paid child support, my mom never cried. But when the 442nd movie was showing, that' ; s when she cried. And she said th--I mean she was so angry that these boys had gone off to fight and nothing came of it. They all--I mean so many of them died and the family was still stuck in the camp and they didn' ; t have any kind of dispensation from that. JJU: You know, I think-- Just hearing that, makes me feel like your mom had like a strong sense of when things are unjust. And I know you talked about like being kind of politically active even in high school. I wanted to know if you want to share a little bit about kind of your activism now, and how it is or is not related to your Japanese American identity. LA: Well going back to that teacher, who wasn' ; t my teacher in high school who politicized me about Japanese American things. I think I always, so I always knew that this kind of injust thing had happened to Japanese Americans, but at the same time I think it was really hard, you know how we always called it relocation camps? It was really hard to bring myself to say concentration camp because I knew what happened to the Jewish people in the Nazi camps, and I didn' ; t ever want it to sound like we had gone through anything like that kind of genocide. So ther--and then looking at what happened to black Americans with slavery, and you know and how they were still fighting oppression even now. It' ; s always been really hard for me to think that I should stand up for Japanese Americans especially ' ; cause Japanese Americans seemed so privileged economically, and they seem to have been allowed to kind of climb the ladder and achieve like middle class and upper middle class lifestyles. So yeah I' ; m still kind of... I' ; m still kind of grappling with the sort of hidden parts of what happened because of the camps. And especially after these attacks in Georgia last week, I mean I think I' ; m starting to finally understand you know, where I fit into this whole thing of oppression in the world. And I think it is, I mean I guess that is sort of a byproduct of the camps that our families didn' ; t talk about, the issues. And were just so busy trying to climb the ladder and get economic stability. And my aunt so the city mice aunt. They, when they moved into Tiburon as a doctor and his wife they weren' ; t allowed to join the, the yachting club because that was only allowed for white people. And they faced a lot of discrimination but they kind of just dug in their heels and said we' ; re going to stay here in this society and we' ; re going to make it. And they did that by having like economic stability but also by kind of blending in. Even though my aunt was really always interested in Japanese things, I think they still somehow were able to blend in or that' ; s what it looked like to me. And so, what I grew up with, thinking I was white, was seeing all these other sanseis-- sansei kids who didn' ; t seem really connected or aware politically of what was going on in the world and almost went, almost went too far to the right and became sort of republican. Didn' ; t speak out for other oppressed groups, didn' ; t seem to be interested in politics, and allowed things to happen in our country that hurt other, other minority groups. So I spent a lot of my adult life being angry at Japanese Americans ' ; cause it seemed like the only ones I met were the really uninvolved, or just kind of privileged, ignorant I guess. I don' ; t know how to describe it. So when I--you know, I kind of feel like now the next generation I can relate to that group more because they remind me more of the white activist kids that I grew up with when I was in high school. And they seem more aware of the connections and patterns that are happening in the world and they don' ; t seem so involved with the material things and I-- I' ; m sure that I' ; m just completely blind to like a whole other group of, of kids who are my own age but I just like lumped all Japanese Americans together. In fact, one of my--she didn' ; t go to my high school she went to the next high school but she was in Pasadena, and Pasadena' ; s not that big of a city. But she is that filmmaker, Renee Tajima. And I actually--they were family friends of ours, and I had no idea that she was an activist, I mean she made that film about Vincent Chin and I didn' ; t learn about that ' ; till way later and I remember thinking wow she could have been my friend and yet I' ; d like was so snobby because I just had this stereotype of Japanese American kids. Boy--both boys and girls. JJU: Do you wanna talk a little bit about like your activism now or anything like that? LA: Well it' ; s really nice to be able to, to relate to a group of people that you have historical background. And I guess I never, I never realized that that could be so comforting in a way. And I sort of understand, I remember people like right after George Floyd was murdered, I remember people saying oh you know be really careful with your black friends don' ; t burden them with questions about, what it' ; s--you know how you survived this oppression your whole life and all this stuff. And after those murders in Georgia, I became like hyper-aware that of who was not acknowledging that it had happened or who was acknowledging that it had happened and sort of the responsibility that I felt like a weariness of " ; Oh I' ; m going to have to explain why this is bad and where I fit into the picture." ; And so it' ; s kind of nice if, if you' ; re in with a group of Japanese Americans you kind of already sort of know what that history is and you don' ; t have to like go back and explain it and so it' ; s kind of like this realization, " ; Oh that' ; s what they meant" ; about how you know they were just, people were so tired of thinking about George Floyd thinking about Black Lives Matter marches, and their own personal lives being a black person. I can finally, I think I finally can empathize with that and know what it means. It' ; s not about, it' ; s not necessarily even about being angry about what you' ; ve been angry about your whole life, but it' ; s about, yeah just having to sort of carry that weight and move through the world with that. And so yeah that' ; s kind of what I' ; m thinking. And then the other thing is that this whole narrative that I' ; ve had my whole life about how I' ; m basically white, I can really see why people were so mad at me, some of my Japanese American friends when I would say that. Like I' ; ve had friends just look at me like they can' ; t even believe that these words came out of my mouth, and I know that it' ; s because of my upbringing and and then I was brought up in those particular circles and my neighborhood. But it' ; s also-- I can see now that maybe it' ; s, it' ; s kind of a betrayal. That it' ; s like almost like the epitome of white privilege that I am exhibiting as a Japanese American and maybe that' ; s what I' ; m so mad about when I' ; ve seen other sansei who kind of seem to--to me, seem to be ignoring issues maybe that' ; s like just a mirror to what I am myself ignoring. Like my own history, or thinking that I' ; m better than it somehow. So it' ; s really interesting, but it changes every day. JJU: For some reason when you were sharing that, like I kind of came back to when you shared about being told you can' ; t be friends with that other Japanese person. LA: Yeah. JJU: And I didn' ; t ask at the time when you first shared that, but like, do you remember how that experience was for you? LA: Oh, well it was terrible. It was like being told--but you know I was so like, into following the rules. Unless it, unless it was with my mom then I was into rebelling. (Laughs) But if it was an authority figure like, like a white teacher but they were-- all the teachers were white so that doesn' ; t... that' ; s not really a good argument. But anyway with an authority figure yeah I think I just said " ; Oh yeah she' ; s right I should, I should be integrating. I shouldn' ; t hang out with someone who looks like me." ; But it' ; s weird to think about that as like a second grader or first grader like how are you... ' ; Cause kids don' ; t even notice I mean I really was not aware of race at all until she put a big sticker on it. (laughs) And maybe that' ; s why I never had any Japanese friends after that, because it was kind of like " ; No, you should be integrating." ; And you know, and I just like recently I can really understand why some black groups don' ; t want to let white people in, or Asian people in, or-- because they need to preserve that kind of safe zone. I never knew about safe zones before, like and how important and how important that is to have. Well I' ; m, kind of one of the things I' ; ve been thinking about is the connection between the people that my mom knew in the Bay Area pre-war. So I was just saying to JJ off camera that the Korematsu' ; s were really, really close friends of my mom' ; s family. So, during that whole thing when, when he didn' ; t go to camp and was able to, you know protest in whatever way, why they were singling out people to go to camp, that must have made a big impression on her. And also when she was at UC Berkeley her--one of the people she worked with as, as a student was Andreas Papandreou who became Prime Minister of Greece and he was like the first socialist to be in the Greek government. And my mom also had a connection to the lawyer, Stephen Bingham, with--who is a lawyer for the Black Panthers so and--and also the other really close family friend of theirs was Yuri Kochiyama' ; s family and Yuri Kochiyama' ; s twin brother was a good friend of my mom. So she had all these connections with these really revolutionary things that were going on! And yet after the camp, I just don' ; t understand like why, she didn' ; t have like a Japanese identity. Like I mean she never cooked Japanese food, she cooked sashimi if you can cook sashimi, occasionally. But you know she was just really super like white an-and even like when she--so after my dad left, she got a job. She had just been a housewife after, after camp and after she got married. But she got a job, like a secretarial job and she hung out with sort of the outcasts at her workplace. Which were--so you know the hierarchy you have like the doctors, and then underneath that were the gay doctors, so those were her best friends because they were outcast. So the gay doctors, and then the the lab techs, and then the nurses, and then the secretarial staff which is what my mom was. So they used to party together all the time, but she didn' ; t, it was like that side of her and then there was the Japanese American families that seemed really conservative in Pasadena, and also my mom was an outcast ' ; cause she was a divorcee and so she didn' ; t really fit in. And it wasn' ; t till she got older that she started like reconnecting with her Japanese American-ness even though I mean she always had friends, but I guess she just never, she always felt like an outcast. So I wonder if that' ; s ' ; cause of that whole sort of conformity that a lot of JAs subscribe to after camp. JJU: Any, any other kind of things that you want to share? LA: Well yeah I guess the, the other thing is the whole model minority myth, and that I just feel like there are so many secrets in, in nisei families that they didn' ; t talk about because they were trying so hard to conform. And I mean they were just, you know like when there were suicides and things and no one would tell you it was a suicide they would just tell you oh someone just all of a sudden died, and never talk about it! I mean I still don' ; t know to this day, but I just had cousins who would suddenly disappear and I wouldn' ; t know why. I mean, I don' ; t know if it' ; s because the family felt so much shame and--so is it a Japanese thing, or is that because of conforming after you come out of camp? And then, yeah my father was in jail after, after camp just for a stupid business deals that he did I mean... but no one ever talked about that and you know he was, he lived on Skid Row he was bankrupt, even though he was highly educated. It' ; s just, this whole thing of shame. So is that a Japanese thing, or because you' ; re trying to conform and put this image on your family after camp? I mean it' ; s probably a combination of both but-- I don' ; t hear any of those stories. I mean people just like my gen, I don' ; t know maybe it' ; s different in the next generations. But my generation, they either say they don' ; t remember, or they never heard from their parents or they just don' ; t talk about stuff. JJU: Are you kind of like more willing to talk about stuff you think? LA: Than other people? JJU: Yeah. LA: Yeah maybe, but that' ; s ' ; cause I' ; m so white! (laughs) I don' ; t know. JJU: Well thank you, I know you brought some documents and stuff, is there anything else that you wanted to share or include in the interview? LA: Well let' ; s see, yeah there' ; s a lot of interesting history about the family in Japan, but I guess that' ; s not really that pertinent necessarily. My grandmother did... She went to get her-- she got citizenship in the 60s I think. Or maybe it was even later? And she wrote a poem about becoming a citizen, which I think, I could never understand how she could be so... Sort of feel patriotic after going through the whole war experience. Let me see if I can find it. Oh okay, so she belonged to a, a club so lots of niseis--or I mean--lots of isseis belong to sort of poetry clubs. And I have a bunch of her poetry, but I can' ; t read it, it' ; s all in kanji and, anyway, so here' ; s a translation of one of hers. So it' ; s: Going steadily to study English Even through the rain at night I thus attained late in life, American citizenship Kiyoko Nieda San Leandro, California Yeah, so she was really proud of, of getting her citizenship. Why? I don' ; t understand. I guess she was happy to be a Californian. JJU: Yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t have any other kind of questions right now. So if you don' ; t have anything else that you wanted to share... LA: Yeah I ca--I mean I don' ; t know if there' ; s anything... I think we pretty much-- JJU: Thank you for how much you' ; ve shared. LA: Oh, (laughs) I hope I didn' ; t share too much. JJU: Not on our end. (laughs) LA: Yeah it' ; s kind of, I' ; m sure like, I should--I wish I could find that teacher from high school and find out what happened to him, because I wonder if he was just doing that all the time, reaching out to kids he thought needed to be politicized. (laughs) Or you know, or maybe I just looked so clueless that I just, you know and he just felt like if, if no one told me I was Japanese I would never know. I would go through my whole life without knowing. I don' ; t know, he really I mean really felt like it was his mission to enlighten me that way. JJU: Well you figured it out eventually! (laughs) LA: I eventually figured it out! (laughs) Well I mean--they say it takes like, you know a lot of people don' ; t become interested in their history or their lineage until they' ; re in their 50s ' ; cause you' ; re so busy with your life up to then... Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AshikawaLori20210331.xml AshikawaLori20210331.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1
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Ashikawa, Lori (3/31/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Lori Ashikawa is a sansei born in Oakland, California and raised in Southern California. Being raised by a well-educated mother who experienced incarceration in her young adulthood, Lori grew up in an environment that encouraged assimilation both from internal familial pressure and societal pressure, and thus was separate from any Japanese American or Asian American identity. A musician, Lori moved to Chicago in 1990, when her partner got a job working for the Chicago Symphony, and being an only child, Lori’s mother followed her to Chicago. In looking for ways for her mother to have a community, Lori found JASC. In addition to finding a way for her mother to be involved in the JA community, for the first time, Lori found herself drawn to experiencing aspects of Japanese culture, including music and language. Over the years, Lori has learned more about her Japanese American identity and Japanese ancestry and heritage, visiting relatives in Japan, and remaining active in the community in Chicago.
Subject
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Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1950
Date
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2021-03-31
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video
Series: Oral History Project
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Aragaki, June
Interview Keyword
Issei
Nisei
Stockton
Rohwer
Farmers
Inter-camp interaction
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Camp Shelby
Heart Mountain
Clark Street
Factory Work
Homeownership
Police Discrimination
Renting
Aiko
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/6/2018 Aragaki, June (9/6/2018) 1:09:52 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Issei Nisei Stockton Rohwer Farmers Inter-camp interaction 442nd Regimental Combat Team Camp Shelby Heart Mountain Clark Street Factory Work Homeownership Police Discrimination Renting Aiko Aragaki, June Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/600589117/7c6cb83938 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/600589117?h=7c6cb83938" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; June Aragaki is a Nisei born in 1921 in Stockton California. She speaks about growing up in rural California, where her parents started as migrant farmers and her siblings eventually ran a small restaurant. Her whole family was interned in Rohwer, and eventually ended up in Chicago. She speaks about being involved in the emerging Japanese Buddhist community, working in a variety of factories, and what life was like for her and her siblings trying to re-start their lives in the 1940s and 1950s. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada:00:00:15Okay. To start, can you just state your full name? June Aragaki:00:00:21My name? AT:00:00:21Yes, and you, you can look at me through out the conversation. JA:00:00:23It' ; s June Kimie Aragaki. Yeah, Mike told you. AT:00:00:31And if you want to stop at any point we can, we can do that. JA:00:00:34Okay. AT:00:00:36Um, okay. Uh, this is an interview with June Aragaki as part of the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago, Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on September 6th, 2018 at 11:26 AM uh, at Mrs. Aragaki' ; s residence. June Aragaki is being interviewed by Anna Takata of the Japanese American Service Committee. Um, so to, as we start, can you just tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? JA:00:01:11I was born in Walnut Grove, California 19, no I mean, 1921 AT:00:01:21What, and what' ; s your birthday? JA:00:01:238 20 21. AT:00:01:28Um, can you tell me a little bit about, um, your hometown, what it was like growing up there? JA:00:01:34Well, um, out there. It was just country, country and we, we did, oh, Oh. God. So My mother and father, they were all farmers, so they all knew what the only kind of work they were able to do was just go from one place to another, like a transit. Because they had no skill whatsoever. And um, we always traveled in, in a horse, drove a wagon that was our transportation at that time. AT:00:02:23And uh, do you know where your parents were originally from? JA:00:02:28Oh, I can' ; t say. My mother was from, uh, what was that? Japan, what' ; s the right, let' ; s see what was that? I tried think of that, Oh wait, I forgot what that province was. My father was from Japan too, from, uh, I, I don' ; t remember. AT:00:02:59Do you know when they came to the US? JA:00:03:03No that' ; s one thing I tried to find, I lost, uh, I lost my mother' ; s, uh, immigration, uh, paper to see what, what year she came was in anyways, in the nineteen, late or early 1920s, because the, both of them came and they landed up in Hawaii. Then from Hawaii, they came to the California. And just, we had all nothing but farm life and graduated from, well only good thing was that finally we were able to go to a farm that they gave sharecropping like 60% and 40%. And we stayed there for, how many years since I was in grammar school that was in, uh, let' ; s see, 19 well anyways, I graduated 19, grammar school, 1936. So we were on that farm for the longest time. AT:00:04:27What kind of, um, produce, what' ; s your, what kind of produce was, where your parents, JA:00:04:34Oh well, on the farm? Well, we had asparagus, pears and grew the seeds and peach seeds. And then summertime was a, ok, pear picking. And then after that they had to prune all the suckers of the pear trees and sprayed it. And my mother would help spray, but she became sick and then found out that she was allergic to this spray. So she was sick for a month because of the allergy. And during that time my brother was trying to clean it, clean this, uh, pump machine that allows the sprays to come out. He had fringed gloves on and it got tangled in the gears and he lost all four fingers. Well somehow he survived, and then after that grew up, he able to fix car. He turned out to be a good mechanic. AT:00:05:55And, and your mother, she recovered from the allergies? JA:00:06:00Yeah, no, she was fine after the, AT:00:06:01Just the spray. JA:00:06:03Pom dee, that every year that because of the spray she became allergic then after, I don' ; t know why, who decided that we were gonna leave the farm and go to Stockton, California. That was about 1938. AT:00:06:27Um, before we talk about Stockton. Um, do you have memories of long ago or what, what was that like for you as a child growing up on the farm there? JA:00:06:39Well, that' ; s all we know was, well, we went to school, the bus would pick us up. And I was just thinking, what was the grammar school name was Beaver. And I was thinking, I wonder if there was ever beavers there. Well, anyways, let' ; s see what else, Well, we used to go swimming in the Sacramento river. The Sacramento river flowed. Being kids, we were reckless, we' ; d jump off the wharf. And I said oh how scary it this, the jump of that high flight. I, I quit that after that. [laughs] Yeah. AT:00:07:24And uh, do you have siblings? Did you have siblings, brothers or sisters? JA:00:07:36At that time? Well there were seven of us. Four brothers and three sisters. Well that' ; s seven now, three. Three girls, four boys and three girls. AT:00:07:46And where were you in the birth order? Where were you in the birth order? Were you a middle child or, JA:00:07:54I' ; m the, yes. That' ; s right. See two brothers and then my sister and I and then my sister and another brother. So it' ; s like a middle. AT:00:08:09And um, let' ; s see. So, um, growing up on that farm, um, and going to school, were there other Japanese American families in that area? JA:00:08:27Oh, let' ; s see. There was one or two. And one Chinese that went to grammar school with that, we knew. All the, there was all mixed nationalities. AT:00:08:48And uh, did you do any other activities outside of school? JA:00:08:54Did you have to go to Japanese school or JA:00:08:56No, we tried. Yeah, that' ; s right. We tried going Japanese school. Uh, even at that [coughs] in Walnut Grove at that time they were segregated Japanese wa-, couldn' ; t go, being in school with the white kids. So, but then what else, AT:00:09:26And um, and how about as far as, um, like speaking Japanese or Japanese customs at home? Did you speak Japanese with your parents? JA:00:09:39Yeah, that' ; s what he spoke to me. That' ; s how I learned how to speak Japanese. Do you, have you learned? AT:00:09:45I unfortunately, I, can' ; t. JA:00:09:48Well anyway, I speak, they speak to me in Japanese, so, so we learn Japanese that way. My father and my mother and she would read Japanese stories to us, which was very interesting. And uh, well we go to school, then we went to church. The amount of, it was about three miles away or what? Almost to the Church. We' ; d go to Sunday school and we, they had Bon Odori There and Hana Matsuri. All those things that they have here. AT:00:10:33Um, what kind of church was that that your family went to? JA:00:10:38What? AT:00:10:38What kind of church? JA:00:10:40It was a Buddhist church! Yeah AT:00:10:41Buddhist? JA:00:10:41Yeah, they had a Buddhist church there and the little town of Walnut Grove the whole city, composed of Japanese family, a lot of Filipinos and Chinese. There was, the Chinese had their own sector. So it was a mixed, mixed town. AT:00:11:06And so, um, when your family moved to Stockton, uh, that must have been after you started high school? JA:00:11:17Okay. Yes, almost. Yeah cause I graduated in Stockton in 1940 so it was 1938 that we moved to Stockton and we decided to give up the farm and buy, buy this restaurant you know, fast food restaurant. So that' ; s what they decided you decide, or rather my brother and whatever . So we had this little uh, fast food, I don' ; t know how many stools, it was just stool, maybe 12, 16, I don' ; t know what. We called it TK cafe [laughs]. AT:00:11:58T K cafe. JA:00:12:01Yeah! AT:00:12:01What kind of foods did you serve there? JA:00:12:04Well, regular American food, but these are all transit worker that would come in to get food. But us, I would make lunch for them and they take, in a paper bag. We would make lunch. They would take that and then they will come back and they, would eat dinner. So morning was either hotcakes or pancakes which they were called, scrambled eggs, oatmeal. So rather American food. And lunch we made them sandwiches and whatever. AT:00:12:41Did you have a, a role? Did you have to help out at the restaurant? JA:00:12:45We all pitched in. We would all work together. AT:00:12:49So what were some of the things that you would have to do there? JA:00:12:52Well, mainly serve the food. Well, I didn' ; t know much. Did I do as much cooking? I don' ; t remember that. But every so often my sister would bake a cake, which there was a guy there named Philip, I think? He was very attracted to her, so she made this angel food cake and he loved it and other people got pieces of it. So... AT:00:13:28Um one thing that is, that' ; s also helpful for me is if, um, you can just go through the names of your, your parents and your siblings just so we' ; re able to, to refer to them later. So would you be able to tell me the names of your siblings? JA:00:13:44Yeah. AT:00:13:44In order? JA:00:13:46Yoshiro, or we call him Jerry. That' ; s the oldest. And the second one is Kiyoshi. AT:00:13:58Kiyoshi? JA:00:13:58Kiyoshi Yeah. Yes. Then Grace. My sister Grace. And then me, that, and then Doris, And Hiroshi. And Shig, Shigeo. AT:00:14:20Mmm. Did all of your siblings have a, a Japanese and an English name or American name? JA:00:14:27The wha? We all had a Japanese name. Then we' ; d, when we went to high school because the teacher' ; s going to pronounce our Japanese name. So we picked up the American name. AT:00:14:44And how about for you? Um, was June your American name that you chose? JA:00:14:50What is that? AT:00:14:50Was June the name that you? JA:00:14:53I selected, yes. AT:00:14:55And what, and why did you select June? JA:00:14:58I don' ; t know! It' ; s just it was easy to pick. Uh, my sister Doris, she picked that. Her Japanese name was Kikue, You know, they would have hard time trying to pronounce, Kikue. So it' ; s, a lot of people would make it sound like kick-away [laughs]. It' ; s, which just not very good. But all my brothers, they didn' ; t change their name. AT:00:15:27And uh, how about your parents? What were your parents' ; names? JA:00:15:31Hisano is my mother name. Ito, that' ; s her maiden name too. Kamejiro, Ito is my father' ; s name. So actually we were all Itos before! AT:00:15:47Hmm. Mmm. Okay. So your, your family moved to Stockton, you sold the farm and you invested in the TK Cafe JA:00:16:01We were there when the war broke out. AT:00:16:01Okay. JA:00:16:02So, in, that was 1941 so 1942 they have built the barracks and the Stockton race track and that was where we were temporary located. AT:00:16:22Uh huh. Before the war broke out. Um, well first of all, what was the name of the high school you went to? JA:00:16:32The what? AT:00:16:32The high school in Stockton. JA:00:16:35Stockton high school. AT:00:16:36Stockton High School. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about what Stockton High, high school was like for you? JA:00:16:41Well, Stockton high school? Well, was lot, much bigger than the one in the, and you had to take certain courses and didn' ; t, I couldn' ; t uh, the regular, they had economy, the economy. AT:00:17:03I see. JA:00:17:07And, biologies and what else could I do? AT:00:17:09Well and how did, as far as like what the towns were like, how did Stockton compare? Was it, was that also a bigger town? JA:00:17:19Well, not that big, they were sort of like, Each Japanese had their own sector. The Philippine have their own and the Chinese well, they were sort of mixed. So we always used to go eat at the Chinese restaurant. AT:00:17:39Um, that was in Stockton? JA:00:17:41Stockton, yeah. AT:00:17:42So were there, were there. A lot more Japanese American families in Stockton? JA:00:17:47Yeah, in Stockton. It was quite a few. That' ; s probably, there' ; s a bunch that, uh, we all were located to Rohwer. We' ; ll all together in one area blocks up, they call it a block. So we knew them from back home, see. AT:00:18:13Um, and can you tell me a little bit more about, do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed? December seventh? In 41, Pearl Harbor? JA:00:18:25What? I was what? AT:00:18:26Do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed? JA:00:18:31Oh yeah. AT:00:18:31What you were doing or. JA:00:18:33No, I don' ; t remember doing any... But we were not aware a aware of what, where Pearl Harbor was at. Yeah, no, never heard of it. But then afterwards we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have television or radio, nothing like that. So. AT:00:18:56So how did you, um, was your family then not really up to date with the news if you didn' ; t have those news sources? I guess like radio? JA:00:19:10Yeah. AT:00:19:12Um. JA:00:19:12Well they just, oh about the relocation? AT:00:19:17Yeah. How did you get information about what was happening with the war or evacuation? JA:00:19:24We didn' ; t know much about it until they sent us all of us that you are to be relocated and to be ready by certain certain date and to get rid of, sell whatever you have to or. So, so thinking we were going to be back in about a year we, so we have stored everything down in the basement of the house we were living in, but then found out the people there are wanting to sell the house. So my brother had to go from, from the, to the house and have them pack up everything and taking to storage, which was the good part of government. That they took care of. So they, and then at that time and then that one camp Stockman, there was one incident where one person tried to escape, well he was shot. I don' ; t know whether he was killed or what, but there was guards there too. AT:00:20:36Do you, and so let' ; s see, just for context, you were, you graduated in 40, so by this time were out of, you were done with high school. JA:00:20:48Yeah 1940 I was done with Stockton and graduated. AT:00:20:56So what, between 1940 and the evacuation, what were you, were you working? JA:00:21:06Yeah oh well, running the restaurant. AT:00:21:06Okay. Um, do you remember your, your personal reactions to the evacuation? JA:00:21:18Nothing. Nothing, nothing of a sound or anything. We just filled, I say, Oh the government is gonna ship us out. So we just packed everything and, and told us to take whatever you could carry. And that was was uh, what golding or bedding but leave everything else. But then like, we took a case of Japanese records and so we were in Stockton and the FBI goes door to door to check on all the, um, just the, oh we have some Japanese record. He confiscated them and my brother was so mad. He called them bad names [laughs]. Yeah he was bad. AT:00:22:11These were like documents or papers? JA:00:22:13No, no just playing record music, Japanese. Yeah yeah yeah. AT:00:22:16Oh, just music? JA:00:22:18Uh no, that incident. So we were in this one barrack, well with one, one, a whole family was in that one section. And there was I think another family on the, there' ; s bout two other families in that one barrack. But, uh, seven of us was in a one one room, room. That was for until the time they transferred us over to the relocation camp in Rohwer. AT:00:23:01And do you remember your initial reactions to the assembly center in Stockton? JA:00:23:07No. That' ; s the funny thing. We didn' ; t feel anything. Well so we just thought, well the government is gunna do it. So we just went along the rest. Yeah. AT:00:23:20And you' ; re with your entire family at this point? JA:00:23:23Yeah, well there were lot of families that were split. But uh, we were all together. I was thinking of my second brother. What did he sleep? I don' ; t, ah, no. I think he was by himself. AT:00:23:42Um, were, were any of them married or JA:00:23:46No, nobody was married in. AT:00:23:48And what were your brother, your older siblings? Um, what were they doing before evacuation, if not in school? JA:00:24:00Oh, they were working. No, my oldest brother, he worked in the restaurant and my second brother, he was a farmer job, uh, driving a truck. So there was the fruits, tomatoes. And all kinds of vegetables. JA:00:24:20So like a truck farmer? JA:00:24:22Huh? AT:00:24:22A truck farmer? JA:00:24:24No, he was a driver. AT:00:24:25Oh just the driver. JA:00:24:26Driver, the truck, did transfer and all of it. Vegetable have to be picked up and taken to the shipping dock or whatever it was. So he worked in the grape, in Lodi. That was a grape, grape town. So he worked in the grapes, cutting back in grapes. So. AT:00:24:51And how long were you all um, in Stoct- in the assembly center? JA:00:24:57Well... AT:00:24:57In the racetrack? JA:00:25:01Till uh, let' ; s see, we were there for, 1942 we were moved up to Rohwer. AT:00:25:13So let' ; s see. That would have, was it just a matter of months that you were staying there or that you stayed there? JA:00:25:21There we were transferred in 1943. To, oh, Rohwer. AT:00:25:26Okay. So about a year? In Stockton? JA:00:25:27Yeah, almost a year because they had to have all those barracks built. AT:00:25:34And what, what did you do during that time? In Stockton? JA:00:25:37In Stockton? Well we worked in the mess hall. Cleaning. [laughs] Well, there was nothing else much to do. And then we used to sew and learn how to crochet. And, what else? We didn' ; t do much. There really wasn' ; t much to do there. AT:00:25:57Your younger siblings, did they have to go to school? JA:00:26:01Uh, I think, Shig, my youngest brothers, the youngest they had finished, uh, grammar school. So, they didn' ; t go to high school. That' ; s right they didn' ; t get to go because by the time they got into camp, uh, I was thinking whether he was, they were drafted from the camp or after we moved to Stock- a Chicago, but anyway, they were drafted. AT:00:26:41The older boys, the older boys? JA:00:26:44No, the younger boys. AT:00:26:44The younger boys. Well, and so they must have been very close to draft age then. JA:00:26:52Oh yeah. AT:00:26:5518. Um, so in ' ; 43, your family went to Rohwer. JA:00:27:07Uh, where? AT:00:27:07To Rohwer. JA:00:27:12Yeah, Rohwer yea. AT:00:27:12And how did Rohwer compare to the race track? JA:00:27:17Well, it was big! It was old, no trees. It was hot and humid. And winter was cold because the barracks were just single, single. What? AT:00:27:34Like plywood? JA:00:27:36Yeah. AT:00:27:37Uh, huh JA:00:27:42So we had two separate apartments. Mother and father and the, us girls had one and the boys next door. AT:00:27:55So you' ; re still with all of your family. JA:00:27:58Yeah. Right. Then we had friends that were still from Stockton. They lived in the same block. They call it block one or block two. AT:00:28:09Which block? JA:00:28:11Nineteen, we were in. [laughs] AT:00:28:18Does it surprise you that you remember that or is that something that you' ; ve always remembered JA:00:28:24Certain things I remember, uh, then. And there was more activity there. So we, I learned how to draft clothes pattern. And they had sewing and there were uh, dances at night and they had baseball games in, the daytime. There was a lot of things to do. We, same thing, we all worked in the, mess hall. And fix the tables and clean the table. AT:00:28:58Where are you getting paid for that work? JA:00:29:00Well, that one we got $10. AT:00:29:03Were you getting paid at Stockton? Where are you getting paid at the race track? JA:00:29:09No, no we didn' ; t. I don' ; t think we got paid there. AT:00:29:13Mmm. And how about your family members? Were other folks in your family also working? JA:00:29:21Let' ; s see the. The boys, they didn' ; t do anything. My brother this one name Hiro the one, Hiro? He was very, very helpful in driving the trucks and delivering all the heavy uh, materials. And Rohwer they call him Powerhouse because he would, have you seen those big iron wood stoves that they install? He will carry that by himself. So he was always busy. He was always busy driving the truck delivering cartons of vegetables over there. AT:00:30:09In camp? JA:00:30:09In camp, yeah. AT:00:30:09So it sounds like it was a very large camp. JA:00:30:14Wha? AT:00:30:14Sounds like it was a large camp. Big camp. JA:00:30:17Oh yeah, there was, how many was? Was it 5,000? Or I forgot what amount was in that camp. What or was it 10 thousand? AT:00:30:29I, I' ; m not sure off hand. JA:00:30:31I know one, then they were Jerome, that was a little further away, Jerome. That was the other camp, but they finally combined both of them into one. I think, was it? Can' ; t remember. Have to at least a 5,000 or 10 thousand. I don' ; t know what. I think more five thousand. AT:00:30:56And how long was your family there in Rohwer? JA:00:31:00Uh, we were all, I came out in 1943. She got out Because my sister and a friend, her girlfriend, they had come out earlier and they had through a friend, through the JASC, they had set up, they found housing. So they, AT:00:31:26Which sister was this? JA:00:31:28Grace. AT:00:31:30Grace. JA:00:31:30The oldest one. AT:00:31:31Older tha- just one older than you, yeah. JA:00:31:33One above me, yeah. AT:00:31:38Um, can you tell me more about, umm, that process of JA:00:31:45Huh? AT:00:31:45Can you tell me more about the process of leaving camp early to go somewhere like Chicago? Do you remember that at all? JA:00:31:55Oh, there' ; s no problem because, uh, all you had to write down, where are you going to go? And we' ; d have a place to stay and where, you know there' ; s no problem getting out. So a lot of people were starting to leave camp, 1943 AT:00:32:17And then, I' ; m sorry, did you say that your sister left as well or, or she just had a friend who was out there. Did grace go to Chicago early? JA:00:32:26Yes, she did. She and her girlfriend, Dorothy, I think that was her name. They left and they, and JASU, I think? AT:00:32:36The Resettlers Committee. JA:00:32:41Yeah, Resettlers Committee. I think, Kenji Nakane. Well he had help us, at that time. AT:00:32:49And um, JA:00:32:52Then they, then she met the Moss Makoka. Very, they were very helpful cause they were here, they were from uh, they lived here in Chicago already. Some of these Japanese. AT:00:33:06Um, just going to take a break for one second cause I' ; m going to adjust that microphone. JA:00:33:16Ah, okay. AT:00:33:17But sorry about that. Yeah, take, take a quick break. And would you be fine just looking at that window kind of as though you were talking to me? Ok going to adjust this a little bit. Okay. So Grace and her girlfriend went to Chicago with the help of the Resettlers Committee. JA:00:34:21Hmm? AT:00:34:21And Mr. Nakane . Um, and so, was she the first one in your family to leave camp. JA:00:34:31Leave camp, yes. AT:00:34:31And, and then where, kind of, where, what were people in your family doing after that? After Grace left? JA:00:34:45Oh we stayed there.Then, uh, Doris and I, 442nd in Camp Shelby they wanted some girls to come for their party or dance. So a bunch of us went! AT:00:34:58Outside of camp? JA:00:35:02Yeah. AT:00:35:02Where, and I' ; m sorry, reminded me? JA:00:35:04Camp Shelby. That' ; s in Mississippi. AT:00:35:07Mississippi, okay. Um, how did, how did that work? People just got selected to. JA:00:35:16No, just whoever wanted to go signed up. So I met an, uh, soldier friend there. Very nice. AT:00:35:31Um, can you, so tell me more about that? I actually, I had never heard of people leaving camp to go to camp Shelby. JA:00:35:44Yeah. AT:00:35:48So was this also 1940, so this must' ; ve been after 1943 if it was a 442nd? JA:00:35:56Who was it. Because I left camp 1943. AT:00:36:03Ok. JA:00:36:03Later on. AT:00:36:03But before then... JA:00:36:03Since it happened in spring time. See, so a lot of that' ; s around October, I think September, October I left camp 1943. AT:00:36:18Um, but the, the party was in the spring? JA:00:36:21The wha? AT:00:36:21The party at camp Shelby was in the spring? JA:00:36:24Uh probably, that' ; s uh, yeah. Cause it' ; s still warm. Yeah. New Speaker:00:36:28Can you tell me more about that? Must have been very exciting. To leave camp and for a party, no less. JA:00:36:37[laughs], yeah. AT:00:36:37So, so what was that like? You just, you took a train or a truck? JA:00:36:41No, they' ; re a bunch of us. They had a bus and they transported us there. And they had rooms for us there to stay, and. AT:00:36:51Was it just young women? Or JA:00:36:53Yeah! All singles. [Laughs] So it was fun. AT:00:36:59What was camp Shelby like? JA:00:37:02Was full of all Nisei soldiers. That' ; s where they, that' ; s where the 442nd started. So I met this young fellow. I liked him very much so it. and I actually, yeah, I loved him. And then I, then they had another second chance to go, so I went again. And I saw him, again. And then he felt the same way about me. I was still, I, you know, I still think about him. AT:00:37:38What was his name? JA:00:37:39His nom-name? Don Okumura. AT:00:37:47Um, JA:00:37:50And he came up to the camp that year, and he wanted to marry me. So I said fine, so we went up, went together to meet his family. They were in, uh, Heart Mountain. AT:00:38:14Um, JA:00:38:14Well Wyoming, that' ; s AT:00:38:18Do you have a clear memory of the party itself? JA:00:38:22Oh, it' ; s crowded! It was hot and humid. Ugh! So, he says, let' ; s get out of here. So he took me out there when we just stand, watched, uh. They were all having a good time. AT:00:38:40And so there, was there music and dancing or food or... JA:00:38:45No just dance, m, I don' ; t remember much of it. Well of that, anyway. [laughs] AT:00:38:50Or, and was it, did they have like a rec hall or, JA:00:38:55Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so the next morning we had breakfast there, within, um, my sister to have a best friend too, there, AT:00:39:11How many days or nights were you there? New Speaker:00:39:13Well, you stay the whole night, that' ; s all. AT:00:39:16Overnight and then went back the next day. Um, and Don. Where was, where was he from originally? JA:00:39:25He was from California. They had strawberries, strawberry farm. AT:00:39:34Mmm. So that was in spring. And you said you went back one more time before leaving camp? JA:00:39:42Yeah, what was it, the same year, I don' ; t know. AT:00:39:47Another dance or social event? JA:00:39:48Yeah. I don' ; t remember what day or month it was. AT:00:39:55Had you been keeping in touch with Don, since the first time? JA:00:39:59I wrote him. AT:00:39:59Like writing letters or, JA:00:40:02Then he finally says, I think he says, ah, I don' ; t want to, I don' ; t want to marry me. I said, oh, okay, he was down in Camp Shelby, I was in Chicago, so it sort of broke my heart. But I got to know his whole family. The Okumura family, his sister and brother, AT:00:40:30The ones who were in Heart Mountain? JA:00:40:32Yeah, they were all in Heart Mountain. AT:00:40:36And I, I' ; m sorry, did you say that you were able to go visit as well? JA:00:40:43What? AT:00:40:43You were able to visit as well? Heart mountain? JA:00:40:46Yeah, I went with him. But that' ; s when I left camp. And went straight to Chicago. AT:00:40:54From Heart mountain? JA:00:40:56Yeah. AT:00:40:57Oh wow. Okay. Um, what was Heart Mountain like for you? Cause that was probably the first time you' ; re seeing a different camp. JA:00:41:05The same thing. Bare. Not a tree in sight. And that place was, when they get, they get sand storm. And the sand will come through the, through the walls. It was really terrible. They always, they all say Heart Mountain as being one of the worst camp. I think they say. It was real, real bad. AT:00:41:38How long did you stay there? JA:00:41:44Oh, we stayed there about four days I think. Yeah. AT:00:41:48And you had to have had the plan, JA:00:41:50Huh? AT:00:41:51You had had the plan to move to Chicago from Heart mountain, is that right? Or JA:00:42:03No. I guess, I don' ; t remember what I did. But anyway I didn' ; t go back to Rohwer so I probably to stay in Chicago, live with my, where my sister had a apartment and rent so I stayed there and he went back to Camp Shelby. AT:00:42:25Umm. So can you, can you tell me about, um, that move to Chicago? How did you get there? JA:00:42:35Oh, they dragged out the old trains and they were all dusty and dirty, but he took us five days to get from Stockton to Rohwer. AT:00:42:53Okay. But the, um, I' ; m sorry, the, the train from Heart mountain to Chicago. JA:00:42:58Oh Heart Mountain. AT:00:42:58Did you take a train? JA:00:42:59Oh yeah. Packed with soldiers. [laughs]. AT:00:43:03Were there other, um, uh, internees who went to Chicago as well from Heart mountain? Like were you traveling with anyone from camp? JA:00:43:14Well, that, I don' ; t know. There must be, oh, I that, I don' ; t know at that time. AT:00:43:21Can you tell me more about your arrival to Chicago? Do you remember first coming here, or first, getting here? What that was like? JA:00:43:33Mmm. Oh. I didn' ; t think nothing of it. It just, nothing. [laughs] Well, I was glad to be able to have stayed with my sister until we find apartment that all of us could live in. AT:00:43:58Where, where was her apartment? JA:00:44:02Uh, let' ; s see. Well, it' ; s up in the North Side. Oh well, where is it. Near Fullerton? And um, Clark street, somewhere around there. Then later on we found out we had to move so moved down to Chicago Avenue and, and Clark Street. AT:00:44:36Um [phone rings] whoops! We' ; ll just hang out for a second. JA:00:44:36That' ; s fine. Whereas, hey! AT:00:44:48Um. JA:00:44:48Anything else? AT:00:45:01So Fullerton and Clark street, uh, what was that area like? At that time? JA:00:45:06Well, it was great. Okay. Oh, I didn' ; t know. Not like now what it is today. It' ; s entirely different, but it was a quiet area. AT:00:45:22And um, was she in a one bedroom or like what was her apartment like? JA:00:45:29Well they had, when I first went there was one bedroom and then later on they said we have to move out. So we had to relocate, went down to Chicago avenue and that apartment had one big, big bedroom and another, so there was two double beds, so we sleep. And there was the kitchen, and a dining room, bathroom, and a living room. AT:00:46:06So that sounds like it was a nice space, there. JA:00:46:09Well, it was very reason- it was $75 a month, the rent. AT:00:46:16And that with, that was with, um, Doris. JA:00:46:22No not Doris, Doris was still, it was still... AT:00:46:24Oh I' ; m sorry. With Grace. JA:00:46:24Grace. AT:00:46:26And did you say, was she with her girlfriend as well? JA:00:46:29Yeah. New Speaker:00:46:29That she traveled with? JA:00:46:31Yeah AT:00:46:31So was it, were you all staying together then? JA:00:46:34Yeah. AT:00:46:35The three of you? JA:00:46:35Dorothy and Grace and I moved to this apartment. Down the Chicago Avenue. Then they know, uh, two more girls. They had left town and they came to live with us. So there was all of us living there. AT:00:46:58Did you find work? JA:00:47:00Oh, factory work, all that was there. Sewing on bud- buttons. AT:00:47:06Sewing on buttons. JA:00:47:08[laughs]. AT:00:47:08Which factory was that? JA:00:47:15Oh, I don' ; t know, was down on, uh, Franklin Street. I don' ; t know. AT:00:47:18And so coming to Chicago, um, as a young woman. How was that for you? Did you like it here or was it challenging or,JA:00:47:31Oh, it' ; s nice it' ; s okay. Except sometime on the street when I would go down shopping in the loop. Say " ; Why don' ; t you go back where you come from ?" ; see. Well, aside from that, there' ; s no other harassment. AT:00:47:48Mmhmm. JA:00:47:48Oh, they were all family. AT:00:47:55And um, JA:00:47:591945 my family, the camp had to be closed. My mother and father. Well before that my brother and I went looking for a house so that we all can live in. So we found one down on the South Side on Ellis Avenue of 4100 North, uh South rather, so. AT:00:48:32And did you say your brother came to help look for a house? JA:00:48:37Which brother? AT:00:48:39I thought I heard you say your brother and you. JA:00:48:42Oh, the Hiroshi? Yeah, I think he was out of the army then. So he and I went looking for houses and this real estate man told us about this house on the South Side, which, we could afford but it' ; s only $6,000 at that time. But so with monthly payment, we were, live there, paid. So my brother and father came out and my second brother Kiyo, he transferred all their, what was the, all our. AT:00:49:30Belongings? JA:00:49:32That we had left behind in Stockton, brought to the storage here in Chicago. So my brother had to pick it up with a truck and he backed up on drive way to get us closer to the house. And some neighbor reported to him that he' ; s parking on the sidewalk. So he was taken to jail. [Laughs] Saying that he' ; s, yeah. What? He' ; s not supposed to be doing that. I don' ; t know what was anyway, anyway, they took him to jail. AT:00:50:16For moving? JA:00:50:17Yeah. Well, he' ; s on the sidewalk see, um, uh, those are, some of it. Was we stayed there for until, what is it? 19? When they bought this other house on Carmen and 6th. Well, Phyllis was nine years old. Yeah. Nine years. No, no, she wasn' ; t quite eight year old. So that was 1958. AT:00:50:54That you' ; ve moved up North from the house? JA:00:50:581958 we moved out of the South Side. And moved into, well on Carmen street. AT:00:51:08So, um, but your family when they had all came out, they came to the Ellis Avenue house. JA:00:51:18Right, right. AT:00:51:18Um, so who all in your, was it your entire family staying there? JA:00:51:22What? AT:00:51:22Was it your entire family staying in that house or just, um, some of your siblings and your parents? JA:00:51:31Most all of us. Except my brother. Yoshi didn' ; t, why did they, I just try to remember. Did he stay with us? I just, I don' ; t remember that. The older two brothers. AT:00:51:50Uh huh. Do you remember the address of that house? The address of the Ellis Avenue house? JA:00:51:58Do I what? AT:00:51:58Do you remember the address? JA:00:52:02Oh, I think it was 21. Anyways, 2100 S. AT:00:52:09And were there other Japanese American families in that neighborhood? JA:00:52:13Oh yeah. Next door. Next door. Uh, what is that name? They moved over one door away. They moved uh, oh what' ; s their name... Omori. Omori the family moved there. Betty and Carol and the mother. Oh, that' ; s right. And the father. AT:00:52:40Those were your neighbors? JA:00:52:42Yeah. And it just so happened the, they became more or less like a relative. My sister married Moss Motoka that she met here in Chicago and they were the, uh, they were, oh, the sister was the same. AT:00:53:07Um, and uh, were you, throughout camp and up through Chicago, Were you still, uh, religious or practicing? Um JA:00:53:22No. Well, because, they didn' ; t handle no Buddhist church down there. Oh no, they didn' ; t. Until they came out to Chicago. And then there' ; s Reverend Kono, He started somewhere down on the South Side. AT:00:53:47Um, so did you go to that, to his church at all? JA:00:53:51No, but we used to go down to the other one. The one on the South side, Reverend Kubose. We used to go there. Cause that was the only one available. We just, that one. When, uh, Midwest was finally, uh, adopted, we switched over to Midwest. AT:00:54:17um, so that would have been the Chicago Buddhist Church. That' ; s what it was called at the time. JA:00:54:24Chicago, that' ; s the, that' ; s the one. On the North Side, uh, was run by Dr, Mr, Rev. Kubose. AT:00:54:36And, um. So during while you were on Ellis Avenue, were you still working at that factory on Franklin? JA:00:54:49Yeah. Then finally I got tired of it. Then Doris and I, decided to go into sewing, uh, at home. So she started taking orders for making dresses for different customers. AT:00:55:06So you all started your own business. JA:00:55:11Yeah, more or less. AT:00:55:11Did you have a name for yourself? JA:00:55:16No, [laughs], no. AT:00:55:17But just taking individual orders. JA:00:55:19What? AT:00:55:19Just taking individual orders. JA:00:55:22Yeah, right. AT:00:55:22And so how long were you all doing that and which, was that out of? JA:00:55:28Down on the South Side. AT:00:55:29On the South Side? That you were doing that? JA:00:55:30Yeah, and then later on I switched when I decided to go out to work because I was getting a little bit better offers. So I went, someone was, uh, trying to open up from a plastic, plastic bag after night. So I went to seal, seal the plastic bags. Well, she was paying a little bit better. You know how cheap it was! I guess you don' ; t know [laughs]. Cars, oh traffic, well how much was a street car? Five, 10 cents. Yeah. Loaf of bread was, well 10 cents. I don' ; t know. And I was being paid only 25 cents an hour when I first came up. Yeah. AT:00:56:24Was that pretty standard. JA:00:56:26Huh? AT:00:56:26Was that pretty standard for a Chicago wage? JA:00:56:32Oh yeah, at that time, yeah. AT:00:56:33And your family members, when they all joined you guys in Chicago, what kind of work or things where your.... JA:00:56:43Oh, they didn' ; t do any work. AT:00:56:46Your parents? JA:00:56:54Yeah. AT:00:56:54And how about your siblings? JA:00:56:57Well, let' ; s see. AT:00:57:00So Kiyo was, uh, arrested in Stockton, JA:00:57:03And then he was released that day. AT:00:57:04He was released. Oh, so it was just a day. JA:00:57:09Yeah. AT:00:57:09And then was he able to, um, drive back out? JA:00:57:12Yeah. Oh yeah. AT:00:57:13To Chicago. JA:00:57:15You know what, I' ; m trying think? Where the heck did he live? He didn' ; t, was with us. AT:00:57:23But he came to Chicago? JA:00:57:25Oh yeah. So did Jerry too. But that' ; s a given. And then they got married. Jerry, met, met this girl in the same camp, in Rohwer, and they got married. I was thinking, oh gee they didn' ; t have a wedding! [laughs] Same thing with my sister. I came home one day and she' ; s, says, oh what are you doing here? Oh, I' ; m getting married. AT:00:57:58Which sister? JA:00:57:59Grace. AT:00:58:02Uh, and who did Grace marry? Someone from camp? JA:00:58:04Moss, Moss MotokaAT:00:58:07From Chicago. JA:00:58:08Yeah. AT:00:58:12Um, uh, and uh, as far as. JA:00:58:17What? AT:00:58:18As far as your, just kind of your general daily life in Chicago. Um, were you doing anything besides work? JA:00:58:29No, not until we moved into the. AT:00:58:33[sneezes] Excuse me. JA:00:58:38Until we moved to the house on Carmen street. There' ; s the big yard there, so I just, oh let' ; s see. My father on the South Side, he was plant, grow. What did he grow? Eggplant and tomatoes. In the the little backyard. AT:00:59:03On the South Side. JA:00:59:05Yeah, South Side. AT:00:59:07So you had a yard there? In that house. JA:00:59:09Yeah. Then in the Carmen street, there was a are double lot, so it' ; s a big bed. So my mother, let' ; s see, she didn' ; t do it. She did the dogs. Grew some, what did she grow? Anyway, I took over and I started growing vegetables and flowers and fixed up the yard. A little nice! I miss that. You know, or anyway AT:00:59:46So you said you moved to the North Side in ' ; 58. Um. Well and where you attend regularly attending the Buddhist services? JA:01:00:02Yeah, we were going there. So my sister at that time, she' ; s drove see, so we' ; re able to go down. No, that' ; s one thing I' ; ve never learned how to, but I didn' ; t get to learn. And I, [laughs] I never regret it. AT:01:00:23And uh, as far as your, your social life, were you mostly hanging out with family or spending time with family or did you, were you meeting people when you came to Chicago? JA:01:00:36No, just didn' ; t do much. Just every day, go to work, take care of the, and eh do the, I had the babies, the girls and at the time they got old enough to be taken care of, my sister, would, we live together in the same building. She would fix them lunch. So I was able to go to work. So I went to work for this Art Japanese, Aiko' ; s Art Material? Out there on, uh, I' ; m just trying to think of the first, where she had the art supply store. AT:01:01:31Uh, and what were you doing there? JA:01:01:34Huh? AT:01:01:34What kind of work were you doing there? JA:01:01:38Selling paper, Japanese paper and maybe, yeah. AT:01:01:54Um. When, and so did you, did you get married at all? JA:01:01:57Did I get married? In 19, 19 [laughs] I can' ; t even remember when I get, 1955. AT:01:02:10How did you meet your husband? JA:01:02:14Oh, I met him at some kind of get together. And then I hadn' ; t seen or heard of him for a while. Then, about three years later, he calls up and says, I like to go. You know, see you' ; ll go on a date. So that' ; s how we started. AT:01:02:33What was his name? JA:01:02:35Huh? AT:01:02:35What was his name? JA:01:02:39Robert Aragaki. He was from Hawaii. AT:01:02:41Um, so he probably didn' ; t go to camp then. JA:01:02:49No. he was from Hawaii, was 18 he left Hawaii and came to Chicago. Thinking he was going to go to some dental school? Or what I don' ; t know, but I guess find out [coughs] not that easy. But he met up with a dentals man to help him. So he became friends with him. AT:01:03:18Do you know what year that was? That he, do you know what year that was? That he came to Chicago. JA:01:03:22What? AT:01:03:23What year he came to Chicago. JA:01:03:25He? AT:01:03:26Mmhmm, your husband. JA:01:03:28I don' ; t know what, must of been 19, at least? AT:01:03:35Or what year was he born in. JA:01:03:37The same year as me. [laughs]. AT:01:03:40Okay. So let' ; s see. Um, JA:01:03:45In 1921. AT:01:03:46Mmhmm. So in 1939? JA:01:03:50About that, yeah. AT:01:03:52So before the war. JA:01:03:54Yeah. AT:01:03:54Did you, and did you two ever talk about camp or, or what happened during World War II? JA:01:04:05To who? AT:01:04:05With your husband? JA:01:04:07Oh, they were, might of Interested. AT:01:04:14Umm, because I think it would be interesting as, probably as someone who' ; s Japanese, because before the war there weren' ; t that many Japanese in Chicago or not as many as, JA:01:04:31No. AT:01:04:31Those who came. Um, so I would wonder if you thought anything of that. JA:01:04:38No, cause he, he met a few uh. He started taking oil painting and he met this teacher, they, he would trying out in, Oh, what was his last name? Giovanni or something. Anyways. He was a very good teacher that he learned from. All the, that' ; s one of his paintings. AT:01:05:07Oh, wow. JA:01:05:08That' ; s. AT:01:05:08Um, well, I see that we have lunch ready so we can, um, start wrapping up. JA:01:05:20Okay.UAT:01:05:24Um, let' ; s see. Was there any particular reason why you chose to move to the North Side? JA:01:05:34Well. AT:01:05:35From the South Side? JA:01:05:37Well at that time it wasn' ; t bad yet, but then I found out, there was a lot of Black was moving in, um, since they' ; ve found this nice big house. So they all moved to Carmen street. So I' ; m glad they did because of the big yard I was able to grow vegetables and flowers and make it, make the yard look nice. AT:01:06:09And were you, uh, so it was when you moved that you started moving, or working at Aiko' ; s Art Supply? JA:01:06:19Yeah AT:01:06:22Um, did you ever think about moving back to California? JA:01:06:26No, there' ; s nothing to move back to! Cause we have nothing there. I suppose it would be nice but. There were some people that we knew, they, they had their own farms, so they had them, they moved back. AT:01:06:46And when you think about your experiences during the war and, and resettlement, coming to Chicago, do you feel any particular way when you think about it? JA:01:06:59No, I think it was for the best of us. It turned out that we were able to make a better living. Although. And my girls were able to go to college. So I think it was good. AT:01:07:23Was it something that you shared with your family that you talked about? JA:01:07:29Well, you know, that' ; s the one thing. I didn' ; t even talk to my husband very much. He doesn' ; t talk much. He didn' ; t talk much, very much. All he did was go to work in the morning, come home, eat and read the paper or watch TV. And by nine o' ; clock, he' ; s asleep cause he gets up in the morning, at four o' ; clock. So he wasn' ; t much of a talker. But then when he gets with his friends, he talk talk talk. [laughs] AT:01:08:07Uh, and just a few final questions. Um, did you receive the official apology and the redress? JA:01:08:20Yeah and the later on in, 19, not, 20, what was it, we got the reparations AT:01:08:27' ; 88 JA:01:08:28Of $20,000. AT:01:08:30Hmm. JA:01:08:32I have the letter of apology someplace AT:01:08:36Mmm. Did you have any reactions to that? JA:01:08:40Well, I thought that wasn' ; t so bad. Too bad my mother and father, they couldn' ; t receive that, but they had passed on. AT:01:08:53Mmhmm., And one thing I like to ask people before we wrap up is, um, if you could leave any message or, or legacy behind with your family, your children, your grandchildren, what' ; s something you would like them to know? JA:01:09:14No, I haven' ; t thought about that. AT:01:09:18I know I' ; m putting you on the spot. JA:01:09:21Uh, well, that' ; s something to think about. AT:01:09:27Right. Okay. In that case, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. JA:01:09:37Well, it' ; s a very interesting [laughs] Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AragakiJune20180906.xml AragakiJune20180906.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Aragaki, June (9/6/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
June Aragaki is a Nisei born in 1921 in Stockton California. She speaks about growing up in rural California, where her parents started as migrant farmers and her siblings eventually ran a small restaurant. Her whole family was interned in Rohwer, and eventually ended up in Chicago. She speaks about being involved in the emerging Japanese Buddhist community, working in a variety of factories, and what life was like for her and her siblings trying to re-start their lives in the 1940s and 1950s.
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2018-09-06
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video
Series: Untold Stories
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arakawa, Paul
Kimura, Susie
Interview Keyword
Tule Lake
Poston
Santa Anita
Amache
San Diego
Newcastle
Auburn
Hyde Park
Lake View
Buddhist Temple of Chicago
University of Chicago Roundtable Radio
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/15/2017 Arakawa, Paul and Kimura, Susie (9/15/2017) 1:04:08 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Tule Lake Poston Santa Anita Amache San Diego Newcastle Auburn Hyde Park Lake View Buddhist Temple of Chicago University of Chicago Roundtable Radio Arakawa, Paul Kimura, Susie Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/300572745 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/300572745?h=82a1f7b217" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Paul Arakawa was born in San Diego, California and grew up in town. Susie Kimura was born in Newcastle, California but grew up pn a fruit farm in Auburn, a more rural upbringing. In this interview they discuss their adolescence, where they were when Pearl Harbor was bombed, and the process of their forced evacuation. They discuss the losses they experienced as their lives were uprooted, such as how their fathers burned personal materials for the families [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Paul Arakawa:00:00:01Are you going to destroy this film afterwards? Anna Takada:00:00:03So could you two start by stating your names, your full names and your hometown? Susie Kimura:00:00:14Oh. PA:00:00:14I' ; m Paul Arakawa. AT:00:00:18And where were you born? PA:00:00:21Where was I born? San Diego, California. AT:00:00:25And Mrs. Kimura-- SK:00:00:27Oh-- AT:00:00:28What' ; s your name and your hometown? SK:00:00:30Susie Kimura. Where I live now? AT:00:00:37Where you were born? SK:00:00:38Oh, where I was born? Newcastle, California. AT:00:00:44So Newcastle and San Diego ; Can you tell me a little bit more about your hometowns? What--what they were like, how you remember them? PA:00:00:53Well, it was a navy town. Pretty Nice. And the weather-- the weather was very nice. People wonder why I left. [Chuckles] AT:00:01:08What year were you born? PA:00:01:101923. AT:00:01:14And, Mrs. Kimura, what was Newastle like? SK:00:01:17Oh, well I was born there, but I, I lived in Auburn, California and that' ; s all agricultural--town, a little town, probably 3,000 people there. AT:00:01:36So you moved there when you were very young? SK:00:01:38Yeah. Yeah. I think we moved there in 1932 on a farm until the war broke out. AT:00:01:49And what year were you born? SK:00:01:51' ; 24. AT:00:01:56And how did your families end up in those--those areas? What did your parents do? PA:00:02:04Well, my parents-- my dad had a male clothing store. Ma and Pa kind of, type of store. AT:00:02:20And--and how about you, you Mrs. Kimura? SK:00:02:22Yeah. Well, my folks bought a farm in Auburn, so that' ; s where we moved when I was what-- in ' ; 32, something like 8 years old. And we' ; ve been there since, until the war started. Oh, and in fact, my brother got the farm right now. AT:00:02:46Oh wow, still. SK:00:02:47So they were able to get the farm back. AT:00:02:51What-- what kind of farm was it? SK:00:02:53It was a-- fruit farm. So fruit farm, did have some berries and things like that, but mostly fruits. Yeah. AT:00:03:09And what are your--did you two grow up around other Japanese American families or what were the towns like? PA:00:03:23Well, San Diego--I-- we lived in town, so there were very few Japanese there because most of them were farmers and the other part of the San Diego County. AT:00:03:39And did either of you have siblings? PA:00:03:44What? AT:00:03:44Siblings, brothers and sisters. PA:00:03:46Well, yeah. I was in the middle with five of us, two girls and two boy--two boys. AT:00:04:00Were the girls older or?-- PA:00:04:04Well one-- one was older and the other one, was the youngest. AT:00:04:15And so were you--were you third or fourth? PA:00:04:18I was in the middle. I was the third one. AT:00:04:21Third child PA:00:04:22Yeah. AT:00:04:24And how about you Mrs. Kimura? SK:00:04:26Oh, well-- there was, actually there was nine of us. The oldest one died right after childbirth. And I got one older brother, he passed away couple of years ago. And certain I' ; m next in line and I got what five below me. Yeah. AT:00:04:45So you' ; re both the third child? SK:00:04:53[Chuckles and confirms yes with nod] AT:00:04:54So, and-- and how about you Mrs. Kimura was-- did you grow up around other Japanese American families or -- SK:00:05:01I--there, a couple of neighbors there were on being on the farm. Like they were, they were -- mostly American people. AT:00:05:12And was that, did the same go for your schooling? Were you going to school with-- SK:00:05:17--- Our school was---well, they told us we were in the country. We have to go to a-- a country library and we couldn' ; t go to the town library. There were not too many, maybe 15 family-- Japanese familes, but mostly it was a church group. AT:00:05:47What, what kind of church was that? SK:00:05:49It was Buddhist church, yeah. AT:00:05:55And so where--what was kind of a--a typical day for you two growing up? SK:00:06:06School. Is it school and work? [Both laugh] PA:00:06:10No work for me but school. SK:00:06:12No work, school yeah. Being on a farm, we had--yeah, we had to work after we got back from school when we were young PA:00:06:23Us city folks don' ; t do that. SK:00:06:25Yeah. Yeah. You were a city. AT:00:06:30And, did your parents, did they all come from Japan? PA and SK:00:06:35[Both nod yes]. AT:00:06:37Where in Japan were they from? SK:00:06:38Hiroshima. PA:00:06:40Same. Same here. AT:00:06:44And do you know what year they came to the states? PA:00:06:47Gee, I don' ; t know. I think my dad came early part of 1900s. SK:00:06:56My folks, my dad was here when he was young. I think he was 13 years old. And then, then he went back to Japan to marry my mother and then they came back. Yeah. AT:00:07:15Do you know what year that was that they came back? SK:00:07:201919, 1920, something like that. I think they got married 1920, I think yeah. AT:00:07:28And then do you two remember when, when Pearl Harbor was bombed?-- PA:00:07:32What? SK:00:07:32Oh AT:00:07:32Do you remember when Pearl Harbor was bombed? PA:00:07:38Yeah, I was listening to the University of Chicago Roundtable. That' ; s what I usually listened to every Sunday. And then, you know the news broke about the bombing and-- shocking. AT:00:07:58Were you at home? PA:00:07:59Yeah. AT:00:08:01Listening to the radio? PA:00:08:01Yeah. SK:00:08:01We-- we, we were in Japanese school on-- this was on Sunday. So we were, we were, I was at Japanese school. And then when we had lunch and right after we got back from the lunch period, the boys were-- the boys had cars and they were listening to the radio and they said, they were saying the Pearl Harbor, yeah. Japan-- Japanese bombed from Pearl Harbor and we were talking and talking and-- but the teacher got angry at us because we were whispering and talking and, I didn' ; t think he knew anything until he went-- I mean nobody told him that Japanese had bombed Hawai' ; i, and--and that teacher got [turns to Paul Arakawa to ask], what do they call it interned? They took all the Isseis, you know, teachers and town people, they were interned first, you know, the, the leaders, I would say the leaders. The Japanese teachers. AT:00:09:28So your, your teacher was Japanese? SK:00:09:31This was Japanese school. This was Sunday, so yeah. Oh yeah, Japanese school on Sunday. AT:00:09:39Did you know what Pearl Harbor was, before? PA:00:09:41Oh yeah. Well yeah, I kept up with world events anyways so I knew where. it was. AT:00:09:52Did you know what it was? SK:00:09:54I didn' ; t know what it was. [Chuckles] AT:00:09:59And how did your-- did you talk about it with your families or what, what, what happened after? Did you notice any changes? PA:00:10:08Well. We didn' ; t know what was going to happen to us after that. I kind of dreaded going to school Monday. You know, I was -- don' ; t know how my classmates would treat me, but it turned out all right. Even after we assembled in the auditorium to hear president Roosevelt make his speech about Pearl Harbor. Yeah. And, I thought maybe the attitude of peop-- you know, my teammates, schoolmates would change after that speech, but same, still fooling around, you know. AT:00:10:57What did--what did you think would change or, or why do you think they would' ; ve changed when the speech?-- PA:00:11:03What was what? AT:00:11:05Why--what do you think would have changed after the speech of the students hearing-- PA:00:11:11Well, we--we didn' ; t know what they were going to do. Then, later we found out what they were going to do to us but ' ; till then we didn' ; t know. We thought maybe we just keep on living [laughs]. AT:00:11:28And how about for--for you Mrs.--? SK:00:11:30I don' ; t really remember right away when we went to high school, but I know all the, Japanese people clung together, you know, I guess more or less to support each other. But that-- and then soon after that we couldn' ; t go to high school-- high school. We couldn' ; t go to the high school because that was the restricted area. AT:00:12:01So was that out-- was your school, far from your home? SK:00:12:07Yeah. I think it must have been about two miles. Three miles? Yeah. --The school was, more east than where we were at, but we couldn' ; t get into-- they classified the area as a white zone and red zone. What was it? White zone and--? PA:00:12:29Something like that-- SK:00:12:29Yeah, I know. Yeah. White zone was all right to go ---but the--and so we couldn' ; t go to the high school. So the school was closed, the town-- so we had to go. My dad went-- during the day and couldn' ; t go at night. The nighttime, I think you--did you have to--[turned to Paul Arakawa]. PA:00:12:57Curfew. SK:00:12:57We had curfew. And did you have to have the shades drawn on the windows? PA:00:13:05Yeah, wartime. SK:00:13:05On the farm, we never had shade. [Both laugh]. Nobody around you know, so you had to cover the-- cover the windows. That was new to us. AT:00:13:25Who was giving those instructions? Were like, where were you hearing that those were the- PA:00:13:31Where was what? AT:00:13:32Where were you hearing those instructions or who was saying that you need, that there was a curfew and that you needed to have your shades drawn? PA:00:13:40Oh yeah, they had it posted on the, on the telephone post. They had stapled on there. Which district, which area, you had SK:00:13:55You had telephone? You had telephone? PA:00:13:55Telephone. SK:00:13:55That' ; s why I was just wondering how did we hear, because we had no telephone, we didn' ; t get any newspapers-- PA:00:14:03Yeah. I lived in the city, so-- SK:00:14:04So you' ; re different. PA:00:14:06Yeah. SK:00:14:06Ours was just maybe somebody you know just said, just traveled, you know. ' ; Cause out in the farm area, how does things travel? AT:00:14:24Somehow because you found out. SK:00:14:26Yeah. Yeah. PA:00:14:35By telephone, your friends calling you. SK:00:14:35I don' ; t know. AT:00:14:36And so you were both, in your last year of high school, is that right? Seniors? SK:00:14:43Were you in senior? I was in senior. PA:00:14:44Senior, senior. I went around the school and said goodbye to the teachers and my architecture teacher said that maybe I' ; m lucky I' ; m going into camp ' ; cause, he was of German descent and he said during World War I, he went to I don' ; t know what he went through, but he must' ; ve been hassled, you know, so he says, in a way you might be lucky to be in camp because you don' ; t know, people get hostile, you know, hostile towards you otherwise that was it. AT:00:15:40And -- Mrs. Kimura when did, so they closed your high school to you-- SK:00:15:46They didn' ; t close it. We just couldn' ; t go. AT:00:15:49And-- and what, when did they implement that? When did you-- SK:00:15:54Probably, I think about March or April of ' ; 42-- AT:00:16:02And then do you remember when the evacuation orders went out? SK:00:16:08You went out early-- PA:00:16:14About February, I think? SK:00:16:16See we didn' ; t have to move until July. PA:00:16:18Well, we didn' ; t move out until April. But the order came out, I don' ; t know exactly when but-- February something-- you know, they had to get--all the politicians had to get together and figure out what they' ; re gonna do with us. AT:00:16:45Do you remember your--your responses or how you felt when, when you saw the orders or when you heard about them? PA:00:16:55Well, kind of shocking that they would try to incarcerate us--being, you know, American citizens. We had the face of the enemy, but that doesn' ; t mean that we weren' ; t loyal to our, you know, country that we were born in. So it was kind of demeaning to me. SK:00:17:20Well, I couldn' ; t understand why we were picked when there were also, Germans and Italians and why it was just us. It was my, that was my feeling. AT:00:17:44And so how much time did your families have to--to get ready to, to leave? And do you remember that period well? PA:00:17:54Well, from the time we got the order ' ; till April, we had time, you know, my, my father had and they still, they told us that we could only take what we can carry. And my dad had his back with two suitcases and something in each-- under each arm. But when we went to the train station, there was a lot of people with more stuff than there was said. So I don' ; t know whether they didn' ; t allow them to carry the rest of that stuff or not, but we followed order by doing so and the five kids factors how to do that so-- SK:00:18:44We had more time to get our stuff ready. ' ; Cause I think even they moved in like February, March? PA:00:18:56Yeah the order came out SK:00:19:01And we didn' ; t have to move until July. So we had more time. AT:00:19:09Did your parents try to make any arrangements with, with the farmer? Or with the property? SK:00:19:16The farm was was supposed to have been taken over by the fruit growers association that was run by the-- and you know, everybody just bought the fruit packaged--fruit there and then they, the fruit company will sell off to Chicago, New York or where ever. And they were supposed to take over the farm and everything, but the people that came in, was a Portuguese family is what I understood because I didn' ; t go back until after the wars, but I didn' ; t know a thing about them. They must have been there about three, four years. I know when my folks moved --when the camps closed, they went back and they want move on the farm, ' ; cause in another year or soon they could take over the farm. So we stayed there. So my, my brother, he went back from Chicago. SK:00:20:36I think it was in about ' ; 48, ' ; 47--oh ' ; 47 I think he went back and, he asked his friend-- his classmate who was an attorney, you know, he wanted to know what the-- what the deal was and told them, they didn' ; t pay the property tax. So they were going to take over the farm or whatever. So my brother paid the fine whatever it was. And they got, that' ; s how they got the farm and then these people moved out. AT:00:21:16Wow. SK:00:21:16Yeah. So that' ; s how-- a lot of people just lost their farm because, they didn' ; t pay the property tax. Well, they didn' ; t know where to send the property tax to. Yeah. You know, so they didn' ; t pay. AT:00:21:46And so where, when--when your family was, had all of your bags and everything, where, where did you go? PA:00:21:56We went to the train station. We were told to be at the train station at a certain time. We went down there and got ready to board the train that was going to take us to Santa Anita. AT:00:22:15At that point, did you have tags for your luggage and everything? Like a family number?-- SK:00:22:24Yeah, they gave you a family number. Yeah. PA:00:22:32Tagged us like a piece of meat. AT:00:22:34Do you remember your number, your family number? PA:00:22:38No. SK:00:22:38Mine was 3-8-8 something.I don' ; t know. The first three number but 38849 or something like that. PA:00:22:42My dad took care of all that, so. AT:00:22:49And, and Mrs. Kimura, did your family go to a train station or how did you?-- SK:00:22:54Yeah, that part. I know we had to sell the car and some--- I think the people who bought the car took us to one meeting place and the meeting place is where they had trucks and --and as far as I can remember is that we all got together and we got onto the truck and, and we went to the train station. So--' ; cause everybody sold the car. But we-- we didn' ; t have electricity until, I think it was ' ; 39, 1939 or something. And just before the war broke out, my dad got a refrigerator for my mom and a radio for us kids. And my mom, oh, when they came and took the refrigerator, she cried. That' ; s the first time I seen her cry. Yeah, that' ; s, until then we had the ice box, you know -- [chuckles]. And, well on the farm you have guns--you know-- or rifles and radio. They had to-- we had to take that to a police station. I don' ; t know where they store it, but after the war, you know, we got those back and the other stuff that we stored on the farm or the neighbor' ; s place, we never got back. But those things, I think the gun, the rifle and the-- refrigerator-- I mean the gun and the radio we got back. So I don' ; t know where they kept it ' ; cause we weren' ; t the only Oriental that had the radio or guns, you know. But I' ; m sure everybody who stored it got theirs back. AT:00:25:09Do you remember any of the things that either you or your family packed to take with you? SK:00:25:17They what? AT:00:25:18Do you remember what you--what you packed and brought with you to camp? SK:00:25:22Oh well clothing, really. Yeah. ' ; Cause we couldn' ; t take mu--just one -- PA:00:25:29Only she can carry -- can' ; t put frying pans or whatever there, they carried. SK:00:25:36Well, all the books and records and all the photograph--I know, we burned it. PA:00:25:42My parents--my father burned it, because he thought he was going to get, they' ; re going to come and get him because he was a president of one Japanese organization. So they would--they were--everyday the FBI would come and pick up, you know, the father and my dad would come back from downtown and say, they took so and so' ; s father you know today. And then next day he would come and tell us they took some other father away. So he antic-- he anticipated that he would be taken away since he was one of the first presidents of one organization, you know. And, but by that time the evacuation order came to, so I guess that probably saved him from being taken away. AT:00:26:40Which organization was he president of?-- PA:00:26:41I don' ; t know it. Some Japanese organization that-- You know they had church organizations, community leaders, you know. SK:00:26:53Yeah, they took all the community leaders and anybody, anybody with any authority. PA:00:27:00Authority. Yeah. Yeah. So to the, you know, keep themselves being accused of being, you know, favorable to Japan. And they, my dad would burn all the pictures and the records and this and that, you know, photos because he didn' ; t want to be implicated. So he spent one--one night burning that stuff. Like you would normally would do if you committed a crime, even though we didn' ; t commit any crime, you know. What are you going to do? AT:00:27:41That must' ; ve been very hard- PA:00:27:43Yeah. [Pause]. But we were one of the lucky ones who got spared ' ; cause other -- other families had--had the father taken away. It was disorganized. AT:00:28:08So your-- your families got--got ready to leave and then your family went to Santa Anita? PA:00:28:19Yeah. AT:00:28:20And then Mrs. Kimura, where did your family go? SK:00:28:23Over to Tule Lake, direct-- we didn' ; t go to any assembly center, so that' ; s why we went in July. We were about the last section, last people to -- going to camp. AT:00:28:40What were your first impressions of--of Santa Anita and Tule Lake? What were they like? PA:00:28:49Oh, Santa Anita is a racetrack, you know, so where we were, they be- built army barracks out of the parking lot. So, since, you know, our family was seven of us, they put us right into the, those barracks, you know, brand new barracks and single people and couples or whatever it is, they put them into the stables, you know, where they kept Seabiscuit and all the--the asphalt, the asphalted floor and they put cots in there. And when it got warm the cots would sink into the asphalt, you know and the smell of the, you know, because they just paved over there and think of when it got hot, you smell the manure, or whatever it is. And they only had one light, you know, come out from the, from the-- SK:00:29:55We' ; re in the center of the room. PA:00:29:57Yeah. SK:00:29:57We were in the center of the room, yeah. PA:00:29:58Well, that' ; s all stables are like that. SK:00:30:00One light? PA:00:30:00They only have one light anyway. Yeah. So they had only one light. It was bad for them. AT:00:30:10And so were you in a room with just your family? PA:00:30:12Huh? AT:00:30:12Were you in a room with just your family? PA:00:30:16Yeah, they had, you know--they had this barrack and they sectioned it off, you know, into thirds or whatever, you know. And we stayed in there well ' ; till we left for Poston, you know. AT:00:30:37And what were your first impressions of Tule Lake? SK:00:30:40Tule Lake? The first thing was I never seen so many Japanese people in my life. [Susie Kimura begins to laugh.] PA:00:30:45That' ; s what I said--when I went to the train station, same thing. I said, where the heck did these people come from [Both laughing] This is all the, you know, they would come from the county, they were farmers. So they came from San Diego County, you know. I said gee where did these guys come from? [Both laughing]. SK:00:31:06Yeah- AT:00:31:06And--and what was the arrangement for, for your family? SK:00:31:14Well, it was almost the same thing, we had to meet at a certain place. And then from there-- they brought us to the train station and we stayed on a train for one-- one and a half days or something like that before we went to Tule Lake. AT:00:31:33Had you ever been on a train before? SK:00:31:35No. Never. Oh no. Well, I can' ; t say never, they took--my folks took me to Japan when I was five years old, so I got on a train and, but that part, I don' ; t remember too, too much. AT:00:31:55And, what about the living situation at Tule Lake? SK:00:32:00In Tule Lake? Well, they had just built our section in Tule Lake, so, the water was hard and, when we went to latrine, it was all open. Everything was open. In the shower, you took shower, you know with everybody else. So it was kind of embarrassing, you know, but if you have to do it, you do it-- AT:00:32:30And--and you had quite a large family-- SK:00:32:32Yeah, there were 10 of us yeah. So we got two rooms. So, the kids had-- five of us was in one room. And the younger ones were with my mom and dad. AT:00:32:50What was the, the ages of, of your family? Like how old was the youngest? SK:00:32:55Youngest was three and-- AT:00:33:02And, you had one sibling older than you who was there? SK:00:33:05Yeah, my older brother, he was two and a half years older than I. AT:00:33:10So 20? at the time?-- SK:00:33:12Yea, well he was in junior college. Yeah. Yeah. AT:00:33:16Did he -- did he go with your family to Tule Lake? SK:00:33:19Oh yea, we all went. That' ; s one thing though, they kept the family together. PA:00:33:22Yeah, that' ; s nice. SK:00:33:22That was kind of nice. PA:00:33:28Yeah. When it took the father away, means everything is, you know, fell onto the, the responsibility fell onto the kids and they don' ; t know how to handle all that stuff, you know. Very disorganized. AT:00:33:46And did you two know other families or friends in camp? PA and SK:00:33:52Oh yeah. PA:00:33:52The ones that lived in town we knew and my dad probably knew some farmers too because he had his, you know, men furnishings. So people come, you know, because that' ; s one thing bad is that, you only have, only have Japanese customers, you know, and, so your ki-- clientele is kinda slim, you know, compared to if you could have a mixture of Caucasians and other nationalities. So-- SK:00:34:28One thing that I think I could remember that was kind of nice was that, they asked you would-- do you, you know, they didn' ; t want to separate the family-- So who would you like to be near you or be with you or, or something of that sort. And, my--my brother--my father' ; s younger brother was always with us, so my uncle was always together, you know, our uncle' ; s family. And so my maiden name was Morimoto, so we put Morimoto, you know. So here comes, this is in the block, you know, in the camp, here comes my two cousins, Morimoto, right next to in the next barrack and we never--. And they were -- they were from Lodi, which is in the--way down, you know, further down and, so we were so surprised. But, you know I think they try to [inaudible] maybe to make you feel better or I don' ; t know. AT:00:35:46What about school friends? Were any of your close friends from, from growing up or friends from school-- PA:00:35:54Yeah, yeah. SK:00:35:54We were all, we were all separated in different barracks. Yeah. AT:00:36:01But-- but you were in Tule Lake with?-- SK:00:36:05Yea, Tule Lake but all different blocks. So you know somebody was way 10 blocks away or something. Yeah. PA:00:36:20Yeah, we made friends though that' ; s the thing and we had more chance to meet friends and girls and so. SK:00:36:25So, on--on, the farm you know, your neighbors are so far away. PA:00:36:38Yeah. SK:00:36:38So, we don' ; t have too many friends. So my sister, my younger sister, she said she never had so much fun in camp-- ' ; cause she didn' ; t have to work, you know, and she got to make friends. AT:00:36:59And what about school? Did you continue going to school in camp? PA:00:37:03Did we what? AT:00:37:03Did you continue going to school? SK:00:37:08There was nothing. Yeah, there was nothing after high school in camp. PA:00:37:12I--they made me a manager of, well I was a go-go--gofer a job at the school. AT:00:37:25I' ; m sorry you were, what did you do? PA:00:37:33You know, I was like a gofer, you know, gofer this, gofer that. I was supposed to be a manager or something. I worked for the school so--got minimum--minimum pay. AT:00:37:46And what did you do in camp? Did you work ? SK:00:37:49Secretary or office work, yeah-- AT:00:37:53In what office? SK:00:37:56Well, worked in block manager' ; s office for awhile and also at the administration office, yeah. AT:00:38:02So was there a manager for each block? SK:00:38:10Yeah. Block manager. AT:00:38:11And what was their role or duty? SK:00:38:14Anything that the [inaudible] PA:00:38:19Any complaints. You go to the manager. He supposed to-- supposed to eradicate it [both chuckling] but they don' ; t have no more power than anybody else. AT:00:38:36And, what other--what other memories do you have from camp? How was the food? PA:00:38:42The food was terrible until, you know, later on the food got better. But, I remember we had squid for about three or four days and they -- SK:00:38:54And we never had squid. So each camp was different. PA:00:38:58Yeah. You know, they had whatever was available that' ; s what it was. So they would cook the squids in different-different ways, you know, trying to get us to eat it. I don' ; t think anybody ate it. [Both chuckling] So they would go to--so the parents would send their kids to the canteen. They had a canteen there, and they would buy whatever crackers or potato chips or whatever to supplement until the food got a little bit better, you know. But after a while everything, you know, the farmers, they adapted to camp life and they started making big plots of--and we started getting better food. So that was nice. SK:00:39:46Yeah, I remember. PA:00:39:49Very industrious. SK:00:39:49Yeah, I remember getting nothing but lamb and curry and they didn' ; t get it. In fact, when we went to Amache, Colorado, never had it. So each camp had different food. PA:00:40:09Depending on your small supplier. AT:00:40:13So did you-you went to Amache after Tule Lake? SK:00:40:17Mhm. AT:00:40:18When was that? SK:00:40:20I think a year later, after a year later, the only thing I could remember is maybe like in September end of September or something, when they started-- people are, some people were called dissident. Then they divided us up. So my dad was, he had trouble with his leg and gangrene set in his leg. So you were able to pick what camp would you want to go-- Because Tule Lake was going to be dissident camp. So my dad said he wanted to go where it wasn' ; t cold because of his leg. So he said he would like to go to Amache and that' ; s where-- PA:00:41:18That' ; s cold air. SK:00:41:19Yeah. It was cold. But it wasn' ; t as cold as -- mountains -- AT:00:41:22So -- they gave your parents like a list or something of all of the different camps? SK:00:41:34I guess that' ; s what it is. Oh, my dad--you know, the Japanese style is you don' ; t tell everything to your kids. You' ; re more or less the head of the family makes decide something and that' ; s it. Right. And we follow-- PA:00:41:55He' ; s the authority. PA:00:41:57At the camp though, the parents lost a lot of authority ' ; cause the kids, and there was no discipline ' ; cause you know, you know, how camp life was. So they lost control of the kids, I don' ; t know about you but I know our camp, you know, they had problems, the younger kids. SK:00:42:18The kids became more powerful than the parents because they understood English and they knew what was going on and they were more stronger, you know, whereas the Isseis, they more or less-- PA:00:42:40Well, they were older too. Most of them, most of them were in at the-- period in life that they could you know, really take it easy, ' ; cause the kids were in high school, ready to go to college. SK:00:42:56Yeah. PA:00:42:58It was hard on them. So it' ; s pretty hard to get a good story from the kids now ' ; cause they don' ; t remember anything but having fun. [Both laughing] AT:00:43:11Would you two have gone to college after high school? Or do you think you would' ; ve started working? If you weren' ; t in camp- PA:00:43:18I don' ; t know. I think for me, I think camp, camp life kind of made me lose my ambition for anything. More or less. SK:00:43:32But after a year and a half or something when you could go out to the college-- Yeah. PA:00:43:37Yeah. Well, they had the Quakers were helping out too. SK:00:43:42Oh yeah? PA:00:43:43A lot of kids who went out, and they financed their education. We had a lot of-- nice people, you know, outside, but there were very few that [inaudible] and more of them. They had this problem. AT:00:44:09And then Mrs. Kimura, how long was your family at Amache? SK:00:44:11Amache? Well, we were in Tule Lake oh about a year. And then the in Amache until the camp closed, the day they left. My dad had his leg amputated in Amache so, they stayed on until, and then the people moved out, move out of the farm so they had no place to go. So they stayed until it' ; s time to close up the camp. Yeah. But I, I came to Chicago in May of ' ; 24, May of ' ; 44 AT:00:44:57And, how did--how did Amache compare to Tule Lake? SK:00:45:02Oh, it was more, it wasn' ; t more like camp anymore. It was, it was more, they were more friendly. And it seemed as though, you know, people who were more friendlier and they had more activities and--and the food was entirely different. You know from camp. AT:00:45:30Was it any better than?-- SK:00:45:33Oh yeah. I was working at the office-- grammar school office. Yeah. I think maybe five months, six months before I came. AT:00:45:58And then, so when, well so you went to Chicago before the war ended? SK:00:46:07[Nods " ; Yes" ; .] --That' ; s right when they were--when people were going out to colleges and then they had the--the draft, the draft thing? They came in and they wanted volunteers. PA:00:46:27Yeah. SK:00:46:28Yeah. There' ; s a lot of them that volunteered but then after that it got open to wherever you wanted to go, we could go except for the West Coast. PA:00:46:38Yeah. And to be clear-- SK:00:46:45So I came to Chicago and my first job was $25 a week. AT:00:46:57And, and how about you? When did you, did you leave? Well, did you all leave with your families or did you leave before?-- PA:00:47:04I left. My family stayed in camp and I--my sister went back to San Diego to finish her college education and I went to fix up the house. You know, ' ; cause we had rented it, we were one of the lucky ones that was able to keep our house and so it was rented and we rented, rented it out. So, I went back to fix it up for my parents when they come back, so-- AT:00:47:41You were able to go back to San Diego? PA:00:47:42Oh yeah, I was cleared. I was cleared. I was cleared two times. One time when I went to the camp he was in --where she was--where she was Tule Lake [pointing to Susie Kimura] to harvest, harvest the vegetables that they planted over there. They had a strike up there for some reason. I don' ; t remember what it was. SK:00:48:04Yeah, they had a lot of strikes up there. PA:00:48:04And so they-- so they went to the--to the other camps to--recruit some workers to go up there and harvest. So a bunch of us younger guys went up there and we were threatened, we were threatened for coming up there [begins to chuckle] to do their work but we went out there. AT:00:48:29And then--and then where did you go from there? From San Diego-- PA:00:48:35I stay, well, I was--stayed there a couple of years and then I went back east. AT:00:48:42Did your-- did your family come to join you in San Diego? PA:00:48:46Oh yeah. They came back because I fixed the house up. AT:00:48:50What year was that? PA:00:48:52Well, ' ; 40, ' ; 44, ' ; 45, somewhere around there because they were closing the camps up and throwing everybody out so-- AT:00:49:03And then where did-- you said you headed east? PA:00:49:06I went to New York and then stayed there a couple of years then and then I come, came to Chicago and been here ever since. AT:00:49:16What year did you come to Chicago? PA:00:49:19' ; 48. AT:00:49:21And what were you doing in New York? PA:00:49:23What? AT:00:49:23What were you doing in New York? PA:00:49:26Oh, I worked for a place that made diamond rings and stuff. And we--we, you know, we polished it, you know, we were making them. AT:00:49:40What were your first impressions of New York? PA:00:49:44I liked New York, but I fooled around too much so, I decided to go to Chicago. AT:00:49:55And so for both of you, your decisions to come to Chicago, did you have family or friends here? PA:00:50:03He did--she did. Her family came to Chicago, right. [Paul Arakawa turns to Susie Kimura] Your family came to Chicago? SK:00:50:10No--I was the only one. PA:00:50:10Oh, you were the only one? SK:00:50:10And my brother, yeah, my brother, my brother came with uh, Mills Rose Garden. Did you hear of them? They were from, I think Chicago area, and I thought he came with one other block person and I don' ; t know how he landed in, [inaudible], you know, ' ; cause, as far as I knew, he-- he went out with the-- the world' ; s premier rose garden, you know, they were hiring workers and--and my girlfriend said, come on out, you know, to Chicago, so that' ; s why I came out. Yeah. I came out from Amache, and the closest to that town from Amache was Chicago. And then when I came-- PA:00:51:14Right in the middle-- SK:00:51:15Yeah. When I came, oh my God, it was so dirty, the--the paper and everything was flying all over, you didn' ; t see that? [Susie Kimura turns to Paul Arakawa to ask]. And then they told me, oh, the Chicago was the most segregated town. The Blacks could live here and they can go this far. And, I don' ; t know how my girlfriend got a room. Well, she got a room on South Side, right by the church. Yeah. Where the church started, yeah. AT:00:51:49Is that BTC? Buddhist Temple of Chicago? SK:00:51:50Yeah, about a block, block and a half away from there. AT:00:51:58That' ; s where you first lived? SK:00:51:59[Nods " ; yes" ; ] and Hyde Park area. And we had to take the L to work, you know, to downtown And downtown wasn' ; t that clean either, you know, but, but it' ; s clean now. I mean, you know, I think they did a good job in cleaning up Chicago. AT:00:52:29And how did you end up in Chicago or why--why was Chicago the place to come? PA:00:52:36I don' ; t know, I just came here. AT:00:52:38Did you know people? PA:00:52:39I knew a couple people so--. AT:00:52:39And what did you do when you got here? PA:00:52:51Well, I ended up at the post office after a few years and that' ; s why I stayed. SK:00:52:56Chicago was one of the towns that, welcomed you, you know, they--they wanted the workers. They were short workers so, they more or less , you know, welcome you. PA:00:53:14Yeah. SK:00:53:18I think it' ; s because a lot of the boys went into service and they were short of help and--and I think that' ; s where the Oriental fitted in. AT:00:53:35And which-- which part of the city or which neighborhood did you first stay? PA:00:53:46Let' ; s see. Well, I lived in-- moved to the South Side of--then Lake Park, 4000 and Lake Park. And then I moved to the Lake, the Lakeview area. And then I got married and went to the South Side and then that was it. Then, moved out to the suburbs. AT:00:54:17What year did you move to Lakeview and then how long were you there? PA:00:54:21Gee, I don' ; t remember [pause] I don' ; t --exactly remember-- AT:00:54:21What year did you move out of the city? PA:00:54:35When did I move out of the city? Moved out in-- [pauses] Gee--' ; 95, I don' ; t know exactly. AT:00:54:52And how about you Mrs. Kimura? When did you move from Hyde Park? Where did you go from there? SK:00:55:05I went to housekeeping, you know babysitting so, that I could save some money, you know, so I stayed with a Jewish family and took-- babysat for the kids and then worked during the day. AT:00:55:24Where did they live? SK:00:55:25They lived in Rogers Park. AT:00:55:30And then when--when did you move to the suburbs? AT:00:55:33When I got married, my husband was gonna open up a TV, TV business or something. So he had a place in Morton Grove, so-- AT:00:55:48And so how did you two meet? How long have you known each other? SK:00:55:56When did you get married? [Susie Kimura is asking Paul Arakawa.] PA:00:55:57I got married in ' ; 58. SK:00:55:57' ; 58. That' ; s how long---I know--because I' ; m related to his wife. PA:00:56:01I married --I married her relative. So-- AT:00:56:14And what-- what' ; s her name and how is she related to you? SK:00:56:18This goes back way to my great, great, great, great grandma-- grandparents-- someplace along the line. So I think we' ; re about what third, fourth, fifth cousins or something. PA:00:56:31Everybody was trying to figure that out. [Both laugh] AT:00:56:38And when you came to Chicago, did you experience any kind of prejudice or?-- SK:00:56:48Oh yeah. Oh yeah. When I was walking to catch the L, I know some guy said to go back to where you came from. [Both Kimura and Arakawa laugh] .Yeah. So I-- usually used to avoid everybody. You know, when I' ; m walking, if I see somebody, I would go on the next street or, or is it or so, so where am I gonna go? Huh? This is my country. But that wasn' ; t, there weren' ; t too many. But you know, every once in a while I met those people. AT:00:57:41And if you two could leave any kind of message or, or legacy with your children and your grandchildren, what would you want to leave them with? SK:00:57:54Enjoy life. [Both Kimura and Arakawa laugh] PA:00:58:02So far, you kids are doing pretty good. SK:00:58:04Yeah. Yeah. [Pauses] They' ; re Americanized. They' ; re respected and they don' ; t get into trouble. And I think--I think I' ; m grateful that my kids aren' ; t in a police list or something, you know, that they came out okay. Where you see all these other people who they go join the gangs and things. And I--I think the Oriental people did pretty good, you know. AT:00:59:06And anything you would want to leave your, your kids and grand-kids knowing? PA:00:59:09What, what? AT:00:59:11Anything that you would like to leave with your children and your grandchildren or that you would want them to know? PA:00:59:20I' ; m leaving my money to them. [Both Kimura and Arakawa laugh] SK:00:59:20Enjoy life. PA:00:59:30They all got, you know good jobs-- SK:00:59:33They' ; re doing real good, yeah. PA:00:59:35Yeah, and they' ; re not into drugs, or you know-- so, I' ; m happy about that. AT:00:59:43Well, thank you so much for--for taking the time to speak with me. Is--is there anything you' ; d want to add or that I might' ; ve missed in our conversation? PA:00:59:58I guess in a way, in a way, this incarceration was in a way it was pretty nice, because everybody, you know, all the kids are able to get a job, what they went to college for. Because before they used to, finish college education and they couldn' ; t get jobs so they would have to go back to the farm and work on a farm or whatever. Whatever parents whatever business their parents were in but now they can go to get jobs for they-- you know, what they went to college for. So that' ; s the way I think it-- evacuation-- then we don' ; t live in clusters like we used to, you know, the Japanese town. And I think that helped too. We were more, we was, you know, more or less assimilated into the society now than we were before so in a way that you know that evacuation kind of helped. Huh? [Arakawa turns to Kimura]. SK:01:01:21I think without the evacuation, I don' ; t think I' ; ll be here. PA:01:01:24Yeah. SK:01:01:24I' ; d be still in California, I think, you know, which isn' ; t bad, but I mean, I don' ; t like the climate here. But the people who were in--more friendlier here than they were back home. In our town. PA:01:01:47Yeah, I don' ; t know. I think it' ; s changed a lot though. SK:01:01:48Yeah. [Long pause] I know my brother in law told me, he says-- his father had a store and he says, no Japs around, you know , No Japs allowed or around or something like that. And--and when he came back and ran into him, he, apologized and he says I am so sorry. We have--my dad put that sign up. So I think that' ; s a good thing. PA:01:02:36You know Dr. [inaudible]? [Arakawa is asking Kimura] SK:01:02:40No. PA:01:02:40' ; Cause he was real active in the JACL. He said, he said that, he--he asked this Italian guy in town, how can I get more, you know, Caucasian customers, you know, because he' ; s a, he was in dentistry, you know, only customers he has is Japanese. So he said he wanted to increase his clientele. So he asked this Italian guy, he' ; s a lawyer and --young guy--asked him, you know, how he can get, you know, different clientele. So the, this guys says, oh, I' ; ll look into that. So he went to the sons and daughters of the Golden West. He said he was shocked. He was shocked the way they, they characterized us. Yeah. So, so he still didn' ; t get no new customers, because the funny thing that this guy learned that, you know, that there' ; s such prejudice towards us. That was funny. AT:01:04:02Well, thank you so much again. PA:01:04:03Okay. Sorry--[audio cuts off] Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ArakawaPaul_KimuraSusie20170915.xml ArakawaPaul_KimuraSusie20170915.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Arakawa, Paul and Kimura, Susie (9/15/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Arakawa was born in San Diego, California and grew up in town. Susie Kimura was born in Newcastle, California but grew up on a fruit farm in Auburn, a more rural upbringing. In this interview they discuss their adolescence, where they were when Pearl Harbor was bombed, and the process of their forced evacuation. They discuss the losses they experienced as their lives were uprooted, such as how their fathers burned personal materials for the families' safety due to heightened suspicion against people of Japanese descent. Paul Arakawa's family was initially sent to the Santa Anita detention facility, which was a converted race track, before being sent to Poston. Susie Kimura's family was sent to Tule Lake and then transferred to Amache. Both discuss the food and environment of these incarceration camps. They also discuss how they arrived in Chicago, the prejudice they faced, and how they came to know each other.
Date
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2017-09-15
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Kirkwood, Sam
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Chikahisa, Frances
Interview Keyword
Maryknoll School
Los Angeles
Social work
Picture bride
Santa Anita
Tuberculosis
Catholic
Racism
Chicago
Seattle
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/16/2017 Chikahisa, Frances (9/16/2017) 1:00:06 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Maryknoll School Los Angeles Social work Picture bride Santa Anita Tuberculosis Catholic Racism Chicago Seattle Chikahisa, Frances Kirkwood, Sam video 0 https://vimeo.com/304427553 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/304427553?h=70c6e6da54" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Frances Chikahisa was born and raised in Los Angeles before being incarcerated at Santa Anita and then Rohwer. In adulthood she pursued a career as a social work psycho-therapist, eventually moving to Chicago and later Seattle to be closer to her daughter's family. In this interview, she discusses her family [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Sam Kirkwood:00:00:01Alright. My name is Sam Kirkwood and I am here with... Frances C.:00:00:04My name is...I go by Frances Chikahisa. But my legal name is Michiko. SK:00:00:11Michiko. FC:00:00:11And um, I' ; ve stopped using it when I got into graduate school and started my professional life. It was easier not to have Michiko and Michiko Frances became to be- and with the last name like Chikahisa it was more laborious for people to try to remember my full name. So I' ; ve- in Chicago, people have known me as Frances. SK:00:00:40Right. FC:00:00:41Um, and I' ; m formerly from Los Angeles. I was born in Los Angeles city. SK:00:00:46Oh wow. FC:00:00:47And um... SK:00:00:48So- FC:00:00:48Went to camp from Los Angeles and actually returned to Los Angeles as soon as, uh, we were released from camps because we have a home, we never sold the house that we had, so we had a home to go to. All the furnishings were in the house. And the reason we were able to keep it was my father had a Mexican American fa- man, that was his employee and he had a business that was w- all otherwise Japanese American young men, he had a wholesale produce business in Los Angeles. And he had this one Mexican fellow, so he let them stay in our house. And during the war that was helpful for them because they had rent control and housing was really tough. So he stayed there the whole time and as soon as we got released, he left the house for us. SK:00:01:50Wow. FC:00:01:51So we didn' ; t have to sell anything. So we also had a car and um, that' ; s another story about the car. So anyway, after the war, 1945, we returned to Los Angeles and then I was one year left to go to high school. Graduated, went to UCLA for two years. And then my family finally allowed me to become a baptized Catholic, which is what we- I had always wanted. But my father said I had to be old enough to know what I was doing. So when I was mid-college he said, you- all right, you could, you could do that too. Then I went to a Catholic women' ; s college and went from there and worked a little bit, but I went on to graduate school and graduated from USC School of Social Work and I practiced as a social worker in California and I had a private practice. I saw a lot of Sansei couples. I also work with a lot of young kids who were, you know, dropouts from school, having difficulty finding their place. And anyway, so I, um, I did that until, um, I can' ; t remember. It was in 1998 that I decided to move to Chicago ' ; cause in the meantime, my daughter married a young man from the Midwest. He was, and so he wanted, he was doing his medical residency in Los Angeles when she met him. Uh, but he wanted- didn' ; t want to live in California as he wanted to come back to Chicago. So, um, he came and my, my daughter came with him and in the meantime, my husband, her father, my husband passed away. And so, um, my family said, well, my son in law, and my daughter said, um, as I get older, they would, if I wanted to remain in California, they had no problem me staying. But it meant a little bit inconvenience for them to have to go back and forth. So you' ; re, yeah, my son in law said, ' ; Well, you' ; re, you still have enough life in you. You could go and create a life of your own and Chicago so why don' ; t you consider moving?' ; So by this time, grandchildren started to, you know, two were on the way. So of course I' ; m not gonna want to stay in California when they' ; re here. So I agreed to move and came here in 98 and um, live by myself. I had bought a condo and off of Lake Shore Drive and uh, they lived in walking distance, but I didn' ; t live with them. And then, um, JASC wanted had, had a Japanese-speaking social worker who, um, left the agency. And so they were asking around for somebody who could maybe do some bilingual kind of counseling. Now I can speak, but I can' ; t read and write because my formal education in Japanese was interrupted during the war years, you know, so I never learned to really read or write, but, um, you know, I always was able to carry on a conversation and there were some Japanese speaking clients here in Chicago, so they hired me at, um, as a part time social worker at JASC. And so that' ; s how I really got established here in Chicago. And the, the demand for me to work with Japanese-speaking clients, you know, was, did not increase. It was tapering off because some of these folks were getting pretty old and passing away. So, but I stayed on as a social worker and developed some programs for the aging within the community. And I was, I was, things were really going along quite well. And I was there at the point that Mike Takada became the director of the agency. But then in the meantime, my daughter and her husband and the two grandkids decided that they needed to move because my son-in-law took a job in Seattle. SK:00:06:52Oh wow. FC:00:06:52And, uh, so my- I was approached to consider moving and living with them and, um, you know, I' ; m 88 years old, so it was not very a, I mean, a future for me to remain active and healthy was unpredictable. You know, anything could have changed my health condition and my ability to live by myself. So I said, okay, I' ; ll, I' ; ll go with you. So the last oh about three and a half years I went, were living in Seattle and I must say that the, this move to Seattle was a lot more difficult. It was doubly. It was a double adjustment because I didn' ; t know anybody in the Seattle community and I had never lived with my in- my son-in-law and my daughter and their family. Uh, so I gave up my independent life and I moved to a community where I did not know a single Japanese American. And, uh, it took me a while to get it. And I still don' ; t have much connection with the Japanese American community, but I, um, I' ; m a practicing Catholic. I found a very, very welcoming parish, Catholic parish run by the Jesuits. And you know, their philosophy is so much more liberal than the standard Catholic parishes. So I found my home there. So I' ; m getting finally settled and I' ; m looking forward to, to many, many, many happy years ahead. SK:00:08:45Good, good. FC:00:08:47But I think you want to have some record of our experience in the war years and our family history. Phil- I alluded to it earlier, but I went to a Catholic Japanese Catholic mission school in Los Angeles. I don' ; t know if you' ; ve heard of it, but it' ; s called Maryknoll School. The whole school was children of Japanese immigrants. School was located just outside of Little Tokyo. And the good thing was they had bus service. So we lived quite a ways away from the school, but we had transportation every day to and from school. And of course, uh, the nuns were the, our instructors. And as I said earlier, my father and, my father and mother uh, were Protestants religiously. There were no, I was, our family was never Buddhist. And, um, so they' ; d had a little bit difficultly because they had found loyalty to this Protestant community church. But anyway, they, uh, so, but they allowed us to go to Maryknoll School because they believed in the education and they taught Japanese as one of the classes. So I didn' ; t have to consider going to a special language school. And so my father, um, had this produce wholesale produce building business in Los Angeles and was doing quite well. I must say that we lived a very middle-class life in Los Angeles at that point. And, uh, uh, so, uh, life was, was really pretty good for us. And then of course the war came along and because my, my father never supported any of the national, he never donated to any of the national Japanese organizations. Um, he had left Japan and he wasn' ; t not interested in returning. So, uh, he was perfectly happy for us to live an American life. But of course the war comes along and he had to sell his business. And we, the interesting anecdote is as soon as Pearl Harbor was, you know, occurred, my father said, ' ; I have to go, I have to have a good car cause I have to go up and down the coast to get the farmers to give me the produce so I have business' ; . So he went out and bought himself a brand new Chrysler Imperial in December, 1941. SK:00:11:44Wow. FC:00:11:45Never thinking that anything was going to happen to us. And he always said maybe our first generation, the Isseis, might have to be interrogated and treated differently, but he said, " ; You guys are all Americans. They' ; re not gonna touch you' ; . Well, famous last words, right? So, um, anyway, here we are getting word that we probably can' ; t even stay in California. My father' ; s got a brand new car. We got a house full of furniture, you know, and uh, the school, as soon as we knew we were going to evacuate, Maryknoll School had to shut down because there were no students anymore. All the Japanese students were all going to camp. So, um, you know, our life was really turned upside down. In the meantime, um, in 1937, my father took us all to Japan for a three month vacation and he went because he had never met his in-laws. My mother was a picture bride. She came from Japan, already married, and he never knew, it was an arranged marriage so he never knew her family. And it wasn' ; t until years later that I discovered that they, her family did not approve of her marrying and going into the US but she was stubborn and she decided she' ; s gonna move, you know, make the transition anyway. So, she was pretty well disowned by her family when she came to the states because they, she came without getting permission from them. So my father had, uh, you know, it was important for him to go back to Japan to prove to his in-laws that he was a decent person, that he took good care of us. So 1937, we all went to Japan for the summer. That was the year China and Japan went to war. So in July of ' ; 37, Japan declared war on China. So we go- we saw the beginning of a military lifestyle in Japan. They were always guys being drafted to go to serve, to war, but we, we only stayed in the summer and then returned. My father had said later that he had made this trip thinking that he had made it, you know enough money in the US that he thought he could return and retire in Japane- in Japan and, uh, have a nice life. But once he got to Japan, he realized how Americanized he had gotten and he found the society too constricting. And he said, ' ; this isn' ; t for me' ; . So he was the first one that said, um you know, ' ; we got to get to California' ; [laughs]. So then we know, we get back but what happens in what, three years? SK:00:15:01Yeah. FC:00:15:02War...war is started. So, um, we went from, we went to Santa Anita Assembly Center, um, and while we were there, my youn- older sister had an attack of appendicitis and medical services were very limited in the camp and you had to wait long. And you know, it wasn' ; t easy to get there. And so by the time she was seen by the doctor, her appendix had ruptured. And so she had to have immediate surgery. And you know, they did the surgery in the veterinary surgical unit at Santa Anita that they use for the horses. SK:00:15:49Wow. FC:00:15:50That was the operating table was a table that they operated on for horses. But anyway, she survived because the doctor who took care of her was a Nisei doctor who had been trained in Berkeley and he didn' ; t, he learned how to use sulfa drugs, which it was just new on the market just before penicillin. And so he, you know, spread, he sprinkled the sulfa drug in, internally, which saved her life. So here he is, an internee, who was a physician operating in a horse veterinary hospital surgery and saves my sister' ; s life. Wow. But secondarily, she was so weakened that she couldn' ; t travel. Plus, so she developed tuberculosis and the internal camps we were about ready to be moved into rural, um, did not have facilities for communicable diseases. So, uh, they couldn' ; t, she couldn' ; t get authorization to go inland, but they had two tuberculosis sanitariums set aside, one in San Francisco and one in southern California. And they put all these Japanese who were actively tuberculous into in these two sanitariums, you know, so she was put there because her appendicitis had pretty much cleared up, but she now had TB. And so she spent the, those three, the three years we were an internal camp she stayed in the sanitarium in La Crescenta, California. SK:00:17:46How old were you all? FC:00:17:47Huh? SK:00:17:47How old were you all? FC:00:17:48I was, uh, well I had just finished the eighth grade. I was 13 going on 14. SK:00:17:54Wow. How old was she? FC:00:17:55She was 19. SK:00:17:58Wow. FC:00:17:59Yeah. So, um, you know, and they put a MP guard at the gate of the sanitarium, they still had that if anybody you know, wanted. And then, you know, those days they put sanitariums on the hillside so you were not on down and flat. So if anybody decided to escape, they' ; d have to run down these hills. And many of ' ; em were so sick that they would' ; ve start hemorrhaging and probably die on the spot. So to put a MP guard with these very, very sick patients, that was so crazy. But anyway, she was there. And she recovered and was about ready to be discharged when the ban could be- was lifted and we could return to California. So we were prepared to come back. In the meantime, I' ; m going to high school and, or my younger sister is in junior high and, uh, she contracts valley fever, which is a fungal infection of the lungs. And so she goes into the hospital and then she doesn' ; t get over it right away, instead develops center pleurisy and then becomes tuberculosis. Pleurisy is like a cousin of tuberculosis. So she' ; s how old she was, um, I was 15, she was 13 and she was in the hospital and so she wasn' ; t even- she was sick and they were arranging for her to go into a sanitarium in California as soon as we got back. So when we returned to Los Angeles, my older sister was discharged, my younger sister was hospitalized, so they traded places, but we had the home, you know, so my, we, we started out, my father was way too old now ' ; cause three years he was in his, almost 60. He was about 58 and he had no more, he didn' ; t have the capital to go back into the market business. Uh, so we, he had a hard time trying to figure out what he could do. He ended up being a gardener and he was cutting people' ; s grasses, lawns. And that' ; s what he did for, I don' ; t know, about five years. And I had such a gratitude and respect for my father who had been a successful businessman and now he' ; s driving this pickup truck and he' ; s going to people' ; s houses and cutting their grass and coming home full of sweat and exhausted. Never complained, you know, and he said, I have to have something to feed my family. And he tried to make a best of it. He said, the one good thing is he said, I see how American white families live domestically at home. And he said the, he met the housewives who were always home when he was cutting the grass. And he said, you know, they were sweet. They joked with him, they always brought him something cold to drink. And he said they were so warm and caring. He said, you know, he would' ; ve never known that white women were the way they were. You know, and Japanese husbands were not always the most thoughtful in terms of their relationship with their wives, you know, so to have these women who were you know very sincere and saying it' ; s hot, you know, sit down and take have, have a glass of water, don' ; t push yourself so much, um, was, was very endearing to him. He said, ah, you know, he really never would have known what it was like, the home life of an American fam- of white American family. So, you know, he tried to be philosophical and when you consider how much he lost in terms of money, business and sick, sick daughters that he couldn' ; t do anything to care for. Um, he never, he never lost faith in the meantime because the Maryknoll priests followed us to camp. They couldn' ; t live in the camps with us because they weren' ; t Japanese. They lived in neighbors, neighborhood communities, but they were there to provide the, you know the mass and the sacraments. And my father was so impressed with the faithful, the faith of the, of the priests. So when they came back, we picked up with them Maryknoll mission church. The school was pretty much not open yet and anyway, we were out of high scho- we were out of elementary school so it wouldn' ; t affect us. But anyway, he, uh, he and mother- my mother both became Catholic and um, appreciated the Catholic priests because they were so supportive and tried the best to make our lives uh, somewhat more palatable. SK:00:23:43Is that why you joined the Catholic Church? FC:00:23:46I always wanted to but it was my father that was, you know, adamant that they had this loyalty to the, you know, this little Protestant Christian Church they, that they help that helped them get settled at- originally in Los Angeles, but he said that, that since all of us got so much help from the, the Catholic uh priests and nuns that, uh, he could make the change. And by that time I, he was ready, you know, in his, in his seventies and close to eighties, you would thought thought he was a cradle Catholic. And my mother too, you know, they went to mass every Sunday with us. And you know, they just fitted in so well ' ; cause it was of course this little Jap-, Japanese community. So that' ; s where I was until, um, I moved to Chicago after, you know, of course I had been married, I had these children and the fam- my daughter and her husband and the kids moving to Chicago and me not having my husband, my husband was also a social worker and uh, but he, he was a smoker when he was younger, so he developed lung cancer. And so he did, he didn' ; t live very long. He died just, just about the time he retired, he was 65 when he passed away. And, uh, of course in my, by then, my parents were gone too. So, um, once my daughter had the grandchildren here in Chicago that, there was no, no hesitation on my part. I' ; ve thought ' ; uh well the kids are there, I' ; m gonna go' ; . SK:00:25:38Right. FC:00:25:39So I moved and I lived here in Chicago, 17, almost...16, 17 years. And you know, worked at JASC, you know, and had a few private clients, have connection with my grandkids and made a lot of friends and life was, was really quite, quite well settled until my grandson my son-in-law decided that his future in medicine was more, was better in Seattle because Chicago' ; s, I mean Illinois was in such financial difficulties-it still is. So as an ER doctor, they relied on Medicaid patients, coverage for their patients and their salaries were related to how much Medicaid money came into their, um, see the, the hospitals contracted with men, uh, pro. Uh, what am I trying to say? Uh, emergency doctors were not hired by the hospital. They hired the group, the practice group. Uh, they had a contract with the practice group and the practice group had to make enough money to pay the salaries. So you had to have the Medicaid patients billing to s-to support the program. And because fiscally Illinois was in such bad shape, these doctors worked at like a third of what they would have earned otherwise. My son-in-law said it was not acceptable. So he looked for someplace else. That' ; s how we ended up in Washington [laughs]. SK:00:27:28Is your son-in-law of Japanese American descent? FC:00:27:31No, he' ; s Jewish American [laughs]. So my grandkids are half Jews. Religiously, they' ; re Jews, culturally, they' ; re Japanese American. So we' ; re kind of a hybrid family. SK:00:27:47Do you ever talk about the experience with them? Do you ever talk about the experience of being in the camps with them? FC:00:27:54Oh yeah, I do. Yeah. And they' ; re always curious. My, my son is with me today and he' ; s just taking in the, all of the photographs. SK:00:28:05Wow. Did you talk to your kids about it? FC:00:28:08Yeah, uh huh. But general it' ; s not the same. All of these, especially Dorothea Lange' ; s photograph set are so graphic. You know, she captured the feeling of the people and, and we, the kind of pictures I have couldn' ; t begin to show what this exhibit is able to, to show. You know, and I think a lot of, I understand there aren' ; t too many Japanese American young people come to see this exhibit. SK:00:28:41Actually no, a lot of them, um, they kinda hear about it and then they pry a little bit. They talk to their parents. Maybe grandparents, but they can' ; t get a lot of information. Um, so a lot of them, they' ; ve never even heard of this moment in history. They have no idea that this happened. FC:00:29:01Yeah, that' ; s right. Yeah. And they don' ; t know the suffering, you can' ; t begin to, unless somebody tells you, how, you know how hard it was. SK:00:29:13But from what I' ; ve been hearing is that a lot of the Issei and Nisei don' ; t like to talk about it. FC:00:29:19That' ; s right. It' ; s like the Holocaust survivors, they don' ; t tell their family. SK:00:29:23This is true. This is true. FC:00:29:24You know, it' ; s, how do you tell, and put in words what it does to you as a person? SK:00:29:36Mhm. FC:00:29:36You know, we came out of our camps so ashamed, feeling like we did something that caused you know, them to treat us so poorly, but how do you, how do you put that into words? SK:00:29:51Yeah. FC:00:29:52Especially when the government says, ' ; We did it for your own protection' ; and you knew that, you knew that that wasn' ; t true. You know, it wasn' ; t for our protection. SK:00:30:05Right. FC:00:30:06We could have probably survived in all of the communities we lived in. Um, and if there was a little more education of the general population that we were not Japanese nationals, we were American Japanese, you know, the people could begin to understand. But the wartime hysteria of every- they just figured we were all somehow saboteurs. SK:00:30:37Mhm. You know, I hear that a lot, war time hysteria. Can you describe that? Like what was that like? FC:00:30:41Well, I lived in Los Angeles city and I lived in a neighborhood that was largely black. And of course the black folk were very supportive of us and we, I didn' ; t, they didn' ; t call us names. I think if I went to the local public school, some of the students were called, uh, called the Japanese students Japs and kind of make fun of them. But they were doing it in com- because they were- felt being attacked themselves. You know, you, you, it' ; s a pecking order. If you could find somebody who' ; s more vulnerable than you, you let them know that you know, you, you can, you can pick on him. And, uh, of course, most of those blacks in our neighborhood had seen much, much more prejudice than I ever felt. But anyway, um, you know, there were ways we could have done it without having to put us in camp. And you know, I, it' ; s, well the Japanese people are very private and there' ; ve been and stoic told to put up with, um, you know, poor treatment and lack of understanding. And so they don' ; t know how to express their anger and their, uh, and in fact, some of the younger Nisei men that objected to the camps, they had a lot of pressure from their parents to keep their mouth shut. You know, don' ; t, don' ; t, don' ; t stand up for your rights. You' ; re causing people to look at you, and, you know, just, just suck it up. Be, don' ; t, don' ; t be so, um, uh, what did I- talk, don' ; t talk so much about... SK:00:32:41Right, right. FC:00:32:42Just sort of, um, deal with it privately and then, so how do you tell that to the younger generation? SK:00:32:49Right. FC:00:32:50Except for you' ; ll say, to your kids, um if they say, ' ; Well, why are they doing this to us?' ; They say, ' ; Just be quiet and hold it all inside and try not to make trouble.' ; SK:00:33:04Now, was the community like that before this happened? FC:00:33:08Yeah, I think so because a lot of, um, especially in the rural areas where the Japanese farmers became an economic, uh, competition. They were afraid that they were gonna, they were being outsmarted by these you know, immigrants. Um, they- there was a lot of bad feeling. The, I think in the urban areas because there was so much diversity anyway that, um, you know, we didn' ; t, we, they, they didn' ; t know who we were, but we didn' ; t face quite so much direct hostility and prejudice. But along the central California valleys and up in Oregon and the farming, the areas where the Japanese farmers really constituted economic competition and threat, the, and the, liter- the newspaper, media was largely, they talked about the yellow peril. You know they, so that there was a lot of, uh, you know, publicity about this encroaching group of people who were going to somehow rob the Americans, white Americans of their prosperity [laughs]. SK:00:34:27Wow, wow. FC:00:34:29You know, so there was that very overt racism, um, uh, economically, you know, in a lot of the communities, particularly the rural communities. SK:00:34:42So other than economic competition, what else do you think fueled this hysteria? FC:00:34:50Well, the fact that we' ; re- as a group, we were more, we' ; re not Christian, so there is not a religious connection. You know, so you' ; d be, that' ; s another thing to s- look at us as different and not one of us is- makes you then... SK:00:35:11Other. FC:00:35:12Other. SK:00:35:13Yeah. FC:00:35:14And that ' ; other' ; is one that is not positive. It' ; s a negative ' ; other' ; . You' ; re different, you' ; re bad. Of course we' ; re getting some of that today. SK:00:35:24Yeah. FC:00:35:25It' ; s scary. SK:00:35:26Yeah. There is a lot of similarities, you know, between now and then, um... FC:00:35:35And the subtle white man' ; s feeling that they' ; re superior. SK:00:35:40Yeah. Yeah. FC:00:35:42It' ; s always been there. SK:00:35:44Yeah. Um, to kind of talk about though, talk about that though, I' ; ve always felt like that was a facade. You know what I mean? I don' ; t know if you' ; ve experienced that, but in my experience, this whole idea of, you know, white supremacy, you are white and superior has always seemed to mask this fear that whites are potentially potentially inferior in certain aspects. Have you noticed that yourself? FC:00:36:15Oh, it' ; s, yeah they cling to the feeling that in numbers they' ; re, they' ; re around and they could be more powerful, but they don' ; t have, I think there is a suspicion of a cultural identity that these ethnic groups have. Like the Muslims, and the Buddhists and the Hindus, that it brings them together. And then it makes a white man that is not as connected to his cultural roots, um, feel really threatened. You know, and there' ; s so many varieties of being white, you know, and especially in our country because you have the south and you have the north and we don' ; t seem quite know how to bridge that and make it be all you know, one same acceptance. SK:00:37:16I know what you mean. FC:00:37:17I think a lot of the racism is basically feeling that someone' ; s gonna find out that you' ; re inferior. And you overcome it by becoming super, you know, uh stro- more, uh, demanding and of course, and then you set up walls and so you don' ; t really get to know each other. It' ; s really, it' ; s really scary. SK:00:37:45It is truly. Um, one thing I wanted to ask you about, I hear a lot of people talk about their dads during this case, during this situation, I mean. What was this like for your mom? What did she go through? FC:00:38:03My mother, I don' ; t know how she does it. She just keeps everything, you know, she doesn' ; t cry. She just keeps doing the best she can. Um, I think that um, she had, she had a really rough life at the beginning coming in, being married to this. My dad is 11 years older than my mother and he had been in the states and he was, he was kind of cocky and I don' ; t, my father was never abusive towards my mother, but he liked to drink in the evening and in business trying to get farmers to come. He' ; s, he got into the habit of wining and dining them. And my mother was left alone. So my mother, my older sister thought my mother was very depressed and somewhat suicidal. I never saw it ' ; cause I' ; m six years younger. I never saw that. But my older sister felt very protective of my mother felt that dad was, you know, cruel in his way. He was cruel to my mother because he just overlooked what she was going through. It was years later, I discover that when she grew up in southern Japan in the Fukuoka area, um, she excelled in school. She finished, uh, primary school and was given a scholarship to go on to what would have been like a teacher training college. It' ; s almost like the junior college and uh, so she was being trained to become a bo- bookkeeper. And in fact, when she got married to my father, she was already- had left the southern island of Japan and was in the Osaka area because an uncle was managing some kind of a business and she was being trained to be a bookkeeper for them. So she had a career path. So the family thought when offer of marriage comes, I don' ; t know why, but she decided she wanted to leave and go to the America and the parents objected. They told her they did not want her to leave because they said she had a future. And it would have been a future where her income would have helped the whole family. Um, and then those days in Japan in order you, even if you are a majority age, the government wanted parental approval because they didn' ; t want people running off to the America on kakamania kind of things. So they insisted that the parents approved of the wives getting married and leaving. Well, her parents wouldn' ; t give that permission. So my mother takes the paper or goes down to the rural part of Japan that my father was from. He was an orphan by that time. And so she begs his older brother to sign the paper for her, which he is willing to do. So she comes back home. I don' ; t know how she stepped back in the house ' ; cause she comes back with this paper signed by this brother-in-law that she' ; d never met before. He' ; s a stranger, but he signed the paper that said they approve of her going to the US. So on the strength of that, she comes to the US and then she meets this kind of cocky man that' ; s, you know, getting uh, getting ahead and becoming very Americanized and he leaves their home a lot and she doesn' ; t drive. She doesn' ; t, if she goes any place she has to take the public transportation. And so she learned early that this was her choice and if she cried over it, nobody was gonna give her much sympathy. So, um, she survived. And I think the thing that almost broke her was when my older sister had the tuberculosis and had to be left behind ' ; cause she didn' ; t see her for the entire duration. SK:00:42:44You weren' ; t able to speak to her or write to her or anything either? FC:00:42:47Oh they wrote to each other, but you know, she writes in simple Japanese, my sister writes in simple language [laughs], you know, and then we didn' ; t have, we don' ; t know, we didn' ; t have phone, phone connection. So it was very, very difficult, and uh, shows you how strong she was ' ; cause she never broke down. And she always told us, you know, to look forward, get educated, work hard, and life will get better for you. And if she harbored any really heartbreaking circumstances, she wouldn' ; t let us see it. So the two of them, my mother was really very, very strong. My father was pretty open minded and he allowed us to be much more Americanized and I am appreciating that. But as I get older, I really appreciate my mother' ; s internal strength, you know? I mean she went through stuff that would have broken another person a lot long, you know, years ago. But she outlived her husband and she lived to be 94 before she passed away. And uh, so she got to see my, my son and my daughter. So she got to see that. Well, he did, he did too. They, both, both of them got to see their grandkids. So, uh, she and she became very active at the church and they would have bazaars and she would participate and she made a lot of friends that way. So, um, I think she was able to spend the end of her life feeling good. And my father really, um, appreciated her at the end, you know, and if we were, if we were critical of her, he would always scold us. Said, you know, ' ; you don' ; t do that to your mother, she' ; s put up with a lot' ; . So, uh, you know, I think there were, uh, he finally was able to give her some, really show her the love that she should have had. So I, you know, it was difficult for these Issei people to show their feelings, but I' ; m grateful that they stuck together and he did, he did, he improved rather than, you know, continued in his wild and demanding ways [laughs]. SK:00:45:37All right. My next question is, what, what would you say is your fondest and least favorite memories of the camp? FC:00:45:49Of camp? SK:00:45:49Yeah. FC:00:45:50The friendships. You know, the pure friendships. All of us had sadness and unhappy things that happened as a result of the war. But, um, I still have, I come in from, uh, uh, when I lived in Chicago every once a year, my high school friends, about eight of us would get together and have lunch together and I would make the trip to join them. And these are like the camp classmates. You know, so we don' ; t have much in common other than the fact that we were in high school. SK:00:46:36But I mean, that' ; s, that' ; s important. That' ; s a pretty powerful connection. FC:00:46:37And so, you know, and now I, this, this past year in April, we, we got together but the group has gotten smaller. People that have, you know- SK:00:46:48Passed FC:00:46:48Developed, you know, uh, physical conditions-- they can' ; t get out. They can no longer drive and of course a lot of them had passed away, but we had six of us got to- they' ; re just women, the men don' ; t seem to join us. SK:00:47:05I wonder why. FC:00:47:08So I appreciate the fact that there is this bond of us having survived together and we don' ; t talk about what went on, but we just know we' ; re soulmates. SK:00:47:23Right, right, right. FC:00:47:25And so, um, I appreciate that we have, that I go back to Los Angeles and uh, you know, was able to connect with these folks. And then here are the resettlement committee group have that kind of bonding coming out of the camps, yeah. SK:00:47:45What about your least favorite memory? FC:00:47:48Huh? SK:00:47:48Your least favorite memory? FC:00:47:53Least favorite memory? Well, some of the, you saw people' ; s mistakes and bad things, you would have never seen it if it weren' ; t for, you know, I mean, if we were living in the city people' ; s lives, you don' ; t get to see, right. SK:00:48:18Every little detail, yeah. FC:00:48:18That detail, one of my closest friends in camp, her mother had an affair and had a baby and it was with a younger man that she supposedly had set aside for her older daughter to marry. But she ends up getting pregnant with him and she abandons the baby and my girlfriend never once broke, broke down and talked to me about it. It affected her so much. She became epileptic and she went back to Los Angeles and tried to build her life up, but she was so distraught. She ended up dying. You know, the epilepsy got so bad she would just go into coma and she finally didn' ; t survive. So you know, you saw things like that that you wouldn' ; t see in a, in a more, you know, more disperse kind of an environment. SK:00:49:30Now, are stories like that the reason why you choose to share what happened instead of keeping it in? FC:00:49:37Well, people, you know, yeah they, they make it so light and I think that we were really so seriously affected and we don' ; t know how to explain it or where we' ; re not accustomed to talking about it. And you carry this stone in your heart, you know, and um, since I' ; m a therapist, you know, I want people to talk about things that are painful and put it together as some po-, you know, that it happened. It wasn' ; t something that you chose to have, but that it made you be- you know, I think you could become a more full person if you could address it, but see culturally, we don' ; t have that avenue. You know, like the Jewish community are more able to share their deep feelings and be bonded as a result of feelings. And even the African families, because they are, gone through so much together, they can talk and they can sing and they can talk about how bad it was. Um, the Japanese don' ; t seem to have that built in. Some people are very expressive, but as a rule, we are just very stoic, suck it up and think, you know, just to look ahead and don' ; t, don' ; t, um, reveal how embarrassing or how painful, but it made you be ashamed for no reason. You know, if, if you did something bad, your shame is related to guilt, but to be shamed without any reason to feel guilty, it just destroys you. And if you talk about it too much without putting it together... SK:00:51:50It overwhelms you. Yeah, I get that now. FC:00:51:52Yeah. So I think, uh, that we, the third, fourth and fifth generation still carry the effects of it and I don' ; t think they even know it. SK:00:52:05Good point. Good point. FC:00:52:08But, I, you get me going, I don' ; t know how to shut up- SK:00:52:12No, no, no, no, no- FC:00:52:12So you' ; ll have to excuse me. SK:00:52:14No, you' ; re fine. Um, you actually, a lot of the stuff that you were saying actually relates to the way a lot of people feel now with everything that' ; s going now. Um, it' ; s just, it' ; s refreshing to hear how you explained it. FC:00:52:32Oh yeah? Oh. SK:00:52:33Yeah. Um, ' ; cause like I said a lot of people don' ; t share. So to hear how... FC:00:52:38Well you see them walking through and you wish you could hear what' ; s really going on inside. SK:00:52:42Yeah, yeah, you know, a lot of times I want to ask because I like to ask, I like to know like how does this make you feel? How can we connect, you know, through feelings, through thoughts, through ideas. And a lot of times I' ; m actually afraid to approach people because I know that this is something that' ; s not, you know, this isn' ; t a hot topic. This is something that a lot of people choose to not to speak about. So I just, I really appreciate, you know, how you framed everything for me. Um, I think the last thing I want to ask you, ' ; cause I don' ; t want to keep you, you too long. Um, you' ; ve given me a lot. Um, what was life, but, what was life like when you first got back? FC:00:53:26Strange. SK:00:53:26When you all first moved in, you know, you' ; re getting re-acclimated to your home and everything. What was that like? How did that feel? FC:00:53:34Well, you know, when I, when we left Los Angeles, Los Angeles was a tiny little, it was a tiny little village. And during the war, because of war production and all that Los Angeles just became a metropolis. Okay. So, um, I walked up and I felt like such a country bumpkin because I didn' ; t know how to cross streets, you know, I didn' ; t know how to follow traffic lights, I, to come out of a place where there were no traffic signals, hardly even cars. And uh, things whizzing by, you know? And so I really, that was strange ' ; cause I, I knew this was where I came from, but I didn' ; t recognize the city in terms of how it had changed. And it took a while for me and um when I left, I was a child in a very protected environment. And I come back and my family had gone to gone so many changes and my dad is struggling to try to find a way to support his family. And my mother is still worried because another, child is sick in the hospital, you know, and I' ; m running around trying to find my way to UCLA [laughs]. And so we lost its cohesiveness, you know. My parents couldn' ; t protect me anymore and I didn' ; t have... my older sister never went through that experience, she was in the sanatorium. So she and I clashed. We didn' ; t, we didn' ; t feel connected. So, uh, that was the effect that the family wasn' ; t united in the way it was when we left for camp. You know, and I think the- all of us went through experiences ' ; cause when were in the camps, you didn' ; t eat like a family. The kids went to eat by themselves. Parents ate someplace else. So that, and then a lot of times the fathers were in federal camps. They weren' ; t even in camp with us. So the family life was very disjointed. And because my father didn' ; t go to a federal camp, and the reason he didn' ; t get pulled by the FBI was because all of his support was with this Catholic mission school. And the agents who interrogated him were all Catholics from, you know, Catholic universities on the east coast, the FBI agents. So they couldn' ; t find anything to say he was unpatriotic. So we stayed as a family other than the fact that my sister was sick. We, and so, when we went to camp, my father said he wasn' ; t going to to let us go eat with our buddies. So my mother would go to the mess hall and asked them to give us a tray of food and she' ; d bring it to the barrack where we lived. And we ate as a family in the barrack. And I thought that was one of the smartest things my father insisted upon because he maintained the family core. But for a lot of our friends, they just had no more, you know, parents no longer had control. So it affected, you know, affected the family. They, as they got older, a lot of them, a lot of the family members, you know, they came here without their parents and it, family got hit, family unity was, was really weakened. And the Isseis when they came to Chicago, had no power. You know, they were not able to get out and work or not enough to support the family. And the younger kids were now making more money, not that they' ; re making a lot, but they were making more money than the fathers were making. So that the Issei generation just sort of lost their position and then a lot of their kids went to different communities to work and the guys were in the service that came back and you know, so the families' ; composition changed a lot. So, uh, you know, the, so that, but it' ; s, you know, when you consider that, how so in spite of it, most of the younger people still held that held on to getting educated and working hard and supporting not only themselves but the family members so that, um, you know, we didn' ; t give up all the things that our parents taught us. You know, I may have strayed a little bit, but it was still built into us, you know. I think as a group we are pretty strong. SK:00:59:02Right, right. FC:00:59:02Well, I better let you go. SK:00:59:05Okay. Um, before we leave, is there anything that you would share with the younger generation? I believe it' ; s Sansei and Yonsei? FC:00:59:12Sansei and Yonsei. It' ; s probably gonna be Gosei, fifth generation pretty soon. I would suggest that they read up on the history of what went on because they can' ; t rely on their family to give them the information you know, that they need. And so the more, the younger group can understand and respect what we went through, you know, it would help them and if it helps them, helps the community. SK:00:59:50You' ; re right, you' ; re right. Well, thank you. That was the perfect, perfect message to end it. Thank you so much for your time. FC:00:59:58Yeah. Well, you' ; re very easy to talk to [laughs]. SK:01:00:01[Laughs] I appreciate it, thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ChikahisaFrances20170916.xml ChikahisaFrances20170916.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Chikahisa, Frances (9/16/2017)
Description
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Frances Chikahisa was born and raised in Los Angeles before being incarcerated at Santa Anita and then Rohwer. In adulthood she pursued a career as a social work psycho-therapist, eventually moving to Chicago and later Seattle to be closer to her daughter's family. In this interview, she discusses her family's time before, during, and after incarceration. She also talks about her experiences of wartime hysteria and racism.
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2017-09-16
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Chikaraishi, Ben
Interview Keyword
War Relocation Authority
Department of Justice
FBI Files
Housing Discrimination
Midwest Buddhist Temple
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
Japanese American Citizens League
Tri-C
Christ Church of Chicago
Optometry
Clark and Division
Japantown
Sports
Social Groups
Basketball
Baseball
Social Activities
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/31/2017 Chikaraishi, Ben (10/31/2017) 1:35:58 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. War Relocation Authority Department of Justice FBI Files Housing Discrimination Midwest Buddhist Temple Chicago Nisei Athletic Association Japanese American Citizens League Tri-C Christ Church of Chicago Optometry Clark and Division Japantown Sports Social Groups Basketball Baseball Social Activities Chikaraishi, Ben Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/306098086 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/306098086?h=097d80fafe" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Community leader Ben Chikaraishi describes his family [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada:00:00:00So to start, can you just state your full name? Ben Chikaraishi:00:00:03My name is Ben [Tsutomu?] Chikaraishi. AT:00:00:07Okay and um, where and when were you born? BC:00:00:10I was born in September, the 10th, 1921. In Colusa, California a little, little city of about 2000 people, about 40 miles northwest of Marysville. AT:00:00:30And um, how long were you, were you and your family there in Colusa? BC:00:00:36Well, my father had two people when I was there in the 1920s and they started the uh, uh, cleaner business just with two people and uh, they started this business and then two years they found out that two people cannot make up a living on cleaning, so they drew straws and two of, two of the three partners went farming and my father was one of them. And then from there we' ; ve moved, to a lot Colusa, wait from Colusa we went to Live Oak, and then to Marysville, California. And then from Marysville we came to Chicago in 1930. AT:00:01:36Which, uh, which town were your first memories in? BC:00:01:42Well, when I, when I was there, well, I was very young. So the as far as my memories is something going to school in Saijin and um, my, my, my, my brother, my sister and myself, we used to walk to the school and these well uh the [doc asolba] dusty road and we had to look for snakes going by on the roads and it goes to a one room, one room, country school there we had one teacher teaching all ages of people that I remember very clearly. AT:00:02:24And which, which town was that in? BC:00:02:26That was in a Live Oak, California? Yes. And then Marysville look a little cit, a bigger city. I stayed there for a while, but then they moved me to Chicago. I was nine years old and I left ah Marysville and came to Chicago. Unknown:00:02:53Not Chicago? BC:00:02:53Not Chicago, Stockton, Stockton, California. AT:00:02:56Okay. BC:00:02:56Oh boy. I' ; m skipping a few years! AT:00:03:01And um, so in those early years in Live Oak Oh, um, where was there a Japanese American community there? BC:00:03:13No, in those days there were, there was no, what they call, a king' ; s welcome committee. They were just practically farms and uh, my father, like many other people never owned the farm. That leaves the farm and, and these peaches. And then my father was growing up rice for a few years, so there was, there were no, there was no community. Probably the nearest neighbor was maybe about, 5, 10 miles away. AT:00:03:48And um, as far as your, your family, where were you all ah religious or did you do any activities outside of school? BC:00:03:57Well, at that, at that age I mean, no, the oldest, my brother helped a little bit on the farm but I was too young and my sister was too young. So that. So there wasn' ; t any, anything that we did or communicate with doing the community as far as that' ; s concerned. No, not in those years yet, yes. AT:00:04:21And um, can you tell me the names and the ages of your siblings where you are in the birth order? BC:00:04:31At that time or now? AT:00:04:33Or just the age difference between you all? BC:00:04:34Oh my, my, my. Well why go back to all the history as far as my father and mother concerned. There were originally six in our family and the first one passed away in Stockton when he was only 21 years old from tuberculosis. And then a second one, passed away in Japan and he was a 60, 70, 68, 78, 68 years old. And then my other brother was in Lodi, California and he passed away when he was 66 and my sister just passed away last year and she was 98 years old. And my, myself, I' ; m 96 now, I' ; m still living. And my sister, younger sister passed away when she was 71 in Gardena, California. AT:00:05:46So you are the second to youngest? BC:00:05:47I was I was uh the second youngest of the family, of the six, yes. AT:00:05:55And um, so you said you were nine years old when you moved to Stockton? BC:00:06:02Yes. AT:00:06:02And what was the reason for that move? BC:00:06:05Well, that was during the Depression years and uh, even the farmers had very difficult time making a living. Consequently, we had my father, I mean my mother, had a brother that was in Stockton already and he was a barber and he was able to rent, ah, lease a home, I mean an apartment and asked my father if he' ; d liked to come to Chicago because it probably would be easier for him and the children as they were all growing up now. And that' ; s why we came to Chicago, AT:00:06:47To Stockton? BC:00:06:49Stockton, Chicago. Boy, I tell ya, I' ; m jumping a few years. AT:00:06:53And um, so then how many years were you in Stockton? About? BC:00:07:02Well, AT:00:07:02How much time did you spend there? BC:00:07:05I was nine years old and when I came and uh, and uh, we moved from Stockton to Rohwer I was 22 years old. AT:00:07:23And um, can you tell me a little bit about what your experiences were like in Stockton? BC:00:07:31Stockton was ah, agricultural town and ah my father had a hotel. So what does a lot of people used to work in the farms and these were potato farms. They have celery farms. They had grape orchards and, and they would, they would work during the, during the week and they come Friday' ; s, to the city to, to enjoy themselves. And um, those are the times that we were busy at hotel and as, as the hotel is concerned, um just like most of the businesses were uh run by families, like the Japanese family that worked in the cleaners you know, father, I mean the mother, the children, and the same things as the hotel. We all hotel. We helped at the hotel. Yeah. During, during the weekends. AT:00:08:29What were some of your duties? BC:00:08:32Pardon? AT:00:08:32What were some of your duties? BC:00:08:33My duties? My duties, my main duty was clean the stairs as they come up. So I had the clean the hou, the clean the stairs and, and I used to do some vacuuming in the, in the rooms and that way. And, and on Sundays I uh, had a user choice of working in the hotel or going to church. So naturally I chose to go to church and then since then I' ; ve been going to church from. AT:00:09:10And what kind of church was that? BC:00:09:11It was a Buddhist church. Yes. In that town it Stockton was a small town, a little under 40,000 people. And consequently it was sort of they had one Christian church and one Buddhist church. And the Japanese, as far as the Japanese community would go, if you called that Japanese community, it wasn' ; t a big community, but all of us were living more or less in an area of about four blocks. So we knew each other and it was a sort of a underprivileged area where we had, we had ah Japanese, Chinese and other ethnic groups like we' ; re good. We had the Blacks, we had Mexicans and, and so it was that type of a community. It was sort of...community like that. AT:00:10:08And were those demographics also reflected in the schools? BC:00:10:15Well, in Stockton we had one high school, and that was ah, one public high school and, and later on they bought, they built a, they built a Catholic high school. But um, but uh, as far as the grammar schools, yes, we had a school that was right in the fact that four block area. We all went to that one school that was up until about ah, I' ; d say about the fourth or fifth grade. Then we transferred to another school with a little further away and it was more of a mixed group then that was. And then we went to high school after that. AT:00:10:57And after high school, what did you do? BC:00:11:00After high school? Well, I had a choice of what kind of profession I would like to have, to do. And to do, um, we had uh, a very nice lady that used to be our Japanese School advisor and she had, wanted me to, go to medical school because uh, my record were quite good at, but then I knew that I was allergic to blood so I knew that that was my field and so you why she wanted me to me to go to dentistry and so I said no, it' ; s the same problem and said, well, you know, the only other profession that I could go that I have to worry about contact with blood was optometry. So went to the, um, she, she was able to obtain a scholarship for me. So I went to the College of [Pacific?] which is uh, I didn' ; t know at that time, but I found out later on it was probably one of the oldest schools in California. And so I stayed there two years. Then I transferred to the University of California School of Optometry in Berkeley and, and that was 1941. So. AT:00:12:29And was that something that was expected of you and your siblings to go to school and pursue a professional BC:00:12:37Well, not really because at that time, uh, most of the young people, unfortunately they--especially the boys and the girls, but boys do. They had to work on farms. There were so many people that have small farms. These are what they call a truck car farm. They have some people, two acres of farm and they make all kinds of vegetables and so they had to work in the farms and so they didn' ; t get the opportunity to go to school, but I was able to go to school because I had brothers and sisters, that were helping there and and so I, I went there two years and I transferred to Berkeley, California. AT:00:13:24And so you were at UC Berkeley in 1941. Can you, can you tell me about your, your recollections of the day Pearl Harbor was attacked the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked. What, what were your recollections of that day? When you were at University of California? BC:00:13:51When I went to school? AT:00:13:53Because you were in school when Pearl Harbor was attacked. BC:00:13:57Yes. You mean when the war started? AT:00:13:59Mhm BC:00:13:59Oh yes. That I definitely. It was so clear. I had at that day--it was a Sunday and I had come home from church it was 1 o' ; clock and I was, and at that time there were no televisions or anything, so I turned the radio on and start the clothes, changed my clothes to everyday clothes and then all I heard was that, that Pearl Harbor being bombed, bombed and you can hear the sirens. You can hear the bombs. You can hear all the noise of warfare and it kept selling that a Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor is being bombed and I just couldn' ; t believe it I just, I thought was another radio program because at that time there was a very well known producer named March Obler and he used to, he used to produce a radio programs that were really out of the ordinary and so I thought it was one of those. But they kept saying, this is is a dial, I mean, there are live report from and they were saying that the, the ship, Missouri, was being bombed and then all of a sudden I realized it was, it was true, the war was going and so I just stood there for a few minutes and over what we' ; re going to do, what' ; s going to happen? But yeah. So I. AT:00:15:40At that point, did you have--were you with friends or anyone that you knew? Um, like at that time that you went to the new school? BC:00:15:53Well, yes, we, we, uh, when I was going to school we lived at a Japanese boarding house, so there were about eight of us in the house and some of them because of the start of the war, they decided to go home right away and my sister, meanwhile, called me and told me, " ; Please try to stay in school as long as I could." ; Because I was only ah one going to be ah, it was about three months away from my graduation, for my degree, and so I was able to stay there until exactly three weeks before I graduated. Then they order from 9066 came and so my sister called me, " ; Please come right away because we' ; re going to have to go to one of the assembly centers and so I went home right away. So I only had one month before graduation. And I stayed there, yeah. AT:00:17:04Do you remember, like some of your thoughts and feelings at the time? BC:00:17:14It was just a, just a matter of wondering what' ; s going to happen. Didn' ; t know about what, what, what happened to us because as the enemy I had no idea that we would be asked to leave, didn' ; t go to any kind of concentration camps or anything like that. But we wondered about the safety of being as far as the town is concerned, for our safety. But there wasn' ; t too much, I just think that that couldn' ; t happen. AT:00:17:54Did any besides um, like in the immediate days and weeks following Pearl Harbor, did anything change in your daily life? BC:00:18:06Well, yes. We got there the day after Pearl Harbor, two FBI agents, came to our house and told my father that please pack a small suitcase or whatever you want because you are going to be incarcerated. And that was 9 o' ; clock in the morning, about 7 o' ; clock in the morning. And then my sister told them, gee, let him have a coffee and they waited by the door and then after that they took, they didn' ; t say a word as far as taking--why he was being taken prisoner, as far as they were concerned. And they put them into the jail together with several people in the city. And for awhile I couldn' ; t understand most of the, the, uh, the Japanese school teachers or the administrators, a couple of businesses, ministers, uh, people that were active in community. We' ; re all approached and taken the same day. And from I can understand that they had a list of about 3200 people that were to be immediately, after the war, taken into it. So, so from, from there, they stayed in the county jail for several, two days. And then they went to San Francisco and then they were sent to a, uh, Missoula, Montana, then then they were moved to Santa Fe, Santa Fe, New Mexico, and then they finally to Louisburg where they, where he spent about three and a half years in the concentration camp. And these were the regular concentration camps. They were, uh, not the WRA, concentration camp, but they were, they were set up by the Justice Department, so they were there. So they were into these concentration camps with German prisoners and Italian prisoners. AT:00:20:27But as far as where he was actually going, you learned all of that after the fact, right? At the time, you all didn' ; t. They didn' ; t say where your father was going? BC:00:20:40We have no idea. They won' ; t say a word. And it was one yea, one month before we knew where he was and whatever letters we sent they were all well and whatever the four letters that they sent, they were, they were, they crossed out, all of those important locations and dates and everything. So we have no idea. And finally we found out where they were. AT:00:21:16Um, so can you tell me a little bit more about when, um, the evacuation orders went out for, for you and your family? Where, um, what were the instructions and where, what was the process like? BC:00:21:35Well, I guess we got the same instructions by that Order of 9066 that we had one week to, to take care of your, uh, business and everything, try to sell as much as you can, although the government would have facilities where it was full for a keeping your belongings, but nobody believed what the government would do because we have no idea. And so most people, uh, during that one week they had to sell whatever they could and it would, and, and, and in most cases, uh, uh, people, uh, waited until the last day or so, and they bought things like sewing machines, automobiles, and things that you cannot carry, we had orders of what you could bring to the, what they call the assembly centers at that time. And, and uh, as far as we were concerned, we had a hotel and it was a lease hotel. So we didn' ; t own the building. And we are property was the furnishings, all the finishings in the hotel and we were trying to sell it, but then we found a friend that said, they came over and said, I' ; ll think over the lease for you. And he said you pay us so much per month, so then we were happy that, that he would be taken care of and resolved. We thought with it, he was a friend of ours, so to speak that with quotations, we found out. We got, we were in Rohwer, he a sent us money for about six months and then all of a sudden it stopped and uh, and you find out that he would not bring, send any money at all. And um, and there was nothing we could do as well as the government is concerned because they, no facilities or organizations to help you. And so that was that for us. And when the war start, ended, my brother went to, back to the hotel to see what' ; s the situation was, it was everything was in ruins because they hadn' ; t replaced anything. And so, so, so we just lost everything he had. AT:00:24:15And so you, you went back to Stockton with your family and then from UC Berkeley? BC:00:24:23No, no, I didn' ; t go back to Stockon at all. In fact, my brother was the only one because he had a small orchard and somebody has taken care of the orchard. And so he went back to the orchard. My father and my two sisters, just stayed in ah Rohwer until 1945. And then they came to Chicago where I, I, I, I left camp. In fact, I went to Rohwer and it was ah 19 August of 1942 and, and then I stayed there and as far as myself with them, like most of the people in any of the concentration camps, they, they went to work and I was lucky enough that I was able to work, to work in the hospital. And at that time we had, Rohwer, we had a little over 8,000 inmates there. And, and there was just one optometrist and she' ; s the one, they had three, uh, three more months of graduation they allowed me to work with, with the optometrist. And so I was able to receive the salary, monthly salary of a $60 a month and wage, ah wages that people worked or were for the people that were the lowest bracket, which where the wood cutters, the kitchen help, the kitchen people and, and such. They only got $16, $16 a month. She got $16 and then those people in that, the chefs and the truck drivers and that people that worked in these stores and such, they were, they were getting 16, 16, $16 a month and no $12. And we were the professionals. We got the highest scale of $60 a month. So I, I worked there, we had the optometrist to take care of 16,000 people that many of them wanted a, a need lenses. So we' ; re very busy at that time. And after and, and I, I thought that perhaps I should finished my education and so I started to make negotiations for a release to go. So I had a, I wrote to the school, the school accepted me, but then I wouldn' ; t get my clearance from the WRA, the War Relocation Authority, they wouldn' ; t give you clearance and because I was wondering why because I would get it because all my other people that had asked for clearance to go to school, they got within three weeks to a month. Mine took about three months. And finally I found out that this was after I went to Chicago that one of my friends that said they were going to go into deep archives, that Washington, DC to get their records. So is that for $10 they can get you a record, a copy of your record. So I gave him $10 and then I found out why I was retained so long because my father was put in the concentration and my father was a very humble man. Never, never, never was associated with any organization. Japanese organization in the city, not a teacher or anything, was a hotel manager. And, and most of the years that he was there, he had to take care of mother, her husband, wife, because she had high blood pressure and she was bedridden for the last seven years. And I found out that the reason I was retained and all the people, most of us, some of us in the city where we' ; re over in Kendo, Kendo is fencing, Japanese fencing. And that' ; s more like in Japan, they call it a sport. Well, what happened is that, that, uh, the kendo organization came around to, uh, various, uh, houses that had ah kendo ah kendo teach uh students were. And they, they, uh, asked for donations for, to make a book. It wasn' ; t not really a big book, sort of booklet and ended booklets, the last page there was a picture of Toyama Mitsuru, he was uh, he was the head of what they call the Black Dragon Society in Japan. And he was a designated one of the six enemies of the United States. So every name, a person name in that book was all, all the fathers were put into concentration camps right away. AT:00:29:53And um, as far as you and your siblings, were you all at Rohwer together? BC:00:30:00Yes, we were all evacuated to, we went to, uh, in April, April 16th, we were, we were told to get your belongings, which was all you can carry in two hands on your suitcase. As far as myself is concerned, I wore two stockings, two pants, two shirts, two of everything and to carry two suitcases and we went two blocks where the trucks were waiting for us and loaded all of our belongings that we brought in we were put into a bus and brought into the county fairgrounds. And that county fairgrounds was um, was our home for, uh, from April to Ju to August. And we were put into a horse stall, and all these assembly centers were setup, well, the order came in April that the Japanese are going to be evacuated, and we were put into, the order came in and what was it? February 9066. And then we were sent to these camps and in, in April. So they only had two weeks, two months to clean the stalls and these were, we were all hall stalls, ah horse stalls, and what they did was just cans, cans of [inaudible] water paint, and they put straw on the floor and it hardly cleaned up. So the moment you went into one of these stalls it was just smell of horses that when you were [mumbles] and they had four beds, cots, cots, side by side, that was our home for, from May, April to August. AT:00:32:18What, what a lot of folks that we' ; ve been speaking to for this project were much younger when they were in camp BC:00:32:28What was that? AT:00:32:28A lot of folks that we' ; ve been speaking to were much younger. BC:00:32:32Oh yes, yes, probably so. AT:00:32:34And I' ; m curious because many of them weren' ; t fully aware of what was happening, but as a young adult, I surely, you know, you were more aware BC:00:32:48Yes. AT:00:32:48And I' ; m just wondering what, um, what some of your, what were some of the things going on through your head through this whole process and? BC:00:33:00You know, I was, what, 22 years old and, and uh, and sort of, an, and, an, adventurous. And so to me it was, I met new friends and uh, I really didn' ; t feel too bitter at that time. And uh, and so I went about it was whatever they asked us to do and you know I just just. But later on I began to understand what happened and, and how all the fact that gee, all of a sudden we were, we, we were abused as far as I' ; m concerned. We were second grade student, I mean ah people. And um, and that we were deprived of our, about what the Constitution says that the life, liberty and happiness without, without due process and then being you know we wondered why all of this had taken place. But most like Japanese, they, they, they, they thought that, well, you know, like you say everybody, every Japanese knew a word called Shikataganai, which means that it' ; s something that happens and that' ; s just, no matter what you do is not going to do. So we made the best of the best of everything. And um, and also the people that say what Gaman, which was perseverance. So we went through all those years and without protests and things like that, but, and then about 40 years ago, 40 years, nothing happened. But then, when you had these five Congress with men in Congress, they were able to convince a fair level of Congressmen of the problems that we had been through and that we had all our Redress and everything. And so, so all paid off as far as the Japanese are concerned. I think, you know. So as far as we' ; re concerned, my wife and my family and most of our Nisei' ; s, stilll feel that United States is the very best place and being we are Japanese, no, we hired Japanese descent but we' ; re Americans and we accept what happened and uh, made the best of it. Then. AT:00:35:46So I think now is it a good time to start talking about, um, what happened after you left camp? BC:00:35:55After I left camp? AT:00:35:58Mhm. BC:00:35:58Well I, I finally got my clearance to go to school and at that time, the only people that were able to obtain clearance where people that were accepted at universities or working in the fields for, for temporary jobs. And, so it was July the 3rd. I took my suitcase and walked through the main, main highway, which was about a half mile away. And I waited for the bus. The bus came. I went on the bus and then as the first time that are aware of the prejudice that the Blacks had, the in there where they lived in the South there because I, I paid by my fair and then I didn' ; t know what to do. I looked up and all the Black people were back in the back. All the white people in the front. And I said to myself, gee, what am I supposed to do? But then I thought that gee, we were, we were, we were underprivileged and we had discrimination just like the Blacks and all that stuff. So I said, I sit in the back. So I went to the back and I sat down in it and the drivers just, she just sits, he just stopped the bus and he says, Hey, you said you can' ; t stay back, sit in the front. So I didn' ; t know what to do. I mean, let me go to the window front. So fine. I sat right in the middle. That was the first time I had that experience like that. Then I find out from the first time that the Blacks people discrimination so, so great that they couldn' ; t even get in the bus or drink from water fountains or anything though. AT:00:37:56And where did that, where was that bus going? BC:00:37:58Oh, my bus? That bus went through to Rohwer, which was a city of about 6,000 near...about 20 miles from our Rohwer concentration camp. And um, I, I, I boarded the train there and I went to, St, St Louis where I had a friend and I stayed overnight in St Louis. Then I went to train that took me to Chicago and landed up in Dearborn Station, which is not there now, but it was one of the main stations in Chicago. And then when I got out I was really, all I could do was just stare and wait because here I was from a small city and there were all these high buildings in the hustle and the bustle and the street cars going back and forth. And, after awhile I, well we both thought well, it' ; s almost evening. So I, I, uh, my friend went who came with, came to meet me at the station, took me to the YMCA Hotel, which is on the 400 South and Wabash. I spent my first night in Chicago and, and the next morning, first thing in the morning I went to the War Relocation Authority office because I was told to do that. And then I registered there and told them I' ; m in Chicago. And then while I was there I asked them, where do you think I could find some accommodations? So, so the idea of the War Relocation Authority was to desegregate the Japanese or assimilate them as much as they can, so they told me to go this area, this area that way. And my friend who was aware of the situation, he says, he says, no, you don' ; t even think about going to a place because they' ; re too expensive and you can' ; t afford and probably won' ; t be even be accepted in that area. So. So he asked me, where do you think he want us to look for a house or not a house, but a room in a house. And at that time I guess the uh, the first settlement in Chicago was at around 42nd, I' ; m sorry, Ellis and [Oakland?] From 42nd street to about 46th or 7th street. And there they had all the hotels, hotels, they had apartments and barber shops and restaurants and everything. And he asked me if I go over there because you could be sure to find some place to stay. But so I asked him where he lives. He said he lives on the 1600 block. And so I said, well maybe I' ; ll go where you are, near where you are. So we went, and this is the area from 6000 South, one block South of University of Chicago. And there were, well it was just, it' ; s just an area where just homes, there are no homes, I mean no stores or no restaurants or anything but just living apartments. And so we went up to three streets, streets about Kimbark and Woodlawn and, well just...So, I went up and down the street and, and every apartment building that had a sign that said, said sleeping room...I knocked on the door and then they looked at you and he says, well, I' ; m sorry, but I just rented that. And then this kept going on for about four or five places. And then, and then the last place I went there, I ask, gee he told me that he told me that same thing. That it was resented, it was just rented. Well, I told them, I got enough ner, nerve by that time and said, " ; Why don' ; t you just take the sign off?" ; And he says, " ; Well, I was just going to, but I just didn' ; t." ; But those are the situations that, in fact some of them were not even that kind, they' ; d open the door, looked at your face, and slammed it...Finally I was able to find a sleeping room, which was a small room, and a little kitchenette in the corner, it was a little gas burner and the only reason I found that the room there, was because there was a Japanese couple of living there and they appreciated the fact that the Japanese people were very, very quiet, they paid the rent and then they didn' ; t complain about anything. And so that was my first, ah room that had. Then that was the biggest, biggest surprise was that first night that I slept there because it was 4th of July, it was hot. It was in the 90s. So naturally, you just take your--sleep bare on the top part and then I went to sleep. And then what, 10 minutes later, I felt stinging sensations all over my chest. And then I have wonder what happened, so I put the light on, I found bug, little bugs that were crawling on my chest and then I took them and I pressed some of them and find blood, my blood, my good blood all over there. And that' ; s my first encounter with bedbugs and it was, it was really something. And so I asked people, gee what do you do? He says well you can use chemicals, you can use sulfur to kill them, but it doesn' ; t do any good if the building is infested then it' ; s no use because that it would be the short time, before they come back again. So the only way way to leave your lights on and tried to sleep with the lights on. And that was my first night. And, and then I found out about, first time about bedbugs. And I' ; ve go into the city of Chicago the last couple of years, they were saying there were several areas that the troubles, bedbugs, anything. AT:00:45:00And remind me where that building was? BC:00:45:03Pardon? AT:00:45:03Remind me where that building was? BC:00:45:05Yes, that was right on, right on 67, 67, 6017 Woodlawn. And that was, there was a small Japanese community there. Not a community, but a few people living there and like I said, there were no stores, no grocery stores, no restaurants or anything just apartment. And there was a, I guess a lower-middle class area and um, and 66th street was very shopping center. It was a good shopping center, they have stores and restaurants, they had movies and such. AT:00:45:49And then how were you getting around? BC:00:45:53The only way we got around was--nobody had cars or anything like that. So they had street cars and they had the L, L, L. And so, uh, and also where I wasn' ; t living from there, you can go a balanced days on the, what they call the Illinois Central Railroad. Those are the three main one. So transportation in itself was good. Yeah. AT:00:46:20And the WRA office, you said you were instructed to? BC:00:46:26Registered there, yes. AT:00:46:28And where was that office? BC:00:46:29That was in the city there, the city of Chicago. I forgot where it was but right in the city, yeah. AT:00:46:36So it was like I' ; m in a city officer or something? BC:00:46:40Yes, uhuh. AT:00:46:42And did you only visit that office that one time? BC:00:46:51I was able to call in after, so overnight when I moved a couple of times I, I called and that was dealt with all I did. AT:00:47:05What was the reason for you calling? BC:00:47:07Well, I guess all these people like us who had, who had fathers in concentration camps probably was a matter of security and they thought that perhaps it was just a secur, security situation and once they realized that we were going to school and everything and wherever you do register and know where you were and it was, it was okay. Yeah. AT:00:47:39Would you happen to remember, um, the areas they were suggesting you look for housing? BC:00:47:50No, I don' ; t, but there was more in the North Side and the West Side at that time, but I don' ; t remember now, but it was not where I was going to which was the South Side, which had, which had housing that was more, more econ, economical then the other area. AT:00:48:13And then how long were you at 6017 BC:00:48:17We all, well, I was in that one small, sleeping room and I had a friend that was, had a bigger unit there and he had a bigger apartment where they had some kitchenette in the corner that had a lot of big bed. They called them Murphy beds and you can push and they go up to this on the wall. And uh, so he invited me. Why don' ; t you come and stay with me? And so I say, he said, come stay with me because we don' ; t have any bugs, bug, bed bugs. So I said okay, sure. So I, I decided to stay with him and the first night sleeping in his bed, which is a big double bed. I had that same problem. All of a sudden they start to bite me. And um, and then I took turn the lights on and then, and then they find the bugs and had the same problem they were. And he sitting right sleeping right next to me without a shirt on and he doesn' ; t get bitten at all. And so I said, boy, I said, I took a couple and put them right on his chest and all of the stinkin bug was just move around and just moved away. And so it just affects certain people just like mosquitoes. And so they love certain people, certain people they don' ; t even bother. And so it was a couple of weeks time then, not only that, every time we turn the lights on off, cockroaches will just go into the crevices and then put the light on and they just scatter. And so we said oh, well, we asked around to see if we how we can exterminate some of these people, some of these bugs. And um, there was a chemical which is now was, is band after that, because it' ; s poisonous. I forgot the name of it, but, but that, that was very effective. You spray or on the mattress, crevices and everything like that. But then as far as the cockroaches go they said they have you have to use sulfur. So we got sulfur, put it in a bottle and we left the sulfur and we left there for almost a day, full day. And then we went back there in the evening and I found all the cockroaches, sleeping, no dead, cockroaches. And it was all right, for about one month then start coming again. Again they find out that once the, once the building is infested with cockroaches, you just can' ; t exterminate one room because the whole house has to be exterminated. So that was it. AT:00:51:27And what about, while you were living there, were you enrolled at a school in the city? BC:00:51:33At that time, that was July and school wasn' ; t going to start ' ; til September. So because with the money that I made in camp, which is $60 a month, you couldn' ; t save any money. And uh, I didn' ; t have any money, so I looked for a job. I found a job on the 30, 6300 street on the West Side. And so I went to work for the company called H.P. Smith. And at that time they were making a wax paper that were used to line a cigarette packages because they couldn' ; t use a tin foil. Tin foil was used for ammunition for bullets. And that' ; s where I worked and I worked from about 8 o' ; clock to 6, 6 o' ; clock [inaudible]. And then I started school in September and when I started school I asked them, you know, could I change to, to a, a later shift? And they had three shifts going at that time and the second shift was from 4 o' ; clock to 1 o' ; clock in the evening 1 night. And so I was able to change my job hours and I went to school from 9:00 to 3:00 and I got out of school and took the L and went all the way on to 6000 South, um, and 3300 West and worked from, from 4 o' ; clock to 1 o' ; clock, to midnight, I' ; m sorry, 4, 4 to midnight. That was the second shift. And then I had to go home and take a bath and, and sleep and I get up in the morning and then go to school got up at 7 o' ; clock, had breakfast and then go to school. And most of my studying was, was uh, on the way to the school--on the bus, or the street car, there was a street car going at that time also. But it wasn' ; t too bad because as far as school was concerned with was more clinical work. It was in my last year actually so, it was all clin, mostly clinical, so it didn' ; t have too much bookwork work concerned. But then we did, I did that for six months and I just couldn' ; t take it anymore. So I quit my job at H.P. Smith and still went to school then and I was able to find a job right now, the school that I was going to was in, was in the loop of Chicago loop on Walker...Walkered, Whacker Drive and the, and the, and a Chicago River. And so I was find, I was able to find a, uh, a job to the Capital Optical, which was grinding lenses. So that was fine. I got a lot of experience about lenses and such. And so, so I worked there from 4 o' ; clock to closing time, which was about 6 or 6:30. AT:00:55:01And, um, at, at the time that, that you' ; re working and in school, besides your friend who helped you out when you first moved? Did you know any other people in the city? BC:00:55:15Oh yes, I knew people because we had people that were living around 43rd Street towards the people, and, and um, and people that were living in the same apartment. And several other people that, uh used to be. So we had friends there. Yes, as far as that' ; s concerned. AT:00:55:36Were they folks that you knew from camp or back home? BC:00:55:40Mostly, several from back home and, and several from camp and then other people that had moved there. So it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t as, it was not a lonely or related to situations or anything like that. But then...And then when I, after I graduated, I, I, uh, told my boss at the Capital Optical where I was grinding lenses that uh, I wanted to quit because I wanted to find a job, maybe working as an optometrist someplace. And he said, " ; Well, I hate to lose you, he said. But let me see what I can do for you." ; So this is being that it was the whole, wholesale optical shop where they made glasses and there was everything like that. And so all the doctors used to come there and he, and he asks what are the doctors were very, they came almost every day. His name was Dr. Hurst or Walter Hurst. And talked to him, he said. And then he was a very kind gentleman, nice gentleman. He says, yeah. He says, " ; Well, why do I do arrangement so that he works there over there at that shop for you at work, at the Capital Optical. And then have a couple of at the nighttime because he only worked 5 o' ; clock and he' ; s dead and he can use my office. So he made arrangements. So I go to the office and the nighttime. So I worked there from, I went there from 6 o' ; clock, sometimes 7, 8 o' ; clock at night. And the only thing I had to do was clean his office for him a little bit. Clean the walk, clean the waiting room a little bit and whatever supplies I use, I, I replenished. And that' ; s all I had. So, uh, I, I, I, I worked there for about six, six months and, and, and, and, and have some of my patients that I knew evening night. So it was, it was very nice. Very very nice. AT:00:57:47For some of the other folks that you knew who were living in the city, do you know what, was it relatively easy or was it difficult finding, finding work or? BC:00:58:06That time in Chicago, I think I, if you look through the war [inaudible] it was full of opportunities that almost every kind of job, you know, because the young people have gone to war and Chicago was probably one of the big cities that, that, that was in defense work. And so I don' ; t think it was any trouble for most people to find a job as far as Chicago' ; s concerned. And that' ; s probably the one big reason that so many people came to Chicago at that time from Rohwer and uh, and Jerome, Arkansas. AT:00:58:51And uh, what year did you finish your schooling? BC:00:58:55My, I finished, I in uh May of 1944. And then I took my state board in July and then I got my license and after I got my license, I worked at Capital that then I opened my office, my office, and I made enough money saved up money so was able to open my office in 1945, right on Clark and Division. AT:00:59:39What was the address there? Do you have BC:00:59:411200 North Clark Street. At that time, I guess because settlements of Japanese were in that Ellis/[Oakland?] area from about 19, 1941, I mean 1942, and up to ' ; 45 and ' ; 45, ' ; 4 or ' ; 5 And then it was a small group that lived on the South Side where I was before in the 1600 block and then Clark and Division. But by that time there were a lot of people leaving camp. It was towards the end of the war and then towards, uh in 1945. So they were a lot of them coming to Chicago. And at Clark and Division was probably the biggest settlement of Japanese people because from all the way from Chicago Avenue to North Avenue, East, North and South and East and West and it was about from Dearborn Street until uh to Wells Street. So it was a long area. And by that time I opened my office, my office, 1945 and I stayed til 1960. And the reason I had to move was because that whole area from Chicago to, uh, I mean, I' ; m sorry from Division Street, I mean the Clark and Division, yeah, Division street to North Avenue was to be demolished and, and, and urban renewal was going to set up, build a lot of high rises. And as you know that whole area is full of high rises with about 20. And, and the, and the, at the time from 1945 I was [inaudible] But 1960, 1965 all the way through Clark Street and and on both sides of the street. Oh, probably every, every other, every other store or apartment was run by Japanese people. So there was quite a, quite a settlement there. And it was talking about a Japanese, a Japanese, uh uh area probably that was the biggest, probably. AT:01:02:19Do you remember any of the names of businesses? BC:01:02:19Oh, there were a lot of stores. There was Son grocery stores and Toguri' ; s and all those stores. And Hidaka' ; s clear, clear, cleanings. And, and we had...I was upstairs, right on Clark and Division. We have myself. We had Jiro Yamaguchi was an attorney and here we had Dr. Hira, the dentist. And then there was a Tom Hira and there was--even JACL had, had a small office at that time for just a few times, few years. But, there were all kinds of restaurants. There was, um, it was a movie house right across the street from my office. There were grocer, drugstores and bowling alleys and, and so it was quite a community as far as community' ; s concerned. And when, when that, when they started to demolish that area, all the buildings, every building was demolished. So people started to move from Clark and Division, those people that, well, in other words, those people on the east side of Clark Street were alright because they were, that they were in the, and the, and on the west side of, of, uh, LaSalle Street was, were not going to be demolished. Yes. That' ; s just the area between the LaSalle Street and Clark Street, and so those people had to move. And so those people most of them moved a little further north in that area that they call Oakdale to, to, uh, about the other side of Wrigley Field. And then the east and west from Southport all the way to Broadway. It was a diverse area. Geographically, it was a big area, not like Clark and Division, Clark and Division. But there were, oh, there were all kinds of grocery stores. You have--Kaneko' ; s were there, they had a lot of rooming houses. [Chiya Tomiya' ; s?] father had buildings there. And, so there, it was a bustling area, really. AT:01:04:38And I' ; m noticing you' ; re remembering a lot of businesses by, by name. And the family' ; s too. BC:01:04:46Oh yeah. I was there long enough and we used to, we used to see a lot of the same people. So we knew most of the people that were there, I wouldn' ; t say more but quite a few. Yeah. [Kei Kawahara?] had that beauty shop right across the street from my office and the Mark Twain Hotel. In fact, Mark Twain is probably the only 20, hmm Mark Twain is probably one of the only buildings that are still remaining from that time ' ; cuz all the other buildings have been demolished. New buildings have come up and new stores come up. And so that' ; s about the only place. AT:01:05:31And where were you getting most of your patients from? Is it just the area? BC:01:05:35As far as myself is concerned, probably I was probably the luckiest person alive. Everything I did turned out well and uh and I was probably the earliest of the optometry, Japanese optometrists and there was about the same time that I started, ah the South Side, uh, uh, Randolph' ; s [Kai Dr. Sakata?]. Opened their office on South Side and I was, Clark and Division was on North Side and most of the people that came from different camps were mostly from Rohwer and Jerome in, in, in, in, uh, in the camp that was Rohwer. I was working an optometrist there. So when I was in Clark and Division, they all came to me and I was the only, then the Japanese Issei' ; s came after their children were in Chicago, they brought their family and they couldn' ; t speak any English, so they already, they were coming to me. So, so I was, from very beginning, I was very fortunate to, very, very busy, busy. AT:01:07:08And uh, BC:01:07:08See that, that area that at that Clark and Division. That' ; s where the Chicago Resettlers, which is now the, ah, JASC used to have their first building, 1160 North Clark Street. And their primary function at that time was to take care of people that wanted to find housing jobs. And so they were very helpful for a lot of people that are looking for jobs in the city. AT:01:07:42Did you ever use their services? BC:01:07:45Pardon? AT:01:07:45Did you ever use their services? BC:01:07:47No. No, I never did have to, use. Uhuh. AT:01:07:52Did you know the folks who were working there? BC:01:07:55Yes. Well, yeah, um Koki Kawasaki was probably the first person there. And then there was Abe Hagiwara which is his...Every, every person in Chicago, any young person should know, should know, and I appreciate what he did for everyone because he was a social worker and he was set up, uh, we have, we take trips, we used to take trips, to YMCA camps and, and he used to, was a social worker and uh gradually, as more and more people, young people came with, we developed a lot of social activities. Uh, and, and uh, sports activities, and gradually, like, in our case, our church, um, eventually because the fact that we had to move to all an institute and we stayed there for about two years and then, uh, he was there at that time. He moved there too as a social director of the Olivet Institute. And uh, from there we, we developed basketball teams and, what they call the Japanese American Service. I mean uh, the JAS, CNAA, Chicago, Nisei Aesthetic Association. And um, and then we had, we had mostly young people I think, but this building and we had. AT:01:09:44Were you, were you involved in organizing some? BC:01:09:47Yes, yes. Yeah. Abe and us and I think several others yeah, and we got. At that time there were quite a few churches, there was probably about six or seven Christian churches with that Japanese population two Buddhist church. And there were a lot of girls, teams, girls' ; social clubs and there they had had boys clubs and everything. And we assembled. The leader is different for every different group. Got together and said, why don' ; t we set up a basketball team, league and that was the beginning of the league. And um, then after that' ; d we--well we had all different scenes, we had most of the games at the beginning. Was at [Oliver?] Institute where Abe Hagiwara was the associate director, but then the, the league got so big that we had to, to go to the, to rent some of the high schools' ; gymnasiums in the South Side. And eventually we moved to the [Chute?] Junior High School in Evanston and we had our basketball games and um, on Saturday, all day Saturday and on Sundays from 1 o' ; clock. And then that became too small because we had a lot of girls team and we had some younger teams of people from maybe 12 or 13 and they had and then rented a Middle School, [Haven?] School in the Nor, in Evanston. So. And then, and then from the basketball it was very big a league. And then we had towards the end of this season we had the team from Detroit, Cleveland, Minneapolis come through for a tournament. And so, and then from there we started baseball, baseball leagues and we had every Sunday we were able to rent a Grant Park and they have six baseball fields there. And so we use to occupy all six of them. And it was, it was, it was a lot of fun because we would, we would get, people will bring their lunches and we had the games from 1 o' ; clock and, and then yes. AT:01:12:42Were all of the participants Nisei, BC:01:12:44Pardon? AT:01:12:44Were all of the participants Nisei? In the league? BC:01:12:52All of them? AT:01:12:52Um, everyone in CNAA was everyone Nisei, including the kids you were bringing in from Detroit and Cleveland? Mrs Chikaraishi:01:13:00It sounds like Nisei and Sansei weren' ; t there? BC:01:13:01Oh yeah. We mostly, mostly, Nisei' ; s when it started, but then, and then we got into the Sansei' ; s because we started the leagues in 19, about 1946 and that was the only for mostly fellows and then, and then, uh, yeah, they had to expand to a younger groups of people coming. And then the Sansei. So we, the league itself, the CNAA was from 1946 to I' ; d say about 60. Yeah. AT:01:13:37And um, you were involved in organizing that through MBT, is that right? BC:01:13:44Yes. That MBT there were about three or three or four of us, [Yas Hara?] another fellow from Christ Congregational Church and somebody from the, [Mas Kimotsu?] from the CCP. And so different school. So we got, we always of got together to, to, to, uh, set up the leagues. Yeah. And we had all the representatives of the different churches and everything come in. AT:01:14:21And so another thing I wanted to ask you about was about your involvement with MBT and some of the in the early days? BC:01:14:33Early days? AT:01:14:33Can you tell me about? BC:01:14:33Well our first service was in July of 1944 and previous to that, late 1943, there was a group of um, Buddhists that were renting a monthly hall downtown on Van Buren and Clark Street. And, and um, so that was, and what happened is a lot of the younger people from Rohwer, came to Chicago. Ah the parents of the children was able to tell a certain Reverend Kono, who was the minister at the Rohwer, if he might go to Chicago to set up a church or some religious groups who, for religious work and everything like that. So he, he did that. He came to Chicago and with the help of about six or seven young people, they were able to set up the first uh. What happened is that, that he, Reverend Kono was, could not understand English. So he, he called a ministerial student from Poston, Poston now to Chicago. And he helped him and to set up the first first service. They contacted a lot of fraternal organizations and social clubs [inaudible] to see if they can rent, rent a space for us. And so they went to several, several places. But every place they went they said, well, we would have to talk to the board and see if it' ; s okay, but we never saw or heard from. Finally they were able to find we were able to find a social hall on 4400 break, block on South Park ah, South Park. And that was on the South Side, if we just now Marthar Lee, Marther, what' ; s his name? AT:01:17:02Martin Luther King BC:01:17:02Dr., yeah! And they we were able to route or a, rent a room in the back of the three story, uh building and had the ser, first service in July of 1944. And then, um, my friend Barry [Saiki?] was one of the leading groups that organize the group. And he asked me several times to become, to help set it up. But I told him that gee, I was just starting studying for my book, my State Board. And I didn' ; t want to miss that because the fact that gee, I spent, uh, two, two, two extra, two extra, two ex, one year extra because of evacuation and then you want me to miss me getting my license. So I missed the first service, but I, I went to the second service which was helping that social agency building in the south side street, in the back, back room. And we only had 17 people at the service and it was kind of funny because when we weren' ; t the lead lead service that recall, no will tell us, please go out in couples don' ; t go out in big, to be, so she didn' ; t want us to be conspicuous. So we went in, couples about two or two people together. And uh, and then that' ; s it. Nobody had automobiles. So the on, the only means of transportation was the L. So we walked from the, they ah Parkway, a social agency building to the station and we walk in and at that time in July, and it was very hot. So, so it was even, it was a area where people would just sit on the sidewalks outside of the stores and as I, we walked by, they look at us, they look at us wondering what, I don' ; t think anybody in Chicago there was only about around Chicago area they said there was only about 490 ah Japanese families in this whole area. So they didn' ; t know what we were by Japanese [inaudible]. So everybody looked up. But nobody had encountered any trouble, didn' ; t have any trouble or anything like that. But then, and then gradually as a more people start to live with the Clark and Division area, we decided that we will look to see if we can find a building. Uh, where we can have a service on and the North Side and so we can have one service in the morning on the South and then one in the afternoon in the, at the Clark and Division area. And so, so we wanted to find out a lot trying to find a place, on the North Side. And somebody told us to call Dr. Preston Bradley. I think it' ; s well known that the head of the People' ; s Church at the, uh, right across from Heiwa Terrace that' ; s where their church is. And he told us, go to go see Dr. Preston Bracket Jack? I didn' ; t, I forget his name. But anyway, he was the executive director of the Council Against Racial and Religious Group. And so he said, well sure, I' ; ll be very happy to. He was, he was very aware of the situation of the Japanese people and he in fact, he had written several, several letters to the War Authority telling them about the situation. But it is, yeah, no, no, no effect at all what he said. But he said, " ; Call my brother. He' ; s got a theater on North Clark Street, I mean North LaSalle Street." ; So we called him and he said, sure, be happy to, happy to help, you know. So he said, he granted us, their theater which is a five, 500 foot, I mean 500 seat theater. [inaudible] theater on Sunday' ; s. So we had our services there for two years. And on the second year on, on April the 2nd, I remember that because I was supposed to be the speaker at the service at that time because we used to get lots of Japanese people, I mean English speaking Japanese people and, and, and I remember I, I, I didn' ; t have a car so I used to use the subway and I went up the subway and there I saw a waterfa, what to you call it? Uh, the uh... Mrs Chikaraishi:01:22:33Fire hydrants BC:01:22:34Well the hydrants were being used by these tubular water containers and they were stretched all the way from corner of Clark Street all the way to LaSalle Street AT:01:22:45A fire hose? BC:01:22:47Yeah! Fire hose, a fire hose yes yes. Yeah. There were all several hoses going all the way, I was wondering what happened, cause gee, it' ; s going the same direction I' ; m going. And they went back to the theater at Uptown, Uptown Players Hall. That' ; s what they called ah where we have the services. And find out that that night and there was a big fire. And uh, and then that whole building demolished. And so, so after that we had all, Jack of all of the executive director and he goes why don' ; t you go to all of Olivet Institute? That' ; s what we got out into the, Olivet Institute. AT:01:23:35Do you know? BC:01:23:35Yes? AT:01:23:36What was the cause of the fire was? BC:01:23:37That I don' ; t know, you know, because it was a big fire so that' ; s all I know. Yeah. Then then, then over there at the Olivet Institute, there was a person named Mr. Highsted who was really a wonderful gentleman and he said sure, he' ; d be happy to help us. So he rented a hall, a main hall for $40 a whole month. And we have every Sunday morning services there. We had our social service, in fact, at about time, the Olivet Institute was probably the, the, the one, one are or place where Japanese people that the young people, uh, men, ladies, they have all their socials. They had dances there, they had everything there, a lot of events, they had basketball games there. Yeah. AT:01:24:45And um, just for context, um, by this time your family has probably arrived to Chicago, is that correct? BC:01:24:52Yes, yes, the families have. This was, this was in 1946. AT:01:25:02And where did your family, did your family come to live with you or did they BC:01:25:06Well, they came and uh, we were in the same building on 75th, 757 ah Brompton Place and they had their own apartments. We had our own apartments there and the fact that owner of that, the owner of the building was [Mr. Murata?]. And then, and I don' ; t know if you knew or knew or heard of Jane [Murata?] Yeah, that' ; s her father' ; s place. So we lived there for several years and then after living there for several years we decided that, uh, that perhaps uh, we should look for a place and so we found a place on the Fremont Street near Cubs Park. AT:01:26:00Is this you and your wife? BC:01:26:04Well, together together, Joe' ; s my wife' ; s brother, he was in the service at that time. So he had a furlough. So we walked around certain areas. And we happened to see this for sale sign for the building. So we went and looked at the building and asked the building and so we liked it. It was well maintained and everything. So. So we said, well, we' ; re going to buy it. Yeah. It was that simple at that time we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t go asking your neighbors or anything like that. AT:01:26:47So it seems to me that in the, your early days in Chicago, um, you were pretty involved with the Japanese American community. BC:01:26:59Yes. Yes. As much as I could. Yes. AT:01:27:03What, what drove you to want to be involved? BC:01:27:08Pardon? AT:01:27:08Why did you want to be involved? What drove you? BC:01:27:11Well, let' ; s see. Well, there are so many young people in our churches and then, and in Japanese family that we knew that perhaps it' ; d be nice if they have some something that keep them busy, keep them out of trouble and it can hardly be happy to say that while we had our, ours CNAA, we didn' ; t have any person that we knew that it had gotten in trouble or did drugs and things like that. And so busy because we had a basketball, basketball season, baseball season, and we had track meets, we had volleyball and uh, all kinds of things. So all year round we were. And was, it was, it was nice. It had a, uh, not only help the young people, I think it helped the adults also because I, in order to maintain the teams, you know, we had to buy that job, the churches and everything. They had to buy a equipment for basketball and baseball and all the other things like that. And so, so practically every weekend we had different groups, different churches, and things, they had their, ah spaghetti dinner, we had a pancake breakfast, so we used to, we used to support almost every group that happened. So for the every day, every, every weekend we had ah going to different places. And so we not only got the young people playing the sports but for the parents. So, so it was very, very good. AT:01:29:02And um, are you still involved with the Japanese American community today and the church? BC:01:29:10Not, not, no, no, but, but even at that time or later, uh, after my wife and I got married and we had children and we had, we had to go to church to help at the church at uh almost every, every Sunday. And then, um, and uh, took so much time that we had more seats a the church. So I didn' ; t to participate too much in the political activities, but mostly I, in the athletics and the social programs. AT:01:29:53And what, how do you think, how does the, the Japanese American community in Chicago had, how would you compare it from those early days of resettling to today? What are some of the things you' ; ve seen change over the years? BC:01:30:16The situation is so different now, you know, that at that time the church has probably the area where most of the social programs or recreational programs and cultural programs, uh, they were the center of, of the old activities. And so the people had to assemble at the different churches. Not just the Buddhist churches just but the other churches too. And then now, now that the Japanese people like in Chicago, as you know, have probably half of the Japanese people living in the suburb like you people probably do. And just ah half in the city and their recreational activities and source of [community?] are so different. Um, they have more electronic games. There are different kinds of, uh, and those days, in the early days people did not have the means to, for all of those electronic things that they had but. And so the social, the athletics and such, were the only way that they can, they can spend their time. AT:01:31:51And what about your, your hopes for the, for the future of the community and maybe of your children and your grandchildren? BC:01:32:01Well, I think like our children, we have a big family. We have, we have 16, 16 grandchildren and 6 great grandchildren and they' ; re all assimilated and they live in different areas and, and um, is so different from the times that we did things together really as a family because they have so many but, but, but I think things, it comes to things that are a little different than much different from time when we were here yeah. AT:01:32:46And what about, um, any lessons that can be taken from the, like some of your war time experiences and resettling to Chicago. What, why is this, this history of um, I guess the Japanese American experience, why is that important and why should people BC:01:33:11I, I think that assimilation, like all our grandchildren are living separately, I mean, not separate areas and um, well, it' ; s so different from the times that we had because of the economic situation, the, uh, the so many things that they enjoy. Mrs Chikaraishi:01:33:47They assimilate into their own friends. So it' ; s changing for them I think. BC:01:33:47So, so, so we' ; re very comforted that hopefully that I, our children and our grandchildren will retain some of the, the, uh, the, the uh, values of the Issei' ; s and the Jap and the second generations and you know, as well that was one of the biggest things that the most important things Mrs Chikaraishi:01:34:17There are a lot of good things about Japanese culture. BC:01:34:17We always telling own children to behave themselves to, don' ; t do anything that will disgrace the family and, and stay out of trouble. And, and, uh, we just hope that some of the values of that that was handed down will continue and that' ; s one thing that had to hope that something would happen. AT:01:34:43And before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add or that we might' ; ve missed in the conversation? BC:01:34:54Hmm. No, what do you think I can say is that my wife and I, we can say that we' ; re very fortunate. We both in good health, we lived a long life. We regret the fact that Mrs Chikaraishi:01:35:14We brag a little about our kids BC:01:35:14We lost some of our friends and, and uh, we had good children that never had any trouble in our lifetime. Mrs Chikaraishi:01:35:32The Japanese community BC:01:35:32Yeah. Yes. Probably our grandfather and grandmother saying the same thing they' ; re really happy to have a good family like yours, yours, and the whole family. Yeah. AT:01:35:46Well, thank you so much for coming in and speaking about your experiences. BC:01:35:48You' ; re welcome. I hope that I can help in some way or anything like that, but yes. AT:01:35:57Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ChikaraishiBen20171031.xml ChikaraishiBen20171031.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Chikaraishi, Ben (10/31/2017)
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Community leader Ben Chikaraishi describes his family’s experiences in Rohwer, the WRA, and resettlement in Chicago. He shares his career trajectory as an optometrist, from working in the camp as an assistant, to his work in Chicago while in school, to owning his own practice on Clark and Division. He describes in detail the Japanese American community in that area. Ben also shares his involvement with social organizations like the CNAA and MBT in the Chicago Japanese American community and expresses hope that future generations will carry on Japanese cultural traditions.
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2017-10-31
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/463" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Matsumoto, Jason (9/10/2019)</a>
Series: Then They Came for Me