12
10
140
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/80b9d0033f6b3d74569b275a843bfa32.png
a8fc44a193dd18db14dc2cf64cf44b8c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Oba, Ken
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Poston
Fukuoka
JASC
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/2/2021 Oba, Ken (6/2/2021) 48:26:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Sansei Poston Fukuoka JASC Oba, Ken Lincoln, Emma video 1:|26(10)|42(12)|60(4)|73(9)|95(12)|111(15)|128(13)|143(1)|154(7)|170(3)|185(1)|206(6)|219(1)|232(10)|244(14)|261(4)|275(5)|290(3)|305(13)|317(17)|331(1)|342(1)|356(1)|370(3)|388(4)|400(8)|411(15)|423(6)|434(10)|447(15)|462(9)|476(5)|488(9)|501(15)|511(4)|527(5)|538(13)|550(16)|565(7)|582(1)|596(1)|608(5)|632(4)|644(11)|657(6)|671(7)|685(9)|701(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/562844491/a71d373653 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/562844491?h=a71d373653" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ken Oba, a Chicago-born sansei, shares memories of growing up on the South Side in the Hyde Park and Avalon Park neighborhoods. His parents, born in Los Angeles, CA and Honolulu, HI, were both incarcerated at Poston during WWII before resettling in Chicago, but rarely spoke of their experiences. Ken discusses the ways in which his Japanese American identity did and did not impact his life, shares his thoughts on the importance of all of the ethnic identities that his multiracial children and grandchildren possess, and describes his motivations for volunteering at a variety of organizations post-retirement. Of particular note are Ken's descriptions of his experiences visiting Poston and visiting Japan as an adult. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is June 2nd, 2021. And this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Kenneth Oba. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Let' ; s get started. So we' ; re going to start with just some background questions. Ken Oba: Sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: And if you could get us going by stating your full name, please. Ken Oba: My full name is Kenneth Kaoru Oba. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what is your year of birth? Ken Oba: 1951. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Ken Oba: In Chicago, Illinois. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did you also grow up in Chicago? Ken Oba: Yes, all my life. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were your parents and grandparents born and raised? Ken Oba: My father was born in Los Angeles, California and my mother was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. And I believe all their parents were, were born in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know what kind of work your grandparents were doing in Hawaii and in Los Angeles? Ken Oba: I don' ; t know at all the grandparents in, in Hawaii. I don' ; t know much about my mother' ; s side. But my father' ; s side, I' ; m almost positive that, you know they, they had a farm near Fukuoka, so I assume they were, that they were farmers. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your father' ; s family remain in Los Angeles all the way up until World War II? Ken Oba: No. My father, he was the oldest of, he had two brothers and one sister. And, when he graduated from high school, I forget the year, his mother, be my, my grandmother, was killed in an automobile accident. And then I think it was a few years after that, then my grandfather took you know, all the, all the kids back to kind of the home in Japan, near, near Fukuoka. But then, then sometime after that, then my dad came back to the, came back to the U.S. and then it was followed by his, the next oldest brother. And so they were here in the U.S. during World War II. And then another brother and then the sister remained in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: So the family was split? Ken Oba: Exactly. Emma Saito Lincoln: On opposite sides of that war. Do you know what prompted your dad to come back to the U.S.? Ken Oba: I' ; ll say, I don' ; t know exactly. But, but I kind of think you know, he was born and you know, was raised in Los Angeles and I think he wasn' ; t necessarily, I' ; ll say, that thrilled to you know, to b-- to be living in Japan. It was just really a very different life you know in Los Angeles... You know, it was a city, and Fukuoka was out in the country, you know a farm. And I, I think it was kind of, you know, I don' ; t want to say difficult, but I, I think you know, he, he kind of longed to come back to the U.S. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know if he spoke Japanese? Did he grow up speaking Japanese? Ken Oba: I believe he, he did. He and my mother you know, never spoke Japanese at home, you know, really rarely. But I knew he knew how to speak Japanese. So I assume you know either, knew before or you know, lear-- you know he' ; s probably able to speak Japanese when he was in, in Japan. Emma Saito Lincoln: Mhmm. So when Pearl Harbor happened and the U.S. and Japan were at war with each other, it was your father and one of his brothers who were living here in the U.S.? Ken Oba: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. Ken Oba: Yeah his, you know the, you know it was his next oldest brother, named Masao. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then they were within the exclusion zone. They were, were they sent to incarceration camps? Ken Oba: Right. So my dad, he was in Poston. That' ; s a camp in Arizona you know, near the California border. And a couple years ago, my wife and I, we were in Phoenix you know vacationing for the winter and we, we drove to Poston. There' ; s not much there. But then my uncle, you know Mas, he was in the camp in Manzanar, California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your parents ever talk about what happened during the war? Ken Oba: Not really. Not really, no. Neither my, my dad and then my mom, she passed away when I was a, a freshman in high school. You know, but you know really, she never, you know she never said anything about the camp. But she w--, she was also in Poston. Emma Saito Lincoln: So she' ; d grown up in Hawaii. Had she then come to the mainland? Ken Oba: Right. She w-- she was, I believe, living in Los Angeles. But really, I don' ; t know in a way that much, you know that, that much about her. But you know, I, I' ; m really positive she was living in Los Angeles at, at the time that the you know war, you know war broke out. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then so after, both of your parents were in Poston, and after that, did they come straight to Chicago or... Ken Oba: I believe they, they came straight to Chicago. And again, I' ; m only kind of guessing that you know, maybe they didn' ; t want to or maybe there' ; s no reason to go back to the, to the West Coast. But they both, you know came, I believe, directly, directly to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: And were they already married at that point or was that, did that happen after? Ken Oba: They weren' ; t married in, in camp. So I, I' ; m almost positi--, well, really, I, I' ; m positive they got married when, when they came, came to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: So if this isn' ; t something that your parents talked about, when you were growing up, were you even aware that your parents had been incarcerated or that many Japanese Americans had been incarcerated? Ken Oba: No, not, not, not, not really. I have to admit, I don' ; t remember when you know I kind of learned of that because you know I don' ; t think it was something you know we learned you know in grammar school or high school. I have to admit I' ; m not exactly sure when. I would say I was more... you know more adultish than a kid that, you know when I kind of became aware. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you feel now that you have a pretty clear understanding of what happened during World War II, to Japanese Americans? Ken Oba: In a way, I' ; d say no. You know I, I' ; ve read you know some books. I' ; ve read some... You know, I' ; ve heard people speak. But I, I' ; d say it' ; s really hard to, you know... You can get an understanding overall what happened, you know the people being incarcerated in various, in various camps. But like in terms of their lives you know... You know I' ; ll say I, I really can' ; t you know imagine. It seemed like it was awfully, you know, awfully, awfully difficult you know, being uprooted and you know being in you know a hostile you know situation kind of, in, in many, you know in many respects. Emma Saito Lincoln: Given what you know now as an adult about the incarceration experience, are there things that you experienced or that you observed with your own parents that you think might be a result of that history? Ken Oba: In a way, I, I guess generally, I would say no. My dad, you know he, you know I' ; ll say kind of embraced you know the, the government knowing, you know what was good, good for you. And then you know when I was you know say, you know college age and you know I grew up in you know the ' ; 70s and you know Vietnam War protests. And you know not that I was you know radical, but like the idea of like you know, not necessarily accepting what the government was saying. But my, you know my father, he seemed to be more of a mind that, yeah, the government knows best and you know it was hard for me to kind of understand that, given that, well, the government had put him and the brother and you know others in, in, in, in the camps you know really you know under like, I' ; ll say like false pretenses you know? So, and then my mom, again, I don' ; t think any kind of conversation ever came up. You know she was a nurse, and you know I just knew she was my mom and you know... But there was... I' ; d say there really wasn' ; t anything like that. Emma Saito Lincoln: So where, where in Chicago were your parents living? Ken Oba: On the South Side, in Hyde Park, which is you know... The most prominent things there are like Museum of Science and Industry and University of Chicago. We lived, I think at 51st Street and Blackstone, in Hyde Park until I was you know I think like six years old. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you remember much about that home? Ken Oba: The things I remember, there was a fire one time. You know not in our unit but in the building, and firefighters came and broke a lot of windows and there was all sorts of excitement. But, but it was like by the lakefront and we used to go to the park there and that was you know, that was, that, that was a lot of fun. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you lived in Hyde Park, were there any other Japanese or Japanese American families nearby? Ken Oba: I' ; m sure there were. But you know I was, like I said, we lived there until I was, say five. So, you know, I didn' ; t really socialize that much. It was like, you know sometimes I go to the park, you know try to, try to play baseball or I don' ; t think I was riding, you know I don' ; t think I was riding a bike at that point. But I have to say, really, I, I' ; m sure, you know looking back, I know there were other Japanese in the neighborhood. But I' ; ll say we didn' ; t necessarily, necessarily, know, know them. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you, for example, you weren' ; t living in a building that had, you know, predominantly was occupied by other Japanese families? Ken Oba: No. No, yeah, no. But nearby, then my uncle, you know the other brother, Mas, you know, he, he lived nearby as, as well. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then when your family moved, where did they move to? Ken Oba: To further south, 81st and Woodlawn. You know, I think it' ; s the Avalon Park neighborhood. And we lived there really through all my formative years, you know childhood years. And I graduated high school, graduated college and lived there for a couple years after, after I was working. Then I moved to the North Side just ' ; cause a lot of people I knew, you know moved to the North Side. And then my dad, you know, who was retired at the time, he moved to Anaheim, California. So that was, then that was it. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were growing up, you mentioned your mother was a nurse. What was your father' ; s occupation? Ken Oba: He was a tool and die designer and he worked at either a company or for Bally, which was, became pretty big in making pinball machines because sometimes we had, not pinball machines but like, these smaller arcade games at our house. But he was a tool and die designer. And then later on he did the same thing for a company that made, like weather stripping. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you have any really strong memories of growing up on the South Side? Ken Oba: Yeah. I' ; d say all my, you know, I' ; d say my childhood memories of you know, I' ; ll just say I was typical, I would say like American boy. You know, most of my time was you know, was outside and you know, you know we would play, just every kind of sport. Baseball, football, basketball. In the winter, we' ; d ice skate. You know, it was great. There were, you know a big park nearby and there were plenty of, you know mainly other boys to you know, to, to, to play with. So, I remember, you know really very fondly, I had a great time. Emma Saito Lincoln: How would you characterize the relationship that you had with your parents? Ken Oba: I' ; d say it was very, v-very good. Unfortunately, I' ; ll say I didn' ; t know my mom. You know, wish I could have, you know known her longer. My dad, really, you know, I' ; d say he really made our family. You know, he, he didn' ; t go to college, you know so I think he took, you know, well, it wouldn' ; t be online classes at the time, but, you know I think you know, somehow he was able to become a tool and die designer. He also fixed, you know watches. But, you know he set, you know the stage for like, you know me going to college and my brother going to college. And so I really appreciate that. But I have to say, you know up until, I' ; ll say, even until the end when he was getting older and, you know obviously, I, I was an adult, you know I was always the little kid that, you know he was gonna, you know he would, he would tell me what to do you know, no matter, no matter what it came to. You know, and so I have to say now that I' ; m a grandfather, you know I' ; ll say I try to have a little... I' ; ll take that perspective when I' ; m dealing with my, my two kids. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you have the opportunity to know any of your own grandparents? Ken Oba: No. No, not... ' ; Cause I never met my father' ; s, you know, grandfather. I did meet my mother' ; s mother. You know, she lived in Los Angeles you know and so on vacations we, we visited there. And so I, so I did, I did meet her. Probably the main thing I remember she had a, a parrot you know that would talk and, you know make a lot of noises. And we thought, " ; Boy, that' ; s pretty, you know, that w--, that was pretty interesting." ; I think she lived not too far from Japantown, in Los Angeles. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were growing up, did your parents socialize with any other Japanese Americans that, that you know of? Ken Oba: I' ; d say mainly at the New Year' ; s holidays. You know, my parents, I think primarily my mom, would make, you know Japanese dishes and then we would go to other, the homes of other Japanese families and they would come to our house. But I' ; d say it was primarily like at the, at, at the holidays. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did your family belong to any Japanese American organizations? Ken Oba: I know my, my dad, you know, I guess I forget you know, how, how I know that he w-- he, he was a member at some point of the Japanese American, you know Service Committee. I, I don' ; t know, know about my mom, but I don' ; t necessarily remember them being active or my dad being active, you know, because the JASC was also located on the North Side of the, the city. But never remember... ' ; cause the first time I remember coming to the JASC was when I moved to the North Side and I came, you know, they would have blood drives and I would come, come for that. Emma Saito Lincoln: When you were growing up, were you particularly aware of your identity as a Japanese American? Ken Oba: Well, I' ; d say obviously I knew I was Japanese. But there wasn' ; t, you know like, I' ; d say that, that, you know compelling or strong component of my you know, my, my, my personality. You know, I' ; ll say often that like, " ; Oh, I wish I was taller." ; You know, but, you know? But I' ; d say not necessarily because we didn' ; t go to you know a Japanese church, or you know I never learned to speak Japanese. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were you aware that there was a Japanese American community in Chicago or that there were Japanese American churches? Ken Oba: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I' ; d say particularly like in, even when we moved to Avalon Park that there was a, you know a Japanese community in Hyde Park. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you mentioned New Years. Were there any other sort of aspects of Japanese culture that your parents incorporated into your home life? Ken Oba: Well, they would make some, some Japanese dishes, you know foods. But that wasn' ; t like the vast majority. But they would, they would make some, you know, chicken teriyaki and, you know fish dishes. And I don' ; t think sushi so much because now I can see that' ; s kind of, kind of more time consuming to, to, to do. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were there any shops or restaurants that you remember from the South Side? Ken Oba: The only shop I remember is the grocery store. It was in Hyde Park, called Franklin Food. And that was there for a long time. I can remember going there and you know, well my dad carrying these big, I don' ; t know how heavy they were, they were like 30-pound or 50-pound you know, bags of rice and you know we would use, we would use that. But I remember Franklin Food was the main. I don' ; t remember any, necessarily any restaurants or, or anything... Or, or anything like that. I really, I really don' ; t. Emma Saito Lincoln: And during that time when you were growing up, did you or anyone in your family ever experience racism or bias? Ken Oba: I would say, I would say no. I' ; ll say as I got to be like in high school, I, I became more aware of bias. But not against myself or Japanese but more against you know well it' ; d be African Americans that you know had started moving into the South Side. And you know, again, I kinda witnessed, you know although I didn' ; t know it, that like the white flight as Caucasian homeowners you know, moved, moved away and... But really, but I, you know I know there were tensions there. And then when I was in high school when Martin Luther King was, was assassinated, that was, that was pretty tense you know? We were taken, it was pretty far from our high school home and you know getting on the bus. And, you know that was, you know so I became aware of... But just as a general of you know, kind of race relations, especially on the, on the South Side and kind of the coming of black gangs. You know, primarily at that time it was the Blackstone Rangers you know were becoming say like a, a thing a little bit. Emma Saito Lincoln: So I think, why don' ; t we transition to talking a little bit more about your path into adulthood and, and how your life took shape after high school. So, maybe if you could walk me through what you did after high school and then your move to the North Side. Ken Oba: Well really there isn' ; t... There isn' ; t very much you know. I, I started, you know my work career was, even in this day and age was pretty limited in terms of-- You know, I, I worked for the federal government as, as an auditor really through my whole, you know, whole, whole career. And, but then in terms of other things, you know really, I' ; ll say, I don' ; t know why, but I had, did have a sense of like community service. So then when I was, you know started working, which didn' ; t necessarily have anything necessarily to do with it, I, I started like donating blood, and then I, I started work--, you know not working for, but I was a big brother in the organization, Big Brothers, Big Sisters of Metropolitan Chicago. So I was a big brother to eventually like three young boys, one of whom was Japanese, and you know, he, he lived on, on the North Side, here. And I was also involved in the, what' ; s the... it' ; s the one that' ; s kind of opposite in the spectrum, the organization that deals with the, the elderly, you know elderly, elderly shut-in. Kind of... I can' ; t remember the name right now, but I know, you know I, actually I, actually I did some of their office work for, for a while. Emma Saito Lincoln: And somewhere along the way, you got married? Ken Oba: Yeah, I got married. You know, I was living on North Side. Met my wife you know, Kathy. You know she' ; s Irish, Irish Catholic, you know which was, you know kinda... You know, that does--, you know necessarily mean that much you know to, to me either way. I just remember you know our first date we went to you know kind a well known Japanese restaurant, Matsuya on Clark Street, near Wrigley Field. And then after that you know, she said she was sick. So, (laughs) so I didn' ; t know what to think about how things might proceed after that. But, you know she had said it was, wasn' ; t anything she ate at the restaurant or with me. And then kind of fast forwarding, you know we got, we got married, we had you know two kids, a boy and a girl. And fortunately, they, they' ; re grown up now. You know our daughter' ; s you know married and lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and has two, two little girls of her own, our granddaughters and we' ; re really, a lot of our time is spent you know doting on them. And our son is married and he and his wife live in Highland Park. They don' ; t, they don' ; t have kids, have kids yet. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you feel very welcomed by your wife' ; s family? Ken Oba: Oh, yes. Yeah. No really, really very much. You know and it was again, kind of looking at it, you know her father worked for the railroad for, for a long time, but kind of more important to that question, like one of his brothers had been killed you know in the Pacific theater in World War II. You know, but you know fortunately, you know they didn' ; t, they didn' ; t make a connection or you know that, you know t-to me or anything like that. And they were all, they were really very welcoming to me. And we spent many holidays you know at their house ' ; cause you know kinda by that time, after a while my dad was, was in California. Emma Saito Lincoln: And have you always lived in Chicago? Ken Oba: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: This whole time? Was that a choice to stay here or is it just sort of how, how it happened? Ken Oba: I, I' ; d say both. I mean there was really, you know all like my family was here, my friends were here and you know I didn' ; t, I was happy here. I had, you know for, for me, a good job and there wasn' ; t anything compelling to you know g-go elsewhere, you know? Especially after I met my wife, well then you know we wanted to... You know, she coincidentally grew up on the South Side of Chicago though we didn' ; t know each other, each other then. But we both loved Chicago but lived here all my life so-- (laughs) Emma Saito Lincoln: While you were raising your children, did you and your wife make any conscious effort to pass on your Japanese heritage to the children? Ken Oba: I' ; d say to the extent that we, we could, you know ' ; cause I' ; ll say since my Japanese heritage, I' ; ll say it was pretty limited, you know not speaking Japanese, you know, you know I' ; ll say not knowing a lot, a lot about the culture. But you know I, obviously I, you know, you know we, you know imparted to them that obviously they' ; re, they' ; re, they' ; re Japanese and you know they were ol--, when they were old enough, you know we explained about the camps and you know that my grand-- my, my parents had you know, had, had been in the camps. And I' ; ll say it was really important t-to them because they were both, you know in college, they were history majors. You know, kind of, and then my daughter being, you know she' ; s a principal at a charter school in San Jose. So I think from a education standpoint, you know she really, that' ; s kind of important to her. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you or your children taken any steps to try to reclaim some of that heritage that was lost between the generations? Ken Oba: I guess I' ; d have to say no, you know. ' ; Cause some of it is, you know my wife' ; s heritage is you know, Irish, Irish Catholic. Our kids went to a Catholic elementary school, then... You know, so-- So I guess what I' ; m saying is like you know my wife' ; s heritage is you know to me, just as important. And then my daughter, you know her husband coincidentally, he' ; s Irish, you know. So, I don' ; t know what that, what, what that means. And then our son, his wife is Cuban and I think probably German, primarily Cuban. And so, you know their heritage is, you know important too. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you ever had the opportunity to travel to Japan? Ken Oba: Yes. Took me, took me a long time. But finally, in 2013, my wife and I, we went to Japan, and it was kind of a group of us. My brother Wayne, who' ; s like three years younger, he went. But it was all arranged by my cousin Katie, who had grown up in Japan. You know, her mother was my dad' ; s sister. And, so she grew up in Japan. Then when she was going to college, she came and attended Northwestern University in, in Evanston. But she' ; s really like the family member that you know she lived everywhere, you know and she' ; s traveled everywhere. She' ; s gone to the Himalayas, she gone to Machu Picchu. And, but she had lived in Japan for a long time even though she had gone back and, and had lived in Tokyo. So she was used to arranging these like visits and showing people around. But, but anyway, at the time, you know she was living in, in the U.S. But then she arranged like a whole, you know, like three or four week you know, visit and we went all around and you know she had it all planned out. You know, we would, everything we were going to do every day, you know the subway we were going to take to here and the events, and-- But anyway, so we did eventually go to Fukuoka and see the, the family farm. And, so that was pretty, that, that was pretty interesting. So it' ; s kind of complicated in terms of-- The short version is my Uncle Masateru, he lives there. And his one, he has two daughters and one daughter lives in a house, you know also on the farm. The other daughter lives I think in the Fukuoka area. But what it was, was my grandfather took the family back to Japan. He remarried and had one daughter, then she married. But because in Japan she was going to be like the end of the Oba line, then Uncle Masateru, he took the Oba as, as his last name. But then she passed away. And then so he, he, he' ; s the one that, that lives at the, at the farm. You know, they don' ; t farm. I think they lease the, the farming, the fields or something like that. But he, he lives there in, in the house. Emma Saito Lincoln: What was, what was the experience like for you emotionally, going to Japan and experiencing it for the first time? Ken Oba: Well first, you know Japan was just you know just wonderful you know in terms of like the sights and sounds and... But you know especially going to you know Fukuoka to see where you know the you know, you know, what my dad' ; s family had, had grown up was, you know really interesting to see that' ; s where they had, had lived and you know made, made their lives and eventually decided to you know come to the U.S. That was really, you know that was really emotional you know, to, to, to see that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Were you mistaken for Japanese while you were there? Ken Oba: All the time. You know and so that' ; s why that, we' ; d go to the hotels and I' ; d be with my wife and then we' ; d wanna, you know, need directions or ask at the desk and then inevitably, you know, they would start speaking Japanese and I' ; d be embarrassed and say, say, " ; I don' ; t speak Japanese." ; You know, ' ; cause in a way I was advised, actually by the person that was cutting my hair who was Japanese, I said I was going to Japan and her name was Kimi. And so I said, " ; Oh, maybe I should learn some Japanese phrases." ; But she advised against that because they said if I start saying like a little bit in Japanese, well they' ; ll think, " ; Oh okay, then let' ; s keep..." ; And so I just say, you know " ; I don' ; t speak." ; And I' ; ll say, you know in the way that was true because you know kind of unrelated to our Japan trip, my wife and I went to Prague because our daughter was studying abroad there. And then I said, " ; Oh okay, I' ; ll be, I' ; ll be good." ; And I learned a few words in Czech and then so I started talking you know to some of the people in stores... And then--And then I had to say, " ; No, that' ; s all I know!" ; you know! (laughs) So anyway, that' ; s kind of a long answer for that. But obviously, I was mistaken for you know being you know, really Japanese you know all, all, all the time. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think we' ; ll switch gears a little bit and talk about your involvement here at JASC. And for several years now, you' ; ve been a volunteer here. And I' ; m curious to know, since it sounds like other than the blood drive, you weren' ; t particularly engaged with JASC or other JA organizations. So what motivated you to get involved, in retirement? Ken Oba: Well, after I retired you know I wanted to, looking for something to do and then for a couple years I volunteered at the Catholic high school that subsequently is closed, that was near our house. And actually, the principal of the Catholic grammar school where my kids went, she was working in that office. So, really it was, you know so I would work there and really it was, really it was pretty fun. It was like a block away. And so, then that was pretty--, but the school was closed you know due to low enrollment. So I kind of, I knew of the JASC and so then I just thought, " ; Well, that' ; d be a worthwhile and fun thing to do." ; So then I came by and filled out a form and you know that was probably in, you know probably six or seven years ago now. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what kinds of projects have you been involved in? Ken Oba: (laughs) Kind of all sorts of things. Initially, I would say, I, I kind of worked for the, the controller. But mainly, not doing accounting or anything but designing like forms you know to tally information for some of the, some of the, some of the different programs. And one of those was the chore housekeeping, which now has grown to be such a, a, a big thing, you know? But, so I was primarily, primarily doing that, designing like these, mainly like Excel spreadsheets to keep track of, you know, different, different things. And then, I don' ; t know, I was kind of getting tired of that. And then Karen Kanemoto was a Legacy Center director at the time and there were a couple archivists and they were scanning these, you know photo collections. And you know, so... you know I could see what they were doing. And so I said " ; Well, maybe I could do that." ; So then they trained me to scan all these photos from the different, different collections. And then over time, all the JASC employees that were part of that, you know, Karen, Karen left and then the archivists, they went on to bet-better things. So I was, in a way, in charge of that. As, as other volunteers would come, I would train them and you know continue scanning, scanning of the collections. Well, that' ; s kind of over with. But now I still work on these spreadsheets for the chore housekeeping and for the adult day service. Emma Saito Lincoln: What keeps you coming back to JASC? Ken Oba: Well really, I, I' ; d say it' ; s like the people. It' ; s you know the people, you know I' ; ve met like, you know so many nice people here, and really it' ; s a lot of fun and they have the events. You know it' ; s wonderful when they have, you know here in the warehouse, like the ADS has their parties and they have other, you know other events and really, it' ; s, you know their mission is really wonderful. But you know really, I' ; d say like, you know the people are really so, you know so, so, so nice. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what do you value most about JASC' ; s role in the Japanese American community? Ken Oba: I' ; d say like for honoring the Resettlers. But also like the... What am I trying to say? Just honoring like the, the Japane-- honoring and promoting like the Japanese culture. They have all the programs, like you know the language programs and, well they used to have ikebana and you know things you know things like that to kind of you know, preserve and perpetuate the Japanese culture. But you know I' ; ve seen it you know kind of shifted into, you know kind of-- Because they have to, like more modern issues of like social justice and you know I, I think that' ; s really, really wonderful, really. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think, let' ; s talk a little bit about what your family experienced during the war. And, and I know you don' ; t have a lot of details about that time period because your parents chose not to discuss it with you. Is there anything that looking back now, you wish you could ask your parents? Ken Oba: Well now, I w-- I would' ; ve been more interested in knowing about like their, the life in you know camps. You know like say you can read about it, and, and hear people, you know hear people talk about it. But it would be most compelling for me to hear my parents describe, well, they, they weren' ; t my parents at time, but hear them describe what their lives you know you know were like and... You know good, bad or indifferent. It' ; d be... ' ; Cause to me, I just picture it as being awfully hard and I, I' ; m just amazed they were able to... you know like a lot of you know resettlers from the camps really make, make a life for themselves, you know? It just seemed like it was, you know I don' ; t know how like my wife er-- my mom you know became a nurse and you know it just seems you know, pretty, pretty, pretty amazing to me. So I say I had it pretty easy. Just seemed like go to school, go to college, get a job. But, you know I, I' ; d like to ask ' ; em like how, you know kind of how life was in the camp and you know how it, how they felt about how they kind of felt about that. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you or your family members participated in any reunions or, or pilgrimages? I know you mentioned you and your wife stopped at Poston. But have you participated in any of the more organized gatherings? Ken Oba: No, not, not, not really. Because in a way I, I guess I, you know, maybe I misunderstand what they are at times. But I thought some of them were like for the survivors of the camps. Well, you know obviously that' ; s not, you know not the case anymore. But you know maybe there are, are some where it' ; s not just the survivors or, or something like that. But really, really I, I' ; ve been to the JASC when they' ; ve had talks about the camps and then this was a while ago, I think. It was actually Daniel Inouye, you know he spoke, spoke here about his experience in the camps, and, you know and stuff. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you stopped at Poston, you said there wasn' ; t much there... Ken Oba: No, it was, it was... We would' ; ve passed right by it unless we knew what we were looking for, that there was like a, like the main, not the structure but the thing of note, it' ; s like a sculpture. It' ; s like a gun barrel pointed, you know up. You know, but it' ; s just really a small, roadside thing. So unless you' ; re looking for that you know you, you might pass it because all the buildings, you know they' ; re... Well, the original buildings I think are almost all gone, that were out of, made out of wood. The ones that were of you know brick or something other than wood. But they' ; re in like terrible condition. They were all fenced around, you couldn' ; t get, you, you couldn' ; t, you, you couldn' ; t get close to them, but... Emma Saito Lincoln: How did that make you feel, when you arrived at that site and that' ; s what you found? Ken Oba: Well, I thought it was too bad because I know at some of the camps although I haven' ; t been there, like I think at Manzanar and there are a few others I think maybe they' ; ve... You know ' ; cause, ' ; cause I' ; ve been to the Japanese American National Museum and, and they have, I don' ; t know if they' ; re like recreations or of some of the, the camps. So, so I, I thought that at some of the camps, they have a little bit more preserved of the camp itself. But the most compelling thing at Poston was, you know all the camps probably have a story. But you know at Poston, it was like either the only or one of the few of those on Bureau of Indian Affairs Land. And what it was, was that land you know was on the Indian reservation, Colorado, Colorado River Indian tribes. But the land was pretty arid and you know, nothing would grow. So someone at at the BIA had the idea of well, locate the camp here on the reservation, use the labor from the, you know the internees to irrigate the land. And it' ; s now it, you know it, it' ; s just like you just see these green fields all over. But, so it was really, you know they made the land livable and you know good farming, you know farming, farming wise. And so then obviously, that' ; s been turned back over to the you know to the tribes and you know tribes and stuff. But it makes me sad that like, you know that the internees get you know kind of taken advantage of you know, you know kind of in multiple ways. You know they' ; re uprooted and then they' ; re like, not forced labor, but it was like, " ; Well, here' ; s what you, what you' ; re going to have do." ; Because it was a movie, it' ; s called " ; Passing Poston" ; . You know, I thought that was really pretty compelling. We saw that years ago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know if your parents, well I guess it would be your father, received redress payment? Ken Oba: H-he did. Emma Saito Lincoln: And an apology letter. Ken Oba: He did, but my mother didn' ; t ' ; cause she was deceased because you had to be surviving, but my dad, dad did. Emma Saito Lincoln: And at that time, were you very aware or did you understand what the redress movement was about? Ken Oba: I' ; d say yes. Yeah, I was. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you remember how your father reacted when he received his check and his letter? Ken Oba: I think he was happy obviously to you know get, get the money. I don' ; t know if you know the apology meant you know that, that much to him or, or anything like that. I think I do have that letter in you know in his, you know a few of his you know papers. Emma Saito Lincoln: I think maybe to wrap up here, I have a few questions sort of looking, looking forward into the future. And, what would you most like your children and your grandchildren and future generations to know about your own life but also about your family' ; s history? Ken Oba: Well, tell you the truth, I don' ; t think you know for, for my life, I just hope, hope they know that you know I did our, you know my wife and I did our best to, you know for our kids and you know our, our, our grandkids. But I' ; d say in terms of like a more dramatic you know struggle and effort, you know that was you know like my parents... But also like my, my, my wife' ; s parents. So that' ; s why I, I don' ; t you know kind of emphasize you know what my parents did. But it was the same thing with my wife' ; s parents you know they... You know long ago, they had come from Ireland you know and had to deal with, you know at the time, you know kind of you know discrimination in, in, in their own right. So it' ; s more like to my kids of, of recognizing that you know kind of in terms of social justice that you know people want to come to America and you know they, they deserve that right to make their lives here and you know you need to you know you need to kind of respect you know, respect that as citizens of the world I think. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what would you like to see happening in the Chicago Japanese American community today and into the future? Ken Oba: I think it' ; s kind of difficult ' ; cause they' ; re... I think the Japanese American community is you know kind of dwindling just ' ; cause you know like, you know... But I' ; d say t-to you know to honor, you know I' ; d say the people that came to Chicago and... But the Japanese culture, that' ; s why a lot of the things that JASC does I think are, are really, are really wonderful. Especially like we' ; re seeing here, like the Tampopo, you know program, I think that' ; s, that' ; s really wonderful. But also with the eye that that' ; s like how, you know what all people want that you know come here, whether they come from you know, Mexico or the Middle East and you know to really you know kind, kind of embrace that. Again, it' ; s like citizens of the world ' ; cause I think that' ; s you know, I think that' ; s what' ; s more important going forward. Emma Saito Lincoln: Would you say that your, your own relationship with the Japanese American community has, has changed over time? Ken Oba: I' ; ll say I understand it a bit more, especially you know being here at the JASC and you know attending a number of the events, and you know just seeing what the JASC does on a, on a daily basis. So I, it' ; s given me like a lot of, you know a lot of appreciation. And then one aspect of that is like, well, they haven' ; t been here for a while now, but like the Judo group that was here, you know just, just seeing you know that as part of you know the culture is, you know interesting. Emma Saito Lincoln: Since some of the work that you' ; ve done here as a volunteer was with the Legacy Center collections, I' ; d like to know why you think the Japanese American Legacy Center-- Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center matters? Ken Oba: Well I think the, you know I' ; m primarily familiar with the, the photo, you know the photo collections, but I think they really document you know an important period you know for those families. But also you know historically for Japanese in Chicago and you know what they, what they did growing up. And, you know I, I really think that' ; s important, and so that you know their, you know maybe members of their family or people that knew them can view that. But also you know people you know interested in, you know history or I want to say, I don' ; t know if it' ; s like social science, but you know they can kind of see well this is, you know how the people, how, how, how they kind of lived. Emma Saito Lincoln: And to close things out here, what do you love most about living in Chicago? Ken Oba: ' ; Cause it has all the good memories of you know me growing up, and raising my kids, meeting my wife. You know it' ; s, it' ; s just really, it' ; s just really, it' ; s just really home, you know I just really, you know ' ; cause it' ; s the only place I' ; ve known as, as home. I love going to the West Coast, but you know really, really love coming back to Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Well, I think that' ; s, that' ; s it for my questions. Thank you very much. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ObaKen20210602.xml ObaKen20210602.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
Sort Priority
6000
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ObaKen20210602.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oba, Ken (6/2/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Oba, a Chicago-born sansei, shares memories of growing up on the South Side in the Hyde Park and Avalon Park neighborhoods. His parents, born in Los Angeles, CA and Honolulu, HI, were both incarcerated at Poston during WWII before resettling in Chicago, but rarely spoke of their experiences. Ken discusses the ways in which his Japanese American identity did and did not impact his life, shares his thoughts on the importance of all of the ethnic identities that his multiracial children and grandchildren possess, and describes his motivations for volunteering at a variety of organizations post-retirement. Of particular note are Ken's descriptions of his experiences visiting Poston and visiting Japan as an adult.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-06-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Oral History Project
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/46efc38164e26cd014fd7feeaf833ae4.png
3926a77228c9abe0b49ce0634e55797c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Maeda, Edith
Interview Keyword
Nisei
El Centro, CA
Poston
Dust
Goldblatt Department Store
West Side
McKinley High School
University of Illinois
National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH)
Woodley House
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/17/2018 Maeda, Edith (8/17/2018) 1:13:05 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei El Centro, CA Poston Dust Goldblatt Department Store West Side McKinley High School University of Illinois National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) Woodley House Maeda, Edith Takada, Anna video 1:|10(4)|22(15)|42(16)|57(5)|68(2)|81(11)|90(7)|108(13)|124(11)|135(3)|152(14)|160(12)|174(13)|190(9)|205(4)|213(5)|233(4)|244(13)|252(4)|269(15)|281(10)|296(1)|306(2)|316(11)|327(5)|333(5)|353(3)|370(8)|382(11)|399(3)|408(6)|420(8)|433(3)|442(8)|458(2)|473(10)|496(14)|525(7)|535(11)|553(7)|571(15)|587(6)|610(5)|631(10)|647(3)|659(11)|676(3)|697(3)|716(10)|743(5)|754(4)|771(14)|799(8)|812(7)|827(11)|845(11)|862(4)|872(12)|888(6)|920(1)|930(11)|946(13)|967(9)|981(13)|993(2)|1006(4)|1017(10)|1033(4)|1046(1)|1057(4)|1068(8)|1084(12) 0 https://vimeo.com/389262781/ac2c3e7522 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/389262781?h=ac2c3e7522" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Edith Maeda, a nisei, was born in El Centro, CA in 1927. In this interview, she shares memories of her life before WWII and her family's experiences as early arrivals at the WRA incarceration site at Poston, AZ. She recalls the pervasive dust in the desert and lack of a school facility on-site. Following their incarceration, Edith's family resettled in Chicago, initially on the West Side where she finished high school. After college, Edith's career took her to Washington, DC, where she worked at the National Institute of Mental Health and the Woodley House. Edith returned to the Chicago area with her husband and son after retirement in order to be closer to family, and stresses the importance of family at the end of the interview. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Edie Maeda, as part of the Japanese-American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on August 17th, 2018 at 11:04 AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Edie Maeda is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you state your full name? Edith Maeda: Edith Michiko Maeda. Anna Takada: And, where and when were you born? Edith Maeda: I was born in El Centro, E-L, and then separate name C-E-N-T-R-O, California on 12/28/27. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit about El Centro, California? What that was like growing up? Edith Maeda: Well, it' ; s a very small town, I think it' ; s probably about 10,000 people, but in California, not near the big city or anything. It was... And I would say it was about, a town with about 10-to-15,000 people, not, not many. Anna Takada: And, how about your parents, what, what did they do for a living? Edith Maeda: My parents, my mother did not-- she was at home caring for kids and so on. And my father was a shoe, owned a shoe repair shop, and he had, had always done that, even when he went to, when we moved to Chicago. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And, can you tell me about where, where your parents were from originally? Edith Maeda: Well, they were from Japan, I had visited, visited the little city, but I can' ; t really remember what it was. Myles Glasgow: Can I add... Edith Maeda: It was Miyazaki, was the, not the city, but the... What would you call it? Myles Glasgow: Region, prefecture. Edith Maeda: Yeah. Anna Takada: And do you know anything about when or why they came to the U.S.? Edith Maeda: I never asked why they came, I just figured, you know we always just operated in the present, not in the past, so... Anna Takada: So as far as growing up, were you speaking Japanese with your parents then? Edith Maeda: I was on the younger side, I had two older sisters who had gone to Japanese school, in other words, they learned the language. So, I did not know it, I couldn' ; t write it or speak it as well as they did, but I could understand you know, phrases and stuff, but, my broth-- Anna Takada: So, so you did not go to Japanese school? Edith Maeda: No, no. During the war and after the war, I, I guess they just didn' ; t have it. You know, and the Japanese were put into camps, either in somewhere, I don' ; t know where they were in California, but we were put into a camp in Arizona. So it was really in the desert. Anna Takada: Before getting into, into wartime, I' ; d love to hear a little bit more about kind of what it was like for you growing up in El Centro. So you said you-- you mentioned you had, had some siblings. Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah. I had older sisters, four, and two of the older ones I hardly knew, because they were in college all the time when my brother and I were growing up. And I had one older brother, but I never knew him very well, ' ; cause he was killed while he was in college at, in San Diego, which is in California. So he died before the war, but I hardly knew him, because he was always away. And, I had my younger brother and I grew up together. Anna Takada: So as a kid, I, I imagine you were probably going to school? Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: Mhmm. What was that, what was school like for you in El Centro, a small town? Edith Maeda: Well, we were in a small town of only 10,000 people, so you would grow up with kids you went to school with from kindergarten on up. So, my best friend was the superintendent' ; s daughter, she was my best friend, and so we sort of grew up together. But we were a Japanese family that lived in the little town, but there were many other Japanese that lived outside and they were usually farmers, or... I had an uncle who had asparagus, he introduced asparagus I think to, to the valley, so he was sort of a gentleman farmer and had four or five girls, all girls, no boys. (laughs) I know he always wanted someone, but a boy particularly, because he was a rancher, so... Anna Takada: Do you remember his name? Edith Maeda: Sonoda. Anna Takada: And, so it sounds like there were other Japanese American families. Edith Maeda: Yes, but most of the Japanese lived as farmers out in the country, but we lived in the city, so I never met any of them except my cousins, who, who we were always close with them. There were four girls, but they were all always in college, so I didn' ; t know them until afterwards, and after we got into camp my father sort of took care of them, because their father had died, and so-- Myles Glasgow: He had been arrested and sent... Edith Maeda: What? Myles Glasgow: Wasn' ; t he arrested and put into a camp in Texas? Edith Maeda: Yeah, that Mr. Sonoda was, for a while, but, and then he died I think in, in the camp or... I mean he was taken on Pearl Harbor Day, ' ; cause he was sort of a gentleman farmer that had a lot of contacts with people and land and stuff. Anna Takada: And so, right, because the, the FBI, they were taking a lot of... Especially Issei men. Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah. They took people like him, I don' ; t know why, but maybe because you know he, he was influential in the agricultural area. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Well connected, and-- Myles Glasgow: His daughter, one of his daughters, Mary, had worked with the royal family in Japan. Edith Maeda: He had only four daughters, he had four daughters, he wanted a son to carry on, but had four daughters and sent them all to college, so... Anna Takada: And so do you know, you said that your father was kind of taking care of your cousins, was that... Edith Maeda: Well, sort of, because the father of my cousins was taken early on Pearl Harbor Day or prior to, whatever, but he was sort of influential in the agricultural area, so he was taken and I think, I think he may have died in, while he was in camp. I don' ; t remember ever seeing him after that. I think he died. Anna Takada: And, be-before the war started, had you ever... Well, first of all, were you involved in any other activities outside of school as a kid? Edith Maeda: Oh well, our family always did a lot of volunteer work, so I did... Maybe that was more in Chicago though, when we moved. Anna Takada: Did you go to any, were you religious at all? Were you raised religious? Edith Maeda: Oh, the Japanese always had a church I think in every community they moved to, so we belonged to a, a Christian church. Anna Takada: In El Centro? Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: And so would that mean going to Sunday school? Edith Maeda: Going to Sunday school, and knowing a lot of families, and our cousins who were there, the father was, had introduced asparagus in the community, but he was a gentleman farmer, but he had four girls, so no one to carry on. But he sent them all to college, and they were older. I had two older sisters, I had four older sisters actually, but two were always away in college, so I didn' ; t know them as well as the two that were closer. And then I had an older brother who was killed at college. While he was... He wanted a motorcycle, and unfortunately he got killed that way. A, a woman who was learning to drive, that was sad. And then I had a little brother, my brother and I were the younger ones, mhmm. Anna Takada: And before the war, had you experienced any type of discrimination as a, as a child for being Japanese? Edith Maeda: No, we lived in a small town and my best friend and a neighbor was the superintendent' ; s daughter. He was superintendent of the school, so I, we were very close. We sort of grew up together, so... Anna Takada: Does that mean... Edith Maeda: The, the Japanese were usually-- they were farmers mostly, so I never knew the children. We had cousins who were four older girls, and they were always in college it seemed. And he, their father had introduced asparagus to the valley, so he was always very busy, so I didn' ; t-- Anna Takada: Do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed? Maybe where you were, how you found out? Edith Maeda: Well, I remember there was a lot of discussion in the family and all that, you know, and the fact that we were put into camps because of, after that, mhmm. Anna Takada: And so, how old were you about at that time when the war broke out? Edith Maeda: Well, let' ; s see, when did the war break out? I was in, I did, let' ; s see, I went to high school and so I was still in lower school. I don' ; t, I went to junior high in Chicago, so I went to... Anna Takada: So you must have been a teenager when the war broke out, if you were born in ' ; 27. Edith Maeda: 12/28/27. I' ; m trying to think. Anna Takada: You would have been about 15 I think? Edith Maeda: Mhmm, was I in, I was in high school then, I would have been in high school, ' ; cause I went to high school about 12. Uh-huh. Anna Takada: And so, so when, do you remember kind of what, what that time was like when the war broke out? I know you said your family went to camp, but how about... Edith Maeda: Only because when the war broke out, Japanese, being Japanese, you know you, you really felt it, and especially because we were put into a, a camp in the Arizona desert. And my father volunteered and my eldest sister volunteered, she was in college. I had two sisters who had been in college. So anyway, we went in and it was the complete desert. We were the first family in, the first... In fact, the only family in, because all the other volunteers came from Los Angeles and they were, they went there because they needed people to help set up the school system and so on, and so all those people volunteered. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So that' ; s, that' ; s something that I think a lot of people don' ; t know about that, that when... Edith Maeda: The camp? Encampment? Anna Takada: Not, not only the camps, but the fact that the first move of the government was to offer people to volunteer to evacuate, so to leave their homes and to go into camps. Edith Maeda: Not to volunteer, you were ordered to. You were ordered out of California. Anna Takada: Right, but the, the first, the first order that went out... Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah. Anna Takada: Because you said you were the first family. Edith Maeda: People, when they were developing these camps out in the desert, they asked for volunteers. So busloads of young people, educated, educators and people like that volunteered and came from California, but my father volunteered and my s-- I had an older, oldest sister who was in college, volunteered to be a teacher and so on. So volunteers went in and my brother and I were kids, and we were the only kids around, so when they were training the educated Japanese to be teachers and so on, they bused us to a Indian school and we were the subjects, my brother and I became the subjects, because there were no other kids. We were the only kids in the whole volunteer area. The other groups, the families had not come in. They came in much later. Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So can you tell me about, well, first of all, do you, do you remember what you were thinking or feeling at the time that your family kind of left your home in El Centro? Edith Maeda: Well, it, it was, yeah the feeling was, when you' ; re smaller, leaving your neighbors and your friends, and particularly your, the neighbors who you grew up with. So that was probably had more impact on me and my brother. My older sisters, some had finished college, Marvel, Betsy, yeah, so it was... In fact, when we got to camp, because my family volunteered, and we were the only kids, on a couple of blocks that were all volunteers, they were mostly people who could be teachers or set up the kiosk or whatever it was like I said. So just me and my brother were the only kids in, until they finally... And we went to an Indian school until they opened schools in the camp. Anna Takada: And do you know what, at what time it was that your family left? I know, so the, what time it would have been that your family went to camp, was it still 19-- Edith Maeda: Well we were the first family in camp, it was the desert and so on. Anna Takada: Do you remember what time of year it was, or... Edith Maeda: But what, what time of the... Well, it was in the desert, so all I remember was dust, dust. Anna Takada: For sure. Edith Maeda: And the barracks were a family in each unit, so there were four bar-- compartments, and so our family at that time, I had two sisters who were really, my two older sisters were married, so I had two sisters older than I, myself and my little brother. My older brother had been in college before the war, he was killed just before we went into camp. He was in college and he was killed in an accident, automobile accident. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Your, your cousins, were they in the same camp as you? Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm. And my father sort of took care of them, because their father, who, through his eldest daughter, owned a lot of land and so on, and he introduced asparagus to the valley. He was, he was not a farmer who farmed, he, he sort of introduced asparagus to the valley, and he had four girls. Anna Takada: And so they, they came to join you and your family. Edith Maeda: They, we... They were, we were always together, we were in the same block. And he had been taken by the government because of his position. Anna Takada: Was his wife or, or the girls' ; mother, were they, was she also with you all in camp? Edith Maeda: Yes, my father took care of her and the four girls, and then our family. Anna Takada: And so if you remember, did they leave early with you all? Like, what, what were you also alone? Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah. So they, you had to have positions or someone, something if you were of that age, so they are... I think, I remember the eldest, oldest sister, there were four girls, became an instructor in a college in Chicago. So you had to, the older ones like my father and so on, had to have jobs, you couldn' ; t leave without one early, I mean you couldn' ; t leave early, and you couldn' ; t go back to California, you had to come east. Anna Takada: Do you know how long you were in camp with your family? About how long? Edith Maeda: As long as, you couldn' ; t leave until you had a job, and I think it was within the year, first year. We, my brother and I were kids and they didn' ; t have any schools or anything yet, because we were in a volunteer block, and they were all women and men who had volunteered to go in early, who became school teachers and kiosk openers and so on. So my brother and I were always, we were bused to a Indian school. Anna Takada: Do you remember maybe your first impressions of going into that camp as a 15 year old? Edith Maeda: It was dusty, it was a desert, and the barracks were a family in each section, the sec-- the barrack was divided into four. So my father and mother and my brother, little brother and I, and then I had two sisters just a little bit older than I, we were all in one unit, which was about this size, because a barrack was divided into four. So a family in each. Anna Takada: Do you remember having conversations with your family about the situation or about what was happening? Edith Maeda: Well, we were all there exposed to the same. I mean we had to, it was a desert, it was dust, we, we were always ordering things from the catalog, because the dust would come up, so we ordered linoleum and stuff, so everybody was sort of busy trying to make it as homey, homey as possible. You had to walk to a dining hall for breakfast, lunch and supper, so, and some of us liked to sleep later, so you know we, we just all cooperated. Because a family of my mother, father, my little brother, myself, and two sisters close to me, older, were all in one room that was maybe just a size bigger than this room. And so, and when you came, you had wooden bunks against every wall in the cabins that were built, they were just constructed, and the floorboards, they were in the desert so the floorboards, you still got a lot of dust. So my mother was ordering linoleum for the floorboards. And oh, they did put tar paper on the outside, so the dust didn' ; t come in that way. But it was in the middle of the Arizona desert. Anna Takada: And so you and your younger brother, you were going, you were being bused out to go to a school outside... Edith Maeda: Well, because my family volunteered, there were no kids in the camp, in the volunteer section, they hadn' ; t come, they hadn' ; t been bused in yet from Los Angeles. Anna Takada: So you were, there weren' ; t even schools ready. Edith Maeda: So we were bused, we went to a, we were sort of driven to a Indian school. Anna Takada: And can you tell me about what that was like? You were must have, you were probably the only Japanese. Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah. We were, but we were, it was just like any other school. Anna Takada: Mhmm. How, how big was that school, if you remember? Edith Maeda: It was a... ordinary sized school. Uh-huh. Anna Takada: And so was it on a, a reservation? Edith Maeda: No, they had to... We were in a camp, which was dust, a dust bowl, and they were one family in a unit, one unit, I mean, cabin or whatever you call it, had four rooms and one family in each room. Anna Takada: Mhmm, And I, I was just curious to learn more about the school that you were going to. Edith Maeda: The Indian school? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. So-- Edith Maeda: Well, we didn' ; t actually go with, to a Indian group, they used the Indian school for volunteers, we were in a volunteer block, so all of the volunteer teachers, Japanese-Americans and different people who could help settle the encampment. So my little brother and I were bused with these volunteers, who were trained teachers already, and we went to an Indian school. It was, we didn' ; t have class with the Indian kids. Anna Takada: I see, you were just using the building. Edith Maeda: I don' ; t know if the time was different or not, well we certainly went at summertime, but we never went with other kids. Anna Takada: Mhmm. The, so I know there were two camps in Arizona, do you remember which camp? Edith Maeda: There were three. I mean there were three, Poston One, Poston Two and Poston Three. There were three in this desert in Arizona, but there were many other camps in other areas I' ; m sure. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So this was, do you remember which camp in Poston? Edith Maeda: Oh, we were in camp one, because my father volunteered and I had two sisters who volunteered. Anna Takada: And, how about your parents, do you know what they were doing in camp, if they were doing anything, work, or... Edith Maeda: Well, I think my father volunteered, but I don' ; t know what he did, but my sisters, my eldest sister was a, had her master' ; s I think, so she was, helped set up the school system, and my-- Myles Glasgow: Marvel you mean? Edith Maeda: Yeah, and Betsy, who was married, she and her husband helped set up the kiosks, because he was a businessman. And I had one sister who had been in nursing school, so they had to set up the place for illness. That was Grace. Alice, I think Alice worked with like the director of the, the three camps. And my brother and I were guinea pigs and we were sent off with the, the Japanese Americans who were teachers or educated to be a, to be a teacher, and we were bused off to a Indian school and we were the only kids, so we were taught by... We were just volunteering, because they needed, they were not trained teachers. uh-huh. Anna Takada: Do you remember what that was like being the only kids in... Edith Maeda: Well, I know we were the only kids, my brother and I were-- it was just, it was just full of mostly women volunteers. I don' ; t know where the men volunteers were. There were some married couples, but there were mostly women. That was interesting, ' ; cause they came in busloads from Los Angeles. Anna Takada: Did you have any, any reactions to that, to being the only kid? Was that, was that kind of strange to be, you know just you and your brother... Edith Maeda: I guess it was more strange to be away from your home and your friends and so on. So you didn' ; t, you know, we just knew we were there, we had no way to get out. Unless you, well, they didn' ; t want people out yet, but by the end of the year, they were letting people out. So we left just before the, we didn' ; t stay a year, but you could get out if you could confirm that you had a job. And that' ; s how we got to Chicago. Anna Takada: So can you tell me more about, about that process of-- You mentioned that your, your father had to find another job in Chicago, so, so what happened sort of after camp and as your family was leaving camp? Edith Maeda: Well, you had to have a job, but I don' ; t know if they let you out. I think we had to stay a year. It seems to me, although... We were bused, my brother and I were bused to a Indian school for a while, so I don' ; t, I don' ; t remember, I don' ; t know if it was a complete year. And then, but you couldn' ; t leave unless you had a job, and actually we were the only kids because most of the volunteers were people who you know, could help settle the camp. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so-- Edith Maeda: So we were the only kids. Anna Takada: How did you get to Chicago? Edith Maeda: Well, we had a friend who drove us into camp and our car, we had a, a big Buick, and then I think he came, gave us, brought the car and we were able to drive out you know when you' ; re leaving. I think that' ; s after a year. Anna Takada: And so-- Edith Maeda: And we drove to Chicago. Anna Takada: When your family first came to Chicago, do you remember who all came? Was it everybody? You, your brother, your... Edith Maeda: My two older sisters were married and they came, and our family came. And, I' ; m-- we had a, a friend who kept our car and, so I don' ; t know how he got back home. Myles Glasgow: That was the sheriff. Edith Maeda: Yeah. I don' ; t know how he-- Well, he might have had somebody else come with him with another car, because they had our car. Anna Takada: And this was a friend, non-Japanese, so he was not in camp? Edith Maeda: Oh, no. They were not Japanese, they would have had to be in camp. Anna Takada: And so when you first came to Chicago, where did you stay? Edith Maeda: You had to have a place to stay, I don' ; t know who found it, but I know it was, it was an apartment with three bedrooms in the West side. And, somebody must have found it for us. Anna Takada: It was on the West side you said? Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm. Maybe, maybe... Maybe I had a cousin, I had four cousins who may have come early. I think they came out to college, but I think they found us an apartment it was, on the West side. Anna Takada: And um... Myles Glasgow: These were the Sonodas. Edith Maeda: Huh? Myles Glasgow: These were the Sonodas. Edith Maeda: The Sonodas are the ones that-- Myles Glasgow: Mary. Edith Maeda: Mary, Margaret [Marguerite], Pearl and Louise, uh-huh, four girls. Myles Glasgow: Mary ended up being the assistant to the president of Roosevelt College. Edith Maeda: Roosevelt College, yeah. Was it because Roosevelt College was just opening? Myles Glasgow: I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: You said it was Mary, Margaret ... Edith Maeda: Pearl and Louise that were our cousins, their father was a rancher, or a farmer I guess you' ; d call him, because he introduced asparagus. And he always wanted a son, he had four girls, so he had to send them off to college, but they-- Anna Takada: And their last name, it' ; s-- Edith Maeda: Sonoda. Myles Glasgow: S-O-N-O-D-A Edith Maeda: S-O-N-O, Sonoda, D-A. Anna Takada: D-A, okay. Edith Maeda: S-O-N-O-D-A. Anna Takada: And, while we' ; re doing names, can you tell me the names of your parents and your siblings? Edith Maeda: My parents were Junichi and ... What was my mother' ; s name? We never called her I... I forgot what her first name was. Junichi and-- anyway. Mr. and Mrs. Junichi Maeda. Anna Takada: And how about your siblings? Edith Maeda: I had Mar-Marvel was my eldest sister who had finished college I think by then, ' ; cause she went to the University of California. I think she had finished college, she was the oldest, they named her Marvel, M-A-R-V-E-L, because she was first. And Betsy and Alice and Grace, four sisters, and then myself, Edith. And I held-- I had an older brother who I did not know, his name was Jack and he was killed when he was in college. But my brother and I were too young to really know him, because he was always away. Anna Takada: What was your younger brother' ; s name? Edith Maeda: Robert. Myles Glasgow: So he must have been about six years old when he was in the camp. Edith Maeda: Yeah. Myles Glasgow: And his daughter is Kimi, and she put this play together about the impression that the sculptor Isamu Noguchi had on Robert, and she' ; s performed that play and it' ; s on the web. She was trained in Williams College. She' ; s now living in Japan, her mother was born in Japan. Edith Maeda: Is she? She' ; s still there? Anna Takada: And so when you came to Chicago, and you settled on the West side, you must have still been of high school age? Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: Did you enroll in a high school in Chicago? Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah. You had to enroll. Anna Takada: Do you remember which high school that was? Edith Maeda: It was called McKinley. Anna Takada: Do you remember your... some of your first impressions of Chicago when you came, because that was probably the first time that you had come? Edith Maeda: Well, I didn' ; t concentrate so much on that, but I mean it' ; s a big city when you come from a little town of El Centro, which is about 20,000 people, but you go to school or your neighbors are you know close so... But Chicago was just a big city, and... Anna Takada: And, what was, what was McKinley like as a school? Edith Maeda: That was the high school, let' ; s see did I go to junior high school? I, I actually lived near and I became friendly with a, a girl that lived not too far from us, and she happened to be the superintendent' ; s daughter, the superintendent of the schools. So she and I were very, I mean it was very helpful because she had a lot of people, contacts, she knew some of the teachers and so on. So, so it was easy for me, because of her. Anna Takada: So this was in Chicago. Edith Maeda: Yeah, mhmm. Myles Glasgow: No, that was in El Centro. Edith Maeda: Oh, no. This is when we came to Chicago. I was-- Myles Glasgow: When you came to Chicago was one of your friends the daughter of the superintendent? Edith Maeda: Yeah, Esther Weekly. Myles Glasgow: Weekly is from El Centro. Edith Maeda: Oh, I have her in Chicago. Why do I have her in Chicago? You' ; re probably right. Was I in high school? Myles Glasgow: I don' ; t know. Was Walt Disney connected to any of the schools? Edith Maeda: No, but I went to elementary school with her. We just sort of grew up together, so I, she was in El Centro. Yeah. Anna Takada: And then so Chicago then, were there, on the West side, do you remember other Japanese families? Maybe people who had also come from camp? Edith Maeda: There weren' ; t any... We had, my parents volunteered and then volunteered to leave too, early, so I don' ; t remember. Anna Takada: So you were, you were probably one of the few, if not the only Japanese student at McKinley. Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: What were some of the, the demographics of that area at that time? Edith Maeda: Where, in Chicago? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm-- Edith Maeda: Oh. Anna Takada: On the West side where you were and at McKinley. Edith Maeda: It was, they were mostly Caucasian, and there were very few Blacks there, because Chicago is sort of isolated. I think it' ; s, you know most of the African-Americans live on the South side I think, and we lived on the West side. Anna Takada: And do you, do you remember being aware of maybe your, your Japanese-American identity, as a-- Edith Maeda: Oh, always, always. Yeah. Myles Glasgow: Mhmm. Anna Takada: Can you tell me more about that? Edith Maeda: Well, where we grew up, it was very integrated. I mean, there were no Japanese living in the little town, they were mostly farmers and lived in the country. So we were used to being always in school and around neighbors who were non-Japanese. So my brother and I hardly knew any Japane--, we didn' ; t know any Japanese. Except, my parents did attend a Japanese church. But still, there weren' ; t many kids and we didn' ; t have a Sunday school that I know of. Anna Takada: And how about in Chicago, did you do anything outside of school, any other activities, or... Edith Maeda: Well, I had developed friendships and we did, did something. I was, somehow or another I got acquainted with the superintendent' ; s daughter, not knowing she was that or anything, but she was sort of a quiet... and I don' ; t know why people didn' ; t mingle with her, but we sort of got close. In fact, we got very close, we sort of grew up together. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And in Chicago, did your family, did you find any church or did you go to church in Chicago that you recall? Edith Maeda: My parents, when there, there became a Japanese community, they, they started a, a Japanese church. I think they rented or something. But my brother and I did not get involved, ' ; cause they didn' ; t really have anything like a Sunday school for... yet. I think it was more of a church. Anna Takada: Do you remember what that church was called or maybe the people that were involved? Edith Maeda: Well I, I think, I think they rented you know, the use of it, I don' ; t know what the name of it was. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Was that on the West side or somewhere else? Edith Maeda: I gu-- Yeah, it would have be on the West side. Anna Takada: Did your family move anywhere after first staying on the West side? Edith Maeda: I don' ; t know. I think that we bought the house, but it was a two-story house, so... I think we stayed there, and then my brother and I went to college out, out of the city, so... Anna Takada: Where did you go to college? Edith Maeda: University of Illinois. Where did Robert go? Bra-Brandeis? Myles Glasgow: He went to Michigan, and then he went to Harvard. Edith Maeda: Oh, who went to Brandeis? Myles Glasgow: Robert taught at Brandeis. Edith Maeda: Oh, he taught at Brandeis, oh. Anna Takada: And was that something that was kind of expected for your family, ' ; cause I know your, your older siblings went to college? Edith Maeda: Yeah, yeah. All my older, we all went to, to college, mhmm. Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember what year you graduated from high school? Edith Maeda: What year I graduated? Let' ; s see, from McKinley High School, gee, I don' ; t know. I can' ; t really... I just, I didn' ; t even keep a diary. Myles Glasgow: Well you might have a yearbook. Edith Maeda: Huh? Myles Glasgow: You might have a yearbook. Edith Maeda: Could. Oh, yeah. I think there is one, but... Anna Takada: So when you were, before we started recording you had mentioned a, a house on Magnolia, was that before you left for college that you, you moved to Magnolia Street? Edith Maeda: Yeah. Yeah, we lived on Magnolia, uh-huh. Anna Takada: And, but that, that wouldn' ; t be the west side, I don' ; t think. Edith Maeda: Magnolia? Is, is it near North S-- Myles Glasgow: Oh, she' ; s talking about the school down near the, you know university. She, she' ; s talking about-- Edith Maeda: University of Illinois? Myles Glasgow: --the house that you and I went down to visit on Clifton. Edith Maeda: Yeah, we lived on Clifton Street. Well wasn' ; t that the West side? Myles Glasgow: Clifton might be the West side. Yeah. Edith Maeda: Yeah. Myles Glasgow: I' ; m not from Chicago. Anna Takada: When you were still in high school, well earlier you mentioned that when you were first here, there wasn' ; t much of a Japanese-American community, but it sounds like over time people were coming? Edith Maeda: I guess so, uh-huh Anna Takada: Do you remember that or do you remember experiencing that shift? Edith Maeda: Well, we never, in our hometown of El Centro, we were, there were never Japanese who lived in the city. And we, we lived in the city. Mostly they were living in the country, because they were farmers. So when we came here, there were less, I mean we had less contact. So my brother and I were basically, I don' ; t think he had much contact with Japanese children either. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, what about, do you remember any other maybe Japanese-owned businesses or grocery stores, or... Edith Maeda: In El Centro or in Chicago? Anna Takada: In Chicago. Edith Maeda: Hmm... Anna Takada: Or any other families? Edith Maeda: I' ; m trying to think of... Well we had cousins and my father sort of looked after them, there were four girls, they were all college educated, but their mother, her husband had died early. So he sort of, you know, he always kept in touch with them, they always called him. Anna Takada: You said that there was a two-story building on the West side that your family shared? Edith Maeda: Well, when we first came, you just had to get something quickly, and so we lived on the West side and there was an empty storefront, but upstairs there was a three-bedroom apartment. And it was empty, so that' ; s how we got here, ' ; cause you had to have a place to stay. And then after that, my father found a house out... Where was it? Myles Glasgow: I think it was on Clifton. Edith Maeda: Clifton Avenue, is, that was in the suburbs, right? Myles Glasgow: No, Clifton is down near one of the main streets. Edith Maeda: Clifton, it was in the city? I' ; m trying to think of what school. Myles Glasgow: Yeah, and the first house that you' ; re talking about is... Edith Maeda: There was an apartment we lived in. Myles Glasgow: Yeah, yeah. Edith Maeda: On Clifton, what was it? 2241 North Clifton. Myles Glasgow: Clifton was a really nice house. Edith Maeda: 2241, I remember the address. Myles Glasgow: Right, walk, you know, stairs coming up from the sidewalk. Anna Takada: And what did your father find as work in Chicago? Edith Maeda: He worked at the Goldblatt. You had to have a job I think before you came out, so at the Goldblatt department store, they had a, a shoe repair section I guess. But you had to have a job in order to come out, so that' ; s how we came out early. Anna Takada: And, your mother, did she find work? Edith Maeda: No, she, she was always... because, she had a lot of kids! (laughs) Anna Takada: Then so you mentioned you went to University of Illinois, after graduating from college, where did you go or what did you do? Edith Maeda: Well, I majored in occupational therapy, so I always had a job, and I always liked to work with kids. So I worked at the research hospital, what was it called? What is the research hospital? But anyway, I worked with the... Myles Glasgow: NIH? Edith Maeda: NIH. I worked for NIMH, National Institute of Mental Health. Myles Glasgow: That was in Bethesda. Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm. And they had a wonderful pediatric, pediatrician, and he was wonderful. So he was opening up a ward for disturbed kids, they were all boys, and he was doing research, so he, I' ; m an occupational therapist, so he, he wanted that definitely in a school teacher. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And, was that, that position, was that in Chicago? Or, where-- Edith Maeda: It' ; s in Chicago, yeah. Research, at the Illinois Institute. Was it the Illinois Institute of Psychology? Myles Glasgow: The name of the psychologist was Doctor... Edith Maeda: Oh, yeah... Gee. Anna Takada: And so, so you moved back to Chicago after college to work? Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm. Myles Glasgow: No, you stayed in, you stayed in Bethesda, and your, your teacher from the University of Illinois connected you to your... Joan Doniger. She too was a graduate of occupational therapy from-- Edith Maeda: The university. Myles Glasgow: The University of Illinois. So there, they had this occupational therapy professor in common, and Joan Doniger and Edie hooked up in Bethesda, Maryland, and Joan said to Edie at some point, " ; I want to start a halfway house for the mentally ill." ; And, Redl was the name of the psychologist you were working under in-- Edith Maeda: Fritz, Fritz Redl. Myles Glasgow: Fritz Redl, who was an outstanding psychologist. So anyway, Edie and Joan Doniger hooked up and used their occupational therapy training to start a halfway house for the mentally ill, applying occupational therapy principles to how they would run the halfway house. And so Edie worked there for 40 years after she came back from Norway or someplace where-- Edith Maeda: Norway. Myles Glasgow: Where she was working with... Edith Maeda: Disturbed kids, yeah. Myles Glasgow: Disturbed kids, and she said to Joan, " ; I' ; m going away to work there." ; And Joan said, " ; Well, when you come back, well I' ; ll have started the halfway house." ; And Joan' ; s father was well-endowed from inventing the X-Acto knife, and so the family money helped start the halfway house, which was then used. It followed, the, I think the Menninger' ; s Clinic also started a halfway house late-- years later on, but they used the halfway house called Woodley House, because it' ; s at Woodley Road in Washington DC, so that' ; s where Edie, Edie worked for 40 years. And Joan died with a car accident in New York when she was hailing a cab, but she adopted a girl and helped bring Edie' ; s life into that adoption by letting Edie be the godmother of that daughter, who is now in California, et cetera, et cetera. So Joan Doniger obviously played a very big part in Edie' ; s life post... Probably when you started that it was somewhere around 1950. Edith Maeda: Probably. Anna Takada: So... Myles Glasgow: So she left in 2000. Edith Maeda: Yeah her, her father was so nice too. How was she killed, in an accident? Myles Glasgow: Yeah, she was hailing a cab outside of her sister' ; s home and the cab stopped and then another cab came too fast and wiped out Joan, who was by then standing in the street trying to get into the car that had stopped. So... so we got through that. Edith Maeda: So I carried on, but that was so sad. Anna Takada: And so where, I' ; m sorry exactly were you living at that time? Myles Glasgow: We were living in Washington DC. Anna Takada: In DC. Myles Glasgow: On Lanier Place. Anna Takada: So you spent a bit of time there, it sounds like. Myles Glasgow: Oh, yeah. Edith Maeda: Mhmm. Anna Takada: In DC. And so when, when did you come back to Chicago or to the Chicagoland area? Myles Glasgow: In 2000. Edith Maeda: When was it? Myles Glasgow: 2000. Edith Maeda: 2000? Myles Glasgow: Edie was retiring after 40 years at Woodley House, and Joan had died, and our s-- we had adopted a boy in ' ; 89 from Guatemala, and Joan had adopted Kiyo and Teresa before that, so Edie had formed the... Edith Maeda: Adoptees club. Myles Glasgow: The adoptees club of these four or five adopted girls, so that was, adoption was part of our mode of living. And she, she was like a den mother, and she had a chance to adapt a, a boy herself, and that was a total surprise. But anyway, we moved here and when Jose was moving from middle school to high school, or from grade school to middle school, we figured that was a good time. She wanted to be closer to her sisters here, so she had two sisters living in Chicago on Magnolia Street a block apart, and, with their, with their children. So she wanted to be close to the family, and part of it was to put Jose close to that family too, those families. Anna Takada: So Jose was your first adopted son? Myles Glasgow: Only adopted son, yes. So he' ; s 30 now, and... Anna Takada: And so which two sisters were on Magnolia Street? Myles Glasgow: Alice and... Edith Maeda: Grace, was it? Myles Glasgow: Grace. Grace Tatsui and Alice Hashimoto. So Grace' ; s husband is still living in Skokie, and Alice died about five years after we were here and her husband George had a some kind of a stroke at our house. Anna Takada: What did, what did your sisters end up doing for work, or-- Edith Maeda: One was a nurse. Myles Glasgow: That was Grace Tatsui. Edith Maeda: Uh-huh. Alice was a... Myles Glasgow: She was a volunteer, I thought. George was a jeweler, jeweler. Edith Maeda: Uh-huh. But she went to business, she went to business school, so she had always worked in business. But Grace was the nurse. Myles Glasgow: I think Alice probably volunteered a lot down here, that' ; s my impression. But it' ; s her son who is the jazz player, Steve Hashimoto, so it was Alice Hashimoto. Edith Maeda: Excuse me. Myles Glasgow: So Steve' ; s a very sophisticated Chicago guy, he grew up on the streets and he grew up in the music and he grew up playing jazz. And I think he' ; s had a regular gig at the Green Mill for many years. Anna Takada: And so when, when you first came back to Chicago in 2000, were you living close to your sisters or were you out in Skokie? Myles Glasgow: Skokie. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So when you came back you' ; ve been in Skokie since? Myles Glasgow: Yeah, we did surveys, my brother was already here, and we did surveys of school systems and we were severely discouraged from putting our son into a Chicago school. He was born in Guatemala with a learning disability called an auditory processing disability, and the people we spoke to were very closely connected to the Chicago school system and, and said, this is, " ; This would kill him." ; Not kill him, but anyway, today he left for graduate school in Southern Illinois University in marketing but you know. The idea was to follow the advice of somebody who was in the school system, my brother knew him, so... Anna Takada: And, you said that, Edie, you had retired before coming back to Chicago? Is that right? Myles Glasgow: Yeah. That, that was the only way that she would have left Washington. She had a very good staff and you know it was... Retiring is one thing, but living two and a half blocks from where you had worked and committed your life, your professional life, would have been like looking over the shoulder of somebody who was essentially doing your job. And so the thought was it' ; s better to separate yourself and gain the support that your family has. So Betsy Hashimoto is Alice' ; s daughter, and you know, Betsy is a mainstay in our lives, and, and it' ; s great to have that connection. Anna Takada: So, so your niece. Myles Glasgow: Yeah, so you hand over your Woodley House connection and you pick up your Betsy connection, and Steve and, and Glenn, Glenn Tatsui, who lives in... Edith Maeda: The nephew. Myles Glasgow: They live in Skokie, so there was reasons to go ahead and move into Skokie. Anna Takada: One thing I wanted to ask you was, do you remember what motivated or inspired you to work in occupational therapy and then you know, start that career that you had? Edith Maeda: Oh, going into it? Well, it, I went to the University of Illinois and they were, they had the course, the graduate course, and I just got acquainted with a lot of people who were in that field. So I got interested, mhmm. And I was working with mental health, and I worked with the mentally ill in the halfway house, so, so it was just fine. ' ; Cause, yeah, it was a great place to work. Myles Glasgow: Well when you worked with Fritz Redl too-- Edith Maeda: Mhmm oh yeah. Myles Glasgow: --you had already been trained in occupational therapy, but he showed you how a, an occupational therapist could fit within a team structure. Edith Maeda: Oh yeah, yeah I worked with disturbed kids with Fritz Redl, who was very well-known and, oh he was unbelievable. (Laughs) Everybody, when he talked, everybody stopped and listened, yeah. Including the kids, disturbed kids. Myles Glasgow: These were fire-setters. He had specifically asked principals of schools in Maryland near NIMH to take advantage of the support and program that he was directing at, in Bethesda, Maryland. So the principals knew who to encourage to go to this program, so Edie says that she was one of the few who were not tackled by these kids. Edith Maeda: Yeah, he was doing research at the, was... at the National Institute of Health, Mental Health. Myles Glasgow: --Mental Health. Anna Takada: And so we have time for a few more questions. One thing I, I want to ask is just about, kind of overall and in general, what are, what' ; s... When you think about your experiences of living and in part growing up a little bit in Chicago, you know how does-- I guess, how has Chicago played a part in your life, if at all? Edith Maeda: Well, played a big part, because the Japanese were put into camps and this was in the middle of the Arizona desert, is where we ended up, and so my father volunteered, so we were the, my brother and I were the only kids in the whole camp and it was a dust bowl. And so as soon as he, we could leave, we-- Which you, you had to have a position, my father got out here and worked at one of the department stores, Goldblatt' ; s, I think it was Goldblatt' ; s. And so we got out of camp fairly early, I don' ; t know if we even stayed a year, but we were guinea pigs in camp because we were the only kids, because the people who had come in were volunteers and they were all adults. School teachers and so on, people who were being sort of trained to, you know to welcome the crowd. And they were, really, it was in a desert, all dust bowl. Anna Takada: Well and, and back to Chicago, how do you feel about living in, in Chicago? Edith Maeda: Oh, we enjoyed it, it was good to be in Chicago and go to school here and I went to college here at U of I downstate. So my brother really liked it, as far as the schools go and mhmm. Anna Takada: One thing, one question I like to ask people, as we' ; re wrapping up these oral histories, is if you could leave any kind of legacy or message with your children or your son, what' ; s, what' ; s something you would want to leave with them? A message or legacy? Edith Maeda: A legacy? Anna Takada: Mhmm. Edith Maeda: Well, I think for any child or any family, is you know certainly registering you know the fact that growing up in a family is a way hopefully that we did that would sort of sustain him I think. We have one child, uh-huh, yup. And he was adopted, so it would be important to, to have, leave that with him. Anna Takada: Mhmm, kind of the importance of family. Edith Maeda: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: Are there any last things that you would like to, to share with me or that I might have missed in this conversation? Any other things you' ; d like to add? Edith Maeda: I can' ; t think of anything, except, what is this for? (laughs) How did we get in contact with this? How did this happen? Anna Takada: Well, your, your husband, Myles, reached out, since we' ; re, we' ; re working on this oral history project. Edith Maeda: Oh, how did you find out about it? Myles Glasgow: I must have read something. Edith Maeda: Oh, and what is this connected with? Anna Takada: The Japanese American Service Committee. Edith Maeda: Oh, the Service Committee. Anna Takada: And, and the Chicago Japanese American Historical Society. Edith Maeda: Oh, oh so you work with them? Anna Takada: Mhmm, yes. Edith Maeda: Oh. Anna Takada: So thank you so much again for coming in and for taking the time to, to speak with me. Edith Maeda: Mhmm. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MaedaEdith20180817.xml MaedaEdith20180817.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Sort Priority
4700
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MaedaEdith20180817.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maeda, Edith (8/17/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Edith Maeda, a nisei, was born in El Centro, CA in 1927. In this interview, she shares memories of her life before WWII and her family's experiences as early arrivals at the WRA incarceration site at Poston, AZ. She recalls the pervasive dust in the desert and lack of a school facility on-site. Following their incarceration, Edith's family resettled in Chicago, initially on the West Side where she finished high school. After college, Edith's career took her to Washington, DC, where she worked at the National Institute of Mental Health and the Woodley House. Edith returned to the Chicago area with her husband and son after retirement in order to be closer to family, and stresses the importance of family at the end of the interview.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-17
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/3cbd73ea9b5d601e99eebb39ffdc37e5.png
eb22fec93458bd14bd45c3149349311f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Matsumoto, Jason
Interview Keyword
Yonsei
Rohwer
Gila River
Military Intelligence Service
Midwest Buddhist Temple
Full Spectrum Features
Taiko
The Orange Story
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/10/2019 Matsumoto, Jason (9/10/2019) 2:01:11 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Yonsei Rohwer Gila River Military Intelligence Service Midwest Buddhist Temple Full Spectrum Features Taiko The Orange Story Matsumoto, Jason Takada, Anna video 1:|20(7)|36(13)|48(6)|60(4)|68(12)|86(11)|106(10)|114(12)|123(14)|136(6)|145(1)|157(14)|176(1)|187(13)|198(1)|208(6)|222(11)|234(3)|245(11)|269(10)|279(10)|290(6)|300(15)|310(4)|323(8)|334(5)|346(13)|364(6)|382(3)|400(1)|410(8)|420(13)|430(6)|442(11)|454(11)|466(8)|475(13)|487(8)|499(14)|527(7)|541(8)|551(2)|565(11)|581(11)|593(6)|601(9)|610(12)|622(6)|633(11)|643(4)|664(9)|675(3)|687(15)|699(12)|710(15)|723(7)|733(5)|747(12)|762(2)|773(1)|784(14)|796(9)|809(7)|823(6)|834(12)|844(9)|856(8)|867(15)|879(3)|891(12)|901(5)|911(9)|923(2)|935(4)|948(5)|959(4)|970(9)|977(9)|990(9)|1002(3)|1014(8)|1026(1)|1037(14)|1051(1)|1063(9)|1077(12)|1087(12)|1104(7)|1116(5)|1126(9)|1137(16)|1154(13)|1167(10)|1178(4)|1188(1)|1198(12)|1209(9)|1217(2)|1230(15)|1242(8)|1253(7)|1264(10)|1277(1)|1289(5)|1300(10)|1308(15)|1319(1)|1333(7)|1343(5)|1352(11)|1362(12)|1372(11)|1385(6)|1398(6)|1405(7)|1418(3)|1427(14)|1438(4)|1448(12)|1461(2)|1471(11) 0 https://vimeo.com/601369712/e820845729 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601369712?h=e820845729" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Jason Matsumoto is a yonsei born in Chicago to sansei parents who were also born in Chicago. His maternal grandparents were incarcerated at Rohwer, paternal grandmother was incarcerated at Gila River, and paternal grandfather served in the MIS. In this interview, Jason discusses his experiences growing up in Wilmette, IL, his family's involvement with the Midwest Buddhist Temple, the influence of his grandfather Ben Chikaraishi, and his interest in taiko drumming. He shares his reasons for leaving Chicago to attend college in Seattle, WA, his motivations for studying abroad in Japan, and the path that ultimately led him to become one of the founders of Full Spectrum Features, a Chicago-based nonprofit film production company. Throughout the interview, Jason reflects on his evolving sense of identity, the strengths of the Chicago Japanese American community, and the importance of aligning his work with his personal values. Anna Takada: Start with a slating, just introducing the project. Jason Matsumoto: Okay. Anna Takada: And we' ; ll get right into questions. This is an interview with Jason Matsumoto as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview' ; s being conducted on Tuesday, September 10th, 2019 at 11:41 AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Jason Matsumoto is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please state your full name? Jason Matsumoto: Yes, my name is Jason Katsuo Matsumoto. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? Jason Matsumoto: I was born in Chicago on November 23rd, 1982 at St. Joseph' ; s Hospital. It' ; s the one you can see from Lake Shore Drive that has blue facade. Anna Takada: And can you tell me about where and when your parents were born? Jason Matsumoto: Well, yes. So they were both born in Chicago in, I believe, Morton Grove. My mom was born in Morton Grove and my dad was born in the city, I believe, close to like, either in Lincoln Park or Old Town area. Anna Takada: And what years were they born? Jason Matsumoto: Oh my God. 19--, (laughs) 1950-- something. Anna Takada: In the ' ; 50s. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Anna Takada: Cool. So like I mentioned, we are interested in hearing about your family' ; s experiences during the war. You know, of course, with our generation, we don' ; t have all of the details, so like whatever you can offer about your family' ; s background is like totally fine. So I guess to, to start, I know you mentioned you know more about your mom' ; s family' ; s background? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Anna Takada: So, would you be-- Do you know like maybe where, where they were from originally, how they ended up in, I believe, it was California? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, sure. So I' ; ll start with my grandmother on my, my mom' ; s side. So Kiyo, her, her maiden name was Chino, so Kiyo Chino. She was born in Utah, actually, and her father had come over and was a coal miner in Utah. I think the story is that he, he landed somewhere either somewhere on the West Coast, I, I think in Seattle potentially, and at that time they were sending people to Utah to do coal mining. They were sending Japanese Americans to Utah to do coal mining. He ended up there, and he had a picture bride wife and so they, they started their family in Utah, so my grandmother was born there. Um, s-- Anna Takada: Do you know when she was born? Jason Matsumoto: No, I don' ; t know the day. She' ; -- It' ; s 2019. She was 95... Yeah, I don' ; t know. I can fill in like dates late-- dates later. And, she actually grew up... You know, I think there were some Japanese Americans there, but not a lot. And, she grew up Mormon. So maybe the, the influence was from Utah, or just being, just being specifically in that area. And she remembers her, her, her mother was a housewife and was, you know, aside from taking care of all the, all the, all of her siblings and, and her, she would do things like wash all the miners' ; clothes and... like for a fee you know? So, they were, they were fairly poor. And I think what happened was one of the family members, I believe it was of, my grandmother' ; s mother, was living in Terminal Island and they were working in the canneries in Terminal Island. And so, at some point before the war and before the forced removal, they moved from Utah as, as an entire family to Terminal Island and began working in the canneries. And so she ended up... It' ; s, it' ; s kinda funny I-- You know I think if they had never done that, they wouldn' ; t have been incarcerated, right? Because I think Utah was outside of the zone, but they ended up moving... I think, just a few years, maybe like three or four years before the forced removal. They, they lived in Terminal Island. They moved around a few different times before you know eventually being removed from where they were, so it was kinda this interesting... I, I just didn' ; t know that many people that were, that were living or from Utah, you know? So it was an interesting thing. I wonder how many folks were, were there. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Anna Takada: And so that was your maternal grandma' ; s family. Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm. Anna Takada: And do you-- Let' ; s see. Do you have details on your paternal grandfather' ; s family, where they started or... Jason Matsumoto: Paternal grandfather' ; s? Anna Takada: Mhm-- Ah, your mom' ; s dad. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. So they... So, so my grandfather, Ben Chikaraishi, he and his family were from Stockton, California. I-- I actually think they, they lived in a few different places before Stockton in California. And yeah he, so he' ; s... So my, my grandfather, he was one of... one, two, three... Maria Pimentel: Sorry. That was so... Anna Takada: Very loud. Jason Matsumoto: Oh, you pick that up? Yeah. Maria Pimentel: Yeah. Jason Matsumoto: He was one of what, four kids, right? Yeah. So, yeah. I think he was one of four kids? Four or five, maybe five? Yeah. I should know all this. (laughs) And, so yeah. So he was, you know they were, they were in Stockton, which was a much bigger Japanese American community, obviously, than Utah. And they owned a, like a transient hotel, like a hotel for, for like farm laborers. And so he remembers kind of having, kind of a strange upbringing, where you know, all the kids were fairly separated in this pretty large hotel. And they... As, as kids, they had to, had to kind of like experience and deal with like very interesting people, mostly men who were, you know farm laborers. And he remembers things like you know, you know just like a transient scene, like some prostitution going on, maybe some like fairly, you know, nefarious things happening in the hotel. And a lot of him and his siblings' ; jobs were to take care of the hotel, so he, he talks about, you know taking care of, you know the toilets in the different rooms and cleaning things. He... It was interesting. I think he, he never really had like a, a strong like drive or aspiration to go to college. He mentioned to me one time that he was going to be a barber and his, his advisor in school, maybe a mentor, maybe a teacher, potentially saw something in him and was-- and, and kind of encouraged him to think bigger and go to college, and so that was like kind of a pivotal person, a pivotal moment. He talks about that person, and so he ended up going to Berkeley to study and he was, I think, three quarters of the way towards an optometry degree when the family was removed, but he, he seemed to have like a very vibrant life, I think, growing up. He was, he was part of the temple because-- or he went to church because he didn' ; t want to go to Japanese school, but that became like kind of a strong thread within his life. Anna Takada: In Stockton? Jason Matsumoto: In Stockton, yeah. He played baseball. He did, he did things like kendo, you know, so he was fairly active. And, yeah I mean he was... I-- It' ; s hard to imagine like being three quarters of the way through a degree and then like kind of, getting that taken away from you. But, he talks about, you know, he was away at Berkeley when Executive Order 90- 9066 came out, and then having to make the decision with his family about what to do. And they were trying to tell him to stay in school for as long as possible to see if he could finish the degree ' ; cause they didn' ; t know what was going to happen. But his, his father... So, so his mother, I think, was fairly sick and his... She passed away before they were effectively incarcerated. And his father got picked up by the FBI, I think, kind of like in a dragnet kind of way, where he wasn' ; t really like a strong community leader, but he had donated money to Ben' ; s kendo club at one point. And the publication where his name was printed had a, like a headshot of, I think, one of the military leaders of Japan on it ' ; cause I think that, that, that military leader was like a high level kendo player. And so, basically anybody that had donated money, it was the equivalent of a, you know 50 or 100 bucks, he had donated cash to his son, Ben' ; s kendo club and then that landed him in you know the FBI-- the, the Department of Justice camps. So without the mother and-- or the mother being sick and the father being taken away, Ben came back to kind of figure out what to do with the family. Anna Takada: Is he the eldest? Jason Matsumoto: No, he was, he was the second oldest, so his, his older sister was the one that you know, was there to kind of see the FBI come and take, and take their father, but he was still at school at that time. Anna Takada: And would you happen to know details on like whether there was any kind of like, official guardianship or something offered to the eldest siblings because... Jason Matsumoto: By, by the government? Anna Takada: Yeah. Jason Matsumoto: They' ; ve never mentioned that to me. I don' ; t know. Like was that a thing? I don' ; t know because-- Anna Takada: I, I, I don' ; t know, but I, I' ; m curious about it because you know, by removing the head of household and I know that that was very much how things were organized, by head of household, so I just wasn' ; t sure. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. No, they never mentioned anybody kind of coming in to... At least from, you know like a government perspective or a government official or somebody that was, that was assigned to them. Anna Takada: Or like I wonder if looking through their documents if Ben and maybe his older sibling were like marked as head of household or something. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, yeah I would assume it was that and I would assume it was the oldest... The oldest child w-- you know kind of became the head. But I don' ; t know. It' ; s a good question. I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: I did want to go back a little bit, just to see if, if you happen to know any information about your grandparents' ; parents in coming to the U.S., if that' ; s safe to, to assume that it was their parents who came to the U.S. from Japan? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. I don' ; t know a lot about like the circumstances. I know that at least for, so for Ben' ; s ... So Ben was the second son and so they, that family, like the Chikaraishi family, they were from Hiroshima, and this is kind of vague, but I think, you know they-- So, so actually, I visited them, that, that kind of like that, that side of the family at some point, and they still actually have a farm or some kind of like plot of land that, that is like farm land in Hiroshima. And what I' ; ve been told is that it was bad crop, but the house was valuable, so they, you know they, they left the eldest son, I think as, as many families did, in Hiroshima. And that' ; s actually something that, that my grandfather Ben talks about all the time. That' ; s like... He knew that his father felt incredibly guilty about that, because Hiroshima ended up getting you know, bombed right? And he felt so guilty about leaving his eldest son there, that like most of the money that they, the family had made would be sent back to Japan to kind of like, in some, in some way, to feel in some way that he was contributing to the eldest son' ; s life in, back in Japan. And so... I think there were like a few back and forth trips. I know, I think Ben, my grandfather had... like remembers his father going back a few times prior to the war, but I don' ; t know the circumstances. What I' ; ve been told is that it, you know it was like a really bad crop and they weren' ; t... Just life was very difficult, and they weren' ; t able to make money and so they were looking for something outside of Japan to do. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Jason Matsumoto: And then... Yeah, I don' ; t know much about my, my... So, so Kiyo' ; s family. I know that... I don' ; t know where her father is, is from, specifically in Japan, but I do know that you know, h-his-- her mother was sent over as a picture bride. I don' ; t know where they' ; re from in Japan, though. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And how, how about your, your dad' ; s family? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, so my dad' ; s family, you know, in the U.S., his mother, so that' ; s Yoko and her maiden name is Yamamoto, they were from, I believe, the Tokyo area or maybe somewhere like a bit more rural than Tokyo, but they had like relatives close or not far from Tokyo. And then his father was from the Fukushima area. And, so yeah it' ; s kind of interesting because it' ; s, it' ; s vastly different from like the concentration of people that came from you know Hiroshima, like, you know more towards the South, that my father' ; s side of the family, I think, came from closer to Tokyo area or a little bit further north from where like a lot of pre-war Japanese Americans came from. I believe they were also farmers, and... At least on, on my, on my dad' ; s father' ; s side. Yeah. Anna Takada: What was your dad' ; s father' ; s name? Jason Matsumoto: Katsuo Matsumoto. He always used to talk about this place called Aizuwakamatsu, which is somewhere within Fukushima. And I think that' ; s, that' ; s, they w- they were from a place close to that area. There' ; s a really famous like samurai story that he would like incessantly tell me all the time. Anna Takada: Your grandfather? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, yeah. From like that town, so I think he was from somewhere close to that area. I should ask my cousin, he' ; s got like the entire family tree memorized. They, so my grandmother on my dad' ; s side, they were from like the Santa Maria area in, in the U.S., at, at least, so they, they lived in and around Santa Maria. And then my... The, the Matsumoto side were living in Los Angeles, I think pretty close to like, you know what is now like Hollywood area, so like, you know prime real estate. (laughs) Anna Takada: And both of your dad' ; s parents came to the U.S. from Japan? They' ; re originally from Japan? Jason Matsumoto: My, no my, I think they were both born here. Anna Takada: Okay. Jason Matsumoto: So yeah like their, their families came. My grandfather was Kibei though, so he went back and, and was you know educated, I think, for like five or six years, fairly formative years in Japan. Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry, you said your grandfather was? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, yeah. And, yeah so... That' ; s like I don' ; t... yeah I just don' ; t know a lot about them. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Anna Takada: Well, and then so when the war broke out, do you know where, let' ; s see, where all of your grandparents, respectively, where they ended up, like, assembly center, camp? Jason Matsumoto: I was asking my aunt this last night. I, so we don' ; t-- I don' ; t know where my... So, I' ; ll start with my father' ; s side. So, on my dad' ; s side, my grandmother' ; s family, the Yamamotos, they... I' ; m not sure what assembly center they went to, but they ended up in Gila River and then my grandfather, he actually was never incarcerated because he was, he joined the military and I think he was within MIS but he wasn' ; t like, like an intelligence officer at all. I think he, he was a, like an army cook, and he was based, he was, I think, eventually based in Minnesota, but I think spent some time in Kansas, too. Anna Takada: And then your mom, your mom' ; s parents? Jason Matsumoto: They both were at Santa Anita. Yeah so they were both in like the horse stalls in Santa Anita. And, yeah my grandmother remembers, you know I think, graduating high school in... on a horse track. So, she was there and my grandfather was also at Santa Anita and then they both were moved from Santa Anita to Rohwer, Arkansas. Anna Takada: And so as far as... Well, I guess first of all, I want to ask, like when you were growing up, was this particular family history, was it something that you guys talked about or that you were aware of as, you know as a kid, or... Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. I mean I don' ; t remember really engaging with it as a kid. I think I was lucky ' ; cause my grandfather was fairly outspoken about it, maybe more so than other families were. Although he never... You know when you go back and you try to find out information from just my aunts and uncles and my parents, it' ; s very clear that like their parents never spoke to them about it and I, you know that' ; s a, that' ; s a, that' ; s a common narrative. But it was never, it never felt like a huge family secret. It' ; s just something that I didn' ; t know to ask about and maybe my parents didn' ; t have any like any information and also felt like it was, it, there was a weird relationship to actually ask those questions. But you know I will say that Ben was always very outspoken about it and would speak at you know various public things and events about it, so it wasn' ; t, it never felt like it was a huge secret. It just didn' ; t feel like it was, it ever bubbled up to the surface naturally in any kind of conversation you know when we were having, having any kinda like family gatherings. But in, in... I was in junior high school. I think it was seventh or eighth grade? And, yeah, I think it was a history teacher. He... Yeah he was very interested in the fact that we were Japanese and that we were living in, you know the ' ; burbs of Chicago. Anna Takada: Where did you go to junior high? Jason Matsumoto: Wilmette Junior High School. And, you know, he just asked me this question, like " ; Hey, do you, does your family have any connection to this history?" ; And through that, you know we had, I asked my mom. You know I don' ; t remember this exactly, but I came home from school and was like, " ; Hey, my history teacher asked me about our family history. Do you know anything about this?" ; And then eventually led to my grandfather doing like a presentation at, at my school. And you know, I think when he retells the story, he always retells it as though he was coming to speak to just my single class, but they ended up, the school and this teacher ended up creating like an entire like school assembly around it, so he got very nervous and he, I think he holds it against me in a way like, " ; Hey, why' ; d you put me out there?" ; Yeah. But you know he, he, I think that just goes to show like he' ; s, he was willing to go out and speak about his experiences and talk about them. And I think through that, that got me like slightly interested. You know, just like, " ; Hmm it' ; s, it' ; s interesting to, to see like a school kind of organize a thing, like a full school assembly around like my grandfather' ; s story. There must be something more to that." ; But I, I don' ; t feel like I got super invested in you know working in this history or like learning more about it for a very long time after that, still. You know, I think it was something that was like, " ; Okay, that' ; s interesting. Maybe there' ; s something behind that," ; and maybe it like stuck in the back of my mind, but it wasn' ; t like I became like a social justice warrior from that you know, from that like seventh or eighth grade class you know? Anna Takada: But it does seem like that was kind of a moment where you understood that this was your, your family' ; s history. Jason Matsumoto: Totally a pivotal moment in like my understanding of, that, that something about that was very important. Yeah. Anna Takada: So, the next question I wanted to ask is just about you know, if there were any particular family stories or maybe memories that you have heard about from your family about their experiences in camp. I just, you know ' ; cause family folklore is like always a big thing. So I' ; m just wondering if, if there were things either you know, from a younger age or later in life that you heard of about or heard repeated in your family about their experiences? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, so one th-- so one story that my grandfather on my, on my father' ; s side used to always tell us, I mean I think he... He had a very difficult life because as a Kibei, he came back to the States and then you know he was, he was-- like a lot of his formative years like learning language and kinda how to communicate were in Japan and in Japanese, and so he, I think he had this like bitterness about kind of what that felt like to come back and to be like maybe six-- four, five, or six years older than like the people that he was actually in class with because he, his English skills were like almost nonexistent when he came back, and so-- Anna Takada: Do you know when he came back? Jason Matsumoto: Um, no. Anna Takada: Like either age within his life or actually years? Jason Matsumoto: I think it was like sixth or seventh grade, maybe? Anna Takada: Okay. Jason Matsumoto: Or maybe fourth or fifth grade. Anna Takada: And was that before the war? Jason Matsumoto: That was before the war, yeah. So I think he always felt like, outcasted from the very beginning. And this is not necessarily in camp ' ; cause he didn' ; t go to camp, but when he was serving for the military, he remembers, you know, I think there was... One of the Roosevelt family members was visiting this base. I think it was, I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt, but it might have been one of the kids. I don' ; t think it was the president. And, they, they got all the... All the soldiers you know were obviously getting ready. It was a very exciting moment, like you know a political leader' ; s coming to kind of like rally the troops and you know everybody' ; s you know like getting dressed and you know putting their best on. And they ended up funneling all the Japanese Americans into this like barrack and they locked it or something. It was a mess hall or a barrack and they locked it because of you know, just, just distrust, right? And I think there' ; s like, there' ; s a corroborating story about this and I think, I think JANM did a whole thing and they, they found some of the guys who were there to come and talk about this and I think it happened in Kansas? My grandfather always used, used to tell me that it happened in Minnesota, but I think it actually happened when he was on base in Kansas and he kinda remembers that as like you know just a complete blow to like what it meant-- Maria Pimentel: Sorry, can you repeat that? What you were saying about your grandfather? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Maria Pimentel: Realizing what happened, you know-- Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, sure. So you know these, the, the Japanese American unit was kind of funneled off into a separate part of the base and he recalls, this is, this is my grandfather on my father' ; s side, he recalls that barrack or that like mess hall or whatever being locked as a way to protect whoever this was, like the, one of the Roosevelts, from you know, the Japanese Americans who, who they thought could, could maybe try to like, I don' ; t know, attack that person? And I think for him, somebody who just felt completely outcasted from like a very young age, and you know I think entering military service for him was a way to prove loyalty. And then like in that singular moment of like being locked up and distrusted when somebody who' ; s coming to like rally the troops from like a very high political stance, it, it, it kind of embodied you know the, the conflict of like what that must have felt. I mean, for me to imagine what that must have felt like, but for him to, to be like, " ; I' ; m, I' ; m doing all the right things. I' ; m, I' ; m trying to, to serve my country," ; right? But like at, at every turn, even like something as simple as like a visit from one of the Roosevelts, we can' ; t even participate in that. So that' ; s one of the stories that he used to always tell me. And then, I think maybe on a lighter note, you know how we always talk about how like we can' ; t drink a lot of beer, or a lot of whatever. His, his, his nickname in, in the Army was " ; One-Can Matsumoto" ; . Yeah. Or no, no, sorry, " ; Half-Can Matsumoto" ; . (Laughs). So I get my drinking abilities from him. Yeah, and so that' ; s always one that kind of like comes to mind. On, on the other side of my family, you know I did this like oral history with my, with Kiyo and Ben Chikaraishi a few years ago and it was really great ' ; cause we just got to ask a bunch of questions and kind of hear more about their life, and it gave us an excuse to like ask very specific questions, and... One thing that my-- It, it' ; s always interesting to hear how people meet, you know? And you know, one thing that my grandfather and grandmother told us about how like they met was, so my grandmother was, she lived in, in Rohwer, like one of the barracks that was close to the hospital. And so my grandfather would have to kind of walk past... Was that right, or is it the other way around? Anyways, he, he, he was always, he was always attracted by her long legs. (Laughs) And he' ; d always tell me like, this is like really kind of mean, but he' ; d always tell me, he' ; s like, " ; It wasn' ; t like the other Japanese American girls who had like you know, kind of like short stubby legs, you know? She had long legs, you know?" ; And it was just, it' ; s, I think, for me, it' ; s funny to kind of like think about them as like a romantic, like in some kind of romantic relationship, because you get so caught up in like these, like the facts and like the, the terrible aspects, and-- But like you know these people are just like 18- to 20-year olds who are, have the same kind of like romantic feelings, and they' ; re just trying to like find, find and make, make the situation normal for themselves. So like, you know comments like that were really hilarious, and just a good reminder of like, you know they' ; re just, they' ; re just, just kids who are trying to figure it out. Just recently, too, like my... So, there' ; s that like, there' ; s that Rohwer Pilgrimage that, that' ; s starting to happen every year, and they' ; ve been distributing old like publications from, I don' ; t know what it' ; s called, but like whatever publication was, was being created as like a newspaper in the camp at Rohwer. And there was this, there was this article about my grandfather who played baseball you know in camp, and it' ; s a hilarious article about how the bespectacled Chikarai-- Ben Chikaraishi hits like a three run homer, or something like that. And, and it' ; s just really like th- those moments where you just like get a glimpse of what, what maybe like the more positive side of like living in those places was, and just like normal daily life. And I actually got to like, I talked to him maybe a week ago and I was like, " ; Hey, and so I read this article" ; and there' ; s all these names that are in this article who are like his teammates. And so I was, I' ; m, I' ; m, I' ; m reading names, and he' ; s just like kind of sitting there kind of like smiling and thinking about... I guess all those guys played baseball together in Stockton, so this is like even pre-war. They kind of like kept this, this unit and this team you know together, and like when there was a baseball you know league created in camp, like they, they again, formed a team. So it' ; s, it' ; s kind of like a cool moment where like you see like... We think of these, these incarceration sites as like just a, just a huge aggregation of people, but they have all these little cliques and these, these, these like social, kind of groups that I think remained and existed, throughout both like coming into the incarceration, but then also where people resettled too. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. On that note, do you know about when, when family members left camp and, and where folks ended up? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I don' ; t know, I don' ; t know years like really well. I know that... So, again, I know that Ben, my grandfather on my, my mom' ; s side, he left pretty early. I think he, he was able to find a job in Chicago as a way out. So he left... Three... Yeah, I think like as early as ' ; 43? And he left on July 4th, of, of, of all dates. He tells a really great story that I think-- about his departure date that I think is like really telling for like you know, America, and kind of like what was happening. Maybe both like back then, but also today, just in, in terms of how we order ourselves by different characteristics. And he, you know he' ; s, he' ; s been incarcer-- Like, so he' ; s been removed from his home in California, brought to a prison in the middle of Arkansas, where they' ; re like the only like non-white and non-Black people, like in, probably in the state. And he gets released on you know, Independence Day, the 4th of July, and he gets on a bus. And it' ; s like the segregated south, so there' ; s white people in the front and Black people in the back. And, I can never tell the story the way he tells it, ' ; cause he' ; s got like, he uses the word " ; Gee" ; a lot, like, " ; Gee, what do I do?" ; you know? But he, so he was like, " ; Well, I just, you know I was just imprisoned by the government for the past like few years, and I must be like you know, in the back with, with the Black people. So he goes to the back and he sits down, and the bus driver then stops the bus and is like, " ; Hey, what are you doing back there? You don' ; t belong back there." ; And so he was like, " ; Well, what do I do? You know, like where do I belong?" ; And so he ended up like finding a seat like literally kind of in like the, the color spectrum of the bus right? So he found a seat right in between the Black and white sections. And I think that, he says that that was one of the first times that he realized, you know, despite what Japanese Americans had gone through, being imprisoned and losing all their property and possessions, they were still considered to be above Black Americans, and they were still considered to be ' ; better than' ; , or, or you know whatever. They were still considered to be more accepted and more acceptable than Black people, you know in that time. And he was like, " ; Wow, that' ; s, that' ; s like a really..." ; It, it was interesting backdrop in context for him to think-- Maria Pimentel: Sorry, can I pause you? I can hear what they' ; re saying outside. Anna Takada: Oh, okay. Jason Matsumoto: Okay. Anna Takada: Sorry about that. Maria Pimentel: Sorry about that. Jason Matsumoto: That' ; s cool. This story is like well documented. (laughs) Anna Takada: I, I have it from him as well. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, totally. Did he use, did he say gee a lot? " ; Gee, where do I sit?" ; I, he, always says that. Anna Takada: There' ; s a good chance. Maria Pimentel: Sorry, I can hear you with the microphone. I can hear you. Anna Takada: Oh. We' ; re filming something right now, do you guys ... Maria Pimentel: Oh, if you turn on the sound, then you won' ; t be able to shoot. Anna Takada: Okay. Sorry about that. Thank you-- And resettling. So your grandfather left in ' ; 43 to Chicago. Jason Matsumoto: Mm-hmm. I think my grandmother left the year after that. I don' ; t know, I don' ; t know when my grandfather was, either discharged or left the Army to come to Chicago. I don' ; t really know when my grandmother, on my father' ; s side, left either. Anna Takada: But everybody went to Chicago? Jason Matsumoto: Everybody went to Chicago. Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you know where folks ended up in Chicago, or what they were doing? Jason Matsumoto: So I know that, so on my dad' ; s side, I don' ; t know where they started off, but they did, like eventually, and nobody knows if they owned it or just managed it, but they, they had, they were running a place called the Windsor Hotel, which was like a boarding house on, somewhere on Clark Street. I just found that out from like a completely random letter that like my mom just showed me. But, so I' ; m going to try to dig more into that because it' ; s like fascinating. And, and then they, this is the, sorry, this is my father' ; s mother' ; s family. So the Yamamotos. Yeah. I also asked because it was curious to me, I didn' ; t think they had a lot of money. Like they weren' ; t... My grandmother, so my grandmother on my dad' ; s side, her father was a truck driver back in, back in California. So he didn' ; t, you know he was like a truck driver for like produce, he didn' ; t have a ton of money, so I' ; m not really sure how they were able to afford either like renting the entire Windsor Hotel and like running it, or purchasing it. But I know that a lot of my, a lot of that family lived, were like tenants. So I think they filled it out with both their own family and then plus you know renting it out to people, probably other Japanese Americans who were coming to Chicago. And then, they eventually bought a place on Racine, which was also like a larger building. I think it was South Racine, like on a larger building that, that also housed some family members and some other folks, so property game. And then my, my grandfather on my mom' ; s side started off on the-- Anna Takada: Sorry, Jason. Jason Matsumoto: We' ; re good. Anna Takada: I' ; m so sorry, but I just got to start doing this at night. Maria Pimentel: Yeah, last time it was so... No one interrupted... Jason Matsumoto: He remembers like these like streets. Yeah, it was funny, we were doing this like taiko show maybe like five or six years ago. UChicago, and we were going to do it at the International House. And then like I don' ; t know, later on I found out that both my grandparents like served food at the International House on Chicago. Sorry, at, at, at the, at the University of Chicago. So I think that was like maybe a, a job that people were able to pick up. Yeah. So they... And then after Ben and Kiyo got married, they were one of, one of the, one of the first families, I think, to kind of move to the suburbs, and they ended up moving to Morton Grove. Anna Takada: And you said that' ; s where your mom was born? Jason Matsumoto: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: Did your dad' ; s family stay on the North Side? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, so my f- my dad grew up on Hudson, like right by the temple, right by the Midwest Buddhist Temple. So they were kind of in that community, near like, in and around Lincoln Park and Old Town. Anna Takada: And so let' ; s see, as far as what you' ; ve heard from your family, or know of your family' ; s history, was resettlement ever something that was kind of talked about, or did you ever get information or stories about moving to Chicago from the camp? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah I mean not... So, my grandfather on my mom' ; s side, Ben, he would always talk about the housing situation, and how difficult it was to, I think, first, you know just even find housing that, that would be consistent and clean. And yeah I--, besides kind of the challenges of housing, not much. Like I know a little bit about how my grandmother and her sister, on my dad' ; s side, they were domestics. And I just found out that they had like changed their names to be like very American names. Like I, I can' ; t remember what it was, but it was like, like Lucy or something like super kind of generic names they had changed. And I' ; m not sure if it was in order to work as a domestic, or kind of in order to maybe just like fit in, or assimilate. But they never really... you know I think we all have come to understand that resettlement, in a way, was chapter three, and like the hardest part. But I didn' ; t get a lot of like individual or like kind of family stories about how difficult that was. Yeah. You know I know my grandfather was like very active, this is my grandfather on my, my mom' ; s side, was very active in trying to like help rebuild the community. So he was, I guess, in a way, kind of dedicated to that. Both like through his profession, he, he eventually became an optometrist and was like, became a very central figure to the community through his work, and he also, he dedicated so much time to these like social organizations. Like the sports leagues, like CNAA, and also the temple. So I know that, in a way, he was, he was like very dedicated to trying to figure out like things, or activities, or institutions for people to become a part of, or to do. And some of that, you know like he doesn' ; t talk about it too often, but like you know like when I ask him about the reason why, like there' ; s often mention of like you know there' ; s just like a lost generation of people that don' ; t have anything to do, or like no community, as they, they move from you know like maybe a very strong community, from what they knew in Stockton, California, or wherever, on the West Coast, to coming to a place where they h- they literally had to live in the same place and build you know relationships and communities, to a place like Chicago where you can just get lost in the sea of things. And you know like the risk of like young people getting tied up in whatever. I think he had like a strong interest in trying to create some semblance of a community here. Maria Pimentel: Sorry, I' ; m going to possibly stop. I' ; m going to, since they' ; re talking, I' ; m going to move the mic a little bit. Anna Takada: To start, would you be able to tell me about, ' ; cause like we' ; re really interested in identity here in this part, but like when you were growing up, and then your upbringing in the Chicagoland area, in what ways were you connected to your Japanese heritage, or, or you know family heritage? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I think the strongest connection to family, or maybe some, some idea, like without really knowing it or thinking about it intentionally, of, of the community was through the Midwest Buddhist Temple. You know I grew up in a place that... Wilmette, did not have like a large Japanese American population, or even Asian American population, or any population outside of just you know, like white American, right? And so that was, I think, the strongest connection to the community. Was every Sunday we would go and you know like I' ; d just be like hanging out with my classmates throughout the week, and on Saturday, like just friends from the neigh-- from, from Wilmette, and then... that looked very white and American. And then we would go on, once a week, on Sunday, to the temple, and that would be all my cousins and my family, and like the, the larger... and all, all my grandparents and all their friends. So just a one day blast of the community, right? And yeah, I think that' ; s kind of what that represented to me without, you know I wasn' ; t like acknowledging it or like aware of it really, but that' ; s, when you look back on it, that' ; s what was happening, like that was the connection to the community. Maria Pimentel: Sorry, I can do something really quick. Anna Takada: I' ; m so sorry! Jason Matsumoto: Okay. Maria Pimentel: Okay. Good. Anna Takada: So attending temple on Sundays was a big connection... Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm. Anna Takada: Were there other ways that you were involved with the community? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I mean, I think-- There was... So when I was growing up I always played taiko, which I think, in this kind of weird way, like again, I never thought of it this deeply when I was like a young kid, but that was certainly something that kept me connected to something that was Japanese, or felt Japanese, or Japanese American. And, I also did, did kendo for a little while with my cousin. And again, so you know I think that that' ; s like... I, I don' ; t know whose idea that was, like if it was my parents' ; , or my cousin' ; s parents' ; , or my grandfather' ; s, but you know it was interesting. I do remember my grandmother giving us rides there. So maybe there was some influence from, you know my grandfather doing kendo like a long time ago. He' ; s like, " ; Hey, you should do this thing." ; So yeah, there was like you know, pockets and like moments where certainly there was some connection back to you know, like the community, and kind of these activities that, that you can call Japanese or Japanese American. Yeah. Anna Takada: Growing up, did your family speak any Japanese at all? Jason Matsumoto: No, my, my parents, not at all. And my grandparents, very rarely. You know they would, on my mother' ; s side, they would talk about how they, they knew very old-style Japanese. But then on my father' ; s side, my, you know ' ; cause my fath-- my father' ; s father was a Kibei, so he, he was the only person with a really deep accent when he spoke English, almost to the point where you couldn' ; t... sometimes you couldn' ; t understand what he was saying. And he just wouldn' ; t talk very much. And so yeah, there was li--, there was no, there was no like learning, or, I mean there were just a few words, I think, that like many families heard. Like urusai, like, " ; You' ; re loud," ; or, you know like " ; Stop that," ; stuff like that. So just these very, very sparse, very sparsely used. And I think our parents passed it... Like my, my parents passed it on based on what their parents would say to them in Japanese. Yeah, but besides that there was, there was really no, no connection to the language. Anna Takada: And, growing up in Wilmette, you mentioned that it was predominantly white. Did you, did you ever experience any kind of discrimination or... like growing up? Jason Matsumoto: I think, overtly, like there were, there, there' ; s a few moments I can remember... It was, it was really interesting. My cousins, who had grown up kind of in a lot of different places but were living in California at that time, we were at a Blockbuster here. Blockbuster, so, yeah, that, that dates it, right? We were at a Blockbuster here, when, maybe I was like nine or 10 years old, and my cousins were also here from the West Coast. And, this kid, we were leaving the store and this white kid like said something, like, he did the eye, like the eye? (gestures) Said, " ; Chink," ; or something like that, and I had no idea what was going on. I was just very oblivious to like, " ; What is racism?" ; Or like, " ; What does it mean to be like you know, overtly, you know like called some name?" ; And, but, but my cousin, who was I think one year older than me, and again, I think maybe because he like grew up in like a more predominantly Asian setting, like he was like livid and wanted to fight this kid. And my mom was like, " ; No, let' ; s not fight him." ; You know so it was just this, this moment where like I had to think, I, I didn' ; t know what was happening, and I had to think about like what that meant. And watching my cousin like get so angry about it, made me, it was kind of like one of those moments where you' ; re like, it made you think a little bit deeper about what the situation was. Yeah. But I don' ; t really remember a lot of overtly racist things, you know like, thinking about like systemic oppression and things like that. I' ; m sure there' ; s plenty of stuff happening in Wilmette, and through like the school systems, and all that stuff, but I never felt like, you know I had like a group of friends and I never felt like it was like, I was super different in any way. Yeah. Anna Takada: And-- Excuse me. You mentioned that, you know like, even from a young age you had plenty of connections with, with the Japanese American community in Chicago and this, this heritage, but you weren' ; t totally aware or thinking about it from like an identity lens. Like, " ; This is my personal identity." ; So at, at what point did you... Like I guess, how would you like describe the, the process of your own like personal identity development? Jason Matsumoto: Sure, yeah. I should also mention, too, that I was part of the youth group at here at, at JASC, right? And there was, there was a time in which we, there was a youth group. I remember there was a woman named Mayumi Willgerodt that was leading it. I think with her husband, and again, like I never thought of these things in any deep way at the time. It was like, " ; Oh, cool, it' ; s a thing with people my age. Mostly my cousins and some people that like go to MBT, and let' ; s do this, let' ; s hang out." ; Anna Takada: So that was just a social, what was the youth group? Jason Matsumoto: I think it was just social. I' ; m sure there was more to it, but I, I didn' ; t really engage like enough to be, to think about identity, you know? I think I was just like... Yeah, in a lot of ways, just like maybe like the way that I thought about identity was that I was always trying to fit in, in the place that... Like at New Trier High School, you know like in Wilmette, like with my group of white friends. Like, maybe that was the way that I was engaging with it, by just trying to like, kind of be accepted into that, but I never, it, it never occurred to me that like working towards a specific identity-- Maria Pimentel: Sorry. [inaudible 00:58:05] do that. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. You know, there' ; s these big taiko conferences in LA where, in, like in the early years it was predominantly Japanese American people. And I think to see a lot of people that look like you, who are older than you, who you can kind of, kind of look up to and aspire to, and see them in a, in a massive group like that, like you know, talking about whatever they' ; re talking about, but just being normal people and like existing, that could have been influential. But as I was deciding on going to college, I was like, " ; Well, it' ; s probably really important for me to like engage in a place that has more Asian people, you know just generally. Like I, like I wonder what that would feel like." ; You know? And so I, I remember going, like that as like a pretty big decision point. That, and I think, in a way, through taiko too, ' ; cause I was much more invested in taiko, and getting better at taiko by that time, like in junior, senior year of high school. And, and so that was also a big decision, like, there needs to be a vibrant taiko community wherever I go to college, because I want to play. And I remember going to, I think it was like a 1999 taiko conference where there was a group in Seattle who was like, they were all my age, they were all Japanese American, and they were, they were good. And I was like, " ; Oh, I want to be part of that group." ; You know? And so, I think that was also very influential in my decision to go to Seattle specifically, where there was a vibrant Japanese American community, there was like four or five different taiko groups that were really good. The one that I wanted to get into, I did get into. And, yeah, and then I think, from there, you know like I was in... At, at Univers-- sorry, University of Washington, I had no idea, like there was a guy... So like I was, I was in like the business school, right? But I could take electives, and so my friend and I, we were like, " ; Oh, we should do something, like Asian American related." ; Just, you know " ; We' ; re both like Asian Amer--" ; He was from a completely different place, like half-Japanese, half-Chinese, from Hawaii, like v-very different. Like I don' ; t think a direct connection to the incarceration. But the person who was teaching that class was, I think it was a class about Japanese American incarceration specifically, I think. Yeah, it wasn' ; t an intro class. But the person who was teaching it was Dr. Tetsuden Kashima. Yeah, and I had no idea who this guy was, but I' ; ve come to realize now, through the work that I do, he' ; s like a big shot! You know? And he was like relentless on me specifically. I was like, " ; Is this, is this allowed? Like can you do this as like a professor?" ; He was like, " ; No. Whatever you' ; re doing, don' ; t do that project. Do this project." ; And he, and he made me like interview my grandfather ' ; cause he found out that my grandfather' ; s father had been picked up by the FBI. And he was like, and I think, at that time, he was doing a lot of work around that particular part of the history. And so he was like, " ; Go back. Like you cannot do any project, but this project. Here, here' ; s your project." ; You know? And like I was like, " ; All these other people aren' ; t doing anything. They' ; re just doing like, you know like two page papers." ; And I was like pushing back really hard. I didn' ; t understand why he was pushing me so, so hard to do this project. And he had me interview Ben Chikaraishi about his grandfather. And so I learned a lot about the Department of Justice camps, and kind of the difference between those and the internment camps. And I think that was an-another like one of those milestone moments, like very specific towards the incarceration story, that it was a, a pivot to be like, " ; Okay, this is, yeah this is like, it' ; s even within, like, the history is even within my own family." ; Like, " ; This guy is super interested in this particular thing, like why is he so interested? And why is he making my life so much harder? Like I thought this was just a random elective that I was going to take to like get more credits." ; You know? And that was, that was still my mentality, even like in college, at that time it wasn' ; t like an important thing to me to be like, I need to learn, learn about my family history, I need to learn about all this stuff, I need to understand what happened to Japanese Americans, like none of that was like really like right in front of me or like driving me to kind of like learn that. Yeah. So, you know I think then like for me like, from an identity perspective, I was like very much, I think, from the time that my father, my dad was like, " ; Hey, like why you have all this Japanese stuff in your room?" ; Like from that moment, to going to college, specifically because I wanted to be more involved or like surrounded by an Asian American community. And it was funny, I remember like the first few years I would like hang out with these people that were like really into like, I don' ; t know, I don' ; t want to like categorize things, but like you know very like I don' ; t know like shooting pool and going to like cool dance clubs and like driving like really fast, fancy cars, like... And I was like, " ; This, I don' ; t know, this, this, is this what being Asian is, like this feels really weird to me." ; You know? So like I was always on this like kind of, I think, without knowing it, on some kind of identity search, and so I... I was like, I started like dating some girl from, from Japan, you know? And I went, I went to live in Japan for a year during college to like, you know like, this doesn' ; t like... " ; Seattle feels different and cool, and there' ; s more Asians, but like it' ; s not... I don' ; t know, it' ; s not me." ; You know? So I was like, " ; Maybe I need to go back to Japan." ; So like you know, my junior year I, I like, I went to Tokyo and, and studied abroad for two years.. --or sorry, for one year, and I think it was like one more chapter in trying to figure out who I was, right? Like, maybe if I go here and just like invest in it, just you know completely like submerge myself in the culture, and the language, and the people, and the food, and you know everything, right? Like maybe that would, will make me feel more comfortable. And that was great, you know I felt like I learned a little bit about like, some of my family, like my grandparents and some of their like intricacies and ticks, you know? Like oh yeah, that' ; s, that feels familiar, like all these different things. But like, I mean culturally it was like a complete-- It was like, if you came here to, to feel more comfortable, I think the end result was that you realized that you are something completely different. You are, you' ; re very, very American, and you think differently, and you act differently, and you live differently, and you even dress differently, and you, you know, everything about you is different. But you know like another like checkbox in like the ' ; Jason Matsumoto journey of self-identity' ; right? You know, I, I joined clubs like the shamisen, like the, the traditional music club, you know shamisen, koto, fue, stuff like that, and I met my family out there. I got to speak to my... So, I had mentioned earlier that my grandfather on my mom' ; s side, yeah, my grandfather on my mom' ; s side, his brother was left in Japan, in Hiroshima, and when I was living in Japan his wife was still living, so I got to speak to her. And like, at that point it was like maybe nine to ten months into my trip to Japan, and so my Japanese was pretty decent so I could actually have a conversation with her. And she told me about... They lived in this valley in Hiroshima, and they, they lived kind of like-- Sorry, Hiroshima is a valley and they, they lived a little bit further away from like the city center, and so when the city center was bombed, you know with the nuclear bomb, basically every single person who wasn' ; t dead or like, had skin just melting off their bones, became nurses and like housing for those people who were just like directly attacked. And so she, she painted this picture for me, not that she was trying to, we were just having a conversation about what it was like to be in Hiroshima during that bombing, and it was like an, it was such an unreal moment to listen to this woman, who I assume was maybe like a few years older than my grandfather, to kind of know a little bit about his experience, but then to hear about what she had to go through during the war, right? Like literally, she would, she was saying that they were just truckloads of people being... you know ' ; cause she wasn' ; t directly affected by like the impact, of course, I' ; m sure like radiation has like you know affected her, but at that time she was still healthy and could, and could do things, and there was just these bodies that would be pulled into their house with like skin just like literally melting off their face and their bones, and they were trying to figure out how to just, just take care of these people. You know? And so it was just this unreal moment to like sit there and talk to somebody who' ; s my family, right? Who sat in a, in a position to like see what was happening on the other side of the war. Yeah. So that was kind of an unreal moment, and I think, again, just like a, just like a, just like a milestone in like understanding like, the, the, the family' ; s history. Anna Takada: Thank you for sharing all that. So, another thing that I wanted to be sure to talk to you about, or talk to you about was, you know, of course as far as your personal career you made a big shift in, you know the field you' ; re involved in. But I' ; m wondering if you can just share with me a little bit, just for context, maybe like what you had been doing professionally, what the shift was, explaining the shift, and, and then maybe getting into some of the reasons why you made that decision. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Yeah, when I got back to Chicago after college I-- Anna Takada: What year was that? Jason Matsumoto: That was, I guess it was 2005? Or ' ; 06. Yeah, 2005 or ' ; 06. I actually played, I spent a year like living at my parents' ; house and playing with Tsukasa Taiko for a little while, and trying to like make that-- trying to figure out how to make that like work by only playing taiko. And I think I was just like, way too naive and didn' ; t understand how to like, you know, structure a day, and like do, and like you know, create opportunities that were not like... that were more freelance, you know? That I think artists who are starting out have to figure out. So I went like, you know, I think in a lot of ways I was, I was pushed, not, not pushed, but there was, there was like, there was some, I, I wouldn' ; t call it pressure, but there was like some... Success, like in a way, looked like a certain path, right? For me. And I went to business school, and so I, I' ; ve, I always felt like I need to figure out how to like work in corporate America, and like do that, and that' ; s, that' ; s the thing I' ; m going to do. And my father, was like, you know he made it very high up in corporate America, became like a CIO of a company, right? So like there was like a model for that. And so I went into like the financial field, and I spent like a good decade, kind of floating around and doing things in like the financial derivative sector at places like the Chicago Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. And yeah, I, I did that, and I like, I, I worked my ass off, and like you know, tried really hard and, and you know got like to a, a very decent level for like what, for like, the time I had spent, you know doing that work. And just, I think in a way I like, proved to myself that, like, " ; Oh yeah, okay, this is like, this isn' ; t that like, this is doable." ; You know? And, but there was like always something kind of like pulling at me, to like, there was something like missing, I guess, and I, it' ; s, it' ; s... And it kind of all comes back to taiko. Like I was, we were playing taiko at Ginza, right? Like the festival at the Midwest Buddhist Temple, and a friend of mine, he had, he had brought like a few of his friends to the show, and one of those friends was this guy named Eugene Park, and he was a filmmaker working in like kind of like experimental film specifically around Asian American identity. And we finished that show at like, on the Ginza stage, and Eugene came back and was like, " ; Hey, you know I' ; m doing this experimental film, it' ; s about this thing," ; which was Asian American identity, like what it means to be American and the experiences of that when you' ; re not white, and he was like, " ; I' ; m looking for some music that' ; s like, kind of blends this idea between like you know like maybe s-some semblance of like, traditional music, or like a lineage to a different culture, but then also like how do you meld and, and create like a new sound from that?" ; And so he asked me to do the soundtrack for the film, and we did that project, and then once we finished that he was like, " ; I' ; ve got this script, you know, it' ; s a script about this Japanese American guy who owns a store and then has to..." ; Or no, it was a different script, but it was, it was, it was effectively the, it was " ; The Orange Story" ; in like a very early format, and it was about the incarceration. And he just said, " ; You know I' ; ve, I tried to launch this project here in, in, in Chicago but I just don' ; t have any connection to the community, would you come on board and kind of help me figure out how to like engage with the community that you' ; re a part of?" ; And it was really attractive to me. So, so I was still working at the time, and I-- At, in, at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, but we started working on this project together, and it, it, it grew into something that was much bigger. We got the funding from the National Park Service grant that moved the film from like a $5,000 project that was like funded by all of our parents, to a $200,000 project that now had like this whole educational component to it, and it had like a whole like academic team to it. And so I credit that, you know like, my meeting Eugene and kind of like what his artistic vision was, and then also like, us working on this, this project, which became " ; The Orange Story" ; , I credit that as like kind of the seedling to what eventually became like what I' ; m doing today, right? So maybe like three or four years after that project I had been taking all my days, all my vacation days from the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, to either go play taiko, or to go out and like present the film, you know somewhere around the country, and I was like, " ; Wow, this is, this is like a very viable option, and it feels really good, you know?" ; Despite like the money being very, very different and like the lifestyle being very different. And it took me two years to kind of like, think through that. I think when you' ; re on a particular track, right, especially when you get kind of like deep into the weeds of like corporate America, it' ; s, it' ; s really difficult to, to figure out how to separate yourself. It' ; s very good at like, it' ; s a very good mousetrap, right? Like the benefits, and like the li-- and you know, all these different things. And it took me a long time, but in 20, was it 2017? In 2017, in the summer of 2017, I left that, you know the financial derivative world and path, and then just completely cut over to start like putting all my time into things like building this film company. That' ; s... It' ; s a nonprofit, and it' ; s, it' ; s based, it' ; s mission is to increase diversity and awareness around these untold stories from different communities, the Japanese American story being one of them. And I think in a way like, the, " ; The Orange Story" ; , and then these other projects that we' ; re doing around the Japanese American community, really inform what the mission and model of the, of the company is, because we' ; re trying to create narrative films that might not have like you know, star power, or might not like, end up in Hollywood, but create in some way some empathic understanding and some emotional understanding of somebody else' ; s story, and then combining that with the right set of academics and educators and curriculum developers to try, try to leverage the platform of like popular media to educate people about whatever it is, social change, or communities of color, or history that' ; s, that' ; s untold. Anna Takada: Quickly, what year was the, what year did you meet Eugene, and what year was " ; The Orange Story" ; project completed? Jason Matsumoto: I' ; m probably going to get this wrong, but I think 2013 was the year I met Eugene. We finished " ; The Orange Story" ; project in 2016, I think we probably started it like late-- early 2015, and then we finished it like late 2016. Yeah, ' ; cause then we went out and we did the tour with it on the 75th anniversary of EO 9066, which was 2017. Yeah. Anna Takada: So that, I mean like you, you mentioned it was quite a drastic change to go from working in finance and to... I mean here, you know for the sake of this interview focus on Full Spectrum, but... Yeah, you mentioned that it, you know it felt good to be doing taiko and to be working on these Full Spectrum projects. Can you say a little bit more about you know why you were, why you eventually got to that decision? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I mean I think, so I think like when I look back there' ; s, there' ; s... Part of like the, the self identity discovery is like really trying to understand or like figure out what your individual values are, you know? And I think for a long time, especially when you' ; re in like finance and when you' ; re in trading, it' ; s very easy to get caught up into like, the goal here is to make money, that' ; s the goal. Like there' ; s, there' ; s nothing beyond that, right? Like, to be good at that, in that profession, it' ; s, it' ; s about figuring out how to make the most money, whether that' ; s in your salary, or whether that' ; s if, if you' ; re a trader that' ; s like, that' ; s the goal, right? And so like as, you know I think as I became more invested in doing this parallel path of like pushing this film out, which was " ; The Orange Story" ; , but still working at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, I would like go on these weekend trips to have these deep discussions about history and identity, and why, why the Japanese American incarceration matters today, and what' ; s happening politically, what' ; s happening socially, and then coming back into this world where-- Of like, of like high finance where you felt none of those things really mattered, right? Like nobody really cared about any of those things at the end of the day, right? I mean, I' ; m, I' ; m blanketing a whole company, so I know like there' ; s individuals in that company that, that are good people, and I still talk to them and I do care, but on the whole, right, like the deci-- the decisions they make are very economic. And I remember after the 2016 election there was like a number of things right, like everybody' ; s talking about, like we need diversity and inclusion at, at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and I got really invested in working with this guy who was like, who was... He was like a big Black man working at CME, which is very rare, and he w-- and we would sit there, and we got put on a team together, and it was, it was one of the best things that happened ' ; cause we' ; d just sit there and talk about what the experiences were like, you know? Not being white and working in this place. And he was doing this project where he was mapping all of the senior leadership against like a, a race and, and identity chart, and we were doing percentages and like, you know what that looked like. And he was, and then we were talking to the D& ; I folks, the, the " ; Diversity and Inclusion" ; , I put that in quotes, right? People at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and so many of their policies were like just completely like empty, and, and you know it just felt like a very corporate style of like checking the box to ensure that you' ; re good, you know like your brand image is good. And then I remember things like the, Trump' ; s immigration policy at the very outset of his administration. There were people on my team, there were people like on teams that I was on that were from those countries that were like stuck and couldn' ; t get back to work, and I was, I was good friends with people in Communications, and I was, I was, fairly high people, and I would like email them and say, " ; Hey, what are we doing about this? What are you going to do about this? Like are we, are we taking any kind of stance?" ; And they' ; re like, " ; No, we can' ; t do anything at this time." ; You know and it, it, it comes from a different place, right? Like it' ; s not their fault, it' ; s the board of directors and all these different institutions that, that are making these high level decisions. But you got to imagine, like I' ; m, I' ; m going through this stuff and listening to these answers, or like watching this stuff happen to humans you know, Monday through Friday. And then on like Saturday, Sunday I' ; m like flying to someplace to talk deeply about you know these, these things that I guess are more aligned with my own values, right? So that, that really started to kind of like tip the balance for me, and it made me, I think, expedite how I was thinking about, like, " ; Can I leave and still live? Or can I, can I leave and what' ; s going to happen to my 401k?" ; You know like all these different things about, " ; Will I personally survive?" ; became a little bit less important to-- and, and like maybe secondary to like, " ; Well what does it mean to continue to work here?" ; I don' ; t feel like, like when I look back I don' ; t feel like it' ; s much different, what, what I' ; m doing today versus there, like, I still really value the time there. Like I, I tell people all the time like, the number one skill I got working at, you know working in like a really kind of like high pressure, high stress environment of like finances, you know you walk in, you have to continuously walk into rooms full of very rich, very powerful white men, and then you have to walk out, as like a small Asian American person with what you want, and that skill goes a very long way no matter where you are. And, and I, I think when you compare the film industry to the financial industry, it' ; s, there' ; s a lot of parallels to like who has power and who has position and who has these different like decision rights, and also who has the money to fund these things. So, in a, in a strange way like I think five-- four and a half years into building this film company, those skills that I built you know like in 10 years of finance are coming in very handy to what we' ; re trying to do to like break down these barriers in the film industry. So I wouldn' ; t trade it for anything, and I think it' ; s like one of those things, it' ; s like, you just, it, it, it kind of like continues to go back to this identity thing where it' ; s like that was what I wanted to do, right? I wanted to work in a company and that' ; s what felt successful to me, you know? And I wanted like a certain lifestyle. But once I realized, like, I think once my values caught up, like my true values caught up and were like and were brought like more to the forefront through the work that I was doing with " ; The Orange Story" ; and, and through Full Spectrum, that helped to shape kind of my, my worldview and thinking today. And then now I' ; ll just say like, this podcast, " ; Seeing White" ; , c-changed it all! (laughs) Has completely shifted, like once again, like my worldview. And that' ; s like, it' ; s a joke, but I think that that' ; s like, I was very naive and I was very like, immature in the way I thought of the world, even like as a 35-year old, 34-year old, and I' ; m, I, I still feel that way. But I think once you' ; re introduced to the work that Full Spectrum' ; s doing, and the work that you' ; re doing, and the work that we' ; re collectively as a community doing, and you get deeper and deeper and deeper into that work, like, things start to shift in the way that you kind of understand the world, and I think that at least today, like the activities, like the, the places where I spend my time are much better aligned with what I believe in as a, as a, as a human. Anna Takada: Um...(tape cut) Jason Matsumoto: Effectively giving us a roadmap for the mistakes we' ; ve made in the past, and they' ; re very clear. Like I think when you look at things like the Japanese American incarceration, and you, and you, and you boil things down to like the very base of what was happening, right, it was economic anxiety and it was racism. And I go back to the story of my grandfather getting on that bus, like that' ; s how we structure our world, right? We understand our world through a series of very simplistic things, and it, it, it just continues to happen in, in every community' ; s history. You know like I, I joke about saying like white Americans, but like even within whiteness there' ; s like ethnic whiteness, and, and, and we' ; re using some, some characteristic of some person that' ; s completely arbitrary to make a decision about what should happen to them, or like what they should have access to. And history is important because you can see that pattern happen over and over and over again, and there' ; s ways to change that trajectory, but I think without engaging in those stories, that, that, where there' ; s like deep humanity, right, and real impacts to those decisions that are based on characteristics that might be arbitrary, if you don' ; t understand those, and you don' ; t follow through the kind of like the line of, of that impact on somebody' ; s life, the trauma, the access, their social mobility, right, then you can' ; t understand and you can' ; t fix those things. And I think that' ; s, that' ; s the essence of why historians care so much about history, and it' ; s the essence of why I now go to history conferences to, to present " ; The Orange Story" ; and talk about how we' ; re using this educational model, and you know shooting films about like historical moments that, that, that matter. That' ; s why me, Jason Matsumoto, who has never, like that has, like didn' ; t study history, you know business school, like not, not really engaged with even my own personal history, that' ; s why I' ; m going out now and talking about this stuff. Maria Pimentel: Can I ask something really quick? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. Maria Pimentel: Why do you think that as a filmmaker, like a filmmaker, you-- and I' ; m including us, we' ; re able to tell these stories now, and maybe in a way that weren' ; t told before, why do you think that, from a perspective that' ; s, you' ; ve been in the business and doing this now, why do you think that now it' ; s-- Perhaps you know like there are more opportunities to see stories like the ones we' ; re doing, do our work, and then our documentary, and even having more people telling us their individual stories. Jason Matsumoto: I' ; m, I mean I, you know I think it' ; s, so I think there' ; s an opportunity to tell these stories, and there' ; s an appetite and interest to tell these stories because of like the larger political factors that, that dictate what' ; s happening in our world, right? Like there' ; s, there' ; s like, just at the broadest level there' ; s, there' ; s moves towards you know, authoritarianism, and there' ; s moves towards just continuing to bucket and make decisions about people and communities like at a very broad level like in the exact same way that that, that happened to Black people prior to civil rights, that happened to gay people and, and you know people from the LGBTQ community before there was any you know advocacy for that, right, to the Japanese Americans. And so, in a strange way, right like, the movement that, that is Donald Trump, and the movement that is, you know, Nigel Forage in the UK, and the movement that, that' ; s happening in like places like Hungary, like all that stuff forces everybody else to, to, to want to engage, and to-- Because you want to understand what' ; s happening. You know, and I think, I think the, the challenge for us, like as media makers, or people who are trying to, you know talk about our values as humans, and spread those values, is to figure out how to responsibly engage as many people as possible, especially people who disagree. That' ; s the challenge, right? Is, is-- because you can dig in and you can tell the same people that already agree with you over and over and over what you think the right thing to do is, through whatever kind of medium you' ; re doing, whether it' ; s an oral history, or whether it' ; s a documentary, or whether it' ; s a narrative film, or whether, whether it' ; s a podcast, but it doesn' ; t do anything unless you' ; re having, you' ; re opening up a conversation and having that conversation with people who like might disagree, or, or might have a different opinion. And I think that' ; s, that' ; s where I kind of like bang my head against the wall all the time to figure out like what, what can you do like responsibly, and what can you do in a way that will engage somebody like that? Anna Takada: I just want to mention, we, we' ; re getting to be at time, however there' ; s still a few things that I wanted to ask you. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, sure. Anna Takada: So if that' ; s cool. So one thing that I want to be sure to ask is, so you know, I know that through... One of your current projects at Full Spectrum, you all are working on a narrative film about the resettlement experience of Japanese Americans in Chicago. Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm. Anna Takada: Can you explain why that particular story was something that you guys wanted to, to highlight and you know base this whole project around? Why, why resettlement? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I mean I think, so for me personally resettlement is important because it, it dictates the reason that I' ; m like, live, live in Chicago and I' ; m here, not dictates, but is, is kind of the factor, right? Like, all of my family choosing to resettle in Chicago, for whatever reason that was, is the reason that I' ; m here, and I think that like, I think fundamentally that' ; s, that' ; s very important to me personally. To the larger community, and to this, and to the narrative of the incarceration, I think we have, there' ; s many different levels to educating people about this history, right? One is that some people just don' ; t even know it happened or existed, the whole thing, so there' ; s like a level in which you need to educate people about that. But then there' ; s a deeper level where you want to expose and really offer the opportunity to, to learn and understand about every nuance and every moment in that history and Chicago resettlement or resettlement in general is, I think, an understudied component or chapter in that story of Japanese American incarceration. The more I' ; ve learned about it, the more I' ; ve realized that in a lot of ways, you know, I think losing all of your possessions at the outset of the incarceration, your land and your property was incredibly difficult. I mean, no part is not hard right? Living in a bar-- or a horse stall or a barrack. That' ; s not easy to do. But people who I' ; ve spoken to who went through that talk about how resettlement, like, you' ; re poor, you have nothing, right? And then you' ; re in a new city, you have no connections outside of the own, your own community and you' ; re being told not to create community. Like, in a lot of ways, people say that that' ; s, that was the hardest part, right? And so we' ; re studying, there' ; s so much history about kind of, the beginnings of, of the removal and what, what happened inside of these camps, but there' ; s not anything about... I' ; m not going to say that, there' ; s not anything. There' ; s, there' ; s less about what it was like to resettle, the struggles and the challenges, the economic factors, the, like institutional oppression and racism that they were facing now that they' ; re free again, right? I think the assimilation that was kind of being impressed upon them, like all these factors I think, in a way, create trauma. And I don' ; t think that people have had a chance within the community to really have a discussion or like a, or, have had a, an opportunity to, to kind of think about that and talk about that, and you know I think it, it plays out in the fact that our Nisei grandparents didn' ; t talk about this to our Sansei parents, which in turn didn' ; t talk about this to me and like my Yonsei counterparts, right? And I think all that has to do with, of course, the shame and like, you know whatever' ; s tied up, whatever emotions and feelings are tied up in the whole experience, even though that' ; s, you know we know that it, it was put upon them, there' ; s a way in which the resettlement part of this story can become like a very like freeing or kind of opening moment for, for the community, and so I think both like, getting that story out there for the people who went through it and getting that story out there, for the people who don' ; t know anything about this, equally important. Anna Takada: And in what ways... So I know that you' ; ve, you' ; ve also, you mentioned that you' ; ve been doing research on this particular historical moment within our community. In what ways do you, do you think that, this process of resettlement impacted, shaped, changed the community here in Chicago? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, that' ; s, that' ; s a really good question. I don' ; t, you know, I think... I' ; ve heard statistics that like, there' ; s more interracial marriage of like primarily like Japanese American women marrying white men in Chicago than, than an-, than anywhere else. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know if, like I haven' ; t studied like you know the numbers or the trends, but I do think that there was, there was less of a concentration of Japanese Americans here than like that, that ended up going back to the West Coast. And I think that probably has an impact on like how close we are to our like cultural identity and going all the way back to Japan, like the language, the food, the, the general culture. And I don' ; t know. I mean I think, I think... Yeah, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Maybe if I' ; m re-- I' ; m thinking about reframing the question. I guess to think about it from a more personal perspective. Like do you, as a Yonsei who grew up in Chicago or the Chicagoland area, like if you, from what you know about resettlement and your family' ; s experiences, do you think there are any ways that like resettlement or maybe the legacy of it has like impacted or informed your own life at all? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah... Anna Takada: I know it' ; s a big question. Jason Matsumoto: No, I think... So... and these are all assumptions ' ; cause I' ; ve never spoken to my family about this, but I think there was a lot of like deep value in, in... Like so my father, for example, like, there were moments like when we were growing up where we' ; d be at the dinner table and I could tell my mom would be pissed off about something that happened at m-, at, at work for my dad, ' ; cause he told the story. And one of the phrases that I used to like hear a lot was like oh it' ; s just, like my dad would say, " ; Oh, but it' ; s, it' ; s fine. It' ; s just an old boys club." ; You know? And he was talking about things like, things that would happen to him at work, right? And he was like, especially as you moved up, right, I think you could see these like different structures of oppression and racism happening in these like massive corporations. But I always felt like the value of what it meant to be successful for my family at least, was you know, to move to the suburbs, to have, to have a nice house, and to have two cars and to work in a place like a, a massive corporation that, that you know like, you can continually move up in. And like, you know effectively it' ; s like the American dream, right? Like middle class family values, right? Like, and I think that, that in a way, like we lived in Wilmette, like we were the only, one of the only Asian American families there, and like I think not seeing other people that were like me, not engaging in like a deeper way in the community outside of just going to the temple once a week, all that stuff has an impact because you, I, I think as a, as a per-- we want to engage with communities that have shared, shared experiences and shared values. And something like the incarceration, I think, creates that maybe in an, in an artificial way, but it, it certainly creates that, that like type of shared experience that everybody has, right? And so there' ; s a, there' ; s maybe a need to engage with those communities to, to heal or whatever, right? And, but I think there, that like, in a way like, assimilating towards like white middle class culture brought us out of that, like brought, brought our family out of that as like maybe... I don' ; t know like maybe in places like Los Angeles or places where there' ; s like a much stronger community with like a physical presence they, they might have had, right? And I think that' ; s completely dependent on your individual family ' ; cause I know that there' ; s families in Chicago that did engage that way, but I' ; ve never spoken to my parents about that. But I, you know like even today, like as there' ; s, like even my mom who' ; s become like much more... Like she went to a rally, you know? Like the, the Women' ; s March. And it was, it was amazing to see. Like I never thought my mom would do something like that. But like even her and like the conversations that we' ; re having these days, are, they' ; re more willing to question the structures that are around them, like specifically like what it means to live in Wilmette, what it meant to move there, what it meant to like build a house there, what it meant to work in a structure that was like the, the, the old boys club, right? Like, they' ; re more willing to have those conversations. And even like I, you know I just learned that like my dad was like a long-haired freaking you know, like anti-war, like, never saw that side of him. Right? Like you just wonder like what, what caused him to like never talk to me about those kind of things. You know he was at that JASC Convention where that, that woman was killed you know? Like never, I' ; ve, I' ; ve never heard any of these. Or sorry, the, the JACL Convention where that woman was killed in Chicago, right? He was at that and like he was, he was like on the front lines of the, these like different movements. Like we never talked about that stuff, and you know, I don' ; t know if that' ; s like from like, an, an assimilationist pressure? And I think it' ; s really hard to like look at your own life and be like, " ; Yeah, that' ; s the thing. That government policy is the thing that caused me to like, you know X, Y, Z." ; ' ; Cause it feels like you don' ; t, then it feels like you don' ; t have like, like any control over like what, the decisions you made. So it was, I think it' ; s really hard to look back like, when you' ; re so close to it to be like, " ; That' ; s the thing that caused our family to do X." ; But if I like, if you sit down and you just like kind of stew over it for a little while, like, and then like I think Lisa Doi' ; s work, right, about like showing how there was such an intentional idea behind the process of resettlement. Right? All those things kind of like start to kind of, I don' ; t know, come together in a way that makes you question you know, how much autonomy you have or, or even if it was your own decision to do something, how much, how much of it was like you know, part of like a larger thing that was happening? And that' ; s like scary to think about. Anna Takada: Just a, a couple of questions before wrapping up. If you were to briefly describe the Japanese American community in Chicago, how would you describe it for someone who isn' ; t familiar. Jason Matsumoto: Well, I just came back, like, this weekend, I went to a Knu Basic' ; s rehearsal and it was like, it was kind of amazing to see like, just four Sansei sitting in some guy' ; s basement, like practicing, you know sixties, seventies rock. So I feel like, you know that kind of stuff creates a really v- like it, that' ; s, that-- Those kind of things are happening like in small pockets in different places. And I think we have something very special in Chicago. I think that there' ; s these kind of like institutions that have survived for 70 to 75 years that are pillars of our community. And without them, I don' ; t know if the work that you' ; re doing or the, or the work that I' ; m doing is possible. And so I have a lot of reverence for like the difficulties and the challenges of you know like, our community that have like stayed the course, no matter how hard it was, no matter how much like, outer fighting or infighting there was, like these places still exist. And there' ; s like a really vibrant like you know, 18 to 30 year old community that' ; s like, building. And so, you know I think it' ; s, it' ; s, we' ; re getting a lot better at building inclusion into these institutions. And I think we' ; re getting a lot better at spreading the ways that people can become involved, maybe without being part of an, a, a historic institution. I think that' ; s incredibly important, but we' ; re on like a really, really, really good path. And so to me, like, maybe you know, some of the physical buildings and you know like Clark Street or like Clark and Division or you know, Lincoln Park is no longer like, primarily Japanese American. But the conversations that I have with people who are doing work in this community and you know things like, you know like just ' ; cause top of mind, like the Knu Basic rehearsal is like such an amazing example of the resilience. And I think in a way it' ; s not even resilience. Like there' ; s, there' ; s enough of a diversity of events and opportunities and people that it' ; s like there' ; s like joy behind those things that, that are, that are happening and like real will to want to do them. And it' ; s not like, " ; I have to do this because it' ; s my legacy." ; You know, I think that there' ; s a lot of that, which is very important. But I think that people are driven by like, more positive reasons to do things. And that, I think, is the fabric of like a really positive, strong, and hopeful community. Anna Takada: You mentioned the, the work of, you say, young people in the community that that' ; s very strong right now. Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm. Anna Takada: Why do you think that is? Jason Matsumoto: So I think in a lot of ways it' ; s... You know I don' ; t know like a lot of history about how leadership has passed on, but I' ; ve heard stories about how... And maybe this comes back again to you know to our, to like this discussion about what impacts, like what like systemic or uncontrollable things impact the way that a community continues to build itself, right? One thing I' ; ve heard is that there was a, there was a, a huge challenge for like the Nisei to pass leadership onto the Sansei, but one difference that I see in the Sansei, not all the Sansei, but many Sansei passing leadership on to Yonsei, is that it' ; s happening in a real and genuine way. And it' ; s happening much earlier than I think it happened for the Nisei into the Sansei. And that to me, like these partnerships or like you know, joint programming or joint leadership, it' ; s, it' ; s passing on knowledge, it' ; s passing on like... It' ; s passing on knowledge and it' ; s passing on history and legacy, but it' ; s also, it' ; s also being open to the knowledge and legacy of younger people, which I think is like, it' ; s the only way to build good teams right? Is to truly value everybody' ; s input. And, I think that' ; s a big factor in the way that even like outside of Chicago, right, like we' ; ve heard you know how people from places that have like really large Japanese American communities are looking to Chicago to be like, w- how like, " ; What' ; s the secret sauce?" ; You know? And I think it' ; s, of course, it' ; s like, you know these, these, these development programs that are at these different institutions that have been the pillars of our community, like the Kansha project, right? Of course it' ; s things like that, that are like finding the next generations to actually engage in these conversations, but I think it' ; s also really important for like genuinely and, and truly valuing in both directions right? From like the generation above you to the generation below you like thinking of that as very, as a very flat hierarchy and taking, taking cues from both sides to, to build something new. And that, I think, is like maybe what I feel is different or is just not different, but is working very well in Chicago. Anna Takada: And I promise just one or two more questions. Jason Matsumoto: Yeah, I got time. (Cut) A few things. One thing is I think there' ; s relationships that need to be built and preserved or discovered. Right, so like the work that the JASC is doing, for example, in engaging with Shin-Nikkei and you know, post-war Japanese immigrants, right? The work that the JACL and the JASC do around engaging with other communities of color, like just continuing to expand our impact and our reach beyond our, our kind of like, historic you know, incarceration story. Legacy, I think is super important. And then I think finally just, just really thinking about what, how to marry all that with like, you know honoring the people that went through so much stuff to get us here. Right? Like, those are very different constituents and they can all, like there' ; s a way in which every single one of those constituents can be served in a very meaningful way. And I think it comes to being open-minded and I think it comes to being creative, right? In the way that we engage in the story, honor the legacy, and think about its impact beyond you know, our families. Anna Takada: And so you- Jason Matsumoto: And also more like, you know, more like ramen shops and like more like you know physical spaces, right? Like land ownership, like you know, having some stake in, in like real development of a community that, that maybe looks like a physical space or maybe looks like a street, you know? Or maybe looks like, I don' ; t know, something that, something that like reclaims you know like what we used to own or have in this city. Yeah. (Laughs) That was awesome. Just, just for the camera, she just spit her Halls into the garbage can. That was that noise. (Laughs) Anna Takada: We' ; re going to edit it out. So one question I like to ask, in wrapping up these oral histories is if you could leave behind some kind of message or legacy, doesn' ; t necessarily have to be for the community, but just you know, for future generations, what' ; s, what' ; s something that you, Jason Matsumoto, want to leave behind? Jason Matsumoto: Yeah. That is... yeah. I think, so it took me a long time to figure out what it means to like align my values with the time I spend like living in this world. And I don' ; t think like, nobody should force themselves to like, to just constantly think about that. But I think the way that I' ; ve gotten there is to basically, like I think there' ; s a philosophy in just trying to put yourself in situations that make you feel uncomfortable, and I, I don' ; t think I would' ; ve gotten to this place where like I, I really feel like the time I spend like, in my awake hours are aligned with what I care about. I don' ; t think I would' ; ve gotten to that place without putting myself like over and over and over again in situations that make me feel really uncomfortable and then having to figure out how to, how to exist in those spaces. And so there' ; s no way to expedite that process for any single person. You might have to work for 10 years in corporate America, or you might have to, you know do something that, that doesn' ; t feel right, but if you can think about that concept of, of comfort and discomfort and what it can do to your like personal development, I think that' ; s one way that can help everybody more closely align their values with you know, the way they spend their time. Anna Takada: I do have one more question before totally wrapping up. Jason Matsumoto: Mhmm. Anna Takada: What... I guess, what, what does the, the Japanese American, or Nikkei community of Chicago, what does that mean to you? Why is that important to you? I' ; m assuming, I' ; m assuming it is because I know you. Jason Matsumoto: I think there' ; s... Sorry. The Nikkei community is important to me, I think, one: because of the legacy of my own family, and two: because the legacy of what people had to go through to allow us to even be sitting here and talking about this community. And the fact that it, it still exists, it' ; s, it' ; s really amazing to me. And I think this, this story, right? You can kind of like put the same concept onto many different communities across the world and you know, in the United States, and it, it' ; s like, our, our path creates a lot of like hope for me personally because, because of the fact that you can take something so terrible and you can get through that and you can come out the other side. Not everybody, right? Like there' ; s there' ; s people who have come out of this, the other side not very well and they' ; re part of the story too. But the fact that we can still talk about these things and, and talk about our history in a meaningful way to help other people, I think that' ; s why the, the community is important to me. And when I think of the Nikkei community, I, you know it' ; s, it' ; s this fascinating thing where like, what does it mean to, like for example, at the Midwest Buddhist Temple, what does it mean to build and continue to honor and like have reverence for you know, the people that founded that place, the people that went through every single you know challenge and, and roadblock to get that thing built and then people to keep it running? You can say that for every single institution right? And every, every component of our community. What does it mean today like in 2019 and how do you, how do you create inclusion where the history and legacy of, of those places and things will always remain to be understood and they' ; re spaces that are like sacred and important and continue to be sacred and important to those who like risked their lives or maybe, maybe in some cases gave their lives to create those things, how do you blend that with like a much different looking community, right? And I think that' ; s like, if we can get that right, that' ; s, that' ; s what I think is like the future of the community. If, if we can figure that out and learn how to be inclusive and at the same time express the importance of, of why we continue to talk about 75 years ago and have people come together you know without feeling alienated, that' ; s, that' ; s to me like that' ; s the future of what we' ; re doing. Anna Takada: Well thank you so much again for taking the time to, to share with us. Before we completely wrap up, are there any last things you' ; d like to add or anything that I might have missed in this conversation? Jason Matsumoto: Just one thing, I think. I think, because I came into this so late, you know like you just mentioned to me that not many Yonsei have a, as much understanding of their own history. But I think that' ; s, for me personally, that' ; s like a big, maybe barrier or roadblock and you know, a personal hope and dream of mine is to like, like in a, in a very meaningfu-- like I guess in a very genuine way, try to do that research and history for like... This interview made me realize that I don' ; t know enough of like, I don' ; t know enough about like, not just like the dates and the locations, but like what were people doing and what were their lives like? And I think I' ; ve avoided that because I can ' ; cause the work I' ; m doing is like more general and I can talk to people that are not my family about this history and still get like a sense of what was happening, but I think this interview' ; s made me realize that like I want to do that, you know like for my own family, so thank you. Anna Takada: Thank you so much again. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MatsumotoJason20190910.xml MatsumotoJason20190910.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Sort Priority
4800
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MatsumotoJason20190910.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Matsumoto, Jason (9/10/2019)
Description
An account of the resource
Jason Matsumoto is a yonsei born in Chicago to sansei parents who were also born in Chicago. His maternal grandparents were incarcerated at Rohwer, paternal grandmother was incarcerated at Gila River, and paternal grandfather served in the MIS. In this interview, Jason discusses his experiences growing up in Wilmette, IL, his family's involvement with the Midwest Buddhist Temple, the influence of his grandfather Ben Chikaraishi, and his interest in taiko drumming. He shares his reasons for leaving Chicago to attend college in Seattle, WA, his motivations for studying abroad in Japan, and the path that ultimately led him to become one of the founders of Full Spectrum Features, a Chicago-based nonprofit film production company. Throughout the interview, Jason reflects on his evolving sense of identity, the strengths of the Chicago Japanese American community, and the importance of aligning his work with his personal values.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-09-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Relation
A related resource
Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/11" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Chikaraishi, Ben (10/31/2017)</a>
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/c22547d0ce90e67fa0205875f4c5dfbd.png
0147050e30142103673237e596a4af6c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Morita, Yoko
Interview Keyword
Nichiren Buddhism
Portland, OR
Portland Assembly Center
Minidoka
Mud
Property Loss
Nisei
Waller High School
Skyleens
Ro Babes
Social Clubs
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Chicago Nichiren Buddhist Church
Ikebana
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/4/2018 Morita, Yoko (9/4/2018) 1:40:41 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nichiren Buddhism Portland, OR Portland Assembly Center Minidoka Mud Property Loss Nisei Waller High School Skyleens Ro Babes Social Clubs Edgewater Beach Hotel Chicago Nichiren Buddhist Church Ikebana Morita, Yoko Takada, Anna video 1:|17(5)|37(14)|53(3)|73(8)|94(4)|117(15)|135(15)|150(9)|164(8)|199(8)|214(7)|229(4)|244(8)|261(9)|274(9)|290(9)|306(16)|322(11)|337(2)|350(1)|363(5)|377(11)|400(3)|422(3)|434(14)|450(12)|463(5)|482(13)|495(2)|517(3)|532(11)|558(3)|581(7)|600(10)|618(17)|634(7)|648(7)|669(14)|687(5)|705(3)|729(4)|759(11)|771(8)|783(5)|801(8)|828(10)|849(13)|862(9)|886(14)|906(4)|924(3)|941(13)|957(11)|976(2)|994(2)|1010(13)|1026(4)|1041(2)|1060(12)|1071(12)|1083(5)|1101(8)|1114(4)|1135(9)|1155(6)|1174(10)|1184(13)|1210(4)|1222(8)|1233(14)|1246(7)|1270(6)|1290(5)|1307(8)|1324(11)|1335(15)|1347(3)|1363(1)|1381(6)|1401(6)|1412(7)|1427(6)|1445(10)|1459(8)|1471(5)|1483(10)|1502(14)|1515(2)|1526(9)|1539(1)|1555(14)|1570(1)|1583(1)|1600(5)|1615(4)|1632(7)|1643(1)|1658(6)|1670(3)|1684(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/601361744/a257afd1fb Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601361744?h=a257afd1fb" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Yoko Morita, a nisei born in Canada in 1935, discusses her family's pre-WWII movements between Vancouver, Japan, and Portland and their forced removal to Minidoka after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. After incarceration, the family returned to Portland before eventually moving to Chicago. The daughter of a Nichiren Buddhist priest, she shares memories of life in Minidoka and of the Japanese American community in Portland in the immediate postwar era, particularly the social events that took place in her father's temple. She also recounts her arrival in Chicago as a teenager in 1951, including her participation in a girls club, the Chicago nisei social scene, experiences at Waller High School, and employment at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. Also notable are her memories of assisting her mother, the founder of the Mishokai ikebana school in Chicago. Having lived in many places as an adult, including Japan, Florida, and the Washington, D.C. area, she expresses an attachment to Chicago as her " ; furusato" ; or hometown. She concludes her interview by expressing a desire for future generations to know and appreciate Japanese culture. Anna Takada: Okay. This is an interview with Yoko Morita as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on September 4th, 2018 at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Yoko Morita is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? Yoko Morita: My full name is Yoko Morita, formerly Arakawa. Anna Takada: And can you tell me about where and when you were born? Yoko Morita: I was born in Vancouver, British Columbia in 1935. My father was a Buddhist priest and he had a temple in Vancouver. Anna Takada: Okay. And what, what' ; s your birthday? Yoko Morita: June 27th, 1935. Anna Takada: Okay. And, and can you tell me about where your parents were originally from? Yoko Morita: Yes. My mother was from Tokyo and my father was from Nagoya, Japan. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: But they met in Tokyo while he was at University tra-training to be a priest. Anna Takada: Okay. And what kind of priest was he training to be? Yoko Morita: My father was a Nichiren Buddhist priest and we had a temple here in Chicago... Well, we, he started in Vancouver and then he went back a year for training, more training. And we came back. When we came back to North America, he was assigned to Portland, Oregon in 1939. And so then of course the war began in ' ; 41 and we all were sent to Minidoka. Anna Takada: And how much do you know or could you tell me about kind of your, your parents' ; backgrounds as far as their families? Yoko Morita: Sure. My father was one of six children and he was the third son. He had four brothers and two sisters. And my mother was in-- family in Tokyo and she was a family of five siblings, two brothers and three sisters. And she was the middle sister. Her family was two boys and then three girls, and she was the middle. And my father and my mother met in Tokyo while he was at Rissho University in Tokyo, which is the university that trains the priests for our temple. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And what was your mother doing at that time? Yoko Morita: I think my, I don' ; t think, well in that era, I don' ; t think she was working yet. And she was still, let' ; s see, they were married when she was in her early 20' ; s, so, she was probably still living at home with her parents. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, and so Vancouver, was that, so that was after his schooling. Was that a situation where he was assigned to go there or he decided? Yoko Morita: No, he was, he wanted to come abroad, go abroad. And so they assigned him to Vancouver. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: And it was an assignment really more than anything else. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so did your mother go with him? Yoko Morita: Well, my dad went in 1931 first by himself and they were talking about getting married. Her father said, " ; We have to get you married even in paper ' ; cause you know, neither of you may not be able to wait." ; ' ; Cause they knew he couldn' ; t come back for four years. So, they got married and I believe she stayed at home with her parents though. And he came back for her in 1935. Anna Takada: And, and then, so she joined him. Yoko Morita: Then she, they came back together. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so you were, you were born in ' ; 35. Yoko Morita: In Vancouver, British Columbia. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Did you have any siblings? Yoko Morita: I, we are a family of five and I have two sisters and two brothers. And my sis-- the next one was a sister. Her first name is Yoshiko and she was born in 1936. And then I had a brother born in 1938. His name was Hirotada. And then I had a brother born in 1940 and his name was Tadayasu. His friends here in Chicago only know him as T-bone. And then I have a sister who lives here now who was born after the war in 1949. Anna Takada: And what' ; s her name? Yoko Morita: Noriko. Anna Takada: And what are your parents' ; names? Yoko Morita: Yohaku. And my mother' ; s name is Shizue. Anna Takada: And so you were the, the eldest-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: ...Of your siblings. And so how long were you in Vancouver? Yoko Morita: We were in Vancouver until 1939 when we, he went back for additional training. We went back for a year. Anna Takada: To Japan? Yoko Morita: Wait, wait, I' ; m sorry. 1938 and then we came back to Vancouver in 1939. Anna Takada: Okay. So do you have any, would you happen to have any memories of Vancouver or Japan? Yoko Morita: No, not really because we left Vancouver in ' ; 39 and I was only four. Anna Takada: Right. Yoko Morita: Right. I know stories. Like, several years ago I, we went to the West, my sister and I went to the West Coast to visit and we decided to go to Vancouver to see if we could find the old temple, which we couldn' ; t. But I was in contact with one of the ladies who was a member of the temple, and she said-- And we stayed with her and she took us around and she couldn' ; t remember where the temple was either, but she said, " ; I babysat you when you were a baby." ; (laughs) So, it was fun. But, I have no memory of exactly anything about Vancouver or going back to Japan. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And was it Tokyo that you went back to? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And then, so how long were you there? Yoko Morita: We were there for a, a year. We left, we went in ' ; 38 and came back in ' ; 39. Anna Takada: And I guess before I get into kind of your family' ; s trajectory of where you were living and all of that, could you share a little bit about this particular, I guess, I don' ; t know if you can call it a sect of Buddhism, Nichiren? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And, kind of what, can you describe that I guess? Yoko Morita: Well, I don' ; t know if I could compare it to any other sect, but Nichiren was founded by a priest who trained to become a priest in a different sect and found that he was not happy with it and he started studying on his own and, and then founded his own in 1282 I believe. And he founded it, but he was persecuted because he was, this particular region at that time was very nationalistic. And so he was persecuted by the government. He was sent in exile. At one point he was sentenced to be executed. And the story goes that there was a storm and the, the executioner' ; s blade broke instead of-- So they released him. And then he was basically a nationalistic and religion... A sect for more of the lower class people. It wasn' ; t for the elite and the intellectual. But, and I think, I' ; m not really sure about you know, in comparison to others, but I think Nichiren is not the largest, one of the larger ones, but it' ; s, you know it' ; s, it' ; s one of the older ones. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And is, are there any ways in which it is unique, I guess, from other sects of Buddhism, you know, more than origin story or, like whether in practice, or...? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t think so ' ; cause I don' ; t know any of the others, but you know, the shin-- I think it' ; s the Shingon that says " ; nami amida butsu" ; [" ; namu amida butsu" ; ] as their chant when they pray most of the time, and ours is " ; Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" ; . And you know, you' ; re supposed to repeat that at, in, at, at any time for whatever reason. So that' ; s, those are the only two big differences that I know. (laughs) Anna Takada: Okay, okay. Yeah. And, and thank you for sharing. It' ; s helpful to know more about... Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Okay, so in ' ; 39 you were back in Vancouver? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And were you all there ' ; till the start of the war, or...? Yoko Morita: No, then we went to Portland in 1940. Anna Takada: Okay. Oh, because he was moved to-- Yoko Morita: Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so, do I have it right that he was, he was being assigned to different-- Yoko Morita: Definitely, yes. Anna Takada: ...Locations and then he was kind of leading, leading the temple on his own there, or...? Yoko Morita: Well, no, the Nichiren Buddhist organization here in the United States had an organization where we had a headquarter temple, which was at that time, was located in Los Angeles. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: And we had, you know a head archbishop who headed the organization and, and the priests got together for their annual meetings and things like that. But we were in Portland until the war, and then we were sent to Minidoka because most of the people in, in Portland went to Minidoka. Anna Takada: I see. And do you have memories of living in Portland before the war? Yoko Morita: Yes, some in that-- At that time, you know, things were going fairly well for the Japanese Americans. And we had a separate home for the priest who, and his family. So we had a house and we visited and I remember going to different members' ; homes and things like that. But that' ; s about it because I was seven when I, when we were in camp, when we went to camp. Anna Takada: And were you enrolled in school, or...? Yoko Morita: Yes, I, I went to kindergarten and first grade, but the first day in kindergarten, of course in my household, my father was a Buddhist priest, so the people he met 99% of the time were Japanese Isseis. So everything' ; s in Japanese. My mother was a stay at home mother, so it was all Japanese. She really didn' ; t need any English. And so when they sent me to school in kindergarten, first day, they sent me home and they said teach her some English before she comes back. Because in those days we didn' ; t have television. You couldn' ; t learn from watching. And of course turning on the radio made gibberish, so I didn' ; t speak any English when I first went to kindergarten and I finished first grade. And I think by the time we went to camp, I had started second grade. Anna Takada: Do you, I, do you have, do you like personally remember going to school, and... Yoko Morita: No, those are only stories. Right. Anna Takada: Okay, and did you eventually... Well, I guess another question. Did you go to Japanese school or Sunday school or anything outside of kind of your typical-- Yoko Morita: Yes, Saturday morning Japanese school. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Do you have memories of that, or...? Yoko Morita: Not before the war, but we did have Japanese school after the war again. And, and I do remember having, you know, going to class on Saturday mornings with a lot of other Japanese kids, members of our church. And so, but you know it' ; s just Saturday morning for a couple of hours and you really don' ; t... But in my case, because both of my parents only spoke Japanese, I maintained my Japanese, retained it a lot. And then when we came back, we started you know ikebana classes and my mother didn' ; t speak in English, but she had a lot of American students, so I did translating for her. So basically, my Japanese was you know, fairly good. In fact, even today I' ; m pretty, pretty much literal already. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, so you mentioned that you were, you were being housed by the temple. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Do you, do you remember that, what that living situation was like or what the house was like itself? Yoko Morita: It was a very nice house, you know with a living-- typical small house. And it was located next to the church, so the building itself. So it was nice. And, and for that time, I guess, you know I mean, the economy wasn' ; t that great and the Japanese community wasn' ; t that large, but they were able to afford to pay the rent for the house and buy us a car and that kind of thing. But, so-- And I, I do remember going on trips to call on, on our members you know, in the car and things like that. But that' ; s about it. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, if you had to guess, what kind of size would you say the, the temple was as far as members in Portland? Yoko Morita: As far as members, Nichiren was probably one of the smaller ones. The Buddhist temple in Portland there was very large, but we had a very large building. I mean we had an immense building in comparison. And so after the war, we lived, we, we went back there in 1945 and stayed until 1951. And going pretty much far in advance, but because we had a large building, the Japanese community used it for Nisei dances. We' ; d move all the benches out of the way and clear the floor on Saturday nights and we' ; d have dances. We would also, after the war, when the Japanese films became available, we showed movies there. And we also had some Japanese celebrities come and put on performances. When we, in fact, when the building was built, it' ; s unusual, but I don' ; t know if you know Kabuki at all, but you know how they come off from the sides of the stage, from up and there' ; s a pathway, well there' ; s a hole in the floor that had a thing so people could come out from the basement and you know we cleared the alter back and put up the stage and so the Kabuki people could come off the stage. And it was, you know it was almost like a theater. It was, you know, it was a social center for the Japanese American community really. Anna Takada: Mhmm. I' ; m gonna, I' ; m going to put a pin in this. I' ; m excited to hear more about what was going on, but before we get into that, ' ; cause we' ; ll get into detail, because I want to hear more about it-- Yoko Morita: After the war, right? Anna Takada: Yeah. Right. But, so going, going back to Portland, it sounds like your, your family was, you know, pretty well off-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: You know, supported by the temple. And you know, your father had the services there. Can you describe, I guess, what happened at the, the start of the war and when the war broke out? Yoko Morita: Yes, I could say that my father, because you know, most of the leaders of the community were picked up and he was picked up also, but I, he doesn' ; t know why and-- I can' ; t really explain, but he said that they took him up to the third floor of the city jail and showed them the cell that they were going to put him in. And then they told him, turned him around and said, " ; Go home." ; And the thing we assume is that he had only been in Portland a year or so, that he was not really developed to a, a community leader. I mean you know maybe he led his temple, but he was not a community leader. So, that' ; s the reason why. He had been telling us that he told them that I was in school and he had to come pick me up, otherwise I wouldn' ; t get, be able to get home. And so they said, " ; Okay, you can go home," ; but that doesn' ; t sound very reasonable with the FBI, you know, but that' ; s what he said. And of course his English was not that good, so I don' ; t know what he heard or what he understood, but he did come home and he was not kept separate from us when we all went to camp. Anna Takada: Okay. Is that something that you remember or just kind of what you heard? Yoko Morita: That' ; s what he told us. Right. And actually people ask us about, you know what was your travel like in, in going to assembly center where we were before we went to camp. I don' ; t remember anything except standing in line, getting all those crazy shots, the inoculations, but that' ; s about it-- and standing in line for food. But other than that, I don' ; t remember very much at all about assembly center except what I' ; ve heard. Anna Takada: So, does that mean that you, you probably wouldn' ; t have any memories of Pearl Harbor and-- Yoko Morita: Nothing, nothing. I don' ; t think I even heard about it until after you know, we were in school or after we came out. Because my parents, of course, I don' ; t know whether it was because they were new to the United States. I mean, they were only in the U.S. for about a year and a half before the war began, and so, and they never talked about it, so... I, I don' ; t think I ever really knew about it until after I got to school and I, you know we learned about a lot of stuff, which apparently, I think, come to think of it now is not until after I got out of camp. I mean, when I came out of camp, I was only in fifth grade, so yeah. In the first four years, in those days you only learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, so, not a lot of history. Anna Takada: Mhmm. At this time, I mean you were, you were very young and I, I know it' ; s, you know you probably don' ; t have that many memories of it, but at that time, do you think you were, you were socializing with other kids or, from school? Yoko Morita: Oh yeah, we had friends and we had school, and in camp it was, really had a, almost a social, I mean a regular community. And I, I know I took koto lessons, I took Japanese odori buyo lessons, and I also took what they call, I guess it' ; s like, it' ; s a children' ; s dance. You know you sort of dance to children' ; s stories and we did that. And, and then I did a little bit of calligraphy, but that' ; s about it. You know, but I did do all those things in, in camp. So, and then my mother was an ikebana sensei and she started teaching ikebana in camp also. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And before camp, the young people or kids your age, were they mostly Japanese or Japanese American? Yoko Morita: No, because of, our temple was located on the other side of the river from the Japanese community. In Portland they were all, most of them were on the southwest side of Portland across the river. And we were in Northeast. And I don' ; t know why they ended up being in Northeast, but that' ; s where it was until after the war. And basically, maybe because the land was cheaper out there, I don' ; t know. But as far as I remember, and I know that this, it turned out, it ended up being mostly a Black neighborhood by the time after the war. You know so it was not the best neighborhood. Anna Takada: So, you mentioned that you don' ; t really have any memories of evacuation or anything besides the inoculations. Can you tell me what you do remember of that process, or... Yoko Morita: Not of, of moving in at all. I don' ; t even remember that I looked in and that' ; s all there was. There was one big room, which everyone had and that we all-- there was no privacy, everybody, you know everybody slept in the same room and ate in the same room and that kind of stuff. But when you' ; re six or seven years old, it doesn' ; t bother you, you know? And my dad was able to continue with his work and, and he did have service, you know church services, temple services and things like that. So, actually, I, I just remember having fun and having my own friends, which I didn' ; t have when we were living in Portland. Most of the friends that we did have would be from children of the members who only came on Sundays or on the weekend or for some meeting or something like that, but basically not. And then the members who in, in Portland, their children were all about 10 or 12 years older than us because my father was rather young and the members were... You know, most of the Niseis that I remember are from Portland are all gone. There isn' ; t anybody left. Anna Takada: And so besides those children of, of the temple, you also had your siblings. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: And let' ; s see- Yoko Morita: And of course, before the war we didn' ; t speak too much English, you know, so you couldn' ; t mix with the neighborhood children either. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And which assembly center were you sent to? Yoko Morita: We were in Portland Assembly Center, and it' ; s-- I forget, but it was their racetrack. I forget what the name of it is. Anna Takada: I' ; m blanking at the, on the Portland' ; s one. Yoko Morita: Right. I can' ; t remember what, the name of it is at all. People have asked me. I should really look it up. Anna Takada: And, do you have any sense of how long you were at the assembly center before going into camp? Yoko Morita: All I know is what I' ; ve heard about six months before everybody was sent out. Anna Takada: And, and then from there, do you know how you traveled? Yoko Morita: On the train. Anna Takada: On the train? Yoko Morita: Again, I, the only stories I' ; ve heard. Right. Anna Takada: I mean it' ; s, it' ; s still, you know It' ; s still helpful to know what the, even the family kind of, lore stories. Yoko Morita: Right. Well, we, we traveled together going in, my dad and, and there were four of us kids and my mom. We traveled together. And, and from the stories I hear about the blinds have to be down and things like that, but I don' ; t e-- I don' ; t even remember the train ride period. And it' ; s a pretty long train ride from Portland to southern Idaho you know? Probably at least overnight. Anna Takada: And so where, would it, would it have been in camp that some of your earliest memories are, or... Yoko Morita: Well, I have some friends from there that I' ; ve kept in contact with, I' ; ve lost in the last few years, but I' ; ve kept in contact. I remember going to school. My memories of, of being, you know it was just-- The buildings were just built, there were no sidewalks, no nothing, so when it rained, it was a huge mud puddle. And the one story that I remember is going to school the first day on a very rainy day, we lost our shoes and we couldn' ; t find them in the mud. So then, we had to go home and have my dad go follow us back and look for our shoes. That happened a couple of times, but you know, those are silly stories, but things that you remember as a kid. And then, we did you know, in, in the camps, we had Saturday movies for the kids, cowboy stories, cartoons, you know the, the cartoons that you see when you' ; re little. And every Saturday we used to go to those. And I think that was probably the first time I was introduced to American movies. You know we didn' ; t go to anything like that and I don' ; t think we could have afforded to if we had at the time. Anna Takada: Where were they screening those? Yoko Morita: In what they call the rec hall. Every, every block had the 12 barracks for living. And then we had a mess hall where we all ate. And then we had a laundry and, and shower room. It was, you know an open shower room in every block. And then one building that was called a rec room. And they were used for different things. Some were, one was used near us was used as a store that you could buy your necessary things. They brought in stuff, you know, some underwear kind of stuff, and the proper stuff that you needed. And then in other places, they were used as a theater and some places were used as a dance floor. I think, well the high school kids they had used one of... Because we had a high school there too. And then they probabl-- I think we probably used one of the rec rooms for our temple meetings or you know, for any kind of group meetings. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me about any of the, the other activities that you remember doing besides cartoons? There were temple meetings you mentioned. Yoko Morita: Yes. Well, I did take o-koto lessons and then we, and I took dance, Japanese dance lessons and I took the children' ; s, I forget what it' ; s called, but it' ; s a certain kind of dance and calligraphy a little bit. But other, other than that, I remember my dad played men' ; s baseball. They had a, a league and they played, and one of the reasons I know that is because he broke a finger and he always had one crooked finger when he was playing baseball. But we were all too young to be in anything organized. And I understand that there were Boy Scout groups and Cub Scouts, but my brothers were too young to do that. And there was a pond near our bloc-- barrack, where it would freeze, and we would go ice skating in the winter and we were able to get ice skates from order from Sears and things like that. So we, those things we were able to get. And I remember going ice skating and swimming in this muddy pond. So... Anna Takada: Mhmm. And was your mom, was she working at all? Yoko Morita: Yes, she worked in, in the mess hall, I guess you would say as a waiter or a server or something. Basically though you weren' ; t served because we went you know along a, like a, a deli where you just asked for what you wanted, and so-- Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And a question I should have asked earlier, was she working when, either in Vancouver or-- Yoko Morita: No, she was at home. She was a stay-at-home mom. Anna Takada: Right. And she had, was, this was the start of having you and your siblings. And you said your father had services in the rec room or the rec hall? Yoko Morita: I think. Yeah, rec hall. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And do you have any sense of how, how many people of that temple were in Minidoka or attending? Yoko Morita: Probably quite, not the numbers, but I would say a, a fairly large number. Only that, because there were, the Seattle people were in there and the Portland people were in there. And so, and the Seattle minist-- priest did not come to camp. He went back home or was on his way home. So the Seattle priest was that, so my dad, you know, we lived in block 29 in camp. In Minidoka there was from one to 44, so we were kind of sort of in the middle. And I think from both ends, the Seattle people were at the one end and the Portland people, we were mixed sometimes, but mostly divided that way. And so I' ; m, if I, I don' ; t remember exactly, but I' ; m sure the temple might have been in, in, in our services were held in our block or near it. Anna Takada: And I imagine that there was probably a mix of children in camp who were either speaking mostly Japanese or mostly English or maybe a mix. Would you happen to remember your own communication with... Yoko Morita: My friends? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: With my friends, it would' ; ve been all English by that time because I was in second grade and I was a regular school, you know, public school student Yeah. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. So you had developed your English? Yoko Morita: Yes, my English, yes. Anna Takada: Are there any other, any other memories or anything you would like to share about what you can recall of... Yoko Morita: Of camp life? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Or even just stories from your family? Yoko Morita: Well see now, after we went to camp, we were near the city of Twin Falls, Idaho. And I don' ; t know how my dad found out, but there was a family, there were several families living in Idaho in Twin Falls, and they were Nichiren, and so he asked permission to go out to them to service them with their religious life. And so about once every two months or so, he was allowed to go to Twin Falls to service these people that, that they would put-- And the family was allowed to go with him, so we would be able to go with him. And because there were stores there, we would take a shopping list from all our members and, and buy stuff and bring them back for them, which is, so from what I understand, Minidoka was pretty much a very liberal camp. You, you were not considered as bad as, I think Tule Lake was considered a troublemaker camp and that kind of stuff. But I think Minidoka wasn' ; t, so we traveled out to there several times a year to service the members there and, and had a good time. Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Do you remember that? Yoko Morita: Yes, yes. Anna Takada: Remember going out? Yoko Morita: Yes. Yeah. Going out. And I remember going into, of course in those days they were called 10 cent stores, well, dime stores, the Woolworth and Kresge' ; s, and taking a list and buying this color thread and that color thread and this ribbon and this much yarn and that kind of stuff. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And so were you going to an actual temple that was there for the community outside of Minidoka? Yoko Morita: No, we just met in someone' ; s home. Anna Takada: Oh, mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And do you know how many people were kind of there? ' ; Cause the, so I' ; m- Yoko Morita: There were just two or three families, so probably 10 people if that many, you know, even if just the older Issei generation came, it would be you know, eight or nine at the most I' ; m sure. Anna Takada: And so I' ; m assuming that these are Japanese-- Yoko Morita: Americans. Yeah, yeah. Anna Takada: --that were, you know they weren' ; t on the, the, in the exclusion zones, so they didn' ; t have to go to camp. Yoko Morita: Right. They were with, outside of the 200 miles, so they didn' ; t have to go to camp. Anna Takada: Hm. Yeah, that' ; s, that would be really interesting to you know, hear about what that dynamic was like. Yoko Morita: Yeah, right, right. And I went to the Minidoka Pilgrimage this year for the first time, and I, we went through Twin Falls and there was a historic, well, I wasn' ; t-- we didn' ; t have the time to go through town slowly to find out where exactly they were or even to ask questions, but I, I thought if I had really had the time, I would' ; ve liked to run around and see if there are any there still from there or you know their children are still there or not, but you know, it' ; s 70 years, so who knows. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Right. And, and you' ; re mentioning it' ; s only a couple families. Yoko Morita: Right, right. Anna Takada: So... Oh, one other question I wanted to ask was if your father had any work in camp as well? Yoko Morita: No, he didn' ; t do any work. He would just stayed at, stayed with his temple people and stuff. My mother worked. Anna Takada: And I' ; m not sure how this might have worked outside of camp too, but it sounds like he was you know, being housed by the temple. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: So was that kind of where his living was coming from? Yoko Morita: Yes. Oh, he did get a salary from the, from the temple itself, so that' ; s what we lived on. And of course in Portland, most of our, not most. Many of our members were farmers. And so we got a lot of vegetables and that kind of stuff. You know, we would have potatoes coming out of our ears and apples, and-- Anna Takada: Well fed. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Did that salary, if you would happen to know, did, did that continue while he was in camp? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t think so, because I don' ; t know that, that the, the people who are our members could have been, I don' ; t think we were that organized that they could afford, you know. There was no membership fee, I, I doubt very, very much. I very much doubt it very much. But I do remember that after the war, when we came back to Portland, his salary was $50 a month, with, to be able to feed six of us. And my sister was born, so then, then there were seven of us, so $50, but rent, was rent free, you know. And I don' ; t know if you know the Japan-- the Buddhist tradition, but people donate to the temple at the end of the year for you know, and mostly it came in forms of rice and shoyu and miso. And so, and basically it was for use for the temple during the year for their many festivals and meetings and stuff, the rice and, and that, you know and then the shoyu and so we were allowed to use that. So as far as the, the staples of Japanese food we had, you know then we had to buy our, our bread and our meat and, and eggs and things, but then we got the vegetables from our farmers, so it was $50 and that was a very little bit of money. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: Yeah. Anna Takada: So while we' ; re, we' ; re talking about it, can you tell me about where your family, basically what happened after the camp and... Yoko Morita: Okay. We went back to Portland and the house was no longer there. So we lived in the basement of the temple. Anna Takada: Okay. Which was next door to your former house? Yoko Morita: Yes. We lived in the basement. We did our, our cooking and stuff in the, in the kitchen that was made there, put there to prepare you know for the large festiv-- church affairs and things. And then my sister and I slept in the attic. There was an attic where my dad had his office and my sister and I slept up there and my brothers and my parents lived, slept in the basement. And so, you know. But Portland doesn' ; t get real cold like Chicago, but it does get cold and you can' ; t heat the whole building up for just the five of us, so we lived a very cold life. We had a gas burner in, in the living room downstairs and upstairs we didn' ; t have anything. So my sister and I really froze. I mean, we get up some mornings, not, well, maybe once or twice in the five years we lived there after the war that our, our ink stands, the ink in our ink stands would be frozen, you know so it got cold at night. And my dad had a, a heater, an electric heater in his office to keep warm, but we didn' ; t have one in our bedroom. So we took a very, very warm bath, hot bath, and warmed our bodies up and went in. Anna Takada: Wow. And was this you and Yoshiko who-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And then your other siblings. Yoko Morita: They slept in the basement where basically we kept warm with a gas burner, so. Anna Takada: Do you know what year it was that your family left camp? Yoko Morita: The family left camp in August of 1945. We were probably near towards the end because they were beginning... But my dad stayed back to make sure that all of our members from our temple got out all right and then he came back. He wanted us out in August because he wanted us to start the school year. So we started out. And we started out, and then we had an accident on the way to the, to Twin Falls to catch our train. And so then we had to go back for a couple of weeks before we could go back out. But there was a lady, one of our, the members went with us and she had broken a couple of, none of us were hurt seriously, but she had broken a couple of ribs, so she had to end up waiting a couple of months before she could get out and so... Anna Takada: Oh wow. Yoko Morita: Yeah. But we did, and then when we got back to Portland, we didn' ; t have any place to stay. So in Portland, there were several Japanese families that owned hotels, so they let us stay in one of those rooms until my dad came and the temple was ready for us to go live in. Anna Takada: Hmm. Let' ; s see. I' ; m going to... I' ; m sorry to interrupt this. I' ; m just going to check on something outside. Yoko Morita: Sure. Anna Takada: Just so that we can keep our, our sound. But I' ; ll be right back. We can come right back to it. Yoko Morita: Sure. Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry about that. Yoko Morita: No problem. Anna Takada: All right. I' ; m so sorry about that. Yoko Morita: That' ; s all right. Anna Takada: Okay. All right. So to pick right back up. So the, the accident on your way to, and I' ; m sorry, it' ; s Twin Falls? Yoko Morita: Twin Falls. Anna Takada: Twin Falls. This was in a car? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And who was, who was all in the car? How many? Yoko Morita: My mother, the four of us kids and a, a member whose name was Mrs. Sasaki and she was a member, was going to help my mom with the four of us kids in the train. Anna Takada: So you all were going to go back to Portland together? Yoko Morita: Together. Anna Takada: And so after that you went back to camp? Is that what you said? Yoko Morita: Yes, we did go back to camp until they were, you know we were able to be, we, most of us, we were all kids. So we were just bruised. And I don' ; t remember how long we stayed back, but we did have to go back out again and had to be back in, we wanted to be back in Portland by September 1st when school started. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And I' ; m, I' ; m sorry, did you, did you make it for the September 1st start? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And was it the same group, your, your family and family friend who went? Yoko Morita: She didn' ; t because she was in the hospital with the broken ribs. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: She came back, I think probably, I don' ; t know how much later, but she did come back along. Maybe she might have come back with my dad. I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. And do you know how long your father stayed back before joining you? Yoko Morita: I think probably ' ; till sometime in mid-November. Anna Takada: Oh, okay. Yoko Morita: Yeah, when the camp was almost completely empty when they said, " ; You got to get out." ; I think it' ; s November or October that he came home. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. So you mentioned kind of the living situation immediately after camp and, and staying in the temple. Can you tell me more about kind of what that was like going back to Portland for you and your family? Yoko Morita: Going back to Portland again, I was 10 and we were busy with school, so I don' ; t remember if I had any real reaction as to whether I enjoyed it or whether I' ; m bitter about it. We did live in the basement and it was, you know, but we had a lot of room in the basement because it was a big temple. We could play and ride our bikes in the basement on a rainy day. It was fun, you know as we grew up. And we, we had problems because we were constantly breaking stuff and I think that the church board members weren' ; t very happy, but we did, we did. And it was inconvenient in that there was no heating and the only way you could heat hot water was to turn, burn the, turn the furnace on, which was wood burning, so we had to burn in order to take a bath. And so that was kind of inconvenient. We had to, you know, " ; Okay, we got to start the furnace up," ; at least to warm water up because there was no water, separate water heater. And so we did that. And so we did get some warmth you know when we, but you didn' ; t burn it very long, so that was it. There was a lot of chores connected with living in the temple because of course people came back from camp and didn' ; t have the money. So it was a wood burning furnace to heat the, the temple itself, the chapel part of the temple. And, and so that had to be cut and then it had to be moved indoors or stacked up and couldn' ; t pay anybody to do it, so us kids ended up doing it. There were a lot of things, we didn' ; t have a janitor, so us kids ended up doing the janitorial work, you know, cleaning all the bath, the public bathrooms. And, and we had, there was no private bathrooms for us in the living quarter, so we used the public bathrooms as, as our own. And then when, after a big service or a big function or something, and we had 500 people in the temple using toilets and clean those out. And it was really quite a, you know it was... And we had the, we had to move, we were the ones who moved the benches to the side so they could have their dances and then we had to move them back on Sunday morning or after they go home to move them back so it could be used for the temple again. And so basically the four Arakawa kids were the janitors for four or five years. Anna Takada: Wow. Yeah. Yoko Morita: It' ; s, because they couldn' ; t, they didn' ; t have the money to you know pay for a janitor and the members were all too busy to do that kind of stuff, so... Anna Takada: And did services start back pretty much immediately when you... Yoko Morita: Well, once we got back, the services began immediately and it was a, you know, fairly large amount of people and we did have a Sunday school on Sunday mornings and we had, we did start some Nihon-gakkou again on Saturdays, so things were going along pretty well. Anna Takada: And if your father wasn' ; t there, was someone else leading the services? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t remember that he ever left very often for anything. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Well, when your family came without him, when he was still in camp? Yoko Morita: Well, I don' ; t think we had, had any kind of services, because the, the temple itself was not open. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Yoko Morita: Yeah. It wasn' ; t open until, I think, until he came back. Anna Takada: I see. Yoko Morita: And then during the war, the basement was filled with members who wanted stuff stored, their personal belongings that they couldn' ; t take with them, stuff, but a lot of it was missing too when we came back. They were broken into it and a lot of it was missing. Anna Takada: Would you happen to know if your family had any belongings there as well? Yoko Morita: Yeah, we had stuff there. We had, when I was born, my grandfather in Japan, do you know what the Hinamatsuri dolls are? Anna Takada: Yes. Yoko Morita: Yes. Well he sent my, me a whole set and pieces of it were missing, not all of it, just pieces of it. And so I miss those every year when I put the, you know, I still have them, they' ; re like, what now? 83 years old because I got them when I was born but, and I, every time I put them up I think, " ; Oh, that piece is missing," ; and I know they' ; re missing ' ; cause I, I missed them right from the beginning. Why they didn' ; t take the whole set, you know? Anna Takada: And so, I, I' ; m sorry that for that little interruption-- Yoko Morita: That' ; s all right. Anna Takada: ...but right before that you were mentioning some of the living arrangements for people getting out of camp. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And, would you mind just going back to that and explaining you know, where people were going or, or how they were able to find housing? Yoko Morita: I don' ; t know how the others found housing, but the people, there were several, one, two, maybe about five families that owned hotels in downtown Portland, which is more or less sort of Japanese town. And I don' ; t know whether all the people who, who didn' ; t have places to go back to stayed there until they found something or not. We were probably the last, and of course I wasn' ; t involved with a lot of that stuff. Maybe if I was older, I might have been, but I don' ; t know how or where they lived until they found a place to live. But most of them ended up in southwest Portland. Portland was divided in quadrangles and Japanese... Well, before the war, Northwest Washington was Japan, Japantown. And by the, by after the war, I believe the Chinese took over. And so it' ; s mostly then everybody moved to the southwest. But the church was located in Northeast across the river. And I don' ; t, I don' ; t even know if we had a, even a member of one family who lived there on that, even near the temple. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And I' ; m, I' ; m sorry if I missed this, but your family, were you staying like immediately after camp, were you staying in one of these hotels? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: And so it was your... So by this time it would' ; ve still just been you and your three siblings and your mother. Yoko Morita: Right. And my mom. And she sort of, I guess you would say earned our stay there by helping them you know, make the beds and cleaning the rooms and things like that for a couple of months. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So that was kind of making the living-- Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: ...working there. Yoko Morita: Working there. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Do you remember what that, that room was like or how long you were staying there? Yoko Morita: Well, we only stayed till my father came, so probably just a few months, but we, we started out and it' ; s in southwest Portland. So we started school in the Southwest District School. I mean you know the schools even today are according to school districts. So we started there, so we continued going there. That meant for us, we had to take a bus from across town to get to school every morning and at night. And my sister and I graduated from that particular school, but the boys, the school decided had to go to the school in their neighborhood. So they went to a school in our neighborhood, back in our neighborhood. Anna Takada: At this time, do you remember what grade you were in? Was it fifth grade? Yoko Morita: I went back in fifth grade and finished fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth. Anna Takada: Okay. Graduating the Southwest District School? Yoko Morita: Yeah, school. Anna Takada: Do you remember the name of the school? Yoko Morita: Yes. Shattuck. Anna Takada: Shattuck? How do you spell that? Yoko Morita: S-H-A-T-T-U-C-K. And, and friends that I had made in camp were also in that school. Most of the Japanese had gone there so... And they all went on to Lincoln High School, which was in the Southwest. But I ended up going to Washington High School on the other side of the river, which is closer to our house. It was really my district high school. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like for you kind of reentering a public school after your experience in camp? Yoko Morita: Well actually school in camp, except that they were all just Japanese ' ; cause we were, it was more like a public school. I didn' ; t think it made too much difference. We had, I had only Caucasian teachers the three years I was there, so I didn' ; t, there were sev-- there were some niseis who were certified to be teachers who worked, but I don' ; t think there were that many ' ; cause I don' ; t rememb--, I remember my teachers from camp. In fact, I kept in contact with my second grade teacher ' ; till she died in 1960 or something like that. We corresponded very periodically, but we did. Anna Takada: What was her name? Yoko Morita: Mrs. Nicholson. Anna Takada: Do you remember the names of your other teachers? Yoko Morita: And my fourth grade teacher was Ms. Schmidt. Those are the only two I remember. And Ms. Schmidt I also kept in touch with until she died about 1970, maybe six-- in the late sixties. But when I got married in ' ; 58, I sent her an invitation to my, or at least an announcement, and she wrote back, she says, " ; I' ; m happy that you' ; re getting married, but I' ; m sorry that you' ; re not continuing teaching." ; Well, I intended to continue teaching while I was working, but she never got married and she gave her life to education. So I think she expected me to not get married either. Most of the teachers were Quakers. Most of the Caucasian people who did anything with the camps were Quakers. Anna Takada: And at Shattuck? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: How, like... Can you just tell me a little bit more about that school like what class sizes or... Yoko Morita: Class sizes were probably about you know 25, 20, 30. And that neighborhood was mostly Jewish. So, and we had, I remember being pretty much integrated into the group. We didn' ; t have any problems. And I don' ; t remember any... You know a lot of people went back, and there was still a lot of discrimination against the Japanese. I don' ; t feel-- I didn' ; t feel any myself, and the teachers there were welcoming. And I remember I kept in contact with some of my teachers there too. I like to keep in contact with friends. In fact, I still have friends in Portland from grade school that I, when I travel, we get together for lun-- Anna Takada: Wow. Yoko Morita: Yeah. So I like to keep in contact with my old friends. And so I had a good experience and I was pretty much of an organizer in that school. Ended up being you know, pretty active in school, school activities. Ended up being the, the top of the safety-- You know in those days, we had safety patrol kids who directed the kids across streets right from school and stuff, and I was organizing them. And I did a lot of that kind of stuff. So, it was a good school experience for me. I liked it very much. Anna Takada: What were some of the other activities you were involved in? Yoko Morita: Well, we had sort of a local base-- basketball thingy. But other than that, not really. Just you know, safety patrol and maybe student government type stuff. I was not, we had plays and things like that, but I was not in that sort of field of activities. Anna Takada: And so when you first got back to Portland in, close to, September ' ; 45, your father was out. And you were staying at the hotel, but when you came, you moved into the, the temple. Yoko Morita: When he came, yes. Anna Takada: And, and you guys were the, the groundskeepers? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Of the temple. And so was it through, through this time to... This entire time, are you going to Shattuck? Yoko Morita: Yes. Then the last, then the last two years, I was at Washington High School. I spent, did my freshman and sophomore year there. Anna Takada: Okay. And how about that as a high school? Was it also-- Yoko Morita: It' ; s pretty much integrated. Although most of the Japanese kids went to Lincoln because the, their homes are, most of them are over there. And, then, and by then, a lot of them had scattered all over. So there were several from, going to other different school-- high school. But Lincoln was primarily the school that most of the Japanese American kids went to, I think. I' ; m not sure. At Roosevelt, there were my family and probably two others that were Japanese American, and the rest of them were Caucasian, you know, just out of diversity. Anna Takada: And would you happen to, to remember any conversations about camp, or were people curious you know, why? Yoko Morita: Not in Portland? They knew. I think they knew because we left from there. But when we moved to Chicago, and I was sitting with my friends at lunch and we were talking about camp. And they said, " ; You went to girls camp for three years?" ; And I said, " ; No, no, no, no. That' ; s a little different." ; But most of them thought I had gone to a Girl Scout camp for three and a half years. Anna Takada: So can you explain how your family, so you, you' ; ve completed your sophomore year of high school, and...? Yoko Morita: Okay. Then my dad traveled the United States where many Japanese Americans had relocated after camp to find out where many of them had locate-- relocated. I think he spent six weeks on the train going from one city to another. And we came home in early August and said, " ; There' ; s a big congregation in Chicago. So that' ; s where we' ; re going." ; So in two weeks, we were in Chicago. I mean, we picked up and left immediately almost, again, so that we could go back to school in September. Anna Takada: I see. Do you remember your reactions to that news? Yoko Morita: Yes. I didn' ; t want to leave, of course. You know, I had friends, and I had two years, more than half, oh half of my high school life left. So I didn' ; t want to. But when you decide to leave, you decide to leave. And that' ; s it. Anna Takada: Do you have any idea what happened to the, the temple? Yoko Morita: Well, they, you know we moved within two weeks of the time. But they, I mean he, my dad was replaced with another minister who, at the time, was in Sacramento, and he moved his family up to Portland. And there was you know the exchange ceremony and all that that goes on when you have a change of leadership. And, and we left. Anna Takada: One thing that I did just want to touch on before getting into life in Chicago, was you mentioned the, the activities at the temple that took place after the war. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: That was at that temple in Portland, correct? Yoko Morita: Yes, yes. Anna Takada: So before we, we talk about Chicago, can you tell me a little bit more about, about those activities and kind of what the, the community was like post-camp? Yoko Morita: Right. Well, the, the Nichiren Buddhist Temple in Portland was a large building. And so there were a lot of community activities, particularly social activities. The Niseis held their dances there, and I don' ; t remember how often, maybe once every month or once every other month, but they would have a dance. And they, and, and we would have to clear all the benches to the side so that they could, and, and all the carpeting and everything had to be moved and things. And they, I think the Niseis had a good time you know? It was the entire Japanese community that came, not just our members. So it was for the Portland Japanese American community. And so it was good. And then when movies started coming from Japan, we would show movies on Saturday night, Japanese movies. And of course, that was for the Isseis, and not particularly for the Nisei community. And of course, at that time, still there were a lot of Isseis left. So it was a, a very big crowd, you know? And my brother and my sisters and I would help sell sodas and that kind of stuff during the movie, or before and after the movie. And we ended up moving the benches and we' ; d clean up, and, and move the benches back, and for the service on Sunday morning. And then after-- For a while, we had a regular group of people coming from Japan, celebrities, movie stars, actors, singers, dance troupes. And we, the, the altar in Portland was huge, and we just moved all of the religious stuff back and pulled the curtain across. And you could really have a, a nice play type stuff, you know? I mean you could put on a play very easily. And, and then as I mentioned before, you could almost put on a kabuki if you wanted to because of they had that sidewalk coming up. And it was things that the Japanese American community... I mean there was no Japanese TV like today, where you could get TV Japan or anything. So it was something for the Isseis to look forward to. And it was fun. A lot of them are well-known Japanese people, actors and actresses, who came. I don' ; t know if this generation of people would remember, but Misora Hibari was one who came, and she' ; s a singer, a very, very popular singer. And she was 13 when she came, and she was a national star until she died in, and I think she died really young. She died when she was 51 or 52. But she was one. And the man, and I don' ; t know if a lot of people who would be watching this would know, but there were, was a samurai who played the Blind Samurai. There' ; s a whole series of movies that he made. He was a blind samurai, and he defended the poor and the defenseless. And he came, couple of times, and was part of the program. So we met a few very interesting people. Anna Takada: What was his name? Yoko Morita: I can' ; t remember. I wish I could remember. Anna Takada: And was this, some of these arrangements, was this through the temple? Or how are you kind of getting-- Yoko Morita: I don' ; t think, no, I, I think it was a, maybe the Japanese, Japanese Chamber of Commerce or some Japanese group that brought it. But we were the only place that could house them. You know they, they, they dress, we had room for them to change their dressing and everything in the basement, and then come up. So it was, and I, you know I have never been in any of the other churches or temples in Portland, but we held, we' ; re the only ones who held that stuff. So I' ; m assuming this. Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember, by name, any of other organizations or, or groups that would' ; ve been coming together and helping to organize these types of-- Yoko Morita: Not that I know of, no. I don' ; t know. All I know is they came, and we were the temple, you know, the building that had the space and could house them. But that' ; s about it. Anna Takada: Okay. One other question I had before getting into Chicago is, of course, you were very young when the war started, and you know, even after camp. But there are certain... So obviously the people probably most impacted by the camp are, are the adults, you know the parents. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: People trying to make a living or go to school or-- Yoko Morita: The college aged Niseis. Anna Takada: Right. But I' ; m curious to know how certain information was kind of passed down to you. So like for example, your father was picked up by the FBI. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: And then released. And I' ; m just wondering like, if you would happen to remem-remember if there was a certain time that you, your family was talking about this, or that this information was shared with you? Because of course you were a child, so I don' ; t know how much-- Yoko Morita: Yes, I think most of it was after we came to Chicago, and we talked about it. Because like I said before, when we first moved to Chicago and my friends, when we talked about my being in camp for three and a half years, things started, you know people started talking about it. And so until then, I don' ; t think we talked about it at all. I don' ; t even remember that my dad had been you know, pulled away at, at the beginning of the war. So we... And then, of course, so when we came to Chicago, and he established the temple, we had members, not only from Portland but people from California, and people who had just, you know from all over who moved to Chicago. And there were several families that were Peruvians that came, were sent up from Peru because of the war. And they, too, talked. They started talking about their experiences. So everybody started talking about their experiences. And that' ; s, I think that' ; s when I really first heard about it. Anna Takada: And at this time, would you say you were teenage age? Yoko Morita: Yeah, I was 16, 15, 16? Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: Because I was a junior in high school. Anna Takada: Okay. In that case, so your, you moved to Chicago. Your father was interested in starting-- Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: ...the Nichiren Temple here. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: So can you, can you sort of explain what that move was like? Yoko Morita: Oh yeah. My dad, this was the first assignment that was not an assignment. He chose to move here. And so we came here in, in August of 1951, and we stayed at a member' ; s home for a week. There were seven of us by then. You know, and to have more than seven people in the house for more than a week, it' ; s a little bit... So we found an apartment on Clark Street. I don' ; t, you' ; re probably too young to remember, but there used to be a, a Japanese grocery store on Clark Street called York. We lived upstairs from them. And we had one bedroom and a living room, and a, an ice box, not a refrigerator. We had to buy ice every week to keep our food cold. We had one bedroom. And we, so the five of us slept, I was a teenager, I was 15, my sister was sixt-- 13... 14. My brother was 12, and then 10. And my youngest sister was 18 months. She was really late, 18 months. But the four of us slept in this one bedroom with two beds together so that all four of us slept together. It was just really a bedroom with all beds. That' ; s it. And we lived there for about six months until we found a building that we bought for the temple. And this apartment we shared, we shared the bath and the toilet with... The rest of the building was just boarders. So they were all single men, and us as a family. And that' ; s where we lived for six months. Anna Takada: Oh, the, you' ; re still talking about the one on Clark Street. Yoko Morita: Right. And then we bought the building on 1620 North LaSalle. Anna Takada: I' ; m sorry. I' ; m so bad with the, the addresses in, in Chicago still. Yoko Morita: That' ; s all right. Anna Takada: But was that still kind of like LaSalle, Clark area? Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: 1620? Yoko Morita: Do you know where the Moody Bible Church is? Across the street from there. Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: North and LaSalle. Anna Takada: Okay. Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago? Yoko Morita: It was a dirty town. It was a coal-burning town, and everything was black. Just, just really a very dirty town. Because Portland was a very clean town. And the first winter we came was a bad winter for us. Well, snow was always here. You know, in Portland, you didn' ; t have snow. Once, that last year we were in Portland, it snowed about a quarter of an inch. And school closed because it' ; s a very hilly town, and you know in the mountains. And so school closed. And we came here to Chicago. And the first winter, we had three feet of snow, and the schools didn' ; t close at all. Not even the delayed opening. But immediately, the snow turned black. And I remember my dad writing to his family in Portland saying-- I mean in Japan, saying, " ; Guess what? Chicago has black snow, not white snow." ; Because it stays around so long you know with the cars and everything splashing up. It does really turn black towards the end. But then it, and as it fell, you could see the soot falling on the snow too. So it was really a very dirty town, as far I were concerned. But we bought the house at 1620 LaSalle, and my brothers were still in grade school. So they were able to walk to the grade school. And then my sister and I went to high school, and we could walk if we got up early enough to walk. But we usually ended up taking public transportation. Anna Takada: Would that have been Waller High school? And how about your brothers? Yoko Morita: They went to LaSalle Elementary School, and my youngest sister did too. Noriko. Then we all graduated from Waller, all five of us. Anna Takada: Wow. Let' ; s see. I' ; m wondering if you could describe for me a little bit more about what that area was like. So I, six months is, it' ; s a fair amount of time to, to live in any one place. So this Clark Street apartment above York grocery store, can you kind of, paint a picture for, for what that area was like at that time? Yoko Morita: It was really, kind of, I don' ; t know, not the very best neighborhood, you know? There were a lot of, I guess today you might call them, homeless people. Or people who wander around. You were not too easy to go out at night, that kind of stuff. But there were, you know there were bad Japanese group. And we did a lot of... In high school, there was a, a I guess, it' ; s called, you call it, a delicatessen, or place where teenagers gathered called Ting-a-ling that we used to go for ice cream and stuff after different things. And then there was a community center there called the Olivet Institute, where the Japanese Americans had a lot of their dances and activities. Anna Takada: So, were there any other businesses or, or buildings in that area that stick out to you if, if you' ; re reminiscing of...? Yoko Morita: Well, the Chicago Midwest Buddhist Temple was just a few, few blocks away from us. Anna Takada: On LaSalle? Yoko Morita: Not on LaSalle, they' ; re on North Park Street Avenue, I think. More, well you know, LaSalle is a fairly major thoroughfare. They' ; re more into the neighborhood. Anna Takada: I see. Yoko Morita: Yeah. And I think they' ; re still there. Anna Takada: And York was a, a Japanese-owned grocery store. Yoko Morita: Yes. Anna Takada: Can you, can you tell me more about York Grocery Store? Your memories of it? Yoko Morita: Yes. Well, it was a small grocery store. You know it just had Japanese foods, whatever you could get at Japanese. But she also eventually moved up to north of Belmont after, do you know the Sandberg buildings that are built down there on LaSalle Street? The high rises between Clark and LaSalle, between North Avenue and Division? You know? Anna Takada: Okay. Yoko Morita: Okay, well, when they built that, they tore the all those little buildings down. And she moved up to, and she was a member of our temple, her family was. And so you know we did all our, of course, all our Japanese grocery shopping there. Anna Takada: What were some of the, the Japanese items that you could get there? Yoko Morita: Well, almost everything. You know the, the rice and the tofu and, and the canned goods. And some of the vegetables, if they could get the vegetables. Just about everything Japanese. Anna Takada: And let' ; s see, were there a lot of Japanese Americans living in that area when you were there? Yoko Morita: Not a lot, but there were a few families. In fact, we had a couple of members who lived not too far from us. But our members were scattered from all over Chicago, South Side and North Side. Basically, Chicago was divided into the two, the Hyde Park area and the Waller area. Right? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, and so where was the, the temple? Yoko Morita: On the first floor of the building. It was a family home, but we, we took one of the walls out between the, I guess that would' ; ve been their family room and a, and a dining room, and made it a, and our membership was probably about 30 or 40 families. And so, you know, and it' ; s just the Niseis or Isseis who came. So maybe 20 or 30 people came every Sunday. Anna Takada: It was mostly Isseis? Yoko Morita: Yeah, mostly. Anna Takada: And was this the 1620 North LaSalle? Yoko Morita: Yes. It was, we converted the first floor into a... And so then we lived on the second floor and third floor. Anna Takada: Okay. And as far as your, your personal life as a, a teenager, you know, new to the city. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Can you just describe you know kind of what-- Yoko Morita: Well, at Waller you know, there were, was a large number of Japanese kids. And as, as at Hyde Park, well, basically Waller and Hyde Park were the JA schools. And we had, my group of friends, there were probably 10 or 12 of us, who I guess you' ; d say we formed a club and call ourselves the Skyleens. And we are, you know the Chicago Niseis and Sanseis had made their own clubs. And there must have been close to 30 boys clubs. And, and we you know made up basketball teams and baseball teams and had competition and that stuff. And the group that I belonged to was the Skyleens, and, and it' ; s, you' ; ve mentioned before there was the, the clubs kind of council. I forget what, the Girls Club Council. And I was a member of it. I was not a leadership in that because I was one of the youngest ones. I think we were the youngest group of women because, I mean, as far as Niseis go, we are the youngest. We' ; re the last of them, you know, so we were the last. And, and the one group in Hyde Park. And then last night, I was trying to think of their name, I can' ; t... I think Tonko might have been in it. But, so you know. And we would have our... Because we were not particularly not-not accepted, but we were-- separated ourselves from the Caucasian community as far as high school goes. So we had our own dances, and we had our own basketball league and baseball league and that kind of stuff. So we kept busy. But we also had, I had to work because my dad' ; s temple was so small that he went to work when we came here. He worked, in, in fact the, the man whose house we stayed at the first week, worked as a, I don' ; t know what his job was, but he worked at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. And so he got my dad a job there in their accounting department. And the accounting department that he worked in, their busiest day was Saturday and Sunday. And my dad, of course, had temple on Sundays. So I went in on Saturday and on Sundays, that he couldn' ; t go in. And I worked there. And what we worked in was the Liquor Control Department. And what we counted was the receipts from the bars and the dining rooms, to see how many li--, how many drinks they sold. And then we had to compare it to see none was stolen. That was our job. And we, he, he worked Saturdays. Well, I worked every weekend, but we worked, had to be at work at six o' ; clock. And so I had to get up at, what, five to get on the, on the subway to get to Edgewater Beach. So I never got to sleep in late. At five days a week I went to school, and Saturday and Sunday I went to, to work. And of course our basketball games are on Saturday and Sunday, so... And we could quit working as soon as we finished and balanced our books. Right? And I would work like crazy to get out of there, and the guys would say, we got paid by the hours. And the guys would say, " ; Yoko don' ; t work so fast. We have to you know, stay here as long as we could." ; So that' ; s what I did. Anna Takada: It sounds like you were keeping very busy. Yoko Morita: Very busy for two years. But then my mother started teaching Ikebana. And she, her, it, it really became a business for her, and she, you know we were able to, dad was able to quit working because she was making enough of a livelihood for us because we did not charge our members membership. They just donated whatever they could. And so, there was no regular income coming from the temple, and there was no support coming from the headquarters either, now. You know so we, we had to work. Anna Takada: Do you know why that would' ; ve been, that the, where your father was formerly salaried, why coming to Chicago that... Yoko Morita: He decided he didn' ; t want to be. He said, " ; I' ; m going to make my own living, I' ; m going to do..." ; ' ; cause he knew that they could never afford, the small membership could never afford to be able to pay a salary for a man. I mean, I was heading for college in a couple of years, and so was the rest of my family. So, he decided that he would not ask for a salary. He came here voluntarily, and he said, " ; We will make do with what we can do." ; And we did. Anna Takada: So... Yoko Morita: They donated. You know they, there was a contribution box at, at the church, but it was never anything that they had to give, or that there was a membership due, or anything like that at all. Anna Takada: So would that mean that your father, this temple was kind of independent from the... Yoko Morita: No, he was within the organization, but he didn' ; t get a salary, because the salaries were paid by the members of that particular temple, not from the headquarter organization or anything. Anna Takada: Right, but formerly, they were, they were paying the housing, and things like that. Yoko Morita: Right. Anna Takada: Okay. And where was your mom teaching ikebana, or how did that work? Yoko Morita: We cleared chairs out from, from Temple, from the temple service, and we' ; d put the tables out, and, and they, it was in the chapel, because that was the only large room. And she would have about maybe 15, 20 students per session, and she had five classes. And she would gather all the material for the classes, we would go to the wholesale florist, and then she would divide it up so that it would be the right, right number of, how you know, what she wanted them to use for that particular lesson. And then, she would have, the school became known as Mishokai and they would have a show, an exhibit, once a year. And, in order to do that, we had, because she had five classes, we had over 100 students. So we had to have different material. You couldn' ; t have the same thing for all of them. We had to have something for all 100, and she and I and my brothers would drive around Indiana, north Illinois, Wisco-- Wisconsin, and look for wild materials that would hold, and then we' ; d buy the flowers and, and divide it up so the students would all have their own arrangements. We' ; d start arranging on about eight o' ; clock Saturday morning, and the first year, we finished the last arrangement at 10 o' ; clock Sunday morning, when the show opened. And so, you know, we worked through the night, and we' ; d go home and take a shower, and we' ; d be back to open the show up. And so, we, we did it at McCormick Place almost every year, and I can' ; t remember what the first year was. But then, I got married, and I had my kids, and I helped her with her thingy. My children slept under the grand piano at McCormick Place during the nights until we' ; d finish whatever we had to finish. Anna Takada: And, and so, this was some kind of like citywide showcase, or... Yoko Morita: Well this was a show to... exhibit for our stu-- our students to show what they have accomplished, or what they could do. And it was publicly, you know it was open to the public. We broadcast, we did newspaper articles, we bought... I mean we have lots of newspaper articles announcing our show. We were on... I don' ; t think you guys would probably remember, but Lee Phillips had sort of a community TV program, and every year she, we would ask her if she would take us on. And so, my mother and I would go on for about two minutes and talk about Mishokai and what the ikebana was, and advertise our show. We had a pretty broad attendance of people who came. Anna Takada: Wow. Yoko Morita: At least a thousand during that one 10-hour period. It' ; s pretty good. Anna Takada: And was your mother... Was she trained in Japan? Yoko Morita: Yes. In fact, she started... When, when they got married, and they came, when she came back with my dad to Vancouver, the students knew that she was an ikebana instructor, so they wanted her to teach. And she never intended to teach. And she told me once, she said, " ; I almost told your father, ' ; Send me back, ' ; cause I don' ; t want to teach. I want a divorce.' ; " ; But he wouldn' ; t send her back. Anna Takada: So it sounds like helping your mother with this, with the school was just another responsibility of yours is that-- Yoko Morita: Yes, and I scheduled my college classes so that I could be home for her daytime classes, so, so I could help her. Because, by then, by the time let' ; s see, by the time I was in college, it was two years later, and we had probably about 30% or 40% of the people were Caucasians. And so we, we had you know, but after years and years and years, most of them knew. I mean the, the terminology, they knew, and most of them came knowing something about it, so they could... And with her hand, and, and fixing whatever you know, arrangements that they had made, and she said, " ; Well, turn this a little bit this way and that way." ; They could. Maybe they didn' ; t get the philosophy behind a lot of it. Some of them did. Most of them probably did not, but they knew what to do. And, and she had a very large, large number of Caucasians, and all kinds of people. We had commercial florists, mostly housewives, but mostly, we had commercial florists. We had a, a child psychologist. We had a, you know a pediatrician, said it relaxed... And men who said that it relaxed them to come to class afterwards, to, doing the ikebana. It was a real large number of people who came and diversity was one of the things, and she taught for 30 years so... Anna Takada: Okay. Going, going back to your own personal life in Chicago... I' ; m wondering, well first, how was, what was, I' ; m wondering if you could tell me, or describe, what Waller was like in... Let' ; s see. That must have been ' ; 50? 1950? Yoko Morita: ' ; 51. 1951. Anna Takada: 1951. So what was Waller like at the time? I know you mentioned there was a fair amount of Japanese American students. Yoko Morita: Right. Well okay. Compared to my high school in Portland, Waller was a pretty wild school. My high school in Oregon was almost a sleepy town kind of school you know? Things were well organized, the kids were pretty civilized, I would say. But at Waller you know, you had to have a pass to get out of your classroom to do anything, and there were hall guards, and I just hated Waller my first year. And then, I, I got to know my, my class advisor, faculty advisor, and she pulled me along, and I, I really got to like Waller a lot. I became very active in student government. I ran for a student government office you know, and senior class office. And I never got active in any of the school activities, but just student government, and I ended up liking Waller, pretty much. But it was very, very different. I, I wrote back to my high school classmates in, in Portland, saying, " ; This is a lousy school." ; But of course, now, it' ; s one of the preeminent schools now, but Waller at that time was a small, small neighborhood school, and it was really quite bad. Anna Takada: As far as quality of education? Yoko Morita: Quality. That' ; s right. Anna Takada: And you mentioned your involvement in, in girls, a girls club, the Skyleens. Yoko Morita: Right, right. Anna Takada: For people who are totally unfamiliar with the Chicago Japanese American community, how would you kind of describe or explain that to someone? Yoko Morita: Well I think we, I, I came in late, because I came in as a, as a junior in high school. But I, I, my assumption is that, because we didn' ; t, we were in high school, but were not going to the high school dances, or going to a lot of high school football games, and stuff. At least at Waller, we weren' ; t. I think maybe at Hyde Park, they might have been more, because there were a lot more Japanese Americans down there. But, so we formed our little, our own group socially to... I mean, diversity was there, but we didn' ; t mix. You know like, at, at that time, the blacks sat with the blacks, you know the Asians they sat with the Asians, and you sit, sat in your own place for lunch, and all that. So, that was what it was. And so we, and I don' ; t know why they, we were the last of the Japanese American clubs to form, so I don' ; t know why the first ones began. Most of them are probably 10 or 12 years older. And, but we did have a social club, and there were enough of us in our age group that we could have a dance once a month. And this council was to sort of schedule the different dances, so the different clubs didn' ; t hold a dance at the same time. It was so that we would all go to each other' ; s dances and things, and that' ; s what it was about. And so, that' ; s how it was formed. And then, I don' ; t think there was another, younger group... of, of girls, at least... who you know formed a club. And even today, we have... Well, my husband belonged to a group in Hyde Park that were called the Ro Babes. I don' ; t know if you' ; ve heard of them, but they were a pretty active bunch of guys. And I, there, and I don' ; t know, didn' ; t know them, any of them, until I met my husband. And, after we all were out of college and married, the Ro Babes held a reunion, I think every 18 months. And at that time, they were young, married kids with, with kids, and so it was a they brought all their children and they, you know, for a weekend, spent at, in mostly I think Tahoe, and Vegas, and that kind of place. And, but at that time, we were married, and, and my husband was assigned to Tokyo. He worked for the United States Treasury Department. He was a customs officer, and he was assigned to the embassy in Tokyo. So, no way can we afford to come from Japan to come for a weekend with a family of three kids, so we didn' ; t join them. But eventually, all the different clubs asked to be part of that reunion. So now, we have what' ; s called the All Chicago Club reunion, and we met every 18 months in Vegas until about four years ago, maybe five years ago. And they have a meeting here now, once...you know those 18... And I have not been able to attend any of them, but it' ; s been active. And so, you know we' ; ve, in Vegas with the spouses and everything, we had almost 200, I think about 200 people at these thingies for a long time, and a lot of the people were in their eighties and nineties when we were still in our seventies. So you know there were, all the people were there, and it was interesting. It was fun. It' ; s fun to get to go back and see ' ; em. And then, people came from as far away as Hawaii. The, there were a couple of Ro Babes who were living in Hawaii, and they came every year. Anna Takada: And, as far as the Skyleens, about how big, or how many girls were in that group? Yoko Morita: I think there were eight, or nine of us, maybe 10. Anna Takada: And so, it sounds like for a lot of people, including yourself, these, these groups had, made quite an impact on you. Yoko Morita: Right. That was our social life, really. You know and, and we dated the guys from these other boy' ; s clubs. There was a, the Lancers I think are, are from, from Hyde Park, and the Ro Babes are from Hyde Park. The Lakers, I think are from Waller, or that area. But you know there, they were, and so, it was two or three boy' ; s clubs and two or three women' ; s, girl' ; s clubs that got together. And so, all of us had maybe 10, 12, 15 members, and we would have a dance. There would be, that' ; s a fairly large, you know... And, and, I think we all sort of, when you look back on the couples, we' ; ve all married the kind of people we dated in high school. Anna Takada: You' ; ve mentioned a few of the groups already. Can you remember some of the, the others or... Yoko Morita: Yeah. The Dawnelles were older than us. There was... Gosh, I don' ; t remember all the names. I, if you had asked me about them, I could have remembered them. Gosh, I can' ; t really remember. I know my sister-in-law, who was about eight years older than I, she was in a club also, but I don' ; t know what her name group is, was either. And my daughter' ; s mother-in-law was in a group, but she also is about 10 years older than I. So, the groups were you know, when we got together as a all Chicago group, there were like maybe 15 or 20 years between the difference of the youngest ones and the older ones. Anna Takada: So we have just a few more minutes left. Before we wrap up, I do want to ask about the, the Nichiren Temple. And if you could kind of explain you know if, the, the trajectory of that temple, if you guys moved locations at any point, or... Yoko Morita: Yes. Well the temple on LaSalle Street was our home. We bought the building. My dad and my mom paid for the building. And so, when he retired, he didn' ; t, we didn' ; t really want to give the temple to them. They would have no place to live. So they, my dad started what they call it, a penny bank, and the members dropped in pennies every time they came to Temple, and, and explained in that thingy, that it continues to get $10,000, which is basically nothing, really. And then, some more years, they got $10,000 more. And then my dad, while we were living in Japan, he came and stayed with us for a month, and he toured Japan and collected money, and he collected like... I think $30,000 or $40,000. And then, more came in from Japan after that, and they were able to buy a new building, which the, the temple bought, the members bought. And so, it' ; s over here on Paulina Street. And that, and they came, I think it was in 19-- late ' ; 70s or early ' ; 80s that they established a temple there. And so then, LaSalle Street became home for my parents until they retired, when they sold their house, right? Anna Takada: And, so and it' ; s still on Paulina... Yoko Morita: It' ; s still there. Yes. Yes. Anna Takada: Do, did somebody, after your father' ; s retirement, did someone kind of take over? Yoko Morita: Yes, in fact my father left the, the Chicago temple, but then the priest in Toronto suddenly passed away, so he moved to Toronto by himself. Anna Takada: Your father? Yoko Morita: Mm-hm, for about three years. And he' ; d come home every three months or so for a couple of weekends, ' ; cause we had a priest here at, in Paulina Street, so that' ; s what he did. And then, he retired then he was going to retire, he retired, to come live with us in Florida, ' ; cause we were living in Florida. My husband' ; s with customs, and he was in Florida. And so, he, they came down, but the Portland temple was, the priest left. And he said, " ; I don' ; t want to just sit at--" ; he was still fairly young. He was in his 80s, and he said, " ; I still want to work some more," ; so he went back, but he only, he found out that he could only, not do it anymore. So he just stayed there for I think a year, or a year and a half, and then came down to live with us in Florida permanently. And then, when we moved, my husband moved to, retired, we moved back to Washington DC, because our children were in that area. Florida' ; s too hot, and I didn' ; t like it, so we came back. But that' ; s why you know, my dad retired in 1983. My mom retired in ' ; 83 also, from her flower... Anna Takada: And so, you still have family in Chicago? Yoko Morita: I have one sister. Anna Takada: And so, so has she stayed... Which sister is this? Yoko Morita: Noriko. Anna Takada: Noriko. So the youngest. And did the rest of your siblings, after college or, or high school, did they all come back to Chicago, or stay in Chicago? Yoko Morita: My, after college, my, my younger brother, T-Bone, taught in Chicago for a year and a half, and was a, he' ; s a physical education teacher, and he was, his first assignment was Waller High School. So he was a teacher at Waller High School while my youngest sister was a freshman at Waller High School, so you know she said there was some conflict there. And then, my brother went... From high school, he enlisted in the Army, and he stayed in the Army until he retired. And he ended up living in, near Fort Lewis in Seattle, Washington. And I got married, and we were here in Chicago until 1969. And then, we moved to, we moved to San Diego for a year. Then, we moved to Washington, DC for six months. Then we went to Japan for five years. And then we, then we came back to DC, and then he was assigned to Florida, and he retired down there. So, but I didn' ; t like Florida, and we kept our house in, in the DC area. So we came back and retired there, ' ; cause our kids said to us. " ; You guys stay in Florida, we' ; re not coming to visit you. It' ; s too far from anything." ; Anna Takada: And, as far as... Because it sounds like you' ; ve made a home in several different cities, not just in the U.S., but in the world. When you think of Chicago you know... Yoko Morita: It' ; s still kind of home, you know? In Japanese, it' ; s furusato. Your home. Because we, I, although, to think of it, it' ; s a short, one of the shorter periods of my life, because I came here as 15 and I lived here when we were, when I was about 31. 10 or 12 years, only. Although, maybe it' ; s the second longest, because DC we' ; ve been now almost 30 years. Anna Takada: Certainly over some formative years, I would imagine. Yoko Morita: Yes, yes. And our children, our children were all born here, though, our three children. And then, but they all lived in San Diego for a while for school, and Chicago for a while in school. Five years in Japan, and then finished, in Virginia, their high school years. And they' ; re all now in college, and out, well some of them. Anna Takada: So unfortunately we' ; re, we' ; re really coming to time, but one thing I like to ask people kind of before we wrap up is if there were any kind of, if there' ; s any kind of message or legacy that you could leave with your children and your grandchildren? What' ; s something that you might like to, to leave with them? Yoko Morita: I think I would like to, for them to remember a lot about... Because my mother was a, a ikebana sensei, and my father was a religious leader. I want them to remember a lot of the cultural things from their ancestors, the things, the, the festivals, the meanings of life, the things we do. Also, to go to temple. And so far, there' ; s no Buddhist Nichiren temple in Washington, but both of us, my daughter who lives in Washington, in the DC area and myself, we have a butsudan to which we say our prayers and you know give incense to. And I would like my yonsei grandchildren, to continue that part of our ancestry, and, and so forth. Anna Takada: And are there any final thoughts, or anything that you' ; d like to share before we wrap up? Yoko Morita: I think we had, our particular family had a good life so far, and a lot of it, some of it is because we were in camp and we moved to Chicago and dispersed. And I' ; m sorry that we' ; ve lost our language, a lot of-- and many of the cultural things, because right now, I have a lot of Japanese American friends in the DC area, but they' ; re all Sanseis, you know younger, older Sanseis. And I' ; m the youngest Nisei, and I' ; m the only one in the group that speaks Japanese, and I, I think that' ; s sad, but what can you, that' ; s the way it goes. So, I would like for us to be able to remember the Japanese culture. Though we live in America, there' ; s a lot of good from the Japanese culture. Anna Takada: Well thank you so much for coming in and sharing. Yoko Morita: Thank you. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MoritaYoko20180904.xml MoritaYoko20180904.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Sort Priority
5400
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MoritaYoko20180904.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Morita, Yoko (9/4/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Yoko Morita, a nisei born in Canada in 1935, discusses her family's pre-WWII movements between Vancouver, Japan, and Portland and their forced removal to Minidoka after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. After incarceration, the family returned to Portland before eventually moving to Chicago. The daughter of a Nichiren Buddhist priest, she shares memories of life in Minidoka and of the Japanese American community in Portland in the immediate postwar era, particularly the social events that took place in her father's temple. She also recounts her arrival in Chicago as a teenager in 1951, including her participation in a girls club, the Chicago nisei social scene, experiences at Waller High School, and employment at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. Also notable are her memories of assisting her mother, the founder of the Mishokai ikebana school in Chicago. Having lived in many places as an adult, including Japan, Florida, and the Washington, D.C. area, she expresses an attachment to Chicago as her "furusato" or hometown. She concludes her interview by expressing a desire for future generations to know and appreciate Japanese culture.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/06d024e3b3fc4d433fa54bb0168baed4.png
cfc9a8cfa6b5bf92b2eb1117eeaa6f39
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Oya, Merry
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OyaMerry20181005.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Great Northern Railway
Whitefish, MT
Seattle, WA
Gresham, OR
Portland Assembly Center
Stables
Tule Lake
Dust
Housing Conditions
Employment
Chicago Resettlers Committee
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/5/2018 Oya, Merry (10/5/2018) 1:51:03 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Great Northern Railway Whitefish, MT Seattle, WA Gresham, OR Portland Assembly Center Stables Tule Lake Dust Housing Conditions Employment Chicago Resettlers Committee Oya, Merry Takada, Anna video 1:|12(5)|29(5)|44(9)|60(3)|76(15)|84(1)|96(9)|111(10)|122(19)|142(3)|162(13)|176(10)|190(5)|204(11)|221(5)|238(3)|250(13)|269(8)|277(19)|290(9)|304(14)|323(10)|335(4)|352(15)|372(4)|385(9)|398(3)|414(8)|426(5)|440(9)|451(7)|461(3)|469(3)|485(11)|497(3)|507(1)|520(2)|532(4)|536(2)|551(13)|564(3)|572(14)|581(11)|598(8)|608(6)|622(9)|634(13)|651(1)|663(3)|675(12)|684(13)|697(16)|713(2)|727(13)|749(5)|763(10)|771(2)|781(3)|796(8)|810(8)|821(6)|832(13)|846(7)|858(2)|870(3)|887(8)|896(3)|915(6)|929(14)|944(3)|953(7)|964(7)|973(11)|991(8)|1002(1)|1027(2)|1039(5)|1047(16)|1062(16)|1074(6)|1088(12)|1103(13)|1119(16)|1137(8)|1161(3)|1188(3)|1206(2)|1218(4)|1232(8)|1244(5)|1258(4)|1274(4)|1295(14)|1303(10)|1323(1)|1338(3)|1356(3)|1377(13)|1390(9)|1406(3)|1418(8)|1427(6)|1442(5)|1454(14)|1465(8)|1475(4)|1482(8)|1492(6)|1502(2)|1516(13) 0 https://vimeo.com/601368732/84264f8aef Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601368732?h=84264f8aef" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Merry Oya, a nisei born in Montana in 1924, spent her early childhood in the railroad town of Whitefish before moving to Seattle, WA and later to Portland, OR. She shares memories from her childhood, including the early death of her father and the many jobs her mother pursued in order to provide for her three children. She also recounts the experiences of forced removal first to the Portland Assembly Center, then Tule Lake, and finally Minidoka. With encouragement from friends who had already resettled in Chicago, Merry's mother moved the family from Minidoka to Chicago as quickly as possible, settling initially on the South Side. Merry describes the challenges of cramped housing conditions and discrimination, but also assistance assistance received from the Chicago Resettlers Committee and her mother's success as a seamstress in the Chicago garment industry.The family eventually moved to Chicago's North Side, first near Wrigley Field and later in the Ravenswood neighborhood. Particularly notable are her memories of helping her mother, an issei with limited English abilities, learn to navigate the public transit system in their new city, and her memories of kind neighbors who stored the family's furniture during the war. At the end of the interview, Merry expresses her desire for young people to remember the history of incarceration but also to learn about the contributions Japanese Americans have made to the city of Chicago. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Merry Oya as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History project. The interview is being conducted on October 5th, 2018 at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Merry Oya is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you just state your full name? Merry Oya: Merry. Well, I' ; m just going to use my initial Merry Y. Oya. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? Merry Oya: I was born, Troy, Montana, March 29th, 1924. Anna Takada: And, the... kind of the way that these conversations will go is we like to hear a little bit of background about your family and then hear about what happened to your family during the war, where you all went, and then like I mentioned, resettlement in Chicago. So to start, can you tell me a little bit about your, your parents, what their names were and where they were from? Merry Oya: My father and mother, were, they' ; re from Japan. Do you want to know the location? Anna Takada: That' ; d be great! Merry Oya: From the Wakayama district area. Anna Takada: Both of them? Merry Oya: Both of them. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And what, what were their names? Merry Oya: My father' ; s name is Tomekichi Oya, and my mother' ; s name is Riki Oya, but she used to be, before she was married, her maiden name was Riki Ueyama. Anna Takada: And how did they end up in Montana? Or, or I guess, can you tell me about when and why they came to the US? Merry Oya: Well, my, my father came first. He wasn' ; t married at the time. My father came first because as, as did so many other Japanese men, but, he had an opportunity to work on the railroads. And I think many of the Japanese men who came worked on the railroads. Anna Takada: Do you know what year or around what time that was? Merry Oya: No, I don' ; t. I mean, if I' ; d known you were going to ask me those-- I do have some data at home, but I don' ; t think I can give you the dates. Anna Takada: That' ; s not a problem. It' ; s a very specific question. So do y--, like as far as ballpark, was that early 1900s or? Merry Oya: Oh, oh yes. Yeah, I think it was in the probably 1800s? Yeah I think so, because my, my father came first, worked, and then he went back to Japan and then he, I don' ; t know if, I don' ; t know if it was ar--, it didn' ; t sound that way, like an arranged marriage. But then they were married and then they both came back to the States. Anna Takada: So did they marry in Japan? Merry Oya: They married in Japan. Anna Takada: And when he first came, do you know where he stayed or where in the U.S. he came to? Merry Oya: Well, I think most of them when they came to Japan, they came in by way of Seattle, Washington, because they came by ship. Anna Takada: And did he, did he move to Montana from there? Or where did he go from-- Merry Oya: Oh he w--, I think he went directly to Montana where he, where the, where the job was awaiting him. Anna Takada: And when he and your mother came, did they go back to Montana? Merry Oya: Actually, what happened was my, my father continued to work on the railroad, but my mother, I, I think she first stayed in Seattle and then she moved to a city in Montana because she, she couldn' ; t travel with my father because he was actually working in the railroads. And it was all, I, I guess, it was all men employed because they were laying out the railroads for the, for the trains. So it was all... My father, I guess, I, I wouldn' ; t call it a gang or a railroad gang group, but it was all men who were working, working on the railroad, laying out the rails for the trains and my mother found a job in Montana where she worked as a cook for well these, for a group of men who worked, she, she, excuse me, lived in a place, in a city called Whitefish, which was, in, in those days, Whitefish was known as a town where when the trains came through, they, they changed engines. So there were many, at that time, many Japanese working in that area too. So my, and they stayed at a place they used to call a, was more like a, well I think they, I think that was referred to as a rooming house for the men that worked there. And my mother got a job working as a cook. Anna Takada: But at that time did you say that she was not staying with your father? Merry Oya: Right. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So it was, so do know, was your father then staying in a rooming house separately? Merry Oya: No, no, no. He, the men that worked on the railroad, they traveled with the, with the work. Anna Takada: Oh, I see. And so at some point, I imagine they were reunited? Merry Oya: Right. Well then he, I don' ; t know how it happened, but then he ended up in, in Whitefish where my mother was. And I think he lived in Whitefish for a while. And, and at that time I have a brother and a sister. Anna Takada: And were they-- Merry Oya: I' ; m the oldest and my sister was next to me. And my, my brother at that time was, I was, he was still a baby. Anna Takada: So they had you in 1925. And then, and that was in Montana? Merry Oya: Yeah, I was born 1924. So my sister must have been born 1926. She was two years younger than me. But my brother was, I think he was born in 1930s, ' ; cause he was much, he was much younger than my sister. Anna Takada: And is, is Troy far from Whitefish? Merry Oya: I think so, but now I mean when I tell people where I was born, I can only say that it was really a small town. And in fact it may, may not even exist now. Anna Takada: So very, very small town. Merry Oya: Yes. But I was born in Mo-- in Troy, but my sister and my brother, they were born in Whitefish. Anna Takada: Okay. Was that because of the move? Merry Oya: Well, well because my father was working in the railroads, so I' ; m not quite sure how that ended up, but I know that-- because early on my mother was able to travel with the railroad too. So I think that' ; s what happened. That' ; s how I was born in Troy. But, but then after that my mother returned to Whitefish and she remained as a, as a cook to these people. And the three of us, the children, stayed in Whitefish for a while. Anna Takada: And was that while your father was still moving the railroad? Merry Oya: Mhmm. Yes. Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit more about what, what Troy was like and what it was growing up there? Merry Oya: I can' ; t tell you anything about Troy because I actually I-- Anna Takada: Oh, I' ; m sorry, Whitefish. Right. Merry Oya: ...I, I wasn' ; t really living there at the time. Anna Takada: Sure. I' ; m sorry, Whitefish. Merry Oya: But Whitefish was a small town, had not too many Japanese that were living, living there. But it was big enough that the, the laundry, the, the Japanese were pretty successful in that town because I remember the laundry was owned by a Japanese, the hotel was owned by a Japanese, there was a big farm that was owned by a Japanese. So I guess the, the few Japanese that lived there did, did, did quite well. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Merry Oya: And I, my, and then, but in the interim, my father died early too. So my mother was more or less keeping us together. And I, I think I finished, I think I stayed in Whitefish until I finished my sixth grade, through my sixth grade. And, and then, and then at that point, I think my mother realized that she couldn' ; t make a living, living in Whitefish. So we moved to Seattle. Anna Takada: After you completed the sixth grade? Merry Oya: Mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: What were, what were some of the main demographics of Whitefish? You mentioned there were a couple of Japanese American families? Merry Oya: Well, Whitefish was a, as I said, it was a railroad town, but it was a, it was a small town. In, in fact, right now, this is many, many years after now, Whitefish is now like a resort area because it has surrounded by mountains, lake, fishing. I mean that' ; s that' ; s, now that' ; s all taking place. But then at, when, at the time I lived there, it was all there. But we, we didn' ; t think of it as a, a, one of those resort areas. And I, because I know we, we were near a lake and we used to go swimming in the summertime and then, and in the winter we used to go sledding. Anna Takada: And... Merry Oya: Well, you have to realize too, when I was young, you know, things were different entirely. (laughs) Not only the city, but you know the whole world was kind of different at the time too, so... Anna Takada: Do you mean as far as like activities as a child? Merry Oya: Activities, and yeah. Anna Takada: What were some other activities that you remember doing as a, as a kid in Whitefish? Merry Oya: Well, actually there wasn' ; t, there wasn' ; t too much, but I think one thing I remember is, I don' ; t remember discrimination, and, and it may be because there were so few of us living there, but I know that when we were in school, all the children, you know acce-- not accepted us, but they, I think they thought we were just part of the, part of the group there. And I don' ; t ever recall being discriminated in any way while we were living there. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Were there any other kids or, or families, minority families? Merry Oya: Well there were, I, I think, as I said, there were a few Japan--, maybe there were about six, six or eight Japanese families that lived in Whitefish. And I think, I don' ; t know how long they were... When we left Whitefish, they, I know that the families that were still there were there for a long time Anna Takada: After you left? Merry Oya: Right. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And how about family life? Did you grow up religious at all? Merry Oya: Well, my mother was a Buddhist from the beginning and I, I started attending a, a Presbyterian church. And I think, and I, I' ; m thinking back, I think the only reason I attended that was the minister of the Presbyterian church happened to be visiting the Japanese families. And I, I think, I mean this is, this is my version, I think he thought that the kids were growing to be heathens. So, so he invited us to attend his, his church and that' ; s how I, I started. But then I enjoyed that because the, the, the kids were friendly and the teachers there were very nice. And I remember going to a party they had, so actually I had a lot of, despite my mother' ; s hardship, I still had a nice, you know, nice childhood, in my younger days. Anna Takada: What makes you say or, or think that, about the priest' ; s intentions? What makes you think that-- Merry Oya: Of the what? Anna Takada: --that he addressed... The reasons why he addressed Japanese families? Merry Oya: Why I mentioned them? Anna Takada: Or you mentioned that you thought that he was possibly reaching out to Japanese families because, to try to prevent people from growing up to be heathens? Merry Oya: Well, well I mean that' ; s my version because he was, he was visiting, I think he wanted to make sure that the kids weren' ; t just running wild. You know, maybe Sunday school was a good place for them to be. Be-because now that I recall, my sister, I don' ; t think she, I don' ; t think she went to church, and my brother was too young to be attending church anyway. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And what year or at what age did your father pass away? Merry Oya: I think, my, my-- The age of my father? I think he was about fif-- forty-- 47 or anyway he, he, I would say passed pretty young because the only one in my family that remembers my father, I' ; m the only one that remembers my father, my sister barely, and my brother didn' ; t know him at all. Anna Takada: So it sounds like your mother was raising-- Merry Oya: Yeah, my mother. Anna Takada: ...you and your siblings. Merry Oya: Mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: And growing up, did you... Were you speaking Japanese at home, or what languages were you-- Merry Oya: Well, well at that time my mother didn' ; t know English too well, but, so she spoke Japanese. And because she spoke Japanese, the children pretty much understood what, you know, the conversation that was going on. Anna Takada: Okay. So you mentioned in sixth grade your family moved to Seattle. Can you tell me more about the move and maybe what kind of work your mom did? Merry Oya: Well, my mother, b-because she was a, needed to support herself and children, my mother knew a couple of good friends in Seattle who encouraged her to come to Seattle. So we moved, and my mother found an apartment and she found... I think the first, I think the first job she found was helping, got a job at a cleaners. And then I know she had several jobs and she also had found a job because my mother was a, was a good cook. She also found a, a job at a home where the, the family, the mother had passed away. So they needed somebody to do their, not domestic work, but to do their cooking and things like that. And I know my mother had several different jobs. Anna Takada: So sounds like she was just trying to, to make a living to, to raise three kids? Merry Oya: And in the summer, Seattle, maybe you knew this already, but it was a big vegetable and fruit growing area. So in the summertime the farmers needed workers. So that' ; s what my mother and the, and the, and the children, we went to these different places where they needed farm workers. Anna Takada: One thing, I, I actually want to quickly go back to Whitefish for a second because... So you went to a Presbyterian church, though your mother was Buddhist and it sounds like there probably weren' ; t enough families or people practicing Buddhism for a church? Merry Oya: Oh, no, because all the Japanese families, the few families that were there, I don' ; t think, none of them, the adults anyway, went to church. And I imagine they were all Buddhist too. Anna Takada: So in that case, I imagine you probably didn' ; t go to Japanese school or anything like that either? Merry Oya: Right. But my, but my mother, she wanted to make sure that her, the children knew some Japanese, so she did teach us some Japanese. Well, I mean, we knew some of the words, but she taught us how to write Japanese. So, and I guess it was sufficient that when we, when we moved to Seattle, well you may already know this, but the, the Japanese who lived in these Seattle and town, you know, most of the children went to Japanese school after regular-- after attending the regular school. Well, fortunately my mother, I guess, taught us enough that I, I ended up in the fifth grade in the Japanese school. So I was really surprised that I could do that. Anna Takada: Mhmm. That is very impressive, to be able to just jump right in. Merry Oya: Yeah (laughs) Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember your first impressions of Seattle when you moved there? Merry Oya: Mmm... My first impression? Anna Takada: Was it very different from Whitefish or? Merry Oya: Well, when I, when we lived in Montana, it, it was, we were just surrounded by mountains and lakes. And when we moved to Se-- Whitefish, the area, the atmosphere itself was, I don' ; t think was too different because you were still... You could see in the mountain, you could see the lakes, and so I would say that maybe it was, could have been different because we were in, as I said, in the railroad town and we used to see the trains coming through town. And I, I guess as a, as a child, I wasn' ; t thinking too, too much about things like that. Anna Takada: Sure. And as a, a child in Seattle, were there any new kind of activities? You mentioned that you were working on the farm? Merry Oya: Oh, that was in the summer. Anna Takada: Only in the summertime? Merry Oya: Summer, yeah. Anna Takada: And how about the demographics of Seattle at that time? Merry Oya: Well... Anna Takada: I would imagine it was a bit more people in general. Merry Oya: Oh yeah, a lot more people. Oh, in fact, in fact now that you mention it, I went, I started seventh grade and I was in an area and then-- and, and I saw a lot more people in Seattle, but I saw a lot more Asians too. And, and what really struck me was when I started seventh grade was, the, the room, seventh grade classroom I was in, it was, except for one Caucasian, everyone was an Asian, which was, they were mostly Japanese and a few Chinese. And, and, and not seeing too many Asians you know where I, where I came from, I was really bowled over to see so many. (laughs) Anna Takada: Sure, yeah. That must have been a first for you? Merry Oya: Yeah. But, but that school also, I guess, because it was in... Maybe it was a Japanese... Maybe, maybe many Japanese that lived in the area? I don' ; t know, but I know the whole school was pretty much predominantly Asian. Anna Takada: Did that have any kind of impact on how you saw your own identity or did you not really think about it? Merry Oya: No, it, it was just that I, when I saw so many Japane--, you know not, not seeing hardly any Japanese before and I saw all these kids around me were all Asians. Anna Takada: What part of, do you remember what part of Seattle you were living in at that time? Merry Oya: Oh, not really. Not really. Anna Takada: But it sounds like there were plenty of other Japanese and Chinese families? Merry Oya: Uh-huh, yeah. I think there were quite a few Chi-- Japanese living in Seattle, because at that time they already had a like a Japanesetown and a Chinatown... But, I remember those two areas. Anna Takada: Let' ; s see. And so, did you, were you still in Seattle through high school then as well? Merry Oya: I went to high school through, I went seventh grade, junior high, and I went to one year of high school and then we, we moved to Oregon. You know, my mother had to go look for a job, so we ended up on a farm. She knew someo--, she knew a family that owned a farm, so we moved to Oregon. So my mother became like a farmer again and, and be-because we lived on a farm you know, we were able to get plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables. And so you know, that helped my mother. But then for us, for the children too, we were able to work, work, because we could do some, some things that would be helpful. So, so we were on the, we stayed at the farm until the war, war started. Anna Takada: What kind of farm was it? Merry Oya: It was mostly a truck farm, but it was mostly fruits, strawberries and berries. Anna Takada: And so you mentioned that you were, on the farm, you were able to help out more. In your mother' ; s various other positions before that in Seattle, did you help out in any kind of way or do you have any memories of helping her? Merry Oya: You mean as far as economy is concerned, with money or? Anna Takada: Or, or you know if, if she was at the cleaners or, you know, if there was any way you all helped out? Merry Oya: No. Well, when we were in Oregon, we just, we were at the farm all that time while I was in the high school for two years. Anna Takada: And as far as-- So it sounds like the kind of the trajectory of your family, it was with the help of friends that your mother knew, were these friends from Japan? Merry Oya: Well, I think they originally were. Well, these, the people that own, that...well they didn' ; t actually they didn' ; t really own the, the land. You know they couldn' ; t own land at that time. But so it must have been typically you know a lot of Japanese had farm, farmlands to work, so this person had a big area so he had a lot of people working for him too, farm hands. Anna Takada: Mhmm. What were some of your, your duties working on the farm? Merry Oya: Well we, after school we had to help with whatever farm work. I mean, if you work on a farm, you' ; re always working, doing some things. Anna Takada: How did you, how did you, as a kid, or I guess a teenager at this point, how did you feel about the farm work? Did you enjoy it or? Merry Oya: Well, I didn' ; t mind it. The only farm work I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really like was strawberries, because straw--, when you' ; re, when you' ; re picking strawberry, you' ; re on your knees all the time. You know you' ; re not standing or sitting, you' ; re on your, you know you' ; re squatting. So for me that was really something that I really didn' ; t care for. And I still have memories of when I used to work in the strawberry patches. Anna Takada: And as kids, were you all earning money that way? Merry Oya: Oh yeah, we, we were, we were paid for whatever we were doing. For instance, if you, if you' ; re, if you' ; re working the berries, you know you, if you, whatever quantity you were picking, you got paid for that amount that you picked so... And it was the same as the adults except that since we were slower, we didn' ; t get much as the adults were. Anna Takada: Sure. And where were you, what was your living situation at that time? Merry Oya: Well, we lived in a, a place well, because they had other workers and they, and I think these buildings were called bunk houses. And the workers, they, I think each family was afforded... Well it was like a cabin and I think there were like three rooms. So it was like a bedroom, couple of bedrooms and kitchen. And the rooms were small, but it, it was, they were comfortable. Anna Takada: And so I imagine, it must have been on this farm, well you said it was on this farm when the war broke out that you, your family was living. Can you tell me about your, your memories of the war starting, and... Merry Oya: Oh, well, I know that we were all work, working. I don' ; t, I forgot what we were doing. But anyway, we were working and then we heard somebody came in and said that Japan started the war. And of course we were all shocked to hear, hear the news about that. And then, so then, I think that, I, well especially the Issei' ; s were wondering what was going to be happening to them, because it was a war against their, the former country. So I know for a couple days there, there was anxiety as to what was going to be happening to the Japanese. And then right after that we heard that about the evacuation, about... But then, that' ; s when, you know, the treatment of the Japanese got a little bit offhand and we were told that we had to leave. And of course, my, since my mother didn' ; t really own anything, so to speak. For her it wasn' ; t so much of a tragedy of, of economy or being able to support herself because we, we all had to leave at the same time with, with whatever we were able to take with us. Anna Takada: Just a, a couple of quick questions. The, so the, the man who, he didn' ; t own the property but he was Japanese, the, the head person. And as far as the farm hands and other people on the farm, were they mostly Japanese? Merry Oya: They were all Japanese. Anna Takada: All Japanese? Merry Oya: Japanese, yeah. Anna Takada: And you mentioned that after the start of the war, the treatment of Japanese changed? Merry Oya: Well, well, as, as far as attitude I wasn' ; t too aware of it. Because where, where we were across, across the road, it was a family, Caucasian family. They, they didn' ; t really own a farm except they had their own farm, but it wasn' ; t big enough I guess for them to hire people. But a very nice family, I know that when the restrictions came and we weren' ; t allowed to be out you know a certain time of the day or at night, this family had their own, just for their own purpose, they had a cow so they used to have milk and they had eggs. So what, what we, what we used to, what they used to do was they would sneak over across the street and give us milk and eggs and whatever. I mean, they were really, really... When I hear about stories about other people and I think about this family, you know I' ; m, I' ; m so appreciative that, that they were that way. Anna Takada: Do you remember their names? Merry Oya: Well, their name was Carlin. I remember them. And it was a Mr. Carlin and his wife and then they had two boys. And the boys, the boys, the younger boy was about the same age as my brother and they went to the same school, and they got along well because be-before all this happened, they used to go across the street and play with each other, and... But the reason I say they were so kind was when we, you know later, later on, after we were settled in the camps, you know we were permitted to, or maybe this is after we resettled in Chicago, we were permitted to receive some of the things that were stored. And we, and they had, the Carlin family had restored for us, we didn' ; t have too much furniture, but a, a double bed and a dresser. And, and they kept that for us, the Carlin family kept those two things for us. And then when we were able to receive the furniture, they, I think the government shipped them. But nonetheless, you know the Carlin family took care of everything. And then, and then I remember the very first Christmas in the camp, we got a, a package. It was, it wasn' ; t really a Christmas when I opened it, it was holly leaves because in the winter that area grew tons of holly with the berries. And anyway, we got this and I was really so shook up to see that. (laughs) Anna Takada: A very kind gesture. Merry Oya: Yeah, mhmm. Anna Takada: So... Okay. So you learned about Pearl Harbor while you were on the farm, did... And you, and you mentioned that treatment in general, treatment of Japanese was, it kinda, it worsened I guess, after? Merry Oya: Well, actually I didn' ; t hear too much about you know... I mean ' ; cause I' ; ve heard of other stories about signs in the stores and all that kind of thing. ' ; Cause, since we didn' ; t have access to go into town, I don' ; t know if they had signs that said you know, discriminatory type of... But I know at the school, because we were still going to school, the, the, the student body didn' ; t treat us any differently. At least I didn' ; t notice that. And I know that the day when we actually left, when the buses took us to the, to the assembly center, the, the high school that I was going to, the, the student body came out on the street and, and waved goodbye to us. Anna Takada: Wow. And actually, you know what, I' ; m going to, if you don' ; t mind, I' ; m just going to adjust the microphone real quickly. It' ; s getting a little scratchy. Pardon me, sorry about that, let' ; s try this. These things are so temperamental sometimes, I have to get it in the right spot. That should be okay. Are you still comfortable? Merry Oya: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: Okay. Okay, so we were talking about when, when your family actually left for evacuation, but first I, I want to ask you, do you remember like first getting word about the evacuation and hearing about it? Because you were, you were a teenager, so... Merry Oya: Mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: Do you remember your, your own personal response or reactions to that? Merry Oya: Well, all I know is that, and then we heard on the radio, somebody heard on the radio about this, the war, that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. But, so I think all the Issei' ; s were really concerned about that and we were wondering, I think they were wondering what was going to be, what the government was going to do. And then-- Anna Takada: So, were there rumors going around, or... Merry Oya: Well, I, I didn' ; t hear any ru-- I mean, there might have been, but maybe for the Issei' ; s or the older, there might have been concern, more concern. But I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really hear that. And neither did my mother, since she was just a worker there. But, but we did hear eventually, that, first, first thing we heard were if you owned any items like camera or radio, what, whatever, that those were going to be confiscated by the government. So I think that was more or less the first thing we heard that, as far as the government' ; s action was concerned. But, but then after that, and I, I don' ; t, and I don' ; t really remember how it came about, but then I, I think we were told by the, the man who owned, that was working the farm, he told us that the government was about to eventually move, move us. And then we had this order about packing everything in 10 days, or one week, or whatever it was, and, and I think that was, I think that part was the most disturbing. And for my family for my mother, as my mother said, she said she was lucky she didn' ; t have too many possessions that she had to really get rid of. Because, if you, if you own, owned the farm or anything connected, you know, it was more of a loss for them because so many farmers lost their land and so, so many other possessions, and, because you were limited in the amount, in the things, the, amount of things you could carry. So anyways, I said my mother, although there was a loss, still she, she realized that her loss wasn' ; t as great as the, the people that she was working, the farm that she, the owner of the farm that she was working for. Anna Takada: And so I, you mentioned that you wouldn' ; t really go into town and I know that' ; s how you know, oftentimes the government was posting signs to notify folks of this, but it sounds like the, the head farmer kind of reported back to you all to communicate the news, or... Merry Oya: Well, I don' ; t, I don' ; t know how, I, I, I think that the authorities, the federal authorities probably came around too, to these various farms, Japanese farms and to tell them that, what' ; s going to happen. And then so the, the owners would in turn tell us, but, but since, since I never got to go in town I don' ; t know what the, what the, how they treated the Japanese customers if they went into town, because I didn' ; t hear anything about that part. Anna Takada: And I' ; m not sure if you mentioned, but what was the name of the town in Oregon? Merry Oya: Oh, Gresham. Anna Takada: Gresham. Merry Oya: Which is, which is now, Gresham was a farm town, but Gresham is now, like so many other areas, is, is a suburb of Portland. Anna Takada: So your, you and your family had to, to pack your things and you left the furniture as you mentioned with the family across the street. So where did you all go from there, or I g-- what, what happened next, after? Merry Oya: Well, then that' ; s when we, we were, we got the notice about, we were going to be put into a, a someplace in Portland. We were going to be all bused to Portland. So we had to put our things together and be ready at a, on a certain date, which wasn' ; t, which, which was a, wasn' ; t too much time for packing. Anna Takada: You said a, a week, or... Merry Oya: I think yeah. I know, I know, it' ; s so limited, I mean how much can you do in a week, or two weeks, or whatever? Because, because you could carry, you could only take with you whatever you can carry. Anna Takada: Right. And I, I imagine too, just having to prepare to kind of uproot in general, there are a number of steps. Merry Oya: Yeah because, there was, actually my, some people had to help my mother get, get her stuff ready for, for her family. So it was, it was kind of an ordeal for my mother, but somehow she managed. But, but this, and then when we were told to be ready at a certain time or, and be ready at a certain place, when we got there we saw all these Japanese families with their belongings. And I, I kinda think that maybe at that point it, it kinda hit us that you know, we were really losing, losing our... Well, I, I even though I was a teenager at the time, I was thinking that, " ; I wonder if we' ; re ever going to be coming back here?" ; And, and you know, and I also was wondering, " ; What' ; s going to happen to us after we-- I mean, what' ; s in Portland? They' ; re going to send us to Portland, what' ; s in Portland?" ; Anna Takada: So there was, no one really had any kind of idea? Merry Oya: Well, there, there might have been, there might have been, but it was, at least I wasn' ; t aware of it. But I know that the person in ch-- that was operating the farm, at least he told everybody that was working for him what was, what was about to happen, so we did what we thought we were told. Anna Takada: Do you remember having any conversations within your family about what was happening, either with your mom or your younger siblings? Because I, your brother was much younger. Merry Oya: Yeah, well no. So we followed along with the owner, whoever, whatever they were going to do, my mother was going to follow along with them. Even though we didn' ; t know where we were, where we were goi-- I mean, we knew where we were going, to Portland, but we didn' ; t know where or, or what' ; s there. So my mother just followed along with them. Anna Takada: So what happened when you arrived to, to Portland? Merry Oya: Well then we found out that we were going to be in an, this assembly center, which was really... What, what do they call those places where they keep horses? Anna Takada: A racetrack? Merry Oya: A rac-- yeah, it' ; s a race track place. And I wouldn' ; t call it a room, but it was, I guess it' ; s one of those stable rooms where the horses stayed. So they just dumped all our stuff into that, into that area and I... and told us that that' ; s where we were going to be staying... And I didn' ; t hear for how long or anything but that was going to, but, but they said it was going to be temporary, but we, we didn' ; t know what that meant by temporary, whether we were going to a better housing arrangement or if we, if we were going to be moving on again. Anna Takada: Can you describe the, the space where you and your family were, were staying? Merry Oya: Well, all I can remember is that it was like a one room place and I think, I think there was, I think there were cots there, but I don' ; t think there was too much furniture. And at, at least I, if there were, I would probably remember the, I would remember the type of furniture. So I, I don' ; t really remember t-- because in, actually we were in Portland, but not too long because we were immediately evacuated to Tule Lake. Anna Takada: So how long do you think you stayed in the assembly center? Merry Oya: Well, it just, it just seemed like maybe several weeks? And well, we, we heard, maybe it was a rumor, but we heard that eventu--, and, and all the people that lived in Portland ended up in that same assembly center. And we, we heard that eventually everybody that was in that assembly center would eventually go to Tule Lake. We heard that, so, so our, our group decided as long as we were going to be going to Tule Lake, we, we couldn' ; t take the condition in, in Portland, we decided that we would be, we would join the group that' ; s going down to Tule Lake. And so because we had that opportunity, we didn' ; t stay in Portland too long, but that was another train, train ride from Portland Assembly Center out to Tule Lake. But then we found out later that the Portland people were not going to Tule Lake. I don' ; t, I forget where they ended up, but... Well, I think they went to another assembly center close to, close to Portland. Yeah, I think so. So anyway, we ended up in Tule Lake after a long train ride which was miserable. They asked us to close the windows, the blinds so we, we couldn' ; t see out and they had soldiers in our car guarding us. Anna Takada: What were your, your feelings at the time or your reactions to kind of... Merry Oya: For the treatment we were getting? Anna Takada: Yeah. Merry Oya: Well, I, I, I know my, my mother was really miserable about all this, but I, ' ; cause I, I thought since we would be moving anyway, I thought maybe I could, I could tolerate it for a little while anyway. And as, as I said, since we were in Portland for only a short time anyway, I thought the opportunity-- And, and my mother thought so too, the opportunity to move out into supposedly more better housing and all that. Anna Takada: And how about your, your feelings or reactions when you had first arrived to Portland assembly center? Merry Oya: Tule L-- In, in Portland? You know at the assembly center? Anna Takada: Because that was really, that was like your first day, and a pretty drastic change from... Merry Oya: Well, because, well they, it was organized so that there was like a dining hall and it was organized according to whatever group you were in. And, and I, and you know that, that to this day, I can' ; t remember that the, the bathing and shower facilities. And sometimes I wonder, did I really take a bath while I was there? Anna Takada: Right, it might be more telling that you can' ; t remember even. Merry Oya: Yeah, because otherwise I was thinking that I would remember what the facilities look like. But I know that off and on I would think about that, and I think, gee, did I take a bath? (laughs) Anna Takada: It was only a couple weeks. (laughs) How old was your brother at this time, would you say? Merry Oya: My brother must have been about... He was going to school, fir--, sec-- he must have been in first or second grade because I know that the school that he was attending, it was a, it was one of these country schools and it was like a two room. ' ; Cause I know like the first row was the first graders, the second row was the second graders, that kind of a setup. Anna Takada: A schoolhouse. Merry Oya: Yeah. So he must have been about 6, 7, 8? 6, 7, 8... Anna Takada: And you said that I think it was your third year of high school, that was the year of the evacuation? Merry Oya: Third year. Mhmm. Anna Takada: And so would it have been like in the springtime? Probably April that year? Merry Oya: The evacuation? Anna Takada: Does that sound about right? Merry Oya: Yeah, because we, we more or less were finishing our grades, so... Anna Takada: So then what ha-- when you arrived to the assembly center, did you continue school, or... Merry Oya: We, no, not, not in the assembly center. I don' ; t, I don' ; t think it was planned that way because the government was probably thinking that it' ; s going to be temporary anyway. So I mean, that' ; s, that was my thinking about that, because except for the, the dining facilities to feed the people, that, that was the only organized thing that I can remember in the camp. Anna Takada: Okay. So you took the train to, to Tule Lake. Can you tell me more about arriving to Tule Lake, what that was like? Merry Oya: Well, it was a, I guess we didn' ; t, first of all, I guess we didn' ; t really know what we were supposed to be doing. We, we got off, we had this train ride from Portland to the Tule Lake, and it was, it was a long ride too, and hardly any facilities. But eventually, we did get to Tule Lake. But there, again, we were assigned the barracks that we were, we were to go to. And when we got into our assigned barracks, we discovered there were cots for the beds, and I think there might have been chairs, and maybe a table. I don' ; t, I don' ; t really remember that too clearly. But, and it, and it w--, it was such a disappointing thing, because it was, the place was bare. And I think, I think they had blankets on the, on the cots, but, but that was about it. And then, they had a, I think it was, I think it was like a potbelly stove, and I, I think there were a couple chairs, but to me it was such a small room for... Even though there was just one adult and three children, it to me it seemed like such a small room for a family. And it was hard getting settled in a, you know in, in an unfamiliar arrangement. Anna Takada: And you were still with, you had gone with Tule Lake with folks from the farm, so they were, were they nearby? Merry Oya: Not, not near, not that... But we were in the, because they were by barracks. They were in the, and, and the barracks composed, composed, the ward consisted of barracks, but this family was in another barrack, in another area-- but in the same area as us, so at least we could see them. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, do you know about what time of year this was that you would have arrived? Merry Oya: Oh, well I would think it might have been during the summer, because it' ; s right after we finished school. I was at Portland, so it probably was in the summer? Anna Takada: And um-- Merry Oya: Because I think later on, they were talking about starting a school for the, for the people that needed the schooling, or the education. And I think that was probably in the summertime they were talking about that. Anna Takada: And so, for a, a teenager, what was kind of like your daily life like in camp at Tule Lake? Merry Oya: After we got, after we got to Tule Lake? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Merry Oya: Well, it was organized in such a way that one, one area of the ward, where the other barracks were, by then they were trying to have some kind of a management system for the, for the camp. And so for each ward, there was like a manager, who more or less was a, was a person you should go to for information, or whatever. And he, he' ; s one who looked, looked, made sure that everybody was settled and... Which was, really, a big, big job for him, but anyway, we got settled, but... It, it was really, it was, I mean, I know so many people managed, but it was really, it was hard to get settled in a place where you don' ; t have, you, you barely brought your own bedding, for one thing, and other necessities that you needed. So in the, in the beginning it was really hard for I think most of the people that came to camp. Anna Takada: How did people address those kinds of issues? Merry Oya: Well, I think we all did the same thing, we had to... And, and then, well typically, dust storms, which was another, another thing that we, we were never used to. And the, these barracks were constructed in such a way that it was not seal proof, so that even though your windows were closed, your doors were closed, sand would still come. And it, if you were sleeping during the night, you might wake up with sand on your b-blanket. It was really, yeah, I remember the sand. Anna Takada: And so, there was talk of starting the, the schools up, did you eventually end up going to school? Merry Oya: Well, I, I was a senior then, and they were already talking about opening a school. But then they were recruiting for teachers, and I know some, some of them were probably certified teachers, but then they didn' ; t have enough people to be teaching, so I, I know there were quite a few college-aged students or people, that were actually doing some teaching too. Anna Takada: And, so did you, yourself, go back to, or continue, school for your final year of high school? Merry Oya: Do you mean after we left camp? Anna Takada: No, in camp. Merry Oya: Well, we I went to, we, they, they did organize the camp, so that it was... I guess if you, so, you still had your specialty, what, whatever course that you wanted to take, they still apparently had teachers that could teach things like that. But, actually, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t think, I didn' ; t feel I got much of an education in camp. Anna Takada: Just the quality wasn' ; t there, or... Merry Oya: Yeah, I think so. And, I sometimes felt that the teachers, especially the, the Caucasian teachers that were there, they, they must have been hard up to get teachers. I mean that was my feeling that-- Because after you' ; ve been in a, in a school where you have good teachers, and you have teachers that can answer your questions, and take time. The teachers that I had in my, at camp were not that type. So, for me, it was very discouraging to me. So I really admire these people that left camp and went on to college, and were able to, yeah because they were, despite all that they were still able to finish school, you know. So that was one of my great regrets. Anna Takada: Did your mother work in camp? Merry Oya: She worked as a, as a cook, that worked in, that worked in the kitchen. Yeah many of the, many of the women worked in the kitchen as cooks, or dishwashers, or whatever was needed in the kitchen you know so-- And many of the women did that, although some of the women, Issei women I noticed, because they were professionals so to speak, you know, teaching arts and knitting, those kinds of things. Eventually, those groups were started, and so, I know many of the women did join those groups. And I think they enjoyed doing things like that, because it was kind of a change for them. Anna Takada: Maybe something to kind of pass the time? Merry Oya: Yeah, and to be with you know friends, or get to know other people. Anna Takada: And did you, did you make friends in camp? Merry Oya: Oh yeah, I did, because of my classmates I did. I made some good friends, but then after the camp closed, after we had to leave Tule Lake, then we all got separated. And, and a few I kept up with, but then, along the way, you know the, I don' ; t know what happened to these people because then they, they also had moved on to other things. Anna Takada: How long were you in Tule Lake with your family, would you say? Merry Oya: I think I was there maybe, maybe two years, I think. Let' ; s see, I graduated in ' ; 43 and I think I left... ' ; 44... I think I left in ' ; 44. So, I think I was in camp about two years? Anna Takada: And so where did you, in 1944, where did you go? Merry Oya: Well then, Tule Lake was a camp, you probably know. So, we got sent to Minidoka, back up to Idaho. And I mean other people went to other camps, too, but they, they removed us because they wanted to make Tule Lake a segregated camp for the people that wanted to return to Japan and... Anna Takada: What they called " ; maximum security" ; , and... Merry Oya: Yeah. Anna Takada: So in ' ; 44 you left for Minidoka ; can you tell me what Min-Minidoka was-- Merry Oya: Actually, we didn' ; t stay in Minidoka too long, either, because my mother wanted to get, get out. Anna Takada: It' ; s a lot, yeah. Merry Oya: So I don' ; t know, I mean, I don' ; t think we were even there maybe six months. I mean we were, it just seemed like we were in there and we, my mother was really anxious to, really anxious to leave, so, and we had friends in Chicago so... And they had encouraged, encouraged my mother to come to Chicago. So that' ; s how we ended up in Chicago. Anna Takada: Would that have been still in 1944, or maybe 1945? Merry Oya: Might have been about ' ; 44. Anna Takada: How did Minidoka compare to Tule Lake? Merry Oya: Well, I couldn' ; t really make a comparison, because as I said, we were in Minidoka such a short time. But then of course, by the time we got to Minidoka, the, the atmosphere was different, and Minidoka was not like Tule Lake where you had a lot of sandstorms. And, for me it was like a, for me, I thought it was like a cleaner environment, to be there. Anna Takada: And by that time, you said that you had graduated-- Merry Oya: Well, I graduated from Tule Lake school, I mean, high school in Tule Lake. Anna Takada: So did you work in Minidoka, or were you just-- Merry Oya: Well, when, when we were in Tule Lake, we worked until we started school. I did, I think everybody that was eligible did work I, I, you know, either in the offices, or in the kitchen, or out-outdoors. I think the men worked outdoors in the farms and things. Yeah, so everybody that could, I think did, did work. Anna Takada: What, what did you do? Merry Oya: Well I had a, I had a job a short time working in an office, which gave me a chance to practice my so-called office skills. And that was enjoyable. Anna Takada: So, can you tell me more about this connection your mother had in, in Chicago, and sort of the process of leaving camp? Merry Oya: Oh well, my mother, through friends in Chicago, we, we managed, my mother managed to find a... well, I wouldn' ; t call it an apartment, but it was a building where the kitchen, it was all separate rooms. The kitchen, had two bedrooms, I think that was it, kitchen... So, and because, because there were only the three rooms, my sister decided that she' ; s going to work as domestic help or something. So she can, not only, she didn' ; t like the arrangement anyway, the way we were doing it, so she said she would go work as a domestic so... And she, she' ; s always claimed that she got picked to, to, to make the sacrifice, so-called sacrifice. Anna Takada: Where, where in Chicago was this building? Merry Oya: It' ; s on the fif-- on the South Side. It' ; s not there anymore. And, and as you probably know too, that, even, oh by then the war was over. By then, even though the war was over, and I tried to find housing, rent, rent an apartment, ' ; cause, ' ; cause this place we stayed at was not ideal for us, but then there we did meet discrimination. Because if we saw, if I saw a sign in a newspaper that there were apartments available, I would go, and it, of course it was always not available. So, and housing was acute, because of after the war... So anyways that' ; s why my sist-- but then, we met, then we met a Japanese who actually, I guess he had come out earlier, and he actually bought a building, apartment building so... We were able to move into his building, which was old, but still, it was three rooms, and we were able to once again, you know become a family. But that, that was kind of a hardship, hardship too, because we' ; d be squeezed into three, three rooms, and it was a bedroom, a living room, and a kitchen. Anna Takada: Whereabouts on the South Side was the second home that you found? Merry Oya: The second home? Well, the first, the first home is, do you know where the, the BTC is here? It was the first BTC church on the corner of Dorchester and fifty, 55th Street. And, on back of that church was this building where they were renting the rooms. Anna Takada: So that was the first? Merry Oya: That was the first place. And then, this Japanese man who bought this apartment building, this was about a couple blocks... It was on 57th and Dorchester, I think it was. Anna Takada: Before you had... I don' ; t get to ask many people this, because a lot of folks that I speak to were a bit younger than you at the time. Merry Oya: Mhmm. Anna Takada: But do you remember, when you... when your mother had made the arrangements to come to Chicago, do you remember your... how you felt about that move? ' ; Cause, you know, Chicago is pretty far away... Merry Oya: Well, well, first of all, I think it' ; s because my mother wanted to get out of the camp. Secondly, since, since there was an opportunity, since a friend had you know, suggested it, because, because this friend told her that at least he could find an apartment at, so we could stay while we' ; re either looking for a job, or an apartment. So she, with that, we came to Chicago. And, which well, I guess in reality we got the apartment. And, I think, what happened? And then, at, of course that at that point then, we had to look for, we wanted to look for a job, because... So at that time, you know they had this, which is the JAS...JAS... which was for... I think it was called... do you, do you remember? Anna Takada: The Resettlers Committee? Merry Oya: Yeah, Resettlers Committee were h-helping the Japanese find jobs and apartments. So, through them, we found, we, we found this apartment that was owned by this Japanese. Anna Takada: And that was the, the second home you had lived in, in Chicago? Merry Oya: Mm-hmm, mhmm, mhmm. Anna Takada: Before you arrived, did you know anything about Chicago? Merry Oya: No, we just knew it was a big city. (laughs) Anna Takada: Was that scary at all, to think about? Merry Oya: Well... Anna Takada: Such a big move. Merry Oya: Well, I, I don' ; t think it scared us so much as I was, it, I was just wondering how I' ; m going to get around here, you know I, ' ; cause I didn' ; t know any-- transportation, I don' ; t know what it was, and not knowing the area at all. And, and I think one thing that my mother was comfortab-- comfortable with, was that, there was, and they, they were going to start this Buddhist church on this 57th and Dorchester. So, with that, she, she came. And then, we went to, we were, I went to the service committee and they, they told my mother that she, that they had lots of openings for... They wanted seamstresses, and since my mother could sew... So actually, my mother got, my mother had a job first, but, but I wanted to make sure my mother got settled before I started. So I, she, she got this sewing job and then after that-- Anna Takada: Where, where was that sewing job? Merry Oya: Oh it was downtown, it was downtown. At that time, that area was like a sewing center, a fabric center, and they had, I know they had lots of shops there at one time. But, when I went to the Resettlers to find a job for myself, well, I, actually, I had a lot of jobs before I found a permanent... I, I would go to one place and it was temporary, and then I' ; d find another job, and I didn' ; t like it. And besides, I didn' ; t have any experience. So, but finally the, the... And, and they had a Caucasian fellow, I can' ; t remember his name, that was helping the service committee. He, he said, " ; I have a good job for you now," ; and I said " ; Where?" ; And he referred me to a shop on Michigan Ave. It was a, one of these places, exclusive places where the women come out with the models, and all that kind of thing. So I, but I said to him, I said, " ; You know, I don' ; t have any office experience." ; He said, " ; That' ; s okay." ; He said, " ; That' ; s okay." ; He said, " ; They want you." ; So I went and I got my first experience typing a little bit of shorthand. But, and, and I got a bird' ; s eye view of what the rich, you know, how they, how they got about doing things. But anyway, but that was, it, it was kind of interesting, but it was a little boring. So then I had to find another job. Anna Takada: And where-- Merry Oya: And it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t paying that well either. Anna Takada: Where on Michigan, was that downtown? Merry Oya: Yeah, it was on Michigan Ave. It was, it was near what it was, what it was, the Tribune Tower. Anna Takada: And so how were, how were you and your mother getting around? Merry Oya: Oh, street, street car. At that time it was street car, but I had to show my mother had to use a street car. So, before I could start working, I had to get her kind of settled and oriented. So, I used to get on the street car with her and show her where to get off, and get on. So when she, and then, when she got the job, she had to know where to go, so I did that for a little while. I went with her and I said, " ; This is where you' ; re going to go work." ; And then, when it was time for her to leave, I would meet her so we can go home together. Well so we did that for not too long, but then one day, I said to my mother, " ; I think that you, I think you can do it yourself now." ; So she got to the, the street car, riding the street car was not difficult because all you had to do was, all she had to do was get on, and get off, and then walk a couple blocks. But then, she was a little confused about going home, even though I told her it' ; s the same route, only going backwards. But I went to meet her and she saw me, and she said, she said in Japanese, it was such a relief to see me standing there. But, but... Anna Takada: Do you think that was because just, to have a familiar face in an unfamiliar place? Merry Oya: I think so, because she didn' ; t complain about the work. She was more concerned about that. But then, after that, I found out about the IC. You know about the I--, is that the IC, that, that train travels south? Anna Takada: I only know the L, or the-- Merry Oya: Oh it' ; s not a, it' ; s not an L, it' ; s a, it' ; s an electric train that goes down to, it' ; s on the South Side, it goes to Gary. Anna Takada: Oh okay. Merry Oya: Well anyway, I found out that, that there' ; s the IC station, which if, if you pay the fare, it goes directly downtown, which was, which was much quicker than riding the street car for an hour. So then I showed my mother how to ride that thing, so she could save time you know traveling so... But all during the time that my mother was in Chicago working, she worked in this clothing industries. So and she got, she got, because of her skills, she was able to get, go from one job to another, finding better jobs. And so s--, I think she was satisfied with the job she had. And then at the end, she did make friends, you know even with the Caucasian women. Although she told me most of the women were Japanese, they were Japanese. They want, the, the employer-- employee-- employers wanted Japanese women for their shops. Anna Takada: Do you know why? Merry Oya: Well maybe, maybe skilled for one thing, skill was one thing, I think. But my moth--, my mother said they became like a group. And maybe because they, they were qui--, I don' ; t know if they were quiet, but they probably did not cause any problems. Anna Takada: And you said she had kind of worked her way up? And this was like still in sewing industry? Merry Oya: Mhmm. Mhmm. Well she got to the, I know this last job she had, she got to the point where she became like a, what they call a pattern maker. She makes the models for the other women to follow the, the clothes that they were sewing. So, so she, she didn' ; t have to do the same thing all the time, because she was doing making, sewing these different models for the other women to sew. Anna Takada: What, what was the timeline for that? How much time had passed from the start of when you were in Chicago, to when she was making patterns? How much time do you think? Merry Oya: Mhmm, Yeah. Well she was, ' ; cause she worked a long time. I think she was... forty, 30 years, 40 years? Anna Takada: Oh, wow, so we' ; re talking like-- Merry Oya: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah she worked until she was 70, I think. She retired at 70. Anna Takada: And as far as your siblings, when you had first arrived. Were, well, let' ; s see. Would your, would they have both been in school still? Merry Oya: No. Anna Takada: Your sister and brother? Merry Oya: What happened was my sister, she went to business school. This is while she was still working at, part ti-- I mean at the, as a domestic. She went to business school, finished that, and she got an offi--, then she got an office job. Anna Takada: Where did she go to business school? Merry Oya: I can' ; t remember. It, it could have been Bryant & ; Stratton. Anna Takada: But it was in the city? Merry Oya: Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Does that mean, did she graduate high school in camp, while you were in camp? Merry Oya: She, she graduated in, in, in Minidoka. Anna Takada: Okay. Merry Oya: Soon, so soon as my sis--, my sister graduated, then that' ; s when we left. She didn' ; t, she didn' ; t gradu-- Oh, did she graduate from Tule Lake? Well, I can' ; t remember now whether she graduated from Tule Lake or-- Anna Takada: But it was in, it was in camp? Merry Oya: Because she was a year after me. Anna Takada: Oh, I see. And how about your, your younger brother? Merry Oya: Oh, my, my brother went to, continued school here and he was attending at that, Hyde Park High School. Anna Takada: Okay. So he, he was in high school by the time you came to Chicago. Merry Oya: Mhmm. Yeah. Anna Takada: And, and, I' ; m sorry, what are your siblings' ; names? Merry Oya: My sister, her name is Ruth. She' ; s passed, she passed away last year. Anna Takada: Oh, I' ; m sorry. Merry Oya: And my, I have a sister named-- brother named George. Anna Takada: And so just to, to get a better idea of your, those early days when you had first arrived in Chicago, so your sister took up work, domestic work. Do you know where the family she was-- Merry Oya: Oh, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: But she, that means that she was living there, right? Merry Oya: Yeah, right, yeah with the family uh-huh. Anna Takada: Did she come home on weekends or-- Merry Oya: Mm-hmm. Anna Takada: You still got to see her. And George had enrolled at Hyde Park. And you mentioned that you all were going to what was then Chicago Buddhist Church? Merry Oya: No, just my mother and my brother, and, and, because in the meantime, my sister, she, she, she moved to Seattle b-because she was going with a fellow. He was in the, this was, he was still in the service at the time, but he came to Chicago and they resumed their friendship. So then she decided she' ; s going to go to, back to Seattle, and then eventually they got married. So my sister settled in Seattle. So she didn' ; t, after she got here, she didn' ; t stay too long in Chicago. Anna Takada: How long do you think she was here before moving? Merry Oya: Maybe about two, let' ; s see, two, maybe about two years. I know it wasn' ; t too long. Anna Takada: A shorter time. And, do you know how long you were, you were in that, the second building at 57th and Dorchester? Merry Oya: Oh, we were in there a long time. I can' ; t, I can' ; t... As I said, if, if I knew you were going to ask me these, I would' ; ve, I would' ; ve brought my... Let' ; s see. Anna Takada: 10 years or-- Merry Oya: Yeah, maybe, maybe. Because from the 57th Street, then we moved up north. And I know at that time my sister was not with me, with us, so... Anna Takada: And, 57th and Dorchester at that time, can you describe what that, that neighborhood or that area was like? Merry Oya: Well, that' ; s the University of Chicago neighborhood. And it was, I mean, I thought it was pleasant. It, nothing really exciting happened except that I, I know that there were, it' ; s not only the area, but there were a lot of things to see and do out there because the museum was there and-- Anna Takada: Which, which museum? Merry Oya: The Museum of Science and Industry. It was within walking distance of where we were living. And we had, the University of Chicago used to have different kinds of activities, and we would go there. And then there' ; d be bookshops. There were a lot of bookshops in that area too. It was, it was kind of an interesting place. And then it was close to Hyde Park, which was, which was within walking distance for us. And that was, just walking around the neighborhood was enjoyable. So, so actually I enjoyed living on the South Side. Anna Takada: Were there, so I know at the time there were a number of Japanese American families in that area. Merry Oya: Well, in fact, in fact, a lot of, many other Japanese Americans were living farther north, which was around the 45th. I think they were on 45th, 47th Street area. And in fact, I, somebody told me predominantly the Japanese were in that area. Anna Takada: Did you know any, anyone coming to Chicago, any friends from camp or school? Merry Oya: No, not... No, because I think most of the, most of the people I knew, they came out about the same time as I did. So, so I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t know anybody that came later than, than we did. Anna Takada: Mhmm. But did you have, did you have friends that you had known prior to moving to Chicago? Merry Oya: From camp? Anna Takada: Yeah. Merry Oya: No. Well, after, after I left camp, I lost, I lost touch with some of the people. And then the one that I was close to, we were still corresponding after we separated. But then along the way, somehow either they passed away or I lost track of them. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And, do you, so you mentioned where kind of Japanese were settling from camp in Chicago. Merry Oya: Mhmm. Anna Takada: Do you remember any Japanese owned businesses or-- Merry Oya: Well, on the South Side there was a, there was a Japanese market. And, I can' ; t, I can' ; t remember all the, the South Side, but on the North Side there were more Japanese stores and markets and shops for other things. Anna Takada: Do you, would you happen to remember the names of any of those? Merry Oya: The South Side ones? Anna Takada: Either ones. Merry Oya: Of any place? Anna Takada: Yeah. Or ones that you maybe went to for-- Merry Oya: Well, on the North Side, you know the Toguri stores were there. They were there. And then they had the Star Market, which was a very popular grocery s-- because they carried so many of the Japanese products. And I, and I remember there was a gift shop on, I can' ; t remem-- but I don' ; t rem-- I don' ; t remember the name of the store. But I know close to Star Market, there was another market across the street too. And, and if you go farther north, there were several Japanese markets too. In, in fact, I think that we had quite a few Japanese food markets, which was convenient for people that wanted Japanese products. And, and then, there were a lot of beauty shops too opened up, opened up. Anna Takada: On the North Side? Merry Oya: Mm-hmm, on the North Side. Anna Takada: And so, I, I know there was a big urban renewal project, and I think that was around the start of the ' ; 60s, because I think that' ; s part of the reason why the Chicago Buddhist Church moved. Merry Oya: Moved? Moved from south to the north, you mean? Anna Takada: So, would you have moved? Do you remember that at all or-- Merry Oya: No. Anna Takada: Okay. So I, I wonder if maybe you moved to the North Side before all of that. Where, where on the North Side did you move to? Merry Oya: We moved to, close to Wrigley Field. Well, I, I think, I think by then many of the Japanese families who were living, living on the South Side in the 43rd area, they, I think most of them had moved out of that area. Anna Takada: Do you know why? Merry Oya: Well, it could be partially because, I' ; m just guessing that the blacks just started moving in there, that area, but also I think the Japanese wanted to, wanted to move farther north rather than going farther south. Anna Takada: Was that beca--because there was more things going on up north as opposed to down south or, or closer to the, the heart of the city, or-- Merry Oya: Well, I think it' ; s partly because more Japanese stores, you know shops were being opened up on the North Side. Anna Takada: And-- Merry Oya: If you wanted to go to a restaurant, they were on the North Side. And as I said, all those grocery stores that opened up. And, and, of course, Toguri' ; s was the big store on the North Side. Anna Takada: Can you describe what Toguri' ; s was like in, in those earlier days? Merry Oya: Well, it was a general merchandise place and, and they sold Japanese items, you know, dishware, books, kimonos. I think if you wanted to find anything, a Japanese product, you, you went, you first went to Toguri' ; s to see if they had it. And if they didn' ; t, I think they would make arrangements to order them for you. Anna Takada: And where was it located? Merry Oya: At Belmont and Clark Street. Anna Takada: How, how big was the store itself? Merry Oya: Oh, you' ; ve never been there? Anna Takada: I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t realize that that was the same space. Merry Oya: Oh it was a huge, it was a huge place and ' ; cause they had a upstairs too. Well, you know they recently sold that building. Mhmm. Anna Takada: So there, it was a two story then, it had two floors. Merry Oya: I think so. Yeah mhmm. Anna Takada: So we have just a few minutes left, but-- Merry Oya: Oh, they also had that reputation of the Iva Toguri. Do you, you' ; ve heard about that one? Uh-huh. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit more about it? Merry Oya: Toguri' ; s, let' ; s see, well she was a, she was in Japan. And I think she was condemned as a traitor because she was broadcasting for the Japanese during the war. And but then when she came here, and I think she had a trial, I think? I think she did spend some time in prison, but not long, but... Anna Takada: Was that something that folks in Chicago really, everyone knew about it? Merry Oya: Well, yeah, yeah. Everybody knew about it eventually because it came out in the papers, you know not, not only local papers and then also on the news, you know, radio news. And then also because Bill, Bill Kurtis, do you know the news, news reporter? He, I guess he took an interest in Iva' ; s situation too so, because he helped, he helped her a lot. Anna Takada: Just a, a couple of final questions. Well, first I guess, how long was you, how long were you and your family near Wrigleyville or Wrigley Field on the North Side? Merry Oya: How long? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Merry Oya: Oh, long, a long time, pretty long I would say because that was our main home for a long time, maybe fift--, 15 years. Anna Takada: Had the, during your time there, had the neighborhood changed at all? Merry Oya: Oh, definitely. In fact, when we were, after we moved, I said we shouldn' ; t have moved out of there because the real estate went up sky high. (laughs) Anna Takada: Mhmm. Yeah even thinking about it today. Merry Oya: Yeah, yeah well, even at that time, right, right after we moved out, we, we were, we saw all these people not only moving into the area but, because of the Cubs, the Wrigley Field, and you know so... But then, so we moved from that area into the Ravenswood area. Anna Takada: And is that where you still live? Merry Oya: Yeah, it' ; s on, I' ; m still there. My mother passed away. Anna Takada: So, if you were just describing... Well, actually first, have you ever, or had you ever considered moving back to the West Coast after you were in Chicago? Merry Oya: Well, not really. Because, because I think mostly because my mother was still with me, and I have, I have, two nieces in Seattle yet. And I know one of them is always encouraging me to move to Seattle and she' ; s telling me how nice it is and how nice, scenic it is and blah, blah, blah, blah. (laughs) And I, I actually, I, I would love to be either living out there, but I' ; m, I' ; m thinking you know since I' ; m at, I' ; m, I' ; m thinking I' ; m at that age, I don' ; t be making too much, too drastic of a change. And I have friends here, and I still have one nephew that' ; s here. So, that idea has kind of gone out of my mind now, but I, I did that one time think. I thought after my mother passed away, I might move out there. But, oh and another thing is I had two good friends at Seattle. They were former classmates of mine and they passed away. So, that was another reason. Although I would love to see my you know nieces there, but you know, the situation kind of changed. Anna Takada: And are you, are you happy to be living in Chicago and-- Merry Oya: Well, I' ; m, I' ; m contented. I' ; m contented. I think I' ; ve had a pretty good, you know life. And I still have friends here and I, I still keep in touch with my old boss who I worked for, for many years. Anna Takada: And, and which job was that? Merry Oya: Oh, I worked at a law firm. And he' ; s retired too, so... But he, he s-- he still sends me fruits at Christmas time, so he still, I know he still remembers me. Anna Takada: And, when you think about the, the Japanese American community in Chicago kind of around those earlier resettlement days, how, how does that compare to what it kind of looks like today? Merry Oya: How it was then and now? Anna Takada: Yeah. What' ; s changed? Merry Oya: Oh, I, I think it' ; s changed in the sense that... I, I think the, the, the climate of the public has changed I think. You know we have a lot of, currently we have a lot of riots and crime, especially in Chicago. And we have so much disturbance it just seems, and have a lot of unhappy people. And the, and it, and politics is still up and down, up and down. And I just think that things are not really that, going that well in Chicago. Anna Takada: And how does that compare to, to what it was like when you first moved here? Merry Oya: Well I think, I wouldn' ; t, I wouldn' ; t say it was quiet or anything, but I don' ; t think it was so, obviously, well... Right now I think of Chicago as kind of crime, crime-ridden because of all the crimes that have been committed and all the, the distraction with the, with the police and the, the blacks. Just seems like we haven' ; t been able to get along altogether as before. Yeah I think there' ; s like, it' ; s like, it' ; s like there' ; s just disturbance all the time in the city. Anna Takada: And, to get a bit more specific, how do you think the, the Japanese American community has changed with time? Merry Oya: Well I, I don' ; t th--, I, I don' ; t think there really is a Japanese American community now. Yeah it' ; s not, it' ; s not like before when there were a lot of Japanese here originally, because I think we, I see more of the younger people are, are integrating more into other nationalities and other activities. It' ; s not, it' ; s not all Japanese activities now. And so, so it seems there' ; s more opportunity for integration among all the people, even though they may not be you know agreeing with each other. But I, I think the, the setup from the days when we were younger and the old days, the way these things are, it' ; s so entirely different. I, I think, I think eventually the Japanese American community may not be here much longer as a community I mean. I think that, I think it' ; s good that the younger people are you know integrating more into different, different areas and you know mixing, mixing it up, so to speak. Anna Takada: One thing that I, I like to ask folks as we wrap up is if you could leave any kind of message or legacy just with future generations or, or children, if you have any, just leave a kind of message or legacy behind, what would you want that to be? Merry Oya: Well, I think I, I would still like to see, remember that there were Japanese here and that the Japanese did great things not, not only for the city but for the country because, because the war you know that took the lives of so many of our people. And they, and they became heroes and they still were not acknowledged even for all efforts that they put in. But now they' ; re lately been recognizing or acknowledging them more. But, but and then the fact that we went, they put us into camps this, all this evacuation, I think all that has to still be, that still has to be remembered as part of a history that people should know that those things happened, and if you don' ; t talk about it or know about it. But I, I think those are, to me, are important things that are all part of Chicago and people should know that. Anna Takada: And w-why do you think, why is that something that' ; s important for people to know? Merry Oya: Well, there are so many other things happening that I, I don' ; t think, peopl-- especially people--, especially the, the, the younger crowd, don' ; t seem to know-- Well, I, I think this younger crowd now, they' ; re not so prejudiced either. So they, they may not think that this evacuation and all that war thing is all past now. So, you know they just want to think of the future. But I think those, those other things that, that the Japanese contributed or have gone through, they' ; re a more important part of his--, they' ; re part history of Chicago too, so... Anna Takada: Mhmm. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to, to speak with me. Merry Oya: Well-- Anna Takada: Are there, are there any, before we totally wrap up, are there any final thoughts or anything you' ; d like to add or anything that I might have missed in the conversation that you' ; d like to share? Merry Oya: No, not really. Well, you know a lot of that, I' ; m sorry I couldn' ; t help you more, but my memory isn' ; t as good because, because it was such a long time ago when it happened. And, and as I said, I do, I do have things written at home that I don' ; t want to forget. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And you did a great job. Your memory is you know, far better than a lot of people so... Merry Oya: Well, I don' ; t know about that. But anyway-- Anna Takada: Thank you so much. Merry Oya: I' ; m glad to help if that, if that did anything. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OyaMerry20181005.xml OyaMerry20181005.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Sort Priority
6500
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oya, Merry (10/5/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Merry Oya, a nisei born in Montana in 1924, spent her early childhood in the railroad town of Whitefish before moving to Seattle, WA and later to Portland, OR. She shares memories from her childhood, including the early death of her father and the many jobs her mother pursued in order to provide for her three children. She also recounts the experiences of forced removal first to the Portland Assembly Center, then Tule Lake, and finally Minidoka. With encouragement from friends who had already resettled in Chicago, Merry's mother moved the family from Minidoka to Chicago as quickly as possible, settling initially on the South Side. Merry describes the challenges of cramped housing conditions and discrimination, but also assistance assistance received from the Chicago Resettlers Committee and her mother's success as a seamstress in the Chicago garment industry.The family eventually moved to Chicago's North Side, first near Wrigley Field and later in the Ravenswood neighborhood. Particularly notable are her memories of helping her mother, an issei with limited English abilities, learn to navigate the public transit system in their new city, and her memories of kind neighbors who stored the family's furniture during the war. At the end of the interview, Merry expresses her desire for young people to remember the history of incarceration but also to learn about the contributions Japanese Americans have made to the city of Chicago.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/9d185f49a1e2386754903be387acbcf5.png
41d2bf90352ad19d3017ec289404821f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Saiki, James
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaikiJames20180719.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Hawaii
Kauai
Agriculture
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Church of Christ Presbyterian
United States Army
Housing Discrimination
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
CNAA
OHMS Object Text
5.4 7/19/2018 Saiki, James (7/19/2018) 1:40:37 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Hawaii Kauai Agriculture 442nd Regimental Combat Team Church of Christ Presbyterian United States Army Housing Discrimination Chicago Nisei Athletic Association CNAA Saiki, James Takada, Anna video 1:|18(12)|34(12)|47(7)|62(3)|72(8)|83(8)|94(16)|111(4)|123(5)|129(11)|144(5)|153(7)|165(5)|174(6)|184(4)|195(7)|200(10)|207(11)|216(8)|223(1)|234(2)|251(10)|261(9)|274(8)|286(3)|303(10)|311(10)|318(9)|330(11)|340(13)|350(12)|357(7)|364(1)|372(10)|385(6)|395(3)|409(12)|427(16)|441(7)|455(5)|469(10)|476(12)|486(12)|499(3)|513(6)|524(11)|534(8)|543(6)|560(2)|570(7)|584(3)|594(6)|603(14)|618(5)|627(6)|646(6)|659(7)|666(7)|676(7)|692(6)|706(12)|717(1)|730(4)|744(8)|753(11)|761(4)|779(6)|798(3)|808(8)|815(10)|824(1)|843(4)|852(7)|861(11)|876(3)|900(1)|907(7)|921(15)|934(5)|945(3)|964(9)|973(3)|980(12)|993(10)|1005(13)|1019(3)|1032(13)|1047(1)|1059(5)|1067(5)|1075(14)|1086(5)|1101(6)|1112(4)|1125(6)|1133(7)|1141(6)|1147(14)|1153(10)|1162(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/601297759/fc783b74c1 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601297759?h=fc783b74c1" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; James Saiki, a nisei born and raised in Hawaii, describes his parents' immigration from Yamaguchi prefecture and his experiences growing up as one of nine siblings on a farm in Wailua, Kauai. Eight years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed, he recalls singing patriotic songs at school, the departure of an older brother to serve with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, and his lack of awareness of the incarceration of Japanese Americans on the mainland. Joining the U.S. Army after just one year at the University of Hawaii, he received training as a laboratory technician before serving in the Korean War, followed by two years stationed in Tokyo. After his discharge from the army, he studied in Phildelphia before joining his brothers in Chicago to work and study at Northwestern University. He reflects on his involvement with the Church of Christ Presbyterian and the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association and expresses a hope that his descendants will continue a family tradition of caring and hospitality. James Saiki: How, how about the volume? You want me to speak louder, or... Anna Takada: No, you can, just like this is fine. James Saiki: Okay. Anna Takada: Okay. This is an interview with James Saiki as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History project. The interview is being conducted on July 19th, 2018, at about 1:00 PM in the afternoon at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. James Saiki is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you just state your name?f James Saiki: My name' ; s James T. Saiki. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? James Saiki: I was born on April 3rd, 1932 in Wailua, Kauai, Hawaii. Anna Takada: So like I mentioned, we' ; ll be starting by hearing more about your family. So can you tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe where and when they were born? James Saiki: Okay, both my mom and dad are from Yamaguchi prefecture in Japan. My dad came to Hawaii in 1905 to work for the sugar plantation, and mom was a picture bride who married my dad in 1915. Anna Takada: They were both from the same prefecture? James Saiki: Yes. Anna Takada: And what were their names? James Saiki: My dad' ; s name is Yasutaro, and my mom' ; s, Nui, N-U-I. Anna Takada: And, and so your, your dad worked on a sugar plantation. And then, do you know any more details about what his life was like or the work that he was doing? James Saiki: Yeah. Well originally he came as a worker on a sugar plantation, and later on as a part-time job we had 10 acres of rice farm, and we also did truck crops. So, but this was a part-time, both mom and dad worked full-time, and, well, mom had nine children, so for 20 years she was pregnant or caring, taking care of a youngster. Anna Takada: Wow. And can you tell me about your, your siblings and the rest of your family? How many, so you said there were nine? James Saiki: There were nine of us. I had two, two brothers and then a sister, and then six, six of us boys after, after that. Anna Takada: Wow. James Saiki: Yeah. So when the war broke out, I think all eight of, no, seven of us, one brother was in Honolulu, but all the rest were on the island of Kauai. Anna Takada: And your eldest sibling, do you remember what year they were born? James Saiki: My eldest, I would think he was born in 1917 or ' ; 18. And then all the rest two years after that, about two, two and a half years intervals. Anna Takada: Wow. So there was quite an age difference then between you and your eldest sibling, then? For example. James Saiki: Right. So we' ; re two years apart, so my brother above me is two and a half years, and my other brother, my youngest brother is three and a half years. And all the rest, they' ; re about, between, I' ; d say two years difference in age. Anna Takada: And can you tell me what it was growing up in Kauai? James Saiki: Well, being you know farmers, most of my activities were spent on a farm, very little social or vacation time. So my younger life, up until high school, was mainly devoted on the farm. Of course, I went to school, and being a farmer, part-time farmers, we had to work after school, on holidays, and weekends. So I used to, not hate, but I didn' ; t care for holidays because that meant work and I barely missed school because that means I had to work if I' ; m home. So... Anna Takada: Did you prefer one to the other, like school over, over working, or... James Saiki: Oh yeah. Prefer, yeah, school because it' ; s much easier. (laughs) Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so as a child, what were some of your responsibilities on the farm? James Saiki: Well, you know, I, I can recall when the war broke out in 1941, I was eight and a half years old, on a Sunday, and we were working on a vegetable farm. We were growing cucumbers, tomatoes, beans, and some eggplant, I think. So my life as a youngster until high school was mainly working on the farm. Anna Takada: So it sounds like you probably didn' ; t have much time for other activities. James Saiki: Right, yeah. Very little, no movies, of course no television and all that thing. And my, and my home was on the rice farm until I was six years old. I think in 1938 we built a new home. But my original home that I was born and grew up was no electricity, no plumbing. Anna Takada: Was that pretty standard? James Saiki: What' ; s that? Anna Takada: Was that pretty standard on the island? James Saiki: No, just in the valley where the rice farms were. There were about seven or eight farmers and we had no, no electricity or plumbing. Anna Takada: And was your family religious at all? James Saiki: Well, they were active in the Buddhist church, so until I became a Christian, I, when they asked me, I would say Buddhist as my religion. Of course I knew very little about the religion, it was more like I went there for activities. Anna Takada: So was there, was there a temple in your town then? James Saiki: Yes, there was one, one that-- Well, where I grew up, there were two, two different Buddhist sects. Anna Takada: And, and how about language in the households? What languages-- James Saiki: Well, mom and dad spoke Japanese, and I spoke very little Japanese, mainly English or what they call pidgin English, which was a mixture of Japanese, Hawaiian, and different languages. And I usually communicated with mom and dad in that type of language. So it was very difficult, because when I was, when the war broke out, they closed all the temples and the language school. So I went only one hour a day after the English, English classes, one hour of language, yeah. One hour a week. And sometime four hours on Saturday. So my, my Japanese was very poor. And, and the, the unique thing is that in home we' ; d speak Japanese, broken Japanese. My, my, my siblings were better because they were older and went, had more education in Japanese language. But so we would communicate in Japanese to mom and dad and, and we spoke, we' ; d communicate strictly English with my siblings. And once we left home out of the door, it was complete English, no, no Japanese. Anna Takada: And so you mentioned going to school, working, and then also language school. Can you tell me a little bit more about what schooling and your education was like as a, as a child? James Saiki: My grammar school? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. James Saiki: I guess you know, it' ; s no different than the schools today. I think even high school, of, of course we didn' ; t have in high school, a, a facility that, you know, modern facilities. Thinking back, I graduated in 1950, so no computers or that, that type of educational sources you know? Anna Takada: And how about classmates and, and some of your peers, were other folks, were they also from parents who had immigrated to the U-- or to Kauai? James Saiki: I think that my Japanese friends were, and their parents was similar to my parents. And then, we were the majority, of course. And then there was quite a few Filipinos, and, and they came from the Philippines, of course. Chinese, Koreans, Portuguese, Puerto Rican. And originally all of them came during that era to work on the plantations. And so their family upbringing was similar to mine. Anna Takada: And so you were, when the, when the war broke out, you were still pretty young? James Saiki: Yes, I was eight and a half years old, and I, I still remember, because we' ; re working on farm and my neighbor came over and said, " ; The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and we' ; re at war." ; But myself and my siblings did not... I think they just practicing, because you know we had no radio on the farm. And then it wasn' ; t until noontime when we went back to the home and listened to radio that we realized that you know the war actually broke out. So... Anna Takada: Would you happen to remember your reactions, or ... James Saiki: Being at that age, I don' ; t recall you know any dramatic... In fact, I think at that time, prior to that time, I guess Dad always, would listen to the radio about Japan with China and Shang--. And I think I kind of felt that I was for Japan, because they were doing well as far as the war was concerned. And it wasn' ; t ... Probably a year or two after that and I realized what really happened about the war. And then of course my brother, six months after, volunteered for the four four sec-- World War II. So we got more, more involved with the American, you know forces in the war. And so... Anna Takada: Why do you think that was that you were, as a child, kind of, I guess maybe sympathizing more with Japan? James Saiki: With Japan? Well, I guess because of mom and dad, you know they were... But I think you know, once the war broke and we went to school and you know, the teachers told us what' ; s happening, so I had a better understanding of what' ; s happening. So, since that time I have no feeling for Japan. I was anti... I was so-called pure American. Singing American songs, war songs, and participating in the, buying, what they call that, bonds and saving stamps. Anna Takada: Yeah. Can, can you explain some of those things? Or maybe what changed after the start of the war for you? Like in your life, what were some of the things that changed? James Saiki: Well, of course, you know, initially on the first night, my, my brother being, my eldest brother, being a scout master, getted all the young boys to go over the, go around the neighborhood to inform them about the blackout, you know, no lights and cover your windows. And then, I remember my older siblings helped to put up barbed wire barriers along the beaches. And then I guess we started, we all had to carry a gas mask with us to school and all the time. And, and then we had to build what they called air raid shelters in the backyard to protect us if there was bombing or anything. Other than that, well you know the American soldiers came to our area camp, they had big camps and, and that' ; s, that was about my only, my first exposure to white or Caucasians. And then my brother, working in the area where there was a big camp, made friends with some of the soldiers and would invite them over for weekends. And then from that time talking to them, I got to learn what mainland America was, and stateside. Until then, you know it was merely book and had no idea about... Anna Takada: So it sounds like there were a lot of, I guess you could say like war efforts or you know things that were even passed down to children to help out with, like you mentioned... or maybe not children, but just young people. So you mentioned your brother helped like notifying people about blackouts or putting up barbed wire. Do you know where, where that was, like where those tasks had been coming from or delivered from? Like, was there a, an Army instruction or something to have people help with this? Or where would that have been coming from, those directions? James Saiki: I' ; m not too sure. I think it was mainly from the, I guess you call it civil defense organizations, not, not from direction from the Army, but they directed them what to do, what things they can do to help the war effort, yeah. It was interesting because, un, unlike stateside, the prejudice toward the Japanese was not as severe. I guess one of the reasons is that we were the majority, we were 40%, nearly 40% of the population. So as I can remember, the first, maybe not even a year, they would you know, call us names and kind of discriminate a little. But being the majority, if they got you know nasty, we would beat them up because... Yeah. I remember fighting with some of my classmates in, if they were extremely discriminatory or say something bad about me, I would take them on. And we being farmers who were stronger, physically you know stronger than the city folks, so... Anna Takada: Were you going to school in the city then? James Saiki: Yes. There only one school in our area. It was, yeah. That' ; s interesting too because it was I think a little over five miles, and there was no train station. So we walked to school, to school and back home, about five miles barefooted. Anna Takada: Do you remember those walks? James Saiki: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, we did things on the way walking. Anna Takada: Like what, what were some of those things? James Saiki: We would often walk along the sugar plantation railroad tracks, and we would pick up the sugar cane that fell off the carts and eat those. For me, that was a delicacy, that was candy for me, because we weren' ; t, you know we couldn' ; t afford buying candy or ice cream or things like that so... Anna Takada: And would you do that commute with your siblings? James Saiki: I' ; m sorry? Anna Takada: Would you walk that commute with your siblings? James Saiki: No, I, I just walked with my neighbor, who was my classmate, and just my two brothers above me. Because you know the, the rest of the seven' ; s already out of high school and working. So when the war broke out, it' ; s actually... My, my brother that served in World War II, he just graduated. And then, so there was one, two, three, only four of us in high school or low grades, and three older siblings were out of school and working. Anna Takada: So I apologize, because I, I keep taking us on some tangents, but before we continue, it would be great if you could tell me, just tell me the names of your siblings, maybe in, in the order so that we can just start using their names. So what was, what was, starting with your eldest brother, what was his name? James Saiki: Harry. Anna Takada: And then... James Saiki: I had names for all of them. Harry, I consider that he was fatherly. And then my second brother was Edward, and he was hospitality. And my third, my sister, Kay, motherly, was like a, like a mother to me. And then Mamoru. I think he' ; s the only one that didn' ; t have an English name. And he was in business, so I call him the entrepreneur. And then came Charles, and he was patriotic, because he served in the 442. And then George, George was a, a protector. He protected me and he helped me. I was the closest to him. And then Robert, who was two years older than I, we had many friendly skirmishes, so... And he was a fighter, he was known as a fighter. In the Navy they used call his nickname as Ricey, from being a rice farmer. And then my you-- my youngest sibling, who' ; s two and a half years younger than, I consider him the baby. Anna Takada: And what was his name? James Saiki: Clifton. Anna Takada: Do you know why your parents gave all of you except for-- James Saiki: I don' ; t think it' ; s my parents. I think either my sister or some of the friends. Anna Takada: Gave the English names? James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: So they give us English name and middle Japanese name. So do you have a Japanese name? James Saiki: Yeah. T stands for Tamotsu. Anna Takada: Thank you. I' ; m, I' ; m just hoping that this way now we can refer to your siblings by name, and now I have the order, so I' ; ll know who you' ; re talking about. And I' ; ll know their, the words you attached to them too. So I' ; d, I' ; d like to kind of go back. So we had just talked about your commute to school, and before that you mentioned how there wasn' ; t a whole lot of prejudice towards you or, or other you know, Japanese classmates because it, there were so many, but you did mention that sometimes you got into a little bit of trouble. I' ; m wondering if you can tell me about... Like if you remember any instance of, of getting in a conflict with somebody or w--, or what that was like? James Saiki: Well, I, I think the only type of conflict was you know calling us names, Japs, and things like that. That type of discriminating things, not the real... There weren' ; t any real strong discrimination because being you know, a mixture of nationalities, we, we I think we are like a melting pot, so we got along very well, the families. So, as I mentioned, there was very few discriminatory problems as far as I can remember. Maybe others might have a different... Anna Takada: And I' ; m wondering if you can tell me more about the wartime period, and some of your family' ; s experiences during the war. Which, which of your brothers was the scout leader? James Saiki: My oldest brother. Anna Takada: Harry? So what were some of the other things that... Like maybe if your family was impacted by the war, how, how did life change during the war, if at all? James Saiki: You know ironically, for my family, economically and otherwise, I think it was good, because on the farm the, the vegetables, we had better price for the vegetables, and we had very good price for the rice, especially the mochi rice, you know the sweet rice, because they, they couldn' ; t import any here. So, those prices you know, were 10 times what they used to be. So, in that sense, economically we did much better. Anna Takada: Who were, who were kind of like the customers or who was buying from your family' ; s farm? James Saiki: I think the rice we... The wholesalers you know bought the whole crop. The vegetables, there was an organization called Farmers Co-op or something of that sort. And so, they bought most of the vegetables. And I think very few stores, or they weren' ; t that many markets or stores anyway. They bought some of it, but the majority of the crops were sent to this one big co-op. And I guess they distributed to the markets or homes that wanted to buy some. Anna Takada: So you said economically things kind of picked up for your family? James Saiki: I, I think so, because prior to the war it was very difficult, pre-depression era. And so, as a family... I, I didn' ; t realize it, but I always thought you know we were well-to-do. We had food, you know, but economically, I, I found out that Mom and Dad and, and my sib-- older siblings they really struggled, because Dad be coming to Hawaii to earn some money and go back home, decided to stay in Hawaii. So he felt, and being the eldest son, he felt obligated to support his family in Japan. So, I heard that the majority of our earnings were sent to Japan, and my dad was able to build a very nice home for his younger brother and, and the family in Japan. And those things I didn' ; t realize you know until I became over in high school and talking to them. And I, I even found out at one time that a lot of times the crop was put on consignment, so that they could get loans and things, which I, I never realized that. And then my eldest brother didn' ; t finish... I think eighth or ninth grade he, he quit school and worked for what they called a CCP, conservational organization, which did plant trees and one of, I guess, Roosevelt' ; s programs. So, so he did that, but even not having the education he was the wisest of our family. He took care of all the nitty, nitty-gritty things. And, and so, I really respect... He was more like a father to me. That' ; s why I called him my father. And my second brother, when the war broke out, he, he was good in sheet metal, so he went to work at Pearl Harbor you know. And of, of course you know being... Sugar cane and pine, pineapple were the big industry, and so, every summer we all worked on the pine, in the pineapple fields, harvesting pineapples. And my sister and my mom worked in the pineapple cannery, in which all my female... My girlfriends all worked every summer in the pineapple cannery, which was a good source of income. Anna Takada: And you said the rest of your siblings at that time were still in school. Is that right? The oldest three were in... James Saiki: Well, well, there were two above me, above me and myself. I guess four of us were you know, still in school. My, the brother above me... two above me graduated in 1946. Anna Takada: That' ; s George? James Saiki: Yes, George. And he was the first... We didn' ; t have a high school at our school then. And he was the first graduate there. And I graduated five years after him in 1950. So most, most of our... The younger siblings participated in some of the sports activities. And even that was limited, because my eldest brother wanted us not to go to practice but come back home to work. But my, my brother George, he was, he wasn' ; t that big, not much bigger than I am, you know 140-145 pounds, but he was a good football player. He was one of the best line players. And then my, the brother above me and myself, we all participated in football. And I think I was the only one that participated in basketball and baseball to try to get out of work. (laughs) Anna Takada: And so, it sounds like it was, you know it wasn' ; t an unusual, let' ; s say, like schooling experience during the war if you' ; re participating in sports. James Saiki: You know I, I can' ; t recall anything different, except you know, singing war songs, and buying stamps to support the economy... I forgot what they called it, war, war bonds or something. And I' ; m not too sure how that helped. Anna Takada: Do you remember any of the songs that you sang? James Saiki: Well, the most popular one, " ; Let' ; s Remember Pearl Harbor" ; . So we, I remember in grammar school we would almost always sing the song at the opening of class. Anna Takada: So, it was something that at school you had-- James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: So I, I would, I' ; d be interested in hearing about... So you said Charles served in the 442, in the 442nd, your brother Charles? James Saiki: Did I hear about it? Anna Takada: No. I' ; m just confirming that Charles was the one who served. James Saiki: Right. Anna Takada: And did you say there was another brother that also served? James Saiki: The other brother, I think it was occupational time in Japan. He was, did some interpreting, MIS. Anna Takada: And which brother was that? James Saiki: And then, and then the other brother was just occupational in Japan. That was in ' ; 47 after the war ended ' ; 46. No, or earlier than that. I' ; m not sure. Bu they, so, both of them served there. And then the brother above me and myself served in the Korean War. And then my younger brother stayed stateside, he didn' ; t... Anna Takada: Do you know how old your brothers were when they went into the military service? James Saiki: Well, my, the one that went to 442 was out of high school. So, he must have been 18 at the most, probably 18 plus, I think. And then... Anna Takada: And would you happen to remember the year that he joined? James Saiki: 1942 probably in the... That' ; s when they first you know, called for volunteers, and he volunteered right away. And it was interesting. In his interview he mentioned one of the reasons he volunteered right away is to get out of work. And wow, that' ; s funny. (laughs) Anna Takada: You two have that in common, you know making the excuses to get out of work. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you remember your either your feelings or maybe your, your parents' ; feelings about serving in the 442nd? Or, or just gener-- James Saiki: No, no I, I don' ; t think they had any objections. You know, they weren' ; t too expressive about their relationship with Japan. I' ; m sure they still had you know, deep you know ties and feelings about Japan, but they realized you know, it was wrong what they did. And so, I guess they got semi-Americanized. But I don' ; t hear them expressing outright feelings. But of course, when my brother was in, in the war, of course you know, they were worried about his life, and you know... Anna Takada: Did you share any of those concerns or, or have any particular feelings about it, as a younger brother? James Saiki: I' ; m sorry. What was that? Anna Takada: Did you have any particular feelings about your brother serving, like as a, as his kid brother? James Saiki: Oh yeah. Yeah. I was very proud of him serving, yeah. You know, one interesting thing, I don' ; t know if I should mention about like my wife being in California and put into concentration camps. I had very little knowledge of that going on. But later I found out that one of my classmate' ; s dad was put in camp, and another friend from the other part of the island, his dad was-- her dad was put in camp. Of course, all the Buddhist ministers, the teachers, and some of the more politically involved people, they were in business or community groups, they were, many were put in camp, like the, those in the, in California, which I didn' ; t realize. And I didn' ; t realize they were put in camp until my brother, who was training in Mississippi, went one weekend to visit my aunt and my cousin who were in Jerome, Arkansas. And he went to visit them there, and then he wrote to us. And that' ; s the first time I realized that my aunt and cousins were in camp. And then even at, at... It didn' ; t struck me what a camp was like, you know until recently when you know everything was brought out... But they had a camp in Honolulu too, which, which I didn' ; t find out ' ; till about two years ago. And I used to pass that camp, because my sister lived about two miles from the camp. And nobody knew anything about it... Anna Takada: So, in your own community, you didn' ; t know of any community leaders who had been-- James Saiki: Well, just one of my classmates' ; . Yeah. And then of course the, the Buddhist priests and teachers, I knew they were yeah, taken away. Other than that, I didn' ; t realize that there were several other leaders were put in a small camp, even on our, our island. Yeah. Probably more because I was too young to you know... But I, I don' ; t think even the other older people didn' ; t realize it, because they never talked about or mentioned anything. Anna Takada: But it sounds like there was still... Because it, it was your, your family, extended family, that was on the mainland. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: So, but they had, they hadn' ; t been in touch with your parents? It was just through, through your brother? James Saiki: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: Do you know how he, how did he know where to find them? Or how did he... James Saiki: Well, you know, I think this has been already documented, but the 442 were made up a large number from Hawaii, and half or a portion from the stateside, from camp and all that. And somehow the Hawaii boys' ; lifestyle and things were much different from the mainland Japanese. So, they, they got into a lot of conflict because... And then when they went to camp, to visit the camp, they hadn' ; t realized why the stateside or mainland Japanese, were that type of... you know, what their feeling were, why they act a certain way. And so, after that they bonded very close, you know. Anna Takada: Can you explain what some of those conflicts might have been? James Saiki: Well, you know the Hawaii boys, they loved to... they were loud, liked to drink, they liked to gamble. And, and they were... I guess they said, because our parents and the, the parents from Hawaii usually sent money to them, so they had more money to spend on beer and gambling. Whereas the stateside, their family were in camp and they had no income or anything, so they couldn' ; t send them money because they had very little spending money. So, but that, that' ; s an interesting story about what they went through. So, I heard that they always had big fights prior to you know, knowing what has happened to their parents here. Their parents were in camp and they volunteered to serve, you know? Anna Takada: Was there any other communication, or do you remember any other communication with your brother while he was serving during the war? James Saiki: No, mainly where he was and... So he wasn' ; t you know up on the front line. He was in the service committee, so he was, did a lot of transporting. So he didn' ; t do actual hand-to-hand combat. Anna Takada: So through this, through the war time you were still in school... And then, can you tell me about your memories of the, the war ending, and, and what that was like where you were at in time? James Saiki: You know the, the only thing that I can think of is, I was happy because my brother you know didn' ; t get hurt and would be coming back. Other than that, I can' ; t recall being... Of course, you know, I was happy that the war ended, but I don' ; t recall doing any celebration or anything. Anna Takada: It didn' ; t really affect you that much? James Saiki: Not that much, yeah, except for my brother. Anna Takada: Mhmm, and what year did you graduate high school? James Saiki: 1950. Anna Takada: And, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences after, after school? You mentioned that you served in the Korean War. James Saiki: Yeah. Yeah. After I graduated, I went one year to the University of Hawaii, and then I volunteered to serve in the Army for three years. One of the reasons is because they, they guaranteed me to go to medical... not medical school, medical lab school. So, I felt, I volunteer, that I was safe from the Korean War. So I' ; ll go stateside, learn to be a lab tech, and serve in a big hospital stateside. And if I was shipped overseas, which I, after I graduated the first thing is overseas assignment. Said, " ; Ah, I' ; ll probably be in Tokyo at a large hospital." ; Nothing doing, Tokyo, Korea. Yeah. Anna Takada: So you, are you saying that some of your college plans were based around trying to... James Saiki: Well, most of my college peers didn' ; t do what I did, because to stay in school and maintaining your grade points, you are exempt from being drafted. I wasn' ; t in that category, so, so I volunteered to get my choice of you know... Anna Takada: Okay. I, I apologize, because I don' ; t know too much about the draft for, for that particular war. But-- James Saiki: Oh, yeah. Once, once you' ; re 18, 19, they had a lottery and they keep drafting people. And few were exempt, like going to school, or... I, I forget what the other categories were, they were not in the draft pool. So, they tried to maintain their qualification to be non-draftable and go to school. Anna Takada: But, but why weren' ; t you exempt if you were in school? James Saiki: Well, my grades weren' ; t that good. (laughs) Anna Takada: Okay. So, then what happened? Where, where did you go? James Saiki: Then I took my training in Honolulu for 16 weeks, and then I went to Fort Sam Houston for half a year of medical technology training. When I graduated from there, I got my orders assignment. It was the Far East, and then... Anna Takada: And what year was that? James Saiki: That was in 19... I was, I volunteered in 1952, in February. And I took my training, and then I went to stateside for six months. So, when I was in Korea, it was January or February of ' ; 53. That was six months prior to the armistice. So, I served in Korea for six months while we are still at war. And then, after the war ended, I immediately put in for transfer to Japan. And fortunately, I got it right away. So, I spent two years in Japan, in Tokyo, working in a, in the largest lab of the Far East. So, that was a good experience for me. Anna Takada: Why, what drove you to want to be located there? James Saiki: Well, being downtown Tokyo and in a very well-known lab school, lab outfit. Yeah. So, there were a lot of interesting work to be done there, to learn more. Anna Takada: Do you remember... I' ; m just a little curious to hear about maybe your first impressions, because that was probably the first time you' ; d ever gone to Japan. Was, was it the first time you' ; d ever been to Japan? James Saiki: Yes. Well, no, no. I, I was in Japan in 1934 when I was two years old. Mom took me because I was a baby yet. So, I was the only one in the family that went to Japan until the war. Anna Takada: Wow. And so why did she... What was the reason for the trip? James Saiki: I think one of the reasons... I' ; m not too sure, but I thought it was because of her health. That Dad wanted her to go, you know from 1932 from 1915. So, there was quite a few years. So, I think for those two reasons she went back and she took me with her. I, I recall very little of that trip. Very little. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So then, as a, as an adult going to Japan, what was that like for you as a Japanese American from Hawaii? James Saiki: Yeah, yeah. Well, I was there you know just post Korean War, so things weren' ; t as you know it is today. There were still... There weren' ; t that many big stores, or you know. Because when I went back in 2010, about eight years ago, seven years ago, I couldn' ; t even recognize downtown Tokyo. It was so modern and all that. Anna Takada: And you were there you know, very close to the, the war as well. James Saiki: Yeah. They weren' ; t that many you know, modern facilities, even, even the trains, you know? Anna Takada: And, so, I' ; m sorry. You said it was six months that you were in Japan? James Saiki: In Kor--, in Korea. Anna Takada: In Korea. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: And how long were you in Japa-- James Saiki: Until the war ended. Yeah. Anna Takada: And how long were you in Japan? James Saiki: About two years. Almost two years. So, you know my, my three years service was... And I had an oppor-- they wanted me to ree-- reenlist for three more years, but I debated, I almost did. Then I said, " ; Oh, no, I' ; d rather go home." ; Anna Takada: And in this lab outfit, what kind of work were you doing? James Saiki: I was in a very different section. I was in parasitology, doing, studying parasites, examining for parasites. And the interesting thing is that we did some work out in the country, in the rice fields, to eradicate the snails that were the carriers for these parasites. And so, we tested chemicals and see how effective it was to kill the, the snails that harbored the parasite. So, we would go like a month, month trip out to the countryside, stay in a nice hotel, good food, and do very little work. (laughs) But back in the main lab, what I had to do was to examine mostly feces and check to see what type of parasites were, medic-- for medical reasons, for treatments, all that. And it was... I don' ; t know what the word to use, but because in Japan, in the Far East, there were, people were infected with all type of parasites. And so, stateside, you know, when you do it, you hardly find anything. But there, every specimen you are bound to find something. So, that made it interesting. Anna Takada: Was there a particular reason that you... Because it sounds like this was related to your one year at University of Hawaii, like in, I guess if you can call it medicine. Is that what you would call it? I' ; ll start there. Was, what inspired you to take up that study, or that, that role? James Saiki: Well, you know, ever since I was young, I was, aspired to be a doctor. So, and so, when I went to the university, I realized I, I don' ; t think I, I' ; ll make it. So, the next best thing to be is some kind of occupation in the hospital. So, I, I found out this lab technology, lab tech you know to do the testing of blood and all that. So, that, that' ; s the reason I went in this field and I did it in the army and I got discharged and I continued technical so... And when I finished that, I, I started for the last 40 years in the hospital. Anna Takada: So, you continued and you were doing some of that work in Japan. And then, you decided to... James Saiki: Continue, yeah. Anna Takada: But to leave Japan. You decided to leave Japan. James Saiki: Oh yeah, to be discharged, yeah. Anna Takada: Rather, versus reenlisting. So, what, what year was that? And where, where did you end up going? James Saiki: I, I got discharged in December of ' ; 54. It was not quite three years. February would have been my three years commitment. Anna Takada: And did you go back to Hawaii, or-- James Saiki: Right. So, I stayed there until September of that year, which is ' ; 54, I guess. And I, since I was home, I helped on the farm again trying to, trying to decide what to do. Anna Takada: And then, so what was the next moment to get out of there? James Saiki: And then, yeah, and I wanted to see the rest of stateside. So, I found a school the furthest east and I found one in Philadelphia. So, I went to school there to get my lab tech certificate. Anna Takada: What school was that in Philadelphia? James Saiki: It was called the Franklin School of Arts and Science. It was, it was a technical school. It was a one year program, which I did, studied how to become a lab technician. And I also took x-ray course there. But the interesting thing also, being a lab tech in the army, which I had a lot of training, the technical school was... Well, not a waste of time, but I knew all what they' ; re teaching. In fact, I almost thought that I could teach the teachers, in fact. (laughs) Many a times they would ask me to make the exam for the students. Anna Takada: Wow. And was that your first time states, in the states? James Saiki: Well, besides you know, coming to Texas to... Anna Takada: For training. James Saiki: Lab, lab school in the army. So, the, the only thing, place I saw while in the statesides was San Antonio, Texas. And I embarked from Seattle. I stayed in Seattle for about a month. But, but from Texas, I, I took the Greyhound and went all up to California to visit my aunt and the cousins in Sacramento and then went up to. Anna Takada: Okay. So, I didn' ; t realize you, you actually, you had spent a bit of time on the mainland. James Saiki: Yeah. But not really you know sightseeing, or... Anna Takada: Mhmm. Can you tell me about a little bit more about that trip? Maybe your first impressions or experiences? James Saiki: Yeah well, you know, I think it' ; s from San Francisco, Los Angeles, by error, they assigned me to go to Virginia. So, at that time you know they, they put me on a train, a Pullman, so first class. And traveling and you know seeing the mountains and the scenery. That was, impressed me a lot. And then, we stopped in Chicago, but we didn' ; t get off. So, we continued to Virginia. And when I went to Virginia, they said, " ; Oh, you' ; re going to take medical training. The basic you know to be a first aid man." ; I said, " ; Oh no, I spent six weeks of basic." ; And there was an officer there that was from Hawaii. So, I went to see him and he looked at my record, and said, " ; No, you know, they made a mistake." ; So, in about two or three weeks I got on a train and went to Texas. So, but you know, even in Virginia, we didn' ; t have passes to go out to visit that area. So I, all I saw was the camp and then the sightseeing train to Texas. Anna Takada: What were some of the biggest differences you noticed between stateside and Hawaii? If any? James Saiki: Well, you know... They were all whites and Blacks. Which the only whites we knew in Hawaii to, were prejudiced to us then because they were the so-called " ; elite" ; , the rich people who owned all the companies and all that. And, and now, everywhere you look... Of course, I trained with stateside people, so I wasn' ; t that... I, I was also you know surprised about the discrimination of Blacks and Mexicans in Texas. And one interesting thing is one Black and one Mexican were my close friends. And I invited them to go downtown to see movies or whatever, and they always refused to go with me. And I didn' ; t know why until I found out that you know, they couldn' ; t sit in the theater with me. Anna Takada: Were these friends who are also in the service? James Saiki: Yeah, yeah. So, that' ; s the first time I really realized about the, the discrimination of the minorities here at stateside, yeah. Anna Takada: Did you ever experience any prejudice or discrimination on that trip or-- James Saiki: On me? Anna Takada: Yeah. When you were... James Saiki: I, I don' ; t think so. I think they accepted the Orientals, I think. I guess they considered us white. Anna Takada: And so, you said you visited your family in California when you went from Texas up the West Coast. So, I, I imagine this was family that was in camp? James Saiki: Right. And, they were farmers too. So, they, they went back to the farm. Anna Takada: Did you... And where, where in California were they? James Saiki: Sacramento. Anna Takada: Sacramento. Did you learn anything about their wartime experiences while you were there? James Saiki: You know I, unfortunately... Because I didn' ; t know either, so I couldn' ; t think of asking them, you know? Anna Takada: Sure. Did they seem kind of settled back into the farm? James Saiki: Yeah. By the time I was there they were pretty much settled I think. I don' ; t, I don' ; t recall whether they owned the farm or they... They had a farm before they left, but I think they lost it. And I don' ; t know if they got it back or they' ; re leasing the farm at that time. Yeah. I, I went there mainly just to meet them, and I didn' ; t even visit the farm or anything. Anna Takada: So, I, I want to backtrack a little bit ' ; cause like I mentioned, we are, we' ; re also interested in learning about what Chicago was like and what drew you know some Japanese Americans after the war to come here. James Saiki: Oh, what happened is my brother that was in the 442, when he got discharged, he came to Chicago to go to technical school. And I think he was back in Hawaii while I was still there. He worked for an appliance outfit doing refrigeration repairs and all that thing. And then, with the brother below him, George got out of the army in ' ; 48 or ' ; 49. He decided to go to Chicago to learn welding, electricity and refrigeration with the intention of coming back and working with his brother and opening up a shop or whatever. But at that time, the economy in Hawaii was very poor. So, my brother told his brother, " ; Don' ; t come back, stay in Chicago." ; So, you know he stayed and found a job in Chicago. And so, when I finished school in Philadelphia... No, yeah. I was planning to go back to California to find a job or go back to Hawaii. And my brother being here, I spent Christmas and New Year' ; s with him. And then, I say, " ; Oh." ; I look around, there' ; s a lot of hospitals there. So, I found a job with Northwestern and they offered me fifty per-- 50% tuition rebate. And it was right across the street from where I was working. So, I said, " ; Oh, I' ; ll give it a try." ; And I found it just a little easier than my first year in college, but somehow I managed to finish and got my bachelor' ; s. Anna Takada: So, what year was that that you got your bachelor' ; s from Northwestern? What year was that? James Saiki: That was, oh, I spent six years on that school. So, ' ; 57 to ' ; 63. Yeah. I think 1963 I graduated. Anna Takada: So, it was ' ; 57 that you came to Chicago? James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: Okay. James Saiki: I' ; ve been here 60 years. Anna Takada: Wow. And where, where had your brothers been living in Chicago? James Saiki: Uptown, 4800 North. So, I stayed with them for almost three years until I got married. Then, I moved out from their place. Anna Takada: And what, what was that neighborhood like at that time? James Saiki: At that time? It wasn' ; t too bad. Not, not like today. Yeah. Because most of the, the Japanese, they started, when they came out of camp, they started in the south side, then they moved up near north, and then they moved to Uptown area and then Skokie and the surrounding suburbs. So, most of our children and the young-- the third generation live in Skokie, Mount Prospect, and all in that area. And I' ; m a second generation, Nisei, so there' ; s very few of us in North Chicago now where I live. Very few. Or, or most of them have passed away. But the younger, third generation, I, I know just a handful that live in so-called Chicago, except some that live downtown in the, the more affluent ones. But most of them I know in the suburbs. Anna Takada: Do you know what the reasons were for that shift? James Saiki: Well, I, I, I guess, again, at that time, there was prejudice. I know when I got married in 1960, I lived in Uptown. And then, when we got married, I tried to, went North Chicago, east Chicago area, and we looked for an apartment. And I know some of the apartments were open because they' ; re advertised and they would say, " ; Oh no, it' ; s sold, or rented." ; And then, after having about half a dozen of that, I realized that it' ; s because we were Japanese, they wouldn' ; t. But you know after that, it kind of opened up. Anna Takada: And that, that seems to be a pretty common experience for people who came from camp in, in the 40s. So, even as late as 1960, it was still difficult to find housing? James Saiki: Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, certain areas. Anna Takada: Sure. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: Did, had you had any expectations about what Chicago would be like before you' ; d moved here? James Saiki: I' ; m sorry, what? Anna Takada: Did you have any expectations about what Chicago would be like before coming? James Saiki: No, I, I was just passing through. I wanted to see the big city. Anna Takada: And... James Saiki: And then I had some friends who were living here too. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So, you mentioned that there was a Japanese American community here. James Saiki: Oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Anna Takada: That there' ; s a number of families. James Saiki: Yeah. There were quite a few, even Christian churches. I was Buddhist but I was converted perhaps later. But there was about probably one of each denomination, baptist, congregational... I know there were at least six or seven, which we, we had a lot of gatherings together or functions together. And we had a real... And also, they have a golf organization and there was about 10 different golf clubs. And then, then the sports program for the children. And then, at that time, you have to be oriental or married to a, you know... to qualify. Because at that time, our children were still not as tall to compete with the Americans. So, we had this program so that it would be more competitive for them. And so, we had baseball, basketball, volleyball, swimming, track meets. All these teams from these churches or private groups would meet. And so, that, that was very exciting. Anna Takada: Can you tell me, or can you give me some of the, the names of some of these groups or churches that you were talking about? Like what, what were the, those predominantly Japanese American institutions at that time? James Saiki: Oh they, they were all, you know. Anna Takada: Well, what are some of the, their names? James Saiki: Well, the church I went to, the Church of Christ Presbyterian. And when I first went there in ' ; 57, I think there were only two whites. And then, there were the two non-denominational churches. One congregational church, one Methodist Church. Anna Takada: Do you remember what they were called, these churches? James Saiki: Well, Lakeside, and Devon and Ravenswood. Those, those were the Christian churches. And then there were one, two... Two large Buddhist church. One was called Midwest, and the other one, the Buddhist Temple of Chicago. That was in Uptown. Midwest was on Menomonee, where, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Lincoln Park. James Saiki: You, you knew. Anna Takada: So it sounds like these, well, you said that through church and some of these groups, there was a lot of social activity. James Saiki: Yeah, that, those are all gone now because the kids are in suburbs and being involved in soccer and school activities. I think they have, they still have a basketball training camp or something going on. That, that' ; s the only thing I can recall now. But it was good for me because I was involved in all the activities, coaching or participating, so, that, that was a good outlet. Anna Takada: Where did you meet your wife? James Saiki: At church. Anna Takada: At church. Can you tell me a little bit more about... Well, let' ; s see. You were married in ' ; 60? James Saiki: 1960. Anna Takada: In 1960, so you two had met. Was it at just at a church service, or-- James Saiki: The wedding? Anna Takada: No, I' ; m sorry, where you met. James Saiki: Well, both my brother and his wife, my sister-in-law, they' ; re very devout Christians. My brother sang in the choir and my sister-in-law was the organist. So the first Friday I was there, it was choir practice, so not no choice, but you know, I went to there. And then Sunday they, they were going to church chorus, and I said, " ; I' ; ll go with them." ; And I' ; ve been doing that ever since. And then we had North minister' ; s organization, which was all singles. So we, we got our own picnics and outings, about 15, 20 of us. And so that' ; s how. Anna Takada: After you were married, did you stay in Uptown? James Saiki: Yes, I spent three years on Lawrence and Hermitage. And the reason I got there, because one of our members had a three flat apartment, and so you know, they, they opened it up to me. So I stayed there three years and then a three flat building on Winthrop and Buren was available, and my friend asked me if I was interested to buy it. Financially, I was, I could have bought it, but somehow it was only $1,000 down. And then I took out a second mortgage, and so you know that' ; s the only reason I could afford it. So we were there 10 years and I, I' ; m not cut out to be a land, landlord. And, I' ; m not good at fixing things and all that. After 10 years, I' ; m going to get rid of it. No, yeah, I wanted to get rid of it much earlier, but one of my friends that worked for me in the lab said, " ; Hey, James, you want to buy my house?" ; " ; Buy your house?" ; he said, " ; We' ; re going to sell it." ; So I went over to look at it you and it is in Budlong Woods. And oh, he was kind of attractive and the price wasn' ; t you know that high at that time just before the economy run out. And so I said, " ; Okay." ; So I got rid of the building. So I stayed there from ' ; 75 until three years ago. Anna Takada: Wow. James Saiki: Over 25, 30 years there. And so I' ; m in a senior apartment now. Anna Takada: And when you first came to Chicago, did you notice or were there other like Japanese American businesses or grocery stores? James Saiki: Oh yeah, yeah. Some of them are still around, grocery stores. And there were a few, I guess souvenir shops. I don' ; t know if they still, I don' ; t think they' ; re still around. Anna Takada: What areas would were they in or what were some of-- James Saiki: I think they were mostly on Clark Street, around 300 North, all the way up there. I know they were about three or four in that area, grocery stores and restaurants by like Wrigley Field. I' ; m familiar with that place because our church is half a block south of the ballpark. Anna Takada: And if you were to describe what the Japanese American community was like kind of around your, the earlier days that you were here? James Saiki: As I mentioned, I, the only thing was the sports program that I, I was involved in, in our church. Other than that, I, I wasn' ; t active in the JACL or JASC. So I was, most of my time was devoted to church, church activities. Anna Takada: Did you have any children? James Saiki: Yeah, I have two, two boys. I lost my elder son two years ago. Anna Takada: Oh, I' ; m sorry. James Saiki: He was fifty, 53 years old. And my youngest son is eight years younger and he, they both went to University of Illinois. And my youngest son is a physical therapist and the wife is medical research. And so she was offer-- she was at Abbott, and she offered the job in California, a real good job. So they moved when my younger son-- my younger grandson was nine months old, to California, and they' ; ve been there ever since. Anna Takada: So the, the apartment that you would have-- or, where you would' ; ve been raising them, which home that you mentioned to me did you raise them? James Saiki: My, my children? Anna Takada: Yes. James Saiki: Well, the, the first, my older son was at the Hermitage and then Winthrop, and then the home I bought, or that they both, you know, and then they both left home. Anna Takada: What schools did they go to? James Saiki: Well, both of them went to Goudy, that' ; s on Buren and Winthrop at the grammar school. And my oldest son went to Lane Tech and my youngest son went to Lincoln Park, Lincoln Park yeah. Anna Takada: Did they also go to, to church and maybe, were they involved in the sports programs? James Saiki: Right, they were both, both very involved. Anna Takada: And you mentioned that you, the sports program. It was the athletic association, was it the Chicago Nisei? James Saiki: For the Chicago, yes, we participated in that. And also, I was very involved with the Chicago Golf, Golf Association. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit more about those, maybe what your roles were or what you would-- James Saiki: Well, in the Chicago Golf Association, gee, probably in 1960 I got... When I first went to our church, we had just our church group and we played on Saturday. And then in order to play with the other groups, we joined the so-called Nisei golf and we had 10 of ' ; em. And I got involved right away and I, I did all the lineup and score keeping and the prize distribution for almost 30 years. So I knew almost hundreds of golfer-- Nisei golfers. And then for the sports program for NCAA, I, I played in the men' ; s baseball and volleyball. And I coached my, my two sons when my oldest son was 10, 10 years until he graduated high school. And then my youngest son being eight years younger, he began, so I, I was a coach for the baseball team all those years. Anna Takada: And why was that, I mean given that you were so involved, why is that something that was important to you, or that you were, or that made you interested? James Saiki: Well, the church is because you know, my faith, the baseball, because of my two sons, and for the golf, because I love golf. And I love to play volleyball, so I was involved in events. In fact, our team almost organized because volleyball wasn' ; t that popular at that time. Anna Takada: So we just have a, a few minutes left. I, there were a couple of questions that I did want to come back to, if that' ; s okay with you. I guess one thing I, I would be curious to know about is, as, of course as you know, a lot of, a lot of folks from the Japanese American community came to Chicago during and very closely after the war. James Saiki: Yeah. Anna Takada: And many of whom also went through this camp experience, which you hadn' ; t known about or obviously experienced yourself. I' ; d be curious to know how, like what that was like for you to learn about what had happened, because it you know, it affected not only your own family but your wife as well. Can you just tell me a little bit more about what that was like to learn about? James Saiki: It, you know, I don' ; t know what the word to use, but unbelievable, or I just can' ; t imagine something like that happened. Yeah, list-- you know listening to those who are involved in camp, and, and then when they had redress hearing at the-- Anna Takada: Northeastern. James Saiki: Northeastern, I went to see that. And that, I really learned a lot listening to the testimonies and that. Anna Takada: What made you want to go listen to the hearings? Or how did you-- James Saiki: Because I, I wanted to, to learn more because I knew just, just very little of what had happened. Yeah. And so you know, it really opened my eyes, listening to it. And I guess it, it actually again, drew me closer to my mainland peers you know? Anna Takada: Had you learned from, from your wife about her own family experiences, or was that something-- James Saiki: Well yeah, she was so young, so she, she don' ; t remember very little because she' ; s what, eight years old, seven and a half. So she, only thing she learned-- remembered playing, so it was fun time. And then I really didn' ; t get a chance to talk too much to her mom and dad about camp, which I have or, I should' ; ve, but I didn' ; t. Anna Takada: And I' ; m wondering if, if you experienced, because so many people in Chicago had gone, of course not-- You know, it wasn' ; t like everybody came from camp, but a lot of people did. James Saiki: Yeah, mhmm. Anna Takada: Did you ever notice like any, any diff-- like in interacting with people who had been in camp? James Saiki: In camp? You know I, I' ; ve never had you know, talked to even like close friends, very little. The only one person who was one of those No-No Boys, I heard a lot of his experience and why he you know did what he did, which you know I could understand why and all that. And a lot of the camp experience, of course, you know, Jean, she' ; s in our church and I see her two or three times a week. And so she' ; s been telling us all the different programs that she' ; s involved in. And I went to several of those you know, so I learned a lot from that. Yeah. Anna Takada: One thing that I like to ask people toward the end of the conversation is, is about kind of your, your legacy. So like, with your, with your son or, or grandchildren, you know what is, if you could leave something behind, some kind of message or anything with your, with your family or future generations, what' ; s something you would want to, to pass on? James Saiki: Well you know, I grew up in a family that were very close, you know we supported one another. I, I can' ; t recall fighting or saying bad things to my brothers, all, even up to today. And so I hope and I' ; m sure that both my sons I' ; ve taken to our family functions and they realize how our, our family functions. And I think both of them are trying to carry on that tradition about being open, being friendly, being hospitable, being caring. And both of my sons are involved with us in church, so they' ; re very devout Christians and both my grandsons are very devout. So hopefully, they too, from their mom and dad... And we have a so-called Saiki reunion every two to five years. And I just came back from one last week, we had 81 people just from my clan. And I, even that, I can sense that all the cousins, grandsons, grandcousins know each other you know? There' ; s 22 fifth generation, 58 thir-- fourth generation, and about 50 third generation. There' ; s only seven of us second generation left, but you know, they come from Utah, Arizona, Seattle, Oregon and Chicago and Hawaii. And most of them know each other, they you know, they keep corresponding. And through these activities, they get together. And that' ; s something that I' ; m grateful for, my upbringing, because my eldest brother was that type, caring and inviting people. All the functions in Hawaii, most of the time they came to our house, New Years and all the big functions. And our home was always open you know? And mom and dad, although their education was very limited, at least they could read and write and a lot of the others could barely read and write. So they would come to our house to have their letters read or have mom and dad write letters to them, or if they needed any counseling, I know they always came to see mom and dad. So you know, I grew up in that type of atmosphere, so hopefully I can carry on that tradition. I' ; ve tried to, anyway. (laughs) Anna Takada: Well, before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to share, or anything I may have missed in this conversation? James Saiki: Not really. I think I said most of what I want, maybe too much. (laughs) Anna Takada: Thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to speak with me. Appreciate it. James Saiki: Yeah, thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaikiJames20180719.xml SaikiJames20180719.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Sort Priority
6900
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saiki, James (7/19/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
James Saiki, a nisei born and raised in Hawaii, describes his parents' immigration from Yamaguchi prefecture and his experiences growing up as one of nine siblings on a farm in Wailua, Kauai. Eight years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed, he recalls singing patriotic songs at school, the departure of an older brother to serve with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, and his lack of awareness of the incarceration of Japanese Americans on the mainland. Joining the U.S. Army after just one year at the University of Hawaii, he received training as a laboratory technician before serving in the Korean War, followed by two years stationed in Tokyo. After his discharge from the army, he studied in Phildelphia before joining his brothers in Chicago to work and study at Northwestern University. He reflects on his involvement with the Church of Christ Presbyterian and the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association and expresses a hope that his descendants will continue a family tradition of caring and hospitality.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/29f0532821487f2c0e470b4b96451433.png
3f2d5650db832c23db9945818d2502cf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Shikami, James
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ShikamiJames20171025.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Santa Monica, CA
Manzanar
Wind
Dust
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Lake Forest, IL
Football
Christ Church of Chicago
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/27/2017 Shikami, James (10/25/2017) 1:28:49 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Santa Monica, CA Manzanar Wind Dust 442nd Regimental Combat Team Lake Forest, IL Football Christ Church of Chicago Shikami, James Takada, Anna video 1:|18(12)|26(10)|34(6)|45(10)|63(5)|71(4)|76(14)|83(7)|90(1)|98(4)|104(6)|111(16)|119(6)|126(7)|144(11)|154(3)|161(3)|168(11)|177(10)|185(6)|194(9)|201(1)|209(5)|215(10)|223(5)|231(10)|238(11)|245(12)|252(11)|260(2)|270(9)|277(12)|286(7)|293(7)|303(9)|308(8)|325(1)|331(4)|338(2)|345(5)|352(13)|359(4)|368(14)|376(12)|384(1)|390(14)|398(2)|404(14)|412(8)|418(5)|426(3)|434(15)|444(5)|452(1)|458(10)|466(1)|481(9)|487(3)|492(11)|498(8)|504(12)|512(2)|518(1)|525(2)|531(5)|537(8)|543(15)|551(11)|560(10)|569(13)|576(6)|597(8)|603(4)|609(1)|616(7)|630(5)|636(3)|645(1)|656(12)|664(5)|672(6)|684(1)|690(14)|698(5)|706(9)|722(5)|728(14)|736(5) 0 https://vimeo.com/304423752/7a5eab6e75 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/304423752?h=7a5eab6e75" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; James Shikami, a nisei born and raised in Southern California, paints a detailed picture of his family's life before World War II. He recounts his father's entrepreneurial successes and failures and his own busy childhood attending Japanese language school and practicing kendo. With great clarity, he describes the family's preparation for and arrival at Manzanar, where his father served as a block manager and a respected member of the camp council. James recalls both the natural beauty and the terrible dust and wind, acknowledging that as the youngest child, he was spared the worst of the hardship. Arriving in Chicago after their release, James and his parents first joined his sisters and their children on the South Side before eventually moving to Lake Forest to work for a wealthy family. He descibes high school experiences that included athletic and academic success and social acceptance with certain limitations, and his frequent visits to Chicago to date Japanese American girls. He also discusses his experiences attending Lake Forest College and the University of Pennsylvania, working at Carson Pirie Scott, and reaching out to other identity groups in Chicago to express solidarity in the wake of 9/11 and rising anti-Muslim sentiment. Anna Takada: Could you just state your full name? James Shikami: Full name is James Y Shikami. Anna Takada: And, where and when were you born? James Shikami: I was born in October 27th, 1931. Anna Takada: And where were you born? James Shikami: In Los Angeles. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about your hometown, what it was like growing up in LA? James Shikami: Well, actually where I, my family lived was in Santa Monica, California. We had a very large nursery, it was almost a block square, at 17th and Wilshire Boulevard, in California. And it was a, a interesting time, primarily because we had carried all kinds of plants and shrubbery, and even banana trees. We had a big... It was like a caged area with the glass. And in there were the banana trees. And it was fun because to go in there, there' ; d be all kinds of, of bugs of all sorts. And we, my brothers and I, we made slingshots out of wire and we would wad up paper and we would shoot at the different spiders hoping to strike them. So it was a fun time there. And-- Anna Takada: How many brothers did you have or siblings? James Shikami: I, my father was like a time clock, every two years there would be someone new. And so I had four sisters first and then the three brothers, and I was the youngest. And so it happened that I being the youngest, I really didn' ; t have to do too much except enjoy myself in the surroundings. And my older brother, Reggie, he at a early age really took responsibility. And even without a driver' ; s license, at, just going onto 15, he would take our International truck to deliver trees and shrubbery to our customers. And he would always call several of his friends who immediately came over to help. He had that com-commanding type of, of power to, to convince others to help him. And so he would get into his truck with everything, and he, you can hear the tires really wheel around, and he would go and do the work. And so he really amongst everyone, and they all looked upon him as quite a person and respected him. Anna Takada: Did you ever join him in those rides? James Shikami: No, I didn' ; t. Sometimes my other brother above me would join him, but he didn' ; t like to do the kind of work that he was doing, but he was forced to go. And I, luckily being the youngest, I stayed home and he would get something for me as a confectionary item that he would always drop off. So, I was the baby and I was treated that way. Anna Takada: And so the, the eldest daughter, what year was she born? Or what was kind of like the age range? James Shikami: Well, it was about every two years apart. So, I would think going back, what would that be? 1931? It must have been in the 20s, right? Early 20s, maybe. Anna Takada: Or maybe even-- James Shikami: Maybe even earlier. Anna Takada: Yeah. James Shikami: It was, I' ; m not sure, I' ; m not... Anna Takada: And your parents, where were they from originally? James Shikami: My father was from a suburb, suburb of Nagoya, and my mother was from Matsuyama. My father' ; s father was the mayor of the town, and he was also a sumo king of that area, and, which meant that my father would have to take over that same position and he didn' ; t think that would be fun and it wouldn' ; t be his character. So that' ; s when he asked a friend of his to see if he could go to America. And eventually he did go. My mother in Matsuyama, her parents had a very nice hotel. And the mother passed away while she was fairly young, in, she was in high school. And she was going to a... I think it was a Congregational church school. But then she helped her, her father with the administration of the h- of the hotel. And eventually the two met, and baishakunin, they, they were married. But my father has an interesting story because when he came to the United States, he ended up at a farm orchard combination near San Francisco. And the owner got to like him very much. And after about three years, he said he' ; s selling a portion of his orchard to him. Now being Japanese, he couldn' ; t own anything, but in paper he had made it out that this was his property. And then about, I think it was, and I' ; m, I' ; m not sure I' ; ve been told this, but about another three years, he decided he wanted to leave to go to Los Angeles to see what opportunities would be there. And the owner of the facilities at the farm, he said, " ; Well, you can sell me back the property." ; So he had the fair market value, he gave him-- my dad the money so that when he went to Los Angeles, he' ; d have money to use. And my father looking around, he found that the grocery stores at that time had items that were staple items like flour and salt and all kinds of goods for the kitchen. But they didn' ; t have fresh fruits or vegetables. And therefore he talked to the manager of the store or the owner of the store and said, " ; Would it be acceptable for me to put fresh vegetables and, and fruits on the sidewalk right in front of your store? So as the customers come through, they can also see that you have all of these things, they don' ; t have to go to a, to a, a vegetable stand to get it, they can get it all here." ; And so they agreed on a certain percent and the whole thing worked out very nicely. So then my dad opened up another one and he had a manager take care of that. And then he had, he ended up with about, I think below or seven or eight of these venues. And he was making very good money. And at that time, a friend of his from Japan who had just gotten his geology degree, came and visited with Dad. And Dad asked him, because Rockefeller was making oil at that time. And so he asked the gentleman to go look for oil. And so he came back and he said, " ; In the Mojave Desert, there' ; s definitely oil." ; And so my dad sold all of his stores, his fruit stands and, and vegetable stands. And he got three others, Japanese, to put money together. And they hired an engineer and a person that was a, an expert in oil drilling, and they went into the Mojave Desert and they dug for oil. Well, when they struck oil, I was born, and that' ; s why my middle name is Yuji, Y-U-J-I, which is the river of oil. And it was a success, we were, oil was coming, it was great. Then, within a month, the professional driller and the engineer in the evening were killed. And my father thought it was probably something that Rockefeller' ; s people had something to do with it, but who knows? Anyway, all of a sudden the oil had some mixtures of water and things that they didn' ; t know how to overcome. And so the whole thing collapsed. And so my father lost everything, he had to start all over again. And then he went into the field that most Japanese were doing at that time was being gardeners. And that' ; s what he did. He, he had big estates that he took over, Paul Muni' ; s estate along the beach. And really worked hard, I don' ; t know how he ever did it, because in those days there was large lawns and they had, he had to push it by hand, hand mower. And I don' ; t, it seemed almost impossible that he could do it, but he did it. And he eventually was able to put enough funds together to buy a small nursery. And then later to get our nursery at 17th and Wilshire Boulevard in California. So he, he was a leader. He, he also helped found the Japanese school in Santa Monica. And so we had to go to Japanese school every day right after American school. We would leave there at 3:00, we get to Japanese school at 3:30, we' ; d study till 6:30, and then half-day on Saturday. And s-- and then, what was it, I was nine years old, I, I joined the Kendo group. So I was with the, ended up with the traveling group of Kendo in our, from our school. And so we traveled and competed against other gakuens, other schools, Japanese schools, all along the southern California area. So I had a good learning experience there as well, but it was a, it was a good time. Anna Takada: Sounds like you had a, a busy schedule as a child-- James Shikami: Yes, right. Anna Takada: Between school, Japanese school and Kendo. James Shikami: Yeah, I w-- I was lucky in that leaving Amer-- the American school, I would go with my friend Ben Goto, his home was close to the school. So we would drop there. And his mother always had onigiri, a little round onigiri with some kind of treat in the center. And so we each had one of those before we got to school. So it was a, yeah, it was a good time. Anna Takada: And so it sounds like there were a lot of other... There was quite a Japanese American community there-- James Shikami: In Santa Monica, there, there were quite a few. We were basically separated from an enclave of them because we had our big nursery and we were slightly away. But yes, there were a number of... And enough to have a school that I think at that time, we must have had somewhere about 100 parents involved with their children. And we used to have movie nights every Saturday at the gakuen, at the school. And so it was, it was fun. Anna Takada: And how, how did things change for, for you and your family after the attack of Pearl Harbor? Do you remember that day? James Shikami: Yes. That was, I think it was, if I recall, I think it was a Sunday, right? December 7th. And Sunday at our house, my sisters all had boyfriends. They would all come over on Sunday. And they really treasured my mother' ; s so, so-called chicken, it wasn' ; t chicken, it was rabbit. But they didn' ; t know, and we didn' ; t tell them. We grew rabbits in our nursery in a little area, and so we had rabbits. And so they would come and they, they were waiting for that meal. And we would play games and everything. And I loved to play cards, and so we would play card games. And then it got to the point where they talked to my sisters and says they didn' ; t think I should play because they said, " ; Your brother cheats." ; And I said, " ; Wait a minute, I don' ; t cheat, I' ; m just better than you." ; But they got their way, so I stayed out of the, out of that. But they came over every Sunday, and that' ; s when we heard that it had happened. And I thought that my school friends would be very angry and would call me names. But my school friends who I was very close to, they never called me a Jap. And in fact, they were really, friendly as before. And some of them, my closest friends said that they would like to go with me to the camp, primarily because they had heard that was a, in a valley with beautiful mountains that had snow caps on it. And the valley had all kinds of fruit trees, and it had a little river, it had everything that a kid would want. So they, they said they' ; d like to go with me. And I said, " ; Well, you' ; re not Japanese so you won' ; t be able to go." ; But I didn' ; t feel that kind of pressure at school, nor did I see it when I went to grocery shopping with my sister at Rogers, at the supermarket store. I didn' ; t feel any kind of people ready to call me names, they may have looked at me a little strange at first, but I didn' ; t experience that like many others had. And even my wife was talking about their saying, " ; Well, they called themselves Chinese." ; Well, we didn' ; t feel that pressure, at least I didn' ; t. So things didn' ; t change that much. And in the home, of course, my mother and father sat down and they went through a lot of our papers, papers that we had, and photographs, et cetera. And they burned a lot of things that they thought might not be good at this time. And one was, I think their cousin who was in the military and had pictures of him and he was some kind of officer. So those things were taken care of. And we were kind of restricted in terms of curfew, so that, you know, we had to live with. And, so that was the situation until we saw the notices on the, on the different poles, I don' ; t know what poles they were, but anyway, there were notices of, that we would have to go to camp. Anna Takada: Do you remember seeing those notices as a child? James Shikami: I saw a couple, and so I knew what was going to happen. And my oldest sister, Mabel, after reading that and the further instructions, she went to JC Penny department store, and bought large cardboard suitcases for each of us because you can only carry, you know, take what you can carry. And so that was what we had. So we were in a way set to go. Our nursery, which we had rented because we couldn' ; t own, we were about to purchase it, we had enough money to purchase it. And our oldest daughter, Mabel, had just turned 21. And so we could put the property under her name as an American citizen. So we were going through the negotiations, my parents were with our lawyer, a fantastic lawyer from Encino, California who really liked our family. So he was putting things together and then the war came. And so that killed everything. And fortunately, my parents had put money into the Japanese bank, but they also put money into an American bank. The Japanese bank money, of course, was not available at all, that was taken away, but we, they still had the American bank. So we were fortunate as a family that my parents had money when we went to camp. And our lawyer in Encino, he handled that. So anytime we needed money from that bank, he had the right to issue a check and send the money to camp, to, to handle anything that we might need. So, and, and then during this time, many Japanese families were visited by the FBI. And many of the fathers were sent. The FBI came to our nursery, and I remember that ' ; cause I was there when they did come. And, but my father was also a volunteer for the Santa Monica Red Cross organization. And so when the FBI came, they said they came to tell him not to worry, that they are not in any way going to send him anywhere, that they respect what he has done in the community. And so they then left, so he didn' ; t have to worry about going to, to a prison or being sent to a far away detention center. So in that way, that was good. We, so we had to sell stuff that we owned. We had a brand-new International Harvester truck, brand new. We had a big, that was a Packard convertible. That, my dad loved cars, and he had different new cars. So we had to get, get rid of them. And so that was a trying period, because you' ; re not going to get much for it when they know that you' ; re going to have to go to camp. And then so finally we sold a lot of our materials and equipment to a prospector from Oregon who paid I think it was $700 for everything, and that was it. But, yeah it was a trying time, but it had to be. Anna Takada: Do you remember your thoughts or reactions at the time as a child? Were you pretty aware of everything that was going on? James Shikami: Well, yeah, I was aware primarily because at that time the, in Southern California, there were reports that Japanese were about to invade California in submarines, attack Los Angeles. And they did-- said, they said, and I am not sure, but they said they captured small submarines, like a three-man submarines with Japanese soldiers inside. And there were planes that flew over that they had search lights going on because they didn' ; t know for sure if it was American or Japanese. So there was a lot of commotion I remember at that time. And so basically, I knew what was happening and I knew I had to be careful. But I think I wasn' ; t as much afraid primarily because at school I found the environment not really changed that much. This thing happened though, in December, after the war started, I had developed pains in my stomach. And, so happened that my second sister, Helen, was getting married to Mike Hori, and they were to have the celebration in Los Angeles. And I was so sick that a doctor had come and said that I would need to have further examination at the hospital. But, but my parents and everybody went to the wedding ceremony in Los, Los Angeles, except my third sister, Ruth, who said that she would stay behind and she would call the doctor if I had even more pains. And then the doctor did come and he said, " ; As before, you have to go to the hospital." ; And so I went to the hospit-- they took me to the hospital and they had said the appendicitis had broken and they had to operate. But my parents weren' ; t there, and my sister was younger than 21, Ruth. And so they said, " ; But we need authorization." ; And but they, it was almost an impossibility. So, they finally, I think and I don' ; t know how this happened, but I think they finally made contact with my mother in Los Angeles and was able to get authorization. And so the operation was done, everything. And I was in the hospital room and, in recovery. And the next day I received presents. And apparently a older gentleman was in the hospital and he had heard about my situation. And he made sure that I felt welcome, that even though the war had occurred, he, he said, " ; I want you to know you have a friend." ; And he said, " ; I hope you get well quickly." ; And he sent the gift to me. So, almost in every instance, the classroom, what happened at the, after the surgery, kind of, you know it gave me a feeling of, of hope that things would be okay. And, so that was, I think that was in December. And then in, I think was it, April? It took that long before we went to camp. And there were others that went to Manzanar who helped build the barracks, et cetera, but we were the later ones that went. And so one morning we went to Venice, California and got on a bus and there was a convoy of buses. And the military trucks were in front and back and off we went to Manzanar, which was 220 miles northwest ah--northeast of Los Angeles. Anna Takada: And, so your family went straight to Manzanar? James Shikami: Yes, we didn' ; t go to a relocation center, we went straight to Manzanar. So it was, it was a long drive. And I' ; ll always remember the, the bus stopped twice along as we traveled and stopped twice in the desert area and everybody got off to relieve themselves. And it was really tragic for the females, because you' ; re out in the desert, you know, us little ones 10 years old, we didn' ; t care, you just did it, and, but it was quite a scene. But it was done, and we eventually got to Manzanar around dusk. And when we got there, my oldest sister, Mabel, got off the bus, went to the table to get our instructions in terms of the block number and the barrack number and the room number that we' ; re assigned to. And then we, we all got off the bus and we found our luggage, and we had to put that, each suitcase on the table for the military police to look at it and look at everything so that there was no contraband items, cameras and knives and shortwave radios, et cetera. So after that was done, we were put on trucks and we were driven to a big building, and at that building we were given canvas bags and we had to fill them with straw, and that became our, our mattress. And then they gave us a large tin cup, a small tin cup, and utensils. And then we were driven to our block num-- block, and then to our barrack, and we were assigned room number two. And room number one was an office to be used by the block manager who was eventually chosen. So we were room number two, 20-by-25 foot area. And the b-- the cots were there, there were I think two blankets per cot and a sheet and a small pillow. And we had one light for the whole area hanging from the ceiling. And we had a kerosene stove, a, a round kerosene stove in the center. And that was our living for our camp years. And unlike many other families where their father may have been quite creative and good with their hands, my father was more of a leader and he didn' ; t have any talent as far as his hands, and therefore we had no benches. We had really, we had our cots and we had the kerosene stove, we didn' ; t have cupboards, we didn' ; t, he didn' ; t make anything. So our r-- our room was bare. So we are one of the probably 20% of the, of the rooms that had nothing. So it, I think it showed a different kind of living compared to others. Anna Takada: And so were you with, was the whole family together? James Shikami: Yes, all together initially. And then soon, Mabel, the oldest left, and Ruth left soon thereafter to join their husbands who were drafted into the military. And they, the two of them, the two men, Paul and Sada, were stationed at, golly, it were, it was a base in, I believe in Kansas. And so they joined them there. And then about a year later, Florence, the youngest daughter joined her husband in Lexington, Kentucky, at another military base where he was a soldier. They eventually, all three of ' ; em ended up in Mississippi for the 442nd, but they were initially separated. And the other sister, second sister, Helen, she, the one that just got married right after the war. She came to Manzanar, so she was in another block from us. Anna Takada: With her husband? James Shikami: Yes, mhmm. Anna Takada: And, so how long... At what point did they start moving, your sisters? James Shikami: My sisters? Well-- Anna Takada: Was it before the end of the war? James Shikami: Oh, oh, they, they left, Mabel left within a month to join her husband. And then it was, I think must have been a good six months later, Ruth went and went to the same camp to her, her husband' ; s military establishment also in Kansas. And, and then it was a year after that that Florence left to join Karl in Lexington. So, so that left basically my oldest brother, Reggie, and of course my sister Helen in a different block, Joe, the one right above me and myself were in camp in our, in our room. And my father was chosen as block manager. And he then was on the camp council. And he also was the Red Cross chairman in camp as well. And he, everybody seemed to really trust him. And therefore when there were problems, the camp council, I remember they asked my father to, at one time to take over the general store, management of the general store because the manager of the general store had left camp to go to Chicago, took amounts, a large amount of money to buy goods and never came back. And there was an uproar in camp. And so the council asked my dad to take over the leadership of, of the general store. And when he took over the leadership and people in the community found that he became the leader, things slowly went back to normal. And then he, they came up, they assigned a new general manager leader, and he then left that position because he didn' ; t really want to be there anyway, but he had to be. The second time they requested his service from the camp council was that the Kibei young group at one time had decided that they wanted to deface women who were engaged to American soldiers, Japanese American soldiers. And so he had to go to the Kibei group a number of times and talk to them about why, that this should not be done. And the honor of Japanese would be really affected. Anyway, he was able to convince them to not perform the task and to even sign a pledge that they would not. That was the second thing. And then the, I think, oh, the third thing was not a camp council thing, but it was something within our block, and I, I think it showed the character of my dad. In camp, they were starting to lay linoleum on the floors. So block 17 had a date and they were going to come in and they were going to lay the lino, linoleum and they' ; re going to go by barrack, by barrack, by barrack, et cetera. And some in the block, in our block 17, came to my father and said, " ; We don' ; t, we think you should not have any linoleum laid down for this family in barrack something, in room number, because they' ; re Eta." ; They are the lowest form within Japanese society, they ostracize them. And my father said, " ; No, the linoleum is going to be placed just as scheduled, one by one, and there won' ; t be any interruptions." ; And that their argument holds nothing in terms of how he will handle the situation. So he, he believed in doing things correctly, and he was willing to stand up to those who felt that discrimination was important. So that showed another side of him. And so the camp council, they, they knew who, who the leader was within their group that they could lean on. So, and even as a little child, I knew these things were happening ' ; cause I could hear my father talk to my mother and there' ; s... Anna Takada: And so you, understandably so, you seem to have a lot of memories of your father and kind of the role that he took on in, in camp. What are some of your, your memories of your mother and, and what was she like? James Shikami: My mother is, was the cog that held everybody together, even when we had the nursery, she was the one that was handling the finances. And she would really, my dad-- because everything was going so well, my dad would, he' ; s the type of person that if someone came to him and it was very cold or rainy and he didn' ; t have a raincoat, he would take his own raincoat and give it to him. And he would also do the same thing with finances, he would donate money to this cause and that cause and my mother keeping the books and everything, she finally would have to tell him you know, " ; It' ; s nice, it' ; s good everything you' ; re doing, but there are limitations." ; And so she kind of managed that. And also in terms of discipline for us, all she had to do was say one word and we would listen. My father is so busy doing other things. And so the business and the family thing, the mother of course, was the one that we all looked up to. And when we went to camp, she didn' ; t show any animosity to what had happened, it, it' ; s just happened. And she knew the reason why we were going, because of the war. And in some, in some way she made the most of it in camp. She helped organize women to... She knew quite a bit of sewing from back in Japan, so she was teaching them how to sew so they can, they can create things in camp for the children. And then she learned how to make paper flowers in camp, she learned how to make certain types of Japanese desserts. I mean, she was willing to go and learn anything and everything that was available. And then she also became a very good Buddha print, print, you know, brush print. And in fact, in our home now in Glenview, we have a couple of her, her writings in Buddha and with special meaning to us, so she learned that as well. So she was one that was always willing to learn and always willing to help others. And for us children, I' ; m sure she told the same story to the others, but she sat me down and, and she came from a very religious background with the congregational church, and she said that, you know, " ; In life you' ; re going to be climbing a mountain, all kinds of choices." ; And she says, " ; It' ; s up to you to make the choices that you feel are right." ; And she says, " ; When it comes to religion, you don' ; t have to follow my religion. I want you to decide for yourself what you want out of life. And if religion is a part that you would like, then you have to find that religion." ; So she says, " ; It' ; s up to you." ; And that' ; s how I' ; m sure, ' ; cause my father on the other hand, he had an experience in San Francisco with a Methodist church after the earthquake, they seemed to treat him very nicely to overcome that. And so he found a First Methodist church in Santa Monica, and he made friends with that minister and that minister came in his car to pick myself and my other brother, Joe, to go to church. And we didn' ; t care going to church, but we had to go because he would pick us up. Now, First Methodist is the kind of church that you have to on Sunday take life on a, as a very religious person. So you cannot look at comics, you cannot look at-- go to a movie, do anything that' ; s really fun and exciting. You had to be calm and be looking at ways as a religious person should look at it. And that was totally opposite of our character, so we struggled through that. And I think even today, my children, I have given them the same instructions, that it' ; s their choice what they do. There are many choices. So they all went to Christ Church of Chicago when they were young, but I don' ; t think any of them have stayed with religion per se. They, I think they have learned the feelings that we have, both Lois and I, that the most important thing is to show love, compassion, and humility as the main elements of one' ; s life. Although Lois, my wife is very, very happy with, with her life with Christ Church of Chicago, she' ; s very involved with it. I was very involved with it, I was a moderator three times. I found the church that they are in now. I had to search for that church, but I no longer am part of it as, as an official part of it, I still help them and everything. Anna Takada: When in camp at Manzanar, was, were you practicing? Was there a church in camp? James Shikami: Yes, I went to the Protestant, well, they had a, more of a non-denominational Protestant type of church, which I went to on occasions. I also went to a Catholic church on occasion. And I went to those churches from a selfish standpoint because on certain days they had treats. And for a youngster, my friend and I would go and we would go and sit through the whole program. And at the end of the program, of course, there were treats and especially they would give lots of treats to the young ones. So it was a good experience. Anna Takada: One thing I wanted to ask you was about your first impressions of, of Manzanar and just entering that fully new... James Shikami: Well, after settling into our room. And, the first three nights we had roll call, military officer would come, call our name, we would have to stand in front of our room outside. And after all of the names were called, nine of us would be standing, and then he would excuse us and said he' ; ll be back the next night. So, I knew we, and of course you can see the towers with the search lights and the wires, and so you knew that you, you were there incarcerated, okay. But during the day when you wake up, you see a, a different landscape. The Sierra Nevadas were very high, and they were always snow-capped. And so it was beautiful, we were in a valley. And there were fruit trees, not many of them, but there were fruit trees. I think they were apples and peaches, and, but they weren' ; t really treated well, so they didn' ; t give that much fruit, but a little bit. They were there. They had the Inyo Mountains on the opposite side, which had no snow on it, it wasn' ; t quite as high, but it was high. And so we were surrounded by mountains in, in this valley. And so it was, it was, I thought, a beautiful place, they had a little stream at one corner and it, it hit a, sort of a well. So it created a, a small area where we could jump in and we could do our little swimming around in this little area. So you had desert, you had beautiful mountains, you had a little stream of water. It was, it was from a nature standpoint, it was nice, it was... It was something to look at. But then when the wind blew the wind, and they were strong winds, it would pick up the sand and the sage brush and they' ; d be flying. And the barracks were not built to withstand that kind of pressure ' ; cause the windows were not tight. And so the room would be clogged with dust, and you' ; d have to wet towels and whirl it around in the room to try to stop the dust from covering the whole room. And then the cleanup after that was really very difficult. But I being the youngest was able to just watch them do the work, so it wasn' ; t so bad. But yeah, the camp was beautiful, it had things that I think made life fun for the youngster, for myself. With just that in the winter it was very cold, it could be very cold, very... And then in the summer it could be very hot, extremely hot-- Anna Takada: How long was your family there? James Shikami: Huh? Anna Takada: How long was your family there? James Shikami: Our family was there, let' ; s see, it would be... Probably a little over three years. So I was 10 and I, I' ; d left just going on to 13, I guess it was, yeah, so... Anna Takada: And where did you go from camp? James Shikami: From camp, we went to Chicago because my three sisters that were in Cincinnati with their husbands were at the 442nd and one was killed rescuing the Texas lost batallion. That same night, Paul was killed. Sada ended up with shrapnel all over his body. Karl had been shot, wounded in the arm and shoulder. And they... Just all at the same time frame. And it was something that I' ; ll always remember because my mother in camp, one early morning, she was sitting up on her bed and she was crying and praying, and I got up out of bed and I went to her and I said, you know, " ; What' ; s happening? What' ; s wrong?" ; And she told me that the, the war in France, Mabel' ; s husband was killed. And Sada and Karl were injured. She had seen it visually in her, in her mind. And it was about a month later that she received information from Mabel, what had happened. And it was similar to what she had envisioned. And so those three, Mabel, Ruth, and Florence, they came to Chicago after that. And my other sister, Helen, and her husband Mike also had left and came to Chicago. And my brother Reggie left and came to Chicago, but then he beca-- he was drafted, so he had to go in the Army, to eventually to MIS training. But the five of them then in Chicago, and my parents sent them funds, and they purchased a three-story building on 3933 Ellis, in Chicago. And so they all lived there, Helen, Mabel, Florence, Ruth. And at that time, Mabel had a ch-child, Ruth had a child, and Florence had a child, so they were all three with children. And then we came. And so it became quite a household, everybody there. And then Reggie would come back on furlough, and he, he joined us too. So we had a big group at 3933. And I went to Oakenwald School there in Chicago, and I was there for one year. And my father, who was always a leader, was never good with his hands. When he came, when they, we came out, he went to a glass factory of all places, to work. And he ended up breaking more glass than was necessary and so he was fired. And my mother says, you know, " ; This is never going to work ' ; cause everything you' ; re going to be looking for, you' ; re going to have to do something with your hands, just labor work." ; So she had a friend who was working as a domestic in Lake Forest, and she said you know, she heard that this lady in Lake Forest was looking for a, a cook and a butler, so, would they be interested? So my mother said, " ; That might be the best thing." ; So they went and they talked to Mrs. Ferris and she had this huge estate, big house. She had another house for her gardener, and they also had a, a sheep area, for sheep, and they had a huge garden, fruit, vegetable garden, and, and then fruit trees, everything, it' ; s a big estate. And so they talked and she was very nice, and she said, yes, she would love to have them. So it was my parents and myself went to Lake Forest. And my mother learned she was not a real good cook, but she learned in, in camp, because she was business, she was busy with business, et cetera, and the nursery. And the daughters all cooked each day except on Sunday, my mother then did the cooking. But they had to do, do it. So we knew exactly what the meals were going to be based upon the talents of the sisters, so. But anyway, she quickly learned, I guess, she, the meals she created weren' ; t very good. Mrs. Ferris had a second husband, her first husband passed away. And the second husband was a professor at University of Chicago, theology. And Mrs. Ferris, her wealth came from her first husband who had huge farms and cattle, I think it was in, I think it was in Nebraska, and in Kansas, a number of states, he had large properties. And he had, he was one of the dominant shareholders of... What was that cereal company? Not... It might have been the Nabisco, part of that group. Anyway, he, he was very wealthy. When he passed away. Of course, the wealth went to her. And then eventually she married Doctor, Dr. Ferris. And he, he was kind, but he had a little bit of his own prejudices. But anyway, they, they went there. And then since I had to go to high school then, fresh-- freshman at Lake Forest High School. We were there in early July, and I said, you know, " ; If I' ; m going to go to the high school, if I go in without knowing anyone, it' ; s going to be really difficult." ; So I said, you know, " ; I think I' ; ll go and see if I can join the freshman football team." ; They have their pre-practice in late July, they have physicals, et cetera. So I went there and I said I wanted to play football for the freshman team. And so I went through the physicals and I had a, a situation where looking at the other players that were there, they were quite tall and big. And I was at that time, probably a little over five feet and about maybe 110 pounds. And so the principal of the school heard about it from the coach that this little kid is going to try to play football. So he visited, and talked to my parents and said, " ; The coach feels that your son might get hurt playing this game right now because he' ; s very small compared to the others." ; And so he said, " ; I would advise that he should not come up." ; Well, I decided no, I was going to go anyway. So, I went to practice and it surprised everyone that during the first initiation of how to tackle, I went in there and I really smacked the person. Because in camp you know, I played football, I had my own, my own club, Blue Angels, and we had to play football against another, the only other club in camp, and it was a rivalry. And so we always had to play against each other, and it would always end up with fights, but we learned how to hit each other and without any shoulder pads or anything, we just had a, our little cap and that was it. So when he went to this practice that I could hit, the coach said, " ; Where in the world did you learn that?" ; And I says, " ; I learned it when I was little, younger than, you know..." ; And so they were really shocked. So I ended up on the first team with the freshman. And then I went all the way through as first string, all the way through varsity and graduated with that. So, I made friends, and that was the important thing. So when school started, I already had a base. And it, it went through that way all the way through school. And it was interesting in that we, in the varsity, we would have parties at the beach and we would have beer on the side. And we would have parties where the parents would invite the team players and we' ; d have a good time there. But when the parents had parties where it was going to be boys and girls, I would not be invited. Since it was just after the war, I guess there was that feeling that they didn' ; t want the association of a Japanese and an American woman. So I would never be invited to those, but I' ; d be invited if it were all boys. And-- Anna Takada: So they were not many Japanese Americans in the Lake Forest? James Shikami: I was the only one, I was the only one there. And so the student body accepted me, just that parental influence wasn' ; t that way. And so I was the boys club president. I, I was also one of the valedictorian speakers at the graduation, there were three of us that were speaking at that time. They had a, a, a vote on the most popular at graduation, they put it all in the yearbook. And I was the most popular, the most congenial, all that kind of stuff. And, but I still, even at the senior prom, I was on the court, but I couldn' ; t go because I couldn' ; t find a date. So it' ; s one of those situations. So I would go on dates, come into Chicago and I would-- Anna Takada: Did you come into Chicago often? James Shikami: Yeah, for dating purposes, and-- Anna Takada: With other Japanese Americans? James Shikami: Japanese Americans, right. Yeah. Anna Takada: So where w-- what would you do when you would come into the city or where would you go? James Shikami: Well-- Anna Takada: Were you on the South Side near your sisters? James Shikami: No, at that time, let' ; s see, we, we had, they had moved from 3933, and the whole group that was left had bought a home at, I think it was 59th and Dorchester, not far away from the University of Chicago and the midway point there. And so they bought a home to house everybody again. And so I would go there and from there I would find ways to get to different places with, with the girl that I wanted to go out with. And I, well, my varsity year at high school, before that, I would ride, ride bicycle there. And at Lake, at, at Lake Forest, since my parents were working for a family, and that family, they would go from... That was late December to early April, they would be in, that would be... In Florida, and I' ; m not sure if it was St. Petersburg or someplace down there. And they would spend the whole time there, my parents were there with them. So I was alone in this big house. And my parents as well, you know they, she always canned corn and she canned beans and she had canned different things, tomatoes. And then they had a barrel, a big barrel down in the basement. And they had eggs, from the, from, they had chickens, so they had eggs. And it was some kind of water that looked blue, there was some kind of chemical, kept the eggs okay, fresh. So I had all of those things, so I would cook myself. And I learned how to cook and learned how to make chicken and all of those things, I just trial and error. And I went and took my bicycle, went into town, and I worked three nights at a antique store in the evening. And I would package goods that could be shipped out the next day. So I' ; d spend about three hours doing that, making some extra money. So, but I, I think I' ; d learned a lot of independence when I, when that happened, when I could be on my own. And I had, and my parents, my varsity year had bought me a car, so I had a Plymouth, and so I could-- Anna Takada: This was your freshman year? James Shikami: In my varsity, when I was a varsity, my senior year, yeah. They got me a car. And up until that time I was riding a bicycle all over, but... Anna Takada: And what did you do after high school graduation? James Shikami: After high school, I went to Lake Forest College in, in town. And it was interesting there that I lived off campus, lived at home the first year. And then I realized that the, in, in, at the college, the placement bureau, that was the bureau that helped students to get jobs while they' ; re going to school, and also helped senior students try to get jobs after they graduate, upon their graduation. That, that was handled by a senior... Things are escaping me, but a senior person at the college, administrator. And I says, " ; You know, that' ; s strange because that you shouldn' ; t be using a senior person, an administrator for that." ; It was really the dean of students, that' ; s what I was thinking, that dean of students. That you shouldn' ; t be doing, really, that should be something, a job for someone who wants to be in business, going to school can help and learn and, and do. The only thing that would be difficult would be to contact businesses for graduating seniors, but other than that, the finding jobs for people that, that are going to school could be a person in school. And so at the end of my freshman year, I approached the president of the college and I told them that I really felt it would be nice if someone that were, was interested in business, that they learned by taking over that position-- Anna Takada: Is that what you did? James Shikami: And also that person certainly could learn how to deal with corporations and other, and businesses, and getting jobs for students. And so he said yeah, he says, " ; You know, that sounds like a good idea. Do you know who, who that could be, because you know people at, at the college?" ; And I said, " ; Well, I think it' ; s me." ; And so he says, " ; Okay, you' ; re it." ; So I took over and I became part of the, of the administration. So they gave me room and board and food and everything was, was given to me. So I lived on campus, I had a nice room on campus. I could go to meetings of, of these staff if I wanted to. And I did go to one or two, I think just as a outside person. So it was, it was fun. But as I found jobs and, and they assigned a regular secretary for me. And then at the end of the first year, that would be the beginning of my next term, was junior, then from sophomore to junior, I then had my own secretary from a person attending college. And then I built a staff of four more. And so we did find jobs for people while they' ; re going to school. And then I tried to get people from industry to come in, and it was difficult. Because at Lake Forest College, you' ; re a Liberal Arts College, there are only two or three people in science graduating in biology, science. And so I decided that, you know, that' ; s going to be too difficult for a little school like Lake Forest with only 1200 students, I had to get more, other colleges interested, maybe we can join. So I visited five other colleges, the dean of students at each school, and eventually I got three of them to join. And we had our first contact day at Lake Forest College. And I had resumes from all of them beforehand so I could contact industry and say I have so many that are interested, I have science background and math background, et cetera. And so I got a pretty good response from industry that they would send their representative to that contact day. And so I lined up secretaries for each one. And had each of their resumes ready for the interviewer. And so everything went well. And then at the end of the day, I had a big dinner for everyone and we talked about how everything went, and we got comments from industry representatives as well, and so that we could better do the job that following year. So the following year, my senior year, we had it again. And-- Anna Takada: Sounds like you made quite, quite an impression or important change in that... James Shikami: Yes, it was published in the journal, placement bureau journal. And I, in my, in the senior year I wanted to get a job as a salesman because that was my forte, convincing people. And so I set up three interviews and each interviewer, interview person, interviewer, said that there wouldn' ; t be any openings in the sales area. And they really felt that I should further my abilities in administration that I should go to Michigan or Ohio State, they have some good programs and, and programs that would help you in, in becoming a administrator within the college. And I said, " ; No, I want to be a salesman." ; But they wouldn' ; t accept me then because a salesman would expose a Japanese American into their activities. So even though I told them you know, I created all of this and helped build this whole thing, that means I must be able to sell and communicate an idea. They wouldn' ; t accept it. So I then decided I really wanted to get into retail marketing. I wanted to develop products that I could take into market. So I went, I, I got a scholarship to University of Pittsburgh, the graduate school in business. And they had a one-year program that was retail marketing, and so I got that, I went there. And learned how to set up buying plans and marketing plans, et cetera. And learned a lot from that session. I was offered two jobs while there from Horne department store. And the other one was, I think it was, trying to think of the other one was Stauffers, or it was another, the one in two department stores in Pittsburgh. And I decided that I might take one. And then that' ; s when Carson Pirie Scott representative came and said, " ; We have this program for executive training that you could become a buyer in two, two or three years." ; And so I said, " ; Well, that sounds pretty good." ; I get back to Chicago. I says, " ; Okay." ; And that' ; s when I met my wife, of course. But their program was not really set up correctly. And so the buyers themselves didn' ; t know what they were supposed to do in this program. And I found that out quickly and I said, " ; Oh, no, they just wanted a, a oriental face within their executive program to show that you know, they' ; re diversified." ; Anna Takada: Lois had, had mentioned some of that as well. James Shikami: So it didn' ; t work out for me at all. Anna Takada: And I' ; m so sorry, we' ; re actually coming up to time-- James Shikami: Sure, good. Anna Takada: But I, I wanted to prompt you with the same question that I asked Lois about. You know, if you have any, any hopes in the legacies that you leave with your children, your grandchildren? I know you heard me ask that question. James Shikami: Mmm yeah, yeah. No I, well, I think the legacy would be something that I' ; ve learned in my period of life. And, and that is even with the 9/11 situation, that all of the hatred against the Muslims that came through after the attack in New York, I became involved with the Muslims in Chicago, visited and talked with them. In fact, was on Channel Five at a Muslim church and talked about why I' ; m there. I also visited the Assyrian Church in Chicago, off of Lawrence. When their church was attacked with a fire bomb for the roof. And they' ; re not even Muslim, but they were, someone had thought Assyrian meant they were Muslim. So I went there and I asked the pastor if I could speak to the congregation, which I did. I went to the sheikh of a religious church on Devon, because one of their members, because they wore their hat, covered hat was attacked. So I went there and talked to them as well. So I became involved with them. And I want to really... My legacy for the children is that you know, you don' ; t judge people by what others people say, you judge them by what you believe, and how you react, and how they react to you. That you should really love, love is the main thing in life, and compassion and humility. If you carry those elements, I think you as a human being will do well. And I, I think my children understand my feelings in that regard. So that' ; s what I' ; m hoping. Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much for coming in and, and sharing today. James Shikami: Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ShikamiJames20171027.xml ShikamiJames20171027.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me
Sort Priority
7500
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Shikami, James (10/25/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
James Shikami, a nisei born and raised in Southern California, paints a detailed picture of his family's life before World War II. He recounts his father's entrepreneurial successes and failures and his own busy childhood attending Japanese language school and practicing kendo. With great clarity, he describes the family's preparation for and arrival at Manzanar, where his father served as a block manager and a respected member of the camp council. James recalls both the natural beauty and the terrible dust and wind, acknowledging that as the youngest child, he was spared the worst of the hardship. Arriving in Chicago after their release, James and his parents first joined his sisters and their children on the South Side before eventually moving to Lake Forest to work for a wealthy family. He descibes high school experiences that included athletic and academic success and social acceptance with certain limitations, and his frequent visits to Chicago to date Japanese American girls. He also discusses his experiences attending Lake Forest College and the University of Pennsylvania, working at Carson Pirie Scott, and reaching out to other identity groups in Chicago to express solidarity in the wake of 9/11 and rising anti-Muslim sentiment.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-25
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Then They Came for Me
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/afedc9f1a9e0195005d9bfb176979f39.png
d2a93bdcffc51edda696624f5d7a7cb6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sasaki, Fred
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SasakiFred03232021.xml
Interview Keyword
Mixed-race
Heart Mountain
Barry Regent Dry Cleaners
Prison Neighborhood Arts Project
Abolition
Anxiety
Imposter syndrome
Food
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/23/2021 Sasaki, Fred (3/23/2021) 1:18:45 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Mixed-race Heart Mountain Barry Regent Dry Cleaners Prison Neighborhood Arts Project Abolition Anxiety Imposter syndrome Food Sasaki, Fred Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|20(6)|35(2)|46(15)|64(9)|84(6)|93(10)|110(3)|118(11)|128(13)|140(7)|155(7)|175(5)|185(12)|198(4)|206(12)|216(3)|225(5)|235(15)|249(1)|257(1)|268(11)|279(12)|291(3)|300(12)|309(8)|319(2)|332(9)|343(4)|352(14)|365(3)|374(13)|385(1)|402(3)|413(7)|421(12)|431(9)|441(15)|451(7)|461(9)|474(3)|483(5)|493(2)|502(10)|517(7)|533(13)|547(2)|558(12)|569(9)|580(3)|589(5)|599(1)|610(7)|621(3)|632(1)|643(9)|653(1)|665(5)|673(4)|682(7)|693(8)|707(7)|716(10)|727(5)|733(12)|748(9)|758(10)|768(6)|777(1)|786(7)|793(16)|805(4)|813(14)|821(13)|831(11)|845(9)|854(12)|862(11) 0 https://vimeo.com/553132192/abbce96076 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553132192?h=abbce96076" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Fred John Sasaki, a mixed-race sansei/yonsei born and raised in Chicago, discusses the impact his father's family's incarceration at Heart Mountain and his mother's wartime experiences in Poland have shaped his identity. He reflects on the losses and the resilience of both sides of his family, along with the challenges inherent in speaking or writing publicly about a fraught family history. He discusses ways in which he reclaims and celebrates his Japanese heritage and encourages his children to embrace their Cuban/Japanese/Polish American identities. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is March 23rd, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Fred Sasaki. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center, in order to document the experiences of Japanese-Americans in the Chicago area. We' ; ll start with just some background questions for context. Could you please state your full name? Fred Sasaki: My name is Fred John Sasaki. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what' ; s your year of birth? Fred Sasaki: October 1st, 1976. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Fred Sasaki: Chicago, Illinois. St. Joseph' ; s Hospital in Lakeview on Belmont and Sheridan Road. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you. And now we' ; re going to talk a little bit about your family' ; s pre-war experience as, as much as possible, as you know. Fred Sasaki: Mhmm. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know when your family first came to the United States? Fred Sasaki: Dates are very difficult for me, so I can kind of give you like, my understanding. My grandmother was actually born in Los Angeles. And I' ; ve asked my uncle, my Uncle John. My, my named Fred after my father and John after my uncle. I was actually known in my youth as Fred John. And so my, I' ; ve asked him and he doesn' ; t really have a good sense either, but we do know that she was born in Los Angeles. My grandfather was born in Japan, Yamanashi Prefecture. His family and my grandmother' ; s family actually lived beside each other, both named Sasaki. And she, when she married my grandfather, I understand that she lost her citizenship, which she regained subsequent. I' ; m not, I' ; m unclear if she regained her citizenship before or after incarceration, but she always worked in dry cleaning or cleaning clothes. Was very entrepreneurial, very hardworking, diligent, ambitious. And that' ; s about what I know of life prior to incarceration. I' ; m trying to think of any other details but that' ; s, that' ; s about what I know. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know if they lived within a community of other Japanese families? Fred Sasaki: I believe so. You know I, I went to visit LA a few years ago for the first time really. You know, I' ; ve been once maybe as a, as a very small child, but this is the first time I was conscious of my visit and it was amazing. I, I actually did feel, it felt like a homecoming or it felt like I belonged there. It was, it was heartwarming in a way. I actually traveled to where my father had grown up. The home wasn' ; t there and there was really no sense of community. There were just like large either governmental or university buildings. But I don' ; t really have a great sense of what the community was like for them. You know, I feel like I tend to pa-patch together things I' ; ve heard from other people. And I want to say that yes, I think that they lived amongst other Japanese Americans, but I, I' ; m really unclear. Emma Saito Lincoln: Just to clarify, this is your father' ; s mother that you were speaking of? Fred Sasaki: My father' ; s mother. Yeah. My, my and mother is actually an immigrant from Poland. Emma Saito Lincoln: And were any members of your family incarcerated during World War II? Fred Sasaki: Yes. My father, my uncle, my grandparents, my, my paternal grandparents and other relatives too. I have some aunts and other relations that it' ; s very hard for me to keep track of. I get the sort of genealogy really mixed up, but a lot of us. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know where they were incarcerated? Fred Sasaki: Incarcerated at Heart Mountain, Wyoming. And I believe they spent some time... I, this is, I always get confused if it was Manzanar or Topaz, but there, there was, there was one or two stops along the way, but Heart Mountain was where they were primarily. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you been able to research that history at all? Are there resources that you' ; ve called on to help with that? Fred Sasaki: A little bit. You know I' ; ve looked, when I went to LA, I visited the Japanese American National Museum and I looked up the records, which I was so comforted and happy to find. And, it was actually a really nice experience that they had one of the barracks reconstructed. I, I don' ; t know if it' ; s on permanent display or if it was just for that one display for that ex-exhibition. But I was really interested to see that because I had heard you know many people describe it but my father described it... And I have a lot of papers and documentation that my father had saved up, books... You know and, and I, so I haven' ; t really done thorough or diligent research, but I' ; ve been sort of poking around, and I, I have intentions to learn more, which is partly why I am here. But most recently, you know so my father died maybe close to eight years now. I recently found a little file folder with his reparations documentation all saved very carefully, but that' ; s, that' ; s about the extent of it. Oh, and also photos. I have some photos from the camps, so I, I have a kind of, like almost incidental knowledge or awareness. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you happen to know approximately how old your father was when he went into camp? Fred Sasaki: Yes. I think he was about four. It' ; s so funny, I actually have it in a little booklet I brought with me but yeah, he was a, a young boy. I think he was there from ages around four to eight, something like that? Maybe slightly older and that my, my uncle might have been closer to that age, but yeah, yeah boyhood. Emma Saito Lincoln: And is this something that your family talked about openly when you were growing up? Fred Sasaki: Not too much. I knew about it, and of course looking back, I think like so many JAs, I, I, I' ; m surprised how little we spoke of it. Or how little we discussed the, the impact of it or just the magnitude of it. ' ; Cause it was something that, that happened or maybe growing up I felt like, " ; Yeah, that happened. But it wasn' ; t really important or it wasn' ; t like a significant part of my father' ; s life or my family' ; s life." ; No. I think it certainly wasn' ; t anything that they presented as being defining of them. And I think I was aware of Reparations when it happened. Particularly because of another person in the family, the sort of, which I, I meant to begin telling you about. We had a, there was a man named Jerry who lived in my grandmother' ; s house. And I loved Jerry so much and I didn' ; t know him very well, but he was a, an old man that lived in my grandmother' ; s basement. And he was not a blood relation, but my family knew him from the camp, was my understanding. And so when he was in, I don' ; t know the, the sort of timeline, but he came to live with them. He had no one else. And he would in the daytime, actually, live at the family store in the cleaners in like a, a spare room. And he was sort of, my father would very lovingly talk about him as the sort of safe keeper of the dry cleaners. And would be there to guard against robbers, stealing what I don' ; t know, dirty clothes. (laughs) But you know, and so during the day, Jerry would sit by the door with his cane and greet people as they come and go. And he was really just a, a wonderful fixture and at night he' ; d you know tuck himself in the back. My father was very anxious always of, of, of theft and robbery like I' ; m sure many business owners. But over time I' ; ve come to wonder, like you know, our family was robbed right? And you know robbed of possessions of property, which were both major obsessions of him throughout his life. Always like you know, wanting property, looking at property, interested in, in you know physical possessions. I guess you know that' ; s also American capitalism and right? Like sort of our common experience, but I wonder how much of that, the anxiety of loss propelled that. But anyways, we' ; d, he' ; d check on the store. We' ; d come late at night, a little kid, he' ; d open the doors and there were always alarms. The alarms on the grandmother' ; s house. And you know, and he' ; d tell me how the chandeliers would, you know if the alarm would activate, the chandelier would, would reach down and grab intruders and I was like amazed. I think I set the alarm off on purpose once to see if it would happen. But anyways, we' ; d go into the store and always the same greeting to Jerry, " ; Douka, Jerry!" ; Which I, I apparently is a sort of, very casual Japanese American greeting that I haven' ; t really heard about since. But, " ; Douka Jerry!" ; Like, oh, we caught another robber on the roof! But then on the weekends, Jerry would stay at my grandmother' ; s house and watch TV in the basement. I was aware of reparations specifically around Jerry. Because when Jerry received his, there were people who sort of came out of the woodwork trying to you know, claim the money on his behalf or suddenly care for him. Emma Saito Lincoln: That' ; s interesting. So people, people claiming to be his family members, you think? Fred Sasaki: That was my understanding. That there were like folks that suddenly appeared that tried to get his money, was the way I understood it. And my, my, my father and, and my uncle and my grandmother all protected him in this way. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know his last name? Fred Sasaki: Not off the top of my head. I would need to like spend some, yeah think about it or ask around. Emma Saito Lincoln: If you would guess at his age, was he the same generation as your grandmother, you think? Fred Sasaki: A little bit older, I would say. Sorry Jerry, I' ; ve, I' ; ve forgotten your last name. Emma Saito Lincoln: So I' ; d like to, to dive a little deeper into what you were saying about loss, and properties. Do you know-- Fred Sasaki: Yeah, one thing I want to say before we do that, I' ; m sorry, is that another side of this story that I think is very complicated, is the way that my mother' ; s side of the family or sort of the larger family understood or discussed or didn' ; t discuss incarceration. And I' ; m reluctant to say it because I love my mother and I know she cares for us and meant no ill in her understanding of the camps. And so I always grew up feeling like maybe she thought it was justified, or that it was understandable, or that it was for good reason, sort of like the way that people speak about stop and frisk, you know? " ; Oh, it' ; s not for no reason." ; And, I think that was very limiting to the conversation too. Especially because, you know, my mother being an immigrant, my father having been an incarcerated Japanese American, the, the drive to assimilate will of course say, " ; Yeah. You know, hey, you know, you guys did the best you could do, right? Like we' ; re here for you. You know, god bless America." ; Which was very much my father' ; s attitude. And he became very sort of conservative Republican, you know? Loved Ronald Reagan so much, like idolized him really, you know Bush, too. And I feel fairly sure that he would' ; ve absolutely loved Donald Trump. And it breaks my heart to say that but I, I, I believe so. But again, you, we' ; re pivoting into property and loss. Emma Saito Lincoln: But before we do that, I am wondering if you could speak a little bit more about your mother' ; s side, the Polish side of your family. And if she spent the war as a child in Poland, was that ever discussed, her own family' ; s wartime experience? Fred Sasaki: Yes. Thank you. She, she did. And it, that, I think, influenced her feeling and thinking dramatically. She was one year old when the war broke out in Poland. And she famously spent the first year of her life sleeping in a suitcase, like literally that was her crib. And she was herself, forcibly removed from her home. They were living in an area I, in Silesia. Again, I' ; m, I' ; m hazy on the details. But she was shipped out in the, the dark of night to Bitum, by Russian soldiers who patrolled their lives, lived above them. She was denied education. There was a time in her life where it was illegal for Poles to receive an education. And it' ; s funny how retroactively, as I have become you know, an activist in my own right, and you know, I see myself as an abolitionist. And I, I work with people who have been impacted by the criminal legal system and to end prisons. I have reframed my mother' ; s childhood experience to her. I think maybe to also help me, but then to also maybe find a way to unite us that I' ; ve, I' ; ve called her... That, that she, I' ; m saying that she was a re-- a war resistor. That she was, you know defying the power because her mother found tutors for her, and continued her education under, right? Fear of imprisonment. Who knows? Maybe death? I don' ; t really know but right? Like she, they weren' ; t supposed to be doing that. So I like to say that it was a different word that I was using that was more, more powerful, but I, I like to say that she was part of the Polish resistance, because she was! And so I think that she feels a lot of bitterness. And forgive me for saying so to my mother, because her pain and her plight is so underrepresented, overlooked, not considered at all. You know, she came to America and she was a dumb Polack, you know? And so even then, that hierarchy of like white supremacy, that, that like, it was very warped in my own family. Because it, I always felt like the hierarchy was my Japanese American family, in part because that' ; s how my mother met my father. She was my grandmother' ; s cleaning lady. And so it' ; s a very romantic, like classic Chicago story. Japanese American, dry cleaning family, all very close to home. My grandmother, my father lived with my grandmother. My uncle lived across the street. The store was down the road, all within this like quarter city block. And my grand-- my, my mother was moonlighting ' ; cause she had come to America as a chamber maid for Mrs. Pirie, from Carson Pirie Scott, the, you know the retailer. Yeah, actually my, my mother' ; s first date with my father, she borrowed a fur from Mrs. Pirie. Or actually Mrs. Pirie lent her the fur to make a good impression on her first date. And so yeah, that, that dynamic, that hierarchy was, was really pronounced for me. Like I really felt that and... So yes, to my mother, I do feel like you know, her experience has been really overlooked and sort of repressed within her. Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: So to pivot again to this notion of property and, and loss, and you were describing your father' ; s behavioral patterns when you were a child. Do you know if your family owned property prior to the war that was lost as a result? There are many ways that families lost things right at that time, but was there, was there real property or land or a building? Fred Sasaki: I' ; m not sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: And, as you were growing up, did you feel that the willingness to talk or not talk about the experience was the same with your grandmother as it was with your father and your uncle or was there a generational difference? Fred Sasaki: I think you know, I didn' ; t have the opportunity or I didn' ; t s-speak with my grandmother in this way. I think a lot because of age, maybe the family dynamic... You know I, I feel like my father and my uncle were very open to speaking. My uncle even more so, who I think has, has really intellectualized things, and has spent a, a good time reckoning with everything that happened. Whereas, I think my father was more happy to go along and make the best of things and to see everything in a, in a positive light. But he also, I don' ; t think that they had much to say, because I remember asking many times and my father would remember it. And it' ; s funny because you want, right like, this is, as a Japanese American, like this, this is our major trauma, and it' ; s like it' ; s-- And I would love to talk a little bit about like sort of coming into the realization of the horror of it or to sort of embody the anger of it. Which I didn' ; t even think you could be angr-- angry about it until a certain point in time but you know he always talked about it fondly, you know, as a good time. That he had fun in camp. That he played with his friends and he played kick the can, he said or whatever. And you know, now, in part of my research, I' ; m actually very fascinated with basketball in the camps. Which I, and I see these beautiful photos and understand how like the sport flourished in camp. Right? Because it, it very much reflected the Japanese ideal of, of family and camaraderie and teamwork. And I, I' ; ve read about people who' ; d speak about basketball as a, as a sort of a, a mourning space, a place for collective mourning. Which I find so fascinating. Also understanding that I guess, women' ; s basketball or girls' ; basketball proliferated in the camp. Right? Because so, the patriarchy was abolished and there was all this room and freedom for women and girls to compete and to be physical. And apparently, this had a, like a, such a lasting impact on Japanese American basketball, particularly on the West Coast and at the collegiate and professional levels, so I' ; m very fascinated with that. But yes, so my father remembers it as a, as a happy time. But of course, recognizing that they lived in horse stalls and there was no privacy and pain, more painful for his parents. But yeah, that was kind of the way he, he spoke of it. Emma Saito Lincoln: So when did you start to learn about the, the entire experience, more than just the stories you have heard from your family, when, when did you start looking into it more yourself? Fred Sasaki: So I' ; ve, I' ; ve, I found solidarity with artists and activists and abolitionists. I' ; ve... And actually this interview has helped clarify that for me. Like, where did this begin to take shape in my, my heart, in my mind, and in my now lived experience? Forgive if I' ; m getting a little emotional, I didn' ; t expect it. I mean, I did expect it, but... So, a friend of mine, Sarah Dodson, publishes this mag-- literary magazine called Make Magazine, and they were playing an international issue. And I sort of understood, well you know I, my family' ; s international like, and sort of giving myself that permission. And I understand that my whole childhood, that my parents were really focused on making me into a white, American boy. That was like, number one and discouraging affiliation with any kind of group, particularly like Asian groups. I was sort of warned against it. You know, my father, growing up, my father would, you know no one asked him, would openly talk about how he didn' ; t find Asian women attractive or Japanese women attractive. You know, and I didn' ; t understand what was happening there you know? But now I see, like oh my-- anything to get away from that, you know? Even though he was always, I felt like the, the Japanese American community was always dear to him and always important. And he always made an effort to expose me to that and to be part of the Japanese American picnics, and to, to you know, have ties to the Japanese American Service Committee, you know, particularly through food and culture you know? But it was always at this American remove. And so um, I' ; m sorry I' ; m not very linear here, but I' ; ll tell you that my, one of my father' ; s last wishes was to have his ashes scattered in Japan, in Epcot Center, Disney World. So not in Japan itself, but in Disney World. And I was with my son. So we, he took us on this magical trip to Disney World, me and my, my son. I have three children, all mixed, mixed Cuban, Japanese, Polish. And, his priorities at Disney World, visit China, see the panoramic movie, and to go to Japan. Where we will have chicken teriyaki and Sapporo beer in the courtyard and then visit the , the Japanese shop, always number one favorite thing. And we' ; re sitting there having our Sapporo and chicken teriyaki, reclining amongst you know the, the tree by the bridge. And he says to me, you know, " ; Fred John, when I die, I want you to come here and spread my ashes." ; You know and at first I was like, " ; Oh my God. What? Like this is Disney World. This is like an artificial amusement park. How could you ask that of me?" ; And I was you know, an unkind, ungrateful child. And you know, mind you, I was a, a grown adult, but when he did die, I made sure to get a little urn that I could wear on a necklace. And we scheduled a trip for my entire family to go back to Disney World, and went to Japan to, to scatter his ashes. And I' ; m so grateful that he did because it was such a beautiful occasion for my family. And really true to his experience or ideal of Japanese Americanness, you know? Backed by, by the American dollar and Disney bucks. So I think I' ; ve lost the, the train of, of our, of our question but-- Emma Saito Lincoln: No. That was a, a wonderful story that you shared. Thank you. Fred Sasaki: Oh yes, finding solidarity with artists. So she asked for this international, for a copy for the international issue. And I thought, " ; Well you know, I would really love to write about my family and to look at the incarceration." ; Because I had recently found like the store of photos that my father had kept. And there were like these, most of them were portraits of my grandmother that he had taken in sort of all her glamour. Because throughout her American experience, she had sort of undergone this, this fabulous sort of American transformation. She had gone from being Asako Sasaki to Mona Sasaki. And had really kinda patterned herself in the likeness of, of Elizabeth Taylor and Liberace and American grandeur, you know? Wigs and eyelashes and jewelry. And so I had, was absolutely captivated by these photos, and I love them so much and I showed them to everyone who came over to my house. I' ; m like, " ; Look at my family photos. Aren' ; t they amazing? They' ; re so beautiful." ; And people like really seemed to be sort of stunned by them. I mean they were, they' ; re quite bizarre and there were the photos from the camp. So I thought, well, why don' ; t I, why don' ; t I try to write about the incarceration experience or what I knew or what I saw connected to it through my family experience? And I did it, and I put so much of myself into it and I was very proud of it. And it published and, you know it received praise that I thought was very comforting but also upsetting in certain ways. Like I remember the, the, the piece came out and someone had reviewed it on some literary website. And it was, it was a white male reviewer who was sort of applauding my restraint or sort of the lack of emotion or weepiness. He didn' ; t use ' ; weepiness' ; . He used a word that I' ; m not remembering that is like, was even more infuriating than the ones I' ; ve used. But I thought, " ; Huh." ; I was like, " ; He' ; s glad that, that I sanitized this experience for him, and that I wasn' ; t angry or sad." ; And that made me furious! (laughs) And, you know I received you know monetary awards from the Illinois Arts Council, which, you know I have to say was so important to me. Because I was like, " ; Wow, like you know they, they feel this is important and they' ; re recognizing this." ; And I felt so supported and happy, and the work has you know, subsequently been you know, used in classrooms and anthologized. But it also surfaced a lot of family hurt, which I can talk about in a little bit too. But, so what, what I mean to say is that I found support for this investigation or for this work through the artist community. And later too in some other imagery that I' ; ll share with you, you know, work that' ; s been included in exhibitions, or people want to like talk about and want to see, and want to like be part of like this sort of reframing or, or like look back at, at America. And I had a, like the watershed moment for me was I went to do something totally disconnected at Vocalo, at the radio station at WBEZ. And I was sitting with a, a sound artist, Jesse Seay, who' ; s a Japanese American sound artist. And I either told her about this work or she had seen it, I' ; m not sure. And she said, " ; Yeah, that' ; s, that' ; s outrageous. That' ; s infuriating. That' ; s horrible." ; Like you know, I don' ; t know exactly what she said but she was so angry and outraged. And I was like surprised because I had never seen anyone speak about it in those terms. It was always something like, " ; Oh, I understood this happened. You know, it' ; s not that bad. You know we' ; ve moved forward. You know, I' ; m a good American. I' ; ve proved you know, my worth." ; And I was like so confused and excited and like, " ; Wow, right!" ; Like, I can be angry about this. Like, I' ; m entitled to feel like outraged and upset and hurt and I could tell somebody about that. And so from there I was like, I had a, like a new perspective or, or frame for it, which I think has been, been very helpful. Particularly because now in those same communities, we are able to, to gather strength and mobilize to help other people, and to fight to end all incarceration and detention of immigrants. And you know that' ; s why the, the growing movements with Tsuru For Solidarity I feel like is so beautiful and so impactful. Even in Chicago, the Nikkei Uprising and seeing young people like adopt these abolitionist principles and sort of look at our shared history and how it' ; s being repeated. And you know, I have to say, in places like the Japanese American Service Committee is, these are places where I see it all come together because my lives are so fractured in certain ways. There' ; s the artistic life, there' ; s the family life and then there' ; s a professional life you know and they mingle sometimes. But here they like, you' ; ll be at an event and you' ; ll see everybody all together, and it' ; s all fitting in, in this like really important way, practical ways too. So yeah, I think, I think I answered that question. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you. you' ; ve brought with you, some things to share. Fred Sasaki: Yes, I did. Emma Saito Lincoln: Seeing that publication about-- Fred Sasaki: Yes. And so this is where I can talk about... So my incarceration experience is, is sort of fraught with the aftermath or the, the family hurt that, like I said, was sort of activated or raised through this. And so, this is my grandma Mona, and this is her in her home. And these are the sort of portraits that my father would take. You know, she loved trying on her dresses and seeing how she looked standing or sitting. And she also loved to pose behind objects and would, would touch them or sort of pose with them very sweetly. I still have this phone, which my children sometimes play with. But she' ; s on the cover because the cover art for the issue fell through and they were scrambling. They didn' ; t know what to do. And I' ; m friends with the, the publisher editor and I was like, " ; Hey, you know, I, I' ; ve got all these other photos, maybe you want to check it out." ; And they came over and you know they, they put it in a puzzle piece. They' ; re like, " ; We' ; re going to go for it." ; And they did and I' ; m glad they did. But these are the photos from the camps of my, my father and my uncle, my grandma and my grand-- my grandmother and my grandfather and some other folks. And then, so I think I would write this very differently now and I' ; d probably change a lot of things in here, but this publication basically upset everybody in my family. My father became very nervous and felt it was very dangerous or you know, that I shouldn' ; t really be doing it, but he was always encouraging no matter what and loving always. My mother was upset about it for very similar reasons. " ; We shouldn' ; t speak about family really to other people, or no need to like dru-- drum up you know dirty laundry" ; or laundry period. But then, my Japanese side of the family, th-this is where the soreness I think was, was really felt acutely. That I had, I had done something against the family? I feel like, or that I had misrepresented or maybe I had been exploitative? They, this is not the way it was put to me, but I' ; m wondering because that' ; s my own fear. Right? Like I, yes, I' ; m entitled to my anger or my experience, but like, c-- like w-what does it mean to appropriate Japanese culture as like, right a hapa, an American, biracial person? And I think that when I presented this work externally, there was also a lot of anxiety or shame. And I remember the first time I, I read it at like, it was some like you know apartment house, apartment poetry reading. And there were all of these you know, people who I didn' ; t know, and who I was very intimidated by because they were artists like and they were poets and they were like legit. And here I presented my work and I thought, " ; Oh my God, like I' ; m coming here with like pictures, like to, like illustrations from my story because I wasn' ; t strong enough." ; You know, and I felt embarrassed that I was like leveraging or using my family history in a way that, I don' ; t know, I was worried that it was, I was using it to bolster my own like identity or experience. You know sort of also like, like the feelings of the, of an imposter syndrome too. Like just totally fronting because this isn' ; t my real lived ex-- it, it isn' ; t like my lived experience. Although I do feel like right, it' ; s in my DNA, and it is part of my history and has clearly had an impact and continues to. But I didn' ; t of course see it at that way at that time. But I remember the shame I felt presenting it and the insecurity, which, you know, I think could be true if I had written about rainbows. But, I remember it feeling specifically about race and about my race in the room. Which I had no real kind of concept of ' ; cause it was still really developing, and still is. Or times when I you know, read it before you know, an entirely kind of white, affluent audience. And then you know this very kind, caring, you know, white woman coming up to me afterwards and sort of, like apologizing to me after I read the work. And I remember thinking, " ; Oh, like you know, this is so strange." ; Like who exactly is she speaking to? Because I didn' ; t feel like it was really me being addressed or that it wasn' ; t really about me. Although you know, I know that it just, it felt like I was caught up in some sort of bizarre performance, you know? And maybe that' ; s you know, unkind of me or-- I know it' ; s very complicated and it' ; s not saying it' ; s one thing or another, but I remember those experiences being sort of upsetting in that way. And I guess I just have to trust that. Like it didn' ; t feel right. But yeah, so my, my relatives, and again, like I feel very sensitive about this because this is such sensitive things. I don' ; t want to embarrass or hurt anyone by, by saying these details. But I think it' ; s very important to know that like my own relatives, someone whom I love, like they wanted to sue me because I had written like-- This is like a-- you know, Sarah, it' ; s a wonderful journal. But I mean it' ; s like a, a little literary publication right? It doesn' ; t matter. Nobody cares, right? But it was, it was enough to want to forcibly stop it and to punish, right? So I' ; m also of course very proud right, that I elicited that, but not really, you know? I think it' ; s just, it' ; s an important to, important part of the story. Emma Saito Lincoln: How did you, how did you move past that with your family, assuming that you did? How did you repair those relationships? Fred Sasaki: Well, we talked more, and I think that because there, there' ; s so much estrangement in my family. And we, and I also wonder if that had, is, was a product of incarceration or the sort of, how, the closeness that they had to maintain to survive, and that maybe it, it was like, it got to be too much, I guess like many families, right? This isn' ; t like... But at, at one point, the, the family kind of broke apart and lost contact, and so there' ; s very little trust or understanding. And so I think that this particular instance, we got over it through just getting to know each other more. And I think when she understood like what my deal is, she was like, " ; Okay, I get it. Like you, you weren' ; t trying to mess us up or you know, degrade or my, my grandmother." ; Yeah so I think just... And I know I, that there should be more talking and you know, there, there is still time to repair the family but is there? I don' ; t know. But that' ; s what I would say, just through more, more talking and greater understanding. Emma Saito Lincoln: So if you don' ; t mind, I' ; d like to pick up the, the thread again of family movement. So we have your pre-war, your grandmother and grandfather on the West Coast, and then during the war at Heart Mountain. And, how did they come to be in Chicago, do you know? Fred Sasaki: So, with inaccuracies, so with a grain salt, my understanding is that somehow my grandfather and maybe grandmother too, secured work release from the camps. And they worked at I think, laundries or some kind of cleaning f-facilities nearby and would come and go then ' ; cause they were working in the business bef-- in L.A. And I believe my grandma had a shop in L.A. which was like significant right? Like Japanese woman business owner in L.A. pre-second World War? And actually one of my other relatives, and I' ; m forgetting now who he is. Akira was his name. He was, I think, one of the first or the first Japanese American bank owner in that area. I have a wonderful photo of him with his head bandaged. They were attacked by the lead pipe gang. And he was clobbered and eventually he had a metal plate put in his head and eventually died from those injuries. So they' ; re very industrious like hardworking people. But yeah, so after the camp, there was like some work release. And eventually they made their way to Reno where I believe they, there was, they were working in laundry there as well. And I think, and this is, this was a new detail I found by, I recently found my father' ; s high school, one of his school books. Which I really need to bring to you because it actually speaks a little bit about his, his pre post-war experience because it was like a, like a children' ; s narrative. You know like, " ; My life is..." ; Et cetera. But there was a detail in there, which I never knew that there was some movement between Topaz-- I mean sorry, Reno and Chicago. I think they were in Reno, went to Chicago, came back to Reno and then back to Chicago, something like this. And I don' ; t know why, but eventually ended up in, in Chicago, and made their way building this wonderful dry cleaner and life for us in Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you get the sense that they knew people in Chicago before they came here? Fred Sasaki: Yes, yes. Because I think that there were a lot of folks. I mean, there were relatives. And I always did get the sense, you know walking around, what I think we' ; re now retroactively called, calling Japantown like Lakeview, Lincoln Park, right? He you know, he knew so many people and so many Japanese American business owners, and we' ; d stop in and visit them and patronize them as much as possible. And I, I really didn' ; t appreciate that or see what he was doing at that time. So yeah, I did feel, I do feel like they came here with community or... Yeah. I don' ; t know specifically but that' ; s my sense. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then, well let' ; s talk about the family business a little bit. Fred Sasaki: Sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: What was the name of the business? Fred Sasaki: Barry Regent Dry Cleaners. Oh and, you know what? I didn' ; t intend to bring this, but I actually have a little printout. I, I have a friend in Chicago who, this was-- I attended one of, a reading for his book of poems, which was about growing up as a Mexican American in, in Berwyn and the sort of, the presence of the Latin Kings in his life and the Crowns. I thought, how interesting, you know, I joined him on stage. My friend, my, my sort of like, very much a brother to me, Jacob Saenz, I was happy that we had these crowns in common. But I think these crowns represent my, my brother, my uncle and my grandmother unless I' ; m making that up. But that' ; s very much, that was like the, the heavenly triad of the, of the cleaners. I was always very proud of the cleaners growing up, and you know, spent time going there and sitting in the back and you know, it was my first job. And, yeah so shall I speak more about the business, or... Emma Saito Lincoln: Well, I' ; m curious to know, well, is it still in the family? Fred Sasaki: It is still in the family. My, my uncle owns the, the cleaners and it' ; s managed by his son-in-law and his daughter. And I think you know that they' ; re holding on through the pandemic. I think it' ; s difficult but they' ; ve maintained. Emma Saito Lincoln: Was there ever any pressure on you to participate in the family business as an adult? Fred Sasaki: You know it' ; s funny. There was, there was pressure to not go into the family business. My, for my father specifically, he, he made it his mission for me to, to live a, the life that he didn' ; t have or that he wished he would' ; ve had. And he always, well first of all, he, he prioritized my education. And did everything he could, my grandmother too, to, to help me through school and to receive the best education that they could possibly provide. And the aim was for me to be successful and to support my family, but to do something I loved and then to enjoy my life. Because both he and my uncle, they were working since childhood, and never had freedom or friendship or evenings or weekends. They were just always working. And when they weren' ; t working, they, they seemed to be with each other. So my father definitely didn' ; t want, did not want me in the business. But then, you know, I think the business didn' ; t want me in the business either for other reasons you know? (laughs) Because there' ; s only so much to go around. Which I was happy about and I, I felt sure that I could, I could live without them. But it' ; s very funny, there was a time where I was wayward in college and I thought, " ; Oh my God, really? What am I going to do? Maybe I should actually go into the business because that, that could, you know there' ; s some security there." ; And I remember I phoned my father, and said, " ; Dad, actually, I think I' ; d like to go into the family business." ; And it was great because he was like, " ; Oh, about that." ; He had like just sold the business, thank goodness, because I, I think I' ; m much happier doing what I do. Emma Saito Lincoln: So you' ; ve mentioned how your father would take you into some of the other Japanese American businesses that were in the same neighborhood. But you also mentioned how you felt you were maybe pushed away from identifying as Asian. And how do you reconcile those two very mixed messages? Fred Sasaki: Oh my God, it feels crazy! You know, I have a couple funny stories. Well one that' ; s, this is not the funny story, but what I wanted to say is that I feel such a sense of belonging at the JASC, at the events, you know, holiday delight, judo, exhibitions, whatever. This feels like a, a family place. Although I remember when I came to a camp reunion here with my father, I remember feeling like such an interloper. Or like maybe I didn' ; t belong or I shouldn' ; t be here, or I don' ; t know what I' ; m talking about or this isn' ; t for me. Maybe that was my own, own anxiety. No one at the place made me feel this way, absolutely not and I was so happy to, to learn what I could. But I' ; ll tell you about, I was at a, a brainstorming meeting with colleagues from the Asian Pacific American Center at the Smithsonian, and, who I do some work with you know professionally and then also personally. And so they' ; re, they' ; re basically like a not-for-profit arm of the Smithsonian devoted to Asian Pacific Americans and specifically art. You know, literature, they do an Asian American literary festival. They do, you know, rotating exhibitions, maybe working toward a, a permanent space within the, the Smithsonian. But we' ; re at this meeting and it' ; s chaired by Lisa Sasaki, who is of no relation, you know? And she asked everyone who identified as you know, Japanese American or Asian American to raise their hand. And bel-- she puts a question and I thought, " ; Oh my God, am I, am I Japanese American?" ; Okay, so I know that I am, and I, I have known this my entire life, but I was in that room at DePaul and I froze! And I looked at my colleagues. So I have a counterpart at the Smithsonian who it' ; s, you know I sort of see him as like a, like a kinda doppelganger, both mixed, you know, both similar roles. And I look over at him. I was like, okay, if Lawrence raises his hand, I' ; m going to raise my hand. So I' ; m like a kid like cheating on this test and I' ; m like looking over and he raises his hand. I' ; m like, oh yeah, of course, like, I' ; m going to raise my hand too. And, I told him this story afterwards. Of course, he laughed and he understood. And he reminded me though, he' ; s like, " ; Fred." ; He' ; s like, " ; I' ; m a professional Asian American." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Right, of course." ; I, but yeah so-- But then also like, there' ; s this feeling about, well, what, what does give you the right or the ownership, the entitlement to that identity or experience? And something that was fraught for me as well is that looking back, I feel like I, I did have quite a lot of that and quite a, a lot of good exposure. But maybe growing up through it, we were so distanced from our culture of origin. You know my Polish culture, I, I know very little of. You know, it was not possible or safe, I think, for me to learn Polish or you know for Japanese to be passed along the lines. Like my father knew some words and could maybe speak a little bit, was, but was illiterate you know, in Japanese. ' ; Cause that, like when are they going to talk, speak to each other? When is that going to be comfortable to openly communicate? And so a lot of the Japanese culture I experienced growing up was through food and in restaurants. And it' ; s like you know, I told you this morning about my Japanese breakfast. It' ; s very important to me and it, it hits right in that special, inner part. But I remember, again, much love and understanding to my, my brother and my mother who would say, " ; Well, you know, you don' ; t become Japanese from eating, going to Japanese restaurants or eating Japanese food. Like that' ; s not how you, how you do it. That' ; s... doesn' ; t make you Japanese." ; And I felt like ashamed or sad by that because I thought it did and I was like, " ; That' ; s all I have." ; And, I also felt very hurt by that because I felt like it was shutting out or denying what I understood as a real part of my Japanese-ness. And now I see, well, of course it does. Like, ho-- Like that' ; s a very, like one of the most important ways that we transfer this knowledge and experience, and embody it like literally and share it with my family. Like when my father would bring my son to the mochi poundings at the, at the JASC. You know, tomorrow I' ; m actually going to be picking up bento boxes, which I' ; m so happy are available and I got it for the whole family, so there' ; s that, that conflict too. And you know, oh we, maybe next time we could talk about like you know the, the differences in growing up you know with this food, and then now you see it like mass-marketed as, as, as sushi burritos. But yeah, so lots of conflict. Lots of always feeling like belonging, but then maybe shame or being incriminated by association and then wanting that distance. And then you know, the resentment for that distant-- distance, which I feel like a lot of Japanese Americans in Chicago have felt from each other. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did you ever feel that your being mixed race ever played into that in terms of your belonging-ness within the Japanese American community? Fred Sasaki: Yes. I mean in all communities. In the, the Japanese community, you know, with my Polish family, with all the white folks I went to school with. And strangely or not so strange, I' ; m sure it' ; s something that' ; s very common. And actually, sorry to address you but I, I know that' ; s something that you, you under-- feel too, is like, I felt kinship with Latinx people. My wife is Cuban and we met each other. And it' ; s funny, we were often mistaken for brother and sister. You know she' ; s... Parents fully Cuban from Cuba, right? And, when I met her family, I was shocked by the, how instantaneous our famil-- like famili-- the, the family became. Like, I was like embraced immediately and I was like, I couldn' ; t believe it. I was, I had found community that I had never had before, right? And it' ; s no, through no fault of my, my family or, it just, it didn' ; t exist here right? And then and for-- because it really wasn' ; t allowed. So, always feeling like an outsider, then finding inclusion in you know, maybe surprising places. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you feel that your relationship with the Japanese American community has changed over the course of your life? Fred Sasaki: So dramatically, profoundly and for the better. And I think it' ; s something particular to the, this political moment and the sort of access to information, and what I, what I hope is a sort of sea change for the, the country and all people. I think... I think, that there feels to be like an awakening amongst Japanese-Americans at large, and a, a drive or striving toward understanding or solidarity. I think, I feel like people are also tired of being alone and right, not seeing other people like us. You know like right, all, all hapas, we could spot each other a mile away, right? Or like, when, when I, when I went back to L.A. and I felt this homecoming, right? I was like, " ; Oh my God, everybody' ; s so beautiful! They look just like..." ; And it didn' ; t matter. Like normally in Chicago you' ; d be like, " ; Oh, like, you' ; re mixed?" ; Like, you know? But there it was like, " ; Why bother asking? It doesn' ; t matter." ; Everybody is like all, all mixed up. But yeah. No, so I felt such a radical change. And again, for me personally, this has occurred through the, through the arts. And also I think like artists and our art communities are demanding justice and reconciliation and openness and ending silence around all of this. So it' ; s like, such fertile ground and I like, I' ; m just so happy to lean into it and like, and to like know my lane, you know? And this is where I can fill things out, where I can share experience and explore, and then finding where that connects with other cultures and communities. So yeah. This is, I' ; m just, it' ; s such a nice time for me personally with regard to being Japanese American. And what I found too, which I thought was so interesting, your, you know, also because of the way that we' ; re working now, being put in con-conversation with Japanese Americans in, in other ends of the world or country, who are doing these projects that you can just easily plug into. Like I interviewed with a, a Japanese American sculptor in Las Vegas who was like researching... Who was doing very similar kind of oral histories and stories. I think working toward an exhibition of work representing the Japanese American experience. And I was so amazed that apparently a lot of people are spontaneously identifying as hapa, and there' ; s this like growing community of hapa people. And how it' ; s like, it' ; s expanding also to include people who aren' ; t necessarily of specifically Japanese American descent, but all mixed people. And he' ; s finding even non-Asians sometimes identifying in this way. And I just find it so fascinating that so many of us are having, spontaneously having this like awakening to identity. Which I think you know, people, I think, are very frustrated by identity politics but like, I love it. Like, I think it' ; s so great. Like you know, the magazine I work for, we just published a cyborg this month. I, I don' ; t, I shouldn' ; t even say it like that, but someone who identifies as a cyborg and I' ; m like, " ; Fantastic. Like, how are all these different ways that we can imagine our humanity? Like, great." ; I was like, " ; Sign me up." ; So yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: I was wondering as you were talking about food and, and Japanese culture in different ways that it' ; s transmitted from one generation to another. Are there other aspects of Japanese culture that you really felt that were absent from your life or that you have wanted or maybe taken steps to reclaim for yourself? Fred Sasaki: Well, the actual cooking. I, you know my mother, my Polish mother would make chicken teriyaki for us, which was like, a very important favorite meal for me. My father didn' ; t cook so much, so you know I, I guess that was missing in certain ways. That, that sort of, the, the home, Japanese homemaking I guess or cooking, home cooking, which we now do in our home you know, and you know have my oke, and I put the, the kombu and the rice. And on New Year' ; s we make chick-- you know katsu, katsudon, and, and we cook it together as a family. And, and it' ; s, you know oh buy the cookbooks and you know, cut out the articles from Nichi Bei Weekly, which I subscribe to, and I' ; ve, I' ; ve now subscribed for several years now. One of the greatest subscriptions I have ever made in my life because I' ; ve learned so much and it' ; s such a wonderful publication, but I cut out the recipes and we try it. My son the other day who' ; s 16 about to be 17 next month, he started cooking. He like, he made some like miso salmon like on his own. I was so proud. I was like, " ; Yes." ; I was like, " ; You' ; re digging into your, your legacy, your, your history." ; And so, but it' ; s, I also feel like a little bit I feel like, " ; Oh, I' ; m pretending or, you know this isn' ; t authentic." ; I' ; m like, " ; I' ; m taking this and you know, I don' ; t really... This isn' ; t real." ; You know? Which is crazy, right, because it is and we' ; re making it real. So that' ; s something that, that' ; s, that' ; s-- you know also, I, I would say maybe I guess a, a, a greater cultural understanding. I didn' ; t learn anything about like incarceration at school. You know, it' ; s not something we ever spoke about in any of my education. I didn' ; t, you know I don' ; t feel like I was really exposed to Japanese artists or you know just even have an understanding, maybe... Yeah, just a wider cultural understanding, I guess. You know, I would never fault my folks for that you know or-- You know, that' ; s not what I mean but I, I guess that' ; s something I... You know it' ; s like when I, I went to school in Boston right? And how many people did I meet who, whose family came over on the Mayflower. Oh my God, thank you for telling me. So I guess something I felt like I was missed was a Mayflower story, which you know, we can' ; t have. That doesn' ; t exist. Maybe I' ; m making up answers for you at this point but... Emma Saito Lincoln: No, this is all wonderful. We are coming up on, on 11:30, so I think maybe we can start wrapping up. Fred Sasaki: Sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: And I was hoping you would speak a little bit about what motivated you to participate in this oral history project. Fred Sasaki: Oh, I just think it' ; s so important, you know? I lo-- You know, aside from loving the Japanese American Service Committee and wanting to support this work. And to recognize its just immense importance to record these stories, and you know seeing the, the everlasting value of them. You know visiting you know, the, the Holocaust Museum, I think in Elmhurst where they recently presented all the oral histories of survivors that they captured there. And you know for, you know seeing how that can live on for people. You know and seeing the ones that, that have been created here too, how important it is and how fast we' ; re losing our people and, and these stories. But also as a, as an exploration and to, to build understanding, because like I don' ; t, I don' ; t know how this is all... I want to better understand how this is impacting me, and how the aspects of my life have been dramatically influenced by incarceration or this experience. Like it was through this call that I first thought maybe I... I don' ; t know, like ' ; cause-- So I work with, right, with prison, with prison populations or you know, do this abolitionist work, which I sort of tripped into through poetry. But it' ; s, I' ; ve now been you know, working, and specifically with the Prison Neighborhood Arts Project, Arts Education project who work out of Stateville. I' ; ve now been doing this work for 10 years and I' ; m wondering how, how does this connect with my family' ; s incarceration experience? Like you know? And I, and I think that there' ; s a lot of value in connecting those points, and understanding maybe this larger idea about you know, putting people in cages right? Like, plus, I, I think it' ; s, I want to be part of building our culture. And want to, yeah, be here for the culture and to help to fill it out and encourage other people to do so. Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then I have a pair of questions for you. One is looking, looking back, is there a question that you either always wanted to ask, or maybe now you wish you could ask of your father or your grandmother or your grandfather about their lives? Fred Sasaki: You know, now I think because of what we are dealing with in this country and through you know my workplace and like many of our workplaces. Like the sort of racial reckonings that were happening and our, our confrontation with, with racism. I would love to know what they think about all this whiteness, you know? Like, I would love to, to have a better understanding of how they experienced that, like honestly. Like if they could' ; ve... ' ; Cause I know in the past they did not speak honestly with me about it, and for good reason. I really would' ; ve... I would really love to know that. That would, that would be very helpful in clarifying, I' ; m not really sure in what way. I think it would help you feel, help me feel less crazy. (laughs) You know, my grandmother who was incarcerated, certain members of my family, the white members of the family, liked to say that she reported never having felt prejudiced against in her life. She was never the victim of racism in her entire life, and yet she had, she was robbed and imprisoned for being alive. And I, I wish we could go back in time and be like, " ; Hold on a second, that' ; s, that' ; s not true." ; Yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: And as a counterpoint to that, is there a message that you would like to send to your children? Fred Sasaki: Yeah, you know and I, I feel like so dedicated to living that message on a daily basis. And it' ; s sort of ridiculous how much we talk about it, maybe every meal, every day. It' ; s always, right? I mean, how can you not? Especially... But the way I see my children, and actually it was the, the birth of my children that brought me back to the, the, to the JASC through my father bringing my son to the mochi poundings. Through the Winter Delights. Through judo through the facility, but also my desire to... For them to learn about their heritage and to feel okay claiming it and owning that. But most importantly, I see my duty as not passing my shame onto them. And to all of like the hangups or holdups or racism or prejudice or biases that live within me. That, to confront them and to eradicate them so they don' ; t harbor them or enact them upon the world. You know, I' ; ll tell you a funny story about my son that is not about Japanese American experience, but it' ; s about this mixed-race identity experience. So we were talking about something and he said something that made me say to him, I was like, " ; Hey." ; I was like, " ; You know you' ; re Hispanic, right?" ; Which is funny. Like people ask me, am I Hispanic? And I' ; ll be like, " ; Sort of." ; And they' ; re just, " ; What are you talking about? Like what do you mean?" ; I was like, " ; Well, people think that I am. My wife is, my children are but I know that I' ; m not." ; Like I don' ; t, it' ; s a dumb joke but my son is and he got very serious. And he, he was probably about 13 maybe, 14? He was younger. And he goes, " ; Hmm." ; He' ; s like, " ; You know, I don' ; t feel entitled to identify as Hispanic. I don' ; t, I don' ; t feel like it' ; s right for me to say that I am." ; And I' ; m like, " ; What are you talking about, but you are. Like you are." ; And it came to light that he felt he couldn' ; t call himself Hispanic because he was privileged and he' ; s comfortable and he doesn' ; t suffer. And right? He, he' ; s like, he doesn' ; t feel like his Hispanic-ness imperils his life. And I understand, he' ; s so kind and it comes out of, out of such generosity of him. But I thought how sad that our understanding of what it means to be Hispanic is so limited and dictated by violence. And of course I said, " ; There are many ways to be Hispanic like and you are." ; But I understand like where he is coming from and that' ; s his decision. But I, I really want my children to be able to say, " ; Yeah, I' ; m Japanese American. I' ; m all these other things too." ; Because even like I, I know I' ; m Asian American or I can identify this way. Like that' ; s not like my overarching or umbrella identity, but I want them to, to be able to raise their hand, right? When someone asks them. Emma Saito Lincoln: That' ; s a beautiful note to end on, I think. But you brought with you, one more thing that I thought you' ; d like to, to share, so I' ; ll hand that to you. Fred Sasaki: Thank you. Oh there' ; s, one other thing I want to say too, is that the, the trauma of incarceration showed up in my father' ; s death in a very interesting way. And it was tied to our ongoing conversation or activism around it. So when he died, it was very important for me to acknowledge that he was imprisoned right, at Heart Mountain. How to do so? At that time, there was a lot of debate about the language that we used. Do you call them concentration camps? And I was, I didn' ; t know ' ; cause up until that point, that' ; s not how we talked about it and it didn' ; t feel right. And I was asking around for advice and of course it came up, well, this isn' ; t the place. Your father' ; s obituary is not the place to take a, be an activist ' ; cause it was controversial. I think I did call them American concentration camps ultimately. ' ; Cause that seemed to, ' ; cause I, I was basing this off a recommendation off of some summit between a Japanese American organization and a, I think a Jewish organization, which I was so happy to, to learn about. But I thought it was, it was so interesting that the, the wrench or trauma or problem of incarceration, the way it manifested and became very difficult even, even in death. Yeah... I' ; m trying to think what there was... Anyways, so this is a piece I' ; m so happy to share with you. This is a, I don' ; t know if it' ; s watercolor? It is on, on some kind of canvas, but a portrait of Heart Mountain that was created at, in Heart Mountain. I don' ; t know the artist' ; s name or how they knew my family, but it' ; s been in my family since the war. Lived in my father' ; s so-called Japanese room. He devoted a room in his home to all things Japanese and this hung prominently. And I' ; m so proud and happy to have it, and we' ; ll take good care to make sure that this is placed permanently somewhere appropriate but for now, this lives with us. The backside' ; s interesting too. This was framed by John P. Somogyi. Well anyways, I think a Japanese American framer. So yeah. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you for bringing that to share. Fred Sasaki: You' ; re welcome. Emma Saito Lincoln: I was wondering, when you look at that painting, what kinds of feelings does it bring up for you? Fred Sasaki: Wonder but like outside-ness, you know? Like, because I very feel like being on the outside looking at, at Heart Mountain at that experience. So there' ; s like a tender distance, I would say. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you. I think we' ; ll, we' ; ll end there. Fred Sasaki: Great. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you very much for joining us today. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SasakiFred03232021.xml SasakiFred03232021.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
Sort Priority
7200
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sasaki, Fred (3/23/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Fred John Sasaki, a mixed-race sansei/yonsei born and raised in Chicago, discusses the impact his father's family's incarceration at Heart Mountain and his mother's wartime experiences in Poland have shaped his identity. He reflects on the losses and the resilience of both sides of his family, along with the challenges inherent in speaking or writing publicly about a fraught family history. He discusses ways in which he reclaims and celebrates his Japanese heritage and encourages his children to embrace their Cuban/Japanese/Polish American identities.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-03-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Oral History Project
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/570588f664e840c0e010958bcc0cecce.png
ec195f9fa10578391d178978f225108e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Takeshita, Ben
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TakeshitaBen20180615.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Tanforan
Topaz
Tule Lake
Loyalty Questionnaire
No-No Boy
Kibei
Redress
Property Loss
James Wakasa death
Assimilation
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/15/2018 Takeshita, Ben (6/15/2018) 1:58:37 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Tanforan Topaz Tule Lake Loyalty Questionnaire No-No Boy Kibei Redress Property Loss James Wakasa death Assimilation Takeshita, Ben Takada, Anna video 1:|13(11)|25(10)|36(14)|47(6)|59(12)|72(7)|84(10)|94(8)|106(8)|119(7)|134(7)|144(14)|152(12)|160(10)|184(4)|193(15)|204(13)|215(1)|228(4)|238(11)|250(5)|260(3)|271(9)|287(2)|298(7)|309(13)|319(9)|334(13)|348(13)|360(12)|372(1)|382(5)|391(7)|401(4)|415(15)|424(15)|442(5)|452(11)|461(13)|472(6)|481(5)|490(9)|500(1)|509(3)|520(3)|533(5)|542(9)|553(7)|562(12)|573(4)|585(12)|595(5)|604(2)|613(13)|621(9)|633(11)|645(2)|657(5)|666(6)|676(6)|686(9)|695(10)|704(12)|713(2)|721(10)|729(7)|739(3)|755(7)|765(11)|778(7)|796(5)|806(11)|816(5)|826(1)|838(12)|848(8)|864(9)|875(8)|885(12)|894(1)|904(14)|914(6)|923(9)|933(8)|944(10)|955(1)|971(4)|979(9)|991(12)|1003(4)|1014(1)|1022(8)|1032(2)|1042(2)|1051(2)|1060(11)|1072(1)|1085(2)|1093(8)|1102(8)|1111(5)|1121(5)|1130(6)|1139(11)|1148(9)|1158(13)|1167(8)|1177(12)|1196(3)|1211(7)|1223(9)|1233(8)|1248(7)|1264(12)|1277(1)|1288(10)|1301(9)|1312(4) 0 https://vimeo.com/297438925/5cd1f8c7e2 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/297438925?h=5cd1f8c7e2" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ben Takeshita, a nisei, was born in 1930 in Alameda, California and raised in San Mateo, CA with his seven siblings. He describes his father's work prior to World War II, first in farming and later in landscaping and gardening, as well as his own experiences at school and with other Japanese Americans. He recalls traveling to Japan in 1934 with his mother and siblings, and his older brothers' experiences as kibei remaining in Japan to attend school. Twelve years old at the time of Pearl Harbor and Executive Order 9066, he shares his memories of being forcibly removed from his home, the living conditions at Tanforan, Topaz, and Tule Lake, and the controversies that arose over the " ; loyalty questionnaire" ; particularly for issei and kibei like his parents and brothers. Due to his parents and brothers answering " ; no, no" ; to Questions 27 and 28, the family was labeled " ; disloyal" ; and sent to Tule Lake. He discusses the stigma and long-term impact of this treatment on his own life and on a brother who was arrested and subjected to severe psychological abuse. Throughout the interview, he reflects on the injustices committed by the U.S. government against its own citizens, and his commitment to speaking publicly about his experiences to ensure that no other group is ever treated similarly. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Ben Takeshita as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on June 14th at about 10:15AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Ben Takeshita is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? Ben Takeshita: Yeah. My name is Ben Takeshita. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? Ben Takeshita: I was born in Alameda, California in 1930 and, but moved to San Mateo in 1934, so I' ; ve been raised through high school in San Mateo, California, which is south of San Francisco. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe where they were from and what brought them to the U.S.? Ben Takeshita: Okay, my parents were from Fukuoka-ken in Kyushu, Japan, which is at the southern island of, of Japan. My father came earlier probably in the late 1800s or maybe early 1900s. And then my mother came about 1910 or ' ; 12 or somewhere in there. And they were residing in the San Leandro area, which is in the East Bay of San Francisco Bay Area. And my father was working on the farm, and, and I guess my mother was also just helping out in the farm business that they were in. Then I' ; m not sure whether my mother came as a result of getting married or what, but soon in about 1917 or something, they, they got together and got married. So, that' ; s the family history as far as the beginning of their residence in the United States is concerned. Anna Takada: Do you know why they decided to come to the U.S. or what drove them to? Ben Takeshita: Well I, most of the people that came from Japan, they were from the farm countries like Southern Kyushu and so on. And it was, they were in some kind of a depression and so on. And also, there were a lot of rumors and talk about coming to the United States and making money and then returning to Japan and many people who did that. My grandfather who was also here earlier in the San Leandro Area, East Bay Area, he was farming. But he started a, a landscape-gardening business in San Mateo, and then asked my father to take over his, that business in San Mateo so he could return to Japan and that' ; s what, because he wanted to and so he returned. And there were a lot of people that were thinking of coming to the United States, make the money and then go back to Japan and that was it. Except that the World War II is, that interrupted a lot of tho-those kinds of plans that they had originally. And they immigrated officially and got Green Cards and so on. They weren' ; t illegally here or whatever, so they were here legitimately with Green Card holding. But you may know in 1924, they had the Alien Land Law, which forbid Japanese from becoming citizens of the United States nor owning property. So, they were struck twice in terms of not being able to be citizens and own property. So they had to rely on their children who were American citizens born in the United States, to put their properties that they may have purchased in their names to be able to own land in the United States. Anna Takada: And what kind of farm was it that your family had? Ben Takeshita: Mostly vegetable farming. I' ; m not sure what they had, were growing because I wasn' ; t involved in it at that time. Certainly I was born in Alameda, but when I was four years old, they moved to San Mateo, which was not a farming community at that time. So, I don' ; t know what they were growing or whatever. They didn' ; t talk too much about it nor do I remember even if they did. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about what San Mateo was like as you were growing up there? Ben Takeshita: San Mateo was a regular suburb community. A lot of people residing there. I don' ; t know what most of their jobs were. But many of the Japanese Americans, the people were the Issei, which, which is the first-generation Japanese born in Japan but coming, immigrating to the United States. Most of them were landscape gardeners. They were, they were known as Japanese gardeners and they took pride in being Japanese gardeners. The Caucasians who hired them often said, " ; Oh, I have a Japanese gardener." ; It was, it was a good reputation of, of having good jobs as gardeners in, in the cemetery area. There were a lot of white people and also a racial mixture and so on. In, in our schools, there were different races represented. So, it wasn' ; t anything where there was a majority. Well, the majority were Caucasians but other than that, there were a lot of mixtures of different races. Anna Takada: And what kind of, were you involved in any kind of activities or, or what was life like as a, as a kid growing up there? Ben Takeshita: In the, in the grammar schools before the war, most of us Japanese Americans just kind of stuck together. We played handball at the high school-- I mean at grammar school. Handball. And then later on, before the war started in the 1930, thirty two-- I mean, ' ; 39 to ' ; 48 period, there were some Japanese coming back from Japan, being, being educated there. And they would teach us how to play different kinds of Japanese games like they called it jintori or the, doing you know, a treasure picking and so on. We would make boxes, big boxes on the ground with the sticks, and then put rocks in it as the treasure. And we would try to capture that box I mean that so-called treasure and then go back to your own safe. But, but if you got touched then you were caught, so you had to try to run away from them and go back to your... So that kind of Japanese game. But we pretty much stuck together, played handball together, so... And this I felt was not a good thing. Later on, I realized that we were sticking too much together, and so after war I felt that we have to assimilate. And so that, that was the start of my feeling that we shouldn' ; t stick together but mix with the other races and other communities. Anna Takada: And the, so the, these friends that you' ; re describing, were they Kibei, they were born in the US? Ben Takeshita: No, I didn' ; t really... Some of them, as I said, were girls that were educated in Japan, and so they were coming into, to grammar schools to learn English. But other than that, I didn' ; t really know that... Except that my brothers were Kibeis because they went to Japan and studied Japanese for about five years, but other than that, I didn' ; t really know too many Kibeis. I was primarily sticking with the Nisei, which is the second generation or the first-born in the United States. So, and got to know the difference in that the Chinese say that the first-born were called Isseis. And then, whereas the first-born in the United States in Japanese circles is called Nisei. Which is the second generation that the people that were our parents who were born in Japan were the Isseis were the first generation in the United States. So there was a difference even between the racial groups as to how they named their generations. Anna Takada: And, so growing up in your family, did you speak Japanese at all or what were the languages? Ben Takeshita: Well, we spoke to our parents in Japanese because they didn' ; t speak English too well. But our Japanese was just mixed and trying to communicate with them but not fluent Japanese. It was more learning what they taught us and conversing with them. Not talking politics or anything serious because we were kids at the time, yeah. Anna Takada: And so with your peers and maybe your siblings, it was mostly English then? Ben Takeshita: Oh yes, mostly English. Definitely. Anna Takada: And, can you tell me about your siblings? How many siblings do you have? Ben Takeshita: Okay. I had two older brothers, two older sisters and myself, and then two younger brothers and one younger sister. So, eventually by 1939, 1940, we had about eight kids in the family and my parents making it 10 altogether. We did have one brother between the first-born brother and the second-born brother. We had another brother in between, but he passed away at infancy for some kind of ailment. So I don' ; t even know who, who he was or how he was or whatever. Anna Takada: Can you tell me the names of your siblings and then your parents as well? Ben Takeshita: Well, my oldest brother is Satoshi. But during the war periods when he came back from Japan after spending five years learning Japanese. When he came back, you know, Spencer Tracy, the movies was very popular in those days. So my brother, oldest brother took on his name. So in America he' ; s been known as Spencer all the time. My second-oldest brother, he was named Yuzuru. But during the high school days until today, a lot of the teachers couldn' ; t pronounce Yuzuru, so she gave him a name called John. And so that stuck and he became well-educated to where he graduated from UCLA and Parks, I mean, Park College in Kansas City, Missouri. And eventually he ended up in Ann Arbor, Michigan and became a professor of sociology and retired from Ann Arbor, Michigan for all these many years. And then he passed away about three, four years ago. And then my older sister, she was born in, I think, it was in Alameda or somewhere in that East Bay Area. Then she, and then there was another sister called Kiyoko who' ; s my older sister who is Sherry' ; s mother. She passed away several years ago. Now I have my younger sister, then next older sister Kiyoko and she' ; s called Carol and she is still living in, in San Mateo. Then myself was right in there. Then I had a younger brother named Kazuaki, Roy, they named him. And he took that name from Roy Rogers, the cowboy. But he passed away as well several, this year, early this year and we still have to have a funeral for him. And then, no-- I' ; m sorry then that' ; s not the right one. He passed away several years ago here. And then I have my younger sister, Michiko, and she still lives in Foster City in San Mateo County. And then my youngest brother, Bobby, named Yoshio, and he was the one that just passed away early this year. We still have to have funeral services for him in August. That makes up our family of eight kids and my parents, which that made 10 altogether that went into camp during World War II. Anna Takada: And what were your parents' ; names? Ben Takeshita: They were what? Anna Takada: Your parents' ; names? Ben Takeshita: My... Anna Takada: Your parents' ; names. Ben Takeshita: Oh, I' ; m sorry. The parents' ; name. Manzo was my father' ; s name and then my mother' ; s name was Hatsumi. Anna Takada: And so did you have a, a Japanese name then or do you have a Japanese name? Ben Takeshita: No, my name is Ben, which is part of... My mother wanted me to study, so she named me Ben from the benkyou. Benkyou means to study hard, and she wanted me to study hard so named me Ben. So my mother named a lot of our kids based on different reasons. For example, Yuzuru means to yield. And what happened was that, my oldest brother and then the one that passed away and then Yuzuru. So my mother thought that, wow, we had three, three boys, so you want to yield to get females in the family. So then, Sherry' ; s mother was born and that was, it worked out for the family and then Kiyoko came after that, so it yielded two females in the family. Then I came, and then my younger brother Kazuaki came, Roy, and then so on. And then my youngest sister and youngest brother, yeah. Anna Takada: And how would you describe, with so many kids in the family how would you describe, and the two older ones gone... or well, what year did they go to Japan? Ben Takeshita: Yeah. In 1934, after we moved to San Mateo where my father took over my grandfather' ; s landscape business, it' ; s amazing that you know, during the depression years of 1930 and so on, my parents, everything, they saved enough money. So, in 1934, the same year that we moved to San Mateo, my, my mother took two, my older two brothers, older brothers, two older sisters, and myself and my younger brother to Japan to stay with my grandfather in Southern Japan in Fukuoka. So that we could have the two brothers stay in Japan and learn the Japanese language. Because in those days, job discrimination especially amongst, for the Japanese was very strong, and so they couldn' ; t get good jobs. So the understanding and feeling of many Japanese families were to send their sons and daughters to Japan to get the Japanese language education, so that when they come back, maybe they can get a good job with a Japanese firm. Because like in California, in San Francisco and Los Angeles, everywhere, Japanese firms were beginning to show up and so on. So they thought that they might be able to get a better job if they learn the Japanese language. So that' ; s why we went to Japan in 1934. And well, my oldest sister was also supposed to be left behind to go to, to learn Japanese, but she protested so much that my mother felt sorry for her. And so the rest of us came home to San Mateo again and left my two older brothers in Japan. Where they stayed in Japan until 1939 when my parents felt that there was something going on between Japan and the United States that may lead to war. So she had them come back, had the, had the two brothers come back to San Mateo to start our life again back in the United States. Anna Takada: And so how long were y- were you and your sister in Japan since you didn' ; t end up staying? Ben Takeshita: Six month-- We were there only for about six months. I was four years old at the time but I still remember some things that we were doing. For example, I remember this big brick wall that was really way above my head. Then in the Korean War when I went back as an adult to visit my family home and so on, my grandfather' ; s home and so on. I asked him, " ; Where is that big, tall wall?" ; And I was overhanging it. So, my memory of this wall was that it was a tall, big, tall wall but because as a child, but then as an adult it was you know, way below my level. So that kind of thing. Well I asked for what happened to that big river they had that we have to you know go over? And he said, " ; Oh it' ; s that little stream right there." ; But from my memory, I thought it was a very wide river, but it turned out to be just a little stream that we could just walk across almost. So that was the kind of memories that I remember, remember having when I was four years old in Japan. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And so your brothers, your two older brothers came back in 1939. And you said that was in part because your mom had, she was concerned about the relationship between the US and Japan. Do you remember what that was like for them coming back? Ben Takeshita: Yeah. I might say that while they were in Japan, Japan was at war with China. And so the Japanese government wanted to have as many young people as possible to join the Japanese Army. And, my brothers refused very strongly saying that they' ; re American citizens and so therefore will not join the Japanese Army. And eventually the Japanese government gave up and said, " ; Okay, we recognize you' ; re an American citizen, so we won' ; t have you join the Japanese Army." ; And, but in their early lives, in their early teen, late teens, they were you know fighting for their, their rights as American citizens in Japan. So, then they came back in 1939 and two years later the war started. And here our own government did not recognize that American citizenship that the brothers had fought so hard in Japan. And there are instances where, in fact, I know one family whose grandfather succumbed to that pressure and did join the Japanese Army. But fortunate for him, it was towards the end of the war so he didn' ; t have to go battle. He did eventually come back to the United States, but there were people that were pressured to join the Japanese Army. And, and, but they all fought that and resisted that by saying they were American citizens. So there, there' ; s that strong background that they had during their stay in Japan. Anna Takada: And so you' ; re mentioning some of, some of the things that happened during the war. Can you tell me about any memories you might have of Pearl Harbor and kind of the, the start of the war between the US and Japan? Ben Takeshita: Yeah, I remember it was a Sunday and my two brothers had gone on across the way to Berkeley to watch a basketball game. And on the way home from the basketball game, they heard out over the radio that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor. So when they came home, they told us about it that, " ; Pearl Harbor was bombed." ; I didn' ; t even know where Pearl Harbor was. And, and so they were beginning to worry from then as to what was going to happen to us. Because we were Japanese and, and there was discrimination already amongst the, the populace about being discriminated against. So we were wondering what was going to happen to us. And I remember that kind of worry that we all felt at that time when we heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor. Anna Takada: You mentioned the existing discrimination against Japanese Americans in the U.S. As a kid, did you experience any kind of discrimination for your race? Ben Takeshita: Fortunately, I don' ; t remember any kind of discrimination amongst us. We were a mixed in th grammar school I was going to. There were a lot of Germans and Italians, Portuguese and Chinese and so on. But we never felt any form of discrimination as far as I could remember during that period. Anna Takada: Do you remember your own reactions to hearing that news? Ben Takeshita: Yeah, it was more, yeah, what' ; s going to happen to us? That kind of thing. Because my parents and brothers were worried and they could feel that it was, you know it was not good. You know so, it was a matter of what' ; s going to happen, you know, and not knowing that, that was a, an apprehension, you know? Anna Takada: So in the, the immediate aftermath of the attack of Pearl Harbor, did anything change? Ben Takeshita: Oh yeah, almost right away. We had the, the, what they call that, turn off the lights you know, and we, we couldn' ; t keep the lights on after curfew time and so on, and so they started that. And pretty soon we started getting notices that we had to turn in our cameras and anything that were Japanese documents and so on. So my, my parents were beginning to get these things ready, not knowing what was going to be happening. You know, so there was that kind of activity that I remember slightly. Anna Takada: And then how about in, in the following months and... Ben Takeshita: Well, the following months, actually, when the Executive Order 9066 was passed by President Roosevelt on February the 19th. And after that, then within the month they were on all the telephone poles in San Mateo, and I' ; m sure all over in Oregon and Washington as well, there were these bulletins that were posted saying that, " ; All people with Japanese ancestry will have to move out of the West Coast to places away from the West Coast." ; So that caused a lot of commotion. But then you know, normally our family was that we would at least gather at dinnertime and we would all sit around, have our dinner. And at the same time talk about what happened during the day and what was going to happen and so on. So it was a family kind of discussion, and we were very involved in it and so on. But never in my memory do I remember any talk about what' ; s going to be happening to us based on that executive order. So I have a feeling that my parents made sure that they didn' ; t discuss that at the family table, to worry us kids about what was going to happen. So I, I give them a lot of credit for that part, I think. Afterwards though, I realized that, yeah, I don' ; t remember. I have a lot of good memories, but don' ; t remember any discussions about what was going to be happening to us and, and worrying about the different things that might be happening. Anna Takada: And at this time, how, how old is your oldest brother, Satoshi? Ben Takeshita: He was, I' ; m not quite sure. I thought he was 22, but he' ; s maybe about 20 or something like that, my oldest brother. Yeah. Anna Takada: Then your youngest sibling, Bobby was... Ben Takeshita: Well, he was oh, maybe two or three. I' ; m not sure you know, what he was, but he was just born so he was, as the picture might show, very, very young. Maybe two at most. Yeah, two or three, somewhere in there. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Did you have friends at the time or, or peers that were also you know, dealing with the news of the evacuation and the executive order? Did you, did you talk about it in this-- Ben Takeshita: Well, I had you know, other Nisei classmates, but we weren' ; t living close, nearby enough to go to the schools but, to the grammar school. But as far as a discussion with them and so on, I don' ; t recall any of that happening or any conversation. We were going to Japanese language school after our grade and grammar schools and we would talk there, but even that was closed down to where we couldn' ; t go anymore. So we couldn' ; t communicate or talk to the other fellow Japanese because the school was shut down, you know? Anna Takada: Was that following the signing of the executive order or was that before? Ben Takeshita: I, I don' ; t, I' ; m not quite sure when that took place, but I do know that it was eventually closed down. So it' ; s probably in line with the turning in your cameras and short-wave radio and so on, even flashlights. I was on in the Boy Scouts Troop 32. We had to turn in our flashlights and our handbooks because they had Morse code in there and, and we dissolved, and so on. I don' ; t have very good feelings about Boy Scouts since then, you know, although they were active in camp and so on. Anna Takada: Is that because the orders were coming from the troop, or-- Ben Takeshita: Well, I guess you know, because of the fact that the Executive Order 9066 was going to evacuate us, I guess they felt that they, they should dissolve us as well. And, and you know, there were younger people who were in the Army and Navy and so on, they were discharged right off when that war started and especially after Executive Order 9066, so... These are all part of the atmosphere that began to take place after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Anna Takada: And can you, so can you tell me about what happened to your family you know, with the evacuation orders sent out? Ben Takeshita: Yeah, I don' ; t recall the preparation and so on, or, except that on the day that we had to leave our home to move, to walk to our meeting place that was designated to catch our buses to go to what they call the assembly center, which was located in Tanforan in San Bruno, which was about 20, 30 miles south of San Francisco. And, and we were to go there. So the day came and my parents told us to wear as many sweaters and jackets as possible, but still you know, it was 10 of us in the family. We left a lot of clothing in the closets and we just we could only take what we could carry. So that' ; s what we did. And I remember my mother didn' ; t want to leave the precious sugar, so she would make brittles out of them. She would cook the sugar and we didn' ; t have peanuts because that' ; s expensive. But she made little brittles or candy-like things because we didn' ; t know what our food situation was going to be. And my mother felt that by having these brittles, sugar brittles, if we got hungry, we could at least nibble on them to get a little energy. So I remember she making quite a bit of the, the brittles that we took. And those of us who were old enough to carry things, we were given... My mother made bags of things so that we can carry. They included sheets and pillow cases and, and bedding as well as eating utensils, like dishes and cups made of enamel so that we could then take it. And we were told to take these things with us, and you know, but only those things we could carry. So we left a lot of things in the house. My father, had a, his pickup truck was gardening and he left everything there. He did, we did pool... My aunt and uncle, they were American citizens, so they had purchased a home in San Mateo. So in the backyard of that, we built a shed and we put my father' ; s gardening tools and my uncle' ; s gardening tools and everything inside there locked it, and hoping for safekeeping. And we left that. And then we walked to this meeting place to board our buses to go to the Tanforan Assembly Center. I remember while we were walking with all these bags and so on to this meeting place that some of my school mates whose homes we, we had passed, I remember seeing them peeking from their curtains as we walked by. And I remember the feeling of you know, why aren' ; t they coming out to at least wish us well because we were schoolmates. And it was years, maybe years and years later that I realized that they were Germans or Italians and they weren' ; t sure of what was going to be happening to them after our evacuation. And, and therefore they didn' ; t want to be identified as being friendly to the so-called enemy aliens that we were called at that time. So I figured that' ; s why they didn' ; t come out, it is. So I, I forgave them many years later after I realized what the circumstances were. But I still have that feeling of not knowing and why they didn' ; t come out. And that feeling, hurt feeling still exists in my memory. Anna Takada: And so from, from your home in San Mateo, you, you took a train to... You went to a meeting place, took a train to Tanforan. Ben Takeshita: No, it wasn' ; t a train, it was a bus. Anna Takada: Oh, it was a bus. Ben Takeshita: Yeah. And then were... When we got to the meeting place to catch our buses, there were a lot of Caucasians there to help, you know, assigning us to our buses and giving us refreshments and so on. So we were very grateful for their helping us. And then many, many years later, probably after the war, we learned that they were Quakers that stuck their neck out to help us. And in those days, if you helped so-called enemy aliens, they were I' ; m sure given bad names and probably ostracized by many of the public during that period. So we, I try to mention this whenever I make a presentation to show our Japanese American community appreciation for their sticking their necks out in a time, trying time for many of us during that period. And then also the teachers that certainly volunteered to train us on when the school started in America' ; s concentration camps, and there were 10 of them. They were in the Midwest and in California there were two, one in northern California about 30, 40 miles from Klamath Falls, Oregon and the one east of Los Angeles in the mountains called Manzanar. There were two in California and one in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Arkansas, Bismarck, and so on. There were 10 America' ; s concentration camps located in those areas where 120,000 of us were sent. Anna Takada: And, but before going to one of the camps, you went to this... Ben Takeshita: Assembly center, they called. Anna Takada: Right, or Temporary Detention Center. Ben Takeshita: Yeah. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit about your experiences in arriving to Tanforan and maybe first impressions? Ben Takeshita: Yes. It took about an hour, I would think from, I don' ; t recall that ride, but it was certainly leaving my hometown of San Mateo and then going to this place that I didn' ; t, we didn' ; t know where it was. And it turned out to be the racetrack in San Bruno. And we were assigned first to the grandstand where they told us what was going to happen to us while we stayed in this center. And also we were assigned our living quarters. And because our family was a family of 10, we were assigned the barracks that were temporarily built, hurriedly built in the middle of the race, racetracks. My cousins, they were a family of four. So unfortunately they were given assignments at the horse stables, which is located right where the BART station, the Bay Area Rapid Transit station in San Bruno is currently located. Right where they are located is where the horse stables were. And they were there. And I remember during the summer months going to visit them and oh, the, the horse stables, they whitewashed the walls to make it look nice, but certainly the flooring had a lot of holes in them, so you have to make sure you didn' ; t drop anything on, on the floor. And also the stench of the horse manure, they couldn' ; t get rid of that. And so you wondered how during the summer months of 1942, when we were put into these confined quarters, how they were able to stand that kind of stench. That was the bad part, especially going from a nice home to, to these quarters. We were fortunate in getting into the barracks. So a barrack consisted of two smaller rooms on the ends and then about three larger rooms in the middle. But they were, the walls were made out of sheet-- I mean plywood, so thin plywood. There were no ceilings. So when we got there, we got two of those rooms. There was no stove. There was only one light, no running water. So there was the one light. Then we had to put extension cords to extend our lighting to some other areas that we wanted to stay in. And there was certainly no privacy. Then their strategic location, they had what they call latrines for the toilet information. And then they had a shower room, and then they had a laundry room. And then the mess hall where we would go and eat was strategically located in different parts. And when we arrived to our barracks and we were given canvas bags, and we would go to a certain place to get hay and stuff the canvas bag with hay and take it back to our barracks, and that was going to be our mattress for the duration of the stay in these assembly centers. What we found out many years later, in fact in recent years, is that those canvas bags that they issued to us were actually body bags that at one time would be carrying dead bodies. And so the government did quite a bit of things that were just trying to make it worse for, for us living. The situation was such that the, the latrines where they had the toilets had no partitions, so there was no privacy there. The shower were all open so that there were no partitions there. So, the men and boys got used to that a little better. Though I remember my two sisters and many of the-- later found out, many of the women had a lot of problems with a lack of privacy, openness and so on. So they would try to find cardboard boxes to split at least provide some form of privacy in those situations. And I think as a result of that, going abruptly into that kind of situation, the lack of privacy, certainly in the barracks, because there were no ceilings, you can hear voices on both sides of the of, barracks. So we have to make sure we talk in whispers because otherwise you would be heard in the other. And then even at nighttime and so on, we would have to go, if we have to, to take care of our business, we have to go outside to the latrines to take care of our situation. So it was a matter of being thrown into this kind of a situation. The federal government tried to explain to the public that they were doing this as a form of protection for us. Well, but the protection that they talked about when we got into Tanforan was that the barbed wire fences with the, on the top, the barbed wires were facing inwards to keep people in, not outwards, to keep people from coming in. And then guard towers that were strategically located throughout the center would have guards with rifles, some machine guns, facing inwards to keep us in and not outwards to keep people from coming in to attack us or whatever. And the search lights at nighttime were face, facing inwards to show, to make sure that people weren' ; t doing anything wrong at nighttime compared to having it shown outwards to keep the outside from coming in and so on. So, we' ; ve learned very quickly that this was not our, for our protection, it was to keep us in and so on. And so, and you know at that time, well, the Japanese American Citizens League, which was a civil rights organization, was formed in 1929. They were representing the Japanese American community at that time, they, their director, executive director, Mike Masaoka. He was told by the government to go quietly, do not oppose it, and so on. So many of us went quietly into these camps without any demonstration or anything. And, the Japanese Americans on the whole were citizens who obeyed and listened to authority and not protest. Anyway, it wasn' ; t that kind of a racial group as far as we were concerned. So probably because of the racial discrimination as it was, we didn' ; t, we just wanted to do what was told, and, and that was the atmosphere. So, even to this day, you know, there are problems because of those kinds of decisions. Although personally, I feel that it did prevent us from a lot of people from getting killed because had we protested, I think there would' ; ve been a lot of riots and so on. So in a way, it was a good decision, but at the same time, it doesn' ; t sound right to have gone quietly. The young people today say, " ; Why didn' ; t you protest?" ; But well, in those days, the atmosphere is different. And so we did what we had to do. Yeah. Anna Takada: Thank you for, for sharing about some of those conditions. So was that... The, the conditions you described, do you remember as, let' ; s see, you must have been almost a teenager. Ben Takeshita: I was 11. Anna Takada: Yeah, 11 years old. Do you remember your, your reactions to that or to the situation? Ben Takeshita: Well, we, we found out very... For us, we were you know, young, playful, and so on. We found you know, friends, new friends and so on. And we would go eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner with our friends and not with our parents and so on. And my sisters would do the same, so that this was also a breakout of the family because my mother then, she wasn' ; t that sociable. So she would get the food at the mess hall, go back to her barrack and eat the food by herself. My father was working at the mess hall, tried to earn some money, $16 a month to buy toothpaste and different things for the family and so on. So he was working all the time. And so all we did, my brothers would go on their own and so on, because they were older and so on. So for us kids, we had a good time because there was no school. So we just ate, played, ate, played, ate, go to the barracks and go to sleep for the next day and so on. And so we got used to this life of pleasure for us. And, and a lot of people would think, " ; Well, gee, then it was good for you." ; But no, it wasn' ; t. But in those days, we knew that we couldn' ; t resist. We didn' ; t have any weapons or anything, you know, and we were told not to resist. So we just... And human beings are such that we learn to get by with whatever circumstance we have, adjust to it and be practical about it, not resist it. In those days, resistance was not part of the game at that time, anyway. So that' ; s the atmosphere that was occurring in these Assembly Centers. Anna Takada: And so how long was your family in Tanforan? Ben Takeshita: We were there until September of 1942. When we were at that time, told that we would be moving to a place called Topaz, Utah in, in September. So we had this nice life in Tanforan, but eventually we had to move out of that atmosphere and go to this place called Topaz, Utah. We had to board trains. And when I got on the train, there was one military police MP assigned to each train, and the, the windows were all closed down, shaded. And I was bold enough to go up to the MP and ask him you know, when we go past San Mateo, because I knew the train would be passing San Mateo, I, I asked him if I could open the shade to look at my San Mateo for the last time, possibly, because we didn' ; t have no idea when we would come back, if at, if at all. So I told him, I asked him that, and I remember that, rough " ; No" ; , so, and I remember him watching me very closely to make sure I don' ; t peek out of that shade or open the shade. So I remember that much. But I fooled him, and I knew that when we would go by San Mateo, they would have these railroad crossings, and whenever the railroad crossing comes down, it goes, ding, ding, ding, ding. You could hear that. So I knew that from San Bruno, you go to Millbrae, Millbrae, Burlingame, Burlingame, and then for about three crossings there would be the San Mateo. So when I counted a number of dings that I would hear in that as we got to the point where I thought might be San Mateo, then I gave my personal farewell. I still remember that feeling that I had of that time because we had no idea what was going to be happening to us and whether we could ever come back to San Mateo. So, there was a feeling that I, I still feel to this day as we passed San Mateo on the trip to this place called Topaz, Utah. Anna Takada: And can you talk a little bit about Topaz and how, how was it different from Tanforan? Ben Takeshita: Sure. The, when the train, the next morning the MP told us that we could open the shades. And it turned out to be nothing but desert because we were either in the eastern part of Nevada or into the Salt Lake City, Salt Lake area, where again, there was a desert. So, by the time we got to a place called Delta, which is in the middle of Utah, we boarded trucks. And from there we went about an hour back east, north-- southeast, and ended up in the middle of nowhere, actually, where thousands of years ago, that whole area was covered by water. And so there was a, there was a sandy soil. The sand was so fine that it was like the cement that you would find. And so when we got off the trucks from Delta, when we got off the trucks, you could slip down on the sand and it would just puff up because it was so fine. And we found out later that there was a lot of wind storms. So many times we had to wear handkerchiefs around our mouths and nose to make sure we don' ; t breathe a lot of that stuff, because it was coming through our barrack' ; s windows and so on. The barracks were much better built. They were more sheet rock walls, and eventually they put ceilings on the, on, in each room so that the privacy level, the sound level was certainly cut quite a bit compared to what was happening in Tanforan. So we had a little, little more privacy. And we again, because of our family size, we got two rooms. So we were able to partition off. There was no water, running water yet, but the, in, in Topaz, the, they had 42 blocks. And each block consisted of a row of 12 barracks on one side and on the other side and in the middle, then they would have the latrines and the laundry room, the mess hall, and so on and in between. So, and there were 42 of these. And I remember we were on the one end of it where has 36, 37, 38, 39, until 42. So we were in block 37 of Topaz where we started our life in this desert of area. And it' ; s the first time that I experienced snow because, because in San Mateo in California, we never even dreamed of having snow. So we had that happening to us. Can I have a drink of water? Anna Takada: Oh yes, please. So when you arrived to Topaz, that was in September ' ; 42, did you have to start school when you were in Topaz? Ben Takeshita: Yeah, unfortunately, the school started almost right away. So yeah, my lifetime in... Life in Topaz I primarily went to school all day Monday through Friday, and then doing homework and so on. And on weekends, and sometimes on weekends, the blocks began to form softball teams, and so they would compete against other blocks and so on. So we would watch those kinds of games. Sometimes they had movies where they would show old Japanese movies or American movies, and so we would go and watch them in the recreation barracks and so on. So there was some semblance of, of leisure and so on. But most of my time I remember in Topaz was of, going to school and that was my life. Although in Topaz, we also... I participated in doing, you know they, they have talent shows and so on throughout the mess halls to, for the people to watch and so on. And I remember being part of a, of a presentation where I was the Onizuka Butaicho, who was a famous general in the Russo-Japanese war. And there was a narrator next to me that would narrate what I, I was doing and I would wear a military uniform and I would memorize it in Japanese. I didn' ; t know what I was saying, but they told us how to say it and how to raise the voice and so on. So you know, I still remember some of the things like shōkan wa jibun no gunji shōkan to shite. But you know, that' ; s the way we would have to talk. I don' ; t know what I was saying! (laughs) It' ; s, my memory just remembered that, I think it was, in those days, I had good memory, but I still remember some of the words. I don' ; t know what they meant. But anyway, and then we entertained people. And everyday I made them cry because they would, the people who understood what I was saying would shed tears and so on. So I guess I was doing pretty good. (laughs) Anna Takada: And that was the start of your acting career, right? Ben Takeshita: Yeah! (laughs) Anna Takada: And as far as family dynamics, how did that change in camp, if at all? Ben Takeshita: Well, it didn' ; t really change until you know in January of 1943, almost one year, not quite one year, but after we were put into our so-called assembly centers in San Bruno, the federal government decided that they wanted to find out how many people would be willing to serve in the US Army. So they put out a questionnaire that those who were 17 years and over had to respond to. I understand there were about 50 questions, but question number 27 and 28 were the key questions that specifically talked about their willingness to serve in the US Army. And I have a copy of those two questions if you wished for me to read them. Anna Takada: Sure. Ben Takeshita: And, and these were the two questions that became very important to the rest of our lives in camp and even afterwards as far as our development was concerned. So question number 27 said, " ; Are you willing to serve in the Armed Forces of the United States on combat duty wherever ordered?" ; Now you know, when you are a young mother who had young children and so on, you, you really if you were a responsible parent, you cannot answer this question yes. Because that would mean going to combat duty wherever ordered. Now, later on, they did change that to not combat duty, but not in the army, but as a nurse' ; s aid for the women anyway, but it was too late. I mean, the, the instance was... I mean the question still was on, on combat duty, even as a nurse when, wherever ordered. And so there was a lot of problems as to how do you answer this question? And so on. Question number 28, " ; Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and faithfully defend the United States from any and all attack by foreign or domestic forces?" ; So far so good. " ; And," ; not or, but " ; and forswear any form of allegiance of the Japanese Emperor or any other foreign government power or organization." ; Now, many of us Niseis born in the United States don' ; t even know about the emperor. For one, our parents did because they were born in Japan, but we didn' ; t. And, but if you answer this, yes, then that means that you are admitting based on the question that you at one time forsweared allegiance to this emperor and so on. So it was difficult to answer that. And especially then our, our parents who because of the federal law in 1924, were forbidden from becoming U.S. citizens, even if they wanted to, in order to own, own property. And that law was rescinded in 1952, shortly after Kor--, the Korean War started. So they were again, at a dilemma. If they answered this yes, then that would mean they would be without a country and so on. So these were two questions that began to affect a lot of people, a lot of families, a lot of relatives, as to how to answer this question. And this is where my oldest brother gets involved in that, he was in his twenties, and, and he had the experience in Japan where he had to fight the Japanese government, for, claiming to be American citizen. And therefore did not want to serve in the Japanese army that they were trying to recoup for. And the Japanese government allowed that. They didn' ; t put him into jail, but said, " ; Okay, you' ; re an American citizen, so we' ; ll let you go." ; Of course, his fellow students and other public people still harassed him about joining the Japanese army and so on and, and fight. So my brother certainly remembers that. And many other kibeis, the kibeis are people who were American citizens that were educated in Japan and came back to the United States. And many of them felt the same way because they were experience the same thing of being harassed by the Japanese government and having to claim that they were Japanese... I mean American citizens. So they tried, when there were a lot of meetings about how to answer the questions... Excuse me. When they were asked about how to answer these questions, my brother was one of those that as a kibei went to the many mess hall meetings that occurred in all the 10 camps and start to try to encourage them to be, to answer these questions, " ; No." ; And do it as a form of protest for what the U.S. government did to us regardless of citizenship. And my brother, because of that activity, got on the FBI list, as being antagonistic and so on. And in fact, the FBI report that I recall shows that he was the ha-- known to the FBI people as a " ; hara-kiri kid" ; and hara-kiri means to commit suicide. And evidently in his presentations, he told them that if you answered these questions in the positive, " ; Yes, yes," ; or " ; Yes, yes, no, no, yes." ; If you answered them in the positive, then he would commit hara-kiri. So evidently he was fortunate enough to say that to the point where the FBI named him as the " ; hara-kiri kid" ; . And many years later, I had asked this lady who was living in Baltimore to find out about my brother' ; s FBI report, the labor, because of the federal archives. And so she investigated and, and found the report on my brother, and that' ; s where I, I got a document that says the " ; hara-kiri kid" ; and also says that, " ; He does not want to repatriate to Japan. He did it as a form of protest." ; It' ; s right there on the FBI report to show that a lot of times my brothers and many others did so because of their experience in Japan, that they were doing it as a form of protest for putting citizens, American citizens, regardless of trial or, or anything to be put into these so-called camps, which the young people today call prisons, which they were, you know. So I figure that my brother was very strong in, in that regards to tell, try to encourage people to answer these questions, " ; No." ; But then there was so much controversy and many of the fathers, parents, told their kids that " ; You were born and this is your country, so I will leave it up to you as to how you want to answer." ; And many of them did answer yes, especially those who did not go to Japan. They were here in the United States. They were certainly, tasted many of the discrimination that was occurring, job discrimination and so on. But they didn' ; t have to fight for the citizenship as they had to do when they were in Japan. And so many of them did join the U.S. Army. And in those days they formed this Japanese American, the Nisei Battalion, and so on, the 442nd. And they did quite a bit of courageous work and heroics in the European stage, as many of us know from that period. So there was that group that started. There was another group then that answered " ; No. No." ; in resistance to what the US government did to, especially, American citizens and people who immigrated from Japan legally and were green card holders, and they still disregarded their rights as individual persons. So then come summer of 1942, then because of all this controversy... The US-- 1943 rather, the US government said that, " ; Okay, we' ; re going to decide that all those who answered, " ; No, no or yes, no or no, yes or didn' ; t answer at all, are considered to be disloyal to the United States, and therefore they will be sent to the camp in Tule Lake," ; which is in Northern California. And those in Tule Lake who answered in the positive " ; Yes, yes," ; would be sent to the other camps, or some of them were allowed even to go back to the Midwest, which many of them came to Chicago and so on during that period because they were allowed to do that. So there was a lot of movement that this began to occur in August, Septemb-- in August of 1943. And our family, in September, moved from Topaz back to California, but into this camp called Tule Lake in Northern California. There were a lot of movements that occurred during that period. Anna Takada: Do you mind if I stop you for just one-- Ben Takeshita: Sure. Anna Takada: ...one moment. I am curious to hear more. If you have any more details about, about your brother' ; s involvement in organizing these meetings and about the meetings themselves, you know trying to, to coordinate with people to answer, " ; No, no." ; Was that something, were you aware of those meetings? As-- Ben Takeshita: I was aware that he was attending the meetings, but I was not of age to even be 17. So I was only 12, 13 at that time. So I wasn' ; t even involved in the answering of the questions. But I do know that my brothers were very involved, especially my oldest brother. My, the second-oldest brother, he wasn' ; t too much of, involved in that. He was more the studious type though, and studying and so on. But, my oldest brother was involved. But beyond that, they set up these meetings as you know, the managers of the block. Each block would set up these meetings for the people in that block to go attend these meetings to hear what or how to answer these questions. But other than that, I didn' ; t attend any of these meetings, so I don' ; t know what the atmosphere was. I understand later on that there were a lot of meetings, there were a lot of threats, and a lot of people remember those kinds of things, and therefore don' ; t want to talk about it. Even, even to this day, there are very, very few people would even talk about the lo-- so-called loyalty questionnaire because of the bad feelings that they had. Their family may have been threatened or, or beaten, so they just don' ; t want to talk about it and just let it go. So I' ; m, I' ; m really one of the few people that even talks about it. And because it' ; s because I knew what was happening to my brothers and they were involved in that activity. And so from that standpoint, I' ; m able to talk about it. Anna Takada: And do you have any idea or sense of how your parents either answered or responded? Ben Takeshita: Yeah, my parents, the reason they answered, " ; No, no," ; to that question was, to those, to those two questions were because during wartime, they wanted to keep the family together as, as, together as much as possi--, as long as possible. So that was the only reason they answered, " ; No, no." ; And naturally if they answered it, " ; Yes, yes," ; they' ; ll be without a country anyway, because they couldn' ; t become American citizens. And so they answered, " ; No, no," ; just to keep our family together. So all 10 of us when September of 1943, were sent to Tule Lake by train and, and, and started our life in Tule Lake. Anna Takada: Was anyone else in your family at that time... Did, did anyone else answer the question, the questionnaire? Ben Takeshita: Well, it was my two oldest brothers. My oldest sister was still not 17. Anna Takada: Okay. Ben Takeshita: So she didn' ; t have to answer. So it was my two parents and my two oldest brothers that were answering the questions. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So September in 1943, that' ; s when you all moved to Tule Lake. And so was Tule Lake any different from Topaz? Ben Takeshita: Well, the Tule Lake, as in terms of the living quarter, we got, again, two rooms because of our, the size of our thing. But the rooms were already used before by people that left Tule Lake. So the, the rooms were not new, but nevertheless they were lived in and, and they had the same thing. But they also had a stove, coal stove, because of the cold winters, just like in Topaz, there was a coal stove as well. But no running water. The blocks were the same as in Topaz, except that they, the blocks were made into wards as well. So many blocks made up a ward. And so they were ward 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on throughout. It was a bigger camp certainly, than what we were seeing in Topaz. And there were a lot of rumors flying around in those days. And one of the rumors were that where we were, who were in Tule Lake, then we would eventually be traded with exchanged for prisoners of war that Japan had of U.S. soldiers and that we will be eventually sent to Japan in that exchange. So my brothers and some of the other bilingual people realized that they better teach then, us kids how to speak Japanese so that when we got to Japan, we would at least be able to survive and, and speak their language. So the Japanese, my brother and many of the Japanese bilingual people, started Japanese language classes throughout Tule Lake. And our class, school was one of the first ones that started. And, and, and my brother told us, told us in the family, that since we knew our English already, that we should concentrate on learning Japanese. So he wanted us to spend full time in, in the Japanese language school that they started and not go to the English classes that started in, in November, December of that same year. And that, and on top of that, then he said that again, in order to learn Japan, Japanese quick- quicker, that when we got home from the schools that we only speak Japanese at home and not speak English. And, and a lot of times at the beginning I would have friends come over who didn' ; t speak Japanese, so I would speak to them in English. But then my brother would hear us in the next room and then the next morning in the front of the class, he would tell the class that, " ; I heard you speaking English at home." ; And so hit us on the head a few times. And so that taught us very quickly that we better just speak Japanese when we got home. And so since then my life was learning Japanese and, and speaking Japanese as much as possible. So that was, was two and a half years that we stayed in Tule Lake. That was my life, is to learn and speak Japanese as much as possible. Anna Takada: Did anyone, did anyone actually end up leaving Tule Lake? Or, or what happened with... Ben Takeshita: Well, the people that answered in the positive " ; Yes, yes," ; to those two questions and certainly left. There were, as we moved in, there were others that were moving out. There were some groups that had answered it in the positive, " ; Yes, yes," ; but wanted to stay because they didn' ; t want to leave the camp. They either had good jobs or their parents may have been elderly and they didn' ; t want them to suffer moving again and so on. So they wanted to stay. So there were some groups that answered it in the positive, " ; Yes, yes," ; but stayed. But they were confined to certain parts of the camp and not mingled with the so-called " ; no-no" ; group that started to come into the camp and that were in camp when they answered those questions. So there was, then there were also people from Hawaii that, you know, who were confined and so on, that eventually came in to Tule Lake as well. They were, I guess people who were either... They were in, well, they were in camp in Hawaii. You know in recent, in recent years we found that there was also a camp set up in Hawaii as well. So a lot of those people then were moved to Tule Lake, to, to the camp there. Anna Takada: So, in your two and a half years in Tule Lake... Probably over that time, because Tule Lake was of course kind of converted into this high max, like maximum security camp you know for those who are quote, unquote disloyal. Ben Takeshita: Right. Anna Takada: And which means that they, they had, there' ; s, like you' ; re mentioning, there' ; s the shift of basically, people who were in there based solely on how they responded to the questionnaire? Ben Takeshita: Did, did they what? Anna Takada: So the, there were, the people who were moving in, like your family, were those who had responded, " ; No, no," ; to the questionnaire. In your experience, because of, of course you' ; re still very young even at this time, do you remember talking to any other young people or peers who might' ; ve also moved in from a different camp? Did you hear about different experiences? Ben Takeshita: Yeah, the, in the Japanese language classes that my brothers started, we would get people from, they were all " ; no-nos" ; to begin with, their parents were. And so the people that came were either my age or a little bit older or younger, and so I met them. But in terms of why they, their parents answered, " ; Yes, yes," ; or " ; No, no," ; I mean, how they answered, we didn' ; t get into any of that. We just were concentrating on, on learning Japanese. Now, on the weekends, again, there were baseball games to wa-- watch and so on. And as kids, there were a lot of seagulls flying around in the, in the camp. So part of what I remember doing was we would get sort of hooks and with a string on, attached to it, and we would put bread on it and then catch the seagull as they tried to eat the bread. And when we caught them, then I would help holding the seagulls down. And I don' ; t know where they got it, but they got the red paint and they would put it, paint the underside of the wings with the red, red dot, so to speak, making the symbol of the Japanese flag, and then we' ; ll let them go. So eventually there would be a lot of seagulls flying around with the red dots under their wings. And two or three years ago when I went on a Tule Lake pilgrimage, I, I saw this cartoon, that said, which showed this MP shooting at these, the seagull with the red dots on, on the wings. So that made us happy because we were certainly, the MPs were so, our so-called enemies that were visible to us. And to have them shooting at our production was something that we really were happy to see. But there were a lot of, a lot of seagulls flying around with the red dots on them. Anna Takada: So I' ; m looking at some notes I took from your presentation last night. And one thing I wanted to ask about was... So your brothers who had k-kind of started these Japanese language classes... And you, you had mentioned even later in life finding FBI records and learning a little bit more. I' ; m just curious if you, if you can tell me about what you know of, I guess about your brothers being kind of targeted by the FBI, or at least you know raising some concern? Yeah, can you, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Ben Takeshita: Well, that happened because after the language, Japanese language school started in Tule Lake, that was September, 1943. One year later, September, 1944, we thought we' ; d have a anniversary celebration of one year existence. So we had a track and field event planned, and we, that day came in September where we had, in, in Japanese they call undōkai, where it' ; s a, a track and field event. So we started the track and field event on this field, and all of a sudden we were surrounded by Jeeps with military police, with rifles, and they took my oldest brother, who was one of the teachers of the school and one of the students, and took them away. So naturally, our track and field event stopped abruptly, and the student was returned very quickly that same day. But my brother was kept for weeks. We had no idea where he went or what they were doing with him or what. So, it was almost a month before he was returned. And when he was returned, he was not himself, to be sure. I could see that he was subdued and not the, the gang, the gung ho type of person, personality that he was. But as a student and he as an instructor, and instead of being brothers, I couldn' ; t ask him at that time what had happened to him. So it was many years later, during the Korean War, when my brother, after the war ended in 1945, he decided to return to Japan because of the mistreatments that he got as an American citizen here in the United States. So he went back to Japan. And so during the Korean War, when I joined the U.S. Army, went and eventually assigned to Tokyo, I met him and talked to him about what had happened. And that' ; s when he told me that they had interrogated him when they took him away. Interrogated, the FBI, interrogated him quite a bit because of his activities in Topaz during the loyalty questionnaire. And they even had, one time, then took him outside, offered him a cigarette... He was standing up against the fence or wall, and they gave him, offered him a cigarette, that he refused. They gave him a blindfold and put ' ; em on. And as he put the blindfold on, he could see a line of soldiers in front of him with rifles, and he heard the command, " ; Ready, aim, fire." ; And when the fire and the command went on, then you heard the click, click, clicks to indicate that there were no bullets in the rifle but naturally, he didn' ; t know. And this is when I' ; m sure in the few seconds that he had, he remembered the incidences in Topaz right near block 37 where we were with this old man, of 55 or so years old. He was getting too close to the fence and the guard evidently told him to " ; Go back, you' ; re getting too close to the fence." ; And the person did not hear, they said he was walking his dog, but I don' ; t recall having a dog. But I do recall that he was picking up seashells. And even I have done it where there was a lot of sand and a lot of... As I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of water in those days in those sands. So we would pick the seashells and we would press it, and if it breaks, it' ; s no good, but if it doesn' ; t break, then we would keep it and give it to the ladies who then make bracelets and necklaces and rings out of those seashells. So we were doing that. And it takes a little concentration of doing that. And I understand this man was a, a little hard of hearing as well, but the guard didn' ; t know that he just point blank, shot him dead. And so that was one instance. And in Tule Lake, this truck driver who lived right across in the next barrack, and he was, he was friendly talking to us, us kids about you know, his life and so on. And he was a truck driver that drove the farm workers out into the field and then bring ' ; em back to the camp. And one day this guard stopped him from coming into the camp. So he got out of the truck and walked towards the guard to see what was happening, and then the guard got afraid or something and just shot him point blank. So these were the kinds of things that were happening in the camp. I just remember two of these that occurred, and, and that' ; s the way they kept us in line saying that, " ; Hey, if you disobey, we' ; ll shoot you." ; And so this was the kind of atmosphere that we' ; re involved in. And my brother was certainly involved in it to the point where I have testified under oath when the commission came out to, interro-- interrogate or talk to us about what happened in the camps in 1988, they were in San Francisco. So I testified about my brother' ; s situation at that time. Anna Takada: Was that... This testimony, was that for the... That was a part of the redress? Ben Takeshita: Yes. Anna Takada: Okay. Ben Takeshita: Yeah, I was active in starting that redress movement, but there were a lot of World War II veterans that would come up to me and say, " ; Ben, forget about it. Don' ; t rock the boat anymore. Just, you know it happened. Let bygones be bygones." ; And so we had to put out a survey that, at that time I was active with the Japanese American Citizens League. So, we would put out a survey to the Northern California District Council Group to find out if we should go ahead with the redress movement. And turned out that we had about 80, 90% response. And many of them said, yes, go ahead with redress. So, okay, that made us start and get going on how to, how much to ask for and so on. We started out with of $75,000, 75... yeah, thousand per person. But within the 20 years that we spent trying to get that legislation passed, it was dwindled down to $20,000 per person. So $20,000 seems like a lot of money, but when you compare it with the, the about five Vietnam veteran, Vietnam protestors during the Vietnam War, who in Washington DC were confined in jail without any trial for the weekend, they protested because they, they were in jail without any trials, and they got $10,000 each for being confined for three, four days unconstitutionally and suddenly. And so when you compare that with the $20,000 for three and a half years of confinement, it was really... They' ; re cheap in terms of, of what happened to us and the treatment that we received by the U.S. government. Anna Takada: I had... Thank you for sharing all of this. I, I am trying to stay on top of the time. Ben Takeshita: Sure. Anna Takada: I' ; m also realizing I could talk to you for hours, just try to pick your brain, but just for time' ; s sake... Let' ; s see. So I guess, just so we can have it on the record and to contextualize a little bit, can you tell me, briefly if you' ; re able to, just where, when you were released from Tule Lake and where, where you ended up going? Ben Takeshita: Sure. After the war ended in August of 1945, then we were told that we could return, leave the camp and return to our hometowns or wherever we wanted to go to. So my aunt and uncle were American citizens, so they had purchased a home in San Mateo, and so they invited us to go back and stay with them until we found our permanent homes. So we were able to go back to San Mateo and live in their home, which was very crowded. As soon as we got back from camp, my oldest brother decided to go back to Japan because of the mistreatments he received in the United States. So he went back, but when he went back to Japan he found that the Japanese people asked him, " ; Why did you come back?" ; You know, " ; Was there a shortage of food?" ; and so on. So, my brother spent a lot of time writing back to Tule Lake to his friends and so on to tell them, " ; Don' ; t come back to Japan. They don' ; t want you" ; . And so a lot of people did not return to Japan but stayed in the United States because of what my brother did. My second oldest brother, he was still trying to learn English because he had forgotten the English that he had learned when he went back to Japan for language training in 1934 to ' ; 39. So he was still going to school and then wanted to graduate from high school in Tule Lake. So he stayed and didn' ; t come back, go back to San Mateo with us. We went back to San Mateo and my father started working. We went to the shed that we left open-- locked with our garden tools but we found that that shed was broken into during that three and half years we were gone and all the tools were gone. So my father really had to start all over and pick up the tools and so on and then find the customers to do the you know, gardening work and started doing that. As a result of that kind of restarting our new life to keep us, well keep, get at some kind of income for the family, he was, was overcome and he passed away in, at the age of 55 shortly afterwards. So but the rest of us, we went back to school. I was kind of upset over my brother, oldest brother for forcing us to go to the Japanese class and not go to English classes because that made me two years behind in my school educ--, English school education. My fellow grades-- people before the war, they were already in high school but I had to start out in eighth grade and go on from there. So I really resented having to do that because of my oldest brother. And I also refused to admit that I spoke Japanese because I thought that was a sign of disloyalty and I didn' ; t like that word disl-- to be disloyal but even though I didn' ; t participate in the questionnaire I felt that I was, because I was in Tule Lake that we were labeled as being disloyal. So I wanted to prove my, you know just the fact that I was labeled disloyal. But because of the rooming conditions during high school, when I got into high school, I started working as a school boy for the fours years that I was in high school to, because the home where my aunt lived was too crowded. So my two oldest sisters and myself, we, they went to school girl and lived with, with rich families and did the housecleaning and, and cooking help and so on. I did the you know, school boy where I did the gardening and the, the washing dishes and some of that kind of work for the four years that I was... And while I was in high school I tried to assimilate as much as I can by joining the high school band and learned how to play the trombone and went as, and joined the Junior Statesman' ; s Club and the German Club and the Spanish Club just to make sure that they understood who I would, where I was coming from and assimilate. And I tried to encourage others to do the same by mingling with the other people instead of staying together with our own racial group. So that was the kind of life that I led in high school. When high school ended in 1950, the Korean War started so I thought " ; Oh, this is my chance for starting, or proving my loyalty to my country." ; So I cleaned out the basement with a lot of things that were, we had brought back from camp and I cleaned it out, took to the dumpster. And the Korean War was still ongoing and I joined the Korean War effort, U.S. Army for three years in August of 1940-- 1950 and went to basic training in Fort Ord. And, after, before I got my assignment I was given kitchen help duty and assigned to the you know, washing pots and pans because I knew how to wash pots and pans because of my school boy work. And so they would assign me every day after roll call to do kitchen help work. So I thought " ; Oh, this isn' ; t what I wanted." ; So I started to apply for U.S. Army Band and tried to get into officer candidate school. And also as a final solution I said that I spoke a little Japanese and so took the Army Language School test that they had out in Monterey, California and I passed it because of the vigorous training that I had received in Tule Lake. So I passed it and went to language school in Monterey for about a year and then got assigned with the Military Intelligence Agency and went on to Japan and again, started working in Tokyo and, and interrogated the repatriates from China that were coming back, the Japanese that were coming back and also the fisherman in the Kuril islands that were captured by the Russians and I interrogated them as to what the conditions were. And also went to Korea and interrogated our prisoners of war of China and Chinese, and Koreans but I didn' ; t understand their language, didn' ; t speak their language so I had to use a Japanese interpreter and, who spoke that, their language. And when I would ask my questions in Japanese and he would ask the prisoner in Chinese or Korean, give it back to me in Japanese and I would write it down in English. So, until this very day I think " ; Wow, I hope we got it all right" ; because of all the interpreting that was going down during that period. But I did that and also on weekends I visited with my brother where I heard, learned a lot about what had happened during his confinement in camp and so on and so on. I got to know him well to where 10 years later he decided to come back to the United States and so I sponsored him and came back and-- Anna Takada: What year was that? Ben Takeshita: That was in 1950, oh 50' ; ... I was still in the... I g-- No, I got out of camp so it was-- I mean I got out of the Army and so on and so it was 1960, somewhere in there that he did come back and he stayed in the San Jose area for about 10 years. And he had a Japanese wife and so the Japanese wife wanted to go back to Japan. So after 10 years here in the United States he, they did go back to Japan before he passed away in Japan. But I just served my time in the U.S. Army for three years and then after that started going to college under the G.I. bill in 1953, actually started in 1955. And then went on to U.C. Berkeley, got my Public Administration degree at U.C. Berkeley and then started working for the Department of Employment, which is a state agency because jobs were still not very good for Asian Americans in private sector so I figured that working with the state would be good, so a bit better. So I started working for the state, worked for them for 42 years with the state. And as, at the time I retired, which is 18 years ago, I was the manager of the job service offices in Contra Costa County, which is a big county within the, the San Francisco Bay Area and that' ; s where I ended up being and retired in the year 2000. And since then in my retirement I' ; ve been bowling three times a week and golfing you know, at least once or twice a month and enjoying my retirement life. Also, I participate in talking about my World War II experience at least once or month or the last day of each month at the Richmond Rosie the Riveter Museum where I, we show the movie " ; Blossoms & ; Thorns" ; , which is about the Japanese American cut flower business in the Richmond area and before and after the war and how the war affected them and talks about that. And after we show that video of, of 20 minutes or so then I talk about my World War II experience and let people know that this kind of thing did happen here in our United States and we want to make sure that it doesn' ; t happen again. So, that' ; s my story so far. Anna Takada: Thank you so much. I' ; m so impressed with how you' ; re able to just wrap that up. You know, only a casual, you know, 80 something years. (laughs) Before we completely wrap up there are just a, a few questions that I wanted to be sure to squeeze in, in the small amount of time we have left. I guess to, to start, I' ; m just, I' ; m curious to know how, how this questionnaire, you know, these two questions, how did the, the way in which your family responded to them, how did that kind of change or shape, rather, your experiences later on whether in camp or beyond if at all? You know did that... Because I, I know that there you know, there were lots of different ways in which people responded to, to this, to the idea or concept of serving in the military in the 44, the 442nd. So I' ; m just curious if you can just tell me how, how that affected your life? Ben Takeshita: It affected me quite a bit as I had related because I didn' ; t like the word that we were " ; disloyal" ; just because we were in Tule Lake. Although I was not of age to answer the questionnaire we were in to Tule Lake and so with the Japanese American Citizens League, which, where I was active, I was known as the " ; No-No Boy" ; in, in a derogatory way and I didn' ; t realize it un-until then, but, at that time but evidently it was. And I wanted to you know, prove that I was not disloyal and also, I felt that based on my brother' ; s experience, that the Kibeis had a reason for answering no, no because of their harassment at the Japanese government during the war there in Japan. And there were many of them that were harassed the same way. So the Kibeis, the, the people that were educated in Japan, American citizens, they couldn' ; t understand how, why the Niseis who were born and not raised, or not, had not gone to Japan, how they would answer those questions yes when they were you know, discriminated against and put into camp regardless of citizenship and how they could even answer those two questions yes. So they vocally you know, were many times very active in trying to convince people to answer " ; no, no" ; and, and as I, I admit that there was many beatings or a lot of verbal you know, arguments and so on. And many of them were older so they would talk a lot more and then they got a bad reputation of being Kibeis and troublemakers and all these kinds of things. But that' ; s why my purpose is to let them know that this is the reason, one of the reasons why they answered " ; no, no" ; is to, because of their experience in Japan, and also their, they had to fight for their citizenship at a young age and coming back here our own government decided not to respect that citizenship that Japan even had respected or understood. So those are the kinds of things that affected my life. And, and so I, I feel pretty good in that you know, I joined the U.S. Army so no one could call me not, to call me disloyal because I, I enlisted. I didn' ; t want for the draft. I enlisted for a three year period to serve my time, in a time of war when the Korean War was very hot when I joined in August of 1950. So all, all those things I feel comfortable. And in terms of speaking Japanese, at one time I thought that speaking Japanese might be a sign of disloyalty but I went to the Army Language school, went to MI--, got assigned with the Military Intelligence and I was able to, for the U.S. Government, speak in Japanese and teach, give information to our U.S. Army about what was happening and so on. So I was using my Japanese to help them out instead of you know being labeled. So, to, to me speaking Japanese is no longer a sign of disloyalty but something that I could use. And in fact, when I started working for the Department of Employment at the time and I started being active in the professional association of that organization, the Japanese, we used to have international delegates, I mean, conventions throughout the United States and Japan would send delegates over, the Minister of Labor, there and I would volunteer to interpret for them because they, a lot of them didn' ; t speak English. And since 1964 for 32 years I helped them out to where again, I continued to speak my Japanese and learn to speak Japanese, use it for the senior citizens, the first generation Japanese that were getting older and started the Japanese Senior Center in our community and started working with people like, organizations that have training and so on for the seniors in our community. So I' ; ve done a lot of that as a result of my camp experience in Tule Lake and setting up my thinking process to where... And especially today with the political climate the way it is and some of the politicians still talking about using our Japanese American experience, World War II experience as a precedent for taking care of other racial groups like the Muslims and so on. And so I figured, well I must continue to speak out and let people know that, " ; Hey, this kind of thing did happen here in our United States. It is part of our history. We want to make sure that based on that constitution that we do not have this kind of thing repeated again regardless of who they are, what religion they are, what the bisexual nature of, or whatever." ; That the individual rights as guaranteed in our constitution must be taken care of. So that' ; s my message that I try to pass on at least once a month here in Richmond. Anna Takada: Well, thank you. That' ; s, it' ; s definitely being heard. You know, being there last night at that presentation at the Albany Park Library, you know, lots of people are coming out and hearing what you have to say. Ben Takeshita: Good. Yes. Anna Takada: I just have one more, one more question. Ben Takeshita: Okay. Anna Takada: I appreciate you talking about the, about the term and phrase No-No Boy because something that' ; s interesting to me as a yonsei, and hearing how at your time at the JACL, for example, it was almost used as a derogatory word. Ben Takeshita: Yes. Anna Takada: Whereas now in, at least in some of the circles and networks that I work within, it' ; s almost more of a positive thing, you know. And I think young people really kind of catch on to the fact that there was, there was a lot of, of passion and resistance and you know, ironically a lot of loyalty. You know, U.S. Citizens were kind of taking control of their own you know, civil rights to, to take a stand. Ben Takeshita: Mhmm. Anna Takada: So I' ; m just, I' ; m wondering if, you know, so we can have it on the record, how, how would you define or maybe explain the word " ; No-No Boy" ; ? What does that mean as a term to you as someone whose family was kind of categorized in this way? Ben Takeshita: Because of the laws that you know, forbid the Isseis from becoming citizens and own property and so on and because of the experiences that the Kibeis had in Japan about being, trying to be forced into the Japanese Army and resisting that force and also having our own government refuse to acknowledge that citizenship and put all of us into these camps, so-called camps during World War II, I feel that we have to keep you know, making sure that people don' ; t do this again to anybody. And, I don' ; t know. I, I think I lost track of what your question was but... Anna Takada: Just how would you define No-No Boy or that term? Ben Takeshita: Yeah. Well, I would say they were misunderstood, that No-No Boys were misunderstood. And that' ; s my process to try to make sure that many of them did it because they wanted to oppose or why almost one year when the questionnaire came out of being in camp they really felt that, " ; Why are we in here for?" ; You know and then felt really resistant. They didn' ; t, we didn' ; t resist going into camp but then after almost a year in camp with these non-private, privacy affected and so on, family life affected and so on that this was wrong and we didn' ; t have any trial or anything to prove that we did something wrong. So, this was to.... There' ; s still misunderstanding of why these people did that and, and they don' ; t, many of them don' ; t realize that they did it because of resisting or objecting to what the U.S. Government did and not because of being loyal to the Japan or whatever. That loyalty, disloyalty thing is a label that the U.S. Government put on those who answered in the negative or not answered at all and not because of what we had done. And so I want people to understand that, I wouldn' ; t say 100%, but most of them had reasons for answering no, no and it wasn' ; t because of loyalty or disloyalty. It was because they were resisting the fact that the U.S. Government put us into camp regardless of citizenship. Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much again for, for coming in and sharing. Before we completely wrap up are there any last things that you' ; d like to add or anything that I may have missed in this conversation? Ben Takeshita: No, except that you know, all my experiences and so on was all as it relates to our family during World War II. And there are a lot of other experiences, other ways that they voted and so on. And, and that' ; s only my family' ; s experience and what I know of what happened as I remember it and so on. So other families may have different versions of, of their family experience. Anna Takada: Thank you. Sherry and Craig, are there any questions that you have for Mr. Takeshita before we wrap up? Sherry: You referred to some beatings in Tanforan when you were having the mess hall meetings, so were those beatings between internees? You didn' ; t, you didn' ; t hear of beatings of, of MPs of the internees, it was more within the internees that were fighting? Ben Takeshita: You' ; re talking about Topaz? Sherry: The Topaz mess hall meetings after the questionnaire. Ben Takeshita: Yeah, as, I was too young to be involved in that questionnaire itself. So it' ; s... My knowledge of the questionnaire and so on comes from what my brothers told me when I was in Japan and I was talking to my brothers. I, really you know we were kids and we were just going to school and so on. So I know that my brother was involved in a lot of those activities but what they talked about or how those mess hall meetings went on, we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t even, I didn' ; t even go to them. All I know is that they were having these meetings throughout the camp and my brother was involved in going to many of those meetings. Sherry: Okay. And also, in Tule Lake you recall Uncle Spencer being arrested. Were you aware that there was a jail on Tule, at Tule Lake and that there were other people that were detained there before Uncle Spencer got-- Ben Takeshita: No, I didn' ; t, I wasn' ; t aware of it at that time because we didn' ; t know where he was, my brother was taken to. And again, because I was so involved in the Japanese Language school and although my brother was taken away, we didn' ; t know where he was. We were more concerned with where he was and so on. They didn' ; t tell us that they took us to a stockade or that there was a stockade. None of them, they weren' ; t, you know, they didn' ; t keep telling us about they having a stockade. Now, they were trying to destroy that stockade and building. And so we' ; re trying to make sure that it is kept because there is a history of what happened during those times in the World War II. Craig: Yeah, I just want to say I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story and speaking out. And especially your desire that nothing like this ever happen again to, to anybody in the United States. Ben Takeshita: Yes. Yes, that is very important because of the political climate as it is now. It' ; s very important that people understand that it has happened here in our United States, 75 years ago to be sure but still they' ; re talking about using it as a precedent. And so that really made me all the more you know, willing to continue on to make sure that people realize this kind of thing can' ; t happen again, not in our United States. Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much again, Mr. Takeshita. We really appreciate you coming in and sharing. Ben Takeshita: I want to thank the Chicago Japanese, Japanese American Historical Society for giving me this privilege because as, as I keep repeating, I want to make sure that as many people as possible get a chance to hear what happened to us during that period. It wasn' ; t, you know for us kids you know, we had fun playing because there was no school and all that. And a lot of the adults you know, talk about having dance class, dance groups and so on. And they make it sound like they had a lot of fun but, at the same time you know, we got to keep remembering that we were in, in prison and we had no freedom. So we try to, as human beings, we just tried to make the best of it under the circumstances. And, and people think, some, some people will say, you know that, well, they were captured by the Japanese Army in the Philippines and so on and the march that they had to go through and so on. And they, they said, " ; Well, gee, you were fed and you didn' ; t have to eat." ; And so on whereas many of them starved and so on. And they try to compare our experience with the soldiers' ; you know, treatment by the Japanese soldiers and, and try to relate the two and compare and say you know, " ; Well, you were in better shape than they were," ; and that kind of thing. And so, people have to realize that hey, we were American citizens and you know, no American citizen would be, should have been involved by our U.S. Government for this kind of treatment. It should' ; ve been as the Con-- Constitution states by trial, by, by court if necessary, but certainly not arbitrarily by just one president with an executive order, you know. Anna Takada: Thank you so much. Ben Takeshita: Okay. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TakeshitaBen20180615.xml TakeshitaBen20180615.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Sort Priority
8200
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Takeshita, Ben (6/15/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
Ben Takeshita, a nisei, was born in 1930 in Alameda, California and raised in San Mateo, CA with his seven siblings. He describes his father's work prior to World War II, first in farming and later in landscaping and gardening, as well as his own experiences at school and with other Japanese Americans. He recalls traveling to Japan in 1934 with his mother and siblings, and his older brothers' experiences as kibei remaining in Japan to attend school. Twelve years old at the time of Pearl Harbor and Executive Order 9066, he shares his memories of being forcibly removed from his home, the living conditions at Tanforan, Topaz, and Tule Lake, and the controversies that arose over the "loyalty questionnaire" particularly for issei and kibei like his parents and brothers. Due to his parents and brothers answering "no, no" to Questions 27 and 28, the family was labeled "disloyal" and sent to Tule Lake. He discusses the stigma and long-term impact of this treatment on his own life and on a brother who was arrested and subjected to severe psychological abuse. Throughout the interview, he reflects on the injustices committed by the U.S. government against its own citizens, and his commitment to speaking publicly about his experiences to ensure that no other group is ever treated similarly.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/186e2503110f15bcf4d5a3ee5b54588c.png
08b86d269bc8cffd5bd397906f6b4219
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPIsseiAFinalSay.xml
OHMS Object Text
5.4 1975 Issei: A Final Say 0:07:43 JASC_IGP Issei Gerontology Project Films Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Digitized with support from the Gaylord and Dorothy Donnelley Foundation. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. video 1:|23(2)|37(2)|53(2)|65(2)|95(2)|107(2)|123(2) 1:|12(1)|26(14)|38(4)|44(9)|64(5)|72(9)|83(4) English 1 https://vimeo.com/387488712/89a89402d8 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/387488712?h=89a89402d8" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 352" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Japanese Interviewer: あのね、今一番の楽しみはどんなものですか。今一番のたのしみ。 Man in gray hat: まあ全て、仕事も自分も好きでやってるし、楽しいですよ。 Woman in purple shirt: これと言ってありませんけれど、皆さんとこうして話すのが一番たのしい。 Interviewer: 日本語で話されるのが？ Woman in purple shirt: うん Woman in cardigan: 私、今考えておりますのは、やはり私たちの楽しみと言うのは教会ですね。教会に行くこと、 本当に楽しみです。ひとつは、あの--子供たち、もう今大きくなって、孫は増えてまいりますからね。その、何していることが、一番私たちにとって楽しいですね。 Man in straw hat: 毎日が安楽に暮らしており、イエス・キリストを信じることは一番いい事と思っています。自分の思いわずらうことをすてて、人のために祈ること。 Woman in stripes: まあ、日本人がね、こういう風にピクニックしたり、それからもちろんあの--ファミリーがギャザーする、そういうことね。 Woman in white: そうですな、私の一番うれしいことは、あの--毎日健康にくらすことが、感謝ですね。そして子供達も皆仲良くして、あの--よくしてくれますこと感謝しておりますじゃな。 Man in purple: 子供らも、家内も、それから孫らもひ孫も、みな持ってるでしょ。それでこうやって毎日が健康で、過ごせるでしょ。そして楽しく暮らせるでしょ。だからまあ、一番私はうれしいと思いますよね。 Woman in Stripes: 特別--別に今、あの--自分、健康だから-- Man in short sleeves: 別に何も、ねぇ、こういう所におるんだから。ただもう私が--あの--教会に行きたいけど、もうどうすることもでけんですから。 Man in stripes: やはり、日本独特のいいところはですね、いついつまでもやはり、続けていってもらいたいですよね。例えばこの--「父母に孝に、夫婦相和し、朋友相信じ」ということは、確かにいい事と思いますよね。一つの家庭の、家庭を築いてゆく上に一つの根本的な精神じゃないかしら。ああいうことは、やはり日本人としての誇りじゃないかと思いますよね。 Man in gray cap: 何も特別言うことはねぇ、体操（とか）こういうガーデンの仕事もあるしね。 Woman with balloon: 私は、賛美歌うたって、イエス様にお祈りして、イエス様と共に歩くということは一番楽しい。 Man in tie: 何もないですな。ほっといて欲しい、ということ。 Interviewer: おばさん、何かあります？一世としてね、子供さんに、あの--伝えたい事。 Woman in purple shirt: 別にありませんけどね。おばさん、財産も無し、金も無し--。 Interviewer: 何かね、特別、あの--おばさん自身として--。 Woman in purple shirt: ただね、子供をお守したのを、忘れずにおってくれたらいい。それを願っているでしょね。 Woman in cardigan: 私、この一世として、いまここに子供達、居りますでしょ。 ですから今まで私のやってきたことを幾分なりとも子供たちに少しでも教えておきたい。 Interviewer: どういう事？ Woman in cardigan: やはりあの、自分たち親に対することとかね、兄弟に対することとかね、と言うような、そういう風な反面から、ずっと私、いつも子供に少しでも、子供に覚えておいてくれるようにと、思っておりますよ。 Man in blue shirt: 二世は、三世も、アメリカ市民としての義務としても、なるだけなら、出来ることならアメリカに忠誠をつくして、そして、まあ--良き市民となって模範を示して頂きたいと思いますね。同時にまあ、日本人と言うその、大和魂のような心をなるだけあの、心がけていってもらいたい。 Man in short sleeves: 別にいまではね、何も心配することが無し。子供のこと、もう充分してあるから、孫の事も、エブリシング・イズ・オーライ。 Man in stripes: それで二世三世の方々も出来るだけ勉強して、そしてアメリカの各社会に入り込んで行って、大いに活躍して行って頂きたいのが、私の子供はじめ、二世三世に対する希望なんですよ。 Man in cap: まあ、真面目に働く、仕事なんですね、なんでもね、仕事その何からですね。 Man in purple: やはり、一世のつまり良いとこですな。やはり子供らに伝えたいと思いますよね。 Interviewer: どういう事ですか？あの、特別に？ Man in purple: そうですなあ、まあ私は別に教えてはいないですけど、子供らが私らがやってきたところを皆知っていますからね。親が苦労しているのを見て、子供はやはりそれを見てやってきますから私も安心しています。子供に今まで私は、なにもしろとはいわないけれど、みな真面目にやってくれますからな、それで私も安心しとりますからな。 Woman in polka dot apron: ちょっとあの、何か行き詰まってもね、それでもぐにゃっとならないで、直ぐ立ち上がってやっていくようになってもらいたいの。火事に遭っても、泥棒に遭っても、獲られない物を、自分がキープしておくのが、子供や孫とおもいますよ。 Interviewer: What would make you most happy now? Man in gray hat: The work I do I enjoy and take pleasure in it. Woman in purple shirt: I enjoy getting together with friends and talking. Interviewer: In Japanese? Woman in purple shirt: Oh yes! Woman in cardigan: The most pleasure that we have is out association with the church. My children are grown now and I get a lot of pleasure by watching my grandchildren grow up. Man in plaid shirt: I'm happy because my family is everybody is healthy and, you know, especially grandchildren. Man in straw hat: I believe that believing in Jesus Christ is the best thing. Forgetting about one's own troubles and praying for others is the most important thing to do for the people. Woman in stripes: The Japanese getting together at a picnic like this, family get togethers... Woman in white: What makes me most happy is that I am living every day in good health. And that my children all get along well together and they are good to us. Man in purple: I have my wife, children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren, and they have good health and we look forward to each day with enjoyment. That makes me happy. Woman in stripes: I am healthy so that I am alright. Man in short sleeves: The only thing I would like to do is to attend church but that I cannot do... Man in stripes: It could be nice if they retain or cultivated the best of the Japanese tradition. For example: Filial piety towards parents. Man in gray cap: Like physical exercise, like this garden work Woman with balloon: Singing hymns and praying in Jesus Christ. Man in tie: I don't have anything to say... I would like to be left alone. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Interviewer: What is the most important thing you would want passed on to your children or future generations of Japanese. Woman in purple shirt: Well, I don't have any assets of money to leave them. Interviewer: Anything special, from your viewpoint... Woman in purple shirt: I only ask that they don't forget my bringing them up. That's my only desire. Woman in cardigan: As an Issei, I would like to teach my children as much as possible what I have done in the past. Interviewer: What kind of thing? Woman in cardigan: The attitude toward their parents and toward their brothers and sisters, these things which I have been taught, I want them to remember. Man in blue shirt: The Nisei and Sansei... should do their utmost to be good, loyal citizens, but at the same time retain some of their Japanese heritage. Man in short sleeves: I have done all I can for my children and grandchildren, so " ; everything is alright" ; . Man in stripes: I would like them to give priority to education and to going into all phases of social structures in America. Man in cap: To be diligent in whatever work you do. Man in purple: I want to pass on the strong points of the Issei. I never had to say do this or don't do that. Interviewer: What kind of things, in particular? Man in purple: They saw our hardship and struggles. Somehow they are all earnest and hard working. Whenever they are in trouble, instead of crumpling up, I want to know that they can rise again. Woman in polka dot apron: That which cannot be lost by fire, or by theft. That is what I want to give my children and my grandchildren. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPIsseiAFinalSay.xml IGPIsseiAFinalSay.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Issei: A Final Say
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Description
An account of the resource
Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film features Issei (first generation immigrants) responding to questions such as "What would make you most happy now?" and "What is the most important thing you would want passed on to your children or future generations of Japanese?"
ISHRAB