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Dublin Core
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
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write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
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Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Ueunten, JJ
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Wernick, Julie
Flores, Janelle
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WernickJulie_FloresJanelle_20210621.xml
Interview Keyword
Minidoka
Mixed-race
Yonsei
Autoport
Uptown
Japantown
Hoarding
Jewish identity
Holocaust
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/21/2021 Wernick, Julie and Janelle Flores 0:53:35 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Minidoka Mixed-race Yonsei Autoport Uptown Japantown Hoarding Jewish identity Holocaust Wernick, Julie Flores, Janelle Ueunten, JJ video 1:|10(10)|36(1)|46(4)|57(7)|73(10)|85(4)|97(4)|111(2)|124(7)|139(14)|153(2)|163(8)|174(3)|185(3)|195(5)|205(5)|217(9)|225(6)|240(7)|250(3)|260(11)|269(3)|278(7)|289(5)|299(7)|308(11)|318(10)|329(2)|340(10)|352(5)|362(5)|373(5)|381(11)|392(14)|403(15)|413(12)|424(8)|432(7)|438(3)|449(8)|461(6)|471(1)|480(7)|492(14)|504(13)|515(12)|527(12)|539(3)|545(9)|552(4)|560(11)|568(1)|578(15) 0 https://vimeo.com/586956622/ab126a7fdd Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/586956622?h=ab126a7fdd" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Julie Wernick and Janelle Flores are yonsei sisters via their maternal grandfather. Their great-grandfather, Kiyoshi Shimizu, initially settled in Portland, Oregon, where Julie and Janelle’s grandfather and his siblings were born and raised. During World War II, the family was incarcerated at Minidoka. Upon release, the family moved to Cleveland before eventually settling in Chicago. Janelle describes growing up in a four-flat near the business where her grandfather worked as an auto mechanic. A self-described curious child, Janelle recalls family members avoiding the topic of wartime incarceration and reflects on other possible indicators she observed of the trauma they experienced. Younger sister Julie describes learning even less from family members and remembers being frustrated with the minimal amount she learned about incarceration at school. The sisters discuss their decision to travel together to Minidoka in an effort to learn more about their family history and identity, both for themselves and for future generations. JJ Ueunten: Okay, today is June 21st and this oral history interview is being recorded remotely due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten of the JASC Legacy Center, and the interviewees are Julie Wernick and Janelle Flores. This interview is being recorded by the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay, so what is your full name? Julie Wernick: My full name is Julie Kira Wernick. Our, my mom' ; s maiden name is Shimizu. JJ Ueunten: Maybe I' ; ll just ask all of your questions. What is the year of your birth? Julie Wernick: Oh, 1996. JJ Ueunten: And where were you born? Julie Wernick: Chicago. JJ Ueunten: And go to Janelle. What is your full name? Janelle Flores: Janelle Elaine Shimizu Wernick-- Flores. (laughs) It' ; s not Wernick anymore. It' ; s Flores. JJ Ueunten: And what is your year of birth? Janelle Flores: 1980. JJ Ueunten: And where were you born? Janelle Flores: Chicago. JJ Ueunten: I guess either of you or both of you can answer these. Were any members of your family incarcerated during World War II? And if so, what camps were they in? Julie Wernick: Our grandfather was incarcerated along with his brother and sister and his mom and dad. And they were all in Minidoka. JJ Ueunten: And when did your family first come to the U.S.? Janelle Flores: So, I don' ; t remember the exact date, but it was our, actually our grandparents, or-- great-grandparents, sorry. Our great-grandfather, Kiyoshi Shimizu came first. He came to the East Coast. I can' ; t remember if he went to Seattle or straight to Portland? Portland is where our family was relocated from. So my grandfather and his siblings were born in Portland. But our great-grandfather came first, and then eventually he sent for his bride, Tase. I actually don' ; t know her maiden name. But I, there' ; s an age difference between them and I don' ; t know if whether or not they actually had ever met before she came over or if it was an arranged marriage. But that' ; s who came here first. And then my grandfather and his siblings were born in Portland. JJ Ueunten: And when and how did your family come to live in Chicago? Janelle Flores: So what we learned at Minidoka was that our grandfather actually would leave the camp to work. And we didn' ; t find any records that indicated exactly where he went during all of those times. But we know he left more than once while his family, the rest of his family stayed at the camp. Then, I believe that they relocated to Cleveland, Ohio. Is that right, Jules? Julie Wernick: Yeah, I think Cleveland. Janelle Flores: ' ; Cause that' ; s what the records at Minidoka say. But then, we know eventually they ended up in Chicago and they actually bought a four-flat like, graystone in Chicago where the whole family lived. And then they rented out one of the units to another Japanese family that I, I' ; m guessing probably had relocated as well. It wasn' ; t a whole family, by the way. It was just one member. I don' ; t know if she had like other relatives that lived with her when she first started living there. But I remember Mrs. Nishi used to live there in this apartment for a while. And then eventually she moved out into a different house that was closer to the rest of her family. JJ Ueunten: Is, is that like, the like place that you grew up in? Janelle Flores: (nods) Yeah. So I grew up at 1623 West Sunnyside. I was, I guess we lived in that hou... Well, I' ; m pretty sure all of our... Like my parents my-- or my mother and her sisters were all... Like that' ; s the home they were born into. They were raised there. And then I lived there ' ; till I was about 12. And then I moved out with my mom after she got married to Julie' ; s father. My dad, Mr. Wernick. So I' ; m pretty sure... Yeah that was the permanent residence our whole mom' ; s life and her siblings' ; lives. And our grandfather used to work around the block like on the opposite side of the, the... It was a big block. But on the opposite side on Montrose. He used to work at um... Julie Wernick: Autoport. Janelle Flores: Autoport. Yeah, he was a mechanic there. And you know, there were other Japanese men that worked there as well. JJ Ueunten: Cool. Thank you. I know you said your family kind of first settled in Portland when they came to the U.S.? And then do you, do you know anything about what motivated them to immigrate? Janelle Flores: I don' ; t. I do... The only thing I really know about Portland was that they had a dry cleaning business there. So I' ; m guessing it was really just to find a place to settle down, you know, have like a business, raise a family. I' ; m guessing Kiyoshi probably came over first to figure out what was going on. And then he you know, eventually sent for his person when he was ready to like start that family. That' ; s one of my best guesses. But yeah, I know that they had a business. But of course, they had to leave it when they relocated. JJ Ueunten: And do you know, kind of, in Portland, were they part of a Japanese c-- American community that you know of? Janelle Flores: I don' ; t know that. Yeah, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t really know about the neighborhood in Portland. One time I tried to look it up on Google Maps, you know? ' ; Cause you can like see the actual street of where the business was. And like it obviously wasn' ; t there anymore. And there was like a, the street actually had like a larger street like going through it. I don' ; t know if you remember kind of like how the bridge would go over where like Western Avenue is and Belmont. Like it was kinda like that setup, where it' ; s like, you know there was a street that went higher to go faster, I' ; m guessing, over these intersections. So I don' ; t really know. They must have like redone that whole neighborhood ' ; cause I' ; m guessing that' ; s more of like a modern build, you know? So yeah, I' ; m not sure. JJ Ueunten: Thank you. And I think you mentioned that like, some of this like, some of this history you, you just learned. Did you hear kind of any stories like about your family like pre-war, or.... yeah? Janelle Flores: Yeah, I think that they like helped with the business. My uncle Victor, who was the eldest in the family, of the kids, he was actually in college. My grandfather always said that he was more of like the troublemaker. So he didn' ; t, I don' ; t think he went to college, but he did like to work on fishing boats. And he loved fishing. And we do have like some old photos, black and white photos of him like holding giant fish in like Alaska and like, with these like fishermen' ; s gear on. So I' ; m guessing he probably was more of like the adventurer, risk taker? So yeah, but that' ; s all I know. And then our, my great aunt, Tase... No, not Tase, um... Julie Wernick: Kiyoshi? Janelle Flores: No, my aunt... Yaeko. So Auntie Yae I think was like really young. So I think she was like still in school or something, you know, like high school or something. JJ Ueunten: So even though you kind of answered this, when and where was your family incarcerated? Julie Wernick: They were incarcerated at Minidoka in Idaho. But I think they were, they were at like a relocation center before they went to the camp. JJ Ueunten: And, do you know kind of how old, your... around like how old your grandparents were when, when it happened? Julie Wernick: Were they in their late teens? Janelle Flores: Yeah, I think it was like, like teen-- like I think Yae was in her, was a teenager. And I think Victor was in his early 20s, I want to say? I' ; m trying to remember... Yeah they had t... Yeah I think that they were, actually, they were probably yeah, late teens. Like maybe Victor was early 20s? I' ; d have to like look back and find his birthdate. I' ; m not sure. JJ Ueunten: And then did, did you kind of hear any stories about their time in, in camp? Janelle Flores: Okay, so that was always a difficult topic. If-- I was a curious child. And so, if I ever asked a question about it, it was usually ignored, which felt really awkward because I didn' ; t realize that the adults were avoiding, like the topic. Now that I' ; m an adult myself, I realize what was going on. But really that, they were just trying to avoid the topic. The reason why, or the way that I found out that they were actually in the internment camp was my grandmother told me. So my grandmother was not Japanese, had never been interned. And somehow she brought it up or told me I guess when I was old enough, I' ; m assuming. But I don' ; t ever remember the Japanese side of our family ever openly like talking about it. And I would find out some things when she would like start telling some stories in my grandfather' ; s presence. And if she got something wrong or he like wanted to add detail, then he would share something else. So for example, like my grandmother told me you know, it didn' ; t matter like on the day that everybody was evacuated if you had just had a baby, if you were sick in the hospital, if you were old, if you were young. Like you had to leave and you had to go to the camp. So when I was a kid, I thought like that seemed really irrational, even as a kid, that if you had a baby, like why would you leave the hospital and just go to a camp with a new baby? That made no sense to me or made no sense that someone who was sick in the hospital would have to leave the hospital to go to just this random place that may not be able to take care of them. Like that really seemed strange to me. When I' ; m saying--when I' ; m saying when I was a kid, I mean like 8, 9, 10. Like I was pretty small, trying to kinda wrap my mind around what she was sharing. And then she told me that like she tried to describe I think what the camp was like for me. And one time, I remember she got it wrong because then my grandfather corrected her and said, " ; No, we all lived in like one room. If we had to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night because it was so cold, we would just like pee off the porch." ; And that there were, oh I think I must have asked, like why didn' ; t you just like leave? And I remember he said, you know, " ; There were men with guns, like soldiers that were watching us. So we couldn' ; t do that." ; And I thought that was weird too because that seemed very like aggressive. And I was like, " ; But you weren' ; t being dangerous. Why would they need guns?" ; So that was confusing. I don' ; t think I asked those questions though. So he also ended up saying about the actual structures, and how in the bathrooms, the reas-- or they like didn' ; t have walls. And so he said that, all, he said quote unquote, " ; All the women made a stink about it." ; No pun intended. And they had to like build walls so that some of the women could have privacy like when they went to the bathroom. That' ; s all I really remember from things that he may have wanted to like share with me. And then other things I think I just learned probably from like researching some things or looking them up when I could. I did, we do have actually an original Minidoka yearbook. I don' ; t remember how I found it or who found it first. Maybe our mom did. But I think it belonged to my Uncle Victor. And you know I remember looking at every single page of that book the first time that we found it. I was older, and I was probably a teenager, like, maybe in college. I was probably in college. And I remember like just trying to find pictures of our family and there was like a group photo for their block, but I couldn' ; t like find their faces in there. And when we were actually at Minidoka, we could not find like any photos, like nothing out of the ordinary of our family other than their names in like whatever records they had to keep. So there isn' ; t a lot of like imprint from my point of view of their particular history in how they spent their time there. There' ; s definitely not information that we have access to or memories that I can think of where they were telling us how they felt about being there. But I' ; m thinking maybe the avoidance is telling me how they felt about being there. But that' ; s like the most I can remember. Julie Wernick: Our grandfather died when I was pretty young. So I like obviously never talked to him about it. And the stories or, and information I know is mostly from Janelle. Our mom doesn' ; t know like too much about it. I, I don' ; t think she really asked quest, many questions about it growing up. And she said that the first time she learned about the camps was in class in high school. So I, I don' ; t think it was a topic of discussion, really. JJ Ueunten: Julie, do you remember kind of the, when you first kind of found out that your family was incarcerated? Julie Wernick: Yeah. I think I was in high school when I found out. I don' ; t remember how it happened. But my mom told me, I guess. And it didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really like know what it meant at the time. And I wasn' ; t sure like what significance it really had to me. But I do know that I remember my senior year of high school I, we, in my political science class, we only spent like an hour on like learning about the camps and that was the whole unit. And I remember that really like frustrated me. JJ Ueunten: That' ; s a very short unit. Julie Wernick: Yeah. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Do you want to share a little bit about going to Minidoka and maybe kind of how you decided to do that and like what you' ; re hoping for from that? Janelle Flores: So I always wanted to go because I was really curious about like what did this place look like? Like, could we find photos of our family? Like, how can we learn more about this? I felt like when my grandfather passed, like I just was never going to know. You know? After that, I was like, " ; There' ; s no way that I' ; m going to learn more unless I just go." ; So, so I brought the idea up to our mother like a few years ago, like several years ago, and asked like, " ; Would you ever go?" ; And she was like, " ; No, why would I want to do that?" ; So I told her I was like really curious and wanted to see what was there just to understand. And so then this past year, you know, my sister was getting more involved in the Japanese American community in Chicago. And you know, there was a lot going on, just you know, in our like country, right? Where I was like, " ; Well, if there was a time to educate yourself, now is probably the time." ; So I asked Jules if she wanted to go with us, or go with me. And, and I kept thinking... she said yes. And then I kept thinking like we need to document this too. So then I asked a friend of ours, of mine, who I went to elementary school with who does, makes, who has made documentaries in the past like you know, professionally. Like, he doesn' ; t do that now. I was like, " ; Hey, like, would you be interested in just like, following along with us?" ; Because he also is you know sort of like an activist like in like, social justice like around incarceration. And he' ; s not necessarily like practicing really. You know and like, he' ; s in a political position now. So I was just like, " ; Maybe he' ; ll just want to do something a little bit different." ; And he said " ; Sure" ; . So the three of us ended up in Idaho just to figure out like what is this and what can we get from this and you know, what will we discover about our family? And we had this friend with us who could actually you know like help us, kind of guide us in like absorbing a lot of it you know? And I feel like even his need to like walk around and get, capture some really specific spaces kind of like gave us an opportunity too to like get to know the, the camp environment like a little more as well. So yeah. Jules, do you want to share like from your point of view? Julie Wernick: I was also curious to see the camps, but didn' ; t really like have any expectations going into it on what it would be like. And, I... Yeah. I' ; m thankful that we documented it so that we could go back and watch it. And, we didn' ; t like learn much more about our family specifically. But we learned a lot about like how the people in the camp spent their time and like how they, how they tried to make the best out of a terrible situation. And we got to see like the barracks that they stayed in and the, the cafeteria and area. And so it, I, I do feel more connected with my family history now. And I feel like it brought my sister and I just closer too doing this together. Janelle Flores: Can I share one more thing too? Actually two more things. I also feel closer to my sister. And I also think I realized like kind of more about who our family is right? On that side of the family, where like they weren' ; t going to talk about it when they were alive. They weren' ; t going to like teach us. Well, really at the time, it was mostly me. The, the youngest generation, about what had happened. They were going to avoid it. And at least like my auntie, I didn' ; t really grow up around. She ended up staying in Idaho. So her side of the family may be totally different in terms of how much they know and how much they were encouraged to be educated on it. But our side of the family, my uncle Victor and like my grandfather, he, they did not want to like share right? Then when I think about like, how they' ; re not in any of the photos like of the, the groups, the baseball team. That was like, you know like, everyone' ; s favorite pastime you know like to either to watch or to play right? Like I couldn' ; t find any sort of like imprint, right? And that might have been on purpose. Like I think about how many times our grandfather probably left that camp. And didn' ; t really, I didn' ; t really see any you know urgency for him to like record that somewhere. You know like there' ; s no evidence, but we know that happened. Like I realized, like okay, they just did not want that, I feel like, to be their narrative. And that' ; s why we didn' ; t hear it and that' ; s why we don' ; t see it. And you know, I' ; m not sure... You know it would be so interesting to ask, but I' ; m not sure what they really wanted the youngest generation to carry with them about that time or even if they thought about it or if it was too hard to even like broach right? And I think about our mother and how she said, " ; Well, why would I want to do that?" ; You know, So even the generation above us, they didn' ; t really want to talk about it. They didn' ; t encourage us to research it or know more. And even when as older kids we were like, " ; We' ; re going to go do this." ; I mean our mom was interested in hearing about what we learned, but I, she didn' ; t ask to see any of the footage. She, in other words, she still doesn' ; t really want to go, even if she doesn' ; t physically have to go. Like even if it' ; s you know convenient. Like we recorded a lot of it. She hasn' ; t really asked to see it. Like, I kind of feel like I understand now that they did not really want us to remember all of it with them. And I do feel obligated to you know, be educated on it only because I think if I don' ; t, like that story will never be told. You know? So I feel like I did learn more about maybe what our ancestors wanted you know, coming out of that, which was basically for us to like, move forward in a different way and not have to like focus on those things or know too much about those things where we would have to absorb some of that. And I think that that' ; s valuable too. Understanding like what that type of, I guess, trauma. We' ; ll just name it right? As trauma, can do to a whole generation of people, a generation after them. And then even the, you know a third generation, well really fourth, right? ' ; Cause our great-grandparents, it started with them too. How we can actually like absorb all of that and like feel you know like maybe we do need to like move backwards as best as we can just to like keep some of that story and history really in our own family. ' ; Cause it' ; s only an hour in her high school class. You know, I didn' ; t learn about it at all in my high school class. Like you know we' ; re, we' ; re it? JJ Ueunten: Thanks. And Julie, do you have any kind of like reflections on that or anything you want to add? Julie Wernick: Yeah, I feel like the more that I learned about the incarceration camps and the, and how like my peers' ; families talked or didn' ; t talk about it and how it' ; s, there was just kind of like a, a silence amongst a lot of the, the generations that were in the camps, like it, that helped me make more sense of why our mom and her sisters like are the way that they are. ' ; Cause I could see like this kind of like shame and silence being like passed down from generation to generation, beyond just talking about the camps, but in how they deal with like other issues too. JJ Ueunten: Yeah, I guess besides kind of some shame and silence, do you feel like there' ; s other kind of patterns or behavioral things that have kind of gotten passed down? Janelle Flores: So my grandparents were hoarders. The house I grew up in was just packed with who knows what. Like there were rooms you couldn' ; t walk into. My uncle Victor was a hoarder as well. So we' ; re all in the same building. But it' ; s interesting because even like, you know my little brother lives with me now here in Colorado. My bedroom doesn' ; t look like his bedroom. Like you know, we, we were in the same house, we' ; re the same family, but we like create our spaces in the way that we need to you know, find comfort in them. The house I grew up in, that four-flat graystone, like there were rooms in that building like you couldn' ; t go into ' ; cause there was just so much stuff in them. And not necessarily organized. It' ; s not like everything was in piles and you couldn' ; t just walk in. Like there were some like, things had fallen over, stuff on top of other stuff. Like I, I don' ; t know like the psychology behind that in this case. Like, I' ; m sure we could make assumptions about why that was. But like I know that that' ; s you know, a sign of some mental health needs not being met. And so I' ; m thinking like the hoarding was definitely a result of probably some of that trauma. I mean I couldn' ; t even guess. Like, maybe my grandmother had something to do with that too, you know, even though she d-- was not interned. She was not a Japanese-American. But I do remember when I was a kid, there like was a moment where she like was like forcing us all to clean up a few of the rooms in the apartment we lived in where we were you know, washing things. And like, I mean there was like, you know like, mouse droppings, signs of living things, living in this like hoarded mess, that was like unsanitary right. So I remember like, she forcibly like made a few of us, like me, my mom, and I think my aunt was there too, like help her clean up all this stuff. So I' ; m thinking that she probably did not like that. And so I' ; m guessing that it you know, was the Japanese side of our families who didn' ; t really address like what was going on with all of that. JJ Ueunten: Thank you. Yeah. Definitely feel free to answer or not, but are there kind of things that like you see in yourselves that you feel like are, are like related to what your family experienced and, then maybe also kind of like how, yeah, how you think about that or... Janelle Flores: Here. I' ; ll go first. So one of the things my grandfather said to me when I was a kid was, I was the black sheep of the family. And I don' ; t know why he said that. But to me, my grandfather was so funny and like so kind. He was like my, one, like really my favorite person to be around. There was just something calming about him that I gravitated to maybe ' ; cause he didn' ; t tell me what to do all the time, more than other people in the house. I' ; m not sure. But he definitely was so interesting to me. And then he had all these friends, like all his mechanic buddies at the auto shop like around the block. And I used to go there after school like when I was in first grade and kinda sit there until he was done with work. And then I would go home, you know? So, and I think that because I like value him and I think about you know... It' ; s interesting ' ; cause when I was younger, I thought that you know, he married this white woman who, nobody else did. Like my Auntie Yae married someone from the camp and stayed in Idaho. And then my Uncle Victor like never got married. He was sort of like a hermit type of person, you know? But, which is another sign, I feel like, of probably some trauma. Right? Like he didn' ; t have any friends. He like rarely ever left the house. I talked to him though. I felt close to him as well. But I do, like I used to think like, " ; Man, my grandfather like did do stuff that wasn' ; t like what everybody else chose to do." ; And I always kind of like thought that that spirit was like living inside of, of me a little bit because you know, my father, my biological father is actually Mexican. I' ; m coming from this like white and Japanese household. Like even I am like this product of like sort of like a rebellious like you know relationship ' ; cause my parents had me when they were teenagers. Like, I, I just always thought that like maybe I was a like black sheep too kinda? Where I was like not like everybody else you know? Like literally, like I' ; m not like... My physical features, like I look different right? I' ; m, I got a lot of personality. Like I feel more extroverted than like the family I was growing up with. Like I feel like maybe I was a little bit different. And then I think that that kind of motivated me to like just be... Just like, it, it' ; s okay for me to have, like what' ; s you know, some people refer to as a " ; strong personality" ; right? I' ; m gonna ask questions, I' ; m curious, I' ; m gonna to try to find out. I' ; m not always going to just do what everybody wants, you know? Because I want to know more. I want to be able to like function in a healthy way. I also feel like I' ; m different from like my mom even and like her sisters, like my aunts. Because I feel like I need to tell this story. I like, I want to respect my grandfather. My great-uncle Victor raised me essentially. Like he, you know I had a young, very young parents. So he was another adult in my home where I could just go over to his apartment and he would watch me. Like I respect them so much that I feel like I need to, you know, my active I guess like organized rebellion is just to continue telling the story and keep myself interested and not you know avoid it right? So I can see like in those ways like how I' ; ve intentionally been you know, make, made choices based on my family history and like my experience with those people. But I also think too that there' ; s probably a lot of trauma that I had to live through like with my mother and you know like our sister is correct in saying sometimes our mother likes to avoid some conflicts or like talking about things that seem really intense or you know tough conversations. She doesn' ; t necessarily like to have those or can' ; t comfortably have those. And so you know I' ; m thinking I probably had to learn along the way how to be able to have tough conversations right? Like I' ; ve intentionally done the work to get to this place where I can meet someone and just you know admit like how our family history has affected us. But I' ; m pretty sure as a younger person, maybe I, you know I was... Like people would describe me as quiet and shy, which is I think probably how they would describe our mother. So I think I' ; ve like, like tried to figure out how to grow just to be more confident in being able to talk about things like this. Julie Wernick: It' ; s hard for me to say like what qualities I have from my grandparents on my mom' ; s side because I just like didn' ; t know them well. But I do also feel like an obligation to, to tell their, like learn as much as I can about their story and like educate people around me about it. Just because the story will get lost if we don' ; t talk about it because it, it is barely documented. And, and like the issue of, of like violent displacement and incarceration has been, has, was also part of my, my dad' ; s mom' ; s history as a, a Holocaust survivor. So it just feels like a issue that I like need to fight extra hard against like to honor their, their histories. JJ Ueunten: Do you want to say a little bit about kinda... Yeah about like what fighting like incarceration...(inaudible) Julie Wernick: Wait, you got kinda quiet. I can' ; t hear it. JJ Ueunten: If, if you wanted to kind of say what like fighting like incarceration and like violent displacement that kind of is on both sides of your family like looks like for you, or... Julie Wernick: It has meant like making or finding like Japanese American community and Jewish community and, and like learning from others in the community and like building solidarity with other people who are going through this like this kind of oppression and just like yeah, asking, like my sister said, asking like the tough questions to others and to myself and like speaking up when I can. JJ Ueunten: Thank you. Janelle Flores: I think it' ; s interesting too that we have this other like example in our family. Our grandmother who was a refugee of the Holocaust. And on that Jewish side of the family, like they tell the story. You know, like it is totally a norm to tell your story, especially if you need to talk about like what happened during World War II right? And you know like, we even have Passover where it' ; s a tradition as a whole family to sit and gather and have dedicated formal time to be able to retell some of that story. So for us, I think it' ; s interesting, like my sister brought it up, that you know we have these examples of you know some historical traumas around like people you know being threatened and you know violence and being incarcerated, and you know we know that it' ; s okay to tell the story. It' ; s just that within our Japanese community, it' ; s not as easy. It' ; s not a norm, not yet, right? So, and you know we' ; ve lost like those people who have like you know the, the like, direct story to tell, right? But, like I guess in a way, we just feel like we need to make the best of what we do have to be able to talk about that. So I' ; m thinking that like being exposed to our grandmother who is able to talk about her leaving Luxembourg and you know having to go to the Dominican Republic and living there and what that was like and like what happened with her family. And like just you know having that example has helped us like understand how important it is to, to know and to be able to like talk to each other about what happened. JJ Ueunten: So, oh, I did want to talk a little bit...anything you like...Chicago and then...getting that four-flat...Any other things about post-war either in Chicago or Cleveland that you know about that you want to share? Janelle Flores: Okay. I think you asked is there anything else about post-war Chicago that we could share? JJ Ueunten: Yeah. I' ; m sorry. Sometimes the audio on this computer is not so good. Yeah either Chicago or Cleveland or any kind of post-war Midwest kind of experience. Janelle Flores: So one thing that I thought was really interesting was like the last time I had joined your group for a workshop. Like, there was a reference to Japantown. And I was like, " ; Japantown? Where' ; s Japantown?" ; Like I, I was like, like I would go to Japantown all the time if I knew that there was a Japantown in Chicago. And that' ; s like my first thoughts like processing this reference right? And then there was more talk about where exactly that was. And then it was like, " ; Oh, that was our neighborhood." ; Like I had never occurred to me that our neighborhood was Japantown. Like I grew up in Japantown. Like I had never thought that in my whole life. Like I am Chicago, born in the city, not the suburbs. Like publicly educated you know like, runnin' ; through alleys and stuff when I was a teenager, like taking the train everywhere, you know like out and about right? Like, love my city and like try to get to know my city as best as I can. And how did I not know that I grew up in Japantown? And then I started thinking about it you know ' ; cause it' ; s not like Chinatown. Like I know where Chinatown is. I know that when I get there, I know when I' ; m there. It looks a certain way. Like there, they you know, it' ; s freely like expressing its culture right? Same with like Little Village. I know when I' ; m in Little Village. Like it' ; s freely expresses its culture like within that neighborhood. I never thought that, even though I grew up in it, that that neighborhood was like a Japantown. And so like I started thinking back to you know all the places that I had gone as a kid, the JASC, you know especially around holiday time or like the summer rummage sale like for teriyaki and udon. You know like that was a ritual for us in our community. And then we also like went to the grocery store, which on Clark Street. And then you know there were other like Toguri' ; s like on Belmont. like I was like, " ; I' ; ve been going to these places the whole time. And I didn' ; t realize the reason why they' ; re there is because this is the community, the Japanese community of Chicago." ; And I wish that you know like I had understood that better because maybe we could have like kept it that way, you know? But our friend who, his name' ; s Jose, who did this documentary with us, asked me a really great question, which he was like, " ; Do you think that the assimilation of like these relocated families was successful?" ; And I had never been asked that before. But then after like going to Minidoka and experiencing everything and then reflecting on that idea that nobody had ever advertised in the city that this neighborhood was the Japanese community that I like realized like, " ; Yeah, assimilation was successful." ; My grandfather married a white woman. Like we, you know, the family, like the other generation of my aunts like and my mother like became middle class. They left that neighborhood and moved to other spaces. You know like that neighborhood is not... Like those places I mentioned, like Toguri' ; s is gone. The Japanese grocery store, I can' ; t even remember the name of it, on Clark is gone. I have a friend who' ; s Japanese too. And they used to have the jewel, their family used to have the jewelry store, Frank' ; s like Jewelry on Clark Street as well. Like that' ; s gone. Like I just realized like, assimilation worked. Like, all these people were like introduced back into these communities, but we didn' ; t like survive. Like our culture didn' ; t survive those places and got dispersed. And I don' ; t know. I was just like, how did that happen? Like I loved, I love being Japanese. You know like I liked these places in my communit... I' ; m so grateful that JASC was there, or is still there. But I just, it, like it happened to us you know? And I don' ; t know how it happened. It just did. JJ Ueunten: Thank you. Julie, did you kind of grow up going to like Japanese places or with any kind of Japanese community? Julie Wernick: No, I don' ; t even think I knew I was Japanese for, I don' ; t know, probably maybe until late in elementary school. It yeah, I did, I don' ; t think I was really told. Yeah. So no, I didn' ; t really grow up with that. I, I did have like a lot of Asian and like Asian American friends growing up and I like felt very like, very like comfortable with their families and would like eat dinner with them and, all the time. Like my mom would make Japanese foods. And so that was like I guess part of the culture. But, but it didn' ; t, it still didn' ; t occur to me that like I, like I was Japanese. Yeah I don' ; t think I realized until later on, like probably fifth or sixth grade that I was Japanese. And I was going to say about the, about Japantown, and what my sister was talking about. When I, I think my first connection in Chicago with the JA community happened when I was at the JASC for a, a like joint Shabbat dinner with the Jewish Council on Urban Affairs. And it was like my first time being in a space that was Jewish and Asian, I guess, I mean aside from being with my family. And, and a, a community member was like asking me about my background and my family. And I told her that, that our grandfather worked at Autoport and then like a light bulb went off. And then she was like, " ; Oh, Autoport." ; And then she just like started naming all these people that my grandfather hung out with. And then I brought that information back to my mom and then that got her talking more about my grandfather. So yeah, even though there wasn' ; t like a, a formal Japantown, like these, there were like really strong relationships and still a community. JJ Ueunten: Yeah I feel like I could just ask more... Now? Oh okay cool. --Like an hour, and so you know I feel like I could definitely ask more. But I wanted to see if there' ; s like stuff that you want to make sure to share that you didn' ; t get a chance to before we close. Janelle Flores: I think the last thing I will share... And Julie, you can stay on too you know if you want to. But the last thing I will share is like I worry about my daughter. She doesn' ; t know these things. She doesn' ; t have that older generation to teach her like I did. You know I grew up with my grandfather. He was like, my grandfather and my uncle were my male figures. Like I, my biological father, I didn' ; t really like know him well. He was not in my life. Like those were my father figures. My uncle Victor and my grandpa Jimmy. And like I just like worry about like her knowing those things. And you know we had tofu on the table like every night. Like that was a norm. You know, that doesn' ; t happen in our house. And you know all those things matter. Like the food, the relationships, knowing the neighborhood, like those things are not there anymore. So I just hope that you know, I eventually teach her in a healthy way like who she is and the history. And you know maybe she' ; ll carry it forward too whenever you know the day comes where I can' ; t anymore. So yeah, just hoping to make sure I' ; m a good role model in that way for her. Okay see you, I, I' ; m going to go. But Jules, do you want to stay on? Julie Wernick: I don' ; t have much more to add. I just want to thank you JJ for documenting our stories. JJ Ueunten: Yeah, thank you so much. It was really, it was really great to, to get to hear some of it. And yeah, thank you so much. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WernickJulie_FloresJanelle_20210621.xml WernickJulie_FloresJanelle_20210621.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
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Title
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Wernick, Julie and Janelle Flores (6/21/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Julie Wernick and Janelle Flores are yonsei sisters via their maternal grandfather. Their great-grandfather, Kiyoshi Shimizu, initially settled in Portland, Oregon, where Julie and Janelle’s grandfather and his siblings were born and raised. During World War II, the family was incarcerated at Minidoka. Upon release, the family moved to Cleveland before eventually settling in Chicago. Janelle describes growing up in a four-flat near the business where her grandfather worked as an auto mechanic. A self-described curious child, Janelle recalls family members avoiding the topic of wartime incarceration and reflects on other possible indicators she observed of the trauma they experienced. Younger sister Julie describes learning even less from family members and remembers being frustrated with the minimal amount she learned about incarceration at school. The sisters discuss their decision to travel together to Minidoka in an effort to learn more about their family history and identity, both for themselves and for future generations.
Date
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2021-06-21
Format
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Oral History Project
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9685b047c4291590d7d8ed203a1d7ba9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Ueunten, JJ
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ozawa, Alexander
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzawaAlexander20210624.xml
Interview Keyword
Mixed-race
Manzanar
Tule Lake
Fort Sill
Activism
Nikkei Uprising
Towata, Arthur
Family Separation
Death in Camp
Northwest Suburbs
Tenkatsu Restaurant
Intergenerational Trauma
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/24/2021 Ozawa, Alexander (6/24/2021) 0:39:49 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Mixed-race Manzanar Tule Lake Fort Sill Activism Nikkei Uprising Towata, Arthur Family Separation Death in Camp Northwest Suburbs Tenkatsu Restaurant Intergenerational Trauma Ozawa, Alexander Ueunten, JJ video 1:|20(3)|37(14)|50(7)|64(5)|79(12)|95(11)|108(15)|130(5)|140(8)|152(12)|167(15)|180(8)|196(6)|210(5)|224(1)|237(7)|249(6)|263(7)|277(16)|289(1)|301(1)|311(5)|324(10)|335(5)|346(12)|359(5)|370(2)|381(4)|394(8)|405(7)|417(12)|430(2)|444(12)|462(8)|476(7)|486(6)|499(7)|512(14)|525(5) 0 https://vimeo.com/810339296/91436717f0 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/810339296?h=91436717f0" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Alexander Ozawa is a mixed-race Japanese American born and raised in Chicago's Northwest suburbs. His family’s history during World War II includes incarceration at Manzanar, Tule Lake, and Fort Sill. Post-incarceration, while making their way back to the West Coast from the East Coast, the family settled in Chicago after encountering a large and supportive Japanese American community. In this interview, Alexander discusses family members' reluctance to discuss their wartime experiences, his own experiences growing up mixed-race in a predominantly white community, and his motivations for political activism and solidarity work. He reflects upon his " ; othered" ; identity, instances of prejudice from his youth, and fond memories of attending the annual Ginza Festival. Finding connections both between and within generations, he expresses an appreciation for community and for his peers. JJ Ueunten: Today is June 24th, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is JJ Ueunten and the interviewee is Alexander Ozawa. This interview is being recorded by the JA-- JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay. What is your full name? Alexander Ozawa: My full name is Alexander James Ozawa. JJ Ueunten: What' ; s your year of birth? Alexander Ozawa: I was born in 1991. JJ Ueunten: And where were you born? Alexander Ozawa: I was born in Park Ridge, Illinois. JJ Ueunten: And were any members of your family incarcerated during World War II? Alexander Ozawa: Yes, they were. JJ Ueunten: Okay. And if so, what camps were they in? Alexander Ozawa: I' ; m not entirely sure what camps everyone was in. I know for certain that some family members were in Manzanar, Tule Lake and Fort Sill. JJ Ueunten: And, when did your family first come to the U.S.? Alexander Ozawa: Not exactly sure when all of my family came to the U.S. I know it was before my great-grandmother was born in Hawaii. I think that was the previous generation, was born in Japan and had immigrated to the United States. But I know since then some other family members have come from Japan in the previous two generations. JJ Ueunten: And when and how did your family come to live in the Chicago area? Alexander Ozawa: I think it was after World War II and relocation from the internment camps. I know most of my family was relocated to the East Coast. I think it might have been New York. And then they were put on a train out there, and then they wanted to make their way back to California where they were before the camps and I think on the way back from the East Coast to the West Coast, you know, just financially couldn' ; t make it back. So I think once they got to Chicago, my understanding is that there was already an existing Japanese American community here you know that had like, wasn' ; t quite as affected as my family was on the West Coast and a lot of other Japanese Americans were. So I think they met a lot of people here and end up settling and staying. JJ Ueunten: Oh, thank you. Yeah. So I know you mentioned some of the, some of the places that your family was incarcerated in. Do, have you heard kind of any stories about any of, any of those? Alexander Ozawa: Some stories. Because I know from, there' ; s a bit of a generational gap too, of who was incarcerated. So I know my great-grandmother and her generation, along with some of the much younger children that would be like my grandfather' ; s age, were in the camps. But then my grandma, her eldest brother were in Japan at the time, going to school and living with family and friends while the war was happening. So there' ; s a little bit of gap in my understanding of what the experience was like because some of them were so little and a lot of them were older and I didn' ; t get to spend a lot of time with them before they passed to hear stories directly from them. But it sounded like from people that were a lot younger in the camps, that it was a lot of like childhood absence of things like you get to do as a kid. One of my uncles, he went on to be an artist and created a lot of work that was informed by his experience growing up in Manzanar and just, you know, it wasn' ; t the environment that I feel like children should be in anywhere from the sounds of it. Not getting to play with other kids or playing in a limited capacity, not getting together in community and have like the same foundational structure and just kind of feeling... It, I know there was like a feeling of lonesomeness in a way, or like, you know, just absence. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Did, did your uncle who was an artist and, and kind of made work about it, talk about that to you? Or have you like seen his art or how, how do you know what you know? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, that was, that uncle' ; s, Arthur Towata and he did an exhi-- a whole art series on Manzanar, which he brought back I think you know, probably with, like about 20 years ago to the site you know, and brought some of the works there and brought back to California and showed them in other places. But I know he' ; s written several, you know, small pieces and been interviewed about the work where a lot of the colors and things like that are informed by like what the space looks like, where there' ; s you know, a lot of use of like large black blocks in it you know, that represent like the buildings, but also kind of figuring out later on that there' ; s a, a draw to painting like butterflies and dragonflies and a lot of things, you know, like wildlife and insects you see around the camps that as a kid like, is whimsical and you' ; re playing with you know, in the place of like being able to play with other kids in the same way. So it seemed like there' ; s this like, you know, a really long lasting emotional connection in creating things. JJ Ueunten: Mhmm. So he was in Manzanar, like do you know other kind of specific family members that were there? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, my grandfather, George Towata, he was in Manzanar too. He was younger, so I think he was quite young when he was in the camps with great-grandmother. Other family members from my grandmother' ; s side, I' ; m not sure exactly where they were located, but my understanding is it was likely Manzanar? And then I know some people were moved to Tule Lake and there was some family separation just between you know, who like, a lot of the children were U.S. citizens, and then some of the parents were not. So I know some people were moved, grandfather' ; s father was moved to Fort Sill, and then I think that was the last time they ever saw him was then. JJ Ueunten: Do you know, do they kind of know what happened to him or no? Alexander Ozawa: No. I think this is where I' ; m not sure, and I, and it isn' ; t talked about much, I, I don' ; t, what I do know is that there isn' ; t a lot known about his death at Fort Sill, but the understanding is that his life was taken by a soldier, a prison guard, and his remains were never returned to the family, and I don' ; t think details were ever given to the family about what happened. JJ Ueunten: Wow. Alexander Ozawa: So not a lot of recognition. JJ Ueunten: Do you kind of know anything about people moving to Tule Lake or the circumstances around that? Alexander Ozawa: I, I do not. I' ; m not sure when, but I think that some of the family was moved from Manzanar to Tule Lake and I' ; m not, I' ; m not sure why. JJ Ueunten: Thank you. I know you mentioned your great-grandmother was in, born in Hawai' ; i. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Any kind of pre-war things that you know about that you want to share? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know a lot about before the war. I do know that my great-grandmother, they were in Hawaii and they had moved to like the Los Angeles area and were settled there and you know, had a business, had a home before everyone was moved, and they lost all of it at that time. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Yeah, so you mentioned that your, your family like, some of your family like went from camp to the East Coast and then kind of, on their way back to West Coast, like settled here in Chicago. Yeah, anything else that you kind of want to say about that or things that you' ; ve heard about that experience? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know the specifics of what the experience was like for my family to be moved from the camps to the East Coast or what it was like trying to get back to what home was on the West Coast in California. But my understanding is that when they came across Chicago, I think adding to how tough the situation was, you know and probably how heartbreaking it was financially, but also emotionally and you know for so many reasons that the community in Chicago seems like it was really supportive for people. The Japanese community specifically in Chicago like really helped them out a lot and they realized that there' ; s people here you know, that were supporting one another. So I think you know, on being able to find another place that wasn' ; t as hostile as California, I think was a big draw to Calif-- staying in Chicago, but also you know, finding community seemed to be a big part of it, so, I know they became pretty rooted in you know, the area around here too, having, I know my dad always talked about when he was little, he' ; d worked, they had a little tofu factory, so... I can' ; t remember. I think it was Halsted and Aberdeen... I want to say? And then I remember him telling stories about like working there, but I know they had like started a few businesses and I think tried different things. They had a dry cleaners too, which wasn' ; t too far away. And then I know they also, my great-grandmother and my great-grandfather on the Tanaka side, they had a Japanese restaurant, I think it was called Tenkatsu, where my great-grandma worked in front and my great-grandpa worked in the kitchen in the back. JJ Ueunten: Do you know if that was kind of in like Lakeview area too? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, really, really nearby because they all grew up by, I think my dad grew up on Broadway and Barry over there, so not too far away. So it all, it was all pretty nearby to this area. JJ Ueunten: And yeah you, and so your family' ; s pretty much been here, and then you were born in Park Ridge? Yeah. When did they kind of move? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, my, me and my sister were born at Lutheran General Hospital in Park Ridge, Illinois. My dad grew up in Chicago. My mom, who is Caucasian, she grew up in Pekin, Illinois, in centr-- the Central Illinois area. They both met, I think around college and then had both lived in the city for a long time, I think kind of around this area too, around a lot of family that still lived in Chicago. And then before, me and my sister were born in 1989 was when my sister Sarah was born. I was born in 1991. Few years prior to that, they moved out to Prospect Heights, Illinois, and then that' ; s where, where we grew up. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. On, on the form, you mentioned you might be comfortable talking a little bit about the Redress movement. Was your family in-involved in that at all, do you know? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know if they were involved in organizing or any part of the legislation, but I do know that they received reparations and I don' ; t know to what extent, you know, how many people received it. Yeah, not, not very much talked about, but it is something that I know happened that my great-grandmother received it, and then I' ; m not sure to what capacity everyone else also received it for like, the kids... I, but I don' ; t think they were involved in the organizing to-- for Redress. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. And you said they don' ; t talk much about like whether like it meant something or anything like that? Alexander Ozawa: No, not, not so much. I, I feel like it did, but that' ; s also I think, my own assumption that any apology and you know, something does matter and make a difference. But yeah, it, it' ; s not, it hasn' ; t been talked about much with me or my sister to our understanding. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Maybe... I' ; m kind of curious about, it sounds like your family had a lot of kind of Japanese American community here in Chicago. What kind of was your experience growing up? Yeah. Did, did you kind of have connection to Japanese American community? Alexander Ozawa: I think I did have a connection to the Japanese American community, maybe in a more assimilated way though. I grew up really close to all my family who was Japanese American around the Chicagoland area, so they' ; ve always kind of been like an anchor. You know, we always see each other regularly throughout the year, but also like being really little, I remember going to Ginza and that was always like a part of summer. Like summer was associated with like going to Ginza and also just having some activities like practicing Aikido you know, and having some, some smaller like activity based community that was culturally tied, but me and my sister didn' ; t grow up speaking Japanese. We knew maybe a few words when we were really little enough to like say some things we wanted, but never enough to have a conversation and you know, develop into being bilingual in that way. We didn' ; t attend Japanese school, and I think that was more of a conscious decision on, on my dad' ; s part. JJ Ueunten: What, can you say a little bit more about that decision? Alexander Ozawa: I don' ; t know. We, we' ; ve never talked about why we didn' ; t like go to a Japanese school. I think some of it might have been like access too, like for you know, just signing up for it, where it was too, you know what accessibility would work for my folks, but I think... I think a part of it like is my own assumption that it' ; s like kind of protective to just be more American and less Japanese, which you know, is, is a way to keep yourself safe in the face of discrimination and adversity. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Let' ; s see. Well, I' ; m, I' ; m curious, did your dad at all speak Japanese? Alexander Ozawa: No, I don' ; t think so. He definitely doesn' ; t now. (laughs) And I know his sister, my, my aunt she, Amy Ozawa, she understands a bit and can speak a little bit, but I think in that generation, there' ; s a few people that are bilingual, but people don' ; t actively speak it as their, their language at home, I don' ; t think. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. You' ; ve talked a little bit about how kind of a lot things weren' ; t necessarily like discussed about the incarceration. I was wondering if you kind of see any changes of that over the generations, like certain generations being like more or less willing or wanting to talk about it? Alexander Ozawa: I see a difference in wanting to talk about incarceration with younger generations. I feel like a lot' ; s happening with like my peers, like within the group Nikkei Uprising. I feel like having those spaces where people want to talk about it and it feels like healing and in a way to like learn a lot more about ourselves and also history. Within my family, I, I do feel like the older generations that experienced it, I think there' ; s a lot of unaddressed trauma from it and... A, a sense that it' ; s in the past and there' ; s nothing to do to fix it, so why bring back the pain? And it' ; s kind of difficult to bring it up, like not wanting to cause you k-- painful emotions and feelings and memories and a lot of hardship, but also wanting to know more, kind of makes it difficult to figure out like you know, how, how to learn that family history. But as I' ; m getting older, I think I' ; m asking you know, my aunt, my dad and certain people a lot more questions about what happened, but also kind of talking about it in the sense of we' ; re still going through a lot of those things too with you know, the way oppression looks in this country now. And I think opening up that conversation through like modern politics and events is... It, it' ; s a different way of talking about it rather than just saying, " ; What was that like?" ; ' ; cause I think a lot of people don' ; t want to talk about it, or they' ; re not willingly bringing up the conversation. So I think figuring out, like, it' ; s just hard to ask sometimes. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Are, are you finding, like when you ask about it in terms of like things that are happening currently, yeah, how does that kind of change the conversation, or maybe the willingness? Alexander Ozawa: I think, I think a lot of times it like changes the conversation into like looking at, I think one thing that sticks out is talking about Japanese American incarceration and why that' ; s connected to child detention and you know separation of families and immigrant centers in the Southwest and throughout the country. That looking at like those policy and government decisions in a different way. I feel like by having like an empathetical approach to it and then looking back at like, you know, those things did happen to people we know, like some people that are still alive, that are close to us. JJ Ueunten: Are there kind of behavioral patterns that you see in yourself or other people in, in your family that you think are, are or could be connected to kind of, your family' ; s wartime experiences? Alexander Ozawa: I think I' ; ve probably inherited a lot of like personality and behavioral traits from my family. I think we share a lot of the same, same things. Yeah, with avoiding, trying to avoid being too personal, I think there' ; s a lot of lingering scarcity and like need for stability and security that I think comes directly from being, you know, losing your home, your business before relocation and forced detention during the camps. That still kind of exists now. I think from, in a way, being aware that a lot of things are necessities and having things is a privilege too, but wanting to like hold onto your things. I think a lot of times that becomes you know, where... More placed importance on ownership of property, you know, and seeing the value of like, you know, what the cost is to, to keep something or to like achieve something or reach something. I think there' ; s a lot of... Yeah a, a lot of inherited trauma for, for you know, just maintaining resources, which sometimes I feel like can be equated with hoarding and having too many things, but that kind of recognizing that that comes from somewhere. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. I guess like in, in addition to kind of like the trauma or maybe some hard things, like are, are there also kind of like resilience things that you see kind of passed down? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, I think... I' ; d, I' ; d say everyone in my family' ; s pretty tough. (laughs) Yeah, I, I think everyone' ; s really hardworking too, and values that like in a way that what' ; s, I don' ; t know if it' ; s from what happened, but everyone has like, I know that has raised me is incredibly hardworking and diligent and determined. So I think there' ; s a lot of resilience in that, but also looking at... You know, I think a lot of people weren' ; t broken by the experience and decided they weren' ; t going to be broken by it, and you know use that stubbornness to like kind of hold onto the power they had over what they were going to do with their own lives. JJ Ueunten: I wanted to ask too, if, if you wanted to share a little bit about your experiences being like mixed. And yeah. I don' ; t know how you see kind of your, your family' ; s different identities kind of showing up for you or anything around that. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah that' ; s a hard question. It, being, being mixed race is really weird, and I think it' ; s really complicated, and I' ; m still trying to figure it out. I' ; m you know, 29 years old and it still doesn' ; t make complete sense to me for identity, and, you know, just sense of self. I, it, there is a part of it where... I think there' ; s a lot of imposter syndrome no matter what, in lots of different capacities. You know, I' ; m trying to think of how to explain this without like going into, like it' ; s just such an intersectional like issue. I feel like the, that not feeling fully Japanese or not feeling fully white is kind of difficult because I do feel like it' ; s, growing up, it' ; s like, well, what lunch table do you sit at? And not speaking Japanese, not being culturally Japanese, but also ethnically not being either or is a little bit difficult. But at the same time, I feel like that a lot of those conflictions have made it easier to understand and like come to just better thinking about what it' ; s like to be a person and that like, how made up races and how it' ; s just a tool of like white supremacy to pit people against each other from not really knowing like, from not being able to choose a side. Yeah, it' ; s, it' ; s something that was really difficult being a kid, and I think now it' ; s still something that' ; s a little confusing to navigate, but, but still something like I' ; m always thinking about. It' ; s not something I think that' ; s ever going to be concretely decided on. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Well, I, I did also kind of want to ask, I, I know you' ; re like pretty involved in certain political things, and I wanted to ask, like, I think you touched on it a little before, but like how, if you see kind of your family' ; s incarceration history or any other parts of the, of your family' ; s history like kind of informing that? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah, I think... I think my family' ; s history has definitely informed my politics, but not necessarily influenced my activism. I don' ; t know if this is common with like other Japanese American families, but we, a lot of the more conservative people, they don' ; t talk about politics quite as much. While, me or my sister, a lot of my peers, we like to talk about politics and issues and have difficult discussions. And I think a lot of times that with the older generation, we' ; re not necessarily having difficult discussions. And I' ; m not sure exactly why. I have my own guesses for why that might be, but I think the experience of what my you know, great-grandparents, my grandparents, and my parents have gone through definitely informs why I want to be politically active and just looking at, I feel like history gives a better lens for what' ; s happening now in what we can do. JJ Ueunten: Let' ; s see. Yeah, I guess, yeah, I' ; m just curious if, if there' ; s anything that like, we haven' ; t touched on that you want to share that feels important? Alexander Ozawa: Oh, I don' ; t know. JJ Ueunten: That' ; s totally fine. Let' ; s see. Okay, c-can we pause it? [Break] All right. Can you share a little bit about your experiences growing up in Park Ridge? Alexander Ozawa: Yeah. So me and my older sister, Sarah, were born in Park Ridge and grew up in Prospect Heights, which is about 30 minutes northwest of Chicago, still in Cook County. Growing up was really great, had really great parents and they like really provided and did so much for us that like we had like the essential like American kid like childhood. I mean we got to play sports and get into like arts and activities and really explore and figure out like what we liked as people and what like drew us into our curiosities. Like our parents were both like really great at like providing that environment for us, and you know like I think having a strong like family unit, you know there was a lot of like difficulty growing up and like going through our own things, but always felt supported by them. I think you know going to school and being around a lot of other kids, it was a very white area, and I think I didn' ; t realize how you know segregated and different it was for different people. Just growing up in a middle class community and being mixed race, being half white, half Japanese, just kind of thinking I was one of the white kids you know, and it was never the sort of thing of thinking that like I am different and realizing as you get older that like you are treated differently for reasons that you don' ; t fully understand as a kid, but become more apparent and a lot clearer as you become older and look back on it. And I think a lot of that was really hard growing up, is just being othered and being treated in a way that is somewhat tokenized or discriminated against by other kids you know in ways that like don' ; t make sense when you' ; re little. But then realizing that like these are culturally ingrained white supremacist behaviors towards people that you know, no one' ; s taught how to hate other people, but like kids pick up on what their parents do and you know what their neighbors do and what the older kids do. So I think it was really difficult making sense of like not fitting in, being a lot younger and being bullied quite a lot. And it got a lot clearer, I think by the time getting to middle school where kids learn all of these awful words, all these awful things that they don' ; t know how to contextualize and maybe don' ; t have the built empathy yet to know that they' ; re running around like psychopaths you know, saying these things against other people. You know and also partaking in that because of that reason of the way other people spoke to me and spoke to other people and thinking that it is acceptable, normal and forgivable, okay behavior when the case is that is completely isn' ; t-- And I remember the first time that I ever heard the term " ; Jap" ; was in sixth grade in the lunchroom, and one of the few other minority students at my middle school, he was an Indian friend, well, somewhat friend acquaintance. He got upset about something and took out his anger and called me a stupid Jap at the lunchroom table. And I didn' ; t know what it meant, but the way he said it like hurt, and I knew it was wrong and bad, and it just kind of felt a lot different, you know hearing it from someone that you know wasn' ; t doing the like " ; chink eyed expression" ; to me as all the kids called it. You know like actually being direct and coming from another kid that was a person of color kind of threw me off. And immediately, another one of my friends who was white, just looked at me and he was always a good friend, just said like, like what, he' ; s like, " ; Don' ; t let him call you a Jap, you need to like, call him a sand N word." ; And the whole thing just escalated really quickly into this confusion of like I was paralyzed and I couldn' ; t say anything. I didn' ; t know what to do. And I' ; m pretty sure that I ended up like going and hiding somewhere and just left the table without saying anything to anyone. And I think from there like it just got worse as kids got older, got a lot more bold and learned a lot more words. And I think, were a lot more socially competitive in a way that was really difficult. I think at a lot of times of like encountering, you know, there' ; s always going to be a bully. There' ; s always going to be someone that' ; s like flexing their power and you know, trying to dominate everyone and want the attention. And you know for whatever reason, you know like kids are like that. But like continuing through middle school, being called an Asian pig, Jap several times, and one kid did it so often to me in our Spanish class, and he sat right across the desk from me that I was just, would never say anything. I got fed up and I said, " ; You' ; re a piece of white trash." ; And then I think that was kind of the point where like I realized what gaslighting was, where the kid got up and he was always really loud and yelled, " ; That' ; s racist, you' ; re a racist." ; And the whole thing got flipped on me. All these other kids joined in. I said, " ; Well, he' ; s been calling me a Jap and an Asian pig like every day like in this period." ; And I got really mad. And you know, it was the sort of thing where like I tried to not get into scuffles in school, but like it was just difficult like with a lot of people acting like that. And that sort of thing continued for a long time. And I feel like through that it was like really painful. And also I think boys don' ; t really, and still don' ; t, men don' ; t like synthesize emotions at all, and you' ; re not taught to do that. You' ; re supposed to just like give it back to them, you' ; re supposed to like, they call you an epithet, you call them an epithet, you know you just escalate. That, I thought it was okay to be like that and to use words like that against other people because that' ; s just how people were. At a certain point, it was just ingrained and like reprogrammed from peers who weren' ; t actually peers. They were operating from a completely different place and not treating me like I was an equal, and that' ; s something that still like really bums me out. Thinking about it makes me really sad that like I used any of that same language against other people as a kid, just because it became normalized and you know, that' ; s, that' ; s the way you fit in. So I think looking back, that' ; s like really tough to think about. JJ Ueunten: Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I' ; m mean, I' ; m curious if, I don' ; t know if you' ; ve had any kind of support or just, you just figured out what you kind of had to do at that point. Like did you, did you have any, anywhere to kind of talk, talk to or process any of that stuff that was going on? Alexander Ozawa: As, like as a kid? JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah. I think I had support from my parents a lot, family, but I just think like back in the early 2000s, no one was really like paying much mind to some of those issues like it might be now where people are a lot more aware of those things. Like I even had an English teacher, what was her name? Mrs. Thomas. She gave me a pack of origami paper in class and said, " ; You' ; re Japanese, like I bet you like this." ; And I called her out. I' ; m like, " ; Well, that' ; s like, like a bit fucked up." ; I' ; m sorry. " ; That' ; s a bit racist." ; And then I don' ; t think she noticed, and then she came in the next day and apologized. " ; I' ; m like, you' ; re one of the teachers?" ; like I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I' ; ll m-, I' ; ll make a crane, but you don' ; t know that I can do that." ; So I, I think that like schools weren' ; t as equipped and they didn' ; t really like intervene when those things happened. I think it would be more so like a principal might tell a kid that you need to apologize, but not actually like address the situation and find any accountability for it or change like the culture of what the school' ; s like that like this is not a place for like where we' ; re allowed to do that to each other. JJ Ueunten: I mean it, it sounds like you' ; ve really kind of reflected on, on that time a lot and like... Yeah, have kind of like a different perspective about how you go about things. Yeah. Is there anything that you' ; re kind of like willing to share about how... Yeah, how you' ; ve gotten to where you are? Alexander Ozawa: I think it' ; s just a lot of little things to get to like the point of like thinking about... I mean, I guess especially over the last year of what like the uprisings of 2020 looked like for racial justice, you know after the murder of George Floyd and you know, so many other people. And just knowing a lot of these things, and always, always feeling like making noise about stuff was kind of frowned upon by other people, mostly white people or by people that are more conservative. And just dealing with that and just deciding that like it' ; s, it' ; s enough, you know? Like doing, like being inactive and just dealing with like the blows that come from systems and people and places that are like not healthy and like good for anyone. It' ; s better to be active against that. So I think it' ; s just a lot of frustration and a lot of inaction leading to eventually doing more. JJ Ueunten: Yeah. And you kind of talked about kind of how boys and men are socialized and I, I think, yeah, I, I guess I' ; m, I' ; m just kind of... Sorry, I' ; m getting stuck. Alexander Ozawa: It' ; s cool. JJ Ueunten: Just kind of curious about like any of, of your thoughts about that, especially maybe related to being Japanese or maybe not. Alexander Ozawa: Yeah... Yeah I think socialization' ; s really weird and I don' ; t, like I' ; m trying to think of how to like clarify my thoughts on it. I feel like they' ; re a little all over the place. Yeah, I, I feel like for like the socialization of like specifically boys in like American culture, we' ; re just not taught emotional intelligence in a structured way or really in any way. And I feel like it would be really beneficial, you know, especially if we are in like intersectional places where like not everyone looks the same. Not everyone speaks the same languages, people don' ; t speak the same food-- eat the same foods, you know like-- There' ; s just like people are different and like that' ; s okay. Like we are all just people still. And I feel like some of that is cultural, and I feel like that' ; s something that' ; s like not specific to just like white supremacist American culture, but it' ; s also, like I feel like looking at like Japanese culture, there' ; s like such an emphasis on men and boys and in that position too, like I don' ; t know, you know, where the overlap is, but I feel like that is generally like a cross-cultural issue... That I wish I had more answers to, like... I just think some of it like isn' ; t talked about. It, I feel like is dismissed on like the American side of things in like our broader culture. But then on the Japanese side, I feel like things aren' ; t often talked about, and I don' ; t really want to say that in the way that it' ; s part of that like silent, model minority myth sort of way. I just think that it' ; s, it' ; s just not talked about from my experience you know that like the, the firstborn son gets the inheritance, gets the name, gets the all these things. I just feel like there' ; s a lot of like crossovers that are like really dominating on both sides. And I have an older sister, so it' ; s like, you know it' ; s like, " ; Well, it all goes to her then if you set these rules." ; JJ Ueunten: Yeah. Yeah. I, I guess I don' ; t have much more to ask. I don' ; t know any, any I guess, again, is, is there any kind of other things that you' ; d like to share? Alexander Ozawa: I guess the one thing I feel is really important is, just like still having time with like older family members and still having like that sense of community feels really important, but also having like this younger group of peers that are like really politically active and care a lot and do a ton of like social solidarity work, I feel like is like coming from two different directions on like identity and like looking at like being Japanese American and as a culture of like what our ancestors and people have gone through, but also what we' ; re trying to do now has felt like really important. So just really appreciate like you know, everyone that' ; s reaching out to other groups and, and working in solidarity. JJ Ueunten: Cool. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OzawaAlexander20210624.xml OzawaAlexander20210624.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
Alternate Form of Name
Alec
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6800
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Ozawa, Alexander (6/24/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Alexander Ozawa is a mixed-race Japanese American born and raised in Chicago's Northwest suburbs. His family’s history during World War II includes incarceration at Manzanar, Tule Lake, and Fort Sill. Post-incarceration, while making their way back to the West Coast from the East Coast, the family settled in Chicago after encountering a large and supportive Japanese American community. In this interview, Alexander discusses family members' reluctance to discuss their wartime experiences, his own experiences growing up mixed-race in a predominantly white community, and his motivations for political activism and solidarity work. He reflects upon his "othered" identity, instances of prejudice from his youth, and fond memories of attending the annual Ginza Festival. Finding connections both between and within generations, he expresses an appreciation for community and for his peers.
Date
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2021-06-24
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Oral History Project
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fead456fb5e33c57d3ed37482799e8e9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yamaji, Masao
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamajiMasao20181002.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Rohwer
South Side
Oakenwald Grammar School
Shakespeare Grammar School
Chicago Buddhist Church
Boy Scouts
Hyde Park High School
Lancers
Social Clubs
Olivet Institute
O.K. Grocery
Housing Discrimination
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/2/2018 Yamaji, Masao (10/2/2018) 1:37:30 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Rohwer South Side Oakenwald Grammar School Shakespeare Grammar School Chicago Buddhist Church Boy Scouts Hyde Park High School Lancers Social Clubs Olivet Institute O.K. Grocery Housing Discrimination Yamaji, Masao Takada, Anna video 1:|16(7)|32(4)|43(16)|64(3)|81(8)|95(15)|102(12)|115(5)|130(15)|145(4)|176(6)|195(11)|208(4)|226(11)|239(12)|251(4)|268(8)|280(8)|292(4)|301(14)|308(12)|316(12)|328(2)|340(8)|353(10)|363(2)|375(10)|386(15)|393(4)|404(14)|416(6)|433(9)|445(5)|455(2)|467(17)|476(5)|490(11)|507(7)|524(4)|533(7)|544(3)|560(3)|568(8)|580(4)|588(12)|601(18)|620(9)|637(3)|647(8)|657(6)|671(15)|683(5)|694(11)|708(4)|718(13)|728(14)|748(10)|761(2)|772(8)|794(9)|813(10)|823(12)|835(3)|844(5)|855(9)|865(3)|885(8)|897(10)|921(6)|936(9)|951(3)|965(9)|978(8)|993(6)|1014(5)|1025(14)|1040(6)|1067(1)|1087(3)|1103(5)|1115(8)|1123(1)|1131(15)|1144(17)|1151(1)|1158(12)|1174(15)|1184(3)|1193(12)|1210(16)|1220(8)|1230(3)|1241(7)|1258(8)|1266(12)|1276(15)|1288(6) 0 https://vimeo.com/601366227/7f2c17e0a9 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601366227?h=7f2c17e0a9" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; A nisei born in Los Angeles in 1935, Masao Yamaji was six years old when he, his parents, and three siblings were incarcerated at the Santa Anita racetrack and later sent by train to Rohwer, Arkansas. Too young to recall much from his pre-war life, Masao recalls living in horse stables and attending school on outdoor bleachers at Santa Anita and forging friendships at Rohwer that lasted throughout his life. His father departed Rohwer for Chicago in 1944, with the rest of the family following in 1945. In this interview, Masao shares memories of life on Chicago's South Side, where his father worked first at the Shotwell Candy Company before owning and operating the O.K. Grocery store. Of particular note are Masao's detailed descriptions of products sold in the family's grocery store, his experiences working in the family business, and his description of Japanese American young adult social life in the 1950s. He also discusses the changing racial dynamics in the neighborhood, prejudice he witnessed while serving in the military, and housing discrimination he and his wife experienced in Chicago in the 1960s. He closes the interview by expressing concerns about persistent racism and hate, and his hope that love and goodness will prevail. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Masao Yamaji as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on October 2nd, 2018 at about 1:15 PM at the JASC in Chicago. Masao Yamaji is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you just state your full name? Masao Yamaji: My full name? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Masao Yamaji: Masao Yamaji. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? Masao Yamaji: I was born in Los Angeles, California, March the 27th, 1935. I don' ; t know what... At home. Yeah, it was a mid, midwife. Anna Takada: And did you have siblings? Masao Yamaji: I had a, a brother and a sister. Brother is under me. And then the younger one was sister. Anna Takada: You' ; re the eldest? Masao Yamaji: I' ; m the oldest. I' ; m Nii-san. Yeah. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about your parents, what their names were and where they were originally from? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my dad was named Roy Yamaji, actually, Roy Sanji Yamaji. We have a crazy situation in my family where I have two brothers and we all have different, we all are named differently. It' ; s crazy, it' ; s a crazy story how it happened. [NOTE: " ; Sanji" ; and " ; Yamaji" ; are alternate forms of the same last name. The kanji character for mountain can be read as either " ; san" ; or " ; yama" ; .] Anna Takada: You mean your, your father' ; s family or your family? Masao Yamaji: My family. My brother, my brother. On my birth certificate I have Masao Thomas Yamaji Sanji. I have Sanji and Yamaji. And I, I, I' ; ve always lived by the name of Yamaji. My brother, my brother under me, Ken, he was born about three years after, bef-- after me and he took, and he anyway has the name of Sanji. He ma-- when he got married he used, he... I guess his name became Sanji when he entered the Air Force, he entered the Air Force. An-- Anna Takada: And you' ; re not sure how that happened, the two names? Masao Yamaji: I' ; m not sure whether he didn' ; t like the name Yamaji or what. But we grew, we all grew up Yamaji and after marriage, my two brothers have a different name. One' ; s Sanji and one' ; s Yamazi, he put a Z on the end of his name. I, I don' ; t know how that happened, but that' ; s, that' ; s what we' ; re living with now. Anna Takada: And do you know where your father was from, Roy? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, he was, I found out he' ; s, he was from Wakuba, Japan. Wakuba Japan, and so, so was my mom actually. They were from the same area. [NOTE: placename as confirmed by immigration records appears to be " ; Wabuka" ; village in Wakayama prefecture] Anna Takada: And what' ; s your mom' ; s name? Masao Yamaji: Kazu, Kazuko, Kazuko Yamaji. Anna Takada: And do you, do you know about how they met or how they ended up-- Masao Yamaji: It was an arranged marriage because the families I guess they knew each other in, in the old country, farming in Tacoma, Washington. Anna Takada: What kind of farm did they have? Masao Yamaji: I think was it a, was it tomatoes? Or some kind of, maybe some kind of fruit. I' ; m not sure what it was. Tomatoes or... I can' ; t remember. Anna Takada: Do you know what year they came to the U.S.? Masao Yamaji: Oh God, no. I, I don' ; t know that. I don' ; t know. I forgot. Anna Takada: And... Masao Yamaji: But he, my dad came with his dad. That' ; s right. They came here from... And he was the second son and the older brother stayed in Japan. And he came here with his dad. And then they, I don' ; t know, he was working in the maybe fishing, fishing industry in, near Seattle. Anna Takada: Do you have any ideas about why they came, why they decided to come to the U.S.? Masao Yamaji: I guess they, they were having a tough time. And so they, he was, they came out here and the older brother stayed in Japan and they were going to settle down and try to send money back, yeah. Anna Takada: And so, by the time you were born, was that on the farm that your family had? Masao Yamaji: Well, what happened was I, I found out my dad and my mom well they arranged, it was an arranged marriage. She was married, they married, and she was still in high school. They didn' ; t tell anyone. And... oh, God... Then they, after they told everyone that they were married, they, they left, they left together and went to California. And that' ; s where I was born. So I think that' ; s why they got married because my mom was pregnant and, and she had, they couldn' ; t yeah, she still had a year to go in high school, I guess. I' ; m not sure the whole story there either. We found out later on, my sister and her, her sons, they traveled to Japan and visited the old town and they had, they had a really great time there and found out a lot about the family. Anna Takada: So can you tell me a little bit more about your memories of growing up in L.A. and-- Masao Yamaji: You know, I don' ; t have many memories ' ; cause I know I started school there. I was in garte-- in kindergarten. I recall crying when it was time to go to school. I other than that, I don' ; t remember too much about my school days. You know, my mom had a bunch of photographs, but I, I can' ; t connect with what was going on in the photos. Anna Takada: What were the photographs of? Masao Yamaji: Oh, being held by the babysitter or pedaling on my bi-- on my tricycle, you know things like that. I guess we' ; d had a place to stay and some neigh--, neighbors. My dad ran a grocery store. He, he was running a, I think it was a grocery store in San Pedro, California, just close by. Anna Takada: Okay. And at that time, was that more of a, a city environment or more rural? Masao Yamaji: It was more of a city environment, yeah. So, my dad was working and my mom would just stay, stay at home taking care of me. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: But I don' ; t remember too much about the home life in, in L.A. Anna Takada: As far as kind of like home life within your family, what languages were, were being spoken? Masao Yamaji: Oh, it was Japane-- they talked Japanese. So I, until the age of five, I, I spoke Japanese too you know, when I was a kid. Anna Takada: Was that your first language then? Masao Yamaji: I guess so, yeah. But I' ; m sure my mom was talking to me in English. You know they didn' ; t, they didn' ; t want us to become Japanese. They wanted us to become American. You have to learn that, you know. You wanted, yeah, you had to talk English. Anna Takada: So, just for one second, sorry to interrupt this. I' ; m just going to move this light a little bit again. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, oh. Anna Takada: Background does not film. Masao Yamaji: Okay. Anna Takada: All right. Would you mind just looking at me? Okay. This seems to be better. Masao Yamaji: Okay. All right. Anna Takada: All right, sorry about this. Masao Yamaji: All right. Anna Takada: Okay. So back to, to family life. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, I don' ; t... Anna Takada: Were your, were your family, or were your parents religious at all? Masao Yamaji: They weren' ; t, yeah, I, I didn' ; t know anything about religion. They weren' ; t church going, but the family, well I know they were Buddhist. Anna Takada: Okay. Masao Yamaji: But they just didn' ; t, they didn' ; t go to church. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so you... Let' ; s see, you were six years old when the war broke out. Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: Do you have any memories of...? Masao Yamaji: Of the war breaking out? No. I don' ; t. Only what I' ; ve seen on, on the radio or whatever. I had no, I had no idea what that was. Anna Takada: And how about evacuation or when it was time for your family to leave? Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah, I, I remember the packing up, going to the Santa Anita racetrack. That' ; s where we were, we were taken. The stables. Anna Takada: So... Masao Yamaji: The army bed, the cots. Anna Takada: So would you, if you do have memories of, of this as a child do you, do you have any... Well, let me rephrase this question. Do you have memories of how you felt or kind of where you were at? Masao Yamaji: Well, I don' ; t. I, I, I don' ; t think I was scared. I had my parents with me and everything seemed to be calm. We were being fed. There were hundreds of other people that looked like everyone else. And I was just waiting in line. And yeah, I thought it was a routine. We went to school. Anna Takada: This is in Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: In the Santa Anita racetrack we went to school in the, on the, I guess it was the grandstand. And they had portioned, settled people, class here, class here. That was, that was the class. As a kid, I thought it was you know just part of, part of going to school. They fed us. Anna Takada: At that point did you have your younger siblings with you? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, we were all together. Just, just-- Anna Takada: Okay, the three of you, the three kids? Masao Yamaji: Yeah three of us. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so how old would they have been? Or what was-- Masao Yamaji: Let' ; s see I was, well I was six, they were three... four years, four years younger. Six... Four... Six... Two? My God, he must have been two or three my brother. And then my sister was just, just one year older. Yeah, one or two years old. God. Anna Takada: And do you remember the, the space that you were in? Masao Yamaji: Just a space like sta-- little stables where the horses were housed? So we had the beds, the beds for all of us. Army, army blankets. I remember the blankets, the, the straw-filled mattresses and the beds, beds sinking into the black, I don' ; t know, tar or whatever the floor was, yeah. The smell of the straw and the whatever other odors there were in the stable. It was, it' ; s kind of weird. Anna Takada: And would you happen to remember if you had any con--, conversations with your parents about, you know like, did they explain where you were going or what' ; s going on? It was just kind of... Masao Yamaji: No, they never... I, no, other than I, later on when we were in the camps, my grandfather told, told us that, " ; Don' ; t worry, when Japan wins the war, we' ; ll get out of here. Get out of these camps." ; That' ; s all, that' ; s what we believed. That' ; s what I believed anyway. Anna Takada: And so you were there with your grandfather as well. Any other family besides your immediate family? Masao Yamaji: I think my aunt, I think my aunt, aunt and her family. I think she had only one, one or two, ' ; cause I have, there' ; s photographs of, of us. That was my, my mother' ; s brother' ; s family. Anna Takada: And, any other memories about Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: Oh, waiting in line for the meals. I think there was wait in shifts or one group was A group or B group or whatever. They had little, I think they had, we wore buttons to go into the mess hall and I can' ; t remember what we ate. God, I, I wonder if we had rice. We always needed rice. I can' ; t remember what, what we had. Anna Takada: And so do you have, do you know how long your family was in Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: I can' ; t remember. I know it' ; s, it' ; s on the records. It wasn' ; t that long. Yeah. Then they, we went to Arkansas. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit more about-- Masao Yamaji: About... Anna Takada: --what happened to your family after Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: Oh, getting on the trains. Oh god, it was dingy, dark and dingy trains. And, and it was kind of scary on the train. They, they wouldn' ; t let us look out the window. All the shades were drawn, so it was really kinda dark. And, and just, I can' ; t believe we rode on that train to Arkansas, you know? I think about it. I don' ; t remember having to go to the washroom, or what, whatever the heck, I don' ; t know, where the heck did I go? Anna Takada: Yeah, it must have been a, quite a long trip. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, it must' ; ve been two or three days at least. Huh. Wow. My God. That must have been horrible for my parents with all the noise, people crowded, god. The luggage, you had to carry what you had. My God, man. I don' ; t know what the heck my, how my, how my folks did it, you know? My god. Anna Takada: Do you know how old they were at the time of all of this? Masao Yamaji: Oh God, my, my mom must have been 17 or 18 years. No, she was young. Maybe 18 years old? My dad was older. He was, he was at least 10 years older. Anna Takada: So from Santa Anita, your family took a train ride to Rohwer. What are some of your memories about Rohwer? Masao Yamaji: Oh, well, fooling around. Playing with the kids. Playing with friends that I made. In fact, I still have in Chicago, I have a couple of friends that I met in Rohwer when we were 7... 6, 7 years old. Met them in the schools. And then when we moved here, they moved in the same area you know on, on the North side. So I, so I think that' ; s fantastic I still have these friends from 70 years ago. (laughs) Anna Takada: And, so how did-- Masao Yamaji: In Rohwer, yeah, oh wow, man, oh, the mud you know? Muddy. At times muddy, god. Oh yeah, but at times, we kids, we fooled around and playing, making up stuff with things that we could find. We played with the sticks and throwing balls around. There were barracks, the barracks we would, one guy would be on one side and one kid goes to the other side of the barracks, and we tried to throw the balls over the roof. My God, we used to do some crazy, they would make things up, you know, make things like blow guns, finding pipe, rolling up newspaper or magazine covers, magazine pages. Rolling them up into a little dart and, and blowing it through a, the pipe, the lead pipe. If you could find something to put, to put in the front of the piece of paper you know so it could, it would stick like a dart. We made up all kinds of games. Played ball, baseball. Oh my God. When we used to go out of the camp, no, I, I don' ; t know why. There were no guards. All the guards had gone. The watch towers are there, but all the guards are gone. The fences, the barbwire was useless, you know, you could go right through the barbwire. And we did. We went, the kids went out roaming around in some, by the woods. There was a little stream, fooling around, making , making fishing poles, getting some string sticking on the end tie, and we would tie some bait or whatever, whatever we could get from the kitchen and throw it into the water and try to catch crayfish that would grab the, the bait and then we' ; d pull them up. We didn' ; t eat the crayfish, it' ; s, just caught them. Anna Takada: Did your, were your parents or were adults aware of the kids going out to play? Masao Yamaji: You know what? I don' ; t know. I don' ; t, I know we never told them we were, what we were doing, so my gosh, we were fooling around and there were, there was poisonous snakes, snakes around. I didn' ; t even worry about snakes or anything. We never got into any trouble. No, no accidents. We were lucky. Anna Takada: Yeah. And I imagine that there are a number of " ; city kids" ; who were...? Masao Yamaji: Oh, oh yeah. And they, well we, we had to go to schools, we did go to school and, and my god, the little, little chairs and little rectangular, rectangular tables we sat at. I just have good, good memories of school. They had Japanese schools you could go to after, after school. Some kids did that. Anna Takada: Did you ever have to go to Japanese school back in L.A. before the war? Masao Yamaji: Never. No, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t start, you know I had no idea what the heck I was. I don' ; t know if I was, if it was, my folks never talked about it. I, you know, when I think about it they didn' ; t talk about it or even when we got here, they never, they never talked about their feelings or what we, what they did, yeah. But camp, camp to me was running around and discovering things, you know? Anna Takada: As far as the, the living quarters-- Masao Yamaji: Oh living quarters... Anna Takada: --and the, the physical structures of Rohwer, how did that, what were they like or how did they compare to Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: Oh, okay. Well, it was more like a, a little residence the barracks had, it was divided up into one, two, three, four, I guess six maybe. And there was just rooms, bare rooms, army cots. They, we, they separated the area with ropes and rope hanging down to make like a little barrier. So we all, we all had our own bed. So it was kind of crowded because the people improvised to, to make it home, home-like. Anna Takada: What do, what do you mean? Or how would people... Masao Yamaji: Oh curtai-- trying to make curtains, you know. And, yeah otherwise it was the, the ro--, the rope and blankets tossed over the rope. Made little separations. Anna Takada: Little rooms? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah. Little rooms. Yeah. Anna Takada: Did your parents work in camp? Masao Yamaji: I think my dad had, he did something in the kitchen. I never, I never did see him working or anything. My mom just stayed and took care of the kids. Of course, my, I would be out with the, the boys fooling around after school. Of course, you had to tell my parents, you had to tell my mom what the heck I was, we were doing, or where were going. Just around the camp, you know. Because it' ; s separated into little blocks. So each block is like a little community separate from each other and the, the bathrooms and everything. Every camp has its own mess hall. Anna Takada: Do you remember any information about where your family was located or what your mess hall was or... Masao Yamaji: You know, April, my niece, found out she had a little floor plan of the whole, whole camp. And we were in block six and she had, she got information from the, I don' ; t know, I guess everything is recorded. And all the people that were in the camp and all the people that were, where they stayed, where they stayed in every one of the blocks. That was beautiful. She found that all out. And we, I know there was a laundry and my mom, my mom would take the clothes to get, to wash. And there was a girls' ; and boys' ; -- I mean woman' ; s and, and men' ; s side for toilets, baths. Early, my, I used to go, my mom, I went with my mom for to, to wash. And then later on I, I could go to the, they, they let me go and bathe with the, the other guys you know? Rather than going with her. And one time, I remember, one the older boys, the older boys, they had made something like this and they' ; d crawl over, and they' ; d crawl over to the woman' ; s side. And they had made a little hole in, in the floor and they could peek, peek down into the women' ; s washroom. And they' ; re all laughing and laughing. And I was scared I was going to fall. So I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t dare look, go down and look, I might fall over. The crazy thing is I could be down there, you know, and I thought about that. Anna Takada: What do you mean? Masao Yamaji: Well, I could have been down there bathing while they' ; re up there, look, maybe looking down. I mean don' ; t know what you could see ' ; cause I, but I, it was, that was what the younger, the older boys are doing. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: And I talked with a friend of mine, with my friend Ken, Kenny Hattori, and I was telling him this story about that and he says, " ; Yeah, we did the same thing, bunch of, bunch of boys. You' ; re kidding, you did that too?" ; I said, " ; That must be boys are boys, right?" ; Yeah, yeah, who else would do that? So, oh we did crazy, there was one time, this is the truth, I don' ; t know how in the world... We all, we all lined up maybe 20, 10, 15 guys. And we all held hands and one guy would stick his hand, his finger into the light socket, electrical light socket. Oh my god, so the jolt would go through and it would end, the first, the last guy would get to the... And I did that one time, and then I thought, " ; This is crazy" ; , they' ; re laughing and we were laughing. Think about it, we could have all died right there. Oh my god, I don' ; t believe we did such a thing, man. Anna Takada: Were you ever bored in camp? Sounds like you were up to a-- there were lots of activities and... Masao Yamaji: All kinds of stuff. Yeah, that' ; s true. You could go out and fool around, you know? Anna Takada: I know you mentioned that you don' ; t have a whole lot of memories of you know, before camp. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: But if you, if you had to think about it and I guess kind of compare maybe your family life or you know, as a child from before and then in camp, what were some of the... Masao Yamaji: The family life? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Masao Yamaji: God, it was the same, I guess. I can' ; t, my, my mom and dad I can' ; t believe you know I, they never seemed to be complaining. They never complained to us about anything. We all kinda went along with it, I, it' ; s hard to believe it, but we did. Yeah, we ordered, they ordered clothes from the Sears and Roebuck, you know we had... I, I don' ; t know where the heck the money came from. I don' ; t know what kind of cash we had. Anna Takada: Another question that just came to mind. Did you have, were you in Rohwer with any friends or you know pals that you had either made or known from Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: No. No, I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think so. And all the people, yeah I, I made friends. I made friends in camp that are still my friends. There must, there' ; s quite a few, yeah. Well, in the early days anyway, because we all came to Chicago and it was a big community in, on the north side where we, where we were. That was ' ; 45. That was ' ; 45. My dad came here early. He came here in ' ; 44 to find you know, get resettled with the Resettlers. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So, before we, we get into some of your experiences in Chicago, is there anything else you want to share about any memories or... Masao Yamaji: Like camp life? Anna Takada: Yeah, about camp life. Masao Yamaji: Oh my gosh. Wow. well, the, the days were really I guess just short, I mean days were short, it was fast. It went by, as a child, I know we made things and I had my friends who, gosh, we, we, we made crazy things to play with you know. Army, army shell casings, big round, round I guess, bullets or projectiles were housed in these round things. They, they made things with them. Anna Takada: Why were those in camp, those types of things? Masao Yamaji: They must have been left over from some Army soldiers being there. I never saw any soldiers, like in the photos where they' ; re guarding, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t see any in, in Rohwer. Anna Takada: Did you see, do you remember seeing any non-Japanese folks? Masao Yamaji: I remember seeing non-Japanese. They were teaching, I think, or maybe the nurses. Other than that, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t see any non-Japanese. And I can' ; t remember seeing any black people. I thought, wow, I mean think of it. There' ; s all kinds of black people around there now, you know? We used to go out of the camp and visit a little grocery store in McGee. And we had just very little money, but we went there to buy, buy candy. Anna Takada: Was that with your family or with friends? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, with my friends, not with my family. They were all, they never went. If they went out of the camp, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t know about it. Anna Takada: And how did that work? Were you just kind of leaving camp or was there an organized like get everyone on a truck type of? Masao Yamaji: No, no, no. We walked. Yeah, we walked. God, I don' ; t know where the heck it was, but I know that there was a grocery store. Anna Takada: Did you do that a few times or? Masao Yamaji: A few times. A few times to buy candy or pop or something, like I know that, wow. Anna Takada: Did locals have any kind of reactions toward you? Masao Yamaji: No. Never had any... No, never had any reaction. I didn' ; t feel it anyway. That only happened yeah later on when I came here. Yeah. Like I said, I can' ; t remember me seeing any black people, wow. Anna Takada: So I, I also wanted to make some time to talk about the, your recent trip. You had mentioned that you and your family had gone to the site of Rohwer. Your niece had organized a, a family trip. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: So, can you tell me more about that? Masao Yamaji: Oh gosh. Anna Takada: It was this past weekend. Is that right? Masao Yamaji: This past weekend, Saturday and, Saturday and Sunday. It was really fun. Really saw it kind of exhausting. And it was hot. It was warm down there. Luckily it didn' ; t rain. The people were friendly. Oh yeah, real nice. We went to the museum and the woman there, Kate, Katie, Kathy, or... She was so nice. My god, she working hard. She said she' ; d been working there since, since the museum started or something a while back. She was born down there. And then we met the Consul General, a guy named Kobayashi, Consul General. He was from Nashville, something like that. He was there looking at the museum. Anna Takada: And so how was that... Can you tell me more about you know, how and why your family organized that trip? Masao Yamaji: My niece, A-April, she attended when we went, when I went to the reunion, all camps reunion at JASC. You, that' ; s where I met you. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: Wow. She was interested in that, she started, I, I would like to go. She brought her camera, she brought all kinds of stuff and she wanted to take, take the information and she wanted to know what was going on. That' ; s when she became interested in the, the whole, the whole project. And I guess she, she went online and found out all kinds... And she called down, down to Rohwer. And then she met a, a gal who, whose mother was former mayor of McGee. So they, they, she became, in touch, she got in touch with this girl, Rosalie, I can' ; t remember what her last name was, we went to her house. Anna Takada: And who in your family was on this trip? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my family? Oh, my daughter and her two sons. One, one daughter. Anna Takada: I, I guess the, the group, who was in the group? Was it all family or... Masao Yamaji: No, no all fami-- not all family. But another, another former internee, Kenny Hattori, his, his wife, Nobuko and their daughter. Anna Takada: And you said Kenny was in camp? Masao Yamaji: Ken, Kenny Hattori was in camp. And another friend of mine, Raymond Ishino, was in that camp too. And he' ; s, he' ; s over at Heiwa. He' ; s a resident of Heiwa. So, then who else is there? Hiko, a guy named Hiko Hattori, Kenny' ; s brother Hiko and his daughter. Really fantastic. Anna Takada: What-- Oh sorry, what was that like for you to go back up there? Masao Yamaji: Oh God. It was interesting. It' ; s, it' ; s nice down there. Very warm. It' ; s, I can' ; t believe that, you know they, what, what hardships they must have had I-- Gosh, man, it' ; s a swamp there, you know? It' ; s really muddy, and god... Wow... All farmland now. Wow god, makes you, makes you amazed that they, they lived through it so yeah, my god wow... Anna Takada: Who are you, who are you referring to that they, when you say that " ; they lived through it" ; ? Because you were... Masao Yamaji: My folks, oh, I think my folks and the, all the elders, you know? Wow, god. They could, and the government could do that, you know? Wow. And nobody there knew what was going on. That' ; s hard to believe, right? All the residents. ' ; Cause Mrs. Rosalie, she said she didn' ; t know anything about it, but she became interested in it because she, she always liked Japanese art and she collected Japanese art. And then she heard about the, the camp and the, then she started collecting artwork from, from residents of Rohwer. Anna Takada: Did anything else surprise you on this trip? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my god what surprised me, man... I, that, that my, you know, my folks hardly, hardly talk about the camp, you know? What, what happened to them. I learned a lot about, I learned a lot in just going there, wow, man... Oh, and it' ; s sad. The, the fact that you know other people didn' ; t know, didn' ; t know a thing about it, you know? Wow. How could that be? That' ; s surprising. Huge place. And I hear that, that in Germany, the Nazi death camps, people supposedly didn' ; t know it was there. I, that' ; s hard to believe too. Anna Takada: So with the time left, like I mentioned, we' ; re interested in hearing from folks about their experiences moving to Chicago. So you mentioned that your father left early... Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: --for Chicago. So can you tell me more about kind of that, that story and how you guys ended up getting to leave camp to move to Chicago? Masao Yamaji: You know I, I know that he left early, and my, all I know is my mom' ; s telling me that, that my dad is here setting up a place to stay and, and get a job and then he' ; ll be sending for us. That was, that was all I, all I knew. Anna Takada: How old were you by that time? Masao Yamaji: So I was by that time, nine, eight, eight/nine, nine, nine years old yeah. Yeah I was nine when he came here. Anna Takada: That was 1944 then? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: And, so when he... Do you know anything about his, his job in Chicago? Masao Yamaji: He had a job, Shotwell Candy Company. Anna Takada: Shotwell? Masao Yamaji: Shotwell Candy Company. That' ; s what I remember. I think he worked at night. Anna Takada: How long was he gone before sending for the rest of you? Masao Yamaji: I' ; m not sure. All I know is he left. We left in like March or so of 1945. We, we were here before the war ended. Yeah, we heard about the bombing, the bombing when we were on the south side. Anna Takada: So your father, your father came early and then sent for you all. Did he come back to the camp to travel with you? Masao Yamaji: No, he didn' ; t. We came alone, yeah we came without him, yeah. Anna Takada: And did you, if you remember, did you go with anyone else or was it just your family? Masao Yamaji: I can' ; t, I can' ; t remember who else came with, came with us. I think it was just our family. I, I don' ; t remember, I don' ; t remember these, coming here, you know? I don' ; t remember... God, I must have been, so I must have been, we must have been so happy, my god. But yeah, when we got here it was very scary. I really was scared seeing all the, the cars and oh god, it' ; s such a new place, you know? The big buildings right on 3985 South Drexel, my god... Anna Takada: So you, your family went to the south side? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, I went Oakenwald Grammar School and then, in 1947, that was in fifth grade, so, in 1947 we moved to a little farther to 43rd and Greenwood. And, and then I went to Shakespeare, Shakespeare Grammar School. So we stayed there till I was in high school. My dad bought a... He saved money, bought a store on 43rd and Drexel. Anna Takada: What kind of store? Masao Yamaji: Grocery store. Oh, he, he had meat, yeah he, a butcher. He had fish, fish. He had everything. A little tiny store. We all worked there. Anna Takada: Did he have any like Japanese produce or products? Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. Yeah. He had a lot of Japanese food ' ; cause all the Japanese were in the, in the area. Anna Takada: Do you know the, the year that would' ; ve been that he opened that or started the business? Masao Yamaji: Oh, he opened the store around 1950, ' ; 51 or something like that. I, I graduated grammar school in 1949. And when I was high school, I was, yeah, so maybe when I was a sophomore, maybe my second year he, he bought the store. Anna Takada: What was it called? Masao Yamaji: O.K. Grocery. Oh, it was, we he bought it from a former Japanese family called Okamoto. That' ; s why the old O.K. comes from, but that' ; s a good name, O.K. So my dad just left it O.K. And he stayed there until, gosh, 19, 1960, something like that, in the ' ; 60s. The neighborhood started to change, you know in 19, in the ' ; 50s, ' ; 51, ' ; 52. Anna Takada: In what ways? Masao Yamaji: The, the white people were moving out and the Black, Black people moved, started to move in. It was all, all white when we, when the Japanese were, well happened to you know, move in 1940, ' ; 45. Anna Takada: What neighborhood was that considered at the time? Masao Yamaji: Oakland, Kenwood. It' ; s the Oakland Kenwood neighborhood. And I saw, I saw the neighborhood go from all white to Black. And of course there was fighting. Of course, the Japanese, when we first came there were subject to getting into fights and call, name calling. So... You know, Japs. Japs. And then the older, the older guys and my, the guys that I knew they would be fighting. Yeah. Anna Takada: So this was when you were still in middle school or elementary school age? Masao Yamaji: I was, yeah, I was in, so I' ; m in, yeah, 10, 11, fifth, you know sixth, sixth grade, fifth/sixth grade. But we, in our group, I, I' ; m sure you know, even though we might have been subject to racial taunts and stuff, we, that' ; s why we all formed groups of guys and we all stuck together. The force in numbers. Anna Takada: And so if you can help me kind of get a clear picture of sort of what it was like at this time really? So like soon after you arrived to Chicago and for the next couple of years. There were other Japanese American families moving in? Masao Yamaji: Oh. Yes. Anna Takada: Is that right? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Hundreds. Hundreds. All over the South Side from... All south-- All east of Cottage Grove. Cottage Grove was like the dividing line. The whites, whites were on the East Side and, of Cottage Grove and Blacks were on the West Side. So I guess then-- Anna Takada: And so where were, where was your family? Masao Yamaji: We, we were, we were moved, we were on the white side, on, on the East side. Yeah. There weren' ; t any, there were very few Blacks in the schools that we went to at that time, ' ; 40, ' ; 45. I can, I recall the first, first Black guy that moved into our class in Shakespeare. That' ; d be, what was that? Well, sixth grade? Sixth grade. Sixth, seventh grade. And that was, that was quite a happening for the one Black guy in the school, you know? There was a lot of Japanese in the school, and most, and other than that, there were a lot of Jews. So Jews. Jews and Japs. Anna Takada: Did you personally experience discrimination or you know, issues with other kids? Non-Japanese kids? Masao Yamaji: Oh, you know, not in school. Maybe on the street, maybe being called names or whatnot, but I never was gonna retaliate with any force. Yeah. Anna Takada: And you mentioned the, the young, young boys kind of grouping together. Masao Yamaji: Yes. We all grouped together. Anna Takada: At what age did that start, and... Masao Yamaji: Oh, that started when we were 13, 14 years old. Boy Scouts. My, my mom and dad worried about us. So did the other parents. And they made, they made us go to church. So we, we went to the Buddhist church, a lot of us went to a Buddhist church just to get it, keep... They had a Boy Scout troop. Anna Takada: And so was this now BTC, but then it was Chicago Buddhist Church? Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: Is that the one? Masao Yamaji: It was Chicago Buddhist Church on the South Side. Reverend Kubose. Yeah. And th-they made us go there to, to probably keep us out of trouble, worried. Anna Takada: And so did you have any other activities besides school, church, and Boy Scouts? Masao Yamaji: Oh, well... Anna Takada: Did you have to go to Japanese school? Masao Yamaji: No, we didn' ; t have to. I never did go to Japanese school. There was a Japanese school at, at the church. I never, I never did. Well, I played ball. We played ball. We got together and we' ; d, we' ; d go across the IC tracks on 43rd and go to the park. And that was like our domain, playing ball in the, in the park. Either football or baseball or we could easily go farther east and the water' ; s there, we' ; d go swimming off, off the rocks and we had inner tubes. Everyone would carry the inner tube and we' ; d paddle out to the water, we were crazy. Just, " ; Come back! You' ; re too far, too far away." ; Yeah, we, we would go diving into the water and, and collecting rocks, make a, make a platform, get all the rocks that we could find and make a platform so we could stand out there and, a bit with our head above the water. That was playing around. Anna Takada: Was that in the lake? Masao Yamaji: Playing around in the lake now. No swimming places. Yeah. Other than that, we didn' ; t get into any trouble. We played ball until, in the summer, you know, played ball until it was dark. We all lived close by, so we all lived in that area close by. Anna Takada: And so during this time, you mentioned your dad opened the O.K. Grocery in ' ; 50 or ' ; 51. Masao Yamaji: Oh yes. Anna Takada: So closer to when you were in high school. Was he at the candy company? Masao Yamaji: No. Anna Takada: The whole time until then, or? What kind of work? Masao Yamaji: As far as I know he was. Anna Takada: And do you know what kind of work he was actually doing at the candy company? Masao Yamaji: I have no... No, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know what he did there. I don' ; t know how much money he was, he was able to save because he bought the, he bought the store, which of course, surprised the heck out of everyone. It surprised me. What? But it, it cut down. I had to, I was working now and I went into high school and I couldn' ; t do anything. I wanted to play ball. I wanted to go on the swimming, try swimming. I wanted to try football. I tried out for football. Anna Takada: And which high school did you go to? Masao Yamaji: Hyde Park High School. Whole bunch of Japanese were there with me. Anna Takada: But you couldn' ; t do these activities because you needed to-- Masao Yamaji: Oh, because I, I started working. I had to help my dad. Anna Takada: What, what kind of work were you doing in the grocery store? Masao Yamaji: Oh, selling. You know, in those days there wasn' ; t-- Anna Takada: Register... Masao Yamaji: Yeah, the register, right. Old cranking, crank register. Oh God, that was a great, great little place. And it was a story where you know, it wasn' ; t self-serve. You ran around and put things in a bag. Yeah. Anna Takada: Yeah. Can you, do you have a pretty clear memory of what it actually looked like or how the store was organized? Like what, what size grocery store was it? Masao Yamaji: Oh my God. It was tiny. Considering a store. They had, he had fruits and vegetables. He had, well, little, little Japanese bamboo crates. Bowls with maybe takuan in it and tsukemono you know, napa tsukemono and stuff. All, all in little with a glass cover, you know? And so people, the strangers would like, the little Black kids would come in and hold their nose, " ; It stinks in here." ; It was the takuan and what, a fish. We had fish. Oh, it was great, great smells right to us. Yeah. And tofu. Tofu was in an aluminum can. And you' ; d, you' ; d dip your hand in there to put the cover, put it in, then put the... yeah. It wasn' ; t in a... nothing was packaged. Anna Takada: And so that was your job to get people the-- Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. I used to get all that. We, we served them, we served the customer. Cut up, they wanted one, somebody would want a couple slices of bologna, we' ; d slice it. What? Wrap it, weigh it, wrap it. I can' ; t imagine. Anna Takada: So you had produce and then a counter for meats maybe. Masao Yamaji: Produce. Mm-hmm. We had meats, fish. My dad would do the, he butchered and he sliced up like maguro, the big tuna. Big tuna was shipped, I don' ; t know from where, from California. He would cut up the tuna, I can' ; t imagine how he did that. And then he would go, you know 5 o' ; clock in the morning, he goes, he goes out to the market to buy fruit and vegetable. Then he comes back with that. And then loads of... Like somebody would bring in a big beef, beef carcass and butchers would bring it in. Wow, god. Slap it on the table, cutting board. And he cut that up. And I, I don' ; t know where the heck he learned how to do all that, but we didn' ; t think anything of it, you know? Wow. And everything was fresh shipped from California. Huge, huge abalone or, or salmon, all kinds of salmon. Not, not in a, it wasn' ; t frozen. It was all fresh California. Man. Anna Takada: Sounds like he must not have had a whole lot of free time, you know, to run this business, there are lots of-- Masao Yamaji: No, he didn' ; t have much free time. And yeah, he got home at 8, 8:00 or 9:00, closed the store up. We only lived around the block, so it was really short. Then he had, then he had a truck for delivery and that, and I delivered. Anna Takada: Grocery goods to people' ; s homes? Or-- Masao Yamaji: Yeah, grocery goods to homes. Even for 43rd, the store is on 43rd street. Sometimes I' ; d go to 80th Street. It' ; s all on the South Side though. And, and I' ; d be delivering four or five hours, 100 pound sacks of rice. People would order a hundred pound sack. I don' ; t know how in the world I did it, carrying it into the house. Wow. I, I can' ; t even carry 50 pounds now! (laughs) Anna Takada: And I' ; m sorry, how, how were you getting around to, for these deliveries? Masao Yamaji: With a truck. Anna Takada: With a truck. Masao Yamaji: Panel truck. Green. Green. It was a green, I called it the Green Hornet. It was just regular panel truck, no seats in the back. Just-- Anna Takada: You said the Green... Masao Yamaji: Green Hornet. I called it a Green Hornet. Yeah. I called it, sometimes my brother would, little brother would help me. So he' ; d, he' ; d sit, he would sit in the back. There was no seats, just sitting on the floor. Anna Takada: And at this point in time, you were in high school and let' ; s see, how old would he... would he have been in high school yet by that time? Masao Yamaji: Nah, I was 17 or 18. Yeah. Yeah. 16, 17, 18. Yeah, I learned to drive at, at 17. Anna Takada: Was that common for kids in the city to learn to know how to drive and... Masao Yamaji: I think so, yeah if... Yeah. I know there weren' ; t that many, not very many Japanese had a car. Yeah. But it was pretty cool. We all learned, we all learned to drive. Anna Takada: And were, and in the grocery store, were there any dry goods, or? Masao Yamaji: Yes, there were dry goods. We had the you know the nori and oh god... Noodles. Yeah. Besides that, he had the regular pop, Pepsi Colas, Coca-Cola, all that. Anna Takada: As far as the, the Japanese products, do you know where he was getting those? Masao Yamaji: Japan Foods. That' ; s what I remember. Japan Foods. Anna Takada: Was that a distributor? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, big. Anna Takada: And was that in Chicago? Masao Yamaji: Big. And they' ; re still around. Yeah. Big distributor. Japan Foods. And I guess he dealt with I don' ; t... Some fish company that delivered the stuff from California. He used to send me to, to the north side, to Toguri' ; s, to pick up stuff, or there were quite a few Japanese stores on, on the South Side, three, four of them. Anna Takada: Can you remember, or do you remember their names or? Masao Yamaji: Oh my God. Anna Takada: Were there a lot of them? Masao Yamaji: I think there was one, Mr. Fuji. Fuji, Fuji Market. Oh God. Who else was there? There was Franklin, god there was a, Franklin Foods. Gee. There were others. Two, three others. I can' ; t remember them now. Wow. In fact, I would go there. We, we were all, we were all helping each other. If somebody needed something, I know my dad would. Yeah. Anna Takada: The other, with the other businesses you mean? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: And as far as clientele, was it mostly other Japanese Americans? Masao Yamaji: Yes. He had mostly Japanese people that, from camps. They were all settled around, they had all settled around the neighborhood. It' ; s quite interesting. We kind of... wow. Then everyone else started, all the white people started moving out and then the area changed to Black. Yeah. And they were nice too. A lot of Black people came into the store. They were, they were fine. They were moving out too with other Blacks. They didn' ; t like moving. So it wasn' ; t... oh God. It wasn' ; t pure Black there. It just where... oh, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Did young people, whoops, young people at that time, were they kind of intermingling at schools? Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. There was a group of guys around the neighborhood. They were called the Boys, Basement Boys. Anna Takada: Basement? Masao Yamaji: Basement Boys. That was they' ; re called, they were called. They were all white guys. Now I know they did a lot of fighting, but I don' ; t know, for some reason we became friends. We, we were friends with the Basement Boys, so we formed groups too, you know? There were, I was in a group called the Lancers, 20, there were 20 some odd guys in the group. Anna Takada: And the Lancers was this mostly a, a JA group? Masao Yamaji: All, all Japanese. There might, there might, there were a few, few white guys that became friendly. Anna Takada: And can you, can you tell me more about these groups? What, what, what was their prompt and their purpose? Masao Yamaji: Social, it was a social activities groups and, and sports too. They had, they formed, we all formed sports groups, football, baseball, and we played, maybe we played against each other. This is all, you know no, no league, just groups of guys playing against each other. Anna Takada: So you had kind of organized any sports event yourselves? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, we did. They organized it. And in fact, they used to, we used go and play Japanese guys on the, on the north side who are, who were doing the same thing. A group of guys. The girls did the same, girls, there were all kinds of girls groups. And then they would, one group would throw a dance and invite whoever to come. Anna Takada: What are some of the names of the groups, if you can remember? Masao Yamaji: God. Oh my God, I can' ; t remember now. The group above us that, that took care of us, they were called the Ro Babes. You remember them? Ro Babes? Yeah. They, we became like their little brothers. And God, they were, my God, who else is there? Vikings? They were the like, oh geez. Wish I could remember them all now. Anna Takada: Do you remember any of the girls groups? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my God. Dawnelles. Oh, there were many. So there' ; s hundreds of, I mean just, oh God. Colettes. Anna Takada: Were there any... Masao Yamaji: There' ; s, there' ; s many groups. Anna Takada: And were there, were there ever any like conflicts, or rivalries between the groups? Masao Yamaji: Conflicts between? Anna Takada: Or was it mostly a friendly kind of organizing? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, you' ; re right. There was no fighting. No fighting among the group other than sport. Anna Takada: Not games. Masao Yamaji: Maybe sport fighting. Yeah. But other than that, there was no fist fights and yeah, anger, no, unless it' ; s something happened at sports. Yeah. But no, we didn' ; t fight each other, other than some crazy fight in a sport, but... Anna Takada: As far as the Lancers, at what point did you join or help? Masao Yamaji: We all joined at high school age. In fact, if, if I found, if befriended someone and they wanted to join a group, well then we, we would initiate them into the group. We didn' ; t have any initiations and stuff like that. Just you became friends with everyone else. Anna Takada: And where, what were some of the places that folks were either playing sports or? Masao Yamaji: Oh, we used to go to, oh God, on... Olivet Institute on the North Side or from, there was, there was a Baptist church on the South Side. God, I can' ; t remember all those places. Mostly the Olivet Institute was a very, very big place. And the Northsiders would go there and, and the south, we came all the way up to the North Side to play at the Olivet Institute, which, which had a lot of leagues and-- girls and boys leagues. And they had people that were taking care of the youth. And it was nice. That was all from JA-- JAC-- JACL. Yeah. Anna Takada: Of course, as you know, in Chicago, there are a number of North Side--South Side rivalries, so to speak, Cubs-Sox, and... Masao Yamaji: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: So was there anything like that with the young people, sort of in those earlier years around the... late forties and fifties? Masao Yamaji: There might have been, maybe fighting, but we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have any group that I, that I remember anyway. Anna Takada: So you, you mentioned, so at that time it must have been Resettlers Committee... Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: That was involved with Olivet Institute. Were there other...? Masao Yamaji: Mhmm. The guy named Abe Hagiwara? I remember him. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a bit about him? Who was he? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, oh, he, he set up so many groups. So much stuff for Japanese youth. Yeah, God. Anna Takada: Do you know what his position was or how he was involved? Masao Yamaji: I have no, I can' ; t remember. Anna Takada: Did you have a relationship with him? Masao Yamaji: No, I didn' ; t. Just, I knew him. Anna Takada: Just knew of him? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: What were some of the other Japanese American organizations or activities that were active at the time? You mentioned there was a lot happening at the Buddhist church, Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: --on the South Side. And you' ; ve mentioned Resettlers Committee. Were there other groups or... Masao Yamaji: I can' ; t remember any other, other, any other groups. Being in the Boy Scouts, I, I know we went to a lot of different churches but... Or to the cemetery, you know, 4th of July and stuff like, things like... some holiday... Anna Takada: With the Boy Scouts? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, with the Boy Scouts. Anna Takada: What would you do at the centers? Masao Yamaji: Just being there, I guess, in uniform and, yeah. Other than that, I can' ; t remember. Anna Takada: And so I think you said that, earlier that your father had O.K. Grocery for about 10 years? Masao Yamaji: I think so, yeah. Yeah he-- Anna Takada: And did your family stay on the South side or... Masao Yamaji: Yes. They preferred to stay on the South side. Now everyone was moving north. Anna Takada: Japanese families? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, Japanese families. A few, few Japanese families stayed on the South Side and they' ; re still you know, still there. But it was, it' ; s not that, so not a racial thing, but became tough, you know? Tough to... The neighborhoods are so scary, right? You don' ; t want to, you don' ; t want to contend with the fighting or whatever, man. So everyone, all the people moved north or west. Anna Takada: But your family stayed? Masao Yamaji: My family stayed. I, when I got married, I, I came north. My wife, my wife liked it on the North Side. She was a Northsider, so... Anna Takada: What year was that, that you got married? Masao Yamaji: 1960. Now, you know in 1960, I came north. We came north. We looked around Andersonville, right around on Berwyn and Clark. There were Japanese living there. And we, we went to one apartment and to look, and to look, and we were looking for apartment. And the, the custodian who showed us around says, he tells us, you know the owner doesn' ; t want any non-Japanese-- I mean non-white, no one. I was surprised. " ; Is that right?" ; " ; Yeah." ; He said, " ; I' ; m sorry." ; I said, " ; Okay" ; . Well, I' ; m telling him, " ; You know, there' ; s Japanese people living around here already." ; Said, " ; I don' ; t know. Okay, that' ; s all right." ; And we just left. But other places I called and they asked, this one lady asked, " ; What is--" ; no, " ; What is your name?" ; and I tell her my name. " ; Where were you born?" ; Where was I born? I said, I tell her, " ; I was born in California." ; " ; Where was your mother born?" ; She went through the whole thing. " ; Where was your father born?" ; I' ; d tell her " ; Wakuba, Japan." ; " ; I don' ; t think you' ; ll like this apartment." ; It' ; s like, I can' ; t believe you' ; re telling me that. All right, that' ; s fine. I don' ; t want to live there then, anyway. So that' ; s what happened in 1960s, not too long ago. That' ; s in the neighborhood where, gosh, you know Toguri' ; s used to be right there on Clark. That, I said, well, that' ; s Chicago. We find out, some, some person on the phone with an accent is telling me they don' ; t want non, non-whites. I said, okay, that' ; s fine. This is 1960. I think I called two or three places. And then we find, I finally call one on Rosemont and Ashland. And the lady says, " ; That' ; s okay." ; Says, " ; We' ; re Japanese." ; Anna Takada: Almost like she-- Masao Yamaji: I told her that I, I' ; m, I' ; m Japanese. " ; We' ; re Japanese." ; She says, " ; That' ; s fine. Come on, I' ; m Japanese." ; " ; Oh, great." ; Anna Takada: Almost like she knew that it could be a challenge for other Japanese to find housing. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. You know that happened to me two times when I was in the Army. Me and a, a black guy, went into, we had a, we were going to a, a base after leave. We went into a bar. It was in St. Louis, I think. Asked for beer, a couple beers, you know, and they wouldn' ; t serve blacks. My God. I get a beer and he, he can' ; t have a beer. Oh, my God. I said, okay, we' ; re just leaving. But that was 19-- That was 19-- when was that-- 1957. And we' ; re in uniform, mind you. Wow. And we went to, we were in Lawton, Oklahoma, which is clo--, right by Fort Sill. Went into Lawton, Oklahoma. We had a, a leave, a, a leave for, for the day. And me and this Black guy, we couldn' ; t, we couldn' ; t, he couldn' ; t go downstairs. He had to go upstairs at the balcony. " ; Are you kidding me?" ; " ; No, darn. I' ; m sorry. Only, only non-blacks, non-blacks can' ; t, only non-blacks go downstairs." ; And I told him, then I, well I said, " ; I' ; m not Black." ; I, so says, you' ; re not, you' ; re not white. I mean, you' ; re not, you' ; re black. In other words, I, I couldn' ; t go upstairs with him. I mean, I, I had to go downstairs, and he-- that was crazy. Lawton, Oklahoma. It was right outside of Fort Sill, Oklahoma. That was 1957. That' ; s what happened to me, man. It was wild. It was wild. That' ; s what happened all over, I guess, with, with people, restaurants and stuff. Anna Takada: So we have a, a few more minutes left, just briefly. So after, so you graduated from Hyde Park High? Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: And, and what year was that? Masao Yamaji: That was 1953. Anna Takada: Okay. And then, so what did you do after you graduated? Masao Yamaji: I was working at my dad' ; s store. I, I went to Chicago Technical College, me and another guy, one of my friends, Jack Wakasa, and we were going to become draftsmen. So I went to school with him there. It was about a year, and I just, I didn' ; t like it. I said, no, I don' ; t think I' ; ll be a draftsman. He went on to become a draftsman. See, that ' ; 58. No wait-- that was ' ; 54 or ' ; 55. And I was working at the store, what else did I-- Anyway, I got drafted in ' ; 57. Yeah. Anna Takada: And how long did you serve? Masao Yamaji: I, so I went to the Army for two years, ' ; 57 to ' ; 59. And I fooled around a while. Went, oh I went to Navy Pier. Not Navy-- Yeah, Navy Pier had a university there. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, I, I studied there. Oh God, what was I doing? I was going to study... Forgot what... It wasn' ; t drafting. I took an accounting class. Draft. Yeah, drafting... No, it wasn' ; t drafting. Art class. Couple classes. Anyway, I went there a year, a year. Then I came, yeah then I started helping my dad again. Anna Takada: Still at the grocery store? Masao Yamaji: Then, then I helped my dad at the grocery store. And then I got a call from the Army, from government. So I, I joined the Army. I was in the Army. Anna Takada: And when you, when you got back, that' ; s when you went to U of I at Navy Pier. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: And then you got married in 1960? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And your wife, how did you know her? Where did you meet? Masao Yamaji: I had known her earlier. I mean, just by name. I didn' ; t, well, we saw each other at social functions. She was, she was friends with other, other, other people that I didn' ; t know, but I did meet her before. But we went bowling. My friend was going on a date with a girl to go bowling. And so he invited me, me and another guy. We, who was that? Jimmy, I think Jimmy. Anyway, Jimmy and me and George. George was going on the date. Well, we all, we tagged along with him. And then her sister was who I met, who we, who eventually we married. Gayle. And then that' ; s when I, I met, really met her going bowling at the Waveland Bowl. Anna Takada: And so just a, a couple of more questions before we wrap up. So you, you came to Chicago at a very young age, and you' ; ve been here since? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Since 10 years old. Wow, man. Anna Takada: And when you think about, I guess, the, the Japanese American community of Chicago over time, in, in how, how has it changed, I guess? Masao Yamaji: Oh, well, you know, when we first got here, we all kind of were, were tight, clan, and we saw more of each other, I think. And then now everyone has spread out, just, just going, you know? They don' ; t just stick around. And I always think it' ; s fantastic how it' ; s too bad we didn' ; t all stick together. But it' ; s fantastic what they' ; ve done and well, I' ; m, I' ; m really proud of the Japanese people. Asians are, Asians are really amazing you know? Yeah I, I look at, I look at my friends and how well they' ; ve done, how well they' ; ve done, and then the offspring, their kids are just amazing. Wow right? Wow. We don' ; t have to worry. We don' ; t have to worry. They' ; ll take, they' ; ll take care of us. Anna Takada: Another thing I wanted to ask you about, you mentioned a couple of anecdotes about racism experienced by yourself, your family, and friends. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: And I' ; m, I' ; m just wondering if you have any thoughts about, I guess-- again, this is kind of a, a then and now type question. But given some of the current political issues-- Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. Oh my God-- Anna Takada: Just some of the different things that have been happening in recent years. As someone who has come from a background, you know your family was incarcerated essentially for being Japanese. Masao Yamaji: Right. Anna Takada: So do you have any, any thoughts or reflections? Masao Yamaji: Oh, I, it scares me to think, it scares me to think all these, all these people, all kinds of people think like our president thinks. Wow, how can they be that way? But it' ; s all, I guess it' ; s always been that way, and then it seems like it' ; s never going to change. And it' ; s just like, nothing has changed in all these years, you know? The racial problems. When we went to Martin Luther King' ; s memorial and think about he was shot--wow my God-- by some goof. And then he, the way he thinks, there' ; s many people still thinking the same way. Nothing has changed in all these years. I don' ; t know what it takes to, for people to wake up. My God. And it seems like it' ; s happening all over the world now, doesn' ; t it? God, what the heck is going on? I don' ; t know how you change it. Man. Anna Takada: One question I like to ask people on sort of the, the last note of this conversation is if you could share or pass down any kind of message or legacy with your children, your grandchildren, what' ; s something that you' ; d really want to, to leave with them? Masao Yamaji: Oh. Oh my God. I guess it' ; s, all we need is more love. Just love each other. God. Oh man. There' ; s so much hate, you know? It' ; s easy, it' ; s easy to hate, man. You don' ; t, we don' ; t know anybody until we meet them, right? Man, there' ; s so many nice people. There' ; s so many good people around. That, that makes you, and it kind of encourages you to think, wow, it' ; ll be all right. Those people are, are here. So I hope. Yeah. I hope it' ; s going to be a better place. It sure doesn' ; t seem-- it' ; s going to be a hell of a job to make it better or keep it better. Because there are good things going on, right? Yeah, I think so. Because I go, you know everyday you meet so many beautiful people. Yeah. I hope it keeps going that way, but I don' ; t know. We gotta, we have to get rid of this Mr. Trump, but there' ; s all kinds of other Trumps. Wow. That' ; s what' ; s scary. Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and-- Masao Yamaji: Oh, yeah, you' ; re welcome. You' ; re welcome. I didn' ; t think I was going to do anything. I said, well, I don' ; t, what am I doing here, you know? Anna Takada: Well, and are, are there any, do you have any last thoughts or anything that I might' ; ve missed in the conversation that you' ; d like to share? Masao Yamaji: Oh, god no I... No. Yeah, you' ; ve been fine. I' ; ve enjoyed it. Anna Takada: Good. Yeah. Thank you again for taking the time. Masao Yamaji: Oh, you' ; re welcome. Yeah, thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamajiMasao20181002.xml YamajiMasao20181002.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Alternate Form of Name
Yamazi
Sanji
Sort Priority
9100
Dublin Core
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Title
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Yamaji, Masao (10/2/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
A nisei born in Los Angeles in 1935, Masao Yamaji was six years old when he, his parents, and three siblings were incarcerated at the Santa Anita racetrack and later sent by train to Rohwer, Arkansas. Too young to recall much from his pre-war life, Masao recalls living in horse stables and attending school on outdoor bleachers at Santa Anita and forging friendships at Rohwer that lasted throughout his life. His father departed Rohwer for Chicago in 1944, with the rest of the family following in 1945. In this interview, Masao shares memories of life on Chicago's South Side, where his father worked first at the Shotwell Candy Company before owning and operating the O.K. Grocery store. Of particular note are Masao's detailed descriptions of products sold in the family's grocery store, his experiences working in the family business, and his description of Japanese American young adult social life in the 1950s. He also discusses the changing racial dynamics in the neighborhood, prejudice he witnessed while serving in the military, and housing discrimination he and his wife experienced in Chicago in the 1960s. He closes the interview by expressing concerns about persistent racism and hate, and his hope that love and goodness will prevail.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-02
Format
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/0d9d18857ec59c82f1d892240d16726d.png
bcae5f4f50429c3b97ad7b883b4bc7cc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Samson, Mary
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SamsonMary20210630.xml
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Tule Lake
No-No Boys
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Death in Camp
Repatriation
Cleveland, OH
Cemeteries--Segregation
Pheoll Manufacturing Company
McLean Trucking Company
Japanese Church of Jesus Christ
Devon Church of Jesus Christ
Steinmetz High School
Resettlers Picnics
Redress
National Council for Japanese Americans Redress (NCJAR)
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/30/2021 Samson, Mary (6/30/2021) 1:24:07 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program and the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Sansei Tule Lake No-No Boys 442nd Regimental Combat Team Death in Camp Repatriation Cleveland, OH Cemeteries--Segregation Pheoll Manufacturing Company McLean Trucking Company Japanese Church of Jesus Christ Devon Church of Jesus Christ Steinmetz High School Resettlers Picnics Redress National Council for Japanese Americans Redress (NCJAR) Samson, Mary Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|23(11)|59(7)|74(1)|86(3)|97(12)|111(10)|118(6)|128(16)|138(1)|145(12)|155(16)|164(12)|174(8)|186(8)|198(4)|206(13)|213(15)|219(17)|226(4)|231(14)|238(5)|247(1)|256(12)|269(8)|280(5)|296(3)|303(4)|310(12)|319(13)|326(13)|336(3)|344(4)|350(15)|366(3)|380(12)|392(11)|405(6)|421(1)|435(4)|445(5)|457(9)|475(8)|493(12)|505(7)|513(5)|521(7)|531(1)|543(3)|553(13)|565(15)|575(8)|588(4)|598(5)|606(4)|615(11)|625(16)|638(6)|646(15)|656(11)|664(7)|672(5)|679(2)|686(12)|694(5)|703(5)|718(6)|725(8)|734(8)|741(6)|748(2)|757(8)|767(16)|776(2)|784(15)|793(4)|802(2)|811(9)|821(11)|833(7)|843(3)|851(12)|861(4)|868(13) 0 https://vimeo.com/812528091/239fa7cbd7 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/812528091?h=239fa7cbd7" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Mary Samson, a sansei born in Chicago in 1955, discusses the impact of incarceration on her parents, grandparents, and other family members and shares about her own experiences growing up in Chicago and participating in the Redress Movement. She shares what she knows of her parents' pre-war lives in Tacoma, Washington and Sacramento, California and their wartime experiences as young adults at Tule Lake. Included in this interview are stories about her father harvesting sugar beets and her mother and uncle securing early release to resettle in Ohio. Her uncle was eventually drafted into the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and died in combat in Italy, after which her mother encountered racist policies at Ohio cemeteries and made arrangements for his burial at a military cemetery at the Rock Island Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois. Attending the burial cost Mary's mother her job and housing in Cleveland, and ultimately resulted in her settling in Chicago and reconnecting with Mary's father. Meanwhile, Mary's maternal grandparents elected to repatriate to Japan with two of their daughters, a decision with long-lasting consequences for the family. Reflecting on these experiences, Mary concludes the interview with an expression of hope that younger generations will continue to learn about incarceration and redress as vital lessons on the fragility of democracy. Emma Saito Lincoln: Today is June 30th, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Mary Samson. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center, in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Thank you for joining me today. Could you start us off please by stating your full name? Mary Samson: Mary Kay Samson. Emma Saito Lincoln: And in what year were you born? Mary Samson: 1955. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were you born? Mary Samson: I was born in Chicago, Illinois. Emma Saito Lincoln: And is Chicago also where you grew up? Mary Samson: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: And where were your parents born and raised? Mary Samson: My father' ; s parents were born in Tacoma, Washington. That' ; s not right. I just realized that. You' ; re asking about my, my parents? Emma Saito Lincoln: Your parents. Mary Samson: My parents. I' ; m so sorry. I' ; m sorry. Emma Saito Lincoln: That' ; s okay. Mary Samson: So, my father was born in Tacoma, Washington, and my mother was born there also. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. And then their parents, where were they born? Mary Samson: They were born in Agenoshō, Japan. So, that' ; s a small town on a small island that' ; s just east of the main island of Honshu. Emma Saito Lincoln: And that' ; s your paternal grandparents. Your father... Mary Samson: And my maternal grandparents... Emma Saito Lincoln: And, all from the same... Mary Samson: Oh, I' ; m sorry. That' ; s my maternal grandparents. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay Mary Samson: My paternal grandparents are from Nishi-Akashi, which is near Kobe. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. So all of your grandparents were born in Japan, but both of your parents were born in the United States? Mary Samson: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. And do you happen to know roughly when your grandparents came to the U.S. on either side? Mary Samson: No. I have that information, but I, I, I cannot recall it offhand. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know where they first settled when they came here? Mary Samson: In Tacoma. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. Do you happen to know what, what they were doing in Japan before they immigrated or what motivated them to immigrate? Mary Samson: I' ; m not really sure. The area that my maternal grandparents are from in Agenoshō, that is a farming and a fishing village. So, that would be my guess is that they were fishermen and farmers. Even, even my paternal grandparents is my guess. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then what were their professions after they immigrated? Mary Samson: In Tacoma, Washington, my paternal grandparents owned a butcher shop. At some point, my maternal grandparents moved from Tacoma to Sacramento. And my maternal grandfather was a barber. Emma Saito Lincoln: And do you know in either Tacoma or in Sacramento, were they part of Japanese American communities? Mary Samson: They had Japanese American friends that they went to school with. My maternal grandparents did not send their children to Japanese language school, but my paternal grandparents did. So my father went to Japanese school on Saturdays, but not my maternal grandparents' ; side. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did your parents talk much about their childhoods? Mary Samson: They talked often about their camp experience. I' ; ve known about that from almost as far back as I can remember. They didn' ; t talk a lot about what life was like before the camp. Emma Saito Lincoln: And so let' ; s transition into that camp period of their lives. And how old were your parents when Pearl Harbor was bombed? Mary Samson: My father was 21, and I believe my mother was 18. Emma Saito Lincoln: So they' ; d both finished high school? Mary Samson: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: And then was your father continuing his education beyond that? Mary Samson: He did go to the College of Puget Sound for a short time, but he, he didn' ; t finish. And many decades later, the College of Puget Sound became the University of Puget Sound and they advertised in the Seattle community and they showed a picture of a small group of Japanese American students from the early war days, and they put out a question asking if anyone knew, knew who those people were. So, my father' ; s older sister who was living in Tacoma sent the newspaper article to me and I wrote to the University of Puget Sound and I said, two of those men are my father, and the other one is his younger brother. And so, then the University of Puget Sound did a wonderful thing and they mailed to me an honorary bachelor' ; s degree for my father and for his younger brother. And, they had, they were, they were commemorating the people at their, at their graduation of this year. And I, I have it somewhere... I can' ; t, I think it was in 2009. They were commemorating their anniversary. And so, they sent me honorary degrees for my father and my uncle, and they sent graduation tassels and a copy of their commencement speech, and, and a letter saying how they were doing this for the 36 Japanese Americans that weren' ; t able to graduate in 1942. It was a very, very touching thing. Emma Saito Lincoln: So your father' ; s college education was disrupted by the war and incarceration. How about your mother? What were her plans after high school? Mary Samson: You know, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think I know them. I guess it' ; s possible that she went from high school very closely thereafter into camp, but I' ; m not sure. Emma Saito Lincoln: So what happened to your family after Pearl Harbor was bombed? Mary Samson: Well, the FBI did come to my father' ; s home. They did interview my grandfather and I actually have the FBI report. And it sounds like one of the reasons that they were looking into him was because they had been sending money to our relatives in Japan, but the FBI said that they didn' ; t consider my grandfather a threat and he was not taken away by the FBI. But, I believe that the butcher shop, the Yakima meat market it was called, had to be sold. And so they did sell it. My father went to Tule Lake, and while he was there, he had earned some money picking sugar beets. And so, one of the stories that he told me was that they would be taken by railroad car out to someplace, and I' ; m not sure if it' ; s Missoula. And then the farmers would come up in their trucks to the railroad car and pick up my father and the workers and then take them out to the fields. And they would earn a small amount of money for doing this, but they would be spending their nights in the railroad car. And the railroad car had armed guards outside of them. And so my father told a story about how after a while he and five of his friends talked, the foreman and the driver of the truck, instead of taking them to the railroad car that day to take, drive them into Missoula to go see a movie about Lou Gehrig and they offered to pay the driver' ; s movie ticket fee. And so they did that and then the foreman drove them back to the railroad car and he says, " ; By this time I thought it was evening" ; . And he said they had to, to knock on the railroad car doors and ask the guards to let them in. And I was always surprised by this, and at the time I was a young teenager when he was telling me the story, I said, " ; Well, why didn' ; t you escape?" ; And he said, " ; Where was I going to go?" ; He said, " ; I have a Japanese face." ; The other thing my father did during the war was, he, he was an ambulance driver, and that was kind of the extent of his working experience during camp. He, he told me about stealing shoes in camp one time, ' ; cause I guess they have an area where they have shoes for sale or whatever from time to time. And, and I was just shocked to hear that from my father, because my father struck me as a, as a pretty law abiding citizen in the way he, he trained us when we were growing up. And, and I said, " ; Well, why, why did you do that?" ; And he said, " ; Well, what were they going to do to me?" ; He says, " ; I' ; m already in prison." ; And after camp, I, I love the stories that my father told about being in camp, because a lot of them are coming of age stories. So he tells stories about when new buses of people were coming for the first time into camp, and he had already been there, that he and his male friends would go and watch the buses unload so they could check out the girls. And I, and I just enjoyed those kinds of stories because, it made his life more personal to me and him more of a person. But he was very unhappy with our, our government for doing what they did. He was a No-No boy. And in the 70s when, when the United States had people taken captive in Iran and he and I were talking about this, he would say to me... And he would say, he would say, those people were luckier than we were. He said, " ; Those people have a country. We did not have a country." ; And so, that was one of the few times when my father sounded extremely bitter to me. Most of the stories that I heard growing up from both of my parents were more of coming of age stories, descriptions of how camp was, and not, not with that kind of bitterness that I had heard from him during the 70s. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did they ever talk about things like what they brought with them to camp or what they had to leave behind? Mary Samson: Yes. Well, in the house that I grew up in, which they bought the year I was born, our dining room table was theirs from Tacoma. And, my family is the only family that I am aware of where they had friends that kept their car and some of their furniture. And after camp, my father and my grandmother returned to Washington. I know they drove the car back across the United States. I don' ; t know how they got the dining room table or... Maybe he, he also brought back a suitcase. We used to have a radio in our garage that had our camp number on it, I think, which is confusing to me, because I didn' ; t think they were allowed to have radios in camp, but... Yeah so, so we did get some things back, but I don' ; t know precisely how. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did they talk about the quality of housing, or the food they ate, or those kinds of daily life type of details? Mary Samson: They didn' ; t talk a lot about that. You know, I was familiar with it from reading, but they themselves didn' ; t talk about that. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, you' ; ve explained about your father and being in Tule Lake. How about your mother? What, where did her family end up? Mary Samson: So, my mother' ; s family were coming from Sacramento, so they ended up in Tule Lake. My mother taught P.E. to other people in the camp while she was there. So, so they were in Tule Lake. But, while the war was going on, there was a time when some people could leave the camp. And so, my, my mother' ; s younger brother, who was the only son in this family, he had talked to my grandparents about leaving and going to Cleveland. And so, he did. And then my mother asked about it and they thought it' ; s better to have two of our children there than just one. And, and there were my uncle who was the youngest and the boy, and three older sisters, and they' ; re all fairly, fairly close in age... I, I take it back. My uncle was the second oldest. I had one aunt, June who was the youngest of the, all four, then Roy, then my mother Rei and her, my, my Aunt Toshiye. So, now in Cleveland is my uncle Roy and my mother and my mother had worked in office work in Cleveland, but she was a live-in cook in Shaker Heights. And so she was considered a house girl. And, my uncle was trying to avoid being drafted. So he kept moving around, but he was drafted. And then once he was drafted, he joined the 442nd. So, then he was trained someplace in the United States. And then at one point, when he knew that he was going to be sent to Europe, my aunt said to me later that he traveled from Cleveland to California where the rest of my family was still in camp, to say goodbye to his parents. But when he got there, he stood outside Tule Lake, outside the fences, and realized with his uniform that that was really going to upset his mother. So he ends up not going in and he ends up being sent to Italy and France. France first, and then Italy. And, I have what appears to be some of the original letters that he sent from, from Europe to my aunt. And what' ; s, what' ; s kind of, what' ; s tragic is that, he died in April of 1945. And, there are some people who believe that in those days, that the U.S. government felt that this 442nd was kind of an expendable battalion and unit. And so these letters, I have two of them, one of them was written two days before he actually died. And so, he dies in a foxhole in Italy with the 442nd, trying to save another battalion or whatever. My mother' ; s living in Cleveland. And I have the original telegram that was sent explaining that my uncle had died and she tried to get a cemetery in Ohio to accept his body when the time came, and couldn' ; t get a cemetery to take his body, because he was of Japanese ancestry. And so, she was finally able to get the Rock Island cemetery in Illinois to accept his body. And my understanding is that is a military cemetery. And so, the government gave her a very short time period to... After his body was brought back, the government gave my mother a very short time period to do... Of notification of when they were going to have a service for my uncle. And so the family story is, she told the family that she was working with, that she wanted this short time off so she could attend the service and that they told her no, they were having a party that day and that if she wasn' ; t going to be there to work the party, then she would be fired. And that eventually meant that she lost not just her job, but her home. So she leaves the Shaker Heights area to attend the service of her brother, my uncle in Rock Island. And so now she has no home, and I guess she was doing something in the Chicago area and met someone who ended up letting her stay with them for three weeks or a few weeks. And then she somehow runs into my father. She and my father had known each other since elementary school in Tacoma. And that' ; s the story of how my mother at least resettled in Chicago. My father' ; s family had come from the camps to the Chicago area. But they had actually looked around at Florida and some other areas to resettle, but I' ; m not sure exactly why they, they settled in Chicago for a time. My father lived at the Y. But... Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know if his whole family came together, or did they, did one of them come first and then the others joined? Mary Samson: This is my father you' ; re talking about? Emma Saito Lincoln: Yes. Mary Samson: Some of them I think came at different times. Because his younger, his... I' ; m sorry, his older sister had married prior to camp, I believe. And so I think, their family came at a different time, even though they were at Tule Lake. His older sister... His oldest sis-- Well, no. I think she' ; s the second oldest sister, never went to camp. And this was an interesting story. So from Tacoma, she was married and they learned about, I, I want to say a sugar beet farmer in the Tacoma area that was looking for help to work and harvest his crops. And so somehow instead of going to camp, they had the choice of working on this farm. And so, that' ; s what his, one of his older sisters and her husband did. And then when the war ended, they chose to stay working on the farm because that was very close to the harvesting of the beet time. And so, they stayed on and so, so there' ; s people there that did something else, and never... From the West Coast didn' ; t enter a camp when their siblings did. Emma Saito Lincoln: If you don' ; t mind a little bit, I' ; d like to back up to this incredibly heartbreaking story that, that you shared about your uncle who served in the, the 442nd. And just to clarify, so it' ; s your understanding that he' ; s buried in a military cemetery at the Rock Island Arsenal? Mary Samson: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Is that correct? Mary Samson: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Okay. And what was his name? Mary Samson: His name was Roy Ota. And, I know that he was buried there. Various members of my family visited the grave site and his younger sister, my aunt June, decades later visited and sought to have his remains disinterred, because she was thinking of having them sent to California. And this was after my mother and my aunt had died, so that there were no immediate other family members living. But Rock Island said that it was not in good condition and that was not a good idea. So, so that family war story is kind of interesting. So, so now my mother is living by herself in Shaker Heights or Cleveland, and she can only afford to take care of herself. And that' ; s why her other two sisters were still in Tule Lake, because she couldn' ; t afford to support anybody else. My uncle who died, he worked on a railroad and some other kind of steel kind of a job so he could earn a living himself. So back in Tule Lake, my aunt June is a minor living with her parents, my grandparents, and their older sister. And now, the war has ended and my maternal grandparents decide to go from the camps back to Japan. And what really tipped the scale for them was the death of their only son. So not only had they been imprisoned and incarcerated, but then our government sends their only son and he' ; s dead. And so, that was the tipping point. So they decide to go back to Japan, and they have two daughters, one of whom is a minor. My aunt June, at the time I believe was 16. So, neither of my aunts in Tule Lake had ever been to Japan, and they don' ; t want to go to Japan. But my older aunt was more compliant. And my younger aunt June, while they' ; re in Tule Lake, they have friends, a family in Tule Lake that they knew from Sacramento. Because, that family had at least one, one daughter that was the same age as my aunt June and they were friends. And this family said, when the war ends, we are going to go from Tule Lake back to Sacramento, we will adopt you. You can live with us. So, now my aunt is refusing to go and the camps are run by the military. And so, they' ; re confounded because they don' ; t know what to do, because they have a minor American citizen who' ; s refusing to go to Japan at the war' ; s end. So, my aunt said they had like a military trial and that they brought in an attorney from Washington and that he was talking to her. And at one point, he brought my aunt aside and he said, " ; Your mother, your mother is very distraught and there' ; s no telling what she will do to herself, if you continue to refuse to go to Japan." ; And so, that was when my aunt June decided, " ; Okay. I will go to Japan." ; So, the four of them go to, back to the Agenoshō in Japan area, I believe, but I guess it' ; s possible that they went someplace else in Japan. And so years pass, and now it' ; s 1948 or ' ; 49, and my aunt is trying desperately to come back to the United States, but she, she doesn' ; t have a passport. And so, she' ; s writing to our government and it' ; s taking time. We happen to have a distant relative who in the 30s... Well, before the 30s, this man was born in California, but in the 30s went to Japan and married a Japanese native. He was working for the American government all during the war and I believe the occupation and beyond. And so, she asked him for help. And so I have the letter that he' ; s writing on her behalf and he' ; s a captain in the military, and I bel-- believe he might have been in intelligence, because he was bilingual and he' ; s saying, " ; This is the situation. And, in January she had originally applied for a passport. It' ; s taking too long. You need to speed the process up." ; Shortly after that letter is written, my aunt gets a passport. And so, I think it' ; s fall or September of ' ; 49, she comes to the United States. She' ; s the only passenger on this cargo ship. She' ; s the only female. It takes weeks. She' ; s sick the whole time. But she said everyone, the crew and all the people treated her very well. She makes her way to Chicago... First she actually goes to Cleveland, and then to Chicago and starts working and becomes a student at Roosevelt University. And from what I gathered, Roosevelt University at the time was one of the few colleges and universities that would accept people of color. Between Roosevelt University and various... University of Illinois and other places, she becomes a CPA. And she' ; s a CPA in Chicago. And then, she chooses to get transferred to Glendale, California. When I was a young girl, I thought people in my family said that she was the first woman of Japanese ancestry CPA west of the Rockies. When I was much older and I asked my aunt about that, she said, she said she didn' ; t, she didn' ; t think she was the first woman, but maybe the first female nikkei CPA west of the Rockies. She then lived in California for the rest of her life. Emma Saito Lincoln: And your maternal grandparents, did they stay in Japan for the remainder of their lives? Mary Samson: They did. They did. Emma Saito Lincoln: Was your mother ever able to visit them in Japan? Mary Samson: No. My mother never in her life went to Japan. My grandmother... So I' ; m growing up in Chicago and I' ; ve never met my maternal grandparents. So when I was about 13, my grandmother came to visit. My grandfather had died long ago. He died shortly after they arrived in Japan. He was much older than she was. So she visited and stayed with us for a few months. I think she came in September and after a few months left. And so she returned, and that was really the only time that my mother had seen her mother, because she only visited Chicago that one time. Emma Saito Lincoln: What was that like for you to meet your grandmother for the first time? Mary Samson: It was, it was great. She had learned English, and she, she had, we had written letters, ' ; cause she would write me letters in English and I would write her back. She was a very, very positive, warm, pleasant, fun, fun kind, kind of woman. That was, that was a great experience. Emma Saito Lincoln: And your paternal grandparents, were they in Chicago the whole time when you were growing up? Mary Samson: Yes, yes. My grandfather, my paternal grandfather died. I believe it was the year that I was born, but my grandmother lived quite a long time after that. But she, when I was growing up and when I could speak to her, by that time she didn' ; t speak English. And so, she had lost her English speaking ability. My father said that when they were in camp, she had a job delivering the mail, because her English was so good. But all the time in my life, she spoke very, very little. Almost, almost no English. I, I could not have a conversation with her. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, would your father speak to her in Japanese? Mary Samson: You know, my parents spoke some kind of conversational Japanese. They would speak on their phone to their friends. So, you know, and I have no idea how my mother learned Japanese, but she did learn some. So yes, they had some kind of conversational ability, but they would not teach us hardly any Japanese, because they believed that what they spoke was American, Americanized Japanese, they feel, or they felt that the Japanese language is very proper, that it' ; s a very bad thing to use the wrong honorifics, and they are correct in that belief. And so when I was growing up, I think I knew 20 words in Japanese. Emma Saito Lincoln: But it sounds like that decision not to teach you perhaps came more from a place of concern, that they wouldn' ; t be teaching it to you properly as opposed to desire not to pass on Japanese heritage or desire to assimilate, I guess is... Mary Samson: Yes. Yes, definitely. I, I definitely think they did not want us to be embarrassed or learn, learn improper Japanese. I really felt that that was clearly the motive. Emma Saito Lincoln: But you did grow up hearing it around you a little bit? Mary Samson: A little bit. You know, I, I knew the words that a lot of people growing up learned, and they were learns that mean, ' ; be quiet' ; , ' ; you' ; re a bother' ; , ' ; don' ; t say that' ; , ' ; this is dangerous' ; . Those are the kinds of words that, that I grew up, that I grew up with. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, let' ; s, let' ; s focus on your parents for a little bit. You mentioned that they knew each other from childhood and then they were both in Tule Lake. Did they, did they know each other in Tule Lake? Mary Samson: I never heard them talk about knowing each other in Tule Lake. So, I don' ; t know if they... I don' ; t how much they were in touch with each other. My understanding was that they went to the same grammar school, but different high schools because my mother graduated from Sacramento High School. So, so that, that is kind of a mystery to me and I, and I don' ; t know about that. Emma Saito Lincoln: And at what point did they get married? Mary Samson: They got married early. I think it was 1949 in Chicago. Emma Saito Lincoln: And h-how did they reunite? Do you know? Mary Samson: It sounded to me like that weekend that my mother had been in the Chicago area because of the proximity to Rock Island, that maybe somehow through other people they knew, maybe they, they reunited. And that was, that was my, my understanding. Emma Saito Lincoln: And during those early post-war years, what were they doing in Chicago? Were they both working? Mary Samson: Well, that' ; s an interesting question. My father at one point was working for the Pheoll Screw Company, and I don' ; t know what he did for them. I' ; m not aware that once my mother married my father and we were young, I don' ; t remember my mother working. Interesting... Emma Saito Lincoln: And that Pheoll Screw Company, how do you spell Pheoll? Mary Samson: It' ; s like P-H-O-E-L-L or something like that? I have documents at home that have you know... I have little Christmas programs that you know... So I, I know exactly where you know, the name of the Pheoll, I just can' ; t remember offhand. But for most of my life, he worked for the McLean Trucking Company, and that was on the south side in Oak Lawn I believed. And for... For most of the, my life that I can remember, he was working for that trucking company. But I do think for a part of my lifetime, he was actually working for the screw company and then transferred or moved. Emma Saito Lincoln: And you mentioned that he at one point was living at the Y. Where else did they live in their years before you were born? Mary Samson: Yeah, I don' ; t know. My grandparents had an apartment building on Chicago Avenue, so that' ; s where my grandparents were living. I know that my, my parents lived in a house on Albany Avenue in Chicago, but I don' ; t know if they rented or owned, I' ; m guessing they rented that house. So, I don' ; t know much about that. My dad was a clerk. He was, he was some kind of clerk for the trucking company, and I don' ; t remember my mother working at all when I was growing up. Emma Saito Lincoln: Your grandparents' ; apartment building, they owned that? Mary Samson: Yes. Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know the precise location or maybe the cross street? Mary Samson: I want to say 1359 West Chicago Avenue. Emma Saito Lincoln: And what were their names? Your grandparents? Mary Samson: My grandmother' ; s name was Ichi Omori, and her husband' ; s name was Ji-Ichi Omori. Emma Saito Lincoln: And did they still have that building when you were growing up? Mary Samson: Yes. Yes, they, and my grandmother lived there for a long, long time. Emma Saito Lincoln: Who did they rent to? Was it mostly other Japanese Americans? Mary Samson: I don' ; t know about the mostly part. Now, the, the renters that I knew were Japanese Americans and some of them were family friends of ours. And then, I think there had to be other people who were not, but I' ; m just guessing that. I' ; m just guessing, guessing that. I didn' ; t know the other renters except the ones that we were friendly with, and they were Japanese American. Emma Saito Lincoln: Could you describe the building for me? Was it a very large building with lots of apartments or... Mary Samson: To me, it had a fair number of apartments. I have seen the building, and it' ; s, it' ; s not large. For some reason, I think there was retail on the first floor and then apartments second floor. And, I don' ; t know how many floors this building was. I' ; m guessing maybe three, somewhere between three and five maybe? But if there was retail on the first floor, I don' ; t know, I, I can' ; t even remember what it, what it would be. And so, I' ; m not sure what was on the first floor, but for some reason I didn' ; t think were, we were, there were apartments. And as a kid, my sister and I, we grew up on the way Northwest part of Chicago. I remember taking the bus, my sister and I, and for, to earn money, we would, we would clean the hallways. We would, we would dust and mop them. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, let' ; s talk a little bit then about where you grew up on the way West side and what, what kind of a neighborhood did you grow up in? Mary Samson: It seemed to be like an Italian, Polish American neighborhood. My family integrated the grammar school that we went to for years. So I have an older, I have two older sisters and a younger brother. By the time I was like... You know so these, these schools are Chicago public schools, kindergarten through eighth grade. And so I think from about seventh grade on, the city had bused in some African American families. So... And I don' ; t remember any... To my knowledge, problems amongst the students. I do know that the, the idea of busing students into this neighborhood is very controversial. And one weekend, somebody went into my grammar school and burned some things and spray-painted, you know, six foot letters in the hallway. " ; We oppose busing and Lane" ; , Lane being the name of the principal at the time. But, that didn' ; t interrupt our school we-- our education. We went in and I remember our books and things. They smelled, they were smoked. They smelled like they had been in a smoking thing. You know, I think I was very lucky, because I, I had friends, I was invited to parties. I, I never felt amongst the high school... I mean not the high school, the grammar school people and my friends, I never felt that... You know, I never had people say racist comments to me. Now, now, that did happen to me like my first Girl Scout meeting, but not in my school. And in fact, the opposite kind of thing happened. We, we had a, a Caucasian... You know, so my school' ; s mostly Caucasian, and we had a, a Caucasian boy move in from California. And I remember some of the other boys you know, telling me you know, how horrible it was, because that boy wore blue jeans, you know, stuff like that. But I feel very lucky. I, I had racist things taunted and said to me by, in our, in our neighborhood when I was walking someplace, even with my mother present, by other children. But, it, it' ; s it' ; s amazing to me that in my neighborhood school... And I, I think that' ; s maybe a very unique experience, that I was lucky. Emma Saito Lincoln: So it' ; s fair to say you felt safe at school and not targeted at school. But outside of school, you were very much aware of your difference? Mary Samson: I, I was aware. I didn' ; t feel unsafe because it didn' ; t happen to the extent that I felt unsafe, but, but I certainly knew things that people could say to people ' ; cause they said them to me, but it, but it wasn' ; t people I knew or people that I went to school with. And the same thing in my high school. So then my high school again, people were bused in from different parts of Chicago, but not too large numbers of people. And so, these schools were overwhelmingly Caucasian and I didn' ; t exper-- experience any kind of, that I, that I recall, racist comments then. Emma Saito Lincoln: How about social activities and dating for instance, was it possible to date across racial lines at that time? Mary Samson: In, well, in high school, in high school, you know, people asked me out and I, and I dated people. I don' ; t remember other Asians. So I went to Steinmetz High School, which had about 3000 people at the time. So, so there was like a couple handfuls of African American people, I don' ; t remember Asian. I remember only remember one other Asian person, and, and she was a girl. So, and then because I grew up on the way west side of Chicago and my parents didn' ; t belong to other organizations like the JACL or whatever, so we, you know I had friends who were, who were my age, but they were, they were only because they were friends... Their parents were my parents' ; friends. And so we played together and we did things together, but we were going to different schools. And so, we were really only together when, when our families got together. Emma Saito Lincoln: So, you, were you aware that there was a larger Japanese American community out there, or were you not even aware beyond the set of friends that your parents had? Mary Samson: I think I was vaguely aware. Way back when I was an infant, my parents went to the Devon Church of Jesus Christ, it was called at the time, because it was located almost directly across the street from my parents-- my grandparents' ; apartment building. And so my sisters went to Sunday school, but I was in the nursery. And so, I would, I would hear stories about Sunday school, but I wasn' ; t old enough to go. And then, the way I remember it, when I was old enough to go to Sunday school, the church moved to Devon Avenue and changed their name to Devon Church of Jesus Christ, I think. And I don' ; t really know why, but my parents stopped attending. So, and I was aware, I think from other things, of more Japanese enclaves, like we, we bought all our groceries from York Super Foods on Clark Street, you know, which is near the Star Market and the other places. And so, I had somewhat of an awareness, but, but I didn' ; t really know other people. Emma Saito Lincoln: And you said your parents were not members of organizations like JACL. Did they participate in any community activities when you were growing up? Mary Samson: We did go to the Resettlers picnic. Wow, I think for many years. And I remember being a little girl and loving, loving the, the two-legged races. And my cousin says that at one time there were like a 1000 people at those picnics and, and they were huge and I loved them. Because the, the games were so much fun and we would go there with... And I, I' ; m not sure if we were there with my other relatives, but, but I loved those games, I loved, I loved things like we went to the Natsu Matsuri at the Buddhist temple of Chicago. And again, I loved the games, and, and, and being around other people like me and the whole different flair of it, because it' ; s Japanese themed. So, those, those were things that I, that I absolutely loved. So I was aware of those things but... And we would, we would see you know, lots of people that we knew. But, it just never... I, I don' ; t know why my parents chose not to join those organizations. I don' ; t know for what reason. Emma Saito Lincoln: For someone like me who' ; s not from Chicago and, and didn' ; t experience those sorts of events, could you describe for me what, what they were like? You' ; ve mentioned games and three-legged races. What kind of food did you eat? Mary Samson: You know, offhand, I can' ; t remember on, on those... Well, at least for the Resettlers, I can' ; t remember. But my guess is that we packed picnic lunches. And then, you know my mom made just fantastic obentos. I mean she made all kinds of sushi. She made all kinds of chicken teriyakis and you know, the potato salads and stuff like that. We had green tea in thermoses. Sometimes we had udon in thermoses. I, I loved going and in the, in the park where the Resettlers picnic was, which I' ; m, which I' ; m guessing is, I mean, I don' ; t know if it was Caldwell Woods or which one of those, but I was, I was, I was, too young, but my cousins were teenagers. And so as the evening went on, especially, they had, they were playing records and music, so you could hear all great kinds of music. And they were dancing under the pavilion with Nehi sodas and Coca-Colas by the case. And I just thought that was really neat. And they had prizes, and, and raffle prizes and you know, they were always announcing things over the loudspeakers. It was just a very, it was a very safe, I didn' ; t feel like we were watched very closely by my parents. It was a fun time. Emma Saito Lincoln: I' ; m curious to know, if Japanese American history is something that was ever brought up in your school setting? You mentioned that your parents spoke openly about it throughout your childhood, so you were aware of the history, but do you recall ever learning about it at school? Mary Samson: No, I don' ; t believe so. And so, so somewhere around when I was high school age, I read a book. I think my father had one book on the camp experience, and I read that book. And so when we had to write term papers in high school, I chose to write my high s-- my, my term paper about that topic. But no, I don' ; t remember ever learning about that, even in high school other than the fact that I was writing my term paper about it. Emma Saito Lincoln: And when you were around other Japanese Americans, it' ; s a little bit unusual that you had parents who spoke openly about the experience. I' ; ve heard many other Sansei tell me that their Nisei parents never spoke of camp or spoke very little of camp. Was that ever confusing for you when you were around other Japanese Americans, that, that you maybe knew more about what had happened than they did? Mary Samson: You know we didn' ; t, I don' ; t recall talking about camp all that much. Now, some of my parents' ; closest friends were from Colorado and Hawaii. So, I don' ; t think they were in camp. And so, so I don' ; t remember that. And, and, and people have, people have different, different interpretations. And so, my, my father' ; s younger brother was always joking. He was always smiling and making jokes about everything possible and laughing. And, and some of the jokes to me were a little, were a little odd, but he was you know, he, he just struck me as a very happy, fun-loving kind of guy. And he used to say when the, when the... He, and he used to surprise me because he would say things like, " ; Oh, camp was the best time of my life" ; , and, and never kind of elaborate. And so, I didn' ; t know the man well, I don' ; t know why he was saying that, but there' ; s just all different, all different kinds of viewpoints. You know all of my relatives were in camp. I had cousins born in camp, I had cousins die in camp. And so, so you know, that whole camp experience is just... For, for most people, I think it' ; s very fraught and very difficult. But... Emma Saito Lincoln: Do you know much about, about death in camp? Mary Samson: Well, my, my father' ; s, one of his older sisters' ; sons died in camp. I think he was, I want to say about five? I thought it was from lead poisoning, but I' ; m not sure. So, that' ; s incredibly horrific. That' ; s an incredibly horrific experience. So it' ; s, so the, the whole camp experience, I think devastated a lot of people' ; s lives way beyond camp. So, so going back to my maternal grandparents. So against her kind of, basically against her will, my younger aunt and her older aunt went, went with my maternal grandparents to Japan. My aunt June, that went against her will was so angry at her older sister for not sticking up for her position with my grandparents. I don' ; t know that they spoke to each other, especially when they both ended up coming back and living in the Chicago area. I, I don' ; t recall ever seeing them in the same room. I don' ; t think, I don' ; t think my younger aunt spoke to my older aunt. So, so here you have great rifts of things that were caused by that. You know my maternal grandparents went, went, returned to Japan, that wouldn' ; t have happened if their son... So, it' ; s just a, it' ; s just a very convoluted experience about how, I' ; m struck by how people' ; s lives, way after the camp ended... How, how tied up, how tied up they were. My aunt remained very close to that family that had offered to adopt, very close to her friend, and that' ; s why my aunt moved from Glendale to Sacramento. But, it, it is just incredible to me the amount of...that experience. Other people who died in camp... Of my family, I guess, I guess it would be, that only cousin. I knew of people from my readings that died in camp. There' ; s a story that my grandfather was attacked in camp by an altercation with a guy who was dating my oldest aunt. My, my grandfather had to be hospitalized. He was stabbed with a knife repeatedly. So, the camp experience for my aunt was, was just very unhappy. She was a very bright woman. She wasn' ; t happy with the education experience that she received. So, those are, those are stories that are part of my family lore in history. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you observed within your own family, patterns of behavior that you think could be attributed to the trauma of being in camp? Mary Samson: I think my father was extremely cautious about never being on the wrong side of the law. He, I, he took great pains to, to make sure... You know, like, like never driving, barely above the speed limit and taking all kinds of precautions like that. When things happened that were unfortunate, sometimes I think, I think he turned the other eye. You know, I do remember a time when my family was going on vacation. We were, we were going to go to Canada for a few days and we had put our luggage in the car. I don' ; t remember how old I was, but when we got to the Canadian border, border beyond Detroit, they, they wouldn' ; t allow us to enter Canada for longer than 24 hours because we didn' ; t have passports. So at that time, my, my parents have driver' ; s license. My dad has a driver' ; s license stating that he is an American citizen, but we, we, we just crossed the border, we spent a couple hours and we came back. So, it' ; s an interesting question that you ask. And I hadn' ; t thought about it relative so much to the camp experience and my father seeing the FBI question his, his father, but my guess is that all those things had, had an impact. Emma Saito Lincoln: Did your grandparents talk much? Your, your paternal grandparents? Well, I suppose your grandmother who lived near you, about the impact that it had on her? Mary Samson: I could never have a conversation with her because... Well, first of all, she had Parkinson' ; s disease, she was only speaking Japanese, she wasn' ; t, she wasn' ; t very verbal. My, and my grandfather had died the year I was born. So, I was having no, no conversations with, with my grandparents. Emma Saito Lincoln: Have you, or has anyone in your family participated in a, in a pilgrimage event? Mary Samson: To the camps do you mean? Emma Saito Lincoln: Yeah. Mary Samson: Yes. Yes. So, I have some, some cousins and they have been through JACL and on their own separately, they have been to many of the camps. And I have, so I have multiple cousins that have visited some of the camps. Mostly Tule Lake, the ones who lived in California. I' ; m going to be going to Heart Mountain this summer. But my, my parents, they did the reunions, but those were the reunions that didn' ; t take place at camp. So... Actually I have to think about that. I know, I know my aunt had been to reunions, like you know when Poston, would have a reunion, or... And I' ; m trying to think, ' ; cause I don' ; t want to confuse my aunt with my parents about going to those kinds of reunions. But yeah, many of my relatives have, have visited. Those and one of my relatives that married into my family has a relative that actually lives in... I forget if it' ; s, it' ; s out West, if it' ; s in California or Idaho? I think it' ; s in California where there were some camp barracks, or buildings that the government for a time allowed people to buy them and live with them as long as you can agree to live in there for 10 years or whatever. So, so one of my relatives that married-in relatives, lives in one of those. Emma Saito Lincoln: That' ; s astonishing. Do you think... Beyond language, do you think your parents took steps to maybe diminish the Japaneseness of your upbringing intentionally? Mary Samson: That would not surprise me. That would not surprise me. So they had friends who were... When I was growing up, we had friends who were Latino or Hispanic speaking, and of that culture. We had lots of Caucasian friends, and we had a, a small handful of Japanese American friends. But, and I' ; m trying to think of the reason, but I do think, I think my parents were very quiet about some things. For example, we never, we never talked about racism the way some parents now talk to their kids about it. So when, when I went to my first Girl Scout meeting with a Caucasian friend and everybody else was Caucasian, and this, this Caucasian girl asked me a racist question, but she did it very benignly and she didn' ; t do it with venom. But I knew that what she was talking about was the fact that I was different from them. And so I told, I told my mother, and she, I don' ; t remember her saying anything. And I remember when my dad came home from work or whenever, ' ; cause my, my dad worked half of a day shift and half of a night shift. When we saw him next, she asked me to repeat it, and I did. And, I don' ; t really remember any of them saying anything. Now that doesn' ; t mean they didn' ; t say anything, I just don' ; t remember. And so I don' ; t, so it, it wouldn' ; t surprise me if... And, and they, you know, my mother was more vocal in some ways, and she, she, she seemed to me less bitter than my father. But, she would, she would tell me things about... Rude things that other women said to her when she was living for a time in Cleveland, and, so, but, but there was never a, a direct conversation about racism. And, and the fact that they weren' ; t talking about it, I think made me think it' ; s not something that I should be talking about. So, but, but that' ; s a very interesting comment, and I would, I would certainly think so. Emma Saito Lincoln: How does that make you feel? Mary Samson: Well, it' ; s tricky. It' ; s tricky. I had a very good relationship with my parents. I, I think it was from, from something about my dad talking about not having a country. My dad was class-- reclassified as an alien when he was in the camps. I think it was my conversations from him that got me interested in things like, like Redress. And so... I don' ; t feel particularly, now that I' ; m so much older, you know, I, I don' ; t look back at them with any disappointment, but I think it tells me more about them. But, but it did spark my interest in Redress, and that was a very meaningful thing in my life and a very momentous thing in my life. So, there is something that, you know how good things can kinda come out of bad things. So in, in the early 80s I believe it was, when the, the Congress established the commission that went to various places in the United States. So, I have a photograph of my dad and my, my brother and my sister and I sitting, sitting there. And we, it was, it was during those commission hearings when those commission hearings went on from, like I don' ; t know, nine or ten in the morning until four in the afternoon. And they would take breaks. And so we would be standing outside just you know, having coffee and having to meet people. And, it was during those impromptu meetings that I met people and you know, we talked about, " ; Well, what can we as citizens do?" ; And so this group of people, we formed the Chicago Ad Hoc Redress Committee. And so my sister was part of it. I was a little bit more active. And unfortunately to my knowledge, I don' ; t know anybody else who was living because most of the people were Nisei and, or Nisei age. Because some of the people had never been incarcerated. They were Caucasian people who were standing up for Redress and African American people who were standing up for Redress and other non-Japanese American people. So we formed this, this committee and we raised money and we put on programs. And to my knowledge, that was the first February 19th, Day of Remembrance Day was the one that this group put on. And we, and we did it at Heiwa Terrace and we raised a, a bunch of money. And unfortunately, that group shortly thereafter disassembled, and, and I can' ; t remember exactly what the rift was, but I think it was over where to put the money that we had just earned or raised. And so some of us wanted to participate and helped fund the National Council for Japanese American Redress, which was seeking legal action through a class action lawsuit. And my guess is that other people did not want to go that route. Because at the same time, there was a group of people largely sponsored by, I believe the JACL, that wanted to seek redress through legislative action, a redress bill. And that' ; s the, that, the bill that ultimately did pass congress. But, because of attending those hearings, so I became involved in Redress and I was very active for about six years with the National Council of Japanese American Redress. And so when this class action lawsuit went and sat in front of the Supreme Court, I mean, it was remarkable in my life, how many people do you know, get to sit in the second row of the Supreme Court of the United States and hear a case argued, where I knew many of the plaintiffs. And Thurgood Marshall was on the Supreme Court at that time. And at that time, the Supreme Court was meeting in a different building that they meet today. So this building, I don' ; t know that it could hold 200 people. So, it was a much more intimate setting. It was, it was, it was... And, and attending were people that to me were infamous. People who had had lawsuits against the government way before. So, Fred Korematsu and his wife was present, and Gordon Hirabayashi and authors of many books on redress like Michi Weglyn and Aiko Herzig and her husband and Peter Irons. And, so we took photographs outside the Supreme Court building, and it' ; s, you know I get, I get chills just thinking about it. So, so there' ; s something that is to me is kind of a legacy of my parents. And it wasn' ; t like they ever suggested that I should do something. They, they never, they were never pushy or even assertive that way. They were very kind of... You find your own way kind of people. Emma Saito Lincoln: Maybe as a way to wrap things up, we could take what you just spoke about and maybe share your thoughts about how that carries through today? Mary Samson: You mean with me or just in, the world in general? Emma Saito Lincoln: Both, both. For you personally, but also for the, maybe for the Japanese community or what you hope to see from the Japanese American community today? Mary Samson: Well, I, I like to think that the Japanese American community is coming more together and being more unified. In a lot of ways I think they are. I think, I think because so much time has passed and people are older, I like to think there' ; s less divisions related to how to go about that Japanese American redress issue, because the Japanese American community is no different than any other community. Whether it' ; s, it' ; s a, it' ; s a Caucasian community an African American community, Hispanic, there' ; s no one monolith, monolithic voice for any group of people. And so, there are divisions and it doesn' ; t mean that one division is right or one division is wrong. It' ; s just that there are varying, varying opinions of how to perhaps get to the same goal. And so, I, I think it' ; s great what the JACL and other community groups are doing to encourage that younger people become aware of the incarceration experience and the Redress experience, because I think that' ; s vital to carry that on. But also, about various groups and participants standing up for migrant families' ; experiences and other, other groups. And I think, I think all of that is wonderful and positive. And I think it' ; s so important because, democracy is a very fragile thing. And, you know, look how fragile it was in my parents' ; time and you' ; re talking one generation away. How very fragile that is and how very fragile it is today. And so, you know, democracy is something that we need to treasure, we need people to be educated, and to constantly be aware of and encourage all people of all ages to be aware of, to be as involved as, as possible, to preserve and protect it. I think it' ; s, I think it' ; s very endangered in this country and around the world, especially today. So, it' ; s a very passionate subject for me, and it' ; s just amazing how it has, it has just come to play out over the years. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that. My last question for you is, what motivated you to participate in this oral history project? Mary Samson: Oh, I, I fear that not enough will be kept and known and remembered about the experience of that first wave of Japanese immigrants. I think, I think their story is remarkable. There' ; s lots of various avenues of the incarceration experience that is remarkable from all levels. From, from a coming of age, from a, just a humanitarian level. And, and I just, I welcome other people' ; s interests. I' ; m, I' ; m excited when I go to events from small to large, and I see teenagers you know, selling books and, and recruiting people to be involved or to go visit the, you know the pilgrimage experience or just to be involved, because I think it' ; s vital. And, and I fear that it will, it will be something that will be lost. And, and not out of any, any generation' ; s direct motivation to not keep this experience, but just over time and, and sometimes intermarriage, I don' ; t have children. Just, just that whole idea of keeping an important part of history as alive as possible. And I appreciate so much, all the things that the Japanese American Service Committee has done for my family and my relatives in the past and through today. Emma Saito Lincoln: Thank you very much. I appreciate so much your participation and the stories that you shared with us today. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SamsonMary20210630.xml SamsonMary20210630.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project
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Samson, Mary (6/30/2021)
Description
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Mary Samson, a sansei born in Chicago in 1955, discusses the impact of incarceration on her parents, grandparents, and other family members and shares about her own experiences growing up in Chicago and participating in the Redress Movement. She shares what she knows of her parents' pre-war lives in Tacoma, Washington and Sacramento, California and their wartime experiences as young adults at Tule Lake. Included in this interview are stories about her father harvesting sugar beets and her mother and uncle securing early release to resettle in Ohio. Her uncle was eventually drafted into the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and died in combat in Italy, after which her mother encountered racist policies at Ohio cemeteries and made arrangements for his burial at a military cemetery at the Rock Island Arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois. Attending the burial cost Mary's mother her job and housing in Cleveland, and ultimately resulted in her settling in Chicago and reconnecting with Mary's father. Meanwhile, Mary's maternal grandparents elected to repatriate to Japan with two of their daughters, a decision with long-lasting consequences for the family. Reflecting on these experiences, Mary concludes the interview with an expression of hope that younger generations will continue to learn about incarceration and redress as vital lessons on the fragility of democracy.
Date
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2021-06-30
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video
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Series: Oral History Project
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/703b6711e756d50bc07b57c954693dee.png
5c442ecfc5a3840ccd45056543dbe83a
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPIsseiAQualityForSurvival.xml
Interview Keyword
Issei
Immigration
Incarceration
Resettlement
Picture Brides
Loyalty Questionnaire
Racism
OHMS Object Text
5.4 1975 Issei: A Quality for Survival 0:27:59 JASC_IGP Issei Gerontology Project Films Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Digitized with support from the Gaylord and Dorothy Donnelley Foundation. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Issei Immigration Incarceration Resettlement Picture Brides Loyalty Questionnaire Racism Katsuno, Chie Maeda, Shitsuke Hayano, Mieki Sakamoto, Sanjiro Shimizu, Tase Hama, Hideo Monma, Fumiyo Mukai, Chiyoko Orita, Natsu Sato, Kiku Kono, Rev. Gyodo video 1:|12(2)|22(1)|33(13)|46(1)|57(1)|64(9)|82(7)|96(1)|107(1)|116(1)|126(2)|134(10)|145(10)|157(1)|169(1)|181(6)|192(4)|203(7)|211(15)|224(1)|227(12)|237(6)|246(14)|255(14)|261(3)|267(8)|274(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/367510998/b82fb21fea Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/367510998?h=b82fb21fea" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film traces the journey of first generation Japanese immigrants from the West Coast to the incarceration camps to eventual resettlement in Chicago. Compiled from interviews with eleven different people, it contains rare footage of Issei speaking about their life experiences. Topics include arrival in the United States, work and marriage, experiences after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, experiences of incarceration, the impact of military service, arrival in Chicago, and the challenges of growing old. Speaker 1: I made up my mind to come to America. And this, as a child, I boasted to my playmates that I was going to America. All my preparations done, I made ready to leave. Speaker 2: Right after the Russo-Japan war, prices in Japan were so high I could hardly make a living. It was then I thought about coming to America. Speaker 3: I was a picture bride. I came alone to America. Those who were picture brides were a hardier lot, because we had to come on our own. Speaker 4: It was not person to person, it was an arranged marriage, but I thought that somehow, it would come out all right. Richard Okabe: The Issei, the first generation of Japanese to come to America, came by many routes. Some came directly to the mainland. Others came by way of Hawaii, Mexico, and Canada. Most came in legally. Others were stowaways or had jumped ship. However they entered, all, once here, endured many hardships. Some they expected ; some they could not have imagined. Who were these Issei? How did they live? What helped them to survive? Speaker 6: 私がシアトルにまいりまして日本から来たもんですから白人のレイディが私をデパートメントストアへ連れていってくださいました。そして色んな物を買いまして... I arrived in Seattle with my Japanese clothes on, so an American lady took me to a department store and bought me some American clothes. She showed me hats which were in a showcase, the most expensive in the store. We bought some things like a corset. Then the lady left me, and I had no idea how to put it on. I finally came to the conclusion that this should be put on as undergarments, so I did this. まあ、そういう風にして用意致しました。 そしてずっと、あのー、ロスアンゼルスに着きまして, まあ、マイハズバンドは、あのー、日本人のアソシエーションで働いておりましたから... We arrived in Los Angeles, and since my husband was working for the Japanese Association, I stayed home most of the time. When any white people came to my house, I was scared, so I hid in the bedroom, because I didn' ; t understand. Speaker 7: 私がアメリカに来た時は最初に来た時は、１５の時だったんですよ。「inaudible」百姓しておったので..... I came to the United States when I was 15 years old. My father was a farmer. I helped my father. I hoed, weeded, and hitched the horses. それからカラメを出したり, 馬のけつをたたいて、それからプラウする。色々なことをオールデイして... We didn' ; t have any enjoyment. There was no time to go to town. I worked all the weekdays, and on Saturday I washed clothes. そういう具合で、別に何という楽しみもう nothing。毎日毎日を暮らしました。 Speaker 8: When I went to Wyoming, where my father worked in the mining, and people in the camp advised me to go to school boy, if I want to improve my English. So I find a place where I can work as school boy. There, the lady of the house brought me a broom. Say, " ; This is broom." ; And I said, " ; Broom." ; And another time, she brought me a dish. She said, " ; This is dish." ; And I said, " ; Dish." ; That' ; s how it, I start learning English. Richard Okabe: Much of the Issei' ; s early life in America was transient. In their effort to stay alive and plant solid roots, they struggled daily with a new language, new ways, places, and work. Speaker 9: ギャングでね。ウッドギャングｄです--オレゴンで。自分にはコールもなしオイルもないでしょう。[inaudible] その仕事は私は二年やりました。それはおもしろいです。 In Oregon, there was neither coal nor oil. The trains were wood burning, and we worked in wood gangs. I did this work for two years. It was kind of fun. We would load and unload the wood from cars to clear waterways. --きれいな水を--きれいな水をそこにおろしたり積んだりする仕事。 Speaker 4: We lived in a lumber camp. We had a group life. It was 52 years ago. There were 60 to 100 people in the group. My husband worked day and night as foreman and manager of the camp. Speaker 2: The reason many Japanese became farmers was that they did not need to speak English. The produce is the only thing you can sell without going into a lot of talk. Speaker 10: The company shipped lettuce. They had a packing house and they put me in there. There were about 30 young whites. One of them called me Jap, so I knocked the hell out of him. I almost killed him. I went to the office, got money, and took off for California. Speaker 11: I did domestic live-in work, and sent money to Japan for my children' ; s living and education. I could not take care of children and go to work, see, so my mother said that she would take care of my children. They pay only 25 cents an hour that time. I don' ; t mind working hard, because I get used to it. Speaker 3: I didn' ; t understand this country. Nobody helped me. My husband is an honest, nice man, but he got a drinking problem, and got to play games. Also, we had hard times, because my husband is 25 years older than I am. Speaker 11: My impression of America was that it was really lonely here. If I were blessed materially, I wouldn' ; t have felt so much loneliness. Some came here as picture brides. Husbands didn' ; t always reveal their true economic situation in the United States. When a bride came here, she was really disappointed about her marriage. There were many people who were like that. Speaker 3: Yes, when we first came to America, we were going back to Japan. Most Issei thought like that, but we eventually all stayed here. Speaker 12: ３時の朝？ラジオをかけたところがパールハーバーのアタックを聞いたので... It was on Sunday December 7th. My children were at home. We heard over the radio that Pearl Harbor was attacked. That was on Sunday, so that I had to go to the temple. It was around noon. I had to use transfer to get there. As soon as I got on the streetcar, people said, " ; Jap, Jap." ; I transferred to another streetcar. People looked at me and said, " ; Jap, Jap." ; I was scared. People at the temple were all so frightened, and finished the service quickly, and everybody went home. On the way home, people called us, " ; Jap, Jap." ; That night, the priest of the temple was arrested. ...そしてあの帰ってきました．その後でまあ町会長さんが連れられて行ったって聞きました。 Speaker 3: 私のところでクリーニング屋をやっていましたので... We had a cleaning store on the West Side, and we had to take a streetcar to get there. It was a good location, and we had many good customers. They were Germans and Italians. But after the war started, they came only once or twice. They said, " ; You are good people, but we cannot continue to bring in our business anymore, so don' ; t feel badly towards us." ; Then the evacuation became definite, and we had to close up our business, so we decided to sell. So we put up a sign giving our business away for $100 or $200. So I can' ; t remember the exact amount, but we practically gave it away for $100 or $150. どうしても売れません。それだから、まあ、いっその事, 捨ててもあれだから、幾円でも買ってもらうように、１００円か２００円書いてショーウィンドウに貼っておきました。そしたら１００円だったか１５０円だったか本当に捨てるくらいなプライスで 買ってもらいまして、それで片づけました。 Speaker 13: アーミーのオフィサーが二人きまして、私どもの家族を... Two Army officers came, took us to the city jail. My wife was taken upstairs, and my two children and I were taken and put into a small cell in the basement. My children, the oldest was nine, and the younger was five, and they have always believed that jail was for those who committed a crime. They kept asking me why we were being put into jail. It was very difficult to try to make them understand. ...はいる所だと言うことを思っておるもんですから。自分たちはそのー何にも悪いから悪いこともしないし、又、罪もないのにどうしてこんなジェールにその入れられたのかということを私は聞きまして、自分でその子供に対して弁解するのに非常に当惑し苦しんだわけなんだ。 Speaker 2: In early May, we were gathered and let in trains. We didn' ; t know where we go. We had only baggage. The train' ; s curtains were down. We stopped at Los Angeles Station, but the curtains were still closed. We were worried that we might be killed. Speaker 4: We took only what we could carry. Most of our things were discarded, and we carried one duffel bag, but that wasn' ; t enough, so we took a suitcase too. I thought we are being taken somewhere to be shot. When we arrived at our destination, there was nothing but sagebrush with no houses. Richard Okabe: The Issei and their children, some 110,000 West Coast Japanese, of which 70,000 were natural-born citizens and 40,000 were aliens, were put into 10 concentration camps scattered throughout the United States as far east as Arkansas. Speaker 13: 私がキャンプにおります時、他のキャンプから... When we were in camp, I heard the next day that there were 200 people being brought in from another camp. When this group came in, there were two sick, elderly people. The group had already passed through the gate, and the two sick ones were wandering around outside the gate. They were shot by the guards, who claimed they were trying to escape. I heard this story the next day, after it happened. その二人は入れないもんだから、ゲートのところでうろうろしているのをガードがそのゲートを越して、逃げたから撃ったという話をあくる日聞いたんであります。 Speaker 14: キャンプに入りましてから私は本当にあの安心して... Since we' ; d been in camp, I had felt at ease. Bringing up four children was a terrible strain on me, clothing them and feeding them, and I worked Saturdays and Sundays to do this. In camp, those who were used to do a more extravagant way of life, complained bitterly about the shortage of milk and the poor food, but I was thankful for being in camp. It was a good place for me to be in. ...足りないと言ってね。。もう文句をいうけれども、私はもう貧乏していましたからもうとても感謝でした。それから、うちの主人があのこの戦争... Also, I' ; m thankful that my husband, who died before the war, did not have to live to see this kind of existence. Speaker 4: Camp was not good for the children' ; s education. Family life is gone, just buildings, and children go to mess hall and eat and go out with friends, not come home. Richard Okabe: Three years of camp life took its toll on the age-old Japanese family structure. Issei men' ; s authority as breadwinners and central decision-makers were taken over by the administration. The Issei had no voice in governing camp life, since they were not citizens. By administrative directive, community leadership passed from the Issei to their sons. With the yes/no issue of national allegiance, family unity was further destroyed. Speaker 15: このイエス、ノーを決めるようになってあの... When the yes/no controversy came up, there were many headaches over this decision. Shall we stay in America, or go back to Japan? My husband would hear rumors about Japan losing or winning the war. I had already decided to stay here, regardless of who won the war, since my children were here. I asked the children what their decision was. They said they would remain here. My husband couldn' ; t go back to Japan by himself, so he stayed here, and so he conceded to us. Richard Okabe: All those citizens and non-citizens who said " ; no" ; to service in the United States Army, and " ; no" ; to unqualified allegiance to the United States, were sent to a maximum security camp at Tule Lake to await expatriation to Japan. Then, what must have been one of the more ironic events of that wartime experience took place. At the same time that their families could not be trusted outside barbed wire, young Japanese American men were being inducted and trusted to fight in the United States Army. Speaker 16: I had to leave the children and my wife. My wife was still young at the time. I didn' ; t want to go. I really didn' ; t want to. Even after I was drafted, I tried not to go overseas. When I had the interview, I... It was about 30 years ago, but I still remember clearly the question. " ; Do you want to go to Japan?" ; I said, clearly, " ; No, I don' ; t want to go there, where my parents is living. I will go any other place." ; Speaker 17: My son, Perry, said that, " ; I' ; m going to be 21 next month, but I' ; m not going to war, because my father and mother' ; s country and my country fight. I don' ; t want to kill any, both, either one nation, so I may have to go to jail, Mother. Is that be all right?" ; When I went back to my room, I cried loud. I' ; m so sorry, but couldn' ; t help it. Speaker 18: キャンプにフォーフォーセコンドが組織されました時に親たちは大変に心配しました... When the 442nd was organized in camp, the parents were worried and saddened by it all. The reason was that an all-Japanese unit would probably be sent to the front line. The reasoning was that in World War I, an all-Negro outfit was sent as front cover, and they were all killed. This is what we had been told. So my boy was drafted into the army. ...全部戦死したという噂を聞いおるからでありました。それからうちの息子も出征することになりまして、あの寒い雪の中にわたくしもミニドカのゲートの外まで送って参りました。。その時には... In heavy snow in Minidoka, I went with him to the outskirts of the camp to say goodbye. When I thought that perhaps I may never see his face again, my eyes would fill with tears. When I would go to the mess hall and people would inquire about him, my tears would start all over again. I would take my plate to the garbage can and throw all the food away, and I went home. Richard Okabe: From mid-1944 until March of 1946, one by one, the camps began to close, and the Japanese began to relocate. Speaker 7: 私はキャンプにいましてそれから... I came to Chicago in 1943. We couldn' ; t go back to West Coast eight states, but if we got jobs outside of military zone, we could get out of camp. I was in Manzanar, and the government sent us to Reno by bus. There was restroom in a pool hall. When I went to the restroom, I saw a sign, " ; Jap hunting around here." ; I felt badly. Nothing happened there. それからバスに乗って、こっち...もう普通の人で、アウトサイドと同じように、こっちに来たわけですよ。それでところどころでご飯食べたり、それからバスの止まるところでね止まるんですよ。あの便所するに止まって、便所にいったら、それはなんかプールホールだった。それからこう見たら、あんた" ; Jap Hunting around Here." ; とゆうて書いてある。気持ち悪いこと書いてある。それで便所してきて、何もことはなかったですよ。それから又バスであの何、えー、シカゴの方へ来る途中にもう一所止まって、又便所に行きましたら今度若いボーイがねえ... Then we stopped another restroom. When I was urinating in the restroom, there was a young boy who had a knife. He hold the knife as though he was going to attack me. When I was young, I did judo, and I was 41-year-old at that time, so it didn' ; t scare me. 私は若い時に柔道をやって、まだその自分にも来た時は四十--四十一だった。四十一だっ--四十になったんです。それで、その子供はなんでナイフで来てもそんなに怖いことはなかったから便所すましたんですよ。 Rev. Gyodo Kono: ちょっと今から考えてみると大変、うーん、面白いことなんですけど1944-- It was a really strange thing, when I look back at that time in August 1944. We held the first Obon service in the South Side in Chicago. That was a special service, so that about 350 young Buddhists attended the service. In the middle of the service, FBI and policemen came up and asked me what was happening here. I explained that this was a religious service, so they went out with relief, but they said that the neighbors might be wondering what was happening, so when you go out from the building, don' ; t go out at one time, just five or six at one time. We used the 55th L station, but it took a long time for all 350 people to leave the station and go home. I still remember that. ...利用しておったのですけれどもが皆の人たちが礼拝場からかえってしまうまでには大変長い時間がかかった事を今でも覚えています。 Richard Okabe: Little by little, the Issei began to rebuild their lives. Still, they never quite recovered their pre-war authority. The camps had changed Japanese life. During the ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s, the Issei moved to the sidelines as their children established families, homes, and careers, pursuing dreams that took them further away from parent and past values. The Issei now mark their years by the growth of their grandchildren, and the passing of other Issei friends. In their final years, they continue with dignity and self-respect, doing for themselves and others the best they can. Speaker 7: Every one of my friends, one by one, is dying off, and I' ; m grateful for my day-to-day life, and happy for my time is limited. Happiness is a daily thing. You can' ; t think in terms of later, later. It is here and now. Speaker 20: I tried my best. Come out not so good, but I tried my best, and that' ; s all I can do. That' ; s true, so I don' ; t worry about anything. Have a good lunch at a restaurant, have a good meal, so enjoy life now. Speaker 4: I' ; m so happy that I can work and support myself. I feel free. The kids are happy and I' ; m happy. Speaker 2: The hard times of dango jiru are over. Since I came to Chicago, there is no one who has had a happier life than I had. Having a long life can be very fortunate experience, but I am praying to God to open up the gate of death for me. It isn' ; t good to outlive your usefulness. Speaker 21: My daughter said, " ; Mother, if you feel lonesome, and you want with us, come over anytime. We can take care of you." ; But my idea is, as long as my two feet and hand are all right, I like to be independent. Somehow, I made it, you know, to the end. Speaker 22: I have a grandson, and I have enjoyed watching him grow up. My mother always told me, " ; You have to suffer to learn to appreciate the good things in life." ; I find this to be very true. There' ; s a song which goes like this, " ; You cook rice three times a day. Sometimes it' ; s too soft. Some days it' ; s hard. Other times, it' ; s just right." ; That' ; s the way life is, just like the song. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPIsseiAQualityForSurvival.xml IGPIsseiAQualityForSurvival.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/10
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Katsuno, Chie
Maeda, Shitsuke
Hayano, Mieki
Sakamoto, Sanjiro
Shimizu, Tase
Hama, Hideo
Monma, Fumiyo
Mukai, Chiyoko
Orita, Natsu
Sato, Kiku
Kono, Rev. Gyodo
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Issei: A Quality for Survival
Description
An account of the resource
Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film traces the journey of first generation Japanese immigrants from the West Coast to the incarceration camps to eventual resettlement in Chicago. Compiled from interviews with eleven different people, it contains rare footage of Issei speaking about their life experiences. Topics include arrival in the United States, work and marriage, experiences after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, experiences of incarceration, the impact of military service, arrival in Chicago, and the challenges of growing old.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Issei Geronotology Project
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/4df1cc8fa39d56a211e9ff67810b7e3a.png
162be61351af215a208ecf0ace24f29f
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPSeekingAHumanDimension.xml
Interview Keyword
Issei
Social Services
Home Support Service
Counseling
Sheltered Workshop
OHMS Object Text
5.4 1975 Social Service: Seeking a Human Dimension 0:20:59 JASC_IGP Issei Gerontology Project Films Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Digitized with support from the Gaylord and Dorothy Donnelley Foundation. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Issei Social Services Home Support Service Counseling Sheltered Workshop video 1:|15(5)|42(5)|96(10)|136(2)|181(2)|235(10)|303(2)|344(1)|350(2)|381(2)|417(1)|451(2)|495(2)|508(12)|521(4)|601(3)|650(14)|713(5)|763(1) 0 https://vimeo.com/387492632/53a0529d6b Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/387492632?h=53a0529d6b" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film showcases the social support services provided by the Japanese American Service Committee to the aging Issei population in Chicago. It features scenes of clients receiving home support services and counseling services and participating in the Sheltered Workshop program and recreational programming. JASC staff members Eiko Fricke, Tomoko Satoh, Dorothy Kaneko, Fred Odanaka, and Ichiro Kagei appear in the film. The closing credits include footage of Issei participating in a community garden project and going on an outing for ice cream. Narrator - Eiko Fricke: [Office murmers] Yeah. Yeah, that' ; s all right. At the Teijyū Shakai, Japanese American Service Committee, the social service workers generally start the day by making contact with clients. Eiko Fricke: もしもし、野尻さんですか。私定住者会のフリッキーです。いかがですか？ Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Taking the time to be pleasant, to ask about their health, talking about the weather or about the family is important, even in these short contacts, Issei appreciate people who know and observe Japanese customs. Some clients are hard of hearing, others don' ; t have telephone, or are afraid to pick up phone because they can' ; t understand English. Clients like these need a letter so that they don' ; t forget we are coming. Dorothy Kaneko: [inaudible] 楽しかったね。 Narrator - Eiko Fricke: On the job, we don' ; t think it' ; s a waste of time to chit-chat. We feel the human touch is important, especially with old people, we have to work with them for long period of time. So keeping relationships warm and pleasant helps. Dorothy Kaneko: Yeah. Before I forget, I wanted to discuss with you about our social program. Tomoko Satoh: Okay. Dorothy Kaneko: I' ; m really in a quandary about July' ; s social program, where to go and what to do. In our planning committee, we had planetarium down, but we' ; ve been there recently. Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Before we start our individual rounds-- Dorothy Kaneko: --college, and I think that would be an all day affair, and we can' ; t have any more all day affairs. -- Narrator - Eiko Fricke: ...we generally meet to talk about our clients and the programs. We talk about how we can help this client, what is the best way to handle the situation. Dorothy Kaneko: -- So, I' ; ll need help deciding what to do.-- Narrator - Eiko Fricke: What is the plan for this program, and so on. Dorothy Kaneko: -- But for August we got it printed for a picnic, so that' ; s all set, now. One of the clients brought this in. Unidentified Speaker: Oh, that' ; s pretty. Dorothy Kaneko: Yeah, a toilet paper cover. Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Each client we serve has different needs, and we try to tailor our program to them. Dorothy Kaneko: Our latest client, I was kind of surprised to see how well she looked, considering she was a stroke patient. Eiko Fricke: Maybe like a home work person. Dorothy Kaneko: Maybe she' ; d like to do a little home work. I' ; d be willing to bring it for her. Eiko Fricke: That' ; s good. Dorothy Kaneko: And she said she' ; ll think about it, and let me know. Eiko Fricke: Let her do whatever she can do. Not do everything for her. You know, let her do, yeah uh-huh. Narrator - Eiko Fricke: The lady I' ; m going to see now is a shut in, and needs things she can do that she will enjoy and make her feel useful. Eiko Fricke: こうして、こういう風にして掛けるようにしたらどうでしょう。ステキですよ、きっと。これは、これに合いますよ。この洋服に、こうして合いますよ。ほらね。ステキですよこの色だったら、とてもあなたの洋服に合いますよ。 Unidentified Client 1: これでなくて、他のでも着れますでしょう。 Eiko Fricke: 着れますよ。やあ。 Unidentified Client 1: これは、習おておいたら良かったですね。 Eiko Fricke: そんなことないですよ。 今習うところが丁度いいの。 Unidentified Client 1: こう？ Eiko Fricke: はい？ちょっと待って、やあ、 ここですよ。 Tomoko Satoh: ハロー、藤沢さん、いらっしゃいます？佐藤です。 Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Others need the services of a homemaker. Mrs. Fujisawa is hard of hearing, so she leaves the door open for our worker. Tomoko Satoh: ハーイ。 Mrs. Fujisawa: ああ Tomoko Satoh: いかがですか？ Mrs. Fujisawa: ありがとう。 Tomoko Satoh: どうですか、お元気？ Mrs. Fujisawa: ありがとう。 Tomoko Satoh: これね、頼まれた本。これね、買い物してきましたよ。これが本で。 Mrs. Fujisawa: はい、じゃあ、お金払わないと-- Tomoko Satoh: いいですね、有難うございました。お金確かに頂きましたね。これね、袋を頼まれたでしょう？ Mrs. Fujisawa: はいはい。 Tomoko Satoh: これくらい大きいのができましたよ。ほら、このぐらい。 Mrs. Fujisawa: Oh、thank you Tomoko Satoh: いいですか？ Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Mrs. Fujisawa is moving and she wanted a big laundry bag to put her clothes in. Tomoko Satoh: ...そしてここのところしっかり縫っておいたから、あの、何入れても大丈夫よ。いいですか？ Mrs. Fujisawa: Thank you. Thank you. Tomoko Satoh: そしたらショッピングはこれね。 今日は何しましょうか？ Mrs. Fujisawa: モップしてもらおう。 Tomoko Satoh: モップ？ Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Also, the homemaker cleans or cooks whatever chores need doing. Tomoko Satoh: さあ、終わりましたよ。モップが終わりましたよ。 Mrs. Fujisawa: はいはい、次はいつ来てくれます？ Tomoko Satoh: そうですね、あの--、来週の火曜日。 Mrs. Fujisawa: 火曜日？ Tomoko Satoh: いいですか、来週の火曜日でいいですね。何か買ってくる物ありますか？ Mrs. Fujisawa: 本とか--本とかね。 Tomoko Satoh: 本と、何がいいです？フルーツか何か買ってきましょうか？ Mrs. Fujisawa: フルーツでもね。 Tomoko Satoh: 本と、フルーツと。 Dorothy Kaneko: 時々変わるといいね。コックなさるの？お一人で、 Unidentified Client 2: 今しません。 Dorothy Kaneko: しないの？ Unidentified Client 2: 今あまりできません。 Dorothy Kaneko: ほかの日はどうします？ Unidentified Client 2: ほかの日は自分でコック--自分で買ってくる。 Dorothy Kaneko: おお、買ってくるの？どこから？ Unidentified Client 2: あの、ジュエルとかそんなところ。 Dorothy Kaneko: おお Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Our clients are old age Japanese, so they sometimes like to eat Japanese food. We provide Japanese meals on wheels three times a week. Dorothy Kaneko: それで洋食お好きですか？ Unidentified Client 2: ええ、好きですよ。もともと何でも好き。 Dorothy Kaneko: ああ、でも時々日本食があるといいでしょう。 Unidentified Client 2: こんなもの入りますとね、時々はいいの。 あまり続くと嫌になっちゃうね。 Dorothy Kaneko: ああそうですか。 Narrator - Eiko Fricke: In all our contacts, companionship is important. Some clients have definite problems and need individual attention, but for many Isseis, just coming to the work center and working and feeling needed is a great help. Eiko Fricke: [inaudible] それでは皆さんハッピーバースデーを歌いましょう。[group singing Happy Birthday song] Fred Odanaka: もう日本では、61になったら年取りでしょう、年寄り。 Unidentified Workshop Client 1: はァ？ Unidentified Workshop Client 2: 嘘ばっかりいって、 Fred Odanaka: ああ、61 Narrator - Fred Odanaka: In the work center, we try to create the sense of a large family so that even though the supervisors control the workflow, they interact with the Issei. Fred Odanaka: This is one of our supervisors here who is bilingual, and she helps coordinate the work activity on this table and also on occasion, help in the counseling of some of the senior citizens. Unidentified Workshop Supervisor 1: あんた、向う見なさい。ちょっと、 Unidentified Workshop Client 2: [inaudible] Unidentified Workshop Supervisor 2: What happened? No good? What? Down here? No. That way? No, this way. Unidentified Workshop Client 3: No. Unidentified Workshop Supervisor 2: Yeah. Unidentified Workshop Client 3: Right. Unidentified Workshop Supervisor 2: Okay. Okay? Now wrong one, now try. Fred Odanaka: These are dental and first aid room or examination room. Narrator - Fred Odanaka: Monthly, a volunteer registered nurse takes a blood pressure of Isseis and maintains a record on them. A volunteer dentist makes biweekly visits and checks teeth, usually dentures. The charge is only for materials. The medical facility is not used enough due to the lack of volunteer doctors. Fred Odanaka: Some of our senior citizens, our Isseis, help instruct in other classes, such as Mr. Higashigawa here, who is a instructor in cooking for our Issei students here, and he is one of the well-known chefs here. Narrator - Fred Odanaka: When there is a large participation of Issei in an outside activity, we often close our workshop for the day. That' ; s because we stress coming to the center to enjoy life by working and sharing, going to classes in ceramics, sewing, macrame, weaving, brush painting, singing and body dynamics. Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Classes and social hours help relieve the isolation and provide human interaction that Issei need. However, some clients need and respond to very personal attention. Ichiro Kagei: もりやまさん、大変ですね。夜寝られますか？うるさいでしょう。 Mr. Moriyama: うるさくてかなわんよ。 Ichiro Kagei: どっか、アパート、ムーブしますか？ Mr. Moriyama: Yeah. Ichiro Kagei: しますか？貯金は大丈夫ですね? Mr. Moriyama: Maybe tonight it will comeから... Ichiro Kagei: 誰が？ Mr. Moriyama: FBIが。 Ichiro Kagei: FBIが？二人ですか？ Mr. Moriyama: みんなチェックしてあるよ。 Ichiro Kagei: 何しますか？ Mr. Moriyama: 何でもないよ。 Ichiro Kagei: FBIが来たらどうしますか？ I inherited Mr. Moriyama from my predecessor. At first, I found his speech quite incoherent and his ideas unclear. He often mentions the FBI. I discovered that the whole thing with the FBI had to do with an encounter he had with them during wartime. This led to his now imagining things. That' ; s why I decided that I must listen to him seriously, but at the same time, not take the stories too seriously. So, I began by making up incredible stories about the FBI. They were so ridiculous that he would laugh at them and say that I was crazy. Mr. Moriyama: [inaudible] Ichiro Kagei: It is hard for me sometimes to tell what is real and what is not. I kid around with him because I think it kind of jolts him back to reality. I wave my hands in front of him, poke him, and often startle him. I realize that this method will not work with just anybody, but it works with Mr. Moriyama. When we kid each other, we' ; re just like buddies. I guess we understand each other. He never married. He has no relatives or friends. He lives alone and the voices that he hears are his only companions. I think he would really go insane if these voices stopped completely. Communication is not limited to kidding around and talking. Sometimes silence is just as important. Just being with another human being is what is needed. You know, it' ; s like saying you' ; re not alone. Eiko Fricke: And we are having lot of other activities. You know we increased more activities at our center. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh is that so? Eiko Fricke: Yeah Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Mrs. Ijichi was once very withdrawn. And a problem that a helper will have to face is how to pull people out of this withdrawal and still be honest about their situation. Eiko Fricke: They' ; re really enjoying those programs. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh, that' ; s nice. Eiko Fricke: Yeah, I hope you can come though. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh yes. Eiko Fricke: For our program. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh, well, thank you. I would like to join. Eiko Fricke: Yeah, if you like to come, you know, we can pick you up and come, you know let you come someday to see. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh, uh-huh. Eiko Fricke: That must be nice, isn' ; t it? Mrs. Ijichi: Uh-huh. Eiko Fricke: Yeah. Do you think you can come sometime? If I can come and pick you up? Mrs. Ijichi: Oh, well we have that here too, you know? Eiko Fricke: Oh, that' ; s right too. But I think everybody you know, your friends are waiting to see you too. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh, well. Is Mrs. Lewis still working? Eiko Fricke: Mrs. Lewis is not too well, so she' ; s staying home. Mrs. Ijichi: Oh, she' ; s not working now. Eiko Fricke: Not working now. Mrs. [inaudible] is 90 years old. She' ; s working every day. Mrs. Ijichi: oh, for goodness...It' ; s amazing, isn' ; t it? A woman of her age? Eiko Fricke: Yeah. We had a special birthday for her because that was a... Mrs. Ijichi: Oh yes, that' ; s quite an age to live up to. Eiko Fricke: Yes. Mrs. Ijichi: Uh-huh. Eiko Fricke: So, maybe you like to come and see them too. Mrs. Ijichi: Uh-huh. Eiko Fricke: Do you think that if we come and pick you up you can come? Mrs. Iwanaga: The doctors are killing me, you know? They don' ; t know how to fix me. So, I' ; m not going to any more doctors. Eiko Fricke: Not helping? Mrs. Iwanaga: Nah, they don' ; t know what to do. Eiko Fricke: Well, I don' ; t want you to getting so tired, so I' ; ll let you rest. Okay? Mrs. Iwanaga: Okay. Eiko Fricke: And I' ; ll come again and I' ; ll talk to you, okay? Mrs. Iwanaga: Okay. Eiko Fricke: And you can call me. Mrs. Iwanaga: I' ; ll want that. So, if I have somebody with me, it' ; d be nice. Eiko Fricke: Well, it' ; s kind of hard, but I' ; ll try. But I can' ; t promise right now. Okay? Yeah. Probably think about it later. Okay. Mrs. Iwanaga: I tell, my sister-in-law was saying that there was a place where they, where you have sent Japanese Americans... Eiko Fricke: Yes, yes. Mrs. Iwanaga: Where is that? Eiko Fricke: That is the place that like a nurses and doctors, 24 hour duty... Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Other clients who are very sick, will withdraw. Most of them know their real condition, so we try to help them to accept the situation without giving up. Eiko Fricke: Your sister was asking about that. Mrs. Iwanaga: Yeah. Eiko Fricke: If you like to go there for a while-- Mrs. Iwanaga: I think that sounded good. Eiko Fricke: Yeah. For a short time. Not, not permanent, but short time until you get very well. Mrs. Iwanaga: What if I die in a very short time? Eiko Fricke: No. Are you going to? Mrs. Iwanaga: I hope so. Giving myself mercy killing. What' ; s the use of living? I' ; m just a vegetable? Eiko Fricke: You' ; re not vegetable. You' ; re talking? Mrs. Iwanaga: That' ; s all. I can' ; t do anything else. Eiko Fricke: You can think about it. You can make planning. Mrs. Iwanaga: I have to think about being a vegetable. Yeah. Eiko Fricke: Yeah. Mrs. Iwanaga: That' ; s nice. Eiko Fricke: Yeah. Well, vegetable won' ; t smile like you. Beautiful smile. Narrator - Eiko Fricke: Mrs. Iwanaga died one week after this filming. There are sad parts to the job. Withdrawal and death are some of these, but the main job of the social service worker is to help create an atmosphere in which the Issei can still feel useful, helping things to grow, sharing work and pleasure, continuing to do the everyday things that bring fun and meaning into their lives. Unidentified Speaker in Garden: これ持って帰って. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPSeekingAHumanDimension.xml IGPSeekingAHumanDimension.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Social Service: Seeking a Human Dimension
Description
An account of the resource
Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film showcases the social support services provided by the Japanese American Service Committee to the aging Issei population in Chicago. It features scenes of clients receiving home support services and counseling services and participating in the Sheltered Workshop program and recreational programming. JASC staff members Eiko Fricke, Tomoko Satoh, Dorothy Kaneko, Fred Odanaka, and Ichiro Kagei appear in the film. The closing credits include footage of Issei participating in a community garden project and going on an outing for ice cream.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
ISHRAB
Issei Geronotology Project
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/2ec6ce8b00a3b8205b68938eb1e912c8.png
2b535c533274ff2361bc17f1ce0f7392
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPValuesAndAttitudesII.xml
Interview Keyword
Aging
Intergenerational communication
Language barrier
Respect for elders
OHMS Object Text
5.4 1975 Values and Attitudes II 0:07:17 JASC_IGP Issei Gerontology Project Films Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Digitized with support from the Gaylord and Dorothy Donnelley Foundation. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Aging Intergenerational communication Language barrier Respect for elders video 1:|17(10)|34(6)|61(10)|81(10)|106(2)|126(15)|144(14) 0 https://vimeo.com/367582744/bd6daf3fe4 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/367582744?h=bd6daf3fe4" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 427" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film captures the attitudes of Nisei (second generation) and Sansei (third generation) Japanese Americans toward the aging Issei (first generation) population. Speaker 1: When you think of Issei. What do you think? Speaker 2: Well, I think of the first generation Japanese that immigrated here to this country. Including people like my parents. Speaker 3: Pioneers. Speaker 4: I think about my parents and my in-laws, I guess. And that their life is coming to an end. Speaker 5: Mostly, you know they' ; re just, you just think of them as old Japanese and... Like mostly, I just think of my grandmother when you know, you talk about Isseis because she' ; s the only Issei I really come in contact with. Speaker 6: Good to, good to kids people. Hardworking people. Speaker 7: In my younger days, tended to think that, were a lot different from us. Therefore, you know, there was quite a lack of communication between Issei and myself. But lately I' ; ve began to appreciate them more. And I' ; m sorry that I didn' ; t get a chance to communicate with them more deeply. Speaker 8: People who have gone through so much that I want to care for them. I see an Issei on the street and I feel like embracing them, and I feel like... I say, I always say hello, and I feel very close to them. Speaker 9: I see that they' ; re really humble and reserved, and that they really kind of get pushed around, and now but like my generation we' ; re starting to come out of it. But I see a great bunch of people. Speaker 8: I don' ; t want them to be in homes. I wanted to care for them at home. Speaker 10: They were put in the relocation camps during the war. And somehow they came out of that with no bitter feelings. And I feel no matter what old Japanese person I see, I can go up to them and talk with them. And they' ; ll appreciate it. Or if they need a ride, I, you' ; d do anything for them when I see them. I feel some kind of connection with them. Speaker 11: I sort of feel like... I' ; m like toward my grandmother. Compassion or love, you know? Speaker 6: Oh, these are people who care about me. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 6: Who work hard for me. Who will do everything in their power to give me a better life. Speaker 12: Well, I don' ; t feel too sorry about them because they already served, served their life and they did, and they did a good job. I think for being unable to speak English. Speaker 13: It' ; s hard to communicate with them. Speaker 1: How about you? Speaker 14: Well, I guess you know, Isseis are, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t really understand their culture as much. Speaker 4: Not to ignore them because that' ; s a trend with older people. You know you feel that you don' ; t have anything to say or a lot of times you feel that they really don' ; t understand. But they do understand, they do have feelings and I want to make them, you know, feel as comfortable as possible and happy, I guess. Speaker 5: Well, I just think the main thing is you know like if, if they want to help you know you just, you know respond in a receptive manner. You know, and if they say, are you hungry? You know I always say, " ; Okay, I' ; m hungry." ; So then they' ; ll cook for you or something and you know, it makes them feel good. And you know, even though you' ; re not hungry, you' ; re making ' ; em feel good. And you just do what... If they want to help you, just let them help you. That' ; s the thing. I, I think that' ; s the main thing ' ; cause they' ; re, they' ; re not going to be around that much longer. So just make it easier for ' ; em. Speaker 6: All right. Take the pressure of, of finances off of their backs. Speaker 14: I try to speak Japanese more. Speaker 13: I try to learn Japanese. Speaker 2: Well, I would think now in terms here. Especially in Chicago and in other centers where there' ; s large, fairly large groups of Japanese. I think we have to think in terms of housing for them. This is a big problem. And that they have no place to go after they-- Say that they' ; re alone for example. There are many Issei that are alone. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: Well, they have no place to go. And language is a problem for them too. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: And I think housing particularly is one of the thing. Also, these people are used to working all the time. They have to have some way to find something to fulfill this work that they' ; ve been so long doing. And if they can find recreation. Fine. But I think this has to be organized for them. Speaker 12: Maybe open a, a social spot so, so they could hang around, hang out and play Japanese games or Go. Speaker 8: I think, now we' ; re living in a very modern, fast world. Now I think we should have Japanese TV. Speaker 9: Kind of just help them out around the garden because that' ; s what I think they like a lot. You know, planting things and watching things grow. Speaker 4: Well. I really think that the Isseis have a little different attitudes than the Niseis. I think they really know how to enjoy themselves you know, and, and not worry too much about society. I noticed like, when they have parties and things they really let themselves go and they sing even if they' ; re out of tune. And, and you know I really envy them for being able to do this. Speaker 1: What do you feel when you think about dying? Speaker 12: You mean for the Isseis or for me? Speaker 1: Either. Speaker 12: Oh, I don' ; t feel nothing. Dying is the things that come natural and it does not hurt. Unless you is dying of sickness then you might have pain. But if you' ; re going to die natural. Your spirit just goes out and you don' ; t feel... There' ; s no pain. It' ; s nothing, nothing to worry about. Speaker 15: I don' ; t really know. Speaker 13: I don' ; t know, it' ; s sort of like a scary feeling. Speaker 16: But I think it' ; s just a natural part of life. And I think, I think that there' ; s nothing to fear about it. I think the Isseis feel that way also. Speaker 8: I don' ; t know if that' ; s an attitude of the Isseis. I think they accept life as it is. When you become old and then your time is here and I think they accept it graciously. I don' ; t know if I can, maybe as I get old, maybe I can, I don' ; t want to. Now, I just think, I don' ; t want to think of it because I enjoy life so much. I just can' ; t think about it. Speaker 10: They, they struggled hard. Our parents struggled hard. And now we have it easy. And I think when I die, I won' ; t feel like I' ; ve missed anything. Speaker 17: Well, I don' ; t think about it really. You know, I just more or less live day to day I mean. Speaker 7: I think the worst part of dying is the situation, you leave people who, you know, your loved ones behind. I worry more about that than about dying itself. Speaker 2: Unfortunately for a lot of the Issei some of them died I' ; m afraid too young not to partake of the good things that came a little later after that struggle. But that took place in the early years of their history. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IGPValuesAndAttitudesII.xml IGPValuesAndAttitudesII.xml https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/10
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Values and Attitudes II
Description
An account of the resource
Produced in 1975 as part of the Issei Gerontology Project, this film captures the attitudes of Nisei (second generation) and Sansei (third generation) Japanese Americans toward the aging Issei (first generation) population.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975
Format
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video
ISHRAB
Issei Geronotology Project
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e6efe90d806fe3f9f6bdd1f06f8f0d25
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Nagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Biala, Kathy
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BialaKathy20221212.xml
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Model minority
Systemic racism
Ccultural appropriation
Intergenerational collaboration
Solidarity
Healing
Marina, CA
Coalition for Asian Justice
Asian Communities of Marina
Codeswitching
OHMS Object Text
5.4 12/12/2022 Biala, Kathy (12/12/2022) 1:32:45 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Model minority Systemic racism Ccultural appropriation Intergenerational collaboration Solidarity Healing Marina, CA Coalition for Asian Justice Asian Communities of Marina Codeswitching Biala, Kathy Nagasawa, Katherine video 1:|18(10)|28(15)|45(5)|63(6)|86(1)|97(9)|117(10)|142(15)|155(5)|167(3)|177(5)|196(11)|210(9)|222(13)|235(9)|248(13)|261(1)|270(9)|281(11)|296(3)|305(8)|319(6)|330(4)|340(10)|354(1)|382(1)|390(3)|417(13)|430(14)|440(4)|449(8)|471(2)|491(10)|529(10)|553(9)|570(9)|594(1)|602(3)|613(12)|624(2)|641(3)|651(11)|662(6)|672(12)|684(9)|699(7)|715(11)|734(2)|744(16)|756(3)|765(15)|777(4)|784(5)|795(9)|809(2)|822(5)|832(1)|842(10)|859(12)|869(3)|879(13)|891(1)|900(12)|911(6)|927(11)|937(3)|948(13)|959(9)|971(1)|985(9)|999(6)|1010(4)|1025(8)|1034(9)|1045(5)|1056(12)|1067(2)|1078(1)|1088(1)|1103(4)|1118(7)|1129(7)|1139(13)|1148(13)|1158(15)|1184(8)|1197(7)|1208(4)|1218(1)|1242(9)|1253(1)|1266(11) 0 https://vimeo.com/823180105/398f0cae9b Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/823180105?h=398f0cae9b" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kathy (Nakamoto) Biala, a Sansei born in Chicago, speaks about the tight-knit community of Sansei professionals who were involved in redress efforts for the Chicago JACL and describes her efforts to convince her uncle Hiro (Hiroshi) Kadokura to testify at the Chicago CWRIC hearings, where he spoke publicly about his incarceration experience for the first time. She draws connections between Japanese American incarceration and systemic racism towards other marginalized groups, and describes parallels between her experience identifying and preparing witnesses during the redress movement and her work activating low-income minority communities around Marina, CA to speak up against social and environmental injustices. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m going to just read a little bit, just to set the context. We' ; re doing this for all of them. Today is December 12th, 2022 and this oral history is being recorded at 3012 Crescent Street in Marina, California. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa and the interviewee is Kathy Biala. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American Redress Movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So I wanted to start with a question of when you first learned about incarceration in the first place because this is something that your family, or at least your parents hadn' ; t directly experienced, but extended family had. So, how old were you and what was your reaction? Kathy Biala: You know, I am sure that I must have learned something about this in my schooling in high school, but I don' ; t recall it, actually. So, I think it was because of a Nisei guy, Frank Sakamoto, in Chicago. He was in the JACL, in the Hundreds Club, and I know that he was a friend of my father' ; s. And if you know Frank, he' ; s always very bubbly and excited and very passionate about JACL. And so I bet that he introduced me into the JACL, the Chicago chapter, is how I think that must have happened. I don' ; t know specifically, but I think once I was part of JACL in Chicago, there were so many young people like myself, and so I think that it sort of fit. It was both doing a civic duty, but it was also connecting with other Japanese Americans that were younger. So it wasn' ; t a chapter filled with Issei or Nisei. It was actually like myself, maybe more Sansei driven. So I think that maybe was a unique JACL chapter. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. When I was talking to the guy from Cleveland, he said his chapter was 90% Nisei, 10% Sansei. So it seems like Chicago was a very young chapter. So do you remember, was it Frank, the person who told you about incarceration? Or did you learn about it through JACL programming? Kathy Biala: I don' ; t really recall. Now, this is terrible to say, but in grammar school I wrote a poem, actually, I was trying to find it for you, but I still have it. And it was about a carrier pigeon who apparently I had read something about it, and so my poem was about the brave carrier pigeon that communicated from the Lost Battalion back to reinforcement in the Army. And his leg was shot off and he kept going, and so he saved the Lost Battalion. It wasn' ; t until later, probably in my JACL time that, when I encountered that poem that I had written. I was ashamed to realize that it was the Japanese American, either the 442 or the 100th Battalion that actually saved the Lost Battalion in Italy. And so this is the kind of distortions that kind of happen with the history of the Japanese Americans. But so, I' ; m not sure exactly how the connections got made, but as the connections started becoming more real to me, then I realized what we haven' ; t known, what we haven' ; t been taught in schools. Katherine Nagasawa: And how did you react to that? You were probably in your twenties right, when that realization happened. Do you remember the emotions that you felt? Kathy Biala: I don' ; t remember the emotions, only that obviously I wanted to get involved enough so that, at least cerebrally, I knew that this was something that was historic and that something was wrong. But I didn' ; t feel emotions, per se, as a Sansei, I think it was seen or experienced more as a duty for me to be involved. Katherine Nagasawa: And when did you first learn about the redress movement and what JACL was doing for it? And, I guess, what roped you into that? Kathy Biala: Again, I don' ; t have the memories, but I know that if the JACL was the one sort of overseeing the whole commission hearings that you just got absorbed in it. And so I think it was just by my becoming part of JACL Chicago chapter that the commitment was there for us to do something about it. Katherine Nagasawa: And who would you say were the other sansei, who were most highly involved in the redress with you? You mentioned a couple earlier. What names do you remember? Kathy Biala: I remember Frank Sakamoto, as I said, and Ron Yoshino and Jane Kaihatsu. She and I actually became fairly good friends. We were both single women at the time, professional women, and so we had a lot of social interactions outside of JACL. And I had actually forgotten that she was at one time the president of the JACL. But so I remember Mike Ushijima. He was an attorney and was very articulate and very smart, and he was very involved. And Betty Hasegawa, I do remember her because she was a nurse and I was a nurse also. And so I think we had that special connection. There were other people, I have photographs of them in a social event, and I have all their business cards still. I don' ; t quite remember many of them, I do kind of remember John Tani, but we were all of similar ages, which is amazing to have that kind of esprit de corps of a group of about the same age young people at the time. I' ; m no longer young, but looking back, I was young. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: What was the dynamic of that group? Did you guys hang out outside of JACL? And what do you feel like bonded you guys together as Sansei professionals? Kathy Biala: I do think, I don' ; t remember it, but because I have all these photographs of us in a social setting playing different games and Mike Ushijima was a wonderful guitarist and so we would do sing alongs. I remember that. So I think there was a pretty good social connection among us. I don' ; t remember all of them, but I do have the documentation of one event anyway. And I know Jane and I had a lot of social contact. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you describe the dinners that you would have with Jane, and do you remember the bar? You said it was in Andersonville, right? Maybe? Kathy Biala: No, no, it was in Chicago. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, in Chicago. Kathy Biala: Yeah. Well, we were both single professional women, so we would meet maybe every week or at least maybe every other week, and we would go and have so much to talk about. We' ; d go to, maybe it was in Old Town, we' ; d go to a bar, but we didn' ; t drink. So it was just purely sitting at the bar and eating an early dinner. And then as time went by, this is an hour later, two hours later, we' ; d look around and now the lights were dim and all of the hip people were coming in for nightlife and we were there in our suits still. Both of us were in our suits sitting at the bar. A little out of place, but yeah, I remember that. It was very fun. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you tell me about the process of talking to your Uncle Hiro about his camp experience and then how you convinced him to testify at the hearings? Kathy Biala: Well, this is something really interesting. Because I don' ; t have the memory of actually asking him, I must have told him what we were doing in JACL and then asked him, but I don' ; t remember any resistance at all. So I think that once he heard it, I think that he pretty soon afterwards decided that was what he was going to do. And this is from an uncle who I was very close to, in the sense that our families were always together. And I would not have considered him at all a very assertive person, in fact, he has passed away for many years now, so I think I can say this, is that he would not be somebody that I would think would have such strong commitments on so many issues. So it was something that now retrospectively I see as a really important aspect of him that I did not see. And maybe it was just confined to the internment camp, because as a child I remember being with him and witnessing something happening in the apartment building next door. And rather than aiding a woman who needed help, obviously she was yelling, and he said, " ; Let' ; s not get involved." ; So that was my feeling about how he was. And this was when I was much younger, but I remember that. So when I recently interacted with Katherine and I saw the video of his testimony, I was pretty awed because I had forgotten how articulate he was and how he was willing to talk about an incident that was about a white mess officer who was stealing food from the internees and the scuffle that broke out, and apparently he was involved in part of the physical altercation, and then was very fearful of the consequences of that episode. And when I see how clear his voice was, how composed he was, and his willingness to say things that maybe had been so suppressed for so many years, I was awed by that, quite frankly, seeing this in the present. And I will say that his children, and me, because we were his wife' ; s family, his wife and my mother were sisters -- no one had ever known that he was in camp. And it was a shock to all of us. He had completely kept that silent. So when I saw what he did and what he said, I really knew that this was something that he was yearning to say. Katherine Nagasawa: It almost took somebody asking him to just light that flame, or draw it out of him. Kathy Biala: Yes, for sure. And I don' ; t know how typical that was, but again, I know it' ; s pretty typical that a lot of the Japanese American internees don' ; t communicate anything to their immediate family, their children, or anyone. And this was so incredibly the story of my Uncle Hiro (Hiroshi) Kadokura for sure. Katherine Nagasawa: I imagine, you were part of the Witness Identification Committee, that a lot of your work exposed you to Issei and Nisei telling their stories for the first time. Maybe if you don' ; t remember distinct memories, that' ; s okay, but do you remember the feeling as a Sansei of bearing witness to those stories and to that openness, the opening of something that had been so suppressed? Kathy Biala: I don' ; t. I can' ; t say that I can say anything other than for my uncle, because I knew him. I don' ; t know the other Issei and Nisei experience with this at all. I have an aunt whose father was one of the No-No Boys, and I only learned that because she passed away. Mrs. Chino passed away, and in her eulogy I learned that he was a No-No Boy and that because of that, they were moved, I think, to Poston, because if you were a No-No Boy, you went to a higher security area. But I had no knowledge of that either. I don' ; t know in what context we would' ; ve known as we grew up as children, but certainly in my uncle' ; s case, even as adults, because I knew that family as adults also, and nothing was ever said. When I read the testimonies of the people from the Chicago commission hearings, and they are really packed with some really traumatic statements and recounting their experiences, but I honestly don' ; t remember the impact on me. It' ; s only retrospectively that I look at that and say, " ; Wow." ; I don' ; t even remember anyone crying. And I don' ; t know whether you have seen that, but in the testimonies in Chicago, did any of the internees, or the Nisei, did they cry or? They did. Katherine Nagasawa: A couple. Yeah, there was one Elsa Kudo, she was a Japanese Peruvian, and she, I think they had to stop partway, and then she continued. And there were a couple where they had Kleenexes. But I was just curious from your perspective as a psychiatric nurse to witness that process of somebody unearthing trauma, how you would have perceived that, especially because you probably dealt with it professionally. Kathy Biala: Yeah, and that' ; s odd that I wouldn' ; t have remembered people crying at the time of the practice, or anything like that. I don' ; t remember that. And maybe we were so focused in on the actual delivery, that during practice maybe it didn' ; t come out. Because I don' ; t recall. I would' ; ve recalled if it had been very traumatic for people in the beginning. But I think if we were editing speeches, if we were setting up the right atmosphere so they would know what to expect next and all of that, maybe that kind of whitewashed everything. I just don' ; t know, because it would be, as you say, as a psychiatric nurse, a highly common experience for me to be involved in very dramatic or high emotion situations, and I don' ; t really recall that in terms of my participation in the preparation. Doesn' ; t mean it didn' ; t happen, but maybe it was not so shocking to me as a person who dealt with a lot of emotional situations. Not sure. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Maybe because it was so normal for you that it doesn' ; t stick out quite as much. I was wondering also if you remembered any of the debates or tension points within the JACL chapter when it came to redress, because there were a lot of decisions that had to be made, whether it was going with the commission approach, or going directly for legislation, or deciding who gets to testify. So I was just curious, does anything come to mind when you think about topics of conversation or debate that you had as a chapter? Kathy Biala: Again, my memory is so clouded on that. I don' ; t recall any conflict in our group, in our specific role of orchestrating and coordinating the hearings, I don' ; t recall any conflict at all. And I don' ; t even recall us talking more about the systemic racism involved, and maybe we didn' ; t use those terms in those days, but now if I think about so many of the injustices that I' ; m involved with in social and racial inequities and injustices -- I have a lot of emotions. And it' ; s propelled me personally to do more reading about racism in this country, and I' ; d never needed to or never felt driven to learn more about this thing called systemic racism. And the internment was one of the most egregious systemic injustices on a racial ground. And yet, I don' ; t recall ever being propelled to do more reading about racism at the time. It was kind of like, " ; This happened, and now we' ; re trying to redress it," ; but it didn' ; t morph into something more outrageous about racism across the country. It was maybe compartmentalized. I' ; m not sure how to, why it didn' ; t stimulate me to do what I' ; m doing today, to really try to understand how did this thing happen? How is it possible that we got into this situation? And learning about more dynamics of the impact of systemic racism on people of color? It didn' ; t propel me to do that. Now, I don' ; t know whether we had discussions about it, but even if I have any discussions about racism today, and this is how many years later, it still provokes so much emotions not just for me, but to anyone out there talking about it, to people of color, to people defending themselves against racism, saying they' ; re not racist when in fact they could be. And so there' ; s a lot of things that I' ; ve just understood now that never in the past did I feel this was something that was of the same topic. It was almost like it wasn' ; t part of a global or national issue of racism, and it absolutely was. Katherine Nagasawa: So that you saw it maybe more as an isolated injustice that needed redressing, but not connecting it to other communities' ; plights necessarily, maybe. Kathy Biala: That' ; s probably so. And in addition that it didn' ; t pique my curiosity in terms of what was written, and what the state of knowledge is about racism in general. And I' ; m sure, because the civil rights issues were preceding this whole thing. And so all of that, but it didn' ; t stimulate me to do reading. And now my bookshelf is full of publications and books about this issue of racism. How does it still persist? How do we understand it? What are the solutions? I have such a deep interest now in it, and also deep concern, because I have of recent times becoming a public official, been subject to alarming attacks based on the fact that I' ; m a person of color, which seems unbelievable. I consider myself a typical " ; model minority," ; I' ; m educated, I' ; m articulate, I write well, I dress well, I' ; ve always have felt that pressure to be the best dressed in any circumstances. So yet I' ; m still exposed to some very blatant racist attacks. That is the bridge. Why am I saying this to you in 2022 when we' ; re talking about something that happened in 1981? And it' ; s still here, it' ; s still present. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, it' ; s just interesting comparing what drove you then versus what drives you now and just how much that has changed over time. Kathy Biala: Yeah. I do wonder why we didn' ; t talk about this in the context of general racism. It didn' ; t actually broaden itself to a discussion even among the JACLers, because I don' ; t recall any discussion even about the pushback that I' ; m sure must have been there at the time in the news. I have been recently involved in the ending of a terrible cultural appropriations issue with the Feast of Lanterns in Pacific Grove. It' ; s gained statewide attention as a matter of fact. And I just wonder how we didn' ; t think of it in a broader context. And even when my involvement, I have been singled out by elected officials running for offices, specifically aimed at me because of my involvement in giving testimony about the Feast of Lanterns in Pacific Grove. Now, there have been a lot of editorials in our local papers that are pretty racist in retaliation for this movement to rectify the cultural appropriation of an annual event, a popular annual event called The Feast of Lanterns. So they were very unkind and very, in my opinion, racist comments that were being published as Letters to the Editor. Now, you would think that back in 1981, that they would' ; ve had the same experience. I' ; m sure the papers must have been filled with a lot of pushback of saying, " ; Why are they bringing up something that happened so long ago? What gives them the right to start saying that we' ; re going to spend our taxpayer money on redress? They' ; ve gotten over it, they' ; ve succeeded far above everyone else." ; But I didn' ; t get exposure to what else was happening out there. And it must have been. But I don' ; t recall us talking about it or revealing these things among ourselves to say, " ; This is why this has to be now, this is why we have to do this. Because this kind of sentiment makes it want to be erased from history. And the legitimacy of what we' ; re doing is being challenged all the time in newspapers, or letters of editors, or ..." ; I don' ; t recall any harassment happening, but it seems like, just based on what I' ; m experiencing now in my small world here, that there must have been a lot of pushback. But I' ; m not aware of it. I wasn' ; t aware of it at the time. And now retrospectively, I' ; m not even aware that it happened at the time. Katherine Nagasawa: I remember Bill Yoshino did mention to me that the context of anti-Japanese hate, because of the trade war with Japan in the ' ; 80s, made it difficult to lobby for redress because people would associate Japanese American redress with Japan and then get confused. Or there was just general anti-Asian sentiment with Vincent Chin' ; s murder, and kind of what was happening with the manufacturing industry in the Midwest. So at least from his vantage point -- and he was looking at kind of the broader region. I think he was aware of a lot of that pushback, or maybe it came to him because he was the chair. And so maybe members might not have had it directed at them. But that is an interesting observation that at least you don' ; t remember conversations as a chapter. Kathy Biala: No, no. Katherine Nagasawa: I was wondering if you could talk more about the Nisei involved in JACL. And what was the relationship between their generation and then those younger Sansei that you were part of? What role do you feel like each generation played in redress? Kathy Biala: Well actually, when I think about it, Betty Hasegawa is Nisei, right? Yeah? Katherine Nagasawa: I think so. Kathy Biala: I think so, too. And Frank Sakamoto was. And quite frankly, outside of those two, I don' ; t recall a whole lot of Nisei being involved in the Chicago chapter. And yet I know that we inherited their legacy because the JACL was strong. And so somehow, they made this dramatic handing over the baton to the next generation. That was their legacy. And it really did happen because judging from my photos, they' ; re all Sansei people that were involved in this. But I don' ; t recall other specific interactions. And I just remember Frank Sakamoto being the cheerleader for JACL. And so he must have thought that it was important to get more Sansei involved. So I don' ; t recall that there was involvement of a lot of Nisei. No, I can' ; t say that I know that. Katherine Nagasawa: What about Chiye Tomihiro? Do you remember her? She was, I think, the head of the Witness Identification Committee. In general, I think she was one of the most involved Nisei in the chapter. And I know also Shig Wakamatsu was involved as well. And do you remember Sam Ozaki at all? Kathy Biala: Mm-mm. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. I think they would have been much older than you, but it seems like maybe there were kind of factions, or there was a strong Sansei cohort. And then maybe the Nisei were in their own kind of group, or something? Kathy Biala: Could be. Katherine Nagasawa: But yeah. I also wonder what it was like for you to actually be at the commission hearings. Could you paint a picture for me of what the room was like? Any details that you remember from the day, whether it was listening to your uncle or helping with the JACL organization? Kathy Biala: It' ; s very, very blurry. I just remember a large room. And I remember that in order to expedite the hearing, that we were trying to be very efficient, so that when people' ; s names were called they were put into a holding section. And so when it came to their turn, they were. It was very efficient. I think we were very focused, or at least I recall our being really focused. Not so much on the content and stuff, but really making sure that this came off very organized and orderly and not wasting a lot of time. Because I' ; ve been through many public hearings now and the thing is so lengthy because people are trying to get to their seats, and having to go through many different rows of people, and everybody' ; s waiting. And there' ; s just so much downtime. So I do recall mostly that. And I do recall being there and a man who I never knew came up to me and he had a packet of original newsletters from one of the internment camps. And he had been asking around who could he give this to? And somebody told him to find me. And so I received them. And I actually donated them to the Chicago chapter of the JACL. So I hope that they have all of that. And I had made copies, which I thought I had still saved them, but I can' ; t find them. But anyway, this man turned out to be a person that I married and was married for eight and a half years. Not such a good ending. But anyway, I had met him during the hearings. And I do recall perusing those newsletters. And what was stunning to me is that these are the folks who were so dramatically affected. Their whole lives turned upside down and they were incarcerated in horrible places, dismal environmental places, with guards and everything. And if you looked at these newsletters, it was as though it was a social club. It was as though there was nothing going on around them, that there were baseball teams, that there was asking for volunteers for this event, or it was so normal that it was just shocking to me when I actually read the newsletters. And that' ; s all that I recall from that. So it' ; s something to look at for people to understand how the internees had to, so much, try to be normal for their families, for their future. And it was just such a shock, because it was so opposite of what the real situation was. And there was no mention of any of their struggles or their worries or their concerns for their family. There was nothing in that. You would think it was just a camp, a summer camp. A nice summer camp that they went to. Katherine Nagasawa: I wonder how much those camp newsletters were censored, too. Kathy Biala: That' ; s probably true. Katherine Nagasawa: And also maybe if it was written from a younger person' ; s perspective, it might be different than an adult. Kathy Biala: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I think what' ; s striking to me is during the actual testimonies, those kinds of details that would have gotten buried, came out, whether it was somebody whose father was sick with cancer and then they had to be separated when the family left. Or some of these really traumatic experiences of having to be the head of the family at 13. I guess, do you remember any of those -- your reaction to those kinds of details -- when you heard the kind of raw emotion? Kathy Biala: I don' ; t, I' ; m sorry. I just don' ; t. My aunt said to me about her experience in the camp, and again, this sort of goes along with the newsletter. She says, " ; I can' ; t stand apple butter. We had so much apple butter in the camps that just the thought of it," ; she says, " ; is repulsive." ; So again, it' ; s this focus on the smaller aspects. Maybe in order to cope with the larger tragedy. I don' ; t know. But I' ; m sorry, I don' ; t recall- Katherine Nagasawa: No worries. Kathy Biala: ... My own experience hearing some of the tragedy, other than it be sort of cerebral. That, my gosh, this is what really happened. It wasn' ; t the emotional impact. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember if any family members attended the hearings, besides just your uncle and you? Kathy Biala: You know, I don' ; t. I don' ; t think they did. And I' ; m pretty sure that even his children didn' ; t attend. Katherine Nagasawa: Not even his wife, you think? Kathy Biala: Mm-mm (negative). Katherine Nagasawa: No? Kathy Biala: Yeah, because I was very close to my aunt. And I don' ; t recall interacting with her at all. I think he just came by himself. Katherine Nagasawa: And I think they would have had to take work off too, which might have been challenging. Kathy Biala: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: I think we talked about this on the phone, but I' ; m curious, and this is something we' ; re trying to understand broadly, from all the people we' ; re interviewing, is what made the Midwest unique in the redress movement? And I think you mentioned something about the type of person that would have stayed in the Midwest compared to the West Coast, and that ... I don' ; t know, bringing out something different in the community. But what would your answer be to that question, about what stands out to you about the Midwest? Kathy Biala: Yeah. I do think there probably was a difference, because people, rather than coming back to try and pick up the pieces of their former lives on the West Coast, the people who said, made a concerted decision that I' ; m leaving all this behind, either because it was so traumatic, or because they simply felt they could make it in a better place elsewhere. And so they packed up and they traveled quite a long way. I know even today, if I ever have to go back to the Midwest, it' ; s a long flight. And it probably was very expensive at the time. And so these kinds of folks with this kind of determination might have sort of selected out a different kind of person who was brave enough to try their hand at something completely new and unknown. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s true, that you would feel comfortable staying in that kind of environment, rather than going back to what' ; s maybe familiar. Kathy Biala: Right. And you know Chicago. I was born and raised in Chicago, so I know what the conditions of weather are, and Chicago is definitely the Windy City. And when it' ; s wintertime and you have that wind blowing, I mean, we are talking minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit. So for the Californians to pack up and go to a place where the summers are hot and humid and the winters are incredibly cold -- it' ; s a very new experience from California. So I' ; ve gone the other way. I' ; m so happy to leave the weather conditions in Chicago and you couldn' ; t make me move anywhere except California. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s funny. I feel like I did a yo-yo, or a boomerang. Grew up in California, spent 10 years in Chicago, now I' ; m back in the warm weather. Kathy Biala: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I was curious what you feel like the JA community would be like if that redress process never happened? Kathy Biala: Well, the redress part ... Well, I think that because of the internment camps, everything that people had built up was really lost. I mean, I have just recently encountered a book of this area, which is the central coast of Marina that includes ... I mean, the central coast of California that includes the peninsula. And I have recently encountered a map outlining the businesses on the now very famous Monterey Wharf. Before the internment camps, there was 50% businesses on the wharf that were Japanese American. And the map included the names of the businesses, the people, the owners of the businesses. And now, if you look at what' ; s on the Monterey Wharf, there are zero Japanese American owners. And so that is intergenerational wealth lost forever. So had there not been redress ... And I' ; m not sure the value of $30,000 at the time when it was disseminated, but you can' ; t possibly make up that kind of loss. And so whether ... I doubt that even that amount of money could have re-bought what you had lost, in terms of a business location on Monterey Wharf. It' ; s really sad when you think about the opportunities for other generations to have benefited from the legacy of the first and second generations. And it was just all taken away from them. And so had it not been for redress, I don' ; t know that it would' ; ve mattered so much -- not money wise anyway. The issue for redress, to me, is not so much the money, because apparently, as you told me, which I was unaware of, that many of the recipients did donate to causes, or to, to make sure that the legacy, the history of the Japanese American internment camps was known and cemented somewhere in textbooks or out there in the world of information. So I don' ; t know that the money redress part was so important. But certainly, as we' ; ve talked about, having that voice and being able to say to other Americans what actually happened, that -- the redress was so important. Now, it didn' ; t take the commission hearings to have that goal. We could have had that regardless, right? I mean, we didn' ; t have to have the commission redress hearings. But for some reason we didn' ; t have, as a community, the voice or the means in media to really make a difference in that. So it did take the commission hearings at a federal level. But I' ; m glad that we had that. And not, again, for the money. It' ; s not about the money. It' ; s the story that had to come out again. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. That' ; s so interesting how it' ; s kind of related to what you were saying about " ; What does healing look like to you?" ; in that article that you shared with me. Can you answer that question, but thinking about what it means for Japanese Americans to be healed? Is it ever over, I guess? And what did it mean to heal for you? Kathy Biala: Well, if I put in context this issue of, " ; Am I healed?" ; Going through an experience like that, just even peripherally, and also, if I was an internee, I would say that the healing of saying your story doesn' ; t really hit the spot. My uncle, I remember asking him, " ; Uncle Hiro, do you think this could ever happen again?" ; And I was professional person, Sansei, had a good job, et cetera. And I was just utterly shocked when he said, " ; Oh, yeah. I think it could happen again." ; And I said, " ; Really?" ; He says, " ; Yes." ; It was just really shocking to me that he could say that. But now, based on what I' ; m experiencing, 2022, yes. I absolutely think that the issues of racism are very deep in this country. And any time there is the need to serve the majority population, all of the social and racial and environmental justice can easily be put out the window. And so I absolutely concur with him, that in many different shapes and forms, it will absolutely and could and does happen today. So I' ; m not sure how we heal, if healing means that we have the feeling that it will never happen again, or we have advanced to the place where we don' ; t have to worry about it. That' ; s not healing. The healing is only that, as we gain more confidence in ourselves, that we are not going to be silent about it, that we will have the ability now to, as people often say, is " ; in solidarity." ; That phrase now has a new meaning for me, because only in our not being passive, and our banding together on the assaults to any one of us, or any one group of us, that' ; s the only way we' ; ll have a chance to prevent it. That' ; s healing for me, when I see that the Asian community has now gained a voice, and that we are not so reticent anymore. And especially the younger people because I' ; ve put myself out there on the limb for a lot of stuff recently, but I' ; m always impressed by the younger Asian Americans, who quite freely speak up. Their voices are strong. They have, to me, a lot of courage just sort of popping out. For me, I have to worry about it. I have to prepare for it. I have to think so much of all the consequences. And they are different. They see something wrong and they will say, you know, " ; This is wrong," ; and be able to articulate without having to have all the anxiety that I have to have. That' ; s what I think makes me hopeful, is that the younger people are not constrained by what will other people think of me, and, oh, what are the consequences? And my self-esteem is affected because these people are going to be saying nasty things and mean things to me, et cetera, et cetera. I am out there, but I suffer a lot because of that inner voice that I haven' ; t been able to grapple with. I have to keep telling myself over and over when I stick my neck out there. I have to keep saying, " ; They can' ; t hurt me." ; I have to keep that mantra in me because something inside me says they are going to hurt me, and they will hurt me. Whereas some of the younger people, they' ; re so brave, and they' ; re so willing to put themselves out. So we just have to kind of encourage that more. And I' ; m really hopeful that we can develop the younger generation leadership. And that means kind of breaking out from our cultural heritage because we are the older generation, because I can now say I' ; m the older generation. We have been so hampered by passivity, by thinking of what other people think, rather than staying the course and being out there, and not just bystanders. And I mean, not just for the Asian community, but for other people of color, as well. Katherine Nagasawa: How do you think redress played a role -- that process of advocating for redress, testifying, organizing -- how do you feel like that strengthened that, as you refer to it, the voice of the Japanese American community? Kathy Biala: Well, I will tell you just in the one instance that I was very intimately connected with, and that was my uncle. This was a guy who I had never dreamed had that kind of powerful voice. And he did it. And if he can do it, and I don' ; t know that he' ; s done it since that time, but one person learning how to do it, seeing how important it is, and risking whatever is happening to them, that' ; s hope. That' ; s healing. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s powerful. Yeah. It' ; s almost like cultivating, like the process isn' ; t over, but you' ; re cultivating your resilience or ability to stand up in the future. And I feel like, when I was talking to Bill Yoshino, he said the one big opportunity the community had to exercise voice was after 9/11 when a lot of leaders in JACL did speak up in support of Muslim Americans and saying, " ; We cannot let this happen to their community." ; I guess, have you reflected on that? Or have you seen Japanese Americans exercise voice in other public ways? Or maybe, just answering directly from your experience, how have you exercised voice since moving to Marina? Kathy Biala: I did this in several ways, I think, in my political career, post-retirement. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you mind re-answering that question but just including, " ; I exercised the ability to speak out," ; or just referring to what you were ... Yeah. Kathy Biala: Well, in answer to your question about have I personally been able to be more vocal about issues of race and injustice, and I would say in my post-retirement time as an appointee on the planning commission, and then now as an elected official, as the Mayor Pro Tem of the City of Marina, I have really grown. And I look back and say, " ; Well, maybe the redress participation that I had was a precursor." ; I didn' ; t recognize it as that, but I do think that now that I have the time and the energy to do this, I have done so many things that I' ; m even amazed that I' ; ve done. The first one was that I pushed an appendix to the downtown vitalization specific plan, in which we included subtle Asian designs in the appendix. And to get that in, I was the only person of color in a task force of 12, and over a year and a half I experienced so many microaggressions about racial issues. There was nobody there to support me. And the Asian community, who were unbelievable, came to the audience and did speak up. That was the first time many of them had ever attended a public hearing and done any statements, and this was a very informal one granted, it wasn' ; t even recorded unfortunately because of the setting. But I endured that for a year and a half, and it culminated actually with the committee voting to not even include this document as part of the specific plan going forward to the planning commission. We averted that, but that' ; s one example. My first example of what happens. And these things are very subtle. I gave a wonderful slide presentation on the diversity of Marina and everybody clapped, but afterwards apparently two separate groups went and complained about why I was allowed to do this. Again, these kinds of actions are there all the time, and you have to learn how to keep at it, and hopefully this appendix, which is still unapproved in terms of the whole specific plan, and it' ; s coming maybe in a year, hopefully that it will not disappear, because of the kind of effort that we all had to do for that. And then the Feast of Lantern... And by the way, I did experience a lot of racism, as I said, running for city council, and that was tremendously traumatic to me because it was an issue of power of people on the old council sitting on the dais doing this to a candidate of color. It was very tragic. I endured that as well. Then with the Feast of Lanterns, specifically, I was able to encourage Asian communities of Marina -- these are the residents of the City of Marina -- to be able to speak at another city' ; s city council, looking at the issues of this Feast of Lanterns in which historically the Chinese village in Pacific Grove was one of the largest settlements in California Coast at the time, and they were, by racist activities, their entire village was burned to the ground. That was in 1906. And after that, Pacific Grove continued to perpetuate a Feast of Lanterns in which a made-up story about the Chinese was perpetuated in which people were allowed to boo the Mandarin King. And they had a topaz, a what was it? A beauty contest in which Caucasian women dressed in Chinese garb and painted their faces yellow and taped up their eyes. If that isn' ; t cultural appropriation? And yet this Feast of Lanterns has been going on up until two years ago, a year ago, when we were finally able to advocate against it. But in that process a lot of racist things were said by the population in Pacific Grove. So we know, again, racism is alive and well. I also was singled out by an unkind comment because I had spoken at the Pacific Grove City Council as well. So these things I have taken hits for but felt very compelled that we do deserve representation, that we do deserve to be respected, and we just have to plow through it and somebody has to take the risks. If we are silent, they would' ; ve continued to have that Feast of Lanterns. And one of the original descendants of that village, Randy, his wife, Gerry Sabado, had been fighting this for 10 years. 10 years. Trying to get the Feast of Lanterns to be more culturally appropriate and also without the racist elements. 10 years nothing happened. She was ignored. She was in some cases vilified or dismissed. And once she passed away, within two months, the rest of us from Asian communities of Marina and Coalition for Asian Justice, we' ; re all fairly new organizations in the region, we got it done and we were able to stop the Feast of Lanterns. So again, this is proof that if we stay together, if we have the solidarity that we hope that we can generate, we can change many things. But as individuals, it will take a much longer time. So, yes, I think I have learned that if we stay together, and our voice is so much stronger. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you talk about some of the work you' ; ve done with bringing together a Pan-Asian community in Marina, and why that fits into this larger effort to unify Asian American voices to speak up? Kathy Biala: Yeah. It was about maybe five years ago now that because Marina has a very large percentage of our population is Asians, and that' ; s because of the military. The American government stationed American GIs who married foreign brides, specifically Asian brides, from World War II, from the Korean War and the Vietnam War. They were stationed in Marina. And so we have benefited from that governmental initiative, and I don' ; t know whether that was in a negative way or whether it was in a perceived as being a positive thing, but it did end up to be a very positive thing for us, because we have such a high percentage, and that' ; s continued. And I think that we have our Asian Communities of Marina has Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, and South Asian -- we' ; re working on that one. So we have all of these. And Vietnamese. We have all of these populations involved now in one organization, and we' ; re learning how to pronounce each other' ; s names correctly, and we' ; re learning more about each other' ; s histories. But it' ; s difficult. We always want to say that we are Asian Americans, but based on the global history of our countries, it' ; s been somewhat difficult in the newer immigrants, who are Americans, and the third and fourth generation of Asian Americans, we think differently. Sometimes what' ; s been hampering our organization is the history of oppression of, let' ; s say, Japan with many of the countries. And so we have some tension in our group. And so we' ; ve chosen to focus on Asian American history of which each of our cultures has inevitably experienced some global racist oppression or discrimination, and that is the history that' ; s binding for us. And I hope that we' ; re going to be able to, with a lot of talking and discussions as well as being supportive of any of the events that I' ; ve spoken about, that we regardless of whether it' ; s supporting Chinese Americans or Filipino Americans, our group will be there if there' ; s any violence or repercussions or discrimination and prejudice in our world, in our microcosm of the world. And so I always look at our local region as being the microcosm of the world because if we can' ; t in Marina, in this kind of organization, find a way to be always respectful and united as vastly different Asian groups, then what hope do we have when we say " ; Pan-Asian" ; out there, that we' ; re all grouped together, and yet functionally on a one-to-one basis, we can' ; t get along? That to me is why this is so important that we bridge these gaps, even at our local level. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you also talk about the work that you did with the Coastal Commission and sort of how that ties into helping a community find its voice, or speaking out in support of a marginalized group? Kathy Biala: Yes, I' ; d be happy to talk about this very recent California Coastal Commission hearing, just happened November 17th. I' ; m still kind of taking a deep breath and trying to understand this from a larger perspective and maybe a more balanced personal perspective. But I had been very involved in this as one of the leadership in our community to fight the CalAm, which is a private, for-profit mega corporation water company, that because of their mismanagement, in my opinion, of the water source on the peninsula, the wealthy tourist peninsula, Monterey Peninsula, they needed a new source of water. And so they decided to put a desalination project on Marina' ; s beaches and to pump massive amounts of our water, including our groundwater, which is our sole source of water, by the way, potable water, to pump that and to desalinate it in the county facility that they would build and ship a hundred percent of it to the peninsula, which is white and wealthy. And Marina was never to get any of its water, but destroy our wildlife on our pristine beaches and to block an access for which... Marina worked very hard to close the last active sand mining on any U.S. shores, and that was going to result in in a year, it' ; s been five years now, in a year, that whole Cemex sand mining on our coast is going to be shut down for good and be sold to public agencies and dedicated to conservation and low impact recreation in perpetuity. That' ; s what we were expecting on that property. And on that same property, CalAm intruded, and without legal water rights, had perpetuated and advanced this illicit project. And two years ago at the last hearing in which the Coastal Commission considered this project, they clearly said, " ; This is an environmental justice to a disadvantaged community of color." ; And they recommended denial of this project. CalAm pulled their application the night before the decision was going to be made in 2020. We haven' ; t heard from them for two years, and then now with a new application, with actually another application, they have now had the time in two years to mobilize the governor' ; s office, and all the other politicians, so that now this hearing was an absolute sham. And they approved it with significant issues still pending, and with the environmental injustice reasons clearly intact, so they were able to get this approved. And that just happened, and this is in some ways as big of a decision as the internment camp. That ignoring all of the social and racial injustices of an action got approved by the government and is now being enacted. It' ; s the same kind of thing and you have to say, " ; How is it that in this day and age when we know that most coastal cities in California and probably on the east-coast are white and wealthy? How does that happen?" ; And Marina is one of the last few disadvantaged communities of color that has an ocean front. And this is what happened. They' ; re going to ruin it because they have greater needs for another community and that overshadows anything. And when you speak of disadvantaged communities of color and environmental justice, you are also talking about racism. And the same goes, I believe, for the internment camps, whether it was economically more advantageous to the majority culture, and we were discounted and ignored and preyed on basically. This is what the injustice is all about. And somehow even in modern times from 1981 to today, these things are still happening. Even though we have policies, Coastal Commission has a great policy on environmental injustice as does most of the state organizations now in California. But what is the good of having a statement that you' ; re an American citizen or a statement that says that, " ; We are aware of environmental injustice and here are all the facts related to that." ; What is the purpose of any of this if it can be sold, if it can be suppressed, if it can be ignored in a flash of a second? It can happen. It' ; s still happening. Katherine Nagasawa: What was the role that you played with the Coastal Commission issue? Can you talk about what you personally did? Kathy Biala: I did a lot, from six years ago when it was being heard at the California Public Utilities Commission, I and some colleagues on the Peninsula, because the water is for the benefit of the peninsula but they don' ; t even want it. They are paying the highest rates of water in the country, and CalAm has not been a good purveyor of water all these many years and they don' ; t want to jump to the highest cost water when there is an alternative of recycled water, and that' ; s a fact. But so I' ; ve had lots of colleagues on the peninsula. We went all over the state talking with legislators. We have had many times where we rallied our community to go and speak at the CPUC, and yet it passed, their environmental impact report passed. Then it shifted to the Coastal Commission. And I will tell you that I have been such an advocate and outspoken person against this project that when I was a planning commissioner, they came to Marina for what we call a Coastal Development Permit. I was on the planning commission at the time. CalAm wrote an exposé on me that was literally this thick, with CDs in the back of it, tracing everything that I had ever said, any appearances or educational forums, including pictures of me testifying, or being in an educational forum. This was done, by the way, by the second-largest attorney firm in the world, in the world. And I was a volunteer on a planning commission in a small city. That' ; s how much that they saw me as a threat. And since that time, even as an elected person, I continue to rally our troops. There were two hearings before this November 17th, one of which, the last one of course, we rallied everybody, but they pulled their application so all of that went down the drain. But the other one before that, we were so proud of our community. It took an extraordinary amount of work to get people of color in our community to rally and pack the venues, absolutely pack the venues, and I can show you some of the videotapes that we made on it. It was stunning. So that was maybe one of the first ways that I started getting connected with our minority populations, or not minority anymore in this city, but typically the racial and ethnic marginalized communities. It brought tears to the commissioners to see the sincerity of all these people of color showing up to testify. They have seen many different projects in which there are maybe a handful of people speaking up, but Marina showed them that we do care, and that we can speak up because they were supporting us and our communities of color rallied. It was very inspirational. And so we did that twice, but CalAm pulled it for two years, it was nothing. This is one of their strategies. These corporations can wear us down. We were able to do that for the last two months, preceding the November 17th, because we only had two months now to rally our whole troops again. We did a fabulous job. There were 300 people that spoke. It was absolutely stunning. And we had our minority groups speaking, including our Asian Communities of Marina. It was beyond our wildest expectation. There was a lot of hard work put into it, but we succeeded in our end of it and, of course, politics prevailed instead. But again, this is something that takes time, and I was a very much grassroots mobilizer. Even working as an official of City of Marina, I could also still wear my hat as a citizen of the community. And so we were able to rally the troops because the government as a whole doesn' ; t have the connections nor the capacity to do what grassroots mobilization can do. Katherine Nagasawa: Can I share something that I' ; ve sort of observed about you having this conversation and connecting the dots from things I' ; ve read about you in the past? I feel like since you were really young, you were always interested in enabling people to speak for themselves or to stand up for themselves and share their story. Even if you don' ; t remember exactly the process in 1981, you were part of the team that identified witnesses and galvanized the community to share their story and pulled people like your uncle in to speak up. And there were similar hearings and similar commissioners that were witnessing that. And I feel like today, at the age of 70, you are rallying other members of marginalized communities to speak up. And it' ; s really powerful to see that through line in your life. And just when you were saying about voice, the power of enabling somebody. Maybe you' ; re not the one who' ; s always speaking, but you are prodding them, or you' ; re giving them the stage. Kathy Biala: Yeah. And I didn' ; t quite understand that until you came into my life, where I' ; m having to look back at my life in one story, but I think that' ; s true. And I have to say that it might even go beyond that because even in high school and prior to that, I always attached myself to the underdog. I think that I never saw myself as being popular. And even in the face of rejection by the people that were the popular kids in school, I always gravitated to the ones that were the outsiders or the rejects, so to speak. And so maybe that' ; s the kind of personality trait that one has to have, is that we believe, truly believe, that everybody is equal, that we all have the ability to have what other people have. And maybe that' ; s the kind of thing is that I' ; ve always had that soft spot for the stray dogs. My husband jokes and says, " ; Well, that' ; s why you married me, Kathy." ; But I think it' ; s that position of truly caring about the people who don' ; t have a voice or who are rejected by the powers that be. And so that maybe is a thread of my life. I don' ; t know. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Could you talk about that a little bit, about that through line of getting your uncle and getting other Japanese Americans to testify back then, and then that work that you' ; re doing now to do a very similar kind of act. Kathy Biala: Yeah. I think there' ; s two things about this that I think is important to recognize, because I belong to two very distinct Asian justice groups, the ACOM, the Asian Communities of Marina, that is more of our grassroots people. And then I have this Coalition for Asian Justice. These are professor types, these are high-powered people who in the past had significant careers, they' ; re very articulate, they' ; re very scholarly and academic and influential. And then I have this other hat that I wear, of people who may have very strong accents, who are not necessarily professor types or are just more of the grassroots people here in Marina. So I have both -- I have a foot in each of those. I think that we can' ; t discount either one of them in our movement to gain more visibility and respect and inclusion, because we need the people who are articulate, who have no problems going up and reciting facts and speaking the language of the power people essentially. And then we have all the people that are who we are representing, and they are not going to be the elites. They are going to be the average people who want to have a good life here in America and who may be very shy about speaking in public. I think that was so in redress and it' ; s so in anything I' ; ve done here, is that going up to a podium in front of a large group of people on a dais who often don' ; t look like you and who are very powerful people? To expect all these people to go up and speak, that' ; s why they don' ; t do it. But I have seen now where people are able to do this and they' ; re willing to do this, but they need the encouragement. They need the backing to be able to do that. So we need both, one can' ; t exist without the other. If the Coalition for Asian Justice, in very sophisticated ways, know how to mobilize politicians, know how to go up in public hearings or write legal documents, because I' ; ve done all of that too. These are special skills, to be able to talk to the system that is oppressing you. You won' ; t get that much traction unless you know how to maneuver, unless you know how to address them in their own game, so to speak. And then we have all the people for which you are fighting for, and they are the numbers. They are the people who, by numbers, are the people for whom we are advocating for. They can have a tremendous amount of power when they show up in numbers that a handful of the elite people won' ; t be able to do. We won' ; t be able to make that impact. And so I' ; ve learned to be able to speak in both camps. So when I speak to some folks who are English as a second language or who may not be able to speak so articulately, I have to be able to communicate to them in a way that is effective. And then I can hang out with the most educated people because I can speak their language. I don' ; t mean other than English, I' ; m speaking of, in the same vein, and be able to be respected on their terms, which is important. Because when we talk about systemic racism, you have to be able to speak to the system and not as an outsider. And so I think we need both of those talents. And for some reason I think that I have bridged that gap. And particularly because I also know poverty. As a child, we were very, very poor and my father was really, really poor. I don' ; t know how, I do know how, but he was one of 10 children in the big island of Hawaii and somehow he managed to get a PhD from the best university in the country, one of the best. The University of Chicago has many Nobel Prize winners coming out of it and he' ; s in biochemistry. So somehow he made it in that way, but we were extremely poor when we were little and he was dirt poor as one of 10 children in the Big Island. So I know what that' ; s like, and I never consider myself an elite, having never been raised in that way. Even though I' ; m comfortable now, and I think I' ; m very privileged. We were able to all get an education only because the University of Chicago paid for the colleges that the three of us went to. But otherwise, I don' ; t know that I would' ; ve gotten my education, so to speak, without that financial help. And my father got it because of being a GI, the GI Bill helped him. Now, when I see myself, I know that I don' ; t have to worry about money. I don' ; t have to worry about all the things that I know that my fellow residents and neighbors struggle. We are a disadvantaged community of color. We' ; re being gentrified very quickly because we' ; re maybe the last coastal city with a lot of land still, and there are million dollar homes being built here as starter homes. Most of our people in Marina would never, never, in 10 lifetimes be able to have a starter home that' ; s $1.2 million. This is what' ; s happening here, so we have a lot of challenges to keep the culture of our city by getting affordable housing, and so we' ; re working on that. I' ; m personally working on that in terms of being in the Mayor Pro Tem role. But it keeps me centered, I would say. It keeps me centered to be in Marina and that' ; s why I love this town so much. Katherine Nagasawa: I guess you maybe have access to the elite world, but you still identify with a lot of the grassroots community world. Kathy Biala: Yeah, yeah. I think my effectiveness in rallying our city for the different causes, whether it' ; s lobbying against the Feast of Lanterns in another city or fighting for environmental injustice -- fighting for environmental justice -- in our community says that I have been effective somehow. Somehow I have not been seen as an elitist, and I am very grateful for that. Katherine Nagasawa: When you' ; re trying to encourage somebody who might be an ESL speaker, who might never have testified at a commission hearing before and is kind of reluctant, how do you convince them? What is your approach? Kathy Biala: I think that first, the reason for their testifying has to be really clear to them, that they have to feel the same kind of commitment in speaking that anyone speaking on the issue would have, but even more so for these folks because they are having to be so much braver than most people. I will tell you that, even myself, I remember when I first came here 10 years ago, I did my first public speaking in a neighboring city called Seaside because I had learned in the Earth Day Festival in Marina that they were planning to build a racetrack with hotels and it was a monster project. So I went to hear one of the hearings. And again, this was a big corporation, all the people that were supporting them had literally shirts with logos embroidered on the lapels and I was thinking, " ; Whoa, this is a little unbalanced here." ; I remember that they all lined up and it was coming to the end of the meeting and I said to my husband, I said, " ; I can' ; t let that be the last testimony." ; And so I said, " ; I' ; ve got to speak." ; I wrote some stuff down and I went up to the podium. I thought I was going to faint because my heart was racing so badly that I literally I was scared out of my wits. And public speaking is not my forte. In fact, as mayor pro tem, I shy away from it. I' ; m really articulate and well presented when I' ; m at the dais because I' ; m working on problems and I just speak as I am thinking and it' ; s over a specific issue. So I think I' ; m well respected as a member of the dais, but when it comes to ad-libbing or extemporaneous speaking, I freeze up. So in the last, oh, maybe three years ago I joined Toastmasters. When I became elected, I thought, " ; I just freeze up, I can' ; t do it." ; And so that' ; s helped me a little bit, but that' ; s me. And I taught at the university level in nursing at Fresno State and I' ; ve taught in Chicago at Rush Presbyterian St. Luke' ; s Medical Center in their College of Nursing. I' ; m a teacher, but I know what to say, this is my specialty, right? But if you ask me on the spot on something that I could be attacked for because they' ; re not there to listen to me or get a grade from me, it' ; s a whole different ballgame, and I' ; m always conscious of they' ; re going to laugh at me or I' ; m going to say something stupid in front of all these people, and so I freeze up. That' ; s me, and I' ; m highly educated and I speak English fluently, et cetera. Can you imagine what somebody who is a newer immigrant or English is not their first language or they work at the local drug store and they never would' ; ve seen themselves as coming up in front of a formal hearing to say anything? So our expectations have to be with real, sincere appreciation and spending so much more time in order to get them motivated. I do believe that. You can ask your neighbor who' ; s a Caucasian American and has good finances and has done a lot in the public eye and they' ; ll say, " ; Sure, I' ; ll do it." ; But with especially our Asian communities, you have to really handhold them and make it real to them and to make it simplified for them and to make it something that is important that they can do. Then you' ; re able to do it, but it takes a lot of time. Katherine Nagasawa: Like a slow introduction of the idea and convincing? How do you feel like helping identify and prepare witnesses for the Chicago redress hearings maybe informed or shaped that practice later on in life of trying to convince other people to share their stories? Kathy Biala: I think that there' ; s a direct correlation to that in my role then, which is cloudy for me, but since you say that I was so involved I have to take your word for it. And I want to read some of the things you presented to me. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you mind say saying that again, but saying, " ; I think there' ; s a direct correlation between my involvement in the 1980s Chicago ..." ; Yeah. Kathy Biala: Okay. I do think that there is a direct correlation between what I started off doing in 1981 at the redress hearings and what I' ; m still doing today, and that is helping people who have a story to tell, an important story for history and for other fellow Americans to hear, and that somehow they agree to participate in this because of how we' ; ve helped them to see that their story is important and make it easy for them, as easy as we could, because it still takes so much courage for them to step up and speak in front of these kinds of public venues. But that is what moves the decision, that could move the decision, is all of their participation. And so I think that that was maybe that helping role that I played at that time is also the same role that I' ; m playing today. And it' ; s been the mainstay of political decision making in my world. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you give a couple quick examples of what you mean by the role you' ; re playing today? Not going super into detail, but a couple of the, the Coastal Commission as well as the Festival of Lanterns. Kathy Biala: In both the Feast of Lanterns and also in the Cal Am desalination project, as well as even the downtown-specific plan in which we got an appendix related to Asian architecture in the specific plan, I think in all three of those instances the Asian community played a role in it, that Asians who heretofore had never conceived of themselves as, one, stepping up and voicing an opinion and not even realizing that their testimony, that their words, could actually make a huge impact, that was the thread that helped me to encourage that participation from that time all the way up through all these other things that I' ; ve done. And by myself, I could be the best leader in the world, but if you don' ; t have the people who you' ; re fighting for and advocating for also stepping up, it' ; s really quite meaningless in many cases. It can really make a significant impact if they are involved as well. And so I think we' ; ve accomplished that. And as time goes on, these people that hopefully were participating in redress in 1981 have also found that they can do the same kind of activity in many, many other forms like I have. I do think that was the start for me, an organized way of helping people get their voices, of marginalized communities getting their voice. Katherine Nagasawa: Beautiful, thank you so much. I think those are all the questions I had, but wanted to leave room for anything else you wanted to share or any final thoughts or reflections. Also, Matt, do you mind taking a picture of me interviewing her? We' ; re trying to document our process as well. If you don' ; t mind. Kathy Biala: Oh, great, great. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. But yeah, any final words you want to end with? Kathy Biala: I' ; m really grateful for this interview. I think you found me, despite the fact that I was Nakamoto, then I was Sasaki, and then now I' ; m Biala is amazing. And that you found me, let' ; s see, from see Chicago to Baltimore to Fresno to Marina. And there' ; s been other moves in between, but somehow you were able to find me. I think only the younger people know how to track people down in this way, but I' ; m very grateful because, as you see, my self-reflection about one event has led me to look at the threads in my whole life and to see that there is in fact ties from one experience to the next and it' ; s all really about the same thing, but you don' ; t usually see it that way, because I haven' ; t had the chance to reflect back at my whole life. And I think that this interview has really done that for me. And I' ; m surprised, because initially all I could say is that I don' ; t recall anything much about the 1981 hearings. I truly believed that. And now, I' ; m feeling that there is such a common thread throughout my life and it' ; s pieced together some really important things for me about who I am, but also about how we advance our causes in the future as Asian Americans. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m so happy that it was able to kind of connect the dots. I feel like even if some of the minute details have faded, it' ; s clear that you took lessons from that time, that you applied a lot of the same practices. I think that that is what is most interesting to me, beyond -- I' ; m sure we can look at photos and videos to figure out what it was like in the room or the list of witnesses who testified, but I think the connections that Sansei were able to make in their lives after redress, or what kind of takeaways there were, I think is a question that is not answered yet. And my interview with you just helped really clarify that for at least one person, that it really did shape a lot and inform a lot. So thank you. Yeah. Kathy Biala: Yeah, it' ; s been great. Katherine Nagasawa: Did you want to take a little bit of time to walk me through some more of the documents and we can look at anything else? Kathy Biala: Oh yeah. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BialaKathy20221212.xml BialaKathy20221212.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Biala, Kathy (12/12/2022)
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Kathy (Nakamoto) Biala, a Sansei born in Chicago, speaks about the tight-knit community of Sansei professionals who were involved in redress efforts for the Chicago JACL and describes her efforts to convince her uncle Hiro (Hiroshi) Kadokura to testify at the Chicago CWRIC hearings, where he spoke publicly about his incarceration experience for the first time. She draws connections between Japanese American incarceration and systemic racism towards other marginalized groups, and describes parallels between her experience identifying and preparing witnesses during the redress movement and her work activating low-income minority communities around Marina, CA to speak up against social and environmental injustices.
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2022-12-12
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Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Kagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
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Kojima, Wade
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KojimaWade20230106.xml
Interview Keyword
Intergenerational dynamics
Intergenerational trauma
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL
Twin Cities
Minneapolis, MN
Cleveland, OH
Redress
Sansei
OHMS Object Text
5.4 1/6/2023 Kojima, Wade (1/6/2023) 1:02:38 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Intergenerational dynamics Intergenerational trauma Japanese American Citizens League JACL Twin Cities Minneapolis, MN Cleveland, OH Redress Sansei Kojima, Wade Kagasawa, Katherine video 1:|11(6)|21(8)|33(13)|47(8)|69(9)|81(7)|95(3)|104(4)|116(3)|128(11)|137(10)|152(3)|160(14)|173(3)|181(13)|192(16)|203(2)|212(11)|222(13)|237(2)|246(9)|256(3)|270(18)|283(10)|305(3)|318(2)|337(9)|355(12)|368(8)|378(1)|391(10)|400(9)|421(4)|434(4)|442(7)|454(14)|462(9)|474(7)|487(3)|500(5)|511(10)|523(7)|534(4)|542(5)|552(7)|566(14)|579(15)|597(3)|609(4)|617(9)|631(9)|643(3)|658(11)|674(8)|691(3)|703(16)|710(10)|718(7)|737(10)|753(3)|773(11)|794(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/824880514/03ed6a4cc7 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/824880514?h=03ed6a4cc7" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Wade Kojima, a Sansei with roots in Hawaii, describes his involvement in the JACL's redress efforts in Minnesota and Ohio. First via involvement with a Japanese American youth organization, and later as a board member of the Twin Cities JACL Chapter and Redress Chair of the Cleveland JACL Chapter, he shares his observations of the intergenerational dynamics between Nisei and Sansei at the time of the redress movement. He recalls the challenges of being an outsider trying to gain the trust of community members in Cleveland, the support he received from his wife's family, and the names of many individuals who were involved in redress efforts in the Midwest. He also discusses lessons learned about leadership styles and personal reflections on the subject of intergenerational trauma. Katherine Nagasawa: So, today is January 6th, 2023, and this oral history is being recorded over Zoom. The interviewer is Katherine Nagasawa and the interviewee is Wade Kojima. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So I was wondering if you could just start with when you first heard about the redress movement, and what your reaction was to it. Wade Kojima: The first time I heard about redress was probably in 1976. Maybe ' ; 75. But I was in a Japanese American youth organization, and JACL was just starting to try to gear up for it and talking about it at a convention. I think they talked about it in ' ; 74, but in ' ; 76, I know it was a big item on the agenda. And, so I, for me it was something-- I mean I knew about the camps and everything, but just getting background on all that back then. And so that' ; s how I got some of my history. And then in ' ; 78, I became the Midwest district chair for the J-- for the youth group, so I sat on the national board level as well. And so that was a major discussion, and I knew, I got to know John Tateishi, and so I learned a lot from him as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And up until the mid-' ; 70s, what did you know about camp? Wade Kojima: I didn' ; t know a whole lot because... Only what I heard from some of the JACL, is ' ; cause my parents were not in camp because they grew up in Hawaii, so I just knew that there was, you know they went to relocation centers. And then there was so many different camps throughout the mountains and the desert areas. And then, you know whatever the Niseis told us about it, then that' ; s about what I knew about it. And, and then I found out that my grandfather actually was in a Justice Department camp in Santa Fe. Katherine Nagasawa: And how did you find out about that? Did he tell you directly, or did you hear from a different relative? Wade Kojima: No, I heard it from my mom and then some other relatives, but we never, my grandfather never talked about it, so... We basically... So I don' ; t know anything from his perspective. Katherine Nagasawa: And when you started hearing more about plans for redress from John Tateishi when you were part of-- when you were representing the Midwest, what did you think about the idea of asking for an apology or asking for monetary compensation? Wade Kojima: Well, I felt that the apology was probably necessary. I didn' ; t know about that monetary compensation, because most of... The people that suffered the most, I felt, when I, as I was learning, were the Isseis. You know the Niseis had, were pretty well off, you know as far as their careers and everything, but it was the Isseis that basically lost everything. You know, when you start hearing that you know, they lost their farm lands, they lost all their possessions, people that had businesses lost that, and, and they were never compensated for it, or very, it was a very small amount of compensation. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Wade Kojima: So, but the Isseis were you know, by the time late ' ; 70s, you know, a lot of the Isseis had passed away already. And so I felt, just, this is just, was my opinion, that the money should be used for, a big chunk of it, should be used for education. And I felt that if there are still Isseis alive, then maybe we should have, you know, we should help them out as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, but you felt like education was the most effective form of redress? Wade Kojima: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm, gotcha. And I remember you mentioned-- Wade Kojima: Well I mean as far as-- Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, go ahead. Wade Kojima: As far as JACL, it was one thing, it would be one thing you know to put the money into somewhere where JACL would have some say in the implementation of any kind of education. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I remember when we talked on the phone, you said you might disagree with yourself now, with what was the most important part of redress. Do you know exactly how your mind has changed about what pieces were most important? Wade Kojima: Well, I think for the Niseis, I think it gave them a sense of closure you know to have this happen and to get the monetary compensation. I think for a lot of ' ; em, they, they didn' ; t suffer like their parents did, but there was some psychological effects, I think. I mean the anger, you know within a lot of them. I mean when I tried to talk to them in the ' ; 80s, a lot of people wouldn' ; t even talk about it. You know, they all just wanted to... You know you either had the, both ends of the spectrum. People were angry about it because they missed out on things like college or, you know or they were pulled out of college, or you had the younger end of it that thought that that was kind of fun ' ; cause they kinda got out of school, you know it was more recreational. I mean yes, they still had school, but I think they found it kind of adventuresome at times. Katherine Nagasawa: So you saw people on very different parts of the spectrum? Wade Kojima: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I' ; m curious, you were in your early twenties... Late teens and early twenties when you were most involved with JACL and redress. What do you think activated you, as a Sansei who didn' ; t even experience camp and whose parents didn' ; t directly experience camp, to be involved? Wade Kojima: Well for me, I had never... It was partially trying to find your identity. Because I had, I grew up, and your father might be able to say the same thing, is I grew up trying to be white, trying to fit in you know, where we lived. And so I didn' ; t want to be known, I didn' ; t want to really be Japanese at that point. And so this was when I got involved in JACL, it was about finding out who I was, my ancestry. Katherine Nagasawa: And do you feel like that process happened when you were kind of first getting involved? Did you feel like that sense of community helped you feel less ashamed of your identity, or more willing to claim it in your early twenties? Or how did that process evolve for you? Wade Kojima: I think it just made me more proud, as far as being Japanese, Japanese American, and being able to talk about it. You know because I think in the ' ; 70s you know, there was a lot going on, a lot of immigration. Like I went to University of Minnesota, and at that time when I started, that' ; s when the Vietnamese immigration happened. So you know, the campus had hundreds and hundreds of Vietnamese students on campus back then. So you started learning about other Asian communities as well. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. And just for context for people watching, can you talk a little bit about where you grew up, and what the demographics were of your neighborhood, your high school, and in general, how many people were in the JACL Twin Cities chapter when you entered? Wade Kojima: When I... I grew up in Bloomington, Minnesota, and in my elementary school, I was basically the only minority in the school until I got to fifth grade, and then an Indian family moved in. And then in junior high, basically there was a Chinese family, and maybe... Maybe two Chinese families, and it wasn' ; t until high school that there was actually some other Japanese families that had went to our high school as well. So, I really didn' ; t have a lot of exposure. Now I became friends with a lot of the Japanese, just because I hadn' ; t really had a lot of exposure. This is when I was starting to get involved in JACL. And, and so seeing other Japanese, it was you know, something that I wanted to experience, you know be friends with them. And so that was a new, that was kind of like the beginning. Minnesota is... Back then, it was... Bloomington, and even where your dad grew up in Richfield, it was still predominantly white and Scandinavian, of Scandinavian origin. So there was a lot of, back then in the early ' ; 70s, there was still a lot of name-calling, you know as far as... You know just ' ; cause how we looked, whether you, you know they thought you were Japanese or Chinese, but they had a name for you. So... Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, my dad said there was a lot of bullying, for sure, and one time he went to a grocery store and he saw one other little Asian boy, and he told his, my grandma, he was like, " ; That' ; s me!" ; ' ; Cause he' ; d literally never seen another Asian kid before. So, I can imagine it was isolating. Wade Kojima: Yeah. It was very, you know... You didn' ; t really realize how it, how many Asians really are in the world. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I know after high school, when you moved to Ohio, you got involved in the Cleveland chapter. Can you talk about that transition and the role you took on when you joined the Cleveland chapter? ' ; Cause you were the redress representative for them, right? Wade Kojima: Yes, I was. And so it was a, kind of a natural thing for me, since I was on the Twin Cities JACL board before I moved. I was on it during college and then when I moved, it just seemed natural for me to get involved. And so I got-- Because I knew a lot of the Sanseis on the board in Cleveland, so I got involved, and somehow they asked me to become redress chair, which is very difficult when you don' ; t know the community. And so I had to rely on... My wife is from Cleveland, so her extended family. So I had to reach out to them first and try to talk to them. And, and there were some angry... We had discussions, and a lot of anger came out because of that discussion. Katherine Nagasawa: Anger at asking for redress, anger about the camps? Wade Kojima: Anger about the camps, and anger about talking. I mean it just like brought out emotions out of people that I had never, you know, you would never think, you know that just them talking about what happened in camp made them angry. You know, and those are the people that were a little bit older. There was people that were younger in camp, and some of them had good things to say... Not good things, but fun things that they remembered, like playing baseball and hitting the ball over the fence so the guards would have to get the ball, or they would volunteer to go work in the farm fields, picking vegetables and fruits. So, you heard things like that. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any of the things that people said, the people who were angry or, or resentful? Wade Kojima: Resentful because they were technically American citizens, and basically not being... You know, a violation of their constitutional rights, you know as a U.S. citizen. And my mother always said though, that in times of war, anything can happen. You know ' ; cause of mass hysteria. And I mean we actually witnessed it again with 9/11, to a, not to that degree of the Japanese, but the attitudes were there. Katherine Nagasawa: What was it like for you to have to probe into your in-laws side about something that is so sensitive and, and triggering? Wade Kojima: It was very difficult. It was... I didn' ; t want to get people mad at me, because I wound up eventually marrying into the family. So you know and, but there were people on both sides of the fence. You know, some were angry and some were not so angry. And you know, in the end, I think even the angry ones kind of mellowed out over the years, and were able to talk about it a little bit more. And in fact, the one-- My wife' ; s one uncle who was so vocal about it, he actually joined the JACL board. And so that just amazed me that he could do that after being so angry at, at everybody, at the world about this. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you think was the main thing that pushed him into joining or that changed him? Wade Kojima: I think, well, a couple things. One was he saw what JACL represented and what they were doing on the national level. And then he also, he saw how the Niseis were treating the Sansei, and so he got involved, him and another aunt got involved, of my wife' ; s. You know, they got involved because the Niseis never let the Sanseis run things. A lot of times they would tell them what to do. And so their goals were to try to get the, move the Niseis out and let the Sanseis come in. But I think by that point, when they, when they did that, it was already too late, because I' ; m on the younger side of the Sanseis, the reality of that generation. And, and so a lot of them had already been in JACL and quit because, because the Nisei always told them what to do. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you describe a bit of the breakdown of who was Nisei and who was Sansei in the chapter, and that dynamic that feels kind of, kind of paternalistic between Nisei and Sansei? Because you said it was like 90% Nisei, right? Wade Kojima: It was. And I mean, and what I found out too, even in the Twin Cities, Sanseis didn' ; t want to join JACL because they didn' ; t want to... Because it almost felt like, this is what it felt like to me, okay? And I had never been involved in an organization like this. So for me, it was kind of a learning experience, but basically it was like everybody reported back to your parents. If they didn' ; t like something you said or something you did, they would tell your parents. And so consequently, that' ; s like, I think, a lot of why Sanseis were starting to fall away from the organization. Katherine Nagasawa: Were you able to recruit any people your age to join during that period? Wade Kojima: Oh, yes I, we did. I was able to get a few to come in, but it' ; s more for social aspects of it, not really for leadership. And I really probably never really appreciated the leadership opportunities I had until maybe today, you know, or later in life. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you feel like, you know being part of that organization taught you about leadership? Or what kind of opportunities did it provide? Wade Kojima: Well, the one thing is, you know there' ; s no right way or wrong way to learn from everybody, but you need to jump in with both feet and get, you know commit yourself to something. And I think that' ; s how you learn. I think that' ; s how you learn how to be a good leader, good mentor, and you have to be open to new ideas, which is something the Niseis always had a hard time with. As far-- I mean, I used to have suggestions in Twin Cities and they would kind of tell me, " ; Well, you' ; re still young." ; Katherine Nagasawa: Despite feeling... Despite getting that kind of treatment from the elders, what do you think made you stay and spend so many years trying to work on efforts around redress and community building? Wade Kojima: Well, I think because of, because of the sanseis that I knew on the, in the community, I just stayed on as long as I could. I started probably phasing myself out after six or seven years on the Cleveland chapter, because there was a few leaders, Niseis, on the board that really... They would call me, one would call me and just yell at me and say you know, " ; You' ; re not doing anything that you should be doing." ; And he would just, he would call me at work and he would yell at me, and he' ; d say, " ; Why don' ; t you just resign?" ; And I said, " ; If you want me off the board, then you just kick me off the board." ; I said, " ; I will not quit." ; But he didn' ; t want to go that far. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Intergenerational tensions. Wade Kojima: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I was wondering if you could describe a bit more about your role as redress chair? What do you remember your responsibilities being, and kind of, what did the role entail? Wade Kojima: Well, part of it was trying to raise... I know part of it was to raise funds to gain awareness, you know. And we were, I mean part of it was raising funds for the national organization, because that' ; s, you know we had to come up with... You know, every chapter had to commit so many dollars to that. And so, yes, that was part of it. The other part of it was trying to get people to be on the, like a Speakers Bureau, so if they wanted, and they already had one, but I, you know I had to talk to a few more people to try to get them involved in, in it. And in the end, they had, they had quite a few, I know in the late ' ; 80s and into the ' ; 90s, there was quite a few people that would go out and speak. Katherine Nagasawa: Which names do you remember of people you got to be part of the Speakers Bureau? These were Nisei, right? Probably? Wade Kojima: These were Nisei. Well, one of my supporters back then was Sadie Yamane, and she was, she was a part of the Speakers Bureau for a long time. And then, but she was, she was actually a Sansei. She was an old sansei. She was, I think she was born in camp, if I' ; m not mistaken. And then my one uncle, or my wife' ; s uncle, Harry Takeda, he was, I think he spoke at places. I think Jim Doi was another one. Mary Doi: Can I, can I ask a question? Was this Jimmy Doi, who might' ; ve taught at... Oh no, you' ; re in Cleveland. Wade Kojima: This is Cleveland. Mary Doi: Michigan, sorry, different Doi. Wade Kojima: Yeah, I, I mean know people in Michigan too, but... Mary Doi: Thank you. Wade Kojima: Hank Tanaka was another big one back in the ' ; 80s that did a lot of speaking. Katherine Nagasawa: Mr. Takeda, the uncle, is he the one who was really angry at the beginning and then joined the board? Wade Kojima: Yes. Mm-hmm. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, gotcha. That' ; s amazing that he went from not wanting to speak about it at all or being really upset, and then being able to do public speaking. Wade Kojima: Yes, it was. And even when I lived in Chicago in the ' ; 90s, he would, every time I would see him when we would visit, he would say, " ; When are you moving back to Cleveland? I need you, I need you on the board." ; Him and my aunt, my wife' ; s aunt, Setsu Nakashige. She was another one that would go out and speak as well. But both of them kept wanting me, wanted us to move back to Cleveland so I could get back involved on the board. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, they want to galvanize the Sansei. I was wondering, out of your wife' ; s side of the family or people that you recruited for the Speakers Bureau, do you know how many of them actually testified at the Chicago hearings? ' ; Cause I know Hank Tanaka did, I think, testify. Wade Kojima: Yes, he did. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know, actually. I mean, I knew a few of the people that probably testified, but I don' ; t know if any of the family did. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. ' ; Cause I remember you said you, you didn' ; t make the trip to Chicago for the hearings. Wade Kojima: I did not. Katherine Nagasawa: I was wondering, do you remember the names of any of the other Midwest or Ohio-based redress representatives that you would' ; ve worked with closely for fundraising or for identifying witnesses? Wade Kojima: My memory is not that good. (laughs) Katherine Nagasawa: You remember a lot of names, I feel. Wade Kojima: I do. I mean, people like in Detroit, I remember Jimmy Shimura, he was heavily involved. He was, he was the attorney for Vincent Chin, and that whole thing that went on when Vincent Chin was killed because of the auto work, you know, people looked at him as being Japanese. Katherine Nagasawa: And he was involved in redress as well? You said that Linda Hashimoto' ; s husband knows him or something? Wade Kojima: Yes, that' ; s correct. They went to school together at Michigan State. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Detroit. Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. Katherine Nagasawa: Who else do you remember? Wade Kojima: And Linda' ; s always-- Linda has been involved, but not on redress, but she' ; s always been involved, and she volunteers with every organization in the Twin Cities. But other people I remember is like May Tanaka out of Minneapolis. I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot... Kimi Hara. They were all big leaders in, in the Twin City area. I think-- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any Sansei that were particularly involved around Ohio, or people who might still be alive? Wade Kojima: No, most of the people... Me, well, Bill Sadataki Jr. was involved when I was, but he got off the board before I did, even. And then my wife' ; s cousin was on the board, John Akiba Jr. He was on the board, but then he moved to Minneapolis. Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. Could you talk a bit about the landscape of the Ohio JACL chapters? Did they have-- Were certain ones much larger than others? Did certain ones really focus on specific issues, or... I guess were you in regular contact with them as well? Wade Kojima: I probably was in more contact with them, with all the chapters when I was in, when I was the Midwest district chair for the youth group. But yeah, I didn' ; t-- I didn' ; t know who... I couldn' ; t remember now who was working on redress from the other chapters. Cincinnati, Cincinnati had a fairly large JACL chapter, and then Dayton was a little bit smaller. I' ; m trying to think some of the... In Dayton, that was one of the age discrimination cases there with Borden Milk, I think, I' ; m trying to think of his last name. His first name was Mas, I think. And then I don' ; t know if you know who Pete Hironaka is? He was the cartoonist for the Pacific Citizen, he, he was a cartoonist and so he did all the cartoons in the Pacific Citizen. And so I knew his daughter in, in the youth group, so... Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha. So it seems like Cincinnati and Cleveland were maybe two of the larger chapters? Wade Kojima: Yeah, and then Detroit, was a, it was a fairly large... A lot of family there. Shimuras, the Teshimas were the two big families there, and then you know, there was Milwaukee and also Minneapolis, so... Katherine Nagasawa: If you could characterize the role that you feel like Cleveland played in the redress movement, how would you describe it? Wade Kojima: I don' ; t necessarily know we had a-- I mean, I think we had some role in it. I mean a lot of it was because of our connection with Hank Tanaka because he also was, he sat on the national board before, I think he was JACL board president, national board president at one time. You know so he had a lot of connections. And, but he wasn' ; t... I' ; m not a fan of his. Him and I kind of butted heads a few times, and, and he' ; s one of the, he' ; s one of the reasons a lot of Sanseis got off the board. But I have a lot of respect for, for Hank. Hank did a lot for the organization, and, and I did learn a lot from him. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Do you remember his stance on redress? Like do you remember conversations with him about the redress movement and what he would' ; ve said about that? Wade Kojima: He was, he really wanted to push forward really hard you know, for redress, and you know, his complaint to me was that I, again, because I was new to the community, there was a lot of things I didn' ; t know how to go about, making contacts and everything. And he was pushing me to make a lot of calls. And, and at that time you know, I was pretty young, I was still young, and trying to make cold calls to Niseis is a little difficult. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. So he would' ; ve wanted you to be more, I guess, aggressive-- Wade Kojima: Assertive. Katherine Nagasawa: ...with your outreach, or assertive? Wade Kojima: Yes, yes. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Wade Kojima: I mean I even-- I worked in sales, sales engineering and, and project management my whole career, and I' ; m not, I don' ; t handle that very aggressively. I, I find a way into the door from some other angle, usually. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I feel like there are different approaches too, to outreach, because it seems like you were definitely able to get your wife' ; s side of the family to open up in some way or another, and get very involved eventually. So, I remember you had mentioned when we talked earlier that being involved in JACL kind of maybe was the reason why you took on other opportunities in the swimming world as you know, project manager or leader. Can you talk a bit about how you applied lessons from JACL and redress to other parts of your career or hobbies? Wade Kojima: I think a lot of it... A lot of what I learned is about how to be, let, let things roll off of you. I mean you' ; re always going to have people that are going to be critics of everything you do. And, and I have learned to not take it personally when people are saying things because, I just know from my experience, they' ; re just passionate about what they' ; re talking about. And so I kind of try to not let it affect me as much. You know and I, I was on the board of a Christian school in suburban Chicago. And even when I didn' ; t agree with, with what direction we were going, you know, there were a few board members that agreed with me and they said, " ; We need to, we need to disagree with everybody else." ; And I said, I said, " ; We can disagree with what they say, but if the board passes this," ; I said, " ; we have to get behind everybody. We have to be part of it. We can' ; t be critics after the fact. After they pass a direction, we' ; re going to go." ; And so I, you know I think like that, I learned a lot in JACL, because you have to try to appease a lot of people. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. So probably taught you a lot about working with different points of view and kind of political savvy, maybe. Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. And, and the same thing in swimming. I mean it' ; s... You' ; re going to always have parents yelling at you or coaches yelling at you because of, " ; that wasn' ; t fair" ; . You know, and you have to be able to stand up for your other officials and, and talk very civilly with everybody. And there are times that I' ; m thinking something I' ; d like to say to them, but I can' ; t say it. I have to be more politically correct and, and try to keep everybody calm. And so, and that' ; s how kind of how I rose up in, in the swimming world, is because I, I have a pretty even temperament, and so people recognize that. So I was official... I was diversity chair first, which, that' ; s another area that' ; s really hard to discuss with people. And then, and then I was officials chair and then became the general chair. Katherine Nagasawa: And can you just give a bit of context about what, what organization this is with? Wade Kojima: Okay, so it is Mississippi Swimming. We' ; re part of USA Swimming. It' ; s, Mississippi Swimming is one of 52 local swim councils within USA Swimming, and so we encompass all of Mississippi. But, so basically we direct all the swim clubs that are in Mississippi, and we have to sanction all their meets, and we have to have officials so that they can have their meets. So, every, every swim council has to run their particular area. And then from an officials standpoint, it' ; s more difficult because you have to volunteer, get trained, get experience. And, and so I' ; ve had to do a lot of training in that. Katherine Nagasawa: Gotcha, thanks for giving that background. I wanted to end just with some reflections on the legacies of redress. And I wanted to start with asking you if you remember when the Civil Liberties Act eventually passed in the, in 1988, and do you remember where you were, who you were with, and how you felt when, when it passed? Were you still involved in... Were you in Ohio then or no? Wade Kojima: No, I wasn' ; t in Ohio, but I was actually on projects back in ' ; 88, I was in projects in Detroit area, so I was probably in contact with Jimmy Shimura more than I was with the Cleveland chapter. But, and then I moved in 1990, I took a job in Chicago area. And then I actually had reached out to Bill Yoshino, thinking that maybe I could get back involved again in JACL, but just couldn' ; t... Bill was, at that time, I think he was like... Was he the national director for a while? Katherine Nagasawa: I think at some point, yeah. Wade Kojima: Yeah. And so he was very busy, and so I could never you know, make contact with him, so... And plus-- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember though, even if you weren' ; t super involved with the JACL chapter, did you remember reading about the Civil Liberties Act passing, and how you felt? Wade Kojima: I felt good that it did eventually you know, get passed, and I felt good that you know the niseis were kind of, were very excited about it, you know hearing it from my wife' ; s relatives. So... Katherine Nagasawa: How did that aunt and uncle react, the ones that were more involved? Wade Kojima: I think, well I think in ' ; 88 they probably weren' ; t involved yet. So I think once they saw that getting passed, I think that changed their opinion on a lot of things, you know, what JACL was doing. And so you know it' ; s... That was a long process for a couple of the family members. You know and I, and the reality is they probably, once they got, you know a check from the government, they actually realized that something had, you know that JACL did, you know something that was concrete. It felt concrete to them. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you feel like the apology also played a role for them, like hearing an apology from the president? Wade Kojima: I believe for the older ones, older Niseis, that was a big thing for them. I don' ; t know about the younger ones, if they, you know... I mean when I say younger ones, they were older when that happened, but you know, I don' ; t think they had, they had the same feelings from that particular time period you know going forward. You know and so they might not have had the same, the same feeling at that time. But I do know that they, most people that I talked to, they all felt good about the passing of that. Katherine Nagasawa: How did you feel about the inclusion of the Civil Liberties Public Education Fund? Because I remember you mentioned that education was a very key part of what redress should represent. Wade Kojima: Well, I mean at that point I... All we can do at this point is try to relate experiences that we know about to other people. I mean, I' ; ve had more discussions about relatives being in camp, you know, my wife' ; s family being in camp, with other people, especially since I' ; ve lived in Mississippi, because they had no knowledge about any of this. And so it was, it' ; s been pretty enlightening for a lot of people, you know, that the government actually did something like that. You know and it' ; s, I guess in some ways, you know with what' ; s going on with them, with slaves' ; families trying to get you know, reparations from the government for now, and a lot of it' ; s in the South, but you know, I, I don' ; t see a correlation in the attitudes of all those families like the Japanese. Japanese were never publicly vocal about it, as much as what you see about the way slave families are. They broadcast how the injustice was done you know, hundreds of years ago. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you see a connection at all between the redress movement for Japanese Americans and those calls for reparations today? Wade Kojima: I can understand what they' ; re, what they' ; re thinking, but I think that time has passed on that. I think, you know I think some of, because you' ; re talking generations removed already, it would' ; ve been like their great-great-grandparents that were you know, slaves. And so I think it' ; s part of history, and I think we have to, we have to learn to, at least learn from that as well. I think, I think we forget about the educational piece sometimes. I mean I wish, I wish there was more education, as far as the camps were, you know, that were in, in history books. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah this project actually is funded, not directly from that Civil Liberties Public Education fund, but sort of an outgrowth of it. And so it' ; s from the National Park Service. Wade Kojima: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: And in some ways I see that the funding for this project is somewhat of a legacy of all the redress efforts too. So it' ; s kind of interesting to work on a project about redress that is, the funding is maybe helped, in part, by redress. So I think there are, there are funds that are specifically around teaching Japanese American incarceration history and redress history now. Wade Kojima: I mean I' ; m encouraged by the fact that they, you know like at the World War II Museum in New Orleans, they do have an area about camp in there. You know and, and there, we did go to the museum in Los Angeles as well. I' ; ve been there, but you know, and that has a lot more. And then in Hawaii, they have a plantation camp, which you can learn how the Japanese actually lived on the islands too. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it seems like there are a lot of, a lot more exhibits in recent years dedicated to teaching this history. Wade Kojima: Yes. And I think we should. You know I mean my wife' ; s father' ; s, my wife' ; s father' ; s family was in the camps in Arkansas, and I recently found out that my, one of my dad' ; s sisters' ; husband, his family, his family, he was actually in the same camps in Arkansas. And so I was talking to my cousin, and she was saying that she' ; d like to go visit there, and they have a small museum there and they have monuments, you know? Mary Doi: I' ; m going to interject here. There actually is a pilgrimage to Rohwer and Jerome this year, May 3rd through 6th. Wade Kojima: Okay. Mary Doi: And so I can email you contact information on that. Wade Kojima: That would be great. I' ; ve probably, I' ; ve been meaning to go there for quite a few years, ' ; cause it' ; s only about a two-and-a-half hour drive from my house. Mary Doi: It' ; s well worth it. Katherine Nagasawa: I think, Mary, you have like a really interesting question about what repair looks like. Do you want to, do you want to jump in and kind of ask that question? Something we' ; ve been asking a lot of people that we' ; ve been interviewing. Mary Doi: Yeah, you know, we call it redress and reparations. So in, in that term, ' ; reparations' ; , it implies a kind of repair. So do you feel like repair has happened for Japanese Americans, either those who were in camp or their descendants? Wade Kojima: You know, it can vary between... I mean I, I talk to my wife' ; s mother, who' ; s still alive, and while she won' ; t say anything bad about camp, but I can tell just the, her certain attitudes like at times, she' ; s missed out on things in life over the years, she' ; ll remember things. " ; I didn' ; t get to do that because of, you know because of the war." ; And I think that' ; s, I think for some Niseis, those kind of things have lingered on since childhood, or since you know, when they were young. So yes, we were taught, I mean I think all the Niseis were taught by their parents, that we have to you know, keep face, and we have to move on and do well for our families. And so I think, and that' ; s the way the Sanseis were taught, as well. You know, you can' ; t worry about everybody else. And so I think it' ; s hard to say. I think there' ; s, there were things, I think things did get repaired a little bit, but I think there was not enough talk with some of the generational things that went on, that, I think there was still pent-up anger from some of it. It' ; s hard for me to pinpoint everything, but I get that sense. Mary Doi: You know, I' ; m probably a little bit older than you, and I have a daughter who' ; s very involved in Chicago JACL, and then kind of the, something called Tsuru for Solidarity, which is a peaceful, you know, direct action organization nationwide that really has protested the separation of children from parents when you know, asylum seekers are in the U.S. Wade Kojima: Right. Mary Doi: One of the things that the Yonsei in her sphere talk about is intergenerational trauma. That is trauma that, even though we didn' ; t experience the camp, it' ; s passed down to us through our parents in an unspoken way, and, and from us to our own kids. So from Sansei who didn' ; t experience it, it' ; s transferred somehow to the Yonsei. And you see this in, also, studies of the Holocaust. I think that' ; s where you probably heard the phrase first, that intergenerational trauma about the Holocaust still exists, even like biochemically, it still exists. So this was a whole new idea for me. Does it resonate at all with you? Wade Kojima: I think they may be onto something there. I mean I do see that. I don' ; t necessarily know that, since my parents weren' ; t in camp, I don' ; t know if I you know, really have experienced that handed down, but I get the sense from, from my wife' ; s family, even, that, yes, there is, a lot of that has been passed down. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I had another question about, since you' ; re in the South and you' ; ve dealt with you know, Mississippi Swimming, et cetera. Wade Kojima: Mm-hmm. Mary Doi: When you tell the story about incarceration, is it easy for people to understand how we are Americans? You know, we are not Japanese-Japanese, but we are Japanese American. Do they make that distinction and hold it in their thought process? Wade Kojima: A lot of them do, I mean, but it' ; s really hard sometimes down here. I mean, all right, so it depends on the age group you' ; re talking to. When we first moved down here, I had a realtor that was 70 years old, and she said to me, her comment to me was, " ; Well, you' ; re so much smarter than us." ; And I said, " ; What?" ; And it, and it was you know that Japanese people are smarter than you know Americans. And I said, " ; Well, that' ; s, that' ; s kind of a stereotype." ; Mary Doi: Right, right, right. Wade Kojima: And, and I try to you know, tell her, you know yes, you' ; re going to have, you' ; re going to have some that are, you know? But it' ; s just what they hear, you know. Mary Doi: Right. Wade Kojima: And the problem was, you know, when Nissan and Toyota and Honda moved into this country and established, you know the Japanese, that came over, they were so strict with their kids about going to Saturday class. You know or, like in Chicago, they have, they actually have that full-time Japanese school there. And so it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s about, everything is about getting good grades. It' ; s not about having fun in high school, it' ; s about getting into the best college you can. Mary Doi: Mm-hmm. I think sometimes people talk about the negative effect of positive stereotypes. I think that that' ; s something that exists. Wade Kojima: Yes, I would agree with that. Mary Doi: For example, I' ; m horrible at math and science, you know, and that' ; s certainly one of the stereotypes. Wade Kojima: It is. But you know, and the other stereotype about Asians and Japanese is you' ; re all professional. Doctors, attorneys, you know? We' ; re not all doctors and attorneys. Mary Doi: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: Let' ; s have one last question. It' ; s sort of a hypothetical, but I was thinking about your wife' ; s side of the family, and just how much time it took for people to really open up over the years, and even past the Civil Liberties Act, that it took time for people to process and, yeah, kind of go through that process of repair. How do you feel like your wife' ; s side of the family would' ; ve been, had redress never happened, had this process of talking about camp and receiving compensation and an apology just never happened? Wade Kojima: I wouldn' ; t want to even imagine that. I think you' ; d still have, I think some of the trauma passed down to generations might have been, would' ; ve been worse, I think. I mean there is some trauma, I mean I can see it. But I think it could, it could have been worse. And it' ; s, it' ; s hard to say. But I guess you know, and I, I guess I try to look at things a little more optimistically, and you know, we all have to put aside some of these things and, and move on. I mean if, when you start talking about passing it down to your kids like that, I have really worked hard to try to let my kids make their own decision. You know that they need to understand the consequences you know, but I' ; m not going to tell them what to do. And I think sometimes our, my parents pushed too hard in one direction, and I know my wife' ; s parents push too hard, too, you know, and you just get resentful, and... But you know, when you talk about the... I also hear, I got this from my older son. He said, " ; I don' ; t like the way you raised me," ; is what he said to me. And I said, well I said " ; We don' ; t know everything." ; And I said, " ; I didn' ; t like the way my parents raised me either, but I would never talk about it. I would, you know as far as I felt, I' ; m going to change it with my children. That' ; s how I viewed it." ; And I said, " ; If you didn' ; t like something I did, then you can change it when you have kids." ; So, I mean we have to move on, I think. We can' ; t forget, but we need to move on. Katherine Nagasawa: It reminds me a little bit about what you said about Hank over the phone, where you said you really admired parts of him and you took those to heart, but then you also didn' ; t like certain things about his leadership style, and that you learned from that as well, to not do that when you became a leader. Wade Kojima: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: So, I think it is that process of generation to generation, of honoring the people before you and taking those lessons that feel right, and then making your own, kind of forging your own path, too. Wade Kojima: Right. Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, do you have any last questions before we wrap? Mary Doi: This is a little bit of a, like housekeeping question. Are you still in touch with anybody involved with the JACL in Minneapolis? Wade Kojima: Off and on. I mean I, I go up to Minneapolis once, once a year. I always see Linda Hashimoto, or her married name is van Dooijeweert. But I see her all the time. And I haven' ; t seen, I haven' ; t seen Gloria Kumagai in a while, but she was the board president for a while. Tom Hara. I mean there' ; s a few people that I' ; ve, I' ; ve seen off and on, but I haven' ; t you know, really had a lot of contact with them. Mary Doi: I ask because we' ; re trying to find somebody in that chapter to talk with about-- Katherine Nagasawa: Redress. Mary Doi: ...redress movement in Minneapolis. So if you have any ideas, please pass them on! Wade Kojima: Oh, well, I think I can text you Linda Hashimoto' ; s cell number. Do you have that? Katherine Nagasawa: I don' ; t have that. Mary Doi: Yeah, so Kat will probably call that person. Wade Kojima: Okay. If, if anybody knows anything in Minneapolis, it' ; s Linda. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Wade Kojima: You know she, she volunteers on every single board, she' ; s on the St. Paul Arts Council, the Nagasaki Sister City board. She teaches Japanese dance still. You know so she' ; s involved with the community, so she knows everybody. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. That would be great. And she knows Jimmy Shimura too, which you said he was involved with redress? Wade Kojima: He was. I' ; m trying to think. The only family, the only person up there that I know of is Paul Teshima, and I can' ; t, I don' ; t know if I can get you his number or not, but his family and the Shimuras were real involved, but there aren' ; t anybody that... Oh, Jimmy Shimura still lives up there, so Linda could give you his number. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. Wade Kojima: And I might even have it on my phone. I' ; ll have to look, ' ; cause... Katherine Nagasawa: That would be amazing. Wade Kojima: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: Thank you so much. Yeah, you have a, such an encyclopedic memory about people too, ' ; cause you knew so many of the people we asked you about Ohio, people in Ohio. So, thank you so much. Really helpful. Thank you. Mary Doi: Thank you. Wade Kojima: Yeah, if you have any other, you can always give me a call. I mean I' ; m... But say " ; Hi" ; to your father. I haven' ; t seen him in years. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, well if you' ; re ever in Southern California, let us know. I' ; m sure he' ; d love to catch up. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KojimaWade20230106.xml KojimaWade20230106.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Kojima, Wade (1/6/2023)
Description
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Wade Kojima, a Sansei with roots in Hawaii, describes his involvement in the JACL's redress efforts in Minnesota and Ohio. First via involvement with a Japanese American youth organization, and later as a board member of the Twin Cities JACL Chapter and Redress Chair of the Cleveland JACL Chapter, he shares his observations of the intergenerational dynamics between Nisei and Sansei at the time of the redress movement. He recalls the challenges of being an outsider trying to gain the trust of community members in Cleveland, the support he received from his wife's family, and the names of many individuals who were involved in redress efforts in the Midwest. He also discusses lessons learned about leadership styles and personal reflections on the subject of intergenerational trauma.
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2023-01-06
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Nagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
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Omori, Chizu
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OmoriChizu20221110.xml
Interview Keyword
Civil Rights
NCJAR
Seattle, WA
Berkeley, CA
William Hohri
Supreme Court
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
CWRIC hearings
Tsuru for Solidarity
Interracial solidarity
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/10/2022 Omori, Chizu (11/10/2022) 1:37:05 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Civil Rights NCJAR Seattle, WA Berkeley, CA William Hohri Supreme Court Japanese American Citizens League JACL Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians CWRIC hearings Tsuru for Solidarity Interracial solidarity Omori, Chizu Nagasawa, Katherine video 1:|16(2)|24(12)|32(8)|42(6)|59(9)|67(12)|75(1)|99(13)|109(8)|117(9)|124(12)|132(15)|142(5)|163(5)|191(1)|205(8)|214(2)|237(3)|248(5)|255(8)|268(9)|275(12)|284(12)|306(11)|364(3)|392(11)|408(6)|424(5)|440(2)|468(7)|479(7)|487(4)|495(10)|503(13)|511(13)|558(5)|566(12)|576(6)|587(9)|597(15)|606(16)|621(5)|636(12)|646(6)|688(2)|698(4)|707(7)|715(8)|761(13)|769(1)|779(10)|791(1)|817(12)|827(14)|854(1)|904(16)|918(2)|930(4)|954(5)|962(8)|983(3)|998(14)|1021(1)|1029(6)|1079(2)|1090(3)|1105(8)|1133(5)|1147(3)|1158(4)|1168(12)|1182(8)|1221(8)|1231(13)|1240(14)|1255(6)|1263(9)|1279(5)|1296(7)|1311(6)|1324(3)|1333(4)|1342(10)|1352(6)|1362(4)|1374(7)|1393(1)|1400(1)|1416(6)|1429(5)|1443(6)|1450(9)|1465(7)|1474(3)|1505(4)|1513(10) 0 https://vimeo.com/823010330/ee6a0d2b68 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/823010330?h=ee6a0d2b68" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Chizu Omori, a Nisei born in the San Diego area and incarcerated at Poston during World War II, describes becoming politically active at UC Berkeley in the 1950s, participating in the Civil Rights Movement, and supporting the Japanese American Redress Movement in Seattle in the 1970s and '80s. She remembers helping Issei draft written testimonies and delivering her own oral testimony at the Seattle CWRIC hearings. Chizu also shares her experience serving as a plaintiff for the NCJAR class action lawsuit spearheaded by William Hohri, including memories of her 1987 trip to Washington D.C. to attend the Supreme Court hearing. She concludes by describing her involvement with Tsuru for Solidarity and stressing the importance of interracial solidarity. Katherine Nagasawa: So today is November 10, 2022, and this oral history is being recorded at the Swan' ; s Market Cohousing building at 930 Clay Street in Oakland, California. The interviewer is me, Katherine Nagasawa, and the interviewee is Chizu Omori. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So thanks for being with us here. I was wondering if, could you please start by talking about when you first heard about the concept of redress, and what was your reaction to it? Chizu Omori: Well, let me see. It really goes way back. I was living in Seattle, and I was not particularly active in the JA community at the time, but of course, it' ; s not a big town, and I knew some people and all. And I started hearing about this movement for redress, must have been in the late seventies or something around like that. Yeah. And I think that' ; s when there were serious efforts at getting organized for redress. For one thing, there' ; s a congressman from Washington State. Actually, he wasn' ; t when all this started. His name is Mike Lowry, and my friend Henry Miyatake talked to him when he was a candidate for the seat in the House of Representatives. And Henry asked him, " ; We' ; ll organize and support you, but would you support a bill for redress for us?" ; And Lowry agreed to that. So we campaigned for him, and he won a seat. So Mike is a really great guy, and he introduced the first redress bill, I think it was in 1979, but I mean, a serious bill that was introduced into the Congress at that time. And so the Seattle JACL got very involved, and I know that they were progressive and ahead of the national organization in terms of redress because of people like Henry. Henry Miyatake and Shosuke Sasaki. Oh, boy, my mind. I don' ; t remember too well. But anyway, a bunch of guys, and they were like Boeing engineers. Henry kind of got interested in all this because he said, as a Boeing engineer, that there were a bunch of Asian American engineers at Boeing. And Boeing would have its ups and downs, boom and bust kind of cycles. And when they were in their bust cycle, they would lay off people and downsize somewhat, and-or reassign people to different jobs and all. And one of the superiors said to Henry, and I' ; m just boiling down these stories, but that, " ; Oh, you guys, you' ; ll take anything from us." ; I mean, I don' ; t know if that' ; s what he said essentially, but that was what Henry got out of the conversation. He said, " ; You know, you guys even went into those camps and didn' ; t even raise a fuss about it, so we know that we can, you know, push you guys around at Boeing, and you' ; ll just take it." ; That was what Henry understood this guy saying. And Henry got very angry about that. But then he began to think about it, and he said, " ; We really didn' ; t do much about it, did we?" ; And he started doing research. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: For you personally, had you heard of the concept of redress before? And what was your personal reaction when somebody like Henry told you, " ; Why don' ; t we campaign for this?" ; Chizu Omori: Well, okay. I come from a civil rights background. I went to Berkeley and got very active in the Student Civil Liberties Union. It was a group that actually formed an organization on Berkeley campus. And at that time, the issues were loyalty questionnaires, McCarthyism, and the Big Red Scare. And I think the university at that time was imposing a loyalty questionnaire, or oath, or something like that on their professors. And it was a big deal on Berkeley campus, and some professors resigned rather than signing this loyalty thing. And so that was up in the air, and we were campaigning against McCarthyism. I guess that kind of thing. So that was my kind of political start at Berkeley. And then that was the fifties. And then of course the Civil Rights Movement of the sixties came along, the Vietnam War, the protests against the Vietnam War came along. And Berkeley was a very hopping place in all of that, with feminism and anyway, I remember seeing real Civil Rights icons come to the Bay Area. I saw Stokely Carmichael speak, and James Baldwin, and Fannie Lou Hamer came. And so we all were very active. " ; We all." ; The people that I knew, anyway. So the issues of civil rights was something that I was familiar with from early on. Personally, I did not hang out with other Japanese Americans. They weren' ; t radical enough for me. So I had lots of political friends, but none of them were Asian American at that time. This is the fifties and sixties. So anyway, the question was, " ; Did I know what redress was, or had I heard of it, or anything like that?" ; Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. What was your reaction when the concept of redress for Japanese Americans came up? Because you were obviously very active in fights for other communities' ; civil liberties. Chizu Omori: Other issues. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Other issues, but when it came to your own personal experience and your family' ; s experience, how did you feel about fighting for redress for Japanese Americans? Chizu Omori: Yeah. And this was in Seattle. And so, well, there was a lot of opposition within the Japanese American community to redress. A lot of people, a lot, I mean, I can' ; t speak about numbers or what, but many people felt that this was not a good thing to do. They felt like, " ; Why bring up old issues, old grievances, and all that?" ; You know, " ; Don' ; t rock the boat," ; in other words. " ; Don' ; t make it hard for us again, so that we won' ; t get picked on again." ; Or, " ; We don' ; t ask for money." ; I mean, no Japanese asks for money. We don' ; t do that kind of thing. There was that. And, well, underneath it was all, I guess, a little bit of fear about trying to do something like this. When I heard about it, I said, " ; Yes." ; I mean, automatically, I would accept this. Although I really understood that it' ; s not going anywhere. I don' ; t think we' ; ll get very far, or that we would win or anything. But I just thought, " ; Well, it' ; s really an educational project to teach the American public about this history, and what had happened to us. And just for that reason, it' ; s worth it to work on this cause." ; So anyway, they had a really good group in Seattle. The people who ran that campaign were smart, organized, dedicated. Anyway, I felt like we had a mission, and so we were united in going forward with it. We in Seattle put out a little newsletter. And this is all in the days before computers, or smartphones, or any of this kind of fancy stuff, so it was labor-intensive kinds of activities. But we would keep the community informed on our progress and we would have fundraisers and we' ; d have speakers so that we kept it alive by involving the community in what we were doing. And then we were doing things like lobbying our congresspersons in the Seattle area, or the Northwest, and letter writing. And anyway, it was like learning politics. And also Mike Lowry did introduce a redress bill and I think one of his congressional aides was Ruthann Kurose. Ruthann Kurose comes from a family that was very active politically. And her mother, Aki Kurose, was a school teacher, and she was very vocal about civil rights and stuff like that. And so she became named Teacher of the Year and all sorts of things like that. And right now, there' ; s a school named after her in Seattle because of her activism and as being a civil rights activist, but particularly for redress. So anyway, so her daughter was part of the Lowry, his office. And so there was that, let' ; s see, foot in the door kind of situation where we had real access to our own congressman and we could talk to him about this and see what he was doing and how it was going and all that sort of thing. So we had a little bit of a special situation in Seattle. Also, we had the first Asian American governor in the United States, I think. A Chinese American. I can' ; t even think of this name right now, but Seattle had a nice social milieu in which all of the Asian American groups, the Chinese Americans, and the Filipinos, and maybe Vietnamese who are refugees and all that, they kind of lived in this area called the International District. But anyway, they were all very supportive of each other. So this guy who became governor, I remember he was a lawyer, and he was very supportive of redress. He had came to all of our meetings and did all that kind of thing. So I think that was kind of a special situation, and we felt that we weren' ; t doing it alone. That we had lots of support within the community. Katherine Nagasawa: And also your congressional representatives, too, like access to them. Chizu Omori: Yes. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m curious about some of the sort of civil rights activism, and the education that was happening in the fifties and sixties. One thing you mentioned when we talked on the phone was that there was also more education around Japanese American incarceration that happened in the fifties and sixties, that contributed to the Redress Movement, like Michi Weglyn' ; s book. Chizu Omori: Yeah. That came out in 1976. Katherine Nagasawa: Or Farewell to Manzanar, or I know the first Day of Remembrance was organized in Seattle. Chizu Omori: In Seattle. Yeah. Right. Katherine Nagasawa: So can you talk a little bit about the role that those books and events played in maybe galvanizing support for redress, or even for you personally in learning about camp, the experience? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Yeah. So it was in the seventies, it really got started. Now, I know that they had yellow power movements and such on the campuses down here. I don' ; t know if that was happening at the University of Washington up there because I was not a student, so I didn' ; t know if that was going on. But I think that actually Black civil rights did give us the, what should I say? Made us think about Asian American civil rights. And I think people would say to me, " ; What about you guys? You guys were in the camps." ; And I said, " ; Yes, we were." ; That kind of thing. So I was prodded by other civil rights activists about our own situation, our own history. Yeah. So I think there was a raising of consciousness, you might say, by all peoples of color because of the Black civil rights movement. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember reading Years of Infamy, or going to the Day of Remembrance, like early Day of Remembrance or pilgrimages? Chizu Omori: I did not go to that one, although I knew the people who were involved, Frank Chin and Frank Abe and those people. And how come I didn' ; t go? Well, they were saying all the people who had been put into that assembly center in Puyallup Fairgrounds, that they were going to go. And I don' ; t know. I may have thought, " ; Well, I wasn' ; t one of those persons," ; or something. I don' ; t know what I was thinking. Anyway, but I knew Frank Chin and Frank Abe and Karen Seriguchi and people like that. I knew them. So of course, I joined in after that. But I know that there was a huge amount of interest in it, that thousands of people came out to that, you know. And so I think it impressed on the leadership that this is not just a small group of rabble-rousers or something, but that within the community, that there was a feeling of grievance and awareness of that camp experience when so many people showed up. And so that was a catalyst for more organizing. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you also tell me the story about how you got involved with NCJAR and Bill Hohri? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: From the very start? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Well, because I was active in the Seattle group, word came out that there was this lawsuit and they wanted representation from all the various areas of, well, of the United States, but particularly areas where the people who were incarcerated came from. And the Pacific Northwest was just one of the major areas. So at one of the meetings, Cherry Kinoshita, who was a terrific chairperson of our redress group, said that they' ; re asking for named plaintiffs, that it doesn' ; t really mean that you have to be there for everything or something. Named plaintiffs is just a symbolic thing that our area is being represented by some people. So nobody wanted to volunteer for that. We didn' ; t know what it was. So anyway, so they just sort of chose people. They said, " ; You be one of them," ; sort of like, you know? And so, yeah, Cherry asked me, " ; You be one of them." ; And I said, " ; Well, what does it mean? What do I have to do?" ; And she says, " ; Nothing, it' ; s just your name." ; So about three of us, our names are put on the list of the named plaintiffs on the class action suit of that. And I have to tell you that I was pretty ignorant about what it was. And so I got to learn more because that was a very well-organized group and they had a monthly newsletter and they kept us very informed on what was happening. And I know they were trying to raise funds and all that. So then William Hohri came to talk to us several times over a period of years there. And so I don' ; t know how it happened, but William Hohri and I became kind of like pen pals. I don' ; t know why, but we started corresponding. And so that kept me very involved in the lawsuit. So let' ; s see. That must have been around 1980 or something when they were putting the actual case together. Katherine Nagasawa: What was your first impression of William Hohri? How would you describe him as a leader of NCJAR, and what do you think made him a good leader for that movement, and the lawsuit? Chizu Omori: Very smart. First-rate intellect and he wrote well. The newsletter was really interesting to read because everything was written so well and all. And it was very serious in tone, like even though it was quite a daring kind of activity but they learned how to do it, you know? I mean, that meant, " ; What does it take to start a lawsuit of this type?" ; And everything. And so they got lawyers involved to do. Well, they engaged a law firm and so a very fine law firm, I think, who were, let' ; s just say, veterans of Civil Rights litigation and stuff like that, so that they could present a case that was solidly based on rules and laws and all that. So it felt like, " ; Yeah, this is serious. It isn' ; t frivolous, or too stupid," ; or something like that, that it would be taken seriously. So yeah. And I think William had a lot to do with that because he was a very serious person and he really kind of dedicated his life, devoted a number of years of his life to doing this. And through him, I met Aiko Yoshinaga-Herzig [Herzig-Yoshinaga], and her husband Jack Herzig and lawyer Peter Irons. Other what I consider real movers and shakers in the Redress Movement, the general Redress Movement. And for that, I' ; m eternally grateful, because those people were wonderful people and also very dedicated. So I was kind of involved in the legislative redress action, what was going on with the Seattle JACL and all that. I would never join the JACL, but I was one of them doing redress work. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Chizu Omori: Anyway, yeah. My family hated the JACL, so I really couldn' ; t. Katherine Nagasawa: What did your parents think about redress? Did they align with one of the groups like NCJAR or NCRR? What did they think about your work in redress, too? Chizu Omori: I don' ; t know if they even knew about it. I lived in Seattle. They lived in Oceanside near San Diego and I really didn' ; t see them very much. And I think that if I had been closer to my dad and able to talk with him over time, that he would have been very supportive of all this, I think. But we were not close in the sense that we exchanged a lot of letters or phone calls or anything like that. No. They knew that I was politically active, and so, from way back, so it' ; s like, I don' ; t suppose they were terribly interested in what I was doing. I don' ; t know. But that' ; s what I did. And anyway- Katherine Nagasawa: It was a little separate from family? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Yeah. Rather separate. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. I just want to check about silencing phones. I think I heard a little ding. I just want to make sure it' ; s not my phone. Chizu Omori: Oh. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you know if your phone has notifications on, or- Chizu Omori: Well- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you mind if I turn off the- Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Thanks. Chizu Omori: I think I' ; ll just turn mine off too, because it' ; s very loud. I have it ringing very loud, because- Katherine Nagasawa: Oh yeah? Chizu Omori: ... so that I can hear it from any room. Katherine Nagasawa: That makes sense. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: That makes sense. Chizu Omori: Yeah. I' ; m getting hard of hearing. Katherine Nagasawa: The other question I had was whether you knew the other plaintiffs because they were plaintiffs from all over the country, right? There are several in the Midwest. So can you talk about the relationship with the other plaintiffs and did you ever meet with them or did you have to do any work for the lawsuit? Or did the law firm and Bill Hohri do most of that work? Chizu Omori: We literally were just symbolic names. I mean, I don' ; t think they asked us to do anything particularly specific. Now I happen to know one of the other plaintiffs from Southern California. No, no, Northern California. Yeah, that' ; s right. Northern California. His name is Harry Ueno. And Harry Ueno was somebody that we, that my sister and I interviewed for our film, Rabbit in the Moon. And so we knew him and he was one of the named plaintiffs. Katherine Nagasawa: Did you ever meet the other plaintiffs in DC? I' ; m trying to think, Nelson Kitsuse or some of the other Chicago ones? Chizu Omori: No, we did when the suit was going to be heard before the Supreme Court. So I' ; m assuming that most of the named plaintiffs were at that. I' ; m not sure because I didn' ; t know the other named plaintiffs, but they were all invited to be there. So I imagine, yeah. In fact, that attracted, for instance, Gordon Hirabayashi came and, well I knew Gordon anyway because he' ; s a Pacific Northwest person. But anyway, I sat next to him in front of the Supreme Court and Fred Korematsu and his wife were there. So Mike Masaoka from the JACL was there. And I' ; m sure there were other people that I didn' ; t know or recognize but they were there to hear the case. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Can you tell me about that day or walk me through the entire trip. Had you planned to go from the beginning when Bill Hohri invited you, and how did you decide how long were you there for? Chizu Omori: Well, now I was notified that there was going to be this thing and our chapter, I think our redress chapter covered my plane ticket, I think, round trip plane ticket and NCJAR, they paid for the hotel accommodations. So it really didn' ; t cost me anything to go. And I think we were just there for maybe three days or so, something like that. Yeah. But we all got together for a big dinner, I remember. And there was a birthday party for Harry Ueno ' ; cause it was his birthday. And Hannah Holmes, who was a deaf person, she was one of the named plaintiffs, and she was there. I think she gave the birthday party, yeah. And Michi Weglyn and, Michi and Walter Weglyn, were there. And I had met Michi before, so I knew her. My hotel room, I was going to share it with Mine Okubo, the artist, she was signed up for, and she was there, but she never showed up to be my roommate. So she must have gotten, she probably had friends or something that she stayed with. But anyway, she was there to see the trial. Katherine Nagasawa: Wow. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: How exciting to be with all of those - Chizu Omori: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Incredible array of people. Chizu Omori: Named civil rights activists and fighters for redress and all that. Yeah. So it was a very, it' ; s a high point in my life, so very special. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you walk me through the day of the hearing? What do you remember from that? Chizu Omori: I remember that they have very strict rules in any of this sort of thing. So we had to wait our turn because other cases were being heard and we were given numbers and we went in and sat down inside. And Gordon was sitting next to me and Gordon kept nodding off. And the proctors, there' ; s people who are walking around the room just to keep an eye on everybody who' ; s seated. And they would come by and gently prod him to wake him up. And it' ; s just little things like that you remember. And I remember that there were a couple of rows of chairs in front and everybody else was seated. And then Mike Masaoka with a whole entourage of people came in and sat in on the chairs on the front. And I thought, " ; He has clout." ; Somehow, he got special seating right up front and all that. And anyway, I did not know Mike Masaoka, but you get vibes from that kind of situation. I thought, " ; He must be considered a big wig to be given special consideration like that." ; So it gave me a little insight into what his role had been as a lobbyist in Washington DC. And then when the actual justices walked in, they' ; re up on a, as I recall, it' ; s maybe not right, but in my mind it was sort of raised, you know, sort of? So when they walked in, they were a little higher than us. And they had these black robes on and they had these high back chairs and it' ; s very solemn and very serious seeming. And then very dramatically, Antonin Scalia stood up and walked off the stage or just walked out. And like, " ; What was that all about?" ; Apparently Scalia had recused himself because he had heard the case in a lower court and had ruled against our case. So he did not participate in hearing our case. But certainly Thurgood Marshall was there and I think Sandra Day O' ; Connor was there, and all of the other justices at that time were there. Anyway, so the government guy -- what was his name? Anyway, representing the government. He came in very formal clothes. Morning coat it' ; s called, I guess. But it' ; s to give the whole thing a more -- what should I say? Well, more drama really, but formality that you have to dress a certain way to represent the government in front of the Supreme Court or whatever. And he starts giving the government' ; s side of it, and suddenly he' ; s interrupted by Thurgood Marshall. And Thurgood Marshall says, " ; What' ; s the difference between locking all these people up and murder?" ; And the lawyer is taken aback and he stammers, " ; What do you mean? I mean, murder is killing," ; he said. But Marshall just persisted. And he said, " ; What' ; s the difference? You know, take everything away from these people, their homes and everything else, and lock them up. Well, that' ; s just as good as killing them." ; he says. Something like that. And it' ; s kinda like, suddenly, for me, it was a real shock to hear this exchange because it seemed almost surreal. Like what is he saying? But then later our lawyer Ellen Carson, Ellen Godby Carson, said that Aiko turned to her, and she said to Ellen, " ; Boy, Thurgood Marshall, he gets it," ; she said. Anyway, I heard that afterwards. But anyway, I' ; ve been rereading William Hohri' ; s book on redress called Repairing America and he has that whole exchange there in the book. And I read it years ago and I didn' ; t remember that he had included that. So I went back and read it and I said, " ; Yes, I really heard this and it really did happen." ; And just how startling it was that Thurgood Marshall kind of recognized the seriousness of what had been done to us. Katherine Nagasawa: I had interviewed somebody in Chicago who was part of NCJAR and she was there that day. I don' ; t know if you remember her, Mary Samson, her maiden name was Omori as well. Mary Omori. Chizu Omori: Yeah, I know there' ; s several Omoris. Katherine Nagasawa: There' ; s a lot of Omoris. Chizu Omori: But we' ; re not even related, I don' ; t think. Katherine Nagasawa: She mentioned the Thurgood Marshall moment as well as standing out to her. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m so sorry. But there was some noise from a cart when you were starting your story. Do you mind retelling that story one more time, just because I think the audio got messed up. By just starting with, there was the person from the government who was giving his spiel - Chizu Omori: Fried. I think Fried, I think that was his name. Katherine Nagasawa: But then Thurgood Marshall interrupted. Could you start by re-explaining it? Chizu Omori: Yeah, yeah. Well, it opened with this, I think he was called Solicitor General, I don' ; t know. But he was representing the government and he was wearing what was later described as a morning coat, but some kind of very formal dress, which I guess to show the seriousness and the kind of rules and formality of appearing before the Supreme Court, I guess. And he started talking about it. And anyway, I don' ; t remember what he said, but I do remember that Thurgood Marshall interrupted him and said something like, " ; Well, what' ; s the difference between." ; He used a word, but he meant rounding all these people up and locking them up. " ; What' ; s the difference between that and murder?" ; And this really startled this government attorney, and he started stammering and he says, " ; Well, murder is a lot worse. It' ; s killing." ; But Marshall kept pressing him and saying, " ; Yeah, but if you take a person and you make him lose everything and all that, and then you stick him in a camp like that, how different is that from murder?" ; And again, the government official really had no answer for these particular questions, but he said, " ; But we really didn' ; t kill anybody." ; Well, it turns out, of course they did kill some people. We know that. But anyway, he said they were allowed to leave the camps at the end of the war and all. So that exchange kept going on, and I don' ; t really remember every detail of it, but Thurgood Marshall was really kind of sticking it to him right there in front of everybody in a real way. And Ellen Carson, who was our lawyer, she told me later that Aiko Herzig prodded her and said, " ; Boy, Thurgood Marshall, he really gets it." ; So anyway, that was memorable because Marshall was sticking up for us in a very direct way. Katherine Nagasawa: I remember we talked about this over the phone, but I wanted to ask you again, did you ever feel like the lawsuit had a shot? Or I guess, what was your reaction when it was declared moot at the end? Chizu Omori: Well, did it have a shot? I mean, it was a very well constructed case. I felt like, how are they going to refute what we' ; re asking for? That kind of thing. How are they going to do that? So I was curious about what' ; s going to happen here, how is this going to develop? But I' ; m sure that even the Supreme Court, and we sure know that now, that politics also plays a role in what the Supreme Court does. And I imagine there must have been some alarm at some level that, " ; Hey, if they win their case, do you know how much it' ; s going to cost us?" ; I don' ; t know, something -- billions of dollars. And what would it take to reverse, I mean, to refute what we' ; re presenting? Because it was very clearly laid out all of these violations of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and all those things, you know? So even as an academic exercise, it' ; s sort of like, " ; How? What are they going to do? How are they going to handle this?" ; Well, they chose not to. And when it was declared moot, I asked Peter Irons, " ; What does that mean?" ; And he gave me some kind of legal answer, which I don' ; t remember. But anyway, they declined to carry the case any further, is what moot said to me. It was over. So it was a disappointment, but the scuttlebutt later was that what it did is it prodded the action in Congress, passing the legislation.That was going to be a lot less costly for the government then had we won our lawsuit. Katherine Nagasawa: It seems like all the different approaches, including the Coram Nobis cases, also contributed in their own way. Chizu Omori: Yes. Yeah, I think for redress, there were three major actions going on -- NCJAR, Coram Nobis, and then pushing for legislation through Congress. And we really kind of won in the sense that, Coram Nobis, they did manage to vacate all those cases. And then we got up to the Supreme Court, can' ; t go any farther than that! And then they did pass the legislation in Congress. So it was kind of a lucky confluence of many currents going on here that resulted in redress. Katherine Nagasawa: And that you were involved in several of those currents too, you know, that you were also lobbying for the redress legislation in addition to being a plaintiff. Chizu Omori: Yeah, and then I knew a lot of the people involved in the Coram nobis cases, and there were the same people, Aiko and Jack and Peter Irons and all those lawyers, you know. I knew some of them up there in Seattle. And so we were really one really large movement, I mean, moving towards a certain goal. And that' ; s what it took. It took a lot of organizing. It took a lot of, well, I guess they had to raise a lot of money for all these different things, although so much of it was done pro bono and all that. But anyway, the community rallied to support all the movements. Yeah. And that was the, what should I say? Moment of truth for the community. I think that most people have probably thought we don' ; t mean anything, or what happened to us, it doesn' ; t, nobody else cares or anything like that. But I think that by organizing and doing it in a legal sort of way, we didn' ; t do marching in the streets. And I know that in Canada, I think they did. I think I read that they did some of that kind of stuff, protests and all that. But we didn' ; t. But we prevailed. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s incredible. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, one thing I' ; ve been thinking about and chewing on is just the differences in the approach between the JACL, the legislative approach and then the judicial approach, and how with the lawsuit, Japanese Americans were more masters of their own destiny because you are the one suing the government and you' ; re not as passive as - Chizu Omori: As a class, meaning all of us. Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, you are. And you' ; re not as dependent on votes from senators or representatives. Chizu Omori: All that horse trading, and you know? Katherine Nagasawa: And that you' ; re really helping inform what you' ; re complaining about with the lawsuit. Chizu Omori: Yes, yes. Katherine Nagasawa: So I guess, what' ; s your reaction to that, the idea of maybe perhaps a more proactive versus passive approach? How would you characterize maybe those different tactics and how you feel about each one of them? Chizu Omori: Well, they' ; re different, of course. And I can' ; t say that one was so much superior to the other. Spelling out the violations of the laws and the constitution was very important because it was done through the courts and all, and the law of the land sort of thing. And so it spelled out why we were demanding redress or consideration for the wrongs that were done to us in a way that confronted the courts. Well, and ultimately Congress really. Whereas with the redress, the legislative way that they did it, I mean, there was a lot of contention over the idea of commissions and the hearings, and a lot of people thought, " ; What' ; s the point? Of course a wrong was done to us. We don' ; t have to tell them. I mean, show all of our scars and everything else." ; They didn' ; t think that was something that we needed to do. But on the other hand, the way it worked out is because they had the hearings in all these different cities and places, and they allowed ordinary people who weren' ; t necessarily civil rights activists or legal scholars or whatever, to talk about what happened to them and also the grievances or whatever that they might want to talk about. And the hearings were like five minutes each, at least that was the rule. It was violated a lot, of course. But anyway, but they also allowed people to give written testimony that you could write something and turn that in without having to just have a five minute small, very short time to talk about years of grievance. And I testified at the Seattle hearings. Anyway, but what it did for the community is they heard these stories for the first time, especially the younger people. They didn' ; t know a lot of what their parents had gone through because parents wouldn' ; t talk about it. For a whole lot of reasons, they didn' ; t never heard these stories. And so our community was hugely educated by the commission hearings. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, and then it was also maybe an opportunity for Japanese Americans to tell their own story as opposed to it being - Chizu Omori: To express themselves. Katherine Nagasawa: Being told for them. Yeah. Chizu Omori: Yes. Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I do want to ask you a bit about the hearings, your experience testifying and being there. I think one of the things first I wanted to ask is you helped a lot of Issei write their testimonies. Chizu Omori: Well, not a lot. Katherine Nagasawa: Or a few? Chizu Omori: Yeah, I did some of that. Katherine Nagasawa: Can you talk about what that experience was like? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Well, for me again, I mean, I was hearing stories that I had never heard before, and I became very aware of how much the Issei had lost during that whole incarceration period. And then they were kind of silenced because the JACL really did not seem to care very much about the Issei generation. Their whole thrust was for Nisei to show how American they were, how loyal they were, and how worthy they were to be citizens and to stay in the country. And at that point, no Issei could become a citizen anyway, so their main thrust was for citizens. And so the Issei were kind of completely left out of everything until 1952 or something like that when they allowed them to become naturalized citizens. But hearing these stories was like, when I went in, I was 12 years old, so what did I know about what had happened to everybody? But hearing the Issei stories made me realize that some people, they lost their lives, in some way. It really was like a murder, in that they could not ever be citizens, and so they had no power in this country. They had lost all they had worked for their whole lives. Well, not everybody, but most people did. And they were really too old to start over. And so they became dependent on their children, or maybe government handouts, or I don' ; t know how they got by, or out of kindness of other relatives, or who knows, you know what I mean? But the Issei were just put in a very difficult situation. And I think a lot of them died just having not even close to recovering what they had had before the war. And that their voices were kind of silenced, because they didn' ; t speak English. Whatever documents and stuff they left was in Japanese, so we don' ; t even have access to their diaries or their stories or whatever. And so they' ; re the ones, that one generation just kind of, yeah, they were kind of, I won' ; t say murdered, but their lives were taken away. And of course, some of them were very bitter and went to Japan and all of that kind of thing, too. Katherine Nagasawa: And so for the process of helping them write their testimony, were you interviewing them and helping them transcribe? Chizu Omori: Yeah, I' ; d go to their homes and, you know, when I think back on it, my Japanese was not very good at the time, but I guess I managed, trying to figure out what they were telling me and with their broken English, they were telling me. But anyway, just kind of pieced together what they wanted to say. Katherine Nagasawa: And those were just submitted as written testimony? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay. And then can you tell me about your process of delivering an oral testimony at the Seattle hearings? What was your process like of developing that? Chizu Omori: Oh, what was I going to say in five minutes? So yeah, I had to think real hard about what am I going to say? Anyway, I thought, well, I want to say something about my family, but I also just really wanted to say how... I have to go back and read that. I think it was pretty good, but I don' ; t remember exactly what I said. Something like, " ; All three governments, the checks and balances that are so highly touted, all failed us." ; The legislative, and the judicial, and the whatever, the president' ; s -- I forget the three branches. Anyway, all of them failed us, in that they really tore the laws of the land to pieces in what they did to us. And that, in my case, my family decided to leave this country and my father was an Issei, he was born in Japan, and go back to Japan because he felt there was nothing for him to stay in this country. And I didn' ; t want to go to Japan. I had never been there. And so I fought with my parents about their decision to go to Japan. Because I was a minor, so I didn' ; t have a say in that. So I was pretty angry, because I didn' ; t -- that' ; s where I understood that, well, I' ; m not Japanese. I' ; m really American. And I also felt that I didn' ; t want to go to a country that was so patriarchal, where the men were such, you know. The way they ruled their families, and I' ; d seen a lot of that. And I said, " ; No, thank you. I don' ; t want to have to conform in that way." ; So that was my reasoning, and so I wrote some of that into my testimony. Katherine Nagasawa: How did your parents end up in Oceanside then? Chizu Omori: Back? You mean after the war? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, later on. Chizu Omori: I don' ; t know, they just went back to where they were before. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, I see. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. Chizu Omori: Not to a house or anything like that, that was all gone. The land that we had been farming on became Camp Pendleton, the marine base down there. So, I don' ; t know, my father wanted to become a -- I guess he wanted to have his own business, so he wanted to farm again, so that' ; s why he went back. Katherine Nagasawa: So, he didn' ; t go to Japan actually then? Chizu Omori: No, the family did not go to Japan. Katherine Nagasawa: I see. But he had wanted to, and then... Chizu Omori: He signed up for it. Katherine Nagasawa: He signed up to go back, I see. Chizu Omori: Yeah, we should have gone to Tule Lake. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh. Chizu Omori: But we never did. And I never talked to him about it, my father, never talked to him. " ; How come we didn' ; t go?" ; Maybe he didn' ; t know, either. I don' ; t know. But anyway, I suspect that Tule Lake just got too full, and they just said, " ; Don' ; t send any more people." ; So they said, " ; Okay, that' ; s it, no more to Tule Lake." ; So the rest of us got lucky, and I know of other people who were No-Nos and all that, and they didn' ; t go to Tule Lake. So there was some kind of arbitrary decision made. The whole program -- I' ; ve studied all this stuff, and it' ; s sort of like the right hand didn' ; t know what the left hand was doing, practically. Very, you know, ad hoc. I think they would just make policy because they had to or something like that. But nothing was terribly planned out. So, that' ; s why Tule Lake became such a mess. They didn' ; t know what to do with those people. As far as they were concerned they were all subversives. Katherine Nagasawa: So when you were delivering your testimony, what was it like delivering it to the commissioners and then to that big audience of community members? What do you remember about that? Chizu Omori: Well, five minutes, and there were lots and lots of people giving testimony. So my five minutes, I don' ; t think anybody paid attention to it or heard it or anything. And it was clear to me that a lot of the commissioners were not paying attention anyway. I think for them, they just had to sit there and hear testimony after testimony. So they' ; d already been to several cities and stuff, so I' ; m sure just was very routine stuff at that point. Maybe William Marutani, being the only Japanese American on the commission, I think he was paying attention some. But actually there were absences. Not all the chairs were filled or anything. So, it really impressed upon me that bureaucracy is bureaucracy. They chose these people to be commissioners, probably not necessarily on how much they knew about all of this or what, but for various political reasons, they chose these people. And so they chose to be there, but that didn' ; t mean that they cared about what was going on. I don' ; t know. Katherine Nagasawa: Even if the commissioners weren' ; t paying as much attention, what about the audience? What was it... Chizu Omori: The audience was paying lots of attention. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you remember of who was in the audience and what their reaction was? Chizu Omori: Oh, community members were there, yeah. I think they actually scheduled some, did they, in Seattle? I think I read some place that they had evening meetings at some places to allow people who are working to be able to come to the commission meetings. Anyway, they had to have extra rooms with the testimony being piped into it, you know, because so many people came. And the press really did show up and cover all of the hearings. So I think there was kind of an excitement in the community. That maybe a lot of them came out of curiosity or because somebody they knew was going to be there or who knows what. Anyway, a lot of people came, and I think that they heard these stories for the first time, too. I imagine there were probably kids who heard their parents say things they' ; d never heard before. So it was very -- I think the communities realized that it was important and that they were being heard for the first time or whatever, and so they were paying attention to what was going on. Katherine Nagasawa: I remember hearing at the Chicago hearings that people were crying. Chizu Omori: Oh, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: And it was really emotional. Do you remember any sort of emotional reactions? Chizu Omori: Not so much in Seattle. In Seattle, our group, Cherry Kinoshita and those folks, we organized a series of mock hearings and we had people practice what they were going to say. And we led a very orderly series of testimonials and things. And so I don' ; t recall too many tears or anything. I understand that Los Angeles was a real noisy ruckus almost and people crying and people. Oh, and the white woman, Baker, whatever her name was. Katherine Nagasawa: Lillian Baker. Chizu Omori: Lillian Baker being thrown out and all that. Well, we were spared the drama of Lillian Baker. But we also had Aleuts show up to testify in our hearings. So we heard that for the first time. Yeah, I was sent out to try to find some people because a lot of Native Americans from Alaska, they come down to Seattle. There' ; s a lot of people going back and forth. So I tried to see if we could find some people to testify. We did. I just remember going to bars along the waterfront in all kinds of places like that, trying to see if I can find some people who knew about it or who would be interested in testifying. So that was kind of fun. I did meet some Native Americans and we had people testify. Katherine Nagasawa: So you were doing that grassroots outreach then, to try to get Aleut people to testify? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Wow, that' ; s incredible. What do you remember of, was it hard to get them on board? Or what were the conversations like? Chizu Omori: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was hard, because they... Actually, Cherry Kinoshita, at the very beginning, when we started organizing for all this, she wanted to be very inclusive. And we reached out to Aleut groups, we reached out to anybody who wanted to be interested and show up. So church groups and all kinds of groups. And we started out with lots of interest, but over the years, people drifted away. So it always comes down to a core of people who are willing to stick with it. But I think in that way, though, we informed, through all this outreach, about redress, about what we were trying to do and everybody can participate, and come and join our meetings. And I don' ; t know, we must have met once a month or something. But anyway, we stuck it out for years. And then I think at that point, I think the International Examiner' ; s a little newspaper that was kind of started. And so we would inform the community and the public just generally about what was happening. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s interesting because I feel like something that stands out to me about the Chicago hearings was they included Japanese Latin Americans. Chizu Omori: Oh, yeah- Katherine Nagasawa: So there was... Chizu Omori: ... we didn' ; t have any, I don' ; t recall. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. Chizu Omori: I don' ; t remember knowing about that, even, at that time. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. But it' ; s interesting how each hearing highlighted a different community that might not have had a platform. So that' ; s really cool what you did to include the Aleuts. Chizu Omori: I know that in the San Francisco Bay Area, there are Japanese Peruvian descendants, and actually survivors. I know a few in East Bay. Grace... Katherine Nagasawa: Grace Shimizu, right? Chizu Omori: Yeah, Grace Shimizu and other people, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I have some final questions around the legacies of redress and your reflections on the movement. How did you feel when the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 was actually passed? Do you remember where you were and how you reacted? Chizu Omori: At the particular moment? I don' ; t remember, but I must have been really startled and [laughs]. Oh, I know. No, no. There was a convention of JACL going on in Seattle when Reagan signed the bill. So some people from the convention jumped on an airplane and were there in time to witness the signing. So I guess that was the moment when he signed it. Yeah, oh yeah. Well, that was pretty exciting, yeah. And then they promptly got back on the plane, back to the convention, and talked about it. And I was there, like I say, I never did join the JACL, but I wanted to go see Mike Masaoka in action because I had never had anything to do with him. But it' ; s sort of like, what is he like in person? And so that' ; s why I was hanging around on the fringes of that convention because it was in Seattle and I was living there. But anyway, so that' ; s why I was there when I heard that the bill was signed and all that, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: So you were with the big... The whole community had come to Seattle, basically, a lot of leaders, right when that was passed. Chizu Omori: Yeah. And so of course, the community, our community celebrated and we had a big party and everything. And of course, Mike Lowry was still around, so we honored him for being the first to support us. Katherine Nagasawa: Were your parents alive to receive redress? Chizu Omori: Yes. Well, my father. My mother died very early. She died in 1947, so she wasn' ; t around. But yeah, my father did get redress and his second wife, too. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember how your father reacted when he received the apology letter and when he got the check? Chizu Omori: Well, I wasn' ; t around to witness it or anything, but they were quietly satisfied, I could tell. They wouldn' ; t say very much, but they were pleased. They were pleased. And they knew that I had been working on it for a long time. So I think they felt like that my work was vindicated because it came through with something. Katherine Nagasawa: And how about for you and your sibling, for you and your sister? You personally also received the check and the letter. What was it like for you to go through that experience, as a survivor? Chizu Omori: Well, I just felt like $20,000 was a token amount, because after all, being part of the lawsuit and knowing how much that would' ; ve paid off, this just seemed like peanuts or something. But I felt, " ; Okay, it' ; s the symbolic meaning of this." ; That we had done something that had never been done before, achieved suing -- well, we weren' ; t suing, the lawsuit was, but in Congress, at least they recognized that they had done this thing, and at least this will put a brake on anything that Congress might decide to do in the future. That, " ; Well, maybe we shouldn' ; t do this, because it might cost us in the long run," ; sort of thing. As a kind of a warning to others. But of course, one of the reasons why many in Congress did not want to support redress is that it would be opening the door to allow all the other wronged peoples to sue. So it didn' ; t happen immediately, but John Conyers introduced HR40 or something like it, I think, a month after our redress had passed. So that was in 1988, and then nothing happened to that until fairly recently. I think he kept introducing it over and over. But yeah, I' ; d like to see more action on reparations for Black citizens, yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: What do you feel like were the limitations of the Civil Liberties Act in true repair or true healing? You mentioned monetarily, it was a drop in the bucket. Where else do you feel like the redress movement fell short of what would' ; ve been a more full healing process and repair process? Chizu Omori: What more? Well. You know, part of the legislation was for educational purposes, and they allocated, they named $50 million for educational purposes. And I haven' ; t followed all this very closely, but they actually appropriated only $5 million of that $50 million, which became that Civil Liberties Educational Program that they had. And I got a letter of congratulations from Senator Patty Murray in Washington State, because we won redress. And I answered her and I said, " ; Thank you for noticing this," ; or whatever. " ; Thanks for your letter." ; And I said, " ; But I do wish that you people make sure that that $45 million for education is appropriated because that' ; s what you said you would do, $50 million." ; Of course, I didn' ; t get a response from her over that. But anyway, I thought I' ; d prod them while I could. But later on, because they have these confinement sites grants and all that, I think that' ; s all part of the fact that they said that they would have an educational fund. And so I guess that' ; s all part of it. They don' ; t say so, I don' ; t know, but maybe they do, I don' ; t know. But anyway. Katherine Nagasawa: I think it' ; s still a legacy of redress. Chizu Omori: Yes. Katherine Nagasawa: And this project is actually funded through the JACS grant. Chizu Omori: There you go. Katherine Nagasawa: So it' ; s kind of funny that a project around redress is, in part, funded through the movement itself. But its interesting legacy is the educational projects and community education work. Chizu Omori: Yeah. We got money from that grant. I mean that we got grants, my sister got a grant to finish our film, Rabbit, and I got a grant to write a biography of somebody who was... She wanted it done, but after second thoughts, she decided she didn' ; t want it done, and she harassed us something awful. So I had to give it up. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh no, I' ; m sorry about that. I did want to talk a little bit about your film, Rabbit in the Moon. Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: How do you feel like the redress movement influenced or shaped your own activism or work around storytelling around Japanese American history? Chizu Omori: A lot because I didn' ; t pay attention to that whole incarceration experience for a long time. First of all, I was really happy that we didn' ; t go to Japan, so I didn' ; t care about anything else. We didn' ; t go to Japan, so I was just glad. And then you just start going to school and picking up life, which was pretty non-eventful in the sense that I never felt any hostility directed towards me or anything like that. Other people did. They had a hard time readjusting because they got hostility back from the community that they moved into. But I didn' ; t. A lot of urban kids, I think they just went back into high school and all resumed their lives, more or less. And after all, we' ; d just gone through a world war, and think of what had happened to the rest of the world, or even the United States. And so I think all the GIs coming back and everything, everybody was just trying to reestablish their lives. Survival was the main thing, so we didn' ; t have time to think about, " ; Oh, what a terrible thing it was." ; We survived, you know? So anyway, and I' ; d say for the Issei generation it was terrible. But for younger generations who could really start their lives more or less, it wasn' ; t so terrible, all things considered. I mean, we were able to go to school and get going again and all that, but this was true for lots and lots of people coming back from the, the soldiers coming back and everybody starting over or starting again. So we didn' ; t dwell on what had happened to us. It was only later. Katherine Nagasawa: And in part sparked by the redress movement, that it got you thinking about it again. Chizu Omori: Oh, yeah. I guess when I think about why people didn' ; t talk about it, I mean, well, it was very painful and there was nothing they could do about it or anything. And so I think that it was something that was not, I mean, yeah, what could they do about it? Nothing. But with redress, we could do something about it. At least we could talk about it or complain about it and get heard. So yeah, it' ; s only people like Michi Weglyn and I don' ; t know how she got interested in all this. I knew her, but I don' ; t know. I never talked about this kind of thing with her, but I think she was a good friend of Wayne Collins, or maybe she got interested and met Wayne Collins, and then he educated her on all this stuff. I think that he was a major influence on her. Katherine Nagasawa: For Rabbit In The Moon, you had to get a lot of people to share their stories, right? Do you feel like people would' ; ve been as open to doing that, had redress not happened? If the redress movement never happened, the commission hearings never happened, would the documentary have been made? Chizu Omori: Well, I wouldn' ; t have made it, first of all. But I think there were people willing to talk about it if somebody had asked them. I think so. The problem is, the reason why I felt like making the documentary is because even though redress happened, so how many people knew about it? I mean, in terms of the United States? Just us, you know, basically. Because most people... Well, they weren' ; t interested. Most people, I think. And when I talked to reporters during redress, some of them, their jaws would drop and they said, " ; I just can' ; t believe it. I can' ; t believe this happened," ; sort of thing. So you had to overcome a whole lot of resistance to acknowledging and learning about this terrible thing that the government had done. Katherine Nagasawa: It was almost a general public education effort. Chizu Omori: Yeah. And I feel now that younger JA generations, they don' ; t know very much. They' ; re very ignorant about all of this in spite of redress, you know? Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, and I feel like for me, it' ; s like we are running out of time to capture direct stories. It just feels very urgent. Chizu Omori: It' ; s now or never. I' ; m a little bit older of the really young generation. Emi is 10 years younger than me, so she has no memories. She was one year old when she went in, so she has no memories of camp. So she could say, " ; I was in camp," ; but she can' ; t tell you anything about it. And I can' ; t tell you too much either, because I was not old enough to understand what was happening. Katherine Nagasawa: And like you said, so much of the Issei experience who were actually adults who could really process it, were totally lost so, yeah. I wanted to end today just by talking about the connections between Japanese American incarceration and the redress movement and some of your activism today around... You went to the Fort Bliss for Tsuru [for Solidarity], you' ; re very involved in Tsuru [for Solidarity]. What do you feel like the ties, or do you feel like there are ties between your activism and the redress movement and what you focus on today with your activism for other communities? Chizu Omori: Well, I don' ; t know that there' ; s any particular ties because I' ; ve always been a political civil rights activist, generally. And with Trump in office, the whole immigration thing, the family separation policy and having to, I mean, kicking everybody back into Mexico, all those policies, Tsuru was organized to address the asylum seeker problems through Satsuki Ina, who actually went with Carl Takei, who was the JACL lawyer to which ones? Did they go to Fort Bliss? But this is way before the stuff had publicity. She went with him. And so she actually got into an immigration station where she talked to some of the mothers and the small children and all that. And she came back and wrote an article about her experience visiting these kids. And it was widely copied in the media here and there and stuff. So she knew that it exists and what' ; s happening to the families and that kind of thing. So when a pilgrimage to Crystal City was organized, she was part of the organizing group. And I wanted to go to see Crystal City because I knew about it, but I' ; d never been there. So I said, " ; Oh, sure, let' ; s go." ; And actually, that' ; s where Japanese Peruvians, those people, went because they were held at Crystal City. So that' ; s where we met a bunch of those people. And it was agreed that as long as we were there, we may as well go to this detention center, the largest in Texas, where families and women and children all were there. Let me see, that was from San Antonio, so what was that one called? Dilley or something like that. Anyway, so our leader, great leader, Mike Ishii, suggested that, why don' ; t we make tsuru, fold tsuru, the kind that are folded for Hiroshima and all that, and why don' ; t we take these? And so through the internet, a call goes out that says " ; We would like people to fold cranes and we will take them to Texas and we will use these to decorate the fences of the detention center or whatever." ; And we got I don' ; t know how many cranes, thousands, maybe 50,000 or I don' ; t know. More than I can remember. And suddenly it became a movement, you know? And there is this kind of genius aspect of it, of having a symbol like the folded crane that people can actually make. We had people in San Quentin prisons send us a box full of cranes and we got some from Japan. Anyway, that it was very eye-catching and very dramatic. So that' ; s why, that' ; s how Tsuru For Solitary was born in this one act that we decided to do down in Texas. And we actually went to the state legislature and gave them cranes and talked to those legislators and all that. And then we went to several churches where people were being given asylum. Small families of asylum seekers were in the churches. So we got to go to some of the churches and meet those people. So in that one trip we just did an awful lot. And it was very exciting. Was it on that trip? Some of us went across the border into Mexico, but I had to do something else. I was responsible for doing something else so I didn' ; t get to go with the rest of them that went across the border. But then they saw people down there, too, on the border. They met people from Africa, for instance. I mean, it' ; s not just South Americans and Central Americans. People from all over are there trying to bust into the United States. So we keep learning things when we do these things. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m curious, do you feel like Japanese Americans, we won our own version of reparations and redress. Do you feel like we have a responsibility to support other communities in those kinds of reparations fights, like H.R.40? Chizu Omori: Oh, I think so. But I' ; m just speaking for myself. Katherine Nagasawa: And why? Could you start that thought with, " ; I believe that..." ; Chizu Omori: Well, when you begin to study the history of the United States, it' ; s just so horrifying that how can you not feel that something, we need to acknowledge it somehow more than we have? So I just feel like we should form coalitions with other groups, other peoples of color, so that we could become a political voice to have a seat at the table and have a say in policy formation and stuff like that. That' ; s what I would like to see. That' ; s going to be hard to do. But I think there' ; s a tendency for Asian Americans not to identify with other people, like Black people and such. But we live here, it' ; s our country. And so it' ; s our history, slavery and all that. Of course, we weren' ; t responsible or anything for it, but we owe it to other members of our communities that were badly affected by policies of our country. So. Besides, if we don' ; t stick up for our rights, they' ; re just going to be taken away from us gradually, even like voting and all those things. I mean, let' ; s face it, there' ; s a very frightened white group that they' ; re frightened of us. And if they had their way, we wouldn' ; t have any power at all. I mean, I don' ; t want to make it an " ; us and them" ; situation, but we have to be realistic that there are people who are worried that they' ; re going to be the minority one in these days. They are. So we should be ready to stick up for our rights, you know. Katherine Nagasawa: And then I guess finally, what do you think that the Japanese American redress movement can teach other communities that are looking for repair or redress? What do you think are the biggest lessons? Chizu Omori: A precedent has been set. That it is possible. Katherine Nagasawa: Could you start by saying, " ; I think the biggest lessons are..." ; Just as a full sentence. Chizu Omori: Well, the biggest lessons are that it is possible even working within the system, you might say, it is possible that some justice can be retrieved from... Retrieved, is that the right word? I don' ; t know. Anyway, that we do have a constitution, and we do have highfalutin' ; notions of " ; all men are born equal" ; and all that kind of stuff. And we should all work towards those to make those real and not just theoretical. And redress, at least it taught me that a determined small group can get heard and get some redress, some recognition, and I think it' ; s good for the soul to feel that you are not totally powerless. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you think for you, redress... What kind of effects did it have on you personally to have the apology and for the legislation to be passed, for your own psyche? Chizu Omori: I kind of was estranged, if that' ; s the right word, from the JA community. I think my experience in camp made me feel like, " ; I don' ; t really like the Japanese American society. It has no place for me. So I' ; m just going to step away from it and kind of meld into white society." ; Which I did for a long time because I married a white man and I was active. Well, Berkeley, you could become...Well in my circles, race didn' ; t really matter so much. It was more like how you felt and what you thought, that kind of thing politically and all that. It just was not until say, civil rights really got rolling in the sixties and such, then I became very aware of Black history and Native American history too. So, gee, what am I getting at here? Was it about redress? What it did for me? Katherine Nagasawa: Oh yeah, for you. Chizu Omori: It brought me back into the Japanese American community. And I felt like after what we had gone through, we should have more sympathy and more empathy for other peoples of color in this country. And the JAs just did not seem to care. At least it looked like that to me. And I now see that they were just so busy reestablishing their lives that they really... And they wanted to keep their heads down. They were not politically active because I think they felt very vulnerable. We were, and we had been, certainly, yeah. But also I grew up in the farms in San Diego County down there, so I had seen the way Mexicans were treated down there. Rather than Blacks it was really the Mexicans that were the lowest on the totem pole and mistreated and exploited and all that sort of thing. So there' ; s that brown community too. We have hardly talked about them, but I was aware of that. So it looked like peoples of color, Black, brown, whatever, Native, red. They used to call him the " ; red man." ; Geez. But that all of us had a lot in common, that it was white supremacy and white attitudes towards peoples of color. Katherine Nagasawa: I think lastly, I just see if there' ; s any questions I didn' ; t ask or anything else you wanted to share -- final reflections before we close up. Chizu Omori: That' ; s okay. You said you... You want to a cough drop? Katherine Nagasawa: [coughs] Any final parting words? Chizu Omori: Oh, I' ; ll take a drink. Katherine Nagasawa: I think we' ; ll be wrapping up in a minute. Chizu Omori: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: I think lastly I just want to see if there' ; s any questions I didn' ; t ask or any thoughts you wanted to share, final reflections before we close out the interview today. So any final parting words or thoughts? Chizu Omori: Well I think that William Hohri and the people who were very active in the NCJAR lawsuit were very courageous and I think what they did was really true to democracy, I' ; ll put it that way. That they were protesting grievances that were committed by the government and they wanted to do it in a way that would connect to the basics in this country and such, and that they cannot get away with violating the systems of the government and the laws and such like that. They can' ; t get away with it. That they had to be held accountable for what they did. Katherine Nagasawa: And they all tied it, right. It was like 22 constitutional violations, right? Chizu Omori: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sitting with me and sharing. You have an amazing memory also. Chizu Omori: Well- Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; m so impressed. Chizu Omori: You know what? You should have gotten me 10 years ago. I' ; d have been a lot better. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OmoriChizu20221110.xml OmoriChizu20221110.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Omori, Chizu (11/10/2022)
Description
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Chizu Omori, a Nisei born in the San Diego area and incarcerated at Poston during World War II, describes becoming politically active at UC Berkeley in the 1950s, participating in the Civil Rights Movement, and supporting the Japanese American Redress Movement in Seattle in the 1970s and '80s. She remembers helping Issei draft written testimonies and delivering her own oral testimony at the Seattle CWRIC hearings. Chizu also shares her experience serving as a plaintiff for the NCJAR class action lawsuit spearheaded by William Hohri, including memories of her 1987 trip to Washington D.C. to attend the Supreme Court hearing. She concludes by describing her involvement with Tsuru for Solidarity and stressing the importance of interracial solidarity.
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2022-11-10
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress