2
10
140
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/73a865285ff955ab383f837f0aa32780.png
8af48683a54ab58977225da2397e7e9b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Machida, Ethan Michihiko
Interview Keyword
Shin-Issei
Mixed Japanese Ancestry
Sapporo
Moody Bible Institute
Christianity
Religion
Michigan
OHMS Object Text
5.4 3/23/2021 Machida, Ethan Michihiko (3/23/2021) 26:57:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese American Families--Michigan Japanese American college students Shin-Issei Mixed Japanese Ancestry Sapporo Moody Bible Institute Christianity Religion Michigan Machida, Ethan Michihiko Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|19(10)|38(5)|57(7)|73(7)|99(7)|111(14)|124(10)|136(5)|161(10)|179(7)|190(2)|202(3)|221(7)|233(8)|244(3)|255(12)|268(14)|281(4)|292(2)|302(11)|314(13)|328(6)|340(13)|353(4)|362(3)|372(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/553128960/7e00dd8f90 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/553128960?h=7e00dd8f90" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ethan Machida is a first-generation Japanese American born in Sapporo, Japan. His mother is American, of Scottish descent, and his father is Japanese. When he was three years old, Ethan and his family moved to the United States, to a town in northern Michigan called Frankfort. After living there for about 10 years, the family moved for Ethan Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is March 23rd 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N Clark St. in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Ethan Machida. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Okay, so to start off with, I' ; m just going to ask you a few background questions for context. So if you could please state your full name? Ethan Machida (EM): My name is Ethan Michihiko Machida. EL: And in what year were you born? EM: 1998. EL: And where were you born? EM: I was born in Sapporo, yeah in Hokkaido, Japan. EL: So, could you tell me a little bit about your parents? EM: Yeah, so my mother is white American, Scottish descent, and then my dad is Japanese. He was born in the near, near Kannami I think, yup. EL: And when and how did they meet? EM: So they met in Japan... It' ; s kind of funny because my dad was a foreign exchange student to the US from Japan as a high schooler. And then he also went to undergrad and graduate school in the US, and then went back to Japan. And then my mom went to Japan and then they met there. She was involved with the local church, and then through her friends got connected with my dad there. EL: And then when did your family come to the US as a family? EM: When I was three years old, so at that point my mom would have been living in Japan for 12 years total up to that point. EL: Do you know when they first came to the US, at that time did they plan for it to be a permanent move? EM: Maybe not permanent, but at the very least long term just because they thought it was important for the--for us kids being bicultural, to have sufficient exposure in each homeland. EL: And where did you move to when you first came to the US? EM: So we moved to northern Michigan to a city called Frankfort. It was like maybe 1000 people, mostly white, and my mom had friends that lived in that area. And since at that time it was a poorer economic situation, and so that' ; s also where job opportunity was available. EL: So did your parents have work lined up for themselves before they came? EM: Kinda, yeah not very solidly. My dad' ; s job in Japan ended, so then my mom' ; s friend just encouraged them to come over to the US and said that " ; Hey you' ; ll probably be able to find a job." ; EL: And then did you stay in that part of Michigan, or did you move from there? EM: Yeah we stayed for a while until I was in the end of middle school so it would have been like ten--about 10 years we stayed in that city. And then we moved again for my dad' ; s job to a part in lower Michigan called Coldwater, Michigan. It was maybe 10,000 people, and much more diversity. And there was--so there was no Japanese community in Frankfort, Michigan but in Coldwater, there was. Not significant, but it was still present. EL: Okay so in your early childhood you were living in a place that really didn' ; t have any other Japanese American or Japanese families to speak of, but, but then you moved to a place that was more diverse? EM: Yeah, yup. And then yeah throughout that whole time, our grandparents and maybe some aunts, uncles, cousins would come visit maybe once a year and hang out for about 2 weeks or so. So we would have that kind of exposure. And then in Coldwater, there was a few car manufacturing companies and then they would bring Japanese executives to stay for a year or two years. They would bring their families and then for whatever reason our--our family always got in contact with them and made friendships so there' ; s that connection. EL: So the, so the community that you had in Coldwater was more Japanese expatriates-- EM: Yeah. EL: --than Japanese Americans. EM: Right, yup. EL: And then do your parents still live in that area, or... EM: Mhmm, yeah. And yeah they' ; re happy there and I think the community' ; s a good fit for them. EL: So when did you come to Chicago? EM: So I came to Chicago in 2018 to start studies at Moody Bible Institute. Originally I was studying engineering in northern Michigan at Michigan Technological University, but then decided to switch majors to pastoral studies. EL: And when you came to Chicago did you know anybody here? EM: No I was-- yeah no connections. I' ; m very grateful for the-- The communal aspect of Christianity. That, as you' ; re involved with the church, ideally people ought to welcome you as part of their community. So definitely being engaged with the local church was such a lucrative opportunity for finding community quickly. EL: Is that something that you grew up with, or is it something that you explored as an adult? EM: I think it' ; s both. We grew up going to church on Sundays, my mom is a Christian and my dad isn' ; t. Oddly enough, he was very supportive of us practicing Christianity, and the values in Christian belief system he was very supportive of. But it wasn' ; t till maybe high school age that I--I took it more seriously and tried to explore it for myself and invest more time into it. EL: So, to take it back a little bit when your family first came to the US, or actually prior to that when your father came alone as a young man has he ever talked to you about how it felt to him to leave Japan? EM: Yeah and he' ; s a funny character I think. Somewhat, somewhat rebellious, very adventurous and entrepreneurial. So he was very open-minded about coming to America. And his father gave him the opportunity to send him to a university in Japan or send him to America. So he chose the America route and was eager to go. I think at the end of his time in America he was a little bit homesick so he was happy to return. EL: And when your parents got married, did he feel very accepted by your mother' ; s family? EM: Yeah, in--in general. So my mother' ; s father actually fought in the Pacific theater of World War II. And one of the--the things that my uncles on my mother' ; s side of the family say it was kind of poetic justice that from my American grandfather' ; s time in World War II, he fostered uh--I think you could even call it a racism towards Japanese and--yeah that existed, and then by the time my mother got married, I guess supposedly it toned down enough for him to accept my father as, as part of the family. But the rest of my family is very, or the American side is very... Welcoming of him, and even--at family reunions it' ; s kind of weird ' ; cause me, my siblings, and my dad are the only colored people in the family reunion. But we' ; re still just as equally loved and as equally embraced. EL: How many siblings do you have? EM: Two siblings, one sister, one younger brother. My sister is a year older, and she just got married two years ago. And then my brother is a high school in senior--ah senior in high school. EL: So you mentioned that when you were growing up your relatives from Japan would come to visit-- EM: Mhmm. EL: --and I' ; m wondering if there' ; s maybe some other ways that you stayed in touch with them during that time, how did you--your family remain connected to friends and family back in Japan? EM: Mostly with phone calls and packages, yeah we would call maybe--or I know that my parents would call them once or twice a month and they would--we would send packages to each other a few times throughout the year. EL: Do you remember what was in those packages? EM: Yeah lots of Japanese candy, or the, the plastic like figures that you' ; d punch out of the molds and then put together. Yeah. EL: And since, since the initial move to the US when you were three, have you or any of your family members gone back to Japan? EM: Yeah, so my, my dad and sister--of our nuclear family went back. My dad would go back every once in a while for business trips, and then my sister after leaving high school--or graduating high school, she took a trip to Japan also. One of the things our parents want us to do or wanted us to do is that right after graduating high school, we would go to a foreign country by ourselves for like a month or so, so she chose to go to Japan. EL: And where did you go? EM: I chose to go to Scotland. My Japanese is very little so... And I also, I hate depending on translators, so when I go back to Jam--Japan, I would want to have my language skills refined much better, yeah. EL: Do you feel that your parents made efforts while you were growing up to transmit Japanese culture to you? EM: I definitely think so, aside from the, the food aspect of cooking Japanese food there are--I think a heightened sense of humility and self-sacrifice that seem characteristic of Japanese culture, that they were impressing on us as kids that I didn' ; t really notice in any of my American peers. So yeah, along with the cultural values, they use a bit of slang words in Japanese, talk about political differences. So they were, yeah, still intentional to incorporate it. EL: I' ; m curious to know, when you would interact with some of those Japanese expat families, as a child or young adult how did you feel during those encounters? EM: I always felt somewhat odd, or as if I didn' ; t fully fit in or so with the American community. I' ; m too Japanese to be fully American, with the Japanese community I' ; m too American to be Japanese. So there' ; s that maybe unspoken barrier of feeling fully in the community, but then it still wasn' ; t anything significant to make me cast out or shunned or anything. EL: And did you, or--or have you had much interaction with Japanese Americans whose families had been in the country for longer? EM: When I came to Chicago, yes. Just because some of my classmates were also Japanese Americans so yeah we would eat lunch together, hang out every once in a while. EL: So, so that was not really until--what you' ; re 18, 19 years old before you-- EM: Right. EL: --become a little bit more aware of another category of Japanese Americans. EM: Right yeah, before then it was mostly exposure to Japanese, and not so much Japanese Americans. EL: And did you learn much about Japanese immigration history, or Japanese American incarceration in school? EM: Yeah briefly though, I think probably to the same extent that I would have learned about Chinese Americans or maybe even--I don' ; t know Arab Americans. So there' ; re... Yeah there were some aspects that we' ; d learn about like the incarceration camps, or even like I think in the 1960s, 70s, the riots that would happen. And especially being in close proximity to Detroit, in Novi, Michigan there are a lot of, I think more conversations that I heard about Japanese Americans in that time and kind of how as the car company manufacturers became more prominent there--they incurred some more hate, yeah. EL: Do you remember when you were first learning about those things, did you feel connected to the people that had that happen to them? Or did you feel like you were just learning about--it could have been any group of people? EM: Yeah I think more towards the second option, it seemed like a--a group of people. Mostly because, I wonder if it was the, the lack of pictures or stuff that I saw ' ; cause it was like mostly words. Yeah, then again that also made more, more clear the reality that in, in some circumstance, that could be me, that could be my, that could be my experience. So, even though I didn' ; t feel fully connected with the experience, it was still a opportunity of realization. EL: So, I' ; d like to kind of switch gears a little bit an--and explore your experiences here in Chicago. And I' ; m wondering to what extent have you felt welcome by Chicago' ; s Japanese American community? EM: I think t--to the extent that I put myself out there, welcomed. So I haven' ; t done much on my own part to engage, and I think for the Japanese community--Japanese American community, if they don' ; t know that I' ; m here then they can' ; t necessarily welcome me. But especially with JASC, there' ; s so many opportunities that they' ; re inviting anyone to come be a part of. Even with like the, the origami group, I signed up and they were very welcoming for me to come. EL: And I guess I' ; m curious to know, when you, when you meet people within this community do you feel any need to explain your own family narrative? EM: I think when I was younger, there was kind of like a, a shame for like the, the amount of Japanese culture--or the amount of distance that I' ; ve had with Japanese culture, and making excuses like " ; Oh well my, my parents didn' ; t raise me much with it" ; or " ; There are other priorities" ; or " ; I was busy with other stuff." ; And even though I think it is sad that I' ; ve, I' ; ve lost touch with a bit of Japanese culture, I think I' ; ve come to terms with it and I' ; m--mostly because as of now I' ; m trying to get back into it. That I think posture of re-engagement kind of helps me feel more comfortable with being, yeah being in the Japanese American community. EL: So what are some of the things that you' ; ve done to try and re-engage or reclaim this piece of your heritage? EM: I think one, definitely language study, in the summers I try to do whatever programs I can to bring back the vocabulary and the grammar, and listening to more Japanese music and intentionally buying recipes where I' ; ll be cooking Japanese foods to kind of hold onto those cultural aspects. Also, looking back more into history, especially Japanese Christian history as Christianity is a big part of my identity, and I know that it' ; s been seen as maybe antithetical, or somewhat unnatural to Japanese culture. Even though there' ; s kinda a not so well known about history of Christianity in Japan, so to study more about figures such as Toyohiko Kagawa, have been kind of, some of those other ways. EL: As you were growing up, did you know very many other mixed race, specifically other Japanese mixed with another race, families or children? EM: Mmm, not that I can think of, yeah I think, yeah growing up, very little exposure. EL: And, especially when you were living in, in the less diverse location, did you ever experience bias or prejudice that you were aware of as a child? EM: I think yes, but in, in a good way, where people made the uneducated stereotypes that oh, just because I' ; m Asian I' ; m smart, or I know karate so don' ; t mess with him. Or...Being, being different or unique, in that context was looked at as a good thing or like a cool thing, so in, in that situation it played toward my benefit. Even though I understand that for a lot of other people it normally plays towards their own downfall. So I was privileged in that area. EL: Do you think that your parents are able to fully grasp your experiences growing up in this country being half? EM: I haven' ; t thought about that question before. To one extent I would say, at least minimally, because they both know what it' ; s like to be an outsider in a majority culture. Maybe to the extent that not being a--or not having a full sense of belonging to either side, I--I don' ; t think they could real--identify much with that. Because, yeah while my mom was in America she could still fully relate to the American expats or even Americans back at home and same for my dad with the Japanese. And so yeah, for myself I think the, one of the unique feelings is not necessarily feeling like I fit into both, but when there is another Japanese American there' ; s that connection kind of maybe brings us closer in a, I don' ; t know, odd mystical way. EL: There are a lot of words they get used to--to describe people who are mixed race like us. Sometimes we refer to ourselves as half, or hafu, sometimes, sometimes it' ; s double, right? Some people use the term hapa, do any of those terms resonate with you? EM: To some extent, my, my dad would jokingly say " ; Don' ; t let anybody call you half." ; So from that I picked up that it was kind of more of a derogatory term. And so maybe in like self-deprecating jokes I would refer to myself as half. And then the, the peers that I were around there weren' ; t very culturally aware, or aware of diversity and the reality, so it would be much easier to call myself just Japanese rather than white or Japanese American mhmm. EL: And do you think your specific geographic location had a big impact on the types of experiences you had? EM: In comparison to others I--I would say so. If I was in maybe rural South America I might experience more-- I don' ; t know, more of a feeling of outcast or not, not belonging, or maybe if I was on West Coast, maybe I would see a lot more Japanese Americans and be more exposed to that culture. EL: This might seem a strange question, but I' ; m just curious to know if you' ; ve ever wondered what your life would have been like if your parents had chosen to stay in Japan? EM: Hmm, I haven' ; t thought about that, yeah. ' ; Cause I very much appreciate my experiences in the US, and definitely there' ; s been a lot of blessings from it and benefits from it. I definitely see that it would be different, and... Yeah so, when y--I, I don' ; t think I would have as much exposure to the Hispanic or Arab communities that I' ; ve had here if I were to be in Japan. I think a lot of the American mentalities or cultural values I probably wouldn' ; t be so understanding of if I were to grow up in Japan. So, I think those are some things that come to mind. EL: And do you still feel very connected to your family that' ; s in Japan? EM: Yeah, yeah we even have a group chat and so actually--maybe a month or t--yeah about a month ago my grandfather passed away from my Japanese side of the family. And even then we' ; re--I think yeah, all the more communicative, but, yeah we still send each other emails, or follow each other on social media. And that' ; s more of a surface, surface level way of connection, but then there' ; s also like the phone calls and relaying messages through other people and taking visits, mhmm. EL: What motivated you to participate in this oral history project? EM: I thought, yeah, just to... To share another, or let myself be a data point reference. I--yeah I' ; m not sure how much significance or relevance my story would have for, for anybody but for whatever it' ; s worth, I thought to offer it. EL: And specifically with regard to the Japanese American Service Committee, you mentioned to me that you' ; ve been receiving the emails, with announcements of things going on and that this is one of the, the first times that you' ; ve taken the step of engaging, right? And I' ; m curious to know, what would you like to see from specifically JASC, but also the larger Japanese American community moving forward? EM: I think yeah part--partly my, my answer would be ignorant since I haven' ; t seen all that JASC does. From, from the reports that I see or different stuff on social media and through the emails, I think they do a lot so I' ; m impressed by their activity and grateful for their intentionality. Maybe, maybe some more collaboration with different groups in Uptown in specific, I think would help promote JASC, help their presence be known more, and maybe open up more opportunities for them to be part of the community and serve and impact the community. EL: And then I guess my, my final question is what do you most want people to know or understand about you and your life experiences? EM: Mmm, I' ; m, I' ; m definitely a product of my environment, but there' ; s been so much undeserved goodness that I received from--and I, I truly, truly have to be humble. Because yeah, everything that I' ; ve received is a gift, and that my-- Yeah my, my Christian perspective of having God as the center and being able to relate through Jesus is very transformative for myself. I know that not everybody is into religion and not necessarily favorable to it, but I think that' ; s been the, the biggest impactor of my life. EL: I think we' ; ve covered most of the questions that I had prepared ahead of time, but I wanted to leave space for you in case there was anything that you felt we hadn' ; t yet talked about, that you would like an opportunity to share. EM: Mmm, yeah nothing, yeah nothing really comes to mind. EL: Okay, then I think we' ; ll conclude the interview there. EM: Okay. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MachidaEthan20210323.xml MachidaEthan20210323.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
Sort Priority
4500
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MachidaEthan20210323.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Machida, Ethan Michihiko (3/23/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Ethan Machida is a first-generation Japanese American born in Sapporo, Japan. His mother is American, of Scottish descent, and his father is Japanese. When he was three years old, Ethan and his family moved to the United States, to a town in northern Michigan called Frankfort. After living there for about 10 years, the family moved for Ethan's father's work, which took them to Coldwater, Michigan. In college, Ethan first studied engineering before feeling called to pastoral studies, which brought him to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. As a young adult, Ethan decided to engage more with Japanese language, food, and Christian Japanese religious history in order to reconnect with his personal Japanese identity and ancestry.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese American Families--Michigan
Japanese American college students
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-03-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Series: Oral History Project
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/83932e36ca7c0230368fe3a9fe08172b.png
75b20bc24f90543fab43c7a6db1ef2f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kawaguchi, Kayoko (Kay)
Interview Keyword
Shin-Issei
Sansei
Terminal Island
Wakayama
Osaka
Rohwer
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Chicago Shimpo
Japanese American Service Committee
OHMS Object Text
5.4 6/2/2021 Kawaguchi, Kayoko (6/2/2021) 1:05:12 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Shin-Issei Sansei Terminal Island Wakayama Osaka Rohwer Edgewater Beach Hotel Chicago Shimpo Japanese American Service Committee Kawaguchi, Kayoko (Kay) Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|22(9)|41(11)|60(13)|79(2)|95(1)|108(13)|116(1)|123(10)|134(3)|143(6)|152(12)|165(7)|177(9)|187(9)|201(5)|219(11)|227(4)|234(3)|247(10)|260(16)|266(13)|281(10)|307(5)|321(7)|331(6)|341(14)|349(4)|368(4)|376(1)|384(2)|397(5)|407(14)|415(12)|432(5)|445(1)|456(11)|468(9)|477(10)|484(5)|499(6)|508(11)|516(6)|539(11)|550(13)|574(14)|584(5)|595(2)|601(8)|616(14)|625(3)|634(7)|641(4)|648(5)|658(2)|669(5)|679(10)|689(6)|697(3)|708(9)|719(2)|727(3)|733(2)|743(6)|754(2) 0 https://vimeo.com/563747629/5ed5d00363 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/563747629?h=5ed5d00363" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kay Kawaguchi, a shin-issei/sansei, describes the pre-war immigration journeys of her family and her husband's family, her husband's experiences while incarerated at Rohwer, and her own experiences in Japan during and after WWII. She also recalls her arrival in the U.S. in 1970 on a temporary visa and the circumstances that led to her eventual marriage and permanent residence in Chicago. A long-time employee at the Chicago Shimpo and the Japanese American Service Committee, she reflects on her community-centered work and shares her hopes for the future. Emma Lincoln (EL): Today is June 2nd, 2021, and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee Building at 4427 North Clark Street in Chicago, Illinois. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Kay Kawaguchi. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Thank you for joining us today. Kay Kawaguchi (KK): You' ; re welcome. EL: To get us started, could you please state your full name for me? KK: Kayoko Kawaguchi. EL: Okay, and what is your year of birth? KK: 1942. EL: And where were you born? KK: Osaka, Japan. EL: And is that also where you grew up? KK: Uhh, partially. I went to Wakayama, my mother' ; s hometown, because of the war and came back to Osaka again, so yeah, mostly. EL: And were your parents and grandparents also born and raised in Osaka or Wakayama? KK: My father' ; s side, and my mother' ; s side is Wakayama. EL: And when people ask what generation are you, how do you answer? KK: Shin-Issei. EL: Okay, and when did you come to the U.S. yourself? KK: 1970. EL: Okay, and who were the first people in your family to come to the U.S.? KK: My grandparents is Issei, so actually I' ; m a Issei, Shin-Issei, but it skipped. Because my mother is Japanese, because she was born in Japan, and my grandparents was born in Wakayama and immigrated to the U.S. And later, before the war started, they went back to Japan. My two uncles was born in U.S. so they are American citizens. EL: So your maternal grandparents immigrated, do you know approximately when that was? KK: I don' ; t exactly know. EL: Maybe early, early 20th century? Maybe? KK: Right. EL: And had some children in the U.S., and then returned to Japan, and then your mother was born in Japan, right? KK: Ah no, it was real funny story. My grandmother had 5 children, first 3 was the girls. Every time she was--got pregnant, she went back to Japan, and had the baby in Japan. Then left with the grand--her parents, and came back to U.S., that she did it for 3 times. Then last 2 was the boy, and I guess she was tired, going back and forth so, she had 2 boys in U.S. EL: I see. That' ; s very interesting that she was able to go back and forth-- KK: That' ; s right-- EL: --between the U.S. and Japan multiple times. So do you know much about what your grandparent' ; s life was like, on the West Coast? KK: Not much, but I think my grandfather was a fisherman in Terminal Island, and my grandmother was working at the cannery at that time, that' ; s only I know. EL: And were they still alive when you were born? KK: Yes. EL: When your family returned to Japan before you were born, do you know wh--why they chose to move back? KK: Oh that--that was original plan, well they immigrate here, they work hard, save money, and going back to Japan, and live in Japan. EL: I see. KK: But my um--one of the uncle, the oldest son returned to U.S., before war started, so he' ; s the one called, I don' ; t know, kibei? So he' ; s only one came back, then war started. EL: Okay, so when the war started, that uncle, was he living in the exclusion zone? Was he sent to a camp? KK: No, he was drafted after the war started, he was living with the, his uncle and cousins the time, then war started and he was drafted. And younger brother in Japan was also drafted in Japanese army. EL: Did that cause pain for your family? KK: Probably, but I was too young, so I don' ; t remember. But I know the grandmother was always worried about both side. EL: Right. So I' ; m going to shift gears a little bit, and talk about your husband' ; s family. And can you tell me a little, whatever you know, about your husband' ; s family' ; s experience during World War II? KK: My father-in-law, I never met him before I married, he passed away, but he was born in Niigata, Japan, and somehow moved to Wakayama, and lived there. And one day I guess he decided to come to the U.S. when we young and he, I think it was California, in San Francisco area? And he was doing school boy and going to school and working for the family, American family. And their family was, those days, governor or mayor' ; s brother' ; s house? And when he grew up, um--I think that master told him " ; You better get married" ; . So he wants to marry some Japanese woman so went back to Japan and married to the, my husband' ; s mother, and came back. In that time, that' ; s the way before the war started, and my husband' ; s mother and father was 22 years different in age--almost like father and daughter. But I guess it' ; s everything went well, then one day young...his friend, his friend wants to rent farm, to start farming. But he was not Japanese--I mean American, so he couldn' ; t rent a place. Then my husband' ; s father was uh, " ; OK, I think I can do that for you" ; so he went to the master and ask for it, and this one is I just hear, I don' ; t know if it' ; s truth or not. Master wrote the letter to the officials, " ; this boy was born in U.S. and I know his parents was. He grow up here and went back to Japan, so he was American citizen" ; , and he got the paper and also um he can help the friend to rent the farm. But after that, we found out it was not true, because he had Japanese passport. My husband asked me one day, " ; Why did my father have a Japanese passport when he was a U.S. citizen?" ; then I found out that, that wasn' ; t true. Then-- EL: So, the whole, the whole time your husband thought that his father had been a U.S. citizen, and then how old was he when that passport was discovered? How was your husband when the passport was discovered and he learned his father was not a U.S. citizen? KK: That passport was, he is in, if it' ; s not mistake, probably he was late 20s, so um his real age was different. EL: So what happened to your husband' ; s family then? When the war started? KK: So living, my husband was born in, um, whoops, Downey, California. And I think he went to school there, and grammar school. So, so he have uh, three sisters, and he was the last one and it was boy, so father was really happy. Then when he was seven-years-old, the war started. No wait, maybe the war started...10 I think went in camp, and there was, Rohwer, Arkansas. The whole family went in there, so my sister-in-law went to high school in that camp. This maybe half year or one year before war ended, they came, got out the camp, went to Michigan. They had a farming job, they' ; re looking for the season labor, so the whole family went there. EL: I see, did they talk much about the camp experience when you met them? KK: Mmm, a little bit. But my husband had some good time when he was young, some older people there it' ; s like uh, maybe teenager, or 17-18 years old friend, the couple people had a duty there going to a town once a week or something to pick up a mail in the post office and bring to the camp. So he wants to go out the camp, I mean city. Then friend said, " ; You wanna go?" ; , he says " ; Yes" ; . They put him into the bag, the mail bag, tied the top, put him in a car, and drove out the gate and went to pick up a mail and peek a little bit, and outside the town and again he' ; s in the bag and come back to the camp. [Laughs] EL: And he didn' ; t get caught? KK: Didn' ; t get caught. [smiles] EL: Having grown up in Japan yourself and not having come to the U.S. until much later after the war, were you aware of the history of incarceration of Japanese Americans? KK: I heard about it but I never thought that bad, because in Japan a lot of people had difficult time those days. No meal. But those days I hear that they had enough meal. Well I don' ; t know the truth or not but that' ; s what I hear it. And American government took care of them, but in Japan it' ; s all country but most of people they have enough to eat and they always have to escape from the bombing. So there was a hard time. EL: You were very young during the war. Do you, do you have clear memories of the hardships that you experienced during the war? KK: Mmm, my father went to the war, drafted. So my mother and myself went to mother' ; s hometown it' ; s a village rural area and lived there with a grandmother. And I was small, and those village, didn' ; t have much childrens because young man is all went to the war, and not many young, small, kids there. So I walk around the neighbors, and I always get treat, they was so happy, and I didn' ; t have much memory of that hard time. EL: How about during the occupation period? KK: That time, I was back to Osaka. Then father came back from the war, and we lost the house and everything else. So we rent the friend' ; s house or whatever. Even that, they probably, adult had hard time, all the mothers and other people. But I don' ; t have much memory of that. And few year later, my uncle in Japan, contact to us, " ; War is ended" ; so he sent us, once a month? Maybe every other month? Small package from Japan. I was looking forward to it. [Smiles] There' ; s lot of candies in there. [laughs] EL: He was sending from Japan or from the U.S. to Japan? KK: From U.S. to Japan. EL: So this is your uncle who stayed in the U.S. and served in the U.S. military. Okay, what was in those packages? KK: Packages is candies, coffee, and I remember the Crisco? And the funny thing is uncle sent to grandmother, to his mother, he said, " ; What you want?" ; well we didn' ; t have much things here, but food didn' ; t taste good. So what he sent to her is little packages of Aji-no-moto. [laughs] It' ; s really funny in U.S. they had Aji-no-moto! [laughs] EL: It' ; s a Japanese product! KK: It is! EL: So your, your uncle living in the U.S. was sending a Japanese product from the U.S. back to Japan. KK: Yeah, just Aji-no-moto, all other stuff is-- EL: Was American? KK: Mhmm, and that, I remember the spam, the can of spam he sent us. That was a treat for me. It' ; s meat, which usually we don' ; t eat much. But I had uh fish, a lot of fish, living in, near the ocean in Wakayama, but that--and Lipton' ; s chicken noodle soup, in the dry package? That I loved, those days. And because other, other families don' ; t have those things, so when every time package come, mother and grandma cut up the paper, and put the candy in so many different papers and wrap up, and they give to the neighbor' ; s kid. So I was watching this, is that my candy gonna be here, left, when it' ; s end of the day? I would worry about it! And it' ; s about, I was uh three, four, four years old? But I said, we didn' ; t have much rice but we had plenty of seafood. And one things when I think about now was that actually, after the war ended, no more bombing, fishermen went out to the ocean, and they found a lot of lobsters there living under the, you know ocean. And they caught a lot! So that was, they provided us this, replace the rice, the big lobster in our house, and we can' ; t eat it up right away, so grandmother wrap up the lobster in the cloth, and keep ' ; em in under the tatami, the ground. They live in there for a while, there' ; s no refrigerations, and sleep, at night time, I hear the noise, ' ; gigigigi' ; , it' ; s you know the, they rubbing their, you know? Body? There was uh--big lobster, they called it ise-ebi in Japan, delicious. And after I grew up, I didn' ; t have much chance to eat that! So expensive! [laughs] EL: So you were rice poor but lobster rich at that time. KK: Mhmm! [laughs] EL: I' ; m curious, and maybe, maybe you don' ; t know because you were a child then, but during the war especially, but also after the war, were your grandparents able to stay in communication with their one son who was serving in the U.S. military? KK: Yes, that letter they sent back and forth, yeah. EL: Skipping forward a little bit, to the point in your life where you left Japan and came to the U.S., and what year was that in again? KK: Excuse me, what was that? EL: What year was that in? KK: Oh I came here in 1970, but before that when I was a 4th grader, my grandpar--, --mother, --father, grandfather, passed away. And grandma and one of the uncle discharged from the Japanese military, he said I' ; m a American citizen, I' ; m taking my mother to, back to U.S. And brother is there, so he applied for that, and it took a few years because he went to the war in Japanese military, they didn' ; t okay right away. And um, when they went back to U.S., I went to the Kobe, the harbor, the big ship was there, called the President Wilson, the huge boat those days to me. And they went back to Japa--I mean U.S. with that boat. And since that, I was always thinking about, if I am going to U.S. someday, I want to go with that boat. So, when I was 28, the dream come true. Those days, already the airplane was available, but I want to get on that boat, and I found out the boat is almost end of the duty, last couple trip and going to uh military or something. So I got on and that time, they says, " ; There' ; s no space left for you" ; but then, they call me and they say " ; One cancellation, you want to go?" ; I says " ; Yes" ; . So I got on there. EL: So you chose to go on a boat even though you could have gone on an airplane? KK: Right. EL: And at that time there was your one uncle who had been in the U.S. the whole time, and the-and also the uncle and your grandmother who had already left Japan and went back to the U.S. KK: Grandmother that time she went back to Japan, she said " ; I' ; m too old, live in America" ; . And I think this country is for the young people, so she came back by herself and end her life in Japan. EL: I see. KK: After I came to here. But when I want to go, she said " ; You may and you have to go ' ; cause you' ; re young, you should experience the U.S." ; EL: So she encouraged you to go. KK: Yes. EL: Did you go by yourself? KK: Here? EL: Yeah, on that boat. KK: Yes. EL: Were you excited? KK: In a way, and also a little bit afraid of it, going to the new place. That' ; s another reason I took a boat. That' ; s 14 days in the ocean with other people, and many of them Americans. So I said, " ; Oh maybe I get used to a little bit" ; so... EL: That was very wise for you at age 20 to recognize you would need that slower transition. KK: Well, no I am 28 at that time. [laughs] EL: 28, still very wise! KK: Yeah. [smiles] EL: Do you remember the boat ride? KK: Mhmm, yes. That time, yes Yokohama. Then um, to the Hawaii is 10 days and from Hawaii to San Francisco was 4 days. And all the--really smooth trip, that crossing oceans. And Hawaii we get off for one day, and they had a, like a tour, but also you can go your own. And I think it was ju--partially took a tour, and first time start walking ground, it little bit funny because it' ; s 10 days in a boat you know move you know? But it was hot too and dry. And uh, I remember the first time I had a really, really, tasty pineapple. The place they, you know demonstration and cut up and serving to the people and um first time I found out you have to pay tax every time you buy something. And also, if it' ; s a restaurant you gotta give them a tip, which in Japan I never give to them, so it was real funny st--. " ; Oh maybe I wonder I have enough money for end of the trip?" ; . EL: How had you saved up enough money for your, your boat fare? KK: After high school I graduate, I start working, I don' ; t know what is college too but I think about it and I went company a small company I was start working there. And I also did a little bit for invest money. Then at night time I went to school, it' ; s not the regular college but for writing poems and novels, but my job got really busy and I have to give up because I couldn' ; t keep my eye open anymore! [laughs] So I quit the school, and time being I save money. EL: So when you arrived in the U.S., what was your intent? Were you planning to stay long term? KK: No, I just wanna see--meet every relative in the U.S. Because I have cousins and uncles. And cousin is previously visit to Japan once before I leave there so I knew them. Then um so I have a relative in California, L.A. and San Jose and uhh some in Chicago. So I says I would like to have one year to experience living there and meet the relatives. But they only give me 6 months. 6 months? It' ; s okay. So I came here and I want to do something, so, but, language is barrier. So I was taking a little class in Japan for flower arrangement, in Western style. And that school have a connection in Chicago' ; s flower arrangement school, so I registered for that, and they have some special class for us in Japanese. So I just did that, and that was a good thing because I paid in Japanese yen to tuitions, so I don' ; t have to spend my precious dollars. Only 1000 dollar I can have it, exchanged in those days. So I went to school a little bit in Japan and came here, and that was Chicago, so before the school start in September, I stay with my two uncles, one in San Jose and one in L.A. EL: When you say they only gave you 6 months, do you mean the government, the U.S. government, only gave you a 6 month visa? KK: That' ; s right, yes, passport, visa. EL: And you came to Chicago because of this connection between your flower arrangement school in Japan and-- KK: And my relatives. EL: --And the school here and your relatives here. KK: It was funny, day before the school start, my cousin took me to downtown, there was a school there, aba--uh Wabash. And I have to get off at the Van Buren to go into the school. And my cousin told me you get on, I think she told me " ; Blue" ; . And it' ; s " ; B" ; , don' ; t get on " ; A" ; , it' ; s a blue train and B. " ; Okay" ; . And I was, next day I was waiting in the station, blue train it never come, it' ; s all greens. And I look at the sign, and I saw that sign background was blue, and that " ; B" ; and I says " ; OH, that was--I was waiting for about 30 minutes in the station!" ; . [laughs] So I get on there and I was keep my ear open and looking outside, I will miss the station, and I didn' ; t know what the conductor saying, announcing. And I look at conductor and he was chewing gum and saying the same time. I says, " ; No wonder I can' ; t hear well because he chewing gum" ; . Then, after that he was stopped chewing gum still don' ; t--I don' ; t understand what he saying! [laughs] So, and anyway I catched the station and got off, then next day, same thing, but I don' ; t want to miss it because announce their way, it' ; s, they don' ; t say " ; next is where" ; and " ; Belmont, next" ; . So next always comes at end of it. So when said next, that means I missed the top, the beginning, the name of a station. So I count the station next day, and every time stop, 1, 2, 3! [laughs] EL: So that was how you figured out not to miss your station. KK: That' ; s right, so my ear was not used to English, and the pronunciation is different too. EL: Did you speak any English before you came here? KK: Not much, " ; hello" ; ," ; how are you?" ; , and " ; thank you" ; , and " ; what is this" ; , few words. But I live with my cousin' ; s house, and my cousins speak little Japanese, with most English, my aunt and uncle speak Japanese fully, so that was help. But the flower arrangement school, th--it--cousin took me to one day before, and its, " ; Oh good, because it' ; s full of students, all Japanese, okay I can go with them, maybe I don' ; t understand, but I can ask them." ; The day the school start, I went there, I am the only one Japanese. So I ask the secretary, " ; What happened to the other Japanese girls?" ; And she said, " ; Oh, they finished the course, and they went back to Japan." ; [laughs] That was the last day I went there, and I was only one. But most bo--arrangement things by hand, so I catch up. EL: So if your original intent was to stay for a year, but you were limited to six months by your visa, what changed? KK: Umm, I was, after the school training was, 4 weeks? When I finished that, the secretary told me, " ; One of the flower shops need of somebody help, so if you want to train, working there as a trainee, you can go there" ; . I said, " ; Okay, I learned something, so school is maybe not enough for it" ; , so I said okay, and also downtown. Right across the street, of--I mean a river of the merchandise mart, a small shop, I went there, and start working. Somehow, boss likes me. And of course the Japanese they work hard. And then um, I can' ; t get salary because I' ; m training, but he bought me lunch, and he gave me the bus fare. And so I was working, sometimes he pick me up too, and I was working there, and pretty soon I have to go back to Japan because my visa expired. Boss says, " ; Well, I need you here" ; . Cheap labor right? [laughs] Lunch and car fare! So he said, " ; My son is a lawyer so let me see if he could do something about it." ; Then, few weeks, just few weeks, he extended, another one year. EL: What was that boss' ; name? KK: Mike Kaplan. He passed away. EL: And what was the name of his flower shop? KK: ' ; Mike' ; s Floral Shop' ; . [smiles] EL: So, so Mike Kaplan' ; s son helped you extend your visa by another year, and then after that did you go back to Japan, or did you stay? KK: No, in time--in between I met my husband, and married. EL: And how did you meet your husband? KK: He was my auntie and uncle' ; s sister-in-law' ; s friend. They were in same camp, in Rohwer. And they was talking about it and I didn' ; t know. They said " ; One boy is out from camp in Chicago here, but he still single yet." ; EL: So they introduced you? KK: Mhmm, and he came to my, my uncle' ; s house, and the first time I met him, the first things he asked me, he tried to speak in Japanese, so he said, " ; Sakana suki desu ka?" ; [laughs] " ; Do you like fish?" ; I says, " ; The fish to eat, or fish in general?" ; I didn' ; t know his hobby was tropical fish and aquariums, so he explained to me, he says " ; I don' ; t know I like it or not, I never think about it" ; but I says " ; maybe" ; . [laughs] EL: What was your first impression of him? KK: Uhh, you know, the age difference was about 10 years, I know he was 10 year older than me, said " ; oh, a little bit too old for me" ; but then he looks young, and I didn' ; t make any decision, but I, and he' ; s nice, nice guy, seems honest. He look a little bit shy, but I start going date. EL: What kind of places did you go on your dates? KK: It was funny too, he said " ; You wanna go miniature golf?" ; He took me to golf, miniature golf course, and he drove all over, couldn' ; t find the place and he say, " ; I knew that was here, what happened to it?!" ; " ; You came before?" ; he says, " ; Yes!" ; " ; How long ago?" ; " ; 10 years" ; . I says " ; 10 years?! Maybe they are out of business or moved to some place!" ; [laughs] So that, you could tell what kind of, you know, person he is. And we went to Michigan for tulip festival, Wisconsin Dells, something like that. But mostly, just drive around here. EL: And at what point did you get married? KK: Between, I lost my grandmother. She passed away in Japan. I feel like I want to go back to Japan. Then, my mother told me, " ; Remember Grandma want you to live in the U.S., and she passed away already, and we finished the funeral, if you come back here maybe you cannot go back." ; So I decided here in that time, and he proposed me before, I says I wasn' ; t really ready, but that time I says, I decided. And I wasn' ; t young either, I was 29 already, so that' ; s what happened. [laughs] EL: And what was your early married life like? Where did you live? KK: Um, one things my husband was worried about, he asked me before I married, " ; If we marry, can' ; t you live with my mother?" ; That' ; s his mother, so my mother-in-law, and in a way, in Japan, usually that happens when husband is oldest son or something. So I says, " ; I don' ; t know why he is asking me, yeah, okay." ; And I think he met a couple other girls before me, they both said no, so he couldn' ; t get married! [laughs] So that' ; s what--we lived with his mother, and second floor, my sister-in-law' ; s living there with family, that' ; s what my American life actually started there. And I was sta--still working at the flower shop, and soon I got permanent visa. EL: How much longer did you continue to work at the flower shop? KK: Not too long full time, because year after that I got pregnant, I was kinda sick. But I was still going there until I had baby, or maybe a couple months before, I quit. But often the boss called me, and he wants to--you know help, on a holiday or something. EL: And where was your husband working during that time? KK: That time, he was working at a Medical, this company called Medical Chemical? They make medication for the government. EL: Do you happen to know, when he came out of camp, and his whole family came out of camp, they went to Michigan first farming, and came to Chicago, how did he go about finding employment? KK: In Michigan, he was still going high school that time. After graduated, his oldest sister found job in Chicago, she came by herself, start working, and telling the parents, " ; Why don' ; t you come to Chicago, there' ; s a lot of, uh you know, jobs?" ; and over there in winter time, no jobs. So they were working at restaurants in the Michigan, South Haven. So the whole family moved to Chicago. And that time, my husband went to school for two years with accounting or something, which he never finished it, he didn' ; t like the numbers. [laughs] Anyway, that was uh--no wait a minute, that' ; s I' ; m sorry, that' ; s mistake. He came here and he work different places, then he got drafted. Went to war, two years, came back, that time still the mother and father, and sister was living in the apartment. Then he decided, talked to father, " ; Let' ; s buy the apartment." ; And he was sending the money to parents from the military. He never went overseas, was saving money for the down payment. And came back, and Papa put some money in too, and bought apartment. Only two flat, but that' ; s enough for living themselves, and one of the sister' ; s and family. So that time, mother and father was working at the hotel. EL: Do you know which-- EL: Okay, I think we were talking about your husband' ; s family, and they moved from Michigan to Chicago and bought a two flat, and your in-laws were working at a hotel. KK: That' ; s right. EL: Which hotel was that? KK: Edgewater. EL: And I know your father-in-law passed away before you became part of the family, but did you ever hear your mother-in-law talk about that experience? KK: That working? EL: Working at the hotel? KK: Yeah I think she was um, maid, cleaning the room and the sheets and things. She didn' ; t say much about it, but um my husband every day drop her off at the hotel and pick her up, then he went to work and whatever, so um. Yeah he told me, yeah Mama didn' ; t tell me much but my husband, that time, he had one regular job, and one part time job, and one weekend job. And he paid off the apartment in six years. EL: By working 3 jobs. KK: Mhmm right. EL: And at that time, you were raising your children, and working sometimes with the flower shop? KK: Mhmm right, right. EL: That two flat, that, that his earnings from the military, and then his earnings from working three jobs helped pay for, where was that located? KK: 3642 North Wilton. Right next to uh Wrigley field. [laughs] EL: And that property has, has stayed in the family hasn' ; t it? KK: Hmm? EL: That property is still in the family, correct? KK: Right, right. EL: So that has been your home, here in Chicago ever since you were married. KK: That' ; s right, so I never pay rent. [laughs] EL: How was it living with your mother-in-law, that can be challenging sometimes. KK: Mhmm, first things I tell her, " ; Oh, it' ; s nothing" ; but it was something! [laughs] Because we grow up in totally different environment and different family, and uh generation is different too. But every time I think about it, it' ; s my husband' ; s mother, if we both had problem, he' ; s in between, so we tried not to. Then, I think I handled it pretty good. [laughs] EL: And eventually as your children got older, did you start working again? KK: Right, my um, the son, is youngest one, start going kindergarten. I, I decide to work, because I need a little bit more extra money to make things easier. So I was looking for the job, and one day I see that, a small ad in the Chicago Shimpo. They are looking for somebody, and for newspaper I have experience in Japan, maybe I will write article or something, so I called them, I say, " ; Anything I can do at home?" ; Writing article and send to them, I can do that. And they said, " ; No, we want somebody come to the office everyday." ; So I asked them, if I can start working after the kids go to school, and I can come home before kids come home? And they said okay. So I start working part time in the Chicago Shimpo this 1982. EL: And what kind of work did you do at the Shimpo? KK: Except typing, those days use cold type and we have 3 typists, they type it. That I couldn' ; t do that, because I never try, but other than that, I contacted people, and I went in interview, write article, take a picture, decide to take a picture because until that, the Chicago Shimpo not many pictures in, in the newspaper. The one picture could say 10 page of the, you know, articles, so I start taking picture. Then I went to get advertising, and sometime make artwork for the ad, clean up the place, I--I did almost everything, except the typing. EL: And how long did you work there? KK: 13 years. EL: Did you enjoy your work? KK: Uh yes, yes I really enjoyed it. [smiles] Because it' ; s connected to people, so... El: How do you think the Chicago Shimpo is different now, from how it was when you were working there? KK: Totally different, because when I was working there, I want to focus on the community. So I cover the community news, even small or big, big New Year party and some banquet for--or little things happen in some families. Now, and on top of that, it' ; s--we used to use the cold type to type the article, news, and cut up, cut and paste. Now, it' ; s everything by computer, so that' ; s makes a lot of difference. And those days, big things was the president bought fax machine, its not many place had it. So we get the news from Japan every morning, making big noise " ; dududududududu" ; news come out with the paper. And sometimes that paper thing catch the character, couldn' ; t read it. But that' ; s latest news. Now, you just open up the computer you could see everything is there. Totally different, and today, I think they' ; re focusing more for Japanese companies, and people who came from Japan, because subscribers changed too. And sometime when I was working, it was " ; Oh I don' ; t read much article, but I never miss the obituary, and we depending on that." ; I said " ; Okay, how about other work I am doing?" ; But I think that was really important for the community. EL: And then after you left the Shimpo, where did you work after that? KK: Uhh, there was not, I plan it originally, so I was unemployed for a while, then one of the um professors, University of Chicago. He was Mr.--uh Dr. Fujita. He is the expert of the tornados. They called him Mr. Tornadoes. He ask me, if you can help me, my research? So I went to his office, and help him the research, put together the information, it wasn' ; t that hard, I did it for about 1 year, then only report to the place it' ; s, maybe twice a month, no--yeah, twice a month, and most of work I can do at home, so that was about 1 year, and after that? I start going to school, in City College in Washington, in downtown? And I was there for about half a year, one semester maybe? One semester, and law firm, the person I know, " ; Would you like to come and help us?" ; So I wasn' ; t really keen on it, I don' ; t know, what can I do? But I went there, and they have a Japanese department, so I work there for 10 month, and I still think it' ; s not my job, so uh I quit. At that time, Chamber of Commerce, Japanese Chamber of Commerce, it not far from the place, they ask me to come, I says " ; Okay" ; , I don' ; t know what kind of job, but I went there. And about two and a half years I worked there, but I still missing something, and um, I was still working there, then the JASC' ; s pres--not the president, the CEO and assistant CEO came to JAS--I mean JCCC, Chamber of Commerce, for monthly for meeting, CJAC meeting. And every month they come, I just prepare for the tea for them, and whatever they need the copy and things, and one day, Jean Fujiu, and Sharon Harada was there. She just come to me and whispered me, " ; Would you like to come to JASC?" ; I says, " ; Huh, maybe that' ; s community things." ; So I quit Chamber of Commerce and came to here. This 1999, May. EL: Had you been involved with JASC before that? KK: Not really, when I was working in Shimpo, the English section editor was the president of the board here, JASC, for I don' ; t know how many years, Arthur Morimitsu. And from that, with--through him, I know that activity is, and he always bring article, so I translate to Japanese and put them in Japanese section, so in a way I knew, but, and sometimes I take a picture and gave to them, so that was it. EL: So your, your family, you and your husband and your children, or maybe your husband' ; s family, had not been actively participating in activities at JASC? KK: Not much, maybe just one, Kenjinkai, the Wakayama Kenjinkais, they were a group, and run picnic or a New Year' ; s Party or something like that. [smiles] EL: So in all these years that you' ; ve worked here at JASC, what do you think are some of the most important ways in which JASC has served the community? KK: Those days, even now, number one, one thing is, I like it is because it' ; s community, I know the people, we used to work with the Shimpo, I can still meet here and connect with them, and it' ; s really important to keep legacy here in Chicago. And my husband' ; s family went to the camp and worked, come to Chicago, and working with a lot of other people at the hotels or restaurant or whatever. And I thought I have to keep these things here, and same time, Japanese culture, it' ; s important, and I' ; m honest with it, I start learning Japanese culture after I came to U.S. Before that, I never think about it. It' ; s there, and I never going too far to learn it, more--I think I can learn more in Japan, but which I didn' ; t. So after that, um, the JASC have those things and they are trying, I says this is a good place to work. EL: What do you enjoy most, about your work here? KK: People. [nodding] That--those days, Nisei, and a lot of Issei was still here, and I could see that history in each people. Each one different, but it' ; s whole thing in one big container! You know, and they are all, so nice! EL: As far as Japanese culture is concerned, within your own family, what were some of the aspects of Japanese culture that you wanted to pass on to your own children? KK: I don' ; t know I could do or not, but uh I don' ; t say that oh flower arrangement, or calligraphy, but one things I regret is the language, I didn' ; t teach them enough. Because I want to learn English first, so I tried talk to them in English. But, I think philosophy, they' ; re Japanese with, with the culture, the spirit, and manners, that kind of things I want them to know. EL: Do you think you' ; ve succeeded? KK: I don' ; t know, but sometime, I used to tell the kids when they do something, " ; You' ; re not supposed to do that" ; , and they say " ; Oh mom so and so does it" ; " ; I don' ; t know about so and so, but you are Kawaguchi, and Kawaguchi don' ; t do that." ; That' ; s, that' ; s what I tell them. EL: I think we need to start wrapping up, so I just have a few final questions. KK: Okay. EL: As someone who has been deeply involved in the Japanese American community for many years, what kind of changes have you seen in the community? KK: Changes, when I came here, the language here, there was a lot of Japanese still, it' ; s Meiji era language. Yeah that changed, but some Nisei and Sansei is, learn from the grandparents or parents still here, but the family is little bit more together in one bundle, each family used to be. Now it' ; s nuclear. Which is okay, and many Japanese have married to the same nationality, to Japanese-Japanese, but now it' ; s American, maybe they' ; re Caucasian, Black people, Spanish, and other Asians, Koreans, Chinese, pretty soon we are not talking about what your nationality is. So that' ; s a good things, then I hope even then I--I hope they keep up some Japanese heart in there. [laughs] EL: What direction would you like to see JASC go in, in the future? KK: Continue th-the way Japanese taking care of the seniors, we always respect the elderly, and their heart. Then um, I think Japanese, it doesn' ; t matter who you marry to, maybe get together a little bit more, because other nationalities like Chinese, Koreans, Filipino, they really keep up their cultures and family together, so if the young people could study a little bit more Japanese, because we missed in between because the war, so catch up a little bit. They can enjoy that culture. EL: What would you most like for future generations to know about you, and your life, and your husband' ; s life? KK: My life? [laughs] I don' ; t know, I was just so lucky, no matter where I go, came to this country, 14 days in a boat, and arrived in San Francisco, at cousin' ; s place and moved to Chicago, I went to flower design school, and start work in the flower shop, and all other place I go, I was so, lucky. Somebody always close to me and help me. So I stopped to think, I say, " ; Oh is that really, life' ; s that hard?" ; Maybe not, if people help me out, so I can help something, somebody, so that' ; s what, in the community is important. You have to have the feelings to each other and help. I was just really lucky. EL: You always come to work with a real sense of purpose. And you always have a smile for me, and for our coworkers, and I would like to know, how do you keep yourself motivated even when things are challenging? KK: No, I just like the people! [laughs] I like dogs too, but I like the people. Yeah, it' ; s so good to communicate, and touch with people. The pandemic has really hurt me, that part. But I' ; m sure that one year not going to change the people' ; s feelings, I miss them a lot. And uh, no, I just like the people. Because they--they smile at me. I' ; m always think about it, it' ; s, other side it' ; s a mirror, if I treat them good, they treat me good. And smile, the government not going to tax me! [laughs] It' ; s free. EL: I think that' ; s a wonderful note to end on, so thank you very much for participating in our oral history project. KK: You' ; re welcome, my pleasure. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawaguchiKayoko20210602.xml
Dublin Core
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Title
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Kawaguchi, Kayoko (6/2/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Kay Kawaguchi, a shin-issei/sansei, describes the pre-war immigration journeys of her family and her husband's family, her husband's experiences while incarerated at Rohwer, and her own experiences in Japan during and after WWII. She also recalls her arrival in the U.S. in 1970 on a temporary visa and the circumstances that led to her eventual marriage and permanent residence in Chicago. A long-time employee at the Chicago Shimpo and the Japanese American Service Committee, she reflects on her community-centered work and shares her hopes for the future.
Date
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2021-06-02
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video
Series: Oral History Project
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54189dc43e5ffbe33a88e56b9185467d
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lincoln, Emma Saito
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lin, Cori Nakamura
Interview Keyword
Yonsei
Cultural Reclamation
Church of Christ Presbyterian
Nikkei Uprising
Activism
Generational Trauma
Healing
OHMS Object Text
5.4 5/19/2021 Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021) 1:05:55 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection OHP Oral History Project Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yonsei Cultural Reclamation Church of Christ Presbyterian Nikkei Uprising Activism Generational Trauma Healing Lin, Cori Nakamura Lincoln, Emma Saito video 1:|21(12)|37(6)|50(10)|69(5)|85(4)|98(8)|110(6)|123(13)|136(14)|149(11)|162(1)|177(7)|190(11)|202(12)|214(11)|228(2)|239(9)|252(8)|265(6)|277(6)|288(8)|299(13)|313(5)|331(3)|350(10)|360(18)|371(5)|381(6)|396(8)|407(6)|418(13)|431(2)|441(8)|456(8)|469(3)|481(15)|492(12)|503(7)|515(14)|528(8)|539(1)|548(15)|560(11)|574(2)|586(8)|596(8)|609(5)|622(13)|633(3)|646(6)|657(16)|669(12)|685(1)|699(3)|713(3)|727(6)|738(6)|752(9)|766(1)|776(14)|792(3)|807(12)|821(2)|833(5)|844(13) 0 https://vimeo.com/558281234/9cbadb46e7 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/558281234?h=9cbadb46e7" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Cori Nakamura Lin is a fourth generation (yonsei) Japanese American born in the Chicago suburbs. In this interview, Cori shares her concept of the river of time, how we can see our present as continuously shaped by multigenerational experiences and events of the past, all interconnected. Cori describes her formative experiences in a Japanese American Christian church, and how growing up with multiracial people in that space helped shape her identity and provided a place of belonging. Cori discusses her experiences supporting social justice movements through art in the Twin Cities and Chicago, such as her work with the group Nikkei Uprising. She stresses the importance of undoing the generational trauma dating back to not only incarceration, but also Imperial Japan, and healing this trauma through community and shared cultural reclamation. Emma Saito Lincoln (EL): Today is May 19th, 2021 and this oral history is being recorded at the Japanese American Service Committee building at 4427 N Clark St in Chicago, IL. The interviewer is Emma Saito Lincoln, and the interviewee is Cori Lin. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the experiences of Japanese Americans in the Chicago area. Welcome, to begin with I have just some background questions for you, so please state your full name. Cori Lin (CL): Hi, my name is Cori Nakamura Lin. EL: And what is your year of birth? CL: I was born in the year of the water monkey, 1992. EL: And where were you born? CL: I was born in a suburban, Chicago hospital. EL: And is the Chicago area also where you grew up? CL: Yes, I grew up in the northwest suburbs in Rolling Meadows area, um yeah. EL: And were your parents and grandparents also born and raised in the Chicago area? CL: So my mother was born in the Chicago area, who is on my Japanese side. My father moved from Taipei when he was around 13, and then eventually moved to the Chicago area. And then my grandparents on both sides were born all over, and then migrated to the Chicago area. EL: So on the Japanese side, approximately when did your family first come to the United States? CL: Yes, so I am a little fuzzy on exact dates, but I know that, so my Japanese family is also mixed. My Okinawan family, which is my maternal grandmother, came from Okinawa around the turn of the century, so in the early 1900s, late 1800s to Hawaii at that time. And my great-grandfather, and my grandma, and her family all lived there until the, after the war. I think in the ni--late 60s my grandmother then moved to Indiana to go to college. My maternal grandfather' ; s side are Japanese and from Hiroshima area and they came to California with my grandfather' ; s dad. And I' ; m not exactly sure what the dates were, but it was probably a little bit in the early 1910s. And my grandfather grew up in Yuba City, and then was incarcerated in Amache, and then eventually after traveling around after the war time, eventually moved to Chicago. EL: Okay, thank you. So when people ask you what generation you are, how do you answer? CL: So I say that I am yonsei, because my, yeah, both the isseis of my family were in California and Hawaii, but then both of my grandparents are nisei. Even though like their siblings, some of them are half-gen, but both my grandparents were born in Hawaii, and then California. So, my mom is a sansei and I' ; m a yonsei. EL: Okay, so what can you tell me about the immigration history on the other side of your family? CL: Yes, so my other side is Taiwanese American. My Taiwanese family had been in Taiwan since I think the early, early 18th century? So they had been there for like a really long time don' ; t quote me on that, the number, but I know that the Lins had been in Taiwan for a long time. The--my ah-gong' ; s family, my paternal grandfather, was a part of like a pretty big established like, family. And then my grandmother married into it and there was a lot of Taiwanese war stuff there also with World War II, and Japan and China, but in the, I think in the 70s, after the Chinese Exclusion Act ended, then my maternal grandmother decided to move the family to America. EL: Okay, thank you. So now we' ; re going to shift a little bit and talk about you? CL: Yeah. EL: --and your direct experiences, and you touched a little bit on where exactly you grew up, but if you could just state again respective to Chicago, the city, where did you grow up? CL: Yeah so I grew up in the northwest suburbs, which is kind of like a first ri--maybe actually second ring suburb of the area. I grew up in Rolling Meadows, which is a small suburb nearby Palatine, Arlington Heights. I usually tell people who live in Chicago that I' ; m out by the IKEA, I tell Japanese Americans that I' ; m out by the Mitsuwa. Yeah, I grew up there after my, my mom and dad had lived in Chicago for a little while when they first got married, but then eventually bought a house and moved to the suburbs where they raised me and my sisters. EL: And how would you characterize that community? CL: The northwest suburbs of Chicago I--are, they' ; re very diverse, but the ones that I grew up were very upper middle class to middle class and majorily white. I went to Fremd, William Fremd High School, which is like a pretty like, high sought after school and school district, so a lot of the Asian folks that are in the area are first- and second- generation Chinese and Korean Americans. I grew up knowing a lot of Asian folks and having lots of East Asian and South Asian folks around, but not many Japanese Americans in the suburb that I was in, and not many folks who had like a longer immigration legacy, like being yonsei. EL: So if you weren' ; t living near or going to school with a lot of other Japanese American people, did you have opportunities to engage with the Japanese American community outside of your hometown or outside of your school setting? CL: Yeah, so well first of all, I was homeschooled up until like 8th grade so I, I wasn' ; t really socializing with anyone like regardless of if they were Japanese or not in a school setting. But my grandparents, when they moved to Chicago and met there, started attending a Japanese American church called Church of Christ Presbyterian, and that' ; s kind of where my mom grew up as her home church in another, in a Japanese American Christian Church environment. And eventually when my father was going to medical school, he joined that church as well, as a Taiwanese American friend, and that' ; s where they met, and they got married. So I grew up also going to that church, is that we would drive into the city to the north park neighborhood every Sunday from the northwest suburbs. And would, yeah, go to church there, where there were a lot of mixed Japanese American families. Like the church was historically JA, but by the time I was around, most of the people there were either half Japanese American, and we would join up with a few other of the Japanese American, historically Japanese American churches, lakeside, and at one point Church of Christ Presbyterian to do church camp every summer, so that was kind of like my social experience. EL: So during your formative years, were you particularly aware of your identity as Japanese American, or as Asian American? CL: Mhmm, so I, I laugh a little bit just because this is a theme that I think about a lot, which is that I ha--was not at all aware of my identity growing up almost even through college. That I have had kind of like two distinct phases that my little sister likes to make fun of me, and calls my Asian puberty, or second Asian puberty, now becoming a third Asian puberty. But because I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of, I would say Asian immigrants but not a lot of Asian Americans I grew up having a very conflated sense of like what it meant to be Asian from a white American lens. Because I was mixed as well, I always had a lot of like contention between being Taiwanese versus being Japanese, and kind of as a kid it turned into this like pan-Asian identity that wasn' ; t really rooted in anything besides just kind of a pride within my immediate family and a sense of being different. So I think I didn' ; t really learn a lot about the history of my family on either sides until college, and then after college. And also thinking about what it means to be an Asian person, and how I' ; ve been racialized took me a really long time to understand. EL: Did you ever have uncomfortable moments in, in your Taiwanese family world with regard to your--the Japanese piece of your identity or vice versa in your Japanese world, Japanese American world, with regard to your, your Taiwanese identity. CL: So it' ; s a interesting question because I think for people who know about the history of Taiwan, are oftentimes very surprised that my, my family exists, and that both sides of the family get along well together. But knowing, and that also kind of confused me too, the more I learned about Taiwan and the Japanese colonization of it. But then, I learned a little bit about my ah-ma' ; s family so my paternal grandmother, and the role that her father took in kind of like af--before and after World War II, where they were a pretty prestigious family. And he was able to learn Japanese, and like my grandmother was born during Japanese occupation so she speaks Japanese? Like when, now even that like lots of my Japanese relatives have forgotten Japanese, my Taiwanese ah-ma is still fluent, and she speaks to my niece in Japanese and stuff. So when my parents got married, that was like the f--one of the first times, and actually I don' ; t know if this is a real story or just a story that I' ; ve been told but this is one of the first times that the families met each other, the Taiwanese side and the Japanese side, and my grandfather' ; s family were kind of like all there, and my grandma' ; s siblings and they were kind of like didn' ; t know how to approach their in-laws now. But then one of my dad' ; s family members was kind of like " ; ...hey" ; and started speaking in Japanese to them, and then like the whole family was like, " ; Oh my God, we all speak Japanese!" ; And then they all started chatting together and, and felt very comfortable. So I think the specific place in time and the position of kind of like pres--prestige that they were able to hold their identities as Taiwanese people on my Taiwanese side, kind of helped them get along with the Japanese family. They also don' ; t really know anything about--or like the Japanese conflict, they didn' ; t know anything about internment, but just ethnically, they got along well. And now, now that I do know all of these histories, I feel like it' ; s more of me kind of like weighing how I feel like my family has reacted to them o--over time. EL: So on that topic of, of learning about these histories that you weren' ; t aware of when you were younger, when did that start to happen and how did you go about learning? CL: So I' ; ve always been interested in culture, and that was something that I remember that I had one class in high school that was called like, " ; Facets of Identity" ; or like, and I just remember we we read " ; A Mirror for Humanity" ; which was like a history book that just kind of like covered different ethnic identities. And I just remember that was like the only time, it-this was like an elective course that I took with Mr. Zacharia, a teacher I really liked, who was a person of color, he was South Asian. And he was the first one who kind of started to talk to me about history from, yeah just like a not white perspective. I had like U.S. history, I had like world history that were all prepped for AP tests and that taught me nothing. So that really peaked my interest, and I was always interested in art and he let me do a lot of art projects to kind of process that history. And that like, now that I think about the artwork that I do like it all kind of starts from that point, where I just had one teacher who is teaching me history from a not white perspective. And so then when I went to school I studied anthropology and studio art, and that was also at a liberal arts school I went to Lawrence University in Wisconsin. And their program was anthropology, where I loved learning about different cultures, and how cultures were formed, and how to kind of like study and research them from a social science perspective. But they didn' ; t give me an understanding of--like it was still from a white lens, this idea that you would go out into another culture and kind of learn about them, and I was always really interested in studying the culture that I was in, and kind of analyzing how that was connecting with other things. So I was able to study my like, ethnicity as a, as a concept through my anthropology program and I remember my senior project was about measuring ethnic, like trying to create a quantification that would measure ethnic identity. Kind of coming from this experience I had in high school where I felt that ethnicity was really fluid and it didn' ; t have to do with, yeah, like it wasn' ; t race, but it was something that was like self-elected. And so that was something that I was given the space to study but even when I look back at that paper, I had focused on Japanese Americans but just like the way that I was trying to quantify it seems so funny to me now ' ; cause it was all, it was also missing this lens of assimilation, and how Japanese folks had been kind of forced to give up their cultural identity. So I, I hadn' ; t included kind of that factor in my study. So I think that the last step of my kind of coming to my Japanese-ness is when I moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota right after school, I was working in a lot of different nonprofits, meeting a lot of people, and the Asian community there really opened their arms to me and accepted me even though I wasn' ; t a part--like I was Japanese and Taiwanese which there aren' ; t a ton of in the Twin Cities. There is a ton of Southeast Asians, lots of Hmong folk, lots of Vietnamese and Cambodian people, and they all kind of accepted me. And through kind of learning from them how they had been fighting for black lives, it really showed me what a kind of like pan-Asian solidarity could really feel like knowing that we all had really different cultures, but that together we do have an identity that we can build on and bring people together and unite with. During the time that I was in the Twin Cities both Jamar Clark and Philando Castile were killed. And so they were murdered by the Minneapolis police, and well Brooklyn Park police too, and so I--or Falcon Heights I guess. But it was really easy to kind of feel a community mourn and grieve and to come together across differences, and I felt really a part of a pan-Asian community there, but then it wasn' ; t until then I finally moved back to Chicago in 2019 that I was able to kind of start, with those tools, start building a community back in Chicago. That we' ; re kind of emulating those same things of building a community across difference, knowing that we have lots of histories and experiences but kind of pushing it towards a shared goal. EL: So if we could maybe, with that in mind, rewind a little bit your high school years and, and maybe what was missing during those years, that looking back you wish you had had in terms of community. How do you, how do you look back on those years now? How do you feel about that? CL: I think about this a lot and I think about it both of what did I need but also what can I build for future generations? Because I think a lot of the things that I need, or that I would have needed like there are things I could have had back then like more curriculum, more discussions about what race and being racialized is. I think less quantifying conversations about blood--like blood quantum in Asian community is also a thing. So I think all of those things would have helped me kind of grow into myself as a child, but basically--when I think about future generations it' ; s like they have so many more opportunities of what they can' ; t have. Because the conversations that we were having about race when I was growing up in the 2000s and the 90s, was nowhere close to what I can even find in like one TikTok right now. So I think there' ; s a lot more possibilities of what we could create, like I think it wouldn' ; t have been really possible for me to have a--a squad of young femmes and gender expansive people who come together and talk about like their different heritages and their cultures and how they use that power. But there' ; s a couple of spaces that I' ; m in now that are for young people, like I think about Radical Monarchs, which is like a " ; Girl Scout Troop" ; but with a social justice lens. And I think about some of the women of color or young girls of color spaces that I' ; ve been a part of and those I feel like have a lot of, so much more potential than what I could have had as a, as a young person. EL: So I also want to touch on what you said about the work you did in college an--and what was missing from that paper about the assimilation element of things. And looking at your own family, at a piece of your own family so your, let' ; s see, your maternal grandfather who was incarcerated, do you see in your own family things that were done or decisions that were made that you would qualify as assimilation? CL: Yes. So that is a question that I have been unpacking I think over the past few years, that when I grew up and I think even when I was in my post-college years in the Twin Cities, I did feel like there was something missing. And sometimes it felt like a disconnection, sometimes it felt like inadequacy. Like why don' ; t I know Japanese? Or--it wasn' ; t even that question it was just like, I don' ; t know Japanese. And as a kid it was always very defensive, that it would be white folks who were trying to connect to me about anime, or it would be other Asian folks who were first or second gen and wanted to connect with me about Asian stuff, or it would be people who are, who like or japanophiles, and who are interested in that. Being like, oh like either they were excited to speak to me in Japanese, or asking me about that, and then I wouldn' ; t know and then that kind of created this dissonance inside of me, between there' ; s this one thing which being Asian is and I am not that. And so it was, it was less of a sense of something missing and more of a sense of being divided and as a, as a young person and as I learned about that history I' ; ve been able to figure out where those come, that divide comes from. Things like talking to my mom very slowly about how her experiences of being Japanese and Asian growing up in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and how she was oftentimes, yeah also felt that way. But in the 60s and 70s when there weren' ; t a lot of other Asian Americans from different backgrounds to kind of trade experiences with or build off of, she often, she told me that going to Hawaii was the only time that she felt normal. And that was something that kind of made sense to me because I never had a place that I felt like normal besides maybe like amongst other mixed JAs. But just knowing that she had that sadness and that kind of isolation made sense to me later in my life. And then of course going back to the history of how my grandfather in that generation came to Chicago and what, how they had to exit camp, and reading the surveys and reading the materials that they were given. Telling them like, " ; Will you not speak Japanese? Will you try to blend into hakujin spaces? Will you not band together, and not have social groups based off of culture together?" ; That made a lot of sense to me and my family how we have both celebrated American-ness and to some degree, white-ness, we conflate those two often times. And then how Japanese-ness is kind of something that belongs in the past. That' ; s kind of how I feel like assimilation was really kind of like, woven into, into my family. But the other thing that I' ; ve been thinking, and this is like a really new thought that' ; s happened in the past year or so since I' ; ve been thinking, trying to learn more about the history even behind incarceration, of Japanese colonialism and imperialism. And this kind of like, knowing how Japanese culture and nationalism kind of created this idea that Japanese folks were better, and then seeing how that traveled through incarceration and that kind of blended into this idea that even though we suffer we' ; re still the best. That' ; s something that is also deep in me both from Taiwanese and my Japanese side and I don' ; t really know how to process through that yet. EL: In your life where you' ; ve been made to feel not Japanese enough or not Taiwanese enough? CL: So there' ; s many spaces, and I talked to a lot of mixed Japanese folks now who didn' ; t have that same kind of like church experience and I did, and something that I realized is like, wow that was a true blessing that I had a community of mixed folks who were both Japanese and something else, Filipino, Taiwanese, Chinese, white, and we were all friends and we grew up together. And that really, really changed I think my experience as much as I have always felt like I wasn' ; t totally Taiwanese, again, don' ; t speak Mandarin, many more Taiwanese folks are first or second generation. But I' ; ve always felt very comfortable being a mixed Japanese person because of that exposure, and so I think there' ; s a lot of superpowers in being mixed, and one of them is sitting at the margins of and the intersections of multiple identities. And I' ; m really excited to think about how Japanese-ness and our values and ethnicity can travel without blood, or with--yeah like it, it doesn' ; t need an amount for it to be real. And so that' ; s something that I feel like being mixed is, is teaching me. EL: Could you talk a little bit more about those experiences within the church, and you' ; ve mentioned church camp. CL: Yeah. EL: And what was that like, what kinds of activities did you do? CL: So there' ; s th--the part of, I talk about church and I do this publicly a lot but it is very personal to me, that I, there' ; s a p--a lot about the church experience that I really cherish. Which was, being mixed, having like, I mean three generations of my family have gone to the same church and even now when I' ; m trying to get involved in Japanese activism, a lot of the times I' ; m finding either historical documents or things that like root back to, to that church. So it--it is a network and it' ; s a hub for me, and I still cherish it as that. At the same time, I' ; ve left the Christian religion and so that is also something that was obviously a huge part of it that I have a little bit more burden with, or I carry a little bit more baggage with. But I have such like fond memories of just being a child and being able to go to sleepaway camp, my cousins would come in from California and they' ; re also mixed Japanese folks and we would all go to camp together. It was a sleepaway camp, play games, do Bible stuff. But you' ; re in a cabin with like four to five other people who are your age and so like, I' ; m still friends with a lot of the people that I went to camp with. EL: So bringing us into more of the present, CL: Mhmm EL: So you went, you went away but stayed in the Midwestern region-- CL: Mhmm EL: for college and then you were in the Twin Cities, and you came back to Chicago. And I, I was hoping maybe you could talk a little bit about what brought you back to Chicago, and how you feel about having returned to where you started. CL: Yes. So I came to Chicago, or returned back for a couple of reasons that are both generational. And I think that that' ; s a theme that I really have been almost like swimming in--I feel like being in Chicago is swimming in the river of time, and I keep using that analogy. So my father was sick all growing up, but his cancer became like deadly in the last, in like 2018-2019. So I was going back and forth a lot and my sister and her husband Aaron got pregnant. So around 2019, both they had my nibling Charlotte and my father passed away. So for those two reasons I was like, just called to be closer with family both to take--yeah be closer to my mom and to be a part of my niece' ; s life. And since then like I had never been a part of a Japanese community and I wasn' ; t anymore a part of the church, so I had kind of been like oh like I' ; m not going to be--like I don' ; t have anything Japanese anymore. Like I remember this like feeling of loss of being like oh like that was a nice thing that I once had and now like what, what do I have now? But then of course like met a few people who were also into like arts and activism stuff. Met some people from JACL and JASC, Lisa Doi and JJ Ueunten and like we were just all visioning the same things. And so we like JJ and Anne Watanabe kind of like pulled together a group of a lot of people who were interested in activism and like yeah really rooting into being Japanese American folks together, and created Nikkei Uprising as it is today. So that' ; s kind of my community now. There' ; s a lot of things that kind of connect to the river of time. Since I' ; ve been in Chicago I' ; ve like worked with the JASC oral history project, I' ; m working with Kat Nagasawa on another project about Japanese American resettlement and then another one that' ; s about redress that Emma is also doing. So besides being involved in kind of these historical pieces, and working on advocacy as a group of Japanese Americans, and then also in my own family really trying to capture stories from my grandfather and my ah-ma on my Taiwanese side bef--as they are getting at the ends of their lives. It feels a lot like sitting in the river of time. I feel like I can see really clear connections between the past and where I am now because of the oral history pieces and the resettlement and redress history and knowing how much it happened here in Chicago. Like in the same spaces and like with the same people that my grandfather knew. And then thinking about like my new gosei nibling Charlotte, and even sitting here doing this history I am imagining just, yeah the future generations who will be able to see it maybe pull the same kind of information that I did from the oral histories that I had listened to from the--yeah people talking about their lives in the ear--like 20s and 30s even. So yeah, river of time! EL: So let' ; s talk about that a little bit more. Your, your involvement in some of these recent projects, and what specifically was your role in the oral history project? CL: So I was acting as an illustrator. I' ; m a visual artist, right now I have the huge privilege of being a full time artist and illustrator, mostly working with community organizations, nonprofits, and doing my own personal work. One with my sister who just got a book who' ; s going to be publishing a series of essays using yokai, so--sorry! That' ; s just to give background to what I' ; m doing. But yeah, one of my big projects is working with Kat Nagasawa, illustrating kind of the history of resettlement and redress. So kind of the--a lot of the history that we have especially from the Japanese American like movement to Chicago is in bits and pieces, and those are really really great for us to dig into but it' ; s hard for people to access the story. So we' ; ve kind of been, I almost feel like historical translators, like picking up the pieces--well, Kat mostly picking up the pieces, figuring out what can really weave together a narrative that' ; s not the whole narrative but gives people an idea of what the full tapestry was. And then it' ; s my--kind of my role to make that exciting and to come alive and make people want to engage with it. EL: How has that work made you feel? CL: I mean it makes me cry like every day. Like so so often I feel extremely like privileged to be in this role as like a storyteller. Yeah I--with the book that my sister is doing too it' ; s, it' ; s going to be pub--my sister, my older sister Jami is a writer and I' ; m an illustrator and we' ; ve been telling stories like to each other and in zines like our whole lives. But recently, I' ; ve been thinking a lot about kind of just all the work that my grandparent' ; s generation and the sansei generation and even like shin-nikkei, everyone have done to lead Japanese Americans to this point where we are extremely, as a whole, stable. I--I' ; ve been reading a lot about my grandparents' ; experiences, a migrant farmer, about people who moved to the South side of the Chicago and were living in Cabrini-Green before they were able to work in factories, and then moved to the north side. And thinking about how they were doing a lot of, a lot of these histories align with different immigrant groups to the US too. Like my grandfather was working alongside Mexican American migrant farmers. And when there was a Japanese community on the South side they were living with black Americans too. But a lot of things, like structural things, allowed them to go to school get the GI bill, they weren' ; t redlined, and allowed them to kind of get education, and led me to be in a place where I grew up in the suburbs, my parents were both college educated and they were able to pay for my college experience so I don' ; t have loans. So all of that feels like a huge, a huge privilege and that' ; s built on generations of, of work. So I think that the reason that I get so emotional about this is because I feel like I' ; ve been like I have a certain skill set, like I went to a really good school district and was able to like develop art skills. And to now u--be able to use that energy and time to kind of shift what I would consider the Japanese American story to be a little bit more expansive of what we consider to be our community, like that feels extremely powerful in this moment. And for me it feels extremely meaningful to feel like the role that I want to have in society and in my community is that of being a storyteller, so I feel like yeah redress the stor--yeah the yokai book, redress, resettlement all of that it--it feels like I get to do that. Like if I was in an olden times, I would really want to be like a traveling bard, and I feel like this is--it' ; s a similar feeling--but just on Instagram. [smiles] EL: Let' ; s talk a little bit more about, about the power of art and, and your involvement with activism, an--and beyond the Japanese American community, you have had the opportunity to use your art in powerful ways, right? So could you describe what some of those experiences are? CL: Yeah, the first few times that I felt like I was able to make art in community and felt like it was making a difference is when I was in the Twin Cities and mostly in South Minneapolis, working in a neighborhood, and that led me to be able to support a lot of housing efforts. So, through like just volunteering and showing up to meetings, and then eventually working with my boss to get an arts grant, I was able to make a lot of art for that movement. Both like doing interviews to interview renters about their experiences with like slumlords and discriminatory housing practices, and then paint their portraits and share those stories in that way. And then also make a mural that is like on the Greenway in South Minneapolis that featured renter stories and then showed some like facts about the housing crisis in Minneapolis. And that was something where making the art wasn' ; t for me, it was for the people that I was interviewing, like I gave them the portraits when they were done, so there was a lot of consultation. In making the mural, I had to talk to hundreds of people with my fellow co-organizer Tori Hong, and that was like my first time of realizing that like art can be a tool, that art is not a product, art is a tool that can shape cities, it can shape hearts and minds, and it can shape a conversation. Like oftentimes people were just kind of stopping by while I was painting, being like " ; What' ; s this about?" ; and I was like " ; Let me tell you about the housing crisis in Minneapolis!" ; But we were able to look at the, the mural while it happened. So that was one of the first things that felt really--that it was, art doesn' ; t belong in a separate space, art is from the community and just belongs within it and that' ; s kind of been what' ; s guided me ever since. EL: Here in Chicago what kinds of activism have you been able to get engaged with? CL: So I' ; ve been in Chicago for, I think I' ; ve almost--one and a half years now...Yes? Yes. I don' ; t know math. And the quarantine has made time seem fully like an illusion. But I first tried to get involved in both pan-Asian organizing and then Japanese American organizing specifically. But Japanese organizing only existed once, once I came here. So I was first starting getting involved with A Just Chi which is a part of Asian Americans Advancing Justice which is a huge Asian American advocacy organization here in Chicago that has networks and hubs all over the country. And that was really great way of getting involved in like local politics and understanding just like how corrupt Chicago is. But then because JJ and Anne pulled this group together, eventually we were working as--first we thought we were Tsuru for Solidarity Chicago, a local branch of the national Tsuru for Solidarity network which also popped up in the last few years as a network of Japanese Americans to support trying to call for the end of the camps at the border that are, you know, separating families. But then eventually it turned into Nikkei Uprising Chicago. So that' ; s just like a small group of us. There' ; s like 15 to 20 people as of right now, and I feel like that is very powerful for me and that' ; s what I would consider like my home, my political home. Because we' ; re not just working on you know, advocacy, we' ; re also working on like building a community and unpacking stuff within ourselves. Something we were able to do was like we' ; ve been showing up to Cook County jail at least a couple of people, one or two members every week, for the past year to support Cassandra Greer-Lee, whose husband Nickolas Lee was one of the inmates who first passed away in Cook County jail after the coronavirus pandemic in 2019 and--or 2020. And so we' ; ve been doing like local stuff like that trying to join that anti-incarceration, down with the prison industrial complex fight. But then also working personally, so we were able to host three sessions that were on Zoom and were able to share them with people across the country, but unpacking Japanese colonialism in Okinawa and US military colonialism, the Japanese colonialism of Hawaii, and then Japanese imperialism as a whole and kind of that, that framework. So those things like that' ; s kind of been helping me figure out more about this assimilation history my family has--my family experienced. And then also kind of like what were these mindsets that we' ; ve adapted even as we were being incarcerated ourselves. Like how this mentality of like, we just need to like put our heads down and fight. Like that is a survival technique, but that' ; s also coming from--that' ; s a trauma response as well. And that' ; s trauma from, I don' ; t know I mean everything, incarceration in the US, but then also from the Japanese government, and how they made their citizens feel about, about themselves as individuals. EL: Do you see reflections of that within your own family? Sort of the intergenerational passing on of trauma? CL: Yes, I--I don' ; t--I feel like the trauma is almost like latent, and like it' ; s hard, it' ; s almost easier for me to talk about these things in, in historical ways than in my own family ' ; cause it' ; s so intangible. I don' ; t see us passing on trauma as strongly as I see us not passing on healing. I think things like--me and my sisters right now we' ; re trying to learn Japanese. And as an adult that comes with a lot of shame, like I have a lot of shame about being bad, bad at the language. But I--I feel like that' ; s the process of me trying to unlearn this, this trauma. And so even if I don' ; t have full language to pass on to the next generation, I will have this kind of like settled-ness within myself that like I' ; m not a bad person for not knowing this. And that' ; s kind of what I consider like passing on a piece of healing. And I, I don' ; t see that--I see that happening now within me in my mother but within my grandfather, I love him and cherish his stories, but some of his lessons I--are harder for me to process in this day and age. I feel like a lot of the way that my grandfather decided to--or had to survive incarceration was by celebrating America and the American government. And deciding that he--and he' ; s told me this even recently, just about how he respects you know all the leaders of the country and doesn' ; t feel like we should oppose presidential decisions or even presidents or, because they are you know for my grandfather ordained by God, like decided being a part of his plan, but then also just like as you know they are the moral authority and they are the authority and that' ; s something that we should follow. And that is not something that, that I believe o-or share. And so I think the idea that what the U-United States did was not just wrong and not just a mistake that they had to apologize for, but also is a--the incarceration of the JAs was just a pattern of how the United States works as a settler colonial project. That they, I mean the United States is built on stolen land and when they incarcerated the Japanese Americans my grandfather was put on the stolen land of indigenous people who had been already forcibly removed. So I think that' ; s kind of the pattern of healing that we ne--we, I would like my family to address that more of being like this was not just a mistake, this was kind of how America works. And that it can' ; t be healed by an apology, it can' ; t be healed by Americ--or by Japanese people becoming Americans. I think that' ; s something that I see being passed on, is that if we' ; re accepted, then we' ; ll be good, and then we' ; ll be healed, and I, I don' ; t think so. EL: How do you, how do you find that very delicate balance between loving your grandfather and respecting him, and, and respecting what he' ; s been through in his life, but also holding these very different and, and valid views on, on how our country works and how the world works? Is that difficult sometimes when you' ; re having conversations with him? CL: It' ; s difficult in, in conversations. Cognitive dissonance is a miracle worker in letting me hold multiple of these, these ideas together. I think also too, there' ; s something about when I' ; m with my grandparents and my family all together, like I do become a child. Like when I sit here I can feel like I' ; m like yes, like I' ; m 28 like I have solid ideas. But you know when you' ; re back there I just fall into old patterns and it' ; s easy just to listen and be like, " ; Yup, you' ; re never going to change your mind about some things." ; Which I think is fine and healthy, ' ; cause I can' ; t change people, but I can change what I do and how I feel like I should shape you know, the river of time that I' ; m sitting in. And doing things like this, like I didn' ; t really want to be recorded because it didn' ; t feel like I was historical. But then after participating in my grandfather' ; s too I was like " ; Yeah, like I do want to share." ; I think what I see is needed for the future or what I would like our incarceration story to be because I think it is really powerful. But I feel like I' ; m one--I' ; m two stepping stones further in the river of time than my grandfather is so I have a totally different perspective. But I think that that, again, the river of time helps me understand that like everything that he did and even his positions that I disagree with are influencing me to be who I am today. EL: When you were talking about Nikkei Uprising, you mentioned that it' ; s not just the activism work that matters but also what you as a community are forming for yourselves. And I' ; d love to hear more about that, and also I' ; m wondering does that help you grapple with the intense frustration that it--that you must feel sometimes if you' ; re engaged in activism in the United States in 2021. CL: Yes, so I feel like the personal work is more important than the activism work. And I feel like they have to go hand in hand because there is urgent stuff happening right now that we need to do for sure. But I guess I--because of seeing how much change has happened between the last few generations and now, I feel really really confident that it' ; s not just the big stuff that we do, it' ; s the generational change that can make lasting lasting impact. Because I--and yeah I' ; m still in awe of the fact that growing up in the early 2000s the idea that there could be a movement of Japanese Americans who are willing to say something like the government is doing things that are not great, or that the police shouldn' ; t be killing people on the street. Like that seems incomprehensible to me that, that we could have a movement of Japanese Americans who are coming together for abolition right now. Like the New York Day of Remembrance, Nikkei Uprising, and Tsuru for Solidarity coordinated a national nikkei abolition study group and there' ; s over 100 people who came to their first session. So that feels like amazing. But this study group in of itself is it' ; s like we' ; re moving people towards action, but it is towards unpacking all this stuff. Like all this stuff I' ; ve been talking about like the language, shame, guilt, feeling like I need acceptance but not knowing from where it is, that' ; s the kind of stuff that I really want to heal in our community. And I feel like art can help do that, having community connections can do that, but really just conversations and like one-on-one connections. Like every time I talk to a mixed person who feels like they' ; re not Japanese enough and I tell them " ; No! We are Japanese like we can be Japanese and you can claim things. You can be--you don' ; t have to do any of these things to be who you are." ; I feel like that is powerful work that will--can resonate into the future. I just feel like the-there' ; s so many small things that I see, that I' ; m finding in historical documents where I' ; m like " ; Wow I never knew that this thing happened but I can feel it, because of the way that it shifted the community." ; EL: On that concept of reclaiming, and you' ; ve talked already about language and trying to learn Japanese now as an adult. Are there other, other aspects of Japanese culture that you' ; ve made efforts to reclaim? CL: There' ; s a few so one is like, I think ancestor honoring is one of those, like my father passed and without Christianity I was kind of struggling with how do I grieve? And how do I keep his memory alive? And so I now have a little altar. I kind of tried to model it off of my Buddhist altar where she' ; s like not totally practicing Buddhist but she just you know has an altar. And so that' ; s one thing. I' ; m trying to learn about aspects of Shintoism. Shintoism without the burden of Japanese nationalism behind it, to think about kind of the connection to earth and getting to know the land, and how people in Japan and Okinawa did know the land. Just history is a huge part too. I think just learning more about like what Japanese did to Okinawa really helps me kind of understand the culture, both of Japan and of Okinawa more. And holidays! Like things like I was really involved in the--my Christian church but we didn' ; t participate in a ton of other Japanese American community stuff. Like we would go to obon sometimes at Mitsuwa, but now like I helped work on the anniversary T-shirts for the Midwest Buddhist Temple' ; s Ginza holiday and they' ; ve been doing that for 70--65 years so I--my family had never gone before, but after the pandemic we' ; re hoping to start going to those. And yeah just things like being in community with other Japanese people was not an intention that I had in my life. I think I, sometimes I was like I want to be an artist, and then at certain points I was like I want to be Asian, and at some points I was like I want to know people who are not white, but this is the first few years where I was like I' ; m really looking for intentional Japanese American community, and that in itself is a reclamation. EL: What would you like to see all of us doing in the Chicago Japanese American community to achieve that goal? CL: I really like this question. And I have a lot of dreams for us, I do. I would like Japanese Americans to, to take it slow. I feel like if we can commit not just to, I think there' ; s a lot of pushes right now for--to how to act in solidarity, how to act in solidarity with black lives, how to act in solidarity internationally with these things. And I think those are really, really important and I' ; m listening and practicing them, but I think I would also like us to think about the, yeah kind of like the inner feelings. The shame, the guilt, the needing of acceptance that I feel like have really been passed down through incarcera--like that' ; s what I feel like the legacy of incarceration is now. And feeling like we don' ; t align with other Asian communities that might have either newer immigration histories, or don' ; t have incarceration histories. And I feel like if we can work through those things generationally, like that' ; s what I want for us in Chicago. The other thing that I have that' ; s a recent plot plan is I would love, and I don' ; t have to lead this, anyone in the future you can also take this on, is I would love for us to have a new camp. And I' ; ve been thinking about this as someone who loved church camp but is no longer in the church. I would really love for us to have a Japanese American camp that has a mixed identity lens, that has a social justice community-centered lens, that could bring people together from the coasts and from the Midwest. And it could be in you know, the southwest-like area so it could be like literally in the same areas that ancestors were held. But like shin-nikkei and everyone could come too, and for Japanese American people to have a chance to have that normalized mixed experience to have a little bit of history, and ceremony, and practice doing together but just really be in community together. I think that the thing that I see my cousins who are mixed on the coast have is a sense of normalcy. But I see the thing that me and my sisters have which, who are very Midwest and also mixed, is that we have a sense of urgency and community and necessity. Like th-th-the idea of keeping Japanese-ness alive is very much more important to us because it feels more fleeting. And I think that those two things coming together would be really powerful for us to have a sense of normalcy and a sense of the need to conne--connect our communities together. And then in the future when the gosei and the rokusei say that they went to camp, it would mean something different than what the nisei and the issei meant. So, that' ; s my grand proposal, if I have time when I' ; m 50, I' ; m going to try to start this camp. [laughs] EL: And do you view that camp as being more like your summer camp and for, for children and teens or as an intergenerational ' ; for everyone' ; kind of experience? CL: I think the thing that was special about the camp, Chi-KO and Teen Camp, that I went to was that it was for the kids, but it was intergenerational. The high school students went to Teen Camp, the college and young adults were the counselors, the adults had you know other way--like were also counselors or Bible leaders or whatever leadership stuff and then the families were like bringing children. So it really became something, like it was focused on the youth but all generations were a part of it. And I feel like that is something that I love about small communities, church communities, faith communities that I would like non-faith communities to build and have as well. Oh, and also that the camp, like I would love for this one to be that like you can learn anything. Like I think that that' ; s something, like I have, you know JA friends who are scientists and engineers who want to teach stuff like my friends are like artists, and like writers and creatives and like t--and also people who have practical skills around you know, how to organize in your schools, how to build community and start a club, all that kind of stuff I think I would like young people to have. EL: That' ; s a beautiful concept. I' ; m curious, because you mentioned you know, one possibility could be, could be in the southwest or could be on a site that had been used for incarceration have you yourself or has anyone in your family been on a pilgrimage? CL: So my little sister did the Kansha project through the Japanese American Citizens League, so she went on a, like did I think it was like a weekend of like community building and then they traveled and did a pilgrimage to Manzanar where they laid cranes, and then went to Little Tokyo in Japantown, or no in LA. So that was kind of like the, with another group of Japanese Americans, and I really love that ' ; cause it helped my little sister get really like grounded in the history and build community as well. I was too old to go on that program, but my family I think in 2018 did go on our own little trip, where we went to Granada, Colorado to visit the Amache incarceration site which is not as preserved as Manzanar but still has you know, the bunk and the guard tower and everything. So we brought my nibling there and my brother-in-law and we--like as a family just like drove around the site, and we like tried to walk to the site where my grandfather' ; s like barrack would have been, and it' ; s like all grown over now in the desert. But it' ; s it-it was powerful in just being like, they were really just out here in nowhere. And like they tell me about growing s-- like trying to grow stuff and like having food and like I don' ; t know everything being dusty. It w-- just seeing it, and it really makes me feel like yeah, they were really surviving in the desert even though they weren' ; t being you know, brutalized with violence, yeah everything was taken away. EL: What kinds of expectations did you have as you were embarking on that trip, and did it live up to those expectations? CL: I don' ; t know what my expectations were, I think it was powerful to do it with family, like with my mother and my-my sisters and our, you know the next generation, my Charlotte, my nibling. I feel like it' ; s, if anything, going there helps build a memory for me. Like I don' ; t think I got a good idea of-- besides like the natural environment, what grandfather lived through, like I feel like that' ; s more of like history and reading the--listening to the oral histories. But it' ; s something that I, a memory that I have from when I was like 27, so that now in the future, when my memories are less good or maybe when I have forgotten, like I can definitely still remember standing there. And I can remember seeing the guard tower, and I have the photo of me and my family there. So I think if anything, the pilgrimage is like a way to kind of bring these stories one step into the future. EL: I' ; m wondering, you' ; ve talked a lot about healing and of course that' ; s an ongoing process, but what for you personally have been some of the most effective sources of healing? CL: Mmm, I think, I have two sisters, my older sister is three years older than me and my younger sister is three years younger than me, and we' ; re-- now as adults very close. And I think that our sister chat is one of the most healing things that, that I have because it' ; s just like a processing space. And I know that other people don' ; t always have people who are-- have-- who share such similar histories as we do, but it' ; s someplace that I can go to be like here' ; s what I' ; m learning from history overall, here' ; s what I' ; m learning from my family' ; s history, here' ; s what I' ; m feeling and living in my everyday life, and like here' ; s what I feel like is emotionally blocking me. Like my therapy stuff. And all of those four together I can talk about. And I feel like that' ; s really where I' ; ve been finding a good site of healing. And so it' ; s not just the sister chat it' ; s also with Nikkei Uprising folks, it' ; s also with just friends, it' ; s also with other folks from different Asian diasporas. But where I can talk about the personal and the political together, and how that' ; s like mixing in my body, that feels like where I' ; m finding the most amount of healing. EL: And, what gives you hope? CL: I heard a quote recently and I' ; m going to have to remember-- I feel-- I don' ; t remember who the poet is but it' ; s a Chicago poet, I' ; ll look it up and then we could add it to the notes later. But the quote said, " ; Children are the world' ; s ability to begin again and again." ; And that has been sitting with me very powerfully as I see my nibling Charlotte being raised. She' ; s like a generation where, like, she' ; s even more mixed that I am, like her, her father is like Jewish-German heritage, and then also Okinawan-Japanese-and-Taiwanese. But my mother is babysitting her a lot, and they' ; re-- she' ; s speaking to her almost like entirely in Japanese at this point, so Charlotte' ; s being raised with like a lot of Japanese language, and she can read and she' ; s excited. And she can talk to my ah-ma now a little bit and they speak to each other in their little baby Japanese. And I' ; m just thinking about how powerful it is that she' ; s growing up after we' ; ve kind of processed all this incarceration trauma. Like my sister is telling her these things as a 2-year-old now whereas like I-- was like-- I don' ; t know, we didn' ; t even talk about camp until I was like in high school! So I feel like, that is giving me a lot of hope that like, yes it' ; s really hard because the world is very traumatic and fu-- like on top of so many bad things to heal through that. But like, Charlotte hasn' ; t experienced any of those bad things, and if we can like give it to her and like explain to her without building more personal trauma for her, that' ; s so powerful! Like, a young person who doesn' ; t have the years of assimilation trauma? Tha-- like I don' ; t even know who I would be if I didn' ; t have that now. EL: As we wrap this up, I' ; d like for you to-- you' ; ve touched on it already but I' ; d like for you to, to address again your motivations for participating in this oral history project, CL: Yeah [nodding] EL: an-- and maybe if you could connect it to the experience of sitting in on your grandfather' ; s interview CL: Oh yeah [nodding] EL: as well, and your experience assisting with transcriptions of other interviews ' ; cause it' ; s a-- I think it' ; s all tied together. CL: Yeah, okay I might need more prompting on that question, but I think the fi-- the, my motivations for this, for participating are that I would now like to contribute to the river of time. When, I think even last year I had thought about the oral histories as remembering something from the past, and I kind of forgot that the present is the past of the future. And so I feel like even though I' ; m not historically significant, I feel like I' ; m participating really actively in the present. And so that is kind of what I want to, to pass on. It too, like I do feel like it' ; s really historical what Nikkei Uprising, Nikkei Resistors, JAs for Justice, Tsuru for Solidarity, New York Day of Remembrance, all of these national nikkei orgs who are now connected, the fact that we are connected, the fact that we' ; re doing stuff, like that feels a little bit historical for me so I wanted to get that on the record. EL: And then, the experience of sitting in on your grandfather' ; s interview an-- and how that connects to doing-- deciding to do your own? CL: Yes, I really appreciated sitting on my grandfather' ; s interview and I think it helped me see the-- yeah maybe the significance of my family' ; s story. Like it doesn' ; t, it doesn' ; t feel particularly like power-- like I don' ; t feel like there' ; s any particular lessons to pull from it. But I think that I, I guess I saw how his life has been woven into the Chicago JA history, pretty like, yeah like integratedly. And it helped me pull together other pieces of the network. That is--the other thing that besides the river of time, the other analogy that I am focused on is like the mycelium network, like the idea that like mushrooms all have these like tiny roots that go underneath the, the ground and it' ; s just one cell at a time that is creating this connected network that fuels the whole forest. And that' ; s really how I feel like the JA community works right now, or it works over time, is that it' ; s just one person talking to one person and then they pass along the information, or they pass along a call to action, or they pass along food to give to someone' ; s cousin. Like that' ; s how the JA community taught me how to take care of community, and I think through the oral histories you can kind of see that happening even if you can' ; t experience it. EL: Thank you, is there anything else that you would like to have on the record for future generations to hear? CL: I think the, the last thing that I think I would just want to say is that our concept of what it means to be Japanese has shifted so drastically from the time that we came as formerly Japanese people or people who lived in the country of Japan to where I am right now. And the concept of being Asian is already changing throughout my lifetime, and so I see a lot of potential in that, and I hope that people are actively shaping what that means in the future. To be actively shaping what it means to be Japanese American. I think before, when I was growing up, there was really a concept of being similar to what is in Japan, carrying the cultures and traditions that had been in Japan, and having the blood, like your parental genealogy. Those were all what it meant to be Japanese. And now I' ; m seeing those all as being--especially the, the blood quantum idea, I would like us to move away from. Like, I' ; ve stopped saying that I am half-Japanese and half-Taiwanese and I' ; ve started saying that I' ; m just mixed. And, yeah, I feel like there is a lot more potential in that, and I don' ; t think race is real, so cool. [laughs] EL: I think maybe we can end on that note. Thank you so much for participating. CL: Thank you! Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinCori20210519.xml LinCori20210519.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Oral+History+Project& ; layout=1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/2735" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Lin, Cori Nakamura (12/15/2022)</a><br /><br />Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/5" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Nakamura, Tom (3/16/2021)</a>
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Lin, Cori Nakamura (5/19/2021)
Description
An account of the resource
Cori Nakamura Lin is a fourth generation (yonsei) Japanese American born in the Chicago suburbs. In this interview, Cori shares her concept of the river of time, how we can see our present as continuously shaped by multigenerational experiences and events of the past, all interconnected. Cori describes her formative experiences in a Japanese American Christian church, and how growing up with multiracial people in that space helped shape her identity and provided a place of belonging. Cori discusses her experiences supporting social justice movements through art in the Twin Cities and Chicago, such as her work with the group Nikkei Uprising. She stresses the importance of undoing the generational trauma dating back to not only incarceration, but also Imperial Japan, and healing this trauma through community and shared cultural reclamation.
Date
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2021-05-19
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video
Series: Oral History Project
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Doi, Lisa
Interview Keyword
Fukuoka
Stockton
Crystal City
National Japanese American Student Relocation Council
Tanforan
Rohwer
Department of Justice
FBI
Hyde Park
Woodlawn
Midwest Buddhist Temple
Ginza Festival
Ho Etsu Taiko
Evanston
Japanese American Citizens League
Kansha Project
Yonsei
REgenerations Oral History Project
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/6/2019 Doi, Elizabeth (9/6/2019) 1:30:00 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Fukuoka Stockton Crystal City National Japanese American Student Relocation Council Tanforan Rohwer Department of Justice FBI Hyde Park Woodlawn Midwest Buddhist Temple Ginza Festival Ho Etsu Taiko Evanston Japanese American Citizens League Kansha Project Yonsei REgenerations Oral History Project Doi, Elizabeth Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/601195037/d504e5790d Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/601195037?h=d504e5790d" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Lisa Doi is a multiracial fourth generation (Yonsei) Japanese American, born in Chicago and raised in Evanston, Illinois. Lisa discusses her maternal family's roots in Japan, immigration history, wartime experiences of incarceration at Santa Anita and Rohwer, resettlement in Chicago, and community life in Chicago to the present day. This interview reflects her mother's experience growing up in Hyde Park, on Chicago's South Side, as well as Lisa's own experiences growing up in Evanston with a variety of connections to Japanese American community life. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 This is an interview with Lisa Doi as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on September 6th 2019 at 9:20 AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Lisa Doi is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name? Lisa Doi: 00:00:31 Hi, my name is Lisa Doi. AT: 00:00:33 And uh, where and when were you born? LD: 00:00:36 I was born in Chicago, I guess, although I grew up in Evanston, August 23rd, 1991. AT: 00:00:43 Oh, happy birthday. LD: 00:00:45 [laughs] Thank you. AT: 00:00:47 Um, you said 91? LD: 00:00:48 91. AT: 00:00:49 Okay. Um, cool. And then, uh, can you tell me about where your, where and when your parents were born? LD: 00:00:57 My mom was born also in Chicago in March of 1953 and my dad was born in San Diego, California in January of 1952. AT: 00:01:09 Okay, cool. And, um, so like I mentioned, um, just for this oral history, we'll be, um, interested in hearing about your family's background and sort of their trajectory, um, pre-war and during the war. Um, so I guess, uh, with that, could you just tell me, um, what you know about, um, I guess it would be your mom's family's background, where, who came to the states first and kind of that sort of, um, part of your family history? LD: 00:01:45 Yeah, so my paternal, or sorry, my maternal grandfather's family, uh, was originally from Hiroshima, Japan and I don't really know a lot about how, how or when they came to the United States. Um, I'm guessing in the late 1800s or early 1900s and they came to Stockton, California. I know my great grandfather was a barber and had a barbershop in Stockton. Um, I don't know if my great grandmother ever had a job. On my maternal grandmother's side, her family came from around Fukuoka in Japan and we've, well, we've visited both of their, you know, family homes in Japan. Um, but I know my great grandfather was from a very wealthy family and was the first born son, so he stood to gain a lot of money, but he, um, what I've heard about why he came to the United States with the, he was trying to dodge the draft for the Russo-Japanese war and, uh, so he came to the United States for a little bit, sort of gambled away all his money and his father made him a deal that was like, we'll pay off your debts, but in exchange you give up your rights to inherit, sort of, all this wealth. So he took the deal. Um, so I also have heard that they originally were in Portland and sort of working on like a fruit orchard or hod to fruit orchard and he lost that as well. And so they sort of slowly made their way to Southern California and ended up in the, in the LA area. AT: 00:03:24 Um, do you have any idea, um, how his family had acquired wealth or? LD: 00:03:32 I've heard that they were a Samurai family, so I don't really know exactly what that means or why you would get wealth from that. But we've seen their house from like the 1400s. It's this absolutely beautiful, historic Japanese home. And I also know that on the estate are these very rare trees. And so on occasion in recent history, they've cut down trees to sell. AT: 00:03:57 Wow. Um, okay, so that was, um, can you clarify, sorry if- LD: 00:04:07 That was my mom's, mom's dad. AT: 00:04:10 Okay. Um, so he made his way down to Southern California. Um, and then, um, do you have any sense of like what time that would put us at? LD: 00:04:26 Um, so I think, so at that point he had kids and so my grandmother is the second youngest of five kids. Um, so she was, uh, she was born in Portland, um, and she was born in the, I think 1926, so I would guess that was the mid 1930s is when they went from Portland to LA. AT: 00:04:48 Okay. Um, and then, yeah. Can you, if you're able to, can you kind of just keep going on like we're um, I guess maybe we can go like up until more time, like what either family was doing respectively. LD: 00:05:05 Yeah. So I believe that that great-grandfather owned a Chinese restaurant where that's what he was doing in LA. He worked in a Chinese restaurant. Um, my great, I'm sorry, not my great grandmother. My grandmother went to LA City College for some period of time before the war started and I know my grandfather was at UC Berkeley and he was going into his senior year of college when the, or he was, I guess in the middle of his senior year of college when the war started. I don't really know much else about them. Um, one of my great uncles had joined the US army before the war started. Um, and so I've always been interested in sort of what happened to him. Was he allowed to stay in the military? Was he kicked out for a period of time before he was able to rejoin? Um, but that's, I think all I really know about any of my family before the war. AT: 00:06:00 Okay. Um, thank you. That's, I mean, that's, that's a lot of information to have. Um, um, okay, so your grandparents were, you said they were in school when the war broke out. Um, do you know what, you know, what sort of happened to them or, or what the timeline was as far as, um, you know, I guess the bombing of Pearl Harbor to like executive order and evacuation. Do you know what happened to both of their families? LD: 00:06:34 So, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I know that my grandfather's father was arrested by the FBI. Um, he had been involved and as in my grandfather had been involved in martial arts. Um, I think it was Kendo, but they may have been involved in other martial arts. So sort of as a community leader, as a, as a teacher at whatever Dojo he was involved in. Um, my great grandfather was, was arrested. He was taken both to New Mexico and Crystal City. Um, my grandfather, I would describe him as a hustler, a as sort of a lifestyle. Um, I'm not entirely sure how he managed to do this, but he, so he was, uh, going into, or he was in the middle of his senior year at Berkeley when the war started and he, um, transferred to Washington University in St Louis. So he went to assembly center. But he, before the NJSRC was established, he was part of a small number of students who got like special permission to go to go to college. So that's how he got out of assembly center. He never went to one of the WRA camps and then he came to the Midwest because of that. AT: 00:07:44 Um, can you define the acronym of NJSRC? LD: 00:07:49 NJSRC? Yeah. Uh, let me see if I can get it. Okay. So my grandfather was able to start college before the National Japanese American student Relocation Council was established. Ultimately they would be the group that would work with colleges to help students transfer or help students enroll. Um, but he was able to do that kind of transfer before they were formed. So it was maybe a group of 10 students who started Wash. U. With him around the same time. AT: 00:08:17 Okay. Um, and so that was, um- LD: 00:08:22 So it would have been early 1942. AT: 00:08:28 Okay. Um, and then for your grandmother's side, um, she was in school as well? LD: 00:08:41 Yeah. So my grandmother just stopped going to school when the war started. Um, she eventually became one of the, you know, Nisei who received a diploma from the California State system, um, in this ceremony of like all older Nisei in the mid-2000s. So it's very cute photos from, um, but she never went back to finish after that. AT: 00:09:08 Um, which assembly center did your grandfather go to and his family? LD: 00:09:15 Which one? It's the one right by the, S, San Francisco airport. There's The P, um, and I'm totally blanking on it. It's a shopping mall now. I've driven past it, AT: 00:09:27 Oh, okay. LD: 00:09:27 Um, and I don't remember, um. AT: 00:09:31 I don't know it off hand. LD: 00:09:33 Uh, that's gonna bother me. AT: 00:09:35 The only one that I know with the P is the one that I can't pronounce. LD: 00:09:39 Puyallup? Puyallup. I can't pronounce that one. Maybe it's not maybe ut didn't start with a P, but uh, no. Okay. So my grandfather and his family were, were taken to Tanforan, which is near San Francisco. And my grandmother, um, and her family were taken to Santa Anita in Southern California. And then actually all their families went to Rohwer after that. But my grandfather didn't go with them, so they did not meet until they came to Chicago. AT: 00:10:05 Because he was in, he was at Wash. U.? Okay. Um, let's see. So, um, you're grandma. Okay. So they were both, you know, they were young people at the time also with like the ability to like kind of play around with those weird flex work leave rules or, or indefinitely even and things like that. Um, well I guess, uh, first I, I want to ask, um, about the size of each family. Like, did they have, um, siblings or parents who are, you know, still in kind of the standard camps? LD: 00:10:49 So my grandmother had four siblings and two parents who went to camp. Well, she had four siblings. One of them was in the U.S. Army before the war started. And I don't believe he went to assembly center or camp with them. Um, but his fiance did, or his girlfriend did. Um, so she went with three of her siblings and her two parents. My grandfather had two siblings and I just learned that, that his parents very late in life had another baby. Um, so they had a baby who was born and died in 1942. Um, my mom said it was before they went to assembly center. Um, but they would have been in their forties when they had this baby, which I thought was interesting. Um, so he, his father was taken by the FBI, so he went to a Department of Justice Camp. So my grandfather went to assembly center with, um, his sister, his brother and his mom. And actually he went with, uh, the Chikurishi family as well. That, uh, both of those, the heads of both of those households were both taken by the, uh, FBI. The Chikurishis had already lost their mom. And so even though they were all in their late teens and early twenties, what I've heard is that my great grandmother acted as the head of household for her children as well as the Chikurishi children. AT: 00:12:16 Wow. Um, alright. And then, so from, from Tanforan and Santa Anita, um, the two families both went to Rohwer, you said, um, and do you have a sense of how long they might've been in Rohwer? LD: 00:12:42 I've recently looked at their final accountability rosters, but I can't off the top of my head. Remember how long they were in Rohwer. I know that my great grandmother died in Rohwer. She went into Rohwer already having, I think stomach cancer and she died, I believe it was September of 1943 and I know, or may have been late August of 1943 and by that time I know my grandmother and one of my great uncles had already received clearance to come to Chicago. Um, so I believe my great uncle received clearance from May or June of that year, and then my grandmother in July or August of 1943. And so I, I just think about how hard it must have been to leave your mother knowing that this was probably the last time you were going to see her, but sort of making that choice to try to go to Chicago and sort of start a life outside of camp. AT: 00:13:46 Um, and just to clarify, was this year your grandmother's or your? LD: 00:13:53 My grandmother's mother. AT: 00:13:55 Grandmother's. Okay. Yeah. Um, and um, and then as far as your, your grandfather's family side, um, so he had the two siblings, the one and, and his mom. Yeah. Um, so do you have any sense of how long they were in Rohwer? LD: 00:14:19 I don't know how long my grandfather's family was in Rohwer. I do know that my grandfather's brother joined him in St Louis and that from St Louis, the two of them came to Chicago and then his mother, father and sister also came to Chicago. AT: 00:14:38 Okay. Um, and then before getting into some of the, um, whatever, and, you know, so many details, this is awesome. Um, but before, um, uh, uh, like hearing more about Chicago, I'm wondering if, um, as far as like family stories or just kind of like family knowledge of, of your own history, are there any particular stories or memories, you know, obviously not your own personal memories, but, um, stories that have been passed down about, um, either like assembly center or camp life or maybe just even evacuation in general. Like what, what are some of the, what's some of the, um, the stories that have been handed down to you, if any? LD: 00:15:31 Yeah. You know, I, not a lot of stories have been handed down to me about what day to day life in camp was like. My grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's when I was in elementary school. And so I always, or if I were to describe this, I would say that we passed each other cognitively. By the time I could have asked her and understood her stories, she no longer could tell them to me. But I've recently heard a few stories, um, from my mom, one of which is that she, um, my grandmother evidently was a very feisty child. And so much so that at one point her parents thought about sending her to Japan, um, to sort of reform her, I guess, or like keep her in line or, or she was just too much for them to handle maybe. Um, and uh, so sort of in that similar vein, I've heard that she was just really angry when she went to camp. Um, that she was just very, very upset about the whole situation and not just like a sad, kind of upset of defiant and angry kind of upset. Um, and it's interesting because I don't feel like I knew her as that kind of a person. Um, my mom also said that she, her mom told her that on the day that her, this is a lot of moms. So my mom told me that when my grandmother, on the day that my great grandmother died, my grandmother woke up in the middle of the night and sort of like had this premonition that she sort of knew that her mom had passed away even though her mom was still in Arkansas and she was in Chicago. LD: 00:17:15 And I also would say I'd never really imagined my grandmother is sort of a spiritual person. And so that was a really surprising story to sort of hear this very haunting tale of, of her having this sense that her, her own mother had passed away. Um, and then this is not a story that has been passed down, but in my, in my whole life of knowing my grandfather, he always sort of wore a very similar outfit every day. He always wore wingtip loafers and like dress slacks and a sweater and like a camel hair jacket. And so to me, which is kind of a retro kind of retro style, so I just have this very strong like imagination of him going to assembly center in Wingtip loafers and sort of like sinking into the mud. Um, and as much as he was a hustler, he was also like a very prideful person maybe to a f- in to the extent that that was even a bad character feature. Um, and so what would it have done to someone who had like such a sense of self and such a sense of pride to sort of be put in this experience? Um, that to me is really it, I can sort of imagine the pain that he might have felt and I just see this like muck sinking around his shoes in my, in my imagination of it. AT: 00:18:41 Um, okay. Just to get us back on track as far as trajectory and then, and then we'll, we'll dig into memory stuff. Um, so, um, so at a certain point, um, both your grandmothers and grandfathers families had ended up in Chicago. Um, uh, if you had to, if you know, great. And if you had to guess like dates that they were, the families had arrived and it sounds like it was a pretty typical thing where it's like one person came and then the rest of the family joined. Do you have a sense of that? Of when, when people were arriving to Chicago? LD: 00:19:38 So I think both my grandmother and grandfather were amongst the first in their families to come to Chicago. And I would guess that they both came in the summer or fall of 1943. Um, I know my grandfather eventually got it back to like, it, his, weird story. Um, so he, he attended Wash. U. as a student, but he also got a teaching position at Wash. U. teaching Japanese. Um, and so then he also came to the University of Chicago and taught Japanese, um, potentially as part of the military language school. But I've never been super clear on that. But he eventually got a job at the University of Chicago, so he moved to Hyde Park, um, with his brother. And I don't, my, for, my grandmother, it was her brother who first came to Chicago. I don't know why he came to Chicago or what he initially did, but they also moved to Hyde Park. AT: 00:20:38 Um, and, um, again, like back to like family narrative and like anything, um, that you heard growing up or, or maybe later on in life. Um, like what was, what was the narrative after moving to Hyde Park? Like what, um, yeah. Where did, where does the story continue as far as what you have as a fourth generation? LD: 00:21:16 Yeah, so after my family came to Chicago, my grandfather, um, somehow started working for a card making company and that's where he met my grandmother. He, I don't think he owned the card making company, but he was like in management there. And my grandmother worked sort of as just sort of a general worker. I don't know if she was designing or packaging cards. Um, but that's where they met and they were both living on the south side. My grandmother's family ended up buying an apartment building, um, that they managed and they manage that into the 60s, maybe even into the 70s. Um, and. AT: 00:21:58 Did they have a name for the apartment building? LD: 00:22:01 I don't know if it had a name and I don't know if it was, you know, it was like a six flat or something. I don't think it was huge. You know, I think it was a few units. Um, and honestly, I don't know much until my mom was born. Um, in 1953, um, the apartment building was in Woodlawn. And when my mom was born, they lived in South Shore for a few years. Um, I know that my mom, when my mom was born, they lived very close to my grandmother's brother. Um, two of my grandmother's brothers lived in the same neighborhood. And so, um, when they were little, you know, the kids grew up together. Um, but then probably by 1957, my mom and her parents had moved into Hyde Park proper from South Shore. So they moved from about 72nd street to 57th street. AT: 00:23:01 Um, do you have any idea what did, um, were your grandparents continuing with card company or had jobs kind of shifted that you know of? LD: 00:23:10 I don't know what my grandparents were doing at that time. I know that there was a period of time where my grandmother was, stayed at home with her kids. Um, my grandfather to my understanding has sort of had a series of like entrepreneurial engagements over the course of his life. Um, so I know he did the card thing for awhile. I know eventually he got into the like packaged produce industry. Um, and that's what he was doing in the late sixties, but I don't really know what he did between the late fifties and the late sixties. In terms of businesses. I would imagine a lot of things. AT: 00:23:46 Um, do you think your grandma was working at that time or maybe by? LD: 00:23:51 My grandmother started working probably around the time my mom was in middle school. So if my mom was born in 1953 let's say 1966, 1965-ish and my grandmother became a secretary in the physics department at the University of Chicago. And what my mom has said is that she took that job to, um, at that point they were waiting for the city to buy their apartment building as part of like urban renewal plans for Woodlawn. Um, so they were sort of, she was working to help her brothers continue to pay the expenses on the building until the city would buy them out from it. AT: 00:24:33 So, um, and has your mom shared with you, um, about her experiences? Cause it sounds like there were, they were probably in Hyde Park for quite some time or you know, between like Woodlawn, South Shore, Hyde Park in those areas. Um, has your mom told you about what it was like growing up as a Japanese-American in Hyde Park? You know, over the fifties and sixties. LD: 00:25:05 I don't think my mom and I have talked a lot about what it was like for her growing up as a Japanese American on the south side. I do know that she had, there were a number of other Japanese American families, um, who she went to school with who were babysitters and things like that. Um, her best friend, I know her best friend growing up was another Hyde Park, Japanese American girl. Um, I get the sense that my grandparents didn't, weren't particularly joiners, you know, they'd never joined a church in Chicago or a temple. They didn't participate in bowling leagues or my, my, um, my mom and her brothers never did, you know, uh, the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association or Sports Leagues or none of them joined the Drum and Bugle corps. Um, so I don't think that they were institutionally really connected, um, to a lot of other institutions within Chicago, within the Chicago, Japanese-American community that were forming around that time. And I don't know why. AT: 00:26:11 Um, before we transition into like some of your own personal experiences and you know about growing up in Chicago, um, is there anything else that comes to mind or that you want to add about like families, experiences, any that can be, I mean, anything that we've talked about up until now and we can always like go back if things come up later too. LD: 00:26:41 Sure. I think one other that I find interesting, and this is influenced by just the things that I find interesting is sort of the migratory patterns that my family took in Chicago. So, my grandmother and two of her brothers were living in South Shore, um, through the late 1950s and all three of those families left South Shore around the same time. So, one of my great uncles bought a house in Park Ridge, which was in the suburbs. Um, my grandparents moved to Hyde Park and then my other great uncle and his family moved to Uptown. And in a lot of ways those represent some sort of traditional patterns of migration that Japanese-Americans took. A lot of families ended up moving to the suburbs, not typically suburbs like Park Ridge, but typically on the North and Northwest sides of the city. Um, but particularly that, um, southern, you know, south shore, Hyde Park, Woodlawn, Kenwood to Uptown, um, Edgewater, Lakeview kind of migration, um, is a really traditional path that a lot of Japanese-Americans took. LD: 00:27:50 To again, buck all the trends, my grandparents actually ended up moving back to California in 1970. Um, which was the year my mom started college. Well, technically they moved in 1969 they moved to a small town called Santa Rosa. And this was when my grandpa was working in the produce packaging industry and he had been for several years, had been commuting between Chicago and California. Um, and finally my grandmother was really fed up with this, that she had three elementary school aged kids and he kept, you know, going to California. So they moved to Santa Rosa. He found a house in the middle of the night by flashlight because the power had been cut off. And my grandmother was so upset that they, she refused to unpack their suitcases. So they lived there for a school year, like living out of their suitcases. And then in 1970, they moved to Irvine, which is where they lived until they died. LD: 00:28:47 Um, so my mom did her freshman, sophomore, junior year of high school at the University of Chicago lab school. And then she did her senior year at this like tiny farm community high school in the middle of nowhere in California. And uh, you know, so going from like the University of Chicago lab school to a school where Future Farmers of America was like the biggest student organization. I'm sure it was a change. Um, but then she never, she never really lived with them in Irvine, which is why she came to Chicago after college. AT: 00:29:22 Okay. So where did she go to college? LD: 00:29:25 She went to Oberlin in Ohio. Oberlin College in Ohio. AT: 00:29:29 By way of uh, Santa Rosa. LD: 00:29:32 Yes. AT: 00:29:34 Well, I, and I, I guess to have just a little bit of context. So your mom went to Oberlin and um, after Santa Rosa and then when did she come back to Chicago? LD: 00:29:49 So, my mom went to Oberlin starting in 1970 and I believe she came back to Chicago immediately after finishing, um, college. So, she met my dad at Oberlin and they, I believe they both started doctoral programs at the University of Chicago right after graduating. He started in chemistry and she started in, I want to say Far Eastern languages and cultures and neither of them finished those programs. Um, and then after that my mom worked for an organization called the Pan Asian Mental Health Reso- Research Council. And then she ended up going back to graduate school at the University of California, San Francisco in the 80s. So, she left Chicago for a little bit of time to live in San Francisco. And then she came back, um, shortly before I was born. AT: 00:30:42 Okay. Um, I'm sorry, where'd you say she went to grad school? LD: 00:30:48 She, uh, ended up getting like, actually finishing the program at the University of California in San Francisco. AT: 00:30:54 Uh, and then came back to Chicago and, and had you shortly thereafter. Um, okay. So now I'd love to talk to you about, you know, some of your own experiences growing up. Um, and, um, you mentioned you grew up in Evanston. Um, so can you tell me a little bit, um, I guess just generally like, um, at the time that you were growing up, like what, what was Evanston like and, um, uh, I guess one of the things I'm curious about is like how, um, connected people have felt like with maybe their Japanese heritage or, or their family's story growing up. So like, um, were you around other Japanese-American families growing up or, um, as far as Japanese culture, like what, what would you say about your upbringing in relations to your heritage? LD: 00:32:04 So, in terms of my own upbringing, I feel really fortunate to have felt a strong connection to the Japanese-American community as a kid. My parents made the decision to attend the Midwest Buddhist Temple shortly after I was born. They, um, I really liked going to MBT and the minister at the time I think was just a really thoughtful Buddhist teacher and they explain that their intention was not for me to become Buddhist, but their intention was for me to have a sense of Japanese-American community. And I really think that that exposed me to a lot of people my own age who were also Japanese-American. Um, I mentioned my mom's best friend growing up was also Japanese-American. She, she had a daughter who's maybe six months older than me. And, um, then there was another girl who I grew up with who were all three of us were, you know, the same grade, all multiracial, Japanese-American girls who were all growing up sort of close together. LD: 00:33:10 So in addition to MBT, in addition to our family, I sort of had this like group of friends as a kid, um, where I was really exposed to a lot of other Japanese-Americans who were my own age. Um, AT: 00:33:23 And that was through school? LD: 00:33:23 We didn't go to school together. I didn't go to school with the other two girls, but we did a lot of like social events, especially before, you know, before elementary school, like in Pre-K and kindergarten stuff where our moms would get together and we would, I dunno, go to the zoo or things like that. Um, my mom was also very involved in the Chicago, Japanese American Historical Society and Heiwa Terrace when I was younger. So I was often dragged to community events. So I remember going to, um, an exhibit at the Field Museum called "Strength and Diversity of Japanese-American Women", which I think came in 1995. LD: 00:34:00 Um, so that was probably like one of the earliest memories of a community event. We were just talking the other day about how there used to be Kanojo fashion shows that happened in the, um, room next door here at the service committee and how I think I was a model in one of those fashion shows when I was about five or six. So, from a very early age, I had a strong sense of, of other people who were also Japanese-American, as well as community institutions, events, organizations that I really felt connected to. I also remember going back when the service committee used to run Fuji Fest, um, at the Union League Club. There were a period of time, maybe when I was like eight and nine where um, along with another person who was maybe like 10 or 11. We used to sell raffle tickets until they found out it was illegal for people under the age of 18 to sell, you know, to participate in gambling. LD: 00:34:54 Um, and we were drastically under the age of 18, um, but who wouldn't turn down like an eight year old and a 10 year old asking you to buy raffle tickets. So I'm sort of, all of these things really made me feel connected to the community. Um, because of MBT I participated a lot in Ginza. I'd volunteered there starting as a little kid, um, you know, doing the snow cone machine and then working in the shop MBT table. And I also was in the original iteration of Ho Etsu Taiko when it was a youth, truly a youth taiko group. And then I stopped when, uh, my skills did not, did not grow. AT: 00:35:34 Um, so you mentioned that, um, your parent's decision to bring you to MBT and to have you involved was less to try to raise you as Buddhist and more about community involvement. Um, have you talked to them about maybe why they felt that way or have any guesses if you, if you haven't talked about it explicitly? LD: 00:36:00 So in terms of attending MBT, I think my parents, neither of my parents are particularly religious. Um, so I don't think that they really had a strong desire to have me have a strong faith identity. Um, so I think that that's why they were viewing it really as a cultural experience and not as much a religious experience. AT: 00:36:23 Um, and uh, as, as far as school, what, um, elementary school did you go to in Evanston? LD: 00:36:35 So for school I went to Midwest Montessori, which was a very small Montessori school from Pre-Kindergarten through third grade. And then third grade, I started at North Shore Country Day School in Winnetka. And I attended that through the end of high school, um, North Shore. And I am currently a trustee of North Shore. So it was a really positive and powerful place for me to be a student. Um, but it's an incredibly white school. Um, which is not to say that I think I would've really been exposed to a lot of Asian-Americans or Japanese-Americans had I gone to public school in Evanston. I think Evanston is very much a community that's segregated between Black and White. Um, but I think North Shore maybe even, I had even less exposure to um, other Asian-American or Japanese-American peers, um, at North Shore, through middle school, or I guess maybe starting in middle school and through high school I really began to explore what it meant to be multiracial. And I didn't really come back to looking at my Japanese-American identity really until college and participating in the Kansha project. So I think from middle school to high school I really explored what it meant to be for me to be multiracial. That in college I think I spent a lot more time exploring what my Asian-American identity meant and then sort of it's been post-college that I've really return to what does being Japanese-American mean to me. AT: 00:38:07 Um, and which college did you go to? LD: 00:38:09 So after North Shore Country Day school, I went to the University of Pennsylvania. So, um, I lived there. I lived in Philadelphia for four years, then I went to New York for two years, um, where I taught at a boarding school in Westchester. And then I came back to Chicago to start graduate school at the University of Chicago. AT: 00:38:31 Um, let's see, um, if you had to kind of do an on the spot, maybe like brief analysis of how, um, cause it's interesting how, um, you've kind of separated different parts of, or aspects of your identity at different times in your life. And I noticed that, um, kind of follows your trajectory of education as well. Like if you had to kind of like briefly analyze why, why that might've been and, and how, um, how specifically you kind of like you said you came back to your Japanese-American identity when you returned to Chicago and you like, maybe just say a few words on that or explain that a little further. LD: 00:39:31 Yeah. As I think about the way my own racial identity has changed over the course of my life, I think a lot of it was influenced by what kinds of maybe external opportunities or external, maybe, pressures were sort of shaping me at that moment. So I think when I was, because I went to a high school that did not have a lot of other Asian-American or Japanese-American students, um, exploring a multiracial identity I think was the easiest resource that teachers and peers could provide me. That there were other multiracial people at the school who I could begin to explore that identity with. LD: 00:40:13 Um, and I think also at the time, um, maybe, maybe, I dunno, i guess that there's sort of a way that developmentally that made sense for me where it was sort of the most obvious, physically verve- visibly obvious part of my identity that I feel like other people often grappled with. Um, and so I think it made sense that as sort of an eighth grader through 12th grader, um trying to understand what it meant for me to be multiracial made a lot of sense. Um, and that I always, you know, living at home at the time with my parents and I was sort of daily sort of considering what this family structure meant. Um, when I went to college, I think similarly, there were not, there were a lot more Asian-American students who went to Penn with me. Um, but there were not a lot of Japanese-Americans particularly, um, no Yonsei Japanese-Americans. Um, so I think that that's really where I was given a lot more opportunities to participate in Asian-American programming and, and have resources like an Asian-American Pan, Asian-American cultural center. Um, so I think that's sort of why in college, um, sort of grew more into exploring my Asian-American identity. LD: 00:41:33 Um, my senior year or the summer between my junior and senior year of college, I participated in, um, JACL Chicago's Kansha Project. And unrelated to that, I also, um, like that same summer I was talking to a friend of my mom's and she was like, you have to take a class with this guy named Ichiro Azuma if you ever get a chance. And he was teaching a class that fall that was about, um, internment history. And so sort of unrelated to each other. I ended up having these two experiences really close together. Um, and I think that that kind of set up the next transition, which was circling back to exploring a Japanese-American identity that I had felt really strongly as a kid, um, but then hadn't really thought about as much in high school and certainly not in college. Um, so that sort of set up, coming back to Chicago and then really having a great opportunity to reconnect to the Japanese-American community. AT: 00:42:30 And, uh, forgive me, uh, Azuma's class was at U Penn? Okay. Um, okay. Well, and this, um, this kind of leads into my next question, which was about, um, the degree you pursued at University of Chicago. Um, can you share about, um, what it was that you studied there and maybe some of the, the um, um, motivation, inspiration that you know, brought you to that, that degree and that research topic? Yeah. LD: 00:43:12 So I came back to Chicago to get a master's degree at the University of Chicago. It was a master's in social science and as part of the program was only a one year program, but we had to do a capstone thesis and partially out of interest and partially out of expediency. I decided to do a project around Japanese-Americans in Chicago because I figured I had a lot of, um, entree points already that would make it easier to do a one year thesis on that topic. So I ended up mapping using directories, um, from the legacy center here at the Service Committee, mapping Japanese-American residential patterns from the 1940s through the 1970s and was able to notice some very clear trends in terms of initial congregations. Um, on the south side and near north side, and then a very noticeable migration northwards through the city. Um, so through Lakeview, Uptown, Edgewater and then out into the suburbs. And if you overlay this on other, um, racial housing patterns in Chicago at the time, there's, um, very noticeable instances where, especially on the South Side and the near North Side, um, in the late forties, early 50s those neighborhoods become increasingly Black. And as that happens, Japanese-Americans leave. Um, so that's part of it. And then part of it just sort of follows general patterns of white flight as white Chicagoans left for the suburbs in the sixties and seventies. AT: 00:44:50 Um, and, uh, can you tell us like a little, a little bit more about, um, maybe some of the takeaways from, from the projects or what you found and in doing that research? LD: 00:45:06 So I think in terms of my own research, it really helped me crystallize a sense of, um, maybe the purpose of the overall incarceration history, which, you know, I, I don't think that the WRA ever intended to permanently house Japanese-Americans. But I do think if you look at the overall philosophy of the Roosevelt administration in terms of the power of the government to intervene in terms of social problems, um, they really saw pre-war Japanese-American ethnic enclaves as a social problem. And if you also look at sociologists, you know, of the 30s and 40s, um, there was this deep preoccupation with assimilation and what assimilation means, and suddenly here's this opportunity to have this government intervention to be a solution to this problem. And so to me, I really see one of the primary goals of the WRA and as this project of dispersal resettlement, um, so that you would, you would determine who was loyal, who was disloyal, for those who are loyal, you would then scatter them. LD: 00:46:18 Um, Franklin Roosevelt's said one Japanese-American family in every community across the country. Um, and you know, ultimately that didn't happen. But I think there was this intentional, internal, and external dissolution of a Japanese-American community when people came to Chicago. Um, there was discouragement of, you know, forming ethnic enclaves in the city, although the [inaudible] I think had sort of mixed, mixed intervention. Um, you know, they acknowledged that there was a lot of, um, residential concentration in Chicago. Um, but then I think there was a lot of internal pressure within the community to, um, sort of prove your Americanness and, and really what that means is aspiring towards whiteness. Um, not necessarily racially, but in terms of, um, uh, sort of sanctified American middle class lifestyle of, uh, you know, a house in the suburbs, a white collar job, kids who went to college that I think was very much internalized by the community. Um, but I think that that is not unique amongst Japanese-American community, that that is sort of a winch pin of, of some of the violence of, of this broader aspiration of whiteness that this country has embodied. AT: 00:47:42 Um, given, given, you know, some of, uh, your, your perspectives and takeaways from, from that project. Um, you know, there's a lot of, uh, strong points that you just made from the, I guess from a more like emotional side, um, rather than objective. Like, given that that's some of the takeaways that you've had from the project. Uh, and I know that you've done like extensive re- research as well. Like how as a fourth generation Japanese-American, and I will, I'll throw in there, living in today's, you know, current political climate, like how, how, how does that make you feel or what are, you know, if it's okay to ask, you know, what some of the emotional responses are like, um, you know, what, what are your thoughts on that? LD: 00:48:51 Yeah. So in terms of making sense of this as a Yonsei, I think a few different, maybe emotional responses. So when I participated in, in Kansha, I think it was really interesting because I was pretty much the exact age that my grandparents were when they went to camp. And so I felt this really strong relationship to them. And, and they had both passed away by the time I did Kansha. So I had never really talked to them about their experience. And suddenly I had all these questions that I wish I could have asked them and I, and I didn't. Um, but I also was really upset and I was really angry that I beat out what I perceived as sort of this passivity amongst Nisei. And you know, I had this really clear vision in my mind of what activism looks like and why hadn't they, you know, protested and done all this stuff. And I think, um, where I'm at now is that I really have had to push myself to re-see what activism looks like or what resistance looks like. LD: 00:50:01 And so in spite of the WRA wanting people in Chicago to deeply assimilate into the community, the fact that I had a Buddhist temple that I could go to and the fact that I was raised with a strong sense of ethnic community and pride in that community, to me that is a very political action. Um, that took a lot of work on the part of my great grandparents, grandparents and parents to keep a community, certainly community that's different than what would have looked like had there not been internment. Um, but a really strong community nonetheless. And so to see much smaller acts of resistance as very politicized, I think is something that I've been pushing myself to do in the past, I don't know, four or five years. Um, and at the same time, I also think that there are ways in which, um, Japanese-Americans are kept from that history. LD: 00:51:00 So I was just reading a book, um, this summer about, it was called "Writing to Redress". And it was about all these like small letter writing campaigns that issei women took up in camp. And it nearly every camp, there was a time when issei women got together to petition for something, whether that was hot water, or because you know, you couldn't wash your baby's diapers if you didn't have really hot water. Um, and the various, you know, they'd write to the directors of the camps, they'd write to the president, they'd write to the Spanish embassy because Spain was serving as the intermediary country between the US and Japan during the war. And so all these ways that these women were really exercising their voice, um, and sort of like that it took so long for me to find this out. You know, I think all the time we're learning new aspects of this history. So I think that was part of it. Um, okay. Yeah. There's something else I was gonna say, but I forgot it. Sorry. AT: 00:51:59 That's okay. Um, you know, we can, when it comes back, um, well and that, that, um, kind of what you're saying about, um, not having access to, to this history. Um, that brings me to some of my next questions, which is about your personal experience in learning about the incarceration experience. Um, I want to know, um, I guess this is a couple parts question, but like did you hear about it at home, like through your family and learning about your family's experiences and did you learn about it in school? And I guess I'll extend that from like your entire education. Can you just like tell me what it was like for you to like learn about internment and, and your family's history within it? LD: 00:52:53 I think the question of when did I learn about internment is always hard for me to answer because I can't quite pinpoint like a single moment. Um, I must have learned about it at home. When I was very young, my mom was, was doing oral histories for the regenerations project at the Japanese American National Museum. And I have a strong memory of going to one of those tapings with her. And these were like 18 hour, you know, multi-part interviews, very in depth with a very small number people. Um, and so that happened probably when I was seven, six or seven. Um, I also have been told that once, um, when, when I was little, we used to go when visiting my grandparents in Southern California, we used to go up to Mammoth and on the way to Mammoth you drive past Manzanar, and I don't remember this, but one time we stopped and my grandmother started talking to these like other people in the parking lot. And this was before, this was before it was in a national park site. And this was really before there was anything there. Um, and sort of started talking to these strangers about her experience in camp. LD: 00:54:01 Um, so there were all these moments that I was sort of present for, where I sort of picked up stuff and then, you know, I was taken to probably every Day of Remembrance that I was alive for, um, but I don't think there was a moment where anyone really sat me down and was like, you should read "Farewell to Manzanar" or let me tell you our family's history. Um, I think my mom and I both approached this very cerebrally and, and at a very distance distanced emotionally. Um, so, you know, I don't think there was sort of this like sentimental moment in which she tried to explain it to me. Um, in terms of learning at school, I also don't have a strong memory of learning about incarceration history at school. I think I read Farewell to Manzanar in elementary school and then we also read, um, a book in high school about Japanese-Canadians. LD: 00:54:58 Um, and so I think it wasn't really until I took this class, my senior year of college that I got any formal academic training that I really remember. And that was really exhaustive. It was, you know, we read all of the major texts that have been produced in the 1940s to today about, um, internment. So it was kind of a crash course in the greatest hits. AT: 00:55:28 Um, let's see, um, I think we can start going into some, a little bit more like reflective questions. Um, the questions are a little vague on purpose. LD: 00:55:50 That's okay. AT: Um, so I guess I would like to ask, um, why, why is your, your family's, um, actually, really quick. I've noticed that you, you have a ton of detail about your family's, um, history trajectory, um, like not even wartime, but you know, in Japan and stuff. So when did you start learning that and, and, and how, and, and you even mentioned going to Japan, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about your experiences exploring that family history. LD: 00:56:41 Yeah. So I was really lucky to have gone to Japan with my mom and grandparents in 2001. So I was in fourth grade. My grandpa could speak Japanese, so he interpreted and my mom really wanted to have this family history trip where we visited both of their, you know, where their families came from and really learned about our family history. I think I was a little bit young to truly appreciate the experience. Um, but uh, that's sort of how I learned a little bit about their history in Japan. A lot of, a lot of learning about my family history actually happened very recently. My mom and I participated in the Rohwer pilgrimage this past April and we were interviewed by a reporter from the Chicago Tribune and that kind of like pushed us to actually research our family's history to be able to talk to this woman about it. Um, so from that I learned we had all these family pictures, um, that had never seen before. LD: 00:57:44 Um, so these are, there was one picture I'd seen of my grandmother and her siblings from before the war, but we had a whole series of pictures of their family before and after the war. Um, there were a few pictures taken in camp, none of my grandmother, but of her sisters and other family members. Um, and you know, we looked up their, um, their WRA records. We looked up the, in the national archive of their final accountability records to sort of see when and where they went after camp. So it was very recent that I began exploring my own family. And, and I appreciate you saying that I know a lot because I, I feel like I really don't, I feel like there's so much that's been lost in terms of even what I could possibly know about my family's experience. AT: 00:58:29 Um, why, why is that something that's important to you to, you know, to have done this work? And I know you mentioned it, it was recently and you know, as for an article, but like, um, you know, it's clear that your family, and granted, I know you, I know your mom, but like history in general is something that, you know, seems to be of great value to your family. So can you talk to me a little bit about, about that, why it's so important to you? Yeah, I, I, in terms of thinking about why this history is important to me, I think that's a really challenging question to answer. I, fee-, part of what I find really fascinating is the way that, that I will always sort of be at a distance from this history and inevitably that those people who are engaged in this history are sort of putting together scraps. Um, and I'm very captivated by these like gaps in the archive, these things that become impossible to know. So, so often the history of Japanese-Americans gets told through the Nisei perspective because it's Nisei who we were able to gain oral history from. There often wasn't a language barrier. People could read, you know, the diaries of Nisei. Um, and also there are just ways in which, um, you know, the archive is unable to document things. So, um, I was just reading in Duncan Williams, "American Sutra" about Buddhist, um, Buddhists who joined the military and how dog tags you can only have as a marker on your religion. You can only be listed as Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or non religious. Um, and so as the quote from his book was, as a matter of expediency, Buddhists were listed as Protestant. So you have this whole military archive now that incorrectly has identified thousands of Nisei veterans as Protestants. And so you'll never be able to know how many Buddhists served in World War II or if you think about people who were renounced their US citizenship and then had it restored. Um, often those are form letters, um, because a few people had figured out sort of like the best way to make the renunciation and the best way to get your citizenship restored. And so how will you ever know what people really felt? Um, so I think that there's like this deep power in this like intentional inability to sort of like make meaning from this archive. And I find that really compelling. Um, so I think that's part of it. LD: 01:01:19 I think for me it's really important too recognize the ways that this particular political moment is and is not unique. Um, so sometimes I sort of get frustrated in the ways that, um, Japanese-American history is sort of like used right now in the Trump administration to sort of rally against Donald Trump. And, and, um, I think that hides a lot of the ways that, that Donald Trump is not that far from his predecessors in terms of his actions. Um, so this notion of using, um, of separating parents and children as like a tremendous form of violence that, um, can be used against communities of color to me is something that's foundational to the United States. That that's a tool that we saw, um, in the genocide of native people in this country. It's a tool that we saw in slavery, um, to keep slaves compliant through the threat or not of selling away children. Um, it's something you saw in, in World War Two for Japanese-Americans. Um, and it's something that you're seeing now and like those are really distinct moments in time, um, but it's sort of a through line that runs through it. So how, how is this different than any of those other moments and how is this presidency different than any of those other presidencies? And so I think that there's a element too, which I sort of, uh, am cautious about assuming that this moment is so different. And even if you are able to, you know, use the history of Japanese-Americans, um, you're really acknowledging that this is, this is a path that the United States has walked down many, many times before. Maria: 01:03:09 Does that influence, sorry if I'm interrupting because we are connecting it in legacy- it that way. Because of the the Never Again is Now March. And this is my interpretation of the story that we're building together in the documentary is that we're seeing, you know, like correlations between what is happening now and uh Yonsei activism and using what they have learned from their history of JAs, as Japanese-Americans. And how they're saying that this is happening again. Does that influence your role, your act in activism because you were one of the people that were leading the march and you were chanting and you were doing all these things. Does that influence, you know, like knowing this history and knowing that, you know, where this administration is repeating things that have already been done in your role as a par- active participant in rallying the community in like, not only, you know, like letting them see what's happening, but also in like trying to force change and why is this and if you can answer about looking at it. LD: 01:04:29 Yeah. [laughs] So as I think about, um, activism within the community today, um, there are a few sort of disparate thoughts. Um, recently I've been really fascinated in the fact that the word radical and the word radish come from the same root word, which means root. Um, and, and so I think it's like all your, your political actions should always be rooted in your history. Um, and to me that I, I see that as a huge motivator, um, in terms of, um, being able to recognize that this pain and violence that was experienced by people who I loved very deeply, um, is happening again and has happened many times. Um, and so anytime that I see that, I think that's a huge motivator to, to speak up and to try to act in ways in those same ways that I sort of condemned my grandparents for not having acted. Um, I think I've also been really preoccupied in this idea of, um, Kodomo no Tame Ni um, both in its historical context and in its contemporary context. And so to me contemporarily it's like, uh, imagining a future and sort of actions for the sake of a future children who are not yet, you know, who maybe are currently children or you know, a world that's yet to come. Um, but also this notion that like part of this, um, historical maybe trauma or distancing was also for the sake of the children. LD: 01:06:12 And that, um, you know, this notion that historical forgetting is, is like a defense mechanism and is an attempt to sort of protect, protect the future. Um, and sort of those are very, um, ideas that are very much intention and maybe those are the ideas that create that gap because you're saying on the one hand, generations before us worked to protect us by distancing from this history. And at the same time we're using this history to work for a better future. Um, so to me, I think that's how I bring this history into, um, some of the work that we're doing today. Maria: 01:06:59 Could you explain to us what the chant means? Like the literal translation of it? And, I mean, you were mentioning the right to interpretation, so that would be for clarification. Great. Because you're, I caught you there because you repeated that chant. So I thought you might, it would be great to get what it means. LD: 01:07:15 Yeah. So I, I was sort of charmed at this turning of, um, "Kodomo no Tame Ni" which means for the sake of the children into a protest rally, um, of 'Kodomo no Tame Ni, they're our children, set them free". Um, because I think that, um, there are some sort of canonical lessons that in allegory get passed down about camp. And it's things like "Shikata ga nai" and "Gaman" and, um, and it, it presents as very stoic, um, and maybe stoney response of uh, as what Bill Hosokawa "Nisei The Quiet Americans" did to endure. Um, and so I think I like this subversion of this, um, idea because I do think it's, it maybe is not as much as subversion, but I think that there are many things that, um, "for the sake of the children" could mean. AT: 01:08:17 Yeah. I'm looking at you to see if you have other questions. M: 01:08:21 No, no, yeah, you know that answers it. AT: 01:08:25 Okay. Um, let's see. And I told you 10:30, it's 10:30 now. LD: 01:08:32 Take your time. AT: 01:08:34 Um, if that's cool with you. Yeah. Uh, okay. Just some other questions. Um, do you, how do you feel about, um, we've like named some of the programs, programs and the actions and things related to internment history. Do you think it's necessary to like go over that again? M: 01:09:07 I don't think so. Because we have already got a list and you're pretty much involved in the same thing. So unless there's something that Lisa is involved in that and it's not, but pretty much we're getting the same idea of, you know, like Yonsei being active in their community in different ways. So. Okay. LD: 01:09:28 Do you, maybe could we talk about the Kansha Project a little bit? Sure. Yeah. Um, so I've mentioned a few times that I uh the summer between my junior and senior year of college, I participated in JACL Chicago's program called the Kansha Project, which was the first year of that program. So the Kansha Project is designed as a program for college age, which is now 18 to 25 year old Japanese-Americans from Chicago or the Midwest to travel together to Little Tokyo in Los Angeles and then to Manzanar. And I also came back to Chicago the year that the Kansha Project transitioned from being a staff run program to being run by alumni of the program. And so I was fortunate to be able to lead the first alumni run trip, um, in 2015. Um, and I think in seeing both the Kansha Project and the alumni leadership board, to me that's a really inspirational group where I, I recognized that I was very lucky to have felt like I grew up with a strong Japanese-American community. LD: 01:10:37 Um, but I see so often that this is really the moment when, um, many young Japanese-Americans are sort of feel that they are able to embrace that identity. Um, and so I'm, I just feel really fortunate to be able to sort of observe that and sort of watch that process. Um, and then to sort of see really the incredible things that people do when they come back from that, like this project. Um, where there are sort of tentacles all across the community of, um, what I like to consider Kansha culmination projects. We asked participants to do an art project right when they get back or an artistic reflection on their experience right when they get back. Um, but I really think that a lot of the Kansha culmination projects extend across multiple years and that they look, you know, they continue to grow and change, um, from some of those original conceptions. Um, so that's just, I, I think that that's like the original form of activism that I have engaged with in the Chicago community is, is being able to craft this experience for, for other Japanese-Americans. And then I just recently, um, came back from Rohwer again with the Arab American Action Network, um, where we took a group of high school students, Japanese-American and Arab American high school students to Little Rock and Rohwer and really explored the history of the Japanese-American incarceration, civil rights movement and post-911 anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment. Um, as sort of three historical moments together. AT: 01:12:13 Was that, um, was that with Kansha project specifically or was that J- who was running that? LD: 01:12:18 Yeah, so it was a program of, uh, JACL Chicago. Um, we tentatively, and it's still a tentative title, had been calling it bridge builders a few years ago, a program called bridging communities, a very similar program called bridge and communities happened. Um, so didn't quite want to use the same name, but never really embraced bridge builders. AT: 01:12:40 Um, thank you for, for sharing that. I guess, um, um, if you had to, uh, I don't know exactly what I'm, what I want to ask, but I want to ask it so bad. Um, I guess like for this, um, you've mentioned the Kansha project's role in, um, connecting a lot of young, um, Chicago based Nisei to, um, the incarceration history. Um, and I'm wondering, I guess I just, I would love to hear like more of your thoughts and maybe like on a bigger level, uh, like a, about why here, let's do it this way. Each generation within our community is so vastly different as an I'm, I'm say- saying that like fact. Um, and I guess I would love to hear from you, like if you were to kind of like classify and uh, you know, it will be generalizing, um, if I can ask you to do that. Um, like how are I guess how the, the Yonsei generation is maybe unique, um, like wha- or, or just sharing your thoughts about, or reflections on what you see or notice, observe about the Yonsei generation in this community. LD: 01:14:32 So as a disclaimer, I think these are just my thoughts and this are going to be very generalized statements. AT: 01:14:37 At best, what I asked you to do. LD: 01:14:39 So I think, you know, the issei, if you think maybe beyond the Japanese-American community in terms of what immigration, what happens, uh, for second and third, fourth generation, um, ethnic communities more broadly. You know, I think the issei were not dissimilar from a lot of immigrant generations in coming to America and their, their primary goal was sort of like making a life or like making this country hospitable for them and their children. Um, I think that got sort of dislocated. And so I think some of that got also transferred to Nisei who really felt this. Like I feel Nisei in general felt this sort of like sense of establishing themselves in America, um, often starting having to start over after the war and sort of like trying to build families. LD: 01:15:30 Um, so then I think a lot of the Sansei I know grew up, um, with expectations that they would go to college. Um, sort of moving their families from maybe middle class to upper middle class or upper class lifestyles, um, in a sort of suburban experience. Um, and then I think, which is not dissimilar from other groups. Yonsei I think have, have a lot more flexibility to sort of deviate from maybe more prescribed pathways. Um, and so I think that that's where, you know, I think a lot of the Yonsei I grew up with also college was, you know, very inevitable. Um, but you also see this ability to sort of explore more creative responses or, um, more politicized responses. And I think that's not to say that I don't think that the Nisei and Sansei also had politicized responses. LD: 01:16:29 I think the other piece of this was like, I think for the Sansei there was very much, um, you know, movement around redress. Um, and so that really fostered engagement of, uh, academics and lawyers to really document, um, this experience in a very particular way that I think again, leaves the possibility for Yonsei, to have much more divergent and artistic engagements. Um, I think my mom would probably say something about the difference between parents and children and parents or grandparents and grandchildren. Um, that for her, the people who were incarcerated were, um, again, that they're sort of like less flexibility in a parent child relationship, but that grandparents sort of get to be, or at least grandparents in the eighties, nineties, and two thousands get to be much more like whimsical people in the lives of their grandchildren than parents who sort of have to like maybe struggle with more on a day to day sense. LD: 01:17:32 Um, so that it's maybe both that relationship to who was incarcerated amongst the Yonsei as well as sort of like flexibility in terms of trajectories. I think like Jason is a great example where he, um, you know, I think if I think about his parents and if they gave up their banking jobs to start a film production company, like I think Dr. Ben would have, uh, not known what to do. Right. But you know, like I think his parents, um, he, he has the, he has the luxury of being able to do that and to sort of pursue this and to get support from his parents and his family in a way that I think would not have been the case 30, 40 years ago. M: 01:18:18 Talking about that, do you think it has to do with timing the fact that we're able to hear and tell the stories now rather than 20, 30 years ago and maybe something that could have affected, you know, Nisei and even Sansei when they didn't have the platform that we now well or at least you as Yonsei have to share these story stories. Do you, and maybe the fact that information is available for you, and I'm not saying that it was easy to obtain, but maybe easier than it would have been for maybe your mother or maybe your, you know, like apart from the fact that it was so close to the time that it happened, maybe that detachment that you as Yonsei have to look at the history, can allow for that exploration of this thing that happened. And what do you think about that? M: 01:19:10 Because that's kind of like the approach that the legacy part is like going back and we're you know retelling this story through the voices of like very like older Sansei and you know, like in oh, like young Nisei and we're using their testimonies to kind of end, you know, like the end line is that Yonsei are primary, the people we're hoping that we'll see this as well as, you know, like anyone in the community, but the fact that oh, this happened and eh, why didn't we know about this? So it's kind of like an informative thing. So do you think that, and I guess my question goes back to, is it a privilege, eh, that we now have, that you guys now have these Yonsei to be exploring these things and maybe now is the time, what do you think about that? Do you have an opinion on maybe the timing of things and you know, pretty much why is it important to even discuss this now? Because some people are like, oh, it's history. It's past. Why even like put the finger in the wound, I don't know if that's the expression. That's pretty much that. LD: 01:20:21 Yeah. I think one other thing that's really crucial about the timing, and I think often the redress movement gets overlooked or sort of like, it's a footnote in the history. But I think amongst the things the redress movement did is it opened the doors of people telling their stories. Um, so I think in terms of the number of oral histories or interviews or memoirs that you might have gotten, you know, in the sixties or seventies versus after the mid eighties and nineties and two thousands, you know, I think it was this synergy of suddenly the technology made it much easier. And there was, um, you know, this moment when people were really asked to testify and to tell their stories. And I think that that really just opened a flood gate of possibilities for many other people to, to tell those kinds of stories. Um, I think that was crucial in terms of making it intelligible for future generations. AT: 01:21:22 Um, what do you think are some of the main, um, lessons or, or messages that, um, need to be taken away from the incarceration history? And maybe I might extend that to resettlement as well. LD: 01:21:41 What do I think are the main lessons, mm, so when I think about takeaways from this history, I'm always torn between acknowledging ways in which it was unique and acknowledging ways in which it fits very easily into a broader arc of United States history. Um, you know, if I think that there're important takeaways in terms of probably constitutional law and, and the rights of citizens. Um, but I also think that more broadly, like the amount of echos and reverberations across historical time, um, is, is not surprising. So on this trip that we took to Rohwer, um, we visited Little Rock Central High School, um, which was integrated by the Little Rock Nine. And one of the students who was, um, integrating the school, she talked about how, uh, initially the Arkansas, um, national guard had been called in and she talked about how you knew she's, she's a citizen. So she just assumed that the Arkansas national guard had been called in to protect her and to, you know, help her get into this school when in fact the Arkansas National Guard had been called in to, um, initially to prevent her from going to this school. LD: 01:23:10 And it like just the echoes of people who talked about, you know, the, the military police with the machine guns were pointing them in, um, into the camps and sort of what do we expect as citizens for our government to do for us? And then these moments where you just are sort of, um, faced with the reality that your government doesn't really consider you to be a person, um, or you know, imbued with the rights of a person. Um, and I think maybe my takeaway is sort of like to be really attentive to the ways that, that this history, um, repeats itself over and over again and sort of what then is our obligation to do. AT: 01:23:54 Yeah. Um, I just have a couple questions left. It's, yeah, let me pause, of Chicago today. LD: 01:24:07 I'm very excited by the Japanese-American community in Chicago today. Um, right before I moved back to Chicago, I wrote this piece for work, which is going to sound really strange, but it was about, um, it was about how it was really uh, a sort of, I guess it was about how does a community die. And so it was about this sense that I had in returning to Chicago and sort of like what, what would be a good caretaker role in sort of like allowing, as Nisei die, like sort of allowing the Japanese-American community to sort of die along with it. Um, and that's I guess how I felt right before I came back to Chicago. Um, and then I think I was just really lucky that the timing sort of worked well. You know, I think if I had, if I think if I had moved to Chicago in like 2005, it would've been a really different time to be a young person in the Japanese-American community in Chicago. Um, that 2015 is about when Full Spectrum Features started. Um, I don't think Ann lived in Chicago much before 2015. Um, and so like a lot of things sort of came together at the right time. The right people were sort of engaging at the right time. And I think right now I feel really excited about the future of the Japanese-American community in Chicago and sort of where a really vibrant group of younger folks are going to take the community. AT: 01:25:42 So you touched on it. My follow up question was what are your hopes, for the community of Chicago, for the future? LD: 01:25:51 Yeah. Um, I really hope that the community stays engaged. Um, I think, I really see the Kansha project is having activated a generation of young people. And so what happens if the Kansha project doesn't exist in perpetuity? Um, or how do we continue to do a good job of bringing in Shin-Nikkei or people who don't have a family history of incarceration. Um, what happens when it becomes Go-sei who, who never knew anyone who was incarcerated, you know, how will they make meaning, um, of that history. And in particular, I, I hope that the political engagement of this community continues into the next administration and the next administration that there are so many fights that we still have to be a part of, um, that are also lessons that we draw from our own history. Um, and so that there, you know, there doesn't become a sense of complacency. Um, but mostly I'm just excited. AT: 01:26:57 Um, great. One thing that I like to ask, just all of the oral histories, um, as we wrap up is, um, if you could leave behind some kind of message or legacy, whether, and you can, like however you want to answer this question, whether it's like it's your kids or future generations or specifically within the community, but it doesn't have to be, if you could leave some kind of legacy behind, what would you want that to be? LD: 01:27:32 So also in Duncan Williams', "American Sutra", he talks about, um, the heart mountain sutra or the heart mountain stones. So for a long time, or in the 50s, a farmer or rancher dug up this oil drum filled with stones at heart mountain and on each stone was a single Japanese character. Um, and for decades, you know, no one really knew what these were. And relatively recently, um, I guess Buddhist scholars have determined that they were, um, single characters for a Sutra, a teaching of the Buddha. Um, and that there was a, uh, a Buddhist priest who'd been at Heart Mountain who likely made these stones and then buried them in the earth. And there's this teaching that in times that are inhospitable to Buddhism, you should take the teachings of the Buddha and you should bury them in the earth for future generations to find, um, when sort of, when the time is ready. Um, so to me, I think not just for future generations, but for myself and for future generations, um, there's uh, an awful lot of work that remains to be really attentive to these gaps in historical knowledge and how do we fill them in and sort of how do we make space for the time to be hospitable for these stories to be known. Um, so that I think is both my task and a task that I would pass on because I know I can't finish it. AT: 01:29:07 Thank you so much for sharing. LD: 01:29:10 Thank you. AT: 01:29:11 Before we completely, Oh, do you have something? M: 01:29:13 No, no. I'm just wondering if you're going to ask if she had any- AT: 01:29:17 Before we wrap up, is there anything that you'd want to add or that we might've missed in this conversation? For the record? LD: 01:29:25 Yeah, I guess just one really small thing. So one other thing that happened to my family when they, when they came to Chicago is that my great grandfather got remarried. So he, the woman who he married was also at Rohwer. We don't really know if they met in Rohwer and then came to Chicago together or if they met in Chicago. Um, but by the time they got to Chicago, my grandmother had like, I think three or four step-siblings as well. So they ended up having a very large blended family. That's it. AT: 01:29:56 Yeah. Thank you. M: 01:29:57 Thank you. AT: 01:29:57 Thank you. LD: 01:29:58 Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for asking me. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoiElizabeth20190906.xml DoiElizabeth20190906.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Doi, Lisa (9/6/2019)
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Lisa Doi is a multiracial fourth generation (Yonsei) Japanese American, born in Chicago and raised in Evanston, Illinois. Lisa discusses her maternal family's roots in Japan, immigration history, wartime experiences of incarceration at Santa Anita and Rohwer, resettlement in Chicago, and community life in Chicago to the present day. This interview reflects her mother's experience growing up in Hyde Park, on Chicago's South Side, as well as Lisa's own experiences growing up in Evanston with a variety of connections to Japanese American community life.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-09-06
Format
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video
Series: Untold Stories
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/9c94f0ab75b3bf08cf20b2587e126128.png
9504be95046249115bdb1a02943c87bb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Fujishima, Kazuko May
Interview Keyword
Midwest Buddhist Temple
Jerome
Fresno
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/10/2017 Fujishima, Kazuko May (8/10/2017) 0:31:34 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Midwest Buddhist Temple Jerome Fresno Fujishima, Kazuko May Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299704012 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299704012?h=c1f3437243" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Kazuko May Fujishima recounts her early life in rural central California, incarceration experiences during World War II, and postwar resettlement in Chicago. A founding member and the first female president of the Midwest Buddhist Temple, she reflects on the early years of the temple and the key individuals who were involved with its establishment. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] KazukoFujishima: 00:00 My name is Kazuko May Fujishima. Anna Takada: 00:04 And can you tell me a little bit about, uh, where you were born and your hometown? KF: 00:11 Well, when I was born I was actually born in Armona, California. And, um, I' ; m one of four girls and my mother and father, they worked wherever they could find a job that was back in 1920s. AT: 00:35 And, and what was the, the town you grew up in and what was that like? KF: 00:41 No, it was a rural area in central California. And, uh, my father managed a 40 acre orchard, growing peaches, apricots and plums. And, uh, of course, hay, for the courses that have plowed the field because they didn' ; t have tractors at that time, I guess, or it was too expensive. But, uh, he managed that for a woman who lived in near Los Angeles. AT: 01:19 And where, where were you in the birth order of your family with your siblings? KF: 01:27 What do you mean? AT: 01:27 Were you the youngest or the oldest? KF: 01:28 No, I' ; m the, uh, third, third child. I have an older sister who is her mother, Maxine' ; s mother. And um, I had another sister that lived in Seattle and she was a nurse. She went to nurses training school, the government sponsored and uh, then came me. And then I have my sister Takaio. Now she is an actress. She lives in Hollywood. AT: 02:08 Like, like before the war. Um, did you KF: 02:15 What was life like, before the war? AT: 02:18 You went to school? KF: 02:18 Well, it was normal, you know, we had ah Caucasian friends and we also had Japanese friends. There were a lot of the Japanese. So, uh, we went to Japanese school too because I have parents wanted us to be able to converse with them. And uh, so we went to Japanese school. AT: 02:45 And uh, do you remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked? KF: 02:51 Yes, I do. AT: 02:56 Or how old were you? KF: 02:56 I mean, they made it, uh, very, I don' ; t know what to say, but, uh, they wanted us to know that we were not the enemy. It was the people in Japan, not the Japanese in the United States. So they wanted to make sure that we were more American. Although ah, we did Japanese things like eating Japanese food, growing our own vegetables, which were, you know, the things that Japanese eat, but uh. AT: 03:53 When you, when you say they, who are you referring to? You said they wanted you to know that you' ; re more American than Japanese. KF: 04:05 Yes, right. AT: 04:05 Who, who is they or who is that? KF: 04:08 My parents. AT: 04:10 Your parents. Okay. And uh, how, how old were you at the time? KF: 04:17 I was 14, so I was at that age where, you know, you do know that you' ; re American and that you want to be American, although we look different. AT: 04:42 And, and do you remember when the Evacuation Orders went out? KF: 04:49 Yes. Yes. Um, my father bought ah three trunks to store his, uh, the valuables that he thought like, uh, the Japanese clothing and the good dishes and the blankets. You know, whatever he thought was, was important for him to keep. And he left it with a trusted friend and many of the so called trusted friends ended up not being trusted, but ours was a very trusted friend. And we did get our trunks back intact because we heard of people who didn' ; t get their valuables back. They were taken from them, just lost. So we were lucky. AT: 06:08 Do you remember how you felt about the situation at the time at age 14? KF: 06:19 Kind of. And I have my, uh, I was a sophomore in high school and I had my annual, my high school annual and uh, people had written things and know my friends and one was uh my uh, my shorthand teacher. And he said, keep your chin up, things will get better. And I keep reading things that, you know, my so called friends wrote and uh, it' ; s amazing, you know, some were real friends and some were not. So in a way I guess, you know, that' ; s why we didn' ; t go back to California. We stayed in Chicago and, uh, that jobs were plentiful for the Japanese Americans and even my father. So, you know, it was a good thing that we were in Chicago. AT: 07:50 And where, where was the first place that you were relocated to? KF: 07:58 Where? AT: 07:58 Did you go to an Assembly Center? KF: 08:02 We, we lived on the South Side. AT: 08:07 Oh, I mean from your hometown and going to camp? KF: 08:10 Oh from my hometown to camp? AT: 08:14 Mhm KF: 08:14 Okay. From my home time we went to Fresno Assembly Center and then from Fresno it was a five day train trip to Arkansas. It was, uh, an older train and sometimes, you know, they had to get a special, I don' ; t know, it would stop and not not go, you know. So it was an old train that, uh, I was prone to motion sickness, so I was sick most of the way. AT: 09:06 How long were you in Fresno? KF: 09:08 In Fresno? I think it was a matter of months because we didn' ; t go to school when we were in Fresno. AT: 09:24 Do you remember what you would do then? KF: 09:27 What? New Speaker: 09:27 Do you remember what you would do to pass the time or? KF: 09:31 Well, we would only play with each other and, um, I love sports. So we played basketball, baseball, and uh, we' ; d make up different teams and we' ; d play against each other. AT: 09:52 Do you remember your first impressions of, uh, when you went to Fresno? KF: 09:58 Fresno, yes. Well, they were mostly of people we knew. So, uh, it was, uh, not too bad, but the thing is it was hard for our parents. And, uh, let' ; s see, my father and he was in Fresno. He had to have some kind of job and so he worked as a policeman and your mother worked in the mess hall. So that' ; s about the only kind of jobs, you know, women can have working in the mess hall either as a cook or serving the food. So we were at my age, it was all fun. AT: 11:09 And then, where did you go from Fresno and that it was a five day trip KF: 11:22 To Arkansas. It was to Jerome. AT: 11:27 And, and what was, what was Jerome like KF: 11:30 What? AT: 11:30 What was Jerome like? Did you go to school there? KF: 11:34 Yes, yes. All the land to go to school and take a, I was in high school and I was pushing in a business course. So I took my, uh, regular and like history and science and English and, uh, for my, uh, alternative classes, I took shorthand and, uh, are there around business course. So at least, you know, we were able to, uh, get our education. It wasn' ; t the best because the teachers were, were not the best, but at least we got through high school. AT: 12:29 And there you lived with your family? KF: 12:32 Yes. And then we went to Jerome, I graduated high school and so then they wanted us, you know, us to leave camp. So my father and went to a sod farm. I went out as a housekeeper, domestic work. I was a babysitter for ah young boys. And I only lasted six months I think. And then I decided to, uh, take an office job and I started working for the [H?] Old Store Company. The office manager was a Jewish woman and so she, uh, took us under her wings and treated us real good. I think because of they, the Jewish people were discriminated against. And then AT: 13:52 Sorry, this was in Chicago? KF: 13:55 Yes. AT: 14:00 And so how did that work? Did your dad get a job first and then you joined him? KF: 14:07 What? AT: 14:07 Do you remember how that process works? Did your dad find a job in Chicago? First and then you joined him. KF: 14:17 Yes, yes. Right. AT: 14:18 And what about the rest of your family? KF: 14:21 Okay. My father went to a sod farm, you know, they grow grass or lawn. And then, uh, he worked there until he was quite old. And my mother of course, didn' ; t have any, didn' ; t have any, you know, work related things. So she, uh, my father decided to buy a house and it had, uh, lots of bedrooms. So he rented it out to ah two, two fellas who were going to college and he rented it out and my mother made meals for them and made their lunch for them. So that helped pay for the house. AT: 15:25 And where was the house located? KF: 15:28 4453 South Ellis Avenue. Yeah. And um, I think it' ; s still a pretty nice neighborhood, but that' ; s why we' ; re, many of the Japanese congregated bought homes or rented. AT: 15:54 Did you know anyone that also moved to Chicago? KF: 15:58 What? AT: 15:58 Did you know anyone else who also moved to Chicago from camp? KF: 16:03 No, except that, uh, the first job I had was in Evanston, at hous, the housekeeping. And then, uh, I had a relative who lived on Fullerton and, uh, she said, if you' ; re tired of the, you know, housekeeping job, you can stay here and look for a office job. And so that' ; s what I did after six months or so. And then I worked for this [Mal?] Richard, like I said, and she' ; s Jewish. And so they were discriminated against so she was good to the Japanese and I worked for that company until I was 72 years. Another Speaker: 17:09 You knew a lot of people from camp who came here and they were part of the Midwest Buddhist Temple. Another Speak 2: 17:23 Right. I mean they had Reverend Kono was here. KF: 17:25 Right. Another Speaker: 17:26 So that' ; s what she' ; s asking. KF: 17:28 Oh Another Speaker: 17:29 Did you know other people from camp, you knew a lot of people who moved here. KF: 17:37 As a matter of fact, Ben and Tosh, were the ones that bought the land, that was, um, a special deal, wasn' ; t it? Yeah. Uh, oh, I think they found out that it wasn' ; t a tax free area. And because um, the temple is tax free. I went to city hall and got the, uh, tax, free papers. And so that' ; s how we were able to buy, buy the land. AT: 18:24 And I' ; m sorry, that was the land for Midwest Buddhist Temple? So, um, and that, that property was purchased for the, for the temple to create the temple? KF: 18:43 Yes. So every so many years we go to city hall and renew that, that we are still tax free. AT: 18:58 So can you tell me more about, um, the, the folks who are involved in and founding the temple? KF: 19:07 The what? AT: 19:07 Who were involved in founding MBT? KF: 19:13 Yes. Our minister and the two fellows, Ben and Tosh. Okay. They were ah, Tosh worked for an engineering firm and, um, Ben was, uh, optometrist and so they were able to delve into things and, uh, got more information about the tax free information and so did I. So I went to city hall. AT: 19:59 And so was that just, um, that was like a, uh, volunteered effort? KF: 20:09 Yes, right. AT: 20:09 So can you, can you tell me about some of the early days of MBT? KF: 20:15 About what? AT: 20:15 The early days of MBT and getting that started? KF: 20:20 Oh, yes. Uh, it happened that there were many Buddhists, uh, that we' ; re, we' ; re from California and elsewhere, like Tosh was from ah Seattle area, I think. Ben was from LA area and you know, we were all from different parts of California, but, uh, there were many Buddhists, so, uh, and they congregated from, uh, from the temple and uh, you know, we just gave voluntarily, what ever we could. AT: 21:17 Uh, where, where did you congregate before, um, MBT? Was there a certain location? KF: 21:25 No. Um, I think Moody Bible used to allow us to use the room because they are nonsectarian. Right? And uh, I think that' ; s how we started. And I think ah, Mich Ichikawa had something to do with that. Another Speaker: 22:04 I know there were some temporary places but I don' ; t know any names Another Speak 2: 22:08 How did you know Reverend Kono? KF: 22:11 What? Another Speak 2: 22:11 How did you know Reverend Kono? KF: 22:13 Where? Another Speak 2: 22:17 Did you, did you meet him in camp or was he in California? KF: 22:23 Who? Another Speak 2: 22:23 Reverend Kono. KF: 22:24 Reverend Kono, he was in California at the Hanford Buddhist Church. Another Speaker: 22:32 Wasn' ; t he in camp? KF: 22:34 Yes. But he was well known in California. He would go speak and at all the different Buddhist churches, he was a good speaker. Another Speaker: 22:47 Was he in your camp too? KF: 22:49 Yes, yes. Another Speaker: 22:54 Did he have Buddhist services there too? KF: 22:54 Yes, yes. But they tried, you know, they didn' ; t want too many people at one time so they would, you know, congregate. And then later on they accepted. So we were able to use their home for services. But when we came to Chicago then that was another story again. He had a service on the South Side and had a service on the North Side before we built the temple. And Reverend Kubose was a popular speaker too. So he was mostly on the South Side. AT: 24:03 How many people would you say were, were involved like in those early days of the temple, how many members or, or people would come? KF: 24:19 It started out with maybe 25. They didn' ; t want too many people at one time. So 25 to 50. And then it got, larger as it got well known. AT: 24:43 And um, were there any other activities that you were involved with? Um, besides those uh, at the temple, in Chicago? KF: 24:56 In Chicago, no, I guess I was so involved with the temple that I didn' ; t have the time for the things. But, uh, when we were getting the, oh, what' ; s the artifacts for the altar? I was in charge of that because, uh, I was an exporter. And, uh, so we were able to get him the altar pieces from Japan. And because I was in export, I was able to, uh, get special deals. Another Speaker: 25:54 She was also the first female president, of the Buddhist temple as part of the Buddhist churches in America. AT: 26:03 This is why I' ; m glad you' ; re here. Wow. And so, um, so have you been involved in the temple since? KF: 26:21 Yes, but I' ; m more or less retired, but I still help out wherever I can. AT: 26:33 And, uh, so you, you had a family here in Chicago. Um, did you all, you raised your kids Buddhist and was that, that was the temple? KF: 26:47 Yeah, because, uh, we had our scouting program at our temple, which kept our son involved at our temple. But he' ; s, uh, he married a Caucasian girl, so, and has two children, so he' ; s not quite as involved anymore, but we still keep in touch. He has twin girls. AT: 27:32 And how, how would you say that, um, how has the, the Japanese American community of Chicago, um, changed from the time that you first came here after the war? KF: 27:53 I think we may managed to coexist, you know, mingled with more Caucasians. As a matter of fact, uh, there' ; s quite a few Caucasians that come to our temple and we try, try to be more a, you know, nonexclusive. AT: 28:38 Well, as we wrap up here, um, just a few more questions and please jump in if you have anything else. Um, if, uh, if you could leave your, your children and grandchildren, um, with any kind of legacy or message, what, what might that be? KF: 29:13 What would you say Joy? Another Speak 2: 29:28 I would say do the best you can at everything. And always be mindful. KF: 29:41 Yeah. And I always said when we had our building on the South Side, you know, don' ; t, don' ; t try to, to do things to, uh, make things shameful for the Japanese. We should uh, we should coexist. That' ; s, that' ; s my main, main thing. And you know, don' ; t be too Japanese, but be polite. And I think that' ; s what I learned from this Jewish friend. You know, my, uh, my boss and I, I' ; m still friends with the owner or the company Mrs. Elsdorf. Yeah, she came to my 90th birthday party. You don' ; t remember? Another Speaker: 31:02 No, she wasn' ; t there. KF: 31:02 She was there. AT: 31:12 Well, thank you so much for recording with us. Is there anything that you might want to add or that I might' ; ve missed in this conversation? KF: 31:27 No. AT: 31:27 Well, thank you again. KF: 31:31 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujishimaKazuko20170810.xml FujishimaKazuko20170810.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujishimaKazuko20170810.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fujishima, Kazuko May (8/10/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Kazuko May Fujishima recounts her early life in rural central California, incarceration experiences during World War II, and postwar resettlement in Chicago. A founding member and the first female president of the Midwest Buddhist Temple, she reflects on the early years of the temple and the key individuals who were involved with its establishment.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Series: Then They Came for Me
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/096c5d69af4315f65882d84703660e8b.png
01b286b14cc15891bc22564794d7841e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Fujiyoshi, Jane
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Rohwer
Texas
Farmer
Christian
Lakeside Church
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
Society of Friends
Quaker
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/12/2017 Fujiyoshi, Jane (11/12/2017) 0:47:39 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Rohwer Texas Farmer Christian Lakeside Church Chicago Nisei Athletic Association Society of Friends Quaker Fujiyoshi, Jane Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299381243/ac1a48cab4 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299381243?h=ac1a48cab4" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Jane Fujiyoshi is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American who was born in California and incarcerated at Rohwer as an infant. She discusses her family's experiences leaving Rohwer to farm in Texas, where they lived for 19 years before eventually moving to Chicago. She recalls sharecropper life, the kindness of her Mexican American neighbors, and Japanese American community life in Texas. The Fujiyoshi family relocated to Chicago in the early 1960s, and Jane describes the challenges and excitement of establishing new lives in a major city. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 To start, can you just state your full name please? Jane Fujiyoshi: 00:01 It' ; s Jane. My maiden name was, uh, Sakoda and it' ; s, um, I' ; m married now, it' ; s uh Fujiyoshi AT: 00:10 And where and when were you born? JF: 00:13 Um, I was born in 1941, um, April, April, 1941 in Montebello, California. AT: 00:24 And uh, what kind of town or area is that? JF: 00:27 It' ; s a farm, rural. My Dad was a farmer and um, now, that' ; s all part of East Los Angeles. I mean it' ; s all city now, but it was rural, I think at that time. And um, I can' ; t tell you too much about it cause we left there in 1942 when I was about just turning one. So, um, I, I don' ; t really know the area myself, but I' ; ve seen it afterwards. AT: 00:53 Do you know what kind of property that or? JF: 00:55 I know that we were, my mom said she had, she was a city girl from Hollywood and she married my dad who was a farmer, farm boy. And they were, I know she had to help put crates of lettuce on her shoulder and walk it out, you know. And, and this is, you know, her introduction, an introduction to a farm life. Yeah. AT: 01:16 And do you have any siblings? JF: 01:18 Yes. There, there are eight, eight of us. Yeah. AT: 01:22 Where are you in the birth order? JF: 01:24 Third, third of eight, and there' ; s six girls and two boys. So I have an older sister Janice, who' ; s, you want to know who they are? AT: 01:31 Yeah. JF: 01:32 Okay. She' ; s a teacher and taught many years and she actually went back to California when she was, because we moved to Texas. Maybe I' ; d better start at the beginning. AT: 01:44 Sure. JF: 01:44 Okay. Like my dad was born in 1912 and he' ; s the oldest of seven children. And my grandfather came by way of Hawaii. And, um, uh, I think he helped build some of the water, water lines or over someplace. And, um, and then came, then he settled in California and was farming there. And He, all, all of the children, all of my father' ; s, he and he, he' ; s the oldest of seven and, and they were all born in California. AT: 02:19 Okay. And how about your mom? Do you know where she ended up in America? JF: 02:24 Yeah. She, um, she' ; s also a Nisei. Her, her mom and dad were both here. My, my grandmother was a picture. Right. And I think on both sides they were both picture brides. And, um, um, my grandfather had come when he was about 15 years old and he' ; d lived in, uh, with a, with an American family and he became a gardener. That' ; s on my mother' ; s side. My father said there were always farmers, but my, and my grandmother on my mother' ; s side was, uh, she did, um, I think, uh, after the war, you know, when it was hard to get jobs in. But when they went, for the people who went back to Cali, California, she' ; s the one who, um, umm, like took an ironing she, you know, she took an ironing and she, um, had had a very interesting way that she' ; s made a living to. But they, they became pretty prosperous than that. That because she was able to buy property in, you know, like four, four lots, four for the four children they had, yeah. AT: 03:28 Um, so when the, when the war broke out, um, do you know a little bit about what happened with your family and your parents. They had three small children at that time, would that be right? JF: 03:42 Yeah, I was a third third of the children, um, at that time. And, um, we were, we didn' ; t own the land, so, and my, my grandparents had left in 1938. Um, my father' ; s parents, they, they, they, they, they, um, returned to Japan with all the money that they had earned because he was not one the eldest son, he was one of the younger sons. And the dream for the, for a lot of the people who came here was to work, make money so they could buy property in Japan. And so that' ; s what he did, that he, he worked here. He had, you know, he, he was fortunate that he was able to have a family here. And then when he thought he had enough money, he took all the money they had. And, uh, my, my dad being the oldest, oldest stayed back. And then of course he had already married and had three children. So he wasn' ; t interested in going back to Japan and he was, and they were doing very, very well. There were, you know, they' ; d had some good years and they' ; ve had, in 1941, they bought a brand new 1941 Buick. Um, and I guess they paid cash in those days, you know, they didn' ; t have such things as loans. And he bought, he bought a farm equipment and he bought my mom a washer and dryer and things like this, things that you couldn' ; t pack in just two suitcases and you' ; d have to get rid of them are, you know, and we didn' ; t own the property, so, and we had, uh, we had a seed and we planted it I think. And, and, uh, so all that was, you know, the new crop was going to come through and we had, he had done very well, but, um, but he had invested in all into equipment and things that we had to leave behind. So they, they lost quite a bit and when they had to leave. AT: 05:32 And, um, so can you explain the, the trajectory of your family after the Evacuation orders went out? JF: 05:40 Okay. Well, um, I understand that we had to go into the Santa Anita Racetrack and we were there for awhile and then from there we were sent to rural Arkansas and then at and now, and my father was a farmer. He was very, you know like uneasy being in camp. And he here, he knew that there was a need for farmers. And so he, he had heard of, um, he, uh, he had a friend who was farming in Texas. And so, um, then we were told that the, uh, that we were in the area was open and we could come in, go to Texas and farm. So we, uh, in 1942, October of 1942 after my baby sister was born in camp, she, um, there were four of us now, four children, and she was newborn. And I understand we wrote on them on a railroad car. I' ; m not in the car, but between the rail cars, my mom and four children, newborn baby in her hands and the rest of us hanging on to each other. So we don' ; t fall off the train because we' ; re, we' ; re, we' ; re sitting on our suitcases between the, where, the, where, the where, the, you know, trains locked together like this because they needed the room for the soldiers and other people who were there, you know, so, and we were just going to go join my dad and in the lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas, right near the Mexican border. AT: 07:11 Do you know how that worked? Did he leave first and then, you? JF: 07:16 Yeah, he left first to make sure that he find a place for us to stay. And all like that. And he had to write many letters to get permission to leave and, uh, and get, you know, people' ; s saying he' ; s good character and all that stuff. AT: 07:32 And where in Texas was that? JF: 07:34 That we relocated to? AT: 07:36 Mhm JF: 07:36 A place called Los Indios. It means the Indians and it was right near the Mexican border within five miles. In fact, the farm place was, um, it was, had, the land had to be cleared. It was mesquite and, um, cactus, you know, and so he had to clear the land leveling off, um, and then we could begin to farm it. So because we weren' ; t taking somebody else' ; s land that, you know, or whatever. But I mean, when we paid rent on that land. AT: 08:09 And how long was your family there? JF: 08:11 We were there for 19 years. AT: 08:19 Where, where were your first memories? Where were you living? JF: 08:24 We were living in what somebody said it was a ghost house because a person had, had been killed and his body and or clothes had been thrown on top of the roof of this house. And some people claim that they could see ghosts in this house, but, and it was just, um, a simple, just a room, basically one, one room. And I think there was an outhouse. And then, um, so it was very simple place, but we stayed there for only a short time I think. And then my dad had a little house, well, um, built, you know, and um, so we moved into this house and that didn' ; t have running water in the wash, you know, a regular wash, you know, bathroom and all like that with running water and flush toilets. AT: 09:10 And so that, that first has the ghost house, was that, um, were your first memories are of living of living there? JF: 09:19 Yeah, but, um, and I have to say the people that, our neighbors there were, um, Mexican Americans and they have, although they had lived there for many years and he could speak English very well, they still had, you know, some prejudice against them, you know. And so they were very kind to us, very, very kind of, we had, and in fact, we were still friends today because they were so, so nice to us and we have really good memories of all, are Mexican friends over there, so, but we, we located in Texas, yeah. After the war. AT: 09:54 And so, um, your dad, did he just continue farming up in Los Indios? JF: 10:00 Yeah, we farmed there for 19 years and we had good years and bad years, you know. Um, and we sharecropped 25% of your pay off the gross goes to the landowner first. And then, um, from the, from the rest of it, you pay your bills, you know, your, your farm laborers. Cause we, we, we farmed, um, what we started small and then afterwards you, um, find more acreage. But we were, we never really own the land. We were always sharecropping. I think at one time we were paying on 25 acres, but I think we were able to keep it out, so. Okay. AT: 10:42 And how would you describe your experience of growing up there? JF: 10:46 It was fun. We enjoyed it. We, we, um, we, we had a chance to learn to drive early. You know, because you drive a tractor, you drive a truck and you, you, you know, as long as it' ; s all around just on the farm, I, you know, then, then it' ; s okay. And then later on we got our licenses. Um, and, and we were, you know, we worked in the fields, but it was fine. I mean, everybody worked, you know, as everybody works with like nothing new, it' ; s something that you just do, you know. AT: 11:19 And growing up. Um, so then was your, your life and your days mostly school, and then helping out on the farm? Did you do anything else that' ; s outside of that? JF: 11:32 Well, like, um, later on they built a community house, you know, uh, um, they call it the Rio Grande Valley Royal Club and it was made up by the Japanese Americans, um, farmers who didn' ; t get together very often, but, um, I think we all pitched in like $1,000 a piece or something like that. And they built this little, uh, meeting place. And so, um, Christmas or, um, you know, there' ; d be a couple of times a year is that they' ; d get together at this place and, and there' ; d be um, shows they' ; d put on and stuff like that, you know. And my dad would encourage us all to learn a Japanese song and they do the Obon over there and tried to keep up with some of the old traditions, cultural traditions, and then we' ; d get together also would go to the beach because the beach was only 20 miles away. AT: 12:26 So did a lot of Japanese American families resettled there? JF: 12:30 Um, some had been there for many years before we, you know, um, most, most of them were already there, when we got there. And, but there were scattered, you know, when you' ; re farming and you, you know, you won' ; t, you farm 25 or 50 acres, you know, then the next acre, you know, the next farmers is down quite a ways down the road. And so it' ; d be from many different city, I mean, different little towns and they could be a hundred miles away, but they' ; d all come together to get together just to have this cultural and AT: 13:03 Um, did you grow up speaking Japanese? JF: 13:09 No, very little. I mean, we' ; ve learned a few words, but mainly we spoke English. AT: 13:15 So you don' ; t have to worry about Japanese school or JF: 13:18 No, there weren' ; t enough people there to have a Japanese school. Yeah. And we ended up going to a Christian Church, actually, the principal of our school, um, in fact took us to, Christian Baptist Church there. AT: 13:38 Baptist Church? Um, and then so what, where did you go after being in Texas? JF: 13:44 Um, we, we stayed in Texas for 19 years. And like I said, we had good years and bad years and we were down to the last thousand dollars out here and paying off the mortgage that the man, um, was not a very kind man and he didn' ; t want to extend it. And then when you think about it, you know, $1,000 more to go, you know, you could just take one piece of equipment and sell that and that would give you $1,000. But he chose to go by the letter of the law, I guess, then just foreclosed and took all the equipment away at that point. And, uh, so when that happened, it was like the second time my father had been, um, kind of cheated, you know, I mean, the first time was when the government took everything away and you know, when he was doing well and he got away with it, like very little. And this time it' ; s, it' ; s because this man was not being um, very kind. And he wanted to go by the letter of the law and he just took everything. So, um, and my father just wasn' ; t in a, in a frame of mind to, he wasn' ; t, he wasn' ; t feeling that well and he, so he just became very discouraged and he, he just, okay, I give it up, you can have the equipment. And then by that time, my brother and I were, um, one of my oldest sister had gone back to California and she had worked her way through UCLA and worked as a school girl and she became a teacher and was teaching in California. And then my brother and I were born in the same grade. We graduated the same year. That we, um, uh, and um, so he said, okay, now you two kind of take care of the family and that, that was the year my youngest sister was born. So, um, so then there was, uh, seven of us left and my brother and I, we were just a year apart. So we were, we took over the household and um, and I mean the earning money for the household. So then we moved in, we gave up the, we, we' ; re only renting the farm anyway, so we moved into the city park. And then, um, we, um, got, uh, uh, a home through the, um, like, like, um, I don' ; t know, this inexpensive housing. And then, uh, so that we only had to pay like a very nominal amount, like one week' ; s pay to could, would pay for our rent, you know, and then the other three, three, we used to pay the other bills that we had. So, but we weren' ; t making a lot of money there. My, my brother got a dollar an hour as in construction work and when it rained, you didn' ; t work, you don' ; t get paid. And I got a job. My first job was 25 cents an hour as a, as a soda jerk. And it was costing more money in gas to go to the job and out. I was only given four hours of work, so that didn' ; t last too long. We just, we might, my dad said you better quit that job because you' ; re not making any money. So then, um, my, my next job was with the, uh, the local hospital as well as the admissions clerk and really on insurance reports. So I worked there for four years. AT: 17:04 And um, I' ; m so sorry and this was, um, this was close to where you were in Texas, but not in the same, not Los Indios? JF: 17:14 No, not Los Indios. It was about seven miles away to town, San Benito, Texas. AT: 17:21 And um, and are you, did you end up in Chicago? JF: 17:29 Um, we had, um, my dad had had, um, sent money back to his brothers and sisters in, in the, uh, in the, and my mother, in the meantime, my father, grandfather had passed away. He died in an accident and they were on in the Hiroshima area. So for awhile we were like blanked out. We didn' ; t know what happened to them. And fortunately they were in the rural area and they didn' ; t get injured by the bombing. And, um, but my, um, w when he, as soon as we were able to, we sent for the oldest one who was there, my, uh, my aunt and she came back, you know, we brought her back to the States and she stayed with us for awhile and then later we sent for an uncle. Um, cause there were three, three that had gone back. The first oldest, four of my father' ; s family were in the United States, but the youngest three were, went back with my grandparents and they had bought property in, in, um, near Hiroshima. And, and we first sent for the one aunt and she came back and then she, she, um, she stayed with us for awhile and then she got married and then my uncle came to Chicago. Um, I mean it came to, came to live with us for awhile and then he moved to Chicago because one of my other aunties we had, well my dad was the oldest. There was, um, a brother next to him and then two sisters. And, um, so one of the sisters, um, was with us in camp and then she went to Chicago. Because she had an opportunity to go to Chicago. And the, the other Auntie I came went to Texas with us and she, cause she, she was married and she had, um, they were farming with it, you know, with us, um. AT: 19:11 Do you know what that was doing in Chicago? What kind of work? JF: 19:17 I think it was office work. I' ; m not really sure what she did. I, it wasn' ; t professional, she' ; s not a nurse or anything like that. So I imagine it was office work. AT: 19:25 Sure JF: 19:25 Yup. AT: 19:27 And then so how did you end up coming to Chicago? JF: 19:32 Well, um, we were not making much progress money wise. I mean we' ; re here in this, um, housing project, you know, and so, um, I guess my, uh, uh, well we had sent my uncle, uh, I had to, to, to be with a Fussy, cause my aunt in, in, in Chicago said, you know, there' ; s all, there' ; s a lot of jobs out here. And so, um, he had, he had gone there and he, he, he had gotten married and all that too. And this is years afterwards. He had gotten married and he had had a family and he had bought, even bought a rooming house, you know. And so, um, he said, you know, I, I' ; ve got the rooming house, I, you have space for you guys to come up if you want to. So first my brother went and then I went, you know, and uh, and then, um, and then a year later we sent for the rest of the whole family and. AT: 20:29 Around what time was that? JF: 20:29 Um, well it was 1962 then I came here and then I think in 63' ; we sent for the family. AT: 20:39 Do you know where that, or do you remember where the rooming house is? JF: 20:41 It' ; s on Clark Street, um, near um, near Webster I think between Webster and Dicksons or something, no Webster and not sure exactly where, but around Webster and you know, within four blocks, either way of that, that area. AT: 21:03 For the folks that had that were in Chicago before you, so you said your, your brother left a little earlier. Um, what kind of work was your family finding? I mean, it' ; s very different from farming. JF: 21:18 He became an apprentice for a tool and die maker and he became a master tool and die maker. And he' ; s, he, he, he was very, uh, uh, respected. I mean he became a master maker, you know. So, and he, and it was a good, good paying job, but he did have to apprentice for like 10 years or something like this. It wasn' ; t that fast. And that easy, you know, he had to apprentice for a long time before he could start making money. AT: 21:50 And, uh, what was the general age range of your siblings who are coming up? JF: 21:56 Well, um, in 1962 see, my youngest sister was, um, when 1962 when she came, when she was five years old, the youngest was five, five to eleven. Well, I, when I came here, I was 21 when my brother was 22. And so there' ; s that age group, you know, on down to five years old. AT: 22:21 And I' ; m sorry if I missed this your parents, um JF: 22:22 They were, they were, uh, my mother' ; s health was pretty good, but she was busy taking care of the children so she couldn' ; t work, you know. And then my father' ; s health was kind of deteriorating. So that, because I think within a year or two after he came to Chicago, he suffered a stroke and he was, you know, he was partially paralyzed and he had difficulty, you know. Um, so he, he, he never worked after he, you know, when he' ; s, when they foreclose on the mortgage and all like that, he was not able to work after that. He just became so discouraged, I think. Um, it was just like, it was like the world was against him, you know? AT: 23:03 Um, so did they come in 63' ; with the rest of the younger siblings? JF: 23:10 Yeah. AT: 23:10 Okay. Um, and then how would you, do you remember your first impressions of Chicago, when you got here in 62' ; ? JF: 23:20 Well, yeah, we, we, we were kind of excited to come to a big city. It' ; s quite a change from, you know, a real role setting that we were in. And they said there' ; s all kinds of opportunities here. So we' ; ve got, we took the paper, I think I came in on a Thursday or Friday or something like this. I took the bus up here and I got to sit on the first sheet coming into, I mean, you know, the first seat next to the bus driver. And I stayed in that seat the whole time and we got to go, you know, see everything all the way in. So that was just exciting. Just, just the bus ride and then, um, came to Chicago and they did that that night. I think it took us to see the city the night, you know, the lights and all like that. So it was quite, quite kind of impressive. And then they said, okay, take a look at the, get this, be sure to get the Trib or the other paper, the Daily News and, and mark, whatever you think you can do and then, you know, go out on Monday morning and, and, uh, see if you can get these jobs. So there was about three of them, one that I marked and I thought I could handle. And um, and uh, by the time I' ; d finished on Monday, um, I, I, um, got two job offers. Yeah. And I took the one that paid more. It was like 75 and $85. So I, I took the $85 a week job. And this is compared to like, after working four years, I think I was making $50 a week over in Texas. So this is, um, you know, like a big jump in my pay. So AT: 24:50 And what kind of work was that? JF: 24:53 It was clerical also. Yeah. And Cook County Department AT: 24:57 What, do you remember the agency or the? JF: 25:02 Oh, it was a printing company. And I worked, I ended up working there for nine years and then the company went bankrupt. And then, uh, then after that, I, um, uh, one of the men who work for the company started his own business and it was, um, printing, but it also had to do with artwork and stuff like that. And he asked me if I' ; d work for him and I, I needed a job. So I, you know, and this job was going bank, it went bankrupt so that I, I followed him. And, uh, so I stayed with him for 21 years after that. And, uh, he, he became very successful and, uh, he was a very nice person. And, uh, um, and, and the company grew and now it' ; s called AGI incorporated and it' ; s a printing printing company. And they worked with um printing, not only um, like record jack. We were doing record jackets at the time. We were working with polygram records and then we did a Rod Stewart album and uh, different, well known people at that time. AT: 26:11 What was the original company called? JF: 26:13 Album, it was Album Graphics Incorporated. AT: 26:17 The one that went bankrupt? JF: 26:18 No Rapid Copy Service. New Speaker: 26:21 Okay. JF: 26:21 Yeah, no, the one that did well is Album Graphics Incorporated and then later changed the name to AGI Incorporated. Yeah, so. AT: 26:30 And uh, did you, did you attend church or were you involved in other activities when you were in Chicago? JF: 26:40 In 1962 when we came to, um, we were looking for a Japanese church, but uh we wanted to come to a Christian Church. And so they say, well, just go down the street here. So then we started walking out down Sheffield and um, ended up 10 blocks later at the church. It was Lakeside Japanese Christian Church. AT: 27:09 Yeah. And can you just tell me a little bit more about your, um, your experiences going to Lakeside? JF: 27:19 Um, well, it was a very friendly church and, um, bible-based fundamental Bible based church. Um, it was considered strict by, you know, uh, but, but the people were friendly, very nice and welcomed us so that we immediately felt right at home there. And then, um, I got involved with like, you know, the, the Sunday school and um, um, they had summer camps for the kids and stuff like that. And so you get involved and also learning to do became counselor at the camps and um, and get involved with Sunday school. And so you get busy doing kind of church work, you know, but it was, it was, um, and I was also taking night classes trying to, you know, work towards a degree. But then I, when we, our company moved out though to and I was starting working long, longer hours and, and so I didn' ; t stay focused on my, my schooling. So there no excuse for that. But I didn' ; t finish. I didn' ; t get a degree but I have about 70 hours of night classes and stuff like that. AT: 28:35 Okay. Um, at that time came to Chicago, uh, it sounds like you were reaching out and trying to tap into the Japanese American community here. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about what the community looks like at that time. Were there um, you know, certain neighborhoods or businesses or anything like? JF: 29:02 You know, we weren' ; t really outside the church, we did not socialize. We didn' ; t have time because you' ; re going to school at night, your, you have your family, you, um, you' ; re working, uh, uh, extra hours or something, you know, a lot of times. And so, and then, um, I did, I did get involved with like our Sunday school and then ended up like coaching, uh, uh, um, our younger, like eight year old girls in softball. Uh, and, and we had even a volleyball team and, um, and, and there was a group called the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association at that time. And, um, that was, um, a group of all different churches, different groups, you know, so I like, I was a member of this Athletic Association for it. And so we would play when we play we' ; d, we play against these other churches or other groups, you know. And so we, we played against them, Midwest Buddhist Temple and um, Buddhist Temple of Chicago, the, uh, we, we met the Devon Church of Jesus Christ. We, um, we met the, um, uh, Church of Christ Presbyterian. Yeah. So we met all these other churches and, and that really enlarged our, our AT: 30:24 Network. JF: 30:25 Network, yeah. AT: 30:26 Do you remember any of those teams to go out as being particularly good? JF: 30:34 Well, they were all better than us, because we were like the bottom of the totem pole, I guess. And for me to be a coach was kind of a laugh because I don' ; t really, I' ; m not a good sports person, but they just needed somebody to say, okay, run, you hit the ball run, you know, or, um, so I was mainly a cheerleader is what I was, you know, just okay, hey, you can do it. Well, let' ; s go out there and we, let' ; s, let' ; s try, you know, so, but oh going back, the, my main reason for wanting to do this was I wanted to tell you about this family, this, this Society of Friends who were, um, during the war. But while my mom was in camp and, and even after camp, this lady was very faithful in, in writing to us and saying, you don' ; t, not everyone, not all Americans. I think that how you were treated as fair, we believe that you know, that, that you are good Americans too. And that we wouldn' ; t encourage you to, to not feel, you know, that the world is, America' ; s against you. Cause we' ; re not, you know, and she would write letters of encouragement to my mom and she would, uh, she, I know she sent a subscription to a Christian magazine called, maybe it wasn' ; t Christian, but it had, you know, like very encouraging types of articles in it. You know, uh, uh, you know, upbeat and, um, and that is with Sunshine Magazine from published in Litchfield, Illinois. Yeah, I remember that. And we' ; d get the, the, uh, the magazines and that they would read them in and she' ; d write to my mom and, and there' ; d be all this encouragement, you know, so that my mom didn' ; t feel like she was like out in, left the law by herself, you know. She, it was nice to have this and she was a member of the Society of Friends, the Quaker group. AT: 32:29 And, uh, when did that correspondence start or took place? JF: 32:34 I think it must have taken place right when we went into the camp. Yeah. She just, I think they adopted families, you know, and this lady was adopted our family as, as the one to encourage and she was very faithful in doing that for many years. Even after we left camp, she, she still wrote to my mom and, and so they, and I think my, my, uh, one of my younger sisters went to visit her because she lived in Erie, Michigan. AT: 33:02 And what' ; s was her name? JF: 33:03 Um, it was a Wilbur Smith family. I' ; m trying to think, put her, her name was, I can' ; t even remember her name, her name, but she' ; s the one that did all the correspondence. And, um, so she looked her up and, and she said they were, they were very welcoming and, um, she had a nice visit with them. AT: 33:20 And how did you hear about that story that that had happened? JF: 33:26 Well, I would see the letters come and my mom reading them and, and, and I would see the magazine and I' ; d read the magazines, you know, who is this from them? Why? And they said, oh, well she' ; s a lady, you know, she' ; s an American lady who thinks that, you know, at that agrees that were, we were done wrong, you know, and so, uh, and she' ; s in encouraging us. And so, um, so I remember the see, seeing that. I just thought I' ; d, I, I want to let other people know that. Um, yeah, that act of kindness, I mean, it was, uh, it went not just for a day, it was for years that she wrote to my mom and encouraged her. It was a very, very helpful to our family. Yeah. AT: 34:17 Are there any other ways that you' ; ve described that impact that, that you maybe saw, it had on your mom? Or maybe impacting too? JF: 34:31 Well, it left us open to, um, knowing the kindness goes a long ways, you know, and but, you know, the, the, um, my mother was raised Buddhist and, uh, we were raised Christian. But I think the basic thing is that I think the Buddhists too, believe in you' ; re being kind and doing your best and uh. And the Christians, of course, they believe in doing your best and, and, and um and relying on God to help you with that. You know? And, and so I, I think, uh, where the Christians are a little bit different is that, you know, they, they speak as if God, you know, God is your helper and he' ; s always there for you. And I kinda liked that idea of God being there for us. And, and, um, and, uh, I couldn' ; t understand why Jesus had to die for us, that we could have also done it without him having to die. But, you know, that' ; s my stupidity where I am. But, but, um, but God loved us so much that he sent his son to die for us. And so, um. And so we figured we accept that then then, and, and he' ; s always there to, to receive, uh, to help us, you know? And so why, um, I believe that God is always there for us. That he is um that he loves us and cares about us, that he created us so that he, that were very special and that we, in turn, should return his love by helping and loving others around us. AT: 36:28 One thing I wanted to ask you was, um, of course you are, you are very young at the time of, um, incarceration. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your own experience and kind of learning about what had happened to your family? Was it something that was discussed or JF: 36:52 No, I, um, we have pictures of this camp, you know, and, uh, and I' ; m sitting in a little chair with my little Black baby. I have a little Black baby. And I said, Gee, you know, um, they said what that was given to me, by um, I don' ; t know if this, this lady might have sent that baby to me, you know. But, um, and, and she said, and and I was told that there are kind people, even though we had to stay in this place, that they' ; re still kind people in the world. And, um, and I knew we were different, that we' ; re not totally accepted because we had this one, one kid in school who go, " ; Nan, nan, nan, nan." ; You know, like, because I had slanted eyes and and not that I spoke a different language. But then the other other, uh, children who are also Mexicans, they said to me, don' ; t pay any attention, he' ; s ignorant, you know? So I had, you know, I could send some prejudice, but then I knew that not everybody was prejudiced. And so I had, I had these friends who were supportive of me, you know, and I didn' ; t know them very well. We were just in school, you know, and we, and we wouldn' ; t see each other very much. You know, as soon as school is out, we' ; re, we' ; re, we' ; re, we all go to our own homes, you know, but, um, because the houses are scattered, they' ; re not close together, but uh. The, the Mexican people that we be, you know, that' ; d befriended us and that have remained lifelong friends, uh, were very kind to us and, and they didn' ; t, they weren' ; t prejudiced and they were, you know, so, uh, we, we, we' ; re very, we' ; ve been very fortunate. AT: 38:32 Um, and then, and then about your, your family' ; s experiences specifically. . Did you ever have conversations? I mean, to get like the, did you grow up knowing like, um, our family came from this farm in California and then I went to, um, so San Anita and Rohwer? JF: 38:58 Yeah, I think we, we knew about it pretty, uh, right away. I think we knew we were different, were not, we didn' ; t fit in totally in, in, in Texas either. You know, I mean. But, so we knew we and, and, and how do we get here, you know, we knew all that pretty well since we were pretty young. AT: 39:15 And, and what about like as far as your own family' ; s experiences? So you told me about, um, some of the losses that you' ; re family experienced. Um, did you learn about that through your conversations with your parents about it or was it something that maybe you don' ; t recall exactly when you picked that up? JF: 39:38 Um, yeah. But yeah, it was through conversations with our family. My parents were open about it than some other people that you hear a lot of them saying that they didn' ; t say a word about what happened. But I guess because we, we were, um, my, my dad was pretty open about things and um. Well, he was Nisei, and see a lot of these other people, they didn' ; t speak about it because their parents were Issei. My dad was a Nisei, he was American born, and he was very open, more, more open than, um, than an Issei parent would be. Yeah. So they, we knew what it was like from day one. AT: 40:15 And what, what were, what was kind of their take on it? Or their position? JF: 40:19 Say, well, it wasn' ; t fair and a lot of it was, um, economically driven. And, um, so she said, you' ; re gonna find people like that in this world, but you can' ; t hold a grudge against them all. You know, you have to be forgiving for that type of behavior. You know, and it' ; s not everybody feels that way. Just like this one lady is writing to us, you know? So, um, and they said, you just treat other people the way you want to be treated. Just like that. You know, God says, you know, um, do onto others as you would have them do unto you. He believed, believed in the Christian teachings. And so that' ; s why we were allowed to go to a Baptist churches, you know? AT: 40:58 And, uh, and how about your mother? JF: 41:01 And my mother too, she was very, um forgiving, you might say, you know, and she says, I' ; m not, not, not everybody feels the way the government, what the government did was fair. And so we were, and then, and then here, now we' ; re, we' ; re working in, in a, in a different place to sit. We' ; re starting over again. Um, we have our health, we have that to be thankful for. So there wasn' ; t that, we weren' ; t under a big cloud all the time. We were, we were kind of optimistic, you know, have a chance to make it here, you know. And, and we did have some, a lot of good years, you know, it' ; s just that some things, I think what happened to us is that, um, we joined this, uh, Japanese co-op and, um, there was somebody at the helm who was responsible for making the calls. Like when you, you, you, we carton packed um, our lettuce. We grew, uh, we grew some lettuce on there too. And we had lot of good years and, but this time we carton packed it and we put it on ice and we took it to the railroad yard and the guy and told the guy, okay, it' ; s all here ready to go. And he, all he had to do is make a phone call and he didn' ; t do it. And uh, cause I understand he was fooling around. So anyway, that, that lost our, our whole crop just about, you know, and, and then so you have all these bills to pay and you have no income for it. So that put us behind. And then I think that a couple years before that there was a freeze, which, you know, kind of hurt your crop. And so that combination of things, you know, put us back. And that' ; s the reason why we ended up losing not being able to pay that bill. And so, um, anyway, but that' ; s in the past, in the anyway. Cause we' ; ve been pretty much optimistic that we' ; re going to get through this and you know, but um, and then so Chicago was an opportunity for us to make a do good. And Chicago at that time was really good in that they had the Illinois state scholarships for kids and like, all right, so the, um, of the four younger ones, they' ; re all college grads now. Yeah. And they, and they worked their way, basically, they worked their way through school. We said, you have to make good grades. So they concentrated on the grades. They also worked part time jobs too. But, um, most it' ; s a wonder that they all were able to go through college, you know, and, and part of it is because we had the Illinois state scholarships available for them and because they worked hard, they made the grades. Now I don' ; t know if they have any such things available for kids, you know, but it was important. And, and, and the classes that I went, I, I went to city colleges in Chicago. Um, it only costs me $5 a semester, a trimester this trimester to go to school. And I could take as many courses as I want to do for $5. Like, I don' ; t know. Chicago is still, yeah. And have that opportunity. AT: 44:17 No I don' ; t think so. Um, as we start to wrap up, um, I, I' ; m curious because I asked you about, because your parents were pretty open about their experiences with camp, and the war time, um, I' ; m curious to hear about what, what your reflections are or are your thoughts about, um, your family' ; s experiences at the time? JF: 44:46 Well, I think it was unfair and I, I' ; d hate to see that repeated. And, you know, and like they' ; re saying, you know, we, we should, we should be working together and hoping that that doesn' ; t happen to the Muslim people or any other people. Um, and we do have responsibility to help in that respect. And I' ; m, I' ; m very grateful to the Japanese Americans and others who fought for this, um, Redress. And my parents did not get to take advantage of that. They, they' ; re the ones that lost the most, they didn' ; t get a chance to take advantage of that. And, um, the four younger, uh, of our family did not get a chance to take advantage of it either because they were born after. But you know what? They suffered, they suffered also because my dad had been kind of damaged by this, by this, you know, that he lost, he lost the spirit and wasn' ; t able to continue after, you know, after the second time that, that he, you know, the circumstances, um, we' ; re kind of unfair. And He, when he wasn' ; t able to do, where do his do his work because it took his equipment away again. So, um, yeah. Anyway, I it, it' ; s, it' ; s a shame that they didn' ; t get compensated, you know, so that, oh, but, um, four of us did receive compensation and, uh. But I thought, I thought we' ; d deserved it because of what we had to go through anal. Like, cause my dad couldn' ; t work afterwards. We had a raise, you know, raise the family. Yeah. Um, so although the way everybody has to work. I mean, it' ; s not that we had that much more that do than anybody else. This system we have given. We had to do it sooner anyway. AT: 46:48 Um, before we completely wrap up, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that maybe we' ; ve missed in this conversation? JF: 47:01 Um, I guess the, um, God is good. He does take care of us. He loves us. Um, and I think we should, we should all be concerned about other people besides ourselves. Life isn' ; t always fair to everybody. So wherever we can do good, we should do, we should be trying to help other people. AT: 47:32 Well, thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to speak with me. JF: 47:37 I' ; m glad to do it. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FujiyoshiJane20171112.xml FujiyoshiJane20171112.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Fujiyoshi, Jane (11/12/2017)
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An account of the resource
Jane Fujiyoshi is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American who was born in California and incarcerated at Rohwer as an infant. She discusses her family's experiences leaving Rohwer to farm in Texas, where they lived for 19 years before eventually moving to Chicago. She recalls sharecropper life, the kindness of her Mexican American neighbors, and Japanese American community life in Texas. The Fujiyoshi family relocated to Chicago in the early 1960s, and Jane describes the challenges and excitement of establishing new lives in a major city.
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2017-11-12
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Goi, Mitsuo
Goi, Kikuno
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Kibei
Amache
Minidoka
Tule Lake
Oakland
New York
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Morton Steakhouse
OHMS Object Text
5.4 7/2/2017 Goi , Mitsuo and Kikuno (7/2/2017) 0:48:12 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Nisei Kibei Amache Minidoka Tule Lake Oakland New York Edgewater Beach Hotel Morton Steakhouse Goi, Mitsuo Goi, Kikuno Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/602254392/e5ba21753c Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/602254392?h=e5ba21753c" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Mitsuo and Kikuno Goi are a Kibei, Nisei couple who met in Chicago after WWII. Both were born in the U.S. but spent time in Japan as children. In this interview, Kikuno shares her experiences losing her parents at a young age, living in Japan with extended family, and in the United States in the foster care system. She recounts being sent back to the U.S. with her siblings just prior to the outbreak of war, and the emotional impact of being incarcerated at Tule Lake and Minidoka. Joined by their son Michael, the Goi's describe the challenges of establishing new lives and raising a familty in Chicago after the war. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Mitsuo Goi: 00:00 Oh, after parents came back to Japan, they had two kids one, I' ; m that one and the others living in Japan, Kibei, Kibei. Kikuno Goi: 00:13 He has seven brothers and sisters. MG: 00:15 Yeah. KG: 00:15 Three brothers came back- MG: 00:18 So this whole, my life story. KG: 00:20 -and the girls uh stay in Japan. MG: 00:24 So this, this country, oh boy, I have a camp in the way people that before me was, as I had to work, I was outside, I was working and go to school. Not that, you know, was, it very hard. Guardian was uncle. [inaudible] Anna Takada: 00:50 And so were your parents in MG: 00:52 Huh? AT: 00:52 -your parents were in Japan, during the war? MG: 00:56 Huh? KG: 00:56 Yeah, your parents. MG: 00:58 Yeah, after. You got seven kids, right? And a two, five were born in this country. So they, they' ; ve been working on the farm, well, they have five kids. You can' ; t house these kids in this country. So they sent all to grammar school and Japan, to grandparents. Grandparents, the grandmother was, a get heart attack or something. So she, they come back after five years, came back to Japan and then they would come back to Japan no more. They lived their lives in Japan. AT: 01:41 And, and where did you move to in the United States when you came back? MG: 01:45 Huh? AT: 01:45 Where did you, where did you move in the United States? MG: 01:49 United States, Sacramento AT: 01:53 Sacramento? KG: 01:53 He was born in Sacramento. MG: 01:53 Born in Sacramento so come back to Sacramento. I was guardian by my uncle. My uncle, he was in the, asked, looked for something for me to do. Okay, well I see. This is in the morning, it was seven to eight, nine o' ; clock, I go to school. After school went through, was it through afternoon, then by nine o' ; clock, by nighttime I wash the dishes, to keep my income coming. AT: 02:25 Do you remember- MG: 02:26 Huh? AT: 02:26 -when, do you remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked? MG: 02:32 Huh? KG: 02:32 Oh yeah. AT: 02:32 Can you, can you tell me about that? KG: 02:36 No Pearl Harbor. [speaks in Japanese] MG: 02:37 Yeah, yeah. Pearl Harbor, because, because we lived in Japan. They no talking about Japan fight, you know. Japan was 2500 years. It was in 1940, I came here 1940, I was 14 years old. My mom was, 15 coming in. I believe it was May 7th. So, so about, a month before my birthday, I came to here. Take the boat to from Japan to San Francisco. KG: 03:27 It was the last ship, you know, there weren' ; t any openings. You come back when the ship. MG: 03:28 Almost one month from Japan to here in the boat. That' ; s all my jumbo mumbo, I' ; m sorry, mixed up. But still likely, this much English I could talk. Because three years in the camp, you know. I didn' ; t have to work, I got to go school or high school janitor does. Class over, you know, clean up the room and anytime broken or something pull up the chair, open the door. Michael Goi: 04:05 So mom tell, tell her, what what happened. What did you think when, when Pearl Harbor was attacked in the morning when you were there. KG: 04:12 You know, I went back to Japan, my moth, oh my father killed. He was hit by a, he was riding the bicycle in the farming country, you know- AT: 04:24 In where? KG: 04:25 -in a California, just tried to find the land. There was no land, but uh, around um, Marysville. Somewhere around there, small, uh, farming down there, they settled over there. And then, uh, I have, uh, two other brothers, you know, and I was on last, one of them was born in 1928, and then when my father got killed, so my mother can' ; t afford to raise three kids, you know. So my uncle, my mother' ; s younger brother came with them, three of them came to, and he said, well, he worked on a farm, so he says, uh, let' ; s take the kids and go back to Japan because I, you know, my mother was kind of sickly and all the worry, so we went back. She didn' ; t, she didn' ; t even have the money to go back because, uh, that he, this guy hit my father. He said uh he wanted to settle out of court. You know, then he' ; ll give some money. But then, uh, you know, everybody said that, oh, he should put them in and take them to the court, you know to sue him. So she did and they lost, they lost the case. So she little money she had saved, uh, she had to pay that lawyer, so she didn' ; t have any money left. So my uncle paid all the fares, taking back to Japan. He said he would help, you know. And then, uh, we went back to Hiroshima, in the farming town, you know. And, uh, they had an empty house, and my uncle cleaned the house and fixed it. So my mother and the three kids lived there. Only half a block from my house, you know, so she was kind of sickly and overwork and went back to Japan and he was, she helped with the farm and everything, you know. And she died. She died. I was four years old, you know, AT: 06:26 And, and you were in Japan? KG: 06:27 Yeah. AT: 06:28 In Hiroshima you said? KG: 06:28 Yeah. So my uncle took us in his house. That' ; s where we grew up. And I was, I was, you know, only, only four years old. And um, I was afraid. My mother was alive, we used to use a fork and spoon. Well, when I moved uncle' ; s place, grandpa is like a samurai, you know. He, he watched some somebody, and I can' ; t hold up chop stick good. He used to hit them, you know, and knock them down because I, I always cry, cry, so scared, you know, and I' ; m so my auntie, you know, uh, always cares. So he get after my auntie, you know. You spoil her that' ; s why she cry. And so I when, when he died. I was so so happy. He was like a samurai, you know, he hate outside. So I grew up with my uncle and auntie. I just, I call them my mother and my father, you know. And then, uh, 19, 19, um let' ; s see, I came in 1941, in January. AT: 07:43 To the U.S.? KG: 07:44 Yeah, because my uncle knows that there' ; s going to be a war. 19, so he called my older brother, he was in city, you know, he was, fif, he was 15. Wen, went back to Japan. So my uncle took him to city, put him in high school and all that, you know, because there' ; s no high school in a farming town, you know, he had to go there. So he calls my brother and said, uh, explain to him, you know, he had a dual citizenship because he was the oldest. So we explained that, uh, you have citizenship, you know, too. So he said, you could stay, but your brother and your sister they, only have American citizen, you can' ; t stay here, it' ; s bad, you know. It was kind of fussy because government was always checking because we only had the, American citizen, you know. Finally he called my brother and said that, you go back to America first and then call your brother and sister to come back to America. That' ; s what we did. Like that uh, my brother came back in 1934 or something, you know, he had a hard life. He didn' ; t know anybody. He had no job. And he wandered around and met a bunch of same kind of guys, you know. So he joined a church because he loved to sing. And um, finally, 1941, January we came in that to, to takes uh, two weeks to get, you know, uh, ship, no airplane and ship and came, landed in January, um, 20 or something, you know. AT: 09:33 So that, that was after Pearl Harbor? KG: 09:35 No before AT: 09:37 In January? MG2: 09:40 Pearl Harbor was in December. KG: 09:41 Yeah, December. MG2: 09:42 Of the same year. KG: 09:44 Yeah, I came in January 19, yeah, AT: 09:47 Wait, January, I' ; m sorry. January you came January, 1941? KG: 09:50 Yeah. AT: 09:50 Okay. So that was before Pearl Harbor. KG: 09:53 And then a few months later, you know, we have to go into the camp. There was a, uh, 1942 in May. We went in the camp. My god, you know, I didn' ; t know where to go. No host. AT: 10:10 So what, what do you remember about, um, Pearl Harbor and that time? KG: 10:16 No, that time we were in camp. I said, yeah, well, no. MG2: 10:21 You weren' ; t in camp, until after Pearl Harbor. KG: 10:21 No, no. I didn' ; t know what' ; s going on because, uh, I was, uh, you know, my brother three years older than I. My older brother was in, you know, his, he didn' ; t have to go in the camp because he was in like New York or something, you know. So uh, I' ; m under age, so, so social worker moved us all over the place, you know, I was wandering you know, and you know, no worries so. So she, moved me to, my brother and I moved to a, uh, Methodist, uh, minister his wife different of the camp. It was to still Tule Lake, but different part it was. And then I stayed, I was so mad. I said, boy, you know, if I ever saw, I' ; m going to kill somebody. Hate, I had so much hate, you know, so they moved me to where they, I didn' ; t even talk. And one day this, a minister' ; s wife was doing a, uh, threading, you know, oh, I want to do that, you know, I said that. So right away she got the thing material. She teaching me how to do that, you know, oh, I was so happy. I started talking again. And you know, singing again up before I was so mad at everybody since I moved here, move there, you know, and I went and they had a place, a a in the camp, who showed you how to do it. So I went there, they said uh, no, I was 12 years old. You have to be 16. Okay. So I went to flowers and things, you know, and then they thing they say, well, same thing, you know. So I was moving around, walking around, look like zombie, you know, hate, hate, hate. Then I went to living with the minister' ; s wife. She teach me all this needle point. AT: 12:15 And, and which city was this in? KG: 12:19 This was in California. Yeah. AT: 12:21 In which city? Where? Where in California. KG: 12:24 California, Tule Lake, that' ; s the largest camp. MG: 12:24 Same camp I' ; m in. KG: 12:24 He came later, but I was there first. MG2: 12:24 Well AT: 12:24 Go ahead MG2: 12:38 Well, back up a little bit. So you' ; re in, you' ; re in California? You' ; re in Sacramento? KG: 12:43 No MG2: 12:43 No, before, before Tule Lake? KG: 12:46 Well, I was in us MG2: 12:48 Where, where were you when you heard about what happened at Pearl Harbor? KG: 12:52 Oh, I guess I was in camp already. MG2: 12:55 You were in the camp when Pearl Harbor happened? KG: 12:58 See, I came 1941 and I was living in Oakland. MG: 13:04 Even before I did. KG: 13:04 Oakland, I was in Oakland. And then the following year, 1942, we had to go into the camp. MG: 13:12 So that' ; s the time. KG: 13:13 Must have start MG2: 13:14 Yeah. But to December 7th, 1941 was when Pearl Harbor was attacked. KG: 13:20 Yeah but I didn' ; t know, I didn' ; t know. MG2: 13:20 Where, where were you? You weren' ; t in the camp yet? KG: 13:22 No. No, because, uh, no, I wasn' ; t in camp, but, uh, I didn' ; t know what' ; s going on, you know. And so, uh, following year, 1942, May, we all have to go to camp. MG2: 13:39 Yeah. But what happened? What happened there? I mean, uh, did they come and knock on your door and tell you, you have to leave? KG: 13:44 Oh, everybody knows they gotta move. MG2: 13:47 How? How? Well, what happened there? KG: 13:51 Well, we had to move out of the Oakland and then moved to Marysville. From there we went into the camp. MG2: 14:00 Who was with you? KG: 14:02 Oh, the Japanese family I was staying with, you know, and George, my brother and I, we moved to. So I didn' ; t even know there was a, you know, bomb or anything. Yeah, I know my son. AT: 14:19 So that, that second place you named, was that an assembly center? Did you, did you go to an assembly center? KG: 14:27 Was, yeah, in February, May that' ; s the assembly center. Yeah. Camp. That' ; s the largest camp. Yeah, Tule Lake, the called it Tule Lake used to be a lake I think. MG: 14:46 You know what, they segregate some loyal to this country, some loyal to Japan. Some went to Japan some sent back to Japan. Some loyal and stayed. KG: 15:03 Yeah, that' ; s how it was, you know, Tule Lake is by the thing. So anybody who aren' ; t loyal to America, they gotta go back. So I know some people went back, they said, uh, I said, oh, I wanted to go back to Japan cause you know, I just came here a few months ago. But they said no. The social workers said no, because my brother up there and only, I have my, you know, American citizen, so uh. AT: 15:30 So how, how did they know about loyalty? KG: 15:37 Oh, they had a big things. Yeah. AT: 15:41 So what, what things, how did? KG: 15:44 Oh, they had a like you know, like, uh, office, you, uh, uh, your, you want to, you know, you want to choose America or either Japan. That' ; s when they segregated and they Japan, they just shipped them back. And uh, Ameri, you know, even though this, uh, young men' ; s born in, um, born in America and was citizen, because they were Japanese American, they don' ; t trust them. Yeah. That' ; s why they have to, I know I got the movie, you know, you, when, they had to go through all this so many times, young men, throw the American citizenship. Said I' ; m going to, you know, even though they are American citizen, they didn' ; t trust the Nisei, so they have to, you know, pledge that I' ; m going to, yeah. That' ; s the way it was. MG2: 16:45 Move your hat. We can' ; t see your eyes. KG: 16:45 Oh, sorry. Yeah. MG: 16:45 She and I met, 61 years we' ; ve been married. AT: 16:58 Wow, congratulations. MG: 16:58 Can you imagine that? KG: 17:01 Can you imagine that? Yeah. MG: 17:05 After, I met her after I came back from service. My roommate was her brother was, you know, in the same building, you know apartment. KG: 17:25 Gave me a hard time. MG: 17:25 Only three years a difference. What was it? 80? KG: 17:31 I' ; m 88. MG: 17:32 I' ; m an 92. This is my son. My daughter' ; s over there too. This uh, I got two. Mitsuo doing okay. I got two kids. KG: 17:45 Yeah. You know MG: 17:46 They speak perfect English like my English is all jumbo mumbo. Good thing I had three years in the camp. Otherwise I would be completely washing dishes. MG2: 18:02 But we don' ; t speak Japanese. We know, benjo wa dokodesu, where' ; s the toilet? KG: 18:05 Yeah. MG2: 18:05 That' ; s the only thing I know in Japanese. Take move, move your hat so I can see your face. MG: 18:11 Luckily though. KG: 18:11 You know, it' ; s uh. MG: 18:12 I' ; m amazed myself. I' ; m able to live this long. my family no one live over 90. Youngest live to 86 or something around there, you know. And we have to, 92. We now in Japan, 12 years total, at 12 years. But when I was in grammar school. When I was younger, I was sick, sick every year, Japan, you know. But after I get, get, 12 years old. I don' ; t get sick no more, after that, after now. Japan, Japan 12 years. MG2: 19:00 Lean, lean this way. Lean closer to dad. KG: 19:03 Yeah. MG2: 19:03 Lean that way. KG: 19:05 You know, uh, Michael was telling me how the Japanese soldiers, Nisei, Nisei: Go For Broke and uh, that' ; s really tell you what' ; s, really happened. You know, don' ; t sign up. MG: 19:22 She, she' ; s about 17 parents, no, you know. Her parents died young. My father' ; s, lived to 65. My mother was 86. Died in Japan. KG: 19:42 So MG: 19:42 Yeah, it' ; s a long life you know. AT: 19:45 And so you left Tule Lake for Amache? MG: 19:49 Huh? AT: 19:50 You left Tule Lake and went to Amache? KG: 19:53 No, Amache to Tule Lake. MG: 19:56 Amache KG: 19:56 He was in Amache. MG: 19:57 Amache is, Amache is in Colorado. When they segregate, loyal and disloyal. Loyal and disloyal. Loyal to this country. Most dis, loyal to Japan, sent back to Japan. KG: 20:14 I don' ; t know how many people went back to Japan, but I know, I know a couple of girls, she said they were going back. I said, oh, I want to go back, because I just came a few months ago. But I was very unhappy. I didn' ; t know anybody. So what they ask is, you know, social worker. So at that time, they, uh, they moved me to the, this minister' ; s place, and I stayed at there, they' ; re separate, you know, there was this one, you know. So I was moved to Idaho. AT: 20:47 Minidoka. KG: 20:47 Idaho, Minidoka, yeah. And then my, uh, Episcopal priest became my guardian again. So, you know, I was still on edge. Oh you know, you need a tonsil. I had a real bad tonsil, tonsil, you know. So I said okay. So I had a tonsil surgery there. So, you know, I had so many [inaudible] and everything. MG2: 21:13 Mom, so when you were in Japan, you were in Hiroshima? KG: 21:16 Yeah. MG2: 21:17 So when, when you came to the United States, did the people you were with in Hiroshima, did they die in the bomb? KG: 21:24 Yeah, I think so. Some of them, because we lived in the country, you know. So that time, okay. But, uh, there was two girls no of them had a good heart you know. Someone in the village, parents died you know. And the brother had to war, uh Chinese and Japanese War. So two girls left at 13, 15 nobody wants to take care of them because of poor farmers, you know. So they always they take them in and then older, oldest one was 15 that, uh, when she became 18, she' ; s going to, she wanted to go to the city to look for job. And there was when moved out of this place, but the younger one was 15 so she, when she began 18 she, she says she' ; s gonna work with her, you know, sisters. But I think they died because of the bomb, you know. And uh, so you know, I mean move. They say, when do you want? I said, how many hours you have? I lose so much. You know, I was so much in the, I don' ; t know, you know, sometime I dream as, I can' ; t, I don' ; t know which one is my house, you know, I lost. So I told my daughter Frances, that' ; s not home for me anymore. I lose so much, ever since then, you know. AT: 22:53 So where did you go after, after camp? KG: 22:57 After camp? I had another one. At the camp, I wanted to, uh, I wanted to come to Chicago. I had a friend, I met that friend in a camp, you know, so, but then now, uh, I think, I didn' ; t know any English. So I went to school, but I didn' ; t learn any English. So, uh, my brother came from New York, talked to priest. What should you do? Take her straight to New York or send her to someplace, with an American family so I could study English. So they decide to send me to, you know, stay with an American family. So my brother went to, but he was three years older, but he didn' ; t stay too long. He went to New York. I stayed there a year and a half. And then I learned English a little bit. And there I said I want to go to New York, you know. So I got the job as a caregiver. She was a real, real nice lady. You know, she' ; s a widow and. But that didn' ; t like the men that take care of the house. Japanese men, you know. And uh, they had a couple of Japanese girls who before me, one girl was after the war girl, you know, sweet talking. I don' ; t like the sweet talking people, you know. So she had a fine mink coat, you know, this lady, rich family. Husband died of cancer and she uh, and these Japanese men worked for her, 35 years. She' ; s another one, you know, you kinda says things like, you know, I' ; m looking for, uh, tried to look for, uh, say something, chat together, give me that, you know, mink coat. You know, I got so mad because I' ; m not that kind of person, you know. And then I, I work and, but I think I worked about a year, year and a half, I said, oh, I' ; m gonna, I want to go, go to school. She cried, you know, I feel so bad. She was so nice. And the AT: 25:01 Where, where did they live? KG: 25:03 Ah, New York, Forest Hill. They had a home over there. And, uh, after I had left, she passed away, you know. She had a, um, she was sick, but uh, you know, um, nice down to earth kind people, kind of. I go in to buy a newspaper, you know, everything and uh, I see, uh, some, uh, artificial, not, not artificial, weeds or flowers. You know I picked it up and I said, look what I find over there. So she' ; s, she had a beautiful garden in the backyard, you know, but she doesn' ; t go out. She doesn' ; t see any flowers, you know. So I bring home little weeds and flowers. She said, it is so nice Kiku. You know, she, I get along real good. But then I, when I left she cried, you know, I felt so bad. AT: 25:57 So where did you, you said you left for school? KG: 26:00 Yeah, I went, I went to look for school and I lived there, and they sent me to someplace else. Why? Went through the door. Oh, that' ; s not a school. That' ; s a [inaudible] hanging all over the place. I said, no, that' ; s not the school. So come [inaudible], the girl said, no, no, come in, come in. Yeah, but I was looking for school, not the [inaudible], you know, I wasn' ; t. So she said, no, no, come in, come in. And uh, so she said, I show you. I was so afraid. What is this? I never had any experience doing that, or all that stuff. And I think I make a mess too, so. I worked a few months, a few months and I said no, I couldn' ; t do it. Yeah, so I said to my [inaudible], I want to go to Chicago and I want to go to school, you know. I had a, I knew um a couple friends from ah camp. I said, I want to go beauty school over there. Oh everybody, a first, first, can' ; t do this, can' ; t do that. All these people can do this. Then I got so mad, you know, I mean, I' ; m 19 years old and still they tell me, oh, you' ; re going with the wrong people. Yeah. The girl is no good because their parents are divorced. I said my god, I got so mad that I hit the woman who told me. She got mad. She got mad. She said [inaudible] you should be going around with the college student. I said, I don' ; t want college student, you know. So anyway, I got mad and she was hitting at me, I was hitting at her. So I came back and said my, my girlfriend, I stepped in and she said oh how did it go? I tell her, I said uh, oh, she was mad and I was mad, hitting the table. Well, I hit too. And I told her that her parents had divorce, meaning maybe scandal, you know, before the war. And what' ; s the difference I told. That' ; s a parents and she got nothing else to do you know. So I was screaming at her, she was scream at me. That' ; s why I got so mad. So I told that to my new roommate, you sure you want to live here? I said, yeah, I want leave here. I said, okay. But trust me, trust me, I said, you study hard, you graduate, you know, I said, okay. It was tough for her too, you know, because Monday, Wednesday, Friday, night school I had to go. And then, uh, it, during the day, I had a job, 95 cents an hour, my first job, so 5:00 o' ; clock I go downtown. 5:30 my class starts. I don' ; t get out til 9:30, you know. And then, uh, I' ; d take a, you know, bus home. Then I told my roommate, her, I said don' ; t bother cooking for me because you know I' ; m going to come home late. I pick up something. No, she always had a dinner cooked over there on the table for me. I just pick up and closed the door and you know, I needto study, you know. AT: 29:08 What, what did you think of Chicago when you moved here? KG: 29:13 Oh, I like it! Yeah! AT: 29:16 What, what did you like about Chicago? KG: 29:18 Well, everything was so cheap. Um only thing, I had to live with my sister in-law' ; s family because they, they are against for me to stay with my roommate, you know, so I had to stay with them for six, seven months, you know? AT: 29:34 And, and where did each of you live when you first moved here? KG: 29:37 Oh, uh, my brother, uh, my brother, three years older than I am, she, he decided to move to Chicago. He came to see me. He said, yeah, move, move. You know, he came to move and he got the uh, apartment close by, and then he and a few others became a friend, you know. AT: 30:00 Were you on the South Side? KG: 30:01 No, North Side. AT: 30:02 North Side. New Speaker: 30:03 Yeah. Like Clark and Division, around there. Yeah. AT: 30:08 Do you, do you remember, um, or did you use any of the like local Japanese American, um, like the Resettlers Committee or KG: 30:21 No, AT: 30:21 Viking Hall. KG: 30:21 I never, I never. It was so busy, you know. AT: 30:26 Working a lot. KG: 30:26 Yeah, working. And then like a Sunday, you know, it' ; s my, uh, sister-in-law parents, most parents who are real good to me, you know, and living with their never charged me point anything. So Sunday sat there all day, I got to go to school, you know, so Sunday I used to go Japanese, uh, grocery, I buy the sashimi, all this stuff. Taking it to the, you know, my, uh, she was so good to me. AT: 30:54 And so where, where did you two meet, in Chicago? It was in Chicago, that you met? KG: 30:58 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, my brother and him and a few others, you know, get together. They used to play ah Japanese hanafuda. That' ; s when I met him. MG2: 31:13 So dad, what' ; d you think when you met mom? KG: 31:18 Huh? You remember when you meet me? MG: 31:22 Hm? KG: 31:22 You, you remember how you meet me? MG: 31:27 Yeah, through your brother. KG: 31:30 Yeah, through my brother, Uncle Jimmy. MG: 31:33 I know his brother. Same apartment. KG: 31:37 Yeah. MG: 31:37 Cause we lived together. So you got a sister. So yeah, she' ; s getting old. AT: 31:45 What, was it love at first sight? MG: 31:48 Huh? AT: 31:48 Was it love at first sight? KG: 31:50 Love at first time? MG: 31:52 Oh yeah. I said I love you! No, Chicago I work, first in Summer House. Do you remember Summer House? You' ; re young, too young to remember Summer House. MG2: 32:07 That was like 30 years before she was born, Dad KG: 32:10 Yeah. Yeah. MG: 32:12 Edgewater Beach, Edgewater Beach House, never heard of? KG: 32:14 That' ; s the restaurant he used to work at. AT: 32:17 Edgewater Beach Hotel. MG: 32:18 Edgewater Beach, you remember? And now, Bank of America is over there. KG: 32:24 Those are way before MG: 32:26 Bank of America is over now. Used to be, a Northern Trust Bank. I was a dining room cook. So I did a good job being a cook lead. MG2: 32:38 You worked at Morton. MG: 32:42 So many cooks. MG2: 32:42 Morton on LaSalle. Morton Steakhouse. KG: 32:46 Morton Steakhouse you worked at. MG: 32:48 Steakhouse? KG: 32:49 Yeah. MG: 32:49 That' ; s on the. MG2: 32:52 Wells or something? KG: 32:54 Yeah. Uh, yeah, MG: 32:57 Steakhouse also MG2: 32:57 So that' ; s where I brought my first date. KG: 33:01 Oh yeah? MG: 33:01 Also Fish House, Fisher House MG2: 33:03 Yeah. Red something. I' ; ve forgotten. MG: 33:08 Yeah. Favorite place, I came out as a pretty good cook you know. Now, I can' ; t do nothing. This morning, I was making some kind of stuff. I don' ; t know what the ingredients are, I forgot. Oh my goodness. There' ; s just so many people but everybody is really MG2: 33:26 But after you retired from working, you, you just started painting. You never painted before and you' ; re really good painters. So where did that come from? KG: 33:36 Know MG2: 33:37 The painting? MG: 33:39 Huh? MG2: 33:39 You started painting. MG: 33:40 Oh, yeah yeah. Well, I' ; ve got paint [inaudible]. Now I see, Oh boy how could I have painted that? It looks so nice. KG: 33:49 He has so much time, you know, cause he, he was sleeping all the time and he said, you' ; re going to sleep all day. He comes home and I said, so I said that, um, after he, you know, I said, well, don' ; t you want to do anything? What should I do? I said, do whatever you want. You wanna just, he started going out of school, you know, senior citizens. And then, uh, he went, MG: 34:16 Now, now, I can' ; t do nothing. Where you take when you on the porch. That' ; s the enjoyment. KG: 34:22 Okay. MG: 34:22 And every time I go out the sun gets away, sun disappears, I have to come in the house. KG: 34:29 Well, you know MG2: 34:29 You have two children, you have a daughter who' ; s a nurse. A son who makes movies. MG: 34:36 He does a pretty good job. KG: 34:37 Yeah. MG: 34:38 He was on KG: 34:39 You know, we were very poor. Yeah poor. MG: 34:42 He' ; s a movie, movie maker KG: 34:43 Because when he came out. Before he went into a service, he was sending money to, um, you know, in Japan. Well, he went in army. He, uh, the company, I mean that straight to Japan. So he came out, he had nothing. Yeah. Nothing. We were very poor. MG: 35:05 How old are you now? MG2: 35:08 Me? 58. MG: 35:10 58. Oh, 58. Oh KG: 35:14 So you know MG: 35:16 He was born in 1961. KG: 35:17 Uh, so, uh, you know, my kids and they had a hard time. MG: 35:23 61 pretty soon. KG: 35:25 Because both kids who I went to go to college in the same time, I said, my daughter says, uh I want to go uh Loyola. I said okay. And then I don' ; t know where the money come. I don' ; t have any money. So she, she checked in my student loan, she got that and then she, uh, she bought the books. All used books. She never bought the new book, bookstore. And then, she took her own sandwich. And then one day, first day she went to, they charge her $1 for the drink. She said I' ; m going to take my own water. For four years never spending. AT: 36:09 Where, where did you raise your family? KG: 36:13 Chicago. Yeah. Oh, we moved a lot. Well, you know, his friend had a, I lived on the LaSalle street you know with my roommate. And then we moved to his, his, I didn' ; t know if it was his friend apartment. It was nice the third floor and all that. I didn' ; t like the, you know, uh, lady, woman, you know, she, she, she was so jealous. I can' ; t make a friends, in the same building, you know, she said, oh, she said this, I said that. Yeah, you know, made me so. And then my daughter was in kindergarten, and she had to walk so far in the wintertime, you know, close to Lincoln Avenue, all the way. So as soon as she, uh, finished, I said, I' ; m moving. She said, I' ; m not going to move, here' ; s my friend. I said you stay, I' ; m moving. Yeah, because you know, you had to. Uh, and then um, uh, where I moved oh, oh cause it was a small apartment, five, a room, just very, you know. And a kinda dark both side, because the building there. So pros together, but this Japanese man had it and you know, he said, I have nobody I lived there, uh, five months, or six months. Say I don' ; t care. And the school was a right cross street that, you know, she doesn' ; t, they don' ; t have to go too far away. And oh, kids are so happy, you know, and they could have anybody come over when I come home back home, what the kids did, they. I only had one room, room, the sofa, they sat on the floor. But they don' ; t care, they sat on the floor you know? So that' ; s how I did. He said, said, I' ; m not gonna move, this is my friend. I said, you stay, I' ; m moving. Yeah cause you know, because you got to think that' ; s his friend, he' ; s not home all the time. And you know, but I have to stay and then she complains uh, my daughter was small, but then she' ; s spilled the water on the floor or something and a third, third floor not much heat coming up, you know because there' ; s a opening there. If somebody downstairs stay open for me, the heat will come up. But some people, they don' ; t want to bother, they' ; d rather, in the winter, if it' ; s too hot, they open the window. And always so cool. I had a stove. [inaudible] winter time, all that time to heat up, you know, it' ; s a seven room apartment. So you know, I mean I, I don' ; t care if it' ; s a small, the kids are happy, that' ; s more important to me, then you know. So we had a bunch of kids come over, huh? So it' ; s five room, yeah, yeah, but you know [inaudible] okay. Huh? Yeah MG2: 39:13 Yeah. KG: 39:13 Yeah because I know that we couldn' ; t buy them a lot of good things, you know, cause we didn' ; t have too much money. But he gets a good money, good credit, I give him a dollar and then, he buys a record or something, you know, he writes music, you know, and uh MG2: 39:29 Well you asked me, you asked me when I was eight years old what I wanted to be when I grew up. KG: 39:35 Yeah. MG2: 39:35 I already loved movies and I said, I want to go to Hollywood and I want to make movies. And you said, well then that' ; s what you should do. KG: 39:42 Well, you know, MG2: 39:43 And then you got me ah that used eight millimeter movie camera. KG: 39:47 Yeah MG2: 39:47 You know. KG: 39:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. MG2: 39:49 And now I' ; m in Hollywood making movies. KG: 39:51 So I' ; m glad, you know, and that when they graduate, you know high school, okay. And, uh, I asked my daughter, you know. Uh, she said she want to go to Loyola and I said okay. He wants to go to? What? MG2: 40:07 Loyola Nursing School. KG: 40:08 No, you. MG2: 40:09 Oh me? Columbia College. KG: 40:11 Columbia, he went to Columbia. MG2: 40:11 Cause it was cheap. KG: 40:11 Finished the [inaudible] you know. And so everything worked out okay. Well, they got to suffer too, you know, I never could buy them a lot of the things. Which is why I gave them a dollar, you know. But uh, yeah my, my daughter never complained too, either. She knows in a way. And she was uh sixth or seventh grade, you know. I had an old sewing machine, I helped her buy because I, this young guy was trying to make extra money taking orders. So I thought, oh well, we buy that. So I had that, and then she started sewing cause I couldn' ; t buy any clothes. I had [inaudible] all the time, you know. And she buy material and she started sewing bras for me and she buy, make some clothes for herself, you know. So, yeah. Yeah. They had a hard life, but you know, who doesn' ; t? That' ; s why she, she' ; s a real good house cleaner. Yeah. AT: 41:14 If, if you could leave any, any message or legacy for your, your kids and your grandchildren, what would you want that to be? KG: 41:25 Well, I think they' ; re doing perfect. Yeah, they got a good, his wife too, Gina. Yeah. Good head. I don' ; t have to worry about them. My daughter too, you know? Yeah. She' ; s the one that tells me, when I' ; m wrong and this and that. She knows, you know. AT: 41:45 And how about your grandkids? KG: 41:47 Oh, they' ; re wonderful, yeah! Yeah. Real smart, they, they love coming to Chicago. MG2: 41:55 You two always tell me, you know, this is America and you can be anything you want to be. KG: 42:02 Yeah. MG2: 42:02 You know, which is a big statement for people who had all of their freedom KG: 42:08 Yeah. MG2: 42:08 and property and everything taken away from them. KG: 42:10 Yeah MG2: 42:11 What, what gives you that attitude that this, this in this country, you can be anything you want to be. When you were not allowed to be anything you wanted it to be. KG: 42:20 Yeah, well, you know. MG: 42:25 We' ; re taking too much time for you. KG: 42:26 We spend too much time? AT: 42:28 Oh no, not at all. I was just making sure the shot was okay. MG: 42:32 Talk, talk nonsense. KG: 42:35 Yeah, you know. AT: 42:37 You' ; re a nice lady. KG: 42:37 I figured uh, I mean uh, you can tell. You know, um she' ; s like my daughter was sick. You know, I had to go to work, I wouldn' ; t pay to send him for this doctor and the wife was a teacher. So if I didn' ; t work, she can' ; t go to work, you know, so, and the was kinda, you know, sickly and I show her. Uh, you take the temperature and the, the temperature if they go up that' ; s right, you give him one baby aspirin. No, he, she used to tell me, don' ; t worry mommy. I' ; ll take care of Michael. He was, she was so small, but I, you know, I had to go because otherwise I, she can' ; t go to work, you know, so uh yeah well, sometimes, you know, he gets sick and at that temperature, and I told them, thermometer if, if it, uh, go up there, uh, give him a one baby aspirin. Okay. Don' ; t worry mommy, I' ; ll take care of Michael. Yes, she told me that' ; s the best child. She was. Every time she comes she take my blood pressure. I said, don' ; t worry, you worry to much. She said know you because of that, I' ; m having problem, you know? But, um, yeah. And then he has a good wife too, and I' ; m very, very proud. MG2: 44:05 Yeah. Uncle George asked me before he died if I was gay because we had no children. KG: 44:11 Yeah. Yeah, my brother, you know he' ; s been dead ten years now. My brother, the three of us and how old was I? You know, yeah. My older brother came first. He was born in 1919. And then uh, he was in New York, he was in New York. And the last 27 years he worked for Japan airline. He loved the job, you know. And uh, so I went uh, and he died. He had a cancer. That' ; s a very [inaudible], you know, and uh, yeah, he had a rough life. The, the his first wife. Oh, she was something else. Yeah, nothing, you know. So the funeral came, she wouldn' ; t go. She, she said she wanted a divorce. She took the kids and moved to Los Angeles, you know. And so they don' ; t, she met this Irish girl, uh, she worked for airline, but uh different airline, but the same building, they have office over there. So, you know, she was very nice. I liked her, you know. She was outspoken like me, you know. And uh, so they went honeymoon to Japan and all of that. And my first sister-in-law, you know, she' ; s she' ; s, I don' ; t know. I met her in camp, you know. But then, uh, uh, she says, uh, she, oh, four of them came together in New York. And two, so one of the guys said to me, who' ; s going to say a few words from family. And then, uh, or I said I look around, you know, I figured one of the boys would uh, you know. Two boys and a girl and the four of them came from California. So I thought, well, somebody, somebody say they say let Michael say. You know, I was shocked. One of her sons should say it because it' ; s their father, you know. Well the, he says, you know, he, went he and the three other uh, boys who went, a week ago, drive to New York, you know. Got all the t-shirts and the dirty jeans other there. Stayed in the old, uh, apartment, you know, hotel. So they didn' ; t have any, uh, good suits or anything. So he said well, you were shocked too you know? MG2: 46:45 Yeah. KG: 46:46 Yeah, he was 18 just out of high school, you know. He said, let Michael do it. Huh? I says hah? Did you say that? Mommy, I don' ; t know what to say. What do you want me to say? She wanted me to do that. I said, gee, I don' ; t know what to say. Just say a few ones. You thank you for coming. You know this stuff. Two days. You did a wonderful job, because you know it' ; s supposed to be a funeral was Saturday and I, I wasn' ; t there Monday and she came Tuesday and supposed to be Saturday. had a everything all planned. [inaudible] and everything. No, she say she came and say, I want the funeral Thursday. Two days a later. They have to do all of it again, because my son have to work. He says I want to do it Thursday. That woman, I tell you, I' ; ve never, you know, she wasn' ; t like that way in camp. Ugh. MG2: 47:47 Well, now we' ; re getting into the gossip. KG: 47:49 Huh? MG2: 47:49 You should introduce yourself. You didn' ; t introduce yourself. You didn' ; t say who you were and, and you know where you were born and stuff. AT: 47:55 What' ; s your name? KG: 47:59 What? Yeah? MG2: 48:01 Tell her your name and where you were born. KG: 48:03 Oh, my name is Kikuno, Kikuno Goi. And, uh, I was born in Colusa, California. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoiMitsuno_GoiKikuno20170702.xml GoiMitsuno_GoiKikuno20170702.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoiMitsuno_GoiKikuno20170702.xml
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Goi , Mitsuo and Kikuno (7/2/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Mitsuo and Kikuno Goi are a Kibei, Nisei couple who met in Chicago after WWII. Both were born in the U.S. but spent time in Japan as children. In this interview, Kikuno shares her experiences losing her parents at a young age, living in Japan with extended family, and in the United States in the foster care system. She recounts being sent back to the U.S. with her siblings just prior to the outbreak of war, and the emotional impact of being incarcerated at Tule Lake and Minidoka. Joined by their son Michael, the Goi's describe the challenges of establishing new lives and raising a familty in Chicago after the war.
Date
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2017-07-02
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hamade, Bill
Interview Keyword
Japanese Canadian
Toronto
Vancouver
Vancouver Island
Lemon Creek
Jasper
Duncan
Hillcrest Lumber
Sansei
Yonsei
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/19/2017 Hamade, Bill (8/19/2017) 1:03:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Japanese Canadian Toronto Vancouver Vancouver Island Lemon Creek Jasper Duncan Hillcrest Lumber Sansei Yonsei Hamade, Bill Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/304435618 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/304435618?h=79f348af58" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Bill Hamade is a third and fourth generation (Sansei/Yonsei) Japanese Canadian. A retired librarian with 31 years of service in the Toronto Public Library stem, he discusses his lifelong interest in Japanese Canadian history and family history. He describes his paternal and maternal families' immigration histories, their incarceration at Lemon Creek during World War II, and his own experiences growing up in Toronto in the 1950s and 60s. He also describes the difficulties he has encountered in researching these histories both in Canada and in Japan, and his motivations for pursuing this research. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Bill Hamade: 00:00:00 My name is Bill Hamade. I' ; m 68 years old and my hometown is Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Anna Takada: 00:00:07 Okay. And, um, can you tell me just a little bit about yourself, where you' ; re from and, um, well we' ; ll start with where you' ; re from, where you, where you' ; ve been. BH: 00:00:24 I was born in Toronto. And my parents met in the 50s. And I went to public school high school there. I went to university outside of Toronto in a city called Waterloo and also London, Ontario. I returned to Toronto as a librarian and, uh, I worked as a library in the Toronto Public Library System for 31 years. Then I retired a couple of years ago when I was 58. And, um, one of the things that relate to this is that I really wanted to maintain or look at my family history and I made that kind of a lifetime thing that I' ; ve been doing and it' ; s opened my eyes to a lot of things, but not only for the history of the Japanese Canadians, but also the personal stories that my own family had done, had gone through. Um, with their experience in Canada from the late 1890s, right up to the present day. AT: 00:01:34 And can you tell me about, um, how and when you started to get interested in, in this history and starting to do your own research? BH: 00:01:45 I got interested in the history a little bit in high school, but in university I have a history degree. I decided in my fourth year, not my third year, to start doing information to do research on the experience. Uh, one of the first things I did in my third year was I did the use of newspapers as a propaganda tool for, uh, interning Japanese Canadians. And what I did is I took all the national papers from Vancouver all the way to Halifax to see how many articles and what kind of reporting would be done on the community and how it also of course, was the results and the attitudes of the public at large to the internment. And the need to in their eyes or whether it was something they didn' ; t think was really necessary. Then my fourth year, I, uh, did research on the internment itself, but also on the, um, possibility of, uh, Redress. And, um, I met with a couple of fairly prominent Japanese Canadians. Ken Adachi wrote a book called The Enemy That Never Was. I spoke to him about doing some primary research at the, um, the National Library of Canada and, and the other information that we might have within the community. The other person was George Tanaka who was a, um, uh, a person at the time, following the war, with the Japanese Canadian Citizens League I believe it was called. And they had at that time, already, started the movement towards trying to find out and trying to, um, uh, have advocate for getting Redress or, or some kind of compensation for the Japanese Canadians. As well as looking at having the Japanese Canadians be able to go back to Vancouver, and to the, um, the West Coast. But that was impossible. The government would not let Japanese Canadians go back within a hundred miles of the West Coast. So that was the kind of thing that I would research. AT: 00:03:59 Even are you talking about during the. BH: 00:04:04 This is the 1950s, actually in the 50s, that they were already looking at the injustice and then coming up with ways of doing this. And I believe the Japanese community also had the, um, the, um, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the, um, there was another group, the in Canada, that' ; s called a CCF party. It' ; s a Canadian Cooperative Federation, which later became the new Democratic Party. It was a, a left wing party, but they also advocated for the Japanese Canadians and they were also trying to try to achieve justice for them as well too. So they provided lawyers and legal, um, information and support from the community. So I, um, was very interested in that type of thing. When I did this research, it was before 1988 before the Redress Movement. So I, um, was quite interested in that. I didn' ; t get as involved in the Movement itself. It looked like there was a lot of people in there already doing it, but, um, it was always that kind of thing. Uh, and that of course also sparked, spurred my, um, uh, continuation of wanting to do family research of all too. So as I said, it was over 30 years ago that I started doing this. And, uh, I probably didn' ; t ask my grandparents, my parents enough questions cause it was, it was fairly hard for them. Though my father, who had been 24 when he was interned and was a Japanese National. He, uh, was not one of the ones that was as bitter as say, some of my, um, other uncles and aunts who were born in Canada. Although my father had come to Canada, when he was 10 years old. Um, were very, very, some of them were very bitter about what had happened, justifiably, but that' ; s what happened. AT: 00:06:03 Um, and before we get into your actual family story, I do want to ask a few more questions. Um, so when you were, when you were growing up, um, was there any kind of, uh, what, what was the extent of this particular history being included in, say, a U.S. History class or, you know, was it, um, was it publicly, did people know about it or? BH: 00:06:40 I don' ; t think people really did. Um, I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think I knew until later on in high school when you hear kind of things about it and the book The Enemy That Never Was, came out, I believe in the 70s. And so that did draw some attention to it. Also in Canada, the War Measures Act, which was the act that they used in Canada to intern the Japanese had been, uh, involved by, uh, Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, Justin Trudeau' ; s father, uh, to deal with the problems that were happening in Quebec. And, um, and I think that' ; s when it came out that it' ; s not, things happen again. And so, um, uh, my understanding is that' ; s when it kind of came to the forefront again. Um, the Japanese Canadian community also had celebrated a centennial in Canada in 1977. I think that in the multiculturalism, um, in Canada seemed to be developing quite a bit then. So people were looking at the roots again and seeing the kinds of things that were going on. And that' ; s probably how I' ; d gone into it as well too. I didn' ; t and I realized, oh, this happened to my father and all my grandparents and uh, and that was kind of, um, uh, a little obviously a shock, but then it, it, uh, to answer your question, it really didn' ; t come out. I don' ; t think in the education system that has the later, of course, and I, and probably the same as in the United States, but, uh, it' ; s something that, uh, we would never know. I even know to tell my own son now that this happened to his parents and grandparents, and I have friends, contemporaries of mine, that never realized. I remember someone a few years ago that had no clue that my parents have been ah interned. AT: 00:08:42 Um, does that mean, um, you didn' ; t grow up talking about it with your family or you didn' ; t? Did you learn about it through school and then you started inquiring? AT: 00:08:53 Um, my father was at much, much more open about discussing it and uh, which I found interesting, but he, that was just his personality. He wasn' ; t driven to tears. He just talked about the whole situation. He became an advocate, I think of human rights and labor rights, and I firmly believe it was because of, you know, he was, he was really looking after the underdog. Um, and so I, I think most of what I got was starting with him, my own kind of, um, studied all of this because of my history background. But then of course it did come out afterwards. It did become, I think, part of the educational system and something that was just there with the multiculturalism part of it too. AT: 00:09:43 So that means that you first learned of it through your family? BH: 00:09:46 I believe. Yeah, yes. AT: 00:09:50 I know this, I know that' ; s a long time ago. You might not necessarily remember. BH: 00:09:56 It was 40 years ago, I guess over 40 years ago. This all started coming up. Yeah. But I' ; m pretty sure that' ; s the way it was. AT: 00:10:06 Um, so if we could move into, um, what you' ; ve learned about, about your family history. I would love to hear, um, what you maybe start with what you knew from your family just from, from conversations and things like that. And then maybe we can go into what you found from your own research? BH: 00:10:29 Okay. Um, through my own family, I, the most of the information as I said, came from my father. He, um, told me that he was in a camp, in an internment camp in a place called Lemon Creek, which was in the Interior British Columbia. And he had also worked in road camps because he was a Japanese National. The government in Canada said on February 26th that they were going to do this with, with, uh, with the community. And he was shipped out on March 2nd. So literally four days later he was sent to Jasper, Alberta, which is now a National Park, but he was there on a road camp and he was only there for three months because there was a big flood. And then he said that he was sent back towards, the internment camp in Lemon Creek where his parents and his younger siblings were. He had, he told me, one of his brothers who was not very happy, with the whole situation had been sent to a more of a, another detention camp where the, the Japanese who were not being cooperative justifiably so, to Ontario and it was a different kind of work camp. And um, other than that, he would say that his youngest brother who was born in the camp in 1941, and uh, he was 24 years younger than my father. My father was born in 1917 and came, came to Japan in 1928. And there was some of the other things that my father told me. So that came out in relation to the Japanese National thing where he, it was his experience and was quite unique his parents of course were in the same boat, but he was a young person that was doing this. He also. AT: 00:12:23 So his parents came as well to the U.S.? Oh, I' ; m sorry to Canada? BH: 00:12:23 Um, yes, my, uh, his mother came in 1919 and his father around the same time as well too. So they were, my grandmother I think was only 20, 21 when she first came to Canada and my father was, uh, her grandfather, my grandfather was 24 then they went back cause my, my father stayed with his grandmother until 1928 my grandmother went back and brought him, brought him to Canada. And, um, my grandmother' ; s grandfather had also been to Canada, which I didn' ; t know and he came in 1899 and already had and had some fishing boats and my father worked on these fishing boats. So they were, that was most of the story of, of the family that I got from him. Um, my mother' ; s side of the family was different. I don' ; t know if you want me to speak about that. Um, my mother, um, was born in Canada on Vancouver Island in 1920, 1923. And at that time, the Japanese community wasn' ; t as structured on the island as it was in Vancouver. And, and it wasn' ; t just there but everywhere. A lot of Japanese children were sent back to Japan for a proper education. And so she was taken back by her mother in 1926 when she was three years old to their hometown and in Fukuoko Ken in a small village called Kurume. And, um, so she, she lived there, but her parents and her two sisters stayed in Canada and, uh, uh, they were, my grandfather worked in a, um, a lumber camp in a place in Duncan and was called the Hillcrest Lumber. And there was a lot of Japanese Canadians that had, had done that and there was a lot of Japanese Canadians who were born and raised or worked on Vancouver Island. And they were interned as well. And, uh, coincidentally they also went to the same, um, internment camp that my paternal grandparents went to and they had, they had not known each other at that time. So that was an interesting coincidence. Uh, just as a little funny story, when my grandmother, my maternal grandmother met a, heard that my father was going to marry my mother, I guess she had known him from the camp and said, I don' ; t like that guy. And so it was, uh, it was, it was a interesting thing. And then I, but my father didn' ; t go into much detail about that and my four grandparents really couldn' ; t speak very much English. And I think they had probably more of a harder time because they had built all their lives and, and uh, I think would have been difficult to talk to them about that. I remember my maternal, my paternal grandmother had kinda just waved her hand like this, and they' ; d lost a couple of stores in Vancouver and all the channels and the car and um, these were to my grandparents just built it up over 24, 25 years and well over 30 years. And my great grandfather lost his fishing boats as well. And so that was, that was all the stuff that I had found out more through the family. Afterwards, when I started to, uh, look for information. Uh, some of the information wasn' ; t available still because it was still protected by privacy because none of the people were still alive. But there were a lot of things from, I think, believe it was called the enemy cus, enemy property custodian in Canada. So I did find out some of the things that had happened with some of their, um, what, what they had actually lost. But when it came to the family history, that' ; s when I started doing things like finding out that my great grandfather had come in, it looks like in 1899. But he was also granted not as citizenship. I' ; m trying to remember what the term is for that, for Japanese. But in 1903, he was granted that. And the reason why was that the candidates were putting pressure on the government to give the Japanese this, because they couldn' ; t work as commercial efficient and unless they had this status. So it wasn' ; t, it was only economic wasn' ; t for the, uh, the right reasons. And, um, I think that, uh, what I found out afterwards were things that my father actually had his personal documents as well too. And so that' ; s how I found out a little bit more about what had happened. A lot of these documents I found after the Redress because they had to draw all these documents together. And that' ; s how I found out some of the other things where he exactly had gone. He had not gone into the detail about this, but I was quite surprised of where he had been shipped. And I' ; m focusing more on my father because he' ; s the younger one who was being sent to different camps in different lumber companies as well to do work. And of course, the interesting thing of course was that the paid, uh, my father, the Japanese to do this, but they also took out room and board as well too. So it was, uh, I was an interesting thing and when I looked at a couple of documents and I said, okay, so you paid them this. But by the way, we need the money to say, well, here' ; s where you lived at for where you lived and what you ate, which was well, we can symbolize our own opinions on that. Um, and um, really that' ; s, that' ; s when I started finding out, looking through city directories but also some of the documents in the, uh, the National Library. Just what my, where my grandparents and my father and my uncles and aunts had lived and, and the different places they had gone within Vancouver. And, uh, just what, what it was that they had worked for and what they had lost. So, um, what I' ; m trying to do now is doing the research of what' ; s gone on, what went on before they came to Canada. And, um, that, that, that, um, through, uh, work that my, uh, my son is doing is finding out what, what has actually happened in the small town that my great grandfather and my grandparents and my father came from in [Mio?]. And, um, and this is scary because it' ; s being done through Kyoto University and all the information is being interpreted for me because I don' ; t have Japanese language skills. And, and I think a lot of, uh, uh, Japanese Canadians of my generation are in that same boat as well too. And, um, so, uh, just the other day I found out that my great grandfather died in 1954. He had been repatriated back to Canada because the Japanese Canadians were given the choice of either going back to Japan for a free ride or coming East, uh, I guess on their own, on their own ticket to, uh, settle in, uh, wherever else in Canada except for that a hundred mile limit. And he had gone back in 1946 when he was 70 years old. The poor man had lost two, two boats. He' ; d been here for over 45 years, and just didn' ; t think it was more, was he gonna do, he was gonna live with his, uh, his, uh, daughter and son-in-law that they, they were already stretched from, from this bad experience. His wife, also, I should throw this in, because it' ; s something else I' ; d research too. She' ; d come to Canada in 1926 she had stayed in Japan while he was here. One of my aunts, and this is an interesting story, said she was a bit of a womanizer. So they said you better come over and it was sad because she came in 1926 and then she died in 1928 in Vancouver with, of cancer. And um, one of the things I' ; m trying to find out is where she' ; s buried because I' ; ve seen her death certificate with the British Columbia records, but it said, she' ; s buried, but I' ; ve been looking at records at um, uh, a cemetery in Vancouver called Mountain View, where a lot of Japanese and Chinese Canadians have been buried, but I can' ; t find any records right now. So I' ; m still trying to find that. Um, but my son actually, um, was shown by her husband, my great grandfather' ; s gravestone in [Mio?] And he died in July of 1954 which I did not know until about a week or so ago. So, um, we are trying to find out any information going back a few generations from that as well too. I have a picture of my grandmother with her, her grandmother, my great, great grandmother and I don' ; t know anything about her other than the picture. And I know it was taken in Japan because my mother' ; s wearing the kimono and her mother had known that her grandmother had never been to Canada. So it' ; s um, that' ; s still the thing that I' ; ve got through personal papers but things that um, um, have come up through, um, the Japanese Canadian National Museum and I guess other institutions will have this where I' ; m starting to find information about my family. So it' ; s a, it' ; s an interesting journey. Uh, uh, just hope I live long enough to see if I can bring it a little bit closer and we are looking for a koseki as well too. We think we may have one but we know we' ; re going to see if we can get one of those as well. AT: 00:22:36 I' ; m sorry what? BH: 00:22:36 A koseki. A family history, so. AT: 00:22:40 So, so for, forgive me. BH: 00:22:44 That' ; s okay. AT: 00:22:46 I' ; m putting this together in my mind, but were your parents still alive, um, when you began doing some of this family research? BH: 00:22:58 Yes, they were. Yeah. My father had died, uh, in 2006 and my mother died in 2009. Um, my mother didn' ; t know as much because she was in Japan as I had said, but she didn' ; t come back to Canada until 1951. Again, the governor wasn' ; t sure if they were going to let them back in. There was still that thing going on as well too. My grandmother also went back to Japan after the war and they were giving her a hard time about coming back to Canada. She was already been granted citizenship, but it was, I guess it was one of those things where, you know, no, we were not sure. And, and it was because the government still wasn' ; t sure what they wanted to do with the Japanese. And um, so when it came to talking to her, there wasn' ; t much of a Canadian experience and my grandparents had long died. And again, there was a language barrier and both of my aunts had passed away before I was even born and one had died in Japan. She went back in the 30s and died there. My other one died in Toronto in 1955. But they, they had my, the one that died in Toronto plus my two, my grandparents had gone through the experience, my other Auntie died in the 30s, so she had. And so, um, my mother didn' ; t really know too much and unfortunately because of the war she couldn' ; t come back. So she had stayed in, uh, Japan up to, uh, as I said, 1950, 1951. She did tell me stories about the war where she saw B29s flying over her village every day, dropping little metal sheets that said that would jam radar and send you down propaganda paper about, you know, should surrender that the war is over and this kind of thing. And it was funny because my brother and I, when we were younger, had built or build model airplanes and she walked by one day, she said, " ; Oh, it' ; s the B29." ; My brother and I looked at each other. We were only 12, 13 years old and not realizing that she had actually seen a B29. So I always joked with her and I said, " ; Well how could you tell from the top because you' ; d always see them from the bottom." ; She just laughed and she said she, it was interesting because she talked about the high pitch sound that they had made. So they knew that the B29s were coming way before. They had never, they were never bombed. She was in a farming community. Uh, but uh, she had heard about the two atom bombs as well and she heard the Emperor' ; s speech not really seeing they' ; re going to surrender, but, uh, it was the first time she had heard, uh, the Emperor' ; s voice. So you always hear about that in history. And my mother actually talked about that and uh, that' ; s without me ever saying anything. She just said she remembers in the village they all listened to a few radios. AT: 00:26:03 Have you looked into your mom' ; s family' ; s history? BH: 00:26:08 Yes, I have quite a bit actually. Yes. Because they lived on the island and they, it was more rural. It was harder to find things. So city directories it would get, there wasn' ; t very much there. Um, her older sister who had been born around 1918 or so had, um, worked as a housekeeper in Vancouver I think in Victoria. Um, in Duncan for, I think, a fairly wealthy family. I just, and her husband, after she died in 1937, I still had a scrap from her. And um, I found when I found her marriage, her marriage certificate online finally, uh, it had been released. That' ; s the first time they ever found out what the groom' ; s name was. So I googled it, found his obituary, sent an email to the, um, uh, the funeral home, just benefiting who I was and saying if there was any members of the family who may want to contact me or I' ; d like to contact some, what I' ; d like to hear from them. And a about a week later, so one of the daughters had contacted me from the second marriage cause my, uh, the gentleman and my, um, aunt had, didn' ; t have children. She died when she was 19 or 20, and they had been married in Victoria, BC, went back to Japan and she died. He came back to Canada I think, um, after the war remarried, but it kept some photo albums that she had. And the family sent me that. So it was very interesting. Um, there was everything from pictures of my aunt with his family. And um, then I also found out that she lived in Victoria a little bit longer cause then I had a family name [Koga?] and that helped me find more information. But, um, if you look in city directories, a lot of times they' ; ll just say Oriental they won' ; t say names and things like that so it was, there' ; s a lot of people with that last name, I guess. Uh, but there, um, it, uh, it kind of closed the book on that because we had never known. And the ironic thing is when my aunt had died in Japan, she was probably no more than 50 or a 100 miles away from where my mother was, but I' ; m not sure they knew or they may have known, but, um, they wouldn' ; t have known really known each other. And my mother left when she was three. My aunt was more Canadian than Japanese cause she was born in Canada and went through the education system. My mother was the exact the opposite. So, um, I did find out a little bit about that side of the family if it' ; s not the same and unfortunately because my grandparents and my grandparents didn' ; t have the language skills. But also I think, uh, it was something, I don' ; t think they, they really wanted to talk about. But I mean, I think the same with my paternal grandparents. It was just really tough. AT: 00:29:43 And were you, um, when you look back at those, kind of, the start of this journey of exploring your, your family' ; s history, um, and also the particular history of the Incarceration and experiences during World War II. BH: 00:30:04 Right. AT: 00:30:06 Um, if you, if you had to try to pinpoint what, um, inspired that or inspired you to do that work and, and what, what has, why is this important to you and what, what' ; s been the kind of the driving force, if you could name it? BH: 00:30:29 I would think it' ; s personal. There' ; s no question about it. I think having the history background probably had me thinking that way a little bit more. But obviously there' ; s a lot of people that don' ; t have the history background that have the genealogy personal part of this that I think they want to find out. And uh, one thing that does make it difficult I think are the language skills. Being able to communicate at the time. And as we talked about earlier, just the educational part and not knowing about this, this had happened. Um, I, I think that, um, I lost my train of thought on your question, again. I' ; m sorry. No, so it was, can, can you repeat the question about it? AT: 00:31:16 Yeah, I' ; m just wondering if you can talk a little bit about what has inspired or motivated you to, um, yeah, to start and continue this journey. It' ; s been 30 years as you mentioned. BH: 00:31:29 Yeah. I think what' ; s inspired me is so it' ; s not lost. I think it' ; s important that, uh, my son quite grateful that he is embraced this and he is really interested in it. But I, and I would like to think that future generations, whether it' ; s our family at large or people who are in the community and people who aren' ; t in the community realized that this had happened. This is how it affected people on a personal level. Um, and uh, even in Canada, there were many times where it was, it' ; s not gonna happen again because we' ; ve always had different immigrant groups come and we had the Vietnamese boat people were that, you know, just like the United States has as well too. Of course, currently there' ; s a hustle that thinking again, I know my, uh, my son who was fairly politically active said, " ; So what' ; s the difference between what' ; s happening with the Muslims now and what' ; s happening with my, my family?" ; And, uh, so I think just preserving all of this history and, uh, just the fact of making sure this kind of thing never happens again. I think are the, are the important things to, uh, ensure to, that' ; s, that just doesn' ; t happen again, but at the same time, on a personal level, it is just a, the memory of the family, uh, making sure that, um, future generations know, as I said before. AT: 00:33:23 And so do you just have one son? You have other children? BH: 00:33:26 Not I just have one son and I have a brother and sister as well too. And uh one of my sis, my sister lives in San Jose and my brother lives in Toronto, we do. Actually I live in Pickering, which is outside of Toronto. But, uh, um, I think I' ; m very proud but also happy that my, my son does see the importance of this is really taken a role in, um, gone back to his roots, literally gone back to where his great grandparents and, and beyond have come from. And, uh, I have visited there myself, but I' ; m obviously going to make the trip back again to just to, uh, be able to, you know, come full circle with it. And uh, I' ; m glad. And, uh, um, but I think that the people in Japan also have seen this history now too, that Japanese Canadians and Americans from their communities had gone through this experience. And, uh, with a different kind of wartime experience than what they had. But I think it was important for them to realize this as well too. And I think that this is something that, uh, that they' ; re seeing because I, I can see on this, like my great grandfather, he came back and who knows if he talked about it, uh, would know that this happened. And I think that the fact that this is all coming to light now with the Internet and that as well too, I think people are gonna realize worldwide that this did happen in Canada, in the United States. AT: 00:35:15 And what kind of advice would you give to people who are interested in, um, a similar kind of work? Of um, research documentation, preservation? BH: 00:35:34 I think, not to give up. I think you, the most important thing is to talk to your relatives. I, that' ; s, I think one of the rules of genealogy and a family history is talk to the people, they' ; re going to, they' ; re going to tell you things that you' ; re never gonna find any documents. Um, and just from listening to what they say, then you' ; re gonna know maybe which documents to go to. And it' ; s worth, I think that' ; s the thing that I would say to it' ; s worth it. It takes a lot of time. But, uh, it' ; s something that you shouldn' ; t forget. It' ; s, uh, you should be proud of, you should be aware of and perhaps, um, as time goes on, um, future generations could even do more research so you can start the journey, but it may be finished afterwards, but I think people in your family in the future would appreciate what you' ; ve done in the present, so what you' ; ve done now. AT: 00:36:54 And um, what were BH: 00:37:05 You can ask anything AT: 00:37:05 Sure, sure, I' ; m just trying to think of how to phrase this question. BH: 00:37:11 You won' ; t hurt my feelings. AT: 00:37:14 In your, in your opinion. Um, why, why is this, why is this history important? Why, why is it, is it crucial for everyone to know about? BH: 00:37:38 So I think so because I think a lot of people have different stories and experiences, especially in the United States and Canada with the immigrant experience. And, uh, there' ; s different stories, but I think that the, the stories, um, should all be told so people understand each other to this is the history that people in Jap, Japanese community came through the Chinese community with head tax. And the Jewish community was not being able to, um, weren' ; t allowed to come into the country. Middle Easterners, Muslims. I it, I think that' ; s the important part is that the history that the experiences aren' ; t necessarily exactly the same, but there' ; s still the experience. And I think that' ; s something that people have to be proud of. If you look back at the new people that are coming to the country now, but the past months and just the kinds of things they went. And I think it also molded the way, um, the country has become, the countries have become, whether it' ; s through government laws and legislation and so on, or if it' ; s just people' ; s attitude and, uh, uh, understanding of what people have gone through. Uh, hopefully again, and I know I said this earlier, but some of these things don' ; t happen again and that, um, we learned something from them. You know, I think that' ; s, in my opinion, I think that' ; s one of the most important parts. We' ; ve learned, mutual understanding. You see where we' ; ve come from, let' ; s go forward, let' ; s go forward positively. Let' ; s remember all these things that have happened, but let' ; s make it, make sure that we' ; re progressing and going the right way rather than going back a couple of steps. AT: 00:39:33 And on that note, what are some of your wishes for the future generations? BH: 00:39:42 Well, the unique thing well, of course I, I think, with any kind of, not a statistical wizard, but I think that, I think the Japanese community has done is, they' ; ve shown through intermarriage and through, um, having, um, this experience, the understanding of different cultures, but just looking at people not that way just as people and, and um, and yet say, well, we' ; re not, I think our grandparents might' ; ve been more concerned about us wandering down the system just because they were, they had that different kind of approach to what the Japanese were. But, um, I know that, uh, I think out of all my 20 cousins, I think only one marriage another Japanese, but all the rest had not. And I, and I realize that it' ; s part of the experience that the community had gone through. But I, um, also think that I look at the Japanese community is doing it now, but you, but now you can walk around anywhere in the states and Canada and you can see that people are friends. It doesn' ; t matter if they' ; re Black, white, yellow, Brown, whatever, that, that, that is starting to happen. And I think that' ; s what I hope and I, and I can see that the, the future can bring that, that it doesn' ; t matter that that doesn' ; t become, uh, uh, something that affects the society at large. I hope. AT: 00:41:28 And this is kind of going off to a different topic, but it just made me think of this. Um, I' ; m curious about what, what your experience has been with, um, the Japanese Canadian community? Was there, were you raised in, what kind of communities did you grow up in? BH: 00:41:54 You know, it' ; s kind of funny because when my parents bought their first house, the first house, their house in Toronto when I was born. So I guess the first house where actually, the second one in the suburbs of Toronto. Um, they moved to an area where everyone was a war vet. The Bentley' ; s, the Patterson' ; s, the Riley' ; s, the Chapman' ; s. Um, and I remember, uh, my friend' ; s mother saying to me once, she said, you know, when your parents moved in in 1957, we didn' ; t know what to expect. All we knew that was just Japanese family. Knew nothing about Japanese, never met a Japanese person before. All they had heard was through the newspapers, through their war experiences. My understanding is that none of them happened to fight against the Japanese. They all, fought in the European theater. But, um, so I was born and raised into that community just like my uncles and aunts who were Japanese Canadians. And I knew Oh Canada. I knew, I knew hockey. I know, I knew things that were Canadian. I also had things from my Japanese, uh, um, background as well too, cause my mother had been in Japan, but it was a nice mix and I wasn' ; t doing one. Now I know what I had mentioned are people that seem to all be of English or Scottish or Irish descent, but, um, there were also people that were Italian Canadians, Greek Canadians as well. And Toronto was starting to become that, I think in the 1940s and 50s and 60s, where it was starting to attract a lot of immigrants from different cultures. And, um, so to answer your question, I think there was that different that well that angst I guess with the community, uh, just on the street. But I remember when, uh, one of them say, well, your parents were the nicest people. They were respectful. They, you know, they really looked after their gardens, not the stereotype, but they were really ah nice, gentle people. And so it' ; s that thing about the preconceived notions and actually living with people that I think really came out of it. And, you know, don' ; t get me wrong, I still experienced a lot of, uh, uh, prejudice when I went to school. Um, there was a couple of other Asian families and a Black family and, uh, it was, I think we all know it was a different attitude in the, uh, approach in the 50s and 60s called a lot of different names. And, uh, you know, the war had only been over for 12 years at that time as well too. So when you think back now, uh, 9-11 is been longer than than what I had experienced when I was in a suburb of Toronto at the time. And so, um, uh, it was that, but as time went on, and I think the years went by and, and just the different interactions that we had with different people, I' ; d like to think that, uh, it was just change and it was like one other Japanese family that, or Greek family, whatever. It was a kind of thing. And I think as the, that generation of, of children started to get together, it didn' ; t, it didn' ; t seem to really matter. You know, we all played hockey on the street or we all went to the movies together. Or we' ; d play baseball at the school yard and that kind of thing. So. AT: 00:45:44 Did you know of any Japanese Canadian families? Growing up? BH: 00:45:44 We did. Um, partially because of the, uh, family friends. So friends that my parents had met, whether it was in Vancouver, British Columbia or was here in Toronto because, uh, the community did try to do things still together. They, uh, try not to, uh, I remember one gentleman said there was, uh, three, three couples, three Japanese couples of we' ; re going to a movie in Toronto. We all took separate street cars. And when we got to the movie theaters, we all sat in different areas of the theater cause we didn' ; t want to be together. And this happened in the 50s. So, um, you know, the, there was that, but, um, oh gosh, I have lost the question again. AT: 00:46:38 Did you grow up with other Japanese? BH: 00:46:38 Oh, right, yes. And so, um, and um, one of them, um, one family they' ; re uh, I' ; ve, I' ; ve still stay in contact with they' ; re very good friends of my, uh, my parents. And I go fishing and I still take, uh, uh the family. Some of the wildlife I catch and things like that, but it' ; s, um, I guess it' ; s kind of trying to preserve what my parents had as, as, as with families. But really it was more coincidence or happenstance, I guess if a Japanese families also lived in the same community and went to school with, with you because some of these other families were throughout the city. So it was more that personal apartment than there was within the community there, there was a couple more. Yeah. But we didn' ; t really, you know, it was just like another friend kind of thing or someone else you didn' ; t like. AT: 00:47:40 So, growing up, how would you describe your, um, relationship with your or your understanding of your own personal identity? BH: 00:47:53 Well, I was reminded all the time I was different. There' ; s no question about that. Um, but, um, for a personal identity, I, you know, proud as hell of it. So, you know, it' ; s, uh, uh, it' ; s something where, um, you know, maybe my, my son or, you know, and hopefully future generations aren' ; t gonna forget that their Japanese heritage, but they also embrace being Canadian. And, uh, well my sister' ; s American now and it' ; s, um, I guess it' ; s something that' ; s there in, in a way being a visible minority. I think it' ; s a little bit different because you are reminded constantly. But, uh, on the other hand, it' ; s uh I think society has seen it more as a, as a positive now. I mean, sushi places on every corner, isn' ; t there? But, uh, uh, you know, with the Japanese can we have a cultural center, we have national museum now and I think it' ; s great. So it' ; s not just the Japanese that I, I, I hope all of the different, uh, uh, uh, peoples that are around, develop that same kind of thing too. You don' ; t, you don' ; t forget where you came from. Don' ; t forget your culture. I think it' ; s important for other, uh, communities to see that culture and experience, you know. It' ; s great to have all of these different foods. It' ; s great to have these different dances, music. So, so on and so forth and then it also sparks interest and maybe going back to that country as well too, whether it' ; s Japan or somewhere else where these people come from and understand just what has made them the way they are and then uh, helps you understand more what, you know, what their background, how they are, kind of thing. AT: 00:50:09 I just have a couple more question. BH: 00:50:15 Yeah. AT: 00:50:15 As we wrap up. Um, what would you say were some of the, if you, if you could name them what some of the greatest impacts that the Incarceration experience had on your family and maybe yourself personally as well? BH: 00:50:36 I think the biggest impact was that they had to move from BC to Ontario. They had to start all over again. I think when they started seeing the difficulty other new immigrant groups were having or that they were going to make sure that there wasn' ; t going to be any problems with that. Um, you know, there was the economic part as well too. I know my, my grandfather worked, um, well gosh, he would' ; ve been in his 50s when he' ; d run stores and did things with fishing in that for years. And then all of a sudden he' ; s putting bowling trophies together or things like that, or just doing things to make ends meet. And um, really what it was, it was starting over again. And, um, being hadn' ; t been through the education system or through the government or just through society. I think that was a big impact. But I think moving to, cause moving from the West Coast and BC is a lot different than Ontario is. And uh, um, when you' ; re in your 50s, I think it' ; s a big thing. So I' ; m talking about my grandparents obviously, cause I think they had the most as far as, um, as a personal property and then that type of thing as well too. And they invested, invested all their life in, into Canada. And they wanted to stay. I know when I looked at passenger lists that they intended to stay, they did not, they did go back, but they wanted to stay in Canada. They wanted to make it better for their kids, for their grandkids and for beyond. So I think that' ; s the impact that the, um, the families did, you know. And I don' ; t think we' ; re unique in that regard our family. AT: 00:52:29 How about intergenerationally? BH: 00:52:31 Well, I, I think it' ; s the same thing. Um, the reason why, and again, I' ; m just speaking from my own family, but, uh, as I mentioned earlier, I have over 20 cousins and they have, um, children as well too. And uh, some of them are involved in things with the community. One of them does a, is the editor of, uh, of a, uh, a national Japanese Canadian paper and she' ; s a fourth generation Japanese Canadian. AT: 00:53:07 Which paper is that? BH: 00:53:07 The, The Nikkei Voice out of Toronto. And Kelly' ; s working on that. And I think, um, when I, when I talk to my cousins and, and, and I think their children, I don' ; t talk to them, but I think they, I think they realized just how important and how interesting the family history is. And I, and I think, you know, you' ; re always going to get people who aren' ; t going to be really interested in that, but you will get ones that are. And I think intergenerationally, I think there are members that are, I' ; m hoping that it goes, as I said earlier, keeps going. But, uh, until the whole story is told and I don' ; t think it will be a bestseller. But, but at the same time, I think it, uh, it' ; s important and, uh, it' ; ll be interesting to see how the Japanese community continues on, as, as we continue to become, uh, integrated within society. AT: 00:54:18 And I know I caught you before you were able to really get into the Chicago starting Resettlement in Chicago. Um, at some point I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on a comparison of, of that migration, uh, that many Japanese Canadians experienced. And then what happens in the U.S. BH: 00:54:46 From, so most of the Japanese Americans I guess went from California to Chicago and, and yeah, wherever else. AT: 00:54:53 Yeah, and so the way it works here was, um, Chicago took in the most people BH: 00:54:59 Oh. AT: 00:54:59 Um, in part because there was a labor shortage. BH: 00:55:02 Right. AT: 00:55:03 Um, it was considered a more, a liberal city or accepting. Um, but you know, folks also went to Cleveland, Jersey, New York, Detroit, just anywhere these. BH: 00:55:18 Big cities. AT: 00:55:19 In the Midwest and East Coast. And, um, the, the WRA, um, I forget the name of the kind of Canadian equivalent of the overseas, the group that oversaw the entire process of internment BH: 00:55:37 Um AT: 00:55:38 As part of the U.S. military. I just read it this morning. Um, but it was, it seemed like a similar, similar, um BH: 00:55:48 You mean to the, the AT: 00:55:49 Departments BH: 00:55:50 Yeah, you mean the department that helped that decided the ones who we' ; re going to be repatriated and the ones that were going to be sent to these. It wasn' ; t really citizenship. I' ; m trying to, it might have been labor. Could it be labor? That they were involved at one time, different ministries were involved as this whole situation evolved and so, and there was different things as well within that too. So, uh, gee I think I' ; d remember. AT: 00:56:26 But um. BH: 00:56:26 No, I am very interested in that. I mean that' ; s why when I saw this exhibition online and fortunate that I was able to see it, I really wanted to find out more about the American experience. Cause I knew about Manzanar, I knew about as I said, Tule Lake. And the 442. I knew about the regimen as well. Daniel Inouye, he was ah in Hawai' ; i? AT: 00:56:51 Mhm. BH: 00:56:51 He, uh, he, he had fought there as well too. Um, and I remember my, my father had mentioned that as well too. And then there was also in Canada, there was also a regiment too that uh fought. There were more interpreters in that, but still in, you know, but the point was of course they wanted to, and there was also ah in Vancouver, a WWI Japanese, uh, monument to the war vets who fought in the First World War in Canada/ Britain at the time. So, um, no, I, I, it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s interesting the parallels, but also some of the differences as well too. And uh, I believe our Redress happened, just, just after the ones for United States. Ironically, it was, uh, the government conservative government in Canada, and I think they were the government that was really pressuring the, the liberal government at the time to do something with the Japanese. So, you know, it' ; s good having the apology, but still, unfortunately everybody, I think just like in the States or a lot of the people that really should have heard of it. And benefited from it did this, was kind of too late. But at least it was, it was given so. AT: 00:58:17 Yeah, um. And the, I' ; m, I' ; m not sure about Resettlement of Canada. But that' ; s also something that typically has been excluded from the greater narrative of the Incarceration. Where the um, you know, oftentimes the most basic narrative is people were evacuated, relocated, went to camp and that' ; s kind of where the story ends. But for so many people, because you know, in California that are barred from returning, um, immediately at least. So, and a lot of people participated in this indefinite leave program. So it was a very orchestrated effort that the government, you know, wanted to break up these communities and in large part it was successful, you know. Many communities where we' ; re isolated and I don' ; t know, sometimes it just, it blows my mind that' ; s such a huge migration is kind of written off, and not really BH: 00:59:31 And then in the States, I believe there was over a 100,000 Japanese Canadians ah, Japanese people, but in Canada there' ; s was only 23,000, 24,000. And, uh, uh, you know, and I think that was part of it was breaking up the communities. They did not like Japantowns or, or, or being the hard workers in the fishing industry and working for less money. And, uh, trying to make ends meet and so on and that, but I think there was a social part of the economic part, let' ; s face it, I think was a big part. And so is political too, there' ; s no question about it. But uh, uh, you know that goes back to we just don' ; t forget that happened, that' ; s all. And in, in Canada it was Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg. Some people did go because they were farmers to Saskatchewan, in Alberta as well too. So there are still quite big communities there and uh they have cultural centers or some kind of thing going on as well too. And the East Coast, I shouldn' ; t have been excluded them, but I don' ; t think there' ; s much there. And a lot of people have gone back, obviously a lot of Japanese have gone back to British Columbia. My father said he' ; d love to have gone back, but his life was in Ontario now. So there' ; s another impact as well too. I mean he just loved it. And some of my cousins are there now, they moved back, you know, so. You know, part of it is it' ; s a lot better weather, but it' ; s also, I, I think they a appreciate what their parents, our grandparents had gone through too. So I suppose that part' ; s good too. AT: 01:01:17 If you could leave any message or, or legacy for your son, for generations to come. What kind of messaging would you want to leave them? BH: 01:01:32 I think um, not to forget. Not to forget that this happened, but also, um, the preservation of the family. And, uh, don' ; t, never forget where you came from. And uh, and just keep that message going forever. AT: 01:01:59 And is there, anything that I might have missed or that you' ; d want to add before we wrap up? BH: 01:02:03 Oh, goodness. Um, I don' ; t, I guess the only thing is, um, I guess kind of regretting that, uh, the personal stories maybe got missed from that generation that were most effective. Um, it doesn' ; t mean that the Nisei should not be interviewed as well. I' ; m sure that that is happening, but, uh, it' ; s, um, it' ; s better than the not doing it at all. And I, uh, you know, as a third generation/ fourth generation, I, you know, I' ; m, I' ; m retelling stories that I had heard from that about my father' ; s generation anyway, not so much from my grandparents, but, uh, researching it and I' ; m hoping that I can tell the story that way as well too. Uh, I think that' ; s what we have to keep doing is just, if you don' ; t tell the story yourself, it' ; s going to get lost. AT: 01:03:09 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to. BH: 01:03:09 Well, thanks for having me. I, yeah, I know it' ; s not, uh, I, I, well, I think it is so similar story to what happened in the United States. But, uh, um, again, I, I think it' ; s great for our community to realize what we experienced on both sides of the 49th as well too. AT: 01:03:30 Thank you. BH: 01:03:30 Okay. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HamadeBill20170819.xml HamadeBill20170819.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Hamade, Bill (8/19/2017)
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Bill Hamade is a third and fourth generation (Sansei/Yonsei) Japanese Canadian. A retired librarian with 31 years of service in the Toronto Public Library stem, he discusses his lifelong interest in Japanese Canadian history and family history. He describes his paternal and maternal families' immigration histories, their incarceration at Lemon Creek during World War II, and his own experiences growing up in Toronto in the 1950s and 60s. He also describes the difficulties he has encountered in researching these histories both in Canada and in Japan, and his motivations for pursuing this research.
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2017-08-19
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hasegawa, Aylen
Interview Keyword
Puyallup
Minidoka
Rockford
Chicago
South Side
Restaurants
Chicago Resettlers Committee
Sansei
Redress Movement
Heiwa Terrace
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/6/2017 Hasegawa, Aylen (10/6/2017) 0:37:13 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Puyallup Minidoka Rockford Chicago South Side Restaurants Chicago Resettlers Committee Sansei Redress Movement Heiwa Terrace Hasegawa, Aylen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/302187491 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/302187491?h=73ddc976de" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Aylen Hasegawa was born on February 19th, 1942 ; the same day that President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 allowing for the incarceration of Japanese Americans. He recalls what he's been told of his mother raising four infants in the Minidoka camp, the family's experiences in Rockford, and his own memories of growing up on Chicago's South Side. He reflects on the values of hard work and responsibility imparted by his parents, and shares his thoughts about the importance of contemporary efforts to preserve and teach about incarceration history. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 Great. This is an interview with, uh, Aylen Hasegawa: 00:06 Aylen Hasegawa. AT: 00:06 Aylen Hasegawa, uh, as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago resettlement experience oral history project, the oral history project is being conduc-, conducted in line with the current exhibition: " ; Then They Came For Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII and the Demise of Civil Liberties." ; Today is October 6th, at about 5:30 PM and we' ; re recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Aylen Hasegawa is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. So now that that' ; s out of the way, um, you just start by stating your name, your full name. AH: 00:45 Okay. Uh, Aylen Hasegawa. AT: 00:48 And can you tell me a little bit about, uh, where you were born? AH: 00:53 Yeah. Well, in my case, it' ; s a little ironic that I happened to be born on the very day that President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, February 19th, 1942, and at the time, uh, our family, the Hasegawa family, had a farm, uh, near Puyallup, Washington. So we were relatively close to what eventually became or declared as the assembly center, uh, for persons from primarily Washington, Oregon, uh, and all of the exclusion zone in that, in that particular region. So, uh, uh, it was ironic in the sense that at the time the Pacific coast was already quarantined relative to, uh, restricting travel for Japanese and Japanese-Americans as well. They make no distinction whether you' ; re an American citizen or otherwise. And it happened that, uh, as I was arriving at a very inconvenient time, uh, because the, uh, Pearl Harbor had occurred, the, uh, the, uh, uh, doctor that operated a clinic, a Dr. Charles, uh, Aylen In, uh, in the, uh, city of Puyallup, Washington, uh, uh, decided to defy I guess the, uh, it' ; s a very strict curfew that applied to Japanese and Japanese-Americans and insisted that my mother come and deliver me, uh, in his clinic. So this was kind of in direct opposition of the existing curfew laws. And, uh, Dr. Charles Aylen was, uh, I think a dedicated country guy who didn' ; t pay that much attention to the fact that he may have been violating or putting himself into actually some kind of, uh, jeopardy, and certainly a violation of the curfew laws. So I came along, so that was my only claim to fame. After which, and two months later, we, uh, we were all, um, moved to the Puyallup fairgrounds. Ironically, this, the Puyallup fairgrounds was put together rather in a roughshod method, so according to my parents, especially my mother, we were housed in what was a horse stall, you know, as such. And, uh, it was, I guess pretty traumatic for them because this, especially for my mother who at that time now had three, uh, infant boys, uh, all in diapers. So the story is, is that because of that fact and the also the fact that you could only, uh, what, uh, take basically what, uh, you could carry, she stuffed all the suitcases with diapers, so they didn' ; t have much of anything else. So I' ; m going to the assembly center, uh, and then several months later, then we were moved, uh, permanently to the Minidoka Concentration Camp. So, uh, so that, that in and of itself was somewhat of a, you know, inauspicious start for, for our lives. So... AT: 04:19 And with your brothers would it, what' ; s the age difference or birth order of your brothers? AH: 04:30 Okay. Richard was born in 1941, excuse me, 1940, and Gary was ' ; 41. I was ' ; 42. So we were just, uh, my mother just, I guess she didn' ; t have much rest or whatever. Okay. So we were all right there, close together, essentially eleven months apart and uh, we' ; re all, uh, you know, so we' ; re all infants. And then in19 and about 20 months later after I was born then, uh, our youngest brother, uh, Robert was born in Minidoka, uh, in 1943. But um, so we' ; re all, uh, I think quite a handful I would say. AT: 05:14 And um, how long was your family in camp, in Minidoka? AH: 05:20 In camp itself? Uh, let' ; s see. Minidoka opened and I' ; m think-, we-, I believe that we were moved nearly immediately. Uh, Minidoka was opened in early August. Uh, and we were there until, I would say around September or so of forty-, you know, I want to say forty-, uh, ' ; 44. So we were there probably around two and a half years as a, as a family unit, although my father, uh, applied for and gained, uh, early release, uh, to, get resettled in, uh, the Midwest, initially in Rockford, Illinois. And then later on with the family to Chicago, Illinois. And that was about, so we were, we were as a family probably in the September of ' ; 44 for the family and, and now the four boys to Rockford initially. By that time, my father, and I don' ; t know how he did this, but as I was told, he worked three jobs to earn enough money, uh, to, to buy, uh, to buy a house in Rockford. Now unfortunately, because we were moving during, during the time of war, right so this was late, uh, by this time, late ' ; 44, uh, and with the war ongoing, the people in the house who were renting a house at the time that my father had bought it in a time that we were migrating out of uh West Coast to Midwest, uh, refused to move. And, uh, their terminology was pretty derogatory. It was, we' ; re not gonna move for some dirty Japs and they just, so they were basically squatters. Now fortunately at the time, uh, my mother with the four boys were on the sidewalk, pretty distraught, I guess, and, um, a neighbor just down the street happened to notice this commotion, kind of interesting. Her name was Myrtle Cavanaugh. And she saw this situation and once she found out what was going on that, uh, it was our house, but nobody, that people weren' ; t going to move and so on and so forth, she actually, uh, summoned her husband to help intercede in this situation. Now, Ed Cavanaugh happened also to be a captain of the Rockford Police Department, so within a month or so, uh, of being delayed, we finally got apparently the squatters out of there and we were able to occupy our first owned house, uh, in, uh, in Rockford. Now I say first owned house because, as we are all aware of now, okay, the, the farm that we came out of, which was Puyallup, in Puyallup, uh, and with, uh, the state of Washington land laws and the fact that my, uh, issei grandfather, uh, grandparents couldn' ; t own land, okay, because they were denied the right to get citizenship, that was a leased property. Okay. Now, they weren' ; t smart enough, I guess, to put it into my father' ; s name, so consequently that was leased property and so everything basically was lost there and that' ; s why the move to the Midwest was uh very important, okay. One, my father couldn' ; t have gone back to the west coast anyway to reestablish things. Everything that they already had was lost. Uh, they only received pennies on the dollar, I guess from their farm equipment and so on. So, uh, so the Midwest was where we ended up two years later or so. I' ; m not sure what the timing was. We then migrated to Chicago on the South Side. AT: 09:21 I' ; m so sorry. Do you mind taking off your hat? I' ; m just afraid we were going to lose - AH: 09:27 Oh, okay. AT: 09:28 - your eyes in the, in the shot. Um, uh, thank you for, for sharing all of that. Um, so, um, your first memories, were they of Rockford or Chicago? AH: 09:49 Well, definitely it would be Rockford. By that time I would, I was probably at least two and a half or so. So I have some memories. Uh...unfortunately, there weren' ; t all that great memories because of, I was small, but Gary was a little bit, you know, like 11 months older and he managed, uh, and we managed to get into a rock fight, okay, with, and I hate to admit this with girls, but they were older girls. Okay. And that' ; s where he got a scar on his forehead because one landed right, you know, took him right out, and stuff like that. So that' ; s about, uh, and you know, there were adventures with, uh, you know, both of my brothers, I remember, um, we really didn' ; t have any money and by that time my father had moved on to Chicago to get established there. So my mother was left with us. And I do remember one thing is that she would take us to the, kind of the local windmill, I guess, and she would get a gunny sack, you know for a penny or two of, uh, wood ends. And we' ; d bring them home and those were our toys. So that' ; s, that' ; s a, which was fine, you know, and stuff like that. But that' ; s how I remember it. And now you put it into context of what kids have today and it' ; s, uh, kind of remarkable, like I still think I liked woodblocks better. AT: 11:12 And so, of the, the stories, um, kind of like the family stories that you have of camp, was this all learned from your parents? Did they share about this experience with you? AH: 11:29 This is the interesting part is that we as a family didn' ; t have conversations about that experience until actually the redress hearings in the ' ; 80s, uh, in which my mother was an active participant. In fact, she gave testimony and so on, at that time, the full story and the impact to the family, uh, really, uh, was not, uh, was not all that well known. Not in any detail. Uh, and during the formative years right between the time that we moved to Chicago and started the school, um, uh, our family did not, and especially my parents, did not complain or resent or provide resentment, uh, with regard to their experience. But it was mostly, and I would say entirely a matter of us growing up to take, always take responsibility ; alright, you know, to, to do the right thing ; to work very, very hard. And, uh, there was no, there was no complaining, there was no whining that it was no, no, uh, excuse-making, okay, for I guess anything we did. So, you know, consequently the emphasis was on, um, working hard, getting an education, and for boys don' ; t get caught. So, uh, I don' ; t know. So we ended up with, you know, a younger brother, Bob became, uh, you know, an attorney. And then Gary has had, I guess a, a real knack for design and product development and stuff like that. So he has, he still has like 33 patents in his name. Um, and he' ; s the guy that gave you tab pulls for soda cans that you didn' ; t litter the, the ground with. Okay. Cause he, he came up with the one with the, that was detach-, uh, non-attachable. And then I got involved with, uh, information technology, and uh, and cybersecurity and stuff like that before I retired. So we, you know, we all worked hard and gone to completely different areas. Richard, our oldest, unfortunately died very young, so but, uh, there was no, there was no true, I, I don' ; t know how to say it, but it' ; s like using that, using our experience as a reason why we couldn' ; t accomplish something, I guess, is a way, that was not allowed. Period. And in fact, my mother was very, very outgoing. She was kinda like the spark of the family cause she, um, she was a registered nurse, uh, during a wartime, during the wartime at at the camp experiences, she was, she worked very, very hard in the, uh, in the hospital clinic at Minidoka, okay. And through an extended family because there, my father had two sisters and also her, uh, his mother was also in camp at the time too, they helped take care of us while my mother also, uh, you know, volunteered and did work in the, uh, in the camp hospital as well. So when we were in Chicago, then she became, um, she was, uh, functioned as a nurse here as well. Uh, primarily into our formative years, at the University of Chicago with a, with a, little babies, stuff like that ; neonatology and stuff like that. So on and so forth. But she constantly, the thing about her was that she, because the University of Chicago they had a bunch of, uh, displaced students running around, and during the holidays, uh, it was, uh, you know, they had no place to go very often. She would find them and drag ' ; em all home. So she would have Thanksgiving and Christmas, uh, what, with these students. So we, we got to know these guys as well and so on. So that was kind of a nice experience. AT: 15:54 And your father, did he take up any work while in camp? AH: 15:59 He was, uh, yeah, he, well he worked in the kitchen, I think. And uh, uh, but he had left because he had early release and that was in late ' ; 43, so he was one of the very early ones, uh, to get re-, early release so he can get, we can get reestablished in, uh, in the Midwest, go through a resettlers program. So, uh, that was his primary interest. And then, uh, like I said, once in Rockford, he, I, I don' ; t know how the fella did it, okay. Cause, uh, if I had lost all my livelihood, all my, uh, um, family relationships and so on and so forth, and taken away all their property, uh, I' ; m not sure what I would' ; ve done, but he went to Rockford and worked three jobs and, and within a year and a half, had enough money to buy a house. I mean, that' ; s crazy. And since we all lived on leased land, that was the first owned property that we actually had. So we' ; re, you know, despite the, you know, moving in, uh, issues, uh, that was, that was a good thing. AT: 17:02 And when he came to, or when your family came to Chicago, um, where did you all settle and, and what was your father doing at that time? AH: 17:13 He was, um, uh, at the time, then, uh, we had some family already preceding us. Okay. His older sister and her husband, they had established a kind of restaurant, okay, on the South Side. So he went and worked with them, uh, for actually, for quite a while. So that, so that, was what he was doing. So he wasn' ; t uh, he wasn' ; t professionally trained. Okay. But, so, but that' ; s what he did, and worked very, very hard at it. AT: 17:44 Do you know anything about the restaurant? What it was called or what kind of food they had? AH: 17:50 This was called the Atlantic Inn. It was on Pershing Road in Chicago. This was the South Side. They' ; re not, I don' ; t know. I remember this was not the, I guess you would call it, the very best, uh, exclusive area of South Side of Chicago. So I remember signs that my uncle and my father had posted in the restaurant that said, nope. In the booths it said, no dope pedaling allowed. So this was not your ideal place, okay. But it was, it was a livelihood. Uh, we started, actually, we started working, uh, there, as, even as kids. Um, uh, my first experience was, actually, I was around seven years old and I was assigned pots and pans. Uh, so I would get up in the morning and then, uh, go with my father, and, uh, he, he, uh, I guess he sold it as training. So this is about time you guys started to do something for yourselves. I was seven years old, so it was training, therefore you got no salary, and uh, and actually I never got out of pots and pans. I was stuck. AT: 19:11 What did that mean exactly? Washing? AH: 19:11 Uh, yes. Yeah. I would stand up, I would have a stool because I wasn' ; t tall enough to reach these, uh, these are these deep sinks, you know, commercial type sinks as such, so I would, they would get me a stool. I would stand up on there. And then, they, they went through the enormous, this was not modern, you know, cookery, the, you know, they had enormous amounts of pots. I thought, huge amounts of pots and pans. Okay. So it was an endless and thankless job, okay. But, uh, that' ; s what I was supposed to do. So... AT: 19:42 And what, um, I' ; m sorry, did you say that this was owned by your family? AH: 19:42 Yes, it was owned by my uncle, okay, who was married, he was my uncle-in-law married to my father' ; s oldest sister. And they had come in and established themselves a little bit earlier and I don' ; t know, uh why and where for us, okay. But they also, uh, cause we initially lived in one of their apartments in one of the, in the building, that he actually owned or operated or whatever. And he also had, uh, the Atlantic Inn that I just mentioned. In addition to that, there was another restaurant in the Hyde Park area on the, called the Good Eats Cafe. Now that one was a little bit better, uh, position. And in fact, in subsequent years it was, it was well...good enough, uh, considered good enough so that he even had the, the Los, at the time, the Los Angeles Rams come and eat there and so on and so forth. So that was a better, I think a better situation. Atlantic Inn was a little, a little iffy, actually it was across the street, where the, where the, uh, where the, uh, El Rukns established their headquarters in that area. So, so it was, uh, it was interesting, but that' ; s, that' ; s how we grew up. We grew up on uh, went to school on the South Side of Chicago, primarily Oakenwald Grammar School and Shakespeare Grammar School, just around 40-, I don' ; t know, 44th or 46 and Greenwood, somewhere in there. Uh, so, uh, we' ; re South Side kids. AT: 21:16 And where did you go to high school? AH: 21:18 Went to high school in, uh, uh, South Shore High School. Uh, interesting enough, South Shore was at the time that we, uh, hit high school was actually one of the, one of the highest rated schools academically. They sucked in sports, but they were very good academically. Bear in mind that at the time, South Shore, uh, in the South Side was, um, uh, although we were in the throes of a huge migration going on in the South Side of Chicago, uh, with many of the, um, uh, um, black folks coming in because there was a lot of, uh, lots of industry and lots of factory jobs going on and so on and so forth. But South Shore was primarily actually, uh, Jewish. So, uh, so that was a, I think a good school to go to and we had deliberately tried to move further in there so we could, I believe, take advantage of the schools. I know I' ; m going to give our family credit for thinking like that, although, I don' ; t know, okay. Uh, but we were also at a boundary point where we were what we call redline. In other words, people, if you were not white, you couldn' ; t move beyond a certain point. So we were right on, you know, on the boundary point there in that, but we still qualified into, to get into the South Shore High School, uh, region. AT: 22:48 Do you remember the address of that home you had? AH: 22:51 Yeah, it was, uh, 1436, uh, east 71st Place. Just a little bit west of, uh, Stony Island. And uh, South Shore, the South Shore district was a little bit, probably a little, uh, definitely, uh, further east and south. Alright. So we were kind of right on the borderline. AT: 23:17 And, um, at the time when you' ; re growing up on the South Side, um, were there other Japanese-American families in your neighborhood or that you grew up with? AH: 23:29 The Nakayamas. I remember Joanne and I thought she was really cute. And I remember her, we were actually in the same class. I remember, I dunno, it was a really strange, I remember this is, that she was the smart one. So she had to help the, you know just uh, there' ; s a, like a, some kind of, this is in, you know, maybe fourth grade or whatever it is. In any case, she was chosen, uh, to help monitor a reading session that the rest of us had to go through. So we had to, you know, if we didn' ; t know what the word was, okay, we would raise our hand and she would come over and educate you, I guess. Okay. So, uh, she was the teacher' ; s pet. What can I say? AT: 24:19 So was it just that, that one family, uh Japanese-American family? AH: 24:24 No, no, there are many others. There is others as well. As a matter of fact, and we were talking about this at dinner, there was a fellow that was featured and I had, I confess, I have not seen the, the Ken Burns Vietnam War, but there was a Japanese-American, uh, that was featured in one of uh, I guess on one of the sessions. I happened to see it on Facebook. And this session was featuring a fellow by name of Vincent Okamoto, and he was being portrayed as a, well, a Vietnam War hero and so on. And, uh, they went through his exploits and so on and so forth, and, um, and I just happened to notice on Facebook and that struck me as being very familiar. And as it turns out, we knew Vincent, you know, and that he and his father used to visit us, uh, in my, my, uh, uncle' ; s old, uh, apartment building. So we knew, knew of Vincent. Vincent Okamoto, but I didn' ; t realize that. And I remember that, uh, they were, they were one of the people resettled in Chicago under her family. And I, I, I don' ; t know why I remember this because I was fairly young, but they were going to be moving back to California as soon as possible. See, so many of the Japanese-Americans were pulled into Chicago and there was, we had quite a few in the, uh, on the South Side of Chicago, um, through the, I think the efforts of the Resettlers Committee. Right. And, um, I think they were one of them, but a lot of, a lot of them wanted to get back to the west coast. We didn' ; t, but they did. And they went to, back I guess to, California and so on. So we were talking about this at dinner, like two weeks ago. I said, ' ; you know, there was a name, uh, that I saw on Facebook,' ; cause everybody was asking ' ; did you see the Vietnam War thing?' ; And I said, ' ; no, I didn' ; t. Uh, but I do remember this one, uh, one, uh, element of it.' ; And then, uh, so, Gary cause he loves to Google things, I said, ' ; Gary, Google that name Vincent Okamoto, it sounds very familiar.' ; And as it turns out, yeah, that' ; s Vincent. So that was interesting. He was also born in camp, so he was actually up here with and about the same age as my, our, our younger brother Robert. Okay. So... AT: 26:47 And when you were growing up, were you, um, involved in any activities or extracurricular activities? Sports, clubs, boy scouts? AH: 27:00 I wasted my youth. Okay. I, uh, I have to admit, I, uh, managed to get involved with, uh, music, and uh, so I, uh, studied clarinet and then later on, uh, don' ; t ask me how, I managed to fall into a band. So we played all kinds of, throughout all my, starting when I was 15 years old, through, uh, I completely neglected everything and we just played, uh, dates and weddings and so on and so forth. So I, by that time I had, I had a clarinet, and then, um, a tenor sax, alto sax and so on. I was the reed guy and so on. But unbeknownst to me, it was kind of interesting, my high school teacher thought enough of me to set me up with, uh, music lessons and he had been sending me to Chicago Conservatory, uh, for clarinet. And I, I never really appreciated what the guy did for me. Okay. He just said go there. I did. You know, we had to, I had, so I had good training, so it was kind of nice, but I kind of wasted. I just, we just played dates all over the place. It was really a lot of fun, so I got nothing done. AT: 28:11 Do you remember that teacher' ; s name? AH: 28:14 I do, you know, I do not. Okay. He was, um, I do remember this though. He, he was married to a Japanese lady. But I don' ; t remember his name. No. And no one has asked me for 50 years. AT: 28:32 And, um, your family, did you all stay on the South Side or did you ever move at any point? AH: 28:40 I would say that, uh, yeah, we stayed there for, actually, for quite a while, um, through high school. Okay. After that, then we started to move. My father started, uh, was, got sick. Uh, I was, um, I had some misadventures in college, initial college years, you know, uh, joined the army, you know, for a couple of years, and, uh, I came back. By that time we started to, you know, move out and so on. So, um, I would say through the college years or you know, like maybe 19 or 20 years. And then, uh, at that point we, uh, uh, moved away, but still in Chicago. AT: 29:31 Around the ' ; 60s? Would you say, is that about right? AH: 29:34 I would say, yeah. I would say more in the mid, mid-sixties. AT: 29:38 Yeah. And to where did your family move? What parts of Chicago? AH: 29:44 Uh, well my mother moved to the, uh, near the, the Chicago Buddhist church. Or. She wasn' ; t Buddhist, but that was the area that some of the South Side Japanese, uh, moved to, to the North Side. And, uh, so she, I think she had a small apartment, so on and so forth. But my father, bear in mind, uh, got very sick. He had diabetes and it really, you know, uh, that really, uh, killed him. Alright. So, she was by herself in an apartment. And then from there, she came, became involved with the development of, um, something called the Heiwa Terrace. The Heiwa Terrace is, um, what, Lawrence, and um Broadway or somewhere in that area. Yeah right. And so on. So she was one of the kind of organizing forces behind that. Uh, uh, the Nakawatase boys who were architects, and whom we also, you know, were childhood friends with, uh, you know, helped build and design that thing. And then, uh, and so later, uh, uh, we encouraged her, well, instead of being in this apartment, why don' ; t you go, you know, go to Heiwa Terrace? And, uh, and, and she did, which was nice, okay. And then that' ; s, so that' ; s where she settled. Um, and uh, let' ; s see. Well, and then uh, I was thinking around Chicago someplace, on the North Side by this time. Uh, and, uh, you know, went to school and, uh, met Louise during one of our, we were tutoring. This is interesting. So, some-, somebody had hooked me up with, well, ' ; can you go tutor, uh, needy students on the North Side?' ; I said, ' ; uh, well, okay.' ; Um, so in going there, I discovered that, uh, these were all primarily Asian kids and they really didn' ; t need any tutoring. Okay. What it was is that I think their parents were interested in getting them to move and accelerate as well as possible, academically. So ran into a bunch of, you know, really gifted, gifted kids and it was a lot of fun. But that' ; s also where I met Louise and we got married and so on. We didn' ; t have any kids of our own, but uh, you know, we' ; re still together somehow or another. AT: 32:11 And you two are settled in Sauganash now? AH: 32:14 Yeah. Initially, we were in, uh, we were up in Highland Park. Uh, and her father at the time, uh, turned out was the General Superintendent, uh, up in Highland Park in district 113. And uh, it was just all coincidence, okay. But, uh, and then, um, and then, uh, we moved to, uh, back to Chicago from Highland Park after about five years or so. Cause we weren' ; t seeing people ; we felt isolated out there. So we' ; ll be closer to our friends, and you know, so we went back to Chicago and found out that wasn' ; t the reason they weren' ; t visiting us. AT: 32:56 Um, well, we' ; re, we' ; re actually reaching our half an hour mark. AH: 33:01 Okay, good. AT: 33:01 But before we wrap up, um, is there anything that you would want to add or that we might' ; ve missed? AH: 33:08 I, I, well I would just simply say that uh, until this type of, uh, documentation, uh, this project and some of the things I' ; ve seen, I haven' ; t seen all of the exhibit here, uh, and also the, the movements through, um, uh, the, uh, the Densho project and so on, where I' ; m starting to get acquainted with some real, real experiences from people that have a true memory of the wartime, uh, wartime era, since I was really an infant that, uh, I am becoming much more appreciative of what the hell they really went through. What they had lost and the challenges they had to overcome. And doing this with a, I would say, well, this is what has taught me something. It was the grace and the, and the humility and just the sincer- sincerity and the integrity that they, they conducted their lives throughout without bitterness. Just trying to do as much as they could ; trying to help their, uh, their kids in the family and to stay on the right track. Uh, just, um, you see all the dissension that' ; s going on today, in today' ; s world, and everybody' ; s got a gripe, I know that, okay. And everybody has suffered in some way. They have been slighted and they' ; ve been insulted and they' ; ve been denied. But, um, uh, I am more appreciative of the way our parents, uh, handled what had happened to them, especially with regard to how they translated that or transmitted that, uh, throughout their lives and also affected us. I' ; m much more appreciative. Much more appreciative. And this type of effort is just, I think, marvelous. Absolutely marvelous. It' ; s, it' ; s taught me, one of the people, a lot. So, um, I' ; m just touched by it. AT: 35:20 Wh-, what are some of your hopes for, for those kinds of efforts? Why is it important to document and to, to share the story with others? AH: 35:31 Well, given the climate that we are in now, without getting overtly political, alright, this is the type of effort that is needed even more so. The, the, the dissension that we are seeing a, lot of it through misinformed or ill-informed people, okay, are forming the basis for more, uh, tension and prejudice, and unfortunately, violence. Alright. And that' ; s where I think that this type of of project, if given the right venue, the right exposure, okay, certainly can help for those that want to, I guess, open their minds and to learn a little bit more of our, of our history. So that, that' ; s a, uh, that' ; s a very, very worthwhile goal. And even if you affect, you know, some people, uh, I think that' ; s worth it. So, uh, I' ; m an, I' ; m deeply appreciative of finding a venue like this and to put the effort that' ; s been put into this. I just, I' ; m, I' ; m blown away. I really am. And I' ; m very impressed. And the level and the, I think the, uh, the, the professionalism that you guys have put in, this is amazing to me. So I, I, I' ; m a fan and I just dropped in, so thank you. AT: 37:04 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. AH: 37:07 Okeydoke. AT: 37:07 We really appreciate it. AH: 37:10 Yes. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HasegawaAylen20171006.xml HasegawaAylen20171006.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Hasegawa, Aylen (10/6/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Aylen Hasegawa was born on February 19th, 1942; the same day that President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 allowing for the incarceration of Japanese Americans. He recalls what he's been told of his mother raising four infants in the Minidoka camp, the family's experiences in Rockford, and his own memories of growing up on Chicago's South Side. He reflects on the values of hard work and responsibility imparted by his parents, and shares his thoughts about the importance of contemporary efforts to preserve and teach about incarceration history.
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2017-10-06
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hasegawa, Gary
Interview Keyword
Puyallup
Farmer
Minidoka
Nisei
Sansei
Rockford
Chicago
Kenwood
OHMS Object Text
5.4 7/12/2017 Hasegawa, Gary (7/12/2017) 0:24:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Puyallup Farmer Minidoka Nisei Sansei Rockford Chicago Kenwood Hasegawa, Gary Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/301922372 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/301922372?h=b756f531e3" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Gary Hasegawa is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American, born on a farm in Puyallup, Washington. He was one year old when his family was incarcerated first at the Puyallup fairgrounds and then at Minidoka. He describes experiencing prejudice as a young boy while growing up in Rockford and in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood, and share his thoughts about the long-term impact of incarceration on his father. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 All right. So if we, you could just start by stating your name. Gary Hasegawa: 00:05 Uh, my name is Gary Kenji Hasegawa. AT: 00:09 Okay. And then GH: 00:09 I' ; m 76 years old and I' ; ve been in Chicago pretty much. Uh, after the war, pretty much sure. All my life. AT: 00:22 Can you tell me a little bit about where you were born? And, GH: 00:26 Well, I was born in Puyallup, Washington in 1941. Uh, were on a farm. My grandparents actually had leased a, the farm and my dad had planned to purchase the farm. And then of course the war broke out and we left. That was pretty much it. AT: 00:54 And so you were, you were very young at the time that the war broke out. GH: 00:59 Yes. I was, um, Well, 11, 11 months. Wait, let me think. 2040, it was 42. I was born in 41, so around, yeah, about a year. Yeah. A year old AT: 01:15 And do you know, did you all start at a detention center and then, or, anything but .. GH: 01:20 Um, yes. Uh, the Puyallup fair grounds, I think it was a temporary holding points. And then we went to Minidoka, Idaho for the duration. AT: 01:32 And what did your parents do after, or what was the process of leaving camp? GH: 01:38 Of leaving camp? Well, my dad was sponsored out of Camp. Apparently that' ; s what was necessary. Uh, so he got an apprenticeship in Rockford as a baker' ; s apprentice. Uh, my parents apparently saved enough money to buy a home, so they did. Uh, my Dad arranged to buy a home in Rockford. Uh, so we were live in Rockford for about three and a half, four years. Uh, then we sold the home. My parents sold the home and we moved to, uh, Chicago. Ummm. My uncle actually owned some businesses in Chicago and my dad, uh, went to work for him and my mom, uh, was a nurse, so she went to work at the University of Chicago, billings as a nurse. Uh,we also, my parents also bought a home, uh, in the Kenwood neighborhood, uh, on Ellis Avenue 44th and Ellis. And uh, I spent actually up to about fifth grade in that location. Uh, AT: 02:57 And what kind of businesses did your uncle own? GH: 03:01 He had apartment buildings and three restaurants. Uh, so my dad went to work as a cook in the restaurant, uh. AT: 03:13 Were those also, so those were on the south side? GH: 03:16 They were all on the south side. Yeah. Everything was on on the south side. Uh, and I think that was one of the reasons we, we kind of landed up there. I don' ; t know if my parents really have a choice, but that' ; s kind of where we decided to settle. AT: 03:34 And, so since you were, you said you had three siblings? GH: 03:39 Uh, three brothers, yeah, three brothers. Right. We were very close in age. Actually. The three of us are 11 months apart. 11 months. 11 months. AT: 03:50 Wow, family lucky number. GH: 03:51 We were, yeah so, very close in age. AT: 03:56 And where are you in the birth order? GH: 03:58 I' ; m in. Pardon? AT: 03:59 Where are you in the birth order? GH: 04:01 I' ; m in the, I' ; m second. AT: 04:02 Okay. Second son? GH: 04:03 Second eldest. Yeah. AT: 04:04 So there is, you only had the one, uh, brother who was in camp then? GH: 04:09 Who was where? AT: 04:10 Who was in camp? GH: 04:13 Um, actually one of my brothers was born in the camps. Um, so by the time we got out, we were all, they were all there, you know, yeah. Actually my brother Aylen interestingly, his name comes from an, from the doctor who actually, um, he agreed to kind of, it was not very fashionable for him to, to help us out, but he did. And so my mom named, uh, my brother Aylen after Dr Aylen. AT: 04:56 Was he a doctor in the camp? GH: 04:59 Um, no, no. He had to go, he had to come in, you know, and so he kind of did things that, that were not favorable, you know, what he did and that' ; s why they, my mom really appreciated what he did for us. And so my brother' ; s Aylen a y l e n for Doctor Aylen. Huh. AT: 05:23 And since you were so young in camp, GH: 05:29 Uh huh AT: 05:30 Do you have any memories of it or? GH: 05:32 I might have one vague memory of my grand mother being put on a truck to go out in the farm fields, but I, I, you know, it could just be my figment of my imagination. But I checked with my mother and she said, yeah, they would load her up on the trucks. And they' ; d go out to the field, the fields. So I kind of vaguely remember something about it, but I don' ; t know. AT: 05:58 And what about your family, did your parents or did anyone ever talk about? GH: 06:05 The camps? Uh, not that much. Although, um, my mom would talk about food rationing or trying to do something with food. It' ; ll getting us more food. Uh, also something with, uh, medical care cause she was a nurse. Um, there were some shortages and that sort of thing. AT: 06:35 Did she .. GH: 06:35 Dealing with that kind of thing, yeah. AT: 06:37 Did she work as a nurse in camp? GH: 06:39 Yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. She had a nursing degree at that time. And, uh, yeah. Although it was difficult for her to even achieve that, I mean, there was a lot of, you know, she, she was a very bright woman, but, uh, she said it was very difficult to get into nursing school and that sort of thing being Japanese. AT: 07:02 Oh? GH: 07:02 Yeah. AT: 07:08 And so I' ; m, I' ; m just thinking about, you know, being so, so young or having that experience happen at such an early part of your life. Um, I mean, was it something that you always knew about that you were, you know, your family was in camp? GH: 07:35 Although my mom was a very strong, uh, not typically Japanese [excuse?], But uh... AT: 07:46 And... GH: 07:46 and then she was involved with the redress and everything. You know what I mean? She really was. Uh, but there was, I nurse a lot of feelings about it and, uh, but it' ; s not like they were better. It doesn' ; t mean that the bitterness and resentment and all this sort of thing, it didn' ; t really resonate there. I don' ; t, I don' ; t recall. They just kind of tried to put their life back together. I know that it was difficult and then as again, getting older I appreciate what they went through, but I just sort of a child, you don' ; t really know what' ; s going on or just, you know, that' ; s what it is. AT: 08:38 Hmm. MMM. Was there ever a time in your life when you, um, looked more into the history of, GH: 08:49 as I got older, I, or I just re appreciated what they went through. And then of course after the war, I mean there was a lot of pressure to see. I mean, I experienced a lot personally. You know. Um, or at least let' ; s say seven years. I mean, you know, they would call me names and that sort of thing. But, uh, AT: 09:14 Was this, uh, in Chicago or. GH: 09:17 In Rockford as well as Chicago. Yeah, for sure. And that went on for awhile. Well. AT: 09:27 Do you remember life in Rockford? GH: 09:31 Oh Sure. Definitely. AT: 09:33 Well, what, can you describe it a little bit? What was it? GH: 09:35 Uh, I wasn' ; t actually in school, but, uh, and we did have, we had friends, we had a white friends. Uh... It' ; s, um, you know, having my brothers and we were very close in age. We were kind of like a little gang. You know Kip. Kip kept each other company and got into mischief on our own. AT: 10:06 We' ; re there other Japanese Americans? GH: 10:08 Uh, no, actually not. No, actually when you think of a, I never thought about it that way, but not really. No. We had, uh, our friends were all white. You know, so, yeah. AT: 10:24 And then how about when you came to Chicago? Can you describe that to me GH: 10:27 Chicago. We' ; re definitely in a lot of Japanese in Kenwood area or we moved, uh, we had, uh, the Ellis community center. We were in the boy, cubs scouts, you know, they were a lot of Japanese around. And that' ; s what social, our social activity was with, uh, with the church and with friends. AT: 10:57 Uh which church were you? GH: 11:00 Kenwood Ellis. It was actually, the church was two doors down on our, I mean, our home was on Ellis Avenue and then two doors down the church was there. So that was, yeah, it was kind of cool. Very convenient. AT: 11:23 Did you grow up speaking Japanese? GH: 11:25 No, not at all. See, my, um, um, my parents wanted to assimilate and they just never spoke Japanese. They, I mean, they knew, they were bilingual, but there' ; s, I mean, they would speak to my grandmother in Japanese. Uh, and then sometimes if they didn' ; t want us to know what was going on, they would talk in Japanese to each other. But that was about it. AT: 11:58 Do you remember your grandparents well? GH: 12:02 Um, sort of my, um, my mother' ; s mother, uh, was, uh, she wasn' ; t, she didn' ; t live in the same, uh, state. She was away. So I didn' ; t know her really at all. I know my, my father' ; s mother was in Chicago, but, uh, I didn' ; t really know her that well. AT: 12:35 Did you, um, you mentioned that you had experienced a bit of a prejudice in Rockford. Did you experience anything like that in Chicago? GH: 12:47 Yes. Oh yeah. I would say I could, and I mentioned, uh, I think until, I think until I was about 10, 9 or 10, I felt prejudice and comments and that sort of thing. And then, uh, later in life, I think I had mentioned that kind of reversed itself to a point where I was given certain attributes and things, uh, which is fine with me. I mean, AT: 13:21 people making assumptions. GH: 13:23 Yeah, good assumption, but you know, uh, as young adult, I even felt very self conscious, like even dating outside of you know, I didn' ; t feel that comfortable. Uh, uh, that' ; s stuck with me for quite awhile. Psychologically it was [motions to head in a swirling manner] AT: 13:46 Why, why don' ; t you, why didn' ; t you feel comfortable? Or what do you think GH: 13:51 something I think, I mean, Japanese had and then the way I was treated, I think it affected me. And, uh, so for quite a while I felt very self conscious about it, somewhat uncomfortable almost. And uh, with that I would say, um, so I was probably in my thirties, maybe, you know, I got became, everything became quite pleasant to a point. I mean, I, I managed to, uh, you know, I went, I got a master' ; s degree in a professional degree and in design, product design and I have a group, very good career, a good experience in that respect. Uh, so that was fine. You all of that was was great. Yeah. AT: 14:58 Um, earlier when we were speaking, you had mentioned um, And, and your wife even mentioned that you, you can speak a bit to kind of the legacy of, of camp and, and this, um, this particular history. Could you speak a little bit more about, um, you know, what effects you' ; ve noticed throughout your life, um, the, the camps may have had on your family or, GH: 15:30 well, I would say um, the most dramatic effect I think was with my dad, uh, who I believe, I really don' ; t think he really recovered from the camps. Um, he in, on the farm in Puyallup, I mean he had a high school education that was pretty much it for him. Uh, but he was quite well received in Puyallup and her was kind of a community leader. Um, he actually had a nice life. Things, having the farm, just, um, parents having a farm and then he was going to take the, take the farm over. Also having four sons, were good. Yeah. He could rely on us to probably become the farmers. I think he was anticipating a very good life for himself. Um, so the more being taken off the farm, I was very disruptive for him in particular. And uh, he just as a, I just remember my dad, he just was, I just don' ; t remember him never really been that happy, or, uh, you know, it was just kind of, he was just kinda going through life, you' ; re just trying to make the best, you know do the best he could. It was never a very joyful situation. Uh, yeah, that' ; s, that' ; s what I remember. Um, when my mother, she was always determined to, you know, she always said, you guys are going to make something out of yourselves. I mean, just, you know, and that' ; s, I think that' ; s the thing that really resonated in my mind. That' ; s, she said, don' ; t give up, even though we didn' ; t, we never had a great deal of money or means, uh, we figured it out one way or the other, how to do it. And I think that gave me a lot of strength. Um, you know, we didn' ; t have the money, but I went through junior high school and then transferred, um, to IIT and I get the masters degree and all of my brothers have professional, you know, professional degrees. And, uh, we did, we did quite okay, you know, in life. Um, and then, so I think that in a strange way, they experience toughened us up. Uh, you know, it was good. I mean, it was, that' ; s the positive part of it. And also, um, it forced us to get out of... Assimilate. We assimilated into society. So I think that' ; s another positive thing about it. But I certainly would not want this to happen to any other, I wouldn' ; t want it to happen to anybody else or to anybody. Yeah, I never really wanted to. AT: 19:00 If you could, um, pass along a message or a legacy to, to your own children and family, kind of like your mother did to you? What would you want to say to them? GH: 19:18 Well, my daughter, I think she really, uh, does appreciate, uh, my mom, I actually was, was fortunate. Is, uh, Rachel spent 14 quality years with my mother before she passed away. And, uh, my mother actually, uh, yeah, they were very close. She' ; s, she' ; s actually the only grandchild believe it or not, so she was, there was a lot of concentration of my mother' ; s influence on her and intimate moments and that sort of thing. Uh, you know, uh, but I think Rachel, my daughter does appreciate what we went through. What my, uy mother, her grandmother went through. Uh, she' ; s very aware of these things are socially, or... And teach, she teaches me lessons every day. She reminds me. Well in a sense, uh, she' ; s very liberal minded. Very socially aware of these things. Uh and, so if there' ; s any hint of me, uh, what can I say? Being insensitive about things, uh she' ; ll something, take me to task on it for sure. Yeah. I mean, I' ; m an old guy. I mean, I, yeah. So that' ; s, you know, AT: 21:25 And so, um, just as we wrap up here, why are, in your opinion, why, why is this, what can we learn from this history, um, and this experience that you or your family and so many other families went through or, or what, what do we need to learn from it? GH: 21:52 Um, we have really be, well, we can never take anything for granted. We really have to, I mean, look at what is going on today. I mean, is, I would say one thing our president is doing for us right now is waking us up. I mean, he is, things are so topsy turvy you just can' ; t be, you can' ; t ignore what' ; s going on. And I think it' ; s in a strange way that it' ; s good. That' ; s a good thing. Uh, and we need to always be vigilant and aware and not take things for granted at all. Um, you know, I would say that' ; s, that' ; s the thing that I resonates in my mind anyway. What can I say? AT: 23:02 Oh, is there anything else you might want to add or that I might' ; ve missed that you want to? GH: 23:12 Hmm. I just, you know, I want to be a good person. Thats uh, I want to live in the rest of my life. Uh, I, I certainly don' ; t make the, as much of an effort as I could. Yeah, no, for sure. But, uh, I tried to get it away from myself personally, tried to do something good. For mankind, but I know you, I really have to, I have to force myself to do it, but I try, at least I try. AT: 23:55 Thank you so much for taking the time. GH: 23:57 Thank you for asking me to do. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HasegawaGary20170712.xml HasegawaGary20170712.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/33" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Hasegawa, Aylen (10/6/2017)</a>
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Hasegawa, Gary (7/12/2017)
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Gary Hasegawa is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American, born on a farm in Puyallup, Washington. He was one year old when his family was incarcerated first at the Puyallup fairgrounds and then at Minidoka. He describes experiencing prejudice as a young boy while growing up in Rockford and in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood, and share his thoughts about the long-term impact of incarceration on his father.
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2017-07-12
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Series: Then They Came for Me