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Dublin Core
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Kuramitsu, Keilyn
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hogan, Hannah
Interview Keyword
Denver
Colorado
Nisei
Grocer
Laundry
Los Angeles
Mt. Whitney
Los Angeles Junior College
Santa Anita
Granada
Amache
American Friends Service
National Japanese American Student Relocation Council
Baker University
Woodlawn
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/16/2017 Hogan, Hannah (11/16/2017) 1:04:06 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Denver Colorado Nisei Grocer Laundry Los Angeles Mt. Whitney Los Angeles Junior College Santa Anita Granada Amache American Friends Service National Japanese American Student Relocation Council Baker University Woodlawn Hogan, Hannah Kuramitsu, Keilyn video 0 https://vimeo.com/303603591 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/303603591?h=86e9ddb6f2" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Hannah Hogan is a second generation (Nisei) Japanese American. In this interview, she shares memories of her early life in Denver and Los Angeles and describes the atmosphere of tense anxiety in the Los Angeles Japanese American community after Pearl Harbor. She describes having to leave school when her family's financial assets were frozen, being fired from her job at the Department of Motor Vehicles, the FBI taking male community leaders into custody, and the rush to sell or store personal possessions. She also describes the difficult conditions she experienced at Santa Anita and Amache, her early departure to attend college in Kansas, and the death of her father from illness in camp. She recounts her family's reasons for resettling in Chicago and some of the housing, work, and educational experiences of the early resettlement period. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] KeilynKuramitsu: 00:00:00 You are Hannah Hogan? Hannah Hogan: 00:00:02 Yes. KK: 00:00:04 Where were you born and raised? HH: 00:00:06 In Denver, Colorado. KK: 00:00:10 What was it like growing up in Denver, Colorado? HH: 00:00:12 Oh, it was so much fun. I remember playing in the alley. And last May, my daughter and her husband and two grandsons, we took a trip to Amache with a pilgrimage. So we stopped in Denver. I wanted to see this spot where my parents who proprietors of Togo Laundry and Grocery Store. So I wanted to see where they, where their property was. It was at 20th and Larmor and it' ; s today the Tri-state/Denver Buddhist Temple. And that neighborhood was as I just remember, Japanese American community was there. And around the corner was my friend. In fact, she was my first friend Mary Ariki and her father owned a Togo factory there, KK: 00:01:21 Can you tell me about your parents? HH: 00:01:23 Well, my father and mother both are from Ishikawa-ken, that' ; s on the Sea of Japan. He came very early. I think it was 19, oh 1895. And my mother in 1907. They were married in San Francisco. So he worked as a bank clerk, I heard. And then they used to call them " ; school boys." ; And one story I remember, he said he was in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, so that was interesting. And interesting enough, in 1933 in Los Angeles, I was, I remember the 1933 earthquake. So that, all the schools were because of faulty construction, they really were damaged. So we lived in tents for about a year, I think. I mean, we went to school in tents. But anyway, it was interesting that my father had experienced an earthquake and I had also. My mother, of course, she worked at the laundry and, and worked relentlessly, really so hard, and never complained. And, and you know, she was only in her late twenties or -- to own a grocery store and a laundry -- I thought it was very remarkable. Yeah. KK: 00:03:08 What brought your parents to the United States from Japan? HH: 00:03:13 I really don' ; t know what. I just know she was an only child and, oh, she came with some relatives who were in San Francisco and they had an art studio or what do you call it? Japanese ceramics that they sold. And that' ; s the only reason why, and then, of course, to marry my father. I don' ; t know whether she' ; s a picture bride or what, but anyway. KK: 00:03:51 Do you know how they met? How your parents met? HH: 00:03:54 No, I don' ; t know how they met, but they were from the same " ; ken," ; you know, in Japan. And they were probably knew, families knew each other, right. Uh hm. KK: 00:04:07 And how do they make their way from San Francisco all the way to Denver. HH: 00:04:12 Probably on a train. I don' ; t know. KK: 00:04:19 I mean like what brought them-- HH: 00:04:20 ' ; Cause I was born there. I was born in, in Denver. Only my oldest sister, she was born in San Francisco and then I really don' ; t know. You know, why they went to Denver? Yeah. KK: 00:04:36 So in Denver, did your mom, for example, own a laundry facility there? HH: 00:04:42 No, I don' ; t know how they happened to open up a laundry and a grocery store. That was interesting to see. And, of course, they knew no, any English so, and I' ; m sure they didn' ; t know anything about laundries or grocery stores. But the one, the two people I remember was the Chinese young man who worked the ironing and he still had a pigtail, you know. And, and I don' ; t know what you call do, you know, what' ; you call those caps? And he had a dress. I don' ; t, they don' ; t call it a dress, a gown. And then there was a African American lady, she was, she' ; s the one who pressed the clothes. So that was interesting. KK: 00:05:35 Yeah. I think you talk about how growing up in Denver. Was it a very diverse community there? HH: 00:05:45 Well, just, that' ; s all I remember. We just were with the Japanese Americans. There was down the street, there was one girl I think I used to play with and she Caucasian. But my friends were at the church and I have a picture of the Sunday school, and it' ; s all Japanese. So I think that community was very tight at that time. And I know our doctors were all Japanese -- dentist and one of my sister' ; s piano teachers, she was Japanese. So I think they probably stayed together. KK: 00:06:33 Okay. Do you have any, what are some of your fondest childhood memories of that time? HH: 00:06:41 Well, one thing, and I was only about four years old and I sang at the Tabernacle, there' ; s a Denver Tabernacle and I think it was a Christmas program. And, oh, I can' ; t even believe that I was up there on the stage singing at the, and that, that was, that was, and I guess it' ; s just, ' ; cause nobody else was really musical. So, and I did keep that particular interest the rest of my life. So, but I forgot the last words of the song and that, that' ; s, I think that' ; s what I remember that I hadn' ; t been able to finish the song. KK: 00:07:34 You were four years old? HH: 00:07:37 I was four or five. I think so. KK: 00:07:41 What was the song? HH: 00:07:41 Well, it was about, I can' ; t sing it now, but I can tell you the words. It was, " ; when my mom was busy, all the long, long day, then I' ; ll take my dolly Little Anna May. And I' ; ll tell her stories of the Christ child dear." ; And then I think it was, " ; just like my mommy sang to me all year." ; I don' ; t know. My daughter was trying to look it up on Google, but we couldn' ; t find it. [laughs] KK: 00:08:12 You have a great memory. My goodness. That' ; s from when you were four? HH: 00:08:16 Four or five. I think I was, yeah. But I can just see myself on the stage of this tabernacle and we forgot to look for that particular institution when we were in Denver. KK: 00:08:35 Did you have any siblings? HH: 00:08:39 I had an older sister I mentioned was born in San Francisco and that was in 1910. And then I had a sister Rose who was born in Denver when we first moved to Denver in 19 must' ; ve been 1912 or what. And then I, then there were a big span between my oldest sister and then I, and then I have a younger sister, Esther, and then a brother Daniel. He' ; s no longer with us. And Ben is the youngest. So there were six, six of us. Three are still alive. KK: 00:09:19 What was it like having sisters who were so much older than yourself? HH: 00:09:26 Well, my sister actually because my mother was so busy, Rose was more like a mother ' ; cause she really took over and she was like 10 years older. But she really, like I say, was in charge of our household activities and taking care of us, you know, and all the other chores that we had to do. KK: 00:09:54 Were you close with your siblings? HH: 00:09:56 Yes. Yes. We were all very close. Right. KK: 00:09:58 Close knit family? HH: 00:10:01 Yes. Right. KK: 00:10:03 And then how about your parents? What was your relationship like with your parents? HH: 00:10:08 Well, my father was always working, so I just, the only thing that I remember, he just said, " ; be American" ; and " ; benkyo shite." ; Do you know what that is? KK: 00:10:24 " ; Study hard." ; HH: 00:10:26 Right. So those are the two things I remember that he just said to " ; be American." ; And then the one thing he always put out the American flag, every holiday. And where did he get that idea? It' ; s, it' ; s really interesting again. Yeah. KK: 00:10:50 Growing up, were you aware of having a Japanese American identity? HH: 00:10:57 No, not really. No. It' ; s when we lived in, we lived in Denver and it was all Japanese, but you know, I was a preschooler and, and I didn' ; t, we didn' ; t even think about anything like that. And then when we went to Los Angeles, we lived in an African American neighborhood and now I know that it was because of restrictied covenants. But we were, as I mentioned, our next door neighbor, she was African American. Her name was Norma Smith. And she really was such a significant, had a significant impact on our lives because she taught my sisters how to cook southern cuisine and play bridge. And she taught me how to iron a man' ; s shirt and planting the garden. And then, of course, her home was just velvet drapes and curtains. I' ; d never seen, you know, lovely curtains and furniture, and appliances, and a washing machine. We didn' ; t even have a bath tub or whatever when we lived in Denver ' ; cause we lived behind the store. So I think we were just in one of these wooden tubs or whatever. But anyway, she was just such a good friend. And there was, I had many, many African American friends and we all, there was, there was no racial discrimination in terms of, you know, play mates or whatever in our, and like I say, all our neighbors and my sisters, they' ; re good friends were African Americans. And then we lived in, at the corner was our church, the Methodist, Centenary Methodist church was down the street. So like I say, most of the community was, it' ; s just when we went to school, that' ; s when we met our Caucasian friends and they were all fine. KK: 00:13:13 So you can' ; t remember facing discrimination growing up? HH: 00:13:17 No, not not growing up. As you know, before, before the war, of course, after when Pearl Harbor came, then I thought, " ; What' ; s going on?" ; Right. KK: 00:13:30 So Pearl Harbor happened and did things change for you? HH: 00:13:35 Yes, because of course, I didn' ; t even know her Pearl Harbor was number one. And I had, wasn' ; t interested in what was really going on. It' ; s high school and we' ; re having so much fun, you know, with all our friends. And I was in all kinds of organizations and, and my favorite subjects were in journalism for the newspaper. And then this school where I attended had a pipe organ and it was a technical school and that really was one of the main activities, you know, of my high school was with the junior organist skills and the poly optimists. Those-- KK: 00:14:31 So you' ; re born in Denver. How old were you when your family moved to Los Angeles? HH: 00:14:38 Let' ; s see, it' ; s 1920 just before the crash. 1929 was the crash. So I was, I was six, I think, when we went there. Yeah. Right. KK: 00:14:54 So then you moved to Los Angeles and that' ; s where you' ; re living when Pearl Harbor happened in ' ; 41-- HH: 00:15:02 Yes. KK: 00:15:03 And if you were born in ' ; 22 and Pearl Harbor is in ' ; 41. You were 19? HH: 00:15:09 Yeah, I think so. Right. KK: 00:15:11 Were you in school at the time? What were you doing? HH: 00:15:16 Yeah, I was at Los Angeles Junior College. I was a business major at the time. And junior college really was one of my eventful educational experiences mainly because professor of English, he was the chairman of the department, he would invite the Nisei on these camping trips. And that' ; s when, when I, I mentioned Mount Whitney, when I was able to climb up Whitney. I can' ; t believe it. KK: 00:15:57 Can you tell me more about that? HH: 00:15:59 Well, it was August 28, 1941. In fact, Eric is the one who said, why don' ; t you look it up and find out? Because I wanted to see if there was really a document. And so I called this Professor Richardson' ; s son and his, his wife and she went to the library at Berkeley and she found the original, the um, see what, Sierra Club book that we signed our names in. And so she sent, she sent it through the email. So I saw my name on there and the date. That' ; s how I knew the dates specifically and it, and he did write a book about it. And I just remember one thing, when we got, coming back and we got to camp, his wife didn' ; t go, she was in the camp below and I ate ten pancakes. That' ; s all. I haven' ; t eaten 10, I can' ; t even eat one pancake today. But anyway, it was a wonderful experience. KK: 00:17:09 So what organization did you go with? HH: 00:17:12 Well, he called it, actually, he had a group called the Jabberwocky, which was just from Alice in Wonderland. And it was mainly for reading and enjoyment. But then he noticed that the Nisei were all kind of segregated on their own. And he was, he was concerned that, I guess, he knew what was going on because there was, the war was in Europe. And he was kind of concerned, they wanted us to broaden our, our relationships with other people. And so he did start the student Nisei Club and that that' ; s, and so he would, we would have fun, but he would always have all these books that introduced us to what was going on in the world. And before that, I didn' ; t pay any attention to that. So that' ; s how I, he had us stimulation, you know, to go beyond our Little Tokyo world or whatever. KK: 00:18:26 So you did Whitney on August 28, 1941? HH: 00:18:28 Right. Yes KK: 00:18:32 And then you' ; re studying business in a junior college. Do you remember the name of your the junior college? HH: 00:18:38 it was Los Angeles Junior College. HH: 00:18:43 Los Angeles Junior College. OK. And you' ; re there when Pearl Harbor happened on December 7th. HH: 00:18:47 Right. Right. KK: 00:18:48 Were you in your first year? Were you a freshman? HH: 00:18:50 Second year. I was to graduate in January, I think,. KK: 00:18:53 Oh, wow. HH: 00:18:54 So I didn' ; t. And I did receive, they did send me a graduation diploma. It don' ; t, not just recently, but maybe about five years ago I did get a, they sent me a diploma. KK: 00:19:10 Finally. HH: 00:19:11 Yes, [laughs] right. KK: 00:19:13 So what happened, like how did things change for you after Pearl Harbor as a Japanese American woman living in Los Angeles? HH: 00:19:26 Well, I have to, right. Immediately I had to leave, leave the school because they froze, oh, they froze all our parents bank account. So to help with the financial situation, then I was able to get a job with the Department of Motor Vehicles doing typing license plates. License, um, well, what do you, what do you call it today? KK: 00:20:09 Is it registration? HH: 00:20:10 You know, your, your, um, your license. I don' ; t know what you call it today. KK: 00:20:30 You said, yeah, you heard that clerk typist at the State Department of Motor Vehicles. HH: 00:20:39 Right, yeah. KK: 00:20:39 When did you start working there? I' ; m sorry, I' ; ll give you a second. HH: 00:20:48 Oh, right after Pearl Harbor, I think. I, I, withdrew from, from my classes. So then I was there until April, April of ' ; 42, and then I was fired. And that was kind of a shock. KK: 00:21:12 So, why, how did they tell you you were fired and what was their reason? HH: 00:21:17 Oh, this nice young lady came around and gave us a pink slip and just said, " ; You' ; re fired." ; And that' ; s all I remember until years later, I received all these letters from a, Patrick Johnson who was an assemblyman in the legislature of California and he wished to pass, introduce a bill, I think. I think, I remember it was Assembly Bill 1710, and that would promote a compensation for illegally firing of Japanese Americans. There was about 300, I think altogether and it took a long time for them to get through, but I' ; m really thankful for his association with that project. Yeah. KK: 00:22:28 Was there a huge outcry when you had all of these people just fired and did people challenge anything? HH: 00:22:36 I don' ; t remember anything. I just remember we were fired and that was it. And of course we went to, about three weeks later we had to go to Santa Anita. So everything was kind of a shock, I think, you know, it happened so fast and we just have to accept it. What else was there? I wasn' ; t like Fred Korematsu who, you know, he was so brave to go ahead and do what he did. KK: 00:23:10 So the forced removal for your family, that was in April of 1942? HH: 00:23:16 Yes. KK: 00:23:19 Did you, was it unexpected or had you heard of other Japanese American families being removed from other areas? HH: 00:23:26 Well, December 7th, the minister, Japanese, and our Japanese school teacher and he was a minister and his wife, the FBI came. They lived right in front of, the house in front of us and they came and just hauled them away. I didn' ; t know where they were going. And my sister Rose was close to Edmond. He contacted her and said, " ; Oh, , please bring me my shoes and please go look in my desk drawer and bring me so much money and bring me the slippers for my wife." ; And so it was very sad. And then we had telephone calls, different neighbors being picked up and they were mainly people who were like, the one fellow was just the treasurer of the, of the church there. And so it was very, very anxiety, an anxiety period at the time. Right. KK: 00:24:36 So how did your siblings and your parents react? Were they terrified at maybe being picked out? HH: 00:24:44 Oh my father was, you know, he' ; s a, so he, I remember he packed a little suitcase and had it by the door and then I said they' ; re not going to pick you up, ' ; cause he, he was, he was a gardener. They picked up most all the people that are like, one of my friends, her father was head of an insurance company and they took him and the people that worked in the, all the, what' ; d they call it. And in Japanese Town in the fruit market, they were, they were, so there are so many of the people that are, their fathers were taken. It was very, very sad. KK: 00:25:31 How did you guys hear about the forced removal? Were there signs posted or how did you know-- HH: 00:25:39 We had that sign you have out there, that was on the telephone post to tell us where to go and when to go. And so we just had to get ready and pack. And so the only thing I remember is, which was important to me was, my sister had worked so hard and bought me this piano and that, I don' ; t know where it went. But anyway, someone took that. But mostly I remembered this man coming down the street and trying to, you know, pick up whatever was out there. Some people had them on the lawn and they just went for like 50 cents or I dunno, a dollar. That it was really-- But everybody just, what could we do? You know, it was just such a frantic time. KK: 00:26:38 How much time did your family have? HH: 00:26:41 Well, we just had, well, February was when the 9066 bill, you know, what do they call it? KK: 00:26:52 Executive Order HH: 00:26:52 Executive Order 9066 and then we may, may, so we had three months. But one of my friends, she lived in Terminal Island, so they just had like 48 hours. KK: 00:27:10 What was it like for you to have to leave your home and your life behind to face such an unknown future? HH: 00:27:17 Well, you know, a lot of that is just sort of blurred and we just like in a daze and we have to go. So we just packed our clothes and whatever, like, well, we were just asked, we could just take one bag anyway, so. And then some of the things, our next door neighbor Mrs. Smith, she ,much of our, not, maybe furniture, too. She kept in her garage and I don' ; t know where. My sister took care of much of that. But it, it was just a frenzied time. That' ; s all I remember. KK: 00:28:05 So you had a neighbor look after your belongings when you guys left? HH: 00:28:09 The next door neighbor that I mentioned. Yes, she did. KK: 00:28:13 Did, was your family able to somehow not be financially completely financially destitute because of this kind of chaos? They tried to sell everything, like were they able to maintain something of a profit? HH: 00:28:33 No, not at all. We just had to go in to Santa Anita. That was the first place that we were asked to go. Yeah. KK: 00:28:50 So Santa Anita is the race track-- HH: 00:28:53 in Arcadia, California. KK: 00:28:58 What was Santa Anita like? HH: 00:29:01 Well, they go racetrack and I didn' ; t even hear of it. I didn' ; t even know about racetracks then. But the horse stable, well, one of my friends, she lived in the horse stable but we were way at the end ' ; cause I think we were one of the last streets to, to go. And so we lived in " ; Y. It was like A-B-C-D.-E-F, so " ; Y" ; was at the end of the--. It might be like Colorado Boulevard. It' ; s, are you familiar with Arcadia? Oh, you' ; re not from the West Coast, okay. Right. But anyway, it' ; s at the end, the end of the racetrack. That' ; s where they put ius you know, barracks there. And the only thing, I just remember one, there was a riot and I' ; m not sure what it was. I think it was the,, someone just said, " ; Oh, there was a Korean, a spy." ; But I, I don' ; t know but that was probably just rumor, whatever. But I think maybe they had the, you know, they were doing those nets -- camouflage nets, and I think they, they were striking for better food and hours, and whatever. But the only thing I remember is all of these soldiers coming through the, going up and down and taking our like knitting needles and knives. HH: 00:30:54 Oh. And I did go through, I was doing a journal and someone said, " ; Oh, you better cross out all the names you have on there." ; So I remember going through that journal and just crossing out names of people that I, just day to day, whatever, what' ; s going on. I was just making an account of it. HH: 00:31:17 But the happy part was that I did work in the milk station with my friend Kiku Fukuyama. And we were milk station mates there and that was enjoyable part of it. And then, of course, the other thing was the food was terrible and people were always sick and I really was very sick from all of that. So whatever contamination from the, from the food, because I' ; m sure the water system wasn' ; t the best of all because they just, they just built it, in what, a couple of months. Right there on the racetrack. KK: 00:32:00 What kind of food were you eating? HH: 00:32:05 I just don' ; t remember. I just know it was bad. [laughs] It was awful. It' ; s mostly starch. Oh, one thing I do remember, they thought because we were Japanese that we liked rice. Yeah, we do like rice, but they just gave us rice pudding. And it was just, they must' ; ve just made it with water and rice and a little bit, not sugar probably ' ; cause it was rationed and NOBODY ate it. I could remember it because we never, I never even was familiar with rice pudding, you know, so. But people would go to, the young kids would go to different, there are about six, mess halls and so they would, they would know what was the good one and go to the right one, you know, whatever. That, that I remember. And I guess maybe the quote " ; better cooks" ; were over there, whatever. KK: 00:33:04 I' ; m wondering, how did you know what to pack? How did you decide what you wanted to bring with you? HH: 00:33:09 I don' ; t remember--what. KK: 00:33:14 Do you remember if it was difficult for you at all? Trying to figure out what to bring? Was it an easy process? Difficult? HH: 00:33:21 No, I really don' ; t remember. I' ; ve marvel that we packed whatever in one bag. So I really don' ; t remember what we took with us. KK: 00:33:37 So after living in Santa Anita for a few months, you then went to Granada, Amache in Colorado, It' ; s interesting that you were born there and lived there and then they send you back. HH: 00:33:57 Right, right. Yes. [laughs] And of course this wasn' ; t Denver. It was southeastern, southeastern Colorado, which was so cold. I think it was below zero during the winter and thunderstorms. And the sand was the worst. I had never seen sand. And it would blow and then the rain would come and it would plaster all the sand right on the windows and you couldn' ; t see out. And that was really just so uncomfortable. Yeah. KK: 00:34:34 So what were some of the worst aspects of living in camp there? Obviously the weather is terrible, HH: 00:34:42 Right. But I think it was just the, the everyday, going to the-- Well the showers were all just all one, you know, without any partitions or whatever. Everybody would try to go at night, but then people, you know, ' ; cause they didn' ; t want to go during the day to be seen, but then people were going at night and, you know, just sort of, I think I just kind of blocked all of that out. And my father did work cleaning the latrines though. That' ; s all I remember. That that was his job. KK: 00:35:24 Are there any other specific stories or descriptions you have about living at Amache? HH: 00:35:31 Well, I think that there were two things that I' ; d never done before, of course. And one was I volunteered to be the secretary for the block manager. Of course, they' ; re all Issei. And so somehow I translated the Japanese into English and I still do have the, that notebook that I wrote all the minutes in there. And then the other was I thought, well, I' ; d love to get a job. And there was an opening for a secretary in the home economics department. So I worked as a secretary there and the director was Mrs. Moore and she was just so lively and friendly and she really put a little bit more light in our lives really. And one of the things that every call that was so much fun was that when she somehow said, " ; Oh, you could go to Lamar and go to the theater to see " ; Gone with the Wind." ; Do you know " ; Gone with the Wind" ; with Clark Gable? HH: 00:36:57 So when we went there in May, I wanted to see the theater and we did try and it' ; s still there. Yeah, theater is there. And then she did, when I was going to leave the camp, she took me to the dry goods store there, too. She said chose any dress you' ; d like. So of course, of course I chose the most expensive one, which is like $25, which is a lot then, and I still can see it today. It was a two piece plaid real really, ' ; cause I didn' ; t have any clothes, you know, decent enough to go to school. And then, um, oh yeah, those were the two things. I think that she really helped to me keep my, what is it, sense of depression, you know. KK: 00:38:00 She helped with morale, maybe? HH: 00:38:04 Right. Yes. KK: 00:38:06 What was her connection to the camp? Was she the supervisor for the home economics department? Was she hired from the, by the military? HH: 00:38:18 I don' ; t know what that was. KK: 00:38:18 Was she Japanese American? HH: 00:38:22 No, I guess each state had its own director of the, of the center. And because the teachers were all from Colorado, you know, some of the Nisei were there, but then they had hired teachers from, who came to the, to the school. Yeah. KK: 00:38:55 And then you, yourself, you worked as a teacher, right? For Shizu Fukuyama? HH: 00:39:01 Oh, it' ; s three nights a week. I would go over and she' ; s just, lived two units down. And she wanted to keep in touch with her son and he was like, he was one of the first ones to volunteer for the Army service. So she didn' ; t know how to type. So I taught her to type and then brush up on her English so she could send letters to, you know. And her daughter Fumi did write a book or put together all the letters that he sent her throughout his, when he was in Camp Savage. And then then he was in military MIS, but she was determined because she said, " ; I just have to keep in touch with my son" ; so she would, you know. And one of the letters, it' ; s so interesting, she' ; s to him, she had typed, you know, " ; A-S -D-F" ; and said here' ; s my typing lesson. And she wrote, sent that letter to him and I, I have that. KK: 00:40:20 So you, when did you leave camp? HH: 00:40:26 I left in May ' ; 43 to attend school. That the American Friends Service Committee and the Japanese, no, the American Service Committee and the Nisei Student Relocation Council formed, monetary tuition scholarships so we could attend school. And primarily the schools that were affiliated with the churches accepted the Nisei, yeah. HH: 00:41:01 So I was able to go to Kansas, Baker University, which is near Topeka. And again, everything was kind of isolated and my roommates were just, and their families were all so kind to me so I had no problems. Just the one thing when I was waiting on the um, the Goat the day, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a bus or train from Colorado to Kansas and I was sitting on the platform. And the lady sitting next to me and she just said, " ; Are you Indian?" ; I didn' ; t know what she was talking about, but I guess there' ; s a, there was a school in Lawrence, which was the all-Indian school for Indian children. And I didn' ; t even think about segregation or anything at that time. And then there was a sign that said " ; Colored" ; and " ; White" ; and again I didn' ; t know what that was. And it was an indication of the toilet facilities. And like I say, I don' ; t remember which one I went into though. So that was my first experience of some kind of discrimination at the time. KK: 00:42:28 Um, your father, you' ; re studying in Kansas, you' ; re studying sociology, economics, and things like that? HH: 00:42:36 Sociology was what I, that was my, and, and home economics. I think those two. Right. And the thing is, when I was ready to graduate, that Mrs. Hedrick, the family that I had stayed with the first semester. " ; What are you going to do?" ; " ; I don' ; t know. I guess I will be a social worker." ; " ; Oh, you can' ; t." ; And you' ; re going to have to have a Master' ; s. So she said, why didn' ; t you take education courses? So I stayed another semester so that I could take more courses to meet the educa-- certification requirement. HH: 00:43:21 But, so in October, what happened to your father at the end of 1943? HH: 00:43:30 Oh, let' ; s see. I was only at school about a month and then he, he, he unfortunately, he had rectal cancer and he died in Amache. So I was, of course I went to the funeral, but I wasn' ; t able to return any other time. That was the only time. That' ; s the reason why I had to spend all my holidays for the two and a half years with families of my roommates. And of course everyone was really very supportive and I was very grateful that, that I had someplace to go because I couldn' ; t go back to camp or to the internment center. KK: 00:44:15 So in the two and a half year, did you see your mother or your sibllings at all? HH: 00:44:20 No. No, I didn' ; t get to see any of them. KK: 00:44:24 Was it difficult for you? HH: 00:44:26 Well, yes, but, you know, I was so busy because I was working full time and taking a whole load so I didn' ; t really have time to worry about, I guess, just trying to get an education and pay for my schooling. But, but like I say, if it weren' ; t for my roommates inviting me to their homes, you know, I probably would have really been quite depressed about it, you know. KK: 00:45:01 How... Go ahead. Sorry I' ; m making you talk so much. HH: 00:45:02 [Laughs and takes another drink of water.] KK: 00:45:02 I' ; m curious about how your, I' ; m wondering how your father' ; s death affected you and the rest of your family? HH: 00:45:24 Well, you know, it' ; s during the war and everything was just, we didn' ; t know what was going to happen. And, of course, I had two older sisters who were, especially Rose, she really was like the head of the house and she really did a lot to help us keep going and it, it was hard for my mother, you know. Right. KK: 00:46:00 We hear a lot of stories about the inadequate medical facilities that the camps had. Do you know if, if that had anything to do with your father' ; s passing away? HH: 00:46:16 Well, my sister worked. She was a medical secretary in Santa Anita and in Amache so she did know what was, probably had some inkling as to what was going on. She said that he was diagnosed with tuberculosis. That was the first, and so that might' ; ve been, you know, I' ; m sure there were many other people who, who did experience a similar kind of-- KK: 00:46:56 Can you remember anything else your sister might' ; ve mentioned to you about what the medical facilities there were like? What the environment was like to work in? HH: 00:47:07 I just remember she really enjoyed it. I mean working with the with the doctors and she was able to continue that when we went to Chicago and she did. I think the experience in camp did help her to, for her secretarial, medical secretary position in Chicago at Saint Luke' ; s Hospital. Then she, she was always very positive about the, there many, I just remember all the Nisei doctors that were there. She would talk about them. KK: 00:47:54 How did your family end up in Chicago? HH: 00:48:00 I think it was just jobs were announced, openings were quite available and so she did say, " ; Well, let' ; s go to Chicago." ; And my other sister was married and she also went to Chicago and it was very, a welcoming city. There was a hostel here and housing, you know, opportunities for housing. And I think that was just, and we didn' ; t have anything to go back to in LA because we didn' ; t, we just rented, rented a house. KK: 00:48:52 Did you ever keep in touch with, was it Mrs. Smith you neighbor who had kind of stored your belongings, HH: 00:49:01 Right. Oh yes. She, she kept in touch with us all throughout the war and, and then we did receive some of our things that she had taken care of. KK: 00:49:18 Okay. We' ; re almost done. I' ; m so sorry this is going so long, but I believe your story is super fascinating. Um, did you reunite with your family in Chicago from Kansas? HH: 00:49:30 Yes, I did. I didn' ; t come until, I think it was January or February ' ; 46 and then I was really sick when I came and partly was from the contamination of the foods, I think from the, from the living conditions in the camp. So I did have a, so I was really very sick and tired, too, from working and taking courses so. KK: 00:50:04 Okay. So even, you know, years after you left the camp, you were still, your health was still being effective because of the conditions? HH: 00:50:13 Right. Yes. KK: 00:50:18 Can you tell me about living in Chicago? We can end talking about your life in Chicago. So resettlement in the city. Um, yeah. What it like first coming here and trying to establish a home? HH: 00:50:30 Well, mainly, housing was such a difficult, a difficult problem because it was still restrictive housing and we just lived in Woodlawn and the building where we lived and it was all the owners, whoever owned the building had cut them up into like three families. So we all shared one little old dinky, I don' ; t know if you even call it a bathroom, I just couldn' ; t see , uh, how. Bathtub and a toilet was just all dread (?) and no light. The light bulbs were just, you know just kind of dangling. And it was quite uncomfortable and that' ; s where we had a, there was a fire and kids were playing with matches and we just had two rooms. So there was like five or six of us and just a kitchen and bedroom (unclear). And my mother had things stored under the bed. That' ; s how much much of our things were burned in the fire. So that, that, that was very uncomfortable. But it took so long just to find decent, decent housing. That was the hardest thing. But jobs were very plentiful. So that was a plus. KK: 00:52:05 What did you do once you came to Chicago? HH: 00:52:11 I had to, continue education classes ' ; cause Chicago their certification was a little bit, I guess you' ; d call it, they required more classes than the Kansas certification. So I had to go to school and take some more classes, teachers college and then, then I was able to do a child care program at night at the Institute for Psychoanalysis. And finally I did, was able to teach in the City Colleges of Chicago training, training teachers for early childhood. But before that I worked at the University of Chicago Laboratory School. That was really a challenge and the director who was there, she really taught me more than I could get in books I think because it was very practical and the children were quite highly gifted children. I really enjoyed that experience the most. KK: 00:53:26 May I ask how you met your husband? HH: 00:53:29 He was a teacher in the same school that I was teaching. We were teaching in a special education school and he was fifth grade and I was in the kindergarten and that' ; s where, yeah. But unfortunately he died very young, at the prime of his life, and so my, my children were just late teenagers and that was very hard. KK: 00:53:58 Were you ever discriminated against for being with someone who wasn' ; t Japanese American? HH: 00:54:06 No, not really. His family was a good Irish Catholic family and there were so much, a big family. He had like eight brothers and sisters and then seven half brothers and sisters and everyone, really, family picnics and holidays. And he was a wonderful cook and a baker. So we really enjoyed our early, early lives living in, we lived in the South Side of Chicago at the time. KK: 00:54:45 So if you were in public together as a family, did you ever experience-- HH: 00:54:51 No. KK: 00:54:52 -- any maybe offensive comments? HH: 00:54:56 No, I think we were lucky that we didn' ; t. KK: 00:55:00 That' ; s good. Yeah, okay. So we really talked a lot. I' ; m going to ask maybe two more questions. I' ; m wondering what you think. Uh, sorry. Really quickly, you said that you felt like Chicago was a welcoming city. What made you think that or feel that way? What was it about the city that seemed welcoming to you? HH: 00:55:33 Besides, just, I just mentioned that the housing was difficult, but I thought the people wherever we went, except just this one agency when I first applied, the man said, " ; I think you' ; d have better luck in Wisconsin." ; And that' ; s the reason why I went and took additional courses. So I thought, well, I could, you know, be more prepared for teaching. Yeah. But in general, the whole city was, and the people that I met, wherever I work, everyone was very friendly and you know, there was no discrimination. I know maybe my friends have mentioned it, but I haven' ; t, I didn' ; t really experience any kind of racial epitaphs to me, maybe in the back they might, but, you know, not to my face or whatever. KK: 00:56:27 Okay. Just two more questions. I' ; m wondering has, has the incarceration of Japanese Americans, has that affected you and, and, and if so, how has that, the legacy of the camps really manifested itself in your own life and also, perhaps, in your children' ; s lives? HH: 00:56:56 Well, I think one of the things that I remember, it' ; s talking about Mr. Richardson, our teacher that he always said to read, read, read, ; be aware, know what' ; s going on in your community or know what' ; s going on in the world. And then also the, the significance of whatever goes on. And so that' ; s what I' ; ve tried to do. And I think that helped to give me a more, a positive feeling because I did have a lot of support. So I know all Americans aren' ; t like whatever happened to us at that time. And I just feel that if you just remain bitter, it' ; s not helpful in general. So I think that' ; s probably what has kept me going because of the support that I had early, all my life. KK: 00:57:55 Okay. Um, my last question is a positive one. Sorry, all of these the questions have been so sad. But, I' ; m wondering maybe what your hopes are for your grandchildren and their children' ; s children and it just helps for future generations and what you want to see existing in this world. And also if you have any advice for people. HH: 00:58:22 I would say that to remember their, the remarkable journey of their immigrant grandparents. That would be one thing. And as I mentioned before, to know what' ; s, to know what' ; s going on around, around you, and also to just remain positive and know that America is ultimately a place where fairness and justice remains. And I think that would be something that we need to, especially today, what' ; s going on today. And then, oh, and lastly, to retain some kind of creative venture or hobby in your life, so that will last a lifetime and then you won' ; t be bored and depressed. KK: 00:59:39 You have a creative hobby.? HH: 00:59:41 Yes, I, well, I' ; ve always, music has been, as I said, I started when I was like four or five and yes, music, music is something that I really appreciate so much. And then I do, right now I' ; m in the middle of scrapbooking. Are you familiar with Creative Memories? It' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s all, and I tried to and that I could incorporat so art activities, that keeps me really busy. KK: 01:00:17 Great. Okay. Not to sell, stay busy. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you that you wish I asked you or anything you want to mention that I didn' ; t touch upon? HH: 01:00:30 Oh, you know, I saw the pictures of when it was---the exhibition and they just reminded me when you were asking me about the school and summertime. I' ; d worked at Excelsior Springs, Missouri and, you have a picture of three fellows there that were, I said, " ; Oh my goodness. I know those guys." ; Yeah. So I was a, sold water. In those days. I don' ; t know what it was like, a penny? And it' ; s supposed to be really magic water that will help you to lose weight or keep your bones strong. HH: 01:01:16 And the other was, I was a night clerk at the-- and I was supposed to use, what do you call it, the--They don' ; t have that kind of system anymore. You had to plug in the, do you know what I' ; m talking about? The telephone system. A switched board, but you plug into the different rooms and I just remember forgetting to plug in this, supposed to wake this guy up and he came through that lobby. Oh, he was so mad and I just turned around and pretend like I even-- But anyway, that picture reminded me of that summer that I worked in Excelsior Springs and it was so hot and, but it was all Nisei. They had hired bus boys and I think they were elevator operators, those fellows. Right. So that was an interesting memory then. KK: 01:02:22 So in between the school years, over the summers, would you work at different jobs? HH: 01:02:28 Yes. Right. And one year I worked in Boston. It' ; s " ; Fresh Air Camp" ; with the children from, let' ; s see, I can' ; t remember now, the name of the town. But anyway, it was called South Ethel ,and it was by the Goodwill Industries. And the lady that was, her father was head of Goodwill so we were counselors and I' ; d never been a counselor before. But anyway, that was an interesting job in Massachusetts. Yeah. That summer. And I think that' ; s when I was able to go to the Boston Symphony, summer. It was, they were playing and Leonard Bernstein, he was just starting. He was only in his twenties, I think. And he, that was one of his first jobs, and I didn' ; t know of course who he was. But today I said, " ; Oh, I heard Leonard Bernstein when he was just a kid." ; [laughs] That was really interesting. KK: 01:03:43 Well it sounds like you' ; ve had just a lifetime of adventures. You' ; ve been through a lot. Is there anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up? HH: 01:03:55 I think you covered the waterfront. KK: 01:03:59 Sorry. I know we had to do a lot of work, a lot of talking. Okay. Well, I' ; m going to turn this off. Thank you, HH: 01:04:04 Okay. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoganHannah20171116.xml HoganHannah20171116.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoganHannah20171116.xml
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Hogan, Hannah (11/16/2017)
Description
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Hannah Hogan is a second generation (Nisei) Japanese American. In this interview, she shares memories of her early life in Denver and Los Angeles and describes the atmosphere of tense anxiety in the Los Angeles Japanese American community after Pearl Harbor. She describes having to leave school when her family's financial assets were frozen, being fired from her job at the Department of Motor Vehicles, the FBI taking male community leaders into custody, and the rush to sell or store personal possessions. She also describes the difficult conditions she experienced at Santa Anita and Amache, her early departure to attend college in Kansas, and the death of her father from illness in camp. She recounts her family's reasons for resettling in Chicago and some of the housing, work, and educational experiences of the early resettlement period.
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2017-11-16
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ideno, Helen
Interview Keyword
Torrance
Santa Anita
Granada
Amache
West Side
Midwest Buddhist Temple
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/24/2017 Ideno, Helen (8/24/2017) 0:34:32 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Torrance Santa Anita Granada Amache West Side Midwest Buddhist Temple Ideno, Helen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307588911 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307588911?h=b7ad0c4af2" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Helen Ideno is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American born in Torrance, CA shortly before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. During WWII, she and her family were incarcerated at Santa Anita and Amache, after which they resettled in Chicago. In this interview she shares what she knows of her family's incarceration experience and her own memories of growing up on Chicago's West Side where there were few other Japanese Americans. She recounts deciding to become more actively involved with the Midwest Buddhist Temple as a teenager, through which she was able to participate in Japanese American community activities. She also describes her experiences as a teacher and the ways in which she has tried to pass her heritage on to her children and grandchildren. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Helen Ideno: 00:00 I' ; m Helen Ideno and I live in Park Ridge, Illinois. Anna Takada: 00:04 And uh, where, where were you born? HI: 00:07 I was born in Torrance, California, October 3rd, 1941. AT: 00:16 And where, where is, is Torrance? HI: 00:18 Outside of Los Angeles. AT: 00:21 And so when, um, when the war broke out, where was your family sent? HI: 00:29 Uh, where were we living? AT: 00:31 Sent. HI: 00:32 Oh, sent? Well after, uh, when they got the notice we, they first went to, we all went to Santa Anita Racetrack and of course, you know, you could only take what you could carry. My mother always said she carried me and my baby clothes and my father carried my older brother, he was a year older, and his baby clothes. AT: 00:56 Was it just the two of you? HI: 00:58 The two children, yes. And my father drove a truck there. While he was an auto mechanic, he had his own gas station and auto repair shop. My mother was, uh, became the bookkeeper after she graduated from high school. That' ; s where they met and married and married later, 1939. Umm ... my father always said that when they first went to the racetrack, they didn' ; t even bother cleaning out the manure from the stables. So my uncle and my father helped clean out the stables and it was one family per stable. And we stayed there six months until the barracks were built in Colorado. And so then after six months we took the train to Colorado. My understanding is that the shades had to be down. And you couldn' ; t look out. Um ... my brother was born in Amache in 1943, um, my mother says that this thing she remembers most is standing lines everywhere you went, you stand in lines, to latrine, to the laundry, to the meals. I was a baby. I don' ; t really remember anything. I only know stories. There is a picture of me playing with a little broken toy that somebody must' ; ve donated. Um, my father being an auto mechanic was able to get a job driving a truck in camp and he had a cousin in Colorado who was a farmer. So he was able to get a job with his cousin. So he had a job and a place to stay. So he stayed there for a year and then he was free to go. He drove to Chicago to find a job and a place to stay and he said, never go let your gas tank go less than half a tank. Because as he was driving there, he never knew if, if the service station would give him gas or not, would serve him. Some would, some wouldn' ; t. So he found a place to stay on the West Side of Chicago, which is where we lived. AT: 04:16 Where on the West Side? HI: 04:22 California and Van Buren. I went to elementary school. I was the only Japanese, well except for my uncle who also um, came to the West Side to live, uh, in fact, he stayed with mom for awhile. He was five years older than me, so mom took care of my uncle for awhile. Um, I, my older brother also, um, uh, well we were the only family in this whole school, Calhoun School. My uncle got beat up a lot. Oh, we were family of four children by now. My, my have a younger sister. Sharon was born in Granada just in 1944. So she was laid out just, um, she was born just after my mother was got out of the camp. Um ... my earliest memory really is of Chicago sitting in the yard making mud pies. AT: 05:41 Outside of your home? HI: 05:41 Outside in Chicago, in the yard. I didn' ; t really feel that, uh, people were prejudiced against us. I know there were a lot of Italians and Germans living in the same neighborhood and everyone was friendly to me. So I didn' ; t have a problem with that. My older brother - my mother says, we all spoke Japanese until I was five years old. My older brother was, was uh, a, taken to a, what is it to, uh, the speech class. Had to take speech class and my mother felt that was so disgraceful that from that point on we just spoke English. So I know no Japanese at all. AT: 06:43 And at what point - so you were very young and um, HI: 06:48 Yes. AT: 06:48 In camps. So at what point did you learn about what your family had experienced? HI: 06:58 Uh, my parents never talked about it. I mean my Aunt Jessie Morisato, would talk to me about it. And I, when I remember in high school - I went to Marshall High School - I would look in the history book looking for some information on it and there was nothing, nothing at all in the history books. Now my mother was valedictorian of her class and I was Valedictorian in my class and I wrote a speech which the principal had to vet and I wrote about going to camp and she insisted that all of it had to be taken out. I could not give that speech. Um, after that I went to, um, maybe pier, first two years at Navy Pier, and then, a year and half downstate where I got my elementary education certificate. Then I taught at um, Elmwood Park, no, Susan taught at Elmwood Park, I have forgotten now. Anyway, then I taught at Bellwood, in Bellwood and then came to Chicago to teach because I didn' ; t like the drive. AT: 08:37 Um, so can you, uh, can you describe what, what it was like growing up, uh, on the West Side of Chicago? HI: 08:51 As I said, I was, I was fine. I had friends. I think my uncle, as I said, my uncle had really harder time. AT: 09:04 Were you aware that you were Japanese or that? HI: 09:08 Yes. You know, I was, it wasn' ; t until I was eight years old did I realize my name was not Tatty Mary, that' ; s what they all said. Tatty Mary, instead of Tademaru. So they always mispronounced the name and I must' ; ve felt guilt because I remember being very, very, very shy and the gym teacher always coming to me and telling me to sit up straight. AT: 09:37 And your friends, um, did you uh, did you know other Japanese Americans? HI: 09:43 No, no. None at all except when we would have a cousin or something come and visit. In fact, that' ; s one reason I started to join the uh, Midwest Buddhist temple. I knew we were members, but we' ; d never gone because my father worked very hard and Sundays, he' ; s working. So I started going on my own, on the bus to the Midwest Buddhist temple and there I met Japanese people. AT: 10:19 How long was that commute? HI: 10:21 I was 15. Oh, it was, we just take the bus to Ogden avenue and Ogden Ave to North Avenue. AT: 10:33 And that was when you were a teenager? HI: 10:35 15. AT: 10:39 Um, did you do any extracurriculars or any activities outside of school? HI: 10:45 I went to the art institute once a week since I was 10. They didn' ; t have things for girls. There was, there was no girls team of any kind. I remember when I was 10 years old, I wanted to learn to swim because I felt that was important. My mother took me to the YWCA and obviously they didn' ; t want me in because they said I had athlete' ; s feet, which I did. But it was a, a sign. I remember taking ballet lessons with a friend' ; s mother. AT: 11:33 And your siblings, did they do anything? HI: 11:39 My older brother, my younger brother, were allowed to go to the park. They had bikes. They were free to do whatever they wished. They could play wherever. Whereas I was restricted to the home. AT: 11:54 And your younger sister? HI: 11:58 Wherever I went, I did take my younger sister with me. So if I was invited to birthday party, younger sister came along. AT: 12:06 And what are the, what are their names of your siblings? HI: 12:12 Ah, my older brother was Roy. He was a year older. Uh, my younger brother, Eugene, was born in 1943 he was a year and a half younger. And my sister was born in 1944. Karen. AT: 12:31 And did you, did you ever talk about um, the incarceration with your siblings at all? I know everyone was children. HI: 12:46 Very little. Yes. I mean, of course they' ; re interested as I am in the history of it. Never with my mother. She never wanted to talk about it or my father. Except this one time the, my mother was in a book for her Valedictorian speech from elementary school was published and the granddaughter of this published of this author wanted to remake it. So she would have, she had questions that my mother had to ask and answer. So one of the questions was, what is the happiest thing you remember from camp? My mother said nothing. No happy memories. AT: 13:38 And when, uh, the principal censored your speech, HI: 13:47 Dr Lawley. Yes. AT: 13:55 What, what was your response, how did you, how did you feel and how, how did you handle that? HI: 14:05 I was very obedient. You know, this is 1958. You don' ; t fight the authority. AT: 14:18 Did you understand why? HI: 14:20 Oh yes, yes, I understood the prejudice. She did not want to make waves. She later became a superintendent. Yes. You know. AT: 14:39 So somehow talking about that would be controversial or? HI: 14:43 She must' ; ve thought so. AT: 14:49 And did you, that you know of, did your siblings have any kinds of experiences like that in Chicago? HI: 14:56 No, no, but I doubt that they tried to talk about the camp. AT: 15:17 And then, um, so you said when you were 15 years old you got involved with the Midwest Buddhist temple, HI: 15:27 Uh huh AT: 15:28 And that was the first time that you were spending time with other Japanese Americans. Um, can you talk a little bit more about that experience of, of getting involved with? HI: 15:40 Oh, well I, I certainly enjoyed it uh. You know, all the different activities, the Ginza, the Obon, and of course they had, as my husband mentioned, uh, almost weekend dances. So that was fun. AT: 16:00 And what was that like having gone through what, you know, your childhood of not, um, being around other folks and families like yours to all of a sudden, um, you know, kind of being immersed in that community? HI: 16:19 Oh, I enjoyed it tremendously. Broadening. AT: 16:25 Broadening? HI: 16:25 It was broadening, yes! AT: 16:25 In, in what way? HI: 16:25 Besides, it was nice to - to do different things. In high school there were two other, two other Japanese, I remember that now. AT: 16:44 And so then were your friends growing up, um, like what kind of ethnicities? HI: 16:52 Oh, Caucasian, um, Jewish. AT: 17:07 And was that, was identity ever like, uh, very present or understood? Or did people not think about it or talk about it? HI: 17:18 What do you mean? AT: 17:19 Like, um, like in, in your, in your friend circles, um. HI: 17:29 You' ; re asking did I feel Japanese? No, I just felt like American like they were. AT: 17:35 Um, so Marshall High School that' ; s on the South Side? HI: 17:48 West Side. AT: 17:49 The West Side. And then was it a big change going to college? HI: 17:55 Oh yes. That' ; s why I didn' ; t want to go away. I stayed, I stayed home for the first two years. I was only 16, so - AT: 18:02 You were 16 when you started so. Was that, was that typical to be so young? HI: 18:10 Um, yes I, I, uh, I skipped a couple of grades. They didn' ; t have enrichment programs like they do now. So their way of, of coping with less intelligent was just push him up a grade. AT: 18:33 Did, and did you start off on a, on a track of education, um, like to become a teacher? HI: 18:40 Oh yes. I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. AT: 18:43 Do you know where that desire or passion came from? HI: 18:46 First Grade. AT: 18:51 What happened in first grade? HI: 18:53 Oh, I love learning. I love my teacher. AT: 18:55 Was - that was at Calhoun? HI: 19:04 Uh hum AT: 19:04 Do you remember your teacher' ; s name? HI: 19:06 Isn' ; t that funny? No, I think she was Irish. AT: 19:12 And, and so from school, what was your first, first teaching position? Your first teaching position? HI: 19:27 Oh, at Bellwood elementary. Um, Bellwood, uh, Illinois. Um, I was a fifth grade teacher. AT: 19:35 How long were you there? HI: 19:39 I only, I only stayed there half a year because I didn' ; t like to drive. So I transferred to a school close or West Side school close by. AT: 19:50 And what has that been like teaching in Chicago over the years? HI: 19:58 It was, you know, it was a lot easier when I first started teaching. I remember I had 40 kids in my classroom. And you think that' ; s horrible, right? But they were good kids and I had no trouble because you have their respect of the parents. All you have to say to a child who was misbehaving, " ; do you want me to call your parents?" ; Nope. Very different from today where parents don' ; t seem to respect teachers. AT: 20:28 How would you say that it' ; s changed over the years in your career? HI: 20:34 Um, I would say that was the biggest thing when I first started. Parents always back the teachers. Nowadays you get kids whose parents will say, my darling would never do that. They would take the kids words over the teachers. AT: 20:56 And which, which subjects would you teach? HI: 21:02 I taught kindergarten for four years. I loved that. I taught third grade. I will, well, I, I taught a lot of grades and then I became a teacher librarian. I stayed home with the children for 12 years. And then I got my masters in library science at what was then Rosary College. AT: 21:27 And for those different grades, does that mean you' ; re teaching all of the different subjects? So math, science? HI: 21:33 Oh yes, the elementary. Elementary, yes. It was always elementary. In fact, the first time was I got to teach PE, which is probably my worst subject [laughing]. AT: 21:46 Did you have a favorite subject to teach kids? HI: 21:50 Oh, that' ; s tough. I like all the subjects, but I like math a lot and I like art a lot. Science a lot. AT: 22:02 Um, did you have flexibility in, in curriculum? So for, for example, for, for history, were you able to teach about the internment? HI: 22:13 Oh yes, it' ; s, that part is totally different now, of course, because they teach that in eighth grade. It is a part of the curriculum, so that' ; s good. AT: 22:24 So have you, have you, have you taught that subject? HI: 22:26 I don' ; t teach eighth grade. AT: 22:29 Okay, um, so you, you never - HI: 22:33 Nope, I' ; d given speeches for the eighth grade teacher. AT: 22:38 As a part of the lesson? HI: 22:39 As a part, as a part of the, the lesson, yes. AT: 22:41 So was, what was that like for you? HI: 22:47 Like this only, I was more composed then. AT: 23:01 Did you - when you had children, were you sharing with them about your family' ; s experiences? HI: 23:08 Oh, we never had it. Um, when it would come up in that curriculum, I think that' ; s when we talked about it. AT: 23:22 Was that something like they would learn in school and then ask questions? HI: 23:29 Umhum, or if there' ; s something like this, we could take them to that. We took our, all our grandchildren, just not all three of our grandchildren last week to see this exhibit. AT: 23:46 And why is that, um, why is that important to you to take them and share with them? HI: 23:59 So that they understand our history and to make sure that this never happens again. AT: 24:17 And I' ; m going to pose the same question to you that I did to your husband. Um, if you, if you could leave, um, your children and your grandchildren, your family with some kind of message or legacy, what would you want to leave them on? HI: 24:42 I think my answer would be the same, but they should understand what has happened in the past so that it won' ; t happen again. I feel very fortunate. The most part I have not felt the prejudice, but I do remember when I taught third grade for the, in Chicago, my very first year, there was this one teacher. She was extremely mean to me. She was a first grade teacher. I never understood why until the end of the year. She said to me, she was sorry, but she had a son who died in World War II and that was her reason. AT: 25:43 There, is there anything else that you would want to, to add or, or share? um - HI: 26:30 I remember when I was going to college, downstate, to Urbana-Champaign. So often I got questions from other students. How long have you been in our country? I got that question an awful lot. And I would say all my life, my mother was born in California, my father was born in Hawai' ; i, so I' ; m third generation. AT: 27:21 And um, do you mind, actually before we wrap up, we talk a little bit more about your, your parents and their stories? HI: 27:35 Uh hum. AT: 27:35 Um, so just about where, where they were born and, and how they got to, um, Torrance. HI: 27:45 Ah, um, I' ; m told that in 1896 on my father' ; s, on my mother' ; s side. Your father, you' ; re, nope, I' ; ve forgotten the grandfather, your father, my grandfather and his father came on the second boat out of Hiroshima, went through Seattle, down to California and, and worked on a farm there. Um, then in 1916 he was 10 years old at the time. In 1916 he went back to Hiroshima and picked up my grandma. He didn' ; t trust picture brides and then they came to California, and farmed, uh, farmed there. Uh, on my father' ; s side in 1896, uh, they went to Hawai' ; i and worked in the pineapple fields. When my father was born, he was in fact - well not born - when he was about five years old so. He went back to, he was sent back to Japan to be raised by his grandparents and then he came to United States, what, when he was about 18 years old or so? Learned a trade, bought his gas station and so forth. AT: 29:28 Did he have experience with, with that kind of work in Japan or did he learn it new? HI: 29:36 He flew an airplane here. He was, he, I know he liked to fly airplanes. Where did he learn? HI' ; s Husband: 29:43 Japan! HI: 29:44 He learned to, to do auto mechanic work in Japan? I don' ; t know. HI' ; s Husband: 29:51 No, no, no HI: 29:52 No, no, here? He don' ; t know. He don' ; t know. AT: 29:53 And, where, where and how did your parents meet? HI: 30:02 As she, uh, graduated from high school and went to work for him as his bookkeeper. AT: 30:10 So that' ; s they met that way HI: 30:12 They met that way. AT: 30:17 Um, and do you have um, relatives who are also in the states that in the, um, you know, those earlier years that you know of, any aunts and uncles who came around the late 19th century? HI: 30:36 Um, any other relatives? No, grandma had six kids. She had a brother who came in, I hear, from Mexico but then was sent back to Japan. But he had, I guess, stepped on a nail or something and died on the way back. AT: 31:04 And how most of what you know about your family' ; s history is that just from asking her? Have you done any research or - HI: 31:14 No, I have not done research. My brother does that. AT: 31:20 It seems each family has a, and genealogist. HI: 31:24 Umhum AT: 31:30 And, um, have you, have you ever been to Japan to see who were ... HI: 31:42 Oh, we' ; ve been to Japan, what, twice, uh, we happened to Hiroshima, but we don' ; t speak Japanese and I did not know where they lived. Well we have cousins apparently, we have four cousins who live still in Hiroshima. The last time we were in Japan, I tried to contact a cousin of mine, Hirofumi, and I learned that he had died and I didn' ; t even know that. But if we ever go back we will try to contact them. My brother has visited them. AT: 32:26 And in your, in your adult life, um, how, how would you describe your, your connection to your Japanese heritage? HI: 32:36 Well, I don' ; t speak Japanese. I don' ; t understand it hardly. Um, I think it' ; s because I don' ; t, my parents didn' ; t want me to. Um, but I do - my children all learn among. I have three girls. They all took Japanese dancing. We always went to Obon and the Ginza at the church. AT: 33:09 Are you still involved with MBT or still a member? HI: 33:13 Still a member, yes. Less involvement. But I did work the Ginza last week. AT: 33:20 Thank you. We' ; re always grateful to have volunteers. HI: 33:25 And we still dance in Obon, which I have been doing since I was 15. AT: 33:31 And, and why has that been important for you to share with your children? HI: 33:36 Oh, I always want them to keep their heritage, to remember. We still celebrate, you know, new years cooking mochi all that, has to be the first bite. AT: 34:08 I think. I think that those are the questions I have for you unless there' ; s anything else you' ; d like to add? HI: 34:19 Yeah, just a lot harder than I thought. AT: 34:23 Thank you so much for sharing and for taking the time. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=IdenoHelen20170824.xml IdenoHelen20170824.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Oral History Interview: <a href="http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ideno, Kazuo Gene (8/24/2017)</a>
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Ideno, Helen (8/24/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Helen Ideno is a third generation (Sansei) Japanese American born in Torrance, CA shortly before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. During WWII, she and her family were incarcerated at Santa Anita and Amache, after which they resettled in Chicago. In this interview she shares what she knows of her family's incarceration experience and her own memories of growing up on Chicago's West Side where there were few other Japanese Americans. She recounts deciding to become more actively involved with the Midwest Buddhist Temple as a teenager, through which she was able to participate in Japanese American community activities. She also describes her experiences as a teacher and the ways in which she has tried to pass her heritage on to her children and grandchildren.
Date
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2017-08-24
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kagawa, Stephen
Interview Keyword
Hawaii
Sand Island
Jerome
Arkansas
Des Moines
Japanese American National Museum
Go for Broke
U.S. Japan Council
Sansei
Yonsei
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/1/2017 Kagawa, Stephen (11/1/2017) 0:43:13 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Hawaii Sand Island Jerome Arkansas Des Moines Japanese American National Museum Go for Broke U.S. Japan Council Sansei Yonsei Kagawa, Stephen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/297356907 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/297356907?h=fd8d3baa2b" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Stephen Kagawa is a fourth generation (Yonsei) Japanese American born and raised in Hawaii. In this interview, he shares what he has learned about his family's roots in Japan and immigration to Hawaii, and describes his paternal grandfather's interactions with the FBI and eventual detention at Sand Island after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He continues with his grandfather's transfer to Jerome, Arkansas, where his wife and children joined him. He describes his father's experiences as a child in Des Moines, Iowa where the family lived briefly before returning to Hawaii. In explaining his motivations for serving on the boards of the Japanese American National Museum, Go For Broke, and the U.S. Japan Council, he reveals that he knew none of his own family's incarceration history until adulthood and expresses his commitment to ensuring that this history is more widely known. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 So to start can you just state your full name? Stephen Kagawa: 00:03 My name is Stephen Lincoln Kagawa. AT: 00:08 Okay, and um, where, where are you from? SK: 00:11 I' ; m from Hawai' ; i, actually I' ; m from Kaneohe, Hawai' ; i. That' ; s where I grew up. AT: 00:18 And then so to start can you tell me a little bit about um maybe your parents where, where they were from? SK: 00:27 So my parents are both from Hawai' ; i. I' ; m actually a fourth generation American of Japanese ancestry and they' ; re both from Hawai' ; i. AT: 00:36 Do you know anything about your grandparents or your great grandparents. SK: 00:37 Sure. AT: 00:37 How they came to the U.S.? SK: 00:41 Both, both sides of my family, both my mother and father' ; s side come from Hiroshima. And we we speak mostly about my father' ; s side in typical Japanese form. And so my great grandfather boarded the SS [Bintala?] from Hiroshima to actually Draft Harbor of Yokohama, to come to the Kingdom of Hawai' ; i under the contract that was established between the monarchy in Hawai' ; i and of course Japan. And, and so he landed on Kohala Coast which is a big island of Hawai' ; i. And found his way to his new life his new dream which ended up being the irrigation canals they were bringing that, they were bringing the water down from the mountains of the big island to the parched land below that they were trying to harvest sugarcane. AT: 01:41 That was your? SK: 01:42 That was my dad' ; s side. My mother' ; s side is a little bit less talked about, um and so I don' ; t know the actual year in which he had he made his way and I' ; m getting some of that information, which is a typical situation that you all have generations after the fact, to sort of gather the real facts. In fact a lot of stories even about my my great grandfather and the place where we come from, and what the family did, was unknown. In fact put into books with improper facts as I was, as I visited Hiroshima and learned that my family was not rice farmers which we thought we were, but actually were from fishing villages. So you know you don' ; t have rice paddies in fishing villages. So we think, every day, or I should say every day, but on a regular basis to this day we' ; re learning about past history which has been quietly packed away like a treasure chest, right? That we just learning bits and pieces about. AT: 02:52 Is there anyone in your family that is mostly responsible for doing that work? SK: 02:57 Yeah me. AT: 03:00 You, you' ; re the family historian? SK: 03:00 I' ; ve actually become the family historian because it was actually a big book that was being written on my, my father. And my father, I was really focusing on my grandfather because of what he did in the life insurance, insurance industry. Because my grandfather was one who as a Nisei, you know, decided that as an American he wanted to be really an American. And he thought and fought for justice. And he was working in a trust company and he found that the community in Hawai' ; i which is predominantly Asian at the time, did not have the opportunities that their Caucasian neighbors had in reaching out for family security through life insurance industry. So the life insurance policies that you have access to were not of the same price, and and he thought that was unfair. And according to the life insurance companies the reason was they were looking at the mortality statistics from the country of the national origin. And so you can imagine Pre-World War II how maybe morality was a little different in the countries like Japan and others. And so my grandfather set out to, to look at the mortality statistics of the territory of Hawai' ; i, Hawai' ; i was not a state for a long time. But wouldn' ; t be a state for a long time from that point. Um and partnered with AP Giannini who founded the Bank of America and a small little life insurance company. And so the two of them got together and sort of abolished those discriminatory practices. And you know that' ; s that' ; s sort of my my grandfather' ; s rise to fame and I' ; m sorry because I can' ; t remember exactly what the question was it took me down that path but. AT: 04:58 Oh about family historian. SK: 05:01 So, so, but anyways, so. So you' ; re asking about historian, right. So, so um, they were writing a story about that. And my father focusing in on that story and then elaborating going backwards and then going forwards, really on my grandfather' ; s story. And as we went backwards to, to, to understand my grandfather' ; s experiences going as a, going back to Japan to learn the Japanese culture. Of course, coming back from Japan to actually open the first hotel in Kahului, Maui called the Kalau Hotel that actually opened my great grandfather. So he could operate it, my grandfather could operate it you know. And and it' ; s just amazing, as we kept going backwards, how little we knew, you know. And my father was not so well, as he was going through the book, and had to rely on other people. And so as I read the book and I started to read and put faces to the names and checked out the stories. It didn' ; t seem right. And there was a lot of things that really derived out of just out of ignorance. And so you fill a gap with something and that story sort of compiles and blossoms into something that really didn' ; t happen. And I thought that really wasn' ; t fair. You know fair to the people who are written up in the book, right? And the people that would read it, to you know, because history should be captured in a certain way, certainly it' ; s personal, right, because it' ; s their personal experiences their personal reflections and their personal observations about what those stories might be. But you know as as a as a is my father' ; s son I want to make sure that my father' ; s stories about my grandfather' ; s stories and his father' ; s stories and the families and you know everybody else, in between, that would be reflected at least in factual format when we involved history itself and the people that touched us through throughout that period of time. So it' ; s been an incredible journey, that I' ; m still learning and continue to learn. And I' ; m very fortunate because of what I' ; m doing, that I do have the opportunity to learn from places like this, Alphawood, right? And this amazing exhibition that you have. AT: 07:27 Have you done any of that kind of work, pertaining to your mom' ; s side? SK: 07:32 So yeah we just just started to do it. And my,, my mother my mother discounts a lot. Like a, she' ; s also, well, she' ; s Nisei, and my father' ; s Sansei. So I guess three point five. Right? But of course we again look at the father' ; s side. So I' ; m Yonsei, and, and so that' ; s how we do it, certainly in Hawai' ; i that' ; s how we do it. So my, mother discounts it and she discounts it because well there' ; s a lot of reasons you know a lot of it' ; s culturally, right? How they were brought up. She was the youngest child, in the family. And she discounted it because she' ; s on Maui. She discounts it because of, because they were not involved in the camps. She discounts it because they were also not involved in World War II, fighting as Nisei soldiers, as part of Go for Broke or for 442nd, or any of the regiments around that. So, so I' ; m sort of embarrassed you know because I was struggling to try to dig up the treasure that' ; s behind, you know, behind her stories, behind the the path and journey that the Yamashta, that she' ; s a Yamashta, we say Yamashita in Hawai' ; i. And, and uh, you know, and I really want to get to know that better, so. AT: 08:58 And uh, so can you tell me a little bit more about your, your family' ; s experiences during the wartime? SK: 09:10 During the war. So yeah it' ; s um. Well, my grandfather was the first leader of the Chamber of Commerce, the Japanese Chamber of Commerce in Hawai' ; i. First Nisei leader. And um, so, when the war broke out, um my, my grandfather was rallying the business community together. And of course as loyal Americans they were, because Nisei were fighting to be Americans, right? And um Issei, a lot of them were still holding onto, they were Japanese and, and um, you know, so there was a lot even in business, there was a lot of tension in Hawai' ; i, of course, is where they were. And tensions between Issei and Nisei because the Nisei really wanted to be American and, and move forward in that, and um, the Issei were still sort of holding onto that history and it makes all the sense in the world. But of course the Issei were also promoting the fact that you know there, here was the children that born American. And so, so um and there was no, um, you know, doubt of the loyalty that my grandfather actually on that day was supposed to go golfing. And so he' ; s a little bit older. So um and so he was pretty surprised when he comes out of his door and and he sees the puffs of smoke going on um and, and, and that' ; s what I know of that day. My my grandfather was there, well, you know, first helping the FBI " ; supposedly," ; quote unquote. And there are a number of things that people were doing, and he of course, as a business leader, was being asked to round up, and, and, and sort of keep the peace, if you will, amongst one another. No one knew what' ; s going to happen, but no one ever thought they would be deemed enemy aliens, and to lose their rights. And certainly no one thought that during World War II, or after the bombing, that the camps would ever come about, right. And of with 120,000 Japanese Americans in Hawai' ; i, I mean that' ; s Hawai' ; i. I' ; m not talking about the 120,000 that actually made their way to the camps from the West Coast. But, but that was an ominous task for the authorities to say, you know, we better sequester this whole group. So no one was really in fear of that of anything of that nature occurring. Um so, so it was shocking when, uh when finally my grandfather was visited and then taken away. And he was taken away to a detention center in Hawai' ; i and that detention center is called Sand Island in Sand Island. And there was, there were actually a number of um camps were actually were found after the fact. Most of the, most of the detained were, were considered enemies, right. And we' ; re actually again quote quote considered " ; war criminals." ; They' ; re not they were not the typical war relocation effort type you' ; re Japanese American and therefore you have Japanese blood and therefore you should go. Um, so so uh as you, many people as I did well, as I finally learned later, you know, the target was towards those that had come and gone to Japan, to learn the Japanese way, whatever that meant. And also of course religious leaders. And and then some of the business leaders, if not, were, were targeted in Hawai' ; i. And so my grandfather being a business leader and the same time having gone to Japan for some schooling was, was targeted. So he ended up being in Sand Island and then eventually made his way through that whole process and he ended up in Jerome, Arkansas. The family then relocated to be with him. And so my father who was geez, he must have been eight years old or so, along with his older sisters, his four older sisters, I' ; m sorry three older sisters and a younger sister. And they they all went off to Jerome. So you know we' ; re fortunate because unlike the pictures you see and the that captured the realities of that time in uh, especially in the West Coast, where everything was stripped from them. The other belongings and you loot. People losing their farms and their businesses and then selling things at pennies on the dollar. You know we were blessed because my my grandfather was very very important to to Mr. Giannini and Mr. Giannini was very very powerful. And so because of that much of what we had in Hawai' ; i was, was okay, was kept. It' ; s amazing what happens during the war though you know I finally received the FBI files under the Freedom of Information Act and you can see the question and answer and the, the spin that' ; s taken, whenever you received, whenever, you know, the FBI received an answer from my grandfather, um it' ; s shocking. And as an American, as a, as I believe in America, when I read it I wonder, is it a farce, you know, is this truly what' ; s behind the curtain? Or has the time really gone away? Because I know that my family felt very secure before the war broke out. So it' ; s, I don' ; t want to feel that way. But, but as I read through that time, World War II, it' ; s quite amazing. And on top of that, when you have assets, suddenly your friends become your enemies. And, and, you know, you didn' ; t see that in on the West Coast or the ones that moved into the camps or were brought to the concentration camps there, we call them concentration camps. But in Hawai' ; i because Hawai' ; i didn' ; t have those camps. Um now they' ; re trying to figure out who' ; s the enemy, right? And think about it, you' ; re in business and you' ; re in competition with somebody, what a great opportunity, when called on by the FBI, to go ahead and take down your competitor. And I saw an amazing number of letters and, and all the evidence that points to families that actually today are our friends, you know it' ; s just amazing what happens during War. So, so I guess, that' ; s probably a story that most people don' ; t hear, you know, that even within our own community we were taking advantage of each other. It was just a different dynamic in Hawai' ; i as opposed to the West Coast. AT: 16:48 And you said you learned about that through reading old letters, of evidence of that happening? SK: 16:54 Yes, my grandfather kept all of his letters. And his first daughter was his secretary and so captured many of it. Beautiful, beautiful letters, um, English letters. But also in the FBI files, when you did a trial, there are witnesses, okay. And so, so there was literally some research done, right, because they had to decide which one of these potential criminals really belonged, you know, in camp. And so that' ; s how when you read through those files and through the FBI files you see who stepped up you understand what it was about. I learned a lot of business things that my grandfather was doing that never would have known. I don' ; t think my father even knew my father was so touched by it and so emotionally involved even doing his book writing that he had requested the files but um and so, I knew had requested it. So I thought he had read it and passed it on to his writers and whatnot. Well, um we were cleaning out his office and we found the unopened envelope, right, from years past, years before and I opened it up and it just astounded to see, my father would have been crushed, if he had read through that. And just because I know that he called many of these people that were on there, friends, and it' ; s just amazing what things happened. But it' ; s also amazing how we can forgive, right, how we can, how that community, you know, my grandfather I have so much respect as I read that file as to the fact that he never fought against them, you know, certainly publicly, not publicly in business, even though I' ; m sure his struggle was there you know that his considered friends and allies would turn against him in this time of need really, right? You know, when you' ; re being hauled away. So um it' ; s remarkable. AT: 19:05 You had mentioned something that when you' ; re talking about getting the FBI files on your grandfather, the actual interrogation, is that right? SK: 19:15 Yes. AT: 19:17 And I' ; m not going to get this right that you' ; re mentioning, how in reading that over, um you, it sounded like you had your own doubts about just kind of the U.S. Can you talk a little bit more about that, and maybe what you' ; re actually seeing in those files, that made you feel that way? SK: 19:42 Well, if you' ; ve already been. Well, I guess it' ; s a simple way of. That' ; s a great question. I I I probably never ever articulated what I just said to you that you captured. And I suppose, I suppose it' ; s like you watch or you talk to somebody and they' ; re being really nice to you and you think the world of them. And yet behind it they' ; re, they' ; re actually steering you towards you know a very bad place. And maybe that' ; s called prison whatever you want to call what some call internment camps and others consider concentration and I think if you really look at the true definition it' ; s concentration camp is certainly not a death camp. Like I don' ; t want to even go there, you know. But when you look at the questions and answers it' ; s really the questions and the follow up questions to the questions or the follow comment to the question that whatever you say to me I will turn it around so that it works for me, right? So I' ; m really directing you and driving you to what I want you to have met in whatever words you use to say whatever you say, so that you are absolutely validated you' ; re validating my assumption of your guilt, right? Because I' ; ve already decided you' ; re guilty. This is just a process to ensure that I have file that proves it. And I' ; m gonna make sure that it' ; s there. And so it' ; s pretty interesting because, you know, you see where the censorship was. And so initially I guess however they did it, they censored certain names and and bits and pieces so you have these black splotches everywhere, right? And that was done in between, right, the time of the interview throughout incarceration, after incarceration, integration back into community, right? And, and of course, ultimately to the Freedom of Information Act. I don' ; t, there' ; s the other question in my head, when did these blackouts occur, you know? How recent were they? How long ago were they? How purposeful were they? You know, clearly they were purposeful, right? I can' ; t imagine they doing it to 120,000 people. But you know when you have fear driving things and, and a decision made that everyone is guilty, you know, we, we become sort of processed right? And and I that' ; s where my fear is that if I if government decides that a people are guilty, right, then will we do it again? Right? Will, are we, going to direct the the answers, or the questions towards the answers that we need to hear to justify our files, to justify our actions, right? That are represented within those files. And that' ; s the part that makes me fearful, because I think anyone can do that. You know, I watch it in my own business, you know businesses. You know as people sort of, um you know, take people down a path that they want, they need them to go in order to get to wherever they want to get to. That' ; s really what I' ; m fearful of. AT: 23:19 Um I want to come back for that, but first tell me a little bit about what happened after camp? SK: 23:31 After camp, yeah. So, so yeah I' ; ve still, actually I' ; m still really learning about that. It' ; s a, that' ; s a great question. I know my grandfather, see my grandfather was older. So he' ; s too old to fight, right. So he didn' ; t, he wasn' ; t part of the of the 442nd or the MIS or any of that. And he was, you know my my father was too young to fight. So my grandfathers to old, my father' ; s too young. My grandfather does go back to work with the Relocation Authority, out of Des Moines. And so, so not out of Chicago, not, you know, but out of Des Moines. And, and, and um that' ; s also remarkable when, when I consider the story that I really know really well. We I know that they go to Des Moines and I know ultimately that he goes back to Hawai' ; i, because they have a huge operation for, for what' ; s now known as Transamerica. And so so he does go back. But, but not right away. So my father' ; s enrolled in school and you know he' ; s walking, he' ; s a, he' ; s a, he' ; s a young kid, now he' ; s probably about 9, 10, 11, 12 years old and one day, he' ; s coming back from school, a big group of kids come and harass him all the way home. And that happens several days. And he' ; s expecting again on the next week and another big group of guys come running down, and it' ; s the Boy Scouts and a bunch of Boy Scout troop walks him home and does that every day for him. So you can imagine the effects that that love you know that protection meant to a person like my father, right, who was afraid because, you know, everyone is calling him out, he' ; s a young kid. He doesn' ; t know why, right? You know, and he just doesn' ; t look the same as them, right? And that really affected him. My father actually became the first Japanese American to earn the Silver Buffalo which is the highest award given to a civilian, even to a person in from the Boy Scouts in the same year that President Clinton was awarded his. And you know, I' ; m very proud of that. But that just shows you how affected, deeply affected, appreciable, appreciate, how much he appreciated, for his life, right? And for hope that, that there are people that truly understand that we really are one. And so, so probably of all the things that come out of the camps and in that, in that, you know, transition back into, reintegration, back into into life was some of the really I mean more pointed, you know, things that happened and recollections. But we don' ; t have, you know, the family was quiet and the family gets back into the community. And my my father' ; s siblings all sisters, marry very well. The top attorney' ; s firm, at the top this and top. It' ; s amazing how after World War II in this state of Hawai' ; i, what became the state of Hawai' ; i, how amazingly, how can I say? Focused the Japanese community was to reestablish in Hawai' ; i and then make a difference, to be leaders in community and business, right, in politics. And so you can go back to the Senator Inouye, Sparky Matsunaga, you know, as a politicians, that that rose. You can look at the business owners that are out there the banks that arose because of that time like Central Pacific Bank was built because of the Nisei Veterans. And so the whole reality of that world, you know, was, was changing. Becoming, maybe becoming much stronger because of that, that whole time. So, yeah. AT: 27:57 I want to be sure to ask you about, your different positions with Go For Broke and JANM. And if you could just talk a little bit. SK: 28:05 Thank you. AT: 28:05 About how you got involved and you know, and where that desire to get involved came from? SK: 28:07 So today, I have the great honor and privilege to be on two amazing, actually three amazing national organizations within the community. And there' ; s a, there' ; s a major reason for each one. So let me start with Japanese American National Museum. Um I didn' ; t know about the camps. Here we just talked about it and I' ; m still learning every day. And I had to learn because I, I witnessed a presentation to the State of Hawai' ; i, the leadership in the state of Hawai' ; i. And to go to the school and I went to I went to a very expensive private school. My classmate became the president of the United States. And I never heard the story. My family was incarcerated, one of only 800 of 120,000, only 800 in Hawai' ; i, from Hawai' ; i. And I never heard about it. I played in the backyard and so played in the backyard and with G.I. Joe, and and was yelling Go for Broke didn' ; t even know where that came from you know and to learn at a function about my own parents' ; history was not only embarrassing but it was shocking, that it was shocking to the core because here I was true blue America, American. I truly, truly believe in the tapestry that all of the country' ; s representative make for this amazing filtered right through all the take out the bad bring in the good and that' ; s how I felt, America was all about. And so to learn that way, just told me that, the stories needed to be told. They had to be in schools, they have to be beyond our insulated family and our communities. And because you know because of all the things that you know you' ; ve heard, right? And Go For Broke and I have the honor today to serve on that board as well. JANM I' ; m a trustee and at Go For Broke today, I serve as a chair. I was never going to be a part of that organization, but it was because of a beer party that I went to that I was mesmerized by what it all meant. That here was the most highly decorated unit in military history coming out of the camps, coming from bombed Hawai' ; i. And to go on and fight for the country that put them behind barbed wire, put my family behind barbed wire. That again that I didn' ; t know that, right? That I didn' ; t realize that the people around me were heroes. Heroes not only to myself but to the United States because of what they represented because of what they did because what they believed in. And again, I not knowing this amazing story had to again get beyond our community. And why I didn' ; t want to initially be a part of that was I had nobody that went to War. And these were clubs. It was a club that was just honoring the many who served. And, and, and, and I told the leadership at the time, you know, I' ; d love to come on the board if it goes national and it' ; s education. If it' ; s nationally focused on education to provide that, based upon the stories, the voices of those that actually served that I could actually experience, so that they might touch the values, our values, to the core. Really, let us question ourselves because of the experiences they had, that that was worth being a part of. And, and so Go For Broke became a coveted place to be for me when they said Stephen we' ; re going national, and we' ; re going because of you, so get on this board. And, and then the third one is a U.S. Japan Council. And, you know, Irene Hirano Inouye, is the one that leads that organization even to this day. She' ; s also the founding executive of the Japanese American National Museum. And why is that such an important organization to me, is because, it' ; s about connecting people to people. And Japanese Americans first to be identified and collected of note across around the country. And then of course to connect with country of our ancestral home. You see, that was a travesty of that time. When War broke out, families had to decide whether they were going to stay here or go back home, right? And, and it disconnected us. When we got out of the camps, the Japanese Americans were fighting to be American, they did not want to be considered Japanese. They were told to go an integrated, integrate and they did. Right. And so we didn' ; t know that so-and-so was achieving certain things in this place or that place. And and we didn' ; t stay connected with the Japanese because the Japanese were occupied by America, and the Japanese wanted to be American. And they started to tie in with with America beyon, beyond the Japanese Americans the ones that left before them you know? And so there' ; s this huge disconnect that took place. And so um U.S. Japan Council becomes extremely important because finally, finally we' ; re holding hands again. We' ; re finally learning about each other, to understand and appreciate our differences. Right? And and so that we can engage like every other community represented here in the United States. And that' ; s just a travesty of war. And so so I am so very blessed to be on that path to help bring that understanding and appreciation. And what better time than now, right? Where we have this real true globalization taking place. The realization that where we come from and where we go to, it' ; s so much easier to do and yet we stand on shoulders where we step towards, right? There' ; s footprints left behind, but absolutely there are footprints before us. And so so I think it' ; s incumbent upon people upon people like myself who can' ; t be a part of this driving force to bring it beyond the whispers of our own homes and to share it. So that might learn and do better in the future make better decisions. That' ; s really, really important. AT: 35:01 In your opinion, what are, what are some of the lessons that need to be taken from, um, the experiences of World War II? And what kind of responsibilities or obligations to Japanese Americans, have toward that history? SK: 35:25 Yeah, I think some of us, I think all of us have a different sort of viewpoint. You can imagine it' ; s not about alienating anybody um that' ; s unintelligent. You know we don' ; t we don' ; t uh retaliate with anger because of something that happened to us. And yet it' ; s because things happen to us, we have we do have an obligation of responsibility, I suppose you could say, to share those stories. Because the decisions we make have rippling effects that go beyond the immediate. And we really have to think about who we want to be as as a country, who want who we want to be as individuals. What kind of people we should be. And by looking at the way that the Japanese Americans responded during their, at that time, and to hear the individual stories, especially from their own voices I think is the greatest way to be able to to hear unencumbered by the voices of others today the opinions of others to hear what they went through, because they went through it. To hear how they dealt with it. And to and to ask ourselves, you know, would I do it this way? And should I do it that way? And it doesn' ; t matter whether I think you' ; re a politician or you' ; re a victim, right? A targeted community, or someone that' ; s just judgmental, you know. We really need to know, and, and we really need, I mean, people really need to know that when we, in the face of fear, you know, we really need to be careful as to getting ahead of ourselves perhaps because a travesty ripples forever, so but. You know you ask that question, it' ; s a, it' ; s a, it' ; s a tough one right? Because social injustice is such a huge part of what I think democracy is supposed to be fighting against. And to be able to appreciate our differences is sometimes a very difficult thing. And yet of all the places in the world America is a place that should celebrate it and share the beauty of it and not become what we despise because of our feelings, right? It' ; s tougher sometimes to to face things like bigotry and hate. But I think if you can give bigotry and hate the true outcomes of what that can lead to and they, and people learn from that. And that' ; s a big thing. That' ; s a great thing. And so I' ; m very hopeful that as you ask what the community should do that the community will do and I' ; m so happy that they are doing. You know, if responding to, to what happened after 9/11 you know responding to some of the commentary that' ; s coming out because of the quote unquote " ; nationalism" ; that takes place. And but those voices are important too. And so I think that the most important part is to be able to share that experience because we' ; ve had it. AT: 39:02 Well, thank you so much ?for coming in and seeing the show, and speaking with me here. Before we completely wrap up is there anything else you' ; d like to add, or that I might have missed? SK: 39:14 Yeah. Yeah, I want to add one other thing and I missed, I missed two things and I want to share one very, very important one. And that is I said I' ; m proud to be part of three national organizations. And I guess the question the national organizations have to ask themselves is: What does it mean to be national? And what I really believe is that it' ; s about being local and that the regional regions and the locations around the country have so many varied experiences. What happens in Hawai' ; i and what happened in Hawai' ; i is very different from from the West Coast, which is very different from here in Chicago, right? I mean Hawai' ; i was bombed, they were angry. You know, they wanted to fight, you have everything that is taken away from you. In California on the West Coast you know it' ; s a very different dynamic. You' ; re herded like cattle behind barbed wire you know? In Hawai' ; i you' ; re fighting to try to be a part of the war you know. And everything else in between. And so what you' ; re doing here at Alphawood, right? By sharing the story and bringing in your part of the story, right, is I think phenomenal. And us as an organization, us, when I say us, the boards that I serve on the organizations that I serve I really need to be a part of this this effort and to make sure that we are contributing to the extent that we can. And I know there' ; s time frames and I know there' ; s all those kinds of things but it' ; s really truly an admonition I think, to myself. Talking about responsibility that I would have to learn from somebody from an industry organization that isn' ; t a book club who is part of another organization that worked with your leadership to learn about what' ; s happening right here in Chicago on the very community, right, that and stories, a set of stories that were supposedly capturing on a national basis. So god bless Densho, Tom Ikeda at Densho, because he can do that because of the way his venue works and he' ; s fabulous. But um I, I hope that you have more just con, confidence in all of us because we should be sharing that voice. And I' ; m really anxious to to do more, with organizations like Alphawood, because I think this is a great forum I' ; m looking at the people walking in your doors and I' ; m looking at the people looking at the photos and I' ; m looking at the people that' ; s engaging with you wanting to share with you more. And I' ; m reminded of what happened the first we first started the efforts in Southern California as an example, and how the same thing sort of happened it' ; s very different, you know the way it' ; s been captured today. But it' ; s people like yourselves that' ; s going to take it beyond the borders beyond the borders of our own again communities that have kept this silence, right? And, and um it' ; s, it' ; s really an amazing, I think um if you really look at it, the journey of the Japanese Americans captured in three generations, right? The fight for immigration and citizenship to be challenged and to lose it, right? To come back and be the most celebrated and decorated, is, is just phenomenal. A phenomenal, I think, reflection of what the beauty and travesty of democracy can, can be. And, and so I really I just honor what I' ; ve seen today here at Alphawood, I need to say, that' ; s the second part I want to say. And so god bless all of you then. It' ; s good stuff. AT: 43:08 Thank you so much. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KagawaStephen20171101.xml KagawaStephen20171101.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kagawa, Stephen (11/1/2017)
Description
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Stephen Kagawa is a fourth generation (Yonsei) Japanese American born and raised in Hawaii. In this interview, he shares what he has learned about his family's roots in Japan and immigration to Hawaii, and describes his paternal grandfather's interactions with the FBI and eventual detention at Sand Island after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He continues with his grandfather's transfer to Jerome, Arkansas, where his wife and children joined him. He describes his father's experiences as a child in Des Moines, Iowa where the family lived briefly before returning to Hawaii. In explaining his motivations for serving on the boards of the Japanese American National Museum, Go For Broke, and the U.S. Japan Council, he reveals that he knew none of his own family's incarceration history until adulthood and expresses his commitment to ensuring that this history is more widely known.
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2017-11-01
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kaihatsu, Jane
Interview Keyword
Santa Anita
Heart Mountain
Tanforan
Gila River
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Sansei
Jefferson Park
Park Ridge
Edgewater Beach Hotel
Japanese Cinema
Tri-C
Christ Church of Chicago
Drum and Bugle Corps
Buddhist Temple of Chicago
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
Toguri Mercantile
Star Market
Japanese American Citizens League
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/27/2017 Kaihatsu, Jane (10/27/2017) 1:16:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Santa Anita Heart Mountain Tanforan Gila River 442nd Regimental Combat Team Sansei Jefferson Park Park Ridge Edgewater Beach Hotel Japanese Cinema Tri-C Christ Church of Chicago Drum and Bugle Corps Buddhist Temple of Chicago Chicago Nisei Athletic Association Toguri Mercantile Star Market Japanese American Citizens League Kaihatsu, Jane Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307611133 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307611133?h=330b9d7f32" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Jane Kaihatsu is a third generation Japanese American (Sansei), born and raised in the Chicago area. In this interview she shares what she knows of the immigration and incarceration experiences of her mother's and father's families and describes her own experiences growing up first in Chicago and then in the suburb of Park Ridge. Jane details the many community events and organizations she and her siblings participated in and shares memories of her father's efforts to screen Japanese movies for a Chicago audience. She describes the challenges of growing up in Park Ridge where there were few other Japanese Americans, and the feeling of being an outsider in the Japanese American community because of her suburban upbringing. She also recalls the experience of being the first sansei, first woman, and youngest person to serve as president of the Chicago chapter of the Japanese American Citizens League. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 Can you please just state your full name? Jane Kaihatsu: 00:00:02 Yes, my name is Jane Beth Kaihatsu. AT: 00:00:06 And then where and when were you born? JK: 00:00:09 I was born on June 2nd, 1957 at Chicago' ; s Wesley Memorial Hospital on the North Side and unfortunately it was torn down and part of the greater Northwestern University hospital campus. AT: 00:00:24 Okay, so that' ; s North Shore? JK: 00:00:28 Um, it' ; s on the North, near North Side of Chicago. AT: 00:00:30 Okay. And, um, and where did you grow up? JK: 00:00:34 Well, uh, initially I, I understand, um, when I was born, my parents were living in the Old Town area near North Avenue in North Park Avenue, which is just, um, uh, west of Wells Street. And then, uh, we moved to, um, when I guess I was about two years old to the far Northwest side of Chicago, an area called Jefferson Park. And I lived at 5131 West Ainslie. And we lived, um, in Jefferson Park. Um, my older brother Donald and then I had um anoth, another brother, Eddie, another sister, Nancy and another sister. And so there' ; s five of us all together, until 1965, until I was eight years old. So I went to Chicago Public Schools in Jefferson Park, will be in school from kindergarten until second grade. AT: 00:01:27 And where are you in the birth order? JK: 00:01:29 I' ; m the second oldest. I' ; m the oldest daughter. AT: 00:01:33 Um, and so like I mentioned, um, I' ; d love to hear a little bit more about your, your family' ; s story and background. And how your parents ended up in Chicago. So, um, can you just start by telling me what you know of, where your parents are from and kind of how they ended up here. JK: 00:01:56 Okay. Um, let' ; s see. Um, I' ; ll start with my father' ; s family. The Kaihatsu side. My father is Omar Kaihatsu and he' ; s also one of five children. He' ; s the middle child and his parents, um, are um Issei who came from Japan. My grandfather, Masajiro Kaihatsu, came from Japan, um, in 1905 and 1906 to San Francisco. And then settled in Los Angeles. And, um, his wife, my grandmother Kuwa Kaihatsu came in 1919 and she, uh, was a picture bride, as they, they called them. But actually, uh, Masajiro Kaihatsu had an unusual occupation. He worked in silent films as a silent film actor and Kuwa had seen him in Japanese movie magazines back in Nagoya where she was from. Um, Masajiro is from the Hyogoken area of a city called Akashi. But anyway, the story goes, she wrote him fan letters. Uh, by this time he had been in the U.S. about 15 years and needed to be married. So they exchanged letters and he brought her over as his bride to Hollywood, where they were living. And uh, they were very unusual people. She was sent to English lessons. She was taught Western cooking and Western sewing. And so my dad and his siblings were raised not in a completely traditional Japanese manner in Hollywood. And, um, so they lived there, uh, until the war. Um, Masajiro unfortunately died in 19, uh, 38 of tuberculosis and my grandmother and family really struggled. And I understand that then she went back to Japan to sell some land in, what is now Tokyo area, and I always think about, boy, if they hadn' ; t sold that land, our family would be quite different. But in any case, the Kaihatsu' ; s were ah evacuated at first to Santa Anita Assembly Center. And then they ended up at Heart Mountain, um, Relocation Center. My father, Omar was, uh, one of the first to leave. Uh, he was actually about 15, 16 years old at the time of evacuation, internment. And, um, being a young man, very restless, he was anxious to get out. So I understand he worked, uh, as a farm laborer picking vegetables for a short time, but eventually made his way to Chicago, probably about 1943 and stayed at the Lawson Y. And it was in Chicago where the selective service caught up to him and he was drafted into the segregated unit, the 442nd, um, RCT where he served in France and Italy. And then, um, in the meantime, while the other Kaihatsu' ; s were in Heart Mountain, the other, the next person to leave was my Aunt Martha and she was the oldest. She had actually gotten everybody to camp, um, you know, got rid of the house, the possessions, and she found a job in Chicago and got an apartment in Hyde Park. And then as the camps closed, uh, she brought her mother and the two youngest brothers from Heart Mountain to Chicago. Another one of Omar' ; s older brothers was in the military intelligence service, the MIS. And when the war ended, my Uncle Art from the MIS, and then Omar from the 442, ended up coming back to Chicago where Martha had established the family and she was working in, in, at the Chicago Sun at that time, she had been a journalist at the Rafu Shimpo in Los Angeles. And as soon as she saw the family was settled, she decided to move on to New York where she had a career in advertising and Omar and his mother and the rest of the family stayed here. Um, now my mother' ; s family AT: 00:06:09 Can I ask a question? JK: 00:06:09 Oh, oh, sure. Of course. AT: 00:06:13 So, uh, your dad is serving and then do you know about what year he actually came to Chicago? JK: 00:06:20 Um, 1945 or 46, I guess. Yeah. AT: 00:06:26 And then do you, do you know, um, like the ages of his eldest? Was Margaret the eldest? JK: 00:06:38 Yes, mhm. AT: 00:06:39 Do you know about how old she was at the time of the war? JK: 00:06:43 Um, let me see. She was born in 1920s, so she was 22, years old. AT: 00:06:49 And do you know, um, you said that she kind of, um, was charged with taking care of organizing the family. Um, was there a particular reason for that? JK: 00:07:02 Well, I think, AT: 00:07:05 With their father gone? JK: 00:07:05 Yes, I think when, uh, their, their father, he was ill for two years. So I, I think essentially, he was not really involved with the family since 1935. So she was like, uh, 15, 15, um, I guess kids grew up a lot quicker in that age. And I know she had worked as a domestic in Beverly Hills, um, for some wealthy families there. And the other brother Arthur was at UCLA, he was in college and I think, um, the family really wanted him to succeed. So that' ; s a, that' ; s an interesting question, why it was Martha and not Arthur that was put in charge, but Martha had already been out working I think. And she' ; s a very strong willed person, probably even back then. And um, just kind of took charge. AT: 00:08:00 Um, thank you, yeah. I just wanted to clear that up before. JK: 00:08:06 Of course. Uhuh. AT: 00:08:06 So your, your mother' ; s family? JK: 00:08:08 Yes, my mother is from the San Francisco Bay Area. She' ; s from a town called Alameda, which is across the Bay, near Oakland. And her parents, Jiro Yano is her father, and he came to the United States probably about the same time as my Masajiro did in 1906. Uh, Jiro had been in the Japanese Navy during the Russo-Japanese war as a sailor. Um, he was kind of a, I don' ; t want to say ne' ; er-do-well cause it' ; s a little bit too strong. But in the prefecture Fukuoka where he' ; s from, he came from a well to do family. They had um, they owned land and, and people farmed the land for them. So he didn' ; t really have much to do. And so he joined the Navy. Uh, he was actually in battle during the Russo-Japanese War. And then after the war was over, he joined the British Merchant Marines and sailed around the world. And when they came to San Francisco and the ship docked up, uh, I was told that he tested the tides and I think about it, they' ; re supposedly shark infested waters, but somehow he figured that out and he jumped ship and swam to shore. And that' ; s how he got to San Francisco and met up with some friends and then eventually, um, was working in, in, uh, as a domestic, I understand, and then, um, wanted to get married and wrote back to his village and Fukuoka. So my grandmother was from the same, uh, town or in the same area as he was versus the Kaihatsu' ; s were from completely different areas. And my grandmother was one of um seven girls, I believe. And she was part samurai. She had, uh, her own servant and, but she was chosen to go to America and marry this guy. And it did not go over very well. And for the rest of her life, she vowed she would never return to Japan because she felt so betrayed. But nonetheless, she did go over and marry him. And then they had three children, three daughters. And my mother, Rose is the youngest and the um family ran a grocers in Berkeley for awhile. Um, my grandfather Jiro also worked as a cook and the chef. And so they' ; re, I guess involved with food. And then at the time of the Evacuation, they had a, um, grocery store in Berkeley, which they had to unload, but they decided that to try and evade the evacuation, they went to the Sacramento Area. And, uh, of course that doesn' ; t work because the Exclusion Zone became the entire state of California. So my mother always told me that as she hated that aspect of, or that decision that her parents made because it meant that she was not evacuated with her friends and other people that she knew well from the Buddhist Temple, she was evacuated with strangers and she was very shy person. But they, so they ended up um, going to Tanforan Assembly Center and then she went to Gila River, Arizona, Assembly Center. And you know, made, made friends there. I' ; m not sure come to think of where the Alameda people did end up. I think they might' ; ve ended up at Topaz from the Bay Area, but in any case, she went to Gila River. And in her case, uh, the first one to leave camp was her middle sister, Yuri, who got a job in Chicago in, uh, Winnetka, actually for a wealthy family working as a domestic. And when Yuri had saved enough money to get her own apartment on the North Side in Uptown, she sent for my mother and her parents and in, an already married elder sister who had two children, actually two of my cousins were born in camp. And they all came to Chicago, probably around 1945 and lived in Uptown. And my mother was in her senior year of high school and she belongs the fact that she couldn' ; t finish, um, high school in camp. She came to Sun High School on the North Side, again with complete strangers. Everybody knew each other by the time they' ; re seniors. And so she always felt very alone. But she graduated. And then, uh, she and my dad met at a party and I can' ; t recall right now whose party it was, but my dad took the L from the South Side up to the North Side. So it' ; s, um, now the red line they call it. At that time it was the Dan Ryan and the Howard L, to visit her. And they were married in 1948. Um, initially they lived, um, at that address where I was born in North Park Avenue and North Avenue. And um, should mention it was a housing project at the time. It was public, public housing and there were other displaced persons from Europe. They called them DP refugees from Europe. And they were also African Americans. So it was a very interesting mixed area for my older brother to grow up in. I think he lived there until he was about seven or eight years old. AT: 00:13:26 And you said you were about two years old? JK: 00:13:28 Right when I moved. I, so I don' ; t have any memory of North Park, you know, I just remember Jefferson Park. AT: 00:13:36 Um, thank you. That' ; s quite a comprehensive family history. Um, I wanted, I want to ask you, so you, you clearly have a lot of the details of, um, your family' ; s experiences and trajectory, um, before and during the war, and after the war. Um, would, what is that process been like in learning your family' ; s story? Is that coming, is that information coming from your parents themselves or? JK: 00:14:19 Yes, I, I, from my mother, I would say mostly. And then the Kaihatsu side, I probably learned most of it from my Aunt Martha. So the two women that told us stories. Um, my mother has been really important in terms of making sure that we understood Japanese culture. I believe compared to my father, she had a more traditional Japanese upbringing or her parents are more traditional that way. She went to Japanese school. Um, when she was a, I know, think that my father in his family ever did go to Japanese school. I know they wanted just to be really American and, and Western as possible. So from my earliest memories, um, I, I don' ; t think it was, although I might have felt shame about being Japanese, it was not something that my parents felt. I think it was something that I felt shame about being Japanese in reaction to how others were, were treating me. And in particular, um, I actually, I stopped at Jefferson Park, um, but I lived there until 1965 until I was eight years old. And then we moved to Park Ridge, which is far North or Northwest suburbs, that' ; s all white. I do remember my mom saying that, um, uh, should we really move there? Because Park Ridge was not exactly a welcoming place where minorities, Ernie Banks, the famous baseball player, tried to, uh, buy a house in Park Ridge and was turned down. There were no African Americans, there were no Jews, in Park Ridge. So it was kind of a bold move on my parents' ; part to move there. But I don' ; t recall that many racial incidents. I know my brother, my older brother did. He had was going to Lane Tech until we moved and then he went to Main South, uh, High School in Park Ridge. Hillary Clinton was there, at the time, it was her senior year. And he remembers her, but he did experienced some racial incidents, especially in, I could probably say this for a lot of us Sansei' ; s growing up in the 60s and 70s, you know, no one liked going to school on December 7th. It was an anniversary date that, uh, uh, we all dreaded. And I know I certainly dreaded, I know my older brother dreaded too. I think some, um, kid tried to urinate on him or something. Or snowballs, I know were routinely thrown at us, at me, I know, on December 7th. AT: 00:17:03 Oh, well I want to, okay. That' ; s something I definitely want to come back to. Um, but, uh, first I want to hear a little bit more about, um, kind of how, um, the communication with you and your mother in theory is about, was, was she open and, and your father too, did you grow up knowing about their experiences during the war or knowing that they went to camper? How was that information kind of passed on to you as far as you remembered? JK: 00:17:46 Okay, I think, when I first learned about what the Interment camps were, it was a junior high school, I think seventh grade. But up until that point, all the time growing up, we would hear about other Nisei friends is, I know so-and-so from camp or so and so and I were in the same camp, so-and-so, we' ; re in the, you know, they were in that camp and we were in this camp. And the entire time I, I think, I thought it was a summer camp, you know, was something fun or enjoyable because when they saw each other from camp or talked about camp, they didn' ; t have misery or unhappiness or pain in their face. And in middle school, it might' ; ve come up in the history book or something like that. And I said, look at this camp the Japanese Americans were in. And I think then my mother said that we were in that camp too. And I said, you were I said, Oh really? And so she tried to explain it. And then about that time in the late 60s, early 70s, there was a spate of books coming out, America' ; s Concentration Camp. Then the author escapes me now. Then Bill Hosokawa wrote this book when I was in high school, and Nisei the Quiet Americans. Um, there was the Black Power Movement, which in the West Coast translated into the Yellow Power Movement. So our cousins in California were becoming more actively involved about identity issues and things like that. So I think by that point, at least as far as my mom was concerned, it was very easy to talk about. And I asked a lot of questions too. I eventually became a history major in college. So I was always very interested in history and current events anyway. AT: 00:19:32 And uh, so your, your mom is on, like, she was pretty open talking about those experiences? JK: 00:19:39 Mhm. AT: 00:19:39 Um, what are some, some, are there any memories or stories of either hers or your father' ; s that kind of stick out to you or you know, when you think about, um, Kaihatsu, like your, uh um, I guess collective camp experiences. Are there any like? JK: 00:20:02 Well, certainly. Things that, um, I' ; ve been told, um, by some people, but my mom told a lot of these stories too. Uh, Omar Kaihatsu was notorious. He was larger than life and uh, apparently and the long train ride to Heart Mountain, um, where the shades were drawn and it was very uncomfortable. Uh, there was an Issei man that kept picking on him for some reason in, in what manner, I' ; m not sure. But apparently when they got to fart, Heart Mountain, Omar got in a fight with this Issei man and punched him out. And this man fell and hit his head on a rock. And, uh, got Omar arrested for attempted murder. So they had to hire an attorney. Um, um, Issei man by the name of Mr. Fuji, who I believe resettled in Chicago too. But other people who I' ; ve met, like when I used to live in, in San Francisco and, or visit California and even, and even in Japan, I met a man that knew my dad in camp. And they used to call Omar the gangster. When he walk in the dining hall with his gang, he kicked open the door. Um, just things like that. He ended up in the Army boxing and, um, was just an, and then when he got out of the Army too and came to the Chicago before he was drafted, he was a, um, boxer at the Golden Gloves Gym and boxed in the Catholic Youth League. And we found, I found a little article where he actually won a, um, an award. We had, have the little medal, and he was written up in the Tribune about it. So that' ; s, um, Omar Kahaitsu' ; s reputation in camp. Uh, he didn' ; t really talk about any of the times there except it was boring. Uh, my Aunt Martha spoke a little bit more. She just said she remembers Congressman Norman Mineta who became Secretary Norman Mineta at Heart Mountain is a little boy and they would call him little Normy running around all over the place. Um, as far as the Kahaitsu' ; s his life in camp, I mean, I have pictures of my Uncle Gordon who was the Omar' ; s youngest brother. He was a Boy Scout. And he had learned to play the bugle and he actually loved jazz music and, and that followed him the rest of his life. Oh, my mom, Rose, she was in middle school when she was at Gila River and she thought it was, it was really hot. Uh, there, there was a lot of sand. They did try and see if they could fry an egg on the board. But, um, she doesn' ; t have any unpleasant memories except for it being very hard to make friends. But she did make some friends and she' ; s still talks about some friends from Gila River even today. Uh, coming to Chicago, oh, neither one of them really talked about what that experience was. And when I think about it now, out of all the relatives I had, you know, no one ever talked about what it was like, that transition, they just somehow they were in Chicago. Ah my father, I know, after the service, um, found some interesting artifacts in his drawer. He came home from Italy via Egypt via, so he was in Cairo, then he went to Sao Paulo, Brazil and then landed in New York and then went to Chicago via that way. And that was kind of interesting. He said if it weren' ; t for the Army, he would' ; ve never seen the rest of the world at that young age. Um, so Omar was not really in camp very long. Um, I him, why didn' ; t you resist, once, like the No-No Boys said and he said, because I didn' ; t want to go to prison. I said, okay, that' ; s a good answer. And my mother, um, yeah, again, she just, as a young teenager, she just, and a female, I guess just did what she was told and, and really didn' ; t have to worry about anything. That was her older siblings concerns. AT: 00:24:11 Well, JK: 00:24:11 Oh, I, there is one story I do remember about my grandmother, which is kind of interesting. Um, my grandmother when she came to Chicago, ended up working as a maid at the Edgewater Beach Hotel cleaning and housekeeping. And this is a person that I mentioned was part Samurai, had had a servant, didn' ; t want to be in the U.S. in the first place, right? And now is ended up working as hotel maid. Well, at one point during the early 1950s, I think just after my brother was born in 51' ; , um, she had a psychotic episode. Where, um, she was brandishing a knife and she had locked my grandfather, uh, I believe he was also working in the Edgewater Beach Hotel in the kitchen as a chef. Um, she locked him out of the apartment and then finally, um, they had to, they called the doctor and in those days, men in white coats came to take you away, which was a stereotype. And she had to be taken away in a straight jacket. And she was hospitalized in inpatient psychiatric for by the week. And my mom said that she was very quiet when she saw the men in the white coats. Um, my mom felt that she felt profound, embarrassment, my grandmother. So she became very docile at that point. And after which she was fine. The doctor felt that she was just tired, tired from the war, tired from the Evacuation, the camp, to moving the Chicago, the harsh winter, working as a maid in the hotel and she just collapsed. And ever since then she' ; s never, you know, had any incidents. But I kinda think, you know, looking back of it, it' ; s a wonder that more people didn' ; t really, you know, crack up. When you think about it. AT: 00:26:10 I think, I would argue that a lot of people have. But you know, It' ; s just not really talked about. JK: 00:26:17 Right. I do remember my mom saying that someone did. I said, when she told me that story about her grandma, her mother having a psychotic episode, I said, um, were there anything else she said? One man hung himself in Lincoln Park. And I don' ; t know if it was an Issei or Nisei, but there was that notorious incident. But then she said, but everybody else was in the same situation. Everybody that we knew, you didn' ; t have time to go crazy, you know, you just had to get back on your feet and keep going. AT: 00:26:53 Are there in, in your own life, in your own experiences, has there been any, um, have you seen any like impacts of the Incarceration or Resettlement kind of, shape your own experiences in a way? Or any kind of legacies from these experiences play out in your own life? JK: 00:27:23 Well, I think, um, being a Kaihatsu and knowing Omar' ; s ah reputation. On one half of me I think, and then growing up in Park Ridge on top of that, far, far from the community, we did not see the Japanese community everyday, but my mother made sure that we went to a Japanese Christian Church. And she herself was raised Buddhist, but she maintained ties with both Buddhist Temples of the North Side and, and the Midwest Buddhist Temple. Um, so in on sense we, my brothers and sisters and I were not raised, uh, in a traditional Nikkei, now, if you can call it, manner. We were more outspoken. We were around, uh, Caucasians all day long. So, you know, that' ; s how I think our, our personalities were formed. But yeah, and the other side, I think there is a, a shred of legacy in that we did not pursue, um, we were not out there too much. We were out, we were more perhaps outspoken or even aggressive than other Japanese Americans, but not to the extent of non-Japanese Americans of Caucasians, for example. I always felt more reticent, um, they had to measure up. And then another, uh, impart to the family, which is more Japanese, I don' ; t think it was, has anything to do with the internment, but the concept of shame and not embarrassing your family. And so, we' ; re, I know, I felt very conscious of my actions. I was not going to do anything to cause, uh, unwanted attention to anything I did. So I didn' ; t stand out. But, um, but I wasn' ; t a failure, either. So. AT: 00:29:10 Um, but, and I, I think now I' ; ve kind of want to connect that to your experiences growing up in, in Chicago. Um, so, um, so at first your, your parents were in Old Town Area and then moved to Jefferson Park. And you said in 65' ; is when you moved to Park Ridge? Um, so that you would have been a little bit less than ten years old. Can you tell me about um, your, probably your first memories in the Jefferson Park area? JK: 00:30:03 Yes, um, Jefferson Park, at that time, was, um, not very city, like when you think about it, that is, for example, in this area of Lincoln Park where it' ; s very dense. It was, it was more like a suburb. Now when I go there today, I think, wow, the houses are close together except for our house because we had a side yards. So we didn' ; t have people really right next to us except on one side. And it was a very happy time for me because we could walk anywhere. Um, I remember when the expressway, the Kennedy Expressway was built and we watched it being built and being inaugurated and the school was nearby. We could walk to school and there' ; s a school store that we could go to and buy candy. Um, my brother went to cub scouts, at the nearby by Church and, uh, there' ; s was a firehouse I know we used to visit with a real Dalmatian dog. My younger sister Nancy used to play with the dog, so it was very pleasant. Now when I grew up later I found out that, um, uh, it was a very, uh, racially segregated area. There' ; s a lot of, uh, whites to, didn' ; t take kindly to African American' ; s. And my mom said there was a Black police officer, young man who tried to rent the apartment cause he was stationed at the Jefferson Park station and he was nearly run out. He couldn' ; t. And I, I wanna to say there was a anti-Martin Luther King demonstration but, I can' ; t be sure completely. But anyway, there' ; s a lot of unpleasantness going on and racial hostility. But I don' ; t recall feeling any of it. And again, my older brother may have had a different story. AT: 00:31:51 Were there other, um, Japanese American families or even Asian? JK: 00:31:55 Yeah, actually there was, and maybe I wonder if that was the reason why we moved to Jefferson Park. There was one family, the Katahira' ; s who lived close by and they were members of our church, Christ Church of Chicago. And up until fairly recently, Mrs Katahira lived there, I think until two years ago. Yeah, but they were the only ones I don' ; t. Oh, and there was a Chinese family. We used to get Chinese food there, from the Moi' ; s. AT: 00:32:24 And, um, what kind of, besides school and church, were you involved in any of their activities with as a kid? JK: 00:32:34 Um, once I grew up in, we moved to Park Ridge. Yes. Um, oh, I, myself, I uh, from about middle school, I guess when all my interests in the camps in Japanese things came about. Um, we, uh, went for Japanese dancing, odori, through the Shizako Imbei Dance Troupe and Ms. Imbei was a member of the Buddhist Temple of Chicago and so all the instructors and other members who are, um, primarily members from there. So we took that every Sunday. My sisters and I, and even my brother did classical dancing for a while. My young, my younger brother had, um, well in birth order, my older brother, Donald, uh, I don' ; t think he took judo, but he was involved in the Nisei Ambassadors Drum and Bugle Corps for several years. And they were based out of the Buddhist Temple of Chicago. And I was a color guard in the junior corps for awhile. But I know that was a big part of our growing up, going to all his practices and then parades and exhibition. We follow the corps all summer long and still have lifelong friends from that experience. My parents did, and even, I do via my brother, Don. A my younger brother Eddie went to, um, well, we all went to Japanese school. Um, me, Eddie, Nancy, and Anne and that' ; s how I know your grandmother Takada Sensei through Japanese school. Um, Eddie went to judo and he also, um, play kendo. And it was actually from kendo that he, uh, acquired a love of, of fencing, foil fencing, and he became an accomplished fencer in high school, uh, in college. And then in university, um, he became, uh, the assistant women' ; s fencing coach at Northwestern for awhile and he' ; s still fences today. So that was from BTC. Nancy and Anne uh, and Eddie too, they, um, played ah softball and basketball in the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association. I because I have bad eyes, and I played the violin, was not doing any sports. I wasn' ; t involved in that. But I would go to their games and when I learned to drive, drive them around, so I was a part of it too. And my peers at Tri-C were involved in those sports, um, activities too, but I couldn' ; t participate in those or I chose not to. AT: 00:35:07 Hmm. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about the drum and bugle corps? Maybe what, what they did? You said they met out of BTC? JK: 00:35:18 Mhm, okay. They, were, as I understand it, it was, in those days and it still might be, the drum and bugle corps were sponsored by the American Legion is a, as a youth activity and this includes non-Japanese communities, all communities had these drum and bugle corps throughout the country. And this one, um sponsored by the Nisei Post was open to youth. I think he had to be 13 from 13 until 21 years old. And then you aged out. So they formed themselves as the Nisei, Nisei Ambassadors. And it was kids from all over. And then I understand there were some Chinese kids, although Chinese, Chinatown had their own band. And then there are some African American kids that came from the South Side. And I don' ; t to this day, I was wondering how did they find out? But they, but they did come and uh, practiced music too. That' ; s where some, you know, learned about music. But it was, uh, a youth activity in supposedly to keep kids busy. So they would meet for rehearsal either at BTC. And when the corps got too big, they used to meet at the Broadway Armory over on North Broadway. I think it' ; s near Granville. And have practices there. We had fundraisers, fundraising for uniforms and at the beginning, all the mothers, sewed the uniforms, except for the pants. They used to wear purple satin blouses. And I remember my mom, sewing my brothers and making sashes and things like that. And then finally they had, um, enough money, um, to buy real uniforms, band to look like band uniforms and of course instruments were purchased by the corps. So it was a huge enterprise. They' ; d start off with a small van and eventually got a big truck. Um, people would cook, make um onigiri, rice balls, and chicken teriyaki. And my older brother Don told me that one of the, uh, African American boys when he got married to an African American woman, he made her learn how to make onigiri and chicken teriyaki because he loved it so much. So I thought that was very, uh, cute. Uh, but it was just a wonderful time. Everybody had a lot of fun. Everybody got along and then as the corps grew and became better, they would win competitions and then they start competing on a national level. I remember going to Washington D.C. and New York for competitions. It was very exciting. It was a family vacation for us. They performed on the capital, steps. Um, was, you know, Inouye must' ; ve been in Congress, Senator Daniel Inouye must have been in Congress at that time, and also ah representative Spark Matsunaga from Hawai' ; i I think was there too. To welcome and. I remember we did get a tour of the White House and tours of other places in Washington, D.C. through that corps, drum corps trip. AT: 00:38:19 Oh, so it sounds like your, your family is very involved with, you know, the greater Japanese American community in the city, at that time. Um, a lot of this was happening while you were, you all were living in Park Ridge? JK: 00:38:36 Yes, mhm. AT: 00:38:38 And so would you be commuting to different places in the city? JK: 00:38:43 Yes, um, Monday through Friday we were Park Ridge people going to school and Saturdays in the evenings, Saturdays and Sundays we were in the city going to church, going to these sporting events. Um, one reason I think that was responsible for the Kaihatsu kids getting, um, spread around different places. My father, Omar ran an insurance agency. He had his own insurance agency, so he insured just about everybody and everything. And that' ; s how he got to know people, not from just Tri-C, but the Buddhist temples and the other Christian churches, as well. And uh he also had another side business, the Japanese cinema, which he ran at Francis Parker school. Um, he rented the auditorium on Saturday and Sunday to bring, uh, films from Japan, um, which at that time, the only place you could probably see it was at an art movie house. And even then they weren' ; t showing Japanese films very much. It was mostly from Europe and, um, but he would show a modern film, a contemporary film and uh, the called chanbara or a period film, samurai film. Each time there would be three showings, a Saturday night, uh, Sunday matinee, a Sunday evening show. And at first it was mostly community, but then as word got out, we have all kinds of film lovers. And my mother took the tickets and we also served ah Japanese tea and rice crackers uh free of charge at intermission. But my mother said that she remembers, um, she called him a fat kid with glasses coming in and to watch movies. And we think it was probably Roger Ebert. Cause eventually Roger Ebert called Omar and he wrote a story about, you know, this guy showing, uh, Japanese films. And later, um, I ran into Roger Ebert maybe about 15 years ago and he was so funny. I said, hi Roger, you know, my father used to run a Japanese films I wanted to thank you for, and he goes, " ; Wait, wait! Don' ; t tell me, Omar Kaihatsu!" ; Like that. And he just said. Oh, I just wanted to say thank you for the publicity. But he, he was telling the guy who' ; s there from facets, multimedia. He said her dad was a voice in the wilderness showing foreign films when nobody else would touch it. So we were grateful to Roger Ebert for that. And then when John Belushi on Saturday Night Live, had his samurai gig, my mom remembered him coming in to watch the movie. Second City was not far away from Francis Parker and he must' ; ve sat in those horrible. His character we believe is Toshiro Mifune, um, and my dad loved Toshiro Mifune and we showed probably just about every film that Mifune ever made. So I think that' ; s where that samurai, um, character comes from. So again, another reinforcement of Japanese culture that' ; s, you know, very unusual that I' ; m sure other Japanese American kids did not get. Um, so in one sense I, I didn' ; t feel shame about being Japanese American well, I loved the culture, but yet I, I did do want to fit into that Park Ridge culture, community life style. And I always did feel different. So in my own personal case, I feel I' ; ve always been an outsider. I' ; ve been an outsider in the mainstream world because I was Japanese, but within, in my own Japanese American community, I felt like an outsider too. So it' ; s just maybe why I went to Japan for nine years. AT: 00:42:33 Can you tell me more about, um, why you felt like an outsider even in the Japanese American community? JK: 00:42:39 Uh, because I, um, I felt like an outsider in the Japanese American community, um, for a couple reasons. One because I' ; m physically a lot taller than everybody. I' ; m five, five and everybody was, was small and thin and I felt enormous. The other thing was we did not live in the city. So a lot, particularly Tri-C a lot of the people um the other Sansei, saw each other during the week at high school or school, and then they' ; d see each other in church. And so they were all really good friends. I' ; d only see them once a week at best. And the other thing was I did not have that natural reticence that I see in a lot of Japanese Americans. I, again, I was used to dealing with Caucasians with hakujins every single day for sur, to survive. And it was just a part of who I was. And my, my mother not as much, she' ; s very shy. But my father was not shy about anything, about dealing with anybody. So, um, he was like a big role model for me. So that' ; s why I felt, um, outside. It wasn' ; t that anyone was mean to me or anything like that, but I think that' ; s how, uh, the Japanese psyche is, it' ; s not what they say, it' ; s what they don' ; t say. It' ; s not what they do, it' ; s what they don' ; t do. And it was pretty clear to me. AT: 00:44:02 When, when you would make these trips into, into the city, um, were your, your friends and your connections here was mostly everyone, Japanese American or? JK: 00:44:15 Yes, mhm, I would say. Yes. AT: 00:44:19 And uh, I also want to just ask a little bit more about the, the Japanese cinema program. JK: 00:44:25 Sure. AT: 00:44:26 Um, so how do you know how your dad got involved or interested in doing that? And, and around what time was that, also? JK: 00:44:43 Okay. In the early 60s, I want to say about maybe 63' ; or 1964. The Buddhist AT: 00:44:51 Like before [inaudible]? JK: 00:44:52 Right. The Buddhist Temple of Chicago, BTC, was showing Japanese movies in their social hall. I don' ; t know how that came about, but I do remember going to that. And then for some reason, oh, it was, it was a fundraiser, I believe, at the Uptown Theater. This movie called Samurai Rebellion was shown, on the big screen. And it was the first time that I had seen a, a Japanese film on a big screen like that. We had seen it in the social hall and I was just blown away. And I think because of my father' ; s own upbringing as the son of an actor in Hollywood and for all the, the older, the Nisei Kaihatsu' ; s, the interest in film never left them. And so probably seeing what was going on at the BTC gave him the idea, well, why not do this? So he needed a venue. And then, um, he contacted a woman named Mary Sabusawa who was, uh, working at Francis Park, Parker School. Mary Sabusawa' ; s sister was Pat Suzuki. Pat Suzuki' ; s real name is Sabusawa. And so with this kind of showbiz, uh, angle, I guess, Mary Sabusawa was supportive and went to the board at Francis Parker School to allow my father who did not have a child attending the school or anything, uh rent the auditorium. Now how he got the connections to the, the Japanese studios, I' ; m not sure. He might' ; ve, um, contacted why I' ; m thinking the most logical thing is he contacted people, in Los Angeles, his hometown, because Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco, all had up and running Japanese movie theaters. It was called the Toho La Brea at the time. But the major Japanese studios, Toho Studios and Sochiku Films had freestanding movie theaters near Little, Lil' ; Tokyo. And that' ; s probably where he got, uh, in touch with the studios and talked with negotiations for them to ship, uh, the films, the films used to come, um, via air freight to our house in Park Ridge, these giant films. And then my father, um, set up a projection, projector in our basement and screen them to make sure, cause some of the films were a little bit more liberal in terms of sex than, uh, American standards towards. So he would actually edit those parts out and splice it together and then put it back together when he shipped it back to, uh, California or Japan. AT: 00:47:31 Do you, uh, when you came into the city, did your family go to oh, any Japanese American or businesses or do you remember any restaurants or kind of the, the fabric of the, geographic neighborhood too? JK: 00:47:50 Um, coming, well, the only place you could get Japanese food, was Star Market. And Star Market' ; s owners, Howard and Sarah Hatanaga, were members of Tri-C Christ Church, our church. But I remember it was a tiny store front under the L tracks on Clark Street, just south of Wrigley Field. And we were not, we kids were not allowed inside. So it was a big mystery three, cause my mother said it was too small and when I finally was able to get in there, she was right. It was too small. I mean everyone was small then so you could barely get through the aisles. But it was the only place where they had, um, Japanese food. And then for our birthdays, and actually for birthday parties, the goodie bags that I always gave away were, um, little Japanese candies called Tomoe Ame. And it had rice paper wrapped on it. And we used to get that at Toguri' ; s Store on Belmont, near Clark, uh, Toguri' ; s Mercantile, where we would later, when we went to, uh, Obon, odori practice at the Buddhist temples, we would buy our yukata there and things, but Toguri' ; s was the place to buy Japanese goods. And I always remember going in there. Had a very distinct aroma, and I guess it was incense, made me think, or plana wood or something. But this always reminds me of Japan going in there. Uh, for special occasions, birthdays when we could, um, in the early 60s, there was a restaurant, I believe it was in Lincoln Park West called Nakanoya. And they actually had tatami rooms. Um, but they had a hole cut out because no one can sit that way, at that time. So we had sukiyaki and that was a very big deal. I can only remember going there two or three times. But later on, um, another restaurant we used to go to, well prior to that, but this wasn' ; t particularly Japanese food, but it was called Crest. And it wasn' ; t far from Star Market. What street is that? Is that, Racine? It might be Racine. And it' ; s across the, cross away from Nisei Lounge. But, um, we used to call it Crest or Susie' ; s, but. AT: 00:50:07 On Sheffield? JK: 00:50:07 Was it Sheffield? AT: 00:50:08 Yeah, Nisei Lounge was on Sheffield. JK: 00:50:09 Okay. No, it was, it was further west, but not far. AT: 00:50:14 Okay that' ; s Racine. JK: 00:50:14 Is that Racine? AT: 00:50:14 Uhuh. JK: 00:50:14 And it was a diner though, run by an Issei woman and you could get rice with hamburger and gravy on it. But I always liked their hamburger with, on a toasted buttered bun. So we' ; d go there. And then later on in the late 60s, um, Kamehachi opened up and Kamehachi is a famous chain from Japan. But the woman Marianne Konishi decided that she was going to open up a sushi restaurant. Which growing up in the Midwest, I almost never ate. I didn' ; t eat sushi, cause we couldn' ; t get fresh fish here. And, and so I didn' ; t even know what, sushi was. To me, sushi was inari sushi or nori maki, not sashimi type sushi. So Marianne Konishi, who had been recently divorced, um, decided to import some Sushi chefs here. And her daughter, Angie, who' ; s a good friend of mine, um, and, and Marianne was a friend of my father' ; s cause he ended up insuring the place too. But Mari, uh, but Angie and her sister thought that her mother had lost her mind and that Angie and her sister were never going to go to college because her mother had just taken their college money to sink into this restaurant. And kind of how, she was located right across the street from Second City on Wells. And it did really well. And we used to go there for every birthday because they had yakitori, which was something else that was very unusual. We had, we were used to regular chicken teriyaki, but yakitori was something new. They had authentic Japanese food. We never did learn to like the uh sashimi, but it was okay, because we were five kids and it was too expensive anyway, so. So those were the main places who went to. Then later on, Matsuya Restaurant opened up in the Wrigleyville area f Clark Street, just south of Wrigley Field. Um, there was a time, there was a restaurant called Koto, which is now near, um, no, which is now the location of Renga Tei in Lincolnwood. Um, most recently there was the Sunshine Cafe, uh, on Clark Street. And then out in the suburbs there were a Teppanyaki restaurants, the Benihanas, um, the Ron of Japan. But we didn' ; t really go to them very often. I think in our case because of the five kids, it was a matter of cost, but I don' ; t know. Um, I do know we went once, to Ron of Japan, as a family and once to Benihana. And then of course Rocky Aoki, had kind of an unusual reputation I guess, too. AT: 00:52:57 Um, I just want to make sure we' ; re coming up on, on time. JK: 00:53:01 Sure. AT: 00:53:03 And um, just a few more questions. Uh, I wanted to, kind of take it back to, um, when you were describing your experiences kind of growing up, going through through the schools in Park Ridge. Um, I guess, could you just, um, also revisit some of the things that you saying and like kind of dreading December 7th, and things like that. How would you describe, um, your experiences growing up? You know, as a Sansei, as a Japanese American, however you identified in Park Ridge, at that time? JK: 00:53:45 Well, in, in elementary school, um, although I was scared to death, I remember that first grade I was, I was in third grade going to that school in Park Ridge. Um, but it was fine. The teacher was very welcoming. Um, I made friends, um, with a lot of different girls. In fact, her mother, she was blonde and I had black hair, and she used to call us the salt and pepper shakers and you know, birthday parties. Everything seemed very normal. And then, um, my mom, um, uh always made sure to introduce to my friends, um, Japanese culture too. I was very lucky. My Kaihatsu grandmother, uh, had a cousin who worked in a department store in Nagaya. And when I was born, she ordered a doll set for me the Heena Matsuiri doll, the complete doll set. It was probably $1,000 at the time or something. I can' ; t believe it. But we would put it up every Girl' ; s Day, on March 3rd. And then my mom said I could invite a couple of friends over for lunch and we would look at dolls. We didn' ; t have Japanese food. We had I think grilled cheese sandwiches and soup and cake. And then we would look at the dolls and that happened every year. Um, through middle school, I don' ; t recall being bullied. Just December 7th was touchy, again, not that anyone did anything, cept, a couple of boys would throw snowballs at me and say, you know, they wouldn' ; t say Jap go home or anything. Uh, one guy used to call me made in Japan, but it was kind of enough, a term of endearment. He' ; s actually still a friend of mine today from fifth grade, but I just felt that everybody was looking at me, when they ever mentioned Japan and in particular the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I just felt very uncomfortable. The war had only been over for 20 years. When I think about it in the 60s and 70s. Um, high school was not a problem. High school I was more, um, comfortable with myself and in fact, history teachers would let me take over the entire period and talk about the internment and I would show them pictures from the books, like Bill Hosakawa' ; s book and the American Concentration book, um, American Concentration Camp book is, that' ; s all, all we had. So that was not a problem. To be honest, I actually experienced more racial prejudice at the University of Illinois in Urbana because I was going to school with people from downstate Illinois, ah, who had never seen an Asian in person, in the flesh, before. And brought up a lot of prejudices. So I think that' ; s when I felt more, um, overt racism was at U of I. And to this day, I, I graduated from U of I in East Asian history, but I don' ; t have a lot of fond memories.You know, I' ; m not a huge alumni fan, things like that. It was, it was okay. It was a place to get a degree. AT: 00:56:54 So clearly a lot of, um, people from outside the Japanese American community, have really picked up on, this history given, you know, some of the you know contemporary issues. Uh, you know, the general political climate. Um, what, what are your, what are your hopes, for, for future generations, um, especially in regards to this history? Like what do you hope people to kind of take away or learning or, um, you know, what legacies do you hope people to understand from the incarceration, [inaudible] JK: 00:57:47 I think the most important thing is that, uh, when America, the population of the United States is a diverse country. Uh, is a diverse, diverse population, there' ; s all kinds of people from all different kinds of countries. And ways of thinking and different religion. And that the Japanese American population, at the time of Pearl Harbor, was easily targeted and it was very small and very voiceless. And I think that the, this, um, uh, the title of the exhibit at the Alphawood Gallery really struck me As They Came For Us. And I had never really thought about it that way, to be honest. But that' ; s exactly what happened was they were targeted, they were marginalized and had been for s, you know, sometime, but in one sense, who, if you' ; re not white, who hasn' ; t been marginalized. And even Italians and Irish, were marginalized. Um, but knowing that they were, ah Japanese Americans were targeted, marginalized and then, um, ignored by most of the mainstream. Of course, the American Friends Service Committee tried to speak up, they were too small. Once they were in camp, the Maryknoll, um, sect tried to be helpful. But, um, most people, um, didn' ; t speak up. The times were different. You didn' ; t challenge authority, but now, times, you should challenge authority and people have. And that' ; s what I hope that people, um, the legacy is that you cannot, when, when, when, uh, injustice is happening to a group of people, you cannot be silent cause this is the consequence. Now, of course, more people were born than died in the internment camps. But it was, it' ; s still a terrible stain, on the history of the United States and the hypocrisy for what we all stand for. And not to mention, I will be very blunt, economic loss. I mean, my grandparents had a grocery store, Kaihatsu family had homes, you know, many people had farms, lands that would be worth millions had they stayed, I mean, my, you know, my father' ; s neighbors on Santa Monica Boulevard today, if they still had that property in Northern California, if they still had that grocery store in downtown Berkeley. Oh my goodness, you know. So that economic loss was really never addressed. Yes, they received $20,000. But I had heard that at the time of the moratorium during the Vietnam War when protestors were arrested, um, without, cause they were awarded something like $40,000 in compensation for like two or three days of injust imprisonment. Whereas people like my mother spent entire three years in internment camp. So it' ; s, it' ; s costly to United States when we go against our principles. And in today' ; s climate, uh, it' ; s getting dangerously towards that way to people of color who don' ; t have loud voices and don' ; t have people advocating for them. Um, I think it' ; s unfortunate, if every single Japanese American did advocate for these marginalized minorities, it still might not do any good, but it' ; s good to see that exhibits like these, get exposed to other groups of people who may stand up for the others. Uh, I as a Japanese American people, um, I think that we are getting smaller and smaller in numbers. I do worry that the story will disappear, but as long as there' ; s ah people who like put together this exhibit, think about it and these pictures and artifacts, uh, continue to exist, I would hope that the story be told again and again. And, and the descendants of the internees too, though they may be getting fewer in number. I hope they, they still keep talking about it. I know I do. I, I was at the Women' ; s March and I made two giant posters of internment camp pictures. I said, never again. I just carried them around and got people talking about it and they said, yeah, that' ; s right. That was such an interesting march cause there were so many issues that were brought up that, um, had that were deeply upsetting to people. And I thought, I have to make sure I have to do my part that this issue is not going to be buried. That we will continue to talk about it. AT: 01:02:28 We are five minutes over an hour. JK: 01:02:31 Okay. AT: 01:02:31 Um, do you have time for one more JK: 01:02:35 Yes I do. Yeah, actually. AT: 01:02:37 Um, sorry, I' ; m just trying to cram. JK: 01:02:39 No, not at all. AT: 01:02:39 Everything in, all at the end. JK: 01:02:42 It went fast. AT: 01:02:45 Um, you have such a distinct recollection of the Japanese American community and, and a unique insight, just given how involved you were and your family was. JK: 01:02:59 Mhm. AT: 01:02:59 Um, I would love it if you could describe, um, you know, what the Japanese American community was like from your upbringing in the 60s and 70s in Chicago. Um, and then if you could describe how you see the Japanese American community today? JK: 01:03:22 Okay. From, from what I understand, like, um, from my church, Christ Church of Chicago started in 1948 and there was, there was a lot of fear among the, the Jap, relocated Japanese Americans themselves and there' ; s fear and suspicion on the mainstream society. And the FBI was watching people who are leaving church and people didn' ; t think much Japanese culture, didn' ; t want to know, and things like that. And so I think the community, um, this professor told me that kind of collapsed in on itself and was very tight. Um, and I think it goes back to what my mother said too why, you know, people didn' ; t like lose it all over the place because everybody had been in the same situation. And I think it' ; s part of the Japanese psyche all for one is we' ; re all going to lift each other up and you, whatever issues that you' ; re having, you' ; re just going to have to pull them aside. Cause we gotta get going here. We have to become Americans. We have Sansei coming along now and we are just gonna make it and we' ; re not going to cause trouble and we' ; re just going to get on with our lives. So I think with the Nisei, that' ; s exactly what they did. They didn' ; t want to talk about camp. Maybe some felt shame and anger and hurt, but I, I didn' ; t see it because I think my parents were of that ilk. there' ; s an expression in Japanese, I learned, called maemuki, which means face forward. And that' ; s what they did. You' ; re just gonna face forward and keep going. So we followed the Kaihatsu family, my personally, family followed the same trajectory as the rest of mainstream America. In the 50s and 60s. We bought, upward mobility. We bought a house in Park Ridge. Kids went to good schools. Um, and I think in the city as well, the greater Japanese community, was trying to do the same thing. Everybody got jobs, they worked hard, but they still wanted to main, um, maintain contact with each other. And I think, um, for the, for the Nisei it was because the social ties were still very closed to them. They weren' ; t as closed to me, but I know my, my mother, why didn' ; t she joined the Park Ridge junior league or something like that? I don' ; t think she felt comfortable, you know, that she still wanted to associate with her own kind. And that' ; s what they did. Particularly since she was Buddhist too. So we had friends at Midwest Buddhist Temple, which was the sect that she was from, even though we did a lot at, at BTC too. So, um, you know, we, we, you had the youth activities with the drum corps. You had the Chicago Nisei Athletic Association with all those sports teams and you understand there' ; s a thousand kids at one time participating in all these games, especially the Softball Diamonds at Grand Park. And uh, it was, it was growth. It was positive. The older Sansei came along in the late 60s, uh, probably influenced by their cousins on the West Coast with Yellow Power and ethnic identity, wanting to know more about Japanese culture, who we are, where we came from. Uh the Vietnam, I didn' ; t talk about the Vietnam War at all. Uh, I think that definitely had a divisive, um, aspect in the community. I know, um, it was very painful to look at pictures of the Vietnam War and see American, white American soldiers attacking and killing Asian people. You know, I know I felt terrible looking at them. My, um, older brother and my father had arguments about the war. My older brother Dan was just lucky enough that every time the lottery numbers came up, and they were printed in the newspaper, he pulled a very high number. He still had to report to the draft, but he wasn' ; t going to get, um, drafted because the number was too high. And my father had served and, and uh against this will actually, he said he didn' ; t really want to go, but he didn' ; t want to go to prison. So he felt my brother and one of my cousins who was an out now draft dodger, he went to Canada. Um, um, that they should serve. That was their duty. So, you know, I didn' ; t hear too much about the publicly, so I knew that if it was going on in my family, it had to be these kinds of arguments had to be going on in other families too. Um, between the Nisei, who you know, came from the highly decorated 442 and the Sansei who didn' ; t want to go, who were by and large went to college, and were anti-war protesters. There are, um, Sansei Vietnam vets. I saw them. I never talked to them. I kind of regret, some of them have passed away too. They must have had really interesting stories. Uh, and in the 70s, there were a lot of, there was the Obondori, odori, the Ginza holiday. There were the, all these events where you would see everybody and then you had church picnics. Um, the JASC had a picnic and the JACL had a picnic too. And those were mostly attended by the Nisei, but the Sansei kids came along too and ran the games. And it was a time to reconnect with everybody. Now, as the 80s came along and I myself moved away from Chicago for awhile. Um, there was more, uh, interracial marriage among the Sanseis. And Sansei did not return to the city, for example, where they had grown up, they went out to the suburbs. We were already in the suburbs, actually, I came into the city to Andersonville. I did the opposite, but by and large, the other Sanseis went to the suburbs and their kids went to school out there. So by the 80s, you start seeing fracturing and, and a dissipate, dilution, I guess. The events are still happening. The churches are still there, but they' ; re not as strong, anymore and if we fast forward to today, Christ Church there, everybody, I don' ; t think there' ; s a church or temple that' ; s really folded but we' ; re hanging on by our fingernails and there' ; s some doubt of well no, I guess there' ; s no doubt that it' ; s going to continue as a Japanese American entity. But whether these events will still happen, is probably in question and I think it, it makes people sad. It makes me a little bit sad. But at the same time, um, though when you look at the mechanics or what had happened to the community, it' ; s natural, how could it not become this way? Um, is that a legacy of the internment? Um, it could be by being, the Nisei pounding into us, you know, we have to succeed, we have to get along. We don' ; t make waves. And then racist mainstream society moved on to other groups and left the Japanese alone. You know, you know, so maybe that' ; s part of the problem too. If Japan had not been rehabilitated then maybe we would still be at a tighter community. If you look at the African American community, which in the eyes of the white mainstream has never been rehabilitated despite a Black president, you know, and you will still find enclaves. You know, in Atlanta for example. Maybe when I think back now from 1948 when people were terrified of sneaky Japs and today, so sushi is sold at Dodger Stadium. Everywhere you go you can get, sushi, bento. It' ; s really amazing how far the perception of Japanese has come. And that made me think about the Muslim community. If the Japanese community, of course it did take 75 years or so, um, can be rehabilitated and accepted and admired even among the mainstream society, wouldn' ; t that happen to the Muslim community. It' ; s just right now, we don' ; t, we' ; re afraid, people are afraid. They don' ; t know much about them. There' ; s not voices speaking for them. You know, I would hope so. I would like to think that America is that kind of community that because of what happened to our community, injustice, but rebirth and growth and acceptance, that it will happen to others who are marginalized too. That' ; s, that to me, I hope is the greatness of the America in the future that I would like to see for future generations. AT: 01:12:13 Oh, well thank you so much for coming. JK: 01:12:16 You' ; re welcome. AT: 01:12:16 And sharing. Um, before we wrap up, is there anything that you' ; d like to add or that I might have missed? JK: 01:12:24 Umm. Um, well I do have a detailed um, memory. I, I also was the chapter president of the Chicago Japanese American Citizen League. So that put me in a lot of contact with, with people. So I guess I was in kind of a, I was the youngest Sansei and first Sansei, a woman president, at the time, and I was the youngest uh at the time. I was 25 when I became the chapter president of JACL, 1982. AT: 01:13:00 And, and what, um, I mean, I apologize, cause, I, I have a lot more questions, but I know JK: 01:13:11 Oh, okay. No, it' ; s alright. AT: 01:13:12 Cause we' ; re short on time. JK: 01:13:12 Sure. AT: 01:13:12 Um JK: 01:13:15 I' ; m okay. AT: 01:13:15 But I guess, quickly before we wrapped up, um, what, since you brought up your position, what inspired you to to go for that position? JK: 01:13:26 Um, well, my father, Omar had been on the board. So that' ; s how I got in involved in, in JACL. And, um, nobody else would do it. I remember we came to that point, we are at a board meeting, so who' ; s going to be the president? Jane, why don' ; t you be the president. I don' ; t know how to be the president?! And he said, well, why don' ; t you be the? I don' ; t. We' ; ll support you. That' ; s what the Nisei said. And so I said, okay. I' ; ll be the president. And that again, kind of makes me an outlier about, uh, you know, being a typical Japanese American. Okay, fine, I' ; ll do it. You know, so, and they did the Nisei did support me here at the, at the local level. And when I went to, um, a national convention in Gardena later that year, everybody was stunned when they heard a Jane Kaihatsu, they thought I was a Nisei, woman. And they could not believe that a Sansei young woman was the president of Chicago. And I was not the first Sansei, however, but, um, and that' ; s a huge difference between the communities on the West Coast and in, you know, east of the Mississippi. They were willing to take that chance and it was a great opportunity. I have to thank them, you know, became a poised person. I got to meet the Mayor of Chicago, Jane Byrne at the time. I sat right next to her and cause our names were Jane and uh, she was, she' ; s was very intimidating, you know, cause she' ; s running this big city. But what a great opportunity. Um, and to work with different generations. Prior to that I had the Nisei were always, you know, are my parents' ; friends. But when I worked in, um, when I was president, JACL really gave me a unique chance to relate to them as adults and peers. And that made me grow up really fast. It was also, uh, an exciting time too, cause they had started the commission on wartime relocation and internment of civilians and they were holding hearings all over. And I was, I was the president. I was wasn' ; t really involved in setting up the hearings, but it was really fascinating to watch the Nisei and some of the older Sansei prep witnesses and get organized for it. It was a great learning experience for me to see that kind of process. AT: 01:15:49 So I guess what you' ; re saying is, we' ; ll have to get you back in for a whole other JK: 01:15:50 I forget. AT: 01:15:55 About those experiences. JK: 01:15:55 Uhuh AT: 01:15:58 Yeah, thank you so much. JK: 01:16:00 Oh, you' ; re quite welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KaihatsuJane20171027.xml KaihatsuJane20171027.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kaihatsu, Jane (10/27/2017)
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Kaihatsu is a third generation Japanese American (Sansei), born and raised in the Chicago area. In this interview she shares what she knows of the immigration and incarceration experiences of her mother's and father's families and describes her own experiences growing up first in Chicago and then in the suburb of Park Ridge. Jane details the many community events and organizations she and her siblings participated in and shares memories of her father's efforts to screen Japanese movies for a Chicago audience. She describes the challenges of growing up in Park Ridge where there were few other Japanese Americans, and the feeling of being an outsider in the Japanese American community because of her suburban upbringing. She also recalls the experience of being the first sansei, first woman, and youngest person to serve as president of the Chicago chapter of the Japanese American Citizens League.
Date
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2017-10-27
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video
Series: Then They Came for Me
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/11/2017 Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe (11/11/2017) 1:00:11 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Huxtable, Ellen Watanabe Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/309193349 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/309193349?h=39b8517a5a" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you state your full name? Ellen Huxtable: 00:00:02 Sure. My name is Ellen Watanabe Huxtable. AT: 00:00:05 And where and when were you born? EH: 00:00:07 I was born in Chicago in 1953. AT: 00:00:11 Okay. And so like I mentioned, we' ; ll be interested in hearing a little bit about, um, your family' ; s background and your parents specifically. So I guess to start, are you Sansei? EH: 00:00:27 Ah, yes. AT: 00:00:28 Okay. And then do you know anything about when your grandparents came to the US? EH: 00:00:32 I know about my paternal grandparents. My paternal grandfather and grandmother had one child in Japan. My eldest aunt, who I never did get to meet, and then they immigrated to California to San Jose, I believe actually by way of Hawaii at one point, but they did, did land in, in San Jose. And uh, my grandfather worked a number of jobs in that area. He was a, he, both my paternal grandparents were in the trades. My paternal grand, my maternal grandfather was a gardener. My paternal grandfather did lots of things. He did, I believe he did some gardening, he did some handyman work, things like that in, in Southern California. And my paternal grandparents were in the Los Angeles area. See my maternal grandparents were in Los Angeles, paternal ones were in San Jose. I' ; m sorry. AT: 00:01:35 Did you know your grandparents? EH: 00:01:36 I did not ever meet my paternal grandparents. I did know my maternal grandparents when I was little. At that time, after the war, they did return to the Los Angeles area, as did my maternal side, aunts and uncles, aunt and uncles returned to the Los Angeles area, so they were all in Los Angeles and my parents relocated to Chicago after the war. AT: 00:02:00 And then as far as your, your parents go, how old were they? When the war broke out? EH: 00:02:09 They were, in their, probably in their thirties because they were born, they were in their thirties when the war broke out, so they had established jobs. My mother worked for a dental office. My father worked in the, in the, in the produce markets in Los Angeles. And my mother worked as a receptionist for a dentist who was Jewish and when the war was eminent, war with Japan is eminent, he offered to relocate my mother to live with his sister, uh, outside of the exclusion zone or what would have become the exclusion zone. And so he offered to have his sister house her and feed her, and so for the duration of the war, and my mom decided against that, she turned down the very generous offered because my grandparents were alive and nobody knew what was gonna happen. And so she needed, she felt she very much needed to be there with her parents no matter what was gonna happen. So she respectfully declined her, her boss' ; s offer to relocate and be spared from the exclusion. AT: 00:03:16 Do you have any idea or sense of where exactly the sister was living? EH: 00:03:20 Somewhere in the Midwest. It was significantly off, out of the exclusion somewhere in the Midwest. AT: 00:03:25 Hmm. And then how about your dad? EH: 00:03:30 My dad worked in the produce markets. Um, he was here. My paternal grandfather was here. My paternal grandmother had returned to Japan with all of the younger children. And so my, my dad was here with his, with his father. The family history in that case was my paternal grandparents came to this country to make money and go back to Japan. And my, the plan was, and what happened was my, my paternal grandmother took all of the children back to Japan and my grandpa, my father was about 11 to 14 years old when that happened, so she took all the children, including my father back to Japan, and my father spent a year or two in school in Japan, which was very difficult for him because he didn' ; t know that much Japanese and was put in with the class as much younger children because of that. And my grandfather on my father' ; s side was supposed to have closed down the boarding house, which they ran, ran a boarding house in southern California. He was going to sell the boarding house, close it down, and go back to Japan as well. And in that one year period, my paternal grandfather was victim of carbon monoxide poisoning. He had abrasion of coals in his room, let off carbon monoxide, and he was mentally disabled. And so a family friend wrote to Japan and said, he cannot, he cannot survive on his own. He can' ; t come back. So at the age 14, my father came back from Japan to the United States all by himself being the eldest son to watch out for his father. And so when the war book I would just several decades later, um that' ; s why my, my paternal grandfather and my father were the two members of that side of the family that were in, uh, in southern California at the time my father worked with my uncle and my maternal side, which is how he ended up meeting my mother. And so that' ; s how they knew they were very close families even before the war broke out. AT: 00:05:38 Can you tell me about what happened to both families when the Executive, what are, when the Executive Order went out, but when the evacuation happened? EH: 00:05:49 When that happened, everybody was at, was in the Los Angeles area at the time. And so when that happened, the families were evacuated as the exhibit, as it' ; s described, in family units. So my mother was in the family unit with her, her parents and her and her brother and her, her parents, her sister, her younger brother. Her parents, her sister, I take it back, her parents, her sister, and one of her younger brothers. The other younger brother, on my mother' ; s side, my uncle was in the US Army before Pearl Harbor and he was scheduled to be discharged for the US army in December. Unfortunately, Pearl Harbor happened right before he was discharged and when Pearl Harbor happened, nobody was discharged. And so he did, my one uncle did serve during the war in the US Army, uh, a stateside in a very isolated capacity, but he did serve in the US Army for the duration of the war. And when he was home on leave, he would be going to the Manzanar Relocation Center to go home on leave. AT: 00:07:07 Do you know if either family unit went to an assembly center? EH: 00:07:12 Yeah, they went to the Santa Anita Racetrack. Both of them both went to the Santa Anita Racetrack. And uh, from there were transferred to Manzanar. Um, my father had at Manzanar, was one, I think he was probably in charge of the athletic programs there. So he was a, he had been a summer pro baseball player before the war and organized the sports and sports activities in Manzanar. He also ended up organizing the artificial flower making factory or whatever you want to call it, activity at Manzanar because that was something that was, that he had a skill and that he' ; d been in the floral industry prior to the boards, well, he understood flowers but knew how to construct artificial flowers out of crepe paper, wire, things like that. And so he, he was active in the camps as a sports coordinator. Um, and certainly member of the base, Manzanar Knights' ; baseball team. AT: 00:08:20 And do you know anything about his, uh, his time in as a semi-pro? EH: 00:08:27 Yeah. When he was in semi-pro ball, there was a Japanese, a Japanese American semipro baseball team, and had a number of them. They had a league actually prior to the war and he played for a one of the, the LA Nips and it was the LA Nips baseball team. He played locally. They also traveled to Japan prior to the word twice to play against teams in Japan. And so he had been in the team of for, a period of time before the war. He was also very active before the war in a group called the Oliver' ; s. There was a woman in Los Angeles, a, a Caucasian woman who was, seems to be sort of like the, the, the Hull House for the Japanese American youth in Los Angeles, and that was a very active group as well that my, my, my grandfather, my father was part of. AT: 00:09:28 And then how about your mother? So she also went to Santa Anita and then Manzanar. Did she take up work in camp? EH: 00:09:31 There really wasn' ; t a lot of work available and so most of the people, including my mom, really didn' ; t have a job everybody, had the stipend that they received for, to buy incidentals, but she didn' ; t really have a formal job in the camp. However, to pass the time she made an incredible collection of lace, doily tablecloths. So I have a lot of lace, handmade, beautiful lace doily table class because she was very adept at that. They had lots and lots of time and sometimes we have some very, uh, very, uh, dramatic pieces of artwork because of that. AT: 00:10:12 And then, do you know how long each family unit was in camp? EH: 00:10:19 I don' ; t know exactly. I know that my father, my father came out of camp relatively early because the, as he explained to me when I was little, as the war was starting to wind down the word went out in camp that you could leave camp and see if you could find a job and if you could, you could stay out. If the sentiment was so strong against the Japanese community that it was dangerous for you or you couldn' ; t find work, then come back to the camp because at least you' ; ll safe you' ; ll be fed. So my father came out to Chicago because it was known that Chicago was relatively accepting of the Japanese community. So he came out to Chicago first and wrote back to my mom saying, I' ; m in Chicago and my parents weren' ; t married yet. Saying, I' ; m in Chicago and it' ; s livable here. If you want to come out, I' ; ll watch out for you. And so at that time, according to my parents, my mom they were hanging out in the group of guys and women and my mom went and told the people that evening " ; Gee, Min--who was my father--Min wrote and said that Chicago is livable. And invited me to come out and some of the guys that were there say, well, hey, we' ; re leaving for Chicago in the morning early and if you want to, if you want to come with us, be at the gate at 6 o' ; clock. And my mom' ; s said, sure, I' ; ll go with you. And they said, no you won' ; t. She said, sure I will. So in the morning there was my mom with her suitcase to leave the camp with these guys we have with my dad in Chicago. So that' ; s when my parents ended up coming here and I know from JASC and that they' ; ve done graphic things about about where the Japanese community located. My parents located on the North Side. We lived, they lived first of all at the corner of probably Clark Street and near Clark and Chicago Avenue, or Clark and Chestnut was. There was a boarding house where they lived first initially and then they moved to a four-flat building on Chestnut Street. So when I was. When they were living at the 11 East Chestnut, which was a very residential neighborhood, and my uncle, my father' ; s younger brother also came out to Chicago and always stay geographically very close to my parents and my family. So he lived in the same building. AT: 00:12:44 Was this the uncle who was serving? EH: 00:12:44 No, this wasn' ; t. This was my paternal uncle, my maternal youngest brother, my maternal youngest brother went back to Los Angeles with, uh, with my grandma, my maternal grandparents. And so they got married. He got married after the war. AT: 00:13:03 For your dad' ; s family, his siblings and his mom had been in Japan during the war? EH: 00:13:11 Yeah. His siblings and mom had been in Japan. They lived in rural Japan and uh, they were from Kumamoto-ken and I don' ; t know, I believe that they probably went back to, I don' ; t know, they probably did think about it. So they were back in Kumamoto-ken. Um, my father had told me that one of his younger sisters, my aunt and her husband, because they were in their twenties, late twenties, early thirties were married. They were living in Hiroshima. And when the bomb went off in Hiroshima, my aunt and my uncle were, were spared because they were there visiting in the country so they were not, they were Hiroshima residents, they were not Hiroshima at the time of the bomb. And so that' ; s, you know, it was very fortunate. It was extremely fortunate for them. AT: 00:14:01 Are there any, um, does your parents ever share any particular memories or stories? EH: 00:14:12 Mhmm AT: 00:14:12 Are there any of the family? EH: 00:14:14 Well, there' ; s a couple of them, but that don' ; t involve family members. There' ; s a, when the, the movie on television Farewell to Manzanar came out. One of the episodes that was related in there was when there was somebody that was being pursued by a mob that at the camp and went to the hospital to hide because in the camp there' ; s not a lot of places you can hide. And so the, the family history was that in the movie they said that they put them in the laundry or something like that. And when my parents and I were watching, when I was younger and my parents said naw, he wasn' ; t in the laundry, they put him, my parents they had put them underneath a woman that was in labor in the maternity wing. He so you think he wasn' ; t in the laundry, he was under a woman that was in labor. That' ; s where they put him. So I don' ; t know whether that' ; s true or not, but that' ; s what they, their recollection was, and there are other recollection was that there was a. A young man who was a little, slightly mentally handicapped and a ball roll too close to the fence and he was shot by a guard. Not fatally, but that was another one of the things that they remembered as being one of the episodes that they remembered from camp. AT: 00:15:22 Did your parents talk about their experiences with you, when you were growing up? EH: 00:15:27 They did and my parents were of the opinion that it was important to know and so they would tell me things about, I knew about the camps. I didn' ; t know, um certainly, they didn' ; t overplay the hardships, but they told me that that' ; s where they met a lot of their friends and in fact when I was little and they would talk about their friends, they were trying to identify who knew who it was like, oh yeah, that was so and so. Who are they? Well, they were in Block 22 and, and that' ; s how they related to each other. Oh, that sounds like, they were in Block 15. So they were far away geographically. So that was there like as somebody from Evanston or somebody from wilmette. No, they were from Block 22, they were from Block 21. And so that was their geographic reference, who, when they were meeting new people that uh, that, that relocated into the Chicago area. AT: 00:16:19 And when they came to Chicago, what kind of work did they do? EH: 00:16:24 My father was working in a brewery, they worked wherever they could find. My father worked in a brewery and afterwards he said, did you know how they make beer? You said you would never touched the stuff again because of course at that time it wasn' ; t quite the same thing as Anheuser Busch with the beautiful horses and the Clydesdales, it was probably very, very basic and so he said if you don' ; t know how the conditions under which brewery' ; s, you' ; d never drink it again. And so he worked at brewery at first, then went to work in the floral industry. He was a floral designer when I was born in 1953. He was a floral designer, whereas before what would that time was Anna Flower Shop, which was the preeminent florist in Chicago. They did the cotillions, they did all the social engagements. They did the flowers for Holy Name Cathedral was a very eminent, a florist in Chicago. My mom worked again as a secretary. So my mom got a secretarial positions. She had clerical skills and typing skills. So she worked in a secretarial position? AT: 00:17:27 Do you know where she did? EH: 00:17:27 Not initially. I don' ; t know where she worked initially. Um, so I, I can' ; t remember where she worked initially, I don' ; t know. AT: 00:17:36 And then the floral business, do you know where that was located? EH: 00:17:41 That was on the North Side of Chicago actually, and my dad was able, was able actually to walk toward from, from where we lived. And so it was, um, but that was where he went ultimately when I was born, when I was born and little. That' ; s where he worked for, for that period of time. AT: 00:17:59 And do you have any siblings? EH: 00:18:01 Nope. It' ; s just me. The, the North Side of Chicago was interesting. There was, besides myself, my best friend in elementary school was Japanese American, also Sansei. And so there was the, my family, her family. Um the Kawasaki family with three sons, and ah the Higashigawa family with one son. And so there was in a school that was very small, we had a good number of Sansei all going to the same elementary school at the time. So that was very interesting. AT: 00:18:35 Which school was it? EH: 00:18:35 That was the William B. Ogden school, which was on State Street in Walton. And so there was a cluster, a significant cluster of Japanese Americans that lived there. Toguri Mercantile was just down the street. And uh, of course Mrs. Toguri was there. And uh, was a member of the community and people knew that that was her background is Tokyo Rose had been, but it was something that was just part of the past and we all knew that and was accepted as, as just, just the fact of the past. AT: 00:19:10 Do you recall any other Japanese American businesses or um? EH: 00:19:16 It was fun to right within walking distance of there, there was, um, there was Clark Restaurant which was run by three Japanese brothers at the corner of Clark Street and Chestnut. And they were the Joichi brothers and there was Rowland Joichi, Oscar Joichi and Chester Joichi. Three brothers ran a greasy spoon restaurant, it was very efficient. The one brother had the breakfast shift, the one brother had the lunch shift and the other brother had the dinner shift. And so they were very well established. Um very popular with the Chicago Avenue Police District because any officer that came to their restaurant, no matter what day it was, a dollar and coffee was always free. There were the safest restaurant in all of Chicago. And so that was one of the businesses that was there. Um, Star Market was the, was the grocery store that was there and uh, that was a little bit further away, but, uh, that, that was when the neighborhood grocery stores. Of course, totally Toguri Mercantile was there. And um, so those are the Japanese businesses that I remember being in the area. AT: 00:20:34 And then uh, what about for doctors and dentists? I know a lot of folks were going to Japanese American services when possible? EH: 00:20:49 Actually my parents really didn' ; t. We used, I was born at, at, at a Wesley Memorial Hospital, which is part of the union, of the Northwestern campus now, but all of our doctors were pretty much a Caucasian. All of our professionals, pretty much Caucasian at the time. AT: 00:21:07 And then, um, how about, was your family religious at all or did you have any activities outside of school? EH: 00:21:15 We were, we were not religious. I would periodically go to one of the local churches with some of my friends, the, we did go to the Buddhist Temple to the Buddhist Temple of Chicago once a year in January for my grandfather' ; s memorial. Um, my, my paternal grandfather came to Chicago as well, along with my father, brought his brother and his father to Chicago and my paternal grandfather died the year before I was born, so I never got to meet him. But he died in Chicago. And at the time he passed away, it was in January, my my of 1952. My parents didn' ; t know anybody. My father made blind calls and ended up calling Reverend Gyomay Kubose, who had just started the Buddhist Temple in Chicago. And so Reverend Kubose presided at my grandfather' ; s funeral. And my parents were always, you know very appreciative that, very much a, we got over the many, many decades. We got very close to, to the Buddhist Temple. Uh, my parents were Christian though and uh, so that every year consistently you' ; d go once a year to the Buddhist Temple. And when my father passed away, he wanted the, his memorial service presided over by Reverend Kubose. And then the pastor of the church that my husband and I went to. So we had this half Christian, half Buddhists memorial service, my father. But Reverend Kubose was, you know, very, very active and had a very dynamic and still, still very dynamic under his son. AT: 00:22:54 So the reason for reaching out to to BTC this had less to do with the Buddhist affiliations. EH: 00:23:08 That was because my grandfather was Buddhist and so my. My father felt that he wanted to honor his father' ; s preferences that he knew of and so he reached out to, he was looking for a Buddhist, a connection to honor my grandfather. AT: 00:23:28 And you said that sometimes you would go to church with friends. What were some of those churches? EH: 00:23:35 Oh, when I went on my for a while to Fourth Presbyterian, because this was on the North Side. And then I went for a while as a little bit older to El Masales, which is a church that drew a lot of it' ; s Sunday school teachers from Moody Bible. So those are the two churches I went to. There was also a church I, I wish I could remember where it was. There was a church that had a large Japanese American congregation that we went to once or twice, but it was geographically too far away, so we didn' ; t go very often. As far as social things go, my Dad played golf with the 19th Hole Golf Club, which is how I know [San Sunomia?] Who was on the video, because he was one of my dad' ; s golfing buddies. And my mom and I would tag along often, so I know San very well at least when I was 10, 11, 12 years old. And so that was one of the very strong unifying things for the for my father and getting involved in, in the, in the larger Japanese community. And so there was. That group was called the 19th Holers. They played local courses. There was some are private and there' ; s another group called the 19th of the call, the cavaliers golf group, and they were out of a church because they only played on Saturdays because all of them went to church on Sundays, which is really nice as opposed to my dad' ; s golf club who were a little bit more non religiously affiliated who golfed on Sunday morning, at six in the morning. But uh, eventually those two Japanese American golf groups came together and so then they became the 19th Cavaliers and the all golfed together as a unit. AT: 00:25:12 And so how long was your family been uh over on the north side of Chestnut. EH: 00:25:19 We were there until I was out of the eighth grade, so that would' ; ve been 15, 16, til the mid sixties probably. And during that time that particularly had great turnover, it was residential when I was very little. It became highly nightclub oriented as Rush street, which is right there, moved, was expanding, so it became a very, a very dynamic nightclub neighborhood. It was highly nonresidential. And so then our family kept on moving further north. We moved up to right by Wrigley Field for a while and lived there. The people that owned the restaurant at Clark and Chestnut moved their restaurant up to up to the north side of Chicago right by Wrigley Field. Um, so their restaurant moved. At that time there was already a small Japanese, oh, a small restaurant owned by a Japanese person on a very small triangle of land on Clark Street, right by Wrigley. Um AT: 00:26:15 Do you know what that was called or where exactly it was? EH: 00:26:17 It was like Hamburger Heaven or something. AT: 00:26:21 Hamburger King? EH: 00:26:21 Hamburger King. Somebody' ; s told you about Hamburger King already? AT: 00:26:25 It was even around in my lifetime. EH: 00:26:28 Okay. It was on a little tiny triangle of land and they had like seven little stools in it and it was bizarre. And then I went across the street from, that was Nisei Lounge, which was the bar that had pool tables and when my family moved up that way was my favorite hangout, which is pretty fun because it was a bar and he didn' ; t, he never drank. Having seen how beer is made, he didn' ; t want to touch the stuff. And so, but he would go there frequently to play for the Nisei Lounge, which was happily happily next door to the restaurant, has, door passed between that and the Japanese restaurant moved up from Clark Street. So it was a very nice little microcosm community. Star Market was just a few blocks down on properly Belmont and Clark. And so there was, there was a relatively compact Japanese community at that time. AT: 00:27:16 Would you happen to remember the name of the re, the new Clark restaurant? EH: 00:27:22 Oh gosh, that' ; s a good question. It was Clark Restaurant and it became, I can' ; t remember. I' ; ll have to think about that one. Good question. AT: 00:27:32 And how about your address with what streets were you living on? EH: 00:27:36 When I lived, when we moved up north, I always in high school then, which would have made it in, in the late sixties, late sixties. And it was, we lived at 921 West Cornelia, which is one of the court buildings. It' ; s just down the street from Wrigley field. We lived, we lived in, in the court, which put us very close to both the Japanese owned restaurant and the Japanese bar, which is very convenient. AT: 00:28:03 Um, which school, did you go to? EH: 00:28:05 I went to Francis Parker and so that, um, I would catch the bus on Clark Street, and ride the bus, the Clark Street bus down to school and then ride the bus back at the end of the school day. And so I would do that, some of our family, our family friends went to Senn and lived right across the street from Senn High School. Some of our very good family friends went to Senn. AT: 00:28:26 Did you ever go to the Japanese cinema that was held out of Clark Street? EH: 00:28:30 No, no but, but it was fun because um the person that I met was Omar Kaihatsu. And I remember him in the corridors and he was a very dramatic person. He had, he would wear his coat over his shoulders, sort of like a cape. They would go through the halls of the school is, as a very dramatic character and then on something else and it might have been on the drum core things that my son is involved in. Somebody else named Kaihatsu on there, on Facebook. So I texted him, I said, hi, are you by any chance related to Omar? And the person says, that' ; s my father. How do you know him? I said well, because when I was in school he used to come through the corridors and I have no idea why he was there. It was because of the Japanese cinema and so I had no idea about the Japanese cinema, but I remember, I remember Omar Kaihatsu from that. AT: 00:29:21 Were there other Japanese American students at Francis Parker? EH: 00:29:25 Yeah, there was, the Hikawa sisters were there. And I' ; m thinking who else was there? Um, oh yeah, there' ; s a couple of guys. Um, there are several other Japanese families there. The Kurahara' ; s, Marty Kurahara was, one of, was another family there. And actually I need to look up, I need to look up the, the Hikawa' ; s because they marched in the Nisei Ambassadors from the Bugle Corps. And that' ; s what my son is researching now for his senior project probably feeding into a PhD thesis that he wants to do. AT: 00:30:07 And then, your high school where they, were you involved in any extracurricular activities? EH: 00:30:12 Not really. Not really. It was, um, it was very, not really, we didn' ; t get involved in any. It' ; s not like the, the, like the, the other kids did. AT: 00:30:24 And how would you describe your overall school experience in Chicago as you were growing up? EH: 00:30:31 It was fine. I think that there was, I never really experienced any discrimination. I never experienced anything that was racial or hatred. The kinds of things that people accepted just as part of the culture then were very different than they are now. And that people would have the little, little things that playground that would say things like Ching Chong Chinaman sitting on a fence. Or they' ; d say, my father is Japanese, my mother is Chinese. And I' ; m both. There were many things that were racial. But at that time I truly never took offense. Nor did I think any other other children' ; s parents are parents may or may not have. But as children at the time, um, it was, it was not said in hatred and it was like something like Jack and Jill went up the hill. It was a little diddy rhyme that never really, at least in my case, had that, uh, it' ; s stinging impact at all. AT: 00:31:31 And then uh, what happens after ah your family lived in Lakeview? Did you all move again? EH: 00:31:42 We kept on moving more north, so after that we ended up moving up north up to Dam, up on Damen Avenue. Then we moved further north and ended up by Lincoln by Lincoln Avenue and Irving Park Road where like my parents had retired and lived there, had a very small house. Made my mother very happy because she didn' ; t think she would ever have a house of her own. And so we moved up to up to there and that when I got married I moved with my husband, moved to where my husband was in Des Plaines. Well, my parents were in that house until they both passed away. AT: 00:32:21 I' ; m sorry, they were both in the Lincoln and Irving house? EH: 00:32:25 Yeah. Yeah. Which is off of Lincoln, Irving. They lived on Berteau, which is just north of Lin, Irving Park on Lincoln. AT: 00:32:31 You had mentioned is, uh, your dad' ; s involvement in the golfing club. EH: 00:32:42 Mhm AT: 00:32:42 Were there any ways that you personally found yourself involved with the Japanese American community? EH: 00:32:52 Very marginally because we did not have, we did not have a car when I was little, so our transport our transportation was very limited when we needed a car. When you borrowed the car from the guy that worked the third shift at the Clark Restaurant, because he was there until one in the morning, so when we needed to car, we' ; d walk two blocks down to Clark Restaurant, ask the owner for his car keys, borrow his car, do whatever they wanted to at nights long as it was back by midnight or so. We return his car keys and walk home. And so we, I got, I didn' ; t get involved a lot in, in the Japanese community at all really because there were not that many opportunities that were availed themselves. AT: 00:33:34 And um, you could just help me clarify it. The brothers, at Clark Restaurant, was that the Joichi brothers? EH: 00:33:44 Okay. It was a very eclectic restaurant and would you kind of think it would be interesting to make a television show about. Because it was three brothers only this restaurant, they had a polyglot of customers there was [Michia and Yasha?] two Russian guys, one of who would do Russian dances in the middle of the restaurant when he felt so moved. One of whom looked like something that was like out of your typical cartoon character. I mean, just big guy. And so it was a very interesting place. You' ; d have people there that were down on their luck. You' ; d have to police walking in all the time. Um very, very interesting community at the time. AT: 00:34:27 Can you describe the, what it looked like on the inside? EH: 00:34:32 Sure. It was an interesting little restaurant. It was a little greasy spoon restaurant. There were probably eight tables that, four running down one long wall. On the other side, there was a counter with probably 10 benches. And in the middle there' ; s probably two or three tables that would seat two people a piece. And the fun part about that of course is that the brother who ran the the dinner shift, which is the busiest, was the youngest of the brothers and kept everything in his head. He didn' ; t cook. He didn' ; t wash the dishes, but he waited all the tables. He bussed all the tables and he ran the register and the way he did it was quite amazing. He would get, you' ; d open the menu. You' ; d ask for, order your thing everybody would order what they wanted to and when you' ; re done, we' ; d walk up to the register, he' ; d look at you say, okay, you had the meatloaf, the mashed potatoes, the coffee and the rice pudding for dessert you owe me and he would have the whole bill all split out, he' ; d know exactly what everybody had and how much they owed him. And so that' ; s how he did it efficiently was all in his head. So it was a pretty interesting uh, thing to watch my uncle from my father' ; s side who relocated to Chicago with my mom and my dad was their steady customer. He was there for dinner every night at the same time. It' ; s 6:00. If I wanted to find my uncle, we knew where to go, we would go there. Was at the same table every night eating the same dinner every night. So it' ; s really quite convenient if we needed to find my uncle. AT: 00:36:08 And the location you described, is that its original location? EH: 00:36:13 Yeah. Of the restaurant? AT: 00:36:15 [Nods] EH: 00:36:15 When they, when as far back as I can remember, which should' ; ve been in the mid-1950s, uh, they were already very well established there. AT: 00:36:33 So what, what year would that have been that you moved out to this place? That wasn' ; t in the city. EH: 00:36:39 That would have been in 19, 1988 probably. So I was in the city for a long period of time. AT: 00:36:50 And how did living in the suburbs compared to? EH: 00:36:55 It was very different. Certainly I have to become a much better driver than I had been in the city and unfortunately I lost my, all my, my city sense of how the L' ; s run and how the buses run and everything like that, because when I was in high school I was a, I was able to go pretty much anywhere in the city that I wanted to on public transit and I don' ; t have that skill anymore unfortunately. And so that was one of the changes that had to become a much better driver than I than it had been before. But the, um, I think the Relocation experience was one for my parents, that was good. I mean, my, my, my aunts and uncles on my mom' ; s side, we' ; re back in Los Angeles. We' ; d go back to visit them once a year, sometimes once every other year but they had established their life over there and my parents had established their life' ; s over here and it was a change that would have never happened had it not been for the war. I' ; m sure that my parents would have stayed in Los Angeles, can continue to do what they did there. It was a very different turn in their lives. AT: 00:38:04 Do you know anything about your mom' ; s family' ; s experiences or what it was like going back to LA? EH: 00:38:12 I don' ; t know. When they, when my grandparents left camp. They, my mother' ; s oldest sister was an optometrist prior to the war. My mother' ; s, she was married to a dentist before the war, so they were both, two professionals. And after the war they bought a, a bungalow courthouse complex, which is, which actually on, um, on Google maps, the crazy building is still standing. It was old when I was a kid. And this stucco building is, is that they were at 985 and 4/5th South Ardmore in Los Angeles. It' ; s still there. But they bought this section, I think it' ; s 16 units and then an old farm house kind of house. And my grandma, my maternal grandparents ran the complex for my aunt, my uncle, and so they lived in the old firehouse house and they pretty much took in the rent, handed out the keys and somebody locked themselves out of their apartment and did the, the general oversight on behalf of my aunt and my uncles, my maternal grandparents lived their lives in a very comfortable existence because they had a place to stay in, in, uh, we' ; re compensated, I expect in some way by my aunt for watching the property for her. So they were, that' ; s where they lived until they passed away. AT: 00:39:45 All of this information that you have about your family history and experiences, how did you get interested in learning about that? Or was the process like for learning all of this information? EH: 00:40:03 My parents would always share everything and they would tell me about about family history. I know that my on my father' ; s side, my, my, my great grandfather and my, according to family lore, immigrated from Japan to Hawaii because she went to Yokohama Harbor, to see his friend off on the boat and decided he was going to jump on the boat and go with them and so and so that' ; s how my, my great grandfather ended up in Hawaii. He did work at, I think, owning a pineapple plantation and my grandfather, his son was evidently not much of a pineapple plantation farmer and ended up not following the family trade or the family business and I think that they lost. My understanding is they lost the plantation because not management, but so that' ; s part of the family lore that, you know, my father would tell me about the stories about the past and um my parents, things would come up conversationally because as an only child I was always very careful that whatever was said in front of me as a child, the line was, don' ; t repeat it. You got it. And so by, by having that degree of trust, I could hear an awful lot of things from my parents talking about things. And it was like, well, here' ; s what' ; s really happening and here' ; s what so and so' ; s did or has done or did and they would talk freely in front of me. So I just sort of sat there and listened and ended up finding out all sorts of things because because they were very comfortable and their friends, we' ; re very comfortable talking in front of me. So I just learned just by listening to people what, you know, what things are like AT: 00:41:54 That' ; s um, from what I heard and learned from speaking with people. That seems pretty unusual. The, you know, hearing about these experiences. EH: 00:42:05 My parents very much felt that this was something that was important and of course until things like this exhibit came, um, many people had no idea. Maybe people still have no idea as to what happened because there' ; s, the tour guide was so apt to point out the camps were very carefully located there in places that people didn' ; t know about. And so that there was lots and lots of just lack of knowledge about any of this happening. And my parents knew that and they felt that if people didn' ; t speak up about about what did happen, that the memory would be lost in therefore the experience would be lost and it was too important for, it was too important that that not be lost. AT: 00:42:52 And how do you feel about that? EH: 00:42:54 Well, I think that it is very important because in this, especially with all of the, the still latent fear and uncertainty and people being so afraid of difference and you can' ; t blame people for being afraid of difference if they' ; ve never been exposed to or taught things, but I think it' ; s important that the whole experience be remembered because people need to realize that yes, it can happen. Yes, it did happen. So that we as a society are going to be able to to cut it short, to avoid it. To say people can say, well, that will never happen, and the nice nice enough, the positive is that people can no longer say, that will never happen in this country. We know about the Holocaust and were it not for the Holocaust, we would People would say, that' ; s impossible. How can people be so inhumane that can never happen, well it did. And then people can say, well, that kind of a profiling in segregation of a certain group that would never happen in the United States and and because of this we can say yes it can, and it did. So I think that' ; s the part that' ; s very, very important and that' ; s what my parents very much wanted to have that remembrance. Not that it was anything that was family oriented only, but that there was bigger than that. This is something that was much bigger than that and that that collective society memory is not lost. AT: 00:44:39 Do you feel a responsibility or any kind of obligation as a Japanese American or or daughter of people who went through this experience to keep that alive? EH: 00:44:55 I think that, I think that' ; s important. When people asked me about it, certainly, I share what my parents told me. I share their experiences that I know of. I definitely share it with my son because he, he' ; s felt a very close affinity to my parents because my mom was alive when he, until the time he was in kindergarten and she was very close to where she was, old and frail, so she spent a lot of time staying with this for extended periods, so he got to be very close to her and he felt by assimilation close to my dad because my son was, always loved baseball. My dad, of course, played a, you know, semi pro baseball and so he always has felt that affinity for him. And so because of that, he' ; s always wanted to know more about the, about the grandfather he never got to meet you. He wanted to know more about the background for my mom. So that, and so that makes it very easy to share with them some of the, uh, experiences. And also we have some items that my parents did save because they said, I know there' ; s some people said we' ; re going to get rid of everything that reminds us of any of that time. My parents did save some certain things from their period. Uh, we have a couple of pictures that were painted in the camp. One of them has to be my paternal, my paternal grandfather and he was one of the people that went to Manzanar to build Manzanar. Because he had carpentry skills and there' ; s a picture that was painted and of what I know is my paternal grandfather because I' ; ve seen pictures of him, it was a hand painted picture, cartoonish nature, and he looks just like Mario, in the Mario games. He was really short, stumpy size, very short, very stumpy, a mustache. He had the little slouched hat, he had little carpenter' ; s apron and is carrying a big mallet in this, in this picture. Looks like a Japanese Mario. So I have things like that that there are pieces that my parents handed down to me and that my son has seen and when he' ; s asked, he' ; s done some school projects on Manzanar. And so when asked about school projects, I have the things that I have from my parents. I' ; ve shown them to him. So he knows what we have. I have the notebook my mom had when she was taking dressmaking at Manzanar. You mentioned how what did she do. They had lots and lots of opportunities for people to learn hobbies and so people that knew how to do something with would show others how to do, what do they knew. And so my mom took up dressmaking, which was wonderful. She was never very good at it. Her best friend was superb at it, which is really good, but my mother was never good at it, but she had detailed notes from her dressmaking class that I have her notebook and that has ended her address Manzanar is for her, her block in her barracks and unit number that she had. AT: 00:48:00 Can you tell me a little bit about this book that you had mentioned before I started filming that you' ; re working on, and what inspired you to do that? EH: 00:48:10 Well, I have a book that I am. I do have to finish because it is important for family history, but when my son was very little, he was very, very upset that he never got to meet my father and his he and then when my mom passed away, that was a seminal moment for him that he was old enough to understand, but misses her, still misses her greatly and he was wishing that he would have had a chance to meet my dad. So I wrote a, a middle school, a young middle schoolish book, in a time travel mode. So in this book my son would have had the opportunity as a character in the book to go back in time to go to Manzanar and to engage with and meet my dad because my dad had questions very involved in baseball at the camp and then he would have a chance to develop that relationship that he never had a chance to develop and so I wrote a draft of the book and very much from the heart and recognize of course, that that, that as far as plot development in complexity, it' ; s not ready yet. It' ; s not ready. I do need to do more, but certainly this is something that my son has has had the opportunity to read and even when he was much younger, this is done when he was in middle school, young middle school. He' ; s now in college and almost ready to get out. It' ; s been a while, but at the same time it was, that prompted me to do a lot of research about Manzanar and the camp experience and when I started the book years ago now, there is almost nothing out there. There were the photos of Dorothea Lange through the photos of Ansel Adams. There was some things that Densho had pulled together, but there' ; s very little out there and now that there' ; s so much more available, I' ; m able to fill in a lot of the things in the book, some of the texture of the detail that was just not available before then. The Manzanar Free Press, uh, the newspaper there were, there were selected copies available as pdfs years now I know that the whole Manzanar Free Press has been digitized and is available. And that' ; s how I found out about a lot of the things my dad did because his, with his profile in the athletic programs at Manzanar, his name does come up occasionally in the Manzanar Free Press. And family friends that I knew from when from childhood, their names come up in the Manzanar Free Press as well. So as I think about [Shio Tashimo?] was a woman that was a professional bowler from the pro bowl circuit after the war, uh, an in-law of my mother' ; s and she was a, she was a jock back and Manzanar, I mean she was uh, uh, I was a very athletic woman. She was a jock back in Manzanar, and that' ; s all in the Free Press that she and her sister, who' ; s my, um, my mom' ; s sister in law, uh, they were both very athletic back, back in Manzanar. Things like that are, are fun things that as I find names of people I know, that are in there, and I remember them when I was a child and what they were like after the war. So it was always fun, it' ; s fun for me to go back and look sometime. AT: 00:51:39 Are there ways that you, do you think that there were any kind of lasting impacts or or legacies from the experience of the incarceration that we' ; re kind of passed down to you or that you experienced in your own life? EH: 00:52:04 I think that if it' ; s something that had a profound effect on the identities of the Japanese American community. That the community always, even though they often have enclaves like Japantown in Los Angeles, that the, the, the overall philosophy, overall mindset of the Japanese community was was one of assimilation integration, not to give up the things that are that are Japanese, like the Obon ceremony and in, in LA. Not to give those things up but to but to be part of the American culture, which is why, for example, the Nisei Ambassadors were a Japanese group that was very engaged in this very USA activity. Most of the drum corps of the time were run by the VFW Halls. And so this, there was always this feeling I think, of, of wanting to be good US citizens. I think that that was, that was intensified by the experience in some cases. In some cases, no, there are people that after the war that my parents knew that said I' ; m going back to Japan, so that, but for some, for one part of the community, part of it was that, no, we are, we are Americans. We' ; re going to prove our loyal to the 442nd of course. We are Americans, we' ; re going to prove our loyalty, we' ; re going to be American. And I think that was something that was always there. There' ; s also the recognition that there is a, there was at the time, certainly a racial bias. The people that were successful as adults in the broader community after the war were very circumspect. They were very much the ideal employee and as children were raised too very much to be the ideal child. And so I think that kind of thing was always part of the Japanese, uh, expectation. I think that, that, that, that expectation though was, was sustained because we want the community very much wanted to prove that they were US citizens. One of the things I remember from childhood was when I was about six or seven in the Rush Street neighborhood. We lived off of Chestnut, there was a rash of fires. We had a pyromaniac in the neighborhood and buildings are being torched every few nights and they were major fires. The person was very good at it, unfortunately, and one of them was a multistory residential buildings that was three doors down from where we live and there was an arson investigation because this was arson, and things are going up every night. And the arson investigators were making inquiries and they, they asked about my family because the, the, my, my parents and myself and my uncle were the only Japanese and that in that area. And so they asked about. They' ; re asking the neighbors about our, my family. Do they think that somebody in the family was the arsonist basically? And God bless there was a Italian woman in the building and she was very outspoken and she wrung the people out and said, no, that' ; s a family, they' ; ve been here for many years. They' ; re upstanding citizens. They' ; re not who you' ; re looking for. They' ; re not the arsonist. And she got very mad at them, uh, for, for having that kind of prejudicial thinking. They did find the arsonist actually, and it was interesting because back then technology was pretty smart. They took pictures of the crowd watching the fire and they looked in the crowd pictures. There was somebody who was in all the pictures that would look really abnormally happy and they, that was the arsonist. The person was setting the fires so that he could watch them. But the, uh, the prejudice that was there, except Rosa was that this family is not white. Um, is there somebody in that family that is setting, setting these fires? So that was one of the things that did, was a, a racial stereotyping, prejudice. Still at that time. AT: 00:56:28 What are some of your hopes for your children and maybe eventually grandchildren, for future generations in general. And if you could have, you know, pass down any kind of message or legacy, what would you want to pass down? EH: 00:56:47 I think that what I see is that there are two things that are important. One certainly is that we' ; re all part of a larger society. We' ; re all part of the United States. We' ; re all part of a world actually, we' ; re part of a world, a world nation now. The world is very small now. We' ; re all part of a world community and that' ; s important. I think it' ; s also important to celebrate the things that are unique to each culture, each, each nationality, each, each, each culture has very unique things that should be celebrated. And I think what is important is that we as a world nation get to appreciate the differences and not be fearful of them and not be biased toward any one set of tendencies, any one culture and any one background. Any one ethnicity that everybody has great contributions. Every culture, every individual has great contributions to make. And that by celebrating those we were all richer for it. Uh, that the, that, the fear, that the lack of understanding based upon a lack of knowledge, it is something that we can' ; t afford the capability in this day and age of blowing the whole thing up. It' ; s very, it' ; s very simple to, to wipe us all out in this day and age is very simple and that is going to be a product of fear and hatred and lack of understanding. I think that what the whole experience is should teach us and hopefully will teach us all is that differences that they' ; re to be celebrated, that we' ; re all richer for this, that this is something that makes the can make the United States a very great country or can rip this apart and that polarization, which is something that right now is was very, very prominent, which is unfortunate. That polarization is destructive and it will destroy it. There' ; s no, there' ; s no way around that, but I think that the, the experiences as being in a minority culture is that every culture has great things to contribute and that we all need to appreciate that which is sometimes hard for people to do. AT: 00:59:25 Well, thank you so much again for taking the time to speak with me. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? EH: 00:59:36 Not really. I think that I appreciate you taking the time to do the interviews and I hope that this is something that becomes a richer and richer project, because it' ; s the experience of one group at one period of time, but there are things in there that are universal. And there are things in there that are important to capture because things history repeats itself. And if they can establish things so that the good things repeat and the things that are unfortunate, don' ; t repeat them. It' ; s worth it. So thank you for the time. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HuxtableEllen20171111.xml HuxtableEllen20171111.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Takada, Anna
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Kawano, Linda
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5.4 11/1/2017 Kawano, Linda (11/1/2017) 1:16:13 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kawano, Linda Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/297406079 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/297406079?h=c87e48f1cc" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:01 This is an interview with Linda Kawano as part of Alphawood Galleries, Chicago resettlement experience oral history project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition. Then they came from me, incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two and the demise of civil liberties. Today is November first 2017 and we' ; re recording at the Alphawood Gallery oral industry studio. Linda Kawano is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. And to start, can you just state your full name? Linda Kawano: 00:00:32 Sure. Linda Suzu Kawano. AT: 00:00:35 And where and when were you born? LK: 00:00:37 I was born in Chicago on October 16, 1953. AT: 00:00:44 Um, and like I mentioned, we' ; re interested in hearing a little bit about your family' ; s experiences during the war. So can you just tell me a little bit about your parents, where they were from, where they were born? LK: 00:00:57 Sure. Um, my mother was born in Del Ray, California, which is outside of Fresno. Um, and uh, her father and mother came from Japan, I believe my grandmother was a, perhaps a picture bride because I don' ; t believe they came together from Japan. And they were grape, raisin grower, grape growers, which, and then also produced raisins from the grapes. And my mother had a younger brother, Raymond Nakagawa. My mother' ; s name was Grace Nakagawa. And Suwato and Natsui Nakagawa the names of my grandparents. My father' ; s side, uh, entered the port of Seattle. So they, but they first, I think my grandparents came together from Japan, but I don' ; t know that for sure. My, um, my grandmother' ; s family' ; s from the Hiroshima area and my father was from the Otowa area in Japan. They initially settled in Medford, Oregon where my father was born, Minoru Kawano and then they moved to Seattle and had another child. My aunt who' ; s still living, she' ; s almost 97 years old and she lives in Seattle area in Redmond, Washington. So they lived in Seattle and that' ; s where they lived until the war broke out. AT: 00:02:32 And what did your father' ; s family do? LK: 00:02:35 Um, my grandfather was a chef. He worked at the, I believe it' ; s called the Hotel Seattle or the Seattle Hotel, which is now a Fairmont hotel in Seattle. And um, my grandmother didn' ; t work AT: 00:02:54 And, um, so when the war broke out, what, where did your families go? What happened? LK: 00:03:03 So in the case of my father and his family, they went to the Puyallup assembly center in Puyallup, Washington, and then eventually were moved from there to the Minidoka Relocation Camp, in Hunt, Idaho, I believe. And my mother' ; s family, they went to the Fresno Assembly Center and from there were transferred to the Gila River, Arizona, a relocation center camp for the war. AT: 00:03:38 How old were your parents? LK: 00:03:42 I believe my mother had just graduated from high school. Now ah four years prior to the, I guess Pearl Harbor, my grandmother died. So my mother was a without a mother for four years and then went into the camp. Uh, I think her brother was two years younger and they all, the, my grandfather and my brother and my mother went into that campaign, Gila River. Um, in the case of my father, um, he had gone to the University of Washington and, uh, uh, I guess as a graduation present, my grandmother took him to Japan. Um, and my aunt went to. Um, by that time she would have probably graduated from high school. She was a couple years older than my mother. She and my, she' ; s the only living relative now, uh, everyone else has died. But, um, my, uh, grandmother had a, my grandfather stayed back in Seattle working and I think my grandmother wanted to have my wanted to go back and stay in Japan, but it was in the late thirties and my aunt had a friend in the State Department. LK: 00:05:00 Well, I guess it would have been the embassy in the US embassy and was telling my, um, my father and my aunt that it wasn' ; t very safe. And eventually they returned to a, uh, it would have been Seattle and my father came back on the last ship that they allowed back. Um, because the last ship that came out of Japan, uh, headed for the States, I believe, when midway in the Pacific and then was turned back. So, um, by that time my grandmother had returned to the States. Um, and um, so they got back, but that' ; s what happened. AT: 00:05:44 In by a hair. LK: 00:05:46 Yeah by a hair. AT: 00:05:48 And do you know about how long the families were in camp? LK: 00:05:53 Uh, yeah. Uh, basically. So in the case of my father and my aunt, I think when, um, it was decided that they could leave the camp, if there was a sponsor jobs East, um, according to my aunt, my father, they decided that they' ; d go as far as they could because they were given a free ticket, I guess by the government, I suppose War Relocation Authority. So they chose New York City. So my aunt went from Seattle, but she went first and she had a job with a Presbyterian minister. Um, I think he headed the Presbyterian, ah organization for the US and lived, I believe in Brooklyn, New York. So the job was for him or her to live with them and I believe take care of the kids or help at least at the church and perhaps in this organization. So she went out there first and connected and I don' ; t know how they connected up, but she did connect up with other Nisei that had gone out there and then wrote to my father and said, you know, why don' ; t you come out to. LK: 00:07:04 And so he found a job at the Taft Hotel. Um in New York City, which is now, I believe the Michelangelo. It' ; s in Midtown and uh, that' ; s where he worked and I believe they had separate apartments, but eventually they moved in together and there was this little Japanese community in this community that we' ; re two people by the name of the Shino' ; s, they passed on too, but they were working for um, I believe they' ; re working for Pearl Buck. And they said that Pearl Buck' ; s husband needed and Pearl Buck needed a, um, someone to work in the office. So Pearl Buck' ; s, husband, second husband, I think his name was Mr. Walsh. Um John Walsh. I think he, he had John Day Publishing Company and on Fifth Avenue and that' ; s just publishing company published Pearl Buck' ; s work. He had married Pearl Buck and he had children from his first marriage and they were still, I think young, so they had taken the, she had taken him in, but they had an apartment on Fifth Avenue I believe. LK: 00:08:16 And then they also had a country home Perkasie, if I' ; m saying it correctly, Pennsylvania, which it still exists. And it was now the Pearl Buck home and estate and museum. Um, so anyway, my aunt uh, applied for work there and she was hired so she worked for Pearl Buck and for Mr. Walsh as their assistant or secretary really. And she talks about meeting several people, including um Eleanor Roosevelt. Nehru, because Mr. Walsh published all of Nehru' ; s books, I believe he' ; s the first president independent India. And others. So, uh, she has a lot of stories about that life there. And she lived there in Ja, in New York for 15 years. She met her husband there and another Nisei a fellow and they married in Riverside Church and lived there. But due to, I believe her in-laws' ; , illnesses, their elderly Issei parents of her husband, they moved to the Bay Area in 15 years. LK: 00:09:29 My father lived in New York for seven and then moved onto Chicago because a lot of the people that he went to school with, he had a lot of fellow classmates when the University of Washington, um, were, had moved to Chicago. They had, they had found jobs in Chicago and moved from Mindoka, I assume, to Chicago. So after seven years in New York he decided he' ; d move to Chicago and that' ; s how we got here. with regard to my mother, um, she, I believe, had a job lined up in Chicago at Lutheran deaconess hospital, I believe, and left the Gila River Camp to come to Chicago. Um, and also then met people. She was active in JACL, l think she was a secretary and active in the Buddhist, um, League here in Chicago. Um, and after my father came to Chicago, I think it might' ; ve been in, well it would have been seven years from the math is difficult, but um 43, 50. I guess he, he met my mother and they married, I believe in 51 and then I was born in 53. So that' ; s all in Chicago. AT: 00:10:59 And so, um, it sounds like, so your dad got an early leave to go to New York following his sister. Um, did your mother leave early as well? LK: 00:11:12 She left early too. Um, I think it was about the earliest she could. Um, my, my uncle he, he left later, but then he got drafted before the war was up. So you ended up going to, I believe it was Germany, but my mother' ; s brother, yes, Ray Nakagawa, he, um, I don' ; t know as much about it but eventually I can go into that later. But uh, we did learn a little bit more later because we ended up caring for him. AT: 00:11:54 And so I want to, um, I want to take it back to your, your parents can' ; t camp experiences a little bit. So it sounds like they, both of them, they weren' ; t there for too long that they took the early leave as soon as possible. LK: 00:12:16 No, I guess not. Yeah. AT: 00:12:18 And what, what do you know about their experiences in camp? Did they ever share anything with you? LK: 00:12:27 Yeah, well, so my father, they talked about, but really not any of the, I suppose heartbreaking or things that really bothered them. They, they talked about the kind of laughingly talked about--My father, I remember going to the mess hall and eating shark because that was something that the, I guess they decided they would, it was cheap probably. And maybe being a fish they thought that the Japanese liked it. But the thing is, um, my, my, uh, so anyway, that I know you talked about that he, he carved a chest set at Puyallup and it' ; s on exhibit here at the Alphawood, um, exhibit. Ah this chest set it curiously, he carved it out of scrap lumber that was hanging around because they were building out the horse stalls there. They were keeping the people in. And the scrap lumber, I assume was in a pile and he carved it, the board so that it had hinge. LK: 00:13:37 It was two pieces with a hinge in the middle. So I guess he knew he was going to be traveling with this chest set and this chest set has traveled with the art of, Gaman. My father had died by this time, but it has traveled the world and across the US there' ; s a story attached with that. But in any event he did that. He stained it with a shoe polish that he had. Um, he, he, he didn' ; t really talk more about real specific things. But curiously, my aunt, who I take care of in Redmond, Washington, I go out there every few months to look in on her, but she lives in an adult family home in Redmond. So I' ; ve been going through her stuff, her how home is still somewhat intact and I' ; ve been cleaning it out. And so the last time I was there, I guess it was August, I looked through a lot of the photos and I found photos of her sitting in front of the infirmer, infirmary at the Minidoka Camp. LK: 00:14:38 And so I asked her about and she said, yeah, she, uh, served there to assist the nurse. And there was a picture of her with the nurse, uh, in front of it and I was surprised that by that time they were taking photos, I don' ; t know who took the photo or anything that might give you more, more of an idea because maybe when they lightened up a little and they allowed photos that she was still there. Um, but, um, I know that she never really talked much about camp, but I have to say I never really asked them specifically about what life was. When people would come over, have family friends while I was growing up, they would all talk about camp. And every time they' ; re talking about camp, it didn' ; t sound like a horrible place. So, um, as children I think they were shielding us from all of that. LK: 00:15:32 My mother didn' ; t talk a lot about it. I feel she really, it was hard for her. I just felt that because she lost her mother and she was the, um the only female in this, in their unit. Right. The younger brother who was kind of bratty I think, and my grandfather. So, um, I think it was harder on her, um, I found things in or belonging, I' ; ve had to clean up the house and uh, she kept from, she took with her from the, um, home in Del Rey, California, the farm really, to camp and then brought them to Chicago. So there were things that meant a lot to her. AT: 00:16:25 So. Okay, now go back to their experiences of, of leaving camp and eventually ending up in Chicago. Um, so I guess let' ; s start with your mother since she came to Chicago first. Do you know where she ended up settling, which part of the city? LK: 00:16:59 I think initially she lived in that little area that was down by the Gold Coast. I don' ; t know what it' ; s called now or I just know it' ; s closer. I think ironically she lived there and then she lived in Lincoln Park. I always say that my, the, the Japanese settled the places that then became too expensive for them to live. Um, that was not prime real estate at that time, but there was a little enclave I think, of Japanese businesses and stuff. And then she lived, I think, believed in an apartment there now, um, I remember when my mother talked about meeting a woman who had an apartment down the hall and I have a Caucasian woman and they became best friends and, and this woman came from Iowa to kind of seek out her fame and fortune. Um more or less in the big city and when she died we were close to this family. LK: 00:18:02 And when she died was years after my mother, her family was, um, we went to the funeral here and it was in Chicago. The family still lived in Iowa and all farming in a farming community. And they talked about how they looked up to the, this mother, my friend their aunt, as this big city person in the family and she started her own business and so forth. But my mother talked about how they connected very well because they were both from farming communities. And uh, uh, and I have, I remember we went out there to that farm in Iowa and there' ; s photos in our albums. So it was her first, maybe her really first friend that stayed her friend for a long time. Though, she had many friends in the Japanese community, but I don' ; t believe anybody back from Gila River. AT: 00:18:54 And um, I' ; m wondering if this was around Clark and Division? LK: 00:18:59 Yeah, I think so. And then eventually she moved, I believe, to the Webster area. Um, the DePaul University area. And that is actually, that' ; s where my parents first um, their first apartment was on Dickens Street, uh, 842 Dickens. AT: 00:19:18 And so your, when your mother came, she came alone and she was working for a Lutheran hospital? LK: 00:19:29 Yeah, I think it was called Lutheran Deaconess and I don' ; t remember her talking about anybody that she came with from the camp. And I don' ; t even remember her talking about anybody here that was from the Fresno area. There may have been, but not that she was really close with. So she was basically alone. My mother was a very personable, um gregarious person. She, she, she was very humble, but she made friends pretty easily. So it didn' ; t surprise me that soon after she probably connected up with people and became friends. AT: 00:20:10 Did she ever tell you any stories about first coming to Chicago or do you know anything about those years when she was kind of on her own? LK: 00:20:18 Yeah, well, she' ; s one of the, they had those girls club and I think she was of the mademoiselles or ma' ; amselles and there' ; s a picture. We have a picture and they album. Um, and some of these people, you know, we' ; ve stayed in touch with. My mother has this book. They' ; re her books, there' ; s two books. And um, whenever I wonder about a person Issei Nisei, Sansei even I look them up in her book because she kept copious notes on people including like, oh, 1969 had a gallbladder attack. My mother was very fascinated with medicine. She would have probably been at a doctor if she was, if times were different, so, but it' ; s not just medicine. She just was always keeping track of people, always in touch with people by phone or by letter, copious letter writer. So, um, yeah, I, I think um, she eventually she worked there and then eventually, I don' ; t know how it came up, but she worked for the University of Illinois Medical School. And uh, for the head of the Department of Pathology, I' ; m trying to remember his name, and she talked about him a lot and she talked, she loved that job I think. LK: 00:21:36 And she, um, she' ; s talked about how she quit the job when I was, she was ready to give birth to me, so, but she eventually did more work and I can go into that later in Chicago. But um, yeah, so her early days we' ; re doing that in that book by Alice Burrata. Do you know what the collection of photos of my mother? Yes. My mother had died and the book came out. I know Alice and I bought the book and I was looking through it and there was a picture of my mother and she was in, it was a very early picture. So she must' ; ve, it was, must have been shortly after she got to Chicago and there must' ; ve been some Buddhist, um, conference in Chicago and there were a couple of, I believe Buddhist ministers and the picture and some other young people. My mother was one of them. She wasn' ; t identified, but I think the group was identifying or something. So I knew it was Buddhist group. Um, I was shocked she never talked about that. And um, I don' ; t think she thought to talk about it really. I don' ; t think it was anything she didn' ; t want to talk about. Uh, there were a lot of things like that about my mother. I think that because she didn' ; t really brag about anything and it' ; s sort of matter of fact about things. So, um, I guess that' ; s all I can recall right now about her early life. Yeah. AT: 00:23:00 And then your father, he came a bit later, was that late 40s? LK: 00:23:11 Uh, yeah, I think he came again. It was seven years after he went to New York, so I think it was like late 49, 50 or something. And um, so he came, he arrived. I don' ; t know the circumstances of, except that I understood he missed his friends. It could have been that my aunt got married and then, you know, they were moving on and then he really didn' ; t, he wanted to come and see his friends. So he came and AT: 00:23:35 His friends were in Chicago? LK: 00:23:38 Uh, in Chicago and, and my father was one of these kind of pretty laid back. Uh, so when he was in Japan, he and my aunt told him, you better leave because their friend had told her, him her that, you know, getting kind of hot on the, on the Pacific front and probably might want to leave. So my aunt had left, but children, you better leave soon and he' ; s an I, I' ; m having a lot of fun here. LK: 00:24:05 I' ; m not going to any of your friends out there. And he was working for a Chinese merchant and it' ; s kind of interesting and he was also doing a lot of um, you' ; d like to play poker and he would win and all this. And um, but he needed some money to come back and he sold his shoes and his typewriter. My, it was not really his typewriter with my aunt' ; s typewriter. They dragged from Seattle on the ship to Japan, so he sold the typewriter and my aunt' ; s typewriter to get a ticket back on that ship to come back to Chicago. Well, I mean to uh, the States, it would have been in Seattle, so he was sort of happy go lucky kind of guy. So I guess just maybe on a lark he could have said I' ; m coming to Chicago. So he did. I don' ; t know where he lived. LK: 00:24:54 He worked. He had a degree in business administration and the University of Washington. Yeah. Now I know when, I don' ; t know when he got this job, but he had this job when I was born with, with this company, North American litho, and it was a pulp printer and he was kind of an estimator of job, job estimator for ah jobs for the lithographer. And I think that was, I have vague recollections of where it was. I assume it' ; s down towards downtown somewhere and I used to go there sometimes as a child with him, but I believe my, they may, my parents may have met at some dance, Nisei dance or something, but I don' ; t really know. And it' ; s funny when you, you don' ; t really ask these things to someone and if they don' ; t tell you and even if they did as a kid, it doesn' ; t usually mean a lot. Um, so they met and they married at. Um. LK: 00:26:00 Oh, I do remember though. I found this. My father loved dancing as did my mother. And, and I think before he met my mother, he took lessons in Chicago at the Arthur Murray dance studio and he has a dance card I found it and he had a passed a number of dances and, and then he, um, I found some letter he wrote to the dance instructor that he had to take some time off. So that' ; s basically what I know about his early life. So when they married, they married at a Graham Taylor Chapel, which is at the University of Chicago, which I think a lot of Japanese married there. And curiously, my fath, my husband' ; s brother and his wife married there many years later. Um, but so they married there and then, um, honeymoon didn' ; t at Mackinac Island. And then when they came back, I remember my mother' ; s name, my father said to her, well, I guess I have to look for a job. So I guess he didn' ; t have that job with North American Litho, now that I think about it when they were married and my mother thought he had the job. So whatever job she thought he had, he didn' ; t have it by the time they went on their honeymoon and then maybe he got that job with the lithographer after that. AT: 00:27:28 And you said you weren' ; t sure where he settled when he first came to Chicago? LK: 00:27:31 No, I' ; m not. No, but I think the answer lies somewhere in the house that I' ; m cleaning out in Albany Park, which they purchased in 1963, um in Chicago here, however, um, it, it' ; s full of stuff. My sister, my late sister lived in that house and uh, so I' ; ve inherited this house, which I' ; m cleaning out, but I grew up in, part of my childhood was living in that house. So I' ; ve been finding things and I, I believe I, I, there might be some information there. AT: 00:28:09 And so you were born in 53 when your parents were in the Lincoln Park area. Um, do you do you, how long were you all there for? LK: 00:28:20 Yes. Um, so I lived there until I was about five years old or so. They moved from there to 1414 West School Street, which is a, well Lakeview but Wrigleyville now. And again, it' ; s one of those funny things that we lived there before it became popular and unaffordable. So we lived in a two flat that was owned by a Japanese, a couple, the Tomiyamas and uh, they were, I suppose they were Issei, but they were, they had children, but the children were older than us. They were ah, I think the youngest was. LK: 00:29:03 Well, I started kindergarten there, so the youngest of those children may have been almost out of grade school. Um, so we lived in this place and um, my sister, by that time, my sister, my sister was born in Lincoln Park on Dickinson, so she would, she was three years younger, so she must' ; ve been two years old, when I was five. We moved in and um, my parents this, this little school in our district was Hamilton, great school, but my mother felt it was, it was about a mile walk and my mother was concerned about this and somehow they decided that they' ; d like us to go to Hawthorne Elementary. So we went to Hawthorne. Um, and the funny thing is you had to be in the district and, and so I don' ; t know how my mother met these people, but they lived in the district. They were a, a Caucasian couple and they had children and they said, well, why don' ; t you use our address as your address? LK: 00:30:11 So we used this address. I had to memorize this address. He gave me a lot of anxiety. Probably I' ; ve stricken it from my memory because it, I can' ; t remember, but I could probably walk you to this address. I think it was down on school street. So we, I started going to school in Hawthorne at Hawthorne Elementary, um, about, uh, think about three years, maybe it was an eight. I was eight years old in third grade or something. We found out that we were, um, didn' ; t have this address because it was another address we are using. I don' ; t know why my parents did this and uh, I do recall a spraining my ankle, maybe I was six years old and they had to call my parents and my father and my mother had called my father to come home and get me because I think my sister was an infant or I don' ; t recall what it was and she couldn' ; t leave the house. LK: 00:31:09 So my father was trying to get over to the school in time to pick me up. But I heard this very well. The gym teacher had me holding me at the street thinking maybe we' ; ll, he' ; ll take me home. And I was really, really, really scared because I was going to go home to this family that didn' ; t look like my family at all. And um, my father came. It was sort of like a superhero kind of thing. He, he drove up, got me and we went home. So we got through that. But by third grade, um, my sister' ; s in kindergarten I guess, and they said, um, they called me to the office, the principal' ; s office had to leave in the middle of the class in midday and my sister was sitting in there too, so she was called out and we were told go home and I mean, years later I thought about this. LK: 00:32:09 I thought this is pretty cool, but it' ; s also, I don' ; t know if there' ; s any kind of racial thing attached and what not, but it was really, really strange. I could go home with someone if I had a broken ankle, but when I found out that there was some weird stuff and I agree, it was weird. Uh, they told us to go home in midday. So I took my sister by the hand and we walked home alone. Then you' ; ll know crossing guards, right? AT: 00:32:38 You were still about about eight? LK: 00:32:41 Yeah. Yeah. And by this time my brother is seven years younger. So my brother wants to have been an infant and he was at home with my mother and there' ; s no phone with you being, I mean I wouldn' ; t even know that they didn' ; t even call my parents, they didn' ; t call my mother. And because when we came home and rang the bell, I don' ; t even think I had a key and my mother opened the door and she was shocked. LK: 00:33:09 And then I told her eight years old, I told her what happened. I, you know, I can' ; t remember what they told me. I just knew enough, mother knew enough that you know, what had happened and then she tried to get us to finish out. I think it was towards the end of the school year, so I think she went to school and try to get us to let please could they just finish off the school year, but they wouldn' ; t. So we had to go to this Hawth, ah Hamilton. And so we had to walk about a mile to school to this Hamilton. I don' ; t know how my mother managed it with my brother. Was it pretty hard? I think. I think she found, I don' ; t really know what happened and we went to Hamilton and we actually, I have to say I liked it better because if the principal was nice. Now how did I know the principal was nice, it' ; s probably because the principal chewed us out at the other school. And I do remember my sister and we used to call the principal at Hawthorne, a hotdog and the principal at Hamilton kind of like a hamburger could he was round and smaller and that guy over there wish tall and thin. And um, we matriculated into the school and um, you know, I think it was a little more laid back there. LK: 00:34:28 I don' ; t know, there' ; s something how you, it' ; s funny how you feel things differently. So that' ; s how, you know, went to school there. And then eventually my parents purchased this house in Albany Park in 63 and we moved there, um, and 63. And um, how much closer was Hawthorne to your home? LK: 00:34:52 Um, I think it must' ; ve been a bit closer. We had to cross, the problem was crossing a busy street, Southport. But you know, it' ; s funny because I always talk about, I have a friend who I talked about maybe doing the walk because she hasn' ; t lived in Chicago all the time now, but she and I were Brownies together and we used to walk and she went to Hawthorne, so we were going to do the walk, meaning from my house to the, to the school and then over to where we think Brownies was and then over to her house. And um, uh, so I' ; m thinking it, it. Well, it, it' ; s, it' ; s not as far as Clark, um, what is that street Sedgwick perhaps? Is that a north west street? North, south. North, south, yeah. So I think it' ; s Sedgwick to basically Southport. That' ; s the distance. And then the other school would have been from School Street, which is about two blocks east of Ashland to Cornelia, Cornelia and Ashland or so I think it' ; s further how much far over there. I don' ; t know, it probably isn' ; t that much, but for some reason my parents or my mother, I feel I have a feeling that was my mother' ; s idea. Why is that? LK: 00:36:28 Um, my mother would talk to lot of people and get ideas and she was always very open and kind of imagined to inventive. Remember was very inventive. Um, my father was more quiet sort and working and all that. He probably wasn' ; t communicating as much. As far as your recollection of Lakeview. Can you describe just that community? A little bit. Sure. I liked it. I had a um, uh, well, yeah. So it' ; s, um, uh, was it just an ah Chicago neighborhood. I used to, we had people on the street, kids on the street that there were no Asians, no Japanese, certainly, um, and uh, mostly German. And the funny thing is I didn' ; t realize how significant that was until I went to Germany as an adult old. I' ; ve been to Germany five times business and pleasure and a company with my husband. And uh, when I went to Germany first I like languages and I thought, well, I think I' ; ll study a little German. LK: 00:37:41 And I was surprised how I could pick it up and I had a German friend in Chicago at the time and we were speaking. I would practice with him. And he said, wow, you' ; re picking it up. Well, I think if you lived in Germany, pick it up quickly. And I said, well, why? I studied French, a little bit of Japanese, the Japanese, because my parents sent me to Japanese language school and uh, some Russian and I read German was not a language that I felt comfortable with, but somehow this him and then I, it occurred to me all my friends at that formative age or German as their parents were German and so they were going to school. Um, they were going, they were speaking German when they would go home, when the kids to go home to each other' ; s home. And I' ; d hear German all the time. LK: 00:38:34 And the other funny thing is I do a lot of um, why do a lot of figure skating for many years. And I was at the rink some years ago, six years ago and sitting, putting my skates on and there' ; s friends that I made friends. We' ; re both were the same age and we. But I didn' ; t know that. And we started chatting and one thing led to another and it turned out we went to Hawthorne together. She but what we' ; re baby boomers, so at that time there were lots of kids so there' ; d be two or three kindergarten classes or whatnot, so she was in the other kindergarten class, so I didn' ; t really wasn' ; t really in a class with her, but we put things two things together because her father is German and she would ice skate that school, like all schools would make an ice skating rink on the premises. LK: 00:39:24 And that' ; s what you did at winter time. That' ; s where I learned how to ice cream to five years old and she was, I was probably ice skating with her and her father was the only adult there. Standing around in a big overcoat was German. He ice skated and I remembered him. That' ; s weird that he or she is Heidi. So I said to Heidi, uh, you know, I had a lot of friends. It' ; s a German girls and boys I guess too, but I remembered this particular, some German girls in my class, they were always very quiet and she said, well, that' ; s because we didn' ; t speak English. She said when we came, we went to school and were just plopped down in kindergarten and we didn' ; t speak English, so that' ; s funny because that reminded me of going to Hawthorne and there were Japanese kids in our class, Japanese American kids, and we were all sitting LK: 00:40:17 the kindergarten teacher put us in a round and round table, all the other kids who were at long tables. And there were about four of us at this round table and I took this to mean that it was wonderful that we' ; re so special. We got the round table and everyone else had to sit on the long tables. I don' ; t know what it meant. I never felt anything bad. Anything strange about this teacher. I think she was quite lovely. I thought, um, but she, maybe she put us there because she thought we would relate to each other, but oddly it was a German people who couldn' ; t speak and they should have been at the roundtable because they only spoke German and they probably would have felt more comfortable. We felt. But she could tell us who we were. So she put us at the round table. LK: 00:41:03 Were you friends with other Japanese American students? Um, yes. Yeah, yeah. We became friends. The other weird thing is that, um, so a lot of the communities or through the churches, right. And My mother, so my father was raised a Christian, um, and I, I just went to the church that my grandparents went to in Seattle because I go back there. It' ; s a long story about that. But anyway, I know where my father, he, he probably went to. Well, my aunt, I know went to the, I think it' ; s the Episcopalian church there, but the other church, Japanese Christian church, my grandparents went to and maybe my aunt, my grandma, my un, father, excuse me. So they were raised Christian. My mother was raised Buddhist. So when we were born, when I was born, my mother, I think felt, that we should belong to a church, but she was very conflicted. LK: 00:41:55 So she ended up taking us to like Tri C or some of these Japanese Christian churches. And then I got to be friends also with some of these kids because I think that most of the kids in this class were Christian. The Japanese Christian. Uh, subsequently we ended up going to the Buddhist temple, the Chicago Midwest, Buddhist Temple of Chicago when I was more, um, when we moved to Albany Park because I think my mother ran into someone who said you should be coming to the Buddhist temple. We' ; re going to see what was going. And then even more curiously, my father lost, well it' ; s not curious, but my father had a degenerative eye disease. He had to quit work in the sixties and my mother had to go to work and she was very concerned because my brother was quite young in Albany Park we were living there. It' ; s very predominantly Jewish neighborhood. LK: 00:42:43 So the neighbor across the street said, you know, they' ; re looking for a secretary for the, for the rabbi at Temple Beth Israel in Albany Park. So my mother worked, ended up getting a job there because it' ; s very close. And she worked for the Jewish temple for 15 years. So we became, we didn' ; t convert to Judaism or anything like that, but we had a lot of Jew, Jewish culture in our family in Albany Park. But um, as a result of that, in prior to that, my mother was, she worked as a tupperware lady and was a very successful one. She had like awards, so my mother wasn' ; t, when you, the question about having Japanese friends kind of triggered my thoughts about who we were friends with and who might parents were friends with and my mother kind of crossed cultures quite a bit. Um, so back to Lakeview. LK: 00:43:40 Yeah, I do remember it was very German, but I never felt out of place. My friends on the block, none of them were Japanese, but the family that owned the, a two flat it was actually sort of a three flat because they had converted the basement into an apartment and then those people down in the basement apartment were Japanese or Japanese too Japanese national, married to a Japanese American. And they had children that were younger than us while they were more my sister' ; s age. So, um, those were the other people in our neighborhood. A immediate block. And you mentioned going to a Japanese school as well. When and where? Yeah, that was at that time too. So my mother, I think a somehow felt that we should go to Japanese school, learned some language that would be me, my sister, I don' ; t believe had the pleasure of going and I' ; ll say, so we didn' ; t go to actually a school. LK: 00:44:42 We had a tutor so we were semi, there was another family, we' ; re going to this, uh, the Kato' ; s, we were going to this woman' ; s apartment in Lakeview area. Um, I think it was off of Addison and we' ; d walk over there and uh, have, be tutored. But the thing about this tutor, I remember she had senbei uh, that' ; s, I always remember food and that I really liked that. And then we learned these words and write, but we didn' ; t have any real communication. We didn' ; t do a lot of conversation. So, um, and then afterwards they go to the store and my friend and we' ; d get pumpkin seeds across the street. So I just remember for that kind of stuff and I didn' ; t last very long. How long were you enrolled there? I don' ; t believe I was in there very long. I don' ; t know if it was one or two years. I don' ; t know what happened. I don' ; t know if I was a lousy student, so my parents, mother said uh forget it, or my mother, they didn' ; t have the money to, you know, because as I mentioned, my father started losing this sight and eventually had to quit work. So I didn' ; t really know all this. My father had to quit driving about the time when we were in Lake, I think Lakeview Um, LK: 00:46:07 yeah, I think or even before that he couldn' ; t drive and my parents had this old Oldsmobile. Well it' ; s like from the fifties. So my mother had to learn how to drive and she was fine with that. My mother' ; s very athletic too, so I think she didn' ; t mind learning how to drive, so she ended up doing a lot of the driving from that point on. Um, but yeah, so the school was, I don' ; t remember much except I don' ; t even remember the name of the lady. AT: 00:46:39 Were there other ways that you see now that you were connected to Japanese heritage while growing up? LK: 00:46:50 Besides like my grandfather. So my grandparents died when I was probably around five, both of them had died by the time I was about five or six. Um, these are the grandparents on my father' ; s side. My grandfather, the one who was a chef, he contracted tuberculosis at one point in time. I don' ; t know whether he had to leave the camp or when it was, but he had, he was in a sanatorium for tuberculosis and lost his hearing. I remember him vaguely in the house, in the apartment, LK: 00:47:30 in Lakeview because I would have to show him things. My grandmother had died in Seattle, but my father went out for that funeral and uh, but I was pretty young so I didn' ; t really learn a lot of Japanese uh from them or uh culture. Um, but my grandfather, my mother' ; s father lived til the mid seventies and he, uh, I think he died when he was 80, 88 or 89 and he would write. He learned how to, when he came to the states, I believe he went to Selma High School and he got a degree, a high school degree. And uh, he had beautiful handwriting. So he was able to write to me and speak somewhat in English. And he would take trips to Chicago on the Santa Fe railroad cars. He loved the Santa Fe. AT: 00:48:34 Where was he living? LK: 00:48:35 He was, he, after the war he went to, he left the camp and went back to, it was Selma, California, which is a little larger, small town outside of Del, next to Del Rey, where they were from and outside of Fresno. LK: 00:48:50 And he eventually settled there in a house with my uncle who after he left the war and went back to, um, you know, after he was discharged from the army. What was he doing for work? Did he continue farming? My grandfather I think basically ended up doing some gardening and for someone. Um, but he didn' ; t do any more of the grape farming. And my grandfather, my uncle that was my grandfather, my uncle, when he went back to the West Coast, uh, started a welding business with a Nisei partner. So they had this welding, a Muffler n' ; Welding business in Selma. And that' ; s what he retired from. Um, he, they told him they had, when they went back to ah Selma, there was a family there who took in, uh, they had, they had an established business like a grocery business, the Tori' ; s before the war and they had property. So when people came out of the war and they went back to that area, their friends and these were close friends with my grandfather and grandmother. They had a lot of the people stayed in this property until they could find a place to stay. I got the impression it was kind of like a warehouse or something. Um, and so that' ; s where they moved. And then my uncle and grandfather lived together. My grandfather LK: 00:50:29 would take the bus and I don' ; t think he even drove after that. Um, I remember my mother saying that after you wanted the camp, I guess is one thing I remember he turned completely white. His hair combed, turned completely white. So my grandfather, back to your question about heritage and Japanese, uh, he would send things. He would send things all the time from Japan, from, from the um, uh, Fresno area who does little house they had was a, my mother called it a shack. I mean, it basically had like a attached outhouse and I stayed there and um, and when I visited in college and um, my brother and sister too, and he, he, um, he had all these Japanese things he would do. He was, I could see how my mother got his inventive things because. So my uncle liked to fish my, I always say my father, my father' ; s side, my aunt who' ; s still living, she' ; s very liberal and lived in the Bay Area, all these lives and she loved the sea otter and my uncle hated the sea otter because the sea otter ate the abalone and he used to like beautiful fish for abalone and if you know people that live in the Central Valley that tend to be kind of more a red neck or more, uh, conservative, put it that way. LK: 00:51:54 So my uncle was going out to, he would go to this moral bay where the sea otter, they were quite prolific there at one time and go there. So we' ; re the abalone. So he would fish for these abalone and bring them back. And at that time they were huge. I have a lot of these shelves and that if you look at an abalone shell, it' ; s a univalve, you know, it' ; s like a snail and um, when the muscle comes out of the abalone, there' ; s holes for the muscles were held, so now you have a shell with holes and my uncle and grandfather would take these abalone shells and my grandpa, you know, from my uncle' ; s fishing expeditions and put them in at various places in this garden that he converted into kind of a small raisin farm. Um, and they had trees because everybody in California those days would have fruit trees and apple. There were orange trees I think, and walnut trees. And he had these grapevines and he would use these abalone shells as a way to irrigate because if you put them at strategic places in the garden, you could put the hose into the abalone shell and then the holes would spread out the water. So he would do things like that. And a lot of the stuff I think he was doing otherwise too was very Japanese. And when I visited him he one time-- so I would cook. And when I was there, LK: 00:53:26 especially when I was younger, I' ; d make him pie or whatever. And one day I was looking for this pot, if you then want to have him there, my uncle was a bachelor so that in my grandfather, the two of them are living there and they don' ; t have a lot of things that my mother had would have in the kitchen back home. So I was looking for this one pot and I couldn' ; t find it. And my grandfather, we had this interesting way of communicating. It' ; s broken English and whatnot. And so I kept asking him for the pot and he said, " ; Oh, okay." ; And then he starts going into the, into the yard, and I was following him saying, " ; Grandpa, grandpa the pot, the pot, he goes way back into the yard, back in this place where there' ; s dirt and he starts digging. I think, oh my, I don' ; t know what' ; s going on. LK: 00:54:09 And he pulls out the pot. So here' ; s the pot. So he takes it back to the kitchen to wash it off. And then he goes to the bookshelf, he pulls out a Japanese book. It' ; s all in Japanese. And I think it was like, like how to do anything in your house kind of how to book. And he opens it up and there' ; s a picture of a Japanese woman in a kimono in the garden with a pot. So it turned out that the pot, if you put, of course it' ; s bacteria and all this stuff in the dirt, right? So if you have a really a pot that has a lot of stuff on it, I' ; m like, you can' ; t get off with Brillo or whatever. You don' ; t want to to stick it in the garden and put it in dirt and after awhile you' ; ll, you' ; ll come out clean. So years later I hear my husband, you know, had the, um, I know he cooked something on the barbecue grill. LK: 00:55:09 I said, put it in the vegetable gardening. It was dirt and I said, just dig a hole and put it in there. And it cleans it off. So we do this from time to time if it' ; s during the summer. So those are kind of Japanese things under, but I don' ; t know. Um, he would send us books. And I know my mother had various things she would do, she would be one of the Japanese Nisei women who would make all the New Year' ; s dinner feast. AT: 00:55:38 And when she would cook for you, these meals, were you eating a lot of Japanese food? LK: 00:55:45 She was kind of a, uh, she, uh, yeah. So until you get older that you realize, oh, we didn' ; t do that. So a lot of my Japanese friends, Sansei friends, they' ; d say, oh, I can' ; t go a day without rice or I can' ; t go, and I had an Italian friend who said I can' ; t go three days without pasta. So then I' ; m hearing this from my Japanese friends LK: 00:56:03 Oh, I couldn' ; t go. But my mother didn' ; t make rice all the time, but uh, she didn' ; t. But then she had certain things she always made rice with and certain things she didn' ; t. And as a result I kind of liked rice but, but I wasn' ; t a lover of rice. I like potatoes more and um, but she would like kind of make hamburgers kind of with and then make a pot of rice. And I always thought, why can' ; t we have him with bread? You know? But then she would sometimes make hamburgers, but it was sort of like, I' ; ll make hamburgers with bread, with French fries because you make our own French fries. I' ; ll make hamburger patties that you put, shoyu on with rice. So she had things like that. But um, yeah, she was, I think it was harder on her too because my father was from Seattle and until I got older I didn' ; t realize, wow, the, the Japanese from Seattle, are very different from the Japanese, from central California or from California for that matter. LK: 00:57:01 So, you know, landlocked central California, you don' ; t get a lot of fish. So my mother, she would cook fish but not as much as they cooked fish in Seattle. In fact, my grandmother fished. She would go into the Puget Sound. She goes, she was also pretty bold. And when in a rowboat with my grandfather and fish. So. AT: 00:57:24 As far as um shopping for food and things like that. Do you have memories of Japanese grocery stores? LK: 00:57:36 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. My mother would go both to Star Market or York Superfoods. I think it was called York Superfoods. Um, but mainly to Yorks, because my mother, I think the husband, I believe that' ; s Helen Fukuda was married. She was married to Tom Fukuda. But I think they were divorced eventually. But Tom Fukuda owned this gas. He owned that gas standard gas station. There' ; s a photo of it. It' ; s where Ginos East is. LK: 00:58:09 Do you know where it is? It was a pretty strategic location. Again, another place that would cost a lot to own now, but I think he owned that property. My mother would go over there and get gas and I think they go back to somehow California or the or maybe Japan somehow. So my mother would patronize those establishments. And Helen was a real character. I remember going in there and uh, there was even at my husband, I got married in the seventies and we would go there with my mother and together and he was amazed because she would have in a barrel, you know, tofu floating around. And they used to put, choose to put the tofu in a plastic bag, always reminded me of going to the fish store, the where you would get an aquarium fish because they put it in a plastic bag and she would put it in the plastic bag and tied in and I think in a Chinese food container or something. We' ; d get tofu there. LK: 00:59:07 We' ; d get various things. She would frequently give my mother the egg sack from a fish for my dad to bake. My mother liked to bake it. My dad liked it and she' ; d bake it for my dad. We' ; d never eat that. It stunk too much. Um, uh, various things, botan ame, is that what it' ; s called? That Japanese candy in the box. The sticky yellow, red candy with the prize inside and the, and then the loose caramels. But usually we like that one better. Um, so yeah, I love that store because it was so homespun. AT: 00:59:49 Um, and so have you been in Chicago since your childhood? LK: 00:59:54 Oh yes, all my life. Um, briefly studied away. Uh, but really I went to, I went to. So I went to three grammar, grammar schools and eventually I went to the Halogen and, and finished grammar school there and then went to Roosevelt High in Albany Park. LK: 01:00:11 So always schools in Chicago and CPS. And then, um, I went to Circle, went to the University of Illinois at Chicago, um, for my undergraduate and I graduated in 75. And so I met my husband. Eventually I worked in Chicago and Northwestern various I went to, I worked at Marshall Fields that worked at Jewell Food. Know I worked, I worked for Nobi' ; s gift shop, which is another Japanese establishment. And my good friend Janet is the daughter of the Mr. and Mrs Matsumoto started that, a gift shop on Harlem Avenue in Elmwood Park. So I worked a lot. And uh, eventually, uh, after about, I guess it was 1979, started a graduate school at UIC and I got my PhD in 84. And then I in that, I think as an Undergrad I studied in Colorado one summer for Rocky Mountain Biological Life I studied in Woods Hole. But I basically lived in Chicago all my life with my husband. AT: 01:01:25 Did you continue involvement with any Japanese American churches or. LK: 01:01:30 Yeah. So when my father died and my mother is still living, my mother felt that he should have a Buddhist, a kind of ceremony. So they, the ceremony was at the, um, all the while, they, uh, the, the funeral home in Lakeview on Belmont and Greenwood, Greenwood Greenfield. Uh, and uh, so it was a Dr., uh Reverend Kobose, I think did the ceremony or was it Reverend, maybe Ashikaga, but Kobose' ; s were still there. They came and, uh, as did their son. So they were all. That was in 95' ; and then we went onto, um, then. So when he died, my aunt, my mother had to [inaudible], then I went to this kind of connected back with the Buddhist Temple Chicago since I haven' ; t really been going too much, but, uh, also got active in the j, some of what with the Japanese, JASC, Japanese American Service Committee. My mother was active, kind of. She, she loved them and she would contribute. But when my father became more disabled, she had to stay home all the time so she couldn' ; t do as much. AT: 01:02:50 Why is that involvement something that you think maybe your mother valued and that you felt? LK: 01:02:58 Um, I, to tell you the truth. I think I really pulled away. Not, not that I said I don' ; t want anything to do with the Japanese community, but I just got involved in so many other things. I, um, I didn' ; t really do a lot in my. I had Japanese American generally have Japanese American friends and very close to, um, high school friends. Some grade school. Um, but, um, they, uh, I think it' ; s interesting, those friends from high school, they aren' ; t also involved in community so much. I guess our lives let us elsewhere and it wasn' ; t until I got back in, my parents died that I started to kind of get back to the community. I think I missed some of that. Might my mother died. It might be in four years. My husband who' ; s Caucasian and I lost our four parents in four years' ; time, before we were 45 years old. LK: 01:03:58 So it' ; s kind of an early time for one to lose their parents, all of their parents in fact, and I think I needed to be around Nisei and then I learned, I have to say I learned a lot more about my Japanese heritage by coming back to the Japanese community or just coming to the Japanese community as an adult. Um, but I, I think the Soka Society at the Buddhist Temple in Chicago has been just great and helped me quite a bit. Then at the end they' ; re dwindling, I will say, and either moving away or passing on. Um, but I, I, I, that' ; s basically what I feel personally. And then I' ; ve learned a lot about things through Alphawood, here, I mean, I learned so much from this exhibit and the tours that I' ; ve taken, um, and doing my own research now. So I think it' ; s really important learning about myself as well as my parents, my family. LK: 01:05:01 And so, so it sounds like a lot of your, um, your interest both in kind of the community but also the history, it sounds relatively recent. Um, have you, um, can you tell me a little bit about how you think, um, maybe the incarceration experience and or the experience of resettlement, um, are there any ways that you' ; ve seen, um, kind of like an intergenerational impact of these experiences play out in your own life? LK: 01:05:55 Yeah, I can see how, so on the sad side, I, I can see how through this Alphawood exhibit as well as the art of Gaman and other and visiting the National Japanese American Museum. And, and in more recent years people sharing their stories and I see how my, how much hurt my parents probably suffered through and how difficult it was for them and coming from poverty. It really is, especially in my mother' ; s case. I think um, how much it impacted the way that they raised us, even though they didn' ; t talk about it but what they wanted for us. And you know, I had lots of, um, I think my mother and I had very similar, had similar personalities and energy level and, and we, we clashed quite a bit, we argued quite a bit. And, uh, and then my mother died rather suddenly what happened is she had a fall, fell downstairs in the home and ended up being a, going out, having surgery to remove pressure on her brain. LK: 01:07:08 She never really recovered from that and died. So it was really an accident that took her life and uh, it was so sudden. And, and it was when I, again, when I, um, it was right after I had started on the recovery from breast cancer. So it was a very traumatic time. And at that time too, my mother was taking care of my uncle who had Alzheimer' ; s disease in California, so she wasn' ; t home. She was going out to California a lot. So I didn' ; t really get a chance in those last year or two before she died to really see her much even and talk to her. And so I didn' ; t have a lot of answers. And now that I see what I learn more, I see how, yeah, some of the choices she made, some of the things she did was because of that and, and how she passed on these things. LK: 01:08:01 Um entered through the generations and uh, I wish I knew more about what happened to my parents, grandparents in Japan and how they came to. So I think we carry a legacy with us generations. Um, but I also think on the positive side that once you recognize some of these things for what they are fundamentally, um, one can heal and address so I don' ; t have children and I, I realize I think too children, my husband also, not to go into any detail, but he had a traumatic childhood and I think both. That was one of the reasons we both didn' ; t have children, although we really, um really focused a lot on our careers and I for a long time I thought we did that to avoid it. Um, we did that and that' ; s why we didn' ; t. But I think it was also we knew we couldn' ; t do it deep, deep down to have children. LK: 01:08:59 I think it was very we were still suffering a lot from what we didn' ; t know that was handed down and to also we were caretakers to our family and my father was losing his sight. He, for much of my childhood, even though, um, when he started quit driving, um, he couldn' ; t see what he constantly had bruises all over his legs and he was walking into things. So we, we learned not to put knives on the side and we learned how to deal with the person who was not abled. And my father, my husband had an, a disabled parent as well. So I think as caretakers and also through what, well, World War II generation, you know, parents and um specifically my parents gen, um the incarceration and my grandparents, um, it had an effect. So we' ; re not, we don' ; t have children to teach, but we do both of us and myself. LK: 01:10:08 I do a lot of mentoring. I, um, I most recently had decided I think I really want to focus too on really Japanese and Asian women because I do a lot of women' ; s work, volunteer work through my professional work and a young people especially, um, generations of young, not just the millennials, which would be probably my children' ; s generation, but the ones in between too the Gen xers and stuff. So I think that' ; s how I' ; m trying to use what I' ; ve learned about my own situation to try to heal and stop sort of the bleeding in a way, you know, the festering and I think a lot of what the Japanese have gone through, the Japanese Americans, the Japanese in America, have gone through, can resonate to other immigrants, other to women, I think women and as women we suffer a lot as the caretakers, as the family members. So that' ; s the way I think this exhibit has also moved things along for me. AT: 01:11:20 And if you could leave some kind of legacy or message yourself for generations to come, what do you hope, to know or understand? LK: 01:11:39 I think um, to really embrace the gray that things are not black and white and that' ; s certainly true racial, but I don' ; t mean it so much racially or I need it more in terms of extreme, right and left conservative, liberal, Black or white. However way you want to describe the extreme. The gray, a, the one thing that I' ; ve found because it really, I never have been a black and white present, been in the gray, but that' ; s really hard to be in the great when people want to be in the black and white, they want to peg you. They want to. But that' ; s a kind of a gift that I had. I think I' ; m able to see that. And uh, so I think being in the gray, it makes you see the Black and fight for what they are and help bring the white to the gray and the Black to the gray in the middle. LK: 01:12:37 Uh, not to say that middle of the road is the way it should go because I know people that say that uh I' ; m not, I don' ; t do that. I don' ; t do this. Not that at all. It' ; s just an attitude to just be. It' ; s an open minded attitude because if you' ; re there then you' ; ll see something that will peak your interest. And I think to be there you need to be, well certainly open minded, but you need to have a lot of exposure. So you need to put yourself out there and be in uncomfortable places with people that maybe you find uncomfortable to be with or maybe people outside a stuff you' ; ve been doing otherwise all your life. So to this point, um. So my sister had died. She now almost to this day, she died two years ago and um, prior to that, um, things were happening and my sister was suffering from a long illness, cancer, and I was suffering quite a bit. LK: 01:13:40 I' ; m from worry of her and so all these other things that happened in my life. And I, um, my husband and I decided to go to Second City to improv and we grow and we liked it so much. We, we continued it and we finished the improv training center and then we continued on and we did. We just finished actually last week we finished a year of their program and acting and did a lot of storytelling or I' ; d done a lot writing. And my husband was taking film. Now we' ; ve, it, this is, we' ; re not, we' ; re both artists at heart. We learned because we both, that' ; s how we bonded. We were both artistic and we love art, but we' ; re both, our professions are not that way. My husband is a planetree, and I am a biologist, a businessperson and um, but the thing is that, that opened up my acceptance of me and I' ; ve gone back to my art which I left. LK: 01:14:42 I left at a younger age because I think it was so emotional and difficult and it turns out my family is very artistic and in I found many, many things art in music in this house. Even my grandmother was an art, musician, the one who died when my mother was 13. So I think to be open and to be explored exploring life will enable you to, if you have any things to meet, more needs to heal, help heal that as well as be a very, a great contributor to society and you pass it on a little to the next generation, whatever that whoever that is and then it doesn' ; t necessarily mean it' ; s Japanese. But I think the Japanese Americans can get a lot from that. And I actually feel I' ; m very grateful to be a Japanese person. Um, because it, I think we have a lot there that enables us to do that. AT: 01:15:43 Thank you so much again for coming in and for sharing. Before we wrap up, is there anything that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? LK: 01:15:52 Oh, no, I just, I' ; m really happy that in my lifetime there' ; s been this opportunity to learn more this much and uh, I think, uh, yeah, I, I just think thank you for this opportunity. AT: 01:16:11 Thank you so much Linda. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KawanoLinda20171101.xml KawanoLinda20171101.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kawano, Linda (11/1/2017)
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2017-11-01
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
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Keaveney, Hiroki
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/1/2017 Keaveney, Hiroki (9/1/2017) 1:20:19 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Keaveney, Hiroki Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307907161 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307907161?h=9a9789f036" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 Thank you. Could start by you stating your name. Hiroki Keaveney: 00:00:04 Yeah. My name is Hiroki Kimiko Keaveney. Um, yeah, my middle name is my grandma' ; s name, and then Hiroki I recently changed my name to, um, yeah. AT: 00:00:15 And, and where are you from? HK: 00:00:18 Uh, I grew up in Ohio, but I was born out in California and I' ; ve been living on the west coast, um, in different cities for the past like eight years or so. And recently came back to the Midwest. AT: 00:00:31 Okay, and just for context, can you help me out with where you were in Ohio and then California and when you came to Chicago? HK: 00:00:40 Yeah, so I was born in LA area. Um, when I was four we moved out to Ohio. I lived there till I was 18. I went to school in Seattle. And then, um, I moved to LA to be near my grandparents actually cause I wanted to learn, um, my history, cause I grew up in the Midwest with my Irish family, but I didn' ; t really know anything about my Japanese American family. I knew we were part of the internment, but I, I mean, you know how it is. So I honestly didn' ; t really know the full story. And so really the choice of moving there was to record their stories, to learn it from them. And I' ; m really lucky because my family has recorded a lot in the Densho website, which is a gift that I know a lot of people don' ; t have. Um, so anyway, um, so I lived in LA and then I moved to the Bay Area, like San Francisco/Oakland, and I went to school there and then I moved to Washington DC and Donald Trump became the president. So I' ; m really lucky with work that I was able to leave Virginia and moved to the Midwest, to Illinois, for my job. So yeah, I hope that helps with the - AT: 00:01:48 Yeah, of course. HK: 00:01:49 Okay. AT: 00:01:49 And, so when, when exactly did you arrive to Chicago then? How long have you been here? HK: 00:01:54 Uh, April. So, is that half a year now, or five months? Six months. April, May, June, July, August, five months. Yeah. AT: 00:02:04 Okay. Um, awesome. Yeah. So then if you want to, I' ; d love to hear more about your family story and, and what you have learned about your family' ; s history. HK: 00:02:19 Yeah. Um, sometimes you wonder why you are the way you are and like why none of your family lives near each other, and why there were so many family secrets and why your family is dysfunctional to be honest. And learning my family story about internment and their deportation cause they were no-no boys and um, yeah, like it just, it gave me so much compassion for my family and for my mom and for myself. And that' ; s why these are so important because it' ; s like this is the historical context that like heals because, yeah, it sucks that our community kept it silent for so long. Um, yeah. So yeah. Cause it' ; s crazy how I think a lot of people, non-Japanese people always want to learn this sensational like internment story of like you didn' ; t have bathrooms or like the stalls didn' ; t, you know, like salacious. Is that a word? Salacious details? Um, I dunno if it cause it makes people feel sad or connected or what, but it' ; s not really that interesting. It' ; s sad. But, um, I was actually talking to, I did an ethnic studies program at San Francisco State and I was talking to my coordinator who is super awesome. She like helped found ethnic studies and she and I were talking about how, um, what' ; s more interesting about the internment is the after effects of the generations following. Um, because like, yeah, it' ; s amazing how much it psychologically wounded us as a community. Um, amazing is the wrong word. It' ; s, um, yeah. Um, I' ; m don' ; t think I' ; m answering your question. AT: 00:04:11 No, that' ; s, that' ; s all good. HK: 00:04:13 What was your question? AT: 00:04:15 It doesn' ; t matter. I don' ; t know. HK: 00:04:17 It does matter. Wait your question. Oh, my family story. Okay. So, it kind of like came out of, um, I did a lot of organizing when I lived in Seattle, like with Queer and Trans, um, like Asian-Americans, Asian and Pacific Islanders and specifically Japanese Americans. And I did like a lot of pilgrimage work when I was there. Like I went to Minidoka, the internment camp that Seattle lights were incarcerated in and Bainbridge people, near Seattle, they were incarcerated and Manzanar, and then many petitioned to be moved to Minidoka. So it was interesting like having that connection because my family was incarcerated in Manzanar. But um, so anyway, I always knew since I was like in fourth grade when we learned about World War II that I wanted to go to an internment camp with my family. Like I knew we were incarcerated, but growing up in Ohio really isolated, like it was hard. It was hard. I didn' ; t really know any other Japanese students. There was one person named Kelsey Miyahara and her brother and then my sister and my school had like 3000 students, like my high school and we were like the four Japanese American students, um, to my knowledge anyway. And, yeah, it was just hard, like being so disconnected. And so by the time I got to California and like had done like a lot of organizing and being really politicized in Seattle, um, like as a queer person of color. Like I came down to LA and I tried recording my family story. Even had like fucking, oh sorry, language. I even had like cassette tapes and stuff. I was like trying to like record their stories. But my grandmother had dementia pretty bad by then. So, but what was interesting about her dementia was she could remember the past, she couldn' ; t remember the present and so, or like she, she was always in the present. That' ; s weird. What about Alzheimer' ; s. They' ; re always in the present, which is like in Buddhism the ideal. But anyway, it had its good and bad moments. But um, but yeah, she always told me stories about World War II. I learned that, so my grandma, she, how do I say this? I like want to tell you my story, but it' ; s so complicated that I don' ; t, yeah, I' ; m not sure chronologically what would make the most sense, but basically the short story is like what I learned is that my family has been through a lot and they' ; re really amazing. The amount that they' ; ve survived and like how they were able to make meaning out of just being handed a really bad deal. Like, and how they tried to uphold their family values even though, yeah, it' ; s just really complicated. Um, like my grandfather became a no-no boy because my great grandmother wanted him to. He would have fought in the 442nd, but he wanted to be a good Japanese son. He was the oldest son and you know, um, each of the siblings chose different paths. One sibling Anna, she stayed, oh, Anna, she stayed here in the states. She got married in an internment camp, cause they would have been undocumented citizens if they had stayed, um, because they lost their citizenship with the, um, questionnaire. HK: 00:07:32 And so she stayed here. She moved to Hawai' ; i with her husband who she married I think in Tule Lake. And my great aunt grace and my great uncle Benny. And then my great grandfather and great grandmother and my Grandpa, they all were deported to Japan after being in, um, Bismark, North Dakota and Fort Lincoln because they were a part of the Hoshidan in Tule Lake, so, um, so like even just like learning that, like learning that my family got deported. I was like, oh my God. I was like, cause like you know when you' ; re a kid and you hear stories like Oh your grandpa met your grandma in Japan. I was like, what were they trying Japan or like or like, oh your uncle gene' ; s born in Japan. Um, but your mom who' ; s adopted from Japan cause they couldn' ; t get pregnant. So that' ; s why she' ; s an American citizen. HK: 00:08:16 And like when I hear these stories like now as an adult and like learning them and piecing the stories together, it all makes sense why my family didn' ; t have Japanese American friends. It all makes sense why, like they love white. It all makes sense why... really why we don' ; t have Japanese American family friends. Um, being not only no-no boys but like being in the Hoshidan and deported. I was like, oh my God, like, and like, and I think right now, especially now that DACA is about to be taken away, it' ; s like separating families and deporting people. It' ; s like, how do I say, like I am a living example of why it' ; s not good to deport people. Like, cause sometimes I like think about how screwed up my family is cause they were messed up already. Like lots of abuse in the family, but it' ; s like internment magnified the already existing interpersonal dynamic problems and it just exacerbated the trauma. HK: 00:09:23 And I think, um, yeah, I think, yeah, it' ; s never good to deport people. I don' ; t, I don' ; t really, it' ; s just, it' ; s so heartbreaking, like, just everything happening with undocumented immigrants because immigration status is so, you know, and Asian-Americans have a long history of trying to get around the system and I think about undocumented Asian-Americans who are like so invisibilized like on triple levels and quadruple levels for being Asian and undocumented in a movement that' ; s doesn' ; t see them as, yeah, like the model minority and stuff. And um, and I think about how my family was undocumented and I think about how like, how do I say, like I think about Chinese Americans too, and the paper sons and it' ; s just like, yeah, immigration status is just so... anyway, but yeah, of course. AT: 00:10:23 Thank you for, for sharing all of that. HK: 00:10:25 Yeah. AT: 00:10:27 I' ; m wondering if we could, uh, because I love getting into the zone - HK: 00:10:35 Oh to focus on family. AT: 00:10:36 Well just, um, just to go through HK: 00:10:37 Chronologically?. AT: 00:10:39 Yeah. Kind of like where they were at and like who. HK: 00:10:42 Sure. AT: 00:10:42 And who your family is? So we, so we can have that and then get into the - HK: 00:10:48 the bigger questions. Okay. AT: 00:10:49 Yes, yes. HK: 00:10:49 Yeah. Oh yeah. Cause it' ; s, that' ; s the whole purpose of this is to connect. Okay. AT: 00:10:53 Well just, and so I know too, because I, yeah, I would love to have just some more context. HK: 00:11:00 Sure. AT: 00:11:00 So - HK: 00:11:02 What camp they were in? AT: 00:11:04 Yeah. So, so your grandmother and your grandfather, um - HK: 00:11:08 They met in Japan. My grandma' ; s an immigrant. HK: 00:11:12 Yeah. So I' ; ll just talk about my American family and then I' ; ll talk about them being in Japan and then I' ; ll talk about them coming to America, again. Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah, I know, I told you it' ; s super complicated. And then my mom was adopted from Japan, so I' ; m just like, God I' ; m working it out like every day. I go to therapy, I go to - I have my crystal, like here I' ; ll just like have it out now. But, um, yeah, it' ; s hard when it' ; s a complicated story and then being biracial too. But I think being biracial isn' ; t that complicated in the Japanese American community because most of us are. But, um, but it wasn' ; t going to say, so my family immigrated to the United States from Japan and I think in 1910 if I looked at the census information correctly, um, there was Anna, Arthur, um, Grace and Ben and those were the four siblings. And my grandfather' ; s name is Arthur. And so my grandparents, or my great grandparents, I' ; m pretty sure my great grandfather was a landscaper and he made a lot of the gardens in Manzanar that they' ; re like uncovering now, especially by the hospital and the hospital' ; s where my grandfather worked. Um, and that' ; s also where he worked in Tokyo. Uh, US military base too, was like in as a quarterly. I think that' ; s what they' ; re called, the people who clean up stuff in hospitals. Um, so anyways, so they were living in LA area. Um, I think it was, oh my God. Where were they living in LA. It will come to me - Whittier high school? So maybe in Whittier? I, I' ; ve tried to remember the different areas of LA. HK: 00:12:45 Um, so anyways, so they were living there and then, um, like everyone else they were put on buses and they were taken to, um, to Manzanar. And my grandfather described it as like, they were really scared. They just thought like they may shoot all of us. Like he, he like shared little details. I still remember from fourth grade about like how - he didn' ; t tell me that part when I was in fourth grade, he told me that one as an adult about being scared that they were gonna get killed. But when I was in fourth grade, he told me that like, they like would stop on the side of the road and just give them toilet paper just to like, yeah, just like in public, just like so anyways, so - AT: 00:13:25 And how old was he? HK: 00:13:27 I think he was 23, if I remember. Like, and so it was really powerful, like, getting to know my grandparents at 20, I think I was 22 or 21. I actually think he was 22 or 21 cause I remember thinking, oh my God, like my grandpa was my age and I' ; m all the opportunities I' ; ve had because of my grandparents and financial support to get an education is because of them. Um, and he never had the opportunities to get an education, um, because he was incarcerated. And, um, so they were in Manzanar, um, and before they got sent to Tule Lake, um, the reason why I' ; m wearing this shirt is because my grandfather had a bunch of jobs and one of them was he would sell hot dogs at the baseball games, which I thought was pretty cool. And so I got this shirt at Manzanar when I went. Um, I forget, I think it was the Bainbridge pilgrimage. So what was interesting about his story was that I was so grateful I lived in Seattle, um, because I' ; ve been to Bainbridge and I' ; ve also met people on the internment like Minidoka pilgrimage committee who are from Bainbridge. And they were the first to be taken away. And so because it was so quick, they were sent to Manzanar and so because my grandparents were like landscapers, um like agricultural stuff like every Japanese American back then, or it' ; s either hotels or agriculture. So they um, he farmed with them cause it was like a way to get out of the camps was you could go farming and like farming for the white people. And so they basically, like, he befriended people from Bainbridge island, which made sense because I remember when I was in undergrad, it' ; s so funny when you learn the story and then all the details kind of fall into place, like they always talked about Bainbridge, when I lived in Seattle for undergrad, they were like, go to Bainbridge island, go to Bainbridge island. And I was like, okay, like I had no interest. And so now it makes sense. So the story, cause he was friends with people from Bainbridge, which is why they bought like a house there, um, as a property. HK: 00:15:29 Um, yeah. So they were in the camps just doing their best to like, like what everyone else did, just doing their best to seem like a human being. And then, um, then the no-no, the, um, questionnaire came out. And so my grandfather would' ; ve fought, he wasn' ; t gonna forswear his allegiance, but cause he always said, he' ; s like, I didn' ; t really understand the question and I would have said no to it. Um, cause I think for him it would' ; ve meant he wasn' ; t Japanese, but he was willing to fight for the military. Like he was like, yeah, I would' ; ve fought for my country. I' ; m an American. Um, but my great grandfather, oh, I' ; m sorry, my great grandmother was really disillusioned. And she was like, no, like you need to be like a good son. I assume. Like it' ; s funny, I read that John Okada' ; s " ; No-No Boy" ; and I have a feeling - I don' ; t know if my family was exactly like that, but it, it just, a lot of it was mental health and I' ; m feeling disillusioned as a Japanese immigrant at that time, Like as an Issei, I can' ; t, I can' ; t even imagine what my great-grandmother was going through. And, um, and maybe I would' ; ve done the same thing too. Um, and so she was like, she was like, no, like I need to go back to Japan. We can' ; t live here. They don' ; t want us. And so I mean, like my family, they sold their car. I remember when they told me this, I think I was in fourth grade when they told me, they sold their car for $10. And I just like when you' ; re in fourth grade, you hear that and you' ; re just like, what? But like as an adult, like $10, I can' ; t even get lunch for $10. Like, and I know it' ; s like different, you know, obviously it' ; s not 1940s, but it' ; s just so humiliating. I can' ; t even imagine how she felt. Um, yeah, I can' ; t even imagine how she felt. So she um, yeah, so they were no-nos, um, which was a sexist term! Cause there are no, no girls, I think, but whatever, um, cause Yuri, oh no, Yuri Kochiyama was part of the war. Nevermind, I was like was Yuri a no-no? Um, so basically my family, um, were sent to Tule Lake, and because they were a part of the no-nos, they were sent to like the, probably the shittier part of the camp, honestly. And from there they joined the Hoshidan, because I think they wanted to learn Japanese because they were going gonna get deported. So they were like better learn the language cause, assimilation, no one taught us. So basically, um, they' ; re part of the Hoshidan and I think it was in Tule Lake where my great-aunt Anna got married, and so she and her husband after the war moved to Hawai' ; i. But um, yeah and there was like more with another cousin. Like my family story is very complicated. Like, and I' ; m still piecing it together, honestly. So from Tule Lake they went to Fort Lincoln in North Dakota and I was so excited to see that the exhibit actually has Fort Lincoln. I was like, what? Like no one ever talks about those camps where they put Germans and Italians and Japanese people. So it' ; s like, damn, you know, my family' ; s messed up. It' ; s like they' ; re with the white people. So anyways, so they were there and from there they were sent to Japan. HK: 00:18:34 And I remember reading an article about my family because like that' ; s how it is with my family. It' ; s like they only share certain details, but I' ; ve been really lucky that I' ; ve had a family who likes to talk about themselves so much. It' ; s like narcissism is a great quality to have, but it' ; s also like, I hope part of their healing process too. Um, and I think it is. I really do think it is. And, but, um, anyway, so my great-uncle Benny, he had done an article with someone and he had essentially described what I' ; m about to tell you, like about going to Japan and what that was like. And so it was the three siblings and the two great-grandparents, AT: 00:19:10 Just to clarify, can you help me out with, like, how old everyone was. HK: 00:19:17 By that time? AT: 00:19:17 In the order of your grandfather' ; s family? HK: 00:19:19 Oh, so he, oh, so my great aunt Anna was the oldest siblings, so she was probably mid-twenties. He was early twenties and then Grace and Benny were probably teenagers, like probably like 19/18 cause they were all pretty close in age. Yeah. AT: 00:19:35 Okay thank you. I didn' ; t realize that HK: 00:19:36 Oh yeah, sure. Of course. AT: 00:19:38 But so, so HK: 00:19:39 By that time he was probably in his mid, late twenties. They' ; re probably in their early-twenties or mid-twenties. Um, cause it' ; s been like four years or five years. No, three years. Wait four years. I think there were deported in 1945. Yeah, so it would have been and Pearl Harbor happened in 41. Okay. Um, yeah, no, that' ; s a good question. It' ; s good to like track. So I was like, was he entering his Saturn Return? Like when he was deported? Oh my God. Okay. Anyway, so they were deported and because they were Japanese American, they didn' ; t speak Japanese. Um, and so they ended up working at a U.S. Military base. Just the ironies upon ironies. I know from my family, but before they worked in Tokyo, like at a hospital, um, which is where they worked in Manzanar in hospitals too, um, like cleaning up people' ; s like waste basically. Um, yeah, it was a really sad story. It was like, even my grandfather I think talked about it a little in Densho about like being on the train and seeing just the devastation, the atomic bombs, like just like, I can' ; t even imagine like, like being treated like shit in your country and then like going back to the country that you' ; re supposed to be and then like seeing it in total ruins because of the country you came from. And then, um, basically the story was they were on the train and they got to the stop and then my great-grandma, I assume it was her, cause they were rice farmers, they were looking for their rice farms and they couldn' ; t find them and they walked for like miles, like along the train tracks and just by the time they got to the village, I guess, um, yeah, the way that the article that I read about my family was like my great-aunt Grace she just like sat down and just started crying just by the time they got there and it' ; s just really hard to hear it cause my great-aunt Grace was my favorite aunt. She actually is my favorite aunt, hands-down. Um, and she' ; s like one of the funniest people I had ever known. And so it' ; s usually funny people are funny cause they' ; ve been through a lot of bad things and um, yeah, I think about my aunt Grace a lot, um, when I think about them going back to Japan, um, and how that impacted her. AT: 00:22:03 And so were they returning to where your great-grandparents were from? HK: 00:22:09 I assume it was my great-grandmother. Yeah. That was the sense I was getting, cause she was the one who really wanted to go back. So they had been rice farmers, so I assume, um, and yeah, I just assumed they were looking for their farm. But um, it was probably destroyed during the war, so because it was destroyed or they couldn' ; t find it, they ended up going to Tokyo and working in like the hospital or the military bases, finding different jobs, befriending white people to, really, as a way to come back to America. Um, if it wasn' ; t for this, like white soldier person my family wouldn' ; t have come back to the United States. So it was my grandfather' ; s way of befriending white people to come back to America. And then my great-aunt Grace, she came back to America by marrying someone she didn' ; t love. She married like a soldier who she didn' ; t really love because she wanted to come back to America. And my great uncle Benny, he has a lot of problems. He just came back to the United States when, um, they did the pardon, which I think was in the 50s where the government apologized and said, you are under distress, clearly, and you can come back to America if you want. Um, so, and then my, I think I' ; m confused about my great-grandfather. Like what, I know he was in America for a bit, but I think they sent him back to Japan cause he wasn' ; t a good person. Um, but my great-grandmother, she ended up living in LA, like coming back, I think during the pardon, and just her story it was just, I feel like a lot of people in my family, honestly, had really tragic endings, but it' ; s just, I actually learned my great grandmother' ; s story through my second cousin, my great-uncle Benny' ; s son. He' ; s so nice. His name is Kenneth. He lives in Seattle. He' ; s like, he' ; s just so nice. And so when I lived in Seattle, I got to know him better. Um, and yeah, he shared with me about my great-grandmother and how she basically like, yeah, she lived I think by train tracks like somewhere in LA and that, like, she, she just like, her story was, she was just so disillusioned about everything that happened. And, um, I think my great aunt grace would always visit her, but it' ; s crazy how disconnected I feel from them that I don' ; t know their names, you know, that I don' ; t know if my grandmother died alone, my great grandmother, you know. Um, and that' ; s what internment did, it just, it just separated us as a family. Um like, yeah, I have family scattered everywhere. Um, yeah. And so in Japan though, my great-aunt Grace, she was a typist and that' ; s where she met my grandmother, Kimiko, um, oh actually I don' ; t know, my grandmother' ; s maiden last name. That' ; s a problem. Patriarchy, you know. Um, so Kimiko worked in the U.S. base too, cause she really wanted to come to America. So her mom, so my other great-grandma wanted her to be a geisha and she was like, no thanks I want to go to America. And she would always talk about how like all the Japanese girls would like date, like GIs, like white soldiers. But she wasn' ; t looking for a GI. She was looking for someone she actually wanted to love. And so she met my grandfather through my aunt because they were in the same class together. She' ; s like, oh, I want you to meet my brother. And then they ended up getting married. She liked how tall he was cause like he' ; s very tall. Um, and my aunt and uncle are very tall too. My mom' ; s really short. She' ; s adopted. Um, so we look nothing like our family. Um, so anyway, so they met my grandmother was from Fukuoka and um, yeah, and they met in Tokyo and then they immigrated to America I think in the fifties. Um, they were able to come back and they weren' ; t able to get pregnant when they were in Japan. They had my uncle Gene. Um, and they tried and tried but couldn' ; t. And so they adopted my mom from the same city as my grandmother' ; s son, which was Fukuoka and, um, and they ended up getting pregnant that year with my aunt, I think. HK: 00:26:12 So that' ; s, yeah. Anyway. And so my grandmother who had dementia, she would always tell me stories about Japan, um, cause she could remember it. Um, and she told me about, I think I like, I was like that non-Asian person who wanted to know the sensational details. I was like, did any of your friends die? I was just such an idiot when I was like trying to record my family stories. But one of her friends did die actually. Like there was like, but it wasn' ; t from like an explosion. It was from residue from the explosion, like a piece hot like concrete or something fell on her thigh and it just became infected. And, and my grandmother almost starved to death during the war too. Like she used to like make, um, she used to like when her mom wasn' ; t home, cause like they had have to ration food, she like would like just wet rice and like add flour to it and like eat that paste. And I um, God like even sharing that out loud, um, cause these are stories she just told me, um, in her house when I was like 21, 22. It' ; s amazing. Like I think about all the opportunities she' ; s given me, um, that I don' ; t have to starve and that I could go to college, that I could, not only could I go to college, but I could study sociology and ethnic studies. You know what I mean? Like that' ; s wow. Like I didn' ; t have to be a doctor. I didn' ; t have to do a practical degree. I could, yeah. I could do degrees that the society doesn' ; t value. Um, yeah. And so it' ; s interesting like having a Japanese immigrant parent who experienced the war, having a Japanese grandparent who experienced internment, and then having a mom who was adopted. Um, so it' ; s always felt like a very complicated story. And the last piece is the story, or there' ; s never a last piece, but one dream I do have is trying to find my birth grandmother. Um, I always wanted to know what happened. Like why would someone give up their child? Um, there wasn' ; t really any records, but we recently found out that my mom, her name, her birth name is Eiko Okuda that her mom' ; s name is Eiko Okuda, that my great-grandmother named, oh no, not my great, but my grandmother named my mom after her and my mom was like, oh it' ; s cause she didn' ; t love me. Like she even bothered give me a name and I was like, what if she wanted to - like we could find her. Maybe that' ; s why she gave you her name, and my mom was like, hm. I don' ; t know. But I think it' ; s really amazing, like having so many grandparents and like really feeling loved by them. And like, I think adoption is really complicated. I think about like Korean adoptees and I was like, oh my heart goes out. And Chinese adoptees too, you know? And yeah, I think we normally don' ; t associate adoption with Japanese and, um - AT: 00:29:07 And I don' ; t, I would say even less so of that time - HK: 00:29:11 - Generation. And what' ; s interesting about the generation is that there was a push for inter, not interracial, but transracial adoption like by white Americans of like Asian, like of, well I was talking to someone about this cause that really surprised me cause there was so much racism, so I was like, are you sure? Like, is this correct? But if that is true, it had to do with that sense of multiculturalism that we have now that was like burgeoning in after the civil rights movement. Um, which was like around the time my mom was adopted, but um, or not after, but like around when everything was reaching the boiling point in the 60s, which was when she was adopted. HK: 00:29:57 But, um, now I' ; m getting off track and I need to Google and research it. But I hope that makes sense. The family trajectory of being in America, getting deported, meeting in Japan, coming back to America, and then adopting my mother. Yeah. And the last story I do want to share about, um, Fukuoka is that my grandmother, she would always repeat herself cause she had Alzheimer' ; s. So it' ; s like I really learned the stories and she told me, she was like, she was like, the weather saved my life. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she was like, yeah, you know, she was like, we were supposed to be bombed by - but it was cloudy that day. So that' ; s why Nagasaki was bombed. And like the thought of like, like I wouldn' ; t have been alive, like my mom' ; s family, like blood family wouldn' ; t have been alive either. And it' ; s amazing how a cloudy day can save your life. And it just shows how just arbitrary, and not arbitrary, but just like one wrong move, and it' ; s, it just shows how little control we have. And I think, is it okay if I talk about the president? I think like during this era, like I think a lot of liberals are, just like white liberals really are just feeling out of control. And the truth is we' ; re not in control ever. And I think like, I feel so lucky with like a meditation practice that I had when I lived in the bay area. It was trans meditation and um, basically like learning that we really aren' ; t in control and doing the best we can with what we can control. And I think, you know, I used to always like roll my eyes at " ; shigataganai" ; and " ; gamman" ; and I was like, what the fuck is wrong with people? But it like, it' ; s true, like shigataganai, like some things literally can' ; t be helped and some things can, but it' ; s, I think that' ; s, I think I have finally understand shigataganai and gamman in a way that I had never because Donald Trump' ; s our president and feeling so helpless, and like he didn' ; t even win the popular vote. Like, it' ; s just some things are literally out of your control, whether it' ; s a Russian hacking or the popular vote not being taken seriously. It' ; s like, um, it' ; s like, how do you shigataganai basically the stuff you can' ; t change and then how do you fight back with the stuff you can change if you have enough privilege to do that. Yeah. AT: 00:32:35 Thank you. HK: 00:32:36 You' ; re welcome. AT: 00:32:42 So I would love to hear a little bit more about, um, your own journey and experience and, and learning your family' ; s history and also, um, this history in general because I feel like, and I know you' ; ve touched on it at times, but everyone kind of has their own like, oh, well we didn' ; t talk about it. I learned about it. So I want to hear more about like your experience about learning about your presentation and then also kind of like connecting those dots and piecing together your family story. HK: 00:33:19 Absolutely. And I' ; m like trying to cross my legs. Um, yeah, it' ; s - healing is really painful experience. Um, it' ; s like when you get to the other side, you' ; re like, whew, okay, I made it. But while you' ; re in it - I think when I was 19 that was my first pilgrimage. I think I was just so like radical and QTPOC and it' ; s just like a mess honestly. But like being at the internment camp, being at Minidoka in Idaho, it was such an important moment. I think even when I was 9 years old or 10 years old, whatever or however old I was in fourth grade, I always knew I needed to go. It' ; s kind of like how I' ; ve always known I need to go to Japan to find my birth grandmother. It' ; s just something you know, intuitively, and I like, I knew I need to go to a camp. I was like, I have to like, how am I - like I live in fricking Ohio, like no Asian people. Like I was like, I need, I just have to. And so the first time I went on a pilgrimage, I just cried so much and it was the first time I ever felt Japanese American. And it was because everyone looked like my family. There were mixed people. There were people who looked like my aunt and uncle. There were people looked like my grandparents. There were people who weren' ; t Japanese, but were just there to support, like whether it' ; s interracial or there' ; s just really like Japanese culture and they' ; re there. And it felt like home though. It felt like what I knew. And um, it was the first time I ever really heard about the suicides in our community. And it was the first time I ever really saw older Japanese Americans cry. And that like, that fucked me up. And, and then when I went on Manzanar pilgrimage, seeing my grandfather cry was really hard. Um, he even just starts crying when he' ; s just talking about the internment. He even doesn' ; t even need to be at the camp. He just starts crying. And, um, so for me it wasn' ; t like - it' ; s just hard seeing old people cry and it' ; s hard seeing your community cry. It' ; s hard seeing your family cry. And it' ; s crazy. Cause I think a lot of people when they' ; re older, they want to protect the youth. They don' ; t want them to see them cry, especially if they' ; re your family. But I think that' ; s how traumatizing internment was, was that like my grandfather literally can' ; t control himself. Like he just starts crying. Um, yeah. I think as a community - they - we just try to control it and hold it in for so many years that - I mean that' ; s the bad part of shigataganai is like, it, it just like - it' ; s why our community has so many like mental health issues, honestly. We may be financially okay, but spiritually are we? Emotionally and like mentally are we okay? And um, yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t know the answer to that. And I think our community like learning about the history as a whole, like you' ; re asking, it' ; s really interesting. It' ; s like we are from a people who colonized other Asian people. We are from people who colonized our own people. Like, what was it, the Ainu and the Okinawans. I' ; m like, what the fuck' ; s wrong with people? And I just coming from that legacy and understanding how like Chinese and Filipino and Korean and like South Asian, whether Pakistani or Indian didn' ; t have the opportunities we had in America because they weren' ; t part of an empire. Um, and well, an empire at that time period. I' ; m considering China being an empire at certain points in history, but, um, I think with Japan it' ; s like, it' ; s such a bizarre state - situation to be in. It' ; s like it was such a culture shock I think for Japanese Americans because they were treated not great. There' ; s still experienced racism, but they were treated better than other Asian people, Asian and Pacific Islanders I should say. And so I think when internment happened, it sent a shock-wave through our community. This like sense of superiority that I think they had because they were from an empire, you know, that it just, it really, you know, when you meet someone who' ; s Japanese American, you know, when you meet someone who is from Japan, you know, when you meet someone who was in Hawai' ; i during the internment, you know - or at least I know when I meet someone who' ; s from the mainland and incarcerated because I think people who were incarcerated carry this like shame and like sadness with them. Even if, if it' ; s us, like the fourth generation, there' ; s this like sense of shame that we carry about being Japanese and this like disconnection that when I meet people I' ; m like, oh that person, they immigrated or their parents immigrated cause they don' ; t hate themselves or like that' ; s why our friend Anise - am I allowed to talking about it? That' ; s why she' ; s so fascinating to me because she' ; s Yonsei and Shin-Nisei and I can see both in her, and Shin-Nisei are just like so empowered. I was like what the hell? And the Yonsei are just like werb-werb-werb you know, it' ; s like, Oh God, I hate us all. And it' ; s like, I think with like, um, with our community, it' ; s just, we' ; re just so complicated. And like my mentor, she told me, her partner called it like shades of JA. Like there are just so many JAs and we' ; re not even talking - I wasn' ; t even talking about Okinawans. I wasn' ; t even talking about the Ainu I wasn' ; t even talking about like what does it mean to be from Hawai' ; i because they did experience different types of incarceration but just not seen as incarceration on the mainland and same with Canadians. And then also same with people in Latin America who were brought up, you know, so yeah, so I wanted to say that. And I also wanted to say that I think I was really lucky. I know a lot of people don' ; t have exposure to their family history, and my family, because they' ; re narcissists, they love talking about themselves. And so it was easy for me to learn their story because they would just so openly shared it. And then also they openly shared it on the internet too. And like when I was in fourth grade, they even were willing to share like little stories that you would tell a child. Um, so I never felt like - excuse me - I think that' ; s part of the reason why I moved from Seattle to LA. I knew I could learn my family story. I think if I had never really heard any of it, like in fourth grade or through over the years, I wouldn' ; t have felt like, oh, let me move here. Because a lot of Japanese American families just don' ; t talk about it. So, so I feel really like blessed in that sense that like, yeah, my family stories really - I don' ; t know if tragic' ; s the right word, they' ; re tragic elements. But yeah, my family' ; s story is really complicated and really sad. Um, but I knew I could learn it. Um, and I didn' ; t realize how complicated and sad it was or I probably wouldn' ; t have tried to learn it cause it was, it' ; s depressing when you learn your family story, you' ; re like, oh man, you went through that. Oh my God. And that happened. And, but at the same time, like I' ; m so grateful that I learned it because if I hadn' ; t learned it, I think I would still carry that sadness with me. And now that I don' ; t, now that I know it, I know I' ; m not sad anymore. I mean, I get sad and I cry, I cry, I like fricking internment trailers, but it' ; s like I don' ; t carry the sadness of not knowing anymore, which is a certain type of sadness and trauma. Um, I just carry like, man, my family' ; s messed up. Like, and I can joke about it. And I think when you can joke about something, not always, but I think for me now that I' ; m able to joke about it, it means that I have done some healing because I remember the first internment camp I went to, I like could not joke at all, but like as time has gone on, I can make jokes when I' ; m at an internment camp, but like maybe that' ; s horrible. I don' ; t know. But it' ; s like, it' ; s, um, I think when you' ; re able to joke about something, yeah, it' ; s either you haven' ; t processed your feelings or you have and like you' ; re able to find humor even in the worst situation. AT: 00:41:36 And why do you think that? Um, um, like what is it about knowing that handles that, that' ; s healing or, or, or what was the difference exactly between the sadness of not knowing versus the sadness of just everything that happens? HK: 00:41:56 I think for me, I was just a very defensive, like QTPOC, whenever I say that I mean like Queer and Trans people of color. And I was like very defensive. I was just like, don' ; t mess with me white America, like, don' ; t mess with me. And I think I had a lot of stuff going on cause I' ; m half white so I was like God mixed race people, it' ; s like half white people anyway cause not every mix is half white. But anyway, um, I think for me I was coming from a place of defensiveness and like I also, it was like when I was younger it was this sadness that people would say things to me. Like white people in particular that I knew wasn' ; t true. Like, I like, people would say things to me about Japanese culture or just anything I just like knew - I was like that' ; s not true. But I don' ; t know why. And I remember like I was in, I was 13, it was in eighth grade. This one popular boy, white boy, everyone was white basically, not everyone but most, he like - he and I got into this argument we were talking about should the bomb have been dropped, and like he and I like I don' ; t remember cause he was some, one of the most popular boys in the class and I just sort of stood up and started yelling and I was like, no it was wrong. I like, it was like my ancestors were talking through me cause like I had no idea. I was very introverted, I was a closeted gay b trans b whatever you want to call me. Like I definitely wasn' ; t outgoing like in that sense, but like something in me knew that what he was saying was wrong, morally wrong, spiritually wrong and that people, my people died because of imperialism and like, yeah. So I think like that, like the not knowing was the sadness of like people telling me things, but in my heart knowing, mm I think something you' ; re saying is wrong, like, but I don' ; t know what. And it' ; s that - and that' ; s why you internalized racism cause it' ; s like constantly people are projecting like microaggressions every day or like macroaggressions and then you just, you just, you hate yourself and you think, oh yeah, I' ; m Japanese. Like, man, like, like I' ; m nobody. Like, you know, I don' ; t have a history. We' ; re not really American. Like, yeah. Yeah. I think that' ; s the difference. And I think knowing it now, I feel more American now than I did before. And it' ; s complicated because we' ; re not native American. I' ; m not native American, so I' ; m not American in that sense. And so, um, so it was partly that. And it was also partly I wanted to learn my story because of Uncle Fred and Auntie Dorothy Cordova who created this group called Filipino American National Historical Society, which has like - I' ; m like promoting it right now - that has like chapters throughout the country. And really, I think it was in the ' ; 80s they created it and it was a way, or the ' ; 70s Oh, I need to remember. But it was a way to record Filipino American stories, specifically Filipino American. And they mentored me so graciously and I really - they - Uncle Fred always told me, learn your Asian American history, learn your Asian American history. And they always accepted me as a mixed person, which was really special. And it was because of Uncle and Auntie Dorothy really that it, that I even wanted to learn my Asian American history and learn my family history. Cause I knew just from their legacy in their work that it was - I remember Auntie Dorothy told me, she was like, she learned Filipina American history because it gave her a sense of self worth. She was like, I just, I feel like I have a sense of worth now. Now that I know my story now that I know my history, um, you feel like she was like, I feel like I' ; m part of America now. And I think that' ; s what' ; s hard about Asian American history because even within academia, even with an ethnic studies, honestly it feels like Asian American history is not taken as seriously. Um, and we' ; re not really seen as people of color who experienced racism and, let alone, if you' ; re half white, then you can forget it you' ; re definitely not a person of color. And so I think it' ; s like, it' ; s like no, it' ; s like no, we are people of color, we do experience racism. We just experience it in a very specific way and, you know, like erasing our histories is part of white supremacy and we actually can learn a lot from each other if we just like took the time, took down our walls of being really defensive, which are our coping mechanisms and really shared our stories, like sharing that my grandparents had to sell their car for $10. Like that' ; s horrible. Like you know, like little, I think people think of Japanese America as this really rich community, and we are now, I would say we' ; re upper-middle class and I also want to say like that' ; s because of our, the history of pitting people of color against each other and elevating certain people and Japan' ; s history of being an empire. Like, that' ; s why our community' ; s so wealthy. And I think like, like I think people just kind of ignore the fact that of what happened and how it' ; s psychologically wounded our community and why we are the way we are. And how do you hold that complexity of both having privilege and then also being oppressed. And I think most people have both but are unwilling to talk about it. Um, yeah. I hope I answered your question. AT: 00:47:01 That was very well said. HK: 00:47:02 Okay, cool. Cool, good, good. AT: 00:47:05 Um. So you, uh, I don' ; t even know where to start. So you' ; ve, you' ; ve lived in a number of different places and I' ; m wondering if we can, uh, talk about your, uh, experiences and/or involvement, um, with different Japanese American communities in the country, if you, if you have been getting involved and where you were at. HK: 00:47:32 Question, is it okay if I go to the bathroom? AT: 00:47:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can take a break. HK: 00:47:34 Can we pause really quick? It' ; s all the coffee. AT: 00:47:38 Yeah. So, um, cause you mentioned that you were pretty isolated in Ohio. So if you could just like, yeah, you know give the lay of the land. HK: 00:47:49 So, um, yeah, it was funny when I was in Ohio, I just, I wanted to learn anything about Japanese culture, but like I didn' ; t cause I internalized racism. And I remember being Japanese in high school was like, like - don' ; t worry, this connects to your question. But um, I remember once someone came up to me - they were a person of color, thank God, but it was still really awkward - they asked me what kind of Asian I was and I knew she really liked like manga - and at the time I didn' ; t even know what manga was I thought it was called anime. That' ; s how disconnected I was from anything. And all I knew is I didn' ; t, wasn' ; t gonna read manga or like watch anime because that' ; s weird people do that. And I remember this one white girl came up to me and was like, she like confessed to me what she was like, like I like, I watch anime. And I was just like, I don' ; t care. I don' ; t even know what that is. Like my internalized racist ass. I was like, I don' ; t care white girl. She' ; s like, I' ; m really ashamed. I was like, I don' ; t, okay me too, like lot, plenty of shame to go around. But I remember I didn' ; t say me too, cause obviously I didn' ; t know. I was like, Oh okay, I don' ; t care. Um, cause that' ; s how deeply rooted was it was like even the white people who did it, they knew that only weird people watch that stuff. Only weirdos. Right. And so I think I always associated being Japanese with being really weird. And um, and so this person, she came up to me and she was like, what kind of Asian are you? And I was like, don' ; t say Japanese. I was like, oh my gosh, shouldn' ; t say Japanese she' ; s going to love me if I say Japanese. But I grew up Irish Catholic. So I was like Japanese because like I couldn' ; t lie, like it was a sin. And so in my - you know - I was taught that it was sinful to lie. So I was like Japanese, she' ; s like, oh my God, Japanese. I was like, yeah, like it was just so much. So that was my exposure to I guess a Japanese community. Like, and I was like, me and my sister, Kelsey and her brother were like the only four Japanese Americans I knew growing up in Ohio. Um, I remember there was one person named Nastsuko Abe, who they called Natsuko, Abe, but like looking back I was like, that' ; s how you pronounce her name. But anyway, that was when I was in, I think like, elementary school, second grade, fifth grade, I don' ; t know. But I remember I was so excited to meet like someone from Japan, but she was only there for half a semester cause she was - or for one semester - cause she was an exchange student. So that was really cool meeting her. But as you can tell it' ; s very isolated. So, um, so by the time I, you know, was a senior - or no, I was a junior - they offered Chinese at my school, and I thought this is it. This is like the closest I' ; m going to get to Japanese so I' ; m going to take Chinese. Same language, right? Not at all. But like that professor or that teacher, she was my favorite teacher in high school. Like very much like that-teacher-who-changes-you. Like she was that for me, she was one of the most loving and compassionate and warm people, and basically it was because of her and her warmth and like loving taking that class with her that I decided I was going to do Asian Studies, which brought me out to the west coast because I was like, I' ; ve got to go where Asian people are. I had no intention of learning Japanese American history. I was like, I' ; m here to like learn about Asia, not Asian American. So I went out there and I, yeah. And everything changed when I went out there because I started seeing myself being reflected everywhere, whether it was interracial couples, um, children who looked like me when I was a kid. Um, yeah. And I took an Asian studies class, um, it was called " ; The Asian American Experience." ; We learned about Filipino, Chinese, and Japanese Americans and that' ; s actually how I met the Cordovas was through that class. I did an internship at the Filipino society and everything changed. And I think like I was a sophomore in college when I changed my major and yeah, everything changed. Um, I actually changed it to, they didn' ; t have Asian American studies, but they had - I could do African American studies. And I think for me, I just wanted to learn about people of color, period. And that was part of the reason why I did ethnic studies. I just wanted to learn about people of color in America. Like, cause I didn' ; t have that growing up. And I think like what was so powerful about African American Studies, specifically African American history, the classes I took, was like know your history, know who you are, know your community. And like that' ; s how you can heal, that idea of Sankofa of like we understand the past in order to like understand the present and have a future very much like circular time. And, um, and then the also that the saying of everything we do is for the next 7 generations or everything we do is for 14 generations because the past and present for like, um, I hate saying " ; Native American sayings" ; cause I don' ; t know what tribe that saying is from but - Native American saying. But um, yeah just that idea of knowing your past and so all of these courses and all of these things helped get me out into the community. Cause I think for me, I was just intellectualizing everything. I was just in school, but like these courses really politicized me. And there was this group on campus, the multicultural affairs office, and they had a students of color retreat that said mixed people are welcome. Cause I was like, well I' ; m not a person of color but I' ; m mixed so I guess I can go. I hope they like me. And so I went and that' ; s where I became politicized too was my sophomore year of college. And then through that retreat and all these classes I was taking sophomore year, that' ; s what got me out into the community. So don' ; t worry, it all connects. So when I was doing community work, I was mainly doing racial justice work for immigration stuff for at first there was also this community garden, um, called the Danny Wu Garden in the international district in Chinatown. And just being around Asian American elders, it was just really powerful. Um, and so all these things like the classes, the Filipino American society led me to wanting to work with the Minidoka pilgrimage. I was like a scholarship recipient, um, that summer. And then because of this immigration, like it was mainly like, I think it was mainly Latino run, they were organizing mayday march and at the mayday march when I was helping out, like I was one of those people wearing the little yellow vests or whatever or orange vests, I forget. I saw this banner that said " ; Tadaima - radical Japanese organizing" ; and they all looked hapa. And I was like, what is - I like literally went up to them and I was like, hey, like - like God, so awkward - I was like, hey, like I' ; m radical. I' ; m Japanese. Like, what are, what is this? And they were like, you' ; re the first not-white person and come up to us. I was like, oh yeah, they like our anime. And like we, we just had this moment and they were all queer and this is before identified as queer. So it was really special that like all of these racial and economic justice groups or so many queer and trans people. And that' ; s what helped me come out to myself, um, to see myself reflected in another person. And so I organized with Tadaima for like two years, I think, especially that one summer. Um, there' ; s just a really beautiful, like sweet group of people based out of Seattle, mainly queer and trans, um, mixed Asian Americans - or mixed Japanese Americans. And they work with like Sundeoksu like Korean group if it' ; s still around. Um, they work with Pinay south Seattle, um - Filipino group - Um, I' ; m trying to think. I' ; m trying to think who else. Basically they do a lot of like queer, Asian American organizing, but also like trying to mobilize, especially with like black lives matter. I could, I don' ; t know how active the group is anymore, Tadaima but that group gave me so many opportunities to like connect with the whole community as a whole. Like we did this API freedom school and like teaching kids Asian American history. It' ; s just like that group of people, they were so special. Like we used to do like educational things like every other week or once a month. Like learn a topic about like Japanese spirituality or like, you know, just like anything to just sort of come together and feel empowered as Japanese Americans. And um, yeah, looking back I was like, wow, what a gift. Cause I really was able to accept myself as a queer person because of that group. And um, that summer, the first summer I was part of Tadaima we went to this Hiroshima event together and they had like all these lanterns and it was just such a powerful experience. Like, thinking back to that argument when I was 13 and knowing something was off and then getting to - from 13 to 19, like what a difference, well I was 20 I think, seven years later like being with Japanese Americans at this like Hiroshima remembrance event. Yeah. So that was Seattle. It' ; s a really positive experience. And I moved to LA. Um, I studied abroad, I came back from study abroad, I finished school and then I came, um, I came to LA to try and learn my family history. I wasn' ; t really involved in the Japanese American community there cause I was doing this awful Americorps program that like I had no time to do anything cause it was like awful and they ended up quitting it and like doing other work. But LA is so spread out that I found it was really hard to really cultivate Japanese American community there. I definitely connected with the Queer Asian and Pacific islander community there, um, through this group called API Equality-LA. Um, so that was really cool. Like getting opportunities from that group of Queer Asian Americans who like connected me to like I got to work with GSA, gay straight alliances throughout the Los Angeles Unified School district cause of them, like it was like very much they take care of, they take care of their own, you know what I mean? And like people were really welcoming, like I' ; m mixed and they welcomed me. Like most people weren' ; t mixed there, but they always welcomed mixed people. And Seattle was just super mixed. So they just like, you know, you' ; re one of the dime a dozen or whatever. So it was really interesting and a culture shock when I moved to the bay area. Um, and it was like constantly being told both directly and indirectly, cause we are Asian American after all, like that I was not welcome, that I was too white, that I wasn' ; t really a person of color. And then I definitely really wasn' ; t Asian American and I think like it was devastating. I like, I wanted so badly to be around my people because that' ; s all I knew like with Seattle and LA. And so it was like, it sucked so much. Um, being told to go away and direct and indirect ways by queer and trans Asian Americans. I wouldn' ; t even say trans though. Trans communities way more accepting than the queer cis community. Anyway, um, so I think like it was, it was devastating and that led me to do more mixed race studies, mixed race organizing. Um, cause there was like this festival in LA, there are these critical mixed race studies conferences. And I had like, my mixed identity was like evolving as time went on. And I like even in LA, like they were super welcoming but I knew something was different about me and that the stories weren' ; t really sitting the same way. And it was actually in San Francisco when I was basically constantly told go away by the sister organization of API Equality-LA called API Equality-Northern California. Just the people in the group. Not all of them, but a lot of them just - it was so it, it was, it was really sad when it happened actually. Um, but you know, identity, politics, whatever. But I think like I emailed Amy Sueyoshi, she was leading this oral history project called The Dragon Fruit Project. It was an intergenerational, um, like one queer elders and Queer youth who are all Asian and Pacific Islander, Queer and trans. Sorry. Um, and she like kind of swooped me up. Like she, I sent this email and be like, hey Amy, like, thanks so much for welcoming cause like she was, she knew the director of API Equality-LA, so API Equality-LA - see this is how they take care of people there, she was like, oh, let me introduce you to Amy Sueyoshi. She' ; s someone you should know. And so I met Amy at API Equality in Northern California because of API Equality-LA. So like API Equality-LA actually like, yeah, they' ; re so good about taking care of people and like welcoming people, you know? And so, um, so when I met Amy, I like told her, I was like, yeah, like I' ; m too white, I' ; m so sorry, like, this project sounds awesome, but I shouldn' ; t be the one to be a part of it, like, thanks so much, you seem really cool but yeah, I can' ; t. And she like responded with this like really long email and it was so nice and she said all these nice things and she was like come into my office - like she works at San Francisco State - and basically that conversation led to me applying to grad school and like led to me - like she even shared something in the email. She said that a lot of JAs like fourth generation don' ; t feel connected to or even third generation like Sansei don' ; t feel connected to Asia America because we have such a different history with the internment and being like generationally in the United States compared to a lot of Asian Americans who are the first generation or second generation and like, you know, immigrant kid aches like language, filial piety, guilt, all the shit. Like that' ; s just something we don' ; t really have as much as other Asian Americans. Like a lot of us didn' ; t speak our language growing up. A lot of us didn' ; t eat the foods growing up. Like, we don' ; t, we don' ; t have that story of going to elementary school, bringing our food and having the kids make fun of us, you know, or stuff like that. Or like you, yeah. Anyway, I don' ; t even to go out into every horrible thing, you know, every type of microaggression or racist thing that Asian Americans go through. But basically like Amy' ; s email really, she really saw me and like she really accepted me as a mixed person, which was really, I was like, whoa, really? Like, cause she' ; s - I thought she was monoracial but I found out she was Okinawa and mainland Japanese. And I think that' ; s a mixed experience in and of itself. And so, um, anyways, so to answer your question in the bay, I didn' ; t organize with Japanese Americans and I didn' ; t organize with Asian Americans. Um, I was volunteering some time with the straight, they' ; re not all straight, but like, I find that like straight Asian American groups are more welcoming of mixed people than queer and trans groups. And I think at, I keep saying queer and trans, but I' ; ll tell you, the trans community is so welcoming. We would take everyone, take white people would take everyone, but um, anyway, but it' ; s like for like Queer Asian American, like it' ; s just identity politics or it' ; s just so intense when you' ; re half white. It' ; s just like, should I even show up? Like, and but with like I found with like more hetero, like Asian American, there was less of crabs in a barrel. It was more like, oh, you' ; re half white, okay, my husband' ; s white. Or like, you know what I' ; m saying? It wasn' ; t like as serious like, and so I did volunteer some times with um, the Asian Law Caucus, which is like Asians Advancing Justice - Asian Americans Advancing Justice. Um, the one in San Francisco and um, yeah. Um, God that was so cool. Like, cause I got to meet some of the Japanese American elders, um, like famous ones and like it was like, that was a very - that was a very important experience for me too because like I understood the ways in which fame really disconnects people. Um, like way we idealize like say the Kochiyamas or say the Korematsus but then actually meeting the Korematsu' ; s and the Kochiyamas you see that they' ; re just people and that they' ; re normal and that that we can be great too. And it' ; s just that their families were in the spotlight with their excellence. And that was a gift to get to, to know the Kochiyamas and the Korematsus, um, stories better from their children, um, through Asian Law Caucus. And then now I' ; m here and um, I have to say, cause I, you know, I know I shit talk the Queer API community a lot on the west coast - or well in the bay, but I also want to name that being here with queer and trans Asian Americans, it' ; s been really healing actually. Like they' ; re so welcoming. Like I showed a picture of that group I 2 I to a friend on the west coast and I was like, oh my God, look at this photo. And it' ; s like you have like South Asian, southeast, east, like transracially adopted people, mixed people who are double POC and like half white. Like you have like you have old people, you have young people, people bring their babies to events here. Like it' ; s just like so cool. Like it' ; s intergenerational, it' ; s mixed ethnicity, it' ; s mixed class. It' ; s like I' ; ve never been in a space like that for queer and trans Asian Americans. And so it, it' ; s been so powerful to be around such a welcoming community. So I don' ; t want to say all community spaces are the same as you can hear just from the differences. Um, cause like Tadaima was so welcoming. But if you notice, I said we worked separately in our different little ethnic enclaves. We work together - here it' ; s like they - I know people separate - but it seems more like, you know, and I' ; m like, oh, interesting. And I showed my friend that he grew up in the bay area and he saw the photo and he' ; s, he' ; s Korean and Japanese and he saw it and he was like, whoa, this looks like a Sense8 photo. And there' ; s this TV show called Sense8 and it' ; s all about like interconnectedness of humanity. And I was like, I know it looks like Sense8 because, um, yeah, it' ; s like everyone' ; s so different like, but they all are like a family. So, um, so yeah, that' ; s - and in DC I was there for only like 6 months and there were like no Asian Americans. Like it was so like, it was so shitty being Asian American there. But like my friends who were there were API like a few of them, so I didn' ; t feel isolated, but it definitely felt weird being Asian American in DC for sure. Um, and I' ; m sure there are groups there, but I just didn' ; t really know of them. AT: 01:06:13 And what about, um, Japanese American communities specifically? Like - or in Chicago have you gotten involved in any way or what have you learned about it since being here? HK: 01:06:26 Wow. Yeah. Right. Um, I' ; ve learned that there is a community, first off. I was like, whoa, what? And it was, it was so humbling because I am half Irish and my grandparents immigrated from Ireland right after World War Two. Just the irony, one' ; s deported and one' ; s immigrating, but they came like, I think around the time my family got deported actually, but they met in a at an Irish Catholic dance here in Chicago. So I always knew that my Irish side was connected. I never imagined that a Japanese American side could be connected cause I never associated being Asian American in any way with the Midwest cause of my personal experiences in Ohio. So yeah, it' ; s super humbling, like getting to see the community, getting to learn the history, like meeting other Japanese Americans whose families have been here for a while. And I' ; m like, what? Like it' ; s just, it' ; s so eye opening and it makes sense. It makes total sense. But like with most Asian American histories, it' ; s just completely wiped out or invisibilized or not seen as real racism or whatever it is. Um, so it' ; s been really humbling and cool. I don' ; t, honestly, as a trans person, like I don' ; t do a lot of organizing with cis people. Um, so I think part of my hesitation to go at a lot of like Japanese American things is like my own anxiety around being mis-gendered. And then it also is about like - it also is about activist communities, honestly. I took a break from organizing around the time they told me to go away in the bay area and I started doing more like, um, like different types of work, like academia work or like going to a festival for families or like doing, um, what was it like energy work, you know, like learning about different types of healing practices. That' ; s actually something I' ; m more interested in than building JA community. Um, like I' ; ve always loved meeting JAs cause it always feels like you' ; re meeting your cousin or whatever. But like I think like I think where I' ; m at right now as like a trans like gender queer person and then also as like, um, when I care about like with like how do we heal intergenerational trauma. Like for me right now, maybe 30 - or like maybe 10 years from now, I would love to like go to a JACL meeting. Um, but you know, or whatever. And I think, um, how do I say, I think right now like doing different types of healing spaces, like especially with other queer and trans people of color, um, and other mixed race people too, like I think is really important for where I' ; m at right now. So, yeah. AT: 01:09:18 I want to start wrapping up. HK: 01:09:19 Sure. AT: 01:09:19 But I feel like I still have a million questions. HK: 01:09:24 Yeah, that' ; s okay. AT: 01:09:25 Um. I' ; m wondering if you could speak a little bit to how you see, um, the incarceration story. I' ; m like, what are some of the, the key things - or whether it' ; s, you know, the ways in which, um, certain civil liberties were violated and totally removed. I guess I would love to, to hear your thoughts on that, on how it connects to some of the, the current issues that we' ; re experiencing today and certain, um, violations of civil liberties that are happening right now. HK: 01:10:24 I mean, if people aren' ; t able to make the Muslim Japanese connection, then they are not awake or aware at all. Even when I was like 11, when 9/11 happened, I remember being like, I hope they don' ; t do to them what they did to my family. And like, I was 11. Like I barely knew my family' ; s story. You know what I mean? It' ; s like if 11 year old me could make - connect the dots, I' ; m like damn America, like connect the dots and um, whew. My God. And I also, so that' ; s the most obvious connection. Like the AMEMSA community, the Arab, middle eastern, Muslim and South Asian community. Hello. You know, if you don' ; t get that then you' ; re stupid. Cause like that' ; s so obvious. Um, but the other connection that I really get until really learning about my family' ; s immigration - tenuous relationship to immigration and deportation is how much citizenship and the rhetoric we use around like who is a good citizen and like who is loyal. I mean, and ugh, like understanding how just with like the drop of a hat, you can not be a citizen. Like it - that' ; s terrifying. And that' ; s like, it just shows you the construction of citizenship. It' ; s a construction. It' ; s not real. And that - why do you treat undocumented people like shit? Like I don' ; t - why do you scapegoat people? Like I don' ; t - ugh God. So, um, I feel like this is the least like, um, articulate thing I' ; ve done so far. I' ; m just like, wow, fuck everyone. But it really is, um, that' ; s how I feel. Like I feel like I have like guttural reactions to your question. Cause it' ; s the, it' ; s just so - yeah. I don' ; t know why people don' ; t understand why the past isn' ; t connected to the present. I don' ; t know why people don' ; t understand that people of color are human beings. I don' ; t know why people don' ; t understand that whether you' ; re not, you have papers makes you a human being or a person worthy of protection and healthcare and yeah, I don' ; t, I don' ; t, I don' ; t get America. I don' ; t understand why. Yeah, I just don' ; t get it. Yeah. Anyway, I don' ; t even know if I answered your question. I don' ; t get why people hate each other. And I did ethnic studies as a master level and I still don' ; t understand. I can understand the history, but I don' ; t get it. AT: 01:13:03 And what do you see as - um, like what role do do you have or, or responsibility, um, in any way that you identify. So whether that' ; s as a young person, as a queer person of color, um, how like however that is, like, what do you see, what do you see as your role in kind of working on some of these systemic problems? HK: 01:13:39 Yeah, I think we, all of us have different gifts and I know for me Reiki was such a powerful experience that that' ; s why I got attuned and I hope to like learn more about Reiki and practice it with community folks and even people who aren' ; t considered my community. Like I think like how much Reiki has healed me and thinking about the history of Reiki and how it was taken away during World War II and that because of the Japanese woman in Hawai' ; i that it was like preserved. Like, like she was trained before the war and then like had to like basically not train anyone else. Like for 30 or 40 years, she started training people in the ' ; 70s. Um, and how Reiki was outlawed in Japan during U.S. - I' ; m pretty sure I need to re-Google this - during the U.S. occupation. Um, because it was used on the military to heal wounds and to heal, um, to heal injuries for medical things and kind of how she brought it back to Japan, what was taken away. And so I think for me, part of healing intergenerational trauma is having a practice that was taken away during a time period where my family was extremely traumatized and like getting to help - I don' ; t heal people - but getting to facilitate people' ; s healing processes with a tradition that was outlawed because of the very thing that like caused the - probably all my issues or not all of them, I don' ; t know. But like it, it' ; s what it' ; s, it' ; s, that' ; s what healing intergenerational - like that' ; s what I can contribute. And not only give it to like other Japanese Americans, but to anyone who is seeking that kind of healing and to feeling empowered from having it be from the community and what was taken away. Yeah. That' ; s what I can offer. AT: 01:15:30 And, and what kind of, um, what kind of advice would you give to other young people who are interested in, um, you know, getting involved or organizing like that? What, you know, what would you leave with them? Especially given the current political moment? HK: 01:15:56 Um, I don' ; t like, it' ; s funny, I used to love giving advice and I still love it, but the more I learn, the less I want to give advice because I think life is a process and that you' ; ll learn as you go. And, uh, I, I guess the one piece of advice if I could give, would be to forgive yourself, to be kind to yourself and to, to know that the only constant is change. And I wouldn' ; t give them advice. I would just say what comforts me is that even though things are really bad right now - as a historian, it' ; s not as bad as it was. Like, that' ; s why I love history because it grounds me and it helps me see how far people have changed because the only change is constant. Um, and, uh, yeah, I hope, I hope that people, this is, you know, I hope that people see all human beings as human beings and that includes racist white people. Like that is like, that' ; s something I struggle with and it' ; s not my advice, but it' ; s, I, it' ; s just something I want to share that one of the most powerful things I learned in ethnic studies was that white people are human beings. Um, I didn' ; t think of white people as human beings before my master' ; s program, um, in between being politicized in Seattle and San Francisco. I thought of white people as like monsters. And I think Donald Trump and his followers are in the embodiment of like that but to really like change society, you have to change your heart. And part of that change is seeing everyone, even the worst people to try to find their humanity, which is a lot, I know, and I don' ; t ask anyone to do that, but that' ; s just something I try to do that, um, grounds me and, um, tries, tries to help me have more compassion. And I, I say the part about forgiveness because a lot of people are like, oh, I I don' ; t need to forgive myself. But for me, like I think what' ; s remarkable about our community is the way, the way I hear my grandpa talk about forgiveness and forgiving America. And um, the way the Nisei talk about is like, whoa. Like I think forgiveness is so critical to do sustainable work because not only is like you' ; re forgiving yourself for like having a bad breakup, you know, the interpersonal dynamics, but also forgiving - like if you can get to a place like the way the Nisei have, where they can forgive, like whoa, like, and forgiveness all it is it' ; s not excusing what happened - cause I think a lot of people think that' ; s what it means - it' ; s about letting go. This a Lily Tomlin - if I' ; m saying her right quote - it' ; s about letting go of the hope that the past could have been any different. And it' ; s all about letting go of like what you' ; ve been carrying. Um, and once you let that go, you can move forward. So that' ; s why forgiveness is really important and it' ; s easier to forgive other people or your country if you can start by forgiving yourself first for wishing that things were different and that, yeah. Yeah. You' ; re welcome. AT: 01:19:48 Um, is there, is there anything else that I may have missed or that you' ; d want to add, before we wrap up? HK: 01:20:01 Um, not for this interview. Yeah, I think I' ; m okay. Yeah. Like I said, everything I need to say for this set. Yeah. AT: 01:20:08 Thank you so much for coming on. Y. HK: 01:20:10 Yeah, thank you for doing this. This is really important work, so, yeah. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KeaveneyHiroki20170901.xml KeaveneyHiroki20170901.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Keaveney, Hiroki (9/1/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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Takada, Anna
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Kimura, Helen
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5.4 4/19/2018 Kimura, Helen (4/19/2018) 2:03:58 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kimura, Helen Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/334968756/469a0b9614 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/334968756?h=469a0b9614" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: (00:12) This is an interview with Helen Kimura as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago, Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on April 19 2018 at Helen Kimura' ; s residence in Glenview, Illinois. Helen Kimura is being interviewed by Anna Takata of the Japanese American Service Committee. Um, so to start, can you just please state your full name? Helen Kimura: (00:44) Helen Tomoko Hikido Kimura. Hikido is my maiden name. AT: (00:48) Okay. And, um. Can you, to start, can you just tell me about, um, when and where you were born? HK: (00:58) I was born in Centreville, California, um, which is today known as Fremont, California, northern part of California. I believe it' ; s a east of San Francisco in a rural area. AT: (01:15) Then what is your birthday? HK: (01:18) December 20th, 1937. AT: (01:24) And uh, can you tell me about how your parents ended up there? HK: (01:30) Yes. My father came from Wakayama Japan at the age of 20 in 1906. And he was planning to earn some money so he could pull his head up high and return to Wakayama to marry this gal that his parents had arranged for him to marry. However, after being here 10 years and working as a contract vegetable farmer in that area of Centerville, um, he was unable to accrue enough money to hold his head up high and returned to Japan. So he told his parents to please dismiss that first lady that they were arranging for him to marry when he return and sent him a young hearty adaptable young lady. So after 10 years of working here, he sent, my mother came from Wakayama also at the age of 19, so he was, um, 14 years older than she, and I don' ; t know how she endured it, but she was a young girl, um, mixing with the other farmers' ; wives who were older. And she often said that the thing that was most hurtful was the wives would take turns by week to serve lunch to the farmers that were in the field. And when would become my mother' ; s turn or meno' ; s turn, they quietly whisper, oh my gosh, it' ; s going to be, oh meno' ; s week. I wonder what junk she' ; s going to make. And she said she remembers that as the most painful time in her years as a young wife. AT: (03:19) Was that because she was younger.? HK: (03:21) Yes, yes. She was 19 and came from a rather comfortable family. Uh, I think she was one of 10 children. She was in the middle of the town and up to the time she was born she was the only girl. So there were five boys that ahead of her. And then she was the only girl and then years later there was another girl, but she was born amongst boys and I think cosseted. And when she came to the United States and found that she was going to be a farmer' ; s wife, she' ; d never done anything like that before. But that was something to get used to. And she worked alongside my father in the field doing squat labor that, that tomatoes and celery and very hard labor. She did I think have about seven pregnancies but only bore four children. And consequently my siblings are very much older than I. When I was born, my eldest brother was 19, my second brother was 18, and then my mother had several miscarriages and then, my sister was 12 and a half years older than I. Then I was born like an oops baby or a caboose or late, very late one child. So my mother was a 41 and my father was 55 something like that. There was 14 years difference between them. AT: (05:01) So, uh that puts you at the, the youngest of four children? HK: (05:06) Yes. AT: (05:11) And, so your siblings, um, were they also born in Centerville? HK: (05:19) Yes, I was the only child that was born in a hospital. The others were all midwives at home and I was breach so she had to be rushed to the hospital and that. But definitely they were having a hard time reviving me and I always joked with my father because he said the doctor asked me [?], I may only only be able to save one, your wife or the baby? And he said, of course, save my wife. So I would always kid my dad. You were going to let me go? AT: (05:55) Um, can you tell me a little bit about, um, uh, well, do you first, do you have any memories of Centerville? As a child? HK: (06:08) I do remember when I left I had a close girlfriend and um, when I left, my mom said to take all your toys and all your dresses, which weren' ; t many, do a dab. And I took her, took these to her and she asked me, well, why are you giving me these things? And I said, I' ; m going away. And I thought it was an adventure. I had never been on a train. And so, uh, she says, well, okay, when you coming back? And I says, I don' ; t know. I do remember that. And then she grabbed me and hugged me and cried. Another thing I remember is, um, sitting in vegetable crate boxes at the end of a row. My mother would be working towards me at the end of, I would be sitting in this play pen light type of thing in a crate box at the big bond and on, and my mom would work towards me. And then when she' ; s going next, the next row, she picked up this crate with me and it take it to the end of the next row. And when I fuss, she wouldn' ; t say, I' ; m coming, I' ; m coming, you know. And sometimes she' ; d give me a celery to cook, bite on. But um, and I do remember a neighbor, my mother' ; s church neighbor and friend, um, they had a, a gal that was a teenager and she would come over to pick me up and they were the Nemoto family, many children. And she was like a surrogate parent doing, she come to pick me up, take me to her home with her big family and I get dinner there. And even when we moved to Chicago, I went to visit her all the way from the south side to the north side. I mean, she was that very much close to me. AT: (08:13) And before the war broke out. What, what were your siblings doing? Were they in school or anything on the farm? HK: (08:24) My second brother was eighteen years older than I, ah, was graduating from San Diego State College and, uh, went immediately into the MIS military intelligence service. So I don' ; t recall even seeing him while we were being rounded up to go to camps. My older brother was working in the San Francisco grocery store and typical of the culture, the eldest son of a family in Japan is responsible for the aging parents. So he was working to augment the income. My younger brother, the younger one, was able to go to college. My sister was still a teenager and I was this little late born kid. And I do remember the story my mother told me. She said, um, when I knew I was going to have another baby you so much later than the other children, I didn' ; t know how I was going to tell your brother who was 19 years older and he was working in San Francisco as in a grocery store. And so, uh, when he came home for the weekend, she said, I sat down with him and cleared my throat and girded myself to tell them that I was pregnant. And so she said, I blurted out that, uh we' ; re going to have a baby. He said, who? She said your father and I and he took a breath. And then he said, oh, that' ; s great in Japanese. He said, here I am busting my butt working in a grocery store, thinking I' ; m going to have to support you because you guys are getting old. But if papa could make a baby I don' ; t have anything to worry about. And she said that made her more embarrassed than even telling him the news. And I guess that' ; s kind of relationship our family had just kind of joking around since that was, she' ; s, she relayed that to me and I thought that was really cute. AT: (10:39) What are the names of your siblings? HK: (10:41) The oldest was Mickey Owen and he went by Mike and the second was, um, Kenji, but he received many of names. He was George, he was Ken. And when he was in the service, he had the name of Pancho because he looked kind of Hispanic and he had this, um, mustache and he does look kind of Hispanic. And when he came home from the services, these phone calls would come in and ask, you know, is Pancho there? And I said " ; who?" ; So I asked him, ah, they gave me the name of Pancho. AT: (11:20) And your sister? HK: (11:22) My sister is Kayo, k, a, y, o and she adopted the name of Mae when she started school, Mae. Kayo Mae. AT: (11:36) And, so Mickey or Mike was. HK: (11:42) Mike. AT: (11:42) Mike was working, uh Kenji was in school. HK: (11:47) Military service, he was in the ROTC, so he was recruited right away. AT: (11:50) And um, so can you tell me about what you know about your family' ; s experience with the quote unquote evacuation and. HK: (12:01) Going back to what, I' ; m sorry? AT: (12:02) The, the quote unquote evacuation. HK: (12:05) Evacuation. Well, Kenji was in the army. My brother was angry because he wanted to join the army, but at that time they were restricted. So, um, I do remember when there was a big to do with the FBI' ; s coming to search our homes and my mother crying. I didn' ; t know why she was crying uh, and my father, uh, was being interrogated and for possible suspicion, but there was nothing that they could pin on him. And we were rather poor. So we didn' ; t have cameras or electronic things that they were looking for and they really searched hard. Um, then I remember uh, going to packing our bags and my mother packed nothing but food in my suitcase, fruit and nuts, so whatever she could find, cause she didn' ; t know what we were going and she layered me in clothes and I wouldn' ; t look like a little swaddling bundle walking towards the bus. I remember my girlfriend coming to the bus with her mom to say goodbye and she told me get a window seat and I says, okay. So I went to get an in-window seat, but all the windows were blocked so you couldn' ; t see out or in. So I wanted to get off the bus to wave goodbye to her, but they wouldn' ; t let you out of your seats either. That' ; s the last I remember off leaving Centerville. There is one other thing I recall when my brothers were all um, living at, living together in that house that my father kind of put together with his friends. It was a two bedroom. I log log cabin, I' ; d say. That was a outhouse. And um, my brothers would argue whose turn it was to sprinkle the floor because my father didn' ; t have enough money to put the florian, so it was kind of dirt and keep the dust down. They had to sprinkle the floor. And then. AT: (14:35) With what exactly? HK: (14:36) Water. AT: (14:36) Oh, oh, oh. HK: (14:37) And I remember my mother always yelling at the boys. Stop it! You know, it' ; s your turn. You did it last time. And the funny things like that, I remember, I stayed out of the fray, of course, I was too young. But, uh, I remember that. AT: (14:55) And um, so you, I, you were, you were quite young, you were four, about four years old. In your family lives. Um. But you, you, do you remember your friend Adele? Is that? HK: (15:11) Adele. AT: (15:13) A, Adele, HK: (15:15) Uhm, they, they owned a, I think, they owned a dairy farm. And she was a little older than I, I think I was rather precocious because I had such older brothers and sisters and I' ; m watching whatever they do. Um, and my friends were a little older. I just hung around with them. AT: (15:39) Would you happen to know what, um, at the time before the war broke out, kind of what the demographics of Centerville was? Were there other Japanese American families there? HK: (15:51) Yes. Most of them were vegetable farmers. Some of them had nice homes, and you know, better than ours. Frame homes. The bigger the family like Nemotos had more children to work with the farms, et cetera. So their income was a little better than those that didn' ; t have that many children. Um, I knew we had a barn and we had a chicken coop in front. I remember that clearly because when you had to have chicken for dinner, they would hack off the head and the chickens would fly around. I remember that. I remember the outhouse. But other than that, not too much of the physical, it wasn' ; t allowed to go wandering off by myself. So I was pretty kept confined to certain areas in just a few friends that they would let me visit. Never too far away. I wasn' ; t in school yet. So, but I think there were other, I don' ; t know if all the farmers that farmed with my dad on this leased farm lived in the area that we always saw them. And uh, they had trucks, pickup trucks they would pile into. So I don' ; t know if they came from various areas that they were picked up, but I saw them frequently. AT: (17:24) And uh, do you know if there were any, um, Japanese school or. HK: (17:32) Well, I know my brothers and my sisters went to school and uh, I saw their class pictures. There were other Japanese kids in there. I think they also went to um, a Japanese school on a weekend. AT: (17:52) And so at home, was Japanese the language that was spoken? HK: (17:56) In the, in the house, yes, amongst the parents, with the parents. But with my brothers and sisters, it was all English. So I don' ; t have a strong command of the adult Japanese that they did when I was more half and half. And My mother spoke half and half. Um, I could a lot of the Isseis, they didn' ; t say gyunyu which is milk, you know, they say miruku, you know, um, in the vegetables we' ; d call spinach. And I have a very, very funny story about my mom when she came to Chicago, which I don' ; t know what it would be proper to say it, but you know, she was combining what she learned in the factory and Japanese becasuse ...[?] very interesting, to say the least. AT: (18:46) We' ; ll, will, we' ; ll get there. HK: (18:49) You can edit it out. AT: (18:53) Um, was Your family religious at all? HK: (18:55) Yes. Um, I was raised in a devout Christian family and I did ask my mother, how did you become a Christian? And my father was here first, he came when he was 20 and he said he learned English by going to the Christian churches in the evening, which taught English. So his main reason for going to the church in the evenings was to learn English. And then when my mother came, he told her that if you wanted to learn English, go to the Christian churches. And when both of them were going to the church to improve their English, they started thinking about the religion. And there were some Japanese Issei Christians that were part of the membership became part of the membership and was sort of recruiting and proselytizing to the newcomers. And according to my mom, she said she was attracted to the Christian faith because in her lifetime up Buddhism or Shintoism was more a way of life. They didn' ; t have Sunday school at that time to learn about, um, what, what deity, uh, responsibilities they have, what responsibilities or deities had other than when someone died, you had a little shrine and you left some food for them and for your ancestry. But she said, I didn' ; t get the feeling of anything for us that Christianity gave us. And at that time I needed something to hang on to, to live this new life that I had. And both she and my father felt that the, uh, Christian religion, which had an afterlife, uh, appealed to them and the faith would help us get through the daily fate [?], would help us get through the difficulties that they knew they were going to encounter. And that my, my mother particularly was encountering at that time. So I think at her young age, she was very vulnerable to grasping onto something or that would help her. AT: (21:26) Umm. HK: (21:27) And my father supported her. And at one time she was so depressed and her life as a farmer' ; s wife, not having any other ladies her age that she said she cried. And my father said to her, there' ; s only one other job I could think of that I could transfer to. And that would be in Los Angeles. I think it was Japan town. Um, where should, he had a distant cousin that was managing a boarding house. So if you want to, we can go there. And that' ; s where she became pregnant with the first two boys and she said her daughter, her job was, it was a boarding house with very transient people came and went and it was cleaning up after these trenching people and the chamber pots that were there. And she says, being pregnant and the boys were 18 months apart. She said it became unbearable. So after my second brother was born, she says, I don' ; t think I can do this. I' ; m Mama [?] every day. And I still have to do the job. So he said, well, the only other recourse is to go back to Centerville and take up farming again. And she says, yes, I' ; ll do that. And so she was sort of locked into that life and she bored well and then, as it started getting on their feet, that' ; s when the war broke out. AT: (23:19) So um. Going from there. Can you kind of take me through what happened to your family during the war? HK: (23:28) Oh, from, from the time we left Centerville. We left Centerville, we boarded, boarded this bus and I heard a Japanese gentleman behind me in Japanese say, I think we' ; re going to the camp for a racetracks. I just heard racetracks and Japanese. And I turned to my mom and I said, oh, I think we' ; re going to the racetracks. We' ; re going to see some horses. And I told her in Japanese, you know, we' ; re going to see some horses, and she looked at me, she says, no, and you couldn' ; t see out of the windows. So when we alighted indeed, we were at the camp for racetracks. And when we got off the bus, I remember all these soldiers standing in a line in front of us, barricading us from going forward, but follow the line and go to this. I don' ; t know if I, this' ; s a [?] stall or a pen, but they had told my mother and I heard pick up a bag, I think it was a burlap sack and fill it with the hay. And I remember turning to my mom and say, see, we' ; re going to go feed the horses. And she said, no, we' ; re not. And I did ask her then why are we filling the hay in these bags? And she says, that' ; s where mattress and this is what we' ; re going to live. And we went and um, went to one of the barracks that were built, but my girlfriend lived in a stable and I played with her a lot. [?] Sometimes I sleep at her place, sometimes I sleep in the barracks. And I distinctly remember the barracks had the ceilings, they were pete and they were open at the top and you could hear everything, all the rooms down this barracks, um, what was going on. If a kid was being spanked and disciplined, you could hear all of that and then our parents would use that to deter us from doing anything naughty. You know, see he' ; s getting spanked. If you don' ; t, if you' ; re not good, that' ; s what happens to you. It' ; s a lot of times I go over to my girlfriend' ; s place and stay with her and stable, which was really worse conditions, terrible. But we didn' ; t know any better. I do recall, um, the, uh, food was served the mess hall was in the grandstand of the race tracks and we stood in long lines, the mess hall lines. And my father built a little carrier that' ; s like a pizza carrier. It had, it was a, um. It was a wooden peaked carry case that had a handle on top all out of wood and had a sliding door and there was a tray and he would go and get my meal and bring it back in that so that I wouldn' ; t have to stand in the lines. Especially if it were raining or you know, it was inclement weather. AT: (26:47) So he' ; d bring it back to the barrack. HK: (26:48) He bring it back to the barrack and then I eat in the barrack. AT: (26:53) And were you, so um, Kenji was serving, so he probably wasn' ; t there. HK: (26:58) He was not there at all. AT: (27:00) Ah, your sister and your oldest brother? HK: (27:02) They were there in Tanforan. We were there in Tanforan for six months while they were building the camps. And then we were told to get on this train. I don' ; t remember a hearing where we were going. I was very excited because I' ; d never been on a train and it took two nights in one day. I remember that. All the windows were again were all blocked. And to me it was an adventure. I got to sleep on it, you know, things that I' ; d never done before. And when we alighted it was in this desert area, um, the buses picked us up or some of them, some of them were put in pickup trucks and then we drove. Okay. I can' ; t remember how far but came to this desert plateau in Utah outside of Salt Lake City. And I' ; m with delighted. I thought I was at the beach and, um, I guess I didn' ; t really take notice of the bob wires. I knew there were a lot of black paper buildings. I don' ; t even think I noticed the centuries that were posted. But I learned from my husband when I, after I married him, and we were talking about our first impressions of our camp, he went to Manzanar and he said, you thought it was the beach? And I said, yeah, I mean, I always wondered what the beach was like. And I said, what did you think? And he said, well, that' ; s the first time I was really disciplined by my mom. She slapped me. He said, why? He says, I was really mad that they kept shuffling us around. I couldn' ; t bring my dog, who was, you know, my favorite friend and pet. And so now we come to this desert of Manzanar. And he said, I asked my mom, what are we doing here? And she said, we' ; re being protected. And he said, I looked at her and I said, that' ; s a lie. And that' ; s when he got his slap across the face. And she said, why do you say that? And he says, Mama, if you' ; re being protected, you see those rifles in those centuries up there, they would not be pointed in. They would be pointed out. And I asked him, how did you know that? I mean, I didn' ; t even look up there cause I was pretty sure he was two and a half years older than I. And he said, well, when I play cowboys and Indians, you' ; ll never protecting anybody by pointing a rifle at the person you' ; re protecting. I said, oh. And I used to tell my children, he had my respect from that day on, this is a smart guy. But, um, I do remember it just being wide expanse of sand. And I ran and took off my shoes and ran in there and I think I was happy. And I, I do remember the barracks and my sister, my brother, my father and I, and my mom lived in one, I think it was about maybe 15 by 20. We had one of the larger ends, and I know the pot belly stove because I would accompany my brother to go get the number to fill the pot belly stove. And then there was one light bulb, bare light bulb right near the stove and the blackout curtains my mother made. And uh, the army cots that we slept on. I do remember going to the bathroom little later on, um, in the middle of the night. And this is another thing I learned later on that was so naive. I told my sister, I said, you know, it' ; s really nice when you go out to the bathroom at night and the light comes in and shows you your way. And that' ; s when she said, no, they' ; re not showing you your way. Those are the search lights. They don' ; t, you know, you' ; re not supposed to be roaming around and looking for people that are trying to escape. I said, oh, that' ; s, that' ; s still nice. They show me the way through, go to the bathroom. But prior to that, my father had built a little chamber pot. He left when I was on the younger end, but as I got older, I didn' ; t want to sit on that anymore. AT: (31:53) It' ; s [?] is probably around the time that you deep potty trained and learn how to use it toilet. HK: (31:57) Yes, yes. But he didn' ; t want me to go walking out in the middle of the night going by myself. So he made this and of course, I really outgrew that right away. I' ; m a big girl and it' ; d be like my sister, you know. AT: (32:14) Um, so how long was your family in Topaz HK: (32:20) Uh, I' ; d say three and a half years. We went in in April, 42 and came out in December of 45. So, um, and I remember a lot of the things my mother told me when I was in camp, I was still, when I first entered too young to even go to kindergarten, which was held in one of the barracks. Um, and she would tell me, I' ; m working in the mess hall. Your dad is working, digging the ditches for the drainage system. Prior to the time he got a stroke. But, um, your older brother who' ; s waiting to join the army, uh, would be a, um, like a migrant farmer. The farmers would come pick up these young guys in pickup trucks and they go out for the day and earn a few pennies and then come back just to kill the time. And my mom would tell me, now you are all alone. You know there' ; s no one watching you, no one supervising you. I' ; m busy. That' ; s working. This is just in school. So you have to be a good girl because there are many eyes watching you. And one of the biggest problems here is idleness, if nothing else to see or do. So if they see some kid in trouble, they' ; re going to tell the parents so they' ; re not going to blame you if you' ; re naughty, they' ; re going to blame me. And years later I keep thinking of that saying how wise to teach young children to be responsible for their own actions. I saying it, it' ; s going to impact the most dearest thing in your life, which were your parents and I think many, many children that were young and in camp were told that it' ; s sort of cultural, don' ; t bring shame on the family, et Cetera. So on the whole, I think we were pretty well behaved, pretty, primarily the girls. And um, I do recall one time when some of the older girls be friend of me and they, my mom is to have a prayer meetings in our little room and there was this old man, Mr Kakimaru and he catered to me. There weren' ; t too many young children amongst his peers, you know. And so he would always give me candy or you know, was very solicitous of me. And these girls who are older than I, they were probably 9, 10 and they, many of the um, entries with stand in this long PX line to buy something in the PX store. And um, AT: (35:19) PX? HK: (35:19) It was the, um, I can' ; t remember the name of what it was run by the military, and you buy sundries, little things [?], toothpaste and stuff like candy and um, these entries were all standing in line and these girls are telling me, that' ; s Mr. Kakimaru he' ; s always so good to you, why don' ; t you go up there and ask him for some money? Then, maybe we could buy some candy. And I didn' ; t know what to do with their, these were my friends, they were older, you know. So she pushed me up, I went up to him and he said, come like this, go up to him asking for some money. So I went up and um, I don' ; t know what he said, but I know I said, can I have some money to buy some candy? And the ladies that were standing behind him heard this, true to form of what my mother told me, and he gave me a nickel or something and I ran back and gave it to the big girls. That evening, um, and that evening I was also supposed to go to um, Japanese language school. And that evening my mother heard from the neighbors that your child went up to Mr. Kakimaru and begged for money. Well, my mother came up to me and did you do that? I says, well, yeah, because the girls said, you know, Mr. Kakimaru was telling me to come over and they figured that he' ; s going to give me something. So they said, ask for a nickel or, I can' ; t remember. And so that' ; s what I did. And she said, didn' ; t I tell you, you have, you have to be a good girl and you don' ; t go begging. And I must' ; ve been about five. And so she said, which hand did you put your hand off for him? And I said, this hand. My sister had just come home from school and I don' ; t, I still don' ; t know the product that my mother used to use for [?]. [?] was, it was like a little moss that you put on achy places for arthritis and you put it on there and then you light it and it would just smolder and give you heat. And I knew she used to use that on her shoulders or whatever ached. So she told my sister to hold me, she put me on the, on the cod, just hold her and just make sure her hand stays out and she says, put your thumb up. And My mother put this thing on my knuckle here, it was, looked like a piece of moss and she lit it. And I just think the thought of the match scared the heck out of me and I was crying and she said don' ; t move. And after it was over, I did have a scar for many many years. I don' ; t recall it hurting that much or whatever, but it was like a little blister I guess. And it became like a little scar and I had that til I was in high school. And that was a definite reminder to always behave. Don' ; t do anything naughty. But I didn' ; t know I was really doing anything naughty because I just, these older girls, you know, should know right from wrong, but I remember that so clearly. AT: (38:54) Well, and you had mentioned that your um, your family everyone was kind of out doing their own thing and even at such a young age you were kind of left to your own devices. HK: (39:07) Yes. AT: (39:07) So does that mean that you were to stay in the barrack all day, or what was. HK: (39:12) No, I just stay, I, I, I would go walk from my barrack to the next block, three blocks over and play with my friends. Most of my friends were little older. Um, there weren' ; t too many that were my age whose parents were working. Um, so if I didn' ; t like what was going to be served at my mess hall, I would ask, I would tell my mom, I' ; m going to go eat with Misako. It' ; s okay. So I have a lot of freedom. I would go to another place and another girl' ; s apartment apartment and play with her. I remember this one girl Ayako, she her, um, her father had a lot of arthritis and a treatment for that would be for her to walk on his back. It' ; s sort of like a flir [?] with her massage and her weight. And I remember doing that. So she says, why don' ; t you take a turn? So I would walk on her father' ; s back, back and forth. We' ; d entertain yourself by going to different blocks. Um, this lady that I told you, uh, was sort of like a surrogate mother or a sister to me lived in the next block. AT: (40:37) And her name was ... ? HK: (40:37) I go see Chie-chang and she' ; d entertained me. We worked in a little garden that she was planting, just [?] roam all over. The thing I do remember was the little kids, of my age and my block, we' ; d always carry a twig or a stick that we found in our little pocket or belt loop the boys and have it in the belt loop and someone would shout, snake time, snake time and we would all run to the laundry facility and it was a long room, maybe 25 feet long. And they had all these ropes we could hang your sheets and things after you wash them. And that meant that a rattlesnake. So snake weight the weight into the laundry room and we' ; d all line up shoulder to shoulder and we get our little twig out and then you put it under this rattlesnake or any snake and you walk it over til it fell off. Then the next kid would put his up and we do that till we got it out to the desert. That' ; s a game that I' ; ll never forget all we, when we' ; d hear that, we just gravitate to what [?] saying that. Another game was, um, catching dragonflies. You have dragon fly races. And my mother gave me, uh, uh, the envelope, not a pimple [?] about, spool of thread. And I called that in my pocket and we get an ice dragon fire. Someone would hold it by the wings and we tie this a thread very lightly around your body and let it out. And that would be like a Kite. Now most of the dragonflies would go round and round trying to get free. But when they say, okay, races on, ready, set, go, you let go of your thread and the dragon fly that when straightest won, never, no prizes or anything but just the honor of your dragon fly went straight and they all said, well, there' ; s certain ways you can tie the thread that makes them go straight. And you know, all those things that people made up. But I remember that very clearly. And um, the toads we used to bring home and my mother would have a fit, but uh, the um, ditches that my father then men were digging for the drainage system in the desert. It' ; s very hot and they would get up to a hundred degrees, you have no fan or ventilation. And then there was a rain, these ditches would fill up with muddy water and we take off our shoes, pull up our dresses and jump into them and just [violently treading and splashing sound], and interestingly, our parents, my parents never scolded me. And I did ask her many years later, I said, you know, when I think of how muddy we were, she said, well, it was your form of entertainment. You know, there were no swimming pools at that time. So we all just felt that this was recreation for you. And I don' ; t know any of the mothers that be rated their children unless they were older and knew better and got there at school pants, all dirty. But we know how to protect our clothes and the girls just put their things in her panties and winning [?] up to here. AT: (44:19) Were you ever up school age or did you ever graduate school in camp? HK: (44:23) Yes. Um, I went in at four and a half and I don' ; t remember kindergarten so much, but I do remember going into a barrack and there was a long bench much like our tarots [?]. And we sat on our knees. There are no desks and we said elbow to elbow with the next student. And we colored or did whatever we had to. And my teacher' ; s name was Mrs. Seal. And she came from the, uh, outside of the community. And if you were a professional Japanese American prior to coming in, you could teach, or you could be a doctor for very small amount of payment just to keep busy. But, um, there were quite a few Caucasian teachers that came in. We had a Sunday school there. And, um, the Christian children, we' ; d go to Sunday school and I remember these big picture book with Jesus sitting in the middle and, uh, the different ethnicities of children around him. And this will lead to a story that I had when I came out of the camps, which is so vivid in my mind. But to me it was how everybody lived. I didn' ; t complain. I thought it was fun. I had a lot of freedom. You gain confidence because you can take care of yourself. Um, and I think that benefited me as I came out of the camps and adapted to various types of, uh, communities. And, um, actually when I look back, a lot of the values I received from my parents examples, quiet examples, uh, of forbearance, of discipline, persevering just unconsciously I think becomes part of your attitude and value system. And when I look back, I think my life has really been a string of blessings because of that early experience. So I don' ; t think I was negatively impacted. I was too young. But my brother did finally go into the army. The second one when they opened the enlistment and I later learned from my husband whose brothers also went in that, um, one of the bigger camps, I think it was Manzanar had, um, students that were, um, young people that were key base, you know, key base are, and came back after doing the elementary school in Japan under their grandparents' ; tutelage, were very upset to be put in these camps cause they had a dual loyalty in a way, or dual background and the Japanese American kids that never went to Japan didn' ; t know anything about Japan. We' ; re saying, we want to join the army. You know, why don' ; t they let us join the army and the, little bunch of key bay kids are the no no kids were saying, what do you want to do that for? You know, you' ; re American citizens, we' ; re all American citizens and were imprisoned here? I don' ; t know why you guys want to go fight for them. This is what they did to you. So there was this conflict according to my husband and his brothers were, of course, wanting to go into the army as my brothers were in my camp. We didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have that type of a conflict. But I think because of this big conflict in this one camp, it resonated with the government that think, okay, we don' ; t want this infecting all the camps so we will open the enlistment. And that' ; s when you saw the mass exodus of all these army aged kids and that' ; s when my older brother was able to go out and serve his country. And interestingly, I did ask my mom, did you, did you have to give them permission? And she said yes. And I said, did you have some feelings about that? She said, no. I said, well, why not? Did you have some animosity towards the people that put you here and now your sons are going to give their lives for them? It' ; s just, no, this is your future. And they are fighting for their future and your future. Why would I stop them from doing that? And little things like that come back to me, which makes me feel that they sacrifice a lot of what they didn' ; t tell us, kept it in. I' ; m sure they had feelings of the emotional trauma, being uprooted at losing everything you worked for and then your sons want to go and fight for their forefathers. You know, and I did read some books where some infantry men that were, uh, stations, Japanese Americans that were stationed in, um, the battalions with the battalions in Hiroshima or some of the islands would come across somebody that could be their relative. And I think about that. But my, my, um, brother that was in the infantry was not in Japan, the older one who was in MIS. Um, I think he communicated a lot with him, but he was more in Australia and some other places. But I would, would like to ask them, you know, did you know of anybody that that happened to? AT: (50:35) Do you remember when Mike left camp to join? HK: (50:40) Well I don' ; t know what the year was, let' ; s see, we were in there at 1942. AT: (50:47) I believe 43 is the year. HK: (50:50) Yeah. I, he went in as soon as it opened up. I know that because I have very little memories of him in camp with us eating with us, sleeping with us. All I know is that in the early part he would get on a pickup truck and go somewhere and was happy to get a little bit of money to pay, go to the PX and buy something. AT: (51:17) Umm. And you, you actually just mentioned, you touched on something that I was curious about, um, did your family continue to, to eat together and kind of function as a family union HK: (51:28) No, that' ; s, that' ; s where you lost all community within your family. Um, my mom is working in the mess hall. My father had had a stroke. Um, I would find they didn' ; t want to sit with anybody. No, there wasn' ; t a time where we' ; re going to eat at this time. Be there. You just came. And if you happen to be with your family at the same time, you could sit if there was room, but they were like picnic tables, so you kind of have to save a spot, which no one did. And I just don' ; t remember eating with my family. I was very happy to eat with Sea, a man, older man, who I would chit chat with. It didn' ; t matter if he was older or my age. I did like to eat with my friends at lunch time. Dinner time, usually, was at our [?] because it was getting dark but lunchtime I would eat with my friend Misako, and uh, Yoshiko and go to their block. And those are people that we kind of knew in the Centerville area. And we went to the same camp. AT: (52:49) Did you, I know this, this is a very specific thing to remember, but um, do you ever remember any conversations with your parents, you know. As a child about, about the situation and kind of what was happening to your family? HK: (53:09) No, that' ; s one thing I don' ; t remember. Um, because I was so young and I didn' ; t even think my mother talked a whole lot with my sister who was a teenager. I think they had more conversation with the two older boys when they were younger, but, um, they weren' ; t fluent in English. By then I, English was my first language and the only time I remember having conversations with my mother was when it was a directive or like the punishment. No chit chat or life lessons. Um, how are you doing in school or anything like that? No. Did you, did you go to Japanese school today? You know, um, did you sweep the floor? More directives. No real conversations. And that went on pretty much most of our lives. And when we came out, you were so involved in moving forward. You have your Caucasian friends, you have your Nisei peers, you' ; re doing this, going into this. Um, they had to Japanese speaking church, her group would come over for prayer meetings at our house. I don' ; t interfere and say hello. I spoke a lot to my sister who was 12 years older than I. AT: (54:48) And, um. Looking back now, uh, in what ways would you say, ummm, or, in what ways do you think that the, the whole evacuation and camp experience impacted your family? Like what? HK: (55:12) Well, I never heard any complaints from my brothers. They talked a lot about their army experiences and again, I think all of us, we were focused on our futures. They knew that eventually they' ; re going to get out of there. I didn' ; t, I thought this was how everyone lived. Um. And my brothers were gone throughout our incarceration. My sister was a teenager when she graduated high school. She was a, sponsored by the white single family in Lansing, Michigan if you wanted to go to college. Um, she and her friends, these younger sisters of the lady that I thought was my surrogate mother from Centerville, she had two [?] younger sisters, they were about my sister' ; s ages, and um, they all decided they want to go to Michigan State University. So if you had a sponsor out there where you could be a domestic to fulfill your years of residency requirement, they would, house you and feed you. And I don' ; t quite know how the tuition was paid, but I think, uh, I, I, I have never asked about that, but they must have gotten some help. And I don' ; t know if these sponsors were going to partially help them with the government' ; s help or whatever, something was, uh, prepared for them. So my sister left when she graduated, went with the girlfriends to Lansing, Michigan. And unfortunately she was working for about, maybe seven months and she came down with tuberculosis. Now when she was in the camps as a high schooler, she did volunteer like a candy striper at the infirmary. And I didn' ; t know this, but I think tuberculosis was one of the diseases that was running around there. So when she came down with tuberculosis in Lansing, Michigan, they got, it was a remnant of Topaz. So at that time there were no antibiotics. So she was put in a tuberculosis sanatorium. And, um, while she was there, I just think of the strength of my mother. They had written her saying that my sister may need to have a lung removed and which he signed up for two [?] procedures and my mom said, no, I want to see her before I sign anything because at that time, who knows, you know, she might' ; ve died. So she asked me, took me to the war relocation center office and pleaded her case that I need to go see my daughter, she needs this operation and I won' ; t allow it until I see her. And um, and I would have to take my daughter here because there' ; s no one that' ; s going to be able to watch her. So they did relent and I remember this so clearly. I was sort of like her interpreter with words she couldn' ; t remember. And I think that was about five and a half. And we got on this train and it was a freight train with all GIs sitting on the floor. And we were probably the only females on the floor facing them. And my mom made me this dress, a skirt out of the blackout curtains and her, took one of her blouses, a slips and maybe a blouse. Cause we were going on a train to Michigan. And, um, we sat on the floor and [?] my mom said, no, don' ; t drink a lot of water because I' ; m not going to go through two freight trains to go to the train that has a potty that will be pitstops. So just hold it, don' ; t drink a lot of water. And the other mancho she would always say is put your legs down but your skirt between your legs, put your dre, constantly because of a little child, you' ; re fiddling around and you didn' ; t wear, girls didn' ; t wear pants in those days. So I remember that so clearly and pitstops in the awfully long and I didn' ; t quite make it. And prior to going on this trip, we had, uh, I had a chance to order things from Sears Roebuck and I ordered flowered cotton panties. And this was the first purchase I had underwear and I was so proud of them. I mean they have different colored flowers on them. And, uh, when I kind of piddled in it and we got off at the pitstop. My mom says [?] panties and I thought she was going to wash them out but she threw him out. I' ; ll never forget that I was sullen. I pouted I wouldn' ; t look at her for the rest of the trip from Utah to Lansing, Michigan and those who are my dearest possessions, they were brand new. And so they' ; re all the more but your dress down but just between your legs. Cause then I had nothing to wear [?]. And she said, I said, why did you throw them out? She says, well we couldn' ; t take these wet things with me. I had nothing to wrap them in whenever it started leaking and I just wouldn' ; t listen to her. And I remember that so clearly. And we were met in Michigan by the Weisenger family and then Mr. and Mrs. Weisenger and they drove us to their home, which to me was like a castle. And it was a white frame house. Two stories, green grass, huge lawn. They had a collie dog. They had a teenage son, Johnny, Johnny Weisenger, and I thought I' ; d died and gone to heaven. I mean all my gosh, my sister' ; s room had her own bathroom. I' ; d never seen a separate bathroom, only was the latrines and you know that we had in the camps and the outhouse when we lived in California and she had a canopy bed [?] like Organdy type of stuff on it, you know, in this thing, and I reach out to [?] live here forever. It was like a princess. And um, we would go, Mrs. Weisenger would take us to the sanitorium every day. We had five days, so four days we could stay there. And then the fish, they would have to travel. AT: (01:02:39) Going back to Topaz. HK: (01:02:40) Topaz, yes. And um, my mom was praying every time I saw her, had a bible out and praying. She asked everybody in the church or Christians friends, please pray for my husband who was in the infirmary. Brace for my boys who were in service. Pray for my daughter who was going to have to have a surgery. Pray that we get there safely. That' ; s all I remember. My mom always in prayer. She would get to see my sister in her room. I have to stay behind the glass because I was a minor. And I remember my sister telling me later, oh my gosh, when I looking out of the glass and see you still going to smile up at me, all I saw were the whites of your eyes and the whites of your teeth because it was all sunburned. And she said, is that right, is that amazing baby sister. And she was as white as snow cause she was so pale and she heard complexsion was lighter than mine. And I just thought she looked like a ghost. And um, we were there for four days every day. And at the end of the fourth day, the doctor came out and he says, I don' ; t know what happened, but I don' ; t think that to my mother, your daughter, we' ; ll need this operation. Of course now my mom became very, very good. Well, you know, her prayers were answered and then we came home at that time there were two Nisei fellows, I don' ; t know. Oh, I think they took, they had a car, they took their sisters to, um, Lansing and then we' ; re going to be driving back. So instead of taking the train, we were able to get her ride with them. That' ; s when I discovered discrimination because they wouldn' ; t let us out of the car when they go into this little storefront to buy a hamburger or a sandwich, you know, and you stay in the car. And then I could see, I asked my mom why I cannot go with Harold. And she said, but because they don' ; t want us in there. And I could see how they were kind of mean to Harold, who was, Harold must' ; ve been about oh 26 or something. And he' ; d come in and I distinctly remember the radio, the song no can do, no can do a mama and a papa say no can do. And that played that over and over from Lansing, Michigan, all the way to Utah. And it must' ; ve been the song of that era and they just played it over and over in New York [?]. It' ; s funny things that you remember, but I do remember having to stop for meals, which was very sparse. And the fact that some people did not like it. I didn' ; t feel that in California, but I did see how they were. Ummm. Seeing slurs, you know, uh, just by the looks in their eyes, they were not very nice to Harold that was going in to pick up on meal AT: (01:06:01) So, this is from viewing from the inside .. trip. HK: (01:06:03) Inside the car. I never got out of the car. AT: (01:06:08) Uhmm HK: (01:06:08) Then, when I had to go to the bathroom, it was in the bushes. AT: (01:06:12) And so when you got back to Topaz, ummm. Around what time, Ummm, was this when your sister was in Lansing? And. HK: (01:06:27) Gosh, let' ; s see, two ... About 44? I' ; m thinking because she was still in there, but we came out. AT: (01:06:39) Oh, okay. HK: (01:06:40) Yeah, she was still in there. And that was another reason why we chose to come to Chicago. There were four reasons, you know, one before they would release you would be to pledge your allegiance to the United States and be willing to go to war for it. And my mom says, my two boys are in the army. Uh, secondly, you had to have a job prospect. Um, big companies like International Harvester, Scott Foresman, we' ; re saying come to Chicago, big clothing manufacturing companies. Um, we' ; re saying because a lot of the ladies could saw and so come to Chicago, we have jobs for you. And thirdly, you had to have, um, a place to live or a sponsor. And my mother' ; s cousin was a doctor and he was recruited a little earlier than our release time from Topaz to, uh, take a professorship at the University of Illinois, a medical campus. So he came out earlier and he sponsored us to come and stay near him because in the apartment building he was in on the south side. Um, there was another doctor who was, uh, from Hawaii and he was going to be going back to Hawaii or vacation or something and his apartment was going to be empty. So I guess my mother' ; s cousin said, you know, my cousin is coming out. Could they stay here for a couple of weeks or so till I can find them a place to live. And indeed we did stay there and we found a big apartment building just about walk-down. Uh, and it was perfect. There was two large u-shaped apartment buildings or the owners were saying, we will rent to you Japanese people. So it was a mixed population but a lot of Japanese people that were coming out of the various camps. So again, it was an ideal situation for me. There were kids my age, there were a lot of young kids whose parents married and started their families and had these babies and young toddlers so I could babysit in this huge apartment building, um, and earn money from the age of nine. So I had a regular babysitting job from nine years old. Uh, our next door neighbor, they wanted to manage a grocery store on the west side of Chicago. So since our apartment was right next to them when their children came home from school, it was my duty to watch them feed them their dinner, which the mother had already prepared because certain nights they stayed open late at the grocery store. And because my parents live right next door, you know, if there was any emergency, I had my parents. So it was an ideal situation. And then I had two families above me with young children. So other times when the parents wanted to go to a JC on dance or something, I would be able to dance, uh, watch their kids or we would bring a lot of the childrens to one apartment and I would babysit them. So it was a good moneymaker for me. AT: (01:10:03) What, uh, would you happen to remember the address or where this. HK: (01:10:06) 3835 South Lake Park Avenue was the u-shaped buildings that we moved into [?]. Most of those kids went with us to [inaudible] grammar school, which was on 40th street, Lake Park, so straight down Lake Park. And throughout going from our 38 all the way at grammar school, all these apartment buildings had some Japanese in them as well as other ethnicities. And I remember I was going to tell you the story the first day I went to school, um, my, my mother went off to her job in a dress factory. My brothers, one of them after he came out of the army, was managing a, cleaners in Detroit with his GI buddy. My, uh, older brother, he was working at International Harvester and my sister was still in the sanatorium. And I remember going to school Okumon [?] school, which was a fairly new school, two stories high, beautiful campus around it. And I went and when my mom came home, I said, mama, you should see my school. And I said, is this heaven? And she said, what? I said, this is heaven? And she says, no, why do you ask that? I said you should see my school. It has all the children of the world and the only relation I had to diversity in such amount was in the picture book during Sunday school. And I said, you know, like that book we used to sing out of in Sunday school, Jesus loves us. They are children, all the children of the world, red and yellow, black and white. I says, you know, when I go to school, I see all these children. And she started crying and I said, what, why are you crying Mama? And she says, um, I' ; m happy for you, but that I kind of felt that that wasn' ; t the truth. And years later when I was in high school and read a book, I had a book, that I read on the incarceration as the first time I read a book on the incarceration and had to give an oral book report. And I told the story and included some of my experience and the questions from the children were so interesting because they, they knew everything about us [?]. They had a regular life and they kept asking, well, what did your parents think? You know, and I realized then, I never really thought to even ask my parents, tell me about how you felt because as a child, you keep moving forward. And um, I went home that evening [?] answering all the different questions and I said, you, I really don' ; t know, uh, parents speak Japanese and I speak mostly English and they' ; re so much older than most parents. I do think I should ask them. So I did go home and talk to my mother about it and it was very vague. You know, I' ; m getting, you know, you just come on and um, I see, you know, there' ; s something that' ; s been in the back of my mind from the first day I went to school at Okumon [?] and I told you about the diversity for kids. And I kind of thought maybe this was heaven and you crying. I said, was that the truth mama? And she said, no. I said, why did you cry? And she said, my big goal in life was to see that I can raise this late born child to adulthood and here we are after the camp experience and you' ; re going to your first real school. And I realized you never saw diversity before. You kind of think that this is like heaven and she said, I felt so derelict in my duty, in my goal, that you had these notions that most children your age, no, they don' ; t even question it. And that hit me and that' ; s why I cried. And I said, isn' ; t that interesting that even at that young age I knew it was shielding something from me. And it wasn' ; t till I was in high school in an all white classroom that their questions brought that to mind and they' ; re probably have a lot of conversations with their families and the families probably tell their parents, tell them what happened to them when they were younger, et cetera. And it was the sort of like a light bulb moment for me. And I remember that so clearly when she said the tears in her eyes, she said, my goal in life was to raise you to adulthood and please [?] let me live until I could raise her to adult eighteen. And interestingly when I did graduate, she had a breakdown. She went into depression and the psychiatrist at that time said, I think this is a delayed menopause, she was so driven to make sure you reached adulthood and after that her, her goal in life was over. And I feel guilty because when I graduated in January of 56, I said, mama, you don' ; t have to work anymore. I had a very good job as a public stenographer at the peoples' ; gas lighting Coke Company. And , I said, you don' ; t have to work anymore. She was working at a cleaners on the west side. One of her church members had a cleaners way on the west side and she would take that bus to the street car every day, five days a week. My father was an invalid. He had a hem, uh, he was Hemiplegic, stayed in the house but thankfully he was able to fend for himself. He could dress himself. He had done a Hemiplegia so he was paralyzed on just my time [?]. But I thought I was doing her a favor and I said, mama, you don' ; t have to work. I got a good job. I will supplement. But my brother was bringing in and my sister was bringing in, you stay home, take care of papa. And it was Feb. I [?] graduated in January. It was about the end of February. And I came home and papa said, I dunno what' ; s a matter with your mom? But she hasn' ; t changed out of her pajamas. She hasn' ; t gotten out of that chair since you left, she' ; s been facing that window. That' ; s when I knew something was wrong. And when my sister came home from, um, steiner school, I forgot the name of it, the synography school at that time, she said, I' ; ve told, I says, [inaudible] mail has been [?] like that all. She doesn' ; t speak and she' ; s a very chatty person. And my sister said, I think we need to take her to the doctor. And we tried to find a Japanese psychiatrist. There was no such thing [?]. So we have to go with an English speaking psychiatrists. And she was an a psychiatric clinic, that unit, inpatient unit of the south side for about four months. She had electroshock therapy and she forget everything. It would put her into Amnesia and then she gradually recovered. And it was an ongoing thing for about a year in and out, in and out. AT: (01:18:31) This is the, uh, 1956? HK: (01:18:35) And thankfully, um, it took her, I' ; d say maybe two and a half years to fully recover, but she didn' ; t have any regression. But every January she would have a regression. It, you could see signs of it coming back again. It' ; s amazing what time does to your brain. She without even knowing that this is a time when she went into depression, I guess memories would come up and would sugar [?] again, another slight visit to the, um, clinic, let you had to go to freshen up there [?], which was that time, they didn' ; t have any drugs for depression and it was this barbaric method of shock therapy. And I remember that very clearly and she wouldn' ; t know a thing when she came home. So I learned at a very young age to be responsible for not only my father who was disabled since camp, but now my mom and my siblings had to go off and make a living and my mother couldn' ; t work anymore. So it was, it was a difficult time, but I think all of that served to benefit me to make something of myself and to go back a bit after I had this wonderful grammar school experience with all my friends that I developed that also came out from the camps that were my age and the diversity of the population in school. That became more and more ethnically diverse by the time I graduated. I did, um, graduate in a winter class somewhere along the line because I' ; m a December baby. I was, um, I have a year or so behind when I came out to camp to start school. So, um, somehow they felt that I should be double promoted or whatever. So I missed finishing school with the kids that I started with, you know, Amy and all those other kids. So I was in a winter class half a semester ahead of them, have a year ahead of them and I graduated and I was so hoping to connect with all my classmates in Hyde Park. But the neighborhood was really changing and my siblings and my mother who were the breadwinners at that time, we were living on the south side [?] that we had to move for my sake because they didn' ; t want me walking that distance by myself. So AT: (01:21:28) What exactly was changing about .. [?] HK: (01:21:30) There were, well, there were more, um, blacks coming in. I remember my brother slept on the, um, we had, uh, we moved several times in this apartment building from a small apartment as income increased. And the last apartment we lived in had three bedrooms. It was a long apartment. My mother and father slept in the small bedroom in front by the kitchen. We had a dining room and then we had a bathroom and my sister and I slept in the larger bedroom that was next to the bathroom. We had an adjoining door and now my brothers, actually it was two bedrooms. My brother slept on the sun porch. AT: (01:22:12) Was this a different building, or just a? HK: (01:22:14) Same building, but they had different size apartments and cause the first department we moved in had one bedroom, one bath and six of us lived in there. When my sister came out, that' ; s the apartment we lived in. My sister and mother slept in the dining room, my father and brother slept in the double bed in the bedroom. I slept in a roll away cocked and when my brother Ken, Kenji came home from Detroit, uh, from working at the cleaners there. He slept on the hideaway sofa in the living room and one bathroom. I didn' ; t know how, when I think back on how luxuriously we grew, you know, my children grew up. How did all those people, my mother, my two brothers and my sister and I use one bathroom, they had to get out to go to work. I was a little later cause I went to school on my own. How did we do it in the morning with this one little bitty bathroom? Unreal. And how we used to live, have dinner at the small kitchen at table and the small kitchen and um, it would be so hot that when the boys came home from work and my father would be roasting, they wear these sleeveless undershirts and the boys would just wear their shorts. I mean they' ; re undershorts cause they' ; re so hot. And my sister would come home from school or Steiner school, put on a pair of shorts and sit there with her bra. My mother comes home from the factory. She would wear a slip, take off her nice dress, just have a slip and put an apron on. And I think about that, you know, didn' ; t think anything of it. And we sit around this little chrome table and here is where I wanted to tell the story about my mom. She would work at this dress factory piecework every puff sleeve she made for a child' ; s dress, she would get a ticket and my job, she' ; d come home with her, [?] full of tickets and she said, you sit at the kitchen table while I' ; m finishing dinner and I want you to paste them in this booklet. Don' ; t lose them because that' ; s my paycheck. That' ; s on Friday. She would get paid and I remember one day she was making dinner and she must have cut a finger or done something. All of a sudden she shouts, Sakana spinach and I said, what did you say, she said, oh, they say that at the factory. Every time things go wrong, they say, Sakana spinach. And I think I was about eating heaven [?]. And I said, um, are you saying son of a bitch? Yeah, they say that all the time. And I ask, Mama. And she said devoted Christian, right? I said, mama, I, I think that' ; s a swear word. I think you' ; re saying son of a bitch. She says, yeah, that' ; s what they say, Sakana spinach. So what does it mean? Sakana spinach, and I said, well, it' ; s a bad word. I don' ; t know of the meaning, all I know it' ; s a bad word. So I said, I don' ; t think you should say it anymore. So when my brothers came home individually from their jobs, I said, you know you, you better go talk to mama and tell her what son of a bitch means. And they said, what did you say? And all of a sudden the attention was drawn to me. And where did you learn that word? Where did you learn it? You don' ; t ever say it, do you, I said no, no. I just know it' ; s, it' ; s a bad word. And mama was saying Sakana spinach and she was mad [laughing sound]. I just thought it sounded like the swear word. I said, I think you' ; d better tell her cause she asked me what' ; s it meaning? And I said, I don' ; t know. So they were too embarrassed to tell mama. AT: (01:26:30) How old were you at that time? HK: (01:26:30) I think I was about 11 and then my, um, sister came home. I told her, uh, she was more understanding and she says, oh my God. So she goes into the kitchen and mama you were saying Sakana spinach, but you know, that' ; s a bad word in English. It' ; s something else and this is what it means. Helen didn' ; t know what it meant and my English name was Helen and so, um, I could, by then I was in the living room doing something and I could hear my mom said, oh, forgive me in Japanese, forgive me Lord. I didn' ; t know what I was saying. I promise I' ; ll never say it again [laughing sound]. And I remember that so clearly because she was shrinking it. And I' ; m looking at my brothers, you know, and then [mumbling and inaudible]. AT: (01:27:21) When you, when your family was in Chicago, were you going to a church here? HK: (01:27:26) Yes. I' ; ve always gone to church. When I lived on the south side, I went to the Alice community center church, uh, with the, um, revered Nishimodo. And that' ; s where some of my other friends that came from the camps, some of them were attending different elementary schools for their style. And that' ; s why I got to know them, that we weren' ; t going to Oakland Wall [?]. They all different, went to Hyde Park. But I got to know other Japanese American kids that were my peers from there. And it was a long walk for me, but I walked all the way from 38 all the way down there. And um, that was the beginning of, of I guess, uh, knowing that, uh, maybe some boys might like you because they would walk all the way. I' ; ll walk you. I said, no, you won' ; t. I live far away. But you know, a couple of them a couple of times when they fall down, how far it was [laughing sound], but it was, it was a time of blossoming and getting to know new people, you know, going into puberty, you know. And then when I moved, um, to the north side to go to high school, um, my mom was very, my parents were very religious and the people that they worshiped within Topaz would meet at each other' ; s places and they moved to Chicago and they were the Issei group and they pulled their money. I don' ; t know how they did it, but bought this church that was a half a block from where our house was in the north side. It was a three story flat that my brothers and sisters and mother pooled their money and bought this three story flat. So when my older brother got married, he lived in one apartment and I thought, you know, when each kid got married, they could have a place to live. The bulk of us lived on the second floor, which was a big apartment. My older brother lived on the first floor after he got married with his family and we rented out the third floor to another Japanese American family and um, that could bring in some income to kind of pay the mortgage. We lived right across the street from the low [?] and Masonic Hospital where I did a lot of nurses aid work, candy striping as earning money. My church was half a block away. The Issei people, um, pulled their money, bought this, uh, church that was a frame old church and the building behind it, which was a sanctuary for the minister. And we have movies of that. Or you could see these Issei men loaded truck going to some churches that were being demolished, bringing stained glass windows of pews, everything to remodel this church. And that was a labor of love just to watch them. And they remodeled the whole place. It wasn' ; t a beautiful church, but it was serviceable. We had the basement Sunday school and then the, the sanctuary the, um, uh, the other, I forgot the [?] name of it, but the building behind it where the minister usually [inaudible] stays and um, use that as Sunday school room too. So I [?] really, um, from the time I moved to the north side was very involved with the church from the time I was a Sunday school teacher to a choir director. I got married there, AT: (01:31:22) What was the name of that Church? HK: (01:31:22) Lake Side at that time, Lake Side Japanese Christian Church on the corner of Sheffield and Wellington. And, um, it was another time of development for me. Uh, we would go, we never went on vacations, but we would have our summer conferences and we would have our conference at Dead Lake Geneva. And, um, every year we would go for a week and, um, see, see a different state, see the lake, those, uh, baptized in a Lake Geneva. It was, it was a fun time plus a time of learning and becoming deeper in your faith. AT: (01:32:14) Were there services in Japanese given those Issei? HK: (01:32:16) It was, the Japanese services were at two o' ; clock in the afternoon. The English service was at, um, 11 o' ; clock in the morning. Sunday school was a 9: 30 in the morning. So I' ; d be there Sunday school at 9: 30. And when I got older, uh, high school level, I taught Sunday school. And then for the church service, at first I would be just a parishioner. Then I became a choir director. And then I worked with the youth chorus, the teenagers, and we' ; d have a, we' ; d seen more upbeat instead of the usual Hams. And um, it was, it was a wonderful time for me. And I remember I was so active in the church. Most of my peers were working, you know, uh, some of them were able to go to college, but, um, I graduated when I, I married when I was 26 and which was, uh, five years, six years after I take my first job. So they always saw me working, you know, I had my job at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago. And when I said that I was going to get married, they threw this huge bridal shower for me. And I remember this lady coming up to me and she said, oh, I' ; m so happy for you Helen. We thought you were going to be our career girl, which is a politically correct way in those days. I' ; m saying, you know, we thought you were going to be an old maid, but I will always remember that cause it wasn' ; t till years later that I equated it with being an old maid, but I thought it was so nice. They do this huge bridal shower for me and I got married there. AT: (01:34:18) And where at, you said you were living in nearby. So where were you living? HK: (01:34:21) That was a 43 Wellington Avenue near Halsted and Wellington. Um. AT: (01:34:29) And, what year ... HK: (01:34:29) And right down the street from Ivan whole restaurant theater, you probably don' ; t remember that. Wellington and Broadway. AT: (01:34:38) Umm, and um, what year was that that your family moved there? HK: (01:34:41) Um, nine, let' ; s see 52. AT: (01:34:49) So this was when you were in high school then? HK: (01:34:51) I just graduated a grammar school. It was a, a January graduation, it was a winter graduation and so, uh, I moved immediately to start school on the north side. And this is another, I think a wonderful story of my life. I was so upset that I couldn' ; t go to Hyde Park with all my friends and I cried for two weeks and I went to my youth pastor and I said, I, I re, I' ; ll take a train, I' ; ll take the street car, whatever I want to go to school with my friends to Hyde Park. That was further south then Oaken wall [?]. And my pastor said, no you can' ; t because you' ; re out of a district. And I had heard that some kids were going to school high schools out of their district by borrowing a friend' ; s address. So I told my mother that and she says, absolutely not. You are not using and lying and using someone else' ; s address, this' ; ll be a good school for you. And that' ; s when I talked to my pastor and he said, Helen, this will be repiphany. I said, what' ; s that? He described it to me and he said, it' ; s going to change the whole course of your life, but it would be dependent on what choices you make, so make sure you make the right choices. And I had no choice. So I went immediately to the school and kids that were transferring in from a different, uh, district or together one of my good friends was Josie [inaudible]. Her parents were from a Syria and we got to be good friends. And um, very similar. She said, my parents, I think in behind their minds, they wanted me to marry a Japanese American, you know, fraternize with the Japanese Americans. And she was saying, yeah, my parents too. So she' ; s in similar to, um, the, um, Nisei athletic association that I belong to. She was in a, the Syrian type of organization. She says, yeah, and you know, my mom and she wants me to, if I' ; m dating anybody wants me to date on a Syrian [inaudible], I know exactly what you mean. But so here we were in a primarily white school [?] and so we kind of shared, uh, our backgrounds, although from different ethnicities. And interestingly, when we went to sign up for our curriculum, our, our, uh, classes freshman year, both of us will be friended by these very Caucasian kids. And I didn' ; t know until much later that these children that befriended us boys and girls were in Dr Brown' ; s division, which was like the home room. And when I talk about somebody that' ; s another person, they say, oh, she' ; s, she' ; s from Dr. Brown' ; s division. I thought, what' ; s so special about Dr. Brown' ; s division? Dr. Brown was a math professor in some college on east coast who was on a sabbatical or something that wanted to teach at the lower level. So he had the privilege of choosing from the feeder schools, the kids that could be in his division. So I' ; m assuming that they' ; re high achievers, if he could pick whoever he wanted from all the feeder schools. And so Josie and I, Josie and I will not from the feeder school, so we didn' ; t know what it meant, but these are the kids that came up to itself. Where [?] do you go signing up for? And I said, well, and the only role model I had was my sister who was now a medical secretary at the University of Illinois med center. And I said, well shorthand and typing and bookkeeping and home [?]. Well, aren' ; t you taking any college prep? And Josie was on the same page too. She was going to be a secretary, and signed the first college prep and I didn' ; t want to sound dumb. So I said, well, are you? And they said, yeah. I said, [inaudible], like what? So there' ; s, oh, Algebra, Biology, Latin. Oh and I looked at Josie, well we could do that, but the two of us were smart enough to hang onto a shorthand and typing [laughing sound] cause we didn' ; t know what we' ; re getting into. And we all became very good friends. But like a click with these kids and from doctor Brown' ; s division and I still in contact with them. They were definitely high achieving. They moved up the ranks of being leaders of this school. We followed because they were all friends. I would have never had the confidence really to go after things that I did, were it not for them paving the way. So I became very active in the school, which brought a lot of recognition, which brought a lot of opportunities and they went on to college and Josie went to secretarial school. I took a job at the, at graduated in January 56 which was a smaller class because it' ; s a winter graduation. And I, um, started work there and the Steno Pool. And when I applied for the job, they asked me, are you going to school? And I said, no, I don' ; t think so. And it was that year, January and June graduates were being offered scholarships if you were voted in as a citizen of the month. And I really didn' ; t quite know what that meant because I wasn' ; t really interested in it. But the month of January was outstanding high school, senior representing Chicago Land YMCAs, which meant that all the YMCAs in Chicago nominated probably a high school senior volunteer and they were interviewed or whatever and came up with one and that person was plastered on the front of the Tribune like, I can' ; t remember which paper and had the title of outstanding high school senior of the month and told them that they were representing YMCAs. Second month was something else, I think maybe Park districts. Third Month was parochial high school. Fourth Month was Chicago public high schools. And I vaguely remember going to an interview and I don' ; t even remember where I was working. And there were like 10 other students there. And we were interviewed by a panel of dignitaries, [inaudible] I didn' ; t even know what dignitaries, that was Jesse Owens. There was George Kilgaman, um, uh, cup, earth cups in it. Alfred J. Pick of the Pick Congress Hotel, the owner of the Pick Congress Hotel and a couple of others. Um, and I didn' ; t know who they were. I wasn' ; t into media at that time and they asked some questions and then I was anxious to get that to my job. And so in April, here comes a girl into the Steno pool and says, congratulations Helen. And I said, for what? What I do? And she said, didn' ; t you see the paper? And I said, no. She says, well, you won citizen of the year, of the month for Chicago public high schools, outstanding senior. I said, really? I said, well, I won a scholarship? I said, I can' ; t take it. She says, well, why not? I said, because when I took this job, they asked me, was I going to school? And I said No. So she must have told the boss of the Steno pool and the boss came and told me, I understand that you don' ; t feel you can take the scholarship. And I says, no, because I, I just said I wasn' ; t going to school. So she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, I have to have you meet someone. Come with me. Oh my gosh, what did I do? And so she took me to the executive offices of the Chicago, of the, the uh, People' ; s gas like a Coke company, which is on Michigan Avenue, you know, and introduces me to the vice president of people' ; s gas. Like Coke company, and she said, this young lady here won the scholarship for outstanding high school senior and is the outstanding senior ofthe month and she doesn' ; t feel she should take this scholarship because she said she wasn' ; t going to go to school. And he looks at me and chuckles and puts his arm around me, says, young lady, you have to take that scholarship. I said, I do? Why? AT: (01:44:59) Where did you end up going to school then? HK: (01:45:02) Um, I went to first year to the University of Illinois, uh, Navy pier, cause I didn' ; t know if I could go on from there. And he said you have to take the scholarship because I am on the [inaudible] chamber on the Board of the Illinois Chamber of Commerce that is sponsoring that scholarship. It' ; s [?] how would it look in front of my employees, is restricted from taking back. So you have to take it. So then it was a mad scramble, um, because this was April and school starts in September. I didn' ; t know the first thing. What was I going to major in? What was I going to do? And I knew if I did go to college, it would have to be at Navy Pier. It' ; s a state college. Two years I would live at home and I still could work. So my sister is the one that said, who was at the medical campus said, um, I asked her what, what, what, what would I take? You know, sure, well, you have all the prep, you can take anything you want, but I think you should think of what you want to do as well. I don' ; t know. I thought maybe secretary like you, you don' ; t need college for that. And she said, you don' ; t remember your autobiography, do you? When we were in grammar school in eighth grade, we had to write our autobiography. And um, the last chapter of the last page was what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I remember that. And she said, do you remember what you wrote? I said No. She said you want it to be either a baby doctor or a Hollywood makeup artist as I did [?]. And I thought about that and yes, I babysat a lot and I grew up around a lot of sick people and I thought it would be nice to be a baby doctor. I didn' ; t know what a pediatrician was. Never had one and I wanted it to be an artist. Most of the Japanese American kids were very good in art. We did all the stage, uh, background and everything. We' ; ve got an out of a lot of things because we worked okay, good in reading so we could do square dancing or painting or whatever and miss on reading class. And I said, oh yeah, I remember I talked to my brother when I told them I wanted to be a makeup artist cause that' ; s when I started watching movies and learn from some video that they showed a movie that how they make up the masks and make a person old, makes a person beautiful. AT: (01:47:51) So this is probably in Chicago they are watching movies. HK: (01:47:54) Yes. It was on the south side. I was going to grammar school and that' ; s what I recalled and that' ; s when I wrote my autobiography and that' ; s when we would go into Shakespeare theater with Amy and all my friends and see movies once in a while. And so I guess that' ; s what entered my mind because my brothers told me, you don' ; t want to go into art. It' ; s a very competitive field and never make any money. So that' ; s when I think I connected Hollywood makeup artist with art or maybe a baby doctor. I forgot all of that and my sister brought it up. And so she said, you know, um, I have a friend who was entering this brand new curriculum at the University of Illinois med center and it' ; s called occupational therapy heretofore all the veteran' ; s hospitals. We' ; re embracing the concept of rehabilitation for the wounded veterans. And they would just [inaudible] AT: (01:48:57) From which, which war would that have been? HK: (01:48:59) Probably Vietnam. uh, all the others I guess, it has been brewing, but no one ever put it together. But the veteran' ; s hospitals, because they were, uh, having to help the wounded but [?] doing a lot of them wouldn' ; t get, weren' ; t giving it a name like rehabilitation or physical therapy or vocational therapy. This was all coming for, um, probably with the wounded of, uh, Vietnam, which was a lot of young people and the veterans hospitals were establishing that and so the University of Illinois was saying, you know, we should start a curriculum and rehabilitation focus on occupational therapy because Northwestern is focusing on physical therapy and they didn' ; t want to duplicate anything. So in the Midwest to become an occupational therapist or a physical therapist, you [?] mostly came to Chicago because also the universities [inaudible] were offering it. And um, so she said, I have this girl, then she was Japanese American Gal. Um, I go, I mean, what was her name and she, I want you to shadow her. So I did, I shadowed her and whatever she did, it was combining medicine, creativity, uh, innovation. You have to use your imagination to help the disabled become more independent, I would ever means, which a lot depended on your imagination. And so AT: (01:50:38) So this was a nice combination of HK: (01:50:38) It was, and I said, immediacy. That' ; s what I want to do. So now I had a goal. So then I went to the director of the medical center of occupational therapy, Miss Beatrice Wade, and I said, I just shadowed one of your students and I think I would like to enter that curriculum. However, I understand you have to go downstate and I can' ; t afford that. I just got this scholarship. I can live at home, go to Navy Pier, and I could still work and augment the money that I' ; ll need to go downstate maybe next year. And she said, well, this is the first time I' ; m going to do this, but I' ; m going to make a concession for you. I will take some of the classes that you' ; re supposed to take downstate and substitute something close by in at the Navy Pier. So she went out of her way to do that for me. Meantime, ah, as I was finishing up, I received a scholarship from the Illinois League of Women' ; s Voters, don' ; t know where they got my name, how they knew about me, and then even know what they did. Sounded very impressive. And um, at the same time, my sisters went to a different [inaudible] Christian Church, uh, with, which had a lot of young people her age in their, uh, in their membership. And she had a friend who was a manager or something at the Clark Linen and Supply Company on Russel Street. So she said, I can get you a job as a clerk typist over there after school. So when you finish school you go take the bus straight down to Russel street and work at the Clark Linen Supply Company. That' ; s what I did. AT: (01:52:35) I do want to just let you know we are approaching time a little bit. HK: (01:52:40) Okay. AT: (01:52:41) So we' ; ll have just time for a little bit more. HK: (01:52:44) Okay. Um, is there anything else, oh I, I, I can go through my, my profession AT: (01:52:51) Umm, well HK: (01:52:51) Or if you want something more. AT: (01:52:53) Yeah, I think, um, to wrap up, uh, one thing I like to ask folks before kind of completing [inaudible], uh, if you could leave some kind of message or, or leave some kind of legacy for your children, grandchildren or future generations more generally, what' ; s something that you had? HK: (01:53:14) Well, I think what resonates with me is what my parents handed down to me. Um, in this day of entitlement that you have to, uh, make your own way. You can' ; t be dependent on other people. The more effort and time you put into making our own decisions and doing what you want to do, struggling if you have to in the end, it will benefit you far greater than having your way paved for you. I was able to get through with the help of many people. I don' ; t know why, but I think. When you have these, um, goals they see in you and it, this is what a lot of my friends had said to me that, um, they see this, um, ambition, this diligence in you. You don' ; t know that you' ; re showing it, but that' ; s what encourages them to give you opportunities. I have had numerous opportunities throughout my education. I would' ; ve never been able to finish six years of school and go into the profession I did where there was also a lot of opportunities. And I' ; m thinking, why me? Why so many opportunities and blessings and many people ask, how did that camp experience and [inaudible] people impact you? I said, well, one thing I know it did not impact me negatively from the outside looking in. Many people could say it was a lot of [?] deprivation. Um, you, you certainly didn' ; t have a lot of other your friends might have had, you know, your Caucasian friends. I had the emotional support of my Japanese American friends who went through similar trials and made wonderful lives for themselves, but it comes down to who you are inside. And to rely on yourself, not rely on the outside world and other people you can do it. And if, if we can instill that in these children today in this society that is all about entitlements, about giving or receiving, I should say it' ; s going to be hard. I look back on the fact that my mother said, if you are naughty, they will blame you. They won' ; t blame me. If we can instill that in our children to take responsibility for their own actions, not that mom' ; s going to bail you out. Not that, that Dad' ; s going to do this for you, that you are responsible for yourself as best you can and make them proud and make yourself proud. I just can' ; t stress that enough in the environment that our world is going in now, especially in the United States. And I live amongst a lot of people here who are self made. And that' ; s another thing we share. A lot of people here have done great things in their lives, but they came from, um, difficult backgrounds and they are Holocaust survivors. And that' ; s the common thread. And we all get along. We respect one another and we don' ; t see the differences in ethnicity. We see the person and it' ; s, it' ; s so similar, they have the same values. Um, I think that' ; s what makes my life going forward. Uh, still a journey and not sitting here thinking of all the stuff that happened to me before, what I' ; ve done before, but there' ; s still things that you can do with what you' ; ve got into. Now it may be on the form of contributing, giving back to society, giving back to these people that have helped you all along the way. AT: (01:57:39) You, so, you' ; ve mentioned the opportunities that were kind of, presented to you, uh, throughout your life. And I' ; m just curious before we wrap up, um, how, how you see, your move to Chicago and to somewhere, you know, kind of that you probably wouldn' ; t have come if it weren' ; t for the war and the incarceration experience, HK: (01:58:04) What Chicago gave me as opposed to any place else, you mean? AT: (01:58:07) Or, or just, what, what, what has that move, like how has that impacted your life HK: (01:58:13) Or this, AT: (01:58:13) Or how do you think your life might be different if you never came to Chicago? HK: (01:58:17) I, I can' ; t even think of it being any different. I do know that when, um, I grew up and have relationships and the staff is socialization with other Japanese Americans that were slightly older than I, not a whole lot. I was surprised that they never went into camps. They were not on the west coast there, um, immigrant parents immigrated to Chicago or to the east coast and they were so happy and surprised when all these Japanese Americans came to Chicago. They, they were the minority amongst many ethnicities, um, here in Chicago. And it never don' ; t [inaudible] me. But I thought I had, I had the best of both worlds. I mean, I had the support of my Japanese American friends. I was in their organizations. We were in the girls' ; clubs. I met Japanese American fellows. At the same time, I also made the transition into the, uh, all the Caucasian society. Um, I just think that it, I just had a, a very blessed life, always considered and um, I don' ; t see any negativity. And I think it also comes from the fact that a lot of the friends have told me that you say everything came to you. You had these opportunities in college after college, et Cetera. But I think people saw that you had a standard that whatever you did, you' ; re going to put your best effort forward. And, um, you went after the opportunities. There were many opportunities that people probably would have never even looked at. But if you' ; re hungry, that' ; s what you' ; re going to do. But then they said, well, there are some people that' ; ll just sit back and say, well, I' ; m not doing that, you know, and I was ready to, um, scrub floors if I had to. But I think it' ; s, it' ; s what you want to do. You have to have enough confidence in yourself, which I think the camps gave me. I was, had the run of the place, you know, no one was looking after you, but you had to accept the responsibility for behaving. And so a lot of other people that were, um, doing the best that they can, it forced you to do the best you can. I, I just really don' ; t see any negative portion of it. The only sadness I have is the trauma. It was to my parents. To my sister was a teenager because I remember when I felt like, as a teenager, you want to fit in with certain people. You want to look a certain way. You know, she didn' ; t have that. And I remember her complaining all the time, look at this, what they sent [inaudible], I can' ; t wear this. But she had to, I was young enough. My feet are bad because they always sent me shoes that were too narrow. So to this day I have that problem. I problem with my eyes because the doctor when we came out said, did you live at, I live on a beach front? And my sister said, who took me to the ophthalmologist, no, did you live on a desert? And she said yes. And he was surprised. It was a young ophthalmologist. And so she, he said, she said, well why are you asking where we lived? And she said, your young little sister here has a lot of scarring in her eye and that usually from wind or Sandberg and sure as a young child you get the sand storms come in and you' ; re doing this, right? So I have the effects of it now I' ; m paying for it. But when I think of the whole of my life, I think it was just a real bless of life. And if I leave tomorrow, I' ; d be happy [inaudible]. Three children, happily married. Hopefully the diversity in my family will be what the world will be one day. And all my grandchildren, they all get along. So what' ; s to be unhappy about, you know, and then my husband and I' ; ve done well enough and he would, he had to go through college and get his Undergrad in 13 years. So he' ; s the other side that didn' ; t have these opportunity. He was taking care of his mother. And so when he was finishing up his schooling, I was, I was working and consequently didn' ; t have children until later until he finished school and can get his career on the road. So it' ; s just been a blessed life and I can' ; t imagine it any other way. I don' ; t have any bad feelings about not going back to California. I would have probably been a farmer' ; s girl. Right? So it' ; s been a good life. I' ; m really happy that everything happened as it did and, um, so many good people out there gave me opportunities, and it' ; s still a blessing to move forward. AT: (02:03:52) Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, um. HK: (02:03:56) Anytime. AT: (02:03:57) Really appreciate it. 2 Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KimuraHelen20180419.xml KimuraHelen20180419.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Kimura, Helen (4/19/2018)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
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Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/4/2017 Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya (11/4/2017) 0:45:31 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/302173908 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/302173908?h=032d772525" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 To start, can you just state your full name? Fumino Knox: 00:03 Okay. My full name is, uh, Fumino Tsuchiya-Knox. AT: 00:08 And where and when were you born? FK: 00:10 I was born in Manzanar, in the camp. Um, February 20th, 1945. February 26th, 1945. Excuse me. AT: 00:20 And um, so like I mentioned, we' ; re, we' ; re interested in hearing about what happened with people' ; s families during the war. So can you explain, uh, where your parents are from? How they ended up there? FK: 00:35 Yeah, well, my, um, my father is a first generation Japanese American. He came to this country in very late 1915. Um, originally to the West Coast. And then he lived in Chicago, uh, for a number of years before the war. My mother, uh, was born in Sacramento. She was a second generation. Um, and her parents were both from Japan. Uh, she was, she grew up in Los Angeles. And, uh, in 1936, my father' ; s uncle arranged their marriage. He knew some people in Los Angeles and he thought my father should get married. And so he arranged for my father to meet my mother in Los Angeles. And after that, they moved to Chicago and they lived in Chicago in the 30s, prior to, uh, the war. In 1940, they moved, they were going to go back to Japan and Manchuria actually, but, um, they came through Los Angeles to see my mother' ; s mother and say goodbye. And the Japanese community in Los Angeles was so concerned about possibility of war that they said, wait until tensions have calmed down. Don' ; t go now or you might not be able to come back. So they were in Los Angeles, uh, when the war broke out. Um, and then they were sent to Manzanar. AT: 02:15 What did your parents or your father do? FK: 02:19 My father was the curator of a private museum in Chicago of the Harding Museum, which uh, housed European arms and armor. It' ; s in the Chicago Art Institute now. Um, my mother was a housewife basically. AT: 02:38 And um, so he, he came to the U.S. in? FK: 02:44 In 1915 and then he came to Chicago in the early twenties. AT: 02:50 Early twenties. FK: 02:50 And he worked at this museum from around mid-twenties until 1940. AT: 02:57 Was he involved in similar work in Japan? FK: 03:00 No, he came when he was 16, so. He came because his father had come to America in 1906 when my dad was only six years old. And um, in 1915 or 16' ; , um, his, my father' ; s mother wanted him to come to America to get his father and bring his father home and he did, you know, meet his father and the father went home. But my father stayed here. AT: 03:32 Um that' ; s quite a story. FK: 03:39 Yeah. AT: 03:40 One that you don' ; t hear often. Um, so FK: 03:47 Yeah, actually. I mean, part of the reason I think that my father' ; s father came to America was in Japan. There is a custom for, um, families to have a, if they don' ; t have any male children, to have a man, uh, take on the family name and essentially marry into the family. So my father' ; s mother' ; s family had not had any male children for like five generations and had, had men married into the family all that time. So my father' ; s father married into my father' ; s mother' ; s family. And usually those kinds of arrangements, they weren' ; t very happy ones. Um, the men were not respected that much, I think. And so I think that was part of the reason why his dad had come to America. Yeah. AT: 04:43 And then can you tell me a little bit more about, um, so after they had stopped, what they thought was just stopping through L.A. FK: 04:55 Right. FK: 04:55 Did they, how long were they there? FK: 04:59 They were in L.A. for about a year and a half or so. Um, they actually started a nursery in Culver City and we' ; re running that when the war broke out. AT: 05:12 And were they staying with your mom' ; s mom? FK: 05:14 No, they were living on their own. AT: 05:17 Yeah. FK: 05:19 And then my older sister had been born in Chicago and she was about six months old when they moved, you know, when they came up to Los Angeles. AT: 05:28 Was she the only child at the time of the war? FK: 05:31 Yeah. AT: 05:33 Um, and then can you tell me about, uh, what happened when the Evacuation Orders went out? Where they were sent? FK: 05:40 Well, um, they were, they decided to volunteer to go early to camp, so they weren' ; t sent to, uh, one of the, um, temporary detention centers. They just went straight to Manzanar and I believe they got there about March of, uh, 42' ; . May? LourdesNicholls: 06:05 April 8th. FK: 06:06 Okay, April 8th of 42' ; . AT: 06:12 And, um. FK: 06:14 And my grandmother, my mother' ; s mother, you know, had been living in Los Angeles all this time. And um, she came to live with my parents in the camp. Yeah. So that they would be together. AT: 06:31 So does that mean they were a family unit of? FK: 06:36 Right. AT: 06:37 That would be for including your sister. FK: 06:39 Including my sister, yeah. AT: 06:40 And what do you, what do you know about their early experiences in Manzanar? FK: 06:48 You know, I, um, my mother used to talk about it. My father didn' ; t so much, but um, you know, she did talk about having to make the mattresses with the straw. She talked about how terrible the food was and how they had to use yellow dye to dye the lard or whatever it was to substitute for, um, butter. And that everyone wanted rice and there wasn' ; t any, you know, rice for dinner and that type of thing. And the dust, the dust everywhere. That was really hard I think. AT: 07:29 And then, um, you were born in 45' ; ? FK: 07:33 Right Just six months or so before we left. So I really don' ; t have any memories of camp. AT: 07:41 Do you know, and do you have any information about kind of the, the conditions, um, at the time of your birth or you know, hearing stories from your parents? FK: 07:50 Well, it was interesting. Um, my father had been going out to find the job, uh, you know, starting from I guess 44' ; or so. Uh, my mother had gone with him at least once, I believe, to Chicago, possibly to New York also. Um, but then she came back and he, um, was working I think in Seabrook at the farms in New Jersey, or um, at the time I was born. Um, so I' ; ve always sort of theorized that my mother probably got pregnant when they were off on one of the trips since they had to live together with my grandmother in the barracks at camp. So anyway, um, I just, you know, no, I was born in the hospital there, but I really hadn' ; t heard in much else about that. AT: 08:50 And then, um, do you know what the process was like for them leaving camp? FK: 08:57 Well, again, my father looked quite a, you know, in quite a number of places and he, um, spoke both Japanese and he was quite fluent in English. He, which he learned on his own, so he had I think, looked for jobs, um, translating or teaching, uh, Japanese. And he found a job, um, in Stillwater, Oklahoma at the university. Uh, there they had a program, uh, by the Navy, um, for teaching Navy officers, Japanese. And, uh, we found a postcard that he sent from there telling my mother to pack up her bags and get a ticket for everyone to go to Stillwater. Um, and so they moved there and they were there for about, um, let' ; s see, from 45' ; to 47' ; . And then he got a job with the U.S. Army to translate for the war crimes trials in Japan. And so, um, he went to Japan. Uh, my mother, grandmother and sister and I went to a housing project in Richmond, California, which was originally built for all the African Americans that moved up from the South to build shifts during the war. But after the war, a number of Japanese who had been in the camps were sent there for their first housing. And so we lived there for a year. And then in 48' ; , um, my mother and grandmother and sister and I, um, all went on a boat to Japan to be with my father. And then we lived in Army officers' ; housing, um, in the middle of Tokyo, which was, it was kind of interesting. It was called Jefferson Heights and it was almost like a suburb. There were, um, two story houses. Uh, I mean it was pretty luxurious to me after living in a housing project in Richmond. And so we lived there for a year. AT: 11:26 And where are your first memories? FK: 11:29 My first memories are from Richmond, California, yeah. AT: 11:32 Like what do you remember about it? FK: 11:35 Oh, it was, um, well, I remember I was sitting in a high chair and wanting some mush for breakfast. But, um, it was, I mean, I remember the building, it was like a fourplex. Um, right from the train tracks on the other side of the train tracks. There were, um, greenhouses where the Japanese Americans used to grow flowers for the market in San Francisco. And, um, I just remember there was no bathtub in the apartment, there was only a shower. And so my mother and grandmother used to fill this huge tub with water to give us our baths. Um, my sister went to school there. She was five years older than I was. Um, but I wasn' ; t yet of school age, you know. So I started school actually in the Army officers' ; nursery school for their kids in Japan. And my mother says that was when I first really started speaking English for the first time, that I had been speaking Japanese until then. AT: 12:53 Interesting. And so you were there for a year and FK: 13:00 For a year. AT: 13:00 Was it in Tokyo? FK: 13:03 It was right in Tokyo. We used to be able to see a general MacArthur going to the Diet building. Yeah. And I remember going around the, um, Imperial Palace with my grandmother and seeing the koi in the moat around the palace. Yeah. AT: 13:23 And so who are you in that, those your first schooling? So who were you in class with? FK: 13:29 Well, again it was with, uh, Army officers children, so was mainly Caucasians, I guess it was nursery school and I wasn' ; t there very long, I think it was maybe, um, three or four months or so. The fall semester, um, in 1949. And then we came home to, I mean we came back to Los Angeles. AT: 13:57 Um, and um, the move back to Los Angeles. Can you tell me a little about what, why you all moved in? And how long you stayed there? FK: 14:07 Well, I guess the, uh, they didn' ; t need my dad anymore with the war crimes trials. I guess they were starting to wind up. So we came back to Los Angeles. I remember we lived for a couple of months in a little apartment and then we found a house to rent in Boyle Heights, which was the neighborhood that the Japanese used to live in before the war. And there were still a number of Japanese there, but by that time it was mainly a Mexican American. And um, yeah, I started grammar school there, you know. AT: 14:50 And how long were there in L.A.? FK: 14:53 Um, I was in L.A. until, uh, gosh, after college, after I got married and AT: 15:00 So you, that' ; s kind of where your family settled? FK: 15:05 Mhm. My dad had a hard time finding work. Um, I think he worked for a couple of weeks selling vacuum cleaners door to door. I mean, he was totally not cut out for that. Um, and then he became a gardener, which was what, you know, a lot of Japanese men were doing. Um, and he did that for about four years, four or five years I guess. And then he was able to start a nursery, uh, out in Compton. And, um, he did that for another five years or so. And then when he was 60, he bought a picture framing business and he started on that and worked on that for 20 years after that. AT: 15:59 And can you tell me about kind of, I guess, you know, you growing up in Boyle Heights, um, did uh, were you aware of your, your family' ; s, experiences during the war and internment? FK: 16:19 I was, it was really interesting. Um, my mother was a lot more open about it. You know, my dad was very bitter about it and really kind of broken by the whole experience because of the fact that he couldn' ; t get a good job afterwards. Um, but my mother, I think for her it was nice because she was with the community from Los Angeles that she had grown up with. So she had a lot of girlfriends that, you know, were also sent to Manzanar. Um, and, but one thing was really interesting before I started kindergarten, I remember she told me very specifically, she said, if they ever ask you where you were born, you should say, Manzanar War Relocation Center, Owens Valley, California. And a, it just always struck me. I' ; m sorry. Anyway, I think she just wanted to say, you know, there' ; s nothing to be ashamed of. Sorry. AT: 17:46 No, no. You can let me know if you want me to stop filming. FK: 17:57 No it' ; s okay, it' ; s funny, I' ; ve never really cried about this before. But it was a powerful seeing the exhibit here. AT: 18:10 And is that something that, did you take her advice? Did you FK: 18:14 I did. I always, yeah. Um, yeah, that was kind of strange. Um, you know, I did talk with her about it and she said that, uh, all the Japanese had to go there. Um, you know, but somehow we were not there anymore and that, I just remember it was around the same time when, um, there was talk about how Russia was such an enemy of the United States. And I mean, I must' ; ve been older than kindergarten, but I was still very young and in grammar school. And I remember talking to her about that because I said, I thought the Germans were our enemies in World War II. And she said, yes, but now the Russians are enemies. And the whole thing about the camp kind of struck me the same way that it was something that, you know, it was one way then and now it' ; s different now. Um, so anyways, kind of interesting. Uh, when I got started school in Los Angeles, um, there was still a lot of prejudice, you know, um, I don' ; t think I experienced it really badly, but I know some of the kids in the school, their parents had been in the military and all and um, they would be wearing like Army jackets or that type of thing, you know, or those jackets from Japan at that time that had all this embroidery on it and were very flashy that, you know, their fathers had gotten them when they were in the military there. Um, and then I remember my sixth grade teacher, so this would have been in about 1955 or so, um, were talking about the camps and you know, he was a wonderful teacher, we all loved him, but he said, well, you know, that the Japanese were sent there for their own good. That, um, the government was protecting them by sending them to the camps. And, you know, I just, uh, have always been struck by that, because I didn' ; t think that was the case then, but I certainly wasn' ; t going to say that to him. AT: 20:53 Um, were there other, um, were you around other Japanese Americans who have been incarcerated? FK: 21:03 Uh, yes, we were. And in fact, another boy, um, in my class was also born at Manzanar. And we were friends with his family and yeah, every one who was Japanese American that we knew had been in camp. Yeah. AT: 21:23 And in that class specifically were you, were there, other Japanese Americans? FK: 21:26 There were a few, um, but you know, Boyle Heights, uh, you know, it had been, um, a place where a lot of Japanese Americans lived before the war. But like I was saying, by the time we were there, it was mainly, um, Mexican American. So there were just maybe four or five of us in the class, but there were others, you know, it wasn' ; t like I was the only one. And then it was interesting from Boyle Heights, which was not that great a neighborhood. Um, when I was starting junior high, my parents moved to Gardena, which is a suburb of Los Angeles. Um, I remember my mother asking the realtor if Japanese were allowed to buy homes in Gardena. And the man said, Oh yes, no, we don' ; t like Negroes, but Japanese are welcome, very welcome here. And uh, that community in fact was heavily Japanese. The high school was about a third Japanese, um, kids in the school. So it was, it was a very different experience from Boyle Heights, which was very poor. Um, and uh, mainly like gardeners and you know, that type of thing. And whereas Gardena was more a lower middle class suburb, everyone had homes and very neat. AT: 23:04 Umm. I' ; m still thinking about, um, what your sixth grade teacher said. FK: 23:12 Oh yeah. AT: 23:16 I know you said that you didn' ; t, you know, say anything, but what was, what, what was, do you remember what was going on through your mind, when he said that? FK: 23:26 Well, I was thinking a little bit that, that I hadn' ; t thought before what it would have been like if we had stayed and that, yeah. In fact, it might' ; ve been kind of dangerous, you know, so that was part of it. But the other part was that I knew it was wrong that they did that and that was what he wasn' ; t acknowledging with what he said, you know, so it just, it was hurtful. It was very hurtful. Yeah. AT: 24:01 And did you, as you were growing up, um, well, and I' ; m sorry, right. At what point did your family move to Gardena? FK: 24:09 Ah, that would have been about 1956 that we moved to Gardena. AT: 24:14 And then, um, let' ; s see. You were probably middle school age? FK: 24:20 Yeah. Mhm. Seventh grade. Yeah. AT: 24:22 And then how long has your family there? FK: 24:25 Um, my parents were there until they passed away in the early nineties. Yeah. And I was there, uh, through high school. I graduated in 1962. Um, I went to Occidental College in Los Angeles. And that' ; s where I met my husband and we, he was from Berkeley, so we moved up to Berkeley then. AT: 24:53 Um FK: 24:57 Oh, I, I guess I should tell you about growing up too, that, um, there was sort of, this schizophrenic push to, you know, from my parents, to both be all American as well as to retain the Japanese traditions. So I did go to Japanese school every day after school. Yeah. All through grammar school and then on Saturday' ; s all through junior high and halfway through high school, um, to learn Japanese. Um, but then at the same time, you know, they just, they really wanted me to excel in school. Um, but then for example, when I was going to go to college, um, I had taken a tour and decided I really liked Occidental College and that was where I wanted to go. My mother kept trying to, um, make me decide to go to UCLA. And the main reason was she said there were a lot of Japanese kids there and she, I think she always thought, um, I would be safer and treated well if I were in some place where there are a lot of Japanese. So, like even after I started working, every job I had, she would ask how many Japanese work there, you know, are they nice to you and that type of thing. AT: 26:24 Uh, I' ; m, I' ; m curious to hear what your thoughts are on, um, what you think some of the big impacts and legacies of the camp have been on you? And it' ; s, you know, it' ; s, it' ; s unique in that you were born in camp, you don' ; t have any memories, so, um, whatever you do know or feel is probably passed down. FK: 26:51 From my parents AT: 26:52 From your parents. yet at the same time you were there. FK: 26:56 Yes. AT: 26:57 So I' ; m wondering if you could, um, just think about and tell me about what you think has been kind of passed down and then maybe what you' ; ve experienced, you know, internally, yourself? FK: 27:10 Right, right. Um, well, like I said, my father was very, very bitter about the experience and I think it was so humiliating for him. Um, he had been the curator of this museum that had this wonderful European arms and armor before the war. And then in the camp, he, they actually asked him to start a museum there. What for, you know, they didn' ; t have a collection of anything, obviously. So he started a museum that just had, um, things from around the land where the camp was, uh, the geography of the land and then items that the internees made that they could display. Uh, and then they try to get photographs of the outside world because it was also trying to teach the children what it was like outside. But it was like such a poor, um, comparison to what he had been used to doing. Um, that, you know, like I say, it was very humiliated by it. Um, and I think he was depressed basically the rest of his life because he didn' ; t talk about it. He, you know, was angered really easily and, oh, I' ; m sure it was hard. He was already older as a parent, you know, my, he was 36 or 40, rather, he was 40 when my sister was born. He was 45 when I was born. Um, and I' ; m sure it must' ; ve been really difficult to think that he had to raise these children still and now, you know, uh, after the Japan, uh, war crimes trials, it was really hard to find a job. So that just always made me so sorry for him. Um, you know, like I say for my mother, I think it was easier. And then she also got my grandmother living with us, a mixed blessing, I' ; m sure. But my grandmother basically raised my sister and me. My mother worked, um, after that, uh, she started actually to work for this chain of yarn stores and she became a manager of the warehouse that she used to manage about 20 or more people. Um, so for her, the fact that my dad wasn' ; t able to provide, now she sort of came into her own after the war. Um, so that sort of also, you know, it was that dichotomy of how they came out of it differently and how they viewed that experience differently. That I think gave me mixed emotions about it. Um, but I think I always, until the late sixties, when the, um, ethnic identity movements started, I had always been rather ashamed of the whole thing because, you know, no one talked about it. It wasn' ; t in the history books. Um, so it always seemed to me it was shameful. Um, I didn' ; t like to feel associated with the Japanese or with Japan, certainly. Um, and in like 1970, we lived in Berkeley then and I went to a lecture at Cal by a Japanese American professor who talked about the camps and it was just such a moving experience to hear that, you know, in an auditorium where there were people around really something. Um, but it' ; s, I think on the whole until, uh, my parents passed away and then my second husband passed away at the same time, um, in the early nineties, I really was kind of trying to run away from the whole Japanese culture and Japanese American culture become really white. And I think it was only when they had all passed away that I was on my own and, uh, really felt a longing for everything I had lost and really tried to kind of go back and get closer to my roots. And, uh, you know, like I' ; ve joined this, uh, group in the Bay Area of Sansei, third generation Japanese Americans, which is really good. It started as a support group around the time of the, uh, Redress Movement and where people were, um, most of those people in the Sansei group with me, their parents hadn' ; t talked about the Camps at all and they just learned about it for the first time, uh, with the Redress Movement. So they were also in their own way trying to find their roots again. And so it' ; s been a real good group and we still meet once a month and, uh, it' ; s really, it' ; s really good. Um. AT: 32:54 Before, um, um, coming back to your roots and seeking out, um, you know, groups like this Sansei group, did you ever speak about it with peers at all, or your sister, or how did that come up in conversation? FK: 33:13 Yeah, I did. And, um, you know, people were usually so surprised to hear about it. Everyone, you know, have friends, non-Japanese friends, they just, they' ; d never heard about it and uh, they were really astonished. But they also, I don' ; t think knew the whole scope of it for a long time because it' ; s only in the last 20 years say that the knowledge has become more widespread about what it was like. Um, my sister and I would talk about it but she was, um, like two to five when she was in the camp and she had basically very good memories about it, you know, as a child and she went to nursery school and kindergarten and everything. So for her it was a real positive experience. AT: 34:18 Um, one thing I wanted to ask was, uh, so you' ; ve described your experiences for your parents after camp. Did they ever consider moving back to Chicago or um out of California? FK: 34:37 Yeah, it was, well, like I said, during the war, when my dad went to look for work, he did look in Chicago and um, I' ; m not exactly sure why they didn' ; t try it again after being in Japan. But it may just be because my mother had more connections with the community in Los Angeles. Uh, my mother' ; s sister lived in Los Angeles too, so I think maybe my grandmother wanted to be close to her. Yeah. AT: 35:13 And do you know, um, one of the things that we have been interested in, um, throughout this project is kind of hearing about Chicago. So I' ; m just wondering if you happen to know anything, more about, um, your dad' ; s time and experiences here, or was he involved in any kind of Japanese American community or what was that like for him? FK: 35:41 No, I don' ; t think there was any at that time, at least that he knew of. Um, he had one Japanese friend who was, uh, from Japan, uh, who, who had come here on a, um, like a business, his business had sent him here. He had worked for a textile factory and in Japan. And the company sent him here to learn more about textile production in America. And he essentially didn' ; t go back and just stayed, um, and was a cook in like wealthy families households. And that was his only friend here. Um, they, I know my parents and this friend, uh, did try opening a restaurant, a Japanese restaurant before the war, and we have some photos of them when they opened it. But apparently very soon after they opened it, there was some type of diplomatic affair between the U.S. and Japan and business just really dropped off and they could never make a go of it. So they had to close it. Yeah. AT: 37:02 Do you have any idea or sense of what part of the city he was in? FK: 37:06 He was in, um, close to Hyde Park or actually in Hyde Park? Um, yeah. And we do know the address they lived at and like the 5400 block of Dorchester. AT: 37:25 Um, so we can be wrapping up, but I have a few more questions. Um, so we' ; ve, we' ; ve talked a little bit about, um, kind of how the stories have been passed down or not. Um, and I' ; m wondering when you started to have children, what were your, um, what were your views or your thoughts about sharing um, your family' ; s story with your kids? FK: 37:53 Yeah, well, I definitely did share the family story and, um, you know, that' ; s why I think my daughter Lourdes is so interested in it. Um, but you know, at that time, and I really feel kind of badly about it, but I was still in the mode of not really accepting my Japanese heritage. So I, I wasn' ; t speaking Japanese and I didn' ; t make a big point about their learning of that Japanese culture. I know Lourdes wanted to learn Japanese. And I did take, uh, she and her sister to Japanese school for awhile on Saturdays at the Buddhist church in Oakland. Um, but it was, it was just too difficult because I wasn' ; t speaking at home. Um, so, you know, they gave it up after awhile. Um, and it' ; s so interesting. Uh, her daughter, Mari now, uh, started learning Japanese at this Montessori school that she went to after school while she was in grammar school cause the woman was from Japan who ran the school and taught Japanese there. And so in high school, Mari, um, took Japanese as a class and then the whole Japanese class went to Japan for a exchange program. And, um, Mari just loves it. And the first time she went to Japan and she came back, I met her at the airport and I remember she said. I' ; m gonna cry again too. She said, grandma, I' ; m so proud that I' ; m Japanese. And that was just the most, um, moving thing I had ever experienced because I could never say that. Yeah. It was really wonderful. Yeah. And uh, I mean, she' ; s blonde haired and it' ; s gray eyes, but she' ; s speaking Japanese, she' ; s majoring in Japanese and she' ; s going to go to Japan to study and she wants to live there. She says, I don' ; t know. She' ; ll follow through on that. But, um, so anyway, she has gotten me re interested in Japanese and I started taking Japanese again, um, this year and it' ; s been really great because it' ; s all coming back. Um, yeah. So it' ; s, it' ; s great. AT: 40:42 One thing I like to ask folks, um, is if you can, if you could pass down any kind of legacy year or message to your, your grandchildren, to your children and your grandchildren, what, what would you want to leave them with? FK: 41:06 Well, I certainly want them to remember the history of what happened and um, you know, really make sure it doesn' ; t happen again. Yeah. And you know, and to be proud of their heritage. I think that' ; s, that' ; s really important and I really feel sad that, you know, it took me so much time to get to that point, that I could feel that way. AT: 41:45 Thank you so much for the time to speak with me. FK: 41:49 Oh well, thanks so much. AT: 41:51 Is there anything, anything else that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? FK: 41:56 No, I, well I was going to say one thing about my mother' ; s family in uh, in the little Tokyo before the war, which was kind of interesting. Um, her father ran a gull parlor in their living room. That was how he mainly made his living. Um, but it was an interesting time in the 19 teens and twenties in little Tokyo. Um, there' ; s a lot there to my, my mother and her sister were in a number of movies of Japanese movies made at that time down there and um, you know, that that whole community that existed at that time was really wonderful, really close. And something, another piece of history to really remember. Yeah, yeah. AT: 42:47 I actually did remember one thing that I wanted to be sure to ask about. Um, so as you know Lourdes, um, has done presentations about, um, some of your family' ; s experiences and I know she' ; s covered particularly about your father' ; s museum in camp. Um, I' ; m just wondering if, how, how did your family compile all of this information? Cause it' ; s, um FK: 43:22 You know, my mother just saved everything. Um, I have about, gosh, maybe 10 big cartons of plastic cartons at home filled with photographs. We have photographs from the 1890s in Japan to, you know, through the whole time period in Los Angeles of my mother growing up. And uh, so she saved all these documents from camp and from the museum. She had photo albums that my dad was a photographer, you know, hobby, his hobby was photography. And so he had taken a lot of photographs of the museum too, in Chicago. So we had all that. So it was oh, um, you know, I guess that was something else I didn' ; t mention was all of that for me growing up was also such a contrast to the camp experience that it was always almost surreal that my parents had these lives before the war that were so, um, I don' ; t know exactly what to call it, kind of rooted in either the community in Los Angeles or like rooted in that profession that my dad had. Uh, and then it was all lost and it was almost like we were just starting from scratch after the war without any history, you know. But I would say these things in the albums and, um, putting that together with our present circumstances was really, really something that' ; s difficult to do for me. Yeah. AT: 45:22 Well, if you don' ; t have anything else to add, um, thank you so much again for your time. FK: 45:28 Oh, well thank you so much. 2 Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KnoxFumi20171104.xml KnoxFumi20171104.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Knox, Fumino Tsuchiya (11/4/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Takada, Anna
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Kobayashi, Ryoko
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/16/2017 Kobayashi, Ryoko (11/16/2017) 1:07:02 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kobayashi, Ryoko Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/298255330 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/298255330?h=01ecc2515a" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you state your full name? Ryoko Kobayashi: Ryoko Kobayashi. AT: And where and when were you born? RK: I was born in Seattle, Washington. September 20, 1926. AT: 00:00:15 And, what did your parents do for a living? RK: Well, in Seattle? Well, my mother was a housewife and my father, he worked for the farmer' ; s market. He had a little booth with apples or whatever he had to sell those days. It was a great depression. AT: Did he farm the produce or just sell it? RK: He sold uh, just what he had like [?] apple, oranges and then trying to make a living that way. AT: And did you grow up with any siblings? RK: I have two brothers, one older and one younger than me. AT: And, can you tell me a little bit about, what it was like growing up in Seattle? What kind of city it was at the time RK: It was a, it was very depressing because the great depression and, we lived in a house where cold water flat, like, you know, no water, hot water. So my mother had to boil water for everything, cooking, bathing, and uh, a very depressing. And if I got a 3 cents for allowance to go to school, I was lucky. Yeah. It was real bad in those days. So I never want to go back to Seattle. That' ; s a memory within, I don' ; t wish to retain it, you know. I feel sor, no, I, we feel real bad for my folks because they had to live that way and they couldn' ; t afford to give their children too much of a good thing, like now children get everything they want. But now in my days, I was lucky if I had a Christmas tree or like my mother' ; s friend come over and she, they want to talk. Woman talk was, she gave me a dime to say, you know, get lost, go, go to the candy store or something. But that' ; s how life was. And I was as a child, I had epilepsy, so it wasn' ; t on top of that depression and epilepsy and, I was a very sickly child. So my, my mother had an extra work taking care of me and the boys were okay. You know. And, so that' ; s why that' ; s my opinion on Seattle. AT: Mmm. Growing up there. So you, did you go to school? RK: Yes, I went to the Western school and the Japanese language school. So right after the western schools open over, I have to take, oh, I have to walk about a mile to go to the Japanese language school. Now, think about one, one or two hours. Then I came home, but had the western book in one hand and the, my mother made a bag [unclear] for the Japanese of school book. So it was, I had to carry a lot of learning, you know, but good. AT: Was there a, a big Japanese American population of Seattle at that time? RK: Yes. Yes. Good. The Japanese school was just filled with the children, you know, it varied. It was discipline. So when we had freedom in the western school, we go to Japanese school, we were like a stick man where you just walk in and teacher come by. We bow low, we have to show respect, we' ; ll be going into the classroom, we have to sit and if the teacher call, you have to stand and bow to the teacher then, re before you read the book of what the teacher told to read, you have to bow and chat. I' ; m going to read so and so then after that' ; s over, I bow again, then I sit down. So it was very disciplined and, so that' ; s how I was raised, they' ; re not come home and I speak Japanese. Because my father could speak English but my mother couldn' ; t speak English too well. So it was all converse. Conversion was in Japanese. AT: And where were your parents from originally? RK: My mother was from Tokyo and my father was from Ofuna, which is in Kamakura. AT: And, so you spoke Japanese at home? RK: Yes. My father could read and speak English, so it was kind of easy when I talk with my father. But when my mother is strictly Japanese And, AT: Did you have a preference of language? RK: For me? AT: Did you have a preference in which language you use? RK: No, because even with some of my friends, we kind of, the Japanese kind of slips then, you know, and, so, um, oh, it was a very, it' ; s not like now where the kids have everything computer and things. We have to, we didn' ; t even have a telephone, so we have to go to some person' ; s house, knock on the door, and do your so and so. So it was very hard and, but, you were disciplined. So it didn' ; t matter if my folks said do it, then we did it. AT: And besides school and Japanese school, were you involved in any other activities or did your family go to church? RK: Yes, I went to first Baptist church. AT: So is that every Sunday? RK: Oh, yes, every Sunday. And then someone, they have a children' ; s program. Then my mother took, took me to the church and, so we could perform in whatever we have to do. AT: 00:06:48 And then, how old were you when Pearl Harbor was attacked? RK: 15. AT: And can you tell me a little bit about that day, of your recollections of that? RK: Oh, yes, I was, it was a Sunday afternoon. And, I was sitting on the front porch trying to take a breather. You know, I was thinking, what should our shoe work for school tomorrow? And if I did my lessons. Okay, so you know what passes through. Then, I saw from the distance, my father' ; s friend was coming in a fast pace and then he came and I bowed, and he is your father at home. I said, yes. He went up the steps and then I heard voices. Then he came running out and we didn' ; t have a phone or those days, no television, computer and new thing to give a fast information. So he was our information, inform, you know, he said no [?], my father said, get in the house. And I said why? Get In the house now. So I went in the house and he said that, Pearl Harbor was bombed. Gosh, why did I have to come in the house? I said, where is Pear Harbor? So my older brother, he turned on the radio and he said it' ; s in Hawaii. So I said, oh my gosh, you know, in those days, poli, you know, politics would then go through my mind, you know, it' ; s always what to wear [?] school kids, what the problems with. In a, so I said, oh my gosh, and then, listen to the radio. My father said, I' ; m going out to get the paper. So he brought about the paper and there was an abandoned headline through inch star, Jap bombed Pearl Harbor. I said, oh gosh, at least I could read English. And, so, that day was kind of silent. Yeah. We didn' ; t talk too much, but I could look on my parents' ; face, what' ; s going to happen and then, sure enough, these things start to happen. Sign on the telephone post came out and, um, my mother said that, we have to go to the church, Saint Mary' ; s to sign and register. But my brother was 16 then, so he was able to do a lot of things for us and have, gather everything up and pack our suitcases. Then she took me to my younger brother and I to Sears and said, uh, um, you, you have to get a pants suit, a boots. And a, I say, why? We don' ; t know where will be going. And we didn' ; t know what sand on need look like. So then, I recall just lately, my friend, we were writing to each other about camp and she sued. Her mother told her we had to dress dignity, dignify, you know, but my mother was opposite. You will know where you' ; re going so you' ; re going to buy the pants suit, we' ; re going to go with your boots. So I said okay. Then they bought suitcases and um, oh, anyway, we came home with it. Yeah, my father said that we' ; d better start doing, getting rid of things. So we had a little house sale and we sold a auto, you know, utilities, I mean, not on the tools and sofa, furniture. And the people came and, they bought a song and dance. And my father had, my parents had a fruit and vegetable market, so they have to get rid of that. Then, they had a truck. And it was just a whole mess of thing. And then my mother said, we have to start burning things. At that time I got straight, um, is a Japanese search Kojo no maru meaning A plus and the teacher said that you, you did very good on your writing in Japanese. So he read it in front of the high school and then, my mother got it be burned. I said, oh no, please let me keep it, said no, every, anything written, you never know. You know, they can' ; t read what you wrote. So I, so everything I had, it was burned. And, pictures and photographs, she just burned them all, so that we wouldn' ; t be hooked with all the, because you never know. Eyes are looking, you know, so it was a then all damn morning when we started, I was sitting on my suitcase and when my pants suit boots [?], there was a broom that my mother put in the corner, and I was looking at the broom, I said, I talked to her, her room. I said, well, you have to go. And I said, thanks for sweeping the house. And then, I got up and my mother said half an hour more, we' ; ll be leaving. I said, okay. So I grabbed my suitcase and I came to the front door. Then I heard a big something that room the broom fell down so I said oh gosh, saying goodbye to me, I guess, but all humor aside. But uh, when we went out, so, it started, it was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop. That' ; s how quiet the morning was. And, I just, I said I want to say goodbye to the neighbor next door, because she did a lot of soaring for us, you know, and there were black couples. So, I went and knocked on the door. I said, thank you very much. You' ; ve been a good neighbor and I really enjoy you, you know, your friendship. And, so we shook hand, then, that was it. She said she didn' ; t know what to say, so she just was silent. But I could tell by her looking in her eyes to say goodbye, you know, and, and, we all carry a suitcase and, radio and whatever we could carry, went down to the Saint Mary' ; s church. In there, it was whole line of a gray hound bus. And No, each bus at the doorway was a soldier with a fixed banner. So I said, what in the world? What' ; s going on? You know, but, so I, I was close by, I was still close to my mother and then, then to say, okay, everybody' ; s going to load up now. And, so we all went in the bus. No, not a lot of people dress dignify, you know, they had a Sushi they were eating [?]. I said, how can they do this? You know, I' ; m not hungry. I don' ; t want to know. I want to know where I' ; m going, what' ; s going to happen, I' ; ll lose all my friends and this, they have to maybe, that was their way of showing how maybe they don' ; t want to look or sad or anything. You know. I don' ; t know what the feeling was. But emotion was different, but between them and us, then, we came to, uh, Santa Anita Gateway and then, all of a sudden I felt like, oh gosh, I feel like, uh, not 15 anymore. We were old, you know, like more older. Uh, somehow something came over me and then that we went through the gate and we have to get off the bus, the bus. And I remember we went through, to make our own mattress. They threw that mattress bag at us and I said there was one guy was filling it, so I just, can I have the filled one. So he said, sure! He threw one of them. And then, um, the, the army and, the whole thing is he was in our neighborhood, his name was Jim Amonon, and we got to know each other. And I said, he was telling me he was one of the guys that filled the mattress. I say, well, how come you didn' ; t fill mine ... [?] ? And that' ; s, we are to cut, you know, we used to talk, sit and talk about incarceration. And he said, well, at least you know, we' ; re free now, so, and uh, but, uh. AT: I want to backtrack just a little bit because you see you were born in Seattle, but you weren' ; t there for your entire childhood. At some point, you move. RK: Yeah. 1937, we moved to Santa Monica, California. And then 1939, we moved to Los Angeles uptown and my folks are operated a fruit and vegetable market. AT: In, uptown LA RK: Santa Monica and uptown. Yes. AT: And, as far as, were there any immediate impacts of, of Pearl Harbor, did anything change in your life as a 15 year old? RK: Yeah, umm, I became very depressed, you know, because um, coming from Seattle and Santa Monica and so forth, and I finally got to know a lot of school kids, became friends and start to enjoy school and all of a sudden it just cut me off and I was just sad. Then when you went into camp, I just sat on the front steps in the camp. I just didn' ; t want to, it' ; s just, I was just depressed. And, um, my mother said, why don' ; t you go out and meet people? I say, no, I don' ; t want to meet anybody. I said that I lost, I lost something I cherished, you know, as. Then, I said that, uh, so I said, well I might as well work or something. So that' ; s I became a waitress there. And then wake up four o' ; clock in the morning and then, um, was $4 a month, I think it was $4. Then, work, uh, carrying bowls. Why is like this. And serving coffee and then chatting with the kitchen helper. And then after six months they said that the barracks were built. So you' ; ll have to go to Jerome mark. So we got a order, you know, so when on the train, took a bus three days just to get to Arkansas and they pulled the shade down so we could not see out. But you know, as kids, we, I saw, you know, black people picking cotton, I said, oh my goodness, where are we going? You know, and then, um, oh, it was lucky my mother got me to pant suit and the boots and the, it was muddy. When we got off to get, you know, then she roam. Yeah, it was just a terrible experience. But, uh, after awhile I got to know a few, you know, girlfriends because we' ; d go to school and I didn' ; t care for school and it was just a terrible experience for me. But later on have to move to Roller. Uh, it became easier for me and the people were at Roller. I got different group of friends and we all went to school together and this and that. And uh, so, 1945, oh, we, I graduated high school in Roller and um, let' ; s see, we went, uh, we went to Little Rock, we got permission to go Little Rock. So we ran on the army truck to go to Little Rock and we bought our dresses and shoes for the graduation and we came back on the bus on the truck again. And uh, so we better hurry, you got, you girls better hurry, because they are gonna close the gate on us. So we have to hurry and look for dresses and shoes, and. But uh, and, let' ; s see, after graduation, do you know, we' ; ve got a notice then, there was a big meeting that the war has ended. So we went there for a prayer meeting and then, and also another meeting was the, when Hiroshima was bombed, we went to that one too. We pray for the people and uh, in Hiroshima. But, um, then my father said, well I could go out now, so I' ; m going to go out to Chicago. There was a people that will support him for one give him apartment and so forth, rooming placed anyway. And uh, he called us, um, and he said that, uh, I guess he wrote to my mother and he said, we are coming out now because, uh, I got a place, I got an apartment and I have a job. So the family could come out now. So, um, the address was 4115 South Drexel. And uh, it was a second floor. I remember. And I just sat by the window and just look out and I said, oh gosh, what' ; s going to happen to me now? Because I' ; m, I can look out, and then, I' ; m so used to seeing Japanese faces. Now it' ; s different. And then, uh, my mother said, take a month off, get yourself adjusted and then, start looking for a job. So I just sat at the window and, uh, I said, gee, what' ; s going to happen? And um, uh, fun, yeah, find a job and lots of jobs. So I just, I came out with no money in my pocket, so at least. Its about $26 was my first pay check. And then I worked on the line, you say, hey, you! Meaning, you know, as, you better do better than this. I said, oh gosh. And then the day after day, you know, they say, hey you! You know, these were tough women. I finally got sick, my nerves all shot. For 10 days I was in bed, my mother had to feed me. I said, Oh God, you know, it was just the one thing after another. And then, so I just went to the, mmm hmm. Manager and I said, I' ; m sorry about quitting. I spent 10 days at home. I can' ; t take this job anymore, so I said, just send me my check. And I walked out. AT: And where, what was the company or where was the, RK: It was on 26th street. Uh, it was a, um, they made a metal picture frame. And what I have to do was a spot weld on one corner, so it becomes a frame. But if you don' ; t do it right, they send it off. Then it became a, I just think, well, I couldn' ; t take it anymore. And I got awfully sick and I was in the washroom and a girl came and said, we got to make a quarter. What are you doing down here? I said, I' ; m too sick. I can' ; t move. And they called the superintendent. So he came, he said, yeah, you look sick. So he sent me home. And but the, AT: And you' ; re so your father left before your family? RK: Yeah. AT: And found the, the job and the apartment. Um, what job did he find? RK: He was working for a school supply. I can' ; t remember the name, but uh, in all the school or tablets and books, I think whatever school supply the furnished. And uh, my mother was at home yet, but then she got a job working for auto lamp I think was the name. They all with the Issei women, they form a little group. And my older brother was in the army that time and my younger brother going to, uh, school yet. And, uh AT: Which school did he go to? RK: Let' ; s see, what was it? I can' ; t remember the name now. High School. Um, he would go then he got a scholarship. And he went to art institute, but I can' ; t remember the name of the high school. AT: And your older brother, um, so was he drafted or? RK: Yes, uh huh, he was, uh, going to go to Europe and uh, the war was still going on. It wouldn' ; t, they shipped him to go to uh, ready to go on board to go Europe. The war ended. So he was then he said, then we' ; re going to ship you to Japan. So when he was going to go to Japan, same thing happened. The war ended. So they sent him, how to say, they sent him to MIS School to be a translator and to learn more Japanese and talk to right and speak. And then that' ; s how he went to Japan as a translator. And, I don' ; t know how long he was there. Maybe two years or so. AT: And, do you remember your, your feelings or reactions to him joining? RK: Him joining? No, because, uh, I feel he' ; s drafted so he can' ; t do anything, but I felt kind of proud that he had an American uniform on. And, uh, he met, he met all our relatives, and he was able to help them with food and cigarettes and whatever they need. So, um, I, I said that you know, somebody is there from us, our family, it is good because they could help out and uh, whatever comes up, he could go to the army headquarters somewhere, help, help the people out. And um, both my cousin, the first cousin, second cousin, they, they kind of went for him because he was, he was kind of good looking, you know, how it is with uniform. So when I went to Japan, she said, gee, your brother was good looking, I said, but uh. AT: And did he come back to Chicago? RK: Yes, he came, came back to Chicago. For a while he worked, I don' ; t know where he worked but uh, he got married. So he and his wife with one child, the first child they went to California and now I think Los Angeles. And then they moved to Orange County, then they went to Oceanside. And, mmm, that' ; s where they both passed away. And so, uh, both my brothers gone. I' ; m the only, and my parents are gone. So I' ; m the only one left of the Kobayashi family. And I see 91 years old and oh gosh. My father was 99 and a half. He was waiting to be a hundred, but he didn' ; t make it. But uh. AT: 00:27:46 And um, do you remember your, your first impressions of Chicago when you moved here? RK: When I first came from the camp out, I say, gees, this is dirty city. You know, was thinking. When I said, you know, my father came to pick us up and he came home and not care, but I think it was, if I remember correctly and then, um, we went up second floor. And I said, oh gosh, there were a lot of cockroaches and my mother' ; s oh my Gosh, you know, and then, uh, but that' ; s the best he could do it at that time. And uh, but there was a Hyde Park neighborhood in the, a lot of Jewish people were there, and then there was a convenience store uh, on a, 41 or3 or something like that. And I went into it one day, and they took me under their wings. They taught me about classical music. They taught me about the, they told me to get this workbook, the music, they told me what place to go to get dresses, and they said that. So they made me feel welcome. And then when I went to the Hyde Park Delicatessen, oh, I loved the cadeshas, it was big, and then hot when they made it. So they, therefore they see me come in, they give me the hot ones and I learned to like the Jewish food. And then I began to like the Jewish people, they were so kind to me. And then, uh, then later on I found out that about the Holocaust. So I said maybe that, maybe that' ; s the attraction they got because they found out that I was incarcerated. So I have many good friends now of Jewish people and, um, they' ; ve been very good to me. And there was one that' ; s working at the zoo, Lincoln Park Zoo, as a volunteer. Every Tuesday I see her, we exchanged bag. I give her books and magazines and, uh, medical, um, medical things, uh, written datas. And she gives me this, um, her magazine and we exchange. So, um, but I really enjoyed them. The Jewish people. AT: And um, what were the demographics of Hyde Park at that time when you first moved there? RK: Pardon me? AT: What were the demographics of the neighborhood at the time? Um, in Hyde Park when you first moved. Who were living there? RK: Oh, it was uh, before the blacks came in, it was a Jewish, and uh, I don' ; t know, Caucasian, anyway, I don' ; t know who they were, but, uh, and then they, um, then I don' ; t, um, across the street. Uh, Hyde Park, a center opened up and the people who go in there and they could join the club and so forth. And uh, there was um, oh remember. There was a Japanese gift store. And I helped the lady out. And, uh, and my friend, she' ; s Italian, she came and, uh, helped the lady out, she took photographs and the lady liked to shift. I' ; m going to give you a Japanese name. I' ; m going to Daniel Terumi meaning shining from with them. You know, Oh, and she liked that. She is [?] Terumi. So even to now she calls me Terumi. Okay. AT: Where, where was that shop? RK: Huh? AT: Where was the shop? RK: Oh gosh, I was on 50. I can' ; t remember. No, it was about a block away. So 4115, so it would be, well, anyways, blocks south of 4115. AT: Uh, and what, what kinds of things were sold there? RK: Oh, Japanese products plus uh, ladies scarves. Neon Uh, dishes and, um, I can' ; t remember. Cause I didn' ; t stay too long, you know, I just help as a temporary help because she needed somebody to, when she was in the back doing something. And, I guess like what a gift store would be, you know, narrow coin purses and things like that. AT: And uh, in Hyde Park at that time, were there other Japanese American families? RK: Yes. Yes. There was quite a few. Those uh, oh, let' ; s see. Japanese food stall, And, uh, but I can' ; t remember where they were at because my parents went to the shop. And, um, let' ; s see what else we, I guess there was a restaurant too. But uh, we didn' ; t have money so we couldn' ; t go eat at a restaurant. But, uh, I don' ; t know too much around the surroundings too much. And uh, because I had to start going work and I know 51st street was a, a little rumble there. You know, all kinds of stores there, you know, was a bookstore I remember, it' ; s still there yet. And uh, they had a tree trunk and the people put signs up. I think they still do that. I haven' ; t been down to for ages. So. AT: How long did your family live over there? RK: Well, I moved out, uh, when I was 27. I said, I have to get out of here because my job is on the north side. AT: Which job was that? RK: Oh, let' ; s see, I worked for a AC Mc club. It was a wholesale place. There' ; s quite a few Japanese working there. And uh, let' ; s see, I was living on Linen Avenue, on 909, I think it was. Weslyan, and uh, I was on the second floor and there was one, but it was owned by a Japanese. And all was under third floor. That' ; s right. Third floor. So the water system, too much water. And uh, AT: Were you living alone? RK: Yes, I was alone. Then, my friend, um, uh, the, Terumi, she were learning how to play cello and she said, uh, I have to study, but I have no, no, I have to go all the way downtown. I go out every afternoon, so why don' ; t you use the apartment? Nobody' ; s going to bother you. So that' ; s how we became friends too, you know. And uh, she, she became a beautiful cellos, but they said that if you don' ; t, if you' ; re not a guy, you can' ; t get ahead in those days. You know. So I guess, what the, the teacher, uh, she had a top notch teacher that she played for lyric opera and uh, another guy he played for Milwaukee Symphony. And they want her too, but she said, I can' ; t because I got to join the union and then, uh, if you' ; re going to join the union, you got to or she said it was just too messy. So she, anyway, uh, I was living alone anyway. AT: And, um, in those first few years that you were in Chicago. RK: Um, what were some of the challenges of, of moving to a new place? Oh. AT: And, and, to moving to Chicago. Did you experience any challenges? RK: Well, I expense uh, Oh, I taking subway and it was close contact with people in those days. And then the guys, you know, this [?] a woman standing there now all of a sudden like your leg around my, his leg around my leg and things like that, I said, what' ; s going on. And then, uh, I was was going to go upstairs to catch the L? Yeah. Oh, going upstairs to catch the L and, uh, the guy stopped me and I couldn' ; t get through. And um, the lady and the, um, the one that takes the money, cashiers, she knocked and said, you' ; d let her go through, I' ; ll call the cops. I mean number, things like that. And um, in that each job I had, if I didn' ; t like the job, I' ; d just roll up my apron, throw it up, and I said, I quit. And then I go to the office, send me my check, because not improving me. And I get on just slur remarks when the people, hey you, that' ; s, that' ; s the, that was a thing then, hey, you, not my name, but hey you, so, uh, if I didn' ; t have a college degree or anything, it was putting tough. Then after awhile, they said, you have a college degree, BS anyway? I say, no, I don' ; t have any, just a high school diploma while we can' ; t hire you. So, you know, it was, it was just, I just, uh, I just felt like a piece of just the Hong Kong beat, huh, but my mother said, you know, just just be calm and just be yourself. And I was daddy girl. So he used to say, you know, there are many nice people here, regardless of their age or the color of the skin. Be nice and you know, learn to like people. So that' ; s how I, he told me what to do and that was the best thing he told me because I meet so many nice people here in Chicago more than New York or California. And even if a, I' ; m sitting on the bus and then I happened to look like this. I see somebody smiling. I say, I smile back. It made my day, you know, so I still love Chicago in the, like the other day I was eating at uh, Mcdonald' ; s and a lady, the black lady sat next to me and then I gave her one of my hand wipe. So you know, it' ; s kind of, you don' ; t know what she touch. Oh, thank you very much. She said, would you like, uh, fries? I said, well, I' ; ll take a couple of them. So she gave me a couple of fish fries. We start talking. She said, I' ; m a teacher. And I say, what do you teach? She said, I teach everything. You know that place up there by, uh, she was telling me, uh, used to be a restaurant bomb down below an upstairs, a char, I think a charter school. Was she. What was there to teach. I said, oh wow. And I found out she very educated person, you know. So I came home and I told Terumi about it. She said, oh wow, that' ; s nice. Because you know, and I said, I didn' ; t see any color in her. I just, you know, we both sat there like we knew each other for a long time and we talked and talked all through the meal. This is [?] I have to go now, huh, but, you know. AT: Do you think that' ; s something that' ; s particular to Chicago? RK: Pardon me? AT: Do you think that' ; s something that' ; s particular to Chicago? RK: What I can' ; t ... AT: You said that you felt like people were nicer in Chicago than say New York or California? RK: Yes. The New York is so fast, you know, and uh, you have Garmin just looking this and that. I like the calmness, you know, I mean, uh, they' ; ll come up and it' ; s, so comical. One day I was waiting for the bus and a guy came rushing up and he said, I want to ask you, are you Filipino? I said, no, that' ; s number one. What' ; s next? Are you Chinese? No, I' ; m not Chinese. Are you ah, this, are you that? I think five of them, he was saying, and he said, well, I give up. What are you? I said, I' ; m American, and I' ; m Japanese. And he said, oh, okay. Then, he disappeared. It' ; s so funny, you know, but. AT: And to go back to, um, uh, those earlier days when you first moved here, um, what were, so you, you went from a move from the south side to the north side. Can you tell me a little bit about, um, what was different in your experiences, either part of town? RK: What a, when I move up closer to the north side, it was close to that, uh, Wilson Avenue L, I heard it was dangerous. In that, there' ; s a lot of American Indians living along the, and uh, so it was a different atmosphere. And then, uh, I was walking, you said that uh, I heard two girls talking and then, they were talking about their lives. And I said, you know, they had been abused too, you know, the Indians, so I guess their life was, uh, well, I don' ; t know, just, just as worse as mine. Well, the atmosphere was so different because when I was on the south side, I will end a day, they give you all the warmth, you know, and I come up there, it' ; s cold. And in the, in the, even though building that I' ; m living in on the third floor, it was cold because, not, not that the water don' ; t come up, but the, the people there, you know, they just walk on by you, you know, and I said, gee. And um, they had terrible fights in that building, you know. Then all of a sudden I see cockroaches and I said, oh my gosh, I told, I said, Terumi, actually, her name is Dorothy. I said we got the, I got to get outta here. I can' ; t take it anymore. So, in fact, my place was robbed too, somebody then, uh, uh, I have bet then, uh the private detective came, he said as an inside job now, who would take my movie camera? Just my movie camera and that' ; s it. I' ; ve got to get outta here. So we, um, I said, I tell you what, Dorothy, let' ; s you and I, we share rent. We could find a place, we' ; ll go have, you know, two, three bedroom or something. And then, um, you could practice all you want and then, so I was looking at the paper, and then I found a coach house, so we went down there and he said, yeah, he' ; ll rent to us. So I said good. AT: Where was that? RK: Huh? AT: Where was that? RK: Uh, let' ; s see, 642 Schubert avenue, right next to Clark Street, almost. AT: And um, on the north side, around that time, do you remember any, uh, Japanese American owned businesses or a market or [?] RK: Yes, I remember on division street, uh, the jewelry store was owned by Japanese and uh, there was a Toguri gift store. They moved to Belmont after awhile and a, the gift store, I mean, the jewelry store moved to, um hm. I think it was Clark street. Yeah. Narrow above uh, Diversity. And then, I remembered going to the Japanese restaurant and they had a horse shoe shape, uh, you know, tables and, her name was Kio, she came from Japan as a war bride. I think, and uh, so we got to know each other, well bless you. AT: Thank you. RK: We got to know each other and then she stopped going to open a restaurant so it was, um, she opened it, I think it was near Division, oh, near Diversity and Clark called Kio restaurant and it was beautiful restaurant and they had a sliding doors where you could have a boot, a little room, they have a hole in the floor, so you could put your leg down and they had a table and then, the waitress come with a Japanese Kimono and then, you know, bow traditional Japanese style. So we order our food and a, a cup of, a few, see it. Four of us from the place where I work, uh, we went there. One was Polish, one was Jewish and no, two were Jewish and one was Dorothy and myself. So we all went in that room and we really had a nice time. We order Sake and thing we pretended like we were drunken, but the, that was a nice place. Then one day she said, I lost my shop. And I said, what happened? She said, uh, the kids took over. They did just put me in, then the chef. Chef ended up in a nursing home and I said, oh my gosh, what happened? You know, a lively woman then, down in a nursing home. So I went to see her and she was just, oh, very depressed. Next time, maybe she' ; ll go back to Japan where she came from. I didn' ; t say anything, but that' ; s how she ended up and I felt so bad. But um, the other restaurants there, I don' ; t know. Oh well I' ; m living now, there was a Ito Sushi and that' ; s gone. She' ; s, he said after 35 years, I don' ; t want to do anymore. So that was my favorite restaurant Ito Sushi because like almost like home cooking to me, but the other restaurant. Um. AT: And um, how long were you on Schubert? RK: Oh, which, uh, 642? Oh, let' ; s see, 19, 1977. Uh, we went through 1138 Schubert. She bought the home there? Yes. AT: And um, so that' ; s farther west? RK: Yes. It' ; s between Lincoln and Racine, and between Schubert and Diversity, it' ; s, it' ; s in the right hood, um, neighborhood AT: And um, throughout this time, uh, when you were working, um, did you do any other activities outside of work? Were you involved in any churches or, RK: No, I was, uh, involved with my hobby be, both our hobby became uh, photography, Dorothy and I, and then, um, uh, that time I was living at the south side yet. And uh, my friend called me and she said, her friend was going to go to the YWCA. She wants to learn photography. So would you go with her please? And I said, so I took my little box, I went, and the next time I was, oh, I thought she will be there. She dropped out. She didn' ; t care for it, but I stayed. I stayed in, uh, in the, one day. Then Dorothy came in and I was sitting at the piano and she said, uh, do you play piano? I said, no, I' ; m just sitting here waiting for, um, meaning to start. So we started talking and she said, do you like classical music? I said, oh, I love classical music. Opera, you name it. And so she' ; s, I do too. So window was a Madam Butterfly came. We both went in, uh, um, had our Rutgers signed by Tibaldi. She was a singer then, you know, in the gut. The comical thing was we both had a blue raincoat on and we had, we were taking a shortcut to the opera house and there was two women. One was on the ground and one was on her knees, you know, and she thought we were cops cause we had a black person sit, please don' ; t take my sister to the hospital, to the jail, you know, she said, she didn' ; t do anything wrong. I said, pick up your sister and take her home now. Then, we were pour laughing at. So she said, oh guy we were both, we were, uh, just the other day we were talking about that. I said, gee, we must look tough. AT: Mmm, and then, uh, did your parents and your family, did they stay in that building on the, near Hyde Park? RK: Oh, my folks did for awhile. Then, uh, they decided to move north, so they move, do you remember on Racine there was a goldlets, or I guess not, we are anyway, was uh, near the Buddhist church. Up the, um, it was, there was a lot of, big apartment building. So they moved there. I can' ; t think of the address, but, uh, near the Buddhist church that I could know it was on Racine. That' ; s all I know. They moved there and they liked it there. It was lived, and you know, close to goal bloods. My mother' ; s favorite scar goal. Uh, and the friends. It was easier for her friends, their friends to come over. And, um, so more than the south side, you know, a lot of driving to do so. The, uh, they decided to come move north, so the friends could come, visit them AT: And, throughout your time in Chicago. Um, did you have any kind of involvement in the Japanese American community here? RK: Oh, let' ; s see. No, not too much, no. AT: Did you ever go to any picnics or festivals or anything like that? RK: Well, they have this, I like the, they used to have a, um, they call it a Kodomo fair, but uh, AT: Kodomo matsuri? RK: Yeah, I don' ; t know when that is now. I thought it was in November. AT: It just, it was last weekend. RK: Yeah. I see [?] I didn' ; t get any notice, so I missed it. But then they used to have another different, uh, gathering there. But, uh, other than that, I didn' ; t do too much because mostly I was going on my photography trip and not a, not a good photographer, but became a hobby, you know, and, uh, when, um, then, I used to work on the south side 800 Wabash and um, it was run by a Jewish man. And it was a funny interview. I thought I have to write uh, upper, register and all that. He said, what does your father do? I said he, oh, he retired. What does your mother do? She retired too. And uh, so how about your brothers? Do you have two brothers? I said one is a art editor, and the other one is a cost accountant you hired. That' ; s how I got harder [?] job. AT: What was the job? RK: It was a picking orders, you know, as a musical warehouse place. So they had anything connected with music, um, guitars and cello, different accordions and things, you know, and it was 95% Caucasian and then within a few months turn all black. So I had a hard time trying to get adjusted, but I am not, I don' ; t want to say this thing because you know, that' ; s their way of approaching me and doing things. So one day I had a pencil in my pocket, I threw it across the room. I said, I quit. You know, I took my locker key, went downstairs and I told uh, I said, uh, I forgot his name, I put the key on the table. He said, why, what' ; s wrong? I said, I don' ; t want to say anything, I just quit, just send me my check. So I just walked out like that, cause all were afraid, they' ; re going to hurt me. They were tough woman. And, uh, well I' ; ll tell you one incident, she pushed me against the wall. Ripped my blouse open, she said you are a hunky. I said, I' ; m not a hunky. I said you get, you, you might have a black pants, but you know, I have a yellow pants and they are very fierce. There is no thing as yellow pants. But, uh, I mean I had to say something to protect myself, but, AT: 00:55:33 And um, before we wrap up, um, uh, in what ways, if any, would you say that, um, the incarceration during World War Two and resettling in Chicago, in what ways did that, uh, impact you and your life? RK: Oh, I see, incarceration. Um, I was glad to get out and was free. And uh, coming to Chicago, um, I was very lucky because I didn' ; t care for the East Coast or the West Coast and uh, cause I couldn' ; t get a job either place, not only tha, you have to drive certain places. That, uh, I love Chicago and I, like I say, I love the people and I love, uh, I like the parks and everything is close by and then, the neighbors are good and, they take me as I am and, uh, they always say good morning and say what' ; s up, what today? I say I' ; m going shopping as usual this [?]. But people are so friendly. And of course there' ; s one or two of them actually they, they throw the rhubarb in. But, uh, other than that, I thought, I love living here in Chicago and, um, was 75 years of different experience. I think, uh, I' ; m very fortunate that I have my religion, which I say my prayer every night. I thank God that people here they take me as I am even to drop me a smile. It makes my day. And I said that uh, what else, they shake my hand and I feel the warmth. I said, where else can you get that? What else can, you know, now seeing there is a baby mother. I say, oh, how cute in the baby sleeping. I say, I wish I could sleep like that. And the mother will say so do I. But you know, it' ; s a, it' ; s a real, comical and it' ; s real nice feeling. AT: Um, you' ; ve mentioned that you' ; ve been to the gallery a few times. RK: Yes. AT: Um, why, why is this particular history or experience, um, why is it important to, to remember and [?] RK: Oh, number one is the photographers, cause I know the photographers, I mean I read up, I don' ; t know them personally and I know, and so Adam, that' ; s a good camera and is sharp. And Dorothea Lange, she goes to any means to get a picture. And, uh, and then if I see somebody looks me at what something I donate, like today, a young girl is looking. I came by and I said, excuse me, but this is what I donate. This is my name. And she said, these two arm bands. I told him, story what happened to the arm band and she listened very carefully. And then I took her around and uh, with different pictures I explained to them and, uh, I said, uh, then her, then her grandparents came and then, the whole family is moving with me. And, uh, they even invited me to have lunch with him. I said, no, I have to go shopping. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. You know, when I said that a, we want you to come, I said, maybe, you know, it' ; s just that, um, I would like to come, but it' ; s just that I have other things to do and uh, please excuse me. You know, I appreciate your thoughts. So, and uh, AT: What was the, the arm bands that you donated? RK: It has, uh, two " ; K" ; s on the ... That " ; K" ; stands for kitchen [?] and uh, so I explained to the girl in the one little camouflage, uh, pin. Or whatever it' ; s made out of camouflage it looks like a mammy or something right next to the arm band. So I explained to the girl that was made with the scrap of the camouflage. So when we came to the camouflage, she saw there them working. So she took a picture of that, and I said somebody' ; s scraps, no dude [?], the girl would just make it and took the little, uh, Bandanna under. They painted the lips and eyes and then I said, so she' ; s, gee, that' ; s something special, isn' ; t it? I said, yeah, this is why I wanted to give. I wanted to donate that, and I said, everything here, I had it in a box or something, but when they saved, they need donation, I was so happy that I have stuff to give them. I don' ; t know the um, government, uh, issue paper for my parents, but, uh, like I say, Chicago is it with me. And no matter what I had, uh, since 1945, I had a very nice life here in Chicago and I appreciate it. And, um, I take on another thing is a couple of time I went to the Japanese American service center, uh, the farming jobs and, uh, so I approved, I like Chicago. I can' ; t say anything bad about it. Of course, there are a lot of bad things happening. But on the whole, you know, when my, my boundary and life as lucks [?]. AT: If you could pass down any kind of message or legacy for future generations, what' ; s something that you would want to leave behind? RK: Yes. I like to say that, um, young people, y' ; all very fortunate. You could go to college, you could get, you know, nice jobs, nice paying job. You can get, you can marry into a good family. And uh, you could uh. There are so many things you could do that we couldn' ; t do. You could become a engineer. You could become a fire woman or firearm man, uh, scientists. And uh, a lot of things that you could become. Well, I couldn' ; t get that chance. It was like secretory housewife or nurse or something of that sort. We' ; ll look more or less, you know, have few choices, but you have all kinds of choices, you could wear what you want, you could [?] speak fine English or you could speak American language, you know, like go for it this and that. But you have a lot of freedom where other countries don' ; t have that, so make use, make good use of what you have your life, make yourself, you know, present of all, don' ; t, don' ; t get out of the way, you know, Get yourself to somebody too, take care of the elderlys and, you know, volunteer for something good purpose and oh, I don' ; t know there' ; s so many things you could, you have choice to do. And uh, if I was your age, I will be doing all, all the things I just spoke right now trying to be something, or another thing. When I was in camp, the biggest thing that helped me was the roar federated church. Going to Sunday school and going to church and then become a choir member. And there was one beautiful song that the choir have to sing and I could never forget it. I thought how beautiful. And that' ; s a lady. Um, her name was, the last name was Griffin. What did I think she had a beautiful voice and she sang this. I just knelt down. It was so beautiful. I had this knelt-down and uh, when I came to Chicago, I looked down before that music that one founded in, uh, so the church helped me quite a bit and uh, I found beautiful people in the church because they were more like, you know, even kio with me. But, um, I don' ; t know. That' ; s my life. AT: Well, thank you so much for coming in and sharing. Um, before we wrap up, is there any last thing that you' ; d like to add or that I might' ; ve missed? RK: Pardon me? AT: There are any last thing you' ; d like to add or that, anything on me have missed in this conversation? RK: Yes. I, I wanna say this is a beautiful, uh, exhibit. And I am surprised so many people have come. And I have invited so many people. I took a bunch of those cards and I took, wrote down the time and the date and the free parking. So people came and uh, uh one of the other girls. She said, uh, she went to, she belonged to a group and she said, Tom [?] the whole group to come and look, this is history. So, uh, I think it was, the set up is beautiful. Yeah. beautiful, large and uh, in large photos. Well it grabs the people. And I' ; ve, I' ; m glad that it is the history came alive and uh, the people finally got to know what the Japanese went through. And I want to thank the Alpha Wood in the Japanese American citizen lean or service, I guess, would their efforts to put up the beautiful set up like this. It' ; s a beautiful exhibit and then, you can, can help [?] become emotional inside. So, thank you. Alpha Wood. Thank you, Japanese American Service Center. I' ; m, I have more things to donate too, you know. To the American, and I found another box filled. AT: Yeah, whatever you do [?] anything away. We' ; ll share to donate it. Well, thank you so much again for taking the time. RK: Thank you for this time. I know I kind of chit chat too much. So my friend said you should go and tell, tell how you felt. So I said, I don' ; t know. I' ; m kind of skeptical. Well, I mean, you' ; re not, but. I' ; ve got little brave. Do you know? AT: I appreciate it. I appreciate you being so open RK: As the Jewish people say, Hutzpah! That' ; s what I got. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KobayashiRyoko20171116.xml KobayashiRyoko20171116.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kobayashi, Ryoko (11/16/2017)
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Series: Then They Came for Me