6
10
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/4d3f3258f061ea97ab748b2736184e05.png
28aeb7a981f58f56a730939b1dc1f86b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yamamoto, Rulie
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/31/2017 Yamamoto, Rulie (8/31/2017) 0:31:07 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamamoto, Rulie Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299744819 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299744819?h=abd4782e40" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 You can please state your name Rulie Yamamoto: 00:01 Uh, Rulie Yamamoto, formerly Kaneko. AT: 00:05 Okay. And, um, can you tell me a little bit about where, where you' ; re from, where you grew up? RY: 00:13 Oh, well, my dad had, my dad, mom had a farm in Brooks, Oregon, which is about 10 miles from Salem. And it was fun, growing up on the farm. Let' ; s see um AT: 00:29 What kind of farm was it? RY: 00:34 A vegetable. He most, he grew mostly onions, celery and lettuce and maybe yeah lettuce, but then he' ; d always win first prize at State Fair for his celery because they were so big. Every September he would win first prize, he was very proud. AT: 00:58 And had your parents come to the U.S.? RY: 01:02 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they' ; re the ones when we went to camp, dad, my dad is the one that, uh, rented, uh, LaSalle Mansion. So the Japanese would have a place to live and it turned out really well. Um, and then my brother, Hiroshi is the one that ran it. And we all lived there, very happy, I guess. AT: 01:30 Do you have other siblings? RY: 01:32 Yes. Uh, there was seven of us, three brothers and four girls. AT: 01:39 And can you tell me the names RY: 01:41 I' ; m the little, I' ; m the youngest, I' ; m the brat. AT: 01:42 Yeah, me too. RY: 01:46 But I had the most fun. AT: 01:52 And so can you tell me a little bit more about, um, your hometown? Where, where did you go to school with other Japanese Americans? RY: 02:04 Well, back home it' ; s, yes, I went to a grade school through first through eighth and then the war came. But there was, um, I guess my eighth grade graduation, there was four Japanese and four Caucasian. Very small, eighth grade. AT: 02:27 Wow. So it was half? RY: 02:29 Pardon me? AT: 02:30 It was half and half? RY: 02:31 Yeah uhuh. AT: 02:32 Okay. And um, growing up, did you, did you speak Japanese at home? RY: 02:39 My mother spoke to me in Japanese and I spoke broken Japanese to her, what we could understand each other, you know, I speak a little English and so, you know, it wasn' ; t difficult, but this nowadays you considered it, um, you know, inaka, which is countries, country type of Japanese. Cause they don' ; t use the words anymore. They changed the language, you know so. AT: 03:07 And where were your parents from in Japan? Were they farmers there too? RY: 03:12 Yamaguchi ken I guess my dad had property there. So was he, he went back in 1960 back to Japan because my mother had passed away. And he built, I guess he built himself a nice house with a American toilet cause which was nice. AT: 03:45 And so can you tell me a little bit about your life, um, before the war broke out, how old were you and what kind of activities were you doing? RY: 03:59 Well, the normal. Well, I left with, when the war started, I was 13. Um, went to just the regular everyday school. And then on Saturday' ; s I think we had Japanese school for maybe half a day. And then we were taught embroidery, dance, Japanese dance and other things. AT: 04:26 Was that also a small school or a small group? RY: 04:30 Yes, is, our community, I think when we evacuated was only a 143 Japanese. So it was a very small, small, small community. AT: 04:42 And do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed? What you were doing or anything like that? RY: 04:51 I remember, but I don' ; t recall, what I was doing, you know, maybe I didn' ; t, it didn' ; t quite sink in my head. Um, where was Hawaii, I don' ; t know. You know, when you' ; re 13, you barely know your Brooks. AT: 05:13 Do you remember your, your family or older siblings talking about it ever? Or was it just RY: 05:20 Not really, no, I don' ; t really remember them talking about it. AT: 05:26 And what about when, uh, Evacuation Orders went out? Do you remember? RY: 05:34 Like I, I wasn' ; t really into it as more or less does following, you know, what I was told to do and gather up what I needed and I was 13 out in the country. AT: 05:50 You' ; re, do you remember having any particular feelings about it at the time? RY: 06:05 Just kind of going before, not in the country. You' ; re just, you' ; re not. Like in a city, I think you' ; re more grown up. AT: 06:18 And so where, where was your family ordered to go? RY: 06:23 Well, we went to Tule Lake. Um, and then when it came to for that, yes or no, you' ; re going to pledge allegiance to America or Japan. Of course my father would say, of course, America. He says, I came here, you know, felt very strong. And during the night when they, the people that wanted to go back to Japan during the night, they would come and beat people up. You know, cause they know that you' ; re a yes, yes I want to stay, you know. So it was kind of scary. So it was kind of glad to get out of there, Tule Lake was pretty bad. I know our neighbor who was a reverend, he was beaten up. It was very close. AT: 07:27 Did you, did you just find out about it the next day or did it wake you up? RY: 07:32 No, we found out about the next day we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t hear anything even though the barracks are right next to us. AT: 07:43 That must have been really scary. Um, did your family have to go to an assembly center first? RY: 07:50 No. We didn' ; t, went directly to Tule Lake. It wasn' ; t a very long ride. Directly. AT: 08:01 How did you get there? RY: 08:03 On the train. First train ride. AT: 08:07 The first one? RY: 08:08 First train ride, it was kind of exciting. AT: 08:16 Do you remember anything else about that ride? RY: 08:19 No, I don' ; t. Uhuh. AT: 08:25 And how about when you first got to Tule Lake? RY: 08:27 Well, the first thing you see is those, the MP' ; s that were on this high place and with guns looking at us. And that was kind of scary. AT: 08:45 Was there anything else you noticed? The first or, or first impressions? RY: 08:52 Not really. No. No. I know that a room is it just one room with how many people? The brothers stayed with a bunch of boys, but we all stayed in one room. AT: 09:11 So just the girls and your parents? RY: 09:14 Yeah. I was wondering where my younger brother was, he' ; s probably in with us too. They went to freshman my freshman year in Tule Lake and had to walk many miles to, cause we lived at one end. The school was probably, I dunno how many blocks away, but it was far. And everyday it was a treat for me to eat donuts. So I would eat donuts coming home from school. Then I realized, ooh, gained a little weight. AT: 09:55 Who is providing the donuts? RY: 09:58 Who is buying? I, I was with my girlfriend. We were both eating donuts. It was funny, to gain weight, eating donuts. AT: 10:10 Even despite the walk. RY: 10:13 Didn' ; t help. Had to be longer walk. AT: 10:17 And um, so you mentioned your girlfriend. Did you know, did you have any friends who were also sent it to Tule Lake? Or did you know anyone going into RY: 10:29 I did, but we were in different parts of Tule Lake, so I don' ; t think I really saw them. So you just make new friends and so. AT: 10:43 And so you shared a room with part of your family? RY: 10:49 My parents, yeah. My parents. AT: 10:51 And the, the other boys slept RY: 10:53 The one boy. And then the older boy, I guess he was college age, so he stayed with his friends. So maybe four or five boys stayed together. AT: 11:09 And uh, how long was your family in Tule Lake? RY: 11:15 Not very long. I don' ; t think we were there, well, it was one year, my junior, I mean my freshman year or so, just say one year. But I made a lot of friends. I have a friend that' ; s older than I am and we still talk on the phone. And when I hear a song I think, oh, Kiko, Kiko Fuji of Seattle. And I go, I have to call her up and say, " ; Kiko I thought of you." ; AT: 11:51 And so how, how did it work that your family left early? RY: 11:56 Well, I, I really don' ; t know why my brother, they wanted to just get out of camp. So they went out Dorothy, Hiroshi. Yeah. They got a job through where? In Barrington, here. And as a house, I guess he took care of the yard and she helped in the kitch, in the house. And um, then dad told him to look for a apartment house for the Japanese so they could find someplace to live because you couldn' ; t find, you know, they wouldn' ; t rent to you. And that' ; s what he did. So that' ; s, after he fell, found the place, then we all came to Chicago everybody, so. AT: 12:42 Can you tell me more about this, this property that he got? RY: 12:50 Oh, that' ; s the one LaSalle Mansion on the LaSalle and Maple. And then he bought, my brother Roy, uh, uh, Excel Foods on Clark and Division. And then as he was, well, he was at the grocery store and then my father said, oh, these Japanese people, they need Japanese vegetables. So my dad went to look at Indiana, Indiana for a little farm and he found a farm and he grew the vegetables and every week he would in his little car, not car, it was what, what a little truck. And every weekend he would bring in the foods, uh the veggies to all the Japanese stores. And so they could, we could have you know, daikon and napa and all that, he was very, very helpful that way, I guess, yeah. Then then he started making tsukemono, you know, napa so they could sell this tsukemono in the store. Good guy, my father thought everything out very thoroughly. He knew what we needed, what everybody needed and so anyway. AT: 14:16 And so that the LaSalle Mansion, was that, he bought that property? RY: 14:26 I think he leased it. AT: 14:26 He leased it? And um, I know you were, you were very young at the time, but um, or so you must have been 15 by then? RY: 14:51 Uhuh AT: 14:51 So that' ; s where your family came to stay was there? RY: 14:54 Yeah. We all, yeah. AT: 14:57 Can you tell me a little bit more about the building itself? RY: 15:00 The building itself. Well, Dorothy, my brother Hiroshi' ; s wife, used to cook. I went to school. My sister Lily went to school, my brother, I think my brother Harry worked and then Roy was in the Service. And Hiroshi ran the building so. AT: 15:27 Which, which schools were you going to? RY: 15:31 I went to Wells, Wells High School. Ashland. I could hardly remem. I used to think it was so far, but now it' ; s not very far. AT: 15:44 And your siblings went to? RY: 15:47 Uh, my sister Lil, she graduated one year before prior to me. And that was, it did. AT: 15:56 And so how long was your family? Um, at the LaSalle Mansion? RY: 16:03 Well, from there we moved to Clark Street. Uh, he, I guess he, uh, what is it, not sold the building, but stopped being a landlord. And then we' ; d get a flat and lived together as a family. And that' ; s where my niece and nephew were born. It was fun. AT: 16:30 Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago, still been a pretty big change? RY: 16:42 I don' ; t know. I think Lake Michigan. Fascinating. But other than that, no. AT: 16:50 Did you go to the beach? RY: 16:52 Yeah, we used to go to the beach quite often. Yeah. Well, not by myself, but a bunch of friends, we used to go to the beach. And we used to go swimming. AT: 17:12 Did you have any, um, friends from camp or know any of the families that also came to Chicago? RY: 17:20 Now what was that again? AT: 17:21 Did you know anyone who also resettled in Chicago? RY: 17:26 Uh, yeah, quite a few. In fact, um, uh, 10 of us got together last Monday and we were all teenagers and sat there and talked about old times and it was a lot of fun. Everybody got along well. AT: 17:53 What were some of the things that you were talking about? RY: 17:58 How well we looked. In the fact Nori, Nori is the one that was in the Ting-a-Lings with me, I was with her. Um, I don' ; t know. We just talked old times, laughed a lot. Everybody was in good humor. I' ; ve done this, we' ; ve done this, what the last probably three years, gotten together, you know. It was fun. AT: 18:34 Can you tell me more about those, those early days and in Chicago? You know, meeting people and the kinds of things you would do? RY: 18:46 Well, meeting people. I think we just more or less hung around the same people we knew. You know, what, we' ; d go to a Rib House right next to my brother' ; s Excel' ; s store. And a slab of ribs, actually one slab of ribs, was only like $3. And we could eat the whole thing by ourselves. Now I can' ; t. But then I, I' ; m amazed like, oh my goodness, you know, it was so good. And whoever made that sauce I sure would like the recipes. I don' ; t think anyways. And Ting-a-Lings was just around the corner to go for a hot fudge Sundays and they' ; d always give you a glass of water. That was so nice. AT: 19:48 So while we' ; re on the subject of Ting-a-Lings, um, I would love to hear, um, again, very honored to be in conversation with one of the members. But, um, can you tell me more about, um, I guess how that group formed? And maybe how you got involved, if you can recall? RY: 20:06 How that group formed? AT: 20:18 And how many members would you say there were? RY: 20:21 We probably had about 12 to 15. Uh, I have no idea how the group formed. AT: 20:36 Was it girls RY: 20:36 Well, no, excuse me, well, actually Nori and I would like to play basketball a lot. Maybe that' ; s how it formed. I have no idea. But the people in the group were more or less from Minidoka you know, but maybe that' ; s how it was formed. AT: 20:59 Anything think those girls knew each other before coming into Chicago? RY: 21:02 Probably most of them did well from camp, you know, so. AT: 21:06 And um, was this mostly girls from Wells High or from different? RY: 21:16 No, no, no. Probably Nori and I were the only ones from Wells. I don' ; t know, maybe from, Oregon and Washington? AT: 21:36 But was it mostly North Side? RY: 21:37 Well, yeah, it was. We were kind of, we liked the North Side that' ; s why. AT: 21:49 And what do you, what do you think the, I mean maybe if you didn' ; t know it then, um, when you look back, what do you think the, the purpose or the, the motivation for creating this group would have been? RY: 22:15 I don' ; t know. Just probably have fun as a group and getting along and we all got along really well. Um, yeah, it' ; s just probably companionship, friendship. Um, two of us, our own, I have two are alive. All good things have to end, you know. AT: 22:49 And you mentioned that, um, some of you played basketball, were there any other activities that? RY: 22:56 We used to always hold dances, a lot? Well, most of the groups, the girl groups did hold dances and so. Really now, I' ; m thinking did have to pay, I forgot. AT: 23:19 Do you remember where, where they were held there or who was invited? RY: 23:24 Well, it' ; s open to the, you know, all the other clubs there, you know, we all participated in each other' ; s dances, so it had to be, um, I can' ; t think of therefore where we, Olivet, the Olivet Institute with Abe Hagiwara. He was so sweet. That' ; s who it was. And there would always be a fight, somehow, not say who was fighting. AT: 24:02 What were some of the, some of the other groups that you remember. Were there boys or RY: 24:12 Oh yeah, the boys had basketball teams too, but I don' ; t remember the name except the Seattle Huskies because we knew most of the people on the team from Oregon and Washington so. AT: 24:32 And do you remember any kind of, um. So one of the things in my own experience in learning about resettlement was that, um, folks who are kind of, uh, discouraged from being in large groups, like in public or on the streets. You know, one of the stories I have from my grandfather that they wouldn' ; t want walk in groups larger than, than three, basically. RY: 25:09 Really? AT: 25:11 And I, yeah, I was just wondering if you had any experience with that or, or what your experience was like with RY: 25:15 Well, actually we hung around Clark and Division, so it' ; s mostly Japanese and so we never really gave it that much thought of anything scary, you know? AT: 25:33 And did you experience any kind of discrimination when you come to Chicago? RY: 25:43 No. At school, when I went to high school, I used to wear the wooden shoes, clogs and the people, the kids, the girls, they have never seen any things so strange. And they say, " ; What are those?" ; But no, I, most of, most of my friends in high school were hakujins. I never hung around Japanese in high school. It was Caucasian. AT: 26:21 Did you ever experience discrimination? Um, back in Oregon? RY: 26:27 No. No. AT: 26:34 And then can you tell me about, um, so how long was, how long were you in Chicago? RY: 26:43 Oh uh, from 1940, 44' ; 44' ; to 1960, I went to California. That' ; s it. AT: 26:58 Did you go with your family or alone? RY: 27:05 No, I was married and so we moved to California. I love California. AT: 27:11 Did you go to Los Angeles? RY: 27:16 Well, a Torrance. Well, first it was Gardena and then we moved to Torrance, which is Japanese populated, very. AT: 27:29 And um, how would you compare, uh, well, first I' ; ll ask if you, if you had to describe the resettlement community in Chicago, just the post war period. Um, in just a few words. How would you describe it? RY: 28:00 How would I describe it? I didn' ; t, I, to me it didn' ; t make, any, I don' ; t know, difference. I was there and we just did what we do naturally and never really gave it much thought, you know, that there was discrimination. Just you don' ; t look for it so. AT: 28:32 And when you look at the Japanese American community of Chicago versus say in LA or, or Torrance, how are they different or similar? RY: 28:47 They' ; re similar, a Japanese is Japanese no matter what. AT: 28:57 And um, do, do you have children? RY: 29:01 Yes, I have three and three, eight grandchildren, three great grandchildren. AT: 29:12 And if, if you could leave your family with any kind of message or, or legacy, what would you want that to be? RY: 29:20 What I want to say to them? Hmm. Let' ; s see, what else? Probably be yourself, be happy. I never gave it much thought. Now that you said it to me, I' ; ll have to think about it. Keep me up all night. AT: 30:01 You can, you can get back to me. It' ; s a, it' ; s a big, that' ; s a big question. RY: 30:12 I' ; m not, I don' ; t criticize my kids. I let them find out things for themselves. I don' ; t comment, you know. Oh you should do this or you should do that. I let them find out for themselves. AT: 30:33 And this as we wrap up, is there anything that I might' ; ve missed or that you' ; d want to add? RY: 30:42 No, this took me by surprise, so I hadn' ; t given it any thought. And at this moment, no. AT: 30:50 Well, you did a great job for just jumping in here and I, I appreciate you talking to me. RY: 30:56 I' ; m sorry I' ; m not too full of information. AT: 30:59 Thank you so much. RY: 31:00 I take life too easy, I think. AT: 31:03 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamamotoRulie20170831.xml YamamotoRulie20170831.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
Previous Name
Kaneko
Sort Priority
9200
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamamotoRulie20170831.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Yamamoto, Rulie (8/31/2017)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-31
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Series: Then They Came for Me
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/08e769ab6ee9c0233d8bfb313a280505.png
8c60c62237e9ffa282d1c9a5c3dc58da
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, disability or age in its
federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
Office of Equal Opportunity
National Park Service
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/8/2017 Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky (10/8/2017) 1:01:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/303192048 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/303192048?h=e0041456b8" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:01 This is an interview with Rocky Yamanaka as part of Alphawood Gallery' ; s Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II and the Demise of Civil Liberties. Today is October 8th, 2017 and we' ; re recording at about 2:40 PM at the Alphawood Gallery oral history studio. Rocky Yamanaka is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. Rocky Yamanaka: 00:00:38 What' ; s your name? AT: 00:00:39 Anna. RY: 00:00:40 Takada? AT: 00:00:41 Yes. RY: 00:00:42 Oh, OK. AT: 00:00:43 Do you know any Takada' ; s? RY: 00:00:45 I, the name is familiar. I just can' ; t place. AT: 00:00:51 Maybe David or John? Those are my grandparents. RY: 00:00:54 Oh, great. I probably knew him maybe years ago. AT: 00:01:01 So, um, to start, can you just state your name? RY: 00:01:05 My name is Iwa Yamanaka. Uh, they call me Rocky because that' ; s what Iwa, Iwa means rock. And so the once my friends...what it meant is they start calling me Rocky. So I' ; ve been Rocky for the last, how many years? 85 years. Even though I' ; m 90. AT: 00:01:32 And and you' ; re 90, you said? RY: 00:01:34 Yes, I' ; m uh, yes. AT: 00:01:37 Where, where and when were you born? RY: 00:01:40 Uh, March 27, is it 27, March 27, 1926. So makes me nineties, 90 years old, I believe. Is that right? AT: 00:01:59 And where were you born? RY: 00:02:01 Here in Chicago. Uh, my mother, well my father was, my, my father came here in 1900 as I understand, uh, and my mother, he went back to Japan and married my mother, I think in 1920 and I was born in 1927. I had an older brother and older sister and one younger sister. AT: 00:02:35 And um, all of your siblings, were they born in the U.S.? RY: 00:02:40 Yes. And. AT: 00:02:42 In Chicago? RY: 00:02:43 In Chicago. I' ; ve lived here all my life. Um, and well that' ; s about AT: 00:02:54 Do you remember what your father did for work? RY: 00:02:57 Well, he owned a restaurant. Uh, he came as a young boy, I understand, with a Caucasian family that was in Japan. And they came back and they brought him and I understand he got educated here and he started a restaurant in Chicago downtown and, and he went back and married my mother in 1922, I believe, something like that, and he brought her back. And he had four children. My older brother Kan, my older sister Mary Shizuko, and I was third, and then my younger sister is, um, we call her Terry but her Japanese name is Sh-- No, I can' ; t even remember. It is so long. Anyway, she' ; s in a nursing home now because she' ; s kind of lost her memory, uh, in the last... AT: 00:04:14 Is she in Chicago as well? RY: 00:04:17 Yes, someplace uh, but she' ; s under care of uh, because she' ; s, she, she' ; s kind of lost her memory. Um, so, of my family, uh, I think I' ; m the only one left. My father' ; s gone, my older brothers, older sister. Uh, I' ; m the third and Terry is not doing too well. And uh, well that' ; s about all I can say about myself. AT: 00:04:56 And, um, so you said your dad was at a restaurant downtown? RY: 00:05:02 Yes, he owned a restaurant downtown and then I think he lost it during some depression and then he ended up being a cook and um, it was on the South Side or downtown. Can' ; t remember. I remember where it is, but I can' ; t remember the street numbers anymore. It was on the South Side of downtown and my, my mother, I think my father, well, my father was very young when he came to Chicago, like I said, with the American family that was in Japan and he grew up apparently here in Chicago and got, uh, well he went back and married my mother in 1922 as I remember and I was the third of their family or four kids. AT: 00:06:09 What else do you remember about your father' ; s restaurant? RY: 00:06:15 It was on Clark and Chicago Avenue. That' ; s all, about all I can remember, I know it' ; s not there anymore. Neighborhood has changed. AT: 00:06:26 What was the neighborhood like as you remember it when he had it? RY: 00:06:30 Well, um, it' ; s not too far from downtown, but uh, it, it' ; s, to me it' ; s still the same as it was even then. They had little stores around those near, there' ; s a YMCA just down the street. I remember it was a kind of a popular area I thought, but he owned the restaurant on the Clark, Clark and Chicago. It was Chicago Avenue? Something like that, uh, during the Depression, uh, era. Um, as I remember he, um, yes, when did he pass away? He passed away about Nineteen Twenty...Nineteen Twenty, I guess... Well, anyway, it just. AT: 00:07:41 And do you know what kind of food it was that you had at the restaurant? RY: 00:07:44 Oh, it was a regular, typical restaurant. Nothing fancy, they served rice and scrambled eggs and everything else like that, you know. Um, but, uh, it was owned by my father, who, he would, I think he, he had some Japanese food, but uh, in those days people were more interested in eating just, uh, ham and eggs and stuff like that. AT: 00:08:19 Kind of like a diner style. RY: 00:08:21 Yeah it was things where people came in just to eat lunch and stuff like that. It wasn' ; t a fancy restaurant at all. AT: 00:08:30 Do you remember what it was called? RY: 00:08:34 Now I wonder if it had a name. It was right on Clark and Chicago Avenue. It was right near the corner. AT: 00:08:44 And where was your family living? RY: 00:08:48 Uh, I remember living on Cleveland Avenue, uh, up north about, uh just, it was where Cleveland and Lincoln Avenue cross. I don' ; t remember the address, uh, except that we lived right on the corner. Uh, but after my father died and then my mother had them move, it was, at the time there was only three kids left in our family. Um, then we ended up going, where did we go, up a little further north. It' ; s hard to remember things like that. The street name, Fullerton Avenue, Lincoln, Clark, somewhere in that area, I remember. AT: 00:09:50 So just a little bit farther north. RY: 00:09:53 Yeah. AT: 00:09:54 And do you remember where you went to, where you went to school? RY: 00:09:59 It was called, it was Lincoln school. I think it' ; s still there. And while our high school, yeah, it' ; s all on the near north side. Um, and uh, yeah, I, I grew up there and let' ; s see... When things happened kind of gets mixed up in my head. AT: 00:10:32 Take your time. RY: 00:10:32 Um, but, well, I, I remember getting drafted on V-J of World War II and I went, I was, I spent two, two years in the army. The war had just ended when I got drafted. AT: 00:10:51 How old were you? RY: 00:10:53 I was probably 18. Uh, I was, I think I was 16 when I graduated from high school and most of the guys that I graduated with all were older and they went in the Army. A lot of them got killed, I remember. World War II. And I, when I got my draft notice, everybody started celebrating, they said the war is over. So like I said, I got drafted on V-J of World War II. AT: 00:11:32 When you were in high school, you knew young men who were drafted RY: 00:11:36 Oh yeah. AT: 00:11:38 and left during the war. RY: 00:11:38 Yeah, yeah. World War II. And I spent two, two years in the army. Most of it was spent down in Baltimore, Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland. And because I was an artist, I got assigned to an art department in the camp. I didn' ; t have to go overseas, and I stayed there for two years. And then when my time came to get out of the army, they said, uh, join up for two more years and we' ; ll make you a, um, an officer. I said, no, I, I' ; ve got family at home that I have to go back to. AT: 00:12:35 That was your family in Chicago? RY: 00:12:37 Yes. They were still here, my mother and two sisters were still here and I was the oldest, so I felt like I couldn' ; t stay in the army. Uh, so I came out and made a living, uh, well because they gave free education. So I, I spent two years, uh, at an art school and I got a job pretty quick and I worked as an artist in Chicago doing commercial, uh, ' ; til about 1990 something when I retired. AT: 00:13:21 What school did you go to? RY: 00:13:23 It was called Lincoln School. AT: 00:13:27 For College. RY: 00:13:28 I never did get to go to college. What happened. AT: 00:13:35 For art school? RY: 00:13:35 Well, I went to art school. Uh, I went to the art art institute and also another place called the Chicago Academy of Fine Art. And I spent the most of my life doing commercial work. Uh, television just popped up and they were making little commercials, black and white commercials on TV. So I worked as a, as an artist doing TV commercials on black and white. It finally turned to color TV, I remember in 1990s, and that' ; s when I, I retired. AT: 00:14:24 And so when you were growing up on the near North Side and before the war, what was the neighborhood like? How would you describe it? RY: 00:14:41 Oh, in those days. Yeah. Your neighborhood was like five square blocks because we didn' ; t have cars or, uh, we just had bicycles and we just spent our time all within five square blocks, really. Um, I never had a car until probably when I came out of the army and that was the first time I ever had a car to drive any place outside of that neighborhood. So it was pretty primitive. Uh, there was street cars and stuff like that, uh, in Chicago. AT: 00:15:31 Did you know other Japanese Americans? RY: 00:15:36 I only knew, I think there was maybe at, there was more Japanese here in Chicago, but the ones that I knew in my neighborhood, there was probably only four Japanese, uh, families. The Joichi family that had like seven boys, the Endo family, which had four children, the Sato family that had two boys. Um, but there was no such thing as a Japan town or Chinatown, you know, so there was, they were spread out. But this was all near the near north side I would say is near Division Street and uh, Wells street area. AT: 00:16:32 And those families you named, those are folks who were there before the war? RY: 00:16:40 I would say so, yes. Yeah. AT: 00:16:44 Do you know what brought their families to Chicago? RY: 00:16:48 Uh, no I have no idea. But it seemed like most of the Japanese families all were in the restaurant business. That was, there was probably a half a dozen Japanese owned restaurants, not fancy restaurant. This is in the 30s, 20s, 30s, just little neighborhood restaurants. And they uh, it seemed like so many of them worked either owned them or worked in them in those area. Um, uh, I know some of the, the, the guys my age, they all, because we all went to the army and we all got to go, how do you say, we all got college educations and once you got educated, you, you ended up going to Philadelphia, um, different places in the country because you were educated and that' ; s where the work was, you know. So Chicago changed a lot after World War II. Before that it was very, you lived in five square blocks. But uh, like I say, after World War II ended, people went, we all got college education in whatever you wanted to learn. So they became engineers and other different people. Education. AT: 00:18:34 What were some other ways that Chicago changed after the war? RY: 00:18:39 Well, I, the biggest was that so many of the ones who came back from World War II, they got free education. So they all spread out. They went to college in New York, California, and Texas. So it kind of, people never came back. You know, they went to college in Philadelphia and they ended up living in Philadelphia, that type of thing. So all my, kids my age, I think we got free education. And your college took you to Philadelphia or California or New York and you ended up living there. They never came back. It seems like the old neighborhood just kind of dissipated after the war. AT: 00:19:42 But you decided to stay? RY: 00:19:45 Uh, yeah. I went to the Art Institute here in Chicago and I got right away, I got a job and I, I was in art field and that' ; s when television first popped up. And I was lucky enough to start making commercials for television, black and white television. And uh, in the fifties and sixties, seventies. AT: 00:20:10 And so when all of your, when your peers were taking work and moving to different parts of the country, why did you stay in Chicago? RY: 00:20:21 Because I had a pretty good job and I had a mother and two sisters that needed me. So I stayed in Chicago, and I enjoyed it. I mean, I know there' ; s art everywhere in New York or California. I had a chance to go to California, Walt Disney, I remember, but uh, I said no, I' ; ll stay here in Chicago. AT: 00:20:46 Did you support your family? RY: 00:20:48 Well, I was the main support I would say, you know? Yeah, it' ; s been so long ago, it' ; s hard to remember all the details, but, uh, part of growing up here in early Chicago, I was lucky to get an education because I spent two years in the army. AT: 00:21:23 And during the war, what was Chicago like during war time? RY: 00:21:32 Well, it' ; s uh, it wasn' ; t like the coast, I think, you know. The coast, I think people moved away from the coast, uh, for safety sake. I know the Japanese people who grew up in the California area, they got chased out of the, the coastline. So they, so many of them came to Chicago. So there was a big group, uh, Japanese people who were never there before the war, but once the war chased them out of the West Coast, uh, there was, uh, quite a handful of Japanese people here in Chicago. Whereas like I say, before the war, there was probably no more than 50 in the whole city. AT: 00:22:26 Do you remember your reactions to that? RY: 00:22:30 Well, I felt like a stranger because when I came out of the army and place was full of Japanese people, I didn' ; t know. You know, I thought, where did these people come from, you know, and I got to know ' ; em, you know, to sports and bowling and everything else. And I married one. So, but before that I was, I lived, I knew very few Japanese and there was no so-called, there was no Chinatown, there was, there was no Japantown. Very spread out, a lot more than Chinese people. AT: 00:23:16 When you were growing up, did you experience um, any kind of prejudice because you' ; re Japanese? RY: 00:23:23 Oh yeah, every now and then, you know, like when World War II started. But because you' ; re a Chi--, Oriental, they call you chink, all those, uh, and people got killed in the war and they, if you look Oriental, you know, they didn' ; t like you because they got killed fighting the Japanese army and stuff like that, but it wasn' ; t very bad. You know, occasionally you get sworn at and you know, but the, uh, there was no, no big, big thing, not to me. And, um, well, like I say, it was, this is in the 19-- what, 1940s, 50s. It was a pretty prejudiced era. AT: 00:24:24 And what, um, so you said that you were a little, you were surprised when you came back and there were a number of Japanese Americans. RY: 00:24:33 Yes, well, they got chased out of the West Coast, uh, they took most of the Japanese families that lived along the West Coast and they didn' ; t let them, because of the war with Japan, they made them all move inland. And a lot of them came to Chicago. They went to Salt Lake City and Texas and places like that. But, uh, there was so many Japanese here in Chicago that weren' ; t there before the war. And they formed their own churches and all that. And you know, I married, married one, uh, Japanese Gal who was born in California. And most of them, a lot of them went back after the war ended and they were free to go back to the West Coast. But a lot of them still stayed here. And, um, so there' ; s a, a lot more Japanese in Chicago than there were before the war, I should say. AT: 00:25:45 Do you remember when you first heard about the camps? RY: 00:25:50 Well, communication wasn' ; t that good in those days, you know, I mean, we didn' ; t have television and you have to read about it in uh, newspapers or something like that. So I didn' ; t know what was going on out there and I was only in my teen age so, you know, it didn' ; t make too much sense to me. You know, all of a sudden I see some Japanese kids in the neighborhood that weren' ; t there before and you just didn' ; t find out things too quick that, there was radio, but there was no television, stuff like that. So you learn what was going on very slowly out. You know, unless you were very inquisitive and asked questions all over the place. And I, like I say, I, that' ; s when I go, went in the army and I, I learned to, um, I got acquainted with some Japanese people because we were all in the same, uh, army camp more or less. And I had never hung around or knew many Japanese, uh, American people before the war, there was so few in Chicago. AT: 00:27:15 And so did some of those folks who moved to Chicago or maybe, maybe who you met in the army, did they tell you about their experiences during the war? RY: 00:27:28 Well, I knew that they, they were, they had farms in California and they' ; d got kicked out of the West Coast. Uh, the, you know, the army just just didn' ; t want Japanese people living along the Coast. So they made them sell their places, uh, of living and they had to go inland. And uh, the ones that ended up in Chicago, my wife' ; s family was one of them. Uh, and they had to learn new, new way of making a livin' ; than where they came from. And, and Chicago was a lot different from these California people who didn' ; t, they don' ; t like snow [chuckles] and they had to learn how to live in the snow country like Chicago. And it was cold. And in those days we didn' ; t have fancy cars and stuff like that. We had street cars and things that were, well, primitive, I say, but they, I guess they all get used to it, but a lot of them, when they had a chance, they went back to Southern California and places like that. AT: 00:29:00 Do you remember your reaction to hearing about the camps? RY: 00:29:06 The camps? Yeah. I was, I mean, it didn' ; t affect me at all, you know, no, nobody from here in Chicago had to leave their home and get put into a camp. Uh, but they chased all the Japanese people off of the West Coast and they had camps, uh, all along Arizona and, uh, places inland. Most of them, I would say, majority of them went back and tried to st--, because they, a lot of them were farmers and stuff like that, all along the coastline. A lot of them went back, but a lot of them, uh, decided to stay in the Midwest or where they got pushed back to because America was at war with Japan, so that they didn' ; t want Japanese people along the West Coast. And, but, uh, like I say, the men all, we all were in the army. So we had free education when we, if we survived the war. So we all went to school and the world changed quite a bit for us as people who, so by World War II and went to school after that and now we' ; re all college educated and stuff like that, you know, and didn' ; t have to live on a farm or anything like that. So people lived in cities a lot more, I think, after that. AT: 00:30:59 When you were growing up, um, were you in touch with your, your Japanese heritage? RY: 00:31:08 When was this here you' ; re talking about? AT: 00:31:10 When you were a kid? Did Japanese at home? RY: 00:31:15 I had my mother and father and there was probably here in Chicago, well, I can' ; t say for sure, but I knew maybe a dozen Japanese families, you know, the mothers and fathers were from Japan. But most of them were pretty old by that time the war was ending. But I grew up with the so called second generation, you know, and they' ; re, they grew up like I did. We went to primary school and high school and college here in Chicago or wherever. Um, there was no, it wasn' ; t like Chinatown, especially here in Chicago. The Japanese people were scattered quite a bit. They didn' ; t have a China, Japantown, like Chinatown had a lot of gathering of Chinese people. So, um, we just kind of melted into the, the, you know, there' ; s all kinds of different people that are Black people and there' ; s European people and stuff like that. So we were a part of that group. Uh, and so you, that' ; s what you grew up with, you grew up with Black kids and Italians and Germans and uh, there wasn' ; t no such thing as a Chinatown. There was never a Japantown like there is a Chinatown. Um, there was a Japanese area where a lot of the Japanese churches would, uh, would be. AT: 00:33:21 Do you remember some of those areas? RY: 00:33:23 Oh yeah, I can remember some of them, uh, they had some on the South Side. Um, and there was some on the North Side, you know, and then the Japanese families wandered. They' ; d be around their church group, you know, and then eventually they went out, the younger people went out to the suburbs. And before you knew it was very, uh, sparse, no, no big thing like Chinatown, you know. There was groups, areas where there' ; d be Japanese stores, uh, in one area. AT: 00:34:04 Did you ever go to any of those? RY: 00:34:04 Oh, yeah. Yeah. AT: 00:34:08 Where did you go? RY: 00:34:08 Well, uh, Clark and Division was one area that the Japanese used to hang around with and they had Japanese restaurants where you could get Japanese food, you know, and they had Japanese bars, um, and Japanese grocery stores, you know, where you could get stuff that, uh, the normal, you know, our parents liked. AT: 00:34:37 Do you remember any of those, the names of those spots? RY: 00:34:45 Oh, my memory is so bad. There was one, right on Clark Street. I remember everybody used to go there because they, they, what was the name of that, it was a, it was like a place where if you wanted Japanese food, you had to, you had to go to this place. He, he seemed to have all the different Japanese foods that they like. AT: 00:35:18 Grocery store? RY: 00:35:18 Huh? AT: 00:35:19 Groceries? New Speaker: 00:35:20 Pardon? AT: 00:35:20 It was a grocery store? RY: 00:35:22 Yeah. More or less a grocery store. But they sold, yeah. AT: 00:35:27 Star Market? RY: 00:35:28 Star Market. Yeah. It' ; s been there for a long time. Yeah. And people from all over Chicago used to come there just get Japanese type food. You know, I don' ; t know what exactly that is. Uh, you know, it' ; s rice and certain Japanese things that they like to cook with. AT: 00:35:51 That must' ; ve been a big change from before the war. RY: 00:35:59 Well, yeah, here in Chicago, but they had all these things along the West Coast. AT: 00:36:04 But I' ; m saying in Chicago though it must have been a big change to all of a sudden have a Japanese grocery store. RY: 00:36:12 Sure, oh yeah. We didn' ; t have a so-called Japanese town or China, like Chinatown or anything like that. The Japanese people were all, there' ; d be little groups of five families who had to live here and five families and stuff like that. It wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t so-called Chinatown or Japan. AT: 00:36:36 And did you, um, did you go to any churches or you or your family? RY: 00:36:42 Well I grew up in, um, Caucasian fam--, uh, neighborhood and I went to church with, uh, Caucasian kids and, um. AT: 00:36:53 What kind of church? RY: 00:36:54 It was a Lutheran church, I remember that. It was not a big church, and, um, I, we were probably the only Japanese, me and my sisters were probably the only Japanese people in that neighborhood. But, um, after the war, the Japanese groups that came from California formed their own little neighborhoods so they' ; d have Japanese church and stuff like that and grocery stores or restaurants, a lot of it was near Clark and Division, at least on the North Side. There was some on the South Side that did the same thing, you know, they, um, I think that for foreign people, you know, they stick around for the, where they can get that kind of food, you know, you know, there was a grocery store or something like that that was run by a Oriental, they wanted to be near there, you know, that type of thing. Instead of going out to the suburbs and not being able to get that kind of food or that' ; s a way it happened. AT: 00:38:14 Can you tell me more about some of the, I guess, kind of almost social groups that you joined? So you said golfing and bowling, were those mostly Japanese American? RY: 00:38:29 Well. Yeah. See, like I say, I was a little different because I was, I grew up here in Chicago and there was no so-called Japanese groups, but once a war started and I was about 12, 14 and they, they formed certain areas where they, Japanese stores would, would pop up, and Japanese restaurants. Yeah. So these certain areas, uh, had a lot of uh, Japanese people in them and they formed, they' ; d have their Japanese stores and Japanese, um, restaurants and everything else. AT: 00:39:17 And what about those sports leagues and things? You said that you did bowling and? RY: 00:39:22 Oh yeah, I bowl with everybody, you know, but eventually I ended up bowling with a Japanese group, you know, but before that I was bowling with Caucasians and different nationalities. But once, once the Japanese people formed, um, bowling leagues and golf clubs, I joined them because there wasn' ; t such a thing as a Japanese bowling league or anything like that before the war. And then once they start coming in from the West Coast, uh, those things were available, to me anyway. AT: 00:40:12 Did you ever, how did it feel being from Chicago and then having a lot of Japanese Americans coming in? RY: 00:40:26 I felt like a stranger here, I' ; ll tell ya. Because they' ; d seem to know each other and a lot of them spoke Japanese, you know? Uh, because of, their parents all spoke Japanese, so a lot of the American born guys could speak Japanese. Uh, I felt when I came out of the army, uh, and Chicago was, especially like Clark and Division area, that was full of Japanese families area. I really felt like a stranger, you know, I, I wasn' ; t used to seeing so many Japanese and, uh, Japanese stores and stuff like this. But you eventually you get used to it, you know. You' ; re not from the West Coast, but, uh, you know you' ; re same, uh, nationalities. So you mingled with them. And I ended up marrying one gal who was from California. AT: 00:41:36 Where did you meet Alice? RY: 00:41:39 I think it was at a bowling banquet. Haha. But that' ; s, that' ; s what I remember. She wasn' ; t much of an athlete, but I was a pretty good athlete, so I, uh, after the season' ; s over they have a kind of party. Bowlers come out with their girlfriends and all of that. I went there because I, I was bowling with the Japanese guys and that' ; s when I met my wife there. AT: 00:42:15 And when did you start going to Tri-C? RY: 00:42:20 Tri-C. Well, it' ; s probably when we moved. I guess, I, I was, I was living further north. I know there was very few Orientals. AT: 00:42:37 Further north from Lincoln Park? RY: 00:42:40 Yeah. I mean there was no, no other Japanese families where I, I grew up. After my father died, we had to move closer to downtown area and there was more Japanese, uh, families for some reason in that area. Wells Street, uh, Chicago Avenue, places like that and I got to know some Japanese, uh, families and kids my age and, yeah, well. AT: 00:43:20 How long were you there? In that neighborhood? RY: 00:43:28 Like I say, it was never a Chinatown like, like Chinese people have. There was no big Japantown. But there was little groups where there' ; d be maybe half a dozen families all lived there. So, um, I just, I went to Waller High School, there was no Japanese there when I started, but when they came in from the West Coast, I started having some Japanese people in my club. Uh, not club, but I got to know some Japanese families that way. You know, through school I think. AT: 00:44:17 Did anyone ever ask you which camp you were in? RY: 00:44:21 Oh yeah, they all think everybody' ; s from camp because they' ; re all from the West Coast and they all were in camps. There was like six different camps, spread along Iowa and away from the coast and they all come to Chicago and so that they think they all spent some time in camps. And I was, I never went to camp because I was, I was, I grew up here in the Midwest. AT: 00:45:05 Where, where did you move to after you were living in the Wells, um, and Chicago area? RY: 00:45:14 Well, it' ; s hard for me to remember all, I didn' ; t, I always lived on the North Side, some time closer to Downtown, some time, a little further away. Um, but mostly always on the North Side. South Side was kind of foreign to me. And so I got the meet a lot of the Japanese people who migrated in, uh, from the West Coast. Um, well. AT: 00:45:55 Where did you raise your children? New Speaker: 00:45:55 Pardon? AT: 00:45:56 Where did you raise your children? RY: 00:46:01 You asking me questions that I have to think a little. AT: 00:46:05 That' ; s fine! Yeah, take your time. RY: 00:46:07 Where were we? I' ; m trying to re... When we got married, we lived on Geneva Terrace, I think. They went to Waller High School, same as I did. Boy, it' ; s really funny that it' ; s hard for me to remember exactly where my, my kids went to grammar school. I know they went to Waller High School and they, they went to college and stuff like that, which I didn' ; t go. I went to Art Institute, uh, after I got out of the army. AT: 00:47:01 So they were probably, you were probably around this area, if they went to Waller high school. RY: 00:47:08 Oh yeah, I was always on the North Side. It seems like uh, never, we never went on the South Side much. It was just like a foreign country over in the South Side. But like I say, it' ; s hard to remember 90 years, so. AT: 00:47:30 And you' ; ve done a really really wonderful job. I mean, I don' ; t blame you. 90 years, that' ; s a long time. RY: 00:47:36 Yeah. AT: 00:47:37 So. RY: 00:47:38 Yeah. And things have changed so much over the years. Um, we had street cars, horses walking down the street and stuff like that. And now it' ; s a lot, much more modern, fast moving. AT: 00:47:59 Do you ever recognize, um, this area, I know that you know, you' ; ve, you' ; ve been having some issues with memory, but when you walk around this neighborhood, is it familiar to you? RY: 00:48:14 Oh yeah. Lincoln Avenue, Clark Street, you know, those are the main streets. They' ; ve changed somewhat, you know, but they' ; re still, Clark Street is Clark Street and I, I grew up in Lincoln Park. I was always near Lincoln Park, so I spent a lot of time swimming in Lake Michigan, playing baseball in ballparks all along. Bowling alleys are still, still around. AT: 00:48:47 Can you tell me the story about when John Dillinger was shot? RY: 00:48:52 I was, I was playing baseball about two blocks away and all of a sudden we' ; d see people you know, I, I probably, how old was I, I was probably about 10, 12 years old. And we see all these people running down towards Lincoln Avenue. I said, " ; what' ; s wrong? What' ; s wrong?" ; He says, " ; they shot Dillinger!" ; You know, so we put our stuff away and we ran down through the Biograph Theater, which is where he got shot coming out of the Biograph Theater. And you know, that' ; s, you know. AT: 00:49:39 Did you know who he was? RY: 00:49:41 Dillinger was well known to kids. I think for some reason kids, there was other, how did you say, bad guys that kids knew because they would give you tips. You know, they' ; d say, " ; gimme a newspaper kid," ; and they' ; d give you a buck or something like that, you know? Uh, I don' ; t know how you say it, but Dillinger was a famous guy. Yeah, and when he got shot at Biograph Theater, I mean that, that was a wow, you know, big, big event for people from all over the neighborhood, Wanted to see Dillinger. He was, he was a crook and all that, but he was like a hero to the young kids for some reason. ' ; Cause I went to, in school. I know some of the guys said they live in the same area that he did and he would give ' ; em a buck just to go get a newspaper, stuff like that, you know? And they all, you know, that' ; s what it was, like in the thirties. Baseball players and gangsters and everything else were, for the kids, uh, they were like heroes, you know? AT: 00:51:23 Like Al Capone? RY: 00:51:23 Yeah. Right. Well, they didn' ; t have television in those days. They just had newspaper and you, what you could hear from people talking, you know. I remember going to the Biograph Theater after he got shot and women were dipping their handkerchiefs in his blood, I remember, because he was so famous and well, a lot of people liked him because he was a gangster, a famous gangster. AT: 00:52:02 Another thing I wanted to be sure to ask about was the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked. RY: 00:52:09 Okay. AT: 00:52:10 Do you remember finding out about that news? RY: 00:52:15 Do I remember? In some ways I, I remember that I was at a Boy Scout with, our church had just started a Boy Scout, Scout... AT: 00:52:27 Troop? RY: 00:52:27 Uh, class, troop, and all of a sudden, boom. It didn' ; t happen because our scoutmaster had to go in the army. All right, well we didn' ; t have television, you know, and stuff like that in those days. So everything is from here, what you hear and you know, um... Everything was very primitive like this, you know, they, sometimes you wouldn' ; t hear about stuff for weeks, you know, radio sometimes, you know, there wasn' ; t so-called television at that time. So things didn' ; t, news didn' ; t move very fast like it does now. AT: 00:53:29 Do you remember your reactions to hearing about that? RY: 00:53:38 I would say that it didn' ; t bother me because I was, you know, a young teenager and didn' ; t make, mean that much to me, you know. But to the older people, I think in, you know, the idea of Pearl Harbor and all that was very important. And the newspapers made a big thing of it, I know. I remember because we went to war right after Pearl Harbor and so many people their, either their husband had to go into the army or the oldest son had to go in the army. So it was pretty bad time for a lot of people. You know, um, I was, I was still fairly young. I was what, 14. 1927, 41 yeah, I was, I was about 14 when the war broke out. And when I turned 17, getting ready to get drafted, the war had been going on for three years or four years and, uh, it just so happened, I got drafted on V-J, so when I reported downtown to go in the army, everybody started celebrating. There was a big party out downtown and everybody said the war, the war is over and they' ; re partying, dancing and everything out in the street. And that' ; s the day I got drafted and had to go into the army. AT: 00:55:44 What year did you meet Alice? RY: 00:55:47 Oh. AT: 00:55:49 Or how long have you been married? RY: 00:55:49 I think I was like 30 years old. So that was, I don' ; t know, what is that. I was out of the army, I know I was, I was in the army... AT: 00:56:04 Mid-50s. RY: 00:56:04 Huh? AT: 00:56:04 Mid-50s. RY: 00:56:06 Okay. Dates and everything. it' ; s kind of fuzzy. AT: 00:56:13 Um, and how many kids do you have? RY: 00:56:20 Uh, we had two girls. Um, yeah, and they have, the oldest daughter has two boys. Um, uh, well that, that' ; s my, the oldest one, uh, lives in New York state most of the time. But the son, sons come here a lot. AT: 00:56:58 Do you get to see them, so you get to see them a lot? RY: 00:56:59 Yeah. Yeah. In fact, one of them lives here now and we' ; re buddies. AT: 00:57:10 If you could leave any kind of message or legacy with your children and your grandchildren, what would you want them to, to know? RY: 00:57:18 I have no, I read a Playboy or something. I mean, I was, I was lucky. I, I was an artist so I did a lot of things that are unusual. I mean, I, I was involved in making television commercials early when television was, uh, just starting. Um, but outside of that, I didn' ; t work that hard, even though I was lucky to, I happened to work for a guy, a Chicagoan who worked at Walt Disney and when he came to Chicago and the war broke out, they, they needed, they wanted uh, how you say, but the East Coast and West Coast had had, Walt Disney and they had a well, and they could get things done by Walt Disney and the West Coast or East Coast had the stage plays and all that, so they could make play. Chicago and needed some somewhere for Chicago people to make television commercial. So they formed, my boss, the guy I worked for was a former Disney man and he started a, how you say, oh, AT: 00:59:08 Company? RY: 00:59:09 company that we made television commercials, black and white television commercials, early television. And eventually more and more came in. But uh, yeah, we were one of the first people in Chicago to make television commercials here in Chicago, because of him and him being known, former Disney man. And I learned to animate, make TV commercials, like that. So, that' ; s how my career went. Anyway, I just happened to be at the right place at the right time. And I learned how to be an animator from a guy. World War II started and they needed a guy from Walt Disney to make TV commercials. So, he taught me. Anyway, that' ; s kind of my life. AT: 01:00:20 Well, thank you so much for, for sharing all of that. RY: 01:00:25 Alright, well. AT: 01:00:25 As, as we wrap up, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that we might' ; ve missed? RY: 01:00:30 No. Well, you know, in the last, uh, 20 years, I' ; ve been more or less retired and I just have my grandkids helping them grow up. I was, I was, I don' ; t want you to say Playboy. I was involved with baseball and bowling and soccer. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been into for the last, while my grandkids are growing up. AT: 01:01:08 Well, thank you so much again, Rocky. RY: 01:01:10 All right, well. I, talk about, first time I' ; ve talked about all of this, my life. AT: 01:01:19 I really appreciate you coming in and doing this. RY: 01:01:24 Well, hope you can use it then. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamanakaIwao20171008.xml YamanakaIwao20171008.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky (10/8/2017)
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2017-10-08
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yamashiro, Constance
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/10/2018 Yamashiro, Constance (8/10/2018) 1:28:04 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamashiro, Constance Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/306094381/31852db1d8 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/306094381?h=31852db1d8" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:06 This is an interview with Connie Yamashiro as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on August 10th, 2018 at 10:13 AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Connie Yamashiro is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? CY: 00:00:39 My full name is Constance Chiyoko Yamashiro. AT: 00:00:43 Okay. And then can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? CY: 00:00:48 I was born in Los Angeles, 1938. AT: 00:00:56 When is your birthday? CY: 00:00:57 May Six. AT: 00:01:00 Okay. And, can you tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe, what their names were, where they were from. CY: 00:01:11 Okay. My parents actually were Nisei I' ; m Sansei I' ; m an older Sansei. My father, well, I don' ; t know where actually he came from, but he didn' ; t know being Japanese. He never talked about, his background as such, my mother, was I think from Hiroshima ken. But I' ; m not too sure. And they lived in California sort of scraping by, you know. Yeah. They had a, they only had one child and that was me. AT: 00:01:52 Okay. And, do you know anything about how, their parents came to the U.S. or? CY: 00:02:05 Wow, you know, they didn' ; t relate a lot about that. I don' ; t think. Okay, well they have stories. My mother' ; s parents, her father, had caught, had come first of course, and had written a letter back to Japan and requesting his girlfriend to come and join him in the United States. However, the family didn' ; t allow that girlfriend or his love to come and they sent instead her sister, from what I understand, according to the, you know, family law was that the sister was more homely. So they figured that she would have a harder time finding a husband and they kept the pretty one back in Japan thinking that they would have no problem getting her married. So the more homely sister who was my grandmother came, instead. And, I remember, she, she had a hard time, a life in America was not what she, you know, as, you know, I imagine that it would be, my father' ; s background was such that, his mother was, a little bit more bitter about everything in life. And, she complained a lot about being in America, but at the same time, I think her family wanted her out of the, out of the country. So there was all kinds of turmoil going on, you know. AT: 00:03:54 Do you have any sense of idea about what they were doing for a living? CY: 00:03:59 Oh yeah. My grandfather was a, of a, what they call a chalk farmer. When you first came and he had a place in Fresno, California and worked over there. My, my grandmother who was a widow, by the way, on my father' ; s side, lived with us because my father was the oldest child and he took care of his mother, you know, the type of thing. And do you want to know what he did for a living? He, he took the jobs wherever he could at a fishing on the fishing boats. He even worked as an extra on the MGM lots, you know, wherever he could. He tried to get a job. AT: 00:05:00 And so you were being born in 1938 you were very young when the war broke out. Do you have any memories of LA or as a child before the evacuation? CY: 00:05:17 Actually, before the evacuation, I have no memories, I don' ; t remember anything, but I do remember, going out to the camp and I remember the trip out there and I sometimes get confused whether it was a bus or train. I wasn' ; t too sure because we went to Manzanar from LA, you know. AT: 00:05:42 And, I' ; m sorry, were your parents, were they both from LA then or did they? CY: 00:05:54 Right, right, right AT: 00:05:55 Okay. So they were born in LA? CY: 00:05:58 They were .. well, my father was born in a place called I believe Stockton and my mother was born in LA, but oh, excuse me, in Pasadena. AT: 00:06:07 Okay. CY: 00:06:08 Same thing. AT: 00:06:10 Okay. And then, so you mentioned that you do, some of your first memories are actually of evacuation? CY: 00:06:23 Well, I remember the first getting into camp, I remember it was hot and dusty. It was very, very, a relief to get, I think it was a bus. I think we got off the bus, released to get off the bus. I remember I had to go, the washroom there was some kind of toilet set up that a lot of the Japanese women were upset about because it wasn' ; t completed. You know, the facilities were so bare and, there was no separation, of the individual stalls. And I do remember that because my, and everyone was in a horrible mood. My grandmother was just, I was with my grandmother. I don' ; t know why my mother and father weren' ; t with me in the same bus, but there was someplace else. And I remember my grandmother being very, very upset and angry and, we all crabby and she, and she was spanking me and you know, just because I was crying and try to figure out, you know, what was going on, that I remember. AT: 00:07:38 And so you mentioned that it wasn' ; t completed, so it sounds like you, you' ; re probably a part of that first or one of the earlier, earliest arrivals. CY: 00:07:49 Right. We didn' ; t go into the, we didn' ; t go to those horse stables and some people went into, I think the LA people in straight into Manzanar, you know, and they were putting up the barbed wire fences. I remember that very well. And a lot of constructions still going on. AT: 00:08:13 And do you have, so you actually remember like visually the, that it was under construction and they were still putting it together? CY: 00:08:22 I remember, is like scenes, you know, it' ; s like a certain pictures in your mind. And I do remember, the barbed wire. I remember the bathroom, which was such a big, you know, important, event for a little girl. And because by that time I was four and I was, well I guess trained. So I was very upset, you know, that you had to walk for half a mile to get to the bathroom and, and, it was very difficult. AT: 00:09:01 And as far as the actual like living situation and the barracks, were you, was it the same where you with your parents and your grandmother? Like at home? CY: 00:09:13 At the beginning of, it was, I remember they were there, but they went to work in what they call the sugar beet fields. And, excuse me. And I don' ; t remember seeing much of them anymore, but I was always with my grandmother. So that' ; s why as I grew up, of course I only spoke Japanese because my grandmother was being, Issei, and, and she took care of me, you know, and camp. Yeah. AT: 00:09:42 And, in that case, what was your first language? CY: 00:09:46 Japanese. AT: 00:09:47 It was Japanese? CY: 00:09:52 Um-hum, um-hum, AT: 00:09:55 To jump back a little bit, as far as family background, was your family religious at all? CY: 00:10:02 No, unfortunately they were not at all religious. My mother was, not religious at all. I don' ; t even know if she ever went into a church. Maybe she did to, visited once or something, but my father and mother were not religious. AT: 00:10:19 How about your grandmother? CY: 00:10:22 My grandmother was, always looking around for different religions and she focused, on the Christian religion because I remember she bought me a book on Bible Stories and, you know, and I became very Nambour knows all the different, stories in the, in the Old Testament. And yeah, she was, she was religious in her own way, but she wasn' ; t one to make a big deal out of it, you know. AT: 00:11:03 And do you have any other memories from camp from such a young age? Any, anything that sticks out to you when you think about? What men' ; s life was like? CY: 00:11:13 A lot of memories from camp. There was a riot in my camp, I remember that there was a big riot, there was a lot of anger about, was it the JCL? Or, yeah, I remember that. And so my father must' ; ve been around because I remember him always yelling about that. Mmm. I do remember all kinds of get togethers where there they played the, you know, the Glenn Miller music and I fell in love with all the big band sounds. There are also like events where we all went out and said, you know, we, we wanted to say something to the emperor of Japan, you know, there was this kind of of um. Yeah. Oh, oh, rising of, of I think it was among the Isseis and certain Jab and Niseis are what they call Keybase that, uh, would say that Japan is going to win. And we' ; d all have little flags that we flied around. And I remember being a little girl being happy. He had his little flag and you know, but, there were, those kinds of things that I remember. Of course the mass hall. And unusually I, I don' ; t know, in Manzanar, no, the adults ate in one section and the children ate in another, which I don' ; t think was a good idea, but, and I didn' ; t like the food. I remember that. AT: 00:12:55 Do you remember what was being served or what you didn' ; t like? CY: 00:12:59 I remember a lot of spam. I think there was a lot of spam. I hate spam now. Uh, I do remember putting shoyu and everything. And you know, it was, oh, I always remember corn on the cob cause I would save the corn and take all the kernels off and put it in my pocket and eat it like a piece of candy later, you know, cause of course there was no butter on the quarter or anything like that. Mmm. Mmm. AT: 00:13:32 Being such a young child, did you have to go to school? Or. CY: 00:13:36 No, at that time I was only four and I think they wanted me to go to some kind of a preschool ish type of thing. But I think I must have raised the faster or something and I never did end up going because I was always, you know, probably protesting or something. Yeah. I don' ; t remember. AT: 00:13:58 And do you know how long your family stayed in camp in Manzanar? CY: 00:14:02 Well, we stayed all the way through. My, when I say my family and my mother and father were in that, sugarbeet farm thing, but I was close to my aunt and my uncle and my aunt was terribly frightened of leaving the camp. She had heard the horror stories about, you know, people throwing rocks at the journeys and there was a lot of uprisings and we knew we couldn' ; t go back to California. That' ; s what I had understood that California did not want us back there. Thus, we, we were there until 44. It was, it seemed like a long time. I was there, until 44, some people left early. AT: 00:14:56 So. CY: 00:14:59 In 1944 where did your family go? Right here in Chicago. Well, was my mother, my grandmother and I, my mother and father had come out earlier because they were working, I think if you had a work permit, you are allowed to come out and, get a job. And they came out and we all sort of lived on the South Side. A lot of people among the Japanese people lived on the South Side of Chicago because they allowed us to rent apartments. So there was a lot of prejudice, but, they all, they were able to get apartments at that time. Okay. And we lived in a boarding house situation, you know, so my grandmother, I joined my parents and, it was, it was really that I remember very distinctly, you know. AT: 00:16:04 Rejoining your, your parents? CY: 00:16:08 Yeah. Huh. I asked who is that woman? They said that your mother, I said, whoa. I had no idea. I mean, you know, among children, just a couple of years absence, sometimes you, you know, you forget. And it was, I, I don' ; t know exactly how long it was, but I was very close to my grandmother at that time. AT: 00:16:32 And, just so we have it down, can you give me the names of your, your parents and your grandmother? CY: 00:16:38 My name and the names of my mother and father, you mean? Okay, my father' ; s name was Stewart. S. T. E. W. A. R. T. And my mother' ; s name was Dorothy. Okay. And my grandmother was, her name was Ekuto I think with E. K. U. T. O. AT: 00:17:05 Do you, do you CY: 00:17:05 She would be at Uchiyama now. There was, See My, when I gave you my name, of course Yamashiro that' ; s, my married when I was married, yeah, married name. AT: 00:17:14 But Uchiyama is? CY: 00:17:17 But Uchiyama is my maiden name. AT: 00:17:21 Hmm. Mmm. One thing I wanted to ask is about, I mean, you being very young and, and going into the camps, you know, that' ; s probably kind of what you knew. You weren' ; t questioning much but, did your, do you remember having any kinds of conversations with either your grandmother or your, your parents about the camp situation or? CY: 00:18:03 Well, I remember conversations. I remember my father being extremely upset, you know, because he was, at the height of his adult, or let' ; s say I was four years, who was in his late twenties. So I remember, I always remember a scene where he was crying and the, and the kit, in the barrack. And, he was very bitter about the whole war scene and very angry. So I always heard that every day when I was crying, I heard it and you know, from him in camp, and I would hear it later about how, you know, they felt very, very bitter about the whole situation. That was the kind of conversations I' ; ve heard a lot of. And, I was always told my father would say everyday, this is horrible to say too, but my father would say, never, ever trust the white person. They' ; ll act friendly, but they' ; ll always, always hate you. And they like, and I said, oh, okay, well, you know, something I learned from him because he felt so betrayed. You know, he felt his whole life had changed and altered and he wouldn' ; t go back to California for a long time until he was a much older man. You know, my child or we. AT: 00:19:38 You mean even to visit or? CY: 00:19:40 He wouldn' ; t have anything to, he wouldn' ; t have anything to do with Japan. He, he would, he had no desire to visit Japan. He had no desire to, in, in my case, it probably doesn' ; t bode well for this video. There was hardly any cultural things going on at home. He said, one of the first things is you do not talk, you only speak English. You should not speak Japanese. I mean, as I got assimilated into Chicago, I went to a private school, so I was taught English right quickly because you know, children just, you just learn it. And so, he made it a point that. Yeah. You know, a, we, we Americanize, he used to always say we' ; re not assimilated. That' ; s why we got thrown into camp. He would, you know, lecture me about people all sort of clustered together in LA and lived like, again, ghetto style. And he says that was a mistake that we made. I don' ; t know that' ; s a mistake we made. But that, you know, as if putting all the blame on, on the Japanese people, rather than the government that put us into camp, he felt that we asked for this, this was what, something that because of our behavior, because of how he looked, because of how he acted, this is what happens. AT: 00:21:15 Do you think that, his, like generation had anything to do with that? Like what do you think he would think differently if he were, say Issei or Sansei? Or I' ; m just, I' ; m. CY: 00:21:34 No, I know I, I' ; m a little unclear about how do you mean? AT: 00:21:40 I guess, do you think that he would still think that way if he were of a different generation as far as like the Japanese American community? So if you were Issei, I guess. CY: 00:21:57 Well, I don' ; t know. I have no idea ... speculating how he would feel that he was over a different track. If I was a Issei, as such at his age at that time, I would experience the whole wartime thing very differently. I think one of the interesting things about this internment camp and about our adjustment in Chicago, everything, had all dependent upon your age group. A lot of it was, it was like a, when I talked to all my girlfriends, we all play hana [inaudible], you know, the Japanese, oh, they loved it in camp and then sort of say [inaudible]. And it was the most fun I' ; ve ever had. And these girls are maybe a little older than myself. The teenage dances, the baseball games they played all the freedom from everything. And uh, in a way you can understand that it was like a big summer camp. I mean, and I think it was very hard for the Isseis. They were terrified. They had no idea if they' ; re ever going to go back to their homes in California, which many didn' ; t. And I think, for the Nisseis my father' ; s age group and you' ; re talking about which generation, I think it was devastating all their plans for like a college or a future jobs or you know, that all got scorched. And I feel that, it depended as you say, upon the generation you were in. And, my generation of course being so young, I sorta had, it was all enjoyable in a census making. AT: 00:23:52 You had your grandmother kind of taking care of you. And. CY: 00:23:56 I had my grandmother taking care of me and I had a, there was a strong community once you came to Chicago, you know, there was, which I was very, very quick and taking advantage of all the different, available resources we had, a while I' ; m not a religious person. I did go to church because going to the church, the community center, I got to make a lot of good friends and, you know, enjoy all the activities, campfire girls, et cetera, et cetera. And one thing about the South Side of Chicago became my little Japanese village. You know, you walked down the street or 43rd where I lived on 43rd and Drexel, you know, there' ; s a Japanese grocery store, a Japanese coffee shop, you know, Japanese Mochi store and you know, you just go and that whole area. And then I would go and visit all my girlfriends and, you know, who lived on various different blocks. And it was quite an interesting time. And they know that there was a community that got developed clubs. There were all of these basketball teams, baseball teams such, you know, as that, you know. AT: 00:25:28 So getting into this, this experience of coming to Chicago, do you have memories of actually traveling to Chicago? CY: 00:25:38 Yes, yes, yes, yes. AT: 00:25:39 And so did you take a train or? CY: 00:25:41 Yeah, we did take a train. I remember coming with my grandmother and my uncle and we were on this train and, I do remember we had oranges in a bag and we ate those. And I just was so fascinated by the city. I was so fascinated. I always remember that, I don' ; t know when I took the L ride or the, you know, but I thought, oh my gosh, you know, I was like, we' ; re on top of the world. And it was just fantastic because in camp you always saw him, you know, in close. You always, every day I would walk along the fence and the soldiers, occasion would give me a piece of chocolate. So I love to be able to get a piece of chocolate because they were very, you know, worrying. I don' ; t know what they were worried about. I think that, you know, we' ; re the song might jump a fence or something, but, um, you' ; re always feeling like you' ; re in closed. Whereas when you come to a place where suddenly there was no fences, it' ; s a very big experience. It' ; s a, even for, at that time I was seven or eight. It' ; s a very interesting experience, you know, freedom [delighted quiet laughing]. AT: 00:27:01 As far as the, the city itself, do you remember some of your first impressions? CY: 00:27:09 I was very, well, we went to the South Side of Chicago and, I remember, of course I was overwhelmed by everything and, but one of the problems was I was on 43rd street and the, there was a problem with the stock yards. You know, in the old days, Chicago had stock yards. And I remember once a while I get the whiff of the smell and the stock yards and we' ; d say, oh my gosh, what' ; s that? I always remember that. But we also had the lake and we would, all the kids would get together and we' ; d all walk together and go and jump off the rocks. Nowadays, this would be considered very dangerous, but we all take our towels and then go jump off the rocks off 43rd and on Lake Michigan. And this is the days before the of the show. I was even built, you know, it was a long time ago and, we really had a good time. I mean. AT: 00:28:10 Do you remember your address? The exact address? CY: 00:28:13 Well I remember many, many places we lived in, but the last address was at nine 35 east 43rd street. It was above a tamper and yeah. AT: 00:28:25 You said that was the last? CY: 00:28:27 South Side place. Yeah. Then we moved out of the South Side and we went to the West Side of Chicago. AT: 00:28:36 Just to have a sense, a better sense of where your family stayed in Chicago. Can you walk me through maybe like. CY: 00:28:50 Like where we lived? AT: 00:28:51 Yeah, kind of chronologically if possible. CY: 00:28:52 It was very hard to explain this because I came, when I came to Chicago, of course we' ; re in a boarding house on Drexel Boulevard. Then we went to this sort of like tenement building. I always remember this apartment because it was on the top floor of a big apartment building and it had one bathroom that service the whole floor type of thing. And we went there on Drexel, then we moved a few blocks and we moved down to a 43rd street and I said 935 east 43rd. But I remember right after that we moved again for a short period to, 43rd in Berkeley. Yeah. Which was a few blocks more east. So we did jump around a lot, you know, it was a. AT: 00:29:56 And by this time you mentioned that you were enrolled in a private school? Was that. CY: 00:30:01 But that was only at the very beginning when I started, when I came out to Chicago because my parents didn' ; t know what to do. They want to work all day. And my grandmother found the job at a factory and they didn' ; t know where to put me. And so no one to watch me. They put me into this St George private school on Drexel, and, so I was there until the fifth grade. And then she, my mother says they just couldn' ; t afford it anymore, but it was really nice, you know? Yeah. I was very grateful. It was a very nice school. They gave me piano lessons and you know, sometimes, I was the only of two or three kids in a class, you know, so I, it was very, very progressive. It was good. AT: 00:30:52 So very, very small class sizes? CY: 00:30:56 Yeah, it was very small class sizes. Just the first year was difficult because I was, when I was first put into, I guess first grade they said I was too old to be in Kindergarten. They up knee up to was a secondary or something and I couldn' ; t speak English. Cause I was. And I remember being very, very upset because I asked to go to the washroom, but I kept saying, you know, very slangy term of I have to go Benjo you know, and then the teacher said, just ignored me. And finally I just had an accident and she got furious with me and, I was very embarrassed and I always remembered that, she was a very, very angry teacher. She was angry that she had to deal with me. I think there was a lot, the war was still going on and, and the yard, you know, the recess yard kids would come up and say that, you know, their father was in the Pacific War and, this and that and this and that. So did, he had some problems, but it' ; s all the guy just being kids, you know. AT: 00:32:18 So even at a very young age, you were kind of experiencing this discrimination directly? CY: 00:32:27 What I would do is, because I was called a day boarder, it was a school that really was for people who boarded over there. I got to go home everyday. Someone picked me up around six O' ; clock. There' ; s, after working and I told my mother I wanted to bring a bag of candy the next stage of school. And she said, oh, okay. So she gave me a bag of candy and I would pass it out. I said, if you don' ; t hit me, if you play with me, I' ; ll give you some of my candy. And it worked, you know, and being kids, no one really is into, you know, any, theoretical problems with the war or anything. They just wanted to have fun. So I would bring my stash of candy and give it away. So it' ; s funny, I always remember that. AT: 00:33:16 Smart kid! CY: 00:33:16 I mean, you know, it' ; s a clever way of saying, okay, you get to play with me, but I, you know, you play with me, you can' ; t go around, you know, this and that, you can' ; t beat me up or anything, you know. Mmm Mmm. AT: 00:33:32 You mentioned your grandmother found a job at a factory. CY: 00:33:36 Some factory I, they used to jump around. Those jobs were, yeah. Yeah. AT: 00:33:42 And how about your parents? What were they doing? CY: 00:33:45 Oh, gosh, my mother found a job in a factory. My father was always a, well, it' ; s, it' ; s sort of embarrassing to say my father was more of a gambler and he liked to go to the pool hall and he liked to go to the tracks. And so I, you know, he had occasional jobs here and there, but he really didn' ; t, I can' ; t remember anything that he really did, you know, as a profession or as a, as a career really. He had all these little jobs. He was a line cook at a restaurant once and you know, whatever. AT: 00:34:32 So, in that case, do you think that it was probably your mother and your grandmother who had the steady income? CY: 00:34:42 It was my mother who basically had the steady income, from the, from this factory. Umh. AT: 00:34:50 And do you remember what these, what kind of factories they were? What? CY: 00:34:55 Fishnet factory I remember she had and she was very upset. I forgot the year when they moved out of Chicago. Yeah. And, she had to find another job. Um, where did she go after that? I think she went to UPS and found a job at UPS. Oh Wow. And then after that she found a job with an insurance company that, I think continental, yeah, downtown. And she was there until she retired. Yeah. So she always had a steady job. This is a woman who always worked, you know. AT: 00:35:42 Had she worked in LA as well, do you know? CY: 00:35:46 Well, my mother was very young when she had me and I imagine that a, she used to, Oh yes, she did. She worked in the, on first street in the, she said them, Ma Manju or Mochi place that, yeah, yeah, she worked there, but you know, there' ; s like a high school type of salary. AT: 00:36:10 It back in LA. CY: 00:36:12 Yeah. AT: 00:36:14 So you, you shared a little bit about those earlier days and the South Side and you had mentioned that there is a bit of a Japanese American community there, that there were restaurants and. CY: 00:36:36 It was a huge community. Yeah. AT: 00:36:38 Grocery stores? Can you maybe go into a little bit more detail about, I guess to start maybe some of those businesses that you were recalling the grocery store, if you remember their names are, or where they were located? CY: 00:36:57 Well, the name of one' ; s Fujimoto' ; s grocery store. He owned the building. Actually, on 43rd street here. A lot of the real estate in the area. Fujimoto' ; s. Well, I forgot the teapot in. I think my mother worked there for awhile as a waitress. Mmm. I' ; m trying to remember the, then you' ; re asking for the names of these places. I don' ; t remember the names, but I remember. You know, Oh, there was this, a store that sold a Mochi, you know, flavored Mochi down the street. And we would go in there and buy one just to munch on and that was run by an old, I thought at that time old, probably younger than me now, old, Issei man who did, who ran the business by himself. AT: 00:37:58 And, if you were to kind of map out the area where some of these businesses, and I imagine there were a lot of Japanese American families living there too, like residents. So in thinking about the South Side at that time, like where do you think those, I mean not to put it in borders in terms of borders, but that area, where would that have spanned to and from? CY: 00:38:30 Well, you' ; re asking what t and g geography of that was? It was a huge area. You know, there were Japanese friends of mine that lived on 39th street, way down, much more south and, or maybe that would be north, I guess, excuse me. And there were a large, and these people that live more further up north, closer to the school. I went to Hyde Park high school. So going up and that area, you' ; re going into a 51st or 52nd now called the Hyde Park area, you know? Yeah. So there were, it was quite a big area in a sense of speaking it dependent on financial too, if you like. My, my mother' ; s family and we were all sort of like eking out a whatever living we could. We had a more of a rough time, but the Japanese [inaudible] came out or camp with more of a financial, let' ; s say, cash co stash, so to speak. They were able to afford buying buildings. They bought a, some buildings and they lived more, north more south, more south, more, more in the Hyde Park area. It depended upon your financial situation. AT: 00:39:59 And, so you mentioned you went to Saint George until fifth grade. Where did you go? CY: 00:40:08 After that? I went to a school called Shakespeare Grammar school. Yeah, yeah. It was on the South Side. AT: 00:40:17 And from there you said you went to Hyde Park high school? CY: 00:40:21 Yeah. AT: 00:40:24 Um and can you, uh, tell me a little bit more about the, the demographics of that neighborhood and those schools? At that time. CY: 00:40:37 It was, at that time it was. AT: 00:40:41 Okay. CY: 00:40:42 It was a lot of Jewish kids. There were, Japanese and Jewish and I used to play with some of the African American kids that, there was more or less, color line, I would call it between 43rd and Drexel then. And there was a street called cottage grove. And on the other side there was influx of, African Americans, you know, who made the great migration, as you probably know, you know, and they were coming into the city too. At the same time, a lot of the Jewish people were abandoning the area because the Japanese came in and whatever, and lot of them moved into the suburbs and north, you know, Chicago, et cetera. So, although, you know, I have friends who, strangely enough when they came to Chicago like Jean Machine Ma, you know, we were talking about she, lived on the West Side of Chicago and, she grew up among, mostly Caucasian people was I grew up mostly it was all Japanese, you know, Japanese Americans, so to speak. AT: 00:42:08 Okay. And, as you were growing up in Chicago, did you, besides school, did you have any other activities? CY: 00:42:17 A lot. Yeah, the activities were centered around, the, the church actually because they provide a lot of Bible study things and I would go to summer camps and, I made a lot of friends. I used to go up and down the street going into and taking my doll buggy and, and, looking for people to play house with. And, yeah, it was nice time. AT: 00:42:53 And, what was the name of this church? CY: 00:42:56 You know, I knew you' ; re going to ask that. Oh, now I remember Ellis community center. It was actually a church, too. Ellis community center. AT: 00:43:09 Okay. AT: 00:43:10 And. CY: 00:43:11 There was a reverend. I remember the reverend Nishimoto. Yeah, he was very good. AT: 00:43:23 And so there you said that there were a lot of activities through the church? CY: 00:43:27 Yeah, well it' ; s through that community center, we would go, we could go every day and we' ; ll go on to the, what they call a play area. There was a pool table. Um, they participated in, you know, years are gone and they' ; re still doing it at the Museum of Science and Industry. There' ; s something about Christmas around the world every year Christmas we participated in that. The group from the Ellis community center, we got to put on a, I guess a skip. I was not really a skip so much as it was the story of the birth of Jesus, you know? And it was really very exciting that we were at the museum and we were so proud of ourselves or you know, just I guess a fourth, fifth grade kids and I to this day, I remember my teacher there named Mary Matsumoto and she, she makes watch and impression on me, you know, such a wonderful impression. AT: 00:44:28 What did she teach? CY: 00:44:30 Well, I don' ; t really know. She was our Sunday school teacher, our counselor, you know, she sort of just hovered over us. She took care of everything, you know, she was actually a very young woman, but I, you know, I, of course when I' ; m young like that, I think, I think she' ; s an older lady. She must' ; ve been all of 19 or 20 and, and, going to college or something, you know, but I always remember her. She was very warm and, sort of like a mentor later. You know, I remember. AT: 00:45:09 One thing I' ; m curious about is you mentions. The, how strongly your, your father and your grandmother, specifically, how they had kind of, what their response was to the war and the evacuation. CY: 00:45:29 Very embarrassing to talk about that, they were very bitter. I mean, that' ; s all I can remember is that I think two of my father' ; s dying day, he was, you know, he might' ; ve been suffering from depression and I have no idea such, but I know that, oh, my father had a lot of trouble, with, you know, different races. He had issues, you know, when, I would play with my, different friends, you know, and, he was very, very bitter man. So I, I try and, you know, remember that try to overcome that kind of thinking. AT: 00:46:21 Well, and my question was, did he, and maybe your grandmother, if you remember, when you made the move to Chicago. Did they still have or, share some of those feelings with you? Are, maybe about the move or about Chicago itself or did anything change? CY: 00:46:53 Well, you asking if they were still bitter about everything? AT: 00:47:01 Or, if there was bitterness about being in Chicago, you know, kind of uprooting and starting a new in this. CY: 00:47:08 Well, yeah, they did. Yeah. Because it' ; s interesting that when you came to Chicago, I had my aunt around, I had an uncle, I had a lot of relatives. Every single one of them left within a period of year or maybe two years after we got here, they all went back to California. They hated it. They hated Chicago. I think probably the biggest excuse was the weather. But I think they were not used to it. They, you know, they grew up in California and it was entirely different kind of country and, they want to go back there and they regarded as home. So, so I think, a lot of them eventually went back and my father never would, as I said, you know, until, until he was an old man, you know. AT: 00:48:07 And did you have any feelings about it? CY: 00:48:11 About going back to, oh, well I did in the sense that when I was a teenager, I lost a lot of my friends. They were all going back. There was a strong migration of Japanese American families going back, you know, to California. And, I sorta wish, oh, I wish I could go back to, but it was something that when you' ; re a child, you don' ; t really conceive of what it would be like. All you know is that you' ; re here in Chicago, this is your home and you' ; ve grown up here all your life. So, it was something that, it never occurred to me, you know. AT: 00:48:52 And, being a kid in Chicago or you know, of course growing up here. And having those types of experiences where it' ; s, you know, a pretty strong reminder of what happened during the war and kind of how you had ended up in Chicago as a kid growing up here, were you pretty self aware of, you know, like how you had gotten to Chicago, or this kind of. This particular experience, you know, was camp something that people, young people were aware of or thinking about or talking about? CY: 00:49:37 Actually, they referred to it back and forth, but it was not something that was discussed at any length. You know, it was, you know, how kids are teenagers more interested in the next dance or the next get together. And, I think we all sort of huddled together. You know, we all felt more protected by being very, very close. We are in the organizations where in the interclub council, I remember, you know, it was very interesting because, I think the people that ran, you know, people like the resettlers committee, which I think preceded of course the JASC now that I think they worked very hard at trying to establish a cohesive community. And I very grateful for that because I feel rather proud of the way we, integrated into the city and how, I, I believe Chicago welcomed us of for the most part, you know, for the most part. And Japanese were very good at keeping a very low profile. So it' ; s not to rock the boat, so to speak. You know, we were good workers and, a lot of my friends became very, good scholars. They went to colleges, et cetera, and they had a very good life, you know, and that was a, that was part of the nature of the, I think, the personality of the Japanese people. AT: 00:51:45 I want to touch on a specific thing that you had mentioned. So you mentioned the interclub council. Yeah. Can you tell me more about your involvement and that or other clubs? CY: 00:52:02 Do you remember? I mean, you don' ; t remember of course, because. AT: 00:52:05 Not personally, but. CY: 00:52:06 But you' ; ve heard of it. I, I have a friend named Miyoko Awakawa, I dunno, she know her, but anyway, she was one of the, excuse me, officers of interclub council and we were all involved in that because of our organization, in sports, especially at where we would all play at a place called Olivet, community center, I guess Olivet community center. AT: 00:52:43 Olivet Institute? CY: 00:52:45 Exactly, exactly. And they would have meetings. I remember going to the meetings and I actually don' ; t remember what we talked about, but, it was good because it was a, as a way of joining up and having an agenda and making sure that, people all felt included, you know, and, sports was a good vehicle, I feel for getting young people together. You know, it was, besides all the dances and all that, but a sports is a way that people among the Japanese groups felt comfortable. Excuse me. AT: 00:53:36 And, so was this something that kind of took place? Because of course they' ; re the Japanese American community in Chicago, sort of in these earlier days of late forties, early fifties, and on, people were kind of spread out? CY: 00:54:01 Oh, yes, yes. AT: 00:54:04 So I' ; m curious about first something like interclub council. Was this something that was like focused on any particular neighborhood or area or group or like who, who was. CY: 00:54:16 Reason it was good is it focused on the fact of combining the South Side and North Side teams together so that we didn' ; t feel like, for a long time though the South Side teams, the same would feel the North Siders were like, you know, complete strangers to us and they were our enemies and we were very competitive, you know, but the interclub council was, I think it was a way to have us all get to know each other, which I thought was very smart, you know, now that I look back on it and we all made friends and I think, you know, everything was like North Side, South Side, the North Side had a Clark and Division area as you must have known. And, they had all the clubs as et cetera, so that when we had basketball games, we had the North Side teams versus the South Side teams and, and you know, there are things like we would have a beauty contest. I remember, a Nisei queen and all that kind of stuff going on those days. It was, it was always attempts to try and enjoy all the different, Japanese groups, you know, not to keep them so separated. AT: 00:55:49 And what, if there were like a greater reason, or intention behind this kind of. CY: 00:55:55 You know, I really don' ; t know. I wasn' ; t part of the organization as such, I just participated in it. But I do know that, people were all, you know, you have to be at the time, you have to be joining things because that' ; s the only way, you know, your life is filled with some kind of, you know, enjoyment. You know. It was a time when I, I, when I remember going to high school and at time that I went to change later, I will, they said, you know, a girl want to get into a try high wide club. They had these high wide club and try our clubs. And, they told her because she was Japanese, she was not allowed to get in. And, I mean those, complete discrimination at that time. And, I heard that changed later of course. But, when we were younger, we were told we can' ; t do this. We can' ; t do that because, you know, that' ; s for the white people, and this is for the, you know, this is the Japanese, you know, because they don' ; t want you there and they don' ; t like you. So why do you push the button, you know, so to speak. And, I think we' ; re always trying to, it was a, it was a hard time in the sense that it was postwar. It was postwar but, a lot of people still had strong memories of the war time. And, because of that, it' ; s very hard to figure out, you know, how you can tread on this kind of a problem. You know, people, you know, some people just said, oh, I don' ; t care. You know, it' ; s fine with me. You know, I don' ; t care if the, I get discriminated against or what. But I think the Japanese people were very frightened, especially the ones that were in camp. The ones that were a little bit older than me that already been tossed around, locked up behind barbed wire. They were very, very careful about not rocking the boat. Now, you know, my daughter came along and, you know, my, the younger generation, I don' ; t think they quite understand how, how, how, we are so bogged down by the environment that we were in because I think a lot of people say, well, you could have just, you know, fought back. You could have done this or you could' ; ve done that. But, you know, it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t like that. It was very, it' ; s very hard to explain and I' ; m sure people wiser than I am, can figure that out some day. But it' ; s one of those, it' ; s one of those things. It' ; s like how the Jews walked into the concentration camps or, you know, how you just follow orders, you know, you figure, well, everyone' ; s going to be good to us if we just, you know, behave. And I think that, that was a big point among Japanese people who were there. They knew how to behave. Then you how to take orders. They knew how to not rock the boat, but that' ; s no longer the way it is. That' ; s why when I read about the march, that' ; s something that would never have happened in our days. See, it' ; s, it' ; s almost, you never want to put the spotlight on you. You always avoid that since those days are gone. Thank goodness. CY: 00:59:57 Hmm. AT: 00:59:59 Let' ; s see. So this is, this is great because, you know, you were, like I mentioned where we' ; re interested in this period of resettlement and you' ; re kind of right at that age where you' ; re, you know, going through, these clubs and sports programs and, and things like that. I' ; m wondering if you can tell me a little bit about, I mean, I, so the kind of establishment or organized organization of a community isn' ; t something that you might necessarily realize is happening at the time. CY: 01:00:49 That' ; s right! AT: 01:00:50 But I' ; m wondering in retrospect if you' ; d be able to tell me about, kind of some of the, the institutions or organizations or people that you remember kind of making that happen in Chicago. So whether it' ; s folks that, all of it, I mean, granted you were of a certain age, so you' ; re going through a particular experience of, of this development of community development. But what are some other, groups, or places maybe that was a part of this kind of founding of a community here? CY: 01:01:43 Are you talking about organizations like. AT: 01:01:46 Or churches or, anything? CY: 01:01:48 Well, I remember I didn' ; t attend the church, but I remember the Buddhist church was a very strong influence. A man called Reverend Kubosei was the reverend. And this was on the south side of Chicago. And, that was quite a meeting place for a lot of teenagers, older teenagers. Got to meet them, future boyfriends, girlfriends, etc. That was good, organization as such. I think a lot, another thing that was good is that there were some big businesses such as, well, I, I was very fortunate. I always got a job. As I got older, I was working and I worked over at a place called Del farms as a, as a grocery checker. And, I got that job through Mr Sunohara. I worked for him. Years later I worked for Henry Ushijima, who was a filmmaker for documentaries for Mayor Daley and I worked for him as a girl Friday. I always seem to be working with Japanese people. I worked for a man named Omar Kaihatsu, who was, I think he died now, but I worked for him as a secretary for awhile. So I was very fortunate. I had all these, you know, Japanese people helping me out. AT: 01:03:33 And was this post high school or in high school? CY: 01:03:37 Well, this is post of course. Yeah. During high school, I had, I worked at that Del Farms as a teenage cashier, you know. AT: 01:03:51 So maybe as a weekends or after school kind of job? CY: 01:03:55 It was after school. I would go there after school and on weekends. Yeah. And I was a. I was very happy. I liked the job. It was fun because I got to meet a lot of people. AT: 01:04:08 And where was that located? CY: 01:04:09 The first, the one I worked at was on North Avenue and Armitage. It was called Del Farms. Okay. AT: 01:04:19 And what year did you graduate high school? CY: 01:04:21 I graduated in 1955. AT: 01:04:26 Okay. And, can you tell me a little bit about what you did after high school? You mentioned a few of the jobs, but. CY: 01:04:39 Huh, the problem was, right after I graduated I had this boyfriend, the Yamashiro of home. Okay. He wanted to get married. So foolishly I got married when, several months after I graduated, which was much too young and I was still working part time here and there. But that was. That was what I did. I got married and I' ; m with it all the problems of being a housewife, which. AT: 01:05:21 Did you two move in together or move? CY: 01:05:25 Yeah, I yeah, he actually, he moved in with me into my, into my house where I lived with my mother and father and grandmother. AT: 01:05:33 And was, where was that at that time? CY: 01:05:36 That was on the West Side of Chicago. Yeah. AT: 01:05:43 Would you remember the streets of the address of that apartment or was it a house? CY: 01:05:49 It was a house. It was a, it was a, it was on a street called Bloomingdale, near, was now I think called Bucktown area. But at that time it was pretty bad. AT: 01:06:07 And, did you move anywhere after that path? CY: 01:06:13 Yes, all over the city. So my husband and I then moved to a place honoree Racine my girlfriend' ; s father on the building near a Wrigley Field, it was Racine and Addison and, moved over there for a little while. And then from there we moved to an apartment on Orchard Street near Diversity and Orchard, which, you know, is so I know all these neighborhoods. And, then, then, we moved up north to the fringe of uptown area, is a Clark and Foster area. And shortly after that my kids were growing up, I had two children. Actually I had three. One died. So I had, with two children and, I eventually got a divorce. Okay. So we lived up on Clark and Foster then. Yeah. I sold the place and moved to Ravenswood Manner, which I told you about that one. And I' ; d been there for over 40 years. Okay. This is all sort of personal stuff, you know. AT: 01:07:48 And. CY: 01:07:49 I, and you' ; re editing it, I hope. You know. AT: 01:07:52 Yes. no, and to be clear, it' ; s just, one of the reasons we' ; re curious about where people stayed and lived is. CY: 01:08:03 You have to remember too, Chicago has changed a lot. AT: 01:08:05 Sure. CY: 01:08:06 Chicago' ; s one of those cities that, when you say now, I lived on Orchard Street near the [inaudible]. Oh, you know, such a great neighborhood. At that time it was all tenements, you know, it was really, really a bad neighborhood. Everything changes in Chicago. It depends on, you know, you could live across from Cabrini Green. My son had a place a business establishment across from Cabrini Green and then the city went and changed it all around and now became all yuppie area. And Yeah. So the taxes went up and, everything is, changed. It' ; s interesting this city is a van or location, location, location. AT: 01:08:51 Right, right. And, so as you mentioned before and kind of what' ; s you know, pretty generally understood by, I would say, Japanese American community members here in Chicago is, in when people were first coming from camp, there were a lot of challenges in finding housing. There' ; s a lot of housing discrimination and, you know, some issues with some of the neighborhoods where people were actually able to find housing. And you mentioned that, you know, some of these areas where you' ; d stayed. Of course, it' ; s not the same that it was You know, even 10 years ago for some of these spots, were there, did you have any, Were there any challenges in the, in some of these past homes or apartments or, CY: 01:09:52 Well, it' ; s interesting that you say that, but it has nothing to do with, I think it being Japanese American, I had a hard time. I own the, you know, I sold the place on Clark and Foster and I wanted to get a mortgage for my place on the Ravenswood. And I had a hard time because I was a single woman and a lot of at that time a single woman was very, very risky for banks to give them a loan to and no husband. I said I could pay it by myself. I had a job at a hospital and they said, well, you know, it' ; s, you know, you, you' ; re not married. And so I went jumping from place to place and I finally found, Tom and at that time, Tom, and so they would give me a mortgage, but that was due to other people had that problem too, being, being a woman without a husband created all kinds of, you know, cultural issues, which is not the same as now of course, you know. AT: 01:11:00 Sure. And it' ; s not the same as 1945. CY: 01:11:06 Oh yeah. Well 1945. Yeah. That was a nightmare year. Yeah. AT: 01:11:12 So we have a, just a little bit of time left, let' ; s see. I guess, but before I get into kind of a random question, is there anything else, you know, as far as, so since, you know, we are curious and interested in learning more about resettlement in Chicago and kind of those, this start of, you know, a pretty strong Japanese American community, or at least Japanese American presence in Chicago. Are there any other things that come to mind or that you' ; d want to share and, helping us have a better sense of what that was like? CY: 01:12:05 It was interesting. It was a time of transition. I don' ; t really know if I can, you know, really help you out with that because, it depends on, as I say, the times, the times are changing very quickly, very fast. It was unheard of at the time that, you know, when I was young, but to be mixed marriages, for instance, as such, my daughter is married to a German fellow. You know, I mean, it' ; s so different now, you know, but at the time, you know, it was, it was a very narrow way to see the world. And I think we maintained that I have in this Japanese community and having boyfriends in that group and having the clubs all know each other. We tried to sustain and maintain it, but a lot of them, as we got older, we have what we call reunions. We' ; re old now and, there are certain was like, I like to go to the unions. Say, Have it in Las Vegas or something, but there are some of the people that just want nothing to do with it one. Nothing, as a reminder, it depends on, I guess what you got out of it for yourself. You know, I feel like, it created a lot of good memories for me. There was some sad memories too, and, self worth. But I feel that, I feel that it was very, very unique. You know, it' ; s like I get together with Japanese people now, my church. I do go to church now. And, and you know, you get, you meet people in the first thing you said, one of the first things you say, where were you in camp? You know what, someone who was around my age in the 80s and what camp are you in? So it' ; s a form of, you know, it' ; s a touchstone that, because say, you know, and I' ; ve had friends who were not in camp who are almost jealous of the fact that, well, I don' ; t have the community sense that you do because I don' ; t know these people are that people are there. Because, I was, I stayed in Chicago. I said, well, I just stay in Chicago because if you' ; re in Chicago and the war broke out, you were not sent into a camp. It' ; s interesting that, I feel, I was more privileged to be able to be in this, history. I don' ; t think my children will ever understand us, you know, because they see it as a sort of anomaly, you know, that, you know, the world' ; s, so you' ; re Japanese Ameri and, so what? You know, their attitude, well, it was a big thing at the time. It was a community that could never be reestablished and it was unique and, we thought it would go on forever, you know, at the time [Inaudible] and it doesn' ; t like everything else, you know, it, it dissolved and, that' ; s what' ; s so sad about it. You know, it is what it is, you know what I' ; m saying? AT: 01:15:52 Do you, are you saying that the community dissolved, that sense of community? CY: 01:15:57 Yes, yes, yes. Which is good because it was too enclosed. AT: 01:16:03 Yeah. Do you have any, any thoughts of why that might have happened or what happened? CY: 01:16:09 Well, I believe one of the things is that we were all together because we were desperate for trying to survive. You know, at postwar. But as people became more prosperous, as people became more aware that they could establish themselves in the city, they felt that they wanted to go into like the suburbs or they felt they didn' ; t want to be tagged along with, you know, provincial ideas of being a Japanese community as such. And I can understand that, you know, it' ; s, you got one foot in that, one foot in this other, what you want to do is you want to be just as the same as the whole population here. There' ; s a sense of, we, you know, we all felt we weren' ; t less than but we were not Caucasian people, you know, so it' ; s interesting. It' ; s a very, very half and half type of thing. Yeah. I don' ; t know how to put it. AT: 01:17:26 It is interesting and I keep thinking about what you were sharing about, some of your father' ; s perspectives because on the one hand he, you mentioned he was pushing for, you know, we need to assimilate that, you know, it' ; s almost like, you know, quote unquote our faults or, you know, we' ; re taking on the burden. CY: 01:17:50 Right, right, right AT: 01:17:51 But on the other hand, when you were bringing home friends who are not Japanese, you said. CY: 01:17:58 Oh, it' ; s terrible. AT: 01:17:58 He had issues with it. So it' ; s, it' ; s kind of, that' ; s what I' ; m, to what you' ; re saying, that' ; s just what I' ; m thinking about is kind of this double edge sword. CY: 01:18:08 Yes. Yes. Especially I had real close Korean girlfriend. Oh yeah. It' ; s just the whole, I had to see her on the sly, so to speak. And yeah, he had all kinds of, very, racial or racist ideas about people. I don' ; t know, it was just his ideas that would be a projection of his own anger. I remember he, he worried about, when I was growing up about my being dark, he said, don' ; t let yourself get dark. And if they would rub lemon all over me thinking that, and they were worried about, you know, looking, to, Asian, that was a big thing. You know, he felt that was a detriment. And, he, he himself, put a great emphasis on appearance of, you know, Japanese people, you know, he felt it was very exhausting to be around. Yeah. In that sense of speaking, you know, AT: 01:19:33 So again, we just have a little bit of time left. I' ; m curious in, in your opinion and. With the perspective of a lot of time and distance from, you know, the war and all of that. What are some of the ways, if any, that the wartime experience and resettlement impacted your life or maybe you as a person or? CY: 01:20:15 It' ; s a big question. You mean the whole experience and how it impacted my, I don' ; t really know how to put it. It' ; s very hard to explain. I, all I know is that as I' ; ve gotten older, I wasn' ; t like that when I was young, but as now I' ; m in my eighties. I often feel like. Okay, let me put it this way. There' ; s a, there' ; s a magazine I just read about the article and the Crazy Asians, you know, about the Chinese American community that' ; s all excited about finally getting through and having a film about them as a contemporary. And I was thinking, you know, it took a long time for that to happen. It wasn' ; t the issue of them being in a, you know, dragon lady type of thing or anything like that. But, I thought, that' ; s how I felt about the Japanese Americans that we were always seen as a, you know, the Geisha girl or something like that. And I always felt a little resentful about that, but I figured that' ; s the way it is. And, you know, you can' ; t change it, but sometimes I, I, I really do get upset about, you know, how people come up to me and, and I saw ignorance, you know, saying, well you speak English very well, or you know, or this and that. And I think, and then I' ; m always surprised at, I have a girlfriend who was next door and was a lawyer who had no knowledge, hardly any knowledge of the camp. I mean, this is a woman who' ; s been through, you know, university and everything. But she had, she said, well, how was it like, and what was it like and why and this and then I thought to myself, you' ; re the one that' ; s an attorney. You should probably know all these answers. But you know, it could see that some people are just so not aware of these things. And it' ; s sort of gets me a little angry that that kind of knowledge hasn' ; t been a shared. It isn' ; t that no one cares. It' ; s just that no one bothered, you know, it' ; s like, it' ; s like when I read all the history of the American Indians, I mean, I' ; m sitting there shocked by what happened is because no one actually teaches you these things and this is what' ; s going on with me now. It took me a ... Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamashiroConstance20180810.xml YamashiroConstance20180810.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Yamashiro, Constance (8/10/2018)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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Takada, Anna
Kuramitsu, Keilyn
Interviewee
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Kanemoto, Neil
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5.4 11/15/2017 Kanemoto, Neil (11/15/2017) 1:31:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Kanemoto, Neil Takada, Anna Kuramitsu, Keilyn video 0 https://vimeo.com/309196898 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/309196898?h=4b5b5a32ca" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 To start, can you just state your full name? Neil Kanemoto: 00:00:02 Um, I am Neil Kanemoto. My middle name: Yoshio um, but uh, I don't use that. Um, the only time I've really heard it in my life, is one of my father gets mad at me and when I was growing up and he would, when he's gets, gets mad at me, he would always say, "Yoshio!," um, but otherwise, that's the only time anybody has ever addressed me by my middle name. AT: 00:00:28 Okay. And, um, can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? NK: 00:00:33 I was born on September 20th, 1943, at the Tule Lake internment camp in, uh, northern California. AT: 00:00:45 And, um, where, where were your parents originally from? NK: 00:00:53 Um, my parents, were from Seattle, Washington. Um, my, grandparents, I guess came to the United States in about 19, the early 1900s before 1910. Um, my father's family, my father and his wife moved to Seattle and, uh, he opened a barbershop there. My mother's parents got married in the United States. My grandmother was a picture bride and they settled in Tacoma, Washington. And, uh, my grandfather, my matur- maternal grandfather owned a meat market there. And my mother worked in the meat market there in Seattle and that's where my parents met, in Sea- in Tacoma. AT: 00:01:54 Okay. And, um, do you have any siblings? NK: 00:01:59 Uh, I have two sisters. Janice, who was a year older than me and Jane who was two years younger than me. I had a older brother, Bobby, who, he was born in 1937 in, uh, Seattle. And he died in 1944 in camp in Minidoka. AT: 00:02:32 Um, so that means that you were the third child? NK: 00:02:37 in the birth order I was number three, yes. AT: 00:02:42 Um, okay. And then, um, do you, can you tell me what you know about, um, what happened to your parents and your family around the time that the war broke out? NK: 00:03:05 At the time the war broke out, my parents, while they got married in 1936, um, they lived in Seattle, Washington. My father worked for a dry goods company called Furuya and Company. Um, where they sold dry goods basically. They lived in Fuji Hotel during, in that, those few years before the war. When the war broke out, they were sent to the Pinedale relocation center in, by Fresno, California. Or I guess it's actually in Fresno, California. And they were there until they were sent to, Tule Lake. My sister Janice was born in the Pinedale camp in 1942. After, um, my older sister was born, they finished their construction of camp and we were sent then to, Tule Lake and I was born there. About two months after the, um, I was born, we moved from Minidoka to- from Tule Lake to Minidoka. And I guess that was the point at which the Tule Lake was being filled up with the No-No Boys, the uh, supposedly the hardcore resistors to the, um, to the internment. Uh, so they were the, the former, uh or the people that were in Tule Lake were given an option to either stay there or move to other camps. So, um, we, our family moved to Minidoka. AT: 00:05:07 And so at that time it was your parents and the three young children, is that right? NK: 00:05:14 Uh, yes. And then in 1944 a year after I was born, then my brother died of illness so. They called it blood poisoning. But uh, at that point they didn't have the antibiotics and medicines to take care of him. So he passed in camp. AT: 00:05:39 Um, do you know how long was your family, um, in each of these places, when NK: 00:05:48 I think they were in Tule Lake for about a year. They were in Minidoka for a couple of years. Now my, in Minidoka my grandparents were there as well as my uncles, two uncles, uh, they were there also. My grandfather was quite a adventure-type guy. And, uh, he left camp early. He left camp in 1944 before most of the people, uh, well most of the people were still in camp, I guess. Uh, if you go east or away from the Pacific states, you can, people are allowed to leave. Uh, he, since he owned a business and he was fairly well-to-do at that point. He had a car that a neighbor kept for them. And so he, with his car, he and my grandmother decided to look for a place somewhere to live for the family. So he took off east and went across the country, went through Chicago, went to the east coast, up and down the east coast, down even down to Florida, looking for different places. I, um, and then he, uh, decided that Chicago was the place, uh, the best place for the family to be. So he went to Chicago and set up residence there and, uh, going to war when people were, most of the people were leaving camp, he called for the rest of the family to come. And that's how we got to Chicago in, uh, late 1945. AT: 00:07:48 Wow, so he toured around for a bit before making... NK: 00:07:48 Yeah, I think he, for about six months, he, uh, he went around the country and looked at different places and... AT: 00:07:59 Do you have any idea of sense of how he was able to fund a trip like that, did he have some savings or? NK: 00:08:01 I think he had enough savings. Um, he was very fortunate in, with his business, his meat market. And, uh, he had a very good neighbor, um, the Wunders. He always talked about the Wunders and uh, they bought the business from him with apparently a reasonable price, not, not a giveaway, kind of a price. And they actually stored his belongings and kept his car and they were good fam- close family friends. So, uh, with his money that he had from his business and from, and his car and he was able to, I guess do pretty well with his cross country journeys. AT: 00:09:01 And um, to clarify, this was your mom's father? NK: 00:09:05 Yes. AT: 00:09:07 Um, and as far as, um, so of course you were very young when you were in camp. Um, where, where are your first memories? NK: 00:09:22 When we moved to Chicago, well when, when the war ended, I was basically an infant. So I have no recollection, no memories at all. Uh, when we moved to Chicago, my grandfather bought a three-flat building in Douglas Park on Kedzie, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, not Kedzie, um, Albany Avenue and about 13th Street. Um, and it was a three story building. And my grandparents lived on one floor, we lived on another floor, and my uncles lived on the third floor. Um, that's where my first childhood memories are. And I have uh, we moved from there when I, when I was still four years old. But I have a few memories, uh, of that. And so that's... AT: 00:10:15 And I want to ask you more about that, but, um, before we move on to some of these Chicago experiences, um, were there any kind of, um, stories that you often heard about camp or kind of like a family collective memory about camp? NK: 00:10:41 Um, camp was, uh, it was not a taboo subject, like in some families where they refused to talk about it, but they did talk about camp and the way, it wasn't in a negative tone. So it was more like just a, a move, you know, like to a different town or something. And I did hear stories later about, uh, you know, it wasn't about the mess hall and the how to do the laun- how they did the laundry and the lack of privacy in the bathrooms and things like that, uh, the dust that was always present. But it wasn't, uh, spoken of as a real negative kind of an experience. It was just something that had to be endured. Um, the term I'm sure everybody uses is shitaka ga nai, you know, 'can't be helped'. Um, the internment, you know, there was a war going on. They were required by the government to, to relocate inland. And, uh, they did you as, but wi- without protest. Uh, they didn't particularly like it, but they didn't rebel against it. AT: 00:12:01 And so, um, so as you were growing up, um, as a child in Chicago it was something that you were always aware of? NK: 00:12:12 Oh yeah. Yeah, always aware of. That, uh, and the talk among the, at least the adults, the older generation, my grandparents' and my parents' generation, you know, the first question is 'what camp were you at' and you know, this kind of thing. And if they were from the same camp, you know, the question, the next question, 'what block were you from in the camp', and, uh, you know, 'who did you know in the camp, you know, that we know' that kind of thing. Um, but I don't know if I just answered your question. AT: 00:12:51 Did you ever do that? As you said, that was generally the older folks. Did you ever find yourself doing that? NK: 00:12:56 Well, yeah. Um, it's, in my generation, uh, at least the older, the people that were born before the war ended, they were all from camp. So, you know, the question was, oh, 'where, where were you from,' you know, we'd say Tule Lake or Minidoka or Jerome or wherever, whatever camp. Um, in 1940, uh, after '45, uh, the people, the Japanese, younger people were all born here, so they were all from Chicago. So there wasn't anybody else from any other town that you know, because they, they were all here. And then as I was growing up, a lot of those, my young Japanese friends, their families moved back from Chicago to the west coast. Where, after they worked a little bit and got some money and things were a little bit more settled, in, on the west coast and they moved. So I lost quite a few friends who moved back to the west coast to, either to California or to Washington state. AT: 00:14:09 What age range would you say that happened around like, how old were you when, this time? NK: 00:14:16 Um, that was starting in the late 1950s to, for a period of about 10 to 15 years. AT: 00:14:27 Um... NK: 00:14:28 And that after that time, people be, got, their families became more settled and it was harder for them to, uh, relocate because their children were in school, their jobs were established, their homes were, you know, they already purchased homes since it was just more difficult to move. AT: 00:14:49 Um, so going back to the three-flat that your grandfather had purchased... NK: 00:14:52 Yes. AT: 00:15:00 Can you, can you tell me what, what you do you remember about it? NK: 00:15:05 Yeah, uh, my grandparents lived in the, on the first floor. My uncles lived, one of my uncles lived in the basement. I can't remember everything about it. I remember it was, uh, in an area that was rapidly changing racially, it, before it was a Jewish area. And most of the Jewish people had left, but there was still one on the corner, a block away. There was a kosher, um, market where they sold live chickens. And I remember my grandmother used to go in there and, to get the chickens. And whenever I went with her, I thought it was the worst smelling place I ever was in. It was, smelled horrible. What, I remember that, I remember the smell of that. Um, I remember in the backyard, um, there was a telephone wire or electric wire going across the yard. And apparently there was a squirrel up there who fell and it fell down and, and hit the sidewalk. And, uh, I looked at this dead squirrel and first off, for some reason, I can't forget that dead squirrel. I was, I was kind of shocked, uh, and that's the first time I think I ever saw anything dead. Um, my grandmother was quite a, since she worked in the meat market too, the sight of blood or anything didn't bother her, so she picked up the dead rat and opened her, got, uh, put it in the garbage. Uh, there were rats in the neighborhood. And so she set out rat traps and, and to her, removing the dead rats out of that rat trap was no big deal for her or, you know, to me, I was aghast. I, you know, I the thought of touching a dead animal was [laughs] uh, really scary to me. AT: 00:17:16 Um, do you know what kind of work, um, your family members started picking up once they were here? Your grandparents and... NK: 00:17:24 Yeah, my, uh, grandfather quickly decided that he would buy a, or buy and run a apartment building. So after a couple years, um, he must have had enough money. So he bought a fairly large apartment building on, um, Chicago Avenue and Ada Street, um, that's close to Ashland. And, uh, it was a three-story building, uh, over a set of sho- uh, stores. So all together, I guess it was a four-story building and he, there was many, many apartments in there. Most of the apartments were single fam- or a single room kind of apartments, almost like a rooming house, except there was no kit- no central kitchen or anything like that. And he, uh, operated that. So he, he was the janitor and did, did all the repairs. Um, and he made a living out of that. He loaned, I guess, my father some money so that my father could buy an apartment building on the south, South Side. So, um, my family moved into an apartment building that he bought on 63rd and Kenwood Avenue in the Woodlawn area. AT: 00:19:01 And did your dad have any additional work or was it just? NK: 00:19:04 Yeah, my father, that was a much smaller building. Um, but it was still an apartment building. Um, and it was single fan- a single room occupancy kind-of-a-place. Um, so he, he ran that with my mother. And in addition to that, he worked, he had a job first at a, I guess a bookbinding company. And he used to bring home some scrap papers and stuff and make tablets and stuff, uh, from that. But I guess the, the chemicals that they used, especially the glues and stuff for bookbinding were quite toxic, and he couldn't take that too well. His health was, was not good from that. He, uh, worked for a while in a place that made screws. I guess that was quite a physical job and as a laborer, uh, he had to carry big, heavy boxes of the screws and nails and things. And, uh, that again was physically pretty challenging for him. So he couldn't work anymore there. So he spent the next decade or so just uh, working in the apartment building. And he would go over to my grandmother's place and help her with her building too and doing some of the renovations. And, then when people moved out and... AT: 00:20:48 Would you happen to know the names of these companies, the...? NK: 00:20:51 No, no. AT: 00:20:53 And, so the first building that your, the three-flat, um, you were there only for a couple of years? NK: 00:21:05 Yes. AT: 00:21:06 Before moving into this? NK: 00:21:07 He and my, yeah, my grandfather sold it and you know, the pre- proceeds from that plus some of the savings went to buy for the purchase of the apartment building on Chicago Avenue. AT: 00:21:19 And um, as far as uh, your own friends and social world as a child, did you have any cousins in that flat, your uncles, or? NK: 00:21:35 Um, yeah. My, my uncles were a little- my mother was the oldest one, so she had the children of, you know, her siblings first. The cousins that were in Chicago were all much younger. The youngest, the oldest of the cousins that were in Chicago were uh, like eight years younger than, than me. Uh, so they weren't really childhood kind of playing cousins, but we, we saw them frequently, you know, especially during the holidays and things. AT: 00:22:14 And then what about, um, schools. And were you? NK: 00:22:19 Um, I started grade school at a place called, a school called the, uh, Wadsworth School on 64th and University and went there for one year- to kindergarten there. And then they found out that we were in, uh, on the wrong side of 63rd Street. And they said we need to go to another school. The [inaudible] School, which was actually further away, it was like three blocks further away, but I had, we had to go there, so I had to walk, we had, it was like eight blocks that we had to walk to school, but that's what we did. So that, I do, I want to [inaudible] School and graduated from there in 1957. AT: 00:23:07 And um, did, were there other, um, Japanese American families in that area [inaudible]? NK: 00:23:18 Yes. Uh, there were, there weren't as many as there were further north in the Kenwood, uh, Oakwood, Oakdale kind of area. But I did have a few friends, Japanese friends. There were two boys. Uh, they were old slightly, like a year older than me. Um, Wayne Fujiwara and Alan Nishimura. And we played together and in grade school, spent our, uh, especially with Alan Nishimura, we used to hang out every day and go out to Jackson Park and explore the Museum of Science and Industry and wo- uh, Jackson Park, Wooded Island, and well kind of did our own little adventure things like Huckleberry Finn and stuff and we had a good time. Let's see. There was Donna Ogura. I don't know if, she's uh, she's still around, she's, part of the active- part of the Japanese community here. I remember her, going to her house and, uh, not really playing with her, but, no, I used to like to go to their house because it's a, their father, Joyce and Donna's father, was a renowned, Sumei artist and he used to draw- paint and, uh, I used to o look at his paintings and like to watch him do it. And I thought I was just fascinating. AT: 00:24:54 Mm. And um, so how long was your family in the area? NK: 00:25:05 The, uh, the that area was very tough area. We were the only, um, Japanese that were still in that area. Now the Fujiwaras and the Nishimuras, they moved sev- a few years earlier. So we were the only Japanese in our whole, you know, couple-block area. Uh, in fact we were the only non-black people in that area. So it was getting kind of dangerous. Growing up in that area, it was not bad, even though it was all black, it was safe and we could play out late after dark and there was no, no worries. Drugs weren't around at that time. And, uh, when we graduated high sch- when I grad- I went to high school, the area started really getting bad and drugs started coming around and my father decided that we need to move. So we moved to the Uptown area. Or at least he bought another building in the Uptown area. And our family kind, of over a period of a year, moved from the South Side to the North Side. AT: 00:26:16 And which high school did you go to? NK: 00:26:18 I went to Hyde Park High School and graduated from there. Same with my oldest sister. My younger sister went to Hyde Park, to Hyde Park for two years and then we moved up north and she went to Sen High School. AT: 00:26:34 And um, besides school, did you do any other extracurricular activities or did you, was your family involved in temples or churches? NK: 00:26:46 We, when, in our earlier childhood, um, the church we went to was the Woodlawn Baptist Church, uh, which was on 62nd and University. And the reason, uh, we went there even though my family was Buddhist, um, my father didn't have a car, there was no car in the family, so we had to take public transportation. This church was only about three blocks away from where our home, home was. And, uh, my parents felt that going to any kind of a church was better than going to no church. In 1954 when I was 11, 10 or 11 years old, uh, he bought his first car and at that point then, um, our area that we could go to was much more expanded. And we went to the Buddhist Temple- it was called Chicago Buddhist Church, which is BTC right now on 55th and Dorchester. AT: 00:27:50 Can you tell me about your memories of those earlier years at um, when it was Chicago Buddhist Church? NK: 00:27:57 It was, um, that was good time. Um, the, there were a lot of members there and there were a lot of young people. We, the Sunday school was huge. Um, there must've been 75 to a hundred kids there. And when there's that many kids there, uh, it's almost like play time. You know, you went to Sunday school, there were classes and you look forward to when classes were over so you can play with your friends. So I developed quite a number of friends there at, uh, at the church. Uh, I was there about a year when, uh, I was kind of invited or asked to join the Boy Scout troop there. So when I was 11, um, maybe 11 and a half or so, I joined the Boy Scout troop and became very active with them and I was active with the Boy Scout troop for many years and continued to be active as a, as a adult leader with that troop. AT: 00:29:14 And so that was out of BTC? NK: 00:29:14 Yes. So even when the Buddhist Church, uh, moved to the North Side, the troop and all the activities moved up there too, so. In the earlier- they moved in 1957, so for many years, I was taking the "L" from the South Side to the North Side to participate in the church activities, including the Scouts. AT: 00:29:47 When it was still in Hyde Park, um, can you describe kind of a typical day with services and things you did? NK: 00:30:00 Um... AT: 00:30:02 Or what, what the, you know, a day of church activities, what did that look like? NK: 00:30:10 Um, the um...gosh, this is where my memories kind of fade... AT: 00:30:13 Well, this is a long time ago. It was a very specific question. NK: 00:30:15 Yeah, it was a long time ago. They had the, the basically the same kind of rituals that they have now and the ministers come out in their, in their garb, you know, their Buddhist robes and things and uh, there was chanting, there was singing of, uh, like Sunday school songs. There was a, because the church was so large, membership was so large, they had a Sunday school service that was different than the adult service. So these, the songs that they sang were more children's kind of Christian- uh not Christian- Buddhist songs. After maybe 20 minutes or so of the chanting and the minister's message, then we'd all divide up into our separate little Sunday school classes. And there must have been oh, at least a half a dozen different groups depending on the age. And um, that was a whole thing. Lasted about an hour and then you know, then it was play time after that, while the adults had their service. AT: 00:31:41 Was there a, a Japanese school out of BTC? NK: 00:31:43 Yes, that was a Japanese language school was on Saturdays and there, when I was going there, um, there must have been about 30 or 40 students there and, um, I did not like to go to language school there. AT: 00:32:11 I've never heard that [laughs]. NK: 00:32:13 Um, I, I hated it actually. I couldn't wait for it to be over. For one thing, I never did my homework and whenever we were then called on to answer any questions I [laughs] I couldn't do it. And because I couldn't do it very well, you know, it made me feel bad and made me not want to go. So I went for a couple of years. Uh, I think I set my mind to not learn even though, you know, not just sit there but by osmosis and let it sink in. I resisted learning it 'cause I, I thought it was, you know, why would I ever need to speak Japanese, you know? AT: 00:32:57 Did you speak Japanese at home? NK: 00:32:59 No, but I understood it. When we were growing up, I guess my parents, until we got into grade school, my parents spoke only Japanese so that we would somehow learn the language. But because I was a resistant child, I refused to learn how, but I did know enough Japanese to be able to understand what they were saying. And I think I still can, when people talk Japanese, I have vocabulary stored somewhere, where I know what they were saying. At least I knew when they were talking about me. So, and uh, my grandmother spoke mostly Japanese. Uh, so she would talk to me in Japanese and I would answer her in English. Her, she knew enough English to, to understand. Her understanding of English was much better than my understanding of Japanese. AT: 00:33:59 And um, that was actually something I wanted to ask you about is your relationship with your grandparents, um, as you were growing up. And again, to clarify this was, it was only your mother's parents who were in Chicago? NK: 00:34:16 Right, my father's parents, they left Jap- uh, they left the United States to go back to Japan when my father was only like five or six years old and he was raised in Japan and he came back as a young teenager. And so my grandparents stayed in Japan, so I never knew my, my father's parents. AT: 00:34:43 Do you know where they were in Japan? NK: 00:34:46 They were in Hiroshima. AT: 00:34:48 And so they were there duri- throughout the war? NK: 00:34:51 Uh, yes, my grandfather I think must have died before World War II and my grandmother, she died in the early 1960s or maybe late 1950s. And, uh, I have seen many pictures of her. I should say that I do have a sister in Japan. She's not my biological sister. She's my, she's an adopted sister. She's my biological first cousin. Um, my father adopted her in the late 1960s. Or actually, my father adopted her as a teenager so she could take care of my grandmother who got, who suffered a stroke over there and um in her last few years she needed someone to take care of her. So my, my first cousin Masako agreed to, to take care of her and in return, she would inherit the family farm. And because my father was the oldest son, in fact, he was the only son that was left, and he had no intention of going back to Japan, somebody had to run the farm and carry on the Kanemoto name in Japan. So she, she changed her name to Kanemoto and became my sister and she still lives in that same house. AT: 00:36:31 And so as far as, um, during the war, di- was any of your father's family, like immediate family, did anyone else go to camp? Or was NK: 00:36:47 Ah, yes. Um, my father had a brother, Kozo, who was, who went to camp. He was a few years younger than my father. He's my uncle Kozo, he's still alive. Um, there were, my father had, uh, was one of five siblings. Four of them were born in the United States. One was born in Japan. Uh, there was a brother that was born in Chica- in United States who was, who never came to Chi- um, back to the United States after, before the war. He was actually drafted into the Japanese army and was killed in the Philippines during the battles there, um, of World War II. So, he was a war casualty. Um, my uncle Kozo interestingly, was in the United States army. He, he wasn't drafted. He wasn't quite old enough to serve, uh, to be drafted, but right after the war he joined the army and was sent to Japan to be part of the occupation forces there. So of my two uncles, I thought it was interesting that one was in the Japanese army and one was in the American army. AT: 00:38:30 Um, and, um, so growing up in Chicago, it sounds like you were pretty familiar with and immersed in the, in Japanese American community here. NK: 00:38:48 Yes. AT: 00:38:49 Um, how would you describe, um, well actually I'm gonna wait to ask that question, but, um, so to, to go back, um, a little bit, you're on the South Side and going to school and in BTC and Sunday school and then, uh, in '50...in '57 you moved Uptown. NK: 00:39:28 Actually, I moved in, um, 1962, my sisters moved in '61. I stayed on the South Side with my father, uh, who- he was- still had the building on the South Side that someone needed to be there. So he was there and I stayed with him too because he shouldn't be there by himself. I was a freshman in college, so I, was no big deal for me to, to live down there. And the following year then uh, he sold the building and we move- we all moved up uh, we moved up to that building that he had purchased on Leland Avenue in Uptown. AT: 00:40:14 I see. Um, and where, where did you go to college? NK: 00:40:20 That's, that's an interesting story there. AT: 00:40:24 When you were a freshman? NK: 00:40:24 I was, I was not a good student academically. I was a rebel. I, I resisted authority- my father's authority, school's authority. I wasn't, I wasn't a troublemaker, but I was just a passive-aggressive 'leave me alone, I don't want to do it' kind of a kid. And I got into college at University of Illinois at Navy Pier and um, I didn't do too well. I was taking a number of courses that I, I didn't like and I didn't make the grade. So I, I flunked out after one year. Uh, I went to a city college, here in Chicago- Luke College, which is now called Harold Washington. And, uh, started taking classes there and took a biology course that I absolutely loved. I just thought that was the greatest course. I just loved biology and I had a good teacher, uh, who encouraged me to continue with biology. Now that Luke College was just a brand new school, had just opened and they didn't have any courses beyond the basic biology. So he encouraged me to go to Wright College, which I did, and took more biology courses. And, low and behold, I all of a sudden my grades went from a 'D' to a 'A' and 'B'. Um, and this instructor's name was Frank Schuble. Uh, just kept encouraging me all along, you know, that I should look into that as a career. So I went to a school in Iowa and continued with my biology, which I continued to love and got good grades and got into graduate school at the University of South Dakota and got a master's degree in the biological sciences there. And all during this time I was in college there, this Frank Schuble was very encouraging. He, I don't know why he liked me so much. I just loved that man. He said, if you, when you finish graduate school, if you're looking for a teaching job, come, come and look me up. So I, when I graduated, uh, first, uh, I didn't, I didn't know what I was going to do. I was told by the draft board that don't go to any more school after, after I finished my master's degree 'cause there were, I was going to be drafted, so don't even think about a PhD. And I got my draft notice and I flunked my physical so I didn't have to go into the army. So I called up Frank Schuble my instructor and said, I just finished, you know, my, my graduate degree. And he said, why don't you come and teach here? So I did. I taught at the, uh, at this Luke College. Um, I taught there for eight years and during that time I got married and my wife worked for the government and she had a fairly high level job and she got a tremendous job offer in Philadelphia. So we had to, I had to make a decision to continue with my teaching, which I liked or do I go with her career. Um, so we moved to Philadelphia and, and uh, I had a hard time finding a job there. And after a year of doing, just kind of job hunting, I, uh, uh, did couple of jobs for a couple years and then decided to go to school to become an occupational therapist. And that's what I did. I went to Thomas Jefferson University and got a master of OT. AT: 00:44:42 How long were you in Philadelphia? NK: 00:44:44 A total of about eight years. AT: 00:44:47 And then did you return to Chicago? NK: 00:44:49 Well, I, after I graduated, um, my marriage didn't work out, so I got divorced in Philadelphia. I continued to work in Philadelphia for two years at a hospital as a occupational therapist. My goal as therapist was to become a hand therapist specializing in people with hand injuries. So I did a extra kind of, in my schooling, an ex- stayed on an extra semester to almost do like an internship kind of a thing, an advanced study in hand therapy at this place called the Philadelphia Hand Center, which is kind of a nationally renowned place. And uh, after that I moved back to Chicago and became a hand therapist in, at the University of Illinois Hospital. And did a combination of therapy plus a little bit of teaching there at the university. AT: 00:45:47 And what year was that that you were returned? NK: 00:45:49 1970...no, I'm sorry, 1987. AT: 00:45:59 When you came back to Chicago, um, where did you move to in the city? NK: 00:46:09 Uh, at first I moved back into my parent's apartment building, the same one on Leland Avenue that he moved up to from the South Side. AT: 00:46:19 So they, they still had that? NK: 00:46:21 Yeah, they still had that. Um, my grandmother lived in that building too after she got too old and sold the building. She lived in one of the apartments there also. AT: 00:46:33 And, um, so that, that must not have been far from BTC's new location. NK: 00:46:47 Correct. That was, um, about, uh, three blocks away, three maybe four blocks away. So it was easy walking distance right down the street. It's on the same street, Leland Avenue, yeah. AT: 00:46:59 And so your, your family, had they continued attending? NK: 00:47:03 Yes. My father was active in, with the temple all the way through, all the way until, for the rest of his life. And by default, I being the son, had to also be connected. So anything that was going on with church, I had to go and help and work on things. I was not and still I'm not a religious person, but I go to ser- I go to occasional services and I consider myself Buddhist, but not, not a strong one. I'm only there because of family culture kind of things[inaudible] AT: 00:47:50 Um, do you have any questions that you wanna? Interviewer 2: 00:47:57 I do have a few if that's okay, just a few. NK: 00:48:00 Sure, I'd be glad to. I2: 00:48:02 After listening, just having some questions come up for me. So, um, and also feel free if you don't feel comfortable answering them or you just would prefer not to. Uh, but talking about, you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation about your brother's pass- your brother passing away in camp um, I'm wondering if you knew, we learned a lot about how all of these camps had really inadequate medical facilities. Um, so did his death, I don't know if, you know, have anything to do with what was available onsite at, at camp. NK: 00:48:37 From what I understand, he had, um, developed like a measles. I2: 00:48:45 Okay. NK: 00:48:45 And, uh, that was not diagnosed because of the, I guess, the poor medication, the poor diagnostic techniques that they had there. So they didn't treat him for that. And from that it developed the, uh, he developed an infection which then spread to his circulatory system and developed what they call sepsis, blood poisoning. So if he were in a regular, uh, good-type of hospital, not in a camp infirmary, um, he might've been diagnosed and properly treated, but he wasn't in. So he passed from that. I2: 00:49:30 He was, was it nine years old? NK: 00:49:33 He was, no, he was six years old when he died. I was one year old. So if he would've just had his 80th birthday, if he were still alive. AT: 00:49:46 Did your parents or your family have any kind of bitterness about that? NK: 00:49:52 Uh, no, not really bitterness, but I remember growing up every year on the day he died, my mother would cry. My, my mother was a very strong person and I hardly ever saw her cry except for that, that anniversary of his death. I2: 00:50:22 How do you think that your brother's passing maybe affected you growing up? Obviously it impacted your mom. NK: 00:50:30 Well, um, I think that had my, had Bobby lived, he would have taken some of the pressure off of me because when he died, after he died, I became the, the son and the- my father was a very typical Japan-type Japanese person. Uh, he was very strict. He was kind of raised in a militaristic type of, uh, environment. Um, he expected the oldest son to carry on in the same traditions, uh, that you know, that all good Japanese men should be- like little soldiers, um, that, 'gaman' was all important. You never showed any sign of weakness or fear or anything. And if we ever cried, oh, that was the worst sign of weakness. So we would have to, I would have to stand at attention and try to stifle my crying when he disciplined me. Um, I think that would have not occurred so much had my older brother been around. And because I was academically, my grades were not good, he would always get on me for, for performing better, you know, um, which then I passively resist- you know, passive aggressive. I resisted and, uh, suffered the con- more tirades from him. So as, growing up, I, I very much disliked my father and only after I, uh, got into college and afterwards did I really began to like the guy [laughs]. I2: 00:52:30 Um, I'm also wondering that, um, just growing up, did you ever struggle to come to terms with your identity as a Japanese American? NK: 00:52:42 Not really struggle but growing up, uh, there were quite a few taunts, um, from classmates and uh, not particularly because I was Japanese, but because I was Asian, I used to get a lot of this 'Ching Chong Chinaman, you know, sitting on the fence trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents', uh, that kind of thing. And you know, the kids would always, you know [pulls at eyes to create slant-eyed look] do that kind of thing. Um, at least, until I got into high school, you know, it, it's funny 'cause the kids that were taunting me were, were blacks and uh, you know, maybe because they were black and they had a chance to pick on another race. There were, there weren't very many Caucasians in the grade school. I went to I think, uh, in my class, graduating class of like 60, there were like eight Caucasians and like four Asians. Most of my daily childhood-type friends. The- one was a Caucasian one was a black person, and we'd hang out after school. We'd play on the playground and do things. But, uh, there were no other Japanese in the, in my school. Uh, there were, I guess there was two girls that were like five or six grades below me. They were, while I was in the eighth grade, they were like in the third grade or something like that. So not playmates or anything like that. There was one other Chinese guy in my class. Um, and uh, we, we became friends and, uh, he joined our Boy Scout troop and I knew him all the way through high school. So we went all the way through grade school and high school together and he, he was a brain and I was the dummy [laughs]. I2: 00:54:49 Um, can I ask, uh, do you remember like the redress process that was underway, kind of following? NK: 00:54:58 Yeah, I, I do. Um, I wasn't involved in that process. My cousin was. Her name is, uh, Mary Omari. Now she's Mary Sampson. But, uh, she was very active in that redress process and used to help and serve on committees and do all that kind of thing. Um, I followed it, but I was never [active in, I considered politically kind of an active person] or my cousin was, so she did that and I'm kinda thankful I got the, I got the redress money and she didn't because she was born after, but she, she felt strongly about it enough to be involved in that process. AT: 00:55:51 Were your parents alive during the movement? NK: 00:55:56 Yes. My father died, um, in 2000, the year 2000. My mother died in 2001. So they were both, uh, elderly. My father was 90, and my father, my mother was 89 when she died. I2: 00:56:16 What did they think of the redress movement? NK: 00:56:16 Oh, they were, I think they were appreciative, um, of the, you know, the finally getting acknowledgement that, uh, that, uh, a wrong has been kinda righted. But because they were, I don't feel that they were really bitter about the ex- war experience, um, they really didn't talk too much about it. They, I think they like me kind of looked at that redress money as extra spending money rather than, you know, payback for a crime that- or a wrongdoing that was imposed on them, so. AT: 00:57:01 Did you ever learn about, um, internment in, in school or anywhere in your education? NK: 00:57:09 No, not in, not in a formal education, but we've always known about it because of, you know, the talk, you know, that, um, there was always, you know, in conversations reference to 'camp this, camp that,' and I didn't, uh, take the camp, the meaning of camp to be a, like a prison, but more as a, just a, almost like a- not summer vacation place, but a kind of a temporary stage in their period of, and in their life that they had to go through. But it wasn't a horrible experience for them, so. Oh, I want to say one thing. Um, growing up, uh, the Japanese community in Chicago, especially during the 50s, um, from my earliest memories until maybe 1965 or so, the Japanese community I feel was much more cohesive than it is now. They had a lot of be- I guess because the Japanese were all, shared the same experience coming from the camps. Uh, and they were starting a new life here. They tended, many ethnic groups, when they come, they tend to, uh, come together. And there were, there were a lot of community-type events, uh, either church events at specific churches or even community kind of things like the J-, the predecessor of the JASC, which was the Resettlers Committee, uh, every year they had a big picnic and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds- we're talking large number of people- would all get together and have a big picnic in one of the parks during the summertime. Um, there would be other groups, um, like my father belonged to a group called the Hiroshima Kenjinkai, and there were, are the Kenjinkai are groups the, the Ken is the, is like a state in Japan where a lot of them would come from the same area, Hiroshima, would all get together and they would have a Hiroshima picnic. There would be like Kyushu kind of a picnic with uh, and I think that group kind of still is, uh, they still get together about once a year or so. But there were a lot of, these picnic kind of things, community organizations, social groups, the clubs. The young people form these clubs. Um, the boys, usually for basketball, the girls had more social kind of clubs, but they did sports things too. So, some of the older people, the Japanese you- that are a little older than me, they associate with groups, uh, these clubs. And I can't remember the names of too many of them, but, um, like there were the Row Babes, the Bruins, the Vikings and we were part of a group called the Saxons and we still get together and my poker buddies are, are all former Sa- are all part of the Saxons group. But, um, that, those kinds of things fell apart or stopped happening after about the 1970s or so. That, uh, there aren't any of these Japanese social groups like there used to be. And I think that's kind of sad. I missed that. Every now and then, um, Tonko Doi has, um, a reunion for the, the old social groups. So they still, some people still come and get together. Many of them have moved out of town, but they still come together, get together. Most of these reunions happened in Las, Las Vegas and I want to a couple of them. And it's, it's kinda neat. AT: 01:01:35 Um, around what time were you involved with the social clubs? NK: 01:01:40 When I was in high school, we, uh, formed a basketball team 'cause we were part of that Nisei Athletic Association and so our, our group the Saxons were a team that belonged to that group. And most of the social clubs were part of that Nisei Athletic League. AT: 01:02:04 Um, in addition to that, how did the um, social clubs sort of operate? NK: 01:02:13 They, uh, well they had their sports things, but um, there were a lot of dances. They would sponsor a dance usually at a church or something like that. And, um, some of these were from the social groups. Some of them were from just the churches, the young people at different churches. So one, one week there would be a dance at BTC. Another, there would be a dance at MBT or Tri-C or CCP or at, uh, Viking Hall. They would have dances and things like that. And they- for several years they had dances and guys would, people would bring records and there would be, they'd turn the lights down. They had, maybe a disco, kind of a lamp, you know, ball, and uh, there'd be dancing, which was, which was fun, you know, as, as we got older, you know, and, uh, interest in dating, you know, when, when we first started the, you know, girls were not part of boys' social life. And then as we got older then, boys became interested in the girls and I suppose the girls got interested in the boys. AT: 01:03:38 Um, can you tell me or explain, um, maybe some of the dynamics or the differences between South Side groups and North Side groups? NK: 01:03:50 Well, um, I don't know too much about the dynamics or differences between the groups, but I know among the, the young men that, um, there was this feeling of like the South Side group, And I'm not sure if they were mostly the Row Babe kind of guys, um, they really disliked the North Side guys. And, uh, I don't think there were any, I mean what they call rumbles or fights or anything like that, but, it's like, it's like the difference between the Sox fans and the Cubs fans, you know, you know, you recognize them but you weren't part of their, their group. And there were the South Side people were mostly around 43rd Street between the 47th and 37th Street, uh, close to the lake. There were a lot of Japanese there. Uh, I think a lot more on the South Side than there is on the North Side. AT: 01:05:05 And in the groups did, um, can you just give me more, more details about kind of how they worked? Like how many people were there? Did people have roles? Or was it just? NK: 01:05:21 I don't know if you'd call it roles, they would see each other a lot because all of those areas- those people on the South Side, just about all of those went to Hyde Park High School. And in the late 1940 and early 1950s, I would guess just by looking at the yearbooks, that at least a quarter of the students in the whole school were Japanese and because they were Japanese then they get to see each other and talk to each other and they always congregated together in the lunch room. Um, that they, they were more cohesive. They form, you know, their, their social rules or interactions were or you know, together or united as opposed to kids that went to different high schools. Like on the North Side, um, they were split into different high schools. Like a number of them went to Waller. A number of them want to Senn. A number of them went to um, what's now Lincoln Park High School. I forgot the name. Waller. Waller High School. Um, or Wells High. There's Wells High School, Waller High School, Senn. So they were, there were, I think less of a cohesiveness among the North Side Japanese students at the, because they just didn't see each others as much. In fact, Karen is um, my wife Karen, she was the only Japanese I think in the whole school, at Amundsen. They just, that part of the North Side didn't have Japanese at that time. AT: 01:07:13 And um, to be in the club, did you have to do anything or? NK: 01:07:20 No, it wasn't, um, it wasn't a formal club, but it was rather a grouping. I think some of the older clubs, especially the older girl clubs, uh, they did have regular rules and they, I think they even had, um, they wore the same sweaters with the same, you know, uh, initials on them or whatever. They, they, they dressed to- oh, alike. AT: 01:07:48 So the Saxons didn't have any- NK: 01:07:50 No, no. We never had any t-shirts or anything like that. We, but uh, or just the basketball jerseys are the only thing that had our had our name on them. In fact, I think we were so poor that we didn't, we just had the same color jersey instead, instead of having our initials. Like MBT had 'MBT' printed tee- jerseys. We didn't have a printed jersey. But, um, it was always a rivalry among those different sports groups and, um, most of the time it was friendly, a friendly rivalry and some of the situat- some of the teams had a real physical dislike for each other and they actually got into fights and things like that. But nothing that I ever was involved in or witnessed. AT: 01:08:51 If you had to describe the, um, the Japanese American community kind of, of that time and from that resettlement period, let's say until mid-50s, um, maybe late-50s, how would you describe what the community was like then? NK: 01:09:17 It was um, kind of a multigenerational. The, the leaders of the community were mostly the Isseis, the older generation. And uh, I would say, well thinking it from a kid point of view, where I was, the Issei generation were all old people, really old people. But, uh, when I think back on it, like I always recognize my father as a, probably a member of this, you know, leadership of the Is- and among the Isseis. He died at age 58, which is young. But I always, thought he had gray hair, I always thought he was an old, old man. Um, and I used to think of all the Isseis as old people. Um, the, uh, the Niseis, the next generation, and there was a pretty clear divide between the Isseis and the Niseis as far as appearance and you know, distinct generations as opposed to blending kind of a thing. The, the Niseis were the uh, the people in the community who did a lot, most of the work, the, even though the Isseis where the, were the formal leaders I guess, and then the Sanseis, like me, were just 'the kids', you know, were always 'the kids'. And, you know, gradually over, I see the Iss- the we saw the Isseis dying out and the Niseis is taking over and the Niseis were pretty much, were the leaders of the community in terms of the temples and the activities and organizations and things that, that existed in the Japanese community. AT: 01:11:12 And how you describe the, the community today? NK: 01:11:17 It uh, I would say it's, it's much thinned out, watered down considerably in terms of numbers, in terms of commitment that people have to the community. Um, that, uh, most of the people from my generation have either moved or they're not interested in, in maintaining the cohesive community that, uh, I feel. And I think I've talked to other people too, that they feel like the community as we know it now is not going to exist in 20 or 30 years because, uh, the population is just so spread out. It's so, uh, and interracial marriages. Uh, when that happens, um, the, the Japanese part of the, let's say a marriage, um, if someone is married to another cultural, you know, ethnic group, you know, it's diluted by 50% because you want to include cultural things from, from both sides of the, uh, marriage. Um, and the more intermarriage goes on, the less, um, homogeneality there's going to be, it's gonna be just widespread. There'll be some, but, um, people won't, I feel like people won't embellish their own, you know, if one person might be, even have a Japanese name, but, uh, only one-eighth Japanese, you know, what are you? You know, so I think as a, as a community, if there's going to be, how can you be that cohesive? If there's that much dilution of culture, and language and even the way people physically look. AT: 01:13:46 Um, you mentioned kind of a, a lack of interest as well when you were talking about Sansei. Do you have any ideas about why that might be or what, maybe what's changed? NK: 01:14:07 Um, I'm not sure, like thinking back, all my young Japanese friends at my age, when I was young, you know, were they not, why, why don't they participate? If the Buddhist temple had that many students in their Japanese school, why didn't they continue with their, with that Buddhist tradition of sending their children to the Japanese school or to a Buddhist Sunday school and I don't know. The, uh, and I think that's not only among the Buddhists, but among the Christian Japanese churches as well, that there aren't the younger people to sup- that, support that in that institution and the community. Um, I think it's sad. One of the reasons my daughter stopped going to, the, the Sunday school was Japanese Sunday school was because there were so few other students of her age to, to pal around with. And now there's, you know, all those few that were going to school with her. She, she's not really close friends with any of them. Where, when we were growing up, um, like most of my close friends now were the same close friends that I had back then. I don't know why. I wish it went that way. I wish people would kind of stay together more. But that's the way it is. AT: 01:15:57 What are your, what are your hopes for the future of the Japanese American community in Chicago? NK: 01:16:02 Well, I think the community is really doing, making a strong effort to try to keep the identity of the Japanese community by, um, like the JASC having a natsumatsuri, you know, that kind of a thing. The Buddhists, the churches having their different festivals that, uh, emphasize Japanese culture. I think, I don't know, if something, you know, in hindsight, way back 30, 40 years ago, people thought about these kinds of things and what they could do to retain a strong community while the community was strong. Like as the community gets weaker, you know, it's, I think it's harder to get people back to that point, that, but a lot of people like me want, feel like, should be, you know, go back to the good old days kind of thing. AT: 01:17:17 So we have um, just a little bit more time for a couple of more questions. NK: 01:17:24 Okay. New Speaker: 01:17:25 Um, one thing I wanted to be sure to ask you about was, uh, if you have any memories of any areas in the city, um, when you were growing up that might've been, had some Japanese American businesses or restaurants, or grocery stores. NK: 01:17:48 Um, yeah, I, I the grocery store thing is one that I always remember that on the South Side there were several little local storefront-type Japanese and in fact on the North Side too. That, you know, they would sell rice and tofu and all these, the different Japanese ingredients, you know, like Japan Food Corporation-type products. Um, go- I remember going there and they would have like tofu and uh, not in little plastic packages, but in a great big metal can, you know, like a five gallon can and the proprietor would scoop out a big thing like that and put it in a plastic bag and you'd take the tofu home. And I always thought those were kind of neat places. Thinking back on it then. AT: 01:18:50 Do you remember where they were located or what they were called? NK: 01:18:53 There were some like the Franklin Food Market was on 53rd Street. I can't remember the names of some of the others on the South Side, but on North Side there would be like the Diamond...I think Togari had a market there. I forgot the, if they called it Togari Market or not. But uh, the Star Market was always the big one. Star Market was probably the last one that existed in Chicago before, you know, and that closed I think over 10 years ago, but uh, that would be a place, you know, that people can go to for their, for their Japanese foods. Now they, it's all at Mitsuwa, or that other one in Arlington Heights, uh, Tensuke, yeah. AT: 01:19:42 Um, did you ever see or experience the Clark and Division area? NK: 01:19:50 My, my mother, was, um, used to work for the Resettlers Committee and uh, she was in their office there. She worked there for many years and under the director who was, uh, Mr. Nakane. Um, and from there they moved up to the Viking Hall upon Sheffield. And, um, but I remember that Clark and Division only because I used to go there to go to my mother's workplace. And at that time, um, they had, they provided a lot of different social services. They had like a, it was a place for people to get jobs or to find job listings there. In fact, she, my mother got me a lot of summer jobs because people would call the service committee to say they were looking for, you know, part time help for the, especially young men or young people for summer jobs. So I got a job working at LaSalle Photo through referral through the service committee. Um, they, they used to have more, I think a lot of social services. They used to have clubs and things for war brides and things. So during that, during that time, so they did a lot of things for the community. And uh, some of those things still carry on. AT: 01:21:31 And so, as you know, one thing that we're interested in in this project is, um, to get a better sense of resettlement in Chicago. Um, as someone who kind of grew up in this, you know, big migration and change and experience, um, how, how would you kind of describe the experience of resettlement if you're talking very generally and kind of, you know what were some of the defining factors of the resettlement experience to Chicago? NK: 01:22:14 Hm. Gee. I always thought that my experiences growing up were not that much different than other, my other friends, you know, the non-Japanese friends. You know, I used to go to their houses and eat the same kind of food. The only, our food was a little different 'cause we had more rice in our diet and more this, Japanese kind of foods. But I don't think my experience was, I, I would say overall I had a positive experience growing up that, uh, being Japanese, if anything was more of a positive, you know, in terms of, uh, then negative. Um, people just assume that, this is very stereotypical so I'm feeling funny saying it, um, that Japanese are considered to be hard workers and I think they are, you know, they're, they're quite honest basically and, uh, smart and the uh, academically smart. And I always kind of took advantage of that because people assumed I was smarter than I thought, than I was. So yeah, I say, yeah, yeah, I'm smart because I was born that way. And that I knew judo, you know, that martial arts was in my blood and in my DNA and I could just, you know, do a karate chop and knock your head off. Even though I've never taken a karate class in my life, they just assumed that. And uh, so there's positive stereotypes about the community that, um, that I think are good. Uh, and luckily for the generations before me, there were very few negatives, about negative stereotypes. So I consider I was lucky to be born the race I am, you know, being Japanese. AT: 01:24:24 I guess to, to rephrase my question, I'm wondering if, like, if you were to describe what resettlement was to someone who had no idea, what are some of the key things you would use to? NK: 01:24:44 Well at that, at that time of resettlement, people who were leaving the, the camps, um, their main thing was 'where am I gonna settle down? Where am I going to be able to find a job?' That was, that was the key thing and that was the reason that so many internees came to Chicago, uh, was, was the economic advantage. Also the fact that there was little discrimination because there were so few Japanese before the war that people didn't have, uh, any kind of preconceived, uh, you know, discrimination kind of a thing. There weren't the, um, like on the west coast there were a lot of Japanese there and you've got a target then for, for, um, racial discrimination that you didn't have here. So I don't know how much and I don't think there was much racial discrimination into the Japanese community and you know, people hear that. So they come to, they come to Chicago and wherever, you know, Detroit, Denver, east coast, wherever. So there were quite a few centers. I know Philadelphia had quite a few Japanese going, going there and like forming JACL chapters and things like that. I2: 01:26:22 Just one more question for you before we end our session. Um, has the internment affected you personally at any, if it has, how has its legacy manifested itself in your own life? NK: 01:26:41 I, I really don't think that it had, uh, an impact on me because you know, it was before I had any memories of, of what camp might have been like. Now, if I had childhood experience and memories of living in those barracks and living under those conditions, it might've. Um, and that's one of the things that, uh, this, like the Kansha project. And two years ago I went out with my wife to take a tour of the different camps and we've been to nine of the 10 internment camps and seeing, you know, what life was like in those and, it was quite appalling to me, uh, the conditions that they had to live in. So if anything now I feel a little bit more, uh, angry about what the, uh, actions of the government were to cause that internment. Uh, and I see a lot of that stuff still happen. So it made me a lot more politically aware of the situation then and what has changed and what has not changed, so. I don't know if that answered your question. AT: 01:28:08 What inspired you to take that trip? NK: 01:28:14 Um, I've been totally aware of, you know, all the camps and things and my father was very active in the community. Um, he, he had a lot of books and things out of the camp. You know my, the, there were, there's always been a lot of these short movies and things about the camp experience that's shown to the, to the, uh, Japanese community. Uh, so I was fully aware of that and I just wanted to find out more about what it was really like. So that, that kind of inspired me to, to do that and I've got one more camp. It's kind of like a bucket list that on the bucket list was visit all 10 camps. And so I got one more. AT: 01:29:13 Which one is that? NK: 01:29:13 Uh, that's, Amache in Colorado, but some of them were very, very well presented. Uh, Jerome, the Jerome Rohwer, there's an interpretive center. Uh, Heart Mountain has a very nice one. Minidoka has a very nice one. Um, uh, Tule uh, Minidoka, let's see...Minidoka. Heart Mountain has a very nice one. Um, and some of them were just placards out there. AT: 01:29:47 Did you try to find where your fam- or where your family was living in Tule Lake? NK: 01:29:53 Um, well it's not, I didn't want to, I didn't go to the, you know, stand on the, on the block that...Had I thought of it, I might've wanted to do it. I wanted just to be at the camp and kind of see, well, which I'm glad I did and if our going back to especially Tule Lake and Minidoka, I would try to find the blocks that my family was kept at. AT: 01:30:29 Well is, are there any final things that you'd like to add or anything that we may have missed? NK: 01:30:36 Uh, no. I think that's it. I don't know if your oral history project is going to include more than just the experiences associated with the, uh, with the, uh, settlement, you know, the resettlement and the camp kind of thing. But if it does, then, you know, I've got more stories to tell. AT: 01:31:09 Well, thank you so much for taking the time today and coming to speak with us. NK: 01:31:13 Oh, you're welcome. It was uh, you, you both made it very enjoyable to, to do this. And I had it sound like I could, like, I knew what I was talking about [laughs]. AT: 01:31:27 Thank you again. I2: 01:31:27 Thank you very much. NK: 01:31:27 Oh, you're welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=KanemotoNeil20171115.xml KanemotoNeil20171115.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kanemoto, Neil (11/15/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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Takada, Anna
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Matsunaga, John Michael
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5.4 10/7/2018 Matsunaga, John Michael (10/7/2017) 0:57:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Matsunaga, John Michael Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/309192129 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/309192129?h=b0ced68f4c" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 This is an interview with John Matsunaga as part of Alphawood Gallery's Chicago resettlement experience oral history project. The oral history project is condu-conducted in line with the current exhibition "Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War Two and the Demise of Civil Liberties." Today is October 7th, 2017 at about 5:45 PM. We're recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. John Matsunaga is being interviewed by Anna Tacada of Alphawood Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just start by stating your name? John Matsunaga: 00:38 I am, uh, John Matsunaga. AT: 00:41 And, um, where are you from? JM: 00:43 I'm from Los Angeles, California. AT: 00:45 That's where you were born? JM: 00:47 That's where I was born, yeah. AT: 00:48 Okay. And how much time did you spend in LA? JM: 00:52 I lived in LA for, or the LA area in Southern California, for about 29 years. And then I moved to the Bay Area and lived in Oakland and Berkeley for a number of years. And then now I live in Minneapolis. AT: 01:13 Um, I guess to start, could you tell me a little bit about, um, your family and maybe how they were impacted by, the war? JM: 01:27 So, I'm a Sansei. I'm a third generation Japanese American. My grandparents, my parents and all of my aunts and uncles were incarcerated, um, during the war, during World War Two. Um, my dad's family, my, my dad's dad, uh, he died before the war in 1940 so he was not incarcerated, but, um, the rest of his family, um, were incarcerated. Uh, they lived in, uh, Sanger, California, which is, uh, just outside of Fresno. And, um, they were farmers and his family went to Gila River in Arizona. And so they lived, uh, in California. The, um, the way that the forced removal occurred was that if you lived west of Highway 99, which was the main highway that cut through north, south, through California at that time, um, if you'll live west, um, when exclusion started, you were guaranteed to be removed from, from the, um, that area. JM: 02:47 Uh, if you lived east, uh, you, it wasn't at, early on during the forced removal, it wasn't clear that you were going to be removed, but so they were, they, um, didn't have to actually go to, uh, a temporary detention center or an "assembly", um, center as a result of living east of Highway 99. And so, um, my father has kind of an interesting, I just learned this in talking to him that um, there was a, uh, uh, temporary detention center in Fresno. Um, but because they lived east of highway 99, they didn't have to go there, but they visited there, seeing people who live west of the highway that were incar- So it is this odd thing of being incarcerated in that camp. And then just because of where you lived. And then on the other side, there were free Japanese Americans still at that time who could go and were appearing through the fence or seeing people that they knew and things like that. So that was just sort of an odd little story that he told me recounting, you know, early on in his experience. AT: 03:56 So did they do that, did they go...? JM: 03:59 They went and visited and saw, you know, from like the out- just to see what was going on. Because again, you know, no one knew- in hindsight, we know how it plays out and kind of what happens and it starts to make more sense of what exactly happened. But, um, well not the justification for why it happened, but, but the unfolding of history, you can kind of, you know, and hindsight's always clear, but at the time, you know, thinking in their mind and then looking forward, um, you know, they didn't know what was going to happen to them. And so it's this very, and it happened very quickly. So it was just as quick thing of all of a sudden those west of Highway 99, were in this camp. JM: 04:38 And then they didn't know. They really didn't think. I think at that time my dad was telling me, they didn't think that they were going to have to actually move because you know, the orders hadn't come yet. And so they thought maybe they would, they would have escaped this. But um, you know, so it was just sort of an odd, to me it was kind of an odd little story just because you know, this, this idea of military necessity and then of of removing Japanese Americans. And then on the one hand, just because you live on one side of a highway or another, you're either incarcerated or you're free. And so that must have been just sort of both an odd experience of, of being free on the one s- But I, I think that some that you had that same situation inland, um, in, in the camps and in for example, like say Colorado where there was no forced exclusion, but there was a camp there and then so fewer Japanese American living in Colorado, you, you already, you know, before the war, you weren't in camps. JM: 05:39 So you have this like free and incarcerated Japanese Americans in the same area. So it's always an odd kind of thing to me to think about... AT: 05:50 Almost like emphasizes how arbitrary... JM: 05:52 Yeah. And, and how, how that, that the actual threat that Japanese Americans supposedly posed or this idea of military necessity was completely false. Because, you know, just because you're from California and you're in this, in these, incarcerated in prison, in these camps. Um, whereas if you just living in that area where that camp is, you're not really, doesn't make much sense, especially when your Japanese ancestry is the reason why you're being incarcerated. Um, and so, so come coming back to your original question too. So on my mom's side, um, they lived in, um, southern California and um, they went to Santa Anita, so they left. I think they had to leave in April at that time to go to the Santa Anita. And so that was different than my mom, my mom's and my dad's experiences were very different because my, um, my dad never went to a, uh, assembly center and he left in August, whereas my mom's family went, um, into, uh, Santa Anita in April, so several months earlier. Um, and then I think it was in October, that's when they went to Jerome in Arkansas. And so she was young. Both of my parents were relatively young. My Dad was, um, 13 I think when they went, and, and, and my mom was 11 when she went. Um, and I don't have that much of a story about the train. I don't think she remembers that much about the train ride and all that. I mean it's the typical thing of being on the train, pulling the shades down and, and, and that kind of thing. But they were, you know, they were pretty young at the time. Um, she also has an interesting story. She did that-she told me that the first time that she had ever seen an African American person was when she was in camp, at, um, at Jerome in Arkansas. Um, that she hadn't actually in Los Angeles, she'd never seen an African American person before. Um, and she recalls, cause she, her, her barracks was at the end of, edge of the camp and she recalls seeing a man, um, with like a cart with horses pulling it. And she was looking out and he was looking in at the camp and he waved to her and she waved back. And so this is like sort of her first, she had never seen an African American person before until going to Arkansas. And so that was like something that stuck out in her mind, um, about, you know, being there in that experience. AT: 08:59 And, um, to go back to your dad's experience, um, first, uh, what kind of f- do you know what kind of farm you had? JM: 09:12 They, um, I don't know if-if it was at the time, but I know that, um, my memory of the, of the farm was grapes and it, so it may have been grapes at that time too.Um... AT: 09:26 When you say your memory of it, have you visited? JM: 09:31 Oh yeah. It's so the, the, the um, that farm stayed in my family. My uncle Benny actually ran the farm. Um, and uh, because his sons didn't want to take over the farm. Um, they ended up selling it, I think sometime in the 90s, maybe late nineties, that they sold, that they ended up selling the farm, or early two thousands. AT: 09:55 So this is the same farm that your, your dad's family had before the war? JM: 10:01 Yeah. AT: 10:02 And how were they able to...do that? JM: 10:05 Right. So, um, what, what happened. Again, I've, I've tried to kind of get a straight answer on this and it's still a little uncertain, but my understanding is that the, that the, um, the farm was initially in the name of, um, I don't know if it was my uncle or, cause he was, cause he was, he's Nisei, so he's born here. Or if it was a f-, uh, another Japanese American family that was, um, that actually had married into, into, um, their family. So, um, uh, being unclear on that, but, but they did own the farm. And when they had left, um, they're a, uh, local packing fruit packing company. Um, had agreed to work the land and to, you know, split the profits and to keep the farm going. Um, and then when they returned, everything was, they had a place to return to. So when they returned, um, a family friend came first, made-prepped the farm, make sure everything was fine. Um, and then, uh, my dad's family was able to just return to their home. Um, the neighbors watched it, the neighbors and, and this fruit packing company took care of the farm, watched the farm. Um, just kept everything running. And so they were able to keep it. I don't, I don't know if at that point they had owned the farm outright. That is, were they making still, you know, payments on land. I think they might have actually just owned the farm outright, that they didn't have to make any payments or anything like that. AT: 11:50 And do you know when, um, they must, they must've returned after the, the war? JM: 11:57 So, so they, um, my dad's family, they were at Gila river for the entirety, from, so from August, 1942 to January, 1945. So when the exclusion orders ended on January 2nd, 1945, that's, that's when they left. And so they had heard in December that the camps are closing. You can, you know, exclusion from California is lifted and you can either can leave the camp or you can, you know, you can return to California. And so, um, they immediately returned to California and then he, he was in high school still, so he actually enrolled that semester in high school. So it was just like going straight from camp and then just going back to your old life. Um, and I asked my dad, you know, what was the, what was the attitude towards Japanese Americans in that community? And I think because they have lived there so long and that there were a number of different immigrant families and all farmers and in the small community, that the anti-Japanese sentiment, at least in that area of Sanger, where the farm was, was not that great. JM: 13:16 And, and when he went back to um, high school, you know, he, the kids all welcomed him back. He didn't really face any discrimination from any of the Caucasian students or any, anything like that. Um, I think there were, I think the people in that community were s-somewhat sympathetic too, but I think a lot of that has to do with that it-that the, um, that sense of competition in terms of farming, which was great in California, wasn't as strong in that community. And so, they were, all-that sense of community was stronger than the competition, you know, that feel, that sense of competition amongst the different farms, so... AT: 14:00 And how about your, what, you know of your mom's family were...? JM: 14:06 So they, they were at Jerome, and so when Jerome closed, I believe it closed in June of 1944, um, they, instead of leaving camp, they had nowhere to go. So they didn't own land, when they were in Los Angeles, they didn't own land, um, uh, you know, they were tenant farmers and they were broke. They had no, there was nothing to go back to. And so, um, so even though Jerome closed and there was an opportunity to leave, they had nowhere to go. And at that point, exclusion hadn't been lifted, so they couldn't go back to California anyways. You'd have to find somewhere else to go. And so they went, they ended up going to Gila River. So they went to another camp. And so my, my mom's family and my dad's family overlapped at the same camp, um, for a time. So they stayed, trying to remember when they went to, um, she worked farms, but it was after the exclusion orders were lifted, so they didn't leave in January. It must've been, um, sometime later in 1945, it might've been when Gila River closed and I'm not, it's escaping me exactly when that was in 1945. Um, but they, yeah, so they, they stayed there for however many months between, uh, you know, probably wasn't more than a year, the river, but my, my mom's family was in the, so Gila River's broken up into two camps, two parts of it. One is Butte, and one is Canal, and my dad was in Canal Camp and my, um, my mom's family was a Butte Camp, so they never met or knew each other in camp but, but they were at in the same camp, at the same time, yeah. AT: 15:53 And then so Seabrook Farms is the first destination for your mom's family? JM: 15:58 Yeah. So, um, you know, within the camps, um, a number of companies were, were recruiting, you know, hiring Japanese Americans for various forms of work. And so Seabrook farms was looking for people for their agricultural, you know, um, uh, work. And so they lived, they lived in the housing at Seabrook farms too, which was another kind of camp, you know, they had this company housing and these, and these bungalows and stuff like that. So they lived there. And so she went to school in New Jersey because she was still in high school. Um, and um, but they were there, so they must've been there from 1945 to around 1949 or 1950. Cause my, her, her father, my grandfather, died in 1945 and he was, um, Issei, and he was an older Issei, so he was, at that time, he was already in his seventies. Um, so I think he was probably in his fifties when he, he had her. She was, um, you know, in her late teens at that point. Um- AT: 17:12 What did he do when he came to the U.S, do you know? JM: 17:16 Oh, he was a farmer. AT: 17:17 Oh he was a farmer? New Speaker: 17:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was in agriculture as well. My mom tells a story though that, um, that at some point he was very wealthy before the Great Depression, and the Great Depression, bankrupted, like, you know, um, but she was born in 1930 so she wouldn't know of any, you know, she wouldn't have ever had experienced that life at all. Um, but even, even her story of is a little bit vague. She, this, she's just saying, I was told, you know, cause she wasn't born yet. Um, and so, you know, the, the, so the whole family moved there, but then my grandfather died. And then, um, at some point my, I'm trying to, I don't know exactly when my uncle, I, he, um, moved to Chicago and he was the first one. And I actually found a photo of him, um, of one of the war relocation resettlement photographers took his photograph here in Chicago. And, um, it's in, it's in the, um, uh, JARDA, uh, database, the Calisphere. So it's, it's, uh, the University of California. Um, they have like this archive of imagery and documents from, from the war. And, um, so I've typed his name, I just typed her last name cause I was just searching if there was any family members and found, um, a photo of him here. And, and so there was some sort of housing here where there was a Japanese American couple who, um, had boarders, Japanese American boarders. And so he was, he was living in, so there was-there's a photo of them standing outside of the building. Um, him and another man with the couple that, that were boarders. AT: 19:04 Did you happen to know the family's name or the location of the house? JM: 19:08 I don't remember the name. The name is in the documentation for the photograph. The, the location is not, cause I actually thought about that before coming here to Chicago to see if could I find, um, so I don't know exactly, but I do know my mom, um, lived in Lakeview, is that correct? Lakeview area, which was, um, had a significant Japanese American population at one time, I'm not too familiar with the Chicago, um, the history of Japanese Americans in Chicago, but um, and so she, she lived there I think for a year or two or something like that before she left. But, so she must have been here from 19, maybe 1950 or early 1950s to the mid to late 1950s. Cause then she moved to California and lived in Los Angeles. And then that's when she met my father. So my sister was born in 1960 so you know, they were married, um, like 1959. And this is horrible. I don't even know exactly the exact year my parents were married. I think 1959 they were married, 1958. Um, and so, you know, by that time she was already, she had to have been there. So, um, it was, yeah, it was probably like late... AT: 20:31 Would you happen to know, so your uncle Ike moved first, to Chicago... New Speaker: 20:35 Right. AT: 20:35 And then, was it just your sister that followed or were there... New Speaker: 20:35 Oh, you mean my mom? Uh... AT: 20:41 Uh yeah. New Speaker: 20:42 Um, I don't know. I think the whole family just moved, well, he was sort of here. He was kind of like the pioneer. And then, um, once my grandfather had passed away, I think that that's when, when, uh, pretty much all of them, so my, my grandmother moved here and then the rest of the family. AT: 21:04 How many siblings did they have? New Speaker: 21:05 Oh, um, and I'm trying to, and it's, I'm trying to also think of like who was where at that time, cause I'm not sure all of them were, necessarily came out. Um, I think she had eight, sib-eight siblings at the time. So the oldest brother actually went back to Japan. So he had married a woman whose family went back to Japan during the war. And so he went with them and then eventually came back to the United States. But I never, I never even met him. I didn't know him at all. Um, and um, so she was one of two, uh, daughters, sisters, um, and the family. And then the rest, the rest were four sons, you know, boys. Um, yeah so, you know, she went out, my uncle Ike and I would imagine that she had two younger siblings who, who, brothers who went in-out of-god, cause they were still like probably in high school at that time. Um, and I think some of the older siblings went as well, except-with the exception of, um, the, her eldest brother and Naburu who went to, um, went to Japan. AT: 22:25 Would you happen to know, um, what everyone was doing in Chicago? So what Ike was doing for work, and was she's still school-aged or... JM: 22:36 I don't remember what my uncle Ike is doing, but he eventually became a, um, like an engineer. And so I think he's probably doing that by the time he left Chicago, but I don't know, um, like as far as schooling or what he did, what he did here or any of that. Um, she, she went to, um, fashion design school. I can't remember if she went, if she did that here or in New York, but eventually maybe she did some of it in New York and then was here. But I know that she went to the, um, Art Institute for a little bit and she has a story that she dated, uh, I'm forgetting this artist's name now. Oh. Um, it'll come to me, but he's, he's a somewhat well known artist, but it's just sort of an interesting story because she was, I think she was, he was the teacher and she was in his class and she's dating the teacher I think, but uh you might have to cut this part out. [laughter] I don't know if she wants this in the roster. But um, but he was a, he was a, um, well known painter and it's escaped my, his name is escaping me right now. Um, but um, so she, but she took some classes at the Art Institute. Um, and so I think our earliest work was, she was in, um, fashion design and design in general. And, and, um, and I think that work brought her to California. So some-I think part of her, part of her, uh, her education and training was here, um... AT: 24:17 So do you have a sense of how long, um, her family was in Chicago? JM: 24:26 I'm trying to think of- AT: 24:27 -was it all various...? New Speaker: 24:28 when she might've been, she been one of the first, first ones to move to Los Angeles. Um...my uncle Henry went into the army at some point, and so he may have left as w- you know as well, early, earlier on, um, and then, I know another uncle served in Korea, so obviously he would, you know, by the early 1950s, he was, he was away too. Um, but I don't think the rest of the family, like, like my grandmother, I think she may have stayed with my uncle Ike until the late 1960s. And so he moved to Los Angeles area in late 1960s and I think that's when she moved because my earliest memories of her, so I was in 1971. She died in I think 74? It seems kind of early, but I think that's about right. So I do have memories of her, but just very faint memories of her in Los Angeles, you know, so that's, and so I know that, you know, by the early seventies, they were already living in L.A. And I, so I, I suspect that they came out in about, in the late sixties when... AT: 25:49 And um, and where, where did your parents meet? How did they connect? Speaker 2: 25:54 I think they were set up by, by, um, someone, but again, I don't know all the details [laughs] with that, but I think a mutual friend set- set them up and that's, that's how they got together. And also just sort of a, as an aside, um, their, um, I found their wedding portrait, like their, it's um not at their wedding, but just sort of before sitting at Toyo Miyatake's studio, um, took the pho- I don't know that, at that point if he was still photographing, or was it his son? I think Archie may have taken it- taken over at that point. Um, but the stu- but the studio, um, had done that. And so that, there's just sort of that interesting thing of I looked at the thing and it had the stamp of Toyo Miyatake's studio. And, so... AT: 26:49 And, so, can you tell me about, um, your experiences growing up? I mean, were, were your parents open and talking to you about, um- JM: 27:03 -Right- AT: 27:03 -this particular part of their stories or, or w-where is this, this knowledge coming from? JM: 27:08 Right. So, um, when I grew up, I don't even remember when I first learned about the camps. I just know that I knew about them. Um, my parents never talked about it. Um, but I now only re-recently, so I'm 46. So in the past few years, I only recently started talking to my parents about their- asking questions, you know, finding out the details of, of their experience of incarceration. Um, and you know, for them, I kind of asked them, so will you reluctant to talk about it to us? And they said no. They said, you guys never asked. And so it's hard for me to tell because I get a sense that if I had asked them 20 years ago or so, maybe they wouldn't have been so interested in talking about it, they would've been like, oh, whatever, you know, it's in the past, but now that they're in their late eighties, um, I feel like they're much more open and wanting to talk about it. JM: 28:11 I think the environment for talking about it too is much more conducive to expressing, you know, this past. Um, and so now they're, don't talk about it all the time, but, but, um, but yeah, I think a lot of it was, I grew up in the San Fernando Valley in a suburb of Los Angeles called Woodland Hills, which was primarily Caucasian. Uh, it's middle class. Uh, so my Japanese American identity wasn't something that, uh...I was basically growing up in a white suburb. I grew up white b- essentially. Um, and I thought of myself as white until other people started reacting to me in a certain way, coming at me, you know, and then I go, well, okay, that, you know, that was that sense of otherness that, that I began to feel, um, because I'm in my own skin, so I'm not seeing myself as, as any different than anybody else really, until other people treat me differently. And so that was that kind of awakening, but still, even throughout my life, regardless of that, um, I didn't really connect with or explore my Japanese American, um, identity or my family's history for- until relatively recently. AT: 29:31 And, and when did that happen? That experience of other people recognizing you as somehow different or not white? JM: 29:40 Oh, that I mean, elementary school is the first, is the first, um...you know, when you're kids you're always talking about things like that. And if you're just-you're kind of figuring out a little bit of who you are and then who other people are and kids are so blunt right so, you know, um. And so it was always, it was always that thing. And so I don't, I don't know that I have any specific memories, but just in a general sense of, of that, um, of that being othered every now and again, you know, being recognized as, as different, and it wasn't all that. And by the time of high school, no one really, I don't think anybody really made a big deal about it. Um, it was more in like elementary school when you're were really young and, and uh, just having that sense that you're, you're different. Yeah. That you're uh... AT: 30:29 When you were, um, you know, school age, did you learn about internment in school? JM: 30:36 No. It's, uh, the, I don't, I didn't learn in grade school. And you know, in K through 12, no, nothing, even- but this is, this might be more a reflection of the courses I took, but even in college, I did not learn about incarceration of Japanese Americans and, um, I don't know. I can't recall where I learned about it, but I, I knew more and more, but, but it wasn't, it really wasn't until the last few years that I began to study it intensively. Um, and then started to go deep and learn a lot about when it happened in the facts and all that. Um, but I don't, I never had any formal education that taught me about this past at all. Never even mentioned it. AT: 31:31 And can you, uh- JM: 31:33 -and that's growing up and, that's growing up in Los Angeles where there's a significant Japanese American, uh, population as well, so... AT: 31:43 Can you tell me more about, um, your education because you're, you're an Asian American Studies professor? JM: 31:50 Well, I, I, I'm not technically a professor. I do teach Asian American studies. So I'll give you, I'll give you a little bit of my background. AT: 31:56 Sure. JM: 31:57 Um, so I, um, studied anthropology. I was actually an archaeologist for several years. And, um, I studied anthropology at UCLA and, where I got my bachelor's, and then I was in the doctorate program at UC Berkeley, in Anthropology. And, um, even then as an anthropologist studying things like identity and culture and, and whatnot, I still didn't really explore or connect with my Japanese American heritage. Um, and so I was always kind of like studying other people and stuff and, and um, I was working on the archaeology work that I was doing was in Europe, actually in Serbia. So it's like something completely [laughs] outside of anything having to do with Asia or Japanese American... Um, uh, but I found that it was, it was at that time that I was wanting more out of what I was doing and I wasn't very satisfied. Um, and so that's when I, I didn't finish my doctorate. I got all the way to the end of, of my education there, the program, the PHD program, to the point of actually writing my dissertation and all of that. But I did not finish my, my doctorate degree because, um, it wasn't, I knew there was something lacking. There was too much else going on at the time. So this was during, you know, the Bush administration, -the second Bush- administration, all the things that was happening with Muslim Americans and all these kinds of other things. So I'm in Berkeley at this time and it just, you know, I couldn't, the work that I was doing, even though I, I- anthropology deals with culture and identity and other, many other things, I wasn't able to, I'd sort of pigeonholed myself. I put myself or painted myself into a corner where the kind of work I was doing was, I was never going to be able to express or to deal with what was going on in contemporary society. And so I left that and, and, um, started to do art and became an artist. So I went to art school and I went to the Minneapolis College of Art Design, um, after I moved to Minneapolis. And so it was there that all of this started to, to come out. And so what had happened was that I, in doing some work, I was interested in exploring the life of my mom's stepfather, which was the only grandfather that I knew. He's not my biological grandfather. His name was [Sachajo Tanabe?] and, but he was, he was, I always just knew him as Grandpa, you know, I didn't know the difference. It was only later that I knew he was, he was my mom's stepfather and he wa- he lived in Little Tokyo. We're talking about Japanangeles. He lived in Little Tokyo and he was murdered there in 1982 and that devastated me. It, it just had a, such a profound impact on me. And I always thought about him no matter what, you know, not connecting with my Japanese American identity or my family's history, but I, I would frequently think about him and just, it just, you know, that incident haunted me and it still does. Um, but anyways, so when I was becoming an artist, I was thinking about him in, in, you know, making work about him in some ways. And, and part of what, what I was thinking about was my family didn't really talk about him much anymore. You know, he died in 1982, and this is, this is already, you know, the two thousands or, and after. Um, and it was just a sense of him being forgotten and thinking about, you know, what's that memory of him going to be as time goes on. And, you know, and, you know, it really bothered me. So it was the sense of forgetting. And so, um, I started exploring his history and found out that he was incarcerated at Manzanar, um, and then I started thinking about all the people that were there and who they were and them being forgotten. And so instead of doing a project about him, I became interested in, um, the Japanese American incarceration and the people. And so it started with Manzanar, and actually went there and photographed the remains and the remnants of that. And that expanded into a larger project to where I went to all 10 of the war relocation authority, concentration camps, and photographed the remains, a lot of, you know, the physical remains that are still there. But it was really, you know, through him that I, I, I started to explore this history and then there was that. And then along with, um, my, my parents advanced age, so wanting to connect with them more and understand what their lives were like, what they had gone through, brought me back to this incarceration history. And so that started it. And then obviously I was, as I had mentioned, I was already searching for a way to, to engage with and talk about things that are going on in the present. JM: 37:43 And so that, you know, obviously, there's parallels between the Japanese American incarceration and other forms of exclusion or incarceration of, of many different populations, um, within the United States presently, but also within, within the very recent past or, or paralleling that, you know, what had happened to Japanese Americans. And so it was a way for me to engage in those conversations where I wasn't co-opting someone else's history, that it, I, it gave me a voice or a-and allows me to do that. So, you know, now I work with the Japanese American Citizens League and in the Twin Cities and we've begun working with the, uh, Counsel on American Islamic Relations Care, their chapter in Minnesota. Um, but really, you know, it-it-that, so that connection, that connection through history, that and like my, so like my community's involvement with incarceration allows me to then, and my family's history of that, allows me to then engage in with where I see those connections in other communities. But I am very sensitive about, you know, speak, try- you know, not wanting to speak for another community, like having a right to kind of engage in those discussions or reason to engage in those discussions, um, without inserting myself. You know what I mean? It's this kind of thing of, cause that happens sometimes people, people, um, they, their intentions are good that they do have empathy for what people are going through, but they kind of come in and without knowing or having any sort of connection to any of the experiences of whatever's uh, community 's going through. Um, you know, kind of ended up sort of speaking for, taking over, or trying to control the narrative or something like that. And I was always very cautious of that. But I think that this, this, uh, this history is, and in my sort of understanding of it in my connection to it has allowed me to intervene in a way. So it gave me a pathway to, to engage other communities as well. AT: 40:03 So, um, as far as your, your actual involvement with, um, the Japanese American community, um, did that, did that mostly start or happen for you in Minneapolis? JM: 40:21 Yeah. Yeah. And so I had not been a member of the JACL prior to that, even despite living in California for so long. I think what it was too was that, um, I- living in California, I had only lived in California, well I'd, but-primarily had lived only in California before moving to, to Minnesota. Um, uh, there were short periods elsewhere, but, but despite that, I think what, I think what it was is, I kind of sort of, the presence of Asian Americans, um, around me, I kind of took that for granted. You know, cause I mostly lived in California and that, you know, and so going to UCLA, going to UC Berkeley, I mean both, both student populations are like 40% Asian American. And so when I came to, um, Minnesota in Minneapolis, I noticed that there were far fewer Asians. And so I started, I think that had an effect on me too where I started to really be like, wow, you know, I, I feel really kind of like stand out and I didn't know that much about Minneapolis or the Midwest as well. So there's also these sort of stereotypes of which, you know, I'm guilty of as well of, of the Midwest where, um, you know, it's just mostly Caucasians and it's sort of a Midwestern attitude and so you kind of, you're a little wary. So I was already sort of on edge a little bit, like I'm not sure how I'm going to be received. Um, and so, but I do-but I do think that that, that having that experience of feeling like, well, I stand out even more, um, made me seek out that community while I was also going through all of these transformations in terms of my own sense of identity. And so, um, I think those, those two things kind of come together around the same time. And so that had, you know, the sort of, um, compounded the, the effect on me. AT: 42:29 Um, I am keeping an eye on time and I want to make sure that you have- JM: 42:33 -that's, that's fine [laughs] AT: 42:36 -enough time to go around. JM: 42:36 Oh yeah, there's en...[laughs] AT: 42:46 Um, as we, as we wrap up, um, I'd love to hear from you, some, some of the bigger picture questions, but um... JM: 42:58 Sure. AT: 43:01 I mean...in your opinion, um...like what, what do we need to learn from this history? Like what, what, what is like the crucial thing for people to understand and why is that something that is so important to you? JM: 43:24 Right. Um, I think that, and this is kind of for, for those that, that engage with the history of the, the Japanese American incarceration, um, that there's this question, could it happen again? I think that's com- you know, for us it's, it's common. We kinda hear it a lot. Um, but I do think that it's an important question to pose to the general public, uh, particularly because they're not familiar with thinking about it in those terms. And, and I think that, you know, learning this history really- it, it says that it shows, it demonstrates that this happened and all the reasons why it happened. Um, and understanding that really, in the present context, really does allow you to kind of think through what are all the things that led to the incarceration of Japanese Americans. And are we seeing those things happening today? And I would say we are seeing those things happen today. You know, a, a kind of hysteria of, you know, um, prejudice, you know, uh, particularly based on race and religion. Um, um, and then, uh, another often stated cause is failure of political leadership. That is the, uh, not only, not only the executive branch of the government that is the president or whatnot, um, but also, uh, amongst the judicial, the Supreme Court. And so we see the Supreme Court in, in, uh, in the 1940s deferring to the military and saying, well, we're not gonna question. We don't feel like we're in that position of questioning, uh, the judgment in the military who said that the exclusion was necessary. Um, we see similar kinds of, not complete deference, but some deference in terms of the, uh, Muslim ban, um, right now. And so it's hard to know where the Supreme Court's going to go with that too. So I think that, and then obviously, um, Donald Trump is president and the kinds of things that he has, he has said, and his policies and what he's already done demonstrates this kind of failure of political leadership to, to protect the constitutional rights of, um, American citizens and also American- Americans who may not be citizens, but, but still are residents of the United States. Um, and so it's really important to reflect on this history and to have some underst- understanding of how it unfolded, um, so that it doesn't happen again, even though it is happening now. And so we have to think of ways that, you know, how do we challenge that? How can we challenge? And part of that is education, getting, getting the public to be aware, um, that this is going on. And uh, have an understanding of what had happened to Japanese Americans, but then also what's going on now and to hopefully convince them that it was wrong and that they will stand up because the politicians will eventually follow the public if there's enough of the public who, who, um, uh, stand up against certain policies. Um, during, during the wartime, the, the population in California influenced the politicians there to support the exclusion of Japanese Americans. But if they had been against it, I don't think that the politicians would have been so inflammatory in terms of their rhetoric towards, towards that. They were just sort of following what their constituency was, was, um, was suggesting. And so I think that if enough people stand up to a point where actually does put pressure on politicians, they will, they will follow whatever their, you know, the voters will go. And so I think it's really about educating the, the, um, the general public. Um, I know that there's been engagement with, you know, trying to convince politicians of certain things. And I don't, I, I question if that's effective even when you try to educate the politicians because they're- they can be quite self-serving and wanting to stay in office. And so they kind of, um, aren't so, um, aggressive in terms of promoting certain policies that may or may not be popular amongst their voters. And so they're very careful about how they go about things regardless of what they actually think. And so I, but I think that the, that having the voters, the general public know and be very vocal about this is where it's at. And I think that begins with education, knowing what it is that you're vocal about. And I do think education is important too because I think, um, just sort of your moral values and feeling that something is wrong is not enough. That you're not going to convince people by saying, oh, that's wrong, it's immoral or whatever. I think you really do need to know the facts of the history or the present situation in order to, um, combat those that support, um, you know, immigration bans or support, um, bigoted or, or racist views. Um, because what I would say is don't underestimate those people. That there is a sense that, that those that are more left leaning or support, you know, immigrants and refugees and are against racism, that they, that they tend to portray the, those on the other side as ignorant. And I think that that's a very dangerous way of approaching it because what I'm finding is that you're finding people on the other side who actually are very well argued and well thought out in terms of their, their, um, their stance and why they believe what they believe. And they're not necessarily, you know, dumb people. I think they're misguided. I, I disagree with, with their, with their, uh, but, but I think having a respect for their intelligence is important because, um, you don't want to underestimate them and that, what that means is you have to be educated as well and you have to be well prepared so that if you come into a confrontation to where you're, you know, either debating or whatever, whatever kind of thing with them, that you're well prepared to counter the argument with facts and with evidence and with a logical, you know, thought and information and not just, not just, um, your gut or your heart, you know. That's, that's a good place to start, to have that emotion, but you have to back it up. And so, and so that's kind of my long winded response to, to just saying that education is extremely important and why the facts of this past are very important to understand and to convey to people. AT: 50:31 One last thing I'd like to ask you about is just, um, you, you've touched on, um, working with other communities of color, other communities that are experiencing different kinds of, um, systemic violence or oppression. Um, that the, the Japanese American story can- has potential to um, shine light on certain injustices. Um, but especially in, in this kind of work of, of trying to build those connections and those, um, cross cultural or cross community bridges. Um, one thing I'd love to hear from you is your thoughts about what needs to-what kind of work needs to be done within the Japanese American community in terms of, um, really calling out and confronting certain issues that exist within our own community. So I'm, I'm speaking specifically of some of the pr-prejudice that exists in the, I think Japanese American communities across the country, whether it's anti-blackness or homophobia or transphobia. Um, you know, there is classism, you know, I think there are a lot of these, um, issues that, that, you know, a lot of communities are guilty of themselves. So I guess my question to you is, um, with, what do you think needs to, how can we build true solidarity with other communities and really use this story is kind of a, a platform or a start of the conversation? JM: 52:38 I think part of it is, has to do with, um, the youth in our community, in the Japanese American community. I do find that there's a generational, and this is sort of normal, but generational differences that is the, that is the college age, younger, younger, um, uh, individuals from the Japanese American community tend to be more open minded. They tend to be not- because they're growing up in an era where, you know, being outwardly racist is wrong, or at least it used to, you know, [laughs] maybe it's, it's- being more, unfortunately, being more accepted than, than, um, obviously then we would like, um, but in an era where there is, there is that sort of, that it's socially unacceptable to, to report certain kinds of views. Um, that wasn't the case in earlier generations where it- we lived in a society that was very, you know, homophobic and not open to LGBTQ and, and, and then also was very racist. And so, um, so I do think that that, it's not that I'm writing off the older generations, but I do think it's, it's, it's as we move forward, it's really about ensuring the youth in our community have an understanding of this history, but also within the context of what's going on with other communities. And so, um, um, like I know here in, in Chicago that there's the Kansha Project, right? And then there's also the Bridging Communities, um, thing. So those, those two, those two projects that, that really bring communities together, but they're bringing the youth together. And so th-th- I think that's really significant in terms of, and it's not just, "Oh, well we're Japanese American, so we're going to learn Japanese American history and then we're just going to say, oh, well we can go talk to, to, you know, Muslim youths" or whatever. Um, it's, it's saying, "No, well, you're going to learn your own history and then you're gonna learn about Muslim American, um, history and identity experience as well". And so we're going to bring these two communities and vice versa with, with, um, Muslim American youth. And so it is this thing of say, bringing communities together, but also while they're young and, and to build this kind of understanding and experience. Because I think a lot of, you know, a lot of bigotry and racism really is rooted in ideas people have about other people that they have no real experience with. That is they don't get to know these other communities that they're bigoted against. Um, that there's just ideas that they have about them. I mean, most, I would be almost certain that most people that are currently have issues with are bigoted against, or racist against, or however you want to phrase it, against Muslim Americans, don't know any Muslim Americans, have never known any Muslim Americans. Um, and I think that, that, that key to sort of breaking down some of those barriers is, is bringing these communities together. And so it is finding ways, finding ways to do that. And I think for us it's that, it's that mutual mutual history. It allows some sort of connection to be made. Um, but, you know, it's, it's hard, like you kind of bringing up that the issues within our own community as far as the racism, but, but again, I think that it's hard, it's, you're going to be hard if, if you, someone who's in their seventies or eighties in our community who has these racist views towards other groups, we're not going to, we're not going to change who they are at this point. I really don't think that that's going to happen, but I do think we can affect, um, the youth, cause they're still being shaped. Their, their perspectives on the world is being sh-shaped. And, and as others say, no one comes into this world learning how to hate other people. You know, they don't, they're not, it's not an innate thing. You, you, you learn, um, hatred towards others. And so, you know, then you learned that very young. And so that's where we have to really hit that. And that goes for all communities. It's not just the Japanese American community, yeah. AT: 57:11 Um, before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to add or that we might've missed? JM: 57:17 Um, no. [laughs] I think we covered... AT: 57:21 Quite a bit of ground. Well, thank you so much for, for coming in and speaking. JM: 57:25 Thank you, thank you for having me. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MatsunagaJohn20171007.xml MatsunagaJohn20171007.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Matsunaga, John Michael (10/7/2017)
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2017-10-07
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Takada, Anna
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One, Satsuki
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/28/2017 One, Satsuki (10/28/2017) 0:21:21 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. One, Satsuki Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/302148640 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/302148640?h=5984cb4f59" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:01 This is an interview with Satsuki Mei One as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition, "Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II, and the Demise of Civil Liberties". Today is October 28th. Um, and we are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Uh, Mrs. One is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name please? Satsuki One: 00:36 See, see now I didn't hear clearly. AT: 00:37 Your, your full name. SO: 00:39 My full name. Okay. Satsuki Hayashi Mei- I just added that on because people had a hard time saying Satsuki- Mei One. AT: 00:52 And uh, where and when were you born? SO: 00:55 Where am I what? AT: 00:57 Where and when were you born? SO: 00:58 Oh, when was I born? My birthday? Okay. My birthday: May 2nd, 1928. AT: 01:08 And where were you born? SO: 01:10 In Marysville, California. AT: 01:12 Marysville. SO: 01:13 Mhm. AT: 01:13 Can you, can you tell me about Marysville? What kind of town is that? SO: 01:18 It was a little town, little, very little town. If it weren't for the war, I would've married a farmer or something, you know, I would have stayed there, never would have left there. AT: 01:28 And, and what was it that your family did there? SO: 01:31 My father had a grocery store, so. AT: 01:34 And, um, your parents, did they, did they come from Japan? SO: 01:40 Oh yes, oh yes. And uh, they settled in California, you know. AT: 01:46 Where, where were they from? SO: 01:49 From? Well, every time when somebody asks me that I got, I gotta think about it. But, um, uh, you're talking about the area or are you talking about the town or something? AT: 02:04 Just the area, if you know. SO: 02:06 Well, I would say near Kobe, in the country area. Yeah, they were all from the country. AT: 02:18 And do you have any siblings? SO: 02:20 Oh yes. AT: 02:21 How many? SO: 02:23 Well, there's six of us. One, my sis- one of my sisters passed on a few years ago, so there's five of us here. AT: 02:32 And all, all sisters or? SO: 02:35 All girls. AT: 02:36 Oh wow. Where were you in the birth order? SO: 02:39 I was uh, third. Third one. AT: 02:41 So, in the middle. And, um, so growing up in, in Marysville, what, did you go to school or what was kind of like an average day? SO: 02:55 Yeah, average. Yeah uh, grammar school, you know, that kind of thing. And then I graduated grammar school when the war started, so we ended up in the camp. Yeah. So. AT: 03:09 And did you do any other activities outside of school? SO: 03:13 No. You mean in camp? AT: 03:15 No, before the war. SO: 03:18 No, no no, I was too young. AT: 03:26 And um, so the, you were about to enter high school when the war broke out? SO: 03:30 Right. AT: 03:30 And so- SO: 03:31 So freshman year I started in, in camp. AT: 03:34 Okay. And do you, do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked? SO: 03:40 Day that what? AT: 03:41 That Pearl Harbor was attacked? SO: 03:43 Oh yeah, December. AT: 03:49 Do you remember the day though? Like when it happened, what you were doing, what you were doing or does that day stick out to you? SO: 03:59 I didn't hear that. AT: 04:01 Do you remember what you were doing that day? SO: 04:04 Oh, no, no, no, not at all. I was too young, I think. AT: 04:08 Um, and then what about when the evacuation orders went out? SO: 04:15 Evacuation date, you want? AT: 04:18 When, when you found out that your family had to- SO: 04:22 Yeah, what about it? AT: 04:22 Do you remember finding out that what was going to happen? SO: 04:26 Well, my father told me all about it and of course that that thing was pasted all over town, you know. Oh, it was a terrible day. AT: 04:36 And, um, so can you, can you tell me a little bit about what happened, um, with your family, where you had to go or what happened when the war broke out? SO: 04:53 Well, like I say, I was young yet, but then so many of us, um, it was hard to believe that we had to leave our life actually, you know, and um told to go to a camp way up north and we didn't know how long we were going to be there or anything. But my parents were hoping that it would be a short visit, you know, but my father packed a lot of things and pack, made special boxes and he even made a, uh, nice firm box for my mother's sewing machine and she packed it all up and we had a family knit number, 39337. He had written all over the boxes and everything. So, you know, we're told just to bring the things that we can ca- carry. But we brought a lot. You had to bring your linens, you know, for bed and all that kind of thing. So we had to pack, but we weren't refused, you know, once we did it, and we were told just to bring your personal things. That's all. We couldn't have survived if we did that [laughs]. AT: 06:06 And so given that, given your age at the time, did you understand what was happening or? SO: 06:16 Well, I don't know, as much as a 14-year-old can understand, but it was hard to believe to, to leave my town and the life that we lead, as simple as it was. It still was hard to believe that I was leaving yet I had to leave it. But you know, you're a family and you'll have to go together, so you don't think further than that, you know. But, uh, we were called, we had to go. AT: 06:45 And were there any other Japanese American families from your hometown? SO: 06:49 Oh yes. Yes. Very many. Quite a few. AT: 06:53 So did you, you knew some- did you know any of the people that also had to leave? SO: 06:58 Did I what? AT: 06:58 Did you know anyone else that was being evacuated? SO: 07:04 What do you mean anyone else? I had a lot of friends if that's what you mean. Yeah. We knew each other. It was a smaller group than when you think about it, you know. Yeah. We knew each other. AT: 07:16 And, uh, where was your family sent to first? SO: 07:20 Straight to Tule Lake. AT: 07:24 And how did you get there? SO: 07:26 By train. Yeah, it was, um, old trains, you know, and the shades were drawn down. We couldn't see through and uh well, a slow train too, you know, to go up to north. And uh, so from there, after a couple years, we were sent to Colorado, which is Granada. AT: 07:54 And so when you, when you left for camp, it must- or for Tule Lake, um, was that in '42? SO: 08:03 Mm, I think it was '42. Yeah. AT: 08:11 And do you remember, um, like arriving to Tule Lake, what it was like? SO: 08:17 Arriving? Not particularly. It was so, I never saw so many Japanese at once, you know? We, we didn't know there were that many, that Japanese, but, uh, well more when went into camp at Tule Lake, was full of Japanese, so we got to know other people, friends that we would never have met, you know. But, um, yeah, that was fun for me because I was young yet, had fun, you know, playing around and that kind of thing. But we made, made fun for ourselves, you know? AT: 08:57 Do you remember what you would do for, for fun? Because especially when you got there, you, school was out, so you probably weren't going to class yet. SO: 09:08 Not, not right away, but yeah. But, uh, we had to go register and all that because I was freshmen see, so I had to lines, you know, to get the classes listed uh, for me. And so it was a, I think it was like a little adventure because something that I wouldn't have if, if I wasn't going to high school, you know? AT: 09:32 And your sisters, um, were they all in school as well, or school age? SO: 09:37 Mhm, yeah, mhm. AT: 09:38 Um, how old was your oldest sister? SO: 09:42 My oldest sister, she, she was, uh, let's see, how old was she? You know, I don't know how old she was, but she was the oldest. I don't know exactly, so I don't want to say it. Um, then there was another sister in between, but she was sent to Japan years before to get education in Japan. So we didn't see her for about 10 years. AT: 10:07 Was she the only one? SO: 10:11 Yeah, mhm. AT: 10:11 And, um, with your family, did you speak Japanese? SO: 10:15 Yes, but among us, you know, sisters, of course we didn't, but. AT: 10:20 With your parents? SO: 10:23 Mhm, and I went to Japanese school too, so. AT: 10:26 Um, in California? SO: 10:31 In it, yeah, mhm. AT: 10:31 And then, um, so do you know how long you were at Tule Lake before going to Amache? SO: 10:39 It was a couple years. AT: 10:42 And um, how was Amache different than Tule Lake? SO: 10:48 Well it just...was a smaller camp than Tule Lake, certainly. It was a little more civilized, a little bit more. But, uh, I think it was more comfortable. And then of course the high school was better 'cause they had a high school building. Tule Lake was brand new, so we went into the barracks for, for our classes. Then when we went to Amache, we had the high school and I, you know, everything was there and, and what a high school would have, you know. And uh, so it was more like natural, should be like that. So that was fine. And then I didn't, uh, I went through let's see, um, sophomore and junior and then we came to Chicago and I finished my last year here. AT: 11:43 And um, so how did that work that your, your family came to Chicago? Was, was that through your dad or, did you have any relatives? SO: 11:53 Yes, my father said, uh, well we're, we're in Colorado now and it's not, I mean, we were halfway through the country practically. So I want to go see Chicago. I don't want to go back to California right now. So let's go to Chicago. And so my mother and father went, came here and just looked around and see how it was possible that we could live. And then he, being a businessman, he bought a grocery store. There was a grocery store where the man was selling it. So he took it, it was a small one. And so he, he'd rather do his own than work for somebody. So that's what happened. AT: 12:39 And where, where was that first grocery store? SO: 12:42 853 North Clark, [laughs] Clark Street. AT: 12:48 What was the grocery store called? SO: 12:49 I don't know. I don't remember. It might have just said 'grocery' maybe that's all. I don't remember. AT: 12:57 Was it Japanese American-owned or was it someone else? SO: 13:00 No, well, no, they paid rent for the place, but then it was my father's grocery store and it was small. It wasn't very big. I even worked in there. Sliced meat and passed out the, the butter that we would have to get, you know, with coupons, you know, you had to cut out, pound one, and cut it into fours, you know, pack it up and all that. So I went through all that part. AT: 13:27 And so the, this was your family came to the North Side, um, where exactly did you, your family settle? SO: 13:36 Yes. That, in that North Side section, yeah. AT: 13:38 Um, which neighborhood or or streets? SO: 13:42 Well, it's Clark. Um, we later moved just to, uh, just to room our sis- my sisters and I, we didn't want to stay there and live right by the grocery store. So we went to LaSalle Street and we rented a place there just to sleep. It was tough time those days. There were so many of us, you know, and my father didn't have a place to, for us to stay, so it was, it wasn't very comfortable. AT: 14:20 Um, was, do you know, was it difficult? Was there housing discrimination or, or what was, what was the big challenge in finding a place to stay? SO: 14:32 Well, I guess, I guess, well, he didn't, he couldn't afford uh, moving in a place or apartment or something. And I don't know if they would've given him anything. At that time, there was still disc- like uh, in Chicago, there was some discrimination, but, um, we just stayed in that place and then I decided to work as a schoolgirl and, um, I worked, I went to school from the family that I worked for, for them. And um, for a little while I did, but it was a little uncomfortable, yeah. So I came back to them. My mother and father were behind the store actually, and we said, 'Oh, we can't do this. This is bad'. So we found a place that, in Rockford that I had to go and I took a job as a school girl there and I ended up with a family that wasn't, that wasn't very nice to me. So that was tough. I had many crying nights, crying days. Um... AT: 15:44 How long were you there in Rockford? SO: 15:47 When I was there, what did? AT: 15:48 How long? SO: 15:49 How long? Very short, actually, because I had signed up for my last year of high school and, uh, then the family decided they'd like to move to Arkansas and I said, 'Oh no, I'm not gonna move, I'm staying here. My family is here'. So, um, that was it. And then I talked to my mother and she says, you come back here and I'm gonna stay there. So that was it. And, uh, we, uh, stayed there and I went back to doing schoolgirl and I finished my uh, senior year. AT: 16:29 And where, where did you go to high school for your last year? SO: 16:34 Lakeview High School. AT: 16:36 And, um, so were you commuting from the family's home to, to school? SO: 16:43 No, the uh, well I was doing some school work, school group, schoolgirl work. That's all. So from there I went. AT: 16:56 Do you remember your, your first impressions of Chicago when you first came? SO: 17:00 No, I don't. It was big. That's all I knew. Big, yeah. The train came in and big station and said gee, where are we? You know, big city. Yeah, it was a quite, quite a surprise to see such a big city. We didn't see anything like that. We came from a small town, went into camp and when then you know, so it was first time we saw a big city. AT: 17:34 And then, um, I'd love if you could tell me a little bit more about your dad's grocery store and we can wrap it up soon. But, um, what kind of, so he bought the business on Clark Street. Do you know where, um, on Clark that was near, like which intersection? SO: 17:56 Do you know the Newberry Library, over there? It's about a block away. It's um, people know that. Um, that's how close we were to the Newberry Library and Chicago Avenue was on the other side, so. AT: 18:12 Oh, okay, so is this by Clark and Division? SO: 18:14 It was close to the Moody Bible Institute was on the, yeah. So that's where we were. AT: 18:21 Um, were there any other Japanese American businesses around that area? SO: 18:25 Oh yes. There were a lot of Japanese stores. They sold Japanese goods. AT: 18:31 Like food, or? SO: 18:35 Yeah, canned goods. And you know, I'm, I'm sure they must have had something like what we did too. We had a lunch meat and uh, the Moody Bible Institute students used to come in the evening and they'd have a few, few pennies and these, they'd want to spend it for something and they'd buy a bottle of pop or something with a, uh, one of those little cakes, you know, they, I mean, it was sad to see grown up people, you know, counting their pennies and coming just to our little store to buy that and go home, you know. But, uh, yeah, they, they were very nice people of course. AT: 19:17 And did you, um, did you make friends when you arrived to Chicago? SO: 19:21 When...in high school. Just high school, not neighborhood, you know. AT: 19:28 Were you a part of any social clubs, or? SO: 19:31 No, no. Well, I did go to, um, I went to a, um, fellowship group through church and I met some people there. Yes. AT: 19:43 Which church was that? SO: 19:45 Uh, let's see, the St. Paul Fellowship, St. Paul Church. But I don't know if those, this fellowship was St. Paul Fellowship Church. So, that's how I met some of my friends. They were Japanese. So of course just like us, you know. AT: 20:03 Other folks that were in camp, or? SO: 20:06 They, they left camp and moved, yeah. Different camps. So, they were brand new people that I met there. AT: 20:16 And when you started having children, did you share with them about your experiences in camp? SO: 20:23 Well, you know, I, I don't really remember that much. We didn't, you know, we tried not to talk about it too much. So, um, I think that was why I didn't share a lot of things with them. They ask me now, well, why didn't you teach us all these things, you know, but we tried not to. When you're going through the war and being discriminated, you know, we kind of were careful. So, so I, we didn't do too much. So that's what I tell them. I couldn't tell them, talk about it a lot of times. AT: 21:00 Um, well thank you so much for, for sharing it with me. SO: 21:06 Alright. AT: 21:07 Um, is there anything else that you'd want to add or that maybe I missed? SO: 21:11 No, I don't think so, I told you enough [laughs]. AT: 21:14 Well, thank you again. I really appreciate it. I'm sure your family does too. SO: 21:19 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OneSatsuki20171028.xml OneSatsuki20171028.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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One, Satsuki (10/28/2017)
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2017-10-28
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Takada, Anna
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One, Keith
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5.4 10/28/2017 One, Keith (10/28/2017) 0:33:09 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. One, Keith Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/308363255 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/308363255?h=5662cf263d" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 This is an interview with Keith One as part of Alphawood Gallery Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. Your oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition "Then They Came for Me: the Incarceration of Japanese Americans during WWII and the Demise of Civil Liberties." Today is October 28th, 2017 at about 3:15 PM. We are recording at the Alphawood Gallery Oral History Studio. Keith One is being interviewed by Anna Takada for the Gallery. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name? Keith One: 00:34 It's Keith One. AT: 00:36 And um, where and when were you born? KO: 00:41 I was born in Chicago, here in Chicago. This was in 1953. AT: 00:46 Okay. Um, and like I mentioned, it would be great if we could talk a little bit about, you know, your- where your family was, um, during the war and then we can get a little bit into your experiences of growing up in Chicago. Um, so briefly, where, your parents, where were they, um, the time of the war and what happened? KO: 01:08 Well, they lived in the Sacramento area. Um, Marysville was, my mother was from there, my father from Sacramento and they were both, um, sent to the Tule Lake Relocation Center. So they started there and then ended up at Amache in Granada, um, toward the end of the war. And, um, so from directly there, they, then they emigrated to Chicago, both of them, but they didn't know each other at the time. So they didn't meet each other until they arrived here in the city. AT: 01:38 And what was the, um, the draw for Chicago for both families? KO: 01:45 Opportunity. I think there was a fear for them to return to California. Obviously you know, very, very bad experience, bad memories and so to, to move east presented perhaps opportunity for jobs, a new life, let's say, away from the bad memories. And then I think that was the impetus for both of them to separately move to Chicago. AT: 02:12 And do you know what, um, both families were doing in California before the war? KO: 02:21 You know, I know my father, um, I think grew up in a very poor household. They were, they were farmers for much of their life. You know so there's a lot of manual labor going on. Um, and he had, um, two brothers and two sisters on top of it, and they all worked in the fields. I think it was the strawberry fields particularly they worked in. And my mother, I think she had a little bit of a better life. She, I think you heard from her, she had five sisters. Um, a very enterprising father. My grandfather who, you know, came to the United States as a young boy and, uh, endeavored to learn English and to work hard and to make a life for himself. Um, and so that's sort of, you know, that's, that was the beginning of both of their s- or the lives, both sides of the family. AT: 03:11 And then, um, so Chicago, then, what were the, their respective families doing once they got here? KO: 03:20 Well, I know that my father's father passed away, um, during the war, so, and I never had a chance to meet him. Um, and his mother stayed in California, she stayed there. Um, so on my mother's side, the entire family moved to Chicago. And I think you heard from my mother that she when, as I was saying, he's a very enterprising, my grandfather's very enterprising, hardworking man, and he had a succession of different businesses that he had. Grocery store was one. Uh, he had, uh, a dry cleaners as well and, um, and was relatively successful despite, you know, all the discrimination. You know, the cards were really, were up against him, right? I mean, they were stacked against him in many ways, but despite that, still succeeded to the point of being able to provide for his family and it's a very large family- six, six daughters and his wife. So, um, yeah, that's basically it for him. And he just, uh, and I, I had the pleasure to get to know him really well because he lived to be a nice long age and you know, and he, he spoke English, which was very, um, unusual for an Issei. And so I got to know him really well and we got to know each other very well. So, you know, of all the grandparents, I think he was certainly the closest for me. AT: 04:48 Um, I'm so, sorry, I'm gonna just correct this one more time [goes to move microphone]. KO: 04:52 Sure. AT: 04:53 And we'll edit this out. Um, yeah, that's one of the beautiful things about having editors [laughs]. KO: 05:01 Yes. AT: 05:02 Um, and, and so your father, what, what did he end up doing once he got to Chicago? KO: 05:12 Oh, he did a variety of different things. He was also a hardworking man, um, but uneducated. And so, you know, he had to take whatever jobs he could take. I know at one point he was selling vacuum cleaners door to door. Did that for a little bit. Uh, and then he finally ended up in a sort of an apprenticeship where he, he decided that he was going to work in the tool and die industry you know, industry that's pretty much died today, but, at least here in America. But he, um, he worked very hard at learning that. He, hooked on with a company owned by this man, and, um, was successful in the business. He rose to the level of general manager in the company. Uh, but since it was a family-owned business, he could go no further. So eventually he left that company and he started his own business. And this is probably about 1971 when he did that. AT: 06:12 And what was the business that he started? KO: 06:14 It was also tool and die. So he used his, his knowledge, um, to start that business and probably took some of his customers from his, uh, previous, um, place of employment and built a small but successful business for himself. AT: 06:31 And then, um, your parents, where did their families or where did they settle in, in Chicago? Which areas? KO: 06:40 You know, generally in the Lincoln Park area, around here, Old, Old Town maybe more specifically, I think. Um, um, I think you heard from my mother, you know, they lived in a variety of places, but around Clark, LaSalle, uh, across from the Moody Bible Institute, um, that's where my mother was. My father was I think farther south of that, maybe more on the west side of Chicago. I remember him saying he lived on Marshfield. So that was a street that he lived on as well. And so, a little bit separated in distance, but, um, you know, the, eventually they were to meet in Chicago. AT: 07:20 And where did they meet? KO: 07:22 I think it was in this fellowship group, um, through a church and it was, I think it was more a social club than anything else, but, um, it was an opportunity to meet other, uh, Japanese Americans who- Nisei specifically that, uh, were in camp as well and had emigrated to Chicago. So I think a lot of people sort of, uh, met their future spouses in that, in that place. AT: 07:51 And when did they get married? KO: 07:54 1950. AT: 07:56 And you were born '53? KO: 07:58 '53, right. AT: 07:59 So, um, where, where were they living at the time that you were born? KO: 08:07 Oh, well, once they got married, um, and this, this is interesting because I don't think she shared this with you, but you know they got married in 1950. They had a very difficult time finding a place to live because it, nobody would rent to Japanese Americans. They didn't want anything to do with them. So what they did is they put an ad in the paper. They said, they said specifically 'Japanese American couple seeking apartment'. And the wonderful thing, there was a lady, a landlord who answered the ad and said, you know, I'm specifically looking for a Japanese American couple. She wanted to rent to a couple that had the camp experience. So, so they able to get an apartment. It was a small apartment, one bedroom apartment. And um, that's eventually, that's where we lived at least for the first five years of my life. AT: 09:06 And where was that apartment? KO: 09:09 Oh, let's see. It was on, um, let me think. Oh, it's on Hudson, which is not too far from here either. AT: 09:17 Do you know any, any more details about why the um, the landlord was interested in having Japanese Americans specifically? KO: 09:28 You know, no, other than she just said when they, she answered the ad and talked to my parents, they, she just said, I think she said something to the effect that, you, 'I feel very badly about what happened to a lot of the Japanese Americans. And I wanted to be able to help by providing a place to live, knowing that it was very difficult for Japanese Americans to find apartments to rent.' So, very compassionate woman, I'm sure. I don't, I don't know her name. I don't know if she's still around, but um, that was really an answer, you know, to their needs. AT: 10:09 And so after the five years on Hudson, where did your family go? KO: 10:15 My father decided that, um, and I think this had to do with the experience of the war, camp and everything else. They wanted to fully embrace American life. They wanted to, um, not that they wanted to distance themselves from their heritage, but, but just that 'we're in America, let's be Americans,' you know. And so they decided that they were going to move out to the suburbs. Now this is 1958, right? And, and so they decided, and specifically my father decided that it'd be great to move out to a suburb called Palatine. 1958 and, um, decided that he was going to build a house. Um, and it just to, the way he kind of wanted it. And so he wanted an all brick house versus, he didn't want to have to paint. So he said, I want all brick house. He, he had a vision for the future and he said, you know, some day, we might own two cars. So he made sure that the house had a two-car garage and this is 1958, right? Very rare. And the neighborhood was all, almost all single-car garages, but he looked ahead and, and it was great. The interesting thing though was that when the house was being built, he wanted to, to see what the progress, how the progress is going, but he was afraid to stand in front of the house and observe, still fearful of retribution, maybe, whatever, prejudice. But, um, so what he would do is he would come by the house, but he would be at a distance, the house, you know, number of houses away from a distance observing the builders, building the house. But he didn't, he didn't dare go close to the house that was being built. So, again, I think that's just a carry over from, you know, all the, the prejudice and everything. Just even their, their experience with, uh, trying to find an apartment, right. You know, thinking well what, you know, with a neighborhood like this will it welcome a Japanese American family? Would they? But yet he wanted the safety of, at the time the suburbs, right. Just, you know, safer than the city. A better place to raise a family, have a yard, um, cleaner air, maybe it's better schools, whatever. So, you know, really, just a visionary in terms of all that so early, you know, to think about all those things. Um, and the house got built and we moved in. Uh, but thankfully they had no issues at all. Neighbors were very welcoming and uh, they were very grateful for that. And I think very lucky because it wasn't, not even a year later, another Japanese American family that wanted to move into the neighborhood did the same thing and building a house, oh, it must be three or four houses down from where they had their house and they would visit the house regularly as it's being built. People noticed that though and apparently there was a petition that was, that was raised to, opposing their move into the neighborhood. So my parents' fears were valid, right. That that could happen. But they're just fortunate enough that their immediate neighborhood was very welcoming and unfortunately this other family, not as welcoming, so. AT: 14:13 How far away was this home from your family? KO: 14:13 Probably five houses away. AT: 14:16 That's so interesting. KO: 14:16 Different street, but five houses away. It's just, it's just who lives around you basically. So, but over time, I mean their immediate neighbors across the street, both sides of their house and everything, they became all good friends. And just this morning, my mother was saying, it was interesting, this is just this morning, she's remembering her neighbor that lived right next door and when we moved in and my brother and I would sit on the on, there was a couple stairs in front of the house just sitting out there just, just looking around and um, quietly and her neighbor saying those, 'look at those cute Japanese boys just, just sitting there. Aren't they cute?' Now maybe we were, but you know a lot of people might not have thought that, right. But her neighbor next door said, was, was just wonder- she says 'this is great. I just love having you next door.' So very, very fortunate they had neighbors like that. AT: 15:15 And um, so was most of your upbringing in Palantine then? KO: 15:20 Oh yeah. Yep. Went through grade school, junior high and high school. So yeah, I lived there entire-and my mother still lives in the same house today. AT: 15:34 And you have two younger brothers? Um... KO: 15:37 Yes. AT: 15:39 And what years were they born? KO: 15:42 Well, uh, Darrell was '55 and then Jeff who's here also with me in '59. AT: 15:51 And, um, can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like growing up in, in Palatine? KO: 16:00 Well, um, I said our, our neighbors were welcoming, you know, I think when we went to school, um, it was a little bit different, right? Palatine at the time was just all Caucasian. There were no, no minorities. There are no African Americans, no Asian Americans. I was the only one, basically. Kindergarten was pretty, there wasn't much issue. I think when you're five years old, kids don't know the difference really. Um, but in first grade I had a different experience. And um, this is kind of interesting because, you know how you do the school pictures, you take school pictures, you get all dressed up, take the school picture, and then you wait for it to come. And then you bring it home from school and you give it to your parents, right. And it's got, you have the big picture and it's got all the little ones, all just in there. Anyway, um, my mom pulls out that picture of me in the first grade and I did not have a smile on my face. It was more of a frown. And she goes, 'oh, what's,' she says, 'what's wrong? How come you look so unhappy? Why do you look so unhappy?' And I said, 'well, oh, what, you know, I don't, I don't like this.' And she said, 'well, what is it that you don't like?' And I said, 'well, I don't like my face.' And my mom said, 'well, why don't you like your face? You know, you have a cute face.' And I said, 'it's different.' And that was what, that was in first grade, probably my first, you know, realization that I was different. I mean, at least physically different because kids told me I was. AT: 17:52 Even at that young age. KO: 17:54 Oh yeah. AT: 17:55 First grade. KO: 17:55 Yeah, yeah. So I remember in grade school and the early years, there was always a few kids that would make fun. You know, they'd say, you know, call me a Chinaman or they, um, or they would, you know, do things with their eyes, you know, and they go, you know, you go, Oh, you know, [slants eyes with fingers] 'Chinese, Japanese', and they'd say American knees [points to knees]. I mean, jokes like that. So, you know, so I felt that, you know, that discrimination, certainly not pervasive, really wasn't pervasive, but there was always a few kids that were like that, you know, and at least early on, but I'd say after like three, four or five years maybe, because we became part of the community, part school, and I participated in sports and got involved in things, that all that eventually just went away, you know, and then, and eventually other minorities started to move in. Some they had that one family I mentioned to you that were discriminated against. Um, there were a couple other Asian families that moved in when I was in high school, that kind of thing. American, uh, African American family too. So it became a little bit more diverse, not as diverse as it is today, but back then it was pretty, you know, getting pretty, uh, a little bit more diverse than it used to be. So that all that kind of went away. But when I grew up, I always felt, since I grew up with mostly Caucasians, I just felt like a Caucasian too. I mean, I just, all I saw were Caucasian faces around me and not really looking at my own. And so that's, that's how we grew up, my brothers and I. AT: 19:43 And what about at home? Um, at home, did you, um, in what ways were you, you know, maybe connected to Japanese heritage if, if at all? KO: 19:59 Well, that's the thing. I think, as I mentioned earlier, I think the effort, my parents effort was, let's become, let's embrace becoming Americans. And when we would eat meals at home, my mother would cook every day. We'd have the normal spa-, we'd have spaghetti, we'd have meatloaf, we, you know, we have chicken, all that kind of stuff. But the, but one constant we always had though was rice. So no matter what the meal was, there was always rice. And I think it was because my father, he would always want rice no matter what it was. And, um, I remember one day she served something, which I forgot what it was that didn't demand rice at all. And he just said, hey, where's the rice? You know what I mean? He just, it was just expected to have it every day, no matter what the meal was. So, um, so I remember that. But other than that, you know, everything was American to the 'T' in terms of, you know, how we lived, the clothes we wore, the food we ate, everything else. But there was still, I mean, we had extended family and we'd get together for holidays. New Year's was, was especially popular time where we could eat Japanese food. Um, so we kind of stayed in touch with the, with the Japanese side, but most of the year we just lived as regular Americans. AT: 21:22 Did you ever come into the city at all, in Chicago? When you were living and growing up in Palatine? KO: 21:28 We still had some family members that lived, extended family members that still live in the city, so we would come in for that. You know, my grandparents still lived here, some aunts and uncles, some cousins did. And so we would do that. But in, in many ways though, I think we, moving away. I think that changed that dynamic quite a bit because then you, you did lose a little bit of that, um, heritage, that connection, culture a little bit. Um, 'cause I know some people that, that stayed in the city, some were Sansei, that I think were much more connected to their heritage than, than we were. AT: 22:10 Um, and so the times that you would come into the city, um, were you aware or did you recognize like a Japanese- something of a Japanese American community here? Or is businesses or restaur- you know? KO: 22:29 A little bit. I mean it was mostly the North Side here, Lincoln Park area, I think, um, Lakeview. I think we saw some- where there were some Japanese businesses still around. Um, but you know, we saw that decline over time. It just, it just decreased and I think people end up scattering and that, that cohesive community that sort of used to be there, you know, just kind of started to, dissolving quite a bit. So I mean, to the point right now where, I don't know, you know it it's, you know, how strong or how big a community that that truly is today. AT: 23:09 Have you visited, um, Japanese American communities or like Little Tokyos or Japantowns on the west coast? KO: 23:17 Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Because I, I enjoy Japanese food. So, um, yeah, Japantown, both in San Francisco and LA. I've been there and I had an aunt that lived in Japantown, one of my mother's sisters still lives in San Francisco. And so we'd go there, we were there last year, my wife and I, and we strolled around J-town and ate some ramen, and did, you know, did some things like that. Went shopping at the Daiso store, things like that. So, yeah, we, we still, um, yeah, yeah. AT: 23:56 What has that felt like for you? Go- visiting those, um, those types of ares or communities? KO: 24:05 Oh, yeah, it seems familiar to me, right? I mean, it doesn't feel like it's a distant thing at all. Um, but it's not an everyday thing that I, that I experience. One thing that we've always wanted to do was travel to Japan because- never been there. And so we have the opportunity next month to go, my wife and I and my brother and his wife, Oh, we're going, we're going to go, it's a tour, but we're gonna go for two and a half weeks. We just have to go. It's, it's our heritage. It's our, um, it's the homeland in many ways. So we'll see. We'll see how that, how that goes going there. Not speaking the language is gonna be, makes it a little harder. And I, I wish my parents would have taught us Japanese growing up- it would've been so easy for us to, um, to learn as young children. But again, I think it's, they wanted to be, embrace becoming Americans. So they didn't focus on that. They didn't focus on teaching us Japanese. They didn't tell us about their experience in camp. I think that was, stays in with the theme of, you know, let's just become Americans. So I think they were successful. AT: 25:28 Do you have any, uh, expectations or feelings about this upcoming trip? Having never been? KO: 25:37 Um, I, I think I'll find it, um, even not having been there, I think I'll still find it familiar in many ways. Because, you know, even growing up, I mean, I, I've heard Japanese words all my life, individual words that we call things. Um, I understand to a degree the culture of politeness, being reserved, um, being clean, being neat. I mean, all those things are still things that I learned from my parents, right? That's probably very Japanese, um, and I, I expect that, I'll see all that also in Japan as well. So I think it'll be familiar, but also very different experience. AT: 26:26 Now you have, um, just a few more questions as we wrap up. Um, I'm wondering if you could, um, like in a few words, uh, describe the, um, the Japanese American experience or community in the Midwest. How might it be unique or...? KO: 26:58 Compared to what, West Coast for instance? AT: 27:01 For instance, or. New Speaker: 27:01 Well, I, I have a friend on the west coast that, um, we ended up working up working for the same company. He's also Sansei, but I, I, I saw his experience much different than mine. I mean, because again, I, I think he was more connected to the culture, a, greater, uh, Japanese population on the west coast surrounded more that, not just family, but just the community and everything else. I think coming out, coming to Chicago where that was much smaller and then eventually moving out to Palatine, which there was none at all. There was a stark difference there in terms of that. So, um, in some ways I wished I was still, and experienced that community, but I can also appreciate the, my parents' desire to embrace, you know, just being an American, living the American life and everything else and learned a lot about that as well. So they're different. I don't know if it's better or worse. Some ways it was better and maybe some ways is worse, but definitely different. AT: 28:18 And are there any ways that you've seen um, uh, some of the impacts of either the incarceration or resettlement to Chicago? Have um, like those legacies playing out in your own life or experiences? KO: 28:38 Not so much because as you heard my mother say, she didn't talk about it that much. So we didn't, I don't think we understand or realize the full impact of, you know, being pulled away from your home and your, and you know, where you grew up, your business in the case of my grandfather. And, and in one week's time just be sent off somewhere. Um, and then all the prejudice and retribution that came even afterwards as we talked about the difficulty of getting an apartment to rent, things like that. You know, that's many years of hardship in many ways that I can't fully understand. One because they didn't talk about it. But secondly, it's just, um, unless you live it, I don't know how you'd really fully understand it. An exhibit like this certainly helps. And we've seen other exhibits too. But again, it's, it's all- you're seeing our pictures and words, but to live it, that's gotta be totally different. AT: 29:44 And at what point in your life did you start, um, 'cause it seems like you've investigated a little bit, what happened with your family? At what age um, did you start looking into that and what inspired that search? KO: 30:01 I'd probably say it was even after college because again, I mean it wasn't really spoken of and um, I, I think it's just, um, yeah, just relating with my grandfather for instance, and in his last days, certainly. Um, and the interesting thing, he had recorded some, some things, uh, of his life also, not on film but, but just of uh, audio recording that I've had a chance to listen to a little bit and also gave me a perspective. And it also peaked interest in terms of, well, what, what did they really go through? So, and I remember asking my mother a lot of questions about that too. But again, I think there's a reluctance to share that or maybe it's so painful that it's just wanting to block it out a little bit or not relive it. Maybe that's, that's the reason. So I don't think I could fully understand, but certainly coming to the exhibit, we're trying to at least better and bringing my sons here, you know, Yonsei, we want them to also understand that as well. AT: 31:16 Last question. Um, what, what hopes do you have, um, for your children and maybe grandchildren or what kind of, if you could pass down some kind of legacy or, or message to them, what, what do you really want them to have or to understand? KO: 31:39 I think I want them, I want them to have some pride in their heritage. It continues to get diluted, obviously as, um, you know, we have, um, you know, interracial marriages, children, 'hapas', that, um, um, would seem to maybe dilute that, but it, but, but it doesn't mean that you can't know that that's still part of your heritage, right. And, um, you know, understand what the Japanese Americans have gone through. And that that's a legacy that has helped them, right? The reason why they're here, the reason why every successive generation has worked hard, to provide opportunity, right? And so it's, it's great to see them succeed. I also want them to be reminded that that success is built on previous generations, hard work, that they could have this opportunity today. And I think my, my sons understand that certainly, I mean, they're both being very successful in their own right, but they know that it's come down from previous generations. So if they can just know that, embrace that, and hopefully for my grandkids and future generations, I hope that that will still carry on that way. AT: 33:03 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. KO: 33:06 Sure. You're welcome. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=OneKeith20171028.xml OneKeith20171028.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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One, Keith (10/28/2017)
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2017-10-28
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Takada, Anna
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Yasutake, Kristine
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5.4 11/3/2017 Yasutake, Kris (11/3/2017) 1:42:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yasutake, Kris Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/602228767/04073fa083 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/602228767?h=04073fa083" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 You could just start by stating your full name. Kristine Y: 00:00:03 Kristine Yasutake. AT: 00:00:06 Where and when were you born? KY: 00:00:08 I was born in 1951 in Chicago on the South Side around the 43rd and Oakenwald area, but moved very soon after that to Hyde Park. So I don't even remember. You know, I was young enough when we moved that Hyde Park is the only place I know and that's where I grew up. AT: 00:00:27 And um, did your family move anywhere after that? After Hyde Park? KY: 00:00:32 Not my mom and dad. They stayed in Hyde Park until all their lives. The rest of the family moved away, like most of the Japanese community did, but my parents were devout Hyde Parkers. So-- AT: 00:00:45 And you've stayed in Chicago? KY: 00:00:47 I'm the only one. I'm in Lincoln Park, but the rest of the family's kind of all spread out now. AT: 00:00:53 Okay. Um, and like I mentioned, if you want to start by referring to your notes and then we can kind of open it up with any questions I might have for conversation. KY: 00:01:03 Okay. I apologize for having to look at notes, but this kinda got bigger than I thought. It got away from me and so I have not memorized any of it yet. So anyway, as I said, I grew up in Hyde Park. I'm Sansei, both my mom and dad grew up in, on the West coast and uh until Executive Order 9066 of course, upended their lives and they had to go to Tule Lake with their families. At the time of the internment, uh, my dad was 24. My mom was, I'm sorry, my mom was 24, my dad was 20. They didn't know each other in Tule Lake. They didn't meet each other until after the war when they settled here in Chicago. So this is their story, or rather, it's the bits and pieces that I've been able to assemble over the years because unlike, like, because like so many Sanseis my parents didn't really like to talk about those war years and at least not to their kids. KY: 00:02:05 So my mom would talk about life before the war, which she wouldn't say much about the war except to say kind of darkly: 'You think you know who your friends are but you don't really.' So-- AT: 00:02:21 And where in the West Coast were they from? KY: 00:02:23 Well, okay, I'm getting to that. Uh, my mom was from Medford, my dad was from Sacramento, but anyway, uh, my dad was a quiet man, more comfortable with books than people and he said little about his life at all. My parents are both long gone, but fortunately my dad, my mom's younger sister who always called herself Auntie Nanny is still alive and with us at age 98. She loves talking about the old days and her memory is still surprisingly good. She always said that one of the biggest problems with getting old is that she has now outlived all her old family and friends and she misses being able to talk to them. She's happy that I want to hear her stories, but I can only ask her questions. I can't really share her experience with her and I can't corroborate her memories. Uh, after my dad died, we cleaned up his apartment and I ended up with my mom's Tule Lake scrapbook and a box of old documents that had family photos and uh papers. My grandparents' Japanese passports, uh, photos of the family in Tule Lake ; Uh, my mom's tags that she wore like what on the bus to camp, uh, letters from the WRA (War Relocation Authority) interviews conducted with my family. Uh, luckily at the time, which was 10 years ago, I had the foresight to sit Auntie Nanny down when she was a mere 88 years old and ask her to tell me the stories behind the photos, which she did. She had almost perfect recall. Then I put the box of memorabilia under my bed and pretty much forgot about it for the next 10 years until in April of this year at a movie downtown about the resistance of Tule Lake. KY: 00:04:31 I met a man sitting a few rows in front of me who turned out to be Mike Takada of the JASC (Japanese American Service Committee). And he said: 'Oh, you know, Alphawood's doing a big exhibition about the internment and JASC is gonna, has been asked to uh work with them. We're going to be partnering'. And I said: 'Ah, I got this whole box of stuff under my bed. You guys might be interested in seeing it.' Well, to make a long story short, I was about to go to Paris in a few weeks for an extended period of time. So I pretty much just took a box and foisted it at Ryan Yokota and said, here, use anything you want. So anyway, that's how my family's memorabilia wound up being included in the display cases here after many emails between me and Rich [Cayan?] And Tony Herschel. KY: 00:05:30 Okay. I know more mom, my mom's side of the family than my dad's, so I'll begin with that. My maternal grandfather was named Kinai Saito and he originally came from Guna--Gunma Prefecture, which is near Tokyo. He was the third son of a poor farming family and life in rural Japan was pretty tough in those days. At that time, Japan was becoming a military power in Asia. And so around 1894 when he was 10 years old, the Japanese army came to his parents' farm and they rec--went, requisitioned his horse for the war effort. And he said it was the saddest day of his young life. Well, my grandpa didn't want to be a farmer, so he decided when he got older to take his chance and come to America. So he arrived in San Francisco by ship in 1906, he was 22 years old and he spoke no English. As a young bachelor, he was able to travel freely, which surprises me, up and down the West coast. So we know from San Francisco, he stayed in places like Seattle. He went all the way up to Alaska and he was always able to find work with other Japanese immigrants. He said he liked America, he liked the freedom here. So he was pretty happy. Anyway as a bachelor in America, he soon met two other bachelors, also Nisei like him, and they were to become his lifelong friends. The first one was Louis Machino, who was uh university educated in Japan, in Tokyo, and he spoke and wrote English almost perfectly even, you know, before he came. Now my, I remember my mom saying that Lou has uh got into some kind of trouble with the government of Japan because he was an outspoken Leftist, so he had to leave the country. The other, uh, Issei was their friend, uh [Gunji?] Fujimoto who was called Fuji-San and he spoke and wrote English pretty well too, although not as perfectly as Luo-San. Uh, when the U.S entered the war, first World War in 1917, Grandpa Saito. went to the draft board and said, I'll volunteer to fight in the army if the government will give me citizenship. And of course, they said no. So he went and boarded the boat back to Japan and decided where he was basically going to meet a wife and bring her back to America. And that's exactly what happened. Grandpa Saito met my future grandma, uh Kinko, Shesaki at Tokyo hospital where she was working as some sort of a nurse. Now, grandma Saito's family was from, uh, uh, let's see. Saitama Prefecture, which was, uh, near Tokyo, and she was also from a farming family, so I am not sure how she got trained to be a nurse, but somehow she managed to do so. And uh, at some point or another, some young son from the Imperial family of Japan had to stay at Tokyo hospital and she was part of the team that was selected to, uh, to take care of him. And that was considered to be a very great honor, especially in those times when people were not even allowed to look at the emperor. They had to look down on the street and advert gaze, whenever he or anyone from the royal family passed by. But okay. Kinko Shimasaki was a beautiful young woman and apparently Grandpa Saito took one look at her and he liked what he saw. So, and he fell in love immediately. Uh, grandma was quite present, progressive at the time and she didn't want to be a farmer's wife any more than he wanted to be a farmer. So she agreed to marry him and come back to America with him. So in 1917 they were married in Japan, got on the boat, and somehow, uh, they wound up in Medford, Oregon, which is where they raised their family. I guess--I'm actually guessing grandpa was there before in Medford. Okay. Medford, Oregon had a population of about 20,000 back then. It was a really small urban town, all white, of course, rural community. And at the time there were only 36 Japanese people. Grandma and grandpa had a, a big house and a yard out in the countryside. Grandpa owned a dry cleaning business in Medford where he took care of the operations side and grandma worked behind the counter dealing with the customers. She liked learning English. And soon she spoke English better than he did. They had enough space on their property to rent rooms to seasonal Japanese farm workers who would stay about a year and then they'd move on. KY: 00:11:03 My mom Akiko Saito, Aki, was born in 1918 and two years later, her sister, Naoko Saito, Auntie Nanny was born. While they were young girls. Grandpa Saito invited Lou and Fuji, his old friends to live with them and they became part of the extended family. In the 1940 census records, they're listed as lodgers in the home, but they were actually really treated like uncles. Lou and Fuji, who were in the restaurant business and they worked for a very nice German immigrant man who owned a pretty upscale American-style restaurant in Medford and he hired them. So cor-- Uh, Fuji was kind of the manager. Uh, Lou was the chef and, uh, my mom and Auntie Nanny were put to work after school, helping out in the restaurant ; making pastry and doing kitchen chores because Fuji said 'young people get in trouble if they aren't kept busy'. Aunt Nanny sort of remembers those days and sighs and says 'there are child labor laws against that now' [light laugh]. When I look at the old photos of my mom and Auntie Nanny, I see two young, confident, smiling, happy girls posing with their schoolmates. My mom wearing tutu and uh ballet tights in her class, doing splits. Auntie Nanny wearing like a school band uniform playing an accordion. They're the only Japanese girls in their class, but they look like they're as assimilated as you could be in those times. Mom was even the Vice President of the Girl's League in high school. My grandma, my mom and Auntie Nanny were all Methodists and they attended Methodist church in Medford. But my dad, my grandpa remained a Buddhist. The photos of the Isseis in Medford, showed them wearing smart American clothes, the men wearing suits and bowler hats looking very dapper and the women wearing nice dresses and millinery, life was good. The Saitos had enough money to buy a car and after she graduated from high school, they had enough money to send my mom to Chouinard Art School in California. Grandma Saito hoped that one day she would, the law would change and she too could become an American citizen, which was her dream. KY: 00:13:49 In contrast, dad's family was very traditionally Japanese. His father, Asakichi Yasutake emigrated from the Fukuoka prefecture in Japan, which is Southern Japan. Around the same time as Grandpa Saito did, which we're guessing is about 1907. He too lived as a bachelor in California-- for years. But when it came time to marry, Grandpa Yasutake chose a picture bride, my grandma, Mitsuko Funakoshi also from a farming community in Fukuoka. They operated a cleaning business in Sacramento where my dad and his brothers and sister grew up. My dad, Hiroshi Yasutake, later known as Gary was born in 1922, the second son. The Yasutakes lived in Japantown, in the Japan town, part of Sacramento, a half a block from the Buddhist temple. There were a lot of Japanese living in Sacramento at the time, so you could get by not speaking any English [chuckles] if you stayed in the Japanese community. And so my grandparents never did learn English. Uh, they were devout Buddhists. They were very traditional. And not only did they go to temple regularly, they sent my dad's older brother to Japan for an education. In other words, he was Kibei. My dad was something of a nerd, studied hard and graduated near the top of his high school class. So the Yasutakes had enough money to send him to Sacramento Junior College where he graduated with a major in premed and the plan was for him to continue his studies and become a doctor. KY: 00:15:40 So in 1942, both of my parents are college students in California. Then Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. And we all know what happened after that. So they had to leave school to join their respective families on their journeys to Tule Lake. Both the Saitos and the Yasutakes lost everything they had worked so hard to earn: their businesses and their homes. I imagine life until Tule Lake for my, my parents families wasn't much different than it was for anyone else there. Uh, everybody knows the horror stories about the heat and the dust storms and scorpions and snakes and lack of privacy. Uh, Tule Lake was so remote that even though it was surrounded by barbed wire and the towers with the armed guards, uh, I heard that no one was really worried about anybody escaping because you'd die in the desert. So anyway, Tule Lake is located in Newell, California, but Auntie Nanny says, 'we always called it New-hell, not Newell'. At the time they were interned, mom was 24. Auntie nanny was 22. Grandpa Saito was 58 and Grandma Saito was 51. So the Saitos were all assigned to live together in one big, one barrack, a tarpaper shack. 'Ah, yes. Home sweet home', Auntie Nanny said when she saw the photo of the tarpaper shack here in Alphawood, in the exhibition. Uh, Lou and Fuji, you were assigned to live in some barracks that they had set up for all the bachelors, the single men. Everybody at Tule Lake had some kind of work detail. So grandpa was doing carpentry, grandma was working in the mess hall and Lou and Fuji as cooks of course, were cooking, which they were very welcomed of course. And my auntie says, everybody told them being cooks was the best job you could have in camp because at least you would never go hungry. So anyway, mom and Auntie Nanny joined the recreation committee at Tule Lake, known as [the Wreckers?]. And they helped organize dances and variety shows. Uh mom taught ballet at the Tule Lake dance studio and everybody did what they could to keep their spirits up. KY: 00:18:21 When the WRA announced that the Niseis could leave camp if they were accepted as students at a university or got employment, my mom and dad applied. Now remember, they didn't know each other yet, not until Chicago. So, uh, my mom's WRA interview report says: "Worked for Caucasians, lived with Caucasians mixed with Caucasians, won't have any trouble outside, good looking, neat appearance, talks and writes intelligently." Unquote. So mom was accepted as a student at the school of the art Institute of Chicago where she majored in fashion design and would win an award for, uh, uh dre- a dress, she designed. And this news was covered in the local papers under titles like: 'Evacuee Student Wins Fashion Award'. Dad had been working as an orderly at Tule Lake-based hospital. So when he saw an ad placed by a doctor at the university hospital in Ann Arbor, he applied and was accepted. The WRA approved his request to leave with the condition that he, that a military permit must be obtained for travel through the evacuated areas. He was 22 years old at the time. He was paid 53 cents an hour, which I was told is about the going rate for Niseis at the time. KY: 00:19:55 In 1943, the government and the WRA forced all adults in the camps to answer that infamous loyalty questionnaire. Tule Lake would soon be transformed into a segregation center housing only the disloyals. Grandma and Grandpa Saito and Auntie Nanny would be transferred to Minidoka. My dad's younger brother, Uncle Tom had answered "no" to question 28. The only member of the family who had done that when he was 19 years old. Dad told him that he better change his answer to "yes" or he was going to be separated from the rest of the family. So an interviewer from the review board for segregation wrote on his notes "bitter over evacuation", "misunderstanding". His brother had been relocated and has been very well treated and this has overcome his prejudice. So he wishes to change his "yes", his answer to "yes" and relocate. So they allowed him to change his answer and the family chose to relocate to Topaz where my dad's married, older brother was already living and when the government reclassified all the Nisei men to One A. In fact, Uncle Tom volunteered for the army, not the 442nd, the regular U.S army and was sent to Tokyo post-war for the next two years. When my dad was working as an orderly at the, at the hospital in Ann Arbor, he wrote to the military intelligence, uh, school language laboratory, le- language school at Fort Shelby asking to be accepted in their program. My dad spoke and wrote Japanese passably well because he had attended Japanese classes in Sacramento and so they called him in for an interview. He received a letter saying that he had been judged to be (quote) "linguistically qualified for further training at this headquarters preparatory to combat intelligence duty" all after a series of letters back and forth explaining how first he had to be inducted in the army and placed on some kind of special reserve corps and you know, a bunch of delays. He uh, got a final letter saying okay, you're to report to class at MIS (Military Intelligence Service) beginning October 1945. Well, in September, 1945, the war ended before he left to start classes. KY: 00:22:36 So anyway, the Niseis in my family had left camp before the war ended because they all found jobs on the outside, but my grandparents and other Isseis would remain in the camps pretty much until they closed. Now Grandma and Grandpa Saito had petitioned for early release from Minidoka and submitted the names of some of their hakujin (white person), friends and neighbors in Medford as references. The government did indeed contact these people because included in my family's files from Tule Lake, I mean, sorry, not Tule Lake from well, the government files. We found a letter written by a woman, obviously somebody they had known and trusted. The gist of the letter was, yes, I knew the Saito family back then in Medford and they were really nice people, but they've been in camp for years now and who knows if that has made them bitter and distrustful and besides they're Japanese underlined twice for emphasis and she recommended they not be released and they were not released until September 1945. I think this is what my mom was referring to when she said, yeah, 'ya never know who your friends are' ; having lost everything in Medford, including the trust of the people they thought they knew. Grandma and Grandpa Saito decided to join mom and Auntie Nanny in Chicago. They lived on the Northside in the area around Clark & ; Division where other Japanese families had settled. The Yasutake family all settled on the South Side in the area around 45th and Berkeley where all great many Japanese families had originally settled right after they got out of the camps. My dad had also moved from Ann Arbor to Chicago, and so he was living with his parents and brothers and at the same place until he met and married my mom. And they moved out to their own apartment nearby. One by one, all the Niseis in my family begin to marry and start having their own families. Auntie Nanny met and married Kenneth Yahiro and they moved, they bought a house in Park Ridge and my Auntie Nanny is still living there. Grandma and Grandpa Saito moved into an apartment on the 900 block of West Newport up near Wrigley field. Uh, and the day-- my dad's family, the Yasutake clan, pulled their resources and they bought a big three flat apartment in what is now the Andersonville neighborhood, and each of the kids took one floor. So we've got my dad's oldest brother and his family on the top floor, the younger brother and his family on the middle floor and on the ground floor, his sister and her family. And everybody's got kids and also they've got grandma and grandpa Yasutake living with them. So the whole family's all together in the one building there. KY: 00:25:59 Mom and dad decided to live to Hyde Park, move to live in Hyde Park. So my sister and brother and I were all born, sorry, we're not born there, we all grew up on the 5600 block of Maryland near the university of Chicago. Hyde Park was the liberal multicultural neighborhood even back in the 50s and my parents felt comfortable there. My mom had been a Methodist. My dad had been a Buddhist, but they decided to join the Unitarian Church in Hyde Park where they remained, uh, active members all their lives. And naturally they sent us kids there to the same church. So as kids, we did not attend Japanese school. We did not attend Buddhist Temple. We did not join the Japanese boy scout and girl scout troops, they were being created up on the Northside. My mom said she didn't want to be clannish and only hang out with Japanese Americans. And part of this stemmed from the fact that in Medford she had not grown up in a Japanese community anyway, but also I'm sure part of it had to do with the trauma of the, the relocation and the internment and uh, the WRA (War Relocation Authority) directives to the first Niseis who were allowed to leave camps, to not speak Japanese and to not associate with other Japanese unless they had to. So, and just as tellingly, we were not given Japanese middle names unlike most other Sanseis I know. In fact, my brother, his middle name is Louis, named after Lou from the old Medford days. But twice a year we'd behave like any other Japanese family. In the summers, every year there was a group called Fukuoka Kenjinkai that used to sponsor picnics in the uh park near (mantras?) beach and it last all day long. Everybody from the Fukuoka region, including the Yasutakes all came to the picnics with their families and they brought all this Japanese food and American food and they organized races for the kids and the adults alike. And the prizes were like big (cans of?) Kikkoman shoyu and 50 pound sacks of rice, which probably didn't last that long in those days because the Isseis were still eating rice three times a day. Anyway, it was a lot of fun and I still remember that. KY: 00:28:48 And every year our family of six would take the L (train) together, all the way up to the North Side to Andersonville to go visit the Yasutakes where grandma always put out this enormous spread. The whole table just covered with food. She was a great cook and so tempura and sushi and sashimi and everything. I mean it was just insane. And along with a bunch of stuff like those boring boiled vegetables, whose names I can't remember, and that red fish, it's supposed to be a carp in Japan, but here they used some kind of red snapper and you had to coil it up just right ; So that it was supposed to look like it was uh jumping out of the stream. And of course there was ozoni and a sip of sake in the morning first for good luck for the new year. So before stepping into the house, mom would always coach us to say: "(speaking Japanese)" in which we'd say to grandma and grandpa. And I knew, you know, that was all we knew and my grandma would fuss at my dad, "why don't you teach the kids how to speak Japanese?" But luckily for us, grandma and Grandpa Saito spoke English pretty well, so we were able to get to know them growing up. So I remember going up to their apartment in-- on West Newport, near Wrigley field and w-- and I've, we've got a lot of happy and funny memories of them. Grandma Saito tried to teach me to make sushi and I remember she was flabbergasted when I asked her, how come I had to sit there and fan it with those paper fans and why couldn't we just put it under the fan to cool? She just looked at me like "what"? And then grandpa would was always a trickster and he was always like playing jokes on us kids. He had, at that point he was completely bald. He was the only bald person we knew and we were fascinated by his head and he used to let us feel his head. So, and here we get props a prop. He used to tell us that his hair would grow back the next time we saw him. So I remember, this may have even been the same puppet, but at least we had one like that. He said, if we took this puppet and like did this on his head, that in fact his hair would grow back. So each of us did that and we were young enough that we actually believed him. So the next time we came back, we said, "you don't have your hair yet!" And he said, "Ah, it didn't work". And then he'd make up some other thing we had to do. And every time he said, next time for sure, hair ; while we believed this for awhile, because we were pretty young anyway. KY: 00:31:45 When I was 11 and my brother was 9, uh, on what se-- we went on what seemed to be this epic journey on the Santa Fe railroad to go see the old family friends from Medford. So it took us three days and two nights to get there. And since we didn't even have a car at that time, I had hardly ever been out of Hyde Park. And this was just a real journey. So anyway, uh, soon after the war, before she was married, Auntie Nanny had gone back to visit her old Medford friends, but she was the only one. And so now, all these years later, finally, mom and grandma Saito and grandpa Saito, her parents, were gonna make this epic trip to see the friends that they hadn't seen for nearly 20, 20 years at that point. And, uh, I think they all knew that this was probably gonna be the only time they'd see them because at that point the Isseis, were all in their seventies. So we stayed with their old friends in Medford and I remember being shocked by how small it was and how rural, having grown up in Chicago. And we finally got to meet Fuji and Lou, who we called Uncle Fuji and Grandpa Lou, who were now living as bachelors in Los Angeles. And sure enough, it was the last time we would see them. A few years later, Grandpa Louis died but at least he'd gotten to meet his namesake, my brother. When the government finally announced that Isseis could become American citizens, Grandma Saito happily enrolled in a program of citizenship classes and English classes. She had never given up her dream of becoming an American citizen and she had always told her daughters: "this is the best country in the world, you'd be proud to be Americans". And now she was hoping she too could become an American citizen and finally realize her dream. Well, unfortunately she died before that happened. Grandpa decided-- Grandpa Saito decided that rather than living in Chicago here as a bachelor, well not bachelor as a widow, he was going to go back to Los Angeles to live with Uncle Fuji. So he did and they, the two of them were staying there together until when grandpa was 87, he got sick and had to come back here and he moved in with Auntie Nanny and her family in Park Ridge. So he'd lived a long life. He was very calm, very philosophical. He was still a Buddhist, but before he died he decided to convert to be a Methodist just in case grandma was right about Methodist heaven. He said, well, if she's there in Methodist heaven, he didn't want her to be there by herself. And if she was wrong, no harm done. So, so he converted. My mom and dad were much more conflicted about their feelings. They felt betrayed and bitter about the internment because they were American citizens and good Americans, very assimilated only to learn that it hadn't been enough. There wasn't enough money left to for my mom to continue her studies at the art Institute. And there wasn't enough money left for my dad to, to go on to med school. Although he did go to Roosevelt University here in Chicago and completed a degree in chemistry, but many of their early dreams would never come true. KY: 00:35:40 Uh, it was only after my siblings and I became adults that mom began to send us the occasional thing she clipped out of a newspaper or magazine and she'd write little comments about it and mail it to us. So, I have a copy of, uh, of a from a page of a book about Tule Lake describing Thanksgiving and Christmas in 1943. Mom's cousin, uh, Perry Saito was a pretty well known Methodist minister there at, uh, Tule Lake. So mom wrote: "I speak only for myself. I shall never ever forget that first Thanksgiving and Chri- and Christmas. The services were so stark and so moving beyond anyone's wildest imagination, I never felt so alone and betrayed as I did at that time. And the impact of all of us gathering there and under the same circumstance is still within me and I can never fully tell you that feeling of being of being (lost?), words fail. I cry inside every time I think of those desperate days up there". By the mid 1980's my mom, who was-- always been outspoken about everything except the internment got outspoken about that too. And so when a teacher she knew from the Unitarian church, asked her if she'd be willing to come and speak to his, uh, his high school class about the subject. She said, "why not?" And agreed. And then later on she was interviewed by the local newspaper, the Hyde Park Herald, about her wartime experiences and her guarded hopes for the restitution, which hadn't happened yet, at that point. She did not pull her punches. "It was racism, pure and simple", she said. My dad never talked to anyone. Instead, he bought every book ever written on the subject of the internment. Since he couldn't find his words, he looked to others for theirs. It's always easier to talk to strangers than it is to talk to family. And I regret that I never had a heart to heart than--with, sorry, give me a second [Yasutake begins to cry]. I never had a heart to heart with my parents and my mom's case. Her death at age at 90, at 74 was a bit of a surprise, but my dad lived until age 84 and his health was failing. So I know I shouldn't wait too long, but I did. It seemed hypocritical to me to suddenly ask him about his experiences, uh, when we'd never talked about it before. So after a lifetime of not knowing who he was, so he, his secrets with them except for that box family memorabilia that I had. I do that. And then I turned two in April of this year. So that's when I looked in the documents and found the paper trail about my dad's brother in question 28. And I remembered hearing when I was a kid about how uncle Tom might've been a known, Oh boy, I'd heard it whispered by my mom, I think because in April this year when I called uncle Tom's widow, my Auntie Nanny, Auntie Nancy, to ask her what she knew, she had no idea what I was talking about. KY: 00:39:21 Apparently Uncle Tom had never told his wife or his children about how he answered. Question 28 if you want, I can pull those documents out of the box I'm giving to the JASC. I said, no. She said, this is what really happened. It's part of history. Go ahead and let them see it. We'd always seen photos of Uncle Tom in his army uniform, but we'd never know the back story. Maybe he thought we wouldn't understand. In that same box, the family memorabilia, I'd also found the paper trail showing how dad applied to MIS and been accepted, but hadn't actually been inducted because the war had ended before he had time to report to Fort Shelby. So in April of this year, I found dad's sister, my Auntie Mary, who is 86 year old now. And I asked her what she knew. Your dad was never an MIS. She insisted. I said no, but he would've been if the war hadn't ended. So I read part of the document to her. Gee, I never knew that she said, and her husband, my Uncle Kiki, who'd been listening in on the speakerphone concurred. Is that right? Well, your dad never said much about those times. You know, he never really got over it. Hm. Did my brother and sisters know about dad in the MIS? I asked myself yesterday, yesterday I asked myself, so I emailed them with the simple question. Was dad ever in the MIS? And each of them said no. They thought because he had a heart murmur, he wasn't eligible for service. Well, that was the same thing I had been told my whole life. So I, since my dad never talked about his life, I'm guessing my mom must have told us that, since all four of us remembered it. Which leads me to the question as of yesterday, what if my mom didn't know either? Here I am thinking it was strange that Uncle Tom never told his wife and kids about question 28. When, in my family, maybe my dad never told his wife and kids about applying to MIS. So we've got a pretty similar situation here. KY: 00:41:59 I mean, the issue of the Nisei, uh, in the service during the war of course was very controversial is we, you know, we all know from the George Takei, a Broadway musical allegiance, it tore families apart. And I think a lot of people just decided they weren't even gonna go there. Uh, possibly my dad thought his own father and possibly even his older brother. Cause I remember, uh, my grandparents had come from Japan and my old, his older brother had lived in Japan. He's Kibei, maybe he thought they wouldn't approve of it. And while pretty much everybody agreed that, okay, you know, even if you didn't agree about the circumstances of volunteering from the camps, everybody pretty much agreed that going to fight the Nazis in Europe was fine, going to work for MIS, if you think about it, is a whole different kettle of fish because you are being asked to work against Japan. You are being hired because you speak Japanese. So your intelligence to work is against Japan, which in fact is what happened. People working the Japanese working at MIS help crack the code for the Imperial Navy and they say, uh, helped end the war probably two years earlier. Anyway, I think it was just too controversial. My dad said nothing and if I hadn't found the paper trail I wouldn't have a clue either. But fortunately my dad never met a piece of paper he didn't like, he kept everything. And so we've got the documents. So this concludes my version of the family history. If you were to talk to my siblings and my cousins, you'd get a different story from each one of us. So much has been lost, misremembered, confused, suppressed. My dad's sister, Auntie Mary was only 11 when she was interned at Tule Lake, so although she's still alive, her memories are those of a child, which are different. So I've tried to construct my family's memories for them. So let me on the story with 98 year old Auntie Nanny, summary of her wartime experiences, unrelenting optimist, and the happiest person I know she likes to say, I look back on the camp experiences and in a way I'm glad they happened. I don't know how to explain that. I know terrible things happen to us in those years, but in many ways they were the happiest years of my life because I made such good friends in camp and we remained best friends all our days of our lives. So thank you JASC. Thank you Alphawood. Thank you Anna Takada. AT: 00:44:56 Thank you. Cause that was, wow. KY: 00:45:02 It was really long. It got carried away kind of like AT: 00:45:04 No, no KY: 00:45:04 It just kept getting longer and longer and I was adding to it even this morning before I came, so. I kind of didn't know where to end, but I decided the cut off was just to keep it my grandparents' and my parents' story cause my siblings and cousins who are alive can tell their own stories if they want to continue. I think I gave enough. AT: 00:45:23 Yeah. Thank, thank you so much for not only for coming in, but I mean putting that together. That's uh, that's incredible. And I, I think, I'm sure your family will value having, a, a narrative form of your family's story. KY: 00:45:39 Well, I think actually they'll, if they ever see it, they'll look at it and I'll hear nothing but fusing. "That didn't happen! Who said that? No, are you sure that's true?!" Anyway, I have some, a few family photos which I'll stick in front of the camera. AT: 00:45:53 Okay. Let's see. KY: 00:45:57 Am I close enough? AT: 00:45:57 It may be a little dark, but um, you can also. KY: 00:46:00 Turn on the light? AT: 00:46:00 Um yeah. KY: 00:46:10 Does that work? AT: 00:46:13 Yeah, we can also scan these if that's all right with you. KY: 00:46:16 Oh AT: 00:46:16 Bring it, here do you mind, just hold it down. KY: 00:46:22 Okay. AT: 00:46:22 Yeah, I think it might be best to scan cause it's taking a minute for them to KY: 00:46:26 Oh, okay AT: 00:46:26 Adjust KY: 00:46:27 Alright AT: 00:46:31 Um, but we can still go over them and maybe I can take note of KY: 00:46:37 Okay AT: 00:46:37 Which ones they are so we can match them up. KY: 00:46:42 Um, Grandma Saito, before she got married. I mean beautiful. I can see why Grandpa fell for her. Photos of them growing up in Medford. Now the best photos unfortunately are in the exhibit here in Alphawood. So. Grandma's Saito, mom, Auntie Nanny. AT: 00:47:03 And these, there are ones that I, I actually did see in the video in the 2007. KY: 00:47:14 Okay. Yep. She's gone through them so. AT: 00:47:16 Cause and you were commenting on the hair of the dolls. KY: 00:47:20 Dolls. AT: 00:47:21 The weird dolls. KY: 00:47:21 And one of them was like bald, I think that one. And so Grandpa took blue magic marker or something and filled it in. So you know, we've got that dapper photo of him with the suit and bowler downstairs. But that's in the exhibit so I can't show. So this was the only photo that I had with them. So this is their place in Medford. This is Grandpa Lou. Oh, very debonair. 1907, hes, uh, he's written himself in English, new machine, 1907 so, so that's probably what he looked like when he first met Grandpa Saito. And here he is just an old man. Yeah that's Fuji. So this is about 10 years before we met him. He was, he's a cook. AT: 00:48:02 And you all were saying he looks like Gumby? KY: 00:48:03 Yeah. AT: 00:48:05 So now I, now I know who he is. Cause in the video you were just talking about him. KY: 00:48:08 Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So this is the Yasutakes, Grandma and Grandpa Yasutake. That's my dad, there's Uncle Tom. No boy. But that's what the grandparents looked like when they're older. You know they're living up in Andersonville. It's probably the table. They only have the one big table where we had the big New Years spread. So my mom and dad's wedding picture, that's what they looked like. And then this is how grandma and grandpa Saito looked like we were growing up. So that's my mom, dad, me, my brother, my little sister that's Aunty Yanny and my youngest sisters and born yet. And so Auntie nanny must not be married yet cause otherwise Uncle Kenneth would be in the picture too. So anyway, that's what they look like growing up. You see he's got that bald head! We were just fascinated by that. We just remember rubbing it. We just thought it was. So, I don't know. We're fascinated. We were a little in back and see little kids here. AT: 00:49:12 And, sorry, did you say this was Hyde Park or Andersonville KY: 00:49:14 No, no, no this was was their house. AT: 00:49:16 Andersonville. KY: 00:49:16 No, this is Newport. AT: 00:49:19 Oh, okay. So this is your mom's, mom's side. KY: 00:49:22 Saito, this is my mom's AT: 00:49:24 Oh right, and this one. KY: 00:49:24 So cause I recognize this painting I saw this was a Saito house. Grandma had like french impressionist paintings, like Renoir paintings and stuff on the wall, which now that i think about it was kind of odd. But anyway, so that's, that's how they, that's how I remember them. AT: 00:49:44 Okay, great. Yeah, we'll have to capture some of those. Um, and then if you, KY: 00:49:52 These i'll scan by just one to show you. My mom and her like the interview and all her comments about, you know, and this, she's going through the scrapbook. I mean there was a scrap, but that's where all these pictures got pulled out from. But she's actually flipping through the script talking about things. And so you've got all her comments when she's doing like you'll know pretty outspoken. That was her way. And then you know, I just her copies. AT: 00:50:21 Okay. KY: 00:50:22 Sorry. AT: 00:50:23 That's ok KY: 00:50:23 I don't know any other families, you know I've asked people. But we got all these documents, they have handwritten notes and stuff. AT: 00:50:30 Yeah, AT: 00:50:30 it's like the uh, after the war, a lot of documents were like, I don't know what, went on to uh, computerized records. But of course they never do like interview notes. AT: 00:50:44 Right. KY: 00:50:44 So if you go on Google you can find people and it's helpful, you know, the information you know like how they were, when they entered camp and moving where, but you don't get any of this stuff was nobody ever sat down and wrote all these notes about them. So, AT: 00:51:00 Yeah, and actually, um KY: 00:51:02 So like that was the stuff about Uncle Tom them though, you know the notes stuff. You know Interview notes about mom "worked with caucasian and mixed with caucasian" "neat appearance" stuff. There's a whole bunch of other stuff too. I just wanted to show you. AT: 00:51:20 Thank you for bringing these KY: 00:51:21 These are all in that box too. But they made the decision here not to put any of this stuff in the exhibit. So I mean I guess from an artistic standpoint it doesn't look like anything. In fact, most people don't stand there, read this stuff anyway, but. AT: 00:51:37 And then these are, these are pretty fascinating. KY: 00:51:39 Yeah, that's what I thought too. So I was really surprised. And I thought, oh well. AT: 00:51:44 Well nd um, if you have a few more minutes, I'd love to talk to you a little bit more. KY: 00:51:47 Sure. AT: 00:51:47 About, all of this. KY: 00:51:51 Sure, yeah. Oh I just bought the, completely separate thing. Wednesday November 2nd, where did they get some of this weird stuff? You know, I mean, this doesn't do anybody, any service: Number people who survived the camp 60,000 less. It looks like a death camp. They come up with crap like that. I thought this was nobody a service. AT: 00:52:28 Interesting. KY: 00:52:29 It makes the whole thing look suspicious now. I mean, Doesn't look like a death camp under 120,000 going in 60,000 coming out. AT: 00:52:38 Yeah, that's not clear KY: 00:52:38 That's terrible. I saw that at the time and I just thought let it go. It's too late. It's like alright, they've already handled that out. So I'm assuming at least nobody except the people who were at the show. And it was a very rainy night. So not that many people were there, but I thought, Oh well, I don't know where it came from, but not good. Somebody needs to fact check stuff a little bit. AT: 00:53:07 Yeah. KY: 00:53:07 Before this stuff goes out AT: 00:53:09 I'll definitely, I'm happy and willing to look into that cause it's strange. KY: 00:53:17 Um, well that's the problem with handouts people do on their own. AT: 00:53:20 Sure. KY: 00:53:20 You never know what they're going to put on it. AT: 00:53:24 Um, well just, just to start off the bat, um, I would love to hear from you a little bit more about the process of, um, kind of putting this piece together, um, that you came up with for today. Um, just because you did such a great job of capturing, you know, your family story in writing and I'm wondering is this something you've been working on or KY: 00:53:54 I had a different document, much shorter, but also with a different focus that I put together in two weeks back in April. Because originally, you know, when I talked to your dad he said, well you know, I mean, I said I've got, nobody had seen it. They had no idea what I was talking about. He said, well you know you can send us, you know, why don't you scan some things and write a description of it. And I th- I started doing it and I thought it's going to take longer to do that, you know, than it is just to tell a story. And I didn't know what documents they were going to use anyway. Course, I don't think he had any idea how many documents I had. So I thought a bunch of photos without a story doesn't really say anything anyway. So I thought, okay, I got to write a story. So before I go to Paris, I'm always trying to like get everything together. And I thought, Oh, here we go again. I always seem to have some major project that needs to be done. So I just sat there and started putting together a draft for what I thought they might be interested in. And then of course I had to fact check everything I'm going, Oh what year was that? A, it's like quick, you know, Googling all these things. When did the, you know, is this reasonable or not? And then I had to do that, you know, well what camp was it? Was it, you know, was it Topaz or was it Heart? We and I couldn't even remember that stuff cause we never talked about it. So I had to go through the documents and, and put them in order by date and sort of just sort of figure that stuff out. AT: 00:55:35 So a lot of this, it sounds like was very recent. KY: 00:55:39 Yeah. Yeah. It's like the bare bones in the first document, which was about only a couple pages long, was an April. And that's the document that I sent to Mike Takada who then passed it on to Ryan Yokota. And so when I walked in with the box, I said, okay, here's the story. And everybody kept saying, ah, you know, we don't, we don't need this, yes. It's like Alphawood told us we're not going to need personal stuff until later in the year and you'll be back from Paris then. And I said, Oh, you know, just take it all anyway. I said, because if I know if I were going to mount an exhibit, I would at least want to know what was available to me, can't hurt. So I basically said, here, just take it. Ah, okay. And put it away in the box. I mean, in a, Ryan's, uh, room in a, in a locked filing cabinet. So where it stayed until I surprise of all surprises in June, a weeks before the exhibition open, I get email from everybody saying we changed our mind, we changed our mind. We decided we can't just go with the big pictures on the wall. We have to have some personal stuff too. Can we use this? Uh, it was like, "wah!" If I had known this, I would have like written on the backs of photos and things like who people were. And so Rich [Cayan?] was literally like scanning things, sending me things saying, "is this your dad?" "No, it's his brother," you know? "Is this your mom?" "No, it's some total stranger," I've no idea who this is, so we had, we had a bunch of that stuff. So AT: 00:57:21 As far as the, um, you had mentioned that you inherited the box of documents. Um, ten years ago KY: 00:57:30 I got it about 10 years ago and I just kinda looked through them then said, ok. But I hadn't actually sat there and read through it, so I put it away and I really hadn't thought about it. I think in the last 10 years I might've gone to that box once and it was for a completely different reason. So it just sat there and I didn't think about it until I ran into Mike at the screening of the Tule Lake movie and suddenly said, Oh, so actually the first thing, one of the first things I had to do was go get my mom's scrapbook back because it had been sitting at Auntie Nannies for years. I had left it there after I interviewed her because she liked looking at it. So we just left it on the dining room table there. And at some point or another had gotten put away somewhere, we didn't know where. And so my poor cousin Lauren was looking through the whole box trying to find it, you know, and said l gotta have the scrapbook gotta have the scrapbook, I'm getting ready to leave for Paris. So she found it. So that's how we got all this stuff. So I had just the bare bones at that point of what I was gonna do. And then when I realized I was going to do the interview, when I, I mean I had told you, it had always, sort of been my intention to do an interview, but I thought, "Ehh, ehh, ehh, yeah, yeah, yeah." And I kinda kept putting it off, but then I started attending the share your story sessions here, Saturdays and listening to what other people said and how they did it and getting ideas. And so I thought, well, why not? So I just sat down and a couple of days ago basically just wrote this, I used as sort of the bare bones, the information I'd already like found out in April for the first draft, the one that I'd sent to Tony and you know, Ryan and everybody at a, you know, Alphawood and JAC they, they had seen that, but it didn't have as much stuff because I didn't know if they were in fact gonna use any of my parents' stuff. And I didn't have time to write anything longer. So I pretty much just started this, uh, Tuesday, Tuesday. I started Tuesday, thought I'd be completely done, uh, didn't finish and kept adding things and rearranging things and AT: 00:59:54 Well, it's, it's great and it's definitely a valuable resource to have. Um, so, and one thing that has been coming a lot in these conversations and interviews with folks and as I'm sure you know with sharing stories as well, um, a lot of, uh, Sansei and even Yonsei have kind of described this process of learning about their family's story as piecing together. Just like doing a, making a puzzle, you know, trying to piece things together. KY: 01:00:30 It's lot of missing pieces! AT: 01:00:32 Right. And yeah I think that's a very [inaudible]. KY: 01:00:32 And sometimes pieces belong to a different puzzle. You're looking at a guy, I don't think this is right. You know, they start getting confused and you're hearing somebody else's story or the right story with the wrong people or something where you go [shakes head] "Can't be, this can't be." AT: 01:00:47 And I'm wondering if you can, um, tell me a little bit about, um, your own journey of learning your family's story, starting with, um, whatever you heard as a child. Did your family, you said that your family didn't, really talk about it. KY: 01:01:04 They didn't really talk about it. So almost most of what I've learned, I've learned really, really, really recently or like I found up the stuff that we had heard as a child wasn't completely correct. So you never know like what a, what to trust and not to trust. I mean, we all thought my dad had a medical deferment, you know, but then I've got his, uh, included in the box, the famous, infamous docs, all his draft cards. He'd saved them all. And so you can flip through them and it's like a, he had the same classification that every other Nisei had. You know, where the, what is it, the foreign, the alien thing, I forget. Anyway. AT: 01:01:52 The 4C? KY: 01:01:52 Yeah, 4C. Yeah, it's like he wasn't even there for military deferment. Then all of a sudden he goes, well, Hey. And it was like, "hmm", perhaps then, that's why he sent the letter to MIS rather than being, you know, in the army. AT: 01:02:06 And what, can you describe what that experience has been like of kind of doing this investigative work? Um, you know, very recently, um, has anything surprised you? KY: 01:02:22 Oh, all sorts of things have surprise me, you know, like that, but I haven't gotten into this as much as I could. I mean, I know other people really, you know, they go into ancestry.com and they really go into that stuff and in fact Rich Cayan and emailed me the boat records, you know, the ship records he found from grandpa first coming over. I mean, we'd never seen those documents, but you know, he knew how to do this as a professional historian, whereas I just kind of stumbled into this and my information is all like what you can get free on Google. And there's so much info, misinformation there too. I mean, half the stuff, my, the names are completely misspelled. It's like, no wonder you can't find anything. AT: 01:03:12 Um, one thing I wanted to ask you about, because like you mentioned, it's very unusual for families to have a lot of the documents that were in that box that your family had. Um, so whether it's the FBI notes or, um, you know, the written letters and things like that, um, you, you mentioned in your piece, like your father didn't see a piece of paper he didn't like, and I was just wondering if you can tell me more about what it was about. Was it mostly your father who was keeping documents? KY: 01:03:49 My mom threw out everything. She was one of those, "Ehhh, you know, get rid of it, get rid of it." My dad was the opposite. He was a pack rat. He was a bit of a hoarder. So he had paper everywhere, you know, newspapers stacked up to here. Books and books and books everywhere. And he also, I mean, when we had to go through his apartment after he died, I mean, Oh my God, you would not believe how much crap, the- we had to have a bonfire and burn stuff, you know, 25 year old bills, everything. But he had also, of course, put all this stuff somewhere and there was a big trunk that nobody ever went to. And I think that might've been where my, I mean I didn't find the trunk, but you know my either my brother or sisters or my friend, best friend Rosie who had been, was helping and she was taking care of dad at the time. Somebody found this box of documents. So I'd never seen it until then. AT: 01:04:50 What was it about your dad? Did he ever give reason or explanation for holding on to things? KY: 01:04:57 No, but I have heard, and I think it's probably true that a lot of older people tend to hoard, but especially a lot of that generation of Japanese have a hoarding problem and it's because they had to get rid of everything they owned. You know, they could only take with them what they could carry and on some level I think that kind of traumatized them. So they kept everything and like my dad they, he wouldn't move. I mean he stayed in that same apartment in Hyde Park his whole life. We tried to get him to move. His family said, come up here, you know, they're on the North side. Come up here near us wouldn't move, wouldn't move. He just got, they get very, very set in their ways so he wouldn't change. He took a job way back when we were kids and he stayed at that same company his whole life. He was still working in his seventies he would, he'd still be there except the company went out of business. AT: 01:06:01 What company was that? KY: 01:06:01 It was the national paint and lacquer company. He was paid almost nothing. People kept telling him, you can do better leave, leave, you know, come and he just wouldn't do it. I think he was just terrified. I think, you know, a lot of Japanese had had that fear that nobody was going to hire them. And I think a lot of them were told that too. You know, you're lucky you have a job at all. And being, I mean it must be terrifying, I think for anybody to be responsible, you know, for a wife and four kids. And my mom wasn't working at the time, so I just think he wasn't taking any chances. So he tended to just stay with what he had and not change it. And kept himself very much. So even, you know, his own family, people, he knew. Nobody. nobody really knew him very well. His best friends, I don't, I'm not sure, but I don't think even as best friends knew his inner most thoughts. I think he just wasn't in touch with them. He chose not to be or, or he wasn't able to. That's why it was really hard to have a conversation with him. He didn't converse. You could ask them a direct question and he would answer it. He went to Japan like back in the 80s by himself and I remember he came back to Japan and I said, Aw, so how was it? How is Japan? And he said, fine. Would you like to elaborate on that? I mean, you have to like ask him questions and he would answer, but very succinctly, you know, he never just talked. AT: 01:07:35 How did your mom compare? KY: 01:07:37 Oh, she was totally the opposite. I have no idea how they got together. They were complete opposites. She, I'm sorry she's not alive. She would have been great for this interview. She was a talker, she was opinionated and she was very outgoing, so she would've done a great interview. AT: 01:07:57 And, um. I know you said that growing up she didn't really talk about it, but it sounds like in the 80s and around redress, you know, you said that she had become more outspoken about it. KY: 01:08:08 Yeah. But not to the family. She was outspoken to everybody else she knew, but I never talked to her about it. She'd send us these, you know, kind of like we'd get things in the mail. "Oh I saw this" and who, she typed a little comments at the top just a little bit. I never had a conversation with her about it. Now maybe she would have been willing, but it takes two sides to be willing. It's like they have to be ready to talk and you have to be ready to accept. And it just didn't work out ever. So I don't know that, I mean I'll, I'll have to ask my brother and sisters if any of them ever had talks with mom and maybe they had some, but I don't think any of us really knew. But she was perfectly happy to tell everybody else. AT: 01:08:58 So when she was sending those to you, um, at the time. Did you not feel ready to have that conversation? KY: 01:09:07 No. So I don't, like I said, I'm not sure. I'll have to ask my brothers and sisters if any of them did. I think she talked a little bit more like with my brother who was, you know, much more outgoing person than this and that they were, they were very close and my brother has in fact been to Medford to, you know, and visited the Oregon Historical Society there. And looked at the family records and things like that. So I'm sure he would've been a good person to talk to. But I don't know if he did either because he was living at the time, he wasn't in Chicago. The norm. I've always, I'm hearing from all these Saturday, uh, share your stories thing is that generally people assume that, well not assume necessarily, but the most comfortable thing is for the grandchild to interview the grandparents. Well, my parents were so much older that uh, when my mom died, for example, my nieces, they were little kids. I mean the oldest one was only five. So it was, you know, it just didn't work out that way. Their parents were old, my parents were old, or there was just too, too many years between the generations. So it didn't happen. So Auntie Nanny has been the stand-in, you know, my mom's sister who's 98 and still alive. My mom would be a hundred if she were still alive and Auntie Nanny's great, but she's beginning to get forgetful. As you saw, you met her here at the exhibit. And her take on life is just very, very, very radically different from my moms. So I'm sure my mom would've said very different things than what I hear from Auntie Nanny. AT: 01:10:52 Do you think that's an age thing or? KY: 01:10:56 From- Yep. From what I heard, they were always like that from the time they were kids. Auntie has always just been super, super positive. Some people are just like that. She just always looks at life and says, I'd rather look at the good things. So that's just true. That was her nature before any of this happened. This isn't, you know, like a defense mechanism that she, uh, she learned to have. AT: 01:11:26 Um, and uh. So I'd love to talk a little bit about your experiences in Chicago. Um, but one thing I'm curious about is, um, when did you, do you remember when you first heard of camp or knew about it? KY: 01:11:47 I think we always knew about it. I mean, when we were really young, we knew about it partly because, you know, I mean, mom said you kids need to know about it, even though she didn't go into details. So we knew about it. And then back in the old days, I mean, I don't know if they still do it, but in high school in Chicago, they used to talk about the internment that was taught. I don't know if it still is or not. AT: 01:12:16 Um, can you tell me a little more about that? Was it an elaborate unit or was it kind of? KY: 01:12:20 No, no, it's just kind of the whole, you know, I mean, when they in you're in history class or whatever U S history and they get to the part where they're talking about World War II and this and that. And they mentioned, you know, the fact that while at least in the Chicago history books, I mean they probably don't mention it at all, you know, in other States. But we got to that part and you know, I of course it didn't say anything, but the girl in front of me who was a friend of mine turned around and looked to me and she whispered, "Did that happened to your family too?" I said [knods] and she went [nods], you know, and went back, cause class was going. And that was the end of it. AT: 01:13:02 But, so that was a, another Japanese American friend? KY: 01:13:06 No, she was black! She was African American. So, yeah, but she didn't, but a lot of, you keep finding more and more people who don't know about it. I had Alphawood here when they're having tours, like I'll sometimes kind of like listened to people's comments. I pretend like I don't know anything about what's going on and I'll sort of just listen in and, and I keep hearing that. I didn't know about this, oh I didn't know about that. And I'm just wondering, I guess that they don't teach that stuff anymore. AT: 01:13:38 And um, so you went to high school in Hyde Park? KY: 01:13:44 I went to Hyde Park high for the first two years and then I transferred up to Senn. So I graduated from Senn High school, which is up on the North side near Bryn, the Bryn Mawr L stop. AT: 01:13:55 And so were you commuting from Hyde Park? Or, KY: 01:13:57 Ah, yes. Yes. That was an hour and a half each way. That was not easy. AT: 01:14:03 Um, and what, and what was the reason for the transfer? KY: 01:14:09 Hyde Park? Hyde Park High School is not actually in Hyde Park, it's in Englewood. It was very, very dangerous. Uh, at the time that I was going there, Kenwood High School had not been built yet. So my two younger sisters went to Kenwood, but my brother and I went to Hyde Park High and it was the height of the gang wars between the Blackstone Rangers and the Disciples. So it was not a safe place to be. The only good thing there about being Japanese was there was so few of us, nobody ever bothered with us. We never got picked on. AT: 01:14:49 Um, that was something else I wanted to ask. Um, when you were growing up in Hyde Park, um, did you have Japanese American friends or was there a community there? KY: 01:15:00 Oh yeah, there was a community there. Uh, we had some Japanese friends for the simple reason that our next door neighbors were Japanese. So just there were like three houses in a row and we had, uh, two families like right next to us. And so, and you know, when you have kids the same age and everybody's going to Ray School. So we used to play with the kids every day. And then we had, you know, like just one block over the Matayoshi family. Of course, Rocky Matayoshi being one of the most famous and highly decorated 442nd veterans. Uh, I mean there's footage on YouTube and whatever, of president Obama will putting the medal around his neck and Rocky's and, uh, Elsie and the Matayoshi kids were just a block away and we grew up with their kids too. So there was always, you know, enough people, it wasn't a Japanese community, but if you grew up in Hyde Park, there are enough Japanese that you know who everybody is, even if you're not playing with them, you know, I mean, you just, you know who they are and all the moms knew each other and, and the moms would sort of do little coffee klatches here and there. AT: 01:16:11 And you mentioned that, um, you were going to a Unitarian Church. KY: 01:16:18 Yeah. AT: 01:16:18 And so no Japanese school or anything like that? KY: 01:16:21 No. AT: 01:16:21 No girl scouts. Um, did you do any other activities outside of school growing up? KY: 01:16:27 Well, with the Unitarian Church that we had the, it was a Chicago Children's Choir at the time. It's now, no, actually it's a Chicago children's choir now, but, but when I was, there used to be the first Unitarian Church choir, so we had choir practice a couple times a week. And then, uh, for the high school level they had something called LRY, It was like Liberal Religious Youth. And that was like the high school group from the church. And uh, the Unitarian church was very progressive. They were among the first churches in Chicago to have an integrated congregation. And so not only did they have people from different races there, they uh, I remember when I was growing up there and going to church in the 50s, I think half the congregation were Jewish. They were, you know, liberal Jewish because their attitude was, well, they didn't, Unitarians didn't ask you to believe anything, you couldn't get around. It was very, it was, people would say things like, it's the closest thing you can get to atheism. So it was the liberal community. Hyde Park was liberal, the church was liberal. So we did the church stuff. Uh, what else did we do? I, uh, girl, I did campfire girls. I think my brother might've done, uh, Boy Scouts, but this was the Hyde Park groups. And so it was mostly kids that we went to Ray School with. So there were no all Japanese things that we did. AT: 01:17:55 And what were the at the time, the general demographics of Hyde Park at that, in the fifties and sixties? KY: 01:18:02 I don't know. I would have to look that up. Uh, certainly I would say it was mostly white, especially like in the area immediately around the University of Chicago because so many professors lived there with their kids. There was some African Americans, there were not many Hispanics back then at the time. And most of the Asians living in Hyde Park were Japanese Americans. They weren't Chinese, some were Chinese, but it was not, not as many as now. You'd go to Hyde Park. Now it has a much higher concentration of Chinese than Japanese. AT: 01:18:39 And do you remember any, um, were there any Japanese American, uh, businesses or restaurants or grocery stores or anything? KY: 01:18:49 Franklin Food Market on, I think 55th Street was the only Japanese grocery store. But they were really expensive. We thought. Cause Japanese food's expensive, it all, has to be imported. And of course things like sashimi are really expensive and we didn't grow up eating Japanese food. That's something I didn't mention either. My mom said Japanese food takes too long to prepare. I'm not messing around with this. So we ate meatloaf and spaghetti just like everybody else. She never cooked Japanese food. And so the only time we got to really eat it was at the grandparents because I think they cooked it every day. Probably three meals a day. But mom didn't do it once in awhile, you know, some teriyaki or something real simple. But that was it. So Franklin Food store. Do I remember any other Japanese food? Japanese places in Hyde Park? I don't think so. That's the only one that springs to mind. AT: 01:19:49 Or maybe, um, Edgewater or, I don't know if Senn is Edgewater technically. KY: 01:19:55 Oh, well when you get up to the North Side, there used to be like Star Market on Clark Street, you know, uh, near, oh what was, oh, probably not too far from where my grandparents lived. But that was, that's Lakeview, that wasn't Andersonville sorry. It was Lakeview and that was way too far for us. We didn't have a car. So we couldn't have gotten up there, but Star Market, Star Market was there until what, nineties or something. They're, they're pretty long. And of course, you know, like when my, uh, when everybody first came out to Chicago around Clark and Division area, there were Japanese grocery stores and one of the grocery stores was Sun Grocery, which was owned by the Yahiro family. And that's where Auntie Nanny met her husband, Kenneth Yahiro who I think was, I think at the time, might've been helping his parents out in the store. It was a Japanese grocery store. So I think that's where they met. Of course Uncle Kenneth and went on to IIT and all that other stuff, you know, became a partner who, you know, like they created their own electronics company, which is still operating, but that, I think he was helping out in the grocery store and she met him. AT: 01:21:12 Do you know when they closed that store? That family KY: 01:21:14 Oh no, probably when you know when grandma and grandpa, Yahiro died is my guess. It's been gone a long time. AT: 01:21:22 And so it was the. KY: 01:21:23 Not store, sorry sun, Sun Grocery was the name of it. AT: 01:21:29 And it was the Saitos that first came to Clark and Division. Is that right? KY: 01:21:33 My mom was there. She was the first one because that's where she was living when she was going to the Art Institute. She's got, I've seen documents, letters and whatnot with her addresses 1039 S Lasalle. So that's where she was first living. And then she told Auntie Nanny, her sister to come out to Chicago because she said it's better out here than the West coast. C'mon out here. So Auntie Nanny decided to come out too. And she said, my mom like sewed her a special dress, so she has something to wear on her trip to Chicago. So they were living there too. I think it was like an apartment building or something like that. I mean it wasn't, they weren't all living in her apartment. There were other Japanese people there. And then the grandparents came out. And so that was originally where they all were, was 1039 S Lasalle Street to my knowledge. AT: 01:22:30 Do you have any other information about, um, your parents' experiences of first, like initially coming to Chicago? Did they ever talk about that with you? KY: 01:22:43 No, not really. I'm sure it must've been a shock. I know any number of levels. Uh, my mom's family, of course, coming from Medford, Oregon, you know, population less than 20,000 even now it's still a pretty small city, although, you know, it's grown quite a bit since then. But coming from that to Chicago was, you know, just completely something they'd never experienced. And my dad's side was from Sacramento, which is of course a big city, but they come from the Japan town part of Sacramento and they wound up on the South Side of Chicago, which was completely different from everything that they had, you know, like known before. So I'm sure people had culture shock coming to Chicago. AT: 01:23:32 And I think you mentioned your mom eventually picked up work. After being in Chicago, is that right? KY: 01:23:37 Oh she was? Yeah. I mean, what was she doing? I don't remember. It's like her earliest jobs, but she wound up after she got married and had kids, you know, and we'd grown up and some point or another, she decided to go work at the Unitarian church. So she was at the Unitarian church. Wo- working in the office for like a decade or something. She was there until, you know, until her, the end of her life. So she really liked it there. So. AT: 01:24:08 And um, KY: 01:24:11 I know like Auntie Nanny was an executive secretary for awhile before she got married, but I'm not sure about the details of that. I just remember she was an executive secretary. She'd taken like secretarial classes or something. And she said she didn't want to be a take care of anybody's kids or do anything like that. So, but then when she got married and moved to Park Ridge, that was the end of her short career. I know grandpa and grandma worked briefly too when they came to Chicago. Grandpa Saito was originally doing some kind of assembly line work, but at that point, you know he's, he's pretty old. He was in his sixties and he'd always been working for himself. And so after I think not very long, he quit. He said, I'm too old to start over again. And Grandma Saito was working with a bunch of other Japanese ladies at a millinery store. They were, you know, back in the old days when proper ladies all wore hats. So they were putting together all the little frou frou that you put on fancy hats, the kind that are sold on Michigan Avenue that people were back then. So she liked that because you know, it was her and a bunch of them, the, you know, issei ladies all all doing that job. AT: 01:25:35 Do you know where they did that? KY: 01:25:36 No, I don't. Unfortunately, I was just, I remember being told that, well, I'm sure too, they were not working in the store. You know, there was some probably some little room off somewhere where they all did it. But I was told that the hats were pretty fancy hats that were sold at better stores in Chicago. So that's all I know about it. I can try to ask Auntie Nanny, I think I've asked her before, but she doesn't really remember any other than the fact that it was, it was millinery work. AT: 01:26:07 Hmm. And um, and then for both, um, the Saitos and the Yasutakes. Um, do you know about, um, where the, the Yasutakes were they going to, um, Buddhist church? KY: 01:26:25 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. AT: 01:26:29 And where were they affiliated? KY: 01:26:29 I think originally a Buddhist temple up on Leland and then later, uh, Midwest Buddhist temple here. Yeah. Now they, they remained devout Buddhists their whole lives. So I think we were the only Unitarians in the bunch and I'm sure had, we moved with my dad's side of the family, which was what they wanted. Ya know, they wanted us to, they wanted to buy a bigger house and all of us live together. I would have had a totally different upbringing than I did living in Hyde Park, but my mom did not want to do that. So AT: 01:27:09 Can you explain a little bit more what, um, in what ways would it be so different if you had gone with the Yasutakes on the North side. KY: 01:27:17 They were very traditional. That drove my mom nuts. She was way too independent, too outspoken, too Americanized. She was not your typical nisei wife. Uh, I frankly don't think, uh, grandma and grandpa approved of her for very much, but you know, that's it. AT: 01:27:42 Um, I also wanted to be sure to ask about, um, so grandma's Saito. She very passionately wanted to, um, KY: 01:27:57 Be an American citizen. Yeah. AT: 01:27:59 I wanted to ask you a little bit more about that. Was that, um, was that a desire that you kind of always knew about or the family? KY: 01:28:11 Yeah, just because Auntie Nanny would always talk about it, you know, so actually I think I knew about the citizenship from my mom too, but since I see Auntie Nanny still, she always, she brings that up. It's sort of one of the recurring things that she talks about. You know, whenever I ask questions about Grandma, she'll, she'll always kind of go back to that and say, Grandma always said, you know, be proud to be Americans. This is the best country in the world. So she, she's still, you know, it made a big impression on her and so she always brings it up. So, it's one, it's one of Auntie Nannies, like, themes. AT: 01:28:53 Um, how do you respond to that? Does that, KY: 01:28:57 It surprises me a little. I mean, just because I'm, I'm not sure if, if I had been through everything they'd been through that I would feel that way. But you know, what can I say? I mean, I think it's, maybe she was optimistic the same way Auntie Nanny's optimistic. I don't know. I mean, certainly she wasn't bitter. AT: 01:29:26 Um, let's see. Were there any other activities you could think of that either, um, side your grandparents were involved in besides church or anything? KY: 01:29:44 I don't know. At that point they were pretty old. You know, they were in their seventies and living, you know like Grandma Yastake and Grandpa Yasutake you're living with the whole Yasutake clan. So I'm not sure they went out a lot or anything like that. You know what I mean? Basically your life's your family. So I don't, you know, and they're involved, I'm sure with some stuff with the Buddhist temple and all, but they're pretty old at that point and I think they, I get the feeling that they kind of stayed at home a lot. There was no Japanese community per e up in the Andersonville area where they lived. I mean, I'm sure there was the occasional, you know, Japanese family here and there, but it wasn't like Japantown in Sacramento where they could go out and walk into any store and talk to people because they didn't speak English. So that really meant that every time they had to deal with the outer world, they had to go through with one of their kids as a translator. So I think that limited things. Plus grandma being a traditional issei a housewife, uh, thought she had to make three meals a day for everybody. And uh, as my mom said it was like a restaurant, she would ask, you know this son, "what do you want to eat?" I mean, "what do you," and she'd cook! Eh she was a great cook but she was in the kitchen the whole time. So I don't know when she had enough time to go do anything else except cook. I'm hoping she liked cooking cause that's what I remember her doing all the time. AT: 01:31:15 And you had cousins who lived in that. KY: 01:31:17 Yup. AT: 01:31:18 In that building? KY: 01:31:18 Yup. All of them. It's like one cousin up on the top floor. That's Corky. Three on the middle floor. So we've got Brucey, Carol, Corey, bottom floor, Sandy and Laurie and then the grandparents. So I'm sure they, my cousins, even if they don't speak Japanese per se, they understand it on some level because how can you not, the grandparents only spoke Japanese. So if you wanted to come, you know, like communicate with them at all. You had to know. And just kinda hearing that, you know, around you and they had that big building and they left all their backdoors open. And so people, you know, they just come up and down on the back steps and you know, they'd be sitting there and all of a sudden an uncle shows up or an aunt shows up and they were there, you know, it was kind of a great big house and they all pretty much lived together. So they were much, much more traditionally Japanese that way. They are exposed to that. And, and I know they were, you know, they were Buddhists so some of them practicing Buddhists and they had shrines in their home, which of course we did not, stuff like that. So I mean I, I don't see my mom being able to get by in a situation like that, especially when she was always saying things like, "Grandma thinks she's running a rest stop. I'm not doing that." So she didn't, didn't get along with that. And Grandpa Yasutake from what I remember, every time I saw him, he was sitting in front of a TV watching sports games. Even if he didn't speak English, he could watch baseball or whatever and you know, follow the games. And so when we'd go there, of course, I mean this happens in every family, everywhere on holidays, all the men are sitting around watching sports on TV and the women are all sitting in the kitchen having coffee and chatting. And that's, that happened there too. The only thing I remember that was different was that the men would play go instead of poker, you know, I mean, sorry not go, hana! They'd play hana, not so they'd be sitting there including my dad. All playing hana afterwards. But that was, you know, that was the only thing kind of, and the food that made a different from any other holiday in America anywhere. AT: 01:33:37 Um, I also wanted to ask you about, um, the Fukuoka picnic. Um, how many people would go to that and who was organizing it? If you can remember KY: 01:33:51 It was called Fukuoka, it was like, uh, Fukuoka Kenjikai is like an organization. So I don't know who the old guys were. Actually, uh, Karen [Kana-o?], You might ask her, she might know, but there are, there was the whole organization there, you know, and every year they had this big picnic, and it was big. A lot of people that I never saw any other time except at that picnic would come up. Everybody came to that. It was really wonderful, I think especially wonderful for the isseis because at that point there wasn't a, you know, tight Japanese community per se. Everybody kind of, you know, spread out amongst Chicago. And so the isseis only saw their own families. So this was great. You know, they get to visit with their old friends again and that kind of stuff. So it was, it was really a lot of fun. I mean I remember it being a lot of fun and they had, they had games and the games were fun too. Games for the, an uh races for the kids where, you know, involved a lot of running, you know, the usual kind of run up here and turn around and come back. And I mean they were easy. You'd win the prizes, but they had, by age, races for the kids, races for the niseis. And then you'd get everybody's moms and aunties running around doing stuff. And then the funniest one was the ones where they would include the isseis. They were very smart about how they did that. So at the end of the line, they'd have like a bowl with little like uncooked beans, raw beans, they're really like shiny and slippery, and those real pointy chopsticks, the ones that you can't pick anything up with? And you had to get run down to the end of the line and then transfer like let's say 10 beans into a different bowl and then run back. So of course, you know the nisei women would go charging down there and then you'd see them doing that and the issei women were kind of, you know, like trudging, they're really cute, you know, they're old, they're kind of trudging down there, but then they get to the end of the line, go [motions quickly] in two seconds. They'd like cleaned out the bowl and then trudge back. So it wound up being kind of equal. But anyway, it was a lot of fun. I remember that. And it was, they were very Japanese things that way, you know? I mean, who else is gonna have a race with chopsticks and, and beans. AT: 01:36:14 And did you, throughout your life, did you continue attending those picnics or the new year celebration? KY: 01:36:21 The new year celebrations? Uh, yeah, until, you know, we well, moved out, when I moved down the house, we stopped doing that. And I don't know when they stopped the Fukuoka Kenjikai stuff. So I don't know. Basically once we graduated high school, I mean, I kinda went my own way, so I'm not sure how long these things continue. I just know I didn't continue with them. I imagine, I'm sure grandma was having those new years spreads than you know, until she died because she lived to like 85 as long as she could cook, you know, it's like, I'm sure at some point her health didn't really allow it anymore. But she had a lot of help from all of the aunties and uncles. Everybody got inducted into helping out, including the men. So usually like the men would be out doing the grilling. And then even I remember like my uncle Yutaka complaining that she had assigned him to like grate gobo which turns your hands black. So she had everybody working. AT: 01:37:23 And so we can be wrapping up. But before we do, I want to just ask you, um, so you've, um, you've done a lot of looking into your, your family's story and, and their past. Um, and I know I've, I've seen you in the gallery number of times. So one thing that I just want to ask you about is, um, why do you, why is this story so important and, um, what are some of the lessons that need to be learned from it? KY: 01:38:18 Well, I think everybody knows their family is important. It's just only when it gets down to the last members of the family still being alive, that you realize you've probably waited too long and you better do it now while you still can. Even though it's in many ways already too late. Because the people who know, you know, the best what actually happened are gone. But at least there are a couple people left who I can sort of bounce things off of and say, does that sound familiar? So I just, I probably would not have done this had I not met Mike Takada, you know, at the Tule Lake movie and gotten this, uh sorry, gotten this stuff all ready for the exhibition. I probably wouldn't have done it. I needed some, something to prod me. So I will actually probably finish it out a little bit more because having now seen, uh, what other people did, you know, for example, and [Shi?] Majima talking about how she did her whole family history and uh, what's his name from Densho organization, talking about putting all this stuff together online. I thought, well yeah, maybe I should do that too. Cause if I don't do it, who will? So I'll, I'll try to finish out a little bit more of it. I mean a lot of these, these people are gone now. And I figure if I don't, and that's part of why I put so many names in, as I was talking like Grandpa [Lewin?] Fuji, nobody else will.They have no kids. So it's sort of like, okay, you know, they had their place in our family history. Let's, let's put them in too. AT: 01:40:21 And do you have any, um, any hopes for just future generations more generally? Or if you could leave some kind of legacy or, um, or message behind, um, what's something that you want to leave? KY: 01:40:42 Well, only in the message, don't wait too long! But everybody, I've seen at the Saturday story, you know, share your stories. Who said that? I can only reiterate that message. So many of us waited too long. So, but even if you have waited too long, it's like get what you have, get what you have out there. And yeah, we can say we should have asked earlier, and it's true. We should have asked earlier, but it is what it is. And rather than just saying, Oh well it's, you know, like, well let's, let's do our piece to do what we can. So I don't really know. I mean, I've got two nieces there, that's all. It's like my sisters didn't have kids, I didn't have kids. My brother has two daughters, so I don't know if they're interested or not. I really don't know. I know my brother's interested, so maybe when they get older they will get interested. Sometimes that happens. You have to get to a certain age where you defined you're interested. So possibly that will happen with them and even if not, it's there for anybody else who is interested, but sometimes it takes until you get very old to get interested in . AT: 01:42:02 Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you'd like to add or that, um, I might have missed. KY: 01:42:09 No, I think I've said already quite a bit, so... AT: 01:42:12 Thank you so much for coming in. KY: 01:42:16 Well thank you. Thank you for having me. And like I said, thanks to Alphawood and JASC too. So thanks so much Anna. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YasutakeKris20171103.xml YasutakeKris20171103.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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9500
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Kris
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YasutakeKris20171103.xml
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Yasutake, Kris (11/3/2017)
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2017-11-03
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Series: Then They Came for Me
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Doi, Tonko
Interview Keyword
Boyle Heights
Los Angeles
Yokohama
Sun-Maid Raisin Company
Rafu Shimpo
Soshin Jyogakko
Kibei
Santa Anita
Rohwer
Nisei
Sansei
Tule Lake
Cincinnati
Redress
Lakeview High School
Church of Christ Presbyterian
Fujinkai
Social clubs
Chicago Nisei Athletic Association
Cleaners
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/3/2019 Doi, Tonko (9/3/2019) 1:43:16 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Boyle Heights Los Angeles Yokohama Sun-Maid Raisin Company Rafu Shimpo Soshin Jyogakko Kibei Santa Anita Rohwer Nisei Sansei Tule Lake Cincinnati Redress Lakeview High School Church of Christ Presbyterian Fujinkai Social clubs Chicago Nisei Athletic Association Cleaners Doi, Tonko Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/601063427/6922e10a70 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601063427?h=6922e10a70" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Toshiko (Tonko) Doi is a second-generation (Nisei) Japanese American born in the Boyle Heights neighborhood of East Los Angeles, California the day before Pearl Harbor was attacked. In this interview, she discusses her family's pre-war history, incarceration experiences at Santa Anita and Rohwer, and life in Cincinnati and later Chicago after World War II. Tonko recalls her parents' laundry/dry-cleaning business in Irving Park in North Chicago and describes her own work coordinating all-camp reunions and social club reunions for the Chicago Japanese American community. [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 This is an interview with Tonko Doi as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on September 3rd, 2019 at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Tonko Doi is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. Um, so to start, can you just state your full name? Tonko Doi: 00:00:26 My legal name is Toshiko Doi. TD: 00:00:30 And uh, where and when were you born? TD: 00:00:33 I was born on December 6th, 1941 in Los Angeles in the Boyle Heights area, which is East LA. TD: 00:00:43 Okay. Um, and so, like I mentioned to start, um, it'd be great if we could learn a little bit more about your parents' background. So, um, maybe to start, can you just tell me, um, who your parents were, their names and maybe how they ended up in Boyle Heights? TD: 00:01:02 Okay. Uh, my father's name is Shiro Marauka and um, he was born in 1904, and he was born in Shizuoka, Japan. My mother, her name is Tomoe. Her maiden name was Nakamoto and she was born in Selma, California. She is considered a Kibei Nisei. TD: 00:01:29 And um, do you have information about how your father, how and why your father, um, came to the states? TD: 00:01:37 Yes. Um, my father was born in 1904, so when he was 14 years old, that would be 1918. He came with his parents and his nine siblings, there were 10 in his family. His parents were Christian missionaries and they were sent from Japan, like reverse missionaries. You know, usually missionaries come from the United States, but in this case, the, um, Christian, uh, people, uh, hierarchy in Japan sent him to try to convert the, uh, Buddhist farmers and Buddhist people who had immigrated to, uh, California. So he and his family settled in Sacramento, California. And there was a church established there, but they needed a Japanese speaking minister. So that's where they lived. TD: 00:02:38 Do you, would you happen to know what the name of the church is? TD: 00:02:41 it was called um, Go- Meyhew Christian Church, I believe it's a baptist church. It's M-A-Y-H-E-W, Mayhew. TD: 00:02:56 And, um, and you mentioned your, your mom, uh, was from Selma, California and that she was kibei. TD: 00:03:05 Yes. TD: 00:03:06 Do you have information about, um, her family? TD: 00:03:08 I do, um, my mother's father, um, worked for Sun-Maid Raisin Company and that was I guess, uh, the base is in Fresno, California. So she and her sister, my, uh, live, were born in Selma, which is like a suburb. Uh, in 1923, uh, my grandfather was sent to Japan to open the market for Sun-Maid Raisin. So the whole family went to, uh, Yokohama. That was their first, um, office, his first office because there was a port. And, uh, during that time, 1923 was when there was a great earthquake in Yokohama. And My mother told me a story of, uh, playing with her friend and the ground opened up in front of them and her friend fell into the hole and disappeared and she never saw her again. Uh, because the port was closed, my, my grandfather, uh, they had a cow. I dunno, maybe because my mother and father, I mean my mother and her family were used to drinking milk. So my grandfather bought a cow and they, uh, lived on the, um, kind of higher, higher ground. So their home was not affected, uh, by the earthquake. AT: 00:04:34 And so how, do you know about how old your mom was when she went back? TD: 00:04:40 Yes, she was a 10 years old. She was born in 1913. AT: 00:04:45 And how long did they stay in Yokohama? TD: 00:04:49 Yokohama? Well, from Yokohama they moved to Tokyo and um, maybe they lived in Yokohama for three years or four years. And then they bought a home. My grandfather bought a home in, um, a suburban area of Tokyo called Den-en-chōfu, which, uh, now is part of Tokyo and very, uh, became a very affluent area. And that's my grandmother. I mean, I'm sorry, my Auntie, she's lived there all her life. I wa-, I mean, she was born in the United States, but she was like six years old when they went back to Japan. So her grammar school, her high school, her married years, and she just sold that house last year. So, and she's 100 years old this coming October. AT: 00:05:37 Umm. So your, your Auntie stayed. And does that mean that um, your mother and her parents came back to the states? TD: 00:05:49 No, my grandparents stayed in Japan, but now this story my mother told me, um, when was in her twenties, she became engaged and the man, what came from a similar background, he was a Nisei and his family was in California. My grandparents knew him and the family and they were introduced, you know, and so they were engaged to be married. But shortly before the marriage took place, her fiance died. He had tuberculosis. So my grandparents thought, oh, you know, Tomoe is going to be so sad. So they sent her to America to visit her brothers who never, who did not come to the United States. And so she went to, and my uncle, um, he worked for Rafu Shimpo, which was the English and Japanese paper in Los Angeles. TD: 00:06:47 So he published a picture of my mother saying, you know, Tomoe Nakamoto, you know, is here from Japan. And she went to uh, Soshin Gakko. Well, my father's sister also graduated from the same school, so when she read the papers, oh and she's very beautiful. So she somehow got in touch with my mother and said, I have a brother. Would you be interested in meeting him? So my mother says, well, you know, not really, but you know, I'll have lunch and tea with you. Well, of course my auntie brought my father. So they fell in love, my father and my mother. And when she told my grandfather, my grandfather was very upset because he knew if she married in the United States that she would not come back to Japan so easily. So he forced her, really forced her to come back to Japan. So she left my father and she went back to Tokyo and she became very ill. Everyone said she was heartsick, she was dying of a broken heart. So my grandpa called my father to Japan and allowed them to marry in Japan, in Tokyo. TD: 00:08:10 Interestingly, I showed your grandma that something from that you know her, their wedding, uh, invitation or something. She knows that church because she said her grandfather was one of the founders of that church in Tokyo. It's a small world. TD: 00:08:28 Yeah. Umm, would you, do you have a sense of, um, the timeline as far as maybe the years that your mom came back to the U.S. or, or that she met your father? TD: 00:08:43 Yes. She came back to the United States, I believe in 1937. AT: 00:08:50 And met your father shortly thereafter? TD: 00:08:52 Yes. AT: 00:08:53 Um, and would you happen know when they went or when she went back to Japan? TD: 00:08:58 Yes, she went back to Japan in 1939 and then my father went to Japan to meet her in 1940 and I have a picture, I'll give it to you so you can scan it of them on the ship with the entire family. When the two of them departed. And it was October, 1940 when they left Tokyo or Yokohama Harbor and returned to California. They were married in October of 1940. TD: 00:09:35 Yeah. And so when they left Japan and they arrived in the states, um, where did they settle? TD: 00:09:44 In Los Angeles in East LA, Boyle Heights. AT: 00:09:51 Um, and do you know why, why they chose that location or, or what, um, they might have been doing for, for work or professionally? TD: 00:10:01 Yes. Well, my mother, um, stayed at home. She was a homemaker. Um, I was born December six, as I said, 1941. So like one year or so about, I was born after their marriage, so my grandfather named me Toshiko, which I guess is like year or, you know, it was significant. Uh, they chose the, in East LA, there were a lot of Japanese people living at that time. And my father worked in uh, J-town, Little Tokyo. AT: 00:10:36 And what was he doing there? TD: 00:10:37 He was, uh, he was a pianist. I just, uh, as a hobby, but he worked in a music store, uh, Sumida, I don't know if that was the whole name, but Sumida music store. So he demonstrated pianos and sold pianos, but he also had another job. He worked for Felix Chevrolet, which is still in Los Angeles. TD: 00:11:02 And was that, um, repair or sale? TD: 00:11:06 Sales. Always sales. AT: 00:11:10 Um, okay. And then, um, so your parents got married. They came back to the states and, um, they had you in December of 1941, so are you the eldest? TD: 00:11:27 I am. AT: 00:11:28 And do you have any other siblings? TD: 00:11:31 I have a sister who is the youngest. Laura. She was born in Cincinnati, Ohio in 1946. I have a brother who is in the middle. Tom, who is, uh, was born in 1944 and he lives in Honolulu. Speaker 4: 00:11:49 Okay. Um, so just to, I guess moving forward, um, kind of chronologically. Um, so you, you were born the day before Pearl Harbor. TD: 00:12:09 Correct. AT: 00:12:09 Was attacked. Um, and from, it sounds like you've, you've had some conversations with, with your family and, or you have a good sense of your family's background. TD: 00:12:24 Yes. AT: 00:12:24 Um, so was there any kind of storytelling in your family or stories that you've heard about, um, the bombing of Pearl Harbor or kind of what happened within your family? Your parents when that happens? TD: 00:12:39 Because, um, the date of my birth, December 6th was before the day before Pearl Harbor and I was in a hospital in Boyle Heights, White Memorial Hospital. And when my Auntie, my father's sister and my father wanted to come to visit us in the hospital, uh, on the way home there was a blackout. Uh, so they were stranded. Everything had to stop, no headlights on the cars. It was nighttime. So my father said he and my auntie stayed in the car all night until it was daylight and they were able to drive again. Um, now when my, when they, the notice came up, um, December, uh, February 19th of 1944 and President Delano Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066. Uh, my father and us, his family, my father's brother who lived in Venice, California, moved to Stanton to live with another brother. Now, how they knew that to do that, maybe they wanted to be together. You know, they did. Maybe they didn't know that you would be evacuated together. But as a, because of that move, we all went to the same two camps. We went to Santa Anita in May and then we left for Rohwer, Arkansas in October of 1942. AT: 00:14:24 Um, and, um, going back, I, so I'm curious, um, because I would imagine your mother was probably still in the hospital the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked. TD: 00:14:42 Yes. AT: 00:14:43 Um, did she ever say anything about, um, maybe her own reactions or changes that might've taken place after the bombing? TD: 00:14:53 I think that in the hospital maybe she really didn't know, you know, what was going on until maybe a couple of days later. Um, but you know, there were a lot of Japanese people in that hospital, nurses, doctors, patients because it was in Boyle heights, which is a Japanese community. And, uh, I'm sure there was fear, but she never expressed fear herself. AT: 00:15:23 Um, and okay, just to, um, just to get some of the details straight. Um, do you know when your, your Mom, so you said that your, your uncle who was in Venice moved to Stanton to join another brother? TD: 00:15:45 Yes, and my father and us too, we all moved. AT: 00:15:48 To Stanton? TD: 00:15:49 To Stanton. AT: 00:15:50 Okay. Um, do you know when that would have been? You said it was before the signing of, TD: 00:15:57 Uh, no. So if we left for Santa Anita in May, maybe we went there in March or April. AT: 00:16:05 Okay. So right before. TD: 00:16:06 Yes. AT: 00:16:06 Evacuation. TD: 00:16:10 When, when the evacuation, probably when the date was published, you know, when we had to leave, uh, your home with what you could carry, you know, I'm sure that they went there, um, in advance. AT: 00:16:27 So let's see. Um, we were talking about, um, how your family had moved to, to Stanton in probably March, April, um, and Santa Anita in May and Rohwer in October. Um, so one question I have is, um, you know, of course you were a baby, uh, through all of this. So, um, later in your life, were there certain, um, family stories, stories or narratives that you were told about this time and this experience from your parents? TD: 00:17:11 There was a traveling exhibit from the Smithsonian and in that exhibit uh, was a picture of women lined up uh, with washtubs and my mother was the lead person and uh, you could recognize her right away. I mean, I knew it was her and she was wearing like, you know, from the forties with a bandana or this scarf on her head. And she was like this washing. So I, it was in front of us, look like a stable or a barrack. So I said, mom, what were you washing? She said, your diapers. Maybe she was just kidding, but that was uh, what she did. But are you going to go back to the train? Cause yeah. AT: 00:18:00 Um, yeah, we can, we can talk about it. TD: 00:18:02 Okay. So, you know, I, and I didn't have the wherewithal to ask her about the train ride. She did tell me that when the train went through, um, a community,, that the soldiers pulled the shades down and everybody has that memory who was old enough to know or remember on if they traveled by train. Um, and um, I guess the reason was that they didn't want people, the Americans, to know what was going on, that they were transporting Japanese or Asian people across the country. Now, where we were going from California to Rohwer Arkansas, I believe was the longest journey of all the internees. TD: 00:18:55 So I asked people at Densho if they knew how long, and they said they don't have an exact, but they think it was like four to five days. And a friend of mine told me who was like 13 at the time, uh, told me that, uh, they arrived, uh, on Halloween in Arkansas. Um, and then I was thinking also I didn't ask mom that, you know, I was at that time, if it was October, I was less than a year old. I must've still been in diapers and, uh, drinking milk. You know, maybe I was breastfeeding for a while, but how did she feed me? You know, if breast milk, okay. But formula maybe forget about formula and sitting up in a chair like this all the way. And I think probably, do they have baths? Did they have toilet, I'm sure toilets. But do they have showers for people? I mean, we went the longest. So we were gone four nights, five days to Arkansas. I don't know what happened, but uh, the suffering, the physical suffering, they never talked. My mother never said she suffered. So I never asked her. But thinking about it now, she had to have suffered. All people, all the people had to have suffered, but especially those with children. AT: 00:20:37 Umm, and so it kind of, it sounds like, um, you know, you mentioned seeing that Smithsonian image. Was that moment, um, uh, did that help you in kind of, um, forming the questions to ask your mom about that experience? Or, or what did that moment mean for you and your family and learning your family's background? TD: 00:21:09 You know, my family, especially on my father's side, they're talkers. They're storytellers. So, you know, I, I heard a lot of things already. That picture, hmm, I saw how beautiful my mother looked in that picture. And it always amazes me when you see photos of the men and women, they're all dressed up, you know, their men are wearing suits, ladies, you know, who have dresses and suits and maybe a hat, uh, how did they take care of that clothing? You know, it's, it's amazing that they were so proud that for the photo they wanted to look their best. TD: 00:22:03 Um, I can, um, do you want to ask me something? Okay. Um, and you heard this story about my husband's mother, so I'm going to tell you that story as well. Um, my husband, Paul, mother died giving birth to her fifth child at Santa Anita Racetrack Assembly Center. Now she was a healthy woman according to everyone. She was 38 years old in 1942 so she started, 'cause she went into labor, they took her to what was the first aid station. It wasn't a hospital. And when she started her labor and delivering the baby, she started to bleed. And the doctor who was a Japanese-American woman, and she's well known in Los Angeles, maybe she's dead now, but at that time she was already a doctor and she told my sister in law that that was the worst time of her life. They could not stop the bleeding. And as a result, their mother died. Now, at the all camps reunion, you were there. TD: 00:23:31 So you saw, and I asked my sister-in-law Grace to tell the story because she told, she told me this, she's told this story many times, but when she stood there in front of people, I didn't expect her to break down and cry because it's a story she always told without emotion. So I don't know whether telling it in front of the people brought up the emotion, but you know, that was a horrible time for them. Now, my husband was six years old. I think he still had to have been affected, but he doesn't talk about it. And when he was in the hospital now for his back surgery, he was a little loopy, you know. And so a psychiatrist came in and wanted to talk to him, but he would not talk to her about anything prior, you know, oh, older, hurtful things. But I, I the question I was, so I'm kind of surprised when my sister in law broke down telling the story that I forgot some of the other questions I was going to ask her. The questions I was going to ask them was, um, she was eight. TD: 00:24:55 No, she was 10. And her oldest sister, their oldest sister was 12. So Santa Anita, they took the role of the mother. So I said, when you went to Amachi, what happened? You know, um, and as it happened their mother's, cousin's, uh sister, the sister who adopted the baby, all lived in the same barrack, you know, row of apartments. So she said, well, Obasan (Auntie) and Mama's cousins, they showed us how to take care. So they showed them, they did it. Of course, you know, they carry the laundry to the wash place. Uh, how to wash the clothes, how to hang the clothes and um, you know, taught them to be homemakers at 10 and 12. AT: 00:25:58 Um, yeah, thank you. Thank you for, for sharing that story. And if there's other things that you want to bring up, bring up through too, that's um, perfectly fine. Um, and, and I, you know, it's important too because of course, just where we are in time, a lot of the detailed stories and informations that we, information that we have is what's passed, been passed down. Um, one question just in regards to your husband's, um, mother's story. Was it a situation that, um, had they been in better medical, um, if they had been in a legitimate hospital? Um, is it believed that she would've survived? TD: 00:26:57 Well, according to the doctor who was in Los Angeles, when my sister-in-law spoke to her, she said my sister-in-law, Carrots went to her for OBGYN care in the 50s. She looked up her name cause it was on the death certificate and she said, you took care of my mother in Santa Anita. Um, and she died giving birth to my baby sister. Do you remember that? She says, I'll never, the doctor said I'll never forget it. It was my first death as a doctor and there was nothing I could do. So, you know, I'm sure if she was in a hospital, she would have had better equipment, better care. I would say yes, she probably would have lived and their lives would have been different. TD: 00:27:59 Now when it's interesting because as Japanese-Americans who, uh, lived in the same camp and we came to Chicago, I came later, but came to Chicago. It's interesting how many people you meet, who knew you when you were a child or knew your family when you were in camp. You know, there's kind of a kinship. And even Paul, my husband, Hannah Hogan, Eric Langowski's grandmother. She in pre-war, they, she lived in the same neighborhood as Paul in, um, it was called the Seinan District, which is, uh, like Jefferson, um, 35th street. She knew where Paul's mother's, a barbershop was, you know, they attended the same church, which was Centenary Methodist Church in that neighborhood. And the same with me with, uh, Francis Chikahisa who used to be the, uh, she carried me in camp. She was 13 years old. She carried me in Santa Anita. She carried me in Rohwer and uh, Keti Takaki who is uh, Kali Takaki's wife, you know, from the Nisei Post. I remember I was working at the Ginza Holiday and, uh, this woman leaned over the booths and she says, are you Tonko? And did you live in Rohwer? I said, I did. She told me that she lived across the, uh, in another barrack across from us and that she used to play with me when I was one and two years old. She's the same thing, like 13 years old at the time. AT: 00:29:52 And so, um, do you know how long, um, your family was in Rohwer? TD: 00:30:02 Yes, from 1942 to 1944. My mother was pregnant with my brother when we left Arkansas by train. Um, and so that was Tom. TD: 00:30:18 Tom and my sister Laura, who was born in 1946. So they don't like it, and my sister doesn't like it when I tell her that she was born in Catherine Booth Memorial Hospital for unwed mothers. AT: 00:30:36 And that was in Chicago? TD: 00:30:38 No, in Cincinnati. AT: 00:30:39 Oh, in Cincinnati. Okay. So, um. TD: 00:30:42 Salvation Army and the Quakers helped the, uh, internees who, uh, left camp, we lived in a hostel in Cincinnati that was run by the uh, Quakers. AT: 00:30:56 And do you have information about, um, why your family ended up in Cincinnati? TD: 00:31:01 Yes. My father's, um, younger sister Chiyo, married, um, a man, Dr. Joseph Tamura, and he was a professor at the University of Cincinnati and living in Ohio. They were not required to evacuate. They were in an area that, uh, you didn't have to leave, which I was surprised that people in like Washington, D.C. They, uh, like the aliens, uh, they were sent to camp and they were sent to Rohwer, I understand. AT: 00:31:40 So it was through that family connection? TD: 00:31:42 Yes. AT: 00:31:43 And how did she, um, was she also from Cincinnati? Had, were they married prior to the war? Yes, yes. They were married in Oregon. That's where my Uncle Joe was, um, houseboy and the two maiden women, it's an old word, maiden, uh, where, uh, they were Episcopalian and he was a bright boy. He came to United States when he was 14, and worked for them as a house boy. And they realized his potential. So they sent him to school and to college. And, uh, he became, uh, a biologist and then he got a job in Cincinnati. That's why they went to Cincinnati. AT: 00:32:35 I see. Um, and just before we jump into kind of, um, the resettlement period and leaving camp. I'm just wondering if there were any other kinds of, um, did you have any memories of in camp? I know you were very young. TD: 00:32:55 Right. I only have pictures and I only have stories, but actual memories, no, I do not. AT: 00:33:02 Sure. TD: 00:33:03 But what my mother did tell me when we were on that train, leaving Rohwer, I guess, and I don't know if she told me or whether, um, I knew it, but they gave us $25 and a train ticket. And while we were on the train, my mother said that a man told her and I, and, and, and I'm thinking that all of us Japanese was our first language. I'm pretty sure that we all spoke Japanese, even Nisseis or Senseis, you know, Japanese was the first language with their parents or older people. But of course, uh, you know, they spoke English to themselves, perhaps young, young teenagers. But anyway, I was speaking to my mother in Japanese and she to me and a man said, don't allow her to speak Japanese again or anymore. So I asked my mother, do you think he was being harsh, you know, reprimanding us? She says, no, she thinks that he was trying to educate us to let us know that we should speak English now. AT: 00:34:18 Oh, and um, I know that you mentioned that your, your mother never talked about any kind of suffering or anything like that. Um, so her experience in evacuation and, and living in camp, um, but were there any other kinds of family stories or experiences from, from camp that were passed down to you or that stick out? TD: 00:34:52 Are you talking about in camp or after camp? AT: 00:34:55 In the camp. TD: 00:34:55 In camp. AT: 00:34:56 So before we get into resettlement, just-- TD: 00:34:58 Okay. Um, no, no, there were no stories of suffering. Oh. AT: 00:35:05 In general, of experiences of, of camp or, or maybe experienced, you know, family stories that might've, um, shaped or informed your own understandings of what camp was? TD: 00:35:18 Yes. Well, my father told me, and of course later that he could understand why they imprisoned him, why they sent him to camp, but he did not understand why they took me and my mother, who were both American citizens. We were both born in the United States. So he knew that that was wrong. He knew that somehow that wasn't right as an American citizen, that they took your rights away like that. No, but I think that in camp, maybe there was an underground, you know, people who, and I think it took place more in the other camps, like Tule Lake or something, but there was an underground movement. What my father did say, and I told him not to say this to anymore, when we went for the redress, he said he thought that the Japanese were going to win the war and when they won, they would come to the camp, open the gates and the Japanese would rule the United States. I said, dad, don't say that, especially at the redress meeting, they're going to give us money dad. [laughs]. AT: 00:36:41 Um, yeah, that's not quite the narrative that I think that they were looking to hear. TD: 00:36:43 No he didn't say it. AT: 00:36:49 Um, okay. Um, well in that case, um, can you tell me a little bit more about, so you explained some of the background of how your family ended up, um, going to Cincinnati and, and you mentioned that the Quakers had a hostel and you know, to house your family. So can you just, um, tell me a little bit more about what you know or remember if you did, um, of those early days in Cincinnati? TD: 00:37:20 Yes. Um, first of all, I have a scar here and that scar, oh, was because I fell down the steps of the hostel. My mother told me, so I must've been like four years old and, uh, I fell down the stairs and I uh, when I go back to visit Cincinnati, I always, I don't know if you do this, but you go by your old house, you know where you lived. Paul, my husband says, oh my gosh, again, we're going by these houses. But I go by the hostel and uh, where we lived in Cincinnati, uh, was a mixed community. It was uh, white Appalachian, uh people, black people, white people of all different, uh, economic, uh, levels. It was kind of an unusual neighborhood but in this house, which I understand used to be the dormitory for mortuary students because down the road on Ridgeway, there was a school, mortuary school where people learn to be undertakers. TD: 00:38:36 Anyway, it was kind of a funny house. But in that house there were lots of JAs, lots of Japanese American families which made, and they must have been placed there, you know, by social service agencies, by the Quakers. But was like a little camp again, you know, people would go up and down the stairs, visited people you know. But my mother, to um, help supplement the income, I remember seeing her in, um, my father's old winter coat in the wintertime, old winter coat and she had a scarf and in the basement there was like a big furnace. And I saw my mother shoveling coal into the furnace and she would also sweep the stairs and keep the hallways clean. They must have gotten a reduction in the rent for that work. Now in telling that story, I have to give you a little history about my mother. I told you that my grandfather worked for Sun-Maid Raisin and uh, he was in charge of selling the product in Japan. TD: 00:39:57 So his idea, he went to all the candy stores. He went to the grocery stores, he went in, nobody knew farm raisins. So he's the man or person who, um, thought of that small red raisin box because he said then it's like a sample. You know, people will try that, but they're not going to try this big box until they get used to it. So anyway, at one point, after living in Japan a few years and developing his business, my grandfather became the third highest paid man in Japan, because he was paid in US dollars and the yen was at 360 forever, you know, until the 60s. It was 360. And so my grandfather had a nice life. My, my mother went to a private Christian school. Um, my grandpa was a hunter and he had dogs. He imported, he brought with him, uh, wire hair, terriers. TD: 00:41:08 I have a picture of my mom and her at home and there's a pack of wild hair, wire hair carriers in their yard. Well, he imported one at a time from Germany and in this book of, um, about wire hair terriers, they listed his name that he and baron so-and-so brought dogs to Japan. So my mother told me that when my grandpa would go hunting. The train stopped not far from his house, our house, their house. So he would get on the train with his dog, with his gun, and he would ride the train someplace and go hunting. Well, you know, coming from that background, my mother was a very, I don't know what's the word, she, she didn't talk about wealth, so for her, to be a janitor, but she never complained about doing that kind of work even though, you know, and her, uh, that's another thing, I guess my grandmother didn't want to spoil my, my, her children. So she never had a maid, you know, everybody worked in that house even though, you know, they didn't have to. So, I don't know. My, I have to admire my mother for never complaining about her station in life. I wish I'd never come to the United States. I could have lived in Japan and you know, who knows, but I have to admire my mother and father. And that was a true love story, actually, my parents. TD: 00:42:58 And, uh, when he found work, I don't know where he got this name, but they called him Jack. His name is Shiro, but, uh, all of the people that he worked with called him Jack. And, uh, so he worked at, in a, in a factory, uh, Juice, Juice Ridge. They, they took juice, orange juice and they packaged it and it wasn't far from our house. And then, uh, he wanted to be a salesman, maybe get more money. So he tried to do that, but it wasn't successful. So at that point we moved to Chicago. AT: 00:43:43 Um, and just, just to clarify details because it, it sounds like you had a bit of family in Cincinnati, um, you know, extended relatives. So, um, as far as going to Cincinnati, um, who, who was, who did you go with and who were you staying with in this hostel? TD: 00:44:06 Um, I, I don't know, but they probably did. Now the same uncle who moved from Venice to Stanton also went to Cincinnati and he and his wife, this was his second wife uh, his, her two daughters and his son and his daughter. So four and they were teenagers and he and his wife, us, we went to Cincinnati, so the two brothers and their families and my uncle Kenji was a dental, I don't know what you call him. And he made false teeth and uh, I guess he was very good. I thought he was a dentist cause I remember going there at night and he work on our teeth because we couldn't afford to go to a dentist. So I thought uncle was a dentist. They said, no, no, he only makes the false teeth, but he worked on our teeth. AT: 00:45:04 Um, do you know how long you all were living in that hostel in Cincinnati? TD: 00:45:09 I would only guess that less than a year. AT: 00:45:18 And, and did you move to any other residents before going to Chicago or was your family just in Chicago? TD: 00:45:29 710 Ridgeway and um, that's in Cincinnati and that's where all those other Japanese families lived. Uh, we moved to Dayton for a short time, less than less than a year, but my father couldn't make it as a salesman. So that's when my aunt, another sister, the oldest sister who lived in Cin-, Chicago, arranged for my parents to open a cleaners. My mother was a, seem- good seamstress. She learned dressmaking in school. My father learned to be a presser. And uh, so they opened a cleaners through, uh, the Hidaka family. The hidaka family had a plant and they helped JAs open independent cleaners in neighborhoods. But the smart, of course he was doing it because to help us, but also to get the business, the wholesale business. That's what, uh, so we did that for many years. AT: 00:46:38 And so about what year was that, would you say that your family came here? TD: 00:46:42 1957. I was 16 and I would, it was in August. And in September, I started Lakeview high school as a junior. AT: 00:46:57 Um, okay. So, um, so let's see. Your, your brother Tom was born in '44 and um- TD: 00:47:12 Laura in '46. AT: 00:47:15 Okay, so Laura was born in Cincinnati? TD: 00:47:17 Yes. Tom also in Cincinnati. AT: 00:47:21 Okay. And then so they were, um, Laura is about- TD: 00:47:30 They were, yeah, they were adults, not, they were kids. AT: 00:47:32 Sure. So you all were kind of, um, you know, around teenage years or, TD: 00:47:38 Yeah, I was a teenager. I was 16 and they were in grammar school. AT: 00:47:42 Um, okay. So, um, Lakeview High School then, I'm guessing that your family came to the North Side of Chicago? TD: 00:47:50 North Side. AT: 00:47:51 And where, where were you guys living? TD: 00:47:54 The first place we lived? Huh, well, the first place when my auntie called us from, uh, Ohio. Uh, she found a, an apartment in the, what was the name of that Cortez Hotel? It's on Sheffield. It was like a, not a hotel for anyway, it was like transient people, you know, but we lived there for a couple of weeks and then we found an apartment. Um, my auntie found an apartment near her on Kenmore and Irving Park. Yeah. Coincidentally, SJ, my granddaughter, she lived just down the street from our first apartment. AT: 00:48:38 Um, okay. So, um, your family went to Kenmore and Irving Park, uh, was your mom then, did she kind of become a homemaker again? Oh no, you said that she was seamstress for business. Okay. And, um, so where was that cleaners located? TD: 00:48:57 1900 Irving Park. AT: 00:49:00 So it sounds like between- TD: 00:49:05 Lincoln and, yeah. Yes, yes. Very close. And we still live in that neighborhood, you know, so we haven't moved far. AT: 00:49:17 Um, can you, so you were 16 when you came to Chicago. Um, do you, would you happen to remember some of your first impressions of coming to the city? TD: 00:49:30 Yes. Well, was I 16 or I was still 15? I think I was still 15 and then be, I became 16. I became a junior. My impression, well, you know, we didn't live in such a beautiful neighborhood in Cincinnati, but in Cincinnati, it's not like Chicago, it's not so congested. And where we lived on Kenmore, the train ran and back the the Red Line was right in back of our kitchen. So it was very noisy in the beginning and now you become accustomed to it. And I remember that, uh, I, uh, was where I was got off the train, I was 15 and I was gonna go for a job some place. Oh, I know downtown applying for a job. So I was wearing heels, which I don't wear heels. Well anyway, I got off the train and it was so hot in August that my heel got stuck in the asphalt. TD: 00:50:29 You know how you at that time, I don't know if they still have it like that, but you know, the asphalt melted. So what's that? And we didn't have, um, air conditioning, so, and we didn't have any air conditioning in Cincinnati either, but my father was very creative, but so in Cincinnati when it was hot, which it is, it's like Louisiana, you know, it's humid, very humid. It's right on the river. He would take us the whole family and would sleep in the park. And it was nice and cool. There were other families there too. Not so many, but my father he knew it would be cooler in the park. AT: 00:51:11 But I'm guessing that wasn't something you'll try it in Chicago? TD: 00:51:16 Aye. You know what, my father, no, we didn't sleep in the park in Chicago, although he would have I guess. Um, but he bought this, um, gadget. It was a scam really. It was like a cooler. You're supposed to put water in it and the fan blows. We didn't get cool. AT: 00:51:37 All right. Um, so, uh, the last question we were on was, um, about first impressions of Chicago. Um, and you had mentioned some of the comparisons between Cincinnati. Um, so you said it was very hot. It's congested. You're living right off of the red lines. That's very noisy. TD: 00:52:00 Another thing, um, Kenmore in those years, in the 50s, um, oh, okay. it was a mixed street actually, and I found out that there were a few JA families that live, but we never saw them. We just went toward Irving park to get to work or we didn't meet mingle with anybody on the street, as, uh socialize I should say. But there were, um, Appalachian families who were very loud and I think, uh, fighting and when we had our windows open, you could hear them, you know, there was uh, fighting on the street, which you didn't hear in Cincinnati, Cincinnati, even though you lived in a poor neighborhood, people were polite. My opinion. AT: 00:52:51 Chicago was a little rougher? TD: 00:52:53 Rougher, rougher. Yeah. I mean, in the building that we lived in, in Cincinnati, as I said, there were many, like 90% JA because of the Quakers placing them there. But whenever we would come to Chicago, not often, but when we did and while we lived here, my parents are, were just astounded at how many Japanese-Americans there were. And when they would see with it, it'd be like a sighting. My mother says, " ; Oh, Nihon-jin" ; . Now how do they know they were Japanese? I don't know. Not, oh, Chinese, no. Nihon-jin, Japanese. That's what she said. Um, they were so excited. AT: 00:53:37 And, um, you did mention the, the story about, um, your mother being told to not speak Japanese with you, um, in Cincinnati and later Chicago. Um, do you remember speaking Japanese? TD: 00:53:53 No. No. And, um, how about, um, you know, one, some experiences that, that we hear a lot are about, um, Japanese school. TD: 00:54:08 I was too old when we came, um, from Cincinnati to attend Japanese school. Now, in Cincinnati in 1948 my father's mother came to live with us. She had been living in Japan from 1939, but I should say my grandparents, the two missionaries in 1939, he retired from the church and they returned to Japan. That was their 50th anniversary, wedding anniversary in 1939. Could that be right? But anyway, he, um, they moved to, back to Japan. My grandfather died in Japan, but my grandmother survived the war and came to live with us. Uh, someone must have sponsored her. Maybe my father sponsored her or my uncle Joe, you know, through the university. So she came to live with us and in our small apartment in Cincinnati, the first one, well I used to have a bedroom, but when grandma came, I shared the bedroom with her and my grandmother was bilingual, English and Japanese. And I found some old letters that she was writing to me in English from Los Angeles. She had arrived in Los Angeles first and she was visiting old friends and she wrote, well, once you arrived in Cincinnati, her time clock, she was, she was writing her memoirs. I would sleep like with a blanket over me like this while she would be writing the light shining. Right. So finally I moved into what was the hallway and I slept in the hallway. But uh, my grandmother's memoirs are somewhere and I have to find them. AT: 00:56:08 Um, and so can you tell me about, uh, your experiences, um, moving to Chicago, being new to Chicago and starting a new school? You, I think you said it was your junior year that the first year here? TD: 00:56:26 Yes. AT: 00:56:27 Can you, um, tell me about what um, Lakeview High School was like at that time? TD: 00:56:31 At that time, uh, it was predominantly white. And at that time, even kids from Lake Shore Drive went to Lakeview. TD: 00:56:43 Uh, now, uh, the makeup of uh, Lakeview is very different with open enrollment I guess. But, um, yeah, at that time, uh, it was predominantly white. There were Asians, Japanese-Americans who lived in the Lake View area. So, you know, there were those, but I never felt part of either group, first of all, because I came as a junior. But what happened was, how, I became active in the JA community is my auntie was very active in her church, which was CCP Church of Christ Presbyterian. And at that time they were on Sheffield down the street from Wrigley Field. TD: 00:57:36 So she said, come to church, you know, and then, you know, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah. So I went to church and I met some people, but I was very enterprising. I met some kids and I like to dance. So I asked the, um, elders, and they're not so old, like Jim Saiki. I mean, he's old now, but you know, and his brother and John Toriyumi, you meet these people probably were in their forties at the time and they were looking to expand their youth membership. So I said, well, you know, why don't we hold dances downstairs? now CCP that was very conservative. I didn't know that, but they bought a jukebox for us and they stocked it with records that we chose. And every Friday night that social hall was filled with kids from the south side, the North Side, everybody was dancing and they were good dancers. They liked to dance. AT: 00:58:41 And was this a predominantly Japanese-American church? TD: 00:58:44 Oh yes. Oh yes. CCP was a, at that time, almost 100% Japanese. And my Auntie, my father's sister, you know, was part of the Fujinkai. I don't know if you know, that word, Fujinkai: Ladies Organization. So anyway, they approved it and, um, we had dances and we had uh, a good time. AT: 00:59:10 And so, um, in high school, um, you know, of course social life is pretty important at that age. Um, who are some of the, the people that you were spending your time with because it sounds like CCP there was a greater Japanese-American population at school, for example. Right. So, um, were you spending a lot of time with JapaneseAmericans? TD: 00:59:37 I was, I was at that time, uh, it was a new experience for me, but, um, it was easier. They were more accepting. At Lakeview, I belonged to a club that was predominantly white, but you know, I wasn't so interested in that group, AT: 00:59:59 What club was that? TD: 00:59:59 That ,it was called, um, what do we call that Alphas, I think. AT: 01:00:04 Just a social club? TD: 01:00:05 It was a social club. I don't think you were allowed to have, there was some kind of rule, I don't like a Sorority, you know, but it was approved by, um, the school, but with the Japanese events, so as a result of these dances, we would go to basketball games, baseball games, and you know, I became friends with different people and at the time nobody drove a car. So we would take the red line to the south side at night, one o'clock in the morning and we would come home on it. But there was no fear because I don't know, we didn't have fear of people hurting us. We'd go to Clark and Division, which is a completely different look now. If you, I take my friends from out of town, Clark and Division, they can't believe it. It's all car dealerships and high-rises. But at that time, as you know, it was a Japanese-American community. So there was a place called Ding Ho, Chinese restaurant. We would go there to eat, we would eat at the rib house late at night, have ribs for like $3 or something. Yeah. AT: 01:01:20 Was that Clark and Division? TD: 01:01:22 Clark and Division. AT: 01:01:25 Um, and uh, so at this time, late fifties, early sixties, um, how would you describe the Japanese-American Community of Chicago? TD: 01:01:41 They were divided by, um, areas. There was the south side and there was the North Side and in schools all over, uh, you know, where there were a lot of Japanese-Americans. Um, they had social clubs, uh, by year, by your age. So my sister-in-law, she belonged to the Donnell's and uh, another one belonged to the Jolene's that were southsiders, but they were all women their age and from that school, usually the same thing with the boys. You know, they belong to clubs like the Bruins, the Saxons, the Vikings, they gave them, they had names like that, but you would know their age. They were like the younger brother, uh Saxons were younger brother of the Vikings, etc. So there were social clubs who also were a sport clubs, teams, they played basketball, baseball, um, under those names. AT: 01:02:47 Do you have any idea, um, whether at the time or in retrospect why those groups were formed? TD: 01:02:54 Yes, because they didn't feel part of the white community. I mean, there were some that joined uh, organizations. I think there was one in Hyde Park called the Drakes. But if you say that to some of the guys that, you know, they, they say they wouldn't accept us. Well, they were more intellectual, you know, the Drake's perhaps, but they had friends, but the clubs were all Japanese. Now, there was a, uh, a league called CNAA: Chicago Nisei Athletic Association. There was a rule at one time that you could not play on a team if you were not Japanese, part Japanese, married to a Japanese. Our friend Leon Macpherson was totally white. He was the only person that was allowed to play on the team because he grew up with, and even, though he was a ringer, he was tall. Uh, they allowed him to play on the team cause they knew him, for, since he was in grammar school. He was my husband's friend. But they were, they were, um, how would, what's the word, not racist, but segregated. No. Isolated. I don't know. What's the word where you divide people by race. Segregated. Segregated. AT: 01:04:25 Um, and the next thing I wanted to talk to you about your family's business. Um, so they opened a cleaners. Yes Um, on, on Irving Park. How, how long did that, they have that business and what was the business like? TD: 01:04:43 Um, as I said, my mother, uh, it's an ideal business for a couple and that's why you see Korean people entered the business after the Japanese people left the business, uh, a husband and wife could work together. Um, the children came to work there, you know, while mom went upstairs, to cook we would take over, um, cause it was only like half a mile from school. Um, we lived upstairs, there was an apartment that became available. So we moved upstairs from 1900 and I remember some guy saying, oh yeah, I remember going to your house on Irving Park. But um, yeah. AT: 01:05:28 Who's the clientele of the business? TD: 01:05:30 I'm sorry? TD: 01:05:30 Who was the clientele? TD: 01:05:31 White. From the neighborhood. Ah, this is what my father did. He was so smart in that store, in that shop, there was, when you looked in the window, there was like a wooden covering over the radiator. My father built a fish pond. It would be like from here to here, from there to here. And He created a fish pond with koi and he, he made um, you know, like a Japanese garden with moss. People were just fascinated by it. He was very creative and, uh, my father and mother would sell Botan Candy and kids who became, who became adults, they would say to me, if I saw them in later years, I remember buying that candy where the paper would melt in your mouth. They didn't know, you know, but they remembered that. So it was an ideal business for my parents. And, uh, even though the clientele was white, we weren't friends with them, but we became friends with other people. JA people, uh, through, uh, my parents would go to church, but, um, you know, um, my auntie's friends, people from camp that they knew, uh, my father and mother befriended a lot of people who came to the United States from Japan in the sixties and seventies, uh, with business and teachers. And they would come to our house and my mother would prepare a Japanese meal for them. And, uh, oh. AT: 01:07:14 Um, let's see. One thing I want to ask is, um, just as far as your own, um, person, personal identity development. Um, would you say that you were like pretty well aware of your, your Japanese, well, how do I want to phrase this? Um, so today, is ,do you identify as Japanese-American as a Japanese-American? TD: 01:07:57 Yes, yes. But sometimes I question and at a JACL meeting I said, do we say we're Japanese-American? Can't we just say we're American, um, of Japanese descent? And I know that a lot of people come up to you or to me and they say, oh, where are you from? You know, or what are you like, they ask SJ all the time. What are you right? Can't quite see what her ethnicity is so that, um, I mean to being Japanese and being American, it's very important to me. My heritage is very important to me. My history. Um, when I went to Japan for the first time of over 20 years ago, I did not feel Japanese. AT: 01:08:56 Why is that? TD: 01:08:57 Why? Because their, their mannerisms, their behavior. TD: 01:09:05 That's the thing my father said, do not speak Japanese in Japan because your Japanese is not so good. So I said, okay. Uh, so one time, maybe one of our first visits, Paul and I, we got lost trying to find a train station. So we're standing there on the corner looking, you know the, you know how the streets in Tokyo are wind-y, you don't know. We didn't know which way to go. So here comes a lady coming up this way. So I said, excuse me. She goes like this to me, you know, that means no, she doesn't want to talk to me. Okay, here comes another lady. I said, excuse me? I said, oh man. So here comes another lady. So I said, " ; Chotto matte. So I grabbed her arm, she got scared, she thought I was some kind of an assailant or something. I said, " ; Densha eki wa doko desu ka?" ; So she, she didn't want to speak English to me because she felt her skills were not so good. And I said, mine aren't so good either, but she led us do the train. So I think it's kind of a similar thing, you know. Um, but now I come to admire Japanese people. I don't feel more Japanese, but I come to admire them more to respect them more than I did when I first went and I feel more comfortable because I understand them better. AT: 01:10:41 Um, so I just, I have a few more questions before um asking a little bit more about your current involvement in the community. Um, I guess, um, because I'm in this project we're focusing on, on resettlement, which of course has a legacy in internment. Um, I'm wondering what, if any role would you say that the incarceration history has played in your life? How do you think that that um, experience and family history has maybe shaped your own life? TD: 01:11:34 Well, in moving to Chicago from Cincinnati where I really didn't have much of an identity or sense of myself as, because I was young and also there wasn't a strong racial or ethnic feeling there. Um, since moving to Chicago and associating more with JA people, I developed more of a sense of who I am. Um, going to Japan often, I developed respect. And you know, interestingly um, couple of things, I think visuals play a big role in your emotions. It was kind of a simple movie, but, uh, I think it was called Snow, " ; Snow Falling on Cedars," ; one of the first, um, films that was shown in the theater. And when I saw those people, and I know you know the story, you know what happens, you know, we've read about it. But when I saw those people actually walking across a bridge, I started to weep. It came up unexpectedly. I didn't, that emotion, seeing them giving up and going. So peacefully, peacefully across that bridge. I just started to weep. Um, another thing, um, like that dog, " ; My Dog Teny" ; you know, uh, what people gave up, uh, you know, and it's, it brings out emotion. So, stories, films, um, you know, they, you could read about it, but it doesn't have the same impact. TD: 01:13:26 Just like the orange story. Jason's, you know, but you know, the other day I was watching this program called Terror. Have you seen that? AT: 01:13:35 I have not yet seen it. TD: 01:13:37 Okay. AT: 01:13:37 I know all about it. TD: 01:13:38 It's kind of, I wasn't, I didn't know what to expect. It's kind of like a, you know, what do you call that kind of film where ghosts and horror film. Yeah. But, um, you know, when he, uh, the, uh, what do you call that? Oh, when he showed the barracks and uh, the dress of the people, it was so real to me how they're living and, you know, um, the whole thing started bringing up an emotion. Maybe something that I had put away, you know, that I saw when I was two to four years old. Maybe, you know, if it made you feel something even though, um, he did it very well. I mean the casting, the um, what do you call that? Uh, the scenery. Everything. Yeah. AT: 01:14:40 Was, um, this, um, particularly or, sorry, was this, um, this particular family history, was that something that you um pass down to your children and maybe grandchildren that you talked about openly? TD: 01:14:58 I did. I do. I do. SJ through the JACL of course and going to Kansha, which I think is a wonderful program. I mean, you know, and you participated. So you know what it is, because at the last, um, culmination, uh, all of them spent, and most of them are biracial. Right? Is that what you call that biracial? Um, that they said they never had a sense of who they were in a community were they white were they Japanese, but mostly, probably more white, uh, or other, and, uh, how they felt part of the community that embraced them and they understood where their grant, great-grandparents or grandparents, you know, their lives were like, so, yeah. AT: 01:15:53 And why, why do you think that's important? TD: 01:15:58 Ah, I think history is always important, right? Where, where you, your, where you came from. Like I gave, and you know, interestingly, my daughter-in-law is uh, Black, and, uh, she, I asked her, would you prefer to be called Black or African-American? She says, hm, I don't think I'm from Africa. I don't know so much about Africa, but Black. So I say Black. Well, for Christmas I gave her the National Geographic, um, uh, DNA test and she was so excited to find out her history. Um, and she found out that her mother, uh, I guess I focus more on her mother, uh, was from Eastern Africa and that, and it said the women, uh, went to Western Africa and pinpointed certain areas in Africa where her family may have originated. It was very, she, she, uh, appreciated knowing that so much because she's Black, but where is, does she, where did her ancestors come from? So, I gave it to SJ as well, and I gave it to Mitchell, my son, because I don't know, maybe you know better than me that the DNA test, if, if you, a man takes it, if it's from both sides can get history. But if I did it, I only get it from the maternal side. Okay. So I did the right thing. I gave it to him. AT: 01:17:34 Um, and then, uh, another thing I wanted to be sure to ask you about was, um, you had mentioned talking with your father about the, um, the redress hearings. So, um, could you share just about, um, your recollection of what region, what redress was like and kind of what was happening and how your family was involved? TD: 01:18:00 Hmm. So when the, uh, hearings were in Chicago, I went with my father and my mother didn't go, but my father and I attended the hearings and we listened. And I warned him, as I told you, not to say about the Japanese winning the war. And, uh, it was very important for him to get redress. The money was very important to him. It's not that he lost so much in Japan and in, in Los Angeles, but he wanted it to be an inheritance for my mother. Unfortunately, he died, he died in April, and the redress money came in August, so he wasn't able to get that. So my mother, uh, received, uh, the money, $20,000, but he was so interested in the redress because he felt he deserved it and as many of my friends, but for me, I kind of feel guilty about it. Oh. Because I did not suffer really, you know, uh, I just followed my parents. I was a child, so I, I kind of feel guilty when people, especially non-JA they say, well you got the money, you got $20,000, didn't you? You know, with that should be enough. Maybe not in that way, but in that tone. And they made me feel guilty. AT: 01:19:44 Um, okay, so we have a few minutes left. Um, and okay, so given that kind of background uh, just shared, um, one question that we're curious or we'd love to hear you about is, um, um, for is it, are there any particular reasons that you have found yourself recently? Um, being a little bit more involved in sharing your own story publicly? TD: 01:20:25 It's not so much that I'm so interested in doing it. You asked me, so I did it. Um, and for them, they came for us. You asked us. So we did it. My friend Ken Nishimura and his wife Pauline, because they live in the suburbs, um, don't always have the same opportunities to engage with JAs like we do, who live in the city. So, I don't know if you were at my house that day, that night, when was Ken at my house? And he started, you know, usually Ken's, they come to our house in the afternoon about eight o'clock and he's ready to go home. Well, you know, he stayed til 12:30, talking, he was so amped up, you know, from telling the story that maybe he's held inside, and uh, for so long, that he just couldn't stop. And 12:30, I had to tell him, you have to go home. Usually he goes home like 8 or 8:30, but if you invite him here, he'd be very happy to come. 'Cause his story is a little different. AT: 01:21:44 Um, an-another thing I wanted to ask about is, you have been organizing all camps. Um, you know, of course we haven't had it consecutive years, but, um, for the past several years you've been organizing that vent- event. And, um, could you, uh, tell us a little bit about why that's a, uh, program that you, um, like to kind of curate and, and why that's why it's an important program to you? TD: 01:22:19 Um, for many years, and I can't tell you when it started. Um, there has been, um, uh, uh, a meeting of all-clubs reunion, I described those clubs to you. And used to be only the south side, but in more recent years it became north and south side. All the clubs, we get together in Las Vegas, um, you know, people from California all everywhere, they came from all over to meet again because that friendship that they had in those years, their teenage years, their adolescent years was the most important thing in their life. They felt important and that friendship was something special because they were like people, there were people that came who are millionaires, multimillionaires. There are people that get by on social security, they belong to the same club. But when they get together and they're talking, it's like the old stories where, " ; Oh, you fell down that flight of stairs" ; and " ; Dah, Dah, Dah, and you like that girl, Blah Blah, blah." ; TD: 01:23:37 They don't focus on today. They focus on the happy times they had in those days. So, um, we haven't held an all-club reunion for a few years because of the age of the people. They don't travel well, uh, to Las Vegas. But I thought of having an all-camps reunion before people were unable to tell their story. I believe that this year was one of the more successful stories. Uh, told Times your, um, uh, uh, films, your interviews were wonderful. Everybody loved those because you know, they could relate to it. Um, and when people agreed to come up and answer questions, you know, about their lives and camp or pre-war, uh, it was very honest and hopefully it was filmed and I think it was, you know, so their children, but that's what I want to focus on. Then for the next all-camps reunion is more people coming to share their history and their stories, which, you know, people really appreciate because there were people in the audience like Hannah Hogan who knew about Paul's mother dying. She knew her when she was alive, you know, so that, that's the reason why I think the all camps and people like you, uh, would learn from the spoken word. And the visual, your grandpa has stories to tell. We didn't get to him that day. Maria: 01:25:26 You said the, and sorry you said that people again, I need it. Do you think like people like Sansei need that as well, that opportunity to share what they experience and why do you think your generation needs that as well from your position as a sansei yourself? Because we've talked about the legacy and Yonsei being, we're talking about this now because we've been listening and we're learning the history. So why, and if you think, if you think this is the case, why aren't Sansei talking more about it now? TD: 01:26:01 Truthfully, I do not know why they're talking about it now, but I would guess is because it's been introduced to them. Uh, and they have the opportunity to go to the site of the interment and to the area where the Japanese lived. Pre-War. Uh, we gave them the JACL. Uh, we put aside $15,000 a year in our budget to send 10 Sansei, Yonsei who identify as Japanese-American. They can be biracial, you know, just a drop of Japanese blood and show the interest. We send them, they pay either a hundred or $150 and we see the results that they go. And maybe if they did not go, maybe they would not know or feel or be impressed by their heritage. Is that it Maria? Did I say? M: 01:27:02 Yeah. Yeah. That's kinda because from an outsider I can see that I've been to many events regarding, you know, like yeah, eh, incarceration and all of those things. And I noticed that there are two platforms, eh, in the JAs, like we see more young people, being in the Never Again is Now March, you know, for IC. But then in the all-camps reunion, it's mostly, uh, you know, like sensei population, the one that is there, eh, rather than there being, you know, like Yonsei. So um, more of like, eh. The question is, are Sensei, in your opinion, based on the years that you've been doing this, are you noticing that Sensei are talking more about what happened during the incarceration now rather than years before? And why do you think that is? Why do you think that now is the time to talk about it? TD: 01:27:56 Because of the immigration policies of the government. Um, I think that foremost brought the attention to the Sansei, Yonsei, Gosei, you know, they feel, um, that they must, uh, help by raising their voices, uh, against, um, the Imi-, the, the uh, government policies, which kind of related to the Japanese-American in a different way, but in a way similar, right. As I mentioned, my father was very aware of the difference that as a Japanese alien and a Japanese-American citizen, we were sent away without due process. So in the, um, executive order, it says, I believe it was in the executive order. If you have one 16th Japanese blood, you had to go to the camps. If you lived in this area. Now, why was just this area? Why didn't they take everybody? Because, I believe, and others believe it was more first racial, racially motivated and economically motivated. The Japanese farmers controlled a lot of land. I don't, there's a percentage. I don't know if you know the percentage. I don't, but it's huge. And they, they, um, even before the, uh, first world war in the Sacramento River Delta area, the Japanese immigrants in the 19, early 19 hundreds, learned to irrigate and to develop that land, that delta to grow potatoes. TD: 01:29:54 Yeah, it was a, um, there's a lot of things that were lost and, and, but I think the relationships now is uh, connecting it to the, um, current policy of the government, ICE, etcetera. I don't know if, if uh, would they march just because Japanese-Americans went to camp? I don't think so. Yeah. But because there's a like, um, project, it's, it comes together. M: 01:30:27 And what do you think telling their stories does to Niseis, because we've talked to some Niseis and what do you think about being able to share what happened? Because you've been saying that your friends are sharing their stories, so what do you think that does to them? Having the opportunity to speak up about what happened to them. And have you found this to be easier with, not like now that more people are sharing their stories or is it still something that is, eh, difficult to get to happen? TD: 01:31:01 I think it's the opportunity. I think it's a camera. It's you with you, you know, you're asking the right questions and opening up the dialogue. Sometimes when you have stories, like I'm a talker, you know, and I, I know the stories, so it's easy for me to tell the story. But some people they didn't have the same relationship with their families. Like my friend Ken, his father and mother never talked to him. So he just went along like a mope. He didn't know, you know, but he knows some things and he knows what happened. So those stories he's happy to share. But um, basically I think that's it. You have to ask the correct right questions of them. Like many Nisei or older Sansei they say, oh, well we went to camp, we had so much fun. You know, we just played games and danced and this and that. Well there was more to it, you know, but they're not, they're not able to say it. Right. I think the hardship of their parents, if you go back to the hardship of what their parents did and endured. AT: 01:32:19 Um, I have just a couple more questions. TD: 01:32:26 Yeah, go ahead. AT: 01:32:28 Um, so given your heavy involvement in the community here over years, decades, really, um, how, how would you describe, um, I guess the Japanese-American community from when you first arrived in the late fifties to today? Or maybe how has it changed? TD: 01:33:00 Okay. I think, uh, now, uh, the social service, is that the right word? Social Service like.org organizations, um, you know, are more sharing and there are more, you know, like there's the historical society, the JACL, the JASC, uh, mutual aid. Uh, and before I think people lived, uh, joined and they were more isolated. Now it seems that the organizations are coming together more and, um, working toward certain goals, um, for the community. I, oh, go ahead. Oh, no. You know, I was just thinking, TD: 01:33:50 Oh, what is your ethnicity? M: 01:33:55 Me? Hispanic. TD: 01:33:55 Hispanic. Hmm. Um, when I went to Italy for the first, no, not the first time, but when I went to Italy, I visited an area called Pietrasanta, which, um, there was a man, his name is Americo Bugliani. And he came to the United States, came to Chicago and became a commander of Nisei posts like two or three times he came to America. He was an Am-, his father was an American. So when he came to United States, he came kind of to search for someone. The guy's name was Paul Sakamoto. Now you've probably heard this story before, Anna. In his town of Pietrasanta, the Nisei, uh, the 100th and 4th, uh, 100th battalion 442, they, um, well, I don't know what the word is, but they stayed there before climbing the Apennine Mountains. Now, the 100th and 442, which is I guess a battalion and regiment of it was a segregated, they were segregated units of only Japanese-Americans, their leaders, their officers were white. There was a segregated Black regiment. TD: 01:35:20 This was close to the end of the war in 1944. And they bivouacked in Pietrasanta. When they left there, they didn't know if their lives would end or they would survive. So the Black, the White and the Japanese climbed the Apennine and broke through the Gothic Line in 38 minutes, I believe, within 30 to 38 minutes. And they, they broke through the German Line and ended the war much earlier than anticipated. Well, Americo Bugliani when he, when he was in Pietrasanta as a 13 year old boy, there was a man called, uh, Paul Sakamoto, who was a member of the 442. He was from Hawai'i and he gave the boy his musket, he gave him his toothbrush, his toothpaste, uh, a jacket, I believe. TD: 01:36:14 And he left, and he climbed the mountains and he survived. But all, many years and years later, uh, Americo wanted to find him because he was so kind to him. He was just a raggedy begging boy in Italy. So he called all the Paul Sakamoto's in California. He couldn't find them. He called in Hawai'i, couldn't find them. Well, one year the, uh, American Legion Jap, uh, went to Hawai'i for a convention and he asked about Paul Sakamoto, and he found him in Hilo on the Big Island. And I, there's a picture, I'll show you the picture of him. And uh, he said, " ; Why, why were you looking for me? Why?" ; He said, " ; Because you were so kind to me. You gave me everything you had." ; He said, " ; I did that because I did not know if I would survive. I didn't know if I would need my toothbrush. And you know, I wanted to give it to you." ; TD: 01:37:17 So anyway, that Americo Bugliani, in the town of Pietrasanta, which is a half a mile, half an hour from Pisa, that, he, he created a park. Now Pietrasanta is a town of sculptors. Michelangelo had a studio there, Botero, he had a studio there. There are many students and each of the sculptors are asked to give a sculpture for the town. So it's in a plaza, it's a very small, beautiful town. Americo Bugliani and his wife Ann retired Diddley. She worked uh, for Loyola as uh, I think dean, dean of uh, foreign students or something. And now she, he died last year, but every year in May they would come to the, um, uh, memorial day at the cemetery because they memorialized the, you know, that's for soldiers who died memorial day. People don't, I didn't realize it, but ever since I went to Italy, I go to Memorial Day, you know, to honor those Japanese soldiers. So, but then this year Ann came and she was at the luncheon. I'll show you her picture later. So, well that made me interested in the Nisei Post because, uh, uh, I'm grateful and I respect and I, I pay honor and homage to those men who were so brave and gave their lives, you know, AT: 01:39:01 Tonko, um, I want to ask you just in general, um, what are some of your hopes for the future of the Japanese-American community here in Chicago? TD: 01:39:18 Well, I hope that all the organizations get along well, that we work hand in hand with each other to, um, to help the history I think is important of the Japanese-Americans from way back when. That information should be shared so that their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren can understand and appreciate why they came to America, how they prospered in America, how they suffered in America, and how they, their lives grew in America. The whole story. My grandfather wrote a book I found out when I went to the mission school, it was called '50 Years in America'. Now in that book is a lot of history, but it's written in Japanese and it's in certain libraries. It's in Iolani in Hawai'i, it's in, in Do-sha-sha, Do-kyo-sha in Kyoto. But it's in Japanese and you can't take the book out. You have to read it there. But things like that, you would know, your grandchildren will know the story. It's important like with your film. AT: 01:40:41 Um, one last question, and this is kind of more for this part that we're focusing on in the documentary, but, um, what are some of your thoughts or, or maybe perspectives on, um, Yonsei involvement in the community today? TD: 01:40:59 What are my thoughts? I'm proud, I'm proud to see that because it's not just social now, right? I mean, each church and each organization, the kids would help with fundraisers, etcetera, but now they're working to helping people, right? And they cross lines, you know, now they're becoming one and, uh, working toward helping those who are less fortunate and don't have a voice. You know, it's like that, uh, what, uh, the German poet that, uh, then they came for me. Yeah. AT: 01:41:45 Before we wrap up, um, one thing that I like to ask folks who record oral histories is, um, if you could leave some kind of legacy or message behind, um, whether it's for your family or, or for future generations, what is something that you would want, um, people to have or to know? TD: 01:42:09 I think, um, as I said, like the German poet, uh, if you see something wrong, you have to speak up. You have to say, you have to vote. I mean, it could be one way or it could be the other. If you believe in something, you have to stand up for it. If you see something wrong happening, you have to speak and say that's wrong. Um, no one spoke for the Japanese people when they were taken to camp. The Japanese people themselves went to camp without much, uh, pressure. Some people blame the JACL for not making a stronger stand. But are you going to fight thousands of men with guns? No. If you see something, you hear something, you read something, you say something and you write in response. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoiToshiko20190903.xml DoiToshiko20190903.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
Alternate Form of Name
Toshiko
Sort Priority
0700
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoiToshiko20190903.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Doi, Tonko (9/3/2019)
Description
An account of the resource
Toshiko (Tonko) Doi is a second-generation (Nisei) Japanese American born in the Boyle Heights neighborhood of East Los Angeles, California the day before Pearl Harbor was attacked. In this interview, she discusses her family's pre-war history, incarceration experiences at Santa Anita and Rohwer, and life in Cincinnati and later Chicago after World War II. Tonko recalls her parents' laundry/dry-cleaning business in Irving Park in North Chicago and describes her own work coordinating all-camp reunions and social club reunions for the Chicago Japanese American community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-09-03
Format
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video
Series: Untold Stories
-
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/a89d8b2657ac2f447ae815146414b41b.pdf
04f2018276df367c85d69c905cb3ec0d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Annual Reports
Description
An account of the resource
Record Group 9, JASC Publications
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chicago Resettlers Committee
Japanese American Service Committee
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Japanese American Service Committee
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1946-2011
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RG09
Subject
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Annual Reports of the Chicago Resettlers Committee and Japanese American Service Committee
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Original Format
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paper
Text
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•
I
•
•
THE CHICAGO __ RESETTLERS I COMMITTEE
_REPORT
0 F , A C T I V I T I E S
.
'
Septombe�
;
.'
28, 1946
Corky T. Ke.wo.so.ki,
Executive Director
---��-----------�--�---�----�-----------�----------------------�----�---
'
.
In- July, 1944, _ a small group of volunteers among· Japanese. iuner:.-·
. cans, assembled o.nd conceived o. plo.n for the need of interp:cet:i.:r.g
the problems of evacuees (who were resettling into the Chico.go area from i·eloco.tic:n
centorn) to the Vvar Relocation Authority and social agencies which ha.d committed
thcmRelves to t_he (1ssistunce of resettlers. The group beli.rured in the souncL :;,ntegru�
progl"am to work toward th:.s
tien of resetplcrs o.nd en9 ()_urugod leudorship to develop
goal�
How it Began
a
Limited financial support, wo.rtime c onditions and restrictions,
and the unsettled sto.tus of resattlers themse,lves mo.di::i it difficult for the volun
teers to function beyoJ?d.,o.n �dvi.sory _ st(,ige.
The volunteers, however, foreso.w the need for o. continuing agcnc-y
to attend to th_e ').nfinisl1ed pJ;".oblems of evo.cuo.tion and resettlement. They desired ':r;
o.goDr-y tho.t wo1ild · supplement the work of the W.R.A., und advise· related agencies of
resettlement problems.
The commi:yte� ,wo.s formally organized in September, ·1945. The
Chicago Rcsettlers.' Committee owes its existence to the leo.dership · of the.: following
per sor.s:
Mr. Hurry Mayeda.
Mrs_., Ken Nishi
lvl:r 1 ,Mo,samori. Kojimo.
Mr:· Thomas Mo.sudo.
Rev. Andrew Oyo.mo.
Miss Gro.ce �o.giyn
Mr� deorge Aknhoshi
Mr. John K. Brenton
Mr. Ryoichi Fujii
Mr. G. T. Mo.t sunugo.
- Dr. Virgil Lowder·
Mr. Koichi Ma.sunnko.
Mr. Tom Shibuto.ni
Rev. Albert C. _Ronunder
Ori]fovember 5, 1945, n group of twenty men and.women met at the
W.R.A. Council Room and accepted the Consti tution o.nd By-laws drafted oy o. committee
l:oo.dod by Thomo.s Mus'v,9"0, and elected their officers. The officers,· me1nbers . of the
&,rncu tive a.nd Advisory ·Boards ure o.s follows:
EXECUT IVE BOARD
l�DVISORY BO.ARD
C
Ho.rry K. Mo.yea.a, ·President·
G. T. Mo.tsunaga, Vice-President
Mrs. Ken Nis�i,.Se6retary.
Kohuchiro Su-gimoto�- Treusu.rer
K- Ma.suno.kt.., J.1.udi tor
C(?rk:Y, T, Ko.wt1so.ki, .,Execrutive :Director
.
, ·,
John K. Brenton
Ryoichi Fujii
Dr. Willie,:m Hiuro..
Hnruo Ishimo.ru
Ichikuro Kond.o
Rev. G. M. Kubos,e
Rev. Virgil: E. Lowder·
Y. Muruynmo.
Joe Teiji Koide
Dr. Mo.+.suRo.buro Kuki
Thoma.s Musudn.
Rov. Ji tsuc, Morikawa.
Rev. J·inc�rew Y. Oya.mo.
Rev, Leslie T, P·:inningt.on·
:1{, Tn.k<;mc-,ri
Tom 'l'en.jl
Soko.e To'.lu
Brother '1'heopho.nc Wo.1-sh
Dr. Horry J. Vvulker
Russell W. Bul'lo.rd
Edwo.rd Engle Brown
Helen P. Bull
Hor!ice R. Co.yton
Eo.rl B. Dickerson
Dr. Arthur G.··Fo.lls'
William H. Ho.ight
Dr_ • .S. I. Hayakawa.
Dr. Melville J. Herskovitz
Joseph Keenan
Leo Lerner
Mrs. Emile Le:vy
Micho.el Marin
Judge John P. McGoorty
George B. McKibben
John Nuvee:n, Jr.,
Denn Robert R��field
Denn Curtiss W, R0ese
Dr. Harold W. RuC'pp
Judge 'Geo:.'ge r;; ;1·,:.:.lici
Elffier 1, Shiirell
Dr. Edwo.·rd j, $p'.lrling ..
W, K�_:_:;..s :�tE.:vr.x-�
ViTUl.1.u.r.c;J - �. 'l:ownsond
Ph:,:lip vrc�.n .
Mr·c·.·�io:�n H. Wedd.::lJ.
Ro.bbi Jo.cob J" Wei::1Stein
•
The Chico.go Resettlers' Committee
REPORT OF ;�c·rrvrT IES
- Po.ge 2 Nho.t It Is
The Chicago Resettlers' Committee is, therefore, o.n orgo.nizo.tion
of citizen o.nd non-citizen Jo.punese Junericuns, Ca.uca.siuns, o.nd
Negroes; Ca.tholics, Protestants, Buddhists, a.nd Jews; representative of business,
la.bar, education, the press, and other occupations who believe tha.t unless well-ad
vised leo.dership is given to the problems of persons of Japanese ancestry, further
physico.l a.nd psychologica.l isolation would become the trend.
What It Does
The INFORM.b.TION-REFERR.1,.L SERVICE o.t 734 N. La.Sa.lle Street o.ssists
close to 200 porsons a. month. Two-thirds of this number need
special interpretive service in medical und social service referra.l, counseling in
family and business problems, employment, and housing, because they o.re first genera
tion Ja.po.nese who do not sper,k English adequately to go directly to other agencies.
Vctero.ns and other Nisei who� because of their o.ncestry and evacuation experience,
need attention not given elsewhere o.lso uso the service.
More than fifteen hundred persons ho.ve gone through the office of
The Chico.go Resettlers' Committee during the po.st ni ne months of its existence. One
of the b�,sic purposes of the Committee is to encouro.ge Jo.pr-nose Junorico.ns to muke
use of community resources in aiding their adjustment in Chico.go.
Miss Lucy T. Carner, Executive Secretary of the Division on
Recroo.tiono.l Education of the Council of Social figencies, recently so.id tho.t the
recren.tiono.l needs of resettlers hc-d b(_3come increasingly "dramo.tic" o.nd cha.rged
tho.t though the c,goncies had not discriminated, they ha.d fo.iled to to.ke the
necesso.ry initiative in ma.king it possible for these "complete strangers" in Chico.go
to enjoy ugency resources.
Next yeur, we hope to employ o. full-time worker to stimulate
Nisei participation in the on-going recrea.tionul uctivities of Chico.go agencies.
The Community Referro.l Service in the loop ho.s been extremely helpful to the Com
mittee, but most Issei have difficulty in mo.king direct agency contacts due to
their lo.nguuge difficulty •
.l,. countless number of these referro.ls have be<:m mo.de via. tole•
phone. The following figures of the number of i nterviews will give some ideo. of
the importo.nce of the Committee 1 s work•
Employment ------------------Housing ---------------------
Referral --------------------Counseling ------------------
Business Opportunities ------Totnl
MAY
JUNE
101
14
56
12
3
186
83
25
30
7
7
-152
JULY
121
29
18
20
8
196
AUGUST
119
27
50
9
5
210
.b. Co.lendo.r of j1,ctivities of the Committoe to do.te is us follows;
.h.ugust 15, 1945
Sponsored enterto.inment o.t the Hull House.
people enjoyed the event.
Ja.nuo.ry 6, 1946
An Open House for tho Committee was held at the c. Y. o. Nisei
Genter, o.nd tho Committee mo.de its official debut o.s c.n 11.gency.
Jo.nuo.ry 12, 1946
The first 11 GO" Tourno.ment was held at the Chico.go Buddhist
Church, ::,nd close to u hundred people o.ssembled.
11.pproximutely 100
English classes were organized with the ussisto.nce of the CYO
Nisei Center und the �dult Educo.tion Depo.rtment of the Boo.rd of
Education. l.pproximutely sixty-five persons a.re ta.king o.dvo.n
tuge of this nctivity on the North Side.
February 12, 1946
February 16, 1946
April 2, 1946
of Education.
A lecture on current events was held ut the CYO Nisei Cehtcr,
o.nd some fifty people were in Lttendo.nce.
� South Side English cla.ss was organized through the courtesy of
the Chicugo Buddhist Church c,nd the Jdult Educo.tion of the Boa.rd
Some twenty-five studonts ure attending the clo.ss.
Sponsored musical o.nd teu in honor of the behind-the-scenes Wo.r
Reloco.tion Authority employees, o.nd some one hundred and_twenty
five persons attended ��einteresting program.
Mo.y 5., 1946
..
The Chico.go Resottlers• Committee
REPORT OF aCTIVITIES
Po.ge 3
Tfay 30, 1946
. brg·rxnizo.tions.
September 17, 1946
instructor.
Purt icipo. ted in the gigantic Memorial Duv Vetoruns • Testimonial
Banque�, . which was sponsored together with thirtoc·n o-thcr Civic
Sto.r':f.ed anot her English cl4.l.s$ at the South··c'origrego.tionnl Church
with 'the Bouru of Ec:uct.�tion mu.king simikr arro.ngements for ·n.n
September 15 r:cnd
22, 1946
The second "GO" Tournament was sponsored by the Committee at the
-cyo His0i C-enter. Approximr..:.tcly one hundred -c.nd fifty persons
·purticipr..:.tad in the two-Sunday event.
· September 29, 1946
ii. city-wide golf tourm,mont wns sch0duled by populo.r request, and
o. cornmi tt0e 1icl�<led by Thomus M.t,sudo. o.rro.nged a good tournc,rrient
. for the. golfers of the younger group •
October. 5, l.9-1t6
.
stitute.
October 26, 1946
�lcl
JD.panese instrument) a.re getting o.
.. Music.,-,lov.cr.s of Biwo. ·· (o.n
thrill fr0ni·the announcemen t of a Biwa concert o.t the Olivet InA Hobby Show is r..nothor of th�_much-unti:cipated
events to be
..
spoiisorel by the ,c·ornrr\itt�e..
The Chico.go Resettlers' Committee is '.uctive in the following
coordino.ting groups:•
·Executive Board of th9 Diyision on. Ecl\l-00.tion-Recreution
Coordint:lting Committ'ee o
· ii Vfelfo.re s,orviqes to Persons
• o'f Jup(lnase desce:r.t · ·
Lowi;friNorth Cormnunity
, Couni;. il
. .
., ...dvisory Bari.rd
Dopartmont of Socio.l 86rvioa, . ..
Ct:1U:_:i;-.6}1:)'ed�ru.tion of Greater Chico.go
Ch:i,co.go Japanese ilJll.ericun Council
Chicago. Council Ji.go.inst Racial o.nd Religious Discrimino.tion
The relationship with other o.gencies o.nd organiza:bions hns been exceedingly good since
the beginning a.nd there is little or no duplicati<ln of eff ort. 'The Cbmmittoe became
c, member of the Chicc;go Council Ago.inst Rt:..cial und Religious p:tsc.:rimina.tion to fight,
o.gn.inst the unfo.ir prc.ctic0.s,qgo.inst minorities.
How it is Financed
Genotoiis.. d"Orio.tions huve been received from various organizations
and iridi vfdua.ls. Among them nro the following:
The Chicago Congregut ionnl Union, Dr� Neil E. Hansen; the
Unito.rio.n Service Committoci with headquarters iP Boston, Masso.chusettsr Congregation
al Committee on Christian Democro.cy, Dr. Clp:renco S � Gillett, have':b�en the major
supporting orgo.nizations. Marshall Field and Edward Eagle Brown havc·'cbntributed,
indicating an appreciation of the problems 9f resettlors in t'he trabsitidno.l period
of n.dju..stmcnt. i;n.. Chlci:.go.
- - .... -.. ...,_ - · - - - - · �� �
We believe that the Chicago Resottlers•: ;CornmitteJ is the kind of
organization that warrants the support of :E+ll.peopl<J, inasmuch a's'the_ Chico.go Com
munity at largo should be concerned with whEl,t happens to peop'ie 1who'-wero uprooted
from their homes and businesses on the West ',coo.st, forced to confinement without
chnrges, und -who were roset.t h,d in strunge 1.irbo.ri connnuni tios. On the kind leudership
o.nd coopero.ti ve attention g1ven'to their problems toduy will depend whether the
forced movement to the Middle, West !;en� .2;o.st permanently creuted an intensely self
conscious' min�rity group or ·no.steriod the assimilation of persons of Japanese descent.
The f'.ollowing Fino.ncial Report w o.s prepared by Mr. Koho.chiro Su
gimoto o.nd audited by Mr. Koichi Mn.sunako., who nre Treo.surer o.nd ii.uditor respective
ly:
(see following page)
..
The Chicugo Rascttlers' Committee
REPORT ON ACT IVIT !ES
- Page 4 '!'HE CHIC.i�GO RES E1T LERS ' COMMITTEE
ST,1.T EM ENT OF !NCOME i�D EXPENDITURES
From Dec·. 18, 1945 to June 30, 1946
INCOME
* DONJ..TIONS
MEMBERSHIP FEE ( 148 Members)
Sl�L.RY
OFFICE RENT
MAILING EXPENSE
OFFICE SUPPLY
TRIP EXPENSE
.ADVERTISING
PUBLIC RELi.TIONS
. '1'ELEPHONE
MISCELLiNEOUS
OFFICE FURNITURE
. In Bnnk - $536.28
On Hund - $230.00
.$2,812.25
296.00
EXP END IT URE
$1,525.00
254o44
53�50
155.58
53.60
42.00
99.42
97.26
4.75
56.42
$2; 341.97
766.28
$3,108.25
* Donations
Booth, Mrs, Raymond
$
Brown, Edwurd Eagle
Chico.go Congregf.ltionul Union
Chico.go Japnnese .hmerican Council
Dearborn Glnss Company
Field, Mursho.11
Huyakuwo., Dr. S. I.
Mutsunugn, To.hei
Nutionul City Linea
Congrer;ationi:.l Committee on
Christiun Democracy
Ross, Prydence
St. Mo.ry 1 s Girls' Dormitory
Unit�riun Homo Sorvico Committee
Other Donors (38 persons)
25,00
50,00
700.00
15.00
70.00
100�00
10.00
60,00
50�00
700.00
15.00
29.25
soo.oo
188.00
� 2,812.25
FINii.NCfoL STiSEMENT
,�s
OF SEPTEJ'v'fBER 30, 1946
Income:
MEMBERSHIP (296)
DONATION
592�00
3,52��25
_
4,115.25
Expenses:
Suhry
Mniling
Ront·
Office Supply
Trip Expense
Advert isemerit
Public Relations
Telephone
Office Furniture
Miscello.noous
$2,$15.00
133.78
364.66
236.12
67;10
47.00
_134. 26
157.26
55;42
·. 24.
75
_3, 736.35.
TOTi.L Bi.1.L..JWE
Rcsp(3ctf_ully submitted,
$378.90
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Annual Report, 1946
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1946 September 28
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RG09_Series01_Box01_1946_09_28