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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Doi, Mary
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yoshino, William
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YoshinoWilliam20221206.xml
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL Chicago chapter
JACL Midwest Director
JACL Midwest District
Legislative strategy
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
CWRIC hearings
Northeastern Illinois University
Portland Assembly Center
Heart Mountain
Edgewater Beach Hotel
South Side
Calumet High School
OHMS Object Text
5.4 12/6/2022 Yoshino, William (12/6/2022) 1:44:03 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Japanese American Citizens League JACL Chicago chapter JACL Midwest Director JACL Midwest District Legislative strategy Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians CWRIC hearings Northeastern Illinois University Portland Assembly Center Heart Mountain Edgewater Beach Hotel South Side Calumet High School Yoshino, William Doi, Mary video 1:|16(12)|50(11)|67(3)|87(14)|100(6)|111(11)|123(5)|134(11)|146(13)|159(7)|172(9)|197(4)|211(3)|230(11)|249(11)|278(13)|288(11)|300(4)|314(1)|330(12)|341(3)|352(7)|364(8)|386(2)|407(4)|422(11)|444(1)|500(9)|515(9)|553(3)|558(14)|566(10)|574(11)|588(13)|596(12)|605(16)|615(12)|624(15)|640(14)|648(3)|662(3)|670(6)|684(11)|692(11)|704(1)|715(9)|722(13)|732(11)|741(8)|752(14)|764(12)|776(2)|786(2)|796(9)|805(4)|813(9)|824(7)|835(3)|842(9)|851(15)|861(11)|869(10)|880(1)|896(17)|906(16)|919(3)|930(1)|939(10)|962(2)|971(11)|979(16)|992(3)|1001(12)|1017(9)|1027(4)|1036(10)|1044(5)|1053(8)|1069(12)|1077(3)|1089(11)|1110(2)|1121(1)|1130(3)|1141(6)|1164(1)|1171(13)|1180(10)|1191(4)|1199(5)|1208(2)|1213(11)|1220(3)|1226(11)|1234(6)|1243(12)|1252(11)|1262(4)|1277(8)|1290(9)|1296(11)|1308(10)|1319(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/823092099 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/823092099?h=aef563637c" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; William Yoshino, a Sansei whose parents were incarcerated at Heart Mountain, descibes his family's wartime experience and his own experience moving from Washington State to Chicago's South Side as a teenager. In this interview, he reflects on his involvement with the JACL's Chicago chapter and his role as the JACL's Midwest Director beginning in 1978. He recalls that in Chicago, JACL leadership passed from the Nisei generation to the Sansei generation relatively early, perhaps leading the chapter to be more progressive than others. He recalls campaigns prior to the Redress movement that helped JACL members hone their lobbying and organizing skills, shares details about the JACL's Redress strategies, and describes some of the interracial coalition building that proved to be effective in Chicago. He concludes with detailed recollections about the Chicago CWRIC hearings in 1981, particularly the selection of the location, coverage by news media, and his personal experience as a member of the audience hearing the witnesses give testimony. Mary Doi: All right. Well, let' ; s start. I have a little script to read to you today. So today is December 6th, 2022. This is an oral history being recorded at the JACL Chicago office, located at 5415 North Clark Street in Chicago. The interviewer is Mary Doi. The interviewee is Bill Yoshino. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American Redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. This interview will differ from a normal conversation in that I won' ; t be using verbal cues and responses. Instead, I' ; ll use facial expressions to communicate my interest in what you' ; re saying. This makes for a clearer transcript. You can decline to answer any question without giving a reason. You can take breaks whenever you need them, and you can end the interview at any point. So if everything' ; s okay let' ; s begin. William Yoshino: Okay. Did you want me looking at Mary? Ty Yamamoto: Thank you for asking. You can look at Mary. William Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: Yeah. Bill, thank you so much for doing this interview. I' ; ve known you as the, well, now retired, Midwest District person for JACL. And also I remember seeing you in San Francisco when you were the acting, I think you were the acting national person at JACL. Were you? William Yoshino: Yeah. I did serve in that capacity several times. I did a stint actually as the National Director of JACL in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Mary Doi: Okay. So that must be when I remember seeing you in Japantown and just passing in the night. Well, I think what' ; s interesting about talking with you is that you bring a really unique perspective to the Redress Movement because you know this story both regionally, Chicago and the Midwest, and you have this national perspective. So, I think you' ; re somebody who can zoom in and zoom out on the redress story. Let' ; s see. This is a JACS grant-funded project that will use oral history videos, archival documents, and other objects to develop a fictional narrative film and a K-12 curriculum that tells the redress history through an innovative healing and justice framework. Full Spectrum Features is going to be working with educators at Harvard to develop this pedagogical model. I know you' ; ve talked to Kat before, for The Reckoning digital exhibit that the JASC curated. So, I' ; m going to try not to ask you the same sorts of questions, but let me just give you an overview of what I' ; m interested in. I' ; m interested in opposing viewpoints in and outside of the Japanese American community about redress. I' ; m interested in, in hindsight, redress strategies that you think could' ; ve gone a little bit better. And I' ; m also interested in how you look back at the Redress Movement from roughly the eighties to the nineties, from the perspective of 2022. You have this great long view of history and your interpretations of it may have changed over the intervening decades. So, that' ; s a little bit about the explanation. I was saying to Ty that I' ; ve known you, I know of you, but I really don' ; t know anything about you. I know that your family moved from someplace in Washington state in the early 1960s. It was a small town. You moved to Chicago in the early 1960s. And you moved to the South Side. How did that happen? What was the reason? William Yoshino: Well, let me start at the beginning. Just, I think in a very general way, my mother was born in Seattle. Her family lived on the south side of Seattle in the community basically where most of the Japanese resided at that time, the Beacon Hill area of Seattle. My father was an immigrant to Japan. He came in 1924. He was a teenager. His father had preceded him to the United States. So, my father actually came in June of 1924. If you recall historically, the end of June actually was the date on which the Immigration Act of 1924 became actionable. It precluded any further immigration for purposes of permanent residency to the United States by people coming from Japan or basically the eastern hemisphere nations. So my dad just made it under the wire as it were. As I said, he had been preceded by his father who was in the military in Japan. He actually was part of the Imperial Guard under the Meiji emperor. Then when the Meiji emperor died, he kind of became like displaced in some ways. I think that that and perhaps, and I don' ; t really know the entire history of it, but he decided that his future was not in Japan any longer. It was elsewhere. So, he came to the United States. My father, coming when he was in his teens still, then started school in Seattle. He docked at the port. His entry point was the Port of Seattle. So he was there. And he actually had to start high school all over again, go through all of that because of the language and so forth. But he was working, I think, in the produce industry at the time that he met my mother, whose family owned or ran, I should say, a very, very small grocery store. I think it was in the Capitol Hill area of Seattle. It turned out that my father met my mother because he delivered produce. Her family store was one of the stores that he delivered to. Anyway, they met, got married. This was pre-war, just before the start of World War II. My father, at the outbreak, or I should say prior to the outbreak of the war, really he had heard, I think some of the rumors about an impending so-called evacuation. He thought, well, I don' ; t want to get caught up in this. So he had some relatives who lived in central Washington, south central Washington I should say, the area of Kennewick, which is on the Columbia River, which separated Oregon from Washington. So he moved out there. He was kind of out of the restricted zone, the zone one. He thought that, well, he could just start forward with his life, but what happened was, was they extended the zone to central Washington. So, he got caught up in what would become the removal of Japanese from the west coast of Seattle. As a result, he didn' ; t go to the Puyallup Assembly Center, which was the main point where folks from Seattle went. He went instead to the Portland Assembly Center. That may have changed where he eventually wound up. I think, had he been removed from Seattle to Puyallup, he may have gone to, or my folks may have gone to Minidoka. As a result of being removed out of the Portland Assembly Center, they ended up at Heart Mountain. And then from there, the first chance my father got to get out of the camp, he did so by finding employment here in Chicago. I don' ; t know exactly what the date was, but it was at some point where there was the situation where folks could leave the camp if they were able to find employment or sponsorship in points outside of the West Coast. So he found a job working as a bartender at the Edgewater Beach Hotel, which I think employed not a lot, but it employed, it was open to employing Japanese Americans, those who had been in the camp and then were moving into the Midwest, out east and so forth. So my folks then remained here in Chicago. They actually lived on Kenmore Avenue, which is not too far from where the Japanese American Citizens League and Service Committee are located even today. After that, after the end of the war, my folks moved back to Seattle and then decided to join some of my other relatives who were in a town called Moses Lake, which is in central Washington, an agricultural area. They grew sugar beets, potatoes, that sort of thing. So my father decided that that' ; s what he wanted to do. He had his education disrupted, didn' ; t have the funds to... he had been attending the University of Washington pre-war, didn' ; t have the funds to go back for a variety of different reasons. So, he decided that he would try to do some farming and did so for about 10 years in the Moses Lake area. And then decided because he wasn' ; t doing that well in agriculture, decided to join some relatives that we had here in Chicago. We moved to Chicago, I believe it was in 1961, moved to the South Side of Chicago. And that' ; s how I arrived in this town. Mary Doi: About how old were you at that time? William Yoshino: I was 14. Mary Doi: Okay. I grew up on the South Side too. I was born in Hyde Park, and then I lived at 72nd and Stony. Were you anywhere near 72nd and Stony? William Yoshino: No, I wasn' ; t. I was in kind of a mixed neighborhood. It was an old Irish-Italian neighborhood around 80th and what is now the Dan Ryan Expressway. That' ; s what I remember in fact, was that when we moved to Chicago, they were just building the Dan Ryan Expressway. We were living, actually, with some relatives who were just off of the expressway. We used to run down there because at that time it was just a big hole in the ground. So, that was one of my first memories of the city, was just the construction that was going on there at that time. As I mentioned, it was an ethnically mixed area. It was partially Black. It was kind of Greek, Italian and Irish. Then I ended up, after a year or so, going to high school, Calumet High School on the South Side of Chicago. As I mentioned, the makeup of the school was fairly mixed. So, there was a certain amount of ethnic tension that was created as a result of that equal mixture of different ethnics at the same time. Mary Doi: Well, I really had no idea that there were Japanese American families living where you lived. I think more of them lived in what I think of as South Shore. I don' ; t know what the neighborhood was that I lived at, at 72nd and Stony, but I lived around my relatives and other Japanese Americans. So, I didn' ; t realize that we lived in sort of an ethnic neighborhood. For example, Asayo Horibe was the big girl that walked me to kindergarten. I had cousins. I had people like the Hayashis. Miyo Hayashi and her family lived down there. The Shigehiros, did you know them? They were all in the drum and bugle corps. William Yoshino: Well, I know of them. I know who they are now. Yes. Mary Doi: So kind of a nice extended family and other Japanese American kids in my class, but I see that you' ; re further south and further west from me. William Yoshino: Yeah. Yeah. I don' ; t ever remember seeing an Asian in that area or in my neighborhood at that time. In fact, I think at the high school that I attended, I think there was probably... I remember one Chinese American girl and then my brother, my younger brother. We were the only Asians in the entire school. So, it was a situation where I didn' ; t really then become even aware of what the Asian or the Japanese American community was until much later. Mary Doi: Yeah. Because I remember about that same time going to picnics at Rainbow Beach. I don' ; t know if this was a Kenjinkai thing or just a big family thing, but those to me were the memories that conjure up the ethnic community. William Yoshino: Yeah. Mary Doi: Well, that' ; s really interesting. I had no idea that you had this long series of migrations and ended up here in Chicago. So starting in 1978, I believe you became the JACL Midwest Director. Is that right? William Yoshino: That' ; s correct. Yes. Mary Doi: Okay. Where did you work before you started at the JACL? William Yoshino: I was teaching. I was teaching for the Chicago Public Schools. I taught at a school called Washington High School, which is on the far southeast side of Chicago in a community called Hegewisch. It was a community that formed out of the steel plants that were prevalent on the very, very far South Side of the city at that time. Then after that, I had taught at Fenger High School, which was... Fenger High School, which was on, what was it, about 111th Street and around Halsted, just Wallace Avenue basically, but just east of Halsted. That was my employment prior to working for the JACL. The story of that is kind of interesting, I think in some ways. I mean, it was my brother Ron, my older brother, had been somewhat active with the Chicago JACL. That' ; s kind of how I started some activity. I worked on the scholarship committee at that time because of my teaching background. During that period of time, the so-called governor of the Midwest District of JACL was Lillian Kimura. In ' ; 78, or I should say ' ; 77 I think or somewhere around there, the position of Midwest Director had become... or it was vacated. So, the national organization was looking for somebody to fill that spot. I kind of knew Lillian through my association with my volunteer work with the Chicago chapter. She started talking to me about it and finally pretty much twisted my arm and convinced me that it was an opportunity that I ought to take advantage of because I think she knew some of my interest having to do with being involved in public issues, specifically issues having to do with social justice. Excuse me. After a point, I just thought, well, that sounds like a good opportunity. And that' ; s how I became involved with... or I should say, that' ; s how I became employed by the JACL. So really, I think it was Lillian Kimura who was the one who was responsible for that, good or bad. Mary Doi: It was great, great that she twisted your arm. So thinking back to your early years at JACL, I know that this is the beginning of the Redress Movement in a way, 1978. Maybe the JACL had decided on going the commission route. I don' ; t exactly remember when that decision was made. But I' ; m interested in, before the Redress Movement, what were some of the major issues that the national JACL was dealing with in the mid-seventies, late seventies? Also, what was the Midwest district and Chicago, what were our issues? Do you remember? William Yoshino: Yeah. I mean, I think there were certain public policy issues that were out there. I mean, I think that the way that the JACL would become involved in issues is that things would happen out there in the environment and JACL would become involved in it. I think JACL, at least the way that I described it, was kind of a reactive organization in many ways. The Chicago JACL, I remember during the 1970s, became involved in the grape boycott issue that was taking place in California at that time. At that time, the grape growers had been organizing into a union through Cesar Chavez on the West Coast. It created a tension within JACL because you had many Nisei farmers in the Central Valley of California who would be affected by any type of grape strike, for example. So the Chicago JACL, kind of viewing it as a social justice issue, decided that they were going to take a stand supporting the right of the farm workers. That did cause quite a controversy within the JACL. It kind of evidenced, I think a sense that the Chicago JACL was very progressive in the way that it viewed social issues. I think too, at that time, that there had been discussion at the Chicago chapter level of opposing the war in Vietnam as well. You' ; re talking here about the early 1970s. So the chapter here was comprised of folks who were fairly progressive in their attitudes with regard to what could be viewed as civil liberties, social justice issues. I think though that the national JACL when I first became involved, I' ; m not sure that programmatically there was a whole lot on the table in my recollection. I think that part of what I did when I first came on board was to really assist the various JACL chapters in the Midwest to communicate with them, to try to keep them informed of what national JACL was doing, and then to provide assistance, as much assistance as I could at least, in the programs or activities that they would be engaged in. That' ; s why I was fairly active with a number of the various programs or issues, for example, that the Chicago JACL would be involved in. So that my role was really, at least from a national level, was to be involved in whatever grassroots efforts that the organization was involved in through its various chapters throughout the country. In the Midwest, there were nine chapters, Chicago being the largest. Then there were chapters in places like St. Louis, in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Dayton, Cleveland, Detroit and so forth. Mary Doi: Okay. Well, that' ; s really fascinating that you came in and that you' ; re characterizing Chicago even in the mid to late seventies as the very progressive chapter in the country. William Yoshino: Right. Yeah. Mary Doi: I had no idea. I graduated high school at Santa Maria High School in Santa Maria, California. I' ; d gone to lab school up until then. So, it was this huge dislocation from an urban school to this school with future farmers. I remember the lettuce growers strike. I remember that was a town that was big, had a Japanese American agricultural history. So, strawberries and lettuce were the things that Santa Maria really produced a lot of. So, it' ; s really interesting. And I applaud the JACL Chicago for taking the sides of the workers and pitting yourself against the Japanese American farmers. William Yoshino: Right. Yeah. Mary Doi: That' ; s cool. William Yoshino: I think part of that is due to the fact that in Chicago or at least with the Chicago JACL, I think that the Nisei generation at that particular time wanted to transition the chapter generationally, from the older generation to a younger generation. So, they were very welcoming of young participation on their board of directors. This is beginning in the late 1960s and then 1970s. So unlike many, many chapters, JACL chapters throughout the country, you had that transition from Nisei leadership to Sansei leadership occurring much earlier than their fellow chapters throughout the country. I think that' ; s part of the reason that you had this kind of progressive mindset, was because you had young folks who were coming out of an era of activism, the sixties and the seventies. Mary Doi: Yeah. I was talking to Katherine about this a little bit. I said, " ; People like you and me, we do have the Civil Rights Movement as part of our background, the anti-Vietnam protests and even the rise of ethnic studies." ; This is sort of the zeitgeist under which we grew up. I think it really influences how we see the world, how we see justice, starting with certainly the internment, resettlement and redress. I think that we' ; re a little cohort of people who luckily had mentors like Lillian Kimura, other leaders of the JACL Chicago, to welcome our input and our vitality and our interests. I think that' ; s great. You mentioned that the Midwest District has nine chapters. You enumerated some of them. Did you enumerate all of them? You said, let' ; s see, St. Louis, Minneapolis. Dayton, Cincinnati, Cleveland. William Yoshino: Detroit, Indianapolis. Mary Doi: Oh, Detroit? Okay, Detroit. William Yoshino: St. Louis. Mary Doi: Oh, Detroit. Okay. Detroit. William Yoshino: St. Louis. Mary Doi: Indianapolis. And was there any in Milwaukee? William Yoshino: In Milwaukee, yeah. Mary Doi: Okay. So when you started, were these nine chapters what comprised the Midwest? William Yoshino: That' ; s what comprised the Midwest when I became the Midwest director. Mary Doi: Okay. William Yoshino: Yes. Mary Doi: So there were no chapters added in order to help spread the word about redress. William Yoshino: That' ; s correct. Mary Doi: Okay. William Yoshino: Eventually, and I don' ; t recall the date, I think it' ; s somewhere in the 1990s, the Midwest district merged with what was called the Mountain Plains district. And so the Mountain Plains district was split so that chapters like Denver, for example, went to what was called the Inner Mountain district. And then chapters like Omaha and Houston became aligned with the Midwest district. So the Midwest district actually increased in size from, I think, nine to 11 chapters. Mary Doi: Okay. Yeah. I just had no sense of the distribution, the geographic distribution, or the timeline for the creation of chapters. And Eric Langowski thought that perhaps the Hoosier chapter might have been formed in order to help get the word out about redress, but I' ; m glad to hear that maybe that' ; s not quite the case. So how big was the JACL back in the late 1970s? William Yoshino: Late 1970s, I believe that the National JACL had a membership of about 20,000, thereabouts. Yeah. For some reason, the number 23,000 sticks in my head, but I don' ; t know at what date. That might have been sometime during the mid 1970s, but by the late 1970s, I think it was still probably right around 20,000. Mary Doi: Okay. And then how big was the Chicago chapter when you started? William Yoshino: Chicago chapter at that time was probably about 1800 to 2000. Mary Doi: And what is it today? Do you have any idea? William Yoshino: I don' ; t know. Mary Doi: Okay. William Yoshino: Yeah, I' ; d only be guessing. Mary Doi: Yeah. I can probably ask somebody about that. I want to ask a little bit about the broad brush strokes of redress. How did it become a national issue for the Japanese American Citizens League? William Yoshino: Well, I think it started in, I don' ; t know, I think you can probably attach certain starting days to all of this. There would be some that would say that the move for redress or reparations, depending on what form it would take, could have started during the war, during World War II, with people in the resistance, that type of thing. For JACL, I think if you look at it on a formal basis, it started at the 1970 convention when an individual named Edison Uno from San Francisco first introduced a resolution saying that the JACL ought to pursue the wartime camp issue in some form. It was discussed... the JACL would meet at a national convention every two years. And so in the interim, in ' ; 72, ' ; 74, ' ; 76, they would, you know, kind of, the issue of redress would kind of evolve until 1978, when the organization actually formulated a concrete position saying that the issue ought to be clearly recognized as one where constitutional rights were violated, and that that violation should come with compensation. And they put a number out there of $25,000 per individual. I don' ; t know whether they said interned or affected by, and we can talk about that later because there is clearly a difference in terms of the actual legislation that was finally adopted. And that there ought to be an apology associated with that. And so that came out of the convention in Salt Lake City in 1978, and that was in the summer of that year. And I was hired as the Midwest director, interestingly, in October of that same year, 1978. And so that was, I think, part of my motivation, in some ways, for wanting to become involved. Because you see an issue like this redress issue, and it' ; s how could you not? If you have any sense of community and any sense of social justice, to not be involved in something like that would be a missed opportunity, to say the least. Mary Doi: That' ; s really fascinating, just to hear the chronology of ' ; 70, ' ; 72, ' ; 74, ' ; 76, ' ; 78, you have a more concrete plan. And two main strategies seem to come to the forefront, maybe around that time. And one would be this direct appropriation, monetary redress for internees. And so who were the leading proponents for that? And then who were the leading opponents? William Yoshino: Yeah, I think when JACL first adopted the resolution at the Salt Lake City Convention, the idea was actually to go after monetary redress in a direct way, meaning get legislation in Congress that said $25,000, an apology, so forth. And what happened... and I think that was kind of the approach that the community looked to, because there had been people even outside of JACL, or even on the fringes of JACL, that had been talking about this whole notion of finding remedies for what happened during World War II. And so JACL gets itself tracked to begin implementing that 1978 resolution. And some of the leadership of JACL, specifically those who were involved in the redress issue, went out to Washington, DC, to meet with the members, the Japanese American members of Congress to really get a better handle on how all of this was going to get structured and what would take place. And it was at that meeting in Washington that Senator Daniel Inouye came up with a proposal or a suggestion at that point, that perhaps it might be more productive and better to form a federal commission first. Because his reasoning was that there were very few people within the American public, much less those members of Congress, who really knew anything about what had happened to Japanese Americans during World War II. So his thinking was that there needed to be an educational effort to take place before you could go to the next step. And so he proposed to this group of JACL leaders that they pursue the establishment of a federal commission to look into and investigate what had transpired during World War II, with respect to the Japanese American community. And so that became a dilemma for some who were on that committee, because they were thinking, going into all of this, that we were going to just go with legislation, a direct approach to redress. And so this kind of threw a little bit of a curveball into all of it. And so it actually did cause some controversy, even within the JACL because there were many within the organization who felt it was important just to pursue a pure form of redress. That' ; s what we' ; re here for. The discussion had always been that we were going to go after a direct compensation bill. Why should we bother with doing this so-called commission approach? Is this a deflection? What is all of this? So there were those who felt that it was really important, that there was good reasoning behind the whole notion of having a commission because how are you going to convince an ignorant public and certainly legislators who have no clue about this? That' ; s one part of it. The other part of it is that Inouye knew that federal commissions also come up with a set of recommendations. And these recommendations, if they' ; re the right recommendations, can carry a great deal of weight with legislators. And so I think there was that aspect of it too. So that kind of got thrown into the whole mix of this discussion on direct appropriations, and so it became a controversy that the community, and even the JACL, had to somehow reckon with. Mary Doi: So were the other Congress people, Spark Matsunaga, Mineta, and Matsui on board with the reasoning and the approach that Inouye is proposing? William Yoshino: I don' ; t know firsthand. From what I' ; ve read or with people I' ; ve talked to over the years, there may have been some hesitation among some of the members, but they fairly quickly came on board. After all, it' ; s Dan Inouye who is doing this, he is a senior Japanese American legislator at the time. He is the one who has, I guess, the friendships in Congress. And if you' ; re going to oppose Inouye, you' ; ve got to probably have a pretty good reason for doing so. But he obviously is the one who has the experience. He knows better than most how Congress works. He knew what the tenor, the temperament of his colleagues were, especially surrounding an issue like this. But I think in the end, he also felt that it would be advantageous for the community, just in terms of the educational effort involved. Mary Doi: Right. William Yoshino: But as I said, I think this came into direct opposition with those who were very bent on moving forward with legislation as speedily as possible. It' ; s kind of like one of these ideas, I think, of striking while the iron is hot. And so, as I mentioned, it did cause some controversy within the organization to the point, and I should say that there were factions within the JACL that were very, very strong, in terms of wanting to go the direct approach. There was a group out of the Seattle chapter who felt very strongly that direct compensation ought to be pursued, that it was more clearly in line with the resolution that had been passed out of the Salt Lake City Convention. And to the point, in fact, of getting a newly elected Congressman, Michael Lowry, to agree to introduce legislation in Congress almost immediately. So that was the dilemma that the organization was in at that time. And the way they resolved it was to take it to the chapters for a vote. That' ; s what it came down to. And the chapters did vote on it and narrowly agreed to go with the commission approach to redress. Mary Doi: So thinking back to Chicago, how did Chicago come to its decision and what was the decision? William Yoshino: I would need to look that up. I don' ; t totally recall. The reason I say that is because, number one, I don' ; t recall. But there was very str- ... Chicago, I think, was kind of a microcosm of what was taking place in the larger discussion across the Japanese American community in the country. As I mentioned, at that time, the chapter was fairly progressive, and you had some very outspoken, progressive individuals who were involved with the Chicago JACL at that time. You had Mike Yasutake, who was part of the board. You had people who were very, very outspoken in the community, like Bill Hohri was part of it. Quieter ones who nevertheless were not reluctant to make their feelings felt, like Nelson Kitsuse. And he was very, very, very progressive in his thinking. So it did cause quite a bit of discussion and controversy here in Chicago. I think I know which way the chapter went, but I don' ; t want to say it here on the record because I don' ; t know. I don' ; t recall for sure. But I think it was a fairly, it was closely decided, because I think that there were elements on both sides who were engaged in the discussion at the time. Mary Doi: Well, you mentioned Bill Hohri and Nelson Kitsuse. When I think about a different approach to redress, I think about NCJAR, National Coalition on Japanese American Redress, that I think of as Bill Hohri was the nominal leader in Chicago, but had been sort of schooled by the more progressive JACL in Seattle. And so in Chicago, we' ; ve got the JACL approach and we' ; ve got the NCJAR approach. And I don' ; t know whether JACL, by its history, by its national standing, sort of overshadowed Bill Hohri' ; s group, NCJAR, or whether through the force of personality and for the approach that he wanted to take, which was then, I guess, the legal approach, the class action lawsuit approach, whether Chicago felt like a place where there were two routes to go, and you could choose either to be one or the other, or people like a Sam Ozaki: both. And what are your thoughts on that? William Yoshino: Yeah, I don' ; t think that the JACL, the chapter here in Chicago had any, I don' ; t think that they were conflicted at all in terms of what directions they would go in. I think that the JACL chapter here knew that in the end it would pursue a legislative approach. I don' ; t think that the whole notion of pursuing this thing through the courts was one that had been defined at all in terms of the resolution that was passed at the Salt Lake City Convention. And I think that also too, I think in a practical sense, practical meaning where I think the thinking was that you would get a clear, a good result. I think that that was going to be had legislatively rather than through the court, judicially. So I don' ; t think that that was ever, you know there was never any controversy within the JACL about that at all. I think it was always clearly going to be legislative. I think, though, that, as you state, I think that there were some folks who were kind of open-minded on it, and who felt that if you' ; re going to find a remedy, that perhaps it would be good to look at all possible remedies. And so that' ; s why Bill Hohri' ; s approach on it became viable to many. And I think that even within JACL, there were those who felt that this was an approach too, because it showed the seriousness by a community to pursue this issue, that it wasn' ; t going to be one avenue when you could have multiple approaches to it. And so I think that, as much as the judicial approach that Hohri took, it didn' ; t last a long time because it did find its way through the courts, and the courts generally work very slowly, but this issue moved within a few years. But what it succeeded in doing, I think, was to bring attention even more so to the issue. And I think, for a time, that there was a sense that perhaps this would be successful in a way, because the facts surrounding the approach were certainly there. Even though as we find out later on through the various court- as we knew through the various court cases, and Korematsu, Hirabayashi, and Yasui, all those cases had been lost, but in the end, the Endo case had affirmed the rights of citizenship and that without due process, you couldn' ; t take away those rights. And so certainly I think the facts and the evidence were on the side of Hohri in that case, and were it not for things like sovereign immunity and statute of limitations, perhaps they could have won that thing. Mary Doi: As part of my background, I decided, oh, I' ; m going to read the Chicago Shimpo. Only, the digitization of the Shimpo is available through 1984. So I' ; m reading the Shimpo, every issue from 1980 to 1984. And maybe in ' ; 83, the JACL becomes a friend of the court for the Hohri case, the Hohri argument. And I thought, this really is showing cooperation that there are going to be multiple ways that redress can be sought. Which brings me to a third approach, which is the NCRR, the National Coalition of Redress and Reparations. And when I was in San Francisco, that was the group that I was a little bit attached to. And I did it mainly because a woman there named Satsuki Tashima, I don' ; t know if you knew her, was very active in kimochi. And I became Satsuki' ; s friend. And so I just kind of followed her to the things that she did. Since then, I' ; ve often wondered, was there an NCRR presence in Chicago? So I talked to people like John Ota, who I know was very involved, and Kathy Masaoka, who was also very involved in NCRR. And I said, was there a chapter in Chicago? And neither of them can remember anything. Do you know if there was ever any effort, did NCRR try to penetrate Chicago? Or was it a case where, again, the Midwest is skipped over and it' ; s a West Coast thing, a little bit of East Coast presence too, and we are just this non-entity? William Yoshino: Yeah, in terms of NCRR, I don' ; t know that there was really ever any attempt to form any type of chapter or movement in Chicago or in any of the other major cities in the Midwest, or for that matter, on the East Coast. So it was, I was aware of NCRR because I would travel out to California quite a bit, and I always saw that as more of a California movement. One that found its roots in the labor movement, basically out of San Francisco, I believe. And then it grew to, went to other cities, specifically to L.A/, but I kind of always, I guess, saw it as a group that was and became a part, more, of the California scene than elsewhere. Mary Doi: Okay. Well, you' ; ve often talked about the importance of the Midwest district for the JACL legislative approach, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that. Who were the Congress people in the Midwest that really became strong allies for redress, and then who were the opponents in the Midwest that were equally strong in their positions? Can you talk a little bit about that? William Yoshino: Yeah. First of all, the Midwest, I think, became an important area simply because of the geography. The Midwest, although there were only nine chapters, just in terms of geographic area, it probably represented or it probably housed more representation in Congress when you compare it to other JACL districts. Because the other JACL districts were basically the West Coast, so Washington, Oregon, California, so you had representation out of California at that time. It might have been, I don' ; t know, 40 or so, 30, 40 members of Congress. But if you look in the Midwest, if you look at the Midwest states, you' ; d have quite a few members of Congress who come from the what seven, eight, nine states that are represented by the JACL Midwest chapters. And I think one of the interesting things too is that in some of these smaller towns like... Or I should say smaller cities, like Milwaukee or Dayton, they had ready access to their members of Congress. It' ; s smaller, it' ; s more local, and so they were able to engage more. Here in Chicago, congressmen like Sid Yates, Sid Yates was always a friend to the JA community. That had come about because when Sid was first elected, and I think that was probably back in 1948, there were Nisei who were involved in his campaign, in his election, and I think he always saw the Japanese American community as one of his allies. Apart from the whole notion that Sid is Jewish, he totally understands the oppression of minority groups, that type of thing. And I think you had that type of situation in some of these other JACL chapters in the Midwest. That' ; s not to say you didn' ; t have the same thing elsewhere, but you definitely had it here in the Midwest because I know I would talk to our redress representatives in places like Cleveland or in Milwaukee, or some of the other chapters, and they knew who their members of Congress were and they could talk to them and they were supportive. Which is important because what you' ; re asking these members of Congress to do is to prevail on their colleagues to be supportive of issues. In Congress, it' ; s like any place else, you' ; re going to outreach to your allies, to your friends, and you' ; re going to convince them to be supportive of the kinds of things that are of interest to you. That' ; s basically how it works. And so, of course we would ask Sid Yates and others to outreach to their colleagues. This became especially important in trying to find co-sponsorship to the legislation. What you want to do in the end is once you get a bill introduced you have the major sponsors to the bill, but then you want to add on co-sponsors to the bill so that at some point, in the House at least, if you have 100, if you' ; re approaching 200 co-sponsors to the legislation and you only have 18 more to get, well that' ; s pretty good. And so that' ; s the whole idea behind it. So you did have that. I think you had members who were close to their representatives, but at the same time ...And one of those in the end was John Glenn, for example, in Ohio. We had people in the various chap-, we had three chapters in Ohio, Dayton, Cincinnati and Cleveland, and so John Glenn was the chair of the General Operations Committee where the Senate bill was housed. And so we would have our JACL chapter members outreach to Glenn, write letters, call the office, try to get a meeting with him, that sort of thing, so that became important. Here in Chicago, it' ; s kind of interesting that at that time Charles Percy was the senator and Tsune Nakagawa was his office manager, and I remember going to Tsune and saying, " ; Gosh. Can you get us a meeting with the senator?" ; And of course she did. Even before we even met with Percy she was probably talking to him and saying, " ; You' ; ve got to do this and here' ; s why." ; That sort of thing. So I remember meetings of that sort. I remember that Chiye Tomihiro was very, very involved in the whole redress effort here. She was one of the key individuals. And I remember that there was a time where you also had to get Republicans on this thing, so we would try to figure out how are we going to get some of these more moderate Republicans? And I remember John Porter was a congressman up in the 10th District at that time, and we didn' ; t know John Porter, but Chiye found somebody who knew his chief fundraiser, and so I remember going to a meeting. I don' ; t remember what that person' ; s name was, but we figured any avenue that we can find, let' ; s try to do that, and let' ; s get to a person who' ; s influential, who can talk to the member. And so we talked to the... And I don' ; t know if we had anything to do with it, but Porter eventually voted for the legislation. You had people like John Erlenborn, who was a member of Congress, I think his district was somewhere up in the northwest suburbs or the northern suburbs. And we had found out that I think it was during the war, his family had taken on an individual from Los Angeles as a... had sponsored a person out of camp. And so we had found that out. And so we located that person in L.A. and asked that individual to talk to John Erlenborn, and Erlenborn eventually supported it. What that tells you is that personal contacts, personal experience that a congressman might have had with somebody from the community, all of these things become important at some point. And so that' ; s how all of this came about. That' ; s how you played this. There was the letter writing where we would have a redress representative out of each of the chapters, they had specific tasks. Number one, they would raise money for the redress effort, but then they would outreach. They would go to their members and they would figure out which of their members were in whose congressional district, and then have them write letters to that particular, their members of Congress, hoping that that representative would listen to that constituent that they had. We also knew that there were people who weren' ; t favorable. There was a guy named Tom Kindness who was a congressman out of the Cincinnati area. I forget, he had been associated with some major company out of the Cincinnati area at the time, but he also counted among his friends Karl Bendetsen, who was one of the individuals who actually was responsible for the drafting of the executive order, the order that Roosevelt signed that caused the implementation of the removal from the West Coast. And so there were individuals like that that were also within the Midwest district. Now, Tom Kindness is not somebody who eventually voted for the bill, because he was heavily influenced by Karl Bendetsen, but that' ; s the way things go sometimes. Mary Doi: I think this is a great example of what does lobbying look like, that there' ; s high level letter writing, fundraising, but it' ; s also that one-to-one touch. William Yoshino: I think it always is, in the end that' ; s what it comes down to. Because I think in the end, at a national level that' ; s key. But I think that, you can' ; t substitute, I think, some of the work that was done by the Nikkei members of Congress on this too, because they were the ones in the end who were working with their fellow colleagues. So I know that on the Senate bill without Spark Matsunaga was the, from all that I' ; ve heard and all that I' ; ve read, and with those who I' ; ve talked to have, and even Dan Inouye had said that Spark was the one who really moved this thing in the Senate. He had, I think, made a decision early on that he was going to talk to each and every one of his colleagues in the Senate on this thing, and so he' ; s the one who I think was most directly responsible for getting the Senate to act on this. He was that committed to it. So, it' ; s much harder in the House. You' ; ve got 435 members, so for at that time, for Norm Mineta or for Bob Matsui, it' ; s a much more difficult thing. But people like Mineta had good relationships with folks like Jim Wright, who was the speaker of the house at that time. And so getting Jim Wright to be a co-sponsor of the bill, and the speaker doesn' ; t usually sponsor legislation, unless it' ; s their own thing, but things like that became critical as well. Mary Doi: Wow. Well, so thinking back to the significant role that the Midwest played in the Redress Movement, was this the first time that the Midwest had really come to the forefront as a region that was really important to engage in the redress efforts? I don' ; t know if earlier legislation, say in 1952, the Midwest was a powerhouse or not. William Yoshino: Yeah, I think that there was a committee called the Anti-Discrimination Committee, which was formed in the late 1940s. And it was the committee that eventually, they were the group through JACL that pushed the Walter McCarran Act of 1952, which provided naturalization rights for the Issei. The Chicago chapter, and I' ; m pretty sure that the entire Midwest, was very active in that campaign. I' ; ve gone through some of the files on that, as well as I' ; ve, in talking to people like Shig Wakamatsu, who is kind of an interesting person in his own right, but in many, many conversations I had had with Shig over the years. And Shig used to come into the office on a regular basis almost during the entire time that I was the Midwest director for a variety of reasons. Number one, he was the chairman, chairperson of the Japanese American Research Project, which produced... Or their goal was to produce a history of the Japanese American experience in the United States. So that became the publishing arm, and they became especially effective when they went into partnership with UCLA on all of that. But aside from that, Shig was also a member of the JACL Legislative Education Committee. He was its treasurer, and that was the group that, in the end, the JACL relied upon as its lobbying arm to move the redress issue through Congress. So Shig had a huge, huge hand in all of that. Mary Doi: So is the Midwest district still important in terms of congressional action? Or have we taken up more of a backseat- William Yoshino: And, well, just to pick up a little bit more on Shig. Mary Doi: Okay. William Yoshino: So it was through conversations I had with him where I learned about the work of this Anti-Discrimination Committee in the late 1940s and the 1950s. And they became very crucial, I think, to the effort of getting that legislation passed in 1952. So they became engaged very early on in their life, meaning the chapter' ; s life, because the chapter had been formed here what in 1945 or so, and so almost from the get-go, the JACL chapter was involved in not just the legislative kind of thing, but they were involved in voter registration, that sort of thing, to get the community involved in public policy kinds of issues that affected the community. So I think that the chapter had that engagement very early on. So by the time redress comes around, you had people who had gone through all of that from an early age, because at that point, what, the Nisei are in their thirties and forties, just after the war. So you did have an experienced group by the time we get to the 1970s. And they had also been through so much, just in terms of being part of a group that had been marginalized, oppressed in many ways when they were on the West Coast, and so they felt all of that. They knew all of that. And I think that many of them who became active had been on this mission their entire lives. Certainly people like Chiye Tomihiro, or you look at people like Sam Ozaki, who he didn' ; t attach himself to JACL, but he was certainly involved in the issues of the organization, but there were many others, like Shig Wakamatsu who certainly knew of the history of the community and had felt the tinge of racism in their formative years, and who wanted to seek ways to remedy these wrongs in the past. Mary Doi: When you mentioned these names, I know some of them, but I only know some of them by name, and I' ; m just so damn proud of the Nisei, just hearing these stories, hearing what Chiye especially, I knew Chiye, but I didn' ; t really know Shig Wakamatsu, but wow, in their prime, these were such strong movers and shakers. William Yoshino: Yeah, they were. And I think the important thing about them too is that they were people who knew that they had to go outside of their community. I think that the Japanese American community had always been an insular community, not because... That was forced upon them in many ways. But you had people, I think, who reached out to other communities and knew that progress wasn' ; t going to be made internally. It had to be done through external contacts and through external persuasion. And you have those people. And- Mary Doi: Do you think the Midwest, Chicago really was an exemplar area in terms of Japanese Americans realizing that they had to reach beyond the community? That in order to affect legislation, you have to form coalitions, you have to, whether it' ; s Ross Harano working with the Jewish Committee, this David Roth fellow, I don' ; t remember what committee it is, but it seemed like he had, Ross has allies that are not within the ethnic community, but maybe within other ethnic groups, so he could reach out to the Polish community or the Jewish community. William Yoshino: Yeah, no, I think that became inherent within the way in which the JA community, through the JACL, operated from the outset. You had, as I mentioned, folks like Shig, folks like Nobi Honda, for example, some of the early leaders who reached out to the places like the Chicago Commission on Human Relations, for example. An agency that' ; s been there since the 1940s, as far as I know, but who reached out to them. And then too, reaching out, as I mentioned, to members of Congress, local politicians, that sort of thing. I' ; m not going to say that they had an easy inroad to everyone, I think it was... But they worked at it, and I think they saw it as being important to reach out as part of a kind of a survival mechanism for the community. I think in the end, there may have been efforts on the part of the government to disperse the community within Chicago, but I think at the same time the community was stubborn enough to know that it had to come together as a community, that it had to create its own institutions, but not to be blinded to the idea that you couldn' ; t interact, but that you had to interact with others. And so I think that beginning in the fifties with this anti-discrimination committee, and then as issues came up, that these leaders could easily reach out to others. And I think they passed that type of strategy onto to the Sanseis. You mentioned Ross Harano, and I remember that Ross introduced me to this... You mentioned David Roth. I became good friends with David and David, he was part of the American Jewish Committee and had formed this organization called the Illinois Ethnic Coalition. And it was a gathering of as many of the ethnic groups as you could name in the city, and so it formed a broad coalition. And so anytime that an issue came up, whether it was in the Italian American community or the Japanese American community, we would bring the concern to David and to the Illinois Ethnic Coalition, and they would listen and become allies to the cause. One of the important things in the whole redress effort was to get resolutions of support from various organizations, from government entities, labor unions, churches, you name it, because this became a way in which you show broad-based support for your issues. So we would go to the American Jewish Committee, we would go to David Roth and the Illinois Ethnic Coalition, and get these various organizations to endorse by resolution the whole redress effort, and specifically those bills in Congress. And through inroads that we had made, I remember going to the Chicago City Council and getting the city council to get a resolution passed, get a proclamation from the mayor to support the redress efforts. So all these different ways of outreaching from the outside became very, very important to the entire campaign. Mary Doi: Do you think in some ways that Chicago, and the Midwest, was especially adept at reaching out beyond the community? Sometimes I hear, well, " ; Chicagoans are different, Midwesterners are different." ; And I' ; m trying to delineate how those differences might be expressed, and some of the things you' ; re giving as examples, kind of. William Yoshino: Yeah. I can only cite the examples. I' ; m not a sociologist, I don' ; t know how those things work scientifically, but certainly I don' ; t... And I don' ; t know if those who remained in Chicago tended to be more adventurous of spirit or whatever it was in their DNA that caused them to want to stay and to seek out a new beginning in a different place. But certainly those early leaders, I think, evidenced an attitude that wasn' ; t one that was insular in any way. It was one that caused them to reach out in many ways. And some of them were ones that became successful in business in a larger way. I remember pre-war, a lot of the businesses and the people that were successful were successful in the community and they had their businesses in the community. But here in Chicago, you couldn' ; t totally rely on that. Yeah, you did have restaurants maybe that catered to the community, or you might have had a business or two, like a grocery store that catered to the community, but you had many others whose business caused them to have to reach out if they were going to succeed. And I think they brought that same attitude to the organizations they became involved in within the community. Mary Doi: Great. This is wonderful. This is wonderful. I' ; m going to skip a little bit ahead in my questions because you' ; ve just been so eloquent. You know the timeline for the redress hearings and all that. But I' ; m really interested in what was it like to be in that room when the Chicago hearings are happening. I don' ; t really have any firsthand perspective, not as a testifier, but as someone in the audience. So if you wouldn' ; t mind talking a little bit about that, and I' ; m going to give you ways to think about it. I know that in September, 1981, the hearings were in Chicago at Northeastern Illinois University. Did you attend? William Yoshino: I did attend, yes. Mary Doi: Okay. So I' ; m going to ask you to paint the picture of what it was like for you to be at that hearing. And I' ; d like to start with something very concrete and move to the more abstract. So for example, what was the meeting space like? How big was it? How many people were there? William Yoshino: Yeah. The Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians hearing was held at Northeastern Illinois University. Part of the reason, as I understand it, why it was there was because the commission staff actually had first looked at some venues that were actually smaller. And I think based upon some of the West Coast hearings, they saw what the interest was and the size of the audiences that were interested in attending. And I think that the commission knew that they had to find a large... they had looked at places like the ceremonial courtroom, federal courtroom down at the, I think it was the Dirksen Federal Building. And so they knew they had to find a larger space. And so it ended up being at Northeastern Illinois University in a large... it was just a large space. In the end, they set up chairs for the audience and you had the tables and the dais and all of that stuff up front. But it was a space that could probably house easily about several hundred people and they needed all of that room because I think that that' ; s the one thing, that was one of the, I think the first impression I had was just the enormity of the space. Are all these seats going to get filled? That question comes up. And it did. The audiences throughout the entire two days were audiences that filled, I think just about every seat. So it was just, and it was, they were mainly from the community, JAs from the community. You had others who attended as well, just people who were curious about what this was all about. But you had a huge representation of Japanese Americans attending these hearings, which was the case in all of the, most of the other hearing sites as well. So that' ; s the first impression. And I think the other impression that I' ; m left with is that the representation of the members of the commission themselves. I think you had all but, I don' ; t know, I want to say one or two present at some point during the hearing. So you had good attendance. You had Edward Brooke, a former senator, you had Arthur Goldberg, a former justice of the Supreme Court, the chair, Joan Bernstein was there. Bill Marutani, the lone Japanese American member of the commission was there. And I think Robert Drinan, Father Robert Drinan, who was a member of Congress at the time, was there. So you had a representation of the more notable members of the commission. And so I think that was kind of impressive as well, because they didn' ; t all attend at all of the sites. I think they tried to, but it was kind of hit or miss. Mary Doi: Do you know why maybe it happened that they tried to make an effort to be in Chicago? Was there anything special, or- William Yoshino: It could have been proximity to Washington for one thing. That' ; s a possibility. Mary Doi: What kind of media coverage was there? William Yoshino: There was good media coverage. I don' ; t remember exactly what the setups were. I think we had set up areas for the media. So you had cameras, I think one of the sides, along the side of the audience. And I think too, just by the amount of media coverage you had, that kind of shows, I think that you had a media that was interested. So back then, you had press, you had newspapers. I don' ; t know, today newspapers are kind of a dying kind of communications vehicle, but back then you had this Tribune, you had the Sun-Times, you had The Daily News out there, and then you had, I think some of these smaller outlets too that showed up. And then you had all of the major television... excuse me, networks at that time who showed up as well, so that there was strong media coverage. And I think this was also in part because you had had a lot of national coverage prior to that. And so that kind of interested the local media in this as well. But we were sending out press releases and media alerts all during the lead up to this. We, meaning the JACL were fairly active in trying to get that local coverage. So I think at that time you had even local columnists who were writing columns about it. And I' ; m sure the Tribune, and I' ; m sure the Sun-Times had editorialized about it as well. You' ; d probably have to go back to the file to see what the clippings were, go back during that period to see whether or not, but I' ; m almost certain that all the newspapers during that time had editorialized, and probably favorably, about the issue. So this was all part though of going back to what Dan Inouye had talked about -- about using the commission to generate public awareness about the Japanese American experience during World War II, because the senator knew that there would be a series of hearings across the country. He knew there would be hearings in Washington, D.C. and he knew that that was going to generate interest and that it would become the educational vehicle that many of us, we weren' ; t aware of the enormity in terms of the attraction that it would present for the issue. But he knew, so he was right in that respect. And so that became very, very important. And so I think the last element though of the hearings were the testimonies themselves. And just seeing people you knew or people who you didn' ; t know, who had the courage to go and really tell their stories and pour out their hearts and their feelings about what had happened to them during a very traumatic and dark period of their lives. I think about it now and I still... it' ; s just, you just get wrapped with the emotion of all of that. So I mean, there obviously are testimonies that you remember and if they were compelling to me, they had to be compelling to those people who were sitting up on that dais, who were the members of the commission listening to all of this. So it' ; s credit to all of those witnesses who testified, because in the end, I think if anyone won redress for the community, they were those folks who told their stories because the stories became the crux of the issue itself. Because the stories, I think, encapsulated every aspect of what had transpired, whether it was Min Yasui talking about the violation of rights to someone like Chiye Tomihiro talking about the shame that she felt when some of her classmates came to visit her at the assembly center in Portland, and that she had to talk to them through the barbed wire. So it was stories like that that I think that won the day and captured the issue for the community. It' ; s really, really kind of hard to talk about a lot of that. I remember Helen Murao, who was, she was orphaned, her parents died during the 1930s, and then she had an older sister who passed away, I think it was tuberculosis, just at the outset of the war. So she and her... she had two younger sisters, and so they were kind of like orphans. And so they went to camp and Helen, who I think was probably maybe about 15 or 16 years old at that time, became the person in her family who became responsible for her two siblings. And I mean, I can' ; t imagine just the anxiety and the fear and the stress that she felt as a teenager having to shoulder that type of responsibility. And I remember in her later writings and testimony how she talked about when she was released from the camp, she said that she went to the train station and she said that the very first thing she did was to buy a bottle of Coke, Coca-Cola. And she said that it wasn' ; t so much the Coke, she said it was the freedom to buy it. So I mean, it' ; s that kind of exhilaration that she felt, despite all that she had been through, she knew or could speak to the importance of her being out of that camp. So that became very, very important to her. One of the things we were able to do that too, in terms of the hearing was we wanted to get other people from the Midwest to also appear as witnesses because we didn' ; t want this just to be a Chicago hearing where there were only Chicago people serving as witnesses. And so one of the things I tried to do was to outreach to all the various chapters, encouraging them to find individuals who would be willing to testify. One of those individuals was someone named Toaru Ishiyama, who was a psychologist from Cleveland. I think he was actually became the director of mental health for the state of Ohio during his career. Very accomplished man. But I remember Toaru talking about how the record, there was almost no record of the psychological trauma that had occurred to this population that had been incarcerated 40 years prior to that. That he said he had gone through the literature and he saw virtually nothing when he said that the psychiatrist' ; s office should have been filled with these people because of the trauma that they had experienced. And he talked about the whole notion of abandonment and how these people had been abandoned by their own government. And he said that he tried to deflect all of that when he was in camp himself. He said that one of the ways he did it was that he never went near the barbed wire. He never looked at the barbed wire. He always stayed far within the camp because he said that " ; if I don' ; t see the barbed wire, it' ; s not there and I' ; m not being confined" ; . And he went on to say that " ; what happens when a child is abandoned" ; ? He says, " ; the child cries" ; . And he said, that' ; s why during the 1980s, he would say that " ; at these reunions, these people go back and the first thing they do is they cry and they cry," ; he says, and the reason for it is because he said they didn' ; t cry in 1942. So I thought that that kind of was just a very eloquent expression of the trauma that those folks had gone through. Mary Doi: This is so wonderful, Bill. I' ; ve listened to some oral histories. But there might have been some kind of workshop maybe in the late 80s, early 90s where people like Chiye Tomihiro was part of this in giving oral history, and Bill Hohri and his wife and Bill Marutani, the judge. And what struck me about Bill' ; s interview was how he talked about, as someone who can hear this testimony in such a different way than the rest of the commissioners that he said he would have to literally swallow his emotion and at the end of the day, he would have a sore throat. I don' ; t know if it was a metaphor, but I can just put myself in his position, how it must have been so hard to sit through, I don' ; t how many days the hearings lasted, just swallowing your emotion and hearing your story, hearing your account of what it was like for you. I just got that same sense that you' ; re absorbing it, that you' ; re feeling it. And so you probably were not the only Sansei in the audience who were... whatever. You call yourself a Sansei, or do you call yourself a Nisei or whatever. But you weren' ; t only person that was having this kind of response. So at the end of the day, would you ever get together with other friends from the audience or other people your age and talk about what it was like to be in that room? William Yoshino: I never did. Well, I mean, I talked to some individuals. I remember that I would talk to some of my colleagues about the experience of being in that room. I remember John Tateishi, for example, had come out to view the hearings. I think he went to all the hearings, and I' ; m sure we had conversations after that about what took place. I don' ; t remember or recall specific discussions or conversations that I had. I mean I think that, I suppose it probably would' ; ve been easier to talk to some of the Sansei after that. I think it would' ; ve been hard talking to some of the Nisei who had given their testimonies because it was kind of walking on eggshells in a lot of different ways. So I think that most of what I recall was to just do more idle chat with people, and I don' ; t know whether or not that was kind of exhibiting kind of a defense mechanism to not want to face head on some of these things. I know afterwards, I mean, I would talk to people, and this is like years later, I would talk to people like Chiye about her experiences when we were more removed from the emotion of the hearing itself, that kind of thing. So I mean, I don' ; t think that Chiye was ever removed from that emotion, but certainly I could kind of distance myself from it a little bit. And I would talk to people like Shig Wakamatsu about their experiences of the time. And I remember talking to people like Sam Ozaki, because I used to ask Sam to go out and speak here or speak there. And same thing with Chiye and many others. And they were always very obliged. They felt obliged to do that. But yeah, no, I think the only time, I guess my catharsis to all of this has always been to just go out and speak to groups and to confront it that way. And I think that' ; s probably the way that I' ; ve kind of been able to confront all of this stuff. I mean, I think you have to do it in some sort of an expressive way. And for me that' ; s been the way I' ; ve expressed it. Mary Doi: Well, I really appreciate this interview, this opportunity to talk to you and just hear what it was like both as a staff member and then as an audience member and to hear the arc of how you' ; re able to tell this story. It' ; s going to be such a unique perspective that you' ; re bringing that I just can' ; t thank you enough for talking with us. And I know we could go on forever, but I think it' ; s about time that we wrap up now. So again, I just want to thank you so much, Bill. This has been wonderful. William Yoshino: You' ; re welcome. Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YoshinoWilliam20221206.xml YoshinoWilliam20221206.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/5 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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<a href="https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/2731" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Oral History Interview: Yoshino, Ron (2/7/2023)</a>
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Yoshino, William (12/6/2022)
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William Yoshino, a Sansei whose parents were incarcerated at Heart Mountain, descibes his family's wartime experience and his own experience moving from Washington State to Chicago's South Side as a teenager. In this interview, he reflects on his involvement with the JACL's Chicago chapter and his role as the JACL's Midwest Director beginning in 1978. He recalls that in Chicago, JACL leadership passed from the Nisei generation to the Sansei generation relatively early, perhaps leading the chapter to be more progressive than others. He recalls campaigns prior to the Redress movement that helped JACL members hone their lobbying and organizing skills, shares details about the JACL's Redress strategies, and describes some of the interracial coalition building that proved to be effective in Chicago. He concludes with detailed recollections about the Chicago CWRIC hearings in 1981, particularly the selection of the location, coverage by news media, and his personal experience as a member of the audience hearing the witnesses give testimony.
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2022-12-06
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Doi, Mary
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yoshino, Ron
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YoshinoRon20230207.xml
Interview Keyword
Sansei
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL
Chicago Redress Committee
JACL National Convention
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
CWRIC Hearings
Heart Mountain
OHMS Object Text
5.4 2/7/2023 Yoshino, Ron (2/7/2023) 1:08:37 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Sansei Japanese American Citizens League JACL Chicago Redress Committee JACL National Convention Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians CWRIC Hearings Heart Mountain Yoshino, Ron Doi, Mary video 1:|10(14)|33(2)|51(6)|62(12)|80(1)|100(7)|107(12)|116(8)|130(6)|143(8)|162(3)|173(13)|183(12)|194(5)|211(5)|220(7)|233(4)|244(13)|258(14)|270(14)|291(4)|301(9)|312(5)|322(1)|340(2)|352(14)|361(2)|368(1)|377(7)|385(8)|393(4)|418(7)|434(15)|449(3)|459(12)|482(2)|497(9)|508(2)|518(4)|533(8)|543(4)|558(11)|571(4)|580(7)|598(12)|615(13)|624(11)|636(9)|645(14)|659(16)|674(9)|692(18)|708(10)|724(8)|739(3)|752(16)|763(9)|771(15)|785(13)|793(11)|801(4)|813(2)|820(9)|832(4)|844(6)|859(2)|871(8)|888(3) 0 https://vimeo.com/824882778 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/824882778" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Ron Yoshino, a Chicago-born Sansei, discusses his involvement in the JACL's Redress efforts and his role as Chairperson for the JACL's 1986 National Convention in Chicago. He recalls the effort that went into logistics and planning for the Chicago CWRIC hearings, and describes his experience as an audience member and the emotional impact of of the witnesses' testimonies. He remembers his father receiving a reparations check in 1990 at the age of 83 and his decision to place the money in a 5-year CD. In closing, he reflects on the psychological effects of incarceration that still impact the Japanese American community and on his efforts to use his organizational skills to contribute to the work of the JACL. Mary Doi: Today is February 7th, 2023. This oral history is being recorded at the JACL Chicago office, located at 5415 North Clark Street in Chicago. The interviewer is Mary Doi. The interviewee is Ron Yoshino. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. This interview will differ from a normal conversation in that I won' ; t use verbal cues and responses. Instead, I' ; ll use facial expressions to communicate my interest in what you' ; re saying because it makes for a cleaner transcript. You can decline to answer any question without giving a reason. You can take breaks whenever you need them. You can end the interview at any point. So, please make sure your cell phone is silenced. Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: And I realize I, I didn' ; t get a little background on you. So when were you born, where were you born and did you, what camp was your family in? Ron Yoshino: I was born on July 4th, 1944 here in Chicago, and my parents were in Heart Mountain, Wyoming. Mary Doi: So were you in camp? Ron Yoshino: No, I was born in Chicago. Mary Doi: Okay. Oh, that' ; s right. That' ; s what you said. Okay. Ron Yoshino: I can give you a little history of how my folks got here if you' ; d like. Mary Doi: No, I' ; m trying to keep this to-- Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: So this interview has four main sections. The first will be your involvement with the JACL Chicago chapter before Redress, your involvement during the Redress Movement, the road to legislation, and then the afterlife of the Redress Movement. So some of these we' ; ll go through rather quickly-- Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: --so we can really focus on your involvement during the Redress Movement and then the road to legislation. Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: Sound okay? So when did you join the JACL? Ron Yoshino: I joined around 1971 I, I would guess. I was, I called-- Back then the JACL office was at 21 West Elm Street. I called, I think Ross Harano answered the phone. I told him I was interested in getting involved and he immediately signed me up to be on the board at that point in time. Mary Doi: What made you interested in getting involved? Ron Yoshino: I just wanted to be involved with the Japanese American community. At that point in time, I really never had any contact with the Japanese American community, so, it was an opportunity to get involved. And, and JACL was a national organization, and I knew of them. So I called here at the local office and met with Ross, well, I didn' ; t meet with Ross, I talked to him and got involved. It might' ; ve been 1970 instead of 1971, but it was in that time period. Mary Doi: Where did you live when you got involved? South side? North side? Suburbs? Ron Yoshino: You know I... I may have been involved earlier than 1970 because I got married in 1970. So I got involved, I must have gotten involved back in 1968 or 1969 when I called up Ross Harano. But in any case, I got involved, and they had a group called the YJA, Young Japanese Americans. And at that point in time, I met a lot of other young people that, that were in their 20s that were involved with the JACL at that point in time. I think Ross was one of the people that was instrumental in setting up that organization, that subset of the Japanese American Citizens League. Mary Doi: Okay. Were your parents members? Ron Yoshino: No. Mary Doi: Okay. Ron Yoshino: My parents were not members. Mary Doi: And when you joined, you mentioned that, that there was a social component, the YJA? Ron Yoshino: Yes. Mary Doi: Were there a lot of Sanseis involved in that? And then in the board? Ron Yoshino: There were a lot of them involved in the social activity portion of it, and... But only a few... If there were a dozen people, maybe only two or three were involved with the board. Mary Doi: Okay. So you mentioned that when you come on or when you joined, you got put on the board? Ron Yoshino: Well I, you know, this is over, probably closer to over 50 years ago, and I don' ; t remember the details, but I think that Ross wanted... They were looking for people to be involved on the board, and I think that I, I got involved and was on the board at that point in time. Mary Doi: Okay, that' ; s fine. And then-- Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember who were the other Sansei on the board with you? Ron Yoshino: You know I, I really don' ; t remember. The only thing that I remember was that Hiroshi, I think Hiroshi Kano was the president of the chapter. And at that point in time, he was involved with a lot of social-- not social activities, but civil rights activities. And he was involved with the... The union guys, the farm workers, United Farm Workers, and he wanted to become involved in their cause. And as a result of that, we, he got the Chicago Chapter Board of Directors to become involved with the United Farm Workers Organization. And as a result of all of that, the Chicago-- not the Chicago Nisei, but the central California Nisei farmers were on the opposite side of that. And they got very upset that Chicago was involved with the United Farm Workers, and they sent a representative out here, and they had a long discussion at the Japanese American Service Committee, I remember. And nothing was resolved with that. They didn' ; t convince Hiroshi Kano to not be involved with the United Farm Workers. And as a matter of fact, the 1972 JACL National Convention was held in Washington DC, and Hiroshi Kano went to Washington DC, as the representative of the Chicago Chapter, promoted the United Farm Workers at the convention. I don' ; t know the details of that, ' ; cause I wasn' ; t there, but I' ; m pretty sure they rejected the whole idea of becoming involved with the farm workers. And as a result of that, Hiroshi was not very happy. He came back to Chicago, resigned as president of the Chicago Chapter, and asked me to be president of the chapter at that point in time. So that was my early involvement with JACL. Mary Doi: Well, that United Farm Workers story is a great one. I had no idea that there was that kind of social activism in the chapter. What about-- Ron Yoshino: Well, it was basically Hiroshi Kano. Mary Doi: Okay. So you, yourself, were you involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s or the anti-Vietnam protests in the 60s and 70s? Ron Yoshino: No, I mean, I was not happy with the fact that everyone, all the people my age, were getting drafted and going to Vietnam and everything, and not for a reason that I thought it was worth dying over. So certainly, I was not happy with that situation, but I, I didn' ; t get actively involved. I just, my biggest involvement was hoping that my draft number was high. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Well, the other thing that' ; s going on in Chicago in the late 70s, and it seems to-- it seems like JACL played a major role in this is the pardoning of Iva Toguri. Do you remember anything about that? Ron Yoshino: No, I just remember that it happened that Iva Toguri was here in Chicago, and that I remember that the Chicago Chapter got, was promoting the pardon for Iva Toguri. And I know that as a result of JACL' ; s involvement, she was happy about that. And she, she donated a screen to the Chicago Chapter as a result. I don' ; t know where the screen is right now, but I remember she donated one of those Japanese screens to the chapter as her token of appreciation for JACL' ; s involvement in promoting her case. Mary Doi: Right, and then I guess eventually President Ford pardons her in 1977. Ron Yoshino: Right. Mary Doi: So thinking about this same timeframe, we' ; re going to move into your involvement in the Redress Movement. Did you attend the 1978 JACL Convention in Salt Lake City? Ron Yoshino: No, I did not. Mary Doi: So I guess that' ; s the convention in which the idea of Redress comes up? Ron Yoshino: Right. Mary Doi: And when the word... When that idea comes back to Chicago, what did you think about the decision to seek Redress? Ron Yoshino: I, I really was kind of... I didn' ; t have very much thinking relative to all of that. I, the-- I think, basic, from my perspective, it was probably a cause that the Japanese American community could coalesce around. So, and I thought it was a good idea, but I really didn' ; t, wasn' ; t strongly involved in the Redress Movement or, or any of that thing prior to, to that happening. I mean, I knew what was going on. I, I thought that maybe it was something to work on, you know at that point in time. I don' ; t think very many people ever thought that we were going to get a pardon or any, any redress or reparations, or anything else like that. But I mean it was, I think it was a good thing for the community and a good thing for JACL to become involved and coalesce around an idea like that. Mary Doi: So I know that I' ; ve read that in Seattle, one of the approaches that was early on was to go directly for reparations payments. Do you know if Chicago went on board with that or the, sort of like the concurrent, and maybe, I don' ; t know, more persuasive advice of Inouye, Matsunaga, Mineta, and Bob Matsui, who suggests, no, let' ; s do the legislative approach because we have to educate the public? Ron Yoshino: Right. I, you know I was not involved with that. You know, I was on the chapter board at that point in time. I think John Tani might' ; ve been president around that, that time, and he was more involved in all of that, all of those issues and the Seattle' ; s involvement, and you know, whether we were going to go with, along with Seattle for direct, was it direct reparations or whether I think NCJAR at that point in time was talking about suing the government. And, of course, as a member of the Chicago chapter and JACL, I was just kind of tagging along with whatever JACL was planning to do. And you know, at that point in time, I think John Tateishi was involved with the Redress Movement for JACL, and, and they got involved with Dan Inouye and Spark Matsunaga, and Norm Mineta, and with Bob Matsui at that point in time. And I believe the story is that Dan Inouye promoted the redress hearings or hearings commission. And so that' ; s how, that' ; s the direction that JACL went. And so that' ; s how we got involved here in Chicago. Mary Doi: Well I' ; m glad that you brought up NCJAR, the National Coalition. No, National Japanese American... No, National Coalition-- Ron Yoshino: National Coalition for Japanese American Redress, I think. Mary Doi: That was the Bill Hohri group. Ron Yoshino: Yes. Mary Doi: You know so Chicago has the chapter working on the legislative route. And Bill Hohri, also Chicagoan, is working on the, sort of the judicial route through suing the government. Do you remember much about the Bill Hohri group? Ron Yoshino: I don' ; t know, I don' ; t know who was involved with Bill Hohri. All I know is that at one point in time along the history, Bill Hohri and his wife came to the Chicago Chapter board meeting sometime in the, probably in the early 1980s and tried to persuade the Chicago Chapter to become involved with NCJAR and the legislative, or the route of suing the government at that point in time. And at that point in time, the Chicago Chapter said, no, we' ; re, we' ; re working with the National JACL, and that' ; s the route that we' ; re going. So as a result of that, we didn' ; t agree to move along with Bill Hohri. Mary Doi: So was there any friction between the JACL and the NCJAR efforts or, you know or groups? Ron Yoshino: I think Bill Hohri was here in this office talking to us, and at the end of the discussion, when agreed to, to or we told him we were going to go along with the National JACL, I think he said something to his wife, like, " ; Thank you. Let' ; s go, dear. They don' ; t quite understand what' ; s going on," ; or something to that effect, and left. So, I mean, I wouldn' ; t say there was friction. It was, we didn' ; t understand, or we didn' ; t quite want to get on board with his proposal. Mary Doi: So sort of bringing it back to the Chicago JACL Chapter, when it comes to, you know the earlier decision, whether you go for direct payment or you go the legislative route suggested by Inouye et al., were there any generational divides? Were the Nisei more prone to say, let' ; s do it legislatively, and the Sansei were saying, let' ; s go for the money. Was there anything like that? Ron Yoshino: I don' ; t remember much of all of that. You know, I think we were involved, but only to the extent of supporting whatever the national organization wanted to do. That' ; s my, that' ; s what I remember. In any case, I was really not actively involved in a lot of that at that point in time. Mary Doi: Okay. And then I noticed that, that there is a, where did I put those papers? The Midwest District Redress Committee where there are representatives from each chapter, and I believe you were the Chicago representative to that group. Do you remember anything about that? Ron Yoshino: I don' ; t remember being the Chicago representative. I don' ; t remember being involved with that at all. Mary Doi: Okay, that' ; s fine. Just thinking back on that time, was there much difference between, say, the Cleveland Chapter' ; s stance about redress and reparations versus the Minneapolis versus the Cleveland versus the Milwaukee, all the different chapters? Was there friction at the Midwest district level or differences of opinion? Ron Yoshino: Not that I' ; m aware of. I mean, the only thing that I remember was that Cleveland had Hank Tanaka and Toaru Ishiyama, and I think they were probably people that I kinda looked up to in terms of direction and whatever they thought I was going to follow their, their lead from my perspective. I mean, I, I respected their opinions. I think those were the two leaders in, in the Chicago or in the Midwest that, that I remember and respected, and respected their opinion. Mary Doi: Well, another person that I know that was very involved in the Chicago Chapter, he was very involved in JACL period, and then the Chicago Chapter is Shig Wakamatsu. Do you remember much about him and was he working actively for Redress? Ron Yoshino: You know he, he might' ; ve been involved, but I wasn' ; t involved with him. I know there were other people in the, in the Chicago area that were involved. I know Art Morimitsu was involved, and... But most of the activities that I was involved in weren' ; t directly related to what Shig Wakamatsu or Art Morimitsu were doing. Mary Doi: That' ; s fair. But, but when you think back on the Midwest district level, Hank Tanaka and Toaru Ishiyama are people that you valued their opinions? Ron Yoshino: Yes. Mary Doi: Okay, great. So do you remember at the Midwest district level if the committee would get together and have meetings? Ron Yoshino: That, I, I don' ; t remember anything like that at all, because really, I don' ; t remember being involved at the district level at all. Mary Doi: Okay. Well, we just saw your name on a roster, so-- Ron Yoshino: Oh, okay. Mary Doi: It could, it could be that you were nominally involved, but back at the Chicago level, there did seem to be a Chicago Redress Committee, and you' ; re, you' ; re involved in that, I believe. Ron Yoshino: Right. My involvement with the Chicago Redress Committee, well, let me back up one step. Chiye Tomihiro was, was involved with Redress, and from a Chicago Chapter point of view, I think she was probably the one person that was more actively involved than anyone that I can remember. But at the time, they decided they were going to go with the commission, and they had set up a schedule for commission hearings in Washington, I think, in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. And Chicago. I think Chicago got, got involved to the extent that we wanted to make sure that the hearings here in Chicago were, were run, and we got people involved in the hearings and that type of thing. I remember I was kind of surprised that the hearings ended up at Northern... Northeastern University. I had thought they would be somewhere else you know, in some other facility, but in any case, I know they ended up at Northeastern University. Mary Doi: NEIU. Ron Yoshino: Northeastern Illinois University. And at that point in time, we as a chapter said, you know in order that the hearings get as many people involved as possible. I think we decided to set up a committee to see if there were people that were interested in getting involved in presenting their, their stories to the commission at that point in time. And I think we set up an opportunity for people to come here and practice their testimony to get it written down, to work on, on their testimony so that it wasn' ; t a haphazard hearing or haphazard presentation to the committee at that point in time. And, and so I know we did a lot of work to, to try and make sure that the people got involved and, and put their presentations together, and had a chance to practice them. Mary Doi: And that seems very necessary because I believe people only got five minutes to tell their story. Ron Yoshino: Right. Mary Doi: So you can' ; t just have a rambler. Ron Yoshino: Right, exactly. Mary Doi: So I hear Chiye' ; s name in conjunction with identifying possible people to testify as well as preparing. Do you remember anybody else that was very involved in that part of getting involved in the hearings? Ron Yoshino: You know I don' ; t remember much. I, somebody was telling me that Mike Ushijima was involved in the sense that he was going to videotape people, but I don' ; t remember that off the top of my head. Somebody recently reminded me of that, and, and Mike Ushijima' ; s father, Henry Ushijima, was a, was a film producer and... in the Chicago area. So I think he was able to get video equipment, and I think they had a chance to videotape the people so the people could see how they were, how their presentation was coming off and that type of thing. But I honestly don' ; t remember videotaping people, but I, I heard that that' ; s what, that' ; s what had happened as a result of all of that. But I, I think we made a concerted effort to try and get as many people involved in testifying before the commission at that point in time from the Chicago area. Mary Doi: Well, and then I also heard your name in conjunction with helping with the logistics of the actual hearing. Do you remember anything about that? Ron Yoshino: Well, I remember we wanted to make sure that the, that the commissioners got here, got here safely, got to the hearings, and everything. I, personally, I remember at the end of one session, Arthur Goldberg had to leave and go to the airport. And I remember I drove him to the airport. I mean, that was one of my in-- one involvement that I had. So I got a chance to talk to him a little bit. But there wasn' ; t anything substantive that we talked about. But in any case, in terms of, of the people that testified at the, at the hearings, there are few people that I remember and their testimony. I remember Sam Ozaki, who was a principal-- who was the principal at Taft High School. I think he was in the 442. And I, I remember one of the questions that they asked him, I think he testified on the role of the 442 in Europe. And one of the questions they asked him afterwards was, " ; Do you think that the 442 and the Japanese Americans were used as cannon fodder?" ; And his response was, " ; Yes, we were." ; So I remember that answer. And I remember the story of, I' ; m trying to think of her name. She was from Portland. She was an orphan with her two younger brothers, and she had to take care of her two younger brothers without the help of her parents. She was, I think, maybe a teenager. And she had to help them, and she was responsible for them when they, when they were evacuated. So I mean, that was kind of a pretty sad story. But Helen Murao and her husband, I think Shig Murao, was a teacher in the Chicago Public Schools. But Helen Murao' ; s story was one that really was kind of a tear-jerker. Those are the stories that I remember. And the other person that I remember that testified here was Min Yasui testified, and I don' ; t really remember Min' ; s testimony. I, you know I know most of these people that, or all of the testimonies, are on videotape, and you can look at them online. I have not done that. But the one thing I, I remember about Min Yasui, well you know, he was one of the four Supreme Court cases, and the other, one of the other Supreme Court cases that not too many people are aware of was Mitsuye Endo. And Mitsuye Endo just lived down the street here. I remember he wanted to meet Mitsuye Endo, and I remember walking into the office one day and Min Yasui and Mitsuye Endo were in here talking. I mean, that was probably an historic occasion at that point in time. So at least he got to meet with her at that point in time. But in any case, that' ; s one of the things that happened you know as a result of all that. And the other thing I remember was that some of the hearings, part of the hearings were on television. I' ; m not sure of the exact details of all of that, but I remember Min Yasui was a spokesman for JACL regarding the hearings at that point in time. And I remember that one evening I went home and watched the 10 o' ; clock news, and I saw an interview with Min Yasui, who was, made a very strong statement regarding redress and what happened back in 1942, and it was, it was on local television news. And off the top of my head, that' ; s about all I remember. John Tateishi was, was here at that point in time for the hearings. And I remember at the, at the end of the day, he says, you know, " ; We should have gotten you to testify at the hearings." ; But you know I, I was never planning to do it, and I didn' ; t testify. One of the people that testified was John Tani. I remember he testified as, as one of the younger people that testified at the hearings. You know most of the people were people that, that were in camp. You know John was not, John Tani was about my age at the time, or even younger than me, but he testified. There was a, a couple of younger people that testified, people that were in their 20s. And John Tani, and there was some other person from Cleveland, I think, that testified that was in their 20s. But most of the people were- Mary Doi: John Sone? Ron Yoshino: Tani. Mary Doi: No, but for the Cleveland person, was that John Sone? Ron Yoshino: No, no, it was somebody else. Katherine Nagasawa: --was Monica Sone who also testified. I just wondered that might be the person. Ron Yoshino: It was-- No, I don' ; t think, it-- what was the other person? I don' ; t, I don' ; t recognize that name. Mary Doi: So Monica Sone was an author. Ron Yoshino: No. Mary Doi: And her son was John-- Ron Yoshino: No, it was not, that was not the person that I remember as a young person that testified. John Tani and somebody else, but I, those were not the names. Mary Doi: Okay. Well, I' ; m glad that you were at the, at the hearings. Did you attend both days? Do you remember? Ron Yoshino: I think so. Mary Doi: Okay. You know, I just want to hear it from somebody' ; s mouth. Paint the picture of what it was like to be in the room. Ron Yoshino: You know I, one of the things that quite surprised me was, the seats were filled. I mean it was, you might' ; ve expected that not very many people would' ; ve attended, but the room was full. Most of the chairs, I mean, I would say the, the room was, 80 to 90% of the chairs were filled. The, there was a dais with all of the commissioners. I think Joan Bernstein was there, and the senator from Massachusetts, Ed Brooke, was there. I guess Arthur Goldberg was there. I think Arthur or Drinan was, or-- Father Drinan was there. I' ; m not sure who else was there, but I mean, at that point in time, I was quite surprised that Joan Bernstein was chairperson for the committee. You know, you would' ; ve thought that Edward Brooke or Arthur Goldberg or somebody whose name you recognized might' ; ve been chairperson, but Joan Bernstein was chairperson, and I' ; m pretty sure she was there at the hearings. Mary Doi: The other name that I hear is Judge Marutani. Ron Yoshino: Bill Marutani was there also. Mary Doi: Yeah. So you' ; re sitting in the audience. Do you remember anything about the expression of the commissioners as they' ; re listening to this? Were they bored? Were they outraged? Were they sad? Ron Yoshino: I, I don' ; t remember. I was more interested in, in hearing the stories of the people that, and you know quite honestly, I don' ; t remember a lot of the stories. You know that was 40 years ago, and I don' ; t have a recollection of, of the people that, that testified or what they testified about, but I just remember that... Oh, the only other person that I, I remember, Warner Saunders, was there. He must have been covering for one of the, the TV stations at that point in time. I think he had a Sansei wife, and, and he was, I don' ; t remember-- I remember seeing him there. I don' ; t know if he was there just to watch the hearings or if he was covering it for one of the TV stations, but I remember he was there. I mean, I have some, there are some things that stand out, and that was one of them. Mary Doi: Right. So Warner Saunders was a newscaster, is that right? Ron Yoshino: Yeah, he was, and I recognized him as a newscaster at that point in time. Mary Doi: Isn' ; t he also African American? Ron Yoshino: Yeah. Mary Doi: Okay so that was-- Ron Yoshino: But he passed away several years ago. Mary Doi: So you mentioned that the room is like 80 to 90% full. Is it mainly Japanese Americans who are in the audience? Ron Yoshino: I, I think so. I think more than 50% of the people were, maybe even two-thirds to three-quarters of the people may have been Japanese Americans, community people that, and a lot of them I probably recognized as, as being community people and people that were involved with the various Japanese American organizations here in Chicago. Mary Doi: So those would be things like the churches or? Ron Yoshino: Churches, Service Committee, JACL, the Chicago Nisei Post and the churches. Yeah. I recognized a lot of the people from those various organizations. Mary Doi: You know one way I think about the hearings across the country is that this is one of the first times that individuals get up and tell their story. Did you have any sense of the importance of the hearing themselves to the community, to you, and not just to the commissioners? Ron Yoshino: You know people talked about well, it was a catharsis, but I think, in some cases it was a story that people wanted to tell, and, and this was really an outlet for them to tell their stories. And so I think it was, it was an outlet for a lot of people to get it off their chest, get it off their mind, and, and say what they really thought and, and tell their stories. Mary Doi: So you mentioned how sad Helen Murao' ; s story was as the teenager responsible for her two brothers. Were there any other stories that sort of stood out like that, revelations to you that this is the range of experiences? Ron Yoshino: I think one other story that as I sit here and think about it is Chiye Tomihiro' ; s story. I think her story was that you know her father was a, a businessman back in, in Oregon, I think in Portland. And as a, as a result of having to, to relocate, they had, they got rid of their business. And, and when he came to Chicago afterwards, at that age, he was never able to, to get his feet back on the ground and start all over again. So it was a pretty sad commentary about how, how as a result of the relocation that, he lost his business and was never able to recoup from that. Mary Doi: Great. We are well into the hour here, and I have a couple more sections to talk to you about. One of the things that I found out about the Chicago hearings was that actually the day before and the Saturday before, and the Monday before, I think Tuesday and Wednesday were the hearing dates themselves at Northeastern, but I came across this conference at NEIU With Liberty and Justice for Some: The Case for Compensation to Japanese Americans Imprisoned During World War II. Do you remember this conference? Ron Yoshino: No, I don' ; t. Okay. Mary Doi: I guess in day one people like, I was just looking at it, people like Roger Daniels spoke, Min Yasui spoke, Bill Hohri spoke. I think those are the names that immediately stood out to me. And then the evening before the hearing starts, Arthur Goldberg gives a special address. So you don' ; t... Okay. That must not have been a JACL organized effort. Ron Yoshino: No, I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t remember that at all. Mary Doi: Okay. So you didn' ; t attend, obviously. You know, so the hearings happen. The commission puts out their report, Personal Justice Denied, and their recommendations. So now it' ; s the road to the legislation. How do we get from the recommendations to legislation and a bill? Did the, do you remember if, at that point, the Midwest District was still meeting as a redress committee, or was the Chicago committee really active in this stage? Ron Yoshino: I think that, yes, they were, they were actively involved in getting letters out to their, to the congressmen. You can reach a lot more congressmen here in Illinois, in Michigan, and Ohio, and that, that type of thing. So I know there was a concerted effort to get members to write letters to their congressmen and senators and, and that type of thing to promote the redress effort. And so I think there was a substantial letter-writing campaign to, to make sure that people were, were involved in getting their government officials involved in the Redress Movement legislation. Mary Doi: Yeah one of the-- One of the things I' ; ve read is that the Midwest district, because it covers so many states, also had the most representatives in Congress. The West Coast is divided up into different districts, or different chapters. Ron Yoshino: Right. Mary Doi: So the Midwest then plays a prominent role in the sheer number of votes that we have. Ron Yoshino: Yes. And that' ; s why they, they promoted the letter-writing campaigns. So you know, I know that was going on, I, I can' ; t-- and I know that people had form letters written up so that, so that all you had to do was sign one and send it into your congressman. But I mean I wasn' ; t, I knew that was going on. I wasn' ; t really actively involved in that at all. Mary Doi: Okay. Early on, you mentioned the churches getting involved, the Japanese American organizations learning about the Redress Movement, there seemed to have been other national allies such as the labor unions and different, different sects of churches, different denominations of churches, and one of the things I read about in the Chicago Shimpo was how Art Morimitsu really worked with the Veterans group. I don' ; t remember if it was the Veterans of Foreign Wars or the American Legion to actually get that group to support not just the, the apology, but also the reparations funding, the money. Were there other Chicagoans that stand out in your mind as really influencing national groups? Ron Yoshino: The only other person that, that I remember off the top of my head was Chiye Tomihiro' ; s involvement with the American Friends Service Committee, but-- and I don' ; t really remember. I just remember that. I don' ; t remember what her involvement was or how, how if she was successful in getting endorsements from them, but I know that she used to talk about them on, on occasion. But I think Art Morimitsu was more involved with the American Legion, the, the Chicago Nisei Post here in Chicago, and, and I think he got involved with the American Legion on a, on a national level, or certainly on a district and maybe on a national level, to get their support. Mary Doi: Right and this is not-- Tsune Nakagawa' ; s name came up. I was talking to somebody else and she said that Tsune was the assistant or a secretary to Percy, Charles Percy. Ron Yoshino: Chuck Percy, yes. Mary Doi: Yeah. And that she helped kind of educate him. Do you remember anybody else that might have had that kind of tie? Ron Yoshino: Not really. Not off the top of my head. Mary Doi: And then I listened to an interview that Ross Harano did, and he talks about how he had ties to other communities, to other groups. So for example, he mentioned David Roth with the American Jewish Committee, but he, but Ross also mentioned that he had ties to the ethnic communities in Chicago so that when he got to talk to them, they could kind of talk to other people in their communities across the country to gather support. Do you remember other things like that? Ron Yoshino: I remember Ross was much more involved in that than I, than I was, and I know that he had a lot more ties to the, to the other communities, to the Jewish organizations, and that type of thing. And I know that he was much more active than I was in, in promoting people to get involved and getting their organizations involved in the Redress. Mary Doi: You know, I think between when the report and recommendations come out in ' ; 82 till the time that the bill is actually passed, and we get the Civil Liberties Act of 1987 or ' ; 88. Ron Yoshino: ' ; 88. Mary Doi: ' ; 88. How did, how did the chapters keep up the momentum? You know I was just wondering, is there fatigue when you don' ; t know when the endpoint is going to be reached and, and you have success? Ron Yoshino: Yeah, you know I, I was not actively involved in all of that. I, I know that my, we had a JACL National Convention here in Chicago in 1986, and, you know which was kind of a prelude to Reagan signing it in 1988. And, and I was involved with, well, I was chairperson for the, the National Convention back in 1986. So, I mean, most of my time and activity was involved in the convention. So I wasn' ; t really involved with a lot of this activity in terms of soliciting support from various congressmen and senators. I was more involved in, in the JACL Convention at that point in time. Mary Doi: It' ; s understandable how when you' ; re the chair of the convention, you have so many things to be responsible for that these things might not happen. So at that convention, was there still dissent in the Japanese American community that, were there people that didn' ; t think that we needed the financial, the, the money part of what becomes the Civil Liberties Act? Ron Yoshino: You know I, I' ; m sure there was, but I was not involved in, in the politics of the organization. I was more involved in just setting up the convention and, and doing, making sure they had a place and a forum to discuss all of these issues. And so I wasn' ; t really involved in any of the political, I, I know there were, there were politics involved within the JA community, and, and there were people that had differing views on how we ought to proceed and everything. And I, I know there was a lot of politics involved in that whole process. I know that at one point in time you know, John Tateishi was, was in charge of redress for JACL, and, and then at some point in time he was out. And...But I don' ; t know the politics of all of that, but I know it happened. And I know when the, when Reagan signed the bill. I know John Tateishi wasn' ; t involved in any of that. It was, I think, well, I' ; m not exactly sure. You know, Denny Yasuhara, I mean, these are some of the names that I remember was involved. And Harry Kajihara was president of JACL at that time, and he was the one that' ; s in the picture with the bill signing with Reagan as president of JACL. But you know a lot of things happened during that point in time, and I was more involved in the activity of setting up a convention and doing those types of things as my support to the organization. Mary Doi: So such, such important operational feet on the ground, making sure we' ; ve got the menu for the banquet and all the hotel rooms are up to snuff. Ron Yoshino: Yeah. Mary Doi: So that' ; s good. Now we' ; re getting into the, the last part of the interview, which is the afterlife of the Redress Movement. You know so the bill was signed, the, the law is that they' ; re going to set up a way to pay, pay out the individuals who are affected. So at that time, I believe about 60,000 out of the 120,000 internees were still alive. Ron Yoshino: Mhmm. Mary Doi: Was Chicago very involved in disbursal? Ron Yoshino: No. The, the only thing that I remember about... I think Bob Bratt was, was the person that was... I think various government agencies, once they allocated the money, wanted to be involved with the disbursal of the money. But the only thing that I know is that my cousin' ; s grandmother was, was one of the people that went to Washington and received the first checks, Hisano Fujimoto. I think she was 102 years old, and-- Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, yeah, I' ; ve seen the picture of her. Ron Yoshino: Okay. Yeah that' ; s, yeah my cousin' ; s grandmother. I mean, I knew her, and... But yes, I think they tried to pick some of the oldest people, and she was one of them. Katherine Nagasawa: I think she was 101 when she received it. Ron Yoshino: 101, well, I, I was at her 100th birthday party in 1989. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, my gosh. Mary Doi: That' ; s wonderful. Katherine Nagasawa: I was wondering, do you remember your parents' ; reactions when they received their checks and the apology letter? Ron Yoshino: Well, I think, say, it was 1990, I guess my father was ; he must' ; ve been 83 years old at that point in time in 1990, and he put it in a five-year CD. Now, you know, who puts money in a five-year CD when you' ; re 83 years old? I guess he expected to live a longer life. I mean, he lived till he was 90 or 91, but that' ; s as much as I remember. He put it in a five-year, the what, $20,000 check in a five-year CD. Mary Doi: How about your mom? That is a great story. How about your mom? Do you remember? Ron Yoshino: I don' ; t know. I just remember seeing the letter that they got from Reagan. That' ; s all and reading it, but I don' ; t remember any specific reaction. So... Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember if your parents closely followed what you and Bill were doing during that time? Because both of you were pretty heavily involved in the movement. Like do you remember how they felt about redress and what you were doing? Ron Yoshino: No, actually, you know we never talked much about it with, with our, our parents. In fact, you know, I never learned about the camps until I was like 25 years old, and I did not learn about it from my parents. They didn' ; t talk about it at all. So, and, and during the whole redress campaign, I never really had much conversation with them about it. They may have talked to my brother more about it, but certainly I didn' ; t have very many conversations with them about the whole process or anything. Mary Doi: Interesting. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you know if they went to the hearings? Ron Yoshino: Did they go to the hearings? No, they, they didn' ; t. They weren' ; t really involved in the community that much, much at all. So they let us be involved in the community, I guess. So no, they, they did not go to the hearings. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you feel like after they received the redress check, did you notice anything change about their willingness to talk with you guys about what happened, or was it the same even after 1990? Ron Yoshino: Yeah, I don' ; t think we talked much about it before or after. So, there was not a whole lot of conversation, even when we went out to dinner with them, about this, this topic at all. You know as much as I knew is they were in Heart Mountain, Wyoming, and they came to Chicago afterwards, and that' ; s about as much, I mean, they didn' ; t really even talk that much about being in camp or anything at all. Mary Doi: Where did you learn it when you were aged 25? Ron Yoshino: I learned it from my cousin' ; s husband. He gave me the book: " ; American Concentration Camps" ; , I think it was Bosworth or-- And, and said I ought to read it. And that' ; s where I, that' ; s where I learned. Mary Doi: Do you know if Bill was equally in the dark and had to learn about it from a book? Ron Yoshino: Yeah, I, I' ; m not sure when Bill learned about it. You know, when I got the book American-- " ; America' ; s Concentration Camps" ; , I was about 25 years old in 1968 or ' ; 69. I mean, that' ; s when I first really got involved. I don' ; t think my parents ever, I don' ; t ever remember them talking about it at all when I was a youngster or even after I was out of the house and married. I don' ; t, I don' ; t remember having that many conversations or any conversations. I mean-- Katherine Nagasawa: I think I heard from somebody who' ; s close to your age, like a Sansei, who was in Ohio. He also said the same thing about his parents not really being that talkative about camp, but he said he learned a lot of it through the Nisei that were part of the JACL chapter he was in. Do you recall any of the older board members or, or Nisei in JACL kind of helping fill in the gaps for you? Obviously, the hearings were a big part of that because you heard all those stories that day, but are there any particular people you remember being more open about it, if you will? Ron Yoshino: The one person that, that I know that was involved was Shig Wakamatsu. You know, he was involved in the Japanese American History pro-- project for JACL, and I think they published you know a half a dozen books on Japanese Americans and that type of thing. So I, I learned something about the whole episode in 1942 from just following what, what Shig Wakamatsu was doing back in the 60s, and 70s, and 80s, I think. So... You know he, he was the one that, I, I think the first book that came out of, out of that was Bill Hosokawa' ; s book Nisei, and then there, there was a book on, there were half a dozen books that came out of the Japanese American research project that was sponsored by JACL. In fact, there' ; s a bunch of books downstairs in the basement that, that are left over from Shig Wakamatsu' ; s time, and actually you ought to go down there and just take, that them and take them home. They got books on the legal aspects of JAC--, or of the Japanese the American community, the, the ag-- their contributions to agriculture. And, and Robert, I think Robert Wilson wrote a book. And anyway, a number of people were commissioned to write books, and, and Shig was the one that followed all of that. And by being around Shig, I, I learned some of all of this stuff. Mary Doi: Right, I remember when he was interviewed for Regener-- Or, for, yeah, Regenerations about the resettlement that he had not only been involved for a long time, but had such amazing recall. Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: You know? That, that' ; s my memory of Shig. So just to end up, I' ; m kind of interested in, and this is, this is a question that is sort of a more recent question, and especially Yonsei like my daughter are very interested in this, and it is, what does repair look like? We' ; ve, we' ; ve got the act, we' ; ve got the law signed. Was that sufficient to repair the injustice? Ron Yoshino: I guess it was. You know, I haven' ; t really thought about that. I mean, you know when they first started out in this whole process, I think it, it went back to the early 1970s, I think. I can' ; t even remember his, his, name who, who got involve-- Who was the first person involved with redress. Uno, Edison Uno. When Edison Uno got, I think he was the first one that started talking about it in the 1970-- early 1970s. I think it was a pipe dream, and the fact that nobody ever thought that we were going to ever get redress or reparations, and the fact that, that it happened, I think people were really, really happy about, about that. I mean, surprised, happy. You know no one ever really got anything like that from the government. And so I think it' ; s more satisfaction out of getting redress and reparations from the government more than repairing your psychological memories, and, and hurt, or whatever you, whatever happened as a result of being relocated. So I think there was more happiness at the success of the Redress Movement more, more than anything. Mary Doi: That' ; s a really good distinction to talk about the satisfaction that the community felt, the happiness that the community felt as one kind of a repair. And then you mentioned the psychological damage that might have been done. Has, has that been repaired? Is it still an ongoing thing? How do you see it manifested? Ron Yoshino: I think probably you know the, the people that were relocated and, and maybe even, you know I know my parents were relocated, and I feel badly about all of that. So you know until maybe the next generation, I think until it' ; s all behind us, it' ; s, it' ; s still there. Psychologically. Mary Doi: How do you see that? How does it manifest itself that the repair has not completely happened? Ron Yoshino: I think you feel a little isolated, or, or not part of the community, or, or you feel like you' ; re... I' ; m struggling for the right words. The... I' ; m drawing a blank right now. Mary Doi: Okay, that' ; s fine. Kat, do you have any questions? Katherine Nagasawa: I think you, I think you got everything. There' ; s just one thing I wanted to share with you, Ron. I was looking through a really old 1981 copy of the Chicago JACL newsletter, and there' ; s a shout-out to you. It was like a recap of the hearings, but the president wrote, " ; Redress Chairperson, Ron Yoshino, did an outstanding job organizing, planning, and following up on thousands, literally, of details. There were many people making significant contributions in the Redress effort, but Ron must take credit for putting the whole program together. I' ; m thoroughly impressed with the job he did." ; And I think kind of, maybe to one of Mary' ; s earlier questions, I, I wonder, just, it just seemed like an absolute incredible amount of work and tireless effort that you put into making sure that the hearings went smoothly. What do you feel like motivated you, or what like drove you to do that and put so much, so many hours and so much time and effort into this movement? Ron Yoshino: Well, I think it was you know, a major program of the JACL, and being a member and, and being responsible for all of that, you know I, I just wanted to make sure it got done right more than anything else. I, I can' ; t say that there was any other ulterior motive other than the fact that it was a responsibility. It was something that I was responsible for and I just wanted to make sure it got done right. Like running a convention, you want to make sure that gets done right, and whatever project you' ; re working on, it was a project. Now, you know I can' ; t tell you that I, I was one of the people that really felt deeply about Redress and everything deep down from a motivational point of view. I, I didn' ; t, I did it more because it was a job responsibility that I had to take care of. Katherine Nagasawa: And you felt responsible to the Japanese American community more broadly. Ron Yoshino: Well more, yeah more to the JACL as an organization. You know we were involved with it and spearheading the effort, so it was, I felt more, more responsible to the organization. Katherine Nagasawa: Mhmm. And I guess more broadly then, what has it meant for you to have been involved in an organization like JACL throughout your adult life? Ron Yoshino: Yeah, I' ; ve been involved, well, until I think the last time I was really involved was five or six years ago. I, I haven' ; t really been involved since then, but I was involved for, for quite a long time, from late 1960s to about 2015 or 2016, I think was the last time I was really involved. Katherine Nagasawa: Mhmm. And why do you feel like it was important to you to be involved in Japanese American community issues and, and with the organization for such a long period of time? Ron Yoshino: You know, I, I' ; m more involved in the organization and what the organization has done for the Japanese American community. And, and my contributions have been more in terms of organiza-- you know, organizing conventions. You know I' ; ve been involved in the organization at the National Conventions as being credentials chair, just being involved, doing what I could do as, based on the skills that I have in terms of organizing and, and getting things done. And so that' ; s you know, how I can contribute to the organization. I, I' ; m not really an issues person at all. I' ; m more of a, an organization-type person, and that' ; s where my skills are, and that' ; s where I' ; ve, I' ; ve tried to contribute to the organization. Katherine Nagasawa: Thank you so much. Mary Doi: Yeah. Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: No, one more. Just wrapping it up. Is there anything else you' ; d like to tell us? Ron Yoshino: I' ; ll probably think of something after I leave, but right now I can' ; t think of anything. Mary Doi: Okay, you can email me. Ron Yoshino: Okay. Mary Doi: Thank you so much, Ron. This has been incredible. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YoshinoRon20230207.xml YoshinoRon20230207.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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<a href="https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/show/2732" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Oral History Interview: Yoshino, William (12/6/2022)</a>
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Yoshino, Ron (2/7/2023)
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Ron Yoshino, a Chicago-born Sansei, discusses his involvement in the JACL's Redress efforts and his role as Chairperson for the JACL's 1986 National Convention in Chicago. He recalls the effort that went into logistics and planning for the Chicago CWRIC hearings, and describes his experience as an audience member and the emotional impact of of the witnesses' testimonies. He remembers his father receiving a reparations check in 1990 at the age of 83 and his decision to place the money in a 5-year CD. In closing, he reflects on the psychological effects of incarceration that still impact the Japanese American community and on his efforts to use his organizational skills to contribute to the work of the JACL.
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2023-02-07
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
---
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Doi, Mary
Nagasawa, Katherine
Interviewee
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Yoshikawa, Gordon
OHMS Object
https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YoshikawaGordon20230410.xml
Interview Keyword
Nisei
Tule Lake
Topaz
Japanese American Citizens League
JACL Cincinnati chapter
JACL Midwest District Council
Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians
Northeastern Illinois University
CWRIC Hearings
Civil Liberties Act
OHMS Object Text
5.4 4/10/2023 Yoshikawa, Gordon (4/10/2023) 1:30:54 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection REDR Redress Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Nisei Tule Lake Topaz Japanese American Citizens League JACL Cincinnati chapter JACL Midwest District Council Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians Northeastern Illinois University CWRIC Hearings Civil Liberties Act Yoshikawa, Gordon Doi, Mary Nagasawa, Katherine video 1:|10(5)|21(7)|33(5)|43(5)|53(9)|63(1)|71(10)|78(2)|85(4)|95(6)|105(11)|113(6)|120(13)|126(12)|132(13)|146(6)|157(9)|164(11)|174(6)|180(1)|185(3)|195(8)|206(6)|217(9)|227(9)|234(7)|245(13)|254(2)|266(2)|272(1)|281(12)|289(4)|301(1)|311(7)|331(7)|347(7)|358(5)|365(6)|377(10)|384(8)|397(1)|411(7)|420(1)|427(8)|434(3)|440(13)|447(5)|453(6)|460(8)|466(2)|472(6)|483(5)|495(12)|509(7)|518(6)|526(2)|531(13)|541(8)|552(7)|559(7)|577(1)|593(13)|607(7)|624(1)|631(10)|647(12)|654(10)|661(17)|668(10)|675(15)|687(6)|698(1)|715(13)|736(14)|746(13)|753(15)|759(13)|772(4)|779(5)|785(14)|792(8)|807(5)|819(4)|829(5)|836(8)|843(5)|855(4)|874(1)|893(5)|908(9) 0 https://vimeo.com/825115622 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/825115622" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; Gordon Yoshikawa, a nisei who resettled in Cincinnati, OH after being released from incarceration, discusses his involvement with the Cincinnati chapter of the JACL from the 1960s to the present day, focusing primarily on his memories of the redress movement. He describes how redress created an opportunity for former incarcerees who had remained silent for many year to open up about their experiences during WWII. He recalls his own experience as an audience member at the Chicago CWRIC hearings at NEIU, and reflects on his friends and aquaintances who testified. Notably, he shares details about attending, along with his sister, the presidential signing of the Civil Liberties Act in Washington, DC in 1988. He also describes some of his more recent experiences as a public speaker about Japanese American history. Katherine Nagasawa: So today is April 10th, 2023 and this oral history is being recorded digitally over Zoom. The interviewer-- the interviewers are Katherine Nagasawa and Mary Doi and the interviewee is Gordon Yoshikawa. This interview is being recorded by the JASC Legacy Center in order to document the Japanese American redress movement in Chicago and the Midwest. So Gordon, I wanted to just start by talking a little bit more about your early involvement in the JACL. So could you talk about when you first became involved in the Cincinnati JACL? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess I, I first joined JACL in Cincinnati in 1965 or 4. My, my sister was co-chair of the Cincinnati chapter in 1965 so that sort of got me involved. Up to that point I didn' ; t do too much with the JACL at all. Katherine Nagasawa: And when you joined, what was the makeup of the chapter in terms of generational breakdown and age, gender? Gordon Yoshikawa: Age wise, I guess it' ; s a little bit older I guess because it' ; s the people that had come to Cincinnati after evacuation. So that was the bulk of the membership. And they had children but the children were, at that time too young really to participate. Katherine Nagasawa: And beyond your sister, did any other family members get involved in JACL? Gordon Yoshikawa: I had two, two sisters. Two sisters were involved, the brothers were not. But the one, one sister was working with the YWCA but she didn' ; t get too involved with the chapter itself, you know, basically as a member. Katherine Nagasawa: And I remember you mentioned to me when we talked that you were actually chapter president pretty early on. Can you talk about that as well? Gordon Yoshikawa: (laughs) When I joined in ' ; 65, I guess probably the year after I had joined, I became president of the chapter. So they' ; re always looking for new blood for the chapter. And I became president again about 10 years later. So I' ; m sort of lucky ' ; cause I only served as president twice, whereas some of the other members served maybe four or five years at a time. So it' ; s getting almost to that point again because there are fewer members and as a result the, the officers that are in right now tend to have to stay in a little bit longer than they had anticipated. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you think you' ; ll take another rotation as president? Gordon Yoshikawa: Probably not at this point, so-- Although can' ; t pass it up. One never knows. But most likely not. Katherine Nagasawa: I also wanted to ask about some of your early recollections of the redress movement. Do you remember around when you first heard about it and what your reaction to it was? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, the redress movement I guess as I was going to JACL national conventions, I heard some rumbles in, in the late seventies that there was something going on with redress and it eventually became more organized and the redress movement sort of took off probably from 19-, I guess ' ; 79 or ' ; 80. And then they started formalizing some of the organizational activities. And once the commission was formed and had hearings, then we had a legislative education committee formed. So then that, that started the support group for the redress. Katherine Nagasawa: What was your reaction to the idea of asking for redress and reparations? Do you remember, at the JACL convention where you heard about it, what you thought? Gordon Yoshikawa: I think the average member probably would be for it since they, their parents or friends you know had undergone hardship when the evacuation occurred. But I guess on a personal level, you' ; re not quite sure how you want to do this and whether this will be successful or not. But you are hoping that, that something along this line would take place at some point. Katherine Nagasawa: Within your family, did you talk openly about the camp experience? Gordon Yoshikawa: Not in my family and probably not in 95% of other families. Between 1945 when we left camp until the redress movement started in, in the late seventies, they probably didn' ; t speak about evacuation, hardship, the losses, at that time. I think the redress movement and the hearings that started up in the late seventies then started bringing people out more. I had a brother, my sister' ; s brother-in-law who was in MIS during the war. Of course after serving in MIS then they' ; re not really allowed to talk about it. But even then, on a family basis he didn' ; t speak about it to family members either. And there was some, I guess, activity in regards to public getting interested in it. And the public radio station had contacted me. I guess over the years they would, around December 7th they would start contacting people who had been evacuated and they would talk about their stories. And the public radio had contacted me and I talked to my brother, my sister' ; s brother-in-law, and whether he would be willing to speak with the public radio and he agreed to do it. And this is the first time that he would openly speak about it to anybody. So it was an amazing time when people were just starting to be able to say something or be able to talk about their experiences, whether it was good or bad. Katherine Nagasawa: During the redress movement, do you feel like the other Cincinnati JACL chapter members started opening up more? The people who were the core group that was involved? Were they more forthcoming? Gordon Yoshikawa: I think they were because the people that would organize the chapters were about the same age group and they had all undergone evacuation so they would start talking about it a little bit. But usually back then the conversation was usually " ; What camp were you in?" ; and they would maybe talk about family and activities, things along that line, but they would probably not talk about the detrimental effects of evacuation unless it really bothered them a lot. But usually it' ; s all the, the general stuff of where were you. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember when you first heard that the Chicago Commission hearings were happening in 1981? And how did your chapter identify representatives to testify? Gordon Yoshikawa: We didn' ; t have anybody that I recall from the Cincinnati Chapter testify. I was part of the Midwest District JACL so I knew some of the people that were going to speak. I had gone up to Chicago with Mas Yamasaki from Dayton Chapter and he was one that was going to speak early on at the hearing. Later on I had heard that Hank Tanaka from Cleveland had spoken, Masa Tashima also from Cleveland and Hank Tanaka from Cleveland. And I knew Kaz Mayeda, Kaz Mayeda had been involved in the redress movement early on. He had been MDC governor and I, I happened to know him through playing golf so. Katherine Nagasawa: I think you also remember mentioning, or you, you mentioned to me Toaru Ishiyama and then Tom Nakao Jr. right? They' ; re both from Ohio, I think. Gordon Yoshikawa: I had heard that, that Tom Nakao Jr. had testified, same way with Toaru. Toaru is, was a professor and he was very articulate and a lot of times his, his talks were a little bit over your head, but, but that' ; s the way he was. He was a plain guy because he' ; d be there in, in jeans or, or something like that, very casual. I was watching the hearings and I watched Toaru' ; s statement that he had given and talked about. You know, usually he' ; s sort of grubby and he had to find a suit for the hearing. So, but he' ; s a very interesting guy and you get uplifted every time you get together with him. But the hearing website is very nice because you get to see the people that you used to know in sort of real time at that time. And it was nice to see Kaz when he was a bit younger and to see Toaru since he had long passed. And I guess I' ; ll try to watch some of the others. I watched the interview with Chiye Tomihiro from Chicago. So I' ; ll probably look to see who else that I know and then find out a little bit more about what they had endured. But the evacuation sort of hits a lot of people a lot of different ways. I remember speaking with a former president of Dayton Chapter. And she talked about her mother, how devastated she was, when she had to be evacuated and you had little time to process your, your belongings. And she had things that she couldn' ; t take with her like kimono and rather than to just let it get into disrepair or into somebody' ; s hand that wouldn' ; t respect it, she burned it. So you have a lot of extreme reactions to what was going on with evacuation. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I think that' ; s the thing I love the most about listening to all the testimonies, is just the diversity of experience that' ; s conveyed through all those individual stories. And like you said, it' ; s, it' ; s almost as if people are frozen in time. It' ; s very different to watch it on video instead of just to listen to audio of it. So I' ; m so happy they have the videos. They actually didn' ; t know where the, the cassettes were for many years but only recently discovered them and digitized them. So I' ; m so glad you were able to watch them before our conversation. Gordon Yoshikawa: I had heard that there was audio because I figured they would tape record the entire proceeding. So I was pleasantly surprised to know that there was video to go along with it. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I was curious, did you ever consider testifying yourself when they did a call-out for participants? Gordon Yoshikawa: Not myself, because I was too young when I came out. So I was seven years old when I went into camp, 10 years old when I was released. So there isn' ; t too much in the way of, of my testifying. Might' ; ve been different if I had spoken to my parents. Never did talk about the evacuation and the effect that had on my parents. And I know that it would' ; ve been very, very difficult for them, although they really don' ; t show it. But the fact that when in camp they had the questionnaire which bothered many people. They had answered " ; Yes, yes" ; , to keep the family together and to be able to get out of camp. But in doing so, they were relinquishing their Japanese citizenship. Which means that they now had no country that they belonged to because up until 1952 the Japanese were not allowed to become U.S. citizens. So they didn' ; t know at the time so they couldn' ; t have predicted that they could wait and then become citizens at that time. So they were, I guess under extreme pressure and they just decided to do family first. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember anything about the journey that you and Mas Yamasaki took to Chicago? You said you guys drove together. Do you remember where you stayed and who you coordinated with from Chicago around the hearing? Gordon Yoshikawa: No. Our family sort of went out piecemeal. In 1943 when we were in Tule Lake, California, my brother, oldest brother, had gone into the army. My second sister had gotten a contact, gotten a job in Cincinnati with the YWCA. So if you were able to get a job outside or have families of friends to support you outside or go to school, go to a university, then you could leave camp. So in early part of ' ; 43 she left and came to Cincinnati to work for the YWCA here. So once she was established here, then my oldest sister came to Cincinnati and got a job here. And then in probably 1944, my older brother left Topaz and came to Cincinnati to continue his high school education. So usually in the camps were the parents and young children. So it wasn' ; t until May of 1945 that my parents and I were able to leave Topaz, Utah where we had transferred from Tule Lake in 1943. So in May of 1945, then we were able to come out. And it' ; s the usual $25 and a train ticket. And we took the train from, I guess Delta, Utah, eventually to Chicago. And we had stopped and saw some friends in Chicago and then proceeded on down to Cincinnati. But I don' ; t really remember that much about the train trip. Even when we went from Marysville, California to Tule Lake, I knew that after the fact that we had gone by train and then by army trucks into the camp. So that' ; s sort of the extent of the travels. Katherine Nagasawa: And it was mostly your older siblings who put down roots in Cincinnati first before you ended up joining them? Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, it was my sister that had come out to work at the YWCA that prompted everybody else to come to Cincinnati. So Cincinnati also had a hostel which she didn' ; t stay at. But it was sort of a center point for people who had evacuated and come, who had then come out of camps to settle down with a job and a temporary home, eventually a permanent home. Katherine Nagasawa: Mm-hmm. I' ; m curious, did any of those sisters or did your brother end up attending the Chicago redress hearings at all? Or was it just you and your family that went? Gordon Yoshikawa: It was... Let' ; s see. I went up with Mas Yamasaki and I think (not able to make out name) who was at one point in time, president of, of the Cincinnati chapter. But there was only a few of us who had gone up. I don' ; t remember my sister Frances going up with me, so, so I guess it was just a handful of us. Katherine Nagasawa: And I want to just get a sense of what your experience was like at the hearings themselves. What sort of memories stand out to you when you go back to that? You know, I guess it was two days that you spent at Northeastern. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, it was two days. And I remember hearing some of it, but it really didn' ; t sink in. That' ; s why the, the videos that you have that we can go back to and watch now are so impressive. That you saw people who were able to articulate, basically, for their parents and for their family, the conditions and situations, about that time. Katherine Nagasawa: When we talked on the phone, you did say that there was an emotional atmosphere in the room. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by that? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, the emotional factor that I was thinking about really was at the signing of the Civil Liberties Act, 1988. The atmosphere at the hearings, I guess, were a lot different because this is where people are pouring out their stories, so the emotional charge is different. And you hear all, all the sad stories, the difficulties that the parents had, the fact that a lot of them lost members of the family. So it' ; s much, much different situation. So from the back, it, it was sort of hard to catch all of it, but I remember some of the people speaking. And we really get, didn' ; t get that much content at the time. And that' ; s why I was interested in, in the audio. That' ; s why I' ; m so glad that the video is available now. So I' ; m hoping that, that members of JACL will get, you know take the opportunity to look at the videos and see what was really going on in, in 1980 or ' ; 70 something. So... Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember any conversations you had with Mas about his testimony since you guys went to Chicago together and you kind of accompanied him for this experience? Gordon Yoshikawa: Didn' ; t really talk about it. So that' ; s why I was interested in seeing what his testimony would be. And, and it seems like most of his testimony had to do with the emotional trauma that everybody went through. And whether it was their own trauma or whether it was their parents' ; , it just seemed to be universal that everybody really went through a great deal of trauma, emotional trauma. And as a youngster growing up, you know, you don' ; t see any of that. So as kids, we' ; re at camp. Did kid things. So it wasn' ; t much of an effect on them. But I remember, I guess John Tani was speaking about some of the, the breakdown of family because when we got to camp, the, the nuclear family sort of fell apart. Because, I guess usually at mess hall the kids would eat together, the youngsters would eat together. And that, that left the parents sort of eating by themselves. And, and the whole dynamic changed. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s true, where kids were much more separated from parents maybe outside of where they slept in the barracks. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to ask more about the years after the hearings where you were part of the legislative education committee and doing a lot of fundraising work. Can you talk about your role in that and also the role that Grace Uehara played in that committee? Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, once the hearings were over, then you had the legislative education committee that was trying to, to get money so that they could take this through Congress and have the reparations come to life. JACL would try to get all the chapters to take part in getting funds together for that. And the legislative education committee that Grace Uehara had chaired from Philadelphia was really the focal point of the activities that Redress would do at that time. She would put together sample letters for support to the congresspeople, congressmen, and senators. She would pinpoint the people on certain committees that we should try to contact and persuade them to help us in, in the Redress effort. Let' ; s see, she did quite a bit of that. So through her efforts there was a unified effort to, to get the Redress going in Congress. Katherine Nagasawa: In what ways did she stay in touch with all of the chapters? Did she correspond... I guess what was her communication method for coordinating all of this? Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, she was doing like alerts all the time. So if there was some congressional get together or some activity on that, then she would send out these alerts. So you would contact your, your state congresspeople and try to get them to vote your way. So she was always on that, and so you just had to wait until she, she sends you a letter and, and tells you... Well, she even would find out who you should be contacting because she would know what committees are doing what. So she would do that, send letter-- example letters, and that helped a great deal because you know you sit down and you don' ; t really know what to write or what to say to be more convincing. So she would give you some examples. You just follow that and it seemed to get pretty good results. She would also give you phone numbers so that if you sort of inundated your congresspeople with letters and phone calls, then that would affect what they' ; re going to do. Katherine Nagasawa: Beyond writing letters and calling the congresspeople, did you ever have in-person meetings with any of them? Where you kind of lobbied on behalf of the community? Gordon Yoshikawa: We had talk with local congresspeople because my sister would go to some of the town hall meetings. And when she would do that then she would talk to the congresspeople about the Redress efforts. Just to let them know what it is so that then they can take a look at it and, and see for themselves whether they want to get interested in it or not. So I guess my sister did most, most of that, so that worked out well. Katherine Nagasawa: When you think about the core people in Cincinnati who were involved in this lobbying process, who besides you and your sister were doing this kind of work that you can remember? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, we had a number of people that were chapter Redress chair at one time or another. And some of the names that come to mind are Betty Breyer, Jo Okura, Tak Kuriya, Stogie Toki, Fred Morioka. I think these people all took turns in doing the Redress effort. Katherine Nagasawa: Are any of these folks still alive? Gordon Yoshikawa: I guess the only person left is Betty Breyer. All the other ones have passed on. Katherine Nagasawa: I' ; d be curious to, to talk to her about her experience just because it' ; s true that you know a lot of people have, have passed. Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, she never went to camp. She was born in Cincinnati in the mid ' ; 40s. She' ; s also-- Katherine Nagasawa: Is she technically a Sansei then? Gordon Yoshikawa: Pardon? Katherine Nagasawa: Is she technically a Sansei then or is she Nisei? Gordon Yoshikawa: She' ; s really a Nisei because her parents are Issei. She' ; s also a cousin of Tonko Doi. So if you know Tonko, there' ; s the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Mary Doi: Yes, yes. Gordon Yoshikawa: Because she met a fellow that was one of the orphans in Manzanar. And she says, " ; I bet we' ; re related." ; And in a roundabout way she was. Katherine Nagasawa: Wow. Gordon Yoshikawa: He was the, he was a nephew of my sister. So through all that she was right. She, she is connected with him. Katherine Nagasawa: Mary, I know you had a question about how the different Ohio chapters communicated during this time too. Did you want to ask it? Mary Doi: Right. It, it just seems like, and for example, in the state of Illinois, I think there' ; s the Chicago chapter. In Michigan, there' ; s the Detroit chapter, but Ohio seems to have, because probably a lot of small towns, a lot of chapters. So we hear about Cleveland, we hear about Dayton, we hear about Cincinnati. Do you, do the chapters communicate closely or are you autonomous, or how does that-- Gordon Yoshikawa: They used to be closer, but Cleveland being where they are, we don' ; t get in contact with them that often. It used to be more in the past, not as much now. We still stay in touch with Dayton quite a bit because we' ; ll have, we' ; re only like 50 miles away from each other. So we' ; ll have joint installation dinners. So we recently had a joint installation dinner. So the contact still is, is pretty close. Dayton has a summer picnic, which a number of the Cincinnati people go to. Sometimes I guess before the pandemic, Hoosier chapter from Indianapolis, some of the members used to come over to the Dayton picnic also. It seems to be a little less so now I think because of age but they used to come over. But I think between Cincinnati and Dayton, there' ; s still a closeness because as the small-- chapters get smaller then doing joint things help keep the numbers there. They still do a international festival. And it' ; s probably getting harder because their numbers are going down. But Cincinnati used to do the same thing, but they' ; ve discontinued the festival. Mary Doi: Related to this, you know I' ; d, I' ; d say that a lot of the Chicago activities might now especially center around civil rights as opposed to culture. Would you say that the Cincinnati chapter, the Dayton chapter, because the numbers are dwindling, maybe didn' ; t pick up the civil rights movement of the... Oh well, I only know Chicago, of the Chicago way rather than... I don' ; t think Chicago focuses that much on cultural events that it' ; s really much more of a civil rights organization. How would you characterize Cincinnati, Dayton, Cleveland that way? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess MDC gets involved with civil rights more than Cincinnati would by itself. So Cincinnati would support the activities of MDC as it does. So we recently had a shooting at a Japanese food store, but luckily no one got hurt. But there was a fellow who seemed to be a little mentally deranged who had fired a number of shots into the store. And he was spouting off a number of things, which didn' ; t make any sense. Luckily to his right was a Chinese restaurant that had about nine customers inside at the time, and he did not fire into that establishment. So they were very lucky and the police came right away and took him away. And I don' ; t know that there' ; s going to be too much being done about that because of his mental state. So it' ; s sort of unfortunate for, for them, but I think one of the members of the Japan America Society had started a GoFundMe for the Japanese store to help take care of damages and loss of business. So I' ; m hoping that it' ; s still going okay, I haven' ; t talked with them in a while so I don' ; t know. Mary Doi: Was this in Cincinnati? Gordon Yoshikawa: This was in Cincinnati. Mary Doi: Okay. Did it seem at all related to COVID or was this just a, possibly a racist rant that had nothing to do with the time of COVID? Gordon Yoshikawa: I don' ; t think it had anything to do with COVID. I don' ; t know... They couldn' ; t say that it had anything to do with race particularly, because he was just ranting all sorts of things. Mary Doi: Okay. Katherine Nagasawa: Kind of going back to Mary' ; s earlier question about how the chapters communicated, how did you hear news about Redress you know, from Chicago? Did you exchange letters and being part of the Midwest District Council also, what was the main form of communication between those chapters? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, Midwest District has district meetings periodically. You get maybe some correspondence from Bill Yoshino who was the Midwest District Regional... I forgot his title now. But we would hear from Bill Yoshino fairly often when things needed to be done on a district level. So we, we, I guess through the district meetings, they would get to know what the other chapters are doing. Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to make sure we asked you about your experience attending the signing of the Civil Liberties Act in 1988. Can you tell us the whole story you know from you being at the JACL convention on the West Coast and then being called to attend? Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, that was, that was really a nice experience. This is going back to early August 1988 JACL, National JACL had a convention in Seattle. And we were told early on in the meeting that there might be a signing of the Redress bill, possibly the 11th or so of August. And the convention started around the 6th of August. So on the 8th of August I think, they said the bill' ; s going to be signed and the, I guess the LEC had gone over a list of names of people who would be asked to go to the signing or be available if they wanted to. So they had a, I think, a list in JACL, maybe a couple of hundred people and they were cutting the numbers down. And, and at the convention they were down to maybe 50 names or so. And I found out that my sister and I who were representing, would be representing Cincinnati chapter. She was there in Seattle as a booster. So she was not at the meeting when, when the announcements were made. So I knew that she would want to go. So we were told to make arrangements with the travel agency in, in Seattle who was going to handle all this for us. And we were trying to get hold of my sister who was visiting Caroll Nursing I think at the time. And it was hard getting hold of her because all the phones were being used to make arrangements and, and no cell phones back then. So we had to wait and try to track her down, finally did. And we made travel arrangements and then that evening we went to the airport around 8:30 and I guess there were... They had selected like 50 names. I don' ; t remember being that many people there, so I don' ; t know if, if all of them were able to, to make that arrangement or not. But there must have been at least 30, because we were all sitting there waiting to, to go. So we, the travel agent set up a bus for us to go to the airport in, and from the airport, I think we went to Salt Lake City first, and then to Atlanta, and then from Atlanta, we were going to DC. So we' ; re, I guess, in Atlanta late at night, because we left Seattle I guess around 8:30. And so we must have gotten to Atlanta early in the morning and I think we took like a 6:30 flight from Atlanta to DC. So once we got to DC, then we have to sort of get cleaned up, shave and, and change clothes, go from travel clothes to more presentable clothes, and then take cabs. But we had time, well, we went and they had set up breakfast or brunch for us, so we did that. But then we had time between that and the signing. Signing was going to be like 2:30 in the afternoon, and it was supposed to be in the Rose Garden, but it was August, it was 90 degrees or so in DC. So they changed it to, I think, Rayburn Executive Building or something. So we had time between the luncheon and the signing. So my sister and I went to see Willis Gradison, who was in the House of Representatives from Cincinnati, and she had attended a number of his town meetings, so she knew him. So we' ; re able to go over and meet with him. There were two senators, John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum, but we didn' ; t have time to get together with them. So at least we got to see the congressman, and we went over to the Rayburn building to get ready for the signing. So it was a room with a small stage. You had TV cameras in the back, photographers in the back and seating for, for us. So there was a lot of buzzing, a lot of talking going on. You can feel the electricity in the air. And so that was a great experience, and I remember Patty Saiki and some other, I think Bob Matsui and some other people around the table on stage. And at 2:30 then President Reagan came in and said, I guess, basically, " ; Let' ; s get to it." ; But he said, " ; We gather here to right a wrong." ; And he sat down and, and signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which then gave us the apology and the reparation for redress. So that was a nice experience. Katherine Nagasawa: What were the conversations like afterwards? Who else was there that you remember besides your sister? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess people that we were on the plane with. I knew George Sakaguchi from, from St. Louis pretty well. We also golfed. And so I guess everybody' ; s congratulating each other and, and sort of soaking in the moment. I think I had gotten some postcards to send to different people about the occasion and to get it stamped for August 10th, 1988. So I hope people kept, kept those. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you know if anybody... Do you have a postcard that you may have sent your family? Gordon Yoshikawa: I looked around and I did not find one, so I don' ; t know. I can' ; t remember who I sent them to, either. So, I' ; m hoping somebody still has it, anyway. Katherine Nagasawa: When you were in the room that day and you saw President Reagan signing the legislation, how did it feel for you to see the culmination of more than a decade of effort? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, you knew it was a historical moment, so to be part of that was really gratifying. To, to know that this is what should have happened for your parents, and that it' ; s too bad that many of the parents probably were not still alive at the time, and that really is a shame. Katherine Nagasawa: I know you mentioned to me that your parents were not alive to receive their redress checks, but you know, you and your siblings did. Can you talk about what you ended up doing with your redress check? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I guess we were married for about 10 years at that time, and I think we just put the money in the bank. I don' ; t remember doing anything else with it. I guess there was talk about donating it back to JACL, but we figured we would do that through normal donations and, and our activity and, and doing other things for JACL. Katherine Nagasawa: Do you remember what you did with the presidential apology letter? Gordon Yoshikawa: It' ; s still around. It' ; s, it' ; s a mass printed thing, so it' ; s not as, as indicative as if it would' ; ve been individually signed. But it' ; s, well, it was signed by Bush, though, and the signature is such that you can' ; t really read the name, but you knew who it was. So I don' ; t know. Katherine Nagasawa: One of the things you said earlier was that the redress movement really opened up the community to sharing more stories about camp and the hardships experienced. Within Cincinnati, can you talk about how redress changed the community and you know some of the work you' ; ve done yourself to educate the community around Japanese American incarceration? Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I think what it really did was it, it opened up the memories of the people that had gone through evacuation. And I think I tried to put some of that in, into the newsletter. I had talked with some of the men that were part of MIS, and I did a series on, on that. So there were about three or four people who had taken part of MIS. Tried to talk to more, but I don' ; t know that I did. But I think anybody that, that we had interview... I did a number of interviews of chapter members and I' ; m not sure where the tapes are right now, but I had talked to them about their experience then, and quite a number of them do not remember the details of going from home to assembly center or to camp. They might have a little more recollection of the trip from camp to Cincinnati. But I think I had charted the, the people that were here from camp, and I think I only had one from, from Wyoming, and maybe one from Idaho. Bulk of them were Tule Lake, Topaz, Rohwer. We' ; re going to Rohwer, and next month they have a pilgrimage going on early next month. Mary Doi: I' ; m going to be there too. I' ; ll meet you there. Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh, okay. That' ; s great. Because I' ; m taking my cousin Betty Breyer down there. Her cousins, well Tonko and her family were down there, and so I wanted her to be able to speak to people about their experiences, since Betty was born in Cincinnati, so she doesn' ; t have that information in her mind. So this will help put it in perspective and maybe we' ; ll hear a lot of stories. But my late wife used to get ticked off at George Takei because she would tell him about playing around with pollywogs, and eventually I think the pollywogs became part of his memories too. Mary Doi: Oh, oh! Gordon Yoshikawa: But, but I guess we' ; d run into George Takei several times, because his, he had come to speak to the Dayton chapter at a joint installation dinner. He had come to Cincinnati to do a narrative on Star Wars with the Symphony Orchestra, and during that time, they had invited a number of us, given us tickets to the, to that presentation. So we had met, met him in the Green Room and, and everybody' ; s taking pictures with him and the Pops conductor sees this group of people in there, so he comes in and he talks to everybody. So everybody' ; s taking pictures with George. But it' ; s good though. George does a good job of talking about the internment, and I looked at his book, sort of the comic book version, which was interesting. And of course, we' ; ve seen him in, in a number of stage presentations. So he brings the story out there. So that' ; s, that' ; s good for him. Good for us. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s true. And using different mediums, too. Like doing it in a graphic novel or comic format is a different way to get the story out to you know, readers who are more visual, or kids. Mary Doi: Right. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, any way you can is good. Katherine Nagasawa: I was curious, you know, you had mentioned you did interviews with people in Cincinnati who had resettled. Was that a personal project, or was that part of an oral history effort from the JACL? Gordon Yoshikawa: It was really a local history effort, and some of the, the histories of the people in Cincinnati I had put in the newsletter, I had hoped to be able to be able to have the videos on a borrowing basis so that people might see what other people had experienced. But I haven' ; t been able to find them lately. So I' ; ll have to look again. Katherine Nagasawa: It would be wonderful to digitize those and make them available. I feel like you know that' ; s invaluable what you were able to capture. Gordon Yoshikawa: Well, I had gone from-- Katherine Nagasawa: People are passing away who you know, remember the camp. Gordon Yoshikawa: I had gone from the old tapes to, I had them transferred to DVDs, but then I can' ; t find the DVDs, so it doesn' ; t do too much good, but at least I have the old tapes, so if I have to, I could redo them. Mary Doi: Right and I, so I worked on something with the museum, the Japanese American National Museum where everything that we did was on digital videotape. That' ; s what the videographers recorded. Then we made VHS tapes. I don' ; t know if Kat knows what those were, but VHS tapes. You know, and so even if you could find your VHS tape, you can' ; t play it anymore. You know? Gordon Yoshikawa: I can, because I still have the VHS player. Mary Doi: Well, you' ; re smart. Most people don' ; t. Gordon Yoshikawa: I imagine it still works. So if that is the case then-- Same way with some of the tapes that I would do. I keep the, the video camera so even though they' ; re not around anymore, hopefully if I can re-energize the batteries, then I can still bring it back to life. So... Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. So, well, so what I did was I actually ask people at the museum to take the digital videotape that we recorded in 1995 or whatever and make it, put it in the cloud. And I' ; m not even really sure what that means, but available to people now who don' ; t have the VHS machine anymore or you know, a camera. So I feel your pain. I know exactly what it' ; s like to have something that you can' ; t play, but it' ; s great information. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, but you know, if you still have the VHS, you can find a place that' ; ll transfer it for you. Mary Doi: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Do you have copies of the newsletter that you might be able to share where you did do some of these, talk about the interviews you did? Gordon Yoshikawa: I' ; ll see if I can dig up some. Mary Doi: That' ; d be great. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, because I keep better track of my... I do golf newsletters, so every time we, our group goes out and plays golf, I put out a newsletter. And so I' ; ve been better with that. With the JACL ones, they sort of get pitched in a corner, and, and they' ; re out of sequence and I' ; m not sure if they' ; re all there. But, so I' ; ll take a look and see about the interviews. I, I' ; m pretty sure I have the interviews of the three or four men that were in MIS. And then I, I was doing a series on, on the Issei, and I had done some interviews and stories for the newsletter on that. So I' ; ll, I' ; ll see if those are available too. Katherine Nagasawa: That would be amazing. Yeah. And Mary, Gordon did write about his experience attending the signing of the Civil Liberties Act around the time when it happened. So he said he-- Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, I sent that one to you. Katherine Nagasawa: Oh, nice. Thank you. I was trying to look it up but-- I think finally, I just wanted to hear a bit about your own experience speaking your, you know about Japanese American incarceration to the public. You said the two people who normally spoke to the newspapers or the churches or schools passed away not too long ago, and you' ; ve sort of taken that up as your own responsibility now. Can you talk about that? Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. Over the years, there' ; s always been other people that, that would talk to the schools and organizations about the evacuation experience. And all of a sudden, I looked around and they' ; re not there anymore. So I figured, well, I guess it' ; s my turn to do this. And I think I mentioned that one of the first ones that I did was at a public library. And so I did maybe an hour plus presentation with some slides. And I think that was now on YouTube, so it might be available. When I tried to speak... Well I had, I was invited to speak to sixth grade Japanese language school students. And I didn' ; t know that, if they would be able to... I guess they' ; re, they' ; re... They speak English mostly, so they would be able to understand it. But when I was supposed to give that presentation, there was a death in our, in our family, and I couldn' ; t make it, so I gave it to the president of the chapter who was from Japan, and I gave him the, the text of my talk, and I' ; m sure that he probably rewrote it to Japanese so that he could just speak to the students. So at a later time, I had an opportunity to talk to the sixth grade class, and I thought in order to do this, I would like to speak to them in Japanese, which I wasn' ; t able to at the time, but I thought maybe I' ; ll write it in romaji. So I had my friend translate it to romaji and then I would read that and then try to make it smooth enough that it would sound like I knew what I was saying. So I told the students that I do not speak Japanese, but I wrote this in, in romaji and I will read it. So I read it, and they seem to absorb it pretty well. Later on, there was a, a annual thing at the Japanese language school, and each grade would present something that they had done or learned throughout the year. And the sixth grade group did my presentation with slides, and I guess there were maybe six or eight kids and they all had a short speaking part and they would cover part of what I had said. So I was just blown away that they would do this. And so I had told teacher that I was really impressed with what they were able to do. That wasn' ; t the end of it, they did like woodcarving except on linoleum and they put together some pictures. And one was when Kazuya Sato and I were speaking to the group at the presentation. Someone had taken a picture. They took that and they did a wood, a woodcut carving of that. And then, they had a couple other scenes in there. And one of the scenes was the row of toilets that in camp you had toilets one next to each other with no partition, at least in the men' ; s side. And that was part of the woodcut print too. So I guess that' ; s something that impressed them. And then there was the third part, which I don' ; t remember right now, but they did this woodcut print that was like maybe 12 to 18 inches by three feet. Mary Doi: That' ; s gigantic. Wow. Gordon Yoshikawa: And they presented that to me later, at a later time and I was blown away again because I can' ; t imagine the kids doing that in addition to the presentation that they had done. So it, it just really impressed me that the kids are really smart. So it was a fun thing and it was a nice, nice gift to get was that print. Katherine Nagasawa: That' ; s amazing. And I know that you, you mentioned to me that it wasn' ; t just young students you' ; ve given this presentation to. That some of your golfing buddies who are in their 80s has, have also heard your story. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. I' ; ve given it at a number of different places and my golfing friends had come to one of the presentations and it' ; s a story that they weren' ; t aware of at the time. So I' ; ve given it in Cincinnati. I' ; ve given it in Indianapolis. And, let' ; s see. Well that could be basically it. And I did a short version in Dayton, but whenever the opportunity presents itself then I, I try to do that. I think I still owe one person a presentation. So, I guess it' ; ll still go on for a little bit anyway. Mary Doi: Let me know the next time you do it. I would love to come and hear you. Gordon Yoshikawa: I' ; ll, I' ; ll see if I can find the YouTube one. Mary Doi: Oh, okay. That would be great. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, I' ; ll look that one up. Yeah. Gordon Yoshikawa: It might still be out there. But that' ; s one that I think I had done at a public library and somebody had recorded it. So, we' ; ll see how that goes. (laughs) Katherine Nagasawa: I wanted to wind down with a couple of last reflection questions. Mary, did you want to chime in with some of your bigger picture questions about the Redress Movement' ; s legacy? Gordon Yoshikawa: Say that again? Mary Doi: She' ; s asking if I want to ask any questions. Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh! Mary Doi: So this is a little bit maybe off target, but when you talked about attending the hearings, you said that it, the, maybe the emotional weight didn' ; t sink in, something didn' ; t sink in when you' ; re actually sitting in the room hearing the testimony. And that when you are able to, what I heard was that when you were able to watch the actual videos, you were able to now also as an older person sort of, sort of grasp maybe the, the impact of what is being said. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, I think that' ; s true. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Gordon Yoshikawa: Because when you' ; re at the hearing, we' ; re like way at the back of the, back of the room, so the, the sound isn' ; t all that great. Mary Doi: Mmm, okay. Gordon Yoshikawa: So you know what' ; s going on, you know the, the emotions that are going on, but you don' ; t hear words that much. I remember hearing Studs Terkel speak, but I don' ; t remember what he said. I can probably look at the video and, and go over it and hear it again. But I think being there is, is a little bit different on an emotional level. You know what' ; s going on. You know it' ; s a, also a historic thing going on and you know some of the people that are speaking. And so that' ; s, that' ; s an experience to sort of soak up. But with the availability of the video then you can go back and see people in, in real time at that time and, and hear them speak about their, their experience. That' ; s, that' ; s really nice to have, the fact that you weren' ; t really that close to it at the time. It' ; d be different if you were able to sit on the, the table where, where the committee was and you can hear it and you can soak it in that way, but from the back of the room it doesn' ; t have the same impact. So you know things are going on. But with the availability of the video, it' ; s really nice to see old friends speaking and hearing what their experience and their concerns were at the time. And people aren' ; t really angry, but they do show concern that what their parents and what they went through at the time was really devastating. And you' ; re able to see the, the committee people hear this for the first time and start soaking in all these experiences. And I' ; m glad that they were able to do that and then act on, on the presentations and went forth with the redress. Mary Doi: One of the questions I' ; m really interested in, and this is a more recent question, thinking about you know, the Civil Liberties Act is signed in 1988, the apologies go out, the money goes out. But are you, do you feel repaired for the wrong that was done to you and your family? My big question is what does repair look like? And can the government only do so much in, in facilitating repair? And if that' ; s the case, what else needs to happen or is that enough for repair? Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah, going from the end of that, I don' ; t know if that' ; s enough and I don' ; t know what they can do to make things any better because most of the people who has had damage done to them are no longer here. And you don' ; t know what their emotions were and what their feelings were at that time. You know it must' ; ve been devastating for them to be yanked out, lose their livelihood, find out that the government thinks you are the enemy. All these things going on. I don' ; t know that there' ; s, anything that can be done or that should have been done back then. Now it, it' ; s really too late for the people that, that experienced it. But the only thing that you can do is keep the information going so that people will know that this happened, really happened in the United States. I haven' ; t checked on current history books to see what they cover and how much they cover. I' ; m sure that at one point they started to include more and more, but then it may have sort of drifted back down to sort of a blip in, in time and that would be a sad thing. So whenever Pearl Harbor comes up, then internment and American concentration camps should also come up. And a lot of times the, the newspaper people would, would bring that up at that time. But then I think they should, they should be doing a little bit more. I had spoken to a high school book club. And this was I guess during COVID because we were all wearing masks. I had no idea what they looked like. But, but I had asked the, the kids, " ; Had you heard about evacuation?" ; And surprisingly over half had heard about it. And I would not have expected that because I don' ; t know that adults my age know about it. So if they haven' ; t come in contact with somebody that experienced it and talked about it, then they would be oblivious to that hadn' ; t taken place. So, so education is really important. Mary Doi: You know I, I loved your story about the Japanese-speaking kids. Was that a Futabakai school, the, the Japanese language kind of school. And how they not only heard your story but sort of absorbed your story to tell it themselves and to illustrate it even. And to me that' ; s a wonderful story about... It' ; s almost like a story about repair that while you may not be there to carry on the story, maybe these kids who speak Japanese will be one of the narrators of the history. You know? Gordon Yoshikawa: That could be, yeah. Mary Doi: One of the things you probably will hear about at the Rohwer pilgrimage, this is a concept that' ; s new to me, is the idea of intergenerational trauma. So even though you experienced it, I' ; m a little bit younger. And so I was born in the ' ; 50s, I didn' ; t experience it and certainly my grand-- my daughter who' ; s now in her 30s didn' ; t experience it. But for this youngest generation they talk about in-- they talk about intergenerational trauma that they' ; ve sort of inherited from me who inherited it from my parents and maybe my grandparents. So that' ; s a whole new set of ideas that you will probably hear about at the Rohwer pilgrimage, which means that you may also be experienced... You may be offered something called these intergenerational dialogue sessions. And I hope you signed up, I hope your cousin signed up for it because it really does refocus how I started to think about internment and its afterlife. And that you didn' ; t have to be there to actually be affected by it. You know and, and I could say, " ; Well, my parents were there, of course I was affected by it because my parents and grandparents were there." ; But for my daughter' ; s generation, it really, it, it is, it is like, it' ; s, it' ; s the thing that that' ; s the way they understand camp, they understand it through this lens of intergenerational trauma. So maybe you' ; ll hear more about that when we go to Rohwer, you know but I, I think that' ; s interesting how each generation is telling the story in a different perspective, from a different perspective. With a different lens with maybe more, yeah, just a different lens. Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah. I think people that were just around my sister' ; s age, which is maybe another 10, 15 years beyond mine, a lot of the people that age that I spoke with, weren' ; t angry. I think they were upset, but they weren' ; t angry. And they really didn' ; t talk about that in, in those terms. You know they would talk about the evacuation, talk about the ride on the train. And it might' ; ve been uncomfortable. There were soldiers with rifles and bayonets, but it' ; s something they see and say, " ; Oh, there it is." ; And it wouldn' ; t really affect them that adversely at, at that time. And they didn' ; t seem to be that affected by that when I spoke with them. So I don' ; t know whether part of that is more deep down. I' ; m sure that, that they would be angry at, had that taken effect at that time. And that they missed a lot of opportunities that they could have, had basically educationally and all that. But I' ; m really sorry that I haven' ; t, I didn' ; t get my parents to talk about it. And I think that' ; s the case with a lot of, of parents, they' ; re busy bringing up their kids. It' ; s post-evacuation, education is the main goal. And really don' ; t have time to talk about this. And that' ; s a shame that we miss some of that because I, I think the kids that were growing up at the time should have heard what their parents felt and what they went through. So that' ; s my biggest regret. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah. That there was so much silence within families, but it does seem like the redress movement made way for so much more openness, at least within subsequent generations. So-- Gordon Yoshikawa: Redress was a good thing because it broke open the silence. And people started talking about not just what camp were you in, but what were your experiences, you know? And it, it got beyond just the surface talk. So, however it came about, it' ; s a good thing that it happened. Katherine Nagasawa: Awesome. Well, I do feel like that might be a good place to end our conversation today. I just had one clarifying question because you talked about your, the older sister who was involved in JACL and who went to the signing of the Civil Liberties Act with you. What was her, what' ; s her full name just so we have it? Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh, her name is Frances Yoshikawa Tojo. Katherine Nagasawa: Okay, gotcha. And Mary, did you have any other last questions before we close out? Mary Doi: I don' ; t think so. And I, if I do, I' ; m going to ask him, I' ; m going to ask you at the Rohwer pilgrimage. Katherine Nagasawa: Yeah, that' ; s wonderful that you' ; ll be able to meet in person. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. This will be my daughter and my, our second time to go. Last time we went it poured, it absolutely poured and you know, bring rain gear. We got out of the bus at Rohwer and because there' ; s this little cemetery there, but Rohwer is actually in a soybean field. So you know, when it' ; s pouring you can' ; t really do much because it' ; s mud. But it was really a good illustration for me because that' ; s where my family was on both sides, they were at Rohwer. And so, you know, you talk about sandstorms in some places and freezing rain in other... Freezing winters, but Rohwer' ; s got mud, you know? Katherine Nagasawa: Very swampy, right? Mary Doi: Yeah. It' ; s swampy. And the town, we' ; ll go to McGehee, which is where there' ; s a delightful little museum and maybe George Takei will be there because it' ; ll be the 10th anniversary. Gordon Yoshikawa: Oh, he might be. Mary Doi: But the museum is also just a delight. It' ; s run by these older white women who take... I mean it' ; s almost like a mission for them to keep this story alive even though it' ; s not their story. And they love it when groups like the pilgrimage groups come through. You know they just... Gordon Yoshikawa: Yeah I went to the pilgrimage when they were expecting to get maybe a couple of hundred people and they got like 2,000. Mary Doi: Wow. Wow. Gordon Yoshikawa: And so that' ; s the time that I had gone, it was the first time there. Mary Doi: Ah, okay. Gordon Yoshikawa: And my late wife was with me, so she got to see Rohwer again. Mary Doi: Yeah, yeah. Gordon Yoshikawa: But at the time I went, the museum did not exist. And the person I guess that was active on that was Wada, Mr. Wada who was, who had been in Rohwer and, and stayed in McGehee or in that area. And MDC used to get reports from George Sakaguchi, who was also a MDC governor at one time, but he was making trips down to McGehee. And I think bringing back reports about restoration of the parts of the cemetery. And so I' ; m hoping that MDC paid for part of that, but I don' ; t know for sure. Mary Doi: Yeah, good to, good to hear that. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YoshikawaGordon20230410.xml YoshikawaGordon20230410.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Redress
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Yoshikawa, Gordon (4/10/2023)
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Gordon Yoshikawa, a nisei who resettled in Cincinnati, OH after being released from incarceration, discusses his involvement with the Cincinnati chapter of the JACL from the 1960s to the present day, focusing primarily on his memories of the redress movement. He describes how redress created an opportunity for former incarcerees who had remained silent for many year to open up about their experiences during WWII. He recalls his own experience as an audience member at the Chicago CWRIC hearings at NEIU, and reflects on his friends and aquaintances who testified. Notably, he shares details about attending, along with his sister, the presidential signing of the Civil Liberties Act in Washington, DC in 1988. He also describes some of his more recent experiences as a public speaker about Japanese American history.
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2023-04-10
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video
FSF JACS
Series: Redress
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yasutake, Kristine
OHMS Object Text
5.4 11/3/2017 Yasutake, Kris (11/3/2017) 1:42:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yasutake, Kris Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/602228767/04073fa083 Vimeo video < ; iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/602228767?h=04073fa083" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:00 You could just start by stating your full name. Kristine Y: 00:00:03 Kristine Yasutake. AT: 00:00:06 Where and when were you born? KY: 00:00:08 I was born in 1951 in Chicago on the South Side around the 43rd and Oakenwald area, but moved very soon after that to Hyde Park. So I don't even remember. You know, I was young enough when we moved that Hyde Park is the only place I know and that's where I grew up. AT: 00:00:27 And um, did your family move anywhere after that? After Hyde Park? KY: 00:00:32 Not my mom and dad. They stayed in Hyde Park until all their lives. The rest of the family moved away, like most of the Japanese community did, but my parents were devout Hyde Parkers. So-- AT: 00:00:45 And you've stayed in Chicago? KY: 00:00:47 I'm the only one. I'm in Lincoln Park, but the rest of the family's kind of all spread out now. AT: 00:00:53 Okay. Um, and like I mentioned, if you want to start by referring to your notes and then we can kind of open it up with any questions I might have for conversation. KY: 00:01:03 Okay. I apologize for having to look at notes, but this kinda got bigger than I thought. It got away from me and so I have not memorized any of it yet. So anyway, as I said, I grew up in Hyde Park. I'm Sansei, both my mom and dad grew up in, on the West coast and uh until Executive Order 9066 of course, upended their lives and they had to go to Tule Lake with their families. At the time of the internment, uh, my dad was 24. My mom was, I'm sorry, my mom was 24, my dad was 20. They didn't know each other in Tule Lake. They didn't meet each other until after the war when they settled here in Chicago. So this is their story, or rather, it's the bits and pieces that I've been able to assemble over the years because unlike, like, because like so many Sanseis my parents didn't really like to talk about those war years and at least not to their kids. KY: 00:02:05 So my mom would talk about life before the war, which she wouldn't say much about the war except to say kind of darkly: 'You think you know who your friends are but you don't really.' So-- AT: 00:02:21 And where in the West Coast were they from? KY: 00:02:23 Well, okay, I'm getting to that. Uh, my mom was from Medford, my dad was from Sacramento, but anyway, uh, my dad was a quiet man, more comfortable with books than people and he said little about his life at all. My parents are both long gone, but fortunately my dad, my mom's younger sister who always called herself Auntie Nanny is still alive and with us at age 98. She loves talking about the old days and her memory is still surprisingly good. She always said that one of the biggest problems with getting old is that she has now outlived all her old family and friends and she misses being able to talk to them. She's happy that I want to hear her stories, but I can only ask her questions. I can't really share her experience with her and I can't corroborate her memories. Uh, after my dad died, we cleaned up his apartment and I ended up with my mom's Tule Lake scrapbook and a box of old documents that had family photos and uh papers. My grandparents' Japanese passports, uh, photos of the family in Tule Lake ; Uh, my mom's tags that she wore like what on the bus to camp, uh, letters from the WRA (War Relocation Authority) interviews conducted with my family. Uh, luckily at the time, which was 10 years ago, I had the foresight to sit Auntie Nanny down when she was a mere 88 years old and ask her to tell me the stories behind the photos, which she did. She had almost perfect recall. Then I put the box of memorabilia under my bed and pretty much forgot about it for the next 10 years until in April of this year at a movie downtown about the resistance of Tule Lake. KY: 00:04:31 I met a man sitting a few rows in front of me who turned out to be Mike Takada of the JASC (Japanese American Service Committee). And he said: 'Oh, you know, Alphawood's doing a big exhibition about the internment and JASC is gonna, has been asked to uh work with them. We're going to be partnering'. And I said: 'Ah, I got this whole box of stuff under my bed. You guys might be interested in seeing it.' Well, to make a long story short, I was about to go to Paris in a few weeks for an extended period of time. So I pretty much just took a box and foisted it at Ryan Yokota and said, here, use anything you want. So anyway, that's how my family's memorabilia wound up being included in the display cases here after many emails between me and Rich [Cayan?] And Tony Herschel. KY: 00:05:30 Okay. I know more mom, my mom's side of the family than my dad's, so I'll begin with that. My maternal grandfather was named Kinai Saito and he originally came from Guna--Gunma Prefecture, which is near Tokyo. He was the third son of a poor farming family and life in rural Japan was pretty tough in those days. At that time, Japan was becoming a military power in Asia. And so around 1894 when he was 10 years old, the Japanese army came to his parents' farm and they rec--went, requisitioned his horse for the war effort. And he said it was the saddest day of his young life. Well, my grandpa didn't want to be a farmer, so he decided when he got older to take his chance and come to America. So he arrived in San Francisco by ship in 1906, he was 22 years old and he spoke no English. As a young bachelor, he was able to travel freely, which surprises me, up and down the West coast. So we know from San Francisco, he stayed in places like Seattle. He went all the way up to Alaska and he was always able to find work with other Japanese immigrants. He said he liked America, he liked the freedom here. So he was pretty happy. Anyway as a bachelor in America, he soon met two other bachelors, also Nisei like him, and they were to become his lifelong friends. The first one was Louis Machino, who was uh university educated in Japan, in Tokyo, and he spoke and wrote English almost perfectly even, you know, before he came. Now my, I remember my mom saying that Lou has uh got into some kind of trouble with the government of Japan because he was an outspoken Leftist, so he had to leave the country. The other, uh, Issei was their friend, uh [Gunji?] Fujimoto who was called Fuji-San and he spoke and wrote English pretty well too, although not as perfectly as Luo-San. Uh, when the U.S entered the war, first World War in 1917, Grandpa Saito. went to the draft board and said, I'll volunteer to fight in the army if the government will give me citizenship. And of course, they said no. So he went and boarded the boat back to Japan and decided where he was basically going to meet a wife and bring her back to America. And that's exactly what happened. Grandpa Saito met my future grandma, uh Kinko, Shesaki at Tokyo hospital where she was working as some sort of a nurse. Now, grandma Saito's family was from, uh, uh, let's see. Saitama Prefecture, which was, uh, near Tokyo, and she was also from a farming family, so I am not sure how she got trained to be a nurse, but somehow she managed to do so. And uh, at some point or another, some young son from the Imperial family of Japan had to stay at Tokyo hospital and she was part of the team that was selected to, uh, to take care of him. And that was considered to be a very great honor, especially in those times when people were not even allowed to look at the emperor. They had to look down on the street and advert gaze, whenever he or anyone from the royal family passed by. But okay. Kinko Shimasaki was a beautiful young woman and apparently Grandpa Saito took one look at her and he liked what he saw. So, and he fell in love immediately. Uh, grandma was quite present, progressive at the time and she didn't want to be a farmer's wife any more than he wanted to be a farmer. So she agreed to marry him and come back to America with him. So in 1917 they were married in Japan, got on the boat, and somehow, uh, they wound up in Medford, Oregon, which is where they raised their family. I guess--I'm actually guessing grandpa was there before in Medford. Okay. Medford, Oregon had a population of about 20,000 back then. It was a really small urban town, all white, of course, rural community. And at the time there were only 36 Japanese people. Grandma and grandpa had a, a big house and a yard out in the countryside. Grandpa owned a dry cleaning business in Medford where he took care of the operations side and grandma worked behind the counter dealing with the customers. She liked learning English. And soon she spoke English better than he did. They had enough space on their property to rent rooms to seasonal Japanese farm workers who would stay about a year and then they'd move on. KY: 00:11:03 My mom Akiko Saito, Aki, was born in 1918 and two years later, her sister, Naoko Saito, Auntie Nanny was born. While they were young girls. Grandpa Saito invited Lou and Fuji, his old friends to live with them and they became part of the extended family. In the 1940 census records, they're listed as lodgers in the home, but they were actually really treated like uncles. Lou and Fuji, who were in the restaurant business and they worked for a very nice German immigrant man who owned a pretty upscale American-style restaurant in Medford and he hired them. So cor-- Uh, Fuji was kind of the manager. Uh, Lou was the chef and, uh, my mom and Auntie Nanny were put to work after school, helping out in the restaurant ; making pastry and doing kitchen chores because Fuji said 'young people get in trouble if they aren't kept busy'. Aunt Nanny sort of remembers those days and sighs and says 'there are child labor laws against that now' [light laugh]. When I look at the old photos of my mom and Auntie Nanny, I see two young, confident, smiling, happy girls posing with their schoolmates. My mom wearing tutu and uh ballet tights in her class, doing splits. Auntie Nanny wearing like a school band uniform playing an accordion. They're the only Japanese girls in their class, but they look like they're as assimilated as you could be in those times. Mom was even the Vice President of the Girl's League in high school. My grandma, my mom and Auntie Nanny were all Methodists and they attended Methodist church in Medford. But my dad, my grandpa remained a Buddhist. The photos of the Isseis in Medford, showed them wearing smart American clothes, the men wearing suits and bowler hats looking very dapper and the women wearing nice dresses and millinery, life was good. The Saitos had enough money to buy a car and after she graduated from high school, they had enough money to send my mom to Chouinard Art School in California. Grandma Saito hoped that one day she would, the law would change and she too could become an American citizen, which was her dream. KY: 00:13:49 In contrast, dad's family was very traditionally Japanese. His father, Asakichi Yasutake emigrated from the Fukuoka prefecture in Japan, which is Southern Japan. Around the same time as Grandpa Saito did, which we're guessing is about 1907. He too lived as a bachelor in California-- for years. But when it came time to marry, Grandpa Yasutake chose a picture bride, my grandma, Mitsuko Funakoshi also from a farming community in Fukuoka. They operated a cleaning business in Sacramento where my dad and his brothers and sister grew up. My dad, Hiroshi Yasutake, later known as Gary was born in 1922, the second son. The Yasutakes lived in Japantown, in the Japan town, part of Sacramento, a half a block from the Buddhist temple. There were a lot of Japanese living in Sacramento at the time, so you could get by not speaking any English [chuckles] if you stayed in the Japanese community. And so my grandparents never did learn English. Uh, they were devout Buddhists. They were very traditional. And not only did they go to temple regularly, they sent my dad's older brother to Japan for an education. In other words, he was Kibei. My dad was something of a nerd, studied hard and graduated near the top of his high school class. So the Yasutakes had enough money to send him to Sacramento Junior College where he graduated with a major in premed and the plan was for him to continue his studies and become a doctor. KY: 00:15:40 So in 1942, both of my parents are college students in California. Then Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. And we all know what happened after that. So they had to leave school to join their respective families on their journeys to Tule Lake. Both the Saitos and the Yasutakes lost everything they had worked so hard to earn: their businesses and their homes. I imagine life until Tule Lake for my, my parents families wasn't much different than it was for anyone else there. Uh, everybody knows the horror stories about the heat and the dust storms and scorpions and snakes and lack of privacy. Uh, Tule Lake was so remote that even though it was surrounded by barbed wire and the towers with the armed guards, uh, I heard that no one was really worried about anybody escaping because you'd die in the desert. So anyway, Tule Lake is located in Newell, California, but Auntie Nanny says, 'we always called it New-hell, not Newell'. At the time they were interned, mom was 24. Auntie nanny was 22. Grandpa Saito was 58 and Grandma Saito was 51. So the Saitos were all assigned to live together in one big, one barrack, a tarpaper shack. 'Ah, yes. Home sweet home', Auntie Nanny said when she saw the photo of the tarpaper shack here in Alphawood, in the exhibition. Uh, Lou and Fuji, you were assigned to live in some barracks that they had set up for all the bachelors, the single men. Everybody at Tule Lake had some kind of work detail. So grandpa was doing carpentry, grandma was working in the mess hall and Lou and Fuji as cooks of course, were cooking, which they were very welcomed of course. And my auntie says, everybody told them being cooks was the best job you could have in camp because at least you would never go hungry. So anyway, mom and Auntie Nanny joined the recreation committee at Tule Lake, known as [the Wreckers?]. And they helped organize dances and variety shows. Uh mom taught ballet at the Tule Lake dance studio and everybody did what they could to keep their spirits up. KY: 00:18:21 When the WRA announced that the Niseis could leave camp if they were accepted as students at a university or got employment, my mom and dad applied. Now remember, they didn't know each other yet, not until Chicago. So, uh, my mom's WRA interview report says: "Worked for Caucasians, lived with Caucasians mixed with Caucasians, won't have any trouble outside, good looking, neat appearance, talks and writes intelligently." Unquote. So mom was accepted as a student at the school of the art Institute of Chicago where she majored in fashion design and would win an award for, uh, uh dre- a dress, she designed. And this news was covered in the local papers under titles like: 'Evacuee Student Wins Fashion Award'. Dad had been working as an orderly at Tule Lake-based hospital. So when he saw an ad placed by a doctor at the university hospital in Ann Arbor, he applied and was accepted. The WRA approved his request to leave with the condition that he, that a military permit must be obtained for travel through the evacuated areas. He was 22 years old at the time. He was paid 53 cents an hour, which I was told is about the going rate for Niseis at the time. KY: 00:19:55 In 1943, the government and the WRA forced all adults in the camps to answer that infamous loyalty questionnaire. Tule Lake would soon be transformed into a segregation center housing only the disloyals. Grandma and Grandpa Saito and Auntie Nanny would be transferred to Minidoka. My dad's younger brother, Uncle Tom had answered "no" to question 28. The only member of the family who had done that when he was 19 years old. Dad told him that he better change his answer to "yes" or he was going to be separated from the rest of the family. So an interviewer from the review board for segregation wrote on his notes "bitter over evacuation", "misunderstanding". His brother had been relocated and has been very well treated and this has overcome his prejudice. So he wishes to change his "yes", his answer to "yes" and relocate. So they allowed him to change his answer and the family chose to relocate to Topaz where my dad's married, older brother was already living and when the government reclassified all the Nisei men to One A. In fact, Uncle Tom volunteered for the army, not the 442nd, the regular U.S army and was sent to Tokyo post-war for the next two years. When my dad was working as an orderly at the, at the hospital in Ann Arbor, he wrote to the military intelligence, uh, school language laboratory, le- language school at Fort Shelby asking to be accepted in their program. My dad spoke and wrote Japanese passably well because he had attended Japanese classes in Sacramento and so they called him in for an interview. He received a letter saying that he had been judged to be (quote) "linguistically qualified for further training at this headquarters preparatory to combat intelligence duty" all after a series of letters back and forth explaining how first he had to be inducted in the army and placed on some kind of special reserve corps and you know, a bunch of delays. He uh, got a final letter saying okay, you're to report to class at MIS (Military Intelligence Service) beginning October 1945. Well, in September, 1945, the war ended before he left to start classes. KY: 00:22:36 So anyway, the Niseis in my family had left camp before the war ended because they all found jobs on the outside, but my grandparents and other Isseis would remain in the camps pretty much until they closed. Now Grandma and Grandpa Saito had petitioned for early release from Minidoka and submitted the names of some of their hakujin (white person), friends and neighbors in Medford as references. The government did indeed contact these people because included in my family's files from Tule Lake, I mean, sorry, not Tule Lake from well, the government files. We found a letter written by a woman, obviously somebody they had known and trusted. The gist of the letter was, yes, I knew the Saito family back then in Medford and they were really nice people, but they've been in camp for years now and who knows if that has made them bitter and distrustful and besides they're Japanese underlined twice for emphasis and she recommended they not be released and they were not released until September 1945. I think this is what my mom was referring to when she said, yeah, 'ya never know who your friends are' ; having lost everything in Medford, including the trust of the people they thought they knew. Grandma and Grandpa Saito decided to join mom and Auntie Nanny in Chicago. They lived on the Northside in the area around Clark & ; Division where other Japanese families had settled. The Yasutake family all settled on the South Side in the area around 45th and Berkeley where all great many Japanese families had originally settled right after they got out of the camps. My dad had also moved from Ann Arbor to Chicago, and so he was living with his parents and brothers and at the same place until he met and married my mom. And they moved out to their own apartment nearby. One by one, all the Niseis in my family begin to marry and start having their own families. Auntie Nanny met and married Kenneth Yahiro and they moved, they bought a house in Park Ridge and my Auntie Nanny is still living there. Grandma and Grandpa Saito moved into an apartment on the 900 block of West Newport up near Wrigley field. Uh, and the day-- my dad's family, the Yasutake clan, pulled their resources and they bought a big three flat apartment in what is now the Andersonville neighborhood, and each of the kids took one floor. So we've got my dad's oldest brother and his family on the top floor, the younger brother and his family on the middle floor and on the ground floor, his sister and her family. And everybody's got kids and also they've got grandma and grandpa Yasutake living with them. So the whole family's all together in the one building there. KY: 00:25:59 Mom and dad decided to live to Hyde Park, move to live in Hyde Park. So my sister and brother and I were all born, sorry, we're not born there, we all grew up on the 5600 block of Maryland near the university of Chicago. Hyde Park was the liberal multicultural neighborhood even back in the 50s and my parents felt comfortable there. My mom had been a Methodist. My dad had been a Buddhist, but they decided to join the Unitarian Church in Hyde Park where they remained, uh, active members all their lives. And naturally they sent us kids there to the same church. So as kids, we did not attend Japanese school. We did not attend Buddhist Temple. We did not join the Japanese boy scout and girl scout troops, they were being created up on the Northside. My mom said she didn't want to be clannish and only hang out with Japanese Americans. And part of this stemmed from the fact that in Medford she had not grown up in a Japanese community anyway, but also I'm sure part of it had to do with the trauma of the, the relocation and the internment and uh, the WRA (War Relocation Authority) directives to the first Niseis who were allowed to leave camps, to not speak Japanese and to not associate with other Japanese unless they had to. So, and just as tellingly, we were not given Japanese middle names unlike most other Sanseis I know. In fact, my brother, his middle name is Louis, named after Lou from the old Medford days. But twice a year we'd behave like any other Japanese family. In the summers, every year there was a group called Fukuoka Kenjinkai that used to sponsor picnics in the uh park near (mantras?) beach and it last all day long. Everybody from the Fukuoka region, including the Yasutakes all came to the picnics with their families and they brought all this Japanese food and American food and they organized races for the kids and the adults alike. And the prizes were like big (cans of?) Kikkoman shoyu and 50 pound sacks of rice, which probably didn't last that long in those days because the Isseis were still eating rice three times a day. Anyway, it was a lot of fun and I still remember that. KY: 00:28:48 And every year our family of six would take the L (train) together, all the way up to the North Side to Andersonville to go visit the Yasutakes where grandma always put out this enormous spread. The whole table just covered with food. She was a great cook and so tempura and sushi and sashimi and everything. I mean it was just insane. And along with a bunch of stuff like those boring boiled vegetables, whose names I can't remember, and that red fish, it's supposed to be a carp in Japan, but here they used some kind of red snapper and you had to coil it up just right ; So that it was supposed to look like it was uh jumping out of the stream. And of course there was ozoni and a sip of sake in the morning first for good luck for the new year. So before stepping into the house, mom would always coach us to say: "(speaking Japanese)" in which we'd say to grandma and grandpa. And I knew, you know, that was all we knew and my grandma would fuss at my dad, "why don't you teach the kids how to speak Japanese?" But luckily for us, grandma and Grandpa Saito spoke English pretty well, so we were able to get to know them growing up. So I remember going up to their apartment in-- on West Newport, near Wrigley field and w-- and I've, we've got a lot of happy and funny memories of them. Grandma Saito tried to teach me to make sushi and I remember she was flabbergasted when I asked her, how come I had to sit there and fan it with those paper fans and why couldn't we just put it under the fan to cool? She just looked at me like "what"? And then grandpa would was always a trickster and he was always like playing jokes on us kids. He had, at that point he was completely bald. He was the only bald person we knew and we were fascinated by his head and he used to let us feel his head. So, and here we get props a prop. He used to tell us that his hair would grow back the next time we saw him. So I remember, this may have even been the same puppet, but at least we had one like that. He said, if we took this puppet and like did this on his head, that in fact his hair would grow back. So each of us did that and we were young enough that we actually believed him. So the next time we came back, we said, "you don't have your hair yet!" And he said, "Ah, it didn't work". And then he'd make up some other thing we had to do. And every time he said, next time for sure, hair ; while we believed this for awhile, because we were pretty young anyway. KY: 00:31:45 When I was 11 and my brother was 9, uh, on what se-- we went on what seemed to be this epic journey on the Santa Fe railroad to go see the old family friends from Medford. So it took us three days and two nights to get there. And since we didn't even have a car at that time, I had hardly ever been out of Hyde Park. And this was just a real journey. So anyway, uh, soon after the war, before she was married, Auntie Nanny had gone back to visit her old Medford friends, but she was the only one. And so now, all these years later, finally, mom and grandma Saito and grandpa Saito, her parents, were gonna make this epic trip to see the friends that they hadn't seen for nearly 20, 20 years at that point. And, uh, I think they all knew that this was probably gonna be the only time they'd see them because at that point the Isseis, were all in their seventies. So we stayed with their old friends in Medford and I remember being shocked by how small it was and how rural, having grown up in Chicago. And we finally got to meet Fuji and Lou, who we called Uncle Fuji and Grandpa Lou, who were now living as bachelors in Los Angeles. And sure enough, it was the last time we would see them. A few years later, Grandpa Louis died but at least he'd gotten to meet his namesake, my brother. When the government finally announced that Isseis could become American citizens, Grandma Saito happily enrolled in a program of citizenship classes and English classes. She had never given up her dream of becoming an American citizen and she had always told her daughters: "this is the best country in the world, you'd be proud to be Americans". And now she was hoping she too could become an American citizen and finally realize her dream. Well, unfortunately she died before that happened. Grandpa decided-- Grandpa Saito decided that rather than living in Chicago here as a bachelor, well not bachelor as a widow, he was going to go back to Los Angeles to live with Uncle Fuji. So he did and they, the two of them were staying there together until when grandpa was 87, he got sick and had to come back here and he moved in with Auntie Nanny and her family in Park Ridge. So he'd lived a long life. He was very calm, very philosophical. He was still a Buddhist, but before he died he decided to convert to be a Methodist just in case grandma was right about Methodist heaven. He said, well, if she's there in Methodist heaven, he didn't want her to be there by herself. And if she was wrong, no harm done. So, so he converted. My mom and dad were much more conflicted about their feelings. They felt betrayed and bitter about the internment because they were American citizens and good Americans, very assimilated only to learn that it hadn't been enough. There wasn't enough money left to for my mom to continue her studies at the art Institute. And there wasn't enough money left for my dad to, to go on to med school. Although he did go to Roosevelt University here in Chicago and completed a degree in chemistry, but many of their early dreams would never come true. KY: 00:35:40 Uh, it was only after my siblings and I became adults that mom began to send us the occasional thing she clipped out of a newspaper or magazine and she'd write little comments about it and mail it to us. So, I have a copy of, uh, of a from a page of a book about Tule Lake describing Thanksgiving and Christmas in 1943. Mom's cousin, uh, Perry Saito was a pretty well known Methodist minister there at, uh, Tule Lake. So mom wrote: "I speak only for myself. I shall never ever forget that first Thanksgiving and Chri- and Christmas. The services were so stark and so moving beyond anyone's wildest imagination, I never felt so alone and betrayed as I did at that time. And the impact of all of us gathering there and under the same circumstance is still within me and I can never fully tell you that feeling of being of being (lost?), words fail. I cry inside every time I think of those desperate days up there". By the mid 1980's my mom, who was-- always been outspoken about everything except the internment got outspoken about that too. And so when a teacher she knew from the Unitarian church, asked her if she'd be willing to come and speak to his, uh, his high school class about the subject. She said, "why not?" And agreed. And then later on she was interviewed by the local newspaper, the Hyde Park Herald, about her wartime experiences and her guarded hopes for the restitution, which hadn't happened yet, at that point. She did not pull her punches. "It was racism, pure and simple", she said. My dad never talked to anyone. Instead, he bought every book ever written on the subject of the internment. Since he couldn't find his words, he looked to others for theirs. It's always easier to talk to strangers than it is to talk to family. And I regret that I never had a heart to heart than--with, sorry, give me a second [Yasutake begins to cry]. I never had a heart to heart with my parents and my mom's case. Her death at age at 90, at 74 was a bit of a surprise, but my dad lived until age 84 and his health was failing. So I know I shouldn't wait too long, but I did. It seemed hypocritical to me to suddenly ask him about his experiences, uh, when we'd never talked about it before. So after a lifetime of not knowing who he was, so he, his secrets with them except for that box family memorabilia that I had. I do that. And then I turned two in April of this year. So that's when I looked in the documents and found the paper trail about my dad's brother in question 28. And I remembered hearing when I was a kid about how uncle Tom might've been a known, Oh boy, I'd heard it whispered by my mom, I think because in April this year when I called uncle Tom's widow, my Auntie Nanny, Auntie Nancy, to ask her what she knew, she had no idea what I was talking about. KY: 00:39:21 Apparently Uncle Tom had never told his wife or his children about how he answered. Question 28 if you want, I can pull those documents out of the box I'm giving to the JASC. I said, no. She said, this is what really happened. It's part of history. Go ahead and let them see it. We'd always seen photos of Uncle Tom in his army uniform, but we'd never know the back story. Maybe he thought we wouldn't understand. In that same box, the family memorabilia, I'd also found the paper trail showing how dad applied to MIS and been accepted, but hadn't actually been inducted because the war had ended before he had time to report to Fort Shelby. So in April of this year, I found dad's sister, my Auntie Mary, who is 86 year old now. And I asked her what she knew. Your dad was never an MIS. She insisted. I said no, but he would've been if the war hadn't ended. So I read part of the document to her. Gee, I never knew that she said, and her husband, my Uncle Kiki, who'd been listening in on the speakerphone concurred. Is that right? Well, your dad never said much about those times. You know, he never really got over it. Hm. Did my brother and sisters know about dad in the MIS? I asked myself yesterday, yesterday I asked myself, so I emailed them with the simple question. Was dad ever in the MIS? And each of them said no. They thought because he had a heart murmur, he wasn't eligible for service. Well, that was the same thing I had been told my whole life. So I, since my dad never talked about his life, I'm guessing my mom must have told us that, since all four of us remembered it. Which leads me to the question as of yesterday, what if my mom didn't know either? Here I am thinking it was strange that Uncle Tom never told his wife and kids about question 28. When, in my family, maybe my dad never told his wife and kids about applying to MIS. So we've got a pretty similar situation here. KY: 00:41:59 I mean, the issue of the Nisei, uh, in the service during the war of course was very controversial is we, you know, we all know from the George Takei, a Broadway musical allegiance, it tore families apart. And I think a lot of people just decided they weren't even gonna go there. Uh, possibly my dad thought his own father and possibly even his older brother. Cause I remember, uh, my grandparents had come from Japan and my old, his older brother had lived in Japan. He's Kibei, maybe he thought they wouldn't approve of it. And while pretty much everybody agreed that, okay, you know, even if you didn't agree about the circumstances of volunteering from the camps, everybody pretty much agreed that going to fight the Nazis in Europe was fine, going to work for MIS, if you think about it, is a whole different kettle of fish because you are being asked to work against Japan. You are being hired because you speak Japanese. So your intelligence to work is against Japan, which in fact is what happened. People working the Japanese working at MIS help crack the code for the Imperial Navy and they say, uh, helped end the war probably two years earlier. Anyway, I think it was just too controversial. My dad said nothing and if I hadn't found the paper trail I wouldn't have a clue either. But fortunately my dad never met a piece of paper he didn't like, he kept everything. And so we've got the documents. So this concludes my version of the family history. If you were to talk to my siblings and my cousins, you'd get a different story from each one of us. So much has been lost, misremembered, confused, suppressed. My dad's sister, Auntie Mary was only 11 when she was interned at Tule Lake, so although she's still alive, her memories are those of a child, which are different. So I've tried to construct my family's memories for them. So let me on the story with 98 year old Auntie Nanny, summary of her wartime experiences, unrelenting optimist, and the happiest person I know she likes to say, I look back on the camp experiences and in a way I'm glad they happened. I don't know how to explain that. I know terrible things happen to us in those years, but in many ways they were the happiest years of my life because I made such good friends in camp and we remained best friends all our days of our lives. So thank you JASC. Thank you Alphawood. Thank you Anna Takada. AT: 00:44:56 Thank you. Cause that was, wow. KY: 00:45:02 It was really long. It got carried away kind of like AT: 00:45:04 No, no KY: 00:45:04 It just kept getting longer and longer and I was adding to it even this morning before I came, so. I kind of didn't know where to end, but I decided the cut off was just to keep it my grandparents' and my parents' story cause my siblings and cousins who are alive can tell their own stories if they want to continue. I think I gave enough. AT: 00:45:23 Yeah. Thank, thank you so much for not only for coming in, but I mean putting that together. That's uh, that's incredible. And I, I think, I'm sure your family will value having, a, a narrative form of your family's story. KY: 00:45:39 Well, I think actually they'll, if they ever see it, they'll look at it and I'll hear nothing but fusing. "That didn't happen! Who said that? No, are you sure that's true?!" Anyway, I have some, a few family photos which I'll stick in front of the camera. AT: 00:45:53 Okay. Let's see. KY: 00:45:57 Am I close enough? AT: 00:45:57 It may be a little dark, but um, you can also. KY: 00:46:00 Turn on the light? AT: 00:46:00 Um yeah. KY: 00:46:10 Does that work? AT: 00:46:13 Yeah, we can also scan these if that's all right with you. KY: 00:46:16 Oh AT: 00:46:16 Bring it, here do you mind, just hold it down. KY: 00:46:22 Okay. AT: 00:46:22 Yeah, I think it might be best to scan cause it's taking a minute for them to KY: 00:46:26 Oh, okay AT: 00:46:26 Adjust KY: 00:46:27 Alright AT: 00:46:31 Um, but we can still go over them and maybe I can take note of KY: 00:46:37 Okay AT: 00:46:37 Which ones they are so we can match them up. KY: 00:46:42 Um, Grandma Saito, before she got married. I mean beautiful. I can see why Grandpa fell for her. Photos of them growing up in Medford. Now the best photos unfortunately are in the exhibit here in Alphawood. So. Grandma's Saito, mom, Auntie Nanny. AT: 00:47:03 And these, there are ones that I, I actually did see in the video in the 2007. KY: 00:47:14 Okay. Yep. She's gone through them so. AT: 00:47:16 Cause and you were commenting on the hair of the dolls. KY: 00:47:20 Dolls. AT: 00:47:21 The weird dolls. KY: 00:47:21 And one of them was like bald, I think that one. And so Grandpa took blue magic marker or something and filled it in. So you know, we've got that dapper photo of him with the suit and bowler downstairs. But that's in the exhibit so I can't show. So this was the only photo that I had with them. So this is their place in Medford. This is Grandpa Lou. Oh, very debonair. 1907, hes, uh, he's written himself in English, new machine, 1907 so, so that's probably what he looked like when he first met Grandpa Saito. And here he is just an old man. Yeah that's Fuji. So this is about 10 years before we met him. He was, he's a cook. AT: 00:48:02 And you all were saying he looks like Gumby? KY: 00:48:03 Yeah. AT: 00:48:05 So now I, now I know who he is. Cause in the video you were just talking about him. KY: 00:48:08 Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So this is the Yasutakes, Grandma and Grandpa Yasutake. That's my dad, there's Uncle Tom. No boy. But that's what the grandparents looked like when they're older. You know they're living up in Andersonville. It's probably the table. They only have the one big table where we had the big New Years spread. So my mom and dad's wedding picture, that's what they looked like. And then this is how grandma and grandpa Saito looked like we were growing up. So that's my mom, dad, me, my brother, my little sister that's Aunty Yanny and my youngest sisters and born yet. And so Auntie nanny must not be married yet cause otherwise Uncle Kenneth would be in the picture too. So anyway, that's what they look like growing up. You see he's got that bald head! We were just fascinated by that. We just remember rubbing it. We just thought it was. So, I don't know. We're fascinated. We were a little in back and see little kids here. AT: 00:49:12 And, sorry, did you say this was Hyde Park or Andersonville KY: 00:49:14 No, no, no this was was their house. AT: 00:49:16 Andersonville. KY: 00:49:16 No, this is Newport. AT: 00:49:19 Oh, okay. So this is your mom's, mom's side. KY: 00:49:22 Saito, this is my mom's AT: 00:49:24 Oh right, and this one. KY: 00:49:24 So cause I recognize this painting I saw this was a Saito house. Grandma had like french impressionist paintings, like Renoir paintings and stuff on the wall, which now that i think about it was kind of odd. But anyway, so that's, that's how they, that's how I remember them. AT: 00:49:44 Okay, great. Yeah, we'll have to capture some of those. Um, and then if you, KY: 00:49:52 These i'll scan by just one to show you. My mom and her like the interview and all her comments about, you know, and this, she's going through the scrapbook. I mean there was a scrap, but that's where all these pictures got pulled out from. But she's actually flipping through the script talking about things. And so you've got all her comments when she's doing like you'll know pretty outspoken. That was her way. And then you know, I just her copies. AT: 00:50:21 Okay. KY: 00:50:22 Sorry. AT: 00:50:23 That's ok KY: 00:50:23 I don't know any other families, you know I've asked people. But we got all these documents, they have handwritten notes and stuff. AT: 00:50:30 Yeah, AT: 00:50:30 it's like the uh, after the war, a lot of documents were like, I don't know what, went on to uh, computerized records. But of course they never do like interview notes. AT: 00:50:44 Right. KY: 00:50:44 So if you go on Google you can find people and it's helpful, you know, the information you know like how they were, when they entered camp and moving where, but you don't get any of this stuff was nobody ever sat down and wrote all these notes about them. So, AT: 00:51:00 Yeah, and actually, um KY: 00:51:02 So like that was the stuff about Uncle Tom them though, you know the notes stuff. You know Interview notes about mom "worked with caucasian and mixed with caucasian" "neat appearance" stuff. There's a whole bunch of other stuff too. I just wanted to show you. AT: 00:51:20 Thank you for bringing these KY: 00:51:21 These are all in that box too. But they made the decision here not to put any of this stuff in the exhibit. So I mean I guess from an artistic standpoint it doesn't look like anything. In fact, most people don't stand there, read this stuff anyway, but. AT: 00:51:37 And then these are, these are pretty fascinating. KY: 00:51:39 Yeah, that's what I thought too. So I was really surprised. And I thought, oh well. AT: 00:51:44 Well nd um, if you have a few more minutes, I'd love to talk to you a little bit more. KY: 00:51:47 Sure. AT: 00:51:47 About, all of this. KY: 00:51:51 Sure, yeah. Oh I just bought the, completely separate thing. Wednesday November 2nd, where did they get some of this weird stuff? You know, I mean, this doesn't do anybody, any service: Number people who survived the camp 60,000 less. It looks like a death camp. They come up with crap like that. I thought this was nobody a service. AT: 00:52:28 Interesting. KY: 00:52:29 It makes the whole thing look suspicious now. I mean, Doesn't look like a death camp under 120,000 going in 60,000 coming out. AT: 00:52:38 Yeah, that's not clear KY: 00:52:38 That's terrible. I saw that at the time and I just thought let it go. It's too late. It's like alright, they've already handled that out. So I'm assuming at least nobody except the people who were at the show. And it was a very rainy night. So not that many people were there, but I thought, Oh well, I don't know where it came from, but not good. Somebody needs to fact check stuff a little bit. AT: 00:53:07 Yeah. KY: 00:53:07 Before this stuff goes out AT: 00:53:09 I'll definitely, I'm happy and willing to look into that cause it's strange. KY: 00:53:17 Um, well that's the problem with handouts people do on their own. AT: 00:53:20 Sure. KY: 00:53:20 You never know what they're going to put on it. AT: 00:53:24 Um, well just, just to start off the bat, um, I would love to hear from you a little bit more about the process of, um, kind of putting this piece together, um, that you came up with for today. Um, just because you did such a great job of capturing, you know, your family story in writing and I'm wondering is this something you've been working on or KY: 00:53:54 I had a different document, much shorter, but also with a different focus that I put together in two weeks back in April. Because originally, you know, when I talked to your dad he said, well you know, I mean, I said I've got, nobody had seen it. They had no idea what I was talking about. He said, well you know you can send us, you know, why don't you scan some things and write a description of it. And I th- I started doing it and I thought it's going to take longer to do that, you know, than it is just to tell a story. And I didn't know what documents they were going to use anyway. Course, I don't think he had any idea how many documents I had. So I thought a bunch of photos without a story doesn't really say anything anyway. So I thought, okay, I got to write a story. So before I go to Paris, I'm always trying to like get everything together. And I thought, Oh, here we go again. I always seem to have some major project that needs to be done. So I just sat there and started putting together a draft for what I thought they might be interested in. And then of course I had to fact check everything I'm going, Oh what year was that? A, it's like quick, you know, Googling all these things. When did the, you know, is this reasonable or not? And then I had to do that, you know, well what camp was it? Was it, you know, was it Topaz or was it Heart? We and I couldn't even remember that stuff cause we never talked about it. So I had to go through the documents and, and put them in order by date and sort of just sort of figure that stuff out. AT: 00:55:35 So a lot of this, it sounds like was very recent. KY: 00:55:39 Yeah. Yeah. It's like the bare bones in the first document, which was about only a couple pages long, was an April. And that's the document that I sent to Mike Takada who then passed it on to Ryan Yokota. And so when I walked in with the box, I said, okay, here's the story. And everybody kept saying, ah, you know, we don't, we don't need this, yes. It's like Alphawood told us we're not going to need personal stuff until later in the year and you'll be back from Paris then. And I said, Oh, you know, just take it all anyway. I said, because if I know if I were going to mount an exhibit, I would at least want to know what was available to me, can't hurt. So I basically said, here, just take it. Ah, okay. And put it away in the box. I mean, in a, Ryan's, uh, room in a, in a locked filing cabinet. So where it stayed until I surprise of all surprises in June, a weeks before the exhibition open, I get email from everybody saying we changed our mind, we changed our mind. We decided we can't just go with the big pictures on the wall. We have to have some personal stuff too. Can we use this? Uh, it was like, "wah!" If I had known this, I would have like written on the backs of photos and things like who people were. And so Rich [Cayan?] was literally like scanning things, sending me things saying, "is this your dad?" "No, it's his brother," you know? "Is this your mom?" "No, it's some total stranger," I've no idea who this is, so we had, we had a bunch of that stuff. So AT: 00:57:21 As far as the, um, you had mentioned that you inherited the box of documents. Um, ten years ago KY: 00:57:30 I got it about 10 years ago and I just kinda looked through them then said, ok. But I hadn't actually sat there and read through it, so I put it away and I really hadn't thought about it. I think in the last 10 years I might've gone to that box once and it was for a completely different reason. So it just sat there and I didn't think about it until I ran into Mike at the screening of the Tule Lake movie and suddenly said, Oh, so actually the first thing, one of the first things I had to do was go get my mom's scrapbook back because it had been sitting at Auntie Nannies for years. I had left it there after I interviewed her because she liked looking at it. So we just left it on the dining room table there. And at some point or another had gotten put away somewhere, we didn't know where. And so my poor cousin Lauren was looking through the whole box trying to find it, you know, and said l gotta have the scrapbook gotta have the scrapbook, I'm getting ready to leave for Paris. So she found it. So that's how we got all this stuff. So I had just the bare bones at that point of what I was gonna do. And then when I realized I was going to do the interview, when I, I mean I had told you, it had always, sort of been my intention to do an interview, but I thought, "Ehh, ehh, ehh, yeah, yeah, yeah." And I kinda kept putting it off, but then I started attending the share your story sessions here, Saturdays and listening to what other people said and how they did it and getting ideas. And so I thought, well, why not? So I just sat down and a couple of days ago basically just wrote this, I used as sort of the bare bones, the information I'd already like found out in April for the first draft, the one that I'd sent to Tony and you know, Ryan and everybody at a, you know, Alphawood and JAC they, they had seen that, but it didn't have as much stuff because I didn't know if they were in fact gonna use any of my parents' stuff. And I didn't have time to write anything longer. So I pretty much just started this, uh, Tuesday, Tuesday. I started Tuesday, thought I'd be completely done, uh, didn't finish and kept adding things and rearranging things and AT: 00:59:54 Well, it's, it's great and it's definitely a valuable resource to have. Um, so, and one thing that has been coming a lot in these conversations and interviews with folks and as I'm sure you know with sharing stories as well, um, a lot of, uh, Sansei and even Yonsei have kind of described this process of learning about their family's story as piecing together. Just like doing a, making a puzzle, you know, trying to piece things together. KY: 01:00:30 It's lot of missing pieces! AT: 01:00:32 Right. And yeah I think that's a very [inaudible]. KY: 01:00:32 And sometimes pieces belong to a different puzzle. You're looking at a guy, I don't think this is right. You know, they start getting confused and you're hearing somebody else's story or the right story with the wrong people or something where you go [shakes head] "Can't be, this can't be." AT: 01:00:47 And I'm wondering if you can, um, tell me a little bit about, um, your own journey of learning your family's story, starting with, um, whatever you heard as a child. Did your family, you said that your family didn't, really talk about it. KY: 01:01:04 They didn't really talk about it. So almost most of what I've learned, I've learned really, really, really recently or like I found up the stuff that we had heard as a child wasn't completely correct. So you never know like what a, what to trust and not to trust. I mean, we all thought my dad had a medical deferment, you know, but then I've got his, uh, included in the box, the famous, infamous docs, all his draft cards. He'd saved them all. And so you can flip through them and it's like a, he had the same classification that every other Nisei had. You know, where the, what is it, the foreign, the alien thing, I forget. Anyway. AT: 01:01:52 The 4C? KY: 01:01:52 Yeah, 4C. Yeah, it's like he wasn't even there for military deferment. Then all of a sudden he goes, well, Hey. And it was like, "hmm", perhaps then, that's why he sent the letter to MIS rather than being, you know, in the army. AT: 01:02:06 And what, can you describe what that experience has been like of kind of doing this investigative work? Um, you know, very recently, um, has anything surprised you? KY: 01:02:22 Oh, all sorts of things have surprise me, you know, like that, but I haven't gotten into this as much as I could. I mean, I know other people really, you know, they go into ancestry.com and they really go into that stuff and in fact Rich Cayan and emailed me the boat records, you know, the ship records he found from grandpa first coming over. I mean, we'd never seen those documents, but you know, he knew how to do this as a professional historian, whereas I just kind of stumbled into this and my information is all like what you can get free on Google. And there's so much info, misinformation there too. I mean, half the stuff, my, the names are completely misspelled. It's like, no wonder you can't find anything. AT: 01:03:12 Um, one thing I wanted to ask you about, because like you mentioned, it's very unusual for families to have a lot of the documents that were in that box that your family had. Um, so whether it's the FBI notes or, um, you know, the written letters and things like that, um, you, you mentioned in your piece, like your father didn't see a piece of paper he didn't like, and I was just wondering if you can tell me more about what it was about. Was it mostly your father who was keeping documents? KY: 01:03:49 My mom threw out everything. She was one of those, "Ehhh, you know, get rid of it, get rid of it." My dad was the opposite. He was a pack rat. He was a bit of a hoarder. So he had paper everywhere, you know, newspapers stacked up to here. Books and books and books everywhere. And he also, I mean, when we had to go through his apartment after he died, I mean, Oh my God, you would not believe how much crap, the- we had to have a bonfire and burn stuff, you know, 25 year old bills, everything. But he had also, of course, put all this stuff somewhere and there was a big trunk that nobody ever went to. And I think that might've been where my, I mean I didn't find the trunk, but you know my either my brother or sisters or my friend, best friend Rosie who had been, was helping and she was taking care of dad at the time. Somebody found this box of documents. So I'd never seen it until then. AT: 01:04:50 What was it about your dad? Did he ever give reason or explanation for holding on to things? KY: 01:04:57 No, but I have heard, and I think it's probably true that a lot of older people tend to hoard, but especially a lot of that generation of Japanese have a hoarding problem and it's because they had to get rid of everything they owned. You know, they could only take with them what they could carry and on some level I think that kind of traumatized them. So they kept everything and like my dad they, he wouldn't move. I mean he stayed in that same apartment in Hyde Park his whole life. We tried to get him to move. His family said, come up here, you know, they're on the North side. Come up here near us wouldn't move, wouldn't move. He just got, they get very, very set in their ways so he wouldn't change. He took a job way back when we were kids and he stayed at that same company his whole life. He was still working in his seventies he would, he'd still be there except the company went out of business. AT: 01:06:01 What company was that? KY: 01:06:01 It was the national paint and lacquer company. He was paid almost nothing. People kept telling him, you can do better leave, leave, you know, come and he just wouldn't do it. I think he was just terrified. I think, you know, a lot of Japanese had had that fear that nobody was going to hire them. And I think a lot of them were told that too. You know, you're lucky you have a job at all. And being, I mean it must be terrifying, I think for anybody to be responsible, you know, for a wife and four kids. And my mom wasn't working at the time, so I just think he wasn't taking any chances. So he tended to just stay with what he had and not change it. And kept himself very much. So even, you know, his own family, people, he knew. Nobody. nobody really knew him very well. His best friends, I don't, I'm not sure, but I don't think even as best friends knew his inner most thoughts. I think he just wasn't in touch with them. He chose not to be or, or he wasn't able to. That's why it was really hard to have a conversation with him. He didn't converse. You could ask them a direct question and he would answer it. He went to Japan like back in the 80s by himself and I remember he came back to Japan and I said, Aw, so how was it? How is Japan? And he said, fine. Would you like to elaborate on that? I mean, you have to like ask him questions and he would answer, but very succinctly, you know, he never just talked. AT: 01:07:35 How did your mom compare? KY: 01:07:37 Oh, she was totally the opposite. I have no idea how they got together. They were complete opposites. She, I'm sorry she's not alive. She would have been great for this interview. She was a talker, she was opinionated and she was very outgoing, so she would've done a great interview. AT: 01:07:57 And, um. I know you said that growing up she didn't really talk about it, but it sounds like in the 80s and around redress, you know, you said that she had become more outspoken about it. KY: 01:08:08 Yeah. But not to the family. She was outspoken to everybody else she knew, but I never talked to her about it. She'd send us these, you know, kind of like we'd get things in the mail. "Oh I saw this" and who, she typed a little comments at the top just a little bit. I never had a conversation with her about it. Now maybe she would have been willing, but it takes two sides to be willing. It's like they have to be ready to talk and you have to be ready to accept. And it just didn't work out ever. So I don't know that, I mean I'll, I'll have to ask my brother and sisters if any of them ever had talks with mom and maybe they had some, but I don't think any of us really knew. But she was perfectly happy to tell everybody else. AT: 01:08:58 So when she was sending those to you, um, at the time. Did you not feel ready to have that conversation? KY: 01:09:07 No. So I don't, like I said, I'm not sure. I'll have to ask my brothers and sisters if any of them did. I think she talked a little bit more like with my brother who was, you know, much more outgoing person than this and that they were, they were very close and my brother has in fact been to Medford to, you know, and visited the Oregon Historical Society there. And looked at the family records and things like that. So I'm sure he would've been a good person to talk to. But I don't know if he did either because he was living at the time, he wasn't in Chicago. The norm. I've always, I'm hearing from all these Saturday, uh, share your stories thing is that generally people assume that, well not assume necessarily, but the most comfortable thing is for the grandchild to interview the grandparents. Well, my parents were so much older that uh, when my mom died, for example, my nieces, they were little kids. I mean the oldest one was only five. So it was, you know, it just didn't work out that way. Their parents were old, my parents were old, or there was just too, too many years between the generations. So it didn't happen. So Auntie Nanny has been the stand-in, you know, my mom's sister who's 98 and still alive. My mom would be a hundred if she were still alive and Auntie Nanny's great, but she's beginning to get forgetful. As you saw, you met her here at the exhibit. And her take on life is just very, very, very radically different from my moms. So I'm sure my mom would've said very different things than what I hear from Auntie Nanny. AT: 01:10:52 Do you think that's an age thing or? KY: 01:10:56 From- Yep. From what I heard, they were always like that from the time they were kids. Auntie has always just been super, super positive. Some people are just like that. She just always looks at life and says, I'd rather look at the good things. So that's just true. That was her nature before any of this happened. This isn't, you know, like a defense mechanism that she, uh, she learned to have. AT: 01:11:26 Um, and uh. So I'd love to talk a little bit about your experiences in Chicago. Um, but one thing I'm curious about is, um, when did you, do you remember when you first heard of camp or knew about it? KY: 01:11:47 I think we always knew about it. I mean, when we were really young, we knew about it partly because, you know, I mean, mom said you kids need to know about it, even though she didn't go into details. So we knew about it. And then back in the old days, I mean, I don't know if they still do it, but in high school in Chicago, they used to talk about the internment that was taught. I don't know if it still is or not. AT: 01:12:16 Um, can you tell me a little more about that? Was it an elaborate unit or was it kind of? KY: 01:12:20 No, no, it's just kind of the whole, you know, I mean, when they in you're in history class or whatever U S history and they get to the part where they're talking about World War II and this and that. And they mentioned, you know, the fact that while at least in the Chicago history books, I mean they probably don't mention it at all, you know, in other States. But we got to that part and you know, I of course it didn't say anything, but the girl in front of me who was a friend of mine turned around and looked to me and she whispered, "Did that happened to your family too?" I said [knods] and she went [nods], you know, and went back, cause class was going. And that was the end of it. AT: 01:13:02 But, so that was a, another Japanese American friend? KY: 01:13:06 No, she was black! She was African American. So, yeah, but she didn't, but a lot of, you keep finding more and more people who don't know about it. I had Alphawood here when they're having tours, like I'll sometimes kind of like listened to people's comments. I pretend like I don't know anything about what's going on and I'll sort of just listen in and, and I keep hearing that. I didn't know about this, oh I didn't know about that. And I'm just wondering, I guess that they don't teach that stuff anymore. AT: 01:13:38 And um, so you went to high school in Hyde Park? KY: 01:13:44 I went to Hyde Park high for the first two years and then I transferred up to Senn. So I graduated from Senn High school, which is up on the North side near Bryn, the Bryn Mawr L stop. AT: 01:13:55 And so were you commuting from Hyde Park? Or, KY: 01:13:57 Ah, yes. Yes. That was an hour and a half each way. That was not easy. AT: 01:14:03 Um, and what, and what was the reason for the transfer? KY: 01:14:09 Hyde Park? Hyde Park High School is not actually in Hyde Park, it's in Englewood. It was very, very dangerous. Uh, at the time that I was going there, Kenwood High School had not been built yet. So my two younger sisters went to Kenwood, but my brother and I went to Hyde Park High and it was the height of the gang wars between the Blackstone Rangers and the Disciples. So it was not a safe place to be. The only good thing there about being Japanese was there was so few of us, nobody ever bothered with us. We never got picked on. AT: 01:14:49 Um, that was something else I wanted to ask. Um, when you were growing up in Hyde Park, um, did you have Japanese American friends or was there a community there? KY: 01:15:00 Oh yeah, there was a community there. Uh, we had some Japanese friends for the simple reason that our next door neighbors were Japanese. So just there were like three houses in a row and we had, uh, two families like right next to us. And so, and you know, when you have kids the same age and everybody's going to Ray School. So we used to play with the kids every day. And then we had, you know, like just one block over the Matayoshi family. Of course, Rocky Matayoshi being one of the most famous and highly decorated 442nd veterans. Uh, I mean there's footage on YouTube and whatever, of president Obama will putting the medal around his neck and Rocky's and, uh, Elsie and the Matayoshi kids were just a block away and we grew up with their kids too. So there was always, you know, enough people, it wasn't a Japanese community, but if you grew up in Hyde Park, there are enough Japanese that you know who everybody is, even if you're not playing with them, you know, I mean, you just, you know who they are and all the moms knew each other and, and the moms would sort of do little coffee klatches here and there. AT: 01:16:11 And you mentioned that, um, you were going to a Unitarian Church. KY: 01:16:18 Yeah. AT: 01:16:18 And so no Japanese school or anything like that? KY: 01:16:21 No. AT: 01:16:21 No girl scouts. Um, did you do any other activities outside of school growing up? KY: 01:16:27 Well, with the Unitarian Church that we had the, it was a Chicago Children's Choir at the time. It's now, no, actually it's a Chicago children's choir now, but, but when I was, there used to be the first Unitarian Church choir, so we had choir practice a couple times a week. And then, uh, for the high school level they had something called LRY, It was like Liberal Religious Youth. And that was like the high school group from the church. And uh, the Unitarian church was very progressive. They were among the first churches in Chicago to have an integrated congregation. And so not only did they have people from different races there, they uh, I remember when I was growing up there and going to church in the 50s, I think half the congregation were Jewish. They were, you know, liberal Jewish because their attitude was, well, they didn't, Unitarians didn't ask you to believe anything, you couldn't get around. It was very, it was, people would say things like, it's the closest thing you can get to atheism. So it was the liberal community. Hyde Park was liberal, the church was liberal. So we did the church stuff. Uh, what else did we do? I, uh, girl, I did campfire girls. I think my brother might've done, uh, Boy Scouts, but this was the Hyde Park groups. And so it was mostly kids that we went to Ray School with. So there were no all Japanese things that we did. AT: 01:17:55 And what were the at the time, the general demographics of Hyde Park at that, in the fifties and sixties? KY: 01:18:02 I don't know. I would have to look that up. Uh, certainly I would say it was mostly white, especially like in the area immediately around the University of Chicago because so many professors lived there with their kids. There was some African Americans, there were not many Hispanics back then at the time. And most of the Asians living in Hyde Park were Japanese Americans. They weren't Chinese, some were Chinese, but it was not, not as many as now. You'd go to Hyde Park. Now it has a much higher concentration of Chinese than Japanese. AT: 01:18:39 And do you remember any, um, were there any Japanese American, uh, businesses or restaurants or grocery stores or anything? KY: 01:18:49 Franklin Food Market on, I think 55th Street was the only Japanese grocery store. But they were really expensive. We thought. Cause Japanese food's expensive, it all, has to be imported. And of course things like sashimi are really expensive and we didn't grow up eating Japanese food. That's something I didn't mention either. My mom said Japanese food takes too long to prepare. I'm not messing around with this. So we ate meatloaf and spaghetti just like everybody else. She never cooked Japanese food. And so the only time we got to really eat it was at the grandparents because I think they cooked it every day. Probably three meals a day. But mom didn't do it once in awhile, you know, some teriyaki or something real simple. But that was it. So Franklin Food store. Do I remember any other Japanese food? Japanese places in Hyde Park? I don't think so. That's the only one that springs to mind. AT: 01:19:49 Or maybe, um, Edgewater or, I don't know if Senn is Edgewater technically. KY: 01:19:55 Oh, well when you get up to the North Side, there used to be like Star Market on Clark Street, you know, uh, near, oh what was, oh, probably not too far from where my grandparents lived. But that was, that's Lakeview, that wasn't Andersonville sorry. It was Lakeview and that was way too far for us. We didn't have a car. So we couldn't have gotten up there, but Star Market, Star Market was there until what, nineties or something. They're, they're pretty long. And of course, you know, like when my, uh, when everybody first came out to Chicago around Clark and Division area, there were Japanese grocery stores and one of the grocery stores was Sun Grocery, which was owned by the Yahiro family. And that's where Auntie Nanny met her husband, Kenneth Yahiro who I think was, I think at the time, might've been helping his parents out in the store. It was a Japanese grocery store. So I think that's where they met. Of course Uncle Kenneth and went on to IIT and all that other stuff, you know, became a partner who, you know, like they created their own electronics company, which is still operating, but that, I think he was helping out in the grocery store and she met him. AT: 01:21:12 Do you know when they closed that store? That family KY: 01:21:14 Oh no, probably when you know when grandma and grandpa, Yahiro died is my guess. It's been gone a long time. AT: 01:21:22 And so it was the. KY: 01:21:23 Not store, sorry sun, Sun Grocery was the name of it. AT: 01:21:29 And it was the Saitos that first came to Clark and Division. Is that right? KY: 01:21:33 My mom was there. She was the first one because that's where she was living when she was going to the Art Institute. She's got, I've seen documents, letters and whatnot with her addresses 1039 S Lasalle. So that's where she was first living. And then she told Auntie Nanny, her sister to come out to Chicago because she said it's better out here than the West coast. C'mon out here. So Auntie Nanny decided to come out too. And she said, my mom like sewed her a special dress, so she has something to wear on her trip to Chicago. So they were living there too. I think it was like an apartment building or something like that. I mean it wasn't, they weren't all living in her apartment. There were other Japanese people there. And then the grandparents came out. And so that was originally where they all were, was 1039 S Lasalle Street to my knowledge. AT: 01:22:30 Do you have any other information about, um, your parents' experiences of first, like initially coming to Chicago? Did they ever talk about that with you? KY: 01:22:43 No, not really. I'm sure it must've been a shock. I know any number of levels. Uh, my mom's family, of course, coming from Medford, Oregon, you know, population less than 20,000 even now it's still a pretty small city, although, you know, it's grown quite a bit since then. But coming from that to Chicago was, you know, just completely something they'd never experienced. And my dad's side was from Sacramento, which is of course a big city, but they come from the Japan town part of Sacramento and they wound up on the South Side of Chicago, which was completely different from everything that they had, you know, like known before. So I'm sure people had culture shock coming to Chicago. AT: 01:23:32 And I think you mentioned your mom eventually picked up work. After being in Chicago, is that right? KY: 01:23:37 Oh she was? Yeah. I mean, what was she doing? I don't remember. It's like her earliest jobs, but she wound up after she got married and had kids, you know, and we'd grown up and some point or another, she decided to go work at the Unitarian church. So she was at the Unitarian church. Wo- working in the office for like a decade or something. She was there until, you know, until her, the end of her life. So she really liked it there. So. AT: 01:24:08 And um, KY: 01:24:11 I know like Auntie Nanny was an executive secretary for awhile before she got married, but I'm not sure about the details of that. I just remember she was an executive secretary. She'd taken like secretarial classes or something. And she said she didn't want to be a take care of anybody's kids or do anything like that. So, but then when she got married and moved to Park Ridge, that was the end of her short career. I know grandpa and grandma worked briefly too when they came to Chicago. Grandpa Saito was originally doing some kind of assembly line work, but at that point, you know he's, he's pretty old. He was in his sixties and he'd always been working for himself. And so after I think not very long, he quit. He said, I'm too old to start over again. And Grandma Saito was working with a bunch of other Japanese ladies at a millinery store. They were, you know, back in the old days when proper ladies all wore hats. So they were putting together all the little frou frou that you put on fancy hats, the kind that are sold on Michigan Avenue that people were back then. So she liked that because you know, it was her and a bunch of them, the, you know, issei ladies all all doing that job. AT: 01:25:35 Do you know where they did that? KY: 01:25:36 No, I don't. Unfortunately, I was just, I remember being told that, well, I'm sure too, they were not working in the store. You know, there was some probably some little room off somewhere where they all did it. But I was told that the hats were pretty fancy hats that were sold at better stores in Chicago. So that's all I know about it. I can try to ask Auntie Nanny, I think I've asked her before, but she doesn't really remember any other than the fact that it was, it was millinery work. AT: 01:26:07 Hmm. And um, and then for both, um, the Saitos and the Yasutakes. Um, do you know about, um, where the, the Yasutakes were they going to, um, Buddhist church? KY: 01:26:25 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. AT: 01:26:29 And where were they affiliated? KY: 01:26:29 I think originally a Buddhist temple up on Leland and then later, uh, Midwest Buddhist temple here. Yeah. Now they, they remained devout Buddhists their whole lives. So I think we were the only Unitarians in the bunch and I'm sure had, we moved with my dad's side of the family, which was what they wanted. Ya know, they wanted us to, they wanted to buy a bigger house and all of us live together. I would have had a totally different upbringing than I did living in Hyde Park, but my mom did not want to do that. So AT: 01:27:09 Can you explain a little bit more what, um, in what ways would it be so different if you had gone with the Yasutakes on the North side. KY: 01:27:17 They were very traditional. That drove my mom nuts. She was way too independent, too outspoken, too Americanized. She was not your typical nisei wife. Uh, I frankly don't think, uh, grandma and grandpa approved of her for very much, but you know, that's it. AT: 01:27:42 Um, I also wanted to be sure to ask about, um, so grandma's Saito. She very passionately wanted to, um, KY: 01:27:57 Be an American citizen. Yeah. AT: 01:27:59 I wanted to ask you a little bit more about that. Was that, um, was that a desire that you kind of always knew about or the family? KY: 01:28:11 Yeah, just because Auntie Nanny would always talk about it, you know, so actually I think I knew about the citizenship from my mom too, but since I see Auntie Nanny still, she always, she brings that up. It's sort of one of the recurring things that she talks about. You know, whenever I ask questions about Grandma, she'll, she'll always kind of go back to that and say, Grandma always said, you know, be proud to be Americans. This is the best country in the world. So she, she's still, you know, it made a big impression on her and so she always brings it up. So, it's one, it's one of Auntie Nannies, like, themes. AT: 01:28:53 Um, how do you respond to that? Does that, KY: 01:28:57 It surprises me a little. I mean, just because I'm, I'm not sure if, if I had been through everything they'd been through that I would feel that way. But you know, what can I say? I mean, I think it's, maybe she was optimistic the same way Auntie Nanny's optimistic. I don't know. I mean, certainly she wasn't bitter. AT: 01:29:26 Um, let's see. Were there any other activities you could think of that either, um, side your grandparents were involved in besides church or anything? KY: 01:29:44 I don't know. At that point they were pretty old. You know, they were in their seventies and living, you know like Grandma Yastake and Grandpa Yasutake you're living with the whole Yasutake clan. So I'm not sure they went out a lot or anything like that. You know what I mean? Basically your life's your family. So I don't, you know, and they're involved, I'm sure with some stuff with the Buddhist temple and all, but they're pretty old at that point and I think they, I get the feeling that they kind of stayed at home a lot. There was no Japanese community per e up in the Andersonville area where they lived. I mean, I'm sure there was the occasional, you know, Japanese family here and there, but it wasn't like Japantown in Sacramento where they could go out and walk into any store and talk to people because they didn't speak English. So that really meant that every time they had to deal with the outer world, they had to go through with one of their kids as a translator. So I think that limited things. Plus grandma being a traditional issei a housewife, uh, thought she had to make three meals a day for everybody. And uh, as my mom said it was like a restaurant, she would ask, you know this son, "what do you want to eat?" I mean, "what do you," and she'd cook! Eh she was a great cook but she was in the kitchen the whole time. So I don't know when she had enough time to go do anything else except cook. I'm hoping she liked cooking cause that's what I remember her doing all the time. AT: 01:31:15 And you had cousins who lived in that. KY: 01:31:17 Yup. AT: 01:31:18 In that building? KY: 01:31:18 Yup. All of them. It's like one cousin up on the top floor. That's Corky. Three on the middle floor. So we've got Brucey, Carol, Corey, bottom floor, Sandy and Laurie and then the grandparents. So I'm sure they, my cousins, even if they don't speak Japanese per se, they understand it on some level because how can you not, the grandparents only spoke Japanese. So if you wanted to come, you know, like communicate with them at all. You had to know. And just kinda hearing that, you know, around you and they had that big building and they left all their backdoors open. And so people, you know, they just come up and down on the back steps and you know, they'd be sitting there and all of a sudden an uncle shows up or an aunt shows up and they were there, you know, it was kind of a great big house and they all pretty much lived together. So they were much, much more traditionally Japanese that way. They are exposed to that. And, and I know they were, you know, they were Buddhists so some of them practicing Buddhists and they had shrines in their home, which of course we did not, stuff like that. So I mean I, I don't see my mom being able to get by in a situation like that, especially when she was always saying things like, "Grandma thinks she's running a rest stop. I'm not doing that." So she didn't, didn't get along with that. And Grandpa Yasutake from what I remember, every time I saw him, he was sitting in front of a TV watching sports games. Even if he didn't speak English, he could watch baseball or whatever and you know, follow the games. And so when we'd go there, of course, I mean this happens in every family, everywhere on holidays, all the men are sitting around watching sports on TV and the women are all sitting in the kitchen having coffee and chatting. And that's, that happened there too. The only thing I remember that was different was that the men would play go instead of poker, you know, I mean, sorry not go, hana! They'd play hana, not so they'd be sitting there including my dad. All playing hana afterwards. But that was, you know, that was the only thing kind of, and the food that made a different from any other holiday in America anywhere. AT: 01:33:37 Um, I also wanted to ask you about, um, the Fukuoka picnic. Um, how many people would go to that and who was organizing it? If you can remember KY: 01:33:51 It was called Fukuoka, it was like, uh, Fukuoka Kenjikai is like an organization. So I don't know who the old guys were. Actually, uh, Karen [Kana-o?], You might ask her, she might know, but there are, there was the whole organization there, you know, and every year they had this big picnic, and it was big. A lot of people that I never saw any other time except at that picnic would come up. Everybody came to that. It was really wonderful, I think especially wonderful for the isseis because at that point there wasn't a, you know, tight Japanese community per se. Everybody kind of, you know, spread out amongst Chicago. And so the isseis only saw their own families. So this was great. You know, they get to visit with their old friends again and that kind of stuff. So it was, it was really a lot of fun. I mean I remember it being a lot of fun and they had, they had games and the games were fun too. Games for the, an uh races for the kids where, you know, involved a lot of running, you know, the usual kind of run up here and turn around and come back. And I mean they were easy. You'd win the prizes, but they had, by age, races for the kids, races for the niseis. And then you'd get everybody's moms and aunties running around doing stuff. And then the funniest one was the ones where they would include the isseis. They were very smart about how they did that. So at the end of the line, they'd have like a bowl with little like uncooked beans, raw beans, they're really like shiny and slippery, and those real pointy chopsticks, the ones that you can't pick anything up with? And you had to get run down to the end of the line and then transfer like let's say 10 beans into a different bowl and then run back. So of course, you know the nisei women would go charging down there and then you'd see them doing that and the issei women were kind of, you know, like trudging, they're really cute, you know, they're old, they're kind of trudging down there, but then they get to the end of the line, go [motions quickly] in two seconds. They'd like cleaned out the bowl and then trudge back. So it wound up being kind of equal. But anyway, it was a lot of fun. I remember that. And it was, they were very Japanese things that way, you know? I mean, who else is gonna have a race with chopsticks and, and beans. AT: 01:36:14 And did you, throughout your life, did you continue attending those picnics or the new year celebration? KY: 01:36:21 The new year celebrations? Uh, yeah, until, you know, we well, moved out, when I moved down the house, we stopped doing that. And I don't know when they stopped the Fukuoka Kenjikai stuff. So I don't know. Basically once we graduated high school, I mean, I kinda went my own way, so I'm not sure how long these things continue. I just know I didn't continue with them. I imagine, I'm sure grandma was having those new years spreads than you know, until she died because she lived to like 85 as long as she could cook, you know, it's like, I'm sure at some point her health didn't really allow it anymore. But she had a lot of help from all of the aunties and uncles. Everybody got inducted into helping out, including the men. So usually like the men would be out doing the grilling. And then even I remember like my uncle Yutaka complaining that she had assigned him to like grate gobo which turns your hands black. So she had everybody working. AT: 01:37:23 And so we can be wrapping up. But before we do, I want to just ask you, um, so you've, um, you've done a lot of looking into your, your family's story and, and their past. Um, and I know I've, I've seen you in the gallery number of times. So one thing that I just want to ask you about is, um, why do you, why is this story so important and, um, what are some of the lessons that need to be learned from it? KY: 01:38:18 Well, I think everybody knows their family is important. It's just only when it gets down to the last members of the family still being alive, that you realize you've probably waited too long and you better do it now while you still can. Even though it's in many ways already too late. Because the people who know, you know, the best what actually happened are gone. But at least there are a couple people left who I can sort of bounce things off of and say, does that sound familiar? So I just, I probably would not have done this had I not met Mike Takada, you know, at the Tule Lake movie and gotten this, uh sorry, gotten this stuff all ready for the exhibition. I probably wouldn't have done it. I needed some, something to prod me. So I will actually probably finish it out a little bit more because having now seen, uh, what other people did, you know, for example, and [Shi?] Majima talking about how she did her whole family history and uh, what's his name from Densho organization, talking about putting all this stuff together online. I thought, well yeah, maybe I should do that too. Cause if I don't do it, who will? So I'll, I'll try to finish out a little bit more of it. I mean a lot of these, these people are gone now. And I figure if I don't, and that's part of why I put so many names in, as I was talking like Grandpa [Lewin?] Fuji, nobody else will.They have no kids. So it's sort of like, okay, you know, they had their place in our family history. Let's, let's put them in too. AT: 01:40:21 And do you have any, um, any hopes for just future generations more generally? Or if you could leave some kind of legacy or, um, or message behind, um, what's something that you want to leave? KY: 01:40:42 Well, only in the message, don't wait too long! But everybody, I've seen at the Saturday story, you know, share your stories. Who said that? I can only reiterate that message. So many of us waited too long. So, but even if you have waited too long, it's like get what you have, get what you have out there. And yeah, we can say we should have asked earlier, and it's true. We should have asked earlier, but it is what it is. And rather than just saying, Oh well it's, you know, like, well let's, let's do our piece to do what we can. So I don't really know. I mean, I've got two nieces there, that's all. It's like my sisters didn't have kids, I didn't have kids. My brother has two daughters, so I don't know if they're interested or not. I really don't know. I know my brother's interested, so maybe when they get older they will get interested. Sometimes that happens. You have to get to a certain age where you defined you're interested. So possibly that will happen with them and even if not, it's there for anybody else who is interested, but sometimes it takes until you get very old to get interested in . AT: 01:42:02 Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you'd like to add or that, um, I might have missed. KY: 01:42:09 No, I think I've said already quite a bit, so... AT: 01:42:12 Thank you so much for coming in. KY: 01:42:16 Well thank you. Thank you for having me. And like I said, thanks to Alphawood and JASC too. So thanks so much Anna. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YasutakeKris20171103.xml YasutakeKris20171103.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Yasutake, Kris (11/3/2017)
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
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The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Oral History
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Takada, Anna
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Yamashiro, Constance
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/10/2018 Yamashiro, Constance (8/10/2018) 1:28:04 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded, transcribed, and made accessible online with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago and the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamashiro, Constance Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/306094381/31852db1d8 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/306094381?h=31852db1d8" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:06 This is an interview with Connie Yamashiro as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American historical society oral history project. The interview is being conducted on August 10th, 2018 at 10:13 AM at the Japanese American Service Committee in Chicago. Connie Yamashiro is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you please just state your full name? CY: 00:00:39 My full name is Constance Chiyoko Yamashiro. AT: 00:00:43 Okay. And then can you tell me a little bit about where and when you were born? CY: 00:00:48 I was born in Los Angeles, 1938. AT: 00:00:56 When is your birthday? CY: 00:00:57 May Six. AT: 00:01:00 Okay. And, can you tell me a little bit about your parents, maybe, what their names were, where they were from. CY: 00:01:11 Okay. My parents actually were Nisei I' ; m Sansei I' ; m an older Sansei. My father, well, I don' ; t know where actually he came from, but he didn' ; t know being Japanese. He never talked about, his background as such, my mother, was I think from Hiroshima ken. But I' ; m not too sure. And they lived in California sort of scraping by, you know. Yeah. They had a, they only had one child and that was me. AT: 00:01:52 Okay. And, do you know anything about how, their parents came to the U.S. or? CY: 00:02:05 Wow, you know, they didn' ; t relate a lot about that. I don' ; t think. Okay, well they have stories. My mother' ; s parents, her father, had caught, had come first of course, and had written a letter back to Japan and requesting his girlfriend to come and join him in the United States. However, the family didn' ; t allow that girlfriend or his love to come and they sent instead her sister, from what I understand, according to the, you know, family law was that the sister was more homely. So they figured that she would have a harder time finding a husband and they kept the pretty one back in Japan thinking that they would have no problem getting her married. So the more homely sister who was my grandmother came, instead. And, I remember, she, she had a hard time, a life in America was not what she, you know, as, you know, I imagine that it would be, my father' ; s background was such that, his mother was, a little bit more bitter about everything in life. And, she complained a lot about being in America, but at the same time, I think her family wanted her out of the, out of the country. So there was all kinds of turmoil going on, you know. AT: 00:03:54 Do you have any sense of idea about what they were doing for a living? CY: 00:03:59 Oh yeah. My grandfather was a, of a, what they call a chalk farmer. When you first came and he had a place in Fresno, California and worked over there. My, my grandmother who was a widow, by the way, on my father' ; s side, lived with us because my father was the oldest child and he took care of his mother, you know, the type of thing. And do you want to know what he did for a living? He, he took the jobs wherever he could at a fishing on the fishing boats. He even worked as an extra on the MGM lots, you know, wherever he could. He tried to get a job. AT: 00:05:00 And so you were being born in 1938 you were very young when the war broke out. Do you have any memories of LA or as a child before the evacuation? CY: 00:05:17 Actually, before the evacuation, I have no memories, I don' ; t remember anything, but I do remember, going out to the camp and I remember the trip out there and I sometimes get confused whether it was a bus or train. I wasn' ; t too sure because we went to Manzanar from LA, you know. AT: 00:05:42 And, I' ; m sorry, were your parents, were they both from LA then or did they? CY: 00:05:54 Right, right, right AT: 00:05:55 Okay. So they were born in LA? CY: 00:05:58 They were .. well, my father was born in a place called I believe Stockton and my mother was born in LA, but oh, excuse me, in Pasadena. AT: 00:06:07 Okay. CY: 00:06:08 Same thing. AT: 00:06:10 Okay. And then, so you mentioned that you do, some of your first memories are actually of evacuation? CY: 00:06:23 Well, I remember the first getting into camp, I remember it was hot and dusty. It was very, very, a relief to get, I think it was a bus. I think we got off the bus, released to get off the bus. I remember I had to go, the washroom there was some kind of toilet set up that a lot of the Japanese women were upset about because it wasn' ; t completed. You know, the facilities were so bare and, there was no separation, of the individual stalls. And I do remember that because my, and everyone was in a horrible mood. My grandmother was just, I was with my grandmother. I don' ; t know why my mother and father weren' ; t with me in the same bus, but there was someplace else. And I remember my grandmother being very, very upset and angry and, we all crabby and she, and she was spanking me and you know, just because I was crying and try to figure out, you know, what was going on, that I remember. AT: 00:07:38 And so you mentioned that it wasn' ; t completed, so it sounds like you, you' ; re probably a part of that first or one of the earlier, earliest arrivals. CY: 00:07:49 Right. We didn' ; t go into the, we didn' ; t go to those horse stables and some people went into, I think the LA people in straight into Manzanar, you know, and they were putting up the barbed wire fences. I remember that very well. And a lot of constructions still going on. AT: 00:08:13 And do you have, so you actually remember like visually the, that it was under construction and they were still putting it together? CY: 00:08:22 I remember, is like scenes, you know, it' ; s like a certain pictures in your mind. And I do remember, the barbed wire. I remember the bathroom, which was such a big, you know, important, event for a little girl. And because by that time I was four and I was, well I guess trained. So I was very upset, you know, that you had to walk for half a mile to get to the bathroom and, and, it was very difficult. AT: 00:09:01 And as far as the actual like living situation and the barracks, were you, was it the same where you with your parents and your grandmother? Like at home? CY: 00:09:13 At the beginning of, it was, I remember they were there, but they went to work in what they call the sugar beet fields. And, excuse me. And I don' ; t remember seeing much of them anymore, but I was always with my grandmother. So that' ; s why as I grew up, of course I only spoke Japanese because my grandmother was being, Issei, and, and she took care of me, you know, and camp. Yeah. AT: 00:09:42 And, in that case, what was your first language? CY: 00:09:46 Japanese. AT: 00:09:47 It was Japanese? CY: 00:09:52 Um-hum, um-hum, AT: 00:09:55 To jump back a little bit, as far as family background, was your family religious at all? CY: 00:10:02 No, unfortunately they were not at all religious. My mother was, not religious at all. I don' ; t even know if she ever went into a church. Maybe she did to, visited once or something, but my father and mother were not religious. AT: 00:10:19 How about your grandmother? CY: 00:10:22 My grandmother was, always looking around for different religions and she focused, on the Christian religion because I remember she bought me a book on Bible Stories and, you know, and I became very Nambour knows all the different, stories in the, in the Old Testament. And yeah, she was, she was religious in her own way, but she wasn' ; t one to make a big deal out of it, you know. AT: 00:11:03 And do you have any other memories from camp from such a young age? Any, anything that sticks out to you when you think about? What men' ; s life was like? CY: 00:11:13 A lot of memories from camp. There was a riot in my camp, I remember that there was a big riot, there was a lot of anger about, was it the JCL? Or, yeah, I remember that. And so my father must' ; ve been around because I remember him always yelling about that. Mmm. I do remember all kinds of get togethers where there they played the, you know, the Glenn Miller music and I fell in love with all the big band sounds. There are also like events where we all went out and said, you know, we, we wanted to say something to the emperor of Japan, you know, there was this kind of of um. Yeah. Oh, oh, rising of, of I think it was among the Isseis and certain Jab and Niseis are what they call Keybase that, uh, would say that Japan is going to win. And we' ; d all have little flags that we flied around. And I remember being a little girl being happy. He had his little flag and you know, but, there were, those kinds of things that I remember. Of course the mass hall. And unusually I, I don' ; t know, in Manzanar, no, the adults ate in one section and the children ate in another, which I don' ; t think was a good idea, but, and I didn' ; t like the food. I remember that. AT: 00:12:55 Do you remember what was being served or what you didn' ; t like? CY: 00:12:59 I remember a lot of spam. I think there was a lot of spam. I hate spam now. Uh, I do remember putting shoyu and everything. And you know, it was, oh, I always remember corn on the cob cause I would save the corn and take all the kernels off and put it in my pocket and eat it like a piece of candy later, you know, cause of course there was no butter on the quarter or anything like that. Mmm. Mmm. AT: 00:13:32 Being such a young child, did you have to go to school? Or. CY: 00:13:36 No, at that time I was only four and I think they wanted me to go to some kind of a preschool ish type of thing. But I think I must have raised the faster or something and I never did end up going because I was always, you know, probably protesting or something. Yeah. I don' ; t remember. AT: 00:13:58 And do you know how long your family stayed in camp in Manzanar? CY: 00:14:02 Well, we stayed all the way through. My, when I say my family and my mother and father were in that, sugarbeet farm thing, but I was close to my aunt and my uncle and my aunt was terribly frightened of leaving the camp. She had heard the horror stories about, you know, people throwing rocks at the journeys and there was a lot of uprisings and we knew we couldn' ; t go back to California. That' ; s what I had understood that California did not want us back there. Thus, we, we were there until 44. It was, it seemed like a long time. I was there, until 44, some people left early. AT: 00:14:56 So. CY: 00:14:59 In 1944 where did your family go? Right here in Chicago. Well, was my mother, my grandmother and I, my mother and father had come out earlier because they were working, I think if you had a work permit, you are allowed to come out and, get a job. And they came out and we all sort of lived on the South Side. A lot of people among the Japanese people lived on the South Side of Chicago because they allowed us to rent apartments. So there was a lot of prejudice, but, they all, they were able to get apartments at that time. Okay. And we lived in a boarding house situation, you know, so my grandmother, I joined my parents and, it was, it was really that I remember very distinctly, you know. AT: 00:16:04 Rejoining your, your parents? CY: 00:16:08 Yeah. Huh. I asked who is that woman? They said that your mother, I said, whoa. I had no idea. I mean, you know, among children, just a couple of years absence, sometimes you, you know, you forget. And it was, I, I don' ; t know exactly how long it was, but I was very close to my grandmother at that time. AT: 00:16:32 And, just so we have it down, can you give me the names of your, your parents and your grandmother? CY: 00:16:38 My name and the names of my mother and father, you mean? Okay, my father' ; s name was Stewart. S. T. E. W. A. R. T. And my mother' ; s name was Dorothy. Okay. And my grandmother was, her name was Ekuto I think with E. K. U. T. O. AT: 00:17:05 Do you, do you CY: 00:17:05 She would be at Uchiyama now. There was, See My, when I gave you my name, of course Yamashiro that' ; s, my married when I was married, yeah, married name. AT: 00:17:14 But Uchiyama is? CY: 00:17:17 But Uchiyama is my maiden name. AT: 00:17:21 Hmm. Mmm. One thing I wanted to ask is about, I mean, you being very young and, and going into the camps, you know, that' ; s probably kind of what you knew. You weren' ; t questioning much but, did your, do you remember having any kinds of conversations with either your grandmother or your, your parents about the camp situation or? CY: 00:18:03 Well, I remember conversations. I remember my father being extremely upset, you know, because he was, at the height of his adult, or let' ; s say I was four years, who was in his late twenties. So I remember, I always remember a scene where he was crying and the, and the kit, in the barrack. And, he was very bitter about the whole war scene and very angry. So I always heard that every day when I was crying, I heard it and you know, from him in camp, and I would hear it later about how, you know, they felt very, very bitter about the whole situation. That was the kind of conversations I' ; ve heard a lot of. And, I was always told my father would say everyday, this is horrible to say too, but my father would say, never, ever trust the white person. They' ; ll act friendly, but they' ; ll always, always hate you. And they like, and I said, oh, okay, well, you know, something I learned from him because he felt so betrayed. You know, he felt his whole life had changed and altered and he wouldn' ; t go back to California for a long time until he was a much older man. You know, my child or we. AT: 00:19:38 You mean even to visit or? CY: 00:19:40 He wouldn' ; t have anything to, he wouldn' ; t have anything to do with Japan. He, he would, he had no desire to visit Japan. He had no desire to, in, in my case, it probably doesn' ; t bode well for this video. There was hardly any cultural things going on at home. He said, one of the first things is you do not talk, you only speak English. You should not speak Japanese. I mean, as I got assimilated into Chicago, I went to a private school, so I was taught English right quickly because you know, children just, you just learn it. And so, he made it a point that. Yeah. You know, a, we, we Americanize, he used to always say we' ; re not assimilated. That' ; s why we got thrown into camp. He would, you know, lecture me about people all sort of clustered together in LA and lived like, again, ghetto style. And he says that was a mistake that we made. I don' ; t know that' ; s a mistake we made. But that, you know, as if putting all the blame on, on the Japanese people, rather than the government that put us into camp, he felt that we asked for this, this was what, something that because of our behavior, because of how he looked, because of how he acted, this is what happens. AT: 00:21:15 Do you think that, his, like generation had anything to do with that? Like what do you think he would think differently if he were, say Issei or Sansei? Or I' ; m just, I' ; m. CY: 00:21:34 No, I know I, I' ; m a little unclear about how do you mean? AT: 00:21:40 I guess, do you think that he would still think that way if he were of a different generation as far as like the Japanese American community? So if you were Issei, I guess. CY: 00:21:57 Well, I don' ; t know. I have no idea ... speculating how he would feel that he was over a different track. If I was a Issei, as such at his age at that time, I would experience the whole wartime thing very differently. I think one of the interesting things about this internment camp and about our adjustment in Chicago, everything, had all dependent upon your age group. A lot of it was, it was like a, when I talked to all my girlfriends, we all play hana [inaudible], you know, the Japanese, oh, they loved it in camp and then sort of say [inaudible]. And it was the most fun I' ; ve ever had. And these girls are maybe a little older than myself. The teenage dances, the baseball games they played all the freedom from everything. And uh, in a way you can understand that it was like a big summer camp. I mean, and I think it was very hard for the Isseis. They were terrified. They had no idea if they' ; re ever going to go back to their homes in California, which many didn' ; t. And I think, for the Nisseis my father' ; s age group and you' ; re talking about which generation, I think it was devastating all their plans for like a college or a future jobs or you know, that all got scorched. And I feel that, it depended as you say, upon the generation you were in. And, my generation of course being so young, I sorta had, it was all enjoyable in a census making. AT: 00:23:52 You had your grandmother kind of taking care of you. And. CY: 00:23:56 I had my grandmother taking care of me and I had a, there was a strong community once you came to Chicago, you know, there was, which I was very, very quick and taking advantage of all the different, available resources we had, a while I' ; m not a religious person. I did go to church because going to the church, the community center, I got to make a lot of good friends and, you know, enjoy all the activities, campfire girls, et cetera, et cetera. And one thing about the South Side of Chicago became my little Japanese village. You know, you walked down the street or 43rd where I lived on 43rd and Drexel, you know, there' ; s a Japanese grocery store, a Japanese coffee shop, you know, Japanese Mochi store and you know, you just go and that whole area. And then I would go and visit all my girlfriends and, you know, who lived on various different blocks. And it was quite an interesting time. And they know that there was a community that got developed clubs. There were all of these basketball teams, baseball teams such, you know, as that, you know. AT: 00:25:28 So getting into this, this experience of coming to Chicago, do you have memories of actually traveling to Chicago? CY: 00:25:38 Yes, yes, yes, yes. AT: 00:25:39 And so did you take a train or? CY: 00:25:41 Yeah, we did take a train. I remember coming with my grandmother and my uncle and we were on this train and, I do remember we had oranges in a bag and we ate those. And I just was so fascinated by the city. I was so fascinated. I always remember that, I don' ; t know when I took the L ride or the, you know, but I thought, oh my gosh, you know, I was like, we' ; re on top of the world. And it was just fantastic because in camp you always saw him, you know, in close. You always, every day I would walk along the fence and the soldiers, occasion would give me a piece of chocolate. So I love to be able to get a piece of chocolate because they were very, you know, worrying. I don' ; t know what they were worried about. I think that, you know, we' ; re the song might jump a fence or something, but, um, you' ; re always feeling like you' ; re in closed. Whereas when you come to a place where suddenly there was no fences, it' ; s a very big experience. It' ; s a, even for, at that time I was seven or eight. It' ; s a very interesting experience, you know, freedom [delighted quiet laughing]. AT: 00:27:01 As far as the, the city itself, do you remember some of your first impressions? CY: 00:27:09 I was very, well, we went to the South Side of Chicago and, I remember, of course I was overwhelmed by everything and, but one of the problems was I was on 43rd street and the, there was a problem with the stock yards. You know, in the old days, Chicago had stock yards. And I remember once a while I get the whiff of the smell and the stock yards and we' ; d say, oh my gosh, what' ; s that? I always remember that. But we also had the lake and we would, all the kids would get together and we' ; d all walk together and go and jump off the rocks. Nowadays, this would be considered very dangerous, but we all take our towels and then go jump off the rocks off 43rd and on Lake Michigan. And this is the days before the of the show. I was even built, you know, it was a long time ago and, we really had a good time. I mean. AT: 00:28:10 Do you remember your address? The exact address? CY: 00:28:13 Well I remember many, many places we lived in, but the last address was at nine 35 east 43rd street. It was above a tamper and yeah. AT: 00:28:25 You said that was the last? CY: 00:28:27 South Side place. Yeah. Then we moved out of the South Side and we went to the West Side of Chicago. AT: 00:28:36 Just to have a sense, a better sense of where your family stayed in Chicago. Can you walk me through maybe like. CY: 00:28:50 Like where we lived? AT: 00:28:51 Yeah, kind of chronologically if possible. CY: 00:28:52 It was very hard to explain this because I came, when I came to Chicago, of course we' ; re in a boarding house on Drexel Boulevard. Then we went to this sort of like tenement building. I always remember this apartment because it was on the top floor of a big apartment building and it had one bathroom that service the whole floor type of thing. And we went there on Drexel, then we moved a few blocks and we moved down to a 43rd street and I said 935 east 43rd. But I remember right after that we moved again for a short period to, 43rd in Berkeley. Yeah. Which was a few blocks more east. So we did jump around a lot, you know, it was a. AT: 00:29:56 And by this time you mentioned that you were enrolled in a private school? Was that. CY: 00:30:01 But that was only at the very beginning when I started, when I came out to Chicago because my parents didn' ; t know what to do. They want to work all day. And my grandmother found the job at a factory and they didn' ; t know where to put me. And so no one to watch me. They put me into this St George private school on Drexel, and, so I was there until the fifth grade. And then she, my mother says they just couldn' ; t afford it anymore, but it was really nice, you know? Yeah. I was very grateful. It was a very nice school. They gave me piano lessons and you know, sometimes, I was the only of two or three kids in a class, you know, so I, it was very, very progressive. It was good. AT: 00:30:52 So very, very small class sizes? CY: 00:30:56 Yeah, it was very small class sizes. Just the first year was difficult because I was, when I was first put into, I guess first grade they said I was too old to be in Kindergarten. They up knee up to was a secondary or something and I couldn' ; t speak English. Cause I was. And I remember being very, very upset because I asked to go to the washroom, but I kept saying, you know, very slangy term of I have to go Benjo you know, and then the teacher said, just ignored me. And finally I just had an accident and she got furious with me and, I was very embarrassed and I always remembered that, she was a very, very angry teacher. She was angry that she had to deal with me. I think there was a lot, the war was still going on and, and the yard, you know, the recess yard kids would come up and say that, you know, their father was in the Pacific War and, this and that and this and that. So did, he had some problems, but it' ; s all the guy just being kids, you know. AT: 00:32:18 So even at a very young age, you were kind of experiencing this discrimination directly? CY: 00:32:27 What I would do is, because I was called a day boarder, it was a school that really was for people who boarded over there. I got to go home everyday. Someone picked me up around six O' ; clock. There' ; s, after working and I told my mother I wanted to bring a bag of candy the next stage of school. And she said, oh, okay. So she gave me a bag of candy and I would pass it out. I said, if you don' ; t hit me, if you play with me, I' ; ll give you some of my candy. And it worked, you know, and being kids, no one really is into, you know, any, theoretical problems with the war or anything. They just wanted to have fun. So I would bring my stash of candy and give it away. So it' ; s funny, I always remember that. AT: 00:33:16 Smart kid! CY: 00:33:16 I mean, you know, it' ; s a clever way of saying, okay, you get to play with me, but I, you know, you play with me, you can' ; t go around, you know, this and that, you can' ; t beat me up or anything, you know. Mmm Mmm. AT: 00:33:32 You mentioned your grandmother found a job at a factory. CY: 00:33:36 Some factory I, they used to jump around. Those jobs were, yeah. Yeah. AT: 00:33:42 And how about your parents? What were they doing? CY: 00:33:45 Oh, gosh, my mother found a job in a factory. My father was always a, well, it' ; s, it' ; s sort of embarrassing to say my father was more of a gambler and he liked to go to the pool hall and he liked to go to the tracks. And so I, you know, he had occasional jobs here and there, but he really didn' ; t, I can' ; t remember anything that he really did, you know, as a profession or as a, as a career really. He had all these little jobs. He was a line cook at a restaurant once and you know, whatever. AT: 00:34:32 So, in that case, do you think that it was probably your mother and your grandmother who had the steady income? CY: 00:34:42 It was my mother who basically had the steady income, from the, from this factory. Umh. AT: 00:34:50 And do you remember what these, what kind of factories they were? What? CY: 00:34:55 Fishnet factory I remember she had and she was very upset. I forgot the year when they moved out of Chicago. Yeah. And, she had to find another job. Um, where did she go after that? I think she went to UPS and found a job at UPS. Oh Wow. And then after that she found a job with an insurance company that, I think continental, yeah, downtown. And she was there until she retired. Yeah. So she always had a steady job. This is a woman who always worked, you know. AT: 00:35:42 Had she worked in LA as well, do you know? CY: 00:35:46 Well, my mother was very young when she had me and I imagine that a, she used to, Oh yes, she did. She worked in the, on first street in the, she said them, Ma Manju or Mochi place that, yeah, yeah, she worked there, but you know, there' ; s like a high school type of salary. AT: 00:36:10 It back in LA. CY: 00:36:12 Yeah. AT: 00:36:14 So you, you shared a little bit about those earlier days and the South Side and you had mentioned that there is a bit of a Japanese American community there, that there were restaurants and. CY: 00:36:36 It was a huge community. Yeah. AT: 00:36:38 Grocery stores? Can you maybe go into a little bit more detail about, I guess to start maybe some of those businesses that you were recalling the grocery store, if you remember their names are, or where they were located? CY: 00:36:57 Well, the name of one' ; s Fujimoto' ; s grocery store. He owned the building. Actually, on 43rd street here. A lot of the real estate in the area. Fujimoto' ; s. Well, I forgot the teapot in. I think my mother worked there for awhile as a waitress. Mmm. I' ; m trying to remember the, then you' ; re asking for the names of these places. I don' ; t remember the names, but I remember. You know, Oh, there was this, a store that sold a Mochi, you know, flavored Mochi down the street. And we would go in there and buy one just to munch on and that was run by an old, I thought at that time old, probably younger than me now, old, Issei man who did, who ran the business by himself. AT: 00:37:58 And, if you were to kind of map out the area where some of these businesses, and I imagine there were a lot of Japanese American families living there too, like residents. So in thinking about the South Side at that time, like where do you think those, I mean not to put it in borders in terms of borders, but that area, where would that have spanned to and from? CY: 00:38:30 Well, you' ; re asking what t and g geography of that was? It was a huge area. You know, there were Japanese friends of mine that lived on 39th street, way down, much more south and, or maybe that would be north, I guess, excuse me. And there were a large, and these people that live more further up north, closer to the school. I went to Hyde Park high school. So going up and that area, you' ; re going into a 51st or 52nd now called the Hyde Park area, you know? Yeah. So there were, it was quite a big area in a sense of speaking it dependent on financial too, if you like. My, my mother' ; s family and we were all sort of like eking out a whatever living we could. We had a more of a rough time, but the Japanese [inaudible] came out or camp with more of a financial, let' ; s say, cash co stash, so to speak. They were able to afford buying buildings. They bought a, some buildings and they lived more, north more south, more south, more, more in the Hyde Park area. It depended upon your financial situation. AT: 00:39:59 And, so you mentioned you went to Saint George until fifth grade. Where did you go? CY: 00:40:08 After that? I went to a school called Shakespeare Grammar school. Yeah, yeah. It was on the South Side. AT: 00:40:17 And from there you said you went to Hyde Park high school? CY: 00:40:21 Yeah. AT: 00:40:24 Um and can you, uh, tell me a little bit more about the, the demographics of that neighborhood and those schools? At that time. CY: 00:40:37 It was, at that time it was. AT: 00:40:41 Okay. CY: 00:40:42 It was a lot of Jewish kids. There were, Japanese and Jewish and I used to play with some of the African American kids that, there was more or less, color line, I would call it between 43rd and Drexel then. And there was a street called cottage grove. And on the other side there was influx of, African Americans, you know, who made the great migration, as you probably know, you know, and they were coming into the city too. At the same time, a lot of the Jewish people were abandoning the area because the Japanese came in and whatever, and lot of them moved into the suburbs and north, you know, Chicago, et cetera. So, although, you know, I have friends who, strangely enough when they came to Chicago like Jean Machine Ma, you know, we were talking about she, lived on the West Side of Chicago and, she grew up among, mostly Caucasian people was I grew up mostly it was all Japanese, you know, Japanese Americans, so to speak. AT: 00:42:08 Okay. And, as you were growing up in Chicago, did you, besides school, did you have any other activities? CY: 00:42:17 A lot. Yeah, the activities were centered around, the, the church actually because they provide a lot of Bible study things and I would go to summer camps and, I made a lot of friends. I used to go up and down the street going into and taking my doll buggy and, and, looking for people to play house with. And, yeah, it was nice time. AT: 00:42:53 And, what was the name of this church? CY: 00:42:56 You know, I knew you' ; re going to ask that. Oh, now I remember Ellis community center. It was actually a church, too. Ellis community center. AT: 00:43:09 Okay. AT: 00:43:10 And. CY: 00:43:11 There was a reverend. I remember the reverend Nishimoto. Yeah, he was very good. AT: 00:43:23 And so there you said that there were a lot of activities through the church? CY: 00:43:27 Yeah, well it' ; s through that community center, we would go, we could go every day and we' ; ll go on to the, what they call a play area. There was a pool table. Um, they participated in, you know, years are gone and they' ; re still doing it at the Museum of Science and Industry. There' ; s something about Christmas around the world every year Christmas we participated in that. The group from the Ellis community center, we got to put on a, I guess a skip. I was not really a skip so much as it was the story of the birth of Jesus, you know? And it was really very exciting that we were at the museum and we were so proud of ourselves or you know, just I guess a fourth, fifth grade kids and I to this day, I remember my teacher there named Mary Matsumoto and she, she makes watch and impression on me, you know, such a wonderful impression. AT: 00:44:28 What did she teach? CY: 00:44:30 Well, I don' ; t really know. She was our Sunday school teacher, our counselor, you know, she sort of just hovered over us. She took care of everything, you know, she was actually a very young woman, but I, you know, I, of course when I' ; m young like that, I think, I think she' ; s an older lady. She must' ; ve been all of 19 or 20 and, and, going to college or something, you know, but I always remember her. She was very warm and, sort of like a mentor later. You know, I remember. AT: 00:45:09 One thing I' ; m curious about is you mentions. The, how strongly your, your father and your grandmother, specifically, how they had kind of, what their response was to the war and the evacuation. CY: 00:45:29 Very embarrassing to talk about that, they were very bitter. I mean, that' ; s all I can remember is that I think two of my father' ; s dying day, he was, you know, he might' ; ve been suffering from depression and I have no idea such, but I know that, oh, my father had a lot of trouble, with, you know, different races. He had issues, you know, when, I would play with my, different friends, you know, and, he was very, very bitter man. So I, I try and, you know, remember that try to overcome that kind of thinking. AT: 00:46:21 Well, and my question was, did he, and maybe your grandmother, if you remember, when you made the move to Chicago. Did they still have or, share some of those feelings with you? Are, maybe about the move or about Chicago itself or did anything change? CY: 00:46:53 Well, you asking if they were still bitter about everything? AT: 00:47:01 Or, if there was bitterness about being in Chicago, you know, kind of uprooting and starting a new in this. CY: 00:47:08 Well, yeah, they did. Yeah. Because it' ; s interesting that when you came to Chicago, I had my aunt around, I had an uncle, I had a lot of relatives. Every single one of them left within a period of year or maybe two years after we got here, they all went back to California. They hated it. They hated Chicago. I think probably the biggest excuse was the weather. But I think they were not used to it. They, you know, they grew up in California and it was entirely different kind of country and, they want to go back there and they regarded as home. So, so I think, a lot of them eventually went back and my father never would, as I said, you know, until, until he was an old man, you know. AT: 00:48:07 And did you have any feelings about it? CY: 00:48:11 About going back to, oh, well I did in the sense that when I was a teenager, I lost a lot of my friends. They were all going back. There was a strong migration of Japanese American families going back, you know, to California. And, I sorta wish, oh, I wish I could go back to, but it was something that when you' ; re a child, you don' ; t really conceive of what it would be like. All you know is that you' ; re here in Chicago, this is your home and you' ; ve grown up here all your life. So, it was something that, it never occurred to me, you know. AT: 00:48:52 And, being a kid in Chicago or you know, of course growing up here. And having those types of experiences where it' ; s, you know, a pretty strong reminder of what happened during the war and kind of how you had ended up in Chicago as a kid growing up here, were you pretty self aware of, you know, like how you had gotten to Chicago, or this kind of. This particular experience, you know, was camp something that people, young people were aware of or thinking about or talking about? CY: 00:49:37 Actually, they referred to it back and forth, but it was not something that was discussed at any length. You know, it was, you know, how kids are teenagers more interested in the next dance or the next get together. And, I think we all sort of huddled together. You know, we all felt more protected by being very, very close. We are in the organizations where in the interclub council, I remember, you know, it was very interesting because, I think the people that ran, you know, people like the resettlers committee, which I think preceded of course the JASC now that I think they worked very hard at trying to establish a cohesive community. And I very grateful for that because I feel rather proud of the way we, integrated into the city and how, I, I believe Chicago welcomed us of for the most part, you know, for the most part. And Japanese were very good at keeping a very low profile. So it' ; s not to rock the boat, so to speak. You know, we were good workers and, a lot of my friends became very, good scholars. They went to colleges, et cetera, and they had a very good life, you know, and that was a, that was part of the nature of the, I think, the personality of the Japanese people. AT: 00:51:45 I want to touch on a specific thing that you had mentioned. So you mentioned the interclub council. Yeah. Can you tell me more about your involvement and that or other clubs? CY: 00:52:02 Do you remember? I mean, you don' ; t remember of course, because. AT: 00:52:05 Not personally, but. CY: 00:52:06 But you' ; ve heard of it. I, I have a friend named Miyoko Awakawa, I dunno, she know her, but anyway, she was one of the, excuse me, officers of interclub council and we were all involved in that because of our organization, in sports, especially at where we would all play at a place called Olivet, community center, I guess Olivet community center. AT: 00:52:43 Olivet Institute? CY: 00:52:45 Exactly, exactly. And they would have meetings. I remember going to the meetings and I actually don' ; t remember what we talked about, but, it was good because it was a, as a way of joining up and having an agenda and making sure that, people all felt included, you know, and, sports was a good vehicle, I feel for getting young people together. You know, it was, besides all the dances and all that, but a sports is a way that people among the Japanese groups felt comfortable. Excuse me. AT: 00:53:36 And, so was this something that kind of took place? Because of course they' ; re the Japanese American community in Chicago, sort of in these earlier days of late forties, early fifties, and on, people were kind of spread out? CY: 00:54:01 Oh, yes, yes. AT: 00:54:04 So I' ; m curious about first something like interclub council. Was this something that was like focused on any particular neighborhood or area or group or like who, who was. CY: 00:54:16 Reason it was good is it focused on the fact of combining the South Side and North Side teams together so that we didn' ; t feel like, for a long time though the South Side teams, the same would feel the North Siders were like, you know, complete strangers to us and they were our enemies and we were very competitive, you know, but the interclub council was, I think it was a way to have us all get to know each other, which I thought was very smart, you know, now that I look back on it and we all made friends and I think, you know, everything was like North Side, South Side, the North Side had a Clark and Division area as you must have known. And, they had all the clubs as et cetera, so that when we had basketball games, we had the North Side teams versus the South Side teams and, and you know, there are things like we would have a beauty contest. I remember, a Nisei queen and all that kind of stuff going on those days. It was, it was always attempts to try and enjoy all the different, Japanese groups, you know, not to keep them so separated. AT: 00:55:49 And what, if there were like a greater reason, or intention behind this kind of. CY: 00:55:55 You know, I really don' ; t know. I wasn' ; t part of the organization as such, I just participated in it. But I do know that, people were all, you know, you have to be at the time, you have to be joining things because that' ; s the only way, you know, your life is filled with some kind of, you know, enjoyment. You know. It was a time when I, I, when I remember going to high school and at time that I went to change later, I will, they said, you know, a girl want to get into a try high wide club. They had these high wide club and try our clubs. And, they told her because she was Japanese, she was not allowed to get in. And, I mean those, complete discrimination at that time. And, I heard that changed later of course. But, when we were younger, we were told we can' ; t do this. We can' ; t do that because, you know, that' ; s for the white people, and this is for the, you know, this is the Japanese, you know, because they don' ; t want you there and they don' ; t like you. So why do you push the button, you know, so to speak. And, I think we' ; re always trying to, it was a, it was a hard time in the sense that it was postwar. It was postwar but, a lot of people still had strong memories of the war time. And, because of that, it' ; s very hard to figure out, you know, how you can tread on this kind of a problem. You know, people, you know, some people just said, oh, I don' ; t care. You know, it' ; s fine with me. You know, I don' ; t care if the, I get discriminated against or what. But I think the Japanese people were very frightened, especially the ones that were in camp. The ones that were a little bit older than me that already been tossed around, locked up behind barbed wire. They were very, very careful about not rocking the boat. Now, you know, my daughter came along and, you know, my, the younger generation, I don' ; t think they quite understand how, how, how, we are so bogged down by the environment that we were in because I think a lot of people say, well, you could have just, you know, fought back. You could have done this or you could' ; ve done that. But, you know, it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t like that. It was very, it' ; s very hard to explain and I' ; m sure people wiser than I am, can figure that out some day. But it' ; s one of those, it' ; s one of those things. It' ; s like how the Jews walked into the concentration camps or, you know, how you just follow orders, you know, you figure, well, everyone' ; s going to be good to us if we just, you know, behave. And I think that, that was a big point among Japanese people who were there. They knew how to behave. Then you how to take orders. They knew how to not rock the boat, but that' ; s no longer the way it is. That' ; s why when I read about the march, that' ; s something that would never have happened in our days. See, it' ; s, it' ; s almost, you never want to put the spotlight on you. You always avoid that since those days are gone. Thank goodness. CY: 00:59:57 Hmm. AT: 00:59:59 Let' ; s see. So this is, this is great because, you know, you were, like I mentioned where we' ; re interested in this period of resettlement and you' ; re kind of right at that age where you' ; re, you know, going through, these clubs and sports programs and, and things like that. I' ; m wondering if you can tell me a little bit about, I mean, I, so the kind of establishment or organized organization of a community isn' ; t something that you might necessarily realize is happening at the time. CY: 01:00:49 That' ; s right! AT: 01:00:50 But I' ; m wondering in retrospect if you' ; d be able to tell me about, kind of some of the, the institutions or organizations or people that you remember kind of making that happen in Chicago. So whether it' ; s folks that, all of it, I mean, granted you were of a certain age, so you' ; re going through a particular experience of, of this development of community development. But what are some other, groups, or places maybe that was a part of this kind of founding of a community here? CY: 01:01:43 Are you talking about organizations like. AT: 01:01:46 Or churches or, anything? CY: 01:01:48 Well, I remember I didn' ; t attend the church, but I remember the Buddhist church was a very strong influence. A man called Reverend Kubosei was the reverend. And this was on the south side of Chicago. And, that was quite a meeting place for a lot of teenagers, older teenagers. Got to meet them, future boyfriends, girlfriends, etc. That was good, organization as such. I think a lot, another thing that was good is that there were some big businesses such as, well, I, I was very fortunate. I always got a job. As I got older, I was working and I worked over at a place called Del farms as a, as a grocery checker. And, I got that job through Mr Sunohara. I worked for him. Years later I worked for Henry Ushijima, who was a filmmaker for documentaries for Mayor Daley and I worked for him as a girl Friday. I always seem to be working with Japanese people. I worked for a man named Omar Kaihatsu, who was, I think he died now, but I worked for him as a secretary for awhile. So I was very fortunate. I had all these, you know, Japanese people helping me out. AT: 01:03:33 And was this post high school or in high school? CY: 01:03:37 Well, this is post of course. Yeah. During high school, I had, I worked at that Del Farms as a teenage cashier, you know. AT: 01:03:51 So maybe as a weekends or after school kind of job? CY: 01:03:55 It was after school. I would go there after school and on weekends. Yeah. And I was a. I was very happy. I liked the job. It was fun because I got to meet a lot of people. AT: 01:04:08 And where was that located? CY: 01:04:09 The first, the one I worked at was on North Avenue and Armitage. It was called Del Farms. Okay. AT: 01:04:19 And what year did you graduate high school? CY: 01:04:21 I graduated in 1955. AT: 01:04:26 Okay. And, can you tell me a little bit about what you did after high school? You mentioned a few of the jobs, but. CY: 01:04:39 Huh, the problem was, right after I graduated I had this boyfriend, the Yamashiro of home. Okay. He wanted to get married. So foolishly I got married when, several months after I graduated, which was much too young and I was still working part time here and there. But that was. That was what I did. I got married and I' ; m with it all the problems of being a housewife, which. AT: 01:05:21 Did you two move in together or move? CY: 01:05:25 Yeah, I yeah, he actually, he moved in with me into my, into my house where I lived with my mother and father and grandmother. AT: 01:05:33 And was, where was that at that time? CY: 01:05:36 That was on the West Side of Chicago. Yeah. AT: 01:05:43 Would you remember the streets of the address of that apartment or was it a house? CY: 01:05:49 It was a house. It was a, it was a, it was on a street called Bloomingdale, near, was now I think called Bucktown area. But at that time it was pretty bad. AT: 01:06:07 And, did you move anywhere after that path? CY: 01:06:13 Yes, all over the city. So my husband and I then moved to a place honoree Racine my girlfriend' ; s father on the building near a Wrigley Field, it was Racine and Addison and, moved over there for a little while. And then from there we moved to an apartment on Orchard Street near Diversity and Orchard, which, you know, is so I know all these neighborhoods. And, then, then, we moved up north to the fringe of uptown area, is a Clark and Foster area. And shortly after that my kids were growing up, I had two children. Actually I had three. One died. So I had, with two children and, I eventually got a divorce. Okay. So we lived up on Clark and Foster then. Yeah. I sold the place and moved to Ravenswood Manner, which I told you about that one. And I' ; d been there for over 40 years. Okay. This is all sort of personal stuff, you know. AT: 01:07:48 And. CY: 01:07:49 I, and you' ; re editing it, I hope. You know. AT: 01:07:52 Yes. no, and to be clear, it' ; s just, one of the reasons we' ; re curious about where people stayed and lived is. CY: 01:08:03 You have to remember too, Chicago has changed a lot. AT: 01:08:05 Sure. CY: 01:08:06 Chicago' ; s one of those cities that, when you say now, I lived on Orchard Street near the [inaudible]. Oh, you know, such a great neighborhood. At that time it was all tenements, you know, it was really, really a bad neighborhood. Everything changes in Chicago. It depends on, you know, you could live across from Cabrini Green. My son had a place a business establishment across from Cabrini Green and then the city went and changed it all around and now became all yuppie area. And Yeah. So the taxes went up and, everything is, changed. It' ; s interesting this city is a van or location, location, location. AT: 01:08:51 Right, right. And, so as you mentioned before and kind of what' ; s you know, pretty generally understood by, I would say, Japanese American community members here in Chicago is, in when people were first coming from camp, there were a lot of challenges in finding housing. There' ; s a lot of housing discrimination and, you know, some issues with some of the neighborhoods where people were actually able to find housing. And you mentioned that, you know, some of these areas where you' ; d stayed. Of course, it' ; s not the same that it was You know, even 10 years ago for some of these spots, were there, did you have any, Were there any challenges in the, in some of these past homes or apartments or, CY: 01:09:52 Well, it' ; s interesting that you say that, but it has nothing to do with, I think it being Japanese American, I had a hard time. I own the, you know, I sold the place on Clark and Foster and I wanted to get a mortgage for my place on the Ravenswood. And I had a hard time because I was a single woman and a lot of at that time a single woman was very, very risky for banks to give them a loan to and no husband. I said I could pay it by myself. I had a job at a hospital and they said, well, you know, it' ; s, you know, you, you' ; re not married. And so I went jumping from place to place and I finally found, Tom and at that time, Tom, and so they would give me a mortgage, but that was due to other people had that problem too, being, being a woman without a husband created all kinds of, you know, cultural issues, which is not the same as now of course, you know. AT: 01:11:00 Sure. And it' ; s not the same as 1945. CY: 01:11:06 Oh yeah. Well 1945. Yeah. That was a nightmare year. Yeah. AT: 01:11:12 So we have a, just a little bit of time left, let' ; s see. I guess, but before I get into kind of a random question, is there anything else, you know, as far as, so since, you know, we are curious and interested in learning more about resettlement in Chicago and kind of those, this start of, you know, a pretty strong Japanese American community, or at least Japanese American presence in Chicago. Are there any other things that come to mind or that you' ; d want to share and, helping us have a better sense of what that was like? CY: 01:12:05 It was interesting. It was a time of transition. I don' ; t really know if I can, you know, really help you out with that because, it depends on, as I say, the times, the times are changing very quickly, very fast. It was unheard of at the time that, you know, when I was young, but to be mixed marriages, for instance, as such, my daughter is married to a German fellow. You know, I mean, it' ; s so different now, you know, but at the time, you know, it was, it was a very narrow way to see the world. And I think we maintained that I have in this Japanese community and having boyfriends in that group and having the clubs all know each other. We tried to sustain and maintain it, but a lot of them, as we got older, we have what we call reunions. We' ; re old now and, there are certain was like, I like to go to the unions. Say, Have it in Las Vegas or something, but there are some of the people that just want nothing to do with it one. Nothing, as a reminder, it depends on, I guess what you got out of it for yourself. You know, I feel like, it created a lot of good memories for me. There was some sad memories too, and, self worth. But I feel that, I feel that it was very, very unique. You know, it' ; s like I get together with Japanese people now, my church. I do go to church now. And, and you know, you get, you meet people in the first thing you said, one of the first things you say, where were you in camp? You know what, someone who was around my age in the 80s and what camp are you in? So it' ; s a form of, you know, it' ; s a touchstone that, because say, you know, and I' ; ve had friends who were not in camp who are almost jealous of the fact that, well, I don' ; t have the community sense that you do because I don' ; t know these people are that people are there. Because, I was, I stayed in Chicago. I said, well, I just stay in Chicago because if you' ; re in Chicago and the war broke out, you were not sent into a camp. It' ; s interesting that, I feel, I was more privileged to be able to be in this, history. I don' ; t think my children will ever understand us, you know, because they see it as a sort of anomaly, you know, that, you know, the world' ; s, so you' ; re Japanese Ameri and, so what? You know, their attitude, well, it was a big thing at the time. It was a community that could never be reestablished and it was unique and, we thought it would go on forever, you know, at the time [Inaudible] and it doesn' ; t like everything else, you know, it, it dissolved and, that' ; s what' ; s so sad about it. You know, it is what it is, you know what I' ; m saying? AT: 01:15:52 Do you, are you saying that the community dissolved, that sense of community? CY: 01:15:57 Yes, yes, yes. Which is good because it was too enclosed. AT: 01:16:03 Yeah. Do you have any, any thoughts of why that might have happened or what happened? CY: 01:16:09 Well, I believe one of the things is that we were all together because we were desperate for trying to survive. You know, at postwar. But as people became more prosperous, as people became more aware that they could establish themselves in the city, they felt that they wanted to go into like the suburbs or they felt they didn' ; t want to be tagged along with, you know, provincial ideas of being a Japanese community as such. And I can understand that, you know, it' ; s, you got one foot in that, one foot in this other, what you want to do is you want to be just as the same as the whole population here. There' ; s a sense of, we, you know, we all felt we weren' ; t less than but we were not Caucasian people, you know, so it' ; s interesting. It' ; s a very, very half and half type of thing. Yeah. I don' ; t know how to put it. AT: 01:17:26 It is interesting and I keep thinking about what you were sharing about, some of your father' ; s perspectives because on the one hand he, you mentioned he was pushing for, you know, we need to assimilate that, you know, it' ; s almost like, you know, quote unquote our faults or, you know, we' ; re taking on the burden. CY: 01:17:50 Right, right, right AT: 01:17:51 But on the other hand, when you were bringing home friends who are not Japanese, you said. CY: 01:17:58 Oh, it' ; s terrible. AT: 01:17:58 He had issues with it. So it' ; s, it' ; s kind of, that' ; s what I' ; m, to what you' ; re saying, that' ; s just what I' ; m thinking about is kind of this double edge sword. CY: 01:18:08 Yes. Yes. Especially I had real close Korean girlfriend. Oh yeah. It' ; s just the whole, I had to see her on the sly, so to speak. And yeah, he had all kinds of, very, racial or racist ideas about people. I don' ; t know, it was just his ideas that would be a projection of his own anger. I remember he, he worried about, when I was growing up about my being dark, he said, don' ; t let yourself get dark. And if they would rub lemon all over me thinking that, and they were worried about, you know, looking, to, Asian, that was a big thing. You know, he felt that was a detriment. And, he, he himself, put a great emphasis on appearance of, you know, Japanese people, you know, he felt it was very exhausting to be around. Yeah. In that sense of speaking, you know, AT: 01:19:33 So again, we just have a little bit of time left. I' ; m curious in, in your opinion and. With the perspective of a lot of time and distance from, you know, the war and all of that. What are some of the ways, if any, that the wartime experience and resettlement impacted your life or maybe you as a person or? CY: 01:20:15 It' ; s a big question. You mean the whole experience and how it impacted my, I don' ; t really know how to put it. It' ; s very hard to explain. I, all I know is that as I' ; ve gotten older, I wasn' ; t like that when I was young, but as now I' ; m in my eighties. I often feel like. Okay, let me put it this way. There' ; s a, there' ; s a magazine I just read about the article and the Crazy Asians, you know, about the Chinese American community that' ; s all excited about finally getting through and having a film about them as a contemporary. And I was thinking, you know, it took a long time for that to happen. It wasn' ; t the issue of them being in a, you know, dragon lady type of thing or anything like that. But, I thought, that' ; s how I felt about the Japanese Americans that we were always seen as a, you know, the Geisha girl or something like that. And I always felt a little resentful about that, but I figured that' ; s the way it is. And, you know, you can' ; t change it, but sometimes I, I, I really do get upset about, you know, how people come up to me and, and I saw ignorance, you know, saying, well you speak English very well, or you know, or this and that. And I think, and then I' ; m always surprised at, I have a girlfriend who was next door and was a lawyer who had no knowledge, hardly any knowledge of the camp. I mean, this is a woman who' ; s been through, you know, university and everything. But she had, she said, well, how was it like, and what was it like and why and this and then I thought to myself, you' ; re the one that' ; s an attorney. You should probably know all these answers. But you know, it could see that some people are just so not aware of these things. And it' ; s sort of gets me a little angry that that kind of knowledge hasn' ; t been a shared. It isn' ; t that no one cares. It' ; s just that no one bothered, you know, it' ; s like, it' ; s like when I read all the history of the American Indians, I mean, I' ; m sitting there shocked by what happened is because no one actually teaches you these things and this is what' ; s going on with me now. It took me a ... Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamashiroConstance20180810.xml YamashiroConstance20180810.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories& ; layout=1
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Yamashiro, Constance (8/10/2018)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Takada, Anna
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Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/8/2017 Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky (10/8/2017) 1:01:28 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/303192048 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/303192048?h=e0041456b8" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00:01 This is an interview with Rocky Yamanaka as part of Alphawood Gallery' ; s Chicago Resettlement Experience Oral History Project. The oral history project is being conducted in line with the current exhibition Then They Came for Me: Incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II and the Demise of Civil Liberties. Today is October 8th, 2017 and we' ; re recording at about 2:40 PM at the Alphawood Gallery oral history studio. Rocky Yamanaka is being interviewed by Anna Takada of Alphawood Gallery. Rocky Yamanaka: 00:00:38 What' ; s your name? AT: 00:00:39 Anna. RY: 00:00:40 Takada? AT: 00:00:41 Yes. RY: 00:00:42 Oh, OK. AT: 00:00:43 Do you know any Takada' ; s? RY: 00:00:45 I, the name is familiar. I just can' ; t place. AT: 00:00:51 Maybe David or John? Those are my grandparents. RY: 00:00:54 Oh, great. I probably knew him maybe years ago. AT: 00:01:01 So, um, to start, can you just state your name? RY: 00:01:05 My name is Iwa Yamanaka. Uh, they call me Rocky because that' ; s what Iwa, Iwa means rock. And so the once my friends...what it meant is they start calling me Rocky. So I' ; ve been Rocky for the last, how many years? 85 years. Even though I' ; m 90. AT: 00:01:32 And and you' ; re 90, you said? RY: 00:01:34 Yes, I' ; m uh, yes. AT: 00:01:37 Where, where and when were you born? RY: 00:01:40 Uh, March 27, is it 27, March 27, 1926. So makes me nineties, 90 years old, I believe. Is that right? AT: 00:01:59 And where were you born? RY: 00:02:01 Here in Chicago. Uh, my mother, well my father was, my, my father came here in 1900 as I understand, uh, and my mother, he went back to Japan and married my mother, I think in 1920 and I was born in 1927. I had an older brother and older sister and one younger sister. AT: 00:02:35 And um, all of your siblings, were they born in the U.S.? RY: 00:02:40 Yes. And. AT: 00:02:42 In Chicago? RY: 00:02:43 In Chicago. I' ; ve lived here all my life. Um, and well that' ; s about AT: 00:02:54 Do you remember what your father did for work? RY: 00:02:57 Well, he owned a restaurant. Uh, he came as a young boy, I understand, with a Caucasian family that was in Japan. And they came back and they brought him and I understand he got educated here and he started a restaurant in Chicago downtown and, and he went back and married my mother in 1922, I believe, something like that, and he brought her back. And he had four children. My older brother Kan, my older sister Mary Shizuko, and I was third, and then my younger sister is, um, we call her Terry but her Japanese name is Sh-- No, I can' ; t even remember. It is so long. Anyway, she' ; s in a nursing home now because she' ; s kind of lost her memory, uh, in the last... AT: 00:04:14 Is she in Chicago as well? RY: 00:04:17 Yes, someplace uh, but she' ; s under care of uh, because she' ; s, she, she' ; s kind of lost her memory. Um, so, of my family, uh, I think I' ; m the only one left. My father' ; s gone, my older brothers, older sister. Uh, I' ; m the third and Terry is not doing too well. And uh, well that' ; s about all I can say about myself. AT: 00:04:56 And, um, so you said your dad was at a restaurant downtown? RY: 00:05:02 Yes, he owned a restaurant downtown and then I think he lost it during some depression and then he ended up being a cook and um, it was on the South Side or downtown. Can' ; t remember. I remember where it is, but I can' ; t remember the street numbers anymore. It was on the South Side of downtown and my, my mother, I think my father, well, my father was very young when he came to Chicago, like I said, with the American family that was in Japan and he grew up apparently here in Chicago and got, uh, well he went back and married my mother in 1922 as I remember and I was the third of their family or four kids. AT: 00:06:09 What else do you remember about your father' ; s restaurant? RY: 00:06:15 It was on Clark and Chicago Avenue. That' ; s all, about all I can remember, I know it' ; s not there anymore. Neighborhood has changed. AT: 00:06:26 What was the neighborhood like as you remember it when he had it? RY: 00:06:30 Well, um, it' ; s not too far from downtown, but uh, it, it' ; s, to me it' ; s still the same as it was even then. They had little stores around those near, there' ; s a YMCA just down the street. I remember it was a kind of a popular area I thought, but he owned the restaurant on the Clark, Clark and Chicago. It was Chicago Avenue? Something like that, uh, during the Depression, uh, era. Um, as I remember he, um, yes, when did he pass away? He passed away about Nineteen Twenty...Nineteen Twenty, I guess... Well, anyway, it just. AT: 00:07:41 And do you know what kind of food it was that you had at the restaurant? RY: 00:07:44 Oh, it was a regular, typical restaurant. Nothing fancy, they served rice and scrambled eggs and everything else like that, you know. Um, but, uh, it was owned by my father, who, he would, I think he, he had some Japanese food, but uh, in those days people were more interested in eating just, uh, ham and eggs and stuff like that. AT: 00:08:19 Kind of like a diner style. RY: 00:08:21 Yeah it was things where people came in just to eat lunch and stuff like that. It wasn' ; t a fancy restaurant at all. AT: 00:08:30 Do you remember what it was called? RY: 00:08:34 Now I wonder if it had a name. It was right on Clark and Chicago Avenue. It was right near the corner. AT: 00:08:44 And where was your family living? RY: 00:08:48 Uh, I remember living on Cleveland Avenue, uh, up north about, uh just, it was where Cleveland and Lincoln Avenue cross. I don' ; t remember the address, uh, except that we lived right on the corner. Uh, but after my father died and then my mother had them move, it was, at the time there was only three kids left in our family. Um, then we ended up going, where did we go, up a little further north. It' ; s hard to remember things like that. The street name, Fullerton Avenue, Lincoln, Clark, somewhere in that area, I remember. AT: 00:09:50 So just a little bit farther north. RY: 00:09:53 Yeah. AT: 00:09:54 And do you remember where you went to, where you went to school? RY: 00:09:59 It was called, it was Lincoln school. I think it' ; s still there. And while our high school, yeah, it' ; s all on the near north side. Um, and uh, yeah, I, I grew up there and let' ; s see... When things happened kind of gets mixed up in my head. AT: 00:10:32 Take your time. RY: 00:10:32 Um, but, well, I, I remember getting drafted on V-J of World War II and I went, I was, I spent two, two years in the army. The war had just ended when I got drafted. AT: 00:10:51 How old were you? RY: 00:10:53 I was probably 18. Uh, I was, I think I was 16 when I graduated from high school and most of the guys that I graduated with all were older and they went in the Army. A lot of them got killed, I remember. World War II. And I, when I got my draft notice, everybody started celebrating, they said the war is over. So like I said, I got drafted on V-J of World War II. AT: 00:11:32 When you were in high school, you knew young men who were drafted RY: 00:11:36 Oh yeah. AT: 00:11:38 and left during the war. RY: 00:11:38 Yeah, yeah. World War II. And I spent two, two years in the army. Most of it was spent down in Baltimore, Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland. And because I was an artist, I got assigned to an art department in the camp. I didn' ; t have to go overseas, and I stayed there for two years. And then when my time came to get out of the army, they said, uh, join up for two more years and we' ; ll make you a, um, an officer. I said, no, I, I' ; ve got family at home that I have to go back to. AT: 00:12:35 That was your family in Chicago? RY: 00:12:37 Yes. They were still here, my mother and two sisters were still here and I was the oldest, so I felt like I couldn' ; t stay in the army. Uh, so I came out and made a living, uh, well because they gave free education. So I, I spent two years, uh, at an art school and I got a job pretty quick and I worked as an artist in Chicago doing commercial, uh, ' ; til about 1990 something when I retired. AT: 00:13:21 What school did you go to? RY: 00:13:23 It was called Lincoln School. AT: 00:13:27 For College. RY: 00:13:28 I never did get to go to college. What happened. AT: 00:13:35 For art school? RY: 00:13:35 Well, I went to art school. Uh, I went to the art art institute and also another place called the Chicago Academy of Fine Art. And I spent the most of my life doing commercial work. Uh, television just popped up and they were making little commercials, black and white commercials on TV. So I worked as a, as an artist doing TV commercials on black and white. It finally turned to color TV, I remember in 1990s, and that' ; s when I, I retired. AT: 00:14:24 And so when you were growing up on the near North Side and before the war, what was the neighborhood like? How would you describe it? RY: 00:14:41 Oh, in those days. Yeah. Your neighborhood was like five square blocks because we didn' ; t have cars or, uh, we just had bicycles and we just spent our time all within five square blocks, really. Um, I never had a car until probably when I came out of the army and that was the first time I ever had a car to drive any place outside of that neighborhood. So it was pretty primitive. Uh, there was street cars and stuff like that, uh, in Chicago. AT: 00:15:31 Did you know other Japanese Americans? RY: 00:15:36 I only knew, I think there was maybe at, there was more Japanese here in Chicago, but the ones that I knew in my neighborhood, there was probably only four Japanese, uh, families. The Joichi family that had like seven boys, the Endo family, which had four children, the Sato family that had two boys. Um, but there was no such thing as a Japan town or Chinatown, you know, so there was, they were spread out. But this was all near the near north side I would say is near Division Street and uh, Wells street area. AT: 00:16:32 And those families you named, those are folks who were there before the war? RY: 00:16:40 I would say so, yes. Yeah. AT: 00:16:44 Do you know what brought their families to Chicago? RY: 00:16:48 Uh, no I have no idea. But it seemed like most of the Japanese families all were in the restaurant business. That was, there was probably a half a dozen Japanese owned restaurants, not fancy restaurant. This is in the 30s, 20s, 30s, just little neighborhood restaurants. And they uh, it seemed like so many of them worked either owned them or worked in them in those area. Um, uh, I know some of the, the, the guys my age, they all, because we all went to the army and we all got to go, how do you say, we all got college educations and once you got educated, you, you ended up going to Philadelphia, um, different places in the country because you were educated and that' ; s where the work was, you know. So Chicago changed a lot after World War II. Before that it was very, you lived in five square blocks. But uh, like I say, after World War II ended, people went, we all got college education in whatever you wanted to learn. So they became engineers and other different people. Education. AT: 00:18:34 What were some other ways that Chicago changed after the war? RY: 00:18:39 Well, I, the biggest was that so many of the ones who came back from World War II, they got free education. So they all spread out. They went to college in New York, California, and Texas. So it kind of, people never came back. You know, they went to college in Philadelphia and they ended up living in Philadelphia, that type of thing. So all my, kids my age, I think we got free education. And your college took you to Philadelphia or California or New York and you ended up living there. They never came back. It seems like the old neighborhood just kind of dissipated after the war. AT: 00:19:42 But you decided to stay? RY: 00:19:45 Uh, yeah. I went to the Art Institute here in Chicago and I got right away, I got a job and I, I was in art field and that' ; s when television first popped up. And I was lucky enough to start making commercials for television, black and white television. And uh, in the fifties and sixties, seventies. AT: 00:20:10 And so when all of your, when your peers were taking work and moving to different parts of the country, why did you stay in Chicago? RY: 00:20:21 Because I had a pretty good job and I had a mother and two sisters that needed me. So I stayed in Chicago, and I enjoyed it. I mean, I know there' ; s art everywhere in New York or California. I had a chance to go to California, Walt Disney, I remember, but uh, I said no, I' ; ll stay here in Chicago. AT: 00:20:46 Did you support your family? RY: 00:20:48 Well, I was the main support I would say, you know? Yeah, it' ; s been so long ago, it' ; s hard to remember all the details, but, uh, part of growing up here in early Chicago, I was lucky to get an education because I spent two years in the army. AT: 00:21:23 And during the war, what was Chicago like during war time? RY: 00:21:32 Well, it' ; s uh, it wasn' ; t like the coast, I think, you know. The coast, I think people moved away from the coast, uh, for safety sake. I know the Japanese people who grew up in the California area, they got chased out of the, the coastline. So they, so many of them came to Chicago. So there was a big group, uh, Japanese people who were never there before the war, but once the war chased them out of the West Coast, uh, there was, uh, quite a handful of Japanese people here in Chicago. Whereas like I say, before the war, there was probably no more than 50 in the whole city. AT: 00:22:26 Do you remember your reactions to that? RY: 00:22:30 Well, I felt like a stranger because when I came out of the army and place was full of Japanese people, I didn' ; t know. You know, I thought, where did these people come from, you know, and I got to know ' ; em, you know, to sports and bowling and everything else. And I married one. So, but before that I was, I lived, I knew very few Japanese and there was no so-called, there was no Chinatown, there was, there was no Japantown. Very spread out, a lot more than Chinese people. AT: 00:23:16 When you were growing up, did you experience um, any kind of prejudice because you' ; re Japanese? RY: 00:23:23 Oh yeah, every now and then, you know, like when World War II started. But because you' ; re a Chi--, Oriental, they call you chink, all those, uh, and people got killed in the war and they, if you look Oriental, you know, they didn' ; t like you because they got killed fighting the Japanese army and stuff like that, but it wasn' ; t very bad. You know, occasionally you get sworn at and you know, but the, uh, there was no, no big, big thing, not to me. And, um, well, like I say, it was, this is in the 19-- what, 1940s, 50s. It was a pretty prejudiced era. AT: 00:24:24 And what, um, so you said that you were a little, you were surprised when you came back and there were a number of Japanese Americans. RY: 00:24:33 Yes, well, they got chased out of the West Coast, uh, they took most of the Japanese families that lived along the West Coast and they didn' ; t let them, because of the war with Japan, they made them all move inland. And a lot of them came to Chicago. They went to Salt Lake City and Texas and places like that. But, uh, there was so many Japanese here in Chicago that weren' ; t there before the war. And they formed their own churches and all that. And you know, I married, married one, uh, Japanese Gal who was born in California. And most of them, a lot of them went back after the war ended and they were free to go back to the West Coast. But a lot of them still stayed here. And, um, so there' ; s a, a lot more Japanese in Chicago than there were before the war, I should say. AT: 00:25:45 Do you remember when you first heard about the camps? RY: 00:25:50 Well, communication wasn' ; t that good in those days, you know, I mean, we didn' ; t have television and you have to read about it in uh, newspapers or something like that. So I didn' ; t know what was going on out there and I was only in my teen age so, you know, it didn' ; t make too much sense to me. You know, all of a sudden I see some Japanese kids in the neighborhood that weren' ; t there before and you just didn' ; t find out things too quick that, there was radio, but there was no television, stuff like that. So you learn what was going on very slowly out. You know, unless you were very inquisitive and asked questions all over the place. And I, like I say, I, that' ; s when I go, went in the army and I, I learned to, um, I got acquainted with some Japanese people because we were all in the same, uh, army camp more or less. And I had never hung around or knew many Japanese, uh, American people before the war, there was so few in Chicago. AT: 00:27:15 And so did some of those folks who moved to Chicago or maybe, maybe who you met in the army, did they tell you about their experiences during the war? RY: 00:27:28 Well, I knew that they, they were, they had farms in California and they' ; d got kicked out of the West Coast. Uh, the, you know, the army just just didn' ; t want Japanese people living along the Coast. So they made them sell their places, uh, of living and they had to go inland. And uh, the ones that ended up in Chicago, my wife' ; s family was one of them. Uh, and they had to learn new, new way of making a livin' ; than where they came from. And, and Chicago was a lot different from these California people who didn' ; t, they don' ; t like snow [chuckles] and they had to learn how to live in the snow country like Chicago. And it was cold. And in those days we didn' ; t have fancy cars and stuff like that. We had street cars and things that were, well, primitive, I say, but they, I guess they all get used to it, but a lot of them, when they had a chance, they went back to Southern California and places like that. AT: 00:29:00 Do you remember your reaction to hearing about the camps? RY: 00:29:06 The camps? Yeah. I was, I mean, it didn' ; t affect me at all, you know, no, nobody from here in Chicago had to leave their home and get put into a camp. Uh, but they chased all the Japanese people off of the West Coast and they had camps, uh, all along Arizona and, uh, places inland. Most of them, I would say, majority of them went back and tried to st--, because they, a lot of them were farmers and stuff like that, all along the coastline. A lot of them went back, but a lot of them, uh, decided to stay in the Midwest or where they got pushed back to because America was at war with Japan, so that they didn' ; t want Japanese people along the West Coast. And, but, uh, like I say, the men all, we all were in the army. So we had free education when we, if we survived the war. So we all went to school and the world changed quite a bit for us as people who, so by World War II and went to school after that and now we' ; re all college educated and stuff like that, you know, and didn' ; t have to live on a farm or anything like that. So people lived in cities a lot more, I think, after that. AT: 00:30:59 When you were growing up, um, were you in touch with your, your Japanese heritage? RY: 00:31:08 When was this here you' ; re talking about? AT: 00:31:10 When you were a kid? Did Japanese at home? RY: 00:31:15 I had my mother and father and there was probably here in Chicago, well, I can' ; t say for sure, but I knew maybe a dozen Japanese families, you know, the mothers and fathers were from Japan. But most of them were pretty old by that time the war was ending. But I grew up with the so called second generation, you know, and they' ; re, they grew up like I did. We went to primary school and high school and college here in Chicago or wherever. Um, there was no, it wasn' ; t like Chinatown, especially here in Chicago. The Japanese people were scattered quite a bit. They didn' ; t have a China, Japantown, like Chinatown had a lot of gathering of Chinese people. So, um, we just kind of melted into the, the, you know, there' ; s all kinds of different people that are Black people and there' ; s European people and stuff like that. So we were a part of that group. Uh, and so you, that' ; s what you grew up with, you grew up with Black kids and Italians and Germans and uh, there wasn' ; t no such thing as a Chinatown. There was never a Japantown like there is a Chinatown. Um, there was a Japanese area where a lot of the Japanese churches would, uh, would be. AT: 00:33:21 Do you remember some of those areas? RY: 00:33:23 Oh yeah, I can remember some of them, uh, they had some on the South Side. Um, and there was some on the North Side, you know, and then the Japanese families wandered. They' ; d be around their church group, you know, and then eventually they went out, the younger people went out to the suburbs. And before you knew it was very, uh, sparse, no, no big thing like Chinatown, you know. There was groups, areas where there' ; d be Japanese stores, uh, in one area. AT: 00:34:04 Did you ever go to any of those? RY: 00:34:04 Oh, yeah. Yeah. AT: 00:34:08 Where did you go? RY: 00:34:08 Well, uh, Clark and Division was one area that the Japanese used to hang around with and they had Japanese restaurants where you could get Japanese food, you know, and they had Japanese bars, um, and Japanese grocery stores, you know, where you could get stuff that, uh, the normal, you know, our parents liked. AT: 00:34:37 Do you remember any of those, the names of those spots? RY: 00:34:45 Oh, my memory is so bad. There was one, right on Clark Street. I remember everybody used to go there because they, they, what was the name of that, it was a, it was like a place where if you wanted Japanese food, you had to, you had to go to this place. He, he seemed to have all the different Japanese foods that they like. AT: 00:35:18 Grocery store? RY: 00:35:18 Huh? AT: 00:35:19 Groceries? New Speaker: 00:35:20 Pardon? AT: 00:35:20 It was a grocery store? RY: 00:35:22 Yeah. More or less a grocery store. But they sold, yeah. AT: 00:35:27 Star Market? RY: 00:35:28 Star Market. Yeah. It' ; s been there for a long time. Yeah. And people from all over Chicago used to come there just get Japanese type food. You know, I don' ; t know what exactly that is. Uh, you know, it' ; s rice and certain Japanese things that they like to cook with. AT: 00:35:51 That must' ; ve been a big change from before the war. RY: 00:35:59 Well, yeah, here in Chicago, but they had all these things along the West Coast. AT: 00:36:04 But I' ; m saying in Chicago though it must have been a big change to all of a sudden have a Japanese grocery store. RY: 00:36:12 Sure, oh yeah. We didn' ; t have a so-called Japanese town or China, like Chinatown or anything like that. The Japanese people were all, there' ; d be little groups of five families who had to live here and five families and stuff like that. It wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t so-called Chinatown or Japan. AT: 00:36:36 And did you, um, did you go to any churches or you or your family? RY: 00:36:42 Well I grew up in, um, Caucasian fam--, uh, neighborhood and I went to church with, uh, Caucasian kids and, um. AT: 00:36:53 What kind of church? RY: 00:36:54 It was a Lutheran church, I remember that. It was not a big church, and, um, I, we were probably the only Japanese, me and my sisters were probably the only Japanese people in that neighborhood. But, um, after the war, the Japanese groups that came from California formed their own little neighborhoods so they' ; d have Japanese church and stuff like that and grocery stores or restaurants, a lot of it was near Clark and Division, at least on the North Side. There was some on the South Side that did the same thing, you know, they, um, I think that for foreign people, you know, they stick around for the, where they can get that kind of food, you know, you know, there was a grocery store or something like that that was run by a Oriental, they wanted to be near there, you know, that type of thing. Instead of going out to the suburbs and not being able to get that kind of food or that' ; s a way it happened. AT: 00:38:14 Can you tell me more about some of the, I guess, kind of almost social groups that you joined? So you said golfing and bowling, were those mostly Japanese American? RY: 00:38:29 Well. Yeah. See, like I say, I was a little different because I was, I grew up here in Chicago and there was no so-called Japanese groups, but once a war started and I was about 12, 14 and they, they formed certain areas where they, Japanese stores would, would pop up, and Japanese restaurants. Yeah. So these certain areas, uh, had a lot of uh, Japanese people in them and they formed, they' ; d have their Japanese stores and Japanese, um, restaurants and everything else. AT: 00:39:17 And what about those sports leagues and things? You said that you did bowling and? RY: 00:39:22 Oh yeah, I bowl with everybody, you know, but eventually I ended up bowling with a Japanese group, you know, but before that I was bowling with Caucasians and different nationalities. But once, once the Japanese people formed, um, bowling leagues and golf clubs, I joined them because there wasn' ; t such a thing as a Japanese bowling league or anything like that before the war. And then once they start coming in from the West Coast, uh, those things were available, to me anyway. AT: 00:40:12 Did you ever, how did it feel being from Chicago and then having a lot of Japanese Americans coming in? RY: 00:40:26 I felt like a stranger here, I' ; ll tell ya. Because they' ; d seem to know each other and a lot of them spoke Japanese, you know? Uh, because of, their parents all spoke Japanese, so a lot of the American born guys could speak Japanese. Uh, I felt when I came out of the army, uh, and Chicago was, especially like Clark and Division area, that was full of Japanese families area. I really felt like a stranger, you know, I, I wasn' ; t used to seeing so many Japanese and, uh, Japanese stores and stuff like this. But you eventually you get used to it, you know. You' ; re not from the West Coast, but, uh, you know you' ; re same, uh, nationalities. So you mingled with them. And I ended up marrying one gal who was from California. AT: 00:41:36 Where did you meet Alice? RY: 00:41:39 I think it was at a bowling banquet. Haha. But that' ; s, that' ; s what I remember. She wasn' ; t much of an athlete, but I was a pretty good athlete, so I, uh, after the season' ; s over they have a kind of party. Bowlers come out with their girlfriends and all of that. I went there because I, I was bowling with the Japanese guys and that' ; s when I met my wife there. AT: 00:42:15 And when did you start going to Tri-C? RY: 00:42:20 Tri-C. Well, it' ; s probably when we moved. I guess, I, I was, I was living further north. I know there was very few Orientals. AT: 00:42:37 Further north from Lincoln Park? RY: 00:42:40 Yeah. I mean there was no, no other Japanese families where I, I grew up. After my father died, we had to move closer to downtown area and there was more Japanese, uh, families for some reason in that area. Wells Street, uh, Chicago Avenue, places like that and I got to know some Japanese, uh, families and kids my age and, yeah, well. AT: 00:43:20 How long were you there? In that neighborhood? RY: 00:43:28 Like I say, it was never a Chinatown like, like Chinese people have. There was no big Japantown. But there was little groups where there' ; d be maybe half a dozen families all lived there. So, um, I just, I went to Waller High School, there was no Japanese there when I started, but when they came in from the West Coast, I started having some Japanese people in my club. Uh, not club, but I got to know some Japanese families that way. You know, through school I think. AT: 00:44:17 Did anyone ever ask you which camp you were in? RY: 00:44:21 Oh yeah, they all think everybody' ; s from camp because they' ; re all from the West Coast and they all were in camps. There was like six different camps, spread along Iowa and away from the coast and they all come to Chicago and so that they think they all spent some time in camps. And I was, I never went to camp because I was, I was, I grew up here in the Midwest. AT: 00:45:05 Where, where did you move to after you were living in the Wells, um, and Chicago area? RY: 00:45:14 Well, it' ; s hard for me to remember all, I didn' ; t, I always lived on the North Side, some time closer to Downtown, some time, a little further away. Um, but mostly always on the North Side. South Side was kind of foreign to me. And so I got the meet a lot of the Japanese people who migrated in, uh, from the West Coast. Um, well. AT: 00:45:55 Where did you raise your children? New Speaker: 00:45:55 Pardon? AT: 00:45:56 Where did you raise your children? RY: 00:46:01 You asking me questions that I have to think a little. AT: 00:46:05 That' ; s fine! Yeah, take your time. RY: 00:46:07 Where were we? I' ; m trying to re... When we got married, we lived on Geneva Terrace, I think. They went to Waller High School, same as I did. Boy, it' ; s really funny that it' ; s hard for me to remember exactly where my, my kids went to grammar school. I know they went to Waller High School and they, they went to college and stuff like that, which I didn' ; t go. I went to Art Institute, uh, after I got out of the army. AT: 00:47:01 So they were probably, you were probably around this area, if they went to Waller high school. RY: 00:47:08 Oh yeah, I was always on the North Side. It seems like uh, never, we never went on the South Side much. It was just like a foreign country over in the South Side. But like I say, it' ; s hard to remember 90 years, so. AT: 00:47:30 And you' ; ve done a really really wonderful job. I mean, I don' ; t blame you. 90 years, that' ; s a long time. RY: 00:47:36 Yeah. AT: 00:47:37 So. RY: 00:47:38 Yeah. And things have changed so much over the years. Um, we had street cars, horses walking down the street and stuff like that. And now it' ; s a lot, much more modern, fast moving. AT: 00:47:59 Do you ever recognize, um, this area, I know that you know, you' ; ve, you' ; ve been having some issues with memory, but when you walk around this neighborhood, is it familiar to you? RY: 00:48:14 Oh yeah. Lincoln Avenue, Clark Street, you know, those are the main streets. They' ; ve changed somewhat, you know, but they' ; re still, Clark Street is Clark Street and I, I grew up in Lincoln Park. I was always near Lincoln Park, so I spent a lot of time swimming in Lake Michigan, playing baseball in ballparks all along. Bowling alleys are still, still around. AT: 00:48:47 Can you tell me the story about when John Dillinger was shot? RY: 00:48:52 I was, I was playing baseball about two blocks away and all of a sudden we' ; d see people you know, I, I probably, how old was I, I was probably about 10, 12 years old. And we see all these people running down towards Lincoln Avenue. I said, " ; what' ; s wrong? What' ; s wrong?" ; He says, " ; they shot Dillinger!" ; You know, so we put our stuff away and we ran down through the Biograph Theater, which is where he got shot coming out of the Biograph Theater. And you know, that' ; s, you know. AT: 00:49:39 Did you know who he was? RY: 00:49:41 Dillinger was well known to kids. I think for some reason kids, there was other, how did you say, bad guys that kids knew because they would give you tips. You know, they' ; d say, " ; gimme a newspaper kid," ; and they' ; d give you a buck or something like that, you know? Uh, I don' ; t know how you say it, but Dillinger was a famous guy. Yeah, and when he got shot at Biograph Theater, I mean that, that was a wow, you know, big, big event for people from all over the neighborhood, Wanted to see Dillinger. He was, he was a crook and all that, but he was like a hero to the young kids for some reason. ' ; Cause I went to, in school. I know some of the guys said they live in the same area that he did and he would give ' ; em a buck just to go get a newspaper, stuff like that, you know? And they all, you know, that' ; s what it was, like in the thirties. Baseball players and gangsters and everything else were, for the kids, uh, they were like heroes, you know? AT: 00:51:23 Like Al Capone? RY: 00:51:23 Yeah. Right. Well, they didn' ; t have television in those days. They just had newspaper and you, what you could hear from people talking, you know. I remember going to the Biograph Theater after he got shot and women were dipping their handkerchiefs in his blood, I remember, because he was so famous and well, a lot of people liked him because he was a gangster, a famous gangster. AT: 00:52:02 Another thing I wanted to be sure to ask about was the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked. RY: 00:52:09 Okay. AT: 00:52:10 Do you remember finding out about that news? RY: 00:52:15 Do I remember? In some ways I, I remember that I was at a Boy Scout with, our church had just started a Boy Scout, Scout... AT: 00:52:27 Troop? RY: 00:52:27 Uh, class, troop, and all of a sudden, boom. It didn' ; t happen because our scoutmaster had to go in the army. All right, well we didn' ; t have television, you know, and stuff like that in those days. So everything is from here, what you hear and you know, um... Everything was very primitive like this, you know, they, sometimes you wouldn' ; t hear about stuff for weeks, you know, radio sometimes, you know, there wasn' ; t so-called television at that time. So things didn' ; t, news didn' ; t move very fast like it does now. AT: 00:53:29 Do you remember your reactions to hearing about that? RY: 00:53:38 I would say that it didn' ; t bother me because I was, you know, a young teenager and didn' ; t make, mean that much to me, you know. But to the older people, I think in, you know, the idea of Pearl Harbor and all that was very important. And the newspapers made a big thing of it, I know. I remember because we went to war right after Pearl Harbor and so many people their, either their husband had to go into the army or the oldest son had to go in the army. So it was pretty bad time for a lot of people. You know, um, I was, I was still fairly young. I was what, 14. 1927, 41 yeah, I was, I was about 14 when the war broke out. And when I turned 17, getting ready to get drafted, the war had been going on for three years or four years and, uh, it just so happened, I got drafted on V-J, so when I reported downtown to go in the army, everybody started celebrating. There was a big party out downtown and everybody said the war, the war is over and they' ; re partying, dancing and everything out in the street. And that' ; s the day I got drafted and had to go into the army. AT: 00:55:44 What year did you meet Alice? RY: 00:55:47 Oh. AT: 00:55:49 Or how long have you been married? RY: 00:55:49 I think I was like 30 years old. So that was, I don' ; t know, what is that. I was out of the army, I know I was, I was in the army... AT: 00:56:04 Mid-50s. RY: 00:56:04 Huh? AT: 00:56:04 Mid-50s. RY: 00:56:06 Okay. Dates and everything. it' ; s kind of fuzzy. AT: 00:56:13 Um, and how many kids do you have? RY: 00:56:20 Uh, we had two girls. Um, yeah, and they have, the oldest daughter has two boys. Um, uh, well that, that' ; s my, the oldest one, uh, lives in New York state most of the time. But the son, sons come here a lot. AT: 00:56:58 Do you get to see them, so you get to see them a lot? RY: 00:56:59 Yeah. Yeah. In fact, one of them lives here now and we' ; re buddies. AT: 00:57:10 If you could leave any kind of message or legacy with your children and your grandchildren, what would you want them to, to know? RY: 00:57:18 I have no, I read a Playboy or something. I mean, I was, I was lucky. I, I was an artist so I did a lot of things that are unusual. I mean, I, I was involved in making television commercials early when television was, uh, just starting. Um, but outside of that, I didn' ; t work that hard, even though I was lucky to, I happened to work for a guy, a Chicagoan who worked at Walt Disney and when he came to Chicago and the war broke out, they, they needed, they wanted uh, how you say, but the East Coast and West Coast had had, Walt Disney and they had a well, and they could get things done by Walt Disney and the West Coast or East Coast had the stage plays and all that, so they could make play. Chicago and needed some somewhere for Chicago people to make television commercial. So they formed, my boss, the guy I worked for was a former Disney man and he started a, how you say, oh, AT: 00:59:08 Company? RY: 00:59:09 company that we made television commercials, black and white television commercials, early television. And eventually more and more came in. But uh, yeah, we were one of the first people in Chicago to make television commercials here in Chicago, because of him and him being known, former Disney man. And I learned to animate, make TV commercials, like that. So, that' ; s how my career went. Anyway, I just happened to be at the right place at the right time. And I learned how to be an animator from a guy. World War II started and they needed a guy from Walt Disney to make TV commercials. So, he taught me. Anyway, that' ; s kind of my life. AT: 01:00:20 Well, thank you so much for, for sharing all of that. RY: 01:00:25 Alright, well. AT: 01:00:25 As, as we wrap up, is there anything else that you' ; d like to add or that we might' ; ve missed? RY: 01:00:30 No. Well, you know, in the last, uh, 20 years, I' ; ve been more or less retired and I just have my grandkids helping them grow up. I was, I was, I don' ; t want you to say Playboy. I was involved with baseball and bowling and soccer. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been into for the last, while my grandkids are growing up. AT: 01:01:08 Well, thank you so much again, Rocky. RY: 01:01:10 All right, well. I, talk about, first time I' ; ve talked about all of this, my life. AT: 01:01:19 I really appreciate you coming in and doing this. RY: 01:01:24 Well, hope you can use it then. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamanakaIwao20171008.xml YamanakaIwao20171008.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Yamanaka, Iwao Rocky (10/8/2017)
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
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Takada, Anna
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Yamamoto, Rulie
OHMS Object Text
5.4 8/31/2017 Yamamoto, Rulie (8/31/2017) 0:31:07 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamamoto, Rulie Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/299744819 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/299744819?h=abd4782e40" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Anna Takada: 00:00 You can please state your name Rulie Yamamoto: 00:01 Uh, Rulie Yamamoto, formerly Kaneko. AT: 00:05 Okay. And, um, can you tell me a little bit about where, where you' ; re from, where you grew up? RY: 00:13 Oh, well, my dad had, my dad, mom had a farm in Brooks, Oregon, which is about 10 miles from Salem. And it was fun, growing up on the farm. Let' ; s see um AT: 00:29 What kind of farm was it? RY: 00:34 A vegetable. He most, he grew mostly onions, celery and lettuce and maybe yeah lettuce, but then he' ; d always win first prize at State Fair for his celery because they were so big. Every September he would win first prize, he was very proud. AT: 00:58 And had your parents come to the U.S.? RY: 01:02 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they' ; re the ones when we went to camp, dad, my dad is the one that, uh, rented, uh, LaSalle Mansion. So the Japanese would have a place to live and it turned out really well. Um, and then my brother, Hiroshi is the one that ran it. And we all lived there, very happy, I guess. AT: 01:30 Do you have other siblings? RY: 01:32 Yes. Uh, there was seven of us, three brothers and four girls. AT: 01:39 And can you tell me the names RY: 01:41 I' ; m the little, I' ; m the youngest, I' ; m the brat. AT: 01:42 Yeah, me too. RY: 01:46 But I had the most fun. AT: 01:52 And so can you tell me a little bit more about, um, your hometown? Where, where did you go to school with other Japanese Americans? RY: 02:04 Well, back home it' ; s, yes, I went to a grade school through first through eighth and then the war came. But there was, um, I guess my eighth grade graduation, there was four Japanese and four Caucasian. Very small, eighth grade. AT: 02:27 Wow. So it was half? RY: 02:29 Pardon me? AT: 02:30 It was half and half? RY: 02:31 Yeah uhuh. AT: 02:32 Okay. And um, growing up, did you, did you speak Japanese at home? RY: 02:39 My mother spoke to me in Japanese and I spoke broken Japanese to her, what we could understand each other, you know, I speak a little English and so, you know, it wasn' ; t difficult, but this nowadays you considered it, um, you know, inaka, which is countries, country type of Japanese. Cause they don' ; t use the words anymore. They changed the language, you know so. AT: 03:07 And where were your parents from in Japan? Were they farmers there too? RY: 03:12 Yamaguchi ken I guess my dad had property there. So was he, he went back in 1960 back to Japan because my mother had passed away. And he built, I guess he built himself a nice house with a American toilet cause which was nice. AT: 03:45 And so can you tell me a little bit about your life, um, before the war broke out, how old were you and what kind of activities were you doing? RY: 03:59 Well, the normal. Well, I left with, when the war started, I was 13. Um, went to just the regular everyday school. And then on Saturday' ; s I think we had Japanese school for maybe half a day. And then we were taught embroidery, dance, Japanese dance and other things. AT: 04:26 Was that also a small school or a small group? RY: 04:30 Yes, is, our community, I think when we evacuated was only a 143 Japanese. So it was a very small, small, small community. AT: 04:42 And do you remember the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed? What you were doing or anything like that? RY: 04:51 I remember, but I don' ; t recall, what I was doing, you know, maybe I didn' ; t, it didn' ; t quite sink in my head. Um, where was Hawaii, I don' ; t know. You know, when you' ; re 13, you barely know your Brooks. AT: 05:13 Do you remember your, your family or older siblings talking about it ever? Or was it just RY: 05:20 Not really, no, I don' ; t really remember them talking about it. AT: 05:26 And what about when, uh, Evacuation Orders went out? Do you remember? RY: 05:34 Like I, I wasn' ; t really into it as more or less does following, you know, what I was told to do and gather up what I needed and I was 13 out in the country. AT: 05:50 You' ; re, do you remember having any particular feelings about it at the time? RY: 06:05 Just kind of going before, not in the country. You' ; re just, you' ; re not. Like in a city, I think you' ; re more grown up. AT: 06:18 And so where, where was your family ordered to go? RY: 06:23 Well, we went to Tule Lake. Um, and then when it came to for that, yes or no, you' ; re going to pledge allegiance to America or Japan. Of course my father would say, of course, America. He says, I came here, you know, felt very strong. And during the night when they, the people that wanted to go back to Japan during the night, they would come and beat people up. You know, cause they know that you' ; re a yes, yes I want to stay, you know. So it was kind of scary. So it was kind of glad to get out of there, Tule Lake was pretty bad. I know our neighbor who was a reverend, he was beaten up. It was very close. AT: 07:27 Did you, did you just find out about it the next day or did it wake you up? RY: 07:32 No, we found out about the next day we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t hear anything even though the barracks are right next to us. AT: 07:43 That must have been really scary. Um, did your family have to go to an assembly center first? RY: 07:50 No. We didn' ; t, went directly to Tule Lake. It wasn' ; t a very long ride. Directly. AT: 08:01 How did you get there? RY: 08:03 On the train. First train ride. AT: 08:07 The first one? RY: 08:08 First train ride, it was kind of exciting. AT: 08:16 Do you remember anything else about that ride? RY: 08:19 No, I don' ; t. Uhuh. AT: 08:25 And how about when you first got to Tule Lake? RY: 08:27 Well, the first thing you see is those, the MP' ; s that were on this high place and with guns looking at us. And that was kind of scary. AT: 08:45 Was there anything else you noticed? The first or, or first impressions? RY: 08:52 Not really. No. No. I know that a room is it just one room with how many people? The brothers stayed with a bunch of boys, but we all stayed in one room. AT: 09:11 So just the girls and your parents? RY: 09:14 Yeah. I was wondering where my younger brother was, he' ; s probably in with us too. They went to freshman my freshman year in Tule Lake and had to walk many miles to, cause we lived at one end. The school was probably, I dunno how many blocks away, but it was far. And everyday it was a treat for me to eat donuts. So I would eat donuts coming home from school. Then I realized, ooh, gained a little weight. AT: 09:55 Who is providing the donuts? RY: 09:58 Who is buying? I, I was with my girlfriend. We were both eating donuts. It was funny, to gain weight, eating donuts. AT: 10:10 Even despite the walk. RY: 10:13 Didn' ; t help. Had to be longer walk. AT: 10:17 And um, so you mentioned your girlfriend. Did you know, did you have any friends who were also sent it to Tule Lake? Or did you know anyone going into RY: 10:29 I did, but we were in different parts of Tule Lake, so I don' ; t think I really saw them. So you just make new friends and so. AT: 10:43 And so you shared a room with part of your family? RY: 10:49 My parents, yeah. My parents. AT: 10:51 And the, the other boys slept RY: 10:53 The one boy. And then the older boy, I guess he was college age, so he stayed with his friends. So maybe four or five boys stayed together. AT: 11:09 And uh, how long was your family in Tule Lake? RY: 11:15 Not very long. I don' ; t think we were there, well, it was one year, my junior, I mean my freshman year or so, just say one year. But I made a lot of friends. I have a friend that' ; s older than I am and we still talk on the phone. And when I hear a song I think, oh, Kiko, Kiko Fuji of Seattle. And I go, I have to call her up and say, " ; Kiko I thought of you." ; AT: 11:51 And so how, how did it work that your family left early? RY: 11:56 Well, I, I really don' ; t know why my brother, they wanted to just get out of camp. So they went out Dorothy, Hiroshi. Yeah. They got a job through where? In Barrington, here. And as a house, I guess he took care of the yard and she helped in the kitch, in the house. And um, then dad told him to look for a apartment house for the Japanese so they could find someplace to live because you couldn' ; t find, you know, they wouldn' ; t rent to you. And that' ; s what he did. So that' ; s, after he fell, found the place, then we all came to Chicago everybody, so. AT: 12:42 Can you tell me more about this, this property that he got? RY: 12:50 Oh, that' ; s the one LaSalle Mansion on the LaSalle and Maple. And then he bought, my brother Roy, uh, uh, Excel Foods on Clark and Division. And then as he was, well, he was at the grocery store and then my father said, oh, these Japanese people, they need Japanese vegetables. So my dad went to look at Indiana, Indiana for a little farm and he found a farm and he grew the vegetables and every week he would in his little car, not car, it was what, what a little truck. And every weekend he would bring in the foods, uh the veggies to all the Japanese stores. And so they could, we could have you know, daikon and napa and all that, he was very, very helpful that way, I guess, yeah. Then then he started making tsukemono, you know, napa so they could sell this tsukemono in the store. Good guy, my father thought everything out very thoroughly. He knew what we needed, what everybody needed and so anyway. AT: 14:16 And so that the LaSalle Mansion, was that, he bought that property? RY: 14:26 I think he leased it. AT: 14:26 He leased it? And um, I know you were, you were very young at the time, but um, or so you must have been 15 by then? RY: 14:51 Uhuh AT: 14:51 So that' ; s where your family came to stay was there? RY: 14:54 Yeah. We all, yeah. AT: 14:57 Can you tell me a little bit more about the building itself? RY: 15:00 The building itself. Well, Dorothy, my brother Hiroshi' ; s wife, used to cook. I went to school. My sister Lily went to school, my brother, I think my brother Harry worked and then Roy was in the Service. And Hiroshi ran the building so. AT: 15:27 Which, which schools were you going to? RY: 15:31 I went to Wells, Wells High School. Ashland. I could hardly remem. I used to think it was so far, but now it' ; s not very far. AT: 15:44 And your siblings went to? RY: 15:47 Uh, my sister Lil, she graduated one year before prior to me. And that was, it did. AT: 15:56 And so how long was your family? Um, at the LaSalle Mansion? RY: 16:03 Well, from there we moved to Clark Street. Uh, he, I guess he, uh, what is it, not sold the building, but stopped being a landlord. And then we' ; d get a flat and lived together as a family. And that' ; s where my niece and nephew were born. It was fun. AT: 16:30 Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago, still been a pretty big change? RY: 16:42 I don' ; t know. I think Lake Michigan. Fascinating. But other than that, no. AT: 16:50 Did you go to the beach? RY: 16:52 Yeah, we used to go to the beach quite often. Yeah. Well, not by myself, but a bunch of friends, we used to go to the beach. And we used to go swimming. AT: 17:12 Did you have any, um, friends from camp or know any of the families that also came to Chicago? RY: 17:20 Now what was that again? AT: 17:21 Did you know anyone who also resettled in Chicago? RY: 17:26 Uh, yeah, quite a few. In fact, um, uh, 10 of us got together last Monday and we were all teenagers and sat there and talked about old times and it was a lot of fun. Everybody got along well. AT: 17:53 What were some of the things that you were talking about? RY: 17:58 How well we looked. In the fact Nori, Nori is the one that was in the Ting-a-Lings with me, I was with her. Um, I don' ; t know. We just talked old times, laughed a lot. Everybody was in good humor. I' ; ve done this, we' ; ve done this, what the last probably three years, gotten together, you know. It was fun. AT: 18:34 Can you tell me more about those, those early days and in Chicago? You know, meeting people and the kinds of things you would do? RY: 18:46 Well, meeting people. I think we just more or less hung around the same people we knew. You know, what, we' ; d go to a Rib House right next to my brother' ; s Excel' ; s store. And a slab of ribs, actually one slab of ribs, was only like $3. And we could eat the whole thing by ourselves. Now I can' ; t. But then I, I' ; m amazed like, oh my goodness, you know, it was so good. And whoever made that sauce I sure would like the recipes. I don' ; t think anyways. And Ting-a-Lings was just around the corner to go for a hot fudge Sundays and they' ; d always give you a glass of water. That was so nice. AT: 19:48 So while we' ; re on the subject of Ting-a-Lings, um, I would love to hear, um, again, very honored to be in conversation with one of the members. But, um, can you tell me more about, um, I guess how that group formed? And maybe how you got involved, if you can recall? RY: 20:06 How that group formed? AT: 20:18 And how many members would you say there were? RY: 20:21 We probably had about 12 to 15. Uh, I have no idea how the group formed. AT: 20:36 Was it girls RY: 20:36 Well, no, excuse me, well, actually Nori and I would like to play basketball a lot. Maybe that' ; s how it formed. I have no idea. But the people in the group were more or less from Minidoka you know, but maybe that' ; s how it was formed. AT: 20:59 Anything think those girls knew each other before coming into Chicago? RY: 21:02 Probably most of them did well from camp, you know, so. AT: 21:06 And um, was this mostly girls from Wells High or from different? RY: 21:16 No, no, no. Probably Nori and I were the only ones from Wells. I don' ; t know, maybe from, Oregon and Washington? AT: 21:36 But was it mostly North Side? RY: 21:37 Well, yeah, it was. We were kind of, we liked the North Side that' ; s why. AT: 21:49 And what do you, what do you think the, I mean maybe if you didn' ; t know it then, um, when you look back, what do you think the, the purpose or the, the motivation for creating this group would have been? RY: 22:15 I don' ; t know. Just probably have fun as a group and getting along and we all got along really well. Um, yeah, it' ; s just probably companionship, friendship. Um, two of us, our own, I have two are alive. All good things have to end, you know. AT: 22:49 And you mentioned that, um, some of you played basketball, were there any other activities that? RY: 22:56 We used to always hold dances, a lot? Well, most of the groups, the girl groups did hold dances and so. Really now, I' ; m thinking did have to pay, I forgot. AT: 23:19 Do you remember where, where they were held there or who was invited? RY: 23:24 Well, it' ; s open to the, you know, all the other clubs there, you know, we all participated in each other' ; s dances, so it had to be, um, I can' ; t think of therefore where we, Olivet, the Olivet Institute with Abe Hagiwara. He was so sweet. That' ; s who it was. And there would always be a fight, somehow, not say who was fighting. AT: 24:02 What were some of the, some of the other groups that you remember. Were there boys or RY: 24:12 Oh yeah, the boys had basketball teams too, but I don' ; t remember the name except the Seattle Huskies because we knew most of the people on the team from Oregon and Washington so. AT: 24:32 And do you remember any kind of, um. So one of the things in my own experience in learning about resettlement was that, um, folks who are kind of, uh, discouraged from being in large groups, like in public or on the streets. You know, one of the stories I have from my grandfather that they wouldn' ; t want walk in groups larger than, than three, basically. RY: 25:09 Really? AT: 25:11 And I, yeah, I was just wondering if you had any experience with that or, or what your experience was like with RY: 25:15 Well, actually we hung around Clark and Division, so it' ; s mostly Japanese and so we never really gave it that much thought of anything scary, you know? AT: 25:33 And did you experience any kind of discrimination when you come to Chicago? RY: 25:43 No. At school, when I went to high school, I used to wear the wooden shoes, clogs and the people, the kids, the girls, they have never seen any things so strange. And they say, " ; What are those?" ; But no, I, most of, most of my friends in high school were hakujins. I never hung around Japanese in high school. It was Caucasian. AT: 26:21 Did you ever experience discrimination? Um, back in Oregon? RY: 26:27 No. No. AT: 26:34 And then can you tell me about, um, so how long was, how long were you in Chicago? RY: 26:43 Oh uh, from 1940, 44' ; 44' ; to 1960, I went to California. That' ; s it. AT: 26:58 Did you go with your family or alone? RY: 27:05 No, I was married and so we moved to California. I love California. AT: 27:11 Did you go to Los Angeles? RY: 27:16 Well, a Torrance. Well, first it was Gardena and then we moved to Torrance, which is Japanese populated, very. AT: 27:29 And um, how would you compare, uh, well, first I' ; ll ask if you, if you had to describe the resettlement community in Chicago, just the post war period. Um, in just a few words. How would you describe it? RY: 28:00 How would I describe it? I didn' ; t, I, to me it didn' ; t make, any, I don' ; t know, difference. I was there and we just did what we do naturally and never really gave it much thought, you know, that there was discrimination. Just you don' ; t look for it so. AT: 28:32 And when you look at the Japanese American community of Chicago versus say in LA or, or Torrance, how are they different or similar? RY: 28:47 They' ; re similar, a Japanese is Japanese no matter what. AT: 28:57 And um, do, do you have children? RY: 29:01 Yes, I have three and three, eight grandchildren, three great grandchildren. AT: 29:12 And if, if you could leave your family with any kind of message or, or legacy, what would you want that to be? RY: 29:20 What I want to say to them? Hmm. Let' ; s see, what else? Probably be yourself, be happy. I never gave it much thought. Now that you said it to me, I' ; ll have to think about it. Keep me up all night. AT: 30:01 You can, you can get back to me. It' ; s a, it' ; s a big, that' ; s a big question. RY: 30:12 I' ; m not, I don' ; t criticize my kids. I let them find out things for themselves. I don' ; t comment, you know. Oh you should do this or you should do that. I let them find out for themselves. AT: 30:33 And this as we wrap up, is there anything that I might' ; ve missed or that you' ; d want to add? RY: 30:42 No, this took me by surprise, so I hadn' ; t given it any thought. And at this moment, no. AT: 30:50 Well, you did a great job for just jumping in here and I, I appreciate you talking to me. RY: 30:56 I' ; m sorry I' ; m not too full of information. AT: 30:59 Thank you so much. RY: 31:00 I take life too easy, I think. AT: 31:03 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamamotoRulie20170831.xml YamamotoRulie20170831.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Kaneko
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Yamamoto, Rulie (8/31/2017)
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2017-08-31
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
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Takada, Anna
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Yamaji, Masao
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Interview Keyword
Nisei
Rohwer
South Side
Oakenwald Grammar School
Shakespeare Grammar School
Chicago Buddhist Church
Boy Scouts
Hyde Park High School
Lancers
Social Clubs
Olivet Institute
O.K. Grocery
Housing Discrimination
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/2/2018 Yamaji, Masao (10/2/2018) 1:37:30 JASC_US JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection US Untold Stories Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Illinois State Historical Records Advisory Board. Nisei Rohwer South Side Oakenwald Grammar School Shakespeare Grammar School Chicago Buddhist Church Boy Scouts Hyde Park High School Lancers Social Clubs Olivet Institute O.K. Grocery Housing Discrimination Yamaji, Masao Takada, Anna video 1:|16(7)|32(4)|43(16)|64(3)|81(8)|95(15)|102(12)|115(5)|130(15)|145(4)|176(6)|195(11)|208(4)|226(11)|239(12)|251(4)|268(8)|280(8)|292(4)|301(14)|308(12)|316(12)|328(2)|340(8)|353(10)|363(2)|375(10)|386(15)|393(4)|404(14)|416(6)|433(9)|445(5)|455(2)|467(17)|476(5)|490(11)|507(7)|524(4)|533(7)|544(3)|560(3)|568(8)|580(4)|588(12)|601(18)|620(9)|637(3)|647(8)|657(6)|671(15)|683(5)|694(11)|708(4)|718(13)|728(14)|748(10)|761(2)|772(8)|794(9)|813(10)|823(12)|835(3)|844(5)|855(9)|865(3)|885(8)|897(10)|921(6)|936(9)|951(3)|965(9)|978(8)|993(6)|1014(5)|1025(14)|1040(6)|1067(1)|1087(3)|1103(5)|1115(8)|1123(1)|1131(15)|1144(17)|1151(1)|1158(12)|1174(15)|1184(3)|1193(12)|1210(16)|1220(8)|1230(3)|1241(7)|1258(8)|1266(12)|1276(15)|1288(6) 0 https://vimeo.com/601366227/7f2c17e0a9 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/601366227?h=7f2c17e0a9" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; A nisei born in Los Angeles in 1935, Masao Yamaji was six years old when he, his parents, and three siblings were incarcerated at the Santa Anita racetrack and later sent by train to Rohwer, Arkansas. Too young to recall much from his pre-war life, Masao recalls living in horse stables and attending school on outdoor bleachers at Santa Anita and forging friendships at Rohwer that lasted throughout his life. His father departed Rohwer for Chicago in 1944, with the rest of the family following in 1945. In this interview, Masao shares memories of life on Chicago's South Side, where his father worked first at the Shotwell Candy Company before owning and operating the O.K. Grocery store. Of particular note are Masao's detailed descriptions of products sold in the family's grocery store, his experiences working in the family business, and his description of Japanese American young adult social life in the 1950s. He also discusses the changing racial dynamics in the neighborhood, prejudice he witnessed while serving in the military, and housing discrimination he and his wife experienced in Chicago in the 1960s. He closes the interview by expressing concerns about persistent racism and hate, and his hope that love and goodness will prevail. Anna Takada: This is an interview with Masao Yamaji as part of the Japanese American Service Committee and Chicago Japanese American Historical Society Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on October 2nd, 2018 at about 1:15 PM at the JASC in Chicago. Masao Yamaji is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Japanese American Service Committee. So to start, can you just state your full name? Masao Yamaji: My full name? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Masao Yamaji: Masao Yamaji. Anna Takada: And where and when were you born? Masao Yamaji: I was born in Los Angeles, California, March the 27th, 1935. I don' ; t know what... At home. Yeah, it was a mid, midwife. Anna Takada: And did you have siblings? Masao Yamaji: I had a, a brother and a sister. Brother is under me. And then the younger one was sister. Anna Takada: You' ; re the eldest? Masao Yamaji: I' ; m the oldest. I' ; m Nii-san. Yeah. Anna Takada: And can you tell me a little bit about your parents, what their names were and where they were originally from? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my dad was named Roy Yamaji, actually, Roy Sanji Yamaji. We have a crazy situation in my family where I have two brothers and we all have different, we all are named differently. It' ; s crazy, it' ; s a crazy story how it happened. [NOTE: " ; Sanji" ; and " ; Yamaji" ; are alternate forms of the same last name. The kanji character for mountain can be read as either " ; san" ; or " ; yama" ; .] Anna Takada: You mean your, your father' ; s family or your family? Masao Yamaji: My family. My brother, my brother. On my birth certificate I have Masao Thomas Yamaji Sanji. I have Sanji and Yamaji. And I, I, I' ; ve always lived by the name of Yamaji. My brother, my brother under me, Ken, he was born about three years after, bef-- after me and he took, and he anyway has the name of Sanji. He ma-- when he got married he used, he... I guess his name became Sanji when he entered the Air Force, he entered the Air Force. An-- Anna Takada: And you' ; re not sure how that happened, the two names? Masao Yamaji: I' ; m not sure whether he didn' ; t like the name Yamaji or what. But we grew, we all grew up Yamaji and after marriage, my two brothers have a different name. One' ; s Sanji and one' ; s Yamazi, he put a Z on the end of his name. I, I don' ; t know how that happened, but that' ; s, that' ; s what we' ; re living with now. Anna Takada: And do you know where your father was from, Roy? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, he was, I found out he' ; s, he was from Wakuba, Japan. Wakuba Japan, and so, so was my mom actually. They were from the same area. [NOTE: placename as confirmed by immigration records appears to be " ; Wabuka" ; village in Wakayama prefecture] Anna Takada: And what' ; s your mom' ; s name? Masao Yamaji: Kazu, Kazuko, Kazuko Yamaji. Anna Takada: And do you, do you know about how they met or how they ended up-- Masao Yamaji: It was an arranged marriage because the families I guess they knew each other in, in the old country, farming in Tacoma, Washington. Anna Takada: What kind of farm did they have? Masao Yamaji: I think was it a, was it tomatoes? Or some kind of, maybe some kind of fruit. I' ; m not sure what it was. Tomatoes or... I can' ; t remember. Anna Takada: Do you know what year they came to the U.S.? Masao Yamaji: Oh God, no. I, I don' ; t know that. I don' ; t know. I forgot. Anna Takada: And... Masao Yamaji: But he, my dad came with his dad. That' ; s right. They came here from... And he was the second son and the older brother stayed in Japan. And he came here with his dad. And then they, I don' ; t know, he was working in the maybe fishing, fishing industry in, near Seattle. Anna Takada: Do you have any ideas about why they came, why they decided to come to the U.S.? Masao Yamaji: I guess they, they were having a tough time. And so they, he was, they came out here and the older brother stayed in Japan and they were going to settle down and try to send money back, yeah. Anna Takada: And so, by the time you were born, was that on the farm that your family had? Masao Yamaji: Well, what happened was I, I found out my dad and my mom well they arranged, it was an arranged marriage. She was married, they married, and she was still in high school. They didn' ; t tell anyone. And... oh, God... Then they, after they told everyone that they were married, they, they left, they left together and went to California. And that' ; s where I was born. So I think that' ; s why they got married because my mom was pregnant and, and she had, they couldn' ; t yeah, she still had a year to go in high school, I guess. I' ; m not sure the whole story there either. We found out later on, my sister and her, her sons, they traveled to Japan and visited the old town and they had, they had a really great time there and found out a lot about the family. Anna Takada: So can you tell me a little bit more about your memories of growing up in L.A. and-- Masao Yamaji: You know, I don' ; t have many memories ' ; cause I know I started school there. I was in garte-- in kindergarten. I recall crying when it was time to go to school. I other than that, I don' ; t remember too much about my school days. You know, my mom had a bunch of photographs, but I, I can' ; t connect with what was going on in the photos. Anna Takada: What were the photographs of? Masao Yamaji: Oh, being held by the babysitter or pedaling on my bi-- on my tricycle, you know things like that. I guess we' ; d had a place to stay and some neigh--, neighbors. My dad ran a grocery store. He, he was running a, I think it was a grocery store in San Pedro, California, just close by. Anna Takada: Okay. And at that time, was that more of a, a city environment or more rural? Masao Yamaji: It was more of a city environment, yeah. So, my dad was working and my mom would just stay, stay at home taking care of me. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: But I don' ; t remember too much about the home life in, in L.A. Anna Takada: As far as kind of like home life within your family, what languages were, were being spoken? Masao Yamaji: Oh, it was Japane-- they talked Japanese. So I, until the age of five, I, I spoke Japanese too you know, when I was a kid. Anna Takada: Was that your first language then? Masao Yamaji: I guess so, yeah. But I' ; m sure my mom was talking to me in English. You know they didn' ; t, they didn' ; t want us to become Japanese. They wanted us to become American. You have to learn that, you know. You wanted, yeah, you had to talk English. Anna Takada: So, just for one second, sorry to interrupt this. I' ; m just going to move this light a little bit again. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, oh. Anna Takada: Background does not film. Masao Yamaji: Okay. Anna Takada: All right. Would you mind just looking at me? Okay. This seems to be better. Masao Yamaji: Okay. All right. Anna Takada: All right, sorry about this. Masao Yamaji: All right. Anna Takada: Okay. So back to, to family life. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, I don' ; t... Anna Takada: Were your, were your family, or were your parents religious at all? Masao Yamaji: They weren' ; t, yeah, I, I didn' ; t know anything about religion. They weren' ; t church going, but the family, well I know they were Buddhist. Anna Takada: Okay. Masao Yamaji: But they just didn' ; t, they didn' ; t go to church. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so you... Let' ; s see, you were six years old when the war broke out. Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: Do you have any memories of...? Masao Yamaji: Of the war breaking out? No. I don' ; t. Only what I' ; ve seen on, on the radio or whatever. I had no, I had no idea what that was. Anna Takada: And how about evacuation or when it was time for your family to leave? Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah, I, I remember the packing up, going to the Santa Anita racetrack. That' ; s where we were, we were taken. The stables. Anna Takada: So... Masao Yamaji: The army bed, the cots. Anna Takada: So would you, if you do have memories of, of this as a child do you, do you have any... Well, let me rephrase this question. Do you have memories of how you felt or kind of where you were at? Masao Yamaji: Well, I don' ; t. I, I, I don' ; t think I was scared. I had my parents with me and everything seemed to be calm. We were being fed. There were hundreds of other people that looked like everyone else. And I was just waiting in line. And yeah, I thought it was a routine. We went to school. Anna Takada: This is in Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: In the Santa Anita racetrack we went to school in the, on the, I guess it was the grandstand. And they had portioned, settled people, class here, class here. That was, that was the class. As a kid, I thought it was you know just part of, part of going to school. They fed us. Anna Takada: At that point did you have your younger siblings with you? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, we were all together. Just, just-- Anna Takada: Okay, the three of you, the three kids? Masao Yamaji: Yeah three of us. Anna Takada: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so how old would they have been? Or what was-- Masao Yamaji: Let' ; s see I was, well I was six, they were three... four years, four years younger. Six... Four... Six... Two? My God, he must have been two or three my brother. And then my sister was just, just one year older. Yeah, one or two years old. God. Anna Takada: And do you remember the, the space that you were in? Masao Yamaji: Just a space like sta-- little stables where the horses were housed? So we had the beds, the beds for all of us. Army, army blankets. I remember the blankets, the, the straw-filled mattresses and the beds, beds sinking into the black, I don' ; t know, tar or whatever the floor was, yeah. The smell of the straw and the whatever other odors there were in the stable. It was, it' ; s kind of weird. Anna Takada: And would you happen to remember if you had any con--, conversations with your parents about, you know like, did they explain where you were going or what' ; s going on? It was just kind of... Masao Yamaji: No, they never... I, no, other than I, later on when we were in the camps, my grandfather told, told us that, " ; Don' ; t worry, when Japan wins the war, we' ; ll get out of here. Get out of these camps." ; That' ; s all, that' ; s what we believed. That' ; s what I believed anyway. Anna Takada: And so you were there with your grandfather as well. Any other family besides your immediate family? Masao Yamaji: I think my aunt, I think my aunt, aunt and her family. I think she had only one, one or two, ' ; cause I have, there' ; s photographs of, of us. That was my, my mother' ; s brother' ; s family. Anna Takada: And, any other memories about Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: Oh, waiting in line for the meals. I think there was wait in shifts or one group was A group or B group or whatever. They had little, I think they had, we wore buttons to go into the mess hall and I can' ; t remember what we ate. God, I, I wonder if we had rice. We always needed rice. I can' ; t remember what, what we had. Anna Takada: And so do you have, do you know how long your family was in Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: I can' ; t remember. I know it' ; s, it' ; s on the records. It wasn' ; t that long. Yeah. Then they, we went to Arkansas. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a little bit more about-- Masao Yamaji: About... Anna Takada: --what happened to your family after Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: Oh, getting on the trains. Oh god, it was dingy, dark and dingy trains. And, and it was kind of scary on the train. They, they wouldn' ; t let us look out the window. All the shades were drawn, so it was really kinda dark. And, and just, I can' ; t believe we rode on that train to Arkansas, you know? I think about it. I don' ; t remember having to go to the washroom, or what, whatever the heck, I don' ; t know, where the heck did I go? Anna Takada: Yeah, it must have been a, quite a long trip. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, it must' ; ve been two or three days at least. Huh. Wow. My God. That must have been horrible for my parents with all the noise, people crowded, god. The luggage, you had to carry what you had. My God, man. I don' ; t know what the heck my, how my, how my folks did it, you know? My god. Anna Takada: Do you know how old they were at the time of all of this? Masao Yamaji: Oh God, my, my mom must have been 17 or 18 years. No, she was young. Maybe 18 years old? My dad was older. He was, he was at least 10 years older. Anna Takada: So from Santa Anita, your family took a train ride to Rohwer. What are some of your memories about Rohwer? Masao Yamaji: Oh, well, fooling around. Playing with the kids. Playing with friends that I made. In fact, I still have in Chicago, I have a couple of friends that I met in Rohwer when we were 7... 6, 7 years old. Met them in the schools. And then when we moved here, they moved in the same area you know on, on the North side. So I, so I think that' ; s fantastic I still have these friends from 70 years ago. (laughs) Anna Takada: And, so how did-- Masao Yamaji: In Rohwer, yeah, oh wow, man, oh, the mud you know? Muddy. At times muddy, god. Oh yeah, but at times, we kids, we fooled around and playing, making up stuff with things that we could find. We played with the sticks and throwing balls around. There were barracks, the barracks we would, one guy would be on one side and one kid goes to the other side of the barracks, and we tried to throw the balls over the roof. My God, we used to do some crazy, they would make things up, you know, make things like blow guns, finding pipe, rolling up newspaper or magazine covers, magazine pages. Rolling them up into a little dart and, and blowing it through a, the pipe, the lead pipe. If you could find something to put, to put in the front of the piece of paper you know so it could, it would stick like a dart. We made up all kinds of games. Played ball, baseball. Oh my God. When we used to go out of the camp, no, I, I don' ; t know why. There were no guards. All the guards had gone. The watch towers are there, but all the guards are gone. The fences, the barbwire was useless, you know, you could go right through the barbwire. And we did. We went, the kids went out roaming around in some, by the woods. There was a little stream, fooling around, making , making fishing poles, getting some string sticking on the end tie, and we would tie some bait or whatever, whatever we could get from the kitchen and throw it into the water and try to catch crayfish that would grab the, the bait and then we' ; d pull them up. We didn' ; t eat the crayfish, it' ; s, just caught them. Anna Takada: Did your, were your parents or were adults aware of the kids going out to play? Masao Yamaji: You know what? I don' ; t know. I don' ; t, I know we never told them we were, what we were doing, so my gosh, we were fooling around and there were, there was poisonous snakes, snakes around. I didn' ; t even worry about snakes or anything. We never got into any trouble. No, no accidents. We were lucky. Anna Takada: Yeah. And I imagine that there are a number of " ; city kids" ; who were...? Masao Yamaji: Oh, oh yeah. And they, well we, we had to go to schools, we did go to school and, and my god, the little, little chairs and little rectangular, rectangular tables we sat at. I just have good, good memories of school. They had Japanese schools you could go to after, after school. Some kids did that. Anna Takada: Did you ever have to go to Japanese school back in L.A. before the war? Masao Yamaji: Never. No, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t start, you know I had no idea what the heck I was. I don' ; t know if I was, if it was, my folks never talked about it. I, you know, when I think about it they didn' ; t talk about it or even when we got here, they never, they never talked about their feelings or what we, what they did, yeah. But camp, camp to me was running around and discovering things, you know? Anna Takada: As far as the, the living quarters-- Masao Yamaji: Oh living quarters... Anna Takada: --and the, the physical structures of Rohwer, how did that, what were they like or how did they compare to Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: Oh, okay. Well, it was more like a, a little residence the barracks had, it was divided up into one, two, three, four, I guess six maybe. And there was just rooms, bare rooms, army cots. They, we, they separated the area with ropes and rope hanging down to make like a little barrier. So we all, we all had our own bed. So it was kind of crowded because the people improvised to, to make it home, home-like. Anna Takada: What do, what do you mean? Or how would people... Masao Yamaji: Oh curtai-- trying to make curtains, you know. And, yeah otherwise it was the, the ro--, the rope and blankets tossed over the rope. Made little separations. Anna Takada: Little rooms? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah. Little rooms. Yeah. Anna Takada: Did your parents work in camp? Masao Yamaji: I think my dad had, he did something in the kitchen. I never, I never did see him working or anything. My mom just stayed and took care of the kids. Of course, my, I would be out with the, the boys fooling around after school. Of course, you had to tell my parents, you had to tell my mom what the heck I was, we were doing, or where were going. Just around the camp, you know. Because it' ; s separated into little blocks. So each block is like a little community separate from each other and the, the bathrooms and everything. Every camp has its own mess hall. Anna Takada: Do you remember any information about where your family was located or what your mess hall was or... Masao Yamaji: You know, April, my niece, found out she had a little floor plan of the whole, whole camp. And we were in block six and she had, she got information from the, I don' ; t know, I guess everything is recorded. And all the people that were in the camp and all the people that were, where they stayed, where they stayed in every one of the blocks. That was beautiful. She found that all out. And we, I know there was a laundry and my mom, my mom would take the clothes to get, to wash. And there was a girls' ; and boys' ; -- I mean woman' ; s and, and men' ; s side for toilets, baths. Early, my, I used to go, my mom, I went with my mom for to, to wash. And then later on I, I could go to the, they, they let me go and bathe with the, the other guys you know? Rather than going with her. And one time, I remember, one the older boys, the older boys, they had made something like this and they' ; d crawl over, and they' ; d crawl over to the woman' ; s side. And they had made a little hole in, in the floor and they could peek, peek down into the women' ; s washroom. And they' ; re all laughing and laughing. And I was scared I was going to fall. So I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t dare look, go down and look, I might fall over. The crazy thing is I could be down there, you know, and I thought about that. Anna Takada: What do you mean? Masao Yamaji: Well, I could have been down there bathing while they' ; re up there, look, maybe looking down. I mean don' ; t know what you could see ' ; cause I, but I, it was, that was what the younger, the older boys are doing. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: And I talked with a friend of mine, with my friend Ken, Kenny Hattori, and I was telling him this story about that and he says, " ; Yeah, we did the same thing, bunch of, bunch of boys. You' ; re kidding, you did that too?" ; I said, " ; That must be boys are boys, right?" ; Yeah, yeah, who else would do that? So, oh we did crazy, there was one time, this is the truth, I don' ; t know how in the world... We all, we all lined up maybe 20, 10, 15 guys. And we all held hands and one guy would stick his hand, his finger into the light socket, electrical light socket. Oh my god, so the jolt would go through and it would end, the first, the last guy would get to the... And I did that one time, and then I thought, " ; This is crazy" ; , they' ; re laughing and we were laughing. Think about it, we could have all died right there. Oh my god, I don' ; t believe we did such a thing, man. Anna Takada: Were you ever bored in camp? Sounds like you were up to a-- there were lots of activities and... Masao Yamaji: All kinds of stuff. Yeah, that' ; s true. You could go out and fool around, you know? Anna Takada: I know you mentioned that you don' ; t have a whole lot of memories of you know, before camp. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: But if you, if you had to think about it and I guess kind of compare maybe your family life or you know, as a child from before and then in camp, what were some of the... Masao Yamaji: The family life? Anna Takada: Mm-hmm. Masao Yamaji: God, it was the same, I guess. I can' ; t, my, my mom and dad I can' ; t believe you know I, they never seemed to be complaining. They never complained to us about anything. We all kinda went along with it, I, it' ; s hard to believe it, but we did. Yeah, we ordered, they ordered clothes from the Sears and Roebuck, you know we had... I, I don' ; t know where the heck the money came from. I don' ; t know what kind of cash we had. Anna Takada: Another question that just came to mind. Did you have, were you in Rohwer with any friends or you know pals that you had either made or known from Santa Anita? Masao Yamaji: No. No, I didn' ; t, I don' ; t think so. And all the people, yeah I, I made friends. I made friends in camp that are still my friends. There must, there' ; s quite a few, yeah. Well, in the early days anyway, because we all came to Chicago and it was a big community in, on the north side where we, where we were. That was ' ; 45. That was ' ; 45. My dad came here early. He came here in ' ; 44 to find you know, get resettled with the Resettlers. Anna Takada: Mhmm. So, before we, we get into some of your experiences in Chicago, is there anything else you want to share about any memories or... Masao Yamaji: Like camp life? Anna Takada: Yeah, about camp life. Masao Yamaji: Oh my gosh. Wow. well, the, the days were really I guess just short, I mean days were short, it was fast. It went by, as a child, I know we made things and I had my friends who, gosh, we, we, we made crazy things to play with you know. Army, army shell casings, big round, round I guess, bullets or projectiles were housed in these round things. They, they made things with them. Anna Takada: Why were those in camp, those types of things? Masao Yamaji: They must have been left over from some Army soldiers being there. I never saw any soldiers, like in the photos where they' ; re guarding, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t see any in, in Rohwer. Anna Takada: Did you see, do you remember seeing any non-Japanese folks? Masao Yamaji: I remember seeing non-Japanese. They were teaching, I think, or maybe the nurses. Other than that, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t see any non-Japanese. And I can' ; t remember seeing any black people. I thought, wow, I mean think of it. There' ; s all kinds of black people around there now, you know? We used to go out of the camp and visit a little grocery store in McGee. And we had just very little money, but we went there to buy, buy candy. Anna Takada: Was that with your family or with friends? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, with my friends, not with my family. They were all, they never went. If they went out of the camp, I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t know about it. Anna Takada: And how did that work? Were you just kind of leaving camp or was there an organized like get everyone on a truck type of? Masao Yamaji: No, no, no. We walked. Yeah, we walked. God, I don' ; t know where the heck it was, but I know that there was a grocery store. Anna Takada: Did you do that a few times or? Masao Yamaji: A few times. A few times to buy candy or pop or something, like I know that, wow. Anna Takada: Did locals have any kind of reactions toward you? Masao Yamaji: No. Never had any... No, never had any reaction. I didn' ; t feel it anyway. That only happened yeah later on when I came here. Yeah. Like I said, I can' ; t remember me seeing any black people, wow. Anna Takada: So I, I also wanted to make some time to talk about the, your recent trip. You had mentioned that you and your family had gone to the site of Rohwer. Your niece had organized a, a family trip. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: So, can you tell me more about that? Masao Yamaji: Oh gosh. Anna Takada: It was this past weekend. Is that right? Masao Yamaji: This past weekend, Saturday and, Saturday and Sunday. It was really fun. Really saw it kind of exhausting. And it was hot. It was warm down there. Luckily it didn' ; t rain. The people were friendly. Oh yeah, real nice. We went to the museum and the woman there, Kate, Katie, Kathy, or... She was so nice. My god, she working hard. She said she' ; d been working there since, since the museum started or something a while back. She was born down there. And then we met the Consul General, a guy named Kobayashi, Consul General. He was from Nashville, something like that. He was there looking at the museum. Anna Takada: And so how was that... Can you tell me more about you know, how and why your family organized that trip? Masao Yamaji: My niece, A-April, she attended when we went, when I went to the reunion, all camps reunion at JASC. You, that' ; s where I met you. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: Wow. She was interested in that, she started, I, I would like to go. She brought her camera, she brought all kinds of stuff and she wanted to take, take the information and she wanted to know what was going on. That' ; s when she became interested in the, the whole, the whole project. And I guess she, she went online and found out all kinds... And she called down, down to Rohwer. And then she met a, a gal who, whose mother was former mayor of McGee. So they, they, she became, in touch, she got in touch with this girl, Rosalie, I can' ; t remember what her last name was, we went to her house. Anna Takada: And who in your family was on this trip? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my family? Oh, my daughter and her two sons. One, one daughter. Anna Takada: I, I guess the, the group, who was in the group? Was it all family or... Masao Yamaji: No, no all fami-- not all family. But another, another former internee, Kenny Hattori, his, his wife, Nobuko and their daughter. Anna Takada: And you said Kenny was in camp? Masao Yamaji: Ken, Kenny Hattori was in camp. And another friend of mine, Raymond Ishino, was in that camp too. And he' ; s, he' ; s over at Heiwa. He' ; s a resident of Heiwa. So, then who else is there? Hiko, a guy named Hiko Hattori, Kenny' ; s brother Hiko and his daughter. Really fantastic. Anna Takada: What-- Oh sorry, what was that like for you to go back up there? Masao Yamaji: Oh God. It was interesting. It' ; s, it' ; s nice down there. Very warm. It' ; s, I can' ; t believe that, you know they, what, what hardships they must have had I-- Gosh, man, it' ; s a swamp there, you know? It' ; s really muddy, and god... Wow... All farmland now. Wow god, makes you, makes you amazed that they, they lived through it so yeah, my god wow... Anna Takada: Who are you, who are you referring to that they, when you say that " ; they lived through it" ; ? Because you were... Masao Yamaji: My folks, oh, I think my folks and the, all the elders, you know? Wow, god. They could, and the government could do that, you know? Wow. And nobody there knew what was going on. That' ; s hard to believe, right? All the residents. ' ; Cause Mrs. Rosalie, she said she didn' ; t know anything about it, but she became interested in it because she, she always liked Japanese art and she collected Japanese art. And then she heard about the, the camp and the, then she started collecting artwork from, from residents of Rohwer. Anna Takada: Did anything else surprise you on this trip? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my god what surprised me, man... I, that, that my, you know, my folks hardly, hardly talk about the camp, you know? What, what happened to them. I learned a lot about, I learned a lot in just going there, wow, man... Oh, and it' ; s sad. The, the fact that you know other people didn' ; t know, didn' ; t know a thing about it, you know? Wow. How could that be? That' ; s surprising. Huge place. And I hear that, that in Germany, the Nazi death camps, people supposedly didn' ; t know it was there. I, that' ; s hard to believe too. Anna Takada: So with the time left, like I mentioned, we' ; re interested in hearing from folks about their experiences moving to Chicago. So you mentioned that your father left early... Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: --for Chicago. So can you tell me more about kind of that, that story and how you guys ended up getting to leave camp to move to Chicago? Masao Yamaji: You know I, I know that he left early, and my, all I know is my mom' ; s telling me that, that my dad is here setting up a place to stay and, and get a job and then he' ; ll be sending for us. That was, that was all I, all I knew. Anna Takada: How old were you by that time? Masao Yamaji: So I was by that time, nine, eight, eight/nine, nine, nine years old yeah. Yeah I was nine when he came here. Anna Takada: That was 1944 then? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: And, so when he... Do you know anything about his, his job in Chicago? Masao Yamaji: He had a job, Shotwell Candy Company. Anna Takada: Shotwell? Masao Yamaji: Shotwell Candy Company. That' ; s what I remember. I think he worked at night. Anna Takada: How long was he gone before sending for the rest of you? Masao Yamaji: I' ; m not sure. All I know is he left. We left in like March or so of 1945. We, we were here before the war ended. Yeah, we heard about the bombing, the bombing when we were on the south side. Anna Takada: So your father, your father came early and then sent for you all. Did he come back to the camp to travel with you? Masao Yamaji: No, he didn' ; t. We came alone, yeah we came without him, yeah. Anna Takada: And did you, if you remember, did you go with anyone else or was it just your family? Masao Yamaji: I can' ; t, I can' ; t remember who else came with, came with us. I think it was just our family. I, I don' ; t remember, I don' ; t remember these, coming here, you know? I don' ; t remember... God, I must have been, so I must have been, we must have been so happy, my god. But yeah, when we got here it was very scary. I really was scared seeing all the, the cars and oh god, it' ; s such a new place, you know? The big buildings right on 3985 South Drexel, my god... Anna Takada: So you, your family went to the south side? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, I went Oakenwald Grammar School and then, in 1947, that was in fifth grade, so, in 1947 we moved to a little farther to 43rd and Greenwood. And, and then I went to Shakespeare, Shakespeare Grammar School. So we stayed there till I was in high school. My dad bought a... He saved money, bought a store on 43rd and Drexel. Anna Takada: What kind of store? Masao Yamaji: Grocery store. Oh, he, he had meat, yeah he, a butcher. He had fish, fish. He had everything. A little tiny store. We all worked there. Anna Takada: Did he have any like Japanese produce or products? Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. Yeah. He had a lot of Japanese food ' ; cause all the Japanese were in the, in the area. Anna Takada: Do you know the, the year that would' ; ve been that he opened that or started the business? Masao Yamaji: Oh, he opened the store around 1950, ' ; 51 or something like that. I, I graduated grammar school in 1949. And when I was high school, I was, yeah, so maybe when I was a sophomore, maybe my second year he, he bought the store. Anna Takada: What was it called? Masao Yamaji: O.K. Grocery. Oh, it was, we he bought it from a former Japanese family called Okamoto. That' ; s why the old O.K. comes from, but that' ; s a good name, O.K. So my dad just left it O.K. And he stayed there until, gosh, 19, 1960, something like that, in the ' ; 60s. The neighborhood started to change, you know in 19, in the ' ; 50s, ' ; 51, ' ; 52. Anna Takada: In what ways? Masao Yamaji: The, the white people were moving out and the Black, Black people moved, started to move in. It was all, all white when we, when the Japanese were, well happened to you know, move in 1940, ' ; 45. Anna Takada: What neighborhood was that considered at the time? Masao Yamaji: Oakland, Kenwood. It' ; s the Oakland Kenwood neighborhood. And I saw, I saw the neighborhood go from all white to Black. And of course there was fighting. Of course, the Japanese, when we first came there were subject to getting into fights and call, name calling. So... You know, Japs. Japs. And then the older, the older guys and my, the guys that I knew they would be fighting. Yeah. Anna Takada: So this was when you were still in middle school or elementary school age? Masao Yamaji: I was, yeah, I was in, so I' ; m in, yeah, 10, 11, fifth, you know sixth, sixth grade, fifth/sixth grade. But we, in our group, I, I' ; m sure you know, even though we might have been subject to racial taunts and stuff, we, that' ; s why we all formed groups of guys and we all stuck together. The force in numbers. Anna Takada: And so if you can help me kind of get a clear picture of sort of what it was like at this time really? So like soon after you arrived to Chicago and for the next couple of years. There were other Japanese American families moving in? Masao Yamaji: Oh. Yes. Anna Takada: Is that right? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Hundreds. Hundreds. All over the South Side from... All south-- All east of Cottage Grove. Cottage Grove was like the dividing line. The whites, whites were on the East Side and, of Cottage Grove and Blacks were on the West Side. So I guess then-- Anna Takada: And so where were, where was your family? Masao Yamaji: We, we were, we were moved, we were on the white side, on, on the East side. Yeah. There weren' ; t any, there were very few Blacks in the schools that we went to at that time, ' ; 40, ' ; 45. I can, I recall the first, first Black guy that moved into our class in Shakespeare. That' ; d be, what was that? Well, sixth grade? Sixth grade. Sixth, seventh grade. And that was, that was quite a happening for the one Black guy in the school, you know? There was a lot of Japanese in the school, and most, and other than that, there were a lot of Jews. So Jews. Jews and Japs. Anna Takada: Did you personally experience discrimination or you know, issues with other kids? Non-Japanese kids? Masao Yamaji: Oh, you know, not in school. Maybe on the street, maybe being called names or whatnot, but I never was gonna retaliate with any force. Yeah. Anna Takada: And you mentioned the, the young, young boys kind of grouping together. Masao Yamaji: Yes. We all grouped together. Anna Takada: At what age did that start, and... Masao Yamaji: Oh, that started when we were 13, 14 years old. Boy Scouts. My, my mom and dad worried about us. So did the other parents. And they made, they made us go to church. So we, we went to the Buddhist church, a lot of us went to a Buddhist church just to get it, keep... They had a Boy Scout troop. Anna Takada: And so was this now BTC, but then it was Chicago Buddhist Church? Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: Is that the one? Masao Yamaji: It was Chicago Buddhist Church on the South Side. Reverend Kubose. Yeah. And th-they made us go there to, to probably keep us out of trouble, worried. Anna Takada: And so did you have any other activities besides school, church, and Boy Scouts? Masao Yamaji: Oh, well... Anna Takada: Did you have to go to Japanese school? Masao Yamaji: No, we didn' ; t have to. I never did go to Japanese school. There was a Japanese school at, at the church. I never, I never did. Well, I played ball. We played ball. We got together and we' ; d, we' ; d go across the IC tracks on 43rd and go to the park. And that was like our domain, playing ball in the, in the park. Either football or baseball or we could easily go farther east and the water' ; s there, we' ; d go swimming off, off the rocks and we had inner tubes. Everyone would carry the inner tube and we' ; d paddle out to the water, we were crazy. Just, " ; Come back! You' ; re too far, too far away." ; Yeah, we, we would go diving into the water and, and collecting rocks, make a, make a platform, get all the rocks that we could find and make a platform so we could stand out there and, a bit with our head above the water. That was playing around. Anna Takada: Was that in the lake? Masao Yamaji: Playing around in the lake now. No swimming places. Yeah. Other than that, we didn' ; t get into any trouble. We played ball until, in the summer, you know, played ball until it was dark. We all lived close by, so we all lived in that area close by. Anna Takada: And so during this time, you mentioned your dad opened the O.K. Grocery in ' ; 50 or ' ; 51. Masao Yamaji: Oh yes. Anna Takada: So closer to when you were in high school. Was he at the candy company? Masao Yamaji: No. Anna Takada: The whole time until then, or? What kind of work? Masao Yamaji: As far as I know he was. Anna Takada: And do you know what kind of work he was actually doing at the candy company? Masao Yamaji: I have no... No, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know what he did there. I don' ; t know how much money he was, he was able to save because he bought the, he bought the store, which of course, surprised the heck out of everyone. It surprised me. What? But it, it cut down. I had to, I was working now and I went into high school and I couldn' ; t do anything. I wanted to play ball. I wanted to go on the swimming, try swimming. I wanted to try football. I tried out for football. Anna Takada: And which high school did you go to? Masao Yamaji: Hyde Park High School. Whole bunch of Japanese were there with me. Anna Takada: But you couldn' ; t do these activities because you needed to-- Masao Yamaji: Oh, because I, I started working. I had to help my dad. Anna Takada: What, what kind of work were you doing in the grocery store? Masao Yamaji: Oh, selling. You know, in those days there wasn' ; t-- Anna Takada: Register... Masao Yamaji: Yeah, the register, right. Old cranking, crank register. Oh God, that was a great, great little place. And it was a story where you know, it wasn' ; t self-serve. You ran around and put things in a bag. Yeah. Anna Takada: Yeah. Can you, do you have a pretty clear memory of what it actually looked like or how the store was organized? Like what, what size grocery store was it? Masao Yamaji: Oh my God. It was tiny. Considering a store. They had, he had fruits and vegetables. He had, well, little, little Japanese bamboo crates. Bowls with maybe takuan in it and tsukemono you know, napa tsukemono and stuff. All, all in little with a glass cover, you know? And so people, the strangers would like, the little Black kids would come in and hold their nose, " ; It stinks in here." ; It was the takuan and what, a fish. We had fish. Oh, it was great, great smells right to us. Yeah. And tofu. Tofu was in an aluminum can. And you' ; d, you' ; d dip your hand in there to put the cover, put it in, then put the... yeah. It wasn' ; t in a... nothing was packaged. Anna Takada: And so that was your job to get people the-- Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. I used to get all that. We, we served them, we served the customer. Cut up, they wanted one, somebody would want a couple slices of bologna, we' ; d slice it. What? Wrap it, weigh it, wrap it. I can' ; t imagine. Anna Takada: So you had produce and then a counter for meats maybe. Masao Yamaji: Produce. Mm-hmm. We had meats, fish. My dad would do the, he butchered and he sliced up like maguro, the big tuna. Big tuna was shipped, I don' ; t know from where, from California. He would cut up the tuna, I can' ; t imagine how he did that. And then he would go, you know 5 o' ; clock in the morning, he goes, he goes out to the market to buy fruit and vegetable. Then he comes back with that. And then loads of... Like somebody would bring in a big beef, beef carcass and butchers would bring it in. Wow, god. Slap it on the table, cutting board. And he cut that up. And I, I don' ; t know where the heck he learned how to do all that, but we didn' ; t think anything of it, you know? Wow. And everything was fresh shipped from California. Huge, huge abalone or, or salmon, all kinds of salmon. Not, not in a, it wasn' ; t frozen. It was all fresh California. Man. Anna Takada: Sounds like he must not have had a whole lot of free time, you know, to run this business, there are lots of-- Masao Yamaji: No, he didn' ; t have much free time. And yeah, he got home at 8, 8:00 or 9:00, closed the store up. We only lived around the block, so it was really short. Then he had, then he had a truck for delivery and that, and I delivered. Anna Takada: Grocery goods to people' ; s homes? Or-- Masao Yamaji: Yeah, grocery goods to homes. Even for 43rd, the store is on 43rd street. Sometimes I' ; d go to 80th Street. It' ; s all on the South Side though. And, and I' ; d be delivering four or five hours, 100 pound sacks of rice. People would order a hundred pound sack. I don' ; t know how in the world I did it, carrying it into the house. Wow. I, I can' ; t even carry 50 pounds now! (laughs) Anna Takada: And I' ; m sorry, how, how were you getting around to, for these deliveries? Masao Yamaji: With a truck. Anna Takada: With a truck. Masao Yamaji: Panel truck. Green. Green. It was a green, I called it the Green Hornet. It was just regular panel truck, no seats in the back. Just-- Anna Takada: You said the Green... Masao Yamaji: Green Hornet. I called it a Green Hornet. Yeah. I called it, sometimes my brother would, little brother would help me. So he' ; d, he' ; d sit, he would sit in the back. There was no seats, just sitting on the floor. Anna Takada: And at this point in time, you were in high school and let' ; s see, how old would he... would he have been in high school yet by that time? Masao Yamaji: Nah, I was 17 or 18. Yeah. Yeah. 16, 17, 18. Yeah, I learned to drive at, at 17. Anna Takada: Was that common for kids in the city to learn to know how to drive and... Masao Yamaji: I think so, yeah if... Yeah. I know there weren' ; t that many, not very many Japanese had a car. Yeah. But it was pretty cool. We all learned, we all learned to drive. Anna Takada: And were, and in the grocery store, were there any dry goods, or? Masao Yamaji: Yes, there were dry goods. We had the you know the nori and oh god... Noodles. Yeah. Besides that, he had the regular pop, Pepsi Colas, Coca-Cola, all that. Anna Takada: As far as the, the Japanese products, do you know where he was getting those? Masao Yamaji: Japan Foods. That' ; s what I remember. Japan Foods. Anna Takada: Was that a distributor? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, big. Anna Takada: And was that in Chicago? Masao Yamaji: Big. And they' ; re still around. Yeah. Big distributor. Japan Foods. And I guess he dealt with I don' ; t... Some fish company that delivered the stuff from California. He used to send me to, to the north side, to Toguri' ; s, to pick up stuff, or there were quite a few Japanese stores on, on the South Side, three, four of them. Anna Takada: Can you remember, or do you remember their names or? Masao Yamaji: Oh my God. Anna Takada: Were there a lot of them? Masao Yamaji: I think there was one, Mr. Fuji. Fuji, Fuji Market. Oh God. Who else was there? There was Franklin, god there was a, Franklin Foods. Gee. There were others. Two, three others. I can' ; t remember them now. Wow. In fact, I would go there. We, we were all, we were all helping each other. If somebody needed something, I know my dad would. Yeah. Anna Takada: The other, with the other businesses you mean? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: And as far as clientele, was it mostly other Japanese Americans? Masao Yamaji: Yes. He had mostly Japanese people that, from camps. They were all settled around, they had all settled around the neighborhood. It' ; s quite interesting. We kind of... wow. Then everyone else started, all the white people started moving out and then the area changed to Black. Yeah. And they were nice too. A lot of Black people came into the store. They were, they were fine. They were moving out too with other Blacks. They didn' ; t like moving. So it wasn' ; t... oh God. It wasn' ; t pure Black there. It just where... oh, I don' ; t know. Anna Takada: Did young people, whoops, young people at that time, were they kind of intermingling at schools? Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. There was a group of guys around the neighborhood. They were called the Boys, Basement Boys. Anna Takada: Basement? Masao Yamaji: Basement Boys. That was they' ; re called, they were called. They were all white guys. Now I know they did a lot of fighting, but I don' ; t know, for some reason we became friends. We, we were friends with the Basement Boys, so we formed groups too, you know? There were, I was in a group called the Lancers, 20, there were 20 some odd guys in the group. Anna Takada: And the Lancers was this mostly a, a JA group? Masao Yamaji: All, all Japanese. There might, there might, there were a few, few white guys that became friendly. Anna Takada: And can you, can you tell me more about these groups? What, what, what was their prompt and their purpose? Masao Yamaji: Social, it was a social activities groups and, and sports too. They had, they formed, we all formed sports groups, football, baseball, and we played, maybe we played against each other. This is all, you know no, no league, just groups of guys playing against each other. Anna Takada: So you had kind of organized any sports event yourselves? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, we did. They organized it. And in fact, they used to, we used go and play Japanese guys on the, on the north side who are, who were doing the same thing. A group of guys. The girls did the same, girls, there were all kinds of girls groups. And then they would, one group would throw a dance and invite whoever to come. Anna Takada: What are some of the names of the groups, if you can remember? Masao Yamaji: God. Oh my God, I can' ; t remember now. The group above us that, that took care of us, they were called the Ro Babes. You remember them? Ro Babes? Yeah. They, we became like their little brothers. And God, they were, my God, who else is there? Vikings? They were the like, oh geez. Wish I could remember them all now. Anna Takada: Do you remember any of the girls groups? Masao Yamaji: Oh, my God. Dawnelles. Oh, there were many. So there' ; s hundreds of, I mean just, oh God. Colettes. Anna Takada: Were there any... Masao Yamaji: There' ; s, there' ; s many groups. Anna Takada: And were there, were there ever any like conflicts, or rivalries between the groups? Masao Yamaji: Conflicts between? Anna Takada: Or was it mostly a friendly kind of organizing? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, you' ; re right. There was no fighting. No fighting among the group other than sport. Anna Takada: Not games. Masao Yamaji: Maybe sport fighting. Yeah. But other than that, there was no fist fights and yeah, anger, no, unless it' ; s something happened at sports. Yeah. But no, we didn' ; t fight each other, other than some crazy fight in a sport, but... Anna Takada: As far as the Lancers, at what point did you join or help? Masao Yamaji: We all joined at high school age. In fact, if, if I found, if befriended someone and they wanted to join a group, well then we, we would initiate them into the group. We didn' ; t have any initiations and stuff like that. Just you became friends with everyone else. Anna Takada: And where, what were some of the places that folks were either playing sports or? Masao Yamaji: Oh, we used to go to, oh God, on... Olivet Institute on the North Side or from, there was, there was a Baptist church on the South Side. God, I can' ; t remember all those places. Mostly the Olivet Institute was a very, very big place. And the Northsiders would go there and, and the south, we came all the way up to the North Side to play at the Olivet Institute, which, which had a lot of leagues and-- girls and boys leagues. And they had people that were taking care of the youth. And it was nice. That was all from JA-- JAC-- JACL. Yeah. Anna Takada: Of course, as you know, in Chicago, there are a number of North Side--South Side rivalries, so to speak, Cubs-Sox, and... Masao Yamaji: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: So was there anything like that with the young people, sort of in those earlier years around the... late forties and fifties? Masao Yamaji: There might have been, maybe fighting, but we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t have any group that I, that I remember anyway. Anna Takada: So you, you mentioned, so at that time it must have been Resettlers Committee... Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: That was involved with Olivet Institute. Were there other...? Masao Yamaji: Mhmm. The guy named Abe Hagiwara? I remember him. Anna Takada: Can you tell me a bit about him? Who was he? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, oh, he, he set up so many groups. So much stuff for Japanese youth. Yeah, God. Anna Takada: Do you know what his position was or how he was involved? Masao Yamaji: I have no, I can' ; t remember. Anna Takada: Did you have a relationship with him? Masao Yamaji: No, I didn' ; t. Just, I knew him. Anna Takada: Just knew of him? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: What were some of the other Japanese American organizations or activities that were active at the time? You mentioned there was a lot happening at the Buddhist church, Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: --on the South Side. And you' ; ve mentioned Resettlers Committee. Were there other groups or... Masao Yamaji: I can' ; t remember any other, other, any other groups. Being in the Boy Scouts, I, I know we went to a lot of different churches but... Or to the cemetery, you know, 4th of July and stuff like, things like... some holiday... Anna Takada: With the Boy Scouts? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, with the Boy Scouts. Anna Takada: What would you do at the centers? Masao Yamaji: Just being there, I guess, in uniform and, yeah. Other than that, I can' ; t remember. Anna Takada: And so I think you said that, earlier that your father had O.K. Grocery for about 10 years? Masao Yamaji: I think so, yeah. Yeah he-- Anna Takada: And did your family stay on the South side or... Masao Yamaji: Yes. They preferred to stay on the South side. Now everyone was moving north. Anna Takada: Japanese families? Masao Yamaji: Yeah, Japanese families. A few, few Japanese families stayed on the South Side and they' ; re still you know, still there. But it was, it' ; s not that, so not a racial thing, but became tough, you know? Tough to... The neighborhoods are so scary, right? You don' ; t want to, you don' ; t want to contend with the fighting or whatever, man. So everyone, all the people moved north or west. Anna Takada: But your family stayed? Masao Yamaji: My family stayed. I, when I got married, I, I came north. My wife, my wife liked it on the North Side. She was a Northsider, so... Anna Takada: What year was that, that you got married? Masao Yamaji: 1960. Now, you know in 1960, I came north. We came north. We looked around Andersonville, right around on Berwyn and Clark. There were Japanese living there. And we, we went to one apartment and to look, and to look, and we were looking for apartment. And the, the custodian who showed us around says, he tells us, you know the owner doesn' ; t want any non-Japanese-- I mean non-white, no one. I was surprised. " ; Is that right?" ; " ; Yeah." ; He said, " ; I' ; m sorry." ; I said, " ; Okay" ; . Well, I' ; m telling him, " ; You know, there' ; s Japanese people living around here already." ; Said, " ; I don' ; t know. Okay, that' ; s all right." ; And we just left. But other places I called and they asked, this one lady asked, " ; What is--" ; no, " ; What is your name?" ; and I tell her my name. " ; Where were you born?" ; Where was I born? I said, I tell her, " ; I was born in California." ; " ; Where was your mother born?" ; She went through the whole thing. " ; Where was your father born?" ; I' ; d tell her " ; Wakuba, Japan." ; " ; I don' ; t think you' ; ll like this apartment." ; It' ; s like, I can' ; t believe you' ; re telling me that. All right, that' ; s fine. I don' ; t want to live there then, anyway. So that' ; s what happened in 1960s, not too long ago. That' ; s in the neighborhood where, gosh, you know Toguri' ; s used to be right there on Clark. That, I said, well, that' ; s Chicago. We find out, some, some person on the phone with an accent is telling me they don' ; t want non, non-whites. I said, okay, that' ; s fine. This is 1960. I think I called two or three places. And then we find, I finally call one on Rosemont and Ashland. And the lady says, " ; That' ; s okay." ; Says, " ; We' ; re Japanese." ; Anna Takada: Almost like she-- Masao Yamaji: I told her that I, I' ; m, I' ; m Japanese. " ; We' ; re Japanese." ; She says, " ; That' ; s fine. Come on, I' ; m Japanese." ; " ; Oh, great." ; Anna Takada: Almost like she knew that it could be a challenge for other Japanese to find housing. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. You know that happened to me two times when I was in the Army. Me and a, a black guy, went into, we had a, we were going to a, a base after leave. We went into a bar. It was in St. Louis, I think. Asked for beer, a couple beers, you know, and they wouldn' ; t serve blacks. My God. I get a beer and he, he can' ; t have a beer. Oh, my God. I said, okay, we' ; re just leaving. But that was 19-- That was 19-- when was that-- 1957. And we' ; re in uniform, mind you. Wow. And we went to, we were in Lawton, Oklahoma, which is clo--, right by Fort Sill. Went into Lawton, Oklahoma. We had a, a leave, a, a leave for, for the day. And me and this Black guy, we couldn' ; t, we couldn' ; t, he couldn' ; t go downstairs. He had to go upstairs at the balcony. " ; Are you kidding me?" ; " ; No, darn. I' ; m sorry. Only, only non-blacks, non-blacks can' ; t, only non-blacks go downstairs." ; And I told him, then I, well I said, " ; I' ; m not Black." ; I, so says, you' ; re not, you' ; re not white. I mean, you' ; re not, you' ; re black. In other words, I, I couldn' ; t go upstairs with him. I mean, I, I had to go downstairs, and he-- that was crazy. Lawton, Oklahoma. It was right outside of Fort Sill, Oklahoma. That was 1957. That' ; s what happened to me, man. It was wild. It was wild. That' ; s what happened all over, I guess, with, with people, restaurants and stuff. Anna Takada: So we have a, a few more minutes left, just briefly. So after, so you graduated from Hyde Park High? Masao Yamaji: Yes. Anna Takada: And, and what year was that? Masao Yamaji: That was 1953. Anna Takada: Okay. And then, so what did you do after you graduated? Masao Yamaji: I was working at my dad' ; s store. I, I went to Chicago Technical College, me and another guy, one of my friends, Jack Wakasa, and we were going to become draftsmen. So I went to school with him there. It was about a year, and I just, I didn' ; t like it. I said, no, I don' ; t think I' ; ll be a draftsman. He went on to become a draftsman. See, that ' ; 58. No wait-- that was ' ; 54 or ' ; 55. And I was working at the store, what else did I-- Anyway, I got drafted in ' ; 57. Yeah. Anna Takada: And how long did you serve? Masao Yamaji: I, so I went to the Army for two years, ' ; 57 to ' ; 59. And I fooled around a while. Went, oh I went to Navy Pier. Not Navy-- Yeah, Navy Pier had a university there. Anna Takada: Mhmm. Masao Yamaji: Yeah, I, I studied there. Oh God, what was I doing? I was going to study... Forgot what... It wasn' ; t drafting. I took an accounting class. Draft. Yeah, drafting... No, it wasn' ; t drafting. Art class. Couple classes. Anyway, I went there a year, a year. Then I came, yeah then I started helping my dad again. Anna Takada: Still at the grocery store? Masao Yamaji: Then, then I helped my dad at the grocery store. And then I got a call from the Army, from government. So I, I joined the Army. I was in the Army. Anna Takada: And when you, when you got back, that' ; s when you went to U of I at Navy Pier. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Anna Takada: And then you got married in 1960? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: Mhmm. And your wife, how did you know her? Where did you meet? Masao Yamaji: I had known her earlier. I mean, just by name. I didn' ; t, well, we saw each other at social functions. She was, she was friends with other, other, other people that I didn' ; t know, but I did meet her before. But we went bowling. My friend was going on a date with a girl to go bowling. And so he invited me, me and another guy. We, who was that? Jimmy, I think Jimmy. Anyway, Jimmy and me and George. George was going on the date. Well, we all, we tagged along with him. And then her sister was who I met, who we, who eventually we married. Gayle. And then that' ; s when I, I met, really met her going bowling at the Waveland Bowl. Anna Takada: And so just a, a couple of more questions before we wrap up. So you, you came to Chicago at a very young age, and you' ; ve been here since? Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Since 10 years old. Wow, man. Anna Takada: And when you think about, I guess, the, the Japanese American community of Chicago over time, in, in how, how has it changed, I guess? Masao Yamaji: Oh, well, you know, when we first got here, we all kind of were, were tight, clan, and we saw more of each other, I think. And then now everyone has spread out, just, just going, you know? They don' ; t just stick around. And I always think it' ; s fantastic how it' ; s too bad we didn' ; t all stick together. But it' ; s fantastic what they' ; ve done and well, I' ; m, I' ; m really proud of the Japanese people. Asians are, Asians are really amazing you know? Yeah I, I look at, I look at my friends and how well they' ; ve done, how well they' ; ve done, and then the offspring, their kids are just amazing. Wow right? Wow. We don' ; t have to worry. We don' ; t have to worry. They' ; ll take, they' ; ll take care of us. Anna Takada: Another thing I wanted to ask you about, you mentioned a couple of anecdotes about racism experienced by yourself, your family, and friends. Masao Yamaji: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anna Takada: And I' ; m, I' ; m just wondering if you have any thoughts about, I guess-- again, this is kind of a, a then and now type question. But given some of the current political issues-- Masao Yamaji: Oh yeah. Oh my God-- Anna Takada: Just some of the different things that have been happening in recent years. As someone who has come from a background, you know your family was incarcerated essentially for being Japanese. Masao Yamaji: Right. Anna Takada: So do you have any, any thoughts or reflections? Masao Yamaji: Oh, I, it scares me to think, it scares me to think all these, all these people, all kinds of people think like our president thinks. Wow, how can they be that way? But it' ; s all, I guess it' ; s always been that way, and then it seems like it' ; s never going to change. And it' ; s just like, nothing has changed in all these years, you know? The racial problems. When we went to Martin Luther King' ; s memorial and think about he was shot--wow my God-- by some goof. And then he, the way he thinks, there' ; s many people still thinking the same way. Nothing has changed in all these years. I don' ; t know what it takes to, for people to wake up. My God. And it seems like it' ; s happening all over the world now, doesn' ; t it? God, what the heck is going on? I don' ; t know how you change it. Man. Anna Takada: One question I like to ask people on sort of the, the last note of this conversation is if you could share or pass down any kind of message or legacy with your children, your grandchildren, what' ; s something that you' ; d really want to, to leave with them? Masao Yamaji: Oh. Oh my God. I guess it' ; s, all we need is more love. Just love each other. God. Oh man. There' ; s so much hate, you know? It' ; s easy, it' ; s easy to hate, man. You don' ; t, we don' ; t know anybody until we meet them, right? Man, there' ; s so many nice people. There' ; s so many good people around. That, that makes you, and it kind of encourages you to think, wow, it' ; ll be all right. Those people are, are here. So I hope. Yeah. I hope it' ; s going to be a better place. It sure doesn' ; t seem-- it' ; s going to be a hell of a job to make it better or keep it better. Because there are good things going on, right? Yeah, I think so. Because I go, you know everyday you meet so many beautiful people. Yeah. I hope it keeps going that way, but I don' ; t know. We gotta, we have to get rid of this Mr. Trump, but there' ; s all kinds of other Trumps. Wow. That' ; s what' ; s scary. Anna Takada: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and-- Masao Yamaji: Oh, yeah, you' ; re welcome. You' ; re welcome. I didn' ; t think I was going to do anything. I said, well, I don' ; t, what am I doing here, you know? Anna Takada: Well, and are, are there any, do you have any last thoughts or anything that I might' ; ve missed in the conversation that you' ; d like to share? Masao Yamaji: Oh, god no I... No. Yeah, you' ; ve been fine. I' ; ve enjoyed it. Anna Takada: Good. Yeah. Thank you again for taking the time. Masao Yamaji: Oh, you' ; re welcome. Yeah, thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Footage may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamajiMasao20181002.xml YamajiMasao20181002.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/items/browse?tags=Series%3A+Untold+Stories
Alternate Form of Name
Yamazi
Sanji
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9100
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Title
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Yamaji, Masao (10/2/2018)
Description
An account of the resource
A nisei born in Los Angeles in 1935, Masao Yamaji was six years old when he, his parents, and three siblings were incarcerated at the Santa Anita racetrack and later sent by train to Rohwer, Arkansas. Too young to recall much from his pre-war life, Masao recalls living in horse stables and attending school on outdoor bleachers at Santa Anita and forging friendships at Rohwer that lasted throughout his life. His father departed Rohwer for Chicago in 1944, with the rest of the family following in 1945. In this interview, Masao shares memories of life on Chicago's South Side, where his father worked first at the Shotwell Candy Company before owning and operating the O.K. Grocery store. Of particular note are Masao's detailed descriptions of products sold in the family's grocery store, his experiences working in the family business, and his description of Japanese American young adult social life in the 1950s. He also discusses the changing racial dynamics in the neighborhood, prejudice he witnessed while serving in the military, and housing discrimination he and his wife experienced in Chicago in the 1960s. He closes the interview by expressing concerns about persistent racism and hate, and his hope that love and goodness will prevail.
Date
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2018-10-02
Format
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video
ISHRAB
Series: Untold Stories
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https://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/files/original/9bb8407a46946fd7324b2f5d7f48b196.jpg
200647f0fb73366b33893ca171f9c33c
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Title
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Japanese Americans--History.
Description
An account of the resource
This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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This material is based upon work assisted by a grant from the U.S. Department of the
Interior, National Park Service. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations
expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973,
and the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, as amended, the U.S. Department of the Interior
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federally funded assisted projects. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any
program, activity, or facility as described above, or if you desire further information, please
write to:
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Creator
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Publisher
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Foreman, Julie
Takada, Anna
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yamaguchi, Mari
OHMS Object Text
5.4 9/13/2017 Yamaguchi, Mari (9/13/2017) 0:52:16 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamaguchi, Mari Foreman, Julie Takada, Anna video 0 https://vimeo.com/307589735 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307589735?h=af451d05e6" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Julie Foreman: 00:00 What is your full name? Mari YamaguchJF: 00:03 Full name, meaning? We- Japanese have no middle name. JF: 00:06 Right. MY: 00:07 So Mari Yamaguchi is full name. Except, uh, I put down my maiden name because I am known with a maiden name because of my brother' ; s death. JF: 00:20 And what, what' ; s your maiden name? MY: 00:22 Miyano. JF: 00:22 Mi-ya-no? MY: 00:22 Mi-ya-no, which is unusual, very unusual. JF: 00:28 Yeah. MY: 00:31 Miyano. JF: 00:31 And was there a special reason? Now, Mari, is there a meaning in Japanese? Um, like special reason that they chose Mari? MY: 00:42 Well, I think my family had uh, rules. I think if it' ; s a girl, it' ; s a mother, if it' ; s a boy, it' ; s a mother- father who names them. So I probably have about three other names as a candidate, but Mari was my name and my sister was- JF: 00:59 So your mother would choose that, yeah? MY: 01:00 My sister was Yuri. JF: 01:02 Now does it mean anything, does it? No? MY: 01:07 If you take each character, " ; ma" ; means, 10,000, " ; ri" ; means uh, distance. But it doesn' ; t mean that I don' ; t think, because the same name Mari can be written 20, 20, 30 different ways. JF: 01:28 And you were born in Japan, uh, what city, were you born? MY: 01:34 I was born when my father was uh, recovering from illness, just west of, west of Tokyo. Right below Mount Fuji. And I went back to Kamakura. I think I was maybe about less than a year old because my father recovered. So we went back to... Kamakura is about, by train about, in my days, by train about 40 minutes from south of Tokyo. It' ; s a well known, oh I think President Obama went to the Kamakura City with a big lodge. JF: 02:16 Uh huh, okay. And so you were born there but then you moved to Tokyo and... MY: 02:21 Area. JF: 02:22 Tokyo area. So like a suburb of Tokyo? What they call a suburb...? MY: 02:24 It' ; s a, yeah, it' ; s not a, it' ; s not the same prefecture either. It' ; s a beach town. Very close to the beach along the Sagami Bay. And it' ; s well known for the history as well as beach. JF: 02:42 Oh, okay. And so growing up, uh, what languages did you speak? Did you just speak Japanese as a kid? MY: 02:52 Japanese only. JF: 02:54 Um, and did you learn other languages? Could you? MY: 02:58 It' ; s required to pick up English. My mother would have be, she would be hundred s-, she would be hundred something years old. But when English was required subject, if you went into the seventh grade and if you go to college, you have to pick up one more language like Spanish or French or German. I don' ; t know what it is now, but in my days you could pick up German, French and English, and uh Spanish is relatively new. JF: 03:41 Now did you learn English then, uh at school? MY: 03:45 Yeah, in school. JF: 03:48 And um, so you went to school in Tokyo? MY: 03:53 I went to a middle school in Yokohama and college in Tokyo. JF: 03:57 In Tokyo. And um, was it unusual for women to go to college? Now, ' ; cause what year were you born? That would kind of give us a perspective. MY: 04:10 1927. JF: 04:12 Yeah, 1927. So was it unusual for women to go to college in 1927? MY: 04:20 To some families, I think it is. It' ; s not my family. We, we grew up, men and women, men and women are the same. So, uh, I do know my father' ; s brother made opposition. He did not think I should go to college, but I had no problem, my family. JF: 04:43 And what did you study in college? New Speaker: 04:45 I wanted to study history. JF: 04:47 History. Uh, a certain kind? A certain, American, Japanese history, what? MY: 04:52 No uh, the school I, college, I went how they study history was simultaneously Japan, Orient, and Western. Those three, same time. So because of the war, the school was bombed, so I had to leave. So we just started ancient period. JF: 05:18 I see. Um, so you were studying, what would they call it- like comparative literature is what we would call it in literature. So it was comparative history. And you, you got a bachelor' ; s degree? MY: 05:33 No, that' ; s, that' ; s what I was saying. We had, I had to stop after a year and half because it was 1944. I had to leave because I was commuting from Kamakura to Tokyo and my, my parents said there' ; s no need for you to risk your life just going to college. So, I think few months afterwards, a few months after I left the college, the college building was bombed I think. That, I think Anna' ; s grandmother can probably say lot more clearly what exactly what date because she had to leave, uh, something like in May of 1945. I left in uh, September of 1944. JF: 06:20 So you left Japan and you came here? MY: 06:22 No. JF: 06:23 Where did you-? MY: 06:25 I left the college in 1944, back to my home in Kamakura. And uh Kamakura was not bombed yet. I don' ; t think it ever was bombed because it' ; s right on the shore and all the hundreds of B-29 went to bomb Tokyo or Yokohama, Kawasaki or all those large cities. But I left Kamakura in uh, 1945, end of April, 1945 is when war was over. But uh, Kamakura was quite difficult to make living because people that was bombed out in other cities, as mentioned, were just pouring into Kamakura. We did not have any food to feed all these people. So my, my mother talked to my father who was assigned to Hiroshima, uh, giving a loan. JF: 07:28 What, what did your father do? What was his occupation? MY: 07:31 My father is a naval officer. JF: 07:34 He was a naval officer. MY: 07:35 And, uh, he said that Hiroshima was not bombed yet and we still have some food to purchase in the black market. So my mother decided finally- my mother always lived alone ; raised us with a maid and things like that- but she decided to move us. So that was close to May, three months before the war was over. So all of us packed up and with just two suitcase moved from Kamakura to Hiroshima. JF: 08:09 So you moved to Hiroshima? MY: 08:09 And I remember we had to stop in a tunnel many times because we' ; d be, we' ; d be bombed. So we finally got to Hiroshima and my, my father had a large, large house reserved for us, but Hiroshima said that that house needs to be wrecked down because it' ; s too, it' ; s almost as big as a castle. So we moved out of the city to a suburb, uh, less than one month after we moved. And that was, um, probably within a month after we moved. So my, I was only one did not need to go to school anymore, so my sister and my brother both had to be enrolled in schools in Hiroshima. That was three months before that A-bomb. JF: 09:07 So when the A-bomb went off, you were outside of Hiroshima but it must' ; ve been devastating to see what happened. MY: 09:21 It was, it was something... JF: 09:22 And I can understand if it' ; s too painful to talk about. MY: 09:25 It was uh, it was since we moved, we lived in a beach town. We had lot of accident in the beach, but my parents would not let us see some dead people. Died of drowning, things like that. I have not seen any dead people myself. I' ; m, I' ; m, if I lived in Tokyo, I' ; m sure people, some hundred and thousands of them. But that day, uh, my father did not take any official cars or anything. He said ' ; I' ; ll take a train to go to work.' ; So he left home about...later than my brother. My brother had to be back in school by 7, 7:30 or something. So he left already. And, uh, we saw him uh, leaving the house and all of us say goodbye to him. And that was the last time we saw him. He was 12 years old and, uh, uh, the school had rules that you had to walk. You' ; re not to take a streetcar or bus or anything after a certain station. So they all gathered at the station and started to walk. Which is...probably was a good training for young men, so everybody has to be back in school, 7:30 or something like close to 8. So my brother left first and then my father left second and uh, uh, when the bomb was dropped it was 8:15 in the morning. So three women, my sister had a day off that day because she was to change the assignment. So it' ; s almost a miracle that my sister was at home, otherwise she would be dead also. But she was uh, let' ; s see, eleventh grade. She was home, so I was alone with my mother, but A-bomb was dropped, uh, 8:15. So we, we stood out and then we saw those big white cloud that you see in the picture. And um, it wasn' ; t too long after that people started to run away from the cities, those people that are burned. JF: 11:56 When you saw the cloud, what did you think was happening? MY: 12:02 We had no idea. We did not have any idea, but my father probably knew. He said, he came home about, I think he came home about 10, 10:30, 11 o' ; clock. JF: 12:18 In the morning or in the evening? MY: 12:19 In the morning. He walked home because he, he saw some people around him just dying. So he um, he walked home, but in between the station that he was waiting for the streetcar, he got this black rain full of radiation. He was just poured with all that, but he came home. And he told me that the city itself is burning. He could not even get into the city because he knew he had to look for his son but he did come home. Then he got on the bicycle. He went back to the city. But he still could not get into the city because of the fire. And he came back again about 3:30 or 4 and the city had no electricity, city had nothing running. People were dying. So, um, my mother says, I want to go see if I can find my brother. So he went back there for the third time with my mother, but before he went to take her, he said, I remember that he said that ' ; you have to keep your mind strong. Don' ; t get upset. Do not lose yourself. If you- unless you can promise that I will not be able to you. So he and my mother went on foot to Hiroshima. And I think somehow between burning city and between dying, dead people, dying people and all the electric lines down on the ground, they got to the schoolyard. But I guess a lot of kids were dead and they, we, I think they got there about 5 o' ; clock in the afternoon and there' ; s no light, there' ; s no telephone, there' ; s nothing. So they had to leave, back to the home. So my mother made sure that somebody did see my brother because of the same, similar they, because of the name, last name and also the newcomer from Tokyo area. One kid remembered him and he said, ' ; yes, I did see your son. He was going that way.' ; So my mother and father said, well there' ; s a hope. So they came home and next day, the 7th of August, two of us, my sister and I begged my father the same thing: we want to go. So he said the same thing to us, ' ; be strong, don' ; t get upset,' ; all that. So we went off, the four of us went off, on foot again. And the neighbors also try to help us because they knew we were newcomer. So, the one that knew the geography of the city is probably my sister because she was in the school just for a few months, but we did not know, it' ; s too late. We knew nothing about the city. So it was very, very difficult. So we uh, we looked about seven days just just going from place to place and checking all the dead people' ; s name and...name and body. And I think the school kids of seventh grade people were not mobilized yet because 12-year-old is too young to be mobilized. So, um, I think among the people dead in the city, uh, 12, 13-year-old are the, probably the largest number because they' ; re walking outside, uh, my brother' ; s way about. We followed whatever we could, but in short, we just could not find him after a week. Only thing that I' ; m kind of proud of, my mother is, my mother kept a diary from August 6th to about 12th of August. Not a single person left that kind of stuff. So my mother' ; s original writing, uh, I translated that part into English and my sister donated that original writing to Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum. And it' ; s in a permanent exhibit right now. It' ; s written on very poor quality paper and my sister and I had no idea she was keeping that. So when she passed away in 1982, she found that. 37 years she didn' ; t say to anybody. So right now it' ; s available to lot of people to read. And I think my English translation is also there, together. So anybody that goes to Hiroshima, you can view that- my mother' ; s original writing and my English translation. And I think when I was still there in Hiroshima I think they had a memorial service for his school alone. I had, my brother' ; s school alone, had lost about 390 students and they have a memorial statue like. And I, I had to, I was 18 years old at the time. And right after that war, not knowing anything about the city, not knowing any friends or any relatives, uh, I ha- I was only one could make some, some cash money. So I worked about close to 10 years. So I came here in 1955. JF: 19:01 What kind of work did you do? MY: 19:03 I worked, I had no skill to make any money. So first I worked in a camera shop because I wanted, one time I wanted to become a photographer until I found out it' ; s- you have to carry very heavy equipment. And then, then, uh, when I settled down, I went to Catholic church, I went to this and that. But, um, I went to prefectural government and I got a working, a liaison office which had some occupations, occupation, people from Kure, which is um, naval fort away from Hiroshima. Uh, through that I went to some civic- civil, or civil affairs office and worked in English, typing and translating. Then when I got little, little settled down, Korean War' ; s going. I had no recollection how that started or what year that started because we were, I know at least I was, I was just completely lost and I worked in the ABCC: Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission. That American Energy Department sent tremendous number of physicians and the statisticians to study the result of atomic bomb, casualty of the atomic bomb. Except they, and made no public announcement of their studies. But I wanted to see how and what they are doing. Number one, physicians have no new medical devices so they treated no one. Number two: statistics. Only thing that I remember that they made announcement is leukemia is very much increase. And also there is some deformity in the babies that are born, with a small head. That' ; s about all I can remember. Then I worked with uh some uh, Protestant church ministers and I think that' ; s where about 10 years or so in my own country. JF: 21:26 Then you decided to come to the United States? MY: 21:29 And in, see, I came here in 1955. Unless you passed Fulbright scholarship, the official scholarship was available was Fulbright scholarship. You have to be quite bright, but there is uh, private small colleges in America who was giving scholarship to uh, Japanese, but 1950s I think very, very few people came. I think Anna' ; s grandmother came in a similar situation from Catholic college, I came as a college student from a small college in Indiana, which was Episcopal Methodist and my husband, which I never knew in Japan, I think he' ; s also some Protestant church school that he got a scholarship. JF: 22:26 Now before you came, what was your religion? MY: 22:31 Nothing. Except that, except that I was very heavily a Protestant, because the Japanese people had been different from Korean people. Korean is a very heavily Protestant, but Japanese have maybe 1% Christians including Catholic components and um, but religion is uh, another subject you can talk for a long time. It' ; s uh, I think Japanese to me is a very religious people eternal, eternal faith- JF: 23:12 Spiritual. MY: 23:12 They have, they may not go to church like here. Uh, but I think Japanese people as a whole is a religious people. JF: 23:23 So you came here, went to a college in Indiana and you majored in, in history, or... MY: 23:32 Social science here. JF: 23:34 Social sciences. New Speaker: 23:34 And I had a full scholarship here. But uh, I was telling Jennifer that when I met my husband here in Chicago, the people from Japan needed a job three months of summer and you cannot find a job in Chicago, you couldn' ; t find anywhere, anyplace. So having no friends, Japanese or American, he and I both, I think he worked in some place in downtown. I worked with my sponsors- both American ministers. She works at the Augustana Hospital. So she said, you can stay with us and you can get a, I can get you a job. So that' ; s how I started Augustana for the summer. Then before I went back to school administer said I want you to come back next year so I had a job secured. I think same thing with my husband to be at the time. Then 1956, just as we were going home back to uh, school, I think President Eisenhower was pressing a, a legislature for higher degree holders to apply for residency, which he decided we should try to get that and continue studies. So we were married in ' ; 57 and applied for that and I, that' ; s why I left the same college in Indiana and later on, I did finish at Northeastern, very close to the house. JF: 25:17 Um, that' ; s quite a story. No when you came here to the states, did you find that people, that there was a lot of prejudiced or angry feelings towards Japanese? MY: 25:36 I don' ; t think so except that people in Indiana, it was a small college. I don' ; t think they have seen the Japanese specimen. So when it' ; s uh Episcopal, Methodist church school. Somebody has to take me to the church. So we, I used to go to uh, Protestant churches and you could, you could tell they are just, it' ; s not prejudice, it' ; s just something that- new they have never seen before. JF: 26:08 Curiosity. MY: 26:08 Curiosity, maybe. Especially the kids. The kids would be pulling mother' ; s sleeve and say, look at that. And I think, I think also they have uh, certain ideas what to expect. Japanese woman, Japanese man, whatever they have a knowledge about. But I don' ; t think I had any prejudiced feeling, except I was told Indiana was quite old-fashioned in terms of lynching and all that. But I never had bad experience. JF: 26:45 So then, when you finished college you, you and your husband, you married and then you came here and to live in Chicago? MY: 26:53 And she, he had a, he had a degree in religious education, a masters, but he said this degree you cannot use in Japan. So he wanted to go to University of Chicago. So, uh, after we were married, University of Chicago gave a scholarship and also the Salvation Army gave us um living expense. So with the two years of string attached, you had to work back with the Salvation Army social service for two years. So, uh, he and I both worked with American, uh, concerns. I worked at Augustana Hospital and he worked at Salvation Army social service. And the social service department of the Salvation Army here in Chicago was one of the largest. We had a Jewish family, which is large, and uh, another one is, I can' ; t remember the name, but that' ; s his classmate was ahead of that. They were three big ones at the time. JF: 28:02 And at what point did you decide that you were going to stay in the United States? MY: 28:08 Well, two years, two years, that requirement that you had to stay. Uh, when he was working that two years requirement, he was promoted so, so fast and they had about 35 people with a master' ; s in social service and it was a large agency, but he too had no discrimination in terms of getting certain positions. And I had um, uh, medical records work divided into lab and medical records for budget reasons, but I was picked up about five years later as a head of the department. And when you have certain skills that you are required here in this country to apply that to another countries, completely, extremely difficult, extremely difficult. And uh, because of my family situation that my father was gone and uh, I come from very small family to get him, uh, some job that he can use the studies that here treatment method, um, concept for the social service is divided between two ministries like welfare and education. It' ; s, it' ; s was very, very difficult. So that' ; s how we just kept on living here. JF: 29:54 So really been here most of your life then? MY: 30:00 More than I am, more than I expected. Anna Takada: 30:04 Do you remember your first impressions of Chicago? MY: 30:09 Well, we had to sit down to pick where we should live, we should live. We would live any place, but east, south, west. Chicago was in Midwest and probably we felt this was probably least discriminatory in terms of culture or people, whatever. And he, he wanted to go to University of Chicago. And that was couple of reasons and I, I think that was right to me. That was right. JF: 30:49 So, um, you lived in, you would say you lived in this area for most- when you first came here. Now, did you have children, did you have kids? MY: 31:00 No, we had no kids. JF: 31:02 No kids. So, so you' ; ve lived here for awhile and then you moved up further north. But I remember we were talking that this was, um, a Japanese area. I remember on Belmont, Toguri, I used to go into there and there was places like that. So how did that feel all of a sudden, I mean, when you were in Indiana you couldn' ; t get anything Japanese, any food or anything like that. So coming to this area? MY: 31:35 I did not, I don' ; t think Ikuo and I, both of us did not crave for anything Japanese. I think I have not known anything about Toguri' ; s store, until he told me one time. And uh, as I mentioned before, I had no Japanese American friends. I think service committee, I think [inaudible], uh, to take that job, uh, as a head of uh, service committee way back, way, way back. But when he told me about that, I said, I don' ; t think you would fit to that because we don' ; t have any friends. We don' ; t have any relatives. We don' ; t know much about that. And that' ; s when uh we [inaudible] to go. But before he was, because there was not a male Jap- male Japanese who speaks Japanese and English and with a social service degree, there was no such person and [inaudible], had a religious, uh, he was a minister. But anyway, he ter-, and I think he served one term as a board member, but he was too busy to do that. So I had very little contact with the service committee and I think I gave my deepest credit to your grandmother. She took me over there. JF: 33:06 Did your sister stay in Japan? MY: 33:08 Yes. JF: 33:08 She did. So your mother and your sister MY: 33:12 They both come to visit, but they always stayed. JF: 33:16 Now after going through...Hiroshima and that and then coming here, what were you, did you have any negative feelings about America? I mean, it was a horribly brutal war. I mean... MY: 33:32 I think, I always wanted to separate the government and the people. Government, what they, what they do is not what, representing the people in, of any country. And uh, after 10 years of, uh, turmoil in my head, I decided, well I have to go and see myself, what the people is like. So, um, that' ; s why I think I did come here, uh, not thinking that I' ; ll be here for this long. That' ; s the one thing that I never thought about, but uh. JF: 34:09 That you stayed. Interviewer 2: 34:12 Mari? Um, knowing that your sister still lives in Japan and you talk to her all the time, was there ever a time when, because you and she, you know, you spoke to her about the effects of Hiroshima and, and all of that. Was there ever a time when she wanted to come to the United States or you wanted to go back to Japan because you spoke, you speak all the time and so you knew exactly what was going on in both countries? MY: 34:38 Yeah, yeah. I2: 34:38 How was that? MY: 34:40 I think it' ; s difficult to live with, so many people ask me also now that I' ; m alone, but you don' ; t, I don' ; t think you want to live with a married sister. She had her own family and, uh, uh, job situation that I was waiting to do anything that if Ikuo could find a job. We spent quite a bit of money and time in the 70s, uh, trying to get back to Japan. But as I mentioned before, it' ; s extremely difficult to get decent job. Wages are too low and it' ; s not recognize in Japan- they don' ; t have a social service graduate degree or anything. Uh, they have a good welfare system, but they have copied case managers and all that, names from exactly what we use here. And they are using, I think there' ; s uh one college now with a social service, um, major, but no, no graduate degree. But friend of mine who was at University of Illinois Social Service, she tried very hard to work at both minister welfare and education, but it' ; s a medical, medical field and it' ; s extremely difficult to get into that kind of situation. And um, Ikuo was um, interested in that treatment of alcoholics, but the treatment method and the concept of alcoholism is completely...it' ; s not there, it' ; s not if, it' ; s not different it' ; s, it' ; s more authoritative in Japan. And with all of that background, it' ; s very different. It' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s easy to ask questions like, you, you have just two sis-, one sister and why don' ; t you, why don' ; t you get the job and I can probably get a job doing some translation or something. But uh, Japanese require a certain educational background. I don' ; t have that background to fit to that job requirement. And, uh, it' ; s not an easy thing to, to make a change like, like what you have suggested. So that' ; s why I ended up here. JF: 37:19 Things that I' ; ve read and Japanese people that I, I' ; ve met, um, I got the impression that Japanese society is a lot more structured... MY: 37:32 I think so. JF: 37:33 Than an American society. Um, can you talk a little bit about that, the differences you found when you came here? MY: 37:45 Well, I think when I came here I found that uh, system itself is very, very open. For instance, like I remember the first year I was in this country that they talked about blind people and professor was a lady. She said that in the Western culture they have a feeling that blindness is a punishment of God. We don' ; t have any such thing. And blind people is for centuries make living, um, playing Koto, a certain occupation is, uh, I can' ; t think of anybody else other than blind people doing that. Uh, massage. That' ; s another job that they have always done that. We never think that as a God, God punishment. There are some cultural difference in interpreting, I think. I find that also very interesting. And I did tell uh, professor about that. And also and even in literature, I think the, certain literature are not interpreted the same way as we do. Uh, I think it' ; s all because of the difference of the background or the way we think. And I, I' ; m sure this country with a different background of the people, they probably have a lot more interpretation than, than I know of because I' ; m not that scholastic. But, uh, I think in that way, I think this was a good experience for me to, to see that. And at the same time, because of that, I think they were ready to accept anybody and any kind of uh, background because in my own office I tried to get people from another country, about half of them w-re American born. We needed to learn from the American-born, but people that are from another country had something to contribute. So, uh, I had a Cuban lady, uh, this also wealthy kind of Cuban lady and uh, Iraqian, Filipino. I used uh, blind people to, uh, translate uh, to a type. Uh, all of these are very open to do, I find that very encouraging to me. JF: 40:22 Was it, um, an adjustment, when you were saying that, I was thinking in Japan, it' ; s a pretty homogeneous society- that you don' ; t see many other cultures and then you come to America and we' ; re just a mixture of everything. Was that, how, did that affect you when you, when you came here and, um, MY: 40:51 Well at the same time what I' ; m saying is the people who had a position in Japan say like a professor who have position in Japan, many of them could not get a tenure or teaching job here. A lot of them did go back. That probably told you that how difficult for those people adjust- to make adjustment. JF: 41:14 Yeah. MY: 41:14 And we, I myself, I had no experience. I, I could get into any, any kind of situation. I know too many people that did not stay here, especially on a professional level. AT: 41:35 Mari-san, I' ; d love to hear more, um, about your experiences of coming to Chicago. Um, and what that was like because a lot of people had had come from camp to Chicago, um, right after the war. So did you, did you know about the camps? MY: 42:00 Nothing. AT: 42:00 Um, when did you hear about them? MY: 42:03 Very recently. Very recently because this exhibit probably is uh, first time. I think your mother took me to Northwestern and they had a small exhibit but that' ; s not for the camp. They had exhibit of uh, bombing, the result of Japan, which I have never seen after I left Japan. Like a Shinagawa station where I used to get off my train was very heavily bombed and I think this is, might be my first one to see very complete one and uh, second the experience is that service committee' ; s program of uh, other side of war. I think that that was the first time I saw about your camp life as well as other side of war. Very touching just the surface of the war experience in Japan. I think is the same thing. Applies to the people in this country. Japanese American know very little about what we went in, in, in um, in Japan. As a matter of fact, I, I learned from your mother, grandmother. I had no idea what went on. My classmate was with your mother- grandmother, I didn' ; t, I had no idea they went evacuating. AT: 43:42 Do you remember your, your reactions to learning about that? What happened? MY: 43:48 It, uh, I think it' ; s a good thing that it' ; s so many years past. If that is something that immediately after the war it will be very difficult to forget it. But, uh, somebody else pain, it' ; s very difficult to feel yourself, right? And, uh, I think all of us do have a pain either in the camp or within the war, but I think that ability that we can forget is, uh, sometimes a blessing that you do have less and less, except sometimes that comes right back to you. But other than that, we have our ability to forget. AT: 44:40 And you, you had said you didn' ; t know, um, you didn' ; t know other Japanese or Japanese Americans when you came to Chicago. Um, but you did meet my grandmother here. MY: 44:53 That' ; s, that' ; s probably is true.. I know one couple who lives in Hawai' ; i. It' ; s Hawaiian, Japanese, Hawaiian, it' ; s uh Sansei or Yonsei I guess. Other than that, that I don' ; t, I don' ; t know. Some people that lives in suburb, like coming from [inaudible], from business. I know few. Other than that, I knew very, very, very little. AT: 45:26 Well and, and I can say I' ; ve seen you at a, a number of events, um, within the Japanese American community my whole life. Um, whether it' ; s, um, things at the JASC or, um, you know, like ' ; Holiday Delight,' ; things like that. When did you start going to some of those events? MY: 45:51 Your grandmother took me [laughs]. It' ; s gotta be very, very few years, five, six years maybe? I don' ; t know, five, six years maybe. I remember going to your graduation from Whitney Young. AT: 46:08 Walter Payton. MY: 46:12 What, uh, what year was that you graduated? AT: 46:15 Uh, 2010. MY: 46:16 2010. AT: 46:18 Yes. MY: 46:18 I went with your grandmother and grandfather and then I knew [Sachet?] Because of the of where he go to... AT: 46:28 Because of? MY: 46:28 Because after he plays at contrabass, the father. And also I knew a physician from Japan who lived next door who stayed in Chicago for nine months and now he' ; s back in Japan. So that' ; s about more than five, seven, seven, eight years. JF: 47:00 Okay. Have you gone back to Japan? MY: 47:03 Many times. JF: 47:03 Multiple times, like? MY: 47:03 Many times. JF: 47:03 Many times. MY: 47:03 Yeah. I' ; m tired of me going riding on a plane for 14 hours. JF: 47:15 [Laughs] oh yeah. So, so you' ; ve lived most of your life here and it sounds like you were happy that you made that decision. Do you ever think maybe you should have gone back at a later time? MY: 47:30 I don' ; t think I, I could do this any other way or you don' ; t think what, what Japan' ; s um, stiff requirement. Uh, I know your grandmother had the same desire to become social worker, but when it comes right down to it, I try that myself way back. You have to be from certain college, you have to have a degree, not unknown place. I mean, your, your requirement for somebody like educated in other country, uh, could be quite stiff. JF: 48:08 I remember a friend of mine said when they would take exams for college, they would be published in the paper, whether you passed or not. Yeah. And he went to, I remember he went to Waseda. MY: 48:25 Mhm. Waseda. JF: 48:25 Yeah. But when he took the entrance exam, first time he didn' ; t pass and it was very shameful for his family, but it was in the newspaper. MY: 48:39 Yes. JF: 48:39 But eventually, he did graduate. New Speaker: 48:43 That' ; s another thing that I like America. It' ; s not, it' ; s not what college you' ; re from, but you' ; re, you' ; re rated, you' ; re appreciated by your accomplishment. Your, uh, I think in that sense I think America is very open and it' ; s, it' ; s wonderful to, to somebody. Of course you have some people that with a college degree and graduate degree no good, but you can prove yourself. AT: 49:19 I like to ask this question when I' ; m wrapping up these interviews, but um, if, if you could leave any kind of message or, or legacy, um, you know, with, with your family and maybe not your kids or grandkids, but, um, just for generations to come, what kind of message would you want to leave? MY: 49:45 Not for any particular group? AT: 49:49 For future generations. MY: 49:52 I think the country with uh, it' ; s not homogeneous. I mean Japan has little vari- variety of people. It' ; s not for one race, we would differentiate by where you are from, what dialect you talk. But I think country with uh, many different races, different group of people, it' ; s very, very difficult. A country like America, country like from European country. And uh, I don' ; t know how you can resolve that but to have equal feeling without, without some difference in uh, ratio differences in Japan. I have prejudice, I prefer certain peoples from certain places or certain schools. I do, but we all try do our best. That' ; s all we can do. It' ; s not true that we can be fair to every person. It' ; s not possible to me. And I not, I' ; m not sure if that is possible for anybody, but I think we should all try not to discriminate and take it as, as what you are and start from that. I think that we all have to do that. But there are certain group people that eliminate that from the beginning that I think should not be done in a country like this, especially AT: 51:42 Mari-san, Is there anything that you' ; d like to add or that we may have missed in this conversation? MY: 51:50 Well, I don' ; t know, you, I thought it was 10 minutes to leave? You trick me [laughs]. I2: 52:00 Well you just have so much to talk about. Very rich, full life you, you need to get it out. AT: 52:06 Well, thank you so much for, for coming in and, and speaking with us. Really appreciate it. MY: 52:12 Thank you [laughs]. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamaguchiMari20170913.xml YamaguchiMari20170913.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Yamaguchi, Mari (9/13/2017)
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2017-09-13
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JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection
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Japanese Americans--History.
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This collection contains oral history interviews from the Japanese American Service Committee (JASC) Legacy Center's holdings. Where available, transcriptions have been included and synced to the recordings to enable full-text searching.
Interviews were recorded at various times, some by JASC staff and some by external partners, often supported by grant funding. See the metadata associated with each interview for full details.
This digital collection will continue to grow as new interviews are recorded, and as additional pre-existing recordings are received by donation or discovered in the physical archives.
The digitization and transcription of many of the recordings in this collection, the recording of interviews between July 2018 and June 2021, and the creation of this publicly accessible digital platform, were funded by a Japanese American Confinements Sites (JACS) grant awarded by the National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. The JASC Legacy Center gratefully acknowledges the financial support received between 2018 and 2021 that enabled this project to succeed.
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of the U.S. Department of the Interior.
This material received Federal financial assistance for the preservation and interpretation of
U.S. confinement sites where Japanese Americans were detained during World War II.
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
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Japanese American Service Committee (Chicago, Ill.). Legacy Center
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Takada, Anna
Kuramitsu, Keilyn
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Yamagiwa, Gary
OHMS Object Text
5.4 10/11/2017 Yamagiwa, Gary (10/11/2017) 0:53:55 JASC_OHP JASC Legacy Center Oral History Collection TTCFM Then They Came for Me Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center Recorded with financial support from the Alphawood Foundation Chicago. Transcribed and made accessible online with financial support from the Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Japanese American Confinement Sites grant program. Yamagiwa, Gary Takada, Anna Kuramitsu, Keilyn video 0 https://vimeo.com/307597748 Vimeo video < ; iframe src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/307597748?h=b3f3b10d9d" ; width=" ; 640" ; height=" ; 360" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; allow=" ; autoplay ; fullscreen ; picture-in-picture" ; allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; [NOTE: This transcript has not undergone a final proofreading and may contain errors. It is being provided in draft form to enhance access to the video recording. As soon as possible, it will be replaced with a final, corrected transcript and will be synced to the video to provide clickable timecodes.] Gary Yamagiwa: 00:00 You just start by stating your full name. My name is Gary Yamagiwa. Anna Takada: 00:04 And um, where are you from? GY: 00:08 I' ; m born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. AT: 00:10 When were you born? What is your birthday? GY: 00:14 May 8th, 1953. AT: 00:16 Okay. Um, so to start, can you just tell me a little bit about your family, your parents maybe were where they' ; re from? GY: 00:26 Sure. My mother, uh, Tesui Kashino was born and raised, well I believe in Santa Ana, California. Uh, there was eight children. AT: 00:43 Where was she in the group? GY: 00:45 She' ; s probably maybe fourth, third or fourth. Yeah. So she' ; s older and um, they, I guess they farmed, had a farm. As a family, they ended up going to a Poston, Arizona for camps. My father and his, ah seven, the seven kids and his mother went to Tule Lake. Well, they were born in Bellevue. They lived in Bellevue, Washington. They too were farmers. My dad started out and going to Manzanar and then the whole family. He reunited with his family in Tule Lake. AT: 01:39 How did that, how, how were they separated? How did that work? GY: 01:43 Um, my father was a, a, a roguish individual, you know, he went out and he found work on his own. He traveled around the country on the East Coast, I mean on the West Coast on his own, because that' ; s what he liked to do. He liked to go out and meet people. So he kind of left. And then when the evacuation came up here, I think he was caught in California. So went to Manzanar. AT: 02:16 So was he on the older end of his siblings? GY: 02:20 Yes. Yes. She was the eldest AT: 02:25 Do you know anything about your grandparents, where they were coming from? GY: 02:31 My father' ; s grandmother was from Nagano area. And my mother' ; s grandmother, I mean my mother' ; s mother was from Wakayama. Uh, I never knew my grandfathers, either one. They had passed away by that time, I was young. AT: 02:56 Do you have any sense of when they came to the US or what they were doing in Japan? GY: 03:01 No. Um, I believe they were both a picture brides. So they came as young people and maybe about, oh, in the 1910s or somewhere around there. AT: 03:27 So your, your mother' ; s family are from Santa Ana. Did they go to any assembly center? Did they go straight to Poston? GY: 03:35 That? I' ; m not sure. I' ; m sure, they did go to an assembly center. AT: 03:43 And what, maybe, like stories are family memories, how you' ; ve heard from your family or have been passed down around camp. Do you know a whole lot about their experience? GY: 03:58 Not a whole lot. We didn' ; t talk too much about that kind of thing until later when I was old. We just knew that they in camp I knew my dad was, he told me he would try to get out every chance he got. So when they wanted someone to pick vegetables he would be picking vegetables for AT: 04:28 Work leave? GY: 04:29 Yeah, work leave, you know he, he liked to wander so whenever he can get out he got up. My mother' ; s family, they were very close knit so I' ; m sure they managed. They had a big family but I never heard anything bad from her or negative from her. And so growing up we didn' ; t know what happened. We thought oh it sounded bad, but they never bad mouthed what happened. So it' ; s kind of ah, we weren' ; t um really sure about the negative side of it until we heard from other people we ask more in depth questions. AT: 05:36 How old were they at the time of the break out of the war? GY: 05:38 So my dad I think was about 25. So he was 25, 26 and so his siblings were all younger, probably down to early high school age. And my mom was probably, she must' ; ve been about twenty. She was one of the older ones, and then she' ; s got siblings that were probably early teens. AT: 06:18 And uh, where, where did both of your parents go after camp and when? GY: 06:22 They came to Chicago. My dad' ; s family came to Chicago in part, because one of the older daughters got a job working in a person' ; s house. And so that was a reason for the whole family to come to Chicago. AT: 06:52 So did she leave before GY: 06:53 She did leave before, and then they all came, they all followed and they all lived together. And the same is true. I' ; m not sure about the employment, but my mother' ; s family also came to Chicago directly from camps. AT: 07:12 Was it a similar situation where one person had come up first or did they all come? GY: 07:18 I think they probably all came together. I didn' ; t hear anything about how or why. AT: 07:29 And do you know where they first were, when they came to Chicago, which neighborhoods or part of town? GY: 07:36 They started out around Diversey, Clark and Diversey part of the family, and part of my, um. Both families ended up in Uptown area. They started out living on Kenmore, just north of Irving Park, Kenmore and Wilson, they had an apartment building in there. Then we moved north to Uptown. Broadway, Wilson Avenue. AT: 08:10 And so where were you born? GY: 08:13 I was born on Eastwood, in the building that my grandmother owns. She ended up buying this like ah rooming house building. Don' ; t ask me how much, how she got the money to do this. But when I was born there was the building. That' ; s where we kind of grew up. AT: 08:47 This is Eastwood that' ; s in Lakeview or? GY: 08:50 No, it' ; s Eastwood in Uptown. It' ; s Wilson and Sheridan. A block north of Wilson Avenue, so Wilson and Sheridan. AT: 09:00 Do you know any more details about like when it was purchased or GY: 09:04 It was probably purchased, um, around 1949, 1950 [inaudible]. AT: 09:14 You remember the address? GY: 09:15 918 West Eastwood. AT: 09:22 And so who is she, who was she leasing to? GY: 09:24 It was like a rooming house with one and two room apartments with a little kitchenette. I think you have to go down the hall to go to the bathroom, take a shower. So, um, there were some longtime ah renters, but there were a lot of more transient renters. She rented to Japanese students that would come in and she went and she had a lot of friends that were Alaskan, you know, they came to Chicago for work and they ended up, we had a little network Alaskan Indians that would live there. And then various people. AT: 10:19 And this is um, early, mid-fifties that she had it? GY: 10:28 Fifties, sixties. Yeah. Up until the seventies. Yeah. AT: 10:38 And so did she sell it? GY: 10:41 They eventually sold it, yes. But as long as I lived there, you know, my grandmother lived there, she had her apartment and we grew up running around there. AT: 10:55 And then just to clarify, is this your mom' ; s dad or your dad' ; s dad, mom? Sorry. GY: 11:01 This is my mom' ; s mom. Shimei Kushino. Yes. AT: 11:11 And can you tell me just a little bit about your own family? Do you have any siblings? GY: 11:18 I do. I have ah, I had an older sister, she passed away. I have two younger brothers, so there were the four of us. AT: 11:30 How can you use, were you at the boarding house? GY: 11:35 We were there, um, for the first 19 years of my life? Yeah. We were there a long time. We essentially went to grammar school, high school in that, living there. AT: 11:55 And your parents, what did they do when they come to Chicago? GY: 11:59 My mother worked at ah Gin and Company, which was a book, they created books. My father was, he started out working with sheet metal and then he and his buddies opened up a auto repair business on North Broadway. So that was, it was nice. It was always ah, you know, the family. He had his own business with his friends and family, my uncle. AT: 12:42 And Gin and, do you remember where that was? GY: 12:46 No, no, I' ; m not sure, this was before I was born. I think once we started showing up. That was it. She stayed at home, took care of the kids. AT: 13:04 And um, where on Broadway was your dad' ; s shop? Do you remember GY: 13:08 5745 Broadway, yes. AT: 13:09 What was the name of it? GY: 13:10 Uptown Auto Service. So it was well-known in the Japanese community, so we had a lot of clients that were Japanese Americans. AT: 13:30 Okay, and then as far as schools, can you tell me where you went to elementary school? GY: 13:40 I went to elementary school at Stewart School, which is on Wilson and Kenmore. Um, I went there first through seven and a half, seventh grade. Always had Japanese kids in my class as my classmates. There were a lot of Japanese to live there. And then we went to Stockton School, which is ah Montrose and Clark and we' ; ve made a lot more Japanese kids. And then went to Kane Tech. Lot of Japanese guys there. AT: 14:26 So it was still all boys? GY: 14:28 It was all boys, but you know, we, we knew each other from the neighborhood. So, um, we hung, hung around together. Japanese Americans. AT: 14:44 As far as your own social circle were mostly Japanese American growing up? GY: 14:51 Well, it depended on the day of the week. On the weekends, you know, there was family gatherings, you know, with all the kids. I always had a lot of cousins, so we spent a lot of time around the family. And also on the weekends we went to Church, was Christ Church of Chicago, which is a Japanese American congregation. So, um, all the people we were around, were Japanese American. We were part of the Japanese American community Christian community. And then during the week, and you come across everyone else. AT: 15:43 So how were you going to try Tri-C since you can remember? GY: 15:47 Yes. AT: 15:49 And where, where was it located? GY: 15:51 Ah 701 Buckingham, which is right around Halsted, just north of Belmont. That' ; s Buckingham. There was a big building, so there were a lot of activities, a scout' ; s youth group activities. That' ; s where I really got to gain, a feel of being Japanese American because they were, we always were always around other families, JA families. The men there are, you know, they' ; re the role models and the women. So it was a strong influence for me. AT: 16:51 When you say that, are there any people are names in particular that stick out to you? GY: 16:57 Sure. I could go on and on. Would you like me to know there was, uh, one of my good friends was Yosakai. He was a judo instructor, a cook and you know, he kinda took me under his wing and really taught me so much about how to live life. There was people like Mr. Katahiro, Ken Katahiro the funniest, funniest guy. Had a hilarious dry sense of humor. AT: 17:40 They were leaders in the church? GY: 17:41 Yes. AT: 17:46 And um, can you tell me more about the family gatherings? What would you do? GY: 17:58 We would gather at people' ; s houses and we would eat and then the kids would go outside, you know, to the yards and play at that point in my life, I' ; m not sure what the adults were doing. It might have a been about conversation and beer. But you know, that' ; s....There were always a lot of kids. We played tag, we played guns. Hide and seek. Yeah. AT: 18:40 Was that something you looked forward to? GY: 18:41 Oh, sure. Oh, it was great. Great fun. Well, you know, these are people you grow up with, you know. Know, you' ; re comfortable around them. People are nice. They' ; re supportive. AT: 18:57 I want to ask you about, um, Japanese language. Did you, was that scoping in your family? Did you have to go to Japanese school? GY: 19:08 I never went to Japanese school. Japanese was mostly a one way thing in our house because my grandmother spoke Japanese. She lived with us the whole time she was alive. She spoke Japanese. I learned to understand a little bit. I would respond in English and she would eventually figure out what I was saying. And so we had a way of communicating without me being able to speak Japanese. It was good experience for us. AT: 19:49 And GY: 19:50 Well, one more thing about that. There was always um, Japanese being spoken when, uh, my parents and my grandmother didn' ; t want us to know what they' ; re talking about so they will just flip right into it. And it was interesting. AT: 20:26 So you had mentioned that you were pretty aware of your Japanese American identity given your, the time spent within the community, you know, the church specifically. Can you tell me more about that. Was that something that you knew from a young age, you know. What was your experience with your own [inaudible]? GY: 20:57 You know, it just felt real natural to be around groups of Japanese, Japanese Americans. Um, I think our family was able to function real well in non-Japanese groups because we would go to the, the, the boys club every day and we would, uh, you know, fool around at school and, you know, play little league and we were on the swim team and this was all with non-Japanese people and so we were comfortable there. But then when we were with the church group or with family, it was comfortable too. So you know, I think we were able to, really feel a comfort level no matter where we were, which was we thought, you know, I thought it was natural. That' ; s the way it is for everybody. AT: 22:12 You mentioned little league and swimming, I' ; d like to hear more about is, um, what did you do for fun outside of school? GY: 22:20 We ended up going to the, uh, the boys club. McCormick Boys' ; Club everyday. AT: 22:32 Can you tell me more about that? GY: 22:32 Sure. AT: 22:34 What is that? GY: 22:35 McCormick Boy' ; s Club was a club that started out being for the boys know they come and they have activities, they got game rooms, they have crafts, they have a pool, they have a gym, so they have all these activities. So we would go sign up for activities and go shoot pool, play ping pong, we would just hang out there all day. I think maybe this was the, our parents designed to get us active than to do stuff, but it worked. So we were on the swim teams, which means you go swimming four, five times a week just to practice. AT: 23:22 Where would you swim? GY: 23:23 At the club, in the pool and then we go out. We have meets, so pack up the car and go to different other clubs and have meets. That took up a lot of time. Yeah. AT: 23:42 And do you remember um, like any other Japanese American businesses or restaurants, grocery stores? GY: 23:53 Yeah, we remember. I remember, um, a lot of restaurants on the North side. I don' ; t remember their names necessarily, but there was one on Broadway and a block south of Foster, Winona There used to be a Japanese restaurant, I think it might be a Zuma House. There used to be ah gift shops, little Japanese gift shops. There was one on Clark and Belmore around the corner. Used to go in there. There used to be ah a Japanese, little grocery store across from the BTC, Buddhist Temple used to just go in there, you know, you can always get a bontan ame in those places, which is fun for us. That was the highlights. AT: 24:54 And you, I' ; d like to talk a little bit more about your experience, I guess understanding or learning about internment and also resettlement because obviously as you' ; re saying you' ; re a part of this Japanese American community, um, which like we was largely there because of camp. Um, so I guess, um, can you just, can you, um, tell me a little bit more about...how you understand camp from a young age and maybe how that changed over the years when you started asking questions. And things like that. GY: 25:52 I think I knew about camp. I knew that they had done all this. They had ah, been interned in these camps. And I would, when I asked how was it. Um, I never sensed any anger in the anguish. You know, I think my parents just, you know, they, they either wanted to just move on. Uh, they wanted to grow their family and not have this be a part of who they are. And so initially, I mean, at this time we just, I just thought, well, it' ; s too bad, but you know, I look at my parents and said, well, I look at my, all, my aunts and uncles. I said, wow, it must not have been too bad. They' ; re all doing well. They' ; re all happy people. I mean. AT: 27:20 Did you ever talk about it with your peers? GY: 27:27 No, I don' ; t think I do know. It' ; s just not a subject that really came. We were kids trying to lead kids' ; lives. So we didn' ; t really ah question. You know, we weren' ; t that in tune, curious. We just want to go outside and run around. AT: 28:03 And I, was there a certain point that your parents did open up or share? Because obviously you know, some details about where they went and things. GY: 28:16 Yeah uh, I think it was a later, and it' ; s probably spurred on by the hearings, you know, I had a friend, I used to teach high school at a [Senton] High School and I had a good friend, her name was Alice Asaki. She was ah, at the JACL. She was very much in tune with the Japanese American community, what was going on? And she said, Gary, you need to go to this thing. I thought, " ; What, why?" ; " ; You need to hear the stories." ; So we lived two blocks from Northeastern. So I walked there. I was shocked. It was, it was, uh, too much. I was overwhelmed. I was angry. I was in my late twenties, early thirties, you know, and that' ; s when it, first, what had happened, at first really hit me. You know, and then I became angry at my parents. How can you let this happen to... Misplace anger. I' ; m young. I thought...young and ignorant. So, um, so then we talked a little bit more, but the anger, it was overwhelming testimony AT: 30:39 Is testimonies that you were hearing. Did your parents testify? GY: 30:45 No, but the people I listened to were people I knew from the community. AT: 30:54 Do you remember any of those? GY: 30:58 Well, I believe Alice, she' ; s testifying. I think Chei told me. He told me. Yeah, she testified, you know, these are people that, you know, we' ; re a community leaders, so you know, you know, but then you' ; re hearing things that you' ; ve never heard. William Kimura. So not only was it a, a story that was difficult to listen to, but you know, it became a real. When, you know, the people that AT: 31:52 Are there any of those stories that have stuck with you? GY: 31:56 Um, no, because I think in a lot of ways it' ; s almost the same story being told over and over. People from different places. No, they' ; d have different family situations, but it probably as a whole ah resonated, so. Terrible. Terrible justice. AT: 32:49 I think you' ; re the first person I' ; ve spoken to who is actually at the hearings. Can you tell me more about what it was like, what the arrangement is? Wasn' ; t just a single day. GY: 33:03 Uh, I think it was a couple of days, big room packed, chairs and then there' ; s a table in front and a microphone and it was crowded. I ended up just standing and listening. You know, I thought how brave they are. AT: 33:37 So this was um, something that was open to the public? GY: 33:41 Yes. Open to the public, it was. AT: 33:45 And the people who were there, dd you know most of the people in the room? GY: 33:53 No, there were many, many people there. I know a lot of people. And then there were other people that I' ; m sure we' ; re just curious. You know, it was ah very powerful. AT: 34:16 And was it just the one day that you went or did you go? GY: 34:19 I think I went a couple of days. Yes. AT: 34:25 Did you go alone? GY: 34:26 I did go alone. AT: 34:35 Well, thank you for sharing that. Like I said, we haven' ; t spoken to anyone who was actually there. GY: 34:52 I don' ; t know if I would have gone if I didn' ; t have a friendship with Alice. You know, you hear about it and say, well things are happening. This thing is happening. I still hear her, " ; You better go here." ; AT: 35:16 How do you think things would be different for you? You haven' ; t gone if you didn' ; t have that relationship. GY: 35:24 Oh, I have no idea how things will be different. I imagine they would have been very different. I know I wouldn' ; t be sitting here right now. AT: 35:41 Sounds like it was almost like an awakening. GY: 35:44 It was, it also, um, it really changed my view, of ah, what government is and what people have to do to fight bad government. This anger just changed my view of what it means to live in this country. AT: 36:41 When you look at the current political climate. You know, given this experience that you have and some of the things that you' ; re saying it taught you. Do you, do you think something like this could ever happen again or, or whether I guess I' ; m just curious about your own reflections about GY: 37:24 To a degree, what happened then is happening now. I mean, just the kind of talk, you' ; re hearing from the leaders of the government. Tells you you have to be vigilant. Yeah, sure. Same thing could happen. You know, it' ; s uh, it' ; s like the lessons of the past last as long as you' ; re ah memory allows it then then. So everything is all brand new. AT: 38:14 What are your hopes for, for future generations, for your kids? Grandkids? GY: 38:32 Uh, well, what I have noticed and what I appreciate, or the intelligence and the, uh, the heart of the young young adults now. So smart, so dedicated that uh, there' ; s great hope. You know, we, you know, we' ; re going to have to put our hand. I mean put our lives and in their hands and um, there' ; s no doubt in my mind they can get the job done. It' ; s, it' ; s, um, it' ; s nice to see and you know, I see all these young kids out there, you know, trying to, to change things. So there' ; s great hope. I feel great hope. Although it is pretty much at a low point right now given our current administration. AT: 39:54 As far as the, the Japanese American community. How, because you' ; ve been involved for such a young age, imagining you consider yourself still. How have you seen it change or evolve over the years? What are some of your observations maybe? How would you describe it in those early years? And then how would you describe it now? GY: 40:29 Well, I just there' ; s not a need for this kind of community to be together like this. Um, in the earlier years when I was young, you know, I think there was a need for her, my parents and their friends, you know, to be together. That need I think as, as lesson. But um, for some people there' ; s still a draw, you know, so be part of a community, a Japanese American community. So whereas, um, the need might not be there. I think nowadays are developing and have a desire to be together. AT: 41:40 Can you say more on what that means actually was like why? Why was there a need in the earlier days? GY: 41:49 Well, there was a lot of anti Japanese sentiment. Even I' ; m in the Midwest, we felt it a little bit growing up, you know, being called names. And I think that' ; s one of the things that drove us into having groups of friends that were Japanese American. I think people were just earlier, people would just finding a way to go on without, you know, without any difficulty. And your rank. Kinda lay low, you know, not make waves, raise your kids. AT: 43:08 One more question before wrapping up and I' ; m curious to know, um, well, well, first I' ; m interested in hearing your thoughts about um, the resettlement to Chicago and that, that migration of people in that move with your family from, you know, being put into camps and then moving to a different part of the country. Is that, have you felt in your own experience but that experience of your parents as you know somehow shaped you in any really serious ways or is it just GY: 44:30 Well, sometimes I, I' ; m, how things might' ; ve been different if they didn' ; t all come to Chicago, I would have loved to grow up and live in Washington, Bellevue, Washington if they had gone back there, but then realistically, yeah, all the things that happened and ended up with me being here. So to speculate, otherwise would be meaningless. I think it was good that they all were able to come here because it allowed this community though develop to grow, to make life for themselves. Although when I go to the West Coast, they have nice lives there too. Uh, I don' ; t know how, how else to say? AT: 45:52 Have you visited other Japanese American communities in different places? GY: 45:56 Oh yes, sure. Seattle, San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles. I love it. AT: 46:07 How, how would you compare that and maybe how we should call it different? GY: 46:14 Well, I think seeing a center, of uh businesses, is, is nice, a central area. Um, but also it' ; s cool just to see businesses that have Japanese names on. You know, I was shocked when I go to these other parts of the country, go to Los Angeles and see all these businesses that have Japanese names and I say wow. You know, they' ; ve all kind of faded in Chicago. They' ; ve sold out. They' ; ve. But Seattle, you go there, they' ; re still thriving, get a sense of pride. AT: 47:12 Did you feel that in Chicago? GY: 47:16 Well I think it' ; s a different kind of a feeling growing up here, it' ; s. You know, it' ; s, you know pride never comes when this is your, uh, your home when this. I mean, you don' ; t automatically are all of a sudden develop pride, but to go to another place and say, wow, this is kind of place exists. That' ; s nice. I like it. AT: 47:50 How wuld you feel about having a central area in Chicago of Japanese Americans? GY: 48:00 Well, it would be, it will be fun. It' ; d be great. I would like that. AT: 48:08 Just a couple more questions. I guess just kind of point blank, how do you think that the history of your family, your parents, in terms of how do you think that' ; s impacted your life? Maybe you as a person? If at all. GY: 48:37 Well, seeing what my family, my parents, families have gone through and how they have lived their lives. Uh, it, it really taught me the importance of family. The importance of being part of a community. Yeah, yeah I don' ; t know if, if the families had done something different, whether having this strong big family, oh, would have occurred for me and whether I would have benefited from that. But the fact that they all, all these uncles and aunts and you know, we' ; re here, we shared so much together. It taught me how to live. You know, I' ; m grateful for that. You know, I can' ; t say that it, maybe this is being selfish, I can' ; t say that it was a bad thing for me. AT: 50:17 If you could leave your children and grandchildren, any kind of message or legacy, what would you want to leave them with? What do you want them to know? GY: 50:42 Um, I want them to understand the legacy of the family, where they came from, and then let them find their own way. Another Speaker: 51:08 I guess, but maybe it' ; s kind of irrelevant. I was just thinking about more maybe like a broader question for you is just what have been some of the most meaningful conversations that you' ; ve ever had with who and what are they? GY: 51:29 Regarding? AT: 51:31 Just in life? It doesn' ; t have to specifically be Japanese American, just out of curiosity, what are the conversations that have stuck with you? GY: 51:44 Well, I mentioned one person, Yosh Sakai, we used to spend a lot of time together because we would make noodles together for 25 years and so there was many a day spent in the kitchen where we would just chat it. He really was an inspiration to me. So the time I spent with him. Uh, the time I spent with my father, he was a, a different kind of character, but he knew about everything. And so, you know, after I got over fighting with him, we became buddies and I appreciated him. I appreciated, uh, how he lived life. My mother was not much of a talker, so we spend time sitting together and there are others, others I can' ; t think of right now because, uh, you know, I' ; ll grab information from anybody [I' ; m listening to, chat with them]. Another Speaker: 53:26 Okay, great. AT: 53:29 Is there anything that you' ; d like to add or that we might' ; ve missed? GY: 53:34 I don' ; t think we missed a thing. I, I appreciate the opportunity. You might have to do a lot of editing. Another Speaker: 53:48 No that was good, thank you so much for, for coming in and speaking with us. We really appreciate it. GY: 53:53 Thank you. Copyright held by the Japanese American Service Committee, Chicago, Illinois. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from the Japanese American Service Committee Legacy Center. 0 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=YamagiwaGary20171011.xml YamagiwaGary20171011.xml http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/collections/show/1 http://digitalcollections.jasc-chicago.org/omeka/find?tags=Series%3A+Then+They+Came+for+Me& ; layout=1
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Series: Then They Came for Me